Sitting of 19 April 1961

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  RAILWAYS

    Mail (Security)
    Mr. D. Jonesasked the Minister of Transport if he will give a general direction to the British Transport Commission to ensure greater security for mail on all its trains.
    The Minister of Transport (Mr. Ernest Marples): No, Sir. The British Transport Commission is co-operating fully with the Post Office in measures for the security of mails on trains.
    Mr. Jones: While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him if he can be a little more specific and say what the provisions are?
    Mr. Marples: I think not. Whilst I should like to tell the House what they are, if I did so I should be telling the thieves as well.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the concern of my hon. Friend in this matter is shared by many hon. Members who are disturbed by the sight of large consignments of mail lying around platforms at imporant railway termini ostensibly with no supervision at all? With his experience of the Post Office, will the Minister see what he can do to improve the security methods?
    Mr. Marples: I will certainly see what can be done to improve them. As I said in my original Answer, the difficulty is that if I give the information to the House I shall, in effect, through the newspapers, explain to the thieves what precautions we are taking, and it would be very much better if they did not know what the precautions are.

    Electrified Lines (Fencing)
    Mr. J. Wellsasked the Minister of Transport if, in view of recent accidents on electrified railway lines, he will introduce legislation to alter the statutory specification of railway fencing.
    Mr. P. Wellsasked the Minister of Transport if, in the interests of saving the lives of children and livestock, he will introduce legislation to enforce the provision of protective fencing where electrified railways pass through agricultural holdings.
    Mr. Marples: I consider that the law as it stands is adequate. The British Transport Commission has to obtain my approval before any line is opened for electric traction and my Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways approves, on my behalf, the type of fencing to be used.
    Mr. J. Wells: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, apart from the case of the small boy recently killed on the electric line in my constituency, there have been accidents to domestic and agricultural animals in recent months and the National Farmers' Union is very worried at the apparently complacent attitude of the British Transport Commission to this matter?
    Mr. Marples: I have not myself heard from the National Farmers' Union, but I will get in touch and ask in what way it is particularly disturbed. The 9-year-old boy, a constitutent of my hon. Friend, met his death in an extraordinary place. He had been playing with other boys in some woods and he got on to the railway line by climbing the very steep side of a disused and heavily over-grown quarry. No fencing had been provided at this place because the risk of trespass had been considered negligible. Even so, the British Transport Commission is now looking at that particular spot to see whether it was right and whether fencing should be provided.
    Mr. P. Wells: Does the Minister realise that on the Southern Region line, since 1946, sixty-four children have lost their lives as a result of trespassing on the lines, an average of four a year? Soon we shall be entering the picking season for fruit, beans and hops, when hundreds of children will be brought into the fields and orchards adjacent to the railways. Will the Minister, therefore.

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    bring the strongest pressure to bear on the British Transport Commission, if he cannot introduce legislation for the purpose, to put up adequate fencing to protect the lives of children? I ask him to protect the lives of children as well as of livestock.
    Mr. Marples: Where there is considerable risk of trespass, especially by children, what is called an unclimbable chain link fence is erected. This type of fencing checks but, of course, cannot prevent very determined trespass. Chain link fencing is generally provided also where hop fields are close to the line, because severe trespass by children on holiday with their parents has been experienced. That is what normally happens where children are concerned. In the particular case referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Mr. J. Wells), the accident occurred at a virtually inaccessible place where, normally, one would not have expected a child to get on the line.

    Victoria Line Tube
    Mr. Fletcherasked the Minister of Transport whether he will now announce when a commencement will be made with the construction of a new tube from Victoria to north-east London.
    Mr. Marples: I am not yet in a position to make any announcement on this subject, but I shall do so as soon as I can.
    Mr. Fletcher: This continuous procrastination will not do. A decision on the matter is long overdue. Will the Minister confirm what is reported in today's Guardian, that he recognises that if the project is to continue Government financial assistance will be required; and will he confirm also that it is the duty of London Transport not merely to pay its way but to provide adequate passenger facilities, which cannot be done until this new tube is commenced?
    Mr. Marples: I have not seen the Guardian this morning. I will look at it and then write to the hon. Member. I do not know what it says, so I cannot comment on it.
    Mr. Strauss: For how many years has the Minister's Department been considering this very urgent problem? How many different excuses have been put
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    forward by different Ministers of Transport for not coming to a decision? Is not the continued failure to come to a decision an almost incredible example of Government delay, and can the Minister give us any hope whatever that the Government are likely to be able to make a statement on the matter during the next few weeks or even few months?
    Mr. Marples: It is obvious, with the railways in their present state, that the new Chairman of the British Transport Commission will have to make his assessment of the situation on the railways as a whole. The Victoria line will be considered in that context.
    Mr. Lipton: The right hon. Gentleman is the most coy of all Her Majesty's Ministers. When will he name the day?
    Mr. Marples: The hon. Member is the most coy of all Her Majesty's Opposition.
    Mr. Fletcher: Will the Minister realise that the responsibility for this decision rests upon him? When will he exert his authority and reach a decision?
    Mr. Marples: As I said in my original Answer, as soon as I can do so.

    Advertising
    Mr. Gourlayasked the Minister of Transport what changes in the general policy of the British Transport Commission regarding advertising are contemplated in view of his reorganisation proposals for the nationalised transport undertakings.
    Mr. Marples: General policy regarding advertising is a matter for the British Transport Commission and its successor undertakings. It is for them to decide whether any changes are necessary.
    Mr. Gourlay: Is the Minister aware that only this month a change has been made in the commercial advertising division of the Commission and that the former public relations adviser who retired at the end of March has been appointed chairman of a small board to administer commercial advertising in Britain? Will he give the House an assurance that the present work undertaken by this division in Scotland will not be transferred to London in view of the unemployment position in Scotland?
    Mr. Marples: This is an internal matter of management for the B.T.C. but I will ask it to look into the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question.

  ROADS

    Tolls
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Transport whether he has yet reached a decision on the introduction of tolls on some new motorways, in order to increase, as rapidly as possible, the total mileage of motorways in this country.
    Mr. du Cannasked the Minister of Transport whether he will now announce his conclusions upon the study he has recently carried out into the question of toll roads.
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Transport if he will make a statement on the report of the study he ordered into the question of introducing tolls on motorways.
    Mr. Marples: The Government have decided not to impose tolls on motorways forming part of the five major projects or planned as early extensions of them. The question of tolls on other and later motorways will be examined further. The existing policy of charging tolls on large and expensive tunnels or bridges will be continued.
    Mr. Digby: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether it is not a fact that only £11 million additional is being spent on new roads next year, whereas £25 million extra is being imposed on the motorist in the form of taxation on motor vehicles? Would it not be a better bargain for the motorist to pay once on a toll road rather than twice over in this way?
    Mr. Marples: No, I cannot accept the figures given by my hon. Friend. Very much more than £11 million is being spent.
    Mr. Digby: I said £11 million extra.
    Mr. du Cann: Will my right hon. Friend be good enough to give an undertaking that he will keep an open mind on the question of the introduction of tolls on new motorways in the future, for it seems that this is the only way
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    in which we can get private capital into road building? Can he say when he thinks his future study will be completed and when he thinks there may be an opportunity for an announcement to be made to the House? In addition, will he bear in mind that there are probably as many hon. Members in favour of toll roads as there are against them?
    Mr. Marples: I am certain that there are many views on the question of tolls, and that opinion is fairly equally divided. The point is that on the five major projects which have already been announced, some of which have been started and some of which have been completed, including their extensions, it is not possible to have tolls; but after that, on future motorways, we shall have a completely open mind.
    Mr. Dodds: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain to those who do not agree with the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) why it is necessary to raise tolls at all? Have we not in the Budget just had a classic example of soaking the motorist? If money is required to build roads, why cannot such a method as has been announced in the Budget be employed instead of levying tolls? The collection of tolls might have been justified in the dim and distant past, in the Victorian era, but how can it be claimed to be suitable in the modern age?
    Mr. Marples: A toll is absolutely appropriate in the case of a very expensive tunnel or bridge and where there are tremendous advantages to be gained by using the tunnel or the bridge. Therefore, it is still the intention of Her Majesty's Government to charge tolls on very costly new bridge and tunnel schemes.
    Mr. Strauss: How is it possible to justify the additional tax on some motorists who have to use a bridge or tunnel which does not apply to other motorists in other parts of the country who do not use the new bridge or tunnel? There is no justice or sense in it at all.
    Mr. Marples: I have often agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, but I regret that on this occasion I cannot. In the case of the Dartford tunnel it was agreed (a) that it should be built, and (b) that there should be a toll on it. Once we started building, there was

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    pressure for removing the toll, but it was a package deal and we should not be able to build it unless there were a toll.
    Mr. Dodds: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I put it to you that the Questions relate not to tunnels or bridges but to motorways, which are a separate matter? Would the Minister not cloud the issue by bringing in bridges and tunnels when we are concerned with motorways like M.1?
    Mr. Speaker: I did not hear anything that was out of order.

    Hyde Park Under-pass
    Mr. Hunterasked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made with the construction of the Hyde Park motor under-pass scheme; and whether he is yet in a position to give an approximate completion date.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. John Hay): Work on this scheme is proceeding according to plan. It should be completed by about the end of August, 1962.
    Mr. Hunter: May I ask the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, in view of the urgent need of relieving traffic congestion in London and restoring the amenities of Hyde Park, whether he and his right hon. Friend will endeavour to speed up completion of this project?
    Mr. Hay: No, Sir. This scheme is being run by the London County Council, and work is proceeding according to the schedule laid down in the contract, despite the substantial difficulties of doing this work, because we have to keep the traffic circulating, and despite the extremely serious bad weather experienced in the last few months. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] I do not think there is any possibility of speeding up the completion of this project.

    Roads Programme
    Mr. du Cannasked the Minister of Transport whether he will now announce the new three-year classified roads programme.
    Mr. Marples: This has now been notified to highway authorities. A list
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    of the larger schemes included is being placed in the Library for the information of hon. Members.
    Mr. du Cann: Will my right hon. Friend be good enough also to publish this information in the OFFICIAL REPORT? Will he also say whether this represents an increase upon previous years, and will he tell us how the West Country fares in this matter, and whether we have had an increase, as we very much hope?
    Mr. Marples: The West Country, as always, has been treated very generously. The maximum publicity will be given to this particular effort on the part of the Government.

    A.20 Road, Harrietsham (Pedestrian Refuges)
    Mr. J. Wellsasked the Minister of Transport if he will give urgent consideration to the provision of pedestrian refuges on the A.20 road in the parish of Harrietsham.
    Mr. Hay: We intend to provide refuges at the junctions of East and West Streets with A.20. The start of work must depend on the acquisition of a small amount of land to maintain the carriageway width, but I hope it will be this financial year.
    Mr. Wells: Is my hon. Friend aware that with the great increase in the width of the road, and the fact that the road divides the parish in two, with the alms-houses and all the old people living on the south side and the church, the post office and the school on the north side, this is a veritable death trap? Is he also aware that it is extremely urgent that this summer some temporary refuge, if not a permanent one, should be provided?
    Mr. Hay: I take note of what my hon. Friend has said.

    By-pass, Long Ashton
    Mr. Leatherasked the Minister of Transport when he intends to order work to start on the Long Ashton bypass road in Somerset.
    Mr. Hay: I cannot at present say when this scheme could be authorised.
    Mr. Leather: I assure my hon. Friend that I am well aware of the many complexities of the matter, but is he aware that the continuous argument and "argybargy" about this badly needed by-pass has been going on now for about thirty years? Will he consider putting all those concerned, including his own Ministry, in one room, locking the door, and refusing to let them out until they make up their minds?
    Mr. Hay: I doubt that that sort of solution would be as effective as my hon. Friend thinks. As he says, we have for many years recognised the need for a by-pass. A line appears in the Somerset county development plan as a trunk road scheme forming part of the Bristol outer by-pass, which is a motorway project. We are now discussing with the Somerset County Council and the other local authorities possible lines for the route of this motorway. We shall press on and try to reach a decision as soon as we can.

    Telephone Kiosks, Gosforth (Member's Letter)
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Minister of Transport on what date he received a letter from the hon. Member for Tynemouth about two telephone kiosks dangerously placed from the point of view of traffic in Gosforth; on what date he replied; and when action may be expected.
    Mr. Hay: My hon. Friend's letter was received on 24th October, 1960, and a reply was sent on 30th November, 1960. The time when the telephone kiosks will be moved is a matter for my right hon. Friend, the Postmaster-General, whose property they are. I understand that the sites approved as being suitable on traffic grounds have now proved to be impracticable for other reasons, but my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General is making efforts to find suitable alternative sites.
    Dame Irene Ward: Is my hon. Friend aware that the police also supported the suggested alteration of the sites of these telephone kiosks? Will he please explain to me, in his capacity as Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, why it should be left to someone like me, who knows nothing about the siting of telephone kiosks, to
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    receive representations and to examine the possibility of danger to life and limb? Why did not the Postmaster-General get his staff to go a long time ago? Was it perhaps that my hon. Friend did not take the trouble to let him know that there was danger to life and limb with the kiosks on the present sites?
    Mr. Hay: As I have said, questions relating to the siting of kiosks are for my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General. It is true that both the local authority and the police supported the suggestion that these two kiosks should be moved. We are getting on with that as quickly as we can, but now we have run into difficulties over re-locating the kiosks on different sites. That difficulty will be cleared as quickly as possible. I think that my hon. Friend sells herself a little short in suggesting that we have to wait until she tells us what ought to be done.

    Disabled Drivers (Parking Meter Charges)
    Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Transport whether he will take steps to provide for the making of appeals in cases where local authorities refuse applications for exemption from parking meter charges made by disabled drivers.
    Mr. Hay: No, Sir. The administration of parking meter schemes has been deliberately left to the responsibility of local authorities, who should in our view continue to decide whether to grant exemption from charges to a disabled driver.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the case I have in mind is that of a man who has lost both legs and whose appeal for a free parking place has been turned down by the local authority? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this man is anxious to know to whom he can now appeal? He cannot appeal again to the local authority which has turned him down. Can he ask the Minister to arbitrate on whether he has a case?
    Mr. Hay: No. With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I think it would be a little unreasonable for appeals to be made to my right hon. Friend for a decision in these cases. These are matters of local responsibility, and in our view

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    local authorities have a much greater knowledge of the local circumstances than the Ministry could possibly have. For that reason, we deliberately leave decisions on these questions to the local authorities.
    Mr. Awbery: Is there no appeal against the decision of the local authority?
    Mr. Hay: There is no appeal in the technical sense, but I suggest that the hon. Gentleman's constituent might well try approaching the local authority again.

    Gosforth
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that Gosforth Urban District Council is planning the removal of the heart of the village because of the congestion of traffic; and why he has not already taken further action to make the High Street safer for children and elderly people.
    Mr. Hay: I am aware that the local authorities are considering a plan to resite the central shopping area of Gosforth to the west of the Great North Road. So far as the second part of the Question is concerned my hon. Friend will be aware from correspondence with me of the measures which have been taken or which are being currently examined to improve the safety of the High Street.
    Dame Irene Ward: May I ask whether my hon. Friend is aware that elderly people, children and parents of children are scared to death to cross the main road in Gosforth village? May I ask why traffic lights have been put up in an area in Gosforth where there have been no fatal accidents, where there is no traffic speeding and where it is possible to see in all directions, but have been refused in the High Street? Is he aware that there is a shortage of police? Is my hon. Friend concerned only with keeping the traffic moving, and is he aware that it moves far too fast through the centre of Gosforth, resulting in fatal accidents and creating great anxiety for people who live there? Will he please get on with doing something about it?
    Mr. Hay: I have corresponded exhaustively with my hon. Friend on this question—
    Dame Irene Ward: With no result.
    Mr. Hay: —and I am afraid that today, in answer to Questions, I cannot go into some of the details which she has raised. We are obliged to my hon. Friend for bringing her point of view to our notice and we shall get on with this matter as quickly as possible.

    Heads of the Valleys Road
    Mr. Reesasked the Minister of Transport when he now expects the Ml length of the Neath-Abergavenny Heads of the Valleys Road to be completed; what it will cost; and if he will reconsider enlarging the scheme to a dual carriageway road.
    Mr. Hay: We expect that the improvement of the Heads of the Valleys road from Abergavenny to Hirwaun will be completed in 1965 or 1966. Its estimated cost is about £6,250,000. I cannot say when the road from Hirwaun to Neath will be improved. With regard to the carriageway width, I cannot add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend on 17th February, 1960, to my hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Mr. Gower).
    Mr. Rees: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply and I welcome the fact that we shall see this road completed in the foreseeable future. Will he reconsider the question of the width of the road, having regard to the fact that new industry coming to West Glamorganshire and East Carmarthenshire is so related to industry in the Midlands that it will create an increase of traffic on this road which his Department could never have taken into account when the road was planned?
    Mr. Hay: The position is not quite as my hon. Friend says. Taking into account the development he mentioned, we estimated that the traffic on the Heads of the Valleys Road would not reach a figure of 11,000 passenger car units per day until about twenty years from now. That is within the limit in which it is our policy to provide only a single 33-ft. carriageway.
    Mr. Callaghan: Does not the Minister realise that he has neglected two important factors? Is he aware that there is general support for the view which has been expressed? Is he aware that the

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    gradients on this road, which at certain points is 1,000-ft. up, combined with the climatic conditions, create the possibility of icing in winter which would convert parts of the road into a death trap? Will he reconsider the suggestions made by the hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Rees)?
    Mr. Hay: I will look into the points raised by the hon. Gentleman, but I do not think that they are likely to change our views on this matter.

    Bath Road, Cranford (Pedestrian Subways)
    Mr. Hunterasked the Minister of Transport whether he will now give the opening date of the pedestrian subways in the Bath Road, Cranford; and what were the reasons for the delay.
    Mr. Hay: I hope that the central subway will be open for use in a fortnight, and the two others by mid-May. The delay in completion which I regret was due to the abnormally wet autumn and winter and to the contractor's difficulty in getting and retaining skilled labour.
    Mr. Hunter: I thank the Minister for giving us the opening date of one of the subways. Is he aware that the anticipated date was last October and that my constituents were very disappointed in view of the urgent need for an additional subway on this main road to London Airport?
    Mr. Hay: We were just as disappointed as the hon. Member and his constituents, but the fact is that we did have this extremely bad weather—
    Mr. Manuel: When?
    Mr. Hay: —in the autumn and winter, as I said in my Answer. The contractor had the greatest difficulty in getting the skilled labour needed for this type of work.

    Commercial Vehicles (All-Night Parking)
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Transport if he will announce the result of his investigation into the problem of all-night parking of commercial vehicles in Brixton.
    Mr. Marples: My investigations into this difficult problem may take some
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    time. I will let the hon. Member know as soon as they are complete.
    Mr. Lipton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that not only in Brixton but in many other parts of London the conditions arising from this all-night parking of heavy commercial vehicles have become quite intolerable? Is it not a problem with which he has been acquainted for some time now, and ought not really drastic action to be taken in the very near future?
    Mr. Marples: The hon. Member himself has moved locally to try to succeed but, I am afraid, has failed, so I shall do my best to help him, and this is the way we are going to help. We have seen the Metropolitan Police and the City Police and I have seen them again this week, and we are to have discussions with all the Metropolitan boroughs concerned, because what is needed is not so much strengthening of the law as adequate off-street parking facilities. This is a problem especially of amenities. I agree that it applies to many boroughs in London. We will certainly do all we can as quickly as we can.
    Mr. Fletcher: May we take it from what the right hon. Gentleman has said that the investigations are covering the whole of London, because this has become an intolerable nuisance and, indeed, a danger, in Islington and other parts of London? May we take it that the Minister will not wait till adequate off-street parking facilities are provided, because meantime in a great many respects a large number of inhabitants in the residential quarters of London are now suffering very seriously?
    Mr. Marples: The problem applies to the inner Metropolitan boroughs of London—Bermondsey, Brixton, many others. We shall treat it as a problem of that magnitude.

    Eastern Avenue Extension, Leyton
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Transport if he will arrange in respect of householders and shopkeepers affected by the Eastern Avenue Extension through the borough of Leyton and in regard to similar major road reconstruction elsewhere that notice to treat shall be served when the approval of such schemes is made public and not left until

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    immediately prior to the commencement of operations, and thus avoid delay involving financial hardship.
    Mr. Hay: Notices to treat cannot legally be issued until a compulsory purchase order has been made incorporating the detailed land requirements. In general, compulsory purchase of land and property long in advance of road works is normally undesirable, but we shall certainly have regard to the need for starting land acquisition in very good time for schemes such as the Eastern Avenue Extension which involve displacing large numbers of residents and businesses.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate that a large number of my constituents are very seriously affected by the prolonged delay in the development of this road, and that the suggestion embodied in my Question comes from those who are affected? In those circumstances, will he see that their suggestion is sympathetically considered?
    Mr. Hay: Yes. The difficulty is partly legal, in that, as I said in my Answer, we cannot serve notices to treat till the compulsory purchase order is made. Secondly, if a particular case of hardship arises where property is virtually unsaleable because of the prospects of our roadworks requiring land, there are the provisions of Part IV of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1959, the planning blight provisions, whereby we are authorised to make earlier purchases than would otherwise be the case.

  SHIPPING

    Merchant Shipping Act, 1894
    Mr. P. Williamsasked the Minister of Transport whether he will now take steps to review the workings of the Merchant Shipping Act of 1894.
    Mr. Prenticeasked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made towards an agreement between his Department and both sides of the shipping industry on the desirability of amending the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894.
    Mr. Ernest Marples: Representatives of both sides of the shipping industry are
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    considering this subject and I am awaiting their recommendations.
    Mr. Williams: While recognising that it would be dangerous to press too quickly in this matter, which is for negotiation between the two sides, would not my right hon. Friend agree that the discussions appear to be hanging fire a little at the moment? Will his Ministry try to urge matters on to a conclusion?
    Mr. Marples: Both sides of industry are on the National Maritime Board and, so far as I can gather from both sides, they are satisfied with the rate of progress. I think it is very difficult for a Minister to say, if both sides of industry are in negotiations, that they are not negotiating quickly enough, and I would rather leave it to them to decide what measures they would like to be adopted before my Ministry looks into the matter.
    Mr. Shinwell: While it is necessary to consult both sides of industry on a complicated matter of this sort, would it not be desirable after the consultations have been concluded that the Minister should issue a White Paper so that hon. Members could express their views before the introduction of legislation?
    Mr. Marples: I should like to consider that. I will say that when both sides of industry have decided what they would like, it is very necessary that the Minister should look at it from the point of view of the safety considerations.

    Shipbuilding (Advisory Sub-Committee's Report)
    Mr. P. Williamsasked the Minister of Transport whether he will now make a statement about the future of the shipbuilding industry.
    Mr. Marples: The Report is being published today of the Sub-Committee of the Shipbuilding Advisory Committee which was set up to review the prospects of, and the problems facing, the shipbuilding and ship-repairing industry. Most of its recommendations are addressed to the industry and I hope that they will be followed up energetically. Three of the recommendations are for the Government. The new export credit facilities which my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade announced last week have

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    already met one of these. I am giving consideration to the other two, relating to possible scrapping schemes and orders for Government-owned snips.
    Mr. Williams: Can my right hon. Friend say exactly when the Report will be published? Is it to be today? Can he also say if there will be an opportunity of debating the matters which will obviously arise, which may be of considerable importance to the shipbuilding areas?
    Mr. Marples: The Report will be available in the Vote Office at the end of Questions. The question of a debate is one for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and Leader of the House.
    Mr. Willey: Will the Minister assure us that he will give an early reply to the two points outstanding and affecting the Government? May I also join with the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) in pressing the Minister to see his right hon. Friend about the advisability of having an early debate?
    Mr. Marples: The question of a debate should be raised on Thursday with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. Out of three recommendations which, it is said, the Government should adopt, as we have already adopted one before the Report is published, that shows how quickly we shall proceed.
    Dame Irene Ward: Will my right hon. Friend recommend a debate?

    Transatlantic Passengers
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Minister of Transport what was the number of passengers to or from the United Kingdom who crossed the Atlantic Ocean by sea in 1956 and 1960, respectively.
    Mr. Marples: The number of passengers to and from the United Kingdom who crossed the Atlantic Ocean by sea in 1956 was 382,000. Figures for 1960 are not yet available but the number for the first ten months of 1960 was 261,000.
    Mr. Ridley: Can my right hon. Friend say what proportion these figures represent of the total number of passengers crossing the Atlantic by all means, and does not this underline that the building of a new "Queen" liner might be subsidising a declining industry?
    Mr. Marples: I do not think so, because the Question asked about the number of people crossing the Atlantic Ocean, which includes not only people going to the United States but also to Canada. Much of the recent fall in sea pasenger traffic was in emigrants to Canada. Further, as the "Queens" actually take the cream of the traffic, therefore, the Question as it stands is not valid as a comparison as to whether the "Queens" will be effective or not.
    Mr. J. Howard: Can my right hon. Friend give comparable figures for the "Queens" for 1956 and the first ten months of 1960?
    Mr. Marples: Not without notice.

    Nuclear Propulsion
    Mr. Chetwyndasked the Minister of Transport whether he will now make a statement about the future programme of research and development for nuclear-powered merchant shipping.
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of Transport whether he will now make a statement about the award of a contract for the construction of a prototype nuclear propelled merchant vessel.
    Mr. Marples: I hope to make a statement fairly soon on the application of nuclear power to merchant shipping.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Can the Minister say what is holding up this decision? Why is he dithering about this? Why should we be rapidly falling behind other nations in a field in which our inventiveness and skill should give us a great lead?
    Mr. Marples: The real point is that we must make the best use of our resources and be satisfied that what we do is right in the interests of the nation. What worries me more than anything else is the economics of this method of propulsion.
    Mr. Wall: In view of the importance of this subject, and the great interest which it causes, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he will consider publishing a White Paper when he comes to a decision?
    Mr. Marples: I should like to consider that. When any decision is arrived at, a complete explanation ought to be provided both for the House and the country.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Can the Minister be a little more specific about the timing? What does he mean by shortly? Does he mean in the next few weeks?
    Mr. Marples: Very soon,

    M.V. "Dara" (Survivors)
    Mr. Straussasked the Minister of Transport if he will now make a statement on the inquiries he has made on the treatment accorded to some of the survivors of the m.v. "Dara".
    Mr. Marples: The reception of so many survivors presented a problem to the authorities. My inquiries show that the arrangements made by the Bahrain Government and the ship's agents, in consultation with the Political Agent, were the best that were possible in the circumstances.
    The reception centre at Muharraq was chosen because it was the only building large enough for the expected number of survivors with easy access and the necessary facilities. It was roofed and its floors were of concrete, although a central courtyard was of earth wet after the rains. Hot meals, clothing, blankets, financial and medical assistance were provided.
    No Bahrainis or foreigners with relatives or friends in Bahrain were detained later than 9.30 a.m. and the centre was closed at 3.30 p.m.
    Mr. Strauss: Did the right hon. Gentleman read the account by the correspondent of The Times, who was himself on this boat and a survivor, of what happened to him when he reached Bahrain and of the appalling, incredibly bad conditions in which he and the other survivors were housed for two days without being allowed to see anyone from outside? If that account is correct, was not something grossly wrong in the arrangements, and could not our representative there have done something better?
    Mr. Marples: I saw the account in The Times. I have asked for inquiries to be made. I asked for specific inquiries to be made of India and Pakistan, and the consular representatives of both those countries expressed appreciation for the excellent reception arrangements. No complaints at all other than that of
    1156
    the correspondent of The Times have been made. Even so, I will go into that particular single complaint.

    Boat Owners (Seamanship Test)
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Transport what the result has been of his consultations with interested bodies about the introduction of a seamanship test for boat owners.
    Mr. Marples: Some of the bodies consulted have not yet been able to let me have their final views, but I hope to receive them shortly.
    Mr. Lipton: May I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the sympathetic attitude he showed to the proposal when I first put it forward? Before the usual crop of holiday fatalities occur, will he try to urge the interested bodies to deal with this matter with a greater degree of expedition than apparently they have shown?
    Mr. Marples: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his gratitude, although I am bound to say that it makes me a little apprehensive. We did write to a large number of bodies—the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, the Dock and Harbour Authorities' Association, the Royal Yachting Association, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, and many others. It is difficult to ask these bodies to produce their replies quickly, but I will do my best to expedite the matter. It is in their hands and not so much in the hands of the Government.
    Mr. Grant-Ferris: Has the attention of my right hon. Friend been drawn to the correspondence and the editorial comment about this in the boating Press, strongly advocating that no precipitate action should be taken not only in this case but in other matters, including boat registration?
    Mr. Marples: I am convinced that this will raise questions which will have many complications and that it would be much better that the Government should be absolutely right and a little late with their decision, rather than early and wrong.

  TRANSPORT

    Lorry Drivers (Working Hours)
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Transport if he will now state when he proposes to introduce a 10-hour maximum working day for lorry drivers.
    Mr. Marples: I cannot add to what I said in reply to the hon. Member's Question on 29th March.
    Mr. Allaun: If British Road Services can successfully operate a 10-hour maximum, why cannot private firms follow their example? Secondly, since, as distinct from most industrial negotiations, public safety is directly concerned, is not immediate Government action required?
    Mr. Marples: The reduction of hours asked for in this Question is desirable on two grounds, maybe. First, safety, and, second, raising the standard of living. The question of raising the standard of living is one for negotiations between the unions and the industry in the usual way. The question of safely, of course, is for the Government, and in 1960, for example, there were 78,000 fatal and serious accidents on the roads, and in only 71 of these was the illness, fatigue or physical defect of a commercial driver involved. Only when the Ministry and the Government are convinced that safety is involved should they take action.

    Traffic Congestion (Large Vehicles)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Transport what further consideration he has given to the necessity of restricting to wide roads and to certain periods slow-moving large vehicles and vehicles of exceptional length in order to avoid serious congestion and dangerous passing.
    Mr. Hay: In view of the comments put forward by some of the interests concerned on the proposals we circulated last year, we are considering how far the burden they would impose on industry can reasonably be modified.
    Mr. Sorensen: Quite apart from the burden on industry, does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate the great burden upon both motorists and pedestrians in
    1158
    many parts of the country as a result of the severe congestion caused, sometimes involving a hold-up of half an hour or more? In the circumstances, is it not his social duty to try to take action in the matter?
    Mr. Hay: Yes, Sir. That is precisely why we have circulated these proposals for new regulations. The position now is that we have received representations from industrialists and others, and we are seeing whether we can come to a mutually agreed scheme whereby we shall have tighter control over these loads but without placing on industry too heavy a burden.
    Mr. J. T. Price: Is the Minister aware that, about three years ago, on two occasions, one of his predecessors at the Ministry of Transport assured me that this urgent question was being considered by an inter-Departmental committee and the report of that committee was awaited very shortly. We have had "very shortly" and "soon" and "perhaps" several times today. What I am referring to occurred three years ago, and it is on record in HANSARD. Apparently, nothing has been done. Is the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friend aware that I have recently seen examples of railway locomotives, railway rolling stock, carried on vehicles with over 100 wheels on the highway A.56 and coming south holding up three miles of traffic, and that this sort of thing goes on all the time?
    Mr. Hay: The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong to say that nothing has been done. As I have explained, following the report to which he refers, we have prepared new draft regulations which will give the Minister much greater control over the movement of this type of vehicle. We have circulated them. We have received a large number of representations. We are now engaged in considering those representations and we shall very soon come to a decision and make an announcement about what our proposals are.

  TELEPHONE SERVICE

    Telephone Directory, Norfolk
    Mr. Hiltonasked the Postmaster-General if he will consider compiling and publishing a separate telephone directory

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    for the county of Norfolk to operate from 1962.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Miss Mervyn Pike): My right hon. Friend is considering this proposal, although he sees some difficulties in it. He will write to the hon. Member and to other hon. Members who have raised this question as soon as his examination is completed.
    Mr. Hilton: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that reply in that she says she is going into this matter, but is she aware that at present Norfolk is served by four different telephone directories covering Ipswich, Peterborough, Cambridge and Norwich? In my own area we are supplied with a directory covering the Cambridge area. I can get calls from Bishops Stortford and places 80 miles distant, but in the other direction, for local calls to only six miles away, we have to dial "Inquiries" and ask for the number. Will the hon. Lady bear this sort of thing in mind and consider that really in 1961 this is a stupid state of affairs? I hope that she will be able to help us in this connection.
    Miss Pike: We recognise the difficulties and are looking very closely into this matter.

    Telephone Poles
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Postmaster-General what was the quantity of home-grown telephone poles purchased by his Department last year, to the nearest convenient date; and what proportion of total purchases of telephone poles they represented.
    Miss Pike: 13,552 telephone poles were purchased from the home industry during 1960, representing 26 per cent. of the total purchases for the year.
    Mr. Digby: Will my hon. Friend make it quite clear that, where the price and quality are good enough, her Department will try to buy home-grown products and species other than Scots pine?
    Miss Pike: I can assure my hon. Friend that we shall do everything we can to encourage home-grown produce and we do in fact accept species other than Scots pine.
    Mr. Manuel: Will the hon. Lady tell us if there are any suitable areas in Scotland where this lucrative crop could not be grown?
    Miss Pike: The majority of the poles come from Scotland and at present a senior official of the Department is up in Scotland looking into this problem.
    Sir J. Duncan: Will my hon. Friend get in touch with the Forestry Commission to see if it can find more suitable timber for Post Office use?
    Miss Pike: We work very closely with the Forestry Commission on this.

    Aberdeen
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Postmaster-General if he will state the numbers, at the latest convenient date, of applicants for telephones in Aberdeen City and County, respectively; if he will specify the steps he has taken during the last five years and the steps he now plans to take to reduce the number on those waiting lists; and what have been the results.
    Miss Pike: On 31st March last there were 431 applications on hand in Aberdeen City and 284 in the remainder of the County. Of these, 343 and 233 respectively were under inquiry or in course of being met.
    Additional plant has been provided in the last five years, enabling us to provide 6,768 telephones in the City and 3,604 in the County. The waiting list has been reduced by 1,016 in the City and 465 in the County. More plant is being put in to meet the current and future demand.
    Mr. Hughes: I am glad to know that the waiting list has been reduced, but does the hon. Lady realise that conversations in Aberdeen should be encouraged because they are generally characterised by sense, wit and humour, and sometimes by justifiable emotion?
    Miss Pike: I am glad to find myself in agreement with the hon. and learned Gentleman, and I would stress also that they are marked by the generosity which we all recognise is the main characteristic of the Aberdonian.

    Subscriber Trunk Dialling, London
    Mr. Skeetasked the Postmaster-General what plans he has for the introduction of subscriber trunk dialling in London this year.
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. Reginald Bevins): I am hoping that S.T.D. facilities will be brought into use on 1st July at the Metropolitan, London Wall and Moorgate exchanges. By the end of the year I hope to provide S.T.D. for our customers on a further nineteen exchanges in the City, Westminster and the West End.
    Mr. Skeet: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that information, may I ask when he intends to extend this system to the Willesden area? May I invite his comment on an observation that subscribers find that while they are economising on long-distance calls, they find it more expensive to face bills for local calls?
    Mr. Bevins: I do not think that Willesden is scheduled for subscriber trunk dialling within the next twelve months. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] As for charges under the new system, it is perfectly true that some subscribers find that their bills are heavier than they were. It is equally true that for others they are lower, but something like three-quarters of the people who are on the new system approve of it.

    Continental Trunk Exchange
    Mr. W. R. Williamsasked the Postmaster-General (1) whether the operating and supervisory staffs at the Continental Trunk Exchange are up to authorised establishment;
    (2) what is the average delay on calls made from northern provincial offices to Continental Trunks during peak traffic hours; and what complaints he has received of excessive delays.
    Mr. Bevins: Unfortunately, the linguistic operating staff is still about 25 per cent. below strength. All the supervisory posts are filled, some by temporary promotion.
    I have received a number of complaints about delays. On the average, the connection of calls from the North to the Continental Exchange takes about
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    one minute, but it is sometimes longer. I am doing all I can to improve the service by stimulating recruitment, which I am glad to say is now improving, and by other means.
    Mr. Williams: In noting the right hon. Gentleman's general comments, may I ask whether one of the difficulties in recruiting suitable operators into the Continental Trunk Exchange is that the allowance for the specialist linguistic qualifications is regarded by most of the operators as quite inadequate? Will the right hon. Gentleman look into this?
    Mr. Bevins: I recently did so and increased the language allowance, I think last October, from 19s. to 35s. a week, and at the same time there were improvements in pay and conditions generally. I believe that the situation is now improved at that Exchange. We have 214 telephonists now in training and I am sure that the situation will continue to improve.

  POST OFFICE

    Railways (Mail Security)
    Mr. D. Jonesasked the Postmaster-General what proposals concerning security of mail on trains were agreed during the recent discussions between his Department, the Ministry of Transport, and the British Transport Commission.
    Commander Keransasked the Postmaster-General what steps he has taken recently to improve mail security in trains.
    Mr. Bevins: It would help the criminal world if I gave details of the steps that have been, and are being, taken in cooperation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and the British Transport Commission to improve mail security on trains. I can say, however, that they include changes in the stowage arrangements for mails on long-distance trains, and improved physical protection for the doors of guards' vans and the grilles of cages used for carrying mail.
    I am fully alive to the need for completing all the work involved here as quickly as possible.
    Mr. Jones: While thanking the Minister for that reply and assuring him that we are not unsympathetic about this very grievous problem, I feel obliged to say that I hope that other methods will be offered to the House to tighten up a very unsatisfactory position.
    Mr. Bevins: I entirely agree that the precautions which have been taken have proved to be partially ineffective in recent times, but I assure the House that this matter has been taken most seriously by me and by the Ministry of Transport and by the British Transport Commission.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: While appreciating that it would be unwise to disclose some of the methods which have been agreed upon between the respective Departments in regard to security, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will assure the House that he will try to vary the methods hitherto used by the Post Office in the labelling of bags so that the identification of bags containing valuables and registered letters will be made a little more difficult than it has been in the past?
    Mr. Bevins: Without giving any information away at all, I assure the hon. Member that action has been taken.

  WIRELESS AND TELEVISION

    Television Licences (Old People)
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Postmaster-General if he has considered the recommendation by the North Regional Advisory Council of cheap television licences for old people.
    Miss Pike: The views of the B.B.C.'s North Regional Advisory Council have come to the notice of my right hon. Friend. He is sorry he is unable to adopt the suggestion.
    Mr. Allaun: Will the Minister reconsider this matter, because is not this an instance where a small concession would bring a large return in human happiness? Is it not true that it would not cost the Post Office anything at all if extra viewers were brought to viewing, and that revenue would be lost only from the relatively small number of pensioners who can afford to have a T.V. licence?
    Miss Pike: I would remind the hon. Gentleman that pensioners are not a small number, and also that the great difficulty would be to know where to limit this concession. There are many other categories—the bedridden, the disabled—many people we can think of. It would be difficult to limit this concession. We believe that there are other and better ways of helping the people in this category.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: Surely it must be the wish of most people in this House that the old and disabled people of this country should share in the amenities of our modern life? I feel sure that it is the wish of hon. Members of this House that I should press the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider more sympathetically the decision which he has made. May I ask the hon. Lady if she has any estimate at all of what would be the cost if the fees for the old and disabled and the other people who are suffering, people of the sort she has mentioned, were reduced by, say, one-half?
    Miss Pike: It would be extremely difficult to make an estimate, in view of what I have said about the very wide nature of the concessions which in justice would have to be given, but I know that my right hon. Friend looks at this matter sympathetically. We all wish to help, but we do not believe that this is the right way of helping in this particular case.
    Mr. Allaun: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

    Colour Television
    Mr. Doddsasked the Postmaster-General what progress has now been made in introducing colour television; what are the prospects in the near future; and what are the main obstacles.
    Mr. Bevins: The B.B.C. test transmissions in colour are to continue, and I hope they will help our manufacturers to develop a reliable and less expensive colour receiver which will not require an imported picture tube.
    With regard to the latter part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to my Answer in the House on 14th

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    December last. The B.B.C. has recently re-opened the matter and I will naturally consider what it says.
    Mr. Dodds: Whilst appreciating the right hon. Gentleman's difficulty in saying anything in view of the discussions which are taking place, may I ask whether he is not aware that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction with the present position in that there are many who feel that he is pandering unnecessarily to the interests of commercial television? If that is not so, would he say so? Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that many people would like colour television, that it would transform life for many people who are home-bound, and that it would be a great social advance?
    Mr. Bevins: There is no question of my pandering to the Independent Television Authority—none whatever. The position is that the B.B.C. put its proposals to me towards the end of last year for experimental colour services. I turned them down, I think in January of this year, chiefly on the ground that I take the view that the question of line definition should be settled before the question of colour. The B.B.C. desires to reopen the matter now, and I will consider what it has to say.
    Mr. Mason: If line definition is the determining factor, why does not the right hon. Gentleman agree to allowing the B.B.C. to have a pilot scheme so that it can, even if it is on 405 lines instead of 625, gain more practical experience of production and reception?
    Mr. Bevins: That would be a mistake. Once an experimental system of 405 lines were allowed, one would be bound to create a demand for sets which in three or four years' time might well become quite obsolete.

    Advertising
    Mr. Mayhewasked the Postmaster-General what was the maximum amount of advertising permitted to be broadcast in any hour by the Indepedent Television Authority in 1958, 1959, 1960 and 1961; and what consultation he has had with the Authority under Section 4 (4) of the Television Act, 1954, to enforce a maximum of six minutes in any hour.
    Mr. Bevins: The normal maximum was eight minutes from the beginning of 1958 to September, 1960, 7½ minutes until December, 1960, and it has been seven minutes since then. On occasion, the Authority allows, subject to its prior approval, more than seven minutes in any one clock hour, provided this is offset by a reduction in the preceding or following hour.
    The answer to the second part of the Question is "None".
    Mr. Mayhew: Is the Minister aware that Channel 9 since it began has now broadcast well over 100 hours of excess television commercials, free of the new tax and bringing £1 million to the television programme companies? If a maximum of seven minutes is now regarded as being right, why was that maximum not brought in before? On what grounds is the maximum seven minutes and not six minutes as Parliament was assured it would be when the Television Act was passed?
    Mr. Bevins: The rule to which I.T.A. works is a limit of six minutes spot advertising averaged over the day. During the first six months of last year the average in peak hours was about seven minutes per hour. During the first three months of this year that has fallen to 6·4 minutes. The average for the whole day during the last three months has been 4·8 minutes, which I do not think is unreasonable.
    Mr. J. T. Price: As the right hon. Gentleman has now become a sleeping partner in television advertising and will cream off 10 per cent. of the revenues for the purposes of the Exchequer, may we have an assurance that suitable arrangements will be made by his Department in consultation with the Treasury to have proper auditing facilities available to check these times and to see that they are observed? Otherwise, is it not obvious to everybody that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have an interest in compounding a felony?
    Mr. Bevins: The Opposition cannot have it both ways.
    Mr. Shinwell: Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that sometimes the advertising is much more interesting than the programmes? Is he also

    1167
    aware that occasionally the B.B.C. surreptitiously introduces advertising for which, of course, it does not receive any revenue?
    Mr. Ellis Smith: May we have an example?
    Mr. Bevins: I have on occasion expressed the same view as that expressed by the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) in the first part of his supplementary question. As for the second part, I do not think that the B.B.C. deliberately does that sort of thing, but it sometimes creeps in inadvertently.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: Is not the important point here that the House during the debates on this matter was assured that the time at any hour would not exceed six minutes? Is it not the right hon. Gentleman's responsibility to see that the assurance which was given to the House is strictly observed?
    Mr. Bevins: As I have tried to indicate in my reply, the average time during the last three months devoted to spot advertising has been 4·8 minutes and the average during peak hours 6·4 minutes. I do not think that the practices of the television companies are in any sense at variance with what was said in Parliament when the Act was passed.

    Television Act, 1954 (Section 9)
    Mr. Mayhewasked the Postmaster-General on what occasions he has used his powers under Section 9 (1) of the Television Act, 1954.
    Mr. Bevins: None, Sir.
    Mr. Mayhew: Is the Postmaster-General aware that this Section of the Act gives Ministers power to make announcements in the public interest without charge? In view of that, why do not Ministers apply this for the recruiting commercials and cease spending huge sums of the taxpayers' money, which goes to the programme companies, for services which can be given free.
    Mr. Bevins: Because Section 9 (1) of the Television Act refers in terms to announcements. The intention was that the announcements should refer to things of an urgent character, such as
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    police notices, flood warnings, and so forth. I think that it would be wholly inappropriate for the Government to use the power given to them under Section 9 (1) for the purpose of obtaining advertising.

SIERRA LEONE (SITUATION)
Mr. Brockway (by Private Notice)asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies on what grounds a state of emergency has been declared in Sierra Leone and 18 leaders of the Opposition, including two members of the Legislative Council, have been arrested.
The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Iain Macleod): I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the text of the statement issued by the Sierra Leone Government, which gives the reasons for this action.
Mr. Brockway: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware how sincerely all of us desire that the independence of Sierra Leone shall start in happy conditions? Therefore, will he suggest to the Governor that he should call a meeting between representatives of the Government and the Opposition in order to avoid the disturbing circumstances which are likely to arise on the declaration of independence?
Mr. Macleod: We all hope that Sierra Leone will have, as it has had hitherto, a peaceful and happy progress towards independence. I must make it clear that this action, although taken by the Governor, which is the formal position until next Wednesday night, has been taken on the advice of the Prime Minister and the Cabinet. They have been in close consultation throughout.
If the hon. Member will read the report, which he may have seen in outline, and which will now be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT, I think that he will find that the Cabinet had good reasons for acting as it did. I think that it is right, in a case like this, to trust the judgment of the Governor and of the Prime Minister in the country.
Mr. Callaghan: While none of us would want to intervene on one side or the other in a matter Like this, where we do not have the facts, as allegations

1169
have been made in the Press that sabotage was attempted, may we take it that the Governor will use what powers remain to him to ensure that leaders of the Opposition are properly tried before the courts for such criminal acts as they are alleged to have committed?
Mr. Macleod: Yes, Sir. I am sure that there is no doubt of that, but I am glad that the hon. Member has made the point.
Following is the text of the statement:
Early today the Government detained several influential members of the All People's Congress. Government's reasons for this drastic action are as follows:
On the 19th February this year the following statement was issued by the Prime Minister's Office:
"The Prime Minister, Sir Milton Margai, is concerned about the threats, intimidating words and malicious and false rumours which are being uttered by certain irresponsible members of the community.
In view of the fact that the country is now very close to independence. Government will no longer tolerate such behaviour which is clearly calculated to have a disquieting effect on the public. Those concerned are hereby warned that the law will take its course if any further instance of such behaviour occurs."
Notwithstanding this statement there is ample evidence that the A.P.C. has continued to pursue a policy designed to cause insurrection and to create disturbances during the independence celebrations.
Government has kept its promise that it will lead Sierra Leone into independence before another General Election. A small group of A.P.C. men do not like this and are misleading the public by continuing to say elections must be held even as late as 26th April or there will be trouble. They know this is impossible. Any mock election and such play acting means nothing.
Secondly, these A.P.C. leaders are inciting the workers and their leaders to call a General Strike within 10 days of independence hoping that this will bring work to a stop and lead to rioting. They themselves shelter behind the trade union leaders. They know there is no trade dispute and that the workers would be led into an illegal strike on purely political grounds. They know it would do them no good, but would do them much harm at this stage.
Thirdly, they say at public meetings that they are for law and order, but A.P.C. members have assaulted and abused Minister of the Government and have threatened further assaults. The A.P.C. has made attempts to obtain explosives in order to cause sabotage. The A.P.C. has threatened to burn down a Freetown newspaper office and to blow up private houses. The A.P.C has made plans to sabotage the lighting at Brookfields and at
1170
Victoria Park. The A.P.C. has made plans to disrupt essential services including water supply. The A.P.C. have deliberately made false statements including inflated claims about its support and influence designed to foster dissatisfaction. The A.P.C. has displayed banners reading "elections or another Congo". The A.P.C. does not apparently welcome independence. They want to creat disturbances, demonstrations and confusion during independence and to bring the country into contempt and ridicule not only in West Africa but throughout the whole world at a time when the eyes of the whole world are upon us.
These people are financed by money coming from abroad. There are people and powers who do not want to see a peaceful and happy transfer of power in Sierra Leone. The A.P.C. leaders are doing all this simply to further their own ambitions without any thought for the interests of our country.
The Government is determined that everyone who wished to do so shall enjoy independence in peace and Ministers have therefore advised the Governor to introduce certain powers which will ensure that these men can be kept in custody until after independence.
No political opposition need have anything to fear providing it does not seek to use violence and riots as a political weapon. The Government, as the Constitution provides, will hold General Elections at the proper time in 1962.
It is thus abundantly clear that at a time when all Sierra Leone should be looking forward to a period of rejoicing over their independence the A.P.C. has pursued and is pursuing a policy designed to promote civil disturbances.
Government's firm action has been taken to ensure that at such an important time in the country's history her citizens and her friends will enjoy their independence free from fear.

RAILWAYS (ACCIDENT, PITSEA)
Mr. Gardner (by Private Notice)asked the Minister of Transport whether he has any statement to make about the rail crash last night near Pitsea.
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Ernest Marples): Yes, Sir. At about 1.30 p.m., the 12.25 p.m. Fenchurch Street to Shoeburyness passenger train, which was proceeding over the up line on account of prearranged engineering work on the down line, became derailed at a point about half-a-mile on the London side of Pitsea station. The engine turned over and the leading two coaches telescoped badly. The third and fourth coaches were derailed and damaged.
There were about 150 passengers in the train. I regret to say that two of them were killed and 42 injured. Thirty-six passengers were detained in hospital

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last night. Twenty-five are still in hospital.
I would like to extend my sympathy and, I am sure, the sympathy of the whole House, to the relatives of those who died, and to wish the injured a speedy recovery.
The emergency services responded rapidly to calls for help. The House would, I know, wish me to thank them, and the many local persons who went to the site, for the assistance they gave.
During the evening rush period, trains from Fenchurch Street for Pitsea and beyond were diverted via Tilbury, and an emergency bus service was introduced between Laindon and Pitsea. Normal services were operating this morning.
Colonel Robertson, an Inspecting Officer of Railways, went immediately to the site of the accident and will hold a formal inquiry.
Mr. Gardner: May I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement and join with him in his expression of sympathy to the relatives of those who were killed and in his good wishes to those who were injured in the accident? I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine) would also like to be associated with my right hon. Friend in that part of his statement. Is my right hon. Friend aware that the tributes that he has paid to the local and other emergency services and to the help and comfort which were afforded to the injured by those living locally are well deserved?
Is the Minister aware that this is one of the busiest commuting lines in the country? Can he assure the House and, in particular, the public who use this line that there will be no delay in any inquiry he may be making? Will he say whether the inquiry will be private or public? Upon what date will the inquiry take place?
Mr. Marples: The inquiry will certainly take place straight away, absolutely at once. I cannot say what it will be, but I agree that the quicker we can have such an inquiry and the quicker we can take remedial action, the better. I should like to reaffirm my thanks to the local people who played such a great part in alleviating the distress of the people involved in the accident.
Mr. Channon: I should like to join my right hon. Friend the Minister and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Billericay (Mr. Gardner) in the tributes which they have paid. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the accident was, in part, caused because there was single-line working along the line because of the work on overhead electrification? Will he do what he can to ensure that such work is carried on at a time when there is not heavy traffic along the line, particularly as when the summer months come along the volume of traffic will be even heavier than it is now?
Mr. Marples: I should not like to anticipate the findings of the inquiry, but I will certainly take note of what my hon. Friend has said in his supplementary question.
Mr. McAdden: I should like to join in the expression of thanks to the good people of Pitsea who valiantly rallied round on the occasion of this regrettable accident.
Will my right hon. Friend take a personal interest in the question of compensation to the victims of the accident? Is he aware that a crash occurred on this line at Dagenham three years ago, in which the guard on one of the trains lost both his legs, and that the guard has not received a penny in compensation from that day to this? Although there may be legalistic arguments as between the union and the B.T.C. about the amount of compensation, surely the Commission will give him something now. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the victims of this latest crash are not unduly penalised by overlong legalistic arguments?
Mr. Marples: I hope that there will be no delay in compensation. If my hon. Friend will give me details of the case to which he has referred, I promise him and the House that I will look into it straight away.

LAOS AND VIETNAM (SITUATION)
Mr. Warbey: On a point of order. May I ask whether the Lord Privy Seal is to make a statement on the question of Laos, since the Foreign Secretary has just made an important statement in

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another place, in which he has communicated to their Lordships the latest British proposals on Laos, including the fixing of the date for the cease-fire—
Mr. Speaker: Order. There must be some limit to this process, because at present. I do not see why this is a point of order. Therefore, I ought not to let the hon. Gentleman state these facts here. I think that is right. What is the point of order?
Mr. Warbey: May I, then, seek your guidance, Mr. Speaker, about how this House can preserve its rights as the democratic assembly of Parliament, which should be entitled to receive the first statement on important matters of Government policy? When such statements are made in another place, a similar statement should be made simultaneously in this House.
Mr. Speaker: The difficulty is that the Chair is not here to give guidance in that sense, to make abstract pronouncements. It has the task of ruling on matters of order when they arise. I cannot regard any of this as constituting a point of order.
Mr. S. Silverman: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not the desirable custom of the House, to which you are entitled to pay regard, that when the Government make an important statement, on an important matter that is causing general anxiety, they make it simultaneously in both Houses? Why should not that custom be applied in this case, especially as the Foreign Secretary sits in another place?
Mr. Speaker: I do not challenge what the hon. Member is saying, but I do not think that it is a point of order for the Chair. However, I see movement on the Government Front Bench. Mr. Heath.
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Edward Heath): Perhaps I can help you and the House, Mr. Speaker. The explanation is that there was on the Order Paper a Question No. 55, by the right hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson) which, I was assuming, would be reached. I was proposing to answer it, but it was not reached. I am quite prepared to answer it now.
[Mr. A. Henderson: To ask the Lord Privy Seal whether he will make a further statement on the situation in Laos and
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Vietnam and on the discussions with the Soviet Government on the British proposals.]
Mr. Gaitskell: In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has said, Mr. Speaker, is it not possible for him to answer the Question, as he has offered to do so?
Mr. Speaker: I am instructing myself in the matter. I believe it to be wholly impossible and quite improper, but I hope that he will answer the Question.
Mr. Heath: May I, then, make myself both possible and proper by turning to the statement, Mr. Speaker.
In Laos, the Pathet Lao/Kong Lae forces continue to retain the military initiative and have made some local advances. They seem, however, to have made no real effort to mount a major offensive, although the threat remains that they may do so.
On 16th April, the Soviet Government replied to the United Kingdom proposals on Laos. Much of the Soviet Government's reply is acceptable, but it is not clear whether they agree to our request for an immediate cease-fire to precede the international conference.
Her Majesty's Ambassador in Moscow has been instructed to seek final agreement on this, and to suggest that the appeal for an immediate cease-fire be issued tomorrow, 20th April, that the International Commission be convened at the same time to verify it, and that the Conference should meet on 5th May.
These negotiations do not, of course, affect the question of Vietnam. As the House will know, President Diem secured a clear mandate with a further term of five years at the election held on 9th April. During the period of the election campaign there were many clashes between the Army and Communist guerillas, and the security situation remains serious.
Mr. Gaitskell: We are obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for volunteering to answer the Question. We are glad to hear that the British Government have made specific proposals on an appeal for a cease-fire and, I understand, the simultaneous summoning of the International Commission. As far as that goes, it is certainly helpful.
May I ask whether, in view of the fact that there appears to be no serious

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fighting going on, he will bear in mind the importance of the Commission returning to the scene as soon as possible and of not delaying unduly or haggling over a particular date for the summoning of the conference?
Mr. Heath: The directions issued to the Commission after it reconvenes in Delhi depend on the agreement of the two co-Chairmen, but it would be our wish that it should go to the scene as soon as possible in order to verify the cease-fire. As I have said, it is being put to Mr. Gromyko today that the conference should meet on 5th May.
Mr. Warbey: Does that mean that, when the appeal for a cease-fire is issued, assuming that there is agreement on it, invitations will simultaneously be issued to other countries who are to be invited to attend the conference on 5th May? Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the ceasefire includes the cessation of military aid to both sides—from the Soviet side to the forces supporting Prince Souvanna Phouma and from the American side to the forces supporting Prince Boun Loum?
Mr. Heath: Invitations will be sent out at the same time for the conference to be held on 5th May. As I have pointed out, in our opinion the conference depends on the cease-fire having become effective by that time. We hope that the cease-fire will be as wide as possible.
Mr. S. Silverman: Will the right hon. Gentleman satisfy the House that further progress in this matter will not in any way be embarrassed by the recent and present events in Cuba? Has he any statement to make on that subject?
Mr. Heath: I have no statement to make on that subject today.
Mr. Brockway: The right hon. Gentleman said that he hoped that the ceasefire would be as complete as possible. Will he say specifically whether the invitations will be given both to Russia and to America to stop supplying military equipment in Laos?
Mr. Heath: We want both sides, on the appeal for the cease-fire, to meet and agree about the terms of the cease-fire and to implement it at once.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Considered in Committee [Progress 18th April].
  [Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]

  AMENDMENT OF THE LAW
  Question again proposed,
  That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the national debt and the public revenue and to make further provision in connection with finance, so, however, that this Resolution shall not extend to making amendments of the enactments relating to purchase tax so as to give relief from tax, other than amendments making the same provision for chargeable goods of whatever description or for all goods to which any of the several rates of tax at present applies.

BUDGET RESOLUTIONS AND ECONOMIC SITUATION
3.46 p.m.
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Anthony Barber): Few people of consequence today would deny that the Budget provides one of the principal ways in which the Government can and should influence the economy. As one distinguished American economist put it:
"You have to find a real crackpot to get an economist who doesn't accept the principle of Government intervention in the business cycle."
Of course, that is right, and before I deal with some of the Budget proposals I want to say something about the state of the United Kingdom economy, because the level of activity and the various factors affecting it are the elements which principally determine the direction in which the Budget has to operate.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has already given the factual position in considerable detail, and I would only add that, however one interprets it, there can be no doubt that, taking the country generally, the economy is now operating at a high pressure. Over the last twelve months there has been a very large increase in total employment. During 1960, the increase in total employment amounted to

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no less than 395,000. That was a greater increase than in any of the preceding ten years, and several times as big as the average increase over those years.
All these people have been absorbed, and still the unemployment percentage in the middle of March was only 1·6 per cent. Over a great part of the country it was 1 per cent. or little more, and in those areas the number of unfilled vacancies was greater than the number of unemployed.
Measured by these various indicators, the pressure of demand for labour has increased distinctly over the last year, in spite of the difficulties of the motor industry and of the consumer durables industry. In many areas there are shortages of labour, especially of skilled labour, and it is clear that there has not recently been any effective redeployment of labour.
I can well understand that natural inclinations, and, indeed, the reasons, which prompt employers to keep men on even though demand for their services has gone down. But it cannot be denied that this is bound to lower the responsive power of the economy, so that if we have, for example, an upsurge of export demand, the firms which could meet it are liable to find it impossible to get the extra labour they need. It was against this background that my right hon. and learned Friend reached the conclusion that he should budget for an increase in the above-the-line surplus and a relatively small overall deficit in the Budget as a whole.
The right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) said yesterday that the Budget was irrelevant to the urgent problems of the nation. I am bound to say that as a description of his speech that criticism would have been particularly apt. In view of what he said I will tell the Committee the basic purpose, the essential strategy as it were, of this Budget.
My right hon. and learned Friend put the matter succinctly when he said that its broad effect must be counter-inflationary, that existing encouragements to investment must be maintained, that room must be found for increased exports, and that additional incentives to effort and initiative must be provided. This Budget shows the determination of the Govern-
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ment to ensure that booming domestic demand does not stand in the way of the increased exports which we all know we must have.
Under my right hon. and learned Friend's proposals the overall deficit this year will be reduced to under £70 million. That is a remarkable figure. It is lower than in any Budget in the last ten years, and it means that the Government are resolved to keep our financial house in order. Furthermore, there will be no question of the Government themselves contributing to inflationary pressure because of their borrowing needs. As the Committee knows, we do not expect to have to seek any new money at all from the gilt-edged market. If additional restraints are needed, we shall have available the power to use one or both of the new economic regulators.
Perhaps I could put the position best in question and answer form. What does the Budget do for exports? [HON. MEMBERS: "Nothing."] If hon. Gentlemen will listen they will get the answer. The clear answer is that we shall ensure that our ability to sell more abroad will not be vitiated by excessive home demands and unchecked rises in cost. What are we doing for saving? The answer is that the whole Budget is designed to help to secure price stability and to strengthen Government credit. What are we doing for investment? The answer is that despite the net increase in taxation the special assistance provided by investment allowances remains unchanged. What are we doing to provide incentives for effort and initiative? The answer is clearly given by the Surtax proposals, and I will come back to them in a few moments.
This is not a Budget of easy hopes. It is a Budget of resolute purpose, and that purpose, if right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have not yet gathered it, is to contain inflation, to moderate the growth of home demand, to encourage exports, and to maintain confidence in sterling both at home and abroad. It would have been all too easy to have taken a gamble, to have provided for some net decrease in taxation this year, to have kept one's fingers crossed, and to have hoped that, despite the consequent overloading of the economy, the export position would

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somehow have righted itself and that the balance of payments would have improved.
Judging by the noises coming from the other side of the Committee, it might be that there are right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who would have taken that course, but all I would say is that whatever might be the immediate superficial attraction of taking such a course it would have involved for this country a degree of risk which we simply cannot afford to take. When I say that, I am not thinking only in terms of statistics, but in terms of the effects of such a course on the livelihood of men and women and also on the level of employment.
Leaving aside for a moment the actual Budget proposals—I will come back to them later—I think that, as regards the aims of economic policy, there is a good deal of agreement between both sides of the Committee, and, indeed, among all sections of industry. Our objective is, and must be, an expanding economy, but no Government, Labour or Conservative, could risk putting an increased rate of growth before other vital objectives such as a healthy balance of payments position, full employment, stable prices, and so on.
It is a truism that an expanding economy, at any rate an economy such as we have in the United Kingdom, connotes substantially increased imports both in the form of raw materials for industry and also for direct consumption by an increasingly prosperous society. We cannot for long continue importing more and more unless there is a commensurate increase in exports. I do not think that any hon. Member of the Committee would disagree with that, but the 64,000 dollar question is: how are we to achieve it?
We have in this country few readily available national resources, apart from coal. We have no great pool of unused labour on which we can draw, and the result is that whether one believes in a predominantly free enterprise economy, as we on this side of the Committee do, or whether one believes in more nationalisation, as right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite do—
Sir Kenneth Pickthorn: Some of them.
Mr. Barber: —there is only one answer to the problem which confronts this country, and that is to make better use, more efficient use, of what is available.
In other words, at least so far as the 1960s are concerned, the key to prosperity lies in productivity. Increased productivity is a prerequisite of an improved international competitive position which we must have if we are to achieve the upsurge in exports which is necessary to sustain an expanding economy. But it is an illusion to think that productivity alone will do the trick. Of course, increased productivity will lead to a reduction in real costs, but it will not lead to increased prosperity if it is frustrated by an excessive rise in money incomes.
There are two relevant factors, the rate of increase in productivity, and the rate of growth of money incomes. The first, the reduction in real costs, that is, technical improvement in the broadest sense, is not a matter which any Government can control merely by issuing directions. The pace of improvement in this field depends in the main on the determination and the general outlook and spirit of industry, management and labour alike. It depends—and I am sure that the Committee will agree with me—on the strength of the desire of managements to improve productive techniques and on their willingness to invest capital on a big scale for future returns. It also depends on the willingness of individual employees as well as their leaders to co-operate fully in the introduction of new methods.
With full employment, with the number of unfilled vacancies exceeding over a wide area the number of those out of work, there can be no excuse for resisting the introduction of new labour-saving machinery or techniques or—and this is equally important—for insisting that the same number of men should operate a new and costly machine which could be operated by fewer men.
Of course, in this matter of technical improvement the Government can either help or hinder. They can create a general environment which is either more favourable or less favourable to the process of productivity improvement, but it is not just a matter of organising a great flood of demand. Indeed, it is very easy to

1181
have too much demand so that there is no reserve capacity available to take up and exploit new opportunities.
The objective of all Governments since the end of the war has been to avoid both recessions and an overloading of the productive system. I think that it is fair to say that, although there has been some variation in recent years, the usual tendency has been to have too much demand. Our objective is to reduce the scale of variations which are bound to occur from time to time. The Government can also help to improve productivity by giving positive encouragement to firms to invest. We have done this through the initial and investment allowances which have now become not only an important but a well-established feature of our fiscal system, and one of the most encouraging features of the present situation is the very considerable investment plans of productive industry.
But it is not enough to have conditions which favour an increase in real productivity and. consequently, a reduction in real costs, if this is not translated into the trend of money costs. We shall not make progress in this country unless, over a wide field of products and services, we have the edge on our overseas competitors. The most up-to-date plant and machinery and techniques will be of no avail to our international competitive position if the consequent increased productivity is out-matched by increased money incomes.
This brings me to the second factor, to which I referred a few minutes ago—the rate of growth of money incomes, in which the biggest and most important element is wages and salaries. If these rise too fast other incomes will follow suit. In 1958 and 1959, although the upward pressure on costs never quite stopped it was very much slowed down. But the same cannot be said of last year. In 1960, there was a definite acceleration in the upward movement. In many industries there were considerable wage increases; in others there were shorter hours—and in some there were both wage increases and shorter hours.
There has been another significant development. The interval between successive settlements has been shortening. It is certain that we have not yet seen the full effect of these changes upon prices. If this process of increased costs
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continues at its present tempo the rise in prices is bound to accelerate, and our international competitive position will inevitably suffer.
Mr. Harold Wilson: Yesterday, I drew the attention of the Committee to a report in a morning newspaper that on Budget day one person made £1 million in capital gains through the marketing of his property shares. The Chancellor has refused to do anything about a capital gains tax. Can the hon. Gentleman go on with this homily on behalf of a Government who do nothing about a situation in which an individual can make £1 million tax-free in a single day?
Mr. Barber: I do not know what the circumstances of the case were. For all I know it may have been the case of a man who had built up a company and was then floating it on the market. The right hon. Gentleman gave us no details.
Speaking personally, I would be very loath to see a tax imposed on capital profits which a roan made as a result of building up his own business. My right hon. and learned Friend dealt with this matter in his Budget speech and explained why there were no provisions for dealing with other forms of capital gains. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that this is a matter of great importance, and that it would be the height of folly to ignore the effect on costs of salaries and wages taken together.
It may be said that it is all one-sided, but it is an element contributing to prices. Wages and salaries, taken together, are more than twice as important as the gross trading profit. I have figures here if they are wanted. These are elements which any Government—and, I would have thought, any Opposition—would wish to take into account.
Mr. Douglas Jay: If the hon. Gentleman has the figures, will he state the percentage rise in wages and salaries, on the one hand, and dividends and profits, on the other, last year?
Mr. Barber: I do not have the figures of rises over the year. What I have got is evidence of the significance of wages and salaries, as distinct from other items, in their effect on the price level. In the context of what I am saying, that is a relevant factor.

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It is true that in 1958 and 1959, broadly speaking, the increase in money incomes brought with it an increase in real incomes on pretty well the same scale, but with the prevailing scale of wage and salary increases this cannot continue to be the case. Whatever may be the arguments for or against such increases there is no point in ignoring the consequences.
A short time ago I said that increased productivity depended largely on investment, and investment, in its turn, depends on confidence in the future. We cannot expect manufacturers to go in for major capital expenditure if they fear that there may be a sudden drop in demand for their products. It is sometimes suggested that the Government's own policies have had a discouraging effect on industry because, in trying to keep the economy in balance, they have, on occasion, had to do things to reduce demand.
I would ask those businessmen who make this charge to cast their minds back to the fluctuations of the inter-war years and to the damaging impact of the uncontrolled trade cycle of those times. I cannot believe that any businessman in his right senses could prefer the consequences of the inaction of the inter-war years to the consequences of the more active policy which we have been following in recent years. Having put the matter in over-simplified, black and white terms, I must point out that it is a fair criticism to say that the means of control available to successive Chancellors have been very far from complete or perfect. My right hon. and learned Friend described these imperfections in his Budget speech, and I need not go over them again.
I would, however, remind the Committee of the consideration given to this matter by the Radcliffe Committee, which dealt with the efficacy of various means of regulating the economy and came to the conclusion, first, that monetary measures require to be supplemented by fiscal measures, and, secondly, that the use of fiscal measures has been handicapped through the necessity of confining taxation changes, at any rate in normal times, to annual Budgets. It was no part of the Committee's business to consider in detail what changes might be made in our fiscal practice, but it concluded:
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"the more flexible the fiscal weapons can be made, the less will it be necessary to rely on monetary measures."
My right hon. and learned Friend has, therefore, proposed two changes to improve this situation. The Committee already knows the details of these proposals, and my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade spent some time examining them yesterday. I want to make only four brief points about them.
First, whatever views hon. Members may have on the merits of these two proposals it is undeniable that they will go a long way to remedy the difficulties which I have mentioned and to make possible a more rapid and flexible adjustment of economic policy to deal with varying economic conditions.
The second point concerns the application of the employer surcharge to Northern Ireland. As hon. Members will have observed from the Financial Statement, the surcharge, if imposed, would apply to Northern Ireland employers. In Northern Ireland, the National Insurance scheme is operated on exactly the same basis as in Great Britain. This is essential if the free mobility of labour between the two parts of the United Kingdom is to be preserved, and my right hon. and learned Friend has been concerned to see that his new proposals do nothing to upset this. But hon. Members will also have seen from the Financial Statement that the proceeds of any surcharge deriving from employers in Northern Ireland will be paid not into the United Kingdom Exchequer, but directly to the Northern Ireland Exchequer.
Thirdly, the proposal for the employers' surcharges envisages that although there will be no distinction between employers by reason of industry, type of employment or geographical location, it will be possible to have different rates in respect of different categories of employed persons, that is to say, different "descriptions" of insured persons in the sense of the National Insurance Acts. Consequently, the surcharge, if and when it is imposed, could be at one rate in respect of all employed persons, or there could be different rates for men and women and boys and girls. The Ways and Means Resolution permits this, and the Finance Bill will also be drawn in such a way as to allow it.
Mr. Leslie Hale: Will the hon. Gentleman try to deal with two points which were put yesterday, but were not answered? First, if we put a surcharge on labour in an area which already has high unemployment—and Northern Ireland is one example—what is expected to result? Secondly, if we put a surcharge on firms which have skilled fitters, a large number of unskilled labourers, and also disabled persons, who are employed so that the firms may discharge their liability—and this is the situation with most industrial firms—whom does the hon. Member think will suffer first by the application of this surcharge?
Mr. Barber: One of the disadvantages, which, I think, was explained by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade yesterday, of the hire-purchase controls, is their selective effect on certain industries. It is perfectly true that when we get what I might call for convenience a regulator which has a widespread effect we get disadvantages the other way, but it is inherent in a regulator of this kind that it should operate over the whole of industry.
I have no doubt that aspects of the sort which the hon. Gentleman has put forward would be well in the mind of my right hon. and learned Friend when he was considering its possible use, but I thought it was right to tell the Committee that it will be possible to draw up the proposal in such a way that any group of employees for whom, as it were, a different stamp exists may either be excluded or may have a reduced rate applicable to them.
Mr. Jay: I am only anxious to elucidate the facts. Will the surcharge apply to Government Departments themselves—the Post Office, the Royal Ordnance factories, the Royal Mint and the Civil Service?
Mr. Barber: It will apply in every case where the employee comes within the National Insurance Acts and there is a contribution paid in respect of him by the employer, unless the person concerned happens, for the reasons I have mentioned, to come within one of the categories under the National Insurance Acts which is excluded, or which pays
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a reduced rate. It will certainly apply to the Government service in the same way as to industry.
Mr. Charles Loughlin: Would the hon. Gentleman clarify one point for me? I understand that the payroll tax, as imposed on employees of Northern Ireland, will by some mechanism go back to the Government of Northern Ireland, and I assume that this is intended to be used by the Government of Northern Ireland for the purpose of relieving the unemployment position in some way. Is that the position? If so, what about those areas in England which will be in precisely the same position? Are they to have no relief?
Mr. Barber: It is not for me nor for my right hon. and learned Friend to decide what use is made of this money by the Northern Ireland Government. The point is that arrangements will be made—I imagine that they will be incorporated in the Finance Bill—for the sums in question which come from Northern Ireland to be paid direct to the Northern Ireland Exchequer, and it will be for the Northern Ireland Government to decide how they use the funds.
Mr. H. Rhodes: It is very nice to know that already, on the third day of the Budget debate, this is regarded as a surcharge—because that is precisely what it is. I would ask the Minister whether there will be a Schedule in the Finance Bill excepting those who do not pay.
Mr. Barber: My right hon. and learned Friend and my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade have described this new device in considerable detail, and I was only trying to answer the two points mentioned, on which, apparently, I had not been quite clear.
Mr. Rhodes: Will this affect Remploy?
Mr. Barber: The hon. Gentleman must wait and see what the detailed proposals are. I have explained in some detail how they work. The hon. Gentleman said that this was the first time that this had been referred to as a surcharge. I would point out that my right hon.

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and learned Friend said in his Budget speech:
"My second proposal relates to a special surcharge on employers."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th April, 1961; Vol. 638, c. 808.]
There is nothing new in this.
Mr. H. Wilson: Are we not entitled to have an answer? We get all this turgid repetition of economic sermons, but here is a new proposal in the Budget. We have not had the usual things that used to happen until the President of the Board of Trade intervened on the second day to explain what was going on. We want a clear answer. My hon. Friend has asked whether this will apply to Remploy. The question has been asked of the hon. Gentleman, and he should know. The Government should have thought of this before they introduced the proposal. Can we have an answer now?
Mr. Barber: I am sure that if the right hon. Gentleman looks in HANSARD tomorrow he will see that I have made it absolutely clear that this applies to all those in respect of whom there is a stamp under the National Insurance Acts, unless particular categories are excluded altogether, or unless there is a provision for a reduced rate. Consideration of this matter of whether any National Insurance categories should be excluded, or whether there should be any reduced rate, is for the consideration of my right hon. and learned Friend, if and when he introduces it, and the House will have an opportunity of considering it. These are all matters which we shall have to consider on the Finance Bill. I have made the position absolutely clear.
Mr. Wilson: The hon. Gentleman must not mislead the House. We were told that this would be introduced by Statutory Instrument. Statutory Instruments cannot be amended by the House. They are subject to affirmative Resolution. If, when it comes in, Remploy is included, the House will have no power to amend it. The hon. Gentleman had better tell us now, in this debate, what will happen about Remploy.
Mr. Barber: The power which my right hon. and learned Friend seeks will be a power granted to him in the
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Finance Act. When we come to consider the provisions of the Finance Bill, long before consideration is given to the laying of a Statutory Instrument, the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends will have an opportunity of going into all these matters. I do not think that, without repeating myself, I can be more clear about the present position. I certainly would not want to become even more turgid.
My fourth point is a short one. It seems to have been forgotten by some hon. Members who have spoken in the debate that the variation of Customs and Excise duties can be operated not only in a restraining direction, but also in an expansionist direction, involving reduction in duties with immediate effect and at any time after the date on which the powers have been taken.
I should like to say something about some of the changes in taxation. I was very surprised indeed that of all the Ways and Means Resolutions which were moved on Budget day the only one selected by the Leader of the Opposition for a Division was that concerning the vehicle Excise licence duties. After all, it was the right hon. Gentleman, when he was Chancellor, who increased the duty on every gallon of petrol in a year when Government expenditure on new roads amounted to only £3·2 million. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Hon. Gentlemen opposite do not like it. I hope that they will bear in mind that the comparable estimate for this year is not £3·2 million, but £88 million. What my right hon. and learned Friend is proposing must, by any standards, be considered a moderate increase in the annual licence duty.
Quite apart from that, I ask the Committee to consider the proposed increase against the history and background of this part of our fiscal system. The plain fact is that in the past few years motor licences have been remarkably cheap. [Laughter.] I wish that the right hon. Member for Huyton would listen to the point I am making, although it is good to see him laughing occasionally.
If we consider, first, the licence on a typical private car—say, a family saloon—in the early days of motoring this was as often as not a 12 h.p. car, or sometimes a little more than 12 h.p. From 1921 to 1935, a period of fourteen years,

1189
the licence duty was £1 per h.p., so that the typical family motorist paid £12 a year for his licence. Then, there were five years until 1940, during which the rate was reduced to 15s. per h.p. Then followed the five wartime years, during which is was raised to 25s. per h.p. In 1947, the flat rate of £10 was first introduced. This was increased in 1953 to £12 10s. Therefore, over the past eight years, the family motorist has been paying little more—in some cases, actually less—for his licence than he paid thirty or forty years ago.
Mr. Loughlin: What about the petrol tax?
Mr. A. Woodburn: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the reason for introducing the flat-rate tax was that it was done at the behest of the motor manufacturers so as not to hold back engine construction and design, and that, instead of a tax upon horse power, the tax was transferred to petrol and to Purchase Tax? It did not mean that the motorist was getting away with his taxation.
Mr. H. Wilson: It is much higher now.
Mr. Woodburn: The tax of £10 was introduced as a nominal tax and the main taxation was transferred to the other items which I have mentioned.
Mr. Barber: It is obvious from what I said earlier that the right hon. Gentleman is quite right. I am thinking back to 1951 in referring to the increase in the tax on petrol. All I am saying is that by any standards, an increase of £2 10s. per year for the normal private motorist for an annual licence is a fairly moderate increase. I am surprised that anybody should deny this.
Mr. Wilson: The hon. Gentleman keeps talking about the increase in the petrol tax in 1951, on which the present Chancellor of the Exchequer waxed eloquently. To get the matter in perspective, will the hon. Gentleman say how much higher the petrol tax is today than it was in 1951, not only in terms of yield, but in terms of the tax per gallon? Will the hon. Gentleman now tell us the rate in 1951, when the Chancellor attacked it, and the present rate, with all the increases introduced by Tory Chancellors?
Mr. Barber: The right hon. Gentleman says "all the increases introduced by Tory Chancellors". In effect, there has been only one increase. The tax went up at the time of Suez and came down again afterwards. In 1951, the Leader of the Opposition increased the petrol duty by 4½d., from 1s. 6d. to 1s. 10½d. per gallon. In March, 1952, the duty was increased to 2s. 6d. and it is still 2s. 6d. per gallon. The point I am making—[Interruption.]—which right hon. and hon. Members opposite do not appreciate, is that it is extraordinary that out of all the Budget proposals the one selected by the Leader of the Opposition on which to divide the Committee was one concerning an increase of £2 10s. for the private motorist and something additional for commercial motorists. The increase is less than half the cost of a new tyre. And that is what the Committee divided about on Monday evening.
As for commercial vehicles, the rates of duty have remained virtually unchanged for nearly thirty years. In present-day conditions, if one sets the cost of the licence alongside all the other costs—the cost of the vehicle, maintenance, insurance, fuel, wages of the driver, and so on—it is clearly a very small element in the total cost of operation. Even so, it has been said that the increased licence duty on commercial vehicles will add marginally to the general costs of the wide range of goods and services. That is not necessarily to condemn it as a way of raising revenue.
There has been considerable discussion in recent months about the merits of indirect as compared with direct taxation. A good many of us, not only on one side of the Committee, feel that in principle there is a good deal to be said for raising at least part of the national revenue by indirect taxes levied at a low percentage rate on a wide range of goods. That, in effect, is what the licence duty on commercial vehicles does. No increase in taxation can ever be painless, but I believe that this part of my right hon. and learned Friend's proposals comes about as near to the painless raising of an additional £25 million as one is ever likely to get.
Before I leave the matter of motor cars, I should like to make one further point. Yesterday, the right hon. Member for Huyton made a specific proposal

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to abolish altogether initial allowances for motor cars. The consequences of this would be to deny to many deserving people—commercial travellers, doctors, district nurses, farmers, and so on—a tax allowance in respect of equipment which is necessary to them and an allowance which is already less favourable than that given for other forms of business plant and machinery. I cannot agree that to do as the right hon. Gentleman suggests would be either right or equitable.
Mr. H. Wilson: In the special case of doctors and others, their running and other costs could be allowed for on proved use. What we complain about is the open-ended subsidy from the Chancellor of the Exchequer to business firms when there is virtually no check on the use of the cars for business purposes. The allowance could be abolished for at least the public companies. For the professionals, it could be abolished and they could be given a generous running allowance on any case that they could prove, or it could be dealt with in the way I suggested yesterday.
Mr. Barber: Others outside this Committee will be relieved to know that the right hon. Gentleman has modified the proposal which he put forward specifically and without qualification.
Mr. Wilson Mr. Wilson indicated dissent.
Mr. Barber: If the right hon. Gentleman has not modified it, the consequences which I stated still stand.
In this Committee, the most controversial proposals which my right hon. and Learned Friend has made are those concerning Surtax. Several hon. Members opposite, including the right hon. Member for Huyton, have done their utmost to tie up the health charges and the National Health Service contributions with the Surtax reductions. To do that is merely to close one's eyes to two highly relevant factors. [An HON. MEMBER: "Tell them in Doncaster."] The first is that the reduced Surtax rates will not be payable until January, 1963. The second is that in a full year the total cost of the Surtax reductions will be almost covered by the increase in Profits Tax. No hon. Member would dispute the contention that one of the
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relevant criteria for judging any change in taxation is its effect on the economy. The primary purpose of the reduction in Surtax on earned incomes is to provide greater incentive for those men and women in the higher income brackets without whose enterprise and initiative the country would not survive as a great trading nation.
A few moments ago, an hon. Member opposite said, "Tell them in Doncaster". I represent that thriving industrial town. Nobody knows better than I how much we in this country depend upon the millions of people who are impersonally lumped together by the statisticians under the heading, "Manual wage earners". But to deny that their prosperity is inextricably linked with that of the manager, the research scientist and the technologist, is simply to fly in the face of reality.
Hon. Members opposite consider it outrageous that an executive earning £5,000 a year should keep £3,600, or that a man earning £10,000 a year should not pay more than £4,000 in tax. That view ignores the basic fact that there are many men and women who have a great deal to contribute, but who are deterred by high taxation from making their full contribution. [An HON. MEMBER: "Nonsense."] It is not only in their own interests, but in the general interest, that they should be encouraged to give of their utmost.
Another effect of the cut in Surtax will be to secure greater mobility among these people. Offers of higher rates of pay will now be much more effective in persuading people to uproot themselves and their families to go to new and challenging jobs and to accept the risks that such changes involve.
Some hon. Members yesterday referred to last month's National Institute Economic Review, in which an international comparison was made of the burden of taxation. One set of figures was particularly significant. It was pointed out that, taking the case of a family man with two small children with a gross income of £5,000, the American still retains about 68 per cent. of the next slice of additional remuneration, the West German keeps about 60 per cent.—and the Swede and Briton retain only about 40 per cent. The effect of my right hon. and learned Friend's proposal will be

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that the United Kingdom earner at the £5,000 level will in future keep not 40 per cent., but 66 per cent. of the next slice of additional remuneration. I do not consider that as being unreasonable.
A lot has been said about the position of those who do not pay Surtax. Tan years ago, after the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition had increased Income Tax in his one and only Budget, a married man with two children, earning £11 a week paid £28 16s. 9d. a year in Income Tax—or 10s. a week. Today, he pays nothing. A man in the same circumstances, with a wife and two children to support and earning £15 a week paid £83 8s. in tax after the right hon. Gentleman's Budget—or more than 30s. a week. Today, he pays only £17 5s. 10d.—less than 7s. weekly. Therefore, do not let hon. Gentlemen opposite say that under a Conservative Government nothing is done for those who do not pay Surtax.
Mr. H. Wilson: The hon. Gentleman is misleading the House. Who is the "he" about whom he is talking? Before making the comments that he has, the hon. Gentleman should have looked at an Answer given last week by the Financial Secretary, in which the Treasury calculated that, for the same income taken by the hon. Gentleman in the examples which he has just given, a man who earned £10 a week then would today earn about £12 or £13 a week—and the tax on £12 or £13 a week is heavier now for this same man than the tax on his earnings of £10 a week in 1951.
The hon. Gentleman was, therefore, misleading the House by comparing £10 in 1951 and £10 today, especially since my figures are exclusive of the big increase in National Health and National Insurance contributions. The hon. Gentleman's figures are bogus.
Mr. Barber: Perhaps it would be useful to take into account not only the changes in direct taxation, but also the changes in the cost of living. In 1945, the average industrial wage was £4 16s. 1d. per week. In 1951, it has risen to £7 1s. 1d. If we take into account, the rise in the cost of living during those six years, and the effect of direct taxation, the actual purchasing power of the average industrial worker's salary rose
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during that period of Socialism by only about one-seventh.
By contrast, during the last ten years, the average industrial wage has increased from £6 8s. a week in October, 1950, to £14 10s. 8d. in October, 1960. In taking into account these two factors—the change in the cost of living and changes in taxation—the purchasing power of the average industrial workers wages has risen not by one-seventh, but by over one-half. That, I suppose, is what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton meant by what he yesterday called "the debilitating effects of Tory freedom".
Mr. G. R. Mitchison: It would appear that the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that today more people are exempt from taxation as a result of Conservative rule. I recommend him to study Table 28 of the last Report of the Inland Revenue Commissioners, where he will find that since the Conservatives have been in power, more, instead of fewer, people are paying tax.
Mr. Barber: That might have something to do with the fact that under the Conservative Government incomes have gone up. [Interruption.] With these facts in mind, I simply do not believe that the country will subscribe to the view of the Opposition that my right hon. and learned Friend's Surtax proposals are unreasonable.
So much for those who pay only Income Tax. What of those who pay no direct taxation at all, neither Income Tax nor Surtax? Yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton sought to analyse the difference between a Conservative Chancellor and a Socialist one. He said:
"The Socialist Chancellor looks at the whole complex of national wealth and income and asks in what areas, from the distortions and injustices of the economic system, we find those in the greatest need. He makes them—the old, the disabled, the war pensioner and the sick—the first charge on the national wealth."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th April, 1961; Vol. 638. c. 994.]
Those are fine words, but is the right hon. Gentleman really proud of what his Government did for the old-age pensioners, who, of course, pay no tax? [Interruption.] The miserable record of the Labour Government is well known. [Interruption.] I do not propose to depress the Committee by going over it again.
Mr. James Callaghan: Was the Economic Secretary in the House this afternoon when the Assistant Postmaster-General said, in reply to Question No. 42, that the Government could not give cheap television licences to old people and the bedidden? Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the country will not like the fact that the Government can give relief to Surtax payers, but can give no relief whatever, even by way of cheap television licences, to these unfortunate folk? That is debauched, degenerate and degraded.
Mr. Barber: The country will draw its own conclusions from two facts: first, under the Labour Government the purchasing power of the pension actually fell by 10 per cent.; secondly, during the last ten years the retirement pension has been increased on four occasions and, while the cost of living has gone up by one-third, retirement pensions have been increased by over 90 per cent. I was taking the period, a fair one to take, from the time when there was a pension of 26s. a week for a single person.
Mr. Jay: Although the hon. Gentleman is uttering a lot of platitudes, he must not mislead the Committee. He must realise that when the Labour Government came into power the pension was 10s. By the time we went out of office it was, in money terms, 30s. a week—a large rise.
Mr. Barber: Nevertheless, for the last four of five years of Labour rule, the purchasing power of the pension actually fell. No one, least of all the old-age pensioners, would deny that things have gone much better during the Conservative Government's reign of office; and the reason we have been able to do better than the Labour Government is not because we were not more desirous of helping the old, but simply because our society has grown more prosperous, and the relief it is proposed to give to the Surtax payer is considered by many people to be long overdue.
Hon. Members: Oh.
The Temporary Chairman (Mr. James H. Hoy): Order. If the Minister has the Floor it is only right that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen should give him a hearing. Perhaps a little interruption
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can be permitted, but we cannot have this continual interruption.
Mr. Barber: I am grateful, Mr. Hoy.
I believe that this reduction will help to make Britain, which is in the main a free enterprise country, still more prosperous. The Opposition are opposed to the Budget because it is geared to a predominantly free enterprise system, and hon. Gentlemen opposite do not believe in free enterprise.
Yesterday, we listened to the usual engaging and entertaining speech from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton, but I thought that towards the end of his speech he was getting a little weary of his own speech and that he was running out of material. We had a lot of well-worn references to striped toothpaste and American motor cars, references to advertising and even a dissertation on the 11-plus. There was one startling omission from his speech; he did not once make mention of any extension of nationalisation, not even a passing reference to it.
Mr. Mitchison: My right hon. Friend said nothing about cheese, either.
Mr. Barber: The hon. and learned Member says that his right hon. Friend said nothing about cheese. It is as well to know that there is at least one person in the Labour Party who puts nationalisation on a par with cheese. The right hon. Member for Huyton would be, I know, the first to admit that nationalisation is the core of his policy. As he put it the other day:
"Labour's social and economic objectives can be achieved only through an expansion of public ownership."
—what he ominously termed the "weapon" of public ownership. The reason for the glaring omission is not far to seek. The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that the policy which endears him to the Labour Party will never endear him to the electorate for the simple reason that it is totally irrelevant to the problems of the mid-twentieth century.
I believe that the British people will support my right hon. and learned Friend's proposals not only because they face up to the problems of today, but also because my right hon. and learned Friend has had the courage to do what is right.
4.41 p.m.
Mr. G. R. Mitchison: The Economic Secretary has only himself to blame if he had a rather "rough house." He started with an almost record collection of platitudes and ended with an almost record collection of inexactitudes. I think we really might leave him at Chat.
Some time ago the patient with whom we are concerned today was induced by some of the hon. Gentleman's hon. Friends to go on a razzle at the time of the General Election. The patient has been rather ill since then. The other day the family physician, the Minister of Health, bled him a bit, and yesterday we had a diagnosis of his condition from Dr. Jekyll, the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am not certain that the house physician has added very much of value to it today.
I thought that Dr. Jekyll had really got quite a number of the main points and that he was more or less right about what was the matter with the patient. He did not mince his language. He pointed out that one of the troubles was rising prices and that another was that the index of industrial production had been flattening out, and that all this had the usual effect on our balance of payments. He reached the not very startling conclusion that the question was whether our economy was
"sufficiently resilient and flexible to cope with the demand of the home market and the need for increased exports."
I think that we can accept all that.
Dr. Jekyll pointed out, too, that there were some things very wrong in our approach to our economic problems. He was not
"satisfied that…the two sides of industry are tackling this problem with sufficient energy."
He said:
"There are too few scientists and technologists."
He also said:
"Labour relations, standards of management, techniques of selling are, in some cases, below what is needed in the present day world."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th April, 1961; Vol. 638, c. 800–1.]
With none of those do I find much disagreement. Indeed, it is what we have been saying to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Chancellor from this side of the House for some time past.
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I think that the simplest way to see the state of the patient is to compare him with other people who appear to be a little healthier—in other countries. We had the figures about production the other day to pinpoint and illustrate the difficulties which the country is in, but, since the Chancellor finds the main difficulty in the balance of payments and the question of exports, we might perhaps look also at the figures relating to trade.
I will not give them in very great detail, but the position is that since the Tory Government came into office the United Kingdom's share in world trade has dropped steadily every year. In 1951, it was 21·9 per cent.; in 1952, 21·5 per cent., and so on, until in the third quarter of last year—this is the latest figure available to the public as far as I know—it was only 15·4 per cent. The shares of competing countries have been rising, some of them to a very startling degree. The West German share has nearly doubled. This is the result of the Tory Government's treatment of industry in this country.
The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Reginald Maudling): Is the Labour Party therefore recommending that we should follow the policies of the West German Government, which are entirely different from our own?
Mr. Mitchison: It is not only Germany, nor am I recommending that we should follow the policies of half a dozen other countries to whom the same thing applies. What I am saying is that the best proof of how ineffectual the Tory policy has been in this matter is to look at the facts in a comparison with other countries, instead of trotting out again and again the platitudes to which we have just been listening from the Economic Secretary, for they simply do not fit in with the facts.
We can take another test, the volumes of the total exports of countries. Let us take the nine countries which are the main competing ones. They are not only in Europe; they include Canada, the United States and Japan. If we look at the list, this country has the lowest increase, and the highest increase happens to be West Germany's. That is not to say that we should adopt West German methods or policy. They must regulate their own affairs. There is no particular reason for us to do that any

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more than there is for us to adopt the policy of the seven other countries which are concerned in the comparison. Each one has done better than we have.
Surely it is about time that we considered what our own Government have been doing, and with what scant success. That is the lesson that I want to draw today, because to listen to members of the Government one would sometimes think that they really believe that they have done quite well. They have done very badly indeed by comparison with other countries. That is surely the best test. After all, we would expect that scientific advances if properly applied all over the world would lead to an increase in the general standard of living and to an increase in the volume of our manufactures and that the development of world understanding and technical advances would lead to some increase in world trade.
All that we can reckon on. But to find, when it comes, that the share that we get of it is the smallest of any comparable country surely indicates even to the complacent right hon. and hon. Gentleman whom we see on the Government benches that something is very wrong indeed. I would agree that something was very wrong indeed. I think that the Chancellor recognised it. In fact, Dr. Jekyll made quite a good diagnosis; but when we come to Mr. Hyde's remedies, they are really somewhat curious and remarkable for the state of affairs which he himself has diagnosed.
What is it suggested that we should do to meet this position? We are, first, to rake in a certain amount of money. Out of this, £50 million was raked in the other day by the Minister of Health. The family physician bled the patient to start with. It should be remembered that £50 million is about 40 per cent. of the net increase which is proposed in taxation. I shall say something about that method of taxing people in a minute or two.
The next substantial item in the list for this year is the increased duty on oil. I see the point of that, and I have no particular criticism to make of it so far as it goes. The motor vehicle duties are another £25 million. For this year the Purchase Tax is a small amount, and we have another small item for television
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advertisement. That is the position this year. The one large personal tax which is to be applied to people is the poll tax imposed the other day by the Minister of Health on the National Health Insurance contributors in respect of the National Health Service. If we go to next year, we get an increased amount for the poll tax imposed by the Minister of Health. We get, again, the oil tax, the motor vehicle duties, Purchase Tax up now by £45 million, and again the other items that I have mentioned.
When we look at the concessions this year, all we get is the concession, to which I am sure none of us has any objection, in respect of the fixed amount allowable against tax for National Insurance contributions. But next year we get the somewhat startling concession of £58 million allowed to Surtax payers. I will say something about that in a moment. If we take a full year, the main change is that that amount is rising to no less than £83 million, so that if we look at the personal taxes put on, we balance on one side the Surtax concessions and on the other the National Health poll tax. Those are the two personal taxes that have come in this year.
Let us see what, in fact, is happening about Surtax. I think we might remember, first, that Surtax payers, as a body, represent rather less than 2 per cent. of the working population. Next, we might see what is to be the result of the concessions that are now made to them. If we look at Table 77 in the last Report of the Inland Revenue Commissioners, which are the last available figures, we see that the result of those figures—no doubt slightly modified from one year to another—is to be that out of the total earned income liable to Surtax nearly two-thirds becomes exempted, and out of the total income liable to Surtax more than two-fifths becomes exempted. In fact, if the right hon. and learned Gentleman were proposing to remove Surtax altogether he is now doing about half the job. That is, of course, the combined result of the additional £2,000 earned Surtax allowance—if I may so call it—and the application of the earned income reliefs.
Looking at the matter in terms of individuals, if we take a man who has

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an earned income of £6,000 a year, he is to get, according to the Financial Statement, about £650 off his Surtax liability, and his Surtax liability is, of course, now to be quite small. That very considerable concession of £650 comes to this. If we translate it into terms of National Health contributions, about 300 people would be paying an extra 10d. under the poll tax arrangement to balance against the one man who gets this Surtax concession.
Let us look at it another way round. It is a very curious concession, too. I had always supposed that in our tax arrangements we tried to give more to those who had the liability of children at the educable age. I hope that we are all at an educable age, but I mean the statutory age for those purposes. Curiously enough, the amount goes down, the more children the married person has. If one takes the trouble to look at the tables given in the Financial Statement one finds that the married man without any children, and with an earned income of £6,000 a year, gets £675 off. If he has one child, he gets £659 off, if he has two children he gets £644 off, and if three children, £624 off. It is a curious sort of concession that works out like that.
Mr. E. G. Willis: It is like the rest of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's figures.
Mr. Mitchison: That, of course, is not the only objection which I have to this tax, but I want for a moment to turn to what the object of this arrangement is supposed to be. It has, of course, nothing whatever to do with exports.
As my right hon. Friend pointed out it might just as much be concerned with imports as with exports, and with home trade as with trade abroad. It is supposed to be an incentive to people and a remedying of an injustice. I can see no justice in allowing people who are making a very handsome income so large an amount and at the same time imposing on people who are only getting ordinary weekly pay packets a poll tax which is to be difficult enough for many of them to carry and for which there seems to be no reason whatsoever.
It is time, I suggest, that the Committee listens again to the one piece of concrete evidence which we have ever
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had on this question. It was in the Second Report of the Royal Commission on The Taxation of Profits and Income. The Commission said:
"Such rates"—
these are Surtax rates—
"are criticised as tending to repress effort and to discourage the taking of risks, Probably they do, to some, though quite an unascertainable extent. All heavy taxation may be said to have this repressive effect just as, though again to an unascertainable extend, it tends to stimulate effort by diminishing the individual's disposable income."
Of course, that is perfectly true in conditions of heavy taxation.
"But if we are asked to infer from this that the heavy rates have any special disincentive effect upon the receivers of the higher levels of income, so as to justify a shifting of the existing weight of taxation from these ranges to lower levels of income"—
that is to say, to justify relief to the Surtax payers at the expense of putting it on a national poll tax—
"we are bound to reply that we see no evidence that the higher income earners are specially affected by disincentive."
And then the Commission gives reasons for its conclusions and summarises them like this:
"But in the meantime, we should not conclude either from our own observations or from such evidence as we can extract, that the high managerial post, for instance, is declined because its rewards are not thought worth obtaining or that the artist or the professional man abates his energies because tax has made it not worth while that he should exercise them to the full."
That was said by the Royal Commission some time ago, and I have never seen any definite evidence to the contrary. I think that it is a very fair and balanced statement of the position. I have never heard anybody who had to deal with this statement say anything, in effect, to contradict it, or to qualify it.
Now we have the Government saying, "There is a great injustice here. There is a great disincentive. There is, in fact, the special disincentive effect", which is exactly what the Royal Commission denied, "and, therefore, we shall, at the very time when we are putting on a poll tax on the population, reduce the levels of Surtax, and do it at a time when we admit that our country's efforts by way of production and world trade are falling behind those of our competitors, at a rime when we recognise that more money has to be collected from the public at

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large, and that a bard Budget, or a fairly hard Budget, is called for by the circumstances of the case."
What a moment to do this thing. What sense of justice is there in a Government that behaves like that as between the body of taxpayers as a whole and the 2 per cent. of the working class represented by the Surtax payers whose income is earned? That is a very remarkable effort on the part of the Government as far as I can see.
Let us see what else the Government propose. They propose, among other things, to deal with business expenses in a manner that reminds me of someone trying to pick up a red hot poker. Are they really so afraid of their business friends and supporters? Could they not have a little more courage in the matter?
Take one very simple matter, the cars about which we have been talking. It seemed to me that the Economic Secretary was hopelessly confused between investment allowances and initial allowances. But let that pass; it was not the only confusion in his speech. Take the very simple example of cars. No steps must ever be allowed to be taken merely to let the public know that Mr. X, who is driving a Rolls Royce down the street, is driving one belonging to the Y company and not to Mr. X. It is, after all, quite a simple matter to have that stated publicly on the car. But no, it would be too shocking. They could not do anything of the sort. We have heard so much about the Government's attitude towards business expenses, and what amuses me is that they think they are doing something this time—I only hope they will succeed.
Now I turn to the question of the two regulators. The first point is this. If one is to apply a regulator in the hope of dealing with a foreign exchange crisis, one should do it quickly. It does not seem to me that either of the two regulators suggested is suitable or, indeed, possible from that point of view. Moreover, the men of Zurich usually get very active in September, and in September the House is not sitting. These have to have an affirmative Resolution of the House. Does the Economic Secretary, or the Chancellor, suggest that the House will have to be called back in September to get this done? If so, it will certainly not be done quickly.
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If the object of these regulators is to deal with a foreign exchange crisis—and such a thing is by no means remote from our present position—then I say that, among other things, they are both slow and unsuited for the purpose.
Mr. Julian Ridsdale: Surely these are in addition to the Bank Rate.
Mr. Mitchison: I thought that the Bank Rate had been dropped tacitly by the Government as a concession, for once, to the wisdom of the Radcliffe Committee, who pointed out what a blunt instrument it was and what bad effects it had in other directions. I should doubt, if the Bank Rate is as high as it is already, whether it would be a very suitable weapon for dealing with an emergency of the kind that I have in mind.
After all, I am dealing with these two regulators because the Chancellor, having diagnosed the illness of the patient, said that these were necessary to deal with any sudden critical condition—that is to say, as I see it, with a foreign exchange crisis. I say that they are quite unsuitable for the purpose. The payroll tax is open to two objections and I will mention them shortly. Both objections were stated clearly by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition the other day, but there is no reason why they should not be restated, because I think that hon. Members opposite have omitted to deal with them.
The first of them is this. The payroll tax is to operate uniformly all over the country, just as the stipulation about special deposits from the banks is to operate evenly all over the country. No distinction is to be made between advances in a depressed area, and other advances, just as in this case the payroll tax is to be imposed irrespective of the state of employment in the area in question. It is imposed irrespective of the industry, but, subject to the point that was made by the Economic Secretary just now, that it could be done category by category within the Ministry of Labour descriptions. We shall have to follow that out in Committee.
I would simply say that it seems to me extremely unlikely that anything of that sort can be made sufficiently flexible by that particular distinction. I am glad

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that the Government recognise the weakness of their own instrument by trying to provide for the possibility of doing that, but I think it is a most difficult thing to do.
As for the regional aspect, unemployment in this country now is very largely a local phenomenon and it is very bad indeed in many parts of the country. It would be a terrible thing if, because of some misconception of national necessity, the Government thought that this payroll tax should be imposed, and that it should be imposed, say, in Scotland at the same time as it was imposed in the Midlands.
Mr. Christopher Chataway: Does the hon. and learned Gentleman oppose other incentives to investment for the same reason? An investment allowance or increased depreciation allowance would equally encourage the substitution of machinery for manpower. Would he be opposed to that being applied all over the country?
Mr. Mitchison: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I shall make some suggestions about investment allowances, but they do not seem to me to raise this question. Perhaps when the hon. Gentleman has heard what I have to say he will find that he agrees with me in that respect.
Let me go on with this local question. What is the other reason for it? We have had references to the mobility of labour. We have had today something of the sort from the Economic Secretary. He said that this would encourage people to jump about from one part of the country, or from one industry, to another. This should be considered. The reason a man does not move out of an area of unemployment into an area of employment nowadays is only too often that he cannot find a house to move into.
The Government, when they talk about the mobility of labour, have only themselves to blame if the present position is that council housing has been cut by the Government to such an extent that people are being forced to buy their houses and are to that extent tied to the place where they are working at the time. That has been the policy of the Government year after
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year, and it still is. In the course of the last five years they have succeeded in halving the rate of council housing, and, at the same time, they have pushed up the rate of building private houses for sale. That is all very well, but it is the worst possible way to encourage the mobility of labour.
As to the transfer from one industry to another, there I agree that the matter depends very largely on the employers in the receiving industry taking proper steps, if it is a case of skilled labour, to get apprentices and to deal with them in a way which we should all wish they did, but which, in fact, they have not succeeded in doing. It is, therefore, no easy matter, and there are other obstacles to the mobility of labour.
Turning to the tax itself, this is a rather remarkable sort of tax in this instance as between one person and another and one industry and another. If, in fact, anything of this sort were to be done by an employer—that is to say, if he contemplated taking special steps to keep workmen and pay more for the purpose—I am certain that it would only have been introduced after very careful consultation with the trade unions concerned. No doubt, the right hon. and learned Gentleman has done something of the sort, but I should like to know what consultation there has been, or is to be, with the trade unions on this question of the payroll tax. It seems to me a most dangerous instrument in the hands of the Government.
Curiously enough, yesterday the Evening Standard came out with an article called "How tough are the Chancellor's new weapons?", with a portrait of the Chancellor at the side to make quite clear whom they meant. The article said:
"Smaller businesses will quickly find a way around it. As one businessman said to me today: 'We can always come to an agreement with employees. Some would gladly pay 4s. a week out of their own pocket for a while rather than face dismissal.'"
Is that what the Government contend should be done? I do not know whether this conversation ever actually took place, but it clearly represents the ideas of someone or another about what is likely to happen. It does not seem to me at all an improbable consequence. Do the Government say that that kind of

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thing is, from their point of view desirable, that to get round it in that way is to the national advantage?
I turn from that to the second form of regulator. The second form of regulator is to impose an increase or to allow a decrease on all Revenue Customs Duties and on Purchase Tax. There is, of course, always the blissful prospect that beer may suddenly become cheaper in the national interest, but it sounds as if it is more likely to be more expensive in the national interest. The same goes for whisky and other things, but, leaving those controversial drinks aside for the minute, what about the general Revenue Duties? What is the position about all those in relation to G.A.T.T.?
As I understand it, the position is that, at the moment, there are conversations going on, particularly with the Six, with a view to freeing trade. Indeed, the right hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned in the course of his speech that this was one of the things he wanted—a reduction of tariffs. Hitherto, there have been certain Customs Duties which have been bound for periods of three years at a time—not changeable—and the last of these periods expired, I believe, towards the end of last year. We know that, at the moment, there are conversations about that going on. Are these duties in any circumstances to be capable of alteration by the regulator—the duties which have been bound in past years and the duties which may be bound in future?
To put the matter very shortly indeed, how can the right hon. and learned Gentleman go into these international negotiations, which are, after all, of very considerable importance, holding in his hand at the same time a weapon of the character of this regulator? If he is to tell us that they cannot conceivably apply to any duties with which G.A.T.T. is concerned, it seems to me that the scope of the discussions in G.A.T.T. will be a great deal narrower than it appears to be. All I know about it at present is gained from a leader which appeared in The Times on 28th February, which purported to give a summary of the present position. It is, to say the least of it, a remarkable idea to introduce this regulator just at the moment when these discussions appear to be at a very critical stage indeed.
Mr. Alan Green: It is possible that the hon. and learned Gentleman is overlooking some words which the Chancellor used in his Budget speech, when he said:
"Protective and anti-dumping duties, where quite different considerations apply and international obligations are involved, will be excluded."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th April, 1961; Vol. 638, c. 807.]
Mr. Mitchison: I had noticed what the hon. Member mentions, and I had also noticed the Chancellor's use of the words "Revenue duties" in this connection. Unless I have misread the scope of these negotiations, they seem to me to go a great deal beyond protective and antidumping duties, and the hon. Member will no doubt recollect that if there is to be a question of the abandonment of any duty, there have to be compensating provisions under the Agreement. My view of the matter—and I want to be corrected if I am wrong, and I therefore ask the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to tell us about that when he addresses the House—is this. Is there any possible connection between the duties which are to be the subject of the regulator and those which either are or may be within the scope of the G.A.T.T. negotiations. If so, what has he to tell us about them?
I turn from these two points to say a word or two about the Budget as a whole. It seems to me a most inadequate budget for the purposes which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has in mind. It contains nothing that, so far as I can judge, is going to be of the least use in promoting our export trade, by comparison with the home market, in which the right hon. and learned Gentleman, no doubt for some reason, finds a certain menace. There is nothing. When we look at the particular measures, one wonders even more. Take Profits Tax, for instance. I can see the point of the increase in the Profits Tax, but if we were to make it for some useful purpose, surely what we want is to provide for investment by having a different rate of Profits Tax for distributed and undistributed profits. But that is not what is being done. We are now back on the one rate, it is applied to bodies like the co-operative movement, and the increased rate of Profits Tax does not differentiate, as we used to do,

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between the invested and the distributed part of the profits.
Again, we are told that a capital gains tax is impossible. I say at once that I should look at the Surtax concessions differently—I do not say that I could accept them, but I would look at them differently—if they were accompanied by a capital gains tax. We were told by one hon. Member yesterday that shares have not gone up very much lately. That, surely, is missing the whole point. Let us take the case which my right hon. Friend referred to, that of a gentleman called Mr. Joseph Gold, who offered on the Stock Exchange a comparatively small part of a property company in which he held, and so far as I know still holds, two-thirds of the shares. He offered 4s. shares at 14s., which was no doubt what he thought they were worth. Within a day or a couple of days, they doubled in value on the Stock Exchange, and a man who was, at the time of the offer, a millionaire, became a double millionaire in consequence.
Is not that something that ought to be taxed? Ought we not to tax that before we start to levy a poll tax on the grounds that the National Health Service costs too much? Ought we not to tax that before we refuse practically any concessions to people like the invalids, the old and so forth? Not a word about additional Income Tax reliefs. We are told that more money is required. Surely, capital gains of that character are the right place to get it? In that case, the gains depends upon what has been happening about land, and if I were the Chancellor it is land and the value of land at which I should look as a taxable object in this country at present.
What has happened is that this Government have got rid of the betterment and compensation provisions in the 1947 Town and Country Planning Act. They are obliging local authorities to pay full compensation. I see the point of that, but they have made no provision whatever for allowing the local authorities to get any proper betterment in return, and the result is that land is shooting up in value all over the country and the local authorities themselves are being made to pay more. We are having quick and feverish rises in the prices of
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building sites and in the prices of buildings in the centres of towns, and none of this is being touched for the purposes of taxation by the Government. If we ask what are they going to do now, when they have provided for full compensation, what about the other side of the picture, what about betterment, no answer is forthcoming?
I say that if, in fact, that has happened, it is up to the Government, unless, I suggest, they intend to continue this monstrous injustice about land, to find means of providing that the appreciation of land values should be taxed. It is a glaring instance of capital gains. The Uthwatt Committee suggested that it should be taxed, and the Minority Report of the Royal Commission on Taxation also suggested that it should be taxed, and I take that as the most obvious instance at the moment. It is land and property shares which have been the main obstacle in this matter.
I have not dealt and I have not tried to deal with all the points which one has in mind in connection with the Budget, but I would sum up like this. A capital gains tax at present is certainly called for, and, in addition to that, if we are to deal properly with exports, shall have to have, in addition to present provisions, something extra in two directions. First, I suggest that we must have discriminatory investment allowances. We must have allowances which will vary with the national importance of the project in which the investment is being made. We have suggested that in one Finance Bill after another, and everything happening at present confirms my view that something of the sort is inevitable in the long run and it ought to be tackled now.
What has happened about land has called attention to the need for some form of planning. Planning in connection with land and in connection with industrial sites ought to go further than it has gone at present and it ought to be directed to promoting the export trade and the interests of exporters. I do not believe that the planning of industrial buildings will be as useful as it might be so long as industrial development certificates are confined to factories and not required for offices.
I throw out these suggestions because it has been said from the other side of

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the Committee that, when we criticise this, that and the other, we make no suggestions. It is not our business to do so. But everything in this Budget is so inadequate and so unsuitable for the condition of the country as the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself has diagnosed it that we are bound to say something. I go further and I say that, if ever there was a Budget which reeked of social injustice, this is that Budget. To follow the poll tax and what was done about the Health Service by making at this time, in the country's present difficulties, the concessions the Chancellor has made to Surtax payers seems to me to misunderstand the proper duties of Government.
It is not the duty of the Government continually to favour privilege. It is not the duty of the Government continually to remit to the rich and to deny to the poor. Yet that, in effect, is Tory philosophy at present, and that is the sense and thought of this Budget.
Mr. Dan Jones: On a point of order, Mr. Hoy. Very many hon. Members who have sat in the Committee for three days now are anxious to make a contribution. Am I in order in requesting that hon. Members should contain their speeches within a maximum time of twenty minutes?
The Temporary Chairman: No, it is not in order to do so, but since so many hon. Members would like to take part in the debate, I think that the whole Committee would be grateful if those who speak would shorten their speeches somewhat.
5.21 p.m.
Mr. R. Gresham Cooke: We are grateful for what you have said, Mr. Hoy, particularly since five hon. Members on the other side of the Committee took 150 minutes between them yesterday.
Mr. Mitchison: I do not want to take up further time, but may I say that if I did take too long I am really sorry. I am apt to do so, and I may have done it. I apologise.
Mr. Gresham Cooke: No, I was not blaming the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison). I was remarking about something which
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happened yesterday. However, I will say to the hon. and learned Member that I hope he appreciates that we on this side gave him a very fair hearing today although he said some very rude things about the Chancellor and about the Budget. We gave him a much better hearing than was given to my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary. [HON. MEMBERS: "It was a better speech."] It seems that when the Economic Secretary brings out a few facts they are not listened to in silence or in the way that we listen to such things on this side of the Committee.
The hon. and learned Member for Kettering took up the cry which, no doubt, will be reiterated throughout the country. He tried to link the National Health Service contributions with the Surtax remissions. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] The National Health Service changes come in straight away, and the Surtax remissions do not come in until 1963. The two things are totally different.
Mr. John Diamond Mr. John Diamond (Gloucester) rose—
Mr. Gresham Cooke: I must ask the hon. Member to forgive me. I have quite a lot to say, and I do not wish to waste time.
The hon. and learned Member tried to show also that there is no disincentive in the Surtax at its present level. He himself spoke about the non-mobility of labour and the working man being tied to his post. The executive is just as tied to his home in a residential area today because of the very small attraction there is to him in moving from one job to another, since the additional amount of pay hardly meets the cost of putting up his curtains in his new house. This will be put right by the remissions.
I wish to draw attention to the position of the Chancellor in Parliament. It always seems to me that the Chancellor is like a man trying to sail a boat in a fluctuating wind across a heavy tide. The fluctuating wind of economic forces makes him alter course from time to time. The heavy tide which moves him sideways is the tide of Parliamentary opinion as expressed particularly in Questions. One has only to listen for a few days in the House of Commons to hear demands for more pensions, more education, more this and more that. I

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suppose that we shall hear demands for space research soon. All these demands force the Chancellor each year to increase his expenditure.
Only three years ago, the Chancellor faced a Budget of £5,500 million. Today, my right hon. and learned Friend faces a Budget of £6,500 million. The Chancellor, of course, is the apex of our financial system, but nevertheless his actions are really the result of the forces brought to bear upon him by the whole country and by the House in particular. If the demand for expenditure is very heavy, taxation goes up, as it does today. If the export effort is weak, the Chancellor's position vis-à-vis other countries in the balance of payments is weak.
Will this additional public expenditure and high taxation go into costs in industry? That is the pertinent question we have to ask ourselves. We are, I think, very fortunate in this country in two ways: first, in not having a turnover tax, as some countries have, a tax on everything which goes straight away into costs; and second, in not having such heavy social security charges as are levied on industry in, to take two examples, France and Germany. In the last ten years, we have had to face a rise in expenditure and taxation from £3,600 million to £6,500 million this year. Taking central Government expenditure with local government expenditure, our total national public expenditure today represents over 30 per cent. of the national income.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sir Edward Boyle): I thought I understood my hon. Friend to say that the Government were spending £6,500 million this year. They are budgeting in tax for between £6,400 million and £6,500 million, but total Government expenditure will be £6,002 million.
Mr. Gresham Cooke: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. That agrees with the point I make, and I quite accept that it is total tax which is nearly £6,500 million. The point still remains that the total tax added to the local rates means that we have an overall taxable total of over £7,000 million, which is more than 30 per cent. of the national income today.
Does tax go into costs, and does it affect our export prices? Obviously, the fuel tax, the petrol tax and the diesel oil
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tax and all the rest of direct charges go straight into costs, and so does the increased employers contribution for the National Health Service. Indirect taxes go into costs to the extent that they affect the standard of living. For instance, if there is an additional tax on cigarettes, this affects the standard of living which, in course of time, affects wage rates because so many wage rates are tied to the standard of living. Thus, the total amount paid in salaries in the last ten years has gone up by 100 per cent., although, of course, many more people have shared in the increase in salaries. But that has been brought about by an over-high rate of Surtax, because some companies have tried to compensate the executive to bring his salary back into some relation with what he got before the war. It is extraordinary but nevertheless a fact that the salary of Dr. Beeching, which is looked upon by so many people as being a fantastic sum, is actually equivalent—having regard to tax and the fall in the value of money—to a pre-war salary of £3,500.
Mr. Loughlin: But he gets £1,700 free of tax.
Mr. Mitchison: Was it taxed before or after the Budget?
Mr. Gresham Cooke: High Income Tax and high Profits Tax, in my view, tend to make industrialists want to push up their rate of profit slightly in order to take care of the higher tax and, therefore, industry generally tends to push up prices. So while I am quite sure that this Budget will damp down claims for higher salaries in the Surtax ranges, through the remissions which have been given, there will be a tendency to push up prices—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—marginally, yes—through the extra Profits Tax.
A company which has a profit of £300,000 and will now have to pay additional Profits Tax of £7,500 a year will try to find that in some way or other, and, I think, will tend to try to push up prices somewhat. So I ask whether heavy taxation is one of the factors which tend to make our exports sluggish.
I should like my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary to initiate a survey within the Treasury during this year to

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find out to what extent our tax burden of £6,500 million a year goes into the costs of industry. It would be an interesting exercise, and we could use the knowledge acquired when making our judgment of the position for next year.
This brings me to the subject of the two new economic regulators. I am in favour of a possible 10 per cent. on Purchase Tax and Excise Duty, but I cannot say that I am in favour of the payroll tax. It seems to me that it will be an addition to costs without being an inducement to manufacturers to make their labour more mobile. Take the example of the motor industry. In the last three or four months it has been going through a very difficult period, but in the knowledge that probably things would improve by about February. I cannot believe that, for the sake of the extra 4s., firms would wish to get rid of men for whom they knew they would have employment again in the future.
I should like sincerely to congratulate the Chancellor on his efforts to amalgamate Income Tax and Surtax into one scale. I think that must come. It would be an advantage to the Treasury to have Surtax under P.A.Y.E. with a quicker collection, in the some way as Income Tax is collected. I consider that a heavy rate of Surtax is inflationary. Many Surtax payers do not save the money they ought to over the summer months, and on 1st January they disinvest savings or capital in order to meet payments due in January, February and March. It might be possible to bring Surtax under the same code arrangements as P.A.Y.E. The taxpayer could agree a provisional code number with the Inland Revenue officials. I am glad that the Chancellor is assimilating the rules of Income Tax and Surtax, and in that connection some useful suggestions were made in a leading article in the Economist this week.
The most serious task facing the nation this year is undoubtedly the need to increase exports. The hon. Member for Kettering referred to our failure to increase our exports as fast as other nations, but we must not lose sight of the fact that our exports are increasing year by year and have done over the last few years. Every great nation is increasing its exports, but we are not doing so as fast as many, including Ger-
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many and Japan. On the other hand, in the last five years our exports have increased faster than those of the United States of America. The older countries have not increased their exports as fast as the modern ones. We all agree that there is a great deal to do. I wish to advance four or five reasons why we are being held back in the matter of exports, and I wish also to make some suggestions about how the position may be remedied.
The first disadvantage is our geography and our language. The Common Market has been going forward with exports faster than any area in the world. If a Dutch businessman, sitting at his desk, wants a new machine or a parcel of goods, or a spare part, very quickly, he has only to ring up a German factory where the requirement is put on a lorry that night and will be in the businessman's factory the next morning. What is the position between Holland and ourselves? The businessman would ring up a manufacturer in the Midlands who would send the consignment to Harwich. It would stay there a day and then be put on the ship where it would remain for another day. It would be unloaded at the Hook and then it would have to be delivered to the businessman. It would, in all, take about four days. I think the most practical thing we could do to get over the woeful deficiencies in our communications with the Continent would be to allow the enterprisers of the Channel tunnel to go ahead. I do not think that would cost us anything. There might be a guarantee called for, but no expenditure. It would be the best link we could make with the Continent and would improve our exports.
Then, of course, there is our language. It is all right in America and in certain other parts of the world, but it certainly makes for difficulties in Europe. In my view, every sales executive ought to learn two foreign languages. If he cares to answer this point when he replies to the debate, perhaps my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary will make clear that the cost of learning a language, if it is paid by a company, is a charge which can be set against tax—the cost of sending an executive to a language school.
We must make more use of our scientific and engineering graduates. Yesterday, the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) quoted some figures

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about the machine tool industry which I will not deny. The 90 leading companies in the machine tool industry have between them only 25 engineering graduates. While the percentage of draughtsmen in the machine tool industry in Germany is 6·6 per cent. of the total personnel and in Switzerland it is 7·2 per cent. of the total personnel, in the United Kingdom the figure is only 3 per cent. We must make more use of our technical ability. Having been interested in the matter, I think that one of the reasons why we could not over the last few years make a car as successful as the Volkswagen is because the foundry practice in this country for casting an air-cooled engine was not good enough five or ten years ago. We have a long way to go in some matters.
If possible, we must improve our links with the Common Market. The stumbling blocks have been agriculture and horticulture. I was impressed recently by being told by a farmer who specialises in beef and corn that he had got his costs down to a stage where he was fully competitive with France and Germany, and so he did not mind whether this country went into the Common Market. I think that a useful augury.
Top management mainly works very hard in this country, but we cannot be sure about all top management. Some executives must get up a bit earlier in the morning. When I go to Germany I am always amazed to find that one can pick up the telephone at 8 o'clock or 8.30 in the morning and be sure of contacting the managing director at his works. Recently my daughter travelled across America and stayed with the families of American executives. She told me that the executives are in their offices by 8.30 in the morning and seldom leave before 6.30 in the evening. They take their lunch in the office.
I know that in the North of England most executives get to the office at 9 o'clock, but there are too many in London who do not get there very much before 10 o'clock. I know that because I have seen some of them on Woking Station at 9 o'clock. However, I think the Surtax remission will encourage the younger executives to get on and get up a little earlier—
Mr. Loughlin: Give them alarum clocks. It would be cheaper.
Mr. Gresham Cooke: —because they will have more chance of saving instead of paying out to the Special Commissioners.
Coming back to my previous point, I do ask the Economic Secretary whether the influence which high taxation has had has been one to make our exports sluggish over the past five years, because if that is so we really have not got to take on any other commitments like space research at the present time, particularly as I read in the papers that the space rocket programme of the Russians is costing the equivalent of the whole of our defence programme at present.
This is not a crisis Budget as was hinted at by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) in his article in the Financial Times last Monday. It is not a crisis Budget at all. But if we want to take our proper place in the world we have to show more aggression and more energy in world markets. If, on the other hand, we want to enjoy the slow tempo of England and our long weekends the only answer will be for us to impose import controls and make ourselves a completely self-contained autarchy, and I think that would be very disastrous.
I congratulate the Chancellor of the Exchequer on his Surtax proposals, which will help our executives and, I hope, make them more energetic, but while for my part I have some doubts about our heavy commitments, I hope that the Treasury will not in 1961 to 1962 commit this country to any more expenditures which would mean an increase in the tax burden in the future.
5.42 p.m.
Mr. H. Rhodes: Before I come to the main part of my speech, let me through the Economic Secretary say to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that I saw a pensioner receiving treatment this morning in one of our largest pensioners' hospitals and the first fruits of one of the Chancellor's actions in the Budget, of his remitting taxation on the compensation which the pensioner is getting from Germany. It has made all the difference to that man. I congratulate the Chancellor on doing it.
It looks to me as though we have now entered a time when instead of arguing about the trade cycle we argue about

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the inflationary cycle. The facts come round year by year with almost monotonous regularity, and very often in the same way. We hear the story about our being at the bottom of the league, about safeguarding the £, the necessity to cut back consumer goods expenditure; we have hire-purchase restrictions brought in: and then, of course, on the other side of the medal, the easing of credit, the easing of hire-purchase restrictions, investment allowances and all the rest.
Nobody, in principle, disagrees, because these problems are understood by the majority of thinking people, and one can recognise the inflationary movement when one sees it—if, for instance, one is putting up a small extension, as I was towards the end of last year at my works. One day four bricklayers laying bricks, next day there is not a bricklayer on the site, and then one goes to the contractor and asks, "What has happened to the bricklayers?" He says, "Oh, a speculative builder up the road swiped them all. He has been down here and offered them 1s. 10d. an hour more and they have gone." That is inflation.
I have a friend who is a gamekeeper. His name is Joe. Every now and again I go up to the moor behind our house and I talk to him because he is an interesting chap. Gamekeepers very often are, you know.
Mr. Joseph Slater: Poachers.
Mr. Rhodes: Precisely.
On this occasion we stood with our elbows on the fence and just watched, and in between chewing grass he said, "I can tell thee quick as anybody when there is going to be a credit squeeze." I asked, "How do you make that out, Joe?" He said, "I am slick as Selwyn Lloyd in telling when there is a credit squeeze needed." I said, "Come on, tell me, Joe. I am wanting to know." So he said, "My pitch is watching this main road in the morning early and watching it at night, and I see busloads of workers coming out of Lancashire and busloads of workers coming out of Yorkshire, and they pass one another here. They are all going to do similar jobs, and it is quite obvious that manufacturers can do a bit of poaching, too."
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It struck me that he put his finger right on the button. There it was. All the waste that goes with a shortage of labour.
"Mobility of labour", the President of the Board of Trade says, "between firm and firm." Well, we have lost workers on our side who go over to the same kind of jobs in Yorkshire; and they lose people on their side who come over to our side to do the same kind of jobs; and for this situation the Government must accept some responsibility. They cannot claim credit for having spurred on the economy and done the job well at election time, as they do, without taking some of the blame. They have got to take a bit of the rough, too.
The Economic Secretary is a young chap whom we all like.
Mr. Loughlin: Speak for yourself.
Mr. Rhodes: Yes, he is a pleasant lad and has made a fair sort of try with the Tory Central Office brief this afternoon—it could not have come from the Treasury, or if it did I have a poorer opinion of the Treasury than I had before I started. But he makes a big mistake. Despite his efforts, despite his good humour and all the rest for which we like him, we on the back benches on this side of the Committee—and over there on the back benches, too—say to him that we regard anybody who calls into aid arguments from the economics pre-1951 as a second-class brain. I issue that as a friendly warning. It is agreed by pretty well everybody that that 1951 was a long time ago. I give the hon. Gentleman this word of advice as somebody who would be relinquishing his place in Parliament. I think that it will stand the hon. Gentleman in good stead when he is on his way to promotion if he drops such out of date arguments.
In November, 1958, hire-purchase controls were eased. The Prime Minister went to the Cotton Board conference and his explanation of Government policy and intention was so effective that £30 million were made available to the industry during that time. The incidence of hire purchase and the Bank Rate during the intervening months from November, 1958, up to the present, is interesting.
The banks went in for hire purchase immediately after it was obvious that

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there was money to be made in the hire purchase field. Personal loans were given. There was a time when it was possible for a man living in my village to leave his work, go to Coventry, walk into a bank there where he was not known and be able to obtain a loan of £300 without any security. That, at least, has now been changed, and the banks now give loans to regular customers only. But these were the sort of things which gave impetus to a gradual upsurge of activity in the production of all consumer goods and no one was very particular about whether they were needed or not.
The accent was put on cars. The President of the Board of Trade urged higher production and entry into the American market without giving any thought to the hard bargain he should have struck with the Americans when it came to the export of our woollen goods. It is high time that we got rid of this political chicanery and really got down to the facts and to the economic needs of the time. If an industry has one hand tied behind its back, as we have in our woollen industry in the American market, it is no use a Minister giving us a lecture, as the Economic Secretary did this afternoon, on how to improve export efficiency. We know damn well that the Americans have an arrangement with the Japanese. We know that it is these things that distort the economy.
Many people in this country have a vested interest in inflation. Can anyone deny that? If we look at the prices on the Stock Exchange and the yields against those prices, can we believe that there are not thousands of people who have an interest in inflation? Does not the land speculator have an interest in inflation? That point has been laboured sufficiently. The speculative builder has an interest in inflation, too, has he not?
Mr. Stratton Mills: Did the bricklayers have an interest in inflation?
Mr. Rhodes: Everybody has an interest in inflation. Does the fellow who has an interest in monopoly care two-pence about inflation? He can get round all these problems. Does the chap who has to do with a price maintenance product have an interest in inflation? On this subject of people who have a vested
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interest in the prices on the Stock Exchange, I should like the Economic Secretary to tell the Chancellor that working people now are intelligent enough to make their own assessment of a situation in which within twelve months prices on the Stock Exchange have doubled and their own wages have gone up by only 7½ per cent. We must take into account this element of their reaction before the Government start exhorting anybody or flagellating anybody in order to spur them on. There must be an accepted basis of agreement on social practice before we can move forward to a productivity we all so covertly desire.
Sir John Barlow: The hon. Member is quoting the value of shares on the Stock Exchange to make his point, but no doubt he saw the other day a pamphlet issued by the London Stock Exchange which showed that the total value of all shares and securities during the last year had been reduced slightly. They had not doubled in value as the hon. Member suggests.
Mr. Rhodes: All right. Let us make it eighteen months. It does not alter the validity of the argument.
Mr. Stratton Mills Mr. Stratton Mills rose—
Mr. Rhodes: The hon. Member will have an opportunity to have a crack at me later on.
What about the people who are outside the privileged group that I have mentioned? Large stores perhaps have an interest in inflation, and perhaps those who have large stock inventories wish to keep up the state of inflation as well. The power of these people is terrific, but what about the other businesses who for a long time have been struggling along on low margins? What about them when they are faced with a Budget of this kind? Many of our industries, including the one in which I am engaged, have been on a competitive basis for a long time.
Let us consider the tax on fuel. I do not take it lightly. I do not accept it on the same basis as that of many of my colleagues. If it is virtuous at one time to conserve labour and how to use it economically to reduce costs so that we can compete in the world markets, it is equally right to consider it in the same way at other times. Last year we decided to install a completely automatic

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boiler plant. It is up-to-date. We were faced with the question of what fuel we should use, and we came down on the side of oil.
The price we pay for the commodity is £8 a ton. One penny a gallon means £1 a ton. So the Chancellor of the Exchequer has put £2 a ton on the price of oil. We have had an arrangement with a firm in Germany for the swapping of "know-how" preparatory to the Common Market. The firm is in almost the same line of business as ourselves, so perhaps at some time we can fit in together and come to an arrangement. The German firm in München-Gladbach in Western Germany pays £5 a ton for its oil.
Mr. Nicholas Ridley: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a 25 per cent. tax on that same German oil?
Mr. Rhodes: This man still pays £5. I have no argument whatever about the proposition Members on this side have advanced about the price of coal, but does not the example I have given show the ridiculous situation we are in and the kind of piecemeal effort that the Government makes? A fuel policy is wanted. Why should a manufacturer who has spent his life's savings on re-equipment be subject to this imposition by somebody coming to the Dispatch Box and raising the price of his fuel by £2 a ton?
This is the sort of thing the Government should be looking into, instead of thinking in terms of penalising our own manufacturers. The German wool firm imports wool from Australia, as we do. It may surprise the Economic Secretary, who has much homework to do before he will be really on top of that job, to learn that the German firm can get wool landed at its factory in München-Gladbach seven times cheaper than we can have wool unloaded in Manchester or Liverpool. The difficulty of getting ships to come into British ports enters into this. Knowledge of the mess there was in the London Docks last year has had its influence. I beg people who have any influence among working folks to put these economic facts before them, because it is their living. But above all there should be a fuel policy.
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I come now to the payroll tax. When the Economic Secretary was on his feet I asked him what he would do about the Remploy factory. He had not a clue.
Mr. Barber: I stated at least three times very clearly what the powers of my right hon. and learned Friend would be as regards any form of discrimination between categories of employees. Therefore, as Remploy is not a category within the National Insurance Acts, it obviously cannot be considered distinct from any other employees.
Mr. Rhodes: That is the third reiteration of the evidence that the Ministers at least, whether the Treasury does or not, do not understand the implications of this tax. I say that categorically.
Mr. Barber: I want the Committee, particularly the hon. Gentleman, to understand this. If he will tell me what he does not understand about what I have said, I will do my best to clear it up, because I am genuinely trying to provide the answer.
Mr. Rhodes: I am sure that the Economic Secretary agrees that he has a long way to go. In support of this argument we have had the illustration of foreign countries, particularly France. I have diligently read P.E.P.'s book on this, which came out before last year's economic debate. My experience from visiting German, French and Italian factories is that, allied to a payroll tax, there is an element of relief by way of depreciation, Profits Tax or export performance. That is not new, but this payroll tax is new. The Economic Secretary will find that out sooner or later, because it is nothing but a penal tax.
In France depreciation is on a replacement basis. It is on the basis that if someone buys a machine now for £1,000 he is able to take into consideration in twelve months, two years, five years or ten years' time at his own will the replacement cost at the time, which with the inflationary trend we have experienced could well be £1,500 or £1,600.
An effort to stimulate the economy by a payroll tax is absolute and utter nonsense. The Treasury and the Ministers have not got down to the basic principles of what constitutes stimulation in terms of re-equipment. Re-equipment is thought out months and years

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in advance. If a manager is spending money, he ponders if it is to be on a vertical or horizontal basis and how much he can afford to spend. You cannot really influence policy by simply putting a tax of 4s. per week on all employees.
We think that this tax is penal. It will put prices up. What we want to do is to lower prices. I suggest the Economic Secretary should hold up this tax until he has given more thought to it. It should be held up until all its implications have been carefully studied. I ask the Government to consider whether there is anything in the method adopted in Italy of taxation on machines. I say this quite deliberately, because that method is employed and it is argued by many experts that a system of taxation on machines is much better than a pay roll tax.
I also suggest that the Economic Secretary asks his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to approach each industry for which the Board of Trade is responsible and ask it to give him a Report on how many work studies have already been made in each factory in each industry. Such an action will be far more profitable in the long run for exports than this pay roll tax. If the President of the Board of Trade did that, it would stimulate the work study movement throughout industry, which would be far preferable to bringing in a punitive weapon like the payroll tax.
Let the Economic Secretary compare this puerile spur to efficiency with the Russian method. We heard yesterday about the links which the Praesidium of the Supreme Soviet has with research in the Soviet Union. An item in the Guardian caught my eye this week. It stated that a man in Russia, after exhaustive tests, had found that if he planted grain he got four times better results than from sowing it. The Soviet Government has, therefore, issued a challenge to technologists in the Soviet Union to produce a machine, before the end of 1961, which will plant grain. Does anybody doubt that they will get such a machine? Of course they will.
I ask the Economic Secretary to pass these suggestions back to the President of the Board of Trade, and also to think
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more deeply about the payroll tax in relation to industries which are now on a competitive basis.
6.13 p.m.
Mrs. Margaret Thatcher: I feel in two minds about being asked to follow a man who has described his friendship with a gamekeeper, particularly as he described it in such graphic terms, using four and five letters words. Therefore, it might well be proper if I do not follow him too closely in his excursions to the Continent. I hope that he will forgive me if I do not follow his argument, but I have a number of points which I wish to make which have not been gone into in detail before in the debate.
First, I should like to deal with the question of a capital gains tax. My purpose is to make clear the extent to which the Inland Revenue already has powers to deal with speculators—powers which, I believe, are not fully used at present. These powers come under Case 1 of Schedule D, and it is settled law that a person who speculates in land is taxable as a dealer and not as an investor, so that the profit taken from the result of his annual transactions is liable to Income Tax.
When the first Royal Commission on Taxation of Profits and Income reported on this matter, in 1920, it was not then settled that a single isolated transaction by way of sale of land could be treated as a taxable transaction, but since that time it has been established that one isolated sale of land can be an adventure in the nature of trade, and can give rise to Income Tax in the ordinary way.
There is nothing to limit that principle to land. Indeed, it has been extended in many settled cases to include commodities. It has also been extended—this was decided by the Court of Appeal as far back as 1944—to where a person, in trying to sell land, endeavours to do so by way of putting that land into a separate company and selling the shares instead. The profit on the sale of shares is likewise taxable as an adventure in the nature of trade.
That was decided, in a judgment delivered by the then Master of the Rolls—my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary will be familiar with it—in the case of Associated London Properties v. Henriksen and that case has never, to

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my knowledge, been used again by the Inland Revenue. Many hon. Members who have professional contacts with tax matters must know that they have frequently advised, in certain tax schemes, that they depend on the fact that the Inland Revenue will not invoke that case.
I do not know why it has never been invoked, but the average person does not realise the extent of the powers which the Inland Revenue already possesses to tax speculators in land and shares. I do not believe that these powers are being used to the maximum. All that the Inland Revenue has to do is to raise an assessment, and it is the easiest thing in the world for a member of the Inland Revenue office to sign an assessment. It is not then up to the Revenue to prove that assessment; the onus is on the citizen to prove that the assessment is false. Thus, the Revenue has very extensive powers indeed.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a small reference to these powers being extended to a greater extent in future. I welcome that, because it is the speculator in shares that we want to get at—the person who is making a business of buying and selling shares, not to hold them for their income producing properties, but to live on the profit which he makes from the transactions. That is the person most of us would like to get at, and I do not believe that there is need for any change in the law at the moment to enable us to do so.
Certain aspects of the revenue law were suspended for ten years on the directive of a former Chancellor, and this was called the "Chancellor's umbrella". If such a directive can result in the suspension of certain aspects of the revenue law for about ten years, then one hopes that a warning from the Chancellor would result in the Inland Revenue invoking the powers it already possesses.
Secondly, I hope that we are seeing the end of the period when succesive Chancellors seem to think that any reliefs they give in the Budget can be recouped by putting an increasing tax on company profits. This tax is about as high as it should be at the moment, and I find it a little ironic that, when companies
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are being asked to increase exports, they have an increasing Profits Tax, which means that they keep a decreasing amount of the results of the efforts they make in getting more export business.
At a time when they are asked to scrutinise expenses more closely, it is made less profitable for them to do so, because they retain a lesser amount of the result. At a time when they are being asked to carry out more investment in order to re-equip and install modern machinery, the resources out of which they have to do it are being depleted by increasing taxation. Last year, there was a 2½ per cent. increase in the Profits Tax, which has not yet been felt in full. Now, another 2½ per cent. has been added. In two years' time companies will be feeling the increase in taxation imposed in these last two years.
My right hon. and learned Friend and his successors should be warned that in future Budgets it is not right indefinitely to go on transferring the tax burden from individuals to companies. Companies appear to be the "Cinderellas".
Added to what the Chancellor does, in a few years companies will have to bear an increasing rate burden as rates are transferred to some extent from householders to industrial premises. I understand that companies will also have to take a large amount of the increase in tax on heavy oils.
These factors, I am certain, will ultimately increase prices. I think that over the last year, when profit margins have been squeezed, we have had a period in which companies have tried to take all the increases in costs without increasing their prices. They are now getting something which will clearly increase their prices, and they know that there will be an increase in consumer expenditure at the same time.
There is no point in tinkering about with prices. They will say, "If we are to increase them, let us increase them by an amount which will take into account not only the increase in taxes and costs which we have to bear, but those we are likely to have to face during the next twelve to eighteen months". That is a danger which arises from the Budget.
Thirdly, may I make one or two comments about the Chancellor's remarks

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about the structure of taxation. I welcome any simplification of the structure of the tax system, but I should like to take up one point which the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) made about Profits Tax. I do not think many people realise the tremendous simplification in Profits Tax which occurred when we went from the differential rate to the flat rate. Speaking as one who has a professional interest in tax matters, I say this, that the charging sections for the distribution charge which are inevitable if we have a differential rate of taxation are among the most complicated of the whole tax code. They give rise to more technical anomalies than any other section of tax law.
The moment we make tax legislation extremely complicated, highly technical, and highly anomalous, it gives rise to much scope for tax avoidance. If we want to avoid tax avoidance, we have a duty to try to make the charging sections as simple and as straightforward as possible.
The hon. and learned Member for Kettering quoted the Royal Commission's opinion on Surtax. I notice that he did not quote the Royal Commission on either the capital gains tax or Profits Tax, because they were contrary to his interests in that respect. I would be very much against changing back Profits Tax to a differential rate, and I think that it is right to retain the flat rate. It helps considerably in a simplified taxation of companies.
While I am on the question of the structure of taxation, may I gently encourage the Chancellor to battle as hard as he can with the Treasury. The reasons he gave for not amalgamating Income Tax and Surtax are strangely reminiscent of the reasons why P.A.Y.E. could not be introduced before, in fact, it was introduced. I believe that a memorandum exists in the Treasury setting out the reasons why it was impossible to introduce P.A.Y.E., the memorandum having been brought out about a year before the system was introduced.
As regards the modifications to double taxation, the necessity for one of them would not have arisen had it not been for the fact that we have our taxation in Schedule D of Case I and Case II profits on the preceding year basis. If we are
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going in for simplification in the structure of taxation, it seems to me that this would provide an excellent opportunity for the Chancellor to carry out the recommendations of the Royal Commission and change to the current year basis. It is a change which I would welcome and I hope that it will be undertaken.
I should like to make one or two comments about Government expenditure. Various hon. Members have quoted various figures without giving the sources, and I notice that the proportion of Government expenditure and Government taxation to gross national product appears to have varied during the debate from about 31 per cent. to 25 per cent. I had better give the source for my figures. It is one of the most interesting things in Budget and economic debates to try to deduce from what hon. Members say which periodicals they have been reading. I know that some hon. Members have read Lloyds Bank Review of April, 1961, because references have been made to the beginning and end of that publication, and some hon. Members have read the middle as well.
The figures given there relate to total Government expenditure at the national and at the local level. It compares total Government expenditure as thus defined to total gross national product at factor cost. The figures on page 4 show that Government expenditure has risen from 9 per cent. of the gross national product in 1890 to 42 per cent. in 1952, and was 37 per cent. in 1959. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman has obviously not read the periodical. The article, entitled "Past and Future Public Spending", is most interesting. It is written by Professor Peacock and Mr. Jack Wiseman. It is shortly to be published as a book—I have no interest in its publication.
Mr. Woodburn: When the hon. Lady talks about public expenditure, I take it that she means Government and local authority expenditure. It is still public expenditure if people spend it themselves instead of the Government. For instance, if the Health Service charges were transferred back to the people to spend, it would still be public expenditure.
Mrs. Thatcher: I defined what I meant. I accept that of the 37 per cent. a certain amount is not a charge on the annual output but is what one would

1231
call a form of transfer payment. Nevertheless, the Government have control of 37 per cent. of the expenditure of the total gross national product. It is extremely high, and it brings us to the heart of the problem, that we, as new hon. Members, cannot begin to tackle the burden of tax until we have some means better than we have at the moment of controlling the size of Government expenditure.
I believe that it is folly for any hon. Member to lead the public into believing that there will be a fall in the absolute figure of Government expenditure. There will not be. It is almost certainly bound to rise, if only because the welfare services are expanding, and, for another reason, that much of the expenditure has been on current account. There is a good deal of expenditure and replacement of capital account which needs to be caried out if existing services are to be maintained at their present level. We will not see a fall in the ordinary figure of Government expenditure, but we have to control it as a proportion of the gross national product.
I look forward to reading and debating the recommendations of the Plowden Committee when they are published. At present, the system of control of Government expenditure is very dangerous in that it gives all the appearance of control without the reality, and that is about the worst situation which one can possibly have, the theory being that there can be no new expenditure which has not been approved in an Estimate; no expenditure can be approved in a draft Estimate until it has been approved by the Treasury; and no increase in staff can be had in excess of an amount approved by the Treasury.
Those three things may be all very well in theory, but they do not lead to effective control of Government expenditure throughout the year, and until we manage to solve this problem of controlling the amount effectively by Parliament I do not think that we shall be able to devote our attention to considering how the burden is to be distributed as between one kind of taxation and another.
Finally, I want to refer to one or two miscellaneous points. I am grateful to the Chancellor for his reduction in Surtax, because it will help married women
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teachers who want to return to their profession, but I hope that in his overhaul of the structure of taxation he will assess the incomes of married women quite separately. I do not mean that he should make merely a technical assessment; there should be a separate charge. That would be far better than the method by which he chooses to proceed at the moment.
European countries are absolutely unanimous in feeling that we are the hardest of all in our treatment of the wife who goes out to work, especially the wife in the middle-class income group who does so. When we find it unanimously expressed that we lag behind Europe in a certain respect special attention ought to be given to the matter by the Chancellor.
I thank my right hon. and learned Friend, on behalf of many of my constituents, for granting relief from tax in relation to the compensation given by the Germans to the victims of Nazi persecution. I have had a great deal of correspondence about this, and I know that this concession will help many of those victims who live in my constituency.
I look forward with even more eagerness to my right hon. and learned Friend's next Budget, when we shall get the result of all that he has undertaken to do in the present one, and I wish him well throughout the many battles that he will have in the process with his Treasury advisers.
6.31 p.m.
Mr. J. Idwal Jones: I listened with interest to the speech of the hon. Lady the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher), which was very well informed, but I hope that she will pardon me if I do not follow her arguments. I want to describe to the Committee the impressions left on me when I listened to the Chancellor on Monday. There were moments in his speech when we all thought that we were being led up to a new and imaginative departure in Government policy: we thought that we could glean a definite and welcome change in policy. But, like the grand old Duke of York, he marched us half way up the hill and then suddenly marched us down again.
I should qualify that remark by saying that the opposite process applied to

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those on the Government benches. He led them halfway down the hill at first, and how very glum were their faces then! But then he suddenly marched them back again to the top, much to their glee. His performance was a masterpiece of strategy. The glum faces of hon. Members opposite were suddenly transfigured by gleams of profound satisfaction. The whole speech added up to being the greatest class Budget of modern times. In fairness to the Chancellor, it must be said that his was a very brave and courageous speech. Who but a brave Chancellor would have dared to hand over £83 million to the highest earners only a few weeks after the Government had raised Health Service charges by £65 million? It was bravery, nevertheless, debased to brazenness, and courage reduced to outrage.
The crux of the problem is our balance of payments. This the Chancellor glossed over beautifully, as is admitted by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, although 1960 was our worse balance of payments year for the last decade. The Chancellor skated skilfully over the subject, like a master performer, but he offered no solution of the problem. So the problem remains, and it will remain until the question is faced from the point of view of production. The facts of the situation are admitted by all. To meet our obligations we require a surplus of £450 million a year, earned through goods and services. The year 1959 was a good one. We are told that our surplus was then £51 million, which is only one-ninth of our recognised requirements if we are to have a safe basis to our economy.
In 1960, we had a deficit of £344 million. In other words—this is a striking fact—we were £800 million short of our requirements. What followed? We were saved by borrowing. We borrowed heavily through Bank Rate manipulations. Hot money, easily attracted, came into the country, but that hot money can easily be attracted elsewhere. Those facts are known to all.
The stark truth which has to be faced is that this nation has become utterly dependent on the short-term borrowing of hundreds of millions of pounds a year. Do not let us delude ourselves; the big concessions made to a mixed crowd of
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about 300,000 Surtax payers is no answer to the problem of production and productivity. Unless the answer is found we shall be faced, with the same problem a year hence, perhaps in a more acute form.
Many years ago I came to the conclusion that the Government are working to preconceived but false ideas. I refer in the first instance to the doctrinaire attitude about wages displayed by hon. Members opposite. On Monday, the Chancellor stated that
"The rise in personal consumption must be restrained"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th April, 1961; Vol. 638, c. 801.]
What he meant, in practice—and what other hon. Members opposite mean when they say this—is that the personal consumption of the wage-earning class must be restrained. We are familiar with that argument. The President of the Board of Trade expressed it on 7th February, 1961, when he said:
"if we allow demand to expand, the home market gets too strong, incomes rise faster than output, prices rise, imports rise, and exports fall".
The hon. Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) expounded the same argument. He said:
"The trade unions are now the greatest engines of inflation that exist in our society…The trade unions alone are rogue elephants in our society. They are absolutely uncontrolled…they create money out of nothing."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th February, 1961; Vol. 634, c. 286–340.]
The hon. Member instanced the case of the National Union of Agricultural Workers, forgetful of the fact that the maximum wage of its members is only £8 9s. a week. It is time that we got this picture clear and in its true perspective. It is no use adding together the various wages and incomes of different groups and then finding the average. That average obviously cannot be the correct figure for the lowest or the highest paid members of our community. Yet, when the lower income groups seek increases it is the average which is presented to us as a reason for resisting their claims.
People who receive £8 9s. a week, such as agricultural workers, or bus workers, and railway workers, who are getting £10 a week, are all told, when they ask for 10s. a week extra, that they are threatening our economy. We are reminded of the danger of inflation, and that our balance of payments would be in jeopardy if these claims were met.

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I am heartily tired of that argument. There are other inflationary pressures at work in this country and there are other sources of revenue, about which the Chancellor had very little to say on Monday afternoon. He never admitted to the inflationary tendency of the handout to Surtax payers—to the people who spend not upon necessities or near-necessities, but upon luxury goods which could very well be exported, to the good of this country.
I will give examples of investments of which I read recently. An investor who invested £120 in 1952 in Jaguar cars is now worth £3,300, or twenty-seven times as much in nine years, without having put a single additional penny into his original investment. An investor who invested £250 in the British Assets Trust in 1952 is now worth £1,500, or six times as much, without investing a single additional penny in his investment. An investor who invested £400 in Glaxo in 1952 is now worth £4,000, or ten times the original value. There is not much evidence of sweat and blood in that type of gain. These people do not spend their gains on necessities, or near-necessities, but on luxury goods which could very well have gone to the export trade.
We hear the oft-repeated argument that an increase in wages will bring pressure to bear in the home market and our economic position will be brought into jeopardy. At the same time, there is the sickening spectacle of our Clores and our Cottons, hovering like hawks ready to swoop down on their prey. It is a frightening thought that two or three financiers can juggle with scores of millions of pounds, seeking to reap their millions of tax free gains, when the country is unable to balance its trade accounts.
Mrs. Thatcher: What makes the hon. Gentleman think that the gentlemen whom he has mentioned were not, in fact, taxed on their gains as dealers?
Mr. Jones: That is the general impression. Although our economy is sick, it does occasionally rally to make a small balance, but as soon as it rallies a little it is subjected to a lethargic inoculation. We know what that is. It is high interest rates which
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stupefy, but, by some strange alchemy, that which stupefies the economy is tonic to the financiers of the world. It is true that the economy is sick, but it is a sickness inherent in our economy—the sickness of an acquisitive society.
I now come to the payroll tax. This is a new departure which has obviously not been carefully considered nor enthusiastically received by hon. Members. The hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mr. D. Price), in his speech yesterday, could give it only qualified support. He said:
"I think that we will need to know a little about it in detail."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th April, 1961; Vol. 638, c. 1105.]
When the President of the Board of Trade spoke on this question all that he could say was that he thought that it was a good idea. It seemed to him to be a good idea. He said:
"This is the argument for a payroll tax and it seems to me to be a good one."
The right hon. Gentleman thinks that it will be a good idea. It seems to him to be a good idea. He is not absolutely certain, and the Committee and the country have a right to expect Ministers to be absolutely convinced themselves that their policy is right before they embark upon a new departure in policy.
The objects of the payroll tax are several. There is the question of revenue. The Chancellor may, if he desires, raise additional revenue to the extent of £200 million. Is there anyone in the Committee who does not believe that this 4s. payroll tax will not be passed on to the consumer? Is not that the line of least resistance for the industrialists? Are we so naive as not to believe that this is exactly what will happen?
Then there is the other avowed purpose of the proposal—to provide an incentive to the industrialist to capitalise his industry and make it less labour intensive and more capital intensive. It was in this connection that I heard the President of the Board of Trade using an expression which I had not heard for many years. It was:
"…our scarcest commodity is labour,…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th April, 1961; Vol. 638, c. 1008.]
Labour is a commodity—to be bought and sold, moved about and dispensed with. Marx would have rejoiced to see

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the Tory President of the Board of Trade sitting in the gallery of prophets. If labour is our scarcest commodity, why quibble when it asks for a better price? But labour is not a commodity. I am on these benches because I have always believed that labour is not a commodity. It is a human being with family attachments and with social and community roots.
Direction of industry? No. There is not an hon. Member opposite who believes in the direction of industry. Industry must not be directed. Industry may be persuaded, but it must not be directed in this land of freedom. That is why the Distribution of Industry Act, one of the finest pieces of legislation that this country has ever had in the economic field, has been nullified by the Government. They do not believe in the direction of industry.
But labour—here is a treasured commodity to be moved about. The Government's policy is to give incentives to the industrialists to dispense with labour, so that through the play of economic forces it can be directed to where it is most wanted and where it will provide the greatest gain to the industrialist. What does it matter if families are pulled up by their roots and communities in certain of our semi-industrial areas, in the Principality of Wales, to take an example, are weakened beyond repair?
Comparisons with other Western nations are inevitable, and when we are making comparisons with other nations we do not come out favourably. It was the Chancellor who, on 6th February, said:
"Germany's exports, have more than doubled; the United Kingdom's have gone up by about a quarter…."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th February, 1961; Vol. 634. c. 57.]
Fifteen years ago that country lay in ashes. Her factories were razed to the ground, her people had to be fed according to the calculated amount of calories available. And yet our country, with no industrial centre further removed from the seaboard than 50 miles, has been allowed to fall seriously behind a country which, fifteen years ago, was reeling before the devastating blow of the most crushing defeat in history. What an indictment of ten years of Tory rule. And yet we are asked to believe
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that Surtax concessions will help to solve the problem.
In February, the President of the Board of Trade said that the Government had freed the economy at home. That is exactly what the Government have not done. The country is in the clutches of foreign financiers and we have virtually lost sovereign control over our economy. Were it not so, there would be no dilemma today between our finances and our production. What the Chancellor said on Monday offered little hope of restoring the sovereignty of our economy.
6.50 p.m.
Mr. Julian Ridsdale: The hon. Member for Wrexham (Mr. Idwal Jones) has had some interesting things to say about production, productivity and wages, but it is unfair of him to blame the Government alone for our export performance in comparison with Germany. This was a comparison which the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) also made.
It is right to recognise that costs are a vital matter in exports. There is no doubt that Germany has been helped in her exports by the moderation of the demands of the trade unions, perhaps because they have memories of what inflation would mean if it were to return. Let us also be fair, however, and realise that West Germany has had, too, a constant pool of labour coming in from East Germany, which has kept labour costs competitive.
Mr. Bruce Millan: I wonder whether the hon. Member knows that in the last two or three years, at the very least, German wages have risen more rapidly than wages in this country. That argument, therefore, no longer holds.
Mr. Ridsdale: The Germans have been able to pay more wages now because of the greater investment and savings which they have made and, therefore, the greater productivity that they have achieved.
The worst of speaking in a Budget debate is that what one says is judged not only now, but in a year's time when one comes to make one's next speech and turns back to see what was said a year ago. No doubt the success of my

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right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor's Budget will be judged not now, but in a year's time, when we see the effect which it has had on the balance of payments in 1962.
Given that American trade is taking a turn for the better, that we are able to make good use of the considerable investment that we have been making in our manufacturing industry and that the country lives up to the responsibilities of full employment in a free society, we have a good chance of improving what, we must frankly admit, is an awkward situation, to say the least. The key depends upon whether the country will live up to the responsibilities of full employment in a free society and whether we can keep cost inflation, which threatens us, under control. My hon. Friend the Economic Secretary had some serious words to say about this in opening the debate this afternoon.
The background to the Budget is one of prosperity, and not adversity, for the country. Prosperity, however, is not without its fears and doubts, as adversity is not without its hopes and comforts. It is of these fears and doubts against the background of a prosperous, fully-employed United Kingdom that I largely wish to speak this evening, but against the background, also, of a country in which personal savings last year increased by £450 million and in which there was a rapid rise of total investment in 1960, with total fixed investment about 8 per cent. above the previous year, with manufacturing industry leading the way and with stocks increasing by £600 million, although I am not certain how much of these stocks included unsold durable goods.
There is no doubt that never before in our history have we had such a high standard of living. There is all this and a good deal more on the credit side. Against that, however, on the debit side, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said so clearly in his excellent Budget speech, we have the adverse balance of £394 million, the fact that our imports increased by 13 per cent. against a much smaller rise in exports and our failure to build up a surplus, as the hon. Member for Wrexham said, of at least £450 million in our balance of payments if we are to expand our exports and maintain our
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trading position in the world. I spoke about this in the Budget debate a year ago.
We face, too, a failure to keep our place in the sterling area markets in the face of stern competition from the United States, from Japan and from the Common Market countries. Our chief concern on the debit side, however, is the threatening cost inflation caused by wage increases and shorter working hours ahead of increases in industrial production. I have no doubt that the price stability of the last few years is gravely threatened and that this is the chief problem that faces us.
Fears and doubts there must be against a background of prosperity when we examine more closely our economic position. Certainly, however, I do not want to move to deflationary and restrictionist policies. I want to maintain our growth of economic activity. Nevertheless, because of the tightness of our economy, I cannot help feeling that we have been holding back in the last few years those sections which are the foundation of our economy. I refer particularly to the metal and engineering industries and their shortage of labour. That is why I support to a degree the payroll tax, although the Treasury will have to be careful about the small man and the small firm. I hope that it is intended to have its effect upon the bigger employers of labour and not to hurt the small man or the small business, who certainly do not hoard labour.
It is a fair criticism that, in trying to do everything, we have watered down the best and have failed to give success its true reward. That is why I welcome the Surtax changes, but I deplore the increase in the Profits Tax. Bearing in mind, however, the importance of ensuring that justice and fair play prevail, I am sorry that, at the same time as the Chancellor made his Surtax proposals, he was not able to bring justice to that small section of pensioners who will be so hard hit from the method which has been chosen to help them with the prescription charges.
As a whole, however, I have felt that our economy of the last few years has been a soft economy, divorced from the reality of the competitiveness of the harsh and hard world which we face abroad. That is why I welcome the intention to lower industrial tariffs and

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why I hope that we shall get a closer association with the Common Market countries, although we should not enter the Common Market at any price, as some people have suggested.
What has disturbed me about our economy has been the growing lack of national purpose against the background of material prosperity and the highest standards of living that we have ever known. If one has time to pause and to stand back and stare, one cannot help but ask where we are going and what is our aim.
Commenting on last week's great Russian achievement, Professor Sir Bernard Lovell is reported as saying that it was
"because of a singleness of purpose and human sacrifice in material comforts on a scale unknown in the West. If Western civilisation continues to disregard this example of the great results of investment in science, in education and in research, it will do so at its peril."
Is it not possible to inject a little more of that singleness of purpose into our economy, not with the heavy hand of the State, but getting over to the country, at this very late hour, the responsibilities of full employment? The Chancellor has given us a last chance to do this—a last chance to keep full employment by this threateningly tough, though largely neutral, Budget. I welcome the fact that he is encouraging us along the right lines where we must face up to realities and our position in the modern world.
But is there not still more we can do? Are there still not too many restrictive practices on both sides of industry? Are we really content to allow Germany to take our place as the leading credit country in the world outside the United States and let them always go ahead because they are prepared to make more sacrifices for tomorrow than are we? Germany is consuming 56 per cent. of her national income, compared with 65 per cent. of ours and she is investing 22 per cent. of her national income compared with, in the last few years, our 15 per cent., 16 per cent.; and while our figure has gone up to 18½ per cent. now it is still not enough. Have we not, in these last few years, to a certain degree been taking the easy way out?
It is not exactly encouraging for the future when we consider that between
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1957 and 1960 the annual rate of consumer expenditure had increased by £1,400 million at 1954 prices, and that during the same period the annual rate of gross fixed investment at 1954 prices, apart from house building, increased by only £400 million. The question must be asked: have we not been sacrificing our national responsibility for easy and comfortable living? One thing is certain. We cannot have our cake and eat it. The Government have not been doing enough to bring the reality of these kind of facts, harsh as they are, over to the country, although the Chancellor has moved a long way in that direction.
The key, of course, in this Budget, rests on using our labour force more productively and drawing heavily on the new capital equipment that has been installed. Yet the major need is for unity of purpose, realising the kind of competition we are facing and to make us live up to the responsibilities of full employment as one nation, and not as a nation divided. This can be done and it will be better to get out of our difficulties by increasing productivity and expansion than with deflationary policies and restrictionism. However, there are risks in attempting to accelerate out of this problem in the neutral type of Budget the Chancellor has brought in when there is a large payments deficit and no seeming co-operation from the trades union element.
I hope that we shall get that cooperation, because if we fail now the result undoubtedly must be deflationary policies and restrictionism. I hope, above all, that we shall get that message over to the country, because none of us wants to go back to the 5 per cent. protectionist attitude of the 1930s. But there is the danger that we shall be forced to take such restrictionist action if we fail to get that co-operation to expand productivity on both sides of industry, to keep prices stable, and to keep our costs competitive with other countries.
On the whole, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Chancellor on his Budget. The overall deficit of about £70 million is the smallest that we have had for many years. I think it is a good augury for stability in prices and strength of sterling. He has not done all I had hoped, but no Chancellor ever does. It is, however, a step in the right direction

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and I hope that it will be the first of many Budgets he will introduce. I hope, also, that he will lay stress in the future on the three vital points which I consider we must have in Britain today: enterprise, investment and saving.
7.7 p.m.
Mr. Arthur Holt: I am glad to follow the hon. Gentleman the Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale) who, unless my memory plays tricks on me, is the nephew of the Prime Minister who burdened this country with its present protective tariffs. It was nice to hear him say this afternoon that now, after thirty years, he thinks that it would be a good idea if this burden was removed from around the country's neck.
The hon. Member then went on to make a very tough kind of speech. He said that industry was too "cushy" in many ways, that industry was soft, and that we had to get it more competitive, but I regret that although the question of a reduction in tariffs arose—to bring more competitiveness into industry—he seemed to be rather tepid in the amount of reduction that he was prepared to accept.
Mr. Ridsdale: Since the hon. Gentleman has made reference to my family, it is only fair that I should point out that if he would do a little more research he would discover that my family had Liberal connections as well.
Mr. Holt: I am glad to see that the hon. Gentleman is giving some promotion to that side of his family.
There are so many subjects upon which one can touch when discussing the Budget that it is rather difficult to decide which ones to eliminate and which to bring to the fore. I shall, therefore, avoid being too discursive.
There are two important innovations mentioned in the Chancellor's proposals as being regulators, and I hope to have an opportunity of discussing those at a later stage, perhaps when we debate the Finance Bill. Since I shall be commenting on those regulators later, I will take issue with only one of them at this stage, one which drew comment from the Sunday Express last week, when that newspaper said that the proposal to bring
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in a payroll tax in the form proposed might lead to the resignation of the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance.
That is an interesting comment and one must believe there is something in it, especially when one considers the way in which the proposal was put before the House. The Chancellor said in his Budget speech:
"I propose to ask for power this year as a temporary expedient to collect such a surcharge, should it be needed…"
The Chancellor then said:
"I will, however, continue to examine other methods of levying such a surcharge. Should Parliament be asked to grant this power again next year, I would put forward fresh proposals."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th April, 1961; Vol. 638, c. 808–9.]
The proposal therefore seems tentative, and I ask the Economic Secretary whether the Committee is being misled. Does the Chancellor, in view of the opposition that he has had to the proposal, have any intention—in the kind of circumstances that may arise in August or September this year—of introducing such charges? If he has not, it is quite wrong that the Committee should spend any time giving serious thought to the proposal.
I can understand the reasons for the objection made by the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, because it would completely undermine the defence which the Government made when the Health Service contributions were recently increased—and which were attacked by hon. Gentlemen on both sides—and which were, in fact, taxation increases. It was a removal of the cost of the Health Service directly from the Exchequer to the contributors, but, nevertheless, it was a form of taxation.
This was denied. But if the stamps are now to be used as a surcharge for a payroll tax, it completely demolishes that position. I hope that before the debate is over the Chancellor, or another representative of the Treasury from the Government Front Bench, will take the opportunity of being extremely frank with the Committee about the seriousness with which the Chancellor views the payroll proposal.
Mr. Barber: I will deal with that point now. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that if my right hon. and learned

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Friend thought that the economic situation was such that it was desirable to use this regulator, he most certainly would do so.
The only other point that I should like to make in answer to the hon. Gentleman's last observation is that, of course, the only reason why the National Insurance scheme has been used for the implementation of this policy, this second regulator, is that it seemed to us to be the most convenient form of doing it, as it would not involve any additional staff or any new machinery.
Mr. Holt: However, it is not thought so satisfactory that it is proposed to continue it next year. In fact, the Chancellor has said that he intends to find other methods of doing it.
We have had the usual elaborate ceremonial of balancing the Budget, which completely passes my comprehension. Even last year's Budget was about £150 million out. But we are told that the home economy may be in great peril unless the £80 million or so of extra taxation is imposed. This is a piece of nonsense which we go through each year. When anyone will find a way of avoiding it I do not know, but I should have thought that there was one simple way of avoiding it, even if the Chancellor thinks that he has to balance the position by increasing taxes.
The alternative way would be to balance the position by reducing Government expenditure. In this case, the Chancellor could well have done so by getting rid of the ridiculous and wasteful expenditure which the Government are still devoting to the production and maintenance of the independent British nuclear deterrent, which helps the defence of the country not one whit. That would save us between £150 million and £200 million a year, which would have balanced the Budget nicely and allowed us, instead of putting an extra tax on vehicles, to double the expenditure on roads.
If the Economic Secretary thinks that motorists are convinced by his argument that vehicle taxes are very small, he must talk to a few of them over the next few weeks. There is not a motorist in the country who is not aware of the vast amount of money that he provides by one tax or another; it amounts to
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about £650 million. The Economic Secretary said that the expenditure on roads this year would be about £80 million. That is a little higher than I thought the actual figure was. I believe that new construction and major improvements amount to only £67 million: but perhaps the Economic Secretary has included something else.
Even if we include all that is provided by direct grants to local authorities and the proportion for the police force, the taxes provided by motorists amount to three or four times what is spent in every way on the roads. I should have thought one of the Government's principles would have been that not a single extra penny of taxation should be applied to motorists until they had been provided with a decent road system.
My chief complaint about the Budget is that it does not deal even with the problems as set out by the Chancellor. I should have thought that he would have accepted that stable prices were a "must". The hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Rhodes) spoke earlier about everybody having a vested interest in inflation. If that is what he thinks, he should go round canvassing in his constituency again, because there are many people who certainly have not a vested interest in inflation. There are many people who have suffered very greatly from inflation. I entirely agree that there are some others who have a very big vested interest in it, and that is probably one of the troubles.
We want stable prices, higher exports to overcome our balance of payments difficulties, and growth. I should have thought that the Committee as a whole would have agreed that we shall not get stable prices by tinkering about with this other regulator in putting 10 per cent. on a lot of Excise and Customs Duties and Purchase Tax. Neither shall we get stable prices through the increases in taxes which have already been announced in the Budget. Most companies will certainly attempt to put the Profits Tax on their costs, and, if there is inflation about, they will succeed. The oil tax, also, will tend to push up prices. So the Chancellor's Budget has done nothing towards making prices stable. On the contrary, it has tended to push them up.

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What we require is either the same taxes or lower. We want lower tariffs for the kind of reasons which were given by the hon. Member for Harwich. In the Chancellor's Budget proposals there was just a passing reference to tariffs, and I shall have a little more to say about them later. I should have thought that our savings were really not yet so high that the Chancellor could not have thought of some other methods of encouraging them. If the hon. Member for Halifax (Mr. Maurice Macmillan) has an opportunity to speak, I am sure that part of his speech will be directed towards this subject, and I expect that I shall agree with him.
If the Chancellor had taken the bold move of cutting tariffs and, at the same time, had offered further stimulants and encouragement to increase savings, I should have thought that he might have used his regulator temporarily to increase the Purchase Tax on some articles. I think that the effect of doing it that way would have been actually to lower prices, and we should not have had a big increase in imports.
The problem of lowering import duties at this time—it is obvious in one sense—is that there might be a flood of imports, and if we did this we must take the other steps in harmony with it to ensure that the purchasing power is either not available for buying a lot more goods or is diverted into savings. That could have been done to the great benefit of everybody.
There was one important omission from the Chancellor's speech on Monday and from the speech of the then Chancellor during last year's Budget, when I also referred to it. There has been no reference whatsoever to the greatest economic and political experiment that has been made in this century or for a longer time. This experiment has had a most tremendous effect, and it will have a bigger effect on our economy than perhaps many people realise. I refer to the Common Market. There has been not a word about it, not even a passing reference.
The Common Market is often stated in this House to be a fine example of a growing economy, something that we should like our economy to be, and a lot of very impressive statistics are
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quoted. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Harwich is not yet among those in the House who want to see us in the Common Market. He used the phrase "I am not one of those who want Britain to go into the Common Market at any cost". I have not met such a person yet. I do not know to whom he is referring when he talks in that way. This is a frequent line of criticism from some hon. Members opposite.
Mr. Ridsdale: I was referring to some members of the Liberal Party whom I have met on the Continent, who have often made speeches as though they think that we should go into the Common Market unconditionally. I cannot agree with that.
Mr. Holt: It is very easy to cause misconception in this matter. Certainly, the view of the Liberal Party is that we consider it very important to get into the Common Market, and that the difficulties of Commonwealth trade, agriculture and other problems, as well as some of the political difficulties, do not present insuperable obstacles. We think that the important thing is that the Government should make the political decision, and should decide to go into the Common Market and work with the other members of the Common Market for the kind of aims that they have in mind. This is the great decision that we have got to make.
It is because this country has never given the impression to the Common Market countries that we are prepared to go in and work with them on the same political basis that they will make little move towards us in overcoming some of our technical difficulties. If the Government would only make this major political decision in a positive sense, and not merely say that they have no objections to some of the institutions, there would be great advantages.
The way in which the Government have often put their case is illustrated by the words of the Lord Privy Seal, when, in February of this year, he addressed the Western European Union and made some very important statements. He said:
"…we are not afraid of common institutions. We recognise there would have to be common institutions to control a common or harmonised tariff. But no arrangements would be satisfactory to us which did not involve"—

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this is, I think, the most important statement that has been made by any Government spokesman on the subject—
"a political as well as an economic relationship with the Six."
That is very important, but there is throughout the speech an attitude that the first moves must come from the other side. We were invited to go into the Common Market years ago and we turned it down. If we are to get into the Common Market we must use the initiative ourselves.
Britain has been investing an increasing amount of money in Common Market countries. In 1957, private industry invested £20 million; in 1958, £35 million; and in 1959, £58 million. For 1960, there is a similar figure. I have not got the final figure, but it was running at the same rate in the first half of 1960.
It is likely, however, that these figures do not show what is actually happening, and no doubt many hon. Members can give examples of firms which have recently taken steps to enter the Common Market. I.C.I. is a well-known example. Massey-Ferguson is setting up a tractor factory in Beauvais with the intention of turning out 75,000 tractors a year. Then there are Standard Motors, the Metal Box Company, Bowaters and the British Motor Corporation, all setting up factories in the Common Market.
Not only the big companies but the small one are doing this. I have been extremely anxious about this recently, because there has been such a case in my own constituency. Earlier this year I had a communication from a firm which had quite an important business with the Common Market countries. I was told that the firm would have to decide soon whether, should Britain go into the Common Market, to build an extension to its factory in Bolton. If Britain was not going into the Common Market, it would have seriously to consider setting up a factory in Holland.
Moreover, this firm had an association with an American company which also was prepared to do the same thing. Either the American company was going to make an arrangement with the factory at Bolton, whereby some of its products would be manufactured in Bolton and use would be made of the same sales organisation for getting the products into
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Europe, or, alternatively, if Britain was not going into the Common Market, this American company would set up a factory in Europe. I did all I could to ascertain what were the real possibilities of our getting into the Common Market. I consulted the President of the Board of Trade and others and I was unable to get any assurance.
I should like to quote briefly from a letter that I had from this firm:
"The first point is that, as I anticipated, our American friends were not prepared to accept a policy of 'jam tomorrow,' and are now making arrangements themselves to put down a plant inside the Common Market, which as I had previously told you, might quite easily have come to Bolton if the situation had been different. So far as we ourselves are concerned, competition from firms in Belgium and West Germany is becoming more acute, and on our most vulnerable product we have now decided in principle to start a small independent manufacturing organisation in Holland, between October and December this year."
I have no doubt that there are other hon. Members who have had exactly the same problem, and unless the Government get on with this and do something about it this year, this kind of thing will multiply to the serious detriment of the competitiveness and of the creation of employment in this country in the future.
It is this kind of thing about which we should have heard something in the Budget. If this problem is tackled now we shall get efficiency and competitive mobility, and the country can go ahead. But frankly, while there is this lack of spirit of adventure in the Government, this lack of determination to seize this new opportunity in Europe, why should the Government expect industry to have it? I ask that this year the Government should set an example by showing some enterprise in their own policy in Europe.
7.27 p.m.
Mrs. Patricia McLaughlin: I hope that the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt) will forgive me if, in view of the lateness of the hour and the number of hon. Members who still wish to speak, I do not follow him into the intricacies and problems facing us in the Common Market. I would only say that we have great responsibilities to our Commonwealth and our other old alliances which we should not forget.

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May I take this opportunity of offering my congratulations to my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on having the temerity to produce a Budget with a new look, a Budget which is endeavouring to move the creaking joints of the Treasury. I can only hope that he has a plentiful supply of energy and ideas with which to manipulate and grease those joints so that we have a really new look in planning the economy and a forward look at the years which face us.
Those of us who remember Professor Parkinson's lecture, and the way in which he pilloried the Government's system of budgeting, will realise that many people outside Parliament find it much more difficult than even those inside Parliament to understand the many intricacies and complexities of Government accounting, and anything which can be done to modernise it and make it comparatively simple will be a great help. I should like also to congratulate the Chancellor on having taken so many new steps which we believe are only a few of those to which we look forward with the idea of simplifying generally our taxation system and the Government's planning of the country's economy.
I should like to say how much it is appreciated by all the areas particularly interested that the investment allowances in the shipbuilding industry are being continued, as far as we can see, during the lifetime of this Parliament at 40 per cent. That is one thing which I know to be a matter of considerable importance to the people in our part of the United Kingdom in regard to the future of the shipbuilding industry. I believe that it will encourage the yards there and all those who are in control of shipbuilding to go forward and modernise and become up to date, so as to enable us to compete even more effectively with other countries in shipping and in the servicing and repair establishments which we need so urgently to keep the shipping lanes going fast and smoothly throughout the world of commerce.
I should like to make one or two other comments, first, about the new regulator proposal. This is a proposition to add or deduct anything from one to 10 per cent., either way, on the present taxation level generally, Purchase Tax
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and all types of Revenue Duty. Surely, this must be a better way of regulating the needs of the country from time to time. Many of the areas which are very short of development, and I include Northern Ireland specifically, have felt it very severely when the Bank Rate has suddenly been put up, because that is one of the methods which, in the past, Governments have had to use particularly in regulating the economy. This new regulator will surely be a greater easement all over the country, and will fall less heavily on one area than another.
It will be a good thing to know that this regulator is there, and that it will be used before a very sudden increase in the Bank Rate, if it should be proved necessary to use it at all. The credit squeeze, the special deposits, and so on, are always bound to affect particularly areas not so fully occupied with industry and commerce as those areas which might be called the over-occupied areas. Therefore, spreading consumer demand throughout the country is surely an imaginative and fair way of endeavouring to keep demand within control, especially when we have to find some means of preventing too much demand outrunning supply.
The need to maintain a stable £ and the great importance of showing the world our determination to have a stable economy and a £ which can measure up to any other currency in the world is obviously demonstrated in this Budget. I believe that we are facing now a new trend in Government thought in the way of keeping this country from suffering the traditional run on the £ every so often, which has caused us so much difficulty, and I can only hope that the Chancellor's efforts will meet with the success that they deserve.
I should like to mention the question of Surtax. Surtax has been almost a dirty word, like profits. Today, it is recognised as something imposed at much too low a level on people endeavouring to put their very best into the country's needs, and it is particularly welcome because of the fact that, although we have not yet managed to achieve recognition of married women as individuals in their own right for tax purposes—they are still chattels and rather out of date—at least we can look

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forward to the Chancellor doing something about that in future years.
I know of many women who have had a professional training and now have families, who would like to give some of that knowledge and training back to the country, and who will welcome this new opportunity. It will make it much easier, now that the Surtax level has been raised, to persuade their husbands to allow them to take other work, such as in teaching and in the nursing services. In many instances, we are looking for further help from women, and it must be found from amongst the married women, who, we believe, will now have the incentive to go out and find a worth-while job and share in the profits and the great prosperity which are offered in return.
My hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) mentioned in her speech that she was particularly sorry that married women did not have their own taxation separate from that of their husbands. I am sure that she would be the first to agree that, having achieved such a step forward in this aspect of taxation, we can now look forward to the years ahead without undue worry about this matter.
The question of expense accounts was also raised in the Budget, and a great deal has been said about the high rate of expense accounts and overspending. I think that it would be right here to pay attention to the fact that there are many parts of our country in which expense accounts are practically non-existent. Expense accounts must vary according to the needs of the industry and the people concerned, the amount of entertaining that they have to do, the number of visitors from overseas, and so on, but when one moves outside the Greater London area and one or two of the major provincial industrial centres we find that the average expense account is very small indeed. I believe that if we were to look at most of the production areas we should find that in the majority of cases expense accounts are literally non-existent.
In most of these areas, the people concerned in business are more anxious to bring into their own homes visitors from overseas and business people and entertain them, and I believe that it is mostly done at their own cost. I think that if, in future, expense accounts are taxed, they will not bring in the huge amount of
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revenue that some people might have expected them to do, and which I myself once thought would be the case. After investigation I came to the conclusion that we always heard about the large ones and very little indeed about those which were minute or practically nonexistent.
Now I should like to turn to something which is not actually in the Budget, but which has been mentioned by the Chancellor in his speech. The President of the Board of Trade recently made an announcement about the increase in all the various allowances, insurances, and so on, under the Export Credits Guarantee Department arrangements. This, surely, must be a great help, and be particularly welcomed by small industries which, in the past, have found it extremely difficult to underwrite themselves in slightly more adventurous contacts abroad and sometimes in the actual finding of those contacts when their turnover is small and their total facilities are, perhaps, limited. I am sure that in finding these contacts this will be a very good boost to our export endeavours.
Here we have the question: how can our exports be developed? My own part of the United Kingdom—Northern Ireland—has a particularly good record in this matter. Per head of the population, our record stands very high in the export figures, and the majority of the firms there, being family firms or small limited companies, have had to battle for their export orders. Not very long ago, I visited fourteen different factories in this area and was amazed to find that in many of them anything from 50 per cent. to 60 per cent. of the total production was exported outside the United Kingdom. I draw attention to this for the reason that I feel that if we are doing something like that in a development district which has enormous difficulties in unemployment, distance from other important centres, and so on, it is only fair to mention something which may not be helpful.
I come now to the proposed payroll tax. We are very grateful to my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary for his explanation this afternoon. It gives us less worry when we know that the yield of any levy put on employers by a payroll tax in Northern Ireland will be taken into the Northern Ireland

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Exchequer direct and will not go into the British Exchequer, as we previously had, perhaps, supposed. I believe, nevertheless, that the Chancellor would do well to consider seriously the effect which such an imposition would have on Northern Ireland or on any development district. Although it is with great relief that I welcome what my hon. Friend said this afternoon, I must still express my unease and that of many people in Northern Ireland about the dangers of this levy should it ever be introduced.
I hope that we shall have an assurance from the Chancellor that he will use a payroll tax only as a last resort and that he will consider means of applying it on a variable regional basis. If it were applied nationally and on every industry equally, it would be very dangerous for us. On the other hand, if it were applied on a varying basis, not, perhaps, to those industries which were not doing well or which were not, in fact, over-employing, that would be a great help. I will not detain the Committee now, because I hope to have another opportunity of raising the matter during the Committee stage of the Finance Bill.
I most earnestly commend to my right hon. and learned Friend the thought that, when something is done for the good of the national economy, one must be very careful that it does not hit and weaken the already weaker parts of the national economic structure. A payroll tax, I am sure, would never be a suitable measure for Northern Ireland. I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend appreciates this, for in Northern Ireland unemployment is twice as high as it is in Scotland. Today, we have 8·6 per cent. unemployment among male labour, a fact which must always be remembered.
During recent months, a working party has been preparing and studying proposals to help Northern Ireland in order to make that part of the United Kingdom economically sound and to provide there the work which is so badly needed. Various proposals have been under discussion between Her Majesty's Government here and the Prime Minister and the members of the Government at Stormont. I understand that proposals have been laid here now for some little time. Such proposals are
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absolutely essential, and it is most important that some of them at least should be implemented as soon as possible.
Amid all the wide discussion of his Budget, I want my right hon. and learned Friend to remember Northern Ireland. I hope that he will assure us that the proposals before the Government are being very urgently examined and that those which may most easily and speedily be implemented will receive attention very soon. The need in Northern Ireland is urgent.
Mr. E. Fernyhough: Will the hon. Lady give the Committee a little more information about these proposals, about which she seems to know everything but about which the rest of us know nothing?
Mrs. McLaughlin: I only wish that I could oblige the hon. Member. He anticipated my concluding sentences on the subject. These proposals are a matter of discussion between the two Governments concerned. To the best of my knowledge, they are not known to anyone outside the Cabinets of both Governments. It is impossible for me to explain or emphasise any one particular proposal. All I know is that these proposals have been discussed. They are extremely urgently needed in Northern Ireland, and the sooner we know what they are, and when they will be implemented, the better pleased we shall be.
This debate has been conducted in a very serious frame of mind against the background of national needs and national endeavour in the export trade. We could do a great deal more in exports if, as somebody rather crudely put it, we were to stand up on our hind legs and get on with it. There has bean a certain stimulus in the Budget to individuals to get on and do more. The Prime Minister once said that exporting is fun. I believe he meant the sort of fun which explorers have when they meet a new challenge or which adventurers have when they climb a mountain never climbed before. It is that kind of strenuous and robust fun which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has in mind, and it is that which is important today. I hope that the stimulus given in the Budget to the country's economy will prove worth while in increasing our exports.
7.45 p.m.
Mr. Joseph Slater: The hon. Lady the Member for Belfast, West (Mrs. McLaughlin) has spoken on a theme which hon. Members representing constituencies in Northern Ireland have followed whenever I have heard them speak during the last seven or eight years, that is to say, unemployment in Northern Ireland and the heavy incidence of it there compared with other parts of the United Kingdom. Yet, if the hon. Lady's statement is correct, Her Majesty's Government have taken no effective action to ease the situation in Northern Ireland.
The hon. Lady drew attention to the different trades and industries established in Northern Ireland, to their performance in the export markets, and so forth. Surprisingly, in her opening sentences, she congratulated her right hon. and learned Friend for the "new look" he had taken in his budgetary proposals. During the last ten years we have had Budget statements from successive Tory Chancellors, from the present Prime Minister, from the Home Secretary, from Lord Amory, and from the Minister of Aviation, who resigned from office, and now from the present Chancellor. So many tributes have been paid to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for the way in which he has presented his Budget that it would appear that he has regained some of the popularity he once had before he became Foreign Secretary. If this is so, all I can say is "Good luck to him"; he will need it before he leaves his present office.
The jubilation of his supporters was very pronounced when he made his announcement about Surtax. This was to be expected, after the wide publicity given to the constant agitation from Tory back-benchers we have witnessed in the House during the past twelve months, which has been echoed in the columns of the Tory Press. The attitude of those Government supporters is nothing new to us. It will always be there so long as we have a Tory Government and Tory Chancellors of the Exchequer. The appeal of the Budget has always lain in what was in it for Tory supporters. On this occasion, they have every cause for jubilation. If hon. and right hon. Members opposite would only analyse the substance of such speeches as the most
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effective one made by my hon. Friend the Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough) yesterday, they would come a little nearer to reality.
We were informed that in this country today there were 300,000 Surtax payers, and these were the people who were to benefit most. There is no doubt that those who are in line for promotion will be waiting expectantly for a speedy advance. Yesterday, the President of the Board of Trade condemned criticisms of the action taken by the Chancellor to assist Surtax payers. The right hon. Gentleman said that these people had for so long been denied any form of benefit or consideration. They had been denied any tangible or monetary recognition, and something ought to be done for them, in view of the fall in the value of money over the last ten years. The President of the Board of Trade may argue, as other hon. Members have sought to do, that wages are going up and that pensions have increased. But such arguments in no way prove the case for the action which has been taken by the Chancellor.
Wages paid in industry have been low for a long time, and they were kept low while profits were being paid out to capital investors. It should not be forgotten that though these 300,000 Surtax payers may have been seriously affected by the drop in the value of money, so also have other people been affected, particularly those working in industry and in receipt of a low basic wage and those with small fixed incomes. Do the arguments advanced by the President of the Board of Trade eliminate the need for further consideration being given to that section of the community?
Hon. Members opposite make the mistake of getting their' priorities wrong. I have no objection to good salaries being paid to people in important positions. We must meet the market price for any such appointment. But who creates the market price? It is not the universities They are in dire need of staff which they cannot get because they cannot compete with outside interests over wages and salaries. I believe that the Chancellor and the Government must give special consideration to this problem if we are to produce the scientists and technologists about which there is so much talk.

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Though we may have to meet the market price for these jobs, we cannot escape the fact that assistance is needed for many other people. To hear some hon. Members opposite talking, it would appear that industry in this country is a one-man show, that industry is run by executive and by management. I have never accepted that. I admit that management and executive have an important part to play, but unless we can secure the confidence of those who work on the shop floor we may as well close down our industries.
I accept that energy and imagination is required as much today as at any time in our history. If we are to boost our standard of living in this competitive world, we must increase our exports. But if we think that by stamping an article "Made in Great Britain," we can attract a queue of people to buy it, we are much mistaken. It may be true that we earned good dividends for ourselves in the past when we led the world in the industrial field, but that day has gone. We have been overtaken by other countries. It may have been salesmanship which once gave us an enhanced position, but the present-day problem is how to break through the new barriers erected by other countries which have outpaced us in their industrial progress and development. It may be that our geographical position is responsible for restriction in movement. Yet I believe we have the technicians and the brains in this country which, if given the opportunity, could make an indelible impression upon world trade even today. We must not be outpaced in productivity by our competitors, for if that happens, we shall fail to maintain our standard of living let alone improve it.
Yesterday, in an interesting speech, the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mr. D. Price) reminded us that he was an unrepentant expansionist. I believe the hon. Member, knowing his association with I.C.I. I can understand his reason for agitating along those lines. Apart from the capital investment programme which I.C.I. is carrying out in my constituency, it has now decided to begin a large-scale manufacturing operation within the area of the Common Market. I.C.I. proposes to invest no less than £100 million in that area during the next ten years with the object of
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capturing the chemical business on the Continent. I have no doubt that when this information was conveyed to the Government they said "Amen to that". But it would be well for us to remember that this Government did not accept the expansionist policy until about two years ago and then only after constant agitation by my right hon. and hon. Friends. Now we find that the Government have become an expansionist Government, and are proceeding with policies by which they claim there will be expansion throughout industry.
It has been said in this debate that there is a drop in unemployment. I should like to see the figure brought much lower. There are still areas in this country which are seriously affected and many men have been out of work for far too long. Every effort should be made to remove the fear of redundancy and dismissal which still lurks in the minds of employees in certain industries. Like other hon. Members who represent constituencies in Durham, I want to see new industries brought there to make it unnecessary for people to be transplanted to other parts of the country from the county in which they were born and grew up and which they love. I have no doubt that the attention of the Board of Trade has been brought to the report regarding the railway shops at Darlington. Darlington Rural District is within my constituency. Many of the men working in those shops are worried—and have good cause to be—by the possibility that the shops may close down. I request the President of the Board of Trade to interest himself in this matter and to enter into some consultations with the Minister of Labour about it.
As a trade unionist I am conscious of the fact that when our export trade falls short our people suffer. I do not think our workers in industry are afraid of examination, whether it be self-examination or examination from any other source whatever, and to look for ways, if need be, of repairing any defect arising due to the human element in organisation, but, even while saying that, surely it is not too much to ask that managements, too, should put themselves through the same process to discover why it is that so many firms have made such a small contribution to our export

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trade. They, too, in turn ought to point out any deficiency and lack of enterprise which has helped in keeping the level of our prosperity so low. I venture to suggest to the Committee that by this system of investigation they would find that the shortcomings of the average industrialist have contributed more to our failure to make an upward thrust in exports than has the average worker through strikes in this country.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson), in a most impressive speech, which did not receive the acclamation of Members on the other side of the Committee—it was, in my opinion, an expressive speech, despite anything said to the contrary—referred to the effects of the first two Measures of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I would say to the Chancellor and the Government that the working people of this country will not forget so easily the action that has been taken about increased contributions through the new Health Service charges. These were—let no one deny it—further penalties upon the people least able to bear them. As was pointed out in the debate we had upon those charges, the imposition of such a polltax system as that will seriously affect many people. An appeal has gone out from this side of the Committee, but it has been ignored. We as a party make no apology for mounting an attack upon this Government for such disgraceful action as they have taken.
I said at the beginning of my speech that this Government have got their priorities wrong, and if we are to recover from our setback and to take our proper place in the world then they have got to be more conciliatory to the ordinary people in society than hitherto, and if they are not, it may mean not only that the Government will suffer, through the lack of confidence in their administration of affairs, but that the nation as a whole will suffer.
It appears from the arguments from the other side of the Committee that hon. and right hon. Members opposite believe that by being relieved the Surtax payers will work harder and better. I can only say that it leaves me with a sense of disgust that such could be the case. I look upon people as individuals, not a numbers, indivduals with a true sense of decency, but that is not supported by that
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expression of opinion about the effect of this Surtax relief. On the other hand, hardship has been imposed upon the people of this country, and in crisis after crisis during the last ten years this Government have directed that imposition should fall not upon those well positioned to bear the burden but upon the weakest section of our community.
Therefore, I claim that this Budget which has been presented by a new Tory Chancellor, which has received the praise and acclamation of his supporters, does not assist those people who are in need. I do not believe that it is the intention of the Government that it should be the case.
8.4 p.m.
Mr. Maurice Macmillan: Perhaps, having complained at the Chancellor's policies before, I may be allowed to congratulate him tonight, not only on his courage in presenting the measures he has put before us, but upon the determination for the future as shown in his speech and the confidence with which he approached the great problems which confront us.
May I welcome the threats—if that is not too strong a word for them—implied by both the Chancellor and the President of the Board of Trade yesterday? It would, perhaps, be better to call them warnings, warnings that there is a limit to the extent to which Government action, budgetary or otherwise, can help the economic situation, warnings that a great deal is now up to industry itself and that neither side of industry can expect indefinitely the protection of the inefficient, who may now feel certain that there is to be some degree of stick as well as some increase of carrot.
I hope that I am right in reading this into what the Chancellor and the President of the Board of Trade had to say, because there is a disappointing element in this Budget. Those of us who are pleased at the way in which the Chancellor and the Treasury are tackling the future should not allow our pleasure to prevent us from expressing our desire for still more.
Hon. Members: More what?
Mr. Macmillan: I myself was disappointed that there was not a deeper reform of our tax system. We were assured by the Chancellor that he is

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continuing that. I hope that this will enable him to look again at the whole question of company and individual taxation, and that in doing so he will perhaps be able to find a slightly less blunt instrument than the poll tax, the payroll tax, which has been introduced as a temporary expedient to deal with emergencies, because really if we think carefully of this payroll tax we see that its nature is more effective as a permanent weighting of the cost of labour compared with the cost of machinery in industrial production and less effective as a temporary measure than either the Customs or Excise powers may be. I think there is still room for a deeper reform of our tax system, not least in the field of Surtax and capital gains tax, which I do not, I hasten to add, advocate, though I hope to say a word about it in a minute or two when I come to investment and savings, about which I feel, as hon. Gentlemen opposite guess, most strongly.
There is a great deal to be done still to increase the use of capital equipment. I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Mr. D. Price) who made the point that investment alone is not enough and that it is the efficient use of capital as well as labour which we have got to aim for. I am still not convinced that there are not various methods of accelerating the rate at which machinery could be written off which would greatly help our export trade.
Nor am I happy about the methods being used to prevent the hoarding of labour. We on this side are not seeking a pool of unemployment, as has been said. The whole point is that such measures to prevent hoarding of labour are only necessary and only effective if there is work for the labour displaced by those measures to go to, otherwise there would be no point in doing it at all; the situation would not have arisen. So I think there is reason for saying that as a permanent reform it is not at all relevant to this situation.
I do not want to weary the Committee with what has been said before, but I do hope that this period, which the Chancellor has said he is going to use to examine our tax structure and examine what he can do for the future, he will also use for the sort of examination of
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industry in detail which has already been suggested in the Committee today and which many of us have recommended in earlier debates on the economic situation.
There is a great deal yet to be gone into there, both on the side of managements and the side of labour. The hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) made great play about the need for management to encourage apprenticeship in order to get greater skill in industry. It is not only managements that make it difficult for young men and boys to become apprentices. There are industries in which the restriction of new entry becomes a trade union concern. I hope that the inquiries now going on will throw some light on that situation.
In order to secure the growth we need in our economy, we must have this sort of examination of the problems of individual industries. It may well be that we shall have to consider an extension of the principle of the Restrictive Practices Act so that it applies to the subject of labour as well as capital and management. If I remember rightly, that was part of many of our election manifestos in 1945. It certainly has appeared from time to time in party documents since then. I would say that it is almost time that we started to act as well as talk about this problem.
But, apart from the individual problems, there is the great difficulty which we have all been discussing of what is now known as "growth". I am certainly no restrictionist, and I would very much favour an expansionist economy. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins), who dwelt at some length on this subject, rather under-estimated the conflict which arises between our banking and trading interests, for example in the use of funds at our disposal in the International Monetary Fund. I do not know how much it is possible for a banker to borrow without causing loss of confidence. In commerce there is no difficulty about a business going to a bank and requiring an overdraft, but what would town or country think if that bank itself wanted an overdraft to enable it to carry on? It may be that because of short-term difficulties, caused possibly by the reduction of tariffs and the increase of imports, we

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may require to borrow in a way that we cannot do without endangering confidence in sterling.
Hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have said that the real answer is to increase our export trade, and in this connection I should like to say something about Surtax. I feel that it is much more a question of general stimulation of economic activity than the provision of direct incentives to individuals, just as in the Common Market it is not really the tariffs put up against individual goods and the products of individual industries that are the great difficulty, but the whole climate of opinion created in the middle of Europe by what the Europeans themselves call economic inter-penetration. It is that kind of climate of opinion and stimulus of activity that we require in this country, and a desire to sell and a feeling that we can go ahead. I believe that these measures are beginning to produce just that climate.
The hon. and learned Member for Kettering said that he did not know what effect Surtax has on the efficiency of executives. In small businesses it may well have an effect. When there is a high level of Surtax, to get the level of man required, he may well have to be paid so much gross than an employer can afford only one such person when he needs two, and so he has to do with someone else less good in another capacity. This is a facet of the problem which has not yet been mentioned in the debate, but in smaller businesses of which I have personal experience it is a very real difficulty. It is also a difficulty which leads to the use of marginal, fringe benefits instead of direct payments, which I hope sincerely will begin to die down under these concessions.
There is one gross omission from the Budget. It has been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann), and I share his deep regret that nothing has been done to help or stimulate savings. I know that National Savings and other personal savings are running at a high level, but I do not think that there is any reason why in this sort of Budget some further encouragement to saving should not have been given. There are many ways in which it could be stimulated. I will not worry the Committee with them now, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for
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Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Stevens) said yesterday, minor concessions can be sought by way of moving new Clauses to the Finance Bill later. These sorts of concessions create no balance-of-payments difficulties. Nor do they create inflation, because by definition they are concessions in taxation given only to money saved and not to money spent which causes demands for goods.
There is, however, one wider consideration in this matter of saving to which I should like to refer. It seems to me that we are now in danger of facing a division of our population not so much into the haves and have-nots as into those who have a direct share and those who have only an indirect share in prosperity, those who, as it were, are participators at second-hand. In some ways the great increase in national savings emphasises this difference, because it is an increase in institutional saving and not in the direct participation by individuals in industry. There is a similar and parallel trend on the side of those who are in employment, because as businesses tend to increase in size so the individuals in them tend to become less independent and less important in every way.
We are forming in some ways an élite in taxation and high earnings of managers and skilled workers, but it is a dependent élite, depending either on the State or large-scale industry, depending for wages, in some cases for houses, and for pensions, whether top hat schemes or the new scheme of the Minister of Pensions.
I hope that tax concessions given to Surtax payers will help to increase their independence, but I would point out to the Economic Secretary, who talked about the mobility of senior executives, that nothing ties the senior executive more than having his pension rights and the whole of his future and that of his family firmly anchored to one firm and being unable to move out of it. A matching concession to relieve taxation on income saved might have gone very well with this Surtax concession, because the higher earners are not in any way directly encouraged to save. They get concessions indirectly by tax savings on annuities and so on, but again their savings are attached to those of an institution and to that extent they are losing independence.

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We are seeing an ever greater divorce between ownership on the one hand and management on the other, and a divorce between labour and ownership at a lower and on a smaller scale, and the Budget contains nothing designed to meet that difficulty. I know that this is part of a wider problem and that all these things are being looked at. I sincerely hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer can reassure us that he is going into all these matters as well as going into what he has already told us about. We know that he is to examine taxation and monetary policy, including international monetary policy, as far as that is possible. He has implied that he will look at industrial organisation. I hope that that includes the examination of all restrictive practices.
I fear that we have not seen any sign that my right hon. and learned Friend is looking more deeply into the social implications of all this. I do not often agree with the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson), but on this occasion I think that he is right in saying that it is not right to examine this or, indeed, any other Budget without considering both the scope and the financing of the social services. This is obviously not the time to go into it in great detail, but I hope that we can be told that this is a problem which is being dealt with comprehensively. It is a question of how much it is to be left to the individual to pay for the necessities and how much is to be undertaken by the State. I do not think that anybody on either side of the Committee would go so far as to say that all the necessities of life should be provided by the State through taxation and wages and salaries provide only for the luxuries. I do not think that anybody on either side of the Committee would say that no necessities should be paid for by the State but that we should go back to the old laissez faire idea. Somewhere between the two extremes there is a level which is suited to 1961.
Our social services are based on a Report which contained only pre-war information. My hon. Friend the Economic Secretary was taunted for thinking as far back as 1951, but our social services are based on the economic conditions of 1931. It is time for an unbiassed study similar to that made by
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Lord Beveridge of what is suitable, possible and desirable in the context of the present day. That is one of the things which must be tackled soon before we can get a really comprehensive reform either of the taxation or fiscal system or of our economic policy in general.
After all, I am not asking for very much. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Budget has begun to paddle in the waters of 1961, and I am only asking him to get right in and swim. If he examines these problems, I have no doubt that he will find that changes are needed. He showed in his Budget statement and in the Motions he proposed that he is not frightened of drastic or far-reaching changes. It has been implied in the debate that perhaps some of his colleagues are.
If that is so, I can only advise my right hon. and learned Friend to remind them of the words used by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. It is true that they were written in 1938, but they still apply:
"However drastic and far-reaching changes may be, if they are in line with the trend of evolutionary development, they do not invite a plunge into the unknown. They are thus more likely to receive the assent of the instructed section of the community, on whose shoulders will fall the responsibility of carrying them into effect."
These are wise words, and I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the course of the next year will heed them.
8.24 p.m.
Mr. John Diamond: I hope that I shall not embarrass the hon. Member for Halifax (Mr. Maurice Macmillan) by saying that many of us on this side of the Committee will undoubtedly agree with a good deal of what he said. His has been about the only speech from the Tory side which has admitted that public expenditure is not necessarily a vice. The general view of back benchers opposite is that all public expenditure is a vice. To satisfy the Financial Secretary, I counter that by saying that the general view on this side is that all public expenditure is a virtue. We do not think that all private expenditure, especially expenditure on luxuries, is a virtue.
The hon. Member for Halifax is prepared to look at the problem objectively. That is some advance, at all events. He said that he is an expansionist. We

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welcome that. He said that a great deal had to be done about exports. We agree. In particular, he said that the Surtax relief would not solve that problem. We particularly agree with that sentiment. Although the hon. Gentleman was right in saying that the Government were justified in saying to trade and industry that it must do a great deal itself, that is not a sufficient argument to justify the President of the Board of Trade washing his hands of the whole problem of increasing exports, as, in effect, he did in his speech yesterday. He said that he found the problem difficult and left it to industry, in effect.
That is not sufficient. The Government have done many things which have deterred exports and have not done sufficient to encourage exports. As the whole of our difficult situation stems from inadequate exports, which, in turn, stem from inadequate productivity, efficiency, design and determination to export, perhaps I may weary the Committee by dwelling for a few minutes on that topic. It is perfectly true that it is difficult for the Government to influence exports, because a study of the problem and the researches into it shows that achievement varies as between firm and firm, as between big firm and big firm, as between little firm and little firm, and as between two firms of the same size in the same industry. There is no general pattern which the Government can necessarily pick upon and say, "This is what is causing inadequate attention to exports, and this is what we must do".
Nevertheless, there are certain things the Government should not do. What the Government should not do is to proclaim continuously that things are so satisfactory that there is no need to do anything about them. The hon. Member for Halifax mentioned the Prime Minister. Perhaps the hon. Member is more entitled than anybody else in the Committee to mention the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister has said many times, particularly at election time, but also at many other times, that we have never had it so good, that things are very satisfactory, that the balance of payments situation is satisfactory, and that the economy is so healthy.
I do not know why the Financial Secretary is looking amused. It is not surprising if ordinary men, who find it
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easy to get orders on the home market but difficult to get orders on the export market, say to themselves, "Why should I break my neck? Why should I go to all this trouble, with all the extra forms and additional overheads, if it is not necessary and I have it on the authority of the Prime Minister that things are all right? Why should I pay attention to that lunatic accountant of mine who is advising me to do these things, saying that it is necessary in the long-term interests of industry in this country, when I have the authority of the Prime Minister and of the President of the Board of Trade for paying no attention to him?"
The Government must stop creating a soft attitude. They must, instead, engender a hard and tough attitude. The inherent attitude of businessmen in this country is to rely on the home market and not on exports. I never saw that so clearly as just before the war, when we had a great number of refugees, particularly from Germany, starting businesses here. I was closely concerned with them. Time and time again I noticed that, whereas the Englishman in business was satisfied to work hard in the home market, the German refugee, naturally, and without any economic drive or incentive, looked to the foreign markets. He did not concern himself with the fact that what he was producing might have no market in this country. The pattern of his thinking was the drive for exports. There is a natural tendency in this country to rely on the home market, and we must encourage more and more a tendency to go into exports.
If this past year has shown us anything new, it is that we are no longer entitled to correlate investment and increased investment with increases in efficiency and, therefore, increases in exports, knowing, as we do, that efficiency leads to greater competitiveness and easier means of exporting. Although there has been an increase in investment, it has not been matched by increases in productivity. We must take this important factor fully into account.
The explanation is that we were a little slovenly, or tended towards over simplification, in correlating increased investment with increased productivity. Increased investment is merely the manner in which we clothe bright ideas, and it

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is these which are lacking. If bright ideas are lacking, then investment is barren. We need more bright ideas and the stimulation of bright ideas. Far from stimulating them, however, the Government have been depressing and holding them back by creating this generally soft attitude.
My second point is that if the Government interfere too hastily with the flow of orders of a particular industry, like the motor car industry, they tend to disrupt the export trade. The motor car industry lost a great many exports when it had to cancel overseas orders and extend export delivery dates as a result of the enormously increased pull of the home market when hire-purchase restrictions were removed. The Government cannot play about with such restrictions, affecting, as they do, particular industries in that way.
I appeal to the Government to create this hard attitude, because it can be demonstrated that it works. The point of time when the motor car industry started to go overseas and to increase exports enormously—and one should remember that 95 per cent. of some types of car are exported—was when the Labour Government told it, "No more motor cars for the home market. If you want to manufacture, look abroad."
The point of time at which the aircraft industry, which is also vital for exports, went into the export business in earnest was when the Government defence programme passed its peak and began to come down rapidly, when the Government said, "No more aircraft for the home market; look abroad." These were the two occasions which marked the tremendous increase in the rate of exports of these two new and important export industries.
The chemical and steel industries are also important for exports, I do not want to be to controversial, but one of the major arguments for the nationalisation of the steel industry is the inadequate construction and investment in it, leading to shortages of steel supplies which could be exported. Not only the steel manufacturers, but those making up steel components into articles sold abroad have been held up because of shortage of steel.
In the chemical industry there is the same story. I want to quote from an
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article by the Assistant Director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, published recently in The Times, which told us about comparative American and British experience in building and investment in the chemical industry.
"When planning new capacity, Americans tend to err on the high side and this gives them a competitive advantage in exports, especially in chemicals. But, as one manufacturer said, 'we had not the guts to put up a large enough plant'".
That is what one manufacturer said to the investigators investigating on behalf of the social research team, that "we had not the guts to put up a large enough plant".
I speak from first-hand knowledge. I will not identify the industry too closely, nor the individual. That would not be proper, but I speak from first-hand knowledge about an industry which has built a large new plant. I asked the managing director to state the basis on which he had decided the size of the plant. He said that it was to satisfy possible demands of the home market. I asked him about a new plant being built in Holland for the identical product and the basis on which that had been built. He said that it was to satisfy the home market there, plus a good deal more. I then asked, why a good deal more? He said that that was their attitude. They put down plant sufficient to supply more than the home market because they feel that this would drive them and encourage them to export. That was the attitude of mind, and I repeat that we should refrain from creating a soft attitude and create a hard attitude to encourage the need to seek export trade.
I do not want to refer too closely to the payroll tax, because time does not permit, and there will be occasions later, when we can go into it in more detail. At all events, if the Government have this in mind, they could be more helpful by using employment exchanges and various other methods open to them to encourage skilled labour which is in short supply to go to those firms which are greatly concerned in the export market. Indeed, the more they are concerned with the export market the more help should be given to them and less help given to those who merely look to the home market to sell their products.

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Those are various methods by which the Government could help. As the hon. Member for Halifax said, the Government could help enormously by adopting the attitude of mind which exists in the Common Market.
Mr. Loughlin: I hope that my hon. Friend will not misunderstand me, but I ask him to make it clear that when he talks about the possibility of the Government, through their agencies, assisting export industries to get labour he has not in mind any form of direction of labour.
Mr. Diamond: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I thought that it would have been clear that I had no such intention in mind, but I am grateful to my hon. Friend for enabling me to clarify the point. I have no such intention in mind, but the fact remains that when employers need labour they go to the employment exchanges, and servants of the Government are there to assist them. It should be possible for those Government servants to give more assistance in one direction and less in another, and create the attitude of mind that if employers need skilled labour, which is probably the greatest need of manufacturers and exporters, they will have to state the proportion of their products which are exported. It could be 20 per cent., 30 per cent. or 50 per cent.; the more the manufacturers exported, the more help they would receive.
I have already referred to the Common Market and the dynamic attitude which exists there. It would make an enormous difference if we were to adopt that attitude of mind.
One other point which I know will not find general acceptance is that the need is not only for scientists and technologists, but for men in the Arts as well as particular artists. I am most impressed by the way in which Italy has increased her export trade purely as a result of the design of her products. I cannot imagine people living in Florence not producing excellent designs. The design of goods is something to which we pay too little attention. We can achieve a great deal more in the export market, not merely on a competitive price basis, or even on the strength of our salesmanship, which is not bad.
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When I was in the United States a short time ago the Americans said that the reason why we sell abroad so well was that our salemanship was a lot better than theirs.
We have to give credit where credit is due. Apart from these reasons there are many cases where sales take place purely on design, colour, form and packaging—all those things which appeal to the eye and create a demand, and which we tend to neglect in our very unaesthetic approach to building, and many other forms of work. The Government could do a great deal more to help exports. It is a vital need. They should not, as they seem to do, wash their hands of it and say, "We now leave it all to you".
The hon. Member for Halifax also said that he did not think that the Surtax provisions would solve the problem. This was a masterly understatement. The Surtax provisions were the main provisions in the Government's Budget, and I hope that I shall be allowed to spend a few minutes in bringing a little fresh air and clarity to this outworn, outdated, incorrect and folkloreish idea that high taxation is a deterrent to initiative and hard work. I am sorry to delay the Committee, but it will be appreciated that the whole of the Government's case is based on this idea. I must destroy thoroughly this ridiculous attitude, and also show that the alternative argument—that there is a general sense of injustice because of high taxation—does not apply.
I do not need to waste any time in demonstrating that this has nothing to do with exports. It is too absurd for words to suggest that a rebate to all Surtax payers is a direct encouragement to exports. I want to deal with the question on the much more fundamental basis that there is no evidence to support the theory that high rates of taxation are a deterrent to incentive and hard work. The most difficult point at which to seek to disprove this theory is the point at which P.A.Y.E. and overtime operate. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) referred to the Royal Commission's conclusions about executives, but I want to take the case which is much more difficult for me to disprove—the case of the man who receives his pay every week, and out of whose earnings

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tax is deducted. If the high rate of taxation affects anybody it will affect that man, especially when he has to work overtime.
Three-quarters of those who were asked about the matter felt that this was a great deterrent to working overtime and to hard work generally. The Royal Commission had heard witnesses who said this, although they had not supported it by any figures. The Royal Commission therefore thought it had better consider the matter more closely, and it made 1,500 inquiries of workers. Of every worker asked the question, "Do you think that this is a deterrent to hard work?" three-quarters replied "Yes." The Commission then asked the important question, "What about you? How much is it a deterrent to you? Never mind whot you think about the others—out of your own experience, how much of a deterrent is this to you?" One-third said that it was a deterrent and another one-third said that it was am encouragement. The numbers expressing the two opinions were almost exactly equal.
Those who needed the money had to work all the harder, the higher the rate of tax was, to pay for television sets, washing machines and similar appliances which they, in their simple and sensible budgeting regarded as extras. After devoting their basic wages to their wives they regarded what they earned in overtime as being suitable to spend on paying for additional household goods. The Royal Commission therefore came to the conclusion that the argument that this was a deterrent was not proven. The Trades Union Congress had previously looked into the matter and had reached the same conclusion.
I am sorry to bother the Committee with reports, but it is necessary for me to kill this idea stone dead. In a more recent report, which has already been referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) and can be read in HANSARD, P.E.P. came to the conclusion that there was no evidence to substantiate the idea that high taxation is a deterrent to incentive and hard work. The most recent report is that of the Medical Research Council. Its psychological team investigated the same matter and came to an identical conclusion. There is not a jot of evidence the other
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way—except the belief of so many people, and practically all hon. Members opposite, that high taxation is a deterrent.
It is interesting to us, as a social oddity, that so many people should hold a view which is such utter nonsense, but it is still held. It is held by businessmen almost unanimously. I have a great deal to do with businessmen, and I make it my business to ask as many as I can in important jobs, such as the managing directors of large businesses, "Do you believe that high taxation is a deterrent and that high rates of Surtax are a deterrent to hard working and initiative?" One hundred per cent. answer, "Yes". I then say to each one, "What about you?" How much less hard do you work because of the high rates of taxation?" Each one says, "I am an exception; I am different"; or, "I have an interesting job"; or, "I have my shareholders to look after"; or, "I want to make a success of my job"; or, "I enjoy working hard". They are all reasons which prompt human beings, and they are the true propellers to action.
One gets this answer time and time again. At luncheon time today, I asked the managing director of a very well-known firm, with branches all over the country, and with a great number of executives in the Surtax class, "What do your executives think of the Budget?" He said, "They are very pleased with the Surtax relief." I asked, "How much better will they work as a result of it?" "Don't be silly", he said, "These are people who have grown up with the firm and worked their way up into the position of executives. They are keen, loyal, and love to work hard. I can rely on them. It is an insult to them to suggest they are not working their hardest already."
Then we come to the professional men, the doctors who have been killing their patients until Surtax relief and who will now cure them! The solicitors who have drafted documents incorrectly and will now draw them correctly! The accountants who have been certifying balance sheets falsely and who will now sign them correctly and with honour because of the Surtax relief!
Do I have to refer to hon. Members opposite? One busy solicitor—I hope no one will press me for his name—said,

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"Of course, it is a great deterrent, and this Budget is a good thing because of that." I said, "How much harder will you work?" He said, "I am an exception". Every one of us is an exception. Every one of us who has a job of work does it because he is a human being, who moves by ordinary motives, of which financial profit is one, but not the most important one. What about the 300 hon. Members who sit opposite and who come here day after day and work hard for £1,750 a year less—what is the average on the other side?—£1,250 for expenses, leaving, say, £500 a year or £10 a week?
Mr. Willis: And a knighthood.
Mr. Diamond: I am talking about the Surtax relief on the £10 a week. Will they maintain that they will do their jobs a lot better and will turn up in the Division Lobbies more often because of Surtax relief? Is it not utter nonsense?
What about the President of the Board of Trade? I asked him, in an intervention yesterday, how much better he would work. He, too, is an exception. He said, "I have an incentive which money would not buy". He is dead right. He was caught on the hop and told us the complete truth. He is here to serve the country to the best of his ability and we respect him for that and understand it.
What nonsense it is, therefore, to say that we shall do our work better because of the Surtax relief, or that we have been deterred by high rates of Surtax. It is not a deterrent. It has never been a deterrent. Surtax relief cannot be justified on these grounds at all. If the grounds claimed are that a general sense of frustration has been caused by high rates of taxation generally, I invite the Committee to listen to the deductions in Surtax payers' taxation which have already taken place.
The Committee has been discussing Surtax as though it is entirely separate from other taxation and the Surtax payer has had no relief in the past, whereas we all know that Surtax is the higher rate of tax on the same income. Let us consider some of the savings to Surtax payers from 1951–52 to 1960–61, from the last year of the Labour Government to the latest year of the Tory Government.
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For a man earning £5,000, married and with two children, the effective rate of tax during those ten years has been reduced from 9s. 11d. to 7s. 1d. in the £ without these latest reductions. He has had a £700 reduction in his tax bill. The man earning £10,000 a year, who paid £6,500 ten years ago, now pays only about £5,000, having had a reduction of £1,400 before today's reductions are taken into account.
That man has had £1,400 given to him during these ten years. Is it necessary to give him another £1,300 in one fell swoop? Before this Budget, the man earning £10,000 a year, married and with two children, paid an effective tax rate of 10s. 3d. in the £, or approximately half. He spends half his money himself and he joins with the rest of us in spending the other half for needy objects. There is no general feeling of over-taxation which has given him a sense of frustration.
Therefore, neither on the ground of deterrent, nor on the ground of a general sense of being too highly taxed and a sense of frustration stemming from it, can these Surtax proposals be justified. They can, however, be utterly condemned, because for the first time the richest section of the community is being chosen to be given something.
There is nothing in the Budget for the ordinary taxpayer, nothing for the small man about whom we hear so much from the benches opposite, nothing for the pensioner, nothing for the people, who help in our export trade—the scientist, the laboratory manager, or the young executive getting £2,000 a year.
Mr. Woodburn: There is no election this year.
Mr. Diamond: That is true. I am trying to increase our exports, to get the country out of this dreadful position in which people cannot export because we immediately get into balance of payments difficulties. I am trying to get the country out of this vicious circle. I am demonstrating that far from helping, the Budget will do precisely the reverse.
How pleased will the laboratory assistant, the young technician, or manager feel when he knows that in this one Budget, the boss is given £1,400, £1,500, or £1,700 a year when he does not have

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a penny for himself? How co-operative will that make him in the terms described last night by the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mr. D. Price)? It was the hon. Member for Eastleigh who has made the best speech in this debate from the opposite benches, including his own Front Bench. He did not say that Surtax was a deterrent, or that the Budget would solve our export problems.
The hon. Member said that he believed in having a happy boss and that one of the ways of making the boss happy was to give him an Income Tax rebate, to reduce his Surtax. How happy will the 19 million ordinary employees who get nothing out of the Budget feel when they know that a quarter of a million people will get £80 million to spend between them whilst they themselves get nothing?
Far from helping in our export drive, this will be a great deterrent. It is unfair, this pandering to the greed of the Tory backwoodsmen. It is merely going to the lowest level, satisfying those who said such dreadful things about Lord Amory, the Chancellor last year, who kicked him out, who maligned and attacked him, as a result of which he resigned and has gone to another place. It is that opinion which has won this year. It is the dissent of that opinion which has produced this grossly unjust Budget.
Here we are, at 8.55 p.m., discussing Surtax relief. In a few hours from now we shall be discussing welfare foods that are required by the most needy in our Welfare State. It is no use the Government trying to hide their shame behind the pretence that this Budget is concerned with Profits Tax. The facts of the situation are, as we all know, that £65 million was taken out of the National Health Service and the next thing we knew was that over £80 million would be given to Surtax payers. No one can deny the historical sequence of events. If the Government had not made up their mind to make a Surtax reduction of this extent, they need not have touched the National Health Service, the welfare foods, or any of the other much needed services.
It is a shameful situation and I am delighted that my right hon. and hon. Friends will vote against this Budget.
8.57 p.m.
Mr. Stanley R. McMaster: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond) was not fair to those hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who also want to take part in this debate, particularly from the important point of view of Northern Ireland.
This Budget, which we have been discussing for three days, is an extremely tough Budget. It was presented by the Chancellor as a tough Budget, and I regret that it does not give more relief to the Income Tax payer. I say that quite frankly, though on the other hand I welcome the minor changes, particularly those affecting the victims of Nazi persecution. I realise, also, the great emphasis which has been given throughout the debate to the importance of exports and, therefore, the necessity to control consumption at home.
I welcome the changes which were announced just before the Budget to E.C.G.D. These changes, coupled with the investment allowance assurance of 40 per cent., will be of particular help to Britain's shipbuilding industry. I am particularly interested, of course, in the shipbuilding yards of Northern Ireland, where the threat of unemployment at the moment is severe.
I regret that the E.C.G.D. changes seem to have been coupled with the Budget and thus have come rather late in the year, with the result that we have lost several important contracts. I recently read about these lost contracts, one of which went to Germany, and another—for road construction equipment—went to the Argentine because Britain could not offer the same guarantee or cover in order to obtain the necessary finance, as could our overseas competitors. The reduction in Stamp Duty on bills of exchange will also help the exporter. Today I saw a Bill of Exchange stamp to the value of £20. The reduction to 2d. is bound to encourage British exporters.
The major factor in the Budget is no doubt the two new regulators which the Chancellor announced could be used at any time during the year. I agree in principle with the idea that the regulators should be used at any time during the year. This was recommended in the Radcliffe Committee's Report, as I said, in connection with the

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E.C.G.D. It is a great pity that important changes like this should in the past always have been linked to the Budget. They have been well received by the financial and business editors in the national Press.
I welcome the two regulators, but I should like to qualify what I have said with a few words on the payroll tax. I agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mrs. McLaughlin) said earlier. She expressed great apprehension about the payroll tax. The threat of a payroll tax was very badly received in Scotland, Northern Ireland and other depressed areas with high unemployment. We require more details, and I would ask the Financial Secretary to provide them. I consider that the details should have been much more clearly thought out before the Budget.
If this tax is to be used solely as a regulator, then the case for exempting development areas in Britain and Northern Ireland seems to be very strong. Such regulators are totally inappropriate to such parts of the United Kingdom. However, if there were exemption for such parts of the United Kingdom, we should have a very desirable effect, one which is apparently embodied in the Distribution of Industry Act, because manufacturers whose industry had a high labour content would be encouraged to set up in those areas, and that would help more than anything else to solve the unemployment problems in such areas in Northern Ireland and Scotland.
I urge the Chancellor to give special thought to the suggestion that such areas should be exempted. I welcome what the Chancellor has already said and what the Economic Secretary said today with respect to Northern Ireland. If such a payroll tax is imposed, the yield will be paid back to the Exchequer in Northern Ireland, but that in any event will be used for ordinary Government purposes similar to those under the Distribution of Industry Act, and something more than that is required.
I wish to consider for a moment the serious effect on industries with a high labour/production ratio, industries which are called "labour intensive", such as shipbuilding, textiles, mining and transport. Many of these industries can least afford this tax, and yet they contribute a very high proportion of their
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output to exports than other industries such as brewing, electricity and property, which are "capital intensive" and employ little labour.
Also, the effect on apprenticeship schemes of the suggested payroll tax should be considered by my right hon. and learned Friend. As was pointed out in a leading article in The Times today, such a payroll tax would have a very bad effect on apprenticeships because it would make it very expensive for firms to engage in such schemes.
Let us for a moment examine the purpose of this tax. If the regulator has been introduced in order to supplement existing physical and monetary regulators—Bank Rate, and so on—the introduction of such a weapon in order to restrict consumption and so relieve pressure on the export industries is surely inappropriate. I have two criticisms to make here: first, as a regulator, its effect is much too slow; secondly, instead of helping exports, particularly marginal exports, it will tend to increase prices at a time when we need to keep prices down in order to help exports.
On the other hand, if it is intended to stop the hoarding of labour and to encourage investment in labour-saving capital equipment and automation, it should be applied straight away so that it can be taken into account by manufacturers in their estimating. How can a shipbuilder quote a firm price if suddenly he has to pay 1s.-4s. extra tax per head of all his employees, not to mention the probable increase in prices of his raw materials and other factors? The greatest disadvantage of this weapon is its uncertainty. Far better regulators are the Special Deposits and other monetary controls.
So far as labour hoarding is concerned, will the 4s. per head be effective? The motor-car industry appears to have been vindicated of hoarding labour, as its recent successes in Geneva and New York indicate. Were these firms wrong in keeping on their employees short time? This proposal will only put up the costs of such firms at a time when they are most anxious to enter new markets.
Another important point is this. Is automation in factories to be based on the assumption that in future there is

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going to be a payroll tax of 4s.—that is, I per cent. to 2 per cent. of labour costs? Machinery installed on this assumption could well be too expensive and not make the best use of capital and labour resources.
This is a most drastic weapon, and I should like to ask the Government whether they have put their own house in order. There is need for a radical reassessment of the needs of the economy. Railways appear to be spending too much. Their capital cost is too high and they are not making the best use of capital equipment. Mining is not being carried on in the most efficient manner. We are closing our opencast mines and concentrating on the labour intensive deep mines. Is this the best use of labour? Is the Civil Service economising in its labour? I am sorry to see an increase in Profits Tax. This cannot help our export industry and it can only put up costs.
With these qualifications, I welcome this Budget and I support my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West in her remarks on the recommendations to the Northern Ireland Government which are being considered at the moment. I hope they will be given speedy consideration in order to help industry in Northern Ireland.
9.8 p.m.
Mr. Douglas Jay: I have some sympathy with the predicament in which the Chancellor found himself when preparing his Budget. I do not really suppose that the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself, to do him credit, believed all this rubbish about potential exporters all over the country being held back because they were sulking about Surtax. The right hon. and learned Gentleman was once a Liberal. He has had a somewhat chequered career in his last office, and I suppose he felt that he had to prove he was a real Tory this time.
The President of the Board of Trade in January made a public speech saying that Surtax ought to come down, and then there were a lot of weekend visits at Chequers in which there were a number of public leaks to the effect that the Prime Minister, too, thought that some concession should be given on Surtax. Therefore, I am afraid the wretched
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Chancellor was put in a position in which he had to do something of this kind, whether he liked it or not.
The President of the Board of Trade said yesterday that we ought to have social justice even among Surtax payers. Incidentally, the President seemed to forget that all the reductions that we have had in the standard rate of Income Tax over the past years have benefited Surtax payers already. With the general proposition of equity among Surtax payers I entirely agree. But if the President of the Board of Trade thinks that social justice among Surtax payers has been achieved by the Chancellor's proposals he cannot have studied the actual tax tables in the Financial Statement very closely. The more one studies these tables the more it becomes apparent that the Chancellor has given these huge and extravagant Surtax concessions in practically the most inequitable way possible. He has handed hardly any of the benefit to the people whom he was professing to encourage—the young and active export salesmen and executives and so forth.
I cannot help thinking that the Chancellor must have been so bemused by the one-ninth, the two-ninths, the £2,000 and the £4,000 and all the rest of it, that he did not investigate what he was actually doing to the real taxpayers with actual incomes and their actual circumstances in real life. He said that he was going to help—and these are his own words in his Budget speech—the "managers, scientists and technologists", but if we look at the tax tables we find that it is not the £3,000 a year man, the £4,000 a year man, and even the £5,000 a year man, who benefit most. Apparently they are below the level at which the Tory Party cares.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman has given away by this Budget nearly half the whole yield of Surtax—an enormous tax relief—of which the heaviest benefit, proportionately, goes to the £10,000 a year, £12,000 a year and £15,000 a year incomes. Taking the single taxpayer on £3,000 a year, the tax paid as a result of these changes comes down from £907 to £794—about £113 a year—but at £10,000 a year it comes down by £1,250 a year, and at £20,000 a year by £1,800 a year. The £10,000 a year man actually gets relief by these proposals equal to practically

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the whole of the tax paid by the £4,000 a year man; or, to put it another way, at £3,000 a year the tax is cut by these proposals by about one-seventh, but at £10,000 a year it is cut by nearly one-quarter.
Mr. Gresham Cooke: The more tax one pays, the more remission one gets.
Mr. Jay: I thought the hon. Gentleman would say that, but did he not notice what I have just said—that the percentage reduction in the tax is much higher at £10,000 a year than at £3,000 or £4,000 a year? I ask the Chancellor whether he meant to do it that way. Has he studied the tax tables and how his proposals will work out?
This is fantastically inequitable and bad for incentive, even between Surtax payers. It does not encourage or energise the great bulk of the technologists, managers and scientists, the people whom I agree ought to be helped. The income figures in the tax tables are net incomes after deduction of superannuation subscriptions and all the other allowable expenses, and this means that a man is classed in the tax tables at £10,000 a year in plain language is receiving altogether probably £12,000, £13,000 a year or rather more.
The scientists, technologists, export salesmen and the great bulk of managers, and every single worker in the publicly-owned industries, except Dr. Beeching, are not being paid £12,000 or £15,000 a year at all. They are receiving £2,500, £3,000 or perhaps £4,000, and they get an almost negligible proportion of the Chancellor's huge give-away. It is, in fact, the company chairman, the pluralist directors, the property dealers and the very wealthy who get the larger windfall from these proposals.
Secondly, these concessions are not limited, as the Chancellor tried to imply in his Budget speech, to earned Surtax income at all. I wonder whether the Committee realises, though I suppose the Chancellor does, that by this extraordinary method of tax reduction a man getting £1,500 a year on earned income gets nothing from this Budget. But if he is receiving £1,500 of earned income plus £1,500 of unearned income, if single, he gets £42 a year. If he receives £2,000 a year all earned he gets nothing at all. But if he gets £2,000 a year earned income, plus £2,000 a year unearned, he
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gets £80 a year to encourage him to more initiative and enterprise. That is not a tax relief for earned income at all. It is partly a relief for unearned income; for it is the possession of unearned income which carries one into the zone which gets the tax relief. I wonder if the Chancellor knew that was what he was doing, and how he justifies it.
Moreover, the proposed cuts are quite inequitable as between smaller and larger families; and they heavily aggravate what, in my view, is the worst defect of our direct tax system already, namely, its extreme unfairness at almost every level of income between the single earner and the earner with a number of dependants. Some figures have been given before today. To take one example, at £3,000 a year a single person will now receive a bonus from the Chancellor of £113 a year. A married couple with three children will receive £60. At £4,000 a year, the single earner receives £287 a year, but the couple with three children receives £113. What possible relation has that with incentives, and how can the Chancellor justify it?
I sum up the Chancellor's extraordinary proposals in this way. They are highly inequitable even between Surtax payers. The concessions go to a vast number of people not engaged in exporting at all. They give very little indeed to the great majority of salaried managers, scientists and executives; and many very wealthy taxpayers will benefit simply because they have large unearned incomes.
In addition, the Chancellor's concessions to the very large incomes are more lavish even than those given by the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft), the present Minister for Aviation, in his 1957 concessions to the Surtax payer. The right hon. Member for Monmouth gave about £500 a year to the single taxpayer with an earned income of £10,000 a year. The present Chancellor is giving him about £1,250 a year. The 1957 Budget gave about £500 also to the man earning £20,000 a year. The present Chancellor gives £1,800. Without question, therefore, on the evidence of the Chancellor's own tax tables, this Budget is the largest and most vicious step backwards towards economic inequality and social injustice in this country since 1939. Taking it in the context of the steep rises in the

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Health Service charges and National Insurance contributions introduced in the last few months, which will be paid by those earning the lowest wages, it must be regarded as the most reactionary Budget introduced in this century, with one exception, the Budget of September, 1931, which was memorably described by Lord Keynes at the time as "replete with folly and injustice". For the President of the Board of Trade to describe the Budget yesterday as an act of social justice was the greatest piece of nonsense and humbug I have ever heard. No wonder it was found necessary to postpone the Budget until after the local elections.
The Budget and the Health Service charges follow a series of other measures by the party opposite during the past five years designed to increase inequality. The total yield of National Insurance contribution and Health Service charges is now over £1,100 million a year. This exceeds the total yield of all Income Tax on wages and salaries, and, of course, it represents a major and highly reactionary change in our tax system imposed by a Tory Government. There is no doubt now that the total weekly levy paid in Income Tax and contributions together becomes a higher proportion of income as one goes down the scale from £10 or £9 a week.
From next July—I suppose the Chancellor realises this—an employee contracted out of the Government's superannuation scheme—incidentally, perhaps against his will—will pay 12s. 2d. a week in contribution, even though he is earning not more than £8 a week, as many people still do today. Can the Chancellor really deny that such a worker earning £8 a week will pay a higher total proportion of his income in tax and contribution together than many people earning a great deal more? In my view, that 12s. 2d. a week, and, indeed, the general 10s. 7d., is an iniquitous burden for a man with that level of income and several dependants to support. Indeed, the regressive principle it represents is a contradiction of the policies followed by progressive Chancellors in this country for the last fifty years.
In addition to that, in addition to these tax changes, dividends have been increasing faster than wages for a number
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of years past. The Chancellor made no estimate of this at all in his Budget statement. I wonder whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman even looked at the facts here before deciding to make these precise tax concessions. According to his White Paper on National Income and Expenditure, the total income from employment, that is wages, salaries and pensions—before tax, of course—has risen since 1955 by 33·8 per cent. But total dividends and interest payments have risen by 58 per cent. in the same number of years. The truth is that, even without allowing for a much greater prevalence of tax avoidance among Surtax payers than among the unfortunate P.A.Y.E. population, the inequality of incomes has undoubtedly been increasing in this country within the last six years.
On top of this, and what is probably even more important, capital gains have been persistently increasing the economic advantage enjoyed by that small majority of the population which happens to own equity shares. I am grateful to the Financial Secretary for assisting me by correspondence to make an estimate of how great are these annual gains. The fact that emerges from the annual statistics is that the total annual undistributed profits of companies nowadays, after tax and dividends and after depreciation, has risen to about £1,000 million a year. That is an addition to the private property which equity holders enjoy annually without making any effort or putting up any new money at all. It means, in fact, that any owner of a well-spread group of equity shares is receiving an increasing income of at least 5 per cent. a year at the present time without lending any more money, and, of course, the value of his property is going up by very much more.
Mr. Leonard Cleaver Mr. Leonard Cleaver (Birmingham, Yardley) rose—
Mr. Jay: I am afraid there is no time for me to give way to the hon. Gentleman.
I see that the equity income of the Prudential from its reserves rose by 18 per cent. last year; and that is in one year alone. This, of course, is the reason for the persistent upsurge of equity prices which were carried to a

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new all-time record yesterday as a result of the Chancellor's Budget. Yet at a time when all this is going on and these huge capital gains are accruing to a small minority the Government insists on still investing the whole of the funds of the National Insurance Fund in gilt-edged; and the Chancellor had to admit to me at Question Time last February that the value of gilt-edged held by that Fund has depreciated by £338 million since 1951. That is actually six times the total yield of the contribution he is levying in the present year.
Frankly, I think that any Chancellor who invests the whole of the contributors' money in gilt-edged at the present time, and none in equities, is not performing his duties as a trustee and is not keeping faith with the contributors to the Fund. I see that the Prudential, if I may quote it again, last year invested 30 per cent. of its new investment funds in equities rather than gilt-edged.
I believe that the real moral of this persistent modern tendency for private capital gains in a mived economy like ours is that we ought to shift the emphasis of taxation increasingly on to capital gains and distributed company profits rather than on personal earned income.
These are the private receipts which are growing most rapidly and with the least effort, and with the most damaging effect on social equality. Yet yesterday the Chancellor told us—in 1961—in a few rather cursory and causal sentences, that he thinks a capital gains tax is impractical in this country. How can it be when the Americans have been working it for thirty-five years past? If the Chancellor wants to know how to work it, he has only to look at the memorandum which was written by the Inland Revenue and included in the final report of the Radcliffe Committee on taxation.
There is no truth either in the argument beloved by the party opposite that this country is staggering under some unique or intolerable burden of taxation or Government expenditure. The National Institute of Economic and Social Research has just exploded this myth once and for all. It has shown in its March review that it is not Britain but Western Germany which holds the
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record amongst the major countries for channelling the highest share of its national income through taxation and social security. West Germany comes out top of this list with 34 per cent. of her national income, and we follow with 29 per cent., France coming above us with 32 per cent. The President of the Board of Trade has been challenging us saying that if Germany was successful did we want to imitate her, but it is interesting to note that Germany devotes a higher proportion of national income on public expenditure than we in this country.
Nor is it even true that in fact our tax system before this Budget was more progressive than any other. It is not merely the Scandinavian countries but, as the National Institute shows again, it is the United States which raises a higher proportion in direct taxation and a lower proportion in indirect taxation than we do; and, indeed, even the marginal rates of direct tax on personal income at the highest level, even before this Budget, were higher in the United States than they are in this country.
But, of course, if the Chancellor really believes that his Surtax cuts are going to send a great impetus of energy through all our exporters, he has only to study the effect of the cuts which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Monmouth made in 1957. He came along with his spring Budget of 1957 and he told us, "Our theme is expansion," and he made a number of cuts in the Surtax. What happened? Between 1957 and 1958 we had the biggest fall in production in this country in any year since the war, and the biggest fall in the volume of exports in any year since the war, and a very large fall in investment as well. I may add, if it is any consolation to the Chancellor, that the then Chancellor resigned before his next Budget came round.
Therefore, I believe that the long-term changes we really need are a substantial tax on realised capital gains, a shift in Income Tax from personal earned income to distributed profits, a relief for small income earners, particularly those with large families, and an end to Purchase Tax on a number of household necessities on which it is still charged.

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I see something to be said for the Chancellor's plan for changes in the Excise taxes between Budgets, but I should like to ask him a question just to get the facts clear. I suppose it is not intended that the Government would impose a higher tax by this method on a number of commodities which bear Excise taxes before getting permission from Parliament—when, perhaps, Parliament might not be sitting—and then come along afterwards and ask for retrospective approval from this Committee? If that is what is proposed I think it would be highly objectionable. I think we should get that clear before this debate is over.
On the other hand, I must say that I see nothing whatever to be said for the idea of this payroll tax. In the first place, as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) said, it really is an insane policy to apply this sort of tax indiscriminately in areas which are troubled and perplexed by surplus labour. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will vote for the Amendment which we shall certainly put down to the Finance Bill to exclude all the development districts from the operation of this tax.
Mr. McMaster: And Northern Ireland?
Mr. Jay: And Northern Ireland.
But, quite apart from all that, it surely is rather a monumental piece of cynicism that we have been told for years that rises in labour costs would be inflationary and price us out of export markets and all the rest and now we are suddenly told that a rise in labour costs, provided it does not come through an increase in wages but through this tax, will be beneficial after all because it will stimulate industrial development. The Chancellor gave us a homily this week about higher wages, and then we had the extraordinary speech of the Economic Secretary this afternoon. But if this is really so and we are now told that a rise in labour costs is desirable, for heaven's sake let us have it by a rise in wage rates.
The truth, of course, is that any direct charge on costs of this kind, whether the National Insurance contribution or this surcharge, is a direct addition to
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financial costs and, therefore, to prices, including those of exports; whereas a tax coming out of profits to pay for our social benefits or anything else is not in the main an addition to costs or to prices. The Chancellor does not seem to realise that because we finance a great deal of social expenditure by taxes on profits rather than charges on costs, we confer a great competitive advantage on British exports throughout the markets of the world. It would be utter folly to throw this away just at the moment when we want to enhance the competitive power of our exports. I hope that we shall hear no more about this amateurish and half-baked proposal for a payroll tax which the Chancellor introduced.
The most remarkable feature of the debate perhaps has been the complacency and, indeed, the defeatist attitude of the Chancellor and the President of the Board of Trade towards the present plight of our balance of payments. We are, after all, faced with the highest United Kingdom deficit for ten years. The Government have performed a remarkable feat in achieving this in a year of high world trade and of terms of trade extremely favourable to this country. I still do not know what the Government mean to do about it.
The March returns of overseas trade show that there has been no significant improvement, and we have had absolutely no information in the debate about what Ministers propose to do if there is a severe exchange crisis this Autumn. Are they relying on some new form of help from the Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund? If so, we have been given extremely little information about the concrete methods by which this will be achieved.
We have been told often in debates on economic affairs that there is a dilemma between, the aims of growth and balance of payment solvency, and between incentives on the one hand and social justice on the other. But the astonishing fact is that in the last twelve months we have achieved neither growth, balance of payment surplus, price stability nor social justice. When the President of the Board of Trade asks what we on this side of the Committee would do, I have to remind him that his Government have been in power for ten years

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and have failed to achieve all the main objectives of an intelligent economic policy.
I am astonished when the Chancellor of the Exchequer argues, as he apparently does, that we are now fully employed and that demand is again pressing on our resources. It is extraordinary when production has stagnated in three years out of the last four, and the index of production published this morning shows no change at all since January of last year, to be told that we are now in a condition of over-employment and over-strain. Is it really the Government's view that after three years of stagnation, and one year of advance, we are now, after another twelve months of stagnation, producing to capacity and unable to stand a further stimulus? If that is true, it is an astonishing commentary on the way in which our economy has been conducted in the last few years. Production ought to increase by 4 per cent. or 5 per cent. a year. After a year of stagnation we ought to achieve by the end of next year a level of production at least 5 per cent. to 6 per cent. above what it is at present. But instead we are told that the brakes must be put on once again.
The other necessity for an expansionist policy—I am an unrepentant expansionist, like the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mr. D. Price)—is to keep our imports within the level that we can afford. There is no doubt whatever now, looking back on it, that the President of the Board of Trade's sweeping and unilateral removal of import controls in 1958 and 1959 was recklessly premature and was the cause of the 40 per cent. rise in manufactured imports which took place in that year, and of the balance of payments crisis from which we are now suffering and which is inhibiting any further expansion.
That is not merely our view, constantly expressed at the time. It is the view, as the President of the Board of Trade knows, even if the Chancellor of the Exchequer does not, of Sir Roy Harrod, who is a devout free trader and a passionate believer in G.A.T.T.
Now that the President of the Board of Trade has made the hasty blunder of taking these controls off, it is much harder to replace them, even though with a deficit of £344 million we should be perfectly entitled under the G.A.T.T.
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rules to do so. So the Government now find that they have to limit imports (because they have to be limited one way or the other), by holding back the growth of production and employment, and a reluctant Chancellor of the Exchequer is forced for this reason to balance the tax cuts that he wanted to make by tax increases at the same time and by increases in the health charges.
The irony is that this is where Tory freedom has now led us. It now deprives us, not merely of growth, social justice and international solvency, but even of the sweeping general cuts in taxation which I know that real Tories desire more passionately than anything else, except the restoration of corporal punishment.
9.37 p.m.
Mr. Alan Green: I have sat through the whole of the Budget debate, or at least most of it, and have heard many very interesting speeches. It would be presumptuous of me, particularly today, to try to answer particular points made today; and I have no intention of doing so.
There are, perhaps, one or two comments which might apply to speeches made by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. It is very easy, very natural and entirely understandable to make exaggerated attacks upon, or claims for—depending upon which side of the Committee one happens to sit—particular measures and particular purposes in such a matter as a Budget. I rather take the view of the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Rhodes), that these sort of polemics are not very appropriate today. I believe that very many people outside the House of Commons, and, indeed, inside it, are getting very bored with him. I want to avoid it if I possibly can.
Mr. Callaghan: I do not mean any personal offence to the hon. Gentleman. I have great respect for him. He has said that he does not intend to answer the points which have been made. There are 73 Ministers. The Financial Secretary has not been present throughout today's debate. We have not seen the First Lord of the Treasury. Is it not discourteous that we should not have a reply from the Government to the points which have been made from this side of the Committee?
Mr. Green: Sir Gordon, you called me. I believe it is a reasonable point to make that private Members, on which-ever side of the Committee they sit, still have some rights. I propose to exercise mine. The question raised by the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) is, no doubt, interesting, but a little irrelevant to this discussion. These polemics, though understandable, are not necessarily relevant.
If I understand hon. Members opposite correctly, they would welcome a differential in the rate of Profits Tax between undistributed and distributed profits, with a lower rate on undistributed profits; and a higher rate on distributed profits. It is, therefore, remarkable to find the right hon. Member for Batter-sea, North (Mr. Jay) suggesting that the growth of these undistributed and less highly taxed profits in the hands of owners of the equity would be a most undesirable social product. That is the kind of contradictory thing into which one falls if one goes too much into polemics and too little into the contents of the Budget.
Mr. Jay: I said that it would be highly desirable if we had a capital gains tax, but not otherwise.
Mr. Green: I will come to that in a moment, but the first product of having a lower rate of profits tax on undistributed profits is to encourage that undistributed growth for the benefit on the equity shareholder which, in another sentence, the right hon. Gentleman said was all wrong. He must be a little careful about where logic leads.
I want to make a point which was not made in his speech by the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne. I feel that I might talk to him a little, because we share certain common experiences. We are both those terrible fellows, chairmen, who are to be such beneficiaries of the reduction in Surtax. Perhaps that makes a bond between us. We also represent Lancashire constitutencies, and both, in common parlance, have marginal seats. We are both practising the difficult art of textile manufacture. I have his permission to reveal something which he told me in private, and which I want to use as my lead to my main theme.
I have seen for myself the hon. Member's very progressive woollen textile
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mill. He has done me the honour of showing me round it on three occasions. It is very impressive. I have his permission to say that he has told me—and I share his experience—that this is the first year in which it will be difficult, if not impossible, for him to absorb increased labour costs by increased capital efficiency.
The reason for this is not a percentage wage increase on the basic wage rates, but a shortening of hours, which has had an even greater effect than such a wage increase would have had. This is a most serious point. He put it to me privately, and I am grateful to him for giving me permission to make it public. I consider it to be the main defence of the Budget, and I hope to show the Committee why.
Each one of us, on whichever side of the Committee we sit, is, in a sense, his own Chancellor. In that sense, each of us will always be able to think of a better way of doing a particular thing than the way in which the Chancellor may choose to do it. In that sense I would have dealt with Surtax in a different way. In that sense, no doubt I would have done other things in a different way because in this respect each of us, quite properly, is his own Chancellor. That is why I chose the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne as a sort of lead in for me.
I think that the Budget is good because its central point is the establishment and the securing of a really large surplus. I agree with the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne. There is every indication that a serious inflationary situation is on the point of developing. Because I believe that to be true, and having done a sort of strip-tease of quips, or polemics, or whatever it is of speeches made by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen, I believe that they hold essentially much the same view. That being the case, there was a duty on my right hon. and learned Friend to secure a large above-the-line surplus this year, and I will say a little more about that presently.
Mr. Mitchison: But not, at the moment, to reduce Surtax.
Mr. Green: I understand the hon. and learned Gentleman's attempt to draw me off the central point, but I will not be drawn away from it.

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For what it is worth, I have done researches into the past Budget deficits and the net capital needs for the nationalised industries and the Post Office. My figures work out this way. Over the last nine years there has been a cumulative overall deficit on successive Budgets of about £2,130 million. The net capital requirements of the nationalised industries and the Post Office which must be added to that deficit appear to be £1,101 million, making total capital requirements to be found of £3,231 million over a period of nine years.
Those needs seem to have been met from extra-budgetary funds such as National Insurance, the iron and steel realisation account, departmental balances, and so on, of about £996 million, and external transactions through the Exchequer Equalisation Account of about £254 million. Total net borrowings from the public, that is National Savings and various Treasury issues, amount to about £1,132 million, leaving what one might call the residuary element—I believe that that is the fashionable phrase—of unsecured additional notes issued of about £849 million over this period.
Over a period of nine years an increase in unsecured pound notes of £849 million is less than £100 million a year. It is not a great deal in each year, but, accumulating year by year over nine years suggests a serious cumulative factor.
I assure right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite that I am not very doctrinaire about the point to which I am now coming. To me this £100 million or so over and above what the Government secure by savings or revenue, but still spend, would not be too serious if we were not, throughout the whole period, having full employment, carrying heavy defence liabilities, giving genuine aid on a massive scale to under-developed countries, and if we were not—whatever the to-and-fro across the Floor of the House—developing our general social services.
But because those four heavy and very honourable burdens have been carried through the same period of nine years for which my right hon. Friends have been in power, this relatively small, unsecured £100 million annually addi-
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tional to the total purchasing power of the country, with no real resources behind it, has been overloading at the margin, and that has mattered a great deal. I suggest that that is the main reason why it has been impossible to plan for a smooth growth of the economy during this period.
If my argument is acceptable I have given a very good reason why the central theme of my right hon. and learned Friend's Budget shoud be applauded today. He has secured a sufficient surplus above the line to make it absolutely sure that his overall deficit of £67 million or £69 million will be met by net increases in unforced, true national savings. This is the central point of the Budget, and the other matters that go with it are less important, although they are extremely interesting and very necessary to talk about.
During the last nine or ten years this country has either ben overspending or has been undertaxed to the tune of about £100 million in each year. I take the view—and here I will no doubt enter into legitimate controversy with the right hon. Member for Battersea, North—that it would be better to reduce spending by £100 million than to increase taxes by £100 million. Perhaps we can argue that point at some other time. The margin has been quite small for all these years', but it has accumulated each year and now a very large Budget surplus has become necessary. I am delighted that my right hon. and learned Friend has budgeted for it.
I should like more time to consider the payroll tax in the form presented to us. As a regulator of the economy over the years I can see much virtue in such a tax—a good deal stiffer than this one but carrying with it a substantial remission of other taxes on industry and commerce. Such a policy, persisted in over a period of years, would be an economic regulator in terms of making our industry and commerce a good deal more efficient, and also of increasing the determination of employers to produce a generation of more highly skilled workers. One of the things which is occasionally forgotten in this age not only of space travel but automation is that the more expensive and complicated a machine is the more important, and not the less important, becomes the worker with that machine.

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This is something that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee appreciate, but we have a tendency to encourage a wholly wrong and unnecessary fear that workers in industry are in danger of being demoted or displaced by automation and expensive machines, and, therefore, of becoming of less importance. This is far from being true. The more costly, the more complicated, the more productive the machine, the more important are the men who work it. It is essential that we devise and stick to policies to increase this combination of skill and conscience which is the absolute heart of the British economy, or it should be, and the absolute prerequisite of this growth in the economy that so many people ask for and so few study how to achieve.
If we are to have a payroll tax, I would personally, suggest that it should be regarded as a true economic regulator rather than as a revenue raiser. The other suggested regulator seems to me to be somewhat more fitted for its purpose of day to day, or month to month, or quarter to quarter regulation than the payroll tax itself. I should, personally, be sorry if the new idea, which I welcome very much, of the payroll tax was, in fact, not used to develop this truly tractive power within the economy which, I believe, it could develop instead of being used as a short term ad hoc measure.
Finally, I welcome my right hon. and learned Friend's determination to make our economy much more competitive, if I have understood him aright. I hope that the ultimate message which will go out from this Committee, however much one quarrels about the details, is that the Chancellor will have the undivided support of the nation in protecting sterling, whatever measures he may have to take to do it.
My right hon. and learned Friend is not a monster any more than right hon. Gentlemen opposite are pseudo-monsters—I hope that they will not deny it—and I am perfectly certain that in their heart of hearts, at the end of the day, they are just as determined as he is to make the defence of sterling, a great reserve currency, priority No. 1. It is very important, not merely in this country but right across the world, that they
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are just as determined in fact, however they may cloak this in their political arguments, as my right hon. and learned Friend to make the defence of sterling priority No. 1. If we are to continue, whichever side is in opposition, to make this country a secure base on which later to secure further growth in the economy, I have no doubt that our first duty is to protect and restore, indeed, to nourish, the strength of the £ sterling, and I welcome my right hon. and learned Friend's approach in those terms primarily.
I am prepared to give full credit to the members of the Opposition Front Bench for putting that priority first if they happened to be sitting where my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor now sits. I am sure that that is the case with them and I hope that they will find it in their hearts to say so clearly and unequivocally before we all go chasing our tails again in political polemics with which the British public is now heartily bored.
Mr. J. E. B. Hill (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury): I beg to move, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. Willis: On a point of order. I did not hear what the Motion was, Sir Gordon.
The Chairman: The Question is, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
Question put and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That, in pursuance of Standing Order No. 95A (Statutory Instruments, &c. (procedure)) which provides that the House may in certain cases order otherwise than is provided in that Standing Order, in the cases of the Welfare Foods (Great Britain) Amendment Order, 1961 (S.I., 1961, No. 352) and the Welfare Foods (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Order, 1961 (S.I., 1961, No. 367), the said Standing Order shall have effect, at this day's sitting, as if a reference to half-past Twelve o'clock were substituted for a reference to half-past Eleven o'clock in paragraphs (1) and (2) of the Order.—[Mr. Selwyn Lloyd.]

WELFARE FOODS
10.1 p.m.
Mr. Kenneth Robinson: I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Welfare Foods (Great Britain) Amendment Order, 1961 (S.I. 1961, No. 352), dated 27th February, 1961, a copy of which was laid before this House on 2nd March, be annulled.
I think it might be for the convenience of the House, Mr. Speaker, if we could also discuss the second Prayer
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Welfare Foods (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Order, 1961 (S.I., 1961, No. 367), dated 2nd March, 1961, a copy of which was laid before this House on 3rd March, be annulled.
The two Prayers cover the same subject. The second one deals with Northern Ireland, and it might give an opportunity for those hon. Members opposite who represent Northern Ireland constituencies to let the House into their confidence.
Mr. Speaker: If that is convenient to the House, they can be discussed together. If, however, they are taken to a Division, they will have to be put separately.
Mr. Robinson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We are discussing the abolition of the subsidy on welfare foods for mothers and babies just a couple of days after the announcement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of Surtax concessions which put £1,775 a year into the pockets of those happy ones in what might be called the Dr. Beeching income bracket. This coincidence has one advantage. It shows up with stark clarity for all to see, or for those who care to look, the social and economic priorities of the Government.
This mean and miserable Order entirely removes the element of subsidy from three welfare foods which in future will be available only at economic cost. The concentrated orange juice which used to cost 5d. per bottle will now cost 1s. 6d. per bottle, an increase of approximately 250 per cent. Cod liver oil, which used to be free, will in future cost
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1s. per bottle, and vitamin A and D tablets, which also used to be free, will in future cost 6d. per packet.
As the Minister of Health has reminded us, the welfare food scheme was introduced during the Second World War. As the right hon. Gentleman said, it was originally intended as a wartime expedient. The Minister talked about siege conditions. It was intended to supplement the inevitable deficiencies in the wartime diet. The scheme was, however, continued after the war by the Labour Government as a deliberate act of policy, because it had already shown its value in the manifest improvement in our children's health.
The scheme has never been particularly expensive. Indeed, its abolition will result in a saving to the Government of only £1½ million in a full year. Despite this, the Government and their predecessors have been steadily whittling away at the scheme for a long time. Their record makes dismal reading. They made a change in the arrangements for distribution. When the Ministry of Food offices were closed and the new arrangements made it more difficult for mothers to collect their tokens and welfare foods, there was not unnaturally a sharp drop in the uptake of welfare foods. Nothing was done by the Government to counteract this. They were entirely complacent about it because, as the proportion of those entitled to take those foods fell, the Government saved money.
In 1956, the Government brought in an Order which cut out the supply of orange juice for children between two and five years old. The following year they increased the price of National dried milk, which also comes under the welfare scheme, by about 60 per cent., and now the scheme—apart from milk—has been brought to an end. I say it has been brought to an end because the subsidy is the basic element in this scheme, and the subsidy is totally eliminated under this Order against which we are praying tonight.
The Minister has assured us in past debates that despite these increased Health Service charges—and no doubt the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health will tell us again tonight—arrangements have been made with the National Assistance Board

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which will take care of those who cannot afford an economic price for these vitamin supplements. I do not want to weary the House by reiterating once again the arguments which I and many of my hon. Friends have put forward as to why the National Assistance Board is a totally unsuitable system for mitigating hardship—hardship which arises out of these Health Service charges generally.
No doubt the Parliamentary Secretary will say that the number of mothers taking welfare foods has been, and still is, steadily increasing. I understand, however, that well under 50 per cent. of those who are entitled to welfare foods are, in fact, taking them. Nevertheless, there are still 22 million bottles of orange juice being distributed annually, 2¼ million bottles of cod liver oil, and 2¼ million packets of vitamin tablets.
It must be remembered that the scheme is not being fully utilised, and I should have thought that that would have been deplored. After all, who are the mothers not taking up their allocation? They are not the poor mothers, because under existing prices, before this Order comes into operation, almost anyone can afford to take welfare foods. The mothers not taking them include the more feckless and ignorant type of mother, the woman whose children need these vitamin supplements the most. They are the mothers who give their children unsuitable foods, who feed them on carbohydrates, canned goods, and who give their children a diet almost certainly deficient in vitamins.
This is the sort of situation which should have stirred the Minister to action—not the kind of action envisaged in this Order—but the action of publicising the scheme and of using the organs of propaganda at the command of the Government to persuade these mothers to take advantage of the scheme and to ram home to them the importance of these items which are to the benefit of their children's health. But not this Minister. No; that would put the bill up. This Minister has used this low take-up as one of his arguments for getting rid of the scheme altogether. We are now left with the welfare milk as the only subsidised welfare food. Similar arguments
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could be adduced for jettisoning the welfare milk scheme, too. Is this the Minister's intention? Is this what the Government will do next? If so, we should like to know how soon.
What other excuses have we had for the elimination of this subsidy? The Minister has told us in other connections that people are now so well off Chat they can afford to pay the full price. Whether they can or not, my guess is that very few of them will. I should like to quote what the largest local health authority has said about the Minister's proposal. This is an extract from the report of the Public Health Committee of the London County Council, which appeared on its agenda on 14th March:
"We are greatly concerned about the possible effect of these changes on the personal health services for which we are responsible. The rise in the cost of welfare foods will make preventive medicine more expensive for the individual and will tend to diminish in the minds of the public the importance of preventing ill health."
This is a very important aspect. One undoubted effect of the Government's decision will be that it will promote a widespread assumption that these welfare foods, these vitamin supplements, are either unnecessary or ineffective, or both. Because the Government have abandoned the scheme, people, even if they can afford to buy them, will be less inclined to do so. They will say "Otherwise, why have the Government chucked up the scheme?"
Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will give us the Government's views. Let her tell us what the Minister thinks. Does he believe that these welfare foods make a negligible contribution or no contribution at all to children's health, or does he agree that they have made a major contribution in the past? If he thinks they have made no contribution, then we can ask why the scheme has been continued during the last ten years. On the other hand, if he believes that they have made a contribution, how can he possibly justify abandoning the scheme now?
Most nutrition experts believe that these welfare foods have paid handsome dividends in terms of our children's health. One has only to read what Lord Boyd-Orr has said about this. He has quoted the case of Glasgow. In Glasgow the average 14-year-old girl is now

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between two and three inches taller and more than a stone heavier than the average 14-year-old girl in Glasgow before the war. That is a dramatic improvement. Who could deny that our children are far healthier today than they were before the war or that they are far healthier than the children in most other countries—far healthier, for example, than American children? Is this improvement worth risking? Is it worth risking the reversal of this trend, even if the risk is a minimal one, for the sake of £1½ million a year?
What are the actual medical purposes of these vitamin supplements? Orange juice combats scurvy, among other things. In 1957 the Committee on welfare foods, under Lord Cohen's chairmanship, which the Government set up, reported that scurvy still existed in this country, particularly among babies around one year old, and for that reason it recommended quite firmly the continuance of this scheme for distributing orange juice for babies under two years old. Cod liver oil has a number of benefits, but in particular it contains vitamin D, which prevents rickets. Rickets is happily a rare disease in this country today, but in Canada, which also has a high standard of living but no welfare food scheme, some clinical rickets is quite common. Can we be sure that this sort of thing will not make its reappearance in this country? Can we be certain?
There are other benefits of cod liver oil. Apart from its general nutritional value, it is very good for the health of teeth, and there are many dentists who believe that a recent deterioration in the standard of children's teeth in this country has some connection with the reduced take-up of cod liver oil amongst mothers. Certainly it is quite remarkable that those children who were born during the war when this scheme was introduced possess most excellent teeth.
So far I have been attacking the substance of this Order. I should like to voice one or two complaints that I have about the manner of its introduction. My first complaint concerns the drafting of the Order itself. I think that even those of us who are fairly well accustomed to the tortuous verbiage of Statutory Instruments would agree that this Order is disgracefully complex. If one looks at it, apart from the backward
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glance that it makes at the Defence (General) Regulations, 1939 and the Emergency Laws (Repeal) Act, 1959, it modifies very substantially what it calls the principal Order, the principal Order being the Welfare Foods (Great Britain) Order, 1954.
One finds that that Order has already been amended five times by five successive different Statutory Instruments and the result is utter chaos and confusion. I defy any ordinary person to discover within any reasonable time what the precise effect of this Order is, even with the dubious help of the Explanatory Note at the end. The Minister has on more than one occasion professed his devotion to clarity of expression and to the virtues of straightforward, simple English. He really ought to have done better on this occasion. I am sure it would have been better to wipe the slate clean, repeal the earlier Orders altogether and start afresh.
My second complaint arises very probably out of the first. As the House knows, we have a Statutory Instruments Committee which, as a matter of routine, examines the form of all Statutory Instruments laid before this House. The Statutory Instruments Committee has taken the unusual course of making a special report about this Order expressing a view that certain provisions in the Order are ultra vires. The matter is very technical and I will not attempt to explain it here. I hope that if he is called to speak, my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher), who is Chairman of the Statutory Instruments Committee, might put the matter in more detail. The short point is that in the Committee's view this Order is invalid, and I must say I hope the Committee is right.
My other complaint concerns the instructions that the Minister and his right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance gave about the issue of vitamin tokens. Up to now, mothers have been able to draw their tokens and their welfare foods more or less as was convenient to them, a whole book at once. This was a great convenience. But within days of the right hon. Gentleman's announcement on 1st February, long before this Order was laid before Parliament or even made, instructions were sent out to the issuing offices not to issue

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any tokens bearing a date after 1st June. This, I think, was an incredibly mean and niggling economy, and I should like to know how much money was saved by it. Whatever it was, it would hardly compare with the irritation which it must have caused.
I would only say, in conclusion, that this was a first-rate scheme before the Tory mice began to get at it. I think very few people would deny that in providing these welfare foods free or at a very nominal cost successive Governments have in the past helped substantially towards promoting the health of our children. If it be true, it is unforgivable for the Minister to strangle this scheme now, but this is all of a pattern with the other increases in Health Service charges and contributions—the right hon. Gentleman's combined operation on 1st February.
It is not only a question of the saving of money, although £65 million a year, of course, must be a very attractive prospect, especially to a former Financial Secretary to the Treasury. More than this, these decisions reflect the ideology of the party opposite and of the right hon. Gentleman in particular. They just do not believe in subsidies to consumers, whatever the social purposes of those subsidies. They do not mind subsidies to the farmer or perhaps to Gurnard White Star, but not consumer subsidies. They believe that if someone can just about afford something they should be required to pay for it and, if not, they can try the National Assistance Board, and that if mothers happen to neglect their children's health it is their own affair and has nothing to do with the Minister. I hope the Minister is proud of having by his combined operation assisted the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make his £85 million Surtax hand-out. We do not think that this is so much a question of robbing Peter to pay Paul as of robbing the babies to pay the Beechings.
10.23 p.m.
Mrs. Eirene White: I wish most strongly to support the plea put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson). Of all the economies in the wrong direction of which this Government have been guilty of making, I re-
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gard this as the most unworthy and meanest of all.
My hon. Friend has pointed out that although it is perfectly true that the number of mothers who have been drawing the welfare foods over the past few years has diminished, nevertheless the number who still do so is very substantial indeed and far from being reduced ought to be increased. The figures read out by my hon. Friend are very impressive. I realise, as do other hon. Members from their experiences in their constituencies and elsewhere, that the numbers have somewhat declined, but when one finds that more than 22 million bottles of orange juice are consumed it will be seen that this scheme cannot be brushed aside as of no significance. Translated into terms of health and well-being, it is a very considerable contribution. That figure is for 1959. There was a fairly recent Parliamentary Question, to which the hon. Lady the Parliamentary Secretary replied, which showed that in the first part of last year, up to the end of September, which is the latest period for which figures are available, it was running at a higher rate still. Therefore, there has not been a recent decline in the uptake of orange juice, in particular.
I should like to find out just how much research the Ministry has done before bringing in this Order. What information have the Government got? What can be laid before us on the medical and nutritional side of this matter? Do they suggest that vitamins do not matter? We all know that there are phases in medical opinion—doctors agree hardly more than lawyers or economists—but I have not yet heard that people now say that vitamins do not matter at all.
I have always understood that vitamins are of great importance to nursing and expectant mothers as well as to small children. They are important for general health, and they are important for certain specific ailments. They are particularly important, so we are told, as my hon. Friend rightly emphasised, for the development of teeth and for the preservation of the teeth of the expectant and nursing mother. Anyone having any experience whatever in this matter will know that one weakness constantly found in nursing mothers is dental decay. What is the connection between orange juice and caries?

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What calculation has our calculating Minister made on this important issue? How much will he lose on dentists that he will save on orange juice, cod liver oil or cod liver oil substitute? What is the correlation? The right hon. Gentleman has an ingenious mind. Presumably, he has worked it all out. Constantly in the House we hear complaints about the teeth of young children at school. We all know that the school dental service is in an abysmally poor state. The number of school children not receiving dental attention is scandalously large. These things being so, we are entitled to ask the Minister to answer our questions. I am sorry if I sound angry, but I feel furiously indignant about what is being done.
What thought has the Minister given to the connection between children's teeth and what he is doing in this Order? What calculations has he made? What research has he undertaken? If he has not done any, what business has he to come to the House with such an Order? We rarely lose our tempers in the House of Commons, but, as I say, I am thoroughly indignant. As my hon. Friend said, quite rightly, far from doing something which is liable at any rate to diminish the use of these vitamin supplements we ought to be going all out in a campaign to ensure that every mother and every child in the country uses them.
I understand that the Ministry calculates that there will be no diminution, or no further diminution. It has not been campaigning to increase the uptake, as it calls it in its rather inelegant language, and I gather from statements in the Press that it calculates that there will be no diminution. On what basis is that calculation made? It would be interesting to know. Apparently, it is supposed that someone now paying 5d. will be quite prepared to pay 1s. 6d. I can only say that I shall be surprised if there is not a diminution when, of course, there ought to be an increase.
Let us suppose that there is a diminution. What is to happen? Article 4 of the Order, in paragraph 3 (2, b) of the substituted provision, refers to the Minister charging sufficient to cover the approximate costs
"incurred by him in acquiring, storing, treating and distributing the food".
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What happens if there is a diminution in the consumption of orange juice, for example, and that which is stored deteriorates? A few years ago, we had one scandal about orange juice. Presumably, if the Minister finds that the orange juice is not consumed and his stocks deteriorate, he will not distribute that which is below standard. We can hardly expect otherwise. Will he cover the costs of the orange juice he has to throw away in the price charged to the mothers? We are entitled to know whether the part of the Order which speaks of acquiring, storing, treating and distributing the food covers possible loss through deterioration, and, if it does not, whether the Exchequer will generously cover the expense. I think myself that this matter of possible deterioration is quite an important point. After all, vitamins cannot be stored indefinitely.
One of the other dangers which I think is very likely to ensue from this action and the general inactivity of the Government in this matter is that we shall have parents getting orange preparations which have little or no vitamin content at all. Again, we had some time past in the House discussions on the various kinds of orange drink or so-called orange drink which have negligible or almost negligible vitamin content but which mothers may buy rather than pay 1s. 6d. for a bottle of orange juice. A mother may say, "I will buy little Johnnie a bottle of orange drink"—brought round by the milkman or in one of the tinkle-bell vans, and believe she is doing just as well for her child as paying 1s. 6d. for the welfare food.
This is a very distinct danger, because, as my hon. Friend has so rightly said, the very people we are most concerned about are the ignorant and feckless people whose children are likely not to be very intelligently cared for. After all, the mothers who are represented by those 22 million bottles are on the whole mothers who do take some care and pay some attention. Therefore, it is very likely indeed that some of them, when brought up against this price increase of quite considerable proportions, may take what they consider a reasonable substitute—perhaps not quite so good, but they will not know all the ins and outs of the matter nutritionally. I think this is a serious possibility.

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I should like to know what the Minister is going to do by way of further health education in this matter, because I think he is laying himself open to the charge of very seriously neglecting child health in this country if he does not do something about that—and that, incidentally, if he does it properly will probably cost him quite a lot and all that he will save by this proposal.
What consultation has there been with the Colonial Office about this? Orange juice, after all, is a citrus product. We all know the difficulty we have had over the economy of the Caribbean, the West Indies, where citrus fruits are one of the main products. Are we to pay out of one pocket for what we are saving in the other?
We have complaints from hon. Members opposite about the immigration from the West Indies into this country when we know that one of the main reasons for that is economic. I do not object to that immigration personally, but, on the other hand, I sympathise with them in having to leave their own homes, very much warmer homes than the ones they come to here as a rule. They come because of economic difficulty in their own countries.
The purchase by this country over the years of citrus products from the West Indies has been an important contribution to the well-being of those countries. If the Minister is right and there will be no diminution of consumption of orange juice, one cannot complain, but if, as many of us believe, there is likely to be a serious diminution, if other steps are not taken, then this is something we are entitled to ask about. By putting up the price and reducing consumption, are we not thereby striking a blow at the economic prosperity of the West Indies for which we still have some responsibility? I repeat, and I should like to know specifically, has this or has this not been discussed with the Colonial Secretary? I think the House is entitled to be told.
This Order covers the orange juice, cod liver oil and the tablets, and if the consumption of the cod liver oil is somewhat diminished, that of the tablets is somewhat increased. As someone who detests cod liver oil, I sympathise with anyone who prefers the tablets. But it does not say anything about milk.
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There was a leak in the Press some couple of months back to the effect that the Minister was considering milk—we would be surprised if he was not—but that he had found that the Minister of Agriculture was too much for him—because citrus fruits, of course, are produced in other countries, milk is produced here. Milk involves votes, citrus fruit does not. Therefore, we do not do anything as yet about milk because the farmers' lobby is stronger than the mothers' lobby.
Mr. William Yates: Nonsense.
Mrs. White: Farmers get the subsidy and mothers have had the subsidy taken away.
Mr. Yates: What about the farmer's wife?
Mrs. White: She enjoys what the farmer gets as a rule. Farmers get the subsidy and milk is likely to be safeguarded not out of regard for the mothers and children but the farmers. Whether there has been a leak or not, at any rate we have good grounds for thinking it has been considered, although it has been decided not to go ahead with it. That instructive organ Crossbow, which has been causing so much trouble to the Leader of the House recently, has also contained suggestions from the intellectual left wing of the Conservative Party, to which the Minister once belonged, that a charge of 3d. could be made, presumably per half-pint, for school milk.
Lord Balniel: Nothing like it.
Mrs. White: And suggestions for doubling the price of school meals. The signature of the Minister of Agriculture is attached to the Order and milk is mentioned in it several times, so presumably we are perfectly in order to discuss milk. Therefore, on the principle of the matter, it seems clear that the Government would like to scrap the lot but, because of the difficulty over farmers, they have had to stay their hand on milk.
Lord Balniel: On a point of order. May we have your guidance, Mr. Speaker, on whether we can discuss agricultural subsidies and liquid milk on this Order?
Mr. Speaker: I was waiting to see how the hon. Lady was tying it up to the subject matter. I confess that I have not followed her so far. Dried milk can be discussed, but the fact that the name of the Minister of Agriculture appears on the Order does not mean that hon. Members are entitled to discuss in this debate every matter for which he is responsible.
Mr. K. Robinson: Further to that point of order. I hope that you will reconsider your Ruling about liquid milk, Mr. Speaker. If you study the Report of the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments, you will find that the point on which the Committee held the Order to be invalid relates to liquid milk and that milk is referred to in more than one place in the Order. I submit with respect, therefore, that discussion of liquid milk should be in order.
Mr. Speaker: I dare say that the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) will enlighten me as she goes along. I refrain from ruling until I know something about the matter.
Mrs. White: The definition of welfare food in the Order says that "'welfare foods' means milk…."[HON. MEMBERS: "Dried milk."] It goes on to mention dried milk and so on. I think, therefore, with the utmost respect, that we should be allowed to discuss it.
Mr. Speaker: Milk means liquid milk and I agree with the hon. Lady.
Mrs. White: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I was coming to the end of my argument but not of my indignation on this matter. I do not intend to pursue the general question of the nutrition of school children. We are concerned primarily with the mothers and young babies, the children up to two years of age. I hope that every hon. Member, of whichever sex, will recognise that the preservation of the health of mothers is something for which we should take full responsibility. Is it worth the money saved for the Government to take this action? Our whole attitude to this matter should be directed not towards doing something which will almost certainly diminish the use of these very valuable supplements, but towards a crusade, led by the Minister, for the use of a far higher quantity of them.
10.40 p.m.
Dr. Donald Johnson: The debate so far reminds me of my last election campaign, which I think I won simply by saying that the Labour Party was an out-of-date party living in the past with its old-fashioned ideas. I merely mention, as an extenuating circumstance, that it is not alone in that. It is the tendency among sociologists to fight battles, like the generals, in terms of a previous generation. That is largely responsible for the well-meaning nonsense we have heard tonight and on other occasions about this matter.
I cannot do better than to read what the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) said in the introductory debate to this series of discussions on the National Health Service. I am sorry that he is not following the thing right through—he is not here at present—because of the new expertise he is acquiring in health matters. He said:
"If he wants to avoid waste, a sensible way is to have some preventive medicine so that people do not get rickets and so that kids do not grow up spindly and so that they grow up strong and healthy. Now, we are taking these things out of their reach."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th February, 1961; Vol. 510, c. 422.]
It was at that stage that I challenged him to debate with me in Carlisle on this subject, and I am looking forward to that meeting. We read similar statements in the Press. There was a letter in the Evening News which I shall also read in extenuating circumstances of the speeches we have heard tonight. It says:
"As a 21-year-old mother of a baby of five months, and expecting another, may I say how disgusted and angered I am at the increased Health Service charges.
Many mothers will refuse to pay for orange juice, cod liver oil and vitamin tablets, and the result will be an alarming rise in malnutrition and deformities."
No doubt many people do think that as a result of social propaganda and out-of-date social thinking. I hope that as a result of what I want to say from personal experience I can at least disabuse some of them of their more extreme ideas and statements. Of course, these welfare and supplementary foods were necessary in the days of 50 years ago, when we had an under-nourished slum population on low wages. They were necessary in wartime.
Mr. Charles Loughlin: We did not have welfare foods 50

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years ago. Will the hon. Gentleman say why he makes references to 50 years ago?
Dr. Johnson: I said that they were necessary then, just as they were necessary in wartime. I did not say that we had them 50 years ago.
Dr. Barnett Stross: Would not the hon. Gentleman admit that our acknowledgment of these auxiliary food factors came into existence only when we discovered what they were needed for and what they did.? To suggest that we realised this 50 years ago is quite wrong.
Dr. Johnson: I was not saying that. I was saying that the thinking of hon. Members opposite is in the terms of 50 years ago. We are in a very different set of circumstances today.
In his introductory speech the hon. Member quoted these terrific figures about 2½ million bottles of cod liver oil, 22 million bottles of orange juice and 2¼ million bottles of vitamins. They are large figures, but I would ask, "Are these things really necessary in existing circumstances?" Today the circumstances are quite different. We are in a time of general prosperity. For many years it has been my view that they were not necessary to the extent put forward by hon. Members opposite and as suggested in the quotations that I have already made.
I do not have ideas about subjects without being ready to carry them out. I have a family of my own, and I have exposed my family to this terrible risk of not having welfare foods when they were brought up. Perhaps the hon. Member will include my wife and myself among the feckless and ignorant types of whom he has been talking. I was, however, conscious that there is a medical condition of hypervitaminosis, which is a condition of having too many vitamins rather than too few. It is also an undoubted fact that cod liver oil is not very good for a baby's digestion, any more than it is for an adult's.
These thoughts were very much in my mind and in my wife's mind, and we took this terrible risk of bringing up a family of two children without their having any bottle orange juice or cod liver oil, and without either of them yet having touched a vitamin tablet.
Mr. White: I follow the hon. Member's argument, but can he tell me what he or his wife—whoever does the marketing—spends on fruit and vegetables every week?
Dr. Johnson: Quite a lot—and the hon. Lady has made my point for me. Her speech seemed to indicate that there was no such thing as a fresh orange in the shops, but fresh oranges are within the reach of the average family. They are not enormously expensive. We do not need a lot of orange juice in order to supply the necessary amount of vitamins. That is basic knowledge, as professional hon. Members opposite will agree. A certain amount of vitamins is needed, and without that amount various diseases are contracted. All I am saying is that that small amount is contained in the normal diet.
I shall quote a statistic from my family concerning my son. who is now aged 13, at which age he can be called the end result of the experiment. His height and weight are 65½ in. and 119 lb., whereas the average height and weight of the boys at his school, whose figures are slightly larger than the average for the City of Sheffield, which are the only other statistics I could get, are 62 in. and 102½ lb. He thus appears to be 3½ in. taller and no less than 16½ lb. heavier than the average of the boys at his school.
Mr. K. Robinson: I am sure that the House is finding the hon. Member's speech entertaining, but the welfare food scheme might be unnecessary if the entire population had the hon. Member's income and medical knowledge. Unfortunately, perhaps, they have not.
Dr. Johnson: No medical knowledge is needed to buy oranges in the shops or even extra fruit. I am glad to say that my children have been relieved of the necessity of having my medical knowledge applied to them, and perhaps that is just as well. The medical knowledge such as I have is being imparted tonight for the nation to benefit. They are lucky people. That is to say, they should buy oranges in the shops, these are quite sufficient and one does not need the enormous income of a Member of Parliament to be able to buy them. That is a complete supplement to the normal diet from babyhood. I hope

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that if what I have said has done nothing else I have dispelled some of the awful nightmares and terrors that have been suspended over us in this House tonight at the withdrawal of these welfare foods.
There are still people below a certain level of income who are provided for by special arrangements and who doubtless need these supplements, but by and large the average families earn incomes with which they can afford to feed their children properly. They should be able to take upon themselves the simple responsibility of feeding their families properly, and in that case they do not need this kind of social welfare.
10.50 p.m.
Mr. E. C. Redhead: I am sure that the hon. Member for Carlisle (Dr. Johnson) will forgive me if I do not follow the course of his argument. In the first place, I am not competent to argue upon medical grounds, and I realise that I am not an equal opponent to the hon. Member in that respect. I would only say in passing that his opinion is not one that I find echoed by the medical officers for the borough in which my constituency lies and who have to deal, not with people of the standard of living which the hon. Member obviously enjoys, but with people of much humbler means.
Although I subscribe to all that has so far been said by my hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson) and my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) in condemnation of these Orders, I want to refer to one aspect which was touched upon by my hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras, North as a matter of specific complaint. I anticipate that the Parliamentary Secretary, when she replies, will echo the arguments with which we have become all too familiar from her right hon. Friend the Minister in justification of these Orders. I have no doubt that the hon. Lady will seek indignantly to repudiate the suggestion that there is anything mean or paltry behind these Measures.
I want, however, to refer to a matter which I believe reveals and typifies the whole attitude and approach of the right hon. Gentleman to these matters and, indeed, to the whole range of the Health Service charges for which he has been responsible of recent date. I refer to
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the manner in which he sought to anticipate these Orders in their operation before they were even made and before they were laid before the House. I refer to his over-eager desire to press these proposals forward and not miss a chance of extracting even the last 1s. from an expectant mother, by detailed instructions which he rushed out on the very day when he first announced his intentions in this regard in the House—namely 1st February. It was an effort to ensure that not one expectant mother should get away with even a paltry 1s. 1d. on a bottle of orange juice or 6d. on a packet of vitamin tablets.
I can understand the right hon. Gentleman's later reluctance to admit this. I had hoped that his reluctance, as it was revealed in answer to a subsequent Question, indicated that he had, on reflection, some degree of shame about this operation. His later persistence, however, has convinced me that I had better disabuse my mind of any such charitable thought.
Let me explain in detail what the Minister did in this regard, because I believe it illustrates the whole attitude of mind that he has brought to bear on this matter. Hitherto expectant mothers have been entitled to obtain orange juice for the nominal price of 5d. a bottle. It is now proposed that they shall pay the cost price of 1s. 6d. They have also been entitled to a free issue of cod liver oil or vitamin tablets. For this they are now to be charged 1s. in the one case and 6d. a packet in the other.
At the outset of her pregnancy an expectant mother has been entitled to draw from the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance, acting as agents for the Minister of Health, a token book—No. FW 40, I think—entitling her to exercise this entitlement on production of the appropriate tokens at the antenatal clinic or other distribution centre run by the local health authority from which she has been accustomed to obtain these items. The number of tokens in each book was sufficient to ensure entitlement during the whole period of pregnancy on the following scale: for orange juice, at the rate of—I emphasise "at the rate of"—one bottle for every nine days, and for cod liver oil and vitamin tablets, at the rate of one bottle per month for the former

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or one packet every six weeks for the latter.
These tokens were not dated. There was, therefore, no obligation or requirement that they should be used within a specific week or month. It followed, therefore, that it was always possible, and, indeed, in practice it was acknowledged to be permissible, for an expectant mother to use her tokens at any time in any quantity she might desire. That was a reasonable and useful facility. It enabled the expectant mother to draw upon her allowance up to the maximum permitted within that scale at any time when she anticipated going away for a holiday or respite or was for any other reason unable to collect her supply regularly.
With the announcement by the Minister that prices were to be increased, or newly imposed in respect of some of these items, as from 1st June, I acknowledge that it was possible that some already possessed of such token books before the announcement might—quite naturally, I think; after all, there are some wonderful precedents for this in the area of taxation—seek to exercise their entitlement up to the full allocation permitted by the tokens in their books, or to the extent that they could, before the new charges became operative. But the Minister, with the foresight and astuteness to recognise the possible guile of the expectant mother who would see these possibilities before her, was not to be thwarted in his determination to extract the utmost from his proposed new charges. First of all, he caused the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance to extract from any token books issued after 1st February sufficient tokens to ensure that what was left in the book for the expectant mother was no more than the absolute strict minimum of her entitlement at the defined rate, to which I have already referred, up to the end of May.
I put down a Question on this to the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance on 27th February. I asked him what recent instructions had been sent to his local offices concerning the issue of welfare food coupons to expectant mothers. The Minister answered with
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complete candour in the following terms:
"Following the announcement by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health on 1st February, 1961. concerning welfare foods, local offices of my Department were instructed that vitamin token books issued in future should not contain tokens giving entitlement beyond 31st May, 1961."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1961; Vol. 635, c. 1176.]
The Minister did not acknowledge, in reply to subsequent supplementaries, that there was anything improper or even mean in this over-eager desire of his right hon. Gentleman to anticipate Orders which had not been seen by that date by this House. But at least I will acknowledge that he replied candidly and forthrightly, and it is worthy of note, in view of what I am going to say later, that he did not seek to shelter behind his right hon. Friend who nevertheless must have been the instigator of those instructions.
I then put down another Question to the Minister of Health, and I asked him what recent instructions he had given to the local health authorities concerning the issue of welfare food coupons to expectant mothers and what consultations he had had on this matter with the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance. To this the right hon. Gentleman replied on 13th March. His answer is worthy of note:
"Welfare food coupons are issued on behalf of my Department through the local offices of the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance and not by the local health authorities."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th March, 1961; Vol. 636. c. 960.]
It was to be inferred from that reply—and I suggest that it was intended to be inferred—that the Minister of Health had no responsibility for the issue of any instructions on this matter and had, in fact, not issued such instructions. I can only describe this reply as thoroughly evasive, foolishly evasive, to use no more severe terms about it. At the time when I put that Question to the Minister on 13th March I had in my possession, as I have now, a copy of the instructions which the Minister of Health issued to local health authorities on the very day that he made his first announcement in this House on 1st February.
Contrary to the inference to be drawn from his reply to me on 13th March, he

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issued these long, complicated and detailed instructions on 1st February to local health authorities telling them what the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance was doing about the issue of new books, and going on to instruct the health authorities in respect of those expectant mothers who were already in possession of token books that they were henceforth to be restricted in the issue of orange juice, cod liver oil and vitamin tablets to not more than 14 bottles of orange juice before the end of May and not more than 6 bottles of cod liver oil or 3 packets of vitamin tablets in the same period. There followed two pages of regulations and suggestions as to how these provisions were to be carried out, very detailed, exceedingly well thought out, the result, obviously, of the occupation of some civil servant for some time before the House became aware of the fact that the Minister had intentions of this kind.
In all seriousness, I ask: were all these complicated, cumbersome instructions necessary, or, indeed, justified? Do they not typify the utmost spirit of meanness which, I suggest, has been the hallmark of this Minister in all the proposals he has brought forward in this connection? After all, the most that the Minister could possibly have saved in respect of any one of the very few expectant mothers who would have been possessed of a full token book at the time the instructions were issued I calculate at about 23s. Was it really necessary, and does that saving compare with what must have been the considerable administrative cost in concocting these instructions, issuing them to all the local health authorities throughout the country which, in their turn, had to send them down to the distribution centres where worried clerks and receptionists would have to busy themselves trying to work out all the complications? I know for a fact that they were busy trying to work out just what the Minister meant and intended. Surely, the cost of the operation completely outweighed anything that the Minister might have saved by this method of paltry economy.
In any case, I will tell the right hon. Gentleman—if he does not already know—that the instructions could not possibly be fully effective. In the first instance, it took weeks for the said instructions to trickle down from the local health authorities to the distribution centres. I
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know of a place where it was five weeks before those who were responsible for carrying them out heard that the instructions existed at all. They heard that the Ministry of Pensions was doing something merely by reason of the presentation by an expectant mother of a book which had already been truncated of several of its coupons. That was the first information they had, by which time, of course, many of the expectant mothers would have had the opportunity, if they were imbued with such a desire, to forestall the Minister in his proposed increased charges in that respect.
Secondly, there could be no adequate verification whatever that the instructions had been carried out, for henceforth no books of tokens are to be issued and the old books, upon which the Minister gave the most meticulous instructions and which were to be marked with the date of issue to make sure that his instructions were not exceeded, will not be returnable to the authorities. No trace can be found of them and no check or verification will be possible. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he has been too clever by half.
The whole operation typifies the Minister's attitude and approach, which, I venture to suggest, in confirmation of what my hon. Friends have already said, is one of meanness and paltry economy, at the expense—of all people—of expectant mothers. It is contrary to the whole spirit and outlook which originally animated the institution of the National Health Service, and I hope that hon. Members, taking note of what I have told the House as an illustration of the Minister's attitude of mind, will go into the Lobbies tonight to demonstrate their utter disgust by voting for the Prayers for the annulment of these miserable Orders.
11.6 p.m.
Mr. Kenneth Lewis: I shall not follow the hon. Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Redhead) on his paperchase. I think we heard much more about the instructions than we did about the contents of the Order, but I will say that the fact that he discovered it was going to take some weeks for the instructions to percolate downwards seemed to me to justify the Minister in making an early start.

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Listening to hon. Members opposite on this Order, one would imagine that what my right hon. Friend is doing is to destroy the whole of the welfare food services. Of course he is doing nothing of the kind. He is simply charging more for it. That is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, which we support.
I suppose it is inevitable that this Order should be related by the hon. Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson) to the concession made in the Budget on Surtax, but, of course, we would say that this justifies the Order even more, because we do not believe that it is reasonable or desirable that people who have had concessions on Surtax should also have subsidised welfare foods.
Mr. Loughlin: Classical.
Mr. W. A. Wilkins: The hon. Member will be on the Front Bench soon.
Mr. Lewis: My right hon. Friend has made full provision for all those who cannot afford to pay to have a rebate and get this service free.
Mr. E. Fernyhough: Where?
Mr. Lewis: Hon. Members will see, if they look at the speeches which have been made previously, and the allowances which are to be made through National Assistance—
Mr. Fernyhough: Exactly.
Mr. Lewis: —that full rebate can be claimed.
Dr. Stross: I am trying to follow the hon. Member. Am I wrong in assuming that his argument now is that benefits given through Surtax have been given by the Chancellor in order to make sure that those benefited will be able to pay for these welfare foods?
Mr. Lewis: Of course the hon. Member is. But the Surtax payers are only one class, and I shall come to the others in a minute. The truth is that we on this side of the House do not believe in indiscriminate subsidies.
Mr. Loughlin: Do they not?
Mr. Lewis: I think this Order must be looked at after asking the question,
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can the mass of the people in this country afford to pay the proper price? In order to answer that question it would be reasonable to look at what they at present spend their money on. [HON. MEMBERS: "All of them?"] Most of them. Those who cannot afford it are already looked after by National Assistance.
I cite from page 238, Table 284, of the Abstract of Statistics, 1960. There is a table showing national consumer expenditure related to 1954 prices. This is the table which gives consumer expenditure in real terms. I am not proposing to quote what hon. Members opposite probably expect me to—what the country spends on tobacco, whisky, or motor cars. Spending on all these has gone up considerably over the last five years. However, everybody in the country does not smoke, everybody does not have a motor car and everybody does not drink, so we will leave them, but everybody buys household goods. I take two years which seem to me reasonably appropriate because they were election years—1955 and 1959. In real terms, related to 1954, from 1955 to 1959 expenditure on household durable goods was up by £293 million among the mass of the people, not the Surtax payers. In the same period, expenditure on other household goods was up by £44 million. Hon. Members opposite may say that household goods are the sort of things on which all families spend highly. Some spend more than others. Very well. This Order in a certain way deals with nutritious food, so let us look at the figures for expenditure on general food. Expenditure on food in real terms went up by £294 million during the period of 1955–1959.
Do hon. Members opposite honestly suggest that a nation that is spending £294 million extra on food cannot afford to pay for the orange juice for the children? Are they saying that a nation that has been spending an average over those years of £67 million extra on household goods cannot afford to pay the proper price for the vitamins which people think that their children may need? I do not believe it. I do not believe the country thinks it, though hon. Members opposite may think it does.
Mr. Fernyhough: The hon. Member says he does not believe that people

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with this spending capacity should have help by way of subsidy. There are plenty of farmers running Rolls-Royce cars. Why should they have subsidies?
Mr. Lewis: I will prove to the hon. Member that many of them do not want those subsidies. The Ministry of Health Report for 1959 on the National Health Service states on page 197:
"Sales of National Dried Milk have been falling since 1950 owing to the expansion of the demand for branded baby foods."
Here is a situation where a welfare service subsidised by the State is being ignored by the people. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not all the people."] It is being ignored by a large number who are buying instead higher priced branded baby foods.
Mr. Richard Marsh: I am grateful to the hon. Member for giving way, because we should like to have his views made clear, since he may well be expressing the views of a Chancellor of the Exchequer in a Tory Government some day. Would he suggest that welfare services are applicable only in a condition of poverty in the country? We believe that it is the view of many of his colleagues that if there is any degree of affluence there is no need for welfare services, which is the logic of the poor law.
Mr. Lewis: We believe that people who can afford to pay should pay in order to make more money available for the service to be more effective for those who cannot afford to pay.
I do not believe that the people are so little independent that they want subsidies on this scale. What is being offered by the Minister now is a cost-price service. He is still providing a cheap service. If a mother goes to a chemist's for welfare foods, she has to pay not only the cost price but the profit as well. She can go to a health centre and get these things cheaper, and my right hon. Friend in making these supplies free to those who need them fulfils his social and health obligations. This Order discharges that responsibility to the full.
We have heard something tonight about the Labour Government when in office introducing a "free for all" service of welfare foods. But we have heard little said about the fact that during the war there was a charge for
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this service. Members opposite seem to think that merit only attached to the scheme when they made it free. Have they noticed the children born between 1940 and 1946 who are now in the age group of between 16 and 21? Those children were nurtured under this service when it had a charge on it, and that charge was approximately related to the one now proposed.
Have Members opposite noticed that these bonnie babies of that day have now become vigorous enough to get married earlier than ever before, pretty enough to raise an eyebrow wherever they go, and intelligent enough to be joining the Young Conservatives in very large numbers? Members opposite may believe in a "free for all," an attitude of "to each according to whether he needs it or not," but we do not. Such a policy is appropriate neither to the health nor to the independence of the nation, and so we on these benches support the Minister and this Order.
11.18 p.m.
Dr. J. Dickson Mahon: The hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. K. Lewis) could well have made that speech four, five, or even ten years ago, and it would have been just as barren of argument then as it is now. Unfortunately, he lacks one substantial argument in his favour, which we have not heard so far and which the Minister could give. In 1956–57 the Cohen Committee was asked by the Government to study this problem to see whether we were wasting money on this service. Is it the view of the hon. Member that this service is extravagant? Is that what the Government think? By withdrawing these foods, or interfering with them in such a way that their uptake will fall, will we damage the health of our people? The answer came back—and my hon. Friend quoted it at the beginning of the debate, and he has not been challenged on it so far—that there is a possible danger that children, especially those under one year old, will develop scurvy, even under present conditions, with all the affluence we boast about, because of the social position of certain parents, or their ignorance, or fecklessness, and the rest. This is not a quantitative responsibility; it is a qualitative one. This is where the hon. Member and his friends are going wrong.

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We have a responsibility even unto the meanest, and most humble and ignorant of our citizens, and if by this Order we cause some children to be afflicted by a preventable disease, the responsibility lies on the Government and hon. Members opposite who support them. [Interruption.] Yes, it does. A Member of this House, who was a medical man, like the hon. Member for Carlisle (Dr. D. Johnson), defended a similar Order in the early thirties, when he was Minister of Agriculture, or Minister of Health—I am not sure which—by saying, "We will worry about this when malnutrition becomes apparent." Are we to accept it that the argument is that we will worry about the damaging effect of this Order only when scurvy, or whatever it is, has appeared?
If this is not the argument, we would expect the Minister to say, "The position is quite clear. I have set up a committee comparable with the Cohen Committee—and as renowned as that Committee, which will command the respect of all medical men; even the hon. Member for Carlisle will have to bow before its authoritarian views. This committee has discussed this once again, and the medical evidence is so clear that we can take this step tonight in the knowledge that no harm will come to any child".
Dr. Johnson: The hon. Member should back up his argument by some facts. How many cases of scurvy can he bring before the House as evidence of what he is saying?
Dr. Mabon: If the hon. Member for Carlisle will read the Cohen Report he will get the answers he wants. As a young doctor, trained ten years ago and still in active practice, I have seen only three cases of scurvy—but to what is that a tribute? Perhaps it is a tribute to the fact that these welfare foods are available. I have seen patients who were brought up in the old days who can still show the ravages of rickets and the rest, but I have never seen a case of rickets in this country, although I have seen some abroad. I am proud that I have never seen it in this country, and I suggest that before we take a step like this we should be quite sure that the argument is entirely on our side.
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The onus of proof in this matter is on the Government. First, we had these diseases, which were preventable diseases, which are no longer with us; secondly, we have had the Government provision of welfare foods for a time sufficient for us to say that they have contributed largely to the eradication of these diseases; thirdly, we are now proposing to diminish this provision to such a degree that it will be highly marginal and possibly in effective; fourthly, we must ask whether this action will cause any illness?
I suggest that the fourth point must be answered by professional opinion and not the opinion of the Minister, or the Parliamentary Secretary, or the Secretary of State for Scotland. Medical men will read this debate with interest. They will see how this Parliament of ours, with all its intelligent Members, gathered from all the professions and trades, discusses the matter and whether it is an intelligent debate based on facts, understanding and inquiry. I feel that the Minister has not conducted any such inquiry or called for a committee to furnish a report. I defy him, and the hon. Member for Carlisle and any other medical man, to bring me medical evidence that the provision of these welfare foods is unnecessary. There is no single piece of medical evidence to that effect.
Dr. Johnson: I quoted my family. If that is not good enough for the hon. Member, I do not know what is.
Dr. Mabon: I am surprised at the hon. Member putting forward an argument like that. As he knows, to maintain any possible argument in matters like this one would have to take a series of, say, 1,000 cases spread throughout the community. Arguing in the hon. Member's manner reduces the whole thing to an absurdity.
Lord Balniel: I respect the medical knowledge which the hon. Member brings to this House and would not dream of disputing it. Equally, he has told the House of only a portion of the recommendations of the Cohen Committee. That Committee specifically recommended the abolition of subsidy for orange juice in view of the fact that it was no contribution to the reduction of scurvy for children over the age of two. I do not deny, and I do not want to mislead the House in any way, that

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that Committee did not recommend the abolition of subsidy for the smaller children, but as the hon. Member is getting so impassioned I should like him to explain why any person need be deprived of this welfare service through lack of means, since anybody who is unable to pay for these services has recourse to National Assistance.
Dr. Mabon: The noble Lord cannot have it both ways, even though he wants it both ways. If he insists that I accept the findings of the Cohen Committee, so must he. If he insists that I must, in conformity, support Government legislation which is in line with the recommendations of the Cohen Committee, so must he. This action by the Government, is not legislation which is in line with the Cohen Committee's recommendations. It will damage the very category which I have mentioned and which the noble Lord has emphasised.
Of course, it would not be people like the family of the hon. Member for Carlisle who will suffer. One would hope that no family of any hon. Member ever fall into the category of lacking vitamins. We do not want that to happen. We hope that most intelligent people, even though poor, will have the gumption to realise that a balanced diet and supplements are necessary and that they will go on paying for them, even at the full economic price. We are not dealing with a population, however, all of whom are wonderfully intelligent or rich. We are dealing with a population of whom some will suffer and, almost coinciding with them, a part of the population which, unfortunately, is not intelligent, learned or appreciative enough to realise the value of a balanced diet.
The Minister of Labour told me only on Monday that the average level of unemployment in my constituency has been 8 per cent. for the last ten years. That is almost one-tenth of the working population. I maintain that in my constituency there is an appreciable number of people, enough for me to worry about, who presently take up these vitamin supplements but who might not take them up if tonight's Order goes through. I go further and say that even in present circumstances there are people in my constituency who cannot afford these things but who
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should, nevertheless, take them. That is why the right hon. Gentleman is the Minister of Disease and not the Minister of Health. He is not thinking of preventive medicine.
If the Minister wants to make economies and to justify all his other economies with prescription charges and the rest, at least he should be willing to say, "I am spending something else in expanding preventive medicine. I have shot up the figures for these vitamin foods. I am the first Minister who has been able to turn back the trend in the taking up of vitamin foods." That, however, is not what the Minister is saying. In fact, the right hon. Gentleman is making absolutely certain that he will be the Minister who will preside over the end of this scheme. That is a great tragedy. This is done with not a piece of medical evidence to substantiate his position, with the heartlessness in administration which has been described by my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Redhead), and with absolute determination to be ruthless to the last. We now come to the last £1¼ million of the £69 million, and there is not a sign of relenting from the Treasury Bench. It is pathetic.
It is often said by hon. Members opposite that the Labour Party is old-fashioned. In the last few years, particularly this year, we have begun to see the Tories coming back to their old selves once again. It is astonishing to think that I should ever be on my feet in the House of Commons defending vitamin supplements and pleading with the Tories not to cut them. It is incredible that this should happen in the week in which we have had a tremendous taxation concession to the wealthier members of the community. Also, we have had an hon. Gentleman opposite telling us that the Governement have had to cut these subsidies because relief has been given to Surtax payers.
Mr. K. Lewis: No.
Dr. Mabon: The hon. Gentleman said that. He cannot retreat from it now.
Mr. Lewis: I certainly did not say that.
Dr. Mabon: When the hon. Gentleman looks at the OFFICIAL REPORT he will realise that he should not have been

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visiting where he has been visiting. He said that in the hearing of many of us.
Mr. Lewis: I am on record as having said previously that I support the Minister in what he says—that he has made these savings in order to be able to spend more on the Health Service. It had nothing to do with taxation.
Dr. Mabon: The hon. Gentleman should recollect his slip of the tongue, which he made several times, when he talked about Purchase Tax. He mentioned Surtax payers and used this argument. When he sees the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow he will be very surprised at what he said. Also, his constituents will be positively alarmed. They will be able to use this quotation to the full, and the hon. Gentleman deserves it, for it is a hostage to fortune of the first Order. It demonstrates the kind of thinking of hon. Gentlemen opposite who are desperate for arguments to justify themselves.
One of the arguments used was that of trying to get all people to take up these commodities at their economic price. This is asking for the best possible world. The fact is that we have people who are short of money—they may or may not be on National Assistance—and require these supplements. This Order will push down further the number of people who take advantage of these commodities. There is no medical evidence that they will not suffer as a consequence of failing to take these supplements. Therefore, it is a mistake in the field of preventive medicine for the House to accept the Government's proposals.
We have been told that we are on the brink of having fluoridisation of our water supplies. There are examples in Kilmarnock and Anglesey. Would hon. Gentlemen opposite argue that we should not have a subsidised water supply in the sense of the Minister of Health providing the fluoride to go into the water? If that is done we shall save a fortune in dentistry; there will be real savings.
That is the point here. According to the representatives of the Treasury, we are saving £1¼ million by this proposal. I suggest that we are losing a great deal as well.
11.40 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Edith Pitt): The purpose of this Order is to provide vitamin supplements at cost price. Contrary to the statement of the hon. Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson) that the scheme is being brought to an end, there is no change in the principle. The vitamin food supplements will be available to the same people as before at prices they can afford or free if they cannot.
The scheme is based on expert advice that as an insurance against under-nutrition extra vitamins should be readily available to certain groups. The Order does provide for some minor changes of detail. The residence test is abolished. Previously, as some hon. Members will know because I know they had constituency complaints, people who returned to this country from abroad had to wait four weeks before they requalified for the welfare supplements. That is being abolished, rightly so, I think, and there is immediate entitlement at cost price.
For free supplies, the quantities have been rounded slightly to fit a thirteen week period. Expectant mothers who have the free supplies will have only vitamin tablets where previously they had the choice of vitamin tablets or cod liver oil. Experience has proved that almost always they chose to have the tablets. For those who buy, no tokens or rationing will be necessary, although the quantities at present supplied based on medical advice will be recommended.
At present, orange juice is 5d. a bottle and available for children under the age of 2 and expectant mothers. It will become available for children up to the age of 5 as it used to be, although that was stopped in 1957 on the advice of the Cohen Committee, which recommended that after that age the more varied diet had enough vitamin C in it. In fact, extra vitamin C does no harm. It is a pleasant drink and it will be available now up to the age of 5.
Mrs. White: Can the hon. Lady explain why the chemists are being done out of profit in this matter? It seems a serious thing for a Conservative, because chemists could make a very good thing out of it.
Miss Pitt: It is because this orange juice is available only through my Ministry. The extension to the age of 5 will be welcomed because we have had letters at the Ministry from mothers who were anxious to purchase orange juice for those over 2 because they have a taste for it. The cost in future will be 1s. 6d. a bottle.
Dr. Stross: In view of what we heard from the hon. Member for Carlisle (Dr. D. Johnson), will the hon. Lady also make it clear that it is very difficult to have any excess of ascorbic acid, or vitamin C, and there is no harm in drinking a little more orange juice than most people do?
Miss Pitt: Perhaps I may reply by saying that my favourite drink is fresh orange.
Cod liver oil will be available for children up to 5 and expectant mothers, and the proposed price is 1s. Vitamin tablets will be available for expectant and nursing mothers at a cost of 6d. per packet.
For the history of the welfare food scheme we have to go back to the Second World War, when a scheme was started to ensure that expectant and nursing mothers and young children should not lack essential vitamins. It was to provide a supplement to meet the inevitable deficiencies. Again, to use the hon. Member's words, there was a shortage of food. We had to have just what we could get for this country in wartime, as all hon. Members will remember. The range was restricted and we did not get as much fruit and fresh vegetable as we needed. Because of the value which was placed upon a balanced diet, and particularly the need for the natural vitamin C in orange juice, these and other welfare foods were made available. It was an insurance, and, I believe, a good insurance, and in the course of it another thing happened which I believe was also good. The population became more enlightened as to the part the right intake of vitamins plays in our general health, and that has continued to grow.
Much of the improvement in the health of our younger members of the population today can be attributed to the welfare foods scheme, and I was delighted when hon. Members opposite paid tribute
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to the introduction of this scheme and the beneficial results that we saw from it in the present stature and growth of babies born in wartime, because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. K. Lewis) reminded the House, during the war when the scheme was introduced a charge was made for these supplements and was paid by the recipient. For orange juice the charge was 5d., the existing charge today, which covered the bottling and distribution. No charge was made for the juice itself. We could not do that because it came to us under Lease/Lend. That charge has been continued except for a very brief period of four months in 1941–42 when orange juice was free.
Cod liver oil was charged at cost, which was 10d., and vitamin tablets were also charged at cost, which was 10d., so they were dearer in wartime than the cost we now propose to put into effect. This continued until July, 1946, when the supplements were provided free.
The hon. Member for St. Pancras, North said that subsidy is the basic element in the scheme, and I hope I have now refreshed his memory to the point that there was no subsidy during those wartime years and that nevertheless these vitamins were purchased.
Mr. K. Robinson: The hon. Lady ought to make it clear that the orange juice was free in wartime. The only cost was the cost of bottling. If that is not an element of subsidy, I do not know what is.
Miss Pitt: The cost paid was the same then as it is today. In the altered conditions of today, the immense differences from wartime, the widely shared prosperity of the people and the increased standard of living, I believe that it is reasonable that they should pay the cost price of these supplements.
Dr. Stross: It is kind of the hon. Lady to give way. I hope she will bear in mind that in addition to providing these accessory food factors during the war and charging for them, we did protect the most vulnerable groups in two ways. First, there was national rationing, which meant that all could get their share; and then we had our priority groups for whom we cared first—mothers and children.
Miss Pitt: The hon. Gentleman has given me my lead into the point that I was about to make. It is true that we had rationing during the war. Everybody had the same foods. In some respects there were benefits. But there were limitations. Now there is a wide variety of foods of all kinds. People can and do choose, and they have the alternatives of the welfare supplements if they wish to avail themselves of them. It is true that people can afford to pay the proper price in many cases, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Stamford said—
Mr. Loughlin: Is this argument that we are in such a position at present that everyone can afford to pay the economic cost of commodities going to be applied equally to liquid milk? Do we take it that what the hon. Lady is now saying is that in a short time we shall have the same argument in relation to liquid milk?
Miss Pitt: No, there is nothing in this Order about liquid milk. No proposals are being made—
Mr. Loughlin: Why not?
Miss Pitt: It is accepted that it is still desirable that these supplements should be readily available to mothers and young children, which I hope answers some of the concern expressed by hon. Members. We feel that mothers should continue to be advised and educated in their use.
The supplements to diet help in a period of rapid growth, and the vitamin C, in particular, is in a convenient and palatable form. Also, children over 2 need vitamin D. These are available to expectant mothers also, and, again, we wish them to take advantage of the vitamins available. It is a very cheap way of securing the vitamins. I know of no other source from which these vitamins can be obtained so cheaply. If the position of the minority is safeguarded, there is no reason why the majority should not pay for this as for the rest of their nutritional requirements.
The hon. Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Redhead) devoted the whole of his speech to certain minor administrative arrangements. I found it a little difficult to understand why he should base the whole of his contribution in
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what, apparently, is a protest against this Order on a very small administrative detail of the circulars sent out. In fact, the purpose of the circulars, as he was told in answer to the Questions he put to my right hon. Friend, was to ensure that all should have their fair entitlement and that everyone should be treated alike.
The hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) asked what steps were being taken to ensure that excessive supplies do not accumulate as a result of a possible reduction in purchases after 1st June. In the first place, I do not accept that there will be any reduction. I have no reason to think that there will be. If there were, there would be no danger of supplies becoming unusable. Bottled orange juice, cod liver oil or vitamin tablets are ordered on a monthly basis, and the bulk orange juice, though ordered annually, is kept in cold storage, and I am advised that there is no risk of deterioration.
The hon. Member for Greenock (Dr. Dickson Mabon) referred to the Cohen Committee's Report. I have it here, but I shall not take time by quoting from it. The hon. Member was concerned to ensure that there would be a check in the future, and he asked that there should be outside professional reports on the working of the vitamin supplement scheme. We keep it under constant review in the Department, with the benefit of outside consultants, pediatricians and obstetricians, and we intend so to continue. I assure the hon. Member that we shall certainly keep a close watch on the situation.
Dr. Mabon: That really was not my question, though I appreciate the statement that the hon. Lady has made. My question was: what professional advice was given to the Minister in relation to this Order?
Miss Pitt: We have taken professional advice within our own Department.
That brings me to the part that the welfare foods have played in our improved maternity and child welfare care. There has been a big improvement during and since the war. Whatever figures or indices hon. Members choose to take, this will be seen to be so. All the relevant figures prove that there has

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been a steady decline in our mortality rates. In 1959, we reached new low records in every sector, in maternal mortality, infant mortality, neonatal mortality and perinatal mortality. Even the still-birth rate was down, and that has been the most stubborn of all.
We have now, I think, reached the hard core, which means that we have to have substantial selectivity, which may give a very small yield but will help in attacking the hard core which is still the residue of the problem in maternity and child welfare.
We need an intensive research campaign into the causes of still-birth and neonatal deaths, but I would not wish to withdraw anything which played a part in the beneficial results to which I have been able to refer, and the welfare foods have played and will continue to play their part. But what we must do is to continue our selectivity. The subsidy should go where it is most needed. The hon. Member for St. Pancras, North and the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East referred to the people who do not have the welfare foods, in their own words, the more ignorant or the more feckless. Those are the people whom we should encourage to make use of these supplements, and it is those whom we wish to encourage to do so.
If they are in need and cannot afford the supplements, then the National Assistance Board machinery is available. The change will not cause any extra expense to people already receiving National Assistance, who will continue to be entitled to their supplies of substantially the same quantity of these food supplements as at present. The existing arrangements for the issue of free milk tokens will continue, and arrangements will be introduced to enable orange juice and other supplements to be obtained free from distribution centres of local health authorities.
People not already receiving assistance, whether or not they are in employment, and whose resources are insufficient by National Assistance standards to provide for their needs, including these vitamin supplements, will be able to get the same concession on application to the Board. The Board's assessment will be the same as for the National Health Service charges which have already been detailed to the House several times by
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my right hon. Friend and myself and which I will not repeat tonight.
The hon. Member for St. Pancras, North said that the National Assistance Board was unsuitable for this task, but I remind him that the Board's machinery has been already used for the issue of free milk and will continue to be and was so used by his own party when hon. Members opposite were in power. I find it a little hard to understand why by this reflection he should deprecate the good job which, as both sides of the House acknowledge, the Board has done. However, I hope that I have made it clear that minorities can, we hope, be looked after in this way and encouraged to take advantage.
One other way in which we intend to press for concentration on the hard core is education to encourage mothers to take advantage of these foods. In this connection, the National Health Service leaflet on maternity care is being revised. This leaflet is sent by National Insurance offices to all expectant mothers, along with milk tokens. It is also available in maternity and child welfare clinics. It is available to general practitioners and to hospitals in their maternity and children's departments. The revised leaflet will not be sent out until June, but early next month a special one-page leaflet on the changes and the values of the food and on the National Assistance Board arrangements will be issued with the existing leaflet and widely distributed to those people who already have the present leaflet. We proposed also to enlist the aid of the women's journals and the Press, the B.B.C. and I.T.A. Our public relations division will give information on the changes and on the supplies available.
Mr. Ellis Smith: Will the hon. Lady arrange for copies of all these leaflets to be placed in the Library so that hon. Members can study them?
Miss Pitt: Yes, I shall be glad to.
I have not lost my sense of proportion in talking of the tremendous improvements which we are all so happy to welcome in the infant mortality and maternal mortality figures. I am well aware that a large part of the credit here should go to the scientific and

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clinical research team generally, doctors, midwives and domiciliary teams who have made such a contribution—in fact, to all members of the team because this has been a team effort. It has produced an encouraging improvement. Our present state of knowledge about the factors which underlie mortality and morbidity rates suggests that the last thing we should do should be to relax our efforts. We intend to maintain the contribution which the nutritional supplements make, but what we ought to do to obtain the maximum advantage in this progress is to use selective methods to influence the mothers through the health visitors and the other health education methods we have, through the maternity and child welfare services, through the work of the doctors and scientists.
Even the comparatively small sum involved in the change which this Order brings about can make a contribution to the concentrated sphere, and is it not better to concentrate all our efforts and the major amount of our resources into those parts rather than spread them over areas which are already well provided for?
I take up the hon. Gentleman's opening words. He asked, what are the social and economic priorities of this Government? To give the best possible Health Service we can, to give the best value we can for money, and we shall do that by concentrating on the areas where the priorities indicate the need.
Mr. Robinson: The hon. Lady has paid a tribute to the value of these welfare foods. She says the Government intend that the distribution shall continue at the present level. If we are right and the Government are wrong and the take-up falls, will the Government reintroduce the free service?
Mr. William Hamilton: No.
Miss Pitt: I do not expect to see any change. If in fact there were such a change one would certainly wish to consider it, but I shall be very surprised indeed if there is any.
12.2 a.m.
Dr. Barnett Stross: I listened with great interest to the hon. Lady, and I enjoyed part of
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her speech very much. It fell into two parts. One was a reasoned and spirited defence of the value of the welfare foods, and with that we sympathised, for that is our case. Then, however, she attempted to defend tampering with the whole scheme by the imposition of charges and defended that, too, and, with respect, I beg her to believe that her argument sounded very weak to us on this side of the House, and to many people who sit behind her, too.
I shall be very brief, but I want to say that the hon. Member for Carlisle (Dr. D. Johnson) was, of course, right in part in one of his statements, that one must be careful not to give too much of this food factor which protects against rickets. It is possible, not from taking cod liver oil—because one could not very well take too much of the normal cod liver oil—to take too much of the vitamin in others forms of oil so rich in content, as, for example, halibut liver oil, and others, where the strength is 250,000 units per gramme against 50 to 200 in cod liver oil. It is therefore essential to protect children, who can become ill or even die if given too much of this vitamin. Therefore, proprietory or unusual brands should not be touched by mothers at all.
To return to what the hon. Lady said. I want to give her and the House one illustration which shows that her argument was unfortunately not valid. If I believed her argument was valid, I would say so. This is the example. Before the war, in the mid-thiries—about 1935—an experiment was conducted on the fate of pregnant women at the time of delivery at the out-patient department at Sheffield. Two groups each composed of 500 women, representing a cross-section of those who attend ante-natal out-patients' departments throughout the country, were formed. One group was treated, but only in the last month of pregnancy, by the addition to their diet of one pint of milk a day and some vitamin A and B tablets. The other group were not disturbed at all. It is reasonable to assume that such large groups represented a fair cross-section of the whole population of ante-natal clinics. The results were amazing. Among those who were not given treatment by way of accessory food in the last month of confinement, the maternal death-rate was high—over five per thousand of births.

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Among those who had the milk and tablets, though only in the last month, the death-rate was slightly above one per thousand of births.
I suggest that in places like Scotland where there is unemployment and where people although unemployed cannot get special assistance or are too proud to apply to the National Assistance Board, there will be womenfolk who if they cannot get the milk, the orange juice, the vitamin tablets or the cod liver oil will die when otherwise they should live. If it is only one death in the whole of Scotland or in Wales it is one too many. and we should take jolly good care not to tamper with a proven method which has brought so many compliments from the Parliamentary Secretary. I remember that in Stoke-on-Trent in 1926 the death rate among mothers was nine per thousand. There has been no death in recent years. We are, therefore, angry at seeing such tampering now with a service which has brought about improvements of which we are so proud.
12.8 a.m.
Miss Margaret Herbison: I have listened to the whole of this short debate, including the few speeches from hon. Members opposite, all of them trying to make a case for the removal of subsidies from these welfare foods. I thought that when the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health replied she would at least attempt to give some medical reasons why these subsidies were being taken away, but not a single medical reason was adduced. Many of the statements which the hon. Lady made about the health of mothers and children were reasons why the subsidies should be continued.
There has been only one real report on this subject—the Cohen Report of the Joint Committee on Welfare Foods set up in 1957, and I should like to refer to some of that Committee's recommendations. The Parliamentary Secretary was asked if any other committee had examined this and given any advice to the right hon. Gentleman or to the Secretary of State for Scotland that caused them to produce these Orders. Her answer to that was as lame as the rest of her reply. She said the advice came from professional people within the Ministry. We do not accept that. These
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subsidies were continued as a result of a most important Committee, and we have a right to ask the Government to continue them until they have independent advice to the contrary. That independent advice has not been produced.
The Cohen Committee said it could be assumed that the incidence of rickets—we know a Jot about rickets in Glasgow—would be greater if the appropriate welfare foods were unavailable. After close examination, that Committee recommended the continuance of the welfare foods scheme. We have had no proof that what obtained at that time does not obtain today.
The Cohen Committee said it was important to maintain the health of the expectant and nursing mothers on the highest level—I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) made such an important point—and that the continuance of welfare foods for this group was justified. We have had no expert advice to the contrary, except that quoted by the hon. Lady.
These Orders are not health measures. The names of three Ministers are attached to them—Agriculture, Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland. I hope that all Scottish Members have noticed that we have not had present for this debate a single Minister who has anything to do with Scottish health, although we have present a Minister who is in charge of education. What a scurvy way to deal with the House of Commons. I know that the Scottish people will take note of it, but after his reply about the teachers yesterday we are not surprised that the Secretary of State himself is not present.
There have been only two back bench Members from Northern Ireland present for the debate, as far as I am aware. If one of them represents a Belfast constituency, perhaps he will declare himself so that his constituents will know of his presence. I see that a third Northern Ireland Member, the hon. Lady the Member for Belfast, West (Mrs. McLaughlin), has just come in. The one woman from Northern Ireland in this House should have been here fighting these Orders.
The Parliamentary Secretary said complacently that we were so prosperous and

1343
that our prosperity was so evenly distributed that no one would suffer hardship under these Orders. It was not so long ago that she was in Glasgow, where the unemployment figure is twice the average for Great Britain. In Northern Ireland the unemployment figure is even higher. I was in Belfast a few weeks ago, and I can say that the people there were very worried about the position. Does the hon. Lady tell me that there will be no hardship in areas of heavy unemployment as a result of this Order?
She may tell me that these people can go to the National Assistance Board. Some of them who have suffered great hardship may find themselves unable to get help from the Board. What about the man who has been unemployed for a long time and who then finds a job? His wife will find that the earnings of the family are too high for her to be able to benefit from National Assistance, although debts may have piled up during the long period of unemployment; she may find that bed linen—which will be particularly necessary—will not be supplied, although hers will have worn out during the long period of unemployment. Does the hon. Lady know anything about the way in which these people live? Can she honestly say that everyone who needs it will get help from the National Assistance Board? I know that everyone will not, and I am certain that all the Ministers concerned also know that.
Not only will they not be able to get help from the Board; not only will they be denied those welfare foods which are essential for the mother and the child; in many cases they will have been denied the proper nutritional foods which they should have had. Hon. Members opposite who have spoken—especially the hon. Member for Carlisle—seemed to think that everybody was in a position to get all the vitamins and nutrition he needed, even without welfare foods. If all our people were in his financial bracket, of course they could see that their families had diets which provided all the necessary vitamins and nutrition. But that is not done cheaply; that is not done if one is living on a minimum wage—and it must be remembered that even a merely very low wage will prevent help being given by the National Assistance Board.
1344
The hon. Member for Carlisle intervened to say that his children had never had these foods, and that there was no scurvy or rickets among them. One swallow does not make a summer, and I should have thought that he would know from conditions in his own constituency that many of his constituents would be quite unable to follow up the line that he followed up with his family, even if they wished to do so.
I was interested in another point made by the Cohen Committee. It said that steps should be taken to extend the education of the public in the nutritional needs of mothers and young children. In other words, rather than the Government going on year after year doing nothing at all about the fall in uptake—as they call it—in these welfare foods, they should have taken the advice of the Cohen Committee and used every form of publicity to let the mothers know how important these welfare foods were. The people will notice that it is only now, when the subsidies are disappearing altogether, that the Parliamentary Secretary has gladly announced all the steps that are to be taken to tell mothers what foods they can get under this welfare scheme. One would think that only now have the Government realised that not sufficient mothers had been taking these welfare foods. Our suspicion is likely to prove correct. It is only now, when they know that it will not cost the taxpayer a penny, that the Government are willing to use these means of trying to put across the idea that people can have them.
The Parliamentary Secretary said that people would get these welfare foods at cost price. Most people would take it for granted that the cost price was the cost of acquiring the foods, the price paid by the Minister, from whatever source he bought them. People will pay more than that. They will pay, in addition, for their storage, treatment and distribution.
My hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) put some pertinent questions to the Minister but did not get an adequate reply. Suppose that there is a great falling off in what is called the uptake of these foods. If the distribution costs have to be spread over a smaller number of people, those who buy them will have to pay even more.

1345
The charge will not be what most people understand to be the cost price, but will include all these other factors.
In spite of the view of the Parliamentary Secretary that there will not be a falling-off in uptake, if there is a falling off is there any guarantee that the Government will bring in another order to restore some form of subsidy? Both the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. K. Lewis) and the Parliamentary Secretary talked about giving help where it was needed. The hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford spoke about the independence of the nation. Are we to deny working-class mothers these welfare foods to make them independent?
I wonder how the wives of rich men win this independence which the Tories consider to be so important. They do not have to worry about the cost of these welfare foods. They do not have to worry about the cost of almost anything. How do the Tories instil this great feeling of independence into their wives and families? It is only when they are trying to impose burdens on the poorest in the country that time and time again they trot out the story of making people independent and being proud of it.
The hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford said that he did not believe in indiscriminate subsidies. That is the opinion also of the Minister of Health. They believe, however, in being indiscriminate in other ways. They did not consider the body of Surtax payers and say, "Some of them might need help and some might not", yet these supposedly poor people are to get £58 million from the Chancellor of the Exchequer next year and £83 in a full year subsequently. The Minister of Health accepts the dictates of the Chancellor, whose name ought to have been attached to this Order, and takes £1½ million from the mothers and children.
It has always seemed to me of the greatest importance that we should care for the health and education of our
children. Responsibility for children is not only that of the parents, though I place it there first. It is the responsibility of a Government to ensure that no child lacks what will make it healthy and strong.
We had a report about dental caries among school children in one area in Scotland which shocked all Scotland. Did not the Minister think that by bringing in this Order he might increase that trouble? Does he not realise that if he does increase it he will have to find the money to pay the dentists to look after these children? Does he not realise that if expectant and nursing mothers are denied these welfare foods they may take up hospital beds, which are very costly indeed?
If we cannot appeal to the Minister on humanitarian and health grounds, I am trying at this late hour to appeal to him on financial and economic grounds, hoping that he will take a step to save the cost of hospital beds and the cost in dentistry because children's teeth are decaying and they are ill. But I do not think we can appeal to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite in any way. Of all the miserable actions of the Tory Government in the last few months, this is the meanest, the most miserable and the most despicable.
Mr. F. M. Bennett: The hon. Lady has two or three more minutes yet.
Miss Herbison: The hon. Gentleman is so used to spending all the evening in another part of the House and coming in here in the last few minutes and making ignorant interruptions. We pay little attention to such a Member.
We shall divide on this. I hope that the people of the country will realise that in order to give wealth to Surtax payers the Tory Government steal from the poorest, from the mothers and from the children something that they ought to have by right.
Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 178, Noes 261.

Division No. 139.]

AYES

[12.29 a.m.

Abse, Leo

Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, W.)

Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

Ainsley, William

Blackburn, F.

Bowles, Frank

Allaun, Frank (Salford. E.)

Blyton, William

Boyden, James

Awbery, Stan

Boardman, H.

Brockway, A. Fenner

Bacon, Miss Alice

Bowden, Herbert W. (Leics, S. W.)

Broughton, Dr. A, D. D,

Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

Probert, Arthur

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

Proctor, W. T.

Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

Jeger, George

Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

Callaghan, James

Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

Randall, Harry

Castle, Mrs. Barbara

Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

Rankin, John

Chapman, Donald

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Redhead, E. C.

Chetwynd, George

Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

Reid, William

Collick, Percy

Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

Reynolds, G. W.

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Kelley, Richard

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

King, Dr. Horace

Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Crosland, Anthony

Ledger, Ron

Robinson, Kenneth (St Pancras, N.)

Cullen, Mrs. Alice

Lee, Frederick (Newton)

Rogers, G. H. R. (Kensington, N.)

Darling, George

Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

Ross, William

Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

Lever, L. M. (Ardwiok)

Short, Edward

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

Silver-man, Julius (Aston)

Deer, George

Lipton, Marcus

Skeffington, Arthur

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Loughlin Charles

Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

Delargy, Hugh

Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

Small, William

Dempsey, James

McCann, John

Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

Diamond, John

MacColl, James

Sorensen, R. W.

Dodds, Norman

McInnes, James

Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

Driberg, Tom

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Spriggs, Leslie

Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Islet)

Steele, Thomas

Edelman, Maurice

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Stonehouse, John

Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

Stones, William

Evans, Albert

Manuel, A. C.

Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)

Fernyhough, E.

Mapp, Charles

Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

Finch, Harold

Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

Swain, Thomas

Fletcher, Eric

Marsh, Richard

Taylor, John (West Lothian)

Forman, J. C.

Mason, Roy

Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh

Mayhew, Chistopher

Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

Ginsburg, David

Mellish, R. J.

Thornton, Ernest

Gourlay, Harry

Mendelson, J. J.

Timmons, John

Greenwood, Anthony

Millan, Bruce

Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

Grey, Charles

Milne, Edward J.

Warbey, William

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Lianelly)

Mitohison, G. R.

Weitzman, David

Griffiths, W. (Exchange)

Monslow, Walter

Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

Moody, A. S.

White, Mrs. Eirene

Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

Morris, John

Whitlock, William

Hamilton, William (West Fife)

Moyle, Arthur

Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

Hannan, William

Mulley, Frederick

Wilkins, W. A.

Hart, Mrs. Judith

Neal, Harold

Willey, Frederick

Hayman, F. H.

Oswald, Thomas

Williams, LI. (Abetillery)

Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur(RwlyRegis)

Pannell, Charles (Leeds W.)

Williams, W- R. (Openshaw)

Herbison, Miss Margaret

Pargiter, G. A.

Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Parker, John

Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

Hill, J. (Midlothian)

Parkin, B. T.

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

Hilton, A. V.

Pavitt, Laurence

Woof, Robert

Holman, Percy

Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

Wyatt, Woodrow

Houghton, Douglas

Peart, Frederick

Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Pentland, Norman

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Plummer, Sir Leslie

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Hunter, A. E.

Popplewell, Ernest

Mr. Charles A. Howell and

Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

Prentice, R. E.

Mr. Lawson.

Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

NOES

Agnew, Sir Peter

Bromley-Davenport. Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Aitken, W. T.

Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

Crowder, F. P.

Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

Brooman-White, R.

Curran, Charles

Allason, James

Browne, Percy (Torrington)

Dalkeith, Earl of

Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian(Preston, N.)

Bryan, Paul

Dance, James

Arbuthnot, John

Buck, Antony

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Ashton, Sir Hubert

Bullard, Denys

Deedes, W. F.

Balniel, Lord

Butcher, Sir Herbert

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Barber, Anthony

Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

Doughty, Charles

Barlow, Sir John

Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

Drayson, G. B.

Barter, John

Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

du Cann, Edward

Batsford, Brian

Channon, H.P.G.

Duncan, Sir James

Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

Chataway, Christopher

Duthie, Sir William

Bennett. F. M. (Torquay)

Chichester-Clark, R.

Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

Berkeley, Humphry

Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

Elliott, R. W. (Nwestle-upon-Tyne, N.)

Bidgood, John C.

Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

Emery, Peter

Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

Cleaver, Leonard

Errington, Sir Eric

Bishop, F. P.

Cooke, Robert

Farr, John

Black, Sir Cyril

Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

Finlay, Graeme

Bossom, Clive

Cordle, John

Fisher, Nigel

Bourne-Arton, A.

Corfield, F. V.

Foster, John

Box, Donald

Costain, A. P.

Fraser, Hn. Hugh (Stafford & Stone)

Boyle, Sir Edward

Coulson, J. M.

Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

Braine, Bernard

Craddock, Sir Beresford

Freeth, Denzil

Brewis, John

Critchley, Julian

Gammans, Lady

1348

1349

Gardner, Edward

Linstead, Sir Hugh

Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

Gibson-watt, David

Litchfield, Capt. John

Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

Glover, Sir Douglas

Lloyd, Rt. Hon, Selwyn (Wirral)

Robson Brown, Sir William

Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

Longbottom, Charles

Roots, William

Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

Loveys, Walter H.

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Goodhart, Philip

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

Goodhew, Victor

MacArthur, Ian

Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan

Gough, Frederick

McLaren, Martin

Scott-Hopkins, James

Grant, Rt. Hon. William

McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

Seymour, Leslie

Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R.

Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

Sharpies, Richard

Green, Alan

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute & N. Ayrs.)

Shaw, M.

Gresham Cooke, R.

McLean, Neil (Inverness)

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir Jocelyn

Grimston, Sir Robert

Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

Skeet, T. H. H.

Gurden, Harold

MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'rd & Chiswick)

Hall, John (Wycombe)

McMaster, Stanley R.

Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

Spearman, Sir Alexander

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Maddan, Martin

Stanley, Hon. Richard

Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

Maitland, Sir John

Stevens, Geoffrey

Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

Manningham-Butler, Rt. Hn. Sir R,

Storey, Sir Samuel

Harvie Anderson, Miss

Marten, Neil

Studholme, Sir Henry

Hay, John

Mathew, Robert (Honlton)

Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)

Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

Talbot, John E.

Hiley, Joseph

Mawby, Ray

Tapsell, Peter

Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

Maydon, Lt.-Cdr. S. L. C.

Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

Mills, Stratton

Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.)

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Motngomery, Fergus

Teeling, William

Hirst. Geoffrey

More, Jasper (Ludlow)

Temple, John M.

Hobson, John

Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

Hollingworth, John

Nabarro, Gerald

Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John

Neave, Airey

Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

Hopkins, Alan

Nicholls, Sir Harmar

Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

Hornby, R. P.

Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives)

Noble, Michael

Tilney, John (Wavertree)

Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

Nugent, Sir Richard

Turner, Colin

Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

Hughes-Young, Michael

Page, Graham (Crosby)

Tweedsmuir, Lady

Hulbert, Sir Norman

Partridge, E.

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

Vaughan-Morgan, Sir John

Iremonger, T. L.

Peel, John

Vickers, Miss Joan

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Percival, Ian

Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

Jackson, John

Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

Walder, David

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Walker, Peter

Jennings, J. C.

Pilkington, Sir Richard

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek

Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

Pitman, I. J.

Ward, Dame Irene

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Pitt, Miss Edith

Watts, James

Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

Pott, Percivall

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Joseph, Sir Keith

Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

Whitelaw, William

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

Prior, J. M. L.

Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

Kerby, Capt. Henry

Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

Kimball, Marcus

Proudfoot, Wilfred

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Kirk, Peter

Pym, Francis

Wise, A. R.

Lagden, Godfrey

Quennell, Miss J, M.

Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

Langford-Holt, J.

Ramsden, James

Woodhouse, C. M.

Leather, E. H. C.

Rawlinson, Peter

Woodnutt, Mark

Leavey, J. A.

Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

Woollam, John

Leburn, Gilmour

Rees, Hugh

Worsley, Marcus

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Yates, William (The Wrekin)

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Renton, David

Lilley, F. J. P.

Ridley, Hon. Nioholas

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Lindsay, Martin

Rippon, Geoffrey

Mr. Edward Wakefield and

Colonel J. H. Harrison.

COSTS OF LEASES ACT, 1958
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Gibson-Watt.]
12.40 a.m.
Mr. John E. Talbot: This Adjournment debate differs somewhat from the usual, inasmuch as it is directed neither to a complaint against the Government or a Government Department, nor to a particular constituency matter. The subject which I have obtained your leave to raise, Mr. Speaker, is the Costs of Leases Act, 1958, a short Act introduced by a private Member, which reached the Statute Book in July, 1958. It consists of only three Sections, of which the third is the usual definition Section. The second is an interpretation Section. The first Section is short enough for me to read, and it succinctly expresses the point to which I wish to refer:
"Notwithstanding any custom to the contrary, a party to a lease shall, unless the parties thereto agree otherwise in writing, be under no obligation to pay the whole or any part of any other party's solicitor's costs of the lease".
The Act had a peculiarly rapid passage through the House of Commons. I am unable to trace that any debate whatever took place on it. It received a Second Reading, Report stage and Third Reading without any discussion whatever, and the Committee stage is stated to have commenced at 10.31 a.m. and to have terminated at 10.32. One must suppose, therefore, that either the Bill was so generally acceptable to the House that it did not require discussion at all or, possibly, that hon. Members other than those in the legal profession failed to realise what they were doing.
When the Bill reached another place, however, the situation was different. A Second Reading debate took place there from which some useful material emanated. The noble Lord who introduced the Bill said that
"The existing custom"—
that is to say, the custom that a landlord's costs as well as his own solicitor's costs are paid by the tenant—
"appears to have no logical basis in these days and is frequently the cause of great
1352
hardship and irritation to a lessee…who…finds himself faced with the burden of two sets of costs".
The Bill was welcomed by the Lord Chancellor on behalf of the Government as a useful amendment to the law, but there was one noble Lord who expressed a certain measure of dissent. He said:
"My quarrel with the Bill is that it does not remove the anomaly or the hardship; it merely regularises it, because as soon as this Bill bcomes law very lessor will put into his contract a provision that the lessee must pay the costs".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 17th July, 1958; Vol. 210, c. 669–70.]
That is precisely what has happened in the event.
I speak now from my own experience as a country conveyancing solicitor. I find that this Act is very little known. It is not universally known to members of the legal profession. But I find that it is most unequal in its incidence and operation. I act for landlords and tenants, but probably more for landlords than for tenants, and I find that the rich, powerful and well-advised landlords, in particular property companies with solicitors and estate agents on their boards, invariably insert a clause in their leases, which tenants have to accept, that their costs shall be paid.
In my experience, it is done in one of two ways. Either the members of the estate agency which offer the proxy to the intending tenant directly state that he must pay the landlord's solicitor's costs, about which there can then be no question, or, when the matter proceeds to the preparation of a formal document there is hidden towards the end a clause which specifically transfers the burden.
It might be asked, "Where is the injustice of that? You are allowed to agree by the Statute and you either accept the law as it stands or you contract out of it."
Mr. Speaker: I do not want to interrupt the hon. Member, but I am in some difficulty. I can allow the hon. Member to talk only about that for which there is Ministerial responsibility, and I am not clear about where the responsibility for enforcing this Statute lies. I cannot allow the hon. Member other than an incidental reference to a legislative remedy. I am not certain how I can keep the hon. Member in order.
Mr. Talbot: I am much obliged. I had expected that difficulty, and it had

1353
been pointed out to me. I was hoping to have your approval to stating the facts as they are known to me. I do not propose to talk about legislation, because I know that that is not within the scope of an Adjournment debate. If I may give a parallel; the detective does not say to the criminal, "I charge you with murder"; what he does is to assemble the facts in such a way that everything then seems to point to the murderer. I hope that if I do it in that form, I shall keep within your Ruling, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: That does not answer the other point, of where the Ministerial responsibility for all this is. I must be assisted about that.
Mr. Talbot: I can only say that the Attorney-General, as the fountain of the law, below the judges, is responsible for the consideration of such legal matters as do not fall within the province of any particular member of the Government. This was a private Member's Measure and was not sponsored by any Government Department, so far as I can discover. It was the responsibility of the Lord Chancellor in the House of Lords. I can think of no Minister who would be responsible other than the Attorney-General.
Mr. Speaker: I do not know whether the Solicitor-General can help me. I am a little puzzled at the moment about how I can find some Ministerial responsibility.
The Solicitor-General (Sir Jocelyn Simon): I would have thought that the only responsibility which could be pinned on my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General was that of initiating legislation if various criticisms which my hon. Friend has directed and proposes to direct against the Act are valid. I think that on those grounds anything he says is out of order.
Mr. Speaker: I am afraid that I am faced with this dilemma, and I do not see any way out. I will gladly assist the hon. Member if I can, but if the only Ministerial responsibility is for a legislative remedy, the whole Adjournment debate would be out of order, in accordance with the practice of the House. I have no wish to get in the hon. Member's way, but I am obliged to do so.
Mr. Talbot: I appreciate the difficulty and I am most grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend and yourself, Mr. Speaker, for endeavouring to extricate me from the position in which I find myself. By its nature, the Act cannot be a responsibility of the Government, because there is no power of enforcement in the Government. It is purely a matter of private law which the courts would have to enforce if a proper case for enforcement arose. When, as I allege, there exists a set of facts for consideration—and my only request is for consideration—if that consideration conveys to the Government the idea that something ought to be done, I feel that such a discussion would fall within the terms of the Adjournment.
The Solicitor-General: I do not think that my hon. Friend is asking for a platonic consideration but a consideration with a view to legislation.
Mr. Speaker: I am afraid that it is very difficult to suppose otherwise. I do not think that I can allow the hon. Member to continue. Perhaps I may soften the bitterness of my blow by expressing the hope that the fact that the hon. Member has drawn attention to these evils may be noticed in some way as a result of what he has done.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at ten minutes to One o'clock.

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  Road Schemes
  Ferriby By-pass
  Ferriby By-pass
  Relief Road, Newbury
  Relief Road, Newbury
  Cromwell Road
  Cromwell Road
  Bristol-Penzance Motorway
  Bristol-Penzance Motorway
SHIPPING
  I.L.O. Convention (Fishermen)
  I.L.O. Convention (Fishermen)
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Credit Card Service
  Credit Card Service
  Local Calls (Timing)
  Local Calls (Timing)
  Subscriber Trunk Dialling (Kirkcaldy)
  Subscriber Trunk Dialling (Kirkcaldy)
  North-West Kent
  North-West Kent
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Immigrants
  Immigrants
  Police Dogs
  Police Dogs
  South African Citizens
  South African Citizens
  Sentenced Persons
  Sentenced Persons
  Isle of Man (Financial Agreement)
  Isle of Man (Financial Agreement)
  SPAIN (EUROCHEMIC COMPANY SHARES)
  SPAIN (EUROCHEMIC COMPANY SHARES)
  ISRAEL (EICHMANN TRIAL)
  ISRAEL (EICHMANN TRIAL)
  EX-SUDAN CIVIL SERVANTS (PENSIONS)
  EX-SUDAN CIVIL SERVANTS (PENSIONS)
  NEPAL (ECONOMIC AID)
  NEPAL (ECONOMIC AID)
  MUSCAT AND OMAN (ASSISTANCE)
  MUSCAT AND OMAN (ASSISTANCE)
  ALGERIA (REFUGEES)
  ALGERIA (REFUGEES)
  ICELANDIC FISHERIES
  ICELANDIC FISHERIES
  NORTH-EAST ATLANTIC (FISH CONSERVATION)
  NORTH-EAST ATLANTIC (FISH CONSERVATION)
  IMMUNITIES AND PRIVILEGES
  IMMUNITIES AND PRIVILEGES
CONGO
  Military Personnel (Passports)
  Military Personnel (Passports)
  Captured British Subjects
  Captured British Subjects
  United Nations Conciliation Commission (Report)
  United Nations Conciliation Commission (Report)
  U.S.S.R. (NATIONAL YOUTH ORCHESTRA VISIT)
  U.S.S.R. (NATIONAL YOUTH ORCHESTRA VISIT)
ROYAL NAVY
  Submarines
  Submarines
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  V-Bombers
  V-Bombers
  Early Warning Station, Fylingdales
  Early Warning Station, Fylingdales
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Retired Officers
  Retired Officers
  Air Estimates (Statement)
  Air Estimates (Statement)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Fishing Industry
  Fishing Industry
COLONIAL TERRITORIES
  South Pacific Commission
  South Pacific Commission
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Oil Industry
  Oil Industry
  Civil Servants
  Civil Servants
  Approved Superannuation Schemes
  Approved Superannuation Schemes
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Poliomyelitis (Oral Vaccine)
  Poliomyelitis (Oral Vaccine)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Town and Country Planning Acts (Compensation)
  Town and Country Planning Acts (Compensation)
SCOTLAND
  Further Education (Teachers)
  Further Education (Teachers)
EMPLOYMENT
  Apprentices, Scotland
  Apprentices, Scotland
  Remploy Limited (Grant)
  Remploy Limited (Grant)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Worcester

MURDER SENTENCES AND REPRIEVES
2.35 p.m.
LORD AILWYN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many persons have been condemned to death for capital murder in each year since the Homicide Act, 1957, came into operation; how many of these persons were subsequently reprieved and sentenced to life imprisonment or to be detained during Her Majesty's pleasure; how many persons have been convicted each year of non-capital murder and been sentenced to life imprisonment or detention during Her Majesty's pleasure.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (EARL BATHURST): My Lords, from 21st March, 1957, when the Homicide Act came into operation, up to the end of 1957, 5 persons were sentenced to death in Great Britain for capital murder; the sentence on I of these persons was commuted to life imprisonment. During the same period 1 person aged less than eighteen was found guilty of capital murder and sentenced to be detained during Her Majesty's pleasure. The corresponding figures for the calendar year 1958 were 11 sentenced, 4 reprieved and none detained; for 1959 they were 6, 1 and none; and for 1960 they were 11, 5 and 1. From 21st March, 1957, up to the end of 1957, 23 persons were convicted of non-capital murder, all of whom were sentenced to life imprisonment. In the calendar year 1958, 25 persons were convicted of non-
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capital murder, of whom 24 were sentenced to life imprisonment and 1 (being under the age of eighteen) was sentenced to be detained during Her Majesty's pleasure. In 1959, the corresponding figures were 42, 40 and 2, and in 1960 they were 35, 34 and 1.
LORD AILWYN: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Earl.

AFTER-CONDUCT OF SEXUAL OFFENDERS
LORD AILWYN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many persons in the last decade who have been released from prison after being convicted of sexual crime have subsequently been reconvicted of a further offence of the same nature.]
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I am sorry that this information is not available. However, the Report published in 1957 of an inquiry carried out by the Cambridge Department of Criminal Science, now the Institute of Criminology, into sexual offences contains relevant information. It shows that, of the persons sentenced to imprisonment for sexual offences whose after-conduct was observed, 24 per cent. were reconvicted of sexual offences within a period of less than four years following their discharge from prison. For persons sentenced to imprisonment for heterosexual offences the reconviction rate was 17 per cent.; the corresponding figure for homosexual offences was 30 per cent. and for offences of indecent exposure 28 per cent.
LORD AILWYN: I am much obliged to my noble friend.

ADMINISTRATION OF WELFARE SERVICES
2.40 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider the appointment of an officer who would solve difficult problems involving different branches of the welfare services and different areas and who would have authority to make administrative arrangements.]
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, the needs which these services meet are so varied that a single administration, even in the same area, could not be satisfactory. Officers of these services may be relied on to put individuals in touch with the particular branch they require. There are also organisations such as the Citizens' Advice Bureaux, which afford guidance. Her Majesty's Government consider that these are the right methods.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, may I venture to ask two supplementary questions separately? First, does the noble Lord remember a case—I choose the most illustrative that I can think of—some years ago when an Englishwoman with three children was deserted by her husband in Africa? Does the noble Lord remember that it was learned that she was coming home and that there would be housing trouble and trouble which would need help from the Assistance Board? Nothing could be arranged, and some months later this woman was discovered in London in shocking conditions—which was not very creditable to the Welfare State. Would the noble Lord be able to say what action should be taken by the person discovering the imminence of a case like that, and how it would be dealt with?
LORD NEWTON: My Lards, I am afraid that I do not have any personal recollection of this particular case, which sounds to me a most unusual one; and I do not think that I can really express any opinion of the merits of a particular case without looking into it.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, may I say that I quite agree with the noble Lord that such cases are not common but straddle areas and departments of the Welfare State. Does not the noble Lord consider that it might be a wise step to appoint some official, either in the Assistance Board or in the Ministry of Health, or some other Department, an official
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known to everybody, who would be able to take cognisance of such cases when they are reported due and arrange for them to be properly treated, and so save scandal?
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I am quite certain that any body who makes an inquiry of any Department of the Government about matters affecting that Department will get an answer.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I am sorry to press the point, but the noble Lord has not understood me. My whole point is that these matters often affect more than one Department and cannot be dealt with without co-operation between the various branches of the Welfare State.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the Citizens' Advice Bureaux exist for precisely that purpose? We understand that they are doing their job very well.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Earl opposite for what he has said. That is perfectly true, and that is why I referred to the Citizens' Advice Bureaux in my original Answer. But to reply to my noble friend, so far as putting people on the right track is concerned and, if necessary seeing that various welfare services are linked together, that is commonly done by the officer or other person who is responsible for giving an individual service; and that person may be either a doctor or an officer of the appropriate local authority, or of the National Assistance Board.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, does the noble Lord really mean to say that if I become aware of a case such as I have described to him I am charged with the onerous duty of weeks of work trying to co-ordinate Government Departments? Surely it is much better that somebody with authority and knowledge should be charged with that duty.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I should have thought that when one is faced with a problem of that kind the thing to do is to get in touch either with the Minister or with an officer in the Department of the Minister which is most concerned with the problem of the individual affected. I am bound to say that that is what I used to do when I was a Member

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of another place; and I found that my constituents were never reluctant to ask me to give that kind of advice and help. And I personally never had any difficulty in getting the right people to look into the problem.

CAPITAL MURDER CONVICTIONS OF YOUNG PERSONS
THE EARL OF HADDINGTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many persons under the age of 21 have been condemned to death for capital murder since the Homicide Act, 1957, came into operation, and how many of these persons were subsequently reprieved.]
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, five persons under the age of 21 have been convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death. Two of these were subsequently reprieved.
THE EARL OF HADDINGTON: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for these figures, and I am sure we are all delighted to see that they are so very low. May I, as a supplementary question, just ask Her Majesty's Government for this assurance? I understand that the Government require a period in which to test out the working of the Homicide Act. I believe the period to be about five years. If that is so, the five-year limit has very nearly been reached. When that period has expired will Her Majesty's Government give this matter their most searching examination and see whether it is not possible to raise the age limit below which no person may be hanged from 18 to 21 years, always bearing in mind the majority recommendations of both the Select Committee and the Royal Commission?
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I think I can go no further than to draw my noble friend's attention to the words of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary in another place on April 12, when he said, among other things [col. 273]:
"It is too soon to draw conclusions about the result of the Homicide Act, 1957."
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, I am rather perturbed, and I hope that my supplementary question will meet with some approval by your Lordships. As to the advisability or otherwise of the judgment of the courts being eliminated for some reason or other, I would ask my noble friend who answered the Questions, which my noble friend had on the Order Paper, and I would also ask my noble friend behind me, two questions. Is not this a moment when we should try to get some investigation into whether, when the courts have decided quite definitely on any question and when judges and other people in authority have reached a conclusion, their recommendations and judgment should be carried out without any of this investigation which, so far as I can see, is quite out of proportion?
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I do not think that my noble friend's statement is quite in line with the Questions of my other noble friends; but no doubt my right honourable friend the Home Secretary will see the words that my noble friend has said.
THE EARL OF LONGFORD: My Lords, is the noble Earl the Minister aware that these matters are likely to be raised in a very acute way on the Criminal Justice Bill?
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I have drawn attention to the fact that these matters have already been raised in another place, and I have no doubt that they will be raised again.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, are we to take the reply of the noble Earl the Minister to the supplementary question of the noble Earl, Lord Haddington, as a denial that there was an understanding that the Homicide Act should be reviewed after five years?—because I should regard that as a very serious matter.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, my reply must not be taken to be in any way a denial. I only drew attention to what my right honourable friend the Home Secretary said in another place in the course of a very lengthy speech, which it would not be right to go through in your Lordships' House to-day.
BARONESS HORSBRUGH: My Lords, did the noble Earl say that there was

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any real understanding when the Homicide Act was passed that it was to be reviewed after five years? This is the first I have heard that there was an actual understanding that that should be done.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, there was no such understanding.
Lam CHORLEY: My Lords, that was categorically Stated by a member of the noble Earl's own Party in another place.

LAOS
2.48 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl the Foreign Secretary the Question of which I have given Private Notice: Whether he can make a further statement on the situation in Laos and the talks with the Soviet Government on the British proposals?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, the military situation on most fronts in Laos is confused. There have lately been reports of fighting on the Southern-Central sector opposite Thakhek. There is insufficient evidence to judge whether this is merely a local action or whether it represents a serious rebel thrust to try to cut Laos in half. The air-lift of arms from Communist countries is continuing.
As the House knows, Her Majesty's Government have always set the highest importance upon obtaining the earliest possible cease-fire. There has already been too much delay. I have therefore instructed Her Majesty's Ambassador in Moscow to discuss with the Russians a definite timetable of action: an immediate request for a cease-fire to be issued to-morrow, April 20; the International Commission to be convened and sent to New Delhi—from there it would proceed to Laos to verify the cease-fire; the 14 Power Conference on Laos to meet on May 5.
I hope very much that the Soviet Government will be able to accept these proposals. Marty of the suggestions in their communication to us of April 16 were quite acceptable, but it was not clear whether they agreed to our request
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for an immediate cease-fire to precede the International Conference.
I hope my specific proposals will remove any doubt and let us get on with the process of finding a political settlement. I would add that I will be present at the opening of the Conference and when necessary after that, but that I have asked Mr. Malcolm Macdonald to conduct the negotiations on behalf of Her Majesty's Government.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am much obliged to the Foreign Secretary for the clear statement he has made. May I take it that the three proposals he has mentioned were, in fact, those reported as delivered yesterday by the Ambassador in Moscow? I notice that in these proposals there are two dates mentioned specifically by the Foreign Secretary: the first is April 20, with regard to the question of the cease-fire; and it is suggested that the fourteen-Power Conference should meet on May 5. But no date is mentioned about the International Commission to be convened and sent to New Delhi. Could the Foreign Secretary say anything more about that?
THE EARL OF HOME: Yes, my Lords, the noble Viscount is right about the proposals I have sent to Mr. Gromyko, which the Ambassador was instructed to convey yesterday. The proposal is that the International Commission should co to New Delhi simultaneously with the issue of the request for the cease-fire; in other words, to-morrow or the next day, as soon as they can get there. And from there I would hope that they will go straight to Laos to report that the cease-fire is effected.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am much obliged. I feel that I can say on behalf of the whole House that the steps which the Foreign Secretary has taken in this particular matter get our support, and I hope he will be successful in getting the cease-fire.
LORD STRANG: My Lords, like the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition, we all hope that the latest steps taken by the Foreign Secretary will be successful as regards Laos. But have not the delaying tactics of the Russians so far proved very disturbing, and does this not suggest that the

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Russians have been postponing acceptance until their adherents are able to gain victory in the field?
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I do not think that anybody could blame anyone if he drew that conclusion. But one of the purposes of my proposals to Mr. Gromyko was to enable him to show that those conclusions are false.

CUBA
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether it would be possible for him to make any further statement about the very difficult situation in Cuba?
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, we have very little information about the situation in Cuba beyond what has appeared in the Press, because there has really been a black-out on information. The situation, as the noble Viscount knows, is under discussion now in the Political Committee of the General Assembly, and a number of resolutions are being considered there. But Her Majesty's Ambassador in Havana has been able to report by telephone—I am sorry I could not tell the noble Viscount, since I got this information only as I walked into the House—that there have been very many arrests in Cuba and these seem to include four British subjects. Apart from these, so far as the Ambassador was aware, no harm has come to other British subjects in the island.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I suppose there is no information yet as to whether the four British subjects were actually members in some way of the rebel military forces.
THE EARL OF HOME: No information at all, my Lords. The Ambassador had been able to see one of the prisoners, but has not told me what the charge was or anything of that sort. Now I do not know whether he can get through, if there are any communications open. Of course, it is the Ambassador's duty to ensure that proper treatment is given to any prisoners—if they are charged to arrange the proper legal defence, and if they are not charged to take such
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steps as are necessary to secure their release.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I take it that, in view of the great importance of developments out of this situation, we are keeping in touch with all the N.A.T.O. countries concerned and particularly, I expect, with the United States. I hope that the Foreign Secretary may be able to report to the House as often as possible on what is advisable while this matter is going on.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I will certainly do that as soon as I get reliable information.

ESSEX RAIL CRASH
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I beg to ask Her Majesty's Government the Question of which I have given Private Notice: Whether they have any statement to make on the rail crash last night at Pitsea.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport is proposing to make a statement in reply to a Question in another place at about 3.30 p.m. With your Lordships' permission, I should like to seek a convenient opportunity to make a similar statement as soon as possible after that time.

NATIONAL PARKS
2.55 p.m.
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN rose to call attention to the national parks; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, it is almost exactly ten years since the first national park in this country was confirmed and approved by the Government; namely, the Peak District. Since then, nine other areas have been designated and confirmed as national parks, the latest being the Brecon Beacons about four years ago. I feel, therefore, that it is opportune that we should to-day celebrate the tenth anniversary of the first national park by having a discussion as to what progress has been made in carrying out the purpose for which these parks were originally

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set up; what difficulties and problems have emerged; what we can do to increase the enjoyment they give and are capable of giving to the general public; and, generally, for hearing what noble Lords feel about our national parks.
First I should like to say a word about their geographical distribution. Of the ten national parks, seven are in England and three in Wales. That seems a rather unfair distribution, having regard to the respective areas of the two countries, but if one takes into account the exceptional beauty of Wales in most of its parks, then I think that is probably about right. The area which has been confirmed represents about one-eighth of the total area of England itself, and about one-fifth of Wales, which is very considerable. Unfortunately, there are no national parks in Scotland. Whether they felt that there were no areas of outstanding beauty or whether they felt that there was no need to try to preserve them I do not know; but there is to-day a very strong movement in Scotland for the creation of national parks, and it may well be that in the near future something will be done about Scotland.
When one looks at the distribution of these national parks one is struck by the fact that there is no national park within a reasonable return journey within a day from London. The nearest national park to the London area is the Peak District, which is about 150 miles away. I had hoped that we might have been able to designate and confirm the Norfolk Broads as well as the Sussex Downs or the Chilterns. I should have thought that each of them would qualify as a national park on the criteria laid down in the Act, and certainly they are exceptionally beautiful areas. As to the Norfolk Broads, I am aware that the Government were conducting discussions with representatives of bodies affected by the recommendations of the Committee of Inquiry into Inland Waterways, the Bowes Committee. This was in 1959. I have not heard what the results of those discussions are. I have given the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, notice that I was going to ask this question, and no doubt lie will be able to tell us whether any progress has been made in dealing with the Norfolk Broads. As noble Lords who know that area are aware,
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there is a considerable danger of them silting up, and, gradually, this unique and most beautiful part of England is disappearing—I admit slowly, but each year that goes by reduces the amount of waterways in the Norfolk Broads.
I realise also, as regards other areas around London, that a number of them—areas of outstanding natural beauty—have been designated and confirmed. The Kent and Sussex Downs are under consideration; the Surrey hills, I believe, have been confirmed; the Chilterns have been confirmed, and there are several others which the National Parks Commission have in mind. But we have to bear in mind that designating areas of outstanding natural beauty is a second best, and that the powers of the National Parks Commission in respect of those areas are limited, as are the powers of the planning committees, If it had been possible for the Commission to crown their achievement by establishing one or more national parks within reasonable reach of London, I think most of the one-third of the population of this country which is residing in or around London would have been very pleased indeed.
Now in creating our national parks there were two objects in mind: first, the preservation and enhancement of the beauty of the landscape, and second, the enjoyment of those areas by the public. I cannot feel too happy that the first of these purposes has always been the dominant consideration in the mind of the Government. Too often the beauty of an area has been spoiled or greatly impaired by permitting the erection of industrial buildings or allowing mineral gravel workings to take place when other places might have been found that were less desirable from a scenic point of view, though possibly at some additional cost. I was going to refer to the noble Lord, Lord Mills, hut he is not here; he has conveniently left the Chamber. But the overhead mains for the supply of electricity are often seriously damaging to the high scenic beauty of areas such as those we are considering.
One example of many is referred to in the Commission's Report for 1960. It

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is the case of overhead mains at White-sands Bay, near St. David's, in Pembrokeshire. This has caused the Chairman of the Commission to write a long letter to the Minister concerned; and, knowing the noble Lord, Lord Strang (whom I am sure we are all glad to see here), and his abundant patience, it is significant that he should have felt it necessary to write to the Minister in the terms of that letter, which is referred to in Appendix E of the Eleventh Report of the Commission.
This is a case where the local planning authority have objected to the provision of electricity by overhead mains over a certain part of the area, and have asked that a portion of the mains should be put underground. The Electricity Board stated at the inquiry—and this is the gravamen of the case against them—that if they could not put the wires overhead the inhabitants would have to wait indefinitely for their supply. This places the local planning authority and the Commission, who are charged with the duty of preserving and enhancing the beauty of the area, in very great difficulty: either they have to abandon their objection or they have to leave the locality without electricity for an indefinite period. I submit that that is a most improper alternative to put before the National Parks Commission or the local planning authority.
Obviously, the Electricity Board have to face the fact that, for some areas, the cost of providing underground wires will be greater, and this is one of the things that they have been required to take into account under Section 37 of the Electricity Act, 1957. In formulating their proposals, they have to take account of the effect on the landscape of anything they propose to do. And, while nobody would be so unreasonable as to require them always to put their wiring underground, whatever the cost may be, I would suggest it is most improper of them to take the view that, whatever the National Parks Commission may say, if the planning authority insist on having the wires underground there will be no electricity supply for the inhabitants. Even the Electricity Board are not entitled to make a dead letter of an Act of Parliament; and those noble Lords who took part in the discussions on the Electricity Bill in 1957
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will remember that this House took a very strong view about the preservation of the landscape in appropriate areas. Section 37 was put into the Act at the urgent pressure of noble Lords in this House, and if it is to be virtually abrogated, then I think that this House ought to take very serious note of it. I should be very glad to hear from the noble Earl, who I think is aware of this point, what is the Government's view of this matter. Is Section 37 of the 1957 Electricity Act still in force, or is it not? If it is in force, then the Electricity Board should not make the kind of statements which they have made at the recent inquiry and also, I understand, at other inquiries.
Now I should like to make some comments about forestry. A number of noble Lords who are speaking to-day are very interested in this subject, and quite properly. The question has arisen as to the number of afforestation proposals in the national park areas, particularly in Dartmoor and Exmoor. Afforestation is carried out primarily, and to a very great extent, by the Forestry Commission—and let me say at once that there is no complaint at all about the attitude of the Forestry Commission. Having made a number of complaints, and being about to make some more, I feel it is gratifying to be able to say about one body that one has no complaint about them at all. They have been very co-operative; there has been the closest consultation between the National Parks Commission and the Forestry Commission as regards woodlands for which they are responsible; and I understand that they have been able to settle all questions amicably. The problem really arises owing to the considerable increase in recent years in private forestry, and particularly on open lands—as I have said, on Dartmoor and Exmoor. As the law stands at present, Section 12 of the Town and Country Planning Act does not regard the planting of trees, or afforestation, as development; therefore no planning permission is required to enable a body of persons Or individuals to carry out this activity.
I do not claim for a moment that all afforestation, even on open land, should be automatically prohibited; that would be quite unreasonable. In some cases afforestation might even enhance the beauty of the land. Nor do I claim that

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the planting of any particular kind of tree is objectionable or otherwise. I am not arguing for or against conifers or hardwood, or anything of that sort. All I am suggesting is that, in these special areas, before any individual should be allowed completely to change its character by planting trees on a large scale on land at present open land, there should be some consultation and some agreement; and that nobody should be allowed, at his own pleasure, to desecrate land which has been dedicated to the public. Much of this open land, in any case, is land to which the public has access, and by planting on a large scale the public are deprived of that access.
That is the problem which has to be faced. The Government have considered this matter. I understand that they have had discussions with the bodies representing the forestry owners, and an agreement has been entered into. I hope the noble Lord will be able to elaborate, because I think the particulars of the agreement—
THE EARL. OF BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord? I shall be referring to three paragraphs of the agreement, if that is any help to the noble Lord.
LORD SILKIN: I am much obliged; then we shall learn more about it. My understanding, subject to what those noble Lords who are going to deal with it will say, is that a voluntary agreement has been entered into by which all proposals for afforestation in these areas will be brought to the notice of the National Parks Commission and the local planning committees; that they will be discussed, and that, in the event of disagreement, the matter will be dealt with by the Minister.
If I am right, then the only question I should like to be clear about is this. At present, any decision by the Minister is not binding—because it still remains the fact that afforestation is not "development" within the terms of the 1947 Act. I should like to be quite clear whether the forestry owners will accept the decision of the Minister as to whether or not they shall he allowed to plant. If the position is that they have agreed to accept his decision and that they will not act contrary to it, then I think the
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agreement might be allowed to stand and we can see how it works out. But I am bound to say that there is considerable apprehension among the various amenity societies as to whether the agreement goes far enough, and, naturally, we should all like to feel assured that it does.
I believe, generally speaking, that the Commission have done everything possible, within the limited resources that have been provided, to preserve and maintain the beauty and character of the areas which have been entrusted to them. I should like to make it quite clear that nobody who understands the question wants to regard these national parks as museum-pieces. We do not suggest that they have to be preserved for all time exactly as they are now. They are places where life goes on, where conditions change. They have to be dynamic, living places where development may be necessary—even, in the last resort, some form of industrial development. All we ask is that, whatever essential development takes place, it should not impair the beauty and the character of those particular areas of our lovely countryside. I believe that that is a perfectly reasonable request, and it is in harmony with the purposes of the National Parks Act.
I want now to say a word or two about the enjoyment of these national parks by the public. The Report says very little about what has been done to provide facilities to enable the general public to visit and enjoy these beautiful places. There is reference to the provision of a building for the supply of refreshment to replace an unsightly tea caravan; and there are a number of places where car-parking facilities have been provided. Pamphlets have been prepared setting out maxims for a Country Code, dealing, so far as possible, with unsightly advertisements, caravans and litter.
All these things are very good. They have been very helpful in providing information about the parks, places of historic interest, and other places as well. But little has been done about accommodation, and little has been said in the Report about accommodation. Again, I do not expect that these national narks should go into competition with Blackpool, or even with

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Southend-on-Sea, in the provision of accommodation. I do not want to provide large-scale facilities for coach-loads of people to descend on the Brecon Beacons, and I do not think they want to. People who enjoy the kind of facilities which are provided in the places I have mentioned would not dream of going to the national parks. But it was always contemplated that there would be a public that would want to go to the national parks—people who want that sort of holiday or recreation; and they are increasing in numbers. People want to get away from the bustle of urban life for a short time, and to enjoy the beauty and serenity of our lovely countryside.
Speaking for myself, as one who goes abroad quite a lot and enjoys beautiful scenery abroad, every time I come back to England I feel that we have something unique in the peacefulness and serenity of our countryside which other countries, with all their grandeur and majesty, simply have not got. That, I am glad to say, is being appreciated more and more; but the facilities for enjoying it do not exist. You can go for an hour or two and, with great difficulty, you can get a cup of tea—query lunch: am not sure. But if you want to stay for a weekend, the facilities are very limited indeed, especially when you have reached the age when you want a little comfort. There may be a hostel, but that is not everybody's "cup of tea". I should not want to spend a weekend in a hostel at my time of life: fifty years ago it was a different matter. I feel that something should be done for the kind of people who want this sort of peace, and who would find it in our national parks.
Before I leave national parks, I want to say one word about the handicaps from which the Commission are suffering. The main one, as your Lordships will not be surprised to hear, is the inadequacy of the funds at their disposal to carry out even the simplest of their duties. In the Report of the Hobhouse Committee, on which national park policy was based, it was suggested that a capital outlay of £9¼ million, spread over a period of about ten years, was necessary, with an annual expenditure of £750,000—that is, if we were to do the thing properly and do justice to these
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areas. The national parks have now been in existence for ten years, but, instead of providing £9¼ million and £750,000 a year, I understand that the parks have had, in all, £300,000, which represents about one penny per person per annum.
As far back as 1956, in their Seventh Report, the National Parks Commission made recommendations for the amendment of the National Parks Act which experience of its working had shown to be necessary to enable them to effectively carry out the objects which the Act had in mind. As might be expected, a number of those proposals related to the provision of adequate funds. I do not know what has happened to those proposals. I do not know whether they have been considered by the Government, whether they have been accepted or rejected. Some of them would require legislation. The Commission's latest Report gives us no inkling of the fate of their 1956 recommendations, but I gather that they have obtained no satisfaction about them, because they refer to the recommendations again in this Report.
This is not the way to treat our priceless heritage, and it is not the way to treat a Commission which was set up by the Government themselves. A priceless heritage such as we possess has to be properly fed, and nobody can suggest that the amount of money placed at the disposal of the Commission would enable any body of people to carry out their work in the way in which it should be carried out. In this connection, I should like to thank The Times—I do not often pay them compliments—for the helpful and sympathetic leading article on this subject which they published on March 27, headed "Melancholy Reading". They say very much what I have said about the way the Commission are being treated and about the lack of financial facilities.
I should like to say something about long-distance paths and footpaths. I realise that the setting up of these is proceeding, but it is proceeding much too slowly. It seems to be a spare-time occupation with local authorities, who appear to have very little snare time; and in the meantime many footpaths which are unknown to us are being lost to the public. They are being ploughed

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up and incorporated in the adjoining owner's land. This is nothing more or less than robbing the public of land which properly belongs to it. I hope that the Government will bring to the notice of local authorities the great importance of doing something about these footpaths. After all, as most of your Lordships realise, after the two-days debate we had on the Road Traffic Bill, it is no longer safe for the public to walk on public highways, and the only places they can walk on are our footpaths. We shall soon be forgetting how to walk, if we do not get more of them made available.
think that I have talked long enough about the ten years' life of the national parks. I would conclude by drawing the attention of your Lordships to one bright spot in the picture. That is the undimmed enthusiasm of the National Parks Commission, of the local planning committees and of the amenity societies in helping 'to keep the flag flying amidst the great difficulties I have described and the lack of sufficient encouragement on the part of the Government.
Our thanks are particularly due to the noble Lord, Lord Strang, the Chairman of the National Parks Commission, who has been Chairman for seven years—that is, for well over half the life of the national parks; to my noble friend Lord Lawson, who acted as Vice-Chairman for a number of years but unfortunately is no longer able to act, and to the present Vice-Chairman, Mrs. Dower, who is the widow of a very famous man in the history of the national parks. John Dower was one who, by his famous Report, by his description of what national parks ought to stand for, helped to bring the idea of national parks to life. We owe a debt of gratitude to all these people and to those who serve on the Commission and on the local planning committees. I hope that this debate may give them some hope and encouragement, and the assurance that the noble work they are doing is recognised and appreciated in many quarters and will not be forgotten. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
3.27 p.m.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, I am sure that everyone connected with the administration of the national parks, and many who visit and
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reside in national parks, will share your Lordships' gratitude to the noble Lora, Lord Silkin, for having introduced this Motion in your Lordships' House at this time. He has done so with such a degree of moderation, and such profound knowledge of the subject, that I find myself in agreement with almost all the comments he has made. Those of us who for many years have been connected with national parks and the planning movement remember the skill with which the noble Lord designed the provisions of the 1949 Act. Although there are many issues on which I do not agree with the noble Lord, I must say that on that occasion I admired the masterly fashion with which he reconciled many of those issues Which at the time appeared to be incapable of reconciliation.
I think that, on the whole, the 1949 Act has proved itself to be an effective instrument for the foundation of national parks in this country. Twelve years' experience of administration since the Act was passed has shown, however, that there is good reason for the Act to be overhauled at this time. For my part, I intervene in this debate as one of the Minister's nominated members for the North Yorkshire Moors National Park Committee. But, like many others, I find myself representing opposing interests on that Committee of the National Parks, having, in my case, acquired office in the Council for the Preservation of Rural England (in fact, I was a joint founder of the first branch in Yorkshire), in the Youth Hostels Association, ramblers' clubs and cycling clubs, as well as having the responsibility of ownership for a fairly large area in my own national park. At the same time, like others, I am closely connected with the Country Landowners' Association and the National Farmers' Union. So that one finds work on the Parks Committee a reconciliation of one's own diverse sympathies.
I do not want to take long in following the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, on what he has said in respect of afforestation and private or semi-private syndicates which are engaged in afforestation, especially in the Exmoor and Dartmoor areas. However, I should like to endorse what the noble Lord said in regard to the recent voluntary agreement which I understand (and I hope that the

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noble Lord who is to reply will confirm this) has received the approval of my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government; that is, a voluntary agreement between the National Parks Commission, the Forestry Commission, the Timber Growers' Association and the Country Landowners' Association, which I think should go far to remedy the great trouble that certain areas, and particularly those in national parks, have experienced recently over this matter.
I agree with the noble Lord that if it should be found over a number of years that this voluntary agreement—which will, in any case, need a far greater degree of co-operation between the Forestry Commission and the National Parks Commission, between the timber growers and private interests—were to fail, it would be wise for the Minister to adopt some method of control, so that those areas which have been traditionally accessible to the public, and which in many cases are some of the finest areas of landscape in our country, should be properly preserved.
It is true that where afforestation is conducted on virgin land, whether or not it be in national parks, haulage roads are made and are open to the public for the purposes of walking, cycling and riding. But in the case of the Forestry Commission such roads are normally closed to motor vehicles; and I think your Lordships will agree that that is a wise measure when, as the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has said, it becomes rarer and rarer for any one of us to have the opportunity of walking or cycling in areas which are not pregnated with petrol fumes and noise. In this respect it is interesting to note that, in the case of those large areas that have been recently planted by the Forestry Commission, and certain virgin ground, the great extent of access by the public to those areas is quite contrary to the expert opinion given by so many amenities societies against the planting of trees. I am told, on good authority, that in the Thetford area, in Snowdonia and over other areas the Forestry Commission are now becoming quite embarrassed by the desire of the public to go to those areas. Therefore, it appears that perhaps those who for many years, and before the Forestry Commission
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fully got into their stride with planting, have advocated that there should not be trees on wide open spaces may be expressing a view contrary to the desires of the ordinary rank and file and, perhaps, the younger generation of the public.
I should now like to deal with what the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, described as the second great principle of his Act—namely, the rights of the public in those parts of our countryside that are worthy of visits. I want to mention, in particular, Part V of the Act, relating to access agreements and orders. The number of voluntary agreements has been extremely small. In my own case, it has only been one. The fact is that the public have, in any event, long enjoyed de facto access to almost all this land, and owners see little point in making agreements which give official blessing to an accomplished fact.
It is true that an access agreement or order brings into effect the Second Schedule to the Act, and this lays down a code of behaviour for all who visit these areas. It is an excellent list and, so far as I know, has the support of all owners and farmers. But failure to observe the conditions enumerated in sub-paragraphs (a) to (a) of paragraph 1 of the Second Schedule (I will not read them to your Lordships, because it would take far too long) only causes the visitor to forfeit his right to remain on the land: it in no way prevents damage from being done. At least, without an access order or agreement. the perpetrators of damage can be sued for trespass. That is really only a theoretical consideration, however, for we all know that the law of trespass in these days is virtually a dead letter.
I lay great stress on this matter because, as your Lordships may recall, in May, 1959, the then Minister of Housing and Local Government said that national parks would fail in their purpose unless
"we carry with us those who have their homes and earn their daily bread within the national parks."
The same year the National Farmers' Union made a survey which showed that the inherent difficulties of farming inhospitable uplands were seriously aggravated by the behaviour of some visitors. That has, I regret to say, continued since

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the date of that publication in 1959. While education (and I know how much the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has personally attempted to do under the banner of education) should help to avoid damage through ignorance, it does not prevent the hooliganism that occurs to-day. Farmers are not the only people to suffer from wanton destruction, but it is far more common and more serious in agriculture than in any other industry. The National Farmers' Union urge most strongly that more strenuous efforts should be made to bring offenders to justice, and that those (I am glad to think that they are not the majority, although I think it is inappropriate to describe them as a small minority) found guilty of malicious damage should be severely dealt with. In the sum total of my experience, I cannot but agree with this view.
Therefore, I propose to the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, that the Government should bring in amending legislation to make the code of behaviour, as listed under the Second Schedule, apply to all areas in national parks, including enclosed grounds. I would also propose that misdemeanours as listed in that Schedule should have penalties attached to them. Appropriate penalties should be enforceable by a criminal court of law. Such proposals would, in my opinion, strengthen the hand of reputable bodies such as the Youth Hostels Association and the Ramblers' Association. Most unfortunately, the stigma which is attached to those who misbehave is also attached to those associations, and by and large I personally do not think it is justified.
The Act assumes that there are plenty of people in the remote upland areas who can detect and prevent misdemeanours, but owing to the financial structure of the Act there are not, and never will be, enough wardens to safeguard the interests of the farming community. Much of the work therefore falls on the voluntary wardens, and I think it is important that measures should he provided to give them special status and authority, and also that the national parks committees be authorised to make some reimbursement to such categories as gamekeepers and foresters who constantly do week-end warden work. It is. I think your Lordships will agree, grossly unjust for this expenditure
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to fall on private pockets when it is a service caused by the public and in their interest. This is a matter which goes to the heart of the subject the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, referred to in the latter part of his speech, and that was the lack of financial provision made by his own Act. The noble Lord quoted the fact that the whole of the national park concept costs less than one penny per person per annum. If we compared that with the very high rate, which I think is something like 11s. per person per week, for our defence bill, we may get into proportion the great difficulties under which the noble Lord, Lord Strang, and his Commission have had to operate.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has referred to a leader in The Times. I will now refer to a leader (which is something I do not often do) in the Guardian on April 1. The view was there advanced that much more could be achieved if the Commission had an annual sum of £75,000 from which grants could be made to the ten national parks committees. A ready reckoner can easily see that that is an average of only £7,500 over ten national parks. I think it is quite inadequate, and I would therefore propose that a sum of £150,000 per annum be allocated to the National Parks Commission. Even then it is only 20 per cent. of the figure the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, quoted of £750,000 advocated in the Hobhouse Committee Report. Local authorities in national parks are reluctant to demand money from residents to pay for the enjoyment of people who come largely from outside the area. For example, in my own area, after accounting for grants, the proportion of the county rate for national parks amounts to one-fifth of a penny in the pound, and this includes the cost of administration of two national parks in the Riding. No wonder we who advocate national parks are disappointed.
Another contentious point is that the grant from the Government towards the cost of providing certain buildings, equipment and services for national parks is 75 per cent.; the remainder falls on local ratepayers and, for the reason I have just given, is greatly resented. Also, the grant is too closely defined by the Act of Parliament. It would, I think, be much better for the public and the Treasury to have greater

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confidence in the National Parks Commission which they set up to operate on their behalf, and to allow them to judge what is worthy of assistance and what is not, on the basis of a block grant. If I may be permitted, I will take one example. In the Act public lavatories cannot be provided unless there is also a car park. This most certainly is not suited to our particular conditions in the North Riding of Yorkshire. One of the charms of our countryside is the miniature-like quality of its variety. In my own area remote valleys have a charm that would be entirely lost in, say, Switzerland or the Rockies. To preserve that charm I have myself provided the sum of £500 towards the cost of putting part of an electricity supply underground—a current supply to tenant farmers. This particular area is in the very heart of my national park, and perhaps more motor tourists visit it than any other park. It is wrong, in these days, for the amenity to be preserved only by the good will of a private individual.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has referred in strong terms to the need for the Electricity Authority to pay more respect to the representations made by the National Parks Commission and the local planning committees. My own committee has moved a resolution to this effect which has been for some time in the hands of the National Parks Commission. It is quite clear, from my experience of the last few years, that no responsible action will be taken in this respect until Her Majesty's Government give the necessary lead; and I hope this will be done very soon. I should add that some responsible authority should make a full investigation into why there is always a delay in supplying farmers with electricity, when efforts are made to take the best route rather than the shortest one. There are few things that throw national parks more into disrepute among farmers than that they are believed to hold up progress.
While national parks are expensive to the ratepayer and local authorities, they are also expensive to the property owners, and particularly to those owners who appreciate the intention and purpose of the National Parks Act. When these people propose to build new buildings or to repair old ones, they
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generally wish to use traditional materials, and to adopt high standards of design. This costs extra money, and unless they do it themselves it will not get done. As the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said, there is no grant to help the park planning committee to help the individual. In my own case I have had to replace farm buildings near Rievaulx Abbey, and as those buildings were adjacent to an ancient monument they had to be constructed in harmony with their neighbours. They were essential buildings to the economy of the farm and they had to be put up without endless delay, for otherwise the farm could not survive.
I give that example to show that the expense and responsibility of preserving our national parks falls heavily on owners as well as ratepayers. I doubt that these facts are sufficiently appreciated by some of the visitors to our national parks who, I fear, are still dreadfully ignorant of the life and economy of the countryside. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Barnburgh, is not here, as an ex-Minister of Agriculture, to bear me out in this contention. Perhaps the name "park" makes the urban dweller think that he can carouse and cavort as a Londoner does in Hyde Park or Battersea Park. Except for the custodians and cleaners in urban parks I can think of none who earn their living from them, but exactly the opposite is true of our national parks.
My aim is in no way intended to limit the flow of visitors or to diminish for them the attractions of our national park areas, but I feel most strongly that in these major respects existing policy is defective: first, finance; secondly, the control of behaviour, and thirdly, the prevention of damage. I hope I may be forgiven for speaking plainly on these subjects when I tell your Lordships that last year in my own national park and on my own land a fire was started by a hikers' party which covered six square miles of moorland and destroyed 3,700 acres of heather. This represents a loss to the farmers involved of over £12,000 in income over the next ten or twenty years, assuming the moor comes back to growth in that time. It may be 40 years before the moor is restored where it was most severely burned. Sheep stock valued at £7,000 has had to be taken

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off the heather, and a contribution to the economy of at least £1,000 per annum has been lost by the destruction of shooting rents. The noble Viscount, Lord Ingleby, whom I am glad to see in his seat this afternoon, lost 3,000 acres the previous year in the same national park, his neighbours lost a further 2,000 acres and six sheep farmers lost their main source of livelihood for a good number of years.
My experience, which has been a fairly close one, has been that the existing provisions are completely inadequate either to prevent or to control fires on heaths and moors. I would say that a fire plan must be devised in the national parks if the rural economy and forestry plantations are to be protected against the threat of fire. It is clear that the great dangers arise in periods of drought when visitors to highly inflammable areas light fires, throw away lighted cigarettes and leave bottles, all of which cause fires. In order to prevent fires starting and to control them when they have started, I would propose that there should be, in addition to the provisions that might exist, three further provisions: first, further power of closing inflammable areas during periods of drought; secondly, a Government grant for the ploughing of firebreaks; and thirdly, an adequately equipped rural fire lighting plan.
May I briefly deal with the first point? The existence of drought conditions in a particular area could be defined by the Meteorological Office or their regional offices. As we know, such periods of drought occur very seldom, say, only once in seven years, in this very uncertain British climate of ours, and the occasions, therefore, when the area would be closed would be infrequent and of short duration. I think, therefore, it would be totally unreasonable for others, provided they are well behaved and appreciate the national park areas, to say their rights would be gone. At such times roads, footpaths and tracks through dangerous and remote areas should be closed by local authorities except to essential motor traffic.
I know that this is a very bold recommendation to make for amending legislation, but there is a precedent for it, in that the provisions of the foot and mouth regulations do close areas, because if
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the spread of that disease is as fast as it was last year, the cost to the Exchequer is millions of pounds. Main highways could be kept open where it could be assumed that there would be appropriate supervision and easy access for fire brigades. For the benefit of the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, who is going to reply, I may say that I am well aware of Section 69 of Part V of the Act, which provides that any owner can apply to the Ministry of Agriculture in respect only of those areas that are subject to an access order. That is quite inappropriate because, as I have already informed the House, access orders are a dead letter. Secondly, would any of your Lordships have confidence in applying to the Ministry of Agriculture in a period of extreme drought of getting a quick answer before the fire had burned everything or the rain had come?
One word on the second point, the ploughing of firebreaks, and that is, of course, a tough and arduous task in difficult upland areas. It often requires special machinery and it takes a great deal of time and money. A Government grant under the Livestock Rearing Act should be made available to those who applied, as in the case of bracken grants. To make this safeguard satisfactory—and of course it applies only to those areas which are suitable for bulldozing—the sowing of grass and the spreading of lime should also be subject to the same grant.
May I give a little further explanation on the third point? A rural fire plan could limit the extent of fires which at the present time seem to be more often than not put out by rain. I suggest that urban fire-fighting vehicles are quite inefficient on rough ground, and more four-wheel drive vehicles are required. This, clearly, is an expensive item for an individual local authority, and therefore my proposal would be that such vehicles could be pooled by a combination of local authorities and ready to move on transporters. The provision of wardens, wireless communication and air reconnaissance are, I think, essential if the fire-fighting plan is to be given the priority that it requires, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Strang, the Chairman of the Commission, will he so good as to investigate the remarks that I have made and perhaps make recommendations in due course.

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My Lords, I have spoken for too long, but may I conclude by saying just one word on what I believe to be basically worth while in the concept of our national parks? To me it far transcends any Party political strife that there may be over such contentious subjects as the ownership of land. Our heritage includes in certain limited areas, still to-day, in these small isles, a natural beauty of landscape of such variety and interest that, as the noble Lord, Lord Siikin, said, it constitutes something very rare, even to those who have travelled far and wide throughout the world, as he has.
This heritage can be one of those indefinable forces that help to elevate man to realms of imagination and spiritual concept not ordinarily or easily found. Perhaps the remote and rural influences provide the opportunity for modern man to revitalise his feelings, to regain a sense of humility and to re-assess what is worth while and what is not. In such times as these, of rapid change and staggering development, it is perhaps all the more necessary for modern man to have the opportunity to escape from his highly urbanised environment and to find peace and serenity in nature's beauty. Thus he might learn to curb a sense of arrogance arising from all the scientific and materialistic achievement of the age. If this be true, I think your Lordships will agree that there can be few finer things than the concept of national parks in this small country. But, as in all great ideas, their implementation must be tempered with justice, so that those who choose to visit the parks from without, do not deprive those within of their daily bread and livelihood.

ESSEX RAIL CRASH
4.2 p.m.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, perhaps I may intervene at this moment, in order to make a statement, in similar terms to the one that has just been made by my right honourable friend in another place, about yesterday's rail crash.
At about 1.30 p.m., the 12.25 Fenchurch Street to Shoeburyness down passenger train, which was proceeding over the up line on account of prearranged engineering work on the down line, became derailed at a point about
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half a mile on the London side of Pitsea station. The engine turned over and the leading two coaches telescoped badly. The third and fourth coaches were derailed and damaged.
There were about 150 passengers in the train. I regret to say that two of them were killed and 42 injured. Last night 36 passengers were detained in hospital; 25 are still in hospital. I should like to extend my sympathy and, I am sure, the sympathy of the House to the relatives of those who died, and to wish the injured a speedy recovery.
The emergency services responded rapidly to calls for help. The House would, I know, wish me to thank them, and the many local people who went to the site, for the assistance they gave.
During the evening rush period, trains from Fenchurch Street for Pitsea and beyond were diverted via Tilbury, and an emergency bus service was introduced between Laindon and Pitsea. Normal services were operating this morning.
Colonel Robertson, an Inspecting Officer of Railways, went immediately to the site of the accident and will hold a formal inquiry.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I should like to thank the Minister for his statement and to associate my noble friends on this side of the House with the expression of sympathy by the Minister to the relatives of the killed and to the injured. We should like to echo his thanks to the local people who assisted, and to the emergency services, and I think we should congratulate the Transport Commission on their speedy return to normal services by this morning.
I think your Lordships will have been rather concerned to learn of the high casualty rate. Nearly one-third of the passengers on the train became casualties, most of them serious and still detained in hospital. It would also seem, from the statement, that the casualties were largely due to the fact that the two leading coaches telescoped badly. What we should like to know from Her Majesty's Government is whether they agree that this incident underlines the need for speeding up railway modernisation. Over many years we have heard of the danger, in a crash such as this, of using old-fashioned wooden coaches.

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Until the Transport Commission get on with and complete their programme of modernising railway stock, there will always be the danger that tragedies such as this will be repeated.
LORD REA: My Lords, noble Lords on these Benches would also like to be associated with the words spoken by the noble Earl in extending sympathy to those concerned. I wonder whether the noble Lord would bring to the attention of his right honourable friend one small matter which often crops up in circumstances like this—namely, that human nature is such that, when a great disaster like this occurs, out of the goodness of their hearts people run to help and incur considerable expenditure in regard to their own personal goods as well as effort. Many of them are often out of pocket as the result of being good Samaritans. Might I ask that that point of view be taken into account, and that they should be put in a suitable position to draw on any funds that may be available?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, naturally, I am grateful for what noble Lords have said. Of course, I cannot at the present moment comment in any way on this accident until the Inspector has held his inquiry. But I think I should be justified in saying that it is most unpleasantly ironic that the work in question for which this train was diverted was connected with the modernisation and electrification of this line. So far as the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord 'Rea is concerned, I will certainly draw the attention of my right honourable friend to what he has said.

NATIONAL PARKS
4.7 p.m.
Debate resumed.
LORD DALTON: My Lords, my excuse for intervening in this debate must be that I have for a long while been deeply interested in the problem of national parks, both here, in our little island, and elsewhere. Indeed, it would be true to say that for a long while now there have been national parks of great natural beauty and great variety of beauty in a large number of countries of the world. I think that the United States and Canada were the pioneers, but
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since their first national parks were designated and built up many other countries have followed their example. I have myself visited and enjoyed national parks in countries so diverse as Sweden, Queensland, Italy and Brazil, which shows, I think, the wide stretch of countries now interested in this problem.
There was serious talk, first of all, in the 1930's in this country about creating national parks here. One of the first of many Reports upon this matter was published in about 1933, by a Committee presided over by the late Lord Addison, whom many noble Lords will remember as having been Leader of this House. He carried out his duties with great distinction and general acceptance, and enjoyed a wide friendship, irrespective of Party affiliations, during the first Parliament after the war. Of course, since then many documents have been issued, and we now get regularly each year a Report from the National Parks Commission, to which several references have been made to-day.
I remember one occasion in the 1930's, when I was in the United States and had been speaking of the hopes of some of us that national parks might be created here. I remember being asked by the president of a university in the Middle West, after he had listened with patience to what I had to say: "Yes, that is all right, but nave you the real estate to do it?" That was a penetrating question, given, on the one hand, the great areas of the national parks in North America, and the other countries I have mentioned, and this little island. In reply to his question I sought to bluff my way through and admitted that, of course, our area was tiny compared with those of the United States, Canada and other countries we had in mind.
But, my Lords, I felt then, as I feel now, that, small though our little island is, it is yet possible, if the general framework of the law and administration surrounding the national parks is right, that, as has already been said this afternoon, we can create something unique, something very splendid here for the general benefit of the inhabitants and for the liberation of the noble Earl who spoke last and mentioned the liberation of the human mind in the beauty and solitude of the countryside. I believe that we

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have done so, but it must be admitted that there has been some disappointment, particularly among those who were most ardent supporters of national parks before the Act of 1949 was passed. They had great hopes, and as the years have gone by they have had a certain feeling of disappointment. I shall touch upon some of the reasons for that disappointment and inquire what we should do to make improvement in the general conduct of this branch of our affairs.
The noble Lord, Lord Strang, has done splendid work—and I gladly add my tribute to those paid by others—as Chairman for so long of the National Parks Commission; and he has had a hard row to hoe. He has done that in those intervals allowed to him while composing his important work, recently published, which I confess I have not yet read, but fully intend to read, laying out the historical permanence of British foreign policy over a long period. In addition to all that scholarly usage of his leisure he has found time for the daily handling of the problems of our national parks, and I am sure that we are all grateful to him. As has been said by my noble friend beside me, the noble Lord, Lord Strang, has had some splendid colleagues. My noble friend Lord Lawson, whose political life was much intertwined with mine, asks me to say that he is very sorry he cannot be here to-day to listen to, and take part in, our debate. The reason is his wife's ill-health, and I am sure the sympathy of us all will go out to both of them.
My noble friend Lord Lawson acted as Deputy Chairman of the National Parks Commission in the early years, and I remember that some of us thought it a good tactical move to have an ex-Secretary of State for War in that important position; because we felt it might be possible for him to chase away generals from certain areas of which I am thinking, in County Durham and Teesdale where, it seemed to us—and this was apprehended elsewhere—that they had requisitioned rather more land for use as artillery ranges than was reasonably justifiable. Indeed, there were rumours at that time, in that area on the Pennine Way, that there might be a clash between the troops and the embattled contingents of ramblers from
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Durham and Yorkshire. But all that was avoided, and I believe that the diplomatic gifts as well as the military experience of my noble friend Lord Lawson contributed both to the maintenance of order and good will and to the opening of the Pennine Way throughout its length, which was something we were then very keen should be done.
May I say a word or two now on some of the points which arise out of the work of the National Parks Commission? To some extent I shall be touching on points already made by previous speakers; but the first and primary point is, of course, finance. The National Parks Commission have been left practically destitute by the Treasury under successive Governments, and I agree very much with what was said in some detail by the noble Earl who preceded me. We thought (and I am one of those who were thinking, talking and planning how all this should be organised) that the National Parks Commission were a sufficiently important body, endowed with sufficiently important powers, to deserve to receive a direct annual grant from the Treasury, to be administered by the Chairman of the Commission and his colleagues in accordance with the requirements of the Act; and it was very disappointing to find that the Hobhouse Committee, to which the noble Earl referred in detail, fully agreed about not naming any special figure. The figure need not be a large one but a direct annual grant from the Treasury would help a great deal.
I am quite sure that, so long as such a grant is lacking, the framework at the foundation will not be right. Therefore I hope that before long the present Minister of Housing and Local Government who, as we have heard, will he receiving many recommendations, will settle this point, in particular, so that the noble Lord, Lord Strang, and his successors will have something to distribute, at their discretion and, as the noble Earl suggested, between different national park areas. I think this is a very important though essentially a simple matter. I once threw out a hint which has occasionally troubled the waters since. In my Budget speech of 1946, when I was Chancellor of the Exchequer (though we had no national parks at that time, for it was more than three years before the Act was passed),

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spoke well of national parks, as I have done on other occasions. I threw out a hint (my idea would have required further legislation, which in The result was not forthcoming) that some financial assistance might be given from the National Land Fund, which was set up in that year, to national parks. I had in mind a certain once-for-all contribution of a capital nature that might probably be made. But all that, I regret to say, came to nothing. Although enthusiasts of national parks in another place, and perhaps here too, have from from time to time returned to that charge, I regret to say that neither from that source nor from any other so far have national parks been reasonably financed. This is so simple a point that I hope very much that this defect may soon be remedied.
I wish now to say a word about the long-distance routes. When I was younger I used to he what is now called a keen "hiker". I like walking considerable distances in beautiful country and in agreeable company, and I was very keen on this concept of the long-distance routes. They began, as your Lordships know, with the Pennine Way, which happened to run right through the constituency I then had the honour to represent, and also through a very beautiful area full of wild fell country and many lovely waterfalls and other natural beauties. It is a matter of regret—and those are the actual words of the Commission themselves, and I think a very moderate form of words—that those routes are not yet completely open.
After the approval, if I remember the figure rightly, of some seven proposed long-distance routes (it was six or seven, or something of that order), which meant a great deal of hard work for the Commission and in surveying on the spot, even now, more than ten years after this work began, none of these long-distance routes is yet completely open to walkers or to horsemen in these beautiful areas. I understand that the reason for this very slow advance is simple: it is that there are no effective powers vested in the Commission for compulsory purchase, where necessary, of rights of way or rights of access at given points along these routes where access and rights of way do not now exist.
I understand that there is a lot of detail that could be talked about here—
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I am not going to talk about it—concerning the relative powers of different local authorities and whether the Commission should have such powers vested in them, or whether they should be distributed among various local authorities. On that matter I do not express an opinion. I merely say that the remedy should be very simple, and it can be covered, I think, by the general formula used just now: there should be effective powers of compulsory purchase operated under the authority of the Commission in all cases where we still have not cleared the road, whether along the Pennine Way or Offa's Dyke or any of these long-distance routes. I am sure that there are great numbers of the younger and healthier and fitter citizens of this country who would appreciate very much the opportunity of extending their journeys by foot or on horseback—because these routes are for riders on horseback, too—along the bridle paths and quiet ways and well away from roads heavily crowded with motor and other vehicles. I hone that here, too, early action can be taken to amend the law in this regard and give the Commission power to carry out what was always regarded as a central and essential part of their mandate.
It is sometimes said—indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Strang, himself said it in a speech which was quite properly publicised in the Report of the Commission—that there is perhaps a certain conflict in the Act setting up the Commission: two conflicting aims. It is often said that the duty of the Commission is, on the one hand, to preserve and enhance natural beauty, and, on the other, to provide and improve facilities for public enjoyment of the parks. I do not myself believe that there is any serious or deep conflict there. I think we can achieve both aims by an application of reasonable give and take and, where necessary, consultation. I will touch upon that point again in a moment.
I will say, first, a word (this point has been mentioned before) about the first aim: the preservation and enhancement of natural beauty. I am glad to hear it said—and I have no reason to doubt the truth of what is said—that there is here no real conflict between the Forestry Commission, of which I have been for many years a strong supporter, and others. I think that the Forestry Commission have done a grand job which was never done

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until they were set up, but I will not develop that point now, although on another occasion I may be tempted to. But there has, I think, occasionally been a little potential between the Forestry Commission and those associated with the open air societies and the national parks. There has been a certain emotion in the background about cone-bearing trees: and I will return to that in a moment.
I am very glad to hear, however, that, in terms of practical politics now (my noble friend said so and I think that the noble Earl also repeated it), consultation proceeds agreeably between the various interests concerned: the park authorities, whether the central Parks Commission or the planning authorities for particular parks, with the Forestry Commission and also with timber growers and the Landowners' Association. There are three or four bodies concerned. I am delighted to hear that these bodies are getting on well together and can settle agreeably any disputes that arise with regard to the general problem of the preservation and enhancement of natural beauty, with particular reference to all this debatable afforestation.
I will say a word or two, but not more, about afforestation. I am a great devotee of afforestation, and I often recall the great saying of Robert Louis Stevenson, that trees are the most civil society. In many moods and in many places that great thought is borne in upon me. I personally have had great pleasure through my life in passing very happy hours and days among beautiful woodlands and trees, both in this country and overseas. But Robert Louis Stevenson did not discriminate. He said, "trees" and he made no qualification or classification. Trees, he said, are the most civil society. He did not say, "Trees other than whatever it may he you are suspicious of when you see it growing"; he did not say, "All trees other than conifers."
I am always recalling that when I was a little boy I learnt that to plant a tree and, still more, to care for it when you have planted it, was a good deed which would leave your heritage better than when you found it. I learnt that then and I have believed it ever since, and I think it is still true. We in this coun
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try have, as is well known, a smaller percentage of our national area under trees of any kind than has any other country in Europe—barely 6 per cent., if I remember the figure aright—and I am very anxious, as a matter of national policy and national interest, to see the afforestation of this country carried further, with appropriate regard being had to soils and other matters, to what will grow and what will not, and so on. I applaud very much the work of the Forestry Commission. The noble Earl, Lord Radnor, is carrying on the splendid work begun by his predecessor, whom I knew well, the late Lord Robinson, previously Sir Roy Robinson; and both these men's names will live in history and, in particular, in the history of the countryside.
I confess that I find much enjoyment in planning short holidays, as I have often done, in some of the Forestry Commission's State forests, and enjoying peace there and learning from the foresters and others and from the local inhabitants. I get as much pleasure from a short holiday of that kind as from any other. I am sure that we ought to continue to give our support to the policy of steadily planting trees, of appropriate kinds, and that, given the appropriate conditions in this country, it should be a long-term programme.
The only other point I wish to make in this context has a bearing on the private-enterprise afforestation projects, in some of the national parks. If we read, as I regularly do, the Annual Reports of the Forestry Commission, we find that they have programmes set before them, hut that very often those programmes are eroded as the years go on. A great programme for post-war forestry was drawn up by another noble Lord who will be remembered by your Lordships—Lord Jowitt. We gradually slid away from the high targets he set up, however, and the targets for new planting are now much lower. Even so, they are not reached. I have been distressed to read year after year in the Reports of the Forestry Commission how, in the preceding year, due to the difficulty of acquiring sufficient land, the planting fell short of the target they had set themselves.
We have much debate about the possible planting by (as some would present

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it) a somewhat sinister form of private enterprise. No names are mentioned, and I put no questions to anyone who might know. But, on the one hand, there is this great deficiency, which the Forestry Commission's Report shows, because they have not been able to acquire enough land to plant up to their programme; and, on the other hand, there is this unnamed body of persons pursuing the aims of private enterprise anxious to plant trees in considerable quantity within certain national parks, and do doubt elsewhere, too.
I do not think that this matter should be resolved by putting the planting of any tree anywhere under the control of some gentleman in Whitehall, which is what some zealots propose: that, in order to plant a tree, you must have a permit from some gentleman in some department, if not right in Whitehall, at any rate in the bureaucracy of the National Parks Commission or their local committees. I frankly confess that I do not like that proposal; and, even though it may be contrary to the general trend of my thought and observations, through a fairly long political life now, I have thought that perhaps, in this matter, we ought not so much to shudder at the thought of more private enterprise but rather to ask them in. We should try to encourage the Forestry Commission and the somewhat sinister figures referred to as "private enterprise"—those who wish to plant in the parks—to consult together to produce a plan and carry it out, and if necessary, help them with some financial provision.
I am not one of those who have an ingrained dislike for conifer trees. I am not a botanist, either, in any professional sense, so I will not embark upon any botanical digression. I will say merely that I have a great love of trees in general, and I have a great love for a number of the coniferous species. The Scotch pine is surely one of the lovely trees which adorn some of our most beautiful landscape; and the cedar. These are coniferous trees, but how beautiful they are! It would indeed be wonderful if we had more cedar and a wider range of cedar where there was a suitable soil, so that they could grow in this country as they do in North Africa and elsewhere.
My Lords, I am, frankly, opposed to the "anti-conifer brigade", and in this
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particular respect I am not at all unwilling that private enterprise should have a go". After all, looking back over history, one reason why we have such a poor percentage of our area under trees or woodlands of any kind, or timber of any kind, is because in the past a lot of private enterprise must have been a bit slow. Though many landowners have treated their woodlands as a great treasure, yet there has been too little awareness of the need to grow a larger proportion of our timber in this country. That has shown itself from time to time in our heavy import bills, and it has been a contributor to the trouble about the balance of payments. When I read the Budget speech yesterday, and the journalists who are all talking about the balance of payments, it took me back to the early post-war years—and we have not yet pulled out of that difficulty. But one way of gradually pulling out of it, of course, is to plant more trees and take care of them; to grow a larger proportion of our timber here.
I will not pursue that thought further. I will say merely that I do not take at all kindly to suggestions that the planting of trees should be made, almost, a criminal offence—perhaps stopping a little short of that, but at any rate saying that it must not be done except with the permission of some second or third Treasury official in some Whitehall office or, as I have said, somebody associated with the bureaucracy building up under Lord Strang; an admirable organiser of bureaucracy though no doubt he is, and as he learned to be during many years at the Foreign Office. I should much prefer some means by which there could be frank consultation between the Forestry Commission and the leaders of private enterprise who wish to plant on Exmoor and Dartmoor. I love both areas. I love Dartmoor more, because I know it better. I cannot think that some agreeable conifers would seriously ruin even the area that I know and love best. But this is a case, surely, not for more regulations, but for friendly consultation between the various parties concerned; and I hope that that may continue. I say bluntly that I hope the Minister of Housing and Local Government will refuse any proposal made to him simply to put the planting of trees under planning control.

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I am anxious not to speak too long, but I want to say a word, by way of conclusion, about the second of the aims. I have said that I do not think that there is any serious clash here between the two aims—the preservation and enhancement of national beauty, on the one hand, and increasing facilities for enjoyment, on the other. I have been speaking so far about the first aim, or about the problems connected with it, but now I wish to say a word or two about improving and increasing the facilities.
I have mentioned seeing national parks in operation in various countries abroad—in the Alps, for instance; or in Sweden, where they do this kind of thing very well. The Swedish Touring Club is a wonderful agency. We do not want a large number of big hotels built in and around our national parks, but the Swedes, who have a great gift for practical, detailed achievement, and a great ability to combine utility with duty, construct delightful little wooden chalet hostels and smaller wooden structures—more like those which the Italians call "refuges"—which we find in the Alps and other parts of Europe. But we in this country have almost nothing of this kind.
I should have hoped that the Commission (of course they have not been given the money to do it; and that point has been touched on already), when they were appointed, would have made a programme over the years for erecting, particularly at special beauty spots and striking outlooks throughout the national parks, small wooden structures of this kind, in which there would be bunks, perhaps a supply of fuel—as I remember in Sweden, in particular—and some simple provisions, so that one can pass the night or spend several days of peaceful rest amid beautiful surroundings. But nothing of this sort has been attempted at all, and I should like to urge upon the Commission that they should give the matter further thought (although no doubt they have thought about it from time to time), and see whether we cannot in this Island adopt something of the kind of a simple provision for our people, our relatively poor people, our young people, people who are physically active and do not want to spend large sums on a holiday, something relatively cheap yet attractive and clean, set amid beautiful
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scenery. Perhaps we could make some experiments there.
I believe that in the Cairngorms, which I also enjoy visiting, there has lately been a forward move. Of course, the Scots will not have national parks. My noble friend Lord Silkin touched on the point that there are none in Scotland. I remember debates in another place when this Act was going through, and one of my grandiloquent friends from Scotland rose and said: "We want none of your national parks in Scotland. All Scotland is one great national park". But that is rhetoric, not fact, I fear. I do not suggest that we should now force down Scottish throats an institution which they still do not want, but in the Cairngorms, though the National Parks Commission have no jurisdication over it, can be found an admirable development of ski-ing, holidaying, and so on. That I welcome. I think there are the beginnings of the provision of some simple accommodation of the kind to which I have been referring.
I venture to think that this increasing improvement in facilities for enjoyment of our countryside is the most important task remaining before the National Parks Commission in the coming year. It is not for anyone who has not gone deeply into the details to try to play the architect or the detailed planner, but we have not foreseen, during the period of the life of our national parks, the tremendous increase, both in the demand for camping facilities for young and active people and in caravanning. Both of these, of course, need some guidance and control, and that is one of the problems which the Parks Commission naturally cannot escape. But there has been, during these ten years of the lifetime of British national parks, a tremendous upspringing of the camping and the caravanning habit, and an increasing number of people (no doubt the statistics are somewhere available) in what is now usually called the "middle income groups"—people neither very rich nor very poor—enjoy having a holiday where camping facilities are provided, and often travel around in a caravan which they either own or have hired. That, I am sure, can all be fitted into our general national pattern of behaviour, and it is all to the good.
One final bouquet for my friends the Forestry Commission. They have given

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an admirable lead in their national forest parks, a number of which I have visited, and no doubt other noble Lords have clone the same. There they have not attempted anything ambitious but have provided camping facilities, simple facilities for cooking, and so on. I think in particular of Argyll. They have an admirable national forest park in Argyll, and another at Lewisburn, which is in the great Border forest in the North East—the forest that overspills the Border into Scotland, and which is the largest piece of continuous forest in these Islands, near Kielder and Hexham. There I saw great numbers of people enjoying the simple facilities provided—camping facilities, simple cooking facilities, some simple sanitary conveniences, and so on. For this I pay great tribute to the Forestry Commission, and I hope that their work will spread and continue; and I am sure that the National Parks Commission, from what has been said, will co-operate with them along this line of advancement.
This is my final word. The big thing which remains when smaller points have been considered, and which the Parks Commission must tackle in the days to come, is how to make it possible for much larger numbers of our people than ever before—for the whole nation, potentially—to enjoy out-of-doors holidays in beautiful surroundings, with simple and reasonably cheap facilities. This belongs to the second of the alternative aims. For my part, if I had to choose—I do not think we do have to choose t I think we can reach both—I think I should say that most important of all is to make available to the whole nation opportunities to enjoy the beauties of our country, and to enjoy them, in particular, within the designated national parks, the outstanding areas administered by the National Parks Commission.
4.47 p.m.
LORD DYNEVOR: My Lords, undoubtedly we owe a great debt of gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for having introduced this debate and given your Lordships the opportunity of reviewing the work of the national parks system after an interval of some ten years. We have listened to three remarkable speeches on the subject, clearly reasoned and closely thought out. I hope, in consequence of
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that, that I can confine my remarks to a few practical suggestions, or, rather, practical questions which arise out of the administration and existence of national parks. However, I do not know that I can always provide the answers to the questions.
I and myself, if I may say so in passing, for once in my life closely drawn to the noble Lord, Lord Dalton, in the lyrical descriptions which he gave of our beautiful countryside, and I thank him for them. I could not help reflecting that perhaps as he walked through his beautiful forests and high ground he spared a kindly thought for the wicked landowners who planted the trees in the past and who made this beautiful England of ours possible. It is a surprising thought that, apart from the mountains and moorland of our country, England, Wales, and Scotland, if you like, in the Lowland areas, are artificial. The natural state of the country is forest. The whole of the Sussex Weald was forest. It is the hand of man that has produced the countryside which we see to-day—the grazing, the fencing, the planting of trees, and so on. Therefore it is of vital importance that we continue that good work and preserve its natural beauty—in the sense that it is natural—the trees, the flowers and the grass. But, as I say, the layout is entirely the hand of man, aided by the water-courses and rivers with which this Island, happily, is closely interspersed.
It seems to me that, throughout this valuable debate, we are faced with one inescapable fact, and that is that this Island is too small for the population that it is trying to carry. In order to carry a population which, very naturally, wishes to escape from bricks and mortar to the beauties of the countryside, it has obviously been the right policy to try to set aside and preserve certain areas by which this may be achieved. I think we should get this clearly in our minds: that there are two sorts of countryside in a national park. One is mountain and moorland and the other is the cultivated land which is included in the designated national park. The question of the planting of trees has already been clearly dealt with and I have no doubt that other noble Lords will touch on it. I understand that the noble Earl behind me is going to be able to announce details of some settlement of the programme for

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forestry. Therefore I do not want to say more than this: that to-day the Forestry Commissioners are extremely helpful and co-operative in their attitude. I do not want to rub any old sores, but I would say that there is a very different attitude from that which existed originally, before the war, when the Commissioners were apt to be a bit autocratic and use their powers of acquisition rather ruthlessly. I remember that in two cases public inquiries overrode their decisions. I instance this only to show what can be done by the Chairman of such a body adopting a different method and being ready to co-operate, so that the Forestry Commissioners are able to-day to enjoy all the pleasant things said about them
Some years ago, I had the honour of sitting on a Committee dealing with home-grown timber, which was known as the Watson Committee. I remember that it came up that the Forestry Commissioners were going to get stuck for lack of planting land. The noble Lord has mentioned that, and also the fact that programmes become eroded as time goes on. That is perfectly true. To look forward as regards the planting of trees and decide what sort should be planted is one of the hardest tasks in the world, because nobody can tell what sort of timber will be required a hundred years from now—provided nobody has let off the hydrogen bomb and there are still people in this country. It reminds me of the story of the admiral who went about sticking acorns into hedgerows, so that there should always be enough oak wood to build the kind of ships that were used in Nelson's day. Obviously, his objective has long ago disappeared, and nowadays other timbers are more useful to industry and trade, and to furniture making.
I want to focus my remarks on a problem that is hard to deal with: that is, the preservation of national parks, once they have been made, from the pressure of industry. The national parks have to meet the need for houses and hostel accommodation, which perhaps are natural corollaries of a national park, but there may come a time when there is a tremendous pressure to allow an erosion. The noble Earl, Lord Fever-sham, has talked a great deal about Yorkshire. Perhaps I may illustrate my
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point by talking about South Wales, where this very fact has had to be faced in a big way, at the Pembrokeshire Coast National Park. It was created "for all time for the enjoyment of the people", in the splendid words of the dedication, but it was not long before the serious unemployment situation in Pembroke Dock and Milford Haven led Her Majesty's Government to feel that they had to do something. The national average of unemployment today is about 3 per cent., but locally it is 11 per cent., which is a very considerable figure in a comparatively small location.
I do not know what other reasons induced Her Majesty's Government to decide to develop the port of Milford Haven. The way it was done was to induce two big oil companies, Esso and B.P., to come there. A short time after the national park was created, Esso have built a huge oil refinery and B.P. have opened a discharge terminal on the other shore to pump oil to their refinery at Swansea. They are both in existence. Indeed, tomorrow B.P. have arranged for the official opening of their ocean terminal. It might be said that this is a dreadful thing to do in a national park; but people cannot live on air and scenery. However regretfully one has to say it, there may be times when the national interest must have precedence over the national park.
But what can be done and has been done in this connection is for the industrial undertaking to landscape their plant and try to mould the buildings into the folds of the ground, so that when one goes a little way away, one does not see it too much, although one cannot help seeing the tall chimneys. The plan is to make industrial development as attractive as it possibly can be. If one flies over the Pembrokeshire Coast National Park, as I have done on several occasions, one sees that the area taken by these industrial developments is remarkably small in relation to the great expanse of country in the neighbourhood.
Sometimes we have to face the fact that a national park may be subject to erosion. This leads me to say that it means interference with the long-distance footpaths which have always been a feature of the South Wales area. The compulsory purchase of footpaths is a difficult weapon to use. It is so easy

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to think that one can take this field and that field along the coast and acquire them compulsorily. I am not going to say that it can never be done and that it would be wrong to do so, to get the final link after a great deal of the rest has been acquired by negotiation, but I think that much can be done by persisting in negotiation. When the Guildford by-pass was made, about 1935, the Surrey County Council did a splendid job in negotiating, with all the landowners with frontage to the road, an agreement that the road should not be built on. They had the example of the Kingston by-pass in front of them. The decision that the road should remain a country road was achieved entirely by voluntary agreement. Of course, filling stations were allowed now and again. Motorists do not care how lovely a road is, if their car runs dry and they cannot get petrol. Filling stations are one of the exceptions that must be allowed.
I am naturally against too much planning control, but in this crowded island I think we have to accept a reasonable planning control, since we certainly should not want to see the whole coast, from Northumberland round the South and up the West, entirely fined with bungalows. I think that the most rigid individualist to-day must willingly accept some form of control, but I would rather that negotiations were done voluntarily and compulsory purchase were used only in the last resort.
The noble Lord opposite referred to the caravan problem, which is a burning one in Pembrokeshire. I read in the Report that the county council have an "enforcement officer". I am not quite certain what he enforces or what 'he has power to enforce. Perhaps I ought to know where he fits into the set-up of the national park, but I am afraid I do not. I do not want to detain your Lordships any longer, other than to bring more forcibly to your attention the main point of my speech: that, however much we may dislike it, we have in certain circumstances to allow the spoilation of the national parks where the national interest is more overriding.
5.0 p.m.
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: My Lords, I should like heartily to endorse the speech to which we have just listened from the noble Lord, in which he has
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pointed out the extreme difficulty of dividing up what little land we have left in a small island that is becoming more and more overcrowded. In the days of Elizabeth I the population was something like 6 million. To-day, I understand, it is around 52 million; and we have a somewhat desperate situation, because the population is growing every day. The free space that we have to play with becoming less and less, and on every side there is more and more pressure from those trying to obtain the land which we have left.
It is curious how differently different people look at the same piece of land. Take an area that includes some fields and trees. The farmer has one way of looking at it: he thinks of the cattle that might graze on the green grass, or the oats that may come up if he ploughs it. The sportsman thinks of the land under roots, with partridges nestling there. There is the military commander, who envisages it as an addition to his tank ground or artillery range: and we have the educationist who thinks that the land is near enough to his school and could be made into football grounds or cricket pitches. All these people—and, if it is near a town, especially the builders, who wish to put up factories or develop a housing estate—have tremendous support and big financial interests behind them. They can plead their cause and economic necessity. But the man who has little support is the man who works all day in his office or in his business. All he wants, as the noble Lord has just said, is to go out and enjoy the countryside; to get away from bricks and mortar and enjoy the fields: he wants to see the bluebells pushing up, the oak trees unfolding their new leaves, to sit under a tree or go for a walk through the lovely countryside.
LORD DYNEVOR: My Lords, would the noble Earl leave the bluebells where they are?
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: I heartily agree with the noble Lord; I thought I said that people want to look at the bluebells, not to pick them. That is the sort of person who has no trade union and no big support and the one whom I think we must try to satisfy.
In this context the need for the national park becomes clearer and clearer. If we are to keep some of the

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rural country of England as it is, the only way to do it is to designate areas and, so far as possible, maintain them in their natural organic life. We have green belts and we have national parks. But, unfortunately, as the noble Lord has said, they are apt to be encroached upon. That is a matter of high policy, and there are occasions when we must submit to large areas of land, which we should like to keep as they are, being taken for industrial development. But I think we must try to limit that to the bare necessity and keep out the spreading of industrial development in areas of great national beauty. It is so easy to take a little here and a little there. We see this even in places like Richmond Park and Hyde Park, where pieces are gradually being taken out which will certainly never be put back again.
What I really wish to speak about and to promote this afternoon is the idea which was developed originally by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in his speech, of adding a national park nearer to London. It is true that most of the designated parks are a long way from London and we need an area nearer to this large centre of population. I suggest that the area that should have been, and should be, designated is that around the New Forest and the Solent. I should perhaps declare an interest here, as I have done once before: that I am the president of the Solent Protection Society. We are most anxious to get this particular area, which includes the New Forest and runs across the South Coast of England towards Portsmouth, designated as a national park. Of course there is already a certain protection; there is the green belt in part of this area, and the New Forest is protected, to a certain extent. However, we should like to see a much stronger and more formidable protection against encroachment in the area.
It has always struck me how lucky we have been to have the New Forest, which is an area (I daresay most of your Lordships know it well) that has changed very little since the day of William Rufus and his unhappy hunting party. There are large open areas of moorland and other beautiful areas of woodland. It has a great quantity of wild life—even the red deer still roam about there. At the same time, it is an area much
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frequented by holiday makers, campers and people who like nature and wild life. To my mind, it would be a thousand pities if it was festooned with pylons and electric cables or was taken bit by bit for industrial development.
When you get out of the New Forest and go into the country, there you come to the very beautiful landscape around the Solent. That is an area that we very much want to keep as it is. For one thing, it is the sailorman's or the yachtsman's paradise. That, I would stress, is no longer a rich man's sport, but the sport of thousands of people who have boats from the size of the Clerks' Table up to your Lordships' Chamber, and who go out every week-end, some having come clown even from the Midlands or from London: in fact, sailing is becoming one of the great new national sports, and a very healthy and pleasurable one it is. The Solent is probably the only really sheltered and adequate water in England, certainly in the South of England, where this sport can be indulged with all the amenities it needs.
This area has been threatened with various projects. We have been threatened on the North side of Southampton Water with a big oil refinery; we were threatened at Newtown, in the Isle of Wight, with a gigantic atomic power station, which I believe would have been about three times the size of Winchester Cathedral, with a chimney stack 600 feet high; and many other projects have been mooted. We feel that it would be disastrous to allow a development such as that, with all the subsequent development that goes with it: because if you have a big power station, you must have houses for the people who work there, schools for their children, and shopping facilities; more industry follows, and little by little you would get this beautiful stretch of water going up the Solent and round that part turning into a Merseyside or a Birkenhead.
As the noble Lord who has just spoken said, we must not try to keep back useful development. For instance, we do not for one moment want to hinder electricity being brought to the South, where it is badly needed. But what we want to do, as has been said, is to try to adapt the development so that it fits in with the countryside and does not fight against it. We do not want to choose a big, open,

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rather beautiful space upon which to erect gigantic chimneys if they can be put somewhere else where they are not visible. We want to try to preserve this area, which gives tremendous scope for holidaymakers who come to bathe, swim, hike and do all the things that holidaymakers do. Therefore, I want to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they would consider making the area, including the North coast of the Isle of Wight and both sides of the Solent right through to the New Forest, into a national park.
I know there are technical difficulties about this. One difficulty is the fact that this area takes in a large section of water which is not provided for in the Act. But if amending legislation is needed, I wonder whether Her Majesty's Government would be sympathetic to this being initiated? I am sure that some way could be found to make this into a national park if we really wanted to. I would make a tentative suggestion—though I am sure there are many better ones—that instead of making one park, we should make two or three parks: one on the North side of the Isle of Wight, another on the North-East side of the Solent, arid another on the West including the Solent and New Forest. Surely, that would get over the difficulty if estuarial waters cannot be made into a park. I should be grateful if Her Majesty's Government would consider that matter, if they could let us know what their attitude would be, and what possibilities we have of safeguarding this magnificent area of natural beauty by making it into one of our national parks.
5.12 p.m.
THE EARL OF BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: My Lords, in adding my words of gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for the way in which he moved his Motion, and for moving it, I was interested, as a landowner in the Chilterns, to learn from him that that area has been designated as an area of outstanding natural beauty. I understood that it was under consideration, but I now understand (if I misunderstood the noble Lord I apologise) that it has been confirmed.
I am one of the few speakers who has nothing to do with a national park, but I rise to develop one point made by the
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noble Lord with regard to the question of afforestation in national parks. This is certainly a much wider question than that of Dartmoor and Exmoor: it will obviously cover other areas as well. Reference has already been made to the agreement which has been reached, but perhaps I might inform the House as to the way in which it came about. Questions were raised by Members in another place, and at the same time approaches were made by the Minister to the Country Landowners' Association and the Timber Growers' Organisation to consider proposals which have been made by the Forestry Commission and the National Parks Commission for the setting up of a voluntary scheme of consultation between landowners and the park planning authorities where large-scale afforestation was proposed. An agreement has been reached, and the park planning authorities have been informed by the National Parks Commission. The Deputy President of the Country Landowners' Association has written letters to Branch Chairmen of the Association urging branch representatives to discuss with park planning authorities the ways and means by which consultation between landowners and these authorities could best be achieved.
I will refer to the agreement again a little later on, but I should like now to inform the House that any further remarks I make must be coloured by one fact. Like the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, I sit on the Executive Committee of the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, and I have the authority of the Chairman, Mr. Langley Taylor, to tell the House that he hopes to bring about meetings between the various bodies concerned to discuss this whole question of the planning of forestry in the national parks and the agreement which has been reached, because he feels that it must be made to work; and so do I. There has been a great deal of bickering about it, and he is as anxious as a large number of people are that this bickering should stop.
About the same time as the agreement was reached a few months ago, there was published a manifesto called The Case for Control of Afforestation of Open Land in National Parks, presented by the Standing Committee on National Parks

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of the Councils of the Preservation of Rural England and Wales and the Joint Action Group for the Protection of Dartmoor and Exmoor. It is fair to say that this document had been prepared without the knowledge of this agreement but was published just after the agreement had been made. When they knew of this agreement they included an additional note stating that, while sharing the hope expressed by the Minister of Housing and Local Government that the voluntary scheme would yield useful results, they had little confidence in its effectiveness and could not regard it as in any way an adequate substitute for the submission of such afforestation proposals in national parks to formal planning control. I may add that I was delighted to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Dalton, that he is against enforced planning in the national parks, as I understood it, and I too was a little surprised that he did not make more mention than he did of the work of private forestry everywhere.
I wish to take up one or two points in this Manifesto in connection with a letter written by the Economic Forestry Group to this Joint Committee, in answer to points in this Manifesto. The first point I want to take up is on page 8 of the Manifesto, where they say:
"We are of the unanimous opinion that the law must be amended to give the authorities statutory powers to control the afforestation of open land in the National Parks."
In large capital letters on page 9, the Manifesto says:
"On the grounds of … agriculture, recreation, and adventure training, natural history, amenity and archæology … the case is overwhelming."
They forgot, perhaps, that one of the possible forms of adventure is the training in planting and felling of trees.
In connection with that, I should like, if I may, to quote from a speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, on July 19, 1949, in another place, when he was conducting the Bill through the House. He said—and I quote from column 1285 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of another place:
"What we want to emphasise is that the authorities, in planning the area, should have regard to the needs of agriculture and forestry. Those are the outstanding and dominating questions which really determine the character of the National Parks, and to incorporate a
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great many other forms of activity would simply make the whole thing meaningless. I hope that, while I wish to repeat what I said in the Committee that the intention is to maintain the general character of the National Park areas, it is to be a living community and the life of the area will go on. Nevertheless, agriculture and forestry will always be the dominating forms of activity, and I think it right that this, and this alone, should be emphasised."
I gave notice to the noble Lord that I was going to quote this passage, and he was good enough to tell me that he still stands to-day by those words.
My Lords, why the noble Lord, Lord Dalton, was afraid to mention one of the bodies that has purchased quite a large amount of ground in the national parks in the South West I do not quite know; because I am quoting from some notes which the Economic Forestry Group, who are the purchasers, returned to the Council for the Preservation of Rural England in reply to points in the manifesto. I am going to refer to two of them. On page 7 the Manifesto states that:
"Assuming … forests were of such national importance as to outweigh the considerations of amenity, natural history archaeology, out-of-doors activity, tourism and agriculture—where would they be sited?"
The comment to that is:
"The forests really are of national importance, and, properly planned, they can contribute to and not detract from the other interests".
The other point I wish to make is the final comment in that note, where they state:
"It must be emphasised; (1) That there is unemployment problem in the South-West. (2) That Forestry can play a major part in bringing back life and vitality to some of the depressed areas. (3) That the forests must be planned, in any one area, of adequate size to justify full-scale modern industry in support. (4) That forestry is intended as one of the dominant forms of activity in the National Parks. (5) That forestry can be integrated effectively with agriculture to the advantage of both industries: it can add to the amenity, facilities for recreation and adventure training and studies of natural history. All of this is completely ignored in the Manifesto, which can only be seen as an unworthy and shameful attempt to discredit commercial forestry in general, and the Economic Forestry Group in particular."
My Lords, how do we landowners and woodland owners, feel about it? I would emphasise at once that we feel that this new agreement which has been arrived at must be made to work. I should like to refer to three paragraphs

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in that agreement, paragraphs 3, 4 and 6. Paragraph 3 reads:
"In order to try to avoid conflict between the needs of forestry and the preservation and enhancement of natural beauty, the parties co this agreement believe that the closest cooperation should be maintained between those concerned with afforestation and those responsible for accomplishing the purposes for which National Parks have been established. Accordingly, they agree that the Park Planning Authorities should be given the opportunity of commenting upon all proposals for the afforestation of any land which has hitherto not been planted."
The fourth paragraph reads:
"In each National Park (except one or two where special arrangements have already been made) the National Parks Commission will advise the Park Planning Authority to carry out, in association with the Forestry Commission, a survey with a view to compiling maps which would divide the land in the park as far as possible into three categories: (a) areas where there is a strong presumption that afforestation would be acceptable; (b) areas where, although there is a presumption against afforestation, proposals might be acceptable; and (c) areas where there is a strong presumption against afforestation."
I am given to understand that the Somerset Planning Authority are already starting to carry out this survey.
I wish particularly to ask the Government for an assurance that they on their side will do all they can to help us in making this agreement work. I can assure the House, from the point of view of the country landowners and the limber growers, that we will do everything we can to make it work; and I hope that, with this move made by the Chairman of the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, the amenities societies will do their best to stop this bickering at the moment and do all they can to help him in his efforts to make this agreement work.
5.26 p m.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, I am glad that my noble friend Lord Buckinghamshire has covered so fully this question of the afforestation of open land. It was, to say the least of it, unkind if not even mischievous, that the Manifesto to which he has referred should have appeared while negotiations were taking place for the setting up of this joint consultative action. While three or four parties are trying to negotiate a settlement, no useful purpose is served by publishing a manifesto of this sort, even under the distinguished auspices which published it. It is no good firing a broadside into the back of a
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negotiating party if you hope to get agreement.
There is one point that my noble friend did not mention when he was talking about forestry; that is, that there is a continuing difference of opinion about forestry in existing woodlands. The agreement to which my noble friend Lord Buckinghamshire referred, covers, of course, only open land, the planting of new land. There is still outstanding the most difficult question as to the nature of timber or young trees that should be planted in existing woods. That is a matter which will have to be gone into, no doubt, by another series of conferences. There is a school that cannot bear fir trees, and there is a school in favour of a proportion. I do not myself believe that it serves any useful purpose to take up an extreme view on this matter. Very few hardwood trees would grow without conifer nurses, and if one is a practical forester one must abide by that fact. For 20 years your plantation will look as if it is entirely a conifer plantation. It is only after the fillings have been taken out and the hardwoods grow that you see you have really a hardwood plantation. But how few people understand this matter? Certainly not the people who write letters to the Press.
It is a lamentable fact that we have such a very little knowledge of forestry in this country. The number of practising foresters in any one county of England to-day is negligible, and the preservation societies and so on do not appear to take a very keen interest in acquiring the basic knowledge of forestry. That leads to a great deal of misunderstanding on all sides. But forestry is only a tiny portion of the main work of the National Parks Commission and all those other bodies and committees which have to administer the National Parks Act.
Before passing from this point, I should like to say that in the County of Somerset, which is responsible for an excellent national park, we have not started a survey of woodlands—we have completed it, and it is now an agreed document. The principles that we adopted were that there were, as Lord Buckinghamshire mentioned, areas where one can reasonably plant—valleys, and so on, where forestry adds to the beauty of the scene. I say "adds to the beauty

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of the scene", because many of your Lordships have travelled in the Black Forest, in the Swiss mountains, in Bavaria and the forests of Germany, and know that those forests are the main features of beauty. That applies to many hillsides and coombs in the West Country and in the North Country, as I am sure my noble friend Lord Feversham would agree.
It is therefore a perfectly reasonable proposition to plant a proportion of the land within a national park. The only argument is: what is the proportion? Here it is a question of agreeing what is reasonable in the circumstances. Many people say that an area without any trees is the most beautiful thing they know; and they say it with complete confidence that they are absolutely right. Other people say that a tree-less landscape is the most horrible they know. So there is, and always will be, a difference of opinion on esthetic questions; and these are mainly æthetic questions. But, forestry apart, the Commission and their administrative bodies have to administer functions which, in spite of what has been said this afternoon, are not in many cases parallel: they diverge in opposite directions. Remembering the basis of these national parks, it is clearly not possible to carry out the preservation of natural beauty, and at the same time enhance it, without changing it. The enhancement must be an addition to the natural beauty. Those two propositions are very nearly, though pot quite, parallel.
When we come to the third proposition, the encouragement of facilities for open-air recreation by the public, that is one that is most difficult to administer without doing damage to the preservation of natural beauty or its enhancement; because the more facilities for open-air recreation are encouraged the more man-made facilities have to be brought into these naturally bautiful areas. By "man-made facilities" I mean, of course, car parks, the widening of roads, and refreshment places; and both the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and the noble Lord, Lord Dalton, wanted greatly increased accommodation. It is difficult to provide these things on a large scale, even if they are only Swedish chalets, without damaging
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the natural beauty; and certainly you will not preserve it.
In the national park which I know best, having been a member of the executive committee since it was formed, we think that accommodation is better provided, so far as possible, not in the centre of the most beautiful parts of the park, as advocated by Lord Dalton, but, if possible, just outside the park, in the neighbouring towns and villages. There may be a difference of opinion, but there certainly would be preservation of the natural beauty of the park by building accommodation facilities outside it, rather than inside it.
There is another view taken of mass recreation, because Lord Dalton said that he wished to see within the national parks facilities for recreation for the whole nation. With the population in the United Kingdom growing nearer 50 million persons, is it feasible to have recreational facilities for anything approaching 4 or 5 million within the existing national parks without destroying them? You could do it if you destroyed them, but you could not do it and, at the same time, preserve and enhance their natural beauty. There is a difficulty here, a difficulty which was well put by the Chairman of the National Parks Commission in a speech which he made on May 19, 1960. Referring to this question of mass playgrounds, which is really what Lord Dalton was advocating, he said that it was a very moot point whether it is possible to find an answer to this question. He went on to say that in some parts, at any rate, of each national park certain areas should be kept inviolate; and I believe that that would be the opinion of the majority in your Lordships' House to-day.
I should like now to refer to another point made by Lord Dalton when he highly commended the Forestry Commission's camping site in Kielder Forest. I, too, have been there. It fits most beautifully into the surrounding plantations and woods which the Forestry Commission have made. The curious thing is that, although this sort of caravan camp fits well into the forestry scenery at Kielder, in Northumberland, as your Lordships know it does not fit at all well into the scenery of the Pembrokeshire National Park in its coastal

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area. I happened to be in Pembrokeshire last August at the height of the holiday season. It never stopped raining, but in the midst of the rain I took the opportunity of trying to see how this problem of accommodation was being solved in Pembrokeshire. Of course Pembrokeshire is not well supplied with towns with holiday facilities, and so on; but there are some beautiful cliffs and bays along the Pembrokeshire coast which have been steadily—I will not say mutilated, but the beauty of which has been sadly decreased by large caravan camps, tented camps and refreshment stalls, which exist in nearly all the bays along those magnificent cliffs and along that coast.
This seems to be an example where holiday accommodation cannot well be provided near the coast itself. If this is to come—and the noble Lord, Lord Dalton, wishes the Parks to be used much more heavily and frequently—this is a national park where any additional accommodation would much better be put out of sight of the cliffs and coast, so that the natural beauty shall not be destroyed—which is really what is happening now. I thought I ought to mention those points, because that shows the complexity of the task of any national park committee or board. There are many facets that have to be integrated in any one park.
I have myself thought that the Commission themselves have been given an almost impossible task in trying to cover England and Wales, from Northumberland down nearly into Cornwall, in such a short time. It may be that it would have been wiser (and I thought so at the time) to limit the number of parks designated to a first flight, to see how they got on before extending them to their present number. The problems before the Commission—and on this one has only to read their Annual Reports—. are of such complexity that I do not see how any body of persons like the Commission can possibly cover in twelve months the extent and range that is necessarily involved from Northumberland to Cornwall. My noble friend Lord Dynevor has referred to industrial development. If one reads these Reports one sees that there are hundreds of problems. There is the terribly difficult one of electricity pylons, which I should
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have thought would have given the Commission a year's work with nothing else at all to do. But they shoulder that task, industrial development, mineral workings and a host of the most complicated questions in, I would venture to say, a most admirable way. How they do it I do not myself understand.
Finally, I would say that in the administration of the parks it will take many years to find the exact balance between the factors involved. There is the preservation factor, the enhancement factor and the public recreation factor; and there will always be the factors of an expanding agriculture and an expanding forestry. These have to be dealt with together, and in my opinion the Commission and the park committees have made a most admirable start. Whether simply giving them more money would help them, I rather doubt. I believe people do some of their best work when they have to do it economically; and the provision of more funds, except for very specific purposes, might do more harm than good. I should like to see the administration continuing very largely on the present lines for at least another five years, so that the administrators, who are gaining in knowledge every year, could finally have a great quantity of experience behind them before they recommend any really radical changes.
5.46 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, will forgive me if I do not pursue the topics which he has been discussing in his thoughtful speech, constructive in regard to many details of the problems which confront the National Parks Commission, and in his able elucidation of those problems to which I am sure the noble Lord the Chairman of the Commission has been listening with great interest. I would just join issue with the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, on his suggestion that it would have been better to have just two or three national parks and wait perhaps for twelve or fifteen years while we were seeing how they worked. That might have been good for a few areas, but I would assure the noble Lord that after that interval there would have been nowhere else left in the country worth creating as a national park; and I must say I feel that the Ministers who have designated areas

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suggested by the National Parks Commission during the period of the last ten years, on the whole very quickly and generally accepting the advice of the Commission, have been very wise in doing so.
I should like, as other noble Lords have done, to thank my noble friend Lord Silkin for giving us another opportunity of looking at what has been done on the national parks front, which, as the noble Lord has pointed out, is particularly valuable at the present time when we have had ten years' experience, at any rate in regard to the earlier of the national parks—the Peak District and the Lake District. I am sure that his survey has been valuable not only to Members of this House but to the National Parks Commission themselves and all those local authorities up and down the country who are bearing so much of the burden and heat of carrying through the not altogether easy provisions of the National Parks Act. As my noble friend Lord Silkin has mentioned, that Act followed a careful and prolonged survey by a Committee under the most able chairmanship of Sir Arthur Hobhouse, a great public servant to whose work I have paid tribute in the past; and the more one sees of it, I think, the more one appreciates the wisdom which he brought to bear on the various problems with which he had to deal.
The National Parks Act departed basically in a number of ways from the recommendations of the Hobhouse Committee. I have talked about this before now and do not propose to do so this afternoon. However, it is very interesting in that it was an entirely new venture in the history of this country and I believe any other country—because the problems here are so different from those which exist overseas, as has been pointed out to-day and on other occasions. Considering it was such an entirely new venture, and that we were sailing into such uncharted seas, I agree with noble Lords who have said that on the whole the Act has worked very well.
I believe it would be helpful, after ten years' experience of it, to have another inquiry, if one could find a Chairman as able as Sir Arthur Hobhouse, or even one not quite so able, and another similar sort of Committee on which there
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might be, perhaps, Mr. Michael Dower, a very capable successor of his eminent father, and other people of that kind. I think it would be useful to make an inquiry and investigation and an assessment at the present time of a more close and detailed kind than is possible in discussions such as we have from time to time in your Lordships' House, useful and valuable as those discussions always are.
For one thing, we have this matter, which has been mentioned more than once this afternoon, of the amending of the Act of 1949, which the National Parks Commission have been very anxious, for quite a number of years, should be done. It has been referred to in at least three of their Annual Reports, and it has always been fobbed off by the Minister on the ground that the legislative machine is too full to provide a Bill for, I suppose, such a comparatively unimportant matter as national parks. I am not sure that all politicians appreciate how many hundreds of thousands of people are very much concerned with problems of this sort, and I think it was very much in the minds of the Electorate, particularly of those coming back from the war in 1945, that there should be provision of amenity of this sort for the mass of the people.
It might be, of course, that if one made a really careful research into what had happened and equally careful proposals for the future, that would militate against the passing of some very reasonable and necessary amendments, such as those which the National Parks Commission have been putting up to the Ministry and on which, I understand, they are still working at the present time. I think that such new legislation should certainly be much more closely concerned with the implementation of the second of the two basic matters: the making of the national parks for the enjoyment of the people, which was stressed both by my noble friend Lord Silkin and, later on, by my noble friend, Lord Dalton. There are so very many ways in which that is not being done.
It is true that it is largely a matter of money; and it is true, as Lord Dalton said, that he gave a hint not only in his speech but also to some of us who were in the Hobhouse Committee; and to some extent the recommendations of the Hob-house Committee were based on the hint,

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and the later and more austere policy of his successor failed to implement them. I have often thought, as an enthusiastic national parker, that it was a pity that that happened at that stage. However, there it is.
Now there is just one small point which comes out clearly in the last Report of the National Parks Commission in regard to the cramping effect of the financial arrangements which are made. It is a small point, but I think it is a, good illustration of what is happening in much more important matters. There are a lot of people who go to national parks without very much idea about what they are going to find there, not knowing much about what a national park is, knowing practically nothing about the topography of the area they are visiting, and really requiring help and information. Now that help and information is being provided by the joint planning boards and other organisations of some of the national parks. In this Report there are some pleasant pictures of these information centres operating in Wales, I think, although they exist in other parts as well. But the point is stressed that in the Peak National Park, where a centre of this kind has been carried on by a very public-spirited man, an old mountaineering friend of mine who is now retiring, they had to shut it down because there wa.s no money available. These information centres in Wales, which are very modest affairs, are kept going out of the small funds of the National Parks Commission; and I suggest that this is quite ridiculous and it is high time that effective financial provision was made possible on the lines suggested by the noble Earl, Lord Feversham, in an interesting and valuable speech which I am sure we all enjoyed.
During the period since the National Parks Act Parliament has provided for historic houses a much larger sum, which is being used by the Commission with great ability and which has undoubtedly rescued from imminent decay some of the most splendid buildings which exist not only in this country but in the whole of Europe and the civilised world. That is all on the basis of a sum not much I larger than the sum suggested by the noble Earl; and I am sure that the
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noble Lord, Lord Strang, and his Committee could spend £150,000 with enormous advantage to the people of this country and the people from overseas, who are coming more and more to visit our shores in order that they may enjoy our wonderful scenery, which has been praised by so many speakers this afternoon.
I was glad to hear my noble friend Lord Silkin so strong on the evasion of Section 37 of the 1957 Act. We had a debate in this House a year or two ago on this electricity problem, and my noble and learned friend Lord Birkett, who I am so sorry is not with us to-day, made a most destructive criticism of what had been going on, particularly in Pembrokeshire. He suggested that the attitude of the authority there was flatly contrary to the mandate put upon them by the Parliament of this country. In effect, that indictment has been repeatedly and, I think, amply proved by my noble friend this afternoon. It is really insolence to Parliament that public authorities should behave in this way. There was a time when they would have been brought to the Bar of the House and punished for it. I sometimes think it might be a useful lesson to some of them if we did that again, because it is still within our powers to do so; and I hope that if they go on in that way there may be a move to that end, because it might put some very necessary fear into them.
From that matter, which was so ably dealt with not only by my noble friend Lord Silkin but by other speakers, I turn to forestry; and I do not find myself quite so much in sympathy with some of the remarks which have been made this afternoon. I will go with the noble Lord, Lord Dynevor, and say that at the present time the position between the amenities movement and the Forestry Commission is very much better than it was. I would not say that it was perfect even now; and I would refer my noble friend, Lord Dalton, who is rather "sold" to them, if I may say so—I myself am not "sold" to them—to a speech made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Birkett, on the last occasion. Lord Birkett told us of the sad experiences which we had in the Lake District when the Forestry Commission came into that lovely country, Wordsworth country, without any sort of sympathy for what had been done in the

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past by landowners; because the early landowners in the Lake District who were foresters were exceedingly sensitive to the beauties of the Lake District.
However, the Forestry Commission have learned; and I am glad to say that the Joint Committee of the Forestry Commission and the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, which has now been in existence for quite a number of years, is working very well. Incidentally, I could not understand Lord Dalton's point of view; he did not seem to think that the Forestry Commission were bureaucratic in any sort of way. They were perfectly reliable, he thought; whereas he seemed to think that Lord Strang's small office, which is really not large enough to be a bureaucracy, he could not trust because it was a developing bureaucracy. Having seen something of the workings of the two offices, I have not much doubt which of them is the more bureaucratic.
As I say, however, as regards the present chairman of the Forestry Commission, I quite agree with my noble friend about Lord Radnor. He is very sympathetic to the claims of the amenities movement; and not only be but others of the Forestry Commission are working most sympathetically with us. I hope that the new timber-growing organisation which has been referred to may eventually learn similar ways. I am not altogether sure that at present they are really sympathetic to the outlook of the amenities movement, and I do not myself feel that the voluntary scheme is altogether satisfactory. It will have to be worked somehow, because it is the best thing that we have at the moment; and on this point I thought that the remarks of the noble Earl, Lord Fever-sham, were very wise. We must try to make it work. If, at the end of a few years, we find that it is not working, then obviously there will be an overwhelming case (this is what I understood him to say) for legislation, or for some other method of handling the problem. And with that I agree.
As I understand this voluntary agreement—I am sorry that I have not got it with me, but I have had it and have read it—it seems to me that there are in it a considerable number of loose ends that must be tied up before it will be good
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enough to form a basis for solving this problem. It seems to me that there is in it no specific guarantee given by the parties to it. The noble Earl, Lord Buckinghamshire, who represents the Country Landowners' Association on the C.P.R.E., is naturally treating it very much from their point of view—and it is perfectly right that he should, because all these different points of view must be put in your Lordships' House. That is why I am trying to indicate that there is another point of view: that which is expressed in the Manifesto, although I do not myself necessarily go as far as that.
This Standing Committee on National Parks, though technically it is, in a sense, a sub-committee of the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, is and has been for many years a pretty individual organisation. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Birkett, was chairman of it for many years, and it was under his constructive guidance, I think, that the National Parks movement succeeded in persuading the Government of the day to establish national parks. So that, if there is any difference of opinion between Lord Buckinghamshire and myself, your Lordships will appreciate how it comes about.
However, it does not seem to me that any sufficiently specific guarantees have been given on the part of either the Country Landowners' Association or the timber-growing organisation to put their cards on the table, so to speak, in respect of their afforestation schemes. So far as I can see, they have not entered into any real obligation to submit their schemes to the national parks authorities—and, even if they do so, we cannot be certain that other syndicates and other timber organisations will hold themselves bound by this particular agreement, which is an agreement of comparatively limited scope between a very small number of organisations. Therefore I feel that while, as I said, we must do our best to make this agreement work, we must not place too much reliance upon it, and we must watch the situation very carefully.
There is, of course, all the difference in the world between blanket afforestation of the commercial kind which is now coming into force in this country and the old type of timber growing by landowners which John Evelyn described

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in his letters and his diaries, and which provided the woods through which my noble friend Lord Dalton liked to walk, soliloquising, in the days when he was able to get about and enjoy these long walks about which he has told us—and I must say that I myself have enjoyed very similar experiences. However, modern commercial afforestation is quite different: it can change the whole scene of the country radically and completely. If my noble friend will go up to Ennerdale, which in Wordsworth's time and in my time was one of the most lovely valleys in the whole of the Lake District, he will find its character completely changed; and if he knew it before the First World War I think he will agree that it has been changed considerably for the worse. I do not think that the possibility of this kind of extensive afforestation in the national parks areas was envisaged in 1949; otherwise I feel that there would have been some provision made for control.
Now, my Lords, there is another matter about which I should like to say something. I refer to Dartmoor, which has been very much in the thick of this afforestation problem. I think that the Economic Forestry Group people themselves have said that their proposals would affect something (I think it is) more than 10 per cent. of the area at Dartmoor; and if one considers also the claims of the Army (which I want to mention in a moment), the claims of agriculture and the other claims, that does not leave a great deal of land for the enjoyment of the general public who wish to go to Dartmoor to seek fresh air and recreation.
But an even more serious problem at Dartmoor is the fact that since the end of the war it has been a very important military training area. Before the National Parks Act was put upon the Statute Book there had already been an inquiry in 1947 into the use of Dartmoor as a training area. A sort of compromise was reached at that stage which covered the use of a large part of Dartmoor for firing practice and another area in which training could go on but in which firing was not to take place. In the interval between that time and the present time, there has been a radical change in the situation at Dartmoor. Many more people are now coming in, the type of military exercise which is
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going on has changed radically, and different types of artillery are now being used.
The whole situation has become such that in my submission, and in the submission, I think, of pretty well all the amenities organisations which are in touch with Dartmoor, Dartmoor is no longer a satisfactory place for military manœuvres and exercises to be carried out. The mortar shells which are fired are frequently found alive. I have here a photograph of live mortar ammunition which was found by ramblers across Dartmoor. Then, a large number of troops leave litter all over the place, and I have got other photographs showing a really disgraceful state of affairs in that respect. Buildings are put up by the military. I do not know whether the War Department have an architect, but if they have, he certainly was never used for the purpose of these stores and other places which have been put up.
In many other ways, also, the situation has been completely changed. As I understand it, the War Department are quite unsympathetic to the representations which have been made by the Dartmoor Preservation Society, and I should like to appeal to the Prime Minister himself to look into these matters. In the years immediately after the war, my noble friend Lord Attlee, who was here until a few minutes ago, himself took a very strong and personal line in regard to these matters. The military were at that time established all over the country. If my noble friend had not intervened they would have kept a stranglehold on a large number of areas; but he indicated, very firmly, that, if necessary, he would look at this problem, and the result of that was very chastening for them. We were negotiating with the War Department, and found that they were very susceptible to that sort of high political pressure. I hope the present Prime Minister may have these matters brought to his attention and may be prepared to intervene, if necessary, in this sort of question. Dartmoor is a most important area, and I feel it should receive very careful and sympathetic consideration.
I have not time to deal with many of the points of which I made note, but before I sit down I should like to add something to what the noble Earl, Lord Feversham, said as to the problem of

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manners and behaviour in the national parks. I am afraid he is only too right; if anything, he rather underpainted the picture. I have a pretty close knowledge of the Peak District National Park, as I have the honour to be President of the Sheffield and Peak District Branch of the C.P.R.E. That park is possibly the worst case, as it is surrounded by industrial areas from which it is easy to get on motor bicycles. Half the hooligans in the North of England seem, some week-ends, to come in, and the lot of the farmer in that area is certainly a very unfortunate one.
I have had the great pleasure of being taken by the noble Earl round his own national park in the North Riding, and if any others of your Lordships would like the same opportunity I can assure you that not only is it lovely country, but it is very pleasant indeed to be taken round by the noble Earl himself. He has made a number of constructive suggestions which I think deserve the closest consideration by the authorities. The problem of fire, especially in the national parks where afforestation has taken place and particularly in the forests on the East side of the country where the weather is drier, is a very real one, and I do not feel that enough attention has been paid to it. He has given us examples of serious damage which has been done. More serious damage will take place, if urgent attention is not given to this matter. I know the Forestry Commission have had this matter very much in mind, and have been prosecuting research into it. The Fire Service Training and Research Trust, of which I happen to be a member, has been giving a little help in that direction, but it is a matter which requires a great deal more work put into it, not only on the part of the Forestry Commission but on the part of the authorities who are responsible for the parks and who are local fire authorities.
In the Peak District there is a most useful warden system which has been operating for several years. Without the wardens, I think the amount of damage done by hooligans would be infinitely larger than it is. But, again, you need finance. You rely on volunteer wardens to some extent, but you must have a cadre of paid ones so that you can be sure of having people there throughout
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the week-ends, and have trainers to train the voluntary wardens. This is no doubt a possible solution, but it is a solution which is possible only if more money is forthcoming.
Finally, I should like to say how much I enjoyed the imaginative and poetical perorations of the noble Earl's speech. As he thought and said, how much we in this country, and our great poets and writers, owe to sojourns in the countryside—and the poet of my own native land, Wordsworth, how much have we in England owed to him and his magnificent poetry, his beautiful thoughts! And how much of that did he derive from the natural beauty of the Lake District, as he then knew it! Perhaps the most important aspect of the whole of the National Parks movement is the one to which the noble Earl then referred, and I should like to say how much I enjoyed his speech.
THE EARL OF BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: My Lords, before the noble Lard sits down, could I give him some information? As I understood it, he felt—and if I say anything wrong, I hope he will correct me—that the Country Landowners' Association and the Timber Growers' Association had not very much to contribute towards the agreement that has been come to.
LORD CHORLEY: No, the noble Earl was not here. What I said was—
THE EARL OF BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: With respect, I was here. I was on the Woolsack.
LORD CHORLEY: Then the noble Earl has misunderstood me. I did not say that they had not much to contribute, but that the agreement had not been properly tied up. I have not got it here with me, but when I read it I did not feel that the obligations entered into were sufficiently specific, and that even if in individual cases specific obligations were entered into, these would cover only the parties to them. There are all sorts of other people not obliged by this agreement, yet who might take a great part in afforestation in national parks, because at the present time the National Parks are not protected by planning law.
THE EARL OF BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: I want to give the noble Lord an assurance, and a specific one. The

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Timber Growers' Association, of which I am a member, and the Country Landowners' Association, which, after all, fathered the Timber Growers' Association will do everything in their power to make this agreement work. Whether things are tied up properly or not, we will do everything we can to see that our obligations are met. For the purposes of the Record, may I state—I do not think I did in my speech—that the agreement which has been come to has been come to between the National Parks Commission, the Forestry Commission, the Timber Growers' Association, and the Country Landowners' Association, and is backed by the Minister.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, could I be a little irregular and ask the noble Earl what proportion of the potential woodland developers comprise this Association?
THE EARL OF BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: My Lords, it is very difficult for me to answer that question. So far as the Timber Growers' Association are concerned, they came into the matter only six months ago. They are very busy recruiting at the moment, and are just about forming their Executive Committee. Members are elected by regions on to the Council, and from the Council the Executive Committee is being formed.
6.18 p.m.
LORD REA: My Lords, I have no intention of keeping your Lordships for more than a few moments this afternoon, but I should like to add my voice to the chorus of unanimous approval and appreciation of the work which the noble Lord, Lord Strang, and the Commission are doing, and doing with very little money. I think the debate has shown that we wish more strength to their elbow, and more pounds—or perhaps I should say thousands of pounds—in their bank account.
There is one personal experience to which I should like to refer. During the course of this afternoon noble Lords have referred to "my national park" and so on. "My national park" is the second in seniority and the largest in area, the Lakeland Park, and in view of the remarks which have been made about difficulties of working together of the
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Forestry and the amenity people, I should like, if I may shortly, to relate a small experience of my own. I happened at one time to have the privilege and the responsibility of owning a small valley called Miterdale, which the noble Lord. Lord Chorley, will doubtless know, and there is a little river, called the Mite, which starts in a little mountain tarn called Burnmoor and runs down to sea level, some four or five miles to the West, and through countryside of peat, and out, crop rock and heather down to green pastureland and woods where there is a little 15th century farm. The Forestry Commissioners wanted to plant trees in this little valley, and reluctantly I had to accede to their wish. Being, I hope, on speaking terms with both the noble Lord, Lord Strang, and the noble Earl, Lord Radnor, I asked for their guidance and I strongly suspect they both went up to see the place, and, in any event, they seem to have given good instructions to others.
I was worried whether the Forestry Commission would have regimented this valley with conifers, which grow as rectangular regiments of almost Teutonic appearance, like the trees one Sees in the Black Forest. Some people may like them, but the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, and I think that they do not fit in with the Lake District scenery. I was worried about the effect on our delightful scenery. But things went very well and I want to put on record what these two apparently competing organisations were able to do. It was agreed that there should be open land of 200 to 300 acres and that there should be maintained 200 or so head of sheep in perpetuity, so that trees could not be planted everywhere. By cutting a swathe up the valley to the top of the dale, people can look up from the lower valley to see Scawfell, the highest mountain in England. Moreover, through this valley, along the borders of the river and its small tributaries, hardwood should be planted and the conifers set back to more suitable places. I want to put this on record to express thanks, as one who is an owner of land, for what has been done by these two bodies, which are said to he at one another's throats and to have found it a little difficult to find their way to cooperate together, but who, in now doing so, are proving an asset to the cause of preserving our countryside.
6.22 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, my first task, which is a pleasant one, is to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, on initiating the debate this afternoon. Some 14 per cent. of the total land surface of England and Wales lies within the national parks or their younger cousins, the areas of outstanding natural beauty. It is quite right, therefore, that from time to time your Lordships' House should review the progress made in the preservation and use of these great tracts of lovely country. As the father of the legislation establishing the national parks, it is only right that the noble Lord. Lord Silkin, should now, for the fourth time, I think, initiate a debate here on this important subject.
My second task is to make it clear that the Government fully share the keenness about the future of national parks which all speakers this afternoon have shown. I have seen it suggested recently in the Press, and I think it has been implicit in some of the speeches in your Lordships' House this afternoon, that the Government are in some way indifferent to the Parks. That is simply not true. Collectively, the Government, the Commission and the park authorities take a very active interest in this matter. My right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government is himself keenly involved in it. He knows all the parks personally and will shortly he addressing the National Parks Conference at Harlech. Indeed, there will be two and a quarter Ministers there—my right honourable friend, my noble friend the Minister of State for Welsh Affairs and myself.
A large number of points have been made in this debate, and I fear that I may not cover all of them in my reply or all of them adequately. If there are any loose ends, I shall, of course, make it my business to see that they are brought to the attention of my right honourable friend and his Department. I do not wish to make any invidious comparisons. We have heard many good and constructive speeches in this debate, but among the most distinguished and most constructive of those speeches was. I think, that of my noble friend Lord Feversham. I shall not he dealing in detail with some of the points he put to me, but I can assure him that those points will be carefully examined by the Departments concerned.
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After eleven years, the main structure of our national parks system is firmly and, on the whole, I believe, soundly established. There is, first, the National Parks Commission itself. Like other speakers, I should like to emphasise how much the parks owe to the absolutely devoted work of the Commission, of the officers and of the Chairman the noble Lord, Lord Strang. There are now the ten national parks—all going concerns, although I would suggest that some are more going than others. Then there are the areas of outstanding natural beauty, to the designation of which the National Parks Commission are now devoting a great deal of energy. Twelve areas have now been designated, and four or more follow every year. Here, I should like to congratulate those county councils who are following up with positive action the designation of areas that lie within their boundaries, and I would express the hope that all county councils will use the additional powers which designation confers on them. I would also, if I may, take this opportunity of clearing up a little confusion which arose between the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and my noble friend Lord Buckinghamshire, to say that the Chilterns are not yet designated.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, deplored the fact that London's nearest national park is in the Peak District, some 150 miles away. The noble Lord made it clear in his speech that the Hobhouse Committee had suggested that the South Downs should become a national park. The National Parks Commission decided, for, I think, good and sufficient reason, that the Downs were unsuitable, but hope to designate the Sussex and Hampshire Downs as separate areas of outstanding natural beauty, like the Surrey hills and the Chilterns later. It is with these that Londoners will have to be content. Using Lord Silkin's own words, in 1957, quoting from the OFFICIAL REPORT [Vol. 202, col. 651]:
"It is inevitable, but a great pity, that there is nothing within reasonable reach of London."
The noble Lord also asked about the Norfolk Broads. In the debate two years ago, my noble friend Lord Dundee referred to the recommendation of the Bowes Committee and said that discussions were taking place between the Great Yarmouth and Haven Commissioners and the East Suffolk and Norfolk River Board. That was the position

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two years ago. Unfortunately, there is still considerable local disagreement over this, and up to now my right honourable friend has felt a natural reluctance to impose a settlement which would not command broad local acceptance. However, as the Bowes Committee and also the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, have pointed out, this is a matter of urgency, and my right honourable friend recognises that he may have to step in.
The noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, asked if the Government would consider turning the Solent area and the New Forest into a national park. Having spent my childhood on the Isle of Wight and learned to sail, and capsize, in the Solent and its creeks, I sympathise with the noble Earl's feelings for that beautiful, but threatened, area of the country. I think that the idea which he put forward is an attractive one. But, of course, it is for the National Parks Commission to decide whether to designate the Solent area as a national park. I understand that the Commission take the view—and I think the noble Earl is aware of it—that this area does not qualify under the Act, since these shores are not (and here I quote the Act) "an extensive tract of country" and since the Act does not apply to tidal waters. The noble Earl knows that the waters of the Solent are doubly tidal. However, the Commission hope to designate much of the coastal strip on both the Hampshire and the Wight sides as an area of oustanding natural beauty. In addition, as I think the noble Earl said in his speech, the Hampshire County Council have put forward a project for a green belt to include most of the Hampshire Solent coast. It will be seen, therefore, that both the Commission and the local authorities have a special concern for this very special strip of coastline. I think that is the most that I can say to the noble Earl.
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: Perhaps I might ask the noble Earl whether my suggestion of having three national parks might be possible. Would that conflict with the Act? There would be no question then of tidal waters being affected.
EARL JELLICOE: I shall naturally he glad to put this proposal for this ingenious trinity of parks to my right honourable friend; and, of course, the
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noble Lord, Lord Strang, has himself heard the suggestion. Whether or not it gets round this particular difficulty I have not, off the cuff, the faintest idea.
When the National Parks Commission were set up, preservation of the landscape was the first main objective, together with facilities for the enjoyment and enhancement of the natural beauty of the parks. I was much struck by a phrase I recently came across in a book by that distinguished landscape consultant, Miss Sylvia Crowe, when she wrote:
"Good landscape is part of the nation's standard of living."
The Government accept that dictum, despite the fact that we sometimes have to accept encroachments in the parks that in an ideal world or, indeed, in a bigger country we might otherwise resist, the encroachments of military interdependence as at Fylingdales; the encroachments of twentieth century power at (my noble friend Lord Dynevor may object to my pronunciation here) Trawsfynydd, or Milford Haven; and those essential developments which result from the everyday needs of the many people who live and work in the parks. Thus absolute preservation is, in the Government's view, an unrealistic ideal. Indeed, it may even be an undesirable aim, as we should not wish the parks to become fossilised museums, but much prefer them to be, in Lord Silkin's phrase, "living, dynamic things". We must therefore strike that reasonable balance between the requirements of beauty and those other requirements, tiresome though they might appear to the park perfectionists, of defence, power, the national economy, and the many people to whom the parks are both a home and a livelihood.
What about these other considerations of defence, the economy and power? On defence, the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, referred to the use of Dartmoor for defence purposes. Of course the use of land in national parks or areas of outstanding natural beauty for Service training or for defence purposes is often controversial. When, as at Dartmoor, a considerable area is involved (I do not know the precise area, but I think that when it is in use it is approximately one-third of Dartmoor), and the public are denied access for fairly considerable periods of time or at frequent intervals,

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the grievance felt is naturally considerable. However, in the case of Dartmoor, as indeed the noble Lord made clear, these training areas were in use before the national park was desigated, as such. Efforts have been made, both here and elsewhere, and not without success, to reduce the areas held and also to restrict as little as possible the access of public to the land.
LORD CHORLEY: May I interrupt the noble Earl? What I am asking is that there should be a new inquiry, in view of the very altered situation since 1947 when the earlier inquiry was made.
EARL JELLICOE: I shall, of course, be glad to bring that suggestion to the attention of the Departments concerned. But I should like to make it clear that in the last two or three years the War Department have given up approximately 4,000 acres at Merrivale End in Dartmoor, a point which the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, did not make. The noble Lord also complained about the use of a new type of artillery on Dartmoor. I think he should consult other members of the Party opposite, because usually we on this side are under attack for not introducing new equipment into the Army.
LORD CHORLEY: I am not objecting to the use of new equipment. What I say is that it has altered the situation on Dartmoor, because a different type of projectile is used: one which often comes down and does not explode, thereby creating danger to the walkers across the country. There is now mortar fire, and I understand that the shells do not explode in the way that the older type of artillery did. I may, of course, be wrong about that.
EARL JELLICOE: As I have said, I will gladly bring to the attention of the Departments concerned the suggestion for a new look at this problem.
Next I come to forestry. Many noble Lords have drawn attention to the threat which large-scale afforestation poses for the parks. This is certainly a major problem. It is mainly felt, I think, in the South West, in Exmoor and Dartmoor; but it could well be felt—indeed, it has at times been felt—elsewhere. It arouses strong local feeling, and its importance is reflected in the great atten-
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tion paid to it, and rightly so, in the last two Reports of the National Parks Commission. I myself touched on this matter briefly in the debate in your Lordships' House on February 14 on the Devon County Council Bill. However, in view of what has been said in this debate, I feel that I must, although as briefly as possible, re-state the Government's attitude towards this problem.
There are, as we see it, two distinct issues: first, the replanting of existing woodlands, with conifers or not, as the case may be; and secondly, the large-scale afforestation of open moorland. I know some of these lovely Dartmoor woods—Buckland, for example—and I can understand the strong desire to preserve them as they stand, although many of them contain, as I understand it, timber which badly needs replacing. I am happy to say that a very large measure of agreement has now been reached between the forestry interests and the planning authority; compromises have been made on both sides and, so far as the existing woodlands problem is concerned, I believe that it is fair to say that the threat has sensibly diminished through the good sense exercised all round.
The knottier problem—and I think we must frankly face it as a knotty problem—does seem to be the proposals by private forestry interests to plant large areas of open moorland. These moorlands have a unique character and one can well understand why some of your Lordships have called for the imposition of planning controls over forestry in national parks. However, as I made clear in the debate on February 22, the Government have felt it much wiser to proceed by the voluntary method rather than by compulsion. That is why my right honourable friend decided to seek the co-operation of the timber growers, who in their operations so far have shown a willingness which we must acknowledge to consider the interests of amenity. As a result, a voluntary scheme, to which my noble friend Lord Buckinghamshire referred, has been drawn up.
The Government's view is that this agreement should be given a fair trial. We see no reason why it should not be possible to reconcile the interests of the national parks with those of good

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forestry and of the landowners concerned; and I must say that in this respect I agree wholeheartedly with what the noble Lord!, Lord Dalton, had to say on the matter. But obviously the success of the scheme, which provides for the sort of consultation for which I understood the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, to be asking, will depend upon the cooperation displayed by all those who are parties to it. However, on the present evidence, there is no reason, I believe, to think that this co-operation will not be forthcoming, and willingly forthcoming; and I was glad that my noble friend Lord Buckinghamshire was able to inform us officially of the determination of the Chairman of the Council for the Preservation of Rural England to do all he could to make a success of this scheme. I can, of course, give the noble Earl the assurance he requests: that the Government, for their part, are determined! to do all they can to make a success of this scheme.
I should like particularly to draw your Lordships' attention to (I think it is), paragraph 7 of the scheme, which states that, in the event of disagreement at any stage, the good offices of the Government Departments concerned will be available. Surely it is better to proceed by the voluntary method, if possible. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, asked what would happen if the voluntary method failed, if agreement could not be reached. My answer to that is twofold. First, this is a hypothetical question; it is a bridge which I do not believe at the moment we shall come to because, secondly, I and the Government are confident in the good sense of everybody concerned in this. However, should the voluntary approach fail, then all I can say is that we shall have to think again.
Several noble Lords have mentioned the equally knotty problem of reconciling the requirements of modern power with those of the national parks. This difficult matter of the power stations and their associated power lines was debated in your Lordships' House in February of last year, and I can add little to what was said then. So far as the power stations are concerned, our policy is to permit their siting in national parks or in areas of outstanding natural beauty only if the Ministers of Power and of Housing and Local Government are
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quite certain that suitable sites cannot be found elsewhere—I repeat, quite certain.
So far as the high power transmission lines, the super-grid lines, are concerned, whilst undergrounding remains so much more costly than overheading—if that is the phrase—it must be expected that overhead lines will continue to be used in most cases. The cost differential at present is just too great. For the time being, therefore, we must mainly rely on the earliest possible consultation between the local authorities, indluding, of course, the park planning committees, and the local Electricity Boards, aimed at helping the Boards to find the least obtrusive routes for overhead lines. Some of the examples quoted in Appendix C of the Parks Commission's Eleventh Report show that local Electricity Boards have made concessions to amenity by altering line routes, or varying sections of them, especially the lower-power distribution lines, although there may well be room for improvement in this matter, as was suggested by my noble friend Lord Feversham.
In the debate in February a year ago, the noble Lord, Lord Hurcomb, expressed some scepticism about the Government's serious concern for amenity when it clashed with the national appetite for power. He asked for one or two decisions in the right sense which would show that proper regard had been had for amenity. Unfortunately, the most important pending cases which concern the national parks, those of Borrow-dale and Martindale, are still, as it were, sub judice; and obviously I cannot comment on them. However, although it concerns a Green Belt and not a national park, I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to the recent decision by the Minister of Power, in consultation with my right honourable friend, to refuse consent to three miles of a proposed overhead 275 kilovolt line between Elstree and Mill Hill. Surely that is an indication of the Government's attitude in this matter.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, asked about the recent inquiry into the proposals of the South Wales Electricity Board to supply electricity by overhead wire near Whitesands Bay, in Pembrokeshire. I do not wish at this rather late hour to go into the merits of that particular case, but I should like to read

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three extracts from the reply of my right honourable friend to the letter from the noble Lord, Lord Strang, to which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, referred. In the first place (I will not read this extract), my right honourable friend said that the eventual decision which was reached represented, in his view, a reasonable balance between utility and amenity. Secondly, he went on to state that the Minister of Power is asking the Boards to take particular care in future, when they have to justify their proposals either before or at a public inquiry, to do so on the basis that in their judgment they are a reasonable balance between the Boards' statutory duties to develop an economical supply, on the one hand, and to take amenity into account, on the other.
I should like to mention that in the recent inquiry in January on the Borrowdale line, the North West Electricity Board, at the opening of the inquiry, made it clear that the electricity would be provided quickly, whether consent was given or refused to the overhead line they suggested. I should like to read one further extract from that letter. That says:
"Finally, I should like to assure the Commission that both the Minister of Power and I "—
that is the Minister of Housing and Local Government—
"are determined that the Electricity Boards should carry out their duty under Section 37 of the 1957 Act."
I feel that that is perhaps a sufficient answer to the allegation that Section 37 is a dead letter.
My Lords, I have touched on some of the more difficult sides of this constant struggle to defend the national parks—the battle against the forces, sometimes irresistible, of national defence and power, and the demands of our increasingly wealthy society. The Report of the Commission also shows how much valuable and patient, yet quite unspectacular, work is being done, most of which does not hit the headlines. Preventing undesirable development in the parks and elsewhere is mostly just hard slogging. Yet many undesirable things are avoided by the Commission's unremitting attention to development proposals. When new development is allowed, the parks autho-
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rities go to great pains to see that it merges with the landscape. Thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Strang, I had the chance recently of attending a meeting of one of the committees of the National Parks Commission. I was very much struck by the deep care and intimate knowledge with which these often very detailed matters are handled by the Commission.
So much for preservation. I should like now, in conclusion, to turn to the more positive side of this coin. Here, steady, but modest—and I freely admit it is modest—progress is being made. Several noble Lords have referred to the question of the public rights of way, and the long-distance routes. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, referred, I thought in perhaps unduly gloomy terms, to the rights of way which he feared are being lost. I was surprised to hear that, because (of course, I may be wrong) it is not my understanding that the position is so desperate. All, or nearly all, the county councils concerned have completed their surveys, and the process of getting public rights of way through the various stages on to a definite map is going ahead. But I would admit that that process is taking time. The same applies, of course, to the long-distance routes to which the noble Lord, Lord Dalton, referred. The progress here is slow and patchy, and this is to be regretted. But the Pennine Way, the Cornish North Coast Path and the Devon South Coast Path are making very good progress. Others are making slower progress, but I would agree with my noble friend Lord Dynevor that the voluntary method is far best applied in these cases.
Almost all noble Lords have called for more expenditure on the national parks, and I shall be coming to that aspect in a moment. I would mention here, however, that Exchequer grants to the park authorities are now three times what they were when your Lordships last discussed this matter. They are, of course, still a relatively modest sum. I think the total Exchequer grant in respect of national parks is something under £70,000 a year at present.
I am glad to see, however, that there has been a modest increase in the park information activities. The Commission hope to see at least one small information centre established in each park,

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and that is surely a good thing. There are many other ways, of course, in which the Commission are striving to foster an informed body of opinion, and my impression is that interest in the parks is in fact growing. The B.B.C., incidentally, plan to produce two programrnes, one sound and one television, about the parks this summer, and this, too, should be helpful in creating a deeper knowledge and appreciation of what the parks are.
However, when all is said and done many people feel that more could, and should, be done for and in the parks. Certainly this view has been voiced from many quarters in this House this afternoon. Of course, we must be careful what we do to the parks. In essence they remain places to which people go to seek and enjoy the solitude of great reaches of beautiful and relatively wild country. They are a retreat from the rush and vulgarity of our urbanised, motorised, televised twentieth century. In developing the parks, we must, therefore, be careful to preserve their essential characteristics, as my noble friend Lord Hylton pointed out. However, it seems that there is scope for a somewhat more positive approach. For more facilities generally. For the quicker elimination of the still existing eyesores. For more car parks. For more boundary signs. For an expanded warden service, which might well meet some of the difficulties about the behaviour of visitors to the parks, to which my noble friend Lord Feversham drew attention, although of course some of his suggestions could be met only by legislation. For a more effective fire service, which was also suggested by my noble friend. For more accommodation generally, whether of the comfortable kind which the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, favours, or the more rigorous kind as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Dalton.
LORD DALTON: My Lords, I suggest both, according to taste. I do not think they are exclusive.
EARL JELLICOE: May I say I was particularly attracted by what the noble Lord, Lord Dalton, had to say about this matter, not because I prefer the more rigorous kind myself, but I recall that, a year ago, climbing and skiing in the Atlas Mountains of Morocco, which are pretty remote, my companions and I came across
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a number of excellent refuges. We find too little of this sort of thing in the parks. It seems to me, too, that there may be a need for more facilities and better facilities for sports and hobbies, for camping and caravanning, in the right places—it is very important that these should be in the right places; for riding, for sailing, for rock climbing, for all forms of adventure training, for archæology and other forms of nature study. Some of the more enterprising park authorities are moving along those lines, and they are to be congratulated on it. The Peak have established a very successful ski run at Hale. The Lake District sponsor six week-end mountaineering schools. All the same I personally have the feeling that a great deal more could be done, given the determination and the means.
In fact, to conclude, the time may now have come for the parks to enter a new and more positive phase of their history. After all, we now have eleven years' experience of working them. The Commission are looking into what might be done, and the Minister has asked them and the park authorities for further up-to-date information, so that he can get a really comprehensive picture of the needs of the parks. This information is now beginning to come in, and it has been considerably supplemented this evening by the information provided by your Lordships in this debate, including a number of most interesting specific proposals, of which I should like, if I may, to single out that of my noble friend Lord Feversham for a direct Treasury grant to the National Parks Commission, without committing myself in any one way or the other on it. It is, in any case, clear that a constructive approach will almost certainly mean widening the powers of the Act, extending the eligibility for grants, and, last but not least, more cash. In the near future my right honourable friend should be in a position to see what can be done over and above existing programmes, and to decide how far this calls for new legislation and for more money from the Exchequer. In any event, I can assure noble Lords that the needs of the parks will be viewed sympathetically and constructively. I can also assure them that my right honourable friend will take careful note of the many valuable suggestions made in to-day's debate by previous speakers, all of whom possess an intimate knowledge and love for these parks.
6.57 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I do not propose to detain the House very much longer, but I should like in no conventional sense to express my gratitude to all those who have taken part in the debate for the most valuable contributions which they have made. I think it will be agreed that this debate has been really worth while. Every speaker has spoken with knowledge and with keenness about the Motion, which I am afraid is not always the case with the subjects we discuss here—at least not always with the detailed knowledge which they possess. I should like, in particular, to express my congratulations to the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, upon the reply which he has given. I know that he has taken a great deal of trouble to acquaint himself with the subject, and if this debate has served no other purpose it has served a highly educational purpose so far as the noble Earl himself is concerned. He has issued a great many pledges, a great many undertakings of consideration by the Minister of various points that have been made, and promises that certain
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things will come about in the near future. He and the Government will be held to those undertakings. He must not be surprised if in the near future Questions are put to him, or to whoever happens to be answering for the Government on this subject, as to what progress has been made on the particular matters to which we have referred. With those few words, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

WINCHESTER CATHEDRAL CLOSE BILL
Reported, without amendment.

SUTTON COLDFIELD CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
House adjourned at one minute before seven o'clock.