Sitting of 14 December 1961

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
MESSAGES FROM THE QUEEN

  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN (RETURN FROM WEST AFRICA)
  The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSE-HOLD reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:
  I thank you for your Loyal and affectionate greetings on my return from my visit to West Africa. The enthusiastic welcome which my Husband and I received from the Commonwealth member countries of Ghana and Sierra Leone, from the Gambia, and from Liberia and Senegal, touched us deeply.
  We were both moved and delighted to see for ourselves something of the great and diverse developments which are taking place in these countries. We were also happy to note the degree to which my people in the United Kingdom are contributing to this development.

SIERRA LEONE (GIFT OF A MACE)
The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSE-HOLD reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:
I have received your Address praying that I will give directions for the presentation on behalf of your House of a Mace to the House of Representatives of Sierra Leone, and assuring me that you will make good the expenses attending the same.
It gave me the greatest pleasure to learn that your House desires to make such a presentation and I will gladly give directions for carrying your proposal into effect.

SUMMER TIME
The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSE-HOLD reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:
I have received your Address praying that the Summer Time (1962) Order, 1961, be made in the form of the Draft laid before Parliament in pursuance of the provisions of Section 2 of the Summer Time Act, 1947.
I will comply with your request.

PRIVATE BUSINESS
  ARGYLL COUNTY COUNCIL (SCALASAIG PIER, ETC.) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Transactions in Seeds (Committee's Report)
    Mr. Kimballasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he proposes to introduce legislation implementing the Report by the Committee on Transactions in Seeds in favour of protection for plant breeders' rights, in view of the fact that the British agricultural industry is being deprived of important new seed varieties.
    Mr. B. Harrisonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will introduce legislation to implement the recommendations of the second Report of the Committee on Transactions in Seeds.
    The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Christopher Soames): The Government have given detailed consideration to the proposals of the Committee on Transactions in Seeds concerning plant breeders' rights and also to the Committee's earlier proposals concerning seeds, and have decided to accept and give effect to most of the Committee's recommendations on these subjects. I recognise that in due course legislation will be involved and we are making plans for this.
    Mr. Kimball: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his Answer will give great pleasure to all the interests concerned who are extremely grateful for the way his Department has expedited this reply? Could my right hon. Friend say when he expects to sign the International Convention for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants which five European countries have now signed? Is he aware that until we sign the Convention there is grave danger that our plant breeders will he deprived of new varieties which are being developed by countries which will be reluctant to release them to countries where there are no royalty arrangements?
    Mr. Soames: I take the point made by my hon. Friend. Now that we have decided to go forward with this we have to see how it fits in with the Convention. If it fits in, it is something which we might well be able to decide to do in the future.
    Mr. Harrison: Cannot my hon. Friend announce a date from which it would be possible retrospectively to patent plant breeders' rights? A number of new varieties will be held up until legislation is passed.
    Mr. Soames: No, Sir. I am afraid that I could not do that today.

    Bread (Wheat Subsidy)
    Mr. Farrasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food by how much the price of a home-grown loaf would be increased if the wheat subsidy were abolished and the full cost charged.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. W. M. F. Vane): The Government guarantee is designed to maintain producers' returns for their wheat. If the guarantee were abolished, home production would be likely to fall heavily and the gap would be filled by imports. Very little bread made entirely from home-grown wheat is sold in this country and it would be difficult to make any worthwhile estimate of the ultimate effect of such a change on the price of bread. In practice millers' bread flour grists contain only about 20 per cent. of home-grown wheat on average.
    Mr. Farr: While appreciating that reply and thanking my hon. Friend for it, may I ask whether it is a fact that, if the subsidy were to be abolished, the price of a home-grown loaf would go up by about 3d. or 4d.? Does he fully appreciate the great value to the housewife of the subsidy on wheat?
    Mr. Vane: I have not worked out the arithmetic in the same way as has my hon. Friend, so I should not like to comment on that figure. It is true that, on the whole, the support system works out to the advantage of the consumers as well as the producers.
    Mr. Lipton: Although the Minister is already in very serious trouble with the Treasury because of his £65 million Supplementary Estimate, is it not also a fact that, when the new bread and flour regulations come into force some time next year, the price of better quality bread and flour is likely to be increased?
    Mr. Vane: Better quality articles generally tend to be more costly than those of less good quality. But we had better wait until the Order comes into operation before we become too precise.

    Agricultural Support
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what he expects the total cost of agricultural support to be during the current year.
    Mr. Peart: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Before the Minister answers this Question, may I say that I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is to make a major statement on price support, and that the major Supplementary Estimate will be nearly £80 million? Is it possible, through you, to plead with the Minister to defer his Answer until the end of Questions, when he could make it in the form of a statement?
    Mr. Speaker: I do not know anything about this. I cannot help the hon. Gentleman, but no doubt what he has said will have been heard.
    Mr. Peart: Will the Minister respond to my request?
    Mr. Soames: As I was first for Questions today, which coincided with the

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    date on which we were publishing this Supplementary Estimate, and as this Question was bound to be reached, I thought that this was the proper moment to inform the House.
    Mr. Morris: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is a very serious matter. Many of us will want to ask supplementary questions. Surely, it is better that a major statement like this should be made at the end of Question Time so that all those interested may have an opportunity to ask questions?
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order for me. I do not control these matters unless an application is made to me.
    Mr. Woodburn: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not within your province to try to protect other hon. Members who have questions on the Order Paper? Assuming for the moment that Question No. 3 occupied the whole of Question Time, would not that be a great disservice to the House?
    Mr. Speaker: At present it is points of order that are taking up the time. I do not know the length of the statement. I have no reason to suppose that it would necessarily be lengthy.
    Mr. Hoy: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The statement will include reference to a Supplementary Estimate of £13 million for which not the Minister of Agriculture but the Secretary of State for Scotland is responsible.
    Mr. Speaker: I do not follow why that is thought to be a point of order for me.
    Mr. Peart: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is a very important House of Commons matter, and the danger is that, if the Minister replies in this way, the people in the country will imagine or believe that he is trying to evade major criticism on the Floor of the House.
    Mr. Speaker: That cannot conceivably be a point of order. The inferences are hypothetical.
    Mr. Soames: I must make it clear that there is no question of trying to evade anything. When a Question stands on the Order Paper, one answers it. I will now make my reply to Question No. 3.
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    The total cost of agricultural support for the United Kingdom for the present financial year is now estimated to be £344·7 million. This is £78·0 million in excess of the original Estimate, and Supplementary Estimates covering that amount have been published today.
    The principal cause of the excess is the increase in the cost of implementing the price guarantees for livestock amounting to £35·3 million for cattle, £13·6 million for sheep and £17·9 million for pigs. As the House will be aware, owing to a combination of factors, wholesale prices for each of these commodities have fallen greatly below expectation over the course of the year. The situation in this respect is clearly exceptional. The amount of the additional cost to the exchequer is a matter for serious concern, which we shall be bound to take fully into account in the course of next year's Price Review.
    Mr. Ridley: These are indeed very serious figures. Is my right hon. Friend aware that if Members opposite had wished to know them they could have put Questions down themselves? In view of the great danger that this will occur in future years, and in the interests both of protecting the farmers' standard of living and the taxpayers, is my right hon. Friend working out new arrangements and a totally new system which might have the effect of perhaps bringing in a tariff form of protection in some sectors but of avoiding this situation happening again in future?
    Mr. Soames: There were very exceptional circumstances this year, beginning in the spring, when a much increased number of cattle came forward from the spring flush of grass. This number was much greater than that which the market was accustomed to handling, and it had the effect of dropping wholesale prices very considerably.
    Later, in the summer, when beef prices should have recovered, the crop of lambs from our ewe flock was infinitely higher than the average we would normally expect, owing to the exceptionally good spring and summer. The amount of lamb coming on to the market was, therefore, much in excess of what is customary, which had the effect of dragging the market down still further. When it was beginning to recover from that

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    situation, imports of bacon from Denmark increased more than had been expected, and the pig market was also affected. It has frequently happened in the past that individual fatstock items have increased to this sort of amount, but never before has it happened for all three in the same year.
    As for the future, given that, on the one hand we do not alter our trade arrangements with exporting countries, and, on the other hand, that we hold to our pledges to agriculture within the 1957 Act, there is only limited room for manoeuvre within the ensuing year. But within these limits we will do everything possible, including any action which it may be right to take at the Price Review, and we will also improve marketing arrangements where this can be done.
    Mr. Speaker: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to assist me. By reason of what happened, I am not sure whether or not he said that he was answering other Questions with Question No. 3.
    Mr. Soames: I was answering only Question No. 3, Mr. Speaker.
    Mr. Peart: The right hon. Gentleman's long reply confirms that we should have had it as a statement.
    Is he aware that he has admitted that his Department made a serious miscalculation? That is how this has been accepted. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Of course it has. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it also reflects a breakdown in the policy the Government have pursued and that the system of deficiency payments and the trend away from the 1947 Act have proved to be a major disaster for the agricultural industry?
    Is he further aware that the Government's policy does not mean more for the producer or for the consumer, but that distribution costs are increased. Producer and consumer do not benefit. Is he aware that this policy has failed and that the Government stand condemned?
    Mr. Soames: It is not true that nobody has gained from this except the distributors. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The outturn for this year for expenditure on deficiency payments for fatstock compared with last year will be about £76 million up. In round figures, about £31 million of that will have gone to
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    the farmers for the increased number of cattle coming forward and because of the higher prices received as a result of the increased guarantee at the last Price Review. We reckon that, over the course of the year, the average drop in retail prices—it is obvious that we cannot be so precise as with the first figure—will be about 5½ per cent., or about £35 million to the consumer.
    Mr. Prior: When have the Opposition ever complained about the increase of 10s. in the price of beef in the last Price Review? In the case of beef, will my right hon. Friend, in view of the increased Supplementary Estimate, say whether he can help the marketing of this product? We have a great number of inefficient slaughter-houses, which are operating in such a way that they are unable to make use of the cheaper cuts of meat which the butchers have been unable to sell this year. Should not my right hon. Friend now take more steps to encourage co-ordination in meat marketing?
    Mr. Soames: I am aware of these difficulties in marketing and we are paying attention to them, but we can operate in only a limited field.
    Mr. Darling: I did not follow the calculations the right hon. Gentleman gave to us and I do not believe anybody else did. Assuming that he is correct and that £34 million is going to the pockets of the farmers—which I doubt—where has the other £45 million gone? The right hon. Gentleman says that retail prices have been reduced by part of that amount, but he still ends up with £10 million. I do not believe that the customers have had that reduction. Where has this £10 million gone?
    Mr. Soames: There is no argument where the farmers are concerned. There has been the increased guaranteed price, and we know that £31 million has gone to the farmers. That is definite. It is harder to estimate the consumer benefit but, on the basis of a 5½ per cent. reduction in retail prices, it comes to £35 million. That leaves £10 million for the distributive trades, which have handled a very considerably increased quantity of home-killed beef and mutton this year.
    Mr. Bullard: Does my right hon. Friend agree that, despite the very

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    heavy cost of this, the surveys conducted by his Department and by other authorities do not show that beef production has been all that profitable? Do they not show that the price allowed in the Price Review was a true reflection of the very great increase in costs that has taken place in the production of beef?
    Mr. Soames: I agree with my hon. Friend. The figures available to us at the time of the last Review showed a very considerable fall-off in the number of calves being retained for beef. We thought it right to give this extra incentive towards the retaining of a larger number of calves.
    Mr. Wade: Can the right hon. Gentleman be more explicit about the extent to which this very large subsidy has been reflected in retail prices? Is he referring to meat in the shops? Is the figure of 5½ per cent. reached in comparison with previous years? Can he tell us the total amount which it is alleged the consumer has gained?
    Mr. Soames: The hon. Gentleman will realise that this is inevitably a somewhat speculative figure. [Hon. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is estimated over a year which is not yet finished. It is for the fatstock year from April to April. It is our belief, however, that the average fall in retail prices on all meat is in the neighbourhood of 5½ per cent. We calculate that that represents a saving to the consumer of about £35 million as compared with last year.
    Sir A. Hurd: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it is a matter for satisfaction that Government policy has resulted in this increase of good quality home-produced beef? If we are to have more home-produced beef, is it not inevitable that we will have to pay more for it, including the extra 10s. a cwt. in this year's Price Review? Is he surprised by the additional figure for beef?
    Mr. Soames: What has surprised us in this respect is that a comparatively small increase in beef coming on to the market should have brought about such a considerable drop in the wholesale price. It is that fact for which we did not allow in the Estimates.
    Mr. Woodburn: In view of the experience this year, is the right hon.
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    Gentleman prepared to go into the question of finding a more sensible way of buying beef from the farmers and selling it to the general public? Is not the present marketing a pure gamble with many farmers, especially the small farmers? They do not benefit, and the public do not get the benefit of cheaper meat.
    Mr. Soames: It is not our present intention to enter into State trading with meat.

    Barley and Oats (Deficiency Payments)
    Sir J. Duncanasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, what is the amount of interim deficiency acreage payments on barley and oats which he intends to pay; and when he expects to pay them.
    Mr. Peartasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what estimate he has made of the interim deficiency acreage payments on barley and oats.
    Mr. Vane: Advances of deficiency payments for the cereal year 1961–62 will be made at the rate of £6 10s. an acre for barley and £5 an acre for oats and mixed corn. Advances for barley will be subject to a deduction of 15s. per ton for deliveries during the period from 1st July to 31st October in accordance with the arrangements which my right hon. Friend announced in the House on 17th May last. Payments will start at the beginning of January and will be completed as quickly as possible. The total advances will amount to about £34 million.
    Sir J. Duncan: May I take it from those figures that the figure of £34 million is included in the Supplementary Estimate, totalling £344 million, which was published today?
    Mr. Vane: The greater part of the £34 million arises in the original Estimate. Only a small part of it is covered by the Supplementary Estimate.
    Mr. Peart: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Question of his hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) is put in view of the Supplementary Estimate? As the figures are broken down for England and Wales,

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    ought there not to be a Scottish Minister present to answer? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, in view of his right hon. Friend's previous reply and the Government's whole approach, we shall vigorously press this matter in debate when we return after the Christmas Recess?

    Hill Cow Subsidy (Cornwall)
    Mr. Scott-Hopkinsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food under what authority he is withdrawing the Hill Cow Subsidy from eighty-one farmers in Cornwall who were receiving the subsidy in 1960–61; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Soames: This subsidy is being withdrawn because the land on which these farmers keep their cows can no longer be regarded as hill land as defined in the Hill Cattle (Breeding Herds) (England and Wales) Scheme, 1953.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is tremendous resentment against his decision to withdraw this subsidy? Does he not agree that year by year to change the policy towards agriculture in the difficult circumstances surrounding farming is not in the best interests of agriculture, or of the nation's economy?
    Mr. Soames: I am aware that this decision is regretted by those concerned, but when I was advised that the land in question did not fall within the meaning of the Act, I had no alternative to withdrawing the subsidy.

    Milk Price Structure
    Mr. Scott-Hopkinsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement concerning the recent breakdown in talks about a new price structure for liquid milk.
    Mr. Morrisasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the failure of the Milk Marketing Board and the unions to agree on a two-tier price solution for the milk industry.
    Mr. Soames: I accept the conclusion of the Joint Committee of the Farmers'
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    Unions and Milk Marketing Boards that no alternative to the present pooling system has been evolved which would be acceptable to the industry at the present time. I am sure that the inquiry has been worth while in that it has brought about a fuller appreciation of the problem, and I have welcomed the Chairman's indication that it requires the continuing attention of the industry.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: In view of my right hon. Friend's previous remarks on this subject, has he any further plans for some method of restricting the production of liquid milk in this country?
    Mr. Soames: No, Sir. What was said in the White Paper when the last Price Review was published was that if the scheme did not prove feasible, we should have to reconsider the increase given at the last Review.
    Mr. Morris: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, according to his Ministry's figures issued the week before last, the average profits of dairy farmers for the last year for which figures are available went down by 19 per cent.? What plans does he now have to regulate liquid milk production in this country and to save the farmers from further under-recoupment from rising production and lower returns? Will he place in the Library, or publish as a White Paper, the report of the deliberations of the committee and the advice and visitations tendered to it?
    Mr. Soames: It was for the industry to decide whether it wished to continue—with the clear warning inherent in the White Paper—with the present system, or to have a two-tier price system. This was a private investigation by the industry and it would not be right to publish the deliberations as a White Paper.
    Mr. Mackie: Why is the right hon. Gentleman so concerned about an increase in milk production when the subsidy is so small? Ought he not to be more concerned about beef production, for which he is giving away another £35 million?
    Mr. Soames: These are entirely different situations, as the hon. Gentleman well knows. The sources from which the industries get their returns are totally different.

    Warbles (Systemic Insecticides)
    Sir A. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what progress has been made this year in testing systemic insecticides and other treatments to deal with warbles in cattle; and if he is planning to start a national campaign next year to eliminate this pest which causes heavy losses to farmers and the leather trade.
    Mr. Vane: Trials have been carried out this year with a comparatively new systemic dressing and a single application gave satisfactory results against warbles. We are at present considering our future action against this pest.
    Sir A. Hurd: Will my hon. Friend press on with this task? We have had the warble fly Order, or something of the kind, for many years, but we do not seem to get on top of this pest. Will he try by next spring to get a rather better and more forceful policy?
    Mr. Vane: The new chemical developments may help. Derris dust sprayed on to the backs of cattle has long given only incomplete results.
    Mr. Wise: Has not a great deal of the difficulty arisen because present regulations for dealing with the pest have not been observed and have fallen into disuse? Will not the same thing happen with the new insecticides unless more rigorous steps are taken to see that the regulations are observed?
    Mr. Vane: That is one of the things which we are considering, because the present regulations are not entirely satisfactory, especially in the light of these chemical developments.

    Charollais Bulls
    Sir J. Duncanasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he is taking to eliminate all danger to British livestock arising from the recent outbreaks of disease in recently imported Charollais bulls.
    Mr. Wadeasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what precautions were taken to test the health and condition of the Charollais bulls before purchase; and whether his Departmental scientists made the necessary tests.
    Mr. Gibson-Wattasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if, in view of the serious outbreak of disease in the Charollais bulls under the control of his Department, he will cause the bulls to be destroyed.
    Mr. Kimballasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what have been the results of the study of the treatment of bovine leptospirosis; and if he is satisfied that animals which have recovered from the disease are no longer carriers of it.
    Mr. MacArthurasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the extent of bovine leptospirosis infection among the Charollais bulls recently imported; how many bulls have been slaughtered and what action he is taking to prevent the spread of leptospira in matter excreted by the bulls.
    Sir A. Hurdasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will state the results of the veterinary tests made on the Charollais bulls recently imported on Government account from France; whether leptospirosis could have been diagnosed before the bulls were shipped from France; and whether he is fully satisfied that the extended period of quarantine now imposed on the surviving bulls in this country will ensure that they cannot be found later on to be carriers of this or some other disease from which we are free in Britain.
    Sir C. Thornton-Kemsleyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in view of the damage to the United Kingdom's export trade in pedigree beef cattle, as well as to the industry as a whole, from the threat of leptospirosis, with which three of the imported Charollais bulls were found to be suffering, he will order the immediate return to France of the remaining twenty-seven animals.
    Mr. Soames: Before these bulls were purchased, tests for leptospirosis and other diseases were carried out by the French veterinary services, and with permission I will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT particulars of the requirements which we laid down for these tests.
    Further tests were conducted when the bulls were in quarantine in this country. As a result of our tests, three bulls

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    reacted to a type of leptospira. This organism cannot be successfully eliminated by treatment with vaccines or antibiotics, and animals which have apparently recovered may remain as carriers. For this reason the three reactor bulls have been destroyed. This removes the known source of possible infection and there is therefore no need at present to consider slaughtering the remaining bulls.
    Further tests have been and will continue to be carried out to make sure that the disease has not been transmitted to the other animals.
    No manure from any of the animals has left the quarantine station since they arrived. Generous disinfection has been carried out and in any event the organism survives only for a short time in urine. There is no risk of the disease spreading from the quarantine station while the animals are there. None of the animals will he released from quarantine until my veterinary advisers have assured me that they are free from disease.
    Sir J. Duncan: Is it not better to send these bulls back to France to avoid any possible risk?
    Secondly, will my right hon. Friend regard this as an object lesson, in case we join the Common Market, of the real danger to animal health, unless there are cast-iron safeguards?
    Mr. Soames: An important feature of the arrangements which will have to be made if we join the Common Market will be proper arrangements for safeguarding animal health in this country. I cannot agree with my hon. Friend about the future of these animals. They were kept in quarantine because of this very danger. We appreciated it when we brought them over. They will remain in quarantine while there is any danger. But there is no reason whatsoever why they should not be released from quarantine and go to do the job for which they came over here once there is no further risk of disease.
    Mr. Wade: I understand that tests were made by the Ministry's own veterinary officers. Is that the normal procedure and is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that precautions are adequate?
    Mr. Soames: Yes, Sir. The tests in France were made by the French veterinary service, which is the customary practice of the exporting country. Tests in this country were made by our own veterinary service and will be continued until we are assured that there is no danger.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: Would it not have been better if this experiment had never taken place, in view of the advice given to my right hon. Friend now that it has happened? How can my right hon. Friend be certain that the manure and urine, in which the disease remains for several years, can be completely restricted and that the disease will not spread?
    Mr. Soames: As I said, none of the manure has been allowed to leave the station since the animals came here. That is just the sort of eventuality which shows the immense pains which the veterinary service has taken to ensure that all precautions were taken. I cannot agree that it would have been better not to have made the importation. Of course there is risk of disease when importing cattle. It was always there and it was inherent in the import. The Committee which went into this matter in great detail found that there was a prima facie case for importing these animals to cross them with our dairy herds, with considerable benefit to the dairy industry in the long run.
    Mr. Kimball: Would it not have been better if he had sent Ayrshire cattle to France rather than bringing these animals here?
    Mr. Soames: No, Sir. Part of the experiment was to be able to assess the type of meat produced by these cattle and to see how it sold on the market here at home.
    Mr. MacArthur: Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the leptospira in bovine leptospirosis can be transmitted in semen? In view of the uncertainty that still exists about the precise nature of this disease, will he make certain that the quarantine periods are extended so that there is no danger whatever of the disease being transmitted through artificial insemination from the bulls?
    Mr. Soames: My hon. Friend may rest absolutely assured about that.
    Mr. B. Harrison: Will my right hon. Friend now issue another order so that, after suitable veterinary examination, replacement bulls can be brought into this country?
    Mr. Soames: I should like to consider that later when these bulls are let out from quarantine and we can study the situation as a whole.
    Mr. Morris: Could this disease have been discovered in France before the bulls came here?
    Mr. Soames: They were tested in France and the tests were negative.
    Mr. Mackie: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that more than 700 of these bulls have been exported from France in the last year, and that not one went down in this test? Is he satisfied that there was not a false reaction? Were blood samples taken before slaughtering just to check that, for it is rather important? Is he aware that when Danish Reds came to this country, there was no trouble from the breed societies? Were those cattle tested for leptospirosis and is that disease known in Denmark? Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will not yield to the pressure from the breed societies? Will he assure the House that he will not allow the breed societies in any way to sway him from carrying out this most important experiment, even though only a small number of bulls survive the quarantine period?
    Mr. Soames: The cattle imported from Denmark were tested in Denmark for leptospirosis. However, it does not exist in Denmark as a disease in cattle. As for being swayed, we intend to continue with our plans as hitherto. It is unfortunate that four bulls were lost in this way.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.
    Following is the information:
    Before the animals were permitted entry to this country, the French veterinary authorities were required to certify

    (a) that at the time of entry of the cattle into quarantine in France the whole of France was free from blue tongue disease,

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    (b) that the cattle were drawn from premises on which Johne's disease is not known to exist,

    (c) that within 14 days before movement into quarantine at Brest the animals had passed tests for tuberculosis, brucellosis and leptospirosis,

    (d) that leptospirosis had not been diagnosed in the herd of origin in the previous 12 months.

    (e) that during the 3 months immediately prior to the removal of the cattle to the assembly point, no case of foot-and-mouth disease had existed within 16 kilometres of the place from which the cattle were drawn.

    (f) that foot-and-mouth disease does not exist, and had not existed during the previous six months on the premises from which the cattle were drawn, and that the cattle offered for purchase had not been affected with or vaccinated against foot-and-mouth disease.

    (g) that before movement from the farm the animals showed no evidence of being affected with foot-and-mouth disease.

    (h) that the cattle were moved by specially disinfected road vehicles to the assembly point without approaching within 16 kilometres of premises where foot-and-mouth disease had occurred within three months prior to movement.

    (j) that each assembly point was specially cleansed and disinfected before the arrival of the cattle offered for purchase and that during the whole period of assembly no other cattle, sheep, pigs or goats were present and that in the previous three months no case of foot-and-mouth disease had occurred within 16 kilometres of the assembly point.

    (k) that inspection of all animals at each assembly point showed no clinical evidence of foot-and-mouth disease.

    (l) that the cattle were detained in the quarantine station at Brest for at least 28 days prior to shipment to Great Britain and during that period were under regular veterinary supervision and remained healthy and at the time of shipment showed no clinical signs of any contagious, infectious or parasitic disease affecting cattle.

    (m) that all feed used in the quarantine station at Brest was of British origin.

    (n) that the animals were moved from the quarantine station at the end of the quarantine period direct by specially disinfected road vehicle to the aircraft for export.

    Mr. MacArthurasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what consultations he has had with the Parliamentary Secretary for Science about the relationship between the leptospira of bovine leptospirosis and the leptospira of rat leptospirosis which is the cause of Weil's disease in man.
    Mr. Soames: The leptospira to which the three bulls have reacted is a species

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    distinct from that which causes Weil's disease in man
    The Agricultural Research Council for which my noble Friend the Minister for Science is responsible, has been consulted and supports this finding.

    Food Flying Squads
    Mr. Wadeasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether the Food Flying Squads are examined regularly for road worthiness; and if the food supplies are checked in readines for an emergency.
    Mr. Vane: The vehicles of the Food Flying Squads are examined regularly for road worthiness. The squads do not hold stocks of food but have arrangements with local tradesmen to draw emergency supplies at any time of the day or night.
    Mr. Wade: I hope that the emergency will not arise, but does the Minister agree that if we are to have any Civil Defence it is essential that those concerned should he properly equipped and available at short notice? Is the Minister satisfied that there are sufficient volunteers on the spot available at short notice? Secondly, with regard to stocks, is he satisfied that there are enough properly balanced stocks available if the need should arise?
    Mr. Vane: The Question referred primarily to vehicles. Civil Defence would always welcome further recruits to its ranks. With regard to stocks for the sort of emergencies which the hon. Gentleman has in mind, there are ample supplies in wholesale channels, and there would be no question of being unable to draw supplies. This has been borne out by recent quite large-scale exercises which have been taking place in different parts of the country, including the hon. Gentleman's county.

    French Minister of Agriculture (Talks)
    Mr. Morrisasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on his official talks with the French Minister of Agriculture.
    Mr. Soames: The French Minister of Agriculture accepted a private invitation to spend a week-end at my home. His visit was not official and our talks were informal.
    Mr. Morris: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he will resist any pleas by the French Government to modify the anti-dumping measures for butter already announced? Will he consult the President of the Board of Trade about the problem of dried milk, which the Milk Marketing Board complains is coming into this country at less than half the price at which it is being sold in the country of origin?
    Mr. Soames: Both these matters are the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.

    Pyrethrum
    Mrs. Butlerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what research has been undertaken by his Department into the effectiveness of pyrethrum as a pesticide.
    Mr. Vane: Fundamental research of this type is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Science Research into the insecticidal and chemical properties of pyrethrum has been in progress for many years at Rothamsted Experimental Station and the Pest Infestation Laboratory of the Agricultural Research Council and recently, also, at the Tropical Products Institute of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. This Ministry is being kept in close touch with all this work.
    Mrs. Butler: Does the Minister realise that pyrethrum is acknowledged by all authorities to be one of the most effective pesticides known? Is he aware that his replies to my Question of 6th November were widely reported and may do great harm to the pyrethrum industry which is one of the cornerstones of Kenya's economic policy, a country which we are all very anxious to help at the present time? Is the Minister aware that it has the additional virtue of being an insecticide which is completely harmless to warm-blooded animals? Will he say something to remedy the effect of his remarks on 6th November?
    Mr. Vane: I do not think that the remarks I made on the previous occasion need have done any harm at all, because every one knows that pyrethrum is a potent insecticide with a rapid paralysing action and highly toxic to a wide range of insects. It also is of low mammalian

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    toxicity and is safe to use on foodstuffs and in the house. One of the difficulties is that it is not as persistent as some other insecticides, and therefore it can be at a disadvantage in that regard for certain uses.

    Food Exports to West Germany
    Mr. Bullardasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware of the difficulty experienced by firms wishing, to create an export trade in food products to West Germany arising out of the German requirements as regards inspection; and whether he will provide facilities for a type of inspection that would meet the German regulations, if necessary at the expense of the firm concerned.
    Mr. Soames: The West German Government have recently made new meat inspection regulations which create difficulties for firms wishing to export meat and meat products from this country. We are about to discuss the matter with the West German Government with a view to seeing what arrangements would be necessary in order to comply with the regulations.
    Mr. Bullard: Will my right hon. Friend do all he can to deal with this anomaly? We receive food produce from all over the world, yet, when a firm such as the one in my constituency wants to export, it comes up against these punitive Regulations. This firm, Campbell Soups, has received a letter from my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade urging it go in for exports. Will he do something to resolve this difficult position in which our food exporters are placed?
    Mr. Soames: We have been collecting all the necessary information in recent weeks and our representative in Bonn will approach the German Government before Christmas.

    Fowl Pest (Compensation)
    Mr. Priorasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how many disputes in cases of fowl pest compensation have been heard by administrative tribunals in 1961; and how much money was claimed and paid in compensation, respectively.
    Mr. Vane: Five such cases have been heard by arbitrators during 1961: the total of the valuations in dispute was £222,500. The arbitrators' awards have so far been made only in two of these cases.
    Mr. Prior: Can my hon. Friend say whether the tribunals were held in public? Is he aware of the great public concern that exists over the whole question of compensation for fowl pest? A great many people suspect that there are some rackets being run. Would it not be far better in the circumstances, from everyone's point of view, if these tribunals were held in public so that both the farmers and the public would know that everything was fair and above board?
    Mr. Vane: There is, naturally, concern when large sums of money are being arbitrated. There is a great deal of misconception since this is agreeing the value of property—not diseased birds but sound property—which has been taken from individuals because it is supposed that they might be contacts of infectious disease. The arbitrations are all carried out in accordance with the Arbitration Act, 1950, and, as I told the hon. Gentleman the other day, I cannot see any reason why the procedure for the hearing of these cases should diverge from the accepted practice.
    Mr. Bullard: Is not the trouble that large sums must be paid to people who keep birds in very large—almost excessively large—concentrations? When the Plant Committee reports, will my hon. Friend take cognisance of the fact that this keeping of birds in huge concentrations leads to trouble, not only with the disease but with payments as well?
    Mr. Vane: I will take cognisance of everything in the Plant Committee's report which, we hope, we will be receiving shortly.

    Farm Buildings (Grants and Subsidies)
    Mr. Benceasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the total cost of farm buildings attracting grants or subsidies for the year 1959–60; what were the total grants and subsidies paid; and what steps are being taken to ensure that grants or subsidies are paid only to those whose

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    income is inadequate to meet the present cost of building.
    Mr. Soames: In the year ended 31st March, 1960, work on farm buildings costing £17·2 million was assisted under the Farm Improvement Scheme or the Hill Farming and Livestock Rearing Acts in the United Kingdom. Payments of grant totalled £5·9 million. These grants are designed to promote efficiency and no distinction is drawn in regard to the income of the applicant.
    Mr. Bence: Is that not a really shocking answer—35 per cent. subsidy to farmers? Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted his right hon. Friends to see if it is possible to adopt a system of grants and subsidies based upon the income of the people getting the subsidies such as his hon. Friends want applied to other members of the community who are getting subsidies?
    Mr. Soames: This grant is for the land owner and not for the land occupier. It is designed to increase the productivity and efficiency of farming. More than any single Act that has been passed through this House in recent years the Farm Improvement Scheme has done more than anything else to bring about the fact that, although costs have gone up in the last six years to the tune of about £162 million, the value of grants has increased only by about £56 million, which means that agriculture, by improved efficiency, has itself been able to take up £100 million.
    Mr. Peart: How can the Minister argue that the Farm Improvement Scheme has improved farm conditions when incomes of small farmers have decreased over the last five years?
    Mr. Soames: This is across the whole board and throughout the whole country. I was referring to 1955–61. Certainly, the situation vis-à-vis farmers' incomes would not be nearly as good today had it not been for the Farm Improvement Scheme.

  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY (NEGOTIATIONS)
  Mr. Turtonasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the assurance he gave the House on 31st July, 1961, that no agreement would be
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  entered into with the European Economic Community until after approval by this House and full consultation with the Commonwealth, he will seek to convene at an early date a Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference to discuss the progress of the negotiations.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I would remind my right hon. Friend that in the debate on 31st July I said that, if it were thought desirable to have a meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers at the right moment, when the negotiations had reached a certain stage before any final decision were put before Parliament, I would be the first to welcome such a meeting. The negotiations have not reached a point at which it would be useful to suggest a meeting of Prime Ministers. But of course we are, and shall remain, in the closest touch with other Commonwealth Governments.
  Mr. Turton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is considerable apprehension lest we slip into the Common Market without having adequate time for consideration both by the Commonwealth and by the British electorate? Can he give an assurance that the interval between the end of the negotiations and the entry into the Common Market will be at least six months?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I could not give that precise assurance. But on this question which is asked, I repeat that at the right moment, if there is a general wish—that is what I said—it would be quite desirable to have a meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers. On the first part of my right hon. Friend's supplementary question, I think that he rather exaggerates the ease with which one can slip into the Common Market.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Is it not clear that there is a powerful case for convening a Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference in the spring? Is it not the case that quite frequently such conferences do take place, and that in 1962, quite apart from the Common Market, there are other issues of immense importance to the Commonwealth—the immigration question and the question of the Congo—which it is most desirable that the Commonwealth Ministers should discuss together?
  The Prime Minister: That is quite another question. We have always in mind the question of when it is possible to arrange a conference. The right hon. Gentleman will recognise that we have now to try to suit the convenience of quite a large number of Prime Ministers.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I appreciate that. Nevertheless, is it not desirable that Her Majesty's Government should now take soundings among the Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth with a view to a conference of the kind suggested taking place, say, in the spring of next year?
  The Prime Minister: That was a general proposition. On the point to which this Question relates, I think that it must depend on the state of the negotiations.
  Sir C. Osborne: Will my right hon. Friend ask the Commonwealth Governments who fear our joining the Common Market whether they will reduce their tariffs against our goods so as to provide for us a Commonwealth Common Market?
  The Prime Minister: That hardly arises on this Question. I repeat that if such a conference were to be valuable, it could be so only when the negotiations had reached a certain stage.
  Mr. Bellenger: Will the Prime Minister, while consulting the Commonwealth countries at all points in these negotiations, bear in mind that the ultimate decision is for the British Parliament of this country?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.

  UNITED NATIONS (THE CONGO)
  Mr. Stonehouseasked the Prime Minister what communication he has received from the Prime Minister of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland concerning the policy of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the United Nations and Katanga.
  The Prime Minister: It is the normal practice for the Government of the Federation and the British Government to exchange views on matters of common concern. But, as the House will know, it is not our practice to publish the contents of such communications.
  Mr. Stonehouse: But is not the Prime Minister aware that the Monckton Corn-mission, which he appointed, confirmed that Sir Roy Welensky had no constitutional authority in regard to foreign affairs? In view of that, may I ask the Prime Minister whether Sir Roy Welensky asked him before a statement was issued last Sunday, which was strongly critical of the United Nations, and also whether the Prime Minister was asked before Sir Roy Welensky gave direct political assistance to Tshombe in direct violation of the Security Council resolution of 24th November?
  The Prime Minister: The opposite is the case. On the contrary, Sir Roy Welensky has played a considerable part in trying to persuade Mr. Tshombe to make his peace with the Central Government. He has at no time taken the view that there should be an independent Katanga. He has helped us considerably in the pressure that we have tried to bring to bear on Mr. Tshombe.
  Mr. Healey: Could the Prime Minister clear up two points? Is it in fact constitutionally proper for the Federal Prime Minister to issue publicly a long attack on the policy of Her Majesty's Government in the Congo and on the policy and personnel of the United Nations in the Congo? Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether Her Majesty's Government are satisfied that there is adequate control over the possible passage of arms from the Federal Territory into Katanga, as reported by United Nations Personnel in the Congo?
  The Prime Minister: It is, of course, very regrettable that anyone should attack the policy of Her Majesty's Government. I think it is really pedantic for the hon. Gentleman to say that the Prime Minister of the Federation, which is so closely a neighbour of what is going on in the Congo, should not be allowed freely to express his views as much as anyone else. That seems to be perfectly reasonable, and no objection should be raised to it.
  Mr. Healey: But will the Prime Minister answer the second part of my supplementary question? Will he, in particular, say whether Sir Roy Welensky has any right to threaten to prevent the transport of United Nations' bombs through the Federal Territory into

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  Katanga for what he publicly states are reasons of foreign policy?
  The Prime Minister: Whether he is right or not he would have no power to do so. With regard to the other part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, the Federal Government have actually been most helpful in trying to prevent the flow of arms through their territory. This is a very long frontier, some 2,000 miles in all, and it is a fairly difficult task to be absolutely secure.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Does not that simply confirm that the foreign policy of the Central African Federation is a matter for Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and that when Sir Roy Welensky refers to international matters he is not speaking for the Federation but is giving his personal views?
  The Prime Minister: That is an interpretation which, I suppose, is strictly constitutional because, certainly, it is a reserved matter, but there is no reason why anyone in a free world cannot express his views.
  Mr. P. Noel-Baker: Does the Prime Minister recall that Sir Roy Welensky said that the record of the United Nations in Katanga is one long succession of deliberate distortions and untruths uttered to suit their own purposes, and that this was particularly directed towards Mr. George Ivan Smith to whose patriotism and reliability as a witness the diplomatic correspondent of The Times paid a high tribute on Monday?
  The Prime Minister: I am asked whether I will prevent or stop Sir Roy Welensky from saying what he wishes. That does not mean that I agree with what he says all the time. In fact, he has often said things with which I wholly disagree.
  Mr. Dugdaleasked the Prime Minister what answer he has made to the communication he has received from Mr. Nehru regarding British obstruction of the United Nations operations in the Congo.
  The Prime Minister: Since the events of last August and September I have exchanged a number of messages with Mr. Nehru about the Congo. It is not
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  our custom to divulge the contents of confidential exchanges.
  Mr. Dugdale: If the right hon. Gentleman will not comment on that letter, would he care to comment on the public statement made by the Ministry of External Affairs official in Delhi saying that they were not at all surprised at the reasons given by Dr. O'Brien for his resignation, because they have had—[Interruption.]
  Hon. Members: Order.
  Sir W. Bromley-Davenport: Sit down.
  Mr. Speaker: I do not understand how there could be Ministerial responsibility here for the observations of the man referred to.
  Mr. Morris: On a point of order. Is it in order for an hon. Gentleman opposite to bark "Sit down"?
  Mr. Speaker: It is not in order for him to bark either sitting down or standing up.

  FEDERAL PRIME MINISTER OF THE WEST INDIES (DISCUSSIONS)
  Mr. Healeyasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his recent discussions with the Federal Prime Minister of the West Indies.
  The Prime Minister: When I heard that Sir Grantley Adams was coming to this country, I invited him to come and see me.
  Mr. Healey: While thanking the Prime Minister for that information, may I ask whether he still maintains, after discussion with Sir Grantley, that there was adequate consultation with the Federal Prime Minister of the West Indies before the Government drafted the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill? In these discussions did he succeed in converting Sir Grantley to his own view that the obligations of this country to those Caribbean peoples who are distinguished by their friendship to Britain and their loyalty to the Commonwealth should take second place to the Prime Minister's need to appease racial prejudice in the Conservative Party?
  The Prime Minister: The character of those questions makes it clear that what the hon. Gentleman wished to do was to get them out but that he did not expect me to answer them. If I were to make a statement about all the conversations I have with people who come to see me, either at their request or at mine, the number of my visitors would have to be very much reduced.
  Mr. Healey: Would the right hon. Gentleman answer the first part of the supplementary question. Does he still maintain—[interruption.]—This is a matter of immense importance to the solidarity and survival of the British Commonwealth which hon. Members on this side of the House regard as of major interest to this country and the world. Does the right hon. Gentleman still maintain the view he expressed before meeting Sir Grantley—that there was adequate consultation between Her Majesty's Government and the Federal Government of the West Indies before the drafting of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill?
  The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to or subtract from the statements I made on the subject in the House.
  Sir A. V. Harvey: Can my right hon. Friend confirm that Mr. Eric Williams, the Prime Minister of Trinidad, has made no complaint whatever about the introduction of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill?
  The Prime Minister: That illustrates that people say different things.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business of the House for next week?
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 18TH DECEMBER—Supply [3rd Allotted Day]:
Motion to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair, when a debate will arise on an Opposition Amendment relating to Government Policy on Incomes and Productivity.
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Consideration of the Motions on the White Fish Subsidy (United Kingdom) Scheme, and the White Fish and Herring Subsidies (No. 2) Order.
TUESDAY, 19TH DECEMBER—Further consideration in Committee on the Army Reserve Bill.
WEDNESDAY, 20TH DECEMBER—Debate on Foreign Affairs, with particular reference to Berlin, on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House.
THURSDAY, 21ST DECEMBER—It is proposed that the House should meet at 11 a.m., that Questions be taken until noon, and that the House should adjourn at 5 p.m., until Tuesday, 23rd January.
Mr. Gaitskell: The Leader of the House will recall that he promised a short time ago that we should have a debate on the Report on Local Government in Greater London early in the new year. Can he say whether that will be very soon after we return from the Christmas Recess? Has he any particular date in mind?
Mr. Macleod: No, Sir. I have no particular date in mind. Maps are being published in a day or two which will illustrate the precise possibilities and a great number of discussions will no doubt take place. I shall be glad to consult through the usual channels, but I should have thought that it would suit the convenience of all those concerned if we had a little more time to consider the matter.
Mr. Hirst: Has the attention of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House been drawn to a Motion in my name and the names of several hon. Members asking for a debate on the Egypt (Compensation Agreement)?
[That this House views with the utmost concern the hesitant steps with which Her Majesty's Government endeavour to satisfy claimants for their approved claims, both for Egyptianised property and those arising as a result of desequestration: takes into consideration the fact that after three interim Distribution Orders have been laid before the House, only about one-third of the Compensation Fund has been paid out to its rightful owners; records the dismal fact that large claimants as a

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result of these Orders still have 75 per cent. of their approved claims outstanding; reminds Her Majesty's Government that in addition to the large balances of the Compensation Fund so held, the Prime Minister assured the House on 16th March, 1959, in reference to the Fund of £27½ million made available under the Financial Agreement with the United Arab Republic (Cmnd. 639), that Her Majesty's Government did not exclude a further contribution from public funds: and calls upon Her Majesty's Government to recognise and respect the rights of approved claimants to a fairer and more speedy repayment of their claims and to act accordingly.]
Could he find time for discussion of that subject? If that cannot be done next week, will my right hon. Friend have discussions with his right hon. Friends, for there is grave disquiet over the tedious way in which this matter is being carried out?
Mr. Macleod: There will not be an opportunity next week. There has been an Adjournment debate on this matter and there was also a statement by the Lord Privy Seal, but I shall draw the attention of my right hon. Friend to what my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Mr. Hirst) has said.
Mr. Hector Hughes: May I ask a question about the business for Monday? It will be within the recollection of the right hon. Gentleman that last Thursday I asked him to depart from the shocking practice of always putting the fish course last. Has he considered whether he will provide us with a proper opportunity for a debate on fishing matters instead of bringing them on always at the dead of night?
Mr. Macleod: Monday will be an Opposition day. We are first to discuss incomes and then these Motions. In other words, we are to discuss chips before fish.
Mr. Popplewell: If he cannot provide time next week, will the Leader of the House say when he hopes to provide time to debate a Motion in the names of my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central (Mr. Short), my hon. Friend the Member for Durham (Mr. Grey) and other hon. Members on this side from the North-East, including myself, on the question
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of establishing a Grand Committee to discuss affairs of the North-East in view of the fact that the North-East has the highest unemployment and most serious depopulation problem in England?
[That this House urges Her Majesty's Government to take the necessary steps to establish a Grand Committee for the North, on similar lines to the Welsh Grand Committee, so that the many social and economic problems peculiar to the four northern counties of England may be adequately discussed.]
Mr. Macleod: I have seen that Motion with some interest, but I should need a great deal of convincing that the House would think it wise to balkanise, as it were, our affairs further.
Mr. S. Silverman: With reference to the foreign affairs debate on Wednesday, would the right hon. Gentleman consider this? Having regard to the extreme uncertainty and confusion and ambiguity as to what is Her Majesty's Government's policy with regard to the Berlin issue vis-à-vis our N.A.T.O. allies or the Soviet Union, would it not be very much better, instead of debating the matter at large on a Motion for the Adjournment of the House, for the Government to table a Motion and thus give the House an opportunity of deciding upon it? Then, when the Prime Minister goes to Paris to discuss these matters, he will be armed with the considered and specific judgment of the House of Commons.
Mr. Macleod: The difficulty, as the hon. Member knows very well, is that that would narrow the scope of the debate. That is happening to today's debate as a result of a Government Motion being put down. I should have thought, in view of that, that it is right for next week's debate to take place on as wide as possible a front, on the Motion for the Adjournment.
Mr. D. Smith: Has my right hon. Friend seen a Motion in my name, supported by about 50 hon. Members, on the question of Thames pollution?
[That this House takes note of the report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Pollution of the Tidal Thames, supports its view that there should be express statutory power for the Port of London Authority to impose conditions

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relating to discharges of effluent and urges a determined effort on the part of Her Majesty's Government to improve the general condition of the Thames for the good health and convenience of those who live or work beside it.]
If so, will my right hon. Friend consider providing time for a short debate on that when we resume after the Christmas Recess?
Mr. Macleod: I shall look into that, but it concerns a very recent Report. There is no immediate prospect of a debate on it.
Mr. Hoy: Is the Leader of the House aware that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food told us this afternoon about a proposal which will involve the taxpayer in finding an extra £80 million, but that when he made that statement there was no Scottish Minister present? Will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for a very early debate in which we can discuss this problem?
Mr. Macleod: That does not arise on next week's business.
Mr. Fletcher: As there is no mention of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill in the business for next week, may we take it that the Government have now decided to abandon it?
Mr. Macleod: No, Sir.
Mr. Mellish: May I ask again about Northern Ireland, where there is 8·9 per cent. unemployment and the position has been that way for a long time? When are we to discuss it? Will the right hon. Gentleman take note that there is a study group which is to report, but that none of us will be allowed to see that report? What sort of Parliament is it that will not discuss this part of the United Kingdom? Will the right hon. Gentleman give us an opportunity for a debate soon?
Mr. Macleod: The hon. Member keeps speaking from different places in the House, and complained last week that he keeps getting the same answer.
Mr. Stratton Mills: With reference to the question about Northern Ireland, will my right hon. Friend consider having a debate on the affairs of Bermondsey as, obviously, they are being neglected?
Mr. Mellish: On a point of order—I hope that this is a point of order—may I say that I should be very willing to take part in such a debate.
Mr. Speaker: I hope the hon. Member will learn what is a point of order before he does so.
Mr. C. Pannell: As a matter which will not take up much Parliamentary time, will the Leader of the House consider, after Christmas, again setting up the Accommodation Committee? It was rather badly treated over its last Report, bearing in mind that after Mr. Speaker accepted the Report on behalf of the House the Minister of Works sidetracked the main Report by a question to the Chairman of the Committee rather than calling the Committee together. After being frank with the House, the Committee was shabbily treated by the Government. Is it not time that the members of the Committee were called together to discuss what still is inadequate accommodation for hon. Members?
Mr. Macleod: I undertook last week to have some consultation through the usual channels on these matters. Those considerations have started and are proceeding.
Mr. Hilton: It is a long time since the House had the opportunity of debating agriculture. In view of the very serious statement made by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food this afternoon, about £78 million Supplementary Estimates, may I ask the Leader of the House whether he will consider the question of an early debate on this matter, which we on this side of the House regard as very serious?
Mr. Macleod: It is, obviously, an extremely important matter, but it does not concern next week's business.
Mr. S. Silverman: May I return to next Wednesday's business? Did the Leader of the House not say, earlier, that the foreign affairs debate on Wednesday was to specially refer to Berlin? Is it not a fact that the reason why so many of us pressed the Government to find time before the Recess for a debate on foreign affairs was precisely so that we might discuss the specific issues there, which are now getting so critical? Would it not, therefore, on this situation, be of advantage to limit

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the debate instead of having it too discursive, as it would be likely to be on a Motion for the Adjournment, so that we can get down to understanding what the Government are to say in our names in Paris?
Mr. Macleod: That, of course, is a point of view. Clearly, the opening speeches will concern themselves mainly with Berlin, but I have announced the debate in the conventional form and I understand that, subject to the Ruling of Mr. Speaker and the ordinary prohibitions about reference to legislation and the rest, it will be in order for hon. Members, if they wish, to go wider than that subject.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: Will the Leader of the House tell us when we may expect the Road Traffic Bill from another place?
Mr. Macleod: Not next week.
Mr.:Mackie: As the right hon. Gentleman has twice used the reply that a matter does not refer to next week's business, when does one ask for consideration of a subject if it is not referring to next week's business?
Mr. Macleod: I recommend the hon. Member to try on the first Thursday after the Recess.

THE CONGO
Mr. Speaker: I think that it would be for the convenience of the House if I said that I have selected from the Amendments proposed to the Motion on the Order Paper that standing in the name of the right hon. Member the Leader of the Opposition and other right hon. and hon. Gentlemen.
Sir James Duncan: May I make an appeal to you, Mr. Speaker? This is not a point of order, but I make an appeal that on this occasion, when so many hon. Members want to speak, you should, first, turn a blind eye to more than one Privy Councillor on the back benches on either side, and, secondly, appeal to all hon. Members who catch your eye to make very short speeches so that as many can be included in this debate as is possible. I ask this not in my own interest, because I do not myself want to speak.
Mr. Speaker: I feel sure that the whole House would accept the wisdom of the hon. Member's suggestion. I do not know yet with how many Privy Councillors I am threatened.
3.45 p.m.
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Edward Heath): I beg to move,
That this House supports the action of Her Majesty's Government in making a formal request to the Secretary General of the United Nations to secure an immediate cease fire in Katanga in order to bring to an end the destruction of life and property resulting from the present fighting and thus create conditions in which, in a united Congo, a peaceful and just basis for co-operation may be negotiated.
As the House knows, and as I have described in past statements on this matter, there is a serious situation—one of great gravity—in the Congo, and, in particular, in Katanga, where fighting has now been continuing for about ten days, with loss of life—which everybody in the House will deeply regret—both military and civilian, together with serious and widespread damage, both military and civilian, in Katanga. It is a matter of the greatest gravity not only for Katanga, but also for the United Nations and its operations in the Congo, and, indeed, for the whole future of the United Nations.

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I have moved a Motion asking the House for support in the formal application that we have made to the Secretary-General of the United Nations for an immediate cease-fire in these circumstances. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and his right hon. and hon. Friends have put down an Amendment censuring the Government, and rejecting any appeal for a cease-fire. It must be the first time in our history that the British Labour Party has openly rejected an appeal for a cease-fire.
If we were to think about this matter from the point of view of events of this kind happening in one of our own territories the House would be gravely worried, and it would, quite rightly, be receiving suggestions for a cease-fire, for a withdrawal of the forces from each other, and for some way to be found of bringing the combatants together, and so on. That is what one would expect of the House of Commons. In fact, during the last few days many hon. Members have asked what arrangements we could make to bring this conflict to an end.
There are some hon. Members—and the hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Wyatt) gave the impression early in the week that he was one—who want to accept the actions of the United Nations right or wrong. That argument is tenable in many ways, but it is not one which Her Majesty's Government can accept. One is quite entitled to support a policy and also to watch with a critical eye its implementation. I would draw the attention of the House to some criticisms made of Her Majesty's Government in the past in the United Nations, and which may be made again today.
I would, first, refer to the remarks of the new Secretary-General, when he spoke for the first time at the end of the Security Council debate about Katanga on November 24. He then said:
"I must also say without opening up any new debates or entering into a defence of the United Nations Secretariat, for I think it needs none, that I welcome constructive criticism of the Secretariat and that I will be the first to admit its faults and errors and try to do all possible to correct them. Without specific reference to persons or events and without admitting a particular charge, I agree that mistakes have undoubtedly been made in the Congo. No operation of that scope and complexity could be free of them."
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That was also the view of the former Secretary-General. He accepted the principle of constructive criticism of the Secretariat and of United Nations operations. I hope that today, in this debate, it will be accepted that there is every right to criticise the action carried out by the United Nations or by its servants in its name—from any source and at any time. There is no limitation on the Secretary-General's statement.
As for the future of the United Nations, it seems to me that those who most care about its future should be those who should seek most of all to find an appropriate way of controlling the authority and power with which it is invested. In exactly the same way as in our own parliamentary and democratic system we have developed ways of controlling those who have the power, so I believe that in an international authority ways must be found of exercising similar control and supervision.
I wish to deal with the present situation, but in view of the terms of the Amendment due to be moved by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson), referring to the "equivocal and vacillating policies" of Her Majesty's Government in the Congo I must go over some of that policy as it has been applied in the past. The Opposition Amendment uses the words that I have quoted. There are other quotations which I could use—in particular, one from Dr. O'Brien which goes far wider in the accusations he makes about Her Majesty's Government. As this, too, is bound to be mentioned in debate it is right that it should be frankly discussed.
Dr. O'Brien said, of our policy: "It has been to give all aid covertly possible to the secessionist régime in Katanga while paying—in an attempt to delude the United States and the Afro-Asian Commonwealth—lip service to the unity of the Congo."
That is a very wide-ranging charge, and I find little in the article which follows to substantiate it. But as we are debating this matter, including past policy, it is right that we should consider it. I believe that there is no justification for such an accusation, and I hope that when the right hon. Member for Huyton speaks he will point out in detail where Her Majesty's Government's policy has been

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vacillating or equivocal—because Her Majesty's Government have followed a policy which, although it may be criticised by hon. Members opposite, has been a consistent one from the beginning of the operations.
What there has been—and this I fully acknowledge—is a complete difference of opinion in the House about the purpose of the United Nations operation. It is because of that difference of view that right hon. Gentlemen opposite are accusing Her Majesty's Government of changes in policy in relation to the Congo. The House must face the fact that the Congo is an independent country into which the United Nations went to assist an independent Administration—an Administration of complete sovereignty.
Again, different views have been expressed about this. When the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) asked a supplementary question last week he said:
"If the right hon. Gentleman's contention is that the force is not there to impose a political settlement, what is the purpose of the force?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th December. 1961 Vol. 650, c. 1387.]
That is very different from the idea of going into the Congo to help an independent Administration and to allow the Congolese to resolve their own difficulties.
Mr. John Stonehouse: Surely the answer to the question the right hon. Gentleman poses is to be found in the Security Council resolution of 21st February, which the Government supported. Paragraph 1 points out the objectives of United Nations and ends with the words:
"and the use of force, if necessary, in the last resort."
Mr. Heath: I am coming to a detailed examination of the resolutions in a moment, and I will deal with the one containing that paragraph.
At the beginning of his article on Sunday, in the Observer. Dr. O'Brien said:
"Now that fighting has begun again in Katanga, and while the U.S. is loyally helping the U.N. forces in a practical way, a British Government spokesman has said that a solution ought not to be imposed on Katanga by force. That statement, made in such circumstances, is a betrayal of U.N. soldiers who are now risking their lives in an attempt to implement resolutions which the British Government lacked the courage to veto."
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That is a clear indication that Dr. O'Brien himself believes—and must have believed at the time he was in the Congo—that the object of this operation was to impose a settlement by force.
Mr. William Warbey rose—
Mr. Heath: That was the view held and publicly expressed by one of the administrators in the Congo.
I shall now set out again, briefly, how the Government see the objects of the United Nations operation in the Congo. First, it is to provide the Congo with assistance—technical and civil. There has been a substantial amount of such assistance much of which has been very successful, and it is all too often overlooked. Secondly, it is to provide military assistance to enable the security forces to maintain law and order throughout the Congo. When we discuss law and order we regard it in the ordinary way in which we understand it in our towns, and not from a constitutional point of view. Thirdly, it is to prevent the Congo from becoming a new area of the cold war. In this action it has been successful.
By the United Nations having its forces there and controlling the airfields, the operation has been a deterrent to intervention. It has been an operation by the smaller Powers, and for that reason the Belgians were asked to withdraw their forces, even though many people might think that those forces could have contributed to the stability of the Congo. Nevertheless, they were withdrawn under the terms of a United Nations resolution.
Fourthly, the United Nations force is there to enable the Congo to settle its own internal differences and to make its own political arrangements. The view of Her Majesty's Government has always been that this should be carried out peacefully. That has been one of the prime objects of the United Nations in the Congo. The world at large, the great majority of the people in this country, and most hon. Members in this House, regard the United Nations as an organisation of peace and not one constructed to carry out operations of the kind we see at the moment. We believe that this policy should be carried out

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within the present frontiers of the Congo.
I wish to state clearly, again, that the Government have never supported the secession of the Katanga by word or by deed, and I challenge the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton to point to anything the Government have done which has been designed to support the secession of the Katanga. We have always believed that it is in the interests of world peace; that it is in the interests of the Congo, and also in British interests, to see that the Congo is united and stable within its present frontiers.
Mr. Desmond Donnelly rose—
Mr. Heath: There has already been an appeal to Mr. Speaker that speeches should be kept short, as many hon. Members wish to speak. I shall do my utmost to comply with that appeal.
I turn now to the United Nations resolutions which have authorised this operation—one of which has been mentioned by the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Stonehouse). It is on the basis of these that we must consider the Government's policy. The first resolution to which I want to draw the attention of the House is the one of 9th August, 1960, which reaffirms that the United Nations
"will not be a party to or in any way intervene in or be used to influence the outcome of any internal conflict, constitutional or otherwise."
It is difficult to think of a more comprehensive statement—whatever criticisms have been made about some United Nations resolutions being vague and indefinite—dealing with the fact that the United Nations must not take part in any internal political settlement either directly or indirectly.
From the quotations which I have made, it is clear that there is at least misunderstanding about this in the mind of the right hon. Member for Easington and also in the article of Dr. O'Brien that I have quoted. Furthermore, on 21st September, 1960, the United Nations requested the Secretary-General to assist in the maintenance of law and order in the Congo
"to safeguard its unity, territorial integrity and political independence in the interests of international peace and security."
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The resolution of 21st February, 1961, urged the United Nations to take
"all appropriate measures to prevent the occurrence of civil war in the Congo, including arrangements for cease-fires, the halting of all military operations, the prevention of clashes, and the use of force, if necessary, in the last resort."
This resolution, therefore, specifically adjures the United Nations to arrange the cease-fires, to prevent clashes and to halt military operations and other acts of that kind. It is a most specific injunction to the United Nations to do that.
When we come to the use of force in the last resort, the leader of the British delegation made his position absolutely plain. There has been an accusation that the British Government have never made their position plain on this matter. The leader of the British delegation made it plain. He said:
"I must explain that the interpretation which my delegation puts upon the words at the end of that paragraph, namely, and the use of force, if necessary, in the last resort' is that force will only be used by the United Nations to prevent a clash between hostile Congolese troops. There can be no question of empowering the United Nations to use its forces to impose a political settlement".
Once again, we made our position absolutely plain.
Mr. Warbey rose—
Mr. Heath: Since there has been continuous discussion on the withdrawal of the mercenaries, to which the right hon. Member for Easington referred twice in supplementary questions, I come to the next part of the resolution, which urges that measures be taken for the immediate withdrawal and evacuation of all Belgian and other foreign military and paramilitary personnel and political advisers not under United Nations command and mercenaries. That paragraph did not include permission for the use of force. That is very important. It explains a great deal of what went on last September in Katanga. It does not give authority for the removal of mercenaries by force. Let us be clear about that.
Mr. Warbey rose—
Mr. Speaker: Unless the Minister gives way, the hon. Gentleman must not persist.
Mr. Heath: It does not give authority for the removal of mercenaries by force.
Mr. A. C. Manuel: How?
Mr. Heath: They could have been removed in the way that they were removed on 28th August, when it was done by co-operation between Mr. Tshombe and the United Nations.
Her Majesty's Government have fully supported the resolutions which I have quoted. It was only on the resolution of 24th November, 1961, that Her Majesty's Government abstained, for the reasons that I have given. At that time, they feared that it would increase the tension in Katanga, because the application of force to the removal of mercenaries in Katanga would lead to the fear that the United Nations forces were going to try to overrun Katanga. It is perfectly clear that tension increased immediately after the passage of that resolution. There were other reasons why Her Majesty's Government abstained which I have explained and I shall not go through them again. As I say, the passing of that resolution led to a great increase in tension.
I wish to turn from the questions which have been raised about the support which Her Majesty's Government have given to the United Nations to mention again, briefly, what that support has been. First, there has been financial support, in which we have paid everything which has been asked of us on our full assessment. We have made a voluntary gift of 3 million dollars. We have provided air transport and have waived the cost of the initial lift. We have provided relief for famine and in other ways. Whenever we have been asked to supply transport for Commonwealth forces, we have done so. The total cost of doing that comes to just under £5½ million, which could well have been used in our own dependent territories. However, it was used to support the United Nations operation in the Congo. Therefore, financially, we have carried out all our obligations.
Very early on in the operation we received a request, which I do not think has been made public before, to train cadets or members of the A.N.C., which then badly needed retraining, in order to restore discipline. We undertook to do this, but shortly afterwards the request was countermandad by the United Nations forces. We were pre-
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pared to help in retraining members of the A.N.C. [HON. MEMBERS: "What is that?"] The National Congolese Army.
British representatives, whether at Leopoldville or Elisabethville, have always given assistance. In particular, there were the incidents at Matadi, which the House may have forgotten by now, in which there was great tension between the United Nations forces and the Leopoldville administration. We used all our influence in the way of conciliation. Rather than allow a head-on collision between United Nations forces and the forces of the authorities in Leopoldville, an arrangement was made through mediators, particularly through the good work of Mr. Gardiner, of Ghana, and Mr. Nhokwedi, of Nigeria, to iron out those difficulties and have a peaceful settlement. That seemed to us how events in the Congo should be handled.
In addition, we have played our part in the removal of mercenaries. Many of my right hon. and hon. Friends have been critical of us for doing that, but we have done it, and invalidated or withdrawn their passports. We gave support in the election of President Kasavubu's delegation to the United Nations. We gave our support in all the work which went towards restoring parliamentary administration in the Congo. The Government have followed a consistent policy towards the Congo and the United Nations operation.
It may be that hon. Members will want to argue that we were wrong in insisting that it should be done by peaceful means. We believe that we were right. As the resolution of 17th April, 1961, urges the Congolese to do likewise, we do not believe that we have been inconsistent. Others may want to impose a solution by force. We believe that they are wrong, because that is not the purpose of the United Nations. Nor have they, in the long-term, the forces with which to do it.
I turn to the events of last autumn which have led up to the present situation. On 28th August, there was the operation for the removal of mercenaries, which went very smoothly. It was said that all except 104 of them were expelled from Katanga. Mr. Tshombe accepted it. That demonstrated that an operation

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of this kind could be carried out by co-operation between the United Nations administration and the provincial administration in the Katanga.
On 13th September there was a further operation. That was the one which has proved so controversial. As I have said, Her Majesty's Government were not critical of the expulsion of mercenaries, but they were critical of this operation because it seemed to them that it went very much further than the one of 28th August, which, as I said in the debate in the middle of October, led one to believe that an attempt was being made to impose a particular settlement on the Katanga. My noble Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, the Marquess of Lansdowne, has given an account of his mission. He raised with Mr. Hammarskjold the points which caused us anxiety, and quite rightly so. Mr. Hammarskjold said that he would have all of them investigated, and he undertook to give us a reply. Alas, the tragedy was that he lost his life before he could do so.
Other criticisms have been made, which may be raised by right hon. and hon. Members today, about aspects of that particular operation. I wish to deal with one or two of them. First, there is the question of the overflying rights for the Ethiopian jets. Dr. O'Brien, in the Observer article, stated:
"One was the failure to arrive of the Ethiopian jet fighters which we had been told were on the way. We learned later that they had been held up at Entebbe, Uganda, because the local Administration of that British Protectorate found technical difficulties in clearing them…Our jets were still at Entebbe."
I wish to give an account of what happened. We were asked late on 16th September for overflying rights for these jets. This was at the same time as Mr. Hammarskjold told us that he would do his best to organise a cease-fire. Lord Lansdowne was, therefore, asked to inquire of Mr. Hammarskjold whether he wished to risk air warfare at the same time as he was trying to organise ceasefire talks. We for our part said that we would use any influence we had on Mr. Tshombe to ground the Fouga. That took place. Lord Lansdowne saw Mr. Hammarskjold on 17th September. We
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received his report the same evening and, as a result, permission was granted early the next morning. There was, therefore, hardly any time taken over what I believe was a rightful inquiry of the Secretary-General of the United Nations.
Her Majesty's Government were absolutely entitled to make an inquiry of that kind over a matter of such importance. But the statement that the jets were waiting at Entebbe is not correct, because they were not in a state to leave or able to leave Ethiopia until some five days later. They were, therefore, never at Entebbe because of a refusal of overflying rights.
The next accusation against the Government is that they were responsible for bringing about the cease-fire. Indeed, I have just heard an hon. Member opposite say that aloud. If they had been responsible, there would have been nothing dishonourable about that. But, in fact, it was Mr. Hammarskjold's decision which he had already reached before Lord Lansdowne arrived in Leopoldville. It was Mr. Hammarskjold's own decision, as I have told the House, to choose Ndola for the meeting place. I shall not disguise from the House that we ourselves saw considerable difficulties in having a meeting of that kind there at that time, in a disturbed state in Rhodesia, but it was his own desire and decision to have it there.
It is said that Mr. Hammarskjold was influenced by us in this decision. I have indicated that he made the decision on his own. Those of us who knew Mr. Hammarskjold's character, and the way in which he stood up in the Security Council of the United Nations on occasions against a tremendous Russian onslaught, do not believe that he was a man to be influenced in his own decisions. He made them himself, and he stuck to them.
After this, came the cease-fire agreement which we supported. It is said that this was a defeat for the United Nations. But it was only a defeat for the United Nations if those in control of the operation had decided that they wanted to go much further. That is the only way in which it can be described as a defeat for the United Nations. It was, in fact, a supreme

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effort by the Secretary-General, in the first instance, to bring about a ceasefire. It was then carried on by his own officials, and one can only wish that it had been more effective in these last few weeks.
Since then, Her Majesty's Government have made many efforts for conciliation and, in particular, to bring Mr. Tshombe and Mr. Adoula together. Lord Lansdowne, on his visit, did his utmost to persuade the two leaders to meet. In late October, our own Consul-General in Elisabethville approached Mr. Tshombe. We approached him again on 2nd November, when he was visiting Geneva, and on 11th, 12th and 13th November our Ambassador went from Leopoldville to Elisabethville specifically for the purpose of trying to arrange a meeting between the two men. I have given the House those details to show that we have been actively pursuing the path of conciliation.
I wish to tell hon. Members the two main difficulties that we have found in bringing the two men together. First, Mr. Adoula is Prime Minister of the Congo and, as such, has to consider the relationship between a Prime Minister of the Congo as a whole and someone he considers to be Prime Minister of a province of the Congo. Therefore, he has so far insisted on a meeting in Leopoldville and also recognition of the loi fondamentale and the constitutional arrangements under it.
On the other hand, Mr. Tshombe has a different view about the constitutional position and his own position, but, in particular, he has the greatest possible fear for his own security. He is not prepared to accept the undertakings of the United Nations or of the central Government outside Katanga. Considering that, having once attended a conference, he was arrested while United Nations personnel were present—I am not here arguing the rights or wrongs of that—and then detained for several weeks, one can understand the difficulties of arranging a meeting. I have told the House frankly what those difficulties are.
Between 13th November and the Ambassador's visit and the outbreak of fighting, we had been trying to work out a solution with other countries—with some of our friends—to see whether
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there was enough common ground, based on the statements made both by Mr. Tshombe and Mr. Adoula, to provide a basis for negotiation. That is where we had been turning our efforts in the last few weeks. Our examination showed that it might have been possible to find a basis of that kind, but then the outbreak of fighting occurred. There was also the Security Council Resolution of 24th November.
The result of that was, regrettably, Mr. Tshombe's speech calling on Katanga to resist. On 28th November there were ugly incidents, of which I told the House at the time, which involved Mr. Smith and Mr. Urquhuart, with both of whom we thought a new start might be made in trying to get a fresh relationship in Katanga which would then lead to a meeting between Mr. Tshombe and Mr. Adoula under the auspices of the United Nations. It is another tragedy of this ill-fated operation that these two men, almost as soon as they arrived, were involved in the ugly incident in which they were attacked.
On 3rd December there was the abduction of 11 soldiers from the airport: on 4th December the erection of the road blocks; on 5th December there came the decision of the United Nations to assert its right of freedom of movement. Since that time there has been bitter fighting, with casualties on both sides. I have not described all the details of every incident, because there is not the time to do so. I have given the House the details as we knew them on previous occasions.
Many of the incidents are inseparable from warfare. That is one of the strongest arguments for bringing the conflict to a conclusion. Many will argue about whether some of these incidents are deliberate, but we must all realise that many are inescapable from the nature of warfare when it is carried on. This is an operation which started from a series of incidents after high tension had been raised following the resolution of 24th November. It has been conducted by the United Nations in self-defence and in terms which have been described by the Secretary-General and of which hon. Members may have differing views. It is not an operation to arrest mercenaries. It may well be that in the course of it

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mercenaries will be killed, or some will be arrested, but the Secretary-General himself has made it plain that this is not an operation for the arrest of mercenaries.
I now wish to say something about the request of the Secretary-General for the supply of 1,000 lb. bombs. This was first raised with Her Majesty's Government on 21st October, and we had grave doubts in the period immediately following the cease-fire about the wisdom of this request by the United Nations. It was, therefore, discussed in New York. It was complicated by the approach of the Security Council resolution of 24th November. Her Majesty's Government were embarrassed because of the absence of emphasis on conciliation in that resolution. The United Nations renewed its request in the late evening of 7th December, and, after further exchanges resulting in the undertakings which were given, with very great reluctance we agreed.
I do not think that there can be anybody in the House who would think that Her Majesty's Government approached a problem like this without the greatest reluctance. We know what weapons of this kind mean, and the idea of using them in the heart of Africa in these circumstances must be abhorrent to every hon. Member if it can possibly be avoided. [HON. MEMBERS: "Suez."] Therefore, we make no apology for approaching it with great reluctance.
On Monday I made a statement explaining our attitude and what had happened over the week-end. I said, first—I wish to emphasise this—that
"Her Majesty's Government are now seriously disturbed by the way in which the fighting in Katanga has developed. Attacks on non-military objectives, such as power stations, mines, dams, hospitals and private houses, have been reported, although some of these have not been confirmed. There has been some loss of civilian life in addition to military casualties."
It was the spread of fighting in that Way, with reports that civilian objectives were being hit and civilians killed, which aroused further doubts in our mind. [HON. MEMBERS: "Suez."] Perhaps hon. Gentlemen would like to judge this on the circumstances in this case.
I went on to say that that was the 'first thing which raised further doubts
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in our minds about the use of weapons of this destructive power. I then said:
"Her Majesty's Government are also greatly concerned about certain statements which have been made over the week-end by both military and civil United Nations officials in the Congo about their objectives in Katanga. In this connection, they are studying the important statement made by the Secretary-General last night and, in particular, the latter part describing the purpose of the present military operation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th December, 1961; Vol. 651, c. 34–5.]
Towards the end of our exchanges that afternoon, when I was asked a question by the Leader of the Opposition, I quoted part of the interview by Dr. Linner—first, about a political solution, and, secondly, about having carte blanche.
Later that evening, after we had had our exchanges in the House, I saw a statement which had come from Leopoldville made by Dr. Linner about the circumstances. When the interview was published in the Swedish Press, we checked at that source and asked about it. We were told that it had been published in good faith because it was believed to represent the results of the interview. This was on Friday.
Mr. Denis Healey: The denial was on Sunday.
Mr. Heath: On Sunday, part appeared in the Swedish Press which I did not see. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Because it did not reach us in London, and I did not see the first part of Dr. Linner's statement until the evening of last Monday. The second half of the statement dealt with a different matter, namely, having carte blanche. Yesterday, there was a statement by the journalist himself about the distortion which had arisen.
Of course, I completely accept what Dr. Linner has said is the correct version of his interview. The first statement he made did not contain a denial of the remarks printed in the Swedish Press. The United Nations, with which we raised this on Sunday evening, gave no denial either. It gave the statement of the Secretary-General, and on that I based my statement to the House. The second part of Dr. Linner's statement was about his authority in the United Nations, and that remains as I quoted in my remarks to the Leader of the Opposition.

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The extract from Dr. Linner's statement which was made to the Swedish Consul is as follows:
"That I have, within the framework of the Security Council decision been given free hands to conduct the local action is correct with the obvious amendment that this carte blanche also includes our civilian and military leadership in Katanga, which obviously has greater possibilities than myself to closely follow the developments and thereby take required actions."
It is within the framework, but it does leave the decision about the interpretation of these resolutions to those who are in the Congo and Katanga itself. This is obviously a matter which must be most carefully considered in operations of this kind. We sought clarification of this from the Secretary-General. We have received it and I will mention it in a moment.
Mr. J. J. Mendelson: If the right hon. Gentleman, through the good offices of our Embassy in Stockholm, was able to confirm the statement published in the popular paper Expressen over the weekend, although it appeared only on Friday afternoon, why was he not, with the same services of our Embassy, by Monday afternoon, when he made his statement, able to learn of the denial published in Svenska Dagblad, which is a much more serious paper?
Mr. Heath: Because we received the first part before the weekend and the second part in the Swedish Press was not actually a denial. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am not making any fuss about this. I am stating the facts. I have told the House that I fully accept everything Dr. Linner has said, but I have also stated that this was only one of the reasons why we were disturbed over the weekend and not the most important reason. I stated that the most important reason was the development of the fighting.
Finally, the Secretary-General yesterday withdrew the request for the bombs. The Secretary-General has set out the objectives of the United Nations operation. They are wide objectives, and we must realise that. I do not want to quote them all to the House, because the text is available, but they are objectives to protect the United Nations forces, with the statement that the military operations will be pursued up to such time, and only up to such time,
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as the objectives are achieved, either by military or by other means. We have satisfactory guarantees in this regard for the future, not only in Elisabethville but over the whole of Katanga.
This means that it is a very considerable operation on which the United Nations is embarked. That, again, obviously raises great apprehensions as to how long the fighting is to continue and what the results are to be in the course of it. It is now a worsening situation and some of the incidents are difficult to reconcile with the aims of the operation as described at the moment by the Secretary-General. In fact, the United Nations is now in danger of carrying out operations against very bitter hostility in Katanga.
The operations may last some time. We cannot tell. There is that risk. In the end, because of the nature of the objectives which have been set, there is the danger that the United Nations, although it may not wish it, is leading to the imposition of a political settlement and is, therefore, going against the resolutions which have been passed to govern its activities.
Her Majesty's Government feel that in these circumstances the right course is to ask the Secretary-General for a ceasefire, to do his utmost, as his predecessor did in the September operations, to put an end to the fighting. We believe that the destruction of life and property should be brought to an end. The Secretary-General himself made an eloquent plea for conciliation at the end of the Security Council meeting on 24th November. Moreover, he referred to it again in his statement on Sunday night after the matter had been discussed with him.
We therefore believe it right to make a further great effort to resolve this peacefully. The Amendment tabled by the Leader of the Liberal Party sets out certain ways in which this can be done. We do not want to specify at this moment how the cease-fire ought to be brought about. We want the initiative to be taken to bring it about, but we are doing our utmost with those concerned at the same time to bring Mr. Adoula and Mr. Tshombe together
Nobody in the House can be happy about the situation in the Congo. It may be that many observers see strange paradoxes in the House of Commons

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today. We are putting forward a Motion for a cease-fire, which the Labour Party cannot accept. There are hon. Members who think that the Government ought not to have been so reluctant about their decision regarding the bombs for which the United Nations asked. There are hon. Members opposite who have supported secession in other quarters in Africa but who are very strongly opposed to the mention of secession in the Congo. We believe it right that there should not be secession, but the most important fact facing us at the moment is that it is in the interests both of the Congo and of Katanga for them to come together.
There can be no prosperity or even viability for the Congo without Katanga. There can be no permanent arrangement or stability for Katanga if the rest of the Congo is starved and in chaos. Therefore, it is fundamentally in the interests of both to come together. We must persuade them to do that. I do not believe that it is possible to bring that about by force.
We therefore want the United Nations to return to the peaceful purpose with which most people associate it. Most people regret that it should at the moment be in these circumstances. Her Majesty's Government support the United Nations, as I have tried to show. We have been consistent in our policy in supporting the Congo operation. We have rightly expressed our criticisms when we have had them, and when we have had our doubts, we have expressed those, too. Throughout, however, we have supported the course of a peaceful settlement of differences. The task now is for the United Nations to restore peace to the Congo in order to achieve a political settlement.
What is necessary to achieve that is a cease-fire and negotiations. We are calling upon the Secretary-General of the United Nations to arrange it. We will do our utmost for our part to give him every assistance in so doing. Her Majesty's Government believe their actions to be right and I ask the House to support them.
4.31 p.m.
Mr. Harold Wilson: I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to
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the end of the Question and to add instead thereof
"while urging that every effort should be made to establish a united Congo by agreement, regrets that Her Majesty's Government by their equivocal and vacillating policies have thrown the gravest doubt upon their willingness genuinely to support the efforts of the United Nations to restore law and order and prevent civil war in the Congo, thus bringing the name of Britain into disrepute and making it more difficult for the United Nations forces, including Commonwealth troops, to fulfil their difficult mission."
Nothing in the speech of the Lord Privy Seal has done anything to detract from the record of Her Majesty's Government over the whole sorry story of the past eighteen months, a record of manoeuvring, of frustrating resolutions, when they have not been men enough to oppose those resolutions in public. That is our charge.
In the whole speech of the Lord Privy Seal this afternoon, the wriggling and quibbling about what happened last weekend, about his unfortunate reference to something he had read, or thought he had read, in the newspapers, all his wriggling and manoeuvring this afternoon, the whole slanted line which he has put forward about events in the Congo and the attempt always to discredit the United Nations actions in the Congo—although all this was confident and defiant in tone, the content and inspiration of it was no more than an abject surrender to hon. Members opposite who sit below the Gangway.
The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that, especially over the events of the past two weeks, he has been surrendering to the views of hon. Members behind him with whom the Government cannot in their hearts agree, but whom they dare not stand up to. That is our charge. I hope shortly to produce a little evidence in support of it.
The Motion moved by the right hon. Gentleman seeks support for a proposal for a cease-fire, a proposal for which, so far, Her Majesty's Government have got the backing of hardly a single fellow member of the United Nations. That makes it look a little odd, does it not? Oh, yes, South Africa and Portugal. South Africa, Portugal, France and Belgium. The Prime Minister always wanted to lead a group in the world. He is leading one now. That is what he became Prime Minister to achieve.

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The fact that hardly a single member of the United Nations takes this proposal from the Lord Privy Seal seriously is sufficient comment on the remarks he threw across the Floor of the House about whether this side wanted to see a genuine end to the fighting in the Congo. [HON. MEMBERS: "Does the right hon. Gentleman?"] I shall make my speech in my own way and hon. Members, no doubt, will listen to it. The contempt with which this appeal has been turned down even by Mr. Tshombe and his Ministers and by his chief of staff is sufficient answer to the kind of remarks that the right hon. Gentleman has made.
Yesterday, on the tape, under the heading, "Britain alone on Katanga ceasefire call", I read:
"A Foreign Office spokesman made it clear today that the call for a cease-fire in Katanga being pit to U Thant, the United Nations Secretary-General, is being made in the name of the British Government. He knew of no common appeal."
The plain truth is that the cease fire for which the Government are asking is not in the Congo. The cease-fire which they want is from the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke). It is because of that, and, because of the threats they received last Monday morning, that the Government are now indulging in this manoeuvre, which, in the United Nations and in world opinion, means that this country stands practically alone.
Sir Robert Grimston: Not for the first time.
Mr. Wilson: Not for the first time, as the hon. Member says. In 1940, the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) could end his stirring message of resistance to Hitler with the words, "if necessary, alone".
Since then, under the leadership of the Prime Minister, we have twice stood alone. Five years ago, over Suez, we earned the world's ostracism. Today, we merely earn the world's contempt. Even the B.B.C., which is not the most impartial purveyor of news where Her Majesty's Government are concerned, this morning had to admit that our representatives in the United Nations were being cut and snubbed by their fellow members in the United Nations. [Laughter.] Hon. Members opposite
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may have different standards, but we on this side bitterly resent it—this is not a matter for laughter, and hon. Members in their hearts know it—when we see this country's name dragged in the mud over a political manœuvre of this kind.
Before I come to my main indictment, let me try to summarise at least one or two points where there may be some degree of common ground. It is necessary to do this because the Lord Privy Seal and the Prime Minister, earlier this week, have tried to cloud the issue by stating certain obvious truths in such a way as to suggest that we disagreed with them.
First, of course, we all want to see the fighting stop. There cannot be any disagreement about that. We want a cease-fire, provided that it is a ceasefire which this time, unlike the last one, will be respected and carried out. The last one was not. It was interesting to notice that yesterday the United States Government, with the authority of the President, made exactly the same point that they will go for a cease-fire when there is some assurance that it can be carried out. That was said yesterday by the American Under-Secretary.
Secondly, all of us agree—I have said this before and the Lord Privy Seal will accept it—that the solution of the Congo problem that we all want to see must be a negotiated one. It will require conciliation. It must involve the consent and the good will of the Congo. Both sides agree about that. It cannot be imposed militarily, and no one has suggested that it can. It is a complete red herring which the right hon. Gentleman keeps throwing. Equally, the conditions for negotiation and conciliation cannot he created as long as peace is jeopardised by the unlawful operations of the mercenaries referred to in the United Nations resolution of 24th November, a resolution which, in fact, went through the Security Council with no vote recorded to the contrary.
We have seen what has happened. I hoped that it would not be necessary to say this, but in view of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks perhaps I have to. We in the Labour Party abominate any action which involves the death of innocent civilians We always have done. We opposed the bombing of women and

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children at Suez five years ago, against the active opposition of practically all right hon. and hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway opposite, and it was nauseating that the right hon. Gentleman, who, at that time, was Chief Whip, getting the United Nations' supporters in the Conservative Party into the Lobby in support of the Suez operations, should come along this afternoon and make the kind of remarks that he has done. How hypocritical can right hon. Gentlemen be?
I do not intend today, in general, to go back to the events which preceded our last foreign affairs debate, because they were fully debated a few weeks ago, but perhaps it is worth repeating one obvious truth, on which I think the whole House would agree and which in all this welter of in-fighting, military and political, of organised and unorganised confusion and of charges and counter-charges is a truth which can too quickly be forgotten—namely, how much of the responsibility for the present state of affairs rests with those who, in the long decades of colonialism, failed to bring the Congolese people forward into the light, to train and fit them, administratively and technically for the responsibilities which were bound to fall upon them? Without being smug or complacent, I do not think that any of us can fail to point to the contrast between the Congo and the day of their hand-over eighteen months ago and the events leading to the independence of Tanganyika last weekend.
The Lord Privy Seal referred to some charges that have been made. Ten days ago, Dr. O'Brien, on resigning from the United Nations service, made very serious charges against the Government, accusing them of working to frustrate United Nations decisions to which they were a party. My case today is not based on the charges of Dr. O'Brien. He will no doubt—indeed, he must—formulate his allegations and produce his evidence, and we shall then demand that the Government produce an equally detailed and specific reply to those charges. Some might say that Dr. O'Brien has lived through months of hell in the Congo and that the frustrations he has met have led him to pitch his charges in extravagant terms. I do
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not know. We have not seen the charges fully formulated.
Certainly, all of us have a great respect for this international administrator and the fact that his charges have been supported by an experienced general, the United Nations Commander-in-Chief, and by Mr. Nehru, who must have received reports from Mr. Dayal and Brigadier Raja, calls for an answer. These charges come on top of the suspicions which the Government have generated by their own actions and they have fed suspicions which existed in many parts of the world long before Dr. O'Brien broke his silence. For the Foreign Office, as it did last week, to treat these charges as the outpourings of an obscure private person of whom it had no need to take any cognisance, is highly dangerous for Britain's reputation.
It was rightly said in an article in the Guardian last week that, before the bar of world opinion, the old British rule that one is innocent until proved guilty does not hold, and that there is, in fact, a prejudice against all colonial and ex-colonial Powers. In my view, in view of Britain's record in bringing in so many countries to self-government, that particular prejudice is highly unfair, but, nevertheless, the prejudice is there, and it has been unnecessarily and wantonly turned into open hostility. We have been branded as an old-fashioned colonial and imperial Power, simply because the Government have smirched our reputation by their actions over Angola and South West Africa. Suspicions were already built up by this kind of action. Before the events of the past three weeks, there has been a whole series of actions which have thrown doubt on our position.
The right hon. Gentleman has gone some way to explain one or two things this afternoon, and I was very interested in what he said about the Ethiopian aircraft. This is something we have twice debated in the House in two very full debates on the Congo question, and it is not until sometime after that the right hon. Gentleman can bethink himself of an answer to these very serious charges which were causing suspicion all over the world. We ought to have had those answers.
Mr. Heath: I know that the right hon. Gentleman has come to his new post only recently, but I answered that question in the House very fully. I stated that the overflying rights were granted but the planes were not available for another five days.
Mr. Wilson: I know that, but that does not explain the whole story of these events. The right hon. Gentleman put the whole responsibility on the then Secretary-General of the United Nations. The New York Times London correspondent reported a Foreign Office source as saying:
"Our idea was to stop the 'escalation' of fighting. If there had been more planes there on one side or the other, it might have turned into a different kind of war".
Therefore, it is a very different kind of explanation from that we have had this afternoon, that the Government were holding the balance between the United Nations, on the one hand, and Katanga, on the other.
Mr. Heath: I know that the right hon. Gentleman wants to be fair. Lord Lansdowne put this to Mr. Hammarskjold at Elisabethville directly he received the request from New York that there was a danger, at the time he was trying to organise a cease-fire, that if these planes came in there would be an escalation of the air war. Was it not better for everyone to try to get everyone to ground the aeroplane which was in action, rather than run this risk? Mr. Hammarskjold gave his decision, and we gave the overflying rights for the aircraft.
Mr. Wilson: It has taken us six weeks to get the explanation we have been given this afternoon. Many of my hon. Friends who pressed the right hon. Gentleman on this will confirm that he would not deal with this point in the previous debate. There was the question of Lord Lansdowne's visit to the Congo, on which there is still a fairly big degree of mystery. We have been told very little, except that when Lord Lansdowne returned he described the United Nations' action as outrageous—a phrase which he later qualified but did not withdraw.
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell us what action the Government have taken with regard to finding the origin
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of the bomb-equipped planes which reinforced the Katanga forces, especially the planes of German make. Have the Government confirmed reports that these planes flew from Munich via French and Portuguese airfields? There is a specific charge about that. If this is the case, did the Government protest in Bonn about these planes being sent from Munich for the purpose of fighting against the United Nations in Katanga?
Again, we have the strange failure of the Lord Privy Seal to answer repeated questions, put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) on 2nd November, whether or no the Government regarded the ceasefire as binding on Katanga. We also have the strange fact of the right hon. Gentleman's subsequent failure to condemn breaches of the cease-fire. There was his strange silence when I asked him last week about Her Majesty's Vice-Consul at Elisabethville, whether he was, as was suggested in The Times, a member of the External Affairs Department of the Central African Federation. I do not complain if there was a Vice-Consul who was doing purely consular services for Rhodesian citizens.
That is one of the points which the right hon. Gentleman must answer, and which I hope the Prime Minister will answer clearly tonight. Will he give us an assurance that at no time did this Vice-Consul, or any other consular official in Elisabethville, meet Mr. Tshombe and give him any assurance, real or implied, of any support from this country in resistance to the United Nations forces? I hope that we shall get an answer from the Government this evening, because it is very important that this should be absolutely clear.
Mr. Heath: There are so many strange things that apparently I have not answered. The right hon. Gentleman asked only once about the Consul and he said, "Central African Republic". I admit that I must have been a little dense. I did not realise at that time that he was referring to the Central African Federation. It is perfectly true that the Consul is a member of the External Affairs Department of the Central African Federation. It was an arrangement made before the Congo achieved independence and it has been continued with the full knowledge of the central

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Government at Leopoldville. The last one, Mr. Smith, has return to Salisbury and a replacement will be sent in due course, in the normal way. It is a very convenient arrangement, and has been for some time now, on account of the close relationship between Katanga and the Copperbelt in Northern Rhodesia.
Mr. Wilson: I am sure that it is a highly convenient—[HON. MEMBERS: "Copper bottom."]—arrangement. It is generally convenient to tourists and visitors and others, apart from those whose interests my hon. Friends may have in mind. What we want to know is whether the Consul has any political activities or carried any political messages from Sir Roy Welensky or someone else to Mr. Tshombe affecting the conduct of affairs in the Congo. We should like to have a full report on this from the Prime Minister later today.
Now we come to the events of the past three weeks. First, there was the resolution of the Security Council of 24th November which provides the authority for the present military action. This resolution
"authorises the Secretary-General to take vigorous action, including the use of a requisite measure of force, if necessary, for the immediate apprehension of all foreign military and para-military personnel and political advisers not under the United Nations command, and mercenaries, as laid down in paragraph A-2 of the Security Council Resolution of February 21st, 1961."
This was carried by nine votes to nil, Britain and France abstaining. Why did Britain abstain?
The reasons, or alleged reasons, were given by our representative in the Security Council, but we have not been told clearly by the right hon. Gentleman why instructions were given to our representative—not to oppose this resolution, because the Government did not have the guts to oppose it against other members of the Security Council—to make sufficient reservations so that the Government would be able to quote them afterwards. The Lord Privy Seal again and again—and he did so today—has tried to ride off that with the argument that we must not use force to impose a political settlement. This is not the issue here. This is not an operation to impose a political settlement.
Of course, there must be conciliation, and of course, there must be a
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political solution within the loi fondamentale of the Congo, and of course such a political solution cannot and should not be imposed by military means. That is not in question, either with us or with the United Nations or, as far as I know, with nations which support the United Nations. But conciliation and a political solution are impossible as long as the foreign mercenaries are operating in Katanga.
I go further. It is very much open to doubt whether Mr. Tshombe is in any sense himself in control in Katanga. On 28th August he placed his hand on his heart and said that all foreign mercenaries had been dismissed. This is manifestly untrue. One must ask how far he is master in Katanga. For many weeks there have been strong signs that the gendarmerie, itself controlled by the mercenaries, plays a decisive role, sometimes overruling Mr. Tshombe himself. During the past weeks two of his Ministers, Munango and Kibwe have had an important difference with Mr. Tshombe and have used that influence with the gendarmerie to stiffen Mr. Tshombe when he has appeared to move towards reconciliation.
There have been times, such as on the occasion of the kidnapping of Major Singh, when the gendarmerie have seemed to be independent even of Munango. The power of the mercenaries and their inflammatory actions in stirring up the gendarmerie have reached the point when even Mr. Tshombe's Commander-in-Chief, General Moke, has been afraid to enter the gendarmerie camps. The massacre of tribesmen in North Katanga gives the lie to the sweet, soothing public relations handouts about Katanga as a garden of peace and law and order. These doubts which I have expressed have been confirmed by General McKeown, this week. The Lord Privy Seal will see it if he looks into the accurate report of what General McKeown said and not the particular kind of report which the right hon. Gentleman favours in this matter.
As to the actual outbreak of fighting, two versions have been given. First, there has been that of the United Nations, also supported by the United States, and there has been the Tshombe-Heath version which we have had in the House. It is significant how slanted in favour

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of the Tshombe view have been the statements of the Lord Privy Seal from the moment that fighting started. He will probably tell us that he had that in good faith from Her Majesty's Consul in Elisabethville. But in every one of his statements since the fighting began he has blindly ignored the need to get the mercenaries out of the way, and he keeps trying to suggest that the United Nations is trying to impose a political solution.
The right hon. Gentleman went so far as to suggest—and this is a dangerous remark—that because Britain made reservations in the debate on the resolution of 24th November we were to the extent of those reservations not bound to co-operate in the implementation of the resolution. It is a dangerous view to put forward, to suggest that it a country made qualifications in the debate but did not oppose a resolution it was to the extent of the reservations entitled not to implement any duties that fell upon it. Her Majesty's Government, as loyal members of the United Nations, are bound by that decision whatever reservation is expressed by the Government.
Article 25 of the Charter states clearly that
"The members of the United Nations agree to accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council in accordance with the present Charter."
There is nothing about any reservations, and there are no footnotes that one can add in connection with this.
The Lord Privy Seal, in the account that he has given us of the particular representations made to the Secretariat, has virtually admitted this afternoon that the Government have successively—and yesterday in asking for the cease-fire—been in breach of Article 100 of the Charter in trying to interfere with the Secretariat in carrying out its duties.
The terminology of Article 100 is quite clear:
"Each member of the United Nations undertakes to respect the exclusively international character of the responsibilities of the Secretary-General and the staff and not to seek to influence them in the discharge of their responsibilities."
Is it not a fact that the Government, time after time, have complained that this is what the Russians are always doing?
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Now we have had it from Her Majesty's Government over the past few weeks.
We did not oppose the resolution. I want the Prime Minister to tell us whether he accepts that the resolution of the United Nations is binding on this country, whether or not we voted for it. I should have thought that Article 25 was quite clear. So, indeed, was the statement made only six weeks ago in the Gracious Speech:
"My Government will continue to give resolute support to the United Nations. They believe it to be essential for the future of the world that the authority of this organisation should be sustained, and that it should be enabled to carry out the tasks assigned to it under its Charter."
Did the Prime Minister believe those words when they were composed? Why has he been acting in complete defiance of them during the six weeks since the new Session of Parliament was opened? [HON. MEMBERS: "He has not"] Of course he has.
I now return to the request for the bombs. We have been told today when the request was first made, but not why the Government delayed so long before a decision was reached. A week ago the Government were smoked out, and this brought to a head what was already becoming clear—the growing divergence between British and United States policies and between British policy and those of some of the leading members of the Commonwealth. After receiving assurances about the strictly military uses to which the bombs would be put—which the Government were perfectly entitled to request—
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): What the right hon. Gentleman is saying is of the greatest importance. I shall come to this later. Will he repeat what he has said?
Mr. Wilson: I will say it again. The right hon. Gentleman has a piece of paper, and he can take my words down. But all this still does not explain what was said on Monday. After securing assurances that the bombs would be limited to dealing with pirate aircraft and the strips from which they operate, the Government gave their assent, quite clearly, last Friday. There was no equivocation about it.
The Prime Minister: It was on Thursday night.
Mr. Wilson: The decision was announced on Friday.
Perhaps the Prime Minister will tell us the whole story. He will not disagree when I say that it was announced unequivocally that the Government had given their consent, subject to the assurances that had been given about the use of the bombs. It was being widely put about—and I am quite prepared to accept repudiation of this particular statement—that the Government were whispering to their rebel back benchers last Monday that the purpose of asking for the assurances was to secure a negative response from the United Nations so that the Government could then refuse to supply the bombs. That had been assiduously put about on Monday morning. I understand that the Suez Group was going about saying that the Government had been too clever by half.
It was, in any case, the unexpected acceptance by the United Nations which led to the decision to let the bombs go. Then, over the weekend, the Katanga lobby mobilised. In addition to its activities, which were not inconsiderable, Sir Roy Welensky produced a thunderous but highly improper intervention in this matter. Amongst other things, he appealed to the British people to rise up and reverse their Government's policy. While the British people, on the whole, remained calm, Sir Roy's supporters in this House staged a revolt.
On Monday, we got an abject surrender by the Government on the thinnest and most implausible grounds that I have ever heard. Seizing on these totally inaccurate reports of statements attributed to Dr. Linner and General McKeown, the Government said that the general situation must be clarified before the bombs could be released. Let us look at that flimsy excuse. First, there is Dr. Linner's interview. Dr. Linner was misreported in Friday's Swedish newspaper Expressen. Since then, not only Dr. Linner but the newspaper and the reporter and also the Secretary-General himself have confirmed that he was misreported.
One would have thought that we would have had an apology from the Lord Privy Seal. The statement from the reporter and the newspaper
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appeared with an appropriate apology on Tuesday last. No doubt the Foreign Office will be receiving copies of it by about the weekend. As the Lord Privy Seal knows, and as he has admitted today, the statement to which he referred on Monday was repudiated in Sunday's paper.
Mr. Heath: No.
Mr. Wilson: Why did not the right hon. Gentleman say so on Monday? Why did he refer only to Friday's statement, which was inaccurate, without saying anything about the fact that on Sunday there was an entirely different statement?
Mr. Heath: I have already said today that when I answered, in closing, the Leader of the Opposition, I had not seen any repudiation of the statement. I had not seen Sunday's report. [HON. MEMBERS "Why?"] Because it did not reach me until Monday evening, and when it did reach me it was not in the form of a denial of what had been said by Dr. Linner, but in the form of a fresh statement. The part which we later learned was published in the Swedish Press was only half of this statement. I have further studied it, of course, and I accept everything that Dr. Linner, the reporter and the newspaper have since said. But what I said was in good faith and according to the knowledge I had.
Mr. Wilson: If the right hon. Gentleman says that he had not seen Sunday's newspaper on Monday, then, of course, we accept it, but what is the Foreign Office doing? Is he telling us that the "go-slow" has started already in the Foreign Office?
Immediately after the right hon. Gentleman's statement on Monday, an official of Transport House got from Sweden in three hours the fact of the statement in Sunday's newspapers. If Transport House can get the truth in three hours, why does the Foreign Office take 36 hours to get an untruth? Even on Tuesday afternoon the Prime Minister was still casting doubt on the extent to which the original statement had been repudiated. The Guardian said today:
"In more scrupulous days, Mr. Heath would by now have resigned, although the responsibility is not his alone."

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As for General McKeown, every report except that quoted by the Lord Privy Seal gives a totally different impression. I have seen the full report, as, I hope, the Lord Privy Seal has by this time. If he has not, I would be glad to send him a copy. When he receives it, I think that he will agree that the report could not possibly bear the interpretation he has put on it. This is what we get from Ministers who are always warning hon. Members not to believe all that they read in the newspapers. That is why we must ask why the House was misled.
It is obvious what happened. On Monday morning the Government knew that if they went on with their decision about the bombs they were in danger of a major revolt extending to half their party. They thus snatched at any excuse. A crowd of Ministers sat there reading every newspaper they could find to try to find a little cutting which would justify their reversing the decision. This is not my imagination. I go for my facts on the real reasons for this reversal to the fountainhead himself, the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South. I accept him not only as a witness of the truth but as a witness who knows what he is talking about in this matter. He was interviewed on Independent Television on Monday, and I have seen the script. It says:
"Interviewer: Why do you think the Government did change its mind?
Lord Hinchingbrooke. What about? Sending the bombs?
Interviewer: Yes.
Lord Hinchingbrooke: I should think that they had a very strong expression of opinion from the Conservative Party throughout Westminster and in the country over the week-end, and when the Conservative Party is united and determined not to have something the Government are obliged to give way.
Interviewer: Do you think they have given way completely and that these bombs will never go to the United Nations?
Lord Hinchingbrooke: I think you can safely trust that they will not go. Certainly not in these circumstances."
There was not a word there about either Dr. Linner or General McKeown. The noble Lord was realistic. He gave us the facts. We know him and respect him. He is not given to exaggerated claims. He is not a political paranoic. He was giving, with the frankness we
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expect of him, a blunt description of the power system in his own party. He, unlike the Government—if I can still flatter them with that title in view of the way they are being pushed around—made no attempt to produce irrelevant or false evidence.
I agree with him that the Government knew on Monday that these bombs were not going. The Government were entitled to ask for assurances about the military use of the bombs. As the Government had for so long evaded any admission that they were bound to grant facilities legitimately required by the United Nations, and went on doing so up to Thursday, it was all the more desirable that they should return an affirmative answer, provided that they got the assurances about military use, because that answer was by this time required to satisfy the world that the Government still had some regard for their obligations to the United Nations.
The last act of this sorry and tragic story is the Motion. Frankly, nobody takes it seriously outside this country. It has one object—to meet opposition amongst Government back benchers. In that it appears to have succeeded, but only at a heavy price in terms of our standing with our allies and in the world. It is a hollow proposal, not meant seriously by the Government, and the reaction to it abroad shows that no one else takes it seriously either.
Mr. Stephen Hastings rose—
Mr. Wilson: I shall not give way. Members opposite can give orders to the Government, but they cannot give orders to the Opposition.
The final result of the decision incorporated in the Motion was that the Secretary-General yesterday finally cancelled the request for the bombs, and he cancelled it with contempt. U Thant knows now that he cannot count on Britain. It is even said now that he has been told that the Government cannot guarantee to hold their rebels on the question of payment of the Congo contribution to the United Nations. I do not know whether the Prime Minister himself knows if he can hold the position on that. One of the things which weighed with U Thant was doubt

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even about Britain's continued membership of the United Nations in view of this surrender.
This is a terrible time for this sort of thing to be happening. This week should have seen a united West deciding on vitally necessary negotiations on Berlin. The Prime Minister has been silent for some weeks about his views on negotiations on Berlin. He was obviously casting himself—and we do not object—for the rôle of honest broker in those negotiations. That is quite right, and it seemed that the United States and Britain were in some measure of agreement about Berlin. But the right hon. Gentleman must realise that the honest broker needs to bring clean hands to his mission.
The Prime Minister must realise that he needs the confidence of his partners and allies. Can he say that he has that confidence as a result of his handling of the Congo situation? Has it struck him that the really ominous thing in the past week has been the almost deafening silence of Russia? If we believe in a united Congo, how can we prevent Russian moves to encourage the secession of perhaps some other province if we appear to be half-hearted in relation to the secession of Katanga?
If mercenaries are not to be removed from Katanga, and other mercenaries pour into another province from Eastern Europe—they would be called volunteers and might come from China or Albania or Russia—would Members opposite support action to remove them? This is the danger with which the Government are gambling in playing politics in this matter.
Finally, I turn to the steps which need urgently to be taken, and they will not be so easy to take now as they might have been a few weeks ago. First, the Government must show that they are determined to govern and repudiate the doctrines and pressures of the Katanga lobby below the Gangway and behind them. The House is familiar with the old "Suez Group". We know that only the slightest stimulus is needed to bring out in them their old built-in atavistic reflexes—Suez, Cyprus, Kenya, Nyasaland, Northern Rhodesia and now the Congo. [An HON. MEMBER: "Stick to finance"] The hon. Member invites me to go back to finance. I am coming to
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that in a moment. There is a lot of finance in this business, some rather seamy, sordid aspects of finance. But perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to reach that in my own way and in my own time.
Before I do that, I want to remind hon. Members of what is involved. In 1955, Mr. Philip Bell, then a Conservative Member of Parliament, asked leave under the Ten Minutes Rule to introduce a Bill and I quote from its Title:
"…to provide that persons who give aid and comfort or adhere to the enemies of the United Nations shall, if the armed forces of the Queen are operating with the United Nations, be deemed guilty of treason."
A co-sponsor of the Bill was the present Civil Lord of the Admiralty. Leave to introduce the Bill was challenged, but it was carried on a Division. For the Bill there voted the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South and the bulk of his present supporters, from the hon. Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston) right down to the hon. and gallant Member for Knutsford (Sir W. Bromley-Davenport).
Let me remind the noble Lord, who voted for that Bill only six years ago, that Nigerian armed forces, forces of the Queen, are
"operating with the United Nations"
and it was then suggested that anyone who gave aid and comfort to those enemies was committing treason. I should also mention that in the Lobby—and it is not usual for Ministers to vote for a Ten-Minute Bill—was the then Minister of Defence, the present Prime Minister. [HON. MEMBERS: "He is not listening."] The right hon. Gentleman can read it in the Swedish newspapers over the wekend.
The second thing the Government must do is to dissociate themselves in these matters from the pressures of Sir Roy Welensky. Despite his denial, there is still a strong suspicion that his ultimate aim is a union of Katanga and the Rhodesias. I have stated in the House that the constitutional position of Sir Roy Welensky is that he has no responsibility for matters of foreign affairs. The Government must also recognise that the Commonwealth does not revolve around Sir Roy, or even around his country. Cecil Rhodes has been dead these sixty years. It is a

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wider Commonwealth now, a Commonwealth of equals and a multi-racial Commonwealth.
But if the day of Rhodes is buried with the past, so is the day of the charter company, of powerful corporations who regard themselves as being above the law, as a State within a State, as a State above any national or international disciplines. This is the problem—the influence, in Africa and here in London, the power, highly organised and secretly and subtly exercised of powerful and unscrupulous corporations, notably Union Minière and Tanganyika Concescessions and, linked with them, the British South Africa Company.
Let no one under-rate the power of these pressures which have been brought to bear, directly or indirectly, on Westminster. They permeate the Establishment—£145 million of assets, with their full power mobilised and deployed against the United Nations. It would take me far too long this afternoon to name all the distinguished persons presently or previously linked with those countries, including a leading figure in the Institute of Directors, noble Lords in another place, lords far from political cyphers, ex-Ministers and, until they became Ministers, more than one Member from the present Government, including one of Her Majesty's Secretaries of State—and a member of the blood Macmillan at that.
All money talks and big money talks loudest of all. I wish that we had the Leader of the House here—
Mr. John Biggs-Davison rose—
Mr. Wilson: —as Chairman of the Conservative Party. Could he stand with his hand on his heart and say that none of these companies contributed to Tory Party election funds at the last General Election?
There is one thing we do know. They have hired an expensive and glossy firm of public relations counsellors to handle their propaganda, headed by the former chief of the propaganda department of the Conservative Central Office, a gentleman who also handles the account of Portugal in this country, on the Angola question, and also that of Spain, who boats of his contacts among Ministers
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and whom the Daily Mail interviewed for an article on Wednesday. Explaining the whole thing away, he said:
"Well, you see, there I was on holiday in Spain with Selwyn Lloyd—"
in passing I should like to know how many other Ministers have gone to Spain by his arrangement—
"when Charles Waterhouse rang me up and asked me if I would take on the job…"
and so it went on for a whole page.
Does anyone think that this public relations firm, out of 200 such firms in the country has so much expertise that it was given this job not because of its contacts with hon. and right hon. Members opposite? We want to know how much influence all this money and advertising commands. It is an extraordinary commentary on our democracy that Captain Waterhouse should now have far more influence over public policy when he is outside the House than he ever had as a Member. Do not the Government now realise what this means for our image abroad and how urgent it is that they repudiate these pressures?
We have all said—the Security Council has said—that the immediate bar to peace and settlement in the Congo is the Katanga mercenaries. I have mentioned their power. They include some tough and unscrupulous fighters, among them some of the worst type of Algerian ultras. We shall not have peace until they are returned to the squalid purlieus from which they should never have been allowed to emerge.
Who pays these mercenaries? Does any one think for a moment that they could last for a week in Katanga if Union Minière and the companies associated with it withheld finance and other support from their paymasters? The Government should send for the financiers who owe British allegiance and instruct them now to withhold all further finance, including the taxes which they are illegally paying to Mr. Tshombe.
In the long run, Central Africa will be a healthier and safer place when economic groups which arrogate such power to themselves are internationalised and placed under the control of some responsible and independent authority.
Mr. Biggs-Davison rose—
Mr. Wilson: Finally, I call on the Government to assert unequivocally, and to make this the issue of confidence with their own supporters, that they will now accept the United Nations resolutions and back them to the full extent of their power.
Mr. Biggs-Davison: The right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) is a fair man and he is a Socialist. When he is discussing the great financial interests who may be interested in these affairs, would he like to complete the record and say something about the Transatlantic copper interests and certain elements on Wall Street who are also interested? Surely as a Socialist and as an Englishman he should say something about those things as well.
Mr. Wilson: I should be delighted to have all that the hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) can tell me about those firms, but no one has yet alleged that they have tried to influence hon. Members through engaging public relations firms and in other improper ways.
Mr. Biggs-Davison: Their influence is in the United Nations.
Mr. Wilson: Finally, I do not take quite so Marxist an interpretation of these things as does the noble Lord. To all except those who share the views of hon. Members opposite—and I hope that the Government Front Bench will accept this—the future of the world depends not only on the survival of the United Nations, but on its development in prestige and power to the point where world government begins to become a reality.
In a defence debate six years ago, the then Minister of Defence, now the Prime Minister, said some very wise words which I will now repeat. It happens that they were said in the context of disarmament, but the words are of a wider application:
"The control must provide effective international, or if we like supranational, authority invested with real power. Hon. Members may say that this is elevating the United Nations, or whatever may be the authority, into something like world government. Be it so, it is none the worse for that. In the long run this is the only way out for mankind."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd March, 1955; Vol. 537, c. 2181.]
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I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. I believe that those words embody a permanent, indeed, a transcendental truth.
What is at stake in this debate is not only the future of the Congo and the restoration of peace in that shattered and distracted country, it is not only the good name of this country throughout the world and with it our ability to give what I believe is our unique contribution to peace, it is also the immediate survival and then the growth and development of an international authority on which millions of citizens of the world have pinned their hopes. In that sense, above all, this is an historic debate.
There is, therefore, a heavy responsibility on hon. Members. There is an even heavier responsibility on the Government. We have seen this week that they have not been able to cling to the policy to which I am sure they would have wished to have clung, because they do not have control over the party which is supposed to support them in the House. When a Government no longer have the power to govern and when they are in pawn to a group of imperious and irresponsible back benchers, they owe one last debt to the country. There is now only one honourable course left to them. A Government who put this country above party and peace above power would take that course and resign.
5.28 p.m.
Mr. R. H. Turton: The right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) has just delivered himself of an inaccurate and hypocritical speech. He asked how hypocritical right hon. Gentlemen could be, but I ask the Socialist Party if it sees where he is leading it in its foreign policy. He said that he believed in a multi-racial Commonwealth. So do hon. Members on this side of the House. He knows perfectly well that only if European and African can live together and work together and build up industries together in Africa will there be peace and order in Africa.
The right hon. Gentleman talked about lobbies. I am surprised that a Yorkshireman who absconded to Lancashire should use American terms. We have a lobby, and it is a very good one.

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It reports what we say openly in the House, and what we say privately in private committees. That is our parliamentary system of lobbies. "Lobby" is an American term which is used in America, unfortunately, that is what happens in Congress, has happened in the past, and is happening now.
Mr. H. Wilson rose—
Mr. Turton: The right hon. Gentleman must take some of his own medicine. I shall not give way to him during the course of this speech, because he would not give way to my hon. Friends. The right hon. Gentleman must know that the extensive military operations in the Congo today are attributed by many to the American "copper lobby". At a time when there is a surplus production of copper in the world, it is to the advantage of certain American interests to see that the copper mines in Katanga stop production, as indeed their production has been stopped within the last few days.
There is another interest which the right hon. Gentleman, who at the moment is an innocent in foreign affairs, must realise.
Mr. H. Rhodes: It was a very good speech.
Mr. Turton: If that is the experience of the hon. Gentleman, I am surprised that he has changed since the last time we met in Hong Kong.
The Russians would dearly like to increase their supplies of copper. As I imagine the right hon. Gentleman knows, copper is one of the few metals in which Russia is not self-sufficient, and therefore it is to the interests of the Soviet that the Gizengist forces should have control of Katanga.
Those are the lobbies, and it is not in the interests of this country, or of the Labour Party, that the right hon. Gentleman should deliver that kind of speech.
Now let us come to the issue. I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman has told us that the Labour Panty is not in favour of a cease-fire at the moment, and would be in favour of bombs being sent, with the restrictive purposes of the announcement last Friday. As the House knows, I am not in complete agreement with what has happened during the last
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eight days in London. I cannot understand, and having listened to the Lord Privy Seal today I still cannot understand, how he and the Government, who received a request on 21st October for 24 1,000 lb. blockbuster bombs, could have regarded them as being necessary for those aims which the Lord Privy Seal mentioned of the operations of the United Nations in Katanga.
I cannot understand why the Government, who received that request on 21st October and studied it until 7th December, did not realise in that interval of time that one does not use 1,000 lb. bombs, as my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) put it at Question Time two days ago, for the purpose of destroying isolated aircraft or even air strips. I know that in the war bombs of 50 lb. or 100 lb. at most were used for immobilising air strips. Blockbuster bombs are designed for causing damage to large buildings, or causing heavy casualties among women and children.
The right hon. Gentleman, who said that he was opposed at that time to the operations at Suez, perpetrated a cruel and baseless slander on the Royal Air Force, which in those operations took particular care to see that civilian casualties were kept low. Now the same right hon. Gentleman supports the Government's decision, which I deplore, to send these blockbuster bombs to cause casualties among Africans.
I should like to ask the Lord Privy Seal another question. If the Government received that request for 24 1,000 lb. bombs on 21st October, and did not deal with the request until 7th December, why did they not, in the normal course of Commonwealth consultation, ask the Indian Government whether they had the bombs for the Canberras? We know from what Lord Dundee said in another place that two years ago the Indians were supplied with an ample quantity of 1,000 lb. bombs. What has happened to these bombs since then? Have they been dropped? Are they still in stock? Or was it perhaps that the Indian Government, like, I think, the vast majority of hon. Members in this House, and citizens in this country, would not tolerate such bombs being dropped in circumstances which would cause large

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casualties? I hope that we will get an answer to that, even though the Secretary-General of the United Nations has relieved us of the obligation to carry out the request. I still think that the House is not satisfied about all the details.
As to this Motion which the Government have tabled, I think that it is satisfactory in relation to the request for a cease-fire, but what they have not realised is what will happen if the request is refused. In his inaccurate speech the right hon. Member for Huyton said that our request for a ceasefire was backed by no member of the United Nations. He forgot that last night the N.A.T.O. Council, with the exception of one member, supported the request for a cease-fire. Why has that not come to the attention of the right hon Gentleman? It is not fair to say that no single ally supported it. The whole of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, except the United States, supported it.
Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that a formal decision of the N.A.T.O. Council was taken supporting the United Kingdom proposal?
Mr. Turton: I am not saying that a formal decision was taken. I am saying that the N.A.T.O. Council made it quite clear in a communiqué issued last night—and if the right hon. Gentleman had taken the trouble he would have seen it on the tape—that it would have supported it, but the United States objected. Why do the United States object to a cease-fire at the moment?
Let us recapitulate. We have not heard what has been happening in Katanga in the last few days since the Government dealt with the request to which I have referred. The Prime Minister said earlier that it was on the Thursday night that the Government authorised the bombs to be collected. The next day the hospital was mortared and casualties were caused. I have here an eye-witness report of what happened on Sunday. It says:
"U.N. aircraft on Sunday…used rockets and machine-guns against the following installations…and the railway at Kolwezi…fuel oil tanks which are in flames; the high tension sub-power station feeding the factories of Luilu outside the city; the railway instal
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lations of BCK…the factories of METALKAT…and the residential quarter. In addition the hospital of the power station of Marinel situated in complete isolation in the bush 50 kilometres north of Kolwezi was also attacked. In these neighbourhoods, there was nothing which could be defined as a military objective."
Is that really what the Opposition are supporting now? Is that the kind of thing they want to happen again? We know that the hospital at Jadotville has been bombed with many casualties in the maternity ward. Does that not revolt the consciences of those in the Socialist and Liberal parties? I agree that the Liberal Party supports the Government's request for a cease-fire, but subject, I think, to so many reservations as to make it not quite clear whether it would be granted. But the Opposition want these operations to be continued to the bitter, bitter end.
My present worry is that I am not quite satisfied that the Lord Privy Seal has made quite clear what is going to happen if the fighting goes on. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister intends to reply to the debate and I would inform him that my hon. Friends and I would like him to know—and I regret that the Prime Minister and the Lord Privy Seal are not here at the moment, but I hope that the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will bring this to their notice—that we have certain doubts about the debate and that we were not satisfied with the Motion tabled by the Government.
In my experience of the House I have never known a time when, if a substantial body of hon. Members of the Government party put down a Motion, only one Joint Under-Secretary and one Assistant Whip were present to listen to the debate—[Interruption.] I know that the Joint Under-Secretary is always very courteous and accurate in the messages he passes on. I should like to tell the House—and the Government through him—that although I am very much in favour of the request for the cease-fire, I want more than that. I regret the decision the Government took last week when they agreed, with those reservations, to send the bombs. I think that, even now, they have not yet thought out what would happen if the request for a cease-fire was refused.

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The Government should tonight give a clear undertaking that, if the fighting is going on at the end of this week, they will not provide any support—financial or otherwise, of a voluntary character—to the United Nations operations in the Congo.
Mr. Percy Collick: Up the rebels.
Mr. Turton: Is it so wrong to try to stop women and children being butchered? [HON. MEMBERS "Suez."] Why do hon. Gentleman say "Suez" and continue to attack British soldiers and airmen who took every opportunity open to them to avoid casualties in that particular operation? On this occasion, however, it is quite clear that the United Nations forces as well as—and we might as well admit this—some of Mr. Tshombe's forces, are now out of hand. It is up to all men of good will, hon. Members of both parties in this House and men in all countries, to try to stop this fighting.
If it does not stop we must use what methods we have. The only method I know available to us is this voluntary contribution to the operations in the Congo. That should be stopped after Saturday if there is no satisfactory conclusion. I urge the Government to take immediate steps—to use their initiative either through the United Nations or otherwise—to secure a meeting between President Tshombe and Prime Minister Adoula. I know that they have made efforts in the past but now is the time, before we get chaos complete in the Congo, for another determined effort to be made either by Her Majesty's Government or, perhaps, with their help, by some outstanding figure in the Commonwealth or in the United Nations.
This is not the time, when Africa is going up in flames, when chaos threatens and when no one except a few copper magnates or the Russians will benefit, to be playing party politics such as were played by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton. I hope that the Prime Minister will make it clear—
Mr. A. V. Hilton: Where is the Prime Minister?
Mr. Geoffrey Hirst: On a point of order. Is there any way you
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can guide me, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, as to how the House can show its displeasure at neither the Prime Minister nor the Lord Privy Seal being present?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker(Sir Gordon Touche): That is not a point of order.
Mr. Turton: I would find it very difficult to go into the Lobby in support of Her Majesty's Government on this Motion unless I got a clear undertaking on two points which are clearly contained in the Amendment to the Government Motion which my hon. Friends and I placed upon the Order Paper but which, I regret, Mr. Speaker was not able to call. That Amendment proposed to add at the end:
"and urges Her Majesty's Government to make it clear that in the event of a refusal of this formal request, voluntary contributions by Her Majesty's Government for the maintenance of hostilities would cease forthwith; and furthermore urges Her Majesty's Government to take the initiative towards arranging a meeting between Prime Minister Adoula and President Tshombe for the purpose of furthering peace and stability in the Congo".
This past week has been a bad one for the Government and for the United Nations. We must realise what are the aims of the United Nations. I believe in the United Nations and I want to see it work, but I know perfectly well that it cannot become involved in fights between a central and a provincial Government, because it was not designed for that purpose. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bosworth (Mr. Wyatt) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton that it is our duty to support the United Nations, right or wrong. If we feel that the action it is taking is not in conformity with resolutions that have been passed—and is not in conformity with its aims—it is our duty, as a nation, to take what action we can to bring it hack to its proper aims.
If that is not done we shall have anarchy in the world. I beg the Prime Minister, when he speaks tonight, to realise that there are many people of all political parties, both inside and outside the House, who are deeply disturbed at the decision he took on that Thursday night on the offer of bombs, at the happenings now in Katanga and at the

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parlous state in which the United Nations is in in the eyes of much of the world.
5.48 p.m.
Mr. J. Grimond: In a debate on Katanga it is a considerable honour to follow the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton). On this matter his political activities have been considerably more consistent and very much more successful than those of the Government.
I wholly share his view that it seems extraordinary that at this stage neither the Prime Minister, the Lord Privy Seal, nor the Leader of the House is present. It is regrettable that they should not have listened to his speech when he has taken such a prominent part in this matter. I dare say, however, that my speech will be more effective addressed to him than to such a vacillating Government. So far, the Government have had the worst of all possible worlds and if the Lord Privy Seal is in any doubt that the world at large is suspicious of our loyalty to the United Nations I do not think his speech this afternoon will have done anything to improve the situation.
To take one case. He tells us again and again that the Government are not in favour of force in Katanga but they were in support of the current operation. They proposed to supply 24 1,000-lb. bombs. To say that one is not in favour of force and then to say that one is prepared to supply 1,000-lb. bombs to carry on operations is clearly meaningless. I do not want to go over the history of the matter again but I share the astonishment that the Government took five or six days considering whether to supply this weapon or not. They must have been advised that it was an extraordinary weapon to destroy aircraft on the ground. Then after consideration they decided not to supply it.
Mr. Turton: It was six weeks or even longer.
Mr. Grimond: Yes, weeks. They then came to the conclusion in two days that they should not supply the bombs and they asked the House to believe that the reason why they changed their minds was an obscure speech made by Dr. Linner. Our Embassy in Sweden did not
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even bother to report the correction to it to the Foreign Office so little importance did they attach to it. We know why they changed their minds. The noble Lord has told us. They were afraid of a section of the Conservative Party. The whole episode throws discredit on the Government, and I do not wonder that our whole position in the United Nations has become more suspect than ever. The final result is that we are at loggerheads with the United States at the very moment when we are desperately trying to form a common policy on Berlin.
Like the right hon. Gentleman, I too am a strong supporter of the United Nations. I believe, for one thing, that it is the most hopeful way in which we shall get the emergent nations to take some responsibility in world affairs. It is the only embryo world authority that we have. It is a meeting place for East and West. Finally, things would have been worse in the Congo had the United Nations not taken a hand.
Having said that, I cannot say that I think everything done in its name is above criticism. Having had some experience of serving with international organisations, I always fear that it may take on too much especially in a situation like the Congo which is practically without parallel in recent history. Many of the phrases we use about the Congo are practically meaningless, even the elementary phrase we use about law and order. I am not sure what the law in the Congo which we are trying to enforce may be. To send out what must amount to a brigade or two of troops to do anything in a country practically without communications and getting on for the size of Western Europe would be an undertaking of immense difficulty even for an organisation with large resources and great experience in management, neither of which the United Nations can claim to have.
We complain sometimes about our bureaucracy, but if any of us have served in an international organisation we very soon come to see the great advantages of the British Civil Service and British forces and, for that matter, those of the French, too. All this is lacking in the United Nations, but whose fault is that? The United Nations is made up of its member States and it

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is up to the member States to provide the forces, the civil servants and the organisation to do this kind of job.
I do not think it is any use jobbing too far back about how the current situation arose. Certainly I regret—I deeply regret—many of the things which are alleged to have been done within the last few days. Certainly I do not think the prestige of the United Nations is going to be founded on the successful waging of war, but to impose a ceasefire at once without any conditions would seem to me quite unrealistic. It might be to undo none of the damage which may have been done and at the same time to throw away any possible advantage which may have come from the last few weeks. It is surely impossible to have a cease-fire just like that in a situation such as exists in Katanga. The Government cannot say that they were against the objectives of this operation. On the contrary, they were prepared to supply bombs for it. They should, therefore, say now that they believe a ceasefire is justified but only on certain conditions.
What are the objectives, the purposes, of the immediate operation in Katanga, or rather, what should those objectives and purposes be? One is, by general agreement, to get rid of the foreign mercenaries suspected of stirring up—I think, rightly suspected—a great deal of trouble in the Province. I think that this is a matter of the first importance. The settlement of this question with Mr. Tshombe may well be an essential preliminary to stopping a growing influx of mercenaries into the Congo. As has been mentioned already, if Mr. Gizenga is supplied with large numbers of mercenaries and others from behind the Iron Curtain this will be an extremely serious situation and one in which we shall not be able to take a strong line unless we have already done so with Mr. Tshombe. I urge on the separatists here that they are playing into the Communists' hands by encouraging separatism in the Congo just now.
The second objective which I think we should certainly have in mind—I think we are in agreement about this—is to get Mr. Adoula and Mr. Tshombe together with the purpose of trying to settle the framework of the Government of the Congo. I should imagine that that has to be done now on a federal
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system. This meeting should be under United Nations auspices and I fully agree that we shall have to see that those auspices can carry out what they say they intend. It may be best to arrange a meeting simply between Adoula, Tshombe and Mr. Gizenga or it may be that those on the spot will tell us that there is more chance of success if other African leaders are brought in as has been suggested by the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) and I believe supported by the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton. This is the second essential condition of a cease-fire.
The next point I make is that, while I personally believe that a federation is the best answer to the Congo question, I do not believe we can rule out changes in the future. The two conditions I have mentioned I laid down as the short-term conditions for getting some sort of law and order into the State, but it seems that one of the difficulties of the United Nations is that it has always had a contradiction tied round its neck. It has got into the position of saying, "We are not going into the Congo to impose a political decision, or a political solution". But it also says, "You must accept a unitary State."
If ever there was a political decision this is it. This, clearly, is a political decision. What I think it should say is that the United Nations is in the Congo for the purpose of getting the place going again, for stopping famine and at least trying to stop open warfare, getting rid of the mercenaries and trying to get some co-operation between the Central Government and the Prime Minister.
Mr. Ronald Bell: I think I am right is saying that the Security Council has never said that there should be a unitary solution. I think that is a red herring started off by the General Assembly. The Security Council has referred only to the territorial integrity of the Congo.
Mr. Grimond: I am much obliged. I am a little in doubt, as a putative Privy Councillor, about how much time I should take in speaking in this debate, but if the hon. Member would took at the Resolution debated on 24th November he will see that the Security Council came very near to saying that. In any

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case, it should distinguish between the short-term act and the long-term position, and I think that it should admit that in the short term it has to take a certain number of political decisions to get the State going again.
In the long term I think it should, equally, make clear that there must be room for change. Indeed, I think it would be wholly wrong to give the impression that the United Nations for all time is going to enforce on the Congo the political organisation left there by the Belgians. Goodness knows, everything about this situation is topsy-turvy, but it would be most peculiar if people like myself who are engaged in saying that a federation should not be forced on the people of Northern Rhodesia against their will then suddenly find that one day Sir Roy Welensky has invoked the United Nations for the purpose of forcing Northern Rhodesia into federation. I do not think that is a position I should encourage.
I believe that if the Government would attach these two conditions as essential preliminaries to any attempt at a ceasefire, they would have the advantage of getting back into step with the United States. I do not see that it would be contradictory to whatever consistency there has been up to now in their policy. If a cease-fire is achieved, and achieved as I think it can only justifiably be with the conditions I have outlined, it has got to be guaranteed. If it is to be guaranteed it means having more men on the ground in the Congo. One of the great difficulties which has led to the demand for bombs and shooting at hospitals and so forth is that if one wants to keep even the minimum of order in the main centres of the Congo the United Nations has to put in far more men on the ground.
It is the lack of personnel on the ground which has driven the United Nations to these drastic actions with bombs Here I think also there is a lesson for our own defence. We cannot do this sort of operation with bombers and fighters. We have to have men and if they are to be effective they have to be supplied by the members of the United Nations.
Suppose this were to fail. Suppose an attempt to bring Adoula and Tshombe together failed. Suppose we failed to
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get rid of the mercenaries, and chaos went on in the Congo. There are only two possible alternative results. One is that the United Nations would have to pull out, and that would be an unmitigated disaster for the world and for ourselves. Do not let us delude ourselves about that. I am shocked by the obvious pleasure some people have taken about the difficulties of this operation, looking on and licking their lips with anticipation that it will not succeed, or suggesting that we could economise a lot if we did not pay our subscription. It would be absolutely fatal to the interests of this country if the United Nations failed and had to pull out. It would be a disaster for the whole of Africa and probably for the rest of the world.
The ony alternative is to go on to a prolonged full-scale war and that would be equally bad. If the Government will make it crystal clear that they are going to act as loyal members of the United Nations and that they see they cannot simply impose a cease-fire at a given moment without making some provision for the next moves and laying down some conditions, we have a chance. I will not say it is a chance of turning these events to good purpose, but it is one of getting out of the worst disasters which might flow from a policy of vacillation which has been followed over the last eighteen months. Do not let us delude ourselves. The chief reason why we should support the United Nations—although not the only one—is that today it is a prime British interest.
6.5 p.m.
Mr. Peter Smithers: The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) will forgive me if I do not follow him in detail. I want to revert to the speech of the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson), with which the debate was opened. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I accept the correction. It was opened from the Opposition Front Bench by the right hon. Gentleman. This is, indeed, a day for taking large points in debate, I observe.
I have not had the good fortune to be in the House on many occasions since last July. Early in September I went to the United Nations as a delegate, and I have been there nearly all the time.

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Until the evening before last I was sitting in the Fifth Committee. Since July there has been a change on the Opposition Front Bench. The right hon. Member for Huyton has replaced his predecessor in charge of foreign affairs. I therefore looked forward with keen anticipation to hearing his lively intelligence applied to the grave problems that we are debating today.
They are grave problems, or at least they seemed so to me, as best I was able to understand them at the New York end, and I thought that today we would hear questions posed by the right hon. Member for Huyton about the present objectives of the United Nations its future aims; what its objectives ought to be; the probable outcome of the present course of events—which he appears to support—and whether the means being used are proper to the United Nations.
I thought that we would hear the right hon. Gentleman ask whether a unified Congo is at present within our grasp what British interests are involved, and why we have arrived in this position. I would have thought that those were the questions which any critic of the Government would be obliged to answer himself before making his criticisms.
The right hon. Gentleman did not deal with a single one of those great questions, so I propose to revert to some of the points with which he did deal. He first accused the Government of seeking to frustrate the resolutions of the United Nations. This is a very large question, which would involve an enormous amount of detail, and I merely ask the House to accept it from me, for what it may be worth—as an observation of a Member who has been intimately concerned with these matters in great detail in New York in recent months—that that accusation has not a shred of evidence to support it.
The right hon. Gentleman also spoke of the contempt with which Mr. Tshombe had rejected the cease-fire appeal of the Government. That argument disposes of any suggestion that the Government or any of their supporters are agents of Mr. Tshombe or any of the other people alleged to be associated with him. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that we all—including the party opposite—want to see the fighting stopped. I dare
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say that we do, but the right hon. Gentleman did not explain how the present course of events is likely to produce a stop to the fighting unless there is a formal move to do so. How, indeed, when the United Nations is becoming more and more deeply committed at every step, can we expect the fighting to stop, unless there is a vigorous initiative?
The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that a cease-fire, when it came about, must involve the consent and good will of the people of Katanga. How in the world can anybody imagine that shooting up their hospitals and other installations will win their good will? That is a preposterous proposition. The right hon. Gentleman's own argument that the good will of the people must be secured is the strongest I have yet heard in favour of the Government's policy of asking for a cease-fire.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to Article 100 of the Charter. As far as I remember that Article it lays it down that member States undertake not to seek to influence members of the United Nations Secretariat in the exercise of their duty. That is a very proper undertaking. The right hon. Gentleman put forward the extraordinary proposition that this would preclude any Government from making representations to the United Nations as an official body. I should have thought that anybody with even the barest experience of constructing any sort of legal document would appreciate the meaning of that Article. It means that a member State must not go to an individual, as an individual, and seek to persuade him to subvert the policy of the United Nations.
But when Her Majesty's Minister and Ambassador in New York go to see the Secretary-General on a formal occasion is it to be thought that they are trying to persuade him not to do his duty? I never heard a more childish argument put before the House. Formally, the Secretary-General of the United Nations represents in his person the whole body of the organisation—and who has more right to make representations to him about United Nations policy than a member of the Security Council and one of the principal supporters of the organisation?
In fact, the right hon. Gentleman's speech, which failed to deal with any of the great questions which, in all conscience, the House should deal with,

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was a jigsaw puzzle of rumours and unfounded allegations. Every kind of suspicion that could be brought to bear upon the Government was put forward. The right hon. Gentleman constantly referred back to the time of Suez. He took my memory back with him. It was during the debates on Suez that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, on every possible occasion, sought to put the very worse construction on the actions of the British Government. His words were echoed night after night by the Egyptian radio.
Today, we have heard the right hon. Member for Huyton saying that the British are unpopular because of what they are doing, and that they are being snubbed in the United Nations. I do not know whether or not that is true. But the right hon. Gentleman puts about the kind of rumour which is most likely to contribute to this state of affairs. I find the change on the Front Bench since I left the House in July not at all a promising one. [Laughter.] I mean the Opposition Front Bench.
In September, 1960, I first came into contact with the Congo problem. I walked into the Security Council on my first visit to the United Nations. There. a debate was in progress which resulted in a great triumph for the United Nations in the exclusion of the great Powers and, with it, Soviet influence from the Congo. Two nights ago I sat as a member of the Fifth Committee and listened to the introduction of a financial resolution by the Tunisian delegate in relation to the Congo operation. I could not help reflecting upon the transformation that has come over the scene in the Congo between those two events. It is proper to ask ourselves the reason for this, because it holds the key to the problem.
There are two discernible United Nations objectives. The trouble is that they are in conflict. The first is the elimination of mercenaries and the second the procurement of an agreed settlement within the frontiers of a single State. Each is an admirable objective in itself, but the elimination of mercenaries is of limited relevance. It is important, but it cannot provide a solution to the problem.
On the other hand, Britain, with her experience in Ghana and Nigeria, ought
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to be able to apply the lessons we have learned in constructing unitary States from heterogeneous African components. I sat for some years in the humble post of Parliamentary Private Secretary, in the room of a great Secretary of State, watching the construction of the Nigerian nation as it is today. There were in Nigeria violent centrifugal forces, very powerful local rivalries, hatreds and differences, and it was only after a very long, patient and detailed series of negotiations that we finally brought all those elements within the boundaries of a single nation State.
There were no mercenaries to deal with; the problem was complicated and difficult enough without them. If anyone believes that mercenaries are the sole cause of the secessionist movement in the Congo they should remember that the same situation existed in Ghana and Nigeria, and that it was cured only by a course of patient negotiation over a period of time.
The Congo is far larger, and the elements may be even more diverse, but I am sure that nobody of any experience or knowledge of Africa would imagine that it would be a simple matter to bring a unified State out of those elements in a short time. If to that already difficult problem we add the presence of white mercenaries, it becomes even more difficult. That is a reason for extra caution, prudence and patience. It is not a reason for precipitate action.
In my view there were three errors in the United Nations' handling of this question. First, the mercenaries were—and still are—far too broadly and loosely classified. There is still a tendency to regard as a mercenary anybody critical of United Nations' policy who happens to live in Katanga. That is not so. Secondly, there has been a belief that the problem of mercenaries is the main one, and that if it could be solved the other problems will solve themselves. That is not so either, although the problem is an important one.
The third—and disastrous—mistake has been to think that the problem of the mercenaries should be dealt with by force. It could be dealt with in that way, but not without prejudicing the main objective, which is an agreed solution in the Congo. No thoughtful person recalling events in Ghana and

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Nigeria would imagine that if we had used force to try to impose upon local communities a situation that they did not like there would have been the smallest prospect of concord in these matters. It seems to me, therefore, that the United Nations has been engaged upon quite legitimate objectives, but which have been in conflict with each other.
The trouble is that passions were aroused on this issue. To remove the mercenaries the United Nations were forced to occupy positions. As a result, violent resentments have been encountered. That has required defensive action, and that, in turn, has required the occupation of yet more positions. We have seen fierce fighting, the destruction of airfields, trains, bridges, power plants and industries—and incidental civilian damage which is quite inseparable from warfare in any shape or form—and this operation is officially classified as a peace and security operation!
We must ask ourselves—and the right hon. Gentleman made no attempt to pose this question—what course of action has resulted in the United Nations at this moment being engaged in destroying the resources and the people of a country whom it is supposed to help and protect. How has it come about that it is in the position of having to defend itself in this destructive manner at all? It is because its two objectives are in flat contradiction with each other. If the United Nations is to assert its authority by force, on the one hand, then it is clear that it is the end of its rôle as a peaceful mediator, on the other. Every day that passes in the present process sees the attainment of that second and greater objective disappearing further into the distance. This alone is a sufficient reason for the cease-fire for which the Government have called.
I wish to consider for a moment the future prospects. This is a vast problem in sheer geographical extent, and the United Nations can only hope to hold at best but a few key points in an enormous territory. The United Nations forces are already tied down in defensive military positions in a number of places. While this process continues, other more formidable secessions are in the making elsewhere. In other words, it is an ever-expanding commitment to what
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appears to be a hopeless task. With what resources are the United Nations to pursue this commitment? Its resources in manpower are woefully small. As a matter of set policy, and properly, the great Powers are excluded.
Here, I should like to make a plea for the unfortunate Swedes and Irish who, in good faith and with the best intentions, have committed themselves to this operation. I realise that other nations have done likewise, but those two particularly are not African nations and they have no direct interest in this problem. They are committed to this great operation. They are small in numbers. They cannot produce more troops and, I dare say, cannot see any way out of the plight in which their troops find themselves. Therefore, the manpower problem in itself is very serious. If the operation is to continue and to extend, from where are the forces coming?
Then there is the financial aspect. The finances to continue the operation are not at this moment within sight. Unless the United States takes over this vast and growing burden itself, I do not see how the operation can continue. I should have thought that the United States, in this troubled world, had a better use for its money than this.
This is the policy to which we are asked to give "genuine support" by the Amendment of the Leader of the Opposition. If we are to support the present state of affairs and policy in the Congo, it really is up to the Opposition to say what is at the end of the road. The right hon. Member for Huyton gave no indication of that whatever. I trust that the Leader of the Opposition tonight will be able to give us a clear picture of how he thinks we may come out of this operation to the benefit of people in Africa and elsewhere.
I must also observe that inherent in the Opposition's attitude is the same contradiction which exists in and has bedevilled United Nations policy. The Opposition call for an agreed settlement. They are anxious to have it, but are not willing to stop the fighting. Neither are they willing in any way to compromise on the question of mercenaries in order to bring about, for the time being, a more peaceful situation. They suffer from exactly the same conflict as that

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from which the United Nations finds itself suffering.
Mr. Collick: I have been following the hon. Gentleman's speech with very great interest, but I have not been able to discover whether he is in support of the United Nations action in the Congo or against it. I think that he ought to make that clear.
Mr. Smithers: I think that I shall have made it clear to the hon. Member by the time that I have finished my speech.
The Government are accused of being equivocating, vacillating, and things of that sort. I should have imagined that any thoughtful person, studying this situation and the conflicting interests and loyalties involved in it, would concede that it is one of exceeding difficulty. There are the dictates of our own experience in our own territories which must have told most of us that something was being attempted which might not be possible of achievement and that it might be being attempted in the wrong manner.
On the other hand, there is a desire to support the United Nations, sometimes even when we disagree with it, because that is, rightly, our policy. Yet again, there has been a desire to fall in with the wishes and interests of our allies if they were in conflict with ours. In addition, there has been, and is, a great deal of uncertainty about the facts of the situation.
I wish to make this general observation about vacillation. A bogus self-confidence in a truly perplexing situation would not have been a mark of wisdom. It would have been a mark of folly. I think that the Government have been right to suspend judgment on many of the great issues involved. They have temporised and waited on events. They have been right in so doing, because events have been far from clear and because it has not been possible to arrive at a final judgment about whether we should go with our allies in courses on which we disagreed and about whether we should support the United Nations if we thought that what it was doing was incorrect. However, no Government can avoid coming to an ultimate conclusion when faced with a harsh situation, and the Government have come to an ultimate conclusion. I think that they are
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right. They have called for a halt in hostilities. I came to this conclusion last Saturday. They announced their conclusion on Tuesday. Therefore, I do not think they have done at all badly.
Mr. Collick: Poor show.
Mr. Smithers: If it be a question of temporising with events and being surrounded by all the grave responsibilities by which this country is surrounded in this matter, and if I have to choose between taking a hasty decision and waiting a little longer, I am in favour of delay. If the Government erred in favour of waiting and taking time to consider the matter, I think that they were right to do so.
The people in the Congo are in the midst of disaster. Their country is being put to fire and sword. The United Nations is engaged in a dangerous slide which might end, as other hon. Members have said, in its own destruction. The free world is pouring out resources needed for a graver struggle of which this is only a part. I do not doubt that the time has come when a halt to the fighting must be called. Yet I think that we should be wise to recognise the great difficulty which this operation presents. Even if the United Nations was politically able to agree to call a halt, it would then be exceedingly difficult, in effect, to carry it out in the territory, even more difficult as long as the great Powers continue to provide finance for the operation.
I turn to the Amendment in the name of my right hon. and hon. Friends, which advocates a withholding of our voluntary contribution. I wonder whether I might trespass on the patience of hon. Members to say a word or two on that and on what, in fact, is the situation.
I am sure that my right hon. and hon. Friends are right in thinking that finance is the key, because, as the United Nations is constituted, an enormous majority of the member nations provide a very small percentage of the finance. As long as that large majority of member nations continues to vote finance for various projects, the great Powers who actually raise the money are obligated to subscribe it. There is a sort of cycle of perpetual motion which must be attacked at some point. If my hon. Friends wish to attack, finance is the point to attack.

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There is at present before the Fifth Committee a resolution which decides to continue the authorisation of expenditure up to the end of 1962, appropriates 80 million dollars for the period up to the end of June, 1962, apportions the sum to be raised among the member nations, and provides for certain other things, and then appeals for voluntary contributions from some members, with a special contribution from Belgium. This is an authorising and financing resolution.
The question whether or not we are obligated to pay anything under such a resolution simply does not arise at present. Therefore, I think that the course which my right hon. and hon. Friends are advocating in their Amendment is premature. I do not think that it is appropriate to the present situation at the United Nations. If they wish to achieve the maximum influence on the course of events, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) said he wished to do, I do not think that this is the effective way to do it.
The United Nations voting system is different from ours. It is possible to vote negatively, positively or abstain. I dare say that if we vote positively on a resolution of this sort, we are to some extent indicating a certain course concerning payment when the time comes. If we vote negatively, we are also indicating a certain course.
What my right hon. and hon. Friends are seeking to do is to say that, in the event of there being no cease-fire, Britain should not pay her voluntary contribution. Thus, they will see that this is, first, a much narrower point than the issue now before the United Nations, and, secondly, that it prejudges the whole matter. We have no stick as far as the United Nations is concerned, but we have a carrot. This is a very hungry donkey. If my right hon. and hon. Friends really want to influence the course of events, it is folly to say now that Britain has no intention of paying her voluntary contribution. If they support the general aims of the United Nations in the Congo, as I think they do, they will not wish to pledge themselves at this stage to say that.
That is a decision which arises at a much later stage, when the present resolutions have been passed. To take such
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a decision now, amidst all the uncertainties, when so often we have been proved wrong about the events in the Congo because the unexpected has happened, would be a most imprudent thing to do. We are not obliged to cross that bridge now. We would he much better advised not to cross it now.
This is my personal view, but, if my right hon. and hon. Friends really wish to achieve the object which their Amendment seeks to achieve, they should urge the Government to abstain from voting on the finance resolution at the United Nations.
Sir Robert Grimston: My hon. Friend and I were together at New York last year. Do I take it from what he is saying that he is advocating rather stronger action than is proposed in our Amendment?
Mr. Smithers: No, that is not the case. I am advocating that we should not now take decisions which we do not have to take. We are not called upon to take any decisions about payment at this moment. We are merely called upon to decide whether we shall adopt a negative, positive or abstaining attitude on the finance resolution in the Fifth Committee. I am saying that the point of my right hon. and hon. Friends would be best achieved if they maintained a position of flexibility and kept the carrot hanging before the donkey. They are not obliged, and the Government are not obliged at this moment, to make any declaration about whether or not we should pay our voluntary contribution. I should have thought that they would wish to reserve that division until they saw what the situation was later.
Sir, it is easy enough to complain about the United Nations. It is easy to be harsh about it. It is easy to write it off. It is easy to appeal to people's prejudices. On the other hand, it is fatally easy to imagine that the United Nations can perform tasks far beyond its capabilities. The present calamity requires us to make an ice-cold analysis of what the position of the United Nations is.
In the comments I am about to make I hope that I shall not be thought to be harsh. I believe that they are true and we need to have reality in mind in making great decisions. First, the United

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Nations is not, and cannot be, impartial. I read correspondence in The Times this morning about an impartial United Nations force. There could be no such thing. The United Nations is no more impartial than the House of Commons is impartial. How could it be so? It is made up of partisans, as is the House of Commons. Secondly, we cannot expect the United Nations to be an effective body of control for an executive instrument. How can a United Nations force hope to be controlled by a body which is itself sharply divided?
Thirdly, we have to consider the character of the United Nations Assembly and the organisation. I do not mean to use the word derogatorily, but it is irresponsible in the technical sense of the word. I mean that it is a common event to see nations voting for resolutions which they know make nonsense. They do so for perfectly good political reasons, no doubt. It is also frequently to be seen that some delegations, not all of them from new member States, are unable to envisage the likely and probable consequences of the policies they advocate.
Finally, and much more dangerously, many delegations are unable to see not merely their own long-term self-interests but even their short-term self-interest. These things require a very great deal of experience and great nations as well as small ones make mistakes. To hand over anything like sovereign powers or executive authority to an organisation of this sort is burdening it very heavily indeed.
Then there is a tendency to be reluctant to use the veto. There is a tendency to circumvent the Security Council by going to the General Assembly. Both are dangerous tendencies. The veto was designed to be used, and the Assembly cannot be substituted for the Security Council without getting into dangerous water. We cannot make the United Nations a substitute for foreign policy in the last resort. We must have our own.
But I presume that it is a prime British interest that we should establish the rule of law in the world as best we can. No nation needs it more than we do. Unless we have the United Nations, I do not
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see what other body will be able to establish the rule of law. Therefore, we have to support it for all we are worth.
Mr. Anthony Fell: I have listened carefully to my hon. Friend and am full of admiration for what he has said about the United Nations and its shortcomings. However, there is not much consistency between what he has just said and what he said previously about the impossibility of the United Nations working at all.
Mr. Smithers: I did not say that the United Nations would not work at all. I said that we must not expect it to do things which it is not qualified and equipped to do. I am now saying that within its capabilities we must back it up for all we are worth if we ever hope to see any progress towards the world order envisaged by the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland. We cannot expect that to be achieved without an international organisation. Therefore, we must abandon Utopian ideas and patiently rebuild the United Nations upon the practical lines on which it has proved to be successful. The first step towards this is an attempt to liquidate the difficulties in which it now finds itself.
For this reason, the Government Motion is the proper course. It is the only hope of rescuing the United Nations from its plight and reasserting its authority in due course as a world organisation. No valid argument whatsoever has been adduced in support of the Opposition Amendment. I shall, therefore, support the Government in the Lobby tonight.
6.40 p.m.
Mr. A. Fenner Brockway: The subject we are discussing this afternoon is so grave that anyone who attempts to contribute to it must speak in a very serious and responsible way. There are two momentous issues. The first is the issue of the Congo itself—that great territory, whose future will be decisive for the whole Continent of Africa. The second is the issue of the United Nations.
I take the view that in a debate of this gravity everyone must speak with absolute frankness and honesty. I therefore want to begin by saying that I do not

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believe that the United Nations was justified in asking for the 1,000 lb. bombs. I do not claim to be an expert in this sphere, but I cannot possibly see how bombs of this dimension could have been useful for the purposes of defence, as was claimed. Indeed, I do not see how they could have been used for the limited objects which the Government laid down as conditions for their supply. It is honest for those who take this view to say it openly in the debate, but we must go on to say that this does not involve in any degree on our part absence of support for the United Nations. It does not mean that we can in any way decrease the aid which we will give for the United Nations contribution to a solution in the Congo.
Hon. Members opposite have made great play during the debate with the allegation that they are claiming a ceasefire while we on this side are opposing that claim. If there is to be a cease-fire, there must be two sides to the agreement. Already the United Nations has made a proposal in the Katanga for a cease-fire. The Katangan Government accepted it but, having accepted it, they repudiated it and defied it.
Hon. Members opposite, including the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Smithers), have ridiculed the attitude of the Labour Party in placing a great deal of emphasis upon mercenanries. The Katangan Government—Mr. Tshombe himself—entered into an agreement to withdraw the mercenaries from Katanga. He failed to do so, and it is only because he failed to do so, and failed to carry out the terms of the cease-fire into which he entered, that there has been a renewal of hostilities.
Mr. Smithers: I did not ridicule the attitude adopted towards mercenaries. I said that it was very important. Surely the hon. Gentleman who, I think, pretends to some knowledge and experience of Africa, would not assert that in these circumstances Africans would have nothing to say about this matter—only the mercenaries?
Mr. Brockway: The hon. Gentleman has anticipated what I am going to say, because I shall make that the main emphasis of my remarks. He has probably arrived in this country too late to have been watching the columns of The Times. If he had been watching them,
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he would have seen that I had made exactly that point in my contribution to its pages.
If the circumstances in Katanga had been different, if the mercenaries had come from Soviet Russia, or from Czechoslovakia, or from China, would the attitude of hon. Members opposite have been the same as it is today?
Mr. Ellis Smith: Action would have been all right then!
Mr. Brockway: If the great copper-belts in Katanga had been nationalised instead of belonging to the Union Minière and the large shareholdings of Tanganyika Concessions Limited, would their attitude towards the United Nations action in the Katanga have been the same?
Mr. Smithers: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's patience and kindness in giving way to me again. He does not take my point. The point I endeavoured to make, and I think it is a substantial one, is not whether mercenaries are good things or bad things, or of one political colour or another. I dare say they are all objectionable. My point was that they cannot be got out by force if we still hope to carry out negotiation in good will.
Mr. Brockway: I listened to the hon. Gentleman with great patience and a good deal of interest. In the end I followed his argument. I was very often unable to follow a point he was making, but I continued to listen and found a little later on that what he was saying cleared up what I had not understood before. I ask him to listen to my speech in a similar way and not to assume that everything I am saying is directed to what he said. There are other hon. Members in the House.
The point I was making was that, if the United Nations had now been acting in Katanga in circumstances in which the mercenaries were Russian, or Chinese, or Czechoslovakian, or Albanian, and if the copper belt there had been nationalised property rather than the property of Union Minière and Tanganyika Concession Limited, the attitude of hon. Members opposite would have been completely different.

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The right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) referred to the American copper interests. He put his finger on the real issue in Katanga today. He admitted that American copper interests are influencing American policy. Does he ask us to say that Union Minière and Tanganyika Concessions Limited are not influencing the policy of hon. Members opposite?
Mr. Stephen Hastings: Is the hon. Member aware that Mr. Tshombe himself has said that when he and his people are ready to take over, he intends to nationalise the Union Minière?
Mr. Brockway: Yes, and that may possibly be one reason why Mr. Tshombe is now losing control in Katanga and why the European representatives there—not only the mercenaries, but many who are associated with those companies in their normal life—are now assuming control of what is happening. When we come to sum up the situation in any kind of historical way, we shall find that it is those interests which are dominating the determination of the policy of the right hon. Gentlemen and hon. Members opposite.
Sir Godfrey Nicholson: is the hon. Member really saying—I am sure he is not—that every hon. Member on this side who takes a certain line is being subjected to improper pressure? Does he think that I, for example, have been got at by Union Minière? Does he think that any hon. Member on this side has been? He is being untrue to himself if he allows such an unpalatable point of view to influence him.
Mr. Brockway: I do not mean that, I did not say so, and I do not think that the hon. Baronet imagines me to mean it. He is, however, aware of the strength of the Katanga lobby.
Sir G. Nicholson: What does the hon. Gentleman mean? It is not my lobby.
Mr. Brockway: I am making no charge against the hon. Gentleman. I know him too well.
Sir R. Grimston: The hon. Member is making a smear against this side of the House.
Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: Filthy smear.
Mr. Brockway: Not a bit. I am well aware of the strength of the Katanga lobby and of the influence particularly of Tanganyika Concessions, Ltd. If the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton is saying that American policy is due to American copper interests, we have every right to come to the conclusion from the evidence before us that the policy of many in the party opposite is due to the pressures of the Katanga lobby and of the Union Minière.
Mr. Turton: The hon. Member has mentioned me three times in this connection. If he is challenging me with having a financial interest, direct or indirect, in Katanga, I deny it. I challenge him to say that outside, where I will then take appropriate legal action. He asks me what we would do if the position was otherwise. The reason why many hon. Members on this side support the position in Katanga is because we want the copper mines to go on. Katangans are employed in them. Whether they are a nationalised or an independent concern, we do not want to see chaos in Africa. We want to see multi-racial partnership there.
Mr. Brockway: If the right hon. Gentleman turns to the pages of the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will not find that I have made any suggestion—
Mr. Paul Williams: What does the hon. Member mean by the "Katanga lobby"?
Mr. Brockway: I am replying to an intervention by the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton. Perhaps his colleagues will allow me to complete the sentence. This is what I was saying to the right hon. Gentleman. It was never in mind that he was personally involved in any interests in this way. When he looks at my speech in the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will find that that is so.
I turn now to the subject to which I wanted to give my main emphasis. I admit straight away that in Katanga there are large tribal pressures which want autonomous and independent States and that, if it were not for those tribal pressures, the mercenaries and

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others who have been directing their military activities would not have had the power that they possess. Even Katanga itself is divided. There are the Balubas in Katanga who do not accept Tshombe as a leader and many of whom are now refugees in appalling conditions.
Sir G. Nicholson: And dying.
Mr. Brockway: Yes, they are in appalling conditions and dying. They are a distinctive tribe from those who support Tshombe. It is not only a matter of Katanga. It is a matter of the whole of the Congo, of the Bakonga in Leopoldville and towards the coast, of the Baluba, and of the Balunda. Therefore, I am not one of those who thinks that a solution of the Congo problem is just a simple matter of unification under a central Government.
The Congo is one of the most artificial political units in the whole Continent of Africa. That artificial unit comes from colonial policy dating from 1885 and the Berlin Congress, when Africa was divided up among the Powers according to how far their troops or their trading depots had reached. Races and tribes were divided and put under different flags without any reasons of race or tribe, often without any reason of geography. The whole Continent of Africa today is arbitrary and artificial in the frontiers of its States, and of all those territories the Congo is probably the most artificial and the most arbitrary.
In those circumstances, I am not one who thinks that the problem can simply be solved by enforcing a unitary State and saying that a central Government shall dominate the whole area. If there is to be a solution of that problem—and today we have to look not only at the immediate situation, but, as the hon. Member for Winchester said, at a solution at a longer distance as well—it cannot be imposed from outside. The Congo cannot have a solution imposed upon it by the United Nations or by any European or other external authorities. The solution must come from Africans themselves.
I have made a proposal for a solution of this problem. I was delighted to have had the support of four hon. Members on the Government side and I appreciate the courteous way in which they wrote when they might so easily have been
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controversial. The proposal which I have made as a constructive solution to this problem is that the United Nations should now ask the independent African States to appoint representatives to be sent as a mission of goodwill to try to bring about a solution of these political problems in the Congo.
There is already an advisory Committee to the Secretary-General, and there has already been a conciliation committee, but I do not think that these rule out the suggestion which I am now making. The advisory committee is a permanent committee in New York representing Governments which have forces in the Congo, while the conciliation committee went there for a time, assisted in the re-convening of Parliament and is not now functioning.
What we need now is some new element which will go into the Congo and seek to deal with the present problem in a way which will gain the confidence of the people of the Congo. That will not be gained if there is any contribution to the solution which comes from those who are regarded as colonialists. It will not be gained if it comes as a contribution from those who are regarded as having industrial interests there. It will gain the confidence of the people of the Congo only if it comes from the African peoples themselves.
I hope that this debate will end in a way which will make some contribution to bringing about a permanent solution of the Congo problem, and it was with that intention and for that purpose that I rose to speak this evening.
7.2 p.m.
Sir Robert Grimston: I have the feeling that this is one of those debates which, in the long run, will have its impact on great affairs and the way in which they shape in the future. Therefore, I approach it, I hope, with a due sense of humility.
In following the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) I should like to say that there are some things in his speech with which we could agree, but I would only say here that I thought it a great pity that he had to indulge in what, in an intervention—if I was discourteous to him, I apologise—I said was a general smear on hon.

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Members on this side of the House, because I hoped that he had not the kind of mentality which says that nobody can feel passionately on an issue unless either his pocket or his career was affected. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) always gives the impression that that is his horizon, and he particularly did so during the latter part of his speech today.
We on this side of the House are accused in some quarters of sabotaging the United Nations, but, the protests which my hon. Friends and I have been making are against the prostitution of the United Nations forces for purposes which neither the founders nor the Charter itself ever envisaged. That is all we have been saying. Last year, I had the privilege of being a member of our delegation to the United Nations, and, therefore, I have had some experience of seeing how that organisation works. I should like to give the House, very briefly, the impressions with which I returned, because I think it is an important background to what is happening in Katanga.
The United Nations is obviously what its members make it, but what distressed me so was to find that all the business there is done by means of package deals behind the scenes. The impression I had was that there were precious few delegations who ever thought about the Charter, except to pay lip-service to it in order to cover up a bargain that had been made.
I will give the House an illustration of that. When I arrived there were vacancies to be filled on the Security Council. If the United Nations is to give moral leadership, one would have thought that the members of the Security Council—I do not refer to the permanent members, but to the elected members—should be States whose records with the Security Council and the Charter are impeccable. I should have thought that that was the idea which should be striven for.
But what did I find? I found that Egypt was being unanimously recommended as a member, having for eight, nine or ten years been in open defiance of the Security Council on the question of Israeli ships going through the Canal. I asked, "Is this really how the United
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Nations works?" I was rather innocent, I must confess, at that time. I was told "You do not understand these things; that is part of a gentleman's agreement. Everybody votes for Egypt, and it does not matter about the Charter, so long as they get the vote of Egypt for somebody else whom they want on the Security Council." I am sorry to say that that is the atmosphere which permeates the whole organisation.
Now, against this background, I turn to Katanga. What is Mr. Tshombe's sin in the eyes of the United Nations? It is simply that, having gained independence, he dared to maintain stability and law and order with the help of nationals of the former colonial Power. That is his sin in the eyes of the United Nations. Quite apart from anything else, that is exactly' the policy which we ourselves pursue with our own emergent territories. We hope that, when they gain their independence, they will continue to use the advice and help that we can give them, and, in fact, we have gone so far in this House as to vote money to secure pensions for colonial servants if they stay on in a newly independent territory—a policy completely opposite from the United Nations policy in Katanga, which has been simply to try to destroy this successful multi-racial State—
Mr. Warbey: That was a lie.
Sir R. Grimston:—and for the one reason that Mr. Tshombe was employing, voluntarily and of his own free will, people of the former colonial Power.
In support of that, I want to quote from an article by a Daily Telegraph correspondent which appeared some months ago, because he puts it in words very much better than any which I could put into a speech. He said:
"It would be tedious to describe O.N.U.C.'s devious essays into Congolese politics, its partial, inconsistent but always mischievous interventions. The one recognisable thread that runs through the story is its bitter opposition to the only régimes that have had any success at all in restoring order out of chaos—those of Colonel Mobutu in Leopoldville and President Tshombe in Elisabethville."
He goes on to say:
"What is more, they both—and here is the rub—prefer their own freely chosen Belgian advisers to any of the 'experts' in the United Nations may wish to foist on them."

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I wonder what would have been said if, on the morrow of our granting independence to India as a whole, and Pakistan then seceding, we had then mobilised the whole of the United Nations to force Pakistan back into India, and, on top of that, if United Nations forces had gone in to destroy and damage towns in Pakistan in order to drive out British officials who had gone there at the wish of the Pakistanis themselves. That is exactly what has happened in Katanga. That is an absolute parallel to what has been going on in Katanga.
Mr. Sydney Silverman rose—
Sir R. Grimston: No, I will not give way. The hon. Member interrupts so much, and I have told him this before, that he has the longest record of interruptions in the columns of HANSARD and I shall not help him to add to it at this stage.
Nobody will contend that Tshombe has not made mistakes, but he has been under very grave provocation. There was the attack last September which took place just as he was about to meet Adoula, what I call the unprovoked aggression of the United Nations. The excesses committed by United Nations troops at that time, which were reported on the B.B.C. and independently, have been hushed up and glossed over. Imagine what would have happened if our troops had committed excesses.
Mr. Warbey: The hon. Member is making the most atrocious allegations.
Sir R. Grimston: Imagine what would have happened if British troops had committed the excesses which were reported by the B.B.C. and other eyewitnesses. How the world would have rung with denunciation. But in the case of the United Nations—that is all right it can do what it likes.
Mr. Warbey: The hon. Member is well aware that the B.B.C. on that occasion and on many occasions since was misled by the Katanga Radio and other reports put out by "Voice and Vision" and interested parties who have excellent access to B.B.C. and I.T.V. television. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] What the hon. Member has said has been
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contradicated and he has no right to repeat it in the House.
Sir R. Grimston: I did not get up to enable the hon. Member to make a speech. He must try to catch Mr. Speaker's eye later.
I should like to quote the last line from a letter in The Times from a man who was an eye-witness. He said:
"Ideologists in Britain may continue to hold their theories. But the bloodbath will never be forgotten by those who witnessed the naked aggression of the U.N. Forces."
That is what fouled the atmosphere, and that is why the United Nations can have no influence at all in bringing about reconciliation between Tshombe and the rest of the Congo.
It is a tragedy. The present operation is being carried out by a United Nations smarting under its previous setback. There is no doubt about that, otherwise how could there be the indiscriminate destruction which is being carried out at the present time? The United Nations is one side of the battle and Katanga is the other. To describe this as anything else but an attempt by the United Nations to subjugate Katanga and get rid of Tshombe really means that people do not understand the English language. Against that background, it is quite obvious that the United Nations wishes to destroy Katanga. That is why, evidently, according to Press reports, we shall see a rather heavy effort to do that in the next day or two.
There is another aspect of this situation. In their demand for a cease-fire it is said that Her Majesty's Government may be isolated, but if we are in isolation it is an honourable isolation, just as honourable as it was in 1940. [An HON. MEMBER: "And we could be right again."] It is said that it may offend the United States. I have been receiving in the last few days advice from the United States to the effect that Her Majesty's Government should not be influenced in their course of action by fear of offending the American Administration. After all, it is a free country and I have been told that there is mounting opinion among the people of the United States that things are going far too far with the United Nations in Katanga.
If we are right, as I believe we are, we should not fear American public opinion.

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I saw only today that the New York Herald Tribune, admittedly a Republican paper, says that
"…the United Nations' only alternative now is to launch a destructive all-out war against Katanga, or to arrange an immediate ceasefire."
The paper adds:
"We would prefer the latter."
As would this House and Her Majesty's Government. That seems to me to indicate that there is, I hope, a move starting in the United States to come behind the sensible policy that we are proposing.
Many speakers wish to take part in the debate and I have little more to say because much of what I had intended to say has been said already. People are saying that this is the beginning of the end of the United Nations. None of us wants to see that. The United Nations was created after the Second World War in the hope that it could do something for mankind where the League of Nations had failed, but the tragedy is that the United Nations, as it is being operated today, is being driven to its own destruction.
The only way at the moment to attempt to start to save it is to get the United Nations extricated from its present position in Katanga. The Government's Motion points the way, and so far I agree with it. But I must ask myself what is to happen next. The Motion merely makes a request to the Secretary-General and stops at that. Let us suppose that our request is ignored or refused. What shall we do? I suggest that the only thing we can do to maintain any dignity or any self-respect on the part of Great Britain is to use then the only sanction that is in our hands, and that is the financial sanction.
Whether we use it in the way we ask for in our Amendment, or in the way suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Mr. Smithers), in his most able speech, I should like to think about. If, at the conclusion of the debate—and I can only speak personally—I have some assurance from the Prime Minister that this Motion is not the last step, and if, in the event of our finding in a matter of days that nothing happens, Her Majesty's Government will use the financial sanction in one way or
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another, I will be satisfied. If my right hon. Friend cannot give me that assurance, I cannot in justice to my own conscience, and to what I believe to be the right thing, support the Motion.
7.20 p.m.
Mr. John Stonehouse: There was so much with which I fundamentally disagree in the speech of the hon. Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston), but at least the House will agree that it was a courageous speech. One knew at the end where he stood, and one cannot say that of the Government. The Government, in face of a crisis in the United Nations, disasters in Katanga, conflicts between Commonwealth Prime Ministers, a split in N.A.T.O. and all the results which will flow from that, have treated us not with a frank appraisal of the position but with a series of evasive excuses and cheap political manœuvres in order to cover the position.
The Lord Privy Seal's speech was typical of the evasion and double-talk we have come to expect from him. However, I do not fully accept that the Government have been vacillating over the Congo thoughout the last eighteen months. I believe that, despite vacillation on the surface, there has been a thread of consistency running through it all. I believe that from the beginning the Government have been trying to undermine the United Nations in what it has been trying to do in the Congo.
I was in Leopoldville just over a year ago. I met some of the principle characters involved at that time. I called on Mr. Lumumba and met our Ambassador there and also the United Nations representative, Mr. Dayal, and some of the remarkable men associated with him in the United Nations Mission in Leopoldville. The general impression I had was that our diplomatic representatives in Leopoldville were doing their best to undermine the legitimate Government and the authority and influence of Mr. Dayal. I think that one of the reasons that he was forced to resign was the pressures behind the scenes of the Ministers who were responsible at that time for our foreign affairs.
We have had reference today to the resolutions passed by the Security Council. If the Government really mean what

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they have said today, then they should have either abstained or voted against the resolution of 21st February, which they supported. As the Lord Privy Seal pointed out, that resolution allowed the United Nations to use force in the last resort. He did not make it clear that that provision followed this phrase
"…the United Nations take immediately all appropriate measures to prevent the occurrence of civil war in the Congo."
"All appropriate measures" could include the very important point of removal of the mercenaries who are now the main factor in the continuation of Mr. Tshombe's war against the United Nations. If the mercenaries were not there, the actions of Mr. Tshombe and his friends would collapse over night.
Mr. Gilbert Longden: That did not include mercenaries. They are referred to in the next paragraph, which does not include the use of force.
Mr. Stonehouse: If the United Nations considered that civil war was being encouraged in the Congo by mercenaries financed by interested companies or secessionists, then they would surely come within the category of "all appropriate measures".
Many of us feel—and there is evidence confirming this—that the mercenaries have a very great influence upon Mr. Tshombe's actions and that if they had not been in Katanga, the gendarmerie would have collapsed against the United Nations Force. Why did the Government support the resolution of 21st February making it a unanimous decision, if they did not intend force to be used in order to prevent civil war'? If they supported paragraph 3, concerning the withdrawal of mercenaries, why have they not taken steps to ensure that it is enforced? They have made no genuine attempt to ensure that the mercenaries employed in Katanga are withdrawn.
The hon. Member for Westbury referred to the so-called stability and law and order in Katanga. He seems to have fallen for the very skilful propaganda now emanating from a very astute public relations organisation—an organisation which hands out doctored photographs to newspapers and is responsible for some of the most misleading Press releases any of us have read. When the
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hon. Gentleman talks of law and order in Katanga, has he forgotten the United Nations report, very well documented, of February last, which referred to Tshombe's action and virtual war of extermination against the Balubas?
Sir R. Grimston: A number of my hon. Friends have been to Katanga. There have been letters in The Times from people who have stayed there in peace months before the United Nations came in, and who have always said that it was an oasis of security and peace compared with the chaos in the rest of the Congo.
Mr. Stonehouse: Then they could not have gone very many miles from Elisabethville, nor to North Katanga, which has been beyond Tshombe's control. I do not believe that the only pressures on the Government to change their policy over the weekend have come from the group below the Gangway. There have been pressures no less important. The Belgian Foreign Minister, M. Spaak, made a statement recently calling on the N.A.T.O. forces to mobilise against the United Nations. A report in the Evening Standard by Robert Carvel on Tuesday, said:
"We understand that the Foreign Secretary has acknowledged the telegram he received from M. Spaak appealing for pressure on the United Nations for a Katanga cease-fire."
This is another demonstration of the split in the alliance which will have very serious effects upon our position in the West vis-à-vis the Communist world. If this split continues, and we continue to pursue the policies the Government now have towards Katanga, the inevitable result will be to encourage infiltration by Communists, because they will be only too anxious to take advantage of this situation. It will give encouragement to Gizenga's regime in Stanleyville and will not be in the best interests of the United Nations or of peace and stability in the Congo in the long run.
There is a still more serious influence now involved and that emanates from Sir Roy Welensky, who, without any authority or constitutional right, has, been making statements on the position of the United Nations and on foreign affairs which are completely unconstitutional and which should have been repudiated by Her Majesty's Government. Or do they support his

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statements? In particular, he made a statement on Sunday which was issued by the High Commissioner of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland. Sir Roy said:
"The record of the United Nations in Katanga is one long succession of deliberate distortion and untruths issued to suit their own purpose."
I ask the Prime Minister whether he supports that statement. If he does not why has not he repudiated it, because Sir Roy Welensky has no right to make any such statement? It is completely unconstitutional.
Mr. P. Williams: Although the hon. Member is not a member of the Government, he is perfectly entitled to criticise. Even so, Sir Roy Welensky is a free man who is entitled to criticise. That does not place Her Majesty's Government in the position of having to accept or reject his criticism.
Mr. Stonehouse: Sir Roy Welensky is speaking in his official capacity as Prime Minister of the Federation, but he has no authority at all to speak on foreign affairs without the express approval of the Government here. If the hon. Member wants confirmation of that, I would refer him to the Monckton Commission's Report which, after describing the constitutional position of the Federation, said:
"In the field of external affairs, the authority of the Federation must in all cases be supported by an authorisation or entrustment by the United Kingdom Government."
Have the Government given that authorisation to Sir Roy Welensky? Have they allowed him to make not only that statement last Sunday but all the string of deliberate attacks on the United Nations in the last year. In particular, have they given approval to his refusal to allow United Nations bombs and supplies to be transported across Rhodesia and Nyasaland? Did they give approval to the transit of Mr. Tshombe from Ndola to Katanga when he was involved in an all-out campaign against the United Nations? Encouraging Tshombe to go to Katanga was a deliberate violation of the resolution of the Security Council of 24th November. The House and the country will expect a plain answer.
Mr. Biggs-Davison: The hon. Gentleman need not waste the time of the
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House. The answer was given by the then Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations in another place on 14th July, 1960.
Mr. Stonehouse: This is so urgent a matter that we should expect to have a reply from the Prime Minister tonight. Sir Roy Welensky has been involved in a campaign against the United Nations in the last year. He has given political support to Tshombe, and we understand from a newspaper report only a day or so ago that Tshombe is thinking of going to Rhodesia to consult Welensky about his political programme. Have the Government been informed about this? Do they approve of it? If they do not approve, then they should make a clear, unequivocal statement of disapproval of Sir Roy Welensky's actions.
Finally, I echo the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) in his remarkable and moving speech. The reason for the policies pursued by the Government lies in the financial interests involved in the Union Minière and the associated interests of Tanganyika Concessions and the British-South Africa Company. What is feared by hon. Members who are associated with these companies is that if Tshombe falls, and if the Congo is united—as it should have been over a year ago—and the Union Minière influence is removed, Northern Rhodesia will collapse and the British-South Africa Company's influence in that country will be destroyed.
When there is an amount of £11 million a year being paid in royalties to the British-South Africa Company, then a substantial financial interest is involved. From this year and before the concession runs out, no less than £200 million will have been paid by the Northern Rhodesian Copperbelt in royalties to the British-South Africa Company. Every fair minded Member will agree that there is a tremendous financial stake.
There is also the stake of the landowners in Southern Rhodesia and the fear of what will happen if the breaking of Tshombe results in the destruction of the concept of a federation which is supported by so many hon. Members opposite and which means the imposition of minority rule by a small number of whites against the overwhelming mass

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of the people of Rhodesia and Nyasaland who want no part of such a dictatorship.
There are tremendous financial interests involved and if the full facts were known to the British public, they would certainly vote the present Government out and bring into power a Government which sincerely believed in the United Nations and which had a foreign policy and a colonial policy based on justice. The British public do not want a Government which will support the United Nations only when the United Nations is following a policy which entirely agrees with our vested interests.
7.36 p.m.
Colonel Sir Tufton Beamish: I have listened with interest, and in almost total disagreement, to practically every word which the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Stonehouse) has addressed to the House. I propose to comment on many of the things he said, but at the outset of my speech I have no hesitation in saying that I support the Government Motion.
What, then, of the Opposition Amendment? What stands out a mile is that the Opposition are against a cease-fire. If they are in favour of a cease-fire, we have not been told on what terms they would like to see it. Perhaps when the Leader of the Opposition winds up the debate for his side he will tell the House. The Amendment refuses to face the facts and contains some wild exaggerations. Particularly wildly exaggerated is the attempt to show that the Conservative Party is against the United Nations. We are nothing of the sort and I propose later to produce some evidence towards that.
I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) is not in his place, and that he has been here so little since he spoke, for I would have liked to have told him that I thought his speech an extraordinary conglomeration of gossip and tittle-tattle, mixed up with some insinuations which were unworthy of a "Shadow" Foreign Secretary. I thought that his speech was just as bad as that of the Leader of the Opposition was good in our last foreign affairs debate.
There is an Addendum on the Order Paper, signed by about 30 of my right hon. and hon. Friends and with which I find myself largely in agreement. I
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am in complete agreement about the importance of a meeting between Mr. Tshombe and Mr. Adoula, and it is clear that the Government also agree. However, I take the view that my right hon. and hon. Friends who have put down this Addendum are trying to take two fences at once. It is not right or proper to go to the Secretary-General and say, "We, the United Kingdom, want a cease-fire and, if we do not get it, we will do A, B or C." It is perfectly obvious that if we do not get a ceasefire soon we will have to take other action, but it is not reasonable to expect the Government, at this stage, to say that if we do not get a cease-fire we will withdraw our voluntary contribution. I will remind the House of something Sir Patrick Dean said on that subejct on 22nd November in the Security Council debate which clearly pointed the direction in which the Government are moving.
My right hon. and hon. Friends who have put dawn this Addendum have made a clear and proper distinction between our mandatory contribution and our voluntary contributions. I have with me a few figures which, since they have not been quoted—most of the other things I wanted to say have already been said—may interest the House. In 1960, our mandatory contribution from 14th July to the end of the year was 3,768,000 dollars and in 1961, to the end of October, 7,706,000 dollars. Our largest voluntary contribution was of 3 million dollars to the United Nations Special Fund for the Congo.
But there are other important voluntary contributions which no single hon. Member would like to see ended. For example, there was a contribution of £15,000 for famine relief in the Leopoldville area and South Kasai, and 150 hospital tents. Those are things which must make us careful about asking for blanket withdrawal of contributions automatically if we do not get the ceasefire we all want. I am the first to agree that certain logical steps must follow if a cease-fire is not agreed quickly.
There is absolutely no denying that the United Kingdom is an extremely loyal member of the United Nations. I say that for the benefit of the hon. Member for Wednesbury. There is a mass of evidence to that effect. One small piece

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of evidence which is worth mentioning and which was quoted in reply to a Question a week or two ago is that only 12 countries out of more than 100 members of the United Nations are up to date with their mandatory contributions, and that the United Kingdom is one of them and has never defaulted. That is loyalty to the United Nations. I remind the House that at the same time 87 countries are behind with their mandatory contributions for the Congo operations alone. I think that that emphasises my point. Those and other facts make the exaggerations in the Opposition Amendment perfectly absurd.
Apart from what I thought was the incomprehensible bombs decision, it is ridiculous to accuse the Government of vacillating policies towards the United Nations. As long ago as 20th February, Sir Patrick Dean, in a debate on the "use of force" resolution, said:
"I must explain that the interpretation which my delegation puts upon the words at the end of that paragraph, namely, 'and the use of force, if necessary, in the last resort', is that force will only be used by the United Nations to prevent a clash between hostile Congolese troops. There can be no question of empowering the United Nations to use its forces to impose a political settlement."
That was said a long time ago and is without doubt still the view of the British Government. That is not vacillating. Incidentally, eight out of eleven members of the Security Council expressed similar reservations, so we were by no means isolated on that issue.
In the debate on 21st November, Sir Patrick Dean used these words in his closing sentence:
"I must make it clear that the continued full support by the United Kingdom of the Congo operation must depend on the skill and wisdom and the conciliatory manner with which the United Nations carries out its mandate."
There has been very little skill, very little wisdom and very little sign of conciliation. Her Majesty's Government view about the use of force in the Congo has, therefore, been consistent throughout 1961 and those two quotations should prove it to anyone with an open mind.
Then came the weekend, with irrefutable evidence that widespread force was being used against civilian targets.
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Without doubt, the anxieties of all of us who did not wish to see unnecessary force used were greatly increased, and that was obviously a powerful factor in the Government's thinking between Thursday night, when the decision was taken to send the bombs, and Monday. Never mind what Dr. Linner said or denied—incidentally, there are seven versions of his speech which I have in my file; never mind what General McKeown said and denied, because these things have been said and denied very often during the last twelve months.
Let us look, instead, at what the Lord Privy Seal reminded us of—the article in last Sunday's Observer, written by Dr. O'Brien. I have it with me if I am challenged. In clear terms Dr. O'Brien said that the objective of the United Nations operation in the Congo was "the imposition of a solution by force". That is Dr. O'Brien in his own words, in the left-hand column of his article, in last Sunday's Observer. Nothing could be clearer than that. Dr. O'Brien has some inexcusable inaccuracies in that article, to some of which my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal drew attention. No doubt there were others.
I turn from that to say a few words about the mercenaries. When I last spoke on this subject, I said how much I regretted the use of the word. It is a loaded word: it is a loose word; it is a blanket word; it means all things to all men. How many hon. Members know that there are more than 30,000 Europeans now living in the Katanga Province? If their homes are attacked by United Nations jet fighters, for instance, are they entitled to fire in retaliation, and do they automatically become mercenaries because they defend the homes in which many of them were born? Katanga is their home. We have seen a photograph in one of the newspapers today of black men and white men holding rifles side by side. They have been fighting together against the United Nations. I am not apportioning blame, but simply drawing attention to the fact that this is an incredibly difficult question.
My hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Mr. Smithers) drew attention to the incompatability between the use of force to remove mercenaries and the conciliation rôle that we all want the United Nations

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to perform. It is a great mistake to try to over-simplify the problem of the mercenaries, and it is true to say that excellent progress was being made last summer, in which the British Government played an important part. To what the hon. Member for Wednesbury said about the removal of foreign mercenaries from Mr. Tshombe's gendarmerie and police force—[Laughter.]—it is no good the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey) giggling; that is the fact.
Mr. Warbey: I will get up and say—
Sir T. Beamish: Get up and giggle.
Mr. Warbey: I appreciate the courteous manner in which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has given way and I will say what I was saying to myself, namely, that what the British Government did last August and September was to intervene and stop the rounding up of the mercenaries.
Sir T. Beamish: That just happens to be completely untrue and it is not worthy of comment. If the hon. Member has any evidence that it is true, I hope that he will give it to the House. I know it to be quite untrue.
The mercenary problem has become even more difficult because the November Security Council resolution introduced a new factor—the removal of "political advisers", without any attempt at definition. I saw a letter in The Times from Mr. Colin Legum saying a list of 500 or 600 politcial advisers had been made and that only those were to be removed. I did not have the faintest idea that such a list existed and it only emphasises how difficult a problem is the removal of mercenaries—that aded word—and political advisers.
Incidentally, it draws attention to the fact that above all else in Africa we are working towards creating conditions in which men who are black, white, brown or yellow can work happily together for their mutual benefit. That is exactly what we are trying to achieve in Northern Rhodesia and exactly what we are trying to achieve in Kenya and what we have achieved, thank God, in Tanganyika, where 25,000 Europeans are living happily, something which many people have not noticed.
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How can it be right to be associated with this policy of the automatic removal of anyone whose skin is white and who wants to help a black Government solve their problems? It cannot be right to go so far as that.
Mr. Stonehouse: In view of the hon. Gentleman's reference to Tanganyika, has he considered what Mr. Julius Nyerere said about the position in Katanga?
Sir T. Beamish: I happen to know Mr. Nyerere's views on Katanga very well. In fact, I have discussed them with him on more than one occasion, in Tanganyika and in England. The hon. Gentleman is right. Mr. Tshombe has made himself unpopular even with some of the most reliable and respected African leaders. Not with all of them by any means, hut Mr. Nyerere was one. Mr. Nyerere may not be right about this. It is just possible that he is wrong, and he may well change his mind.
There has been a lot of talk about a united Congo. I was interested in what the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) said. He regarded the whole of the Congo, as drawn on our maps, as an "artificial" country. The hon. Gentleman is right. It is an artificial country. I take the view that Katanga should form some kind of confederation with the rest of the Congo. I think that the Government are right to do all that they peacefully can towards that end so long as the provinces can be brought together voluntarily.
I do, however, take the view that it is highly improbable that the Congo as a whole will become a politically stable and economically viable country during the next few years. I also take the view that it would be wrong to bring undue pressure to bear either on Mr. Tshombe or Mr. Gizenga to join the rest of the Congo if they do not wish to do so.
I have discussed this with Mr. Tshombe. I was in Katanga fourteen months ago. I did not find him at all shut-minded about co-operation with the rest of the Congo. I know that he is sometimes apt to say one thing at one time and another thing at another time, and that he confuses many people in that way, but when he went to Tananarive he put forward constructive proposals for confederation. I have a copy of his

719
proposals, written in French. He made similar proposals at Coquihatville and got arrested for his troubles. He spent a month in prison and had a bad time. In my opinion, there is a great deal less than is sometimes thought to be the case between the views of Mr. Adoula and Mr. Tshombe about the way in which a confederation might be brought about.
I am sure that Mr. Tshombe is not an isolationist. I am sure that he is not a separatist. I am sure that he would like to reach some kind of sensible agreement whereby he did not become totally involved with the rest of the Congo, but entered into some form of confederation.
I turn from that to say something which I do not like saying about the United States. A year ago, in a well-known American weekly magazine, I was described as a "Yank at Westminster". I took that as a nice compliment. Perhaps, therefore, a Yank at Westminster might ask a very pertinent question of the United States Government.
Mr. George Ball, the United States Under-Secretary of State, was reported in today's newspapers as saying that
"the United Nations must achieve its minimum objective in Katanga."
A State Department official has said that
"Katanga must be brought under the control of Leopoldville."
I do know what is meant by either of those remarks. Do the American Government want unconditional surrender from Mr. Tshombe? If not, what do they want? This is not clear to me, and it has not been made clear to anybody else, and I regret that American policy in the Congo should be so unclear.
I should like to try very briefly to define the rôle which I think the United Nations should be playing in the Congo. It is not an easy thing to do, particularly with the situation changing so often as it does. The Lord Privy Seal dealt with this question, and I will reiterate one or two of his points. If possible, we surely want to see the Congo kept out of the cold war. That means that the United Nations must do all that it can to stop foreign intervention whether it comes from the United Arab Republic, Northern Rhodesia, Belgium, Britain, or Russia.
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Secondly, I think that its military rôle should be confined to a police rôle in co-operation with the de facto provincial Governments. Article 220 of the loi fondamentale gives each province control over law and order, and its own police force, and it is obvious that the United Nations cannot carry out a police rôle effectively unless it is able to co-operate with the provincial police forces. It cannot do that until confidence is re-established.
Thirdly, the United Nations must look after its own self-defence and protect its necessary communications.
Next, it has an important and difficult rôle in trying to prevent civil war. This perhaps is one of its most difficult duties. Unfortunately, it is a duty which it has shirked. I cannot refrain from saying that it appears to have shown unwarrantable bias in this matter. There have been at least three attacks on Katanga Province by forces under the control of the central Government, and in not one single instance, so far as I know, has the United Nations by diplomatic means, and certainly not by military means, done anything to intervene. This has led many people to think—wrongly I hope—that certain elements of the United Nations have been giving positive encouragement to the central Government to settle the score with Mr. Tshombe by military means.
I cannot believe that that is the case, but there has been no explanation of the failure of the United Nations to intervene, for example, a few weeks ago when there was a large scale attack on Albertville from the next province. The United Nations was standing by, and, so far as I know, no effort was made to intervene.
When the cease-fire agreement was signed, it included a clause that the United Nations would help Mr. Tshombe to protect his province against "outside attack". I am certain that Mr. Tshombe must have thought that that meant outside attack from wherever it came. He was not expecting to be attacked by Sir Roy Welensky or Ruanda Urundi, but he was certainly in fear of attack from central Government forces, most probably from the Gizengist forces. It was only 24 hours later that one of the leading United Nations

721
officials made it clear that this did not refer to attack from any other part of the Congo, and Mr. Tshombe felt, rightly or wrongly, that he had been misled. I, too, thought that he had been misled, no doubt by mistake.
Next, the United Nations must obviously play a very important humanitarian rôle in the Congo. It must provide a great deal of help to refugees, medical supplies, doctors, and so on, and it must also provide a great deal of technical assistance, and very welcome it will be.
Lastly, it has a very important reconciliation rôle in the political field, to try to help the different provinces of the Congo to solve their political differences.
For what it is worth, that is my attempt to define the rôle which I should like to see the United Nations playing in the Congo. What it must not do, first and foremost, is to interfere in any way in domestic politics, because it is not trying to set up a trust territory in the Congo, and in any case interference in the domestic politics of any State is specifically barred in the Charter.
There are bound to be two most regrettable effects of the firm and sensible British policy which has been described to us today, and which I am sure is supported by every hon. Member on this side of the House. It is bound, unhappily, to emphasise the existing sharp divisions in the British Commonwealth.
Before the debate is over we shall no doubt be told that we must "keep in step with the Commonwealth." I heard that said by a number of my hon. Friends yesterday and by several hon. Gentlemen opposite. It would be a very nice thing if we could get in step with the Commonwealth on this matter but all we can do, since we are out of step, is to do what we know to be the right thing and try to persuade them that we are right. It would today be beyond the capacity of man to get Sir Roy Welensky in step with Mr. Krishna Menon or Mr. Nehru, or to get Dr. Nkrumah in step precisely with Mr. Menzies. I could give other examples. They are out of step with each other and we are out of step with some of them. Be that as it may, it does not alter the fact that we must do all we can to do the right, the true and the proper thing today.
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It is also regrettable that the decision that has been made—the change in emphasis in British policy—has led to obvious divergence between Britain and the United States. But there is considerable well-informed and important criticism in America of American policy in the Congo. I have seen it in several leading American newspapers and earlier my hon. Friend the Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston) quoted from the New York Herald Tribune which, personally, I do not regard as a Republican newspaper. To me, it is just as much a Democratic newspaper, whatever ownership it may have. It is not a party newspaper. I will not call it a split, but the difference which has arisen between ourselves and America is very regrettable and seems to have arisen because of the American belief that, somehow, by crushing Tshombe's Government, the United Nations will hold up the spread of Communism in the Congo.
I believe that to be the opposite of the truth. To begin with, the Congo is a fairly bad bet for the Russians. There are much nicer playgrounds for them. They are very busy, and so are the Chinese, receiving students from all over the world—in Moscow, Pekin and elsewhere behind the Iron Curtain—and the Chinese are stepping up their broadcasting so that now China broadcasts more to Africa than does any other country. The Congo is not a very attractive part of the world for the Communists and, in any case, they are bound to get their hooks into certain places, in parts of Africa and Asia. We may not be able to stop them getting their hooks into Mr. Gizenga, but Mr. Tshombe's Government is anti-Communist to a man. To a man. Furthermore, that Government believes in non-racial policies and that is perhaps the most important answer to the Communist's efforts in Africa and Asia.
If one cannot develop non-racial policies one cannot have an answer to Communism in Africa. The Communists do not want to see non-racial policies working and that may be one reason why they would be glad to see the end of Tshombe's regime. The High Commissioner appointed by Adoula's Government, no doubt chosen by Gizenga, who spent two days at Kamina

723
Airport, was a Moscow trained Communist and would have taken over from Tshombe's administration if O'Brien's abortive coup d'etat in September had been successful. It is public knowledge that the central Government had announced plans to nationalise the Union Minière and replace Belgian technicians with Czech ones. That is something the Americans would not be likely to welcome and I very much hope that the Americans will think hard about their policies at the moment and exactly where they are leading them.
There is no shadow of doubt that every single British Government decision about our attitude towards United Nations policies in the Congo has been dictated absolutely honourably and by worthy consideration. Some of us feel—and to a certain extent I have certainly felt it myself—that some of those policies were misguided in the face of facts which appeared to be staring us in the face.
Most of us felt that the decision about the bombs—fortunately, it is now past history—was a genuine mistake. Some of us felt that it might have been better, even if something worse had come out of the General Assembly, to have used the veto in November and not to have laid ourselves open to the charge of vacillation—which the Opposition have made—or duplicity—which Dr. O'Brien has made. They are both unworthy charges. Through genuine loyalty to the United Nations the Government have, unfortunately, got the worst of both worlds and appeared to be totally isolated.
We heard only today I have not seen the report myself—that certain views were expressed in N.A.T.O. yesterday. If those views have been correctly described it would appear that most, if not all, of our N.A.T.O. allies—bar only the United States—hope to see a ceasefire in Katanga. I hope that that is the case.
The United Nations is a very powerful force in the world and must remain so, for the maintenance of peace and law and order, but it will not be such a force unless it conforms absolutely to the spirit and the letter of its own Charter. There has been a very serious departure from
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the spirit and letter of that Charter during the Katanga operations. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton tried to rag us about the sentence in the Gracious Speech concerning "sustaining the authority of the United Nations". There is no better way of doing that than by making quite certain that there is no departure from the spirit or the letter of the Charter. We will, I think, gain an immense amount of respect in many countries—and in many surprising quarters—now that our course is so clearly set. We will not find ourselves as isolated as we have, unhappily been recently.
A point which is greatly troubling a number of my hon. Friends—although it does not trouble me today—is the question of some reconsideration being given to the payment of voluntary contributions if we do not get a cease-fire. I hope, as do a number of my hon. Friends, that when the Prime Minister replies to the debate he will feel able to make a reference to this question. I have no doubt whatever that I should oppose, as hard as I can, the Opposition Amendment. Nor have I any doubt that I should vote for the Government Motion, because we are now following a positive course which I warmly welcome, a course which is clearly consistent with continued loyal support of the United Nations based on the principles of its Charter which, in turn, is clearly consistent with the British Commonwealth's best interests and, again, is consistent with Britain's best interests as well.
8.8 p.m.
Mr. William Warbey: In contrast to some hon. Gentlemen opposite, the hon. and gallant Member for Lewes (Sir T. Beamish) put forward a case, with which I largely disagreed, in a moderate and rational way. On one point, however, I found myself wholly in agreement—that the Government have displayed a considerable degree of loyalty towards the United Nations in so far as they have contributed very substantially towards the funds of the Congo operations—not only the mandatory contributions, but the voluntary ones as well.
In so doing the Government have done rather more than observe the conditions laid on them by the Charter. They have

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certainly done far better than the Russians and their friends who have made no contribution whatever. By failing to make a contribution—even their mandatory contribution—they are in breach of Article 49 of the Charter which calls on them to give full assistance to the Security Council in the carrying out of its decisions. That is the only extent to which I can go along with the hon. and gallant Member for Lewes.
It has become clear from what has been said by other hon. Members, by the Lord Privy Seal, and also by British representatives in the United Nations, that this very financial assistance—most of which they are obliged to give under the Charter, anyhow—is now to be used as a means of putting pressure upon the United Nations in order to get it to do what the British Government want and not what the Security Council decides. That in itself is a beginning of the process of undermining the authority of the United Nations, which is the subject of the charge which the Opposition are making against the Government today.
We have heard from some hon. Members opposite some disgraceful attacks upon the United Nations. From the hon. Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston) we had a speech which, from beginning to end, except for the odd sentences in which he said that he was a supporter of the United Nations, was a consistent attack upon all that the United Nations stands for, upon all that it has done in regard to the Congo and upon the members of its staff in carrying out all the duties imposed upon them by the Security Council.
He repeated some of the most disgraceful attacks that have been made in the form of reports which have come from Katanga and elsewhere, attacks which have been repudiated. For example, attacks on the behaviour of Indian troops were repudiated, not only by the United Nations staff itself, but also by the Prime Minister. He sent a message to Mr. Nehru in order to dissociate the British Government from these disgraceful attacks on the behaviour of the Indian troops and to compliment them on the way in which they had behaved.
From the Lord Privy Seal we had probably the most pathetic, the most
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evasive and fumbling speech we have had since the days when Sir John Simon and the present Home Secretary were defending the policy of appeasement in the pre-war Tory Government. His speech was throughout one series of misrepresentations and evasions on almost every point in order to justify a policy of appeasing—not a powerful man like Hitler, whom there might have been some justification in appeasing in order to gain time to fight him better later, as the Leader of the House has recently suggested—but appeasement of a petty, tin-pot provincial administrator.
This is what the present policy of the British Government amounts to. What they are proposing is that there should be an immediate cease-fire without any attempt to carry out and to achieve the objectives of the United Nations which have been laid upon it by the Security Council's decision. We are at a moment when the United Nations forces, according to the Secretary-General, according to the members of his staff, according to the Government of the United States and according to the majority of members of the United Nations, are engaged in carrying out military operations in the furtherance of the objectives for which they were called into the Congo. That is the actual position.
In order to carry out those objectives they have found it necessary to overcome military rebellion against those objectives. What the British Government are doing in asking for an immediate cease-fire is suggesting that the United Nations should surrender to this military rebellion. In that they are supported by the bulk of hon. Members behind them who have been wanting this policy for a very long time—hon. Members who, if this kind of policy had been advocated at a time when British troops were involved in the fighting, would have denounced it as a stab in the back.
What would hon. Members opposite have said if there had been a demand for an immediate cease-fire at the time when British troops were engaged in carrying out the United Nations mission in Korea? What did they say when there was a demand for a cease-fire when they were carrying out an act of aggression against Egpyt in Suez a few years ago? What did they say during the war when, as on hon. Member said, we stood

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in isolation and the Communists and others demanded an immediate ceasefire? Those acts were then denounced by hon. Members on both sides of the House as a stab in the back for those engaged in carrying out necessary operations in defence of democracy and world law and order.
Mr. G. M. Thomson: Although there are not actually British troops in the United Nations operation, there are Commonwealth troops there from India and Nigeria. The Nigerian troops, whom I saw in Nigeria only a few weeks ago, were going off to the Congo led by British officers.
Mr. Warbey: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, of which I feel sure the Lord Privy Seal has taken due note. He will no doubt have noted the inference that what the Government are proposing to do, if not stabbing British soldiers in the back, is stabbing Commonwealth soldiers in the back.
In the course of this defence of this disgraceful proposal that the United Nations should surrender to Tshombe and his mercenaries, we had from the right hon. Gentleman an accusation that the Labour Party was not in favour of a cease-fire and a peaceful political settlement. He knows, of course, that that is a complete misrepresentation of the actual situation. What we are in favour of is a negotiated political settlement as soon as the conditions have been created for such a settlement. One of the first necessities for the creation of such a settlement is that those who are in military rebellion against their own central Government and against the United Nations and who are using foreign mercenaries in order to conduct that military rebellion should first be compelled to accept a peaceful settlement which they have resisted and are resisting by force. That is the first essential. When we have got that, we can go on to get a negotiated settlement.
Then the right hon. Gentleman deliberately created confusion about the objectives for which the United Nations Mission has gone to the Congo. He forgot to mention that it went there not only as a result of a decision by the Security Council, but also because it was called in by the central Government
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of the Congo, and that the purpose for which the central Government called it in was that it should assist, not only with technical and civilian advisers, but also with military help in the restoration and maintenance of law and order throughout the Congo.
The legal validity of the decision of the United Nations rests upon that. When the hon. and gallant Member for Lewes claims that he wants to respect the Article of the Charter which provides that the United Nations must not interfere in internal domestic affairs of a member nation, but at the same time says that the United Nations force ought to co-operate with the provincial police forces in carrying out its mission, he is engaged in a complete contradiction. Its duty, and its only possible duty under the Charter, is to co-operate with the forces of the central Government maintaining and restoring internal order.
The right hon. Gentleman said that one of the purposes for which the United Nations went there was to play its part in the cold war. [Interruption.] That is what I understood. It certainly has been said by other hon. Members and I thought the right hon. Gentleman used that phrase.
Mr. Heath: This is like the rest of the inaccuracies in the speech of the hon. Member. What I said was that it was to prevent the Congo becoming a part of the cold war.
Mr. Warbey: In that connection the right hon. Gentleman referred to such matters as seizure by the United Nations and occupation by the United Nations of airfields and the broadcasting station at a critical moment when Mr. Lumumba's Government, the central Government, were in danger of being overthrown. In fact, that is the only action taken by the United Nations in the Congo which has been approved by Her Majesty's Government. Although this was not part of the purpose for which it was sent there, the noble Lord, Lord Hailsham, said in the debate in another place last July that the United Nations force was sent there in order to stop other countries flying in assistance to the Lumumba Government and it was for that purpose that it took control of the airfields and broadcasting stations. This part of it alone—the part that led

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to the downfall of the Lumumba Government—was approved by Her Majesty's Government. Nothing has been approved since then.
I thought that the right hon. Gentleman also said that the United Nations had a mission to restore and maintain internal order throughout the territory of the Congo by peaceful means only. It puzzles me a little to know how armed forces, in a country where other people are using armed forces to create disorder, can maintain internal order solely by peaceful means. It is on a par with the right hon. Member's later statement that the United Nations forces were to bring about the arrest and removal of the mercenaries and political advisers from the Katanga without using armed force.
In other words, the right hon. Gentleman wants to send an armed policeman to arrest an armed bandit, but when the armed bandit uses his revolver to resist arrest the right hon. Gentleman says that the armed policeman must not use his revolver. Is that what the right hon. Gentleman wants? Of course it follows that if we authorise the United Nations to bring about the removal of mercenaries and the removal of those mercenaries is resisted by force we must use what force is necessary to overcome that resistance. The right hon. Gentleman knows this to be true, and he knows, moreover, that it proved impossible to bring about the removal of the mercenaries without the use of force.
He has admitted that on 28th October the British Government intervened in order to stop the United Nations from using any force in arresting mercenaries, and to get an arrangement by which the mercenaries would be handed over or removed peacefully by the Tshombe regime. That was the first intervention by the British Government against an action of the United Nations, but it did not succeed. It failed completely. It is now clear not only that at least 100 mercenaries and political advisers were not handed over or removed but that since then their numbers have increased, so that they are now back to the 200, 300 or possibly 400 that were there before any removal started. There was a complete failure to carry out the decision of the Security Council solely by using peaceful means.
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It then became apparent that as a result of the intervention by the British Government, acting together with the Belgian and French Governments, the removal of these mercenaries could be achieved only by the use of force. There then began the second operation of 13th September, in more difficult conditions than that of 28th October—because by this time the mercenaries had been warned and were able to make their preparations. It became difficult because of the policy of the British Government. But they then intervened again, in order to stop this action by the United Nations. They demanded a cease-fire. In other words, they demanded that the United Nations should call off its attempt to carry out its mandate from the Security Council.
On this occasion they intervened not publicly—as they would have had every right to do—but in violation of Article 100 of the Charter. They intervened privately, and put private pressure upon members of the Secretariat. This has been admitted by Lord Lansdowne in another place. If hon. Members will read the account of what took place in the debate of 18th October they will see that the noble Lord admitted that he was sent out with instructions from 'the British Government to have a private interview with the Secretary-General, to express strong criticism of Katanga and to ask for them to be brought to a halt.
I doubt whether the Lord Privy Seal would be prepared to deny that, because it is on the record, in the OFFICIAL REPORT of the House of Lords. I think that I am in order in quoting what was said by the noble Lord, since it was a statement made by a member of the Government. Lord Lansdowne said:
"much that I had to say to Mr. Hammarskjoeld was highly critical of the United Nations' action as I understood it…"—[OFFICIALREPORT, House of Lords; Vol. 234, c. 452.]
What right had the British Government to send one of their Ministers on a secret mission to have a private interview with the Secretary-General and to make strong criticisms of the way in which the Secretary-General and his staff were carrying out the decisions of the United Nations? They had none whatsoever. This was a clear and direct violation of Article 100 of the Charter, under which

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they are pledged not to influence members of the Secretariat in the discharge of their responsibilities.
This is an admitted example, on the record. But the Government went further than that. They sought—and they were successful—to have Mr. Dayal sacked from his post in the Congo. Does the Lord Privy Seal deny that the British Government sought the removal of Mr. Dayal? The right hon. Gentleman seems to be otherwise occupied. No doubt he finds this question rather awkward. I will put it to him again. Does he deny that the British Government sought the removal of Mr. Dayal from the Congo? He does not deny it.
Mr. Heath: The hon. Member cannot use that technique. He has made so many extraordinary statements in his speech, which have borne absolutely no relationship to reality, that I have given up any idea of trying to correct him. He must draw the conclusion that I propose to make no comments of any kind on his speech.
Mr. Warbey: Since the right hon. Gentleman chose to intervene at that moment and failed to take the opportunity of his intervention to deny the charge I have made. I can only accept it as proved.
Sir T. Beamish: Certainly not.
Mr. Warbey: Moreover, Mr. Nehru has said publicly that the removal of Mr. Dayal from the Congo was brought about by pressure from Western countries, including this country. The Lord Privy Seal cannot deny this. I say that the process of removal of Mr. Dayal was a direct contravention of Article 100 of the United Nations Charter.
Now Dr. O'Brien has said that he, too, was sacked as a result of pressure exercised by the British Government. He says explicitly that Lord Lansdowne went to the Congo and told Mr. Hammarskjold that he—Dr. O'Brien—should be sacked. He made this specific charge, and I should like to know whether the Lord Privy Seal denies it, I do not think that he can. It is certainly a charge which should be denied and repudiated. If it is not, it means that, for the third time at least, the Government are convicted of having violated the Charter of the United Nations and
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of doing what they have so often accused the Soviet Government of doing, namely, attacking the Secretariat and trying to put pressure on it to do what it wants it to do in contravention of the Charter.
Why have they done all this? What is the reason? I should have thought that it has been made amply clear. The only justification given for it is in order to protect the regime of Mr. Tshombe. I have not seen any other justification for it. I do not think that hon. Members opposite would deny that this was the main purpose for which the Government intervened—in order to protect Mr. Tshombe and his regime, to protect a man who is in open rebellion against his own central Government, who has refused to accept the commissars of the central Government—
Sir Cyril Osborne: Commissars?
Mr. Warbey: That was a slip. I meant to refer to commissioners. In fact, commissioners and commissars are the same thing in terminology. Mr. Tshombe has refused to accept in the Katanga the commissioners of the central Government and has threatened to use force against them if they are introduced there, a man who has employed foreign mercenaries to fight against United Nations troops and who, together with Mr. Munongo, is strongly suspected and is wanted for questioning in connection with the murder of Mr. Lumumba, the former head of the Congolese State.
This is the man whom the British Government are seeking to protect. Why? Because Mr. Tshombe, in his turn, is prepared to protect the financial interests of British, Belgian and French financiers in the copper mines of the Katanga.
Sir G. Nicholson: Does not the hon. Gentleman think it possible that we dislike murder, that we dislike Africans being bombed by British bombs, and that we dislike bloodshed, misery and people dying of starvation?
Mr. Warbey: I know that some hon. Members opposite do. The hon. Member for Farnham (Sir G. Nicholson), who has a very good record in the House, is very humane and generally is fairly objective. I therefore feel sure that he must have protested vehemently when British bombs were being dropped on Egyptian civilians. If he did not,

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the words that I should have to use about him are ones that I should not like to use, although I should certainly use them about some hon. Members who have not disguised their hypocritical attitude to this question and who have wept crocodile tears for selected Africans—Mr. Tshombe, but not Mr. Lumumba; Katangans, but not Egyptians or Kenyans.
There has clearly been this motive behind this all the time. It has been admitted by hon. Members that other financial interests are involved—American, as well as Belgian, French and Russian. They have all contributed to the latter day Das Kapital "which has been so amply illustrated by these events. The real struggle here is between the international class loyalty of hon. Members opposite and the United Nations, which is struggling to become what all of us in this House have declared we wish to see it become—a world authority capable of making and enforcing the peace. We are witnessing that struggle taking place in the Congo, and it is hon. Members opposite who want to weaken the United Nations at this vital time.
8.41 p.m.
Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: I must sit down by ten minutes to nine. I therefore hope that hon. Members will help me in my wish not to prolong my speech.
The hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey) reminded me so dreadfully of the Irishman who, long after the English had left, said, "The cursed English! I always said that if they ever left this country we should go to rack and ruin. Now the devils have gone and left us on our own on purpose to bring the country down." The hon. Gentleman seems so determined to blame us for everything. He gave us no credit for anything and encouraged our enemies. I can only suppose that the readers of Pravda will be rejoicing in his speech tomorrow morning.
I think that those of us who have listened to the debate from the beginning will agree that there has never been a time when a clear judgment was required more than now, particularly from Her Majesty's Government. As I see it, the principal dangers are these.
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The United Nations—and I ask particularly those who have supported the United Nations tonight to listen to this—risks its forces becoming involved in an operation far in excess of the mandate given to it by the resolutions authorising both the restoration and the maintenance of law and order in the Congo and the removal of foreign mercenaries.
The prospect now, I believe, is a fight to the death in an internal dispute which the United Nations has neither the right nor the ability to decide. If, as is, I fear, by no means certain, the United Nations wins this operation, it will then be obliged to become what will amount to a colonial administrative power, a rôle which again it has neither the right nor ability to fulfil.
I must admit that I agree more than I ever expected to agree with the speech of the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway). For the Congo, there is the prospect of Balkanisation into separate States at least one of which would sooner or later become a Communist puppet, and that surely is the very microbe which the United Nations' doctor was commissioned to prevent taking hold upon the patient.
Grave as all these dangers are, those confronting the United Kingdom herself are appalling. Of all these, I believe that none is worse than the risk of giving the impression to the world of inconsistency. If we come to the conclusion that doubts about the way in which the campaign is being conducted are so serious as to dictate the withholding of arms, then not only is it inconsistent to continue to support the operation in any way, but—and here I disagree with many of my hon. Friends—I believe that it is logically inconsistent with remaining a member of the United Nations.
Conversely, if we regard our membership of the United Nations as essential—whatever I may have thought about the United Nations ever being created and the fallacies upon which it was founded, nevertheless I think that as long as it exists we must be a member of it—I fear that we must face the consequences of having to support the organisation and share in the responsibility for all that is done in its name, however much we may rightly do our

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best to guide its action and however well or however badly we succeed in that enterprise.
I believe that we shall certainly win no respect at all, nor shall we appear to be consistent, if we only support collective action of which we approve and play the rôle of Pontius Pilate over the actions we dislike. To opt out of the Congo action now, assuming that the United Nations does not order a cease fire, would at once undermine not only the multi-racial relationships we hope for in other African territories which regard Tshombe, I fear, as the blackest blackleg of all blacks, but we also risk dividing the Commonwealth, dividing the Anglo-American Alliance, and dividing the entire free World in its fight against communism.
In attempting to avoid the charge of inconsistency being levelled against us, and of causing disunity in the free world, we would do well to remember that the rôle of the prophet in the context of our affairs is reserved for the statesman, which I am not, rather than for the politician, which I am. Grave, indeed, are the dangers that beset any man who sees in his own status the opportunity for prognostication. I suspect that no peril greater than this threatens the men who have to guide our country's destiny, and no Minister is more tempted to pit his courage against such risks than a Prime Minister.
It is both the duty and the right of the present Prime Minister, as of his predecessors, and as it will be of his successors, to cast his mind forward as often as possible and seek to mould the minds of his Cabinet colleagues into a form of thinking consistent with his own appreciation of the likelihood of events. I can conceive of no more agonising mental torture than that which comes to an imaginative mind whose interpretation of human destiny is one of impending doom.
There is much in the world today, and not least in the issues before us in this debate, that would compel any student of world affairs or any stateman to survey the potentialities of Armageddon more realistically than those of Utopia. Yet, however attuned to such exercises a man's intellect may be, he has always to remember that he, no less than his contem-
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poraries, is of mortal clay and, therefore, fallible in his judgment, whether of things past, things present or things to come. Especially is an awareness of this truth important when the man himself is gifted with a superlative capacity for surveying the world horizons.
Yet I would maintain that, however courageous, however reluctant to accept the doubts about ever having the opportunity of realising his highest hopes, no man whose ability to reason has brought him to the conclusion that mankind is condemned to eventual self-destruction should remain in charge of his country's affairs. For it is my firm belief that such a conclusion must inevitably colour a man's thinking to such a degree as to distort his judgment on matters of moment and so deprive him of consistency of thought and action.
Today, our greatest needs are sound faith, sound judgment, and consistent action. If I were convinced that in their recent handling of events Her Majesty's Government had demonstrated these qualities, no one would support them more readily than I. But it is precisely this that they have failed to do. Because I sense in this failure a weakening of their faith in the eventual fulfilment of man's divine purpose on earth, I find it impossible to support them in the Lobby tonight. But I pray that my abstention may at least help them to examine their own hearts as deeply as their actions in recent days have caused me to examinmine.
8.50 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Gaitskell:The Lord Privy Seal, at the beginning of his speech, challenged us on our attitude to the proposed cease-fire and I should like at once to take up that challenge. We favour a cease-fire in the Congo provided that it is permanent and calculated to achieve the objects of the United Nations intervention. Let there be no misunderstanding about that. I must, however, add that we were not prepared simply to acquiesce in the Government Motion without a word of our own, for a large number of reasons.
First, the Government Motion implies, in a rather extraordinary way, that the United Nations has to achieve the ceasefire on its own. The only conclusion which can be drawn from that is that the United Nations has been responsible

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for starting the fighting. We are not prepared to accept that. If the Government disagree with what I am saying, will they explain why there is not one word about Mr. Tshombe in the Motion?
The second reason why we are not prepared to acquiesce in the Motion is that it does not take into account, or make plain, that there was a cease-fire quite recently and that, clearly, it did not work. Therefore, merely to accept a Motion of this kind would suggest that we had learned no lessons from what has happened in the last two months.
The third reason why we were not prepared to accept the Motion in that form without putting down our own views is that we could not favour any suggestion which might have led to the cutting off of the United Nations forces and their subsequent annihilation. It is foolish to pretend that a cease-fire in the sense of a stopping of hostilities by the United Nations at this moment might not end—indeed, might not lead—to precisely that result.
It is, no doubt, for these reasons that the proposal of the Government, put forward in this sudden and surprising manner, has not been supported by other Governments. The right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) drew attention to the attitude of N.A.T.O. He seemed to suggest that N.A.T.O. had reached agreement in some form to support the Government's policy. That is not so. All that has been reported is, no official statement, but indications of support from some members of N.A.T.O. I am not surprised. I would think it perfectly natural that Portugal would support the British Government. I would not be surprised if Belgium did. I would not be surprised if France did. What has happened is that a group of ex-colonial Powers have supported the British Government [Interruption.] There is no evidence whatever that Norway or Denmark have supported the British Government, or Canada, and I should be surprised if this were to be the case. If any hon. Member knows to the contrary, I hope that he will tell me so, but, certainly, I have not read anything which suggests anything of the kind.
It is not surprising that other countries have been hesitant to support the British
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Government in this matter. I particularly draw attention to the statement made by Mr. George Ball, in Washington, as to the United States attitude. This seems to me a perfectly reasonable attitude to adopt. The United States said she was in favour of a cease-fire provided that the limited objectives of the United Nations had been achieved. Mr. Ball went on to make plain that those limited objectives were the security of the United Nations forces. [Interruption.] I do not know why hon. Members opposite are making noises about that.
One of the most interesting questions in this debate is what exactly are the differences between ourselves and the American Government on this matter. Little has been said about it so far. I hope that the Prime Minister will deal with it, for he will agree that any divergence on a matter of this degree of importance between America and ourselves is serious. I have no desire to broaden that difference. Nevertheless, it is important that the country and the world should know exactly where we stand. So I put this question to the Prime Minister: will he say what he disagrees with in Mr. Ball's statement that was printed in The Times and in other newspapers this morning?
Finally, we all know that this Motion was just a last-minute device to demonstrate the magnificent, monolithic, indestructible unity of the Tory Party; otherwise, it is very difficult to understand why the Government waited until Tuesday evening to come forward with this proposal. It is extraordinarily hard to understand how they managed to switch from the proposal to hand over the bombs last Thursday night, to the decision not to authorise the bombs on Monday and to the decision to propose a cease-fire on Tuesday. I hope that we are not to have any more nonsense about this. Everbody knows that this is the case, and it is far simpler to admit it, as, indeed, the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) did in the speech quoted by my right hon. Friend.
There is another objection which I have to this Motion, and, frankly, it is that I do not think that it deals with the real issues which we should be discussing and which, to a large extent, we have been discussing this afternoon.

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These seem to me to be, first, should the United Nations be in the Congo at all? When I say the United Nations I mean the United Nations force. Secondly, if so, for what purpose and with what powers and authority? Thirdly, has the policy of the Government been such as to justify the support of this House and the country? These are the real issues that arise today, and to these I will now turn my attention.
First, should the United Nations be in the Congo at all? I think that some hon. Members will probably say that they should not be there, and I can understand their reasoning. It could be argued that what is happening in the Congo is an internal affair, that it is little more than a tribal struggle, that it is something which is not the concern of the United Nations because it is internal, and that it is a dispute about the constitution and the form of Government and that it is certainly not the business of the United Nations to intervene in any dispute between a province wishing to gain its independence and the Government of the territory, such as it is.
The logic of that argument is that Katanga should be allowed to secede, and that Mr. Tshombe is perfectly entitled to acquiescence, if not support, in his declaration that Katanga is an independent nation. Though I understand it, I regard his point of view as both wrong and dangerous. I believe myself that if the United Nations forces had not gone into the Congo, in all probability, there would have been grave starvation—heaven knows, it was bad enough, in any event—a great many massacres—and there were some, in any case—civil war continuing for perhaps a long time, and what, in a sense, concerns us all even more—international complications.
Indeed, hon. Members will recall—and I put this particularly to those who are opposed to the United Nations being there—that when independence came to the Congo, when the mutiny took place, the Congolese Government asked for assistance from the United Nations and Katanga declared its independence, there was a very real possibility of the Congo becoming a focus of international conflict.
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There were very real possibilities on one side, that the Russians would send in supplies by air. There were, I believe, plans to that effect. On the other side, if that had happened, I do not doubt that the West would have had to take such steps as seemed appropriate. Let us at least remember that the presence of the assembled United Nations forces at that time—assembled very quickly—probably prevented this from happening. By the same token, I hold that if the United Nations forces were now to be withdrawn, precisely the same dangers would arise. Only they would be worse as far as the world as a whole is concerned, because such a withdrawal would indicate a really appalling failure on the part of the United Nations as well, and the effect on its reputation in the world as a whole, and particularly among the African and Asian peoples, would be catastrophic.
This is our view as to what would happen if the United Nations forces withdrew. We believe that just the same danger of intervention would occur. No doubt Katanga would declare and maintain its independence. But what would there be to prevent Mr. Gizenga in Orientale Province making the same declaration of independence and, having done so, as an independent State, what would prevent his inviting the assistance of the Soviet Union? I believe that all this would happen if the United Nations withdrew and I want to know categorically whether that is the Government's view as well.
If that is their view, will the Prime Minister say what his attitude is to the Amendment which some of his hon. Friends have put on the Order Paper, demanding that if the cease-fire proposals of Her Majesty's Government are not accepted we should cut off our financial contribution to the Congo operation? It is essential that their attitude should be made absolutely plain tonight. If, as I trust, the Government agree that the United Nations must stay, several questions follow.
The first of these relates to the unity of the Congo. This continual reiteration on the part of the Government that they are opposed to the imposition of a political settlement in the Congo by the United Nations really is a red herring. Nobody has suggested that. To have

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referred to the question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) in terms that suggested that he favoured this solution was quite absurd of the Lord Privy Seal. All my right hon. Friend was doing was asking a perfectly reasonable question: if it is the view of the Government that a settlement should not be imposed, then why is the United Nations force there? I know that it has been suggested that United Nations officials have talked in these terms. As far as I am aware, every single one of these suggestions has been repudiated.
The Government say that they support the unity of the Congo and oppose the secession of Katanga under Mr. Tshombe. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] I am sure that the hon. and gallant Member for Knutsford (Sir W. Bromley-Davenport) meant no discourtesy. Perhaps he does not always realise the power of his voice.
The Government opposed the secession of Katanga, but they are aware that Mr. Tshombe has declared the independence of Katanga already. How seriously do the Government oppose secession? Do they agree that it is essential if the Congo is to survive, that Katanga must be part of it? Do they also agree that the Union Minière revenues should be paid to the central Government of the Congo? It is not enough for the Prime Minister to reply, as he did in answer to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Party on this very point, simply by saying:
"…I have no doubt that the companies operating in Katanga pay revenue, according to the law, to the country.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th December, 1961; Vol. 650, c. 1532.]
What on earth does that mean? According to what law? Can we have a clear answer from the Government as to whether they think what is being done with these revenues is or is not legal? Further if Katanga remains separate as it is at the moment—I am not thinking of de jure recognition, or anthing of that kind—are they not worried about the danger of Orientale also becoming a separate State? If they do, does it not occur to them that these very dangers I have referred to—intervention from outside—might then occur?
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We cannot judge the situation without taking into account all these possibilities. Certainly, the efforts which have so far been made to try to achieve the integration of Katanga in the Congo in some form or other have been markedly unsuccessful. One comes, therefore, to the question: what is the obstacle? There is not much doubt about that. We believe that the main obstacle is the continued presence of European troops—mercenaries as they are called—who are bitterly opposed to the idea of Katanga being part of the Congo and are effectively in charge of the military operations on the Katanga side.
This is fundamental. It is certainly fundamental for the United Nations. I must ask the Government whether they agree that this is a major obstacle to the unity of the Congo. Do they agree, for instance, that, if the mercenaries could be got rid of and turned out altogether, it would be a great deal easier to achieve the kind of settlement we want? That I believe to be the view of the overwhelming majority of the members of the United Nations.
If that is the case, is it not obvious, also, that their continued presence in the Congo, precisely because they are foreign, involves the risk of international complications? So far, I am glad to say, in other provinces we have not had similar mercenaries from other countries, but we could have them. That could easily happen. In these circumstances, it becomes imperative that they should be got rid of from the Congo altogether.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) referred to the sort of people they are. I do not want to be in the least unfair. I do not doubt that, as the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) said, some of these men are Belgians who have been living in Katanga for many years, but there is no denying that a number of them are French soldiers of fortune—perhaps the sort of people who are on the run from President de Gaulle at the present time.
Sir C. Osborne: How many?
Mr. Gaitskell: A matter of hundreds, which is quite sufficient in this case.
What then should be done? The Government say, "Oh, they must go,

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but we must not use force to get them out". But suppose they do not go when we do not use force?
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Bomb them?
Mr. Gaitskell: I hope that the "right hon. Gentleman"—as I suppose I should now call the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke)—will listen to the argument. It is an important one. If it is desirable to get rid of the mercenaries, and the Government say that force is not to be used, how is it to be done?
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Bomb them?
Mr. Gaitskell: What if they will not go without the use of force? I ask the "right hon. Gentleman" because I assume that he has moved to the Front Bench opposite and has taken over the government of the country.
The Government say that everything was going all right in August and that an effort was made to get rid of the mercenaries. Up to a point, an effort was made, but the United Nations report on this matter said:
"In the morning and again in the afternoon of 28 August, U.N. representatives met with the Elisabethville Consular Corps at their request to discuss repatriation procedures. The Belgian Consul, who presided…stated that by arrangement with his colleagues he would undertake the responsibility for ensuring the surrender and repatriation and travel of all personnel required to be evacuated, irrespective of their nationality…The United Nations agreed to this evacuation procedure on condition that the evacuation would not thereby be delayed and that the United Nations retained the exclusive authority to decide who should be evacuated and when. On this understanding"—
this was the crucial decision—
"the United Nations refrained from continuing to search for and apprehend foreign military personnel.
Unfortunately, these arrangements were not scrupulously observed. Only the officers already stationed in the Belgian Consulate building and officers of the Belgian Army…were dealt with under this procedure, and even in the case of these officers delays or administrative exemptions were proposed. The foreign officers and mercenaries, profiting from this relaxation of evacuation measures, re-infiltrated into the Gendarmerie, and there were indications that they began distributing arms to certain political or ethnic groups."
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The promise of evacuation was never carried out. The result is that there are today a substantial number of these foreign mercenaries still in Katanga, still in control of the operations, and still providing the major obstacle to the political unity of the Congo.
I turn to the latest position. The Government were critical of the United Nations action in September. The facts are in dispute, but I will not weary the House with that, because we have discussed it before. What are the latest facts which are available? The ceasefire, negotiated after the regrettable, the deplorable death of Mr. Hammarskjold was broken. Why was it broken? Who broke it?
The Lord Privy Seal mentioned four events: First, Mr. Tshombe's provocative speeches—[Interruption.]—I am speaking of what the Lord Privy Seal said this afternoon; secondly, the attacks on Mr. Ivan Smith and Mr. Urquhart; thirdly, the establishment of a road block between the airport and the United Nations headquarters in Elisabethville and the refusal of the Katangan authorities, or their inability, to remove this block; finally, the seizure of 11 United Nations personnel who were then held as hostages. Who was responsible for this? Was it the United Nations who broke the cease-fire? Is it not perfectly evident that it was Mr. Tshombe himself, or the mercenaries whom he could not control?
There is other evidence. I quote from the Economist of 9th December about the attitude in the United Nations on this matter:
"The battle that erupted on Tuesday was not planned by the United Nations. It was not an action to clear out Katanga's mercenaries and militant Europeans that the Security Council authorised on 24th November…Nor was it a simple United Nations reaction to the brutal provocations of recent days. It seems completely clear in New York that the United Nations force was ordered into action only in the face of obvious preparations for a full scale attack on it, including the stealthy blocking of its most vital lines of communication under cover of a fog of assurances, generously but mistily emitted by Mr. Tshombe's representatives …"
If that is the case—and I do not think that the Lord Privy Seal will deny it—it is clear that the United Nations action in this last week was taken purely in

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self-defence. I want to ask the Government another direct question. [Interruption.] I think that the evidence is overwhelming on this subject.
I want to ask whether the Government support the United Nations in defending themselves. It would be a good thing if we could have a clear answer. We ought for a moment to remember who the United Nations forces are—Indians, Swedes, Irish, Nigerians, Malayans, many of them soldiers of the Commonwealth. They are doing a job there because their Governments have supported the United Nations. They are risking their lives for a cause which their Governments have supported.
Frankly, I have been disgusted with the kind of implications which hon. Members opposite have been making. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is all the more regrettable since they come from those who claim, on other occasions, to be the staunchest supporters of the Commonwealth. They swallow any old atrocity story they get hold of. Do they realise that every single one of these stories has been denied?
Where do these stores come from? I quote from the Daily Telegraph of yesterday:
"Elisabethville.
United Nations jet fighters making repeated strikes in southern Katanga today shot up a hospital…near Jadotville, killing a child and wounding eight women in a maternity ward, according to the Belgian mining company Union Minière."
We all know perfectly well that a stream of lies and propaganda has been poured out by public relations experts employed for this purpose. I have never thought that public relations firms in internal politics were very pretty, but when they are brought into international affairs, they are a grave menace.
Finally, we have the extraordinary story of the bombs. We now know from what the Lord Privy Seal has told us that as long ago as 21st October the Government were asked to supply 24 1,000 lb. bombs.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: What did they want them for?
Mr. Gaitskell: I am coming to that.
The Government took their time to answer—some weeks—but that is perfectly understandable. What is not
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understandable is that, according to what the Prime Minister told me on Tuesday, they did not consult the United States Government about the sort of answer which they should give. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why should they?"] They did not. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why should they?"] The Prime Minister's answer to me was that he did not think that it would be "natural" to do so. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why should they?"] I should have thought that even hon. Members opposite would think it a good thing, in a matter of this vital importance, that we should try to keep in step with our strongest and greatest ally.
It would not have been surprising if the Government had queried—as hon. Members on both sides of the House have—the military case for these immense bombs. I would have well understood if they had said that they had told the United Nations that they could not see why these bombs were needed, and that if the United Nations really needed help in destroying aircraft on the ground, they would be prepared to offer them the small fragmentation bombs which are appropriate in these cases.
I would have understood that, and this is one of the things which I hope the Prime Minister will clear up. Was he satisfied, at least last Thursday night, that the military case for these bombs had been made out? Certainly, the Government were satisfied of the political necessity for them, because that the Lord Privy Seal has admitted. He made it plain in his statement on Monday that they were needed to protect United Nations forces, including those from Commonwealth countries, against air attack. That is on the record, and there is no need to dispute the matter.
If the case for providing the United Nations forces with bombs—which, apparently, according to Her Majesty's Government, were militarily required for the protection of the United Nations forces—was good last Thursday night, why is it no longer valid tonight? I hope that we shall not have trotted out to us all these absurd excuses about obscure remarks made, or alleged to have been made, by United Nations officials. Nobody believes this. All that this attempt to pretend that there was a different reason from the real one for the Government's change of front does is to expose

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the hopeless inefficiency of the Foreign Office.
My right hon. Friend's speech this afternoon was a devastating exposure of the hypocrisy of the Government. It is no part of our case to pretend that the Congo is not a difficult problem. Obviously it is. It presents the United Nations with probably the greatest challenge it has faced, but I venture to say that that is all the more reason why, in every possible way, we should have given maximum support to the United Nations in this whole affair.
Nobody outside this country believes that we have done so. We are lined up, as we have been on other occasions, with the ex-colonial European States, with Portugal, with Belgium, and with the same group with whom we were lined up over Angola, and with whom we used to line up before South Africa left the Commonwealth. Her Majesty's Government are under the gravest suspicion of being influenced by European financial interests. We have, in consequence, now become separated in this matter from every other Commonwealth country and from our closest and greatest ally. This is our indictment of the Government, whose weakness, pusillanimity and vacillation only show the utter decay into which they have fallen.
9.24 p.m.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Gaitskell) wound up the debate by putting, as is his wont, a number of questions. I shall try to cover the major points he raised.
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman because he quite clearly showed what we all feel, the anxiety over this matter, and the deep desire of everybody in the House, whatever his party, that peace and reconciliation should return to the Congo. I will only say that there are different kinds of peace. There is a famous epigram about a Roman conqueror who made a desert and called it peace. We do not want to see that in Katanga.
The Lord Privy Seal, in a very balanced speech, was answered by a speech which reminded me of the usual
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smears in which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) engages. That right hon. Gentleman tried all that stuff about big business with Lord Poole, but it did not go over very well. He dealt with the history of the past, but I do not want to go into the past. [Interruption.] It has been discussed in detail. I wish to say only that the past has shown, over a long period, the firm support that we have given, in money, materials and help, throughout this whole operation.
I come to the question of conciliation, and really the period beginning in September. We were in favour, of course, of removing the mercenaries. We did all we could to help. We wondered in September whether the methods used, leading to so much destruction and so many deaths, were really tolerable. It was for that reason that we appealed to the former Secretary-General and for that reason, after discussions with Lord Lansdowne, that it was the Secretary-General who decided that a cease-fire was necessary. It was he who did it.
We tried all we could for a negotiation between Tshombe and Adoula. Reference to this has already been made by my hon. Friends below the Gangway. We tried to establish a basis on which a unified Congo could function in peace and work out its destiny. We did not succeed. Unhappily, all those countries working with us—owing to conflicts which are only too well known—[Interruption.] In any case we tried to establish a meeting between Adoula and Tshombe, and so did our American friends along with us.
We tried with our Ambassador at Leopoldville and our Consul at Elisabethville, and it would be right for me now to pay tribute to the remarkable men we have had to represent our country during this crisis. Early in the year hopes were high. September put them back. We tried again. Then Adoula, as Premier of the whole of the Congo, suggested that Tshombe should go to Leopoldville. Tshombe refused, partly from fear as well as from dignity.
I believe we then suggested, and I think the Americans had the same idea, that Tshombe and Adoula might meet on mutual ground—perhaps in a boat or on a raft in the river and I think that the Americans even suggested an aeroplane.

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We have had no success so far. That is more likely to come when the fighting has stopped and a period of recovery has been allowed. Of course it is possible that Tshombe, obviously a very difficult man—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—yes, they are all very difficult characters; all fairly tough characters. It is possible that he may fall. He may be destroyed, perhaps by shell fire. His administration may collapse. What worries me is not so much that there will not be a meeting, but that the United Nations will find itself with a province as large as France on its hands and no means at all of governing it.
We have had some experience in our long history of how one can get led into one thing after another and how easy it is to get in—[Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, South talks of colonial Powers as if they were all part of a plan. He knows as well as I do that the great Imperial position in India and all over the world was built up bit by bit because the country got into the position where it had to assume responsibility for good administration, and what I fear most is what happens if we destroy the Government of Katanga.
I must say something about the incident of the bombs because I am responsible for it. I very much welcomed the support of the right hon. Member for Huyton when he said that we were absolutely right not to give bombs without these very clear restrictive conditions. Of course, that is the reason why the negotiations went on for so long. I shall refer to that later. It was because we wanted to maintain these conditions and there was a natural desire of the command to get them without conditions. Of course, it was a difficult decision. I agree exactly with what the right hon. Gentleman has said. We were told that there were troops of friendly countries who had gone in in good faith—four Commonwealth countries—who might be subject to serious attack from the air unless these aeroplanes and airfields could be dealt with.
We knew that these were not the best weapons. For the purpose for which they were needed rockets would be more effective than fragmentation bombs. But aiming rockets calls for great skill by the pilot, and, therefore, in all the cir-
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cumstances there was a case for the bombs. We discussed it with a great deal of concern. We reached the decision on Thursday night. It was sent to New York at eleven o'clock our time, six o'clock their time. It was not announced until Friday. I shall tell the right hon. Gentleman why it was not announced—because when they got it they came back again and preferred them without these restrictions. That was because they wanted a wider range for the use of this bomb, and it was only after a further day's discussion that we finally agreed on the restriction, and that took up the time from the Thursday to the Friday.
I was, in a way, rather relieved on the Friday morning when I was told that they would not have them with the restrictions but the argument went back and forth and it was finally settled. Of course, I knew there were dangers. There were dangers both ways. We have been accused of letting down the troops if we had not given them. Then I learned on Sunday the messages about the statements. I am not going to put too great a weight on them, but they were so alarming and there have been so many versions that I have provided myself with the last version, from The Times yesterday. What happened was that over the tape machine the question and answer got mixed up. This was the question:
"If the military strength on which a political regime is based is crushed, does that not mean that the régime must collapse?"
The answer was:
"Hypothetically seen, yes."
If the noble Lord below the Gangway were asked what the result would be if he and his friends carried a Motion of censure against the Government, would it mean the fall of the Government and the Prime Minister'?, he could, of course, say, "Hypothetically seen, yes." I should expect him to say something rather more robust, but it would come to the same thing. Anyway, the reports of these statements alarmed us. They alarmed the Americans. They alarmed the Secretary-General. That was why the Secretary-General issued, not an exact dementi, but a restatement, as soon as he could, of what he regarded to he the proper purpose.

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If there is one thing I deeply regret—and, of course, I apologise for it—it is that the Lord Privy Seal did not get on Monday the telegram about the correction in the Sunday paper. I must admit that here Transport House beat the Foreign Office in speed—[Interruption.]—but then private enterprise always wins. The statement of the Secretary-General still seemed to us somewhat equivocal. What we were worried about was how far were the military limited to securing the safety of the United Nations force? Of course, we accept what we were told. That was one of the questions asked. There may be difficulties on what are the real tactical needs to secure the safety of a force, but of course we accept that.
There may be a difference in arranging cease-fire conditions and how they can best be secured, but we were worried whether it was really to maintain the safety, that is, of the airport and headquarters, or whether some more far-reaching operations were being envisaged. It was that which concerned us. Lastly, when I heard, to my surprise, on Monday morning that these bombs, which were demanded from us as a matter of urgency to protect the lives of Commonwealth and other troops, were not even wanted until the next Friday—
Mr. Gaitskell: You had six weeks.
The Prime Minister: They could have collected them at once. If this were so urgent, why did they not send to collect them? They were already on the airfield on the Saturday. Then I wondered whether it was that with the limitation and the strings on them they were not now so urgent.
I see that it has been suggested in some of the Press—and it has been repeated in the debate—that the terms in which the United Nations authorities withdrew their request for the bomb were something of a snub for Her Majesty's Government. It could be interpreted quite differently. We shall not know until we know whether they succeed in getting bombs from elsewhere with or without strings. There were all these arguments, but what was really worrying us was not the statements of the officials—not even by Mr. O'Brien and the others who have
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happily left, or the new ones. What worried us was what was happening, the extension of fighting, and the apparent amount of operations which seemed more than was necessary for the sole purpose of securing the tactical safety of a force holding a position in a town and wanting to keep a road open and an airfield at its disposal.
It was these reports and these factors which convinced us that something must be done to end the fighting as the first priority as soon as it could properly be done. Of course, one cannot get a cease-fire in half an hour. Arrangements, discussions and positions have to be agreed. But we came to the conclusion that in this situation the first thing needed was to get a cease-fire. The fighting was getting worse. Its scope was extending. There were reports of attacks on industrial installations far away from the airport. This is inevitable perhaps, in war, but it will have a tragic effect upon the life of Katanga and the Congo.
Britain has a fairly long experience of trying to get decisions by force. In Cyprus we had to have twenty-two major units. If the feeling of the people is against one, in one way or another, one cannot get decisions by force. That is why I went to Athens and to Turkey, and that is why, as Foreign Secretary, I worked so hard to get a settlement of that situation, among others. Even if Elisabethville is captured after street fighting, street by street, I doubt whether there will be peace for the United Nations force. Some of us have had experience of soldiering under these conditions, and they are very disagreeable.
If the Katanga Government falls, who will run the province—without an administration, even a colonial administration? Because the Great Powers cannot have arms and cannot have skilled administrators there, the United Nations does not have people who are skilled in this form of administration or who have a life-long tradition in it. Therefore, it is obviously necessary to get a cease-fire as soon as possible.
The Amendment refers to efforts to restore law and order and prevent civil war. That is the real point. But the United Nations force has a right and a duty to take up positions and defend

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them to prevent civil war. What has alarmed us about the operations going on now is that they are not stopping civil war. It is not a war between two African groups. What is so terrible is the fact that this peaceful instrument, the United Nations, is not preventing civil war. This is a battle between the United Nations and the Katanga people. Therefore, recognising all the difficulties and remembering so much of past history in connection with these kinds of events, I fear that we may find the United Nations slipping into a war of conquest and then having to set up an administration. That is not their mandate, and not their business.
The right hon. Gentleman was very scornful about the reception given to our cease-fire proposal. He said that it was welcomed in N.A.T.O., but they are only Europeans. [Interruption.] He referred to the same old group. It consists of Germany, France, Italy, Belgium and Holland, among others, with whom we work day by day to defend ourselves. Our proposal has also been well received at home, as I believe will be shown tonight in the House.
I now want to come particularly to the position as between us and the United States. The right hon. Gentleman said—I do not know whether it was said with his tongue in his cheek—that it would be absolutely fatal for a British Government ever to get into a position of difficulty with the United States, and that we should do as much as possible to avoid it. [Interruption.] At any rate, he went very far in that direction. It shows the different approach we have to the problem. But here is the man who has asked us to have a deep and bitter quarrel with the United States about China—a quarrel which I fear we shall have. It will came next week, when the vote is taken. We cannot avoid it. We shall vote in the way we think right. I am not ashamed of putting up a different point of view, and I am sure that our friendships with the United States are quite strong enough to stand it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Did you consult them?"] Of course, we did not consult them; nor have they consulted us about the arms that they have sent. I should not expect them to consult us about the aeroplanes, arms and jets that they are sending to the United Nations. The
754
United Nations asked us to send these arms, and we raised questions only because we doubted whether the weapons requested were suitable for the purpose.
There is no difference about the long-term aims. We both believe in the unity of the Congo, and conciliation as a method of achieving it. Neither of us wants the United Nations to impose a settlement by force. I can assure the House that we are in very close contact with our American friends at every level. They are as conscious as we are of the dangers. The only difference is that they, perhaps, have a different view of the precise tactical position which should be secured in the airport and town before a cease-fire could operate. In other words, they suggest conditions for a cease-fire.
I recognise that if negotiations for a cease-fire started tomorrow there would have to be negotiations and conditions, but we feel that to impose too severe conditions might prolong the fighting without real advantage and with real danger. As I say, it is of great importance that we should move as closely as possible with the United States. We are in touch with them all the time on this matter. I think that our views are coming closer to theirs all the time. Before the debate ends I shall have an opportunity to make an announcement to the House which I think will show that that is so. At any rate, we shall be able to discuss these matters later.
I have a few minutes left in which I should like to answer some of the points raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton). I was sorry that I was not able to be here to hear his speech. I was out for a very short time. It comes down to the question of what are to be our relations with the United Nations, assuming that we can make no progress in our hopes.
First, I would say this. I have heard many good speeches which have repeated it, but it is always worth reminding ourselves of it. The United Nations' procedure is a very difficult procedure to operate effectively. There is this extraordinary system of voting. A country has to veto the whole of a resolution if one part of it is distasteful to it. The United Nations is, through the Security

755
Council, trying to act as a kind of political directive of what is now a military operation, but it has no chiefs of staff as we understand it. It has a very loose chain of command and the great difficulty is that the people in the Security Council are bitterly divided.
Mr. Stonehouse: Not on this.
The Prime Minister: There are the Communists and the anti-Communists, the Russians vetoing one part—[HON. MEMBERS: "They are united on this."] No, they are not. They are bitterly divided in the whole attitude towards life.
It is sometimes difficult to deal with the political part of a military operation even when allies are closely connected, fighting the same enemy and working towards the same end. I have some recollection of it in North Africa in 1942 and 1943. Britain and America were fighting Germans. We were agreed about that. Where we got into trouble was in dealing with the political situation—the Vichy admirals, de Gaulle, Giraud and the complicated political situation in France. Yet we were allies. It took us quite a time to sort it out and to get an agreed position.
In the United Nations, there is a number of countries represented in the Security Council—eleven Members bitterly divided between the Communists and the Western and allied Powers. Those are difficulties which we cannot remove. Nevertheless, we have given our full support and have given everything for which we have been asked and done all that we could to help.[HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."]
There is the question of the monetary subscription. I believe that we are one of the—is it?—nine Powers which have paid up as against eighty-seven which have not. The curious thing is—and I want to deal with this point because it is important—that there are two forms of subscription to the Congo. There is the compulsory subscription and the voluntary subscription. The only difference between them is this. The compulsory is the one that you do not pay if you do not want to, and the voluntary is the one that you need not pay unless you wish to. At present, Russia, which
756
solemnly votes on and vetoes resolutions on this matter, has not paid a penny either by way of compulsory or voluntary subscription.
The problem therefore arises: what is the line that we should take? My right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton and other hon. Members suggested that we ought perhaps. to consider whether we could get satisfaction from our appeal to the Secretary-General, if we could not get movement by this or other means, if we cut off our voluntary subscription. I will be frank and say that that does not attract me as a gesture which would be either effective or very dignified.
Mr. Turton: Will my right hon. Friend recollect that Sir Patrick Dean, at the United Nations, said that that was a contingency if we disagreed with the policy of the United Nations? Will he realise that the request is that, if this bombing of industrial targets continues, we should refuse to pay the voluntary subscription?
The Prime Minister: To do that now just because we cannot get, or do not happen to get, an immediate reply to what we want is not reasonable. There are other things that we can do. We can go to the Security Council. We have the opportunity of further discussion with the Americans, which will come to us very soon, in the next few days.
I would, therefore, ask hon. Members not to press us to take action prematurely which I think would be ineffective and which I believe we should all regret. It would be a bad decision—it might even be a tragic decision—if we were to take action which made people think that that we were abandoning the United Nations at a critical moment merely because we disagreed with a particular operation or with the method of a particular operation. I say firmly that I am against that, although I have not hesitated to give the criticism that we have against the operation and the hopes that we have to influence it in a different direction.
I am encouraged to some extent towards this view because I have just received the preliminary answer of the Secretary-General to our proposal. It

757
is written in the form of a letter to Sir Patrick Dean which arrived an hour or two ago, and it reads:
"Dear Sir Patrick, You have expressed to me certain anxieties of your Government as to the aims and objectives of the United Nations in the Congo. In reply, I would reaffirm that my aim and objective, and that of the United Nations Civil and Military authorities in the Congo, is to achieve the solution of the differences between the Central Government and the Provincial authorities in Katanga, in accordance with the resolutions of the Security Council and the General Assembly.
I would remind you that, in interpreting the authority placed in my hands by the Security Council on November 24, 1961, I said among other things…' In my view, national reconciliation should figure in our attempts to restore law and order in the Republic of the Congo.' Earlier in the same statement I said. 'Above all, I may assure you that the United Nations will continue and even redouble its attempts to achieve reconciliation, by peaceful means, of course, of the sharp differences which now seriously endanger the unity of the country.' I reaffirm what I said then, and to this end I have sent to Leopoldville two of my colleagues who have been most closely associated with the United Nations operations in the Congo to seek to achieve the objectives outlined above."
The two gentlemen who have been chosen are gentlemen in whom we, and I think everybody else, have confidence. They are Dr. Bunche and Mr. Gardiner. It is at least a hopeful first reply to our proposal that they are to be immediately dispatched to Leopoldville. [Interruption.] I am encouraged by this, because we have the possibility of assisting, with our representatives at Leopoldville and Elisabethville, as well as with the American Ambassador at Leopoldville, in this work. I do not, of course, rate this beyond what it represents, but it is a friendly response. It is not by any means a rebuff. It is a friendly response to try to get going what we all want to get going, which is, as we all believe, a cease-fire and some negotiation between these two leading people. If that is done, there is hope. I believe that it is at any rate an advance which would make us pause before we took some extreme measure. We should see what happens to this before we take any other extreme measure.
Mr. H. Wilson: Is not the Prime Minister aware that the statement of principles that he has just read out is in no way changed from that which has been stated by the United Nations throughout? With regard to the proposed mission, is he not aware that two or three days ago, certainly before the Government asked for a cease-fire, it was stated that Mr. Gardiner was going on this mission? The only change, which we of course welcome, is that Dr. Bunche is also going.
The Prime Minister: I quite agree about the difficult interpretation of these particular phrases which are supposed to govern us, and they have been repeated, but my point is that the spirit in which it is expressed is friendly. The return to us is friendly, and I think we must do our best to make available our help to bring this meeting about. If we cannot, it will be a tragic situation. The first thing we must try to do is to get a cease-fire and the meeting. If we fail in this, we shall have to try other means, but I am encouraged. I know that such a gesture of reasonable and fair response is that of the Secretary-General himself, but it also represents what he believes to be the views of the leading members of the Security Council on the Western side.
Mr. P. Williams: Can the Prime Minister clear up one simple point? Is the fighting to continue?
The Prime Minister: Of course, it will continue until there is a cease-fire. If there is a formal cease-fire it will stop. [Interruption.] On the other hand, I think that the United Nations command will keep a much closer control on some of these widespread attacks and relate it much more to the tactical needs, and I have every reason to hope that that will be done.
Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question:—
The House divided: Ayes 320, Noes 226.

Division No. 36.]

AYES

[9.58 p.m.

Agnew, Sir Peter

Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian

Balniel, Lord

Aitken, W. T.

Arbuthnot, John

Barber, Anthony

Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

Ashton, Sir Hubert

Barlow, Sir John

Allason, James

Atkins, Humphrey

Barter, John

Batsford, Brian

Gardner, Edward

MacArthur, Ian

Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

George, J. C. (Pollok)

McLaren, Martin

Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

Gibson-Watt, David

McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

Bell, Ronald

Gilmour, Sir John

Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

Glover, Sir Douglas

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy(Bute & N. Ayrs.)

Berkeley, Humphry

Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

Bidgood, John C.

Goodhart, Philip

McMaster, Stanley R.

Biffen, John

Goodhew. Victor

Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

Bingham, R. M.

Gough, Frederick

Macpherson, Nlal (Dumfries)

Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

Gower, Raymond

Maddan, Martin

Bishop, F. P.

Grant, Rt. Hon. William

Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

Black, Sir Cyril

Grant-Ferris, Wg. Cdr. R.

Markham, Major Sir Frank

Bossom, Clive

Green, Alan

Marlowe, Anthony

Bourne-Arton, A.

Gresham Cooke, R.

Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest

Box, Donald

Grosvenor, Lt. Col. R. G.

Marshall, Douglas

Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J.

Gurden, Harold

Marten, Neil

Boyle, Sir Edward

Halt, John (Wycombe)

Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

Braine, Bernard

Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Brewis, John

Hare, Rt. Hon. John

Mawby, Ray

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.- Col. Sir Walter

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

Brooman-White, R.

Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

Mills, Stratton

Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

Montgomery, Fergus

Browne, Percy (Torrington)

Harvey, Sir Arthur vere (Macclesf'd)

Moore, Sir Thomas (Ayr)

Bryan, Paul

Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

More, Jasper (Ludlow)

Buck, Antony

Harvie Anderson, Miss

Morgan, William

Bullard, Denys

Hastings, Stephen

Morrison, John

Bullus, wing Commander Eric

Hay, John

Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

Burden, F. A.

Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

Nabarro, Gerald

Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nalrn)

Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

Neave, Airey

Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

Hendry, Forbes

Nicholls, Sir Harmar

Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

Hicks Beach, Maj. W.

Nicholson. Sir Godfrey

Cary, Sir Robert

Hiley, Joseph

Noble, Michael

Channon, H. P. G.

Hill. Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

Nugent, Sir Richard

Chataway, Christopher

Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

Churchill, Rt. Hon. sir Winston

Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

Hirst, Geoffrey

Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

Hobson, John

Osborn, John (Haliam)

Cleaver, Leonard

Hocking, Philip N.

Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

Cole, Norman

Holland, Philip

Page, Graham (Crosby)

Cooke, Robert

Hollingworth, John

Page, John (Harrow, West)

Cooper, A. E.

Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John

Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

Hopkins, Alan

Partridge, E.

Cordle, John

Hornby, R. P.

Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

Corfield, F. V.

Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

Percival, Ian

Costain, A. P.

Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives)

Peyton, John

Coulson, J. M.

Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Craddock, Sir Beresford

Hughes-Young, Michael

Pilkington, Sir Richard

Critchley, Julian

Hulbert, Sir Norman

Pitman, Sir James

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. Sir Oliver

Hurd, Sir Anthony

Pitt, Miss Edith

Crowder, F. P.

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Pott, Percivall

Cunningham, Knox

Iremonger, T. L.

Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

Curran, Charles

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Currie, G. B. H.

James, David

Price, H. A. (Lewisham, w.)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Jennings, J. C.

Prior, J. M. L.

Dance, James

Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

d' Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Proudfoot, Wilfred

Deedes, w. F.

Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

Pym, Francis

de Ferranti, Basil

Jones, Rt. Hn. Aubrey (Hall Green)

Quennell, Miss J. M.

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Joseph, Sir Keith

Ramsden, James

Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M,

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Rawlinson, Peter

Doughty, Charles

Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

Redmayne, Rt- Hon. Martin

Drayson, G. B.

Kerr, Sir Hamilton

Rees, Hugh

du Cann, Edward

Kimball, Marcus

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Duncan, Sir James

Kitson, Timothy

Renton, David

Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

Lagden, Godfrey

Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Ridsdale, Julian

Elliott, R.W.(Nwcstle-upon-Tyne, N.)

Langford Holt, J.

Rippon, Geoffrey

Emery, Peter

Leather, E. H. C.

Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

Leburn, Gilmour

Robson Brown, Sir William

Errington, Sir Eric

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

Erroll, Dt. Hon. F. J.

Lilley, F. J. P.

Roots, William

Farey-Jones, F. W.

Lindsay, Martin

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Farr, John

Linstead, Sir Hugh

Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

Finlay, Graeme

Litchfield, Capt John

Russell, Ronald

Fisher, Nigel

Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey(Sut'nC'dfield)

St. Clair, M.

Fietcher-Cooke, Charles

Lloyd Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan

Foster, John

Longbottom, Charles

Scott-Hopkins, James

Fraser, Hn. Hugh (Stafford & Stone)

Longden, Gilbert

Seymour, Leslie

Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

Loveys, Walter H.

Sharples, Richard

Freeth, Denzil

Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

Shaw, M.

Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

Shepherd, William

Gammans, Lady

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir Jocelyn

760

761

Skeet, T. H. H.

Taylor, w. J. (Bradford, N.)

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. sir Derek

Smith, Dudey (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

Teeling, William

Ward, Dame Irene

Smithers, Peter

Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

Webster, David

Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

Thomas, Peter (Convay)

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

Whitelaw, William

Spearman, Sir Alexander

Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.)

Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

Speir, Rupert

Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

Stanley, Hon. Richard

Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Stevens, Geoffrey

Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

Wise, A. R.

Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

Turner, Colin

Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

Stodart, J. A.

Tweedsmuir, Lady

Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Woodhouse, C. M.

Storey, Sir Samuel

Vane, W. M. F.

Woodnutt, Mark

Studholme, Sir Henry

Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Woollam, John

Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)

Vickers, Miss Joan

Worsley, Marcus

Talbot, John E.

Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

Tapsell, Peter

Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Walder, David

Mr. E. Wakefield and

Taylor, Frank (M'ch'st'r, Moss Side)

Walker, Peter

Mr. Chichester-Clark.

NOES

Abse, Leo

Greenwood, Anthony

Mayhew, Christopher

Ainsley, William

Grey, Charles

Mellish, R. J.

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

Mendelson, J. J.

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

Milne, Edward J.

Awbery, Stan

Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

Mitchison, G. R.

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Grimond, Rt. Hon. J.

Monslow, Walter

Bence, Cyril

Gunter, Ray

Moody, A. S.

Bennett, J (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

Morris, John

Benson, Sir George

Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

Mort, D. L.

Blackburn, F.

Hamilton, William (west Fife)

Moyle, Arthur

Blyton, William

Hannan, William

Mulley, Frederick

Boardman, H.

Hart, Mrs. Judith

Neal, Harold

Bowden, Herbert w. (Leics, S.W.)

Hayman, F. H.

Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

Healey, Denis

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip(Derby, S.)

Bowles, Frank

Herbison, Miss Margaret

Oliver, G. H.

Boyden, James

Hill, J. (Midlothian)

Oram, A. E.

Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

Hilton, A. V.

Oswald, Thomas

Brockway, A. Fenner

Holman, Percy

Owen, Will

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Holt, Arthur

Padley, W. E.

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

Houghton, Douglas

Paget, R. T.

Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

Callaghan, James

Hoy, James H.

Pargiter, G. A.

Chapman, Donald

Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Parker, John

Cliffe, Michael

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

Paton, John

Collick, Percy

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Pavitt, Laurence

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Hunter, A. E.

Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Hynd, H. (Accrington)

Peart, Frederick

Cronin, John

Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

Pentland, Norman

Crosland, Anthony

Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

Plummer, Sir Leslie

Cullen, Mrs. Alice

Janner, Sir Barnett

Popplewell, Ernest

Darling, George

Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

Prentice, R. E.

Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

Jeger, George

Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

Probert, Arthur

Davies, Ifor (Gower)

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

Randall, Harry

Deer, George

Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

Rankin, John

Delargy, Hugh

Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

Redhead, E. C.

Dempsey, James

Kelley, Richard

Reid, William

Diamond, John

Kenyon, Clifford

Rhodes, H.

Dodds, Norman

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Donnelly, Desmond

Lawson, George

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Driberg, Tom

Ledger, Ron

Robertson, John (Paisley)

Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

Ross, William

Edelman, Maurice

Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

Short, Edward

Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

Lipton, Marcus

Silverman, Julius (Aston)

Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

Logan, David

Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

Evans, Albert

Loughlin, Charles

Skeffington, Arthur

Fernyhough, E.

Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

Finch, Harold

MacColl, James

Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

Fitch, Alan

McInnes, James

Small, William

Fletcher, Eric

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

Foot, Dingle (Ipswich)

Mackie, John (Enfield, East)

Snow, Julian

Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

McLeavy, Frank

Sorensen, R. W.

Forman, J. C.

MacMillan, Malcolm (western Isles)

Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh

MacPherson, Malcolm (Sterling)

Spriggs, Leslie

Galpern, Sir Myer

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Steele, Thomas

George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Crmrthn)

Manuel, A. C.

Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

Ginsburg, David

Mapp, Charles

Stonehouse, John

Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. p. C.

Marsh, Richard

Stones, William

Gourlay, Harry

Mason, Roy

Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

762

763

Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)

Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

Stross, Dr. Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

Wade, Donald

Williams, w. T. (Warrington)

Swain, Thomas

Wainwright, Edwin

Wills, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

Swingler, Stephen

Warbey, William

Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

Symonds, J. B.

Watkins, Tudor

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

Weitzman, David

Woof, Robert

Taylor, John (West Lothian)

Wells, Percy (Faversham)

Wyatt, Woodrow

Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

White, Mrs. Eirene

Yates, William (The Wrekin)

Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

wigg, George

Zilliacus, K.

Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

Thornton, Ernest

Wilkins, w. A.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Thorpe, Jeremy

Willey, Frederick

Mr. Charles A. Howell and

Timmons, John

Williams, D. J. (Neath)

Mr. McCann.

Tomney, Frank

Williams, LI. (Abertillery)

Main Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House supports the action of Her Majesty's Government in making a formal request to the Secretary-General of the United
764
Nations to secure an immediate cease-fire in Katanga in order to bring to an end the destruction of life and property resulting from the present fighting and thus create conditions in which, in a united Congo, a peaceful and just basis for co-operation may be negotiated.

BUTTER (ANTI-DUMPING DUTY)
10.11 p.m.
The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Sir Keith Joseph): I beg to move,
That the Anti-Dumping Duty Order, 1961 (S.I., 1961 No. 2255), dated 23rd November, 1961, a copy of which was laid before this House on 28th November, be approved.
This Order imposes an anti-dumping duty of £10 5s. per cwt. on butter originating in the Irish Republic. This Order has been applied to the Republic of Ireland by my right hon. Friend with the very greatest regret, but I would remind the House of the situation that has caused him to take this action. The House will recall that there has been during the whole of this year a considerable pressure of butter supplies dumped or subsidised on the United Kingdom market and this pressure has caused considerable concern to our suppliers, and especially to New Zealand, the largest supplier of our butter.
Consequently, New Zealand and Denmark applied for anti-dumping duties on butter imported into the United Kingdom from several countries. Her Majesty's Government, realising that this pressure came from the aggregate of the butter sent to us from a number of different countries, thought that the proper solution to aim at was a voluntary scheme of self-restraint between a number of these supplying countries. Therefore, Her Majesty's Government proposed a meeting of the supplying countries under the G.A.T.T. at Geneva.
The meeting was duly convened and we made it clear in seeking such a meeting that, failing an agreement, we should have urgently to consider the action sought by New Zealand and Denmark under the anti-dumping laws. At the meeting a programme to limit butter shipments for a period of six months from 1st October this year, to provide a breathing space during which a long-term solution could be sought, was proposed. As the House is aware, no agreement was arrived at. Consequently, my right hon. Friend's Department had to consider New Zealand's application for duties under the Customs Duties (Dumping and Subsidies) Act, 1957. My right hon. Friend
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reached the conclusion that dumped and subsidised butter imported into Britain threatened material injury to the New Zealand dairy industry and he therefore decided that action should be taken.
However, even having decided that that action should be taken, the British Government thought that the proper, fair and reasonable course to relieve the pressure on the British market would be to try to achieve a voluntary restraint by the supplying countries. All the main supplying countries were therefore asked to accept the programme of shipments which had been proposed during the G.A.T.T. talks at Geneva, but the Government made it abundantly clear that they would have to take action under the Customs Duties (Dumping and Subsidies) Act on any imports of butter from any country which was not prepared to co-operate in voluntary restraint.
As the House will remember, as a result of this approach arrangements to limit shipments as suggested were made by every one of the other countries concerned, but to our great regret the Irish Republic could not feel able to agree to restrict exports to the quantity proposed. In fairness to the other countries concerned, we had to act as we said we would, and on 23rd November an Order was made laying anti-dumping duty on butter from the Irish Republic.
Mr. Hector Hughes: The Minister has singled out the Republic of Ireland as against a number of other nations. He has indicated that he was successful in his negotiations with the other nations but not with the Government of the Republic of Ireland. Will he specify the attempts he made to come to an agreement with the Republic of Ireland? What aspects of the agreement were successful and what were not? Why, ultimately, was the agreement not arrived at?
Sir K. Joseph: The Republic of Ireland was, of course, represented at the September conference at Geneva and therefore knew all along about the proposals for voluntary restraint. There then followed a stage during which my right hon. Friend had to study the application by New Zealand for the use

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of the anti-dumping procedure. During all this time, the Government of the Republic of Ireland knew that the problem was still very much alive.
Once my right hon. Friend had decided that the case was made out, he approached the various countries that were putting butter into our market and which had been concerned at the Geneva conference, and sought their co-operation in carrying out the agreement in the new situation in which dumping had been found to be going on. Therefore, the Government of the Republic of Ireland had been conscious since September both of the problem and of the likely outcome if dumping were to be established and of the solution which the Government would propose.
The actual proposal to the Republic, as one of the supplying countries, to apply voluntary restraint was with the Government of the Republic for about a month. Towards the end of that month, a high-powered deputation from Ireland came to London and conducted talks with Ministers here.
There can be no question that the Republic was given no warning of what was in mind. It had plenty of time to consider this. We greatly regret that it did not avail itself of the quota that was made available to it by the G.A.T.T. proposal. The proposal was that it should be empowered to supply 4,000 tons of butter and it is of its own doing that it is not availing itself of that quota. The other countries approached are taking up their quotas within the voluntary restraint proposed.
Mr. Hector Hughes: The hon. Gentleman has not given me the details I asked for. It is all very well to say that the Government of the Republic of Ireland knew of the conference and did not attend it and later sent someone to London to discuss the matter with the British Government.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Sir William Anstruther-Gray): Order. It would not be proper to conduct this debate by way of question and answer. Hon. Members are entitled to make one speech each. The Minister can reply more than once, but there can be only one speech for each hon. Member. We are not in Committee stage.
Mr. Hector Hughes: I am not making a speech, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I am prefacing what I want to ask by some statement which would lead up to the question. My question is: will the Minister state specifically what aspects of the topic were agreed between the two Governments and what were not agreed? What are still outstanding which prevent complete agreement?
Sir K. Joseph: The only point outstanding is whether or not the Republic of Ireland will accept a quota. No other issue is at stake. It has had the opportunity to put 4,000 tons of butter into our market. It has, alas, refused that opportunity. I am not aware of any other issue outstanding between us.
10.22 p.m.
Mr. John Mackie: I do not want to delay the House at this time of night. I do not like all-night sittings and I consider this hour reasonably late. We have heard a great deal about our shortage of foreign exchange and that we are a hard-up country. We can scarcely say that everybody eats butter. Many people eat margarine. We have not too much butter in the country. Will not the levying of £10 5s. 0d. a cwt. reduce the supply of butter to the people? Is not that wrong? The Government should not stay tied to not having controls. It would be much better to have cheap butter and balance out the price, as was done before the war with wheat.
We have to import many things and when other countries are offering them cheaply we should buy them as cheaply as we can. if that affects home producers, then a balance could be struck if the Government were able to accept some measure of control. Merely to try to keep out butter in order to keep up the price and thus keep butter away from the people of this country seems to be ridiculous.
I appeal to the Government to think a little more about the people of this country and a little less about their idea that prices should not be controlled, or that the system should be controlled by balancing out prices. I appeal to the Minister of State to give this matter a little more consideration and not to be concerned only with the G.A.T.T.
10.25 p.m.
Mr. Douglas Jay: To avoid the Minister of State having to make too many speeches, I will ask him one or two questions before he replies to my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Mackie). Incidentally, I notice that, although the Government profess to find it impossible to exclude Irish immigrants, they have much less difficulty in placing restrictions on the supply of butter from Ireland.
I am not prepared to say that there are no circumstances in which it would be justifiable to levy anti-dumping duties—and I do not imagine that my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East is, and he knows more about farming than I do. But we have had an extremely meagre explanation from the Minister of State of the case for the imposition of these duties. After all, we are being asked to place a tax on a major foodstuff consumed by the people of this country. Other things being equal and without explanation, one would have thought that on the whole it was better to leave important foodstuffs untaxed, keeping the cost of living down, rather than to tax them. What effect will the Order have on the price of butter? The hon. Gentleman has told us nothing about that. What will be the effect of the whole operation of limiting the supply from other countries and placing this tax upon Irish butter? The hon. Gentleman has not told us and he has not told us what he expects to be the effect of this Order.
I have always understood that this anti-dumping legislation was to be brought into effect only when it had been shown that some commodity was being sold on the British market not merely cheaper than previously, or cheaper than the price at which the United Kingdom producers could manufacture it, but below the cost of production in the country of origin. I think that the Minister of State will agree that that is the basic principle of these duties. He gave us absolutely no evidence that that was so in this case. It may be so, but we would like to know. From which countries other than the Irish Republic—and presumably the Irish Republic is such a country—was butter being imported into this country and sold at prices below the cost of production in the original countries?
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Was it being sold here at prices which were simply injurious to the New Zealand producer? I understand that that is a serious matter, and the Government are quite right to take that into account. Was it being sold at prices which were injurious to the United Kingdom producer as well? The hon. Gentleman did not tell us that, and, as he will agree, in this legislation it is necessary not merely to say that the commodity is being sold below the cost of production, but also that its sale is damaging to national interests. One would wish to know whether that is alleged. I do not know, but we ought to know whether it was damaging the producers in this country as well as those in New Zealand.
We have not been told what the reasons of the Irish Government were. The Minister may disagree with them, but one wonders why the Irish Government declined to make this voluntary agreement to limit its exports of butter as other countries were willing to do—and we do not know what the other countries were. Did the Irish Government accept the view of the British Government that it was dumping butter, in the accepted sense, or did it not agree the figures of its costs and prices and so on which, apparently, the British Government had accepted? Was there a dispute about the facts, or did the Irish Government simply say, "The facts are correct; we are selling our butter in your market extremely cheaply and below our costs of production, but"—for some reason—"we refuse to reach any voluntary agreement"? One would need to know that in order to be acquainted with the nature of the dispute with the Irish Republic, because the Minister did not explain that.
Finally, can the Minister say how long he expects this arrangement to last? Action has been taken by the Government which is clearly imposing a fairly major limitation on the supplies of butter to this country and which will presumably raise the price above the level at which the consumer would have been able to buy it. Is that arrangement to last for an indefinite period until he or someone else alters it? I suppose that the Order will remain in effect until the Government ask Parliament to revoke it. Or has the hon. Gentleman some

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temporary, emergency arrangement in mind?
That is all I wanted to ask the Minister. If he wants more time to find out the answers, some of my hon. Friends may be able to add a few relevant words. I should be grateful if we could have that information before we approve the Order.
Sir K. Joseph rose—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Mr. Driberg.
10.30 p.m.
Mr. Tom Driberg: While the Parliamentary Private Secretary is finding out the answers which the Minister does not know, I will fill in a few minutes in support of what has been said by right hon. and hon. Friends. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) said, the Minister's explanation has been so far exceedingly meagre. I wonder whether it is not because there is a rather shabby connection between this Order and the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill. We had references the other afternoon in Committee on that disgraceful Bill to the desirability—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. I hope that the hon. Member will not go further than this rather narrow question we are debating.
Mr. Driberg: No, indeed I will not, and I am grateful to you for reminding me of the necessity of not doing so.
I am venturing to suggest, though I hope the suggestion is misplaced, that this is perhaps a form of economic sanctions which the Government are applying to the Republic of Ireland in order to induce the Republic to accept the proposals with regard to the Commonwealth immigration which the Attorney-General the other afternoon said it was highly desirable that the Republic should accept. Again and again he said we hoped that the Republic of Ireland will prevent immigrants coming in; we can, of course, erect a fence around the United Kingdom; and so on. This Order, to which what I am saying is directly relevant, is part of the fence round the United Kingdom. This may be part of the economic sanctions by which the Government are trying to
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enforce the restriction of immigration of the Republic of Ireland. Therefore, it may be that we shall have to resist this Order.
The second suspicion which crosses my mind, again directly relevantly to the Order is one which is excited by the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Mackie), who pointed out that we have not too much butter in this country, that on the whole probably more people eat what some call "marjarine"—what purists like the Minister would probably call "margarine"—than eat butter.
Now if I may carry your mind back, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, without your calling me to order, to the Television Act, 1954, you will recall that, despite the strenuous opposition of such eminent supporters of the Government as the present Lord President of the Council and Minister for Science, that Measure was rushed and steamrollered through both Houses of Parliament as the result of the activities of a small group of back bench Members of this House on the Government side who were interested in advertising, in public relations, and promoting commercial television.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am reluctant to interrupt the hon. Member if he really thinks he is in order, but I find it impossible to comprehend how he can be.
Mr. Driberg: I will do my best to enlighten you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, with very great respect. If you are as frequent a watcher of television, including commercial television, as I am—and I think that from the nature of your duties you cannot be—you will realise that among the most frequent advertisers on commercial television are the margarine producers. One of them, indeed—which I will not mention by name—boasts that its product contains 10 per cent. of butter. This is supposed to be an asset, thus indicating how much better butter is than margarine.
A century ago it was probably true to say that the Conservative Party was the party which represented the rural interests of this country, the landed interests, the producers of butter, the dairy farmers and so on. In the last half century or more those interests have become much less predominant in the

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Conservative Party. They have been replaced by various rather unsavoury big business interests like the importers of meat from Argentina. All those things have a much higher priority in the councils of the Conservative Party than the dairy farmers have. I am merely suggesting that the Government are introducing this Order perhaps—I hope the Minister will be able to deny it because I have some regard for the honour of Her Majesty's Government—because the commercial television and the margarine lobby is now much more powerful in the Conservative Party than the agricultural lobby.
10.36 p.m.
Sir K. Joseph: I think I can answer together the points raised by the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) and of the hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Mackie). I am sure that they and the House will agree that if it were left to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade and, indeed, to the Government's discretion to try to hold the balance between consumers' interests and suppliers' interests without any guidance from Parliament, it would be an extremely invidious and difficult task.
We have, on the one hand, the farming community of New Zealand and we have, on the other, the consumers in this country. But Parliament has laid down the circumstances in which the Government are required to consider any application for anti-dumping duties and the criteria which the Government pursue. They are laid down in the Customs Duties (Dumping and Subsidies) Act, 1957.
If I may dispose straight away of the cautious allegations of the hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Driberg), I would emphatically deny any connection whatsoever between these two pieces of legislation. Only let him realise—perhaps he did not realise it—that this whole use of the Customs Duties Act which has led to this Order is at the initiative of an injured, or a supposedly injured, party. This was only put into operation when an allegation was made in this case by New Zealand and Denmark. No initiative lay in this country in this instance, though an initiative might have laid with our own farmers. But the initiative in this case came from
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New Zealand. I know the hon. Gentleman will be prompt to believe that the New Zealanders do not jump at our bidding, particularly when it comes to making an application for their own benefit. So I hope that I can dispose of any such thought in his mind.
Of course, any general restraint upon the arrival of butter in this market. such as has been achieved by the voluntary acceptance by a number of countries of the quota scheme proposed by the G.A.T.T. September meeting at our request, must have some influence on prices. Neither I nor anybody can distinguish what part of the effective prices is due to that voluntary restraint on the part of a large number of supplying countries with a massive total aggregate supply in the past few months, and, on the other hand, the influence of the very small or relatively small diminution of supplies from Ireland.
In fact, as a result of these influences and possibly of other influences, since other influences—though I cannot trace them—may come in, the price of butter has hardened in the last few weeks from about 260s. a cwt. to about 285s. a cwt. This is a moderately sad thing for the home consumer but, as I shall seek to point out, the home consumers' interests are best served by seeing that we get a regular supply of butter at reasonable prices year in and year out. That is what New Zealand has supplied to this country.
Mr. Jay: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us how much the price had previously fallen during the period of the alleged dumping?
Sir K. Joseph: I have not got the exact figure of fall, but it had come down to a figure of 250s., which had caused substantial injury to the New Zealand and, it was said by them, to the Danish farmers. That is what we are considering in this situation. I have not got in my mind the figures from which it had fallen.
As to harm being done to consumers in this country, butter is still much cheaper here than in any other country of Western Europe. It is about 80s. per cwt. cheaper now than it was at the end of rationing in 1954. These are encouraging facts which we should bear in mind.

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The right hon. Gentleman asked for some details about the price in Ireland compared with the price at which Irish butter was being sold here. The wholesale price in Ireland was 465s. per cwt., and it was being sold here at about 260s. per cwt., and that is why the duty has been put at the difference between those two figures—205s.
The right hon. Gentleman also asked whether the dumping was damaging to our own producers. We must remember that our own producers supply only about 10 per cent. of our market. In fact, no application for anti-dumping duties came from our own farmers. My right hon. Friend can pay heed only to an applicant's case, and in this case the applicant was New Zealand.
Mr. Jay: And Denmark.
Sir K. Joseph: Yes, and Denmark; but, in fact, we took action on the New Zealand case since it presented us with a much fuller case than Denmark did and we were able to deal with the matter more quickly on the basis of the New Zealand application.
Three things have to be established before my right hon. Friend can apply anti-dumping duties. First, he has to be satisfied that there is dumping or subsidisation; and he was satisfied in this case that there was. Second, he has to be satisfied that there is material damage to an industry, and that industry can be either in this country or, in certain circumstances, in one of our supplying countries. In this case, it was material injury to an industry in one of our supplying countries, namely New Zealand, that my right hon. Friend found. Third, he must be satisfied that it is to the national interest of this country that anti-dumping duties shall be applied.
The national interest of this country was affected in two ways. First, it would be very sad for this country and the consumers here if the New Zealand butter industry, which has been our regular supplier year in year out for the vast bulk of our butter, were to be disrupted by wholesale dumping by other countries. That would be in mind. Second, we have to take into account the fact that New Zealand is a staunch friend and member of the Common-
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wealth, and therefore, we pay particular attention to her interests.
The right hon. Gentleman asked me if I could penetrate the reasons why the Republic of Ireland had not fallen in, as the other countries had, with the quota proposals. Frankly, it is beyond me. I can only imagine that they naturally did not like the idea of curtailing their supplies to a quota level, particularly when they have been suppliers of this country for a long time, to some extent irregularly since the war, but now, of course, we are faced with new facts, and in the light of those new facts we have to take action. My right hon. Friend is extremely sorry that they have denied themselves of what the other countries have accepted, namely a market, even though a limited one, in this country.
I would remind the House that the 4,000 tons that the Republic of Ireland was offered, though not as much as the 10,000 tons it has delivered in the first part of this year, is more than the average tonnage it landed in this country during the four previous periods. It was by no means a small tonnage in comparison with its last supplies.
Finally, I was asked how long the Order would continue. It lasts until it is revoked by a Resolution under the negative procedure. I cannot really answer the question, because the whole purpose of the operation is to secure a breathing-space in which we can, if possible, secure international agreement to stop this sort of thing happening again, and we must see by the end of the six months' period where we are. So I cannot answer the last part of the question.
Mr. Mackie: The hon. Gentleman has not answered the question. Is this likely to decrease the supply of butter or to increase the price? Surely, it is possible to take advantage of our deepfreeze arrangements for butter and allied products in these circumstances, so that what he has said does not apply.
Sir K. Joseph: I have said that I cannot isolate one strand in the combination of factors, but I have said that the price of butter has gone up since voluntary restraint was applied and also since the anti-dumping duties were applied to the Republic of Ireland and its tonnage ceased to arrive here. There

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may be other factors. The price has gone up. I do not believe that supplies are significantly restricted. The channels of supply for butter are perfectly adequate to fill in where they happen to be momentarily short.
Mr. Jay: I do not wish to pursue this too far, but the Minister did not answer one question I asked, which is, I think, relevant and factual. Apart from the Republic of Ireland, which other countries, in the opinion of the Government, were dumping butter here, and which have now apparently agreed voluntarily to restrict supplies?
Sir K. Joseph: The other countries which have voluntarily agreed to restrict supplies were set out in the Answer to a Question on 4th December. They are the Argentine, Finland, the Netherlands, Poland, South Africa, France, Norway, Sweden, and a very small element from others, including Kenya.
Mr. Driberg: Is it or is it not the case—since this is the inevitable consequence of this Order—that the Government want the public to eat more margarine and less butter?
Sir K. Joseph: I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman would have realised that no initiative lies in the hands of the Government in this. We respond to the application, which in this case came from New Zealand. What we do to each application is governed by Parliamentary procedure here.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Anti-Dumping Duty Order, 1961 (S.I., 1961, No. 2255), dated 23rd November, 1961, a copy of which was laid before this House on 28th November, be approved.

HOPS (IMPORTATION)
10.47 p.m.
The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Sir Keith Joseph): I beg to move,
That the Hops (Import Regulation) Order, 1961 (S.I., 1961, No. 2251), dated 22nd November, 1961, a copy of which was laid before this House on 28th November, be approved.
The purpose of this Order is to ensure the maintenance of arrangements for the orderly marketing of hops. The Order is made under Section 43 of the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1958.
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In this case, before making an Order my right hon. Friend must be satisfied on three things. First, that steps have been, or are being, taken to secure the efficient reorganisation of the industry in this country, and that its efficient organisation would be jeopardised if imports were not regulated. Secondly, he must be satisfied that the interests of consumers and manufacturers are not prejudiced by the Order. Thirdly, that the Government's international obligations are not breached by the Order. My right hon. Friend is so satisfied.
A substantial amount of capital is needed for the growing of hops. I am told that they the plants take about three years to mature, so the growers cannot respond flexibly and quickly to changes in the world marketing situation. The industry, therefore, is vulnerable if left unprotected to changes in the world supply position, and during the whole of this century there have been violent fluctations in the world supply of hops, and of the price of them.
In the first thirty years of this century the industry used to be buffeted by violent changes in the price from year to year, and by violent disruptive pressures from outside this country. As a result of this pressure, in 1932 the marketing scheme for the growing and selling of hops was set up under the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1931, and this scheme is working well to this day.
It has continued to provide the consumers of this country with hops at prices which have varied only relatively little since then, despite the most violent fluctuations in supplying countries, and I give as an example two successive years in West Germany when the price of hops varied from £8 to £110 per cwt. Our hop growers have been insulated against these sort of pressures and their prices have stayed at between £27 and £35 per cwt. Of course, as a corollary to this marketing scheme at home under the Agricultural Marketing Act, some import control was essential to insulate the home market from these fluctuations.
In 1934, the then Minister of Agriculture set up a Committee, whose Report was presented to Parliament, and in that year an agreement was entered into between the Hops Marketing Board and the Brewers' Association. These two bodies agreed to restrict imports of

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English-type hops, except in those years when the home supplies were inadequate and to allow imports in limited quantities of lager and other speciality types of hops which cannot be produced here. These voluntary arrangements—which were on that occasion blessed by the then Minister of Agriculture—have been approved by successive Governments since then. The import control has worked satisfactorily since 1934 and has provided the British hop industry with reasonable supplies so that it has been able to provide stable prices for the hops the brewers require for these special varieties of beer.
The hop growers will need insulation in the future and, in the light of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, a proper scheme now requires Parliamentary sanction. Hence this Order. Under the Order, licensing will be undertaken by the Board of Trade in consultation with the Permanent Joint Hops Committee, which is a body with a chairman and two members nominated by the Minister of Agriculture, with its membership divided between the Hops Marketing Board and the Brewers' Association. Thus its membership is representative half of the supplies and half of the consumers.
Licences will be issued within a quota approved by my right hon. Friend, but any application will be granted whether or not the applicant is a member of any particular society, body or organisation, provided he holds a contract from a brewer saying that the brewer requires his hops. It is not envisaged in the immediate future that the overall quota will vary materially from that which operated previously—and at 31st September last it was set at 8,000 cwt. Because of the shortage of hops on the home market, licences are at the moment being given outside the quota. Normally, when there is not a condition of shortage, the quota will be used mainly for the importing of hops suitable for lager and other speciality beers for which English home-grown hops are not appropriate.
The licensing arrangements should not interfere with the normal pattern of imports, which come mainly from West Germany, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia and Belgium. This is, in fact, only a
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change in the method, and not in the substance. The procedure for securing supplies of hops will not endanger the stability of home hop growers and marketing will be continued by the statutory method.
The purpose remains the same. The substance remains the same. The effect on the public and the foreign suppliers is unaltered. Only the procedure is altered and I hope that the House will approve the Order.
10.54 p.m.
Mr. Douglas Jay: I gather that the necessity for this Order arises out of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act. I am puzzled about this, because the Act became law, I think, in 1956, or 1957, and I do not quite understand why, when the old arrangements have been proceeding for four or five years, it suddenly becomes necessary to make this change now.
The hon. Gentleman's words were that in the light of the Restrictive Trade Practices legislation it was proper that this scheme should have parliamentary sanction. What did he mean by that? Did he mean if we do not legislate by this Order tonight the Government and the various growers and traders have been doing, they might not have been doing? Perhaps he meant that in the view of the Government it was illegal under the Act or that, perhaps, it amounted to an agreement which should have been registered under the Act. If so, is there any reason why the hon. Gentleman should not say so clearly and let us know what has been the legal position of this scheme during the four or five years since the Act came into operation? Secondly, the Minister said that in the absence of an arrangement of this kind—I do not question this fact at all—there would be what he described as probably violent fluctuations in price. Although this scheme might be justified, are we to infer that were we not to adopt the scheme of regulation, the price of hops would be lower? In the opinion of the Government would that affect the price of beer, since he has said that the hops produced here are used for the purpose of manufacturing beer. Can he say, for instance, whether, when there were violent fluctuations downwards in the price of hops, that reflected itself in the price of beer? Are we justified or not

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in taking a decision which may make the price of beer higher than it otherwise would be?
10.56 p.m.
Mr. John Wells: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister of State for giving such a clear and concise history of this Order and all that went before it before the Hops Marketing Board came into being in 1932.
The essential in British hop marketing today is stability. I was delighted that my hon. Friend used that word two or three times in his remarks, because the stability which we enjoy in the hop producing industry is essential to the horticultural interests of six counties. The whole hop growing and hop marketing industry is complex. It is faced with great difficulties such as the disease known as "wilt", about which I shall not bore the House tonight, but which is a great problem to horticulturists. Violent fluctuations in price were most alarming in the past. Countries of the Common Market are suffering from such fluctuations and they look at our orderly and excellent hop marketing with considerable envy. I expect that at a later date they may copy our system.
In the content of a pint of beer the value of the hops, in round figures, is about ¼d. The right hon. Member for Battersea. North (Mr. Jay) asked whether, if there was any great fluctuation in the price of hops, the price of beer would go up or down. It cannot make very much odds in a farthing either way. By innuendo, the right hon. Member also asked whether there were any alternative uses for hops. There is none except as manure. That virtually means giving away hops. They are at such a low price for manure as to be almost worthless.
I am very glad to welcome this Order because I feel that it puts the matter on to a more permanent and satisfactory basis. In particular, having welcomed the stability which it will give, I welcome paragraph 2 (2), which shows the flexibility of the Order. We are not legislating for all time, but it can be altered conveniently as need arises. I have one slight doubt in my mind. With improving conditions of storage, the hop crop can now be kept from year to year. Hops cannot be kept for much longer than a year, but they can be kept from
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one season to another. That is very helpful to growers and to the marketing organisation, whose great aim is stability, but, as we are discussing imports and the restriction thereof, could we do more to further our exports? Our imports come from a certain set pattern of countries which provide special hops for lager and that type of beer, but we have special exports to Australia, Malta and various Commonwealth countries. Might that not be expanded to give the hop and horticultural industry help in one of its few protective stays?
Our horticulturists are at present looking out on the world with very troubled minds. Those who are growing hops enjoy this great stability, but I wonder whether we could set up an export industry. Siam springs to my mind. It takes its hops from Germany at the moment. I wonder whether something could be done about exports. If it could our horticulturists would have even more than this excellent Order to protect them. I welcome the Order, but I hope that further support can be given to this very efficient industry.
11.0 p.m.
Mr. Tom Driberg: The hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. J. Wells), in an extremely well-informed speech, made one remark which I found rather disquieting. He referred to the Common Market, and to the apparently rather chaotic conditions of hop marketing in the Common Market countries, of which I was not aware, since, like most other hon. Members, I do not know in such detail all the things he knows about hopping.
Mr. J. Wells: The term "hopping" is a technical word meaning, "picking hops".
Mr. Driberg: I realise that, and it is a very fine activity, in which thousands of Cockneys indulge every year, in Kent. It is hard work, but a very enjoyable atmosphere is created in the hop gardens, as I know well. Perhaps I should not have used the word in relation to an hon. Member and, if so, I am sorry I did.
I wanted to ask the Minister, quite seriously, what effect the adherence of this country to the Common Market would have on our stable hop industry and on this Order. Would the Order be

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superseded by the Treaty of Rome, if that is not putting it too simply? I am sure the hon. Member can enlighten us on that point.
Secondly, some references, which were a little obscure to me, were made to lager beer, both in the Minister's speech and in that of the hon. Member for Maidstone. I was very glad to hear the Minister say that a good many years ago the brewers had agreed that lager beer could not be satisfactorily manufactured in this country. Although they no longer take that view, I still believe it to be the case. I wondered whether the Minister could enlighten us further about that. Does he agree with the brewers, who now think—wrongly, in my opinion—that British lager beer is drinkable?
Mr. Speaker: Order. The ingenuity, if not the taste, of the hon. Member goes a little too far from matters arising from the Order.
Mr. Driberg: With the greatest respect, Mr. Speaker, I hope that you are not querying my taste in beer.
I conclude by asking the Minister one question. Can he assure the House that there has been full consultation about this Order with the brewing industry, with which, as is well known, his party has such close, friendly and lucrative associations?
11.4 p.m.
Mr. John Mackie: I recently had the great pleasure of seeing a hop processing establishment in Bermondsey. I take an interest in hops, as I have several friends who are hop growers. Recently, I thought of making an offer for a farm which had a hop quota. The price that I would have had to pay for that quota rather indicated to me that the Hops Marketing Board was a rather closed shop and made the hop quota a very valuable asset to the farmer.
Earlier, we were discussing butter and anti-dumping measures. There is one point which I should like to take up with the Minister. He said that over a period of years, the Hops Marketing Board had controlled the price of hops at between £27 and £35 per ton.
Sir K. Joseph: Per hundredweight.
Mr. Mackie: I beg pardon.
Then, the Minister said that in countries from which hops were imported, the price varied from £8 to £110 per cwt. I should like to be assured that, because we have a hops marketing scheme, there will be no harmful effect against the producer.
A lot of people can drink 16 pints of beer on a Saturday night, and we have been told that the cost of the hops in a pint of beer is id. This has a considerable bearing on what people spend on Saturday nights during the course of a year. I should like to think that no control would be exercised that would affect the possibility of buying hops from abroad as cheaply as possible. I should like the Minister's assurance that there will be no question of increasing the price of hops to suit the wishes of the Marketing Board, which would have an adverse effect against those who produce our best lagers.
11.7 p.m.
Sir K. Joseph: The right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) asked me about the implications of the effect of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act. As he and the House know, there is a requirement under that Act that agreements of various sorts should be registered. The voluntary agreement controlling the import of hops was subject to registration. One of the effects of the Act has been to operate by way of precedent. All sorts of industries have observed the judgments of the Court and have drawn conclusions from those judgments about the judgment that would be likely—but not certain—from the Court if their own agreement eventually came before the Court. Here we have an example.
The agreement was registered, as it was bound to be. Advice was taken, and in the light of the decisions of the Court the parties to the agreement thought it probable that if it came before the Court, it would be found to be a restrictive trade practice. In anticipation of this, the parties and the Government have sought to avoid an interregnum during which the existing voluntary protection for the hop growers would have lapsed if the agreement had

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been found to contravene the Restrictive Trade Practices Act before Parliament could step in and restore some sort of protection to the industry. That is why I said that in the light of the Act, the Order was being brought forward now.
Without any regulation of imports, prices might certainly be lower in some years and much higher in other years. As was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Mr. J. Wells), whose speech and comments as an expert I heartily welcomed, the hops ingredient in a pint of beer accounts for about d, while the Government's, or the taxpayers', ingredient accounts for about 8d.
Mr. Mackie: Shame.
Sir K. Joseph: That shows the relative importance of the one against the other.
The hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Driberg), who, as I hope to show, has struck unlucky several times this evening, asked whether my right hon. Friend had consulted the brewers before introducing the Order. The brewers might, however, like to have freedom to import hops from all over the world at any time. That would enable them in certain years to buy their hops cheaper than they can get them from the home market. The wiser brewers would realise the value to them of a stable hop production at home, but I imagine that some brewers would rather not have the Order and would prefer freedom to roam abroad to buy hops where they were cheapest.
I hope the House will bear in mind that we are dealing here with another party as well as the producer and the consumer. We are dealing with the worker as well. I asked experts how many workers were engaged in what is now a stable hops industry. I was told that it was impossible to say and that in these days it was part of wider farm activity. But I was told that there were more than 10,000, perhaps up to 13,000, workers who are in some way or other connected with hop production. Thus, their livelihood, in part at least, is protected by this voluntary agreement at the moment and will continue to be so if the House approves this Order.
I cannot possibly answer the inquiries of the hon. Member for Barking about
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the Common Market. There are so many uncertainties about it, particularly in agriculture, that it is impossible to predict. I have never committed myself to the judgment that British brewers cannot brew good lagers. What I did say was that they cannot use British hops to do so. Most of the imported quota will be for lager and special quality beer.
Mr. Driberg: Is it not a question of the water, too?
Sir K. Joseph: This Order is about hops, not water.
My hon. Fried the Member for Maidstone made a valuable point about the importance of increasing exports that was music to my ears. But we do export hops at the moment. Our largest export is to the Republic of Ireland—a point which is of particular interest tonight. We should like to see more exports, and I hope that exports to the Continent and, indeed, to other parts of the world will grow. I hope that, with this explanation, the House will approve the Order.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Hops (Import Regulation) Order, 1961 (S.I., 1961, No. 2251), dated 22nd November 1961, a copy of which was laid before this House on 28th November, be approved.

SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Pembroke, [copy laid before the House, 12th December], approved.—[Mr. Renton.]
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Kington, [copy laid before the House, 12th December], approved.— [Mr. Renton.]
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Saxmundham, [copy laid before the House, 12th December], approved.—[Mr. Renton.]
Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending

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Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Wade-bridge, [copy laid before the House, 12th December], approved.— [Mr. Renton.]

LONG STREET, THIRSK (PEDESTRIAN CROSSING)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. E. Wakefield.]
11.13 p.m.
Mr. R. H. Turton: On 22nd November, I asked the Minister of Transport a Question about the danger to pedestrians, especially elderly people, on that portion of the A.19 which goes through Long Street, Thirsk. I asked him whether he would either provide a pedestrian crossing on this stretch of trunk road for the elderly to use, or else take some other action to mitigate that danger. He replied that he would not supply a pedestrian crossing.
Then I pointed out to him that at a recent inquest the coroner's jury had asked for this pedestrian crossing. I said that if he could not provide one, then he could surely do something to help prevent accidents on this stretch of road. As my right hon. Friend, in his reply, said:
"I will take as much action as I can to mitigate danger, but I do not think that the action my right hon. Friend proposes is the right one." [OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd November, 1961; Vol. 649, c. 1330.]
I felt that his reply was so unsatisfactory that I gave notice that I would raise the matter on the Adjournment.
There is an old history to this problem. I first raised the matter nine years ago, on 17th March, 1952, so my constituents have been disappointed and outraged by the decisions of successive Ministers of Transport to do nothing about this stretch of road. I will describe its geography. It is a stretch of trunk road which carries traffic on the A.19 from Tees-side to York, the A.61, which takes traffic from Tees-side to the West Riding, and A.170, which takes traffic from Scarborough to the West Riding. Thus, in this area of my constituency three busy roads converge. I agree that the Scarborough road is busy only during
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the summer season, but the other two roads are especially busy.
A housing estate, the size of which is shortly to be increased, is divided from the centre of the town. This is a housing estate on which the local authority which is pressing for this change has allocated an area for old people's bungalows. When I first raised the matter nine years ago, there were about 100 houses divided from the town by this trunk artery, but that number has now grown to 240 and, under the local authority's housing plan, which, it is hoped, will be completed in two years, there will be a large number of additional houses on this estate. There is also an infants' school on the north side of the road. The school has a school crossing patrol to help the children going to and from school at breaks, but that school is an additional danger factor in the area.
When I first raised this matter, I said that my constituents, Thirsk Rural District Council and Thirsk Parish Council, felt that if the Minister did not take some action—in their view, a pedestrian crossing—there would be a number of accidents. There is a roundabout at the point of intersection—White Mare Corner—but my constituents obviously do not want the pedestrian crossing at the roundabout. It is suggested that the crossing should be 50 or 100 yards from it. That would be a convenient place.
There were a number of accidents. Two pedestrians were knocked down on this road in 1957 and, later that year, a pedestrian aged 74 was knocked down by a lorry while crossing this road. The next year or the year after a child was run down while crossing this road and in January this year an old lady of 85 was knocked down while trying to cross the road and was fatally injured. By reason of that fatality, the coroner's jury returned a verdict of "Accidental death", with the recommendation that a pedestrian crossing should be sited near the place where the accident had occurred.
The Minister has great responsibility for seeing that this stretch of trunk road, which is within his jurisdiction, has proper safety provision for people to cross, especially when there are old people's dwellings within the vicinity. It

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may be all right for a young man like the Parliamentary Secretary to cross a busy stretch of road, but it is a very different matter for old people like the pedestrians of 74 and 85 who have been knocked down in recent years.
This is, of course, a restricted part of the trunk road, but as, Mr. Speaker, you well know, in these areas on trunk roads which are through routes it is very frequently found that the 30 miles an hour speed limit is not observed. I asked the clerk to the justices only recently how many prosecutions there had been of drivers on this stretch of road, and he said there had been a considerable number of prosecutions for exceeding the speed limit on this stretch of the A.19. It means that notwithstanding the 30 miles an hour limit old people frequently have to encounter a car going faster than 30 miles an hour on that part of the road.
I cannot understand why the Minister is so adamant about the pedestrian crossing. Thirsk has no pedestrian crossing at all on any part of any of its roads. It may be that the pedestrian crossing is not a good safety provision. If so, why is it that in the neighbouring town of Northallerton there are a number of pedestrian crossings and that in the neighbouring town of Ripon there are a number of pedestrian crossings? If the Parliamentary Secretary will look at Henley, which has a similar position, he will find the old people of Henley are looked after by pedestrian crossings, as I was told when passing through, only last Sunday. I have not been to Wallasey, but in Wallasey one will find probably the same provision. I am only saying that my constituents should have similar protection to what is afforded in these other towns.
If, in present traffic conditions, the zebra crossings, what at one time was called the Belisha crossings, after a former Minister of Transport who did not invent the idea but had the Order made during his period of office—are not the answers, then it is the duty of the Minister to try right ones.
There is one peculiarity of Thirsk of which the Minister should be aware. Thirsk is the main stop for heavy lorries travelling north and south. That means that at night, when old people go out, a number of heavy lorries are travelling
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along this stretch of road, and that adds to the danger. Let me make it quite plain that I am not saying tonight that the only remedy is a pedestrian crossing. I am saying to the Minister that, if he will not provide a pedestrian crossing there is the duty on him to find an alternative means of seeing that these old people are not knocked down.
I would suggest that it may well be that a controlled crossing, as at a school, which I mentioned, may be the right thing, that a police-controlled crossing, at times when traffic is highest, is needed to enable the old people to cross. I can tell him that I have had complaints from my constituents that at some periods of the day for a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes one has to wait to cross. I agree that is exceptional. I feel that, in general, in the Minister and in the Parliamentary Secretary we have Ministers who are extremely good at looking after the needs of, and providing for, motorists. I am not so satisfied they are looking after the safety of pedestrians.
11.24 p.m.
Mr. John Mackie: I shall delay the House only a minute. I know the stretch of road to which the the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) has drawn attention. I never understood the one-way system that there is in Thirsk.
I would emphasise that the normal pedestrian crossing is of no use for old people. I think that the right hon. Gentleman, if he wants to press their case, should ask for controlled crossings, the press-the-button type. One presses the button and the traffic light turns to red. An old person will otherwise put a foot on the road and, even though a vehicle is moving at a reasonable speed, will hesitate, and that causes accidents. Old people need to be assured that it is safe to cross, and the button controlled system is best for them. As I say, I know this road very well, and I know there traffic moves fast along it.
11.25 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. John Hay): As my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) has already told the House, the Adjournment

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debate tonight arises out of a Question that he put to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport a few weeks ago, in answer to which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport was obliged to tell my right hon. Friend that he was unwilling to provide a pedestrian crossing at this place.
It might help if I were to say a little about the physical background. My right hon. Friend has already said something about that, but perhaps I could put the picture as we see it in the Ministry. As my right hon. Friend has said, this road, known as Long Street, Thirsk, is part of the York—Stockton trunk road, and at the southern end of it there is this roundabout called the White Mare roundabout. To the east of Long Street there is a council estate to which my right hon. Friend referred, and I was interested to hear what he said about provision being made there for old people's housing. The carriage way width of this road is a somewhat important factor in this case. It is between 25 and 30 feet wide. It varies somewhat along its length, but it is somewhere between those measurements.
When my right hon. Friend asked whether there were any other measures which could be taken, apart from the provision of a pedestrian crossing, which might assist people crossing the road here, one of the very first things that we investigated was whether it would be possible to erect traffic islands without providing a full pedestrian crossing with zebra stripes, flashing lights, and so on.
But I am sorry to say that we found that the road itself, the carriageway, is too narrow for the provision of islands. We have to be careful about where we provide islands, because if the road is not wide enough the provision of an island means that traffic may be forced on to the pavement in certain traffic conditions. I am, therefore, sorry to say that it has not been possible to use this way in which we might otherwise have dealt with the problem.
The basic criterion which my right hon. Friend the Minister adopts when considering requests for the provision of a pedestrian crossing is the volume of
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the traffic—both vehicle and pedestrian traffic. This road has what we estimate to be about 400 vehicles per hour passing along it. This, I must tell the House, is an estimated figure. It is grossed up from a traffic count that was taken in 1954, but it is quite a normal practice of the Ministry to do this because we know that traffic is increasing at the rate of about 4 per cent. per annum compound.
As to pedestrian traffic, our divisional road engineer, who knows this area well, estimates that there are only about 50 adult pedestrians crossing the road per hour. This is at the part of the road which lies to the north of the roundabout. These pedestrians cross at widely different places. There is no single fixed place, as it were, where the great majority of people normally cross. They cross at different points up and down the length of this road.
Mr. Turton: May I get this point clear, because it is very important. There is only one entrance from the housing estate to the road which leads to White Mare Corner, and people can only cross the road in the region of White Mare Corner.
Mr. Hay: Perhaps my right hon. Friend has not followed what I was saying. I said that the estimate by the divisional road engineer of the number of adult pedestrians who cross the whole length of Long Street from the White Mare roundabout to the extremity at the north is about 50 per hour, and these cross at different places. It may well be true that the majority cross at a certain point near White Mare Corner. I am not arguing about that. I am simply saying that 50 per hour cross at different places. Those are the basic data on which we have to work: a carriageway 25 to 30 ft. wide, carrying about 400 vehicles per hour, and also about 50 adult pedestrians per hour.
My right hon. Friend referred to the children crossing at the school. I think that the problem there is not nearly so severe as it might seem, because I understand that the local authority provides a school crossing patrol, and, as my right hon. Friend and other hon. Members know, that is by far the best road safety method that can be adopted for children.

793
My right hon. Friend asked why the Minister was so adamant in this case in refusing a pedestrian crossing. I must tell him, without any equivocation, that, measured against the standards that we have to adopt in the Ministry, there is no doubt at all in the minds of my right hon. Friend the Minister, myself and the Department that the traffic volumes that I have quoted fall very far short of those that we normally expect when we accede to a request for a pedestrian crossing.
I know that hon. Members are frequently puzzled to know why it is that we are, as it were, so parsimonious in allowing new pedestrian crossings to be placed, but here we have to take account of the history of the matter. Prior to 1950, pedestrian crossings could be installed much more easily. As the House may recollect, they proliferated all over the country, with the inevitable consequence that the standard of observance of the rules by drivers declined tremendously, and the outcome was that a pedestrian crossing was in no way a refuge or a safeguard for the pedestrian.
In 1950, a rather brutal exercise in reduction of pedestrian crossings throughout the country was carried out, which resulted in the number being reduced by about two-thirds, and since that time, and because of the experience prior to 1950, we have been extremely careful to make sure that where a pedestrian crossing is placed it will be continuously used by pedestrians and is on a street where there is a high volume of vehicle traffic. That is because we are most concerned to ensure that the standard of observance of the rules of pedestrian crossings by drivers of all kinds is maintained.
My right hon. Friend said that there is a great responsibility on the Minister in this matter. I hope that I have now explained to him exactly why it is that we are so awkward and cussed about pedestrian crossings. A pedestrian crossing is not an automatic safeguard for the pedestrian. It is often thought to be so, but it is not, in fact. This is particularly the case where children are concerned, because they are usually somewhat too impetuous or too unthinking. They run on to a pedestrian crossing believing that it is an automatic right of way for them, and many of them—alas, far too many—are killed or injured during the course of a year.
794
Neither is it an automatic safeguard for elderly people. Many of these are perhaps a little to hesitant as their natural faculties deteriorate with the passage of time, and where they are infirm, often they try to cross when they ought, in fact, to have assistance to cross. So, for both these categories—the young and the very old—it is unwise to rely on pedestrian crossings.
What is most important for the elderly is that they should as far as possible help themselves. This means two things, in particular. First, they should take extra care when crossing the road, even if it means that they have to wait on the kerb rather longer than they did when they were younger. Secondly, they should not be unwilling to ask assistance from passers-by who are younger whenever they feel that they cannot cross the road in safety.
I should like to send my right hon. Friend a copy—if he will accept it—of a report which has recently been published by the Christian Economic and Social Research Foundation, entitled, "Road Risks of the Elderly". This is a very valuable document which is full of very good advice for elderly people in relation to roads and it makes with considerable force the points that I have made.
I said just now that we have certain criteria for the provision of pedestrian crossings. First, there must be a regular and continuous use of the pedestrian crossing at the place at which it is provided. Secondly, there must be a high volume of vehicle traffic at that point. Really, therefore, the test of whether we provide a pedestrian crossing comes to the simple issue of need; need in the place at which it is requested.
Mr. Turton: When my hon. Friend talks about numbers, is he taking into account the fact that the size of the housing estate is being nearly doubled this year or next year?
Mr. Hay: I gave the figure of 50 adult pedestrians per hour, which takes account of the fact that the housing estate has recently been built and is now occupied.
Mr. Turton: I am not talking about a housing estate being built, but about its size being doubled.
Mr. Hay: I understand that. I will come back to that point. I was dealing in a more general sense with pedestrian crossings vis-à-vis the elderly, because that is the title of my right hon. Friend's Adjournment debate, and this is a good opportunity for me to say something on that issue.
Need is the test, and really to make comparisons between one town and another, and one place and another, is quite useless in the circumstances. My right hon. Friend mentioned Northallerton and Rippon in the vicinity which have pedestrian crossings, whereas Thirsk has not. He said that Henley, which I have the honour to represent in the House, had one, but the truth is that it has not. There is only one in the whole of my constituency, and there are some doubts about whether that ought to be there, although I do not share that view.
My right hon. Friend also mentioned that Wallasey, the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport, had some. In the entire area of the North-East which is the responsibility of our divisional road engineer there are no less than 19 urban districts and three boroughs with populations ranging from 2,500 to 35,000, which have no crossings at all. As I have said, need must be, and is, the test.
I turn now to the accident record. My right hon. Friend said that there had been two accidents in 1957. I did not have knowledge of those, but I knew of the three accidents which occurred between February, 1958, and December, 1961. Two of these accidents were slight ones. They were accidents to children who, without warning, ran into the road from behind parked vehicles. The third was the regrettable fatal accident where an elderly lady of 85 was knocked down by a driver who was momentarily blinded, according to the report of the inquest, by sunlight which came from behind a building just as she passed from its shadow. It is regrettable, but it is one of the things which happen on our roads. This accident to the elderly lady was not at or near the roundabout, but some distance away.
We have taken note of the recommendations of the coroner's jury in that case, but, with respect to them, I think that perhaps they did not have before
796
them the sort of information about traffic volumes and the desirability of maintaining some kind of standard which I have tried to give the House tonight.
My right hon. Friend asked whether the police could do better to enforce the 30 mile per hour speed limit and the traffic rules generally in this place. I think that he knows from his long experience that matters relating to the police are not for my right hon. Friend, nor, in the provinces, for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary directly. I suggest that if he is dissatisfied with the standard of police enforcement in Thirsk he should get in touch with the Chairman of his Standing Joint Committee.
The hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Mackie), in his brief intervention, asked whether a controlled crossing could be provided with a push-button and lights. The House will remember that we are conducting an experiment fairly soon with a new type of pedestrian crossing which is operated by pedestrians, although I must say that the 45 sites where this experimental crossing will be provided throughout the country have already been allocated. I can tell my right hon. Friend that if this experiment proves a success we will certainly reconsider the case of Thirsk if and when we produce this on a general scale. It might be that this is the sort of case, particularly in the light of the developments suggested over the next two years, where such a type of crossing might be very useful. But I must tell my right hon. Friend that as things stand at present, the traffic volume and the number of pedestrians are not sufficient, in the view of the Minister of Transport, to justify a pedestrian crossing.
In any case, pedestrian crossings are not a complete road safety answer, especially for the elderly people with whom my right hon. Friend is most concerned tonight. However, I can end on a more optimistic note, and there are two points I would like to make. First, we are discussing, with the county council the possibility of improving the kerbs in Long Street. This may help not only the pedestrians, but the motor traffic, too. Secondly, I will certainly promise my right hon. Friend to keep this whole situation under review.

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If, over the next two years, the development of the housing estate takes place, and more and more old people come to live there, of course we can reconsider the whole matter in the light of the volume of pedestrian traffic which that development generates. But I warn my right hon. Friend that the pedestrian and vehicle traffic will have to increase substantially before they are likely to come anywhere near the conditions which we deem appropriate for the installation of pedestrian crossings. Nevertheless, I hope that my remarks will be of some assistance to my right hon. Friend and I can assure him that the matter will be kept under review.
Mr. Mackie: Can the hon. Gentleman say where I can see one of these experimental crossings?
Mr. Hay: They are not yet actually installed, but I am hoping that the first two, which will not be very far from this House, will be installed during the next two to three months. I hope that circumstances permit completion of these two within that time. When the time comes I will try to remember the interest taken in this subject by the hon. Gentleman and arrange for him to see them.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at eighteen minutes to Twelve o'clock.

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  Civil Defence (Evacuation Policy)
  Civil Defence (Evacuation Policy)
  Small Dwellings Acquisition Act
  Small Dwellings Acquisition Act
  Rural Areas, Wales (Depopulation)
  Rural Areas, Wales (Depopulation)
HOUSING
  Aluminium Bungalows (Corrosion)
  Aluminium Bungalows (Corrosion)
  UNITED NATIONS (UNITED KINGDOM CONTRIBUTION)
  UNITED NATIONS (UNITED KINGDOM CONTRIBUTION)
  GERMANY (EASTERN TERRITORIES)
  GERMANY (EASTERN TERRITORIES)
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY AND EUROPEAN FREE TRADE AREA
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY AND EUROPEAN FREE TRADE AREA
  THE CONGO
  THE CONGO
  THE CONGO (KATANGA)
  THE CONGO (KATANGA)
TRINIDAD
  Community Education Centre, St. Ann's
  Community Education Centre, St. Ann's
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Spectacle Frames
  Spectacle Frames
MINISTRY OF POWER
  Steel Industry
  Steel Industry
SCOTLAND
  Secondary Education (Five-year Courses)
  Secondary Education (Five-year Courses)
SCIENCE
  Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering Industries (Report)
  Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering Industries (Report)
  Cancer
  Cancer
SHIPPING
  Shipbuilding Prospects (Report of Advisory Committee)
  Shipbuilding Prospects (Report of Advisory Committee)
  Orders
  Orders
TECHNICAL CO-OPERATION
  Payments to Non-Governmental Bodies
  Payments to Non-Governmental Bodies

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Sheffield

MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN
3.6 p.m.
THE EARL OF SCARBROUGH: My Lords, I have the honour to present to your Lordships a Message from Her Majesty the Queen, signed by her own hand. It is as follows:
"I thank you for your loyal and affectionate greetings on my return from my visit to West Africa. The enthusiastic welcome which my husband and I received from the Commonwealth member countries of Ghana and Sierra Leone, and from the Gambia and from Liberia and Senegal, touched us deeply. We were both moved and delighted to see for ourselves something of the great and diverse developments which are taking place in these countries. We were also happy to note the degree to which my people in the United Kingdom are contributing to these developments."

PRICES OF FAT CATTLE AND BEEF
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what have been the percentage changes in the monthly average prices of fat cattle since January 1, 1961, and the percentage changes over the same period in the retail price of beef; and further, what were the total sums paid to farmers as deficiency payments on fat cattle during that period, and during the corresponding period of 1960.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL WALDEGRAVE): My Lords, with
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permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the information about monthly average prices for cattle. Taking January, 1961, as 100, they show a steady decline from about 105 for March to about 72 for July, and a gradual recovery thereafter to about 89 for November. Prices are, of course, normally lower in the summer and autumn months, and higher in the winter and early spring. In answer to the second part of the question, I cannot give exactly comparable figures for retail beef prices, because the published index of retail prices does not contain an item for beef alone. The index gives a figure for meat including bacon, and during the period January to October the retail price fell by 7 per cent.
In answer to the third part of the question, I would say that in the period January to November the total sums paid under the guarantee on cattle were £43·74 million in 1961, and £8·87 million in 1960. The higher expenditure this year reflects not only lower market prices, but also larger numbers of home-produced cattle and the higher rate of guarantee awarded at the last Review.
Following are tile figures referred to in the foregoing Answer:

U.K. monthly average prices for fat cattle certified for guarantee

Comparison based on January 1961=100

January

100

February

98·9

March

104·6

April

102·7

May

94·9

June

81·4

July

72·4

August

75·4

September

81·7

October

83·8

November

88·7

LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his comprehensive, or fairly comprehensive, Answer to my Question, but I should like to ask him this supplementary question. In view of the fact that there has been this staggering increase in the deficiency payment of something over five times the amount in the previous year, coupled with the fact that there has been a very considerable decline in the price paid in markets to the farmer, is he satisfied with the fact that the decline in price for meat as a whole has been so very small and, in particular, as I think most people who actually have to pay for beef know, that

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beef prices have, if anything, gone up and have not fallen at all? In view of that, will he not agree that the present method of deficiency payment, which is costing the taxpayer so much, is failing completely in its first purpose of giving confidence to the farmer (because he realises that these deficiency payments cannot keep on indefinitely), and in its second and possibly more important purpose of reducing the price to the consumer? And, that being so, will he not give an undertaking that he and his colleagues will seriously reconsider the whole system of deficiency payments in meat marketing?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, that was a somewhat long supplementary question. It is not possible to generalise about retail prices, which vary according to the quantity and quality of different cuts of meat in different parts of the country and at different times. They also depend to a certain extent on the pricing policy of individual butchers. But there have been, as I said before, substantial falls throughout the country in the retail prices. The noble Lord went on to ask whether I would agree that the deficiency payment system had failed. I would agree with no such thing. I think that it would be quite unjustifiable, because this year there was a high deficiency payment, to throw the whole scheme out, when it is doing what it is designed to do: to give a guarantee to the farmers to supplement possible low market prices.
LORD STONHAM: Is the noble Earl aware, my Lords, that the Answer he has given shows that from March to July the price of fat cattle dropped by over one-third, the retail price of meat dropped not at all and the additional cost to the taxpayer was £35 million, for which the consumers got no benefit at all? In those circumstances, and having regard to the fact that I myself have frequently pointed to a similar situation with regard to other guaranteed commodities, how can the noble Earl possibly stand at the Box and say to my noble friend that the present system of support prices is justified and he does not propose to discuss with his right honourable friend abandoning the system? Does it not mean that the
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Government are squandering the taxpayers' money without benefit to the farmer, without benefit to the consumer—merely to inflate the profits of the middle men?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: No, my Lords, those are not the facts. The noble Lord said that the consumer had not benefited at all. The retail price index shows that the meat retail price has fallen in the period, January to October, by 7 per cent. That is not "nothing at all". I have some figures from an individual chain of shops, which show that retail prices have fallen very considerably, especially for the cheaper cuts. I have nothing further to add.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, could the noble Earl undertake that his Ministry would inquire into the retail prices of beef over the last twelve months and report to the House?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, the figures of the retail prices of a large number of items are known to the Government. The Ministry of Labour collect information about prices for all goods and services, including beef. But what I explained to your Lordships is that individual items collected for the purpose of compiling the retail index are not disclosed.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, would my noble friend not agree that it is about time that we disclosed them individually, if the subsidy is given on an individual item of food? Quite clearly, individual figures must exist, otherwise the Ministry of Labour would not be able to produce a comprehensive index for meat. They must know the index for beef separately, and I would suggest that they should be willing to disclose it.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, the question of the disclosure and the publication of individual items of the index of retail prices does not fall to me to answer. I should need notice of that question, and then it would not be for me to answer it. That is all that I can say in reply to that question.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I take it that in the ordinary course the Government will be reconsidering the whole position

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before the Review of prices next February; and would not the Government take into consideration that when beef on the hoof falls to 105s. to 102s. per cwt. there is very little difference in the retail price? If we are to have a standard price to farmers, then we ought to have a reasonable standard price to the consumers, and does that not mean proper control of prices to consumers, as they are controlled to farmers?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, of course these matters are all taken into consideration. I think that we should not view this matter with too much pessimism. The noble Viscount is correct in saying that prices fell in July to about 100s. a cwt., but I am glad to say that they are recovering now. As a matter of fact, the latest figures I have are something in the nature of 134s. a cwt., which is very little different from what they were at this time last year. Of course, these facts will be taken into consideration in connection with the next Annual Review of Prices.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, if it is right for the Government to reconsider the position and the whole policy before the next Price Review, would it not also perhaps be reasonable for the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition to reconsider his hostility to the Common Market?
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I will be glad to pass that on to the Farmers' Union. They will enjoy it.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, if I may revert to beef prices once again, the noble Earl is doubtless well aware that the International Labour Review publishes from time to time retail prices of different cuts of meat and other foodstuffs in certain countries, including our own country. In order to allay any suspicion that there may be that there is an attempt to mask the issue with regard to beef, would he not provide us at some future date with figures culled from this source, if from no other, showing in fact how the seasonal changes have taken place in regard to items of meat—for example, sirloin of beef without bone, which is one of the figures actually published in the Review.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, if the noble Lord will put down a specific Question I will try to give a specific Answer. But I am sure he would not expect me to carry these sort of figures in my head. The prices of beef are substantially lower in this country than in most other European countries.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, would the noble Earl say whether his Department investigated the evidence which was produced by the B.B.C. and the Observer of a beast being sold in the market for £58 and in a butcher's shop for £123, and was that found to be accurate? And what are the noble Earl's comments on that?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, without having notice of that question, I cannot say whether that particular story was investigated or whether we were asked to investigate it, but I will find out.

"PAY-AS-YOU-VIEW" TELEVISION
3.20 p.m.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of the prospective development of "pay as you view "television and the possible availability of a separate channel for this purpose, to indicate how far the Post Office is technically equipped to provide such a service, and whether any investigations have been conducted to ascertain the extent to which "pay as you view" television facilities could be linked with the telephone service.]
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, the noble Lord has based his questions on the prospective development of "pay as you view". But the number and type of television programmes for the future awaits consideration in the light of the Report of the Pilkington Committee. This is expected in the spring. It would be premature to conduct specific investigations as to methods of provision at this time.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply, but, while

423
allowing for the fact of the sitting of the Pilkington Committee, and their possible recommendations, I should like to ask him, whether the Post Office is at this moment technically fitted to undertake such a service with regard to programmes. My question is now a direct one: and it is, quite simply, whether or not the Post Office is fitted to undertake such a service.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, if the noble Lord is referring to technical skill, then the answer is, Yes; but if he is asking whether it can be undertaken without either cutting into capital and manpower resources, the answer is, No.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I do not think the noble Lord has quite answered my noble friend's question. If I might put it again, it was: Is the Post Office in possession of equipment; is it in possession of the necessary technical knowledge of this particular type of project to be able, without perhaps too great cost, to put on a "pay as you view" programme, or facilities for it? Furthermore, has the Post Office made the information on this subject available to the Pilkington Committee?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, it may be that I was mistaken, or it may be that the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, was mistaken, but I do not think his noble friend in fact referred to the possession of technical equipment. Technical equipment the Post Office does not at the moment possess; technical know-how it does possess. I understand that the technical problems concerned in such a development would not be very great, but they would be very costly.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, if the noble Lord will kindly read the Question he will see that he was specifically asked to indicate
"… how far the Post Office is technically equipped to provide such a service …"
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, with all respect to noble Lords opposite and to the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition, I think I have answered the Question; in fact, I think I have answered it twice. The equipment necessary to introduce such a service is
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not available; the know-how for developing such a service is available.
LORD MORRISON of LAMBETH: My Lords, the noble Lord has told us—for which we are much obliged—that the Post Office possesses the know-how, such as technical knowledge. I understand that the Government do not wish to make up their mind before they receive the Pilkington Report; but, policy considerations aside, are we to take it that it would be practicable for the Post Office to do this?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, my impression is that I have also answered that question. It would be technically possible; it would be also very expensive, and it might mean either adding to the Vote of the Post Office or cutting into the available manpower and capital resources.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, mention has been made of the expense of operating such a service. Am I right in thinking that the Post Office would have special facilities with regard to the collection of such personal fees that were paid which would not be available to the private operator in this particular field?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I do not want ever to be evasive, but that seems to me to be a very different question. If the question of installing such a service must be left to the Pilkington Committee's recommendations, then surely the methods of collecting fees must also be left to them.

BOMBS FOR UNITED NATIONS IN KATANGA
3.25 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what reply, if any, they have received from the Secretary-General of the United Nations to the representations and the request for clarification made by them with reference to the supply of bombs to the United Nations for use in Katanga; and whether they have any statement to make on the present position.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF DUNDEE:) My Lords, as your Lordships are aware, a request was made to us by the United Nations for 24 1,000-lb. bombs for use by Canberra aircraft. We were reluctant to accede to this request, since it did not seem to us that bombs of this type would be appropriate for defensive action, but an appeal was made to us on the ground that United Nations troops were in danger from attack by "pirate" aircraft and that heavy bombs were needed to destroy these aircraft on the ground. We therefore agreed on December 7 to supply these bombs, subject to the assurance given in the Secretary-General's letter of December 8, which I quoted to your Lordships the day before yesterday and which stated
"I should like to confirm the assurance previously given you by the United Nations Secretariat that these bombs will only be used in preventive action undertaken in self defence confined to aircraft used for military purposes in the Congo".
We were a little surprised to find, after our agreement to supply the bombs for this defensive action, that we were not asked to deliver them for another eight days, and were greatly concerned both by the nature of the fighting in Katanga, and by the alleged statements of United Nations personnel in the Congo, some of which have since been corrected, which appeared to be inconsistent with the Secretary-General's assurances. We therefore thought it right to express our concern to the Secretary-General and to inquire once more as to the purpose of the United Nations action in Katanga; and I am glad to say that he decided to withdraw his request for the bombs in a letter to our Representative at the United Nations. I am sure that Your Lordships will agree that the Secretary-General's action was both courteous and considerate. It was agreed that this letter should be published simultaneously in London and New York at 4 p.m. yesterday by our time, which is of course 11 a.m. by New York time, and I was therefore unable to refer to it when answering the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, at 2.45 p.m. yesterday, but I arranged for copies of the letter to be handed to the noble Lord, and also to the noble Lord, Lord Rea, at 4 o'clock.
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government find it difficult to understand the recent course of military events in the light of
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the Acting Secretary-General's assurance that the objectives of the United Nations forces are to restore freedom of their communications and to defend themselves. Attacks have been reported against industrial installations and on other civilian targets which do not in the Government's view appear to fall within the Secretary-General's definition. In these circumstances the Government feel that it is essential that a cease-fire should be brought about as soon as possible and that it is the duty of the United Nations to bring about at the earliest possible moment an end to hostilities and a return to the path of conciliation and negotiations.
They have therefore called on the Acting Secretary-General to secure an immediate cease-fire in the Katanga, in the hope that this will create conditions in which, in a united Congo, a peaceful and just basis for co-operation may be negotiated. In reply to these representations, the Secretary-General has decided to lay our request before the United Nations Advisory Committee on the Congo, which is expected to meet to-morrow afternoon. In taking this action the Government have noted the Acting Secretary-General's own references to reconciliation and have assured him of their readiness to assist in bringing about a cease-fire and a very early meeting between the central Government and Mr. Tshombe.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for the very full reply, may I ask him whether he would not agree that this shows extraordinary weakness on the part of Her Majesty's Government, in having agreed to supply these bombs on December 7 and then, within a few hours, arguing with the United Nations Secretariat as to whether or not the bombs should be delivered. Was not the time for satisfying themselves as to the conditions under which they should be used, before they agreed to supply them, and not afterwards? Secondly, may I ask the noble Earl whether, in fact, these same bombs are not going to be provided by Canada and India? Further, could the noble Earl give us the terms of this courteous and considerate communication from the United Nations? I was under the impression that I had seen it. If that is the communication, it was very abrupt indeed, and I thought

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that the United Nations, or the Secretariat, were somewhat displeased with ourselves—
THE EARL OF SWINTON: Good!
LORD SILKIN: —and were giving us up as a bad job. May I further ask the noble Earl whether he regards the question of the cease-fire simply as a matter for the United Nations? Having agreed that the United Nations went into Katanga for self-defence, is it for them to say that they will cease fire without any agreement on the part of Mr. Tshombe and the Katangan people? This is surely a matter which must be negotiated on both sides, and should not be a unilateral decision. Finally, could the noble Earl give us the exact date when he received the communication from the United Nations Secretariat?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord will be kind enough to help me in trying to recapitulate the six or seven supplementaries which he has asked. With regard to the last question, I think I have already given the date on which the reply was received. I had it yesterday morning, and it was agreed that it should be released simultaneously at 11 a.m. New York time, which is 4 o'clock our time. I arranged for a copy to be given to the noble Lord at that hour because the question which he asked me was an hour and a half too early to enable me to refer to it.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, had the answer already been received at 2.30 yesterday—was it received before that time?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I think I have said that already. It was received by us with an agreement, a stipulation, that it should be released simultaneously in London and in New York, and we had to observe that condition.
LORD SILKIN: Therefore, the noble Earl was aware of this answer at the time that he was making the Answer to the Question?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Did not the noble Lord understand that from my original Answer?
LORD SILKIN: No.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Then may I read it again? I am sorry, because I do not want there to be any misunderstanding about this kind of thing. I said:
"It was agreed that this letter should be published simultaneously in London and New York at 4 p.m. yesterday by our time, which is of course 11 a.m. by New York time, and I was therefore unable to refer to it when answering the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, at 2.45 p.m. yesterday, but I arranged for copies of the letter to be handed to the noble Lord, and also to the noble Lord, Lord Rea"
soon after 4 o'clock. Surely the noble Lord understood that? Also, I mentioned it privately to him earlier this afternoon.
Another of the noble Lord's supplementaries was whether these bombs were going to be supplied by someone else. He mentioned Canada and India. I do not know whether they are going to be supplied by anybody else, and I think it is yet to be seen whether they will be required at all.
Then the noble Lord suggested that the letter from the Secretary-General was not, as I stated, a courteous and considerate one, which I think it was, but an unfriendly one. I am very sorry that the noble Lord should interpret the letter in that light. As it was published in the newspapers this morning, I do not know that I have a copy with me, but I thought its terms were perfectly acceptable and proper and I repeat that in our view it was a courteous and considerate action on his part. I have answered three of the noble Lord's supplementary questions. If I have missed out any he thinks are more important, I should be glad if he would remind me of them.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I would remind the noble Earl of one of them about the cease-fire. I asked whether he would not agree that the question of a cease-fire was not one that the United Nations could decide upon unilaterally. They have gone into Katanga for self-defence, and they could not, on their own initiative cease fire.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I should have thought that was obvious, my Lords. What we want the United Nations Secretariat to agree to is to offer a cease-fire as soon as possible, because we are deeply apprehensive that if fighting goes on in the way in which it is

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going on, it may develop into heavy street fighting with large civilian casualties in Elisabethville, which might make it impossible to have a peaceful solution at all.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, subject to what my noble friends and other noble Lords may wish to ask the noble Earl, I would propose to delay any further questions until the debate we are to have on Monday, which I think would afford a very favourable occasion, with the Foreign Secretary present, for ventilating these matters much more fully. But I imagine that some of my noble friends might wish to pursue this.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, might I ask the Minister of State one question arising out of what the Deputy Leader of the Opposition has said? Has there been any clarification by the Secretary-General of the purpose for which these great reinforcements of United Nations troops have been flown in, and the attacks which they have made on installations 60 or 70 miles away from any place where they have been stationed in self-defence?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, we have, of course, made representations on these matters. There is nothing which the Secretary-General has said in reply which he has authorised us to publish. Perhaps I might say that we are satisfied that he personally is doing his best in very difficult circumstances. Perhaps I might add that there are two of his deputies at present, Dr. Bunche and Mr. Gardiner, who are in the Congo, and who will no doubt give him advice on the subjects which the noble Earl has just mentioned.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, may I ask one question? In the letter which the Government have sent to the Secretary-General—I think the noble Earl quoted from it this afternoon—there is a statement to the effect that attacks have been reported on non-military targets, installations and so forth. Would the noble Earl say what is meant by, "have been reported"—by whom?—and whether the targets which, in a normal way may be non-military, have been attacked by military personnel firing or taking any military action which called for defence by the United Nations' personnel?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I have a few reports here, mostly from our Consul in Elisabethville. There were attacks on the road and railway between Jadotville and Elisabethville where a bridge was destroyed and two railway engines damaged. Then there was an attack on Luili not far from Kolwezi upon a mining installation. In and around Elisabethville, the railway station and post office were attacked, and an office block in the main street of Elisabethville was shelled and machine gunned by aircraft. The Katanga radio transmitter was temporarily put out of action and a Coco-Cola plant and brewery were damaged. On another occasion some 20 mortar bombs landed on a school and hospital and adjacent buildings causing civilian casualties. The sort of reports we are receiving are:
"December 7, shells have gone through the roofs of three houses occupied by British subjects. I visited four houses hit by 75 millimetre shellfire."
"It is difficult to see the motive for the attack on the Luili plant which is a dozen miles from any military objective."
Again:
"Air attacks have put out of action a brewery."
"At 12.20 to-day, December 12, United Nations aircraft attacked an office block in the main street of Elisabethville. The Interfena building was shelled and machine-gunned."
There are many others, and some of them may be explainable, but others are difficult to reconcile with purely defensive action.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, of course that is the whole point. If these houses had been nests of Katangan troops firing, naturally they would draw defensive action. If mortar fire hits a building it may have been a bad shot. Have any of these incidents occurred from the Katanga side? After all, the Government are using this as a very important argument in their change of policy, and I think we ought to know whether these things are occurring on both sides in the course of action, or whether the suggestion is that the United Nations are deliberately hitting or firing at and bombing civilian targets.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I think one can say with certainty that a great many civilian targets have been attacked and some of them damaged.

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As for a change of policy, we have had no change of policy at all. Our policy has been the same all along. We are doing oat best to support the United Nations and we want to bring about a cessation of hostilities at the earliest possible moment.
LORD HENDERSON: The only point I want to say on that, my Lords, is that the Government have declared many times that they recognise the right of the United Nations forces to defend themselves—I repeat, to defend themselves. These instances are cited as though they were non-military targets deliberately attacked by the United Nations forces. I think that is creating a quite wrong impression in the minds of the public.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, has the noble Earl any reference—
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I think in a matter of this importance it would be helpful if my noble friend could be given the opportunity to answer one set of questions before another set of questions is put.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, may I ask Her Majesty's Government whether, if the civilian objectives had been used as military posts and this had not been mentioned in their reports by their own accredited observers, that would be reprehensible as an act of bad faith? We must take it that things are as they say.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I should like to make it clear that we are not pre-judging these matters and we are not making any charge of bad faith. We are merely giving these instances, I think rightly, as very strong arguments and support of our case for the earliest possible cease-fire. If fighting develops in this way, it may lead to consequences which may be irretrievable and which may have even fatal results to the survival of the United Nations.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, has asked whether these places which are being bombed are not being used as snipers' nests, or something like that,
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by Katangan troops—a very fair question. But is it not a fact that a number of these installations which have been bombed in Katanga, such as the Union Minière refinery, are 20, 30 or 40 miles from any place where there are any Katangan troops, or at least where there is any fighting going on?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I think I mentioned in a previous answer that some of these targets attacked were a very long way from any possible military objective and that we found it difficult to reconcile these attacks with the defensive nature of the action which is taking place.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he would try to answer the question by the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, about attacks by the Katangan air force? The noble Earl has come down equipped with a number of statements about attacks by the United Nations air force; bas he come down with any information at all about attacks which we know are being made by Katangan airmen?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, the day before yesterday I gave the latest example of that—I think the noble Earl may remember, as he was in the House—when I mentioned that there was an attack on the night of December 10–11 on the Elisabethville airport. I am now just looking up the OFFICIAL REPORT to make quite sure I have it right. Yes, I said this the day before yesterday [col. 231]:
"Elisabethville airport was bombed the night before last, December 10–11, and allegations have been made that the aircraft came either from Kipushi or, more generally, from abroad,"
and I added that Sir Roy Welensky had denied these allegations.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware of reports appearing from reputable correspondents in a paper like the Daily Mail, which are described as giving these things from the point of view of those on the airstrip, from the point of view of the Katangan airmen?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Very likely, my Lords. All I am saying is that if these things go on and develop and become

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worse, the United Nations may find themselves involved in an interminable war of suppression in Katanga, and the more of these instances that happen, the more difficult it may be to prevent them and to bring about an early peace. That is why we think it is so urgent that a ceasefire should be achieved as soon as possible.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I suggest that perhaps we should be called to order by the noble Viscount the Leader of the House for going on too long, but it is a very important question. May we know from the Minister of State, subject to what transpires in the debate in another place to-day, whether we are to understand that the Government's policy in this matter has been the subject of consultation with and agreement with the United States? We are very anxious about the position in general, and I should like to know whether the statements in the Press this morning as to the views of the United States are correct and whether they were the subject of consultation with the Government.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, may I say how delighted I am to see the noble Viscount back in such good form? As regards the current action in Katanga, I do not think there is any difference in broad policy aims between ourselves and the United States. We both believe that the United Nations should not seek to impose a solution of the Katanga problem by force. We both support these efforts at conciliation and we have both been doing everything possible to promote a meeting between Mr. Adoula and Mr. Tshombe. On the question of appreciation of the immediate situation, there is at the moment this difference: that we think it will be the advantage of everybody that a cease-fire should take place at once, whereas—as the noble Viscount has probably noticed this morning—the United States spokesman has said he thinks a cease-fire should take place a little later when certain "minimum objectives" have been achieved. While that is a perfectly reasonable attitude, we should like to be sure that these "minimum objectives" do not involve heavy street fighting and heavy civilian casualties, which might make any peaceful solution impossible.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I think it is clear, from what we have been told this afternoon, that, whoever is responsible, the continuation of the present fighting is deplorable and may be disastrous. At the same time, judging from reports which some of us have read in the newspapers, it does not seem that the Secretary-General sees any need for undue hurry in giving an answer. What I wanted to ask was this—I do not want to put it in too crude a form—have the Government put any time limit on an answer to be given by the Secretary-General, or is the situation to be allowed to drag out without any reply from the United Nations? I do not say he should not be given sufficient time, but ought there not to be some time limit there for an answer to be given?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, no one could be more anxious for a speedy cessation to hostilities than Her Majesty's Government. I think it would be a mistake in the present circumstances to seek to impose a time limit on the Secretary-General, Mr. U Thant, whom we believe personally to be doing his best in very difficult conditions. He is under pressure from all kinds of people, including the Russians, who have a vested interest in disorder in the Congo.

FAMILY ALLOWANCES AND NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
ARGYLL COUNTY COUNCIL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936), deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 35 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) and Standing Order No. 41 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be suspended until the House adjourns for the Recess.—(Earl St. Aldwyn.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

NATIONAL INSURANCE (MARRIED WOMEN) AMENDMENT REGULATIONS, 1961
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, these Regulations are primarily intended to deal with minor difficulties which have come to notice since the passage of legislation in 1957 as regards retirement pensions for widows. Since 1957 widows receiving national insurance widows benefit qualify for retirement pension on their own insurance. To help them do this, they may take over their husband's contribution record up to the date of his death, and thereafter are credited with a contribution for each week in which they are entitled to benefit. The difficulties I have mentioned relate to these credits, in that circumstances have come to notice in which the credits cannot technically be awarded although the widow could reasonably be expected to receive them. These regulations make it possible to award such credits, to fill the gaps in the widow's contribution record, which might otherwise result in a retirement pension being payable at a lower rate than widow's pension.
The widows mainly concerned are some who have been abroad, some who cannot receive widow's benefit because they are receiving some other payment, some whose claims for widow's benefit were late, and some who had become entitled to widow's benefit only as a result of 1956 legislation. I beg to move that these Regulations be approved.
Moved, That the National Insurance (Married Women) Amendment Regulations be approved.—(Lord Denham.)
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, may I, on behalf of my noble friends, approve these Regulations? They do indeed introduce new provisions. The noble Lord will agree with me that many married women had the feeling that the original regulations embodied an injustice which I think has
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now been removed. Therefore these Regulations are perfectly satisfactory.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

GLASGOW CORPORATION (PARKING METERS) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Read 3a (according to Order).

CIVIL AVIATION (EUROCONTROL) BILL
3.55 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The main purpose of the Bill is to provide for the necessary changes in the law so that we can ratify the Convention relating to co-operation for the safety of air navigation, known as Eurocontrol, and fulfil our obligations under it. Each year brings more and more rapid advances in the speed and efficiency of aircraft. Twenty-five years ago the average transport aeroplane would have a cruising speed of about 150 miles an hour; now the equivalent speed would be 550 miles an hour. Twenty-five years ago these aircraft would fly at a height of not more than 10,000 feet; now they fly at a height of anything from 30,000 to 40,000 feet. At the same time there has been a very great increase in the volume and density of air traffic. It goes without saying that if air travel is to remain safe and reliable, ground services must keep pace in improving their air traffic control systems, so as to be able to cope with the continual increases in speeds, operating altitudes and rates of ascent and descent of modern aeroplanes.
Her Majesty's Government have had these problems continually in mind. In 1957 the national airways and Air Traffic Control Development plan was announced. This plan, which is going ahead, includes new radar stations which will give complete cover of the United Kingdom airways system. Information from this will be linked into new air traffic control centres with joint control rooms which will bring civil and military air traffic control together. Plotted radar displays will take the place of position

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reports from pilots. As the system moves towards automation, computers and automatic display will be used more and more. This plan is aimed not only at increasing safety but also at making the fullest possible use of limited air space. Similarly, we have in this country the Air Traffic Control Board, an interdepartmental committee under an independent chairman, to formulate policy and co-ordinate the work of different departments. Also, in Royal Air Force Air Traffic Control Radar Units, joint teams, civil and military, keep watch on something like 90 per cent. of upper air space.
There is one essential limitation to all these plans which Her Majesty's Government have in hand for the future safety of air traffic: they can apply only to the internationally agreed limits of United Kingdom air traffic control regions. Aviation is the most international form of traffic; aircraft cannot stop at frontiers, and it is impractical, with modern speeds and conditions, to control them only within a small area. Collaboration with air traffic control administrations in neighbouring countries has done much to help. More widely, there is the existing International Civil Aviation Organisation machinery for establishing standards, et cetera. But looking ahead, the planners reach the point where, in the limited and busy airspace of Western Europe, the need to move from co-ordination to integration becomes evident. And it does so, in the first place, for the upper airspace.
A group of countries in Western Europe first embarked on common study of this problem. This led them to the desire to collaborate, in the interests of air safety, to formulate an international system of control in the upper airspace. Her Majesty's Government welcomed the opportunity they were given to join in these preparatory studies. It was decided that a joint organisation should be set up to deal primarily with the control of the upper airspace of its members, but with the possibility of extending, by general agreement, to other airspace also. This organisation, now called Eurocontrol, was to undertake the responsibility for providing an efficient system of air navigation for general air traffic—that is to say, civil aircraft and those military, customs and police aircraft
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which conform to the procedures of the International Civil Aviation Organisation—and to ensure that there is proper co-ordination with the activities of other military aircraft.
The Eurocontrol organisation is to consist of two parts: the Commission, which will be the policy forming body, and the Agency, which will be responsible for the actual administration. Both the Commission and the Committee of management of the Agency will be composed of representatives of the contracting parties to the Convention, and so the member Governments will have a constant voice in all questions of policy and management. The United Kingdom signed the Eurocontrol Convention in Brussels on December 13, 1960, in company with Belgium, France, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and the Federal Republic of Germany.
As I have said, this Bill is designed to make the necessary changes in the law so that we can ratify the Convention and fulfil our obligations under it. It is also an appropriate vehicle in which to include provisions to enable the Minister to raise charges for navigation services provided by him. This was foreshadowed in the White Paper on Civil Aerodromes and Air Navigation Services.
Clause 1 of the Bill defines the Convention, and the organisation, which includes the Commission and the Agency. Clause 2 defines the status and privileges of Eurocontrol. Subsection (3) gives inviolability to the archives and premises of the organisation. Under the proviso of this subsection, constables, courts of inquiry, inspectors of accidents, et cetera, are not precluded from access in the circumstances mentioned. Clause 3 enables the Minister to make payments to the organisation, and to provide the organisation with land, premises, installations, equipment or services they may require, for which purpose his powers under the Civil Aviation Act, 1949, are extended in subsection (3).
Clause 4 deals with charges for air navigation services. Subsection (1) empowers the Minister to make regulations by statutory instrument requiring payment for navigational services provided by the Minister or the organisation. The services provided by the Minister are those I have already referred to. Subsection (2) provides that liability for

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charges may be imposed on the operator of the aircraft or on the aerodrome, or may be shared between the two. Subsection (3) provides that the Minister shall determine the amount of the charges and that the regulations may contain dispensation from such charges. Subsection (4) empowers the Minister to make regulations requiring operators or managers of aerodromes to keep and produce records. Subsection (5) provides that regulations are subject to a Negative Resolution by either House of Parliament.
Clause 5 provides for the admissibility of records as evidence in proceedings for recovery of charges or for failure to obey the directions of Air Traffic Control. Clause 6 deals with offences and maximum penalties under the Bill. Clause 7 (1) applies Part VI of the Civil Aviation Act, 1949, to Clauses 4 to 6 of the Bill. The effect of this is, among other things, to give extra-territorial effect to regulations made under Clause 4 so far as United Kingdom registered aircraft are concerned, and to preclude application of Clauses 4 to 6 to Crown aircraft, except as provided by Order-in-Council. Subsection (2) provides for the detention of aircraft for the purpose of securing payment, or ensuring production of records. Subsection (3) confers jurisdiction over claims for charges under Clause 4 if the defendant lives outside the jurisdiction of the Court.
Under a Protocol to the Convention, a provisional Eurocontrol Commission has already been formed to undertake preliminary planning. Much good work has already been done. It is heartening to see the degree of co-operation which has already been achieved between this country and our friends in Europe in the field of aviation. It is no less gratifying to state that already other Western European countries are showing an interest in what we are doing. One can certainly visualise future additions to the Eurocontrol family. The establishment of Eurocontrol will be an historic event in the annals of aviation, and Her Majesty's Government believe that, in co-operation with the efforts and resources of its member countries, it will make an inestimable contribution towards the increased safety and efficiency
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of flying. My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Denham.)
4.5 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, while, clearly, we must welcome this Bill, I am a little surprised at the rather cursory explanation that has been given us. The noble Lord went through this, as I think, most complicated matter at extremely high speed. I should have thought that this was a Bill which requires a good deal of attention from some of our legal colleagues in this House. I say this with some hesitation, because the last time I was involved in legal matters, on the Carriage by Air Bill, the weight of legal opinion was such that, by the end of the debate, I had slipped my disc. Therefore I shall be a little more careful on this occasion.
I should like to make one or two quick general remarks, and then to refer to certain matters on which I hope perhaps we may have a little more explanation. It is perfectly clear that there is a tremendous need for this international control organisation, and I should like to congratulate the Government on their initiative and on getting it brought into effect. It is unfortunate that it is still only confined to certain countries. I think it is particularly unfortunate that Italy has, so far, not found it possible to enter into the Convention, for the very reasons for which this European control is being set up—namely, the difficulty in harmonising their requirements with those of other countries against their military aviation requirements.
This is a matter on which I hope the Government, through diplomatic and other channels, will bring pressure, because it is of importance that as many European countries as possible should enter this Convention. In the process of doing this, I hope we shall have regard not only to our main national interests, and to the operation of the Commission and the Agency, but also to some of the smaller interests within this country. In particular, I have in mind the question of the operation of air corridors in relation to an island like Jersey. Whether there is consultation on these interests I do not know, but there is certainly an impression abroad that they are apt to

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be lost in the deals that are made between the French and British Aviation Ministries and the other interested parties.
Having said that, I should like to ask the Government whether they can give us any idea of the sort of installations which are to be set up. Are they likely to be on our airfields? Are they likely to lead to employment for many people, either from this country or abroad? Is it a subject on which the Government have concern at the extent to which British equipment will be used?
Furthermore, is the expenditure that will arise from this Convention likely to be yet another difficult factor from the standpoint of the balance of payments? And here, I have a serious criticism. It is most difficult to tell from reading the Convention what this is going to cost us. We have been told that it is likely to cost about £3 million at the beginning, and thereafter £2 million a year. Clause 3, which is the money clause, says that:
"The Minister may from time to time pay to the Organisation such sums … being sums for … which Her Majesty's Government … are liable under the Convention."
We are entering into a pretty heavy commitment. I think we should enter into it, but the commitment suffers from the disadvantage that it is almost impossible for any parliamentarian to understand it. If one looks at the Convention, and at the relative clauses, one finds that certain of these payments are calculated as a proportion of the gross national product and certain are not; and in a different way this raises quite serious questions with regard to Parliamentary control over the nation's finances. Clearly, the Government must be able to commit us, but can we be told whether (they are satisfied that calculation in relation to the gross national product is, in fact, the right way of proceeding?
Are other countries which are not members of Eurocontrol going to pay proportionately higher? As I understand the relevant Articles, they will do so. It is perhaps a pity that the Convention is not included as a Schedule to the Bill, as was done in the case of the Carriage by Air Bill All the Bill says, is that the Minister may pay "such sums" as are liable, and I think that we are entering into what is likely to become a very heavy national commitment,
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indeed. On the other hand, I can see a further advantage in this, in that it is likely to lead to greater equalisation in the different types of support which Governments give to their own aviation. Since we know that our own civil aviation is at a disadvantage compared with others, because of our enormously high airport charges, perhaps this will lead to some measure of equalisation and an equivalent level of subsidisation, at least so far as the control services are concerned.
My Lords, I should like to turn very briefly to some of the legal provisions of this Bill. In a debate in another place the Minister said, in so many words, that no man should be condemned on the record of a computer, and that it should not be regarded as conclusive. This is rather ominous. The day is obviously not very far away when we shall be not only condemned but, in fact, judged by computers. Our learned colleagues may bear a less attractive human aspect than they do at the moment.
My Lords, what does this mean? Presumably all kinds of records are admissible, or are likely to be admissible, as evidence. Does this mean that records will be permanently kept? Or for how long will they be kept? And will records be kept from the computers, which presumably will take over more and more of the operations of Eurocontrol? Then, how far will the individual citizen have access to those records in any action that he may wish to bring? We understand that by process of the court, or some similar legal process (again, my learned colleagues will be better able to deal with this point), they could have access to them. This seems to me to be a matter of some importance; all the more so, since a degree of admittedly limited diplomatic privilege is being granted to the authority in this country.
The final point to which I should like to refer is the public accountability of these particular activities. I am not at this stage complaining about it, but, as I say, there is an unknown liability which in the future may grow very large. I can see no provision under this Bill for a report—although I may have missed it—on the operations of Eurocontrol. It may well be that this will be provided for under the Civil Aviation

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Acts. But if the Public Accounts Committee, or some other Parliamentary watchdog, wish to look into the operations of this international body, how far will they be enabled to do so? It has always been an important part of our public activity and public expenditure that Parliament should be in a position to investigate, but I am not sure whether it will be able to do so under this Bill. I see no reason, indeed, why all the Parliaments involved should not have similar privileges, to establish that the interests of the taxpayer and the public interests are continually under review.
My Lords, I am sorry if I have sounded a little critical. I am not critical of the Government in general terms on this matter, and I think that they have done a good job of work in advancing it so quickly. But I am sure that the noble Lord will appreciate that we are right to have some sort of anxiety, both as to the extent of the commitments we are taking on, and as to the extent to which our type of Parliamentary control in this country, and our type of legal process, will be properly protected.
4.15 p.m.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, I welcome this Bill, and I would add my congratulations to Her Majesty's Government upon their initiative. To the relief, no doubt, of those of your Lordships who are still with us this afternoon, much of what I was going to say has already been said by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, opposite, and I do not propose to repeat the points. However, I should like, if I may, to ram home one particular point.
To me, the great benefit of this Bill is simplification of air control which, as I said in your Lordships' debate on civil aviation, is one of the biggest contributors to air safety. But we still have duplication in the area which this Bill covers, in that it is responsible only for the air space above 25,000 feet. The majority of air traffic in Europe is still below this altitude, and it seems to me that this Bill, although it represents a big step which might fool some of the people some of the time, leaves outside its control more than half the flights in the area it covers. No doubt the Commission will look upon this as one of
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the problems to be solved. I would only ask Her Majesty's Government to put this point before their members of the Commission, to see that we secure proper unification at the earliest possible moment.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, mentioned that Italy is not a party to this Bill. It is unfortunate that in Italy there have been accidents, due to their lack of control over their military aircraft, and it is for just that reason, as I understand it, that they will not come into this Convention at the moment. It seems to me that it is very urgent, indeed, that Italy should be pressed to solve this problem, so that the danger to civil aircraft flying in Italian air space can be lessened at the earliest possible moment. Finally, my Lords, I should like to ask Her Majesty's Government to give this Bill the highest possible priority, so that the Commission can get down to work at the earliest possible moment.
4.18 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, there is one point that I have been asked to deal with on Second Reading, and that is the question of the access to documents under Clause 2 of the Bill. Under this clause there is provision for access to documents if there is a dispute between a citizen and the Organisation, but there is a very strong, indeed an overwhelming, limitation against the possibility of access by any individual in the case of a dispute with the Organisation. Indeed, under subsection (3) (a) of Clause 2, access is limited to constables and other persons acting in the execution of a warrant or other legal process. But, as the House will have in mind, it will often be relevant to a person who brings an action against the authority to be able to require them to produce in court documents, records and so on, which will be material in deciding whether or not the authority is liable. Therefore, it is essential that, unless there are overwhelming reasons of security, it should be possible for a person bringing such an action to enforce the production of these documents.
This matter was raised in another place on Second Reading, and also in Committee. In Committee, on December 4 last, the Minister in charge gave an

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assurance that the point would be considered. He said that the representations made in speeches from all parts of the House would be considered by the Government, and, presumably, that some statement would be made of action taken. It is proposed to put down an Amendment to the Bill on this point when it comes before the Committee here, but I should be grateful if the noble Lord who is dealing with this matter could say whether the Government have in fact considered the matter, and whether they have any statement to make as a result of that consideration.
4.21 p.m.
LORD WALERAN: My Lords, I had not intended to speak on the Second Reading of this Bill, but some remarks fell from my noble friend Lord Gosford about the airspace above 25,000 feet. It may be that we shall have to examine this more closely during the Committee stage. It seems to me that in the defence, not only of this country but of Western Europe, we have a lot of early warning radar stations which are already in being, some of them in this country. There are three joint civil and R.A.F. radar stations working very happily and very well together. I should like to ask the noble Lord who is to reply whether the whole of the N.A.T.O. Early Defence Warning System will be used, in conjunction with civil aviation, to scan the increased altitude line, the airspace above 25,000 feet, for the purpose of their exercise and to keep them on their toes; and whether they will co-operate with the Civil Air Control.
4.23 p.m.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I should like to thank all the noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, and also to thank them for the broad, general support that they have given to this Bill. It is a measure which Her Majesty's Government feel strongly is very necessary so that we should have Eurocontrol. First, I should like to apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, for speeding through the provisions of the Bill. I assure him, and the rest of the House, that I intended no discourtesy by this; but, as the noble Lord will appreciate, it is quite a complicated Bill, and if I were to have gone into all the clauses in detail I would have taken a considerable
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amount of your Lordships' time, and there is other business to go through. I thought it would be better if I went quickly through the provisions in my initial speech, and then tried to answer any questions that your Lordships had as I wound up.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and my noble friend Lord Gosford both said that they thought it a very great pity that Italy could not see her way clear to remaining in the countries of Eurocontrol. Her Majesty's Government very much appreciate the fact that the more countries that come into Eurocontrol the better, and they hope that other countries will be joining—and, indeed, Italy, too. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, asked me about Jersey. There is close consultation between the United Kingdom authorities and the Jersey authorities on air traffic control. I can give the noble Lord that assurance. The next point that the noble Lord raised was whether expenditure under Eurocontrol was likely to affect the balance of payments. My information is that it is not likely to affect the balance of payments significantly so far as can be foreseen now. It might do so more, say, twenty years hence—and, as the noble Lord is aware, Eurocontrol is to last initially for twenty years. Our contribution to Eurocontrol can be in kind as well as in money: that is, the services we provide, the equipment, et cetera, are taken into consideration in our contribution as well as the money payments. There is just one other point about that, and that is that if we did not incur this expense, the expense for supervision of the airspace, via Eurocontrol, we should have to spend it on our own national system for much the same purpose, and, I should imagine, in much the same amounts.
The system of calculating the payment of countries by reference to gross national products will, of course, be under review. Broadly, for the first three years of operation the contributions will be in proportion to the gross national products of member States averaged over the last three years for which details are available. Thereafter, contributions to capital expenditure are based on a gross national product formula, while contributions for recurrent expenditure will be based partly upon gross national product and partly in proportion to the

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value of services rendered by the organisation to civil aircraft registered in the territory of each member State. The value of the services will be determined by the Commission and revised every five years. Of course, this method of assessing the costs has been looked into very thoroughly, and it is considered to be the best method.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, before the noble Lord leaves that point, may I ask whether it is the fact that this country will be bearing about one-third of the cost of the whole of this particular operation?
LORD DENHAM: That is a fact, my Lords, under present G.N.P.; but, of course, there is another aspect of this question. Our voice in Eurocontrol will not be quite as great as one-third, but it will be at least a quarter: that is, our vote in the weighted voting will be the highest.
LORD WALERAN: My Lords, I do not want to interrupt the noble Lord unduly, but I am sure the House would like to know how we can possibly control or get paid for aircraft under our control which overfly us. Most of the big jets to-day are flying from America to various parts of Europe, and we shall have to control them. I should very much like to know, and I am sure the House would like to know, how we can get paid for our facilities when they overfly us.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I hope the efficiency of Eurocontrol will be such that tracking systems will enable them to know which aircraft are using the air space, and from where they are coming. If records are kept, they would be paid for aircraft that overfly, just as much as those which actually use our airports, because they will be using the control system.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, also mentioned computers. My right honourable friend in another place pointed out that although this Bill enables computers to be used as evidence, they cannot be taken as absolute evidence. They are not infallible.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I am very sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but I really do not understand
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what he means. I do not know whether "absolute evidence" is a legal term, anyway. I should have thought that on these rather tricky points we might have had the help of the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack, because these are very difficult points.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I will try to go more fully into this point.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, may I be permitted to explain the point which I think my noble friend has in mind? There may be a great deal of incontrovertible evidence. If the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, looks at the clause he will see that the records are
"produced from the custody of that authority or person"
as evidence. That is, they are admissible in evidence, and receivable in evidence; but, of course, the matter can be corrected by evidence on the other side. If the noble Lord has any difficulty, I can send him a note about it or I will be very pleased to deal with it on Committee stage, but I wanted to help him out on this point at once. I hope my noble friend does not mind my intervention.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I thank my noble and learned friend for helping me on that matter. The other point which the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, mentioned was accountability to Parliament. I think perhaps I could best quote what my honourable friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation said on this subject in another place. He said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 649 (No. 19), col. 1779]:
"The House will have the Annual Estimates, which can be debated, in which the moneys due to Eurocontrol will figure. Hon. Members will be able to put Parliamentary Questions to my right hon. Friend on the actions of his representatives on the Council, and we are promoting the idea of an annual report being published by the Organisation which could be deposited in the Library for the information of the House, as is the custom with other international organisations".
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I am very sorry—the noble Lord has been very patient—but the point I made went rather deeper. It was directed to the extent to which the Parliamentary Committee system and Public Accounts

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Committees were able in fact to make direct investigation, with the powers they have at the moment, with regard to our home operations; and to whether they would be able to investigate, send for papers or persons, and do the sort of investigation they carry out with regard to nationalised bodies or Government services.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I think, if the noble Lord will permit me, I will look into that point and let him have that information in fuller detail. Then, my noble friend Lord Gosford spoke about the upper air space, and, as he said, in this country the upper air space starts at 25,000 feet. That is not the same as in some of the other countries of Eurocontrol; in some of the other countries the upper air space starts at 20,000 feet, and exactly where the upper air space starts is one of the subjects which Eurocontrol will have under consideration. There is always the possibility that, at a later stage, Eurocontrol will take over for the same countries, by agreement, control of the lower air space as well.
LORD WALERAN: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord again, but is he saying that other countries will take over the lower air space over this country, the United Kingdom?
LORD DENHAM: No, my Lords. Under the Eurocontrol Convention, there is the possibility for one country, by agreement, to have control of its air space, upper or lower, taken over by others; but it would not be possible for that to happen to any country which did not want it so to happen. My noble friend Lord Waleran also asked whether the Early Defence Warning System would be integrated in the Eurocontrol system. So far as is possible, present installations will be integrated and use will be made of existing systems whenever desirable.
The noble Lord, Lord Silk in, raised the question of inviolability of archives and premises of the Eurocontrol organisation. This is another fairly complicated legal subject, I am afraid. The position is this. Her Majesty's Government are of the opinion that it is necessary for Eurocontrol to have this inviolability of archives. In fact, if we did not make provision for that in this Bill, we could
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not honourably ratify the Convention, because the Convention calls for that from its member countries. I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has an Amendment down at a later stage dealing with the point that the noble Lord has in mind, so perhaps it might be for the convenience of the House if further discussion were left to the Committee stage.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I have no objection to that, but I do not know how Lord Ogmore can possibly have an Amendment put down to a Bill which has not yet had its Second Reading. I presume he has told the noble Lord informally that he proposes to move one. The reason why I inquire is this. I do not expect the noble Lord to enter into the merits of the question, but will he let the House know whether, as promised, the Government have given further consideration to all the arguments which have been put forward in another place on Second Reading and in Committee? Is the noble Lord now giving us the result of that consideration or is he telling us what induced the Government to put this provision into the Bill originally?
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I am telling your Lordships both. Her Majesty's Government have made a very full study of all the arguments in another place, and they are still of the opinion that the archives must be given the protection they are given in the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE ADMINISTRATION BILL [H.L.]
4.41 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, your Lordships will remember that at the conclusion of the Report stage, the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, asked me to make a short statement on Third Reading about the matters on which he and my noble and learned friend Lord Goddard, had put down Amendments on the Committee stage and about which I had subsequently written to both the

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noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said he thought this would save time on Third Reading, and I readily undertook to do as I was asked.
I will deal first, if I may, since the point is a short one, with the Amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, which would have placed clerks to justices under a statutory obligation to notify probation officers at the higher courts as soon as a prisoner had been committed to one of those courts. We are all, of course, anxious to ensure that the necessary information should be given to the higher courts' probation staff at the earliest possible moment. The only question is how best to achieve this result.
As your Lordships will remember, the recommendations in Part B of the Streatfeild Report deal with the information with which the courts ought to be provided to enable them to select the most appropriate treatment for offenders. These recommendations all hang together, and they appear to me to be essentially matters to be dealt with by administrative arrangements. The provision of reports for probation officers will require close co-operation between the probation service, the police, the prison service and the courts. This was, I think, a point that was very much in the mind of my noble friend Lord Raglan, when he spoke on Lord Silkin's Amendment. Arrangements are being made to issue instructions and guidance to all concerned so that the recommendations in Part B can be brought into effect by administrative means, and I think it would be inappropriate to single out this particular matter for a statutory provision. I should prefer to leave the arrangements as flexible as possible, unfettered by any statutory requirements, until we have had time to see how the new scheme of things is working.
However, I want to assure the noble Lord that I am satisfied that I have power under the Justices of the Peace Act, 1949, and the Magistrates' Courts Act, 1952, to make a rule to the same effect as the Amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, should the need arise. On the principle that one should not flog a willing horse, if I may so refer to clerks to justices, I should much prefer to trust to the co-operation
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which they have habitually given whenever I or, for that matter, my successors at the Home Office have suggested any improvements in administrative practice. But I say again to the noble Lord that, should it be necessary the remedy is there.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, before the noble and learned Viscount leaves that point, I think it would save time and a speech from me if he could give me an assurance that in fact the clerks will be asked to do this. I follow what the noble and learned Viscount has said—that he does not want it to be made statutory or even want to make a regulation at the moment—but if the clerks will be asked to do it and the results watched and, if necessary, a regulation made, I think that would go a long way to satisfy me.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, that is certainly the intention of the Home Office, as I understand it. To be quite frank, I have not the actual method more fully in my mind that I have explained in my speech, but I know that that is the intention and I am sure that everything will be done to see that the noble Lord's wish is achieved.
I now turn to the Amendment which my noble and learned friend Lord Goddard withdrew on the Committee stage on my undertaking to look at the matter again. It was designed to enable me to compel boroughs with more than 65,000 inhabitants to petition for a separate Committee of the Peace or a separate court of quarter sessions. I undertook on the Committee stage to consult the Association of Municipal Corporations about this proposal and I have now done so. The Association say they are confident that persuasion will secure the co-operation of borough councils in achieving the end which my noble and learned friend has in mind, but they are strongly opposed to any form of compulsion. They rightly point out that if a recorder were to be forced on an unwilling borough, it might lead to a great deal of unpleasantness and to disagreements which could do nothing but harm to the good administration of justice.
I have no reason to think that any borough council would decline to petition for a separate court of quarter

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sessions if it were suggested to them that it was their duty to do so. I can find no instance of this ever having happened, and the task of those responsible for these matters has been to restrain unsuitable applicants rather than to stimulate petitions. There has, I think, been some misapprehension about the financial advantage to a borough of not having its own court of quarter sessions. In general, this is negligible.
Although the theoretical justification for increasing the number of separate courts of quarter sessions may appear to be strong, I do not think there are many places where there is any practical need to do so. But I should like to consider this point, in view of the most interesting speech of my noble and learned friend. One can rule out straight away boroughs like Newport, which was the instance given by my noble friend Lord Raglan, where county sessions are held but which do not have separate sessions for the borough itself. In cases of this kind, there could be little advantage and a good deal of wasteful duplication, if a separate court were to be set up for the borough. There are a number of other cases where any inconvenience arising from the distance of the place at which county sessions are held from the larger centres of population in the county can be counteracted by holding county sessions at different towns in turn or by their sitting in more than one division.
I concede, however, that there may be a small residue of cases where a borough's size and geographical position justifies its having a separate court of quarter sessions. Barrow-in-Furness, which has recently been granted its own court, is a case in point. The special position of this borough may be familiar to other noble Lords. My noble and learned friend Lord Goddard referred to Swindon and to the difficulties of getting from Swindon to Salisbury or Devizes where the Wiltshire Quarter Sessions are held. However, I understand that Swindon has now resolved to petition for a recorder of its own. I must not say anything which may appear to prejudge the consideration of its Petition, but clearly the geographical factors mentioned by the noble and learned Lord will be borne in mind.
He also mentioned other large towns, such as Ilford, Slough and Luton, which
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have no recorder; but in this connection I think it is most important to bear in mind the proposals for the reorganisation of local government, not only in the Greater London area but elsewhere. The review of local government areas now in progress throughout the country does in many cases provide a very good reason for postponing action on these matters at the present time. I can, however, assure your Lordships that I shall not hesitate in appropriate cases to take the necessary steps to ensure that separate courts of quarter sessions are available in the bigger centres of population which clearly ought to possess them. I am sure, however, that your Lordships will agree with me that in these matters, as in so many others, it is much better to achieve one's end by persuasion than by wielding the big stick; and this I hope to do.
There is only one other point that I think I ought to mention, in view of the interesting leading article in The Times to-day. Your Lordships will remember that on the Committee stage of the Bill the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, tabled a number of Amendments which dealt with three points connected with the issue of insanity: the question of allowing an appeal against a verdict of guilty but insane; the question of allowing the prosecution to raise the issue of insanity where the defence is diminished responsibility; and the procedure for finding an accused person unfit to plead. In the course of the debate I indicated that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary had decided to refer the first of these issues to the Criminal Law Revision Committee, and that he was also considering reference to the Committee of the second question. As regards the procedure for finding an accused person unfit to plead, I indicated that this was a difficult matter and that I should like to consider further with my right honourable friend the question whether it also should be referred to the Criminal Law Revision Committee.
These matters have been under consideration in the meantime, and my right honourable friend has had further correspondence on them with the Lord Chief Justice. It has not, however, yet been possible to come to a final conclusion on the question whether they should be

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referred to the Committee, and if so, in what terms. Your Lordships will appreciate that the question of unfitness to plead is, in particular, a difficult one, and as some of your Lordships may remember, it has been considered by highly qualified bodies. The Atkin Committee considered it before they reported in 1923, and it was also considered by the Royal Commission on Capital Punishment, so far as capital cases were concerned.
I need not go into the conclusions of these bodies, but I want to say this. In view of their conclusions, it is necessary to consider very carefully, first, whether new evidence has come to light and whether the situation has changed in such a way as to make it desirable to have a further inquiry into the subject; and, secondly, if so, what would be the most appropriate way to undertake it. These are questions which need proper investigation and consideration, and I regret that I am not able to-day to let your Lordships know what the answer may be. But in view of the most interesting manner in which this was first raised by the noble Lord, Lord Chorley (I see that he has now returned to the Chamber, and I said this before he did so), and the leading article in The Times to-day in which the noble Lord's points are developed, I wanted to assure him that it is receiving and will receive full consideration.
LORD CHORLEY: I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am sorry to have taken up this time, but the three points with which I have dealt are points that were raised by noble Lords, and it is only right that I should deal with them on this Third Reading. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
4.55 p.m.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, I much regret that, owing to absence at the other end of the world, I was unable to take part in the earlier debates on this Bill, but I hope it is not too late to give it a little long-delayed word of welcome. It is even now less than a year since the Streatfeild Report was signed, and it cannot but be a great
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satisfaction to myself, as a member of that Committee—not to say a vociferous member—that our recommendations should have made such speedy headway towards the Statute Book. It is true that this Bill does not yet do quite everything that some of us might wish it would do. Some of us were perhaps hoping that further advance might now have been made on the Amendments which were moved by my noble friend Lord Chorley, on which the Lord Chancellor has just now reported. We are very glad to learn that certain of the points raised will be considered by the Criminal Law Revision Committee, and I hope that we may soon hear that the extremely difficult problem of unfitness to plead may be further and fruitfully explored by his own researches.
To the lay mind (and perhaps it is somewhat imprudent for a layman to enter into this extremely difficult field) it appears that in the case of unfitness to plead a distinction is emerging between unfitness to plead, which is apparent before the presentation of the prosecution's case, and unfitness to offer a defence, which is a slightly different matter and might appear at a later stage. I think, also, that some of us had in mind that already in the Mental Health Act a distinction has been drawn between the finding by a court in the form of a conviction and the finding by a court that a person has done the act with which he is charged, but that in that case it merits no conviction. It is possible that in these areas there may lie a hint as to solutions for this very difficult matter that at least deserve consideration. But no doubt a layman should not say more on that topic.
Certainly the Streatfeild Committee hoped that the recommendations embodied in this Bill would do much to rationalise and expedite justice. I should like to refer to the extended jurisdiction of the magistrates, and particularly to the extension which gives them the right to try "breaking" cases. As many of your Lordships are aware, in a great number of these cases the distinction between a charge of larceny and one of "breaking" is hardly more than a technical matter, and there seems no valid reason why both should not be dealt with by the same court. It is reasonable. I think, to hope that this extension of

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the justices' jurisdiction will greatly relieve the pressure upon quarter sessions, while at the same time perhaps not unduly overworking those willing horses the lay justices.
I see that in the Second Reading debate some of your Lordships expressed surprise that in this extension of jurisdiction breaking into dwellinghouses was excluded, even though often breaking into shops and warehouses involved very much larger sums of money and more damage than housebreaking. Your Lordships may be aware that what was certainly in the mind of the Streatfeild Committee was that the sum of money involved is not always the major consideration, and that what puts housebreaking into a special category is the alarm which is caused to the house-owner. For that reason, they were not prepared to include housebreaking in the extended jurisdiction of the magistrates.
I should also like to refer, with pleasure, to Clause 15 of this Bill. Her Majesty's judges often say in private conversation that it is their custom, in passing sentence, to take into account any period that an accused person has already spent in custody and they sometimes say this in particular cases publicly, when they are passing sentence. But they have hitherto been under no obligation either to take this period into account or to say that they have done so when they have. This new provision, I think your Lordships will agree, is yet another step towards the principle that justice must not only be clone, but must be visibly done.
As has been implied, this Bill deals with nearly all the recommendations in the first part of the Streatfeild Committee's Report. One minor, incidental consequence of this rapid acceptance of Part I of the Report has been that Part II has had very little discussion in your Lordships' House. The Lord Chancellor has told us that, with one exception, practically all the recommendations in Part II are matters for administrative action rather than for legislation, and therefore they do not come within the purview of this Bill. We are glad to hear that serious consideration is being given to the administrative steps necessary to give effect to them, for I am sure that those of your Lordships who have studied this Report will share the view that many of the
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recommendations in Part II are at least as important as those to which effect is given by this Bill.
I hope I shall not be deemed to be out of order if, in the debate upon the Third Reading of this Bill, I make a brief reference to some of the most important of those recommendations. In Part II of the Streatfeild Committee's Report, your Lordships will find a fairly exhaustive analysis of the factors which need to be taken into consideration in this day and age in determining the appropriate sentence to be passed upon an offender. I think it is implicit in this analysis that passing sentence is not only an extremely complex matter, but that it is also a matter of which knowledge is being accumulated by research, and in which skill can be acquired by appropriate professional training. In this implication there may lie far-reaching consequences for the future of legal education. Lawyers are notoriously conservative, though a few distinguished exceptions are to be found among my noble friends on these Benches. I think it is remarkable that, in spite of the conservatism of the legal profession, this Report was signed by two Queen's Counsel, and that the Chairman of the Committee who signed it was himself a High Court Judge.
This Report has gone very far in indicating the large part which actual research and new knowledge now means to play in the determination of sentences. The Report went so far as to state that sentencing is in a sense an emergent branch of the law, and that the accummulated knowledge and experience of this branch may in time be expected to reach the stage of development at which a new text book on the subject will be required. They state, too, that no amount of paper information—I paraphrase the exact words—fully compensates for visits to penal institutions in enabling one who has to pass sentence to grasp what that sentence implies. These are developments which, as I have suggested, may have very far-reaching consequences, and it is a particular pleasure to see that they have been accepted by the distinguished representatives of the law who were members of this Committee and with whom I had the privilege to serve on it.
In the meantime, I hope that we shall hear soon from the Lord Chancellor

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what steps are being taken to see that the new knowledge which is now becoming available about the effect of sentences as a result of scientific research is brought to the attention of those upon whom devolves the onerous duty of passing sentence in criminal cases. In principle, I think we on these Benches welcome this Bill very much; and I am glad that the opportunity has been given to me, though late, to say a word in support of it.
5.6 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am sure the whole House is very glad that the opportunity has presented itself to enable the noble Baroness to speak upon this Bill. It also gives me a further opportunity of thanking her, in particular, and her colleagues in the Streatfeild Committee in general, for the most valuable work they did. I was glad that she could give the Bill her general blessing and that she should call attention to-day to two particular aspects of the Bill itself. As the noble Baroness is aware, one question which the Committee considered before making their proposals which now form the basis of the Bill, was that of local criminal courts on the pattern of the Liverpool and Manchester Crown courts. This question has been one which, I know from the Report, gave them a lot of thought, and, of course, there has been some discussion upon it.
Two of my main objectives since I have been Lord Chancellor have been, first of all, to make the various courts, by their jurisdiction and location, available and convenient to the people who are likely to have to use them, either voluntarily or involuntarily. The second point is to give access for these people to the civil courts and, indeed, to the magistrates' courts, by the extension of legal aid. On the first point, I am glad that the noble Baroness has given her approval, because I feel it was necessary for us to deal with the nation-wide problem first: that is, to get Assizes into the form which would be more convenient and to extend the operation of quarter sessions and the jurisdiction of petty sessions, because they deal with the country as a whole. As I said on Second Reading—and I think the noble Baroness will again support me in this—if, after we have dealt with the nation-wide problem,
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we find certain local problems are even more pressing than we thought and not dealt with by a nation-wide remedy, then we can consider them again. I want to make that clear.
I am glad again that reference was made to Part II of the Report, because the first of the questions—the information which is to be provided before courts decide which is the best method of treatment—is one that I can assure the noble Lady is very near the heart of my right honourable friend Mr. Butler, because he considers it so important a part of the general operation in dealing with crime to-day. I also think that what has been said in the Report and to-day about sentencing is again valuable, and will receive wide consideration. I am grateful to everyone who has taken part in the discussions on this Bill, and I hope your Lordships will now give it a Third Reading.
On Question, Bill read 3a: an Amendment (privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

LICENSING (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
5.10 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be again in Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
Clause 16 [Police inspection of clubs]:
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS moved to leave out Clause 16. The noble Viscount said: Throughout the course of the Committee stage on Tuesday there were two threads which ran through the burden of my noble friend Lord Craigton's song. One of them was that, unless the circumstances made it inescapable, we should not depart from the recommendations of the Committee presided over by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Guest. The other was—again, unless it was inescapable—that provisions north of the Border should be similar to those south of it. In the case of Clause 16 these two principles come inevitably into conflict

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because, on the one hand, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Guest, and his Committee reported that the provisions which are contained in this clause should be the law in Scotland, whereas during the progress of the Licensing Bill before your Lordships in the last Session such a step was categorically rejected in England and Wales.
That rejection came in the face of an Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham. The noble Lord, from his great experience of the seamiest side of the underworld, referred with great fervour to the deplorable state of some of the clubs which he knew and in the areas with which he is familiar; and to judge by what he has said those clubs were to be deplored very much indeed. Yet when he moved that the police should have the power of entry which is now proposed in this clause for Scotland, my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor spoke the words which were quoted to your Lordships on Second Reading by the noble Lord, Lord Hughes. He said, if I may quote a very brief sentence [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 233 (No. 11 I), col. 628]:
"The vast majority of opinion of all Parties accepts that to allow the police to enter club premises without warrant at any time, except for the limited purpose covered by Clause 27 of the Bill, would be an unjustifiable interference with private liberties."
Those are strong words. And when the matter was debated on Second Reading in your Lordships' House the only excuse that my noble friend Lord Craigton could find for this remarkable difference which has now come about in less than six months—that the Government are proposing to impose upon Scotland this "unjustifiable interference with private liberties"—was that, as noble Lords know, England is England, and Scotland is Scotland, and what is right for one is not necessarily Tight for the other. Well, I understood that my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor was a Scotsman, and proud to be a Scotsman, and if his opinion of what is an unjustifiable interference is not to be attended to, I do not know whose is. I think that to-day we want a very considerably more amplified explanation from my noble friend on the Front Bench than that which he gave on Second Reading to the effect that this is simply, as it were, a technical matter and he had not yet gone into the merits of whether such
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entry is, or is not, an unjustifiable interference.
Your Lordships can all form your own opinions upon this subject and I have no doubt that there are clubs in Scotland which certainly require a great deal more supervision than can be given by the law as it stands to-day. But are those clubs so much worse than those referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, that this is a measure which can be justified in Scotland on that ground alone, whereas it must be categorically rejected in England? I do not believe that to be the case, and I certainly have no reason to suppose that the Guest Committee had evidence before it to show that to be the case. Such being the facts, I consider that the noble Lord has a lot to answer to your Lordships this afternoon. I should very much like to hear how he justifies this amazing departure from the attitude of Her Majesty's Government so short a time ago, and if this step is to be introduced I cannot see how it can justifiably be done in this Bill while England remains free from the restriction. I therefore beg your Lordships to support me this afternoon in striking out this unwarrantable interference with the freedom of people in Scotland and to support me in having this clause left out of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 16.—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD CRAIGTON):Though I still think that Scotland is Scotland and England is England, I think it would be for the convenience of your Lordships if I were to state briefly the reasons why Clause 16 is in the Bill. But I must make it quite clear to your Lordships that I do not consider I should come to any final conclusion until I have heard the views of your Lordships. The Government did not lightly accept the recommendation that the police should have the power of entry without warrant into clubs. They recognise that this is to some extent an interference with private rights. It is not, however, a new principle which they are applying. It is inherent in the present licensing laws that, if those parts of the law which control the supply of liquor to the public are to be enforced and enforceable, then there must be

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control of the clubs which supply liquor to their members.
I am sure the noble Viscount would agree that the law must, as it does, prevent loosely organised clubs, which supply drink and of which anyone found in them can claim to be a member, from evading all the restrictions on supply. This is the basic purpose of the present law relating to registered clubs. The Committee of the noble Lord, Lord Guest, have found that the present law is being abused, but that this is not a defect in club law itself but in the arrangements for its enforcement. The Government are satisfied that it is very difficult for the police to spare the manpower for the enforcement of the law as it at present stands—for the long watch over the premises to get the prime facie evidence necessary; the applying for a warrant; and then the police raid. The right remedy appears to the Government to be the one suggested by the Committee.
Although, as I said on Second Reading, the police would, I am sure, act in a tactful manner, I do not for one moment suggest that the provision is one that all clubs would welcome. But there are circumstances in which the power would be welcomed by the club. Every club secretary has experienced the difficult situation in which members, despite his protests, break the law—ignoring permitted hours, getting drunk, and so on. Often the police, when they discover breaches of the law, find the committee and the secretary are genuinely anxious to see the law observed, but they cannot control the offenders. There is no alternative, if the abuse continues, but to apply the full rigour of the law. Then follows the police raid, with all its attendant publicity. In such cases it would have been better avoid all this trouble, expense and publicity, and that police powers should have been used to nip the abuse in the bud.
Although similar proposals for England and Wales were adversely received, the Guest Committee's recommendation on this subject has been singled out for a particularly warm welcome in Scotland, and received support on Second Reading from four Members on both sides of your Lordships' House—my
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noble friends Lord Haddington and Lord Ferrier and the noble Lords, Lord Hughes and Lord Stonham. In view of these facts, I am convinced that the Government are right in including Clause 16 in the Bill, but I will now listen most carefully to your Lordships' views.
VISCOUNT STUART OF FINDHORN: I listened with great interest to my noble friend the Minister of State, and I am still unconvinced that Clause 16 should remain in the Bill. I feel very strongly about this, as I warned my noble friend two days ago. I heard what he said about England being England and Scotland being Scotland, but he did not go on to say that never the twain shall meet. On this occasion the twain will meet, because England and Scotland can get together, I hope, in opposing Clause 16. I am also in grave doubt—not convinced, but in grave doubt—whether the police want these powers. It only makes them unpopular to go barging, unwanted, into other people's premises. Where they know there is bad behaviour or bad management, let them get a warrant and go and do their duty. I know we are told, as a sort of soporific, that the police will not bother you unless they have to, but I object to their being given these overriding powers. They have not got them in England. I regard it as an indignity that Scotland should be saddled with them.
I do not know whether any learned gentleman present will correct me, but I maintain that the members of a club own the furnishings, and they own the food and bottled refreshments; it is their property and therefore they should be entitled to consume it without police interference. If I am wrong, I stand to be corrected, but that is my view. On this question—which I applaud in many respects—of sticking to the recommendations of the Guest Committee, of course, the Government have already made a hole in their own case by departing from the recommendations of the Guest Committee in other respects, so really that argument no longer holds water. That is the Government's own fault, not mine. I object seriously to retaining Clause 16 in the Bill, and I shall want a great deal of convincing before I hold a contrary view.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: I should like to support the cogent arguments put forward by the noble Viscount and also by my noble friend Lord Stuart of Findhorn. I would put some further considerations before your Lordships. We have had the view of the noble and learned Viscount, the Lord Chancellor, on this matter in so far as England is concerned. I think it is extremely strange that a Party one of whose principles is to maintain our ancient institutions should move in this direction; I just do not understand it. After all, the clubs of our country are institutions which I believe are worthy of support. There are different kinds of clubs. The noble Lord, Lord Craigton, talked about loosely organised clubs, and the kind of clubs that he was speaking about were clubs with which some of us have little or no acquaintance. I think that clubs fall into three different categories: there is the residential club; the social club, bridge club and that kind of thing; and then there is the drinking club which masquerades as some kind of social club. If the law is being abused in certain of these clubs, then let the legislation be applied to them; but why rope in every club and put them under the same restrictions? That does not seem to be altogether fair or indeed to be altogether reasonable.
I do not know that I want the law of Scotland always to be similar to the law of England. The reason is that I consider the law of Scotland immensely superior to the law of England. I have no objection at all to bringing the law of England into line with the law of Scotland, but there are exceptions to that general rule, and, in my opinion, this is one of them. It is a matter of grave inconvenience to those of us who have to visit England arid who are members of English clubs to find that when we are here we are free of all interference, and then when we arrive back in our native country anti go to the club we may find a gentleman in blue standing on the front doorstep. That might be bad for our nervous systems and it is something to which we should not be subjected. I cannot find any good reason for the introduction of this provision by the Government, and I hope your Lordships will support the Amendment and reject the clause.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I should like to support the Amendment. I was fascinated by the speech of the Minister of State, which was really a Second Reading speech in favour of a provision which is not contained in the Bill for England. The noble Lord said that this was most warmly received in Scotland. I can assure him it is going to be most warmly received in your Lordships' House if he persists in his effort. The arguments have been well put already. There is only one further point I would suggest. The club, to many unmarried men, is in fact the home, the social centre. It may well be the same for some unfortunate married men, but that is not the particular point I am trying to put. For many men who are not married it is their home, and this is a proposal that there should be a right of entry into what is in effect their home.
In this age of restriction, direction, permits and control, it is indeed a retrograde step for a Conservative Government to come forward with such a proposal as is contained in Clause 16. The recommendations of the Guest Committee have not been followed right through, and therefore the argument that this is a Guest Committee proposal is not really a sound one. Apart from that, I can think of no other reason for this differentiation between Scotland and England, except that a predominantly English Cabinet wished to take revenge on Scotland for thirty years of moral, commercial and educational superiority, and I trust your Lordships will not allow that to happen.
LORD LINDGREN: The Minister seems not to be getting very much support from his own friends. I hope it will not embarrass him if I come to his aid now. The club that is well run, the club that has nothing to hide, does not worry about the possibility of police visits. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, in the debate on Tuesday informed me that some pubs in Scotland were not all they ought to be. I do not doubt that there are some clubs in Scotland that are not all they ought to he. It is the provision of such regulations as this which gives the police easy opportunity to check excesses and abuses of the privilege which a club licence gives. I say this as a member of a club which is

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affiliated to the English Club and Institute Union. I was one of those who argued for such a clause to be inserted in the English Bill.
I think it was a tragedy that the wartime Regulation 55C, which worked extremely well, was ever repealed. Whatever noble Lords may say about club members, it is not only they who have to be considered, but those who have the responsibility of running clubs—I refer to the stewards and stewardesses. On many occasions, in working men's clubs in England (of course, I cannot speak for Scotland) stewards have said to me, "I have one of the most difficult of jobs. I do not have one boss; I have a committee of twelve. They all think they are 'the boss' and they all sometimes want preferential treatment. If we had Regulation 55C I could always turn to a club member who wanted me to transgress licensing hours and say, 'This is my job. I do not want to risk my good name and association with the Club and Institute movement'." Regulation 55C went, and of course with it went protection for the steward or stewardess against club members, or committee-men in particular, who wish, I will not say to break the law, but badly to bend it. The club which is well run has nothing to fear. If the good class hotel is open to police inspection, if the good class pub is open to police inspection, what has the club to fear or to hide?
I know from my own experience of the British Club and Institute Union that the affiliated clubs are extremely well run. Although they are opposed to this proposal—I think they are perhaps a little jealous of the fact that they have some privilege over others—I think everybody ought to be on the same level. There is a feeling among some folk that the licensed trade is—I was going to say an evil trade. They think that the result of drinking is evil to the community. Then let us have everybody, the pub and the club, on the same level. Where there may be abuse the police would have the right to go in and check that abuse. If that is done there will not be, as there sometimes now is, whispering behind the scenes about the goings on at this or that club, whether it be a working men's, a Conservative or a golf club. I am in favour of Clause 16, and if
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it comes to a Division I shall support the Government.
LORD AUCKLAND: During the course of the Second Reading debate on this Bill I gave qualified support to this clause, but having re-read the clause, and having heard the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, I find myself utterly convinced that it is a bad clause. Clause 16 empowers a constable to enter club premises. That may mean a young policeman of nineteen or twenty who has had little experience of life in general, and certainly little experience of clubs. If the clause were worded so that policemen of the rank of inspector or above were allowed to enter in extenuating circumstances, then there might be some reason for supporting this Amendment.
The other point I should like to make is that most of these clubs have as members people from all classes of society. I am a member of a men's club in Epsom, where I live, the members of which comprise people ranging from managing directors to jockeys. It is a well-conducted club; everybody is extremely friendly, and I am quite certain that the last thing that the steward would want would be police interference. My noble friend Lord Colville of Culross has made a most convincing case for his Amendment, and I, for one, will support it.
LORD FERRIER: Had it not been for the Minister of State's saying that he would perhaps reconsider this clause, and would be interested to hear what the Committee have to say on the matter, I should not have taken up your Lordships' time. But I feel without in any way disagreeing with the noble Viscount in what he or those who have supported him have said, that the clause as it stands is not a good clause at all. I agree, as I said not only in Second Reading but on Tuesday last, that one of the effects of this Bill may be a more rapid increase in the number of clubs which are designed, as one of your Lordships said, to operate as third-class clubs, loosely got together, for drinking only. I can understand the wish of the Government to have some power in regard to their compliance with the law. It occurs to me that it might help if the Government were to consider another method of approaching

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the matter—namely, to give the police powers to enter clubs, whatever they may be (whether golf, residential or drinking clubs) during licensed hours or, say, half an hour either side.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I find myself in the rather unusual situation of being in agreement with the noble Lord opposite. I really think that, as he said, no properly constituted club has anything whatsoever to fear. I feel that the police to-day have an increasingly hard time to maintain order, and I personally am in favour of assisting them in all possible ways. I once had the misfortune to be stationed in Glasgow, at the extremely unpleasant barracks called Maryhill. I have some unpleasant recollections of some of the clubs round that area. Perhaps things have changed since then. But I cannot understand the great objection to this clause. I quite agree that if any St. James's Street clubs were entered by the police we should be naturally much annoyed; but the police have no reason to enter those clubs. In these matters the police are most tactful. They enter a club only if they have good reason to suppose that there is something going on that ought not to be going on. Therefore, I cannot support this Amendment.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: Might I ask my noble friend whether he would apply that argument to England?
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: Unfortunately, I came in after by noble friend's argument was deployed. Obviously, the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, is going to explain to us—perhaps he has already—why we do not apply it in England. Obviously, the Government have a good reason for its not being applied in England.
LORD LINDGREN: The reason why it is not applied in England is pretty obvious: it is pressure, particularly from the political clubs who wish to avoid the possibility of police inspection. It is only in surrender to the pressure of the political clubs in England that this clause is not in the English Bill.
LORD HUGHES: I indicated on Second Reading that this was one part of the Bill in regard to which I should find myself in agreement with the Government. The Minister has been supported
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so little on his own side of the House, that I am not at all sure that he will find it helpful to have a small measure of support from myself on this side of the House, but I will try to justify this support, on perhaps sounder grounds than the noble Lord who has just sat down, because he has been reinforced merely by the simple faith that, if the Government do it, then it must be right. I do not have that consolation. But I should also like to say that he must agree that he was much luckier than I was when he was in Maryhill Barracks. My first six weeks in the Army were spent there, and I can assure him that during that period they never gave me any time to find out if there were any clubs in Glasgow. But perhaps I was fortunate in that respect.
Speaking seriously, my Lords, I do not think that the clause merits all the attacks which it has received from noble Lords opposite. It has been made quite clear—and I think it could not have been put better than it was put by Lord Strathclyde and by Lord Balfour of Inchrye—that there are different categories of clubs and some of these do not require any supervision or police intervention of this kind. On Tuesday, the Minister of State said that he did not think this Bill would result in an increase in the number of clubs which were got together merely for the purpose of providing drinking facilities. With that point of view the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, has again disagreed, and I am afraid that it is my opinion that in the long run, if the Bill goes through in its present form, Lord Ferrier is more likely to be right in this matter than is Lord Craigton. If that proves to be the case, then, obviously, there will be a need for greater powers than the police have under the status quo, because it is almost impossible to bring an unsatisfactory situation to an end with the procedure that must be followed at the present time.
It may be that Clause 16, as it stands, is not necessarily the right answer to that situation, and I should be very much surprised if, when the Minister replies, he does not feel himself obliged to say that he will have another look at this matter. If he does not, then he is going to run the risk of having nothing at all to consider. But I think it would be equally wrong to take the clause out

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without being prepared to put something else in its place. As we stand this afternoon, there is no suggestion of amending the present law to make it satisfactory, either for the situation which exists at the present time in relation to some of these so-called social clubs, or for the situation which may arise if this Bill becomes law. If nothing is in the Bill, then it will undoubtedly not be satisfactory for Scotland.
While I wish to support the Minister on this matter, I obviously cannot give him completely unqualified support, because I disagree fundamentally with many of the reasons for which he does particular things, even though I arrive at the same destination. Certainly, I cannot work it out on the basis that "England is England and Scotland is Scotland", or that the Guest Committee recommended it or did not recommend it. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, earlier in the day, I do not know how he can possibly remember where he is in the Guest Committee's Report, because he keeps turning somersaults on it, at one moment accepting what the Committee are recommending and the next opposing what the Committee are recommending. If I cannot commend him for anything else, I can certainly commend him for a most excellent memory.
But in this case I think the answer lies in altogether another clause in the Bill. If the Minister followed the main recommendations of the Guest Committee regarding public houses, then the clubs need have no future terrors for the Government in Scotland. Similarly with Amendments which the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, is moving later on, the main problem arises from a continuation of the Government's policy of refusing to open the public houses on Sundays. I do not know yet what I intend to do at the next stage, but it may be that I will furnish your Lordships with a solution to this problem and the other one by moving either the same Amendment as I moved on Tuesday, or something else which accepts—if I may quote, without risk of retort, the noble Viscount, Lord Stuart of Findhorn—that this would be a case where the right thing is that England is England and Scotland is Scotland, yet the twain must meet.
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I certainly hope that the Minister does not succumb at this stage to the very considerable pressure which has been put upon him by those whom he is normally accustomed to describe as his noble friends, even though they are being quite unfriendly in their support to-day. But if he does feel constrained to do something about it, he should not go further than a promise to examine the situation, to find out whether he can accomplish the necessary object in relation to the social or drinking clubs in another way. But if this is the only way in which he can control these other undesirable aspects, then he ought in the last analysis to stick to Clause 16 as it stands. It certainly is better than the present completely unsatisfactory situation.
LORD CRAIGTON: My Lords, I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord who has just sat down. In fact, in this matter I am grateful for support from any quarter at all. But it has been a valuable debate, and I wrote in my notes before standing up that I appreciated that this was a question on which strong views were held. I think that would be not overstressing the case. Before I make a general reply, I should like to deal with two points. Why it is that my noble friend Lord Stuart of Findhorn always raises these points, I do not know. He said that he doubted whether the police would welcome this power. I do not know what grounds my noble friend has for making that suggestion, because I understand that before the Guest Committee the police expressed their strong dissatisfaction about the present position, under which their only power of entry into a badly run club is by a warrant, with all the difficulties that that involves. One other point made by my noble friend Lord Stuart of Findhorn was that in a club the members owned the drinks and so on, and the club was virtually the members' home. He was wrong, because in a proprietary club the members do not own the drinks and, in any club, whether it is their property or not, they are controlled as to the hours in which they can drink. The club is not, in that respect, accommodation which is akin to their home, as he implied.
Surely your Lordships must feel, as the Government feel, that, in the face of the very substantial evidence that the

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present situation is unsatisfactory, we should all be wrong to make no effort at all to ensure that the enforcement of the law was made more effective. I am sure that my noble friends would go with me as far as that. We realise that there is substantial opposition to the clause as it stands. My noble friend Lord Ferrier made some constructive suggestions which should be carefully considered. I must say to my other noble friends that I have seldom listened to a debate in which noble Lords had so few constructive suggestions to make, except that they just did not like the clause and thought it ought to be different. But what we should really be trying to think of for Scotland is how clubs ought to be controlled.
Your Lordships will be glad to know that we have given further consideration to this difficult question. What I would ask of your Lordships is not to resolve the question to-day, but to give the Government time for further study. If the noble Viscount will withdraw his Amendment, I will undertake that we will re-open the whole question and will have discussions with the chief constables and other interested persons. As your Lordships will understand, I can make no promises. There is clearly no easy solution, but if a way out can be found we will put clown Amendments on Report, when your Lordships will still be free, of course, as you are to-day, to take whatever action you think fit.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I think your Lordships have succeeded in mollifying my noble friend to a most admirable degree. The cardinal point that has arisen from your Lordships' debate, I think, is the admission by the noble Lord Lord Hughes, that there are certain clubs which do not require supervision, and I beg the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, to make that the cornerstone of his considerations when he comes to go further into this matter. I am delighted that he has said he will do so, and I shall look forward with great pleasure to seeing what the results of these deliberations may be. If the noble Lord can find some way of reducing at any rate the degree of this interference, then I think your Lordships may well be satisfied. It is not that any of your Lordships would doubt the tact and the good manners of the
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police in Scotland; nor that you would wish evasion to go undetected or unpunished. None the less, there is a widespread fear at the moment that this clause as it stands would be an unjustified interference. I will therefore accede to the noble Lord's suggestion and will withdraw this Amendment, at any rate at this stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 16 agreed to.
5.52 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS moved, after Clause 16, to insert the following new clause:
Amendment of s. 171 of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1959
"In section one hundred and seventy-one of the principal Act (which provides for the procedure on application for grant or renewal of certificate of registration of a club), at the end of subsection (1), there shall be inserted the words ' and the registrar shall require the applicant to advertise a notice giving concise particulars of the application in two newspapers circulating in the locality of the club. The advertisement so published shall contain the information required by Part I of the Fourth Schedule to the principal Act, and shall be inserted on at least two occasions, the last being at least ten days before the grant or hearing by the sheriff of the application'."
The noble Viscount said: There seems to me to be a gap, yet another gap, in the law regarding clubs and the restraints that are to be put upon them. Section 171 of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1959, allows certain people to object to the granting or the renewal of a certificate of registration of a club. Among the people who can object are the chief constable, the town council or the district council. Further, there is provision by which the procurator fiscal can object; and so can any person owning or occupying premises in the neighbourhood of the premises occupied by the club. This is in line with the provisions by which people can abject to the issue of a public house licence. The gap, however, exists in this respect. Whereas the chief constable, the town council or the district council are by statutory requirement notified of the application for the grant or renewal of a certificate, the person who occupies adjoining property is not; and, so far as I know, there is no method by which he can find out that a club is going to be opened up next door to him or within whatever the limit is to the term "adjoining property".
It may very well be that he is the person who has the best possible grounds for objecting to the opening up of a club. This is not a Scottish case, but I remember that when I lived in South Kensington a club opened up not very far away. I wished then that I had become aware in time of the fact that this was going to occur, because I would have objected very strongly, as I did afterwards.
My Amendment is an attempt, at any rate, even if it is technically inaccurate, to provide that the person who occupies adjoining premises will have at least some chance of finding out that a certificate is being applied for, because if this Amendment were to be accepted the application would have to be advertised in the newspapers at a certain stated time before the application was made. This, I believe, would give the adjoining owner a chance to make an objection in the proper way, and so to safeguard his rights and perhaps the peace and quiet of his house. I therefore beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 16 insert the said new clause.—(Viscount Colville of Culross.]
LORD CRAIGTON: On its merits, this Amendment has something to be said for it, but not very much. The provisions which it amends are of long standing, dating originally from 1903 and last revised in 1913; so this could not be said to be a matter of urgency. It is true that under the 1959 Act only the chief constable and the local authority are informed by the sheriff clerk of the application, so that, as the noble Viscount has said, without newspaper advertisement, anyone owning property in the neighbourhood who is entitled to object at the time of the application may not learn of the application in time.
But under Section 175 of the Act a competent objector can raise an objection at any time, and if it is found proved, then the sheriff has discretion to cancel the club's registration. So, on its merits, this Amendment would do no more than give the potential objecting householder the opportunity to object a little sooner to the first application. Application for renewal would not be affected, as the objector, with or without this Amendment, would not have to wait for the renewal date before lodging his
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objection. The noble Viscount follows me so far?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Yes.
LORD CRAIGTON: But there is another very valid reason for asking your Lordships not to accept this Amendment. This is not a Bill about Scottish club registration law, which has at least stood the test for a very long time and which cannot be said to be in urgent need of revision. This is a Bill, much overdue, mainly to deal with Sunday drinking and permitted hours. It does not attempt any general revision of the licensing law, and it would be inappropriate to do that while the Guest Committee are still sitting. Nevertheless, as it stands, even though it is narrow, the Bill is substantial and controversial. Whatever individual views may be on some aspects of the Bill—and we had them on the previous Amendment—I think we all want to see the Bill on the Statute Book.
But parliament has other important Scottish legislation to consider, which is starting on its journey in another place. We in the Government could have widened the scope of this Bill, but we exercised a self-denying ordinance in order to keep the Bill short, limiting its contents to matters of urgency. I would humbly ask your Lordships to help us by not opening up a new avenue of discussion by approving this Amendment—an Amendment which, in some form or another, could have been made at any time in the last 50 years. On those grounds, and not because the point made is not a valid one, I would beg the noble Viscount to see his way to withdrawing his Amendment.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: If it has not been made at any time in the last 50 years, it has at least been made now. I wonder whether my noble friend could tell me whether he has some sort of list in his Department on which he puts down this sort of point, to be taken into account when he comes to drafting the next Licensing (Scotland) Bill on a wider basis. If this point can be registered, at any rate, as being something that should be looked at, and if it may perhaps see the light of day in later legislation, then I think the desired end might have been achieved.
LORD CRAIGTON: As my noble friend Lord Strathclyde knows, there are lists and lists of points such as this awaiting a suitable legislative vehicle, and I can assure the noble Viscount that this point also will go on the appropriate list.
LORD HUGHES: And if it takes its appropriate place on the list, it may well be 50 years before it is the noble Viscount's turn.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: If Her Majesty's Government think it is really going to be a clog in the works, 1 have no option but to beg leave to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.0 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: This is a small point, but one, I think, really covered by the scope of the Bill. We have already had discussions in your Lordships' Committee about the age at which people ought to be allowed to take liquor away from a shop to which they have been sent as messengers to buy it. My noble friend Lord Craigton was convinced that 18 was the minimum age at which they should be allowed to do this. Such being the case, it astonishes me that there is still no provision in the law of Scotland which prevents anyone under the age of 18 from serving in a bar, or at any rate in a club where intoxicating liquor is sold. Of course, anyone under the age of 18 cannot do so in a public house, yet there is no restriction of this nature at all in a club, and it was in order to try to fill this gap that I put down this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 16 insert the following new clause:
Persons under eighteen not to be employed in registered clubs
(". The provisions of section one hundred and forty-four of the principal Act (which provides that persons under eighteen shall not be employed in bars or licensed canteens) shall, subject to any necessary modifications, apply and have effect as if registered clubs had been included therein.")—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
LORD CRAIGTON: I am afraid that I must start by telling my noble friend that I am advised that his Amendment,
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as it stands, is ambiguous, and on that ground alone cannot be accepted. Section 144 of the principal Act makes it illegal to employ persons under 18—and this is the provision which he seeks to amend—in the bar of licensed premises (that is, in part of the premises) or in a canteen (that is, the whole premises). It is not clear from the Amendment whether the illegality would consist in the employment of an under-eighteen in the club premises as a whole, or in only the part of the club where drinks are served. As the noble Viscount refers to registered clubs and not to the premises of registered clubs, the assumption is that his Amendment will probably make it an offence for any club to employ a person under 18. That rules out golf clubs with caddies and green-keeping staff under 18 years of age, and young gardeners, where the club has grounds. If it is only on the club premises that under-eighteens are not to be employed, that still rules out pages and boots. If the Amendment seeks to prevent under-eighteens from serving drinks, it is virtually impossible satisfactorily to define that part of the club where drinks could not be served by under-eighteens.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: They could not be served anywhere.
LORD CRAIGTON: Let me finish. We are by no means unsympathetic to the intention behind this Amendment, and it may be possible to find a form of words which simply prohibits persons under 18 from being employed for supplying and serving drinks in clubs. If my noble friend will withdraw his Amendment, I make no promise, but I will look most carefully at this matter before the next stage.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I am very much obliged to my noble friend. That seems to me entirely satisfactory, and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 17 agreed to.
6.3 p.m.
LORD FERRIER LORD FERRIER moved, after Clause 17, to insert the following new clause:
Restriction on carrying exciseable liquor in public service vehicles and private hire motor buses
". If any person carries or causes or permits to be carried on any public service vehicle

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used as a contract carriage or on any private hire motor vehicle chartered for a private party exciseable liquor for consumption by the passengers (except such as may be carried by individual passengers for their private requirements) shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction thereof be liable to a fine not exceeding twenty-five pounds and in the case of a second or subsequent conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds."
The noble Lord said: The Sunday "boozing bus party" of "bôna-fide" travellers is one feature of the way of life in Scotland to-day which is a disgrace. I will not repeat what I said on Second Reading, but I will go on to say that, as I know your Lordships are aware, this objectionable practice springs from the present state of the law, which this Bill is designed to alter. The Guest Committee referred to this evil in their Report, in Paragraphs 42 to 46. They did so in restrained terms, but I imagine I am not alone in the experiences which I have had, one of which I will describe.
I was returning to St. Andrews on a lovely summer afternoon by car with my wife and youngest daughter, who was then a schoolgirl, and on a quiet country road we came upon two buses standing by the roadside surrounded by the passengers, who were in various stages of intoxication. One was being sick in a ditch, and two others were relieving themselves otherwise on the road. Others were reeling about with bottles in their hands. The liquor was coming from cases in the open boot of the vehicle. Now, this sort of thing happens all over Scotland, despite what the Guest Committee said. They said "in various parts of Scotland", but it happens all too widely in Scotland on summer Sundays. It is an offence to all decent people, besides, of course, being an offence in law—but I shall refer to that aspect later. As the Guest Committee reported, it has become a "firm habit"—they are the two words I would quote from the Report; but it is a regular practice, call it what you will. A police sergeant once said a surprising thing to me when I asked him how things were going. He said: "Oh, we are getting ready for the drunken bus season ", which was his description of the summer.
Such conduct as I have described admittedly is disorderly, but it occurs
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in remote places and at irregular times, so that the police cannot be expected to protect the public or to carry out their task of bringing disorderly scenes to a stop. In any case, as I shall show, on Sundays they are busily engaged in the villages, burghs, and country towns, dealing with the same problem of excessive drinking in the high streets. Recognising this position, the Guest Committee went on to say, in paragraph 46 of their Report:
"It seems to us, however, that it would be practicable, and certainly desirable, to devise measures which … would nevertheless check the grosser abuses which occur on Sundays and to a lesser extent on week-days. With that object in view we recommend that it should be an offence to consume liquor on any public service vehicle: and that it should be an offence for the proprietor knowingly or by the hand of his servant to carry liquor in quantity, for example in crates, in a public service vehicle used as a contract carriage."
This Bill, thank goodness, abolishes the "bôna fide traveller", but this very fact—and the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, made this point, not only to-day but on Tuesday and on Second Reading—may increase the tendency to carry liquor in buses.
My Amendment, which I may say has been drafted on legal advice by the Scottish Licensed Trade Association, is an honest attempt to go part of the way to meet these difficulties. I say "part of the way", and I emphasise "part of the way" because it expressly accepts the right of the individual to carry his own refreshment on him, even as his baggage. I think it is notorious that part of a Scotsman's luggage often is corked. Let us accept that. But this sort of thing needs careful organisation. What I mean is this. For a party to set off in a bus with their pockets full of bottles, or with suitcases or haversacks packed with bottles, means organisation at the start. It is not easy to arrange, because one must remember that many of these buses pick up passengers from door to door and from road-end to road-end.
What is more, it is an open secret—indeed, it is obvious—that the organisers of bus parties arrange for liquor for the trip to be loaded in cases in the bus, when it can either be retailed (again an offence), or the cost is included in the cost of the ticket which is purchased in advance; and this, though it may technically not bring about the

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offence of retailing liquor, means to a Scotsman that every drop has to be drunk before he gets back, if it has been paid for.
As drafted, my Amendment would not interfere with the carriage of liquor on regular bus services, or the like, about which the Guest Committee were a little ambiguous in their Report. The words relating to the vehicles affected in the Amendment (which go further than those used by the Guest Committee) specifically say:
"any public service vehicle used as a contract carriage or on any private hire motor vehicle chartered for a private party."
These are important words, and I would repeat that they omit the question of the stage carriage.
I am tempted to describe another incident which occurred to me which makes a point of what I have to say. I was driving to Edinburgh one Sunday through the town near which I live, and as I drove up the High Street the Edinburgh bus left the town in front of me, just as a figure, I will not say staggered, but very nearly staggered, out of a public house—this was about 6 or 7 o'clock. Obviously the man was desolated because he had missed the bus. I had an elderly retainer in the back of the car and she was horrified when I stopped and said to the man, Missed the bus? Do you want a lift? ". "Where are you going?", he said. "Edinburgh", I replied. "That will do", he said. He got in and I drove off.
About a quarter-of-an-hour later, having sort of steadied himself, he began to pour out torrents of thanks for what I had done. I asked him where he lived, and he named a place which was some thirty miles in the opposite direction. "You are going the wrong way", I told him. He said, "I know that, but I would do anything to get away from there". This man had got picked up in this bus business and found it was really a booze. He did not like it, but already had had far too much to drink. He admitted to me, "If you had not picked me up I would have been back there and under the counter. I want to get back to the wife and family".
I recite this story because there is no doubt that we have an obligation here to do what we can to prevent temptation
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of this nature from coming in the way of men who fall easily for this sort of thing. They are on the bus and they are stuck there because it is their only way of getting home; and if they are carrying liquor, for which they have already paid, the bus is not going back until every bottle is empty.
May I say at this stage that I was speaking to my noble friend, Lady Elliot of Harwood, yesterday, and she asked me specifically to say that had she been able to be here she would strongly have supported my Amendment, feeling, as she does and as I and other noble Lords do, anxious to support any effort which can be made to limit this disgusting practice. It is not only the countryside that has these troubles to face; villages and county boroughs have their High Streets rendered the scene of disgraceful spectacles regularly every Sunday. The town with which I am associated has issued a by-law whereby all hired buses must be out of borough limits by 10 p.m. This is the best they can do to prevent decent people in the town from the hideous experiences which take place on Sunday evenings.
Now it is hoped that the closing of public houses will solve this problem, but the bus parties may still be a menace. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, will agree with me when I say that we cannot be too sure about bus parties, but your Lordships will see that I have another Amendment to move with the idea of protecting licensed hotels from the sort of thing which the Guest Committee described. One hopes that matters will be better eventually under the new Act, but I have met no one, especially in authority, who does not support this Amendment. I feel sure that the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, as an ex-Provost will bear me out. I have spoken with another well-known ex-Provost, and, of course, with the Provost of the burgh near my home. He is emphatically in favour of this Amendment. If the wording of the Amendment is defective, as it may be, it really should not be beyond the power of the Parliamentary draftsmen to alter it to give effect at least to the intention which lies behind it.
As I said before, I am not an abstainer—far from it—and I see no objection to an individual decently

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taking his dram or his glass any day of the week. But, as I said on Tuesday, I visualise an increase in the number of clubs, especially in the cities, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, said on Tuesday in his excellent, if unavailing, speech, he feels the same. I see no reason why the man who wants his drink on a Sunday should not get it, and if he is a Scotsman he thinks about it ahead and provides for his own refreshment and that of his family without having to be landed in the position of being more or less locked in with large supplies of liquor. The clubs which may spring up may add to the complications, but let us hope they do not. However, this revolting practice of setting off Sunday after Sunday on a deliberate booze is detested by the bulk of the people of Scotland, especially the womenfolk, and, with due respect to the views of the noble Viscount, Lord Stuart of Find-horn, many of us feel that in not including a clause of this sort in the Bill the Government are departing from a specific recommendation of the Guest Committee. I appeal to the Government to accept this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 17 insert the said new Clause.—(Lord Ferrier.)
LORD HUGHES: This is a case where I cannot support the Minister. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, has put forward an unanswerable case on this Amendment. I believe it would he correct to say that on Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, said that the reason why the Government had not accepted the Guest Committee's recommendation was because of the difficulty of drafting a suitable clause to cover the matter. I can well accept that it is beyond the wit even of Parliamentary draftsmen to bring forward a clause which will accomplish perfection in this matter, and it may well be that in the clause suggested by the noble Lord there will be many ways in which people will be able to go about the country and take drink with them. I am afraid that that will probably be the case. But this clause will undoubtedly make it more difficult for many of these organised drinking parties. It will make it so inconvenient for many of the organisers that they will not attempt it.
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I cannot believe that the people who go on these drinking parties do so just because they want to drink away from home. They go because it is a way in which it is possible for them to get drink on a Sunday which they cannot otherwise get, and they can easily drink two or three pints, or two or three gallons, by doing it this way. But if they have to make their own arrangements of buying individually their supplies for Sunday in advance, then I am firmly persuaded that they will not go away in a bus carrying the stuff with them in order to drink it; they will drink it somewhere else where they are less likely to be a nuisance and a danger to other people.
I think this is a case where the Minister has no justification for declining to accept the Amendment. I say that, accepting the fact that he is perfectly sincere when he says that it is only drafting difficulties that have compelled the Government not to accept it. I do not believe the Government or their advisers are so completely incapable of getting something in this matter, and I think the best way of effecting an improvement in the present position is to insert this clause in the Bill as it stands. If it is not as effective as those of us who are supporting it think it will be, then I am fairly certain that between now and the Report stage the Parliamentary draftsman will be able to devise a form of words which, while not achieving perfection, will at least cure some of the evils. This is one of the real blots on Scottish licensing laws, and we shall be completely failing in our duty to Scotland if we permit this Bill to leave this House without something in it to reduce, if not abolish, this evil of what is nothing less than perambulating public houses on Sunday.
6.22 p.m.
LORD CRAIGTON: My Lords, the Government are in full sympathy with my noble friend's case and with the intention of the recommendations of the Guest Committee about liquor in buses. Your Lordships will remember that on Second Reading I explained the difficulties of enforcement, and that rowdy bus parties, to which my noble friend referred, were often in breach of the present law. I made the point that difficulties in enforcing the law could not

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be solved by making new laws which were no easier to enforce; and I described fully the Government's difficulty in devising a form of offence which would be both understandable and acceptable to the public and not capable of easy evasion. We are grateful to my noble friend for trying to succeed where we have failed. Unfortunately, I must tell him that I have consulted my right honourable and learned friend the Lord Advocate on this clause, and it is the Lord Advocate's view—with which I must agree—that its provisions are open to serious objection. I think the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, has a sort of feeling that we are not really trying to find a solution, and that drafting difficulties can be overcome, even if we do not achieve perfection.
LORD HUGHES: If I have given that impression, then I apologise to the Minister, because I do not feel so. My charge against the Minister is that he has given up too easily.
LORD CRAIGTON: I think it is important for your Lordships to realise the point made by my noble friend in his excellent speech, that his Amendment is one which might be described as a professional effort; that is to say, it is an attempt by skilled people, who had the benefit of seeing what was said by myself and others on Second Reading, to draw up an Amendment. I think I must spend a few minutes looking carefully at the wording of this seriously produced and well-attempted Amendment.
First, there is the use of the word "carry". It is used at the start of the clause:
"If any person carries or permits to be carried …"
In what sense is it used there? And who is the person who commits the offence? In the case of the contract carriage, it seems reasonable to take it as meaning, "carriage by the bus"—that is, that the offence is committed by the bus operator or his servant, the driver, or by both. But when we come to the hired car—because the clause appears to apply to hired cars—is this reasonable? The hirer of the car has little control over the use to which a hire car is put and could hardly be held responsible for the carriage of liquor in it by the people to whom he has hired it.
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The word "carry" is used again in the words in brackets,
"(except such as may be carried by individual passengers for their private requirements)".
But again the meaning of the word is ambiguous. It may be intended to mean "carried by the person all the time he is on the bus". But, if this is the intention, it is doubtful if the drafting achieves it. A person who brings a suitcase on to a bus and places it on the rack or in the boot could possibly be held to be "carrying" the suitcase from the place where he gets on to the place where he gets off. But if "carrying" is interpreted as holding in one's hand, would it be reasonable to have a law which made the question of whether a criminal offence has or has not been committed turn on whether the passenger keeps his bag of bottles on his lap or gets tired and puts them on the floor?
But the Government's main difficulty relates to the vagueness of the words "private requirements" in the bracketed phrase. All drink is, in one sense, for some individual's "private requirements", since the only useful end to it is down somebody's "hatch". The law rightly requires a high standard of evidence for a conviction, and, if a passenger claimed that the liquor found on board the bus was for his "private requirements", it would be up to the prosecution to prove that it was not. It does not seem to my right honourable friend the Lord Advocate that the prosecution could be expected to do this. It is notorious that some people's "private requirements" of alcohol are much greater than others. Furthermore, is it not indeed the case that carriage for the "private requirements" of passengers—for consumption by the passengers during the bus outing—is exactly the activity which the Government and your Lordships' House are anxious to restrain? Carriage for some other purpose—to present a bottle to auntie at the end of the journey—would hardly give grounds for complaint.
It may be suggested that the words
"carried by individual passengers for their private requirements"
would at least prevent the carriage of crates. If so, this would be easy to evade by "breaking bulk" and distributing the bottles around the passengers, perhaps before they entered the bus. But

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I am advised that it is not entirely clear—bearing in mind the difficulty about the meaning of the word "carry"—whether the phrase would prevent the carriage of crates, which I understand from my noble friend it is intended to do. If it is the case that it is not confined to carriage on the passenger's person or lap, there is nothing to prevent individual passengers, as a matter of convenience, putting the liquor provided for the "private requirements" of each into one or more crates for the purpose of carriage on the bus.
Then, consider the position of the bus operator and his driver. First, how are they to find out whether the passenger has liquor in the luggage he has brought on the bus? They could hardly insist on a search, and the liquor might be in a suitcase. And secondly, should an ordinary bus driver seeking to avoid criminal prosecution be asked to interpret such a provision, and to convince a protesting passenger that his interpretation is correct? And is it right that the operator should be at risk of prosecution if his driver interprets it wrongly?
These are, I am sorry to say, destructive criticisms; but they are no more destructive than were our own criticisms of the many similar drafting efforts of the Department, the draftsman and the Ministers concerned. I have dealt with this at some length, because I want my noble friend to be satisfied that his proposals would really not be effective, and I do not want him to feel that his much appreciated effort is being lightly cast aside. In view of what I have said, I hope my noble friend will agree to withdraw his Amendment, and I can assure him, and other noble Lords, that we shall continue to seek the solution that we should both like to find.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLLIn some ways I hope my noble friend does not withdraw his Amendment. I fully understand the difficulties put forward by my noble friend Lord Craigton, but in this day and age so many people are inclined to regard your Lordships' House as being out of touch with the 1960's, that if we make no attempt at all in this Bill to deal with what is acknowledged to be the most scandalous facet of drink in Scotland I think people will say we are completely "ostrich-like"
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and have no idea at all what happens in the world around us. Therefore, I feel it is better to have something in the Bill, even if it is defective and taken out at another stage and something else is put in, rather than to have nothing at all. At least it will get publicity for this problem, and it will show that we have made an effort to solve it.
LORD CRAIGTON: May I say this before my noble friend decides? If your Lordships were to put into a Bill an Amendment which could have the criticism brought upon it which has been mentioned, I do not know whether that would add high repute to your Lordships' House.
LORD FERRIER: While thanking the noble Duke for his support, I should like to point out that he said something which I had omitted to say, perhaps because I tried to conceal from your Lordships my strong feeling that this is a highly important matter to which this Committee must give grave attention before they pass it on. The noble Lord the Minister for State said that the Amendment which I have proposed could not be effective. But I have shown that the existing law is not effective. We all know of the disorderly conduct which occurs all over Scotland every Sunday, and the law is not effective. I, for one, would much rather see this Amendment in the Bill, and as much success achieved with it as is achieved with the existing law against disorderly conduct.
I am sorry that I am not impressed at all by the legal reasons advanced by the Minister of State. I say so for several reasons. The noble Lord, Lord Hughes, has supported what I said, that a little consideration could adjust some of the difficulties. Take, for instance, what my noble friend Lord Craigton said about the word "carried". All right, let us use the words "loaded upon". Surely the Parliamentary draftsmen can get over that one. I can understand the criticism of the private hire vehicle bringing within its scope the smaller vehicle. All right, let us call it "a private hire vehicle with more than six seats" or something like that. But let us make some effort to put this thing right. I also feel that some of the pundits who have got down to providing the Minister's brief are insulting the sheriffs sitting in their courts.

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Is the suggestion that the officers of the law in Scotland are not competent sensibly to interpret a clause such as I propose? Really, it is quite wrong that the suggestion should be made that the police would bring before a sheriff an individual or individuals against whom there was a very flimsy case and, if it were a good one, that the sheriff would dismiss it.
I really do not know quite what to do in regard to my Amendment, because if I press it I shall not be able to ask the noble Lord to spend the Christmas Recess in sounding the strength of opinion in Scotland on this matter: and not only the strength of opinion among the people, chiefly the womenfolk, but also that among the police and sheriffs. I believe it would be an absolute eye-opener. I do not feel that I can withdraw my Amendment.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: I wonder whether I could plead with my noble friend Lord Ferrier in this matter? Everyone is agreed that this is a scandalous state of affairs. The Minister knows full well that it is, and he has said so. But I should not like to lose the opportunity of putting something into the Bill. It might be something of a much more simple nature; it might not be completely watertight, but at any rate it might be a considerable deterrent. The Minister has given his undertaking that he will look at it again, and that if he can possibly find a way round, it he will do something about it. If my noble friend does not withdraw the Amendment and the Committee divide on it, and it so happens that he is defeated, that is the end of the matter; whereas otherwise we have an opportunity for further thought and consideration and it may be that something will come of that. I would therefore press my noble friend to consider again whether he should not withdraw his Amendment.
LORD HUGHES: I should like to say that I shall not agree to this being withdrawn. I think to do so would defeat the whole object. The only thing which will force some possibility of consideration is a form of words going into the Bill which will not be acceptable to the Government and so place on them the onus of finding some alternative form of words. I think the Minister has made
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it perfectly clear that, as at presently advised, he can see no prospect of evolving, in his own Department, a form of words which will be satisfactory. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, that he ought not to withdraw the Amendment, and that he should endeavour to get the Committee to insert it in the Bill to-night and place firmly on the Government the onus of improving it, if that is possible.
LORD CRAIGTON: Just for the record, I want to tell the noble Lord. Lord Hughes, what I said. I said that I can assure your Lordships (or words to that effect) that we will continue to seek a solution which we should both like to find.
LORD HUGHES: That is so, but one must recognise the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, has told us that there is no possibility of his succeeding in finding a form of words. I should say that he has left us in no doubt that he cannot find a form of words.
LORD CRAIGTON: "Cannot yet" is right; and "very difficult" is right; but we have not given up trying.
LORD HUGHES:I think you should be given this very strong incentive to make a real effort.
LORD FERRIER: I cannot quite make out what the Minister has in mind. I feel that it is proper to take most seriously the advice which has been given to me by my noble friend Lord Strathclyde. But can the Minister say whether he is going to try to introduce a measure in this Bill which will limit this, or is he going to give it up? I cannot get that clear.
LORD CRAIGTON: Even if I were to say that I was going to give it up, this Bill has to go through another place. We all know that this is a recommendation of the Guest Report, and the same pressure will be brought on Ministers in another place as is now brought on me. I can give my noble friend an assurance, behind my own assurance: that the Government will and must, by mere Parliamentary pressure, continue to try to find some way of implementing in some respects what the Guest Committee wanted, what we want, and what Scotland wants.
LORD FERRIER: I feel that the proper course, despite the assistance I have received from the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, which I greatly value, would be to say to the Minister that if something is not put in the Bill, then I shall raise the matter again at a later stage. With that clear declaration, and with thanks to the noble Lords who have supported me in this, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD HUGHES: Before agreeing to that, can I have the firm assurance from the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, that if an Amendment along these lines is not tabled at the next stage by the Government he will reintroduce this Amendment, or an Amendment in a similar form of words so that we shall have an opportunity in this House of inserting something in the Bill, whether the Government admit success or failure in their own efforts?
LORD FERRIER: Certainly. I have the greatest pleasure in giving that implicit undertaking, provided I am able to be here on my feet.
LORD HUGHES: On that, with great reluctance, I will not object to the withdrawal of the Amendment at this stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 18 agreed to.
6.40 p.m.
LORD FERRIER LORD FERRIER moved, after Clause 18, to insert the following new clause:
Amendment of s. 151 of principal Act.
". Section one hundred and fifty-one of the principal Act (under which it is an offence for any person to attempt to enter a public house while in a state of intoxication) shall apply also to a person attempting to enter any licensed premises (not being premises where he is residing), and any person who after the coming into force of this section contravenes the said section one hundred and fifty-one shall be liable to a fine not exceeding ten pounds (instead of the fine not exceeding forty shillings provided for in that section)."
The noble Lord said: I will be as brief as I can be, as there is very little to say.
LORD CRAIGTON: May I suggest we discuss this with Amendment No. 47, which is consequential?
LORD FERRIER: It happens that in studying the Bill I came upon this particular position under Section 151 of the principal Act whereby, as your Lordships
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are aware, the police have power to prevent an intoxicated person from entering a public house. Now no public houses are going to be open on a Sunday, but the police have not the power to prevent an intoxicated person from entering a licensed hotel. The general object of having the clause is that it will strengthen the powers of the police in dealing with disorderly conduct on the part of persons under the influence of drink, and in particular it will make it an offence for bus parties who may be the worse for drink to stop at hotels, and will also be a contribution to curtailing excessive drinking on Sundays.
I will not repeat what I said on Second Reading when I drew attention to this lacuna in the new Bill, but I will say that, at that time, I said that powers should be given to the police to interfere with a drunken person who was entering a club. My noble friend on the Front Bench has satisfied me, in consultation, that that would be quite wrong for various reasons; and, indeed, it would be wrong to prevent a person in such a condition from entering the licensed hotel in which he had his residence. To that end, I feel, and I hope your Lordships will agree, that the feelings of this House are well met by the Amendment as it stands. Further, it is well known that fines paid under many of these Acts to-day in terms of the present value of money are derisory, and it is to that end that I have suggested that a maximum fine for an offence of this nature should be raised from 40s. to £10. I beg to move.
Amendment moved⅀
After Clause 18, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Ferrier.)
LORD CRAIGTON: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, for moving this new clause and for his co-operation with us in drawing it up, together with the consequential Amendment to the Second Schedule. We agree with both the wording and the intention of the Amendment, and I would ask your Lordships to support it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 19 to 21 agreed to.
First Schedule [New Forms of Certificate]:
LORD CRAIGTON: I should like to move this Amendment formally. It has

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already been discussed with Amendment No. 2.
Amendment moved⅀
Page 20, line 39, leave out from ("except") to end of line 46, and insert ("as follows, that is to say—

(a) the certificate holder may sell or supply such liquor to persons taking table meals in the said premises, for consumption by such a person as an ancillary to his meal;

(b) the certificate holder may sell or supply such liquor to persons residing in the premises, for consumption by such a person or his private friend bona fide entertained by him at his own expense, and may supply such liquor to any private friends of such a person so entertained by him, for consumption by such a friend entertained as aforesaid;").—(Lord Craigton.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CRAIGTON: I beg to move this Amendment formally.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 50, leave out from ("premises") to ("for") in line 51.—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CRAIGTON': This Amendment is formal. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 1, leave out ("so entertained by him") and insert ("bona fide entertained by him at his own expense").—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Second Schedule [Amendments of the Principal Act]:
LORD CRAIGTON: This and the following ten Amendments to the Second Schedule are all Amendments to the 1959 Act. They make no innovations in the law. They amend the 1959 Act in accordance with the general principles of this Bill and apply the provisions of the existing law to the new provisions in the Bill. As I have already explained to your Lordships, the most important purpose of the Schedule is to assist those who have to operate the licensing law, by writing into the 1959 Act the effect of the alterations made to that Act by the substantive provisions of this Bill. These eleven Amendments improve the Schedule and assist towards that desirable end. Unless your Lordships wish a detailed explanation I will move them formally and ask Lord Ferrier to move
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his Amendment, No. 47, in the same way.
Amendment moved⁁
Page 22, line 38, leave out from ("certificate") to end of line 39.—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CRAIGTON: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 22, leave out from ("and") to ("or") in line 23 and insert ("for the words 'as aforesaid' there shall be substituted the words ` in pursuance of section forty-two of this Act or, as the case may be, subsection (2) of section ten of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1961,'").—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CRAIGTON: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 27, at end insert—
("(d) in subsection (5), for the words from 'section' onwards there shall be substituted the words 'and to the provisions of subsections (1) and (2) of section ten of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1961, the provisions of this Act relating to the procedure to be followed in applications for the grant and confirmation of a new certificate shall apply also in relation to applications for the provisional grant and confirmation of a certificate, and for the purposes of this subsection section forty-two of this Act shall be deemed to apply in relation to an application for the grant of a new off-sale certificate '.").—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CRAIGTON: Amendment 43 is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 4, leave out from ("held") to end of line 6 and insert?—
("(a) in subsection (1), after the word 'reconstruction', where first occurring, there shall be inserted the words 'or extension', for the words 'a hotel certificate or a public house certificate' there shall be substituted the words 'a certificate (other than an off-sale certificate)', after the word 'canteen' there shall be inserted the words '(being a reconstruction, extension or alteration which will affect a public or common part of such premises or any communication with such a part)', and after the word 'reconstruction', in the second and third places where it occurs, there shall be inserted the word 'extension';
(b) in subsection (2), after the word 'court' there shall be inserted the words 'shall not give their consent under this section to any reconstruction, extension or alteration which will materially alter the

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character of the premises in question, and', and after the word 'reconstruction' there shall be inserted the word 'extension';
(c) after subsection (3), there shall be inserted the following subsection?—
(4) For the purposes of this section—

(a) "public part" means a part open to customers who are not residents or guests of residents; and

(b) "common part" means a part open generally to all residents or to a particular class of them.'").—(Lord Craigton.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CRAIGTON: Amendment 44 removes an error. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 49, leave out ("clubs and licensed canteens") and insert ("and clubs").—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CRAIGTON: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 50, leave out from ("hours") to end of line 2 on page 25 and insert ("at the end of subsection (1) there shall be inserted the following proviso—
'Provided that this subsection shall not apply to off-sale premises, nor in the case of premises for which a hotel or a public house certificate is held, to any part of such premises which is specified in a condition inserted in such certificate by the licensing court by virtue of subsection (2) of section three of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1961.'").—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CRAIGTON: The next Amendment corrects a clerical error. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 22, leave out ("if the liquor is sold or supplied for the consumption of") and insert ("the liquor is sold or supplied for consumption by").—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD FERRIER: In moving this Amendment, I should like to fill a gap in what I said before and thank the noble Lord on the Front Bench for the endless patience he has shown in discussing this matter with me and in helping me in the drafting of some of my Amendments. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 25, at end insert—
("24. In section one hundred and fifty-one (which provides that any person attempting to
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enter a public house while in a state of intoxication shall be liable to a fine not exceeding forty shillings), in subsection (1)—

(a) for the words 'a public house' there shall be substituted the words any licensed premises (not being premises where he is residing)';

(b) for the words 'forty shilling' there shall be substituted the words 'ten pounds'.").—(Lord Ferrier.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CRAIGTON: This is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 47, at end insert—
("27. In section one hundred and eighty-nine (which contains provisions regarding the trial of offences), in paragraph (e), after the words one hundred and fifty-seven ' there shall be inserted the word ' or ', and the words ' or one hundred and sixty-six ' shall be omitted.").—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CRAIGTON: This paragraph was omitted in error. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 5, at end insert—
("(b) in subsection (2), for the words `one hundred and forty-five' there shall be substituted the words one hundred and forty-eight' and the words ' one hundred and sixty-six ' shall be omitted.").—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CRAIGTON: This is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 1, leave out from second ("premises") to ("for") in line 3.—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CRAIGTON: This is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 4, leave out ("so entertained by him") and insert ("bona fide entertained by him at his own expense").—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to. Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Third Schedule [Repeal of Enactments]:
LORD CRAIGTON: I beg to move Amendment No. 52. Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 29, column 3, at end insert—
("In section one hundred and eighty-nine, in paragraph (e), the words 'or one hundred and sixty-six'.

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In section one hundred and ninety-one, in subsection (2), the words ' one hundred and sixty-six'.")—(Lord Craigton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Third Sdhedule, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed.

  SHORTHAND WRITERS FOR COURTS MARTIAL
  SHORTHAND WRITERS FOR COURTS MARTIAL