Sitting of 30 May 1960

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  SAINT PETER'S CHURCH NOTTINGHAM (BROAD MARSH BURIAL GROUND) BILL
  Lords Amendments considered and agreed to.

  LANCASHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT ETC.) BILL
  Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown and the Duchy of Lancaster, signified.
  Bill read the Third time and passed.

  HERTFORDSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL
  Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified.
  Bill read the Third time and passed.

  ROYAL COLLEGE OF PHYSICIANS OF LONDON BILL [Lords]
  Read the Third time and passed, without Amendment.
  PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH OF ENGLAND BILL [Lords]
    CANTERBURY AND DISTRICT WATER BILL [Lords]
    Read a Second time and committed.

  CITY OF LONDON (GUILD CHURCHES) BILL (By Order)
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed [9th May] on Consideration of Bill, as amended:
  Which Amendment was, in page 5, line 33, after the word "thereto", to insert the words:
  "provided that no such representation is to be made in respect of any question of doctrine, ritual or ceremonial, or in consequence of the social or political opinions or teachings of the incumbent of the existing Ward Church".
  Question again proposed, That those words be there inserted in the Bill.
  Mr. Driberg: In view of the substantially satisfactory Amendment which has now been put down by the promoter of the Bill, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  An Amendment made to the Bill.
  Bill to be read the Third time.

  GLOUCESTER AND SHARPNESS CANAL (WATER) BILL (By Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Wednesday.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Norwegian Fishery Limits
    Mr. Croslandasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he proposes to take, in the light of the Norwegian Government's decision to extend fishing limits to 12 miles, to protect the British fishing industry, whether by renewed international negotiations or other methods, from the now widespread threat to its traditional fishing grounds.
    The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Hare): As stated in an official communiqué issued in Oslo, useful exploratory talks between United Kingdom and Norwegian officials were held there on Friday and Saturday, 27th and 28th May, and it is hoped that further talks will take place shortly.
    Mr. Crosland: While recognising the difficulty of this problem, may I ask the Minister to bear in mind that time is passing rather rapidly, that the trawler industry is still kept outside the 12-mile limit off Iceland, that the industry is suffering loss in consequence of this and that the patience of the skippers and crews is being very sorely tried? Can he give the House some indication when he hopes that these consultations and others will come to some kind of fruition?
    Mr. Hare: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I am well aware of all

    967
    the facts he has mentioned, but I do not think I can usefully add to what I have already said.

    Home-grown Timber
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will enumerate the various steps which are being taken by his Department to encourage the marketing of home-grown timber; and to what extent these plans include arrangements to use the increase in home-grown timber which is expected during the next few years.
    Mr. John Hare: The Forestry Commission is actively engaged in encouraging the marketing of home-grown timber and in planning for the marketing of the increased supplies which will be available in future. Measures to these ends include the provision of assistance in the establishment of associations of private woodland owners; negotiation for the setting up of new timber consuming industries; market research; co-operation with the Forest Products Research Laboratory on research into the properties of home-grown timber; and provision of forecasts of future supplies and of information on the suitability of various timbers for particular processes.
    Mr. Digby: Will my right hon. Friend give all possible help in the setting up of these timber-consuming industries, in view of their great importance in the future?
    Mr. Hare: I am in constant touch with all concerned and naturally will do all I can to help.
    Mr. Mackie: Will the Minister see his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, because in Scotland there are several county councils that do not allow timber to be used for building piggeries?
    Mr. Hare: I am quite sure that my right hon. Friend will note what the hon. Gentleman has just said.

    Veal Production (Milk Subsidies)
    Mr. Morrisasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware that specially formulated milk substitutes for veal production are being imported into this country; and
    968
    whether he will consult with the Minister of Health as to the need for an investigation to safeguard the health of the public against any possible harmful effects.
    Mr. John Hare: I am aware that certain proprietary milk substitutes are being distributed in this country for use in the rearing of calves for veal, and would refer the hon. Member to the answers which I gave to the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mrs. Butler) and my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden) on 16th May. I am in touch with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health about any possible effects on the consumers of the veal, although there is no reason to suppose that these effects are harmful.
    Mr. Morris: While thanking the Minister for his reply, may I ask whether he is aware that these substitutes, including Kalomelk, have completely revolutionised veal production in Holland and that last year over half the calves reared for veal were reared on this commodity. Will he keep a constant watch on the situation?
    Mr. Hare: I certainly will.

    Cows (Mastitis)
    Mr. Morrisasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will give an estimate of the annual loss to the agricultural industry from cows contracting mastitis.
    Mr. John Hare: Mastitis is not notifiable and any estimate of losses from it must be guesswork. It does however effect the national dairy herd to a quite considerable degree.
    Mr. Morris: Is the Minister aware that the Americans, as part of their National Livestock Loss Reduction Year, have made the prevention of mastitis the subject of a special inquiry? In view of the great cost which this is causing to the dairy industry every year, will he consider special research into this problem with a view to eliminating mastitis?
    Mr. Hare: A great deal is being done about this, as I think the hon. Member knows. The use of antibiotics has made a considerable contribution in dealing with the disease. My advisory service is constantly drawing the attention of farmers to the need for strict hygiene, good

    969
    management and the use of suitable disinfectants. This is constantly being kept before the eyes of the farming community.

    Milk
    Mr. Priorasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the average price realised by the Milk Marketing Board for milk sold for butter-making and milk sold for processing for condensed milk in 1958.
    Mr. John Hare: Figures for the calendar year 1958 are not readily available. For the twelve months ended 31st March, 1959, the average prices for milk for butter making and condensed milk processing were 9·96d. and 21·77d. a gallon, respectively.
    Mr. Prior: Do not these figures show that the price realised for condensed milk is far higher than that for butter? Would it not be worth while to reintroduce the quota on imported milk products so as to raise the price of wholesale milk for manufacturing purposes and, by so doing, to reduce the amount of subsidy which farmers will be paid under the milk subsidy?
    Mr. Hare: I do not know whether my hon. Friend is aware that we are net exporters of condensed milk. I think that this trade would be jeopardised if we were to try to impose a restriction on imports.
    Mr. Prior: If we are importing considerably larger quantities of condensed milk this year, as the figures show, and the Milk Marketing Board has asked for the quota to be reimposed, it must mean that at the moment condensed milk consumption is drawing away from liquid milk consumption and we are losing a considerable revenue as a result.
    Mr. Hare: My hon. Friend has not got this right. The figures which I gave were for the year ended 31st March. 1959. We are importing less condensed milk this year and we are net exporters of condensed milk.

    Cod (Research)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will mike a statement on the research
    970
    undertaken by his Department's scientific experts into the language of cod while mating.
    Mr. John Hare: These investigations are part of important work being carried out to assist in the detection of different species of fish by scientific instruments. They are not yet sufficiently advanced for me to be able to satisfy the hon. Member's interest in this important subject.
    Mr. Driberg: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the widespread interest in the romantic underwater world opened up in recent years by M. Cousteau and others? Would he care to give the House an impression of the sounds produced and, I believe, recorded during the amorous exchanges of these interesting fish?
    Mr. Hare: I cannot give an accurate interpretation, but from a newspaper report I gather that the sound is rather of the nature of "grr-umph". I understand that this noise is not confined to the love-making activities of cod, but also, apparently, occurs when cod are engaged in other matters.

    Beef
    Mr. Willeyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how the supplies of beef, home-produced and imported, respectively, for the last 12-months period, compare with the supplies for the corresponding periods for the last three years.
    Mr. John Hare: As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Willey: Since the figures will be disappointing, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will give beef production a high priority in the discussions which are to take place in the next few months? I know that he is allergic to the farming Press, but will he look at the Farming Express, which had a very good article on this subject and which made some good suggestions a week or two ago?
    Mr. Hare: Naturally, I read all the farming Press. I can assure the hon. Member that I think that there will be

    971
    a substantial recovery in domestic beef production in the current year. I hope that the hon. Member will not be quite

    UNITED KINGDOM PRODUCTION AND IMPORTS OF BEEF OVER THE LAST FOUR YEARS

    '000 tons

    Period

    Australia

    New Zealand

    Argentina

    Other Countries

    Total

    Home Production

    Total

    April, 1956-March, 1957

    94·4

    64·1

    250·4

    10·9

    419·8

    801·0

    1,220·8

    April, 1957-March, 1958

    116·4

    43·5

    272·7

    8·1

    440·7

    805·3

    1,246·0

    April, 1958-March, 1959

    151·5

    10·4

    213·4

    11·4

    386·7

    773·2

    1,159·9

    April, 1959-March, 1960

    82·5

    6·5

    229·3

    28·9

    347·2

    711·8

    1,059·0

    Bacon
    Mr. Willeyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how the supplies of bacon, home-produced and imported, respectively, for the last six-months period, compare with the supplies for the corresponding period for the previous year.
    Mr. John Hare: For the six months from October, 1959, to March, 1960, the home production of bacon was 93,100 tons compared with 110,900 tons in the same period a year earlier; imports were 195,000 tons compared with 163,500 tons a year earlier.
    Mr. Willey: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that these figures graphically illustrate the deterioration of the pig industry in this country? In face of the new competition which will arise with the tariff adjustment of 1st July, does he not agree that this industry has been sorely let down in the past?
    Mr. Hare: As we have often discussed, these figures are due partly to the fall in pig prices and partly to a demand for pork arising from more attractive prices. We have given encouragement to the pig farmer by the action we took in the last Price Review, not only by putting up the price but by making it possible for long-term contracts to be concluded between the curer and the producer. More than 50 per cent. of our pigs are likely to be delivered to bacon factories under these long-term contracts.
    Mr. Bence: Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries into reports that
    972
    as disappointed in these figures as he expects to be.
    Following are the figures:
    bacon curers in this country are importing pig meat, curing it and then putting it on the market as home-produced bacon?
    Mr. Hare: If the hon. Member has any evidence of that sort of thing, I hope he will let me know.

    Animals (Landing Order)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the cost of preparing and printing the Order dated 11th May authorising the landing of one wildebeest and one giraffe at Newcastle-on-Tyne; and by what date he anticipates it will be possible to evolve a Standing Order which will avoid the frequent publication of separate orders such as this.
    Mr. John Hare: The total cost of preparing, duplicating and publishing the Order and presenting it to Parliament is estimated at £14. A Standing Order for Chester Zoo will be made very shortly, and as I informed the hon. Member the other day similar Orders may be made in the near future for a limited number of other urban zoos.
    Mr. Janner: Cannot the Minister cut out a lot of this red tape and have one or two Orders which will cover all these animals which can be brought into the country? Will he refer to Noah to find out why his lack of restrictions had no deleterious effect on the animals eventually brought into the world?
    Mr. Hare: I should have to go a long way to satisfy the hon. Member's interest

    973
    in this subject. I hope that he will find that the new arrangement which I have made will not make it necessary for him to show this continuous interest in the subject.
    Sir G. Nicholson: Is there not something both ludicrous and pathetic in these ill-assorted and exotic immigrants? Does my right hon. Friend take any interest in the health of these immigrants? Can he picture for himself the disquiet caused by a giraffe which has a sore throat? What does he recommend for that?
    Mr. Hare: I can assure my hon. Friend that I have considerable sympathy with all types of animals, including giraffes.

    Farm Produce (Merchanting and Retailing Costs)
    Mr. Darlingasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will appoint a suitable committee to inquire into the costs of merchanting and retailing farm produce.
    Mr. John Hare: A good many commodities, e.g. milk, eggs, potatoes, pigs, fruit and vegetables are covered by marketing boards and other organisations also concerned with marketing efficiency. Most of the remainder undergo substantial processing before reaching the consumer. Our consumer food prices are amongst the lowest in the world, and I am not convinced of the need for a general inquiry.
    Mr. Darling: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that millions of consumers in this country are very dissatisfied with the difference between the price of farm produce at the farm and the price they have to pay in the shops? Is he also aware that the latest request for an inquiry along these lines was made by the chairman of the Farmers' and Smallholders' Association? As he obviously intends to ignore that request, are we to assume that he has a closed shop in the Ministry and listens only to representations from the National Farmers' Union?
    Mr. Hare: I do not accept the latter part of the question. One has to look at this broadly and fairly. Nobody in the House can deny that our food prices are probably lower than those in practically every other industrial country in
    974
    the world. What is more, the price of food has been kept pretty well steady for the last two years, and this is more than has ever happened before.
    Mrs. Slater: Surely the right hon. Gentleman realises that that is not the point. Is it not a fact that if prices to the consumer can be reduced by good and wise marketing, then that ought to be introduced, in spite of the fact that our prices are lower than those of other countries? Does not the Minister also take into account the fact that we pay very large subsidies to some of these people in order that they shall supply us with these goods?
    Mr. Hare: We must keep this in proportion. The farmers get the direct benefit of the subsidies. [HON. MEMBERS: "No"] The consumer benefits through increased supplies at lower prices. The best preventive of excessive margins is our free marketing, under which traders have to compete with one another and in which farmers' and consumers' organisations can also compete. I remind the hon. Lady that only two years ago we had an investigation into horticultural marketing and the Runciman Committee came to the conclusion that it did not think that the allegations against the distributive side of the horticultural industry were proved.
    Mr. Willey: Surely the right hon. Gentleman agrees that there has been an extraordinary increase in distributive margins on food in the past five or six years? Will he consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour to see that the figures for the individual commodities are published so that we can make up our own minds about them?
    Mr. Hare: I am in constant touch with my colleague on this subject. I have nothing further to add to what I have said.

    Small Farmer Scheme
    Mr. P. Browneasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is satisfied that no adjustment is necessary in the lower potential man-day limit under the Small Farmer Scheme, in view of the 1960 Price Review; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. John HareI am satisfied that no amendment of the Small Farmer Scheme is required as a result of the 1960 Annual Review. But as I said in my reply to my hon. Friend on 19th November, 1959, I have undertaken to review the present limits of eligibility for the Small Farmer Scheme in the light of the first year or two of operation. I intend to review the limits when we have more experience of the Scheme.
    Mr. Browne: When my right hon. Friend makes his review, will he bear in mind that the whole standard set at the moment may be jeopardised if the guarantees for the small farmers' end-products continue to be cut?
    Mr. Hare: Naturally I will bear that in mind. If my hon. Friend looks at the last Review he will see that three products which probably most affect the small farmer are dealt with in this way: the guarantee for eggs has been reduced, there is very little change in respect of milk, and the guaranteed price for pigs has been substantially increased.

    National Farmers' Union (Discussions)
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he proposes to begin his discussions with the National Farmers' Union regarding the future of British agriculture.
    Mr. Jegerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a statement on his recent talks with the President of the National Farmers' Union; and what arrangements have been made for further discussions on matters arising out of the last Price Review, in view of the dissatisfaction existing amongst farmers.
    Mr. John Hare: I am meeting the president of the National Farmers' Union this week to discuss with him the topics which might usefully be brought into these discussions.
    Mr. Lipton: Having been kicked into these further negotiations by the Prime Minister, will the right hon. Gentleman now admit that the widespread dissatisfaction of the farming community with the Price Review is abundantly justified? Will he say exactly which points he proposes to discuss with the representatives of the farmers in the forthcoming negotiations?
    Mr. Hare: I do not know what happens in the ranks of the Labour Party, but in my party we are not kicked about. When I meet the president of the National Farmers' Union we shall decide which subjects are to be discussed, but I hope that the hon. Member is under no misconception; these are not negotiations but discussions of some problems which confront the industry. I hope that these discussions will get rid of some of the very definite misunderstandings which have arisen, probably as a result of some of the Questions put down by the hon. Member.
    Mr. Jeger: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there is considerable anxiety on all sides of the agricultural industry on two subjects—first, on the future of the home industry, and, secondly, on the future of the Minister? Are both those items on the agenda for the discussions?
    Mr. Hare: The hon. Member is too kind for words. He is most solicitous about my future. As for the general discussions, we shall be deciding what should form our agenda when I have talks with the president of the National Farmers' Union this week.
    Mr. Hilton: If the Minister is to have consultations about the future of British agriculture, will he also bring into those consultations the leaders of the farm workers—the National Union of Agricultural Workers—which I believe he will agree may have a very valuable contribution to make to such discussions?
    Mr. Hare: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am only too willing to meet representatives of the National Union of Agricultural Workers and other bodies, such as the Central Landowners Association, at any time, but these discussions are between the National Farmers' Union and the Government, and the idea of the discussions is that they should take place outside the pressure of the Annual Review. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that, if he or any of his friends wish to come to see me, I shall be only too pleased to meet them.
    Mr. Turton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the whole of the industry welcomes the approach he is making to the National Farmers' Union and looks forward to a reappraisal?
    Mr. Hare: I thank my right hon. Friend very much.
    Mr. Willey: Whilst appreciating that the right hon. Gentleman is not being kicked, may I ask him if he realises that we are delighted to know that he has moved from the complacency he showed during the debate on the Price Review? Can we be assured that the Prime Minister himself will report to the House on the new Tory policy on agriculture?
    Mr. Hare: I do not know anything about a new Tory policy on agriculture. What we are doing is to discuss certain of the problems confronting the industry and to remove some of the misunderstandings. There are four questions down on the Order Paper tomorrow to my right hon. Friend and Prime Minister. Therefore, I cannot anticipate his replies. As for complacency, the hon. Gentleman believes in repetition, but repetition does not necessarily make things true.

    Sea Defence Works
    Mr. Braineasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what recent representations have been made to him by local authorities in coastal areas with regard to the sharing of financial responsibility for the cost of sea-defence work carried out by river boards; and what reply he has made.
    Mr. John Hare: Fifty-four local authorities have recently written to me asking for the full cost of sea defence works to be borne by the Exchequer. My reply has been that the Exchequer already make very substantial contributions towards the cost of new or improved sea defence works carried out by river boards, but the Government take the view that there should also be some local contribution.
    Mr. Braine: Whilst it is true that generally assistance is given for new works, no assistance whatsoever is given in respect of maintenance. Is my right hon. Friend aware that, as a result of the new works carried out since 1953, when the Waverley Committee reported, the cost of maintenance for some authorities has more than doubled? Will he at least undertake to have a look at the whole problem with a view to seeing that the burden upon coastal
    978
    authorities is fair and not greater than it was in the days before the Waverley Committee reported?
    Mr. Hare: As I think my hon. Friend knows, I have no authority to pay maintenance grants, which are regarded by the Government as the responsibility of those who enjoy the benefit of the protection. The cost of this burden is normally spread over the whole of the river board area.
    Mr. Peyton: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that not all of us would support the proposal which has just been made? There is no reason why some local authorities in coastal areas should not do a good deal towards their own defence.
    Mr. Hare: I have my hon. Friend's point very much in mind.

  GOVERNMENT INFORMATION SERVICES

    Central Office of Information (Press Tours)
    Mr. Mayhewasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many tours for resident correspondents of foreign and Commonwealth newspapers have been provided by the Central Office of Information during the past 12 months.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Robert Allan): I have been asked to reply.
    In the financial year 1959–60 the Central Office of Information provided twelve tours for resident correspondents of foreign newspapers and nine tours for resident correspondents of Commonwealth newspapers.
    Mr. Mayhew: Will not the Minister agree that that is a very small number and that this is one of the best and least expensive methods of getting accurate information about this country into the overseas Press? Will he look into this to see whether he ought not to expand the service?
    Mr. Allan: My right hon. Friend is very much aware of what the hon. Gentleman says, and in the last year it has been rather more than doubled. I remind the hon. Gentleman that over

    979
    and above that we did 317 tours for foreign and Commonwealth Press representatives from abroad.
    Mr. Mayhew: But resident correspondents are a cheaper proposition and even better in many ways. I ask the hon. Gentleman to look into it.
    Mr. Allan: It has already been doubled, and I know that my right hon. Friend is very interested.

    Sound Transcription and Tape Services
    Mr. Mayhewasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what is the division of function between the sound transcription service of the British Broadcasting Corporation and the sound tape service of the Central Office of Information.
    Mr. R. Allan: I have been asked to reply.
    The sound transcription service of the British Broadcasting Corporation consists normally of records on disk or tape of live B.B.C. programmes which are made available to broadcasting organisations overseas on payment. The sound tape service of the Central Office of Information consists of original tape recordings specially made on behalf of the Overseas Departments for distribution, through the official information services overseas, to local broadcasting stations.
    Mr. Mayhew: Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that there is no danger of duplication here, or is it intended that these two publicly financed bodies should compete in this field?
    Mr. Allan: Anticipating that question from the hon. Gentleman, I looked into it with some care. There are adequate safeguards against overlapping, and I do not think that they compote.
    Mr. W. Hamilton: Will the hon. Gentleman enlarge on that reply? What is the exact machinery for preventing any such duplication?
    Mr. Allan: The C.O.I. informs the B.B.C. of all its output, item by item, immediately it is undertaken. There are also very close and friendly contacts between the two bodies at departmental level.

  PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE

    Offices, Scotland (Areas)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, in view of the fact that the geography of the constituencies in the north east of Scotland differs from the relevant area served by the National Insurance office and the National Assistance Board office, respectively, and that this involves difficulties in the computation and exposition of old-age pensions figures and National Assistance figures, if he will now take steps to make the respective areas co-incidental so that he and the House may be kept fully informed of the precise relation between old-age pensions and National Assistance in these areas.
    The Minister of Pensions and National Insurance (Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter): No, Sir. To adopt the hon. and learned Gentleman's suggestion would involve lowering the standard of service given, and charging the taxpayer and the contributor to National Insurance more for it.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister remember that very recently he revealed this discord in his Department? Is he maintaining it? Does the present answer mean that he is unwilling to change from discord to concord in this very important matter? Is it not right that he and the public should be fully informed about these essential matters?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The only discord I noticed was from the hon. and learned Gentleman.

    National Assistance (Prosecutions)
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many prosecutions took place in England, Wales and Scotland, respectively, in each of the last five years, for false declarations of income to the National Assistance Board; and how many were imprisoned as a result of such prosecutions in each year.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: As the Answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The Board informs me that

    981
    separate figures are not available for Wales nor for those prosecutions where the false declaration related only to income.
    Following are the figures:
    I am informed by the National Assistance Board that the numbers of prosecutions for false declarations in connection with applications for National Assistance, and of resulting imprisonments, in England and Wales and in Scotland during the last five years were as follows:—

    —

    England and Wales

    Scotland

    Prosecutions

    Imprisonments

    Prosecutions

    Imprisonments

    1955

    …

    577

    142

    225

    57

    1956

    …

    537

    148

    258

    66

    1957

    …

    472

    111

    248

    71

    1958

    …

    654

    169

    195

    68

    1959

    …

    638

    168

    178

    53

    Graduated Pension Scheme (Leaflet)
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he will issue a leaflet in clear and non-technical language about the graduated pension scheme which will come into operation next April, so that employers and workers will know exactly what they will then have to pay and what benefits they will receive.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Yes, Sir. A leaflet giving a broad outline of the scheme both on contributions and benefits in clear and non-technical language was issued in July last. I am sending the hon. Member a copy. This leaflet, "A Guide to the New Graduated Pension Scheme", will be revised and expanded to give more detail as Regulations on various aspects of the scheme are made.
    Mr. Hynd: Will the Minister see that full information is sent out on this as soon as possible, in view of the wide changes which will take place next April, with which I am sure he will agree many employers and workers are not yet acquainted?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I share the hon. Gentleman's anxiety that the fullest information should be available. I am taking a11 possible steps to ensure that it is.

    Unemployed (Assistance)
    Mr. Willisasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many of the registered unemployed in Scotland are in receipt of National Assistance payments.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance (Miss Patricia Hornsby-Smith): Thirty-five thousand, six hundred and forty-seven on 26th April last.
    Mr. Willis: Is the right hon. Lady aware that many unemployed are unable to get National Assistance until they have been unemployed for three or four weeks? Is not this an injustice which should be put right?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: Happily, unemployment is generally temporary.
    Mr. Willis: Not in Scotland, with 35,000-odd receiving National Assistance.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: I think it is reasonable to expect that people finding themselves temporarily unemployed are in many cases able to maintain themselves satisfactorily over a period until they find employment. If, on the other hand, their means come within the scale laid down by the National Assistance Board they are in a position to obtain a supplementary grant from the Board.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Will not the right hon. Lady agree that the National Assistance Board seems to take into account a far different lot of Regulations in dealing with men who have been unemployed for a week or two than those laid down by the House? This causes much confusion, and hon. Members cannot advise their constituents whether they are entitled in certain circumstances to benefit. What circumstances are taken into consideration by the National Assistance Board as distinct from the Regulations approved by the House for those who apply for assistance?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: If the hon. Member has any evidence of differing treatment, I shall be very happy to look into any special case; but I am sure that the National Assistance Board carries out the duties placed upon it in accordance with the Regulations.
    Mr. Ross: How many of the 35,000 now receiving assistance in Scotland were refused it when they first applied?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: I could not answer that without previous notice.
    Mr. Fernyhoughasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what is the number of registered unemployed who, during the last two years, have been transferred to the National Assistance Board because they have exhausted their entitlement to unemployment benefit.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I regret that this information is not available for the two years, but of those who exhausted their benefit in 1959 and were still unemployed a month later, 21,000 had applied for National Assistance in the interval.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Would not the Minister agree that that is a remarkable figure, which is likely to increase in those areas designated by the Government as having high and persistent unemployment? Does he not think it a scandal that men who are unemployed through no fault of their own and who cannot find jobs—and the Government are doing very little to find them jobs—should be submitted to this iniquity? Is it not time that we reintroduced Section 62 and thus gave the right to draw unemployment benefit to the able-bodied unemployed who want work but cannot find it?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Gentleman knows as well as anybody else that his own right hon. Friends intended Section 62 to be temporary, and it was temporary. He knows perfectly well, too, that the vigorous measures that my right hon. Friends are taking to improve the employment position in those areas are the right answer.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Would the Minister bear in mind that, whatever anyone else may have said or done at the time to which he refers, I divided the House against the temporary nature of Section 62? Will he therefore tell me, now so many years after, what justification can remain for not providing any kind of insurance benefit for people who after a long time, and having made every effort they can on their own behalf, are unable to obtain employment?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Member knows perfectly well that, with the exception of a short interval, unemployment benefit has never been of indeterminate duration and that it was to deal with precisely that kind of situation that, among other things, the Assistance Board was introduced.

    Unemployment and Sickness Benefit
    Mr. Willisasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how much it would cost to raise the rates of unemployment benefit to the level of the National Assistance scales.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: About £1 million a year net.
    Mr. Willis: In view of that, does not the right hon. Gentleman think it is about time that he raised all the benefits under the National Insurance Act?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: If I raised the benefits under the National Insurance Act while not raising the scales of National Assistance, the people who would not benefit would be the poorest section.
    Mr. Willis: Surely the right hon. Gentleman knows that an unemployed man, who probably has had a very small wage whilst he was working, has to wait two or three weeks before he becomes eligible for National Assistance. I pointed that out in my previous supplementary. If the benefits were raised, this would at least remove that hardship as well as a great many other hardships suffered by pensioners and others.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: No, it would not, because the hon. Gentleman's Question related to the relative scales. In truth and in fact, what is at least as important, perhaps more important, is supplementation in respect of rents by the National Assistance Board. Therefore, the hon. Gentleman's proposal would not meet his own point.
    Mr. Millanasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many allowances are being paid by the National Assistance Board to persons in receipt of sickness benefit; and what was the average period of such payments in 1959.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am informed by the National Assistance Board that

    985
    on 29th March last 135,000 weekly National Assistance grants were being paid to persons in receipt of sickness benefit. Information about the duration of such grants in 1959 is not available.
    Mr. Millan: Does not that figure of 135,000 weekly payments demonstrate the inadequacy of the sickness benefit, in common with other National Insurance benefits? Is it not time for a review of all National Insurance benefits in order to bring them into line with the rise in the cost of living?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: On the contrary, it demonstrates the great value and flexibility of the system of supplementary payments made by the National Assistance Board, which, in cases of supplementation of sickness benefit, are, as an inquiry some years ago showed, mainly to aid the hardest cases where sickness has been prolonged.
    Mr. Ross: Does that mean, judging by the answer and figures already quoted, that the Minister is satisfied with a scheme of insurance—the important word is "insurance"—that fails to cover adequately the contingencies against which people are supposed to be insured'?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Gentleman's question appears to suggest that he himself is questioning the desirability of the long stop of our social services, namely, National Assistance.
    Mr. Smallasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how much would be required to be added weekly to current unemployment and sickness benefit to maintain the relationship between average earnings and benefits as at February 1958.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: An addition of about 3s. 6d. to the single person's rate would give the same relationship between benefit and average earnings as existed in April, 1958, which is the nearest date to that requested for which figures are available.
    Mr. Small: In view of the figure of 3s. 6d., does not the Minister acknowledge that now is the time to make the adjustment?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have absolutely nothing to add to what I have said at considerable length in the House in the last few weeks.
    Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance by how much current average weekly earnings of adult workers male and female, respectively, exceeds current unemployment benefit; and what were the amounts in February 1958.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The average earnings of men in the industries covered by the Ministry of Labour's half-yearly inquiry were 253s. 2d. in April, 1958, and 270s. 9d. in October, 1959. For a married couple with two children, these averages exceeded benefit by 151s. 2d. and 168s. 9d., respectively. For a single woman, earnings were 131s. 3d. and 140s. 4d., which exceeded benefit at these dates by 81s. 3d. and 90s. 4d.
    Mr. Ross: In view of the continuous and growing gap between earnings and insurance benefits, is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied continually to do nothing about it and to give no assurance about the future?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Gentleman's hypothesis that the gap is growing is not sustained by the fact that, taking the example I gave of a man with a wife and two children, the benefit represented 33 per cent. in October, 1951, and now represents 37½, per cent.

    Rents (Assistance)
    Mr. Rossasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if he will state the average allowance presently made in respect of rent in the supplementary payments made by the National Assistance Board to retirement pensioners.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am informed by the National Assistance Board that, at the end of 1959, 863,000 out of the 976,000 retirement pensioners then receiving weekly National Assistance grants were householders with outgoings for rent, rates, etc.; that in these cases the rent and rates as defined in the Board's annual reports averaged 18s. 9d. a week; and that it was provided for in full in the assessment in all but 4,500 cases. It is not possible to say how much of the assistance granted is attributable to rent as the grant paid, after taking all the needs and resources of the applicant into account, is often less than the rent.
    Mr. Lipton: Does not that mean that many hundreds of thousands of £s a week are being distributed by the Assistance Board in the form of rent supplementation?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: No. It means that the poorest section of the population get help with their rents from the taxpayers.
    Mr. Manuel: The Rent Act.

    Retirement Pension
    Mr. H. Hyndasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, what plans he has for bringing the rate of retirement pension for a married couple up to the scale for National Assistance.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I have nothing to add about the rates of retirement pension to what I said in our three recent debates.
    Mr. Hynd: Is it not obviously most unsatisfactory that people who have contributed all their life become eligible for less money than people who have contributed nothing? That anomaly should be put right as soon as possible.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The hon. Gentleman raises an issue which has never been resolved since the parable of the labourers in the vineyard.

    Dermatitis
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance how many claims were made in the past accountable year by men and women, respectively, for dermatitis following irritation by irritating dusts or liquids; how many were successful in their claims; and how many, after receiving industrial injury payment or pension, were later judged to be suffering from dermatitis due to constitutional causes.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: In the year ended 30th June, 1958, the latest date for which figures are at present available, there were 16,200 spells of incapacity due to dermatitis for which injury benefit was paid under the Industrial Injuries Act. Of these, 13,100 related to men and 3,100 to women. In this total of 16,200 spells are included 2,500 spells—2,300 for men and 200 for women—which were recrudescences of earlier attacks. No
    988
    figures are available of the number of claims for benefit for dematitis, and I have no information about the number of beneficiaries subsequently found to be suffering from dermatitis due to constitutional causes.
    Dr. Stross: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those in the last category he mentioned—those who, by some magical process, it seems, change from an industrial dermatitis to one of constitutional origin—seem to be a substantial number, and that this causes very great confusion and dismay in the minds of the workers who are involved in this way? Would he prefer me to write to him to tell him how difficult the matter is, or would he rather I spoke of it on the Adjournment?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am in the hon. Gentleman's hands in this matter. I appreciate that where one has a disease such as this, which can be industrial and can be constitutional in origin, one sometimes gets very difficult marginal cases, and people who find themselves on the wrong side of the line are, not unnaturally, dissatisfied. But I should be very happy to hear the hon. Gentleman's views by whatever method he likes to adopt.
    Dr. Stross: Then I beg to give notice that I shall try to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Miners (Respiratory Diseases)
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance whether he is aware of the disadvantage suffered by miners Who are examined before entering the industry and declared fit for work in it but after 10 years suffer pulmonary disability for bronchospasm, chronic bronchitis, emphysema or asthma, and are not entitled to benefit in the same way as cotton operatives who contract byssinosis; and if he will take steps to rectify this anomaly.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Before a disease can be prescribed under the Industrial Injuries Act, the conditions laid down in Section 55 (2) of the Act have to be satisfied. Unlike the other respiratory diseases mentioned, byssinosis is not common to the population at large, and research has established that the conditions in Section 55 (2) are satisfied for it

    989
    in respect of certain cotton operatives. Present medical knowledge would not justify prescription of the other respiratory conditions for miners.
    Dr. Stross: Would not the Minister agree that byssinosis differs only in origin from pneumoconiosis in coal miners in that the dust inhaled is dust of vegetable origin; that many miners suffer from what, amongst them, is called miners' emphysema—and what is called among medical men, too, miners' emphysema—that they also get bronchitis and bronchospasm without any appearances on X-ray, exactly as in byssinosis, which is not diagnosed by X-ray? Will he not, at least in the case of the miners examined before coming into work and declared fit, give them the same benefit?
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: The difficulty is that I am bound by Section 55 of the Act, which lays down that we can deal in this way only with complaints that are a risk of the occupation and are not common to all persons. The hon. Gentleman will know very well that the complaints to which he has just referred are very far from being confined to one occupation.

  COAL

    Collieries (Closures)
    Mr. Owenasked the Minister of Power how many collieries were closed in 1959; how many miners who were declared redundant are still out of work; and whether he will make a statement.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power (Mr. J. C. George): Fifty-three National Coal Board mines were closed during 1959. About 15,500 men were affected, of whom about 400 are still out of work.
    Mr. Owen: I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for that brief comment on the 1959 position. Will he agree that the social tragedy that was inherent in the contraction of the industry has been generally averted by the good sense of the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers, and will he say what steps have been taken to deal with those who are still redundant?
    Mr. George: The 400 men to whom I referred earlier are scattered over the
    990
    country—100 in Scotland, 200 in Northumberland and Cumberland, and 100 in South Wales. Therefore, no serious problem emerges anywhere. On the question of unemployment in the mining industry, 6,400 men are unemployed, representing 1 per cent. of those working in the industry.
    Mr. Lee: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is somewhat paradoxical that we have now reached the position where we judge our success in the industry by our ability to cut back production? Would the hon. Gentleman examine the long-term energy programme and find out whether we are now to get from the Atomic Energy Authority that contribution to the total of energy production that it was estimated we would get? If we are not to get that, then indeed we shall shortly pass into a fuel crisis again. Will the Parliamentary Secretary consult his right hon. Friend on that?
    Mr. George: That is an entirely different question. If the hon. Gentleman cares to raise it on another occasion, he will get an answer.

    Auchengeich Colliery (Fan Belt)
    Mr. Darlingasked the Minister of Power what inquiries have been made by his inspectors into the reasons why a fan belt installed underground at Auchengeich colliery, Lanarkshire, and which subsequently caught fire with consequent loss of life, did not conform to British Standard 2066, and was not of the quality and standard ordered by the National Coal Board as necessary to ensure safety.
    Mr. George: The circumstances in which the belt was delivered to Auchengeich Colliery were fully investigated at the public inquiry, and are described in the Chief Inspector's report on the tragedy. As the matter may become the subject of court proceedings, my right hon. Friend considers that it would be improper for him to make any further comment.

    Solid Smokeless Fuels
    Mr. Owenasked the Minister of Power whether he has completed his study of the report of the Committee on

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    Solid Smokeless Fuels; what is the outcome of his consultations with other Departments and organisations; and whether he will now make a statement on Government policy.
    Mr. George: I cannot yet add anything to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to the hon. Member on 12th May.

  MINISTRY OF POWER

    Sheet Steel
    Mr. Leeasked the Minister of Power what was the increased cost of the importation of sheet steel during the first quarter of 1960, compared with the first quarter of 1959; and what percentage increase of sheet steel was imported during the first quarter of 1960 over the comparable period of 1959.
    Mr. George: The increased cost was £8 million on an increased quantity of 110,000 tons. This quantity is 355 per cent. above the corresponding period of 1959.
    Mr. Lee: Is not the nation passing into a most serious situation? I am aware of a sort of conspiracy of silence in the Press to keep this matter quiet, but would not the hon. Gentleman agree that we are now suffering from some inefficiency within the industry in its lack of effort to expand the production of sheet; and that we are now reaching a situation in which the balance of payments position is threatened by our inability to get sufficient sheet steel in Britain?
    Mr. George: No, Sir. Between the first quarter of 1959 and the first quarter of 1960 net deliveries of sheet steel from United Kingdom sources have increased—not decreased, but increased—by 26 per cent., or 146,000 tons, the bulk going to home consumers. Home consumption increased by 176,000 tons or 32 per cent., and demand by even more as consumers built up stocks they had run down in the previous quarter. For the moment, imports are inevitable to sustain industrial output. The present level of production is rising at a rate of 250,000 tons annually.
    Mr. Lee: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that the increase to which he refers
    992
    is consequent upon a decrease because of the recession brought about by Government policy in the steel industry, and that in fact it is not a real increase in our ability in the steel industry at all? Therefore, will the hon. Gentleman consult his right hon. Friend in order that we can now have a positive increase in the production of sheet in Britain before it becomes a great drain upon our balance of payments position?
    Mr. George: In my reply I referred to actual increased capacity. In 1958 it rose to 2¼million tons from 2 million tons. It rose again in 1959 to 2½million tons; in 1960 it is expected to reach 24¾million tons and next year 3 million tons. Thereafter the output of sheet is expected to be ample for any demands.
    Mr. Leeasked the Minister of Power whether the programme for increased sheet steel production takes account of the recently announced expansion of the car industry.
    Mr. George: Yes, Sir. When schemes already approved are completed there should be ample capacity to meet all foreseeable demands.
    Mr. Lee: Is this not a contradiction of what the hon. Gentleman said in his last answer? In other words, we are now importing sheet at a level £8 million higher than in the previous quarter of last year, which represents an increase in importation of over 350 per cent.? We now have a pretty vast expansion of the car industry, and the hon. Gentleman says that the Department has already taken care of this in its estimates for the future. How is it possible to reconcile these two points?
    Mr. George: The position is that there will be imports this year and imports next year. Thereafter production is expected to meet demand, and in the years following substantially to exceed demand.

  MINISTRY OF AVIATION

    Private Aircraft (Airport Facilities)
    Mr. Goughasked the Minister of Aviation if he is yet able to make a statement in regard to the Government's plans for finding a suitable replacement for Croydon Airport, with Customs facilities for the use of private aviation.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon): In most respects Gatwick already meets this need. It is open to any private aircraft equipped with suitable radio, and it has customs facilities.
    Mr. Gough: Would my hon. Friend agree that this long delay is creating a great handicap to private and business flying, and would not Gatwick meet the purpose for the time being?
    Mr. Rippon: In our view, Gatwick is suitable in most respects. It will be even better when the hangarage and maintenance facilities are improved.

    B.O.A.C. (Board)
    Mr. Chetwyndasked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a statement on appointments to the Board of the British Overseas Airways Corporation.
    Mr. Rippon: My right hon. Friend has no appointments to announce at present.
    Mr. Chetwynd: Can the hon. Gentleman say what is happening, as there have already been inspired leaks in the Press about the appointment of a chairman? As the deputy chairman's post is still vacant and the chairman is retiring next year, is it not high time that an announcement was made, and when the appointments are made should they not be full-time?
    Mr. Rippon: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there have been no inspired leaks. My right hon. Friend will publish any appointments as soon as they are made.

    London Airport (Flight Deviations)
    Mr. Straussasked the Minister of Aviation how many complaints have been made this year to the London Airport commander that aircraft taking off from runway I0R have deviated from the course laid down by the airport authority and thereby caused undue annoyance to those living in the residential area over which the aircraft has flown.
    The Minister of Aviation (Mr. Duncan Sandys): Twenty-one.
    Mr. Strauss: What action is the Minister taking about this? Most of these deviations go over a residential area, including a school, and cause a great deal of annoyance. Is he aware, moreover, that it is alleged that many of these deviations from the proper course are taken deliberately for the purpose of avoiding the instruments for measuring noise which are situated in Green Lane? In view of this fact, will the right hon. Gentleman look into the matter carefully?
    Mr. Sandys: I am watching it carefully.
    Mr. A. C. Manuel: The right hon. Gentleman should listen to it.
    Mr. Sandys: It is not always easy to identify an aircraft about which complaint is made. In cases where this is possible and the information is sufficiently precise, the complaint is taken up with the airline concerned. In addition, a revised procedure has been introduced quite recently—in the last few weeks, in fact—and as a result aircraft are now required to fly rather further before being allowed to deviate. We have also made a change which should make it easier to identify the point at which they may deviate.
    Mr. Rankin: Does the Minister remember that one of these deviations almost caused an accident involving some very valuable Members from both sides of this House?
    Mr. Sandys: I am very glad to see the hon. Member still with us.

    Prestwick Airport (Hotel)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Minister of Aviation what reconsideration he is giving to the plan for building a new hotel at Prestwick Airport.
    Mr. Rippon: There is no doubt that a new hotel would be an asset at Prestwick. It would be best for it to be provided by private enterprise rather than by the Government. A site is available for an hotel and the Ministry of Aviation will be glad to consider proposals from any persons who may be interested.
    Mr. Rankin: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that this undertaking will be most valuable? But can he justify to

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    the country, apart from his own supporters, giving a private monopoly almost in the centre of a public utility which has been built up by the expenditure of millions of public money? Does he realise that this decision is causing a great deal of concern in Scotland and will not he reconsider the matter?
    Mr. Rippon: Of course, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the present hotel is managed by Scottish Aviation Ltd., although the premises and the fixtures are provided by the Ministry. Normally these facilities are provided by private enterprise, and in view of the need, there is little doubt that interest will be shown in the project.

    V-Bombers (Skybolt)
    Mr. de Freitasasked the Minister of Aviation what studies he has made of the possibility of modifying Royal Air Force V-bombers so that they can carry Skybolt.
    Mr. Sandys: This matter has been studied by a British technical mission sent for this purpose to the United States.
    Mr. de Freitas: The Minister has told us that the V-bombers could be so modified. Was it not on this assumption that the credibility of the independent nuclear deterrent into the mid-1960s was argued?
    Mr. Sandys: That is so, and I believe the assumption to be correct.
    Mr. de Freitas: Would the right hon. Gentleman say that all V-bombers can be modified? Is that the assumption on which he is working?
    Mr. Sandys: Not all the V-bombers. We were thinking in terms of the Mark II bomber—the more advanced type.

    Esso Petroleum Company (London Airport)
    Mr. Fletcherasked the Minister of Aviation whether he will give an assurance that he will not authorise the Esso Petroleum Company to undertake any further works at London Airport, in advance of the statutory approval which is being sought by that company under the Bill now before this House.
    Mr. Rippon: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Fletcher: In view of the fact that the Private Bill looks like being controversial, is it not rather unfortunate that any part of the work should have been authorised before Parliament has considered the matter?
    Mr. Rippon: The position is that the Bill relates only to work outside the airport boundary.

    Black Knight and Blue Streak
    Mr. de Freitasasked the Minister of Aviation what military use is planned for Black Knight now being tested in Australia.
    Mr. Chetwyndasked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a further statement about the future use of Black Knight and Blue Streak in relation to a non-military space programme.
    Mr. Sandys: Black Knight is not designed to be a weapon. It is a test vehicle for high altitude research and for studying the problem of re-entry. If it is decided to use Blue Streak for launching satellites, Black Knight would provide the basis for a suitable second stage boost.
    Mr. de Freitas: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those who welcome the use of this device for civil purposes would like to be assured that it is not being paid for out of the military budget? Can he assure us that no part of the defence budget is being used to meet the expense of this development?
    Mr. Sandys: The hon. Gentleman, I take it, is referring to Black Knight. One of the problems which we are studying and which has both civil and military application, is the problem of re-entry. I could not answer off the cuff the question relating to the distribution of funds as between one Department and another, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Defence Departments will look after themselves pretty well.
    Mr. Chetwynd: When does the right hon. Gentleman think he will be able to make this statement on the further use of Blue Streak?
    Mr. Sandys: I have advised the House not to expect a statement before Whitsun.

    Vertical Take-off Aircraft
    Mr. Straussasked the Minister of Aviation whether he has sought the cooperation of the French Government in the development of the Short SC1 vertical take-off aircraft as well as the one designed by Hawker.
    Mr. Sandys: We have agreed in principle to promote collaboration on the exploitation of the vertical take-off principle in general. The Hawker P1127 is designed to meet a probable military requirement and is, therefore, receiving first attention. The potentialities of other technial solutions, such as that embodied in Short's research aircraft, the SC1, are also being jointly studied
    Mr. Strauss: May we take it that the same amount of urgency and interest will go behind the development of the Short SC1, since it appears that from that plane there is a possibility of developing civil planes which are supersonic in speed and, therefore, of the greatest importance? Can we have an assurance from the Minister that he will do all he can to ensure that all the development effort necessary goes into that aircraft?
    Mr. Sandys: I am very much intersted in it. I went to see it fly only last week. I assure the right hon. Gentle-
    998
    man that we are trying to press ahead with the exploitation of the principle as quickly as we can, and the aircraft has proved the success of the principle. I must, however, make it clear that it is still in the research stage. For any practical use of this aircraft, we should need a new design of the aircraft itself and a new engine.
    Mr. McMaster: Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that Messrs. Short Brothers and Harland Limited will be included in any conversations with countries overseas on the future development of this aeroplane and that the future development of the Short SC1 will remain in the hands of Messrs. Short Brothers and Harland, who have successfully developed this plane, which is the first of its kind in the world?
    Mr. Sandys: I am glad that my hon. Friend has reminded us of his interest in Belfast industry.

SCOTTISH AFFAIRS
Matter of Employment in Scotland, being a matter relating exclusively to Scotland, referred to the Scottish Grand Committee for their consideration.—[Mr. R. A. Butler.]
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr.
Redmayne.]

FOREIGN AFFAIRS
3.32 p.m.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): Before entering upon the main subject of this debate, I might perhaps be allowed to say that I am sure the whole House will have noted with pleasure the decision of the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) to withdraw his Motion.
Ten days ago, I gave the House a general report of the events which led to the abandonment of the long-awaited Summit Meeting in Paris. On the same day, there was published a White Paper containing a brief narrative, the texts of the statements made by the Heads of Government at the preliminary meeting, and, in addition, the formal letters interchanged between them. During the last few days, the whole story has been widely discussed and debated in oral and written comment in every country in the world. I think, therefore, that the historians will find ample material for their future study and disagreement.
Apart from one or two comments which I ought to make on particular points, I propose to concentrate what I have to say, not on the past, but on the future. I believe that this will accord with the mood of the House and of the country. I see little value, except the intrinsic interest in any unsolved problem, in speculations as to the motives which may have influenced Mr. Khrushchev to act as he did. Some say that he was influenced by China. Others say that it was a matter of personal pique or anger. Some say that it was a matter of Soviet internal politics. It has been argued, also, that the incident of the U2 aircraft was the true, and perhaps the sole, cause of the breakdown. Whatever may have been the state of Soviet knowledge or suspicion about these flights before the incident of 1st May, I quite understand that the incident itself was bound to be regarded seriously by the Soviet authorities. Nevertheless, one may, perhaps, permit oneself the reflection that there is no country in the world where an incident
1000
of this kind could have been more easily played down, if not completely concealed. On the contrary, it was played up and magnified by all the means of publicity and propaganda.
During the preliminary session of the Conference, after the speeches of Mr. Khrushchev and President Eisenhower, I ventured to observe that all, or nearly all, intelligence—or, if one likes to call it so, espionage—is in a sense an infringement of national sovereignty. In this connection, Mr. Khrushchev had previously declared that his hands were clean and his heart was pure. I must honestly say that this is a very high claim to make: a high claim for the Head of any great Power to make today about intelligence which, in the unhappy state of the modern world, is regarded as necessary to preserve national safety. It has been argued, also, that President Eisenhower might have made his declaration that the flights would be discontinued a few days earlier. I think that that is a matter more of tactics than of substance.
Amid all this doubt and uncertainty, I am at least sure of this, that had the will been there, a path might have been cleared through this preliminary obstacle, either by multilateral or by separate negotiation, so that we could have started on our work.
However, all this examination of the causes of failure and attempts to peer into motives seems to me to be rather idle. Here we are, and the question we have to ask ourselves is, Where do we go from here? We have to give the answer in a spirit neither of despair nor of cynicism. Above all, we must not let basic policy become influenced by the day-to-day turns and twists in the battle of words. We must follow a consistent path and not lurch desperately from side to side, following now one policy and now another.
I must admit that Mr. Khrushchev's speech in Paris deeply shocked those from the West who heard it. A day or two later, he made a speech in Berlin which seemed much more moderate, at any rate in substance. This has been followed by another speech in Moscow. We must, of course, take note of what is said objectively and dispassionately, but let us not go back to the old days, which some of us remember only too well, of

1001
waiting week by week for the pronouncements of a foreign statesman and then attuning our policies to their changing emphasis.
Naturally, I am gratified that the British people reacted to the situation with their usual common sense. They have been disappointed but not unduly alarmed. Some of the weaker brethren seem to be rallying to a more realistic conception of their duty than has recently been fashionable in certain quarters. This is, perhaps, an unexpected but certainly not an unhealthy development. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition will, I trust, forgive me for observing that he appears to be almost the sole beneficiary of Mr. Khrushchev's policy, and, if I have some hesitations and qualms as a partisan, I rejoice as a patriot. In our system, the more the foreign and defence policy of the Government of the day can rest upon general support, the stronger will be the position of the nation.
President Eisenhower, President de Gaulle and I were able, fortunately, to use the days immediately following the collapse of the Conference for informal but serious discussion. We felt that, in our own countries and among the other peoples of the free world, the disappointment which must follow this setback would, nevertheless, bring about a new sense of the need for strengthening their unity and their common purpose. This spirit has been reflected by the many messages which I have received from Commonwealth Prime Ministers. It is clearly the reaction of the N.A.T.O. alliance and of the other alliances.
I have already referred to certain reactions which have taken place, as a result of recent events, in our own country. I will, therefore, not go into great detail today. No doubt we shall have debates in this House as to the effect on the military aspects of our policy. There is naturally much discussion of the problem of the nuclear deterrent power of the West. Many varying proposals are always being made as to how responsibility for its control might be held in the future. But I would plead that we should not confuse ourselves with words or take refuge in phrases. Still less ought we to use some of these concepts as mere political conveniences. We are here dealing with something
1002
much more fundamental than the adjustment of groups or parties. We are dealing with the safety of the world.
Let me start with the facts. The deterrent power of the Western world today consists of American and British bomber forces. The time may come—it certainly has not yet come—when the bomber may be partially, perhaps even completely, displaced by the rocket. However, the life of the bomber may well be maintained longer than we think by the various devices calculated to make it less vulnerable to anti-aircraft defence. Even in the further future, it is because the bomber counter-attack against aggression can be made from so many different quarters that it remains so formidable. At this moment, and in the years which lie immediately ahead, the British contribution is a very important, indeed vital, element both because of its strength and because of its location. Our American friends know this and recognise it generously.
I have heard some talk of handing the deterrent over to N.A.T.O. What exactly does this mean? As I have said, the deterrent consists of bomber forces, whether British or American. Under the United States law, the control of their nuclear-armed aircraft cannot be handed over to anyone. Our agreement with the United States precludes us from giving to other countries knowledge which we have obtained through our co-operation with the Americans, without their agreement. It can be argued that the expense and effort of producing weapons other than their warheads may be shared within N.A.T.O. But it is the warheads which give the control. All these things must and will be studied, but I am thinking of things as they now stand and of the situation with which we are presently faced.
What is the real purpose that lies behind the plan to put the deterrent forces under N.A.T.O. control—I mean its true purpose? Is it to make the deterrent stronger or weaker? Is it fear that the British and Americans, who now own and control the deterrent, might be tempted to use it too rashly and, therefore, it should be subjected to the control of other N.A.T.O. countries? Is it some idea of taking it out of the hands of soldiers and putting it into the hands of civilian authorities?

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If the latter, I can assure the House that, under the British and American systems, control must and does rest with the elected Government.
If the deterrent is to deter, its immediate use in counter-attack against aggression must be credible to the potential aggressor. Without that, it is purposeless. Are we so sure that, with fifteen representatives, whether ambassadors or Ministers, in N.A.T.O. acting under the unanimity rule, the deterrent would continue to be credible? There might be one finger on the trigger, but there would be fifteen fingers on the safety catch. I hope, therefore, that we shall not be asked to discuss vague references to strengthening N.A.T.O. in this respect without considering exactly what this plan means and its effect upon the value of the deterrent.
Others propose that we in Britain should abandon the nuclear deterrent. They naturally hope that other countries will not enter the field that we are to abandon. Of course, they think that our lead may be followed by other countries. As for the latter, I cannot speak for the French Government, but I doubt whether, until there is some real progress in disarmament as regards nuclear weapons, the French Government would follow such a lead. We know that they would not.
What is the real purpose of the proposal that Britain should abandon the nuclear deterrent on which we have spent so much effort and great resources? Is it on moral grounds? I can understand those who are against any form of armaments, especially nuclear armaments and, like conscientious pacifists, would accept the consequences; but I cannot understand those who believe that the bomb is wicked for us but at the same time are ready to accept the protection which the American bomb affords. Nobody has more mercilessly denounced the hypocrisy of this attitude than the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition.
Is it on political grounds? But by a strange paradox, this proposal generally is made by those who are most anxious for us to increase our separate and independent influence in world policy and are most doubtful of our close friendship with America and most critical of American policy. Yet I cannot believe
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that our influence would be greater either upon American policy or world policy if we are forced, for any reason, to follow this course and abdicate our share in this common responsibility.
Is it on grounds of economy? That must be carefully studied. The burdens on our economy are very heavy. This must always cause anxiety. How strong is the economy argument? If we were to abandon the nuclear bomb, should we dismantle the bomber force? Not at all. The bombers are a necessary part of conventional defensive armaments. But it is said that we will build up with the money saved larger and more effective conventional forces. That is much argued. I think that there is something in this, but I must observe that if we are to have more men—in other words, if we are to abandon the plan of modest regular Forces on which we are now working—we shall have to find a method of recruiting more men, either voluntarily or compulsorily, for these larger armies.
Expensive as the weapons are, the men are more expensive. Let us consider the Defence Estimates for 1960–61. It is estimated that we shall spend £1,618 million. Of this, £1,450 million, or 90 per cent., already goes on conventional forces. Moreover, we must face the fact, whether we like it or not, that, apart from the strategic nuclear, the tactical nuclear has now come into being, even in N.A.T.O. We supply a large part of the tactical bomber force. We also use short-range rockets which are in the nature of high-powered artillery. Are these to be accounted conventional or non-conventional? I do not think that the purely economic argument for the abandonment of a contribution to the nuclear deterrent is at present sound.
We do take all these things into account. Our policies must be adapted and modified, but we must not rush from one extreme to another. Oppositions are right to discuss and debate what their policies might be if they were entrusted with power, even if that possibility may seem reasonably remote, but Governments have to take things as they are. They have to deal with facts. I am persuaded that, broadly speaking, in the field of defence we should continue calmly and with determination on the general lines that we are now pursuing.

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As I have said, after the failure of the Summit Meeting we had some Western discussions about the future, including economic problems. I had just come from the Commonwealth Conference, in which economic questions played a most important part, for, in our Commonwealth comradeship, we see reflected, in a way, the pattern of the whole world. We have less developed countries, and then we have others which have reached a high standard of production and industrialisation and which seek to improve all the time their own wealth and strength, for their own purposes and in order to do their duty to their less industrialised fellow members.
Looking at the world as a whole, I think that there is a general desire, whether through G.A.T.T., or by any other means, to maximise world trade and not to restrict it. Above all—and this the Foreign Secretary and I discussed frankly with our French colleagues, President de Gaulle, Prime Minister Debré and Mr. Couve de Murville—we all recognised the need to increase our efforts, in an understanding and constructive spirit, to see how the strength of Western Europe —or what remains of it—can be increased and not weakened by the economic developments taking place.
Hon. Members will have seen the recent approach made by the Six to the Seven, and the spirit in which the Seven have responded. These negotiations will not be easy—not because of any but because of the intricacy of the problem, affecting as it does not merely the thirteen nations concerned but their relations with other countries. It would be wrong, therefore, to suppose that this problem can be readily resolved.
The United Kingdom certainly could not contribute to a solution by adopting sudden and unexpected changes of course, or by abandoning old or new friends. We have our Commonwealth trading connections, which are based on long traditions—I might almost say emotions. We have recently entered—by formal agreement, signed and ratified—the European Free Trade Association. With this body, and in full consultation with the Commonwealth, we shall enter into these new discussions. I believe that these developments would have taken place in any event, but I feel that they have been made more urgent and perhaps less difficult as
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a result of the failure of the Summit Conference.
In my report to the House ten days ago, I posed the question whether we should regard the collapse of the Summit as an isolated episode or as an indication of a deliberate change in Russian policy. I said then that I did not know. To be frank, I still do not know; I do not think anybody really knows. Perhaps even the Russians do not know. Nevertheless, the consequences for the Western nations, whether in the political, military or economic field, do not seem to me to demand any radical change on either interpretation. We need all the time to examine our political efforts in order to bring them closer and closer in tune.
The need far economic unity in Europe is just as great; the need for maintaining our military strength is just as vital. For, after all, at this first Summit Meeting we had never hoped to bring about a full solution of the problems which divide the world. What we hoped to do was to take a first step on the road. Therefore, we must nerve ourselves to greater efforts as a result of what has happened. But we do not need to contemplate any radical change in the broad policies which we are pursuing; on the contrary, we should regard this setback as a stimulus to urge us forward with greater determination.
As I said, I had not hoped for anything very fundamental at the first Summit Meeting. I told the House so before I went. I had hoped, above all, of course, for the settlement, during this period when the statesmen concerned were gathered together, of some of the major outstanding points of the nuclear test negotiations; I had hoped for some agreement among us all on certain principles to govern more detailed disarmament discussions, and I had hoped for some accommodation on Berlin. But even if we had achieved these objectives we could not have lowered our guard, disbanded our alliances, weakened our military contributions, or thought the economic co-operation of the different groups in Europe and the world any less necessary. We must equally be ready to treat the whole melancholy story as an episode, and be ready "when the dust settles"—to use Mr. Khrushchev's own words—to believe that

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the general policy of the détente will again be acceptable to the Soviet Government.
I have said that we must be realists and face the dangers which lie ahead. But we must not lose faith in our own policies because of a single setback. Preparedness is not inconsistent with the détente, by which I mean the policy of genuine co-existence—the policy of trying to remove, one by one, the causes of friction and suspicion between the two sides. This policy seems to me as right now as it was before. At any rate, so long as I have anything to do with the conduct of affairs, I intend to pursue it.
I am fortified in this not only by my own feeling and what I believe to be the feeling of my fellow countrymen, but by the full support which was shown by the Heads of the American and French States. President de Gaulle, who presided with great dignity and skill over a most painful series of meetings and discussions, never wavered from this approach, and President Eisenhower, who has been so fine and staunch a support of this policy, repeated and reaffirmed his faith in his broadcast a day or two ago. Moreover, after the rather trying hours of that Tuesday, we decided that night to issue a declaration of which I think all our countries can be proud, both as regards its tone and substance at that time. I would like to quote it again. The Heads of Government said that they remained unshaken in their conviction that
"all outstanding international questions should be settled not by the use or threat of force but by peaceful means through negotiation."
They added these important words:
"… they remained ready "—
that is, the three Heads of Government concerned—
"to take part in such negotiations at any suitable time in the future."
I think that, in the situation in which we found ourselves, this statement was a good statement, and that it represents exactly the spirit in which we should face the months and years which lie ahead of us.
As regards the immediate future, let me first deal with the negotiations happily still continuing. In my statement on 20th May, I referred to the two conferences at Geneva, the Nuclear Tests
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and Disarmament Conferences. I said then that it was our hope that it would have been possible at the Summit to bring the Nuclear Tests Conference near to agreement and also to help the Disarmament Conference to make real progress. We certainly intend, so far as we are able, to see that both these conferences continue their work.
In fact, the Nuclear Tests Conference has resumed its main meetings while a sub-committee of experts has been considering a co-
ordinated seismic research programme between the three countries concerned for the detection of underground tests. These experts have made good progress so far and I am still hopeful that this conference will succeed, and that the issues which we hoped to settle at the Summit will be settled at this conference.
As for the Disarmament Conference, the West has been accused of procrastination. I must say that I am disappointed at the lack of progress, but the blame for this does not really lie with the West. Bearing in mind the past history of disarmament and the complexity of the subject, we must not be impatient. Even before the events in Paris, we did not expect a quick solution of this great problem, but we shall continue to do our utmost to get the conference to discuss practical issues and to take constructive action. We shall certainly not allow ourselves to be discouraged or diverted from the aims which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary put before the United Nations last September.
In addition, I should like to say a word about some wider questions. There has been a good deal of discussion lately, and quite naturally, about the wisdom or otherwise of modern diplomatic methods. It is said that all the peregrination of Ministers, more especially these meetings of Heads of Government, is a development to be deplored. I can quite understand that view. It may well be that in the rather different conditions of the past we were right to use the older methods, but we really cannot escape from the present; we cannot ignore the facts of life.
After all, it is only a very few years ago when any of us in this House could excuse ourselves from an engagement in a distant part of this country because of the time that it would take to get

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there and back again. Now we are asked to go 4,000 or 5,000 miles to a conference, and everyone knows that one can get there as quickly as one can on the night train to Glasgow. This development, therefore, seems to me inevitable. It has it merits as well as its disadvantages.
In the various meetings of Parliamentarians, which in the old world would have been quite impossible, whether in the Commonwealth or in Europe, great friendships have been made which are of value. Equally, in the ranks of Ministers and ex-Ministers there are now in many countries men who have worked together and who retain from that experience a sense of comradeship and loyalty. Certainly this method of meetings of Heads of Government is not to be followed for its own sake, but there has been, and we all know it, a general acceptance of the view that, in addition to what can be done by diplomats and Foreign Ministers, there may be circumstances in which conclusions cannot be reached, especially when dealing with the Soviet Government, except by the Heads of Government themselves.
The idea of the Summit was a response to this real need as well as to something like a spontaneous demand of ordinary people all over the world. It is quite true that this Summit Conference can be said to have broken down. All I can plead in mitigation is that it never even started. However, what we must do is utilise all the means available, diplomatic, ministerial and any other, and be ready, in the terms of the Communique, for negotiation "at any suitable time" by future meetings of Heads of Government. In spite of what has happened, I do not think that we should lose heart, for, after all, the policy of détente, to use the accepted phrase, is clearly in the interests of the Western world.
The struggle on its material side is, of course, a struggle of military and economic power. But it is also a struggle for the minds of men. Sometimes I think that we are not sufficiently conscious of the forces that are on our side. In this struggle the Soviet Union is in a sense at a disadvantage. Because of the nature of the closed society, its leaders seem hardly to attune themselves to the thoughts and feelings of the outside
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world. That is perhaps why Mr. Khrushchev's Press conference in Paris had an effect so unexpected by him. It seemed out of date both in manner and in substance.
I cannot help feeling that the changes which have taken place in Russia and the other Communist countries round Russia are not unimportant. If it be true that the Soviet Prime Minister did have to adapt his tactics as a result of a temporary incident, he is himself, nevertheless, the chief protagonist of the policy of greater approach between the two sides which succeeded the dark years of Stalin. I saw myself, when I was in Russia, a greater freedom of movement, discussion and argument than I expected. I realised how the common people had their hearts set on peace and prosperity. All this cannot fade in a day.
I was particularly struck in some of the recent Communist propaganda that I have read, including the speeches, by the falsity of the old chatter about imperialism, colonialism and capitalism; all the more so, perhaps, because I went to Paris immediately after the most heartening Commonwealth Conference I certainly have ever attended. What a contrast was this reality of a gathering of men from the five Continents, of seven Seas, of people of all races, creeds—
Mr. Sydney Silverman (Nelson and Colne): Colour.
The Prime Minister: —traditions and colour, to the figment painted by the propagandists in Moscow.
Mr. Harold Davies: What about South Africa?
The Prime Minister: I will come to that. It is true that we had a discussion of great interest on the racial problem. This is a question which we did not shirk, but, although important, it by no means dominated all our thoughts and discussions to the exclusion of others. I certainly have never attended a meeting where there was so much manifest agreement on the great underlying issues which divide the world.
All the Prime Ministers present were conscious of a situation with its hopes and its dangers. Both Russia and China now bear upon the Commonwealth from different sides. I felt that we were more united in our general point of view than

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at any time since the end of the First World War. We recognised, as I say, the problems of racial organisation which confront us. But the intense interest in economic developments, the belief in freedom, the opposition to Communism, the faith—these were the constructive questions which preoccupied all the Prime Ministers. I certainly felt uplifted and fortified by this Conference before I set out for the abortive conference in Paris.
It can, of course, be argued, and no doubt is argued, by powerful forces in the Communist world that we are all moving to an inevitable final clash. After all, this is the orthodox Marxist doctrine. However, since Marx lived and wrote long before the coming of the nuclear age, perhaps even orthodox theorists will gradually attune their dogmas to the facts of modern life. All the same, one will, no doubt, hear this view held in Russia. We may, perhaps, hear people express it, too, in other countries. But to accept final disaster as inevitable seems to me contrary to the fundamentals of human nature. Certainly it is something which we can never accept.
If we believe in our point of view, if we believe in the kind of way we work and live together and debate and argue, sometimes with great strength and even bitterness but still remembering that we are one people and that, after all, however strongly opinions are expressed, perhaps they may be wrong; if we believe in give and take, and above all in the individual freedom which is the characteristic of Western society today; if we believe that, for all its weaknesses, the kind of social structure which we are developing, while it may have its material side, is able to bring out the latent spiritual and idealist strains in every soul; if we believe this, then the policy, not of weakness, not of surrender, not of depriving ourselves of the power which it is our duty to use and hold for peace, but the policy of trying to gain time, of reducing tension, of gradually getting the nations to know one another better, and of trading together, and reading one another's literature, enjoying one another's art, making more and more contacts—that must be the policy which it is night to follow.
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It seems to me, therefore, that the lesson is simple. We must not retire from the struggle, as the pacifists or defeatists would have us do.
Mr. Harold Davies: We do not.
The Prime Minister: We must not yield to pressure; nor, as some few, wild and irresponsible people might hope, should we provoke what is called a showdown. We must just labour on patiently and with faith.
4.12 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: At the beginning of his speech the Prime Minister said that it would be a mistake to spend much time in this debate analysing the causes of the Summit collapse. He said that we should rather concentrate on the future. No doubt there is much to be said for that point of view, but I must say that I wish the Prime Minister had given us in the course of his speech some rather clearer ideas as to what policies in the future he thought we should pursue.
I thought it a very strange speech indeed on such an occasion. Part of it seemed to me to be devoted to almost any subject except the one we are supposed to be discussing today. He gave us some interesting reflections on defence—no doubt matters which can be discussed on another occasion. He talked about economic affairs, though without any great precision. He referred to the glories of the Commonwealth, though he omitted to say very much about certain racial problems which have been very much in the public eye. He expressed, in certain cases, certainly most admirable sentiments with which none of us could quarrel, but he did not seem to me to advance the debate very far.
I have no intention of spending too much time analysing and speculating on what happened the week before last. But when all is said and done, what happened is a new element in the international situation, and surely we must try at least to learn what lessons we can from it.
Of course, we cannot be sure exactly what causes lay behind it, and, of course, our conclusions are inevitably influenced by our general views of American and Soviet policies and how these policies are formed. There are, no doubt, some

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who believe that American policy was responsible for the breakdown at the Summit, even that there was deliberate wrecking of the Conference through the continuation of the U2 flights and in the statements made afterwards, as well as, incidentally, in Mr. Gates's alert. Others, on the other side, are convinced that Mr. Khrushchev decided even before the U2 episode that the Conference would lead nowhere and, therefore, that there was no purpose in proceeding with it.
For my part, I do not agree with either of these standpoints. It seems to me clear that the immediate decision to wreck the Conference was a Russian decision, but, as Mr. Adlai Stevenson said, the tools for the job were handed to the Russians by the American Government.
On 12th May, when we last discussed foreign affairs, immediately before the Summit, I said that I did not think that we should be too mealy-mouthed about espionage, and I added that it was inept and stupid of the Americans to allow flights like the U2 flight to take place just before the Summit. I expressed concern about statements which were subsequently made justifying these flights and implying that they would continue. I said that I thought they were quite clearly a violation of international law, and I pressed the Government to urge upon the American Government that they should not proceed with them. I pointed out that they were not like ordinary cases of espionage in that they clearly involved the danger of conflict arising from them, and that, in any event, they should not be undertaken without the consent of allies.
I hold that those criticisms are no less justified today than they were then. The flights, we are told, have now been stopped, but there are two questions which I should like to put to the Government and which I hope the Foreign Secretary will be able to answer. Can we be assured that the failure of the Summit has made no difference whatever to President Eisenhower's statement that he had given orders for the flights not to be resumed? He made that statement, of course, on the first day, on the Monday, of the Conference week. I do not think it has yet been made quite clear whether it holds good. I trust indeed that it does.
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Secondly, there have been protests from Norway and from Pakistan about the use of bases in their countries for these flights. I should like to ask the Government whether they will give us an assurance that no flights of this kind can take place from bases in Britain without the consent of the Government, and, further, that the Government would not give their consent for these flights. Whatever one may feel about the merits of the whole situation, the danger of surprise attack and the argument in favour of obtaining information, the plain fact is that it has now become much too dangerous to continue with these flights at all.
One further decision, possibly the worst misjudgment of all, was, I fear, made by President Eisenhower when he decided not to announce his decision to stop the flights until four days after the decision had been made. The Prime Minister described this as a matter of tactics. I hardly think it can be dismissed so easily, though, of course, I agree that one's view of its significance depends on what one thinks the situation on the other side, the Soviet side, really was.
I should like to say a word or two about that. It seems to me perfectly clear that at the beginning Mr. Khrushchev did not wish to make too much of the U2 episode. I do not think it good enough for the Prime Minister to say, "Well, after all, in a country like the Soviet Union the whole affair could easily have been suppressed." No doubt that is true, but we must surely see exactly what happened, and what happened was this, that to begin with Mr. Khrushchev played it soft. He went out of his way to say that he did not imagine that President Eisenhower had anything to do with it. He went out of his way to be complimentary to the American ambassador. He said that in any event he thought the Summit Conference could continue.
Indeed, I would remind the House that on 12th May, when we had our debate, it was the general assumption of all of us, I think, that because of the way Mr. Khrushchev had handled the position the Summit Conference would continue. I myself said that it might possibly have stopped the Summit

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Conference but that this now seemed extremely unlikely. All the evidence, then, is that these successive statements which began as very mild affairs, and which admittedly became stronger and more hostile to the Americans, continued to indicate that they intended to go on with the Summit talks right up to the moment when Mr. Khrushchev arrived in Paris.
It is true that there is evidence that at the same time there was some opposition to his policy at home, that there was some kind of conflict between those who, like himself, wanted the Summit Conference to take place, and opposition members, so to speak, who did not share his opinion. But even on his arrival at Orly Airport on the Saturday, far from giving any sign that he thought this upset was going to wreck the Conference, Mr. Khrushchev went out of his way to reiterate what he had said so often before—that he hoped it would succeed. He expressed the hope that discussion at the Summit of such things as disarmament, Germany, and East-West relations would yield useful results. He promised that the Soviet Union would exert all its efforts to make the Conference a success. He expressed the view that the Summit must play a very important role in international affairs. He recalled that the four Heads of Government had got to know one another fairly well at previous meetings and he thought that this would help the Conference along.
This was a tremendously significant thing to say in view of what he afterwards said about President Eisenhower. It is completely inconsistent with and completely different from the line that he was taking forty-eight hours later. Therefore, it seems to me that there is little doubt that within these twenty-four or forty-eight hours, for some reason or another, Mr. Khrushchev changed his mind. We do not know why. It may well have been through internal pressures, but he changed it and put forward then what I agree were conditions unacceptable to the American Government. But all this suggests that the timing of President Eisenhower's announcement that the flights were to be stopped may in the light of history be seen to have been of immense significance.
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The Americans themselves are conducting their own inquiry, and I am very glad that that is so. It is far better that they should investigate what happened on their side than that we should try to do it here. I wish that on the Soviet side we could see much hope of a similar inquiry. We cannot. Therefore, I think that we must leave it still as something which, for the moment at least, is wrapped in mystery. But this debate is the only opportunity we have of inquiring into the part played by Her Majesty's Government. In the light of that, there are some questions that I wish to put to the Foreign Secretary which I hope he will be able to answer, because it may throw some light on the reasons for the collapse of the Summit.
The first question is this: what consultations, if any, took place between the British and American Governments after the announcement of the capture of the U2 plane? Did we give any advice to the American Government on how this issue should be handled? Did they seek our advice, or did they proceed entirely on their own without any consultation whatever? Secondly, did the letter from Mr. Khrushchev to the Prime Minister on 9th May indicate that at this stage there was already in his mind the possibility that the Summit Conference would have to be abandoned, or did Mr. Khrushchev merely indicate that he was worried about it and that he looked forward to preliminary talks to get these difficulties out of the way? This is a matter which obviously has an immense bearing on the Russian intentions at the time. Then, as to Paris itself, did Mr. Khrushchev, when the Prime Minister saw him, rehearse to him, as it were, the speech that he was to make on the following morning, and was the Prime Minister in a position to tell him, and did he tell him then, of President Eisenhower's decision to stop the flights?
I think that these questions are fair. I can see no particular reason why the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary should not answer them now. They throw considerable light on the Soviet attitude. If one reads the White Paper, "Documents Relating to the Meetings", there is one other question that comes to one's mind. It may well be that already by Monday it was too late. It

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may be that the Tuesday afternoon meeting in any event would have served no useful purpose, but it is a little strange that the three Western leaders apparently decided that this meeting to which they invited Mr. Khrushchev was not to be a preliminary one to discuss further conditions for the start of the Summit but was to be a formal first meeting of the Summit Conference to discuss the things on the agenda for the Conference.
I do not understand quite why, when Mr. Khrushchev telephoned originally through one of his officials and inquired whether the meeting of the afternoon of the Tuesday was the one or the other, he could not have been told—after all, the three Western leaders were already themselves in conference then—that it was a preliminary discussion. They need not have given anything away by doing that. They could at least have made a last effort. If there was a last chance, this surely was it. It seems a great pity that no attempt was made to take it. Even if it failed and simply showed that Mr. Khrushchev was adamant in adhering to the three conditions he had made earlier, at least from the point of view of world opinion it would have been surely wise to show that the West was leaning over backwards to get the Conference started.
Much has been made of the so-called alert which the Secretary of Defence, Mr. Gates, ordered on Sunday evening; but we have had no adequate Government statement on this matter. I should like to ask the Government whether they were consulted before this was decided upon and whether it is normal for them to be consulted on these occasions. Perhaps they could say why, even if the military people decided that the alert was desirable, it was necessary to make it public and to make a formal announcement to this effect. This, surely, was a very ham-handed thing to do in top of everything else.
So much for the details of the week before last. I should like to make a few comments on the wider issue. The first and perhaps most important question to which we have to address ourselves is this: has Soviet policy changed fundamentally? Is there or is there not a reversion to Stalinism? I would have
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thought that there was no doubt about the answer at the present moment. There seems to me at present no reason for believing that Soviet policy has gone back to Stalinism. If indeed that had been the case, we surely could have expected that Mr. Khrushchev, instead of announcing in Berlin that he would delay any action in the direction of signing a peace treaty with East Germany after the Summit, would have done so immediately. Nor is it likely, if this were the case, that the American plane that strayed off its course and landed in East Germany would have been so promptly and courteously returned. There has been, so far as I know, no change made in Soviet policy towards the granting of visas to Americans, and there has been no demonstration in Moscow, as there has been in Pekin, against the West on this occasion.
There is, of course, the question of the speeches made by Mr. Khrushchev and the Press conference that he gave. I have had a little experience, not as much as the Prime Minister, of listening to Mr. Khrushchev. I have come to the conclusion that one must distinguish sharply between his manner and his matter. He makes speeches which are at times offensive, violent and bullying in tone. Although he has done this—he certainly did it again at the Press conference—in the content of the speech he did not commit Soviet policy to any change whatever.
It is true that his attacks on President Eisenhower are distasteful and offensive and undoubtedly cause great resentment in the United States. My own view is that Mr. Khrushchev makes them for home consumption. I could wish that he thought a little more about their repercussions on American opinion, because it is not a question of President Eisenhower: it is a question of what these speeches will do to American opinion generally and whether they do not prejudice the chance of the next President coming to a Summit Conference. I hope that if Mr. Khrushchev reflects on this, he may, perhaps, modify them in the future.
It is, however, in my opinion, almost certain that there is, and indeed always has been, in the Soviet Union a certain amount of opposition to Mr. Khrushchev's policy from within. I agreed with something the Prime Minister said at the end of his speech when he spoke of Mr. Khrushchev

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being the man who, quite plainly, had stood for the policy of conciliation and co-existence. That is certainly true, but that there is internal opposition seems, on the face of it, extremely likely.
We have a different situation in Russia as compared with the time of Stalin. Whether it be because the secret police are no longer under the control of the Head of State or Prime Minister, or whatever may be the reason, there are clear signs of far more internal discussion at the top of the Soviet Government than there used to be under Stalin. Within those quarters, there probably always has been, and still is, opposition. I should not be the least surprised if the Army, threatened with a substantial reduction and the dismissal from the service of a quarter of a million officers, were not to make its influence felt. It is all very well to say that those people will get good jobs somewhere else, but they are human beings and probably fear the loss of their status, prestige and position.
Nor is it to be denied that there is a substantial difference of outlook on the whole question of relations with the West between the Chinese Government and the Soviet Union. It would be surprising if there were not some people in high places in the Soviet Union who were influenced by that and, perhaps, in close touch with China. These differences need not surprise us. If less dramatic, they exist in the West as well.
I am not saying that we have in the East and in the West groups of evil, malevolent persons who are determined to bring the world to ruin. It is not like that at all. What we have in both cases are people who are convinced that negotiations with the other side may damage their own national interests. We know that this is the case with the United States. It is undeniable that some of the scientists, and, I have no doubt, some of the generals, sincerely and honestly believe that if, for instance, the United States accepts a ban on tests, with a moratorium, which would be unenforceable for the time concerning the small explosions, this would put the United States behind in the race, and Russia would have an advantage. I have no doubt that, equally, there are people in Russia who are genuinely fearful of the establishment of control posts because of
1020
the information thereby obtained by the West and a consequent weakening of the Russian position. We have to accept that that is so.
Despite the existence of these groups, however, we should not get into the habit, as the result of what has happened in Paris, of becoming either anti-Russian or anti-American. It is easy to do so. We can say to ourselves, "It does not really matter who was responsible. Between them, they made an awful mess of it. Either they were intentional, which is certainly bad enough, or, even if they did it unintentionally, what a situation for the rest of the world to be, as it were, at the mercy of these two clumsy giants". It is tempting to say "Cannot we somehow cut away from them?"
I do not think that that is the way out. It is better that we should learn the real lessons from this, and they are rather different. First, the lesson that I would propose to the House is that our influence—I mean particularly the British influence—should be thrown against those groups in both blocs who oppose negotiations. This means not merely being generally in favour of conciliation. It means bearing in mind, and urging others to bear in mind, that in everything we say and do, we must take into account the existence of opposition on the other side. We must be careful, in other words, not to play into the hands of the opposition groups, as the U2 episode evidently did.
Secondly, we must remember—and here I agree with the Prime Minister—that the need to come to terms between Russia and the West is just as urgent and overriding and compelling as it always has been. It is true, in my view, that the West and the Western alliance must have nuclear weapons so long as the Russians have them, but there is no denying that the balance of power is a very precarious one. Our aim must be constantly to reduce the power evenly on both sides so that it becomes, as it were, weaker and weaker.
I would add just this. There is a special danger arising out of this business of surprise attacks. Obviously, if one thinks that the other side is likely to launch a surprise attack, the temptation to get in first is overwhelming. In our defence policies, this leads surely

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to the tremendously important conclusion that our retaliatory weapons should be essentially retaliatory and not, first, strike weapons. That is to say, they should be weapons which we are likely to be able to use in the event of attack and not weapons which are almost certain to be knocked out in the event of the Russians getting in first. This is one of the most powerful arguments against the Thor missiles, which on these grounds we on these benches have opposed.
The third lesson that we must learn is that it is no use thinking for some time of another Summit Conference. I agree largely with the Prime Minister that there is equally no point in going to the opposite extreme and saying that diplomatic channels are better. The truth is that we wanted the Summit because the diplomatic channels were not working, or were not working effectively. That may still be the case. For obvious reasons, however, it is no use trying to re-create the Summit for some little time.
What we should now try to do is to negotiate through normal diplomatic channels and conferences what we hoped to do at the Summit. That brings me to two or three points. The first relates to tests. It is good news that the expert discussions are going along well, but we must note the Russian threat to resume tests if the United States does. The Russians demand that the civil tests which the Americans are proposing, and which I gather are being discussed at Geneva, should not be made use of for military purposes. Just how this assurance is to be given, I do not know. I drew attention to this in the last debate. It is a matter of immense importance.
I should like to ask the Government a question. In the last debate, the Foreign Secretary told us that, as far as he could see, under the American proposals no tests would take place except those which had been agreed upon either as part of the co-ordinated research programme or as civil tests which were to be allowed and which were outside the scope of the moratorium. It was good to have those assurances last time, but, as far as I am aware, the United States Government have not repeated them in public, and I should like to ask again, therefore, whether we may take it that it is the policy of the West that no tests should
1022
take place except those which are agreed upon in the negotiations at Geneva with the Russians.
Secondly, on disarmament, I can only repeat what I said before. The chaos of procedure points to the need for introducing some kind of neutral chairman, and here I should have thought that we might take a hint from Mr. Hammarskjoeld, who recently indicated that he thought the United Nations could, and should, be broght into these matters.
Thirdly, and most important, I beg the Government to urge that China and India be asked to join this conference. The House will have noticed Mr. Khrushchev's latest speech in which he proposed that China and India, and he mentioned Indonesia as well, should come to the next Summit. It seems to me that there is quite a chance that Mr. Khrushchev himself will make this proposal that China should come to the next Disarmament Conference, and if we were to be in the position where we refused that, I think we would lose the support of a very large part of the world. How much better, then, that we should take the initiative in making this proposal.
I urge, too, that here we want some positive action, and that we in the West should now say that we will reduce the size of the conventional forces to 1½ million from the maximum of 21 million, which was put forward in 1955 and which they are to reach in the first stage; and I urge, too, that we should bring into the first stage of the programme the question of the means of delivery, which is obviously so vital.
In the last debate the Foreign Secretary spoke of the West putting forward proposals for expert consultation on this and on some other matters. Has anything been done about that? If not, is there really any reason why we should not come out with a formal proposal to that affect? The advantage of such a proposal would be that it would do something to break the ice, and would do something to indicate that we at least on our side were not going to relapse into chauvinism.
Finally, on the question of the zone of controlled disarmament in Western Europe, the Foreign Secretary said last time that the Government approached it

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from the point of view of defence against surprise attack. If he wishes to put it under that general heading, we do not mind. Evidently that is one of the arguments for such a zone, but are we to understand, from what he said last time, that the Western Powers have agreed on proposals to this end which they were intending to put forward at the Summit? If that is the case, why not put them forward now?
If one asks where they should be put forward, I do not think that there is any great difficulty in answering that question. If the Foreign Secretary does not want to put them forward through the Minister of State at the Disarmament Conference, I suggest that he might ask for the matter to be put on the agenda of the Security Council of the United Nations and himself go to New York and put them forward there.
That brings me to another suggestion which I think is well worth following up. If we go on as we are now with nothing but hostile speeches from each side, and with even the present conference drifting along without much hope, we could get into a worse and worse situation. Is it not worth while the West deciding to try to establish communications with the Soviet Government and taking up some of these problems in the United Nations itself? I should have thought that was well worth looking at.
May I now say a word about our own affairs in the West? I consider that it is necessary to improve political cohesion and control in the Western alliance. I think that the U2 episode and the Gates alert show that very plainly indeed. But there is nothing new in this. In 1956—ironically enough, the year of Suez—the three so-called "wise men" of N.A.T.O., Lange, Pearson, and Martino, produced a report, at the request of the Council, on ways and means of improving both coordination and consultation. I do not think that very much seems to have been done about it.
The problem here, however, is not just a matter of cohesion of policy within the N.A.T.O. territorial area. Again and again the problem is that something happens in the rest of the world as a result of the policy of one of the great Powers which is of very direct concern to
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N.A.T.O. The U2 incident is only the latest example of this. I personally have come to the conclusion that the old hypothesis that one can separate what happens in Europe from what happens in the rest of the world and that we can consult together whenever it comes to Europe, but we do not consult together, and act independently, when it is the outside world, will not do any longer. Indeed, the whole of the military situation, and the defence policy based on it, needs re-examination.
In 1958 President de Gaulle proposed that there should be some manner by which at least those countries in N.A.T.O. with world responsibility and concern should meet together for consultation. I know that there were objections from smaller Powers to the particular proposals he put forward, but there is, after all, a military standing group of the three Powers, Britain, America and France, in Washington, and there always has been. I have never seen why we could not agree to President de Gaulle's proposals for a political group of the same kind. Alternatively, as I suggested the other day, I think that there is a strong case for giving greater authority to the permanent N.A.T.O. Council, by appointing, at least in the case of the larger and more powerful countries, Ministers to take their places there.
The Prime Minister referred to the question of political control over the military. We on these benches certainly hold very strongly that the decision whether to use nuclear weapons is one that cannot conceivably be left to the generals but must be taken by Governments. The Prime Minister seemed to imply that there was no difficulty about that, but he went on to ask how one could have control with fourteen other countries. I do not think that it will do as it stands, and my reflection on what the Prime Minister said is just this. He said that the political control was there. But until it is seen how it will operate, nobody will be convinced about it, and I think one has to face this problem of some kind of inner—if one likes informal—circle of the countries most deeply concerned.
In passing, I should like to refer to the admirable Report to the Western European Union prepared by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Park

1025
(Mr. Mulley). I commend it strongly to hon. Members as a brilliant analysis of the present situation of N.A.T.O., and a powerful argument for political control over nuclear weapons. It also includes a powerful argument for throwing the emphasis in N.A.T.O.'s strategy on to conventional and away from nuclear weapons.
The Prime Minister might bring up, as I have done myself, the question of conscription, but we believe that, within the limits set by voluntary service, it ought to be possible very substantially to strengthen the conventional element and so defer the moment—and this is vitally important—at which we may have to begin thinking about nuclear weapons.
If we are to get more political cohesion and control in N.A.T.O., there is one other thing we have to do, and that is to re-assess our own position in relation to Europe. In the early post-war period, when O.E.E.C., N.A.T.O., and the W.E.U. were founded, we were, after the United States, easily the dominant Power. We had automatically, as it were, a special position vis-à-vis the United States. The fact is that in the last ten years Europe has changed in a very complete manner, and we now have, thanks to its economic recovery, its employment, and its economic and political unity, a new situation. We have to live with that new situation. It is not likely to be changed, and the time has come when we must accept it. We have to live with it economically—the Prime Minister referred to the efforts being made in that direction—politicallyand I have said something to that effect—and militarily as well.
We still feel, if I might end on some of the remarks of the Prime Minister, that one of the great issues that we have to face is whether we can stop this spread of nuclear weapons to more and more countries, including those within N.A.T.O. We have to recognise, in looking at this problem, that we are unlikely to be able for very much longer to maintain the privileged position which we have in relation to the United States on defence matters, and other matters as well. It seems highly unlikely as Germany and France go on growing, particularly if the union there becomes a political reality, that the United States
1026
will be able, even if it wishes, to discriminate between us and the rest of Europe. Indeed, if we try to insist on this priviledged position, we shall, I think, make our relations with Europe worse without improving them with the United States.
There has been a wide measure of agreement about the Summit and about what should now be done. I believe that most of the things that I have proposed are acceptable to hon. Members opposite. We certainly want to see the Government continue more vigorously their policy of reconciliation, and if the Russians and the Americans find this difficult and are estranged from one another, then there is all the more reason for our initiative. But we shall not succeed in this unless we can improve our relations with Europe. This is necessary in any case, but now that these two strands have come together, I hope that the Government will pursue a policy which will both improve the cohesion and control of the Western alliance and improve our relations with Europe, and, above all, indefatigably work for the relaxing of tension and the settlement of disputes and disarmament throughout the world.
4.52 p.m.
Mr. Nigel Birch: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition will not accuse me of discourtesy if I do not follow his speech in detail. I have promised to make a short speech and I intend to keep that promise. However, some of his points I will take up. I shall certainly not take up all the amateur detective work about what actually happened in Paris. The right hon. Gentleman seemed too determined to play Dr. Watson to my right hon. Friend's Sherlock Holmes. It is not a very profitable investigation.
When considering what has been saved from the ruins of the Summit I am quite certain that my right hon. Friend was right to put his finger unerringly on the main point, which is that the Western alliance has been saved, the sum of things has been saved, because if the alliance had broken then the future would indeed be dark. But that alliance over these last few months has suffered a good many strains, and perhaps we may be able to see more clearly what we ought to do in the future if we

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consider what some of those strains have been.
Take the first point raised by both right hon. Gentlemen, the U2 incident. On the whole, I think that people in this country have been extremely sensible about that. The word "spy" is, of course, not a popular word in England. "Spy" and "spy plane" sound very nasty. But we, on the other hand, are generally proud of our intelligence service, sometimes justly so. Of course, Britons do not spy they simply collect information which might be of interest to our intelligence services. That is quite a different matter.
Of course, the Russians have the greatest spy apparatus in the world and they are greatly aided by the fact that every Communist and fellow-traveller feels it his duty to pass on to the Russians any information which he can get. We must not forget that Fuchs gave them the whole of the information about our atom bomb and thereby probably saved them two years' work. But that is not the point I am raising. My point is a simple one.
What information could the American plane have got for the Americans by high-level reconnaissance over Russia? Surely the answer is, exactly the information which anybody in a free country can get for themselves. In a free country the maps are accurate. If you want to know where the aerodromes are in a free country you can look them up on the map. You can drive there and see what aeroplanes are flying from them. Launching sites are easier still. If you see a muddy girl with black stockings, it is probable that she has come from a rocket site. She will be only too pleased to tell you where it is.
These considerations do not apply in Russia. The maps are inaccurate and there is no free movement there. Even Russians have to get permits to move about and no one would be such a fool as to protest. The fact is that all this sort of information about the countries of the free world is available for nothing to the Russians whereas equivalent information about the Russians is not available to the free world. This confers on the Russians a very great military advantage. I am not the least surprised
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that the Americans acted as they did. So much for that.
There is one other strain which has been put upon the relations of the alliance, and that has been the whole business of the Summit. I am passionately in favour of as much free movement as we can get between the peoples of the Communist countries and of the West. I believe that very often visits of statesmen can be very valuable. I am particularly keen on visits between Russians and Americans. I was delighted that Mr. Khrushchev went to America, and I am very sorry that President Eisenhower is not going to Russia. Nor would I dismiss the idea of Summit conferences. I am sure that they can do good if they are properly prepared.
I am sure that it is possible to get limited agreement at Summit conferences on practical matters. It may be possible to put the seal upon the work of diplomats and valuable to do so at such a conference. But what is no good is to suppose that simply by convening a conference without preparation we can do good. Supposing we put four statesmen in a conference at Paris and surround them with 3,000 journalists and supposing that they have no ideological differences but that the conference was not prepared and that they have no agenda, how can they come to agreement on complex problems?
It cannot be done. The difficulty is even greater when the Russians are attending, as they are divided from us by an ideological gulf. They use conferences not as places where one can get agreements, but as platforms from which they can make propaganda. The thing is not likely to work just by dumping people down.
But here in this country there was this tremendous urge for a conference. People thought that a conference was the universal solvent, egged on by the newspapers and by many politicians. If one said to one of them, "There has never been agreement on the Summit; what are they going to agree about?", one generally got a nasty look. It is not the sort of question that gentlemen ask.
The trouble here was that, though we had this exceedingly strong feeling, the feeling was not shared among our allies. I do not quite know why, but perhaps

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they remembered the past and they for-boded the future. They thought that this sort of thing would not work. The mischief was that the whole matter got caught up with politics. The Opposition said about a Summit, "We thought of it first. We do not think any preparation is necessary. We would push our allies around, and so on." It became a sort of race.
I hope that, as a result of the Summit and as the result of what the Leader of the Opposition said today, though there may be Summit Conferences in the future this sort of political Summit race will not take place again here, or at any rate, if that is too optimistic, that it will not take place round exactly the same course.
Does not all this difficulty about the Summit really spring from our taking too short a view and a misunderstanding of what is really going on? I believe "tension" to be one of the most dangerous "boss" words in use at the moment. We are constantly told that tension is increasing, that tension is decreasing or that tension suits the Russians, and therefore we must do what we can to lower it and so on. I think that we have had a good recent example of how little this sort of thing means.
After the Summit Meeting, Mr. Khrushchev at his Press conference in Paris used a form of words about keeping his ultimatum on Berlin in being, uttered much vulgar abuse, and also said that he would drop nuclear rockets on anyone who crossed his path. That was held to have increased tension. Then, when he got to Berlin, he used the same form of words about Berlin, used more vulgar abuse and said the same thing about dropping nuclear rockets on people. The second speech was held to decrease tension, but has anything really happened? I am sure nothing has.
Now for the argument about tension suiting the Russians, and therefore it being in our interest to reduce it: I suppose it is possibly true in a sense that tension does suit the Russians. It would be easier for them to hold down their own people and the satellite peoples if they could represent that they are threatened from abroad. It would have been harder to murder Nagy after a promise of safe conduct if the Russians
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had not told the Hungarian people that they were threatened with aggression from outside. I think it is true that it might suit their book, but let us look where this argument takes us.
I think we could all agree that the main source of tension during the last eighteen months has been the Berlin situation and the ultimatum accompanying it. If we say that tension suits the Russians and that therefore we must reduce it, the only way to reduce it would be to sell the West Berliners. If we had been willing to do that at the Summit Conference, I do not doubt that it would have taken place, and Mr. Khrushchev would have come, but would it have reduced tension by a day, a week, a month, perhaps a little more? There were five months between Munich and the rape of Prague, but, if tension suits the Russians, they can easily start it up somewhere else. There are plenty of other soft spots. It seems to me that the argument is too short-sighted. Surely, the point about the Russians is that they are Marxists and believe in their own stuff in the same way as Hitler believed in Mein Kampf.
Here, I should like to quote a few words in support of that view from what was said by Sir William Hayter, speaking on the wireless just after the break up of the Summit Conference. I hope some hon. Members listened to it. He was speaking after the nine o'clock news and had these words to say about the Summit:
"I must say I myself never thought that this or any other Summit Conference could possibly lead to the end of the cold war. I have thought, or at least I have hoped, that the Soviet Government might be prepared to negotiate limited practical agreements with the West, but it has always seemed to me that they have never regarded the Western Governments as the kind of people with whom a real settlement in a wider sense, a long-term settlement, a settlement of the world as a whole, the end of the cold war, could be negotiated. I have always thought that they look on us as unpleasant and probably transient obstacles in the path of their real aim, which is to spread what they regard as the proper way of ruling the world, of Communism generally. And if this is how they look at the world as a whole, then this breakdown in Paris is, so to speak, a tactical wobble and not a change in their long-term policy, which is to get us away, get us out of the way, sweep us away, remove these obstacles"
That is a statement which shows that Russian strategy has not changed though

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the tactics may change and often do. After saying that, Sir William Hayter went on to say something else—which I passionately believe—that this fixed policy of furthering Communism by all means at their disposal will never be pushed to the point at which they run the risk of a general war in which they themselves are involved. That has been the policy consistently pursued since the war, to spread the Communist faith and power by every possible means, short of a general war.
I wish to call one other witness from the academic shades—Professor Hugh Seton Watson, who is Professor of Russian History at London University, who wrote a book which I hope many hon. Members have read or will read, called "Neither War Nor Peace". He gives an analysis in great detail of Russian policy, in which he reached exactly the same conclusion as did Sir William Hayter, and, like him, does not believe that Stalin's death had caused any significant difference. It caused differences of tactics, but not in the ultimate aim. He deals with the situation at some length, and refers to those editors and politicians who say that there has been a change as being guilty of Utopian optimism.
There it is. The aim is fixed, but the tactics are subject to change, and that is what we can never predict. All this speculation about what goes on in the Kremlin seems to me to be beside the point. Nobody knows. Professional diplomats do not know and the experts of the Press are often far more wrong
than the rest of us. Nobody knows about the tactics, but we know what the strategy is. Further to that, these changes of tactics are often made for a purpose. Dr. William Sargeant's letter in The Times recently is, I am afraid, getting rather old-fashioned, but he took us back to the Russian use of Pavlov's idea. I do not think that this is new, for I believe that the same suggestion was put forward, for example, in Hitler's time; and he certainly used exactly the same technique for breaking down his enemy's morale. Pavlov's technique for breaking down a dog's resistance was to build up conditioned reflexes and then to give a contradictory stimulus. He rang a bell and gave the dog his dinner.
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After a bit the dog started salivating as soon as the bell was rung. When this reflex was built up the bell was rung but the dog was starved. Pavlov found that this technique produced hysteria and submissiveness in the dogs which were willing to collaborate.
It would be highly distressing and, indeed, inelegant to pursue this analogy any further, but it is perfectly true to say that there is a good deal of hysteria and submissiveness in the world at large, and no doubt a great deal of it has been caused by this technique of contradictory stimuli. I think that people are coming to realise that, and I therefore hope that the boss word "tension" will gradually go out of use, though it cannot go out at once, because we have all used it so often that it is spoken almost instinctively. I believe that the time will come when if a man uses the word "tension" in the old sense, it will be realised that, though a creature endowed by God with human reason and therefore realising that he is the subject of a controlled experiment, still his conditioned reflexes are so strong that he cannot help salivating when he hears Mr. Khrushchev ring the dinner bell. That may happen. I do not know. I say that because I feel passionately about it, and because I feel that much nonsense is talked. It leaves us with a situation which is full of anxiety, full of misery and sometimes almost full of despair.
The situation may, and I think will, alter one day but there is no sign that it is altering now or in the foreseeable future. The urge to escape and not to have this vast responsibility is understandable. I certainly feel it no less than do other people, and sometimes I murmur with the poet:
"Oh for a lodge in some vast wilderness,
Some boundless contiguity of shade,
Where rumour of oppression and deceit,
Of unsuccessful or successful war,
Might never reach me more."
That is a feeling which we all have, but it is no good for statesmen and politicians, for we are the Marthas of this world. We are elected to try to cope with situations, to fetch and to carry until we drop or are turned out. I therefore hope that we shall see the situation clearly, stand by our alliances and act with truth, with courage and with integrity.
5.11 p.m.
Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: May I begin by adding some comments to what was said by the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition about the method of the Summit Meeting? I think that every reasonable man must agree that there should be personal contacts, and not personal contacts only, but joint consultation with a sense of collective responsibility, among the Heads of Government who control the modern machinery of war.
But no one can claim that the present system of Summit Meetings has been a great success. In 1954, after the Bikini explosion of the 15 megaton thermonuclear device, this House unanimously adopted a Motion which called upon the Heads of the three nuclear Governments to meet without delay, to devise "positive policies" to strengthen the United Nations and to rid the world of the dangers which nuclear armaments involved. Fifteen months later, after a General Election, there was a Summit Meeting in Geneva. Its one result was to destroy the disarmament proposals of the Anglo-French Memorandum of 1954, which the Russians had gone some way towards accepting.
For three years, since 1957, public opinion has been demanding another Summit. After long delays, delays through which perhaps a golden opportunity was missed, a Summit was arranged, which ended with a grievous setback to all the causes which it was intended to promote. Two disastrous gatherings, at an interval of five years, is surely not an adequate arrangement for collective consultation among the men who carry such a dread burden of responsibility towards the nations of the world.
I want to push a little further what my right hon. Friend tentatively said about meetings in the United Nations. I believe, and have believed for years, that if the Heads of Government were to meet for, say, two or three weeks as delegates to the Assembly of the United Nations, and to do it regularly every year, they would find that nothing like the Paris fiasco could occur, and I believe that in practice they would find it to be the best spent fortnight in their year.
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Why did the Paris fiasco happen? Why did Mr. Khrushchev kill the Conference for which he had worked so long? I think that my right hon. Friend was right to discuss this, and I offer some further comments only because I think that what happened throws a light on the real nature of the world in which we live today, and on the dangers which our present policies involve.
I was in Chicago when the first news of the U2 spy flight was released, when the cover story of a "weather plane" was abandoned, and when Mr. Herter admitted that the flight was part of a systematic plan of aerial espionage. This came as a great shock to many Americans to whom I spoke, and very many said to me that, if the thing had been reversed, if a Russian spy plane had been shot down while doing air photography over the United States, the reaction of the American people would have been exactly what the reaction of the Russians had been. There would have been the same indignation and resentment and the same demand for reparation which the Russians made.
I want to pursue that line of thought, and to put the events of the succeeding week, as I followed them in the United States, into reverse. I ask the House to consider what the effect in the United States and on the British people would have been if the Russian Government had said and done what was said and done by the authorities of the United States. I start, as I said, from the hypothesis that a Russian spy plane had been shot down over America.
Reversing the rôles of the various characters, it would have been Mr. Gromyko who announced on Monday, 9th May, that the flight was indeed deliberate espionage, that the cover story was a fabrication and that such spy flights had previously happened and would still go on. On Wednesday morning, 11th May, President Eisenhower would have been asked by a journalist whether he would raise the spy flight at the Summit, and he would have answered, "No, why should I?" He would have said that probably Mr. Khrushchev knew nothing about it and in any case it had been sufficiently discussed all over the world.
That afternoon Mr. Khrushchev would have said in his Press conference that,

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of course, he had known about the flight; that it was part of a general system of gathering information by every means—a system which was essential to enable the Soviet Union and its Socialist allies to be ready to resist a sudden, unprovoked nuclear aggression by the capitalist States; that the Soviet people had had harsh experience of capitalist hostility in the past; and that, of course, the spy flights over the United States and other Western countries must go on.
If Mr. Khrushchev had made such a speech as that, I think that we should have felt, as I felt that day in Chicago, that the situation had taken a serious turn. But then imagine that on Friday, 13th May, a rumour came from Moscow that, after all, the spy flights would be stopped; that Mr. Khrushchev wanted to help the Summit Meeting to succeed and had decided to remove this cause of discord and misunderstanding. But then imagine that on the following day. Saturday, 14th May, the Kremlin had officially denied this rumour, and had declared that it was without foundation and that the spy flights would most certainly go on. Would not that have made President Eisenhower's position when he arived in Paris very difficult indeed?
And then imagine that on the following day, Sunday, 15th May, Marshal Malinowski, with Mr. Khrushchev's express approval, had "alerted" all the Russian forces by land and sea and air all over the world, in bases close to the United States—had alerted them for "combat readiness", with bombers in the air; and had done so on the very eve of the Summit Meeting with the declared intention of making the Americans understand how powerful and how well prepared for instantaneous action the Russian forces were.
That is an exact transposition of what actually occurred. I have made it only to try to show how things must have looked in Russian eyes. In his message of 17th May The Times special Paris correspondent vividly described how, in fact, the Russians' anger mounted, and how, if the Russian and American rôles had been reversed, as I have reversed them, President Eisenhower would never, in their belief, have sat down at the conference table.
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On the following Sunday Mr. Henry Brandon, who many of us know as a much-respected British correspondent in Washington, reviewed in his paper, the Sunday Times, the collapse of the Summit. While he vigorously condemned, as we all do, Mr. Khrushchev's disastrous lapses, he wrote the three following sentences:
"The United States … found itself assuming both an illegal and an immoral posture … The world was aghast at Eisenhower's ineptitude when he tried to make aerial espionage respectable. … Mr. Eisenhower snuffed out the spirit of Camp David"
I have not recalled this history to make a case for Khrushchev or against America. No one believes more ardently than I do that real British-American co-operation is essential to world peace. But these events and the discussions in the Security Council all last week have clearly shown us that, while the arms race goes on, we shall have espionage on all sides and by every means; and that, on that basis, relations of true confidence between the Governments simply cannot be built.
They have surely shown us that with universal espionage, with American "alerts" for "combat readiness", with brutal Russian threats to destroy bases in Turkey, Pakistan, Norway and elsewhere, from which spy flights may be made, we are living in a state of international anarchy in which the existence of great stocks of nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction is almost infinitely dangerous to us all.
There is one other deduction which I want to draw from the events in Paris. When he came back from Washington a few weeks before the Summit, the Foreign Secretary said that the first and most important item on the agenda would be disarmament. So did President de Gaulle, both to this Parliament and to the Parliament of Canada. So, at every stage, did Mr. Khrushchev. Last February the Foreign Secretary told us how much we owed to Mr. Khrushchev's work. We all remember that last year Mr. Khrushchev went straight from Washington to Peking to tell the Chinese that the Americans were not imperialists; in the winter he toured Asia saying that President Eisenhower was a man of peace; he never sought to exploit Cyprus or Hola against us, or Algeria against President de Gaulle.

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And for many months he has been saying that his supreme objective is disarmament.
In January, 1958, he told Mr. Iverach MacDonald, the foreign editor of The Times, that that was why he was pressing with such persistence for a Summit Meeting. He said the same thing to my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) and me in December of that year. Both before and after his proposals to the United Nations in September last, when he restated precisely the objective of general and complete disarmament which the Foreign Secretary had put forward the day before, he has been preaching the urgent necessity of disarmament wherever he went.
I think that it was no accident that in his regrettable Press conference two weeks ago in Paris the first point of substance which he made was this:
"Disarmament is a different matter from stopping tests. We are almost convinced that the Americans do not want disarmament, but control of armaments for espionage purposes. … The Geneva Conference"—
that is, the Committee of Ten Nations—
"is merely procrastinating."
The last thing he said before he left Berlin for home was that "it was more necessary than ever to achieve disarmament, which was the problem of all problems". He added that there was still a danger of war, and he was dissatisfied with the present state of the Geneva disarmament negotiations.
On Saturday last, in Moscow, he made his view still clearer when he said that he believed that President Eisenhower still wanted an international understanding but was being opposed by "American military circles".
Is it fantastic to think that, until he reached Paris, Mr. Khrushchev hoped that President Eisenhower would stick to the line of the Camp David communiqué, which declared that
"The question of general and complete disarmament is the most important which faces mankind today"
but that the President's sustained defence of the spy flights, his assertion that Russia might at any moment carry out an atomic Pearl Harbour against the U.S.A., and the "alert" for "combat readiness", convinced Mr. Khrushchev that the "military circles" were, in fact,
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on top and that that explained the slow progress being made in the Committee of Ten? If the "military circles" were on top, what hope could there be for any progress on disarmament in Paris?
Mr. Khrushchev spoke one other sentence in Berlin. Saying what I have no doubt is his genuine conviction, namely, that "disarmament is the problem of all problems", he went on:
"The Soviet Union will now work harder than ever to achieve it".
It may well be that the Committee of Ten is the first place where some of the damage done in Paris will be undone. Some of us have, through the courtesy of the Foreign Office, had the records of the Committee of Ten, and some of us have read them. Today is not the time to debate them, but I hope that we may do so soon after the Whitsuntide Recess.
But there are two points on which my right hon. Friend touched and to which I want to draw a little further attention before the Committee meets again next week. On 10th February the Foreign Secretary said that there should be "some action" in the first stage of a disarmament treaty. He said that the action should be
"reductions in armed forces and, what is more important, in the level of conventional armaments."—[OFFiciAL REPORT, 10th February. 1960; Vol. 616, c. 496.]
So far, I confess that I can find no proposals from the Western delegates for any such reduction in stage I. Indeed, even at stage II, the only proposal that meets the eye is that the forces of the major Powers should be reduced to 2·1 million men. I wonder if such a figure at the second stage would mean any real disarmament at all. But what most concerns me is that people who think they know allege that 2·1 million is the lowest figure that will be accepted in any measureable future, because it is the lowest figure with which the existing Western bases around the world can be held and manned.
I hope that there is no truth in that suggestion. I hope that when the Committee reassembles on 7th June the British delegate will put forward the proposal made for the First Stage Treaty in the Anglo-French Memorandum of 1954, the cealing of which may right hon. Friend spoke, namely, a ceiling for the major Powers of 1 or at most 1·5

1039
million men, with lower ceilings for other nations, and a corresponding cut in conventional arms.
If that was a sound proposal in 1954 and 1955, soon after Stalin's death, it must surely be a sound proposal today. I can think of nothing which would so much improve the military security of the Western nations as the reduction of Russian forces to a total of 1 million men.
The second point I want to urge on the Foreign Secretary for consideration before 7th June is that, when the Committee of Ten Nations reassembles, the British delegate should lend his full support to the proposal for total nuclear disarmament and the abolition of the means of delivery made on 15th March on behalf of General de Gaulle by M. Moch.
I remind the House of the authority with which M. Moch can speak. He has been the French delegate in all disarmament discussions for the last ten years. He is himself a scientist. He has had at his disposal the full resources of the French Atomic Energy Commission. As Minister of the Interior, he saved France from Communist subversion in 1948. As Minister of Defence, he was one of the architects of the N.A.T.O. Pact.
On 15th March M. Moch said this. I shall quote it at length so that his words may stand in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Having argued that we cannot hope to measure or detect the full amount of the past production of nuclear weapons, and that therefore the exact amount of existing stocks will never be known, M. Moch continued:
"There are, however, two ways in which our nuclear fears may be allayed. One is to tackle, while there is still time, the means of carrying these weapons—satellites, missiles, aircraft, aircraft carriers, submarines, launching ramps, etc. Once the vehicles have been banned and destroyed, the military stocks will appear worthless.
"There is another course open to us: to substitute, for stock-piling, the rapid supervised reduction of stocks, which means stopping production of fissionable materials for peaceful purposes"—
the "cut-off"—
"and re-converting them for peaceful pm-poses, on a large scale, and in accordance with an agreed timetable.
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"I should like to stress this point: a supervised undertaking to cease production for armaments"—
the "cut-off"—
"is, in our view, indissolubly linked with the rapid re-conversion—and not merely token reconversion—of existing stocks. The cessation of production, once in force, would only remain effective as long as this re-conversion was faithfully carried out; otherwise it would be mere deception.
"For we are aiming at nuclear disarmament of the whole world, not the sanctioning by devious means of the de facto position formerly attained by three powers, which has now been attained by a fourth, and will later, no doubt, be attained by others.
"Apart from these two courses, there can be no nuclear disarmament. And without nuclear disarmament, how can we propose conventional disarmament?"
I hope that hon. Members will reflect with care upon these pregnant words. Nuclear disarmament, the problem of the clandestine nuclear stock, is the very crux upon which all hope of progress turns. On 10th February the Foreign Secretary spoke some words which made us think that, in the Government's view, M. Moch had found the right solution. I hope that next week our delegate will go back to Geneva and will say this very loud and clear; I hope that he will give M. Moch the full and vigorous support which I believe the British nation would desire to give him.
In the United Nations Sub-Committee in 1957 the Western delegates sometimes seemed to act—indeed, they nearly always seemed to act—on the principle that no one of them could say anything to which all the others had not previously agreed. Such a principle is very dangerous. It comes close to the pernicious precept, "My ally, right or wrong." To act upon that precept is, as President Eisenhower declared in 1956, to undermine the whole foundation on which the Charter and the N.A.T.O. Pact are built.
I hope that when the Committee of Ten Nations reassembles the British delegate will follow M. Moch's example and will advocate these basic measures of disarmament without which no Treaty can be made. I hope that no one in the House will tell us that these measures are too ambitious, and that we must look for small and gradual steps spread over many years. We have been looking for small and gradual steps for many years already. Ten years ago there were no stocks of nuclear weapons.

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There were no supersonic bombers, no missiles of the kind we know today, no nuclear-powered submarines. For ten years the arms race has swept forward with the power and momentum of a Pacific Ocean tidal wave. It is still sweeping forward.
Everyone agrees that these developments must some day be stopped and that we must have real disarmament if mankind is to survive the decades which he ahead. But if they are ever to be stopped, then surely every hour's delay is a needless hour of waste and danger. If they are ever to be stopped, in the name of common sense let us stop them now.
5.35 p.m.
Colonel Tufton Beamish: Nobody who speaks in this debate would want to under-emphasise the possible seriousness of the breakdown of the Summit Meeting. On the other hand, it is very important that we should not exaggerate its seriousness. I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister tell the House, as we knew that he would, that he will take every possible opportunity of renewing negotiations and seeking out the common ground which there may be with the Soviet Union.
I admit that I never had high hopes of the Summit Meeting. I have just as much distaste for catch phrases as my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) has for "boss words". All too often have I heard the phrase, "We must meet the Soviet Union halfway". When I hear that phrase I often ask what important concessions the free countries can make and what important concessions we expect the Soviet Union to make. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West said, one very seldom receives any answers to those questions.
I agree with the Prime Minister that too much speculation about the reasons for the breakdown of the Summit Meeting leads us nowhere. I was sorry that the Leader of the Opposition spent nearly half an hour on such idle speculation. But one thing I am quite sure about is that the reason for the breakdown was not the U2 incident. Everybody knows that the Soviet Union has the most efficient and far-reaching spy system in the world. Mr. Khrushchev's
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only really honest reply to the U2 incident is, "Me too". Spying is simply a side-effect of world unrest. It is a symptom, not a cause. I think that we can all agree about that
Mr. Khrushchev knows as well as we all know that the free countries have no aggressive intentions whatsoever against the Soviet Union. That has been underlined by the fact that he himself spoke of the "spirit of Camp David" with the knowledge, apparently, that there had been more than 30 U2 flights during the last two or three years without any public protest and without any incident, so far as we know. Yet he was able to speak with that knowledge of the "spirit of Camp David".
I think that the U2 flights have provided valuable intelligence and been a valuable insurance against the faint possibility of a surprise attack. Thank Heavens, it is only a faint possibility. Therefore, I congratulate the Americans on having undertaken these flights. Had I been in President Eisenhower's shoes for the last two or three years I should without hesitation have authorised them.
Mr. S. Silverman: Would the hon. Member have stopped them when President Eisenhower did?
Colonel Beamish: Yes, I certainly would have.
Mr. Silverman: Why?
Colonel Beamish: Simply because I would have leant over backwards, as President Eisenhower was doing, to try to reach the best possible agreement with the Soviet Union.
Mr. Silverman: Why congratulate him on doing the opposite?
Colonel Beamish: The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) is very good at interrupting from a sitting position. If he has an intelligent intervention to make, perhaps he would like to make it on his feet.
Mr. Emrys Hughes rose— —
Colonel Beamish: I shall not give way. It is worth remembering that Mr. Khrushchev's Paris tirade was made with the knowledge that orders had already been given for the flights to be stopped.

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That is probably the answer to the hon. Gentleman's question. The U2 incident must, therefore, be dismissed simply as a smokescreen behind which Mr. Khrushchev hid his real reasons.
I see no need whatsoever to despair simply because of this unhappy breakdown. We must press forward with constructive, forward-looking, positive policies, many of which have already been developed but some of which need fresh thinking. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West that nothing has really changed. The driving force of international Communism is still a belief that its victory over all other systems is inevitable. We can all agree about that. There are no real differences between the two sides of the House on that. The Leader of the Opposition and the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) have certainly never had any illusions about it. Between the two sides of the House there are, of course, differences of emphasis and differences as to the methods that we would like to see adopted, but I do not think that those differences are very great.
We are all determined to do everything we can to establish a lasting and honourable peace in the world, a world in which, we hope, all formerly independent countries that wish to achieve their independence again can do so, and can keep it. We surely want a world in which the great Powers and the small nations respect their international obligations and honour their pledged words. Unhappily, in such a world there will still be too much room for home-produced dictators, large and small right-wing and left-wing, but dictatorship in such a world would not be for export. I think that we can all agree on that as well.
Meanwhile the struggle goes on with undiminished vigour. The struggle is ideological, cultural, economic, scientific, political, and occasionally, unhappily, military. Whether one calls the struggle peaceful coexistence or the cold war, it may go on for months or for years. It may go on for a decade or two—I do not know. I suppose that it will go on, at any rate, until there are some major changes in the Soviet Union. I have no fears whatsoever of the outcome of the
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struggle so long as we and our allies continue to co-operate ever more closely, and recognise with perfect clarity exactly what we are up against.
I am optimistic because international Communism has many weaknesses which too few people recognise. If I may, I will enumerate a few of them. First, let us remember that every Communist Government today was elected by force or fraud, or by both. Let us remember that with the one exception that proves the rule—Kerala—no Communist Government, once elected, has ever lost power. That inevitably means that Communist Governments build up a silent—perhaps I should say a silenced—opposition.
What greater condemnation could there be of the Communist system than the flow of refugees from the countries that are Communist-governed? Incidentally, tomorrow we come to the end of the World Refugee Year, and I very much hope that when it ends Her Majesty's Government will at least double the contribution they are making as a token of their enormous appreciation of the magnificent effort made. I hope that we may hear that.
As I was saying, the flow of refugees has always been from the Communist to the free countries. How many people, without a background of spying, have left the free countries to enjoy the pleasures of Communism? I fancy that I could count them on the fingers of two hands.
A second weakness is the failure of the Soviet Union to seize power in other countries by direct military action. I think of Malaya, of Burma, and of the Philippines—to mention three. In Malaya, more than 12,00 terrorists have been killed or captured during the campaign against them. They have failed. That has been a definite failure on the part of the Soviet Union—a definite weakness.
A third weakness is that the Soviet Union have failed to extend their frontiers—
Mr. Harold Davies: Will the hon. and gallant Member give way?
Colonel Beamish: I suppose so, yes.
Mr. Davies: I am grateful for that supercilious giving way, but with all his

1045
superciliousness, I would tell the hon. and gallant Gentleman that, if he knows anything at all about Malaya, he knows that the situation there had nothing to do with the Soviet Union as such. Many of us were there at the time, and know that many of those so-called terrorists gave their lives fighting the Japanese, and were directed by British officers. It is a slur to say that many of these people who gave their lives were intimidated by the Soviet Union. They were not in it at all, and any historian knows that that is true.
Colonel Beamish: Perhaps I am not such a good historian as the hon. Gentleman, but it might interest him to know that I happen to have been one of the officers in Singapore who handed arms to some of these very men at that time, but what the hon. Gentleman has forgotten is that Russia was then our ally. It is also perfectly true that those weapons were later used to try to destroy the British administration in Malaya, and later the independent Malayan administration.
Mr. Davies: The hon. and gallant Gentleman was the very gallant gentleman who was there.
Colonel Beamish: I am most grateful for a helpful question.
The third weakness has been the failure of the Soviet Union to extend the frontiers of international Communism. Of course, there have been exceptions on the fringe countries around China, and the Russians have gained powerful influence in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and several other countries as well, but have not got actual control of any. One-third of the world's population lives today in what Mao Tse-tung calls the "Socialist Camp", but freedom's frontiers have been broadly held since the fall of Czechoslovakia.
Next, I draw the attention of the House to the total failure of the Communists to indoctrinate young people. Who was it who tore at Russian tanks with their bare hands in Budapest? They were boys and girls of 16, 17, 18 years of age—kids who had known nothing but Communism since the day they went to kindergarten. The failure of the Communists to indoctrinate youth in spite of the use of every technique on which they could lay their hands is truly a terrific failure.
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Again, they know that they have failed to undermine religious faith. Even in the Soviet Union itself, the authorities dare not make a real frontal attack on the Orthodox religion. When about five years ago the B.B.C. tried broadcasting Orthodox religious services in the Russian programme—a broadcast of just half an hour—it was immediately met with the full force of Russian jamming. Nevertheless, there has been no frontal attack on religion in the Soviet Union. The Russians know that whether people are Mohammedans, Buddhists, Jews, Christians or Hindus, they believe in something utterly opposed to Communism, and oppose it with enormous strength and faith.
Lastly, the rulers in the Soviet Union have a great fear of the truth. They dare not allow their people to hear both sides of all questions. The fresh wind of freedom is at present only a gentle zephyr in the Soviet Union, but it is at least refreshing for Soviet citizens to be able to hear both sides of many questions today, whereas in the past they could hear only one side. It may well be that Mr. Khrushchev has started something that he dare not, or cannot, stop. The Soviet leaders, for the first time in my opinion, have got to take some account, at any rate, of the Soviet people.
There, then, are half a dozen of the basic weaknesses of international Communism, and they are matters which we should consider carefully in deciding what British policy should be. I do not want simply to try to analyse the weaknesses of Communism without saying something about future policy. In fact, I have too little time to develop it at any length, but I should like for five minutes to touch on a few of the most important aspects of our policy as I see it.
First, there is a very important and unanswerable case for paying far greater attention in future than we have in the past to providing economic and technical aid to Africa, Asia and Latin-America. Those are three continents in which we must expect growing attempts on the part of the Soviet Union and China to undermine our efforts to encourage and help stable political regimes and steady economic and social progress. There is already much evidence of Sino-Soviet interest in those

1047
three continents. But it is also interesting to note that persistent Communist attempts to dominate Afro-Asian institutions and conferences have led to growing resistance, most recently from Indonesia—perhaps one of the countries from which one would least expect it.
It is also interesting to note, when looking at this important question, that Soviet and Chinese aid and trade provide a surprisingly small amount of the total trade of the under-developed countries. In fact, a mere 5 per cent. of the total imports of the underdeveloped countries in the world come from the Sino-Soviet bloc, an extraordinarily small figure. In addition, the aid and trade are selective as regards both the countries receiving them and the projects which are involved. We can expect more of that sort of thing.
Secondly, we should recognise that on the successful and happy solution of the multi-racial problems facing us an enormous amount depends. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister mentioned that at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference there was discussion of the opposition to Communism as such. He told us that in his speech today. There is a very close connection between a successful solution of the multi-racial problem and our opposition to Communism. That is why most of us in the House, with perhaps no exception, are so resentful of the South African Government's policy, partly because we think it is plain crazy for the South African Government to suppose that through an apartheid policy they are doing anything to oppose Communism, which is one of their arguments for it. There are many other reasons for our resentment, of course—in fact better ones than that.
Mr. Wedgwood Benn: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggesting that the only reason for doing the right thing is to oppose Communism? Is he suggesting that there is no intrinsic evil in apartheid?
Colonel Beamish: Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman began to interrupt me before I started my last sentence. It answers his question. I think apartheid is unchristian, unworkable and wicked. I was coming on to that.
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I am drawing attention to this because in the British Commonwealth out of every eight people seven have dark skins and one has white skin, and soon it will be eight to one.
Mr. Harold Davies: We should recognise this fact if we are to live together.
Colonel Beamish: I am glad to have the agreement of the hon. Gentleman. Therefore, we cannot exist unless we can solve these multi-racial problems. We can expect the Soviet Union and China to make the most of our difficulties. That is why there is a connection between these two matters.
We must obviously continue to improve our defence policy. We must try to strengthen N.A.T.O. in every way, both politically and militarily. I believe that an independent British deterrent is most important, and I do not think—I am glad the Prime Minister said this—that a N.A.T.O. deterrent can possibly be a substitute.
Fourthly, we must obviously get closer to Europe, and when I say "Europe" I mean the whole of Europe. The Foreign Secretary made that point when he spoke in the first foreign affairs debate after the General Election. He said that when he referred to Europe he was speaking of the whole of it. I believe my right hon. and learned Friend was the author of the phrase "the grand design", by which he meant that there was such a plethora of different organisations, such as O.E.E.C., Euratom, the Six, the Seven, N.A.T.O., the Schuman Plan and goodness knows what else, that very few people could understand them all, and there is a pretty clear case for trying to get the other countries to agree to simplify the whole thing under this grand design. The door seems to be open for that action, and I hope that we shall hear more about it.
Next we can still improve allied propaganda. A good deal has been done in this respect, and we are spending a certain amount more than we were, but I am sure that very good use indeed could be made of more money if it were made available. The basic theme of propaganda must be that we wish well to the Chinese and Soviet people, that we want to live peacefully side by side with them as they raise their standards

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of living, but that we are inflexibly opposed to the export of Communism.
Lastly, as the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker) said, we must press on relentlessly and tirelessly with our efforts to achieve disarmament. The Government have been quite tireless in their efforts in this direction, and I was surprised to hear the Leader of the Opposition say that he thought the first target for the reduction of conventional forces in the Soviet Union and the United States should be 1½ million and not 2½ million. I understand that the forces of the Soviet Union are only just under 3½ million at the present moment. I should have thought that it would be a good first step to obtain a reduction to 2½ million.
We have been leaning over backwards to get agreement, and we have always adhered to two golden rules from which we dare not depart; first, that nuclear and conventional disarmament must march in step together so that at all stages any disarmament plan is fair to both sides; and secondly, that any disarmament that we can achieve must be under strict and reliable watertight international control and inspection.
I think that is a good chance of a bipartisan policy towards disarmament, now that the Leader of the Opposition has made it clear that the non-nuclear club has been thrown overboard when he used the words today, "The West must have nuclear weapons so long as Russia has them." I believe there is a wide measure of agreement between both sides of the House on this very important subject.
I wish to sum up briefly. I see no need whatsoever to be unduly worried about the breakdown of the Summit, disappointing though it was. Still less do I see any need to be pessimistic. We are far stronger than many people think, and the Communist system has many weaknesses of which we often do not bake full advantage. As well as stressing these points, I have stressed the great value of a bipartisan approach to foreign affairs and defence matters. I think I can truthfully say that between the official policy of the Opposition and the policy of the Government there is a great deal of common ground.
To sum the matter up more briefly still, I think I can best illustrate what
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I have been saying by recounting a conversation I had with a friend of mine, a senior member of the Soviet Embassy staff, when we lunched together recently. He gave me a very excellent lunch and a very good bottle of wine, for both of which he very kindly paid. At the end of lunch, he said to me, "I have always had dinned into me since I could first understand what people were saying that capitalism would wither away. The trouble is that it is not withering away fast enough". In my opinion, the real trouble, from the point of view of Moscow and Peking, is that it is not withering away at all.
6.0 p.m.
Mr. Christopher Mayhew: The hon. and gallant Member for Lewes (Colonel Beamish) set out several reasons for viewing the international scene optimistically. He thought along these lines, I think, that whereas the conflict between the Communist and the non-Communist world continued and the aims of the Soviet Union remained unchanged, there were weaknesses in the Russian position which we had not appreciated well enough hitherto. I, too, am an optimist, but I have a different approach and different reasons for feeling optimistic.
In my view, it is not so much that one side in the cold war has weakened compared with the other as that the amount of conflict and tension between the two sides has diminished during the last five or ten years. In my view, that is a much healthier development and a much greater cause for rejoicing than several of the reasons for optimism offered by the hon. and gallant Gentleman. Nevertheless, the fact that he was optimistic earns forgiveness for a multitude of sins.
In foreign affairs, optimism is not merely something which springs from a set of circumstances; it is something which itself helps to change circumstances in a desired direction. It is certainly true that suspicion and fear often tend to creat the very things which are feared and suspected; so any error, if there has to be one, should be on the side of confidence. Indeed, it can be set as a fair criticism against some movements, such as the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, that they constantly highlight the frightening and negative aspects of the world situation

1051
and do not sufficiently point out the encouraging and positive trends which are present at the same time.
It is a fact, after all, that the American and Russian leaders passionately want to avoid nuclear war, even though they may sometimes give the very opposite impression. I think it might be better if the Aldermaston marchers spent a little time pointing out to the Russians the true fact that the American leaders do, basically, want peace and to the American leaders the true fact that the Russian leaders do genuinely want peace, instead of stirring up the rather frenzied and hysterical atmosphere of nuclear crisis. Although it is true that the horror of nuclear war cannot be exaggerated, the likelihood of its taking place can be exaggerated, and it is very harmful to do so.
When I look back over the past five or ten years, I feel a sense of relief. I remember discussing with a senior Soviet Minister quite recently in a private conversation what was the worst point in East-West relations at the height of the cold war. He agreed without any argument that the very lowest point, the most dangerous point in the cold war, was the precise moment in 1948 during the Berlin blockade when a British airliner crashed as a result of being buzzed by a Soviet fighter. I recall the very great anxiety in the Foreign Office at that time about the immediacy of war and the great difficulty of calculating what the Russians intended at that time. Today, war seems even more horrible to contemplate than it was then, but it seems a great deal less likely.
We have new problems like the spread of nuclear weapons, to which my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition referred, but there are many problems which seemed insoluble and critical then of which we do not hear any more now. I think of the problem of Austria, the problem of Greece, the problem of Trieste, the problem of the Straits, the problem of Yugoslavia and the treaties with Eastern Europe—things which worried the Foreign Office in the late 1940s. Where are they now? On an occasion like this, at a critical moment after the collapse of the Summit Conference, we do well sometimes to count our blessings and see where the favourable trends are.
Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke: The hon. Gentleman said that war today seemed more horrible but less likely than ten years ago. Is it not possible that it is less likely because it is more horrible?
Mr. Mayhew: That is a very controversial point. I think that there is much in what the hon. and learned Gentleman says, but if one were to proceed from that assumption to attempt to pile up more and more horrible weapons on both sides, I should not go so far as to accept that.
Another point on which we should reflect at this stage is that, politically and ideologically—here I quarrel with the hon. and gallant Member for Lewes —the Soviet Union is a good deal less expansionist than it was ten years ago. The hon. and gallant Gentleman said, rightly, I think, that he was speaking for bath sides of the House in saying that he believed that the ultimate aim of the Communists was to see a Communist world. I do not question that at all. But what a crude and generalised form in which to put the statement. We take that for granted. What we are interested in is considering at what speed and by exactly what methods the Communists are approaching their goal. That is the point.
When we compare what the Communists say and feel now with what they said and felt in the late 1940s, we see that the whole time schedule by which the Communist millenium is to come has been vastly extended into the future. A long time ago, in 1917 and 1918, Lenin and the early Bolsheviks thought that world revolution was coming in 1919, 1920 and 1921. They were right about Germany and Hungary, where, for a time, there were Communist revolutions; but bit by bit the Communist millenium has moved further and further away. Now, Mr. Khrushchev speaks about the grandchildren of Americans being Communists. Among the Russians today, the Communist millenium is even more vaguely in the future. Side by side with this postponement of the millenium, there has been a great improvement in the methods which the Communists regard as acceptable in reaching the millenium. This, too, is an extremely important matter. The old Comintern days were quite different from the state of relationships between East and West today.

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Also, there is a long-term factor to which I should draw attention, the removal of a great deal of the isolationism of the Soviet Union during the past five or ten years. We have heard a great deal about Mr. Khrushchev's Press conference in Paris. It was a deplorable incident in every sense, except perhaps in this, that we should not think that because we did not hear so much about and from Stalin, that he was any less bitter or hostile in his attitude to the West, nor should we think that it would have been better for Mr. Khrushchev, like Stalin, to nurse and brood over his grievances behind the Iron Curtain rather than come Westwards and argue them with full publicity before Western public opinion. That is a new feature which we should note.
I remember how difficult it was during the cold war even to talk to a Soviet diplomat. As a delegate to the United Nations in 1948, I set out as a matter of policy to try to arrange for my opposite number, the head of the Soviet delegation, to have lunch with me alone before the conference ended. My success in this enterprise was regarded as an unprecedented diplomatic success. Of course, all that is totally changed. Although much of the Iron Curtain is left—I need not spell it out, since hon. Members know about it and have referred to it—a great deal has gone and concrete results have been achieved.
Let us consider some of the changes in basic Soviet opinion which have taken place in recent years. The Russians accept today, for example, the higher standard of living of British and American workers. This was not always the case. They accept that Western democracy, or capitalism as they call it, has a much longer life and is far more stable than they conceived at the end of the war, let alone before it. They concede that the elected leaders of the Western Powers are men of peace. Mr. Khrushchev repeated that only yesterday—that President Eisenhower was a man of peace. This would have been a heresy for which they would have been sent to prison, or worse, before the war, and it is a profoundly important and encouraging change. They proclaim, without always carrying out, the principles of co-existence. They do not live up to the principles of co-existence as we would regard them, but at least they got rid of the Comintern and the
1054
Cominform. Symbolically, if one listens to Radio Moscow it does not begin nowadays with the "Internationale".
Although this is all in Lenin's texts, Lenin wrote and spoke so much that one can pick out any text from what he wrote. The truth is that this policy of co-existence, which is now part and parcel of Russian thinking and propaganda, is profoundly anti-Marxist. The very basis of Marxism or dialectical materialism is the denial of the possibility of the co-existence of opposites. The assertion of conflict and the assertion of crisis is basic to Marxism, and this new emphasis on co-existence is profoundly different.
Can it be reversed? Some will say that these changes in opinion are on the surface and can be reversed. As someone who has met a lot of Soviet people—students and intelligentsia, in particular—I am convinced that when they talk about co-existence, certainly the young people, they are not making propaganda at all. Although they expect capitalism in America to fail, if one suggests to them that they will encourage or provoke it to fail, let alone that they want it to fail, the average young Soviet student will think that one has said something offensive, as though he was being told that he was in favour of war.
There is a kind of moral basis in the young Soviet person's attitude to co-existence which I believe any future Russian Government will find extremely difficult to reverse. This is profoundly important. Similarly, over the years the Western view of the Soviet Union has become more realistic. Five or ten years ago we did not really appreciate the strides which the Soviet Union had made in science and education, let alone in sport. I think that the Soviet attitude to Germany is far better understood than it was five years ago, and also the limit that they undoubtedly set to their political aggressiveness and imperialism.
I want to ask the Government whether they cannot somehow, at this stage which we have reached as a result of the breakdown of the Summit Conference, give some new impetus to these positive and encouraging trends over the last five or ten years. I have always felt that, whereas we must work for disarmament at these conferences, it

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was a great deal to expect successful disarmament agreements in the political conditions which exist between East and West today. I have always felt it a little hopeful to expect to get open skies before open doors. I therefore wonder whether the Government can take some new impetus in this direction.
Cannot we—I believe that there was talk of this on the Western side before the Conference—gradually evolve some kind of code of co-existence? The U2 is a very good example of an action that is definitely incompatible with the behaviour between two great Powers in a state of co-existence. Equally, I am not sure about the microphone at the back of the chair of the American Ambassador in the American Embassy in Moscow. I am not sure that espionage questions are suitable for the kind of discussions that I have in mind, but at least they bring out my point, which is that it is worth making clearer what actions are and are not permissible to great powers according to the principles of co-existence.
Take non-interference in the internal political affairs of a country. The old Comintern and Cominform idea is off, but are we agreed that no form of international political organisation is acceptable? I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) is present. I recall very well when I was at the Foreign Office in the 'forties being visited by the Italian Ambassador, who, in sad tones, pointed out that whereas the Foreign Secretary, Mr. Ernest Bevin, was negotiating with the de Gasperi Government in connection with the formation and development of Western Europe, my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East, as Secretary of the International Department of the Labour Party, was negotiating with the Italian Socialist Party to bring down the de Gasperi Government. I had to explain to the Italian Government that what Mr. Bevin did as Foreign Secretary and what my hon. Friend did as Secretary of the International Department of the Labour Party were two totally different things.
This question of the international organisation of political parties, not only conspiratorial parties like the Communists, but non-conspiratorial parties
1056
like the Socialist and other parties, might profitably be discussed between the powers. As has been said, the Russians still intervene politically in the internal affairs of Western countries. They have got rid of the Cominform but still back old Stalinist front organisations, such as the World Peace Council, the World Federation of Democratic Youth, the British-Soviet Friendship Society and the Society for Cultural Relations. They are a relic of the cold war. They are declining in influence, but they still have the power to irritate and to cause misunderstanding between the Western nations and the Soviet Union.
The worst feature of these old Stalinist front organisations is not so much that they are a weapon of Soviet political imperialism or anything like that. The worst feature is that this brings the Russians into contact with Westerners who, because they are Communists and fellow-travellers, confirm all the Russian misconceptions about opinion in the Western countries. This is a very interesting matter which I have studied a great deal. Organisations like the British Youth Festival Committee or the British-Soviet Friendship Society are of no importance politically in this country, but the people in them believe sincerely that the Americans are not to be trusted, that the North Atlantic Treaty is aggressive, that colonialism is just exploitation and that Western democracy is a sham. As they meet these Russians the impact is to confirm the Russians in precisely those misconceptions which are so dangerous to good will and understanding between East and West.
I therefore say that in any conference about co-existence—I hope that we shall work for something of this kind—we might lay down some such principle as that contacts between Communist and non-Communist countries, where they have to be organised at all, should be organised by bodies which are representative of both countries, which means, in practice, between Communist organisations in Communist countries and non-Communist organisations in non-Communist countries, and not between Communists in Russia and Communists in Britain or in France. This is a profoundly important principle if those contacts are to do good and not cause harm to relationships between the two sides.

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My hope is that the Government will maximise contacts of this kind, paying particular attention to the new youth organisations and new youth and student contacts which are being built up, and take a positive attitude to these conceptions of world youth festivals. Whereas we do not want world youth festivals if they are organised, as they have been so far, on the principle of being organised between Communists in Communist countries and Communists in Western countries, it would be a great mistake to rule them out when they can be organised on a proper representative, genuinely non-political basis between the countries of West and East. I hope that the Government will have a look at that point
Finally, at a meeting on co-existence it would be interesting perhaps to compare notes as to what is and is not permissible in the way of propaganda between East and West. Here again is a great field for misunderstanding. Some of it is due to genuine lack of discussion and lack of clarification of minds on both sides. What is and what is not permissible in broadcasting and publishing by way of propaganda between the two sides? Obviously, a country is entitled to publicise itself and to make clear its views on foreign policy, but to what extent should Russian-produced propaganda circulated or sold in Britain attack British political figures or British political parties? To what extent should the B.B.C. not only explain to the Russians about Britain, not only explain British foreign policy to the Russians, but be critical of the internal arrangements in the Soviet Union? It would be well worth having frank and open discussions with the Russians to clear up misunderstandings of this kind.
I have said some of the reasons why I feel that there is solid ground for optimism concerning relations between the Western countries and the Soviet Union in spite of the collapse of Summit talks. Whereas on the surface things have gone wrong, these fundamental changes have been taking place slowly, almost imperceptibly, over the past five or ten years. I believe that they can be speeded up and that they are hopeful for the future.
I should like to say a word about China. If it is possible to be optimistic
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about the Soviet Union, it is utterly impossible to have the slightest optimism about China and her relations with the Western countries. The first time I visited the Soviet Union was in 1936. I visited China in 1957. The resemblances politically and ideologically between Russia in 1936 and China in 1957 were profoundly disturbing and worrying. One saw the same utter isolation from the West, the same refusal of Chinese people to speak to one, as the Russians had refused in 1936. There was the appalling ignorance and the appalling dogmatism about the West based on no real knowledge or contact.
I ask the Government, therefore, whether there is nothing we can do to diminish this isolation of China from the community of nations. Obviously, the big point is that she must at the earliest possible time be brought into the United Nations. American policy in this respect is indefensible. I hope the Government will take a strong independent line to prevent not only the ignorance and the isolation that results from not having China at the United Nations, but to avoid inevitably the growth of justified resentment and hostility on the part of China that she is excluded in this way.
I hope also, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said, that the Government will urge China's entry into the disarmament discussions, together with India. That is something which should be done. At a smaller but nevertheless practical level, have we sounded the Chinese Government about the possibilities of increasing cultural and trade contacts, as we have done over the years with the Soviet Union? Admittedly, the climate may not be very good, but if the British cannot make this kind of initiative, certainly the Americans and the Indians cannot. There is no other country that can do it.
I therefore suggest to the Government that on the same pattern of agreement as we got with the Soviet Union—the cultural agreement made by Britain with the Soviet Union was the first East-West cultural agreement of any kind, and it was done on a British initiative—we might consider trying to do the same thing with the Chinese. It might be expensive in view of the distance, but travel nowadays is quick. The Chinese might well respond to an initiative of

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that kind. There are many British citizens with a good knowledge of China who are sympathetic and friendly disposed and who would be willing to take part in an initiative of this kind.
We have a tremendous problem with the Chinese, but looking over the experience of the last ten or twenty years with the attitude of the Soviet Union to the West and the remarkable developments and improvements that have taken place, I suggest that if we take a positive and constructive attitude towards the Chinese now, we might in due course slowly achieve the same good results.
6.25 p.m.
Mr. Peter Rawlinson: The hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) speaks with such authority and so persuasively that for a time he relieved my gloom, because, unlike my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Colonel Beamish), I confess to a greater degree of pessimism. When the hon. Member for Woolwich, East and other hon. Members were speaking, I could not help recalling how, twenty-two years ago, I was sitting in the Gallery and listening to similar kinds of speeches, usually from this side of the House, but using different phrases about different countries, different dictators and different weapons.
The hon. Member for Woolwich, East said that pessimism created suspicion and that suspicion and fear then created a crisis. That may be so, but peace is too precious to look at it as though it is something so desirable that we must look only through rose-tinted glasses, as we in this country have all too often been guilty of doing in the past. For it is just at the present time that we have been singularly reminded of the kind of speeches that were made in 1938. In the days of Adolf Hitler, the vilifying and sneering at the Heads of other Governments was all too common.
I was glad that the Leader of the Opposition pointed out the great distaste that is felt in this country when one Head of a Government attacks another Head of State in the terms in which Mr. Khrushchev attacked President Eisenhower. We cannot ignore the general revulsion at this personal abuse by a Head of Government at a time when the whole balance and peace of the world depends upon the good nerves and the
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good sense of the men who are ultimately responsible.
The British people have not been impressed by the foolery at drinking parties, by the swaggering tours and by the hearty familiarity, including those proverbs and stories from the steppes which have been larded about all over the world. They are not impressed, because we have had similar experience of it before. Now, we have had this recent, personal attack. I cannot think why it should have been necessary, unless it can be explained by the old adage that anybody who has a bad case should belabour the other party's attorney. It may be that there is not a bad case. Why, therefore, use the personal abuse which Mr. Khrushchev did only two days ago? He said that apparently Government and the administration of the country was merely the President's subsidiary task; that the President did not know about the spy plane, and thereby revealed his incompetence. But putting his hand on his heart, Mr. Khrushchev said that he was quite clear in conscience concerning any matter of espionage. If that is so, it reveals either his own incompetence and inefficiency, or more certainly, his brazen hypocrisy and cant.
What was the point of making this particular speech at this time? Unlike some hon. Members, I do think it important to try to discover what we think are the reasons why Mr. Khrushchev made that speech. Does he seriously believe that it will have any effect on the United States elections? In a democratic country, the usual effect when one Head of Government attacks another and offers, or proffers, by innuendo or direct, advice how an election should go and who should be the next President, is to stiffen the resentment of, in this case, the United States elector at such interference. Its second likely effect is to increase the difficulties of any future President, from whichever party he comes, in meeting the Head of the Soviet Government. Ultimately, in the last resort, it might well assist the candidature of the present Vice-President.
Is Mr. Khrushchev, therefore, ill-informed? There is a great gulf which still lies between the East and the West, despite the visits of the statesmen, despite the tours of the ballet companies, and the productions of Shakespeare in Moscow.

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There is still a tremendous gulf in the minds of men who come from the East and from the West. The greatest danger lies in the lack of sensible and intelligent knowledge of other countries, which may lead to dangerous miscalculation and misinterpretation.
I believe that the flight by the American reconnaissance aircraft over the Soviet Union was assessed in Russia as being of such importance as radically to alter, at least for a time, the policies of the Soviet Union. I believe that the new infra-red techniques upon which rocketry so very much depends, which involves the mapping with accuracy of a target, was, in the assessment of the Soviet Army at this time, a real threat. They then learned, or perhaps partially learned, how far this reconnaissance by aircraft had gone and the effectiveness of the pinpointing of the various targets. I believe that there was, then, a particular dispute, or disagreement, just before the Summit between the Defence Ministers and Mr. Mikoyan and others, and it is not without significance that Mr. Mikoyan will be absent from the visit to Austria which the Soviet leaders are about to make.
Another reason for his speech at this time was, obviously, not to influence the West by pointing out the mistakes of the Americans but to play up to his audience which exists in his own country, in the same way that responsible Ministers in this country are ultimately dependent on opinion. It is, of course, true that Mr. Khrushchev is dependent on the opinion of a much smaller group than is the Prime Minister or the Leader of the Opposition.
He must know surely that the effect of that speech would be and will be to make a Summit less likely and longer postponed. I have always presumed that the object of the Summit Meetings was to make a meeting together of those ultimately responsible and who have the power to make decisions, to negotiate when they meet, to limit and define principally that grey area of uncertainty between peoples and Governments which has so often in the past caused miscalculation and led to conflict, and then to enter into agreements concerning the various problems that exist. Such meetings can be effective only if those representatives have the power and the will. If there is no power and no will, the
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Summit can obviously destroy much more than it can create.
In 1959 much apprehension was felt in the United States, and certainly in Europe, that either the West at a Summit would be manoeuvred into a position of disadvantage or that this would be only an exercise in propaganda. I believe that the Prime Minister's policy in 1959 was right. I think that it was right then in that context and those circumstances. There was, of course, the genuine demand of public opinion, believing that the essential thing was to get men round the table to discuss in the hope that they would agree. I do not think that that by itself, however, should be the supreme consideration. But above all, I think that it was right because it was the only real test of sincerity to see whether there could be a Summit and to see whether, if in perhaps only a small, partial area, agreement somehow might come.
Now, in 1960, that policy in effect lies in ruins. Even if Mr. Khrushchev genuinely believed or gained the impression at Camp David that there were good chances of compromise—as, it is said, Sir Anthony Eden after conversations with President Eisenhower thought that there were good chances of a common policy for the Middle East—nevertheless we know perfectly well that, even if he felt that he had been let down and that thereafter there had been a departure OT change, nevertheless if he had wanted to impress the West, we know perfectly well what he could have done. It certainly was not to act as he did with regard to the U.2.
I do not believe that another Summit should be the immediate object of our diplomacy. By "immediate", I speak in terms of six, eight or ten months. I think that a great deal of time should pass to see exactly what progress is being made by those who have been more successful in getting some measure of agreement, that is, the experts. Having now supported the United States in Paris, we should ask, and indeed demand, of the American greater support for our policies. We should demand from them and get from them support for our policies in Africa and Algeria. I should like to see the exclusion of that dichotomy in United States foreign policy which so grievously endangers the

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alliance in which I so passionately believe.
I believe that the time has come when we should allow the ambassadors and the experts to do a great deal of the work that has been placed upon them, and rightly so, by the Heads of Government. I know that Marconi and the Wright Brothers debased the coinage of diplomacy, but I believe that at this time ambassadors will not prove so proud as Heads of State and so will prove more effective than their masters.
I applaud the attempt made by my right hon. Friend. I accept that it has proved a failure, and I think that we should be very silly indeed if we did not appreciate the extent and width of the failure that has in fact occurred. I do not despair, however, that at other levels much work can be done with reason and good sense and without the proudness of Heads of State. I certainly hope that the months ahead will be turned towards, not getting the Heads of Government together again, but to useful work of the ambassadors and experts.
6.37 p.m.
Mr. Jack Jones: In a debate on the question of world affairs by the experts on these matters, I want to express what I think the ordinary man in the street is thinking about this position. I refuse to be discouraged by the failure of something that did not take place. The Summit talks did not take place, and therefore they cannot have been a failure. I am quite satisfied that any failure to have the meeting can be placed fairly and squarely on the shoulders of Mr. Khrushchev. It will only strengthen the position of the West. It has caused millions of people in the West to ask: why was it that those persons in the East who apparently think that they have a political system better than anything else in the world, and who spend their time expounding it to the world, did not take this opportunity once more to expound it?
I look at this fellow Khrushchev with mixed feelings. I have been out of Britain some forty times during the war and since, and I have had the opportunity of speaking with some of his very close henchmen in East Germany on more than one occasion. I am satisfied that the ordinary man and woman in
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Russia no more desires the extermination of himself and his brothers and sisters than do the people of this country. They have set themselves up as being the mouthpiece of the nation but have not at any time given the nation the opportunity to express its opinion of the mouthpiece.
I begin to think very seriously when I see a man patting little children on the head and talking to ordinary people in the streets, which should be admired—not enough of that is done by our diplomats—and then breathing blood and fire and making a statement which means devastation. That takes a bit of thinking about. I cannot believe that Khrushchev is saying what he himself really believes. I think that Russia is beset with a big internal problem. When a nation or a Government thinks that it can do better than another nation or Government, there is likely to be trouble. After all, one can see this in the village choir. When one member thinks he can sing better than anyone else, then trouble starts to brew. In Russia more and more people are becoming educated. This also applies to China. I was writing an article for a works magazine on China. Backward as they are, steel output there is about 28½ million tons this year and it will increase next year and the year after, and we have the same position in Russia. They have a great amount of capital goods which later can be turned into consumer goods. Naturally, there is the desire of the people to express themselves about how those goods should be used and how there should be a fair and reasonable sharing of them.
I am satisfied that Russia is beset with a problem which demands of those who lead that country expressions of opinions which will keep them in the leadership, and that those expressions of opinions are not really expressions of the opinions of the people they presume to lead. I believe that sincerely. My hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) said, as we all know to be true, that he has visited Russia and met hundreds of young Russians, and that, wherever one goes in the world and meets the younger folk, they say that their desires are the same as those of our young folk—to live in peace, to have a full belly—to use rough and ready Yorkshire language—to have a

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roof over their heads and a fair share of the good things which Almighty God provided for all men to enjoy.
What I cannot understand—it needs a bit of understanding—is why a nation which says it believes, and which sincerely does believe, as Russia does, as Communism itself does, that capitalism will bring about its own destruction, should interfere with the West and its desire to destroy itself. Why Russia or the Communists should try to stop the West from committing suicide, I do not know. Hitler made that mistake. Hitler was doing very well. He was getting into the world's markets and making a job of Germany's economic situation. He wanted to get on a bit quicker, and he thought that the use of military power would be better than the use of economic power for that purpose. What happened? He came unstuck. So will this person about whom we are speaking today, if he follows the same line.
There is the question of atomic power, which is a frightening thing if people believe that somebody wants to start using it for war, and when they know that it will involve the destruction and annihilation of those who want to start the ball rolling. I have never yet seen a person who has power and plenty who wanted to make such a mistake.
Do not let us make the mistake of thinking that there is equity of distribution of plenty in Russia. There is between those who have and those who have not in Russia a greater gulf than existed between those who had and those who had not in this country when it was at its worst. Do not let us make any mistake in thinking there is equity of distribution in Russia. There is no such situation. Those of us who have been to the Persian oilfields know a bit about this equity of distribution. We can believe what we see.
What happened at the Summit which did not take place reminds me of what can happen in disputes between employers and workers. It reminds me of what could happen when I was a trade union official negotiating with the boss and when we had a very good case and the boss thought he would arrange a meeting with us because he thought he had a fairly good case. We on our side were after "summat"—not a summit.
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The "summat" we were after was lolly—money. On the eve of the talks the boss began to think his case was not as good as he had thought it was, and on the morning of the discussions he referred to a recent episode in a department, which he used as an excuse to delay, to put off the talks, and take away from us the time and opportunity to put our case.
That was the idea behind the complaint about the spy plane. Who was to worry about it unless there was something to hide? What had the Russians to hide from the spy plane? There is no need for the Russians to send a spy plane over this country, because in every factory and cell in every part of Britain there is information, and indeed it can be procured right inside this building—information which the Russians might want. The spy plane was something for the Russians to use as a peg on which to hang delay. Why did the Russians complain if they had nothing to hide? Was there anything evil which they are now designing? That is the logical question to ask. If they believe that they have the finest ideology in the world, they should welcome everybody flying over to have a look at it in practice—not object to one plane flying 12 miles high above it. Let us get the thing into its proper perspective and have a proper look at it.
We have the question of doing away with armed forces. How in the name of all that is holy and decent Khrushchev can stand there with his hand on his heart and say, "I, the leader of this great nation, am pure", I do not know. The Russian nation is a great nation, let us make no mistake about it: geographically, because of its vast wealth, great manpower and unlimited slave labour—bags of it—with political prisoners doing the work, and with a very low standard of living. We have seen them.
But Khrushchev certainly cannot say that as the accredited leader of the Russian nation. If he does, he must have a very short memory. We remember Hungary, Rumania, Czechoslovakia, the lot. There is blood upon the hands of the leaders of the Russian nation—more by far, and got in so-called peacetime, than any that ever happened when the great nations were at war.

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So this chap, in my opinion, was using this opportunity to strengthen his own position inside his own country. That is my candid opinion. Wherever we get people bidding for power—it is the same within my own party, it is the same within the Tory Party, it is the same in a church council. Wherever one finds persons bidding for power and failing, they have to find some excuse with which to blame other people. We find them seeking excuses, and things for which to blame other people. History will repeat itself in Khrushchev's case as in the cases of his forerunners.
I am not at all worried about the failure of the Summit talks, so-called. I honestly and sincerely believe that, as a result, people are woken up. Fat dogs do not bite. People feeling pretty contented do not worry. When people think that someone may have something to drop on them which will annihilate them or their brothers and sisters somewhere else—in Australia, in Austria, in Sweden, or wherever it may be—the idea that this might happen wakens people up. I think, therefore, that as a result we shall find that the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation will be strengthened rather than weakened.
I am one of those who are all for peace. I saw too much of what war can do in the First World War when I had the privilege to serve under a person who became the Father of this House, Lord Winterton. I say again that he was a fine soldier and a great leader of men. I saw too much of what war of that type could mean. People call it, I believe, a conventional war, but when one sees sixty or seventy or eighty mangled bodies in one grave, I know it means war, no matter by what name it is called. That is why I say I am a man of peace. I wish the policemen in my constituency did not have to carry rubber truncheons, but there are thugs about, and so they have to. I am for this country having the opportunity to defend itself against any possible would-be aggressors. There are people in this country who believe that we should arm ourselves with bladders on a stick. That is the sort of picture. The other fellow may have atom bombs and all the rest. I would rather that none of us in the world had any of these things at all and
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could settle our differences round the conference table, by arguing out what is right and proper—not who is right, but what is right.
This nation of ours can act as intermediary between the other great Powers. There is America on the one hand, great capitalist nation, as it is—and it is great, despite all its faults. Then there is our nation, which could be democratically Socialist. We went too quickly for people to respond. One of our biggest faults when my party was in power was that it went much too quickly for people to respond to the treatment it gave them, and so brought about some trouble to some extent, but also contentment. [Laughter.] Yes, because fat dogs do not bite; contented people stay away from the polls. Six years of Socialism brought about such a state of affairs that people did not bother any more.
This Summit failure has awakened the nations and awakened the world, and as a result I honestly believe there will be re-thinking. I repeat that this nation could take the leadership at this point. I do not agree with my very good friend who has shown his prowess at Bisley with the rifle. I do not agree that things will stay as they are. China, relatively, may be as far behind Russia as Russia was behind us, but in a century, which is not long in world history, China will catch up. The Chinese will lag behind Russia as the Russians have lagged behind us.
Why cannot everybody catch up and have a standard of living that is decent, right and proper? There is enough in the world, if things are organised properly, for everyone, including the Chinese, to have a reasonable standard of world's population in a few years. They will need to make more steel, and grow more rice and other things to feed themselves.
I have intervened in the debate to make the big point that, speaking as I think I do for tens of thousands of trade unionists and Socialists, we have a right to ask this fellow who the hell he thinks he is to be telling this nation, because of envy, jealousy, some personal desire, some whim or spleen against an individual, that he has the right to set about destroying us or anybody else. I do not believe that that is his intention. He has his own troubles and he has to create an attitude,

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by propaganda and various statements, that will strengthen his own position inside his own nation, because the weakness of the position arises from the desires of those who envy the West rather than of those who want to destroy it.
6.52 p.m.
Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke: That was a very notable speech from the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones). Though he claimed not to be an ex pert, I dare say that he has got nearer the truth of the cause of the breakdown of the Summit Conference than all the so-called experts put together. He was optimistic on grounds rather different from those on which most people are optimistic. He was optimistic because the Conference had broken down and therefore N.A.T.O. would be strengthened. Other hon. Members have been optimistic on somewhat opposite grounds.
At the risk of being thought mischievous, I have been looking at what people said on 12th May, before the Conference broke down, to find exactly what they thought about it then. If it is not considered bad form, I should like to remind hon. Members on both sides of the House of what was said by one or two hon. Members on that occasion. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley), for example, whose words have been commended by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, said on 12th May that unless we go to the Summit there is no chance of settling anything at all for the future. How does that chime in with the views which have been widely expressed on both sides of the House today that it is perfectly possible to take an optimistic view and that settlements are not only likely but probable at a lower level?
Indeed, my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary said much the same thing. His words were:
"What is certain is that unless this meeting and others after it take place, we shall not make real progress."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th May, 1960; Vol. 623, c. 659.]
Is it the Government's view today, the meeting not having taken place, that no progress is possible on a lower and more technical level until there is a Summit? Some of us fear that people have committed themselves to such an extent about the Summit that now that there
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has been no Summit they are obliged either to eat their own words or else take a most pessimistic view of the next six, eight or twelve months. Perhaps the prize should be given to the leader of the Liberal Party, who said that he did not believe that the Russians would be deflected from sitting at the Summit by the U2 incident. In a sense, I dare say the hon. Member was correct, in that probably it was not the U2 incident—and here I disagree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Epsom (Mr. Rawlinson) —that deflected them.
Finally, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, who was most careful to prepare the position and has been careful for a long time in case the Summit failed, said that the Summit is not a single ascent of a single mountain. He said, nevertheless, that failure could do no harm. He instanced the meeting in 1955 which, he said, was a failure but did no harm.
I must ask myself whether the failure of the Summit has or has not done harm. I think that no one could lay his hand on his heart and say at least that it has not done harm in the United States. I have little doubt that it will be extremely difficult to get the American nation as a whole, and not merely one party in it, following the bitter and unnecessary insults heaped upon the head of the Head of their State, to go as far forward as they had come forward. Those insults went very deep, and they are bound to cause harm there.
Mr. Khrushchev does not seem content with heaping insults on the Head of State. Only yesterday he began to heap insults on the Vice-President of the United States, a thing which I cannot understand. He said that Mr. Nixon had arrived on
"the crest of McCarthy's wave"
He added that he would recall for Mr. Nixon the message of the Zaporozhe Cossacks to the Sultan of Turkey:
"What devil of a knight are you if, without your trousers, you cannot kill a hedgehog with the part of your body you sit on?' "
I do not know the meaning of the reference, but anybody who knows anything about the Russian language—and I am sure that the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) will agree with me—knows that to compare a

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human being with an animal by way of simile is one of the deadliest insults one can confer.
Mr. Mayhew Mr. Mayhew indicated assent.
Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Since Mr. Nixon has as good a chance of being the next President of the United States as anybody, it seems unnecessarily gratuitous, having put President Eisenhower out of the ring for the next six or eight months, to insult the Vice-President as well.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the hon. and learned Member aware that there are many precedents for this kind of language from some of his own leaders? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), for example, described the earlier Bolsheviks as "hyenas and baboons"?
Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: I dare say that that made negotiations rather difficult with them. It is perhaps one reason for not describing people as hyenas and baboons when one says one wants to negotiate.
My first conclusion is that the failure of the Summit has done harm in that it is bound to lead the Americans several steps away from another meeting. Why Mr. Khrushchev decided to bust it up has been canvassed very widely in this debate. It is really one of the consequences of summitry that if either of the parties to one of these tremendous shows feels that he cannot bring home the bacon, that he cannot get anything to show for it, he will bust it up. Mr. Khrushchev is no exception to that, because, as the hon. Member for Rotherham explained, he has to produce something to his people and he came to the conclusion that he could produce nothing on Berlin. He therefore felt obliged to bust up the Summit. Certainly during this period the Central Committee of the Communist Party, as far as one can see, has been in constant session for days and weeks.
Surely the general sense of the debate has been that Mr. Krushchev had far less power of decision and manœuvre than the whole theory of summitry postulated, because it was one of the defences of summitry that Mr. Khrushchev, as a great dictator, could and alone could take a decision. It was therefore essential
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to meet at that level and at no other, because only he could make decisions. It now looks as if not even he can make decisions. We are therefore back where we started, on the basis that it is far better—as history has proved—to seek modest results at a modest level. It is to be hoped that the target for 1961 will be a reinstatement of the Foreign Secretary level of negotiation.
This point was put very well in the debate on 12th May by the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey). I hate to have to say it, but he comes out rather well in terms of looking up the record of that debate. He said:
"Without aiming any remarks whatever at the Prime Minister, I think the right hon. Gentleman would agree that if heads of Governments are to take continuously a leading role in international diplomacy they must learn to behave like diplomatists. It is very dangerous when the future of mankind is put in the hands of four individuals, because the state of mind of those four individuals during a period of ten days comes to acquire an importance of an absolutely terrifying magnitude."[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th May, 1960; Vol. 623, c. 743–4.]
That is perhaps the best epitaph on this period of diplomacy. It might have been necessary two years ago, because there was no other way of breaking the log jam, but to my mind it has outlived its usefulness for a long time.
I know that many other hon. Members want to speak, and I would only add a few words to what my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) said about tension. In the words of a popular song, "it takes two to tango", but it certainly takes only one to create tension. Either party to a diplomatic dispute can create tension at any time without asking the agreement of the other party if he wants it. We must ask ourselves what Mr. Khrushchev has so far gained out of the relaxation of tension. He has not gained what he wanted over Berlin, which was presumably one reason why he agreed to relax tension. In view of the state of mind of the United States, it does not look as if he will be likely to gain anything out of them in the near future. My view is that tension is bound to increase, in spite of the amazingly relaxed attitude of the last few days.
I am told that the jamming of our broadcasts is already slackening off

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again, having reached a climax during the period of the Summit failure. The observation about "allowing the dust to settle" is a forthcoming one. From what has been said, it looks as if Mr. Khrushchev is in favour of a continuation of the relaxation of tension. But we must remember—whether through Pavlov's dogs or any other simile—that what is said and what is done are two very different things. There is no doubt that the Head of the Russian Government has been through a considerable period of very strong and successful pressure from his own Central Committee against his own policy of détente. Therefore, although I am optimistic on the grounds mentioned by the hon. Member for Rotherham—because I am sure that this shock has been valuable for the West and for all hon. Members of this House—the future cannot be very optimistically viewed, even if the hon. Member for Woolwich, East tells us that it is something of a sin not to view it optimistically. I am afraid that I cannot force my mind to be optimistic for the future when the truth compels me to be the opposite.
From now onwards we must be content with a more modest programme. Judging from the events of the past, there is nothing wrong with that. The Austrian Peace Treaty was negotiated at a much lower level. All the valuable things have been negotiated at a very much lower level. Therefore, we should not be too downcast about the failure of this meeting. The benefit to be derived from a Summit meeting was overrated by us all, in a very natural desire to wish the Prime Minister godspeed on 12th May.
7.5 p.m.
Mr. Victor Yates: The hon. and learned Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) seemed to be of the opinion that the creation of tension came from only one side, namely, the Russians. To express that view is to misunderstand the present situation. I share the extreme disappointment expressed by the hon. and learned Member and other hon. Members about the attitude of Soviet Russia. I do so having spoken in this House for the past fifteen years against rearmament and policies which ca use tension. Since this country began to rearm, even under a Labour Government, tension has been created
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throughout the world. When the hon. and learned Member says that it was because Mr. Khrushchev could not get something out of the Summit that he bust it up, he is not fully appreciating the situation.
I do not want to follow his remarks, except to say that in my view the great evil in the world is not Communism but militarism. The growth of militarism has been a horrifying spectacle, from which we cannot expect a peaceful development. Five years ago I quoted the words of the Bishop of Chichester, Dr. Bell, in a pamphlet. I should like to quote them again. He said:
"To hold up the hydrogen bomb as an effective deterrent is to use the weapon of fear, and to stimulate suspicion, mistrust, recrimination, hysteria. To suggest that the fear thus aroused throughout the world by hydrogen bombs can turn out to be the most effective guarantee of peace is a delusion. So long as the hydrogen bombs are known to be possessed by one of the Great Powers, other Great Powers will not be content until they possess an equal or a greater number. So there will come about a nuclear armaments drive of the most dangerous kind, such as has often been the direct road to war."
Surely that is what has happened.
As one who has belonged to the peace movement in this country for over thirty years, I have received many protests by the Soviet Union that they believed in peace. As one who believes that peace can never be achieved by the greatness of men's arms but only by the greatness of their love for each other, I must express my sorrow at the fact that this peace propaganda which has been poured upon us has somehow failed to achieve what we had hoped.
Both sides were responsible for the failure. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition referred to the speech made by Mr. Khrushchev on his arrival at Orly Airport. I should like to quote the exact words which were reported, not in the British Press, but in Soviet News issued by the Press Department of the Soviet Embassy in London. Although during the fourteen days prior to his arrival in Paris there had been arguments about the U2 incident and about the causes of tension, Mr. Khrushchev said:
"The Summit Meeting of the leading statesmen of the Soviet Union, France, the United States and Great Britain, which is to be held here, is of great significance in international

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affairs. We all know each other fairly well as a result of our past meetings, and I hope this fact will contribute to the successful work of the Conference."
I cannot believe that Mr. Khrushchev would have said that if he had decided to completely wreck the Conference. Something else must have happened.
Mr. Khrushchev concluded by saying:
"We are well aware of the great hopes placed in the meeting of the heads of the Four Powers by the nations of the world, and the Soviet Government will exert every effort to make the Conference a success, to enable it to result in the further easing of international tension, in the consolidation of peace and the security of the nations."
I therefore feel that something must have happened to cause that sudden change, especially the change in the language used by the Soviet leader.
The Americans blamed the Russians, and the Russians blamed the Americans. One must remember that the military alert coincided with the Conference, apart from any difficulties about the U2 incident, and I do not know why the Americans brought along their Minister for Defence any more than I can understand why the Russians brought Marshal Malinovsky. The launching of the spaceship into orbit also coincided with the Conference. These moves were, I am convinced, attempts by both sides to emphasise their military power, and Adlai Stevenson was correct when he said that the Americans had provided Mr. Khrushchev with a crowbar and a sledgehammer with which to wreck the Conference.
I am not seeking to justify Mr. Khrushchev's attitude. His language was abusive. I cannot remember any international statesman being insulted in the way that President Eisenhower was. We must be frank about this. That kind of language does not bring about peaceful understanding. I should like to write to tell Mr. Khrushchev that, as one who has been associated with the British Peace Movement for many years, I deplore language like that which he used because it can be not only misunderstood but can cause bitterness throughout the world.
I think that the greatest danger in the failure of the Summit Conference was summed up by The Times when it said:
"Cold war ice will be harder to unfreeze,"
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One hon. Member earlier as good as said, "Let us leave it. Let us not do anything for six, eight or ten months". If we adopt that suggestion, it will mean that we are not prepared to take over the initiative for bringing about peace, which the Russians seem to have lost at the moment.
Another danger of the breakdown of the Conference is that people who believe that direct negotiations are a snare will hold that belief even more passionately, and those of my hon. Friends on both sides of the House who have been to the United States know how difficult it is to persuade Americans of the importance of negotiations. I went to America in 1947 and again in 1953, and on the last occasion I was depressed because so many Americans said, "What is the use of negotiations? You cannot trust the Russians". I feel that the present situation will make it even more difficult for those people to believe, as we want them to believe, and as they ought to believe, that negotiations must take place, because the only alternative to co-existence is non-existence.
I am not advocating that we should not in future have Summit conferences. I have always believed that every possibility of bringing antagonistic forces together should be considered and that personal contact between both the rank and file and the leaders is important, but I think that the Government must make greater use of the United Nations than they have done hitherto. After the breakdown of the negotiations, Mr. Hammarskjöld, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, spoke of the danger of war by accident. He thought it was a very real risk, because he told a Press Conference that this risk was:
"based on the assumption which you know very well that nobody in the present world with open eyes goes to war."
He went on to say that the problem which had been created required new initiative which should be taken through the United Nations in an attempt to solve this problem.
I want the Government to seize the initiative. I want the Government to take the initiative in pressing for peace other than by a mere meeting of heads of Governments. I want the Government to take the initiative in bringing about total disarmament, the abolition of

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tests and the creation of better understanding in the world. Nuclear disarmament is not the only type of disarmament that is required. I have always taken the view—though perhaps some of my hon. Friends disagree with it—that militarism is the greatest evil in the world. Bringing about nuclear disarmament will go only part of the way if it means that we will still believe in the conventional weapons of high explosives, bombers, submarine's, and the rest. I do not accept that a conventional war is preferable to a nuclear war. Neither conventional nor nuclear armaments provide the way to peace in the modern world.
As I see it, it is not the weapons of war that are the great evil. It is war itself, war as an instrument of policy, that is wrong. If I believed that war as an instrument of policy was right I would believe in the most devilish weapons that man could invent, but I believe it is not this or that weapon but the fact that war is an instrument of policy that is wrong and should be outlawed. It is in that direction that I myself seek to influence the House of Commons.
I take the view of Keir Hardie, and it is not bad to remind ourselves of it. I remember reading about the conference which he addressed before the First World War in 1911, at which he said that when men and nations deliberately disarm, not from cowardice or from fear of being slaves, but from their willingness to lose their own lives rather than take the lives of others, their actions would have a new significance and a new appeal, and the nation would not go down to disaster but rather become the greatest nation the world has ever known. Those words of Keir Hardie are as true today as they were then, although we have had two world wars since they were uttered.
The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, speaking only this weekend in his constituency, made a most extraordinary statement, in which he said that he did not understand the peculiar meaning of pacifist. He said that the bulk of Labour Members suffered from an incurable disease—political schizophrenia —and that in times of real crisis Labour's pacifist heart will always rule its political head. I do not know what my hon. Friends on this bench think, but if the
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right hon. Gentleman was saying that a small minority below the Gangway here are able, and always have been able, in times of crisis to sway the head of the Labour Party, he must be passing on a tremendous bouquet to us, because it means that we must be an enormous power. He must have forgotten that, despite all our propaganda, Labour leaders went into the War Cabinet in both wars. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman has forgotten that. If, in fact, this were true, I would begin to feel that we could say that the heart of the movement to which I belong is idealistic and Christian and its whole concept spiritual, but to say that it is the pacifists who rule the political head is quite wrong, because there has never been a party or any Government in this country which has ever pursued such a policy.
The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. John Profumo): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for advertising my weekend speeches, but is he saying that he has given up all hopes of being able to influence his own party?
Mr. Yates: Not at all. I have been in the Labour movement for thirty years, and one must not give up hope. What I am saying is that the right hon. Gentleman made an attack upon the bulk of the members of this party which just is not true. I would be the first to admit it if it were true. I only say that, as a Minister of Her Majesty's Government, the right hon. Gentleman ought to be a little more careful in his weekend speeches. I suppose that I cannot ask the Prime Minister a Question about it, because the right hon. Gentleman is a junior Minister and I suppose that only a Cabinet Minister exercises an influence on policy. The right hon. Gentleman might realise that we take some interest in the statements he makes, and if he wants any assistance on that matter I should be delighted to provide him with a few arguments so that he would be on the right lines.
All I would say finally is that there are two sides in this struggle. Both Russia and America are armed with military power, and that military power in the end, maybe through a mistake, will cause tremendous destruction of civilisation. As I see it, there is only one way out, and that is by negotiation. I hope

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that the, Government will not give up hope. I hope that every attempt will be made on the part of the Government through the United Nations to get all these matters which divide us fully discussed, so that we do not have to wait for a year before our peace efforts are made in the right direction. In the end, I believe that the people of Russia, the people of Britain and those of America are anxious for and desirous of peace. Surely, we must find a way to give expression to the world's desire for peace, and I believe we can do that through the United Nations by a powerful contribution from our own Parliament and Government.
7.27 p.m.
Viscount Lambton: I should like to say one word about the speech of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. V. Yates). We all have great sympathy with the views which he put forward, but the trouble is that one has to face realistically the facts in the world today. It is no use our disarming if the other people in the world are not going to do so. The trouble about pacifism is that it is a policy which very often, unfortunately, backfires upon those who propose it.
I think that the whole House will be joined together in sympathy with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, because we all know what great value he set upon his approach to the Summit. There is no doubt at all that, in the last two weeks, our foreign policy has received a very severe blow indeed, for the whole culmination of three years' policy disappeared in one day's theatricism in Paris. The cost of getting these leaders together, from our point of view, was very considerable indeed. After Suez, it was the policy of the Government to make it up with America at almost any price, and so we followed along American ambitions in a way that was scarcely advantageous to ourselves. At the same time, we forgot what had been one of the Prime Minister's own peculiar political favourites—the unity of Europe.
Now, we have been told in the last few days that we are making an approach and that it is possible that we are going to join more closely with Europe and to
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join Euratom. These things ought to have been done in the last few years. Instead, we made Europe distrust us and we did very little except prove that, though we were being independent, we had not the strength to maintain our independence, or to succeed in what we were attempting to do. In addition, we have let the defences of this country sink to the lowest level at which they have ever been. We now know that it is highly probable that when conscription has ended the total of the Army in this country will probably be no more than 150,000 men. If that is the case, then there is no doubt that we have made a profound miscalculation about the Russian aims during the last few years and that we have sacrificed the unity of Europe, the trust of America—because there is no doubt that the Americans are severely disappointed with us—and the strength of our defences for nothing except one day's insults in Paris.
By some miracle, we have had a chance to gather up what was lost. It seems to me that Mr. Khrushchev was singularly stupid in his diplomacy in attacking the West in such a brutal way, for what he did was to give us one last chance to combine together against the policy of cold war which he has advocated and practised for so long.
I therefore hoped today that in the House we should hear my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister tell us in some measure of the steps which we intend to take to meet this repeated threat. I hoped that we should hear some reversal of the policy which we have followed during the last few years and which has led us nowhere. I hoped that we should hear from him a statement that he was willing to see an end to his period of powerless individuality which he has been practising during the last three years.
Instead, we had absolutely nothing of the kind. After hearing my right hon. Friend's speech, I can honestly say that I do not know what our future policy is to be. I must be quite plain about this. I should have liked to hear that we do not intend to keep a policy of the individualism of this country going at the cost of unity in Europe, and that we should not have future trips to Berlin and all over the world if the single result was to put forward plans which are not

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acceptable to France or Germany or to the rest of Europe and which we ourselves have no power to push through. That has been a miscalculation, and I was sorry to hear no hint that there was realisation that there had been this miscalculation, no mention of the fact that the cold war is likely to continue in every field, and no mention of the ways which we intend to use to combat it.
Where do we stand? That is the question which I should like my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary to answer this evening. Shall we go on as we have done during the last three years? Are we to be an individual without power? Are we to continue to split Europe or are we to try to join in a closer association with Europe? Are we to continue to run down our defences and to have an Army below the minimum which every tactician in this country knows to be too low? These are the main points of the debate today and, in drawing attention to them, I should like to thank hon. Members for the attention which they have given me.
7.35 p.m.
Mr. J. Grimond: I wholly agreed with the noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton) in his disappointment with the Prime Minister's speech. I also agreed with him when he said that our foreign policy has suffered a severe blow. It seems to me that experience shows that when Western statesmen go to so-called Summit Meetings they make two miscalculations. First of all, they far too often think that the dictators will act out of character when they get them round a table. For some reason, they expect that dictators who have made their policies quite clear will be won over from those policies through being close to the blue eyes of a democratic Prime Minister. The second mistake all too often made is in crediting dictators who go to Summit Meetings with a desire for over-all genuine negotiations when, in fact, they often go there to score points.
Nevertheless, I agree that we must continue to try to negotiate with the Russians on matters in which there is some common interest in finding a solution. I dare say that it may be true that, to get these negotiations at all, we
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must have some green light from Mr. Khrushchev, but I am more and more sceptical about anything emerging from Summit Meetings as such. Furthermore, it is quite apparent that the claim of Britain and France to be included in a Summit Meeting while China and India are excluded is growing weaker and weaker.
We have had many rather woolly phrases this afternoon, particularly from the Prime Minister, about the need for unity and about re-thinking our position in the West. I do not think that these phrases are much good unless they are brought down to detail and to action in the kind of way indicated by the noble Lord. When we come down to what can be done, this country alone cannot achieve very much on the total stage of world politics, but there are certain ways in which we are actually the niggers in the international woodpile. This we can cure.
There has been much talk about a closer relationship in the Western alliance. Again, as the noble Lord said, there are two specific directions in which this talk can be brought to concrete action and two ways in which this country, in particular, can do something positive. One is on the economic side. Our relationship with the Common Market is surely the test of our sincerity about inter-dependence and Western unity. But are the Government serious about these phrases? So far they certainly have not been. They have missed every chance of leadership in Europe and, before anything can be done, they must change their policy and make up their mind that it was a mistake for us to stay out of the movement for European unity and that we ought now to join the Six, if they will have us.
This seems to be the crucial decision, and it is a change of attitude which the Government must take if anything useful is to come out of negotiations between the Six and the Seven. Such negotiations will not absolve us from taking a decision of this kind. Much will depend on whether such negotiations are seeking to bring about a serious caming-together in Europe. Nor would the mere joining of Euratom absolve this country from clearing its mind about Europe, because the proposal to join Euratom is not in itself always treated as an earnest of a change of attitude. If it were, it would

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certainly be useful, but in fact it is often put forward as an alternative to having a European policy. As someone put it, it is not a European policy but a Trojan horse to enable the British to get into Europe without undertaking any obligations. It is clear that, in any case, Europe will consolidate her fuel policies within the next few years and that something much more than joining Euratom will be needed.
Nor can we get out of this decision by talking about the Seven. In the last few years the Government have been brilliant at evading difficulties. The Prime Minister is now once again hiding behind our obligations to the Seven as an excuse for taking no decision and for giving no lead. But the creation of the Seven as a counter-blast to the Six was clearly our error, and the fact that it was an error makes it all the more necessary for us to get out of that error. A British initiative is needed—nothing else will do. If we were to change our policy and our attitude we should then have to follow this up. We should have to convince the Six that we meant business and we should have to prepare our way with the Six to establish some workable arrangements.
In that connection, we have not only to negotiate the terms of an agreement with the Six but also to negotiate them with the Seven, and we have to reach some agreement with the Six such as the French have done so that our Commonwealth interests will be protected. We also have to negotiate some agreement with countries such as Switzerland which cannot undertake as close a political association as we can, but there is no reason why that could not be done and no reason simply on that score why we should not associate with the Common Market. If we are to talk about inter-dependence, this is the sort of decision which we must make one way or another.
I had a letter not long ago from the Economic Secretary about Britain's relationship with the functional organisations in Europe. In it he said that we could not agree to parts of our atomic programme being subject to certain kinds of supra-national control. In that event, we should give up talking about inter-dependence, because that is the
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only sort of thing that inter-dependence can mean. He added:
"I can assure you that we do keep under constant review the possibility of closer co-operation with the Europe of the Six in these two spheres and indeed in all others."
This is constantly said. But it is not enough. This country has an obligation to make same proposals.
I believe that we could make a united European economic effort without doing any harm to our own interests or those of our Commonwealth, and I believe that a united effort by Europe to help Asia and Africa would be of great significance. It would also greatly strengthen the West in the peaceful competition with Russia in trade which everybody now expects.
The noble Lord also referred to defence and went so far as to say that our defences had never been at a lower ebb. This is heavy criticism, coming from a Government supporter, and I hope that the Government have taken note of it. I still believe, as Liberals have believed for some years, that the American deterrent should be enough and that our contribution to the Western alliance should be in other ways. I am not wholly unhopeful that the Government, too, are coming to think in this way, although no doubt they will not say so.
I suggested in this year's defence debate that as a second-best policy we might consider a N.A.T.O. deterrent. In that debate it evoked no enthusiasm but, apparently, it is now being considered in certain political circles. It has always seemed to me very much of a second best. If we are to consider a N.A.T.O. deterrent, we must be clear about what it can do and what it cannot do. I suggested it largely as a means of checking the spread of nuclear weapons, but I am not so sure that its value in this respect will be very great, because the French have made it fairly clear that, from their point of view, they still want their own deterrent, and that a share in a N.A.T.O. deterrent will not satisfy them. Nor am I certain how great this problem now is. On the other hand, a N.A.T.O. deterrent might be a sop to some European sensibilities, and if it were to stop the spread of nuclear weapons in any way, it would have value.

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Let us be clear about what it means. Unless it is totally supplied by the United States, the only available European means of delivery is the V-bomber force. This would have to be handed over to N.A.T.O. I do not know that in fact that would make much difference, but it would be strange if a Conservative or Labour Government, both of which have boggled at joining the Coal and Steel Community or Euratom for fear of interference with our national sovereignty, were willing to hand over our major defence force completely to N.A.T.O.
If, on the other hand, N.A.T.O. is to depend entirely on the United States weapon, why should not the United States supply it? If she did, we should certainly not delude ourselves about her position, for she would be an even more dominant member of N.A.T.O. than she is now. It is unthinkable to my mind that a N.A.T.O. deterrent supplied by the United States could ever be used against the will of the United States. It is, therefore, no good for the purpose of meeting the situation of which the Leader of the Opposition has sometimes spoken, when he visualises the possibility of Europe being threatened and needing the counter-threat of the deterrent while the United States is unwilling to make any such nuclear threat.
If the N.A.T.O. deterrent were to be the only deterrent, it might conceivably meet the situation in which the United States wants to threaten the deterrent but Europe does not, but it could not meet the counter-situation, in which Europe needs the deterrent but the United States is unwilling to wield it. There are certainly the very greatest difficulties over control and, because of that, there are great difficulties over the credibility of the N.A.T.O. deterrent. The best means of control may be the Standing Group, strengthened possibly, but at present the only credible deterrent is the American deterrent. Those who, unlike me, feel that this is not enough will have difficulty in finding any other credible deterrent which is not national.
Sir Alexander Spearman: Is not the real flaw in the hon. Gentleman's argument that, if there is a N.A.T.O. nuclear deterrent, there will be no conventional deterrent?
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If there is no credible conventional deterrent, we shall be faced with the prospect of using a nuclear weapon for any purpose, big or small.
Mr. Grimond: I do not see why that should be. N.A.T.O. would still have some very powerful conventional forces, which would be part of the general defence system in Europe. I do not suggest that one can get out of having powerful N.A.T.O. conventional forces by giving N.A.T.O. the deterrent.
We can at least agree one thing about the N.A.T.O. deterrent. It is not a compromise between those who believe in a Western deterrent and those who want unilateral nuclear disarmament. That is like saying that there can be a compromise between Christianity and atheism by everyone becoming Moslems. It is irrelevant to the controversy. Our contribution should be to strengthen N.A.T.O. in other ways. I share the view of the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Sir A. Spearman) that those weapons should be primarily, if not entirely, conventional.
Before I finish I want to say a few words on two other subjects, namely the Middle East and Berlin. These seem to be two danger spots, but they appear to be danger spots over which it is possible that some negotiation will be useful. At present the Middle East is out of the news. This may be because the noble Lord is in the Chamber and not touring, as usual. It is an extremely unstable area, and the fact that it is out of the news should not make us the least complacent about it. I suspect that anything may happen in Iraq and Persia, let alone on the Israel frontier.
If this happens, my view is that the Tripartite Declaration is much more of a trap than a possible solution to any difficulties or a basis for a policy. Again I ask, as I did in the last foreign affairs debate, whether this is not an area in which we are not only bound to admit Russia's interest, because after all she borders upon it, but where there is also an interest between Russia and the West to reduce arms and enter into a non-aggression pact.
The road to the Summit started from Berlin. I am not convinced that Mr. Khrushchev's reticence over Berlin should not be taken as a warning just

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as much as it may be taken with a sigh of relief. We have to decide two questions about Berlin—first, what steps could we take about it and, secondly, is time on our side? The two are interrelated.
Despite strong arguments the other way, I believe on the whole that time is not against us over Berlin. There may come a time again when, either through changes in the situation inside Russia or because of changes in her relationship with China or her European satellites, Mr. Khrushchev may be in a more amenable frame of mind to negotiate over Berlin. He has shown fairly clearly that he does not want a nuclear war over Berlin, and that, for the moment at any rate, he is prepared to hold off drastic measures.
On the other hand, I do not believe that the West can expect Berlin to carry on for ever as it is at present. It may well not be attacked, but if it is left in its present state West Berlin in the long run might well wither away, because people would not find it a place in which their children would want to stay. One possibility which I mention again is that the West should at least put up proposals to ask the United Nations to deal with this situation in some way. The United Nations could set up agencies there or take over control on the roads. If Mr. Khrushchev refused this, it would at least make him show his hand. We cannot be absolutely certain that he would refuse, because he does not want violence to break out over Berlin if it can be avoided.
Whatever else flows from the Summit there are some definite changes in British policy which ought to flow, particularly our policy over defence and towards Europe. There are some actions which the British Government can take or suggest and which I hope they will take. I do not claim to know what goes on in Russia, but it is fairly apparent that this country will perform its most useful service by looking to its own alliances for the moment, not forgetting the need for ultimo ate negotiation with the Communist world and seeing what within its power it can do to strengthen Western unity and put the West in a position where it can usefully negotiate with the Russians where chances offer over matters on which there is a common
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interest between ourselves and the Communist bloc.
7.50 p.m.
Mr. Gordon Campbell: I will not follow the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) in his speech on Europe, the Middle East and other subjects of general interest but not directly related to the points which were to be discussed at the Summit Conference. I think that the hon. Gentleman misunderstood the abject of the Summit Conference when he said that he thought that the Soviet leaders were expected to come to a conference of this kind and immediately be altered in their attitude by the blue eyes of the democratic leaders whom they met. I do not think that that was the object.
As I understand it, the situation had been reached on two or three problems confronting the world in which a step forward could be taken and even, on one, an agreement reached. It was thought that that agreement might be reached and the steps taken by a meeting of the leaders at the top. The collapse of the Conference has been a surprise and disappointment to most people in this country, but I do not believe that the idea that everything would be settled at such a conference was the right notion of the Conference in first place.
The fact that Mr. Khrushchev called it off after the participants had already arrived in Paris was the surprise, because he could so easily have stopped it after the U2 incident. It has been pointed out that he behaved mildly towards the American Government, although he made full use of the incident for propaganda shortly after it happened. It looked as though the Conference would take place.
To suggest that President Eisenhower's letter was four days late and that that had a great significance in the collapse of the Conference is not consistent with the thought, which I agree with, that the Conference was wrecked by the Russians although the Americans may have handed them the tools. It could have been wrecked after the U2 incident. When it was finaly wrecked at Paris, the decision must already have been taken to do so, whether President Eisenhower's letter had arrived a day or two earlier or not.

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Mr. Khrushchev's behaviour underlines the unpredictability of the conduct of Soviet leaders. We must be prepared for such sudden changes of attitude, and we may not be able to guess what is behind them. One explanation has been put forward, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) referred, that it is a calculated element in a propaganda and nerve war campaign. To blow suddenly hot and then cold and then hot again can have an effect on one's political opponents. There is another theory that pressures in Moscow which were not in agreement in the last few days with Mr. Khrushchev caused him to change his attitude. The outside world can only guess at these things. Perhaps we will never know of the shifting of power within the small groups of men who control Russia.
In the West there will be some who will say, "I told you so. This Conference was never going to work and it was no good trying to meet Mr. Khrushchev at the Summit." There will be a temptation to give up serious efforts to reach settlements with the Russians on world problems. This is excusable and can be justifiable in the light of the extraordinary conduct which we saw at Paris. I was very glad to hear that that is not the view of Her Majesty's Government and that it is the determination of the Government to continue towards settlement with the Russians of these problems.
I urge that other methods as well as Summitry be given full trial. There are diplomatic methods. There are meetings which are not public, as well as public conferences. We are now in for a period of hard words from the Russians, and cold war conditions are starting to come back again. There have been threats. Even today we hear of a threat by General Malinovsky in a speech about retaliatory action against any bases in countries near the Soviet Union which might be used for espionage purposes. Jamming of B.B.C. and other Western broadcasts has started again.
Let us not mistake the nature of Communism and Communist methods. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West that international Communism will not change over-night. We must expect it to continue to try to subvert, to try to over-
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take the West economically, to try to win the support of areas and countries and control over their peoples, and in general to implant and impose the Communist doctrine wherever the Soviet Union can.
We must keep our defences and our capacity to compete adequate. But there are matters in which I believe it is in the Soviet interest, as well as our own, to make settlements. First, the Soviet Union cannot wish a hydrogen bomb war and the total destruction which it would bring. To carry this further, it is in the Soviet interest that the testing of nuclear weapons should be stopped and that there should be some measure of disarmament to help the Soviet Union compete economically with the United States. It is in the Soviet interest that there should be a relaxation of tension and that certain dangerous trouble spots should be settled. Mr. Khrushchev and the other Soviet leaders will seek the: best bargains they can possibly get in approaching these subjects, but it is in our interests and theirs to settle some of these points. We should continue to negotiate by every means possible with this end in view.
Since the collapse of the Summit Conference Mr. Khrushchev has announced that he does not intend to conclude immediately a separate German treaty. That means no immediate crisis on Berlin. He talks of a Summit in a few months' time. He spoilt this effect by referring to a future Summit having in its membership not only China but India and Indonesia, and possibly others. If that kind of membership is given to Asia, countries in other Continents will feel that they should be there too. That would alter the nature of this Summit Conference, which is a successor to the previous meetings between Foreign Ministers and Prime Ministers since the war on the problems to be settled in Europe resulting from the victory in Europe. China, therefore, has not been involved in those talks, although I should be pleased if she were to be admitted to the councils of the world, and if it were agreed that she should' participate in this sort of discussion because of her interest in disarmament.
However, it does not help towards a future Summit at this moment to say that this kind of new membership should

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be added. We understood that this meeting, had it taken place, would have been a very close, informal meeting of a few heads of Governments, and that some of the meetings would have had very few advisers present. This kind of informal meeting, which can make progress, could not possibly take place with a very much enlarged membership.
The whole question of Communist China is much more difficult than I think has been presented here this afternoon. In the first place, her representation at the United Nations lies at the bottom of the argument about whether she should be represented at such meetings. This issue is raised each September at the General Assembly of the United Nations. I thought that last September enough countries were tending towards Britain's view that Communist China—although we disapprove of her policy—should none the less be the representative China at the United Nations, for an appropriate majority to take that decision.
Unfortunately, at that very moment, Communist China was engaged in activities vis-à-vis India and Tibet which made it very difficult for the countries which were wavering to take such a decision. A lot is in the hands of the Communist Chinese themselves to get this matter settled. Unfortunately, this September seems an inappropriate moment. The American Presidential Election takes place two months later, so I imagine that this would be a very difficult year to take a decision like this. I hope that that important decision may be taken at the United Nations in September, 1961.
The Americans are in a difficult position here. In the first place, their principle of recognition denotes approval of a Government's policies. That has always given them trouble in the past. In our case, very briefly, if we recognise a Government it is because we accept that that Government control much the greatest part of the territory and are regarded by the majority of people in that territory as the authority governing the country. It is, therefore, easy for us to take a step of recognition, because we do not thereby imply any approval of policy of that Government.
The other difficulty the Americans have is that this is not simply a matter of bringing Communist China to the
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United Nations as an additional member, or to these other conferences as an additional country. Communist China wants to take the place of the Chinese representative now sitting at the United Nations. That means that the representatives of Chiang Kai-Shek have to be kicked out first, and that makes it more difficult. The problem consists of much more than calling in a further nation.
China is very much concerned with general disarmament, but the Ten-Power Disarmament Committee of the United Nations has a membership that was arrived at with great difficulty, I understand, in negotiation with the Russians. It is a Commission of the United Nations. Therefore, although I would support a move which could bring Communist China into those talks, I cannot see that it is a practical possibility over the next year or so.
The Commission now consists of five representatives from the West and five from the Soviet bloc. It must be kept going, and we should try to make progress in it. We should not hold up talks on disarmament simply because Communist China is not there. In Stage Two of the Western Plan before the Committee there is provision for China and all other countries concerned to come into a conference on disarmament.
Another point which, regrettably, has not been considered at the Summit is the nuclear test negotiations at Geneva. In their present mood, the Russians may now prevent or delay an agreement being reached, although we seem so near to it. We must press ahead with those negotiations. The advance in the last year and a half in Geneva has been most striking. The Russians have agreed to a system of control and inspection for nuclear tests which, a few years ago. would have seemed quite impossible.
In the three years that I spent in our permanent delegation at the United Nations several years ago we had continual meetings on disarmament, and there was no progress at all, because the Russians would never agree to any form of control or verification. Therefore, what has happened in the nuclear test negotiations at Geneva is very significant, and we cannot afford to lose that advance. If the Russians have done that, there is hope that, again, it may be in their interest to make some progress on

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general disarmament, although we cannot be so optimistic at the moment.
I strongly urge that the Ten-Power Committee should be kept in being and used. I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister suggest that the Committee should be given some practical issue or other to tackle. It may be said that so far the two sides have simply discussed each other's plans—or rather criticised and thrown out each other's plans—but there are small matters on which a start could be made.
I suggest that there are elements in paragraphs C and D of Part I of the Western Plan, where it is suggested that information should be collected on present force limits and on armaments, and that this collection of information should be by statements by the States concerned according to mutually agreed criteria. Surely, the Committee could get down to the question of those criteria. It could make a start on a point that has to be agreed before the rest of the paragraph can be pursued. That is something that has to be settled in any plan.
It can be said, if one reads Mr. Khrushchev's plan, that that is something that would have to be part of his plan, too, if he were to expand it. In paragraph D there is an element to be discussed that can be said to be common to both plans, and something that the Russians would have to have in any expanded plan of theirs.
I believe in tackling a subject in that way, and trying to make progress on it. If one can make some progress, there is mutual confidence, and one can then go on to more important matters. The comparative success of the Nuclear Test Conference at Geneva shows that negotiation—a great deal of it in private—on things like this can lead to results.
We understand that Berlin was the other question that the Summit Conference was to have discussed. I cannot altogether agree with the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland when he says that West Berlin may wither away. I feel that West Berlin is very strong and working well. The hon. Gentleman and I were there together about six weeks ago. I have the strong impression that people in Berlin are quite happy to carry on under the present conditions because they see much worse all around. Admittedly some of the children have
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never seen a cow and one has to make do with condensed milk. One feels cut off in that respect, but otherwise the city can fairly claim, as it does, that it is the one city in the whole of Eastern Germany which is normal, because it is free and happy and its institutions and Press are unfettered.
I agree with the hon. Member, however, that this question, though it may have been put off, is still there hanging over us and we cannot simply think that it is out of the way. Mr. Khrushchev has put it aside, but he has got it as something with which hecan threaten the West if he wants to at a convenient time later. But if such a crisis were provoked, let us remember that it would be provoked entirely by the Russians, because there is no state of crisis there at present and the present system may carry on perfectly happily for years if necessary, though, of course, we all hope that a settlement can be reached of these difficult German problems.
Those are the subjects which the Summit Conference would have discussed, and they may have to wait until a further Summit after a period of several months if Mr. Khrushchev is right in his prediction. But we should attempt to make progress by negotiation by all methods—by the ordinary diplomatic methods or any other. In this I feel that a stage has been reached where perhaps more private diplomacy might be beneficial. Public and private diplomacy have to be mixed. They have been mixed in recent years, but now that the Summit has failed, I think this is a moment where more can be done by private negotiation in making the progress which I am sure the majority of this House wants to see.
8.12 p.m.
Mr. Wedgwood Benn: I intend to break the normal practice of the House by following the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. G. Campbell) in some of the things that he said, and I shall come to them a little later on, but I want him to know that if I do not begin by commenting on his speech, it is not that I have forgotten his points, many of which are important and with some of which I am in disagreement.
This has been a rather disappointing debate in some respects. I thought that

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the Prime Minister, whose work in and for Paris I admire, told us nothing at all this afternoon. Indeed, he got to a point in his speech where he appeared to be indicating that he had more in common with Dr. Verwoerd than with Mr. Khrushchev, and, although I do not think he intended it, he gave an unfortunate impression.
This has also been a debate marked with slashing attacks on the Government Front Bench from some hon. Members opposite. The noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton) delivered himself of a tremendous assault on the position of the Government which, had it come from a back bencher on this side of the House, would have been interpreted as a split in the Labour Party. But the method was so courteous and the manner so gentle that this will be passed over without comment in the daily Press. At any rate, there is one thing with which we all agree, and that is that the failure of the Summit was tragic. Nobody can deny his sense of disappointment that the Summit failed. Even those hon. Members opposite who believe that summitry is the wrong way to go about it must have wished it had worked.
I want to pay a tribute to the Prime Minister's initiative in bringing about, as he did in part, an atmosphere of détente and for trying to bring the two sides together. Indeed, I think that we shall make sense of the debate only if we recognise that all the participants in Paris may have been sincere. I agree it is a novel idea to take what the other side says at its face value, but why should we not try? Perhaps Mr. Khrushchev really did break up the Summit because of the U2 incident. It is ruled out by most speakers as if it were unthinkable that Mr. Khrushchev meant what he said, but, as far as I can understand it, it is likely that a Head of State would find it difficult to sit down at the conference table with another Head of State who claimed the right to fly over his territory. I think the American espionage matter is a small aspect. What mattered much more was Mr. Herter's claim that he had a right to do it. Even President Eisenhower was never able to give a permanent assurance that the flights would not be resumed.
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I do not believe we shall make much sense of these discussions if we do not recognise the possibility that everybody at the Summit was sincere—that is to say, that all the leaders want peace. And even the generals who are much maligned are actually engaged by their Governments to be cautious about détentes in case they result in military weakness. I am not a great admirer of the military man, but if we pay a man a salary, give him a bright uniform and tell him that he has got to secure his country's safety by military means, we cannot be surprised if on occasion he says that a certain course of policy will lead to military weakness.
So we must start this post mortem on the Summit by assuming that all those who took part, both military and civilian, were concerned to get peace. I do not think we ought to be too worried about the most recent attack by Mr. Khrushchev on President Eisenhower because of the President's well-known enjoyment of golf. It ought not to worry us unduly. I remember some of the robust utterances made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) over the last few years with reference to his own colleagues. Robustness of language is not incompatible with sincerity of purpose or with a desire to work with other people. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) in the past has delivered himself of severe comments on his colleagues but they did not render him incapable of the high office of leading us at a moment of national crisis.
The question is, if we accept the possibility that the four leaders at the Summit were sincere, whether their total failure to make progress means that we go back to the cold war. I do not think that will take place, because, in my opinion, the cold war died some months or even years ago. It died not because anybody wound it up, not because it was settled, but because the cold war has become increasingly irrelevant to the problems which confront the world today. Indeed, the whole basis of the cold war was that it was an ideological conflict. It was a conflict that was to be fought out by military methods and it was a conflict that really based itself on a quarrel between the European or white nations of the world.

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What has happened in the last few years is simply this. The problems of the world as we see them are neither ideological in character, military in importance, nor European in their origin. What has happened is that the real problems of the world, which are quite different and with which I want to deal in a moment, have increasingly asserted themselves and have proved that the cold war is not the dominant factor in the world today. We have had an awful lot of ideological discussion today, even quotations from Karl Marx by hon. Members opposite and comments about the Communist purpose. But it is a great mistake to credit one's opponents with a monolithic and consistent ideology. I can imagine debates in the Supreme Soviet in which the member for Minsk reads the third verse of the National Anthem as proof of the fact that the British are people with whom it is difficult to deal peacefully. It would be difficult for another Russian M.P. to counter that suggestion because he would not know what we here all know—that nobody remembers the third verse and it means nothing. It contains the words:
"Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks."
It means nothing to us. When I hear the behaviour of Khrushchev explained in terms of what Karl Marx wrote, it only indicates lack of judgment of the person who quotes the words.
Secondly, the struggle in the world today is not basically military. It is quite different.
Thirdly, it is no longer European. This is why I referred to the speech of the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn. The hon. Gentleman said that we could not have anyone else at the Summit Meeting except the four great Powers because world peace is primarily a European affair. A great many people looking at what happened at the Summit saw four white men each with the capacity to destroy humanity failing to agree. When Dr. Nkrumah indicated this in a speech soon afterwards, he won my sympathy. Quite franky, I believe that the Summit Meeting as it was conceived at Paris will be the last ever to be held in those conditions, and rightly so.
Mr. G. Campbell: The hon. Gentleman has misunderstood me. I said that
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this conference, like its predecessors, was concerned with peace in Europe. I am not opposed to other conferences of a much wider nature on more general subjects, and I made no claim that the peace of the world was to be discussed only at the Summit Meeting and that other countries were to be subject to what was there decided.
Mr. Bean: I am sorry if I misunderstood the hon. Member. It certainly was not my intention to do so, but he gave me the impression that he believed that there was, in some way or other, a proprietary right on the part of the Russians, the Americans, the French and the British to decide the future of the world. If he did not say that, then I do not disagree with him.
When I look at the world today and try to rid my mind of the history of the past fifteen years—not a bad thing to do—and I try to see how the problems stack up today, the problems I see are quite different. I see, first of all, the danger of the spread of nuclear weapons. I am an anti-colonialist. I believe in national independence as the first stage of responsible self-government, but if with national independence comes the spread of nuclear weapons, then nationalism combined with nuclear weapons means disaster. The nuclear weapon has a counter-Midas touch; it turns nationalism from gold into lead. There is a terrible danger that if we do not soon grasp this problem, nuclear weapons will be bought and sold and freely made by many countries.
The second problem—this has not been touched on today, but it looms very close ahead—is created by the rise in world population. I believe that the first true man made his appearance on this planet about 50,000 years ago. It has taken 50,000 years for the population of the world to rise to its present level of 2,700 million. In the next forty years, that population will be doubled. We know today that half the people of the world do not have enough to eat. What prospect is there of feeding the rest of them if we do not tackle the problem soon?
The third problem I see as I look at the world afresh as best I can arises from the struggle for human rights. This has nothing whatever to do with the cold

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war. There is a growing struggle in Africa and in other parts of the world, in Tibet and in Hungary, a struggle by people who want the right to govern themselves, and for human dignity.
The interesting feature about these three problems—the spread of nuclear weapons, the rise in world population, and the struggle for human rights—is that they all cut right across the cold war, and that the continuation of the cold war corrupts and worsens each one of them. If the cold war continues, nuclear weapons will spread more rapidly. If the cold war continues, the arms race will mean that the world will not tackle the need to raise living standards because the tractors will not be made, the pipelines will not be laid, and the ships will not carry the trade. If the cold war continues, every Government in the world will judge questions of human rights not by their intrinsic merit but by whether the person who suffers as a result of the struggle is an ally or an enemy. The Algerian war, which has been going on for five and a half years, at the cost of one million lives, does not interest us because France is a N.A.T.O. ally. Similarly, we took great interest in Hungary at least partly because Hungary was an embarrassment to the Russians and therefore a help to us. The cold war corrupts our attitude to questions of human rights in the world.
There is a comforting side to each of these problems. East and West have a common interest in reaching a solution. Mr. Khrushchev does not want everybody in Eastern Europe, the East Germans, for instance, to have nuclear weapons. We do not want the West Germans to have them. Mr. Khrushchev, surely, does not want to see the people of the world starve, any more than we do.
I suggest, therefore, that the Summit would never have done more than formally finish the cold war. The cold war has already gone into cold storage. What I hope we shall do from now on, through diplomatic initiative taken by the Government, is to stress the common interest which exists between East and West. I do not, however, believe that one can stress this common interest or make a creative contribution towards the solution
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of the problems I have mentioned unless three things are done.
First, we must transfer peace-making to a global level. We cannot any longer try to have world peace settled by white men in Europe alone. China must be brought in. We have all said this many times, and it is now a matter of vital urgency. Secondly, we must have a positive policy. It is no good talking about co-existence only as a relaxation of tension. "Co-existence" is a most unsatisfactory word. What we need is a measure of true co-operation on points of common interest. When I look at China and Russia today, although I am anti-Communist I want the Communist economic system to prosper in China and in Russia. When we look at these affairs in these different ways and in these different terms, we see that the embargo, the hostility, the trade bans and all the rest should be relegated to the museum of history. We should substitute a positive policy of international trade and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) said, cultural contact, if we can get it.
We must also do all these things in such a way as to strengthen international institutions. If the world does not look to the United Nations to tackle its problems, the United Nations cannot hope to survive. What alarmed me about the Summit procedure, although I accepted it because I thought it had a prospect of success, was that it took the hopes of mankind away from the United Nations to some other organisation. Unless the African in South Africa can look to the United Nations to support him in his claim to human rights, unless men, like us, threatened by nuclear weapons, can look to the United Nations as a place where tensions can be relaxed and negotiations begun, then the United Nations will never be strong enough to survive the terrible tests which lie ahead.
I come now to the particular problem of China. For ten years, China has been living in isolation, rejected by the Western world. British recognition has been a formality, and there has been no real contact. China is growing in population and strength and, within a very short time, will become the most powerful industrial Power in the world. Let us make no mistake about that. If Russia could rise from a backward country to become the second industrial

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Power in the world in forty years, without foreign economic help, without automation or atomic energy to begin with, and with a population of only 200 million, what will China do with a population rising to 1,000 million, with full Soviet economic help, with modern technological processes from the outset? With all these resources at her disposal, China will be the dominant Power long before I apply for my old-age pension.
I say to myself, therefore, how can there be peace while this great nation is still excluded from the Parliament of the world and still believes, as it does, that co-existence cannot work? That is why I admired the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East. He turned the attention of the House to this question. China today believes, as all new revolutionary States believe, that violence must spread and that there can be no possibility of co-existence. Our major task is to bring China into the family of nations. It is no good saying that because China is not in the United Nations, China does not matter. She dominates us with her absence. She exercises the "Veto from the vacant Chair." Unless China is brought in, there is no sense in discussing disarmament. There is no sense in discussing any settlement, because unless it is underwritten by China it will not be enforceable in the world.
At the time of the Summit Conference, like everyone else, I was very depressed, and on the night before it finally broke up the thought of what I have said about China came to me, and I decided to send a telegram to Mr. Khrushchev in Paris in much the same way as the women's section in Bristol occasionally send a telegram to the Prime Minister—more in hope that in real expectation of success. In my telegram—I have had no acknowledgment—I simply said that unless China and India are brought in there can be no settlement of world problems. If the Soviet Union were to urge this step—I said—it would be an initiative welcomed by the peoples of the world. He has now proposed just this in his recent speech.
Although I do not believe for a moment—why should I?—that Mr. Khrushchev either saw or heard of that telegram, we all have to behave nowadays as if Mr. Khrushchev were our local Conservative Member of Parliament—
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not much to my way of thinking, but a man open to reasonable argument and worth a telegram or postcard. This is the break-through in international affairs. We have to work with the material at our disposal. If I asked—this is what I hoped the Prime Minister would say—to set a course for the Government, I would say that the diplomatic skill which the Prime Minister used in trying to bring about the Paris Summit meeting should be used to bring China at last into the United Nations. Let the Prime Minister go to Peking himself. Field Marshal Montgomery has gone there, and it is obvious that a welcome of some sort awaits those who journey from this country with good will. Let him make this issue a big issue in the United Nations this year.
The hon. Member for Moray and Nairn said that this year is awkward because of the American elections, and last year was awkward because of something else. Every year is awkward, but, unless we face the problem of China, we shall absolutely fail to solve world problems. If I were asked to put a timetable before the House, I would say this. Let the Prime Minister open diplomatic contact with China at the highest level immediately. Let us aim to get the China issue raised at the United Nations this year with full British backing and let us get a Heads of State meeting, with China in the Security Council, in 1961.
Many other hon. Members want to speak, and time is short. I think that history is not decided by the conferences that accompany it. The course of history is decided by other factors, and a new era is coming, not because of Paris, but because events are overtaking us so rapidly that our old policy is no longer relevant. I think that it is open to the Government, if they are only willing to use a British initiative, to capture the imagination of the world with a policy that shows signs of making sense. I often think that the stalemate in military power which confronts the world has been accompanied by an amazing fluidity of political thought and understanding and that the world is receptive to an initiative from any Government if it seems to meet the needs of the time. We live in one world already in the sense that everybody is influenced by what everybody else says.

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If the Prime Minister is anxious to make an appeal from this House that will strike a responsive chord in the world, let him make it on constructive, creative diplomacy linked to the United Nations. Although the United Nations is not everybody's answer—it has many defects; it is based on the concept of national sovereignty—it has the one element in it that might succeed. It brings together people who disagree to see whether they can find common ground. That is also the purpose of Parliament. Parliament is only a talking shop. The seventeenth century Parliament was neither elected by the public nor did it control the Executive, but it was creative because discussion and negotiation are creative if the right people are brought together. We do not want to bring together in Parliament people who agree. We want to bring together people who disagree. We are all extremists here. That is why we are here—to bring extremists together to argue out the issues of our time.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: The more extreme one is, the less likely one is to be called.
Mr. Bean: My hon. Friend has my sympathy, but he has delayed my conclusion, because I was on my very last words.
If the Government follow this course and try to devote their attention to making the United Nations the instrument that it was intended to be and never was because of the cold war, they will carry this country and this Parliament a great way forward after the failure of the Summit.
8.35 p.m.
Mr. Edward Gardner: I should like to follow the theme of the hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) in his plea for a position where China comes into a Summit Conference. One fact which rises above all the others in this debate is that we cannot go on living on a perpetual diet of fear. The balance of nuclear power is something which can be accepted only temporarily. It is not a permanent way to peace. It is a balance which is too delicate. It is too dangerous and it could be economically disastrous. For this reason, our immediate aim, as soon as we can practically accomplish it,
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should be to have another Summit Conference, but it must be an effective one.
If it is to be an effective Summit Conference—and here I come to the point made by the hon. Member for Bristol, South-East—it must be one at which as many of the leaders of the world are present as need be, because it must be a Conference which is capable of achieving its full aim, namely, complete world disarmament. This means that it must achieve agreement with the East, not simply part of the East, but the whole of the East. We too easily forget that Russia is only a part of the East and that China is the greater part of the East. It is the whole of the East that we must have at a Summit Conference if it is to achieve the aim of complete world disarmament. Without Communist China at the conference table, no conference or agreement, however satisfactory, can pretend to root out the fear of world war.
Does anyone think that, without a similar agreement with China, Russia would agree to disarm completely? By inclination and by tradition, China has for centuries been a country of peace, possibly one of the most peaceful of the nations. The Chinese used to prefer umbrellas to swords, but the days of that picturesque pacificism have disappeared. China has been mesmerised by Communism. Let us compare China with the rest of the world. America has a population of 150½ million and Russia a population of 170½ million, but China has a population of 570½ million people. By 1975, and probably sooner, Chinese population and nuclear power could make Russian look like a tame bear. It is for these reasons that I see the strong need to have the Peking Government represented, and represented as soon as possible, at a Summit Conference. The Government must start now to try to persuade America to see this point of view.
It is tempting to criticise one's friends and one does it with great hesitation. I have a great admiration for America, but her attitude to China seems a little odd. Surely, it is inconceivable that an intelligent people like the Americans, aware of the present dangers, should be trying to perpetuate an artificial and wholly unreal state of affairs by refusing to acknowledge the Peking Government.

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They seem, as it were, to be utterly incapable of logical thinking on this problem or of saying what they propose to do about it.
It must be realised, as I think that it is by most people and, indeed, by many Americans today, that China which lies behind Russia—ominously on her doorstep—has a Government that cannot be ignored certainly by Russia and has a Government which must be recognised eventually by all and finally invited by all to take her place at the conference table. Only in that way can we achieve the ultimate by way of a Summit Conference—that is complete world disarmament. One can only hope that the next opportunity which comes along in September of this year will be one which the Americans, ourselves and other nations will take in order to admit Communist China into the United Nations.
8.41 p.m.
Mr. Michael Stewart: I trust that the Foreign Secretary will have noted or will have been informed of the frequency of speeches in this debate urging the importance of the recognition by the United Nations of the Peking Government as the Government qualified to speak for China. We know that Her Majesty's Government have taken that view for some time, but there seems to he a very strong feeling on both sides of the House that a new and even more determined effort is now needed to persuade our American allies to take the same view.
The hon. Member for Billericay (Mr. Gardner) said that it is easy and sometimes tempting to criticise one's friends. When we look at the events in Paris, it is possible to scatter criticism fairly freely in all directions, and I have no doubt that the historians will do so. I think that the shrewdest and hardest criticism made of the American Government's behaviour in Paris is the oft quoted remark voiced, as was fitting, by an American, Mr. Adlai Stevenson, that if it was Mr. Khrushchev who broke up the Conference, it was the American Government who handed him the tools.
We may without impropriety echo the criticism that an American citizen has himself made. In assessing the United States and the Soviet Government, we should remember that in America it is possible for an American citizen to voice
1106
that criticism, but if there is anyone in the Soviet Union who considers that Mr. Khrushchev ought to have displayed a little more patience at Paris, I have no doubt that he will maintain the same silence as Mr. Khrushchev maintained about the excesses of the Stalin régime, which he was subsequently to denounce.
But our task surely is not at this stage to make an exact distribution of blame or responsibility for the world's disappointment in Paris. It is to see what lessons can be learned from it. There is one lesson, I think, on the narrower field of our own alliance with the United States and the other N.A.T.O. Powers, and that is the need for much closer co-ordination between the allies in that alliance and much greater mutual knowledge of the policies of each other's Governments.
I want to illustrate where that is important. On any analysis of the events in Paris, it is not common sense that the most powerful member of the alliance should have been conducting intelligence flights within a day or two of an important conference without the matter having been made known to its allies and very seriously discussed by them. It is almost incredible that the alert could have been ordered except as a concerted judgment of the main members of the alliance, and we cannot imagine that if it had ever been discussed in the alliance any consent would have been given to it. The astounding thing, however, is that one member of the alliance can behave in that manner and that there should not be sufficient previous consultation between members of the alliance to prevent ineptitude of that kind.
One of the tasks, therefore, of closer co-ordination within the N.A.T.O. grouping should be to ensure that each of the Governments is informed in rather more detail of the military and intelligence precautions of their allies, so that we may weigh up, before military or intelligence actions are taken, what may be the diplomatic results of them and their possible effect on the alliance as a whole.
Another field in which closer coordination is necessary is that of the colonial policies of the N.A.T.O. Powers. One hon. Gentleman opposite expressed what I thought was going to be a view

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similar to my own, but he went on to say that he hoped it would have been possible to secure American support for some of our actions in the Middle East and some of the French actions in Algeria. I should welcome greater coordination among the N.A.T.O. Powers for exactly the opposite reason, that in concerting matters like that our American allies would have pointed out both to us and the French the imprudence of some of the things which we and they have done in other parts of the world.
We know perfectly well, for example, that our own adventure in Suez did not contribute to the reputation or efficient working of N.A.T.O. We know that the French commitment in Algeria is a very serious drain on N.A.T.O.'s military strength and tends to diminish N.A.T.O.'s morale and reputation in a large section of the uncommitted world. And yet—and this is my point—we, the French and other Powers with colonial responsibilities can apparently pursue those policies without there being any organ of consultation to draw our attention to the fact that what we do in the colonial field is bound to have effect, and perhaps grave effect, on the fortunes of N.A.T.O. as a whole.
I do not suggest that overnight we can get the machinery working for that kind of concerted military and colonial policy among the N.A.T.O. Powers. We are, after all, dealing with an alliance and not a federation, but we ought at least to get to the point where it can be accepted that the N.A.T.O. Governments can, without offence and with full propriety, express their opinions between themselves about their military and colonial policies. We ought to have sufficient feeling of common interest to get that result.
I believe, too, that if there were some permanent forum for political consultation among the N.A.T.O. members it would facilitate the advancing of the cause which so many Members have mentioned, the admission of China to the United Nations. If we were to have, as some people have suggested, every N.A.T.O. Government appointing a full-time Minister to be sitting in some kind of N.A.T.O. consultative body, that would be a forum in which our American
1108
allies could be made constantly aware of how much importance we attach to this question of China.
I attach importance to this question of China because it seems to me that the maintenance of the peace of the world depends on our getting all nations as a matter of regular habit to respect the international rule of law and the authority of the United Nations, and as long as we deny China a seat in the United Nations we cannot expect her to respect its authority. One cannot first call someone an outlaw and then complain that he does not show a respect for the law. China at the moment is believed in the eyes of many Eastern peoples to justify almost anything she does by posing before them as the martyred outlaw denied her rightful inheritance by the Western countries. It is important in everbody's interests that she should not be in a position to advance that argument.
Another point arises about N.A.T.O. I do not think that our American allies always fully understand some of the emotional trends in European politics. If they did, I do not think that they would have been making approaches to Spain for military purposes with the enthusiasm they apparently have. It would be a good thing if the United States were made more aware of what is the feeling of many European people towards this nation which is both a dictatorship and was an active friend of Hitler during the last war.
I have mentioned four things—military matters, colonial matters, the Chinese question and the attitude towards Spain—as illustrations of matters in which a greater exchange of views, to put it at no more than that, between the Governments in the N.A.T.O. alliance would be desirable. I do no think that that would mean that N.A.T.O. would become more and more of a closed group to the detriment of the authority of the United Nations. On the contrary, if the N.A.T.O. Powers pursued the course which I am suggesting, I think that, as in the case of China, they would be led towards policies which would advance the authority of the United Nations rather than reduce it.
This seems tome to be one of the lessons of the failure in Paris, but of course the failure in Paris is only the occasion for

1109
this debate. We are all debating a much larger issue which can be put in a variety of ways. I would put it like this: how much longer is mankind to go on living, maintaining the peace by a balance of terror? Is that the best we can hope for in our lifetime? Some people would think that to say "Yes" to that would be optimistic, but the alternative is that we shall not maintain peace. However one likes to put the question, that is really what we are all thinking about.
When we turn to that last question, as distinct from the diplomacy of the last few days in Paris, it seems to me that the Government and the Prime Minister are very much more open to criticism. I have heard nearly the whole of the debate and only two hon. Members, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and one other hon. Member, even referred to the Prime Minister's speech, and they both did so with surprised disapprobation. The right hon. Gentleman's speech does not appear to have aroused a spark of enthusiasm in the breast of any hon. Member opposite. The Prime Minister, as we all know, is a highly intelligent man. He must have been perfectly well aware of the emptiness of his speech. I am afraid that what lies behind it is that he has come to the conclusion that foreign affairs are better debated in secret by a few people who have the expertise in diplomacy, and then one puts the public off with a series of platitudes and one tries to create the impression that all is for the best.
More seriously, I would remind the House of the Prime Minister's journeys last year—journeys undertaken not so very long before the General Election. They were not looked upon at the time with any great enthusiasm by our allies, and in the event we are now obliged to ask ourselves what, with all these journeyings and all these conversations, the Prime Minister was saying. What is his or the Government's policy for the solution of any of the major questions now causing disturbance in the world? It is fair to say that we have never had a real answer to that question.
The Prime Minister defined his policy today as one of a détente. The view seems to be that anything that is too silly to be said in English can be said
1110
in French. He defines that term as "a progressive easing of tension." We should all be prepared to have that, but we are entitled to ask the Prime Minister what proposals he thinks will ease tension. It is that question to which we have never had an answer all these months. Perhaps we shall have one tonight.
Let us consider one of the major questions—that of Germany. We have argued not only across the Floor of the House but within both parties as to what should have been our policy towards Germany in the past, but it is no good raking that up now. We are now faced with a Germany that is divided; that is already partially armed and is being increasingly armed by both sides. Somehow or other—whoever's fault it may be, or even if it is nobody's fault—we have managed to achieve exactly the two things in regard to Germany that we should not have done. We have kept her divided, which gives her a justified grievance, and, having given her a grievance, we have provided her with weapons. As long as Germany remains divided and armed she represents a grave, if delayed, danger to the peace of Europe.
At the moment, I do not believe that a demand for the reunification of Germany stirs the German people very passionately, but I do not believe that apathy on that question will last. If we were in that divided situation I am sure that we should not tolerate it. Sooner or later the one factor that will dominate in German politics is a consideration of the way in which she can get rid of the dividing line. Then she will be happy to try any stratagem, at the expense of either East or West, if she can only got unity out of it. The more heavily armed the two sides the more stratagems in which she can indulge. Therefore, although we may leave this question at the moment, because she is not heavily armed and is preoccupied with other matters than unity, it will come home to roost in time.
One of the mistakes that we have made in many matters is the failure to pay attention to a country until it is really heavily armed. The hon. Member for Billericay described the way in which we used to smile at Chinese armies who went to war with umbrellas to protect themselves against the rain. I remember

1111
the time when China was regarded as a figure of fun in the world—a country to be pitied. As a young student, I remember hearing debates in the Assembly of the League of Nations in which the representative of the Chinese Government appealed to the Western Powers to forgo their rights under the so-called "unequal treaties". Nobody paid any attention to China in those days. She was regarded with pity. We would say that she was the home of an ancient civilisation, and that was all. She was not listened to seriously. Today, not many people like China—but nobody makes fun of her. Everybody listens to what she says. We all know the reason for that; it is because her power is growing.
That is why I say that on the German issue we must not wait until Germany is armed and more powerful, militarily, than she is today, before we try to solve her problem. The West cannot solve the problem by itself; any solution will require the consent of the Soviet Government. But hon. Members on this side of the House have repeatedly put forward one suggestion that carries with it at least a germ of hope. Can we not make the two Germany's, East and West, and possibly the other countries in the centre of Europe, first, a zone free of nuclear weapons, and then perhaps a zone free of all but the most minor and conventional forces and at the same time a neutral zone?
Unless we get something like that, I do not believe we shall ever get the Soviet Government to consent to the reunification of Germany. At one time it looked as if the Prime Minister was toying with an idea of that kind, but we understand now that that is not Government policy. What is the Government's proposal for untying this German knot? We have not had an answer to that.
There is one point about Germany on which I think we all agree. Let us by all means make every concession we honourably can to the Russian point of view in order, if possible, to get this German danger out of European politics. But there is one concession we cannot make either with honour or with safety, and that is any agreement which will allow West Berlin to fall under the power of the present Government of East Germany. If we allow that to happen
1112
the moral of it will be perfectly clear to every German and to every European. The moral he will draw will be that when it comes to the point the West will not stand but will allow the Russians to get their way. If that idea spreads in Europe the whole cause with which we are concerned will be lost. We must be resolute on that question. Search for conciliation and concession in almost every other aspect of the German question, but hold to that and recognise the implications which holding firm on that have for our own defence policy.
I must not interfere with the time of those who are to wind up the debate, and I conclude briefly what I have to say. The particular solution that I offered about Germany may not work. We do not know, but I am not sure that on this or on any other problem anyone will produce a solution that will give the right answer immediately.
We have talked in the debate about being optimists and pessimists and as if we expect that it is a law of nature that human affairs must come to a definite end, good or bad, happy or unhappy, in our lifetime. There is no necessity about that at all. We are not reading a work of fiction. Any one of us may have to go away, as it were, in the middle of a chapter, or even in the middle of a sentence, without the denouement, either happy or unhappy, having worked out. In that situation we can only press for the policies which we believe are just and have a chance of working, and not be put off if it takes a little time.
There is a long story behind all this. I mentioned how the attitude towards the power of China in the 'twenties affects the question today. In the same way, the whole problem of the mutual suspicion between us and the Soviet Government springs partly from the nature of the Soviet Government itself, and that springs from factors in Russian politics right back to the beginning of this century before the Revolution. In no sphere as much as that of foreign affairs are the sins of the fathers so heavily visited upon the children.
We must, therefore, expect any course of policy to take a long time to come to fruition, and one of the reasons why our task is difficult is that it involves such a combination of contrary virtues.

1113
We have to be capable of being prepared and resolute, and at the same time patient and conciliatory, willing never to permit aggression ourselves, and always ready to resist it if it is committed by others.
The two distinctive contributions of the Conservative Party's diplomacy in this century have been at the time of Suez when we committed aggression ourselves, and at Munich where we supported it in another. They have now given up that policy of lurching from one error to another, but they seem to have landed in the position where they have no definite line of policy at all.
My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition put a number of pertinent questions. I hope that before the debate ends we shall have an answer to them and a slightly clearer indication of where the Government thinks they should now go. Where, asked the Prime Minister, should we go from here? He asked the question, but it is really his job to answer it.
9.5 p.m.
Mr. Denis Healey: This debate has made an odd contrast, not only with the debate we had nearly three weeks ago before the Summit Conference, but also with the exchanges that took place in this House a week ago last Friday following the Prime Minister's return from the Summit.
On those two occasions, there was a most heartening unanimity behind the line which was presented by the Prime Minister, and for my part I can see absolutely no virtue in division in this House on foreign policy, unless it is essential; but on this occasion, I would say that almost half the Conservative speakers in the debate have spent their time attacking the very assumptions on which the Prime Minister has been conducting his foreign policy over the last few years. More important still, as my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. M. Stewart) has just pointed out, was the strange speech of the Prime Minister himself, a faltering speech, full of soggy platitudes, with no bite or precision. He seemed dazed himself when he began it, and he had us all dazed when he sat down.
I believe the Prime Minister's speech this afternoon to be a tragedy. I think everybody in Britain and millions of
1114
people abroad were waiting for a lead, a constructive and statesmanlike lead which would carry forward the promise which seemed to be implicit in the Prime Minister's behaviour before the Summit and, indeed, at the Summit Conference itself. The Prime Minister this afternoon had the ball at his feet, but he simply touched it tentatively with his toe and then shuffled sleepily off the field.
It seems to me that the first question to which we have to get an answer from the Foreign Secretary is why on earth did the Prime Minister make this sort of speech this afternoon. It seems to me that this presents a mystery almost as great as the mystery which we have discussed in the debate—that of Mr. Khrushchev's behaviour in Paris. Nobody could blame the Prime Minister if he were a little tired or disappointed, but the impression which his speech left on me, and I think on many hon. Members on both sides of this House, was that he had lost his nerve, lost confidence in himself and in the line which he has been following for the last few years.
The most disturbing thing about his speech is that although this debate was called explicitly to discuss the Summit Conference failure and the implications of this failure, he produced literally nothing to add to our understanding of these problems. There was no hint of what he thought had gone wrong in Paris and no suggestion of what lessons we should draw from it for the future, and the only concrete thing in the whole speech, which was a long speech as Front Bench speeches go, was an odd and completely irrelevant essay on Britain's need for an independent deterrent.
I should like to examine for a moment why he spent so much time dealing with this problem, which has nothing directly to do with the subject of the debate. Why did he do it now? To whom is he talking? We know that there is very strong opposition on his own side to the Government's defence policy. There is opposition from the right hon. Members for Carshalton (Mr. Head), Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft), and Flint, West (Mr. Birch), the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean) and the noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton), who expressed opposition in the debate this afternoon. But

1115
after all, we understand that the Prime Minister often has opportunities to talk with them in private, and no doubt sometimes he can take them. Why should he have spent so much time this afternoon in dealing with this totally irrelevant point of Britain's need for an independent deterrent?
The only rational explanation that I can find for his behaviour in this respect is one which I am most reluctant to accept. It is that his speech this afternoon was primarily concerned to prepare the way for the visit of the Minister of Defence to Washington tomorrow and the day after. The only rational explanation we can find for this extraordinary interpolation is that he thinks that it will be easier to obtain favours from the Pentagon if he plays down Britain's views on the general political situation in the world as a whole.
If this is the right explanation for the form and content of his speech today, it shows a very sad and unhappy misunderstanding of the real source of Britain's power in world affairs, because Britain's power and influence in the world today, as he himself, I must confess, has shown in recent years, depends of Britain's political leadership and not on military gadgets. I believe that British political leadership has never been more needed than it is at this moment.
On thing which has emerged from the exchanges of the last few weeks since the collapse of the Summit is a very wide degree of agreement, at least in this country, that the collapse of the Summit Conference was not the result of deliberate planning either in Washington or in Moscow. As my right hon. Friend suggested this afternoon, it was the result of a tragedy of errors, of a long series of miscalculations on both sides, and no real change in Soviet policy is implied either by the behaviour of Mr. Khrushchev at the Summit itself or by anything that he has said or done since the Summit.
But we must all admit with regret that the very fact that the Summit did collapse, even if it collapsed by accident, has enormously strengthened those people on both sides of the Iron Curtain who, as my right hon. Friend said this afternoon, have never wanted a settlement in the cold war, have never
1116
believed it possible to end the arms race, and have always been opposed to any attempt to reach lasting agreement between both sides. We have already had examples, in the howls of jubliation in Peking and the more discreet but none the less significant mutterings in the Pentagon, of the pleasure with which the events in Paris have been received in certain quarters on both sides of the Iron Curtain.
The right hon. Member for Flint, West made some play in his speech of the part which Pavlovian reflexes can play in political behaviour. I thought that I detected plenty of Pavlovian reflexes in the reactions of some of his right hon. and hon. Friends to his speech. One thing which one notices immediately is that once a Conservative speaker gets back into the old anti-Communist posture, he can evoke absolutely automatic growls of approval from the Conservative benches, which remain stonily unresponsive to any other sort of approach.
It seems to me that one good thing which has come out of the Summit, if we look calmly at what was said and done, is that there is now open, public recognition, both in Washington and in Moscow, that attempts made on the other side to reach agreement have to be made in the face of consistent and powerful internal opposition. It is very significant that in trying to excuse the collapse of the Summit Conference both Mr. Khrushchev and President Eisenhower have each accused the other of surrendering to the enemies of relaxation in his own camp. In other words, they have each tacitly admitted the other's sincerity in trying to seek an agreement before the Summit, and this at least is something on which we can hope to build.
But it seems to me that, in recognising the existence of negative forces in the opposite camp, they have drawn attention to what I think was the crucial blunder which each committed in the weeks before the Summit, namely, to fail consistently to take account of the impact of their words and actions on the balance of power in the opposing camp. Almost everything that President Eisenhower and everything that Mr. Khrushchev did in the week before the Summit progressively made it more and more difficult for his partner to come

1117
to the Summit at all, and, if he came to the Summit, to negotiate there.
It is precisely because the forces on both sides of the Iron Curtain which oppose a settlement are inevitably strengthened by the collapse of the Summit Conference that I do not think that we can afford, as the Prime Minister suggested, to wait until the dust settles, because there are plenty of people who oppose any attempt to reach agreement in the cold war, who will not remain inactive while the dust is settling and who, indeed, will use the confusion caused by the collapse of the Summit in order to strengthen all those elements on their own side which are most opposed to agreement.
The Prime Minister had a great deal to say in the months before the Summit of the need to keep up the momentum which was leading to peace. What is desperately needed now is to restore the old momentum, and what I think we most regret about the Prime Minister's speech is that he gave us no hint whatever of any step which he proposes to take in order to restore that momentum.
And yet, as the Prime Minister has, I think, admitted, the basic concrete interests which brought the two sides to approach the Summit in the last two years are still there. The cost and the futility of continuing the arms race is more apparent than ever and the danger of war by accident and miscalculation has been emphasised in the most' dramatic way by the U2 incident. We must, therefore, work harder than ever to exploit these common interests.
The Prime Minister's complaint the last time we debated these issues was that in my speech I put forward too many positive proposals for settlement. I will confine myself tonight to reminding the Prime Minister of the proposals made in the last debate and the proposals made by my right hon. Friend this afternoon. I particularly commend to the Prime Minister the moving speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker) on the need for complete revision of our approach to the negotiations for general and comprehensive disarmament.
In the last debate the Foreign Secretary was very forthcoming about the Government's intention to seek some arrangements for protection against surprise
1118
attack, not just at the strategic level, but also at the tactical level of some form of regional arms control in Central Europe. This is the time for the British Government to put forward their proposals. It was not possible to discuss them at the Summit, but there is no reason on earth why they should not be discussed through normal diplomatic channels, where the problem of a test ban seems to have been proceeding, as the Prime Minister admitted a week ago. very comfortably through all the roaring upset of the Summit Conference.
I should like to ask the Foreign Secretary if he will, in particular, answer my right hon. Friend's question: do the British Government propose to make public suggestions for a technical study of the cut-off on the production of weapons-grade fissile material and a technical study of controlling the means of delivery of atomic weapons? The right hon. and learned Gentleman said in the last debate that he thought that this was the way to go about it. Is he prepared now to come forward, either through normal diplomatic channels or in the Ten-Power Commission at Geneva, and make these proposals on behalf of the British Government? This at least would be a great step forward to breaking the deadlock at present gripping the talks on disarmament.
I ask the Foreign Secretary to answer the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham. What proposals is he putting forward to produce a settlement of the Berlin problem which will guarantee the security and the freedom of the people of Berlin? If the British Government will only put forward concrete proposals designed to put world policy back on the path from which it was dislodged by the events in Paris, they will be surprised at the support they receive, not only in this country, but throughout the world.
Anyone who has followed the reaction of the foreign Press to the events in Paris cannot fail to be struck by the unanimous reaction of the smaller countries—not only the uncommitted countries in Africa and Asia, but the small countries in the Western alliance in Europe—in the sense of a great loss of confidence in the capacity of the two great Powers, America and Russia, to carry alone the burdens which have been thrust on them since the war. One of

1119
the most encouraging things in recent months was the initiative of the four small Powers in the Security Council last week when they told the great Powers to stop bickering and recrimination and start positive co-operation on practical moves towards peace. If the British Government at least will respond to this invitation, for which they voted in the Security Council, they will find vast and growing support throughout the world.
One of the lessons of the collapse of the Summit Conference is that we must try to find some means of making this type of world opinion more effective. I support very strongly the suggestions made in the debate that, wherever possible, we should associate the United Nations with negotiations between East and West so that the great Powers are always conscious of the impact on world opinion of their private arguments and conflicts.
There is a very strong case for the Foreign Secretaries to attend meetings of the Security Council regularly so that they may have formal or informal talks with one another in the general atmosphere, if not actually under the auspices, of the United Nations. I have always been attracted by the idea that any Summit Conferences which may be held in future should be held as a regular feature of the annual meetings of the General Assembly of the United Nations. To treat Summit Conferences and meetings of Heads of Government in this way would have two advantages. On the one hand, it would reduce the atmosphere of melodrama and exaggerated expectation which attends the sort of Summit Conference we have had in the past. On the other hand, it would do something to ensure that the great Powers in their negotiation remained mindful of their obligations to mankind as a whole.
I most strongly support the suggestions which have been made just as strongly by hon. Gentlemen opposite as from our side for an early initiative to get China into the United Nations. I support the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) that, pending an attempt to get China into the United Nations, this country itself might take unilateral action to improve its own contacts at the unofficial and official level with the Chinese people
1120
through the exchange of visits, contacts in the cultural field, and so on.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Unilateral?
Mr. Healey: Bilateral. My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) is so accustomed to playing a lone role in this assembly that he ignores the fact that it is impossible to have exchanges on a unilateral basis.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Though I have been alone in this place, there are growing signs that an enormous number of people are coming with me outside.
Mr. Healey: I wish to say a few words about a theme which has run through many speeches from both sides, that one of the great lessons of the collapse of the Summit Conference is the need to strengthen N.A.T.O. I believe that this is true, but when we are considering the strengthening of N.A.T.O. we must accept the fact that the biggest and most important weaknesses of N.A.T.O. are not so much military as political. There are, of course, military weaknesses in N.A.T.O. Incidentally, they are not at the level of total, global, thermonuclear war upon which the Prime Minister spent most of his time this afternoon. Incidentally, too, if the purpose of British atomic weapons is simply to make a contribution to N.A.T.O.'s thermonuclear striking power, why on earth is the Prime Minister so insistent that they should be totally independent? If all he is interested in is making a contribution to the strength of the West here—a strength that most American generals have admitted is already far greater than required for any conceivable purpose—there is absolutely no case whatever for having an independent British delivery system.
I agree very much—and I think that there is a growing feeling on both sides of the House on this—with the view of the noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed that, in the military sphere, N.A.T.O.'s major weakness is a weakness in conventional forces, and that one of the most important things to which we must bend our thoughts in the months to come is the strengthening, not necessarily of the numbers but of the firepower and efficiency of the conventional forces of N.A.T.O. in Central Europe so as to

1121
reduce the need for atomic weapons in a local war.
But these military weaknesses of N.A.T.O. are not, in my opinion, the main problem. The main problem in N.A.T.O., the main weakness that needs strengthening, is the political one. The political weaknesses of N.A.T.O. are manifold. It is odd that no one in this debate has, I think, referred to the fact that a few days ago the Army took power in one of the N.A.T.O. countries because it could not tolerate the brutal and oppressive methods used by the previous Turkish Government in repressing political unrest. If that step leads, as seems possible at the present time, to an improvement in political liberties in that country, we must all welcome it. That incident draws attention to the fact that no military strength in N.A.T.O. is worth anything if the social and political unity of the N.A.T.O. countries is weakened internally by this type of conflict.
No one has said anything, either, about the most serious threat to N.A.T.O.'s political unity at present; namely, the continuing squabble between Britain and the Cypriot communities about the implementation of the Zurich Agreement on Cyprus, and I hope that the Foreign Secretary will find time to say something about that. Many of us have been appalled as it has leaked out, little by little, to the Press, what trivial issues are now holding up an agreement between Britain and Cyprus, and by the visible spectre of the colossal dangers that may erupt at any moment unless agreement is reached, perhaps even in the next few days; dangers that would affect not only Britain's national commitments on the island itself but which might well throw two of the N.A.T.O. countries into direct armed conflict with one another. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will tell us something about the present state of the negotiations, and will give us some prospect that they will be brought to a speedy close.
The other major sphere in which N.A.T.O. is suffering a crippling weakness is the vast and growing gulf that has opened between Britain and her Continental allies. I do not think that anybody can deny that here the basic problem is a political one and not an economic one. Indeed, looking back now with a hindsight, one is forced to the conclusion that the real root cause
1122
of the present gulf between Britain and the Continent was Britain's decision in 1957 to sacrifice her contribution to the defence of Europe on the ground for the sake of trying to build an independent nuclear deterrent.
As long as Britain continues to seek a unique status within the Western alliance, different from, and in some senses superior to, that of her Continental allies, there will be no prospect whatever of bridging the economic and political gulfs that have been opened by the division between the Common Market countries and the Outer Seven. On the other hand, if we can once make this great political leap—I agree very much with some of the things, though not all, that the noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed said in his interesting speech on this subject—if we can restore confidence in Europe in our readiness to see ourselves treated on the same level as the other European countries, the economic difficulties arising from the Common Market might easily be overcome.
If we look back over these fields—the problems presented by negotiations with Russia and the weaknesses which remain inside the Western alliance—we can see that there is at the present time an urgent need for action and for British leadership. This country must be positive and tireless in its efforts to root out the weaknesses in the Western alliance, to work for agreement between the West and the Communist countries, and to attack problems of poverty in Africa and Asia which in the long run may present dangers even greater than the cold war itself. There was no sign whatever in the Prime Minister's speech that the Government are even conscious of these problems, still less tackling them. I hope that perhaps this was one of the Prime Minister's off-days—he does have them, like all of us—and I hope that the Foreign Secretary will show more imagination and courage when he replies.
I conclude by saying with all the earnestness at my command that millions of people in this country and hundreds of millions of people abroad will be brought close to despair if Britain now abandons the road which she has been following in the last few years—indeed, if she does not now take up the struggle with more energy and enthusiasm than ever—

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and I hope that the Foreign Secretary, when he replies, will do something to remove the doubts and uncertainties which have been created by the Prime Minister's unhappy performance this afternoon.
9.32 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): There have been many interesting and thoughtful speeches during the debate. I am sorry that I have not been able to hear them all myself, but immediately after 10 o'clock I go to Washington for a meeting of the S.E.A.T.O. organisation tomorrow morning.
I am particularly sorry to have missed the robust speech from the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Jack Jones). I do not think the speeches, from what I have heard of them, have been noticeably partisan, with one or two exceptions. The hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) permitted himself one reference to "soggy platitudes". I do not think his own speech showed a conspicuous lack of these platitudes.
A number of questions were asked during the debate and I will try to answer as many as I can. First of all, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition asked me about the alert. As President Eisenhower has himself made clear, this was a routine test of American communications. There was no consultation between us, nor in our view was that necessary.
The second question that the right hon. Gentleman asked me was what consultation took place with the United States about the statements made with regard to the shooting-down of the U2 aircraft. This was an American aircraft; it was a matter for the Americans and there was no consultation about it.
The third question which he asked me was with regard to Mr. Khrushchev's letter of 9th May. He asked me whether that letter had indicated the possibility that the Summit Conference might be abandoned. The answer is that it did not. After pointing out certain features in the international situation which Mr. Khrushchev thought to be unsatisfactory, he expressed the hope that all the participants would have the mutual desire to reach understanding on the questions being considered at the meeting,
1124
and he referred to the "forthcoming Summit Conference".
The next question that the right hon. Gentleman asked me was whether during the meeting in Paris on the Sunday—that is to say, the meeting at which Mr. Khrushchev came to the British Embassy to see the Prime Minister—he rehearsed to the Prime Minister the speech that he was going to make the following day, and whether the Prime Minister told Mr. Khrushchev about President Eisenhower's decision which President Eisenhower announced at the Monday meeting. The reply to the second part of that question is No. The Prime Minister did not intimate to Mr. Khrushchev what the President was going to say, because I should have thought it was clearly for the President himself to announce that decision to Mr. Khrushchev. Mr. Khrushchev did tell the Prime Minister a good deal of what he subsequently said at the Monday meeting, but he did not include—we wondered at this—in what he said on the Sunday his statement about another Summit Meeting in six or eight months, and he did not refer at the Sunday conversation to the invitation to President Eisenhower to visit the Soviet Union being withdrawn.
The next question which the right hon. Gentleman asked me was: why did not the Western leaders have a meeting with Mr. Khrushchev on the Tuesday? Why was Mr. Khrushchev not invited to that Tuesday meeting? Of course, he had been invited to come to the meeting at 3 o'clock, but I think that the purpose of the right hon. Gentleman's question was to suggest that there ought to have been some further effort during the afternoon to have Mr. Khrushchev come to that meeting in order to discuss the conditions put to the Americans.
Mr. Gaitskell: May I clear up the point? I asked, why was it that, when Mr. Khrushchev, on being invited to that meeting, put the question, "Is this a further preliminary meeting or is it the first meeting of the Summit Conference proper?". he was not told "This is another preliminary meeting to see whether we can get going"?
Mr. Lloyd: He was not told that. I think the right hon. Gentleman himself has given the answer in his speech. The

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right hon. Gentleman said that he considered that the conditions which Mr. Khrushchev had demanded of President Eisenhower were unacceptable. Mr. Khrushchev had made clear twice that day, first at about 9 o'clock in the morning when he left the Soviet Embassy and later in a telephone message sent on his behalf, at, I think, about five minutes to three in the afternoon, that he was still insisting upon those conditions. In the circumstances, with Mr. Khrushchev still insisting upon them, I think that a meeting to discuss those conditions would have done more harm than good.
Mr. Gaitskell: I am much obliged to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I will not pursue that further, although I do not think that there is much doubt that Mr. Khrushchev gave two sorts of answers to the invitation, one in which he reiterated his conditions and the other in which he asked what kind of conference it was, in fact, to be. In any event, I should have thought that it was worth while having a last try to see if he could modify those conditions.
As the right hon. and learned Gentleman has kindly answered those questions, I should like to put one on the subject of the alert. Are we to take it that there is never any consultation when these alerts take place? Are we never informed at all? Do aircraft leave the ground, so far as this country is concerned? Are they fully equipped with H-bombs when this takes place, and, if it was just a routine alert, why was so much publicity given to the announcement?
Mr. Lloyd: I cannot go into those supplementary questions about the alert. [Interruption.] There are Questions tomorrow to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. He will, no doubt, deal with those matters then.
With regard to the matter on which I gave way to the right hon. Gentleman, that is to say, the question about the Tuesday afternoon meeting, we did decide to have another attempt, and that is precisely why, later in the day, I invited Mr. Gromyko, with the knowledge of my United States and French colleagues, to have a final talk. It lasted about an hour and twenty minutes, and from it it became clear to me that it would not be possible to hold a Summit
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Meeting in present circumstances. It was precisely in order to make that final effort to see what the possibilities were that the Western statement was postponed until 9.30 or 10 o'clock in the evening.
To sum up this part of the debate, I think that the Western allies did everything possible to enable the meeting to take place. President Eisenhower showed great dignity and restraint when he was being fiercely attacked, and by his statement that the flights would not be resumed he did, I think, play his part. President de Gaulle and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister attempted very hard to persuade Mr. Khrushchev to take a more moderate attitude. But, looking back on it, I think that the decisive moment during these Paris talks was when, about 2 o'clock on the Monday afternoon, in spite of pleas made to him both by the Prime Minister and by President de Gaulle, Mr. Khrushchev announced that he was going to make public the speech that he had made. Appeals were made to him to try to draw up a joint statement, because we still hoped that it would be possible at that time to get the Conference to meet. Mr. Khrushchev was absolutely adamant. He was not going to be persuaded. He was determined to make his statement. From that time, when he decided to publish his statement in those terms, there was not much chance of getting the Conference to meet.
The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition asked a question about the future. He asked whether the failure of the Summit had made any difference to President Eisenhower's statement that there would be no more U2 flights. I believe that that statement stands. It was reaffirmed by the President in his broadcast to the American people on 25th May.
The second part of the debate has concerned, not the past, but the question of what effect the failure—of the Summit will have upon our relations with countries on the other side of the Iron Curtain. We intend—we have said so—to stick to our policy. The hon. Member for Leeds, East said the world was hoping that we would save it from despair by continuing the policy we have carried out for the last few years. That is exactly what my right hon.

1127
Friend said in his speech opening the debate. He said that we were to go on carrying out our policy.
After the intervention of my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch), I realise that I must be very careful about using the word "tension". I have a definition of it. It is:
"Stretching, being stretched; tenseness; mental strain or excitement; strained (political, social, etc.) state; stress by which bar, cord, etc., is pulled when it is part of a system in equilibrium or motion; expansion force of gas or vapour."
To put it another way, although I still think that the phrase "to seek a relaxation of tension" is fairly well understood, what I think we have to do is to try to establish conditions by discussion and negotiation under which there can be genuinely peaceful co-existence in the world. I do not think that that is a weakness. I think that that is common sense. Of course, it will not be easy. It will not be rapid process. We all know about the motives of the Communists and the Marxists and their ambitions. But we hope conditions will gradually evolve in which it will be possible to have peaceful coexistence, with nations of different social structures living side by side.
We have been asked what concessions we are going to make to get that or what concessions they will make to get it. I hope that it will be a process of mutual concession. There are examples in trade and in the exchange of information and contacts. I quite agree that there is nothing more wrong in dealing with the Soviet Union than to make unilateral concessions. I think that we have to try to establish negotiations in which equivalent concessions will be made by both sides. That applies very much in the sphere of disarmament, and that is the way in which progress has been made in the Nuclear Tests Conference.
People say that what happened in Paris at the Summit shows how wrong this policy has been. I do not think that it shows anything of the sort. I think that it shows how necessary this policy has been, and how right we were to press on and to try to get a meeting called together. I admit that summitry is not the only way to achieve these purposes, but I must deal with one other point. It
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has been said that this Summit Meeting had not been sufficiently prepared and that it was wrong to go to a meeting which had not been sufficiently prepared. But let us remember what had happened. We had four months last summer at Geneva preparing for discussions on Germany and Berlin. The Nuclear Tests Conference had been going on for nearly eighteen months. The disarmament meeting in Geneva had met and been discussing for five to six weeks. I think that we had reached a position where there had been adequate preparation as a result of which it was possible to take at that level a certain number of fairly simple decisions.
Although I did not hear it, I was told about the speech of the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew). I very much wanted to explore at the meeting the idea of a code of behaviour between the two systems and exactly what is meant by the
détente and by the relaxation of tension. The hon. Member referred to the Stalinist international organisations and asked what kind of propaganda we should be permitted to indulge in. I would add another question: what kind of interference in the affairs of other countries is legitimate, what kind of aid should be given and what purposes should be served? We could have had a useful talk about a code of behaviour. I entirely agree with the hon. Member that we must not be too despondent. There has been a great deal of progress in the last ten years in that direction.
The suggestion was made that the phrase, "Let the dust settle", came from my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. It did not. It was Mr. Khrushchev who put it that way. It is necessary to let the question settle down a little before deciding exactly how we can push ahead. There are, however, other means. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that the chance of another meeting in the near future is not very great. Therefore, we must pursue our objectives by other means. That means the diplomatic channels and meetings of Foreign Ministers. I quite agree concerning the possible usefulness of meetings within the framework of the United Nations. It was exactly for that reason that we put forward, in July, 1958, the proposal for a meeting of the Security Council at Heads of Government level. That was at first

1129
accepted but then, unfortunately, rejected by Mr. Khrusbchev.
The Leader of the Opposition asked that British influence should be thrown, in favour of new negotiations, aimed against groups in the United States and the Soviet Union who are against negotiation. I can say categorically that our influence will be thrown against anybody, anywhere, who is against trying to settle these problems by negotiation and discussion and who wants to try to settle them by war or the threat of war. We will certainly pursue that line and try to maintain momentum behind that conception.
I should like now to say a word about the composition of the Summit Conference. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said, we have never claimed that this was the perfect composition which will last for ever or that it is the only kind of Summit Conference that will ever take place. We must, however, remember that the origin of the meeting was the situation in Germany and Berlin; and that is where the Four Powers who met in Paris have a special responsibility.
The two directions in which we can persevere, and try to persevere almost at once, are nuclear tests and disarmament. The Leader of the Opposition asked about the American tests and said that the United States Government had not confirmed my statement in the last debate. At the time of that debate, President Eisenhower was having a Press Conference in which he dealt with that point. Dealing with this programme, he said:
"It is not nuclear weapons testing that is involved."
He then referred to
"the co-ordinated direction of a body made up of the United Kingdom, the Soviet Union and ourselves"—
that is, the United States. He said that
"the tests are not expected to have anything to do either with weapons development or the … peaceful uses project"
The Leader of the Opposition will remember that there was another article in the Treaty dealing with nuclear experiments for peaceful purposes. The President went on to say that he thought that the Russians would, and should, see everything that was necessary. It is clear that the position concerning the tests is as I have stated.
We must go on at the meeting at Geneva seeking agreement on the three
1130
matters to which I referred in my last speech: first, the length of the moratorium; secondly, the quota and thirdly, the composition problem. The kind of argument which goes on at Geneva is a little frustrating—for example, about the size of the quota. One side says that it is a purely political decision; that is, the Soviet Union. The other side puts forward the view that it must have some relationship to the number of suspicious events. Why not fix the number and let everybody argue how they reach the number in whatever way suits themselves? We must try to get on with the length of moratorium, the composition problem and the quota.
With regard to the ten-Power group and the weighty matters put forward by the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker) on the question of adding to the numbers, as I have said before the present composition was not our choice. I should have preferred another selection of countries, but that was the only formula on which we could get agreement.
It has been suggested that the United Nations should be brought in. The United Nations is brought in each year and it usually debates disarmament for between four and six weeks. It has every opportunity and there will be every opportunity, I am perfectly certain, at the next meeting of the General Assembly to see if there is a contribution to be made or some way in which the views of the smaller countries can be canalised and help towards a solution.
Mr. Gaitskell: Since we last discussed this point about the invitation to China and India, Mr. Khrushchev has gone out of his way to say that they should be present at the next Summit. Would it not, therefore, be a good idea to take the initiative by inviting them to the Disarmament Conference?
Mr. Lloyd: I do not think that follows, although it has been said before. I must hurry on, because there are a number of points which I want to make. I have made my position concerning China at the Disarmament Conference clear. I said the last time we debated this that agreement was not possible unless China was a participant and that we could not get a realistic disarmament agreement without China's signature. Our purpose

1131>
is to try to get a nuclear tests agreement and, as soon as that is obtained, the question of China's accession must come up. With regard to general disarmament, the first step in the second stage of our plan is to have a general conference at which China would be present.
As regards other questions asked, we shall certainly put forward proposals for the studies which the hon. Gentleman asks for. So far as M. Moch's statement of 15th March is concerned, I should have to examine its actual terms, but I am not conscious of any difference in principle between M. Moch and myself on this matter.
The third part of the debate dealt with the question of strengthening our ties with our allies. There has been a good deal of talk about more consultation. It would appear that this consultation has been asked for so that we may have the opportunity of pointing out to our allies how wrong they are about everything. I am not certain that that is the best way of holding together the alliance.
The suggestion was made that the permanent Council of N.A.T.O. is too weak, and that Ministers should go there. That is a touching belief in the politician as opposed to the professional. I do not think that an experienced ambassador is necessarily worse than, in a country where there are changes of Government, a succession of Ministers. N.A.T.O. is not supranational. The Government have to make decisions and I think that a Minister would have to consult just in the same way as an ambassador.
The "Three Wise Men" reported and each of their recommendations to deal with political discussions or consultation was accepted. I think that there has been a great improvement in the general political consultation in N.A.T.O. I was a little surprised that the right hon. Gentleman seemed to put forward the suggestion for a political standing group, just as there is a military standing group. That, I think, would be absolute anathema to all the smaller countries of N.A.T.O. One thing which they are constantly protesting against or watching for is whether we are seeking to have a tripartite discussion apart from them and whether we are to set up some new
1132
institution for tripartite discussions. Therefore, I would think that we had better try to perfect the present system —M. Speak has had a great influence in this. I agree that N.A.T.O. must discuss matters that are technically outside the N.A.T.O. area.
The hon. Member for Leeds, East said that the cause of the trouble between us and Europe was the decision in 1957 to have an independent deterrent. That decision was not made in 1957 at all; it is not true. The question of the reduction of our contribution to land defence was put to our N.A.T.O. allies at that time for the reason of balance of payments and accepted also on the basis that we were to have Regular Forces and that our military effectiveness was not to be diminished.
I quite agree that we have to try to come closer to the rest of Western Europe. What we have been trying to do in the last few months is to improve the political atmosphere and I think that without doubt there has been a substantial improvement in our relations with France and other countries on the Continent. We have to see whether in this improved atmosphere we can get the political will to make a settlement. For the first time since December, 1958, there does seem to be a widespread willingness to re-examine the prospects for a united effort to get unanimity in Europe in the economic field. The Government welcome these signs and will do their best to contribute.
The hon. Gentleman the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), I gather, wishes us to throw overboard our allies of the Seven and go straight into the Common Market. All I would say about that is that there are important considerations, the whole question of the management of agricultural markets, the increased cost of living, Commonwealth entry, duties on raw materials, the fact that 86 per cent. of our trade is not with Common Market countries, and the co-ordination of the pay and the conditions of workers.
I gather that the hon. Gentleman rather mocks the idea of the question of supra-nationality as an important matter, but these are matters which have to be very carefully considered, though there would be no question of a lack of response on our part to the improved atmosphere.

1133
We have said with our allies in E.F.T.A. that we are willing to open negotiations with the Six as soon as they are prepared to do so. The Six met the other day and extended an invitation to the Seven to come to negotiate. We have no intention of throwing over our allies of the Seven, but in close consultation with them we shall try to work out a permanent and comprehensive solution of those difficulties.
I know that that may sound a very general observation, but I think the important thing about it is that we have got an improved atmosphere and that we are going to start these negotiations. They begin next month, in about ten days' time. Then I shall have an opportunity at Western European Union of meeting with the Foreign Ministers of the Six and, as I say, of getting with our allies in E.F.T.A. an opportunity for seeing whether we can work out the solution which I think there are increasing signs that both sides really want.
In conclusion, of course it has been a great disappointment, this result of the meeting in Paris. We worked very hard to get the meeting, and we worked very hard to prepare for it. We had literally dozens and dozens of meetings preparing for its work, and, of course, it is a disappointment that it did not take place. But wham, I think, we have got to do is to use the atmosphere created by this setback, not just to review our alliances and our relationships with the other countries of Western Europe, but also to bear in mind that those alliances are means to an end—a world where there will be the rule of law, where countries will work out their salvation free from interference from outside, where there will be disarmament under international control, and where the peoples can live in peace with one another. To achieve that end it is absolutely vital that we maintain the strength of our purpose to see that the differences between the nations are discussed and worked out in constructive negotiations.
9.58 p.m.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: I think that the Foreign Secretary has
1134
not told the House sufficient about the alert. How can it happen that the Secretary of State of the United States can order an alert and the British Government can know nothing about it Why cannot the Government take as strong an attitude as General de Gaulle and say that the bases in this country from which those planes go should not be in American hands? That is the real case against the Government.
My constituents believe that the American forces in this country and the American bases constitute at the present time a many-sided danger to the people of this country. [HON.MEMBERS: "0h"] Because of that, I want to state quite clearly that I take this opportunity of saying that there are a large number of people in this country who want to see the Opposition say quite clearly and strongly that the time has come when we should end dependence on the Americans; that the time has come when we should say to the Americans "Take these bases out of this country", just as General de Gaulle told the Americans to take their bases out of France.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Martin Redmayne): I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

STANDING ORDERS (PUBLIC BUSINESS)
Ordered
That the two Amendments to the Standing Order (Standing Committees (Constitution and powers)) relating to Public Business hereinafter stated in the Schedule be made.

SCHEDULE
Standing Order No. 57, line 8, after "be", insert "seventeen, or".
Standing Order No. 57, line 10, after "chairman", insert "whichever is the less;".—[Mr. R. A. Butler.]
Standing Orders relating to Public Business, as amended, and as they are to have effect for the remainder of the present Session, to be printed[No. 221.]

NIGHTWEAR (FLAME- RESISTANT MATERIALS)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Brooman-White.]
10.1 p.m.
Mr. George Craddock: On 3rd March last, I raised with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade the question of the number of accidents in the home arising from the wearing of inflammable clothing. On that occasion he indicated to me that this was a matter which was receiving serious consideration. He said that his right hon. Friend hoped that widespread use would be made of flame-resistant materials. That is an important statement, but it is also important that the Government should give full support where new fabrics are being discovered which make for safer use in the home.
A further question which I put to the hon. Gentleman was concerned with the Ministry's engaging in a publicity campaign to make known the non-flammable material that is available. Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman replied that there were certain characteristics about these treated fabrics which together with their prices created difficulties. It is important that I should now point out that this morning I received a letter from a lady who has two children aged two and three years. She says that she is finding great difficulty in obtaining nonflammable materials to make nightdresses for her children. She has written to the Cotton Board and also to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents and she has now been put in touch with Proban, which has promised to provide her within a few days with the length of material she requires.
We learn from the Press and on television of the mounting number of accidental deaths and of serious injury, some of them causing a lifetime of impaired health, as a result of the use of these materials. It is our belief that many of these cases could be avoided. In 1958, the British Safety Council carried out a survey and reported that on average 1,500 people died and over one million were injured by fire each year. More than half of the hospital cases are caused by accidents resulting from the wearing of inflammable clothing, and
1136
the majority of the victims are children. Eighty per cent. of the hospital cases suffer deep psychiatric as well as physical injury and 30 per cent. of these cases are children under five years of age.
The large figure of one million cases of injury includes slight injuries as well as major injuries. I would point out, however, that the difference between a minor burn and a serious one is very slender. A little girl may strike a match which burns her finger, with the result that she drops it on to the floor. In that case she is merely slightly burnt. But if that match had fallen on to her inflammable dress the result might have been very serious.
I have before me details of a case concerning a girl of nine, whose photograph was sent to every hon. Member a few weeks ago. No less than 31 per cent. of her skin was destroyed when her nightdress caught fire. The photograph was taken four days after the first grafting of strips from her own skin and the skin of her stepfather. Many more operations, over a number of years, will be necessary to deal with the injury.
In these days we must remember that there are many different ways of heating our homes. In the old days there was only coal, but we now have electric heaters, gas fires and oil stoves. Oil stoves can be moved about by almost any member of a family. They can be put into different rooms, and moved from point to point in such rooms. People entering a room may be unaware of the position of the stove at that moment and may cause a draught which makes the flame extend outside the guard.
I now turn to the Interim Report of the Committee on Consumer Protection, often referred to as the Molony Report. On page 8, the Committee reports:
"that the main victims were children under 14 and people over 65, two-thirds being females; that full skirted, loose garments presented a much greater risk than narrow or close-fitting ones; that fabrics with a flame-resistance rating below 150 could not be recommended as giving worthwhile protection."
Paragraph 32 refers to the fact that garments should not be bleached, and goes on to suggest that the present loophole which exists in the legislation should be removed, and paragraph 33 says that:
"there have been suggestions that the use of flame-resistant fabrics should be a statutory

1137
requirement, at any rate in certain forms of clothing, e.g., children's nightwear. The idea makes some appeal."
I therefore bring this to the attention of the House, as a matter of considerable importance.
I now turn to a report made by Proban Ltd. on 5th March. This report mentions that a new and improved flame-resistant finish has been developed by Proban Ltd., a firm consisting of the Bradford Dyers' Association and Albright and Wilson. The object of the exercise was to co-operate in a research programme aiming at the development of a process for imparting durable flame-resistance to textile materials. All it had was a nominal capital of £1,000. From 1954 to 1959 it suffered an accumulated loss of £136,000. In addition, the parent companies have spent a further £170,000 on research and full scale trials of textile machines. That makes a total loss of £306,000, and it is expected that they will spend a further £100,000 in the next two years. Now that the firm has reached the stage when cotton and winceyette can be processed so as to be non-flammable and safe for children to wear we should give it full marks for the exercise and the expense in which it has been involved.
It is important, in conclusion, to refer once again to the dangers of inflammable materials. Consumer Advisory Council representatives of the British Standards Institution took a trip to the shops in London a short time ago and bought fourteen different kinds of material—nylon, winceyette, cotton winceyette, cotton rayon, and so on.
It is extraordinary what happened as a result of applying the British Standards Institution test No. 3121, which defines fabrics of low flammability as those which either do not burn at all or burn so slowly that there is time to extinguish or remove the burning garment. Only the nylon clothes and the flame-proofed winceyette, the Proban fabric, passed the test. That was a surprising result. Let us see what happened to the other ten fabrics. The spun rayon took two second to ignite, and the flames reached the top of a 36-inch nightdress in three seconds. In another it took five seconds, in another eight seconds, and in another only ten seconds to envelope the nightdress. There was only one nightdress out
1138
of the ten that did not go up in flames in under twenty seconds.
Those are important facts which show the risks children and ladies run in the home. I hope that the Minister will give us some indication of what the Government intend to do. I ask the Minister to consider the independent tests which have been made and give Government backing for the labelling of safe materials. I hope that he will also consider enabling shops which sell these safety materials to put up the appropriate notices, and that the Board of Trade will assist in the advertising campaigns to see that the testing of these materials is kept up to standard.
10.14 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. John Rodgers): I would like to commend the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. George Craddock) on his choice of subject for this debate, and on the way in which he presented his case.
Fire accident is a topic on which much concern has lately been expressed in the Press and elsewhere, and rightly so. Far from seeking to play down any alarm which such statements may have created, I hope that what has been said here tonight will help to drive home to parents the grave dangers which can arise and the steps which they can take to reduce them.
All of us on both sides of the House approach this subject with a keen awareness of its importance and of the suffering and tragedy which are involved. I hope this short debate will do something to draw the attention of manufacturers and makers-up, retailers and the general public to the steps that can be taken to improve the present situation.
The latest figures available suggest that in 1958 between 80 and 90 children under 15, and two-and-a-half times as many old people, died as a result of burns by clothing in the home. There are no reliable statistics of non-fatal incidents, but I recall figures from a Birmingham hospital some years ago which suggested that for every one who dies, seventy, I think the figure was, are injured badly enough to require hospital treatment.
When I examine these statistics, I cannot help noticing two important features. In the first place, three-quarters of these

1139
child deaths arose from contact with a solid fuel, gas or electric fire of some kind, as the hon. Gentleman said. We can reasonably hope that there may be a steady improvement in this respect as the provisions of the Heating Appliances (Fireguards) Act, 1952, become felt. On that, the Government have done what they can. What we cannot do is stand over every parent in the home and force him to buy, maintain and faithfully use a proper fireguard, but it is little enough to ask of a parent who cares for his child's life.
The second significant fact that emerges from the statistics is that deaths of girls outnumber those of boys by more than four to one. For this, it seems to me, there are two possible explanations: that little girls are more likely than little boys to gaze into that still too prevalent menace, the looking-glass over the fireplace—and that they wear skirts which swirl into the flames, instead of trousers. Here again, parents—and this is something that must be in their hands alone—could make a really significant improvement if they dressed their young daughters in pyjamas rather than in nightdresses, and if they only took down the mirror over the fireplace.
Last year, following a great deal of careful study by the British Standards Institution and elsewhere, we specified in the Fabrics (Misdescription) Regulations, minimum requirements for fabrics claiming to be flame-proof or flame resistant. Now there are certain textile fabrics which, in their natural state, seem able to meet these requirements. I understand that the heavier woollen fabrics, nylon, Terylene and perhaps one or two others, may do so.
But I must add that this is not necessarily so if there is a blend or a trimming of other fabrics, and it may not be so if certain finishes are applied. Unfortunately, these are not materials which parents usually choose for their children's nightwear. A leading firm in the man-made fibre field has been conducting research and now have on test a fibre which, I understand, is highly flame resistant. They expect to have it on the market in a year if the tests prove successful, and they claim that it would revolutionise the whole problem of providing flame resistant clothing. Cottons and rayons—and I am talking now of
1140
the range which includes winceyettes, probably the first choice of parents—are a lesser fire risk if they are given one of the chemical treatments now available.
As the hon. Gentleman said, the Molony Committee referred to the problem of flammable clothing materials in its interim report (paragraphs 28–34) which has now been presented to Parliament. This report reminds us that present legislation on the subject is confined to the Fabrics (Misdescription) Act, 1913, with Regulations made thereunder in 1959. This makes it an offence to attribute the quality of flame-proofness or flame resistance to a fabric or garment which does not reach the prescribed standard in that respect.
The Committee considered the suggestion that the use of flame-resistant fabrics should be a statutory requirement, at any rate in certain forms of cloth; for example, children's nightwear, the point which the hon. Member is making tonight. What the hon. Gentleman did not say was that they were, however, unable to recommend compulsion at this stage.
There are, to my knowledge, three processes available which can render certain fabrics flame resistant to the degree specified in the Fabrics (Misdescription) Regulations. The companies concerned have, I am told, devoted a great deal of time and large sums of money to their development, and, it is only fair to add, have done so without any great response from the buying public. Materials treated by these processes have been handled by various retailers in a manner which should have proved a fair test of demand.
But what happened? Did parents rush in to buy? Alas, no. The public response was bitterly disappointing—"negligible" is the only word to describe it. Why was this so? We are told that it was to be explained by one or both of these reasons: that the treatment made the cloth hard or harsh to the touch or that the treated fabrics were more expensive.
It has to be admitted that an unfortunate side effect of the treatment has been to impair the "handle" of the cloth and rightly or wrongly parents may well have been tempted to prefer the softer untreated material for contact with a child's tender skin.

1141
But I understand that there has now been a further technical development, at least in one of the processes, Proban, which they claim virtually eliminates the adverse effect on handle. I hope that this is so, if it is, then there remains only the question of price. My information is that what the processes add to the cost of, say, a nightgown for a small child is approximately the price of twenty cigarettes. I noticed a headline in one of the London evening papers the week before last, "Is four shillings too much for safety?" I ask the question, "Is it?" Are we to think that the parents of this country set no higher value than that upon their own children's lives? I find it hard to believe. Only those who do not appreciate the dangers could begrudge this expense.
Our task, therefore, is to educate—to conduct a propaganda campaign, if hon. Members will—and here I agree with the hon. Member for Bradford, South. But it is difficult to coerce people. Now why is this? If we were to contemplate compulsion and the banning of the sale of garments, we could not extend it to fabrics that would be made up at home. I hope the hon. Member agrees.
I turn now to the question of publicity. This is where the task lies. I am glad to see that in recent months the Press, T.V. and radio have been doing a great deal to that end. I hope that they will keep plugging away at the theme, for what people find week after week in the columns of the papers or on their screens is more likely to make a real and lasting impact than anything else.
This is a case in which, as much as in any other, I should dearly like to see some way in which we, the Government could help, instead of standing on the sidelines and cheering others on. There have, indeed, been suggestions that tax- payers' money should be spent on an advertising campaign to persuade people to ask for fabrics which are either naturally flame-proof, or flame resistant, or have been rendered so by one of the commercial processes now available.
Frankly, I must say that I do not think that this is a right purpose for the spending of the taxpayers' money. But I am very attracted by the idea of a special campaign warning mothers of the dangers and appraising them of the availability of these new finishes and
1142
possibly new fibres which may come on to the market.
I think we are all agreed that some educative and sustained publicity would be very valuable. The only difference between us is whether this should be undertaken by the taxpayer or by those who ultimately hope to profit by the exercise, namely, the makers of the fibres, the makers-up of the garments and the distributors who sell the children's nightwear in the shops.
I hope that one of the results of this debate tonight will be that all concerned will seriously consider the possibility of such a campaign or campaigns, but, of course, to be effective it is essential that these garments should be stocked widely so that when the mother is buying nightwear for her children she can easily purchase garments which have been treated with a flame-resistant finish.
I should like to suggest in no partisan spirit that the hon. Member might use his great influence with the Co-operative movement and the big retail stores to give a lead towards stocking flame-proof children's nightwear, possibly to the exclusion of the non-flame-proof pyjamas and nightgowns. I hope that they will also consider advertising to draw their customers' attention to the availability of this merchandise.
For the last ten years a large chain store whose name is a household word have not sold cotton nightdresses for children but only pyjamas on the grounds that accident statistics have shown that nightdresses of a fast-burning fabric are too dangerous. They have sold brushed nylon nightdresses with some success. After having tried and rejected a number of chemical treatments for cotton fabrics, they are now of the opinion that Proban's latest process is satisfactory from both the safety and "fabric handle" angles. They have placed an order for several thousand yards of treated fabric and hope to have nightdresses made from it on sale before long.
I now came to another suggestion, that we ought to know more about the composition and performance of goods that are offered on sale, particularly in the field of flame-proofness and flame resistance. This part of what is called "informative labelling" is another matter which the Molony Committee is to consider. I

1143
shall, therefore, make a point of asking it that when it has the problem of informative labelling before it, the Committee will take into account the particular suggestions which have been made tonight to see whether any special steps are required to mark such merchandise as being flame-proofed or not. I also hope that the Committee will consider whether this should be incorported in the sewn-on label and not merely stated on the swing ticket. This consideration should also include whether or not flame-proofed material should be dry-cleaned. This should be stated.
There is no question that the subject of our debate is supremely important, from many aspects. I earnestly believe that the debate we have had tonight will help to make all those concerned more aware of the dangers and possible methods of overcoming them. If at any time, possibly after the Committee on Consumer Protection has reported, we at the Board of Trade see any way of furthering the efforts that are now being made to produce suitable materials and get them into use I can assure the House that we shall not hesitate to take any steps which may be required.
Mr. George Darling: The hon. Member said that in his view it is not right to spend the taxpayers' money on a Government-backed publicity campaign to tell parents and shoppers what they ought to look for when they are buying. Will he take into consideration that the hospital treatment and everything associated with the treatment of children or adults when they are burned is a charge upon public funds and part of the charge for the National Health Service? The savings which we obtained would therefore be of great value to the taxpayer. A little of the
1144
taxpayers' money—looked at purely from this material aspect—spent on a Government-backed publicity campaign of this kind would be money very well spent.
Mr. Rodgers: I appreciate that if we could, by one way or another, induce all parents to buy flame-resistant finishes on their children's nightwear the risk of fire accidents would be lessened and there would, therefore, be fewer calls on the hospital services. I thoroughly agree with the hon. Member on that. Nevertheless I still think that it is not for the Government to embark on such a campaign. I hope that the publicity given to our debate tonight will help. I hope that it will be given good publicity in the Press and will do something to draw parents' attention to the fact that these processes such as Proban are available and that certain large stores are about to stock nightwear which is reasonably safe.
Having got that message across, I hope that the stores and the makers-up will stress this feature in their advertisements —for most of these firms already undertake advertising campaigns—and that they will stress it continuously in their publicity. A continuous campaign is required, not just one statement but a campaign year in and year out. We must hammer it home until it is accepted by the public not only that these fabrics are available but that they are available in most of the shops throughout the length and breadth of the country. Nevertheless, I still think that it is not something on which the Government ought to spend money. On the other hand, we are extremely sympathetic, and I very much appreciate the point which the hon. Member has made.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-seven minutes past Ten o'clock.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Food Standards Committee (Membership)
  Food Standards Committee (Membership)
  Potatoes
  Potatoes
  Swine Fever
  Swine Fever
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  National Assistance
  National Assistance
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (STATE OF READINESS)
  ROYAL AIR FORCE (STATE OF READINESS)
  UNITED STATES AIR BASES, UNITED KINGDOM (ALERT)
  UNITED STATES AIR BASES, UNITED KINGDOM (ALERT)
  UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES
  UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  Blue Steel
  Blue Steel
  Navigation (Hyperbolic Area Coverage System)
  Navigation (Hyperbolic Area Coverage System)
  Skybolt
  Skybolt
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Invalid Carriages
  Invalid Carriages
  General Practitioners (Emergency Night Call Services)
  General Practitioners (Emergency Night Call Services)
HOSPITALS
  Dermatology and Physiotherapy (Swindon)
  Dermatology and Physiotherapy (Swindon)
  Casualty Wards (Injured Persons)
  Casualty Wards (Injured Persons)
  Wythenshawe Hospital
  Wythenshawe Hospital
  South Ockendon Hospital (New Villas)
  South Ockendon Hospital (New Villas)
  Burns (Emergency Treatment)
  Burns (Emergency Treatment)
  Langthorne Hospital
  Langthorne Hospital
  Nurses (Recruitment)
  Nurses (Recruitment)
  Princess Margaret Hospital, Swindon
  Princess Margaret Hospital, Swindon
  SOUTH WEST AFRICA (UNITED NATIONS COMMITTEE)
  SOUTH WEST AFRICA (UNITED NATIONS COMMITTEE)
  FISHERY LIMITS
  FISHERY LIMITS
  FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICERS
  FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICERS
  CENTRAL TREATY ORGANISATION (TURKEY AND IRAN)
  CENTRAL TREATY ORGANISATION (TURKEY AND IRAN)
EMPLOYMENT
  Aircraft and Radio Industries
  Aircraft and Radio Industries
  Feltham and Hounslow
  Feltham and Hounslow
  Commonwealth Technical Training Week
  Commonwealth Technical Training Week
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Government of Ireland Act, 1920
  Government of Ireland Act, 1920
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Superphosphates and Basic Slag (Duty)
  Superphosphates and Basic Slag (Duty)
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  United States Service Aircraft (Flight Plans)
  United States Service Aircraft (Flight Plans)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Animal Drugs and Medicine (Purchase Tax)
  Animal Drugs and Medicine (Purchase Tax)
  Inland Revenue Office, Morpeth
  Inland Revenue Office, Morpeth
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Colliery Spoil Heaps, Northumberland
  Colliery Spoil Heaps, Northumberland
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Kiosks, Outer Hebrides
  Kiosks, Outer Hebrides
TRANSPORT
  British Transport Commission (Advisory Group)
  British Transport Commission (Advisory Group)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Manchester

POST OFFICE CABLE AND WIRELESS SERVICES
LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that the Cable and Wireless Cable Company are now refusing to accept cablegrams other than at full rates, either inwards or outwards; that the cancellation of the letter-telegram service is a serious matter for commercial users in this country and the public generally; and whether it is true that there is a dispute existing between the operatives of the Cable Company and the Postmaster-General, and, if so, what is the nature of the dispute, and when it is likely to be resolved.]
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, my right honourable friend greatly regrets the inconvenience caused by the present restrictions on overseas telegraph services. These
2
services are operated by the Post Office and Cable and Wireless Limited are not concerned. The present difficulties have arisen because a substantial proportion of the staff at Electra House, the main operating centre of the Post Office Cable and Wireless services in London, imposed a ban on overtime working. There was already a shortage of staff, and these two things taken together made it impossible for my right honourable friend to maintain the full range of overseas telegraph services.
It was clearly necessary to keep the full rate and urgent rate traffic moving, and my right honourable friend had no alternative but to suspend the letter telegram service. He will restore this as soon as a satisfactory service can be offered, but is very sorry that he cannot yet say when he will be able to do so.
LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that full reply, may I say that our cable service is not only a domestic concern, but is an international service, and our reputation is involved here. We in this country have always been proud of our cable service—users and cable staff alike—and I would ask the noble Lord whether nothing can be done by way of a special inquiry into the existing dispute between the staff and the Postmaster General in order to achieve an early settlement.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am well aware of the international importance of this matter, and, indeed, it emphasises the necessity for maintaining the full rate and the urgent rate, because the

3
letter telegram rate is, of course, a concessionary service at a concessionary rate. The full rate and the urgent rate are obligatory under international agreement and must be kept up at all costs. So far as the solution of this unfortunate occurrence is concerned, I can assure the noble Lord that nothing is being spared to bring it to an early end and to restore the service.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, overtime has not been banned by the men for nothing. Cannot the noble Lord say something, of the nature of the dispute, how long it has been going on and what is being actively done to end it?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, this overtime ban was imposed as the result of a dispute involving the recognition of a new and additional staff association. The overtime ban is not at the moment operative. The backlog of work as a result of that ban is being dealt with, and negotiations, into which the noble Lord will not expect me to go, are going on, which we hope will prove successful and mean that the trouble will soon end.

CHELSEA FLOWER SHOW AND PARKED VEHICLES
LORD COLWYN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government by what right the Metropolitan Police issued notices to house and flat occupiers in Chelsea warning them that during the period of the Chelsea Flower Show any vehicle left in the street would be liable to removal by the police.]
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, under the powers conferred by Section 52 of the Metropolitan Police Act, 1839, the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis directed that, for the duration of the Chelsea Flower Show, parking of vehicles should be prohibited in certain streets and permitted on one side only in certain other streets. Vehicles parked in contravention of these restrictions were liable to be removed from the streets by the police under powers conferred by the
4
Removal of Vehicles (England and Wales) Regulations, 1957. Notices giving warning of these arrangements were distributed in advance to residents and vehicle owners in the streets in which parking was to be prohibited. These same notices were also distributed by mistake in some of the streets in which parking on one side only was to be permitted, and in these cases the advice given was not altogether appropriate. The Commissioner very much regrets any inconvenience that may have been caused.
LORD COLWYN: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply, but there is one point I should like to bring up. He is entirely right in what he says—that certain streets have not got parking restrictions. Therefore, what we, as householders, assumed from this, was that we had to take our cars and park them elsewhere, and the Chelsea Flower Show cars came in their place. I should like to suggest—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
LORD COLWYN: May I ask that Royal Avenue, which I believe is Crown property, should during the Chelsea Flower Show take an average per day of 300 to 400 cars at a nominal charge of 2s. 6d. to 3s. each, which should go to the Royal Hospital? At the present moment Royal Avenue is used solely as a promenade for dogs—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
LORD COLWYN: —and not as a car park.
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that outside the Victoria Hospital for Children, of whose Committee I am a member, doctors were not allowed to park their cars, and one car which was parked there belonging to a doctor who was carrying out an operation was towed away? Could the noble Earl try to see his right honourable friend regarding legislation to enable bona fide doctors' cars to be parked outside their hospital?
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I was not aware of that, but I do not think that the noble Lord's question has any relationship to the Question asked by his noble friend.

ARMY RECRUITMENT
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of the decline in recruitment for the Army making it unlikely that the Army will be able to fulfil its commitments, what steps they are taking to deal with the situation.]
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I do not accept the premise of the Question. Any fall in numbers must be a mutter for concern; but the recent slight decline follows two years of very good recruiting and there is no reason to suppose that plans for an all-Regular Army may not be fulfilled.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he is aware that, according to the latest figures in the Printed Paper Office issued by the Minister of Defence, the Regular other ranks strength on April 1, 1960, was 138,400, as compared to a similar strength on April 1, 1959, of 149,961; and whether this decline of 11,561 in the Regular other ranks strength of the Army does not fill him with some foreboding?
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: Yes, my Lords, I am aware of the difficulties, but I think we must take this matter in due proportion. All these figures are seriously and constantly under review, and I do not think at the moment that we need be unduly worried by the slight fall at this particular period. Naturally the noble Lord knows the figures we set as the target, and I think they will be achieved. If the noble Lord is worried, which he seems to be, at there being any possible chance of reintroducing conscription after 1962, I think I can put his mind at rest. That is not in any way in the Government's mind at the moment.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, the first question which occurs to most of our minds on this matter is, will the strength of the Army be sufficient to cover our commitments and give the proper security? If you are down to a strength of 138,000, would it not be true that, allowing first
6
for the units which are composed of new recruits in training, and allowing for the interchange of stations and the like, you might seriously be endangering the security of your commitments? Therefore, the figure seems to me to be fantastically low in relation to what would have to be provided, even by a voluntary force.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I think we should all agree, whichever side of the House happened to be in charge of the Government, that we would never allow our security to go to a danger point.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that if the Army is being run down like this it imposes an enormous burden upon commanding officers of battalions and batteries—and they are the important people who have to "carry the can", and not the War Office. Does the noble Earl not think it is time the Government took this matter far more seriously than they appear to be doing?
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: Yes, my Lords, I can answer the noble Lord. Having commanded three regiments in my time, I know the wear and tear on commanding officers. From the information I have, I feel that my successors will not be unduly worried.

RADIO RECEPTION IN LANCASTER-MORECAMBE AREA
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will represent to the British Broadcasting Corporation that the district including Lancaster, Morecambe and Barrow-in-Furness is a fringe area for radio signals and whether they will consider the provision of V.H.F. satellite stations there, in addition to the satellite television stations which they announced last June they would provide in the Lancaster-Barrow-in-Furness areas.]
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the B.B.C. are mindful of the need for improvement in V.H.F. sound reception,

7
particularly in the Lancaster-More-cambe area. They will consider whether something can be done to improve V.H.F. sound reception in this area in a later stage of their satellite scheme.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that successive Postmaster Generals, for the last fifteen years, have been made aware of the deficiency in this district and have, if not promised, at any rate held out some hopes that remedies would be found; and will he impress upon the Post Office that the remedy is overdue?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I shall be delighted to pass on the words of my noble friend. I would only remind him that the B.B.C. are engaged in a considerable programme of improvement of both the television and the V.H.F. stations all over the country, and they hope to fit this in when they can. I would add, if this seems to indicate some delay, that they are contemplating a further programme of very low-power satellite stations in individual towns with particularly bad reception although they are not yet able to say when they can do anything for these particular towns in that respect.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: I thank my noble friend.

ROYAL EXCHANGE ASSURANCE BILL
Read 3a, and passed.
UNIVERSITY OF BRISTOL BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
2.48 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, in moving the Motion which stands in my name on the Order Paper,
8
I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to the Notice about to-day's Business which was circulated by the Table last Friday. It is proposed, if your Lordships agree, to take the Second Reading of the Professions Supplementary to Medicine Bill, which now stands as first Business on the Paper, after the Report of Amendments to the Administration of Justice Bill. This is to enable the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simonds, to speak on the Professions Supplementary to Medicine Bill which he would otherwise be unable to do, since he is sitting in the Appellate Committee upstairs until four o'clock. I hope your Lordships will agree to that change. I beg to move.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 35 be suspended until the House adjourns for the Recess at Whitsun for the purpose of giving Government Business (except with the consent of the Government) precedence over other Notices and Orders of the Day, and that Standing Order No. 41 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be suspended for the aforesaid period.—(The Earl of Home.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

GAME LAWS (AMENDMENT) BILL
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
NOISE ABATEMENT BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
OIL BURNERS (STANDARDS) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1aa, and to be printed.
ROAD TRAFFIC (AMENDMENT) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

CLEAN RIVERS (ESTUARIES AND TIDAL WATERS) BILL
2.50 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Balfour of Inchrye.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair]
Clause 1 [Extension of s. 7 of Act of 1951 to tidal waters]:
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE moved, after subsection (4) to insert:
"( ) Section fifteen of the River Boards Act, 1948 (which relates to the taking by a river board of samples of effluents passing into waters in their area) shall apply in relation to any controlled waters adjoining a river board area as if those waters were included in that area, whether or not those waters also adjoin any other such area".
The noble Lord said: I beg to move the first Amendment, which is one of those borderline Amendments—almost a drafting one, but not quite. So your Lordships are entitled to an explanation of its purpose. The purpose of the Amendment is to ensure that in dealing with discharges into tidal waters river boards have the same powers as they at present enjoy in respect of non-tidal waters over which they have jurisdiction. It may well be that in tidal waters the discharge of effluent starts in a place which is within the area of a river board but finishes in an area of tidal water which belongs not to that particular river board but to another. This Amendment will enable the river board to have sampling powers at the discharge end of the effluent which is going into the tidal waters, even though the area in which that discharge takes place is not the particular area of the river board where the discharge originates but is the area of another river board. I beg to move—
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 17, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Balfour of Inchrye.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: This Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 18, leave out ("subsections (1) and (2)") and insert ("the foregoing provisions").—(Lord Balfour of Inchrye.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD AIREDALE LORD AIREDALE moved, after subsection (5) to insert:
"( ) Before granting their consent under the said section seven to the bringing into use of a new or altered outlet for the discharge of trade or sewage effluent or the making of a new discharge of trade or sewage effluent into controlled waters within the sea fisheries district of a local fisheries committee, the river board shall consult with the local fisheries committee and shall not grant their consent without the approval of the local fisheries committee or shall impose such conditions as the local fisheries committee may require:
Provided that if within thirty days from the date of the rim consultation the river board and the local fisheries committee fail to agree as to whether consent should be granted or as to what, if any, conditions should be attached to the consent, the question shall be referred to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food who, after considering any representations by the parties to the disagreement, shall determine whether or not the consent shall be granted and, if so, what conditions, if any, shall be attached thereto.
( ) In this section the expressions 'local fisheries committee' and 'sea fisheries district' mean respectively a local fisheries committee constituted, and a sea fisheries district created, in accordance with the provisions of the Sea Fisheries Regulation Act, 1888, as amended by the Sea Fish Industry Act, 1938."
The noble Lord said: I must first say that the noble Viscount, Lord Brentford, in whose name also this Amendment stands, is unavoidably prevented from feeing in his place this afternoon.
The reason for the Amendment arises in this way. The river boards, a comparatively young statutory body (they have been in existence, I think, only since 1948), are now to have their powers of control extended from non-tidal waters to include tidal waters. Tidal waters have, of course, been very much under the control of the sea fisheries committees, which are much older statutory bodies: they have been in existence since 1888. It seems wrong in principle that one statutory body should be given power to exercise control over a territory which is very much the province of another and very much older statutory body without being required at least to

11
consult and to get the consent of the older statutory body for whatever it is that the newer body seeks to permit. For that reason it is sought by this Amendment to require the river boards to consult and to obtain the consent of the sea fisheries committees over any matter concerning effluents which may have been detrimental to the interests of the sea fisheries committees in the tidal parts of the rivers.
Furthermore, this Amendment would enable the sea fisheries committees in certain cases to stamp out and prevent the damage before it was done, instead of waiting—as at present they have to do—for damage to be done and then exercising their powers of prosecution. Thirdly, it is felt that even those powers of prosecution of the sea fisheries committees would be substantially reduced without an Amendment of this kind being carried, because it might well be that a skilful defendant, upon being prosecuted by the sea fisheries committees, would be able to play off one body against another by brandishing before the court, in mitigation of the offence for which he was prosecuted, the consent that he had obtained from the river board in question. It might well be that the courts would be impressed with his arguments and in the knowledge that he had obtained a river board's consent before proceeding would not give as much weight to, or treat as seriously, the offence for which he was being prosecuted by the sea fisheries committee. For those main reasons I beg to move this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 13, at end insert the said subsections.—(Lord Airedale.)
LORD GREENHILL: In the absence of my noble friend Lord Latham, who would have supported this Amendment had he been present, I take upon myself partly at his request to support the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Airedale. I have little to add to what the noble Lord has said, except this: all that is being asked in this Amendment is that one body should not dominate the other body; that where action becomes necessary the two bodies will consult, and that if, by any chance, they cannot agree as a result of their consultation the matter shall be referred
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to the Minister in charge. I think that is a correct reading of this Amendment, which I beg to support.
LORD SALTOUN: I have been asked to say a word in support of this Amendment. I do not want to add very much to what has been said very ably from the other two sections of the House; but, speaking as somebody who has steadily and sadly watched during the course of his life the deterioration of our coastal fishing, I think there is a great deal to be said for this Amendment. Moreover, there is this point that I think is important: that if people are to have their livelihood interfered with it is reasonable to refer the matter to the Minister himself. That is going to the highest quarter to get a decision, and I think these committees should have the right to do that.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I am afraid that I cannot accept this Amendment, but I hope that by the time I have finished in a few moments the noble Lord, Lord Airedale may agree that it is neither correct in form nor necessary in effect. First, it seems to me that there are three objections to the Amendment in the way it is put on the Order Paper. The first is that it lays down statutory consultation, which it is not desirable to put in an Act of Parliament, for reasons which I think your Lordships well know; and it would certainly be a request duplicated, triplicated and quadruplicated by any and many other interests who considered themselves affected directly or indirectly by such proposals as are contained in this Bill and would of course, if those consultation had to take place, virtually clog the machinery for getting our rivers cleaner.
The second point is that the Amendment says that the approval of the Minister of Agriculture must be obtained before any consent is given by the river board; that the Minister of Agriculture shall have power to impose conditions as regards that consent, and that in the event of a difference between the river board and the sea fisheries committee it shall be the Minister of Agriculture who gives the final consent. I cannot help feeling that the Amendment has been drafted without regard to Section 7 of the 1951 Act, which confers on an applicant for a consent which is refused by the river board a right of appeal to

13
the Minister of Housing and Local Government. The Amendment as drafted might well allow the sea fisheries committee to appeal to the Minister of Agriculture to direct the river board to refuse a consent, while the applicant would then appeal to the Minister of Housing and Local Government against such refusal. That is an absurd position.
But the Amendment, I think, is to be resisted not only on those particular grounds, but also upon general grounds. The noble Lord, Lord Airedale, said that the Amendment would allow the sea fisheries committee to prevent any damage occurring. This Bill does not permit any injury to sea fisheries which could not take place at the present time. All the Amendment does is to give an additional safeguard against damage to the sea fisheries. The sea fisheries' rights are all preserved. The only effect of the Bill is to add a safeguard against damage before it occurs—in fact, the Bill is going to do the very thing which the noble Lord wants done. It will, for the first time, enable the sea fisheries committee areas to be, as it were, restricted as regards pollution. At the present time the powers of the sea fishery committee are limited to prosecution after the event. If the Bill passes in its present form the sea fisheries committees will in future be safeguarded to a much greater extent than at present, in that there can be no pollution in their area unless the river board consent has been obtained.
I understand that there is not complete unanimity among sea fishery committees on the proposal put forward by the noble Lord in his Amendment; in fact, I am given to understand that the Eastern Sea Fisheries Committee, which includes the important town of Lowestoft, differ somewhat from the views expressed by my noble friend Lord Airedale. Equally, it seems to me to be rather "shadow boxing", if I may say so, for I understand that no sea fishery committee has entered any objection at any inquiry which has so far taken place—and there have been several inquiries, and five permits given—for the expansion of river board powers to tidal waters under the procedure of Section 6 of the 1951 Act. Why they did not object then but come forward now, it is somewhat difficult to understand.
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If the sea fisheries committees feel that their interests need representation on river boards, then that is a different issue and not one for this Bill to-day. This Bill is to prevent more dirt and filth from going into our rivers and sea waters. If it is a question that sea fisheries committees feel that they should have a greater say, then that is a different issue and a matter of the constitution of the river boards, which no doubt will be considered by Her Majesty's Government, possibly when future legislation takes place as a result of the Armer and Bledisloe Committees' Reports. But I submit to your Lordships that this is not an issue to-day. This is not a Bill for the constitution of river boards, but a Bill for cleaner waters.
However, I always want to try to meet any case put forward, and I am sympathetic to the views expressed by the noble Lord. May I suggest that the noble Lord is not really on sound grounds when he says that, in the event of a prosecution by the sea fisheries committees, it would be a powerful defence if the body prosecuted were able to say, "We have a consent from the river board," because that does not happen in town planning. When town planning permission is given it does not override the local by-laws. But let us try to meet that point, and let us ask the Minister whether he will agree to request the river boards to inform any applicant for a discharge into tidal waters, when such application is granted, that the granting of the application in no way gives any immunity from prosecution by the sea fisheries committee. Give it in a red notice, if you like, or some such specific notice. I think that might meet that point.
The second suggestion I make to the noble Lord is that there should be from the Minister, if he would consider it, an administrative request to the river boards to keep the sea fisheries committees informed in respect of any consents they are giving. The third suggestion I make is one for which I have no power at all, but I put it forward to your Lordships, and no doubt Her Majesty's Government will take note of it. It is this: that as and when legislation is introduced to implement the Armer and Bledisloe Committees' Reports, inevitably the constitution of river boards must be reviewed, and that seems to me to be the

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appropriate time to consider whether sea fisheries committees should or should not have representation upon river boards.
I hope that the noble Lord will consider those three points which I have suggested: first, that we ask the Minister to request the river boards to give notice that grant of consent gives no immunity from prosecution; secondly, that he should issue a request that, administratively, the river boards and sea fisheries committees should work together, as in fact they do in many ways; and thirdly, that the noble Lord and I join in the hope that Her Majesty's Government will introduce legislation, and will consider, on its merits, the question of giving the sea fisheries committees representation on river boards. With those three hopes, I trust that the noble Lord will feel that I have gone some way to meet his point of view, even though I cannot accept his Amendment.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I should like to be allowed to say a word in support of the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye. These two bodies, the sea fisheries committee and the river board, are approaching the problem from the same point of view—namely, clean water. Therefore, inasmuch as they are in harmony, I should have thought that the suggestions made by the noble Lord who is in charge of the Bill amply cover the case. The objection to the Amendment is a strong one—namely, that it makes for delay. This is an extremely urgent question. I mentioned in a debate previously the increasing pressure of people to the riversides, which creates possible pollution. Therefore, I would hope that the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, in the light of what the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye said, will see fit to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD AIREDALE: I am greatly obliged for the views that noble Lords have expressed, and I am considerably encouraged by the three ways in which the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye is proposing to meet the difficulties that I have put forward. I cannot quite, I think, agree that an administrative request for consultation is quite so good as a compulsory consultation, although I concede that in certain cases
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it may lead to a friendlier and perhaps more profitable consultation. I am most grateful for the points the noble Lord made, and am delighted to hear that there is at least some likelihood that in due course sea fisheries committees, with their wealth of experience in tidal waters, may have representation upon the river boards when the river boards enter this, to them, new territory—what I might call "tidal water territory".
Finally, I am consoled over my fear of what I would call the "playing off" of one statutory body against another by the fact that it has been made abundantly clear by the noble Lord that, whenever permission is granted by a river board, it will be made quite clear to the person receiving permission that it is given without prejudice to the existing powers of the sea fisheries committees. I am grateful to the noble Lord for those three assurances and, in the light of them, I beg leave of the Committee to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.11 p.m.
VISCOUNT SIMON VISCOUNT SIMON moved, after subsection (5) to insert:
"( ) A river board shall upon receiving an application under the said section seven and before varying or revoking any conditions pursuant to subsection (5) of the said section seven send to any interested authority a notice containing all relevant particulars and before giving their consent or varying or revoking the conditions the river board shall take into account any representations made to them by an interested authority within twenty-eight days from the receipt by that authority of the relevant particulars.
( ) In this section:—
'interested authority' means a harbour or conservancy authority having jurisdiction over any harbour or tidal waters into which any outlet for trade or sewage effluent discharges or into which any such proposed outlet would discharge;
'harbour', 'harbour authority' and 'conservancy authority' have the meanings given to those expressions by section seven hundred and forty-two of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894."
The noble Viscount said: I believe the intention of this Amendment is quite clear. It is to provide that when an application is made to a river board in connection with a discharge into tidal waters which form part of waters controlled by a port authority, the authority shall be informed of the application and given a little time—28 days—in which to make any objection they may wish

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to make. When I intervened on the Second Reading of this Bill, I wanted a good deal more than that—to bring the port authorities, who have a very real interest in this matter, into the decisions which have to be taken; but I do not think my advocacy was very successful. It did not move the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, and I got the impression that it did not move the House generally.
I come now with a very modest request—one much more modest than that of the noble Lord, Lord Airedale. I am merely asking that harbour authorities, who are deeply concerned with these matters, should be informed when an application is made; and I do not see that any difficulty can arise in complying with that request. When this Bill was being debated in another place it was said that it would depend wholly on co-operation between the authorities concerned; and Members of the Committee may remember that on Second Reading I quoted what was said by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government. He was a little against the Bill and in fact argued that at that time it would be necessary to have consultation with port authorities in appropriate cases.
The honourable Member who brought the Bill into another place said the same thing: that it was desirable that there should be consultations with port authorities. But I am not asking in this Amendment for consultation; I am merely asking that notice should be given to port authorities in appropriate cases so that those authorities, if they have a point to raise (though I imagine that in cost cases they will have nothing to say), will have an opportunity of raising it, so that a decision will not be taken without their knowledge. I make so bold as to suggest at this stage that the fisheries committees, who have been unable to get the Amendment for which they asked, may like to support this Amendment, whereby notice of application would be given to interested parties, so that those parties may have an opportunity of commenting upon it if they wish. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 13, at end insert the said subsections.—(Viscount Simon.)
LORD BURDEN: I sincerely trust that my noble friend, Lord Balfour of Inch-rye, will approach this Amendment in the same kindly, understanding, and, I believe, sympathetic spirit in which he approached the previous Amendment. We on this side, as well as the majority of noble Lords on the other side, being deeply concerned and interested that this Bill shall become law, would not do anything to hamper its progress. I know that the most strenuous efforts have been made to ensure that this Amendment should not weaken the Bill, and it was hoped that it would be acceptable to the noble Lord who has done so well in introducing the Bill to your Lordships' House.
As has been pointed out, the Amendment takes away from the river boards no authority whatsoever. As it is drafted, the final word must, and should, rest with the river boards. All that is asked is that before a decision is reached the appropriate authority that has powers at the present time should be notified and that the river board should consider anything which the appropriate authority, as defined, might think fit to submit to them. I would repeat that the final word will be with the river board. There is no provision for an appeal or anything of that kind, and I hope, therefore, that in the circumstances this Amendment may be acceptable.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: Of course I approach this Amendment in as kindly a spirit as I would approach any other. Certainly the persuasive powers of the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, were deployed to the full, but he did not say what was the real and true effect of this Amendment. I believe that the Amendment is unnecessary, because in any case river boards will consult, and obviously the right honourable gentleman the Minister will tell them that it is their duty so to do. But it is not appropriate to lay down by Statute that such consultation must take place, because that would at once put dock and harbour authorities in a privileged position, to harass the river boards, whose need is for rapid action.
Let me say, on the first point, that consultations will take place. If I may say so, it is very much "shadow boxing" to express the fear that there will be differences. At present there are many

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miles of non-tidal waters in this country under the dock and harbour boards as regards powers for navigation. I am informed by the Severn River Board that there are many miles in their area which are under the British Transport Commission; and as long ago as 1952 a friendly arrangement was reached between that particular dock and harbour authority and that river board whereby each authority undertook to tell any applicant that, the application needed two consents. There was also an agreement for an interchange of views. That has worked perfectly well, and I have not the slightest doubt that this will work perfectly well in the future.
I believe that this Amendment is unnecessary because if dock and harbour authorities have their own powers then, as the noble Viscount, Lord Simon admits, there is no need for the provision in the Bill; and if there is a dock and harbour authority with no powers, then this Bill is all gain to them. I submit that they can have no case for harassing river boards with advice. The noble Viscount said the period would be just 28 days, but I believe that the effect would be serious, because the Amendment would endanger what I would term the three-months period laid down in Section 7 of the main Act, which says that if the river board fail to notify an applicant of consent of their decision within three months then the unconditional assent of the river board is to be assumed.
The Amendment of my noble friend Lord Simon requires a river board to submit "all relevant particulars". That is very vague, but we must assume that it includes the particulars the river board have received from the applicant. These are usually received in a very unsatisfactory state: there is much toing and fro-ing before the proper information can be obtained from any applicant; and much time is involved there. Also, it would entail the conveying to the harbour authority of the provisional decision of the river board. Then, after all this, the river board would have to wait 28 days for the dock and harbour representations and reconsider the matter in the light of such representations. Meanwhile, dirt and filth are pouring out, and the whole purpose of the Bill is being lost.
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Supposing that the sea fisheries committee (as my noble friend Lord Simon temptingly held out to the noble Lord, Lord Airedale) obtained similar rights; and supposing that various other interested bodies came along and said, "We also want a statutory requirement for consultation," nothing would be done. I would ask my noble friend Lord Simon to accept what has been past practice: it has worked well and will, I am sure, work equally well in the future. After all, this is a Bill for cleaner waters; it is not a Bill to put more dirt into the waters, and I am sure that in the vast majority of cases it is the wish of the dock and harbour authorities to see cleaner waters. There is everything to gain and nothing to lose, and so I would ask my noble friend Lord Simon to take a wide view of the position and not to press his Amendment.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: It seems quite superfluous to add a word after the persuasive and forceful way in which the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, has put his case. But I would ask the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, this question: What harm comes from this effluence? I am told that it is supposed to corrode the ships. I do not know. But I cannot understand the direct powerful harm that could come to navigation and which would be avoided by his Amendment.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL WALDEGRAVE): Perhaps, before my noble friend replies, it might be convenient for your Lordships to know that the arguments that have been so cogently put forward by my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye are, in the view of the Government, ones which should bear weight with your Lordships. I do not think that this Bill would be improved at all, and delay would be occasioned in its operation, if this Amendment were accepted. I therefore hope that your Lordships may see fit to resist it.
3.24 p.m.
VISCOUNT SIMON: I am very disappointed with this reception. With great respect to my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye, I do not think he addressed himself quite to the Amendment I put on the Paper. He stressed several times that it was not desirable to

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lay down the need for consultation. There is no need for consultation laid down in this Amendment. It is perfectly possible, when an application has been made and it has been notified under this Amendment to the harbour authority, that the harbour authority may make some representations. The river board are under no obligation to listen to those representations if they do not want to. I did not seek to put that into the Amendment because I realised that that difficulty had been raised. The noble Lord says that this Amendment would cause delay. I do not know whether I should be within the Betting and Gaming Bill if I made an offer to the noble Lord that there are very few applications that will ever be dealt with in under 28 days. He suggested that the harbour authorities could not be informed until after the river board had made a provisional decision. The Amendment does not suggest anything of the kind. He said that the applications, when they come in, are in bad form. I suggest that the period stipulated runs from the time when the application is in good form. I do not believe there is any delay caused by this Amendment whatever.
The noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, asked about the interest of the port authorities. It does happen from time to time that noxious effluence will cause damage to ships' paint and so on, but that is by no means the only thing. Not all effluence is fluid effluence. Solid matter may be brought into the river, or difficulties may be caused with regard to dredging and other matters; and it seems to be perfectly reasonable that harbour authorities should be informed of what is asked for and, in appropriate cases—I readily agree that they will be few—should be able to make their desires known.
My noble friend Lord Balfour of Inch-rye said on two occasions, I think, that the harbour authorities would be harassing the river board. I really cannot believe that there would be any harassment in this matter at all. The river board will want to consider any application, I am sure, from every aspect. The noble Lord himself said that they will be willing to consult. If they are, they will surely be willing to receive representations without consulting. It is very disappointing to feel in this matter that we are going to be faced
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with decisions having been taken without anybody in the port authority knowing what has been applied for. I cannot for the life of me see the objection to someone being told what is applied for. It has been suggested that once a decision had been taken the interested authorities should be informed. I think I am right in saying that that is a matter already of Statute, because when a consent has been given it is, in fact, available to the public, so there is not very much in that point, if I may say so. I wonder whether the noble Lord and Her Majesty's Government, who have expressed their view on this matter, would not think again and see whether something could not be done to enable applications as they come in, without any preliminary decision of the river board, merely to be notified to other parties who are closely interested in this matter.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: The voice is the voice of my noble friend Lord Simon, but the words are the words of the Amendment, and there is a considerable difference between the two. My noble friend Lord Simon took me to task for using the word "consultation", but in fact his Amendment says that
"the river board shall take into account any representations."
How could one take into account representations unless there had also been consultation? I think that taking into account representations as a statutory obligation entails far more dangers of delay than does the consultation by legislation, which certainly I would resist. My noble friend Lord Simon painted a gloomy picture of a lot of things that might happen, but in fact they do not happen in practice; they have not happened in the past, and there is no reason why they should in the future. I would suggest this concession, and I would ask the Minister whether Her Majesty's Government would agree. Would it satisfy my noble friend if it were arranged that the river boards sent to the navigational authority a copy of applications as originally submitted to the river boards? There would be no question then of the navigation authority's not having knowledge of what the river board was considering; and men of common sense and good will would then get together, without any need for statutory provisions, and see the matter ironed out in the

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future in a satisfactory way, as it has been in the case of the River Severn, which is only one instance I could mention where it has worked perfectly well.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: Perhaps I should say, in connection with the suggested offer that my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye makes, that my right honourable friend would certainly take note of that suggestion which seems to me, speaking "off the cuff", perhaps to be a reasonable one. However, I should not like to give any absolute undertaking at this stage. I am sure my right honourable friend would sympathetically take note of that suggestion if it would help the position.
While I am on my feet, there is just one further thing that I should like to say. On this question of informing other people and of consultation with other people, that might be appropriate if these powers were being granted to an administrator or to a single person. But these powers are being granted to a board—a board with very wide membership, representing a large number of interests and with members appointed jointly by my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, who select these members very carefully. They have a broad and statesmanlike attitude to the problems that they discuss; and if you first set up a widely-based board of that sort and then, in respect of everything they do, they have to go and seek out independent interests and consult them as well, it seems to me that that really is redundant. I hope that your Lordships will take that into consideration when you are considering this Amendment, which I do advise your Lordships to reject.
LORD BURDEN: I am grateful for what has been suggested by my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye, but may I say to the Minister that it would be very slow-moving machinery indeed if the applications had to wait, or the meetings of the river boards, and so on. I speak as one with a very great admiration for their work and I have some connection with them as one of the vice-presidents, of the River Boards Association. It is a step forward, I think, and might go a very long way indeed; because it would
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mean that the officers of the river board, before waiting for any meeting of the river board, would act in the manner suggested, and would have the knowledge of the people concerned. But, of course, the Amendment rests with my noble friend Lord Simon. It is his responsibility, and not mine.
LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: I am glad the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, is resisting this Amendment, but I am afraid I must resist the suggestion made towards the end of his remarks. I am a member of a river board, and the proposals which have been put forward in this House, and which were also put forward in another place—that consultations should take place before consent is granted—would just make the business of the river boards unworkable, and we must resist attempts at delay of one kind and another. If river boards have to advise port and harbour authorities before they give a consent, I would ask: why only port and harbour authorities? Why not the local water authority? Why not the local county council? Before we know where we are, the work of the river boards and the great job they have to do to clean up pollution in our rivers would be destroyed. It would be unnecessary delay. For the life of me I cannot see why port and harbour authorities have, all of a sudden, this great interest in pollution. Some of the authorities of the greatest ports up and down this country, such as the Port of London Authority, are the pollution authority—and a splendid work they do; but, Generally speaking, the harbours round our coast have no prevention-of-pollution rights to-day. It is because of the fact that they have no rights to deal with pollution that this Bill is being promoted. I hope that this Amendment will be withdrawn. I was glad to hear the Minister say—
LORD BURDEN: I am sorry to intervene again, but I must say one word on what my noble friend has said. The point is, first, that harbour authorities are not represented on river boards; and, secondly, that local authorities are represented on river boards, and in that way, of course, get to know what goes on.
LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: My noble friend is quite wrong. The Minister himself paid tribute to the representative nature of

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the river boards. I am a member of a harbour board—the greatest one in the country—and I am also a member of a river board.
LORD BURDEN: But not by virtue of your membership of a harbour board.
LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: My noble friend is wrong again. I am appointed by the Port of London Authority to represent them on the Essex Rivers Board.
LORD BURDEN: I have served eight years on one of these boards, so I know what goes on.
LORD SALTOUN. The methods of copying are so efficient now, and it can be so easily done, that I think the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, does carry the matter forward. I do not see that there can be any real objection against carrying it into effect.
VISCOUNT SIMON: If the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, could be put into effect, it would go a long way towards meeting what I have put down in this Amendment. It would be the first half of it: that the harbour authorities would know what was asked for. I agree that there would then be no obligation on the river board to take into account anything that the harbour authority might say, but in practice I have no doubt, as has been said before, that there will be the closest co-operation between the bodies concerned, and that they will, in fact, take into account what is said. However, they could not do so if the harbour authorities were not informed what was being discussed; and if, through the good offices of the noble Earl, it were possible for that to be arranged, I think the Harbour Authorities Association, who have asked me to put this Amendment forward, would certainly be satisfied. On that basis, I should be prepared to withdraw this Amendment.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: Before the noble Viscount withdraws his Amendment, I want to be quite clear on this. I will take the suggestion to my right honourable friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, but I do not want to be taken as having given an undertaking, because I do not know
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what he will be able to do. I want therefore to make it quite clear, before the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, withdraws his Amendment, that I cannot go further than taking note—and he knows quite well what that means.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: May I just reiterate that I have no power at all beyond the power of representation to Her Majesty's Government which is enjoyed by any noble Lord in this House? I have no authority at all, but my request would be that the navigation authorities should be given a copy of an application for a consent as originally submitted to the river board. To make that request is my right. It rests with Her Majesty's Government in the future as to whether they do or do not agree to it. I am sure the noble Viscount would acquit me of any wish to give him any sort of hope, or of accepting any sort of responsibility for that suggestion beyond that of a private Member of your Lordship's House putting forward a Bill and asking Her Majesty's Government to consider a particular point.
VISCOUNT SIMON: I am much obliged to the noble Lord and to the noble Earl for making their positions so clear. However, one point is not so clear to me, and I do not know whether it is to the Committee as a whole. I am not quite sure what the status of this offer is. Is the offer that, if the right honourable gentleman accepts this suggestion, he will put it into the Bill?
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: No.
VISCOUNT SIMON: Then what will he do with it, if I may ask?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: As I understand it, my right honourable friend would not put anything into the Bill—that proposal we are resisting strongly. But he would, by administrative circular and so on, bring the point to the notice of the interested parties. It is something which has often been done before; and I am sure that your Lordships know very well—and I think the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, knows quite well—what my right honourable friend would do with it.
VISCOUNT SIMON: I am much obliged to the noble Earl. I must not detain

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the Committee any longer. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
Schedule [Seaward Limits of Controlled Waters]:
3.39 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: With your Lordships' permission I should like to speak in general to all these remaining Amendments, and your Lordships are well entitled to have a few words of explanation from myself as to why I submit them The basic reason for it is that in another place those responsible for this Bill originally tried to define in terms what was tidal water and what was not. Later on, after consultation with the appropriate Departments, that attempt was abandoned, and the matter was, as it were, tackled from the other end: the whole of the coastline was reviewed, and each specific locality of tidal water was charted.
It should be within your Lordships' recollection that on Second Reading I informed your Lordships that would make arrangements to place in the Library a complete set of 95 maps of the coast of Britain with these tidal waters marked out, as decided by the cartographers. The preparation of the Schedule was a big job for the experts, for it included, as I say, a complete examination of the coastline. There was not much time between Second Reading and Committee stage in another place, and further scrutiny has shown the need for fifteen Amendments. They are merely small alterations to make the landmarks more durable and have all been introduced and submitted to your Lordships after consultation and co-operation with the local people. They entail no significant alteration, but make a better definition. If I may give your Lordships an example, in No. 13, Gypsey Race is not really a tidal river and in No. 28 perhaps the original definition could not be justified because it was too far out. I do not want to weary your Lordships by giving a detailed explanation of each individual Amendment, unless any noble Lord wants me to do so.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: Subject entirely to the wishes of the Committee, it is my proposal to put all these Amendments in one Question, but if any Member of the Committee desires to speak on any one of them or to ask any question about any one of them, I will put that Amendment separately.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I beg to move Amendments Nos. 5 to 20.
Amendments moved—
Page 4, leave out line 33.
Page 4, line 37, leave out from ("Point") to end of line 38 and insert ("to Gore Point.").
Page 4, line 44, leave out from ("to") to end of line 45 and insert ("the northernmost point of Blakeney Point.").
Page 5, leave out lines 7 and 8, and insert—
("22. The mouth of the river Ore.").
Page 5, line 27, leave out from first ("the") to ("to") in line 28 and insert ("West Cliff Bandstand, Ramsgate, at TR37126415").
Page 5, line 35, after ("and") insert ("the east").
Page 5, leave out line 38, and insert—("33. A line drawn between the seaward ends of the jetties at Littlehampton.").
Page 5, leave out lines 48 and 49, and insert ("lighthouse at the seaward end of Hurst Castle Spit on the mainland at SZ31838987.").
Page 6, line 7, at end insert—
("40. Lines drawn across the North Ship Channel, East Ship Channel and South Ship Channel at Portland harbour between the ends of the breakwaters.").
line 13, leave out from ("to") to end of line 14 and insert ("the seaward end of the breakwater at Langstone Rock.").
Page 7, line 4, leave out ("SS41902905") and insert ("SS41432851").
Page 7,line 18, leave out from second ("Point") to end of line.
Page 7,line 18, leave out line 21, and insert—
("68. A line drawn across the entrance to Solfach harbour from SM80162355 to SM79992365.").
Page 7,line 18, leave out lines 36 and 37 and insert—
("77. The mouth of the river Artro.")
Page 8, line 16, leave out from ("to") to end of line 17 and insert ("SJ32259699.").
Page 8, line 20, leave out from first ("the") to ("to") in line 21 and insert ("seaward side of Marine Drive where it is crossed by Southport Pier at SD33021787").—(Lord Balloter of Inchrye.)
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, for information? Suppose some amendment of this cartographical survey is required, how is it done? Does it mean another Act of Parliament?
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I am told that once this Bill is passed the points of demarcation are durable, and if there is some alteration in the coastline, due to either encroachment of the sea or recession of the sea, these landmarks will still stand marked on the ordnance map.
LORD DYNEVOR: In the noble Lord's illuminating explanation of the significant and immense amount of work done he said that it had been decided not to make a definition of "tidal waters". Is not the simple definition of tidal waters, "where the tide flows"?
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: That was the original hope of those who promoted the Bill in another place, but "where the tide flows" did not satisfy the precision required in an Act of Parliament, so it was turned over, as it were, and instead of a general definition we came to a series of specific definitions. That is why these Amendments have been put down.
LORD DYNEVOR: I am sorry to learn that it is not a precise definition. These were the words used in setting up the Milford Haven Conservancy Board.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: I am not defending or commenting on the Milford Haven Act. The decision not to attempt to make a general definition but to demarcate specific areas which are tidal was taken and could only be taken, after full consultation with and with the assistance of Her Majesty's Government and her experts.
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

FILMS BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order) (on report from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills): Bill reported without amendment.

OFFICES BILL
3.48 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Comrnittee.—(Lord Burden.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Regulations for securing health, safety and welfare of persons employed in offices]:
On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall be agreed to?
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: I desire to raise a point with regard to subsection (2) of this clause, which reads:
"The Secretary of State may provide by regulations for restricting the employment of women in offices after childbirth."
Shortly before I came into your Lordships' House to-day, I received a letter from a women's organisation asking me to raise this matter this afternoon in your Lordships' House. They say that they regard this subsection as detrimental to the employment of women and that it interferes with their personal liberty.
In the course of my life, this question of delimiting the employment of women has gone through more than one stage. When I was young, there were a great number of employment cases in which women suffered severely by the methods and conditions of their work. Therefore, a number of women and persons who wished their welfare safeguarded set about getting regulations made to protect (as it was expressed) women from the sort of treatment to which they had been subjected, and many such regulations which the public generously regarded as being beneficial were put into effect; but they largely arose because women had no means of protecting themselves. Few had trade unions. Such unions as there were were not fully representative of women workers, and unscrupulous employers misused their rights, with the result that these regulations, such as they were, proved of great benefit to women.
As years went by, a somewhat different position arose, because many of these

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regulations were not used for the purposes for which they were supposed to be used but in the interests of men, to keep women out of employment. Women were classed with young persons. A great many regulations were made which affected women and young persons, and it meant that women, not in their interests, but in the interests of other people, were prevented from entering into occupations in which they were fully capable of working. Now we have reached a stage in history when a great many of these regulations have been swept away, with the result that there are only a few cases where women are prohibited by law or regulation from carrying on work for which they are fully capable.
The question which arises on this particular subsection is into which category this proposed restriction comes: whether it is a benefit to women, or whether it is not. The view taken by the society that has written to me is that it would be better to leave out subsection (2). They think that women are quite capable of looking after themselves and that any such restriction is deleterious to the vital and personal interests of women. I will not say that I necessarily endorse all the views of that society, but I want to draw attention to this in order to make sure that if this subsection is going to stand as part of the Bill it is not used improperly. There are two things I want to say with regard to that. The first is that it is essential that the women themselves must be consulted—and by that I do not mean individual women, but women's organisations—before any such regulations are made. As I understand it, that is already provided for in Clause 1 (4) of the Bill, which says:
"Before making any regulations under this section, the Secretary of State shall consult such organisations as appear to him to represent the interests concerned."
So far as that subsection goes, it meets the first objection that I put.
But on this question of childbirth, there is another point I want to make. We have the phrase here "after childbirth". That is rather a neutral phrase, but presumably it means for a limited time after childbirth, because it would be quite absurd for a woman to be prohibited from doing something years after she has given birth to a child. But the point arises—and I am sure that Mem
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bers of your Lordships' House of both sexes will agree—that the effects of childbirth on women differ enormously from one woman to another. One woman may be incapacitated for months after childbirth, and no regulation stating a limited amount of time in which she must not do this, that or the other would have any effect. On the other hand, some women recover with extraordinary rapidity. No regulation which specifies a certain number of days, weeks or months is a suitable thing to apply in the abstract to a case where so many different standards would arise.
Therefore, though I am not moving the deletion of this subsection to-day, I want to draw the attention of my noble friend who is in charge of the Bill to this matter. I hope that, if he can give any satisfactory assurance, he will do so, and if not, perhaps the noble Earl opposite can promise that the Government will look into it and will take care that it shall not be used improperly, as some of the women who have written to me feel that it may be.
LORD SHACKLETON: I, too, should like to refer to the point with which my noble friend Lord Pethick-Lawrence has been dealing—namely, this question of the restriction of the employment of women in offices after childbirth. I speak with some knowledge on the subject, since it is my job in business to administer regulations concerned with this field. The weakness of this particular provision is that unless it is associated with a general sick-pay arrangement it can be very hard indeed. But provided there is some proper sick-pay arrangement—and I hope the time will come when the whole of industry will have proper sick-pay arrangements—it is entirely reasonable and desirable, in my opinion, to have such restrictions. In my firm we give permission to women who are expecting children to be off for thirteen weeks on full pay, of which five weeks is to be after the birth of the child. It may well be necessary for them to be off longer, but that would naturally depend on medical advice. I hope that this provision will remain in the Bill, and that when the Government come to consult interested parties before they make their regulations they will have regard to the experience of industry, where there is information available on the working of such arrangements when

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they have been made internally in a particular firm. I think it is a desirable thing.
There is another aspect of this matter, although, again, I do not think we can hope to put it in this Bill or in regulations. There ought to be some guarantee of re-employment afterwards. The time comes when a woman goes off and has a baby every year for two or three years, and it becomes a little onerous on the management and expensive to the firm if they have to send her off for thirteen weeks on full pay and provide a replacement. None the less, it is a step in the right direction, and I hope that it will remain in the Bill.
It is unfortunate that the limitations on our procedure with Private Members' Bills and the time available make it virtually impossible to make other changes to this Bill, and particularly to this clause. It would not be in order, therefore, for me to propose Amendments which I do not intend to move. None the less, when the time comes for the making of regulations, I hope that the Government will bear in mind the desirability of interpreting this clause as widely as possible. It seems to me to be a defect that it covers, and, indeed, the whole Bill is concerned with, offices and does not cover that vital area, access to offices. I hope that in any regulations that are made—I do not know whether this will be legal—the possibility of covering access, which is where accidents are particularly apt to happen, will be dealt with. I do not think it would be improper to do so under the Bill, us drafted.
I would ask my noble friend and those who are concerned with and will be following this Bill into regulation form that Clause 1 (1) (k), the maintaining of adequate and suitable first-aid equipment, might also be interpreted to cover the training of people to look after that equipment. If this is to be properly maintained a regulation must also ensure that there is somebody capable of maintaining it. I think it is unfortunate, and is a defect, that there is no provision along the lines of other legislation that has been introduced for providing for the training of people to become expert in this field. I would stress that we are not concerned so much with accidents as with ordinary day-to-day misfortunes—colds and all sorts of things—which in due course, I am sure, will be increas
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ingly treated at the place of work by the development of an industrial health service. This is of equal importance where offices are concerned, and is not confined only to factories. I hope that this clause will be passed unamended, and that when the time comes to make regulations matters which are ancillary and related to the various provisions of this clause will, so far as possible, be covered by the regulations.
LORD TAYLOR: May I add one point to what my noble friend Lord Shackleton has said about the regulations for first-aid boxes? It would be a great pity if the existing regulations with regard to factory first-aid boxes were automatic, ally applied to offices, because the needs of offices are quite different. For example, the amount of dressing material which goes into a factory first-aid box is quite substantial, as it should be, but in an office, as my noble friend has said, the things that one looks for in a first-aid box are simply homely remedies for headaches, coughs and colds, for the women workers' pain at periods, and that sort of thing. We have found in fact that three sets of tablets meet fully the needs of the first-aid box for office workers in respect of medicines. They need only a small quantity of dressings. It is hoped that when the regulations come to be made they will be realistic and related to need.
4.2 p.m.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: I am much obliged to noble Lords who have taken part in this discussion. May I apologise to the Committee for not being here quite on time to move that the House go into Committee? I was seeking information about the first Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, on which I was not at that point fully informed.
With regard to the important point made by my noble friend Lord Pethick-Lawrence, I quite see the argument of the organisation which has communicated with him. There is a school of thought which does not like legislation for the protection of women because it means discriminating in favour of women to such an extent that it might restrict the possibilities of the employment of women. I think that may be the apprehension behind the communication my noble friend has received. On the other hand, it is a matter of community

35
interest for the protection of the mother, and possibly also for the protection of the child, that a woman should not go back to work too soon after childbirth. I think that is a matter of sufficient community interest to warrant legislative provision being made, not for the purpose of damaging women but for the purpose of protecting their health and, possibly, the well-being of the mother's child or children. Therefore, I think it is desirable that this should remain.
I admit that it is a tricky point as to whether there should be a period stated in the regulations, because, as has been said, the situation varies from woman to woman as to when they are fit to go back. I suppose the way to cover that would be to require the regulations to state a period, the effectiveness of that being dependent upon a medical certificate to the effect that the woman was capable of returning to employment. However, there are many things for which medical certificates are required, and sometimes the way medical certificates are issued is not altogether satisfactory. However, it is a point the Government might consider when they make the regulations.
On the question of consultation, it is provided in the clause that appropriate organisations shall be consulted. There may, of course, be differences of opinion as to what are appropriate and what are not. There are a good many organisations known to be feminist in character, but they can be consulted under the wording of the Bill and in any case they could communicate with the Minister concerned and ask for their views to be taken into account, if possible by personal interview or by correspondence. There is no doubt that consultation with appropriate organisations is provided for in the Bill. I am much obliged to my noble friend for the broad view he has taken on the matter. As a matter of fact, it was my noble friend Lord Shackleton who mentioned a firm with which he is associated which gives three months pay to women employees before and after childbirth. The period before is not unimportant. As my noble friend said, if a woman has an annual custom of having children—and it does happen in some cases—the employers might get a little "browned off", shall we say, in continuing, to pay three months pay for
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no work. In any case, it could not be done under this Bill, but it is a point which is worth keeping in mind. Women get some benefit under the National Health Service Act, but not benefit of this scope.
The point in regard to paragraph (k) in subsection (1), about training in first-aid, was partly answered by my noble friend Lord Taylor, who said that in the case of offices very little was needed, other than suitable tablets for certain troubles. In so far as that is true, provided there are proper directions on the bottle or box containing the tablets, not much first-aid would be needed. Nevertheless, in so far as first-aid is needed, the regulations could take into account that there should be suitable facilities for training to take place. In the case of a small office one could not very well expect it to employ a special person for that exclusive purpose. On the other hand, if it is an office in a factory, it is quite likely that the industrial health service will be there, and that the matter will be taken care of. My noble friend Lord Taylor was quite right in saying that the circumstances of offices and office employment are quite different from those which obtain in factories. In the circumstances I think the clause is about as good as we can get it, but no doubt the noble Earl opposite will be able to assure us that the points will be taken into consideration by the Secretary of State in making the regulatons so that they can be properly considered.
EARL BATHURST: I think it may be convenient if I take this opportunity to echo what the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, has said. This particular subsection to which the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, has drawn your Lordships' attention is, of course, solely for the protection of women, and there was no idea of restricting the employment of women in offices, whether for reasons of childbirth or otherwise. Any regulations my right honourable friend makes under this subsection will, of course, be made after the fullest consultation, not only with members of industry, as the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, and the noble Lord Shackleton, asked, but also with representatives of the women employees' associations or trade unions. As the noble Lord will see, under Clause 5 these regulations will be subject to debate in

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both Houses of Parliament. I hope that when that happens—it must be some time in the future—your Lordships will have the benefit of the expert advice of the Lady Members of your Lordships' House. It is most sad that none of them is able to be in her place to-day, as I am certain that we should have had the most expert and beneficial advice from them.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton asked about access to offices and, of course, that matter is not covered in the ambit of this modest Bill. The noble Lord must recognise that it is a modest Bill. Such accidents will be treated in the same way as if they had happened in a street or some other public, or fairly public, place, where they can be collated and registered. As it is at present, accidents in offices are lost. They become a jumble of statistics, and it is impossible to find out what accidents do happen. But that is the point of this Bill; to make certain that these accidents can be tabulated under a subsection of the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, spoke about first-aid boxes, and your Lordships know how much he has done in the whole field of industrial medicine. Of course these first-aid boxes will be described in the regulations again after consultations. I do ask the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, to appreciate, as the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, said, that this is a modest Bill and cannot go into all the divergent subjects about which we have heard this afternoon. I hope that that satisfies the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: I have no wish to push this matter any further now, but I want to say just two things more—first of all, on this question of how long a woman should be kept out of the office. It is not a question of manual labour, but a question of the offices. It must vary very much from individual to individual. As to the pre-natal period, I may perhaps tell the House a fact that may surprise them; I should not have come into the world at all if my mother, who walked across the frozen Serpentine the day before I was born, had had an accident in consequence of that action.
As to post-natal activity, it seems to me very much to depend upon the kind of occupation. Take a woman who is
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a secretary, and perhaps does not even have to move the keys of a typewriter. In such a case it may be that a period of something like ten to thirteen weeks for her to stay away from work may be fantastic. It may be very much better for her to return within a few weeks. What may arise may be the question of the child, and that is the question the women's organisations are concerned with: the woman's right to decide what is best for the child. It may be better that she should go back to work and that the child should be cared for in some other way. She would get more money. But it is not a question for the Secretary of State to decide. The interests of the individual woman as she feels for herself should, in the general case, prevail over some regulation made from outside on a generalisation of the circumstances of women who differ so very greatly from one to another.
EARL BATHURST: I am quite certain that your Lordships all appreciate everything the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, has said, and I assure the noble Lord that, when these regulations come to be made, all that has been said in your Lordships' House this afternoon will be taken into consideration. The regulations will be made for the protection of women, and my right honourable friend will have to take the best advice available to him, including, no doubt, the advice given to us this afternoon, when he makes up his mind as to how these regulations shall be formulated and then applied.
LORD SHACKLETON: I should only like to say that the whole weight of medical opinion is against my noble friend Lord Pethick-Lawrence.
On Question, Clause 1 agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 4 agreed to.
Clause 5:
Notification of accidents
5.—(1) Where any accident occurs in an office which either—

(a) causes loss of life to a person employed in the premises; or

(b) disables any such person for more than three days from earning full wages at the work at which he was employed,

written notice of the accident, in the prescribed form and accompanied by the prescribed particulars, shall forthwith be sent by the occupier to the local authority in whose area the office is situated.
4.14 p.m.
LORD JESSEL LORD JESSEL moved to add to subsection (1):
"Provided that, in the case of an office to which the provisions of section seven of this Act apply, the report shall be made to the factory inspector in whose area the office is situated."
The noble Lord said: your Lordships will see that Clause 7 of the Bill provides that offices forming part of a factory are to come under the supervision of the Factory Inspectorate and not the local authority. But if your Lordships look at subsection (1) of Clause 5 you will see that it says that
"written notice of the accident, in the prescribed form and accompanied by the prescribed particulars, shall forthwith be sent by the occupier to the local authority in whose area the office is situated."
The object of my Amendment is quite simple and, I think, logical. I want to ensure that an accident in an office which comes under the supervision of the Factory Inspectorate should be reported to that department, and that department only. I understand that Her Majesty's Government are quite favourable to this Amendment, and also (which is equally important that they will see that time is found in another place for the Amendment to be considered and incorporated in the Bill. I have had some correspondence with the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, and I have assured him the last thing I want to do is to wreck the Bill. I hope that we are now going to get an assurance from the Minister in charge of the Bill that he will accept my Amendment; and as a little douceur may I say that I understand the other Amendments are not viewed so favourably, and I am not going to move them. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 40, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Jessel.)
LORD SHACKLETON: This Amendment seems a very reasonable one, but I am not sure whether it is as necessary as the noble Lord suggests. The purpose of Clause 5 (and I must apologise to the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, for misunderstanding the purpose) is primarily to provide statistics—I think I am correct in that. It is not from the point of view of providing information which would be of value to factory inspectors from the immediate point of view of investigating
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an accident. I ought to remind your Lordships that there is, of course, provision under the Industrial Injuries Regulations that all accidents which are liable to give rise to a claim for National Insurance must be recorded, and this is a much stricter requirement than is that laid down in Clause 5, which is almost word for word the same as in the Factories Acts.
There is, or should be, in every establishment employing more than ten people such a book, and this information will be recorded in it, and will presumably be open to the factory inspectors as provided by Clause 7. I think, in fact, that the factory inspectors are enabled in certain cases to discharge responsibilities under this Bill. I agree that there is a certain illogicality in this clause not also applying, but in so far as the purpose is to provide information and statistics of accidents in offices there is, I submit, a certain logic in letting it go to the authority which is particularly concerned with collecting those statistics; and to that extent, whereas I would not oppose the regulation, I do not think the case for it is quite so strong as when I first heard it. I know that there is no question of the noble Lord's wishing to endanger the Bill, but if the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, feels it too dangerous to accept this Amendment—and I think it is a great tragedy we cannot do this sort of thing—I do not think too much harm will result.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Shackleton for the helpful speech he has delivered. My instinct was to resist the Amendment, partly because I am not sure that it is really vital, and partly because I do not want to run the risk of delay in another place. On the other hand, Lord Jessel has come forward with a fairly noble offer: that he proposes to move this Amendment but not the other two that are on the Paper, on which I had ready a very fine speech that would have completely undermined his arguments. I am sorry not to deliver it, but it will save the time of the Committee. This Amendment really means that it is an office in a factory, and that therefore, when the accident takes place, it should be reported to the factory inspector to whom powers in factories are being delegated for the administration of the Bill.

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I am bound to say, on looking into the matter and taking advice, that I think that the noble Lord has made a case, subject to this: that the Government will give time in another place for the consideration of the Lords' Amendment or Amendments, as the case may be, and ensure the passage of the Bill in the present Parliamentary Session. If that undertaking is given then I think this is not an unreasonable proposition. I imagine that the purpose of the provision in the Bill—I say this with great respect to my noble friend Lord Shackleton—is not only the collection of statistics. An accident may reveal that there is something wrong in the factory itself, either in its physical construction or characteristics, or something else, of which the factory inspector ought to take notice and possibly serve notice on the owners of the factory to make certain modifications or alterations. That rather strengthens the case of the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, for the factory inspector rather than the local authority to have the report, because he is the man who can best take action arising out of an accident.
In all the circumstances—although I must say that I was hoping to get this Bill through without amendment—reason comes to me and I think it would not be right or fair to resist this Amendment of the noble Lord, provided that the noble Earl can give undertakings of the character that I have mentioned. I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, for not pursuing the other two Amendments. That makes it easier to accept this one.
EARL BATHURST: My noble friend Lord Jessel argued that it would avoid confusion if notifiable accidents occurring in offices inspected by the factory inspectorate were required to be reported to the local inspector, and that is exactly the point that the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, made to the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth. For those reasons Her Majesty's Government consider that the balance of argument is, in principle, probably in favour of my noble friend's Amendment. The parallel provision is in Section 64 of the Factories Act, which requires accidents occurring in a factory to be notified to the factory inspector of the district. Although the prime object behind the clause in this Bill is to collect the information for more general purposes for the analysis
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of the types of accidents to which office workers are exposed, as the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, mentioned to us just now, particular notification may well be of interest to the local enforcement authority, again for the reasons that the noble Lord mentioned, so that possibly measures can be brought to the notice of the employers, or that measures in general might be applied in that particular type of office. This is an Amendment which can reasonably be accepted if your Lordships so desire it and provided it meets with the wishes of the noble Lord, Lord Morrision of Lambeth. As we have heard, it would meet his wishes, and I assure the noble Lord that should your Lordships pass this Amendment, there will be time made available by Her Majesty's Government in another place.
LORD SHACKLETON: I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, on his break-through on this Bill. If the Government are prepared to provide time for this useful Amendment, might they not perhaps take over one or two of the suggestions that have been made—this point of access, and so on—and get those through also? I am quite sure that the noble Earl is aware of other improvements that might be made and which he might think of putting down on Report stage—or we would put them down for him, if he is prepared to give the same sort of undertaking.
EARL BATHURST: The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and his noble friend Lord Stonham, who is not now in his place, know perfectly well the problems that we should have to meet if some of their ideas were to be put into effect. No doubt they may be good ideas. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, and I have said, this is a modest Bill, and is a start to put right some of the wrongs that no doubt exist in offices. I must draw the noble Lord's attention to the OFFICIAL REPORT of another place on Friday, where, in column 1762, my right honourable friend said:
"As to the future, the Government are considering whether the Bill should be overtaken by some more comprehensive form of legislation such as has been referred to."
Those in another place were having a rather similar debate on points brought

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up such as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and his noble friend Lord Stonham, have been bringing before your Lordships.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: It is a most remarkable Parliamentary innovation to say that because a Bill is a modest Bill you cannot accept an Amendment. The Amendment depends upon the Title of the Bill. If the Amendments were within the Title, then they can be accepted. The argument that there is not enough time is another matter altogether. I point that out only in passing, because I do not think that that is an innovation which is in accordance with Parliamentary practice.
EARL BATHURST: I would not lightly cross swords with such an expert on procedure as the noble Viscount, but I assure him that there are so many bodies and interests to be consulted that it would be far beyond the scope of a Private Member's Bill, which is a modest start. I hope that by quoting from the speech of my right honourable friend I have shown a little which way the wind is blowing.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: Neither the blowing of the wind nor what the noble Earl says was said in another place affects the fact that what is proper to go into a Bill is governed by the Title.
EARL BATHURST: I did not say that it was not proper. I said that it was almost impossible at this late stage in the Session—not improper.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: I, too, do not wish to cross swords with such an experienced and expert Parliamentarian as my noble friend Lord Stansgate. He was once a Government Whip. I gather that he does not much like to be reminded of that. He got out of that job fairly expeditiously, and he became a lively and effective Back-Bencher for many years afterwards in another place. It is always a pleasure to hear him. I do not blame him at all for making the point he made, especially as it affects the noble Earl opposite rather than myself. On the other hand, the noble Earl opposite makes a perfectly fair point; it was made by myself, and he is entitled to rely upon what I said as evidence on his side. I have never handled a Private
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Member's Bill before—it is a new experience for me—but it is undoubtedly the case that if there is too much in the Bill there will be trouble and there will be delay in getting it through. Then there is further delay when your Lordships give it proper and adequate consideration. As a consequence, one may endanger the passage of the Bill.
I sympathise warmly with my noble friend Lord Shackleton. I know exactly what he is getting at. If he will not mind my divulging our private relations, I may say that he and my noble friend Lord Stonham had intended to put down Amendments. Lord Stonham had done so and my noble friend Lord Shackleton wanted to do so. There was nothing on earth to prevent my noble friend from doing it except that I persuaded him and my noble friend Lord Stonham not to do so. I am grateful to them. The reasons I gave were the same as I have given to-day. Now, lo and behold! my noble friend Lord Shackleton comes along and sees me accept an Amendment from a noble Lord opposite. He is quite entitled to say, as the late Earl, then Mr. Lloyd George said, "Me, too". But I am afraid that that is the situation, and I cannot help it. I am obliged to my noble friend for his assistance in the matter and, indeed, to the noble Lord, Lord Jessel, for not moving the other two Amendments. There we are. Such is the nature of Parliamentary business.
LORD JESSEL: I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, for being so kind about my modest Amendment on this modest Bill, and also for the assurance given by my noble friend Lord Bathurst which has made it possible for him to accept it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 6 agreed to.
Clause 7 [Enforcement of Act by factory inspectors in certain cases]:
On Question, Whether Clause 7 shall be agreed to?
LORD BURDEN: This clause was inserted at the Report stage in another place and, quite briefly, it transfers responsibility for the enforcement of the provisions of the Act in relation to offices in factories from the local authority to factory inspectors, leaving the

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local authority inspectors to look after only the sanitary conveniences in offices. It would be unfair to develop the matter further this afternoon, because I have not had an opportunity of discussing this point with my noble friend Lord Morrison of Lambeth; but I take this opportunity of saying that on the Report stage I shall move that Clause 7 be deleted.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: I have taken note of what has been said by my noble friend. I would only say that I shall be a partisan in favour of very strict economy on Amendments and changes on the Report stage, solely for the reason I have indicated. Nevertheless it is still a free country, so far.
Clause 7 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
House resumed.
Then Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution):
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, I was proposing to move that the Report be now received. That would mean that we should pass the Report stage to-day, but that would not exclude consideration of Amendments which, under the procedure of your Lordships' House, can be considered on Third Reading. If the House would be good enough to agree, I would move that the Report be now received, so that the next stage would be the Third Reading, with consideration of any Amendments which might emerge. I beg to move that the Report be now received.
Moved, That the Report be now received.—(Lord Morrison of Lambeth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: The Amendment reported.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL [H.L.]
4.33 p.m.
Amendments reported according to Order.
Clause 1:
Right of Appeal
1.—
(2) No appeal shall lie under this section except with the leave of the court below or of the House of Lords; and such leave shall not be granted unless it is certified by the court below that a point of law of general public importance is involved in the decision and it appears to that court or to the House of Lords, as the case may be, that the point is one which ought to be considered by that House.
LORD CHORLEY LORD CHORLEY moved to add to subsection (2):
"Provided that the foregoing provisions of this subsection shall not apply in relation to any appeal from a decision of a Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division in proceedings on a criminal application for habeas corpus."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, your Lordships will have observed that the subject matter of this Amendment is covered by an Amendment to Clause 15 in the name of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack. My Amendment was put down before I appreciated that his had been put down. I have no doubt that he will think that his is better placed and possibly better drafted, and I do not feel very strongly about these matters. I should like to take this opportunity of thanking him, first, for meeting at any rate one of the points on which I have been arguing rather strenuously: that the qualifications in regard to the matter raising a point of law "of general public importance" should be removed from appeals in connection with matters of habeas corpus.
I have been fortunate on this occasion to have the assistance of a skilled draftsman in preparing my Amendments, so that I do not apologise for their amateurish quality—as I have had to do in the past when, in conjunction with my less skilled friends, I have moved Amendments to Bills in your Lordships' House. Indeed, on this occasion I rather feel that my Amendment is somewhat better drafted than that of the Government. In particular, I prefer

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"proceedings on a criminal application" to the phrase "a criminal application". My noble and learned friend Lord Conesford is here and I am sure that he, on whom we have come to rely for lessons in the use of our native tongue, will agree with me that on this particular point, at any rate, my Amendment is possibly better drafted than the Government Amendment. I do not like the expression "criminal application". I am not at all sure that an application can be "criminal", but I suppose it is only a small point; and in order to have the views of the noble and learned Viscount I will formally move my Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 19, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Chorley.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, for his appreciation of the fact that we have met his point to a considerable extent; but the effect of the Amendment as drafted would be to give a right of appeal to the House of Lords from any decision of a Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division on a criminal application for habeas corpus free from the restrictions imposed by subsection (2), including even the need to obtain leave to appeal. This unrestricted right to appeal would be available to the prosecutor as well as to the applicant. Both sides would then be in a better position with regard to their right to appeal to the House of Lords than any other English litigant, for in all other cases, without exception, leave to appeal is necessary.
I do not believe that a case has been made for this far-reaching alteration in the law; and the argument as to the importance of the writ of habeas corpus is met by my Amendment to Clause 15 (Amendment No. 9). I believe that that goes as far as can reasonably be expected in the direction desired by the noble Lord, Lord Chorley. I think he will agree that I have tried very hard to pay the fullest attention to what has been said, and I hope that I have met the substance of the matter. For I believe that it would be wrong to ask the House of Lords to hear all appeals without the sieving done by the Appeal Committee, and I hope
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that the noble Lord will not insist on it. Apart from that, if I may use the words of an old story, I should like to say that I realise his Amendments are beautifully cooked.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I am not sure that all of your Lordships will quite appreciate the wit of the noble and learned Viscount's remark, but some of your Lordships, I am quite sure, appreciated it at its true value. I accept the substance of the noble and learned Viscount's argument, and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 13:
Appeal in cases of contempt of court
(4) Subsections (2) to (4) of section one of this Act shall apply to an appeal to the House of Lords under this section as they apply to an appeal to that House under that section, except that so much of the said subsection (2) as restricts the grant of leave to appeal shall apply only where the decision of the court below is a decision on appeal to that court under this section.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, perhaps I might discuss and put Amendments 2 and 3 together. These Amendments are almost entirely drafting. They result in a more logical arrangement of subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 13 and, in my view, introduce greater precision. I could go into the details, but I do not think your Lordships would want me to. If there is any point raised I shall be pleased to answer it. With your Lordships' consent, I will put these two Amendments together.
Amendments moved—
Page 8, line 9, leave out from beginning to ("shall") in line 11 and insert ("Subject to the provisions of this section an appeal shall lie under this section from any order or decision of a court in the exercise of jurisdiction to punish for contempt of court (including criminal contempt); and in relation to any such order or decision the provisions of this section")
Page 8, line 14, leave out from ("appeal") to ("and") in line 17 and insert ("under this section shall lie in any case at the instance of the defendant and, in the case of an application for committal or attachment, at the instance of the applicant").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, Amendments 4 and 5 go together and I will, with your Lordships' consent,

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deal with them together. As subsection (2) of Clause 13 stands, appeals in contempt cases will lie from inferior courts to the Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division. The effect of the Amendments is to channel appeals from most of these courts, other than quarter sessions, to the Court of Appeal instead. The Amendments accord with the policy generally adopted in Clause 13: that appeals in cases of contempt should, so far as possible, follow the existing appeals procedure. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page, 8, line 18, leave out ("other than a county court") and insert ("not referred to in the newt following paragraph")
Page 8, line 21, leave out from ("court") to ("having") in line 23 and insert ("or any other inferior court from which appeals generally lie to the Court of Appeal, and from an order or decision of the Chancery Court of a County Palatine, of a single judge of the High Court, or of any court").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
4.43 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY LORD CHORLEY moved in subsection (4), to leave out "(2) to (4)" and insert "(3) and (4)". The noble Lord said: My Lords, the next two Amendments are really designed to secure the same position in regard to contempt cases as that in relation to habeas corpus. It seems to quite a number of people that habeas corpus cases are really in a different category from ordinary criminal cases and the qualifications in Clause 1, which have been discussed so much, ought not to apply there any more than to habeas corpus. The noble and learned Viscount has indicated that he does not altogether accept this view. I feel that the argument about the sieve is not really very strong here because these contempt cases are not very common. I suppose that those that go any substantial distance are, on the whole, newspaper cases, and it may very well be that in regard to the newspaper cases there is a stronger argument for a qualification than in some other cases.
There is also the point which I have already made and which I am not quite sure the noble and learned Viscount has really dealt with: that in some, at any rate, of these contempt cases (possibly not the newspaper ones so much) it is not really a question of law, or the question of law is only partially the problem; it is
50
a question of getting new minds to work on a problem which is essentially one of discretion. In cases of that sort it has seemed to a number of people—and I know that my noble friend Lord Shaw-cross, who is still not well enough to be in his place this afternoon, feels very strongly on this point—that the qualification on the appeals in relation to contempt cases ought to be put on the same basis as that to which the noble and learned Viscount has agreed in the habeas corpus cases. I think that that is sufficient to explain the object of these Amendments, and I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 38, leave out ("(2) to (4)") and insert ("(3) and (4)").—(Lord Chorley.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the noble Lord has explained the purpose of the Amendments. There is the objection that they are defective in that they leave untouched lines 41 to 44 of subsection (4) of Clause 13, which qualify the circumstances in which subsection (2) of Clause 1 is to apply. But in any case, I think that the arguments that I used in relation to the noble Lord's last Amendment to Clause 1 apply even more strongly in the case of contempt. I do not think that there can be any justification for giving a right of appeal to the House of Lords without the need to obtain leave to appeal.
It might be convenient if I just said what the effect of the existing provision is, so that the noble Lord and his friends can consider it. The effect of Clause 13, as it stands, is that in contempt cases (a) there is one unrestricted right of appeal from an inferior court, a Chancery Palatine Court, a single Judge of the High Court (or person having the powers of a Judge of the High Court), with a further right of appeal to the House of Lords if the court appealed from certifies that a point of law of general public importance is involved in its decision and that court or the House of Lords gives leave to appeal; and (b) there is a right of appeal from a Divisional Court or the Court of Appeal dealing with a case of contempt at first instance, as well as from the Court of Criminal Appeal and the Courts-Martial Appeal Court, to the House of Lords with the leave of the Court below or that House.

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I hope I have made it clear that there is this unrestricted right, and in the case of the Divisional Court, of course, the appellant has to get leave; but he has not got to show that it is a matter of general public importance where he is appealing from a decision of first instance. The principle, as I said, is to give one right of appeal which is either entirely unrestricted or, in the case of the House of Lords, requires leave from the first decision on the case; then, after that, in the case of a second appeal, the restrictions must apply. I feel that that gives all that can reasonably be required.
But I should like to put to the noble Lord and his friends, who I know have given so much thought to this question, that a multiplicity of appeals in contempt cases is undesirable; and, after full consideration (and I have been considering this matter for months), there does not appear to me to be any case for giving a second right of appeal except where a point of law of real importance is involved. The noble Lord was good enough to say on Committee stage—he has been very fair in his arguments—that he thought that more than one appeal in contempt cases will rarely be necessary, but he doubted whether I was right in laying so much stress on the newspaper cases. But in all cases the clause gives a general right of appeal against the finding of the court below; and, as it is proposed to be amended, it makes it clear that an appeal will lie at the instance of the defendant even where the court says that there has been a contempt but makes no order against him. That is the effect of one of my other Amendments. So, although I am aware that I have not given full satisfaction, I hope that the noble Lord will appreciate that I have tried to weigh his points, and I think he will agree that I have come a considerable way to meet them. I hope, therefore, that he will not press his Amendment to-day.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I should like to say that, while I feel that we have not got 100 per cent. perfection in this Bill on this matter, we have obtained a very considerable improvement on the position as it exists in our law at present; and I am sure that every lawyer is very grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for what he has done in this
52
regard. I appreciate that in this world one can never, or very seldom, get 100 per cent. of what one is after, and in the circumstances I do not propose to press this matter any further. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this, again, is mainly a drafting Amendment. There was some doubt as to whether subsection (5) carried out its purposes, and these doubts are allayed in the revised subsection which is now before your Lordships. I will willingly go into details, but I know that there is a lot of other Business before the House, and unless your Lordships ask for anything I will move with these words: I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 1, leave out subsection (5) and insert—
("(5) In this section 'court' includes any tribunal or person having power to punish for contempt; and references in this section to an order or decision of a court in the exercise of jurisdiction to punish for contempt of court include references—

(a) to an order or decision of the High Court or a county count under any enactment enabling that court to deal with an offence as if it were contempt of court;

(b) to an order or decision of a county court, or of any court having the powers of a county court, under section thirty, section one hundred and twenty-seven or section one hundred and fifty-seven of the County Courts Act, 1959,

but do not include references to orders under section five of the Debtors Act, 1869, under any provision of the Magistrates' Courts Act, 1952, or under any provision of the County Courts Act, 1959, other than the sections referred to in paragraph (b) of this subsection and sections seventy-four and one hundred and ninety-five so far as they confer jurisdiction in respect of contempt of court.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15 [Appeal in habeas corpus proceedings]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this is the Amendment which is really my substitute for Amendment No. 1, set down by the noble Lord, Lord Chorley. We discussed it when Amendment No. 1 was before the Committee. I think your Lordships are all acquainted with the point, and I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 3, at end insert—
("() In relation to a decision of a Divisional Court on a criminal application for habeas corpus, section one of this Act shall have effect as if so much of subsection (2) as restricts the grant of leave to appeal were omitted.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Second Schedule [Modifications of Act in relation to Northern Ireland]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this Amendment adds, as a further provision which is to apply to the Bill's application to Northern Ireland, a provision that any reference to an enactment is to include reference to an enactment of the Northern Irish Parliament My Lords, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 21, at end insert ("and any reference in this Act to any enactment shall be constructed as including references to an enactment of the Parliament of Northern Ireland").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, might I ask your Lordships' permission to pass this Amendment with a verbal alteration to the Amendment as printed? That is to say, after "section six", about two-thirds of the way down the new subsection—"section six of the Debtors Act (Ireland), 1872"—there should be inserted "or section six A"? This Amendment is a Northern Irish adaptation consequential on the new subsection (5) of Clause 13, to which I have referred. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, leave out lines 41 to 45 and insert—
("(2) For subsection (5) there shall be substituted the following subsection:—
'(5) in this section "court" includes any tribunal or person having power to punish for contempt; and references in this section to an order or decision of a court in the exercise of jurisdiction to punish for contempt include references—

(a) to an order or decision of the High Court or a county court under any enactment enabling that court Ito deal with an offence as if it were contempt of court;

54

(b) to an order or decision of a county count under section fifty-seven or section one hundred and forty-one of the County Courts Act (Northern Ireland), 1959,

but do not include references to orders under section six or section six A of the Debtors Act (Ireland), 1872, under any provision of the Summary Judisdiction Acts (Northern Ireland) or under any provision of the County Courts Act (Northern Ireland), 1959, other than the sections referred to in paragraph (b) of this subsection and sections seventy-one and one hundred and forty so far as they confer jurisdiction in respect of contempt of court'.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 12, 13, 14 and 15 are drafting Amendments or consequential drafting. With your Lordships' approval, may I put them together and so save time? If any of your Lordships has any point on them, I shall of course be only too pleased to explain them more fully. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 18, line 7, leave out from ("to") to end of line 8 and insert ("prisoners or other persons suffering from mental illness or other mental disorder")
Page 18, line 7, leave out lines 46 to 48.
Fourth Schedule, page 21, line 9, at end insert—

"45 & 46 Vict. c. 50.

The Municipal Corporations Act, 1882.

In section ninety-two, in subsection (6), the words from 'except' to the end of the subsection.

47 & 48 Vict c. 70.

The Municipal Elections (Corrupt and Illegal Practices) Act, 1884.

In section twenty-eight, subsection (7).")

Fourth Schedule, page 21,line 25, at end insert—

("12, 13 & 14 Geo. 6. c. 68.

The Representation of the People Act, 1949.

In section one hundred and fifteen, in subsection (6), the words from 'except' to the end of the subsection.

In section one hundred and forty-nine, subsection (10).")—

—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.

PROFESSIONS SUPPLEMENTARY TO MEDICINE BILL
4.58 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read:
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will be disappointed at missing a speech by my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham, but he returned, not exhausted but somewhat extended, by his American visit, and I am here to-day in his place.
This is a short though fairly complex Bill, devised and presented for the benefit of seven separate professions, the patients they serve and those members of the medical profession whose work they supplement. The seven professions are: chiropodists, dietitians, medical laboratory technicians, occupational therapists, physiotherapists, radiographers and remedial gymnasts. They are all highly skilled and highly trained professions requiring the protection and status that this Bill is designed to give them. I should explain that, as first presented to another place, the Bill included eight professions: the seven I have named, with the addition of the speech therapists. It is quite possible that, one day, eight professions will again be included in these provisions—eight, or even more, up to the limit of twelve, for which allowance is made in the Bill. But during the passage of this Bill through another place, the speech therapists, for reasons which they clearly explained, voluntarily withdrew from its provisions.
The main object of the Bill is the registration, training and discipline of the members of these seven professions on the broad lines of earlier legislation of the same nature, such as the Medical Acts, the Dentists Acts, the Nurses Acts and the Opticians Act of last year. It will be necessary to give some history of this particular piece of legislation, but I shall try to keep this as short as possible. In doing so, I shall forfeit some opportunity of explaining the time taken to bring it before Parliament. If your Lordships have any questions upon this point or upon any other, it may be for the convenience of the House if I say a few words, by leave, at the end of this debate.
The introduction of the present statutory registration scheme has been an ob
56
ject of Government policy for a good many years. Its history can be said to begin in 1949, when a series of eight Committees were set up under the chairmanship of Mr. Zachary Cope (now Sir Zachary Cope) to consider the supply and demand, training and qualifications, of certain medical auxiliaries employed by the National Health Service. The Reports were published in 1951 and recommended a unified system of statutory registration for medical auxiliaries. The formula put forward was a Registration Council representing doctors, medical auxiliaries and others in approximately equal numbers, with advisory committees to the various medical auxiliaries concerned. That was in 1951.
As a first stage, and pending the formulation of such a registration scheme, the 1954 Regulations were made which at present govern the qualifications of medical auxiliaries for employment in the National Health Service. These Regulations cover the eight professions, including speech therapists. When they were introduced and adopted in Parliament the then Minister for Health, now my right honourable friend the Colonial Secretary, made it clear that they were intended only as a temporary measure. The Regulations, which are now in force, provide that hospital authorities and local health authorities may employ medical auxiliaries only when they satisfy one of a series of qualifications. This list of qualifications I do not propose to inflict upon your Lordships at present, though, of course, I am ready to answer any question upon them if any noble Lord should so wish.
By way of emphasising the temporary nature of these 1954 Regulations, a Working Party was set up by the Health Ministers in the same year to find out what measure of agreement could be reached among the medical auxiliaries themselves as to what form statutory registration should take. The Working Party produced a Report in the form of a draft scheme for statutory registration for eight classes of medical auxiliaries. This scheme provided for the establishment of registration boards, on which the medical auxiliaries would be in the majority, for each of the eight professions, and for a co-ordinating Council, consisting of eight medical auxiliaries, eight doctors and seven others, which

57
would have power to veto the board's proposals but not power to direct a board what it should do. The aim here was to provide a measure of self-government for the medical auxiliaries, and the main emphasis was placed on the registration boards, which would be controlled by the medical auxiliaries themselves, assisted by medical and other expert members.
A long period of negotiation followed between the Minister and representatives of the medical auxiliaries and of the medical profession to see whether title details of the scheme could be agreed. Discussion centred, as it has done ever since, on the proposed membership of the registration boards, land the powers of the co-ordinating Council. The medical profession wanted equality of numbers between the doctors and the medical auxiliaries on the registration boards, and also wished the co-ordinating Council to have overriding powers over the registration boards. The medical auxiliaries were not prepared to accept either of these amendments, as they saw in them the defeat of their object of self-government.
In the first half of 1958, a measure of agreement between the eight professions and the Joint Consultants' Committee appeared to have been reached, and the revised scheme was discussed at a conference in July of that year between representatives of all the medical auxiliaries concerned and of the same Committee. The scheme as it stood provided for each registration board to have a majority of only one medical auxiliary in its membership and the co-ordinating Council to have only powers of veto over the registration boards. These provisions were accepted by the representatives of the medical profession, so long as provision was made for any disputes between the boards and the Council to be referred to an independent arbitrator, assisted by expert assessors appointed by both sides. The medical auxiliaries accepted this proposal. Subsequently, however, the British Medical Association were unable to endorse the agreement reached at the conference and returned to the line that the scheme would be acceptable to the medical profession only if either
"the numbers of doctors on each registration board remained equal to the numbers of medi
58
cal auxiliaries, or the co-ordinating council were given over-riding powers over the Boards."
When these suggestions were put to the medical auxiliary bodies, they rejected them almost unanimously.
My Lords, in that relatively short description is contained the explanation of why it bas taken so long to bring this Bill before Parliament. Your Lordships will appreciate the difficulties of reaching agreement between the seven professions, upon what they deemed an essential measure of independence, and the doctors, upon their demand for what they considered adequate representation. The doctor's interest in all this is very plain. When a consultant calls for treatment by one of these professions for a patient, that patient remains the doctor's responsibility, and clearly a conscientious doctor must be perfectly assured of the qualifications of his fellow professional before doing so. The present provisions represent a nice balance between the seven professions and the medical profession under whose general direction they work. I hope that the imaginations of noble Lords will enable them to understand why this commendable outcome has taken the time it has. Much is owed to the Cope Committee's Working Party, who did a great deal of hard work to provide the basis of the Bill.
The present Bill provides machinery for registering members of seven professions, and for regulating their professional education and conduct. It also provides for the setting up of one registration board for each of the seven professions concerned and of a Council which will be responsible for the co-ordinating and supervising of activities of the boards. The Council will consist of 21 members—7 representatives of the supplementary professions, 7 medical practitioners, and 7 laymen, including the Chairman. On all the boards, the supplementary professions have a majority of one, and their insistence upon this seems reasonable in view of the intimate concern of the members with the affairs of their professions and their members. The minority consists of doctors, experts in professional education and such additional specialists as are appropriate to the individual board.
The functions of the Council are co-ordination and supervision, and are described in subsections (2) and (3) of

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Clause 1. Its work of co-ordination will be especially important in view of the number of professions covered by the Bill. It will also provide a central secretariat and will deal centrally with financial matters. The general tasks of the boards will be the promoting of high standards of professional education and professional conduct among members of the professions concerned. To this end they will have the functions of preparing and maintaining registers, of making rules dealing with a number of matters related to the registers, and of preparing and approving courses of training.
When this Bill becomes law, the professions concerned will cease to be subject to the National Health Service (Medical Auxiliaries) Regulations, 1954, to which I have referred, and the intention of my right honourable friend the then Minister of Health will be carried out. His words during the debate on these regulations were:
"I regard it as highly undesirable that the Minister of Health should concern himself with qualifications in this sort of field unless it were inevitable. This is only a temporary measure and must be considered as such".
Perhaps I should say a word about the speech therapists. Until the Report stage in another place, they were included in the Bill, together with the seven other professions. But shortly after its introduction they indicated that, even though they had been concerned in all earlier discussions, they were not happy about the detailed proposals contained in the Bill and that the profession as a whole wished to withdraw from it. It was the view of my right honourable friend that they had nothing to lose by remaining in the Bill and a good deal to gain, and he made very considerable efforts to persuade them to reconsider their decision. In this he was unsuccessful, and they were therefore excluded from the Bill, by Government Amendment at the Report stage. My right honourable friend did not, and does not, accept the view that the speech therapists are not a profession supplementary to medicine; but, for the time being at least, they have gone their own way. If at some future date, they should reconsider, it will be open to them to apply to contract in.
Noble Lords may notice that the rôle proposed for the Privy Council is some
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what larger than that assigned to it in other similar measures. There are two main reasons for this. The first is that, as I have emphasised, the Bill is concerned not only with the supplementary professions but also with the medical profession and their special relationship and interest in the courses of treatment involved. The second is that the Bill covers seven professions—it could even be regarded as covering the ground of seven separate Bills, and it establishes seven boards, together with a Council, to co-ordinate and supervise their work. As I have recorded, the main points of difficulty have been the composition of the boards and the relative powers of the boards and the Council. As the medical profession had repeatedly pressed for either equality of representation on the boards or for overriding powers to be given to the Council, neither of which was acceptable to the supplementary professions, the Government decided that the proper solution would be to leave the supplementary professions in a majority of one on each board, the Council with powers of general supervision, but for the avoidance of possible deadlocks (to which the medical profession attach considerable importance) to leave decisions on certain matters (such as courses of training and qualifications) subject to the final approval of the Privy Council. The Privy Council already has wide experience in exercising such powers in other registration schemes and so is well acquainted with the kind of problem involved.
My Lords, with one exception I think I can pass fairly rapidly over the detailed clauses and Schedules of the Bill after this general review. Perhaps I should deal with the exception, first of all—it occurs in the Second Schedule. This Schedule deals with the constitution of investigating and disciplinary committees and their procedures, including the appointment of legal assessors. Most of this is in common form, but this month produced a new development with the publication of the Report of the Committee of my noble and learned friend Lord Simonds, and I think I must take up a few minutes of your Lordships' time in explaining the position here.
Paragraph 2 of this Second Schedule, as originally drafted, empowered disciplinary committees to administer oaths, and also conferred express powers for

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the parties to proceedings before a committee to obtain writs of subpoena. At the Committee stage in another place a Government Amendment was moved and accepted removing these express powers to secure the issue of writs of subpœna. This resulted from the Government's decision to set up a Committee under the chairmanship of my noble and learned friend Lord Simonds
"to consider to what extent and subject to what condition, subpoenas (or in Scotland citations) should be issuable to secure the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents before disciplinary tribunals; and in particular to consider whether subpœnas should be issuable to secure the production before such tribunals of evidence obtained by police officers in the course of criminal investigations".
It is quite clear how the appointment of this Committee affected the Second Schedule as originally drafted, but in seeking to remove the express powers initially conferred, my right honourable and learned friend surmised that the recommendations of the Simonds Report might require them to be put back. In fact, the recommendations of my noble and learned friend, Lord Simonds, published some days ago, are entirely explicit on this point. The Committee says in paragraph 15 of the Report:
"We therefore recommend that express statutory power to secure the issue of writs of subpoena should be conferred on those statutory disciplinary tribunals that do not now possess it. We further recommend that if Parliament sees fit to create additional disciplinary bodies in the future they should also have the power for the reasons we have given".
Consequently it is proposed that at the Committee stage of this Bill, which is set for Tuesday, June 28, an Amendment will be moved by my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham to restore to this Schedule the express powers for the issue of writs of subpœna, which were struck out at the Committee stage in another place, shortly after the appointment of Lord Simonds's Committee. I trust that this will be agreeable to your Lordships, but since my noble and learned friend himself is, I am happy to say, going to speak later in this debate, the House will no doubt know a great deal more of this matter within some minutes than I should be capable of explaining in the entire afternoon.
That is the only complication that I am aware of in the Bill as set out, and
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for that reason I have thought it better to bring it forward, out of its proper order, before proceeding to the list of clauses. Clause 1 deals with the establishment of the boards and the Council. Clause 2 deals with the establishment and maintenance of registers by these boards and places a duty upon each board to prepare and maintain a register, and also to have that register primed, published, and put on sale to members of the public. It also enables the Council, with the consent of the Privy Council, to make rules governing registration fees. Clause 3 describes the qualifications entitling a person to be registered. Clause 4 lays down the procedure for the approval of courses and training, qualifications and training institutions.
Clause 5 provides for the supervision by boards of approved institutions and of examinations leading to the approved qualifications. Clause 6 lays down titles which may be used by persons registered and penalties for improper use of those titles. Clause 7 describes penalties for fraudulently securing or trying to secure entry of a name on a register, and Clauses 8 and 9 define the disciplinary machinery for removal of names from the register and for the hearing of appeals against removal. Clause 10 provides machinery for extending, restricting or modifying the application of the Act to supplementary professions in the future. This clause was altered in another place, and an Affirmative Resolution of both Houses is now required to effect such changes, whether additions or removals. Clause 11 empowers the Privy Council to take action in default of the Council or of a registration board, and Clause 12 lays down certain procedures to be followed by the Privy Council in exercising those powers under the Act.
The First Schedule deals with the constitution of the Council, the constitution of the boards, and with supplementary provisions relating to the Council and to the boards. The Second Schedule deals with the constitution of investigating and disciplinary committees to be set up under Clause 8 and with the procedure of the disciplinary committees. I have already referred to the Amendment by the Government which will affect Paragraph 2 of this Second Schedule, but I might

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make a reference to another recommendation of Lord Simonds's Committee, in Paragraph 45 of the Report, which reads:
"Any disciplinary tribunal should have available to it legal advice not only for assistance in the conduct of its hearings generally, but for its guidance in ruling on the submissibility of evidence and of schemes of privilege".
Paragraph 4 of this Second Schedule already provides that a legal assessor should be present at all proceedings before disciplinary committees.
My Lords, I hope that I have covered the purposes of this Bill. If at the beginning, and despite my promise, I laboured the gestatory stages at greater length than might have seemed necessary, it was with the object of emphasising how delicate the negotiations have been and how reluctantly certain concessions have sometimes been made. The Government think that in these provisions is contained a just and workable formula for all concerned. The exact work undertaken by these professions is, as I have said, skilled and highly trained. It is also extremely varied as between one profession and another, and if questioned I can satisfy the curiosity of noble Lords upon the various natures of this work as I have fairly recently satisfied my own. The numbers involved are not large, but their work is vitally important and of benefit to a large proportion of the public. Although still regarding myself as possessing an abnormal degree of rude health, I find that I have already benefited from the ministrations, seen or unseen, of the chiropodist, the medical laboratory technician, the physiotherapist and the radiographer. There is no doubt that I should benefit also from the ministrations of the dietician, the occupational therapist the remedial gymnast, and most of all, as no doubt your Lordships will now be ready to bear witness, of the speech therapist. It is therefore in a personal, as well as a public, note that I ask your Lordships to give this Bill a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord St. Oswald.)
5.20 p.m.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, has moved this Bill with his usual eloquence and clarity, although at times I thought he had rather a tongue-twisting brief. We, too,
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welcome this Bill, as it was welcomed in another place. It was fifteen years ago that I had to give a Fabian Lecture on "the Professional Man in the Socialist State." I may say that I was doing it only because the noble Lord, Lord Shawcross, had to go to Nuremberg at the time. To-day we are adding seven new professions, if not to a Socialist State, at least to the socialised sector of our society, for most of the members of these professions will be working for most of their time within the National Health Service. As the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, has said, it would have been eight professions but for the decision of the speech therapists to opt out of the provisions of this Bill. They decided, I think, that they were closer to education than to medicine, and I suspect that they were not uninfluenced by the fact that they thought they would do better under the Whitley Council for Education than under the Whitley Council for Health. We all regret this, but they may be right, for the professions covered by this Bill are, I am sorry to say, very poorly paid.
The Bill not only creates seven new professions but leaves the door open for the creation of more by Affirmative Resolution. We wonder why it is up to twelve? Is there any mystic reason for the figure twelve? Are there going to be only twelve supplementary professions to medicine in due course? Would it not be better to omit this limitation, for who can say what will be the nature of medical advance in the years ahead? There may well be a growth in supplementary professions out of all recognition and out of all our beliefs nowadays. So I hope this limit will go, as it seems an unnecessary restriction.
The Bill does, however, raise the question of what are the criteria of a "profession," because here we are creating seven new professions—and we can admit more under the Bill—without really thinking what we are doing. The boundaries between trades, professions and occupations are a little blurred. I looked it up, and the earliest use of the word profession "I could find was the following:
"Joseph, the spouse of Mary, was by profession a carpenter."
The four classical professions are the Church, the Law, Medicine and the Army. We speak, perhaps a little loosely,

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of "the theatrical profession". But one would suggest that the essence of a profession is responsibility. The membership of a profession should guarantee to the public the reasonable competence of the individual concerned. This is achieved partly by the individual maintaining his competence and professional traditions, and partly by the profession collectively supervising the training, examination and subsequent conduct of its members.
It implies a proper body of knowledge—a corpus of knowledge—which can be taught, and in which competence can be assessed. It implies, too, that there should be no free market in the service offered to the public, but that the fees charged shall be reasonable and not more than reasonable. It implies, moreover, that there shall be no individual advertising to obtain clients or patients. Finally, it implies that the occupation itself is something of real and generally accepted value to society. In future, claims to admission for professional status will certainly grow. One has watched with great interest the endeavours of the advertising agents to persuade us that they are a profession, though they certainly do not hesitate to advertise themselves; and I should say that they are not yet a profession.
As the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, has said, this Bill had a long gestation. Sir Zachary Cope did a very good job, and I would pay tribute also to Mr. J. E. Pater, of the Ministry of Health, who chaired the Working Party which had a very difficult time indeed. This had one good effect, for it changed the collective title from "Medical Auxiliaries" to "Professions Supplementary to Medicine", which is a much better way of describing these excellent people. Most of these professions come into operation at the request of a registered medical practitioner, but the public can approach sonic of them direct—for example, the chiropodists. In the past, doctors have been in some doubt about their responsibility for the work done for their patients by these medical auxiliaries. We think that under this Bill the position is now quite clear—at least we hope it is.
In another place, Miss Edith Pitt, speaking for the Minister, said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 614 (No. 28), col. 939] that in future doctors will not take responsibility nor be held respon
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sible for work done by these new professions. This is very important indeed, particularly with regard to one of these professions. The activities of these workers are mainly concerned with people who are not in any great danger as to life or limb, but there is one group of people who are handling an exceedingly lethal weapon—I refer to the radiographers, whether doing therapeutic radiography or diagnostic radiography. We make, and have been making in this House, very stringent regulations for the control of radio-active substances, but the danger from radiology is far greater than the danger from radio-active substances. I think it should be clearly recognised that under this Bill we are transferring, so far as I can see, the doctors' responsibility to the radiographer when the radiographer is doing his job.
The Faculty of Radiologists—that is, the doctors who specialise in this subject—have been a little worried about this, and my old friend Professor Smithers, Professor of Radiology at what was the Royal Cancer Hospital and is now the Royal Marsden Hospital, the son of Sir Waldron Smithers, and one of our leading radiologists, has approached me about this; he has asked whether it would not be possible to make sure that on the board for this particular subject there could be guaranteed to be representation of at least one therapeutic radiologist and one diagnostic radiologist. There are, in fact, three doctors appointed by the Royal Colleges who might fulfil these criteria. I hope we may have a guarantee of this, because it is very important indeed that the public and the radiographers themselves should be safeguarded in this way. Apart from this point, the Council and the Board are about right as to numbers and composition.
As the noble Lord has said, the only point of serious controversy has been about the balance between the different professions, but we are generally happy with the solution which has been arrived at. I should add that in another place the Government have been most generous in meeting the points which my honourable and my right honourable friends have raised, and there is little in the Bill as it stands with which we do not wholeheartedly agree.

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Much has been said in another place about the value of the services to the community of chiropodists, dieticians, occupational therapists, physiotherapists, radiographers and remedial gymnasts. We, too, add our praise and gratitude for the fine work they are doing. Without them, modern medicine could hardly function. I should like to make a special mention of the chiropodists. I remember that when my wife was Governor of Holloway they got a chiropodist in, and it was a thing which made the biggest difference to the life of the women in Holloway. It would seem a silly little thing, but it was a matter of major importance. I found exactly the same in industrial medicine. If there was one service the women workers particularly appreciated it was chiropody.
I should also like to pick out for extra comment, since they were not mentioned in another place, the medical laboratory technicians. Most people do not see much of them, but they are very important people indeed. They work under the clinical pathologist, and he is one of the most important folk in modern medical diagnosis. Most of his work is, however, done for him by the medical laboratory technicians. In a sense the clinical pathologist is the architect and the medical laboratory technician the master craftsman. He is in fact very much like the mediæval craftsman in the way he goes about his job, and I like to think they are the same sort of people. They play a great part in research and the advancement of medicine. In my own first research work I was immensely helped by the medical laboratory technicians. I have always looked on them as colleagues and one is delighted to welcome them to-day as fellow professional workers.
There is a danger of overdoing professionalism. It is natural enough that each and every group in the National Health Service should now want to have professional status—for example, the operating theatre technicians. One might imagine that operating theatre technicians were surgeons or anæsthetists. In fact they are theatre porters. They have a real value to society, but I do not think there is a proper body of knowledge which can be passed on and for which people can be trained—there may be one day, but there certainly is not yet. The question
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may arise in the not too distant future as to whether dental hygienists should be included, especially in view of the shortage of dentists, and I would ask the Government whether they could be included under this Bill or whether they are adequately covered by the Dentists Act, 1957. The other groups, about whom I am wondering whether they could come in, are the social workers and the psychiatric social workers; the Bill might be a valuable way of granting them the kind of status they so badly need to do their jobs in future.
Clauses 8 and 9 give the Boards disciplinary powers. Some people are a little worried about this power to strike off the register. But, of course, it is not an exclusive register. There are two kinds of professional register. There is the medical kind of register, which is a list of people entitled to call themselves doctors, and the nurses' register, which is a list of people entitled to call themselves State Registered Nurses. But other people are allowed to nurse and be doctors. On the other hand, there is the exclusive register, the kind that the dentists have, when no one can practise dentistry except a dentist or a doctor. The registers under this Bill are of the non-exclusive kind; they merely register the title of registered chiropodists, or whatever it may be; but people can still practise without being on these registers, so striking off is not such a terrible thing.
But it is interesting to wonder exactly what they will be struck off for. If a chiropodist "cuts one to the quick", is that a ground for being struck off? One can just imagine unprofessional conduct on the part of a masseuse, but what about my friends the medical laboratory technicians: how does one commit unprofessional conduct when doing a blood count or perhaps taking blood? I suppose it is possible. What about the remedial gymnast who is drunk in charge of a car, or the dietician or occupational therapist who gets caught shoplifting, or the radiographer who gives a Press interview? But these are really matters which will have to be worked out by the boards and the Council. The noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, mentioned the power to subpœna. We entirely agree with the necessity for the disciplinary committees or boards to have the power recommended by the Simonds Committee. We

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think the Report is very sensible, and if there are to be professional inquiries there must be a power to get the evidence to make these inquiries a reality.
There is one serious matter of considerable public importance which was not exhaustively discussed in another place, and that is the matter of registration fees. For the professions there are again two types of registration fee. There is the once-for-all registration fee which we as doctors pay; we pay, I think, 12 guineas when we qualify, and we are in for life unless we are struck off. Then there are the annual or periodic registration fees; you pay them every year or every other year as the case may be. Nurses, incidentally, are of the same group as doctors; they pay once for all; whereas midwives have to register every year. It is a very undesirable thing that people should go off the register simply because they fail to pay the fees. In the groups we are dealing with, the people are relatively poorly paid, and many of them are women, and I think that in every case there is a serious shortage. What happens is that the women get married. In the case of the physiotherapists there is an enormous exodus from the profession by the age of about 27, and it is the same in these other groups, the radiographers and the chiropodists. We want them back as soon as we can have them, after they have finished having their families. A few minutes ago, my noble friend Lord Pethick-Lawrence was encouraging women to go back to work early after having had a baby. These are just the sort of people we want to get back to work. They will have to make a choice: they will have to reregister and pay a fresh fee, or they may go off and do some quite different job, and that would be a national loss.
But this does raise the question of cash. The Opposition cannot amend the Bill in this respect in this House. Only the Government could do anything about this, and they would have to do it having regard to the need to put the Bill through the other place, if we were going to make any cash help for the Council. In medicine we have built up a nest-egg for our General Medical Council by the large influx of fees when the doctors all had to register for the first time. The result is that the General
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Medical Council have a fair nest-egg, bringing in annual income, enabling them to carry on with annual fees only. I would ask the Government, most earnestly and sincerely, to consider whether they could not make a small grant to start this Council off. I have in mind no great sum of money—perhaps £25,000, or even less than that. If they could do it, I think it would enable the Council to start without having to impose an annual charge on all the registered professions. I believe it would be an enormous help to them.
That is all I want to say about it. We welcome our new professional colleagues. We welcome this Bill. We hope they will set their standards high and build up and maintain worthy traditions. At present they are still all too poorly paid, but in the long run professional status will help them to get the financial recognition which is their proper due. More important, it will enable them to do better the work they are already doing well.
5.37 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, before I say the few words I propose to say in support of this Bill should like to declare an interest in the professions concerned. I have just completed five years as President of the Occupational Therapists Association, and at the same time I am one of the members of the management committee for the London Foot Hospital, which is one of the biggest chiropody training schools in the country. That is as far as I go there.
I think that the Bill we are discussing now is a very good Bill. It will do a great deal to encourage the supplementary professions. It has always seemed to me that when a professional body of people come to the stage when they become registered, it is a sign that they have got a form, have matured and have really taken their place in the world. They know what their work is; they know what their responsibilities are going to be, and they can now take their place among the other registered professions. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, in welcoming to our ranks seven more professions. It is quite a big number, coming all at once, when there have been only four or five for so long. I am sure we welcome them warmly. There has been, I know, a certain amount of doubt among some of the professions as to whether they should come into this

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Bill or not—whether they wish to form a register. They have, I am pleased to say, come into the Bill. They have joined with their colleagues and, although they did not particularly want to when it was first discussed, I am sure that, as time goes on, they will find that they have done a valuable thing and will not look back with any sorrow that they name into the Bill and co-operated with the Minister in trying to get this legislation on the Statute Book.
The first months or a year following the registration of a profession are bound to be difficult, because some people will probably come on to the register who would not have come on were the register not being formed for the first time. There are bound to be a number of people who are doing and have done good work, and who will do good work in the future, but will not have had the professional training that they should have had. They must come on the register because their work is just as good as that of the trained people. They have acquired their skill by experience and not by being trained by any particular course. That is a state of affairs which causes some trouble and disquiet at the start; but it does not go on for long, for these people will soon become absorbed into the register, and no new people will come in who have not been through one of the approved courses. So, although there are difficulties, I do not think they will be serious or will last for long.
I should like to support what Lord Taylor said about the difficulty in regard to the registration fee. When the medical profession first acquired its register, a long time ago, there were enough doctors in the country to pay a big enough fee to enable the General Medical Council to be set up. That Council have continued in being ever since by reason of doctors paying a fee of either 10 or 11 guineas a year. Naturally, the Council say that they have not got any money, but they manage to continue, and there is no call upon a doctor to pay more than one registration fee. It seems to me that if you are going to pay a fee every year it is a rather discouraging expense. I do not know what the fee is going to be, but I imagine it will be something of the nature of £2 or £2 10s., or something of that sort. Supposing
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that one's total salary is between £400 or £500 a year, or, it may be, £600, that comes to quite a large fee; and when at the same time one has to pay a fee to keep up membership of a professional association, which will probably be about 4 or 5 guineas a year, it means a total expenditure of 7 or 8 guineas a year.
I should like to support Lord Taylor in his plea that the Government might be able to help to set up the Council. Failing that, it might be better if the professions were themselves to charge a rather bigger fee to start with. People would not mind paying a big fee when they have just passed an examination, because they would be pleased and excited at having got that part of their work done. Alternatively, their parents might pay it. I think the imposition of a yearly fee on these unfortunate people is to be deplored. Another course would be for their salary to be increased. Again, I think that that is a matter which will probably have to occur, because they are doing extremely good and valuable work for little money. That matter does not arise out of this Bill, but it is worth mentioning.
Supposing they have to pay these two fees a year, it is quite possible that they might think it simpler to pay the fee for registration, which they must pay by Statute, rather than to continue with their professional association. That, I think, would be a real disaster, because I am sure that by being a member of a good professional association they learn to keep up standards. I think it would be a disaster if these were to fall by the wayside because of the fee that their members may have to pay. One of the recommendations of the Cope Committee—I think it was in paragraph 89—was that the cost of the Council and the professional administration expenses should be met from the National Health Service. No doubt that was merely a recommendation in the Report, but it shows that the matter was carefully considered by this body and was thought to be a perfectly right and proper thing.
The other point which Lord Taylor raised and which I should like to support is that it is difficult for women who get married and go away and have a family, and are thus forced to give up their profession during that time, to have to pay another fee when they want to come back.

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They have to get themselves put back on the register because they have lapsed from it merely because they have been engaged in other work which is quite as valuable—having a family. When they want to come back they have to go through the formality again of applying to come back, and they have to pay a fee once more. When a doctor who does not wish to practise for four or five years wishes to exercise his profession again, he has no formalities at all to go through.
The last point I should like to make is again one in support of what Lord Taylor said. He spoke of the great difficulty in regard to radiographers. They deal with one of the many dangerous things in the modern world of today. I believe it to be one of the most dangerous of all. I think it would be a great advantage if somebody from the X-ray profession was permanently on the Board, if not on the Council, so that he can really see that those people get some help in dealing with what is, as I have said, one of the most dangerous things in the world. It would probably be necessary to have more than one person; the work of the diagnostic X-ray people is so different from that of the therapeutic X-ray people, and it might be necessary to have advice from both sides of the profession. Those are the few points upon which I wished to make some observations in giving a welcome to this Bill. I hope that your Lordships will give it a Second Reading and will allow it to pass into law without undue delay.
5.48 p.m.
VISCOUNT SIMONDS: My Lords, I propose to direct my observations to a single point, and to do so very shortly. The noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, who introduced this Bill in a speech of admirable clarity and, if I may say so, enviable audibility, indicated the point upon which he expected me to make a few observations. It is just this. The Bill establishes a disciplinary committee with most formidable penal powers—a power to deprive a member of the particular profession, at any rate, of the best opportunities of earning his livelihood in his chosen profession. It is quite true, as the noble Lord, Lord Taylor has said, that though he be removed from the register he yet can practise. But nobody, I suppose, would doubt that his chances of earning
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eminence in his profession will be greatly marred; and there is no doubt also that he will be damaged in his profession if, when he is brought before this disciplinary committee, he suffers an adverse decision.
How, then, can it be just that all the available evidence should not be brought before that committee? I venture to think it is quite elementary. Ask yourselves, if you will, what is your position if you, being a member of that profession, are charged with an offence which may result in serious consequences; if you know that there is evidence available, if the witness would but give it, which might turn the event in your favour, but he, because he is callous, ungenerous, does not want to be bothered, or for whatever other excuse a man may choose to give, refuses to come, with the result that you stand in grave jeopardy. I say beyond all doubt there should be a power to issue a writ of subpœna to compel such a man to come forward. Undoubtedly, it is an inconvenience, but there are many inconveniences in life. I suppose nothing can be more inconvenient than the public duty of sitting on a jury, but this is one of the inconveniences that a man may suffer.
Now I ask your Lordships: what is the position, not of the man charged but of the prosecuting body whose interest it is to maintain the honour of their profession and to see that a man who, as they think, is unfit to practise it should not continue to practise it to the great detriment of the public? They have information which leads them to believe that a certain person is not fit to practise. They take proceedings against him, and then, it may be at the last moment, the very evidence on which they are to rely is not forthcoming. Again, for whatever reason it may be, a potential witness refuses to appear, and so it will happen, to the great disadvantage of the public, that somebody will be allowed to continue to practise when he ought not to be allowed to do so. It is clear that in that case, again, the man should be compelled to come forward and give evidence.
Then look at this matter from the point of view of the disciplinary committee themselves, who are exercising a judicial function. Perhaps I could speak of this more clearly than I can of the position

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of a prosecutor or an accused. What is the position of a tribunal, faced with the plea from one side or the other: "If only there were the evidence available I could convince you"? That might be true or it might be false. But what are the Committee to do except decide on the evidence before them and come to a decision which they must know they might not have reached had there been other evidence? Where a tribunal of this kind is set up everything demands that evidence should be available; otherwise justice is not done.
That was the conclusion reached by a Committee over which I had the honour to preside, consisting only of my noble and learned friend, Lord Morris of Borth-y-Gest and myself, and, so that Scotland should not be left out, Lord Thomson, now Lord Justice-Clerk, formerly Lord Advocate in the last Government. We reached that conclusion unanimously. I am very pleased to hear from the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, that Her Majesty's Government propose to adopt our Report and to replace in the Bill the provision in regard to subpœnas. I was glad to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, that the proposal was supported on his side.
I want to occupy the House for two further minutes to say something on one aspect of the Report relevant to the Bill on which there has been a great deal of misunderstanding. The last words of the appointment were:
"In particular, to consider whether subpœnas should be issuable to secure the production before such tribunals of evidence obtained by police officers in the course of criminal investigations."
For some reason that I have not been able to discover, that has been thought to have something to do with telephone-tapping. Of course, it has nothing at all to do with that: it is a question of whether a policeman, like any other man, should be amenable to the jurisdiction of the court and be compelled to give evidence of matters which come under his personal observation. A policeman, of course, is a civilian, if in uniform; and whether or not in uniform he should be amenable to give evidence on matters which come under his observation. That does not mean in any sense that the police authorities need volunteer information to professional bodies, or
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even that they need give information if asked to do so.
What is meant is that a policeman who has seen or heard something which is material should be compelled to come and tell the tribunal of it. That does not mean that he may not have a good ground of privilege for refusing to give an answer, for the question of privilege is not touched upon here. It may be that if the information he has has been obtained by telephone-tapping, that is a reason why he should claim privilege. On that I say nothing. The question is whether a policeman should be amenable to subpœna to come and give evidence. I believe that he should, and I hope that there will be no qualification of any kind when this new provision is inserted in the Schedule to the Bill. Upon that, if necessary, I shall have an opportunity of saying something more when the Bill is in Committee, should Her Majesty's Government propose to reintroduce the Clause. I hope that when the matter is introduced there will be no doubt about that.
5.55 p.m.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, I congratulate Her Majesty's Government upon having brought this Bill forward and secured its friendly passage through another place, and having presented it to your Lordships to-day for Second Reading. I consider that the structure of the Bill is a sound one. The supervisory or co-ordinating Council, with a nice balance between the old and the new professions and the layman, is good, and the Boards or Committees with a majority of the supplementary workers is satisfactory.
I am glad that the supplementary professions stood up against the doctors in this matter and refused to be browbeaten and placed in a minority by them. Doctors are most important people, but they are not the only people who can do us good; and often
"A little of what you fancy does you good."
I am glad, therefore, that those in these supplementary professions have been given their majority on the Committees, not only because of their dignity and status but also, as I think, because of their wisdom. That is not to say that I am in any way opposed to doctors, but. I am glad in this instance to see what

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is put in the Bill. The Register will bring protection to the entrants into this field, as well as prestige, and I welcome it on both those grounds.
I should declare my special interest in this matter which arises out of no financial interest, direct or indirect, but because it has been my duty and pleasure in the last 40 years to help a particular group of workers who are to be included on the Register. They are, broadly speaking, the physiotherapists generally, and especially among their number blind physiotherapists, and particularly among them, the blinded soldier physiotherapists who have been my protegés. Bodies representing physiotherapists—the Chartered Society of Physiotherapists, the St. Dunstan's Organisation and the Civilian Blind organisation—have now worked in harmony for a very long time and have done much to uphold the status of the profession and encourage those who have taken the examinations from year to year to take longer courses and learn more complicated subjects, and to get a very good grounding so that they become very expert, with sometimes three or four years' training. That has been a splendid work upon which, I believe, we ought to congratulate the bodies concerned, and particularly the Chartered Society.
The noble Lord opposite rightly said that most practitioners in most of these professions—and especially is this the case with physiotherapy—will be working for the National Health Service. That is true, but do not let us forget that there are still a good many in private practice. I am glad to say that in spite of the expectation that the National Health Service would put the private physiotherapist out of business, it has not done so—at least, not so far as my St. Dunstan's friends are concerned. There are 110 of them in this country, 28 in other parts of the Commonwealth, and about 200 other blind persons, and more than half of them are in private practice. They include many young men blinded in the Second World War. And very good they are, and very successful. Nevertheless, if we add together all the blind men and the sighted men who work in the physiotherapy profession we shall still find, when the register comes to be set up, that the women will outnumber the men by 9 to 1. That cannot be helped. I am not
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even prepared to say it is a pity. I think it is just one of those things. But I very much hope that the women, though they must outnumber the men, will not swamp the men. And I make a plea that when the Government set up the first Committee, which they will do by arbitrary methods before the elections come along at a later stage, they will set a good example by trying to make sure that at least one man—and preferably, as I should wish, a St. Dunstan's man—might be a member of the Physiotherapy Committee.
It is a pleasant thought that as a minor aspect of our passing this Bill to help these professions generally we may be doing a good turn to this group of men who have themselves done so well. It is 40 years since the Chartered Society of Physiotherapists started their campaign to get recognition and registration for their members; and these 40 years caused me to look up the words of an old song which will be familiar to some Members of your Lordships' House, one verse of which says:
"Forty years on, growing elder and older,
Shorter in wind as in memory long,
Feeble of foot and rheumatic of shoulder,
How will it help you that once you were strong?"
My Lords, it will help you when you are suffering from the debility caused by your arduous labours in this House if you will aid these auxiliary or supplementary persons the better to do their job by establishing this register; it will help you, if I may say so without offending the doctors by advertising my friends the "St. Dunstaners", if you would like to ask me for the name and address of one of them; and it will help you if you give a Second Reading to this Bill.
6.3 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, like every other speaker who has taken part in this debate, I should like to extend a general welcome to this Bill. That is not to say that there are aspects of it which I think cannot be improved, and some of them I think are debatable. I have a slight interest in this matter because for some years I was President of one of the institutes of chiropody, and therefore I can, I hope, claim to have some idea of the aims and desires of that particular group of people who are dealt with in the Bill. My noble friend Lord Taylor referred to the question of the closed

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profession; and I feel that we ought to ask ourselves what is the purpose of registration under this Bill.
Presumably, everybody who is to-day practising at all will be able to secure registration. The terms of the Bill are so widely drawn that it is difficult to see who can be excluded under the provisions. People need have no particular qualifications. At the worst, they have had no academic qualification and merely have been engaged in practice for some time: they have experience. To-day people become chiropodists in a variety of ways. There are people who take a three-year course, and there are a two-year course and a one-year course, and there is even a correspondence course which lasts six months. One can become a chiropodist by having that course, and then one need not take any academic course at all. One can become, as a few people are, even a part-time chiropodist. There is one case I heard of, of a person who is normally a lorry driver but who carries on chiropody as a sideline. I presume that that person is going to be registered. If he is not registered, if the members in their wisdom decide that such a person has not the requisite experience—and for all I know he may have; he may have been carrying on this series of operations for years—what then? He can still carry on as a chiropodist. And the same applies, of course, with the other professions.
As regards the ordinary public, the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simonds, made play of the fact that it might be a serious matter to be struck off the register. I should not think so. I should think that a person who is normally described as a registered chiropodist (the same applies to a registered member of any of the other professions) can go on calling himself a chiropodist, and the public on the whole would be no wiser. I should have thought, therefore, that it would have been preferable to come to a decision that registration is essential to enable a person to practise one of these professions. I recognise that there are arguments to the contrary. I do not think that they are very strong, and I will not debate it at this stage because one can more appropriately deal with the matter in Committee. But I think that the balance of
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advantage for the protection of the general public requires that only registered members of these professions should, after a certain time, be able to carry on their profession, and that without registration they cannot carry on. That is the first point I wanted to make.
The second is that I am not too happy about the provision for discipline. The Bill does not attempt to define "infamous conduct", one of the grounds upon which a person can be struck off the register. It leaves it to the disciplinary committee from time to time to decide what is to be regarded as infamous conduct. It is far too vague a term, and I consider that we should be rather more definite in this matter, instead of using these vague words. I am also a little apprehensive about the powers of the Board. They are going to be men of little or no experience. It is true that in course of time, by making mistakes, they will learn; but in the course of those mistakes a good many people may suffer. Although I am not prepared to-day to say what is a more appropriate alternative, I have some doubts as to the wisdom of setting up seven disciplinary bodies and seven bodies which will advise as to whether there is a case, and then leaving it to them, subject, I agree, to an appeal to the Privy Council.
I was very interested to hear the speech of the noble and learned Viscount, which was both audible and clear. Those are two descriptions which he regards as a merit on the part of the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, which I wholly approve of, and certainly he set a very good example. I agree with nearly everything that he said. I agree that it is important that both the person accused of infamous conduct and the boards should have the right to subpœna witnesses. I was not altogether in agreement with him as to the pronunciation of the word "disciplinary". I prefer that to "disciplinary", but that is a matter of taste and opinion.
At this stage, may I congratulate the noble and learned Viscount on having produced this very valuable Report, which I am sure will be appreciated by all members of the professions which have to deal with these problems? The noble and learned Viscount rather complained of some misunderstanding about

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the last words of his Report, but I can assure him that there is a certain amount of apprehension about police evidence, and particularly police evidence that is obtained by tapping the telephone. There was a case recently—and the noble and learned Viscount will remember it—where a member of a profession was struck off the register of membership of his profession almost entirely on evidence obtained through police tapping of the telephone.
VISCOUNT SIMONDS: My Lords, if the noble Lord will forgive me, that was not a case of telephone tapping at all, I think. In any event, if he is thinking of the same case as I am, it is a case which is very shortly coming before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council; and therefore I, as least, was careful not to say anything about it.
LORD SILKIN: In fact, my Lords, I was not going to say anything more about that particular case, but I feel that there is a general sense of abhorrence as to any evidence obtained and given in proceedings in that way; and while it may be that the Report of the noble and learned Viscount does not specifically deal with this question, I think we ought to be extremely careful to ensure that somehow such evidence is not acceptable if given by police witnesses in the course of hearings on discipline.
As I said at the outset, I am sure that, broadly speaking, all the professions which are covered by this Bill welcome it. I think many of them would prefer to be in a position to exclude those who are not qualified to be registered, and I consider, as I have said, that in the interests of the public that should be the case. However, these are matters which we can deal with at a further stage of the Bill; and in the meantime we certainly feel that this Bill should receive a Second Reading.
6.14 p.m.
LORD GEDDES: My Lords, there is little to add to what has already been said about this Bill, but there are one or two points which still seem to call for additional emphasis. It is sometimes difficult to decide whether or not one has a declarable interest when addressing your Lordships' House, and while I have no interest to declare in the tech
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nical sense, I have a close personal interest in the profession of occupational therapy through a student who is just completing the three-year training course. Through that introduction I have had an opportunity on several occasions to meet the leaders of that profession, both in London and in Edinburgh, and my remarks are therefore primarily a reflection of their views, although I have been informed that the Bill also has the full support of the other six professions affected by it.
In considering this Bill it is important to bear in mind how widely different are the professions affected by it; and, again, how widely they differ from the profession to which they are supplementary. It is almost as though one were to go to the zoo and find one cage for the lions, another for the tigers and another for all the other animals; for your Lordships will realise that there is little in common between a medical laboratory technician and a remedial gymnast. Having said that, however, I must add that it cannot be denied that this is a good Bill, although its value may be much greater to some of the professions concerned, some of whose members may have learned their trade merely by practice, than to the more highly scientific professions included within its provisions. There was at an early stage the proposal that the medical profession should have at least equality on the Council for Professions Supplementary to Medicine. The present Bill gives these seven assorted professions a bare majority, provided that in a vote they are unanimous among themselves. This would seem to be the least they can ask, and it is hoped that on this important point there will be no change in the present pattern of the Bill.
The greatest danger in the working of this Bill arises through the provision that these seven professions must be saddled with the cost of its operation. Unlike the great professions, these are little professions of relatively little people—and, as has already been said, they are relatively lowly paid. After three years of training, an occupational therapist is entitled to a basic pay of £500 per annum; which, after statutory deductions, leaves a net income of the order of £8 5s. 0d. per week. This ill compares with the remuneration of an unskilled labourer. And, after a lifetime

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of work, the occupational therapist can expect a remuneration of only roughly £1,000 a year, or considerably less than half the average earnings in the great professions. From such meagre sums he or she must live, and in some cases support a family. Already, as has been said, there is the payment of roughly four guineas per annum for membership of the professional association; and now, in addition, another charge is to be levied for registration which might be of the order of £2 per annum. This, my Lords, may seem a trifling sum, but it is a large proportion of a week's pay at £8 a week. Indeed, it is so large as to have caused some misgivings that the young graduate might feel unable both to pay it and to support the professional association.
But it is thought that the running charges can be met, and the profession does not at present seek a continuing subsidy. However, there will be an initial expense to establish and equip the respective registries. As has been said, a rough estimate suggests that a sum of the order of £20,000 to £25,000 will have to be found for this purpose, and among these professions it is very hard to see where such a sum can come from. In paragraph 89 of the Cope Report there was a recommendation that assistance should be provided from National Health Service funds to meet these initial expenses; and, with the noble Lords, Lord Taylor and Lord Amulree, I would ask Her Majesty's Government whether they would not reconsider making an initial grant to help in the establishment of the registries if the professions themselves undertake to maintain them thereafter. Having said this, I commend this Bill to your Lordships for a Second Reading.
6.18 p.m.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I am most grateful for the welcome that has been given throughout the House to this Bill. I will try to answer most of the questions put to me in the course of the debate. My noble friend Lord Taylor asked me why the limitation of twelve was placed on the possible future number of professions under these provisions. The reason is simply this: that it is considered that a greater number would be too unwieldy for one piece of legislation or for one Council, and if the
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Council and the number of boards grew any greater, it would no longer be workable.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, on that point, may I ask my noble friend this question? If a new profession is added, is there any alteration in the constitution of the Council? I do not think there is, but perhaps he would confirm that.
LORD ST. OSWALD: Should a new profession be added, there is provision in Clause 10, subsection (2), paragraph (c) for the Privy Council by order to vary the constitution of the Council.
The noble Lord also asked about specific professions possibly joining this registration scheme—namely, dental mechanics, social workers, and psychiatric social workers. If these three professions made application, their applications would be considered under Clause 10. They would have to be approved by the Council, by the Privy Council and then the matter would come before Parliament as an Order for the approval of Parliament.
The noble Lord and the noble Lords, Lord Amulree and Geddes, were worried about the whole question of fees and expenses of the registration boards. I know that these fears are shared by certain of the professions who are worried that perhaps their members, since they have to pay a registration fee, might be unable to keep up their contributions to the professional society, which might dwindle away or be unable to carry on with its useful functions. They are worried, I know, about such questions as whether attendance fees at Council meetings will be payable and therefore would be chargeable against the Council and whether the Council will tend to be extravagant. But the answer—at least, the potential answer—to these questions is that the professions will have influential representation on the Council and, I should have thought, will be able to make their own desires about economy felt. It is laid down that fees shall be such the Council consider will produce not more than the sums required to defray the reasonable expenses of the Council under this Act. This point was made to meet the anxiety of the professions concerned and is intended to safeguard them against the building up of unnecessary credit balances.

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I am aware of the Cope Committee's recommendation that the administrative expenses of the registration machinery arising from its general and supervisory activities should be met from National Health Service funds, while the expenses of maintaining registers should be met from fees. But in the view of others who have studied this proposal, it is doubtful whether it would be possible. The main objection is that professions are always expected to meet the full cost of their registration machinery; indeed, they are normally anxious to do so. This whole question came up in another place, and my honourable friend Mr. Charles Doughty put forward his opinion that it would be quite wrong for the professions to accept Government money in the form of a grant and thereby lose an element of their independence.
In the course of the last few days, I have interviewed representatives of all these professions, and I am bound to say that the great majority of them agree with that view, and positively stated that they objected to accepting even an initial grant from the Government to start them off. I hope that I am not directly contradicting my noble friend Lord Geddes on this point, because, when he mentioned his own interviews with representatives of these professions, I was not absolutely clear whether he meant that everything that followed was by agreement with them. My own conversations with them gave me a different impression.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, when the noble Lord says "representatives", does he mean persons officially representing the professions or representative members selected, as it were, by chance?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I mean officially representative members of the societies representative of these professions. As regards expenses and the general financing of the registration scheme, it is thought that the initial register may contain something like 25,000 names and that fresh registrations may come in at the rate of 2,000 annually. It looks as if it will be necessary to levy both an initial registration fee and an annual retention fee. But it is thought that the latter could be quite small. Something in the nature of three guineas for the registration fee and an annual fee of one guinea ever after would more or less fit the book.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would think about the point I tried to make—namely, whether it would be better to charge a bigger fee at the start, and so build up the Council, and not charge a fee for subsequent years.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I think that I am right in saying that under the terms of the Bill, the Council, who have the responsibility of fixing fees, would be free to do that; but I do not think that at the moment it is the wish of the professional representatives that this should be done. In any case, as the noble Lord will agree, it is not a matter for the Government to decide here. I hope that to some extent I can meet the anxiety of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, about the possible dropping away of members of the professions by saying that there is nothing in the Bill, or in the Government's mind, against the introduction of two rates, one for those actually practising and a lower rate for those not practising, or even conceivably no subscription at all but a slightly higher re-enrolment fee, though not so large as the original registration fee.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, would there be anything against raising the initial registration fee, in order to have life members, and a lower annual subscription?
LORD ST. OSWALD: I am sorry if I have not made myself plain—
LORD TAYLOR: If the noble Lord would excuse me: I am suggesting the alternative of a big life membership fee—say eight or ten guineas—and a smaller fee annually.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I see the noble Lord's point, but I think that that is a matter for the Council when they meet, and one which could not possibly be decided at this Despatch Box. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, mentioned that the number of medical representatives on the Radiographers' Board should be unchanged but that some of them should be nominated by the Faculty of Radiologists. This is a point which I am perfectly certain could be sympathetically considered before the next stage of the Bill.
The noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simonds, as I foresaw, gave, in a few

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lucid and compelling words, the reasons for bringing back the powers of subpœna into the Bill at the next stage. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, felt that the terms of the Bill were drawn so widely that nobody could be excluded, and that even if they were, it would not matter to them. I do not think that I can go into the matter of why I disagree with him. I can only remind him that many of these professional people are employed in the National Health Service and that the provisions of this Bill take the place of the 1954 Regulations, which exclude from employment with the National Health Service anyone who is not qualified. I presume that the provisions are as strict as the Regulations, but the strictness or laxness of the qualifications accepted is very much a matter for the professions themselves. I should have thought that their professional colleagues would be the first to insist that proper standards of professional conduct and achievement were maintained.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I have no doubt that proper standards will be laid down and observed. I was not making any point on that. My concern is that, having laid down these standards and having said that everyone who is registered must comply with them, there is nothing to prevent any member of any of these professions from carrying on practice without registration. I presume that registration will be refused because people do not comply with the standards laid down. Nevertheless, they can practise on the public, although admittedly they will not practise under the National Health Service.
LORD ST. OSWALD: I do not know to what extent that could be called a matter of opinion, but I should have thought that if there were an official standard recognised and set, and this system existed of maintaining professional standards among those who were within it, people seeking professional treatment of this nature would insist upon a registered professional. As has been emphasised in the course of the debate, most of these professions—although I agree not the chiropodists—work under a doctor or through the advice of a doctor; those out in the cold would be very much out in the cold, and it would be due only to the casualness
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of the patient if he did not insist on the best treatment, which would presumably be from a professional enrolled under one of the registration boards. That is all I have to say. I should like to thank all those who have taken part in the debate for giving this Bill such an encouraging welcome.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

COMMONWEALTH TEACHERS BILL
6.32 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, this Bill is concise, but it embraces within it a subject which is of deep significance to the modern Commonwealth. Both the Montreal Economic Conference and the Oxford Conference which followed it, in which the seeds of this Bill were sown, recognised that education was the indispensable foundation of political democracy and of the economic and social advance of countries in the twentieth century. I think it was agreed—it was certainly the policy of the United Kingdom Government, and I ant sure it was agreed by all parties in the United Kingdom—that we should take a decided lead in trying to help the Commonwealth in this corporate effort to expand the scope and the quality of education.
There were three ways in which the Oxford Conference suggested that we could do this. The first was to increase the number of places for students, both undergraduate and post-graduate, in our universities and technical colleges; the second was to add to the supply of teachers to go from here to posts overseas; and the third was to take an increasing number of persons from the Commonwealth countries and train them in this country to teach. We never can be satisfied with the results that we achieve in this field; nevertheless I think we can be reasonably proud of the part which this country is playing and the facilities which we are providing. Out of a total of about 44,000 students from overseas in this country to-day, 32,000 are from the countries of the Commonwealth. In the next ten years we hope to provide from the expansion

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which is going to take place in our technical colleges some 4,000 additional places—that is, additional to those which are now enjoyed by the students from the Commonwealth.
I think your Lordships will be glad to know that, following upon the Montreal and Oxford conferences, 220 Commonwealth scholars are going to arrive in this country this autumn—the first scholarships to be given following the Montreal conference—and 400 bursars are going to arrive to take their places in the teacher training colleges of this country. Lord Scarbrough, who has taken on the chairmanship of the Commission who select the Commonwealth scholars, tells me that they are fulfilling their highest expectations and are boys and girls of very high quality—or, perhaps I should say, men and women of high quality, because a great many of them are taking post-graduate courses.
The intake of students on this scale and on the expanded scale to which we look forward in the next ten years could not be made without sacrifice. As noble Lords know, there is a clamant demand among the boys and girls of this country for places in the universities and technical colleges. Nevertheless, I am sure that everybody in the country supports the inclusion in our expansion programme of a high percentage of Commonwealth students, because the service of education is one of universal benefit to humanity and one in which we are peculiarly qualified from our experience and traditions to give.
The second part of what I have to say concerns the supply of teachers from here to go overseas and the attraction of individuals to come here to attend our teacher training colleges. The long-term objective, of course, is that each Commonwealth country should develop its own educational resources. But the best short-term help which we can give is to send out from this country as many teachers as we can enlist to fill key positions in the educational field in overseas and Commonwealth countries; and secondly to train here and to equip individuals from the Commonwealth countries so that they may take a leading part in their own educational organisation when they go home. Very large numbers of teachers are going from this country to the Commonwealth
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countries overseas every year. I am not going to name a figure; it is very large. But it is a little misleading, because a great many go to the countries which are already developed, and we want to see a better distribution so that the newer Commonwealth countries get a greater share. Again, the supply of teachers in large numbers overseas cannot be done without sacrifice, because we are all the time in this country, of course, trying to reduce the number of children in a class in school But, again, I am sure it is the wish of the House and the wish of the country that that sacrifice should be accepted.
Now that the Government are providing the money and creating the opportunity, I hope that there will be large numbers of volunteers among people who are interested in teaching, because their services will be enormously appreciated, particularly in the new Commonwealth countries; and I feel quite certain from what I have seen when I have been overseas to these countries that when they return the teachers themselves will feel not only that they have been rewarded, but that they carry a greater authority and influence in their profession here by reason of the additional experience that they have gained overseas.
Lastly, I should like to express my gratitude for the co-operation which has been shown by the teachers' representatives, by the local authorities, by the churches, and by the teacher training institutions, who have pledged themselves to make this scheme for the supply of teachers to the Commonwealth work. They have devised a draft scheme of secondment to which we hope that all the education authorities will subscribe and which we hope they will all adopt. I will not give your Lordships the details of it, but under it salary and pension rights and career and promotion prospects are safeguarded. There, again, the Minister of Education has set up a national committee to supervise the supply of teachers for overseas. Out of an expenditure of £6 million in the five years, which was agreed at the Oxford Conference to be the United Kingdom's subscription, £3¾ million will go for the purposes of this Bill and the incidental purposes connected with it. It is very important that in this matter education should be a continuing service, and therefore machinery

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has been set up, and there is now a Commonwealth liaison unit in the field of education which will ensure that consultation over the whole field is regular and continual. The first Director is a very distinguished Indian, Dr. Jha, who was lately Vice-Chancellor of Benares University, and the next conference to review the progress will be held in New Delhi in 1961–62.
I thought it worth giving that short review of these educational facilities to your Lordships' House, and to use this Bill as an excuse to do so, because I hope that this, which I think is a promising start, will be endorsed by your Lordships and the Bill will be given your unanimous approval. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill now be read 2a.—(The Earl of Home.)
6.41 p.m.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords my noble friend Lord Dalton asked me to apologise to your Lordships because he had to attend a committee on university halls of residence. We welcome this Bill very warmly indeed. We welcome all its objectives, and it is a great pleasure to be assisting in putting it on the Statute Book. We think it will be easier to get teachers to come to this country than to make arrangements for our teachers to go to Commonwealth countries. There is a little reluctance to be overcome, on account of the problems which the noble Earl has mentioned—the problems of pension rights, of losing one's place on the career ladder, and the feeling that one has not the chance of applying for a post immediately it is advertised if one goes overseas.
We are delighted to hear what the noble Earl had to say about the draft scheme which has been worked out with the local education authorities, and we hope very much indeed that it will be universally accepted and universally successful. If I may say so, I only wish that there was a similar scheme for dealing with medicine in the Commonwealth, particularly in the more underdeveloped Commonwealth countries, where we have had just this sort of difficulty with the National Health Service. But we have not yet had a Bill like this to overcome it. We warmly welcome both the Bill and what the noble Earl has said.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, for taking over for his noble friend and giving a welcome to this Bill. It is my keen desire that we should get in touch with all the employers in industry and the professions in order to try to see what arrangements can be made, whether in medicine or in any other profession, to create a Commonwealth service of this kind. So if the noble Lord has any ideas, I shall be a very ready recipient.
On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived.

GHANA (CONSEQUENTIAL PROVISION) BILL
6.43 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, the House by now, after recent years, is familiar with the pattern of this Bill, because we have had similar Bills in the case of India and Pakistan. Ghana has lately, by a vote in the Assembly, and then by a plebiscite, decided that it is the wish of the Ghanaian people to be a Republic. When Dr. Nkrumah, the Prime Minister, came to the Prime Ministers' Conference, he requested that that Republic of Ghana should be accepted as a full member of the Commonwealth. As your Lordships know, the Prime Ministers readily and unanimously gave their consent. As your Lordships also know, when that happens the United Kingdom Parliament has to pass enabling legislation. That is required because, for instance, if it were not passed, there might be doubts whether Ghanaian citizens would remain, in United Kingdom law, British subjects and Commonwealth citizens or whether, for instance, the preferences granted at the Ottawa Conference could be legally made to cover Ghana. This legislation removes all doubts and places Ghana as a Republic in the position to enjoy exactly the same advantages she enjoys to-day.
I do not think I need elaborate any further. This Bill is in common form when a country in the Commonwealth chooses to become a Republic. There is just one point to which I should draw attention. Ghana does not wish to continue with appeals to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, but would

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like outstanding appeals to be heard. This Bill provides that that can be done. I am confident that this change from the Monarchy to the Republic will not diminish the feeling in Ghana for the Queen as Head of the Commonwealth, and will not lessen the ties between Ghana and this country. I have pleasure therefore in moving this Bill, and I ask your Lordships to give it a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Home.)
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I should like to say, on behalf of my colleagues here, how much we welcome the bringing of this Bill to the House for its approval. It marks the end of negotiations which have been of very great importance and, indeed, has established an important event in the history of the Commonwealth. The great fight for freedom in which, in the last Great War, this country engaged, on top of the First Great War, has led to a more rapid expansion of the general idea of the British Empire becoming a great Commonwealth family of nations. This is just another one in the succession of events in that direction.
I am delighted that the Ghanaian people and their Government have decided to remain inside as a member of the Commonwealth. You may look at the present world situation as you like, but it is certain that the great struggle in the world will be in the direction of free societies of peoples who have great and common objectives for the advancement of their particular nations. On the other hand, there is a struggle to erect the kind of monolithic state in which some stated objectives may be very good but which does not rely upon the free contribution of the individuals to the achievement of those objectives, but relies, in the ultimate, upon compulsion. It is a great event at any time in our history when we add to our family of free nations another, as Ghana is being added to-day of her own volition.
I think we ought to pay this tribute—we so often have controversies in debates on controversial matters in the House—to those who have been responsible on our side for the conduct of the negotiations in this matter. Although I suppose that in the first instance the
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transfer of a territory from a Colonial to a Commonwealth Government is a matter that lies with the Colonial Office and the Secretary of State for the Colonies, I think we should like to congratulate the noble Earl the Leader of the House, as Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, on his part in this and similar matters. We hope very much that the people in Ghana will feel the warmth of the welcome that this country gives to it. We should like them to know that we never forget that, in the great struggle for freedom in which we were engaged, so many of their own people fought side by side with those of our own homeland and other countries in the Commonwealth. We all wish to see them not only gain this independence within the Commonwealth, but succeed to great economic development, and we wish them a general and continuous rising of the standards of education and enjoyment of standards of life such as we have been able to obtain for ourselves. We therefore welcome this Bill with very great pleasure. We wish the people of Ghana and her Government for the whole of her future the greatest possible happiness and the greatest possible amount of unity with us and our objectives that we can jointly secure together.
6.50 p.m.
LORD SPENS: My Lords, may I add a word of welcome to the historic fact that Ghana has decided to remain within the Commonwealth? I cannot add to what the noble Viscount has said in his words of welcome, and I want only to address a few short remarks to your Lordships on Clause 2 of the Bill.
Clause 2 embodies the arrangement that has been made, as I understand, between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Ghana about pending appeals to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council: as soon as Ghana becomes a Republic no new appeals will come from Ghana to that great tribunal. It is not for us, in my view, ever to complain of what a newly independent country thinks fit to do; and certainly independence entitles it to decide as it thinks right as to what should be the final Tribunal to which cases in law shall go from that particular country. But it does cause one, I venture to think, some anxiety that one more unit of the Commonwealth has

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drifted away from the great unifying legal influence of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. Of course I know from my personal experience in India that although appeals no longer come to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council the respect that India continues to have for decisions of the Privy Council remains just as great as before.
None the less, as the years pass we are finding more units of the Commonwealth drifting away from the Judicial Committee; and that does mean, it seems to me, that in the days to come we are going to have a number of Supreme Courts dealing with very much the same fundamental law, both doctrinal and positive, that they have inherited from us during the periods they have been in the colonial state. As the years pass that will mean, unless some other unifying Court can be found, that we shall see a tendency to differing decisions and differing drifts away from each other, although basically the laws which are being administered have very much in common.
If I may just speak shortly from my own experience in India, where there were twelve High Courts administering the same basic law, the position was that unless there had been a unifying Court at the top one would find in the course of 20 or 25 years differing decisions on exactly the same points. There a unifying Court, such as the Judicial Committee, or my own Federal Court, was of the greatest value in keeping the law unified within reasonable means. I do not suggest for a moment that local customary law, or indeed local land law throughout the community, requires a unifying Court; but what I do suggest is that now, in these days of great commercial enterprises, which operate all over the Commonwealth, and indeed over large parts of the world as well, it is very desirable that the commercial laws should be kept as unified as possible. It is of the greatest inconvenience to commercial firms to find that what is recognised as valid in one State is invalid in another: that although the fundamental law is the same there are conflicting decisions of Supreme Courts.
There is one other point about the desirability of a unifying Court; and I think it particularly applies to the new
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units of the Commonwealth who are applying for investment from overseas. There is no doubt a good deal of extra confidence given to investors if in fact there is a Supreme Court to which they can finally go and which is not one which is entirely local in appointment and in administration. The three essentials, it seems to me, of a Court are, first of all, how the judges are appointed; secondly, what their tenure of office is; and thirdly, how independent they are of the Executive in their country. It was, of course, the great value of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council throughout the whole of the colonial period that the Judicial Committee, the highest Court to which citizens of the Empire could go, was entirely independent, both in appointment and in influence from everything local.
It has, of course, been asked for some time, as the drift away from the Judicial Committee sitting in this country was continuing, whether there were any other means by which a Court could be established which would appeal to these people. For a long time a peripatetic Privy Council was advocated by Lord Tomlin and others, but in my view the time has now passed where that would serve the purpose. It is difficult to see exactly how in the Republics you could deal with it in the same way as you could in the Monarchical part of the Commonwealth. Indeed there is this difficulty: that in the new units, particularly, to accept the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, even though it went and sat in their country, would be regarded to some extent, I believe, as a derogation of their sovereign powers, because, after all, it is a Court of the United Kingdom.
Therefore there has grown up the suggestion that it might be possible to constitute some other Commonwealth Court as a Supreme Court of appeal for different units of the Commonwealth. I think it is felt by many units of the Commonwealth that they have—as indeed they have—a number of most eminent judges whose services would be acceptable outside their own particular units. I think the judicial talent throughout the Commonwealth is very great indeed at the present time. There are courts of appeal all over the Commonwealth with most eminent judges sitting on them, and I do

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not believe that it should be impossible to devise a system by which a Commonwealth Court of Appeal could be constituted. I realise that there are great difficulties as to how the judges should be selected. That would have to be a matter for each particular unit of the Commonwealth. It would be possible to get a panel of Commonwealth judges who would be available—of course nothing could be made compulsory on any single unit of the Commonwealth—and ready to accept appeals from units of the Commonwealth who were willing to send appeals to them.
It seems to me that the time has come when an attempt might be made to form such a Court as that to which units of the Commonwealth who were willing to do so should send certain types of cases which were really common to all Mem7 bets of the Commonwealth whose basic law had come from this country. I believe that if that could be done it would prevent, in the next 100 years, our British doctrines and legal doctrines going off in all sorts of diverse directions without any Court at all to unify them and keep them on common lines. I think it would be a great service to both the commercial and trading communities of the Commonwealth if something of that sort could be done. I believe that such an idea has been discussed, but I think that if time is allowed to pass before anything is done we shall lose one of the great common contacts and one of the most valuable links which hold the units of the Commonwealth together.
7.2 p.m.
LORD HEMINGFORD: My Lords, in supporting this Bill, may I, as an old and grateful friend of the people of Ghana, join with other noble Lords who have spoken in wishing them well in the future? They have chosen, and freely chosen, a change in their Constitution. That change has been noted in this country with understanding. We are glad, indeed, that they have chosen to remain within the Commonwealth. When I had the privilege of revisiting Ghana a few months ago, one of the many happy impressions I received was of the profound respect and regard felt by the people there for Her Majesty the Queen and for the Royal Family. Another was of the esteem that had been won by that greatly respected Member
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of your Lordships' House the present Governor-General. It is a paradox that we have often found true in our history, that the loosening of formal bonds may lead to the strengthening of the ties of friendship, and we all earnestly hope that that will continue to be true of the very happy association between the United Kingdom and Ghana.
7.4 p.m.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I am grateful to the House, and I am sure the Prime Minister and people of Ghana will be too, for the welcome which has been given to this Bill. The choice for a Commonwealth country as to whether it remains a Monarchy or a Republic is, of course, one entirely for the people of that country. It is of great satisfaction, now that the people of Ghana have chosen to be a Republic, that they have of their own free will decided to remain within the Commonwealth. I was grateful to the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition for recalling the modest part which I have been able to play in recent years in this matter. Doctor Nkrumah himself has testified that his belief is that the Commonwealth is the best guarantee of freedom in the modern world, and, with great respect, I agree with him.
My noble friend Lord Spens has raised the question of the position of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in the modern Commonwealth, and he has said that the question of whether there might be a Commonwealth Court was one which was raised in particular by Senator Cooray of Ceylon in the recent discussions at the Commonwealth Prime Minister's Conference. He was not dogmatic as to the sort of court it might be, and he had very much in mind, as my noble friend had in mind, the value that a court might be to the newer members of the Commonwealth and to the smaller members of the Commonwealth who have found or might find it difficult to build up a skilled independent judiciary of their own, at least for a good many years.
There was also in mind the point of confidence which, as my noble friend has pointed out, is so important when countries wish to attract investment. This matter was remitted by the Commonmealth Prime Ministers for the particular

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concern of the United Kingdom Government and of their own Governments, and each representative went away to study the matter. In particular, my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor is studying it at this moment, and my noble friend Lord Spens can rest assured that, it having been remitted for consideration by the Prime Ministers, no time will be wasted. If my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor has any proposals to make, certainly they will be most sympathetically considered by his colleagues at home in the United Kingdom Government; and, of course, they will then have to be remitted to the Commonwealth Prime Ministers to see what their view is. I have always hoped that something like this might be found, so I hope that the Lord Chancellor will be fortunate in his researches. My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MERCHANT SHIPPING (MINICOY LIGHTHOUSE) BILL
7.7 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I feel that perhaps a word or two of explanation of this Bill would not be out of place, and I am prompted in that feeling by the remark of one of my colleagues recently who said to me, "What is a Minicoy, anyway?" Of course, Minicoy is a small coral island between the Laccadive and Maldive Islands on the East Coast of India. I am perfectly certain that it is charming and beautiful, and if I have taken no steps to check that, I think we should be happier if we continued to assume that it was.
During the eighteenth century Minicoy Island, together with the Southern Laccadive Islands, was in the possession of the Cannanore family, who also had estates on the Indian mainland. The head of this family, in which the succession went in the female line, as customary in that part of India, was known as the Adi Raja—the Prince of the Deep. In 1908 Imbichi Bibi, the lady who was the current Adi Raja, ceded her sovereignty over the Laccadive Islands and Minicoy to His Majesty the Emperor of India, to form
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part of His Majesty's Indian dominions as from July 1, 1905. The 1935 India Act and the 1947 Indian Independence Act transferred the sovereignty over the Laccadive and Minicoy Islands from the United Kingdom to the Government of India.
But in 1885 the Board of Trade had built a lighthouse on this island, and this remained the property of the United Kingdom Government. Your Lordships may think that this is a little odd, but I am advised that as the Government of India Act, 1935, did not transfer the ownership of the Minicoy Light to the then Government of India, it followed that the title to this property remained undisturbed by the 1947 Act. In due course the Government of India suggested that as the lighthouse was situated on Indian territory it was not appropriate that it should be administered by an agency functioning outside India and they asked that it should be transferred "free of cost and with all its assets" to be administered by them.
The United Kingdom Government thought that was quite reasonable and proper, and the management of the lighthouse was taken over by the Indian Government on the 2nd April, 1956, it being understood that the legal transfer of the property and the clearance of the financial issues would be dealt with afterwards. At the end of 1958 the Indian Government asked for the early enactment of legislation to permit this to be done and were told that it would be introduced at the first opportunity, and this is it. The purpose of the Bill, therefore, is to empower my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport to transfer to the Indian Government the title to the lighthouse on Minicoy Island and also to hand over the assets attached to the lighthouse.
The financial position is rather complicated and I do not think I need go into the full details unless I am asked to do so. To cut a long story short, the Indian Government, since April, 1956, have borne the cost of running the Minicoy Light, but the dues which have continued to be collected and received by us since then are held in a separate account of the General Lighthouse Fund. The calculation of the other earlier assets in respect of this light as at April 2, 1956, has also been made, and this figure is assessed, as nearly as can be, at £15,000.

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It is not possible to determine the figure quite precisely, because the Minicoy Light was one of a group of three from which it is now divorced. Apportionment is perhaps the right word to use, and this has been done as accurately as possible.
That sum of £15,000, plus the dues collected since April 2, 1956, which are estimated at about £10,000, and interest at the rate of 4 per cent. on the whole, will, if your Lordships grant the powers asked under this Bill, be paid to the Indian Government, from the General Lighthouse Fund. It is a question of regulating the position from one of de facto to one of de jure. I have nothing more to say except that the Indian Government have been informed of all this, and I hope your Lordships will give the Bill a Second Reading. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Chesham.)
7.12 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, like the two previous Bills which were introduced this afternoon, this Bill is warmly supported by my noble friends on this side of the House. The noble Lord, Lord Chesham, in introducing the Bill, dealt with the early history of the islands. I would inform him that they have a longer history. In fact, they were discovered by Vasco da Gama in 1499 when he was making one of his great voyages to the eastern part of the world which, as we know, brought great wealth to Portugal and also to ourselves. The word "Minicoy' also has some significance to travellers though it depends on the direction in which they are travelling. If one is travelling East, the word "Minicoy" is a very pleasant sounding one, for once the Minicoy Lighthouse has been passed one is out of the monsoons and the rough weather; and when travelling West, the word "Minicoy has a rather evil sound, for then one runs into the bad weather.
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I have only one query to make in regard to this Bill. In his final words the noble Lord said that the Indian Government have been informed of this Bill. I would ask the noble Lord the Minister whether he can assure the House that the terms of this Bill have received the approval of the Indian Government; because this is really a ratification of a business deal, and, obviously, if we are asked to ratify it we should have some assurance that the other party have also accepted the terms.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, on the particular point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, I would say that the Government of India have been fully informed on this matter. They have asked for this action for some considerable time, and the arrangements which I have explained to your Lordships have been put before them in full. While I cannot stand here and say that they have approved of them—and I have no knowledge that an actual approval has been signified—they have certainly not disapproved of or contested them in any way. I believe it has been worked out as fairly and squarely as can be, and I do not think the noble Lord need have any misgivings on the subject.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, can the noble Lord give an assurance that the Indian Government have had details of these terms for a time sufficiently long to have permitted them to object if they disapprove?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, the answer is Yes, I certainly can.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

SALFORD CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
House adjourned at sixteen minutes past seven o'clock.