Sitting of 6 December 1961

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  ROTHESAY BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Considered; to be read the Third time Tomorrow.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EMPLOYMENT

    Unofficial Strikes
    Mr. W. Yatesasked the Minister of Labour how many unofficial strikes were reported to his Department between 1951 and 1960 inclusive.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. John Hare): There are difficulties of definition and classification involved and I regret that information for the years before 1960 is not available. I can, however, say that in 1960 there were 2,832 strikes reported to my Department, 68 of which were definitely stated to be official.
    Mr. Yates: Is the Minister aware that the policy laid down by the Leader of the House was that Conservative action should be relevant and decisive? May I ask what has been his policy and that of his predecessors over this matter during the last ten years?
    Mr. Hare: If the hon. Gentleman is asking what is the policy towards unofficial strikes, I will tell him that the trade unions, the employers and the Government have condemned unofficial strikes as being damaging to those who take part in them, damaging to others who do not take part in them and damaging to the interests of the country as a whole.

    Building Workers, Birmingham
    Mr. V. Yatesasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware of the shortage of labour available for building municipal houses in Birmingham; and, in view of the housing authority's need for at least twice the present labour force of 2,300 men, if he will take steps to encourage more men into the building industry in Birmingham.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Alan Green): There is no shortage of unskilled building labour in Birmingham, but the area is affected by the general shortage of building craftsmen. In the long term, the supply of skilled men depends on the industry's intake of apprentices, and we have urged building industry, along with others, to seize the opportunity of the "bulge" to step up its recruitment.
    Mr. Yates: Is the Minister aware that for the past five years Birmingham has always had between 4,500 and 5,000 houses in the pipeline which could not be completed at much more than 2,000 a year, and so it will take more than twenty years even to touch the fringe of the housing problem? In view of the fact that a considerable number of these skilled craftsmen are being used in connection with the building of offices in huge blocks in the city of Birmingham and that the city is becoming a city of chain stores, will he consider with his right hon. Friends some system of priority to allow a greater number of houses to be built in Birmingham?
    Mr. Green: My right hon. Friend, of course, cannot direct labour to any particular form of building. Without destroying the freedom of many people he cannot adopt the form of priority suggested by the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Cleaver: Is the Minister aware that if the Socialist-controlled city council had not given planning permission for the redevelopment of the city there would not have been a shortage of labour? Is not this question a smokescreen to hide the failure of the Socialist-controlled city council?
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Ellis Smith.
    Mr. Yates: If the plans to which the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Mr. Cleaver) is referring—
    Hon. Members: Order.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Ellis Smith, the next Question.

    Pottery Industry (Report)
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Labour what study he has made of the recommendations in the report of the Joint Standing Committee of the Pottery Industry, a copy of which has been sent to him; what action he intends to take further to reduce the ill-effects of dust and to increase the provision of protective clothing of better design and materials; and if he will arrange for the publication of the report.
    Mr. Hare: These recommendations concerning protective clothing represent an important advance in relation to the dust hazards in the industry. They have been circulated to all firms in the industry. I propose to seek the views of the Joint Standing Committee about the preparation of a report on their work to date for publication. I shall be considering what other steps to take by which we can secure full benefit from this work.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Is the Minister aware that that reply will be greatly appreciated owing to the suffering which occurs in the area? Does he appreciate that this will contribute towards minimising that suffering?
    Mr. Hare: I greatly appreciate what the hon. Gentleman has said.
    Dr. Stross: Is the Minister aware that the British Ceramic Research Association, which is responsible for this piece of attractive and useful research, should be congratulated? Is he aware that this is not the first piece of work of this type which has been so helpful? In view of the value of this and the fact that it is shown that these fibres do not hold noxious dust, should not the Minister see that other industries, such as the foundry industry, for example, should be notified of the advantage of suitable protective clothing?
    Mr. Hare: I appreciate what the hon. Member said in the first part of that supplementary question. On the second
    1346
    part, as I indicated to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith), I am considering what other steps to take to secure the full benefit from this work.

    Pit Closures
    Mr. Masonasked the Minister of Labour if he will consult the National Coal Board to find out how many miners due to become unemployed during the phased closure scheme will be partially disabled and industrially diseased, with a view to the immediate preparation of a plan for financial and other assistance to expand the Remploy factories in coal-mining areas to absorb all miners so industrially afflicted.
    Mr. Finchasked the Minister of Labour if he will consult the National Coal Board to find out how many disabled miners are likely to become redundant as a result of mine closures; and to what extent he is prepared to expand Remploy factories to cater for their special needs.
    Mr. Wainwrightasked the Minister of Labour if he wil consult the National Coal Board to ascertain the approximate number of disabled miners who are likely to become unemployed owing to the present plan for mine closures; and if he will make immediate preparations for the building of sufficient Remploy factories in suitable areas to cater for their special needs.
    Mr. D. Griffithsasked the Minister of Labour if he has yet had consultations with the Minister of Power and the National Coal Board to ascertain how many disabled miners will be made redundant as a result of planned pit closures; and whether he will give consideration to financing Remploy for further expansion to employ them.
    Mr. Hare: My Department keeps in close touch with the Ministry of Power and the National Coal Board over the closure of collieries. Should there be any disabled miners for whom the National Coal Board is unable to provide other employment, my disablement resettlement officers will give them every assistance in finding work. Very few miners with disabilities would, however, be likely to be in need of employment

    1347
    in Remploy factories, which is reserved for those so severely disabled as to be unlikely to obtain employment under ordinary conditions.
    Mr. Mason: Will the Minister now take upon himself the task of assessing this problem as a whole? There are about 200 pits to be closed in the next five years. Many of the industrially disabled and diseased cannot go to other collieries because those collieries already have their quota, and factories will not take them. Therefore, Remploy seems to be the likely best intake; but it would require much more finance than has been given hitherto for the development of Remploy. Should not the right hon. Gentleman now conduct a survey with this in mind?
    Mr. Hare: I am keeping in very close touch with the National Coal Board on this matter. The Board expects to absorb elsewhere some of these men quite close to their place of work and most of the men whose pits will be closed in 1962. I certainly take cognisance of what the hon. Member has said. I am as anxious as he is to see that these men are given a proper chance.
    Mr. Finch: Is the Minister aware that there have been two closures in the south-west coalfield and more are likely in the new year? There are employed at those collieries seriously disabled men whose only chance of obtaining employment when they become redundant is with Remploy. Can he take this up with Remploy?
    Mr. Hare: I am not prepared to accept as categorically as the hon. Member said it that the only chance of employment for these men is Remploy, but I have said that I am very conscious of this problem and I shall see that the best is done for the men concerned.
    Mr. Wainwright: Is the Minister aware that in areas where pits are to close usually the unemployment figures are higher than the national average? Is he aware that from 12th October to 8th November there was a decrease in unfilled vacancies of over 21,000? Can I impress upon the Minister that he must take special precautions and prepare for the special needs of these unfortunate miners who will find the
    1348
    greatest difficulty in finding jobs when their pits close?
    Mr. Hare: I sympathise with what the hon. Member has said, but I think he will agree that the National Coal Board has a very good record in planning for redundancy ahead. It has done everything possible to find employment. I shall keep in close touch, and I believe that between us we shall be able to solve the problem in a satisfactory way.
    Mr. D. Griffiths: If I heard him aright, the right hon. Gentleman indicated that the type of disease and injury applicable to miners was not in general the type for which Remploy caters. Is he not aware that the type of injury and disease catered for by Remploy is similar to that of a considerable number of these people who are injured and have various diseases and that they could be catered for if the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave him a little more cash to exert more energies to give better opportunities and scope in Remploy?
    Mr. Hare: I am sure the hon. Member did not want to misquote what I said. I said that my advice is that "Very few miners with disabilities would, however, be likely to be in need of employment in Remploy factories, which is reserved for those so severely disabled as to be unlikely to obtain employment under ordinary conditions." The House has taken a great interest in this matter and I will look at it most carefully.
    Mr. Prentice: In view of the very serious problem to which my hon. Friends have drawn attention, is not this the very worst moment for the Minister to contemplate cuts in the estimates for Remploy factories and Government training centres, which are relevant to the problem of the people to whom the Question relates?
    Mr. Hare: I do not think that is part of the Question, neither do I know on what authority the hon. Member said that there are to be cuts in the Remploy estimates. In fact, we are increasing the amount of money to be made available to Remploy factories.
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Minister of Labour what particular proposals he has in mind for Scotland, which would assist miners, who are likely to become

    1349
    redundant as a result of pit closures in Scotland in the next few years, to find other employment.
    Mr. Hare: The National Coal Board has already indicated that it expects to provide alternative employment for the great majority of miners affected by the pit closures which have been announced for Scotland. My officers will do all they cart to assist any miners needing other work.
    Mr. Dempsey: Is the Minister aware that after the last pit closure we had as many as 50 per cent. of the mining labour becoming redundant? Does he realise that some of that 50 per cent. are still looking for employment? Does he realise that this calls for special planning to coincide with the pit closures so as to guarantee to men, on whose industry the whole economy depends, their right to alternative employment at the end of their mining career?
    Mr. Hare: I repeat what I said in answer to a previous Question: the National Coal Board expects to find alternative coal mining employment for most of these men within daily travelling distance of their homes, either at once or within a relatively short time of the pit closure. I also repeat that the National Coal Board has a very good record in this matter.
    Miss Herbison: Is the Minister aware that there will certainly be some for whom the National Coal Board will not find jobs? Is he aware that those men will be living in areas in which there is already high unemployment? Is he also aware that all the figures which he gives to bamboozle Scotland about jobs in the pipeline do not alter the fact that there are fewer people in civil employment at present in Scotland than there were four or five years ago?
    Mr. Hare: Most certainly the people of Scotland are not being bamboozled about the fact that the Government have, through direct and indirect action, provided a large number of jobs and new industries in Scotland. I shall do all I can—in conjunction with the President of the Board of Trade—to see that jobs are found for those who are not provided for under the National Coal Board redundancy plan.

    Export Industries (Labour)
    Mr. Farrasked the Minister of Labour if local employment exchanges have a list of those firms manufacturing for export in their areas; and whether such firms are given priority in their demands for labour.
    Mr. Hare: There is no system of priorities, but my officers do everything possible in conjunction with the Board of Trade to assist firms whose export production is hampered by shortage of labour.
    Mr. Farr: Does my right hon. Friend think, in view of the importance to the nation of export industries, that a more distinct arrangement could be made? There is a large engineering firm in my constituency which is exporting over 40 per cent. of its products and has the utmost difficulty in obtaining skilled or unskilled labour from the local labour exchange.
    Mr. Hare: I have the greatest sympathy with what my hon. Friend says, but to do effectively what he has suggested would demand the direction of labour and I do not think any of us wants to contemplate that in peace time. I can assure my hon. Friend that we do our level best to assist in the problems of bottlenecks such as that in the example he has given.

    Equity and Independent Television Companies (Dispute)
    Mr. Currieasked the Minister of Labour (1) whether his attention has been drawn to the present dispute between Equity and the Independent Television Companies' Association; what steps he has taken with a view to conciliation; and if he will make a statement;
    (2) whether he will consider inviting representatives of Equity and of the Independent Television Companies' Association to a meeting to be held under his auspices with a view to resolving the existing dispute between these parties.
    Mr. Hare: No request has so far been made for my Department's assistance, although my officers have had informal discussions with representatives of

    1351
    Equity, the Independent Television Companies' Labour Relations Committee and the Independent Television Authority. I understand that further negotiations are now to take place between Equity and the employers.
    Mr. Currie: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask if he is aware that as a result of a fairly substantial offer of increased fees made by the companies the two parties are now very close together? In these circumstances, would he not consider using his good offices to bring an early end to this dispute?
    Mr. Hare: If his information is correct and these parties are close together and about to start further negotiations, I think my hon. Friend will agree that we should hope they will settle their disputes without bringing in the Minister of Labour.
    Mr. Jeger: Is the Minister aware that it is indeed true that the two parties to the dispute are very close together and it is hoped that their dispute may be settled? Surely that will release the hon. Member for Down, North (Mr. Currie) to worry about the unemployment problem in Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Hare: In defence of my hon. Friend, I should say that I think that is a most unwarranted and unnecessary interjection.

    Scotland
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Minister of Labour what was the average of registered unemployed in Scotland in 1951 and in 1961 to date, respectively; and what were those averages expressed as a percentage of the total of insured employees.
    Mr. Hare: The figures are 53,413 and 67,639; that is 2·5 per cent. and 3·1 per cent., respectively.
    Mr. Dempsey: Does the Minister realise that what he is saying is that after ten years of Conservative rule Scotland has more unemployment than ever? Does he realise that although that may be good enough for his party and Government it is not good enough for the people of Scotland? Is it not about time that he got cracking with plans, not platitudes, to bring additional work to
    1352
    Scotland so that citizens of the United Kingdom in that part of the country may enjoy the privilege of the right to work?
    Mr. Hare: The hon. Member enjoyed his supplementary question. He realises that 1951 was a year of particularly low unemployment. He accuses me of platitudes and of doing nothing. I remind him that since October, 1951, industrial development certificates have been approved covering nearly 90,000 jobs. Every Scottish Member knows that we are doing all we can to encourage the development of a broader-based and progressive economy in Scotland. He may not know that by October of this year no fewer than 29,000 jobs had arisen or are expected from factory building and financial assistance provided under the Local Employment Act, 1960.
    Mr. Willis: Is the Minister aware that the figures which he has given, distressing though they are, fail to take account of the tens of thousands of Scotsmen who have been driven to seek jobs outside Scotland and that but for this the figures would be much worse? Would he not impress upon the President of the Board of Trade the need for a much greater programme than is at present being undertaken in connection with Scotland?
    Mr. Hare: My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade will take note of what the hon. Member and others have said, but, in fairness, I ask hon. Members not to minimise the immense effort which has been made in providing extra jobs in Scotland.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Scott-Hopkins.
    Mr. Dempsey: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment as early as possible.

    Cornwall
    Mr. Scott-Hopkinsasked the Minister of Labour if he will state the figures of unemployed in Cornwall to the latest available date.
    Mr. Green: On 13th November, there were 4,534 persons registered as unemployed in Cornwall of whom 3,065 were males and 1,469 females.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: In view of the very high number of unemployed compared with the population of Cornwall, particularly my part of north Cornwall, and the fact that only two factories have gone there since the Local Employment Act, 1960, will the Minister consult the President: of the Board of Trade as a matter of the utmost urgency to get more factories and more jobs available in Cornwall, particularly north Cornwall? It is of the utmost importance.
    Mr. Green: I have the utmost sympathy with my hon. Friend about the difficulties in Cornwall. As he knows, they are mainly due to the remoteness of the area. He will appreciate that with the exception of Bude, Launceston, St. Austell and Truro, the whole county is listed as a development district, and the Government are doing what they can to help.

    Factory, Aycliffe Trading Estate
    Mr. Slaterasked the Minister of Labour what information he has regarding the closing down of Kleeware Plastics Factory at Aycliffe Trading Estate; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Green: I understand that the management have decided to close the factory because experience has shown that it is too far away from their main production units to function efficiently. My local officers will do all they can to help any of the workpeople seeking alternative work.
    Mr. Slater: Is the Minister aware that when the employees received notice of the closing of this factory it came as a great shock to them, because many of them live in the adjoining new town of Newton Aycliffe? Did any consultation take place between the employers and the trade union, as the responsible body on the trade union side for the workers there, prior to the decision being taken to close this factory? If not, is this not another example of sheer contempt for the services and loyalty of employees to the firm over many years? What are the possibilities of these 300 people being found work in other grades of employment on the trading estate?
    Mr. Green: I will take the last point first, because I think that it is the most important. I understand that there are
    1354
    reasonable chances of alternative employment for skilled and clerical workers who will be redundant under this closure. The prospects for semiskilled and unskilled personnel are not so good.
    The first and second points which the hon. Member raised concern a different question from that on the Order Paper and I should be wrong to try to answer them without a further look at them. If he would like to come to see me I should be very happy to meet him.

    Trades Union Congress (Discussions)
    Mr. W. Yatesasked the Minister of Labour on what date and where he last held a meeting with the Trades Union Congress to discuss the effect of unofficial strikes on the country; what was the result of that meeting; and what action he decided to take.
    Mr. Hare: As I explained in my reply of 16th November to my hon. Friend, I have been having regular discussions with the Trades Union Congress and the British Employers' Confederation on the whole question of improving industrial relations. The purpose of these discussions is to remove the cause of unofficial strikes.
    Mr. Yates: Is the Minister aware that up and down the country unofficial strikes have been caused by people who are Communists and who are doing great damage to this country's export trade all over the world? Will he please consider doing something more than mere exhortation?
    Mr. Hare: My hon. Friend is quite right that many of these unofficial strikes which have been taking place have been doing great damage to the trade of our country.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: But not by Communists.
    Mr. Hare: I did not say that. The strikes have also been doing great damage to the men themselves and, in my opinion, to their workmates. I am glad to say that we are not living in a dictatorship. I believe that there is full realisation of the fact which I have mentioned—that unofficial strikes are not to be tolerated, in the interests of

    1355
    the unions, the employers and the Government. We have all condemned them. How, in a democratic society, should we set about trying to deal with them? Surely the sensible, practical and British way is by getting people to cooperate together, to point out the folly, to remove the causes and to settle matters by the normal processes of negotiation and good sense.
    Mr. Prentice: Does the Minister agree that the Trades Union Congress published a very good and very useful report on unofficial strikes last year which drew attention to some of the failings of the trade union movement and that there is a good deal of real leadership taking place to try to put some of these things right? Will he further agree that it would be helpful if the management organisations would equally publicly and equally comprehensively deal with the problem from their angle? Would he agree that 60 per cent. of the strikes in this country last year took place in four industries and that they were further concentrated on certain firms, and that this tends to the conclusion that the most common reason for strikes is bad management?
    Mr. Hare: It would be a great mistake to try to apportion blame between management and workers. [HON. MEMBERS: " Oh."] I am speaking for myself, not for any other hon. Member, and that is my opinion. I believe that it would be a great error. Both parties have admitted that there are faults on each side. The hon. Member is quite correct. Last year 60 per cent. of the unofficial strikes took place in four industries alone. I have been discussing with employers in the motor-car industry, shipbuilding and the dock industry ways and means of removing the causes of these very damaging disputes.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: I am confident that management is trying to do everything possible to improve relations, but will my right hon. Friend put this suggestion to the T.U.C. as perhaps a constructive one? My suggestion is that the unions should, if possible, strengthen their central secretariat organisation so as to have more officials available to attend to local disputes before they go too far. The weakness of the central
    1356
    secretariat in some cases allows local disputes to get out of hand.
    Mr. Hare: I have told both sides of industry that each must do a great deal in this connection. They do not disagree with this. I believe that they are prepared to take effective action to deal with this problem.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the Minister aware that many trade unionists are greatly perturbed by the unofficial strikes in the House of Commons and that, if there were as many unofficial strikes in industry as there are in the House of Commons as regards people not attending their work, it would be impossible for industry to run properly?
    Mr. Hare: The hon. Gentleman might refer that question to the Leader of the Opposition or to the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, who is here now.
    Mr. Yates: In view of the urgency of this matter, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

    Remploy
    Mr. LI. Williamsasked the Minister of Labour how many people were employed in Remploy factories in April, 1950, April, 1955, April, 1960, and on the most recent available date, respectively; and if he will make a statement about the future prospects of Remploy.
    Mr. Hare: The number of severely disabled workers employed by Remploy was 4,387 in April, 1950; 6,306 in April, 1955; 6,322 in April, 1960; and 6,195 last month. The progressive increase in the Government's grant to Remploy which was announced last year is intended to enable the company to increase its employment of severely disabled workers.
    Mr. LI. Williams: Is the Minister aware that the creation of Remploy Ltd. by the Labour Government was one of the most inspired and imaginative pieces of legislation passed by the House of Commons? It has resulted in the rehabilitation of the hopes and confidence of thousands of people. Is he further aware that the very depressing statement about the non-expansion of Remploy

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    Ltd. during these last years has cruelly dashed the hopes of those who expected so much from the company? Will he do everything within his power to ensure that the watchword for Remploy is "Expansion" and not "Retraction"?
    Mr. Hare: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the formation of Remploy was indeed a very great step forward and that the Government of the day deserve credit for it. As for actual expansion, that took place chiefly between 1950 and 1955. There was very considerable expansion in those years. As I have already told the House, more funds are, being made available for the continued expansion of Remploy during the next few years.

    Abertillery
    Mr. LI. Williamsasked the Minister of Labour how many registered disabled persons were on the books of the Abertillery Employment Exchange on April, 1950, April, 1955, April, 1960, and on the most recent available date, respectively.
    Mr. Green: One hundred and eighty-two, 66 and 59 registered disabled persons were unemployed in April, 1950, 1955, and 1960, respectively. On 20th November, 1960, there were 70 and on 20th November, 1961, 64.
    Mr. LI. Williams: While rejoicing that the figures are following a decreasing trend, may I ask the Minister if he is aware that these people, so often referred to as the forgotten men of industry in a township like Abertillery where there is so little alternative employment outside the heavy industries, have a very gloomy outlook ahead of them unless something is done to bring about a diversification of industry in this type of community?
    Mr. Green: I do not dissent from what the hon. Gentleman has said and, like him, I am very glad that these figures show a real reduction between 1950 and the present time. The hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that out of the 64 now registered in Abertillery only 12 were considered to need sheltered employment, and we hope that Remploy's position will improve in the coming year so as to take at least some of them.

    Northern Region
    Mr. Randallasked the Minister of Labour if he will state the percentage increase in the total of unemployment in the Northern Region at 13th November, 1961, as compared with 16th October, 1961, and the percentage increase in the total of unemployment for Great Britain over the same period.
    Mr. Hare: In the Northern Region unemployment rose from 2·5 per cent. to 2·9 per cent. between October and November, 1961; this increase expressed as a percentage is 15·2 per cent. The comparable figures for Great Britain were 1·6 per cent., 1·7 per cent. and 5·9 per cent., respectively.
    Mr. Randall: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the last percentage figures he gave with regard to the Northern Region show a particularly disturbing trend? Does he agree that the figure for the Northern Region is higher than that for any other region? Does he further agree that this is beyond the normal seasonal increase? He is aware of the problem of semi-skilled and unskilled employment in the Northern Region. Does he not feel that some very active steps are required on his part to deal with the new situation?
    Mr. Hare: This is not the highest regional figure. Scotland is the highest. Much of this increase, which I am glad to say is still below 3 per cent., is, as the hon. Gentleman says, due to seasonal factors, but much of it is also due to reduced activity in the shipbuilding and ship-repairing industries, in iron and steel maintenance, and in construction work. These are the factors which have contributed to the increase.
    Mr. Ainsleyasked the Minister of Labour if he will give the number of unemployed, male and female, in the Northern Region for the months from November, 1960, to the present month.
    Mr. Hare: As the reply consists of a table of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Ainsley: The Minister has already admitted in a previous Answer that the Northern Region has twice the national average of unemployment. The basic industries are continuing to decline and the subsidiary firms that have set up on

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    the trading estates are now retracting to the London Region. Will the Government get out of their Whitehall and the London Region mentality and plan for the rest of the country?
    Mr. Hare: I think that the hon. Gentleman has slightly misquoted me. I did not say that the rate in the Northern Region was twice as high as anywhere else. On the general point of his supplementary question. I certainly am in touch with my right hon. Friends who have particular responsibilities in this matter. We shall continue to do all we can to keep the situation reasonably under control.
    Following is the reply:

    UNEMPLOYMENT IN NORTHERN REGION

    Month

    Males

    Females

    Total

    November, 1960

    25,904

    9,142

    35,046

    December, 1960

    25,732

    9,210

    34,942

    January, 1961

    28,000

    9,328

    37,328

    February, 1961

    25,669

    9,091

    34,760

    March, 1961

    23,657

    8,452

    32,109

    April, 1961

    23,614

    8,362

    31,976

    May, 1961

    21,547

    8,100

    29,647

    June, 1961

    19,559

    6,367

    25,926

    July, 1961

    18,899

    5,899

    24,798

    August, 1961

    22,752

    7,479

    30,231

    September, 1961

    23,255

    7,411

    30,666

    October, 1961

    25,353

    7,907

    33,260

    November, 1961

    29,456

    8,843

    38,299

    Immigrants
    Mr. Mellishasked the Minister of Labour what steps are being taken by his Department in co-operation with the Trades Union Congress and employers' organisations to ensure that racial discrimination does not take place in the employment and wage rates of immigrant workers.
    Mr. Hare: I am not aware of any discrimination against immigrant workers in their wage rates and conditions of employment. If the hon. Member has any evidence to the contrary, I shall be glad to be given this.
    Mr. Mellish: Is the Minister aware that his statement will cause a great deal of satisfaction to most people in the House, but I think that it will be a very disturbing piece of news to some of his hon. Friends who have suggested frankly and openly in letters to the Press that
    1360
    coloured persons are being used for this purpose? Is it not about time that we nailed this lie?
    Mr. Hare: The hon. Gentleman quite clearly understood my reply, and I think it will be of very considerable satisfaction to hon. Members on both sides of the House.

    Durham
    Mr. Ainsleyasked the Minister of Labour if he will give the figures, for each employment exchange area in the county of Durham, of unemployed, male and female, over the past 12 months from November, 1960 to the present day, stating separately those from juvenile employment offices.
    Mr. Green: As the Reply consists of a Table of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Ainsley: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that at the weekend I attended a secondary school which has 1,097 children or young people on its rolls? They will shortly come on to the employment market. As there is no prospect of employment in the area, what do the Government intend to do to help these young people?
    Mr. Green: I am sure that none of us wishes to exaggerate the problem, even if a problem exists. The facts at the moment are that this year there were nearly 2,500 more summer school leavers than there were in 1960. I am glad to say that only 137 of those are still seeking work.
    Mr. Short: Is it not a fact that by far the biggest occupational group in the tragic unemployment figures of the North-East is the unskilled worker? Cannot the Government tackle this problem in two ways—first, by initiating training schemes for unskilled workers and, secondly, by themselves providing work for unskilled workers?
    Mr. Green: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we are doing our best to diversify industry in the Northern Region. This will help very much, because the wider the range of skills the wider the range of training for those skills.
    Following is the table:

    NUMBERS OF PERSONS REGISTERED AS UNEMPLOYED AT EACH EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGE AND YOUTH EMPLOYMENT OFFICE IN THE COUNTY OF DURHAM ADULTS 18 YEARS AND OVER

    —

    14th Nov., 1960

    12th Dec., 1960

    16th Jan., 1961

    13th Feb., 1961

    13th Mar., 1961

    10th Apr., 1961

    15th May, 1961

    12th June, 1961

    10th July, 1961

    14th Aug., 1961

    11th Sept., 1961

    16th Oct., 1961

    13th Nov., 1961

    Employment Exchange

    Barnard Castle

    Men

    51

    53

    75

    68

    66

    41

    21

    23

    27

    21

    25

    39

    45

    Women

    15

    15

    17

    19

    17

    15

    10

    8

    11

    7

    7

    19

    24

    Billingham (formerly Haverton Hill)

    Men

    88

    66

    62

    57

    53

    49

    54

    41

    39

    61

    78

    101

    118

    Women

    53

    55

    53

    50

    54

    49

    49

    48

    49

    41

    72

    92

    82

    Birtley

    Men

    88

    86

    95

    87

    68

    70

    55

    46

    43

    64

    66

    70

    88

    Women

    41

    41

    36

    31

    40

    42

    27

    19

    17

    23

    31

    40

    29

    Bishop Auckland

    Men

    424

    415

    460

    429

    380

    358

    364

    339

    333

    355

    389

    418

    438

    Women

    102

    118

    121

    119

    112

    113

    119

    116

    113

    79

    116

    114

    161

    Blaydon-on-Tyne

    Men

    222

    212

    221

    214

    211

    194

    187

    200

    177

    180

    220

    242

    267

    Women

    64

    53

    59

    55

    43

    50

    43

    41

    43

    37

    41

    50

    42

    Chester-le-Street

    Men

    300

    286

    314

    279

    245

    219

    192

    196

    183

    215

    221

    252

    290

    Women

    67

    67

    63

    63

    59

    53

    75

    53

    41

    37

    47

    41

    38

    Consett

    Men

    175

    218

    214

    199

    200

    183

    169

    199

    204

    215

    351

    305

    327

    Women

    100

    118

    93

    97

    100

    111

    85

    79

    73

    67

    72

    85

    89

    Crook

    Men

    341

    333

    350

    345

    298

    288

    284

    242

    243

    268

    306

    427

    443

    Women

    47

    50

    48

    47

    47

    53

    48

    36

    41

    45

    50

    41

    46

    Darlington

    Men

    389

    391

    415

    411

    877

    596

    519

    340

    350

    453

    421

    785

    974

    Women

    215

    210

    218

    221

    228

    234

    217

    190

    180

    219

    203

    232

    267

    Durham

    Men

    419

    432

    451

    415

    374

    432

    374

    352

    387

    367

    383

    440

    484

    Women

    48

    41

    42

    46

    41

    56

    51

    28

    30

    41

    52

    56

    46

    East Bolden

    Men

    101

    102

    110

    108

    88

    78

    54

    55

    52

    41

    55

    55

    70

    Women

    22

    22

    24

    28

    28

    28

    33

    16

    18

    10

    17

    12

    9

    Felling-on-Tyne

    Men

    241

    280

    312

    273

    234

    233

    223

    206

    202

    232

    215

    203

    250

    Women

    67

    92

    85

    93

    70

    84

    71

    85

    90

    78

    69

    71

    83

    —

    14th Nov., 1960

    12th Dec., 1960

    16th Jan., 1961

    13th Feb., 1961

    13th Mar., 1961

    10th Apr., 1961

    15th May, 1961

    12th June, 1961

    10th July, 1961

    14th Aug., 1961

    11th Sept., 1961

    16th Oct., 1961

    13th Nov., 1961

    Gateshead

    Men

    1,013

    1,063

    1,156

    1,110

    1,032

    968

    868

    822

    802

    822

    820

    866

    940

    Women

    192

    168

    207

    202

    192

    184

    180

    151

    148

    131

    170

    177

    162

    Hartlepool

    Men

    147

    163

    149

    144

    128

    170

    143

    160

    180

    165

    174

    153

    283

    Women

    84

    85

    67

    57

    60

    59

    53

    40

    41

    45

    44

    50

    68

    Haswell

    Men

    135

    128

    139

    139

    132

    121

    113

    99

    88

    91

    102

    112

    117

    Women

    62

    59

    60

    57

    54

    47

    41

    21

    16

    22

    20

    28

    22

    Horden

    Men

    327

    326

    307

    315

    259

    251

    242

    225

    222

    260

    246

    287

    306

    Women

    300

    276

    277

    274

    243

    249

    173

    124

    110

    80

    107

    123

    115

    Houghton-le-Spring

    Men

    517

    527

    582

    523

    486

    470

    453

    411

    393

    390

    404

    420

    441

    Women

    139

    201

    138

    132

    120

    104

    154

    113

    101

    113

    131

    130

    162

    Jarrow and Hebburn

    Men

    824

    891

    754

    670

    574

    684

    638

    536

    539

    504

    649

    660

    765

    Women

    382

    358

    330

    335

    327

    329

    319

    302

    290

    278

    315

    333

    374

    Middleton-in-Teesdale

    Men

    38

    45

    74

    68

    47

    25

    15

    15

    12

    18

    18

    27

    30

    Women

    4

    4

    4

    6

    6

    5

    5

    8

    5

    7

    7

    8

    9

    Pallion

    Men

    1,019

    954

    1,054

    1,023

    878

    875

    1,041

    815

    779

    823

    795

    791

    854

    Women

    405

    406

    433

    460

    432

    428

    761

    296

    311

    260

    269

    274

    277

    Seaham Harbour

    Men

    389

    420

    468

    410

    402

    372

    353

    303

    288

    299

    285

    290

    283

    Women

    233

    226

    231

    245

    230

    209

    241

    199

    176

    215

    210

    208

    200

    Shildon

    Men

    74

    70

    78

    65

    77

    68

    56

    57

    47

    55

    51

    78

    84

    Women

    16

    18

    23

    23

    23

    20

    18

    17

    14

    15

    25

    21

    19

    South Shields

    Men

    1,861

    2,071

    1,718

    1,721

    1,563

    1,521

    1,426

    1,140

    980

    963

    1,226

    1,441

    1,701

    Women

    410

    395

    407

    394

    390

    397

    361

    360

    309

    313

    316

    334

    310

    Southwick-on-Wear

    Men

    548

    551

    587

    531

    501

    495

    508

    438

    444

    447

    469

    468

    498

    Women

    164

    214

    194

    171

    170

    179

    259

    133

    145

    127

    142

    139

    139

    Spennymoor

    Men

    353

    377

    377

    354

    335

    364

    343

    295

    268

    294

    284

    318

    364

    Women

    67

    71

    73

    81

    97

    106

    94

    88

    74

    65

    68

    69

    80

    —

    14th Nov., 1960

    12th Dec, 1960

    16th Jan., 1961

    13th Feb., 1961

    13th Mar., 1961

    10th Apr., 1961

    15th May, 1961

    12th June, 1961

    10th July, 1961

    18th Aug., 1961

    11th Sept., 1961

    16th Oct., 1961

    13th Nov., 1961

    Stanley

    Men

    335

    345

    382

    350

    341

    356

    338

    318

    326

    369

    413

    428

    438

    Women

    119

    155

    89

    95

    81

    81

    81

    81

    79

    66

    77

    95

    89

    Stockton and Thornaby

    Men

    715

    680

    717

    687

    626

    569

    574

    526

    553

    586

    597

    775

    839

    Women

    283

    259

    284

    289

    264

    277

    307

    329

    175

    203

    235

    285

    266

    Sunderland

    Men

    1,687

    1,728

    1,822

    1,774

    1,599

    1,470

    1,430

    1,344

    1,327

    1,333

    1,331

    1,356

    1,664

    Women

    308

    533

    336

    331

    290

    295

    397

    205

    186

    171

    177

    301

    345

    Washington Station

    Men

    83

    84

    90

    84

    82

    84

    78

    60

    68

    80

    80

    76

    74

    Women

    32

    31

    27

    24

    27

    28

    28

    30

    29

    21

    30

    23

    29

    West Hartlepool

    Men

    701

    772

    766

    797

    737

    703

    680

    709

    784

    900

    1,131

    1,178

    1,203

    Women

    353

    336

    294

    298

    277

    266

    263

    241

    261

    260

    306

    309

    402

    Wingate

    Men

    215

    222

    229

    226

    200

    212

    202

    172

    169

    196

    195

    225

    243

    Women

    55

    65

    75

    96

    108

    97

    88

    77

    74

    70

    78

    79

    80

    Total, Adults

    Men

    13,820

    18,291

    18,528

    13,876

    13,093

    12,519

    11,997

    10,684

    10,509

    11,067

    12,000

    13,294

    18,921

    Women

    4,449

    4,742

    4,408

    4,442

    4,230

    4,256

    4,651

    3,534

    3,250

    3,186

    3,504

    3,839

    4,064

    YOUNG PERSONS UNDER 18 YEARS

    —

    14th Nov., 1960

    12th Dec., 1960

    16th Jan., 1961

    13th Feb., 1961

    13th Mar., 1961

    10th Apr., 1961

    15th May, 1961

    12th June, 1961

    10th July, 1961

    14th Aug., 1961

    11th Sept., 1961

    16th Oct., 1961

    13th Nov., 1961

    Employment Exchange

    South Wales

    Boys

    55

    49

    116

    81

    55

    89

    48

    24

    27

    150

    106

    74

    56

    Girls

    28

    32

    38

    33

    25

    35

    20

    19

    17

    40

    42

    29

    28

    West Hartlepool

    Boys

    50

    46

    73

    45

    26

    47

    37

    30

    25

    87

    120

    119

    183

    Girls

    8

    8

    16

    21

    10

    22

    12

    10

    4

    35

    43

    22

    27

    Youth Employment Office

    Bishop Auckland

    Boys

    27

    18

    41

    21

    27

    19

    13

    12

    13

    28

    34

    28

    23

    Girls

    17

    10

    22

    17

    20

    15

    9

    8

    8

    21

    19

    17

    42

    Blaydon-on-Tyne

    Boys

    19

    16

    45

    30

    12

    30

    13

    7

    6

    48

    38

    23

    18

    Girls

    10

    11

    25

    26

    15

    14

    13

    16

    10

    31

    22

    27

    25

    Chester-le-Street

    Boys

    26

    20

    47

    33

    29

    42

    32

    19

    14

    51

    50

    39

    32

    Girls

    9

    9

    22

    19

    17

    15

    10

    10

    12

    24

    27

    20

    16

    Consett (Black Hill)

    Boys

    19

    18

    46

    22

    17

    31

    17

    12

    12

    46

    42

    27

    21

    Girls

    8

    9

    16

    13

    8

    4

    4

    2

    7

    32

    29

    16

    13

    Crook

    Boys

    14

    12

    20

    18

    8

    10

    8

    8

    6

    16

    14

    20

    15

    Girls

    8

    7

    14

    12

    8

    12

    10

    8

    2

    11

    9

    11

    15

    Darlington

    Boys

    13

    12

    20

    9

    23

    19

    7

    8

    4

    62

    30

    36

    38

    Girls

    10

    5

    31

    14

    11

    27

    10

    8

    8

    79

    30

    15

    15

    Durham

    Boys

    13

    16

    31

    28

    19

    21

    14

    9

    7

    29

    24

    19

    17

    Girls

    8

    4

    17

    4

    10

    9

    3

    4

    8

    39

    35

    34

    22

    Easington (Horden)

    Boys

    50

    48

    77

    59

    42

    57

    38

    37

    36

    50

    68

    44

    40

    Girls

    17

    20

    26

    21

    16

    13

    13

    8

    9

    33

    22

    18

    12

    Gateshead

    Boys

    15

    4

    92

    24

    22

    61

    28

    13

    19

    318

    141

    38

    50

    Girls

    9

    2

    15

    12

    11

    19

    11

    12

    16

    199

    41

    21

    12

    Houghton-le-Spring

    Boys

    21

    25

    64

    51

    23

    43

    28

    21

    16

    74

    71

    32

    27

    Girls

    11

    9

    22

    13

    8

    16

    7

    4

    10

    43

    34

    21

    13

    —

    14th Nov., 1960

    12th Dec., 1960

    16th Jan., 1961

    13th Feb., 1961

    13th Mar., 1961

    10th Apr., 1961

    15th May, 1961

    12th June, 1961

    10th July, 1961

    14th Aug., 1961

    11th Sept., 1961

    16th Oct., 1961

    13th Nov., 1961

    Jarrow

    Boys

    42

    49

    109

    82

    63

    72

    47

    48

    36

    100

    109

    59

    41

    Girls

    17

    11

    14

    19

    19

    18

    15

    9

    9

    25

    30

    21

    22

    Spennymoor

    Boys

    18

    15

    41

    17

    13

    26

    19

    15

    17

    44

    55

    33

    31

    Girls

    21

    20

    31

    31

    19

    22

    14

    17

    15

    44

    47

    20

    23

    Stanley

    Boys

    27

    22

    44

    34

    25

    42

    31

    19

    18

    61

    63

    31

    29

    Girls

    10

    4

    13

    11

    7

    13

    10

    6

    24

    23

    21

    11

    11

    Stockton-on-Tees

    Boys

    23

    21

    54

    34

    31

    35

    22

    12

    13

    84

    62

    40

    39

    Girls

    8

    7

    22

    16

    26

    30

    13

    8

    13

    40

    25

    13

    21

    Sunderland (C.B.)

    Boys

    130

    98

    202

    145

    92

    155

    93

    79

    65

    248

    169

    95

    64

    Girls

    25

    30

    69

    28

    40

    60

    166

    29

    40

    214

    87

    53

    25

    Sunderland (N.E. District)

    Boys

    32

    31

    72

    66

    41

    40

    28

    21

    17

    41

    58

    51

    46

    Girls

    8

    8

    19

    25

    21

    17

    30

    7

    6

    34

    16

    22

    11

    Total, Young Persons

    Boys

    594

    520

    1,194

    799

    568

    839

    523

    394

    351

    1,537

    1,254

    808

    770

    Girls

    232

    206

    432

    335

    291

    361

    370

    185

    218

    967

    579

    391

    353

    North-East
    Mr. Greyasked the Minister of Labour (1) what steps he is taking to reduce the increased level of unemployment in the North-East;
    (2) if he will make a statement on the increased unemployment figures in the North-East.
    Mr. Pentlandasked the Minister of Labour if his attention has been drawn to the increased number of unemployed in the North-East; what are the causes of this; and what steps he is taking to remedy the position.
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Labour to what causes he attributes the recent increase in unemployment in the North-East region; and what special measures he has taken to deal with the situation.
    Mr. Hare: Much of the recent rise in unemployment in the North-East is accounted for by normal seasonal factors. The rest is due mainly to reduced activity in shipbuilding and ship-repairing, in iron and steel manufacture and in construction. The Government are already doing all they can to attract additional industries into the areas where high unemployment persists.
    Mr. Grey: Is the Minister aware that we are becoming tired of being fobbed off with this kind of reply, not only to these present Questions but to previous ones? Is he not aware that no matter what he or his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade may say, the figures in the North-East have reached a new peak and are now higher than they were 18 months ago? Does he not regard that as a most serious factor, particularly happening at this time of year? If the trend is not reversed in the next few months the position will get even worse, so will he demand from his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade some immediate action to cure this problem?
    Mr. Hare: I shall certainly draw to the attention of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade what has been said. I am aware—indeed, my right hon. Friend and I are both very much aware—of the needs of the area, but the fact that there are at
    1372
    present about 27,000 jobs in prospect is evidence of the action which the Government have been taking to steer new industries to this area.
    Mr. Pentland: Would the right hon. Gentleman admit quite frankly that there are two reasons for the persistent and increasing rate of unemployment in the North-East? The first is the restrictionist policy which the Government put into effect every year or two, and the second is that the North-East has been starved of the vital new industries that are necessary to offset the decline now taking place in the basic industry.
    Mr. Hare: I have already indicated, and I think that the hon. Gentleman must have heard me, that a lot has been done to bring new industries to the North-East area. I would not, however, like to talk about a decline in the old industries. I do not believe that the shipbuilding industry should accept as a fact that it has to decline. I believe that if both sides of that industry can get together and become more competitive, they and it have a great future.
    Mr. Boyden: Has the Minister noted the very warm approval given in the North-East to the appointment of my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees as Director of the North-East Development Association, and will he give my hon. Friend and the association every possible encouragement, and consult them in order to get some fresh ideas?
    Mr. Hare: I do not know about hon. Gentlemen opposite, but I personally very much welcome the appointment of the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Chetwynd), and would certainly join with the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Boyden) in wishing his hon. Friend the very best of luck in his job. I can assure the House that any assistance I can give I certainly shall give.
    Mr. Prentice: In one reply after another to my hon. Friends from this region the Minister has referred to the decline in the basic industries in that area as though it were like the weather—something that could not be helped. Is it not the fact that the Government's economic policy of the last

    1373
    few months has accentuated and accelerated that decline? Secondly, if there is a decline, is it not all the more urgent to bring new industries to the area? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in his replies he has not said a word about that?
    Mr. Hare: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman really listens to the Answers that are given. First, I have said that the Government are bringing new industries to the area, and, secondly, I have just said that I do not think that we should assume that the shipbuilding industry has to decline. I believe that if both sides in it can get together the industry has a great future, and I would not write it off even if the hon. Member would.
    Mr. Prentice: Would the Minister say what further plans he has?
    Mr. Pentland: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman has said that I should not assume that the shipbuilding industry will decline. I never inferred that for one moment.
    Mr. Hare: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman did not.
    Mr. Shinwell: The Minister has referred to the decline of the shipbuilding industry. Is he not aware that it employs a very large number of semi-skilled and, occasionally, unskilled workers, and is not this precisely where the Government have failed to take any action? Why do the Government not do something about those people?
    Mr. Hare: I have said that part of the cause of this position has been the temporary decline in shipbuilding activities. I believe that this industry can make itself far more competitive, and we should not assume that it will not succeed in carrying out, as it always has in the past, the rôle of being one of our major exporting industries.

    Wages Councils (Orders)
    Mr. Milneasked the Minister of Labour why he deferred till 2nd April, 1962 the operation of increases in female laundry workers' wage rates granted by the Laundry Wages Council; and, in view of the low wages being paid in this industry, if he will reconsider his decision.
    Mr. Leeasked the Minister of Labour how many wage council awards
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    he has ratified as from 2nd April, 1962; and for what reason he has chosen this date.
    Mr. Padleyasked the Minister of Labour why he has postponed the operation of the Laundry Wages Council Order until 2nd April, 1962.
    Mr. Hare: I have made five Wages Regulation Orders with operative dates of 1st or 2nd April. I thought it right that there should be some element of delay before these Orders became effective because of the declared policy of the Government that in the present economic circumstances there should be a pause in increases in wages and other incomes. One of the five orders gives effect to proposals from the Laundry Wages Council for increases in the rates of female laundry workers. I have no doubt that in making its proposals the Council took full account of the present rates.
    Mr. Milne: Is not the Minister aware that the Laundry Wages Council decisions affect workers in a very lowly paid industry? Is he not further aware that it is an injustice to inflict a pay pause on any section of workers, but that it is particularly unjust to those whose wage rates are such as have been agreed by the Laundry Wages Council? Is it not most unfair that after agreement has been reached in respect of wage increases the Minister of Labour should intervene like this and withhold implementation of the increases until well into the early part of next year?
    Mr. Hare: I would say that it was because of the declared policy of the Government of the need for the wage pause that, in fact, I took the action I did. These wage rates are put forward by the Council itself. My duty is to decide on what date they should be implemented.
    Mr. Prentice: Is it not incredibly mean that an Order that leaves the men's wages at £7 17s. 10d. a week and raises the wages of the women workers only to £5 12s. 10½d, should nevertheless have to be postponed until 2nd April, 1962? Just how mean can the Government get in this matter? Is it not a terrible confession of failure on their part that their economic policy is in such a mess that they have had to put a burden on people earning these amounts of money?
    Mr. Hare: These, of course, are minimum rates—[Interruption.]—as the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well. Perhaps this is not the time to go into an argument on the wage pause, but the purpose of the wage pause is to ensure that the value of wages shall be maintained and in this it is the lower-paid workers who benefit.

    Shops and Offices
    Mr. Spriggsasked the Minister of Labour how many representations his Department has received protesting about the Government's failure to provide legislation for health, welfare and safety in shops and offices.
    Mr. Hare: Sixty-two letters, from 48 different correspondents have been addressed or forwarded to my Department pressing for legislative action in the current Parliamentary Session.
    Mr. Spriggs: Is the Minister aware that there are approximately 3½ million men and women working in shops and offices? Is he further aware that I have received a protest from a trade union branch, which has organised shop and office workers, at the Government's dilatoriness in legislating for health, welfare, and sick pay in shops and offices?
    Mr. Hare: The vast majority of the letters that have come to my Department have come from the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers. As I and my right hon. Friends have mentioned in the House, we have very much regretted that there has had to be this delay in introducing this legislation but, in view of the full Parliamentary programme, it was thought wise to see that proper time was made available in the next Session.
    Mr. Marsh: In view of the promises given by the Government in the last Session, can the Minister tell the House what guarantees he has given his 62 correspondents that would enable them to have more faith in the Government's word this year than last?
    Mr. Hare: As far as I am concerned, I have given my word.
    Hon. Members: Oh.

    Dock Workers, London
    Mr. Mellishasked the Minister of Labour if he will state the average percentage of those unemployed during October who were registered port workers in London; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Hare: The National Dock Labour Board informs me that the average percentage of registered dock workers in the Port of London for whom no work was available was 15·7 per cent. during the period 1st-28th October, 1961. The Board has placed a standstill on further recruitment of dock workers in London, and operates a temporary release scheme.
    Mr. Mellish: Is the Minister not going to say something other than just giving the bare figure of 15 per cent. unemployed? This is a disastrous figure. Cannot the right hon. Gentleman therefore say something about the future? Is he aware that having started to recruit labour early in the year the Board has now written to the dock workers saying that anyone wanting to leave the docks can do so? What sort of country is this where the early part of the year is spent recruiting labour and we end up with 15 per cent unemployment?
    Mr. Hare: The basic answer is that there has been reduced activity in the London docks. It could be that this might have been partially due to what has happened in the London docks during the last 12 months. [Interruption.] As I have explained to the hon. Gentleman, the National Dock Labour Board has placed a standstill on further recruitment and has operated this temporary release scheme, and this is easing the pressure to which I referred.
    Mr. Prentice: Is this not a national problem that applies to docks other than this one, including those where there has not been any labour trouble for a long time? Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the Government can escape all responsibility for the lessening of economic activities to which he referred?
    Mr. Hare: I thought that the question applied to the London Docks.
    Mr. Peyton: Would my right hon. Friend not agree that an unfortunate fact

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    behind this is that the Port of London enjoys such a wretched reputation that the ship-owners avoid sending their ships there whenever possible?
    Mr. Hare: I do not think that we want to labour this point. We all regret what happened in the London Docks and we hope that more confidence will be restored in the future. I believe that if advantage is taken the lead which has been given by Mr. Crichton and Mr. Cousins in their new plan for dealing with the problem of the docks, we can forget the errors of the past and have confidence in the future.
    Mr. Mellish: Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that in spite of the previous trouble, official or unofficial, this is still the most efficient port in the world—even though it does not possess all the modernised equipment it should have? This is a national problem and the dockers will resent the implication that the figure of 15 per cent. unemployment is due to unofficial action.
    Mr. Hare: The hon. Gentleman might like to know that owing to this rundown the register has been reduced by over 1,800 and now stands at about 27,000.

    Industrial Rehabilitation Centres
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Labour, in view of the achievements of industrial rehabilitation centres in restoring the respect and usefulness of the disabled as well as providing sheltered employment for the severely disabled, and in view of the general concern caused by the economy measures in respect to the Kidbrooke and Long Eaton training centres and at 15 rehabilitation centres, he will give details of when the economy measures will come into force, of the proposed reduction in the numbers of disabled and staff at the centres, and of the sums estimated to be saved by these decisions.
    Mr. Hare: I have no intention of closing any industrial rehabilitation units. I hope to make a detailed statement shortly and I will send the hon. Member a copy.
    Mr. Dodds: Will the right hon. Gentleman remember that the general secretary of the Institution of Professional Civil
    1378
    Servants has already looked at his proposals and that this man of very temperate language calls them brutal, callous, shortsighted and mean? Does that not explain why the right hon. Gentleman cannot today give the facts to the House, and is this not a classic example of how low we have fallen under this Government when they have to economise with people who have previously had their morale raised?
    Mr. Hare: That rather emotional reaction on the part of the hon. Gentleman is presumably based on misinformation. He presumably imagined that I was going to close rehabilitation units. That is not the fact, and I hope that he will realise from my answer that his question and indignation were, perhaps, based on false information.
    Mr. Dodds: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman—
    Mr. Speaker: No.
    Mr. Dodds: On a point of order. Owing to the very unsatisfactory answer that has been given, I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

    Sedgefield
    Mr. Slaterasked the Minister of Labour how many are unemployed in the Sedgefield constituency; and how such figures compare with the 1960 figures.
    Mr. Green: As the reply contains figures for five of my local offices, I will, with permission, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Slater: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the unemployment figures have gone up since 1960, as sought in the question, in view of the fact that in just one factory 300 people have received notices terminating their employment and this is going to happen in other parts of the area?
    Mr. Green: I think the basic figures for which the hon. Gentleman is asking are that there has been a rise compared with a year ago, in November of this year, of 1,618 in the numbers registered as unemployed. Of that number, 684 were temporarily stopped.
    Mr. Short: In view of the unsatisfactory replies that have been given to all the questions about the North-East, I give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member must tie that notice to one specific question to avoid getting into difficulties about the rules of order.
    Mr. Short: In view of the unsatisfactory reply given to Question No. 28, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
    Following is the information:
    The Sedgefield constituency is part of the area served by Billingham, Darlington, Stockton and Thornaby, Spennymoor and West Hartlepool Employment Exchanges and Youth Employment Offices. The numbers of unemployed persons on the registers of these Employment Exchanges on 13th November, 1961 and 14th November, 1960 were as follows:—

    Employment Exchange

    13th November, 1961

    14th November, 1960

    Billingham (formerly Haverton Hill)

    200

    141

    Darlington

    1,294

    627

    Stockton and Thornaby

    1,197

    1,047

    Spennymoor

    498

    459

    West Hartlepool

    1,815

    1,112

    5,004

    3,386

    Blind Persons
    Mr. Benceasked the Minister of Labour what test is applied in the retention of blind persons in employment within institutions, for which he is responsible, established for the employment of blind persons.
    Mr. Green: Entrants to workshops for the blind are given a period of training after which they are expected to reach a minimum level of output as a condition of retention. In Scotland the appropriate level in each trade is determined by the Joint Industrial Council for Scottish Workshops for the Blind; in England and Wales it is determined by the Local Authorities Advisory Committee on the Conditions of Employment of Blind Workers, after consultation with the National Association of Workshops for the Blind and the National League of the Blind.
    Mr. Bence: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that I have received a reply from his Department concerning a young constituent of mine who was at the Glasgow Blind Workshops and does he not think that it is really shameful that a blind man should be put to the test of commercial production on baskets in order to be employed? Is it not a really shocking state of affairs that a commercial test should be applied to a blind man?
    Mr. Green: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I think I know about the case he has in mind and I shall be only too happy to see him about it if he so wishes. I am sure that he appreciates that all the arrangements to which I have referred are carried out in close consultation with the National League of the Blind and other people who are very experienced in this matter. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no question of callousness involved in this and all those who have been long associated with this matter will, I am sure, support me.
    Mr. Bence: I cannot accept that answer. Commercial tests applied to human beings with all their capacities can often be callous, but to apply a commercial test to a disabled or blind man is callous in the extreme. In view of the unsatisfactory reply I have received, I shall take the first opportunity to raise it on the Adjournment.

    I.L.O. Mission, Sweden (Report)
    Mr. Gresham Cookeasked the Minister of Labour what study he has made of the report of a mission from the International Labour Office on the trade union situation in Sweden; and what action he will take on similar lines in this country.
    Mr. Hare: I have studied the Report. Swedish conditions are very different from our own. Their system operates successfully only because both sides of industry combine in supporting its principles. Certainly we should examine the Swedish system, and any others which might be successfully adapted to our particular needs, but this can only be done with success if both sides of British Industry are willing to give their full co-operation.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Has my right hon. Friend studied the basic agreement of 1938 entered into between the

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    Swedish Confederation of Labour and the Swedish Confederation of Employers, which is both comprehensive and advanced and contains quick ways of settling disputes? Will my right hon. Friend draw this agreement to the attention of the T.U.C. and the British Employers' Confederation?
    Mr. Hare: The whole of this system depends on the agreement of both employers and trade unions.
    Mr. D. Griffiths: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the reason for this mutual understanding in Sweden is that they have a Socialist Government there, while the relations between employers and employees are different when one has a Conservative Party in power, as in this country.
    Mr. Hare: On this front, I did not notice any particularly wonderful sort of industrial relations existing between 1945 and 1951.

    Industrial Disputes, Australia
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: asked the Minister of Labour, what study he has made of the method of settlement of industrial disputes in Australia and the fall in working days lost between the years 1956 to 1959 as disclosed in the Labour Report, 1959, of the Commonwealth Bureau of Census and Statistics, a copy of which has been sent to him by the hon. Member for Twickenham, with a view to improving the methods of limiting the number of industrial disputes in this country.
    Mr. Hare: I have examined the situation in Australia and noted the statistics. The most recent International Labour Office figures relating to 1960 show that the number of days we lost per 1,000 workers through strikes in that year was lower than in Australia. Most of the days lost in this country are due to strikes in a small number of industries. I have been taking action to improve relations in those industries and I am sure this is the right way to tackle the problem.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: Has my right hon. Friend seen the startling fall in the number of days lost by strikes in Australia, from 1,120,000 in 1956 to 365,000 in 1959? Is he aware that Australian
    1382
    employers in general think that the conditions have improved since the coming into force of the Conciliation and Arbitration Act, 1956, whereby Ministry officials go to factories when a dispute is threatened and issue ballot papers to enable the workers to vote on whether or not they wish to strike?
    Mr. Hare: I dare say that things have improved in Australia, but I, too, can quote figures to my hon. Friend. In 1960 the number of days lost per 1,000 workers in Australia was 380. The figure for the United Kingdom was 240.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that the large number of industrial disputes which have occurred recently and those in the offing are due to the action of the Minister in interfering with the machinery laid down by the employers and the trade unions? Will he and the Chancellor of the Exchequer stop interfering with the wage negotiating machinery which now exists, and not try to break down that which has been built up for a number of years by the employers and employees?
    Mr. Hare: With respect, I do not think that supplementary question has much to do with this Question.

CONGO (SITUATION, KATANGA)
Mr. H. Wilson Mr. H. Wilson (by Private Notice) asked the Lord Privy Seal what information he has received from Her Majesty's Consul in Elizabethville about the fighting in Katanga and whether he has received any information about the safety of United Kingdom citizens in Katanga.
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Edward Heath): Her Majesty's Consul at Elisabethville has described the events which led up to the fighting which broke out yesterday. In the light of the Katangan undertaking, which was repeated to Her Majesty's Consul by Mr. Kimba, to withdraw road blocks between the United Nations headquarters and the airfield, the United Nations commenced withdrawal of its troops from the neighbourhood of these road blocks. The road blocks had not, however, been removed by the morning of 5th December.

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When Her Majesty's Consul and his United States colleague saw Mr. Kimba at 9.30 a.m. yesterday, Mr. Kimba said that they had not been able to withdraw their troops because he alleged that United Nations troops had opened fire on them and had established road blocks of their own. An immediate attempt was made to establish personal contact between Mr. Kimba and the United Nations, but this was unsuccessful. Mr. Urquhart did, however, speak to Mr. Kimba by telephone, but about midday the United Nations decided that it could no longer delay taking military action to restore its communications.
United Nations troops then infiltrated round the road blocks, after which small arms and mortar fire broke out. This appears to have been the first substantial action which took place. A suggestion by the United States Consul that the area of the main road in the neighbourhood of the road blocks should be demilitarised was overtaken by United Nations action to secure control. Subsequently, Her Majesty's Consul reported that the Katangans opened fire on United Nations headquarters. It is reported that three bombs were dropped last night on Elisabethville Airport, which is in United Nations hands.
This morning Her Majesty's Consul has reported that all was quiet until about 1130 hours when fighting again broke out in the area of United Nations headquarters. Since then, I have received no further details from our representatives in the Congo.
I have had no reports of injury to British subjects. Her Majesty's Consul has been given discretion to arrange for their departure from Elisabethville if he thinks this necessary.
I greatly hope that it may be possible for the United Nations to re-establish direct contact with the Provincial Government of the Katanga in order that the fighting may be brought to an end, and that the Acting Secretary-General of the United Nations will use all his efforts to achieve a solution by conciliation.
Mr. Wilson: Do the concluding words of the right hon. Gentleman's statement mean that the Government are not giving their clear and unequivocal support to
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the United Nations in this operation? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the United States Government have in very clear terms publicly announced their support of that operation, and, further, have stated where, in their view, the responsibility lies for this outbreak of hostilities? Will the right hon. Gentleman be equally unequivocal about it?
Mr. Heath: I shall be equally clear. The view of Her Majesty's Government is, as I said in the last sentence of my statement, that the United Nations should try continually to achieve conciliation between the two sides in the Congo. The United Nations forces are, of course, fully entitled to protect themselves when they are attacked, but they have not got a remit from the resolutions to try to impose a political solution by force.
Sir R. Grimston: Now that it is quite obvious that, whatever the specious excuses, the United Nations policy is bringing chaos and bloodshed to a part of the Congo where previously there was law and order, what is to happen next? Could my right hon. Friend tell me how long Her Majesty's Government are to continue to finance this disastrous and, indeed, wicked policy?
Mr. Heath: I have tried to give the House as fair a statement as I can of the incidents as they have occurred over the past two days, and hon. Members draw their own conclusions about those incidents. I am not prepared to accept that specious excuses have been made. I have tried to make a fair statement of the incidents which have occurred, but, due to the very high state of tension which exists in the Katanga, there is very often a conflict of evidence about these facts. The situation is, I think, clear, that the United Nations forces have got to defend themselves. Her Majesty's Government will support the main purpose of the United Nations in the Congo as they have seen it in the past and as I have described it to the House.
Mr. Wilson: In view of the suspicions which exist in many parts of the world that Her Majesty's Government seem to be attaching more importance to the pressure of the Katanga lobby behind

1385
them than to intelligent people elsewhere, in view of the colour which has been lent to these suspicions by the activity of Her Majesty's representatives when tins matter was last raised at the Security Council, and in view of the right hon. Gentleman's failure this afternoon to associate himself with the statement made, for example, by the United States Government—
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Why?
Mr. Wilson: —and even to go as far as M. Spaak has done in these matters, would the right hon. Gentleman not recognise that there is now a very urgent case for this matter to be brought on to the Floor of the House of Commons for a proper debate, so that we can hear the Government's defence of these actions and even allow the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) and other hon. Members who support him to try to justify in the open the pressures which they are applying privately?
Mr. Heath: These suspicions, which are apparently echoed by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson), are completely unjustified. I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends, who have seen the attitude of some of my hon. Friends on this side of the House to my own speeches on the Congo, would realise that. I have stated time and again plainly what the Government's attitude is. If the right hon. Gentleman believes that the United Nations is entitled to impose a political solution by the use of its forces in the Congo, he should say so quite clearly. That is not the view of Her Majesty's Government. When working for conciliation we are entitled not to have these suspicions thrown at us.
Mr. Wilson: Does the right hon. Gentleman then suggest that the United Nations is going beyond the mandate given to it by the Security Council resolution? If he does think that, why does not he have the "guts" to say so? If he does not, will he withdraw the insinuation?
Mr. Heath: I have not made that insinuation. I have given the House a perfectly fair statement of the facts as we know them, and I have stated our attitude towards them.
Mr. Wade: In his statement yesterday, the Lord Privy Seal referred to a battle plan which had given rise to the latest action in the Congo. Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House any further information about the battle plan which had been discovered by the United Nations representatives, since it would seem to have some bearing on what has occurred?
Mr. Heath: I have no information about that plan, but I am quite certain that the United Nations will publish it in the usual way when it is possible to do so.
Mr. John Hall: Will my right hon. Friend tell the House why it was not possible to arrange this contact between Mr. Kimba and the United Nations authorities? Was it due to lack of enthusiasm for such a meeting on one side or the other?
Mr. Heath: It was because relations are very strained between both sides in the Katanga.
Mr. A. Henderson: Is it not time that the United Nations made an attempt to organise a political conference, say, on neutral territory such as Geneva, for instance, between the various political leaders, having regard to the failure of its attempt to bring Mr. Adoula and Mr. Tshombe together because of Mr. Tshombe's refusal to go to Leopoldville?
Mr. Heath: We would gladly support any such attempt by the United Nations. We have, of course, put forward many suggestions ourselves both to Mr. Tshombe and to Mr. Adoula that such a meeting should be arranged. We have suggested many ways in which this might be brought about, but, unfortunately, we have not been able to suggest a way acceptable to both sides.
Sir G. Nicholson: Is it not tragic that these events should become the shuttlecock of party politics in this country and merely a party game here while in the Congo people are dying in earnest? Is my right hon. Friend aware that people in this country are not only much disquieted, but much confused about the situation, and will he try to clarify it so that people of all types of thought in this country may know where Her Majesty's Government stand?
Mr. Shinwell: Did not Her Majesty's Government agree that the United Nations force should be sent to the Congo? If the right hon. Gentleman's contention is that the force is not there to impose a political settlement, what is the purpose of the force? Is this not a test of the efficacy of the United Nations?
If it should fail, what is to happen to the United Nations? Is it to be destroyed? Will that suit the policy of Her Majesty's Government, though it might suit the purposes of some of the right hon. Gentlemen's hon. Friends?
What is the proposal of the Government to effect a political settlement? What are they doing to bring that about? If the purpose should fail, what does the right hon. Gentleman expect the United Nations to do?
Mr. Heath: The right hon. Gentleman is quite right; this is not only a very serious situation in the Katanga, but in the Congo as a whole and also for the future of the United Nations. That is why I say, in response to what my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham (Sir G. Nicholson) has said, that I think that the whole House does treat this as a matter of the greatest gravity and does not want it to develop into an inter-party matter.
The purpose of sending the United Nations force to the Congo was to maintain law and order and prevent outside interference in the affairs of the Congo. That it is perfectly entiled to do, and, as I say, the United Nations force has every right to defend itself when there are incidents in which it is attacked—and these have undoubtedly occurred in the last 48 hours, due to the very high tension which exists in the Congo. I have made that perfectly plain. But the United Nations force is not there to impose any solution by force, which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned at the beginning of his question as being its purpose.
Her Majesty's Government have, in the past few weeks, been using all the influence they could with Mr. Tshombe, as has Sir Roy Welensky, to produce a meeting—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Right hon. and hon. Members opposite should not allow their prejudices to govern their judgment in these matters. We have both used our influence to try to
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persuade Mr. Tshombe and Mr. Adoula to come together and sort out the internal constitutional differences in the Congo. So far, we have not been successful, but we shall persist in this effort.
Mr. Fell: May I ask my right hon. Friend, first, whether he knows whether any of the central Government Ministers, or even, possibly, Mr. Adoula or one of his representatives, was due to appear at the Moral Rearmament Conference in Brazil? If this is so, could this have been a reason why President Tshombe was at least considering going to the Moral Rearmament Conference in Brazil to meet them there? Secondly, is it not—
Mr. Speaker: Order. There cannot be any Ministerial responsibility for the visits of those gentleman to a Moral Rearmament Conference in Brazil.
Mr. Fell: But, Mr. Speaker, I have not quite finished my question.
Mr. Speaker: It was out of order. The hon. Gentleman has had his chance.
Mr. Fell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps I have been phrasing my question somewhat clumsily, but it does bear, or could bear, a very close relation to the incidents now taking place in the Congo. May I, therefore, try to rephrase it?
Mr. Speaker: Yes, if the hon. Gentleman will ask a question.
Mr. Fell: May I ask, first, whether my right hon. Friend knows anything about the reason for President Tshombe's proposed visit to the Moral Rearmament Conference in Brazil, and, secondly—
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman's question suffers from another version of the same vice. Mr. Wilson.
Mr. Fell: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. As I am trying very hard to elicit information in response to a rather complicated question, may I have a third chance?
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman will understand that we must have regard to the interests of all of us collectively. We are taking rather a long time about this.
Mr. Fell: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. When you speak

1389
of the interests of all of us, of course, I bow to that completely, but it is surely of the greatest interest to all of us that something should be done to bring to an end what is going on in the Congo.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has fully occupied the time of the House, for the moment. Mr. Wilson.
Mr. H. Wilson: Is the Lord Privy Seal aware that this matter would be less likely to become one thrown across the Floor of the House and more likely to become one in which the whole House could agree if the House could be satisfied about the extent to which the Government are backing up their obligations to the United Nations? In view of the statement that he has made three times now, when he accuses, or seems to accuse, the United Nations of attempting to impose a political settlement, does he suggest that anyone connected with the United Nations operation has suggested going beyond the terms of the instructions under the Security Council resolution? Does he still stand by the acceptance by the United Nations authorities of their obligations under that resolution? Will Her Majesty's Government give all possible help to see that that resolution is carried out?
Mr. Heath: Her Majesty's Government stand fully by their obligations and will support the United Nations in carrying out the resolutions in the way which we have described in the United Nations, with the reservations which we have expressly made when the resolutions have been debated. That is a perfectly sound position for us to adopt.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We cannot debate this matter without a Question before the House.

IRAQ (NATIONALISATION OF BRITISH FIRMS)
Mr. W. Yates: Mr. Speaker. I beg to ask leave to move, under Standing Order No. 9, the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely,
the nationalisation of 6,000 British firms in Iraq by decree of Major-General Kassem,
1390
Prime Minister of Iraq, dated 5th December, 1961.
On matters like this, Mr. Speaker, since I wish to interfere in Government business, or to seek priority over Government business, it is required of me that I should show that the matter is definite. I think that the House and the country are aware that the Leader of Iraq said that he was going to declare open war on British interests in the Middle East. Reported in The Times this morning is a statement of nationalisation. To be more certain in the matter, I took the trouble to see the representative of that newspaper here, and he confirmed that that is correct.
Is this matter urgent? I do not know how long it is since the House paid attention to the breakdown of negotiations in Iraq and probably the threatened nationalisation of the Iraq Petroleum Company. This country is deeply involved. In view of the tense situation in Kuwait earlier this year, and of a meeting of the defence committee this morning, I think that the matter is urgent.
Is it of public importance that 6,000 British firms are nationalised by decree? I think that most hon. Members who know the Middle East realise that the majority of these small firms are doing their best to help our export trade. They are our representatives out there and the people upon whom we rely to obtain our business and to help us to do all that we can to sell British goods in that country. As many of the businesses are ancillary to the Iraq Petroleum Company, the Mosul Petroleum Company and others, I suggest that, instead of debating the question of immigrants, this matter should have priority and that we should have a debate immediately on British interests which are now threatened in Iraq.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member asks leave to move the adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely,
the nationalisation of 6,000 British firms in Iraq by decree of Major-General Kassem, Prime Minister of Iraq, dated 5th December, 1961.
The hon. Gentleman was good enough to give me warning of his intention to

1391
do this, and I made some inquiries, the result of which appeared to be that the relevant legislation was made a long time ago. I wonder whether anyone can help me about the facts of that, because it matters.
Mr. Yates: It is quite clear, I would suggest to you, Sir, that the majority of us here wish to have the best possible relations with the Iraq Government and people. However, the policy of their present Government recently has been—
Mr. Speaker: I did not make myself plain. No doubt the subsidiary legislative operation in Iraq was dated 5th December, but the point is the empowering legislation to do this. Can the hon. Gentleman help me about the date of that? That is what I want to get at.
Mr. Yates: I spoke to the Foreign Office about it this afternoon and I cannot help you, Mr. Speaker, on that point. This is a very important matter. We are here concerned with British interests over twenty-five years. As I understand the Government of Iraq, the normal procedure is that, once the President has made a decree under the present laws, it is law.
Mr. G. Brown: They applied from yesterday.
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Edward Heath): I have been racking my memory, Mr. Speaker. I find that the relevant legislation was passed in February, 1960. and that, when it is implemented, firms receive, in some cases, six months in which to comply and, in other cases, twelve months.
Mr. Speaker: In view of that, I could not accept the Motion because it would not be within the Standing Order.

COMMITTEE OF 100 (SEARCH WARRANTS)
Mrs. Hart: Mr. Speaker, I beg to ask to move the adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely,
"the application by the Metropolitan Police for the issue of warrants under the Official
1392
Secrets Act for the searching during this morning of the offices of the Committee of 100 and of the homes of several of its members, involving the prevention of an individual whose home was being searched from telephoning his solicitor."
I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that this matter is definite. The facts that I have which were given to me at 1.30 p.m. today by a solicitor who is not a member of the Committee of 100—neither myself nor, I believe, any of my hon. Friends are members, because we disapprove of the particular form of activities in which its members engage—are that a raid took place by plainclothes policemen on the offices of the Committee of 100 at 13, Goodwin Street, N.4, on warrants issued by the magistrates under the belief, apparently, that there might be very serious offences under the Official Secrets Act involving incitement and very serious charges if the Official Secrets Act were to be invoked.
In addition, a search was made at the home of Mr. Michael Randle and Mr. Hugh Brock, the editor of Peace News, 79, Lordship Park, N.16, at the home of Mr. Hatton, 181, Algernon Road, S.E.13, and at the home of Mr. Ian Dixon and Mr. Kelly Chandler, 13, Goodwin Street, N.4. Their homes is the Lanercost Community, which is a pacifist community. From there, files, personal address books and personal diaries were taken. During the search of Mr. Dixon's bedroom by Detective Inspector H. G. Laurenson, Mr. Dixon asked permission—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady must help me. I am not allowed to let her make a speech about all these things. She can merely indicate why her application is in order.
Mrs. Hart: I seek only to establish the facts which, I believe, are not known to the House. May I, in one sentence, conclude what I have to say about the facts. Mr. Dixon was refused permission by the detective inspector to use the telephone to make contact with his solicitor.
I suggest that this is a matter of Government responsibility in that it involves the Metropolitan Police, and presumably the Home Secretary gave instructions for the warrants to be applied for under the Official Secrets Act. If he did not—and I see that he

1393
is indicating that he did not—he presumably will have responsibility for whatever charges may be brought.
The matter is urgent because, if these charges are brought, or if any charges are brought, I assume that the matter will be sub judice and that this House will not be in a position to discuss it.
Finally, I suggest that what this House needs to concern itself with is the very grave danger to civil liberties which may arise in view of the kind of sentences which could result if the Official Secrets Act were involved in any charges which may be brought against members of the Committee of 100.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Lady asks leave to move the adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely,
the application by the Metropolitan Police for the issue of warrants under the Official Secrets Act for the searching during this morning of the offices of the Committee of 100 and of the homes of several of its members, involving the prevention of an individual whose home was being searched from telephoning his solicitor.
The hon. Lady will understand that this is a matter that the House would want to discuss at some other time. I cannot accept her application under the Standing Order because it really comes into that class of matters which appear at page 372 of Erskine May and which are generally classified under matters which do not involve more than the ordinary administration of the law. I cannot accept the motion.
Mr. Shinwell: On a point of order. May I inquire, Mr. Speaker, whether we are entitled to ask the Home Secretary whether he is aware of what has happened?
Sir H. Legge-Bourke: On a point of order. In the hope of being third time lucky Mr. Speaker, may I, also, seek to move the adjournment of the House—
Mr. Speaker: I should first hear the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), who had a point of order as to the other matter to raise.
Mr. Shinwell: I am a little doubtful whether it is a legitimate point of order, Mr. Speaker, but I put it to you
1394
because it appears to me that the Home Secretary has responsibility for the Metropolitan Police. All I want to know is whether we are entitled to ask him whether he is aware of what is happening.
Mr. Speaker: I have to tell the right hon. Gentleman, "No".
Mr. Brockway: May I make a submission to you, Mr. Speaker, with reference to the request by my hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart)? You have said that the House would probably like to discuss this matter at a suitable opportunity. As soon as the charges are brought in a court of law, the matter will be sub judice and the House, therefore, will not be in a position to discuss the matter. In those circumstances—
Mr. Speaker: I had the point, because the hon. Lady made it. It does not, however, affect my powers under the Standing Order, because it is not a matter of the kind which I can include within the Standing Order.
Mr. Warbey: Further to that point of order. I understand, Mr. Speaker, that the application by my hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) fails because you have ruled that this is a matter concerning the ordinary administration of the law. I should have thought that what my hon. Friend was saying was that this was a matter concerning not the ordinary administration of the law, but the extraordinary administration of it, and that it was its extraordinary character that justified a debate in the House.
Mr. Speaker: That does not assist me.

CONGO (UNITED NATIONS TROOPS)
Sir H. Legge-Bourke: I beg to ask leave, Mr. Speaker, to move the adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely,
the risk of immediate action being taken in the name of the member States by United Nations troops in the Congo which would be inconsistent with the resolutions of the United Nations governing the use of these troops.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member asks leave to move the adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely,
the risk of immediate action being taken in the name of member States by United Nations troops in the Congo which would be inconsistent with the resolutions of the United Nations governing the use of these troops.
I cannot accept the hon. Member's application, because there is no direct Ministerial responsibility in these circumstances.
Sir H. Legge-Bourke: May I put this further point, Mr. Speaker? We have been told today by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal that conditions in the Congo are extremely tense. Obviously, the only voice which this House has is through Her Majesty's Ministers in so far as any representations to the United Nations may be concerned. May I, therefore, put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that, as we are a member State of the United Nations, this is the only way in which there is any chance of this House expressing its opinion in time?
Mr. Speaker: Yes, but that does not help me as regards the Motion which has been submitted to me.

CONGO (UNITED NATIONS TROOPS)
  BILL PRESENTED
    LAW REFORM (DAMAGES AND SOLATIUM) (SCOTLAND)
    Bill to amend the law of Scotland relating to damages and solatium by extending the entitlement of parents to sue in respect of the death of a child, and of a child to sue in respect of the death of his mother, presented by Mr. Ian MacArthur; supported by Sir James Duncan, Mr. George Thomson, Mr. Stodart, Miss Margaret Herbison, and Mr. Forbes Hendry; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 8th December, and to be printed. [Bill 41.]

DIESEL FUMES
4.4. p.m.
Mr. Rupert Speir: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable new measures to be taken to abate the emission of diesel fumes from vehicles.
The Ten Minutes Rule procedure got off to a remarkable start this Session with a rip-roaring performance yesterday by the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale). I cannot hope to emulate the hon. Member for Oldham, West, or to entertain the House as he did, and I have no wish to detain the House unduly. The Bill which the hon. Member attempted to introduce yesterday was, in any event, a case of "Hale" and farewell.
I would not suggest that the hon. Member's Bill was altogether "sunk without trace", because I am sure that Parliamentary historians, and, indeed, many others, for years to come will look back on the hon. Member's performance yesterday with considerable interest and also with considerable amusement. The fact is, however, that neither the hon. Member's Bill, nor, as he was frank enough to tell the House yesterday, the hon. Member himself, has been saved. I very much hope that I will be somewhat luckier in my attempt to introduce my Bill today.
I must tell the House that this is the third Private Member's Bill which I have sought to introduce. I fear that some hon. Members may well consider me to be an intolerable fusspot and busybody. I confess that I feel a bit of a humbug, because I have often said that this country has had too much legislation in recent years and that what we require is a holiday from further legislation, yet here I am attempting to introduce my third Bill. All I can say in my defence is that all my Bills, like the housemaid's baby, have been small ones. Furthermore, the Bill which I now seek to introduce—a Bill to reduce the danger, damage and nuisance caused by diesel fumes—has the same objective as had my previous Bills, which are now the Litter Act and the Noise Abatement Act. The aim is to try to keep Britain, in this crowded and industrial age, as a pleasant, clean and peaceful country in which to live.

1397
I would add that all three of my Bills have been suggested and asked for by my constituents. It is particularly those of my constituents who live alongside main roads, especially in the hilly districts of Northumberland, of whom I am thinking today, because sometimes their lives are made almost intolerable by the belching of diesel fumes. Indeed, it is not only they who are sufferers from diesel fumes. My fellow motorists also suffer, both from the skidding caused by diesel fumes depositing oily soot on the highways and from the bad visibility caused by dark or black diesel smoke.
It is interesting to note that, in the first instance, both the Litter Act and the Noise Abatement Act were opposed by the Government of the day. I cannot say that I have had much encouragement so far from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport for introducing today's Bill. However, although my right hon. Friend may be somewhat lukewarm about the Bill, it has, nevertheless, found considerable favour in other quarters. The public regard diesel fumes as being not only annoying and sometimes almost asphyxiating, but also as being entirely unnecessary.
There is no doubt that the call made by His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh at the last annual meeting of the Automobile Association, when he asked for action to be taken to curb the menace to health and safety of excessive diesel fumes has given this campaign, if I may say so with respect, a great fillip. A little later, His Royal Highness, in another context, tendered some advice about "gentlemen pulling their fingers out". In this case, I rather think that he would like the reverse to happen. At any rate, in view of His Royal Highness's interest in this problem, I believe that it will be comparatively easy for it to obtain the Royal Assent. It is the early stages of the Bill which cause me some concern, and, in particular, the attitude of the Minister.
The Bill would seek to abolish, or, at any rate, to abate, the nuisance and danger caused by vehicles emitting dark diesel fumes. It would seek to do so by empowering the Minister to make regulations under the Road Traffic Acts to enforce the use of all or any of a number of different devices, be they additives to put in the fuel, or filters or scrubbers or for the use of vertical exhausts.
1398
I do not say that all these methods are yet practicable. It is probable that some are still premature, but in this field, as in so many others, the wind of change is blowing and almost daily new proposals and new devices are coming forward for the elimination of diesel fumes. One difficulty one comes across in dealing with a complex matter of this kind is the contradictory advice one gets from experts. They do not by any means always agree on this subject, but as someone has said, what is an expert but the common man away from home?
Anyway, all the experts agree that proper maintenance of the engines is the best answer to this problem, for if the diesel engine is properly maintained and driven, there is no need at all for objectionable black smoke to be discharged. The prime aim of the Bill would, therefore, be prevention rather than cure. The aim is to encourage proper maintenance. Today, with a whole scale of new devices and new meters coming on the market it is comparatively easy to achieve the objective of correct maintenance.
Once again, other countries are, unfortunately, ahead of us in our attack on this problem. America, Switzerland, Belgium, Germany already have their legislation. Lebanon, I believe, has even gone so far as to solve this problem by banning the use of diesels altogether.
Here, the very reverse is happening. The number of diesel vehicles on the roads of Britain has quadrupled in the last ten years. Their number has increased, in fact, from 88,000 in 1950 to 374,000 in 1960. I suggest to the House that this steady growth in the use of diesel vehicles is all the more reason for Parliament reviewing the problem and taking reasonable steps to prevent these diesels from becoming too much of a menace. I very much hope, therefore, that a Bill on the lines I have indicated will he acceptable to this House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Speir, Dr. Broughton, Wing Commander Bullus, Sir M. Stoddart-Scott, Mr. Thorpe, Mrs. White, Mr. Ellis Smith, Dame Irene Ward, Mr. Francis Noel-Baker, Mr. Parker, Mr. Ronald Bell, and Mr. Russell.

DIESEL FUMES
  DIESEL FUMES
  Bill to enable new measures to be taken to abate the emission of diesel fumes from vehicles, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday, 6th April, and to be printed. [Bill 42.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  COMMONWEALTH IMMIGRANTS BILL
  Considered in Committee [Progress, 5th December].
  [Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]

  COMMONWEALTH IMMIGRANTS BILL

    Clause 1.—(APPLICATION OF PART I.)
    4.14 p.m.
    The Chairman: In calling the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) to move the first Amendment on the Notice Paper, I would inform the Committee that I think it would be convenient to discuss with it Amendments Nos. 7 to 15, except Amendment No. 9, which deals with the Republic of Ireland and is the subject of a separate Amendment. All those Amendments are to page 1, line 19.
    Mrs. Barbara Castle: I beg to move, in page 1, line 19, at the end to insert:
    (d) a citizen of Ghana.
    As you have pointed out, Sir Gordon, it is common sense that this Amendment and the other Amendments you have mentioned should be taken together, because it was the purpose of the hon. Members on this side of the Committee that these Amendments should be considered as a whole since the argument for one of these Amendments is the argument for all of them.
    In moving to delete Ghana from the operation of Part I of the Bill I am taking Ghana as just one example of the self-governing territories of the Commonwealth. The effect of this group of Amendments would be to except independent members of the Commonwealth from the operation of Part I. Clearly, it is the intention of this side of the Committee that this group of Amendments
    1400
    should be complementary to the first Amendment which was moved yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition.
    I hope that the Home Secretary, having yesterday objected to that Amendment, will not now treat us today to another tendentious taunt that in moving this Amendment and speaking to its accompanying Amendments we are showing that we are in favour of the principle of control. I should have thought that it was as obvious today as it was obvious yesterday that in seeking, as we are, to amend Part I, if not to get rid of it, we are whittling down the principle of control rather than accepting it.
    I also hope that the Home Secretary will not repeat his argument of yesterday that in relation to Part I and seeking to secure success for our first Amendment yesterday and for this Amendment and the others, except Amendment No. 9, we have shown that we are putting forward wrecking Amendments. That comes very ill from the Home Secretary, who announced to us yesterday that he was taking Ireland out of the Bill. It is certainly a wrecking Amendment of the ostensible purpose of the Bill to take the Irish out of it, because that at once alters the whole colour and complexion and effect of Part I of the Bill. When, on Second Reading, the Home Secretary was asked why the Irish were not to be included in the Bill, he replied that one of the reasons—
    The Chairman: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady, but she will appreciate that the Republic of Ireland is mentioned in the next Amendment and not in this series.
    Mrs. Castle: I appreciate that, Sir Gordon. But if I may be allowed to complete my sentence, the fact that it is in order may become clear. I am using this merely as an illustration of my argument on this group of Amendments. The Home Secretary argued that it was not necessary to include the Irish in Part I, because Part II would still apply to them. That argument relates to this group of Amendments, also.
    Even though we lost our battle over the first Amendment which we moved yesterday, we are still trying to limit the damage done by the Bill, the damage

    1401
    done by the introduction of control. There are some powerful arguments in favour of the limitation of the operation of the control measures, as proposed in the Amendments. In opposing our efforts to get the Colonial Territories removed from the operation of Part I, the Home Secretary himself said—
    The Chairman: The hon. Lady keeps going astray. We dealt with that Amendment yesterday.
    Mrs. Castle: I appreciate that, but the Home Secretary used certain arguments in connection with that Amendment and I am about to point out that they support my case for these Amendments. The right hon. Gentleman said that we were wrong to try to take the Colonial Territories out of the Bill because they formed a diminishing part of the Commonwealth. One of his complaints against us was that a number of the Colonial Territories would become independent members of the Commonwealth and would, therefore, be removed from the exemption rights which we were trying to apply to them.
    If that was his complaint against our first Amendment yesterday, he cannot object to these Amendments. This group of Amendments covers and includes former Colonial Territories which have now become independent and self-governing. As the Home Secretary rightly pointed out yesterday, the colonial element in the Commonwealth is diminishing and an increasing number of territories is becoming independent and of Dominion status. It is the group covered by our Amendments which form the solid base of our multi-racial Commonwealth.
    Every hon. Member will agree that greater freedom of movement within the Commonwealth is a goal at which we should aim. Freedom of movement between the members of any association forms an essential link in the existence of that association. That is one of the reasons why the right to freedom of movement is one of the basic elements of the Treaty of Rome, which set up the European Economic Community. If there is to be a cohesive community which is to develop an organic unity, then freedom of movement among its peoples is an essential part of it.
    1402
    Article 48 of the Treaty of Rome and the Reports of the Commission of the European Economic Community have made it clear that the principle of the freedom of movement is vital to the whole idea of a European community, Therefore, if the Commonwealth is to continue to thrive with anything like a parallel vitality and an inner power of growth as is foreseen for the Common Market, the establishment of the principle of freedom of movement within the Commonwealth is essential.
    Some of the newly independent territories which are covered by the Amendments have been setting the Mother Country an excellent example in this direction. Ghana and India. for example, ever since they were granted their independence, have responded to that greater freedom by attracting more people to their shores from this country rather than repelling them.
    India has been glad to welcome people from this country to work side by side with her own people on their problems.
    I am sure that everyone will agree that there are more people from this country now working in Ghana than there were during the period when she was technically subordinate to our rule. Both those countries are ardent supporters of the Commonwealth idea and they know that it is a violation of the Commonwealth idea to close doors to the free flow of traffic between this country and their territories.
    It is the duty of this House of Parliament, which is the Legislature of the Mother Country, to encourage the tendency towards greater freedom of movement. It is true that some constraints on that freedom of movement within the Commonwealth have been put up by some of the Dominions which we are now discussing, but we ought not to welcome that. We should be the one to set an example the other way. If we put half the energy and enthusiasm and faith into the development of our Commonwealth idea as some of us now seem prepared to put into the development of the idea of a unified Europe, we would be taking all kinds of positive initiatives to get rid of what barriers already exist.

    1403
    The Commission of the European Economic Community can set us a considerable example in this direction. In Europe, the Six are finding ways of breaking down the barriers between their member States, and we ought to be doing the same within the Commonwealth. How can the Commonwealth hope to survive or hold its own against the European idea if we prevent the same constructive attitude towards it as the pro-Europeans take towards Europe? What encouragement does the Bill give to this unification of the Commonwealth and the removal of the barriers to that unification? Far from encouraging the tendency towards freer movement among members of the Commonwealth, it is deliberately discouraging it.
    That is why, despite the fact that we would have liked the Colonial Territories to have been exempted from Part I, we still believe that, even if they are to be retained by the Government's edict, it is still important for the growth of the Commonwealth idea that these Amendments should be accepted and that as our Colonial Territories move towards greater and then complete independence, they, too, should benefit from this principle of freedom of movement which is enshrined in the Amendments.
    4.30 p.m.
    I suggest, however, that there is another special reason why these territories should be exempt from control, and that is that a large number of them are in process of being cut out of the right of association with the Common Market. According to reports of the progress of the negotiations in Brussels, lists are being drawn up at present of probable and possible Commonwealth countries which could be associated with the Common Market.
    According to a report in The Times yesterday, it looks as if there will be two lists. On the one hand, there will be the group of African States and the Caribbean which may be allowed to have association with the Common Market just as certain French African territories have been given it and as the Dutch Antilles have been given it. The Caribbean does not look as if it will provide a stumbling block in this direction.
    1404
    But The Times goes on to say:
    "Britain has not put forward Canada, Australia, and New Zealand …"
    for association,
    " . . and the Six will not accept India or Pakistan. Germany, it is believed, raised objections to considering the association of India, whose population would far out-number the entire Community. Whether the Six would consider any Asian countries—Malaya, for instance—remains to be seen. … The French have not shown any eagerness to commit themselves on possible associates from the Commonwealth, because of prior concern for French Africa …".
    The effect of that would be that, although some formula might be found for associating certain of the African States of the Commonwealth and the Caribbean with the Common Market, it seems clear—
    The Temporary Chairman (Mr. W. R. Williams): I am sorry, so soon after having taken the Chair, to have to suggest to the hon. Lady that I think she is getting rather wide even of the fairly wide Amendments which are under consideration by the Committee at the moment. I hope that she will bear that in mind.
    Mrs. Castle: I would ask you, Mr. Williams, just to allow me to develop my argument a little further. I believe that this is strictly relevant to my argument why we should exempt this group of countries from control under the Bill.
    Although the Committee has not exempted the Colonies from control under the Bill, the argument I am putting forward—it has previously been argued in connection with discussions about who should or should not be exempt under Part I of the Bill; the argument was put forward yesterday—is that there is a widely held belief that the Government are ready to close the pipeline to the Commonwealth because they are in process of negotiating opening the pipeline to Europe through the Common Market negotiations.
    Article 48 of the Treaty of Rome makes it clear that if we join the Common Market there must be no discrimination on our part or on the part of our fellow members against foreign workers from member States. Therefore, unless the United Kingdom applies in this Bill controls against British subjects, once we join the Common Market

    1405
    other members of the Six will not be able to do so. It is for that reason that I am suggesting that if, as it clear from these reports, there is a possibility that Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India and Pakistan—all countries covered by these Amendments—will not be allowed to associate with the Common Market at the same time as we become associated with it—
    The Temporary Chairman: Order. I am quite satisfied now, after listening further. What we are trying to do here is to advance arguments about whether these countries should be exempt, and we must confine ourselves to possible arguments in support of the Amendments.
    Mrs. Castle: Yes, Mr. Williams, but my argument is that unless, in the Bill, we exempt these countries from our control provisions, they will, in fact, have had their access to Europe closed.
    The Temporary Chairman: Order. I am sorry, but I must ask the hon. Lady now to depart from that form of argument, because I do not think that it is permissible under this series of Amendments. 1 hope that she will accept my Ruling.
    Mrs. Castle: Mr. Williams, without any disrespect, I really do wish to urge this point upon you, because I believe that it is a point of considerable substance. What we do under this Bill is important. It is a Bill to abolish the principle of the open door. It is relevant, and has been held relevant by the Chair in our discussions up to now, to consider the fact that we are also discussing the principle of the open door in Europe and how it will affect, and how far it will affect, different Governments.
    The Temporary Chairman: No. I am sorry, but I cannot follow that argument at all. We cannot reiterate all sorts of arguments on all sorts of Amendments. The purpose of dividing up the Amendments is to deal with specific points. I hope that the hon. Lady will now finally accept my interpretation of what is in order.
    Mr. Donald Chapman: On a point of order, Mr. Williams. May I draw your attention
    1406
    to the discussion which took place yesterday, which is reported in column 1265 of the OFFICIAL REPORT? Yesterday, we were arguing the case for exempting Colonies from the terms of the Bill, and part of the argument of my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker), when winding up the debate, was the disadvantage suffered by our own Colonies under the Bill compared with the Colonies of other European countries, and the whole effect of this on the Common Market situation.
    I would point out that the discussion covered about three columns, and that the speakers were never ruled out of order, which surely shows that the future of the Commonwealth vis-à-vis the Common Market is certainly in order under the Bill.
    The Temporary Chairman: Fortunately or unfortunately, I am responsible only for what I interpret the rules to be on the Amendments now before the Committee, and my interpretation is that the Ruling which I have given is a perfectly sound one on these Amendments. I do not want to receive any more submissions on that aspect.
    Mr. Leslie Hale: On that point of order, Mr. Williams. I understood you to say that the Amendments had been divided. I understood your predecessor in the Chair to say that all the Amendments, with the exception of the Amendment about the Republic of Ireland, were being taken together. I also understand that my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) is actually moving the first Amendment on the Notice Paper today, that relating to citizens of Ghana. The rest of us, if we participate in the discussion, will be applying our minds to a whole series of Amendments, excluding that relating to the Republic of Ireland. May I—
    The Temporary Chairman: Perhaps I may interrupt the hon. Gentleman, because he is not travelling the same road as I am. What I said was, of course, that the purpose of putting down Amendments to a Bill was to have specific debates on specific subjects. I was not talking about the division of the Amendments that we are now considering and taking a number of them together. What I was saying was that the purpose of

    1407
    putting down Amendments to a Bill is to have tidy debates on specific issues. I think that my Ruling is a perfectly sound one.
    Mr. Hale: May I seek your guidance, Mr. Williams, on the point which I have in mind, which, I think, is a perfectly genuine one? We are informed that a political refugee from Ghana is at this moment in Sierra Leone. Surely, it would be appropriate to discuss what would be the position if a political refugee from Ghana living in Sierra Leone came to London, and whether he should be deported to Ghana or not? If that be true, I suggest that the point which my hon. Friend was putting—which also raises the question of a citizen of Ghana living in France and seeking to come to Britain under the provisions of the Treaty of Rome, which I understood to be the point my hon. Friend was dealing with, or, indeed, the position of a citizen of Ghana domiciled in China being deported to Ghana and left to pay his own expenses of transport back home—concerns matters that may be relevant to this discussion.
    The Temporary Chairman: I have no doubt at all that these point could be relevant to certain issues, but I do not think that they would be relevant to the issues before us now.
    Mrs. Castle: I am suggesting to the Committee that there is a reason why we should accept this Amendment and thus discriminate in the Bill in favour of the territories mentioned in the Amendments, because our Colonial Territories in the Caribbean and Africa will have the right of direct association with Europe, whereas these territories, apparently, will only have a right of association through this country and through their right of access to this country.
    I suggest that this is a matter of considerable substance and is a reason why we should keep that right of access inviolate; otherwise, they would be discriminated against, as compared with the Commonwealth, when this country joins Europe and becomes an integral part of another community, in which there is free movement of labour. That is why it is extremely relevant for us to discuss the importance of maintaining free movement of labour in our Com-
    1408
    monwealth, because they will be going into another community, in which we shall be committed to it.
    I suggest, therefore, in regard to these territories, that we must keep this principle of the open door inviolate, because, in a year's time, when we are members of the Common Market, we shall then find that these people are placed in a specially invidious position in regard to circulating in a wider community of which this country will then have become a member, probably before this House ever has a chance of discussing this Bill, or this kind of provision. It is impossible for us to discuss the free movement, and the principle of it, at all, bearing in mind that in a very short while, this Parliament and this country will be part of a wider community.
    The Temporary Chairman: I do not want to get emotional at all about this. My object is to get a tidy debate on the issues before us. I hope now—and I say this advisedly—that the hon. Lady will come to a further part of her speech.
    Mrs. Castle: I should be glad to do so, provided that the Minister will reply to that point.
    Mr. John Harvey: On a point of order. I am sorry to labour this point, Mr. Williams, and I do not wish to embarrass you in the Ruling you have given. My only worry about this is that the hon. Lady has said things and has been allowed to develop this argument for so long, and there have been so many inaccuracies in what she has been allowed to say, that some of us will be placed in a difficult position if it is now ruled that we cannot talk about it, because it will enable this crop of inaccuracies to get a good deal of publicity without being challenged. I respect very much your Ruling, and in many ways I agree with it—[Laughter.]—I am sorry for that. In every way, I accept it. It should go on record that by no means all of us share the view that the hon. Lady has been allowed to get away with.
    The Temporary Chairman: It is very nice of the hon. Member to try to help me out of a difficulty, but unfortunately he is putting me into a worse difficulty. However, I may assure him and all other hon. Members who may catch my eye on both sides of the Committee, that if they

    1409
    transgress in the way in which I have been trying to prevent the hon. Lady transgressing I shall ask them not to pursue that line. It is perhaps unfortunate that certain things have been said, but I tried my best to stop the hon. Lady. I will not countenance anybody else going out of order, because I have been trying to stop her.
    4.45 p.m.
    Mrs. Castle: I should be only too delighted if the hon. Member for Barry (Mr. Gower) were to be allowed to try to answer my argument, because I feel that it would strengthen my case.
    I suggest, finally, that the Government's decision announced yesterday that Southern Ireland is to be exempt from this part of the Bill makes Part I intolerable, in its present form and without these Amendments. As the Home Secretary made quite clear yesterday, what we are to do under Part I is to tell Southern Ireland that we will allow her citizens, who are not even British subjects—because the Republic of Ireland is not a member of the Commonwealth—to come in, provided that she will conspire and collaborate with us to keep our citizens out of her territory. This is to make the Bill highly discriminatory, and some of us believe that it makes it discriminatory in colour.
    The Temporary Chairman: Order. I am very sorry and I would not intervene if I did not think it my duty to the Committee. My understanding is that we are not discussing the Republic of Ireland in this series of Amendments, but an opportunity will be provided later for hon. Members to do that. I hope therefore, that we shall not waste any more time on the Republic of Ireland.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Surely, it would be proper, while not discussing again the whole question of the Republic of Ireland, to discuss that aspect of it which affects the people we are now discussing. In this case, which I understand is the point which my hon. Friend was putting, it is very difficult to discuss these Amendments about these Commonwealth citizens unless we can discuss the effect upon their status of certain other things that happen under this Bill. I agree that it should not be an elaborate argument, but it seems to me to be an essential part of any sensible
    1410
    discussion on the Amendments before us.
    The Temporary Chairman: I think it is essential that we should have some sort of order in the debate. The wider we spread ourselves the more difficult it will be to deal with the issues which the hon. Lady and other hon. Members want to discuss. I have no objection to the point being referred to in passing, but it is not the substance of the debate on this series of Amendments.
    Mr. Sydney Silverman: On a point of order. I think that the Committee will be grateful for what you have said, Mr. Williams, at this stage. Surely, it would be conceded to be relevant to an argument whether citizens of Ghana should or should not be restricted in their entrance into the United Kingdom to compare their condition under the Bill with the condition of other analogous 'persons such as those in Ireland? I respectfully accept your Ruling that it is not for us at this stage to discuss whether citizens of Eire should or should not be allowed here or should or should not be affected, but in view of the fact that the Home Secretary has said that, at any rate in operation, citizens of Southern Ireland will not be affected by these restrictions, it is surely open to hon. Members of the Committee to argue that it is one of the relevant considerations in deciding the question we are discussing, namely, whether citizens of Ghana should come in or not.
    Mr. Chapman: Further to that point of order. An exactly parallel situation arose yesterday when we were discussing very similar Amendments dealing with other parts of the Commonwealth and points of order were raised on how far Ireland should be mentioned. One of your predecessors in the Chair, Mr. Williams, then said:
    "An opportunity will occur later—on Amendment No. 141—to deal purely with the Irish question. But as the debate has gone from the two leading speeches from the Front Bench, Ireland has been recently mentioned and undoubtedly it will not be out of order for hon. Members on the back benches to follow that example to a certain extent, bearing in mind that Amendment No. 141 will be debated later."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th December, 1961; Vol. 650, c. 1192.]
    This is an exactly parallel situation to that occasion when without our wanting

    1411
    to debate the Irish question it was admitted that we had to bring it in.
    The Temporary Chairman: As I have said before, one of the fortunes or misfortunes of the occupant of the Chair is that he is not here continuously throughout the debate, and I am responsible only for what I do. Whilst I am allowing some liberty for people to make reference to other countries for the purpose of building their arguments on the issue before us, I think that we should not overwork that part of it if we are to deal with the debate in a proper manner.
    Mrs. Castle: My purpose is not to discuss the merits of whether Ireland should be in or out, but the consequence of the relevant decision on other members of the Commonwealth named in this series of Amendments. Whether or not the omission of Ireland means that there is no colour discrimination in the Bill, it definitely means that there is discrimination in it against members of the Commonwealth in favour of persons who are not members, namely the Irish.
    What the Government are saying is that the Southern Irish can come into this country provided that they help us to keep Ghanaians, Canadians, Indians and Australians out of the country, and I suggest that this is to deal a grave blow once again at the unity and morale of the whole Commonwealth. What is to become of the value of Commonwealth citizenship if this is the relationship that we are to establish under the Bill? It is because one section, the Irish, have been relieved of discrimination that I suggest that it strengthens our case that discrimination should not now continue against Australians, Canadians, Indians, Ghanaians, Pakistanis and all the others mentioned in the Amendments.
    I should like to say a few words in conclusion to the Home Secretary. In answer to the Amendments he will probably repeat something of the same argument that he used against us on the first Amendment yesterday, by complaining that what we would do by exempting from control one section of the Commonwealth would be to draw an invidious distinction between citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies and the rest of the members of the Commonwealth. Our answer to him on that
    1412
    point is that he is drawing an equally invidious distinction between citizens of Southern Ireland and members of the Commonwealth. Therefore, the argument of invidious distinction will not hold.
    If we had our way we would not make any distinctions of any kind between any Commonwealth citizens in this matter, because we would get rid of control altogether, but we have not succeeded and cannot succeed in doing that. Some will be subject to that control and therefore an invidious distinction has already been created. I do not believe, however, that the people of our Colonies would begrudge our making this distinction in favour of our independent self-governing territories, hoping and believing as we do that they will eventually join the happy band and that they will be considered worthy of the free access to this country which we are now giving to the Southern Irish.
    Mr. Raymond Gower: The hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) has moved an Amendment and spoken to a series of Amendments for the exclusion from the provisions of the Bill of certain self-governing territories within the British Commonwealth. In the latter stage of her remarks she pertinently inquired what would be the value of the Commonwealth association if we were to include these territories under the Bill. That was a proper and pertinent question for her to ask, but I would point out with respect that I as a citizen of the Commonwealth cannot freely pass into all the territories she has mentioned. I cannot go without let or hindrance to Australia, Canada and most of the territories named in the Amendments. Nevertheless, although I have not that unlimited right to go into those territories I yet deem the Commonwealth association to be of great value to me and to my country.
    I suggest, with great respect to the hon. Lady, that she has been speaking to the Amendments as though what is envisaged by the operation of the Clauses which she wishes to amend is the utter exclusion of the residents and peoples of these territories from the British Isles. She must know that the only thing that is conceived and intended is some control of the rate of entry from these territories.
    Mr. Dingle Foot: Does the hon. Member not agree that any British subject can enter India at present without any obstacle being put in his way and without a visa being required?
    Mr. Gower: The circumstances of the two countries are somewhat different. If India were populated to the same density as is the United Kingdom her population would be incredibly larger.
    Miss Jennie Lee: Is the hon. Member aware that there is a vast unemployment problem in India and, therefore, there is generosity on the part of Indians when we from this country are allowed to go there with complete freedom of access and are allowed to obtain jobs there?
    Mr. Gower: A man who goes there from this country either goes there with money to support himself or goes to employment which his firm provides there and in no case competes for employment with the nationals of India.
    I claim that my argument is still valid and that in most of the countries named in the Amendments I should not be able to have uncontrolled entry as a right at any time. In spite of that, I deem the association of this country with those countries and those countries with this country of paramount importance in the world today. I recognise the difficulties under which the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn was labouring, as we all must labour, in discussing a series of Amendments about territories which although they have something in common have a great many differences. I do not want to be unfair in this observation and I make it only in passing, but I suggest that the general case for the exclusion of these territories from the provisions of the Bill is decidely weaker than the case for the exclusion of the Colonial Territories.
    I should like to give my reasons for saying that. Firstly, there is a fair assumption that a country which remains a Colony has not yet either the political attainments or the economic power to stand on its own feet. To that extent, any kind of restriction must be deemed to be likely to bear more heavily on such a territory than on a dominion or self-governing country. When any country accepts self-governing institutions
    1414
    and independence, inside or outside the Commonwealth, it is a fair assumption that, in the opinion of its nationals, it has reached such a degree of political progress and economic self-sufficiency that it can contemplate such a step without fatal consequences to its nationals.
    5.0 p.m.
    Therefore, without over-stating the position, I submit that the case for the exclusion of these countries may be somewhat weaker than the case for exclusion of those territories which we may call colonial. It would be positively undesirable to exclude Australia, Canada and New Zealand. That would surely increase the impression of this being a colour Bill. If we excluded them, people would validly say that we were excluding what used to be called the old white Dominions, but were including the countries where most of the inhabitants were not of British stock. Therefore, it would be positively undesirable that Australia, Canada and New Zealand should be excluded, when it has already been decided that certain Colonial Territories shall be included.
    Let us consider for a moment the nature of these countries. I have already mentioned one aspect which contrasts vividly with the position of the United Kingdom. In relation to their present populations, most of them are much more spacious than the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Chapman: What about jobs?
    Mr. Gower: I will come to that. At the moment I am talking about space and the availability of accommodation in terms of space for the inhabitants. The hon. Member may snigger, but a snigger is not always an intelligent comment.
    Another very important aspect about Ghana, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, India, Pakistan and Ceylon, is that, in the last decade, or in some cases in the last year or so, they have embarked upon the rather difficult job of self-government. They are thus the very countries which can ill-afford to lose large numbers of their most adventurous and effective people. Although it may very well suit our economy and our economic needs to take some of their best people, it may be most undesirable and injurious to these countries in tackling the great

    1415
    economic tasks which they face. While we may plead that it is noble to allow and to encourage the idea of what the hon. Lady described as the "open door" it may be most undesirable for those countries.
    Mr. Fenner Brockway: Would not the hon. Member admit that a large number of these immigrants who come here become much more efficient in their technical knowledge and ability by having been in this country, and that they then return home with an added contribution to the economic life of their countries?
    Mr. Gower: I accept that, and such people will continue to come in under this Bill. [HON. MEMBERS: "Will they? "] Yes. As I understand it, the only people who will be affected in the first place will be any excessive number who come here to look for jobs without any certainty of finding them immediately. The people referred to by the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) are the very people who are likely to come here if not with an assured job but with every expectation of getting one soon after arrival.
    Mr. Brockway: I am sure that the hon. Member knows from his knowledge of these people, as I know from mine, that large numbers of them come to this country without any fixed jobs, but that after being here a week or perhaps two weeks they find jobs. It is in the experience they gain in those jobs that they improve their technical knowledge and ability, which they can then take back home.
    Mr. Gower: To that degree that may well be so in the present haphazard method, but I do not think it will necessarily be the case in the future. I imagine that the sort of arrangements now obtaining in recruiting people for the British Transport Commission, for instance, may well obtain in future in the case of many of those referred to by the hon. Member.
    Mrs. Castle: The hon. Gentleman is getting his argument upside down. He began by saying that the newly independent countries were the very ones which ought to retain skilled workers for their own use, and that we should not be
    1416
    attracting those workers or allowing them to come here. But these are the very people who, according to the Bill, will get the vouchers from the Ministry of Labour, because those vouchers are to be given to those
    "… who possess training, skill or educational qualifications likely to be useful in this country."
    What these countries need is a little help in having less skilled workers trained and sent back home.
    Mr. Gower: The hon. Lady mentioned some of the people involved, but students and others have come here in the past and will continue in the future, it is also pertinent to note that so many of the best people of these territories come here as students or for industrial training and perhaps tend to remain here. That is a loss to their countries.
    The people who will be affected by the Clause are mostly those who are not coming here either to be students or to take up employment which they have a fair expectation of getting. In other words, there is no likelihood that the Bill will be used to stop the necessary arrival of the sort of people we can accommodate, even from the large countries which the hon. Lady wants to except from the provisions, countries like India and Pakistan. She will recognise that the argument that people could come too quickly would seem to apply more to India and Pakistan than to anywhere else, because they have such unlimited reservoirs of population.
    There is a lot in what the hon. Lady says. I am not suggesting that the issues in this are—
    Sir Leslie Plummer: Black and white?
    Mr. Gower:—right and wrong. I chose not to use the words "black and white". These are very difficult issues and we on this side of the Committee have made it clear from the beginning that legislation of this kind is something we hoped always to avoid and which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has only introduced with the greatest reluctance.
    Those of my hon. Friends who support the Bill do so with reluctance. There is nothing wrong in that, and our reluctance is understandable. We have

    1417
    to face the nature of the problem which has certainly arisen and which in some parts of the country is very real. I believe that the Clause as it stands will mean that we will be able to control this problem by ensuring that the people from these Dominions will, on arrival, be able to have reasonable conditions and reasonable facilities, and that we will not be at the mercy of sudden increases, in arrivals, or seasonal changes, or unforeseen increases in the number coming here. Bearing in mind what I have said about the exclusion of the white Dominions being most undesirable, I hope that on reflection the Committee will feel that the inclusion of these Amendments would destroy the Bill and, indeed, would have unfortunate consequences in relation to the Dominions refered to in them.
    Mr. Denis Howell: I am grateful for the opportunity to follow the hon. Member for Barry (Mr. Gower). The Committee is discussing matters of great complexity. I do not know whether my hon. Friends share my view, but I am fast coming to the conclusion that not only can this Bill not work under any circumstances, but that it is not intended to work.
    When one considers the statements which are being made, the exceptions which are being written into the Bill, the statement of the Prime Minister to Sir Grantley Adams that the Bill is to be interpreted liberally, and the statement of the Home Secretary yesterday that he and his officers will interpret the Bill liberally, one wonders who will be kept out, and why the Bill was ever brought in.
    The hon. Member for Barry assisted me in coming to the conclusion that this Bill is one of the greatest pieces of political confidence trickery perpetrated on this country for many years. Whatever form the Bill finally takes, it is becoming pretty clear that very few people, if any, will be kept out of this country, if we take notice of what we have been told. The hon. Gentleman said two things. First, that the Bill was intended to control the rate of entry. There is nothing in the Bill about doing that. The Home Secretary said nothing about there being a quota system and only a certain number of people being allowed into this country. There is nothing to
    1418
    suggest, as the hon. Member for Barry did, that the Bill will control the rate of entry.
    Mr. Gower: There is a residuary power for the issuing of vouchers. It is an executive power, and will provide some form of control. I admit that it is a limited power, but it is a residuary power which can be used.
    Mr. Howell: I am coming to the voucher system, which was the second point made by the hon. Gentleman.
    The Home Secretary has been careful to say to Sir Grantley Adams, and to the Committee, that the Bill will be interpreted in the most liberal way, whatever form it finally takes. We all know what the right hon. Gentleman means by that. It means what the hon. Member for Barry said. It means that the Bill will affect only those who come here to obtain employment and not those who obtain employment before arrival. In other words, provided an intending immigrant can get a voucher in his own country, the Bill will be liberally interpreted and there will be no restriction on his entry here.
    If an intending immigrant writes to a hospital, or to a transport authority, or to one of the many employers in this country who want labour, and asks whether employment is available and is assured of a job, he will be all right. If an intending immigrant writes to the Birmingham Hospital and asks, "Have you a vacancy for a cook, or a porter, or a domestic", and the hospital writes back and says, "Yes, we can employ you", the man will automatically get a voucher. That is what the hon. Gentleman said.
    Mr. Gower Mr. Gower indicated dissent.
    Mr. Howell: It is no good the hon. Gentleman shaking his head. If the voucher system does not mean that, it means nothing at all.
    Mr. Ede: Does it not mean that a circular will go out from this country saying, "If you want to be a domestic, we can provide you with the best job in the world"?
    5.15 p.m.
    Mr. Howell: I am obliged to my right hon. Friend, because that is the logical point I was hoping to make next.

    1419
    We know that the Birmingham city transport undertaking has for a long time had recruiting officers in Dublin to recruit labour for its buses. Without such labour the bus services would have come to a halt a long time ago. Also, as 25 per cent. of the labour force of the Birmingham city transport undertaking consists of coloured West Indians, any reduction in the number of West Indians coming here would obviously have a serious effect on the system. My right hon. Friend is right. The logic of this is that somebody will go to the West Indies and establish recruiting agencies to provide labour in this country.
    Whether the recruiting agencies are established by public authorities, or by private employers who in prosperous times want more labour, or whether the individual from any of these countries writes and obtains proof in writing that a job is waiting for him, the result will be the same. Provided he can establish that he has a job to go to, it will not be possible to keep him out if the Bill is interpreted liberally.
    The hon. Gentleman's point is that the only people who will be kept out under the Bill will be those who have not taken the trouble to write, and therefore cannot produce evidence that they have a job to go to. I submit that when the Bill is on the Statute Book and it becomes known that provided one has evidence in writing that a job is available, the intending immigrant who has relatives in this country will be supplied with such written evidence by them. As a result, very few people, if any, will be kept out.
    I am amazed that we are in the midst of this tremendous Commonwealth crisis, for such it is, and that these protracted discussions are taking place for no purpose.
    Mr. Nigel Fisher: The hon. Gentleman is right about skilled workers and those with pre-arranged jobs, but he is not right in saying that the Bill does not take power to control the entry of what I call the residuary quota, that is to say, the unskilled man with no pre-arranged job to go to. These are the people who will be most affected, and this is one of the reasons why I am unhappy about the Bill.
    1420
    We do not know how many will fall in that category, because we have had no information from my right hon. Friend about them, and many West Indians and others who are not skilled and have no pre-arranged jobs to go to will be controlled under what I call the residuary quota in the Bill.
    Mr. Howell: The hon. Gentleman is right, and I am obliged to him.
    Once the Bill is on the Statute Book, everybody who wants to come here will know that the thing to do is not to arrive in this country without evidence of a job to go to, but to produce evidence and apply for a voucher.
    It will not matter whether they are skilled or unskilled, because most of the vacancies in our great industrial towns are for unskilled workers. I do not want to take the argument too far, but in one of our great hospitals in Birmingham, for which I have some responsibility, there is a crisis over food. It is quite impossible to get people to cook and prepare food, especially in the evening. The only people we have who will do this in the evenings are immigrants from across the Atlantic. If anybody writes to me, saying, "Can you fix me up with a job?" or "Is there any employment?" I shall be in duty bound, as a member of a management committee responsible for many of the large hospitals in the centre of Birmingham, to say, "Yes", because at the moment we are not able to give the service that should be provided for the people of Birmingham.
    When this procedure starts to work, anybody who wants to apply for a permit will be able to get one, because he will easily be able to produce the necessary evidence.
    Mr. Leslie Seymour: Does the hon. Member agree that the system of permits now proposed will remedy the situation existing in Birmingham, where hundreds of immigrants are now walking round the city trying to find jobs? I have many of them coming to my factory every day.
    The Temporary Chairman: This seems to be my unlucky day. I am sure that we are now galloping away from anything that is really relevant to this debate.
    Mr. Howell: I have no wish to trespass upon your great generosity, Mr. Williams, but as I see it the only people who will come into this country under the voucher system are bound to end up in cities like Birmingham, where there are other difficulties, including housing difficulties. This system will not help to integrate these people.
    Mr. Victor Yates: There is practically no unemployment in Birmingham among coloured workers.
    Mr. Howell: My hon. Friend is right; there is a tremendous number of places in Birmingham. I will leave the hon. Member for Barry with that thought. [HON. MEMBERS: "He has left you!"] My attention is drawn to the fact that the hon. Member has left me without any thought at all. It is most unusual for an hon. Member to leave in the middle of a reply to his speech. [HON. MEMBERS: "He is coming back."] I am delighted to see the hon. Member scraping back. I hope that he has brought his voucher with him.
    Many Welshman left Wales and came to cities like Birmingham, and we were delighted to have them. The fact that they left Wales made a tremendous contribution towards solving the very similar unemployment problem facing Wales. In those circumstances, I am astounded that any Welsh Member could make the sort of speech which the hon. Member for Barry made this afternoon.
    My Amendment concerns Australia, and would exempt all citizens of that country from the provisions of the Bill. I am very anxious to see countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada take action to help to solve this problem. My first reason is a most important political one, affecting the Commonwealth. It arises from the problem of population in India, Pakistan and the West Indies. Those who passionately believe in the Commonwealth, as some of us do—and I am one—believe that the Commonwealth means so much that when we are faced with this kind of tremendous difficulty we ought not to try to solve it in isolation, and without conferring with the other Dominions.
    Australia is not facing its responsibilities. At the moment it is not giving any thought to the way in which it could help to make a contribution towards solving this tremendous problem, and
    1422
    thus make the Commonwealth work. To me the Commonwealth means nothing if its only purpose is to get Commonwealth Prime Ministers together every now and again in order to sign a communiqué drafted by our Prime Minister. That is not the purpose of the Commonwealth. It must deal with tangible matters.
    Countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada could make a greater contribution towards solving the population problem, by helping to disperse populations, than almost any other country. But if we want to press that policy upon them, as I do—and as Her Majesty's Government should—we cannot start by saying that we will make the citizens of those countries subject to the provisions of the Bill, so that they may not be allowed to come here. In order to show Australia, New Zealand and Canada what the Commonwealth should really mean we must start from a logical premise. On that basis there is every reason for exempting citizens of Australia from the provisions of the Bill.
    I do not want to do Australia any injustice. It takes a considerable number of emigrants from this country. The hon. Member for Barry, by opposing my Amendment seems to be suggesting that citizens of Australia should in certain cases be placed in a worse position than citizens of Britain who seek to emigrate. It is possible for us to get the Governments of Canada, Australia and New Zealand to make a contribution to this problem only if we treat their countrymen with generosity. Many people go from this country to Australia every year. One of the regrettable facts about the whole debate is that we have not been given any specific figures to enable us to see the overall picture of immigration into, and emigration from, this country.
    Mr. Harold Gurden: This is a very interesting Amendment. The hon. Member has mentioned Australia, New Zealand and Canada specifically, and I understand his argument quite clearly. He wants a completely open door for the citizens of those three countries. How far does his argument go? Would it apply to every one of the countries listed and, indeed, to the whole of the Commonwealth and Colonies?
    Mr. Howell: I do not know whether I am losing my powers of eloquence, if I ever had any, but the hon. Member has been here throughout the whole of my speech, and if he does not understand that I do not want the Bill at all then it seems to me that I have been completely wasting the last 30 minutes, in which I have been discussing the point. Naturally I want the open-door policy, not least for moral and ethical reasons. I had hoped that I might carry the hon. Member with me. Considering the matter from the moral, ethical or Christian point of view, I do not understand how any hon. Member can justify the Bill or any of the arguments put forward in support of it.
    5.30 p.m.
    I am in grave doubt indeed, from a moral point of view, how hon. Members opposite could have made the speeches which they have made without talking about the necessary corollary. It is that if we are not going to allow these people to come here because of unemployment in their own countries then there is an overwhelming obligation on the House and on the country to put matters right in their countries so that they will not wish to leave them to come here to work.
    In a dissertation in the Birmingham Mail some time ago on this very point, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Spark-brook (Mr. Seymour) said that it was un-Christian—I think that I quote him rightly, but if I do not he will no doubt correct me—to allow people to come into Birmingham and live in conditions of bad housing. That is a position which the hon. Member could take up if it were not for the fact that he is obviously prepared to send these people back to their own countries to live in worse housing conditions than they would experience in Birmingham. How anyone trying to argue this matter from a Christian point of view can take that stand is beyond me.
    The hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) specifically stated yesterday that we could not expect the West Indies, for example, to think that economic development and investment were going to solve their problems. We have not had one tittle of evidence from hon. Members opposite in respect of this great moral question regarding how they propose to put things right in
    1424
    the countries from which most of these immigrants come so as to avoid the necessity for their coming here in the first place.
    Mr. Seymour: I did not say that we were going to send them back. Indeed, there is no intention under the Bill to send them back. It is quite true I said that, because there was no accommodation for them in Birmingham, they were having to live in terrible housing conditions.
    Mr. Howell: The hon. Gentleman cannot slide out of it on that one. What he is now saying is that people are not going to be allowed to leave the most abyssmal, disgraceful and disgusting housing conditions in the West Indies as are to be found anywhere in the world in order to come here even though their improved lot is by our standards not satisfactory. I know that all these things are relative, but the hon. Gentleman is obviously prepared to condemn these people to live in worse conditions in their own country than they would do in this country. I agree that there is a tremendous housing problem in this country, but that is another question which it would be out of order for me to debate today.
    Finally, in recommending my Amendment to the Committee, I want to remind hon. Members of a memorable phrase used by one of the greatest Foreign Secretaries we have had since the war. Ernest Bevin. He was not a man to make memorable phrases, but one phrase which he uttered in the House, and which was endorsed by hon. Members on both sides irrespective of political thought, was that the object of Government policy and of foreign policy should be that people should be able to go to Waterloo and buy a ticket for anywhere in the world. He was talking at the time about going into the Communist parts of the world. I am surf-that we all agree with what he said. The question of inter-communication and of the privilege of going to Waterloo and buying a ticket to anywhere in the world should be the object of our foreign policy.
    The people who cheered Ernest Bevin to the echo when he said that are now the very people who under the Bill are clamping further restrictions on a greater

    1425
    number of people in the world. If when Ernest Bevin made that pronouncement anyone had said that in a few years' time a Conservative Government, far from extending the area of free movement, would be stopping members of the Commonwealth from buying a ticket to come to this country they would have been howled out of court, and quite rightly and properly so. So greatly has the position changed.
    I hope that the Home Secretary and the Committee will understand the importance of including the white Dominions in order to make them face up to their responsibilities and to treat the Commonwealth as a Commonwealth and to face up to the obligations of Commonwealth membership which all of us must share if we believe in this great ideal.
    It is for these reasons that I have pleasure in commending the Amendment to the Committee.
    Mr. Peter Walker: If it were the intention of Her Majesty's Government to stop emigration from the countries mentioned in these Amendments I, personally, would support the Amendments. But that is not the intention of the Government. Their intention is to introduce some form of control over emigration from these countries.
    Let me make it perfectly clear that, personally, I hope that the rate of emigration from these countries will be as high as possible. I feel that we are faced with a tremendous task at present in trying to relieve unemployment in the Colonial Territories and to help as many as possible of their nationals to obtain training in this country. But it is to the advantage of the people concerned to have some form of control over their emigration to this country.
    We have already heard of the problems created by immigrants going only to isolated areas in this country where housing problems are very great and how much better it would be if they could be spread to a greater degree throughout the country. I suggest that the important point at issue is how the Bill is to be interpreted in the future. If. over the coming years, we find that its provisions are used to prevent immigration from these countries, I hope that when we review the Bill in subsequent years, as we
    1426
    shall be able to do, we shall rescind the Measure.
    Provided we find that under the Bill people are allowed to come here from these countries under reasonable control, and are assisted in every way, I believe that the Bill could do a great deal of good for the Commonwealth. I invite my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to say how he considers that people of these Commonwealth countries are to hear of the opportunities to obtain employment here.
    The hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Denis Howell) raised some interesting points concerning the working of these labour vouchers. I hope that the Government will establish some form of Commonwealth employment bureaux attached to our offices in the Commonwealth countries so that people may know what opportunities are available to them here. I hope also that my right hon. Friend will make available to these offices details of the maximum number of vacancies available in this country. Unless this is done, there could be the danger of a nasty, vicious black market being created in the obtaining of labour vouchers by people in these territories.
    There is a very important issue at stake, because if we can use the Bill to encourage sensible emigration from these African and Asian countries, in particular, to the United Kingdom it could do a great deal of good. Is it my right hon. Friend's intention under the controlled immigration which will result from the Bill to look into the position as far as housing accommodation is concerned when these people come to this country with labour vouchers?
    We shall have the position that people coming from abroad, with or without labour vouchers, will cause a great problem from the housing point of view in those areas where there are employment vacancies, because it is in those very areas where a lack of labour force exists that we get the worst housing problem. It is important that if the Bill is to work in a sensible way, and is to control immigration from these Commonwealth countries, some arrangement should be made with the local authorities to make suitable provision for housing those who come here.

    1427
    There are some aspects of the Bill about which I am very unhappy, because there is the possibility of it being interpreted as a racial Measure. I believe that this Committee has no greater duty than to try to make the experiment of a multi-racial Commonwealth a success. Anxiety has been expressed from both sides of the Committee on this issue.
    If my right hon. Friend can say that the numbers of those coming to this country under a system of controlled immigration will be as high as possible, that they will have facilities of knowing in their own countries the number of employment vacancies here and will also have certain social amenities provided for them, then the Commonwealth will see that the Bill could, in fact, assist it and not hamper it.
    Lady Megan Lloyd George: The hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker) began his speech by saying that the object of the Bill was to restrict immigration from these countries. It would be more accurate to say that the object is to restrict immigration from some of them, mainly, of course, as we realise, from the West Indies and some of the Dependencies and other countries of the Commonwealth.
    The more we hear of speeches from hon. Members opposite the more we realise, and the more clear it becomes, that this is a colour bar Bill. That is why hon. Members on this side of the Committee are opposed to it root and branch. That is why, yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition moved an Amendment to exempt the Colonial Territories, and that is why my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) has initiated a debate today on an Amendment to leave out the countries of the Commonwealth.
    We have heard a great deal about some of the newer countries of the Commonwealth and I wish to say a word about some of the older member countries. I am quite sure that never in their wildest nightmares did hon. Members opposite dream that they would be asked to support a Bill which would put immigration restrictions on citizens from Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. But hon. Members
    1428
    opposite must face the fact that this is what they are now being asked to do. It shows the muddle into which the Government have got themselves. If anything more was needed to show that, it was provided by the hon. Member for Barry (Mr. Gower), who made confusion worse confounded by his floundering speech.
    Now the position is that Canadian citizens can enter the United States with a mere formality, but they are subject to immigration restrictions if they seek to enter this country. Now, in common with all citizens of the Commonwealth, they will be in one of two restricted categories, aliens or Commonwealth and Colonial citizens. Hon. Members opposite must face the fact that they will be voting to make a change in the status of Commonwealth citizens for the first time in history.
    Commonwealth citizens seeking to come to this country will be subject to the jurisdiction of immigration officers at the ports. They will decide whether these citizens qualify to enter under the provisions contained in this Bill. Yesterday, hon. Members told the Committee something about the history and the relations of this country with the West Indies and other Dependencies and the responsibilities we have towards them. I wish to say something about some of the obligations and responsibilities which I think that we have towards the older members of the Commonwealth. They are drawn from the same root stock—Welsh, English, Scots and Irish.
    You will observe, Sir William, that I put first things first. I try to get my priorities right. Here we are, with the same common traditions and history; with the same common debt and obligation which we have to pay after two great world wars. During the war years there were no immigration officers at the ports to interrogate Australians and Canadians. We were very glad to see them. I recall a grim moment when, I think in 1941, the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) made a famous broadcast, when he was preparing the citizens of this country to face the worst, and he said that in the future we might have to entrust the keeping alive of British civilisation to the countries of the Commonwealth.

    1429
    These are some of the responsibilities, some of the common memories and the heritage which we have with the members of the Commonwealth. Now this Government, a Tory Government—the party of Commonwealth and Empire as they would have us believe—are prepared, for the first time in our history, to introduce immigration restrictions upon these members of the Commonwealth. I wonder what hon. Members opposite would have said had a Labour Government attempted to bring in this Bill. Well, I do not really wonder. I know. They would have waved the flag.
    5.45 p.m.
    This Bill is a symptom of a great change which is taking place in the Commonwealth, and the party opposite is just beginning to realise the full impact of this change. They are beginning to realise that the Colonial Empire has become the Commonwealth and that a great part, indeed the greater part of the people of the Commonwealth are coloured. For the Government it will never be quite the same again. The glory has departed. That is the truth. Hon. Members opposite had better face the fact that this is an odious and distasteful Bill which they have brought before Parliament. I hope that the Government will accept these Amendments. 1 hope that better still, that they will withdraw the Bill. I should like to give them the same advice that the right hon. Member for Woodford gave to another Government about another Bill, on another occasion—"Take it away and cut its dirty throat."
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. R. A. Butler): It may be convenient if I intervene for a short period in the debate. The Amendments cover a great many different countries. They have all been brought into the discussion in one way or another. I notice that the countries not mentioned are Malaya and Cyprus, but I presume that the Amendments, taken together, are designed to be complementary—as was said by the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle)—to the amendment moved yesterday by the Leader of the Opposition.
    That was honestly said by the hon. Lady. It means that, had we accepted the Amendment moved yesterday by her right hon. Friend, and were we to accept
    1430
    these Amendments which are today being discussed together, it would mean that the Bill would be rendered utterly inoperative. Therefore, the justice of what I said yesterday becomes absolutely clear. It was derided yesterday in some quarters. But it is absolutely clear today that a combination of the Amendment relating to the Colonies moved by the Leader of the Opposition, and the Amendment which has been moved today, would render the Bill completely inoperative.
    As it is the decision of the Government that a Bill of this sort is necessary at present, it must be obvious to the hon. Member for Blackburn, and to the Committee, that we cannot accept this series of Amendments; any more than we could accept the Amendment relating to the Colonies which was moved yesterday by the Leader of the Opposition. It is our belief—we have used the expression, "a sad necessity"—that the Bill is necessary, for reasons which I have given and which I need not reiterate today. But I am certain that if we are to have the Bill it would be impossible to eliminate the countries referred to, the members of the Commonwealth, including what were called by the hon. Lady the Member for Carmarthen (Lady Megan Lloyd George) the old Commonwealth, and leave in the Colonies. That would be a form of discrimination of the worst sort. The hon. Member for Blackburn said, "I do not believe that the people of the Colonies would begrudge this Amendment being accepted" but I am perfectly certain that they would not understand if those countries were exempted and the Colonies brought in. For that main reason I find it impossible to accept the Amendments.
    The hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Denis Howell) had an interchange with other hon. Members for Birmingham constituencies and devoted a great deal of his speech to the City of Birmingham. That is typical of our procedure in Committee.
    Mr. Denis Howell Mr. Denis Howell rose—
    Mr. Butler: The hon. Member need not interrupt me, because I am not attempting to traverse his argument. He referred to the great nations of Australia, New Zealand and Canada. They were referred to also, in moving terms, by the hon. Lady the Member for Carmarthen.
    Lady Megan Lloyd George: And India and Pakistan.
    Mr. Butler: We feel very deeply the need to impose immigration control on those great countries, but it surely lies very ill in the mouths of Opposition speakers perpetually to taunt us by saying that this is a colour bar Bill and to taunt us at the same time when we include those great nations of Australia, New Zealand, Canada and other great nations of the Commonwealth. Particular points were made by these two hon. Members about those great nations, but the fact that we have thought it necessary to include them is a striking answer to what has been perpetually said in our debates to the effect that this is a colour bar Bill.
    We have deliberately decided that—with the exception of Eire, which we shall discuss when we come to the next Amendment and which it would be out of order to discuss now—there must be no discrimination as between different members of the Commonwealth for colour or for any other reason. That is the reason I am unable to accept the Amendment.
    Mr. Denis Howell Mr. Denis Howell rose—
    Mr. Butler: I was interrupted quite a lot yesterday. I wish to make a short speech. We are in Committee and I think it much better that we should make short speeches to allow other hon. Members to answer back.
    The next point made in the debate—to every word of which I have listened—was that made by my hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Mr. Gower). He said that there was no likelihood that the Bill would be used to stop those who really want or need to come here. That argument was elaborated by my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker), who also asked that the Bill should be so interpreted that sensible and reasonable immigration from those great countries should take place.
    When I was speaking about Australia, Canada and New Zealand, the hon. Member for Carmarthen interrupted to mention those other great Commonwealth countries, India and Pakistan. This gives me an opportunity of paying tribute to the manner in which the Governments of India and Pakistan,
    1432
    especially in the difficult years of 1958–59, during my time as Home Secretary, attempted to control their emigration. They have attempted to the utmost to co-operate with us in the difficulties with which they know we are faced.
    It is only because their efforts have largely broken down, and because the numbers of those coming from those two countries have increased, that we have been obliged to consider, as we did in dealing with the Amendment referring to colonial countries, the numbers coming in and have been obliged to introduce a Bill of this sort. It is a pleasure to me to be able to pay a tribute to what those Governments have done and to the extent of the co-operation that we have received from them.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Worcester asked, in particular, that not only should we do our best to ensure the social conditions of incoming migrants, but that we should also encourage sensible controlled immigration. It is under Clause 2 that we have to deal with the voucher system and I must retain my remarks until we discuss that Clause. It is our intention to use the new Housing Act, which took particular powers to deal with bad conditions in overcrowded areas and overcrowded houses, and the rest of our housing policy to improve the grim housing conditions which have been one of the reasons why this present Bill has come to our attention.
    It is in the White Paper which introduced the Act of 1961 and it has been said in Ministers' speeches that one of the reasons for this Bill is that if we were to allow a completely uncontrolled flow of immigration it would not be possible, even with the extreme efforts of housing authorities, to keep pace with the inflow. Because we want to balance the inflow with the sincere efforts we are making to improve housing conditions, there is the need for the Bill.
    My hon. Friends also asked about controlled immigration. I have said that on this Amendment I cannot go into greater detail about the voucher system, but the Minister of Labour is sitting by me and I can say that there should be no difficulty about vouchers for those

    1433
    coming to work and those judged suitabe for admission because of skill. We hope to establish a system of consultation with the Governments principally concerned, with the High Commissioners and others to facilitate those accepting jobs or coming here because they have skill. It is our intention, under Clause 2, to give fuller explanations of these matters which I hope will satisfy my hon. Friends that we are trying to help not only with the social conditions, but also with the working conditions of those coming in.
    As I have said, we were obliged to negative the Amendment relating to the Colonies and Dependencies which was moved by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday. For the same reason, we have to reject this Amendment, although we appreciate the sincerity with which it has been moved.
    Mr. Douglas Jay: Since my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. D. Howell) referred to figures of immigration and emigration to and out of this country and since the Home Secretary and the Minister of Labour are both with us, I want to put one or two further questions about the figures which I think should be cleared up before we conclude the debate.
    On Second Reading, when I asked the Home Secretary the true net figures for immigration and emigration, he had not at that point got them with him, but at the end of the debate the Minister of Labour gave us some figures which purported to show that in the last three years immigration to this country had exceeded emigration from this country. Yesterday the Home Secretary gave figures relating to particular countries such as India and Pakistan which he described as net figures for emigration, but those were not the true net figures because they were figures of immigrants from India to the United Kingdom less Indians returning from this country to India. The true net figure is the total of all immigrants to this country less the total of all emigrants out of it.
    Since the Second Reading, when the Minister of Labour gave us those rather strange figures, the Annual Abstract of Statistics has been published. It gives some figures which present a totally different picture. I do not wish to be
    1434
    dogmatic about these figures, but my main question to both Ministers is: what is the explanation of the discrepancy between the two sets of figures? If we turn to page 41 of the Abstract of Statistics, we find figures which are described as of movements direct by sea of immigrants and emigrants between the United Kingdom and non-European countries. They give for each year the total of immigrants to this country by sea from non-European countries and the total of emigrants on the same basis from this country by sea to non-European countries. I take it that that excludes Irish immigrants and emigrants both ways since the Abstract refers to non-European countries.
    Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth: Does this document include immigrants in the strict sense of the word, or does it exclude those who come or go on holiday or for pleasure?
    Mr. Jay: That is precisely what it does not include. The hon. Member will find that that is what the Minister of Labour has done but not what I am doing.
    6.0 p.m.
    The figures of immigration and emigration, on the basis which I gave, show that in practice every year from 1952 to 1957 the emigrants from this country exceeded the immigrants into it by about 100,000. For instance, in 1952 the immigrants into this country were 82,000 and the emigrants to non-European countries from this country were 182,000. In 1957 the immigrants into the United Kingdom on this basis were 63,000 and the emigrants from this country were 163,000. The difference is 100,000 in each case. On this basis in the last three years, 1958, 1959 and 1960, total emigration from this country exceeded total immigration into it. I want to put the point quite fairly; I take it that this excludes movement to and from the Irish Republic.
    Mr. John Dugdale: But those who went from this country were, by and large, white, and quite a large proportion of those coming into the country were not white. Is not that one of the main reasons for the Bill?
    Mr. Jay: That may well be so, but at the moment I am confining myself to the figures.

    1435
    Then we come to the Second Reading speech by the Minister of Labour. He said that he was taking his figures from the Annual Report of the Oversea Migration Board, and on that basis he produced what he called a net inward balance of about 40,000—a net immigration into the United Kingdom in the years 1958, 1959 and 1960. But if one looks at page 17 of the Report of the Oversea Migration Board one finds these figures, but one also finds the definition which the Minister did not give us of what the figures mean. The Report says:
    "The gross inward movement will coyer (but does not distinguish between) immigration proper, i.e. for more than a year; the re-entry of former emigrants; and overseas visitors."
    This deals with the point made by the hon. Baronet the Member for Hendon, South (Sir H. Lucas-Tooth). From any inexpert reading, therefore, it appears that the figure which the Minister of Labour gave us includes the American tourists, for example, who come here in the summer. But I am only searching for knowledge in reading the Report and I ask the Minister of Labour to look at the point again. He did not mention that those visitors were included in the figure. He called them migrants, and on the face of it that seems to be somewhat misleading.
    The main question which I want to put to him is: did the figures which he gave us include American tourists and other tourists coming into the country? I think that the ordinary British public will distinguish between coloured immigrant workers from the West Indies and these visitors. If they do not include them, what is the explanation of the discrepancy between his figures and those in the Abstract?
    I can see only three possible explanations, and I am asking which is right. The first may be that the figures in the Abstract merely include those travelling by sea whereas the figures of the Overseas Migration Board also include those travelling by air. Subject to contradiction, however, I think that a higher proportion of the American tourists come by air than of coloured workers from Jamaica, and if that is true it means that it is improbable that the distinction between air and sea is an explanation of the discrepancy.
    1436
    The second possible explanation is that the Minister of Labour's figures include the movement of Irish workers both ways and those in the Abstract of Statistics, as I understand it, do not. But even if that is the true explanation, it still remains a fact that, apart from the movement of Irish workers, the immigration into this country does not exceed the emigration from it. On any interpretation of the figures which I can see, if we leave out the movement of Irish workers both ways for the moment, it remains true that there are as many people emigrating from this country as there are immigrating into it.
    The third possible explanation—and I ask the Minister whether it is right—is that his figures included tourists, presumably tourists both ways, and that the figures in the Abstract of Statistics do not. Is that the true explanation? If it is, it puts rather a different complexion on the whole matter.
    All I am doing is searching for knowledge—and no doubt I know much less about the figures than do the Minister of Labour and the Home Secretary. What are the true facts and what is the explanation of this curious discrepancy between different official figures?
    Mr. Laurence Pavitt Mr. Laurence Pavitt (Willesden, West) rose—
    Hon. Members: Answer.
    Mr. Denis Howell: On a point of order. If my right hon. Friend is right about his assumptions, is it not a fact that, wittingly or unwittingly, the Minister of Labour—
    The Deputy-Chairman (Major Sir William Anstruther-Gray): Order. That is not a matter for the Chair. I called the hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt).
    Mr. Pavitt: I delayed addressing the Committee in the hope that we might have further information from the Government which would perhaps have helped in the contribution which I wish to make. I must confess that having heard yet another Front Bench speech on this important Bill, I still find the Bill extremely confusing and entirely ramshackle, and I am not convinced by the Government's case against the series of Amendments initiated by my hon.

    1437
    Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle). The hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker) mentioned that many hon. Members opposite were unhappy about the Bill, and I formed the impression that the Home Secretary was still unhappy about it—not perhaps quite as unhappy as yesterday but still very unhappy. He was also very unconvincing in asking the House to negative these Amendments.
    I look at the problem from two ends of the scale. The first is from the point of view of the Commonwealth—and I have tabled an Amendment about Sierra Leone for which I shall make some special pledge. The second is from the point of view of immigrants from the Commonwealth, many of whom come to my constituency. West Willesden. This is a constituency matter, and I hope that the Committee will bear with me if I first look at it from a constituency point of view.
    One reason why I am opposed to the Bill, and every line and every comma of it, and particularly the inclusion of the Commonwealth in it, is that it is tackling a real problem in entirely the wrong way. It does not deal with the real problems which we face. In West Willesden we have succeeded in bringing about a high degree of integration with a large number of people who have come from the Commonwealth and Colonies. This Bill will hinder the efforts which we have made because it diverts attention from the problem of integrating these people and it pretends that there is some other reason for its introduction.
    The integration in my constituency has been brought about not by an unconscious effort but by a very conscious effort. We had to establish a multiracial committee to deal with the special problems. That was a point made by the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall). At this time of the year, when I go to my schools for their prize giving, I look upon a sea of faces, many coloured and many white. As a member of the Central Middlesex Hospital Committee I cannot attend any function in my hospitals without seeing the integration which has taken place with people coming from the Commonwealth and Colonies and serving in the hospitals.
    In industry we have a very high level of employment. The hon. Member for
    1438
    Worcester is right when he says that the two things go together—when one has high employment one has a heavy housing problem. I cannot go to any factory in my area without finding integration working extremely well, and not just accidentally. We are bringing in people from the Commonwealth because we feel that they are part of the family and we are able to take special measures to make sure that they become integrated into the area.
    I will give the Committee one example. Some time ago we wanted to introduce some people from the Commonwealth into one of the canteens in a factory in my area. The canteen is divided into two parts. One part is for V.I.P.s—the directors—and the other part is for the ordinary workpeople. The coloured help was first introduced into the directors' part and afterwards into the ordinary workers' part. This meant that the coloured people were easily assimilated and there was no problem.
    Despite the Home Secretary's assertion that the Bill does not constitute a colour bar, it has become apparent from our previous debates that it is nothing but a colour bar. He resists our Amendments which seek to exclude the white Dominions from the operation of the Bill so that he can pretend that it is not a colour bar. This is whitewash. There is no real point in his doing this, because he knows that in its actual operation the Bill will have very little impact upon Australia, Canada and New Zealand, whereas it will have a great impact upon the coloured parts of the Commonwealth and the Colonies.
    Some years ago I had the privilege of travelling through India and Indonesia. Our Commonwealth conception was plainly alive in India, despite the fact that the political leaders with whom I spoke had often been imprisoned years ago by the British Government. In Indonesia I found that the Dutch were hated by the Indonesians because they had failed to incorporate them into the family. The Bill will weaken the tradition we have been able to build up since the Labour Government gave independence to parts of the Commonwealth. It will create barriers. It will give the impression that we no longer treasure the relationships which formerly existed. We are particularly concerned that the

    1439
    Bill may prevent people from India and Pakistan coming to this country.
    Many of my hon. Friends have mentioned that in hospitals and in transport—the more menial tasks—-service is often provided by people from the Commonwealth and the Colonies. However, it is not only in the lower grades. This is true right the way through our hospital service. I sat on an appointments committee on Tuesday to consider the appointment of an ophthalmic registrar. There were nine applicants—four from India, two from Pakistan, one from Cairo, and two from this country. Anyone who knows anything about the hospital service will agree that unless people from Pakistan and India served in the registrar and senior hospital officer grade the hospital service would immediately break down. This is because of the very poor way in which the Government have organised the medical student intake. From the point of view of the organisation of our country and the point of view of relationships with Commonwealth and Colonial countries, I very much regret that the Government wish to negative these Amendments.
    I was very disturbed by the very interesting article by Mr. E. R. Braithwaite in the Observer on Sunday. I expect many hon. Members know him for his excellent book, "To Sir with Love". He worked in my part of the world in East London. He showed just how a person can become integrated into a community. Speaking as a friend of this country who works here, he made it quite clear that there is a growing opinion against colour and that it is necessary, if we are to stop this opinion growing, to be active in ensuring that integration is complete.
    I have on previous occasions mentioned the housing problem. 1 cannot attend any of my Friday night "surgeries" without having at least one case of a coloured landlord's white tenant in a controlled tenancy. This is an acute problem. For every one bad coloured landlord there are ten good ones. My constituency is giving a lead in tackling this problem by our multi-racial committee, which acts as a kind of arbitrator in trying to smooth out the problems.
    The moment the Bill came before the House, instead of directing themselves to
    1440
    the housing problem, the Government said, "But there is no housing problem. It is only because all these coloured people are coming here and taking our houses". In my area there are 700 slums and 400 prefabs to be cleared. There are 191 cases of overcrowding which should by law be given other accommodation. But there is no accommodation to give them.
    This situation exists because of the breakdown of the housing policy. This is what we have to tackle. However, the moment the Bill was discussed in the Press credence was given to the notion that it is not a problem of housing. It was suggested that if instead of 100 per cent. admission we could have only 85 per cent. admission somehow or other the problem would be magically solved. The Home Secretary added to this when he mentioned the Housing Bill. He said that he hoped that this would alleviate the housing problem. He knows full well that under that Bill bricks and mortar and dwellings will not emerge for at least one or two years. But this Bill will have immediate implications.
    6.15 p.m.
    We must look at the social problem and try to solve it. We must also try to solve the economic problems. The Government have so far failed even to tackle them. People who come to this country produce wealth. They give us service. They are able to create a larger and expanding economy. But rather than face this challenge and solve the problems it creates the Government introduce this ramshackle Bill which seeks in a very inadequate and inefficient way to pretend that there is a way round it if only some restriction can be imposed. The four speakers to whom I have listened from the Government Front Bench all seemed to have very little idea of what the Bill means and how it is to be operated.
    I want to make a special plea for Sierra Leone, in respect of which I have tabled an Amendment. I had the privilege of being one of the representatives of the House of Commons who attended the independence celebrations in Sierra Leone, which was the last country to enter the Commonwealth last year. In spite of the blanket way in which we have to discuss this subject, I want to argue that Sierra Leone is a special case.

    1441
    Hon. Members will remember that the country gained its independence startlingly suddenly. Nobody expected when the Constitutional Conference started that it would finish with Sierra Leone becoming independent by last April.
    The suddenness of independence has created a number of very special problems in Sierra Leone. There is a fresh Constitution. Sir Milton Margai has taken over the Prime Minister's job. Eventually their will be elections. At the moment there are no elections; there is a Coalition Government. Sierra Leone is passing through all the teething troubles of early independence. There is physical independence, but enfranchisement is not yet established. The country is faced with all the problems of transferring from the umbrella of the Colonial Development and Welfare Fund.
    In these circumstances, I make a special plea for an absolutely open door so that people from Sierra Leone, who are now building up their own country, can come here for a few years, not just for twelve months or two years. I want them to be able to come to this country to study our techniques with a view to establishing a strong and broad economy in their country. At the moment Sierra Leone's economy consists entirely of agriculture and diamonds. Kind as the Government were in letting me participate in the independence celebrations, they did not allow time for a visit to the interior, where I understand that when it rains heavily diamonds can be picked up in the street. The diamond industry is certainly a very heavy part of the economy. If the economy is to be broad and if they are to move towards industrialisation, people from Sierra Leone should be able to come to my constituency, for instance, where we have the finest knowhow in the world, and visit our factories. They would be able to absorb our industrial techniques and take their knowledge back to their country and build it up into a more balanced economy, less dependant upon one single form of economic strength.
    These are the reasons which have prompted me, in company with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes), to table the Amendment, because Sierra Leone is a special case. Tanganyika will
    1442
    become independent next week, but up to the moment Sierra Leone is the most recent entrant into the Commonwealth. It deserves our very special consideration.
    Our discussions so far on the Bill have shown that those hon. Members opposite who have most knowledge of the Commonwealth and the Colonies are the most unhappy about the Bill. The hon. Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher), who does such a sterling job of work for the Caribbean and devotedly gives his time, attention and trouble, has been one of the most unhappy men in the House during these debates. He has many reservations. In view of this, I reinforce the plea of my hon. Friends that even at this late stage the Government should withdraw the Bill and get rid of it.
    Mr. Godfrey Lagden: This Bill is one of control and is not designed to ban. Hon. Members should get that firmly in their minds before the debate continues. Perhaps it would be as well if hon. Members also recognised that the Opposition's efforts to try to transfer this debate into one of a colour bar will surely fail, because I believe that the British people are in favour of the control of persons coming here, as long as it is fair control.
    Some play has been made about the question of Christianity, but I suggest that we might give some consideration to the question of humanity. Members may have seen a television broadcast concerning a boatload of 700 people who were leaving Britain to return to their own countries. The explanations they gave for leaving were many and varied, but nearly all of them were unhappy people wanting to go back to their own environment and homes.
    Those who have had the opportunity, as I have, of going to Tilbury and seeing boatloads of these people arriving cannot help but notice and be very perturbed that so many of them arrive here without any preparation for a job, without a house in which to live or even lodgings and very little knowledge of the circumstances of the country. It is common knowledge that on arrival many of them are met and exploited by the most undesirable people of their own countries who have preceded them here.

    1443
    Should anyone doubt this I have chapter and verse to confirm that many of these people are actually unloaded from the boat, stand on the dockside bewildered, are approached and taken in taxis to houses which are already overcrowded and are scandalously overcharged for accommodation which is quite unfit. I have proof of this in my constituency.
    It is not a very good basis for good relations with our fellows in the Commonwealth if we are to allow them to arrive here and find that state of affairs and then to find that the district to which they have been enticed contains very little employment for them.
    This sort of control—which, I repeat, is not a ban—would have the effect of taking these people on arrival to places where employment exists and where they can be suitably housed. It is not good enough to merely allow them to get off a ship in this country and find themselves in conditions which we would not expect, in many cases, even an animal to tolerate. What I have said needed saying, for I am certain that the people of this country still have an open mind on this issue and say, "By all means let them come here when work and houses are available for them," but do not let us try, for political or party purposes, to turn this into a wrangle on the colour bar.
    Miss Lee: The hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Lagden) has not quite faced the fact that if we waited until good housing conditions and an absolute guarantee of jobs were available before allowing immigrants from the Commonwealth to Britain we should have half our hospitals and half our transport system brought to a standstill.
    Mr. Lagden: I think the hon. Lady has made my point; that if there are jobs waiting, by all means let them come, but the moment those jobs are fully filled by all means do not let them come.
    Miss Lee: The argument is not quite that. The hon. Gentleman went beyond that point and said that the whole matter should be put on grounds of humanity and that it would be a kindness for us to be certain that decent living conditions were available before Common-
    1444
    wealth immigrants were encouraged to come to Britain. In an ideal world I would agree with the hon. Gentleman. I do not think that having to leave one's own land, language, habits, family, customs and institutions in order to earn one's daily bread in an alien part of the world is necessarily a desirable thing.
    Indeed, it would have been a good thing if more Scotsmen had stayed in Scotland and more Welshmen in Wales—and I am neither anti-Scot nor anti-British. I am a Scot—and very much so. If civilised Governments of the past had planned our industries and cities there would not have been this desperate need for successive waves of emigration even from one part of these islands to another. I should like to have seen more jobs made available in Jamaica and the West Indies. Instead the same pressures exist in those parts of the Commonwealth as existed in Ireland in the middle of the last century. At that time Irish families were hungry and their farms were derelict. Due to these conditions, often one son of the family went to England or Scotland to earn a little money. The member of the family who came to England or Scotland to earn a living often lived in conditions of abject poverty. He lived even more humbly than he need have if his earnings had been spent only on himself. Instead most of it was sent home to sustain his family on the farm.
    The same sort of thing is happening to some of the Commonwealth people now coming to these islands. I am fully aware of those background considerations. Nevertheless, I am utterly opposed to the Bill. There need not be any hypocrisy on the part of hon. Members of either party. Most of us know—and for those who do not know the intervention of my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) underlined the point—that the emotions and prejudices that have been raised are not due to the extent of our population but because of its changing nature.
    We all realise that there has been emigration from this island as well as immigration into it. No one can read the speeches of hon. Gentlemen opposite or articles in the Press or examine the pressure groups that led to this Bill being introduced without realising that countries like India, Pakistan and the West Indies are also aware of its fundamental

    1445
    racial nature. We are not suffering from over-population or from an unmanageable tidal wave of unemployment. We are suffering from the profound colour prejudice of some hon. Members opposite who, while they are preaching to South Africa and other parts of the Commonwealth—and while they say that they accept the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights—nevertheless dislike the fact that about 1 per cent. of the population of this island now has a colour of skin rather darker than their own.
    Before the Committee votes on the Amendment I hope that hon. Members will give serious attention to a statement that was made by Mr. Nehru, the Indian Prime Minister, when he returned to his country after his last visit to Britain. Mr. Nehru, on his arrival in Bombay on 20th November, was asked at a Press conference what he thought of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill. The Prime Minister of India replied:
    "I hope no Indians will go to Britain. I do not want Indians treated differently."
    I hope that we shall consider the consequence of such remarks. Anyone who has any knowledge of Indian public opinion knows that again and again the Indian Prime Minister has been jeered at as the "Brown Englishman." In his political, intellectual and moral leadership he has been an enormous force seeking to hold together the Commonwealth in which we are all supposed to believe. It has not always been easy for Mr. Nehru or for other leaders of opinion in India to stand up against powerful currents in India, demanding "What is the point of the Commonwealth? What does it do for us?" particularly when we bear in mind the present background of our application to join the Common Market. First we alienate a great deal of Indian and other Commonwealth interests because they are worried about the economic consequences to them of our joining the Common Market. Then we add insult to injury by introducing a Bill of this kind.
    6.30 p.m.
    I wish to draw attention, particularly of hon. Members opposite, to something that has happened again and again in the history of the human race, of something which they may not be so aware as we on these benches are. If you insult
    1446
    a race or a country or a class you may think that you are dealing only with the weak, but if the insult is one that can be felt to be against the whole group, then you have got to answer not to the weak but to the strong.
    We have seen this happen again and again in the bitter class conflicts which have taken place in this country. We have seen it particularly in our coalfields. The men who have come forward as leaders of the coalminers have not been weak either physically or intellectually. Remember that it was not the most downtrodden who answered back. We have had to carry on our backs the weak in spirit and in body. It has been the outstandingly gifted men among our industrial workers who have said, "Touch the weakest among us and you shall answer to us." I hope that we shall not overlook this historical lesson.
    India has its many problems and its religious differences. There are the Moslems, Buddhists, Christians and the rest? But what are we seeking to do in a Bill like this? We insult the lot. We are not dealing with one racial group or one religious group. We are not even dealing with one economic class. It is not good enough for hon. Members opposite to say "The door is wide open to the rich. There is a penny in the slot turnstile for the poor"—or, if you like, a voucher in the slot turnstile. It is not good enough to say, "The poor can come in one by one, but it is all right for the rich. If you are rich enough you can come here and spend your money and no question will be asked. You can come here temporarily or permanently. But if you are poor we shall look at you twice. If, in addition to being poor, you have no particular skill, profession or job, we shall look at you thrice."
    When dealing with India, Pakistan, Ceylon, Ghana and all the rest of the Commonwealth—I make no exceptions—we should not have a Bill of this kind which says, "We will take a certain number of your skilled workers. We are going to make everything neat and tidy. Whenever we need your services you can come in, but we do not want to make any contribution to the solution of your problems—problems which are harder than our own, including the drag of mass poverty and illiteracy. Hon. Members opposite must be very careful what they

    1447
    are doing. This Bill is lacking in good sense. I am also deeply offended because it is lacking in good manners. I dread the consequences of this Bill because the Government are uniting against us people of every religion, race and income group. Let us not forget that.
    I do not feel very proud that the Government are trying to make coloured immigrants from the Commonwealth the scapegoats of the Government's failure to solve the housing problem. One would think hon. Members opposite had been newly elected into government. The Home Secretary told us today, "We are going to control the situation very carefully, and we are going to build up our housing to make provision for the incoming immigrants." I hope the party opposite will realise that not many of the immigrants will be able to buy houses. We have already exposed, and we all regret, the racket that goes on when some Jamaicans exploit other Jamaicans.
    But it is all a question of relativity. Bad as are the housing conditions which some of them have to tolerate in this
    country, they are better than the conditions that they have left behind them. At least they have clean water. We should also remember that when they come into this country and do many of the dirtiest, hardest and worst-paid jobs, they are helping us towards an expanding economy which in itself should help us to speed up the rate at which we build the type of houses which are most needed.
    Like other hon. Members, there is much more that I could say, but I think I have said enough. I do not think there is a single point left for hon. Members opposite, and so although I despair of the Government withdrawing this Bill, I do not despair of the people of Great Britain having the dignity to withdraw this Government.
    Mr. Michael Hughes-Young (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury)Mr. Michael Hughes-Young (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury) rose in his place, and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
    Question put, That the Question be now put:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 268, Noes 192.

    Division No. 24.]

    AYES

    [6.38 p.m.

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

    Fell, Anthony

    Aitken, W. T.

    Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

    Finlay, Graeme

    Allason, James

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Fisher, Nigel

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    Arbuthnot, John

    Chataway, Christopher

    Fraser, Hn. Hugh (Stafford & Stone)

    Ashton, Sir Hubert

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Simon)

    Atkins, Humphrey

    Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

    Freeth, Denzil

    Barber, Anthony

    Cleaver, Leonard

    Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

    Barlow, Sir John

    Cole, Norman

    George, J. C. (Pollok)

    Barter, John

    Cooke, Robert

    Gibson-Watt, David

    Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Gilmour, Sir John

    Bell, Ronald

    Corfield, F. V.

    Goodhart, Philip

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

    Costain, A. P.

    Gower, Raymond

    Berkeley, Humphry

    Coulson, J. M.

    Grant, Rt. Hon. William

    Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

    Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

    Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R.

    Bitten, John

    Craddock, Sir Beresford

    Green, Alan

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Critchley, Julian

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Bingham, R. M.

    Crowder, F. P.

    Grimston, sir Robert

    Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

    Cunningham, Knox

    Gurden, Harold

    Bishop, F. P.

    Curran, Charles

    Black, Sir Cyril

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Bourne-Arton, A.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

    Box, Donald

    Dance, James

    Hare, Rt. Hon. John

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J.

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Deedes, W. F.

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Braine, Bernard

    de Ferranti, Basil

    Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

    Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col.SirWalter

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

    Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Brooman-White, R.

    Doughty, Charles

    Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

    Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

    Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Browne, Percy (Torrington)

    Eden, John

    Hastings, Stephen

    Bryan, Paul

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Hay, John

    Bullard, Denys

    Elliott,R.W.(Nwcstle-upon-Tyne,N.)

    Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

    Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

    Emery, Peter

    Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

    Burden, F. A.

    Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

    Hendry, Forbes

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Hiley, Joseph

    Butler, Rt.Hn.R.A.(SaffronWalden)

    Erroll, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

    Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

    Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

    Farr, John

    Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

    Hinchingbrooke, viscount

    Mawby, Ray

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir Jocelyn

    Hocking, Philip N.

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Skeet, T. H. H.

    Holland, Philip

    Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

    Smith, Dudley(Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

    Hollingworth, John

    Mills, Stratton

    Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

    Hopkins, Alan

    Montgomery, Fergus

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Hornby, R. P.

    More, Jasper (Ludlow)

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

    Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

    Morgan, William

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives)

    Morrison, John

    Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)

    Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Talbot, John E.

    Hughes-Young, Michael

    Nabarro, Gerald

    Tapsell, Peter

    Hurd, Sir Anthony

    Nicholls, Sir Harmar

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

    Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Nugent, Sir Richard

    Taylor, F. (M'ch'ter & Moss Side)

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

    Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.)

    James, David

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Teeling, William

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

    Temple, John M.

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Osborn, John (Hallam)

    Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Jones, Rt. Hn. Aubrey (Hail Green)

    Page, John (Harrow, West)

    Thomas, Peter (Conway)

    Joseph, Sir Keith

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

    Pannell, Norman (Kirkdate)

    Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

    Kerby, Capt. Henry

    Partridge, E.

    Tilney, John (Wavertree)

    Kerr, Sir Hamilton

    Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

    Turner, Colin

    Kitson, Timothy

    Peyton, John

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

    van Straubenzee, W. R.

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Leburn, Gilmour

    Pilkington, Sir Richard

    Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Pitman, Sir James

    Vickers, Miss Joan

    Lilley, F. J. P.

    Pitt, Miss Edith

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Linstead, Sir Hugh

    Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

    Walder, David

    Litchfield, Capt. John

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Walker, Peter

    Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek

    Longbottom, Charles

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho

    Ward, Dame Irene

    Longden, Gilbert

    Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

    Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

    Loveys, Walter H.

    Pym, Frances

    Webster, David

    Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

    Ramsden, James

    Whitelaw, William

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Rawlinson, peter

    Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

    MacArthur, Ian

    Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    McLaren, Martin

    Rees, Hugh

    Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

    McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Renton, David

    Wise, A. R.

    Maclean, SirFitzroy(Bute&N.Ayrs.)

    Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

    Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard

    McMaster, Stanley R.

    Robson Brown, Sir William

    Woodhouse, C. M.

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Roots, William

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Maddan, Martin

    Russell, Ronald

    Woollam, John

    Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

    St. Clair, M.

    Worsley, Marcus

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Scott-Hopkins, James

    Yates, William (The Wrekin)

    Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest

    Seymour, Leslie

    Marshall, Douglas

    Sharpies, Richard

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Marten, Neil

    Shaw, M.

    Mr. Noble and Mr. Peel.

    Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

    Shepherd, William

    NOES

    Ainsley, William

    Deer, George

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Delargy, Hugh

    Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Dempsey, James

    Grimond, J.

    Awbery, Stan

    Diamond, John

    Gunter, Ray

    Bence, Cyril

    Dodds, Norman

    Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

    Benson, Sir George

    Donnelly, Desmond

    Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Blackburn, F.

    Driberg, Tom

    Hamilton, William (West Fife)

    Blyton, William

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

    Hannan, William

    Boardman, H.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

    Hart, Mrs. Judith

    Bowden, Herbert W. (Lelcs, S.W.)

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Hayman, F. H.

    Bowies, Frank

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Healey, Denis

    Boyden, James

    Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

    Henderson,Rt.Hn.Arthur(RwlyRegis)

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

    Evans, Albert

    Herbison, Miss Margaret

    Brockway, A. Fenner

    Finch, Harold

    Hill, J. (Midlothian)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Fitch, Alan

    Hilton, A. V.

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Fletcher, Eric

    Holman, Percy

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Foot, Dingle (Ipswich)

    Holt, Arthur

    Castle, Mrs. Barbara

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    Houghton, Douglas

    Chapman, Donald

    Cliffe, Michael

    Forman, J. C.

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Collick, Percy

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Hoy, James H.

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Crosland, Anthony

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Cullen, Mrs. Alice

    George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Crmrthn)

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Darling, George

    Gooch, E. G.

    Hunter, A. E.

    Davies,Rt.Hn. Clement(Montgomery)

    Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

    Gourlay, Harry

    Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Grey, Charles

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

    Oliver, G. H.

    Steele, Thomas

    Jeger, George

    Oram, A. E.

    Stones, William

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Oswald, Thomas

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Owen, Will

    Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Padley, W. E.

    Stross,Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

    Symonds, J. B.

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Parker, John

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Paton, John

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    Kelley, Richard

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Kenyon, Clifford

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Peart, Frederick

    Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

    King, Dr. Horace

    Pentland, Norman

    Thornton, Ernest

    Lawson, George

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Thorpe, Jeremy

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Prentice, R. E.

    Timmons, John

    Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Wade, Donald

    Logan, David

    Probert, Arthur

    Wainwright, Edwin

    Loughlin, Charles

    Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

    Warbey, William

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Randall, Harry

    Watkins, Tudor

    McCann, John

    Reid, William

    Weitzman, David

    MacCoil, James

    Rhodes, H.

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    McInnes, James

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    White, Mrs. Eirene

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Roberts, Coronwy (Caernarvon)

    Wigg, George

    McLeavy, Frank

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Willey, Frederick

    Mallalieu, J.P.W. (Huddersfield, E.)

    Ross, William

    Williams, D. J. (Heath)

    Mapp, Charles

    Royle, Charles (Salford, West)

    Williams, LI. (Abertillery)

    Mason, Roy

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Mellish, R. J.

    Short, Edward

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Millan, Bruce

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Winterbottom, R. E.

    Milne, Edward J.

    Skeffington, Arthur

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

    Woof, Robert

    Monslow, Walter

    Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

    Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

    Moody, A. S.

    Small, William

    Zilliacus, K.

    Morris, John

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Mort, D. L.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Moyle, Arthur

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Mr. Redhead and Mr. Cronin.

    Neal, Harold

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Question put accordingly, That those words be there inserted:—
    Mr. Michael Noble Mr. Michael Noble (a Teller for the Noes) announced the result of the Division as: Ayes 268, Noes 193.

    Division No. 25.]

    AYES

    16.48 p.m.

    Abse, Leo

    Edwards, Rt.Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Hoy, James H.

    Ainsley, William

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Awbery, Stan

    Evans, Albert

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Bence, Cyril

    Finch, Harold

    Hunter, A. E.

    Benson, Sir George

    Fitch, Alan

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Blackburn, F.

    Fletcher, Eric

    Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

    Blyton, William

    Foot, Dingle (Ipswich)

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Boardman, H.

    Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Bowden, Herbert W. (Leles, S.W.)

    Forman, J. C.

    Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

    Bowles, Frank

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Jeger, George

    Boyden, James

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Brockway, A. Fenner

    George,LadyMeganLloyd(Crmrthn)

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Gooch, E. G.

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Butter, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Gourlay, Harry

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Castle, Mrs. Barbara

    Grey, Charles

    Kelley, Richard

    Chapman, Donald

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Kenyon, Clifford

    Cliffe, Michael

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Collick, Percy

    Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

    King, Dr. Horace

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Grimond, J.

    Lawson, George

    Crosland, Anthony

    Gunter, Ray

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Cullen, Mrs. Alice

    Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

    Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

    Darting, George

    Hail, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Logan, David

    Davies,Rt.Hn.Clement(Montgomery)

    Hamilton, William (West Fife)

    Loughlin, Charles

    Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

    Hannan, William

    Mahon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Hart, Mrs. Julian

    McCann, John

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Hayman, F. H.

    MacColl, James

    Deer, George

    Healey, Den's

    McInnes, James

    Delargy, Hugh

    Henderson,Rt.Hn.Arthur(RwlyRegis)

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Dempsey, James

    Herbison, Miss Margaret

    McLeavy, Frank

    Diamond, John

    Hill, J. (Midlothian)

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Dodds, Norman

    Hilton, A. V.

    Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.)

    Donnelly, Desmond

    Holman, Percy

    Mapp, Charles

    Driberg, Tom

    Holt, Arthur

    Mason, Roy

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

    Houghton, Douglas

    Mellish, R. J.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. C.

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Millan, Bruce

    Milne, Edward J.

    Rhodes, H.

    Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Roberts, Albert (Nortmanton)

    Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

    Monslow, W alter

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

    Moody, A. S.

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    Thornton, Ernest

    Morris, John

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Thorpe, Jeremy

    Mort, D. L.

    Ross, William

    Timmons, John

    Moyle, Arthur

    Royle, Charles (Salford, West)

    Wade, Donald

    Neal, Harold

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Wainwright, Edwin

    Oliver, G. H.

    Short, Edward

    Warbey, William

    Oram, A. E.

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Watkins, Tudor

    Oswald, Thomas

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Weitzman, David

    Owen, Will

    Skeffington, Arthur

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Padley, W. E.

    Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

    White, Mrs. Eirene

    Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

    Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

    Wigg, George

    Parker, John

    Small, William

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Paton, John

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Willey, Frederick

    Pavitt, Laurence

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Williams, D. J. (Heath)

    Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Williams, LI. (Abertillery)

    Pearl, Frederick

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

    Pentland, Norman

    Steele, Thomas

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Stones, William

    Winterbottom, R. E.

    Prentice, R. E.

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R, (Vauxhall)

    Woof, Robert

    Probert, Arthur

    Stross,Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

    Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

    Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

    Symonds, J. B.

    Zilliacus, K.

    Randall, Harry

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Reid, William

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Mr. Redhead and Mr. Cronin.

    NOES

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

    Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

    Aitken, W. T

    Craddock, Sir Berestord

    Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

    Allason, James

    Critchley, Julian

    Hendry, Forbes

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian

    Crowder, F. P.

    Hiley, Joseph

    Arbuthnot, John

    Cunningham, Knox

    Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

    Ashton, Sir Hubert

    Curran, Charles

    Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

    Atkins, Humphrey

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

    Barber, Anthony

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hocking, Philip N.

    Barlow, Sir John

    Dance, James

    Holland, Philip

    Barter, John

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Hollingworth, John

    Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

    Deedes, W. F.

    Hopkins, Alan

    Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

    de Ferranti, Basil

    Hornby, R. P.

    Bell, Ronald

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

    Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Dame P.

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Cos & Fhm)

    Doughty, Charles

    Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives)

    Berkeley, Humphry

    du Cann, Edward

    Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

    Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald

    Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

    Hughes-Young, Michael

    Bitten, John

    Eden, John

    Hurd, Sir Anthony

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Bingham, R. M.

    Elliott,R.W.(Nwcstle-upon-Tyne,N.)

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

    Emery, Peter

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Bishop, F. P.

    Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

    James, David

    Black, Sir Cyril

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Bourne-Arran, A.

    Erroll, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Box, Donald

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J.

    Farr, John

    Jones, Rt.Hn. Aubrey (Hall Green)

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Finlay, Graeme

    Joseph, Sir Keith

    Braine, Bernard

    Fisher, Nigel

    Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

    Bromley-Davenport,Lt.-Col.SirWalter

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    Kerby, Capt. Henry

    Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Fraser, Hn. Hugh (Stafford & Stone)

    Kerr, Sir Hamilton

    Brooman-White, R.

    Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Kitson, Timothy

    Brown, Aran (Tottenham)

    Freeth, Denzil

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Browne, Percy (Torrington)

    Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Bryan, Paul

    George, J. C. (Pollok)

    Leburn, Gilmour

    Bullard, Denys

    Gibson-Watt, David

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

    Gilmour, Sir John

    Lilley, F. J. P.

    Burden, F. A.

    Goodhart, Philip

    Linstead, Sir Hugh

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Gower, Raymond

    Litchfield, Capt. John

    Butler, Rt.Hn.R.A,(Saffron Walden)

    Grant, Rt. Hon. William

    Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

    Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

    Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R.

    Longbottom, Charles

    Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

    Green, Alan

    Longden, Gilbert

    Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Loveys, Walter H.

    Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

    Grimston, Sir Robert

    Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Gurden, Harold

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Half, John (Wycombe)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Chataway, Christopher

    Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

    MacArthur, Ian

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Hare, Rt. Hon. John

    McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

    Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Cleaver, Leonard

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Maclean,SirFitzroy(Bute&N Ayrs.)

    Cole, Norman

    Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

    Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Cooke, Robert

    Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    McMaster, Stanley R.

    Cordeaux, L t.-Col. J. K.

    Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Corfield, F. V.

    Harvie Anderson, Miss

    Maddan, Martin

    Costain, A. P.

    Hastings, Stephen

    Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

    Coulson, J. M.

    Hay, John

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    1454

    1455

    Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest

    Prior, J. M. L.

    Teeling, William

    Marshall, Douglas

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho

    Temple, John M.

    Marten, Neil

    Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

    Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

    Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

    Pym, Francis

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Mawby, Ray

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Thomas, Peter (Conway)

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Ramsden, James

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

    Rawlinson, Peter

    Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

    Mills, Stratton

    Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

    Tilney, John (Wavertree)

    Montgomery, Fergus

    Rees, Hugh

    Turner, Colin

    More, Jasper (Ludlow)

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Morgan, William

    Renton, David

    van Straubenzee, W. R.

    Morrison, John

    Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

    Vane, W.M. F.

    Mort-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Nabarro, Gerald

    Robson Brown, Sir William

    Vickers, Mist Joan

    Nicholls, Sir Harmar

    Roots, William

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

    Russell, Ronald

    Walder, David

    Nugent, Sir Richard

    St. Clair, M.

    Walker, Peter

    Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

    Scott-Hopkins, James

    Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Seymour, Leslie

    Ward, Dame Irene

    Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

    Sharpies, Richard

    Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

    Osborn, John (Hallam)

    Shaw, M.

    Webster, David

    Osborne, sir Cyril (Louth)

    Shepherd, William

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Page, John (Harrow, West)

    Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir Jocelyn

    Whitelaw, William

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Skeet, T. H. H.

    Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

    Pannell, Norman (Kirkdate)

    Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'rd & Chiswick)

    Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

    Partridge, E.

    Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Wise, A. R.

    Peel, John

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

    Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

    Peyton, John

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard

    Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

    Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)

    Woodhouse, C. M.

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Talbot, John E.

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Pilkington, Sir Richard

    Tapsell, Peter

    Woollam, John

    Pitman, Sir James

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Worsley, Marcus

    Pitt, Miss Edith

    Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

    Yates, William (The Wrekin)

    Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

    Taylor, F. (M'ch'ter & Moss Side)

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Mr. Noble and Mr. McLaren.

    The Chairman: The Ayes were 268, the Noes 193, so the Noes have it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is the wrong way round. The Ayes have it.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: On a point of order. Once the result of a Division has been announced from the Chair, surely it is part of the record of the House and is binding on us.
    The Chairman: The next Amendment is—
    Mr. Gordon Walker: On a point of order. May I ask, Sir Gordon, whether both your remarks will be recorded in HANSARD? Will both results of the Division be recorded in HANSARD?
    The Chairman: I do not know what HANSARD reports. That is for HANSARD.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: If they were both reported, what position would we be in?
    Mr. S. Silverman: Is there not a question of prior importance to what is recorded in HANSARD? After all, HANSARD is only a report of the speeches. Is not the important thing what the Votes and Proceedings record as a result of this Division in view of what you have said, Sir Gordon?
    The Chairman: The next Amendment—
    Hon. Members: Oh.
    7.0 p.m.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Sir Gordon, your announcements of two different results of the Division were made in the hearing of the whole Committee, and. presumably, of the person who keeps—what is it called?—the Votes and Proceedings. Therefore, I should like to ask you—this may affect our discussion of subsequent Amendments; in fact, it must—whether both of these decisions are to be recorded in that important record.
    The Chairman: The Ayes to the right were 193 and the Noes 268, so the Noes have it.
    Mr. George Brown: Further to that point of order, Sir Gordon. We understand you now to be saying, though originally you said exactly the opposite, that the Ayes have it. This is more than just a small matter. If it is open to the Chair on any grounds, no matter what the grounds are, to reverse its declared decision, then there is no finality in the proceedings of this House. You made a clear announcement. We are asking you whether the Votes and Proceedings

    1457
    will carry your previous announcement as well as the one you are now declaring to be the correct announcement.
    The Chairman: The Votes and Proceedings will carry the correct announcement.
    Mr. Brown: But what is the correct one?
    The Chairman: The next Amendment is No. 141.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: On a point of order, Sir Gordon. I was hoping that you would call for a Division—not, of course, for discussion, because we agreed to discuss them together—on the various Amendments that we have been discussing together. It is, of course, clear—and you announced it at the beginning of the debate—that we were to discuss them together, but it is, I submit, extremely important that these Amendments, each of which concerns a different sovereign member of the Commonwealth, should be separately divided upon.
    It would really be very extraordinary if we recorded our decision—however it was, in fact, recorded—on Ghana and not on Nigeria, Canada, Australia and other great and equal countries of the Commonwealth. It is, as you have heard, Sir Gordon, part of our case that the Government are introducing discriminations into the Commonwealth, and I am sure that the Chair would not want to do that. Therefore, I hope that you will allow us to divide on each of these Amendments.
    The Chairman: I called the first Amendment, and the others were to be discussed with it. I did not call the other Amendments. They have not been moved, and I have not called them to be moved.
    Mr. Jay: Further to the point of order, Sir Gordon. Surely this is a very extraordinary Ruling. It is, of course, within the discretion of the Chair not to select an Amendment for discussion at all, but these Amendments were clearly selected for discussion, because they were discussed—not adequately, but they certainly have been discussed. What power has the Chair first to select an Amendment for discussion and then to deny the Committee the right to divide on it? I submit that it certainly has not that power.
    The Chairman: The right hon. Gentleman cannot say that. He must be very well aware that this is a most familiar practice. The Chair calls a number of Amendments; one is the selected Amendment, and the rest are debated with it.
    Mr. Jay: Further to the point of order, Sir Gordon. The familiar practice, which has often been followed in the Finance Bill proceedings, is that a number of Amendments are discussed in a group. If the Committee does not wish to vote on more than one of them, then only one vote is taken. But, of course, the understanding is—and, so far as I know, the Chairman has no right whatever to deny it to the House—that if a sufficient number of hon. Members wish to vote, then we are entitled to do so.
    The Chairman: The Chair has the right to select Amendments, but it has not selected the other Amendments.
    Mr. Hale: Further to the point of order, Sir Gordon. I was present when the debate opened, and I would venture to try to recall to you the circumstance under which it opened. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) rose to move her Amendment. The intervention came from you, Sir Gordon, sitting in the Chair. You said, "I think that it would be for the convenience of the Committee if we proceeded to discuss certain Amendments together", specifying the ones which we have been discussing and excluding that which deals with the Republic of Ireland.
    So a discussion was opened on the invitation of the Chair, not because someone on the back benches or the Front Benches rose and said, "Is it permissible for us to make reference to other Amendments that you have not selected, Sir Gordon?" There was no suggestion that they were not selected. We were not given any intimation that they were not selected.
    With respect, Sir Gordon, had you said, "I select Ghana, but I do not select Nigeria" we might well have had a very respectful but rather prolonged, or at least intent and earnest, discussion on why the Chair had thought fit to select Ghana and not Nigeria.
    After you left the Chair, Sir Gordon, and Mr. Williams took your place, there

    1459
    was some discussion, and some points of order were raised about the extent and ambit of the discussion in relation to Sierra Leone. I would, therefore, suggest—I am sure that I am expressing the very strong feeling of the Committee—that if there has been any misapprehension at this stage then it is not our fault. If there is a misapprehension and it had not been your intention to call the Amendment about Nigeria, it will, I submit, now be open to us to raise with you the question whether the Amendment about Nigeria should be called, because the Committee has never been aware of a decision not to call the Amendment about Nigeria.
    I suggest that in all these circumstances the position would surely be met by accepting the implication of the intimation that was given from the Chair and by calling the Amendment relating to Nigeria, even if it be only for a vote.
    The Chairman: No. This is the usual procedure. One Amendment is selected and the Chair will say that other Amendments may be debated with it but it is not proposed to call the other Amendments. The other Amendments in this case have not been selected by me and cannot be moved or be divided upon.
    Mr. G. Brown: Further to the point of order, Sir Gordon. How does one debate an Amendment which has not been selected or called? The usual procedure, which we understand, is that to ensure that the Committee shall not have repetitious debate, a debate takes place on one Amendment in the course of which points raised by other Amendments may be discussed, and we understand—it is the usual procedure—that when a Division takes place on the first Amendment, there is no further discussion on the other Amendments. But it is surely the most unusual procedure to refuse the Committee the right to express its opinion on the other Amendments.
    The first of the Amendments today raises the subject of Ghana. One can understand your saying that, for the purpose of debate and the better use of our time, many of the principles—or most of the principles—concerning Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Australia, or
    1460
    Canada arise on the Amendment dealing with Ghana, but what one cannot understand is your saying that because the House has decided about Ghana, it has, therefore, also decided about Sierra Leone or about Australia or about Canada.
    I submit to you, Sir Gordon, that it would be quite out of keeping with the ordinary practice of the Committee for you to deny the Committee the right to express its view on Amendments which you have permitted to be discussed—not only which you have permitted to be discussed, but which you yourself suggested should be discussed at a particular time, which, I understand, appeared on the list which is posted somewhere at the portals of this Chamber by your command, showing the Amendments that are to be discussed.
    By every act which you have taken Sir Gordon—by posting the list showing which Amendments were selected, by calling the Amendments, by indicating to the Committee what in your view would be the most convenient way of discussing them; by every overt action which you could take—you have indicated that, in your view, these Amendments were Amendments proper for debate this afternoon.
    You then indicated that you thought that it would be for the convenience of the Committee if those Amendments were, in fact, debated together. My right hon. and hon. Friends did not choose to argue that with you. They fell in happily with your wishes. But what we are now faced with is that, we having fallen in with your wishes about meeting the convenience of the Committee from the point of view of discussion and securing the economy of our time, you are now seeking to deny us the right which we should otherwise have asked for at the very beginning—to vote, to express our views and to be counted on each of the Amendments which you have yourself selected.
    With very great respect, I submit to you that to say, as you have done three or four times, that this is quite a usual procedure is not so. It is a most unusual procedure. What is usual about it is the grouping of Amendments for discussion. I submit to you that what is most unusual is that when the House has been induced to agree with you on

    1461
    that, then to deny hon. Members the right to divide on the individual Amendments. I beg you to reconsider this Ruling—it will give rise to a great deal of heart searching—and to allow us our right to stand up and be counted on the Amendments which have allowed us to debate.
    The Chairman: The right hon. Gentleman will see that we have followed the usual procedure, for if one looks at the notice which I had placed in the "Noes" Lobby, one will see that the Amendments to be discussed together are shown in brackets, and separate from those which are not selected. The Committee cannot give a decision as to which Amendments were not selected. They have not been selected, cannot be moved and, consequently, cannot be voted upon.
    Mr. Eric Fletcher: May I put another point to you, Sir Gordon, which, I think, will show that the situation in which we now find ourselves is unique, and can be differentiated from any similar occurrence. At the outset, it was proposed by you that we should embark on a discussion on the Amendment about Ghana, and it was indicated, at the same time, we could discuss other Amendments on the Notice Paper.
    During that debate, a number of my hon. Friends, one after the other, made it clear that they were concerned with specific territories. One of my hon. Friends referred specifically to Ghana, and another of my hon. Friends devoted a whole speech to Canada, while another referred specifically to Australia, making it quite clear that a number of hon. Members were concerned to argue the merits of each of these members of the Commonwealth. That debate continued for some time, when the Closure was moved.
    You will appreciate, Sir Gordon, that at that time some of these countries have not been mentioned at all. One of my hon. Friends had not been called to speak about India, and another had not mentioned Ceylon. Therefore, the argument in respect of some of these Commonwealth countries had not been mentioned at all at the moment when the Motion was moved from the Treasury Bench, "That the Question be now put." The Committee agreed to
    1462
    the Closure Motion, but I am quite sure that the Committee, in agreeing to closure the debate on Ghana, must not be construed as having reached a conclusion that it was time that the Committee reached a decision on territories other than Ghana.
    The Committee could not possibly have considered, when that closure decision was taken, that it was time to bring to a conclusion of the debate on Ceylon, which had not been mentioned, or on Pakistan, which, also, had not been mentioned. Therefore, I think that in all seriousness—
    The Chairman: Order. The Committee has not been asked to take a decision on Pakistan.
    Mr. Fletcher: With great respect, Sir Gordon, I am urging that you having now accepted the Closure Motion, and that Motion having been voted upon by the Committee, the correct interpretation to he put upon that Closure vote was that the Committee then wished to reach a decision on Ghana. Surely we cannot interpret the vote of the Committee to come to a decision on Ghana as meaning, that the Committee was also prepared without a vote to reach a decision on Australia or Canada, which had been debated, and still less on India or Pakistan, or Ceylon, which had not been raised at all.
    Therefore, it seems to me that in this particular case, where a Closure Motion was moved in respect of Ghana, and where it has been recognised that separate and distinct issues arise in respect of other territories of the Commonwealth, the Committee ought not, in any circumstances, to be deprived of the right of expressing its opinion on whether these other countries should be included in or excluded from the Bill.
    The Chairman: I understand that the hon. Member objects to the practice of one Amendment being selected, and other Amendments being discussed with it.
    Mr. G. Brown: No.
    The Chairman: The alternative to that, of course, is for the Chair to exercise much more drastic action in the selection of Amendments. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I do not think that that would be for the convenience of hon.

    1463
    Members. What we have done in this case is to come to a decision on the Amendment which was moved. Of course, the Committee has not come to a decision on the Amendments which are not selected, because they were not moved.
    Mr. Charles Hoyle: May I put another point to you, Sir Gordon? We have a list here of about 10 Amendments which it was agreed should be taken together, and you kindly agreed to this so as to facilitate the business of the Committee. After a debate of two and a half hours on nine Amendments, the Government Deputy Chief Whip rose in his place and moved the Closure Motion. I submit to you that two and a half hours was quite insufficient—
    The Chairman: Order. We cannot debate that.
    Mr. Royle: If we cannot debate that, Sir Gordon, may I point out to you that we have not had the opportunity of having a full debate? We surely have a right to have an opportunity of expressing ourselves. For example, I never had the opportunity of making the impassioned speech which I wanted to make on India, which might have taken quite a long time. I therefore submit that I have a right to go into the Lobby and declare myself on this matter, because I was unable to make that speech on the Floor of the Committee. I submit that there is no real reason why we should be prevented from voting on each of the Amendments relating to these important territories.
    The Chairman: I was looking for the hon. Member to make his impassioned speech on India, but I could not find him there at the time.
    Mr. William Ross: May I submit to you, Sir Gordon, that your decision on this matter must surely reflect on the debate we have had. From all my experience in this House, and I admit that there are many hon. Members with more experience, we have never been allowed to discuss on any Amendment another Amendment that has not been selected? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] No, never. We were always called to order. The very fact that we were able
    1464
    to discuss these things was by virtue of the fact that you had selected the Amendments for discussion. Surely it has always been the practice of the House for the Chair to do that, and to invite the Committee to agree to it, from the point of view of convenience and the saving of time in debate.
    7.15 p.m.
    Is it not also the practice of the House that the selection of Divisions on particular Amendments that have been so discussed is a matter for those hon. Members whose names appear at the top of the Amendments? From the point of view of the convenience of our proceedings, I can quite see that if, in future, we group Amendments in this way, anyone will be able to rise to a point of order, and ask whether or not it is in order so to do, when we are only to have a proper orderly debate on the first Amendment to be moved.
    The Chairman: I do not see the hon. Member's difficulty. It is usual to have a debate on one Amendment and discuss other Amendments with or without calling the second or further Amendments for a Division.
    Mr. Hale: May I submit this point to you, Sir Gordon, because this is a personal problem? I claim that my name has been associated with civil liberties, and I would not have voted for the exclusion of Ghana if I had not thought that we should be able to vote for the exclusion of Australia, Canada, and so on. Why should I select to do this only for Dr. Nkrumah? The result is that the Committee has taken a decision under a misapprehension, and I think there are many hon. Members who will be concerned if they feel that people in Toronto tonight think that the House of Commons was quite willing to exclude a State where civil liberties are beginning to disappear, but was not prepared to give the same privilege to a senior Commonwealth country with which we have had such close and friendly relations for very many years. This is a serious point, and I hope that it will be possible for some of us to vote according to our consciences on this matter.
    The Chairman: That is an interesting point, but I do not think that it is a point of order.
    Mr. Denis Howell: This is a most serious matter, as you, Sir Gordon, no doubt appreciate. I spoke for 30 minutes during the debate and never mentioned Ghana. I conducted my speech on the basis of Australia, particularly, but also Canada and New Zealand. My submission to you is that if you had not selected the Amendment relating to Australia and other Amendments the whole of my speech must have been out of order. Therefore, in some way it is a reflection on the Chair that I was allowed for 30 minutes to address the Committee on a matter which was not in order.
    The Chairman: It was not out of order. It was agreed by the Chair that the other Amendments could be discussed with the first one. I would point out to hon. Members who are raising this matter that they are suggesting that in future the Chair should use a much more drastic power of selection.
    Mr. G. Brown: That is not what we are asking you to do at all, Sir Gordon. A decision taken by the Chair is not taken for any bargaining purposes. You did not bargain with anybody about this. You made a decision, as the Chair, about the rights of the situation and in the full exercise of your duties and responsibilities you decided that it was proper that we should debate some Amendments and not others. There was no element of bargaining in that and you would never permit us to bargain with you about it. But I suggest that when you have exercised your duties and you have decided that certain Amendments may be debated, albeit you then suggest that we should debate them together, certain consequences follow.
    One consequence that follows is that we should be able to divide on the Amendments which you have selected, even though we understand that we may not debate them subsequent to the first Division and that the rest will be purely formal after the first Division. The Committee may not want to divide on all of them, but we suggest that as a result of your first decision, taken with all your responsibility in the Chair, you have made one other consequence naturally to follow and that is the right of the Committee now to declare itself
    1466
    on the Amendments you yourself chose—
    The Chairman: It is the duty of the Chair to select Amendments. It can select Amendments to be debated and to be voted on and can suggest that other Amendments can be discussed though they are not selected. The other Amendments can be debated but they are not selected to be moved.
    Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
    Miss Lee: On a point of order. Will you please explain, Sir Gordon, whether when I voted in the Lobby I was voting only on the issue of Ghana or was I also voting on the issue of India, Australia and all the other countries that come into this? Furthermore, will you explain what protection the Chair can give to any hon. Member who might wish to vote for Ghana but might not wish to vote for Australia or Canada?
    The Chairman: The hon. Lady was voting on the Amendment which was about Ghana.
    Miss Lee: And nothing else?
    The Chairman: No.
    Mr. Hugh Delargy: May I draw your attention, Sir Gordon, to the title of the Bill, which is "Commonwealth Immigrants Bill"? It concerns the Commonwealth. Is it not therefore rather odd that we are not allowed to vote about Australia, Canada and New Zealand which are sovereign States inside the Commonwealth?
    The Chairman: I am afraid that we cannot discuss now the selection of Amendments by the Chair.
    Mr. Delargy: That is not my point. We have not been allowed to vote on member States of the Commonwealth, but presumably we shall vote on the next Amendment which concerns Southern Ireland which is not in the Commonwealth at all.
    The Chairman: We are concerned now with these Amendments. The next Amendment is not a matter for me.
    Mr. E. L Mallalieu: May I draw your attention, Sir Gordon, to the notice which you kindly put up in the "Noes" Lobby and to the heading on

    1467
    it? I have it in my hand for the purpose of greater accuracy. The heading is "Provisional Selection". I submit that the word "selection" means that an Amendment can be discussed and voted upon, and I submit to you that there is no authority for the proposition that "selection" means only "debatable". When for many hours this afternoon we were discussing the Bill—
    The Chairman: Order. Has the hon. and learned Member any point of order to raise? The notice quite clearly names the Amendments selected and the Amendments to be discussed with them are named in brackets, but if the hon. and learned Member deprecates my having put up the notice, as having caused misunderstanding, I will refrain from putting up a notice in future.
    Mr. Mallalieu: No, I am not deprecating that. It was for the convenience of the Committee and the Committee is most grateful to you for having put it up, but on the meaning of "selection" there is no authority for the proposition that "selection" does not mean "debatable and votable". The fact that it was provisional is quite irrelevant to this question.
    The Chairman: I am sorry if it is not clear in the notice and if the notice may have led to some misunderstanding. It has been used many times in the past.
    Mr. Ross: You said, Sir Gordon, that these Amendments had not been selected. This means that in our practice in the past we have been able to vote on an Amendment which was not selected. How was that possible?
    The Chairman: Those Amendments were discussed with other Amendments. When an hon. Member has voted a second time it has been when the Amendment has been formally moved with the leave of the Chair because it has been selected.
    Mr. Fletcher: We all accept, Sir Gordon, and it is of great convenience to the Committee that you should make a provisional selection of Amendments and put up the notice in the No Lobby. We accept that that is very useful, but it is what it says—it is provisional. There is nothing rigid or final about it. It is completely within your competence to change it.
    1468
    You can change your mind about the selection of Amendments just as you were able to change your mind about the recording of the Vote. It is perfectly competent and within your duty to decide on the existing situation now whether it is right or wrong that the Committee should have an opportunity of recording its votes on Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Sierra Leone and other places. It is not fair to the Committee to say that because you made a provisional selection of Amendments and discussed that with interested Members some time ago that that is final and binds you, the Committee, or anybody else.
    The Chairman: I do not feel bound by the notice which I have put up in the Division Lobby and therefore that point does not arise.
    Mr. Fletcher: But what we are asking you to do—and we can forget the provisional selection—is that in the circumstances of the moment, you having made a few days ago a provisional selection, and we having had a debate which was inconclusive and ranged over a fairly wide field but did not touch some of the subjects and that debate having been closured, is in your sole discretion to decide whether or not it is right that the Committee should be able to vote on the other Amendment.
    The Chairman: The hon. Member is asking me to alter my selection of Amendments. I do not propose to do so.
    7.30 p.m.
    Mr. Fletcher: I must try to make this point plain, Sir Gordon. With great respect, we are not asking you to do anything of the kind. We are not challenging your provisional selection, or your selection, or anything in the way in which you have conducted our discussions up to this moment. It may be the fault of myself and of my right hon. and hon. Friends if we have not made clear to you what we are asking.
    We are asking you now, in the circumstances of this moment, not to feel yourself bound or fettered by a provisional selection of Amendments, but to say that it is right and fair to the Committee that it should have the opportunity of expressing its views on Amendments

    1469
    that are on the Notice Paper, some of which have been discussed and others of which have not been discussed. I beg of you to say that that does not in any way involve any challenge to your selection or any departure from the way in which our discussions have been conducted so far.
    May I make two propositions? The first is that I contend that you are perfectly competent to decide—and it is open to you to do so in your discretion at this moment—to call for Divisions, but without further debate, on these other Amendments. You are perfectly free to do that. There is no rule of the Committee, or of the House, or in Erskine May, that debars you from doing that.
    The Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman is asking me to change my decision about the selection of Amendments. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] We cannot discuss the selection of Amendments by the Chair.
    Mr. Fletcher: Further to that point of order, Sir Gordon. We are not asking you to change any decision about selection. We are asking you, in the circumstances which have arisen, to have regard to the rights and wishes of the Committee, particularly the grievance and difficulties—
    The Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman is out of order now.
    Mr. R. J. Mellish: I have a new point of order, Sir Gordon. I understood that we were allowed to discuss a group of Amendments, but that now we can only vote on one. That means that, from the point of view of debating, these proceedings have become, in a sense, a farce. If there had been a vote on each Amendment, which we consider to be necessary, it could have worked out that I would have voted about Ghana and about Nigeria, and so on. but that when it came to Canada [ might have opposed my party. The position in which you have put me is that I have voted on one Amendment, but that that vote embraced a whole lot of Amendments. I thought that we were to vote on each Amendment.
    This is not a debating Chamber if, at the end of the day, after we have been discussing individual Amendments as a group, we do not have the right to
    1470
    express, by vote, our opinions on the rest. Is not that illogical?
    The Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman has not really raised a point of order at all. We cannot vote on a number of Amendments which have not been selected.
    Mr. Mellish: May be. But it is very interesting.
    Mr. Denis Howell: May I return to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross)? He asked you about previous practice in the Committee in respect of this situation, and how it was that, in debate on the Finance Bill in Committee, we have a combined discussion on three or four Amendments.
    The Chairman: Order. I am sorry. I have tried to explain the situation to the best of my ability. We cannot go on discussing this indefinitely on points of order. We must get on with the debate.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: On a point of order, Sir Gordon. I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again".
    The Chairman: I cannot Motion at this stage.
    Mr. Jay: On a point of order, Sir Gordon. Surely this is an intolerable situation and is really bringing the whole proceedings of this Committee to a farce. First, our attempt to have a serious discussion on the Bill is closured by one of the Whips after an obviously inadequate period for discussion.
    Hon. Members: No.
    The Chairman: Order. I cannot hear the right hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Jay: Secondly, the Committee was deprived of voting on a number of Amendments on which, clearly, it wished to vote. Thirdly, are you really suggesting that the Committee should be denied the right even to discuss the Motion to report Progress in order to discover whether it is possible to go on with the discussion at all in these circumstances?
    Surely it is absolutely intolerable if we can neither debate the Bill nor vote on it nor even discuss a Motion to report Progress, for that means that our

    1471
    proceedings are being brought to a farce. Hon. Members and the country will draw the inference that the Government are not merely ashamed of the Bill, but are ashamed for the House even to be allowed to discuss it.
    The Chairman: I cannot accept the Motion to report Progress at this stage. The next Amendment—
    Mr. Ellis Smith: On a point of order, Sir Gordon.
    The Chairman: There is no point of order. The next Amendment—[Interruption.]
    Mr. G. Brown: May I raise a point of order, Sir Gordon? I distinctly heard you say to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith), who was asking leave to raise a point of order, "There is no point of order." At that stage you had not heard my hon. Friend. I put it to you, with great respect, that firm chairmanship is one thing, but that, if we are to be denied everything we seek to do because you are determined to move on, it constitutes an invidious and impossible situation.
    I have no means of knowing how you know what is the point of order my hon. Friend wishes to raise, but I submit that it is the inalienable right of any hon. Member, if he feels that he has a point of order, to put it to you before you tell him that he has not got a point of order.
    The Chairman: It is not the inalienable right of any hon. Member to get up when the Chair is standing. No point of order has been made.
    Mr. Brown: Will you, then, say how an hon. Member can raise a point of order? If what you have just said means that, so long as you stand on your feet and reel off a series of Amendments, none of us will be allowed to rise and the whole lot can be carried whilst we vainly protest, then that Ruling cannot make sense. I ask you to give your serious consideration to this, because otherwise we shall get the Committee into a tangle—perhaps the Leader of the House would like to help—not only on this Bill, but on our whole proceedings.
    1472
    If you are standing, and are clearly inviting the Committee to proceed to next business, and an hon. Member wishes to catch your eye to raise a point of order, he can only do it by standing up and asking leave to do so. I submit that, in those circumstances, it is the age-old tradition of the Chair to allow that hon. Member to seek to raise that point of order.
    If, at any stage while he is doing so, the Chair apprehends or decides that it is not, in its view, a valid point of order, then the Chair interrupts the hon. Member, notwithstanding the fact that he is on his feet, and declares it not to be a point of order. In my fifteen years as a Member of the House of Commons, I have never heard anyone in the Chair rule out a claim for an opportunity to raise a point of order before the Chair has heard it, merely on the ground that the Chair was on its feet when the hon. Member concerned chose to raise his point of order.
    There are here involved not the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill, not the rights of the Opposition, nor even the rights of my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith). There are here involved the rights of every hon. Member. If any hon. Member thinks that he has a point of order, I claim the right on his behalf to put it to you and to be heard by you before you decide that he is not to be allowed to put it.
    The Chairman: The Chair is not bound to sit down because an hon. Member raises a point of order.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: On a point of order, Sir Gordon. I think that you will agree that I always show great respect for the Chair. I think that the Chair should reciprocate and hear hon. Members in accordance with our Standing Orders.
    My point of order is that a serious conflict has arisen with regard to the correct interpretation of Standing Orders when the House is sitting as a Committee. As this conflict has arisen, I suggest, with respect, that, as a way out of the difficulty, you ought to accept the Motion moved by my right hon. Friend.
    The Chairman: I cannot accept that Motion.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: This is a serious matter. Some of us have been here fighting for extra coppers and shillings on unemployment benefit, and what was at stake on those occasions is at stake now. As there is a conflict between the Chair and the Committee, I suggest that the correct way out of the difficulty is for you to accept this Motion so that we can send for Mr. Speaker.
    The Chairman: We cannot debate a decision of the Chair.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: The time has arrived when the only way to resolve this conflict between the Chair and the Committee is to send for Mr. Speaker, so that we can put our case to him. I know what has happened in the past when situations like this have arisen, and I suggest that in accordance with the usual practice the Chair should accept the Motion so that Mr. Speaker can take the Chair.
    The Chairman: I refuse to accept that Motion.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Sir Gordon, you refused that Motion some time ago. May I ask leave, once more, to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again."
    The Chairman: I am not prepared to accept that Motion.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: May I move, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair"?
    The Chairman: I cannot accept that Motion, either.
    The next Amendment—
    Mr. Jay: On a point of order, Sir Gordon. What remedy has the Committee in a situation like this? I would have thought that you would have regarded it as your responsibility to uphold the rights of the House and to maintain confidence in the Chair.
    The Chairman: If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to criticise the Chair, he must put down the usual Motion.
    Mr. Jay: I am not criticising the Chair. I said that I assumed it would be your wish to uphold the rights of the Chair and the liberty of hon. Members. It is surely perfectly clear
    1474
    that a large number of hon. Members on this side of the Committee wish to continue the debate and to have a number of Divisions which you did not allow, and now wish to discuss the Motion, " That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again."
    Surely when that is the plain wish of a large number of hon. Members, at any rate on this side of the Committee, it is reducing the Committee to an extraordinary situation to deny hon. Members their rights, and deny them the possibility of discussing the Motion.
    The Chairman: The right hon. Gentleman cannot go on debating the decision of the Chair.
    Mr. Jay: I asked you a question, Sir Gordon. I asked how, in these circumstances, it was possible for the rights of the Committee to be maintained, and for confidence in the Chair to be maintained.
    7.45 p.m.
    The Chairman: It has been maintained. The normal procedure is being followed.
    Mr. Tom Driberg: On a point of order, Sir Gordon.
    The Chairman: I cannot accept any more points of order.
    Mr. Driberg: It is a new point of order, Sir Gordon.
    The Chairman: If we cannot go on with the debate, it may be my duty to adjourn the Committee.
    Mr. Driberg: On a point of order. With respect, Sir Gordon, you said that the only alternative course before hon. Members was to put down a Motion regarding yourself. May I, with great respect, remind you, although I am not sure that I heard your last observation, that there is one other alternative? There are precedents for the suspension of the sitting when there is grave disorder. I hope that you are not going to drive us to grave disorder.
    Mr. John Dugdale: Sir Gordon, I find your Ruling difficult to understand. Would you give us the precedent which has disposed you to make this Ruling, because, frankly, I do not know it?
    The Chairman: The right hon. Gentleman clearly does know it.
    Mr. Dugdale: I am referring to your Ruling about not being allowed to vote on Amendments in these circumstances.
    The Chairman: I should have thought that the right hon. Member knew that a long time ago.
    Mr. A. Fenner Brockway: There is one Member of the House who has a special responsibility to defend the rights of the House, and that is the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House. I suggest that he should not remain silent, but should speak on behalf of hon. Members.
    The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Iain Macleod): Sir Gordon, if this is a point of order, let me make it quite clear that it is not for me, or any Member of the House, to instruct the Chair in its duty, but to support the Chair in the Rulings it gives; and that we will do.
    Mr. G. Brown: Further to that, Sir Gordon. I gather that the Leader of the House was allowed to rise to a point of order. May I now put this to you? The right hon. Gentleman was asked to rise as Leader of the House. He spoke as Leader of the House, and not as a Government Minister. You must have heard his remarks. They must have caused you grave perturbation. He said, "We will uphold the Rulings of the Chair". At that stage—[Interruption.] Would the Leader of the House like to repeat what he said? If the Leader of the House does not correct me it must be presumed that what I am saying is what he said. What I am putting to you is that if the Leader of the House rises at the invitation of individual Members, at a time when those Members are in difficulty with the Chair, and declares, without any question about the merits of the case, that he regards his duty, as Leader of the House, in all circumstances to support the Chair, that is a grave dereliction of his duty as Leader of the House.
    We all come new to various jobs, but I would have thought that what anyone who aspires to his office would understand is that he is here to defend the rights of minorities and the rights of the House. If he takes the view that
    1476
    under no circumstances can the House have any protection from the Leader of the House, there can be very little respect for the office that the right hon. Gentleman claims to hold.
    The Chairman: The right hon. Gentleman does not seem to be raising a point of order.
    Mr. Brown: May I endeavour to make clear to you the point that I am raising, Sir Gordon? On the point of order which the Leader of the House claimed to be making he made a statement as Leader of the House which was completely out of harmony with our traditions—[HON. MEMBERS: "That is not a point of order."] This is my point of order: we now find ourselves in a position in which, for more than an hour, every point that we have raised has been ruled out by the Chair without any reason being given; the Leader of the House now tells us that in no circumstances will he do other than support the Chair.
    I ask you what are our rights, short of doing things that we would not want to do, in a free Committee—and this is not the Reichstag—[Interruption.] What are the rights of the Committee during the discussion of a hotly contested and largely detested Bill? What rights have we to protest when we are being steamrollered by the Chair and the Leader of the House?
    The Chairman: One of the rights of the House is to debate the Bill—
    Mr. Brown: And to vote on it.
    The Chairman: —which we are not doing at present. I hope that the Committee will now proceed—
    Hon. Members: No.
    Grave disorder having arisen in the Committee, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report the circumstances to the House.
    Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER resumed the Chair; and, pursuant to Standing Order No. 24 (Power of Mr. Speaker to adjourn House or suspend sitting), suspended the Sitting for half an hour.
    Mr. G. Brown: How can you suspend the House without the Mace?
    Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair;
    Whereupon the House again resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill.
    [Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]
    8.25 p.m
    Mr. G. Brown: On a point of order. At the point at which we concluded our previous proceedings the Mace was clearly, as it is now, below the Table. At a subsequent point, without anything being said, so that none of us was able to follow what was happening, you walked to the upper Chair and declared that the sitting suspended for half an hour. At that point the Mace was still where it is now. The Serjeant at Arms arrived after you had in fact left the Chamber and hurriedly raised the Mace to the upper position. May I ask you, on a point of order, which sitting was suspended? Did you understand that you were suspending the House at a point when the House was still in Committee, as, I submit to you, Sir, with the Mace down there, it clearly was?
    The Chairman: The House ceased to be in Committee when I left the Chair. Later, I suspended the House.
    Mr. Brown: Further to that point of order. In that case, what significance does the Mace have in our proceedings? It has always been the understanding of many of us that the Mace occupied a particular place according to the status of the debating Chamber at that time. Are you saying that this is quite meaningless ceremonial and that the House is whatever you say it is at any given moment? May I ask you to consider this point? Are we to be guided both by where you are and where the Mace is?
    Further, may I submit to you that the constitutional practice is that the Chair is itself guided by where the Mace is and that the normal procedure is that when you leave the Committee Chair you go to the side and wait until the Serjeant at Arms comes here and moves the Mace, and then you assume the other Chair, just as on this immediate occasion you reversed the proceedings. When Mr. Speaker left the Chair of the House you waited until the Mace was removed
    1478
    down below the Table before you came in to take the Committee Chair. I therefore submit to you as a point of order that our proceedings at the end of the last sitting must have been wholly out of order since, I submit, you could not suspend the House at a time when clearly the House was still in Committee.
    The Chairman: I have explained the position about that.
    Sir Peter Agnew: On a point of order. It seems that the microphone at your Chair is a little weak, Sir Gordon, and it is very difficult to hear all your Rulings at this end of the Chamber.
    Mr. William Blyton: On a point of order. When the House is in grave disorder which demands suspension, is it right for the Chief Patronage Secretary to be in contact with the Clerk during that time?
    The Chairman: That is not a point of order. I think that we ought to get on with the Committee.
    Mr. G. Brown: I raise this, I ask you to believe, Sir Gordon, only because it must have a historical meaning. You have not answered my point, with respect, about the significance of the placing of the Mace. Each time you have said that you have answered, but you have not. Can we conduct proceedings in the House at a time when the Mace clearly indicates that we are in Committee?
    The Chairman: That is not a point of order.
    Mr. Brown: This is what caused the trouble before. Every time we rise to a genuine point of order, properly taken, we are merely brushed aside. Sir Gordon, what is the meaning of the place where the Mace resides? At this moment we are in Committee because it has been removed to below the Table. Could you suddenly again rise and conduct proceedings in the House while the Mace still lies down there? Before the Committee is asked to proceed any further, we must know the rules under which we are proceeding. I ask you, Sir Gordon, to say whether the House can go into session as a House while we are still in Committee. If we cannot, were not the whole of the proceedings which purported to suspend our sitting completely Out of order?
    8.30 p.m.
    The Chairman: Everything was done regularly.
    Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: Let me say at once, Sir Gordon, that I was not in the Committee at the relevant moment, as you probably know. However, I think that the point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) is important. It is quite a simple point. We are not concerned so much with the question whether the Committee continued in session after you had left the Chair. I take it that your Ruling was that, the moment you left the Chair, whatever happened to the Mace the Committee was no longer in session.
    We are concerned with the point at which the House comes into session. My question is a very direct and simple one. Does the House come into existence as a House immediately you take your seat in that Chair, even if the Mace is below the Table, or does the Mace have to be put above the Table before the House can be said to be sitting?
    The Chairman: I cannot discuss the position of the Mace.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Would you mind repeating that, Sir Gordon? I cannot hear.
    The Chairman: I am afraid that I cannot discuss the constitutional position of the Mace.
    Mr. Gaitskell: This is really a very bewildering situation, Sir Gordon. We have raised what I think most hon. Members who have been in the House of Commons for some time will recognise to be a perfectly legitimate point. It is surely our right to have an answer from the Chair on this point. If you feel that you are unable to give any Ruling on this point, we do not know in effect whether the House was correctly dismissed or suspended a little while ago. That is the point, and it is of some importance. If you, Sir Gordon, feel unable to do this, would it be possible to send for Mr. Speaker and ask him to give a Ruling?
    The Chairman: The House was correctly suspended.
    Mr. Gaitskell: May I take it from that that the position of the Mace is not relevant to whether the House is sitting?
    The Chairman: The position of the Mace is not relevant to that.
    Sir P. Agnew: On a point of order. Without presuming to pronounce upon the constitutional position, which in any case would probably be out of order, has it not been generally observed by those who notice the practice of the House of Commons that the position of the Mace adjusts itself to the position of the Chair, and not the other way round?
    Mr. Brockway: Sir Gordon, may I give you a precedent regarding the Mace? In 1930, a Division took place in the House of Commons on my suspension from the House. When my Tellers came to the Table one of them thought that if he removed the Mace I could not be suspended. He himself was suspended, but on that occasion Mr. Speaker ruled that I could not be suspended from membership of the House until the Mace was returned upon the Table.
    The Chairman: The House was suspended and it has now resumed.
    Mr. G. Brown: It must be apparent to you, Sir Gordon, that in consulting our dignity—and the House of Commons has great dignity extending over many centuries—and in consulting the dignity of the House we cannot legitimately be asked to proceed with a strongly and hotly disputed Bill like this when we are not clear under what constitutional rules we are proceeding.
    May I, therefore, since we cannot agree on exactly what happened, ask leave to move "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again", which will give all hon. Members an opportunity to consult the precedents, to consult each other and to reconsider the position if we are to discuss this matter with a clear understanding.
    The Chairman: I am afraid that I cannot accept that Motion.
    Mr. Marcus Lipton: May I put this to you, Sir Gordon, with respect.

    1481
    My hon. Friends and I below the Gangway are trying to follow what is happening and, for that reason, in order to enable us to he informed of the correct procedure, would it be possible for me to move that we do now proceed from Committee to the House and that you take Mr. Speaker's Chair so that we can then hear what your Rulings are?
    The Chairman: That would not be in order. I hope that we can now get on with the next Amendment.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: May I have your leave, Sir Gordon, to move "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again"?
    The Chairman: I cannot accept that Motion.
    Mr. Fletcher: On that point, Sir Gordon, surely the whole House would agree that it would not be very satisfactory for us to proceed in this way until we are clear about what really happened when the House was suspended. I am sure that in the interests of the whole House, and the future of the House, one point should be made clear. My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) and others of my hon. Friends have said that we are quite clearly under the impression—and I do not think it has been disputed, for the Leader of the House would no doubt have disputed it if it were not the case—that when the House was suspended the Mace was below the table. That is a matter of fact.
    It is quite easy for anyone to make a mistake in the circumstances then prevailing, and it may well be that you thought, Sir Gordon, that the Mace was on the Table. Surely, for the purposes of the record, we should have it clearly established—just as it was in the case of my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Mr. Brockway) in 1930—that the House cannot function unless the Mace is on the Table. Sir Gordon, whether you are or are not actually sitting in Mr. Speaker's Chair, you have no authority to treat the House as being in session for any purposes, least of all, I would suggest, to suspend it, unless the Mace is actually on the Table.
    You did, in fact, purport to suspend the proceedings of the House and, in fact, there were no proceedings in the House for 30 minutes. It seems to me—and I think that the Leader of the
    1482
    House and hon. Members on the Government Benches will agree—that the point which my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper raised is one of great constitutional importance. We have always proceeded in this House on the assumption that when the House is sitting as a House the Mace must be on the Table, and that when the Mace is below the Table we are sitting in Committee. During the interval which elapses to enable the Serjeant at Arms to move the Mace there is a kind of hiatus in a sort of no man's land during which time no steps can be effectively taken.
    Important as this Bill—the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill—may be, I suggest with great respect, Sir Gordon, that this is a matter of great constitutional importance which will affect the whole of our proceedings. It is something which should be clarified, and it can be clarified effectively only in the House as a whole. I would, with great respect, suggest that you allow us to move to report Progress so that we can then clear up this matter of grave constitutional importance. I am sure that it is a matter on which we should wish to hear the Leader of the House.
    Mr. Edward Short: On a point of order, Sir Gordon. During the previous part of the sitting I was seated on the second bench below the Gangway. I was, therefore, in a position to see clearly what happened. You had gone into the Speaker's Chair, Sir Gordon, and suspended the sitting before the Serjeant at Arms even reached the Table. I suggest to you that in those circumstances the sitting was not validly suspended.
    The effect of that, I suggest, is this. You had left the Chair in Committee, the House had not been suspended, and, therefore, at this moment neither the House nor the Committee is sitting. Therefore, any business that we transact from now on will not be valid.
    Mr. G. Brown: May I draw your attention, Sir Gordon, to Erskine May at page 248, where reference is made to the office of Mr. Speaker as the presiding officer of the House. It says:
    "The symbol of his authority is the Royal Mace which is borne before him when entering and leaving the chamber … and is placed upon the table when he is in the chair."

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    It is our submission to you, Sir Gordon, that you acted for Mr. Speaker in suspending the House at a time when the Royal Mace, the only symbol of your authority, had not been placed on the Table nor borne before you, nor, so far as the House knew, was in the precincts at all. Therefore, you acted then with no symbol of authority, with no evidence of your right to do so.
    Therefore, I again submit to you, Sir Gordon, that in those circumstances, following Erskine May as we do in these matters, it must be clear that you suspended the House when the House was not in session. Therefore, we could not have been called back and we could not have gone again into Committee. For the purpose of any further consideration this night of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill in Committee we are technically not here. I submit to you that were we to proceed, anything that is purported to be done this night will be the subject of great conflict and contest about its legality. We are presuming to make laws applicable to members of the Commonwealth throughout the world, all of whom will have recourse to legal action to test their legality.
    I therefore submit to you, Sir Gordo ii, with sincerity and with respect that in view of the fact that nobody disputes that the Mace was not on the Table, it would really be much wiser for you to accept a Motion or for the Leader of the House to move a Motion, in whatever is the appropriate form, that we now cease business tonight. There will be plenty of time for consultation to take place in order to clear the matter up. But to try to proceed as though nothing irregular and unconstitutional, or at any rate of great dubiety, had happened is to put ourselves all in great mischief for the future. I hope, therefore, that, on reflection, you will be willing to accept a Motion to report Progress and to ask leave to sit again.
    The Chairman: I think that the right hon. Gentleman's fears are quite unfounded. I cannot accept that Motion.
    8.45 p.m.
    Mr. John Hall: Further to that point of order, Sir Gordon. Would you explain to the Committee how it is possible for right hon. and
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    hon. Members to raise points of order when, according to the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), the Committee does not exist at all?
    Mr. R. T. Paget: On a point of order, Sir Gordon. My point of order is different from the point which has been discussed so far. The question so far has been the question whether the House was reconstituted according to the position of the Mace.
    As I understand it, when a Committee is suspended it can reassemble only if it has the leave of the House to do so. The Motion for a Committee to suspend is a Motion that the Committee be suspended, and leave is sought to sit again. On this occasion, the Committee was suspended without leave to sit again being obtained. No leave has been granted for us to sit again, so we have no right to sit here as a Committee. When Mr. Speaker left the Chair, the House was suspended, but as there was no leave granted to the Committee to sit again, we have no right to sit here as a Committee now. The House and the Committee are suspended.
    The Chairman: The Committee was suspended when I left the Chair. It does not require leave to sit again. I left the Chair to report to Mr. Speaker. That is a course of action which I took.
    Mr. F. P. Crowder: On a point of order, Sir Gordon. In order to save time, could not our proceedings be suspended for five minutes, in accordance with everyone's wishes and agreement, and then could we not get on with our business thereafter? I suggest, Sir Gordon, that that will solve the problem.
    Mr. Ernest Popplewell: On a point of order, Sir Gordon. A little while ago, you yourself raised a very important constitutional point. You said that we could not discuss the constitutional position of the Mace. By that very remark, you indicated that a very serious situation had arisen affecting the normal conduct of our business in the House. Erskine May clearly lays down that the constitutional form governing how we conduct our debates in the House is indicated by the position of

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    the Mace, and you yourself very clearly referred to that constitutional point.
    I submit, with respect, that in a moment of difficulty, perhaps understandable in the heat of what was taking place at the time, you make a mistake in taking the Chair of the House and suspending the sitting before the Mace was placed on the Table. You now refuse to take any further action even though you admit that there is a constitutional question affecting the business of the House.
    In view of this, Sir Gordon, will you not accept the Motion to report Progress in order that we may have the matter clarified? If your Ruling remains as it is now, that the Chair can do as it likes irrespective of the Mace, it will change the procedure of the House of Commons which, to say the least, has stood the test of time for many years. Until the position is cleared up, can we observe the traditions of the House? As you, Sir Gordon, have indicated, there is a constitutional question here in what is taking place, which brings the whole conduct of the business of this House into gross disrepute and makes an important change in our Parliamentary procedure. I suggest that what is taking place is not in the best interests of debate in this Chamber.
    The Chairman: It is not a question of disrepute. The House was suspended because of disorder.
    Sir Robert Grimston: I am rather jealous of the dignity of the House. Of course, it is open to the Opposition to make all that they can of this incident, but I think there is something in it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] We are, I think rightly, very jealous of the proprieties, our rules of order and, indeed, of our ceremony. It is all part of the make-up of Parliament.
    I was not in the House at the time, but it seems to be generally agreed that at the time that you, Sir Gordon, went into Mr. Speaker's Chair and adjourned the House, the Mace was not in its proper position. That may be to some people a very small thing, but it is part of the whole make-up of Parliament. I think that we ought to get out of this position. If you, Sir Gordon, made a mistake and acknowledged it, I think
    1486
    that the House would be very ready to understand that. Quite frankly, I should like the position established as to what part the Mace plays in our procedure. It is not very clear at the moment.
    I would, therefore, make this suggestion, with great respect, that you suspend again and ask Mr. Speaker to come back and give us his Ruling. We can then get on with our business. I think that that would be for the greater dignity of the House.
    Mr. Gaitskell: May I warmly support what the hon. Baronet the Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston) has said? We must get out of the tangle that we have got into. I think that all of us appreciate that the Bill which was under consideration is of very great importance. We certainly do not want proceedings on it to be treated in any way with levity or in a manner which suggests that we are indifferent to it and more concerned with points of order, and so on. But, as the hon. Baronet said, we are in difficulty and I feel that the course he has proposed is the best way out of the situation. I very much hope that you, Sir Gordon, will follow it.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Sir Gordon, I should like to state my own position. I was watching you and listening to the words that you spoke. I have no doubt at all that the recollection of hon. Members concerning the Mace is right. I am not questioning that. I am merely saying that I myself did not see the position at the time, but I accept what right hon. and hon. Members have said.
    May I follow what my hon. Friend the Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston) and the Leader of the Opposition have said. If it be true for various reasons—perhaps because a mistake was made at the exact moment at which you spoke your words, Sir Gordon—and if we have to find a way out of this difficulty, would you think it right—I am sure that if you did you would have the support of the whole House—to suspend the sitting until the position can be cleared up?
    The Chairman: If the Leader of the House moves to report Progress, I will, of course, accept that.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: May I ask leave to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again"?

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    From what you have said, Sir Gordon, I understand that such a Motion is now in order. If it is in order for the Leader of the House to move such a Motion, it is surely in order for any other Member of the House to do so.
    Mr. G. Brown: The Chairman said that he would accept it.
    The Chairman: Such a Motion has not been moved. Does the right hon. Gentleman wish to move it?
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Sir Gordon, I am only asking leave to move the Motion. I have not moved it at all, because you denied me leave. I heard you say that if the Leader of the House were prepared to move the Motion, you would accept it and allow him to develop it. I had not moved the Motion. I have said once or twice that I should like to do so, but that is different. I have not been allowed to do it. If the Leader of the House could do it and it would be in order, surely what I am trying to do, which is exactly the same thing, is in order.
    Hon. Members: Move the Motion.
    The Chairman: I will accept the Motion if the right hon. Gentleman will move, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again."
    Mr. Gordon Walker: I will do that, Sir Gordon. With the leave of the Committee, I beg to move,
    That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
    I will speak to this Motion very briefly, and I will do it in the spirit of the last few contributions. Sir Gordon, we are really trying to do this to help you to help us. There would be some doubt about the exact status of our proceedings if we went on with the Bill—the proceedings that we should take from this moment—because, clearly, there is doubt about what would be their validity. It would be very wrong for us to continue in the knowledge that our proceedings might be called in question by the House when it meets tomorrow, that the things that we are purporting to legislate about might not be valid. In order that we might carry out in the only way open to us the very wise suggestion of the hon. Baronet the Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston),
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    I move this Motion so that we can get out of the difficulty that all of us want to get out of.
    The Chairman: The Question is, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again."
    Mr. Denis Howell Mr. Denis Howell rose—
    Hon. Members: Off-side. Send him off.
    Mr. Howell: I am used to being booed and heckled, and so I shall not be put off now. In my view, the Motion is debatable. While I respect very much the intentions of my hon. Friends to debate the specific incident of the Mace, which I acknowledge to be of great constitutional importance, this is the first opportunity that some of us have had to draw attention to the fact that there are two other matters of equal gravity and importance. One is the conduct of the Patronage Secretary, who, quite clearly, before the suspension of the House discussed the question with the Clerk, who then, Sir Gordon, discussed the matter with you. Indeed, at that precise moment there were objections from all my hon. Friends about what was happening. This is equally a matter of considerable importance.
    Then there is the further point, the main point, the point on which it all started, which transcends in importance, constitutionally, to the Commonwealth all the other points, and that is whether we are to debate each Dominion in the Commonwealth and have a vote on each separately. This is a matter of paramount importance. The Motion which you have now accepted from my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) gives some of us our first opportunity to raise that subject and debate it.
    There are three matters before the Committee which are all of great constitutional importance and they ought not to be brushed aside, and it is because of that that I have exercised my right, even at the displeasure of some people, to raise them now.
    Sir Charles Taylor Sir Charles Taylor (Eastbourne) rose in his place, and claimed to move, That the Question be now put; but The CHAIRMAN withheld his assent and declined then to put that Question.
    9.0 p.m.
    Mr. S. Silverman: I think that my right hon. and hon. Friends will agree with me in saying that all this procedure of the last hour and a half or two hours would not have taken place if the Government had not been so ill advised as to move the Closure at the time when we were last discussing an Amendment of substance before the Committee. I hope that the Leader of the House will take warning from what has happened, and will be far more discreet in future in curtailing discussion on a Bill which everybody on both sides of the Committee regards as being of as grave an importance as we have had to deal with in many years.
    Having said that, I should like to suggest, with the greatest possible respect and diffidence, that the Committee should not accept the Motion which my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) has moved. I think it would best suit the convenience and the dignity of the Committee if we were now, in some sort of way, able to resume discussion of a serious kind on matters on which deep feelings are held on both sides of the Committee.
    I do not know whether, if my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) is right in the submission which he made to you, Sir Gordon, a little while ago, we can properly discuss the Motion which my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick moved. If my right hon. Friend is right in his submission that the Committee is not, in fact, in session at all, by reason of what was wrongly done before, there can be no Motion in front of it, and we have not resolved the dilemma to which the hon. Baronet drew our attention. It seems to me that there is an easier way out of that dilemma. [An HON. MEMBER: "A General Election."] I assume that my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper was right in saying that the position of the Mace invalidated the suspension of the sitting, and the only logical conclusion from that fact is that the sitting was never suspended. If the sitting was never suspended, the Committee was never suspended, either, and therefore the Committee is still in session as if the suspension of the House had never taken place. That seems to me to be the plain logic of the situation,
    1490
    on the assumption that my right hon. Friend was right. If, on the other hand, he was wrong, then the House was properly suspended, and was properly resumed. I think it would be very much better, now that the Government have learned their lesson about premature Motions for the Closure, that we should resume our discussion and get on with the Bill.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: I am not concerned with the submissions that have been made to you, Sir Gordon, because they are secondary to the fundamental issue which caused this conflict between the Chair and the Committee. Therefore, I support the Motion which my right hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) has moved, and I want to ask you, Sir Gordon, if you will be good enough to raise with Mr. Speaker—[Interruption.] I thought there was only one Chairman in the Committee. The point I was making was that the Committee has not been informed of Mr. Speaker's opinion with regard to the conflict which has arisen between the Chair and the Committee.
    I have sat, like some of my hon. Friends, all through the proceedings. We are, therefore, well informed and well armed to deal with the matters which gave rise to the conflict. We have proved by our record as Members of this House that we respect the Chair. We have come through very many conflicts, and this has not arisen before, except on one unfortunate occasion, for which we can be forgiven, because we were all involved in all-night proceedings. This time we are all fresh.
    We are making progress. It is nice after the experience we have had in the past two hours to see you, Sir Gordon, smile like that. We are making progress if we can bring about this sort of atmosphere. Several appeals have been made for support for proposals to resolve this difficulty. We, to assert our rights as private Members, as members of our party and as elected Members of Parliament, are bound to ask the Chair what is now the position in relation to what created this conflict.
    We all know from past experience that the Chair has had the right to select Amendments and that we are not entitled to challenge the decision because the Chair has all the advice that

    1491
    the Table gives it. In the Committee we loyally accepted that position and there was no quibbling worth talking about. When the Chair ruled several of my hon. Friends out of order, they immediately accepted that and proceeded to make their speeches. [Laughter.] Oh yes, I happen to know Shakespeare. He who laughs last, laughs best. They made their speeches because they accepted the Chair's decision on the assumption that we should have the right to carry out the normal Parliamentary practice of voting on each Amendment.
    Surely that is good reasoning. If so, do not let us differ with one another and have incidents—because there will be incidents, as we are all so sure that we are right. We are being put to the test whether we are real men or not—and some of us have not been trained to talk in circles before we became Members of Parliament. Throughout our lives we have been fighting for working-class rights and we intend to go on fighting. Having studied the Standing Orders and Erskine May, we intend to go on doing that as long as we are elected by our fellow-countrymen to come here. That is not intended for the Chair at all.
    I want to ask you, Sir Gordon, whether you will be good enough to consider our reasoning, in view of the fact that we have put our points of view in a reasonable manner. I ask that we should be allowed to vote on what my hon. Friends now want to vote on.
    Mr. R. A. Butler Mr. R. A. Butler rose—
    Hon. Members: Who is the Leader of the House?
    Mr. Butler: I was moved to intervene by the words of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. It would really be most unfortunate, both in this country and overseas, if we were to appear to suspend consideration of a Bill of this importance. I will come back to that point, but I would add to it another consideration, that I think there are doubts and anxieties which are of a constitutional character. I am not able to assess their value myself tonight, but they are of a constitutional character. and want resolving.
    I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston) and
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    with the words of the Leader of the Opposition and others who have intervened in this way. We should find it very difficult to accept the Motion moved by the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker) because that would mean that we should not be able to make further progress with the Bill tonight. I think that some further progress, a reasonable progress tonight—and we shall not be unreasonable—would be as constitutional as it would be to investigate what the solution is. If we accept the Motion we cannot go back to the Bill at all tonight, and that would be a pity.
    As one who has spent the greater part of his life as a Member of Parliament, I was rather keen on a Motion like this to come, because I thought that it would be the solution of our difficulties. We have been much aided by the good humour of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith). Whenever he intervenes to address the House, he gets us back to the right atmosphere. We should all regret it if this sitting ended in anything like what the hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Driberg) and other hon. Members referred to as grave disorder. I do not myself, in my sense of the situation, see that there is grave disorder about, but I think there is a feeling on the part of the Opposition that they are not at all sorry that a little time has been taken up. [Interruption.] But they are also worried about the constitutional issue which is before us.
    I suggest that the right hon. Member for Smethwick should be good enough to withdraw his Motion on the understanding that Mr. Speaker gives a Ruling tomorrow—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—or at his early convenience, on the issues before us. If anybody else can suggest a better arrangement, let us accept it. But we should get this matter ruled upon by the Chair. If that is done, the matter can be resolved properly, we can then revert to a modest consideration of at least one further Amendment, or more, and we shall be enabled to make progress and preserve our dignity. It is because I want to preserve our dignity, and, at the same time, examine what has gone wrong, that I make this proposal.
    Mr. Gaitskell: The Home Secretary has indicated that he agrees that there

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    is grave constitutional doubt about the events of the last hour and a half, and that there may be serious trouble if it is discovered that the suspension of the House was not in order. He also asked how we could find some way out of this. He himself has given the answer. He supported, as did the Leader of the House and as I did, the proposal of the hon. Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston) that you, Sir Gordon, should suspend the Committee or the House in the appropriate way. Having done so we could no doubt get back into it again and carry on our proceedings. That would remove the element of doubt which is the real trouble in the present situation.
    Of course, as my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) has said, if the Opposition are right, then the Committee has never been suspended. There is this element of doubt which might make our proceedings later on tonight out of order. Obviously the Government do not want that to happen.
    Therefore, merely to carry on, with the possibility that everything we say and do would be meaningless, would be most unsatisfactory. Of course, we understand that the Government do not want to adjourn completely tonight, and they can stop us from doing so. Equally, they do not want everything to be out of order. The sensible course to pursue is the course suggested by the hon. Member for Westbury, by the Leader of the House, by the Home Secretary and by myself as Leader of the Opposition. Surely this is the right thing to do?
    The Chairman: A sitting can only be suspended because of grave disorder.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: The Home Secretary asked me if I would withdraw my Motion, but I find myself in difficulty because, as you, Sir Gordon, have indicated, it is not possible to do what the hon. Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston) wanted because the Committee can only be suspended, as I understand, because of grave disorder—and we are not being invited to commit grave disorder.
    9.15 p.m.
    The right hon. Gentleman has admitted that we have to find a way out of this. Unfortunately, suspension is not the way out. I do not think that
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    his proposal is the way out, because Mr. Speaker may rule that all our proceedings were invalid. It would be foolhardy now to embark on this, with the risk that everything we do may, by a subsequent Ruling of Mr. Speaker, be rendered retrospectively invalid. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman cannot have intended to ask us to do that. Therefore, the only way out of a position which almost every hon. Member agrees we must get out of is for me not to withdraw the Motion but for the Committee to carry it.
    Mr. Peter Tapsell: The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) has openly boasted that all our present troubles derive horn the fact that the Closure was moved earlier. Having sat here throughout these proceedings, I agree with the hon. Gentleman.
    I have been in the House for only a short time, but I understand that the Closure is one of our recognised procedures. Is it not a disgraceful reflection on Her Majesty's Opposition—[HON. MEMBERS: "0h."] The Opposition are very fond of shouting people down, but they are not going to shout me down. Is it not a disgraceful reflection on the Opposition that when they dislike a Motion which has been properly put and accepted by the Chair they promptly turn on the Chair? Is not this precisely what happened during the debates on the National Health Service Bill earlier this year? Will not the country regard as being extremely unsporting an Opposition who, when they dislike the rules, turn on the referee?
    Mr. Ede: I understand that the suggestion is that Mr. Speaker should be asked to give a Ruling about something which has happened during the sittings of a Committee of the whole House. Let us be quite certain of this. Historically we sit in Committee of the whole House so that we shall be protected from the Rulings of Mr. Speaker. This goes back to the time before Mr. Speaker Lenthall's retort to His Majesty Charles I. Prior to that Mr. Speaker was too often regarded as being the conveyor of messages from the Crown to the House to tell it what to do, as was evidenced on the occasion a few years before the visit of King Charles I when

    1495
    Denzil Holies held Mr. Speaker in the Chair to insist on him sitting after the King had sent Mr. Speaker instructions to adjourn the House.
    One has heard from time to time various Speakers say, "I know nothing about what goes on in Committee".
    Mr. E. Shinwell: Except in the case of grave disorder.
    Mr. Ede: I have every respect for my right hon. Friend, but I do not want to go beyond what I believe to be historically ascertained precedents.
    I am as anxious as any other hon. Member to see the Committee get out of a difficult position, but I am certain that with regard to what happens in Committee, unless a Motion is put on the Order Paper challenging the decision of the person occupying the Chair at the time, the Committee will sooner or later have to settle the difficulties which have arisen today.
    I regret having to say that I think the Opposition were treated with grave discourtesy by the Minister in charge of the Bill. My right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) asked some very pertinent questions with regard to the statistics on which these debates had been conducted. It was quite evident that it caused some perturbation on the Government Front Bench, because the Minister of State immediately went to the Official Box, and papers were handed to him. He discussed them with the officials in the presence of the whole Committee. If he had been instructed by the Minister in charge of the Bill that it was his duty to do that. I am making no complaint about it.
    He then came back. The Minister of Labour as well as the Minister in charge of the Bill were then on the Front Bench, and they considered these papers. Then the Parliamentary Private Secretary was dispatched to the Official Box and he had a discussion there. Then the Home Secretary went to the Official Box. Those of us who were here at the time know that I am merely reciting history. The Home Secretary went out through those doors and came back shortly afterwards, and then threw a note across the Table to my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North.
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    My right hon. Friend showed it to me. It started off by saying, "I am not going to discuss the statistics on this Amendment." I gathered that to be an intimation that there would be some discussion of the statistics at a later date. I saw the document for only a minute, but I think that I have conveyed its gist quite accurately to the Committee.
    If the Home Secretary was anxious to get a decision from the Committee, I suggest that the courteous thing for him to have done—and I say this as an ex-Leader of the House—was to put at the bottom of the note, "Do not you think it is about time that we moved on to the next Amendment?" Instead of that, when the hon. Member then addressing the Committee sat down one of the subordinate Whips jumped up and moved the Closure. That has been the cause of the trouble today. I am very sorry, Sir Gordon, that you have been involved in something that did not really originate from any action of yours.
    I therefore suggest that the proper thing would be to accept the position that we were in after the hon. Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston) spoke, and that my right hon. Friend's Motion to report Progress should be put and carried. It is true that that will involve the Government in some loss of time. They will be more sorry for that than I shall. I also suggest that between now and the next sitting of the House, or between now and the beginning of next week consultation should take place about the difficulties that arose over the Mace, but I hope that any Ruling as to what happened to the Mace on this occasion, and its effect on the proceedings of the House while we were in Committee, will be a matter for the Committee and not for a Ruling by Mr. Speaker.
    The Chairman: I am in agreement with the right hon. Gentleman. The position is that proceedings in Committee are matters for the Committee and not for Mr. Speaker, but any question about the Mace when I was in Mr. Speaker's Chair is a question which comes within the province of Mr. Speaker.
    Mr. Hugh Delargy: I am puzzled, as I am sure are many hon. Members, by the behaviour of the

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    Leader of the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Which one?"] I mean the official Leader of the House, and I am saying this in all respect. A short time ago he confessed that he was in doubt about our constitutional position at the moment. He accepted the general view that the Mace was not in its proper place. So gravely in doubt was the right hon. Gentleman that he suggested to you, Sir Gordon, that you again suspend the sitting so that we could resolve our difficulties. Apparently you cannot do that because the resolve is not great enough at the moment.
    If, therefore, the Leader of the House is still in doubt about our position. surely he must accept this Motion and vote for it. Otherwise, whatever we do for the rest of the night, whether it turns out to be right or wrong in the end, is something about which the right hon. Gentleman himself will be in doubt and will continue to be in doubt all night if this Motion is not carried. So I think that the whole Committee would be grateful to the right hon. Gentleman if he made his position clear.
    Mr. G. Brown: I rise to make an appeal to the Government on this Motion. If this Motion were now to be accepted, the Government would not lose anything that is final or really very harsh for them. We should go away half an hour before the end of the normal Parliamentary day. The admitted dubiety about part of our proceedings could then be cleared up tomorrow in a dignified and respectful way. The House, or the Committee, could then return to its labours on the Bill without the rest of the proceedings being subject to doubt or subject, as inevitably it otherwise would be, to a good deal of tension and high feeling.
    I submit to the Leader of the House, if he is to answer, or to the Howe Secretary, that it really would be in accord with the feelings of all hon. Members if we were to bring this to a dignified and an orderly end now. Clearly, it cannot be brought to an end in any other way than by accepting the Motion. I listened carefully to the Home Secretary when he suggested that somehow we should find a way of carrying on, subject to what Mr. Speaker might rule tomorrow. But I suggest that upon reflection the Home Secretary will not
    1498
    feel that that would be a dignified way for the House to go on. It is tantamount to saying, "Let us go on for hours, and purport to have a debate and take decisions and then, maybe, tomorrow afternoon we shall find that they are all ruled out of order."
    I do not think that anybody would suggest that a sovereign Parliament should behave in that way. It might be all right for a debating society but not, I suggest, for the House of Commons. The point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) was dealt with by your predecessor in the Chair, Sir William, when he pointed out that the issue is not whether we were a properly constituted Committee when the Committee was abruptly brought to an end. The issue is whether any of the subsequent proceedings in the House were in order on the ground of whether we were at that time properly constituted as a House.
    I submit that on every ground the right thing to do now is to accept that we have got into a tangle. We need not go over the question again of who is to blame and how it arose. We know it arose. One of the good things about this debate—despite some of the speeches which have been made—is that nobody has challenged the recollection of those of us who were here at the time when we went back into the House. There is no dispute about the facts. There is grave dubiety about the constitutional position as the result of those admitted facts. That being so, I should have thought that there is everything to be said, for the sake of this Bill and for the future of the House, that we should bring this to an end in an orderly and dignified manner.
    I therefore say to the Home Secretary that since there is no way of suspending, short of going into grave disorder—and that we have not done and there is no point in doing so—and since we cannot do it in that way, he recognises that the only possible way out is to accept the Motion moved by my right hon. Friend.
    9.30 p.m.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I willingly respond to the speech of the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown). When I made my suggestion I was aware of the point made by the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) that Mr. Speaker does not know what happens in

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    Committee, but I was also aware, Sir William, of what your predecessor in the Chair said, namely, that when the Chairman was acting as Mr. Deputy-Speaker and the Mace was in question the matter was one for Mr. Speaker. That is why I suggested that the ruling might be one for Mr. Speaker, which, in my opinion, might be the right solution.
    The Leader of the Opposition pointed out a valid constitutional fact which I cannot counter, that if my suggestion were adopted there might be doubt about the validity of our proceedings. I have to accept that, and I ask my right hon. Friends, hon. Friends, and the House generally to accept that as a fact. I think that the matter will be cleared up by the Ruling from the Chair. But if there is dubiety, then the whole question of the dignity of the House arises.
    In the circumstances, I think that I must revise what I said to the Committee, not in respect of the constitutional position or the procedure of the House, in which I was not wrong, but on the subject of dubiety on which I was not correct arising in the later proceedings. I think that we have to accept that as a stark fact—and the Government have to accept it whether they like it or not—because, if we have dubiety about our proceedings, progress on the Bill will not be accelerated.
    I am, therefore, in a position to say that I consider that there is no other constitutional development which we can follow in view of the dubiety which has been acknowledged by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House than to accept the Motion of the right hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Gordon Walker). I do not want to say very much more, because I have acknowledged exactly the position in which we find ourselves about this constitutional dubiety, but I must say that it is the Government's intention to get this important Bill.
    The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition has referred to the point. I cannot accept that it is the Government's fault that we have not made greater progress. The fault does not lie on this side of the Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I can-
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    not accept the position as stated by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Government will have to review the position of the Bill and its future. All I can say tonight is that I will accept, in the spirit put by the right hon. Member for Belper and by the Leader of the Opposition, the fact that we should be right constitutionally to accept the Motion.
    Mr. G. Brown: If I may, I should like to express our thanks to the Home Secretary for the way in which he has responded to the point which we put to him? As to his complaint that as an Opposition we have been criticising and exercising our Opposition functions too strongly, I imagine that there has never been a Government all through the ages which did not feel the same about any Opposition; and no doubt it will go on like that whichever party occupies the Government benches. I thank the right hon. Gentleman very much.
    Mr. George Wigg: I will not keep the House for more than a minute, but I must strike a slightly cynical note. The fact that the Home Secretary has been kind enough to be generous to the Committee, I suggest, is for one reason, and one reason only. I hope that I am not being too cynical when I say that I am sure that before many hours are over there will be a time-table Motion on the Order Paper providing for a Guillotine. In other words, the right hon. Gentleman has given us exactly nothing.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

    Mr. Michael Hamilton discharged from the Estimates Committee; Mr. A. E. Cooper added.—[Mr. E. Wakefield.]

    ADJOURNMENT
    Resolved, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Hughes-Young.]
    Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes to Ten o'clock.

EMPLOYMENT
  Industrial Health Schemes (Nuffield Foundation Fund)
  Industrial Health Schemes (Nuffield Foundation Fund)
  Government Training Centres
  Government Training Centres
  Industrial Health Advisory Committee
  Industrial Health Advisory Committee
  Equal Pay
  Equal Pay
  Wage Awards
  Wage Awards
  Aircraft Factory, Christchurch (Closure)
  Aircraft Factory, Christchurch (Closure)
  Shop and Office Workers (Health and Safety)
  Shop and Office Workers (Health and Safety)
  School Leavers, South-West Durham
  School Leavers, South-West Durham
ROYAL NAVY
  Headquarters Staff
  Headquarters Staff
  Nuclear-Fuelled Surface Ships
  Nuclear-Fuelled Surface Ships
  Assault Ship (Contract)
  Assault Ship (Contract)
  Nuclear Submarine (Polaris Missiles)
  Nuclear Submarine (Polaris Missiles)
  Chatham Dockyard (Modernisation and Re-equipment)
  Chatham Dockyard (Modernisation and Re-equipment)
  Shipbuilding, Northern Ireland
  Shipbuilding, Northern Ireland
BRITISH ARMY
  National Service Men
  National Service Men
SCOTLAND
  House Purchase (Reid Committee's Report)
  House Purchase (Reid Committee's Report)
  Toothill Committee (Evidence)
  Toothill Committee (Evidence)
  Road Programme
  Road Programme
  Economic and Industrial Adviser
  Economic and Industrial Adviser
  Advisory Council on Education (Report)
  Advisory Council on Education (Report)
ROADS
  M.5 (Avonmouth Extension)
  M.5 (Avonmouth Extension)
  Rumney Hill, Cardiff
  Rumney Hill, Cardiff
  Doncaster By-Pass (Hard Shoulders)
  Doncaster By-Pass (Hard Shoulders)
  Hendon Motorway
  Hendon Motorway
  Central London—London Airport
  Central London—London Airport
TRANSPORT
  Traffic Engineers
  Traffic Engineers
  Motor and Motor Cycle Rallies
  Motor and Motor Cycle Rallies
  Speed Limits
  Speed Limits
  Road Accidents, Birmingham
  Road Accidents, Birmingham
  Oxford Street (Traffic Diversion)
  Oxford Street (Traffic Diversion)
  Bus Services, Highlands and Islands (Report)
  Bus Services, Highlands and Islands (Report)
SHIPPING
  River Humber (Hovercraft)
  River Humber (Hovercraft)
  Channel (Dam)
  Channel (Dam)
  "Queen Mary" (Replacement)
  "Queen Mary" (Replacement)
RAILWAYS
  Kentish Town-Barking Line
  Kentish Town-Barking Line
  COUNCIL OF EUROPE RECOM MENDATION (HANDICAPPED REFUGEES)
  COUNCIL OF EUROPE RECOM MENDATION (HANDICAPPED REFUGEES)
  UNITED NATIONS(Dr. O'BRIEN)
  UNITED NATIONS(Dr. O'BRIEN)
  FOREIGN SERVICE
  FOREIGN SERVICE
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Decimal System (Copper Coins)
  Decimal System (Copper Coins)
POST OFFICE
  Decimal System (Stamps)
  Decimal System (Stamps)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Racing Cars (Purchase Tax)
  Racing Cars (Purchase Tax)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of St. Albans

EARL WINTERTON
2.34 p.m.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Winterton has asked me to apologise to the House for not being here to-day. He has had a slight accident. He does not wish to have his Questions asked to-day, but he will be putting them down for another day next week.

COMMONWEALTH AND THE COMMON MARKET
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Governments of Australia, Canada and New Zealand have expressed a wish that a Commonwealth Ministerial Conference should be held before Britain commits herself to joining the European Common Market and, further, whether such a wish has been expressed by any other Commonwealth Government.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, public statements made on behalf of the Canadian Government indicate that that Government is of the view that a Commonwealth Ministerial meeting should be held before there is any final commitment. The Australian Prime Minister for his part has said publicly that he expects that a meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers will take place before that stage. I am not aware of any similar statement on the part of other Commonwealth governments.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are now willing to give Commonwealth Governments an assurance that a Commonwealth Ministerial Conference will be initiated by Her Majesty's Government before Britain enters into any commitments to join the European Common Market.]
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, in the resolution passed on 3rd August your Lordships accepted the Government's undertaking that no agreement affecting the special interests of the Commonwealth would be entered into until it had been approved by Parliament after full consultation with other Commonwealth countries by whatever procedure they might generally agree. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister, speaking in another place on 31st July, said, as wassaid by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary yesterday, that if it were thought desirable to have a meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers before any final decision was put before Parliament, he would welcome such a meeting. Those were very clear statements and I can assure the noble Lord that Her Majesty's Government stand by them.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, arising out of that reply, could the Minister clarify somewhat the statement which was made yesterday by the Foreign Secretary on this subject, when the Foreign Secretary told my noble friend Lord Salisbury that this was a matter which must be discussed with Commonwealth Prime Ministers themselves? Further, may I ask whether we may take it that if a majority of Commonwealth Prime Ministers wished for such a Conference, Her Majesty's Government would concur with the views of the majority?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: Well, my Lords, I think that it would be most unwise for me to make any statement that might interfere with the process of

83
consultation at Prime Minister level about Commonwealth consultation. I feel that it would be far better to leave this question to the Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth to settle for themselves.

FIGHTING IN KATANGA
2.37 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, I beg to ask the following Question of which he has given Private Notice, namely:
Whether Her Majesty's Government have any information from our Consul at Elisabethville about the fighting in Katanga, and whether they have received any information about the safety of United Kingdom citizens in Katanga.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, I am giving the noble Lord and the House the information that I have at my disposal. Her Majesty's Consul at Elisabethville has described the events which led up to the fighting which broke out yesterday. In the light of the Katangan undertaking, which was repeated to Her Majesty's Consul by Mr. Kimba, to withdraw road blocks between the United Nations Headquarters and the airfield, the United Nations commenced withdrawal of their troops from the neighbourhood of these road blocks. The road blocks had not, however, been removed by the morning of December 5. When Her Majesty's Consul and his United States colleague saw Mr. Kimba at 9.30 a.m. yesterday, Mr. Kimba said that they had not been able to withdraw their troops, because he alleged that United Nations troops had opened fire on them and had established road blocks of their own.
An immediate attempt was made to establish personal contact between Mr. Kimba and the United Nations, but this was unsuccessful. Mr. Urquhart did, however, speak to Mr. Kimba by telephone, but about mid-day the United Nations decided that they could no longer delay taking military action to restore their communications. United Nations troops then infiltrated round the road blocks. Small arms and mortar
84
fire then broke out. This appears to have been the first substantial action which took place. A suggestion by the United States Consul that the area of the main road in the neighbourhood of the road blocks should be demilitarised was overtaken by United Nations action to secure control. Subsequently Her Majesty's Consul reports that the Katangan forces opened fire on United Nations Headquarters.
This morning Her Majesty's Consul has reported that all was quiet until about 11.30 when fighting again broke out in the area of United Nations Headquarters. Since then I have received no further details from our representatives in the Congo. I have had no reports of injury to British subjects. Her Majesty's Consul has been given discretion to arrange their departure from Elisabethville if he thinks this necessary.
I greatly hope that it may be possible for the United Nations to re-establish direct contact with the Provincial Government of the Katanga in order that the fighting may be brought to an end and that the Acting Secretary-General of the United Nations will use all his efforts to achieve a solution by conciliation.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Earl for that statement. Obviously, the position is so confused and fluid at the moment that no useful purpose could be served by pursuing the matter at this stage, but I hope we may be able to put down a similar Question to-morrow. The noble Earl may be able to make a statement then, and the position may have been clarified. I would only express the hope that we are wholeheartedly behind the United Nations in endeavouring to bring about peaceful conditions in that area.
LORD REA: My Lords, I should like to support what the noble Lord has said. May I ask the Foreign Secretary whether he could possibly elucidate a little more one sentence which is not quite clear to me? He said, about half way through,
"A suggestion by the United States Consul that the area of the main road in the neighbourhood of the road blocks should be demilitarised was overtaken by United Nations action to secure control."
I do not ask the question in any spirit of criticism. Perhaps he could explain it a little.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I think it means really what it says—that the United States Consul made a suggestion that all troops should be taken away from that area, but that before that suggestion could be really considered or put into effect, fighting broke out; therefore this kind of solution could not be adopted. Certainly I will respond to the request of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, that I should make a statement. I will do so any day this week when I have information to convey, or when the Opposition would like to ask a Question. I must make it clear that if the United Nations are attacked, of course they must defend themselves; and under the Resolution of February 21 of course the United Nations are entitled both to prevent civil war and to maintain order. In that they would have the full support of Her Majesty's Government. But what we want to emphasise is that this general difficulty in the Congo can be stopped, in the long run, only by conciliation and pacification.

COMMONWEALTH CONSULTATION: PERSONAL STATEMENT BY THE EARL OF HOME
2.39 p.m.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, if the House will allow me—the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, is not here—1 should like to make an explanation to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, who is leading the Opposition. Yesterday, during the debate, inspired by a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Walston, I said: what did he think Lord Listowel was doing all the time in Ghana if he had not been making political representations to President Nkrumah? T had, of course, quite forgotten for the moment that Lord Listowel was not High Commissioner—he was Governor-General. In the circumstances, the suggestion I made that he should always have been on Dr. Nkrumah's doorstep making political points was quite improper. I should like to apologise to the noble Earl and to ask for the foregiveness of the House in this respect.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, we had hoped to get in touch with the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, but we have not been able to succeed. The last thing I want to do is to hit a man when he is
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down. We quite understand that this was a mistake which was made on the spur of the moment, and we fully accept that.

SPACE RESEARCH
2.40 p.m.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH rose to draw attention to the possibilities and problems of space research; the benefits to be derived therefrom, and Britain's participation therein in the light of progress in the U.S.S.R. and in relation to the contributions of the U.S.A. and other countries both inside and outside the Commonwealth; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, when I first set down this Motion over fifteen months ago I was not at all happy about this country's contribution to space research. In April last year the Government decided that the economy of the country could not sustain the cost of further development work on the rocket vehicle Blue Streak as a military weapon, although it had an excellent record of static firings of many of its systems. Therefore, except for certain restricted development work at Hatfield, Stevenage and Spadeadam its future was left somewhat in abeyance. Moreover, the excellent range facilities at Woomera in Australia did not look as though they would be fully used, the Black Knight rocket, Skylark and some other smaller military rockets being about the only weapons which were being fired. But there was no rocket vehicle for true space research.
Meanwhile, my Lords, what have the United States and the Soviet Union been doing? Altogether, the Russians and the Americans appear to have carried out some 116 orbital space shots. This figure does not include the flights of Shepard and Grissom, which were non-orbital, and I understand that no unsuccessful Soviet attempts have been disclosed, so there may have been more. It was as long ago as October, 1957, that the Soviet Union successfully sent their first Sputnik into orbit. This was followed by the first American lynching in February 1958. The Americans have launched 51 satellites, 30 of which are still orbiting the earth, and 11 of these are still transmitting signals. We have, of course, launched none. The American

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Vanguard 1, which was launched in March, 1958, is, incidentally, still sending out signals after three and a half years in orbit; in fact, my Lords, it cannot be stopped. This is much longer than anyone expected, but the amount of communications information gained from these satellites is enormous.
However, since I set down this Motion, the most dramatic news came in April this year, when an amazed world learned that Major Yuri Gagarin had orbited the earth once in Vostok I and had landed successfully. This almost incredible achievement was followed in May by the more modest American launching of the reliable Redstone rocket down the Atlantic missile range, with Commander Alan Shepard in a Mercury capsule. The Russians followed up their lead in August with the Vostok II flight in which Major Herman Titov circled the earth seventeen times in 25 hours. In the same month, the United States fired their Liberty Bell 7, this time with Colonel Virgil Grissom at the helm, and, indeed, an American chimpanzee has circled the earth twice, also in a Mercury capsule.
I know that the noble Viscount, the Lord President of the Council, who is also Minister for Science, and who will be replying to the debate this afternoon, is fully aware of the valuable part which space research can play in a balanced scientific effort. I know that he is aware as some others are aware—but there are perhaps not so many in this country who are—that we stand, in his own words: "On the threshold of infinitely exciting discoveries".
It is clear that for some time the Soviet Union has been devoting a very large part of its economic resources to the exploration of space, but it was only after the successful launching of the first Russian Sputnik that the Americans decided to step up their own activities, and, indeed, an immense amount of American money is going into space research. When I visited Cape Canaveral at the end of February this year, before Gagarin's flight, I spent some time in the Mercury control room and also in the block houses adjacent to the launching pads. I was told that the United States had then already spent 600 million dollars in this field, and spending was continuing at the rate of 11 million
88
dollars a month. This rate of expenditure has, I imagine, greatly increased since President Kennedy outlined his four national goals in May of this year.
Perhaps I may be permitted to mention what those goals are: first, to land a man on the moon before the decade is out; secondly, to accelerate development of the Rover nuclear rocket which will perhaps go to the very ends of the solar system itself; thirdly, to accelerate the use of space satellites for worldwide communications; and, fourthly, to develop a satellite system for world-wide weather observation. Altogether the President asked Congress for an additional 7 billion to 9 billion dollars over the next five years.
The Soviet Union and the United States thus appear to set hardly any limit on their exploration of space, and have gone ahead with their moon probes and even the Venus probe, and are now thinking in terms of Mars, Mercury, Jupiter and the astral belt, with the ultimate aim of sending probes near the sun. I might add here that the deep space tracking station at Goldstone. California, has great achievements to its credit. I understand that the radio contact it has established with the planet Venus has proved that this planet is a better radio reflector than the moon. Since it became clear that the U.S.S.R. and the U.S.A. were spending so much on space research it has been obvious that Britain could not opt out of this field altogether. But we have not done so very much yet in comparison with these other two great Powers. On economic grounds, the Government have evidently felt that if we in this country are to make any important contribution at all it will have to he not only in conjunction with the British Commonwealth, and in particular Australia, but also in co-operation with such of our Allies in Europe as may be interested in joining us in launching a European satellite.
In this country, and I think in France and Germany, there seems to be a general feeling that it would be better for us to concentrate our efforts on this specific project which would have certain practical uses, not only in the communications field but also as an aid to navigation—call it "beaconry" if you like—and in weather prediction; a satellite which should also become a very substantial revenue earner. It might also

89
be used to relay vision signals and to make global television a practical possibility. Most experts in this country seem to think that some eight to ten satellites in orbit of medium altitude—say 7,000 to 10,000 miles—kept stationary in relation to one another, would provide an excellent world communications service as well as improved quality and reliability, and would give promise of substantially reduced tariff rates.
I think that most of your Lordships will agree that it is wise of the Government to set a limit upon their endeavours. These, however, at the moment, are certainly restricted. I gather that the Government are so far committed to spending only £500,000 this year on space research, and £1,100,000 in 1962–63. I think this is mainly in support of the Anglo-American satellite research programme. Those figures certainly do not include—and I hope the noble Viscount will correct me if I am wrong —any contribution which Britain may make to the European Space Research Organisation, which is known as E.S.R.O., or to the European Launcher Development Organisation, which is known as E.L.D.O.
I understand the budget expenditure for the launching of a satellite by E.L.D.O., the launcher organisation, will be something of the order of £70 million, to be spread over the next five years. Even if Britain were to be responsible for, say, half this cost, about £35 million, that would mean expenditure at the rate of about £7½ million a year. It would not include the contribution to E.S.R.O., the research organisation, which would, however, be nothing like so large, since there are twelve countries which are members of that organisation and the cost would be spread over them. Of course, I do not suppose that the proportional contributions of each country to E.S.R.O. and E L.D.O. have yet been fixed, but clearly 13ritain would have to take a large share in the financing of both of them.
I feel sure your Lordships will agree that it is essential that what I hope will be a mainly communications project should be co-operative and allied. All the same, I hope there will not be too many members of the "space club"; otherwise, I think the scientific, technical and language problems may become
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excessively complicated. However, I agree that we may benefit by some cross-fertilisation. After all, scientists and engineers of different European origins all work together reasonably satisfactorily in the United States. I feel I should emphasise here the French contribution. In addition to Véronique, which is to be the second stage of this European rocket, France has also a first stage or launcher of her own in the Diamant. She has also important facilities in the Sahara at Colomb Béchar for launching, too. France has thus not lagged behind in space research.
Although it may now be possible—and I hope it will be—as between Governments to form the European Launcher Development Organisation, it would seem to me to be valuable if private enterprise could ultimately also play its part, and if perhaps a proportion of the funds required from this country were to be raised, say, through the British Space Development Company, the consortium of ten companies over which Sir Robert Renwick presides. I am personally connected with two of them. I feel that if the British Space Development Company were authorised to raise money by public subscription there might be hundreds of thousands of people in this country who would he inclined to risk a moderate investment on the basis of the calculated profitability of a communications satellite. I do not feel that the burden should liesolely on the taxpayers of the countries concerned, many of whom may have no desire whatever to risk even a small sum in such an enterprise. I should add here that it would perhaps not seem to he right to appeal to the public to invest in this project until the applications of Blue Streak, with its French second stage and German third stage, have been clearly defined.
I do not think that I have seen a definite statement from the Government that the application—that is to say, what is to be put on top—will consist of a communications satellite. I hope that the Government will make a definite statement in this respect as soon as possible. There seems to be a general feeling in official circles, and in industry, that the launching of such a satellite, mainly for telephony, would be desirable. When the application has been

91
defined, I would hope that it might then be possible to form an international company, perhaps similar to the old Suez Canal Company, in which private enterprise as well as Governments would have an interest.
Britain and her Commonwealth have always been in a leading position in long-range communications in the world. Indeed, we need such communications more than any other group of countries, because the Commonwealth is so widely spread. We have led in the laying of cables across the oceans, and now I believe it to be essential that we should lead again in this new method of communications, which should be considerably more economical. I think I am right in saying that it will cost something in the order of £90 million to lay the round-the-world cable, which will have only 80 circuits in it. For substantially less than this amount, excluding the cost of developing the launching vehicle (which, after all, will have other applications), a communications satellite system can be developed and put into operation with all of its ground equipment and provide a service not merely to the areas near a cable but to the world. A system of this kind would have such a flexibility of growth that within two decades several thousands of telephone circuits, as well as one or two television channels, could be accommodated.
It looks as though space telephone systems are likely to follow, as cables have done, the pattern of ocean-borne world trade. The largest need is between continents which have seaboards on the Atlantic Ocean. Indeed, it seems likely that more than two-thirds of the world's space-communication needs could be served by a single satellite in stationary orbit over the North Atlantic. The nations which would benefit most are those with the largest ocean-borne trade—that is to say, the United States, the United Kingdom and, thirdly, perhaps surprisingly, Japan, whose exports are 100 per cent. ocean-borne. The largest continental responsibility lies with Europe, including the United Kingdom. With increasing telephone requirements following our trade routes such satellites would, in my view, and in the view of many experts, become a fundamental necessity.
My Lords, on the whole project of launching the satellite I should like to say here that I am much impressed by the interest, energy and enthusiasm of my right honourable friends, not only the Minister of Aviation but also the Minister for Science, and of his officials as well as of those of the G.P.O., especially since they went on their mission to the United States. The work that the G.P.O. are doing at Goon Hilly Down to receive signals from the American communications satellite which is to be launched next spring is a sign of their interest and determination that we should not be left behind in this field.
I have also made it my business to find out the attitude of the Australians in this matter. Australia is an isolated but highly-developed country, and has a requirement for many communication links with the rest of the world. At the moment, however, these are limited to telegraph cables and an ionospheric radio telephone circuit which is really not much better than that which existed in 1936. The Australians regard voice communication with the rest of the world as a most important facility, for they are partners in the £28 million Pacific link of the round-the-world cable which, as I say, will provide only 80 circuits. This would probably cover Australia's requirements for, say, five years, but if the traffic on the transatlantic cables is any indication, the number of circuits will need to be increased radically at the end of that time. The expenditure involved, as will be seen, is already in satellite-cost class.
Although Australia has had an enormous development in its industry since the war, most of its overseas income is still derived from primary products, the quantity and quality of which are largely dependent upon their weather. Better long-term weather prediction would certainly enable Australia to plan its flock movements and plantings, and could, I am told, save it several tens of millions of pounds per year. But, of course, Australia's interests are even more specific and immediate, since they have developed one of the few facilities in the free world from which satellites can be launched. The noble and gallant Field-Marshal, Lord Slim, who regrets not to be present here to-day, tells me that, so far as

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Woomera is concerned, he thinks that there is no doubt whatever that that is by far the best range in the world from the point of view of the amount of land over which a missile travels before reaching the sea. When he first saw it some years ago, he thought it was rather like a very well equipped racing stable without any racehorses. He suggests that the sooner we get these other racehorses into it—although there are, perhaps, some fillies already—and really start training them, the better.
While discussing the contribution of the Commonwealth, I cannot fail to mention Canada, which is carrying out extensive research in the ionosphere and on the earth's magnetic field, and is also doing research on the upper atmosphere using Canadian-developed rockets fired from the Churchill range, which is the joint facility of Canada and the United States. I gather that British experiments have already been included in Canadian rockets and that it is expected that this type of co-operation will be extended in the future. But this is mainly what I might describe as "non-orbital" stuff. Canada is also developing a satellite of its own, which is to be launched by the National Astronautic and Space Administration from California early next year. This satellite will measure the properties of the ionosphere from above and from a near circular orbit at a height of some 625 miles. Canada are, therefore, well in the field too, and in fact should have their satellite up long before Europe can get theirs into orbit. But, of course, the Americans are giving them considerable assistance in this.
Having discussed the practical and limited communications scheme and the Commonwealth interest in it, I should none the less re-emphasise what will certainly be clear to your Lordships: that both the Soviet Union and the United States are going much further than this. The people of both of these countries seem to be imbued with the same kind of spirit of enterprise which inspired Vasco da Gama and Christopher Columbus to cross an ocean without any certainty that they would discover land on the opposite side; the kind of spirit which prompted Captain Cook to make his journeys, which were to Australia, not in the interests of getting to Australia, but in the interests of
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astronomy and space research. No doubt in this country many of our most earnest enthusiasts would feel that it would be in a true Elizabethan tradition for this country to look out beyond our present limited horizons toward the wider and further exploration of outer space. Some may say that the analogy of the voyagers of the fifteenth and later centuries is false. It may perhaps be so from the scientific and technical points of view, but not, I believe, from the psychological. None the less, I agree that hard economic facts may make such further efforts impracticable for us at present, even in conjunction with our Allies.
Yet despite this, the spirit of adventure does still exist among the peoples of the British Commonwealth. Why do Englishmen climb Mount Everest? Why do others carry out expeditions to the North and South Poles? Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, who I am glad to see will be taking part in this debate, can enlighten us on this. I am not asking that we should lose sight of the ground on which we stand, but I do ask that we should give every encouragement to those who are in a business which may affect us all. I am not speaking of space fiction here. We must forget that, for it bedevils the argument. True interest does exist in the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. I do not find the same interest in this country, except, perhaps, in a few of those directly concerned in research establishments and industry, and, of course, among the young, for whom space has a special, maybe almost mystical, appeal, an appeal on which, perhaps, the right reverend Prelate may comment.
There are, of course, numerous by-products to be gained from space research in general. In addition to the benefits in the fields of communications, navigation, and weather forecasting, we must not forget the technological stimulus which the development of a satellite launcher will create in many different fields concerned with high-vacuum conditions, power sources, control mechanisms, electronic instrumentation, the resistance of materials to extremely high temperatures, and so on. I will not go further into these, or into the spread of general economic benefits and the creation of vast new industries

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which will result, important as these are bound to be. I recognise, of course, that it is most important that in going into space other projects in which we may be in advance of others, which are especially the concern of the Ministry of Aviation, such as the vertical take-off aircraft and the supersonic aircraft, should not be starved.
Our American friends issued, some little time ago, an important report on the values of space exploration, which came before a Committee of Congress, the Scientific and Technical Committee, and which is contained in Union Calen-Jar No. 928. Some of the values which they mention would, I know, be confirmed by our own scientists, especially in so far as they concern astronomy, astrophysics, meteorology, and, of course, satellite relays. But these may, so to speak, be described as aims or end products in themselves, and should not be confused with the so-called fringe benefits. The Americans make many claims. They make in this document some 53 claims, and a considerable number of them relate to every-day living.
I hope that the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, who is a chemist and physicist (unlike the noble Lord with a very similar name), will be able to discuss some of these claims. Some of them, he may say, may be special pleading; others may possibly be relatively trivial; but I feel that a considerable number of them do make sense. For example, as a result of work done after the Second World War on lenses and plastics, the glass industry made substantial gains, and a commodity which is called (I am not certain how to pronounce it) "Pyroceram", which was developed for missile radomes, is now being used in the manufacture of pots and pans. Other materials suitable for use in the nuclear preservation of food may, perhaps, make your Lordships even better fed than we may already be!
The Americans also claim a whole series of benefits in the field of medical research and health problems, which are being solved by the electronic equipment used in space craft. These are only a few particular instances out of a long list, to which, none the less, I should like to add the finely-woven stainless steel cloth, which is designed for parachuting space vehicles back to earth. This
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material is about one-fifth the thickness of a human hair, and is believed to have a potential for industry and consumer alike; but there are many others.
My Lords, when I visited the Soviet Union in May of this year, I was invited to appear on Moscow television. During the course of an unscripted interview, which centred around the possibility of increasing the number of scientific and cultural exchanges, and also the signing of the new United Kingdom/U.S.S.R. Agreement on the peaceful uses of atomic energy, I suggested would it not be a good thing if we could also co-operate on the peaceful uses of space? This view seemed to meet with general agreement. Everyone in the studio started beaming. I was interested to see that Russians attended the Congress of the International Astronautical Federation in Washington in October of this year and that two Russian scientists have also been visiting Jodrell Bank during recent months. I should add that I have just received the exciting news that my colleague, Mr. Geoffrey Pardoe, who is Chairman of the Technical Committee of the British Space Development Company, and I have been invited by the head of the Soviet Academy of Sciences to visit the Soviet Union to meet their own space scientists.
Whether it will be practical, as Sir Bernard Lovell has suggested, to arrange that experiments made and outer space probes sent up should be conducted in an internationally agreed manner is, of course, another matter, but obviously it is an idea and an aim which is well worth pursuing. Indeed, all that Sir Bernard Lovell says is worth studying and inwardly digesting, not least his recent articles in the New Scientist on the trend towards stifling basic research and in last Sunday's Sunday Times, in which he repeats his criticism of those who may be contaminating extraterrestrial space, as in the case of Project Needles. I am glad to say that I have heard from a friend in the American Embassy that these needles have now been lost. Whether they are therefore still a contamination, I do not know. In his article in the Sunday Times, Sir Bernard also praises the Russians for their brilliant scientific achievement in photographing the other side of the moon. I cannot refrain from saying here how much Jodrell Bank and the telescope there owes to the vision

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of those in charge of the Nuffield Foundation, which helped to finance it at a critical moment.
It will not do for us to take only a half-hearted interest in these matters. We have to make a real contribution and lead Western Europe into space itself. Let us postpone for the present the Q3's, the Channel bridges and the claustrophobic tunnels, each of which will cost as much as, if not more than, the development programme of the rocket vehicle. These are old-fashioned ideas. Instead, we should concentrate our immediate efforts on securing for this country a place in the inner fringes of outer space. We have to decide now whether we go into this or not. No final decision has yet been taken on the project of launching a European satellite. We must make up our minds now whether we do it with all of our friends, with some of our friends or on our own. A decision now to do nothing, unlike other decisions which we may make in other fields, is irreversible. If we do not decide to go in now, we are out of it for ever. Can we afford to be out? Should we remain out and then have to buy rockets and hire sites from our American friends?
Personally, I believe that the United Kingdom, Europe, the Commonwealth and, I might add, the French community, have the resources, scientific, technical and industrial, to do this. We have the capacity to get into space. Having said that, I ask, on what ticket should we go into it? I believe that we must look at it as a hard business man would look at it. We should go into space for technical and commercial reasons, and not purely on academic and theoretical grounds. Putting men into space at this stage, in my view, is a complete waste of time. That is not the way to go about it. I urge, therefore, that we should play a leading part and take a major share in the proposed £70 million investment in E.L.D.O., and I hope that the Treasury will not look too harshly upon this project.
Your Lordships will have gathered from what I have said that my main objects in putting forward this Motion to-day have been threefold: first, to increase interest in this country generally in space research; secondly, to urge the Government to press ahead with the
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European satellite in conjunction with their Allies and with industry, and thirdly, to urge the Government also to consider how the West may co-operate further with the Soviet Union in the peaceful uses of space. I hope that these aims may be achieved and, believing so, I beg to move for Papers.
3.16 p.m.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: My Lords, I think that we should all be greatly obliged to the noble Earl who has raised this important topic. It is a matter very much before the public mind. If we go ahead with it it is going to involve large sums of money. Since the noble Earl has declared an interest in the subject, I think that I may do the same, though I find it rather hard to define what it is. Perhaps it will be sufficient if I say that nobody involved, as I am, in the electronics industry can remain uninvolved very long in the sort of topic we are discussing this afternoon. The subject is of supreme importance to men of science. Any massive injection of money by the Government into the scientific world for some particular project tends to permeate through the entire scientific community. To some extent it acts like a central mechanism of the bank rate variety. Whatever is decided at the centre makes itself felt on the periphery and can make or mar what occurs there, by giving a natural or artificial direction to our scientific effort. For this reason, it is extremely important that whatever is decided at the centre should be wisely conceived.
The money involved—the noble Earl gave the figure of £70 million—may not sound large in relation to the scale of the economy as a whole, or even to the scale of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Budget, but it is large indeed in relation to the total scientific effort of the community and would involve ear-marking a large proportion of that effort for a particular project.
It seems to me that there has been a tendency for four major sources of misunderstanding to cloud our judgment in discussing this subject. The first is almost a myth. It was derived from the spectacular success of the Manhattan project and the explosion of the first atomic bomb, followed by the fairly rapid conversion of energy to that provided by a nuclear power station. The myth is to the effect that scientists can

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do whatever you ask of them at short notice if given a sufficiently large sum of money. One conclusion drawn from this myth, if it is accepted, is that the sum of money involved in anything like the Manhattan project is something which a country like the United Kingdom, whose economy is in a state of only marginal balance, simply cannot afford. No doubt this may be true in some cases. Another conclusion is that, since British scientists are so much better than anybody else's, we can afford it. That, I think, is a piece of hubris we would do well to abandon, because human intellect is the same the whole world over. The fact is that scientists can be effective in this sort of context if the basic knowledge of how to do it has been established in advance. This was the case in the atomic bomb project and in relation to the nuclear power stations.
Your Lordships may like to consider our comparative success in converting the energy of a fission bomb into that provided by a nuclear power station, and our relative failure to do anything comparative with the fusion or H-bomb. In the former case, we know how to set about the task. The residual problems to be solved were only technological. In the other case, we did not know how to make hydrogen power stations and all the money spent on it so far has done little more than illuminate our ignorance.
This is highly relevant to space travel, because at the moment we are using extremely heavy-handed methods to do by inelegant means what our ignorance prevents us from doing better. That is the long and short of it. That is why I feel that any analogy with the Columbus period is fundamentally false. Columbus crossed the Atlantic as a professional sailor in a sailing ship with a crew who themselves were professional sailors and who spent their lives in such sailing ships. They were all accustomed to being at sea, and navigation was the same all over the sea. They had every reason to suppose that if they found land it would be similar to the land which they had left. All these analogies are false in the case of space travel, and we should not fall into any fantasy or myth-making on this subject.
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The second confusion lies in the distinction between engineering means and scientific ends. It is true that the tools in some branches of science that deal with research have become very expensive. One thinks immediately of giant particle accelerators that cost millions and millions of pounds. Nuclear physicists use them in order to study the sub-nuclear structure of matter. The same is true of the launching vehicles for space craft. All these devices are triumphs of engineering rather than triumphs of science. They are engineering means to scientific ends. Without their bubble chambers and particle counters our giant cyclotrons would stand useless and idle. If extra-terrestrial space were bursting with rockets like Trafalgar Square on Guy Fawkes night no knowledge of space would accrue for that reason. It is the instruments they carry with them and the brains of the men behind the instruments which alone can get the results.
The cost of this instrumentation is relatively small compared with the cost of the engineering means of putting the instruments into orbit. We must endeavour to find sensible ways of sharing or reducing the cost of these means, to the ownership of which no false prestige should be allowed to attach. The designers of these devices are in fact engaged in a sort of technological leapfrog. The latest design is always the biggest and best for a short period, but it does not remain so for long. Everyone takes it in turn to lead for a while, but the lead is short-lived. Kudos should be attached not to the date on which some device was the biggest and best of its kind in the world, but to the output of useful work conducted with it during the course of its history. False preoccupation with means will lead to the neglect of ends. Due to what may have been an early over-estimate in the minimum weight of a fusion bomb, the Russians have currently a lead in the field of weight placeable in orbit. They are, however, making relatively little scientific use of this lead, although they have made some: they have photographed the back of the moon. But the important scientific results are nearly all being obtained by our friends the Americans with lighter though possibly less

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reliable launching vehicles. I was converted to this view originally by Niels Bohr and Professor Blackett, having argued this out with them many years ago. They became converted to the view they put forward and would now be reluctant to abandon it.
For that reason, I would support the E.S.R.O. and E.L.D.O. schemes. I believe that the Government are also converts to this view and I would take this opportunity of wishing the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, and his colleagues every success in endeavouring to prosecute the idea behind E.S.R.O. and E.L.D.O. If that does not succeed, there are other means of going at it, one being to rent space and time on American or Russian launching vehicles, thereby cutting down the cost of launching and generally enabling us to concentrate what we spend on the important part, which is the instrumentation.
The third confusion which I think afflicts this subject relates to the uselessness of a general truth as an aid to discriminating between particulars to which it applies. It is generally true that all scientific research tends to overflow into quite unexpected and very often beneficial directions which have quite surprising results. This is, I think, a proposition that no serious student of the subject would deny. However, the generality of this truth makes it quite useless as a means of discriminating between one project and another, for it is equally true of all. Whether we try to put rockets into orbit, on the one hand, or on the other hand to drill holes in the bottom of the North Sea to look for natural gas, I am sure that unexpected benefits would derive from either.
I will call these unexpected benefits of research "fringe benefits", to use a popular term borrowed from the businessman's vocabulary. The reason why I call them "fringe benefits" is because they are not necessarily small; they may be very large. But no one seriously undertakes research because of the fringe benefits, for by definition they generally accrue to others and not to the party which undertakes the research. For him they are unforeseeable. But if research is sponsored by the nation, the validity of that argument is
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slightly weakened, because the nation gets the fringe benefit. I think that if we are to finance a programme of space research we must do it because of the merit of what we are doing and not for the sake of the fringe benefits. They may accrue, but they would be liable to accrue whatever we did.
The fourth source of confusion is the fact that the public are not sufficiently aware of how disappointing are the actual fringe benefits currently coming out of the cold war weapons research. The technological efforts of the First World War and of the Second World War had a more fertilising effect than those of the cold war, which has now been going on for as long as the two hot wars combined. I would submit that if research in the cold war is having the same fertilising effect on industry as that of either of the two hot wars its results ought to be apparent by now, if not to a layman, at least to a technological historian. But I find it difficult to locate them. The noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, was cautious in his use of the claims made in the United States Government publication to which he referred. I think his caution was well advised. I have analysed some of the claims in that publication in terms of such knowledge as I have. If the noble and learned Viscount would earmark a departmental historian to spend a little whole-time study on them, I am sure my analysis could be much better done.
However, for what it is worth, I have analysed fifty-three of the fringe benefits claimed apart from those which are purely science-fictional. Sixteen of them I would dismiss as relatively trivial, in the sense that some product or process replaces some other product or process on which it is a marginal or even a substantial improvement. But they are not to be compared with the fringe benefits we got as a result of the First World War and the Second World War. About a further twenty claims seem to me to be special pleading, in the sense that a scientific historian would attribute far more of what has been achieved either to the overflow of the Second World War or to the early stages of the guided missile programme and far less to space research itself than is attributed in the document to which I refer.

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Then there come nine more and, in order that I may put forward no claim to omniscience in this House, I must confess that of these nine I do not know sufficient to say very much of them. Of the nine, only three seem to me to be significant, and of the three, two seem rather doubtful starters economically. The survivor of the nine, of which I know little, is the general heading "New Materials". I agree that some interesting new materials have come out of cold war research, but in comparison with the very interesting new materials that have been the product of peacetime academic research by Professor Ziegler in Germany and Professor Natta in Italy. they are certainly trivial, so far.
I think that leaves me with seven out of my fifty-three. Of that remainder I would regard one as an economic non-starter and two as fringe benefits which might equally well have come out of the hydrogen power research programme, since they deal with a rather esoteric branch of knowledge called plasma physics. I am left with four. Of these I find that three are not the fringe benefits of space research, but the actual space research itself; that is to say meteorology, as observation by means of satellites, general astronomy and the astrophysics of the solar system.
Of my fifty-three little nigger boys, I am therefore left with one, and that is the one in particular which the noble Earl has chosen to speak about—and I think his choice was a very wise one—namely, satellite communications. In addition, one or two scientific devices of great interest not mentioned in the Paper have emerged—cryotrons, masers, lasers. and so on. I am sorry to say that our current effort on these interesting devices is very thin.
To cull from the overflow of the wars what we got from each, from the First World War we derived practically the whole of the modern radio and television industry and a great deal of industrial electronic control engineering. During that war, mass assembly techniques matured and gave us the modern consumer durable industry in its present economic form. From the Second World War and its overflow we got radar, computers, solid state diodes and transistors, gas turbines, jet aircraft and nuclear power stations. Nothing so significant has yet emerged
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from the cold war and the space research of the last few years. What are we not doing? If we propose to spend another £70 million on one thing, it is reasonable to look at what might be going by default if we do so.
Let me tell your Lordships a little of what we are not doing in other branches of science which ought to have equal consideration with space research if each is to make claims on the public purse. From the standpoint of the lead we ought to be establishing, and the help we ought to be giving to the younger nations of the Commonwealth, our effort in the fields of tropical medicine and agriculture is quite inadequate. We used to lead in the field of tropical medicine, but we are not leading any longer. Many of these new countries are quite inadequately surveyed geologically. We ought to be helping. The contracts for exploitation are most likely to flow to whoever provides assistance for the geological survey. There is a fringe benefit for you, my Lords! We do not need to seek fringe benefits in outer space; they are waiting for us on mother earth.
Perhaps physics is more fashionable than biology. Let us see what we are not doing in the field of physics. The following are all in jeopardy, and they are all what one might call first-class projects. As is well known, I am speaking at a time of financial stringency for the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Let us look at the effect of this financial stringency on the current programme for various university departments. Decisions have not yet been taken but the following are all under threat. First of all, the budget for C.E.R.N. may have to be cut. Secondly, two university research reactors, one for the northern universities and one for London University, are under threat. Thirdly, three radio telescopes are under threat and also a synchrocyclotron for Glasgow. We may actually have to turn round to our own university professors and say, "We are awfully sorry, but we cannot let you have these for the time being; we have not enough money". With the possible exception of the synchrocyclotron for Glasgow, where there is some room for doubt, they are all first-class projects.
Radio astronomy is an almost entirely British-made field of science. Rocketry at the moment belongs to the Americans

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and the Russians. Is it not folly to neglect our own field of discovery where our own professors are doing first-class work—a field in which we have shown ourselves to be good—to have a dab on an inadequate scale at someone else's? Unfortunately, our neighbour's garden always tends to look greener than our own. I am sure there is much to be learned about lunar physics, but ought we to be learning it to the neglect of geophysics?
To turn to another branch of science which could be said to be neglected, chemistry in the universities is not an expensive subject in the sense I have been mentioning. One £20,000 mass spectrometer goes a long way. But in the field of natural product chemistry there could be one very big item of revenue expenditure which is worth consideration by the noble and learned Viscount—the cost of extracting rare chemicals from soil, animals, plants, insects and so on. Many of these rare physiologically active compounds exist in only trace quantities. To get a rare chemical from the soil it may be necessary to treat hundreds or thousands of tons of soil to get at it, although it may be known to be there. This is not a job for a university laboratory. Some central means must be found for enabling this to be done. As an example of the importance to the nation of this sort of research, the value of the potato crop in this country is about £100 million a year. It ought to be 25 per cent. higher, because some 20 per cent. of the gross crop is destroyed by insect pests such as eelworm. It has been established in Cambridge that there is a substance in germinating potatoes which causes eelworms to hatch. If one could extract this from the soil, establish its constitution, synthesise it, manufacture it, and treat the soil with it before the potatoes were sown. the eelworms would hatch and starve to death in advance of the potato sowing. That would he quite an expensive project. It cannot be done at Cambridge. Some industrial firm must be given a contract for doing it. That is an example of the sort of thing we could be doing, and are not.
It is difficult to get an authentic list of all these things, for the very good reason that professors of chemistry know that the noble and learned Viscount's
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Department is short of funds, and they just do not come forward and ask. They say, "What is the sense of asking for money when you know you just will not get it? Why ask for more when projects which are known to have the support of the Department are themselves in jeopardy?" I believe there may be a large latent demand for funds in the universities for this purpose of which we know little. It seems to me that it is a matter which the Minister for Science might well refer to the Advisory Council for Scientific Policy, Sir Alexander Todd's Council: the magnitude of this so far unmeasured latent demand.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, if I may interrupt this very interesting speech, I should like to make it quite clear that if any such university professors, particularly in the field of chemistry, to which my noble friend has referred, are putting forward a project for research to any of the research councils, I would ensure that it would get a fair hearing on its merits. They should not for an instant harbour the idea that they know they will not get the money. I think I could get the money for something that was really worth while.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: My Lords, I am glad to have that assurance from my noble friend, and I am sure that when our professors read this debate in Hansard they will be equally glad to have that assurance. I think they are a little shy in coming forward. I think that is the trouble at the moment, but I am sure the noble and learned Viscount has a Departmental machine which can get the answer for him. He does not have to take my word for it; he can check it.
Lastly, there are purely topical issues related to subject matter: cryogenics, lasers and solid state physics, where it seems to me that our national effort is fragmentary and lacking in general direction. But I would not pretend to know the answer to what we should do about it. I am no negativist. In dismissing some topics from consideration, I am also ready to advocate others. In saying that we should not spend money on some things, I am quite ready to say

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that we should spend it on others, particularly—and this is very important—on giving the universities some sort of general fund on which they can draw at high speed for instruments when they are in a hurry. In many worthwhile fields university research progresses unnecessarily slowly, while instrumental and other facilities have to be sought from a rather slow-moving public machine.
When so much of direct concern to us is in jeopardy, or may be going by default, what real justification have we for spending, in the name of science, the massive sums required by space research? I am not an enemy of space research as such. I would only ask that whatever we spend on it for scientific purposes should bear some reasonable proportion to the scale on which we suport science as a whole. In saying "reasonable proportion", I do not mean any kind of barren equality. I am not concerned with disparities of expenditure by factors of two or three, as between one subject and another. But the programme begins to look unreasonable, however, when disparities of the order of two or three hundred become involved. On this scale the whole cost of any space research project must fall right outside any limit which can be called reasonable.
Therein, of course, lies a major difficulty, which I acknowledge. A decision to sponsor space research will almost certainly be based on mixed motives. Military men will want space facilities for some purposes; politicians will want them for others; the telecommunications industry may want them for purely commercial reasons; and its proposals must stand or fall by the economic character of the commercial investment represented. Scientists, too, would like to see some space research done.
How are we going to reduce these very mixed motives to some sort of common monetary scale and thereafter form their sum so as to see whether it adds up to the cost of a space programme? I do not pretend to have the answer. This is a topic I must leave to the noble and learned Viscount, and I am sure he will do his best to find an answer to it.
One thing I would beg of him, however, and that is that he will not allow the
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whole cost of whatever is finally decided upon to appear as one item in a list of all the things the Government do for science, so that there will be an excuse for doing no more because we are already doing so much. Only a very small proportion of the total cost will be regarded by scientists as justifiable for science's sake, and they would be dismayed to feel that so much was being granted in one field while so much is withheld or under threat in many others.
3.41 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, it really is a very formidable task to follow the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, with his profound scientific and technological knowledge. I must say, though, that some of his most eloquent remarks were, none the less, as I am sure he would agree, assumptions, and I hope he will not mind my reminding him of an argument I had with him in 1954 when he proved to me conclusively that space travel was an impossibility. He has since explained to me that he did not quite mean it in that sense, and if he would wish to correct me I should be very glad to give way.
Of course, there are a very large number of technical considerations in this matter, and it is extraordinarily difficult for us to absorb all the factors; and, despite the extreme effectiveness of his arguing, I think some of his analogies, the ones he himself tilted at, whether from history or elsewhere, could equally be tilted in the other direction. It was Wilbur Wright who said in 1901, to his brother, "It will be fifty years before man can fly", and Wilbur Wright subsequently said he was so shocked with this demonstration of his own impotence as a prophet that he had never gone in for prediction since. I hope the noble Earl will bring some of the humility—and I do not wish to suggest he is not a humble man—that some of us who have not got quite the same scientific background try to bring to a study of history; and, my Lords, it is clearly impossible for us at this stage to attempt to foresee the whole pattern of future human development.
I believe in planning. I believe that if we could really plan the resources of the world, or indeed of this country, there are all sorts of priorities which we should like to establish before certain other things that we actually do. It is

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obvious that there are many things in a world which is starving which we, as a welfare country, if we were willing to do without, should do without, but it really is not practical politics. This equating of one form of expenditure with another is one of the most dangerous forms of arguing which faces politicians, because as politicians it is our job to take political decisions.
It always used to be argued that if only we could dispense with the cost of one battleship we could do this, that or the other. The current argument usually is to substitute for a battleship the egg subsidy. The noble Earl is now suggesting another version, which is space travel, and I find some difficulty even in following his argument in regard to this, because he told us he was in favour of E.S.R.O., which is a research organisation, and I think he was in favour of E.L.D.O., which is the European Launcher Development Organisation. And it is these particular measures that the Government are supporting and indeed have initiated, and that the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, is hoping we shall support. This is really what we are all in favour of except the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, who has confused us, if I may say so, by producing a wealth of argument against supporting these institutions, as I understand it, having previously said he was in favour of our supporting them. Although I am sorry to throw these somewhat sophistical arguments back at him, I thought there was a certain danger that he, by his eloquence and by his sincerity in these matters, speaking as he was from the Cross Benches, might persuade your Lordships' House that we could safely sit back and ignore this question of space research.
Nor, my Lords—and here I would come to the defence of the noble Viscount the Minister for Science—would it be fair to say that he thinks of research projects in terms of a total budget. He has made very clear on a number of occasions—including the occasion when I myself advocated some research into the problem of eel-worm—that he does not think in terms of an uppermost limit but in terms of particular projects which he hopes will get money. The fact that he has not been very successful is due more to the
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Government than to himself. I hope he will agree it would be an entirely false analogy to say that if we dispense with our support for a European space programme that money will automatically go to universities or to Professor Rya11—and it is tragic that he is not able to get his radio telescope equipment. I do not think that that would necessarily follow at all.
We are all agreed—and I am sure the Minister for Science is agreed—that there is a great deal more he would like to do in the field of support for science in the universities. I can assure him that a number of us will continue to press him very hard, and rather less politely than we have done in the past. But I do not necessarily expect that he will achieve it by withdrawing British support from this European Space Research Organisation or the launcher development field.
It is quite clear that there is an imbalance in the number of fields of scientific research, and this is particularly true of the biological sciences. I have said this before and spoken on this subject in this House. If we really had a world in which we had priorities and in which Governments governed according to the light of reason, we could, in effect, decide—and this is what the noble Earl put his money on—what could be called reasonable and what unreasonable. If this were a matter we could approach with certainty it would be very much simpler, and I should be happy to join the party which succeeded and was able to put it into effect. But unfortunately humanity has not yet succeeded in approaching these issues in this way. The fact remains that, whether we like it or not, Russia and America are in the space business in a big way. It is not a question of our competing. It is not only a question of providing opportunities for investors or private enterprise, and I am not sure whether the argument of the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, on that line was the most convincing part of his very convincing speech. It is a question whether we, the British, whether in the Commonwealth or as Europeans, can now afford to stand aside from what is clearly going to be a tremendously important human development.
There are, of course, many arguments that can be brought forward, for or

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against, in terms of utility and benefit, but I do not think that decisions of this kind can be taken wholly in terms of utility. If I understood Lord Halsbury's argument aright, it was that the First and Second World Wars produced enormous scientific and technological dividends, but the Third, and so far only cold, war has not yet done so. It seems to me that space research might yet be regarded as an acceptable substitute for a Third World War.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Anything is an acceptable substitute for that.
LORD SHACKLETON: It may in fact yet provide more—and in that I am more optimistic than the noble Earl—of the results we hope to achieve. The noble Earl was kind enough to tell me he was going to deal with this theme, and therefore most of my remarks are devoted to this particular aspect of the matter. The noble Earl said that he is in favour of some sort of space research, and the question is, what is the right amount, what is the reasonable amount, what is the two or three times as opposed to the two hundred or three hundred times? We are already committed, as I understand it, to spending something like half a million pounds or £1 million this year. I do not think anyone would argue that we should not take advantage of the help the Americans are giving with their Scout vehicles in carrying out certain research with instruments which we are mounting in these vehicles. The noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, gave us some account of the astounding sums of money that the Americans are spending, and if we were to spend on anything like the rate that they are spending in proportion to the size of our economy we should be spending something like £500 million a year, instead of a figure which, I understand, is likely to be of the order, at the highest, in the next few years of £4 million to £5 million.
I really should like to be able to say something nice about the Government; it is not often we have a chance to do so these days. I would congratulate them on the success of their European space research programme, and I think the Minister of Aviation has been extremely successful in persuading our fellow Europeans to join with us in
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what is the only sensible and reasonable approach to this matter, if in fact we are to go in for it at all. I would at this point make only one criticism. It is unfortunate that there are signs that certain of the countries are wishing to reserve some of their resources for independent space research, and I hope that the initiative that the British have taken in this matter will be firmly followed by other countries and that we will pool our resources.
We also had some discussion as to whether the analogies with Columbus and Cook were valid. Personally, my recollection of history is that the sailors who sailed with Columbus had a great deal less knowledge about where they were going than Major Gagarin when he went up. Indeed, I think when voyagers go into space, to the moon or wherever it is. they will have a much clearer view of where they are going. To start with, they will have photographs taken by unmanned vehicles which have preceded them, whereas I think Columbus's men, who thought in any case that if they were going anywhere it was to India, were much more afraid of sailing over the edge of the world. The noble Viscount will correct me if I am wrong. Certainly they were unaware where they were going.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: They thought they were going to India.
LORD SHACKLETON: They thought, to the East Indies. Captain Cook in fact went out not so much for space research, to observe the transit of Venus, but to look for Terra Australis, which a certain Professor Dalrymple was convinced was necessary in order to balance the world so that it did not tip over. I think it is likely that any space travellers in the future will have a rather more precise knowledge of what they are seeking to do. The fact is that the energy of mankind goes in many strange directions, but until such time as the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, or others, to whatever Parties they may belong, have a clearer view as to how they are going to spend every penny we have, some of our activity will have to be determined partly by instinct, partly by design and partly by the need to play our part along with the rest of the world.
I do not think the arguments in favour of the space research programme in

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terms of fringe benefits are very convincing. The noble Earl mentioned some of them. Some he dismissed. Whether we accept all his dismissals I do not know, but obviously the benefits have been overrated. I am told that among the benefits which will spring from space research is one that we shall have expert knowledge—this is solemnly listed—of excremental processing. I do not know whether your Lordships regard this as an important economic gain, but it is a measure of the almost frivolous or irrelevant nature of some of the suggestions made.
There are some solid gains that will come. There are the examples that the noble Earl gave in regard to communications. It seems to me quite extraordinary that this country in the Commonwealth, with a great direct political as well as economic interest in communications, should stand aside from a field where we have in fact got such an interest. I am told, for instance, that during the Kuwait operation communications broke down at one stage. We are still at the mercy of various forms of interference which would not bother us if there were vehicles orbiting the earth, either round the Equator or round the Poles, supplying us with a much more reliable and, in the long run, probably cheaper form of communication than the enormously expensive and very limited cables we are putting into the sea, whose cost is at least of the same order as the cost of putting vehicles up.
Again, we have had mention of weather. I do not wish to use the argument that we shall perhaps be able to forecast our weather better, but there is no doubt we do not forecast it very well at the moment, and even a small percentage improvement in weather forecasting would be likely to be of enormous value. I suppose the main interest will still be scientific, and to that extent the noble Earl's complaint that this will be equated with scientific research is valid, although for reasons I have given I do not think it will be primarily equated with research. But the importance of the scientific work which will develop, and the possible new knowledge and, through that, the new science—not merely old science or development of existing sciences on earth but major breakthroughs into completely
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new fields—is of a kind which we cannot possibly at the moment foresee. I am told that a telescope in space, once we get it up there—and there are plans already—will be worth more than all the telescopes we have on earth at the moment, because we look out at space at the moment through some rather soupy atmosphere—and I do not mean smog or the atmosphere which normally covers the earth. Until we have a telescope out in space, the extent to which we shall acquire new astronomical knowledge or, at least, new vision of the universe, cannot be foreseen, because we have not yet put one out.
It is quite true that in this matter radio astronomy will not benefit to the same extent because radio astronomers are in fact able to operate on their particular wave lengths through our atmosphere, and there will not be the same gains. But the discoveries that have already been made in inter-planetary space are of pretty considerable interest. We know now, as Milton said, that space is not vacuous, that it is full of surging electronic storms and charged particles, and that it is indeed a place where there is a great deal, at least, of electrical activity going on.
The argument that was used by the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, that there will be technological stimulus is, I think, a valid one. It is one that is supported by many people of distinction, including people like Professor Hawthorne, who is a Professor of Engineering of Cambridge University. I will not waste your Lordships' time by reading all the interesting things he has written on it, but he has said, among other things, that:
"In our study of engineering design teams we find that, as the team progresses with its design task, it programmes the solution of its problems until a highly organised team structure is achieved, in which there are many sub-divisions and specialist groups. In such highly programmed groups innovation is rare and a knowledge of company practices becomes more important than a knowledge of general engineering practices. One may imagine that engineering graduates find that work in the low levels of such structured groups is unrewarding. This may explain why our undergraduates tend ultimately to enter groups which have fresh problems to solve, and why such highly programmed teams do not get the more able and imaginative graduates. I generally advise undergraduates to go where fresh problems are being tackled energetically, for their own good. It would

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be sad to have to advise some of the more able to go elsewhere if they are interested in the engineering problems for which space projects provide the most fruitful field of endeavour to-day."
The argument that we ought, in a better planned society, to persuade our scientists and our technologists to go to work for British Railways or in some other field where there is need for more technological advance, is really in the light of human nature, not a valid one. We cannot, I think, afford wholly to cut our people off from what is in fact going to be one of the most exciting and important of human developments. If we do, we are in danger of stunting ourselves in a field where we ought reasonably to be playing our own part. The returns that we may get in the way of fringe benefits may seem to be fortuitous—they may help in the long run to pay the cost—but I think that the arguments really are that it is impossible for us to turn aside from what, with reasonable luck, is going to open up a whole field of new knowledge and therefore a new science.
We shall indeed probe deeper into some of the mysteries of life. Your Lordships will have read Professor Lovell's articles. They may upset some of our more anthropomorphic prejudices, and we shall be interested to hear what the Church may have to say if, in fact, we find not only life on other planets, but possibly even civilisations. I hope that, however fortuitously or arbitrarily, space will in fact be a unifying force. Undoubtedly, the aeroplane has broken down some of the national boundaries of the world, and I cannot really believe that national boundaries are going to extend into space any more than I think we shall seriously have political arguments extending there about nationalisation or private enterprise. Whatever method will be operated, I think that it will be part of a more wide seeking approach by mankind.
I think that the argument that we ought to stay and cultivate our own little garden, our own backyard, is a valid one until the big boy down the road climbs into the road from his garden. It might be suggested that, if we were wise, we would stay at home and continue to cultivate that little back garden. But I do not think we can do
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this. I do not think at this stage we have the right to say that we are not justified in supporting what is a pretty moderate, but none the less useful, programme which the Government and the European countries have thought out. There is the possibility that, just as the Renaissance gave rise a couple of hundred years later to a scientific renaissance, the Royal Society and a new burst of knowledge, we shall in fact find the same sort of stimulus not immediately but at a later stage.
In seeking a suitable conclusion to this argument, and looking back as one always does to the earlier writers, I was happy to find (I am sure the noble Viscount will agree with this) that Milton also saw space as a non-vacuous place, when he said:
"ride forth, and bid the Deep
Within appointed bounds be Heaven and Earth;
Boundless the Deep, because I Am who fill
Infinitude, nor vacuous the space."
I hope that space will not be vacuous, either in terms of Russians or Americans or Britons.
4.7 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF ST. ALBANS: My Lords, in rising to take part in this debate I find myself rather in the position of the man in the pew. I say that not, I hope, to sugest that we have been listening to anything that might be called a sermon, but in appreciation of the fascinating speeches we have listened to and the wide realm of knowledge that these different experts have opened to us. I have no scientific training, and if I had not had the privilege of reading Prayers in your Lordships' House, I should not have ventured to put down my name to speak in this debate. I was reminded this morning of the story of the old woman, whose outlook I do not share, who seeing a balloon go up, said,
"That be so bumptious to the Almighty."
Her sentiment is more to be commended than her understanding. But we want to have before us the feeling of the common man—the common man with no specialist knowledge; the common man, be he European or Asiatic. I was interested to read the observations of a trained observer—I quote:
"I have recently spent two years in various parts of Asia, and wherever I was, whenever

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the Russians or the Americans (it made no matter which) sent up a rocket round the world or off to the moon, the invariable reaction was: 'It is very wonderful; but if only that money could be spent on the earth instead of up in the sky.'"
I think it is desirable that there should be a brief contribution from this Bench, for this debate concerns scientific research, and scientific research and the advancement of science are in many ways causes the Christians should strive to promote. The Christian understanding of the end and purpose of creation means caring about the world and its life, and involves an openness of mind as well as of heart to the spirit of inquiry when it probes space.
Lord Bessborough's Motion draws attention to the possibilities and problems of space research, and I found myself in agreement with many of his arguments. But to discuss the problems of space research is difficult, for facts are shrouded for most of us in secrecy. The Chairman of the British National Committee on Space Research, Sir Harrie Massey, is quoted as saying that, so far as Great Britain is concerned, there is plenty to learn in the first thousand miles above the earth's surface. My Lords, I submit that there is no compelling need for us to be interested in supporting flights to the moon and so on, which, while providing great opportunities for the acquisition of pure knowledge, are also closely associated with national prestige. So far as we have gone, I understand that we can fairly compare the expenditure on space projects with development expenditure in other spheres, such as the training of teachers to work in undeveloped countries, and the improvement of agriculture in such countries. My Lords, I am thankful for this balance of investment.
The Motion of the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, relates Britain's participation in space research to progress in the U.S.S.R. and to contributions made in the U.S.A. In the light of this progress we face astronomical figures. If we go into this field, my Lords, can we meet the ever-increasing financial demands, and ought we to contemplate such expenditure? Ought we to try to keep up with these giants of Joneses? I come back to the comments made in Asia: "Rockets are very wonderful, but if only that money could be spent on the earth
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instead of up in the sky!" Can we then limit our objectives, and say that there is enough for us to learn in the first thousand miles above the earth's surface? Therefore, need we then spend money on flights to the moon? I judge from their Lordships who have spoken in this debate that they share this point of view in some measure.
Surely, we must pause before committing ourselves to astronomical expenditure, and take note of the very great needs for research in sociology and elsewhere. If our spending is to soar, let it be to help the undeveloped countries in the Commonwealth. Let us take bold action to improve conditions in the West Indies so that their standards of life are rapidly improved and their need to emigrate ceases to be such an acute problem. Let us take another look at housing in this country. In the next twenty years we shall have a population increase of just over 4½ million, and it is calculated that in this period the number of households—that is to say, separate families requiring houses—will increase by 4 million. When we face these problems we need to pause. I understand that the amounts paid by the United Kingdom Exchequer on overseas expenditure have risen to some £720 million in the last nine years. Our contribution certainly is not negligible, but are we thinking in an imaginative way about economic assistance for hard-pressed areas?
In the West, we are accustomed to living in a world of difficulty and margins. President Kennedy addressed Congress and asked for 40 billions of dollars to get to the moon, and the proposal was accepted, for people's imaginations were stretched. Have we not to give more rein to our imaginations, so that we can concentrate on what we can do to help mankind as a whole to realise its potential? Is not this picture in our minds when we pray, "Thy Kingdom Come"? Certainly our economic position is weakened, and certainly there is an argument on the balance of payments which makes it difficult for us to contribute to countries overseas as we would otherwise do. But there are certain ways in which we can act effectively, and I submit that we should look at them before over-reaching ourselves on expenditure for space research. Here, I have

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in mind some of the points which the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, has made.
There is no doubt that space research will go on, but this need not imply that we budget for £100 million a year or so, and compete with the Americans and the Russians in exploring outer space. Such a sum, surely, would be better spent in making the best possible use of our first-class material, our men and our women, and in promoting research in the universities, which I think the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said something about. The search for knowledge for its own sake has all the authority that Christian teaching can give it. Is not our best contribution made in training our people, by realising that scientists are a free export, and, if they feel the urge to work on space projects, they may play their part best if they take their place alongside others in countries overseas, in the United States or in the Commonwealth?
My Lords, I believe there is a danger that space research will dominate our thinking. If it does, are we going to be blind to the needs of the world's children? An educational authority has estimated that a capital sum of £1,250 million is required to bring our educational institutions up to the standard we need by, say, the end of 1970. What would be the total for the Commonwealth if in those lands every child were to have the educational opportunities of children in England? My Lords, I submit that these considerations should be in our minds as we debate the money to be spent on space research. Finally, my Lords, I should like strongly to support the view of the Overseas Development Institute, that the time has come when the Government should be pressed to consider charging a Minister with the responsibility of watching the claims of developing countries, and presenting their cases at moments when the claims made on the Budget by strongly entrenched Departments or powerful interests may be too demanding.
4.17 p.m.
LORD KINDERSLEY: My Lords, after listening to four such interesting and, I might say, learned speeches, I wonder how it is that I have the audacity to participate in this debate, as I can lay no claims whatsoever to
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scientific training or expert technical knowledge on this particular subject. On the other hand, my business activities, in more directions than one, bring me into contact with those who have studied the problems, particularly of space research, both from a technical and from an economic angle. I propose to confine myself to the question of space communication. Here, my Lords, I think I must declare an interest, as Rolls Royce Limited, the company of which I am chairman, is a member of the British Space Development Company, and Rolls Royce is also interested in the work at Spadeadam on Blue Streak. In addition, my firm, Lazard Brothers, made a report on the economics of developing a communications satellite system, which I understand was made available to the Minister of Aviation, and that report was approved by me before being submitted to the Minister.
It is not so long ago, and certainly within the lifetime of many of us here today, that the telephone was developed into a practical instrument of communication. Some fifty or sixty years ago a private individual with a telephone in his house was looked upon as an advanced individual and had the admiration of his neighbours. In our lifetime electricity has revolutionised the lighting of our homes and streets, although I believe there are still some streets left in London which are hand-lit by gas; and when Marconi first sent his message over the air in 1895 it was considered a miracle but unpractical. I remember my father telling me that when he bought his first car very early in the Twentieth Century he had the misfortune to knock down a pedestrian in Hounslow, and the pedestrian got up and apologised and hoped he had not hurt the car. I recount that only as an illustration of the vast changes which have taken place in half a century.
What would modern society do to-day without the telephone, without electric light, without motor cars, without wireless and without television? All of them are now considered as essentials, both at home and in business; in fact, I think it is difficult to imagine the world going round without them. In considering the development of space communications, I am convinced that we have arrived at the stage where we have to take courage

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in both hands and use our imagination. If we do so, a vista is opened up—telephone calls overseas without inconvenient time scheduling; the absence of interference effects due to poor transmission conditions; the capacity for the transmission of television programmes; the use of satellites for navigational aids and for more accurate weather forecasting; and, on the military side, for reconnaissance, early warning and missile launching. So far as fringe benefits are concerned, I am afraid I am more optimistic than the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, as I consider that these are incalculable and might amount to revolutionary benefits to this country and the world in general in stimulating new scientific discoveries, inventions and new techniques applicable in other fields. The prize is colossal if successful launching of communication satellites can be achieved at a cost which can be considered economic to the future.
I do not think we can be left behind. In fact, I do not think we can afford to miss the bus. It is evident that our friends in the U.S.A. are going to go ahead developing the satellite communication system, and I understand that the General Post Office are developing a receiving station in Cornwall to conduct experiments using an American satellite. If we do not develop a British system—and by this I mean British manufactured satellites—it is almost certain that American equipment will have to be used. We have technicians in this country second to none, and if we fail to go ahead with the satellite communications system we are in danger of losing on enthusiastic team to competitors while the programme is still open to some doubt. Whether it be a national, a Commonwealth or a joint European venture I urge the Government to take courage in both hands and to embark without too much delay on a programme to prove that a successful communications satellite can be launched; and I am convinced that over the years and in the foreseeable future there can be a substantial financial return to meet the cost of developing the system. To sum up, my Lords, I am of the opinion that this country cannot afford, either on its own or in conjunction with the Commonwealth, or with other European nations, to delay or exclude itself from the development of the communications satellite system.
4.25 p.m.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, I, too, must declare an interest in this subject, as the company for which I work is deeply interested in these developments. I am sure we should all agree with the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, when he said that there is a danger of drawing wrong conclusions from false analogies. Nevertheless, it is many thousands of years ago that the Chinese started experiments with lodestone and the Greeks played with pieces of amber, which they called electron, and rubbed them and found that they attracted small particles; and it is 60 years ago next week when Marconi sent his first message across the Atlantic. One could quote many other examples of early discoveries when the men who made them had no conception of the ramifications which would stem from those apparently trivial observations or inventions. Indeed, Marconi was told, I believe, that although his invention was interesting it would never be of any use owing to the curvature of the earth.
I would agree with those—the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, was one—who believe that we must enter this field. We cannot afford to lag behind in this part of general technical progress, and we must make full use of all the benefits we can expect from developments in space. There are three general spheres in which we may hope for such results, I believe. First, there is a general increase in scientific knowledge. This, I think, is something which everyone agrees is desirable, although no one can tell where the increase in the store of human knowledge will eventually lead. Some of it will be useful; some of it will never be useful. In space, there are so many ways in which scientific knowledge can be advanced that it would take far too long to make a category of them all to-day, but certainly we can make great advances by taking advantage of the new environments of space—such an advance as has already been mentioned, for instance, in the use of telescopes in the clear conditions of outer space.
We can make observations on radiations which are impossible within the atmosphere; we can study, perhaps, the evolutionary processes which have gone on within the stars and planets in a way which is quite impossible if we remain earthbound; we can study the magnetic

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fields—and already some interesting results have come from the measurements that have been taken in space; and we can study a far wider spectrum of light. There is, too, an interesting proposal to check the general theory of relativity by comparing the times of, I believe, two atomic clocks, one in an earth satellite and one on the earth. Who can say whether that is useful or useless? It will certainly add to the store of human knowledge. We might even, perhaps, find new forms of life on the moon or on the planets when we visit them, and surely that will be something well worth while. Then there are the special applications, and I cannot regard these as fringe applications. Surely, when we put a communication satellite into space it is something that we do with clear intention; it is not a fringe benefit. Similarly, there may be navigational satellites and weather satellites. Ultimately, perhaps, my Lords, we shall be able to travel to the moon, and even to the planets. I should like to come back in a moment to the subject of a communication satellite, because it is in itself, as the noble Lord, Lord Kindersley, has said, of great importance.
Then we come to the much discussed matter of fringe benefits—and I must say that I thought the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, gave us a splendid example of fringe benefits of a space debate when in his interesting speech he spoke of such problems as the eel worm in potatoes. I am much more optimistic than the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, about the advantages we shall get from these so-called fringe benefits. It is extremely difficult to say precisely what these will be, but, with the greatest respect, I felt that he looked at the subject rather too much from the point of view of the scientist working in a laboratory. I feel that many of the advantages that we are going to get from developments in space are going to be in the technological sphere. He mentioned this, but I feel that he did not put enough emphasis on it. The ultimate test of an invention, of a new advance in science, is when it is put into something which has to work, and not only has to work once, but has to go on working for hours, maybe years on end.
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Surely, my Lords, in these satellites that we are going to put up, be they communications satellites, weather satellites, research satellites, or whatever they are, one of the things which will be absolutely vital is the reliability of the equipment. If we spend hundreds of thousands of pounds in launching one of these satellites, we shall take very great care before we do so to make sure that the equipment in it is very satisfactory and has every chance of lasting for as long as we design it to last. This is a sphere which anyone who has worked in complicated engineering industry knows is of the greatest importance. Advances have been made so rapidly over the past twenty years that reliability in many spheres is beginning to suffer. I believe that that is one way in which we shall all benefit from these developments in space. I believe, too, that we shall see new materials developed, materials which are light and strong, which are heat-resisting, which are good insulators and light, so that they will not reduce the useful pay-load in our satellites.
There are some fascinating developments taking advantage of the electrical properties of materials at extremely low temperatures. There are the advances which are being made now in micro-miniaturisation of electronic components. These will receive added stimulus from a space development programme which I do not think they could receive in any other way. One final example in this field is the new methods which are required for the production of electrical power within these satellites. It is easy to say that advances of this kind can be made without going to all the trouble of putting satellites in orbit. In an ideal world I believe that would be true; but it is a well established fact that these advances do not take place in the way that I have described unless there is an extremely rigorous requirement in front of the engineers and technologists who are designing the equipment.
What are Britain's plans in this field of space development? We have already heard of the European Launcher Development Organisation, based on Blue Streak, and I, too, would add my congratulations to the Minister of Aviation for his successful efforts to obtain

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collaboration in Europe. I believe that it is of the utmost importance that Britain should take an adequate part in this work; but I do hope that the relatively large amount of money which is going to be spent on E.L.D.O. towards the development of Blue Streak will not prevent a balanced programme being undertaken in this whole field. At the moment it appears that most of the money that we are going to subscribe in this country will be put into E.L.D.O. rather than into E.S.R.O., the research organisation. E.S.R.O. is the main inter-governmental organisation which is going to take part in the research programme, first of all putting up sounding rockets, and later in the launching of satellites, based, we hope, on Blue Streak.
In this field it is tremendously important, if we are to obtain those fringe benefits which have been mentioned to-day, that British industry is allowed to play a full part, and that there should be no question of the greater proportion of this work being done in Government establishments, excellent places though they are. If that is done, it will mean that British industry will not benefit as rapidly or as completely as it should do, and must do, if we are to obtain full value from the large sums of money which will be spent.
Then, my Lords, there is another unofficial body, Euro-Space, which is a collection of firms in Europe who have banded together to prepare proposals to be presented to their Governments for space development programmes. This seems to me to be a most valuable first step in collaboration in this field, and Britain is playing an important, and in some areas a leading, part in it. But we have to remember that all work going into this will be quite valueless if, among other Governments, our Government do not give it backing when the time comes; and not only do not give it backing, but do not give it backing with all the speed necessary. I can foresee the sort of situation arising which we have discussed in this House before now, and which, unhappily, exists in some of our defence supply arrangements, where there is too much detailed control by the Government financial authorities; where there is too much reluctance to allocate a sum of money to a particular sphere of activity. I very
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much hope that in the case of the European Space Research Organisation the Government will allocate a definite sum of money for this work, which those who are put in charge of it can allocate between various projects in the way they think best.
May I now take up a few minutes on the subject of communications satellites? There is still a very great deal to be done in this field. There is a great deal of investigation work to be done to make sure that a communications satellite will be an economic proposition. Until that work has been done, it is quite impossible to assess the economic possibilities. At the moment, it looks as though a communications satellite would be of great value in transmitting television pictures round the world, and in making a very great increase in the number of telephone channels available. Whether this will be an economic proposition must depend upon whether a substantial increase of telephone users, who will make use of this facility, comes about.
It is rather dangerous in this field to draw analogies from the North Atlantic traffic, which I believe is quite unique in its density, and is quite different from the traffic which goes on in other parts of the world. There will be many difficult problems of judgment to solve before we can be reasonably certain that a communications satellite—as, for instance, a European-Commonwealth communications satellite—will be a paying proposition, for it seems likely that the North Atlantic one is almost bound to be put up by our friends in America. Nevertheless, I am quite clear that we must go ahead as if we were going to enter this field, and go ahead with all speed, and the investigations of the economic possibilities must go ahead alongside the technical advances. There is one rather sad aspect of the work which is going on at the moment in that it seems to me to be shrouded in so much unnecessary security and secrecy. Would it not be possible for British industry as a whole to be informed, not necessarily of every detail but in a broad way, of what the Post Office proposals are, and what the Government's intentions are, in this field?
That brings me, my Lords, to the whole question of security in the field of peaceful space development. How much

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security is necessary? Is this not a field in which there is a wonderful opportunity for international co-operation? It has already been mentioned to-day that there are opportunities for collaboration with the Russians. Is this not something which we should grasp with both hands, and is it not now being rather spoilt by an unnecessary amount of security and secrecy? Unhappily, officials who have confidential information rather like to stick to it. Any one who has it likes to keep it confidential, because it gives power to that individual. I hope we shall break this down with all possible speed, so that in this country industry is brought into close partnership with government; and that internationally we shall share our knowledge, so far as it does not touch military security, with other countries throughout Europe and the Commonwealth.
There is also an urgent need for international agreements on the use of space. This extends right across the whole field. Can we not make more progress than has been made already, in obtaining agreements on such questions as the recording of the launching of satellites? If we are to get the best use of this development and avoid using space for military purposes to the danger of the whole human race, surely it is not too soon to make really stringent efforts to get this kind of international agreement before things have gone too far.
I should like to touch on one point which the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of St. Albans made in his most interesting speech. His main theme was that it was a pity to spend all this money on space development when there were so many other needy causes waiting for money to be spent on them, such as housing and the under-developed countries. I agree that all these things are desirable, but we shall never be able to do them in this country unless our economy is strong and prosperous. As we were saying a few weeks ago in another debate in your Lordships' House, unless we move forward technologically—and the field we are discussing to-day is one in which we must move forward—and unless we keep up with the technical progress of other countries, we shall certainly not be prosperous enough to have resources
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to put into those things which the right reverend Prelate hopes to see done.
This is a tremendously important point. The reason why we want to proceed with space development is to keep ourselves ahead technically in this highly competitive race. I agree most sincerely with the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, to whom we are all very grateful for bringing forward this question, and with the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, that we cannot afford to be left behind in the work of space development. To some extent, the question of what we are going to get out of it is a matter of faith, but can we opt out of it now? That would mean that we are virtually opted out of it forever. At least, it would be very much more expensive to get back into it at a later stage. I would congratulate the Government on the steps they have taken so far and would urge them to go ahead with all speed in allocating resources among the different activities in the space field, in the faith that these will produce useful, even vital, results in the future.
4.44 p.m.
LORD FLECK: My Lords, I should like to associate myself with those noble Lords who have thanked the noble Earl for giving us an opportunity of debating this most important subject. Like other noble Lords, I would, at the beginning of my remarks, declare my interest. As Treasurer of the Royal Society, I have a considerable responsibility in the amount of endeavour which the Royal Society is putting into space research at this time. I should like to make it clear that my personal interest is in the general scientific aspect of this matter and that I have little or no specialised knowledge, and certainly no practical experience of this type of work.
There is no doubt—and this must be emphasised—that in the realm of pure science, of valuable additions to the sum total of natural knowledge, the subject is one of great importance, both at the present time and in the future. The conventional conception of space research in scientific and technological circles is that it essentially involves rockets and therefore the projection of considerable quantities of materials away from the earth through the atmosphere into interplanetary regions. I would emphasise

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that that approach is an important one and nothing that I say should be taken to minimise its importance.
Nevertheless, I would ask your Lordships to bear in mind that there are other ways of gaining important space knowledge and doing important space research. A tremendous amount of useful and important work in exploring space can be done solely from the earth's surface. Classical astronomy should be given a full measure of acknowledgement for its contribution to space knowledge. I need only remind your Lordships of the brilliant work done as long ago as 1868 by Sir Norman Lockyer, who discovered the existence of helium in the sun more than thirty years before that element was known as a terrestial one.
More searching, perhaps, and certainly more immediately rewarding, so far as space knowledge is concerned, is the recently developed discipline of radio-astronomy, to which several noble Lords have already referred. Basically, radio-astronomy has its most immediate function in helping us to investigate centres in far-off space which are sources of powerful radiation, not necessarily associated with masses of material, that can be picked up by normal optical means. Additionally, radio-astronomy gives us information about conditions in the vast spaces between the stars and is therefore most appropriately considered as one of the valuable tools in space research.
I should like to emphasise what has already been said. In this branch of science, the leading position is held by British scientists. I am sure that your Lordships do not need to be reminded of the commanding position that is held by the Jodrell Bank telescope. with which the name of Sir Bernard Lovell is so closely associated. Then we have the work going on at Cambridge University on radar by Professor Ryle. I must also mention the Royal Radar Establishment at Malvern and the far-reaching pioneering work of Dr. Hey. Essentially, there are two types of radio telescope. First, there is the non-steerable type, exemplified by that at the Mullard Observatory at Cambridge, where one part of the fixed element is more than half a mile long. Secondly, we have the steerable type, of which the best known
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is the massive Jodrell Bank telescope, 250 feet in diameter. Expensive as these instruments may be, work with them is very much less expensive than whole-hearted experiments of putting satellites into orbit.
These telescopes are important scientifically from three points of view. First, we can define those parts of the solar system which are important sources of radiation, such as the areas associated with sun spots. Another important solar question on which these telescopes can contribute information is the magnitude of the sun's corona. Secondly, these telescopes are also unique for the study of radiation from the Galaxy, of which our system is a member. In the same way, they can contribute to our developing understanding of phenomena associated with other galaxies. Their contribution to our knowledge of space between stars is quite definite, and we can obtain knowledge of the conditions in space where the concentration of matter is less than one million millionth part of that we have in our normal atmosphere at the earth's surface. Thirdly, and finally, these telescopes are important to those pursuing space research by means of satellites. By their means the satellites can be traced and information of the conditions being experienced by the satellites can be brought back to earth and made available to the observers.
As I have already said, British scientists are in a commanding position in this field of space research. I trust that as and when your Lordships are in a position to encourage and help this field of space research, either through university effort or through provision for Governmental research, you will not fail to exercise to a full extent the undoubted weight of your opinion in this matter.
I now turn to make a few comments on space research as it is conventionally understood in technological circles; that is to say, putting up masses of material out of the earth through the atmosphere into interplanetary space. So far as concerns responsible organisations in this country—that is to say, organisations with a research programme and the means to carry out extensive work on that programme—the generally accepted definition of the research work to be undertaken is research work carried out

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by instruments launched by rockets. They may be vertical sounding rockets or satellites. What I wish to emphasise particularly is the broadly accepted view that our research should be carried out by instruments. That means (and I am glad to know that there has been no dissenting view in your Lordships' House this afternoon) that, so far as responsible organisations are concerned, they are not interested at this time in putting a man into space, either by verticle sounding methods or into orbit. It is a widely held opinion, and to my mind a justifiable one, that much greater returns for the effort involved will be obtained by restricting the work to the use of instruments alone rather than becoming involved at this time in the intricate questions which are raised whenever a man's life is concerned.
Research in space by means of instruments in satellites holds in itself a very large potential of worthwhile work, and whatever efforts we can make here contain a promise of the most valuable results. From the surface of the earth we are limited in looking out into space in much the same kind of way as we are limited in looking out of a room through a window in an ordinary house. On one side of short waves we can in general use only light, and that is the limitation of optical astronomy. On the long wave side we can use only waves of between one centimetre up to, say, 30 metres, and there again is a limitation. If, however, we can have a stabilised platform—and I emphasise that it has to be a stabilised platform—in a satellite equipped with suitable measuring instruments, many, if indeed not all, of those limitations can be removed; and such a stabilised platform is at least a conceivable technical achievement.
The Minister of Science will no doubt be referring when he speaks to the views put before him from his Advisory Council on Scientific Policy. These are fully set out in the Council's Report for the year 1958–59, and I hope I condense their views fairly when I say that their basic conception is based on the desirability of using British earth satellites in American launchers with Commonwealth and other country collaboration. In all this there is this implied acknowledgment that we in the
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United Kingdom cannot hope to provide resources to develop independently on an equal footing with the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R.
On a matter that has been raised by the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, and others of your Lordships, I would point out that the Council have repeatedly emphasised the importance of adequate expenditure on research and development in fields directly and immediately vital and important for the welfare of our people and for the strengthening of our economic position, as well as for the improvement of living standards in less well developed territories. They say:
"To leave those needs unsatisfied in order to shoulder the crippling cost of a large programme of space exploration on a purely national basis would be, in the Council's view, the grossest folly."
I am glad to think that the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, and others of your Lordships have agreed with that in principle. In their Report for 1959–60 the Council reaffirmed their previous advice. I would add that with the general policy as outlined by the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy I am in complete agreement. I am one of the Council members, and I whole-heartedly support the views which they have put forward.
Within the limits that have thus been indicated, how should this country carry out its agreed "space-research-by-instruments" policy? The Royal Society is much involved, and within its precincts many voluntary committees meet to further the work, a large portion of which is done in universities, under the general guidance of Sir Harrie Massey as Chairman of the British National Committee on Space Research. The detailed executive technical work, with the co-operation of the Royal Aircraft Establishment, is in the hands of two men (and I emphasise that) seconded to the Royal Society from the Ministry of Aviation. I would suggest, with considerable emphasis, that this is not sufficient; I would go further and say that it is totally inadequate for the important objectives that are involved.
There are, of course, other organisations whose interests should be noted, and they have already been mentioned by a Member of your Lordships' House this afternoon. I refer, first of all, to

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E.S.R.O.—the European Space Research Organisation—in which our scientists are much interested and which has their wholehearted blessing. It is a proposed organisation which already has a preparatory commission involving, as has been said, twelve European countries, and which is due to report in early 1962. Then there is E.L.D.O., again which has been mentioned, the European Launcher Development Organisation, which is, as I understand it, a proposal of much less scientific interest, and in which the Royal Society does not feel particularly concerned. I wish to emphasise the point—and I regard this as a very important one—that Britain's efforts for further research are dependent upon agreements with the United States and on prospective agreements with certain European Governments, as I have just indicated. With those conditions very much in mind, I would invite the Minister for Science to consider whether organisational arrangements within the Government are adequate to meet these not inconsiderable Governmental responsibilities, both present and prospective. It is these organisational arrangements within the Government that some of us have very much in mind.
What, then, is being done in this country to set out our operations in space research? This has been done in a report by the British National Committee on Space Research to the corresponding international body which met in Florence in April of last year. This Committee, that is, the British National Committee, reports to the Royal Society and advises the Minister, through the Steering Group for Space Research. The cost of much of the work is carried by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. I would submit to the Minister for Science that space research, in the conventionally accepted definition of that term, would benefit if it could have a review by him of the general organisation through which he hopes to make progress with this important subject. Such consideration would, I hope, give us an organisation which would be more capable of keeping the many aspects of this important subject in better relation to one another than I fear they are to-day.
I have mentioned some aspects of scientific work which are involved at the present time in space research, and,
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arising from those considerations, our questionings naturally turn to the possibility of these researches finding some applications which would make an impact on the lives of the ordinary citizens of this country. Frequent mention has already been made this afternoon of communications, and I shall be interested to hear what the Minister has to say on that subject. I have made it perfectly clear that I have no expert knowledge which makes any suggestions from me appropriate to that end. But we know of the general trend of this matter, and that is that it is hoped to use satellites for re-radiating the waves for purposes of communication. The waves can be retransmitted from satellites.
I would ask the Minister whether he could tell us something specific that has been achieved in these matters. We know it in general terms, but we should like some more specific information. I believe this possibility to be of great interest to the Post Office people but, so far as I am aware, practically no specific information has been made public. if such information has already been given, I apologise to the Minister and plead the weakness of an individual to absorb all important information made available from time to time. But the question of communications is an important one, and if substantial progress is being made, that is a material factor in the formulation of a consistent policy for space research. I would hope that the Minister will agree that, as a first step, this House could rightly expect some specific information on the factual position. Dependent, of course, on the nature of the facts disclosed, the matter might require to be again brought to the notice of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy. It is my definite feeling that the House is indebted to the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, who introduced this Motion, and our thanks are due to him.
5.7 p.m.
LORD WALERAN: My Lords, like other noble Lords who have spoken before me and my noble friend who introduced this important debate, I have an interest to declare in that I am a director of an electronics company. It is not concerned at the moment with anything to do with space research, but,

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of course, as the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, has said, if you are mixed up in electronic work anything may happen. One is always optimistic in this matter. The next thing I have to say is that I find it a formidable task to speak this evening after so many of your Lordships have spoken who are so eminent in the scientific world, and it is with a feeling of great humbleness that I venture to take up a few moments of your Lordships' time.
I suggest that the exploration of space will bring not only advances in basic scientific knowledge, but also a tremendous impetus to engineering. I find it a little difficult to go all the way with the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, in this matter because sometimes there are intangibles, and with the best will in the world we try to look through the glass darkly. It is not given to everyone to be a Jules Verne, and things come out to-day, or will be apparent in the days of our grandchildren, which I believe we here cannot see. I believe that the effects of research in space will be felt in many fields, not all of them vital to space itself, but some of them in directions which have already been mentioned, like metallurgy, control engineering, electronics and fuel, whether it is in a solid or liquid state or, as was mentioned by my noble friend Lord Caldecote, in the way of electrical energy. I think one had better call it advances in energy.
I believe that no country is likely to reap timely benefits from this stimulus unless it is actively engaged in space research, and this, I believe, is the practical issue behind E.L.D.O. I in no way belittle the importance of the civil aspect of the space research programme. Indeed, I think it is vital to the technological advances of our country. I submit to your Lordships that there is another equally important aspect which I think it is right and proper to mention to-day, and that is the importance of space to our national security. Both America and Russia are devoting vast resources towards space research. I do not believe that this is due solely to the pursuit of prestige, the quest of technological advancement, but it must surely reflect their conviction that whoever has control of space stands to gain
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military dividends of the utmost importance.
Some of these military dividends, my Lords, I think one can foresee. Already the Americans have satellites in orbit. The first one, I think, was called Tiros, which produced meteorological information which can be of the greatest benefit in long-term weather forecasting, which is particularly important to us in these Islands, where we sit, placed geographically, where various air masses meet, and we never know which wind is going to get here first or which goes back when you think it is coming. The second satellite, I think, is called Midas which gives early warning of ballistic missiles. Then they have reconnaissance satellites, Samos, and a navigational satellite called Transit. I believe in the course of the next year they will launch several types of communication satellites. These are fields of fundamental military importance in which we are at present limited by the problems of distance, weather or reliablity; and by reliability I refer to the effect of sunspot activity on radio communication. Satellites can, and will soon, remove these limits.
But surely, my Lords, this is only the first step in the military use of space. Already the basic techniques exist for making satellites carry offensive weapons or men. The military advantages of manned space aircraft may be difficult to see at this moment, but they will be found, I have no doubt about it—I do not quite agree with the noble Lord, Lord Fleck, on this point—if only for the reason that man is much more versatile than a computor. The problem here is to enable a man to sustain his life and develop his full mental powers while he is in space, but research is progressing so fast that I think this problem may well be solved within the next few years. I believe it is vital to the security of this country that we should at least have a thorough appreciation of the military possibilities of space. At the least we must know what is going on above us in the air space, because we may, in due course, have to intervene if we are to continue as a world Power or even continue to exist.
I think that the House will agree that it is clear we have not the money or the scientific resources to compete with the United States or Russia over the whole

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field of space research, but I believe that unless we start to play a practical part in military space development we shall never gain a proper insight into its possibilities, let alone be able to start to make our national contribution to the Western military space programme. Progress in space is going ahead at a rate which confounds the predictions of the past few years. I submit to you, my Lords, that we have already wasted valuable time and I suggest that we cannot afford to wait any longer in establishing a firm military space programme,
I do not think that we have to seek very far for projects which are both urgent and within our capabilities. First it is predicted that in about five years' time we shall be entering a period of intense sunspot activity, when long-range radio commitments will become highly unreliable. In view of our world-wide civil and military interests, should we not now be making every effort to introduce a satellite communication system in time to meet this emergency?
Secondly, the number of objects in space is increasing rapidly and by the end of the decade thousands may be in orbit, some of which will remain there over a number of years. If we are ever to contemplate a defence from attacks from space, should we not start now keeping track of the objects in space before the picture becomes too confused? I think we should and I hope your Lordships will agree with me. Because our resources and our practical experience are limited I do not think it would be sensible for us to start from scratch on an independent programme in these fields. Rather, we should seek collaboration with other countries on military projects as we are seeking to do in the E.L.D.O. programme. The tracking and cataloguing of objects in space seems to me to be one obvious field for such co-operation. Beyond, this, I think that we could deal with all those things which the state of our knowledge and skill enables us to tackle, such as some important aspect of a project or to make some special contribution to basic technology.
I hope that the consideration now being given to our space research programme by Her Majesty's Government will recognise and give full weight to the
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military aspect, as I do not believe that this can be solely achieved as a by-product of E.L.D.O. I believe it demands the attention of a Services Ministry and the support of a research programme directed to military ends; and I suggest that the Royal Air Force would seem the Service best fitted by role and technological experience to be charged with this responsibility. I make no apologies, my Lords, for mentioning the Royal Air Force, in which I had the honour to serve throughout the best part of the War, but it seems to me to be the logical Service. After all, it has been responsible for the defence of the air space over our heads and has had to go up, looking after that defence, higher and higher as the operational altitude of the weapons which have been used against us continues to rise; and I say again that it is logical that they should still continue that job.
In conclusion, I should like to finish my remarks by asking Her Majesty's Government and my noble and learned friend, to whom I have given prior but very short notice, three questions. First, do Her Majesty's Government recognise both the importance and urgency of a military space programme? Secondly, recognising the limits of our resources and background knowledge, will Her Majesty's Government seek every opportunity of promoting and collaborating with the West in a joint military space programme, both long-term and short-term? Thirdly, and lastly, will Her Majesty's Government immediately put in hand a military communications satellite to give us our first footing in space and to ensure reliable communications during the next period of sunspot activity?
5.20 p.m.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I am sure we had all been looking forward to a speech from the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, winding up the debate from the other side of the House, but he has sent me a message that he is sent for to attend a Member of your Lordships' House who has been taken unwell. I should like to say how very sorry we are to miss the pleasure of hearing him, and I send my best wishes to the Member of your Lordships' House who is not well.

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I think this is the first occasion upon which the institution of which we are all Members has ever debated space research, and indeed it may well be the first occasion upon which any Parliamentary institution has really given the kind of attention to it that we have been giving to it this afternoon. Certainly it has been a vastly superior debate, if I may say so without offence to anybody, to the rather peculiar and short discussion which took place on the adjournment in another place some months ago. I should like to thank my noble friend Lord Bessborough for having introduced to us this fascinating topic. I have told him that some, at any rate, of the questions which he raised cannot be answered this afternoon, since they depend so intimately upon the delicate stage now reached in the negotiation for what we have now come to call E.L.D.O. in the course of this afternoon's discussions, and quite obviously the direction which our plans will take will very largely depend upon the future of those negotiations.
The same, I think, must be said of the specific question which the noble Lord, Lord Fleck, put to me with regard to the organisation, which he found insufficient. Perhaps he would take it from me—and before I really begin this interim answer—that the present organisation was devised by me, I think just over two years ago when we started our Scout satellite programme, to which I shall come in the course of my remarks. It was quite manifest then that I had to do something which was constitutionally acceptable to put the rather modest expenditure then contemplated upon a proper Vote, and I then adopted the device—I think the perfectly appropriate device—of putting it upon the D.S.I.R. Vote, but leaving the real responsibility under the Government, through me, in the hands of the Steering Group. I do not think this is a permanent arrangement which could prove satisfactory to anybody, but I believe that at any rate until the shape of our programme is better seen the organisation, which has worked amicably so far, should be allowed to continue. But I recognise at once that, so far as I am concerned, this was an interim device and not one which would bear the scrutiny of a permanent arrangement. I would also
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say to my noble friend Lord Waleran, who has just asked me three questions, that I will write to him about the military questions which he has put, since they go a little outside the orbit of the other speeches, and also I should like to have more time to reflect upon what it would be proper for me to say in answer to them.
Before I embark upon the main part of my speech I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, opposite, for his kindly reference to the imagination and drive of my right honourable friend the Minister of Aviation, to whose abilities the relative success of our negotiation in the E.L.D.O. project is very largely due. But, my Lords, what I should wish to do this afternoon is the more humdrum, and I am afraid rather lengthy, task of clearing the air a little by giving the House what I might call some of the facts of life concerningspace research itself and by clarifying some of the issues which we have got, either now or in the future, to solve. I am afraid that even if I do this conscientiously my speech will be a little longer than I would have sought to make it ideally.
First of all, the term itself, "space research", is, I should have thought, somewhat unfortunate and even misleading, since it covers quite a number of distinct activities motivated by quite different reasons, and may therefore mean, and evidently does mean, quite different things to different people. To some it means physics. To others astronomy. To others again, rockets. To others weather forecasts, andto others again, military projects of one sort or another. To othersagain, communications satellites; and to a more numerous but less scientifically-minded public it spells Dan Dare or Jeff Hawke or MajorGagarin. Therefore, this drives me to begin at the beginning.
Until the last war the only way, broadly speaking, in which man could learn what goes on outside the atmosphere was by observation of the heavenly bodies by natural vision or by optical telescope and by mathematical or logical inference from these observations and experiments. Since the war two new fields have been opened up, radio astronomy and rockets. I do not myself propose to speak very much of radio astronomy this

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afternoon, but I was particularly glad that the noble Lord, Lord Fleck, and others mentioned it. I should be wrong not to mention it too, since it is a field, as the noble Lord, Lord Fleck, reminded us, in which, at least for the time being, Britain is as relatively pre-eminent as Russia and America are in the field of rockets. We have, as the noble Lord, Lord Fleck, put it, a commanding position. That this is so is due to the genius of a few British scientists, among whom Sir Bernard Lovell and Professor Ryle have been rightly mentioned by the noble Lord.
Part of the significance of radio astronomy has been the power which it gives us of exploring not merely the solar system but the remotest confines of outer space by means of the reception of radio waves. The importance of these studies to our knowledge of the universe itself has recently been given wide publicity. It is important to remember that these extremely distant signals—some I believe come from as far distant as 7,000 million light years away—come from regions which we shall never be able to reach by any other means. Great praise, therefore, is due to British scientists whose work has opened these distant scenes. As the noble Lord, Lord Fleck, reminded us, another among many uses of radio astronomy is the value of some radio telescopes, including, notably that of Jodrell Bank, in tracking satellites. In this connection, of course, radio astronomy is used as an adjunct to the other branches of space research about which most of the discussion this afternoon has centred.
This, therefore, brings me to the main field. Since the V2's at the end of the war, men have developed rockets which have enabled them to put objects into outer space, and this has been done for quite a variety of reasons, both military and civil. To-day, as I said, I shall deal primarily with the civilian field, although some of the applications are, or may become, commercial and thus are not strictly space research, and others may certainly possess a military significance. The simplest kind of vehicle used in this connection, as the noble Lord reminded us, is the vertical sounding rocket. Its function is to put instruments into the upper atmosphere or space for effecting scientific observation
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and experiment, and then they fall back to earth without escaping from the earth's gravity. Nowadays, we do not read so much of these in the newspapers, but they do, in fact, provide much of the bread and butter of space research. A good example is the British Skylark. This is capable of carrying a payload of 150 lb. to an altitude of between 100 and 175 miles. For a number of years now British scientists have been using these rockets for experimental firings from Woomera in co-operation with the Australian Government, to whose help in this matter and in other matters I shall be coming, but to whom I should like to draw aside for a moment to pay tribute.
The current programme this year alone will extend to between 15 and 20 firings of the Skylark rocket. Ten will carry experiments selected under the agis of the Royal Society from proposals made by research workers in universities and Government Departments. They will dealwith all aspects of the physics of the upper atmosphere and studies of the sun and stars. Six will be simple rounds carrying grenades for meteorological observations under a Royal Society programme. The university experiments are financed by grants from the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. The manufacture of the rockets has been undertaken by the Ministry of Aviation. The launching and collecting of data is a joint Anglo-Australian responsibility. The current programme of Skylark firings is probably in excess of anything being carried out outside the United States and the Soviet Union. Ithas been planned to achieve a high proportion of successful experiments and could not be expanded at present without sacrificing the careful preparation of each shot which is essential for success.
I think I can claim that this British programme of sounding rockets has already produced important information about the atmosphere and the ionosphere, and has had direct effects upon important areas of applied science—for instance, in the fields of radio research and meteorology. I should emphasise that there has been no duplication of effort and the information obtained in this way could not have been obtained in any other. Again I must emphasise

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that there is ample scope in this field for further significant contributions for many years to come. Incidentally, the instrumentation programmes provide indispensable training for our scientific teams in space research technology. The cost of the rockets for this programme in this year is of the order of £200,000.
When we leave the vertical sounding rocket experiments we enter a field in which rockets, liquid or solid fuelled, single or multi-stage, are used to project objects at speeds which take them outside the power of the gravitational pull of the earth. Some, the satellites, are projected into orbit round the earth. Others, like Pioneer V, can be projected into orbit round the sun. Others, like the Russian and American ventures in this field, are aimed at the moon or the planets, in which case they are called lunar or planetary probes. In the main, these objects carry instruments, but the House is of course aware—indeed they have been mentioned this afternoon—of the American and Russian sounding and satellite experiments with men and living animals. Whatever may be the significance of these for the future, it is right that I should at the outset agree with the noble Lord, Lord Fleck, and with others of your Lordships who have taken part in this debate, and indeed with our own scientific advice, that, at present at least, the more valuable scientific information from these rocket experiments is likely to come from satellites carrying instruments rather than from satellites carrying human beings. Perhaps this is fortunate, as I shall go on to explain why it is quite out of the question that we should be in a position to fire a rocket carrying human beings at the present time.
It is important to emphasise—I think we should bear this in mind at the base of all our thinking on the subject—that only the United States and the Soviet Union at present possess fully developed rockets capable of flying satellites. No one else can do it. No one else can fly artificial planets, or lunar or planetary probes. We sometimes need to remind ourselves, when we discuss our own future programme, that the reason for this is not the scientific backwardness of the rest of the world at all, but the fact that only the United States of
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America and the Soviet Union have thought it desirable to complete the development of rockets for military purposes with nuclear warheads, and that though they have subsequently made adaptations of these for peaceful purposes, it is quite clear that, apart from their military origin, these big rockets would probably not have come into existence in our time at all.
This is no place to enumerate the various systems based on rockets which originally were conceived as intermediate range ballistic missiles and intercontinental ballistic missiles. At this point I feel that I ought to describe our own British Blue Streak rocket—in origin an intermediate range ballistic missile (because the advice we have received has shown that we do not need and never have needed an intercontinental ballistic missile) whose military rôle has now been abandoned. It is a liquid-fuelled rocket capable, with appropriate second and third stages, of putting into orbit a payload of (I use round figures) 1,500 lb. at say 200 to 300 miles orbit, or an appropriately reduced payload, say 150 lb., at a vastly increased orbit, say of 100,000 miles. This rocket has not yet flown. It has cost about £70 million to develop, and it would cost between £50 and £70 million, depending on the nature of the second stage, to develop it into a second satellite launcher.
I say no more about it at this stage of the argument, but I ask, although I, at this stage at any rate, deliberately refrain from answering, two questions. First, the original object of all rockets was primarily military. The peaceful results are therefore by-products or, as they have been called in this debate, fringe benefits. Can a nation or a group of nations develop a launcher for peaceful purposes competing with the products of the military Powers, bearing in mind that the Americans, whose figures are available—the Russian figures are not really available—are spending on rockets alone something like the sum we are spending in every department of defence put together, something of the order, therefore, of £1,600 million a year? Secondly, I ask: unless we develop Blue Streak—I say Blue Streak specifically—either co-operatively or on our own, there will be virtually no

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advanced rocket technology either on this side of the Atlantic or on this side of the Iron Curtain. Is this a healthy situation? Is it ultimately a tolerable situation?
These are questions which I think all European countries, and not merely ourselves, should ponder when they consider, as they are doing now, the future of Blue Streak. Is Europe to become a technological backwater in this advanced sphere? I must, however, emphasise that in no circumstances that I am aware of will Blue Streak fly a man into space. This would require a payload of something like four tons, and a much bigger rocket than Blue Streak would be required. I do not know how much it would cost to develop one; but if I were to say that it would be something of the order of £1,000 million I do not think I should be far out.
I mention this figure because I notice that in a newspaper this morning my Parliamentary Secretary was criticised for saying that we had no plans to put a man into space. The noble Lord, Lord Fleck, and other noble Lords all dealt with the scientific argument. I do not mind either my Parliamentary Secretary or me or the Government being criticised, but anyone who wants to criticise this programme of proposals must tell us quite plainly that he wants us to spend something of the order of £1,000 million to develop a rocket which, by the time it flies, will probably be behind the then developments of American and Russian rockets. It may be that this is a desirable course of action for this country to pursue. If it is, the country will say so and the country will get what it asks for. But I am bound to say that I agree at the moment with the view taken by other noble Lords, that anybody who understands this question will say that this is not a rational course of action to pursue. At any rate, let us get it out of our minds that any modification of Blue Streak that we can think of is likely to do the job.
Now, my Lords, I should next mention the first British satellite experiments. These were authorised by the Cabinet in 1959.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I hope the noble Viscount will forgive me if I interrupt him, because he is now leaving
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Blue Streak. He said that it had not been flown. Can he say when it will be ready to be flown?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I do not think it would take long. I should not like to give an exact figure for it. I have seen the thing fired from a static launcher, and very impressive it was. They tethered it to a post because it was being fired at Spadeadam and not at Woomera.
My Lords, I should now like to turn, if I may, to the first British satellite experiments, which were authorised by the Cabinet in 1959 and which I am now hoping will shortly come to fruition. We call this the Scout programme, from the name of the American rocket by which they were originally to be launched. The first is now likely to be launched by another vehicle, the Delta rocket, which is more powerful and is said to be more reliable. This is a three-stage liquid-fuelled rocket. The satellite will be loaded with instruments designed by British scientists and paid for by us. However, they will be launched at no cost to ourselves. They are an essential preliminary to any more ambitious British space programme with satellites, because we must, after all, learn to walk before we can run. The launching of the first satellite provided under these arrangements is scheduled for next Spring. Work on two more satellites is well advanced. In spite of the difficulties of co-operation in precise design by teams of scientists and engineers, 3,000 miles apart, the work has proceeded with, I think, notable success. It is flattering to be told by the Americans that they regard the payload of our first joint satellite as one of the most sophisticated within their experience.
The experiments on the Scout programme, as I think it is still convenient to call it, are now being financed by D.S.I.R. grants at an annual rate of about £160,000, on the advice of the Royal Society. Substantial sums are also being spent on similar experimental work within Government research establishments, particularly the RadioResearch station.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Viscount has finished with the Scout programme. Do I understand that the Americans are

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in fact giving us the rockets, in the sense that we are not paying for them? Presumably they cannot be used more than once, and they are paying for them.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: The phrase, I am told, is that there is no billing on either side, and I think that both we and they gain from the joint experiments. But the work is shared and the cost is shared, according to who does the work. The experiment is ours, the rocket is theirs. Also, of course, there is the more complicated question of assessing the way in which you, first of all, make your satellite and then fit your satellite into the rocket.
LORD SHACKLETON: The main point is the launcher. The rocket is probably ten times more costly.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Well, my Lords, I think it is. I thought it had been rather a good business, I must say, and I should like to give my tribute and praise to the generosity of our American friends. But it would not necessarily alter my judgment as to the desirability of having a larger rocket available on this side of the Atlantic, for reasons which I gave in an interrogative form.
My Lords, before I leave this subject, I think I ought briefly to describe the two more recent and, incidentally, more ambitious ventures which noble Lords have referred to, under the names of E.S.R.O. and E.L.D.O. They are both projects to which Her Majesty's Government is giving full support. They are both essays in the art of European co-operation as well as of space research. First of all, E.S.R.O. A year ago Britain and ten other European countries agreed to set up a Preparatory Commission to study the constitution and functions of a possible space research organisation. Its purpose would be to co-ordinate scientific experiments in space by European scientists and to make joint use of satellites, sounding rockets and other appropriate devices. So far, the discussions proceed without commitment to join any eventual organisation.
The Commission will, we hope, shortly be in a position to present its recommendations. They are expected to stem from an eight-year programme which will include the firing of sounding rockets from a range to be developed
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in Europe, the design and construction of payloads for rockets and satellites, and the launching of these satellites by means of an appropriate launcher, which for this purpose is assumed to be that of the proposed E.L.D.O. organisation which I am about to describe. If E.S.R.O. is established, it will provide the framework for scientific co-operation, giving our scientists access to experimental opportunities far beyond any which could be provided by national or by bilateral arrangements. It will also constitute a major venture in co-operative technology which will have beneficial effects on the development of advanced techniques in industry in all the countries concerned.
My Lords, I now come to the second proposed organisation. E.L.D.O.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, before the noble Viscount leaves E.S.R.O., could he say how much it is likely that E.S.R.O. will spend in the United Kingdom during this eight-year programme?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords,I think I had better deal with the question of the cost of our total programme at a later stage in my speech, if I may do so. I am not sure that I can give a specific answer to the question of how much of a programme not yet promulgated is likely to be spent in the United Kingdom, if the proposed participants agree to participate.
The second proposed organisation E.L.D.O., which is quite distinct from the first one, E.S.R.O., centres around the future of Blue Streak. Our policy here is, in co-operation with other European countries and Australia, to develop a launcher for heavy satellites. At a conference in Strasbourg at the beginning of this year, the British and French Governments put forward detailed proposals, and at a further conference in London in October a draft convention was prepared for the establishment of the organisation. The convention is now being considered by the various Governments which it is hoped will participate.
The proposals provide for an initial programme of about £70 million to be spent over five years for the development and construction of a launcher using Blue Streak as the first stage, a French

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rocket, probably Véronique, as the second, and a third stage to be developed under the leadership of Germany as part of the initial programme. The organisation will also develop a series of satellite test vehicles to prove the launching system. Studies will also be carried out concurrently with the initial programme, to formulate proposals for developing an advanced launcher which might be undertaken by the organisation in a subsequent programme. All members of the organisation will be given an opportunity to participate fully in the scientific and technical work, and, of course, information will be freely exchanged. Thus the project will afford a means of educating and training technical staff in new and important technologies, and this will in turn bring economic and commercial advantages in its train.
It is believed that the development of the first launcher should be completed in time to meet the requirements of E.S.R.O. in carrying out those parts of its programme which require heavy satellites. Clearly, it will be of great advantage for Europe to have its own launcher for this decisive phase of its space research programme, instead of having to depend on obtaining heavy rockets elsewhere. Of course, it would also be possible to use the E.L.D.O. launcher once it is developed for communications and other peaceful purposes.
This brings me to the complicated and fascinating question, which has been raised by numerous noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Kindersley, of communications satellites—recognising that I have now left the realm of space research altogether, and have begun to speculate on the future of telephony, telegraphy, and it may be wireless and television—between nations on the face of this planet. Again, I would emphasise that what I have to say is limited to the civilian sphere.
Hitherto such communications have been directly operated from ground stations in the countries of origin and reception. But it is now established, I think, that, in theory at least, it would be possible to utilise satellites in place of cables and direct communication, and that a system of, say, twelve or sixteen satellites in permanent or semi-permanent orbit would give a world coverage. Such satellites could, in theory, operate
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passively by reflecting signals from the ground, but they are more likely to be used semi-actively by boosting them, or actively by re-broadcasting them.
In principle, as many of my noble friends have said during the course of the debate, such a system would have many advantages, including an almost unlimited number of available channels. The cost would be high. The life of the satellite is uncertain; and whether, if it succeeds, the system will complement or replace the new and expensive cables which are even now being laid, is not known. The 64,000 dollar question, which I think was posed by my noble friend Lord Caldecote, is: how many such systems, whether one system or more than one system, the traffic is likely to bear, and what degree of international co-operation is necessary or desirable for the purpose of completing the system? My Lords, I think it would be better if I did not enter far into this highly complex and speculative field at this stage of the debate. Clearly, as my noble friend Lord Kindersley said, a successful competitor for providing the launcher for a successful system would make a lot of money. Clearly, also, I feel it necessary to say in contradistinction, the losses of an unsuccessful competitor who had developed a launcher for the purposes of a system which was not adopted—or, still worse, the successful competitor for an unsuccessful system—would be astronomical. This is clearly a case in which it would be unwise to count one's chickens before they hatch. I had better confine myself to describing the actual state of play.
My noble friend Lord Bessborough made interesting reference to the British Space Development Company, and I know that my right honourable friend the Postmaster General, who is departmentally responsible for the communication satellite programme, will be greatly interested in what he had to say. The experts all seem to be agreed as to its technical feasibility, and they also agree that if a commercial system can be put into operation it will enormously increase the capacity available for handling the ever-growing volume of international traffic, including, as some noble Lords have pointed out, television. So much, I think, is common

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ground, and we hope to learn more—and perhaps this will help to answer the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Fleck—froma series of experimental tests which will take place next year in co-operation with the Americans. But there is not yet the same measure of agreement about the commercial prospects.
In parallel with the studies made by the British Space Development Company, studies of a possible design have been made jointly by the Post Office and the Ministry of Aviation. I am not myself familiar with the details of them, but on two points at any rate I must say that there is, at first sight, a very wide difference between the Company's conclusions and those of the Post Office. It is, perhaps, natural that the Post Office should take a more cautious view, and the assessment of some of the elements that enter into a commercial assessment of satellite communications must be matters of opinion. But there is no doubt that a wide difference does exist. I understand that the Company's estimates of the cost for establishing a system are less than half the estimates made by the Post Office, and the Company assume a much faster rate of growth. For these reasons the Post Office consider that they must look forward to a date considerably later than that estimated by the Company as the date by which a satellite communication system could begin to pay. Much, of course, must depend upon the arrangements made with the Americans, who are bound, as I see it, in the light of what I have just been saying, to be the first to have such a system in being. I hope I have said enough to show my interest in these possible developments.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, might I just interrupt the noble Viscount? He has just made, I think, a rather serious statement, which I hope I did not misunderstand. Do I understand that the British Post Office are wholly waiting on the Americans before they consider whether they themselves could participate in some European or British programme? This has been a matter which has given rise to a good deal of alarm already, and was partly responsible for the development of a private
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enterprise activity in this field because the Post Office were not themselves prepared to take any initiative or do any real work on it.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I do not think I said that at all, and I certainly did not intend to convey that impression. I did say that, in conjunction with the Americans, we were conducting next year a number of trans-Atlantic experiments which would yield very valuable data, or so we hope. I also said that, for the reasons which I have endeavoured to explain, the American expenditure on rockets generally, and therefore on a launching system, must necessarily be to a very large extent in advance of our own. I also said—and I hope to make this plain—that our own launching system, if there is one, must largely depend on the future of Blue Streak, and that this would obviously be one of the activities which would be undertaken by the proposed European Launcher Development Organisation, which I was endeavouring to describe, but that it would be inappropriate for me this evening to deal with that in view of the stage which the negotiations have reached.
My Lords, I hope I have said enough to show my interest, but I would add this: the British Space Development Company, I understand, have sent to my right honourable friend the Postmaster General a copy of a report setting out their proposals. This report is being examined in detail, and I believe that my right honourable friend will shortly he having a discussion with the Company about it. Perhaps I might therefore leave this interesting topic there.
This brings me back to the main issues debated this afternoon. What,after all, is the reason for space research, if we are to use the term? On what scale, and on what principles, ought we to embark upon it? Are there not more interesting and valuable things to do with our money? These, of course, were questions raised from the Cross Benches in a remarkable speech, I think, by my noble friend Lord Halsbury, who enumerated a number of scientific projects of at least equal importance, and from another point of view by the right reverend Prelate, the Lord Bishop of St. Albans, who reminded us that there

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were a number of things to do on earth which it may be were of a very high obligation on us to undertake.
I am going to try now, if I may, to answer some of these questions, if not in detail, at any rate in principle. First, I would say that we are not in a position to ignore space research unless we are willing to opt out wholly of some of the most exciting developments in physics, astronomy and the earth sciences, and engineering and technology. Space research, to use the term, is necessary to astronomy since, for the first time, men can place instruments outside the atmosphere to observe the sun, the moon, the planets, the stars and cosmic radiation of all sorts. Secondly, it is necessary to the earth sciences. For the first time it is possible to use instruments in space to photograph, to measure and to inspect the earth, its magnetic field and its atmosphere, from the outside. It is necessary for solar physics—the study of the sun, where new information is constantly coming on the streams of particles emitted from it.
My Lords, it is of immense importance, as has been pointed out, I think, by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, certainly by my noble friend Lord Caldecote, to the future of engineering, to which the problems of miniaturisation, guidance, metallurgy, design and maintenance-free operation present a new, exciting and, I would say, almost unlimited challenge. It is useful in biology even, since living tissue can be subjected to new conditions, and thus more can be learned of its nature. It might even be possible to discover if some form of life can exist, and even so, in what form, in environments different from the earth itself.
My Lords, what the ultimate uses of space research will in the end turn out to be, I will not try to speculate. The answers can be measured only in terms of the insatiable curiosity of man's questing spirit of investigation. The point (and I must make it in these terms) is that we can no more avoid space research in some sense, and on some scale, than the early sixteenth and seventeenth century natural philosophers could avoid, in their time, the use of the telescope and the microscope, which for the first time opened new horizons beyond the limits of ordinary
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natural human vision. I would say that I prefer the analogies of the early astronomers—Galileo, Kepler and others—to those of Vasco da Gama and Columbus, since more than one noble Lord has pointed out aspects of the matter in which the analogy in those other cases fails.
This brings me back to the facts of life, to the humdrum realities of economics and politics. What can we afford? For what purposes? And with what organisation, as the noble Lord, Lord Fleck, asked? What is the best balanced use for our money, our men, and our materials, all of which—not only the money—are in what is called short supply, remembering, as we have to, the immense calls on our resources and the immense human need for other types of expenditure and investment? Hitherto the question, on the whole, has been an easy one for us to answer. We have been learning to walk before we can run. Therefore, our programme has been modest one, and I hope that the modest nature of the programme which I have already outlined will reassure those who feel some doubts as to whether we are likely to commit ourselves to astronomical sums, and so distort our economy.
My Lords, the first point to note in regard to what I have been saying, apart from the modest size of our present expenditure, is that not one but all of our activities are, to some extent, international in character. This is not fortuitous; it is deliberate. I am convinced myself that it is desirable, and I am also convinced that, whether fortuitous or not, sooner or later it would become inevitable. From the figures I have given, I think it is manifest that, whatever may be the position now in 1961, space research, as it is going to develop, if it goes on according to present indications, cannot be economically carried on by one country alone, not even, I would say, by America or Russia, still less by ourselves, alone. My Lords, it would have been agreeable no doubt to have contemplated progress on a Commonwealth basis alone. But I am bound to say that, apart from our co-operation with Australia, and, as my noble friend Lord Bessborough pointed out, with Canada, it would be in fact unrealistic to talk In those terms.

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We are left with four possibilities, and all of them merit consideration. We can co-operate on a world basis; we can co-operate on a European basis; we can co-operate on an Anglo-American basis; and we can go it alone with Australia, and perhaps with Canada, most of whose programme is conducted on an American-Canadian basis. The pattern of the future may well include all four types of activity. But my duty is, I think, to point out that none by itself will meet the case. If we were to confine ourselves to going it alone with Australia and Canada, a possibility which, in certain circumstances, we cannot rule out, we should do so in the knowledge that in all probability we should have to drop out of any development requiring rockets more advanced than Blue Streak.
My Lords, there are, of course, attractions, which have been referred to this afternoon, from an ideological point of view in world co-operation in space research. I should be interested to hear what ideas my noble friend Lord Bessborough may bring back from Russia, and may I offer him my very best of good wishes for the journey which I understand he proposes to make there. Personally I hope and believe that we may come to this view. But it involves the whole question of American and Russian relations, since they are the owners of the only big launchers; and it involves, I am sorry to say, the rather dispiriting story of relations between our own country and the Communist bloc countries in various spheres, such as I.A.E.A. in Vienna, where at first sight co-operation seemed possible and desirable and unconnected with politics, but has so far in almost every case proved disappointing in practice.
Then we come to Anglo-American co-operation. This is already the basis of our present Scout programme, and I myself look forward to other examples of the same type in the future. But in so far as it involves exclusively the use of American launchers, personally I should be reluctant to accept without a struggle a situation in which the art of rocketry on a large scale was entirely confined to the Communist bloc and the New World.
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We therefore come to Europe, for some purposes, both scientifically and politically, by very much the best option, provided, of course, that we can combine this honourably with our co-operation with the Australians at Woomera, and do not thereby exclude ourselves or others from the wider vision. It is for this reason that we have gone a long way, especially with France, in supporting the proposals in E.S.R.O. and E.L.D.O. which I have described. If we can achieve this, European co-operation combines several solid advantages. It enables us to co-operate with European countries in a field not already hopelessly confused with previously adopted attitudes, political issues, and even emotional undercurrents. We should preserve and develop thereby an advanced large rocket on this side of the Iron Curtain. We should be co-operating with countries who are in the same class economically, scientifically, technologically and politically. At any rate, that is the direction in which we have taken certain steps.
Now may I mention the question of expense? On our scientific space research programme identifiable Government expenditure now amounts to about £550,000 a year. This will increase, perhaps, more than tenfold over about ten years, to a level which must depend on whether E.S.R.O. comes into being and is on the scale now being studied by the preparatory commission. This possible level of expenditure is, or at any rate becomes, high, but it is important to note the main considerations which support it. First, there is no element in it of "man in space" and only projects justified by their scientific merits are proposed. Secondly, apart from our desire, for technological and commercial reasons, to develop European launchers, we are deliberately seeking to avoid duplication of scientific programmes of other countries.
Thirdly, British scientists have for centuries played a prominent part in extending the knowledge of the earth, its atmosphere, and the universe in which we live. They have the skill and the desire to continue to play an honourable part. We should not, I think, deny them adequate resources with which to do so. Lastly, this country depends for its standard of living on the practical application of the most advanced knowledge

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and techniques, and, because research facilities are now so complicated and costly as to be beyond the means of individual institutions, finance must come, at least in reasonable measure, from Government sources, if it is to be done at all. It can be argued, therefore, that what we are doing is an essential investment for the future of the nation.
My Lords, in all of this complicated skein of argument and counter-argument, I myself have sought to follow one guiding light, which was, if I mistake not, contained in the original Report to me of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy, in which the noble Lord, Lord Fleck, played some part, when the Government authorised the original Scout satellite programme more than two years ago. My guiding light has been to stick to decisions which can be justified as scientifically correct. This has not always been easy. There are many Dan Dares among our adult population who look upon the thing principally as a form of international sporting contest for the sake of prestige. Other countries, with military axes to grind, and vastly larger national incomes, can afford programmes immediately motivated by a desire for national prestige rather than scientific achievement. I do not think that we can do this and, if we could, I do not think I could recommend it to Parliament.
I believe, with the A.C.S.P., that the real path to international prestige in the scientific field is the adult path of pursuing what is scientifically, or technologically worth while, and worth while in the context of this country's situation, and not in the situation of some other country. If, in the course of this policy, we hit the headlines of the popular Press, so much the better, since the effect of our doing so will be to attract interest in our genuine scientific achievement. But, if we do not, we shall not remedy any shortcomings or imbalance of our scientific programme by hitting the headlines of the popular Press. Our space
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programme, and our other scientific expenditure will be expensive enough without frittering away our resources on playing to the gallery. It is in this perhaps somewhat austere mood of scientific integrity, which is at the same time one of idealism and imagination, that I welcome discussion of the Motion which has been moved by my noble friend.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, after such an admirably complete survey of the problems which we have been discussing, your Lordships will not wish me to remain on my feet for more than a few seconds. I wondered why I had had the temerity to put this subject before your Lordships. I was encouraged by my noble friend Lord Halsbury to continue to do so, although I realised that everyone else who was to speak had a wiser head than I. It has been interesting to me to find that the majority of speakers this afternoon do not oppose the idea of space communication by satellite. It is supported by the noble Lords, Lord Shackleton, Lord Caldecote, Lord Kindersley and Lord Waleran, and I do not think that my noble friend Lord Halsbury opposed it on any fundamental grounds. other than the economic one; the right reverend Prelate, I am afraid, stands rather alone in this respect.
I have watched two count-downs at Cape Canaveral and at Spadeadam, and now I expect to be setting out to meet space scientists in the Soviet Union as well as visiting Woomera, I hope, early in the New Year. Clearly, therefore, I am convinced that this has become a really urgent matter and that we have to go into this business even further than we have so far. I would say that this has been a highly satisfactory and fascinating debate, but I propose now that we should go out of orbit and re-enter the earth's atmosphere. In so doing, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned at fourteen minutes past six o'clock.