Sitting of 27 October 1960

Preamble
The House met at Eleven o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
NEW WRIT
For Bolton, East, in the room of Major Philip Ingress Bell, T.D., Q.C., appointed a Judge of the County Court.—[Mr. Redmayne.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EDUCATION

    Women Teachers
    Mrs. Butlerasked the Minister of Education what consultations he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the Income Tax difficulties which discourage married women qualified teachers from returning to teaching.
    The Minister of Education (Sir David Eccles): My right hon. and learned Friend is aware of this problem, but the position of women teachers cannot be dealt with separately in a matter of general taxation policy.
    Mrs. Butler: Has the Minister any idea of how many married women there are who would gladly turn to teaching but who find it financially not worth while because of tax aggregation and the lack of suitable tax allowances for the additional expenses in which they would be involved? Will he in the next Session consult his right hon. and learned Friend to see whether some means of meeting this difficulty can be found in the next Budget?
    Sir D. Eccles: I cannot say how many married women there are in that situation. I do not have very many people complaining on this point, although, no doubt, there are a few.
    Mrs. Butler: I have more than 100 letters.
    Mrs. White: May I press this matter? Many of us who are in touch with organisations of professional women, university women, and so forth, are constantly told that this is a real problem. Does the Minister realise that it applies to teachers and to other persons working in education? Does he recall that I have on previous occasions suggested that something should be done, for instance, about the school dental service, which is, as he knows, so shockingly behindhand that, if there are any women dentists who could help, they ought not to be deterred, as they might well be, by the circumstances to which my hon. Friend has referred? Is it not the right hon. Gentleman's duty to make further inquiries into the matter?
    Sir D. Eccles: Of course, we want to get them all back, but this is part of a very large problem. There are 4 million married women in gainful employment. Therefore, my right hon. and learned Friend has a very big problem.

    Technical College, Wellington
    Mr. W. Yatesasked the Minister of Education what progress has been made in the construction of a technical college at Bennetts Bank, Wellington: and when it will be opened.
    Sir D. Eccles: The local education authority expects to have the building in use for the autumn term, 1961, as originally planned.
    Mr. Yates: Is my right hon. Friend aware that that is quite satisfactory, but will he also bear in mind the Oakengates Technical College founded by the Walker Trust? Will he do his best to see that the Shropshire County Council uses this building for the benefit of education in the area of Oakengates?
    Sir D. Eccles: I will look into that and write to my hon. Friend.

    State Scholarships (Means Test)
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of Education whether, in view of the majority Report of the Anderson Committee, he will now recommend the abolition of parental contributions for students receiving awards from public funds.
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Minister of Education what decision has been

    2551
    reached on the recommendations of the Anderson Committee concerning parental means tests for university students.
    Mr. John Hallasked the Minister of Education if he is prepared to accept the majority Report of the Anderson Committee that the means test on university awards be abolished.
    Sir D. Eccles: I shall very shortly announce a radical revision of the present means test, to be brought in by the autumn of 1961. This is without prejudice to the abolition of the means test if that, on full examination, should turn out to be required.
    Mr. Wall: Does that Answer mean that it is possible that the means test may be abolished by the date given by my right hon. Friend if his inquiries lead him to think that that is desirable?
    Sir D. Eccles: It is hard for me to say, because the inquiries will have to be very extensive in order to find out the probable full cost of abolition having regard to the expansion of full-time higher education.
    Mrs. White: Can the Minister give us some idea how he is to conduct these inquiries, because it surely must be rather difficult to know how many parents in future will be liable? Therefore, should not he decide this on the matter of principle rather than on a matter of statistical computation? It seems to me that this is a matter which should be decided on principle and does not merit further investigation than has already been carried out by the Committee under the very competent chairmanship of Sir Colin Anderson.
    Sir D. Eccles: The Committee looked only at the university aspect of this problem. There are, as the hon. Lady knows, courses comparable with university courses. We have to consider what our expansion plans are.
    Mr. Hall: Has my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to the letter from the president-elect of the National Union of Students, which appeared in the Daily Telegraph, in which he pointed out that basically the present system amounts to a second system of taxation on the parents of those children selected for university?
    2552
    Will my right hon. Friend bear that in mind when considering the total abolition of the means test?
    Sir D. Eccles: I think that the revision will go a good way to help such students.
    Dr. King: Will the right hon. Gentleman also bear in mind that one of the most important reasons is what I regard as a moral reason, namely, that young undergraduates who have won their way to college are earning their living as much as other young people and that they have a right to be considered as adults and resent being kept financially dependent on their parents when they reach young manhood and womanhood?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes; I have that consideration in mind.

    National Association of Schoolmasters
    7. Captain Pilkingtonasked the Minister of Education when he received the last request from the National Association of Schoolmasters for recognition on the Burnham Committee.
    Sir D. Eccles: In January last, when I received a deputation from the Association.
    Captain Pilkington: Is not the size of this association a very significant factor? Will my right hon. Friend do what he can to use his determined diplomacy to try to get agreement with all concerned in this matter?
    Sir D. Eccles: It is not the size of the association which qualifies it for inclusion on the Committee. It is whether it represents a type of school which is not on the Committee. The reasons for thinking that all types of schools were already represented were given on 14th April last in an Adjournment debate, and those reasons appear to me to hold good today.
    Miss Herbison: Is the Minister aware that the sole purpose of this organisation is to oppose the rate for the job? Will he continue to ensure that the Government do not give it representation on this Committee or any other one?
    Captain Pilkington: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the hon. Lady is quite mistaken? She should look up the facts.
    Miss Herbison: I know the facts.
    Sir D. Eccles: The association has had that purpose in the past. It often gives advice on aspects of education other than simply pay.
    Mr. John Hall: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I am assured by representatives of the association that it no longer has that particular purpose in mind?

    National Council for Supply of Teachers Overseas
    Captain Pilkingtonasked the Minister of Education from which organisations he has invited nominations for the National Council for the Supply of Teachers Overseas.
    Sir D. Eccles: Nominations were invited from associations representing teachers and their employers in the United Kingdom and from a number of bodies, including the churches, which are concerned with oversea recruitment. The constitution of the Council is set out in my Department's Circular No. 10/60, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.
    Captain Pilkington: In view of the fact that the National Association of Schoolmasters is the second biggest organising body of teachers in this country, should not it have been asked, too?
    Sir D. Eccles: No, I do not think so, because the overseas demand is for teachers to teach in secondary schools and technical colleges, and so on. Demand is all for grammar school teachers and graduate teachers. If my hon. and gallant Friend will look at the composition of the Committee, he will see that the N.U.T., which has 180,000 members, is given only two places out of 12.

    School Building Programme
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Education if he will publish full details of the local authority school building programmes valued at £170 million which he has received for the year 1962–63; and if he will make a statement on the methods whereby he proposes to cut these programmes to a national total of £60 million.
    Sir D. Eccles: No, Sir, my Department has already authorised the programme for 1962–63 after considering every individual project on its merits.
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    The local education authorities review the priorities with my department and those projects which are most urgently needed are given a place in the programme.
    Mr. Swingler: Was it not a shameful thing for the Minister to suggest to Conservative councillors at Scarborough that they should trim their school building proposals just to suit his political convenience? Should not the people themselves be allowed to judge by the publication of the proposals of the local education authorities and publication of the system whereby the Minister disagrees with the proposals put forward by local education authorities and cuts them down?
    Sir D. Eccles: I think that local education authorities do considerable harm when they put forward proposals which they themselves know very well are far beyond what they can hope to get and what they can carry out.
    Mr. Swingler: What is the evidence for that? Cannot the Minister allow the people to judge whether extravagant proposals are being put forward by local education authorities by publishing the proposals made? Cannot people judge whether they are urgent or necessary? Why not do that?

    Staffordshire
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Education the values of the school building programmes submitted to him by the Staffordshire authority for 1961–62 and 1962–63; and the values of the programmes he proposes to approve.
    Sir D. Eccles: No separate proposals were made for 1961–62; proposals for 1962–63 amounted to about £5¼ million. In other words, Staffordshire, with a population of less than 1 million, applied for one-tenth of the total programme for England and Wales. I have approved programmes of about £1¾ million in each year.
    Mr. Swingler: Although the Minister may think that he is scoring a good point there, will he kindly take into account the terrible legacy of neglect of schools in Staffordshire in the last quarter of a century? Will he kindly come to Staffordshire and look at some

    2555
    of the schools and consult on the spot the local representatives on the education authorities about whether their proposals are necessary and desirable?
    Sir D. Eccles: I know that there are urgent needs in Staffordshire. That is why the Staffordshire programme is more than its proportionate share of the England and Wales programme.
    Mr. Swingler: It is not enough.
    Mr. Dudley Williams: Can my right hon. Friend state the average expenditure during the time that the party opposite formed the Government of the day?
    Sir D. Eccles: Not without notice.

    Housekeepers and Institutional Managers (Training)
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Minister of Education whether he is aware of the shortage of training facilities and trained personnel in the field of housekeeping posts and institutional managers; and what steps he is taking to overcome the present position.
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir. I shall shortly be sending a memorandum to the local education authorities and colleges about revised arrangements proposed by the Institutional Management Association. I shall ask for co-operation in making the new facilities available to match the increased number of school leavers during the next few years. I will send a copy of the memorandum to my hon. Friend.
    Dame Irene Ward: While thanking my right hon. Friend for being so co-operative and forthcoming in this important matter, may I ask whether he is quite satisfied that he can get all the money he wants from the Treasury, which does not seem to know very much about these household problems of the need of properly trained institutional managers, caterers, and so on?
    Sir D. Eccles: Concerning courses which we are putting on in association with the technical colleges, I think it fair to say that I am being given the money I want.

    Cornwall
    Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Education for what year he proposes to sanction the building of secondary
    2556
    schools cut out of the 1962–63 programme submitted by the Cornwall Education Committee.
    Sir D. Eccles: Of the three proposals in question, I have promised one in 1963–64 and one in 1964–65. As I have not yet compiled the programme for these two years, I cannot say whether the third will be included or not.
    Mr. Hayman: Will the Minister take into account that he has cut out from the 1962–63 programme a mixed grammar school at Falmouth and that some parts of the accommodation in the Falmouth Grammar School for Girls are a disgrace to the nation? Will he try to see that a new grammar school for Falmouth is provided as quickly as possible?
    Sir D. Eccles: I will do my best.
    Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Education why he reduced the school building programme proposed by the Cornwall Education Committee for 1962–63 from £840,000 to £130,000.
    Sir D. Eccles: Although I appreciate the importance which the authority attaches to the projects not approved, they are in my view less urgent than the projects I approved in other areas.
    Mr. Hayman: May I remind the Minister that a few minutes ago he said that for Staffordshire, with a population of 1 million, he had sanctioned a £1¼ million building programme, whereas for Cornwall, which has a population of more than one-third of a million, he has sanctioned only £130,000, which is about half of the programme for 1961–62? Will the right hon. Gentleman look at this again to see whether something better cannot be done?
    Sir D. Eccles: The reason is that Cornwall has got on so well in the past. Cornwall has done very well with reorganisation and there is a good deal more leeway to be made up in Staffordshire.
    Mr. Awbery: In view of the fact that the majority of the programmes of expenditure submitted to the Minister by local authorities are reduced by his Department, will he tell us whether it is his predetermined policy to reduce every estimate that is sent to him by local authorities?
    Sir D. Eccles: As I think the hon. Member knows, we have a continuing building programme for schools, which is running now at about £60 million a year. Therefore, if local authorities submit proposals for three times that amount, I am bound to make some selection.
    Dr. King: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that anyone who, as I have recently done, has seen the magnificent work which Cornwall is doing towards ending the backlog and, above all, abolishing the all-age school, would urge him to take note of the representations which my hon. Friend the Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Mr. Hayman) is making on behalf of the need to step up the programme that the right hon. Gentleman is willing to give to Cornwall, which is eager to get on with the job?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes.

    School Leaving Dates
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Minister of Education what conclusion he has reached on the number of school leaving dates in secondary schools.
    Sir D. Eccles: The consultations are nearly completed and I hope to make a statement before Christmas.

  SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH

    Shipbuilding (Report)
    Mr. Albuasked the Minister of Education, as representing the Minister for Science, whether he has yet decided to publish the report by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research on shipbuilding.
    Mr. Rankinasked the Minister of Education, as representing the Minister for Science, when he proposes to publish the report of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research on the shipbuilding industry; and if he will make a statement.
    Sir D. Eccles: The report, which was prepared by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, is the subject of confidential discussions between the Council and representatives of the Ministry of Transport, and the industry.
    2558
    The question of publication, which is one for the Council, will not arise so long as these discussions are in progress.
    Mr. Albu: Does not the Minister think that it would be preferable to have this report published so that the criticisms could be answered point by point rather than have continued general criticisms of the industry and these rather vague and general replies?
    Sir D. Eccles: The object of these reports is to produce action to make an industry more efficient. Therefore, the publication has to be considered in the light of the discussions with the industry on future action.
    Mr. Rankin: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that this report has been very liberally leaked? Many of us believe that if was deliberately leaked. Does the right hon. Gentleman tell us that the attacks on the shipbuilding industry with regard to bad relationships, lack of standardisation and the quality of management, as reported in The Times, are not correct and not in keeping with the report?
    Sir D. Eccles: The report in The Times that I saw purported to give the views of the D.S.I.R. about the shipping industry. Since those views are still under discussion now with the industry, it cannot be said to be correct in any way.
    Dame Irene Ward: Is it not most unfair that a report of this kind, whether it leaked or not, should be allowed to be presented to the world, with all its repercussions throughout the world, when people who are really interested in this matter do not know what it is all about? This has caused the greatest consternation and anxiety, and I think that it is about time that the Government let us know what it is all about. I am not particularly concerned with the Director of Scientific and Industrial Research. For all I know, he may be worse than the report.
    Mrs. White: Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that, in addition to all these leaks which have caused very considerable disquiet, many people are asking questions about the wisdom of the Government in offering a very large subsidy to the Cunard Company at a

    2559
    time when there is so much public disquiet about the general state of the shipbuilding industry?
    Sir D. Eccles: That is another question, but perhaps I could say in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) that the Council intends to publish a statement as soon as these discussions with the industry have been brought to a conclusion, and I would ask the House to wait for that statement.

    Parsons and Marine Engineering Turbine Research and Development Association
    Mr. Albuasked the Minister of Education, as representing the Minister for Science, what grant was made in the current year, and what grant it is proposed to make in the next financial year, to Parsons and Marine Engineering Turbine Research and Development Association.
    Sir D. Eccles: The grant to the Association in the current financial year will amount to £70,000 in consideration of the fact that industry will have raised £210,000. The grant for next year will be on the same terms.
    Mr. Albu: Is the Minister absolutely certain that the rules of this organisation allow the full play of technical and economic competition?
    Sir D. Eccles: My noble Friend has this in mind and the D.S.I.R. is to review the terms of the grant as part of the investigation it is making into research and development work in the industry.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Llanelly Steel Company
    Mr. J. Griffithsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the reasons why, and the terms upon which, the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency have sold the Llanelly Steel Company (1907), Ltd., to Messrs. Duport, Ltd.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Anthony Barber): The Agency has a statutory obligation to dispose of its present holdings in return for adequate consideration. The price realised for the Llanelly Company was
    2560
    £1,750,000. In view of the company's revenue position in recent years I am satisfied that this price was adequate.
    Mr. Griffiths: Is the Minister aware that there is deep concern—I hope, on all sides—that this means that £1½ million of public money has gone down the drain? If he recalls the row which his side of the House made about Gambia eggs, this loss is more than the loss on Gambia eggs. Is the hon. Gentleman telling the House that for a public investment of well over £3 million, the best offer he had was £1¾ million and that, therefore, because of the policy of the Government in proceeding with denationalisation, the public and the taxpayer have lost £1¼ million? Does the Minister propose to give us the full facts of all this, including all the offers that were made and the reason why the Agency has lost £1½ million of public money on this transaction?
    Mr. Barber: The fact is that since the Iron and Steel Act, 1953, the offer by the purchasers, Messrs, Duport, Ltd., has been the only firm offer received by the Agency. I should have thought that it was generally agreed that what a company is worth, apart from its break-up value, is governed by what it can earn. The undoubted fact—the right hon. Gentleman will know the figures—is that over recent years the company's profit-earning capacity has been most unfortunate. Indeed, over the last seven years its average profit after depreciation but before interest and taxation was only just over £19,000 and in both 1958 and 1959 it made losses, in the first year of £176,000 and in the second year of £53,000.
    Mr. Griffiths: I will not dispute that Duport's, a reputable firm, has paid what it thinks is a fair and full price for the purchase, but that does not absolve the Minister from being responsible for the fact that over £3 million of public money was put into this concern and that, therefore, we have lost £1½ million. Does the hon. Gentleman propose to give us a full report of how this money came to be lost?
    Mr. Barber: Certainly, if the right hon. Gentleman has any further specific questions to ask, I will do my best to answer them. The fact is that the purchase price was governed largely by

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    the trading profits and losses in the last two years of the company. I should have thought that this was one of the main factors to be taken into consideration.
    Mr. Mitchison: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is grave public anxiety about the adequacy of the consideration not only in this case but in other recent cases? Ought he not to publish the considerations and any advice which have led him to suppose that the price accepted was adequate? At present, there is a general opinion that public assets are being sold at a loss simply to get rid of them.
    Mr. Barber: With due respect to the hon. and learned Gentleman, that last statement is absolute nonsense. If the price which was agreed in respect of the sale had not been adequate, I should have thought that we would have had at least one firm offer in excess of it during the seven years since 1953.
    Mr. Griffiths: Because of the public importance of this matter and the fact that the House is entitled to have a full account of how the public have come to lose £1½ million, I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Taxation
    Mr. Peytonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what percentage of the gross national income was taken in taxation in each of the last three financial years; and how those figures compare with the United States of America, Western Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, and Italy.
    Mr. Barber: As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Peyton: May I ask my hon. Friend whether those figures, which I have not yet seen, do not indicate that the Government in this country are a good deal more rapacious in their demands on the taxpayer than are the Governments of any of the other countries mentioned in the Question? Will not my hon. Friend and his right hon. and learned Friend give careful consideration to the question whether the penal rate of taxation is not mutilating the competitive power of the country and doing a good deal of damage to our export trade?
    Mr. Barber: My right hon. and learned Friend has already said, a short time ago, that he takes the view that taxation in this country is too high. It is, however, fair to point out that if one looks at the percentage of gross national product at factor cost which is taken in taxation, the figure for 1959 was 29·5 per cent., and for 1951 it was 34·2 per cent. So at least we are making some progress.
    Mr. Jay: Will the Minister also circulate the corresponding figures for Sweden, Norway and Denmark, which, for some reason, were omitted from the Question?
    Mr. Barber: If the right hon. Gentleman will put down a Question I will do SO.
    Following is the reply:
    The table below shows total revenue from direct and indirect taxes as a percentage of the gross national product at factor cost for the calendar years 1957, 1958 and 1959 for the United Kingdom and for 1957 and 1958 for the other countries mentioned. 1959 figures for these countries are not yet available on a comparable basis. The figures include both Central Government and local taxes, since the distinction between central and local taxation varies from one country to another. Social security contributions have not been included as taxes.

    —

    1957

    1958

    1959

    United Kingdom

    …

    29·5

    29·4

    29·5

    United States

    …

    25·2

    24·5

    —

    Western Germany

    …

    28·1

    27·9

    —

    France

    …

    26·9

    28·1

    —

    Belgium

    …

    17·6

    17·7

    —

    Holland

    …

    24·6

    22·6

    —

    Italy

    …

    22·3

    22·2

    —

    British Museum
    Mr. Rankinasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make sufficient provision in next year's Estimates to enable the keepers of the British Museum to exhibit on appropriate occasions valuable collections now locked up in the Print Room.
    Mr. Barber: It is for the Trustees and not for my right hon. Friend to decide what exhibitions to mount within the funds available. Parts of the collection not on exhibition at any particular time are easily accessible to the public.
    Mr. Rankin: Is the hon. Member not aware that there are certain collections which, either because of the terms of a bequest or for some other reasons, are not able to be exhibited in Great Britain? Is he aware that we have held international exhibitions of great paintings and pictures from all over the world, yet we ourselves are unable to show certain masterpieces by great artists because of the fact that they are locked away in the Print Room? Cannot he do anything to remedy that situation? There is a cultural value in these exhibitions.
    Mr. Barber: The Museum authorities have told me that they would welcome suggestions from the hon. Member about any special part of the collection which he would like to see on exhibition. I would think that this is not a matter that one can go into in detail by way of Question and Answer, and if the hon. Member would get in touch with the Keeper of the Museum I am sure that he will be glad to discuss it with him.
    Mr. Rankin: Do not pass the buck.

    Iron and Steel Industry
    Colonel Lancasterasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will make a statement about the order of priority to be adopted by the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency in disposing of its holdings in the iron and steel industry.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): The Government have decided that in all the circumstances it is best at the present stage to give priority to the sale of the fixed interest securities which the Agency holds in companies already denationalised. The Agency is proceeding accordingly.
    Colonel Lancaster: Why is Richard Thomas & Baldwins not being sold? Does my right hon. Friend's Answer mean that the Government do not propose to dispose of this company?
    Mr. Lloyd: No, Sir. It is still—to use the wards of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power in a debate in June—
    "the firm intention and, indeed … the confident hope that the work of the Agency will be substantially complete."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th June, 1960; Vol. 625, c. 992.]
    by the end of this Parliament.
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    That certainly includes Richard Thomas & Baldwins. But, as my right hon. Friend said in answer to a Question which appears in the OFFICIAL REPORT today, Richard Thomas & Baldwins is engaged in very extensive developments, and it has became clear that its sale should be deferred until these are nearer to maturity.
    Mr. Marquand: As the Chancellor's Answer means that many firms now wholly owned by the Agency are to have a respite and will not be sold for same time to come, will he instruct the Iron and Steel Holding and Realisation Agency that it is the sole owner of these concerns and that it will not do for Ministers to say that they are selling them for a song because their profits have gone down? The Agency is the manager of these firms. Will the right hon. Gentleman remind it that it has a duty to look after them properly and to see that they are equipped with new capital to enable them to carry on?
    Mr. Lloyd: I am certain that the Agency is aware of its duties in this matter. In the matter of sales one has to pay regard to the interests of the concerns themselves, and in this case I believe that it is to the interest of the concern that it should be sold. In this case I think the Agency acted correctly. The point is that when these firms are handed back to private enterprise the State still gets over half the profits they make.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Do I gather from the right hon. and learned Gentleman that Richard Thomas & Baldwins, under public ownership, is doing so well, and is expanding in contrast to its competitors in private ownership, that he has come to the conclusion that no national purpose would be served by disposiing of it?
    Mr. Lloyd: No, that is not at all the inference to be drawn. The fact is that the company would have to find substantial sums for its development in addition to the figure of £150 million already mentioned. There is to be a loan of about £70 million from the Ministry of Power, and the Agency has other funds, but not enough to enable this development to take place. We propose to sell its fixed interest securities so that the Agency should have the money to enable this development to take place.
    Mr. Jay: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman saying that as soon as the Government have lent Richard Thomas & Baldwins another £70 million it will sell the company?
    Mr. Lloyd: It is our intention to sell the company. [Laughter.] Certainly. We have never concealed the fact that we were intending to sell it. We have said so time and again. At election after election we have said that we intended to return this industry to private enterprise. The point is that when it goes back to private enterprise I as Chancellor of the Exchequer will still have an interest of over 50 per cent. in it.
    Mr. Griffiths: Can we have an assurance that when Richard Thomas & Baldwins is sold to private enterprise—when it will have this £70 million of public money—we shall not suffer the proportionate loss which has been revealed by the Economic Secretary on the sale of the Llanelly Steel Company?
    Mr. Lloyd: I very much doubt whether there will be any loss.

    Treasury (Publications)
    Mr. Peytonasked the Chancellor of the Exhecquer what recent additions he has made to the list of publications which are required to be read in the course of their duty by officers of his Department.
    Mr. Barber: There is no such list.
    Mr. Peyton: Will my hon. Friend start a list with the book "The Law and the Profits" by Professor Parkinson? Does not he think that the reading of such a book would produce a refreshingly new view in the dusty labyrinths of the Treasury about the evils of high Government expenditure and the ways in which it can be effectively controlled, and cause the Treasury in general to view penal taxation with the same odium as does the taxpayer?
    Mr. Barber: There is a copy of Professor Parkinson's book in the Treasury library, and when I inquired about it I was told that it was in great demand and that there is a waiting list. I gather that my hon. Friend is concerned about Government expenditure. In view of what he has said, however, I hope that he will not object if I consult my right hon. and learned Friend in order
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    to obtain his authority for the necessary further Government expenditure required to purchase an additional copy of the book.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Motor Industry
    Mr. Edelmanasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has considered the effect of his expansion plans for the motor industry on employment in Coventry and the Midlands generally; and what modifications he will introduce into his plans, in view of the present threat of redundancy in the older established areas.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. John Rodgers): The projects concerned are part of the longer term expansion envisaged by the industry itself. It would be a shortsighted policy to allow present difficulties to frustrate the substantial contribution which the industry proposes to make to areas of relatively high and persistent unemployment. These proposals carry out the intention of Parliament as expressed in the Local Employment Act.
    Mr. Edelman: Is the Minister aware that the industry's plan to treble output by 1962 is encouraging false hopes of prosperity in depressed areas, while deepening the anxiety of the workers in the older established areas whose jobs are already threatened? Is he further aware that the motor manufacturers have had the cushion of very high profits in the last few years, but there is no such protection for redundant workers? In those circumstances, will he consult the trade unions again, as well as the manufacturers, in order to see whether the present project is an economic one?
    Mr. Rodgers: I prefer to take the motor industry's own view of its future rather than the hon. Member's view. As for his second point, I would remind him that while it is true that there are at present about 18,000 workers on short-time in the Midlands, the unemployment figure for Coventry is only 1·1 per cent., which is much less that the national average, whereas the areas which will benefit from the expansion of the motor industry—Scotland, South Wales and Merseyside—have an unemployment rate many times greater than Coventry's.
    Mr. Edelman: But is the hon. Gentleman aware that, despite the fact that he prefers to take the industry's forecast rather than mine, motor manufacturers in the past have consistently been proved wrong in their calculations? Is he further aware that the record of the industry is one of seasonal unemployment, which has been rectified only by the Labour Government policy in 1945? In those circumstances, and in view of the fact that even today one worker in seven is unemployed, on short-time or on strike against redundancy, is it not right that the motor manufacturers' miscalculations should be re-examined in the light of present conditions in order to see whether the plans which are being made are realistic?
    Mr. Rodgers: No, Sir. I know that there have been seasonal ups and downs in this industry, but the general progress has been remarkable and I believe that the industry has a very fine future.

    Export Trade
    Mr. Shinwellasked the President of the Board of Trade whether the measures adopted by the Government have resulted in any improvement in export trade; and what further measures are contemplated.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: It is too soon for results to be reflected in the Trade Returns but there has been a substantial increase in the volume of inquiries at the Board of Trade from firms desirous of exporting. Measures announced in recent weeks are improvements in the facilities offered by E.C.G.D., and the formation of the Export Council for Europe.
    We continue to keep this whole matter under review.
    Mr. Shinwell: Does the Minister's answer mean that the Government's efforts have so far failed? It is all very well to talk about inquiries and about the volume of inquiries increasing, but the volume of exports is not increasing. Is not that the vital consideration and would it not be desirable on the part of the Government, apart from exhortations, appeals and the like to exporters, to stimulate export trades as far as they can by removing some of the restrictions, such as the credit squeeze, which have an indirect bearing on the export trade?
    Mr. Rodgers: Naturally we are all anxious to do what we can to boost our exports, which is vitally necessary, and we are taking such steps as we can to stimulate manufacturers to get on with this vital job of exporting.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is not this stimulating having no effect, no tangible results? Is it not desirable now to make a new approach, perhaps with the removal of some of the restrictions which have an indirect effect on our exports? Surely, if one pushes up the internal trade of the country it has some effect on the export trade?
    Mr. Rodgers: I should remind the right hon. Gentleman that there has been some recovery in August and September on the March and April level, but it is much too early to say whether this represents the resumption of a rise.

    Forms
    Sir L. Plummerasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) what is the cost of printing the forms which are to be used under his Department's Order under Section 10 of the Statistics of Trade Act, 1947, which is scheduled to become effective from January, 1961;
    (2) what is the expected annual cost of the administration of his Department's new Order which demands that British subjects shall fill in a new form when entering or leaving the United Kingdom by air, and which is to be effective from January, 1961.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: My right hon. Friend has not yet made the Order to which the hon. Member refers. He will not be responsible for its administration but he understands that the Departments concerned estimate that the cost of printing the cards will be about £500 a year and the cost of compiling and publishing the information obtained from them should not exceed £15,000. As the arrangements for distributing the cards to passengers have not yet been settled, no estimate of this handling cost is available.
    Sir L. PlummerWill the Minister consider, not on financial grounds but on the grounds of his own party's electoral policy, abolishing all these forms and stopping this nonsense straight away? What is the purpose of putting travellers through the misery of having to fill up

    2569
    these forms before they leave the country? If the forms are required for statistical purposes, why cannot the Minister get the information from the companies? Does not he appreciate that this is going to mean that people will have to get to the airports even earlier than now if they are to fill in these forms? What does he propose to say to the Airline Operators' Committee, representing twenty-six of the long-haulage airline operators who are now making it quite clear that they will not co-operate in the matter?
    Mr. Rodgers: None of us likes extra forms to fill in. I agree with the hon. Gentleman about that. But the main purposes for which this information is required are to assist in our estimates of balance of payments credits and debits arising from the movement of tourists and migrants; to provide information about emigrants from this country, in particular about the loss to this country through the emigration of skilled people; and to provide information about the immigration into this country of people from other parts of the Commonwealth. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that this is a very important object and that this is the best way of getting the information.

    Advance Factories
    Miss Herbisonasked the President of the Board of Trade what decision has now been made on the building of further advance factories; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer given by my right hon. Friend on 25th October to my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir Harry Legge-Bourke). In Scotland, we propose to take over seven of the fourteen buildings in the Admiralty depot at Carfin and to make two of the buildings, of about 26,500 sq. ft. each, ready for immediate industrial use; in addition, an advance factory of some 25,000 sq. ft. will be built elsewhere in Scotland, the exact location to be announced later.
    Miss Herbison: Can the Minister tell us when the decision will be made as to where this factory will be located, and when this is being considered will he take into account the views of the Secre-
    2570
    tary of State for Scotland and his regional controller at the Board of Trade Office for Scotland and try to ensure that it comes to my area, whose case has been before him so very often?
    Mr. Rodgers: The hon. Lady can rest assured that we will take into full consideration the views of the Secretary of State for Scotland and our controller for Scotland and that Shotts will not be overlooked. But it must be considered along with the claims of Greenock and Dumbarton, for example.

    Shotts Area
    Miss Herbisonasked the President of the Board of Trade what further action he proposes to take to bring new industry to the Shotts area, since its position has been seriously worsened by the proposed closure of its one remaining colliery.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: My right hon. Friend hopes that the Shotts area will benefit considerably from the substantial developments taking place at Bathgate and Newhouse, but we shall continue to try to bring further industry to Shotts itself.
    Miss Herbison: Is the Minister aware that, though he mentions two other areas in Scotland, there is not a single area in Scotland that has been as badly hit as this—Shotts, Newmains and Harthill—and that this last pit closure has brought great dismay to the area. Is he content to leave a once thriving area in this position in the future?
    Mr. Rodgers: No. We are very well aware of the problems in Shotts, as I have discussed with the hon. Lady on many occasions, and we shall try to direct new industry to it. Bathgate is within travel-too work distance of Shorts. B.M.C. hope to employ there 5,600 when fully in production. Newhouse, where Honeywell Controls have, on 24th October, announced the establishment of a large new factory to employ 800–1,000 people, is also within daily travelling distance.
    Miss Herbison: But surely the whole of that reply points to the fact that the Minister is quite content to leave this as a dormitory area if he wants to bring new industry. He and the President of the Board of Trade have already said that it is ideally situated for an ancillary industry and one way to ensure that is to have an advance factory in the area.
    Mr. Rodgers: As the hon. Lady knows, under consideration.

    Industrial Development, Isle of Sheppey
    Mr, P. Wellsasked the President of the Board of Trade how many applications have been received from industrialists contemplating the erection of factories or workshops on the Isle of Sheppey under the Distribution of Industry (Industrial Finance) Act, 1958, and the Local Employment Act, 1960; how many of these were for loans; how many were for grants; how many were for both grants and loans; and with what result.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: Twenty applications have been received for financial assistance in Sheppey under the Distribution of Industry (Industrial Finance) Act, 1958, and Local Employment Act, 1960. Of these, ten have been for loans, one for a grant and nine for both grants and loans. Nine of these applications have been rejected, and the remaining eleven are under consideration.
    Mr. Wells: Is the Minister aware that in the opinion of the people of Sheppey the assistance given is not nearly adequate or anything like they have the right to expect? Is he also aware that unemployment there is running around 7 per cent. and is increasing while at the same time industrialists who want to bring employment to the Isle of Sheppey are being told that they can receive no assistance though assistance will be granted if they go to Scotland? Will the Minister try to reverse this policy which is having a very disastrous effect on the Isle of Sheppey and is quite opposed to the promises and undertakings given when the closure of Sheerness Dockyard was announced.
    Mr. Rodgers: I admit that Sheppey has been unfortunate in the large number of applications which have been rejected, but there are projects coming along, such as Abbotts Laboratories and the Elmerd Manufacturing Company's factory, which should provide several hundred jobs. With regard to the second part of the question about not entertaining any further applications for assistance in the area, we have not actually removed Sheppey from the list and if our expectations are not fulfilled, then, of
    2572
    course, Sheppey will remain on the list and will receive further assistance.

    Newspaper Industry
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will refer to the attention of the Monopolies Commission the present situation in the newspaper industry.
    Mr. Dribergasked the President of the Board of Trade if, in view of the warning given by the Royal Commission on the Press, 1949, that a further concentration of newspaper ownership would be undesirable, he will consider asking the Monopolies Commission to investigate present trends towards Press monopoly, with particular reference to the closure of the News Chronicle, the Star, and the Empire News, and the links between certain newspaper groups and commercial television.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: Whatever view may be taken of recent events, there is no situation existing in relation to the national daily newspapers which falls within the scope of the Monopolies Commission.
    Mr. Thomson: Is the Minister aware that there is widespread public anxiety about the circumstances surrounding the closure of the News Chronicle, the Star and the Sunday Empire News and there is considerable hardship among workers in this industry? Is he also aware that there is a danger of further newspaper closures and that one of the specific recommendations of the Royal Commission on the Press was that if there were any further decrease in the number of national newspapers it ought to be a cause for anxiety on the part of the Government? If the Monopolies Commission is not a suitable body for dealing with this, will the Government consider setting up some other form of inquiry?
    Mr. Rodgers: It is always sad when any of these newspapers, national or local, goes under, but it is not a subject for the Monopolies Commission at all. Regarding the hon. Gentleman's references to the Royal Commission on the Press and its Report, I think that is more in regard to the local than the national Press.
    Hon. Members: No.
    Mr. Driberg: I am sorry, the Minister is quite wrong; I hope he will study his brief properly and look at paragraph 313 of the Report of the Royal Commission which refers only to national morning newspapers and says that a reduction in their number would not be contemplated without anxiety. Is he aware that the Royal Commission had the job of inquiring into monopolistic tendencies of the Press, which is also the job of the Monopolies Commission, surely, or it ought to be? Can he look at this again?
    Mr. Rodgers: I was not inadequately briefed and I actually had in front of me paragraph 313 Which was referred to by the hon. Gentleman. He might also have quoted paragraphs 606, 607 and 608, Which bear out what I said, that it is more concerned with the local than with the national Press.
    Mr. Jay: In view of the Government's great passion for decentralisation and public accountability in other spheres, are they really happy about what is going on in the newspaper industry?
    Mr. Rodgers: That is always of great public concern.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: In view of the fact that eleven years have passed since the Royal Commission expressed alarm about the tendencies expressed or indicated in Question No. 38, does not the Minister think it is time something was done to stop this headlong careering towards totalitarianism? Is it not a public danger which should be dealt with immediately?
    Mr. Rodgers: I cannot accept the hon. and learned Gentleman's description of what is happening as a headlong flight into totalitarianism.
    Mr. Wilkins: May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to reconsider this matter? Recognising that newspapers, directly or indirectly, affect the opinions of people in this country, is not it a dangerous trend that we should be going headlong towards what will be a Press dictatorship unless we are careful? Would not the hon. Gentleman think about this again and have an inquiry made into the circumstances of what has been taking place?
    Mr. Thorpe: Would not the Minister consider whether there has not been a
    2574
    case within the meaning of Section 3 (2) of the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices Act, 1948, whereby two people have deliberately restricted the supply of newspapers in this country—one by a straightforward commercial enterprise and the other one I will not mention—whereby there are now only two evening newspapers left in this country—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, in London."]—there are now only two national evening newspapers left in this country, or in the London area?
    Will he bear in mind that Section 3 refers to goods restricted as to one-third being in the hands of two people? We are now faced with 50 per cent. of the London evening newspapers being in the hands of two people. Surely this is a case for reference under Section 15 to the Commission to produce a report to the Minister, because there has been a deliberate restriction of supply in this country by extremely underhand means.
    Mr. Rodgers: The point about possible reference of the situation in London is one which will be borne in mind when my right hon. Friend considers new references to the Monopolies Commission.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Where do we stand now? First, the Minister said that there was no possibility of raising this under the Monopolies Commission and now, apparently, he is saying that there is. Can he clear the position and say whether in fact it is the intention of the Board of Trade to refer this matter to the Monopolies Commission? If not, does he really say that the Government have no interest and no responsibility to take any action in this matter? If they accept responsibility, what are they going to do about it?
    Mr. Rodgers: I certainly did not say that the whole subject was not one which could be referred to the Commission. I merely said that at least so far as the national dailies were concerned it did not meet the necessary condition about one-third of a particular description of goods being in the hands of one person or group. This may apply in the case of the London evening papers. That obviously is a point which would be considered by my right hon. Friend when he was considering further references to the Commission.
    Mr. Jay: Would not the Minister agree that it is beyond dispute that more than one-third of the London evening newspaper circulation is under a single control?
    Mr. Rodgers: I think that is not disputed. But right hon. and hon. Gentlemen must recognise that it is not for the Government to say whether people should be forced to start new papers or keep in existence papers which are already losing money.

    Imports
    Mr. Jayasked the President of the Board of Trade what has been the percentage increase to date this year in manufactured imports, and other imports into the United Kingdom respectively.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: In the first 9 months of 1960, the value of United Kingdom imports of manufactures including those destined for further processing, was 44 per cent. more than in the first 9 months of 1959. The increase in imports of other goods was nearly 7 per cent.
    Mr. Jay: Do not these rather striking figures show that the present balance of payments trouble is not so much due to flagging exports as to premature decontrol by the Government of unnecessary imports?
    Mr. Rodgers: The main factors leading to an increase in imports this year are, first, the increasing demand for consumer goods and capital goods and, secondly, a rapid rise in stocks. As to the general policy of liberalisation, we believe it is in the best interests of the country to maintain a policy of removing arbitrary barriers to trade.
    Mr. Jay: How does the Minister explain the much greater rise in manufactured goods than either raw materials or food?
    Mr. Rodgers: Many of the manufactured goods, more than half of them, were for further processing.

    Jarrow
    Mr. Fernyhoughasked the President of the Board of Trade what recent talks he has had with the Pressed Steel Company about their proposal to establish a new factory in Jarrow.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: The Department has discussed with the Company the situation arising from the breakdown of negotiations between them and the trade unions. There are no grounds on which my right hon. Friend could intervene, and the work which would have been done at Jarrow will now be carried out at the company's plant at Linwood in Scotland.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Does the Minister appreciate what a bitter disappointment this was to the people of Jarrow? Is he aware that many of us believe that this company never intended to come to Jarrow and that it seized upon a minor difference in order to make a major decision which might have very harmful consequences in Jarrow? Why was he so ready to grant an I.D.C. for the company to transfer to another area before he had satisfied himself that the difficulties which had arisen in Jarrow between the two sides could not be reconciled?
    Mr. Rodgers: It is a great disappointment not only to the people of Jarrow, which I fully recognise, but also to the Board of Trade, that this development did not take place in Jarrow. It is not for me or my right hon. Friend to express an opinion on the breakdown of the negotiations between the Pressed Steel Company and the A.E.U., which is the real cause why the company decided to go ahead at Linwood. We could not refuse an I.D.C. for Linwood, which is also a development district.
    Mr. Speir: Without in any way wishing to minimise the damage done to the prospects of employment on Tyneside by the intransigence of the A.E.U., whose local branch refused to accept methods of work study already accepted in Scotland and the South, may I ask whether my hon. Friend will agree that, by and large, over the past few years labour relations on Tyneside have been extremely good? Would he not also say that if new industries are to be brought to the Tyneside area the local people must be prepared to employ new methods?
    Mr. Rodgers: I agree with both parts of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. It should be put on record that the record of labour in north-east England is extremely good, as good as, if

    2577
    not better than, in other parts of the country. At the same time, it is equally important that the unions should recognise the necessity of adopting up-to-date methods.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Is not the Minister aware that this firm was wanting to introduce a practice in Jarrow which did not operate in its other factories—
    Mr. Speir: Nonsense.
    Mr. Fernyhough: —and that the people of Tyneside were not prepared to be the guinea pigs without being given certain assurances? It is not for the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir) to denigrate the trade unions in the North-East. They can look after themselves, and he should try to help them.
    Mr. Rodgers: I do not think it would be wise for me to go into the pros and cons of the dispute between the firm and the union, but the outcome is one greatly to be regretted.
    Mr. Speir: In view of the very misleading statements made by the hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough), I shall take the first opportunity of raising the matter on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Fernyhoughasked the President of the Board of Trade if, in view of the high and persistent level of unemployment in Jarrow, he will state what new sources of employment are likely to be available in the locality in the near future.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: Between 1,000 and 2,000 new jobs should accrue from new projects and extensions in the Tyne South-East Employment Exchange District, which includes Jarrow and Hebburn; the majority of these should mature within the next two years. We are continuing to do all we can to encourage new industry to go to the North-East, and, as the hon. Member will be aware, my right hon. Friend announced on Tuesday our intention of building an advance factory of about 40,000 square feet on the borders of Jarrow and South Shields.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Can the hon. Gentleman be a little more forthcoming and tell us at what firms these new jobs will arise? Can he say whether he has any employer in sight for the advance factory which he proposes to build?
    Mr. Rodgers: The 2,000 jobs in prospect include 950 for Vickers-Armstrong and Mercantile Dry Dock. These firms are going ahead with their extensions, but the exact time when they will come into fruition depends on the building programme and the future of the shipbuilding and ship-repairing industries. The other 1,000 include a number for Paton and Baldwin, and will be mainly of female labour.

OIL BARGES, SHARPNESS (COLLISION)
Mr. Loughlin(by Private Notice) asked the Minister of Transport whether he has any statement to make about the collision of two tankers on the River Severn as a result of which lives were lost and a number of persons received serious injuries.
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Ernest Marples): I have ordered a preliminary inquiry into this collision under the provisions of Section 465 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and this is proceeding as expeditiously as possible.
At this stage, it appears that late on Tuesday evening, 25th October, two oil barges missed the Sharpness harbour entrance in fog and collided. They were the "Arkendale H", carrying fuel oil from Swansea to Sharpness, and the "Wastdale H", carrying petrol from Avonmouth to Sharpness. The collision resulted in an explosion and fire and breaching of the Severn Railway Bridge which carries a single line railway between Berkeley Road and Lydney. Both barges are now stranded on a sandbank some three-quarters of a mile above the damaged bridge.
Rescue measures were carried out as promptly as possible by the Gloucestershire police, assisted by port workers and volunteers. Yesterday, a search was made by an R.A.F. helicopter.
Of the eight men on board, the skippers of both vessels and the engineer of the "Arkendale H" are survivors. Two bodies have been recovered. I am sure the House will wish to join me in expressing deep sympathy with the families of those who have lost their lives.
Mr. Loughlin: May I express fully my appreciation of what the Minister has

2579
said, particularly in his sympathy for the relatives of people who lost their lives? I thank him for the statement and I hope that the House will join with him in expressing that sympathy.
I appreciate the importance of the loss of life and I wonder whether, in looking at this matter, it will be possible for the Minister to indicate whether relatives of those who have lost their lives in this terrible disaster can be assisted in some way by the Government?
Mr. Marples: Provision for the families of the men who lost their lives is the responsibility of the National Insurance authorities under the National Insurance Act, or under the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Scheme. I think that they will be looked after in the usual way.
Mr. Awbery: What steps have been taken to prevent the crude oil flowing down with the current to the channel and covering the beaches on the South Wales and Cornish coasts?
Mr. Marples: We shall look at that problem. We have someone on the spot looking at it and we shall see what can be done.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Mr. Paget: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do not know whether you observed that on Tuesday we had two Questions to the Prime Minister, and we had two yesterday and none today. This process of Questions seems to be becoming slower and slower. Is there anything that you can do about it?
Mr. Speaker: I am obliged to the hon. and learned Member. He gives me a cue at the end of this Session to renew my standard plea to hon. Members
2580
to help me in making progress with Questions. Today, I suspect that the fault was largely mine in allowing too many supplementary questions, but on no occasion when I stopped a topic was there any lack of hon. Members seeking to ask them.
Mr. Lipton: Could consideration be given by the Leader of the House to the suggestion which I made that Prime Minister's Questions should start at No.—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: One.
Mr. Lipton: —No. 30, or, I accept the suggestion, No. 1, on one or two days a week?
Mr. Shinwell: Have I not on previous occasions suggested that the Prime Minister's Questions might be brought forward? I do not suggest that they should start at No. 1 or No. 10, but that they should start at a quarter-past three. That would be reasonable. I am sure that it must be embarrassing to the Prime Minister, who is anxious to furnish information to the House, that he is prevented from doing so by an out-of-date regulation. Surely something of that sort could be done. The Prime Minister could prevent this difficulty himself if he so decided.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Will you not give consideration to the Prime Minister coming on to bat first, because that will give us an opportunity of bowling him out?
Mr. Hector Hughes: Does not the difficulty arise partly from the fact that Ministers have departed from the time-honoured custom of making statements involving long Answers at the end of Questions? Lately, the habit has grown of Ministers answering at inordinate length instead of postponing—

ROYAL ASSENT
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners;
The House went; and, having returned;
Mr. Speaker: I have to acquaint the House that the House has been to the House of Peers where a Commission under the Great Seal was read, giving the Royal Assent to:

1. Administration of Justice Act. 1960.

2. Professions Supplementary to Medicine Act, 1960.

3. Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act, 1960.

4. Noise Abatement Act, 1960.

5. Road Traffic (Driving of Motor Cycles) Act. 1960.

PROROGATION

  HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH
  Mr. Speaker: I have further to acquaint the House that the Lord High Chancellor, being one of the Royal Commissioners, delivered Her Majesty's Most Gracious Speech to both Houses of Parliament, in pursuance of Her Majesty's Commands, as follows:
  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons:
  I am deeply grateful for the many expressions of good will which came to me on the birth of My second Son. Prince Andrew. This year has also brought me the great happiness of My Sister's marriage.
  In the course of the year the friendships existing between My People in this country and peoples overseas have been reinforced by a number of visits.
  In April I had the special pleasure of welcoming to London the President of the French Republic and Madame de Gaulle. I have been happy to greet here their Majesties the King and Queen of Thailand and, ten days ago, the King and Queen of Nepal.
  I was glad that the President of Peru was able to meet members of My Family when he came here in February and that I was myself able to receive the President of the Argentine Republic.
  I was moved by the warmth and sincerity of the reception accorded to My Husband when he visited New York in June to open the British Exhibition.
  My Mother has visited the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland to open the great Kariba Dam. Both she and I were deeply affected by the enthusiastic welcome which she received throughout her journeys in the Federation.
  The visits of members of My Family to the Caribbean were a vivid reminder to all My Peoples in that area of their links with the Crown and with My People in the United Kingdom.
  My Government have supported the work of the United Nations and its agencies and are taking their full share in the work of the General Assembly.
  My Government have continued to play their full part in the North Atlantic Alliance and other regional pacts.
  They have continued to take part in the Geneva Conference on the Discontinuance of Nuclear Weapons Tests, in which progress has been made towards agreement on the prohibition of tests under effective international control. They played a notable rôle in the Ten-Nation Committee on Disarmament at Geneva and supported the resolution of the United Nations recommending the earliest possible resumption of international negotiations for disarmament.
  Meanwhile My Armed Forces have continued to contribute to peace and order throughout the world.
  By the signing of the Antarctic Treaty last December, the twelve Governments concerned, which include My own and those of the United States and the Soviet Union, have agreed to cooperate in the peaceful use of the Continent in the interests of science.
  I was most happy to meet, in May, the Prime Ministers and other representatives of Commonwealth countries. Their meeting revealed a wide measure of agreement on international problems, notably on the need to lessen world tensions and to promote the economic and cultural progress of the less-developed countries.
  I have given My Assent to an Act which established the independent Republic of Cyprus. Certain Sovereign Base Areas and other military facilities in the island are retained for the United Kingdom and My Government look forward to a long friendship with the new Republic.
  Two other countries for which My Government in the United Kingdom have hitherto been responsible have achieved independence. In June I withdrew My protection from the Somaliland Protectorate, confident that the long tradition of friendship between the British and Somali peoples will continue and flourish.
  This month Nigeria became the eleventh Member of the Commonwealth. I have shared in the joy with which that great country then received My Cousin, the Princess Alexandra. My
  2584
  Husband and I have very happy memories of our own visit to Nigeria five years ago and we, together with My Government and all My People in the United Kingdom, extend to My People there our warmest good wishes for the future.
  I have given My Assent to an Act which reflects the decision of the Government of Ghana to adopt a Republican Constitution.
  My Government in the United Kingdom have continued to give financial help to the less-developed countries, and in particular to Commonwealth countries, including loans and grants for development, welfare and reconstruction.
  Acts have been passed enabling the United Kingdom to take part in the Commonwealth Scholarship and Fellowship Plan and making possible a freer movement of students and teachers between this country and the rest of the Commonwealth.
  The Commonwealth Economic Consultative Council, which met in London in September, agreed to initiate a Special Commonwealth African Assistance Plan in order to give further help in raising the standards of life in less-developed Commonwealth countries in Africa.
  My Government have published their plan for My Overseas Civil Service, providing greater security for its members and making it easier for territories which achieve self-government to retain them in their employment.
  Members of the House of Commons:
  I thank you for the provision which you have made for the public services.
  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons:
  As part of their policy to assist the development of overseas countries, My Government have joined the new International Development Association and are contributing substantially to its resources.
  They have ratified the Convention establishing the European Free Trade Association, and have taken part in negotiations for remodelling the Organisation for European Economic Cooperation with the United States and Canada as full members.
  Support for home agriculture and for the fishing industry has been maintained. My Government have introduced improvement grants for horticultural producers and their co-operative marketing associations. They have brought to a successful conclusion the long campaign for the eradication of tuberculosis in cattle in this country.
  An Act has been passed to help to provide additional opportunities for employment in those areas where high and persistent unemployment exists or is threatened.
  My Government have announced a substantial increase in the road programme. An Act has been passed to facilitate enforcement of the law on road traffic and to amend the law on parking and traffic regulation.
  An Act has been passed to improve the arrangements for licensing air services and to ensure that all airline operators maintain high standards of safety.
  Effect has been given to the main recommendations of the Royal Commission on Betting, Lotteries and Gaming, by legislation providing for the registration of bookmakers, permitting the establishment of licensed betting offices, and replacing the outmoded law on gaming by provisions more acceptable to modern opinion.
  An Act has been passed which will give added protection to those who invest their savings in building societies.
  An Act has been passed to control the location and conditions of caravan sites and to strengthen the procedure for enforcing planning control in England and Wales.
  In Scotland the law on mental health has been modernised and new provision made for the care of those who are sick in mind.
  Measures have been taken to make legal aid and advice more widely available. The right of appeal to the House of Lords in criminal cases has been extended and the law relating to contempt of court has been amended.
  The law relating to charities in England and Wales has been consolidated and reformed, to enable the best use to be made of charitable resources for the benefit of the community.
  My Lords and Members of the House of Commons:
  I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may attend you.
  Then a Commission for Proroguing the Parliament was read; after which the Lord Chancellor said:
  "My Lords and Members of the House of Commons:
  By virtue of Her Majesty's Commission under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed, and now read, we do, in Her Majesty's Name and in obedience to Her Majesty's Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Tuesday, the first day of November, one thousand nine hundred and sixty, to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued until Tuesday, the first day of November, one thousand nine hundred and sixty."
  End of the First Session (opened 20th October, 1959) of the Forty-second Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in the Ninth Year of the Reign of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second.

EDUCATION
  Infant Classes, Wednesfield
  Infant Classes, Wednesfield
  Youth Service (Building Programme)
  Youth Service (Building Programme)
  Primary and Secondary Schools (Size of Classes)
  Primary and Secondary Schools (Size of Classes)
  Training College Students (Grants)
  Training College Students (Grants)
  Teacher Training Colleges
  Teacher Training Colleges
SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH
  Committee on the Management and Control of Research and Development
  Committee on the Management and Control of Research and Development
ATOMIC ENERGY
  Seismic Research
  Seismic Research
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Electrical Appliances and Fittings (Standards)
  Electrical Appliances and Fittings (Standards)
  Borax (Import Duty)
  Borax (Import Duty)
  Motor Industry
  Motor Industry
  Messrs. Napiers, Ayr
  Messrs. Napiers, Ayr
  Export Credits
  Export Credits
  Factory, Camborne
  Factory, Camborne
  Hire Purchase
  Hire Purchase
  MINISTER OF PLANNING
  MINISTER OF PLANNING
  CABINET OFFICE (SECURITY ARRANGEMENTS)
  CABINET OFFICE (SECURITY ARRANGEMENTS)
  GIBRALTAR
  GIBRALTAR
  CENTRAL AFRICAN FEDERATION (PRIME MINISTERS' COMMUNICATIONS)
  CENTRAL AFRICAN FEDERATION (PRIME MINISTERS' COMMUNICATIONS)
UNITED NATIONS
  Meeting (Prime Minister's Attendance)
  Meeting (Prime Minister's Attendance)
  China
  China
  DEFENCE COMMITTEE (MEETINGS)
  DEFENCE COMMITTEE (MEETINGS)
  OVERSEAS GOVERNMENTS (PROPAGANDA)
  OVERSEAS GOVERNMENTS (PROPAGANDA)
  EAST GERMAN BUSINESSMEN (VISITS TO BRITAIN)
  EAST GERMAN BUSINESSMEN (VISITS TO BRITAIN)
  POLARIS SUBMARINE BASE, SCOTLAND
  POLARIS SUBMARINE BASE, SCOTLAND
  BRITISH MUSEUM (CONSTITUTION)
  BRITISH MUSEUM (CONSTITUTION)
UGANDA
  Kabaka of Buganda (Talks)
  Kabaka of Buganda (Talks)
TANGANYIKA
  Kilombero Sugar Company, Limited
  Kilombero Sugar Company, Limited
COLONIAL TERRITORIES
  High Court Judges (Salaries)
  High Court Judges (Salaries)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Agricultural Industry (Future)
  Agricultural Industry (Future)
  Vimy Farm, Corscombe, Dorset
  Vimy Farm, Corscombe, Dorset
  Apple Crop
  Apple Crop
  Dried Food
  Dried Food
  Floods
  Floods
  River Test (Flooding)
  River Test (Flooding)
  Ware Potatoes (Shipments from Northern Ireland)
  Ware Potatoes (Shipments from Northern Ireland)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Pentonville Prison
  Pentonville Prison
  Traffic Wardens (Doctors' Cars)
  Traffic Wardens (Doctors' Cars)
  Aliens (Registration)
  Aliens (Registration)
  Disturbances, St. Pancras
  Disturbances, St. Pancras
  Liquid Household Preparations
  Liquid Household Preparations
  Young Offenders
  Young Offenders
  National Newspapers (Discontinuance)
  National Newspapers (Discontinuance)
  Treatment of Offenders (Report)
  Treatment of Offenders (Report)
  Diplomatic Corps (Car Parking)
  Diplomatic Corps (Car Parking)
  Political and Union Meetings (Police Dogs)
  Political and Union Meetings (Police Dogs)
  East Germans (Entry Permits)
  East Germans (Entry Permits)
UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA
  British-Protected Persons
  British-Protected Persons
HIGH COMMISSION TERRITORIES
  Farm Workers, Union of South Africa
  Farm Workers, Union of South Africa
BECHUANALAND
  Food Supplies
  Food Supplies
GHANA
  Financial Aid and Technical Assistance
  Financial Aid and Technical Assistance
SWAZILAND
  Education (Expenditure)
  Education (Expenditure)
PAKISTAN
  Cyclone Damage, Chittagong (Aid)
  Cyclone Damage, Chittagong (Aid)
SOUTHERN RHODESIA
  British-Protected Persons, Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia (Arrests)
  British-Protected Persons, Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia (Arrests)
ROADS
  A.30 and A.303
  A.30 and A.303
  Road Programme
  Road Programme
  Fareham-Portchester Road (Traffic Survey)
  Fareham-Portchester Road (Traffic Survey)
  Peacehaven
  Peacehaven
TRANSPORT
  Public Service Vehicles (Concessionary Fares)
  Public Service Vehicles (Concessionary Fares)
  Central London-Essex (Routes)
  Central London-Essex (Routes)
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  Supersonic Airliner
  Supersonic Airliner
  Jet Aircraft, Northolt (Navigational Aids)
  Jet Aircraft, Northolt (Navigational Aids)
  Jet Aircraft, London Airport
  Jet Aircraft, London Airport
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Polaris Submarines (Gareloch)
  Polaris Submarines (Gareloch)
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Rheumatism
  Rheumatism
  Common Cold
  Common Cold
  Influenza (Vaccination)
  Influenza (Vaccination)
  Home Helps
  Home Helps
  Poliomyelitis (Vaccination)
  Poliomyelitis (Vaccination)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Smokeless Zones
  Smokeless Zones
  River Thames (Pollution)
  River Thames (Pollution)
EMPLOYMENT
  Newspaper and Motor Vehicle Industries
  Newspaper and Motor Vehicle Industries
  School Leavers, Gateshead
  School Leavers, Gateshead
  Newspaper Workers
  Newspaper Workers
  CARIBBEAN ORGANISATION
  CARIBBEAN ORGANISATION
  GERMANY (NAVAL VESSELS)
  GERMANY (NAVAL VESSELS)
SCOTLAND
  Licensing Law (Committee's Report)
  Licensing Law (Committee's Report)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  £ Sterling (Purchasing Value)
  £ Sterling (Purchasing Value)
  Overseas Investment
  Overseas Investment
  University, Essex
  University, Essex
  Decontrolled Properties (Rents)
  Decontrolled Properties (Rents)
  Civil Service Executive Class (Pay Research)
  Civil Service Executive Class (Pay Research)
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Iver Grove, Buckinghamshire
  Iver Grove, Buckinghamshire

Preamble
The House met at half past eleven of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Norwich

BRITISH VOTING AT THE UNITED NATIONS
11.35 a.m.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will publish a Paper showing the chief resolutions voted on in the various organs of the United Nations at the present session and the votes cast by the delegations of the British Commonwealth.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Viscount for giving me the opportunity of reminding your Lordships of the very comprehensive information available about the activities of the General Assembly.
Each year, Her Majesty's Government present to Parliament and publish an extensive Report on the proceedings of every Session of the General Assembly of the United Nations. This Report, which appears in the spring, contains a full summary of the chief resolutions and the voting on them.
In addition, the texts of all the resolutions, together with copies of all other documents issued by the United Nations for an Assembly Session, including the summary and verbatim records of the debates, are available to noble Lords through the Library of the House. Those records contain full details of the voting.
These arrangements have been followed by successive Governments and have, I believe, in practice met the needs of noble Lords and of the public generally,
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl. May I ask him whether the papers available will be right up to date, to the time he left New York this Session?
THE EARL OF HOME: No, my Lords, I do not think that that is so. I think that the paper covering the whole of the Assembly's activities is published at the end of the General Assembly's meeting. If the noble Viscount wants to know the voting record on any particular item, I may be able to extract it for him; but he will find the whole report of last year's Assembly in the paper published last April, and the whole report of this year's Assembly in the paper that will be published next April.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, of course, the noble Earl realises that in the debate that he will lead very shortly in your Lordships' House this will be of the greatest importance. We have the Foreign Secretary here, straight from New York, and it is no good referring us to the record to be published later when what we want is a report of what has happened. Later on is not sufficient.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I will examine this. As I say, if the noble Viscount, for the purpose of the debate, wishes to know how the United Kingdom voted on a particular item, I will see whether I can provide that information for him urgently. But if he wants a record of all the votes, so that he may compare the voting on one item or another with the voting last year, then I think he will have to wait until the Assembly's session is finished.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, what I want is a record of the opinion of the Commonwealth as a whole on the great issues which have been discussed. I can look that out for myself but it will take a very long time and probably I shall make many mistakes. I should have thought that a plain answer of "Yes" to the question was possible.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, it would mean a great deal of work to collate the number of items that have been discussed in the Assembly and voted upon, and to present the information in the form of a paper or of a Written Answer. I will look at this again to see what I can do, but I would

1149
discourage the noble Viscount from thinking that it is a good practice that from month to month we should sum up the findings of the Assembly.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, it is not for me, in my position as an individual Member of your Lordships' House, to press this matter, but it must be obvious that everybody wants to know why it was that the United Kingdom delegation voted in a minority of active positive votes on the Chinese question and what the other members of the Commonwealth thought on that question.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, that is what I was trying to get at: whether there was any particular item on which the noble Viscount wanted information. I will look at this particular Chinese item and see whether I can give him that information.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords. China is not the only one.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, I am much obliged to the Foreign Secretary for his answers. I understand from the conversations through the usual channels that the noble Earl will be speaking at a very early stage in the debate next week, and with regard to what my noble friend Lord Stansgate has said, I am sure that the noble Earl will be giving us all the information that it will be possible to give.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, if what I say proves to be clumsy or inaccurate, I hope that the noble Earl will not lay the whole of the blame on my quite inefficient shoulders.

  SEISMIC RESEARCH AND NUCLEAR EXPLOSIONS
  SEISMIC RESEARCH AND NUCLEAR EXPLOSIONS
  ROYAL COMMISSION
  ROYAL COMMISSION
  PROROGATION: HER MAJESTY'S SPEECH
  PROROGATION: HER MAJESTY'S SPEECH