Sitting of 24 March 1960

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS
GLASGOW CORPORATION CONSOLIDATION (GENERAL POWERS) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Read the Third time and passed.

PETITION

  Atmospheric Pollution, Cardiff
  Mr. Callaghan: I beg leave to present a Petition to the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland signed by the residents of Splott, Cardiff, who seek relief because of the constant and unavailing struggle which they are pursuing against dirt and grit in the industrial area of my city.
  There are dumps of iron ore stacked within a few feet of bedroom windows, and there is a constant succession of white dust which makes the housewife's battle an extremely difficult one.
  They pray for a number of reliefs, and, in particular, they ask relief from Parliament that the Minister of Housing and Local Government should make Regulations controlling strictly the amount of smoke and the times of the emission of smoke so that they may themselves have a few amenities in their daily lives, and the Petition concludes:
  And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will every pray.
  To lie upon the Table.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  HIGH COMMISSION TERRITORIES

    Educational Services
    Mr. Marquandasked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations what proposals he has approved for the expansion of educational services in the High Commission Territories.
    The Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. C. J. M. Alport): The expansion of educational services in the High Commission Territories is one of the High Commissioner's constant aims. He is now considering what expenditure to plan for in the coming financial year. I am therefore not able to give details of his proposals.
    Mr. Marquand: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that at the present time a very critical situation exists in South Africa and that we should do all in our power, and very much more than we have done hitherto, to build up the educational services in the High Commission Territories? Is it not a fact, for example, that in Basutoland, whereas 60 per cent. of the children are in primary schools, only 1,400 children have yet had the opportunity of a secondary education? Will the hon. Gentleman undertake to press as hard as he can for a big improvement in education services?
    Mr. Alport: Yes, we are most anxious that there should be progress, and substantial progress, in education in the three High Commission Territories. The right hon. Gentleman has referred to the needs of Basutoland. On the whole, Basutoland has made considerable progress in the educational field with the assistance of the three great missionary societies that are working there. From our point of view, the position of the Bechuanaland Protectorate is one for great concern in this matter, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that we will do what we can to improve the situation.

  BASUTOLAND

    Pius XII College
    Mr. Marquandasked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations what request for help he has received

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    from Pius XII College in Basutoland, following upon the communication, details of which have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East, which the college has received from the University of South Africa.
    Mr. Alport: No request for help has been received from Pius XII College.
    Mr. Marquand: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that by general agreement this college has been doing splendid work, that it is the only institution of higher learning in the High Commission Territories, and that recently it has been warned by the University of South Africa that it can no longer enjoy special relationship with that university unless it conforms to the apartheid policy of the South African Government? In all these circumstances and in view of the excellent record of the college, would the hon. Gentleman now consider making a grant to it from colonial development and welfare funds?
    Mr. Alport: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for what he says. The Senate of the University of South Africa has not yet met to discuss its future attitude to the Pius XII College, but I will certainly bear in mind, and ask the High Commissioner in the Union of South Africa to bear in mind, the suggestion which the right hon. Gentleman has made with regard to financial support for the college.
    Mr. Marquand: Is the hon. Gentleman further aware that this college has stated that an annual grant of £50,000 would be sufficient to raise its standards within a very short time to the sort accepted by the University of London for special relationship? Will the hon. Gentleman undertake to accelerate consideration of this urgent matter?
    Mr. Alport: We are most anxious that this college should be and should remain in a position to give a full degree of a university standard.
    Mr. Malcolm MacPherson: If the hon. Gentleman finds that there is difficulty in obtaining special relationship with London University, will he press for some other development which will enable this college to continue to grant degrees which will be accepted and recognised in this community?
    Mr. Alport: As the hon. Gentleman will have heard, I have already said that we are most anxious that it should continue to be in that position.

  SWAZILAND

    Education
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations how many primary and secondary schools respectively, there are in Swaziland; how many of these, respectively, are publicly supported; in how many cases in each category racial segregation is practised; and how many European, African, and coloured schools there are in each category.
    Mr. Alport: There are 298 primary and 18 secondary schools in Swaziland. One hundred and sixty-one of the primary and all the 18 secondary schools receive full or partial support from public funds. Schools cater separately for either African, Eurafrican or European children. Eight primary and two secondary schools are for Europeans, five primary—two of which have secondary departments—are for Eurafricans. Two hundred and eighty-five primary and 14 secondary schools are for Africans.
    Mr. Brockway: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many people in this country will be shocked to learn that apartheid and segregation are being carried out in a British Protectorate in South Africa? Has his attention to the statement of the Prime Minister, that the best way to influence the ending of apartheid in South Africa is to have racial co-operation in our British territories? Will he take steps immediately to end this apartheid and segregation in British Protectorates?
    Mr. Alport: I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's contention. If he had full information about the situation in Swaziland, he would know that race relations there are extremely harmonious at present. It is impracticable to integrate these schools because of language difficulties and the difference in class ages between pupils in the various racial groups.
    Mr. Marquand: When the hon. Gentleman says that he does not accept

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    my hon. Friend's statement, is he denying what my hon. Friend has said about the existence of segregation in education in this High Commission Territory?
    Mr. Alport: The hon. Gentleman used the technically different word of apartheid for it. I say that it is not aparthied in Swaziland.
    Mr. Marquand: If the United States of America and every other civilised country are trying to get rid of segregation in education wherever it exists, cannot the hon. Gentleman be forthcoming about his policy?
    Mr. Alport: I think it is general experience that the objective is certainly one which we all fully accept but which takes time to achieve.
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations what is the annual cost per child of the education of European, African, and coloured pupils, respectively, in the schools of Swaziland.
    Mr. Alport: The annual cost per capita for European, Eurafrican and African pupils at schools in Swaziland is £51 10s., £15 10s. and £5 4s., respectively. Among the reasons which contribute to these different levels of expenditure are the higher overheads, which include boarding accommodation, which have to be provided for European pupils whose homes are scattered over a wide area and higher expenditure on teachers, many of whom have to be obtained from sources outside the territory. Any attempt to compare expenditure per capita must take these factors into consideration.
    Mr. Brockway: With all the excuses which the hon. Gentleman made, is it not outrageous that in an African country the expenditure upon each European child should be nearly three times that upon an African child? [HON. MEMBERS: "More."] As the hon. Member knows, I am aways moderate in my statements. In view of the crisis in race relations in South Africa, will the hon. Gentleman immediately take steps to see that we have a good record in these matters?
    Mr. Alport: One of the reasons why the cost of African education per head is lower is the level of African teachers'
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    salaries. We have recently had an investigation into that following the report of Sir Rex Surridge. I hope that the recommendations of that inquiry will be available shortly. However, I remind the hon. Gentleman and the House that this matter must be looked at from two different points of view. In taxation, which contributes to the expenditure on education, Europeans contribute £145,000 and have £66,000 spent on their children, while Eurafricans contribute £1,500 and have £9,000 spent on their children, and Africans contribute £67,000 and have £124,000 spent on their children. That must be borne in mind when considering conditions in Swaziland.
    Dr. King: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that even in the deep south in the United States of America, where segregation in education is practised, there is at least equality in expenditure on coloured and white children? Will not he do something about this shocking state of affairs?
    Mr. Alport: Resources in the United States are very much greater than they are in Swaziland.
    Mr. Brockway: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall take the first opportunity to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

  RHODESIA AND NYASALAND

    Mr. Michael Faber
    Mr. Storehouseasked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations if he is now able to state the terms of his reply to the protest received by the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations from the Association of Prohibited Immigrants of Rhodesia and Nyasaland with regard to the prohibition of Mr. Michael Faber, a lecturer at Salisbury University, and to the Association's request that a protest be made to the Federal Government.
    Mr. Alport: The writer of the letter has been informed that my noble Friend cannot comment on a decision of the Immigrants Selection Board of the Federation in a matter which is constitutionally a Federal responsibility; and that he is not aware of any circumstances

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    which would justify an approach to the Federal Government on the lines suggested.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Is the Minister aware that his feeble use of technical excuses in these matters is becoming quite nauseating? Is he further aware that the growing strength of the association mentioned in the Question is a tribute to the oafish stupidity of Sir Roy Welensky and his colleagues?
    Hon. Members: Order.
    Mr. Speaker: Even in the most interrogatory form, the hon. Member's question is out of order when he makes references of that kind.
    Hon. Members: Withdraw.
    Mr. Stonehouse: In the particular case of Mr. Michael Faber, who was—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] Mr. Speaker, in the case of Mr. Michael Faber—
    Captain Pilkington: On a point of order. Ought not the hon. Member to withdraw his disgraceful adjective?
    Mr. Speaker: I think the proper form is that I ought not to have permitted the hon. Member to ask his question further. That is the course which I should have taken.
    Mr. Thorpe: Arising out of that—
    Mr. G. Thomas: Further to that point of order—
    Mr. Speaker: I can deal with only one thing at a time. The sequence is that the original hon. Member is not allowed to ask his supplementary question. I think it conceivable that the hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) was rising to ask another question out of the original Question.
    Mr. Manuel: On a point of order. I think the House should be informed as to which word you thought it was which my hon. Friend used about Sir Roy Welensky which was out of order.
    Mr. Speaker: I should like to refresh my memory, without wasting time, but there was quite a delightful epithet attached to a word.
    Mr. Thorpe: Is the Minister aware that this country financed the foundation of Salisbury University on the basis that it should be multi-racial? Is he aware
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    that the present circumstances lead one to think that Mr. Faber was expelled for writing articles which were critical of the Government? Will he take steps to point out to the education authorities, if not to the Prime Minister of the Federation himself, that we look upon this as a gross interference with [he academic freedom of those at the university?
    Mr. Alport: The university is multiracial. There is no evidence of which I am aware to support the hon. Member's contention. One of the reasons why the Federal Government have stated that they do not wish to intervene in this case is in order not to bring a political factor into the problems of the university.
    Mr. Marquand: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that not only the Association of Prohibited Immigrants, but many distinguished professors and others from the University of Oxford, as well as the Association of University Teachers, have protested against this decision, which has caused the resignation or dismissal of a university teacher who did no more than commit some technical offence? Will not the hon. Gentleman indicate the displeasure of Her Majesty's Government at this sort of thing?
    Mr. Alport: I know perfectly well that there have been protests, but in a free country of this sort any group of indi-duals, however modest or great their situation, are entitled in these circumstances to protest; but the fact of the matter is that in dealing with a matter of this sort the Government must consider the constitutional position and the right of other Governments involved—
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We must get on.
    Mr. W. Hamilton: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I press further your rather curious Ruling to my hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Stonehouse)? You remarked, I think in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel), that my hon. Friend the Member for Wednesbury used a rather "delightful epithet", the exact wording of which you could not recollect. It seems a rather curious Ruling—
    Mr. Speaker: I am afraid that I cannot allow the hon. Member to criticise my Rulings, not from any lack of modesty, but because to do so is out of order, except on the appropriate Motion which, no doubt, the hon. Member will table if he thinks fit. I do not want to be inaccurate about the matter. I think that the phrase used by the hon. Member for Wednesbury was "apish stupidity". I might not be right. The words are within the recollection of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oafish."] I am greatly obliged. In either form, I should have taken the same view about it.
    Mr. Marquand: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Answer, I beg to give notice that I shall attempt to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

  BECHUANALAND

    Bushmen
    Miss Vickersasked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations what special procedure governs the recruitment in Bechuanaland of bushman labour for work inside Bechuanaland Protectorate or for work outside it.
    Mr. Alport: The recruiting of bush-men by recruiting organisations for employment either within the Bechuanaland Protectorate or outside it is not permitted. Bushmen are free to take up paid employment with farmers or other private employers subject to the same safeguards as other African employees in the territory.
    Miss Vickers: Does that mean that they have to make a contract before the magisrates' court by signing or thumb-printing a contract? Is there any safeguard against their being exploited?
    Mr. Alport: Under Chapter 63 of the laws of Bechuanaland, labourers have freedom to dispose of their services to whomsoever they wish. They may receive payment for the services in cash or in kind, and a month's notice must be given on either side. Any contract with an African does not entitle an employer to exact services from his family.
    Miss Vickersasked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations what developments have taken place in the
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    plan for the demarcation of reserves for the bushmen of Bechuanaland, comparable to those for the Bantu people, or for the allocation of any areas in Bechuanaland in which bushmen shall have special rights.
    Mr. Alport: My noble Friend is awaiting the results of a special bushmen survey which is being carried out by a district officer who is a trained and qualified anthropologist. The survey is expected to be completed in 1961.
    Miss Vickers: As the survey has been going on for a long time, may I ask my hon. Friend whether it is merely in one area, or is it a survey of the entire area where the bushmen are now resident?
    Mr. Alport: No. He is surveying the three main divisions of the bushmen community. It is a very difficult survey to undertake. It requires a good deal of technical knowledge, not least a knowledge of the languages, which are very difficult to understand. It has, therefore, inevitably taken a long time, but I can assure my hon. Friend that we are extremely concerned with this problem and we are trying to get the results as quickly as possible. We must, however, give the district officer time to do the job thoroughly.

  UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA

    Riots
    Mr. Footasked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations how many of the persons who were killed or wounded by the police at Sharpeville and Langa in the Union of South Africa were from Basutoland, Swaziland and Bechunaland, respectively; and what representations Her Majesty's Government have made, or propose to make, to the Government of the Union.
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations if he will state the number of British protected persons from the High Commission territories who were killed or injured in the shooting of Africans at Sharpeville in the Union of South Africa on 21st March; and what steps he is taking to ensure the safety of British protected persons now living in the Union of South Africa.
    Mr. Donnellyasked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations what grant Her Majesty's Government will make to alleviate the distress of the families of British protected persons who were killed in the shootings at Vereeniging and Langa on 21st March, 1960.
    Mr. Ginsburgasked the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations (1) how many British protected persons were killed, injured or arrested during the recent riots in South Africa;
    (2) what steps he is taking to safeguard the position of British protected subjects in South Africa at the present time.
    Mr. Alport: As I informed the House on 22nd March, my noble Friend has asked the United Kingdom High Commissioner in the Union of South Africa for information with regard to whether any citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies or British protected persons have been injured in the disturbances which took place in the Union earlier this week. The High Commissioner has not yet obtained full information, but it is reported that one Mosuto was injured. I have no details as to the circumstances in which this occurred.
    As to the welfare of dependants in the High Commission Territories, I would refer hon. Members to my reply to a supplementary question by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition on 22nd March.
    With regard to the position of United Kingdom citizens and British protected persons working in the Union, the High Commissioner is in constant touch with the South African authorities.
    Mr. Foot: Will the hon. Member say whether citizens of the United Kingdom or British protected persons who happen to be working or are resident in the Union of South Africa are entitled to expect from the High Commissioner and his staff the same degree of assistance and protection that British subjects living in foreign countries would receive from Her Majesty's diplomatic and consular representative?
    Mr. Alport: It is normally true that in Commonwealth countries the services required from the High Commissioner and his staff are not the same as those of consular authorities in foreign
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    countries, but where these services are required they are provided by the High Commissioner's office and officials concerned.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Will the Minister answer the second part of Question No. 9 and say what steps he is taking to ensure the safety of British subjects within the Union? Will he, in particular, cease immediately the export of Saracen tanks and other armaments which are being used to shoot down defenceless persons?
    Mr. Alport: I replied to a similar Question on Tuesday to the effect that it is the policy, and has been the policy of successive Governments in this country, to meet the defence requirements of all Commonwealth countries. In answer to the hon. Member's other point, the High Commissioner, Sir John Maud, in the Union of South Africa has my noble Friend's full confidence that he will carry out his duties effectively and energetically in the protection of any interests that we have in that part of the world.
    Mr. Donnelly: First, is the hon. Member aware that, when he refers to defence, one of the operative considerations is, defence against whom? Will he address himself to the implications of that aspect of the matter? Secondly, will he address himself to the point in Question No. 10? Is he aware that if Her Majesty's Government were prepared to make a token grant of, say, £25,000 to any distress fund set up it would be widely welcomed in this country as a gesture of our feelings?
    Mr. Alport: I have noted the point which the hon. Member has made. As I said in my Answer today, I answered the point that he raised about alleviating distress of families in the High Commission Territories when I replied to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition on Tuesday.
    Mr. Ginsburg: As a British protected subject was involved in this incident, may I ask the Minister of State whether he will follow the precedent of his own reply on 8th February and press for Her Majesty's Government to be represented at the judicial inquiry which the South African Government are to hold? Further, will the hon. Member bear in mind Lord Palmerston's famous dictum

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    "Civis Britannicus sum", and that even the humblest of Her Majesty's citizens is entitled to the protection of the Crown at moments like this?
    Mr. Alport: As the hon. Member is aware from Press reports and as I understand it, there are to be two judicial inquiries into these circumstances. I am sure that we can leave it to the High Commissioner, whose duty it is, to ensure that the interests of United Kingdom subjects are looked after at the inquiries.
    Mr. Wade: Is the Minister aware that not only is there widespread concern in this country about the events in South Africa, but also a genuine desire to do something more practical than pass resolutions of protest? Would it not go some way to meet this desire if it were made known that Her Majesty's Government, on humanitarian grounds, were prepared to grant financial and other aid to the victims of the bloody tragedy that is taking place in South Africa?
    Mr. Alport: I think that it would be wise for the hon. Member and the House generally to await the arrival of further information, which we hope to get, and to await the outcome of the judicial inquiries which are being made under the auspices of another Commonwealth Government.
    Sir T. Moore: We are all very unhappy about this wretched business, but we should like to await the High Commissioner's report, which we hope my hon. Friend will make available to us on its receipt.
    Mr. Alport: I shall make available any further information about the position of United Kingdom citizens or British protected persons in connection with these disturbances. As I said last Tuesday, events which result in a heavy loss of life are of great concern to everyone in this country and elsewhere.
    Mr. Callaghan: We are grateful for that advance, but now that he has had 48 hours to think about it, could not the Minister of State get his heart so high as to say that he deplores these shootings and to express his sympathy with the families of those who have lost their lives and with the injured?
    Mr. Alport: The hon. Member is perhaps not clear that I have already done that—on Tuesday—and I do it again. The hon. Member would be greatly in error if he assumed that concern and feeling in this matter were exclusive to any particular section of the community.
    Mr. Callaghan: Is not the Minister aware that we believe this feeling of concern to be shared by the whole population, and that is why we want the Government to give the lead in expressing it?
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We must get on with Questions.
    Mr. Marquand: On a point of order. In view of the fact that it is six or seven weeks since Questions addressed to the Commonwealth Relations Office were answered, may we ask for your leniency in a few more supplementary questions?
    Mr. Speaker: There has been very little lack of leniency. It is 3 o'clock and we have dealt with about a dozen Questions. I have to consider the interests of other Members who are concerned with other topics.
    Mr. Marquand: May I be permitted to ask one more supplementary question?
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: We must deal with one hon. Member at a time.
    Sir G. Nicholson: Is it not a fact, Mr. Speaker, that there has been only one supplementary question from this side of the House?
    Sir H. Oakshott: Is it not permissible for another supplementary question to be asked from this side of the House?
    Mr. Speaker: We must bring this Question to an end at some time. I will allow one supplementary question from the right-hand side of the House and one from the left-hand side, and then we must get on.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: On a point of order. There are many more questions which hon. Members on this side of the House would like to ask about this terrible tragedy. [HON. MEMBERS: "Put down a Question."] May I ask for your guidance? To what extent are we inhibited by the fact that two judges of the Supreme Court of South Africa are to hold an inquiry?
    Mr. Speaker: Not at all. If the hon. Member tries to put Questions on the Order Paper he will be able to ascertain whether they are in order, because if they are. not in order they will not be allowed.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: It is certainly not only in order but it is a duty of hon. Members to ask Questions about British people and British protected persons, wherever they may be.
    Mr. Speaker: I do not wish to make wide Rulings about this. I was only indicating that it is easy to find out whether a Question is in order if an hon. Member tries to put it down.
    Sir H. Oakshott: While I would deplore most sincerely this loss of life— as my hon. Friend has deplored it and as I think the whole House deplores it— in South Africa or anywhere else, is it not a fact that the Union Government have set up two Commissions of Inquiry, each under a Supreme Court judge, in order to find out the facts of what happened? In that case, should we not be wiser to refrain from passing judgment until we know what those facts are?
    Mr. Marquand: Has the United Kingdom High Commissioner been instructed to draw the attention of the Union Government to the undeniable fact that British arms were used in these circumstances? Has he been instructed to indicate to the Union Government that these arms were supplied for defence purposes and to ask for an undertaking that they will never again be used to shoot down the civilian population?
    Mr. Alport: Throughout the period when the Socialist Government made available arms to other Commonwealth countries, conditions of that sort were never attached to them. It would not be in accordance with practice.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We must get on with Questions.

  EDUCATION

    Redditch
    Mr. Danceasked the Minister of Education whether in view of the large annual increase in the number of school-
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    children in the Redditch district and the fact that little building work was carried out in the inter-war years, he will reconsider his decision not to allow the replacement of sub-standard primary school premises in the district in the county education authority's building programme.
    The Minister of Education (Sir David Eccles): The authority put forward one project for this purpose for 1960–62, but it had to give place to more urgent proposals. I am prepared to consider proposals for future years.
    Mr. Dance: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that from 1954 to the present day the population of Redditch has increased by 3,000 and that, as a result, the number of children at school has increased at the rate of 200 a year? As this is causing such disturbance in the minds of educationists in the district, will he please give sympathetic consideration to the problem in the near future?
    Sir D. Eccles: I will, because the information which my hon. Friend has just given me is not quite the same as mine, which is that the number of primary school pupils in Redditch has remained comparatively stable. I will look into the question again.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Does not the Minister realise that his refusal to allow local education authorities to proceed with schemes which they themselves believe to be within their competence during a given period makes it much more difficult to achieve his declared intention of recruiting teachers and getting rid of over-sized classes?
    Sir D. Eccles: Questions such as that which I have just answered arise because we are now planning much further ahead, and it is therefore quite reasonable for local authorities to present to me several years' programmes in one. That is why I have to tell them that they cannot do it all in the initial period.

    Independent Girls' Schools
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Education if, in view of the heavy demands which girls' independent schools are making on the short supply of teachers, and the unsatisfactory

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    arrangements for sixth form courses in many of these schools, he will take some immediate action to remedy this situation.
    Sir D. Eccles: The best way to help these schools is to increase the supply of teachers, and that I am doing.
    Mr. Boyden: Would it not be helpful to parents who might be sending their children to these schools for the Minister to publish a list of them so that they know where the sixth forms are deficient?
    Sir D. Eccles: A list of independent schools can be obtained if the hon. Member wishes.
    Mr. Boyden: I asked that a list should be published where sixth forms are deficient, in accordance with the terms of the Crowther Report.

    Leeds Day Training College
    Mr. Montgomeryasked the Minister of Education whether he is aware that students who will be admitted to Leeds Day Training College next September for a two-year course will be eligible to receive dependants' grants, whereas students admitted last September for a course of similar duration are not eligible to receive grants for their dependants; and what steps he proposes to take to remove this anomaly.
    Sir D. Eccles: Students admitted to this college last September are following the normal two-year course and receive the usual personal grants. The dependants' grants to be paid next September are a special provision for mature students capable of taking shortened courses of two years when the normal course will have been extended to three years.
    Mr. Montgomery: Is the Minister aware that some people who were admitted last September have dependants and that if they had deferred their entry to this college for twelve months they would have been much better off financially? Does he realise that this state of affairs will cause a great deal of resentment among students who will be working together, side by side, in the college? Will he look at the matter again in order to rectify these anomalies?
    Sir D. Eccles: I think that my hon. Friend has made a point. I will look at it in the light of the Anderson Committee's Report, which I expect very soon.
    Mrs. White: Why does the right hon. Gentleman have to await the Anderson Committee's Report on this matter? This is not a question of university grants in general, on which that Committee will report. It is an urgent matter concerning his own short-term campaign for more teachers. Can he not settle this restrictive matter on his own authority without having to await the Anderson Committee's Report?
    Sir D. Eccles: It will not make any difference to the supply of teachers if I do what my hon. Friend wants, because he is referring to students who are already at college.
    Mrs. White: It applies equally, does it not, to students in similar circumstances to those mentioned by the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Montgomery), and who wish to take a regular course, not the shortened, mature student course?
    Sir D. Eccles: I think not. If they enter next September they will get a grant.

    Library Service (Report)
    Mr. Fitchasked the Minister of Education if his attention has been drawn to paragraph 96 of the Roberts Report; and what proposals he has to make.
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir, but, as the Roberts Committee recognised, negotiating machinery exists for determining the salaries of qualified librarians, and I have no doubt that paragraph 96 has been noted by those concerned.
    Mr. Fitch: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 51 per cent. of all qualified librarians working in public libraries are on a salary scale the maximum of which is £765 a year? Does he not feel that for the qualifications required for this job the salary is too low? Did not the Roberts Report recommend that he should draw the attention of the appropriate joint negotiating committee to that fact? Has he done so?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, I think that local authorities are well aware of this.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Is it not a fact that the local authorities are losing to private industry librarians who may have trained at public expense? Could he not lend his own authority to the recommendations of the Roberts Report in this respect?
    Sir D. Eccles: I have not exact information about the wastage of librarians. I will look into that.

    Building Costs
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenportasked the Minister of Education whether he will set up an advisory panel of experts to compare the costs of building various forms of educational establishments, including instructional colleges, with a view to placing such information at the disposal of local authorities, nationalised undertakings and other bodies engaged in educational activities.
    Sir D. Eccles: I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend that information of this kind is very useful. It is already available through my Department's Building Bulletins and through cost analyses of educational buildings published from time to time in the architectural journals.
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport: Would it not be a good thing if my right hon. Friend would get this advisory panel to take a look at these so-called staff colleges run by the nationalised industries, like the one at Mere College in my constituency, to make quite certain that the money is being well spent and not being wasted? Otherwise, how can the unfortunate taxpayers who provide the money ever find out whether it has been well spent and what is going on at these places?
    Sir D. Eccles: The matter raised by my hon. and gallant Friend is undoubtedly of interest, but it does not concern my Department.

    Secondary Education
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Minister of Education how many schools wishing to retain pupils for a fifth year of secondary education are unable to do so owing to shortage of staff.
    Sir D. Eccles: Until we get more teachers there are bound to be a number of these schools, but I cannot say how many.
    Mrs. White: But if the right hon. Gentleman is dependent upon the voluntary choice of pupils gathering momentum, as he said in the debate the other day, is it not his business to know how many schools are meeting the requirements and how many are not? Otherwise, will he not agree that we shall have many more incidents such as that in Kidlington recently where the pupils themselves will make their own protests?
    Sir D. Eccles: This is a matter for research and one which I intend to have examined by my Department.

    Teachers' Notes (Stock Exchange)
    Mr. R. Edwardsasked the Minister of Education whether he is aware that 8,000 State schools are to receive supplies of Teachers' Notes and literature called, "The Stock Exchange: How it Works"; why, in view of the fact that these documents will have the effect of encouraging gambling among schoolchildren, he has permitted their distribution; and whether he will make a statement.
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir: the Stock Exchange is an important institution which is essential to the efficient investment of capital in a mixed economy. I see advantages in learning the facts about the way it works.
    Mr. Edwards: Would the Minister not agree that the heavy curricula of our schools ought not to be cluttered up with this cheap, free enterprise propaganda? Is the Minister not aware that thousands of hard-working parents who produce the real wealth of the country take a very poor view of the suggestion that one can get rich without working? Will the Minister give similar facilities to worthier institutions, like building societies, trustee savings banks and the Co-operative Movement if he is interested in savings?
    Sir D. Eccles: Since the hon. Member and I were at school there have been changes in the curriculum. He may perhaps not know that stocks and shares are a normal part of a mathematics course. He may also not know that quite a number of parents are interested in pools, which are, after all, another form.

    Grammar School Education, West Riding
    Mr. Draysonasked the Minister of Education why he has not pressed the West Riding Local Education Authority to arrange that where two brothers are eligible for a grammar school education they can both be admitted to the same school when places are available for them, and the headmaster in question has signified his willingness to accept both pupils and, particularly, in the case where one brother is already attending the school to which the younger brother wishes to be admitted.
    Sir D. Eccles: Where local education authorities have vacancies in a suitable and accessible school of their own, I cannot, consistently with the terms of the Education Act, 1944, require them to take up plaices in a school not maintained by them.
    Mr. Drayson: As regards the latter part of the Question, does not my right hon. Friend think that it is both unreasonable and inhuman to separate brothers in this way?
    Sir D. Eccles: Local authorities normally take into consideration the obvious desirability of keeping members of a family together, but in this particular case I really have no power to ask the authority to take a place in Westmorland when it has one in its own school.

    U.N.E.S.C.O. Appeal (Nubian Archaeological Treasures)
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Minister of Education what response has been made to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation's appeal for assistance in the preservation of Nubian archaeological treasures endangered by the Aswan Dam project.
    Sir D. Eccles: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Poole (Captain Pilkington) on 4th February. I was glad to learn that the Duke of Devonshire had agreed to serve as the United Kingdom Member of the Committee of Patrons for the appeal and I hope that there will be a British member on the International Action Committee
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    which will be advising the Director-General on the organisation of his campaign.
    Mr. Warbey: The right hon. Gentleman knows that that reply was a negative one. Is he not aware that an unparalleled combined effort is required in a short space of three or four years' time if the unique archaeological and architectural treasures of Philae, Abu Simbel, and other sites in this area are to be preserved against inundation and destruction? Surely the Government ought to make a contribution themselves towards this combined effort by U.N.E.S.C.O.
    Sir D. Eccles: We take the view that this is not a case for Government contribution, but we should be glad to see any persons who are interested in these very remarkable monuments making private subscriptions.

    History
    Mr. Tilneyasked the Minister of Education whether, in view of the ignorance shown by many grammar school boys and girls about Hitler and the Spanish War, he will urge local education authorities to include recent history in the curriculum for schools.
    Sir D. Eccles: The importance of keeping history courses up to date and linking them with contemporary affairs was emphasised in my Department's pamphlet on Teaching History. I am sending a copy of this pamphlet to my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Tilney: Has my right hon. Friend seen the transcript of "Panorama" of 29th February? Is he aware that the Austrian Parliamentary delegation visited the B.BC.'s studios on that day and, while admitting that there might be children in Austria who were equally ignorant, they were so horrified by the lack of knowledge shown that they never stopped talking about it all the way back to their hotel?
    Sir D. Eccles: I heard about that and I am sorry, but of course one small group of children cannot be taken as typical. In any event, modern history is a very large subject. But I would agree with my hon. Friend that it is probably not receiving as much attention as it should.

    Loan Charges
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Education what was the amount expended by local education authorities on loan charges in the year ended 31st March, 1959; what percentage this was of the total amount raised from rates for education purposes; and how these figures compare with those for the year ended 31st March, 1951.
    Sir D. Eccles: Loan charges were taken into account in calculating the education grant and in assessing the general grant. Therefore they do not all fall on the rates. In 1950–51 the expenditure of local education authorities (other than on school meals and milk) was £220 million, of which £96 million was on loan charges; 37·3 per cent. of all this expenditure fell on the rates. In 1958–59 the corresponding figures were £5212 million and £45·8 million; the proportion falling on the rates was 35·5 per cent.
    Mr. Boyden: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this amount falling on the rates was equivalent to the total aid to pupils and students, the cost of training teachers and of the school medical service? Does he not think it is time to use his influence to get the loan charges to local authorities reduced?
    Sir D. Eccles: All these things are taken into consideration when the general rate is assessed.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Are we to take it from what the right hon. Gentleman has said that he accepts the contention that a large number of increases in the rates, which may be necessary in the near future, will be due to high interest charges following upon the Government's financial policy?
    Sir D. Eccles: The difference in the two figures I gave is due not so much to high interest charges as to the fact that very little school building was done in the years immediately following the war.

    School Uniform
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Education whether, in view of the distress caused to some parents when they are asked to spend money on a school uniform, following the gaining of a scholar-
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    ship by their child, he will arrange for parents to be informed that a grant may be given them in respect of such uniform.
    Sir D. Eccles: Local education authorities are prepared to make grants towards the cost of school uniform where parents show that they cannot meet it without hardship. Since authorities' arrangements differ from one area to another, they can best be publicised locally.
    Mr. Janner: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the recent case of a widow with three children who was driven to crime in order to find the money to provide a school uniform, and the remarks of the learned judge who indicated that he had heard similar cases before and thought that the education authority should do something about it? Will the Minister see to it that some indication is given to the local education authorities so that people will not be placed in that position?
    Sir D. Eccles: I am not aware whether the parent in that case was eligible for grant or not.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the case of some schools the uniform may entail an expenditure of up to £35? Will he allow it to be known that he deprecates a uniform being prescribed at such a level?
    Sir D. Eccles: I was not aware that a uniform costs £35. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will send me particulars.

    Canton High School, Cardiff
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Minister of Education (1) whether he is aware of the difficulties caused in the Canton High School for Girls, Cardiff, by the inadequate school premises; and whether he will state the reason for his continued delay in sanctioning the building of a new school; and
    (2) whether estimates for a new building for the Canton High School for Girls, Cardiff, will be included in the 1961-62 building programme; and whether he will make a statement.
    Sir D. Eccles: I am aware of the unsatisfactory conditions at the Canton High School for Girls and I have advised the

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    authority to proceed with the preparation of plans for new premises. When the proposal is ready to go to tender, I will consider its inclusion in a major school building programme.
    Mr. Thomas: Is the Minister aware that the teachers and pupils of this school have been kept waiting for years, that they have to walk nearly a quarter of a mile to another part of the ward to continue certain lessons, which means delay and waste of time and also has a bad effect on youngsters in bad weather, and that if he can hurry up the matter now and guarantee that this project will be in the 1961–62 building programme he will earn the thanks of the people of Cardiff?
    Sir D. Eccles: Yes, Sir, the sooner the plans come forward the better, and I should say that there is a very good chance of getting this project into the 1961–62 programme.

    Redundant Text-books
    Mr. Pavittasked the Minister of Education how many local authorities are following the example set by the Willesden Education Committee, which is sending 6,000 redundant school textbooks to Sierra Leone; and what action he is taking to encourage this practical assistance to education in underdeveloped countries.
    Sir D. Eccles: I understand that the Wood Green Divisional Executive has also sent some redundant school books overseas. It is for local education authorities to consider how far they can help in this way. It is important that the particular needs of under-developed countries should be ascertained before books are sent out. This is a matter on which I am sure my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies would be glad to give advice.
    Mr. Pavitt: Can the Minister say how many of those local authorities are Labour-controlled, and is he aware that these actions make a substantial and constructive contribution to breaking down the barriers between coloured and white people, not only in this country but also in the countries for which the books are destined?
    Sir D. Eccles: I cannot answer the first part of the supplementary question, but
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    I imagine that authorities of all political complexions would like to do this. I should like to stress, however, that it is no use sending Victorian text-books out to Africa, as happened in one case.

    U.N.E.S.C.O. (Information)
    Mr. Pavittasked the Minister of Education, in view of the United Kingdom subscription of £340,000 last year to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation, if he will make available more frequent and extensive information regarding the work of that organisation than three pages in his Department's annual report, appearing six months after the activities have taken place.
    Sir D. Eccles: The Director-General's extensive annual reports on the work of U.N.E.S.C.O. are obtainable from Her Majesty's Stationery Office. So is the U.N.E.S.C.O. Chronicle, a monthly magazine. Copies of both publications are in the library.

    Training Colleges (Staff Accommodation)
    Mrs. Whiteasked the Minister of Education what is the standard of accommodation provided for resident married staff at the proposed new training colleges.
    Sir D. Eccles: Principals are normally provided with a house costing £4,500. excluding the value of the site. Married lecturers are allowed 1,200 square feet of personal living accommodation, normally in the form of a flat, and in addition a study of 100 square feet.
    Mrs. White: Will the right hon. Gentleman acquaint himself with his Ministry's attitude towards the Church of England College at Canterbury, where I am informed that the standard of accommodation is far from satisfactory for married staff and where it would be impossible for them to entertain students, for example, in their own homes, and to which it will be impossible to attract staff of good quality unless the standard is improved?
    Sir D. Eccles: I will look into that because I particularly welcome the project at Canterbury.

  SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH

    Jodrell Bank Radio-Telescope
    Mr. Masonasked the Minister of Education, as representing the Minister for Science, if, in view of the recent work undertaken by the Jodrell Bank radio-telescope on behalf of the United States Government, he will consider increasing the amount of financial aid given by Her Majesty's Government to this project.
    Sir D. Eccles: The United States Government already pay in full for the work undertaken on their behalf by the radio-telescope and there is, therefore, no ground for any contribution from United Kingdom public funds on this score.
    Mr. Mason: Does it not oppear that the Jodrell Bank radio-telescope has been starved of finance? Is it not rather humiliating, particularly to Her Majesty's Government, that we should have to rely on American charities to maintain the telescope in existence?
    Sir D. Eccles: There is no question of American charity. The Jodrell Bank radio-telescope will do valuable work for Americans who are paying for both the capital cost and the running.
    Mr. Mason: Is it not a fact that if the Americans had not been using the telescope at Jodrell Bank it would have been starved of money for running costs?
    Sir D. Eccles: I cannot accept that argument.
    Mr. Masonasked the Minister of Education, as representing the Minister for Science, when Treasury approval was given to the allocation by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research of all the moneys for the Jodrell Bank radio-telescope; and if he will make a statement.
    Chetwyndasked the Minister of Education, as representing the Minister for Science (1) what research grant has been authorised for the Jodrell Bank Research Station; and why there is delay in making the payment;
    (2) what grants have been made by the Department of Scientific and Industrial
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    Research to the Jodrell Bank Research Station; for what specific purposes; and for what periods of duration.
    Sir D. Eccles: Treasury approval for the last instalment of £130,000 of the total grant of £360,000 towards the capital cost of construction of the radio-telescope was given on 8th August, 1956, and payment to the University was completed on 17th March, 1958. Three further grants totalling £127,820 for running costs, development of new apparatus and techniques and research involving the use of the radio-telescope have been authorised, and I am circulating details of them in the OFFICIAL REPORT. I am not aware of any delay on the part of the Treasury in giving approval or by D.S.I.R. in making the payments to the University.
    Mr. Mason: Could the Minister say when these recent allowances were authorised? Is it not a fact that Parliament approved moneys for research projects many months ago and that other research projects have got their money but it is being withheld in respect of Jodrell Bank? Does not the Treasury seem to have some bias against the Jodrell Bank radio-telescope? Why?
    Sir D. Eccles: I have no information that these grants, which were towards the running costs, were delayed.
    Mr. Ede
    Mr. Speaker: Dr. King.
    Mr. Mason: When was this money authorised?
    Mr. Speaker: I have called Dr. King.
    Mr. Ede
    Mr. Speaker: I did not see the right hon. Gentleman and I called Dr. King.
    Dr. King: As the Jodrell Bank Station has now clearly established itself internationally as one of the glories of British post-war science and engineering, ought not the Government to accept full financial responsibility for it?
    Sir D. Eccles: As for running costs, we are prepared to examine any grants asked for on their merits in the usual way. There is a sum of only £60,000 left to be collected by the University towards the capital cost.
    Mr. Ede: May I allude to the last point made by the Minister? In view of the tremendous position in the scientific world that the enterprise of Manchester University in this matter has given this country, ought not the Government to feel that they could subscribe this last sum of £60,000 and bring to an end the continual references which are made in the Press to the fact that this University is still in debt to that amount on this project?
    Sir D. Eccles: My noble Friend feels that the contribution that has been made —on terms which were well understood —is sufficient. The rest of the money, it was understood, would be raised by the University.
    Following are the details:

    GOVERNMENT GRANTS THROUGH THE DEPARTMENT OF SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH TO THE JODRELL BANK RADIO TELESCOPE

    Purpose of Grant

    Amount

    Date of Treasury Approval

    Galactic and extra-galactic neutral hydrogen emis-sion studies and development of data handling processes.

    £15,200

    22nd October, 1958

    Running costs

    £13,000 annually for 4 years

    4th June, 1959

    Development of new apparatus and techniques.

    £60,820

    30th December, 1959

    MEMBERS (CAR TRAVEL)
    Mr. Croninasked the Prime Minister if he will make arrangements for Members of Parliament, who use their own vehicles for purposes for which they are at present entitled to use travel vouchers, to be reimbursed the cost incurred to an extent not exceeding the public transport bulk travel cost.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): This proposal is now being considered.
    Mr. Cronin: In view of the obvious equity and common-sense nature of this proposal and the fact that Government Departments have been operating car allowance schemes for a long time, can
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    we take it that these deliberations will not be prolonged? Will the Prime Minister tell us when we shall have a definite decision?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir, I am afraid I could not give an undertaking as to a definite date. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are considering this in the hope of finding a workable scheme.
    Mr. Gaitskell: In view of the fact that this is a very reasonable and logical proposal, and one that does not involve an increase in public expenditure, will the Prime Minister consider it urgently and favourably?
    The Prime Minister: I will do my best.

    EUROPEAN FREE TRADE ASSOCIATION AND COMMON MARKET
    Mr. Croninasked the Prime Minister what representations he has made to General de Gaulle as to the desirability of achieving more satisfac-tary arrangements between the Common Market and the European Free Trade Association.
    The Prime Minister: As the hon. Member knows, my correspondence and conversations with President de Gaulle are confidential.
    Mr. Cronin: Whilst fully understanding the necessity for these conversations being confidential, will the Prime Minister bear in mind that the imminent implementation of the Hallstein Plan is a severe threat to British trade? Will he, therefore, give this matter his careful personal attention?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that this problem, and its implications, are very much in our minds.

    MINISTER OF HEALTH
    Dr. Strossasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the importance of the National Health Service to the nation and the admiration and interest shown in it by many other countries, he will add the Minister of Health to those who serve in the Cabinet.
    The Prime Minister: It is not possible to include in the Cabinet all Ministers in charge of Departments. But it should not be inferred from this that the Government underrate the importance of the matters for which Ministers outside the Cabinet are responsible.
    Dr. Stross: Would not the Prime Minister agree that it is difficult for observers abroad to appreciate the attitude and the answer he has just given? Would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind, too, that the medical profession itself feels somewhat aggrieved on this matter, and could he give it some further attention?
    The Prime Minister: Well, Sir, I agree, but, of course, the composition of a Cabinet has always rested within the discretion of the Prime Minister of the day. Adjustments are made from time to time, but there is the fact that to some extent it is not desirable that the Cabinet should be too big, partly from the point of view of discussion, and partly because of the character of the room in which we meet.

    RHODESIA AND NYASALAND
    Mr. Wyattasked the Prime Minister, in view of the policy of political advancement for Africans now being applied in Kenya and Tanganyika, what modifications of such policy are now proposed in respect of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland.
    The Prime Minister: Her Majesty's Government's policy is not directed solely to the political advance of Africans but to the advance of all whose rightful homes are in the territories in which we have responsibility.
    This policy finds expression in the principle of partnership on which the Constitution of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland is founded. As the House knows, that Constitution is to be reviewed in the course of the next twelve months by delegations chosen by the five Governments concerned.
    Mr. Wyatt: Is the Prime Minister aware that in his party political broadcast last week he definitely implied that the rights of the European settlers in the Federation would be such as to hold up the advance of the Africans towards their
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    own political rights in a way that is not holding them up in Kenya and Tanganyika? Does not this suggest to the Africans that where one in twenty-five of the population is European they will get few political rights?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Member has over-simplified what we know to be an extremely complex problem of Africans, Asians—in large numbers—and Europeans living in a State which we hope to make a partnership State on a sound and equitable basis.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Does the Prime Minister's reply suggest that there is to be no political advancement in Nyasaland pending the Report of the Monckton Commission?
    The Prime Minister: No, not necessarily, but I would prefer to leave this matter for the moment and see how we get on. The Secretary of State for the Colonies has just left for the Colonies, and as the Leader of the Opposition knows, my noble Friend, Lord Perth, was about to undertake some discussion when the unfortunate trouble broke out last year. I do not rule out any particular method, but I do say that this is a year in which we all hope that real progress can be made and we all have high responsibilities for creating the conditions in which it can best be achieved.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Does the Prime Minister agree that constitutional advance is as important in Northern Rhodesia as it is in Nyasaland, particularly in view of the development in the Belgium Congo, which will obtain independence on the 1st July?
    The Prime Minister: One must not pull up everything by the roots to see how it is growing. The Constitution in Northern Rhodesia started the last forward movement about a year ago.
    Mr. P. Williams: The original Question to my right hon. Friend referred also to Kenya. Is he aware that when we talk of partnership today it appears to be a fact that those who are holding up partnership, certainly in Kenya, are the Africans who are at present refusing to take part in the Government? This is regrettable, and if anything can be done by my right hon. Friend or by the Secretary of State for the Colonies to make

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    African participation in the Government possible, it will be welcomed on this side of the House.
    The Prime Minister: It is as I said. If this experiment—which as far as I know has never been tried before in the history of mankind—is to have any chance of success, it throws a great responsibility both on all the races concerned and on all those who advise them.
    Mr. Wyatt: Is the Prime Minister aware that by emphasising the rights of the European settlers in the way that he has done he is in danger of elevating those rights into privileges which may prevent the Africans from having their rights?
    The Prime Minister: No. I think the hon. Member has misconstrued what I have said.

COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS' MEETING
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. ORAM: To ask the Prime Minister which Commonwealth Prime Ministers have now accepted invitations to attend the conference in London during May.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will answer Question No. 46.
I am pleased to say that I can now tell the House that the Prime Ministers of all the other ten Commonwealth countries have accepted the invitations to the conference starting on 3rd May.
I might add that it will be a happy addition to the normal routine of this conference that the wedding of Her Royal Highness Princess Margaret will take place during its course.
Mr. Oram: If, after the recent massacre in South Africa, the Prime Minister of that country is still shameless enough to come to London in May, will the Prime Minister consult with the other Prime Ministers about ways of demonstrating collectively their utter condemnation of the recent shootings?
The Prime Minister: I hope very much that the Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa will come, as he has said it is his intention to do. If I may say so
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—I hope I am not being either patronising or offensive—that question shows how little the hon. Member understands the character of the Commonwealth, the strains that are necessarily put upon it from time to time, and the importance of preserving it as an instrument in the world.
Mr. Gaitskell: Is it not one of the most outstanding characteristics of the Commonwealth that it is a multi-racial association, and that its whole future depends on an absence of racial discrimination? Is it not important that this should be laid down quite plainly by the British Government? Did any of the replies from any of the Prime Ministers lay down any conditions before they accepted?
The Prime Minister: By far the most impressive demonstration of the character of the conference is its meeting in London. The fact that there are now eleven Prime Ministers, from different countries, races and traditions, is in itself a demonstration which serves exactly the purpose which both the right hon. Gentleman and I wish to support.
No conditions are made. As the right hon. Gentleman perhaps knows, there is no formal agenda. Although the United Kingdom Prime Minister acts as chairman, out of courtesy, the conference makes its own agenda and discusses what it likes. As is customary, there has been a series of exchanges between the Commonwealth Prime Ministers as to the questions that they would like to raise when they meet. Many suggestions are made so as to get some order into the discussions.
The Prime Minister of South Africa asked whether there would be an opportunity, while he was in London, to discuss certain subjects which are of concern to both Governments. I assured him that arrangements could be made for discussions to be held on those subjects, either at full meetings or at smaller meetings.
Mr. Gower: Is not the unusual nature of the Commonwealth also underlined by the fact that, although the Commonwealth concept is a democratic one, this unusual association includes countries which at present go away from being democratic?
The Prime Minister: Yes, that is perfectly true, but I do not think that I would like to enter into a debate, on an Answer to a Question, as to the character of the Commonwealth. If we really face it, it can do two things. It can disintegrate—and what has the world to gain by that?—or, by forbearance and understanding of the mutual influence one can bring upon another, it can move forward into perhaps a greater benefit to the world than ever before. We shall have a very great part to play in that.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business for next week?
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. R. A. Butler): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 28TH MARCH—Third Reading of the Iron and Steel (Financial Provisions) Bill.
Committee and remaining stages of the Gas Bill.
Report and Third Reading of the Legal Aid Bill.
TUESDAY, 29TH MARCH—Second Reading of the International Development Association Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
Consideration of Motions to approve the Fatstock (Protection of Guarantees) (Amendment) Order, the Fatstock (Guarantee Payments) Order, and the Eggs (Guaranteed Prices) (Amendment) Order.
WEDNESDAY, 30TH MARCH—Report and Third Reading of the Payment of Wages Bill.
Second Reading of the Public Health Laboratory Service Bill [Lords], and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
At seven o'clock private Members' Motions will be considered.
THURSDAY, 31ST MARCH—Debate on House of Commons Accommodation, which will arise on a Government Motion.
FRIDAY, 1ST APRIL—Consideration of Private Members' Bills.
MONDAY, 4TH APRIL—As already announced, my right hon. Friend the
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Chancellor of the Exchequer will open his Budget.
The general Debate on the Budget Resolutions and the Economic Situation will be continued on Tuesday and Wednesday and brought to a conclusion on Thursday of that week.
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask, on Thursday's business, what kind of Government Motion is implied? Will it indicate the kind of steps the Government intend to take? Could the right hon. Gentleman give us a little more guidance on this subject, or, at any rate, tell us when the Motion is likely to be put down?
May I also ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Government intend to make a statement about the deplorable events in South Africa, which resulted in the death and injury of so many people, and whether, in view of the fact that the United States Government and the Prime Minister of India have both expressed their profound regret at what has happened, he will give the House some idea whether the Government intend to do the same?
Mr. Butler: Taking the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's question, we shall be putting the Motion on the Order Paper tonight, so that hon. Members may see it. It will simply take note of the measures which we have under consideration for improving accommodation and facilities and will be of a general and straightforward character. [HON. MEMBERS: "What are they?"] They will be announced by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Works and, I hope, supplemented by myself. At any rate, the object of the debate will be to give a general chance to hon. Members to put their views about accommodation.
Turning to the second part of the right hon. Gentleman's question, I do not think that I can, in answer to business questions, make any further statements on policy, some of which have already been announced by my hon. Friend the Minister of State at Question Time this afternoon. But that does not mean— you have yourself used the expression, Mr. Speaker—that we, as well as hon. Members opposite, have not our own profound feelings. As to the best way of handling this matter in the House, I suggest that conversations should take place between us in the normal manner.
Mr. Gaitskell: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I ask that question because there are several Motions already on the Order Paper expressing the regret of the House and, while we certainly would wish the Government to give expression to these views, in the absence of a Government statement we would wish the House of Commons to do so.
Mr. Butler: That is why I phrased my answer to the right hon. Gentleman as I did. I and my colleagues have read the Motions on the Order Paper, and I think that this matter had better be handled in the way I have described.
Mr. G. Thomas: Has the Leader of the House seen the Motion on the Order Paper in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) and myself, concerning Government statements of policy in Wales? Can he say when we shall have an opportunity to discuss it?
[That this House, believing it to be the responsibility of Ministers of the Crown and not that of civil servants to declare and to defend the policies of Her Majesty's Government, deplores the Press conference held in Cardiff on 22nd March, 1960, when the Welsh Secretary of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government explained and defended Her Majesty's Government's policy with regard to Welsh water resources and the demand for further public supplies; and that this House calls upon Her Majesty's Government to ensure that in future such policy statements are made in Wales by a responsible Minister.]
Mr. Butler: I have read the Motion and I must say that I was surprised at it, because the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend evidently take exception to a statement made by a civil servant on policy. Occasionally, this has to be done, but it was not intended to convey any slight upon the great country, part of which is represented by the hon. Member, or to diminish in any way the work done by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Welsh Affairs. I am in process of discussing this question with my right hon. Friend, and perhaps we can find some way of soothing the hon. Gentleman's feelings.
Mr. John MacLeod: Has my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to
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the Motion on the Order Paper in the names of several hon. Members and myself on the subject of State management districts? Will he allow time for this matter to be discussed in the House, since there are certain districts treated quite differently from other districts although the reasons for any such difference have changed long since?
[That this House resents the continuance of the State drink monopoly in Annan, Dingwall and Invergordon, which was created under Defence of the Realm Act in 1916 to deal with a state of affairs which came to an end many years ago; and reauests the Secretary of State for Scotland to amend the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1959, so that those burghs will be governed by the same licensing laws which prevail in the other 195 burghs in Scotland.]
Mr. Butler: Various aspects of the State management district problem both in Scotland and in England have been raised by hon. Members. The difficulty is to find complete unanimity of view about what is best to be done. I do not see any immediate chance of time, owing to the business I have announced, but my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I will be available to hon. Members who wish to put their points of view to us.
Mr. Short: Is the right hon. Gentle-man aware that, once again, last Friday, two of his hon. Friends blocked the Public Service Vehicles (Travel Concessions) Act, 1955 (Amendment) Bill? Does he realise that about 80 or 90 local authorities urgently need the powers which the Bill would give, and that, until these powers are given, hundreds of thousands of old-age pensioners, and blind and disabled people, are deprived of rights which are available to others? How much longer is the rigmarole of the Government Whips instigating this blocking of the Bill to go on?
Mr. Butler: Hon. Members sometimes attribute too much magic and power to my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary and his Whips. I do not understand the language used by the hon. Gentleman. I am sorry that this Bill was a temporary casualty. That is all part of our life in this House in relation to private Members' business.
Mrs. Castle: I thank the Leader of the House for having kept his promise about an accommodation debate. Does he agree that this is a House of Commons matter rather than a party matter and, if so, will he be willing to allow a free vote on any Motion or Amendments which may be tabled?
Mr. Butler: The Government, as I said, are putting down a Motion which, albeit of a general character, is one which we would wish in general to support. In the circumstances, I should not like to remove the comfort of the support of the Government Whips from us on this occasion. But that does not mean that we would wish to inhibit or stop in any way any right hon. or hon. Member from making his contribution.
Mr. Donnelly: Can the Leader of the House say how far he has gone in obtaining general support for a general debate on the railways?
Mr. Butler: We have a good deal on our plate at the moment, but I am aware of the natural desire of the House to express its opinion on these matters.
Mr. Reynolds: Will the Leader of the House tell us what progress is being made in the discussions he is having on the possible preparation of a simplified form of Order Paper for the business of the House?
Mr. Butler: We are pursuing it in a leisurely but determined fashion.
Mr. Driberg: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when time will be found to debate the Prayer with regard to the Summary Jurisdiction Bill (Isle of Man).
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which appears on the Order Paper as Early Day Motion No. 56?
[That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying her graciously to withhold her Assent from the Summary Jurisdiction Bill, lately passed in the Legislative Council and the House of Keys, which gives magistrates in the Isle of Man wider powers of imposing corporal punishment on children and young persons.]
Mr. Butler: I have information that the House of Keys has passed a Resolution on this matter and I have information, also, from the Member of the House of Keys who raised this matter that there is not a general desire that there should be a major conflict between the House of Keys and the House of Commons, which, I think, we should all deplore. I think that that is well realised in the Isle of Man, as, I hope, it is realised in the House of Commons. Subject to that, various matters of very great constitutional interest arise on this subject. I do not at present see any time for discussion, but, provided we all keep cool, we may resolve this issue.
Mr. Driberg: Keeping perfectly cool, as always, could the right hon. Gentleman at least give an undertaking that the Bill will not be presented for the Royal Assent until this House has had an opportunity to discuss it?
Mr. Butler: No, I could not give any undertaking of that sort; but I certainly think that I ought to have more time myself, as Home Secretary with a special responsibility in relation to the Constitution of the Isle of Man, to consider this matter at more leisure.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CARAVAN SITES AND CONTROL OF DEVELOPMENT BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.48 p.m.
  The Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Mr. Henry Brooke): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The modern caravan may move about, but it has come to stay. More and more people find caravans a lovely way of having holidays, even though caravans clustered together in the wrong places may be anything but lovely. Large numbers of people are living in caravans all the year round. This being a free country, they should be free to do so, although it may well be that most of them are hoping to move out of their caravans into houses of their own one day.
  The law relating to caravans leaves a lot to be desired. I doubt whether anyone would challenge that. Certainly not the caravan interests. Certainly not the local authorities. I believe that people generally, knowing that some caravan sites are bad and having read about troubles on some of them, have a common feeling that things are not really as they should be. That is definitely the view of the Government.
  The Bill represents a carefully worked out plan to do justice to caravaners, to get caravans on to the right sites and off the wrong ones, to bring attractiveness to caravan sites as well as all modern conveniences, to give freedom to the single travelling caravan, and to stop the caravan slum. The caravan is a comparative newcomer to the Statute Book. For many years, the so-called movable dwelling has had an established place in public health legislation, as has the canal boat.
  In the Housing Acts, too, there are some passing references to huts, tents, caravans and other transitory forms of shelter. There are also various provisions about caravans in local Acts, mostly in recent ones. Today, as far as I am aware, is the first occasion in Parliamentary history when the House of Commons has been asked to consider
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  general legislation dealing specifically and in detail with caravans. There is, perhaps, not quite the same novelty about the other topic in this Bill—town and country planning. That is in Part II of the Bill.
  Parts I and II are distinct, but, as I think the House will see, they are interrelated. For some time I have felt convinced of the need for caravan legislation, but before introducing it I wanted to make sure that we had the facts right. So, in 1958, I invited Sir Arton Wilson to make an investigation into the nature and the size of the problems which arise from the use of caravans as homes. I want to say, once again, how grateful I am to Sir Arton Wilson for his Report, for the wonderfully informative and well-balanced account that it contains.
  The Report made it abundantly clear that early legislation was needed, for one thing to regulate the better establishment of caravan sites, and for another thing to secure an improvement in living conditions on the sites. The Report was published in November last. We had consultations about it immediately with all the main interests concerned, and now here is the Bill, which, of course, covers not only residential caravans, but holiday caravans, too.
  Sir Arton Wilson, in his Report, estimates that about 150,000 people are living in caravans—that is, living in them as distinct from taking their holidays in them. Many of the residential caravan sites, he says, are wrongly located. Out of some 60,000 caravans in residential use, about 10,000 are stationed on sites which appear to have been established in contravention of planning control. Many of the sites are lacking in the facilities for decent living conditions. His Report sums it up thus—hon. Members will find this quotation on page 78:
  "A small minority of the residential caravan sites are really well located, attractive, and well-organised; a small minority are unpleasant and insanitary and ill-run; and the rest in varying degrees leave something to be desired as a physical and social environment for people's homes."
  There is no doubt that the blame for these deficiencies has largely to be laid on the shortcomings in the present statutory powers.

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  There is nothing in the slightest degree disreputable about living in a caravan. The modern caravan, with a high standard of furnishing and equipment, can offer very definite attractions to a good many people, even if it does lack something in living space. The mobility of the caravan is also an advantage to many people—people who have not yet taken root in a particular spot, so to speak, or people whose work requires them to be free to move from one place to another.
  The families who live in caravans are a fairly typical cross-section of the British public. The Government agree whole-heartedly with Sir Arton Wilson's finding that
  "The average residential caravanner is quite as respectable as the average dweller in bricks and mortar."
  Our aims must, therefore, be to improve and strengthen the statutory powers, to make sure in everybody's interest that caravan sites are properly located, properly equipped, and properly managed, while always respecting the feelings, the needs and the rights of those who make their homes or, indeed, take their holidays in caravans.
  There must be means, and effective means, to prevent caravan sites sprouting up where they would disfigure the countryside or spoil other people's legitimate enjoyment. There must be means of getting sites moved which have already been established in the wrong places; yet alongside this there must, without fail, be constructive action to make sure that the people who, for one reason or another, want to live in caravans, are able to do so in decent conditions. That is what Part I if the Bill seeks to achieve.
  Some local authorities, I know, have tended to adopt a negative and wholly restrictive attitude to caravans hitherto. After all, that is not surprising when their powers to prevent things going wrong have been so weak; but with the new powers which the new Bill will give, I hope that all local authorities will feel able now to pursue a more positive and constructive policy towards them henceforward. Unless my knowledge of local authority reactions is wholly at fault, I feel that they will.
  The Bill, so far as I am aware, contains nothing which should stir party controversy. Grateful as we are in the
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  Government for the general approval it has won in the Press and elsewhere, we shall welcome practical suggestions from both sides of the House for improving it further.
  Part I, which deals with caravan sites, applies to Scotland as well as to England and Wales, although my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland advises me that the problems are not yet so acute in Scotland as they are in England and Wales. There are two purposes here in Part I—to secure that caravan sites do not become established in the wrong places; and then to make sure that sites, when properly authorised from the planning standpoint, are well laid out and managed and equipped with proper sanitary and other services and facilities. The Bill achieves both these purposes by a licensing system to be operated by the local authorities.
  So far as caravans are concerned, this will take the place of the present licensing system for so-called moveable dwellings in the Public Health Act, 1936. Under the Bill, the licensing system is geared to the general existing system of planning control.
  Clause 1 puts the obligation to obtain a licence on the occupier of the land, that is to say, on the site operator, as he is called, rather than on the individual caravanners. It is the site operator and not the caravanner who is made liable to penalties under the Bill, whether it is for operating a site without a licence or for failing to comply with the conditions laid down in the licence.
  The key to the whole policy in Part I is that a site will not be eligible for a licence unless and until it has planning permission for caravan use. This is in Clause 3 of the Bill. But, once a site has planning permission, unless the permission has less than six months to run, the occupier of the site will be entitled as of right to a licence. And here let me say that if planning permission is given it should be long-term permission, in the normal case. I shall discourage the giving of planning permission for caravans for a short term of years, unless the land is likely to be available only for a short term.
  The licence may have conditions attached to it—to limit the number of caravans on a site; to regulate the layout generally; to require the provision of

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  water supplies, sanitary facilities and other necessary equipment and arrangements, and so forth. That provision is contained in Clause 4. Clause 6 provides a right of appeal to the magistrates against unreasonable conditions which a local authority might seek to impose.
  Under Clause 4 (6) the Secretary of State for Scotland and I will have power to prescribe model codes of licence provisions. I shall wish to consult caravan interests and local authority associations and to produce a code as soon as possible.
  Dr. Horace King: My local authority is worried lest there should be double standards, one for those who already have caravan sites and another for those who seek to promote new caravan sites under the provisions of the Bill. Can the Minister assure us that there will be one law for both groups?
  Mr. Dudley Williams: Can the Minister say whether he thinks that national standards should be laid down? As I understand, there may be great diversity of opinion among local authorities as to what are proper conditions.
  Mr. Brooke: That is covered by Clause 4, subsection (6), which says:
  "The Minister may from time to time specify for the purposes of this Section model standards with respect to the layout of, and the provision of facilities, services and equipment for, caravan sites … and in deciding what (if any) conditions to attach to a site licence, a local authority should have regard to any standards so specified."
  If, therefore, the site operator considers that the local authority has departed unreasonably from that model code, it will be a ground of appeal to the court that the authority has failed to have regard to the standards.
  I am not quite sure whether I appreciate the full implication of the intervention by the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Dr. King), but it is certainly my intention that there should be a general uniform standard throughout the country for sites both old and new, although there may be need for local variation. I also make an exception in Clause 16, which deals with conditions that may be attached to a site licence for requiring a run-down in the number of caravans on an existing site, but I do
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  not think that that was the kind of case which the hon. Member had in mind.
  Dr. King: The intervention of the hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Dudley Williams) obscured my point. I do not want absolute uniformity, but I want to be sure that in one local authority area the same kind of treatment is given to promoters of both new and old caravan sites. The old ones should not have lower standards applied to them than the same local authority insists upon in relation to the new ones.
  Mr. Brooke: That will be dealt with under the right of appeal to the court. Any site operator, new or old, will have a right of appeal on the ground that the local authority is unreasonably departing from the code prescribed by the Minister. There will be one code only, and not two for old and new caravan sites respectively.
  Dr. Barnett Stross: Has the Minister had consultations with the municipal associations in connection with the fact that the planning authority and the licensing authority may differ in many cases? I understand that licensing authorities have expressed to the Minister their fears that, although planning permission may be given for the use of land for a site, the effect of the provisions of the Public Health Act, 1936, in relation to sanitation, fire risks, and so on, may be such that planning authority cannot be given. Will the Minister say what advice he has given to local authorities in that connection?
  Mr. Brooke: That is an important point, which my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will desire to go into in greater detail. I thought that that question would be raised.
  My concern is that it should be the planning permission which determines whether there is to be a caravan site. We wish to ensure that it will not be possible for a local authority—for example, a district council—to frustrate planning permission by imposing unreasonable conditions which prevent the site being so used. The planning permission will prevail. Once that has been obtained the caravan site operator will have the right of appeal to the courts

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  if he thinks that the licensing conditions imposed upon him depart unreasonably from the model code.
  It is important that there should be some exemptions from the necessity to obtain a licence, and those exemptions are listed in Clause 2. They include sites which are managed for recreational purposes by bodies holding certificates from the Minister; sites for the caravans of farm workers; sites for the caravans of travelling showmen, and sites occupied by one, two or three caravans at most, and that temporarily—this provision being for people travelling with caravans on holiday.
  Those are the key purposes of the first ten Clauses, and it is in Clauses 11 to 17 that we come to the difficult problem of existing caravan sites.
  Mrs. Joyce Butler: Can the Minister give any guidance to planning authorities about applications in green belts?
  Mr. Brooke: I do not think that in the Bill we can give specific guidance to planning authorities. The Bill deals with the machinery.
  The Minister's policy—which, I hope, is a consistent one—emerges through his decisions on those appeal cases which come up. I am not suggesting that the production of the Bill will make a sudden change in the Minister's policy when appeals come to him. We are now seeking to try to improve the machinery for settling the question whether there shall or shall not be a caravan site. We cannot write into legislation all the considerations that the Minister should take into account when he decides cases on appeal.
  However, I am the servant of the House. I am responsible to the House for the decisions that I take on appeal, and I shall have to answer for them, in specific cases or in general, if hon. Members feel that the wrong line is being taken. But the Bill deals only with the machinery.
  Mr. Raymond Gower: It seems to me that there is one big gap in these provisions. Local authorities who run caravan sites do not appear to have to be licensed at present, and the Bill does not appear to contain any provision preventing them from putting themselves in a
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  very favourable position as opposed to other applicants.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend recognises that in some parts of the country the interests of the local authority may be diametrically opposed to those of persons wishing to become the owners of caravan sites. Does not my right hon. Friend think that some provision should be inserted in the Bill to make it necessary for local authorities to obtain licences—licences which will be granted not by themselves, but by other planning authorities?
  Mr. Brooke: I think that that point might be examined in Committee. Perhaps I might pass to Clauses 11 to 17, because I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Mr. Gower) was referring to Clause 18, which deals with powers of local authorities to run caravan sites themselves.
  Clauses 11 to 17 deal with existing caravan sites, namely, all the sites described in Sir Arton Wilson's Report and the existing holiday caravan sites, also. Clause 12 allows the operators of existing sites two months in which to apply for licences. If they have planning permission for caravans they will be entitled to a licence as of right. All those existing sites which are not covered by planning permission must be reviewed by the local planning authority. Hon. Members will find that that is dealt with in Clause 15.
  From the date when a licence is applied for, the planning authority will have six months in which to decide what to do; either to regularise the position by giving planning permission, in which case a licence will follow as of right, or, alternatively, to take steps to require the use of the site to be discontinued. If the planning authority does not take any steps at all within six months the site will be deemed to have planning permission and a licence will follow.
  Suppose a planning authority requires a site to be discontinued. It might be asked what will happen to any caravanners who were living permanently on that site. They may be able to look after themselves, they may have somewhere to go, or the local authority may be able to provide for them. The local authority may have a site of its own available. If not, under the provisions of the 1947 Town and Country

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  Planning Act, as amended by Part II of the Bill, it will be possible for the Minister to review all the circumstances and, if need be, to make sure himself that the site is run down by gradual stages without anybody being left homeless.
  That can be done by the Minister in the same sort of way that a local authority can do it by Clause 16 under its licensing powers, namely, to run down the numbers over a period by a process of national wastage, by prohibiting the replacement of caravans which are taken away from time to time, or prohibiting the coming of new families to take the place of families who leave the site of their own accord.
  If the planning authority thinks that a site which has planning rights for caravans is so offensive to the amenities that it ought to be brought to an end, the authority will have to make a discontinuance order and be prepared to pay compensation in the usual way, as with any other form of development which is ordered to be discontinued.
  I now come to Clause 18, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Barry referred. Clause 18 empowers local authorities to provide caravan sites themselves. It empowers them to buy land for this purpose, compulsorily if need be. They could buy an existing caravan site. A compulsory purchase order would have no effect unless it was confirmed by the Minister. The purpose of this power to provide caravan sites is to put a local authority in a position to ensure that a sufficiency of well equipped and well managed sites are available in its area if they are needed.
  Until now, local authorities have generally shown themselves most reluctant to establish caravan sites of their own. I shall be interested to hear what my hon. Friend the Member for Barry has to say, but, in general, far from having an active willingness to provide caravan sites, most local authorities have shied away from doing so because they know the problems that are involved. I do not think that the Bill will produce many sites run by local authorities, but it is essential that there should be the power.
  Let me illustrate that. A council might find it impossible to close down an existing site that was thoroughly unsatisfac-
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  tory unless it could provide an alternative site to which the caravanners could go. We cannot have people with nowhere to go. Compulsory purchase is a long-stop provision, which would come into play only if there was proved to be a real shortage of privately operated sites in some area, or if a private site was so bad and so neglected that in the interests of the caravanners there was nothing for it but for the local authority to take over and manage the site itself.
  I doubt whether I need call special attention to any other Clauses in Part I except Clause 25, which is the Scottish application Clause.
  Mr. Scholefield Alien: As the Minister is aware, there are some disgraceful sites. It is the irresponsible person who has disgraceful sites. Clause 14 says that the number shall not be increased from the number existing on the site at the beginning of the Act. The caravan season is beginning and it is probable that the undesirable man will rush in and increase the number of caravans on the site before the Act comes into operation. Will the Minister consider altering the date to that on which the Bill was printed, which is the beginning of the caravan season?
  Mr. Brooke: The Government considered this Clause carefully. The decision to insert in the Bill the words:
  "at the commencement of this Act"
  was a reasoned decision after considering various possibilities. This is a matter which might be discussed in Committee, but I think that it will be found, on consideration, that "at the commencement of this Act" is the most practicable date.
  I am sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman will appreciate that in certain places this Clause will require a kind of census to be taken by the local authority on the date in question, and that that census could hardly be taken retrospectively to the date of publication of the Bill, nor could the local authority have known that it had to take a census, or on what day the Bill was to be produced, but I welcome suggestions from all quarters for improving the Bill and I look forward to matters like this being carefully considered in Committee.
  We now come to Part II of the Bill, which applies only to England and Wales.
  Mr. A. J. Irvine: The Minister has been most courteous in giving way. Before he leaves Part I of the Bill, will he say what his view is about the extent to which this elaborate licensing system under Part I is an acknowledgement by him and by the Government of the weakness of the enforcement provisions? Public health and matters of that kind can be made the subject of planning permission. If he had complete confidence in his enforcement provisions, would there be any need for all these provisions for licences? What is the Ministers' answer to the criticism that Part I of the Bill is an acknowledgment of the weaknesses in Part II?
  Mr. Brooke: I must rebut that charge. I have no doubt at all that we need both the planning machinery and the licensing machinery. We are dealing with two different subjects. The planning machinery decides whether a certain area on the map is suitable for caravans or not. Then, thereafter, there will be the continuing questions, whether there are too many caravans on the site, whether there are proper washing facilities, proper sanitary facilities, and whether the place is being looked after and being kept tidy and all those sort of things.
  I put to the hon. and learned Gentleman that those matters cannot be covered by conditions laid down in a planning decision. They are much more akin to public health decisions and we must keep them distinct; though, as I have tried to show, we have sought to gear the two together so that there will not be contradictions arising from the use of the two methods of control.
  If I may continue to seek to explain Part II—
  Mr. William Ross: The Minister mentioned—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I would express the hope—I do not want to interrupt these exchanges—that the Minister may be given a chance to get on with his speech. I cannot give a warranty to the hon. Member that he will succeed in catching my eye, but I will do what I can.
  Mr. Ross: The point is that Scotland is mentioned only in Clause 25. There are modifications in subsection (1)
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  starting with letter (a) and going right through the alphabet to (m), and there are two more subsections. I should like to know exactly how Scotland is affected. Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to mention that?
  Mr. Brooke: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not like me to be the Minister to explain the application of the Bill to Scotland. He may be sure that the whole of Part I applies to Scotland. If, at a later stage in the debate, the hon. Gentleman succeeds in catching your eye, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland will be pleased to answer his questions and explain the provisions relating to Scotland. I had noticed that the Scottish language seems somewhat different from the English language, though I believe that essentially, apart from these diversities of language, the law is very much the same.
  Mr. Ross: Oh, no.
  Mr. Brooke: That is not the case with the town and country planning provisions in Part II of the Bill, which is concerned with the machinery for the enforcement of planning control in reflation not only to caravans but to development in general. As I understand, in Scotland the enforcement provisions under the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act are different, but my right hon. Friend the Secretory of State for Scotland takes the view that they are satisfactory and do not need amendment.
  No one. I think, would dare to say that of the position in England and Wales. The difficulties about the present enforcement procedure in Part III of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, are by now fairly notorious. They have been troubling the courts for some time. They have been criticised by lawyers as severely as by the planning authorities. The whole issue has been brought into special prominence by the caravan problem, but it is by no means confined to caravans.
  Experience with unauthorised caravan sites has shown how hard it can be to enforce effective control over development which might harm the countryside or injure the legitimate enjoyment of their amenities by other people; and, also, how easy it can be for someone who is so

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  inclined, and who knows his way about the provisions of the 1947 Act, to evade control for literally months on end.
  The main change brought about by Part II of the Bill affects the remedies open to a person who is served with an enforcement notice in respect of development which has been carried out without planning permission or, it may be, in breach of the conditions attached to a planning permission. For this purpose a development includes putting up buildings or carrying out works or using land in a different way. At present, a person who is served with an enforcement notice has two distinct remedies under Section 23 of the 1947 Act. He can challenge the merits of the enforcement notice by applying to the planning authority for planning permission for the development. Strange as it may seem, he can do this even if he has already applied and had his application refused.
  If he fails with the local authority, he can appeal to the Minister. He can go through the whole thing from beginning to end. As hon. Members know, all this can take up quite a long time. But the 1947 Act also empowers such a person to appeal to the magistrates' court against the terms of the enforcement notice. If he loses his appeal before the magistrates, there is a further right of appeal to quarter sessions. He can choose one or other of those two distinct courses, or, if he wishes, he can adopt both. He can pursue both courses at the same time, the law permits that. In that event, they proceed independently of one another which, as the House will realise, can produce not only delay, but quite a lot of confusion.
  They may cancel out one another. For example, while an appeal to the Minister on an application for planning permission is proceeding, the magistrates, or, indeed, quarter sessions, may quash the enforcement notice on the ground that no planning permission is required. Or, alternatively, the court might spend time hearing arguments about the validity of an enforcement notice and the Minister might give planning permission for the development, so that the enforcement notice would no longer be required. After the experience of the past ten years, I doubt whether anyone would defend this dual system as a workmanlike manner of proceeding.
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  The Government have considered carefully how these difficulties can best be relieved and we have taken account of the Franks Report. We have come to the conclusion that the commonsense solution would be to provide for a single remedy which will enable all points of the enforcement notice, whether on the validity of the notice or the planning merits of the case, to be determined at the same time and in one place. Clause 26 of the Bill does this by providing a direct right of appeal to the Minister against an enforcement notice.
  Of course, we want also to preserve the right of access to the court on points of law. This is hardly work for petty sessions, so Clause 27 provides a right of appeal to the High Court on any question of law arising out of the decision of the Minister on an appeal. That Clause also enables the Minister, either on his own initiative, or, if he is required to do so by either party, to state a case for the opinion of the High Court.
  Naturally, all this, indeed the whole of Part II of the Bill, will apply to enforcement proceedings generally in England and Wales, whatever form of development is concerned. The defects in the present provisions are general though they have been highlighted by the particular case of caravans.
  I invite the attention of the House to Clause 29, which makes further provision for securing compliance with enforcement notices relating to buildings or works as distinct from uses of land. As the law stands at present, failure to comply with an enforcement notice which requires a use of land to be discontinued constitutes an offence, but there is no similar provision in the present law regarding enforcement notices which require the removal or alteration of buildings which have been erected, or perhaps works which have been carried out without planning permission. Or it may be in breach of the conditions attaching to a planning permission.
  The only method of enforcement now is for the local authority to undertake the job of demolition or alteration itself and recover the cost from the owner of the land. This may not be at all satisfactory. Clause 29 makes failure to comply with an enforcement notice relating to

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  buildings or works an offence for which the owner of the land will be liable to a penally, as is already the law in regard to enforcement notices relating to the use of land.
  The other Clauses in Part II of the Bill make comparatively minor Amendments to and clarifications of the law as to enforcement notices. If hon. Members have questions to raise on the detail of these or any other Clauses my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will endeavour to answer them when he winds up the debate. I hope that I have met the wish of the House by focusing my speech on the major purposes and proposals of the Bill, for only if the intended policy is clear will the detail fall into place. A number of hon. Members have residential or holiday caravans in their constituencies. I know that the hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes) has, for I have seen quite a number of caravan sites in that lovely island.
  I shall listen with special interest to the views of those hon. Members on the Bill. I hope that they, and also hon. Members who have a close knowledge of the important provisions dealt with in Part II, will support the main ideas of the Bill on Second Reading and then give us the benefit of their experience in Committee. The Government want the Bill to be a protection for the public interest and a caravanners' charter as well.
  4.31 p.m.
  Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: The Minister has given us a clear exposition of the Bill and what he hopes it will achieve. I say at once that we shall give the Bill our support, although we have some reservations in relation to detail that we shall make both now and later, during the Committee stage.
  I wish to endorse what the Minister said and to pay tribute to Sir Arton Wilson for his admirable Report, "Caravans as Homes". I was greatly impressed by it and by the sympathy and understanding which Sir Arton brought to bear upon his task. I also read with profit another publication, the "Survey of Residential Caravan Life", by P. G. Gray and Elizabeth Parr. The problems which these two Reports bring to light are very great. I wish to mention some of them before I deal with the Bill itself.
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  because, as the Minister said, this is a new and complex social development in Britain for which existing legislation does not cater.
  In recent years the number of caravans for holiday and residential purposes has increased tremendously. In 1938, the industry's output of caravans was about 1,000; in 1948, it was 3,600; in 1958, 36,500, with a total retail value estimated at £14,600,000. That is getting on for very big business indeed. Production is continuing to rise year by year. I understand that the estimated total number of caravans of all types in this country at present is over 200,000. The Minister has told us that the number used as permanent homes is 60,000. That was an estimate given in the Report, but probably it is considerably more now. The remainder are used by gipsies, or solely for holiday purposes.
  It is worth noting that a large number of the caravans now used by people more or less as permanent homes were originally intended for touring only. They were not constructed for the purpose of being used as caravan homes. The important point to bear in mind, as the Minister said, is that over 150,000, one in 300 of the total population, now live in caravans. These people live on 13,000 sites, 3,000 multiple sites containing about 48,000 caravans and 10,000 individual sites containing 12,000 caravans. This is a large section of our community. It gives some idea of the magnitude of the problem which we face. We must never forget that a very high proportion of the caravan dwellers are young people. The Arton Wilson Report estimated that out of the total caravan population of 150,000 about 20,000 are children under five and 10,000 are school children.
  Where are these caravan homes to be found? The Report states that they are sited mainly in two types of area. The first area attracts retired people and the second is the area where industry is expanding—Coventry, Luton, the fringe of the Greater London area, and so on. To get the Bill into right perspective it is necessary for us to understand why so many of our fellow citizens are today living in caravan homes. The Report concluded that on all the evidence available a very large number of these families, nearly half the total, live in caravans because they are unable to obtain permanent homes. That is a fact that

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  we must bear in mind when we are considering housing needs.
  Of course, there are people who prefer to live in caravans. They would not choose to live anywhere else. The wishes of those people have to be respected. Generally, they are middle-aged and elderly people who have found their previous homes too expensive, or too big to manage. A caravan provides a small self-contained home which is easy to run and relatively cheap to run after initial outlay. There are about 6,000 of these caravans. Sir Arton Wilson's remarks on this are interesting. He said:
  "The people in this group appear, for the most part, to form a particularly contented section of the caravan community."
  The evidence shows—and I must stress it to the Minister—that 80 per cent., or 50,000 of the caravans' households, are of people who do not wish to go on living there indefinitely. In other words, if there were the possibility now of obtaining a house, a flat or a bungalow those people would move. The problem, therefore, is closely related to the housing problem and to that extent the Bill is only a partial answer. By stimulating council house building, particularly in areas where caravan homes are most numerous, the Minister could mitigate the difficulties which now confront local authorities.
  It is also a point of importance that the caravan dwellers are young, respectable people in good employment. In many cases, they are living with young children in squalid surroundings. It is unlikely that many of those people are on current council house waiting lists. I ask the Minister to consider this aspect of the problem with the very greatest care. It is not right nor desirable for so many young families to continue indefinitely to live in caravans if they are anxious to secure permanent homes. The danger is that we shall create rootless communities when these people desire to become a more permanent part of the societies in which they live.
  I would not decry the well-designed, modern caravan and the well-planned site. Some people prefer it and it fulfils an important function. It is a development in our society which we must accept and which local authorities, in particular, must now absorb, but the
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  numbers of caravan homes must not be allowed to increase at the present rate merely because of housing deficiencies. Far too many caravans are overcrowded. I understand that about one-quarter of the total, used as permanent homes, or about 15,000 caravans are overcrowded. On many sites, sanitary arrangements are deplorable. This must constitute a potential danger to public health. I hope that the Bill will have the effect of rapidly improving these conditions.
  One matter which has caused concern is the fitness of many caravans for habitation. I refer especially to their structure by comparison with, for example, permanent housing. Before a house can be built, the byelaws must be complied with and high standards observed, but there are no comparable safeguards for caravan homes. About 15,000 to 20,000 caravans are of inferior quality. The Minister referred to Clause 4, which gives local authorities powers in this direction, and I hope that it will make for improvement.
  Would it not have been better to set national standards of construction? Will there not tend to be a lack of uniformity as between one district and another? I understand that steps were taken to put this point to the Minister. It has been advocated for some time that if minimum national standards were set the quality of caravans would be better. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary, when he replies, will give us his views on this matter, and say why the course in Clause 4 has been decided upon rather than the fixing of national standards.
  Although it is supported by the Opposition, the Bill has its shortcomings and weaknesses. We hope that these will be put right before we part with it. For example, the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke on Trent, Central (Dr. Stross), in his intervention, was one of substance, although the Minister did not deal with it to my entire satisfaction. One of the chief administrative weaknesses of the Bill is that the dual control by local planning authorities and district councils is retained. The Minister has criticised dual control in dealing with Part II, but dual control is still retained in Clause 4, with resultant overlapping.
  The situation, as I see it, is that control over strictly planning, matters, such

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  as amenity, tree planting and layout of sites, is given to district councils. This can lead to great administrative confusion These matters can be the subject of conditions laid down in the planning permission, but under the Bill it is possible for different conditions on precisely the same subjects to be attached to the site licence by the district council. In other words, the planning authority, on the one hand, in granting planning permission, can lay down conditions about planning and the district council, on the other hand, independently of the planning authority, will lay down conditions upon similar matters.
  There is the additional anomaly that appeal against conditions on the planning permission lies to the Minister, whilst appeal against similar conditions on the licence is to the magistrates' court. This overlapping could have been avoided. Either the two codes of control should be combined under the planning authority or, if there is overwhelming objection to that, the district council should be required to consult the planning authority before issuing site licences, to ensure that no conditions on the licence are inconsistent with the conditions on the planning permission. That is a substantial criticism of the Bill.
  The Minister will be aware of the additional point that many small district councils do not have the qualified and experienced staff competent to deal with planning matters of this nature. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will give us his considered views about this before the end of the debate.
  The definition of "caravan site" in the Bill may also lead to administrative confusion. Should not the area of land concerned be more precisely denned? For example, if three or four caravans are located in the corner of a 10-acre field, what comprises the caravan site? Surely the site should be capable of being shown clearly on a plan so as to leave no room for doubt or dispute. This aspect has caused difficulty in the past and I should have thought that the Bill would give the Minister an opportunity to lay down a more precise definition of the site.
  Site difficulties may also be created by Clause 2 (2, a). This could well lead to the establishment of a site within the curtilage of a dwelling-house. As I read
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  the Bill, there is no restriction whatever on the number of caravans that can be brought in. There could well be great difficulties in enforcement. Here again, the Minister might well consider limiting the number of caravans on such a site to one. That, however, may be a matter for Committee and, possibly, the right hon. Gentleman will consider introducing a suitable Amendment.
  Nor am I happy about the definition of "caravan", in Clause 23. Unless it is broadened, the definition may well take thousands of vehicles outside the provisions of the Bill and may well defeat its purposes. The definition of a caravan as a vehicle
  "which is capable of being moved from one place to another"
  suggests a degree of mobility which many older caravans no longer possess. These are the ones which are in the poorest condition. In some cases, adaptations have been made. During the last few days, I visited a site and saw a number of caravans which an army of workmen would be required to move, such is the nature of the additions. In many cases, the appendage is greater than the caravan. Huts and shacks have been built on to them. What is the position? Are these covered by the definition in Clause 23? Chalets also are to be found mixed up with caravans on caravan sites. Are these chalets, which are fairly easily dismantled and removed, covered by the definition in Clause 23?
  I am not sure that the Bill gives local authorities sufficient time to examine existing sites. The time afforded by Clause 15 is six months. If we consider the manifold problems presented by a large multiple site in poor condition, the time might well be extended to twelve months, so that the planning authorities and councils may have ample time to examine existing conditions and formulate their policy as to which sites should be continued and which should be closed.
  I shall be grateful if the Parliamentary Secretary will say whether the proposer of a caravan site who loses his appeal has the right to start all over again at once. Can he turn himself into a kind of vexatious litigant? As soon as the Minister rejects his appeal, a proposer who has a little money may decide to have another go at once, with the result

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  that he continues to create alarm and despondency among the people who live around him. If this is possible, should not the Bill include a time limit within which an appeal cannot be renewed? I have also been asked—I think that I should make this point to the Minister—whether people who are adversely affected by the grant of a site licence should not have the right of appeal as well as the applicant.
  The Minister dealt at some length with Clause 18, which enables local authorities to provide caravan sites. I agree with him that this is to be welcomed. Indeed, there is a strong case for allowing local authorities to have their own caravans as well as caravan sites. This provision will enable local authorities to set a high standard of planning and layout, which others may emulate.
  There are many private sites which are exemplary. Paragraph 114 of the Arton Wilson Report says:
  "… I have formed the view that a very small minority of the multiple sites are positively charming, a few hundred are fairly good, and the rest in varying degrees leave something to be desired—including perhaps a few hundred which by any standards are quite horrible."
  That evidence is most disturbing. I hope that the Bill will have the effect of raising site standards, but that, in addition, by allowing local authorities to run their own sites, councils will be given the opportunity to show what can be done with a little care and imagination, and perhaps a little more spending, as well.
  This morning I received a circular letter from the National Federation of Caravan Site Operators. The federation is disappointed that the Bill contains no provision for giving security of tenure to existing site owners. One agency—Caravan Services Limited— suggests a term of fifteen years renewable. It says—I think that it is a valid point—that without such security it will be uneconomic for the site operator to spend money on bringing a camp up to an approved standard.
  Mr. H. Brooke: I sought to deal with that point in my speech by saying that I would set my face against planning permission being given for short terms. The Minister does hold that in his hand,
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  because there is a right of appeal to the Minister against a condition or term being inserted in the planning permission. Unless I was convinced that there was a real local cause for making the planning permission terminable after a short period of years, I would, in general, allow appeals for a longer term of years, if not for permanency.
  Mr. Hughes: I appreciate what the right hon. Gentleman has said. To avoid any misunderstanding or delay, or even the necessity for an appeal to him, perhaps he will make this abundantly clear to local authorities, either by circular or in some other way.
  I am bound to point out, in passing, that caravan sites are a good business proposition, and that many people have made much money out of them. But many of these people have not given very much away. Because councils will now have stronger powers of control, they will be more inclined to grant long-term planning permission and to encourage the provision of good site facilities. It is to be hoped that local authorities will now adopt a positive and constructive approach to the entire problem and that better relations between the various parties will, therefore, ensue.
  In considering the security of the site operator, we should not forget the caravan dweller's security of tenure. It seems to me at present that that is the more important of the two. As the law stands, a caravanner can be turned off a site at a week's notice. That is the extent of his security. From this, two evils appear to stem. First, an unscrupulous operator—unfortunately, there are some of those amongst us— is free to turn people off the sites, thereby creating vacancies for which "key money" can be demanded. The second evil is that an operator can give notice to a whole community of caravanners to quit in a short period of time.
  There have been cases of this kind. The eviction of a large number of caravanners from a caravan site inevitably presents the local authority concerned with an enormous problem. I feel that some protection—some measure of security—should be written into the Bill, and that this is something which we shall discuss in Committee.

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  I do not think that the special interest of the travelling showmen of this country should go unmentioned. This is a reputable section of the caravanning community which has enjoyed a degree of protection and consideration for many years. It is a small community of about 4,000 and its livelihood depends upon its freedom to travel around the country and find suitable winter quarters. I am glad to see that travelling showmen are among the exemptions in Clause 2.
  I have sought to deal with some basic problems and with certain aspects of the Bill. I have not mentioned the amenities of the countryside. I think that every hon. Member is concerned to protect the beauty of our land. Each week, when I go to my constituency, I travel along one of the most beatutiful coastlines in Britain—the North Wales coast. As many hon. Members know, parts of that coast are hideously defaced by camps which have grown over the years. We often hear of the scars inflicted upon our countryside by industry—"How Green was my Valley"—but we seldom hear of the scars which are inflicted upon our countryside by the tourist industry at its worst. I think that the Bill will improve matters in that direction.
  Caravanning for holiday purposes is on the increase, and it deserves proper encouragement. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central (Mr. Short) knows far more about this aspect of the problem than I do, and he will no doubt deal with it when he winds up the debate from this side of the House.
  The rights and needs of those who live in caravans must also be respected. We know that there are bad sites which present local authorities with almost insuperable difficulties. We know that there are site operators who exploit people desperately in need of a home and a house. But there are good sites and there are conscientious site operators.
  This is more than a mere planning matter It is a large, human problem and a new social development. Given good will and understanding between local authorities, site operators and caravan dwellers, I believe that the Bill will make a substantial contribution to the solution of the difficulties which now exist. We
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  on this side of the House will do all we can to improve it and to secure its speedy passage through all its stages.
  4.59 p.m.
  Mr. William Roots: It is, perhaps, fortunate, in the light of the mood of the House, that I, too, welcome the Bill, but I hope to take advantage of the invitation of the Minister to make a few suggestions which, I hope, if they lack the wisdom and experience of my predecessor as Member for Parliament for Kensington, South, at least will prove useful. If they do not, I shall have to seek the traditional indulgence of the House and of my right hon. Friend.
  No doubt the most newsworthy portion of the Bill, as its name implies, is Part I, which relates to caravans, but I welcome in particular Part II, which has a much wider range. I do not think it is putting it too high to say that existing provisions have practically ground to a standstill because of delay and expense and because they are thoroughly impracticable. They have indeed caught the unfortunate, while many a rascal slipped through the net.
  I have only three suggestions to make, and the first two can be put quite shortly. I suggest to the Minister that it is unfortunate that, in an excellent endeavour to achieve one channel of appeal and the settlement of disputes in Part II, he should confine the method by which the High Court can deal with these matters, because there are a number of possible methods by which the court can deal with them, some of which might well be both cheaper and quicker than the remedy laid down in the Bill. I hope that at a later stage the right hon. Gentleman will consider suggestions on these lines, and, similarly, that he will consider widening the scope of some of the Clauses after Clause 26, which appear to be directed primarily, at any rate, at owners who, generally, are not those who will be carrying out any development. It will be the occupiers. Therefore, I hope that perhaps my right hon. Friend may be able to have second thoughts about that.
  The most important factor to which I should like to draw attention is that the improved procedure for the enforcement notices is likely to be very largely nullified unless it is possible to achieve

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  some expedited hearing by the Minister's inspectors and a decision by his Department. At the present time, no doubt through no fault of the Minister, it takes anything up to four or five months to get a decision, and in many cases I do not doubt that is necessary. I suggest, however, that it cannot be beyond the wit of man to achieve a more expeditious system in what I would call certified cases, where it is clear that a new development has taken place which may well be objectionable. That is not to be confused with the many cases where haste may not be welcomed.
  There are cases where a local authority wants to serve an enforcement notice, and is extremely glad, as is the owner of the site, that there may be some delay in having a hearing. There may be a number of reasons for that, but the reason I stress this aspect in my own case, apart from its general importance in the whole country, is that, in my own constituency, and even more so in the area of West London, we are suffering from a major social evil which this Clause, and to some extent Part I, sets out to meet.
  I refer to the so-called social clubs, which are appalling drinking dens, which are springing up and which take so long to close that they are in fact a major social factor in racial troubles and vicious practices of every kind. It must be possible that, when the local authority serves an enforcement notice, that sort of case can be heard by the Minister and decided in a matter, if not of days, at any rate of weeks. Nobody has challenged the enormous harm which this sort of development is causing. We should indeed be shedding crocodile tears if, having substantial powers to mitigate, if not stop, that evil, we disregarded it because to deal with it might be administratively difficult. Therefore, I urge as vehemently as I can that a system of expedited hearings of appeals in respect of enforcement notices should be instituted by the Minister as quickly as he possibly can.
  I have one final word to address to the House on the caravan aspect, and here I take up a point made by the hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes). I would press upon the Minister the need for controlling caravans sited in some of the more beautiful parts of our coun-
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  try, and would point out to him that, from a caravan site owner's point of view, there could be no more delectable pot of honey than an area of great natural beauty or scenic value, or, indeed, a National Park. That is a joy beyond all other joys, for a variety of reasons, but particularly the financial one.
  I should be glad if the Minister could make some statement, as strong as his statement about the green belts round London and the major towns, that only overwhelming circumstances will induce him to permit an area of great natural beauty to be used for caravans and other objects.
  5.6 p.m.
  Dr. Barnett Stross: I am sure that everyone in the House, and certainly myself, enjoyed very much the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Kensington, South (Mr. Roots). I should like to congratulate him, as I am sure we all do, on the speech to which we have just listened. I do so very sincerely as his constituent, and I look forward, as I am sure everyone else does, to hearing him on frequent occasions. His modesty compelled him tentatively to suggest that this was perhaps the first time he had addressed the House, though no one would have dreamed for a single moment that he was anything but the accomplished orator which he has shown himself to be. If I was unable to assist or oppose him on the occasion when he was elected, it was due to the fact that I had an engagement in another place.
  This Bill is to be greatly welcomed for a number of reasons. I have listed them, but they are apparent and obvious now that the Minister himself has spoken to us. We are faced by an increase in the numbers of caravans, and that is the first point.
  Secondly, we know that there has been, and still is, conflict between the local authorities and caravan dwellers. I think The Times was very flattering, and in this case rightly so, about the Bill, when it used these words in the heading to a recent article:
  "Caravan Sites Bill seeks to end causes of conflict."
  That is a very good thing for legislation to attempt to do. In fact, that word

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  "conflict" exists in order that we should legislate to bring it to an end, and reach a settlement in the best interests of all those involved.
  Thirdly, we know that there are obvious deficiencies in the existing law, and one point made so strongly by the hon. and learned Member for Kensington, South, which must be borne in mind, is that we cannot allow delay in the machinery for appeal if the Bill is to be properly effective.
  Fourthly, and certainly not of least importance, is the growing threat which we have noticed to amenity throughout the countryside, and the need to preserve the green belts wherever possible. Lastly, the Bill gives fair warning to delinquent people that they cannot exploit their fellow citizens who buy land from them —and I will quote an instance in a moment—only to find that they have no rights in that land at all and have to quit.
  The fact that there is an annual increase of 11,000 or 12,000 in the number of people who buy caravans to live in—quite apart from those who buy them for holiday purposes—is a very serious matter. We all know that, not only here but in many countries in the West where the standard of living is high, caravans have come to stay for people who like to use them for pleasure, but that, equally, caravans have come to stay for use as residential homes by certain groups of people.
  The transferred worker may find it most difficult to get proper accommodation, except in a caravan. There are workers who move round all their lives from job to job. They find that they are often best helped by living in a caravan. My hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes) mentioned retired elderly people who, their income being small, find it attractive to buy a caravan, either new or second-hand, because it frees them from the load of overhead charges that attach to keeping a permanent home going. We all have every sympathy with those people.
  A small group of people will always be enthusiasts, and will want to live half in and half out of the open air—in a caravan. No one in this House, I am sure, will deny them the right so to live. All that we can, and should, do—and that is the purpose of this legislation—
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  is to make things better for them, to see that they are not exploited, and that the sites on which they live are as good as possible.
  The last, and most important, group for whom we are catering consists of the young married couples who are tired of waiting for a house; who cannot afford to buy one, or for whom there is not one available; who find furnished rooms unsuitable—and very expensive—and who, strangely enough will not live with the in-laws.
  Human beings are rather like the birds of the air and the beasts of the field. The birds of the air have their own nests —they do not share a nest with their fathers and mothers. So it is with all warm-blooded animals. Psychologically, human beings are well advised to set up a home of their own as soon as they are married. There can be no argument about that, and it is particularly true if they want children.
  These young married people, who comprise 25 per cent. of the 60,000 people mentioned in the excellent Report by Sir Arton Wilson are both compelled and attracted by the caravan. I have mentioned the compulsion—they cannot get a proper permanent home in any other way—and the attraction is quite apparent. There are no mortgages to pay off, no legal costs, and no furniture to buy. They can have occupation at once. They are very much in love, having married recently—and if they are not in love then they will not easily be in love afterwards. They get privacy, and an attractive small home. It is desirable that the local authorities, which are to be the agents in this matter, should cater for them in particular.
  I had a letter this morning from one of the dealers in caravans in my constituency. There is not a single site run by the local authority, and the local authority does not allow a site anywhere within its area. I must admit that within the confines of the great City of Stoke-on-Trent one would not normally want to live in a caravan if one could get a more permanent home.
  What is interesting in the letter sent to me, is that the writer states that some 65 per cent. of his business is for residential caravans and, as there are no licenced sites, those who require accommodation have to go to unauthorised

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  sites. We know very well that the law is being broken by many people. The truth is that the present law is a bad one—at any rate, it needs improving— and that the Bill makes a real attempt to improve it is an additional reason for my welcoming it.
  The Report makes very clear a number of points about the conflict between local authorities and caravan dwellers There must, in the past, have been some association in the minds of local authorities and their citizens suggesting that people who do not live in a house made with bricks and mortar must be some kind of gipsy, or must be like tinkers, and that they should, therefore, be frowned on: "They are not a regular part of the population. They do not integrate well". That type of thinking has led local authorities to feel that they do not want caravan dwellers.
  Local authorities ask, "Why should we have them? Fifty per cent. of all caravans are overcrowded, according to any standards. Fire risks are serious, and we have not been able to do very much about it". Medical officers of health ask, "What about risks of infectious disease? Such diseases can spread through an encampment like wildfire". That is what some say, but no real evidence has been brought forward to prove that it is so. As a medical man, I sometimes wonder whether the type of life lived by caravanners does not make them very much more immune from the average infectious disease than are we who live in cities and towns.
  There is, of course, serious risk of one or two diseases, such as polio, if proper sanitary conveniences are not available, if there is not an adequate supply of suitable drinking water, and so on. By and large, however, let us not make too much of this risk of infectious disease among these people, because, as I say, we have not the evidence.
  The local authorities are well within their rights when they say that the caravan is probably not the best place to have a baby or to rear a young family. I think that it is accepted that, when the children come, the average young couple do their very best to get a more permanent dwelling built of bricks and mortar. Part of that, of course, is our essential responsibility. It is up to the com-
  708
  munity to see that houses are available at reasonable prices.
  I am told that about one-third of all the caravanners in Surrey are living in contravention of the Town and Country Planning Acts. That, again, is evidence of the need for legislation to regularise the position. Local authorities are sometimes blamed because, in the past, they have not used the enforcement procedure, but councillors and aldermen say, "The procedure is slow, difficult and expensive, and when we are successful we are accused of being cruel."
  For that reason I welcome the fact that, by this legislation, alternative sites will automatically be made available, and that the run-down of existing unsatisfactory sites—for whatever reason they may be unsatisfactory—will be under control, and that people cannot and will not be rendered homeless. The rehousing of caravanners has brought great difficulties to local authorities in the past. They have been criticised by their own citizens, who may have been waiting for years to get houses and then find that, because of the desperate urgency to rehouse caravanners, they are put aside in favour of those who, to them, are strangers, and people not long resident in the area.
  All in all, therefore, we can appreciate that there have been plenty of reasons for tension, and the time is ripe, and more than ripe, for action to be taken. The Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey, and the hon. Member for Kensington, South have all made it quite clear that some alteration in the law is needed, and we find that alteration in Part II of the Bill. I believe the truth to be that powers as they exist today were framed to deal with dwellings that were not caravans, and with caravans that were not dwellings.
  There are weaknesses in the Public Health Acts and in the Town and Country Planning Acts. We have heard from the Minister how, between the two procedures under those Acts, time can be wasted. Up to now, when a notice has been served it has been possible for the owner of the site to go from magistrate to Minister, or to petty sessions, and back again to make a new application— and so it goes on.
  As I have said, the Town and Country Planning Acts were never designed for

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  this purpose. I am not a lawyer, and therefore I am not sure, but I shall listen with great care in the Standing Committee, if I am so fortunate as to serve on it, to the way the lawyers in the Committee will tackle Part II of the Bill to see whether they are content with it or whether it needs strengthening. I am quite sure that the Committee will want to make the Bill as good as possible.
  While the Minister was speaking I interrupted him to ask a question. It was based on the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Sir G. Benson) had asked me to raise the matter because he could not be in his place this afternoon: he is in a Select Committee. The Town Clerk of Chesterfield wrote to my hon. Friend and ended his letter with the following sentence:
  "I hope that you will feel that you can support the contention that the granting of planning permission to establish a caravan site should not necessarily mean that the District Council must issue the licence for such a site under the Public Health Act."
  The letter made reference to conversations with the Minister's advisers, who made it clear to the Association of Municipal Corporations that local planning authorities must—I emphasise the word "must"—consult the licensing authorities, that is, the district councils, before giving planning permission for caravan sites.
  It is not for me, of course, to do the Parliamentary Secretary's work—I am not well-equipped to do it—but it seems to me that the Town Clerk of Chesterfield may have overlooked paragraph 180 on page 45 of the Report. The beginning of paragraph 180 states:
  "But local authorities have found that their power to refuse or attach conditions to such licences—subject to appeal to the justices—is in practice quite circumscribed"
  It then goes on to describe what the local authorities cannot do or take into account under the 1936 Act. I think it is Section 268, and similar Sections. The Report says that the field in which the local authorities can act is pretty narrow.
  If that be the case, then it seems to me that the local authorities, in consultation always with the planning authorities—that is to say, the licensing authorities and the planning authorities—will be much better off in the matter than they have been hitherto.
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  I have said how much I welcome Part II of the Bill which strengthens enforcement powers. I now wish to say a word about amenities. The threat to amenity was mentioned by the Minister. He said how essential it was to bring attractiveness to caravan sites. We had a moving description from the hon. Member for Anglesey of how the loveliest coastline in Britain and certainly in Wales is being spoiled by carelessness and selfishness.
  It seems to me that inevitably there is a conflict between preserving the green belts policy and the fact that caravanners —and this has been mentioned already— desire to settle in areas which are beautiful. But they also wish to settle in areas which are economically expanding. People want to go to Coventry or to Birmingham in order to earn higher wages. These cities are surrounded by tentative green belts. The caravanners cannot settle in the middle of the cities because the police would move them on; so they settle outside, and where they settle happens to be in the green belts.
  Inevitably, therefore, we get conflicts. It is high time that the local authorities should be given the powers which are now proposed, and perhaps even stronger powers, to assist in the proper settlement of these people who come in to earn a living and help the country's economy.
  We must be tremendously careful as far as coastal scenery and the countryside are concerned, but I am sure that much can be done to ameliorate the present position. I thought—and I say this with respect—that the Bill seemed weak on this aspect. Under Clause 4 (2, d), site proprietors will be expected to improve the appearance of the site. One of the conditions attached is that site proprietors shall do certain things in connection with amenity, such as the planting of shrubs and trees and the laying out of gardens.
  The proprietors may well declare that they cannot do that. They might say, "We get a regular wind blowing in from the sea. Nothing will grow, and there is the salt spray, and so on." I hope that in Committee we shall have an interesting argument about this subject. I hope, too, that among the other conditions which the local authorities will be able to force upon the site owner will be the condition that if the local authority really feels that there should be an

  711
  improvement in amenity by the planting of trees and shrubs and the laying out of gardens and proper paths, and if the site owner does not do it, then the local authority shall do it and charge for it. I leave that point because it is essentially one for the Committee.
  Lastly, there is the question of protecting from exploitation the public who use caravans. The Bill gives a warning to would-be exploiters and delinquent people. In the Architects' Journal of 25th February this year there is a most interesting description of what happened recently when the Minister had to intervene. It is entitled, "Not Quite Funny". I am sure that the Parliamentary Secretary will have had it drawn to his attention.
  In brief, a firm declared that it owned some land. Actually it did not own the land when it advertised it for sale. It only bought the land a month after it had sold the plots. The firm pointed out in the advertisement what fun it would be to have these freehold plots. It said that it had eighty-eight acres of land about thirty miles from London in the Dorking and Horley Rural District Council area. I think that it is two miles from Ockley.
  The firm bought these eighty-eight acres of land, which, I believe, were of no use for agricultural purposes, but which were quite beautiful. It divided up the land and advertised it, telling people what great fun they could have
  "using the land outside the scope of the planning act—picnicking, cooking over a camp fire, pitching a tent, creating a garden or a tennis court …"
  About a thousand people applied to buy the plots and a month ago all but, I believe, twelve of the plots had been bought at prices ranging from about £140 to £180 an acre. The article suggests that the land was bought for about £25 an acre. Therefore, it will be seen that there was a quick turnover with a profit of 600 per cent.
  There were some normal citizens living in the area—not many, I think— and they appealed to the right hon. Gentleman. As a result of that appeal a notice has been put up which reads:
  "WARNING. Planning permission has not been given for the placing of caravans on the land on either side of this road. A Direction has been approved by the Minister of Housing and Local Government requiring
  712
  such planning permission to be obtained before any caravan is placed on the land even for one day or any part of a day."
  So people have lost their right to use the land. They have paid expensively for something which is no longer attractive to them. They cannot stay there. The article tells us that there are two people who could not move away because they have nowhere else to go. I am sure that they will not be driven off, because the whole purpose of the Bill we are now discussing is not to drive homeless people away from where they are.
  The firm which has done that has made it clear that it intends to do the same at Poole in Dorset at another beauty spot. It is just as well that this afternoon we are giving that firm due warning that it will not be very successful and, if those concerned attempt it. they may well burn their fingers and lose their money.
  There is a great deal in the Bill which is good and I welcome it most warmly. There are plenty of details which in Committee we may be able to improve, and I am sure that we shall all enjoy ourselves in trying to do so.
  5.31 p.m.
  Mr. John M. Temple: I add my congratulations to those of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) in thanking my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington, South (Mr. Roots) for his most informative and well delivered maiden speech. I am sure that we all look forward to hearing him again on many occasions.
  I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government on bringing forward the Bill so swiftly after the receipt of Sir Arton Wilson's Report. I shall concentrate on Part I of it, which deals with caravan sites. Incidentally, I should say that for two weeks I have been away from the House in Caracas, the capital of Venezuela. In Caracas, there is an immense housing problem, the problem presented by 300,000 people who have arrived in that city and who are now living in shack dwellings. My right hon. Friend is very fortunate that he is not Minister of Housing in Venezuela today.
  I wish to declare my interest here. I am a vice-president of the Rural District

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  Councils' Association. The association has written to me to say that it welcomes the Bill as a much needed piece of legislation. I am in close contact, also, with many of the organisations which are responsible for the caravan industry. I know that I can say that the Bill is given a universal welcome throughout the industry. I am glad, however, that my right hon. Friend has made it clear that he looks upon the Bill as a constructive Measure, one from which will flow constructive and positive action. Those were his words. I hope that by positive action he means that he envisages expansion in the caravan industry.
  I wish to deal with certain aspects of caravanning which are rather different from those already touched upon. I shall discuss the present position and endeavour to forecast future trends, because I believe that future trends are what we must concentrate upon when framing our legislation. This Bill, no doubt, will be operative for some years to come.
  During the last few months, I have had the opportunity of personal consultation with almost all those who are interested in caravans, with the associations which represent caravanners, with the site operators and. with the local authorities. All were agreed that legislation was necessary. Sir Arton Wilson is quite categorical in many respects, but about one thing he is absolutely definite. He says that caravans have come to stay.
  The hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes) gave us some of the figures, and from those figures I do not at all dissent. I would go on from the global total of 200,000 caravans at present, 60,000 being residential caravans, and say that, in my opinion, half of the residential caravans are definitely substandard. But, whereas a short time ago, I was of the opinion that the residential sector of caravanning was relatively static, I have now changed my mind. I am reinforced in my present view by paragraph 331 (d) of Sir Arton Wilson's Report, where he says:
  "demand shows no sign of slackening."
  He quite definitely envisages in the residential sector an increasing demand for caravans.
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  It is as well sometimes to look across the Atlantic, at developing trends in the United States of America. It is significant that 40 per cent. of the caravans being sold in the United States today are being sold to retired people. We cannot ignore what is going on in the United States. I fully realise that the climate in this country is, in various ways, different from that in the United States, but there is no doubt that demand is springing up among retired people for residential caravans.
  Our population is increasing at the rate of 225,000 persons per annum. If one takes into account that increase and estimates that 10 per cent. of those who will retire will wish to live in caravans, and if one estimates further that there will be two such elderly occupants per caravan, the cumulative increasing demand for caravans will be of the order of 10,000 per annum.
  The hon. Member for Anglesey said that younger people, in the main, occupied caravans. The bulge is going through the secondary schools now and will be reflected in a marriage bulge in the years 1968 to 1978. If we say that the marriage bulge will create a housing demand for 30,000 extra dwellings a year and we accept, again, that 10 per cent. of young married couples will want to live in caravans, that gives, for those young married couples, a supra-demand for 3,000 caravan homes per annum, giving a total additional demand of 13,000 caravans per annum.
  The hon. Member for Anglesey gave the figures for 1958. I can tell him that the production of caravans in 1959 was 40,000. If we take into account the supra-demand to which I have just drawn attention, we see readily that the demand for caravans is rising all the time and will continue to rise.
  I come now to the use of caravans for holidays. Sir Arton Wilson dealt very adequately with the residential section, but, in my view, the use of caravans for holidays will expand very much more rapidly. Of recent years, only about 40 per cent. of the people of Britain have had a holiday away from home. The trend is quite definitely towards a higher proportion of people taking holidays away from home and having longer holidays. How will they take those holidays? In my estimation,

  715
  there are but three ways—in a hotel or boarding house, in an organised holiday camp, or in a caravan.
  Without doubt, for the family man the caravan provides the cheapest way of having a family holiday. Moreover, though this may seem a comparatively small matter, most families have a family pet, a cat or a dog, perhaps. The family cannot take the pet to a hotel or boarding house. I do not think that pets are very welcome in holiday camps. On the other hand, if the family take their holiday in a caravan, they can take their pet with them and, indeed, the pet can enjoy the holiday, too. I do not make that as a very big point, but I believe that it has significance for many people. Of one thing I am absolutely certain. The workers will in increasing numbers take their holidays in caravans.
  I come now to the central problem to which hon. Members have referred already. Where are the caravans to be situated? If a liberal attitude is not adopted towards this siting of caravans in or near our beauty spots, what will happen? People who propose to take caravan holidays will be driven across the English Channel and either to hire or take their own caravan to the North coast of France. Already, that coastline is littered with caravans, but can we afford to lose a tremendous amount of foreign exchange by forcing people to go outside Britain for holidays whereas, by a more liberal approach from the planning authorities, they could take their holidays in Britain? The loss of foreign exchange, if sufficient caravan sites are not situated in Britain, is a serious consideration.
  I now turn to the trend of output of caravans. I have said that, in 1959, 40,000 caravans were constructed. My estimate, based on trade estimates, is that at least 50,000 will be constructed in 1960. The Financial Times this week stated that at the recent convention of the National Caravan Council, at Folkestone, an economist said that in 1975, if the present trend continued, the national output of caravans would be 200,000 per annum. In other words, by 1975 we shall have as many caravans produced per annum as there are in Britain today. I do not say that that forecast will come
  716
  true, but I do say that the increase in the number of caravans will be very substantial.
  If I have carried hon. Members with me as far as this, the one conclusion must be that this increase in caravanning will create an immense demand for land. Key money has been mentioned, because of the shortage of sites. The only way of relieving the pressure at present is a considerable immediate release of land. I estimate the figure required at about 3,000 to 5,000 acres. In addition, if my figures about the output of caravans are accepted and those caravans are to be sited in Britain, there will be a cumulative demand for land of 3,000 acres per annum. I arrive at that figure simply by taking the average density of 20 caravans to the acre and an output of 60,000. This is a very considerable demand for land.
  Sir Arton Wilson has said that caravans are here to stay. I accept that. I believe that holiday caravanning will increase in future. Indeed, I will go further and say that it might well be a very good thing for the remote parts of Britain, not forgetting the special importance of this matter to Wales. I am happy that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Welsh Affairs is on the Front Bench.
  During the Christmas Recess, I had the privilege of being entertained by the local secretary of the National Caravan Council, in Gwynedd, in North Wales. He showed me large and small sites in national parks and along the coastline of Caernarvonshire. The thing that impressed me was the value of a "good crop of caravans" for land owners and workers. Anyone who knows that part will realise that farming is marginal. Caravanning could well be a great help to the economic situation of those remote parts.
  Let me give a concrete example. Some people may say that holiday caravanning gives employment only during the holiday season. On a large site for nearly 400 caravans which I saw, 14 persons were employed the whole year round. They were employed not only on the maintenance of the site, but on the maintenance of the caravans, of the boats and on work concerning the various ancillary industries which go with a large caravan site. If we want to keep employment in some of the remote parts, the caravan industry is the right vehicle to

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  bring that economic prosperity. It ha been estimated that, in Devonshire, each caravanner leaves approximately £9 a week in the area in which he stays. Therefore, each visitor who goes to the remote parts not only pays for his caravan, but leaves a great deal of cash behind in the local stores, and helps other local industries.
  I do not think that it should be supposed that, necessarily, caravans need be situated on good agricultural land. They can be situated on land which is unsuitable for permanent dwellings and relatively unsuitable for farming. Stretches of the countryside could be used for caravans which otherwise would be of very little economic value to the community in general.
  Another aspect which was pointed out to me by the local secretary of the National Caravan Council was that often there are old country mansions, with delightful trees in the grounds surrounding them and among which caravans could be situated. Again, with a liberal outlook on the part of planning authorities a greater number of caravans could be brought to certain parts.
  I now turn to certain central features of the Bill. I welcome the fact that the site licence will be the controlling factor. I equally welcome Clause 4, which states that
  "a site licence shall not be issued for a limited period only".
  That is exactly the provision which the industry requires. It will give security of tenure and will enable site operators to attain vastly improved standards.
  There is a small side issue on which I should like my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to comment. Under Clause 2 (2, b) it appears that local authorities do not require a site licence, but, later, the Bill lays down that everyone else who has a site operator's licence must display it on the site. I think it reasonable and sensible that local authorities should be put in the same position. There are good local authorities and it may be that there are authorities which are not so good, but surely it is reasonable to expect that every site operator, whether a local authority or a private individual, should display the licence in a prominent place.
  Clause 2 (2, f) particularly refers to the position of touring caravanners.
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  Here, on first reading the Bill, my marginal note was not very polite. I noted that this provision was unenforceable and unworkable. As vice-president of the Rural District Councils' Association, I had a letter recommending that this provision should be omitted. I have had a communication from the National Caravan Council and Mr. Whiteman, editor of the Caravan, lodging protests against this provision.
  Subsection (2, f) provides a limitation to three caravans staying in any one place for 28 days. I do not think that anyone would object to that as far as it goes, but it goes further and lays down that caravans can be situated only in a rural district. Few people, when touring Britain, know when they are moving out of a rural district into an urban district or even into a county borough. For instance, the County Borough of Sheffield stretches right up on to the moors. Unless we have signs on every road to indicate when we leave an urban district and go into a rural district and even every field marked, this provision will be entirely unenforceable. My views are supported by the Rural District Councils' Association. I feel that a better way must be found to cope with the itinerant caravanner.
  In Clause 4 the local authorities, I believe, have been given all the control which they require, and it gives them a very firm base on which to work. They can control the number of caravans and they can control a mixed site of tents, caravans and trailer tents. I know that in a mixed site of tents and caravans the local authorities can control the tents, but they are given no power to control a tented site.
  Last December, I visited the Camping and Outdoor Exhibition and saw the enormous increase in the popularity of frame tents. A frame tent is a tent which can virtualy be made into a portable room. It is supported on a tubular frame. It is almost a light caravan. I am surprised that my right hon. Friend did not include in the Bill a provision for the control of sites which are entirely given up to framed or other tents. In the Bill, the tents on a mixed site of tents and caravans can be controlled.
  Clause 4 also deals with landscaping, which is immensely important. It can mean the difference between the success

  719
  and failure of a caravan site in a rural surrounding. The Clause also deals with fire precaution. I have seen a number of caravan sites at which I am surprised that we have not had conflagrations in the past. The Clause also deals with sanitary facilities, and I hope that it will cope with the problem of the dirty ditches which exist at present and into which the washing water from the caravans is tipped.
  Clause 4 (2, b) gives the local authority power to control the size of caravans —and the material used in construction. Frankly, I do not regard this as at all satisfactory. I should consider it satisfactory if my right hon. Friend retained the power to make an Order governing the size and the material used in the construction of caravans, but if we allow local authorities to have control over these factors it will lead to different standards in different parts of the country. A manufacturer will manufacture a caravan for certain standards upon which a local authority insists in, say, Devonshire. The caravan is supposed to be an itinerant van. Admittedly, not many caravans are itinerant vans, but they are supposed to be itinerant vans. If that caravan is moved to the district of a local authority in North Wales, it may be found that the local authority there insists on entirely different standards of size and materials.
  Dr. Stross: Does the hon. Member agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes), who said that if the Minister offered us a national standard, as he does for different types of housing, we should welcome it?
  Mr. Temple: Yes. I listened to both the hon. Member for Anglesey and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central with great attention, and I thought that they were slightly confused on this point. I thought that the hon. Member for Anglesey referred to national site standards—in other words, standards for site layout.
  Mr. C. Hughes Mr. C. Hughes indicated dissent.
  Mr. Temple: In that case, I go all the way with what the hon. Member said and reinforce it. In my view, we should have national standards for the constructional material used in caravans. It is
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  unreasonable to allow that restriction to be operated by local authorities in a different manner in different parts of the country. Nation-wide standards are highly desirable, because there is a considerable export trade in caravans.
  I am aware that I have spoken for perhaps an unreasonably long time. I know that a number of my hon. Friends wish to take part in this important debate. I should like to sum up by drawing attention to the words of Sir Arton Wilson, whose Report states, in paragraph 340:
  "Local authorities in general disapprove of caravan-living in principle."
  That statement is repeated throughout the Report. In other words, there is an in-built prejudice on the part of local authorities against caravans. I very much hope—and I am sure that my right hon. Friend shares my hope—that as a result of the emphasis in the Bill being laid upon restriction and control the local authorities will feel that they have a firm base from which to operate.
  Mr. A. E. Hunter: Some of these authorities are opposed to caravan sites because after a year or so on the site the caravan dwellers want to be placed on the council's housing list, which is already swollen. That is one objection.
  Mr. Temple: I accept that. I also accept, as, I hope, my right hon. Friend does, that this new caravan legislation is overdue. It is my hope that as a result of this new legislation local authorities will have all the control they desire to satisfy themselves as to the standards to be observed. Having achieved that control, it is my hope that they will adopt a liberal attitude towards planning permission, because I am sure that the caravan industry in Britain can and must expand.
  5.57 p.m.
  Mr. George Deer: I agree with a good deal of what was said by the hon. Member for the City of Chester (Mr. Temple) about standards. I welcome the Bill for, perhaps, another reason. I listened carefully to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross), who described the people who live in caravans as, generally, gipsies or tinkers. He did not got as far

  721
  as to say that they were vagabonds. Perhaps I am the only hon. Member to have taken part in the debate who has a caravan.
  Dr. Stross: I cannot allow my hon. Friend's comment to pass. I said nothing of the kind. I said that there had been a tradition among citizens in the old days to confuse the people who dwelt in these unconventional homes with tinkers and gipsies.
  Mr. Deer: I cheerfully accept the correction.
  We badly need legislation of this sort. Having acquired a caravan, I then had to find somewhere to put it. I was immediately faced with a number of factors for which I had not calculated. In one case it was said, "Unless you buy the caravan from us you cannot put it on our site." The question of key money, which has been delicately mentioned, arose in another instance. Finally, when I went on to a first-class site, which is very well managed, which is picturesque and at the foot of the Sussex Downs, I found that we had all the amenities we needed. I was very glad to find that I had arrived in a community which had all the amenities which my hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes) wants to see.
  I use the caravan only as a temporary retreat, for I have still to live in London to be in contact with the House. But I make no apology for saying that when my constituency obligations will allow and when Parliamentary time permits, I drive off to this rural retreat and get away from the telephone for as long as I can. That is one advantage of living in a caravan. I have electricity and Calor gas, but, thank goodness, I have no telephone.
  I welcome what the Minister said about more security of tenure being given to these people, who are doing a good job. We cannot expect them to lay out quite a lot of money on all sorts of amenities and sanitary necessities and on the provision of roads, trees and shrubs if there is a possibility that within a year or so they will receive notice that their licence has been terminated or that they have to quit. In the very nature of things, we must give security of tenure to these people.
  We cannot describe caravanners as all of one type. My caravan is on a mixed
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  site, half of which is residential and the other half devoted to holiday-makers. The half which is residential is occupied probably to half its extent by old-age pensioners. The old-age pensioner finds it the easiest and cheapest way of escaping from the ravages of the Rent Act. He lives in his own caravan where there is no staircase and where his wife finds the housework is comparatively easy. Where there are amenities of the kind I have mentioned, it is an advantage to old people to settle down there.
  Incidentally, one finds a community spirit on these sites which is often absent in a friendless place like London where one can live ten years and never know one's neighbour. Even romance comes into it. To my knowledge, one lonely old man and a lonely old woman, instead of occupying two, are now sharing one caravan in domestic bliss. That is all to the good. The younger people still have to use these sites when their jobs are such that they cannot find immediately housing near to their work.
  This is the picture that I see of the good site which needs all the protection that the Ministry and the local authority can give it. But I have seen sites which are simply ghastly. I have seen many so-called caravans that look like superannuated horse boxes on wheels with a couple of bunks. These are described as homes for people to live in. I have known disused buses being used as caravans which by no stretch of the imagination could be assumed to be fit for people to live in.
  On the other hand, I am pretty sure that we must cater for the decent caravan site. We must see that local authorities have power to extend them where necessary. If we do that, we shall be able to tackle much more freely—it may be from the point of view of the health Department, or on the basis of overcrowding— the eyesores that are called caravan sites but which are merely slum dwellings on wheels.
  Another point, and one which the Minister mentioned, is the question of exemption from the provisions of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman said that travelling showmen would be exempt, but my friends in the showmen's world inform me that they want a much better Clause to maintain those freedoms which they already enjoy because of the

  723
  peculiarity of their business. The bulk of travelling showmen today live in high-class, expensive types of caravans and they travel from town to town. Under the existing law they are exempt from a number of restrictions which normally one might expect to apply under present Acts and Regulations, but it is when they come to winter quarters that they will be in difficulties in future.
  The showmen have specifically raised the point with me that when the showman has finished his trips to the fairgrounds he wants to find somewhere where he can not only place his caravan but a great deal of his material so that he can refurbish and renovate it for the coming season. I cannot find anything in the Bill that would allow him to do that kind of job which he has traditionally done.
  I am pretty sure that we can find a form of words to help these people. They are estimable citizens. I do not know of any section of the community that has done more for charity than the Showmen's Guild. I remember that when I was mayor of a city I had the privilege of having handed over to me a hospital bed endowed by the Showmen's Guild. The guild does this kind of thing with great regularity. I hope, therefore, that this legislation will not leave these decent, dependable people high and dry—all right for their tour in the summer but out in the cold when it comes to finding winter quarters. I am sure that we can find words to insert in the Bill to give them the additional help which they want.
  I am very pleased that we have had the opportunity today of reviewing these questions which arise out of the excellent Arton Wilson Report on the subject. The Bill goes a long way towards securing control, and, by control, placing all these matters on a proper basis. I welcome the Bill.
  6.6 p.m.
  Mr. Ronald Bell: There can certainly be very little party content in the Bill, because I have agreed with all the speeches that I have heard from the other side of the House and particularly with the speeches of the hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes) and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross). The
  724
  hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Deer) declared his special interest. I do not know whether he is still a Whip, but I can understand his anxiety in his caravan to get away from the party line.
  I also welcome the Bill. I have a particular interest in it because in my constituency there is a greater concentration of residential caravans than in any other area, except the constituency of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) who, I believe, is at the moment in Africa. This has been a great problem and there is no doubt that bad feeling has developed between caravan residents, caravan site operators and local authorities. The Bill is overdue because it is a bad thing for this ill-feeling to develop and govern relations between various elements of the population.
  Sir Arton Wilson performed a signal service in clarifying the attitude of hostility which has existed in some quarters towards people who live in caravans, and we should try to get away from that. If people want to live in a caravan for preference, we should try to make it possible inside our planning law for them to do so. If people find themselves driven to occupying caravans because although they want to live in a house they cannot, again as far as possible we should enable them to do so.
  I see this problem as basically one of town and country planning. Certainly that is what it is in my area. It is a very difficult problem. My hon. Friend the Member for the City of Chester (Mr. Temple) spoke about holiday caravans. Other parts of the country have their own special problems, but in my area, and, I have no doubt, in Chertsey, the problem is basically one of town and country planning.
  As a matter of national policy we have decided to set up the green belt and to restrict development in all its aspects. industrial and residential, so that the green belt shall remain round the Metropolitan area. As I said in a debate a few months ago on the general subject of town and country planning, this poses great problems. First of all, we have industry wanting to expand in these areas. We try to check that expansion and hon. Members on both sides of the House have been pressing the Government to check it as emphatically as they

  725
  can by the refusal of industrial development certificates and by attracting industry to other parts of the country.
  Then we have also the kind of development in the caravan sites involving people who live on land which is green belt and who say, "Now that we have found jobs in the area, what is going to happen to us?" It is a real problem. The hon. Member for Feltham (Mr. Hunter) interjected just now with another very difficult aspect of the matter. A young couple may go to live in a caravan because they have nowhere else to go. Then a family arrives and they soon become a top priority case for rehousing because there are already two babies and a third is coming. It is impossible that young couple plus three babies should continue to live in a caravan, so they have to be given priority over the people on the housing list. I have often had these cases myself.
  My right hon. Friend is tackling this problem in the only possible way, and that is by the procedure under Clause 16. I see no other solution of the problem. I think that this procedure will solve it, but I must utter one word of warning. There is no doubt that in many of these cases the interests of the site operators and of the caravan residents are opposed to each other, though they do not realise it at the moment.
  I have found considerable difficulty in getting them to realise this. The tapering policy under Clause 16 will impose no practical hardship on the caravan resident, but, in the end, it will put the site operator out of business. This is a serious matter for him. Where there are caravans in the green belt we must either say, "We will abandon that piece of green belt and more houses can be built on it in which to put these people" or, "We will operate Clause 16 policy". In other words, we will not put anyone off, but as each individual caravan site becomes vacant it must not be replenished. From the point of view of the caravan resident that is a humane method of operating because it waits until he goes, but, of course, with a natural wastage of 10 per cent. per annum it will not meet with an enthusiastic reception from the site operator. However, I think that that is the right policy.
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  I was a little puzzled when the Minister, in replying to an interjection, said that the site licence conditions under Clause 4 would deal with such matters as the number of caravans. As I understand the Bill, there is a division between the planning considerations which will be dealt with by the planning authority, which is essentially the county council, and what used to be the public health considerations, which will be dealt with by what the Bill calls the local authority, which means rural district councils, and so on.
  Density has always been a planning consideration. If my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will look at Clause 4 (2), paragraphs (a) to (f), he will see that the number of caravans is nowhere mentioned. Although I appreciate that those are listed without prejudice to the generality of the conditions which may be imposed, I would have thought that the natural construction of the Clause is that numbers are not an apt matter for the site licence. Indeed, I hope that they are not, because density is purely planning and it is not really a suitable matter on which to appeal to the magistrates under Clause 6. In my submission, it is important that planning matters should be left on one side, to go through the channel up to the Minister, and that the licence should be confined to the public health matters.
  That will apply also in another sense under Clause 16. I find that Clause anomalous, in that it deals with the tapering policy by saying that the site licence may contain conditions against vacancies being filled. Surely that, again, should go in the planning permission and not be a matter for an appeal to the magistrates, because an appeal against Clause 16 will, by virtue of Clause 6, go to the magistrates, not to the Minister of Town and Country Planning.
  What also will be the position where, as is frequently the case, an existing planning permission is based upon the principle of natural wastage? It is a planning permission for a certain number of caravans getting less by 10 per cent. each year. What kind of site licence will be given? Frankly, I find that puzzling.
  To some extent these are matters which can be dealt with during the Committee

  727
  stage, but they are of a rather general character and affect the structure of the Bill, so I hope that we may be given some guidance upon them today. More generally, I am very glad to see the enforcement provisions. It has been a great game in the past, and I think that the Minister in his introductory speech under-stated the opportunities for delay allowed by the planning law. However, my right hon. Friend probably wanted to be moderate.
  I am particularly delighted to see— and I say this with the utmost respect for them—that our petty and quarter sessions go out of the planning appeal procedure. I have always thought them extremely inappropriate courts for this highly complex and almost entirely civil litigation. Sometimes one can get an excellent tribunal, but at other times one can be very unlucky in a matter of planning law.
  I see that Section 33 of the Town and Country Planning Act is mentioned in Part II of the Bill in an inferential way. That is the Section which allows the planning authority to object to the state in which a piece of open land is being kept, and to require it to be cleared. At the moment there is considerable doubt whether that allows a planning authority to stop an existing use of land, for which no planning permission is needed, without paying compensation. I should have thought that this Bill provided the opportunity for clarifying that and making sure that this anomaly did not persist.
  In general, I regard the Bill as a most valuable step forward in planning law generally and in respect of the caravan community. I represent a large number of caravan dwellers. In fact, in the southern part of my constituency one person in eighteen lives in a caravan. It is an unhappy state of affairs when bad feeling exists between the local authorities and the operators and the people on the sites. It is not a nice atmosphere to live in. I am anxious to see it go and be replaced by a state of certainty in which everybody knows where he is. It may not be exactly where he wanted to be, but at least the law will be clarified and certain.
  I share the belief expressed by many hon. Members that strengthening the
  728
  hands of the local authorities in this way is the best method of removing their distrust and, if there has been any, their hostility, and opening the way for a better development of the caravan situation. I nevertheless hope that in everything that takes place under this Bill when it becomes an Act, the underlying policy of the green belt will not be destroyed. That is basic for all the areas around London. We want to be fair to our fellow countrymen and give them freedoms and liberties in which people in a free country should engage, but if they want to five in South-East England, as most of us do—[Interruption.] Members who come from further afield nevertheless have to have a pied-à-terre in South-East England, so that all of us, in one sense, have to live in the area.
  It is an artificial operation. We cannot do it in a completely libertarian, laisser faire way. It is too crowded and we must accept discipline in that part of the country which would be quite unreasonable in sparser areas. As one Member representing a bit of green belt —the piece which is perhaps under the greatest pressure of all—I add that note of warning.
  6.21 p.m.
  Mr. Mor Davies: I was glad to hear the hon. Member for the City of Chester (Mr. Temple) making it quite clear that Wales was an important part of Britain—as a Welsh Member I am proud that it is so. I join with every other Member who has spoken so far in welcoming the Bill. As the Minister said, it seeks to protect the public interest and, indeed, is a caravan charter. That may be a bold claim for the Bill at this stage, but I hope that after we have been through Committee with it we shall be able to make it so.
  I also join my hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes) in paying a compliment to those concerned with the preparation of the social survey in connection with residential caravan sites. They have earned the thanks accorded to them on page 3 of the Arton Wilson Report. There was a time when the word "caravan" signified only holidays and leisure, but today it also means a permanent home to many people. The Minister also recognised that in his remarks.

  729
  When I think of caravans and leisure I recall the words of the Welsh poet, W. H. Davies, who was better known as the "tramp poet." He said:
  "What is this life, if, full of care,
  We have no time to stand and stare."
  He ends his poem with the words:
  "A poor life this if, full of care,
  We have no time to stand and stare."
  I am not sure whether he wrote that poem in a caravan, but I am sure that by today there are millions of people throughout the country who will say with emphasis that it will be a poor life if, full of care, they cannot enjoy life in a caravan, either as a home or on holiday.
  The Bill is realistic in so far as it recognises a very great social problem in our midst. But caravanning is not only a social problem; it is now big business. That is not my description, for the Arton Wilson Report, on page 5, makes it quite clear and uses that term. This is why the Bill is very important. The figures highlight the importance of this claim. In 1938, the output of all kinds of caravans was 1,000. Ten years later the figure was 3,600. In 1958, the year to which the Arton Wilson Report refers, the figure is quoted as 36,500, with 3,500 for export. The total retail value amounted to approximately £14,600,000. We have also heard in the debate that by 1975 it is estimated that the output of all kinds of caravans will reach 200,000.
  It is also estimated that in 1958 the number of caravans of all kinds in use in this country was approximately 180,000. It is very interesting to see that these figures, when split up, showed that 60,000 caravans were for residence, 30,000 were for touring and other purposes like exhibitions, and that the remarkable figure of 90,000 caravans were used for static holidays and weekend accommodation.
  Dealing with residential caravans, the Social Survey, Table 32, reveals that only 1 per cent. are found in Wales, but we are, nevertheless, very much concerned in Wales, because it is a land of great natural beauty. Caravans are used there for holiday and week-end purposes. I must confess at once that, in the words of that well-known song,
  "… my caravan has rested …"
  730
  amidst the beauty of my own constituency. The Arton Wilson Report claims that in 1958 more than 3 million people spent their holidays in caravans. With this growth in caravan holidays another major problem has appeared, and that is the challenge to the preservation of green belts and areas of natural beauty.
  Within my constituency there is the Gower Peninsula, which was the first area in the country to be designated as an area of outstanding beauty following the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act, 1949. The caravan problem is causing grave concern and discussion in the area at present. I therefore particularly welcome Clause 18. which gives local authorities new powers in this matter. I have heard hon. Members say in this debate that local authorities in general disapprove of caravans as dwellings. I would emphasise, however, another phrase which we find in the Arton Wilson Report, on page 82:
  "But they believe it to be essential, in any event, that their powers of control and enforcement both in the public health and the planning field should be strengthened very considerably—and in such a way as to help to deal effectively with holiday caravans also."
  I hope that these powers, wisely used, will help to reconcile the demand for caravan holidays with the protection and preservation of green belts and areas of natural beauty.
  6.30 p.m.
  Mr. Basil de Ferranti: I cannot produce a Lancashire poet to compete with the admirable quotation produced by the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. I. Davies). Nor can I claim the particular interest of the hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Deer), who is himself the owner of a caravan. But like my hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell), I can claim a considerable constituency interest.
  My first introduction to my constituency was a long and impassioned statement by a very prominent constituent of mine about the iniquities of an hon. Member who had built a caravan site next door to his own property on the shores of Lake Windermere. I cannot express strongly enough the extraordinary bad feeling which has been caused in my constituency, and in many other constituencies, I am sure, by the

  731
  most unsatisfactory present state of the law.
  I am very glad that my right hon. Friend stated that in his opinion the caravan is here to stay. I must join with every hon. Member in congratulating my right hon. Friend on bringing in this very much needed Bill, which, we will all agree, is somewhat overdue. My right hon. Friend is to be congratulated on bringing it forward so soon after the admirable Report of Sir Arton Wilson.
  My constituency is typical of several others in that it has a residential as well as a holiday caravan problem. Some of us were rather concerned when the terms of reference of Sir Arton Wilson's Committee were first announced, for we thought that ensuing legislation would not deal with the holiday caravan problem. My constituents believe that to be a vital part of the whole problem. In some ways, it is a pity that the Bill does not deal with the problem of tented sites, except where Part II of the Bill or the Public Health Acts are applicable. I should not like to add any further burdens to those of my right hon. Friend, but that is a problem, particularly in the Lake District, and it can give rise to unfortunate situations from the health and amenity points of view.
  The Bill will be particularly helpful in places like the Lake District, where there are many existing use sites. Those sites, which were established before the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, have defied control up to now and we have heard from several hon. Members the sort of antics which people can get up to in an effort to avoid control. What is so unfortunate is that so many of those sites are in the very beautiful parts of the country mentioned in the admirable maiden speech of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington, South (Mr. Roots). My hon. and learned Friend said that in his view it was essential that the number of sites in beautiful parts of the country should be limited as far as possible. However, I think that the other side of the case ought, in fairness, to be put.
  We want people to spend their holidays in the Lake District and to spend their money there. Undoubtedly, if sites are established under proper control, they do not impair the beauty of the country-
  732
  side. We want to see as many of these sites as possible, provided that they are properly controlled and laid out. As a result of the Bill, that should be possible.
  It should be possible at least to strike a fair compromise and for it to be seen that a fair compromise has been struck —which is so important—between cara-vanners, on the one hand, and residents and visitors, on the other, who are concerned with what has been called the preservation of the visual amenities of the area. I hope that my right hon. Friend will not think it impertinent of me to say that the Ministry seems to have a tendency to use phrases such as "preservation of visual amenities". I ask him to find a literary expert to produce a more elegant phrase. That sort of phrase makes one think that anyone who could so misuse English as to adopt the phrase "visual amenity" could not possibly have the slightest idea of what a beautiful part of the countryside was.
  May I put in a plea that the point of view of the parish council should be considered? I do not think that it is possible to legislate for that, but I hope that the point of view of parish councils will be carefully considered by local authorities when licences are being issued. Even the position of one caravan in one small field in one small village—like Sawtry, where Beatrix Potter came from—can be of immense importance to the 100 or so residents of the area. Often, when the unfortunate Member of Parliament goes there, he can find himself in the middle of a Clochemerle type of battle over the site of one caravan.
  I ask the Minister, when he is considering the standard conditions—and I hope that they will be standard—to remember two factors. One has been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for the City of Chester (Mr. Temple)—the difficulty which manufacturers will have if there is a considerable variation in the sort of conditions laid down. I am myself a manufacturer and I know that I can produce goods with much more efficiency if there is a measure of standardisation, and I know what appalling trouble is caused by what we call the "one offs". It would be very unfortunate if, as a result of the conditions laid down, there were a series of "one offs" by local authorities with peculiar ideas.

  733
  The other may seem a small matter, although it is not—the question of the colour of caravans. Particularly in the Lake District, a sudden splash of mauve, for instance, could create a most discordant note in a part of the country, which, as everybody knows, is very attractive. I imagine that it would be possible for recommendations about colour to be made to ensure that the problem does not arise too often. I believe that a considerable amount of thought has been put into the best pattern of colour on a caravan site and that the proposals which resulted were that rather than have a uniform colour, which could be quite unpleasant as well, one should try to achieve a series of blending colours among the different caravans on the site, but to try to avoid having two mauve caravans next door to each other, if one has to have mauve.
  All hon. Members on this side of the House will have thought very seriously about the compulsory powers provided in Clause 18. The purpose of those compulsory powers is clear and it is clear to me that they are very necessary, but I should not like them to be taken as a general blessing for local authorities to go into the caravan site operating business, which, as we have heard from hon. Members opposite, can be very profitable.
  Despite what my right hon. Friend has said about the reluctance shown by local authorities to use their compulsory powers to go into the business, I am afraid that one or two—and one or two would be one or two too many—local authorities might decide to go into that business, which is something very much better left to private enterprise. There should be no controversy between the two sides of the House this week, because, although the caravan site business is important, it cannot exactly be described as one of the "commanding heights" of the economy. I think that hon. Members opposite will prefer the much more effective and flexible type of operation which one gets from private enterprise to the rather difficult and clumsy operation which one is inclined to get with municipal trading.
  One of the objects of municipal trading by those municipalities which now have caravan sites has been simply to bring some measure of control into the chaotic situation which has existed
  734
  and which this admirable Bill will put right. I think that it can be left to private enterprise to do the job as best it can.
  There seem to be one or two small points which are not covered by the Bill. One is the case of the unsightly parking of caravans in the forecourt of the caravan owner's house, or in front of the caravanner's house, in front of the building line. One sees a number of instances of that and I am sure that it spoils the appearance of many streets which have been attractively laid out on some of the magnificent council estates which have been built in various parts of the country.
  I think that this situation arises because of the definition in the Bill of a caravan site as it appears in Clause 1 (4):
  "… 'caravan site' means land on which a caravan is stationed for the purpose of human habitation …"
  If a caravan is simply parked in front of someone's house, one cannot say that it is there for the purpose of human habitation, and, therefore, such a case is not covered by the Bill. It may be possible in Committee to give some consideration to finding a way around this problem.
  Earlier in the debate, there was much comment about the effect of Clause 3 and the question of a site licence being issued as a right if planning permission had already been obtained. My own local authority is rather concerned that it may be forced to give a site licence for a site which had planning permission, but which, in its view, did not fulfil health requirements. This matter has been covered by various speakers, but it would be desirable if the wording of Clause 3 could be altered in such a way as to make this clearer to people when they first look through the Bill.
  I conclude by saying to the Minister that I hope that his satisfaction with the Bill—and I think that he has every cause for satisfaction—will not deter him from the basic problem of building the necessary diversified houses which are required to solve the hard core of the residential problem. Let us have some of the specialised types of houses particularly suited to people who tend to use the specialised facilities which a caravan can offer. Let us see whether

  735
  the 5,000 acres of land mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for the City of Chester can be reduced as far as possible by building houses in suitable circumstances instead of using the land for an unnecessarily largely increased number of caravans.
  6.43 p.m.
  Mr. A. J. Irvine: I agree very largely with the broad approach of the hon. Member for More-cambe and Lonsdale (Mr. de Ferranti) to the problems referred to in the Bill. I endorse his delicately expressed recommendation to the Department about the language to be used. The only doubt that I felt was the inconsistency between his criticism of the Department's use of language and his readiness to trust its determination on matters affecting colour schemes for caravans.
  I think that both sides of the House will agree that it is absolutely necessary for an effective town and country planning system that there should be a reliable and sensible enforcement procedure available. It must be efficient in its character, it must act fairly and not arbitrarily, and, at the same time as it acts fairly, it must act firmly. There can be very little doubt that the enforcement procedure provided by Sections 23 and 24 of the 1947 Act has revealed a great many defects and faults.
  For a long time many hon. Members have desired an improvement in the enforcement procedure, and I have been told from time to time that it was the intention of the Government to deal with it. I myself wanted to take it up, but I was advised from many quarters, including the Ministry, that the matter was too complex to be appropriate for treatment in a Private Member's Bill. Now that an endeavour is being made to put right, once and for all, the defects which exist in the enforcement provisions of the law, one looks to see what is proposed with a good deal of anxiety, because one recognises the importance of it.
  I get the impression that Part II of the Bill clears a good many of the difficulties out of the way, but not, I think, all of them. In a desire to be helpful in this matter, I would draw attention to the following points. First, the appeal to the Minister under Clause 26 (1, a) on
  736
  the question of whether permission ought to be granted, may occur very soon after the Minister has, in another context, already determined just that question. The House will consider what may occur. We may have somebody who proposes to develop land applying for permission to do so and being refused permission by the local planning authority. He then appeals to the Minister. If the Minister upholds the refusal of the local planning authority to permit the development and the party applying continues none the less with the development or continues with the contravening use, an enforcement notice may be very quickly served. Then, as I understand it, under the provisions of this Bill there may be an appeal to the Minister upon the issue whether permission ought to have been granted.
  This is not a far-fetched case but one which may easily occur. That will be an issue on which the Minister will already have come to a decision and considered the evidence a very short time before. That seems a rather inexpert method of dealing with the matter, and one which I should have thought deserved consideration. If the view is taken that the service of an enforcement notice should revive the initial question whether a particular development should be permitted or not, should not the matter be referred to some other tribunal that the Minister who has recently dealt with it—the Lands Tribunal, perhaps, or some other appropriate determining authority?
  The second point to which I wish to draw attention is this. In moving the Bill, the right hon. Gentleman referred to the desirability of getting rid of the confusion and difficulty attending the dual processes that can be going on at the same time under the 1947 Act. As he will readily appreciate, not all of those difficulties are cleared away by this Bill. For example, the question of what points can be referred to by the defence in proceedings taken under Section 24 of the 1947 Act may continue to cause difficulty.
  The names of Perrins v. Perrins, Mead and the Chelmsford R.D.C., Francis v. Yiewsley come to mind. One has almost an affection for their very sound, but they have represented a great deal of difficulty and complexity in this branch of the law. They deal with difficulties

  737
  which I do not think are entirely cleared away. I can well see, after this Bill has become law, the question arising all over again of whether or not it will be open, in certain cases and in certain circumstances, for the defence in proceedings under Section 24 to call in aid points which could have been taken before the Minister and dealt with by him on appeal against the enforcement notice. I draw attention to that as something with which this part of the Bill does not appear to deal. On first reading the Bill I hoped that the proviso to Clause 26 (8) dealt with it, but, on further inquiry—I hope it was correct inquiry—I find that that is not so.
  Thirdly, a most promising loophole for evasion is offered by the grant of permission for certain uses of land for a period of 28 days in the year under the General Development Order. That type of evasion is peculiarly available to a caravan, or any similar mobile place of residence. A right to use land as a caravan site can, so to speak, be kept alive by putting the caravan on a piece of land for any 28 days in the year, no matter how widely separated from each other those 28 days may be. The planning authority can be rendered powerless.
  It may well be that that matter is best dealt with administratively, as can be done by the right hon. Gentleman either under the existing General Development Order or by an amendment to the Order. It is worth noting that the Bill does nothing about that. Dealing as it does with caravans, which, as I say, can most easily take advantage of this loophole in the existing law, no specific mention of that problem is made, and it might be thought that that omission should be corrected.
  On the wider issue, I intervened during the right hon. Gentleman's speech to ask him whether the House could be satisfied that the provisions of Part I did not reflect the anxieties which he felt about the effectiveness of Part II and of the enforcement provisions generally. He gave me a firm assurance in that respect, as to his own view, and I entirely accept that. But I would not be so persuaded if I were in his shoes. I cannot but feel that all these public health questions concerning density, cleanliness, tidiness of the site, sanitation and the rest are matters which can properly and most
  738
  reasonably be made the subject of conditions attached to planning permission In practice, they could readily be made almost in standard form.
  That being so, if the Government are absolutely content with their enforcement provisions I cannot see why it should be necessary to impose this elaborate licensing system. Nobody wants licensing for its own sake. It involves considerable administrative encumbrance; it involves expense, and it is restrictive in character. If it could be displaced or avoided by an effective enforcement mechanism I should have thought that that would be the better solution.
  I can be persuaded fairly easily that in certain parts of the country where there is a special caravan problem, such as round London and on the coast, it may be desirable to have this licensing system, but I should have thought that consideration could usefully be given to the question whether it is desirable to impose this system universally. The hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) drew attention to the fact that the problem in the neighbourhood of London is much more difficult and intense than it is in more sparsely populated parts of the country. Rather than impose a universal licensing system, I should have thought that there was much to be said for having a system which, perhaps by Order of the Minister, could be extended from time to time, but which, in the first place, was confined to those parts of the country where the problem is most intense.
  When a licensing system of this kind is introduced one is tempted to ask why caravans should be singled out. Why not tents? Why not have a licensing system to control the use of land for car parks, or for the display of motor cars? I should have thought that the imposition of a universal licensing system for the present purpose was taking too long a stride too quickly.
  An example of the extent to which a licensing system may involve an undesirable encroachment upon liberty is provided by the case of the showmen, referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes). Hon. Members on both sides of the House have a great regard for their long tradition of maintaining orderliness and good conditions in their caravan sites, but it

  739
  is clear that their exemption from licensing requirements, by Clause 2 (2, e), does not give them anything like the amount of protection that I would expect hon. Members generally to consider advisable. The protection provided by the Bill applies only where they are travelling for the purpose of their business.
  These people have traditionally used caravan sites for their winter quarters, where they stay between seasons for fairly long periods. The use of a caravan site in that fashion would not seem to come within the terms of the exemption. I agree that that point can be considered in Committee, but it has a certain merit of its own—a more important merit, for my present purposes. It illustrates the way in which the imposition of a universal licensing system can, quite unexpectedly, in adventitious and unforeseen circumstances, encroach upon people's liberties. The House may well want to consider that aspect.
  This strikes me as a Bill for which a strong case can be made in many respects and which, in its enforcement provisions, does something to clear up the muddle existing under the present law. It is also, however, a Bill which, in certain respects, may take effect oppressively, and perhaps extends its provisions over too wide a field. In other words, it is a Bill in which one can hope for important improvements in Committee.
  7.0 p.m.
  Mr. W. R. van Straubenzee: The hon. and learned Member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. A. J. Irvine) devoted a large part of his speech to an interesting exposition of Part II of the Bill. So much has been said about caravans that we might tend to forget Part II. The hon. and learned Gentleman raised an interesting argument about Part I relative to licences. He conceded that in and around Greater London there might be what was called a caravan problem, and it is because I represent a constituency with such a problem that I have intervened in the debate.
  The Arton Wilson Report says that the Royal County of Berkshire, part of which I represent, has 3,900 caravans, and that 8·3 per 1,000 of the population of Berkshire live in those caravans. That
  740
  is the highest figure quoted in the Report. I shall try to show later that the proposals contained in the Bill will be of immense help to counties such as mine.
  Sincere tributes have been paid to Sir Arton Wilson for his Report. I should like to express my regret—and I suspect that I am speaking on behalf of right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House—at the absence because of public business of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald), in whose constituency a serious problem also arises and who has been closely associated with this legislation.
  It was interesting to discover how hard Sir Arton Wilson found it to pinpoint with any accuracy the size of the problem. He quoted the 1951 census figure of 30,000. He quoted the National Carvan Council's figure, given in 1958, of 90,000 and eventually came to a figure roughly half-way between the two; and, as has been said, the problem is much more extensive than the country appreciates. I have mentioned my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey and it is worth recording that in the Chertsey Urban District Council area the number of people living in caravans is 41 per 1,000 of the population, which is a very high figure.
  One hon. Gentleman opposite reminded us that when we talk about caravan dwellers we are not dealing with a group of disreputable people. Also, that we are not dealing with the poorest section of the population. It is a popular misconception that people live in caravans only because they can afford nothing else. That does not correspond with the facts. Some people do live in caravans for purely financial reasons, but to regard the entire caravan population as being just above the breadline is wholly to misunderstand the problem.
  Sir Arton Wilson reminds us that a quarter of the caravans are occupied by young married couples who set up their first home in a caravan. I was fascinated by the reminiscences of the hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Deer) about what went on on a caravan site. I have never been a caravanner. That is partly because I think that a wife is an essential prerequisite for successful caravanning, because one does not get meals in caravans. I have now learnt how one old man

  741
  found an old woman, and I must look again at the attractions of caravanning.
  The figures show that one quarter of our young marrieds, one-fifth of young marrieds with a family, and another one-fifth of transferred workers live in caravans because of the problem of housing. Transferred workers are the people who must live in caravans because they are ineligible to be put on a local housing list. The elderly make up about one-tenth of the caravan population, and Sir Arton Wilson concluded that about 5 per cent. to 10 per cent. of the caravan population is made up of people who live in caravans because they like it and for no other reason.
  I have had that figure questioned. I that that my right hon. Friend the Minister may know of a large beautifully laid out site at Warfield Park, in my constituency. The proprietor of that site assures me that 95 per cent. of his tenants live there because they like living in caravans. He tells me that a number of people on his site at one time lived in houses costing £5,000 to £6,000. They are elderly people whose families have grown up, and they welcome the chance of living in a small and permanent place without having to do too much housework. Nevertheless, taking the country as a whole, about 80 per cent. of the caravanners are, as it were, in transit. They are not permanent dwellers.
  As hon. Members know, I am a newcomer to this House but if all the Reports that we were called on to read were as readable and as attractively produced as this Report, life would be very much easier.
  The first questions I asked myself were whether the problem was transitory and whether we were being wise to legislate for what might well be a passing phase. I do not believe that that is the case, certainly not in areas such as the constituency which I represent, on the fringe of South-West London. I believe that for as far ahead as we can see the lure of the Metropolis will be with us. In spite of efforts by local and national authorities, it seems extraordinarily difficult to cut down the size of London. I know that it is being done slowly, but there is pressure from people who want to work and live near London. I know that we must not range too wide in this debate, but one of the aspects of land
  742
  use that bothers me is the continued influx, as soon as we make room on the fringes of London, of people from Southern Ireland. I know the difficulties of the Minister, and I will not pursue that any further.
  We have been wise to recognise that the caravan is unpopular with a large section of the community. As a form of dwelling it is thoroughly disliked by those who live round it. I am not saying that that is the right attitude to adopt, but I believe that to be a fact. House owners who find a caravan or caravans stationed round their houses fervently believe that the value of their property is reduced by the presence of caravans, and they frequently petition hon. Members on the subject.
  I think that the proof of the pudding can be shown from paragraph 255 of the Report, where Sir Arton Wilson draws attention to the fact that
  "Less than one-sixth of all the specific permissions at present in force are unlimited as to time, and of the other five-sixths the great majority are limited to five years or less"
  That illustrates fairly clearly the attitude of mind of local authorities.
  The attitude is, "Caravans are an unpleasant necessity, and, we hope, a manifestation of a temporary state of mind." It is remarkable that my own county council found it necessary, when going into this problem carefully and when prodding the authorities for legislation very much on the lines of the Bill, to state categorically that its policy was not to exclude all caravans from the county—as though they had been coming under some pressure—and went on to claim that the figures of various sites showed that recent statements to that effect were entirely without foundation. Nevertheless, I think that my point is valid. There is pressure by existing house owners to restrict the spread of caravans. There we have the conflict, the continual pressure in areas such as I represent against the resistant pressure of the persons living there. That is what produced this Bill.
  I suggest that constituents of mine, and of other right hon. and hon. Members, will surely have many of their doubts set at rest by the licensing provisions in the Bill. It is just because there have not been the powers so far to have some form of control over the sites, or, at

  743
  any rate, effective control; it is just because the caravan site has a thoroughly bad name that it has become so very unpopular. Now that the country knows that effective control over the sanitary, health, water and other features can be ensured I think that, gradually, public opinion will come round in favour of the caravan site. The Bill, in essence, is completing the process of Parliament over a period of time to make an "honest woman" of the caravan.
  Dealing specifically with the interesting criticisms of the hon. and learned Member for Edge Hill it seems to me that there is some analogy—I realise that there is a wide gap—between this Bill and the provisions of Section 32 the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, dealing with advertisements. I am informed by my county council that the provision in that Act, which makes it a criminal offence to display advertisements in certain circumstances, and the threat of proceedings under the Act have been extremely efficacious, in the view of my county council, in dealing with advertisements.
  Here we are also making it a criminal offence to have a caravan site without a licence and I should expect, on past performance, that a similar threat might be more efficacious than a threat of town planning proceedings. I respectfully suggest that to the hon. and learned Member as a justification for the procedure which we are now considering.
  But what is the justification for explicity excluding local authorities from the provision regarding licences? Is the argument that they are less likely to fall below the standard we expect of them? If so, I think that all hon. Members could quote examples where a local authority site has fallen very far below the standard we would expect. I must confess that there are parts of the country where I look forward to further enforcement proceedings. So far, we seem to have talked as though the only beautiful country was in Wales, and that there is no beautiful country anywhere else.
  One of the place where I look forward to seeing some improvement is in the lovely country west of Sidmouth Bay, where it is possible to go for one of the most beautiful walks one can take; but when one breasts the hill to Ladrum
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  Bay—which must be one of the most beautiful natural views in the country— one is faced with a brash vulgar rash of caravans protruding right out on to the cliff head. A little planning would have resulted in siting those caravans out of the way of the many thousands of people who come to enjoy the natural beauty of that area.
  A point has been made about security of tenure, not for site operators but for the tenants of caravans. I hope that my right hon. Friend will resist pressure to bring in what I might call security of tenure for the individual tenant of a caravan. But it might be worth considering—I do not know whether it is possible —whether he could extend to caravans the same provision which exists for the tenants of privately rented properties and council properties, namely, that an effective notice to quit cannot be for a less period than one month. I have no idea whether such a provision is possible, but it would be on the lines of Parliamentary action in respect of other types of property.
  I wish to ask some questions of the Minister which, I hope, that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary may be able to answer. First, does he envisage that the licensing provisions, about which local authorities will doubtless receive guidance from the Ministry, will deal with overcrowding? I do not mean overcrowding in the form of numbers of caravans on a site, but the number of persons in an individual caravan. If that has not been envisaged, may I respectfully draw his attention, once again, to what is said by Sir Arton Wilson in paragraph 76 of his Report, which concludes with these words:
  "But my impression is that most caravan-ners, and the more responsible site-operators, nevertheless feel that where there are more than two small children in a family a caravan is not a suitable home at all."
  The proprietor of Warfield Park site, whom I have mentioned and who has given me permission to say this, himself imposes conditions about overcrowding. Prospective entrants to his site—which, I may say, is an exceptionally well-managed site—have to satisfy him that there will be no overcrowding. If they have what he regards as too large a family to be accommodated in one caravan he will not permit them on the site. I should like to know whether

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  the Minister envisages that similar conditions may apply in the case of licensed sites.
  Secondly, does my right hon. Friend envisage that the question of approach roads to the site will be dealt with? I know that the relevant Clause is introduced by words which have a wide meaning and I appreciate that the words which follow in no way limit the generality of the introduction, but I do not see there—it may be entirely my fault-any thing which appears to cover the condition of site roads between caravans and roads leading on to sites. We know —I could give one example from my own constituency—of the deplorable conditions of access roads off the highway and I should have thought that a right and proper thing to be included in the provisions in this Bill.
  May I warmly welcome something which has not been more than touched on, but which, in my view, is an exceptionally useful provision in the Bill? Clause 4 (3) requires the licence to be displayed. A matter which has bothered me up to now is that so often it is the young married couples who are "taken for a ride" by an unscrupulous operator, a person who has not bothered to obtain any form of permission. He invites people on to his site and then, later, they have to be cleared off. It is all right for the operator, who is generally financially secure. The unfortunate people are the young couples who have invested all their money in a caravan.
  I hope that the caravan associations— I do not doubt that they will follow what is said in this debate—will make it their duty to let it be known among their members that they should look for the site licence before renting or buying a caravan. If the licence is not available for inspection there is something wrong.
  I wish to conclude on a note of criticism. My hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Mr. de Ferranti)—unfortunately, he is not now in the Chamber—said that he was quite satisfied that compulsory powers were necessary. I am not. This may be a Committee point. As I have the Front Bench listening to me closely, I may not be put on to the Committee, but if I am I should personally want to hear the case for compulsory purchase argued much more fully than it has been argued.
  746
  I dislike it intensely and I should require it to be justified up to the hilt before being happy about seeing it in an Act of Parliament.
  Why is it necessary to give local authorities the right to run sites? The Minister has given two reasons so far. The first was that it would be necessary where there was not a sufficiency of sites at present. I respectfully say to him that I feel anxious about that reason. If there is not a sufficiency of sites it may very well be that there is a lack of demand. If, on the other hand, it is because there is not a willing vendor, I feel unhappy about making that unwilling vendor into one who is forced into selling. The second reason the Minister gave, which I realise is a strong one, is that if we are to have the tapering procedure we must ensure somewhere for these people to go, but do we need compulsory powers to do that?
  One of my local councils, Wokingham Rural District Council—which is an extremely well run council—has come to an agreement with all the site owners in the district and is operating a scheme by which they voluntarily undertake to work with the council on the question of who will be housed on their caravan sites. That is designed to assist in the housing problem in the rural district council area. I have no doubt whatever that in that rural district council ares compulsory powers will not be necessary because the matter can be dealt with by agreement. It has already been done without the powers of the Bill.
  I serve notice, as it were, that I hope the Parliamentary Secretary, in winding up the debate, will argue far more fully than has so far been argued that it is necessary to put into the hands of councils a power which, I believe, is far better operated by private enterprise, with all the stimulus of competition, and why this objectionable provision of power compulsorily to acquire land should be put in for a purpose which not everyone would agree is absolutely necessary.
  Having made that caveat of criticism, I join in the note sounded by all hon. Members on both sides of the House in congratulating my right hon. Friend on the skill with which he has prepared the ground which has resulted in a Bill being produced in an atmosphere of good will on all sides, particularly within

  747
  the industry. I very much hope that the Bill will be given a Second Reading.
  7.23 p.m.
  Sir Leslie Plummer: First I should like to apologise to the Minister because I was not present when he made his opening speech. I do not very much like the practice of hon. Members who have not listened to the earlier part of the debate coming into the Chamber and joining in, but I was inadvertently absent. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept that it was not a discourtesy to him on my part. I have gone to some trouble to find out what he said, and I am very glad that he quoted from the Arton Wilson Report, which deals with the squalid situation in which so many caravan dwellers are living.
  I join in the general support for this Bill and the congratulations to the right hon. Gentleman and those who have been responsible both for the Report and for the drafting of the Bill. Heaven help me, I cannot understand why I am praising the right hon. Gentleman who has done such untold harm in my constituency in other ways. This is a reluctant but nevertheless a real tribute to him.
  The hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) referred to the fact that most of us live in South-East London. This aroused the ire of one of my hon. Friends. If I may alter what Dr. Johnson said, "The man who is tired of London is tired of life". It is a perfectly understandable and natural ambition of most people to want to live in South-East London. That is the view of most of my constituents. One thing they want in particular is the preservation of the green belt.
  Unlike hon. Members who represent rural constituencies, I represent an overcrowded London dormitory borough in which there are very few open spaces and opportunities for recreation. That is being attended to by London County Council, however, and I hope that some more open spaces will be provided. To these people the green belt around London is a vital and important part of their lives. It gives them an opportunity to get away from terraced houses and comparatively mean streets into the country. I make the plea that at all times the serenity of the green belt shall be preserved, not in the interests of the
  748
  people who live in the rather more salubrious parts of the county, in the southwest, but in the London boroughs, for whom it is essential that the green belt should be preserved.
  I want to see the day come when we shall get rid of caravans as homes altogether, finally and completely. I agree that we have to keep them for holiday purposes. We have also to permit the continuance of some caravans for older people, to whom reference has been made, who find that living in a caravan makes a lot of housework unnecessary. I agree with the hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, South about the clashing colours of caravans. I cannot see anything aesthetically pleasant in the modern caravan. Those which the gipsies use are multi-coloured with all sorts of timber and ornament. Such a caravan is a gay thing, but the modern caravan is not a pleasant thing and it is not very attractive.
  The substitute for that is the provision of decent houses at rents which people can afford, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes). If we want to drive the unsightly caravan out of our towns and villages we must house people decently in contrast to the horrible conditions which have been described in the Report.
  I want to place some emphasis on the point raised about the licensing system. In this respect I am speaking not only for the Borough of Deptford, but also for the Borough of Burnley—my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. D. Jones) has been called away—and another Lancashire borough, Staly-bridge, which are also worried about this matter. My authority is very worried about planning permission being given by the planning authority. That would put the local authority in a position in which it would not have the power to refuse licences. It points out with great force that Clause 3 of the Bill provides that if an application is made to the local authority for planning permission of caravans—that in London would be from the county council—the local authority must issue the licence. The planning authority is not concerned with the question of water, sanitation or drainage. Those are considerations for the local authority.

  749
  I should think it right and proper to look at this matter when we reach the Committee stage, not only from the planning point of view, but from the point of view of public health. I should not like to try to make a balance on which is the more important, but if I did I think I should come down on the side of public health. It is important that a local authority should at least have some authority in the matter of the services and not be over-ridden by a planning authority which is not necessarily concerned about them.
  There is nothing new in the idea that an application for permission to develop has to be made to two authorities—to one for planning permission and to the other for byelaw consent. There has been some confusion, indeed some alarm, caused by what is regarded as the statement by the Ministry that local planning authorities must consult the licensing authority before giving planning permission for caravan sites while, at the same time, the Ministry has said that it would be undesirable for a person who has been given planning authority then to be denied a licence by the local authority for the reasons I have described, or for any other good reason.
  I hope that the Minister, who by the Bill has gone a long way in clearing up a bad situation, will give earnest consideration to my two points concerning the preservation of the green belt and, secondly, the power of the local authority to be able to make its representations to the planning authority on the vital questions of water, drainage and the rest before a licence is granted.
  7.31 p.m.
  Mr. A. Bourne-Arton: In craving the indulgence of the House, I realise the inadequacy with which I fill the place of my predecessor, Sir Fergus Graham, who first came into this House about thirty years ago and who was, I expect, as well loved here as he certainly was in Darlington.
  I should like to add to the chorus of praise for the Bill a word of thanks on behalf of those who, like myself, have for many years had to struggle on planning committees and, latterly National Park committees with the intricacy of the caravan problem.
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  I had not intended to try to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, until I received a letter from my town clerk this morning asking me to raise a point which has been raised already in the debate. The Borough of Darlington has no major problem concerning caravans. We have two caravan sites. Thanks to the inhabitants of the caravans, the site operators and the borough council, they are well conducted and present no great problem. The aspect of the Bill to which I should like to make a further reference is the question of dual control, which was raised first by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross). My right hon. Friend the Minister has said something about it already and the hon. Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer) has come back to it.
  Unless I am much mistaken, it seems to me that there is here a rather new principle. There is a widening of the factors which a planning authority can, and should, take into account before granting planning approval. Previously, as I have always understood, the Ministry has insisted that planning permissions must relate to planning considerations only and that they must not be used as a kind of universal longstop. In a borough, the planning authority and the public health authority are the same body, but they are different people in the counties, such as in my neighbouring county. If the two applications still have to come in, but the public health authority has no option but to grant a licence, surely the planning authority, before it grants planning permission, must take into account considerations of public health. That is something new.
  It may be a good thing to extend the powers of planning authorities, but if that is to be so in this case, there could well be other cases. There could be the case of somebody applying for planning permission to put up a building which, on planning grounds, was not objectionable, but which did not conform to the building regulations. In that case, the planning approval is given, but if the building does not conform with the building regulations it is somebody else's job to shoot it down.
  I will not labour the point, because I am sure that it has been ventilated sufficiently, but since I have been fortunate enough to be called, I should like to refer to Clause 18 (5) and the

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  question of compulsory purchase. I realise that I must be careful, because there are aspects of this matter which tend to be controversial. Many people, certainly outside this House, take the view that compulsory purchase is an unmitigated modern evil. I am precluded tonight from saying whether I consider it evil, but it is certainly not modern. It has always seemed to me that what worries the victim is not the compulsion, but the compensation. In the long history of compulsory purchase procedure, there are certain leading cases and it seems to me that what we should always bear in mind is that we should follow the best procedure.
  If I might remind the House of a leading case which I have always thought one of the more helpful, it was an early one, the case of Ahab v. Naboth in the matter of the vineyard. I have always thought that posterity has done rather less than justice to the reputation of King Ahab, because, although that affair had an unsatisfactory ending, up to the time when Ahab committed the criminal folly of allowing his wife to meddle in politics, his conduct of the negotiations was quite impeccable and could well serve as a model for us today.
  Students of the First Book of Kings will recall the circumstances. There was to be a redevelopment plan for the palace area. I do not know whether the king was under pressure from the members of his council who were complaining about the inadequacy of the accommodation provided for them in the royal palace. Be that as it may, in the plan was included a suggestion for a herb garden within the curtilege. Unfortunately, the only site which the planners considered possible was already occupied by the vineyard.
  It is important to remember that Ahab did not act in any arbitrary manner. He did not serve a demolition order. He did not even send a planning officer. Believing in personal contact and negotiation, he went himself. While we do not have verbatim minutes of the meeting, we know roughly what took place. It was something like this. Ahab must have explained about the development plan and the necessity for a herb garden. He would have pointed out, no doubt, that in an affluent society with an increasing standard of living, such a thing had become almost a necessity.
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  If we consider that there were to be not only culinary, but medicinal, herbs, the garden could, perhaps, have been claimed to be essential in the interests of public health. However, he discovered not what Naboth felt about the rising standard of living—we do not know about that. For my part, I am sometimes a little affrighted when people talk about doubling the standard of living, because I often find it extremely difficult to afford my present standard.
  What we know is that Naboth was an unwilling seller. He said that the place had been in his family for generations and that he did not want to part with it. The offer that was made was absolutely clear. What Ahab said was, "If you will give me your vineyard, I will give you a better vineyard or the worth of it in money." Thereafter, the story becomes less satisfactory and the "framing" of Naboth in the courts and his subsequent liquidation is, obviously, something which nobody nowadays would consider satisfactory, at least on this side of the Iron Curtain.
  I hope most sincerely that wherever in future, as in the past—it will often happen—Governments, central or local, find it necessary to invade and restrict the freedom of the individual to secure the freedom and justifiable aspirations of the many, in such cases where the individual, for sentimental or other good reason, is unwilling to sell, the Ahab rule shall apply and the individual shall be offered a better vineyard, be it ever so little better, or the worth of it in money.
  I am most grateful to the House for its indulgence.
  7.41 p.m.
  Sir Colin Thornton-Kemsley: In about twenty-one years in the House it has been my pleasure and privilege to congratulate a maiden speaker on more than one occasion; but never has it fallen to my lot to congratulate a maiden speaker who has spoken immediately preceding me from my own side of the House. For me, therefore, this evening is a memorable one, as indeed it has been for all of us in the House who have been privileged to listen to the maiden speech —I was going to say "extempore maiden speech "; I think that I am almost right in calling it "extempore"—of my hon.

  753
  Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Bourne-Arton). If it was not extempore, at any rate it was exemplary.
  Not only did it show in a modest way that my hon. Friend had a complete command of the subject and a very considerable personal experience of planning in the local sphere, but it revealed also, which some of us knew before, that my hon. Friend is a brilliant speaker and an even more brilliant wit. We enjoyed his speech immensely, we congratulate him upon it, and we hope very much that we shall very soon hear him speaking again in the House.
  I, like the hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Deer), am a caravanner, but unlike the hon. Gentleman I am what I think is called a mobile caravanner, as opposed to the hon. Gentleman, who described the delights of the Sussex Downs as viewed from the interior of a static van. As a mobile caravanner, I must confess an interest. I confess it as a member of an organisation which has certain privileges under the present legislation, namely, the Caravan Club, of which I am a member of council and of which I was a member of the executive committee for many years.
  I confess this interest because, along with 21,000 other full members of the Caravan Club, I am by the Bill, if it goes through in its present form, being deprived of rights which I have enjoyed for upwards of ten years. I am being deprived of those rights, as I think, unjustifiably and without good and sufficient reason.
  The rights derive from the General Development Order, 1950, under the First Schedule of which, in Class V, members of an organisation which has a certificate of exemption granted by the Minister of Health under Section 269 of the Public Health Act, 1936, are allowed to make use of land for purposes of recreation or instruction without having to have a licence. We have that right by virtue of these provisions as members of Class V of the First Schedule of the General Development Order, 1950, because we are members of an approved organisation.
  Clause 2 (2, c) exempts land occupied by approved organisations, but individual members will in future be denied the right that they have hitherto had, and which they have possessed for about
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  ten years, except in the circumstances set out in Clause 2 (2, f). That is a very narrow one indeed, because it applies only to exemptions in the case of sites of not more than five acres which stand within the area of a rural district council and upon which not more than three caravans are allowed to be sited at any one time. This rules out altogether for the mobile caravanner, who has had these rights for the last ten years, the possibility of halting for the night on small sites in urban district council areas. It is a very drastic curtailment of the present freedom of genuine mobile caravanners.
  What happens at present? Class IV(2) of the General Development Order says, in effect, that any land may be used for caravanners for not more than twenty-eight days. One of the contributory reasons why the Bill is presented to the House today is that that twenty-eight day provision has been grossly abused.
  I must say in passing that as a matter of historic interest it was the Caravan Club which first proposed to limit the permission to a specific number, and it proposed that five caravans was about right for that permission.
  I wonder whether we have not gone too far. The first objective of those of us who go on tour in our caravans is to get as far away from our starting place as we can on the first day. When we have travelled for most of the day we begin to look around for somewhere where we can halt for the night. When we caravan in the Highlands, the one thing we always look out for is a cow, because if we can see a cow it means a milk supply and, if there is a milk supply, we usually find a croft or a farm where we obtain permission to pull up for the night and enjoy a night's rest before moving on. That is in a rural district.
  If, as is the case very often, there are small sites used by mobile caravanners in urban districts or within the area of an urban district council, as may often be the case, they are out. The unfortunate caravanner whose family is becoming more and more hungry and whose wife says, "We must pull up soon, otherwise we will never have the evening meal", has to look out first to see what local authority area he is passing

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  through. He will have to inquire whether it is the area of an urban district council or the area of a rural district council. When he has found that out, he will have to look round for a site and will have to find out if it is of five acres or less. If it is, he will have to make sure that that area does not include the buildings erected upon it. He will have to go through this procedure in order to conform with the rather strange provisions of Clause 2 (2, f).
  I would ask my right hon. Friend if subsection (2, f) would be seriously weakened if the reference to a rural district council area and to five or more acres were to be deleted. For my part, I do not think it would make any real difference to the Clause, and it would certainly be a great advantage to us if the deletion could be made.
  To return to the withdrawal of the right which 21,000 full members of the Caravan Club and I have enjoyed for the last ten years, I could understand it if we had abused that right, but no one has claimed that we have abused it in any kind of way. I asked the secretary of the Caravan Club yesterday morning if he would come to see me and enlighten me upon this point. I asked him if, during the nine years in which he has been secretary of the Club, covering almost exactly the time between the publication of the General Development Order and the present day, he could remember any cases where this right of exemption accorded to members of exempted bodies had been abused.
  He thought for a few minutes, and then said, "Yes, I can remember four cases. There was a case in Bexhill, there was one in Anglesey and one on the Norfolk Coast. Every one of these was dealt with satisfactorily by the Club, and we have correspondence from the local authorities to say so. The fourth case was one in the East Riding of Yorkshire, which has already elicited very friendly letters from the county council thanking the Club for its help. That was a case in what was generally recognised to be a particularly difficult area for this kind of thing."
  When Class V of the First Schedule to the General Development Order was being considered ten years ago, the Caravan Club could offer only good will
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  and good faith. Today, it can add to those a sound record. The exemptions have not been abused, and the Caravan Club has worked in the closest co-operation with local authorities throughout the country. Its system of new site signs, the signs themselves being approved by the Council of Industrial Design, and the whole scheme being blessed by the County Councils Association, has just been put into operation, and there is every indication that it will work very well indeed and set a definitely high standard of caravan sites throughout the country. Finally, it has a record of very successful co-operation with the National Trust, and, in places like Borrowdale, with the National Parks Commission.
  I want to make one practical suggestion. It might be possible by a slight amendment of Clause 2 to give a limited exemption to members of an exempted organisation. Let me try to explain what I mean. The Caravan Club publishes yearly a handbook, in which it lists certain sites which take Caravan Club members only. These sites are marked in a special way, and they are most carefully selected. They satisfy all the requirements of a good site for caravanning from the public health and planning points of view. I suggest that sites of this kind, accommodating not more than, shall we say, five caravans at a time, might be exempted in Clause 2. The effect, as I see it, would be that if a local authority informed the Caravan Club that in any case that exemption was being abused on a particular site, that site would at once be deleted from the handbook, and members would be warned not to use it. Such sites could then be dealt with as provided for in the Act, and, of course, Clause 2 (3) provides for certificates being withdrawn as well as granted.
  Now may I turn to a different point altogether concerning landlords' consent? I have sat all through the debate this evening, and I think that this is a point which has not been made hitherto. Applicants for licences to use land as caravan sites, if they are not themselves the owners of the land, in my view ought to be required to satisfy the local authority that the landlord has himself given his consent, either specifically or by virtue of the applicant's occupation.

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  Clause 3 (2) enables the Minister to require applicants to supply such particulars as may be prescribed when they are making their applications for licences. I hope that my right hon. Friend will make it a condition or a requirement in the form of application that the occupier should state that he has the landlord's consent. I say that because I think it is important that occupiers of agricultural land, indeed, tenants of non-agricultural land, and in Scotland in particular crofters, ought not to be entitled to a licence unless they can establish the fact that they have their landlord's permission to operate a caravan site on that land.
  I mention crofters because there is a particular point here. The Crofters Commission, the tourist associations and other bodies have been doing a lot of urging lately that crofters should help the tourist industry in Scotland. They are being encouraged, by grants in some cases, to install electricity and water and even to build chalets on their land, or rather on the crofts which they rent, for tourist purposes and to encourage tourism in the Highlands and the crofting counties. That is a good thing, but the position of landlord and tenant in the crofting counties is that the landlord, on outgo, has to pay compensation for all these improvements. It is highly important that, if the crofter has spent money in turning what was originally an agricultural croft into something like a caravan site, he should not be required to claim at outgoing the cost of these improvements from the landlord, unless he had had permission to make that alteration in the land before he received his licence.
  I wish now to mention another point which I think was mentioned by the hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes) in opening the debate from the other side of the House. I think there ought to be some procedure in the Bill for a landlord or neighbouring owner, whose amenities may perhaps be affected or who may have other objections, to object to the local authority granting a licence, I think there should be a right of appeal on behalf of the land owner if that licence is granted without his consent.
  Mr. Ross: Would the hon. Gentleman apply something of the same nature in respect of those sites which he mentioned at the start of his speech, where no
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  licence will be required at all? Have neighbouring persons with these interests no right to object at all, or could they possibly have a right to object? If the hon. Gentleman's suggestion were accepted, would not these people require to have a licence?
  Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley: No, these are sites that could be operated under the Bill by exempted bodies; small sites, where caravanners can halt for the night, having not more than three caravans on them, or something like that. There should be the ordinary legal right for anyone to object to anything that could constitute a nuisance. Otherwise, I do not think that any special provision should be made for small sites like that —although that could be looked at.
  I agree with what was said by the hon. Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer) and by my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Mr. de Ferranti) about an occupier wanting to establish a site requiring a licence from the local authority and planning permission from the local planning authority. That is all to the good but, as has been pointed out, Clause 3 provides that the local authority must issue a licence if the occupier concerned has obtained planning permission. If my interpretation of that part of the Clause is correct, I think that that provision is wrong.
  The planning people are concerned with broad questions of amenity—the siting of caravan sites, availability of public services, and so on. The local authority—for instance, the district council—is concerned with more detailed matters, such as water supply, sanitation, disposal of waste, spacing of caravans on the site, and other matters affecting public health in some way.
  My hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) has drawn my attention to the fact that in Cornwall the public health officers have got together, and have drawn up standard conditions for general application throughout the county. Those conditions have now been passed by the county council, and ensure that the sites for which licences are granted have all the requisite services, and will be properly conducted. Local authorities should have the last word in deciding whether or not to grant a licence, and should not

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  be compelled to grant it simply because the planning authority has given planning permission.
  I agree also with my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale, who asked why tented sites have not been included in the Bill. Goodness knows, they require planning control, and control, in the public interest, just as much as caravan sites do—perhaps even more so. I am sorry that they are not included.
  8.4 p.m.
  Mr. John E. Talbot: I represent an area that contains a place of great beauty known as Kinder Edge, and there is naturally a likelihood that a large number of people—among them some of my own constituents—from the industrial areas in the Black Country Will want to visit it and enjoy the natural amenities of that very beautiful site.
  There is, invariably, a great conflict of interest between those who wish to take the opportunity to pay a visit and the permanent residents. Many of the permanent residents have built houses at considerable cost, and they feel a certain element of resentment against what is sometimes described as an invasion of caravans from industrial areas. I welcome the Bill, as it enables a fair and just balance to be struck by the local authorities between those two conflicting interests.
  Unlike some of my hon. Friends, I do not shy from compulsory purchase provisions, because I can conceive of cases where that is the only feasible means of achieving a regular and ordered development of a site. Powers of compulsory purchase ought to be granted only after very careful thought, and local authorities should not in any way be encouraged in that course in regard to a caravan site merely because of the financial profits that may accrue to them. A compulsory purchase order is sometimes not a matter of asking for five acres or ten acres, or, even more, from one landowner. It may be needed for the tidying up of a number of small freehold sites that have become unsightly and against public interest and for the maintenance of this balance of interests.
  I wish to reinforce what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Mr. de Ferranti)
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  about the necessity of ensuring standards of construction of caravans at a national and not a local level. I hope that it will be possible for my right hon. Friend suitably to amend the Bill to this end, as I think that this should be done by agreement between the representatives of local authorities, of those who construct caravans and of those who use them. The matter should be dealt with by Ministerial regulation rather than by allowing every council to set its own standards and thus create a local rule that may cause the difficulties referred to by my hon. Friend in relation to the standardisation that is so important in modern manufacture.
  The Bill contains two very different parts. Part II deals with management and general planning law. I am sorry that the Minister has seen fit to remove appeals from the magistrates' courts to himself. As far as possible, matters of a judicial nature ought to be decided by the ordinary courts. At the same time, I entirely agree with him in his action in taking the appeal away from magistrates' courts, because they are not suitably constituted to deal with such matters.
  Clause 26 seems to contain an amalgamation of two very different ideas. First of all, it imports a decision on whether planning permission ought to be granted. That is purely an administrative matter; no court of law can adjudicate on it, and it is adequately dealt with by the existing powers of appeal to the Minister. Therefore, subsection (1, a) is not, in my view, a matter proper for judicial determination. All the remaining paragraphs are, because they are purely matters of fact.
  Where matters of fact are concerned, there is only one satisfactory way of dealing with them, and that is that each party shall state his case to an impartial judge who then and there gives judgment on the disputed questions of fact. Up to now that has happened in the magistrates' courts. There is a hearing, which is impartial, and both sides have their chance to give evidence. Then there is a decision.
  I suggest to my right hon. Friend that instead of taking these appeals to his own Department, they should be sent to the county court. There is plenty of precedent for appeal on matters of local government to county court judges. I

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  remind hon. Members that under the Housing Acts a demolition order is subject to appeal to the county court. Under the Landlord and Tenant Act county court judges have to act as arbitrators on shop rents. It is a simple procedure and works well. Each side has a valuer, and the judge decides on the evidence before him what the rent is to be, assessing it on the relevant value.
  On questions of fact, under paragraphs (b) to (g) of Clause 26 (1) the best method of dealing with disputes of this kind is to allow them to be taken to the county court. Under Clause 21 (1, a), is it not better to allow enforcement notices to take their course as such? In many cases they arise because someone has asked for planning permission and has had it refused, and he has then defied the authorities and proceeded with what he was doing. In such a case, the man who has had planning permission refused has the right of appeal to the Minister, and he ought to exercise it at that stage. This procedure gives him a second chance to appeal. These are, therefore, two aspects: questions of administrative convenience and administrative right and questions of a judicial hearing on matters of fact.
  We all know what happens at a public inquiry. A report is made to the Minister. I am perfectly certain that in dealing with that report the Minister endeavours to sort our from the conflicting evidence what is the true and correct position. In that respect he acts in the same way as any judge would act. But we must not forget that the Minister is not a judge; he is an executive officer of the Crown, he is a politician. We call him a politician when he does what we do not want him to do and we call him a statesman when he does what we want him to do.
  The Minister is entitled to take into account not merely the question of abstract justice on the facts but also questions whether, in the public interest and from the point of policy, it is right to do what the appellant asks. It is quite right that he should take those matters into consideration. I say to him, with great respect, however, that matters arising under paragraphs (b) to (g) of subsection (1) are not matters of administrative convenience but solely matters of
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  truth and fact. A person aggrieved under those paragraphs need not be deprived of his appeal to the courts.
  The tribunals to which I would advise that such appeals be allowed—the county courts—are local. They are rapid, and a man will get a decision in half the time that the Ministry at present takes to give it. County courts have the reputation that where a county court judge gives a decision, in 999 cases out of 1,000 such a decision is accepted as fair by Che parties concerned. A Ministerial decision is a dip into the lucky bag of chance.
  Mr. H. Brooke: Oh, no.
  Mr. Talbot: One never knows how it will come out. I know that authorities sometimes make representations to my right hon. Friend to the effect that he is too lenient in allowing planning appeals, and I have no doubt that a dissatisfied applicant feels that he is too severe in not allowing the appeal. My right hon. Friend disagrees with me, but there is an element of chance in Ministerial decisions which does not apply to a fully judicial hearing.
  I know that my right hon. Friend disagrees with what I say, but I ask him to give the matter one final examination to see whether it is not possible to preserve the subject's right of appeal to the courts in as many cases as possible.
  "I beseech you".
  said Cromwell,
  "in the bowels of Christ think it possible you may be mistaken."
  8.17 p.m.
  Mr. William Ross: I had hoped that we were to be given some enlightenment from a Scottish Minister on how the Bill will affect Scotland. I have waited long and not unwearily, but no information has been forthcoming. Yet although certain aspects of the problem do not arise in Scotland, we have the problem where caravans near some large towns have become an alternative to a long wait on the housing list for people who want council houses. People in those circumstances have had to resort to caravans. This is the subject of not only present importance in Scotland, but of increasing importance.
  We have had reference to the efforts of the Tourist Board and the Crofters'

  763
  Commission to interest people in the glories of the Highlands, but there is no doubt that even if we solved our road problems in those areas we should still be left with the great problem of adequately catering for visitors who want hotel accommodation. At present, many people who wish to see and enjoy that part of Scotland do so by using mobile caravans, and that will increasingly be the case as the years pass.
  From the Scottish point of view, therefore, it is desirable that we should look carefully at the Bill to see how it will assist us in respect of the present concern about the caravan problem in Scotland. We must consider the future possibility of adequately catering for those who venture on our Scottish roads, not only in the Highlands but in many other areas, with the encumbrance of a caravan behind them.
  I do not know whether the Joint Under-Secretary of State realises it, but in many parts of Scotland there has been much conflict about some of the existing caravan sites. There have been questions about the power of local authorities, planning permission and other things. Such a Bill as this, and certainly Part I of it, will be generally welcomed in Scotland. I do not doubt that. I can recollect the Ayr County Council being very concerned about what was happening in connection with a development of caravan sites at Maidens.
  Many caravan sites have grown up throughout Scotland about which many people know nothing, because they have been discreetly sheltered by being placed in areas which are not easy of access. In many ways, they may be the better type of place for a caravan site, but, as they are out-of-the-way sites, it may well be that the conditions are unsatisfactory for the people who are living there. I entirely agree with the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley) that we must protect caravanners from exploitation and from the disappointment which they have when they find that what was held out to be a wonderful caravan site is, in fact, quite dreadful. I have been told about this by people who have had this unpleasant experience.
  764
  But the question which I should really like to ask is: exactly why do we have the Bill in this form? The Bill will leave the House and go to a Committee either of the whole House or upstairs, and the Committee will proceed to amend it. But before a Scotsman can even understand the Bill he has to start by amending it. One reads over Clauses 1 to 24 and finds that Scotland is not mentioned. There is no connection with Scotland. If it had not been for the fact that the name of the Secretary of State for Scotland had been printed on the Bill as one of its supporters, we might have neglected the Bill in our concern for legislation, but Clause 25 says:
  "This Part of this Act shall apply to Scotland with the following modifications …"
  "Modifications" sounds nice.
  Then we have a list of modifications— (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), (g), (h), (i), and (j). I think that those responsible then got tired and visualised my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) and myself rising on Second Reading and asking whether it was quite necessary to go through the whole alphabet to get all the modifications that the Government wanted in respect of Scotland, because thereafter they added paragraphs (2) and (3) to deal with further modifications.
  It means that before a Scotsman can properly appreciate what legally is happening—and this will apply to Scottish lawyers who try to understand the Bill— he must go through Clauses 1 to 24 and make these modifications. I protest that it is not fair and right that we should be put into this position of being handed something which is not understandable until one has spent a long time making alterations. Then one has to start asking why this or that is left out or included in relation to Scotland, by which time one finds oneself getting away from the broad principles which we should be debating on Second Reading.
  I sometimes wonder whether the Scottish Office knew anything at all about the Bill. I have more than a fear that it was drawn up by English lawyers and draftsmen and that it was thrown to the Scottish Office and somebody said, "Oh, you have caravans in Scotland, too. Would you like to put in some modifications?"

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  We have been dealing in the Scottish Standing Committee with the Mental Health (Scotland) Bill, one aspect of which is concerned with having a particular place licensed. That licence has to be shown in a conspicuous place. If it is not, there is a fine. I have not a copy of the Bill with me, but I think that the fine is about £5, and that is in relation to something terribly important and in connection with places where we are anxious to provide proper care and treatment in private hospitals for the mentally defective and the mentally ill.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Sir William Anstruther-Gray): I hope that the hon. Member will not stray too far from the Bill, which deals not with mentally defective people, but with caravans and caravan sites.
  Mr. Ross: Yes, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but I was drawing attention to a case where a licence has to be displayed in a prominent place and if it is not so displayed there is a fine of £5. Under this Bill, where a caravan site has to be licensed and the licence must be displayed in a prominent place on that site the fine is not £5 for failure to do that, but £100. Where is the logic of that? I think that the Scottish Office never saw this until it was done by English colleagues and then it was thrown to the Scottish Office.
  I congratulate the Minister of Housing and Local Government on having learned from experience. As I have said, the first 24 Clauses make no reference to Scotland and then Clause 25 applies to Scotland, but there are many Clauses thereafter and Part II of the Bill deals with general control and development. This is a very important amendment of town and country planning legislation. The Minister, however, said that there had been no trouble about this in Scotland and so it was decided to make no alterations.
  I wonder whether that is true. Does the right hon. Gentleman remember what happened the last time he incorporated changes in Scottish town and country planning law at the same time as he changed the law in England? Does he remember that on every single Clause we had to have a Scottish application until no one knew quite what we were talking about in relation to town and country planning legislation and when there were
  766
  such complaints from the legal profession in Edinburgh that the Government, after the Bill was passed, were forced to print a new Bill in Scottish style? The right hon. Gentleman probably remembers even now the kind of time we had in Committee when he found that two Scotsmen could be very persistent in asking for information about what changes were being made in Scottish legislation. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman does not desire to repeat that experience.
  Is it because of convenience to himself or convenience to Scottish Ministers that it may well be that necessary amendments to town and country planning legislation are being denied to Scotland? Is it because the right hon. Gentleman does not want to go through the same process again, by virtue of the form of the Bill or, alternatively, does not want to do what he ought to have done, give us a separate Scottish Bill, in which case we could have reasonably dealt with it in Committee, on Report and on Third Reading on the basis of Scottish law?
  On the last occasion when we had this change in town and country planning as applied to Scotland the Minister started by saying that no one in Scotland wanted it, that it was purely academic in relation to Scotland. Purely academic! The Bill extends the power of compulsory purchase. The previous town and country Measure was devoted to compulsory purchase, and I remember the Minister saying that he would not extend the compulsory powers of purchase of any local authority. He has gone back on that.
  What was the result of the Bill which was "purely academic" for Scotland? The result was the same as in England, that the cost of land bought under compulsory purchase went up considerably. Indeed, the land which is to be bought by a local authority for caravan sites, under compulsory purchase if necessary, will cost more as a result of that piece of legislation.
  My main purpose in rising is to make my protest, once again, about the way in which Scottish business has been handled. It is not right that it should be done in this way. In view of what has happened in the past. I am not convinced that we are not being denied the benefits of modernised attitudes and

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  outlooks as applied to town planning in Part II of the Bill purely for the legislative convenience of the Minister of Housing and Local Government or of the Ministers at the Scottish Office.
  8.30 p.m.
  Mr. Ronald Russell: I know that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) will forgive me if I do not follow him in what he has been saying about Scotland, although I shall end my remarks by mentioning somewhere only just south of the Border. Like most other speakers, I welcome the Bill. I apologise to the House for not having been in my place as long as I normally like to be before taking part in a debate, though I heard my right hon. Friend's opening speech and about half the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes), and I have been in my place for most of the last one-and-a-half hours.
  I support what was said about compulsory purchase orders by my hon. Friends the Members for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) and Darlington (Mr. Bourne-Arton). If I may say so, the hon. Member for Darlington made a magnificent speech. I am sorry to see Clause 18 in the Bill, although I realise it may be necessary in the case of some local authorities. I only hope they will use their powers sparingly because, like many other hon. Members, I do not like to see an extension of compulsory purchase orders unless such an extension is absolutely necessary.
  I am glad to see from Clause 18 (7) that a local authority shall not have power to provide caravans. I am not so happy to see from subsection (8) of that Clause that the expression "local authority"—
  "…includes the council of a county and a joint planning board constituted under section four of the Act of 1947."
  This brings me to my second point. I am sorry that the Bill apparently leaves in being a situation whereby at present a planning authority may over-rule the decisions taken by a local district council which may have refused permission for a site, and in doing so may be speaking mostly for the ratepayers it represents.
  Last Friday, in a debate on the Adjournment, my hon. Friend the Mem-
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  ber for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Corfield) mentioned an instance where this had happened in his constituency. I supported my hon. Friend and I quoted an instance which had happened in Northumberland at a place which may be known to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central (Mr. Short). There a site has been approved by the local planning authority, which is the planning committee of the Northumberland County Council, which has overruled the decision of the local parish council and the Belford Rural District Council, both of which passed, by very large majorities, resolutions refusing planning consent.
  I am sorry to see that the Bill does not make that process more difficult. At least it should be essential that, when a local planning authority does this kind of thing, it should do so meeting in public, not in private. This planning authority has powers delegated to it by the Northumberland County Council. It meets in private, and in taking the decision to over-rule two lower local authorities, it did so without the Press being present. Nobody knows exactly on what grounds this decision was reached.
  I know there is another Bill before this House which may set that matter right in time, but that is not the point. I am sorry that the Bill does not make such a decision impossible, because it is not democratic that an area planning authority, on which there may be members from parts of the country totally different from those affected by such a decision, should be able to take such a decision when meeting in private. I have a certain amount of interest in this, because I have a small house in Seahouses. It does not worry me so much, as I am not there as often as I should like to be and, therefore, I am not so affected as are many other residents.
  One of my hon. Friends mentioned that people think—whether rightly or wrongly, he did not express an opinion —that the value of property decreases when a caravan site is established nearby. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will express an opinion about this. If the value of property is depreciated by the establishment of a caravan site nearby, that is important from the point of view of the owners of the property.

  769
  I regret that the conflict of interest over an area planning authority, particularly one with delegated powers which meets in private, over-ruling a local authority like a parish council or a local district council, has not been resolved and will continue to operate under the provisions of the Bill.
  8.36 p.m.
  Mr. Forbes Hendry: I was extremely interested in what my hon. Friend the Member for Wembley, South (Mr. Russell) said about the possible conflict between the local authorities, planning authorities and true local authorities such as parish councils. I am glad to see in the Bill that in England and Wales the rural councils are local authorities for the purpose of licensing caravan sites. I wish to elaborate this point, particularly in dealing with Scotland.
  I am disappointed that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) has gone out, because he said at some length that he did not understand the Bill. If he had taken a little more trouble to sit through this debate he would have learnt a great deal more about it. I have sat in the Chamber since 2.30, with a short interval for refreshment, and have learnt a great deal. I commend to the hon. Member that it would be a good thing before interfering in a debate of this sort that he should sit through it and learn what has been said previously.
  I have taken the trouble to find out what the application of this Bill is to Scotland, and to discuss it with my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State. I have made certain suggestions to him and will not repeat them now. The hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes) at the beginning of this debate spoke about the possibility of differences of opinion between the planning authority and the local authority, but suggested—and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) repeated it—the possibility of consultation between these two authorities. After a very long period as clerk to a local authority which was not a planning authority, I can say that that presents no difficulty at all. These consultations take place every day and very satisfactory results are arrived at.
  In England and Wales the local authority aspect of this Bill is brought right down to rural and urban councils.
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  In Scotland it is resolved under the county councils for the landward areas and under town councils for the small burghs. That is a pity, because in Scotland there are a number of other authorities called district councils which are different from the district councils in England—the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. T. Fraser) understands what I mean. It is a pity that in its application to Scotland the Bill does not make district councils the local authorities. I ask my hon. Friend the Joint Undersecretary of State for Scotland to consider that and to see whether, when the Bill reaches Committee, small local authorities could not be included.
  Mention has been made of the possibility of a division of opinion between the real local authority and the local planning authority. Whatever may be the position in England and Wales, the possibility of such division of opinion is greater in Scotland where there are vast county areas divided into districts. Members of the district council, the local people, know exactly what they want and how to look after local amenities and the interests of their own districts, but it is possible in Scotland, in my constituency, for example, for a holiday resort to be at the mercy of a county council whose headquarters are 60 miles away and the majority of whose members are not interested in the area where the caravan park is to be sited.
  It is highly desirable, especially in the North of Scotland, that district councils should be the local authorities concerned. We have heard from various hon. Members about the Bill's importance to holiday caravan sites and in respect of itinerant caravans, parking for one night in remote places. Most of the references to remote places have been concerned with Wales, but there are other remote parts of the country, especially in my constituency. The hon. Member for Anglesey spoke about his constituency having the most beautiful coastline in Great Britain. Not having any coastline to speak of in my constituency, I am not prepared to argue about that, but if he had said the most beautiful valley, I would have quarrelled with him.
  We all realise the importance of caravan sites, but in Scotland we are not,

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  so far, affected by the caravan as a permanent home, although we have a very lively appreciation of the value of a caravan in a holiday resort. In Scotland, the district council is the authority to deal with that. From my informal conversations with my hon. Friend the Joint Under-Secretary I have appreciated that there may be difficulties in that in Scotland a district council is not a health authority. Those objections have some validity, but my hon. Friend should reconsider the matter because, in cases like this, the district council does tremendously important work for the tourist trade.
  In my constituency there is Braemar, which is a small village and members of the district council, acting in a slightly different capacity, are responsible for the promotion of the Braemar Gathering, which is known to the ends of the earth. That is a tremendous organisation and to say that the members of an authority who are capable of organising that gathering are not capable of organising a caravan site is complete nonsense.
  A few miles away there is Aboyne, which is not a burgh and, almost of the same size, there is Ballater, which is a burgh. Ballater has caravan sites which it looks after very well, but Aboyne is under the jurisdiction of the county council at Aberdeen, 40 miles away. That is quite wrong and the district council is the appropriate local authority in a case of that sort. The district council in Aboyne runs the Aboyne Games which are known to the ends of the earth and involve much more organisation than any caravan site.
  My English friends may laugh at that, but I repeat that in Scotland, as the Minister has said, we have not yet got to the stage of being troubled with caravan sites as a permanent institution. We are concerned with the caravan site as an adjunct of the tourist industry and thus tremendously important for the North of Scotland.
  Even if my hon. Friend is right and there is a difficulty because district councils are not health authorities, there is a very strong case for making district councils the local authorities mentioned in Clause 18 which proposes to enable local authorities to own and administer
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  caravan sites. As has been said, caravan sites can be a very useful source of revenue to a small local authority.
  A great deal of difficulty has been encountered by district councils in Scotland in the tourist areas in not being able to advertise their tourist attractions. I suggest—it may be a little out of order but I crave your indulgence, Mr. Deputy-Speaker—that those owning and administering caravan sites might provide a fund which would be available for advertising these attractions to tourists. That is a very desirable thing. Braemar and Aboyne, in my constituency, and many other places in the Highland counties cannot advertise themselves, but other places like Ballater can spend money in advertising, and this leads to a certain amount of unfairness.
  I do not expect the Minister to answer these points tonight, because probably they are Committee points, but I suggest that the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland should think about them very seriously, and that Amendments should be made in Committee to put into effect the suggestions I have made.
  One point which I feel may weigh with the Government is that not all district councils are suitable local authorities for this purpose, because in Lanarkshire and places in the South there are district councils where conditions are completely different, but it might meet the case if district councils were to be certified by the Secretary of State as suitable for this purpose.
  I appreciate very much the invitation which the Minister, in opening the debate, gave to hon. Members on both sides of the House to make suggestions which they thought might improve the Bill. I have tried to make constructive and helpful suggestions, which I recommend for the consideration of the Joint Undersecretary when the Bill is considered in Committee.
  8.47 p.m.
  Mr. Edward Short(Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central): I congratulate the hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Bourne-Arton) and the hon. and learned Member for Kensington, South (Mr. Roots) on their maiden speeches. Both spoke with great fluency, great ability and great knowledge of the subject. Both appeared to be quite relaxed and not at all nervous, although I can quite understand how they

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  feel because, although I have sat on the Front Bench for five years, this is my debut from the Dispatch Box.
  I am very glad that on this occasion it is such a genial topic. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Mr. Deer), I am an enthusiastic caravanner, although I think that I am mobile and he is not. I agree that many other people are not nearly so enthusiastic about caravans as we are. Indeed, many people throughout the country see red the moment the word "caravan" is mentioned. The hon. Member for Woking-ham (Mr. van Straubenzee) said that caravan sites had a bad name and that the object of the Bill was to make the caravan an "honest lady".
  I think that the public attitude to the caravan was summed up a little more aptly by a gentleman whom I regard as Britain's No. I caravanner, Mr. White-man, the editor of the magazine Caravan. In a paper which he presented to the Royal Society of Arts in 1957, called "The Social Aspect of the Caravan", he put forward a very interesting theory that the caravan evokes almost a racial memory not only in the people who participate in caravanning but in the people who oppose it—a racial memory which stems from the fear of danger and barbarism and which has come to be associated from time immemorial with the nomad.
  When the hon. Member for Newark or I suddenly appear on the village green from over the hills and far away with our mobile homes, we immediately attract to ourselves all the prejudice which was traditionally attracted to the nomad who appeared on the village green in generations past. A good deal of the trouble arises from the fact that that prejudice against the nomadic way of life has been projected to caravans in general. In all the controversies that are always bubbling up about caravans a great deal of prejudice and emotion is generated without there being very much reason behind it. Having said that, I nevertheless agree that there is a considerable caravan problem in Britain. This problem is created by a rapidly growing preference for this mobile dwelling in a very small and over-populated country.
  Hon. Members on this side of the House welcome the Bill in so far as it
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  tackles that problem. As my hon. Friends have said, we believe that the Bill has many minor defects, and some omissions. From what the Minister said, we have great hopes that these will be remedied in Committee.
  This has been a very harmonious debate; indeed, it is probably the most harmonious that the Minister of Housing and Local Government has taken part in for some years. No suggestion of a party point has been made by anybody. I do not want to introduce an inharmonious note into the debate, but I want to make a general observation on the Bill. It deals only with half the caravan problem. Anybody who understands this problem will agree that it has two aspects.
  There is the negative aspect—the need for increased control, with which I fully agree—and the positive aspect, which finds expression in a positive public policy on caravanning—a policy arising out of the recognition that the caravan is a socially acceptable way of living and of spending one's holidays. It seems to me that concentration on the negative approach, without an accompanying positive public policy, will not achieve very much.
  The extent to which the Bill deals with any suggestion of a positive policy towards caravanning is almost negligible. The Arton Wilson Report, in its summary in paragraphs 350 and 351, mentions two points made by the representatives of caravan dwellers; first,
  "that there should be a more positive and sympathetic public policy towards caravan-living —in particular, encouragement to site operators to equip their sites well, and willingness to allow land to be used for caravan sites in the areas where a demand for caravan-living exists,"
  and, secondly, that
  "as a corollary of this the powers of local authorities to control site location and conditions should be considerably strengthened." The Government seem to have accepted the corollary without doing anything about the recommendation. We have the corollary, but not the main proposition.
  This is a one-legged or half-hearted approach, which, without an accompanying positive public policy towards caravanning, is not adequate. I do not know how many hon. Members have read the comment in this week's Country Life, but it says that the Bill appears to be a hurried Bill, and that if we had been

  775
  prepared to wait longer for it we should probably have got a much better one. I am inclined to agree. For one thing, it is a Siamese twin; it has two parts which deal with related matters.
  Part I deals with caravan sites, and Part II with enforcement notices, although I agree that some enforcement notices may deal with caravan sites. It is like the old syllogism that all dogs are animals, but all animals are not dogs. It is an untidy way of legislating to put two things like this together in one Bill. I complained about that, and I am sorry to introduce this note of slight disharmony, but it is a half-hearted approach to the caravan problem, and an untidy way of legislating.
  That probably arises from the background to the Bill, and the Minister said, and we are all agreed, that the background to the Bill is Sir Arton Wilson's Report. But the Report deals only with residential caravans. The first sentence of the Report says:
  "This Report is about people … who live in caravans and have no other homes."
  It deals with residential caravans, which are only part of the problem. They are an important, but not the biggest part.
  There are three distinct categories of caravans. I will not give the figures, because they have been given by many hon. Members. There are residential caravans, and at the other end of the scale there are what I call the elite of the caravanning world, 13,000 people who own their own caravans and park them in the corner of an orchard, a field or a farmyard, and visit them at weekends and perhaps tow them round the country or take them on the Continent for their holidays. Between those two extremes there are the caravans which are used by holiday makers, and we are told that in 1958 3 million people, one in 16 of the population, spent their holidays in that type of caravan. There are 50 per cent. more of that type of caravan than residential caravans.
  Each group has its problems. Sometimes the problems are common to all three, but there are problems that are peculiar to each of those groups. The Bill, based on the Arton Wilson Report which is a report on an investigation into the first category, lumps all three together. I predict that just as the present powers of local authorities are de-
  776
  fective because laws which were intended to apply to dwelling houses are being applied to caravans, the powers of local authorities will be defective in future because this Bill, which is and intended to deal with residential caravans, will be applied to caravans of all categories when it becomes an Act.
  That is not an intelligent way of doing things. It would have been much better if the Government had waited a little longer, if they had given more thought to this problem—as Country Life suggests— and if they had brought in a comprehensive Bill dealing with each type of the three sections which I have enumerated, each with its own peculiar problems, and embodied in such a Bill a positive approach to the whole caravanning problem.
  The Bill is not an adequate solution to caravanning in Britain. Anybody who understands caravanning will agree with that. It is not an adequate solution to slap on a lot of regulations and restrictions intended for residential sites to sites of every kind.
  As many hon. Members have pointed out, a comprehensive Bill could also have dealt with tented camps. Anybody who has visited such camps will agree that, from a public health point of view, many tented camps are ghastly places. The danger to health is very much greater in those camps than on any caravan site that I have ever seen. As far as I can see, such camps still come under the inadequate provisions of the Public Health Acts.
  A comprehensive Bill could also have dealt with shacks. The hon. Member for Wembley, South (Mr. Russell) referred to the Northumberland coast. He knows that coast, and I am sure he will agree that miles of lovely sand dunes are disfigured by unsightly shacks which are built round a horse-drawn caravan which was parked there forty years ago. One sees a sort of shack bungalow with a kitchen, living rooms and all the rest built on to it. These things are a disfigurement to a great deal of our coastline. Unfortunately, this Bill does not deal with the tented camp or the collection of shacks. The definition of a caravan which appears in the Bill would rule out either of them.
  Having made those general comments, I wish to comment on the Bill itself. In

  777
  order to get it out of the way, I will comment first on Part II, which I think is good. I do not think it should be in the Bill. As I have said, I should have preferred a comprehensive Bill on caravanning. But Part II is in the Bill, and I think that it will be of great assistance to local authorities. I wish to support what was said by the hon. Member for Brierley Hill (Mr. Talbot) This will be my main comment.
  Generally speaking, I should be opposed to withdrawing the right of appeal to a court and substituting an appeal to the Minister. The independence of our British courts is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, safeguards of our liberty, and as a general rule I consider it unwise to withdraw the right of appeal to the courts. I realise that in this case the Minister acts in a quasi-judicial capacity and also that provision is made for a further appeal to the High Court. But, as a general principle, I consider this a retrograde step. I concede that in this case there exists the complication, which the Minister mentioned, of a possible double appeal to the Minister and to the court. But, as a general principle, I do not think it is a thing to be welcomed.
  Clause 26 (7) has been mentioned. It is the subsection which applies Section 290 of the Local Government Act, 1933, to appeals under this Bill giving Che right to make an order with regard to costs. I think that is new, and I am not sure how it will work out, but, on the face of it, it would seem to be a welcome provision.
  Clause 26 (4) has been referred to by two hon. Members. On balance, I feel that enforcement notices which deal with caravan sites concern not only the appellant but other people living in the area who may be affected. In my opinion, there should be some means of holding a public inquiry at which other people besides the appellant could express their views. There may be snags about this, but I should welcome some machinery to enable that to be done.
  Part I of the Bill deals with caravan sites, and I wish to support what was said by the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley). I believe that this Bill will impose quite unnecessary restrictions on the 30,000 to 35,000 touring caravanners whom I described earlier as the elite of the caravanning community.
  778
  I say that because they take great pride in their caravans. They are owner-occupied vans and the owners care for them very well. Some of the caravans are twenty years old, but they look like new and there are frequent competitions for the best preserved caravan. These caravans are never let to other people, and their owners conform to a high standard of social behaviour both when they are touring and when they are on a caravan site.
  Clause 2 (2, f) deals with what I might call night halts on sites of convenience. These are to be limited to the areas of rural district councils. Anyone who has towed a caravan, especially on the Continent but also in this country, will know how difficult it is to find a night halt near a large town. This, it seems to me, will rule out filling station night halts, the public-house back garden— a very satisfactory site from many points of view—and similar sites of convenience of that kind, simply because they are not within the area of a rural district council. Anyone who has towed a caravan in France knows that the Esso stations are the best caravan sites obtainable because they provide washing facilities, hot and cold water, toilets and the rest of it. Some in this country are equally good. Sites of convenience, whether they happen to be in rural district council areas or urban district council areas, are absolutely vital to the touring caravanner, and I ask the Minister to look at that problem.
  On the same theme, Clause 2 (2, c), the bit which gives exemption principally to members of the Caravan Club, seems to apply only to the sites owned or managed by the Club and there is no exemption to members of the Club on tour. The hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns has been a member of the council of the Club for years and years and knows what he is talking about. He said that there have been virtually no complaints about the behaviour of members of these exempted organisations. They conform voluntarily to very high standards and set the pattern for caravanners generally. I can see no earthly reason why this exemption, which they have had for, I think, ten years, should be withdrawn from them. I think it a most retrograde step. The combination of these two things would

  779
  make the position of the touring cara-vanner quite intolerable, so I hope that the Minister will look at that.
  Every caravanner who is proud of caravanning will welcome the attempt to impose structural standards, but not structural standards fixed by a local authority. We want national standards. The weakness of the Bill is that Clause 4 (2, b) gives the local authority power to lay down structural standards and Clause 4 (6) gives the Minister power to specify conditions, but the conditions there do not coincide with the conditions in the other provision. The Minister has no power to specify structural standards. I can only believe that that is an error and that that power was never intended to be omitted. It is were included, it would go a long way to meet the point of view which I am putting. Local authorities would be obliged to take into account model structural standards specified by the Minister. It is the district councils, not county councils who are to do this.
  The hon. Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Mr. de Ferranti) knows what he is talking about because he is a manufacturer. He said that it would cause chaos in the industry. The industry in Britain is the second largest in the world. It is second only to that in the U.S.A., and it plays an important part in the export trade. I think that the Common Market will knock a hole in that unless we do something about it, but you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, would rule me out of order if I made an extended reference to that subject. This matter of local authorities specifying standards could create chaos in the industry and do great injury to it. Caravanners and the industry want standards laid down, but they want national standards.
  I support what a number of hon. Members on both sides of the House have said about the exemptions for local authorities. Exemption under Clause 2 (2, b) from the need to acquire a licence for a local authority site has been referred to. I see no reason whatever why a local authority should be exempted. The local authority should set the standard. It should be the first to submit itself to its own standards and it should be seen to submit to its own standards. I hope that the Minister will think again about that provision. Local
  780
  authority sites could set the standard for the whole of the sites throughout the country if they are really good. Most of them are good, but some are not. I see no reason why they should be excused from having to obtain site licences.
  My fourth comment, and here I am a little in the dark, is on the existing use rights under the 1947 Act.
  It seems clear to me that these sites, or many of them, are in great danger of being closed. Many of them have operated quite satisfactorily for twenty or thirty years. I should regard it as most unjust if sites of this kind were to be closed, particularly as there is no provision for compensation. It is common justice that if a licence is given for only a short time, or if there is no licence, compensation should be provided. The Minister said that if a discontinuance certificate were issued there would be compensation.
  If the number of vans were to be drastically reduced under Clause 16, a site operator's income would be reduced accordingly. I do not agree that all site operators are wicked exploiters. I know many of them throughout the country who are tremendous caravan enthusiasts. They are in the job because they are enthusiasts and they give tremendous help to caravanners of all kinds. No doubt there are some exploiters, but this does not apply to all of them. If in the new law Parliament deprives a site operator who is doing a job of a considerable part of his income, he certainly should be compensated.
  Clause 18 gives a local authority power to provide sites or to acquire existing sites. That is a good thing. It is significant that the hon. Member on the Government side who, probably, has more local authority experience than any other hon. Member opposite—the hon. Member for Brierley Hill—forcibly supported the granting of powers of compulsory acquisition to local authorities in this respect.
  Local authorities are given the power to open or to acquire sites, but why do we not lay upon them the duty to provide sites? In opening the debate, the Minister said that the Bill probably would not result in many local authority sites being established. It seems to me that the Bill will result in quite a number of sites being closed. We impose upon

  781
  local authorities the duty to establish other institutions. The Education Act, 1944, places on local authorities the duty to establish schools in sufficient number, of sufficient diversity and so on to meet the needs of their locality, and I do not see why we should not place upon local authorities the duty to establish sites where they are needed.
  The Minister will bear in mind the Egham case in which the local authority invoked the whole majesty of the High Court and obtained an injunction, but, even armed with that injunction of the High Court, the local authority could not get out the resident caravanners until an alternative site was provided. That is the kind of thing I had in mind when I pleaded for a more positive approach to caravanning.
  There is an increasing number of people who prefer to live in caravans. The Economist carried out an investigation and estimated the number of resident caravanners at about 150,000. It was expected that this number would decrease as the provision of housing increased, but that later, towards 1970, it would increase again as the proportion of retired people in the population rose. An increasing number of retired people are attracted by the caravan as a cheap and easy place in which to live.
  First, therefore, we have an increased number of people who prefer to live in caravans; secondly, 3 million people spend their holidays in caravans and, thirdly, probably 35,000 people tow their vans around the country. This number is certain to increase as the number of motor cars increases. I should be delighted if every family owned a motor car. It is a commendable and laudable aim for a family to try to get a motor car and to get out into the country. For this reason, the number of vans being towed around the country is bound to increase. For these three reasons, many more caravan sites will be required over the next few years. The Bill, however, will close some sites—at least, I hope that it will—and will reduce the size of certain sites.
  A duty should be placed upon local authorities to provide sites where they require them. The trouble is that, in areas where the need its greatest, the anti-caravan complex among local authorities is greatest also. Caravanning has
  782
  reached such proportions that local authorities must face up to their social responsibilities. There is a social need for caravan sites, and if private enterprise cannot provide them, local authorities must fill the gap.
  I was delighted to hear what the Minister said on duration and conditions. I congratulate him on the stand he has taken on this. Obviously, if a site licence is given for only a short period, the whole purpose of the Bill will be defeated. The purpose of this Part of the Bill is to improve standards of caravan sites, but if permission is given for only five years, or even for ten years, no site developer can be expected to spend the requisite amount of capital on the site. I tried to obtain a figure, and I believe that it costs about £100 per stand to develop a site up to decent standards, the sort of standards which I hope will be required for residential sites under the Bill. Site developers must be given a long period of tenure of their sites. I hope that the Minister will see that that is the case.
  The Minister, by his power to specify model conditions, can influence conditions considerably throughout the country, particularly as there is a right to appeal to the magistrates' court, and the magistrates' court is obliged to take into account the model conditions. I appeal to the Minister not to make the conditions too onerous and not to try to impose the same conditions for sites of all kinds. I believe that the residential site does not require the same sort of conditions as what I would call a "summer" site.
  Again, it varies according to the area. I had a caravan for many years on a very remote spot on the Northumbrian coast. There was not a water closet within miles of the site, yet I cannot imagine a more delectable and pleasant site than that. So there must be some flexibility in the conditions specified by the Minister and laid down and imposed my district councils, both with regard to the type of site and to the locality.
  I have strong views on the question of colour, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lons-dale. I think, as does the hon. Member, that it would be a great mistake to insist on uniformity. I have heard people advocate that all caravans in the

  783
  country should be painted green. That is quite wrong. I do not know if all hon. Members recollect what happened during the war. Caravan owners asked the Government whether they should camouflage their caravans. They were told, "No", because the English countryside has dots of white patches, light patches and cream patches all over it. That is a feature of the English countryside.
  The hon. Member for Morecamibe and Lonsdale referred to the Lake District, which I know very well. He will recollect that the whitewashed cottage is to be found all over the Lake District. If one looks at the distant landscape one will see whitewashed cottages here and there all over the place. There is no earthly reason why cream-coloured caravans should not be integrated into the landscape, provided that they are properly sited and conform to the contours of the land, and so on. I could not agree with the hon. and learned Member for Kensington, South, who advocated, I take it, keeping caravans out of the National Parks. I think that that is one of the places where they should be.
  In conclusion, I believe that in the mechanised, high-pressure world in which we live today, man's greatest need beyond the bare necessities is from time to time to recreate himself, his body, his mind and, indeed, his soul, by a return to the simpler life of the countryside, by a return to the soothing timelessness of the seashore, by getting out of the city anthills in which most of us spend our lives. I believe that anything which is conducive to this should be welcomed and assisted by public policy. Since the war the modern caravan movement, apart from providing pleasant and satisfying homes for about 150,000 people, has enabled millions of people to do just this—to get out into the fresh air into the recreating atmosphere of the countryside.
  This great movement will go on. It should not be halted; indeed it cannot be halted, and it should not be sterilised by arid restrictions and controls alone, without any positive policy. Side by side with these admittedly necessary restrictions which are shown in Part I of the Bill, I believe that there should be purposeful guidance and encourage-
  784
  ment by public policy, both nationally and locally. If this Bill, which we all welcome, is to be accompanied by such a policy, I think that a major contribution will be made to both the physical and the spiritual well-being of Britain.
  9.21 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Sir Keith Joseph): I should like to join with the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central (Mr. Short) in congratulating my two hon. Friends who addressed the House for the first time today. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington, South (Mr. Roots), whose modesty does him credit, made a speech which the House quite clearly enjoyed. It was lucid, cogent and constructive, and I shall have occasion to refer to the contents of it again during my own speech. My hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Bourne-Arton) made an equally distinguished beginning in a witty form which those of us who heard him will long remember. He made a contribution to which I shall refer again in a moment.
  If I may, as a complete newcomer myself, address the nomad, the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central, I should like to say that I thought his speech, the first which he has delivered from the Box, a most encouraging debut, full of constructive and well argued points, and I certainly cannot complain that he has not given me enough to reply to.
  Both parts of the Bill which the House has been discussing emerge from the Arton Wilson Report, which has so rightly been praised by all who have referred to it, and the fact that they both emerge from this Report is my answer to the main complaint of the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central. He called the Bill a Siamese Bill, because it is composed of two parts. That is quite so, but I hope that the House will recognise that the constructive approach of the first part to caravans would be ineffective were it not for the improvements in the enforcement of the planning law contained in the second part. Both these chapters of the Bill emerge clearly from the recommendations of Sir Arton Wilson.
  The debate we have had today has shown a most gratifying measure of

  785
  agreement on both sides of the House for the general principles and purpose of the Bill. There are, of course, in the minds of many hon. Members, and emerging from many of their speeches, reservations and differences in detail which it will be a pleasure to discuss and hammer out in Committee. I think that the general agreement is a significant recognition of the part which the caravan plays in the life of the community today, and a recognition of the need for an effective instrument of control and development under the Town and Country Planning Acts.
  As my right hon. Friend said in opening the debate, the caravan, for all its mobility, has come to stay. I do not intend to go over the figures which have been brought out in many speeches today, but the fact is that caravans provide homes for thousands of families and have brought holidays in the country and by the sea within reach of a very large and growing number of people. It is probably not unreasonable to say that the caravan is for many people today what the week-end cottage was for a previous generation.
  My hon. Friend the Member for the City of Chester (Mr. Temple) made a most interesting analysis of the current position, and a rather intimidating glimpse of the trend to come, and has given us something to think about in the speed of growth of this modern industry. Today is not the occasion for me to go into the implications of the use of land or the volume of land to be released, of which he spoke.
  It is true, as Sir Arton Wilson made clear, that most caravan dwellers would prefer to live in houses, and that most caravan dwellings, other than those of retired people, tend to concentrate in the areas of industrial expansion. The hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. C. Hughes), in a speech to which I shall return many times, stressed the implications for housing policy of this undoubted fact, and, of course, the Government recognise this.
  Houses are being built in large numbers in such areas of growth, and I am sure that the House will recognise that families that occupied caravans, shem-selves change their dwellings quite frequently; that is to say, there is a constant turnover of the actual individuals dwelling in them, as large numbers of
  786
  them save enough money or get to a situation in life in which they can afford to buy or rent the homes that they desire. It is, of course, also true, as i am sure the hon. Member for Anglesey will agree, that the areas of expansion, or some of them, tend themselves to shift as growth moves from one industry to another. So much by way of introduction.
  Part I of the Bill is designed to secure that the caravan, whether for holidays or as a home, has its proper place in the community. We want to see that the caravan sites are properly located, and we also want to ensure that people who, for one reason or other, choose to live in caravans can do so in pleasant and healthy conditions. Although, at first sight, the Bill may look a little forbidding, with its references to licences, permissions and penalties, I think that the House recognises that its real purpose is positive and constructive. It represents a new deal for the local authorities as well as for the caravan dwellers. It will give local authorities more effective powers of control than they have hitherto possessed, and will also enable them to deal in a constructive manner with caravan problems in their areas.
  I should now like to deal with some of the points raised on Part I. A large number of hon. Members spoke of details on Clause 2, which provides for exemptions from licensing requirements. The hon. Member for Anglesey was concerned lest Clause 2 (2, a) might entitle a caravan site to be set up within the curtilage of a dwelling-house. I would reassure him that any caravan that is to be exempt in such circumstances must be enjoyed incidentally to the occupation of the dwelling-house. If there were the least smack of commercial use, or any suggestion of a caravan site, such a user of the site would be an offence against Clause 1, as being not incidental to the occupation and enjoyment of the dwelling-house.
  The hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Deer), in a tribute to travelling showmen which I should like, from personal knowledge, myself to echo, referred to Clause 2 (2, e). He was concerned that though the exemption for caravan sites used by travelling showmen while on their travels is continuing, their winter quarters, with all the appertenances they acquire, lose exemption. I must tell

  787
  him categorically that this is so. The reason is that whereas, before the Bill was introduced, individual caravans were exempt by reason of the people who used them, the control is now no longer on the caravans, but on the site occupier and the site used by that site occupier as a caravan site.
  That being so, there seems to be no reason why travelling showmen, predicting their regular need for winter quarters, should not be able—in the context of the good will which we hope that the Bill will lead to—to make their application for planning permission and, in due course, for site licences, just as everyone else will do. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree that if the Bill produces the good will that most hon. Members seem to think it will, there should be no difficulty about travelling showmen's winter quarters.
  Other hon. Members have been concerned that local authorities, in their use of caravan sites, are themselves not subject to site licensing. The fact is that in the Bill we are relying so much on local authorities that it seems absurd to require that they should licence themselves. Nevertheless, I am sure that my right hon. Friend will be willing to look at this again in Committee, and perhaps we may be able to make it an obligation on the local authorities, in conducting any caravan sites of their own, to bear in mind any model standards that my right hon. Friend may issue.
  We come to the bigger subject of Clause 2 (2, c) and 2 (2, f), subsections which have tended to be confused by some hon. Members. In subsection (2, c) organisations which apply to my right hon. Friend for a certificate of exemption—and they will largely be the same sort of organisations as are exempt under previous legislation—will be entitled to secure exemption for sites occupied and supervised by them. Hon. Members will see that the concentration is still on the control of the site occupier rather than on individual caravans.
  Clause 2 (2, f) deals with the much more casual traveller, and in this case there is exemption for not more than three caravans for not more than 28 days in an area of not less than five acres in a rural district council's area. The hon. Member for Anglesey rightly said
  788
  that, as drawn, the "five acres" is a very vague concept, but I am sure he will agree that there has to be some limit, otherwise there would virtually be exemption for every space of land on which a caravan could be put. We can look at this point again in Committee, but I remind the House that under Clause 3 (2) the person applying for exemption for his site for this purpose can be required by my right hon. Friend to give complete details of the area and of the limit of the five acres which he has in mind, so that the vagueness of which the hon. Member for Anglesey spoke need not occur.
  The fact is that hon. Members who have complained that travellers will be confused because they will not know whether they are in a rural district council's area are forgetting that control in the Bill is not on the individual caravanner, but on the site occupier; and the site occupier can rapidly discover whether the site which he wants to let to an occasional travelling caravanner is in a rural district council's area. If he exhibits a notice saying that he can house one, two, or three caravans on a five-acre site for no more than 28 days, no caravanner who obeys that notice and accepts that implied invitation can be punished under Clause 1 in any way whatever. Any offence which is caused by any excess over 28 days or any crowding of caravans falls clearly on the site occupier.
  Mr. Short: But we do not look for signs; we look for a cow and a white gate. At any rate, that is my experience. In nine cases out of ten it is not a site at all, but an ordinary farmyard into which we go. The hon. Member's argument, therefore, does not apply.
  Sir K. Joseph: In as much as cows are occasionally found in an urban district council's area, the hon. Member may be misled.
  In the change from exempting individual caravans or caravan members of exempt organisations to a policy of exempting the site occupied and supervised by exempt organisations, no reflection whatever is intended on the conduct and behaviour of the members of previously exempt organisations. I am sure that hon. Members will accept that assurance. The suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Angus, North

  789
  and Mearns (Sir C. Thornton-Kemsley) that exempt organisation should be able to secure exemption for individual sites is precisely what I hope the Bill achieves. I think that that will satisfy him.
  The next question which has been frequently raised is whether, under Clause 3, local authorities should be bound to issue site licences if the applicant for a site licence already has a planning permission. In many cases, local planning authorities and local authorities are identical bodies. Nevertheless, it remains true that many are not. If land is adjudged by the local planning authority as suitable for use as a caravan site, after considering all the implications of that decision, the Government do not think that the applicant should be frustrated by the local authority being able to refuse that particular use of the site.
  This is not the occasion for me to enter into planning permission questions and the way in which it is given. My hon. Friend the Member for Wembley, South (Mr. Russell) rightly drew attention to the evils of decisions made in secret without the local residents having knowledge of what is going on. But my right hon. Friend cannot possibly intervene in these essentially local matters unless there has been a grave error or a quite clear lack of consideration of local issues. My right hon. Friend will bear in mind, however, the need for stressing on local planning authorities the importance of ensuring publicity for decisions when the opportunity arises.
  To return to the subject of caravans, it is my right hon. Friend's view that local planning authorities, in considering applications for caravan sites, should consult the local authority concerned if there is any doubt whatever about the availability of services. I hope that this will be some comfort to my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington, who raised the point very clearly. My right hon. Friend will be giving his views to local authorities and local planning authorities by way of a circular on this matter. I stress, however, that local authorities retain, by Clause 4, the right to impose conditions and have complete power to protect the public health and all other aspects of the public interest which are set out in Clause 4.
  790
  I would draw the attention of the House to the analogy that all this bears to the situation of somebody seeking planning permission for building houses. If this planning permission is given for a particular site, the local authority concerned cannot frustrate that planning permission by saying, "You shall not build houses here", but it can regulate by byelaws the way in which they are built. The situation is identical here, where the local planning authority gives planning permission and the local authority has to accept that as general permission to develop a site for that purpose but can control it under Clause 4 by way of conditions.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell), who is not now present and who has explained that he had to leave for another engagement, asked whether the numbers of caravans could form part of the conditions. The answer is "Yes", because in Clause 4 (2, a) the word "number" is clearly inserted. It could still be also true that planning permission itself might include a reference to numbers as well.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) referred to roads. Conditions can be made to cover roads on the site, but not roads outside the site, as he will well understand. There has been some confusion about standards. Some hon. Members seem to have hankered for my right hon. Friend to lay down, as it were, national regulations. I very much agree with the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central that any such system would be far too rigid for the infinite variety of sites and all the variety of purposes for which caravans are used. Our purpose is to issue model standards which local authorities will be required to consider when framing their conditions under Clause 4.
  The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross), who has also apologised for having to be away from the Chamber, spoke of the danger of shacks escaping control, but under Clause 4 (2, c) there is a condition of control for other structures which, I think, covers the point. Several hon. Members have asked me about the construction of caravans. If we were to lay down in the Bill conditions about the

  791
  construction of caravans it would turn it into a totally different Bill and involve a totally different matter. It would be a Bill for controlling manufacture.
  Clause 4 (2, b) deals with caravans in a bad state of repair—the slum caravan —and will allay the fears expressed by the hon. Member for Newark about superannuated horse-boxes and disused buses, but I take seriously the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Mr. de Ferranti), my hon. Friend the Member for Brierley Hill (Mr. Talbot) and the hon. Member for Newcastle-on-Tyne, Central that too much variety in caravan construction can be ruinous for cost and productivity in their case as with anything else. My right hon. Friend intends to explore the possibility of devising, after consulting the manufacturers, national standards of construction, perhaps in the form of a British standard.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Darlington raised the relevant point of overcrowding. The Bill leaves in force Section 268 of the Public Health Act, 1936, under which the local authority may deal with overcrowding in moveable dwellings as a statutory nuisance.
  Now I come to Clause 11, and the problem of existing sites. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Anglesey asked whether six months would be long enough. I would point out to him that ever since the publication of the Bill local authorities have been able to start considering what they are going to do about existing sites, and, although we can discuss the matter in Committee, I think he may find that six months will be adequate.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South raised two questions on the running down policy set out in Clause 16. He agreed that this policy safeguards the families who dwell in caravans on these sites, but feared that it would prejudice the interests of the site operators concerned. It definitely will. The only site operators who can be concerned in this case will be those who have no planning permission. As such, they have only to expect, as planning enforcement is improved under the Bill, that if they do
  792
  not get planning permission their use of caravan sites will be a strictly limited one.
  With regard to those people who have been worried about sites with existing user rights, I would point out that if any caravan site has planning permission, either express or by existing user, then the only way in which it can be suppressed as a caravan site is through a discontinuance order, which carries with it the right to compensation.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South also asked whether, in this case, the appeal in the running down of a site would be to the Minister or to a court. He said that if the running down conditions were part of the planning permission the appeal would be to my right hon. Friend, but if the running down conditions were part of the site licence the appeal would be to the magistrates' court. Probably this is one of the rare cases when planning permission might suitably be given for a limited period, and be given with a maximum number of caravans allowed within it. So the tapering provisions of Clause 16 may equally well be applied under the planning permission as under the site licence.
  I now turn to the questions that have been raised about the rights of local authorities to establish caravan sites of their own. My hon. Friends the Members for Morecambe and Lonsdale, for Wokingham and Wembley, South have expressed fears lest these should be abused. I am sure that they would all agree that there could well be circumstances where a local authority might need to run a site of its own. As an instance, an unsatisfactory site may have to be run down and the householders on it may have to be rehoused.
  Of course, they will agree that local authorities can take powers now to run caravan sites under Private Acts. The Bill only gives to all local authorities a power which any local authority has been able to claim for itself. Of course, any local authority starting a caravan site would need planning permission from the local planning authority. While it may be true, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham said, that some local authorities have been running sites which have not been altogether satisfactory, I remind him that there have as yet

  793
  been no model standards to set a pattern of conformity for local authorities or any other caravan operators. As for those hon. Gentlemen who fear that compulsory purchase powers might be used too widely, I assure them that no compulsory purchase can be effective without the permission of my right hon. Friend.
  I now turn to a Scottish point. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) asked why the Bill is in its present form, with only Part I referring to Scotland. The reason is that, as he recognised, tourism is growing, and a measure to regulate the establishment and operation of caravan sites would, therefore, be of advantage to Scotland. The same is not true of Part II of the Bill, because in Scotland the existing provisions for enforcing planning control have not given rise to the same difficulty as in England.
  Mr. Ross Mr. Ross rose—
  Sir K. Joseph: I am sure that the hon. Member will excuse me. I am not a Scottish expert. Perhaps his point can be raised on another occasion. I am not being discourteous, but I might not be able to answer him adequately.
  Some hon. Members expressed the fear that the Bill might have some sinister implications for the green belt. This was raised by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington, South, my hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South, and the hon. Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer). If caravans were to be allowed in any number in a green belt, it would be a departure from the development plan, from the land use prescribed, and would automatically go to my right hon. Friend, by whom all the issues would be considered. Nothing in the Bill—and I say this categorically—in any way alters the green belt policy of the Government. We stand as firmly as ever by the policy of preventing all unnecessary intrusions into it.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale stressed that providing a decent site layout and holiday provision for caravans may sometimes justify giving permission for caravans in areas of considerable natural beauty. I am glad that he represented, as did the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central, the other side of the story.
  794
  The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central, raised a rather worrying point which many of us have read about in the Press. That is the story of the development at Ockley, in the Dorking and Horley rural district, where a number of sites were sold off to people as weekend or play sites. The vendors never claimed that there was planning permission to use the land as caravan sites, but they did say that the possibilities of using a rural site for recreational purposes without planning permission were considerable. The Article 4 direction, confirmed by my right hon. Friend, reduced these possibilities. The notice referred to by 'the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central was a large one put up by the rural district council and the real trouble in this case was not that of a caravan site or an enforcement order, but human nature. Some people are naturally gullible or hopeful. They buy land without proper researches or safeguards and, of course, there are always sadly, "sharks" ready to take advantage of that.
  The Bill will make it more difficult to use land in contravention of planning control and may, therefore, reduce the chances of the "sharks" in future. But it cannot provide that people should never buy castles in Spain. I can only emphasise that before anybody buys land he should take legal advice.
  I come now to Part II of the Bill, enforcement notices. Clause 26 covers land use, land operation and development and not just caravans. At the moment, there is a dual system of resisting an enforcement notice—that is to say, by way of planning application to the local authority, followed by an appeal to the Minister, and simultaneously a right of appeal to the magistrates' court, and so on, up the system of courts.
  In disingenuous hands, this dual system, as all Members have agreed, has lead to a very great deal of abuse. Clause 26 replaces that by a single appeal to the Minister. Only one hon. Member, the Member for Brierley Hill, has spoken in favour of retaining the dual system. He agreed that planning decisions under Clause 26 are rightly in the Minister's hands, but he argued that all other issues in Clause 26 should be left for the courts.

  795
  Questions of whether or not a development has permission, or is in breach of condition, or whether the requirements of the enforcement notice are excessive which at present fall to be determined by the magistrates' court, are primarily matters of fact rather than of law and are, therefore, suitable for an administrative tribunal. The remaining question, which now goes to the magistrates' court, is whether the operation or use of the land requires permission which may involve questions of law.
  These are precisely the questions which the Minister is frequently called upon to determine on appeals under Section 17 of the Act. Thus, there is really nothing revolutionary about the appeal jurisdiction which Clause 26 gives to my right hon. Friend. In so far as the Minister's decision on appeal involve questions of law, they will be subject to review by the High Court under Clause 27. The hon. Member should note in addition that, of course, the parties have a right to be heard by my right hon. Friend's inspector under Clause 26 (4).
  The hon. Member for Anglesey was concerned lest there might be a vexatious litigant. I point out to him that Clause 26 (7) provides for my right hon. Friend to impose costs on any such vexatious litigant. It is quite true that Part II of the Bill would be completely frustrated, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington, South and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central made plain, if delays were too long in deciding planning applications and I assure the House that my right hon. Friend is quite prepared to make special arrangements, if necessary, to make sure that that does not occur.
  The hon. and learned Member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. A. J. Irvine) asked whether it would not be futile to provide for appeal to my right hon. Friend under Clause 26 (1, a) if he had just rejected a planning application from the same applicant, but I am sure that the hon. and learned Gentleman will realise that in this case it would not take long to dispose of the new application.
  My hon. Friend the Member for North Angus and Mearns raised an interesting point about giving notice of intention to owners of caravan sites. I remind him that Section 37 of the Town
  796
  and Country Planning Act, 1959, requires owners to be informed of planning applications, but, anyway, I should have thought that the use to which a site was put was something to be prescribed by the agreement between owner and tenant and it does not necessarily come into a Bill of this kind.
  Several hon. Members have inquired why the Bill does not cover tents. The fact is that, on the whole, people in this country do not live in tents all the year round. Tents can be packed away when not in use and it was not a tent incident which led to the Arton Wilson Report.
  Mr. Michael Stewart: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the definition of a caravan in Clause 23 (1) does not, in fact, cover tents, because surely a tent is a
  "… structure designed … for human habitation … capable of … being transported on a motor vehicle"?
  Sir K. Joseph: That is a nice point which we shall enjoy discussing in Committee, but if a tent is covered then we shall have to consider amending Clause 23 (1), because it was not intended to cover tents.
  I hope that I have dealt with most of the main issues raised by hon. Members during the debate. I can assure hon. Members that my right hon. Friend will most carefully study all the suggestions and comments which have been made. I know that he welcomes them and will welcome any further criticisms or ideas which may help us to improve the Bill. We all have the same objective—that caravan users should be able to expect decent conditions, that site operators who provide those decent conditions should have security of tenure and that local authorities should have effective planning control.
  While welcoming the Bill and praising its negative aspects, the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central complained that the Bill contained little of positive approach. I am sure that he and the House will agree that, without the goodwill of all concerned, which the Bill should help to secure and which can be based only on effective planning control, there will be no positive future for caravans for which he and all of us hope. As a firm basis for improving

  797
  the present situation of caravans and their prospects for the future, I very much hope that the House will give the Bill a Second Reading.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 38 (Committal of Bills).

  CARAVAN SITES AND CONTROL OF DEVELOPMENT [MONEY]
  [Queen's Recommendation signified.]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).
  [Major Sir WILLIAM ANSTRUTHER-GRAY in the Chair]
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for the licensing and control of caravan sites, to authorise local authorities to provide and operate caravan sites, to amend the law relating to enforcement notices and certain other notices issued under Part III of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, to amend section twenty-six of that Act and to explain other provisions in the said Part III, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament—

  (a) of any administrative expenses incurred by the Minister of Housing and Local Government or the Secretary of State in consequence of the passing of the said Act of the present Session, and

  (b) of any increase attributable to the provisions of that Act in the sums payable out of moneys so provided under any other enactment.—[Sir K. Joseph.]

  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow.

  HOTEL, INVERGORDON (LIQUOR LICENCE)
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Bryan.]
  9.55 p.m.
  Mr. John MacLeod: I am not raising this evening the wider issue against State management as I have on the Order Paper a Motion, which is signed by myself and a large number of my hon. Friends and Members of the Opposition, and which protests against the gross injustice which permits the State management areas to be treated differently from other districts in Scotland many years after the reason for bringing in State control has passed. I hope that further time will be given on another occasion in the House to discuss all these wider issues which would, of course, require legislation.
  [That this House resents the continuance of the State drink monopoly in Annan, Dingwall and Invergordon, which was created under the Defence of the Realm Act in 1916 to deal with a state of affairs which came to an end many years ago; and requests the Secretary of State for Scotland to amend the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1959, so that those burghs will be governed by the same licensing laws which prevail in the other 195 burghs in Scotland.]
  I welcome the opportunity to raise this individual case of the refusal to grant a licence to Mrs. Thomson, of the Sal-ford Hotel, Invergordon, after it had been agreed by the local licensing court, and, I understand, by the Secretary of State's own advisory committee, that a licence should be granted to Mrs. Thomson, she being considered to be a fit and suitable person to hold such a licence.
  I am not against the control of liquor or anything of that nature, but I certainly am against the complete monopoly by the State which exists in the Invergordon area of my constitency, and I am surprised that the Secretary of of State for Scotland should oppose the working of free enterprise in this instance. I am not talking for the brewers or any sectional interest tonight; I am talking on behalf of a small person of enterprise who has every right to acquire

  799
  this licence for the development of her hotel.
  I have had a letter from Mrs. Thomson's solicitor, enclosing one from the Scottish Home Department, dated 22nd February, 1960, refusing the licence which was applied for on 10th September, 1959—almost four months earlier. This seems to me, as the solicitor points out, a most intolerable delay. The letter from the Scottish Home Department ends:
  "After full consideration of the circumstances of the application, the Secretary of State regrets that he does not consider it a suitable case for the grant of his authority."
  I cannot myself think of any more suitable case for the granting of this licence to this lady under the circumstances. This surely makes nonsense of the local licensing courts. These courts are the democratic method which people have of getting these licences. In all other areas outwith State management districts in similar circumstances a licence would have been granted.
  Why has the Secretary of State used his right of veto against this licence? In a letter which the Scottish Licensed Trade Association sent to the Secretary of State the point is made that it would have been fairer if the Scottish Office had let Mrs. Thomson know, immediately the application was received— instead of waiting for four months—that there was little likelihood of her getting a licence. A licence has never been granted in this area.
  It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed. without Question put.
  Motion made and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Sharpies.]
  Mr. MacLeod: This would have saved Mrs. Thomson a great deal of the expense to which she went. I was pleased, as the Secretary of State would have been, to see what she had done to this small hotel to make it attractive to tourists coming into the area. She has done a great deal to bring it up to a very high standard.
  It may be argued that she took a chance and had no right to go on spending a large sum of money before the licence was granted, but it was a fair chance, which any enterprising business
  800
  person would have been prepared to take. After all, there had been full agreement from the local licensing court; there was only one other licensed hotel in Invergordon, which has a population of 3,450 and serves a wide agricultural area in the vicinity, and that other hotel—the State licensed hotel— was at the other end of the town. In my opinion, Mrs. Thomson had every reason to hope that a licence would be granted.
  In Invergordon it is rumoured that the State Management Board—the Secretary of State's own board—had agreed that the licence should be granted. I would ask my right hon. Friend to say whether or not that is true. If it is, it is a most extraordinary situation. It means that the Board which advises the Secretary of State agreed that this lady should get a licence. I sympathise with her and am very pleased to be able to voice this complaint tonight.
  Invergordon has for long been recognised as a development area. The town was made a State management district owing to the great influx of naval personnel during the First World War—forty-four years ago—for reasons which have long since disappeared. Since then the use of Invergordon by the Navy has steadily diminished, until it is now no longer a naval base. It is used simply for oiling ships at various periods when exercises are taking place in the area.
  I have consistently made the point, in regard to the whole area, that since it has not had the industrial development we expected, the tourist industry is of vital importance—of much greater importance than it would otherwise be; but on the one hand the Secretary of State is encouraging the tourist industry through Government action—he has set up the Fraser Committee, and praised the Tourist Board, and has made speeches encouraging the development of the tourist industry—and on the other he is helping to throttle and retard the development of the industry by refusing a licence in this case.
  I have here a letter from the Easter Ross Holiday Association, which is the type of body the Secretary of State for Scotland has been encouraging to help the tourist industry. The letter says:
  "At our Executive Committee meeting, held in Invergordon last night, the question of the

  801
  refusal by the Scottish Secretary to grant a licence to Mrs. Sarah Thomson of The Salson Hotel, Invergordon, was raised. Our members felt most strongly against this dictatorial action and I have been instructed to write to the Scottish Secretary, to you and to Mr. Hugh Fraser condemning this decision as a monstrous injustice. I feel sure you appreciate the efforts or the Scottish Tourist Board and affiliated bodies, such as our Association towards the promotion of tourism in the Highlands and that it must appear odd to you, as it does to us, that the Scottish Secretary, of all people, should hinder a natural development such as this."
  That is a fair accusation against the Secretary of State for Scotland.
  It is agreed by people of all political persuasions in the district that the grossest injustice is being done in this case. I stress that that feeling is held by people of all political opinions.
  During the season the State Management Board will not undertake wedding functions or similar parties and those who wish to hold such functions have to go a considerable distance outside the burgh. Again, every Thursday, which is a half day in Invergordon, the State-controlled hotel will not sell liquor. I have no complaint against the staff of the State Management Board. To be fair, these hotels have improved in the last few years, but during the summer seasons they cater—I am not arguing whether that is right or wrong—almost entirely for buses, and in the off-season they cater mainly for commercial travellers. They have a right to do that, but there are other interests in the area which ought to be considered as well, and it is for those other interests that Mrs. Thomson would cater and thereby develop the amenities which we need to help the tourist industry.
  There were many points in the letter sent by the Scottish Trade Association to the Secretary of State for Scotland. My right hon. Friend has read the letter. I need not, therefore, press the points made in it. The letter says that it seems intolerable that the Scottish Home Department will give no explanation why the Secretary of State has refused the licence in this case when the local licensing court has decided that it is necessary. I hope that my right hon. Friend will give an adequate explanation for that tonight.
  I ask my right hon. Friend to review this case again. I emphasise again that there is strong local feeling, from people of all political persuasions in the area,
  802
  about the refusal to grant this licence. I ask that the whole question of State management should be put into the remit of the Guest Committee which is looking into licensing laws. The Committee should be asked to report to the Secretary of State on the whole question of State management. If, in this instance, my right hon. Friend cannot immediately do away with the State management districts, I hope that he will at least allow competition in this area. This is part of the philosophy of the Government of which he is a member and I hope that tonight he will give some indication of Government policy in this respect.
  10.10 p.m.
  Mr. William Ross: The hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. John MacLeod) has built up a powerful case regarding the requirements of competition in areas where the monopoly is held by State-managed concerns. I do not know whether the Minister is aware that a measure of concern has been expressed in Ayrshire about events which took place in the district licensing court at Kilmarnock last week when a co-operative society in the area asked for a licence and was turned down.
  I am not suggesting that the nature of the applicant was a determining factor in that decision, but I wish to express to the Secretary of State the concern felt in one of the burghs about remarks made by a member of the court. I am not concerned about the result or that the application was by a co-operative society, but I wish to know what protection may be afforded to the public in respect of a statement that if the licence was granted, it would mean bread and beer instead of bread and butter. Is there any protection at all—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Sir William Anstruther-Gray): Order. I should like to ask the hon. Member whether he is satisfied that the Minister has control over these courts?
  Mr. Ross: They are set up under Scottish legislation.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That may well be, but it does not establish that the Secretary of State is responsible for how they act in a particular case.
  Mr. Ross: That may be true, and that is what I want to find out, whether there is any way to remedy the position

  803
  in respect of remarks passed. It may be that there is no remedy, but I have taken this opportunity to deplore the fact that such a thing was said. I hope that the gentleman who made the remark will apologise to the town for what was, as he may consider on reflection, a slight which perhaps he did not intend.
  10.13 p.m.
  Mr. John Brewis: I wish to reinforce the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. John MacLeod) and ask on what principle the Secretary of State for Scotland refuses his consent to applications for licences. Having been a member of a licensing court, I know with what great care applications are considered by the justices. I know also that the police look into the character of an applicant and examine his premises. They often insist that food shall be supplied as well as liquid refreshment.
  There are State public houses not only at Invergordon but also at Annan. The take-over was made about forty-four years ago and it was clearly understood that at the end of hostilities consent should be returned to the local licensing authority. In Annan, a royal burgh with about 5,000 inhabitants, there is only one wine shop and only three public houses have off-licences. Last year a local grocer applied for a licence to sell spirits. The application was approved by the local licensing court and was confirmed on appeal. Yet again my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State refused to consent to this licence.
  It must be very galling to a local grocer when he sees grocers from neighbouring towns such as Dumfries and Lockerbie making deliveries in his town while the grocer himself in the town cannot supply such goods. Long ago, in 1623, this House declared that monopolies made the price of commodities at home expensive and lowered the quality. I do not want to accuse my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State of watering the beer, or anything of that sort, but I think it time that he was true to his Tory principles, not only in the denationalisation of steel, but in connection with State public houses, and that he realised that a licensing court with local knowledge very often knows better than the gentleman in Whitehall.
  10.17 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. John Maclay): I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. John MacLeod) foi giving me the chance to explain in full just what has happened in relation to this particular case of Mrs. Thomson and to say some words about the general principles lying behind it. I take it that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) realised that it would be very improbable that I should be able to deal with the matter he raised.
  Before dealing with the circumstances of Mrs. Thomson's application, I should like, first, to make it clear that the decision was taken in the light of existing State management policy. My hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty would have been out of order had he tried to bring into this debate the question of amending legislation, although he has referred to his Motion on that subject.
  Perhaps it would be in order, however, for me, since not all modifications would necessarily involve legislation, to say a few words about the future of State management. As I have already informed hon. Members, I have a reasonably open mind on the future of State management as a whole. I am very conscious of the relationship between State management and the development of the tourist industry. At present, I can do no more than repeat that this is a matter on which I have a reasonably open mind and that I shall consider the probable implications of what my hon. Friends have said.
  I should like now to deal with the procedure to be adopted by private individuals who propose to sell exciseable liquor in State management districts. They require two authorities, a certificate from a licensing court, and written authority from me. There is nothing in the Statute which governs the question whether an applicant should first apply to the licensing court or to me. If application is made to me, I consider it on its merits; so must the licensing court if application is made to it. It is entirely up to the individual applicant to decide what application he shall make and to whom and at what time.
  If an application is made to me, then, as is only proper, I take steps to ensure

  805
  before I decide upon it, that I am fully advised on all the considerations which might affect my decision. In relation to the Cromarty district, I have two advisory bodies. The first of these is the Cromarty Firth Local Advisory Committee, a body made up largely of representatives of the various local authorities—county councils, town councils and district councils—in the district and of the licensing courts. This body has the statutory function of assisting me in the exercise of my responsibilities in the Cromarty Firth State management district.
  The second body is the State Management Districts Council. This body covers England and Wales and Scotland. It consists of persons of experience in the liquor trade and in local government; it includes persons with knowledge of the running of the organisation in the districts and officials of the Scottish Home Department and the Home Office. Before I consider any application, therefore, it is considered by these two bodies and they advise me on it.
  In the case of Mrs. Thomson's application, my hon. Friend has suggested that because of the time taken to consider applications she was advised, on my behalf, to apply to the licensing court for a certificate and that, because of this advice and because of the time taken to reach my decision, Mrs. Thomson was encouraged to assume that this decision would be favourable and to spend money on the adaptation of her premises.
  During September and October my Department corresponded with Mr. Burns, a local solicitor who is the secretary of my local advisory committee in the Cromarty district, about the arrangements for a meeting of the committee to consider Mrs. Thomson's application. The official advice given to Mr. Burns was that it was open to the applicant to apply to the licensing court but that the decision to do so was entirely one for her.
  As to the time which has elapsed, consideration of Mrs. Thomson's application to me was deferred once she had applied to the licensing court. Hon. Members will, I think, agree that this was the proper course in view of the possibility that an action of mine might have been held to prejudice a matter
  806
  which was, as it were, sub judice before the licensing court. But after the grant of a certificate by the licensing court had been confirmed by the court of appeal, there was no unreasonable delay.
  The licensing appeal court confirmed the grant of a certificate on 18th November, the local advisory committee considered the application to me on 10th December and the State Management Districts Council considered it on 21st January. As my hon. Friend knows, my decision was communicated to Mrs. Thomson on 22nd February. It is difficult to move faster than that with the careful consideration that must be given to all these matters.
  Turning to the application itself, there is existing legislation in this matter which is consolidated in Part V of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1959, dealing with State management. A policy has been followed consistently by successive Secretaries of State since the commencement of the scheme during the First World War. The purpose of the schemes —I quote from the Licensing Act, 1921, in which they first took their place in an Act of Parliament—is
  "State management of the liquor trade".
  The principle underlying State management is, of course, disinterested management—the idea that the supply of liquor to the public should be in the hands of people who would not be tempted for financial reasons to encourage the consumption of alcohol. It would not be completely relevant, or, possibly, even in order, for me to comment on that principle this evening, except, perhaps, to say that it was to safeguard it that the Secretary of State was given statutory power to grant or withhold authority to private individuals for the sale of liquor in the districts in which Parliament has applied the State management scheme.
  It might be asked why, if Parliament wished to safeguard disinterested management, it gave me any power to permit private individuals to supply excisable liquor. There are, however, cases where such exceptions are justified. For obvious reasons, the power is primarily used in the case of clubs. My hon. Friend has referred to the development of the tourist industry, and this aspect of the question is also stressed in a letter which I have just received from the

  807
  Town Council of Invergordon. This is a matter of growing importance to the Scottish economy and, as I have frequently told the House, it is my policy, in conjunction with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, to do what I can to assist in the development of the tourist industry.
  In relation to State management policy, I have, as it is only proper for me to do, kept the policy under review in the light of developments on the tourist side. I do not want to go too far into this in the short time at my disposal. It is the case that the licensing law and the development of tourist facilities can be to some extent at odds with each other and that a balance must be struck between them. This is, however, a general question relating to licensing legislation, of which State management is only a particular example. I do not feel that I should develop it too much at this hour of the evening, in the short time that remains to me.
  My hon. Friend touched upon the question of introducing competition into State management districts. I can see no way of introducing competition as such into the districts which would not involve the jettisoning of the principle of disinterested management which I have tried to described.
  These, then, are the general considerations I had to apply in considering the case. In this case, I had the consideration before me that the licensing court had granted a certificate. In view of my hon. Friend's remarks and what he implied, I should make it clear that in relation to private applicants in State management districts the responsibilities of myself and of the licensing courts are equal and derive equally from Statute. The fact that I refused my authority where the licensing court granted a certificate does not mean that I have flouted the decision of the licensing court. The considerations before us were not identical. The court does not have to take into account the principle of disinterested management, though I must do so.
  I have noted my hon. Friend's remarks about the local advisory committee. It is very unusual for the advice given by these advisory committees ever to become public, but as my hon. Friend has referred in public to the fact that the local
  808
  advisory committee is rumoured to have advised the grant of a restricted type of facility in this case I should tell him that that rumour is correct, but I should state also that the second body to which I referred gave precisely the opposite advice. I repeat that it is very unusual for this to be make public, but it would be wrong for me, as the statement has been made already on the Floor, to have ignored it.
  What I was, in fact, advised was that there is a State management hotel comparatively close to Mrs. Thomson's hotel, and that the type of facility which Mrs. Thomson would have been able to provide was in no way substantially different from those being provided in the State-managed hotel. To have granted authority to Mrs. Thomson would have been incompatible with the principle of the Act, that in the State management district, apart from exceptional circumstances, the Secretary of State should be the sole supplier of liquor, and I could see no exceptional circumstances in this case.
  Mr. John MacLeod: Has the principle ever been departed from?
  Mr. Maclay: Yes. If I have time, I will tell my hon. Friend when it has been departed from, but I want now to cover one more point he made.
  I am aware that this decision has caused Mrs. Thomson considerable disappointment—I have some sympathy with her—and that she can legitimately feel that she has been prevented from improving the amenities of her hotel. But I am afraid—I must repeat it—that, standing the policy of State management, I had no alternative.
  My hon. Friend suggested also that I might refer the question of State management to the Guest Committee on the Scottish Licensing Laws. I cannot accept that suggestion, for this reason. The Committee has been set up to advise and inform the Government on specific licensing matters on which there is considerably more unanimity that the present law is wrong than on how it should be amended. It would hardly be appropriate to ask the Committee to inform me on the State management organisation, since the information is already in my hands. While, as I have already

  809
  made clear, the future of State management is a matter on which I have an open mind, I do not think that it would be useful to refer it to the particular Committee to which my hon. Friend has referred.
  My hon. Friend asked in his interjection a minute ago whether any exceptions had been made. As I said before, because of the needs of the tourist industry, I have felt justified in recent years in examining applications for my authority received from private individuals to see whether there were any circumstances in which I could properly grant my authority. I instance one case in the Gretna district, where I received an application from a private hotel. This hotel was in a tourist centre and catered largely for tourists. It was able to supply a type of facility which State management was not supplying in the neighbourhood and which it would have been impracticable for State management to supply. Accordingly, in that case I felt able to grant my authority, but I regret
  810
  that I simply could not find that the same conditions were present in the case which my hon. Friend has raised this evening.
  Mr. John MacLeod: Will my right hon. Friend allow me to make one last point? Mrs. Thomson caters almost entirely for the tourist industry at present, and she has to keep her hotel open all the year round. If she had a licence, it would enable her to cater fully for tourists in the summer.
  Mr. Maclay: I regret that I have not time to do more than say this. If my hon. Friend will read carefully what I have said, he will see the difference between the conditions which I had to consider in the case he has raised and the conditions which I had to consider in the case to which I have just referred.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Ten o'clock.

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NATIONAL FINANCE
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  Local Employment Act
  Local Employment Act
  Industrial Sites, United Kingdom (Overseas Publicity)
  Industrial Sites, United Kingdom (Overseas Publicity)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Foreign Seamen (Temporary Shore Leave)
  Foreign Seamen (Temporary Shore Leave)
  Impounded Vehicles, Metropolitan Police District (Collection)
  Impounded Vehicles, Metropolitan Police District (Collection)
  Imported Electrical Household Appliances
  Imported Electrical Household Appliances
  Accidents in the Home
  Accidents in the Home
  Drip-Feed Oil Heaters
  Drip-Feed Oil Heaters
  East Hubert Psychiatric Institution
  East Hubert Psychiatric Institution
  Elderly and Incapacitated People (Household Gadgets and Appliances)
  Elderly and Incapacitated People (Household Gadgets and Appliances)
  Prison Service Officers (Dartmoor)
  Prison Service Officers (Dartmoor)
  Children's Air Guns and Rifles
  Children's Air Guns and Rifles
HOUSING
  Open Fires (Conversion)
  Open Fires (Conversion)
HOSPITALS
  Royal Infirmary, St. Mary's and Royal Eye Hospitals, Manchester
  Royal Infirmary, St. Mary's and Royal Eye Hospitals, Manchester
NYASALAND
  Prices
  Prices
EMPLOYMENT
  Scotland
  Scotland
  Hospitals, Manchester (Consultants)
  Hospitals, Manchester (Consultants)
COAL
  Smokeless Fuels
  Smokeless Fuels
  EARL LLOYD GEORGE AND EARL OF BALFOUR (MEMORIALS)
  EARL LLOYD GEORGE AND EARL OF BALFOUR (MEMORIALS)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Hereford

CARE OF CHILDREN'S TEETH
3.4 p.m.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the unsatisfactory condition of our children's teeth, they will consider favourably supplying without charge a mug and toothbrush to all national school children.]
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, my noble friend's proposal seems to imply that the provision of Government toothbrushes and Government toothmugs would produce a dramatic improvement in the teeth of the children of this country and that the unsatisfactory state of children's teeth to-day is mainly caused by their failure to use these implements. Neither of these premises stands up to serious examination. The chief cause of dental decay in children is the large quantities of sweets and biscuits munched between meals. Moreover the provision of mugs and toothbrushes would have little purpose without supervision of their use, and this would inflict a serious problem of organisation upon teachers which the Government do not think they should, or should be asked to, undertake. Both the provision of equipment and supervision of its use are more properly, more conveniently and more effectively left as a parental responsibility.
The whole problem of the care of teeth is under review by the Standing Advisory Committee on Dental Health Education set up by my right honourable friends the Minister of Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland, and Her Majesty's Government would prefer to await any
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recommendations by that Committee on the proper care of teeth before coming to any decision on my noble friend's proposal.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his comprehensive Answer. I should like to ask him whether he is aware that my reason for asking the Question is that I was for two-and-a-half years chairman of the Inter-departmental Committee on Teeth and Dentistry in this country, and that I also have knowledge of the teeth of the Chinese. I hope that the Minister will go into that question. No nation has more lovely and beautiful teeth than the Chinese, and the children in the schools there all have a toothbrush What is called the Teviot Report proves conclusively that the health and also the endurance of children and adults benefit by the use of the articles I suggest. I hope the noble Lord will bring that before the Minister, and I ask him if he will do so.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, my right honourable friend does not need to be reminded that children's teeth are getting steadily worse and already have a higher incidence of decay than before the war. But the question is whether this is the right way of tackling the problem. Her Majesty's Government at the moment think it is not.

DERBYSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD MERTHYR): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Merthyr.)
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I rather understood that there were objections to this Bill. Have they all been withdrawn?
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I have been informed by the noble Lord who might have objected to this Bill that he no longer wishes to do so.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

NORTHAMPTON COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time. The remark that I made on the last Bill applies to this one also.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Merthyr.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

BUILDING SOCIETIES BILL [H.L.]
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to amend the law relating to building societies. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Earl St. Aldwyn.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL [H.L.]
3.9 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I rise to move that this Bill be now read a second time. Although your Lordships may think this Bill at first sight to be somewhat dry and technical, it does in fact deal with matters of considerable importance in the history of the law, and this has, I think, been recognised in the comments on the Bill which have appeared in the Press and elsewhere.
The Bill really falls into three parts, the first dealing with appeals to the House of Lords in criminal cases, the second with the law of contempt of court, and the third with certain amendments of the law relating to habeas corpus. I will deal shortly with each of these in turn.
Before I do so I think it might be helpful if I were very shortly to remind those of your Lordships who are not lawyers of the structure of criminal and civil courts and the appeals therefrom. Criminal cases can be tried summarily before magistrates in petty sessions or on
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indictment before quarter sessions or assizes. From petty sessions there is an appeal on fact to quarter sessions, and an appeal on law from petty sessions (or from quarter sessions sitting as an appellate body) to a Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division. From a verdict and consequent sentence on indictment, either at quarter sessions or assizes, there is an appeal to the Court of Criminal Appeal, which is composed of Judges from the Queen's Bench Division. From courts-martial there is an appeal to the Courts-Martial Appeal Court, which again is composed of the Judges of the Queen's Bench Division. Hitherto there has been an appeal from the Court of Criminal Appeal and the Courts-Martial Appeal Court to the House of Lords only on the fiat of the Attorney-General, on which I shall say a word in a moment. There has been no appeal from the Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division in a criminal matter, although, as I have said, the Judges are the same Judges of the Court of Criminal Appeal and of the Courts-Martial Appeal Court, however important the point at issue.
Civil cases may commence in the county courts, certain local courts or in any of the three Divisions of the High Court. From each of these there is an appeal to the Court of Appeal, and as your Lordships are probably aware, the Court of Appeal is selected from former Judges, usually from each of the three Divisions; and a Judge from the Chancery or Probate Divorce and Admiralty Divisions need not have seen a criminal case or imposed a sentence in his life. From the Court of Appeal there is an appeal to the House of Lords with the leave of either the Court of Appeal or the House of Lords.
So far as appeals in criminal cases are concerned, your Lordships may remember that the Court of Criminal Appeal was set up by the Criminal Appeal Act, 1907, in order, as I have indicated, to give a right of appeal to persons convicted on indictment. While the Bill for that Act was going through Parliament, a provision was added to give a further right of appeal to the House of Lords where the Attorney General certifies that the decision of the Court of Criminal Appeal involves a point of law of exceptional public importance and

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that it is desirable in the public interest that a further appeal should be brought. This provision is, of course, somewhat anomalous in that the Attorney General of the clay, who is a member of the Executive and may indeed himself have appeared for the prosecution before the Court of Criminal Appeal, is required to decide in a quasi-judicial capacity whether the case is one in which he ought to grant his fiat for an appeal to the House of Lords. I hope it is not merely as an ex-Attorney General that I say that the system has nevertheless worked well enough in the fifty years or more that have passed since the Court of Criminal Appeal was set up. In that time there have been some 22 appeals to the House of Lords in which matters of considerable importance to our criminal law have been decided.
Apart from this appeal on the Attorney General's fiat, there is no other right of appeal to the House of Lords in criminal matters. There is thus no right of appeal from the Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division in the many important types of criminal case which come before it, particularly on appeals by way of case stated from magistrates and quarter sessions. In these cases, as well as on criminal applications for habeas corpus and the prerogative orders—mandamus prohibition and certiorari—the decision of the Divisional Court is final, even though questions of law of considerable importance may arise on which it would be desirable to obtain the opinion of the highest Court in the land. The absence of a right of appeal in these cases was often regretted by my noble and learned friend Lord Goddard when he was Lord Chief Justice, and his words were echoed in a recent case, to which I shall have to refer again shortly, by his successor, my noble and learned Friend Lord Parker of Waddington, whom I am glad to see in his place this afternoon, and who has given me so generously of his help in the preparation of this Bill.
If there is to be a right of appeal from the Divisional Court, the question arises: what test is to be applied? For, clearly, some limitation must be imposed on the right of appeal if the House of Lords is not to be flooded with criminal appeals to an unmanageable extent. Then again, whatever test is applied, it ought to be
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the same for appeals from the Court of Criminal Appeal as from the Divisional Court.
This has led us to look again at the right of appeal from the Court of Criminal Appeal which was provided in 1907. I think it is important to remember that Parliament in 1907 intended that the decision of the Court of Criminal Appeal should normally be final, and that a further appeal to the House of Lords should be quite exceptional, as, indeed, the Act itself makes plain. An appeal on the fiat of the Attorney General would not, in any event, be appropriate to appeals from the Divisional Court, and the Government have decided that the time has now come to replace the appeal on the fiat by the new procedure made by the Bill. My right honourable and learned friend the Attorney General has asked me to say that he welcomes this proposal.
What we propose is that the machinery for granting leave to appeal should be in the hands of the Court itself, and that only those cases should go to the House of Lords which do, in the opinion of the Court below, raise questions of law of real importance. As I indicated, if leave to appeal is to be a matter for the Court itself, the present test no longer seems to be appropriate. Clause 1, subsection (2), of the Bill accordingly provides that an appeal is to lie only if the Divisional Court or Court of Criminal Appeal, as the case may be, certifies that a point of law of general public importance is involved.
This, of course, is wider than the test of "exceptional" public importance, which at present applies to appeals from the Court of Criminal Appeal. Once this test is satisfied, an appeal will lie if the Court below or the House of Lords gives leave to appeal. Not every case in which a point of law of general public importance is involved is necessarily one for the House of Lords, because the point may be so clear as not to require further argument, or it may be that the law has stood and been acted on for so long that it would not now be right to disturb it.
I have seen some criticism of the fact that the Bill does not give an appeal as of right—that is, without leave—in cases of habeas corpus, but I think this criticism is misconceived, though this is naturally a point which I shall be only

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too glad to consider at a later stage of the Bill. Here I will only remind your Lordships that leave is always required for any appeal to the House of Lords, and I think this must continue if the right of appeal is not to be abused. So far as habeas corpus is concerned, I cannot think of any case in which an applicant would wish to appeal except on a point of law, or that the Divisional Court would ever refuse a certificate in any case which was fit for appeal.
I need not now detain your Lordships with a description of Clauses 2 to 9 of the Bill which contain the necessary incidental and procedural provisions relating to appeals under Clause 1. These are all important matters, but they do little more than fill up the gaps in the existing law dealing, with appeals from the Court of Criminal Appeal and make corresponding provision for the new right of appeal from the Divisional Court. Clause 10, as your Lordships will see, provides for an appeal from the Courts-Martial Appeal Court corresponding to the appeal from the Court of Criminal Appeal, subject to a number of minor modifications which are needed in order to take account of the special position of a person who is appealing from the decision of a court-martial.
I now turn to the provisions of the Bill relating to contempt of court. Contempt may be either criminal contempt or civil contempt. Criminal contempt consists of words or acts obstructing or tending to obstruct the administration of justice. It may take the form of contempt in the face of the court, by insulting the Judge or refusing to give evidence; or of obstructing the parties or other persons engaged in litigation; or of written or spoken comment which interferes with the course of justice. Civil contempt or contempt in procedure consists of disobedience to an order of the court—as, for example, in connection with proceedings relating to wards of court. The great difference between civil and criminal contempts is that there is no right of appeal against an order made by the court in a case of criminal contempt.
As your Lordships probably know, this branch of the law has recently come in for a good deal of attention and criticism, largely on account of this absence of any
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right of appeal in cases of criminal contempt, but also on account of the way in which the law operates in cases where newspapers have published comment on pending proceedings, or where there has been some disclosure of information about proceedings which have taken place in chambers or otherwise in private and not in open court. As your Lordships know, my noble and learned friend Lord Shaw-cross has already introduced a Bill of his own on this subject which would give a right of appeal in cases of criminal contempt but which does not make any alterations of the substantive law in the way which the Government's present Bill now proposes.
Clause 11 of our Bill deals with the case of contempt committed by anyone who publishes or distributes any matter which is calculated to interfere with the course of justice in connection with proceedings which are pending before the courts or which are imminent at the time of the publication. Proceedings may be imminent where, for example, no one has yet been charged with a crime but an arrest is hourly expected. The present law is undoubtedly open to criticism to the extent that anyone who publishes comment in cases of this kind does so at his own risk and it may turn out that he has been guilty of contempt of court even though he had no idea, and could not reasonably have been expected to know, that proceedings were pending or imminent.
Clause 11 provides a new defence in cases of this kind for anyone who can show, first, that at the time of publication or distribution he did not know and had no reason to suspect that the proceedings were pending or imminent, or that the newspaper, or whatever it may be, contained offending matter, and—and I repeat "and"—that he had taken all reasonable care to find out what the position was. This defence is very similar to the well-known defence of innocent dissemination which is available under the law of libel to anyone who can show that he has been the innocent distributor of a book, newspaper or other publication containing some libel of which he was quite unaware. Under subsection (3) the burden of establishing the new defence will be on the defendant. This is only right, for we must do nothing to make it easier for people recklessly to publish

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anything, whether in a newspaper or elsewhere, which tends to interfere with a fair trial. The last thing we want in this country is trial by newspapers. I think, however, that those most closely concerned with these matters will find that the new clause gives them all the protection they can reasonably require.
Clause 12 deals with the publication of information about proceedings which have taken place in chambers or in private, a matter about which the present law is obscure. There has been a good deal of criticism of this and we do not think it right that the obscurity should be allowed to continue. The mere fact that proceedings may have taken place elsewhere than in open court is not in itself ally reason for treating the leakage of information as a contempt. The conditions in which courts might properly sit in private were laid down by this House in 1913 in the classic case of Scott v. Scott, to which we have paid close attention in framing Clause 12. What it comes to is that a mere publication of information is not by itself to be treated as contempt of court, except in cases relating to the welfare of infants or to persons suffering from mental illness; cases where the court sits in private, for reasons of national security; cases where the information relates to a secret process which is in issue in the proceedings, or, fifth; cases where the court has power to prohibit publication of information and expressly does so.
I was rather surprised that The Times this morning seemed to have some difficulty with regard to that last provision. I thought myself it was perfectly clear, because, as your Lordships will see, the paragraph in question makes it a contempt to publish any information of a kind of which the court has expressly prohibited publication, provided the court has power to do so. And the court's power to prohibit publication may derive from Statute—for example, Section 4 (3) of the Defence Contracts Act, 1958; from the rules of procedure of Mental Health Review Tribunals, made under Section 124 (2) (c) of the Mental Health Act, 1959, or from its own inherent powers—for example, where publicity would defeat the object of the proceedings. It seems clear that the words in parentheses in the paragraph, "having power to do so", are important
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to ensure that courts cannot turn publication into contempt merely by issuing a prohibition against it. I hope that that explanation will clear up a point that seems to have created some worry. Nothing in Clause 12 will have the effect of making something punishable as contempt of court which could not have been punished as contempt under the existing law.
I now come to Clause 13, which gives a general right of appeal in cases of contempt. This goes rather further than Lord Shawcross's Bill, for it deals with all cases of contempts, criminal con-tempts and civil contempts alike, and it also deals with the case of contempts committed before the Court of Appeal or Court of Criminal Appeal, as well as before the High Court or an inferior court. What we have done is to give a perfectly general right of appeal which will in most cases be to the Court of Appeal, but will be to the Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division in the case of an inferior court such as quarter sessions, which the Divisional Court is normally concerned to supervise. When the Court of Appeal or the Divisional Court is exercising appellate jurisdiction there will be a further and second appeal to the House of Lords on the same conditions as those provided by Clause 1, that is to say, where a point of law of general public importance is involved. On the other hand, where the Court of Appeal or the Divisional Court or the Court of Criminal Appeal decide for the first time on a question of contempt, there will be a general right of appeal, with leave, to the House of Lords. Your Lordships will see that by Clause 13 (4) so much of the subsection in Clause 1 as limits the right of appeal to points of law of general public importance does not apply here.
Your Lordships who are familiar with these matters will see that the Court to which an appeal is to lie in contempt cases has been chosen with a view to interfering as little as possible with the existing channels of appeal. I know it has been suggested that all appeals in cases of this kind should go direct to the Court of Appeal. I do not think this would always be appropriate, as, for example, in cases where the contempt has taken place before the Court of Criminal

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Appeal, and I believe that what we propose will be found to work satisfactorily in practice.
Here I should like to take the opportunity of saying that, while there has been considerable pressure for the provision of a right of appeal in cases of contempt of court, for reasons which I well understand and with which I sympathise—for no doubt it is unsatisfactory in principle that anyone should be undisputed judge in his own cause—I should be somewhat surprised if much use were made in practice of these new provisions. Contempt in the face of the court is a rare occurrence, and the judges must have power to punish it promptly where it occurs, but I do not think there has been any suggestion that in these cases they have acted harshly or oppressively. I believe that the points on which the present law of contempt is most open to criticism are those dealt with in Clauses 11 and 12 of the Bill, and that in the case of criminal contempts dealt with by the Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division—and it is cases of this kind which attract most attention—the relaxation of the law we are now proposing in favour of newspaper editors and others will make it much less necessary to rely on a right of appeal than might otherwise have been supposed.
It remains for me to deal with the amendments in the law of habeas corpus made by Clauses 14 and 15 of the Bill. These clauses deal with matters of some technicality, and I hope your Lordships will forgive me if I explain the background in some little detail. The writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is, of course, an extremely ancient remedy and ranks high in the history of our constitutional liberties. There is no need for me to-day to describe the part which it has played in helping to secure the supremacy of the rule of law. All I need say is that the existence of the right to have the legality of a person's detention tested by means of habeas corpus is as important to-day as it has ever been, and the operation of the writ is not, of course, confined to this country.
An application for habeas corpus may be either civil or criminal. It is criminal where the applicant is in custody under a sentence passed in criminal proceedings where the application is made in con
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nection with proceedings in which the applicant may be punished for an offence. This may be by either an English Court or by a foreign court where there has been a request for extradition. A civil application for habeas corpus may be made where anyone is deprived of his liberty otherwise than in criminal proceedings—for instance, where a child is detained by someone who is not entitled to his custody, or where it is desired to question the detention of someone suffering from mental illness.
The circumstances in which the right to apply for habeas corpus may arise received a good deal of attention recently in some litigation concerning a Mr. Hastings, who alleged that his conviction by the Crown Court at Liverpool was, for technical reasons, a nullity and that his detention in prison was therefore unlawful. His first application to the Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division, which was then presided over by my noble and learned friend Lord Goddard, was dismissed. Mr. Hastings thereupon applied afresh to another Divisional Court, this time presided over by the present Lord Chief Justice, my noble and learned friend Lord Parker of Waddington. The grounds of his application were exactly the same as on the previous occasion, but he alleged that an applicant for habeas corpus still retained the right submitted to have been conferred on him by the Act of 1679 to apply from one Court or Judge to another until he finds a Judge who is prepared to grant his application. The Divisional Court, after an exhaustive review of the law, held that this was no longer the case and that since the merger of the old Common Law Courts and the Court of Chancery in one High Court of Justice in 1873, an application which had been heard by one Court could not be renewed before another.
Undaunted by his failure before my noble and learned friend Lord Parker of Waddington, Mr. Hastings then went to the Divisional Court of the Chancery Division which confirmed the views expressed by Lord Parker of Waddington and his brethren. In the Chancery Divisional Court Mr. Justice Harman, as he then was, said:
"It is always sad to be stripped of any illusion and I, like. I expect, most lawyers, have grown up in the belief that in cases of habeas corpus the suppliant could go from judge to

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judge until he could find one more merciful than his brethren. That illusion was stripped from me when I read the report of the decision in the Queen's Bench Divisional Court last year in this very case."
In the Hastings cases the Courts were concerned only with the supposed right to apply from one Court to another during term-time when the Divisional Court was sitting. They were not concerned with the right to apply from one Judge to another, wherever he might be—whether at his house or on the golfcourse—when the Courts were not sitting. This, however, is a matter which ought not to be left in doubt, and subsection (2) of Clause 14 accordingly provides that once an application for habeas corpus has been made, whether in a civil or a criminal case, no other application may be made on the same grounds to another Court or Judge unless fresh evidence is brought forward in support of it. The subsection also provides that no such application is in any case to be made to the Lord Chancellor, thus abrogating the ancient rule enshrined in the Act of 1679. Applications to the Lord Chancellor are rare, but they do occur; indeed, my Lords, one was made to me some five years ago. In modern times, and in view of the change in the law which I have mentioned, applications to the Lord Chancellor are highly inconvenient, not only to me, and something of an anachronism; and I am satisfied that the liberty of the subject will not be injured by their disappearance.
The effect of Clauses 14 and 15 of the Bill read together is this. It will still be possible to apply for habeas corpus to a single Judge as well as to a Divisional Court. But in a criminal case a Judge sitting alone will not be able to refuse the writ but must, unless he grants the application—this, in effect, sets the man free—refer it to a Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division. From the Divisional Court both the applicant and the person concerned to uphold the legality of his detention will be able to appeal to the House of Lords under the conditions laid down by Clause 1; that is to say, if the Divisional Court certifies that a point of law of general public importance is involved, and leave to appeal is given by the Divisional Court or by the House of Lords. This right of appeal for either side in a criminal case of habeas corpus is entirely new, and gives
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effect to the desire expressed by the Lord Chief Justice and the other Judges in the recent Hastings cases. In the case of civil applications for habeas corpus—which, as I have said, may arise where someone is concerned to question the detention of an infant or a mental patient—the applicant for habeas corpus has always had a right of appeal from the Divisional Court to the Court of Appeal and thence, with leave, to the House of Lords. We now propose to give a right of appeal to the other side as well, for questions of law of consideraable importance, for example, to the working of our social services (noble Lords who were interested in the Mental Health Bill will remember that we discussed that sort of point at that time) may easily arise in these cases which ought to be reviewed and settled by the House of Lords. But in a civil case, unlike a criminal case, the applicant for habeas corpus will not be liable to be again detained if the decision on appeal goes against him. This is the result of subsection (3) of Clause 15.
My Lords, I am sorry to have had to deal with this matter at such length, but your Lordships will see at once how important it is, and I hope the House will agree that the changes we propose do what is necessary to fill out the gaps and remove the anomalies in this branch of the law The only other Clause I need mention to your Lordships is Clause 16. The effect of this is that where a conviction before a magistrates' court or quarter sessions is brought up for review by the Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division, that Court, if it finds that the court below has passed a sentence which it had no power to impose, will be able to pass the right sentence instead of quashing the conviction, which it has to do at present. The present state of the law was the subject of frequent criticism by my noble and learned friend, Lord Goddard, when he was Lord Chief Justice, and I do not think that any of your Lordships will quarrel with what we propose.
I hope that I have said enough to convince your Lordships that this is a Bill of real importance in the development of the law, and that it is in full accordance with the spirit of liberty which has always characterised the common law. The Bill proposes considerable changes. It gives a right of

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appeal for the first time in the event of the many important criminal matters coming before the Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division. It deals, virtually for the first time in an Act of Parliament, with both the substantive and procedural aspects of the law of contempt, and finally it amends the law of habeas corpus which was last considered by Parliament in the year 1816.
I have no doubt that the Bill needs, and will receive, close scrutiny in Committee, and I sincerely hope that that will be the case. I believe, however, that it represents a considerable improvement in the machinery of justice, and I am glad to see that it has been described as being replete with liberal provisions relating to the criminal law. It is in that spirit that I commend the Bill to your Lordships, and I beg to move that it be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
3.43 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, the House will appreciate the learned and erudite manner in which this Bill has been introduced by the noble and learned Viscount and will also agree with him that the Bill is a matter of great importance. Her Majesty's Government are to be congratulated on the speed with which they have dealt with a number of subjects which, in recent months and years, have given rise to some criticism and dissatisfaction. Whether in fact the Bill does all that was hoped for is a point with which we shall have to deal in the further stages, as the Bill proceeds.
The noble and learned Viscount devoted a considerable amount of time at the outset of his remarks to the general question of appeals, and it is a fact that appeals are an important, indeed a vital, feature of British law and administration. That allows for the possibility of human fallibility and error in our institutions and in our personal judgments; and from experience there is no doubt that appeals have been shown to be necessary. I have had considerable personal experience of appeals against decisions of local authorities and I have found that those authorities were wrong—at least in the view of the appellant
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tribunal—in about one case in three. It can be said that if there had been no appeal there would have been a substantial injustice in that number of cases.
I do not know how often the courts themselves are wrong. My guess would be that about one case in four is upset on appeal. I may be wrong, but I believe I am not very far out. If that is so, it indicates the great importance to the subject of being allowed to put his case before a higher tribunal; and, if I am right, in one case out of three, four or five his judgment is confirmed on appeal. Furthermore, it often happens that there is a further appeal from the appellant court to a higher court and that, again, is often allowed; so, while I make no criticism, of course, of the fact that one court may disagree with another, that does indicate the fallibility of judgment, even in the highest quarters, and the need for making appeals as widespread as we possibly can.
Generally speaking, there is no criticism about the right of appeal in civil cases. To me, as a layman, the extraordinary thing is that appeals in criminal cases, or quasi criminal cases, which affect the liberty of the subject are much more restricted—they certainly have been and still are under this Bill—than appeals in civil cases. The noble and learned Viscount gave one possible reason why that is so: his fear of congestion in the courts. I wonder whether that is really a valid reason. If, in order to do justice to the subject and to preserve his freedom from imprisonment, it is necessary to increase the facilities for appeals, then surely it is the business of authority to provide these increase facilities; and I think it is quite wrong to say, "These are the facilities that exist. They are to remain as they are for all time and we must do nothing to congest these facilities." The real test is: are additional facilities necessary to give every person who is in peril of his freedom the right to a further opportunity of having his case considered?
These are general remarks, and my friends and I propose to go through this Bill at the Committee stage and see how it measures up to the general considerations which I have laid down. I want now to turn to one or two aspects of the

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Bill in rather more detail. The first part of the Bill deals with appeals to the House of Lords in criminal cases and lays down that there shall be an appeal, with the leave of the Court below—that is, the Divisional Court or the Court, of Criminal Appeal, as the case may be—to the House of Lords. But it restricts such right of appeal to cases where it is certified by the Court below (that is, the Court which has itself already come to a decision against the proposed appellant) that a point of law of general public importance is involved in its decision.
The difference between that and the existing law is that under the existing law it has be a point of exceptional public importance, whereas this has to be a point of general public importance. It is difficult to foresee what will be the effect of that change; whether it will permit of a large number of appeals to the House of Lords or not. My own provisional view, for what it is worth, is that there is nor a great deal of difference between the two conceptions.
But the appellant also has to satisfy a second condition, and that is that it must seem to the same Court, or to the House of Lords if that Court is not satisfied, that the point is one which ought to be considered by the House of Lords. Frankly, I do not understand where the two may differ. Once a point has been agreed to be a matter of general interest, general public importance, I do not understand in what circumstances it could be a matter which ought not to be considered by the House of Lords. But, there again, I am content to leave that until a later stage when we can thresh this matter out.
But this procedure is to take the place of the present Attorney General's fiat. I certainly do not want to advocate the retention of the Attorney General's fiat. But the noble and learned Viscount made a strong point of the fact that the Attorney General may himself have been involved as an advocate in a particular case and it is then rather difficult for him to have to be asked to give his fiat that this is a matter of exceptional public interest. I respectfully would not agree. Let me say to the noble and learned Viscount himself—and I say this in no flattering sense—that I would feel perfectly confident in the noble and learned Viscount's judgment, even if he had been in the case as advocate, to decide whether
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or not he ought to exercise his fiat on the ground that it was a matter of exceptional public interest. And, as the noble and learned Viscount's predecessor, the noble Viscount, Lord Simonds, is here, I will pay him the same compliment and say that I would trust him to do the same; and I believe that any Attorney General, even though he might hold a political appointment, could be well trusted to exercise his discretion in a fair and judicial manner.
But if the case against the Attorney General is that he has been in the case, surely there will be the same objection to the Court to which the appellant, or prospective appellant, applies. Your Lordships will remember that they have only just given a decision and the appeal is against their decision, and if there is to be a prejudice, a Court is just as likely to be prejudiced in desiring that there should be no appeal against their decision as the Attorney General. In point of fact, I do not believe the Court will be prejudiced and I do not believe that a Law Officer of the Crown would be. So I myself would not attach great importance to the objection that the noble and learned Viscount has raised to the fact that the Attorney General has to issue a fiat before an appeal can be allowed. Nor would I attach very great value to the change which has been made, although I recognise that the test is to be possibly a lighter one: that is, to be of general importance as against exceptional importance. But even if one were retaining the Attorney General's fiat one could quite well make that improvement.
Nevertheless, I feel on balance that I would support the change, because it is not merely a matter of whether appeals will be facilitated: I think it must appear to the subject to be fair that such decision should be made by a Court of law rather than by a political officer of the Crown, however eminent he may be in the field of law and however trustworthy. And I think the general public would be more satisfied if this decision rests with the Court. But do not let us by any means overestimate the improvement in the position. In actual practice, apart from the fact that the test is a lighter one, I doubt whether the Court would exercise their discretion substantially differently from the way the Attorney-General would have done.

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I should now like to say a few words about the amendment of the law relating to contempt of court and to appeals on habeas corpus proceedings which the noble and learned Viscount dealt with under Clauses 13 and 14. In cases of appeals against contempt, the restrictions against appeal are similar to those applicable to the criminal law, though I think that they are slightly less onerous. There, again, I do not want to go into detail. But since the noble and learned Viscount has referred to The Times of to-day, I should like to draw his attention to some of the other items in their leading article. If I may say so, it is a very well-informed leading article—I thought so—on this question of contempt of court and what they state to be certain omissions from the Bill.
First, they suggest that it might have been possible to introduce into the Bill provisions for the removal of doubt as to what constitutes contempt, and they give a number of instances: first, the limits within which the judicial conduct of a Judge may be criticised in the Press or otherwise than in Parliament, where of course the position is open because Judges are completely vulnerable in Parliament. But in the Press or outside, to what extent is it permissible to criticise the judicial conduct of a Judge? We know—and there have been cases—that it is certainly not permissible in court to say offensive things about Judges, and only a fool would do so. But Judges have sometimes laid themselves open to criticism. There have been recent cases where that is so. Sometimes the criticism has been not very well informed, but there have been cases and I need not mention names. Your Lordships will remember one quite recently. To what extent does that constitute contempt of court?
Then, they mention the propriety of commenting on the sentence of a court while there remains any possibility of appeal—how far should that be permitted?—even though it may be in the public interest that such comment should be made. And how far should the broader public interest which may be served by publication be regarded as available as a defence against alleged contempt? The Times, having suggested that these points are omissions from the Bill, rather illogically then go on to say that they do not suggest these questions should be
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dealt with by specific amendments of the law. I am very relieved to hear that that is so, and I may perhaps be relieved of the obligation of having to argue them before your Lordships in Committee. But what they do say is that the existence of these questions underlines the necessity for an appeals procedure which would give the Judges themselves an opportunity to arrive at a consistent body of law which takes into account other matters of public concern, such as the freedom of discussion. The surest way of effecting this, they say, would be to allow all appeals to go to the Court of Appeal as a matter of course, and thence by leave to the House of Lords.
I should like to identify myself with that view. Nobody who has listened to the explanation of this Bill by the noble and learned Viscount will fail to agree that the procedure set out in the Bill is very complicated, and it seems to vary from one place to another without, so far as one can see, very satisfactory reasons. The Bill lays down three types of procedure for appeals: one type of appeal is n the case of appeals which would reach the Court of Appeal; another is, as in some cases dealt with by the Bill, where there are appeals from the court of first instance direct to the House of Lords; and the other is in cases from an inferior court, through the High Court, to the House of Lords. In some cases the appeal to the House of Lords is simply by leave of the Court of Appeal; sometimes as of right; and sometimes, as in criminal cases and, to a modified extent, in contempt of court cases, only on a certificate of the lower court that a point of law of general public importance is involved.
I should have thought that, while we were dealing with this question of appeals, there was a case for considerable simplification; and, in my view, the simplification should be that there should be an appeal as of right to the Court of Appeal and then an appeal, by leave of the Court of Appeal, to the House of Lords. I do not think that that would unduly cumber the judicial organisation of this country; and, even if it did, I think that, if it were in the interests of justice, we ought to create the necessary organisation to enable such appeals to be made.
Many of the points that I have raised can, I think, be appropriately dealt with

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at a later stage on the Bill, but I thought it right to raise them because, in my view, apart from being Committee points, they really raise questions of general public interest and of principle. In the meantime, I am sure that the whole House will welcome this Bill and will welcome the fact that the Government have applied themselves to dealing with a number of matters of considerable public interest, and we look forward to the further stages of the Bill.
4.4 p.m.
LORD PARKER OF WADDINGTON: My Lords, I should like, if I may, for a few minutes to discuss certain aspects of this Bill—a Bill which intimately concerns me—and, on the whole, to commend it to your full support. Now the Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division, as you know, has a very varied jurisdiction. It has appellate jurisdiction, dealing with appeals on points of law from magistrates and from quarter sessions. In addition, it has original jurisdiction to grant or refuse writs of habeas corpus and orders of certiorari, prohibition and mandamus—and in that last respect I venture to think that it is a very important Court of the land. Yet there is no appeal in the many cases which are criminal causes or matters—indeed, I might say in the overwhelming majority of cases—and in those cases difficult points of law occur; important points of law which are worthy of the consideration, not merely of a higher Court but of the highest Court in the land.
Apart from this, the Divisional Court, as a final Court, has always treated itself as bound by its own decisions, and it often occurs—indeed, it is inevitable—that a decision will be given at an early stage of some new legislation which, as time goes on, proves to be an embarrassment. I think the Judges of the Court have themselves learnt how to distinguish on many occasions, but it is clearly a matter in which there should be an appeal and an authoritative ruling given as to what is the law on the subject. It is for those two reasons—important questions of law, and the difficulty of being bound by one's own decisions—that has prompted me already, in my very short term of office, to feel constrained to advocate an appeal; and I am happy to say that, in doing so, I was following the noble and
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learned Lord, Lord Goddard, whose opinion I know we all value so much.
Now one reaches the stage that there is to be an appeal from the Divisional Court, and the next question is: to what Court should the appeal go, and under what conditions? There are no doubt some who think that every appeal from the Divisional Court should go to the Court of Appeal and from there, by leave, to the House of Lords. My Lords, if that were introduced it would be a revolutionary change, because in its history the Court of Appeal has never as yet had jurisdiction in criminal matters. Moreover, merely from the practical aspect, I have little doubt that the Court of Appeal has as much work as it feels it can do. But the real reason, I venture to think, is that unless an appeal were to go direct to the Appellate Committee of your Lordships' House, it follows that there would be a multiplicity of appeals. We are here dealing with criminal matters, and it is vital, I venture to think—and I believe everyone would agree—that in a criminal cause or matter finality should be reached at the earliest moment. Nobody can suggest that your Lordships' House is not a fit tribunal to consider these important questions of law. There is nothing novel in it, because, as you know, appeals in criminal matters that come from the Court of Criminal Appeal, the more important ones on indictment, go straight to your Lordships' House as it is.
Secondly, under what conditions are the appeals to be permitted? I am dealing for the moment only with appeals from the Divisional Court. It is true that, in general, that Court is already dealing with points of law, and it may be suggested that there should be an appeal to your Lordships' House on every point of law. But fact and law can never be put into watertight compartments. I suppose that half the appeals to the Divisional Court take this form: that, as a point of law, there was no evidence upon which the magistrates could so find. My Lords, if appeals in all those cases were to come before your Lordships' House, it would not be a question of the machine being clogged, but a question of taking a hammer to crack a nut. That is not to say that there are not very important points of

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law; but the whole question is to introduce somewhere a sieve through which will pass the points of law which do not merit further consideration—and it is with that in mind that the formula that is to be found in Clause 1 of this Bill has been arrived at.
There must be a certificate from the lower court that there is a point of law of general importance, and it must be one which is worthy of consideration by your Lordships' House. I know that it has been said that if the point is of general public importance then it must be worthy of consideration by your Lordships' House. It does not work out that way, however, because there are many vital principles of law which may have been laid down for years and years. The certificate of the lower court must state that the case raises a point of law of general public importance, but clearly it would not, in such a case as I have mentioned, be worthy of consideration by your Lordships' House. That is not to say that in many cases the old decisions ought not to be reviewed; it does mean that every case must be considered on its merits.
Now, my Lords, I should like to turn for a moment to the Court of Criminal Appeal. There is already machinery for appeals to your Lordships' House through the Attorney General's certificate. There the formula is rather more strict. It must be a point of law of exceptional public importance; and not only that: it must also be in the public interest that there should be an appeal. I do not subscribe in any way to a criticism of the way in which Attorney Generals in the past have exercised their powers. For my part, I see no reason why that procedure should not continue, were it not for the further provisions in this Bill: because I venture to think that it would be quite illogical that appeals from the Divisional Court should go to your Lordships' House by leave of the Divisional Court, whereas appeals in criminal cases heard on indictment, cases of far greater importance, should reach your Lordships' House only through the certificate of the Attorney General. I venture to think that there must be uniformity in this respect, and that the proper course would be to have the sieve which is introduced by Clause 1 of this Bill. Incidentally, although it
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may not be very different, it does not introduce quite such a rigid test. A point of law of general public importance is not quite so stringent as one of exceptional public importance; and there is no longer the element that it must be in the public interest.
Of course, it is quite true, as has been pointed out, that if the lower court does not certify that there is a point of law of general public importance, there is an end of the matter. But I earnestly hope that your Lordships will feel able to believe that the Divisional Court or the Court of Criminal Appeal will look at each case carefully and decide it on its merits. Indeed, I think the procedure for which we should work should be that if any one of the three Judges sitting felt that it was such a case worthy of consideration by your Lordships' House leave should be given. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, suggested, as I understood it, that a Court which had just tried a case might be prejudiced and was not the proper body to consider the matter dispassionately and decide.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I must correct that statement. I think, and hope, that I said the very reverse. I said that the Court would be no more prejudiced than the Attorney General; and I disclaimed the fact that the Attorney General was prejudiced.
LORD PARKER OF WADDINGTON: I am glad to hear that from the noble Lord. But I would say that such a Court is in the very best position to decide whether there is a point of law; whether it is a difficult point of law, and whether it is one which merits a consideration by your Lordships' House. Believe me, my Lords, presiding, as I do, in that Court, I do not want to take over the burden myself—it is much easier that criticism should be made from time to time of the Attorney General than of myself. But I do feel that it is the proper machinery for producing a sieve in these cases.
I want to say a few words about the matter of habeas corpus. Here again, provision has been made for an appeal direct to the House of Lords from the Divisional Court, which now alone can refuse the writ. If a single Judge is minded to refuse the writ, he must refer the matter to the Divisional Court, and in that way it can reach the House of Lords. I have seen it suggested that there

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should be an appeal as of right in every case of an applicant for habeas corpus: that it should go to the Court of Appeal, and from there, by leave, to the House of Lords.
It is said that it is the right of every citizen that that should occur. My Lords, that sounds all very well in theory; but I would recommend anyone who is so minded to come to the Divisional Court on Tuesdays and Fridays. There he will see that by far the majority of these applications are, on the face of them, hopelessly misconceived. The vast majority are made by prisoners serving long terms of imprisonment, serving sentences imposed by a court of competent jurisdiction from which an appeal has fed to the Court of Criminal Appeal and which has been refused. Those applications are misconceived. But if the suggested course of appeal is to be invoked, such men, who have nothing to lose, who will do anything for a day out of prison, will immediately go to the Court of Appeal. When their application is refused there, they will apply for leave for appeal to your Lordships' House; and when that is refused they will go to the Appeal Committee of your Lordships' House. I venture to think that the whole machine would be clogged, and that there is absolutely no need for it. Any applicant for a writ of habeas corpus who has a point of law to be considered will have the matter referred to the House of Lords.
Lastly, I would say a word or two on the vexed subject of contempt of court. I feel strongly that a case has been made out for what I may call the newspaper type of appeal. These cases do raise points of law. They may well raise points of law under the clause in this Bill which gives newspapers a further defence; and it will, under this Bill, always be possible for any question whether in law a contempt has taken place to reach your Lordships' House and to reach it direct; to avoid the multiplicity of appeals and to ensure that finality is quickly reached.
But what does concern me—and I hope at a later stage your Lordships will carefully consider it—is the question of contempts in the face of the court—what I may call the "tomato" type of case. It is a difficult question. Happily, it does not occur often. But what is to be done? It is said: "Oh, but there
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should be an appeal." Nobody has yet suggested, so far as I know, that there is any case in which a penalty or sentence imposed by a Judge for a contempt before him has been in any way oppressive. It has never been suggested that his powers have been abused, and I venture to think that they never will be. But then the old argument is used: "If you are right, what is the harm in putting it in?" I myself think there is a great deal of harm. Once you have an appeal these people, happily few, who have been guilty of contempt, no doubt from some form of grievance or mental aberration, will avail themselves of the right of appeal. It is not a dead letter; if it is there they will appeal. What really concerns me is whether, in the result, the authority of the Court below will not be undermined.
May I give an example? Suppose that a tomato is thrown at a Judge of the High Court, and suppose that it is in such circumstances that he sends the party to prison for three or seven days and adjourns the case. Immediately the party concerned will go to the Court of Appeal. Is the Court of Appeal to stop the case on which it is engaged and listen to that, or will they not grant the party bail for 24 or 48 hours until they can deal with it? Then when he comes before the Court of Appeal, he is full of repentance. What can the Court of Appeal do but to say, We accept your apology and send you back"? Then that same man comes back before the lower Court on the adjourned proceedings. Where, I venture to think, is the dignity and authority of the Judge?
One gets to the argument then, "Nobody should suffer a penalty. Nobody should go to prison without an appeal." But, with all humility and deference, I ask: what would be the position in the Houses of Parliament? They both have power to commit to prison for contempt of court. What would happen if somebody should say, "Oh, but that is subject to an appeal to some outside body"? Is not the answer to that that it would jeopardise and interfere with the dignity and authority of your Lordships' House? I feel that there is a real danger here; that if this purely theoretical argument, that there should be an appeal in these cases, is persisted in, it will jeopardise the authority of the courts. There are

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many assize courts now sitting throughout the country, and I venture to think that it is a remarkable thing to see the dignity and decorum with which their proceedings are conducted. I do not hesitate to boast about it, and I think that anything which interferes with the authority of the Judge to deal with 'Miners summarily before him would be a most retrograde step. That is a matter which I hope your Lordships will consider at a later stage.
4.23 p.m.
LORD DENNING: My Lords, this Bill is of considerable constitutional significance, and as it has been belittled in some places I hope your Lordships will give it a warm welcome, because it deals with three matters of great importance: first, the jurisdiction of your Lordships' House, secondly, the law of contempt of court and, thirdly, the law of habeas corpus. Take the jurisdiction of your Lordships' House. Right from the earliest times in the records of this House it has been the ultimate tribunal which has had power to call to itself the record of any court in the land to be examined for error, so that this House judicially can, as the old words of the Writ of Error say:
"… do right according to the law and custom of England."
There has been within the last 80 years one category of court from which no appeal has laid at all: I refer to the Divisional Courts. They are Courts dealing with matters of great significance to ordinary people. They hear what are in effect appeals from magistrates on points of law. If they have a difficult point of law, the magistrates can state a case for the opinion of the Divisional Court, and the Divisional Court, if it is a criminal cause or matter, gives a decision which is final and binding on itself without appeal.
Let me give your Lordships one illustration of the troubles which occur. It goes back to the last century. There was a question under the Betting Act whether Tattersall's enclosure at Kempton Racecourse was indeed a place of resort kept for persons resorting thereto for the purpose of betting. It was held by the Divisional Court—cases one way and another were cited—that it was quite illegal and contrary to the Act for the
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bookmakers to be there laying bets. That was final, un-appealable. I think it was Mr. Asquith who thought of a way round it. One shareholder of the company brought an action against the company to declare that the company could not do it. It was a friendly action which was fought on a device. It reached your Lordships' House, and the decision was overruled. That is only one case where it was done by that device.
But there are a large number of cases, such as those dealt with in this Bill, which cannot get to your Lordships. There may be decisions by the Scottish courts differing from those of the English Divisional Courts. They are irreconcilable. How are they to be reconciled? It is clear that there should be an appeal to your Lordships' House in that important category of case. Furthermore, it should be not a general appeal. As my noble and learned friend the Lord Chief Justice has said, very often it is simply a case stated on whether there was evidence on which the magistrates could find so-and-so. That is not really a point of law, though we treat it as one to get it before the courts. But in any point of general public importance there is, and by this Bill will be, an appeal to your Lordships' House. That is the first point I would mention.
The second point relates to contempt of court. Your Lordships will have read of cases where newspapers have commented on pending trials, like that where a man was arrested and one newspaper came out with headlines accusing him of being a vampire, and where the Divisional Court sentenced the editor to three months' imprisonment and fined the newspaper £10,000. Is there not to be an appeal in those cases, at all events where they involve a point of law or, at any rate, as this Bill provides, with leave either of the Court or the House of Lords? What about the recent instance where a newspaper concern in the United States distributed newspapers here which had details in them of a case pending here? Is that a contempt of court or not? This Bill provides for amending the law so as to give reasonable protection to newspapers.
But there are a large number of points which are left unsettled. These points ought to be elucidated by an appeal to

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this House in contempt cases of this kind. But what about the cases my noble and learned friend has mentioned of contempt in the face of the court? There is a difficult question. May I give your Lordships one or two examples of the problems that arise? I think the first one that might interest your Lordships was in about 1631, where, in the old Norman French, it is recorded against a man that:
"Il jetait a brickbat against le juge qui narrowly missed."
On that he was not condemned by the judge straight away. An indictment was drawn and he was convicted properly. His hand was cut off, and he was hanged in the presence of the judge.
But, ray Lords, there are different ways of doing it. In most of these cases it may be thought best, as Lord Campbell thought, that there should be either an indictment or a summons. I was once sitting myself with Lord Justice Bucknill in the Court of Appeal. We had a very dull, dry case; the atmosphere was very stuffy, and one of the people in the court got up and walked across to the window and smashed it through with his stick to let a little fresh air in. He was not committed for contempt of court: he was taken to Bow Street and summoned there, and, of course, was dealt with by the magistrate-I think he was remanded for medical observation. The other alternative is to do as was done on one occasion when I was present in court. A tomato was thrown at the Judges—I saw it myself. The Court came back in a minute or two, and committed the man to prison for six weeks.
LORD CITRINE: Did the tomato hit them.
LORD DENNING: No; fortunately, it missed. But there are the two machineries, to go before a magistrate or a trial court or for the Judge to deal with it himself. It is a very difficult question to know whether there needs to be an appeal in those circumstances where the Judge deals with the matter himself.
Far more difficult, however, are those cases where a witness refuses to answer a question. That is a contempt of court, and it can be punished by a Judge. There was a case a hundred years ago at the York Assizes, where there was a
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trial for bribery at an Election. The witness was asked had he not received so much money from the election agent, and he refused to answer. He had an indemnity in his pocket, but the question was whether he might even be impeached in this House. At all events he refused to answer, and the Judge sentenced him to six months' imprisonment in York Castle and fined him £500. That would not happen nowadays. It is the fact that Lord Selborne introduced a Bill, but did not proceed further, for giving appeals in contempt of court cases. I would suggest to your Lordships that this Bill, although it needs careful consideration, is, on the whole, right to give an appeal in contempt of court cases which has not been done before. It may need working out in detail to safeguard against abuses, but on the whole, as I say, I think it right that there should be an appeal.
Lastly, I turn to the very important question of habeas corpus. Your Lordships will know that this is a great right which protects every person in this country from being detained except in accordance with the law. I was always brought up to believe—indeed, Lord Halsbury, one Lord Chancellor, said it; and another, Lord Hailsham—that if a person was detained and applied to a Judge for a writ of habeas corpus, and it was refused, he could go from one Judge to another, around the whole corps of Judges, to see whether he could be released, because there was no appeal from that decision. But my noble and learned friend the Lord Chief Justice has shown that we were in error. There is no such right to go from Judge to Judge; there used to be in the old days to go from Court to Court, from the King's Bench to the Court of Common Pleas or the Exchequer Chamber, but not from Judge to Judge. There is now only one court, the High Court, the Supreme Court. There is no right to go at all, and in those circumstances is it not right that there should be an appeal from a refusal of habeas corpus?
But an even more important change is that it gives the right of appeal to the other side. When a man has been granted his liberty under a writ of habeas corpus, the constitutional law of this country for centuries has said that no one can challenge it. That is his safeguard: when he is released under a writ

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of habeas corpus it is not to be challenged by the prosecutor under appeal. The significance of this Bill is that it does give the right to the other side. May I tell your Lordships why I believe that to be right, with the safeguards which are there? There are two cases which I believe have given rise to this. There was a case shortly after the war in which an Army officer who had been demobilised twelve months—he was a bank clerk in Westmorland—was taken by the Provost Marshal over to Germany and there court-martialled for an offence committed while he was in the Army. And he was sentenced to two years imprisonment. He brought his writ of habeas corpus before the King's Bench and the whole question was whether he was or was not liable to be tried. That question depended on whether he was a Regular officer still on active service. The Court held that he was not; that he could be tried only within three months of demobilisation. In that case twelve months had elapsed, so the Court discharged him then and there. The Attorney General of the day thought that decision was wrong. He could not appeal against it. It may have been wrong, but he could not appeal. Nevertheless, ought it not have been possible, for the sake of all other cases, to obtain a final decision?
The other case was a case under the Mental Deficiency Acts, where there was a question of a person who had been detained under the Acts as a mental defective; indeed, he was said to have been "found neglected". In 1956, when the meaning of those words was decided in the Divisional Court, it was held that he had not been "found neglected", within the meaning of the Act; and he was released. A very serious question arose as to the meaning of those words "found neglected". The authorities could not challenge them. The man had been released under habeas corpus, and no appeal was open to them. I believe that, in consequence, some thousands of people, 3,000 to 4,000 people, were released. That interpretation of the words "found neglected" could not be challenged or questioned in any court, because there was no appeal once the man had been discharged on his application for habeas corpus.
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Cases of great importance may be decided on habeas corpus, and there ought to be an appeal allowed to those who would detain them. This Bill has the safeguard that such a man, if once released, is not to be put back. You can get the law settled if you like, but that man who has been released should not be put back again. I suggest that, with these safeguards, this great constitutional development is quite satisfactory. There may be details to be worked out, but with those three matters which I have mentioned to your Lordships, as I say, of great constitutional consequence, I would ask your Lordships to give a warm welcome to this Bill which represents a great advance in our constitutional system.
4.39 p.m.
LORD GODDARD: My Lords, this Bill has received so many encomiums already that there is little left for me to say. I should like to deal with one small point, a point of criticism made principally in the newspapers discussing this Bill since it has been introduced. In the articles they seem to think that the Bill is one which is restricting people's right of appeal and not giving them the right of appeal as a right. They entirely overlook the fact that in the only case with which this Bill deals, namely appeals in criminal cases to the House of Lords, the people have one appeal already. I have always understood that one of the matters which people regard as unfortunate is the giving of double appeals except in exceptional cases. A man who has appealed to the Court of Criminal Appeal has made his application or had his appeal heard as of right. If he fails in that, this Bill, so far from restricting any appeal, gives him a chance of a second appeal, but only by leave.
Your Lordships will remember that in civil cases the parties have a right to appeal to the Court of Appeal, and they have a right to come to this House if they can get leave to do so. They have to get leave to appeal to this House in a civil case. In a criminal case it is just the same—the man has had one appeal; and that is true whether his appeal has gone to the Divisional Court or to the Court of Criminal Appeal. I do not think that one wants too greatly to facilitate double appeals. It is a great misfortune to have double appeals,

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although it is right that cases of great importance should come before this Court for final decision.
There are just a few other matters to which I wish to refer. I think there is a feeling that a great many cases may come to this Court. I rather doubt it. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, wondered whether one in four cases were not the subject of successful appeals. So far as the Court of Criminal Appeal is concerned, I invite him to attend on a Monday morning, when I am sure my noble and learned friend Lord Parker of Waddington will be delighted to see him. During the twelve years that I sat in the Court of Criminal Appeal, the registrar made careful note of the number of appeals that were successful. We ed to deal with 20 or 30 every Monday morning, and in the course of the year the number of appeals ran into 2,000 or so. The registrar calculated that between 3½ and 4 per cent. of those appeals were successful. So there is not much fear of this House being overwhelmed with appeals from the Court of Criminal Appeal. Appeals against sentence are quite a different matter. They form a large part of the successful and unsuccessful appeals in the Court of Criminal Appeal; but they will not come up here, because sentence is not a point of general importance—it is simply a matter of the facts of a particular case.
The only other thing I want to say is that I entirely support my noble and learned friend Lord Parker of Waddington with regard to his opinion on contempt in face of the court. Perhaps I may be allowed to say a word on that because I am the remaining Judge who was a target for tomatoes. It happened in the days when I was sitting in the Court of Appeal. Lord Justice Clauson and I were sitting together, and a litigant who asked for leave to appeal in a case which had been dismissed ten years before was told that he could not have leave. He went out and bought a few tomatoes and aimed them at us. I am glad to say he missed, because they were ripe ones. But one did go through the door at the side of the Court and fell at the feet of a perfectly innocent Judge who had nothing to do with the case and who said. "Good Heavens, is it raining tomatoes?"
When an incident like that occurs, it is surely right that the Court should deal with the matter in a summary way. Is
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there really any necessity, in those circumstances, for an appeal to anyone? Judges do not give savage sentences. In that particular case we committed the man for six weeks, but at the end of a fortnight we brought him up, because Christmas was coming, and we let him out. We had always intended to do it, but we thought it a good thing to give him a little more than a fortnight straight away. Judges can be trusted not to give savage sentences which require the opinion of the Court of Appeal.
A more important matter, I think, with regard to contempt in the face of a court, is where a witness refuses to give evidence. What happens at present when a witness refuses to give evidence in the course of a case is that the Judge commits him. He is taken down and, as a rule, a night in the cells makes a great difference, and he comes back next day and gives his evidence. If he is given a right of appeal he may say, "Well, I have been told I have a right of appeal, and I will make an application to the court and possibly to the Law Society to give me legal aid", and a few other matters of that sort. What is to happen to the criminal trial which is going on? It may be a most important murder case. Is the Judge to adjourn the case because an important witness will not give his evidence? Of course, if he will not give evidence the only thing one can do is to put him in the cells, and the case may have to go on without him. This would surely put the Court into a great difficulty. I suggest to your Lordships that contempt in the face of the court should be excluded in the matter of appeal.
Another matter that has been greatly discussed in some journals is whether or not a person should have a right to go straight from the Divisional Court or from the Court of Criminal Appeal to the existing Court of Appeal. My noble and learned friend the Lord Chief Justice has pointed out that the Court of Appeal, which of course is the creation of Statute, has never had any criminal judisdiction at all. I submit to your Lordships that it is far better that cases of real importance for which permission to appeal is given should come straight to this House, where a Committee of five at least will be sitting, rather than that they should go to the Court of Appeal, because in the latter event it is an appeal from three Judges to three

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Judges, which never seems to me to be very satisfactory. Three Judges sit in a Divisional Court, three Judges sit in the Court of Appeal, and it may not be that in a particular case—for instance, one relating to the licensing laws—more wisdom would be found in the Court of Appeal than there was in the court of first instance.
With regard to contempt generally, I am glad that it will be possible to bring matters before this House. Some reference was made by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, to a decision of the Divisional Court some years ago, that during the time that an appeal was pending it was contempt to comment upon the sentence that had been passed. I think it was held that it was contempt. I should like to see that decision reviewed in this Court, because I always thought it was wrong.
4.48 p.m.
VISCOUNT SIMONDS: My Lords. I shall detain your Lordships for only a few moments. I had not come here intending to speak at all. I had not intended to speak because the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack had been good enough, may I say, to consult me upon many aspects of this Bill, and persuaded me what a good Bill it was. Therefore, I did not intend, and I do not intend now, to rise in any spirit of criticism. But there have been one or two observations made which lead me to intervene. First of all, I should like your Lordships to get into proper perspective this question relating to contempt in the face of the court. An impression may have arisen that that is a matter of frequent happening which requires special legislation. It is the rarest possible event. During all the years that I was at the Bar, and the many years that I sat on the Bench as a Judge of first instance, I never knew such a thing to happen. It is true that I was, for the most part, in the quieter waters of the Chancery Division; but I never knew it happen, and I never heard of its happening except in three or four cases.
There was, of course, the legendary case of which your Lordships may have heard, which illustrates at the same time the indulgence which the Court extends to such cases. That was a case that happened some time ago when there were
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two Vice-Chancellors, as they were then called, in the Court of Chancery—the one Vice-Chancellor Malins and the other Vice-Chancellor Bacon. A disappointed litigant threw an egg at Vice-Chancellor Malins, but incurred no more severe a reprimand than the observation, "That must have been meant for my brother Bacon". If I am not introducing a spirit of levity into these proceedings, may I say that that is really the spirit in which the Judges meet conduct of this kind. From time to time no doubt they have to be severe, but I do not think anybody who listens to the Lord Chief Justice of England, whom we heard with so much pleasure to-day, could disapprove of the spirit in which Her Majesty's Judges deal with conduct of this kind. I would therefore sngly urge the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, if he can see his way to do so, to amend the Bill in Committee so that it excludes from appeal cases of contempt and cases of contempt in face of the court, which have to be dealt with at once.
There is only one other point with which I wish to deal. I venture to mention this because, alas! I have been so much longer a Member of your Lordships' House than any of my colleagues who now take part in the judicial work of the House that I can claim to have very long experience. Frankly, I am a little nervous lest this sieve through which appeals from the Court of Criminal Appeal must pass should prove to have too wide a mesh. Though it is too late to advocate it now, I have always had a great doubt whether there should be a third criminal trial at all. When there has been a trial, at assizes, maybe, and the matter has been thoroughly ventilated again in the Court of Criminal Appeal, I have always doubted the expediency of a third appeal; and although it is true that the House of Lords may have rendered useful service in the clarification of the law I have always doubted whether that is sufficient justification for not having in criminal cases that finality of which the noble Lord has spoken. I should myself have thought that there should be no appeal to the House of Lords; but it is too late to say anything of that kind.
I hope, however, that the mesh will be as close as possible and, with some doubt, I welcome the introduction of

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these words in Clause 1 which make the test less rigid than it used to be under the Attorney General's fiat. I confess I should like to see just those words restored and just the same measure accorded to petitions for leave to appeal as guided the Attorney General himself. The one thing about which I felt a little doubt in the speech of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice of England was when he suggested that leave should be given when one of three of the Judges of the Court of Criminal Appeal thought it should be given. I would much rather have heard him say that leave should be given only when a majority thought it should be given; and I hope he may be persuaded to take that view.
I have nothing further to add except that I should like to say with what pleasure I heard the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chief Justice of England, how much I, for one, enjoyed the eloquence of his speech, and how grateful I was to find his learned predecessor succeeded by so worthy a successor. May I conclude with words that will appeal to your Lordships: uno avolso non deficit alter.
4.54 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I intervene after speeches by so many distinguished members of the Judiciary with some hesitation, but I should like to make a few comments on this important Bill. First, I should like to congratulate the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, not only for his speech in introducing it, which was so illuminating, but for having provided a great deal of dynamic energy which has brought such an important Bill before Parliament at the present time. Over the period that I have been privileged to be a Member of your Lordships' House we have done a great deal in the way of improving the laws of this country, and I hope we shall continue to do so.
That has not, perhaps, been as evident on the criminal side as on the other side, and I feel that both on the side of criminal law and on the constitutional side, this Bill, as my noble friend Lord Denning has said, is of very great importance; and I should like to congratulate the noble and learned Viscount on his initiative (if I may use that term) in bringing it before Parliament at the
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present time. I am in very general agreement with it, and if the remainder of my speech is a little critical I hope the noble and learned Viscount will not feel that my general approval is more than, so to speak, a little toned down.
First, with regard to appeals from the Divisional Court, I heartily accept everything that has been said. Their absence has long been a very serious blemish on our administrative arrangements in connection with the law. I entirely agree that that entails cases coming from the Court of Criminal Appeal to your Lordships' House in the same kind of way. I take a diametrically opposed view to that just put to your Lordships so eloquently by the noble and learned Viscount who comes from the Chancery Division, where perhaps they have not the same experience of criminal law as some of us have had of practice on the other side.
I feel that the words in the Act which gave the fiat to the Attorney General are unduly cramping, and I have no doubt whatever, speaking as, I hope, a reasonably close student of criminal law and one who has practised at assizes and quarter sessions, administered it in a very junior way as chairman of a quarter sessions and lectured on it to generations of Bar students, that we have never had the advantage of enough opinions from your Lordships' House in regard to criminal jurisprudence. Many foreign lawyers who have come here have told me that they do not think our criminal law, from the jurisprudential point of view, has been developed in anything like the same way as our admirable commercial law, common law and equity law generally.
The number of cases which have come before your Lordships' House on criminal points in the period since the Court of Criminal Appeal was established is really minute as compared with those involving civil points. Yet if one studies these, they appear as replete with the wisdom one would expect to get from the eminent Judges who deal with cases in your Lordships' House; whereas the Court of Criminal Appeal, of course, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goddard, has pointed out, is really overworked. Two thousand cases a year make it really impossible to gel that poise and reflection which is needed for first-class judgments.

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I believe it would be the opinion of most of those who teach criminal law in our universities that the Court of Criminal Appeal has never really had a proper chance—and the House of Lords has never had a proper chance either, because of the constricting words of the Act which have really prevented the Attorney General from giving his fiat in a number of cases where I am sure it would have been to the advantage of the law had the fiat been given. Indeed, I should like to eliminate the words "general public" from subsection (2) of Clause 1 and leave it first to the discretion of the Court which is appealed from, and then, if it refuses, to your Lordships' House, to give leave in a proper case; as indeed they do in civil cases.
I am sorry that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chief Justice is not here, because I cannot altogether agree that it is sufficient to rely on leave being given by the trial Court. If we take the civil Court of Appeal, time after time that Court, having tried a case, feel there is no need for it to come to your Lordships' House. But there the litigant has the right to come to your Lordships' House, despite the refusal in the Court of Appeal, and to ask your Lordships for permission to come here; and your Lordships quite frequently, bringing new vision to the problems involved, grant that permission. I have known quite a number of cases where afterwards the case was argued out and the decision given in the Court of Appeal was overruled. Therefore, I should prefer to leave it to your Lordships' House to decide, on application, whether it is a proper case to be fully considered in your Lordships' House, and I think there is a great deal of feeling in the profession that that would be a better way of doing it. There was only the other day an admirable letter in The Times from an experienced practitioner in which that point was excellently made. Those are the main points. I hope at the Committee stage an attempt will be made to leave the question of whether there should be an appeal to your Lordships' House, to your Lordships' House to decide.
I should like to say something on the subject of contempt, which has been so much discussed this afternoon. I am
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very much in sympathy with Clause 12, and I do not think there is any need for me to say any more about that. What I do wish to deal with, though, is this question of whether there should be a right of appeal under Clause 13 from a decision of a Judge alone in what are called cases of contempt in the face of the court. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Goddard, has taken rather an extreme case, the case in which a tomato was thrown, but that is not quite a typical case. There have been a number of cases. The noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simonds, said that he had never come across one in person, but there have been a number. I have here a letter from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Shawcross, who is very interested in the whole of this problem, as your Lordships know, because he himself has introduced a Bill; and he asked me to say how much he regretted that his important engagement in Central Africa would make it impossible for him to be here and to speak in this debate.
A NOBLE LORD: He is ill.
LORD CHORLEY: He is ill now, but this letter was written before his unfortunate illness started. He said he had come across these cases in practice, and in at any rate one of them he himself thought that the Judge had come to a wrong conclusion, and that this matter had been considered by the Bar Council, of which, as your Lordships know, he was for a number of years the Chairman. I will quote from his letter:
"The Bar Council consider it essential that there should be a general right of appeal. They made considerable inquiries at one time, and this appears to be the only case in law in a civilised country in which a person can be sent to prison by a Court from whose decision there is no appeal."
That seems to me a very important point indeed. This is the only civilised country, apparently, in the world in which a person can be sent to prison by a Court from whose decision there is no appeal. And it is not as if this were a new point. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, has pointed out, in the old days, when in a way we were much more severe than we are now, a jury used to be empanelled on the spot and the alleged contempt, which is of course a criminal offence, was tried then and there—as in

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the case of throwing the brickbat—by the jury; and if the jury found the man was guilty, as, in the face of clear evidence like that they could hardly fail to do, the man was dealt with like an ordinary criminal. That is, in a way, much more satisfactory, because there is always a possibility outside that people who were not there will say the Judge was judging his own case.
Some of your Lordships may possibly have studied the Tichborne case. Orton, the claimant in the Tichborne case, got cross with the Lord Chief Justice of that time, Lord Cockburn, a great lawyer but a man of rather forceful character, who was sometimes a little irascible; and as a result of it quite a number of people thought Orton was being hardly dealt with. He was in fact committed for contempt of Court. He appealed to the Court of Appeal, and in his speech in argument there, a remarkable effort, he said, in effect, "This is a case where the Judges are judging in their own cause, and it is a fundamental principle of the law of England that people should not be judges in their own cause." That is why I myself feel that, despite the practicality of the arguments which have been addressed to your Lordships this afternoon by the present Lord Chief Justice and his most eminent predecessor, there is a great deal to be said for giving a right of appeal in this sort of case, and not leaving to the Judge before whom the contempt was actually committed the final say in the matter.
There is one other rather technical point which possibly one ought to raise in the Committee stage of this Bill, but I will raise it now as I am not quite sure whether I shall be here then. In any case, it is one that might be looked at in the interval. Looking at the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Shawcross, I thought that Clause 3 of that Bill provides a procedure on application for attachment or committal where it states:
"Provision shall be made by rules of Court—,
(a) for the hearing in public of any application in the High Court to attach or commit any person for contempt of Court"—
the gravamen of the point being "the hearing in public". I wondered how that would fit in with the provisions for hearing certain types of case in private and providing that in those cases something written in the papers or elsewhere
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would be a contempt of Court. In the four cases which the noble and learned Viscount referred to under Clause 12, if a contempt were committed in that way, so to speak, in private, would it be brought up and dealt with in public, or would it be dealt with behind closed doors in that sort of way? The noble Lord, Lord Shawcross, obviously had that point in mind when drafting his clause. It seems to me to be one of some importance, and I should like the noble and learned Viscount to look at it, if he will be so good.
I should like to turn for a minute or two to the habeas corpus side of this question—and here I have two or three points which have been worrying some of us. They are points which perhaps might be more satisfactorily raised on the Committee stage, but again in order that the noble and learned Viscount may look at them I will mention them now as quickly as possible. As the noble and learned Lord pointed out, in the case of an application for habeas corpus in a civil cause, an appeal, of course, lies to the Divisional Court, and to the Court of Appeal, as a right. The Bill we have before us this afternoon provides, for the first time, for appeals from decisions of the Queen's Bench Divisional Court in these criminal causes and matters. This change we welcome very much, of course. But here an appeal will lie only with leave, and will have to satisfy the conditions which are laid down in subsection (2) of Clause 1, on which I have already commented, because this covers not only the straight appeal in an ordinary criminal case but also these habeas corpus cases, as well. Why should applications for habeas corpus in criminal matters be dealt with on a different footing from applications for habeas corpus in civil matters? The noble and learned Viscount did just touch on this point, but I do not feel that he quite cleared it up.
There is, of course, the point that applications for habeas corpus in criminal matters are very often difficult to distinguish in substance from applications for certiorari in criminal matters—where, of course, the applicant has already been tried and sentenced by a competent Court, and is, in fact, contending that the Court acted outside its jurisdiction or in excess of its jurisdiction. I suppose it could be said that what goes for certiorari should

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also go for habeas corpus. There is a good deal to be said for that, of course, in that type of case, but this is by no means the whole of this side of the matter.
The answer is not a complete answer, because, my Lords, there are certain types of cases, particularly cases under the Extradition Acts and the Fugitive Offenders Act, where the matter is dealt with, in the first instance, by a magistrate, who has to pass judgment on very important and difficult points of law: and there, of course, the proceedings are not a trial of the merits of the case at all, and the consequences of surrender may obviously be quite catastrophic from the point of view of the prisoner. My Lords, even if it is necessary to maintain generally this distinction beween the criminal case and the civil case, it seems that there ought to be some special provision made in order to protect the situation in regard to the sort of case which I have just been mentioning, the sort of case which occurs from time to time—in fact, fairly frequently—under the Extradition Acts and the Fugitive Offenders Act. That is the first point.
The next point is a slightly technical one, and it may well be that the noble and learned Viscount will be able to satisfy me on it immediately. As has, in effect, come out in the course of discussion this afternoon, there is nothing to prevent a person who wishes to apply for a writ of habeas corpus in a criminal matter from applying to a single Judge in any of the Divisions of the High Court. I think it appears quite clearly from the Hastings case, which has been referred to more than once this afternoon, that he can, if he likes, go to the Chancery Division. Normally speaking, he goes to the Queen's Bench Division; but he could go to the Chancery Division, or to the Probate, Divorce and Admiralty Division. Clause 14 (1), which was referred to, I think, by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, provides that an order for release should be refused only by the Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division. What we are wondering is this: if the applicant chooses to make his application to a Chancery Judge, and the Chancery Judge dismisses his application, how does he get from the Chancery Judge into the
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Queen's Bench Division? It may be that that is possible, but on the face of it it looks a little difficult. I should like to know whether it would not be wiser just to leave the matter open to a Division of the High Court rather than to confine it, as is at present done, to the Queen's Bench Division.
The third point on this particular matter is this. It would be convenient for a Court which hears an application for certiorari to quash an order for error in law appearing on the face of the record in a civil case to be able, in an appropriate case, to vary the order. This is a little on the periphery of the Bill, and the noble and learned Viscount may say that it cannot properly be brought into it. But at the present time, where the Court finds that the record ought to be quashed, all it can do is to quash it outright, although it may be quite obvious that by a small amendment the whole thing could be put right. But on the decision in the recent case of the Medical Appeal Tribunal, ex parte Gilmore [1957; 1 Queen's Bench Division], which is commonly referred to as the "paired organ" case, it is perfectly clear that the Court has at present not the power to do this. And it would, I think, be an obvious improvement in the law if the Court could be given the power to put the record right—in a proper case, of course. In that way, a great deal of multiplicity of proceedings would be avoided. That is a suggestion. The noble and learned Viscount may say that it cannot be brought in, but I should like to bring it to his attention. I hope that he will be able to help me, at any rate on some of these matters, because, as I say, this is such a good Bill that one would like to see it made even better than it is already.
5.16 p.m.
LORD CITRINE: My Lords, in latter months, when I have had the opportunity of being present in your Lordships' House, there have been two measures brought before this House which have struck me as being singular in one respect. The first measure concerned proceedings before magistrates. I have not the precise Title of the Bill in my mind, because I did not anticipate taking any part in this debate. On that occasion I noticed that every person who spoke in the debate was either a practising lawyer

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or a person concerned in some way or other with the administration of justice. I take the precaution usually of carrying with me Dod's Companion, because it always helps me to understand the background of the speaker and helps me to realise more keenly, as it were, his point of view.
We have had much the same experience in regard to the participation of Members of the House in this Bill to-day. So far as I can judge, every speaker other than myself is a lawyer. We have had four Judges who have spoken in this debate, and we are all very grateful to them, of course, for the frank and fair-minded way in which they expressed themselves to the Members of this House. But the House is not made up exclusively of lawyers or Judges: it is safe to say that there is a predominance of laymen. Some of the laymen, surely, somewhere, must have minds upon this question, and have points of view to express; and I must confess my disappointment that, on the two occasions I am referring to, there has not been a more general participation in the debates by laymen. I can well understand the impatience of the Members of your Lordships' House who may feel that on these questions it is better to leave matters to the experts. I have on a previous occasion given some views about experts in spheres with which I am acquainted, and I have never yet found it an advantage to rely exclusively on the opinions of experts.
Moreover, there are considerations in this Bill which are not questions of law at all, but which are in the main, questions of what I may call the public sense of justice. I am no lawyer, as your Lordships cart readily appreciate from what I have said and as you will the more readily appreciate as I go on; but I have read sufficient about the biographies of lawyers and eminent Judges, some of them Lord Chancellors, to know that they are as subject to the ordinary human emotions as I am. I also know that the conceptions of Judges and the interpretations of the law which have been given over the centuries reflect in the main the attitude of mind of the community. They are not static; they change as public opinion changes. Usually they change much more slowly than public opinion changes, but they change none the less.
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If I were wanting to give instances in support of what I am saying, I would say this. Even 100 years ago it was practically impossible for the trade union movement to gain elementary justice at the hands of even the most eminent Judges in this country. We have an outstanding event in trade union history which has reference to the trial and deportation of the Tolpuddle Martyrs. I can say without doubt that the deepest sense of injustice at the way those men were treated rests to-day in the minds of the vast majority of trade unionists. If I wanted to give instances of bias, they would be simple to give. If we go as far back, for example, as to the trial of Sir Walter Raleigh, we find that the language used in cross-examination by that eminent lawyer, Chief Justice Coke, to whom I think the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, referred (he was not Chief Justice, I believe, at the time) was something which would horrify any modern judge.
I am glad, of course, like all humble members of the community, of the wider conceptions that are brought to bear upon legal questions to-day by Her Majesty's Judges. I remember the time when Judges were rather proud to say that they had no knowledge of even the commonest factors which were bandied about in public, merely because—presumably, anyhow—the evidence in regard to that particular incident was not given in their court, which made them laughable in the eyes of the ordinary public. Consequently, it is a great relief to me to know, as I hear it in the House, the breadth of view which is brought to bear on these questions by the noble and learned Lords who are Members of this House. The opening statements on the Bill by the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor were, as always, eminently fair. I have yet to detect him in anything approaching what I would call political bias, or an attempt to score off an opponent; and I have admired the way in which he has conducted the business of this House and the statements he has made in it. I have nothing but admiration for his statement to-day. It was clear; but, needless to say, it could not embrace all the various features of the legislation, and particularly he could not project himself into, say, the Committee stage or beyond that as to what might arise. I suppose that people like myself have to depend almost exclusively

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on the Explanatory Memorandum that is attached to the Bill. I have tried to look at the particular clauses referred to in the Memorandum, but the Memorandum is my standby in what I have to say.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, who followed the Lord Chancellor, made a significant point which perhaps impressed me more than it did the noble and learned Lords who are connected with the legal profession. He used words to the effect that if there was an increase in the number of appeals, then the proper course would be for the machinery of the law to be adjusted in such a way that those appeals could be dealt with. I understood him to mean that the argument that the courts would be cluttered up by appeals if certain extensions of the right of appeal took place was not one that ought to be used in this House. If a factory was engaged in producing products, and the demand for its products increased, it would be a poor businessman who did not expand his capacity. Surely, in a realm like the law, where the liberty of the individual is affected, and with modern communities, being constantly and inevitably hedged round by the development of society itself, where that kind of issue is at stake it cannot be a valid argument that the law would be cluttered up if the right of appeal were widely extended. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, for making that, to me, most valuable point.
The Bill, so far as I can see, is a good Bill. It certainly extends the rights of the subject. But perhaps we ought to look at what kind of extension there is in, say, the case of contempt of court. Clauses 11 and 12 deal with this subject, and they give much more adequate protection, for example, to the newspapers, and the distributors of publications than exist at the present time. But it is an extension in an area where the people who are affected by the extension in present circumstances are among the most capable in the community to defend themselves. They are usually large newspapers. The cases I have heard about in the last two or three years have been of that kind, where eminent counsel could be engaged and large sums of money could be spent on defence against a charge of contempt of court. In the case of distributors it may not be quite the same and there may be instances
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where small men are affected; but I should say that, even in that case, there is the probability that the people who have been given this protection will, on the whole, be able to defend themselves much better than the ordinary member of the community.
The noble Lord, Lord Chorley, concentrated on the same point that I had in mind in rising. I rose a little earlier in the debate—I did not know that the noble Lord was behind me and that he had risen at the same time—and consequently I may be guilty of repeating something of what he said. But, after all, it is the Members of this House who will have to say whether this is a good or a bad Bill, and whether it should be passed into law, and in that sense I have my excuse for even extending one of the points, at least, that he raised; that is, the question of contempt of court. "Contempt in the face of the court" is a new expression to me, but evidently it is a well-known one. I am quite sure that lawyers generally do not realise the state of mind in which the ordinary person enters the witness box. I do not know about the other kind of box, because I have never been in it; but I do know about the witness box, and the browbeating I saw time after time in court when I used to attend regularly at one part of my career was most surprising in the administration of the British law.
I say nothing about the changes of technique. Counsel will make an assertion which is not a question at all. Instead of asking a question, he makes an assertion, and the witness is supposed to regard it as a question and answer it. I would say that the average witness, when he enters the witness box, is at a great disadvantage. It might easily be that some form of contempt of court is committed quite unwittingly. When a man enters a witness box I see no reason why he should be frightened of a judge, jury or anybody else. I see no reason why he should regard the judge as a different kind of person. But I am quite sure that there are many who are put into that position. There are many people who have to enter a dock to be tried on charges, who cannot act normally and who are intimidated by their surroundings. I think my judgment on that point would be endorsed by the overwhelming mass of people

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who have had experience of the courts. I am not talking about the criminal classes.
I say, therefore, that when we come to the question of contempt in the face of the court we ought to see that a measure of protection is afforded in that case at least as adequate as that afforded in the other cases mentioned to-day under Clauses 11 and 12. Can it be right that a judge, without any kind of examination, can at once pass sentence in his own cause because the dignity of the court has been offended in some way? Can it be right in principle that that judge, whose dignity is offended in the degree that he conceives it to be offended, can at once decide what penalty is justified on the person committing the alleged contempt? I say that that is a flaw in the law, and that it is something which has existed too long. Quite clearly, it is something that has arisen from the ancient past, and something which is out of harmony, in my opinion, with modern public opinion.
I realise that there are some forms of contempt which cannot be dealt with in what I might call the same way as other forms. I do not know whether, for example, the question of offending against the dignity of the court embraces the refusal to answer questions. I can see that it would be utterly wrong for a person to be able with impunity to refuse to answer questions in court, and the question of his or her contempt would have to be tried subsequently. But I cannot see how it is a case for summary action. That is not in the same category as where the dignity of the court—particularly if it comprises one single judge; and that is the case I am applying myself to now—is alleged to be offended. Until I began to learn shorthand I did not discover that "court" and "judge" were used simultaneously to mean the same thing. I say it is utterly wrong for that judge to have supreme power to pass whatever sentence he thinks fit.
I will not mention names, but I was rather sorry to hear one of the noble and learned Judges who spoke in this debate appearing to resist this. I have the highest regard for that Member of your Lordships' House, who has always struck me, in his utterances in Court, in public and in this House, as being fair-minded. I thought he was resisting it, but I may be wrong about that. I got the impres
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sion that he felt that, in this realm of contempt in the face of the court, it was something that ought to be left entirely to the judge himself. It is not always easy to remember precisely what was said, but he used words which conveyed the meaning to my mind that judges in such cases would not be likely to be too severe. That is as good as saying that the climate of public opinion restrains them from being too severe because, clearly, if something of that kind were done there would be a public outcry, and even judges are not sacrosanct and free from public comment.
I say that this gap in the law with regard to contempt in the face of the court ought to be stopped up, and I hope that in the Committee stage this point will be examined. I realise that there is a tricky point involved here—how on one side to maintain the dignity of the court, and on the other how to secure justice to the individual and get rid of this obnoxious principle of the judge being the judge in his own cause. I say that quite plainly. I know that different degrees of contempt must require different treatment, and my only plea is that in the Committee stage, with the broadmindedness which the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has always displayed in this House, he will bring his power and his experience to bear upon that point. I say it is a good Bill. It is a Bill we all welcome, and it can be made a better Bill if some of the points raised in the debate are incorporated.
5.36 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I shall not detain the House for more than a few moments. I rise only on account of a remark made by the noble Lord, Lord Citrine. Of course, I agree with him and with other noble Lords who have spoken that there will be some important questions that we must consider on the Committee stage. I would, however, mildly protest against the description of a judge who acts when there is a contempt in the face of the court as being a judge in his own cause. When the dignity of the court is insisted upon, that does not mean that the judge is a judge in his own cause—he is maintaining something that is essential for the administration of justice. I should like

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to protest against the delusion that the judge who then acts is being a judge in his own cause.
What should be done in those circumstances, about which there is an apparent difference between what has been suggested by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chief Justice, and what has been said by other speakers, can safely be left to be discussed during the Committee stage of this Bill. Likewise, I am sure that there will be important discussions on what has been called the sieve provided in the first clause of the Bill. The noble Lord who has just sat down should make no apology because he intervened as a layman. I know that my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack will agree with that, because he took some trouble to explain the Bill in language which would be clear to laymen as well as to lawyers.
In addition to the principle of the desirability of the right of appeal, there is the other principle to which my noble and learned friend Lord Simonds drew attention—the desirability in criminal matters of getting a final decision as soon as it can justly be obtained. How to reconcile those two things can be considered in greater detail when we come to the Committee stage of the Bill, and particularly to a discussion of the first clause. I rise only to congratulate Her Majesty's Government, and above all my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack, on what I believe to be a major measure of legal reform.
5.40 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, it is my first happy duty to thank your Lordships for the reception which you have given to this Bill, and to say how much pleasure I have received from hearing the Lord Chief Justice of England and his predecessor. I was also pleased, if he will allow an old friend to say so, by the fact that my noble and learned friend Lord Simonds changed his intention and joined in this debate. I think the whole House appreciated that we had three remarkable additions. That is not, of course, in any way to denigrate the contributions that have been made by the other legal figures—Lord Silkin, Lord Denning, Lord Chorley and Lord Conesford. But all that only underlines our pleasure that
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Lord Citrine should have taken the trouble not only to interest himself in the Bill but to take part in our debate. I assure him, as one who has spent a quarter of a century in debates of the sort that are usually rather grudgingly called "lawyers' holidays", that we lawyers really like it when a layman comes in; and I hope he will do it again.
The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, dealt with one or two points on which I would like just to say a word. The first was the point which was repeated and discussed by the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, about whether the courts of appeal should be made for the appellant rather than the appellant for the courts of appeal. I think it has emerged from the other speeches, especially that of my noble and learned friend Lord Goddard, that there is no difficulty at all in getting to the Court of Criminal Appeal and having the case examined. The problem to which we have to direct our minds is, as propounded by my noble and learned friend Lord Simonds, when you have had one appeal, and that has been a full appeal, on fact and law, and any other features of the case, what are the conditions on which you are going to have a second examination? I think that is really the point to which we must direct our minds. I think we shall all agree that two full examinations of every aspect of the case would not be to the public advantage, and what we have tried to do is to evolve conditions which we think will meet that difficulty. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, in the end accepted the position that it should be left in the hands of the Courts, and on behalf of that important trade union of ex-Attorneys General I thank him for the kind words he said about us as a class.
On the point that he raised, that this is asking the Court, which has ex hypothesi decided the other way, for the answer to the questions in the condition, he will note that what we suggest is that the Court that has tried the case should certify that a point of law of general public importance is involved. The Court is not dealing at that stage of its activity with whether the decision was right or wrong, but with whether a point of general public importance is raised. I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, to consider that. The Divisional Court

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have literally hundreds of cases coming up from the magistrates, and seeing the sort of Acts on which difficulties arise, I should have thought they were a good forum for considering that point.
On the other point, whether there is to be an appeal, I did say—and perhaps he will do me the honour of looking at my speech again to see how I put it—that there are only two possibilities: first, that although it is an important point it is really an unarguable point; and second, that there has been a decision which has stood for such a long time that to disturb it would not be a good thing. Those are really the points to be considered in the second limb of our condition.
On the other general point which the noble Lord made, I am sure he appreciates, even if I failed to make it clear, that the importance of this Bill is that in addition to altering the conditions of appeal from the Court of Criminal Appeal to the House of Lords and the Courts-Martial Appeal Court, it does for the first time create an appeal from the Divisional Court. I think he will agree that this is a great step forward and will be very helpful to us who have to legislate in a number of spheres that touch the ordinary individual closely.
The noble Lord said that he was rather worried by the different appeals in contempt of court. If he will do me the honour of looking for a moment at Clause 13 (2), I should like just to make quite clear what was in my mind. The noble Lord will appreciate that there is, first of all, the question of the appeal from another court; and paragraph (a) of Clause 13 (2) says:
"from an order or decision of any inferior court, other than a county court. …"
That is intended really to cover quarter sessions. That is the most important one, because quarter sessions have a right to commit for contempt in the face of quarter sessions, and it has for countless years, centuries, been the work and function of the Divisional Court to look after inferior courts of that kind and supervise their work. Therefore, I thought the proper appeal there was to the Divisional Court. In the next batch, paragraph (b), we have:
"from an order or decision of a county court, the Chancery Court of a County Palatine, a single judge of the High Court or an official referee, to the Court of Appeal."
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My Lords, I have no feelings about the criticism at all; I do not take it amiss. But I do not think my critics have appreciated the point which I had to deal with there, that so far as criminal matters are concerned, the Court of Criminal Appeal has always been the last court in the realm under the House of Lords. To have an appeal from the Court of Criminal Appeal, which is the final court of appeal in criminal matters, to the Court of Appeal itself (which, of course, is the court of appeal under the House of Lords in civil matters) would, I think, have been wrong, and might well have been thought derogatory to the position of the Court of Criminal Appeal. It followed from that—as I think the noble Lord will see—that the appeals for any contempt committed in the three ultimate courts of appeal except the House of Lords had to be to the House of Lords. That is the way that it was worked out; and I would ask—I am sure the noble Lord will comply—that he would look at it from that point of view.
He asked me about the various points that were raised in the leader in The Times to-day, and he very fairly drew attention to the fact that, after saying that the Bill does not deal with these points, they say that they are not points which they would expect to be dealt with by a Bill. The noble Lord was quite fair on that point. But are they really as difficult as all that? Take the first one—the question of the limits within which the judicial conduct of a judge may be criticised. I hope your Lordships will forgive me for reading, on that, one of the most famous passages in the law, because it is the product of a very dear friend of mine and a brother Bencher—one of the greatest judges I ever had the honour to appear before, Lord Atkin. In dealing with this I quote from Ambard v. The Attorney General of Trinidad and Tobago. reported in 36 Appeal Cases. The words are so remarkable that I venture to quote them, especially to Lord Citrine, because I think they are words that would appeal to a layman just as much as to any lawyer. He said:
"But whether the authority and position of an individual judge, or the due administration of justice, is concerned, no wrong is committed by any member of the public who exercises the ordinary right of criticising, in

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good faith, in private or public, the public act done in the seat of justice. The path of criticism is a public way: the wrong headed are permitted to err therein: provided that members of the public abstain from imputing improper motives to those taking part in the administration of justice, and are genuinely exercising a right of criticism, and not acting in malice or attempting to impair the administration of justice, they are immune. Justice is not a cloistered virtue: she must be allowed to suffer the scrutiny and respectful, even though outspoken, comments of ordinary men."
For what it is worth, I agree with every word that my late noble and learned friend said in that passage.
The next point was on the question of the propriety of commenting on the sentence of the court while there remains any possibility of appeal. I am not quite sure what the new answer to that passage is, but I thought it was perfectly clear from the King v. Davis, and that Mr. Justice Humphreys was right when he said
"There is ample authority in saying that during the time between the conviction of an accused person on indictment and his appeal to the court of criminal appeal the case has not ended at all, but is still sub judice, and the publication of improper material may amount to contempt of court."
I should have thought that that was obviously so. It is only ten days and, in the corresponding position, when we were considering the case to which the noble Lord referred, without mentioning any names, he will remember that his noble colleague who wanted to ask certain questions, at my request even in this House postponed the matter until the time for appeal had gone.
The next point is one which has frankly puzzled me, and that is the expression:
"The extent, if any, to which the fact that the broader public interest may have been served by publication of matter calculated to interfere with the course of justice in particular proceedings constitutes a defence against alleged contempt."
If that means anything—if it means what I understand it to mean—it means that we concede that there has been a publication of material calculated to interfere with the course of justice. I must say that I find great difficulty in that. If you admit that matter has been published which is calculated to interfere with the course of justice, what is the defence which the writer of the article had in mind? I do not want to
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say any more, because somebody may be able to read something more into it than I have, and develop it.
The fourth point the noble Lord will remember I dealt with in my opening statement—as to these words about having the power to do so, and I explained where that power came from. I only wanted to say that because I should not like the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, to think that these points had not been considered by us. As I say, after 25 years in Parliament I resent no criticism at all; my hide is as thick as would shame a rhinoceros. On the other hand, I always like Members of your Lordships' House to know that their points have been considered.
The noble Lord, Lord Chorley, raised certain points, and I should like to do my best to help him. I think he first asked me a question on Clause 3 of Lord Shawcross's Bill about the application for attachment and committal being heard in public. I think the answer is that such applications can be dealt with by Rules of Court. There does not seem to be any difficulty about dealing with these cases in public, even when they relate to a class of case which, under Clause 12 of the Bill, is heard in private. I do not think that Lord Chorley would want me to say that they must be heard in public; at any rate, I should like to reserve the position and to discuss it with him, because I think you might do a grave injustice by producing in public matters which have attracted attachment and committal. If somebody has said something utterly untrue and scandalous, then at any rate I want to reserve my opinion whether that should be given publicity, although I see the desirability of the fact of attachment and committal. Perhaps the noble Lord would consider that point.
He also wondered about the habeas corpus applications being routed to the Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division. Of course, in the ordinary way, as he knows, the application would be made to the Queen's Bench Judge in Chambers. Then, because he cannot refuse it under the Bill, he would have to refer it. I do not think there will be any difficulty if it is during the vacation and a Chancery Judge is sitting as vacation Judge. We do not think there would be any difficulty in going to the Queen's Bench Divisional Court. I did

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not check this point before I came in this afternoon. I think that that is what the Rules generally provide, but we certainly believe that that would be done. The point of my noble and learned friend Lord Parker of Waddington in regard to the Hastings case is that you have one High Court, and in those circumstances I do not think there would be any difficulty.
Then the noble Lord had a point with regard to extradition. As he knows, the procedure at the moment is that the accused person is required to be brought before a Metropolitan police magistrate who must release him unless a prima facie case of guilt is made out. If the magistrate commits him to prison, he must inform him that he will not be surrendered for fourteen days and that he has the right to apply for a writ of habeas corpus. The determination of that application, being a criminal matter, is at present final, but under Clauses 1 and 15 of the Bill an appeal on law will henceforth lie from a Divisional Court of the Queen's Bench Division to the House of Lords. The Divisional Court is not a court of appeal but investigates whether, on the evidence before him, the magistrate had authority and jurisdiction to commit—I think I have the words right. Thus any question on which a future appeal could be sought will always be a question of law, and, if it is one of general importance, capable of being brought to the House of Lords.
The other point about certiorari is really, if I may put it shortly, that the idea of Clause 16 of the Bill should be applied to civil cases. I think the noble Lord understood that that point wants a lot of consideration. He called it a "peripheral" point. I will certainly consider it, but the noble Lord will have noticed that in Clause 16 one has dealt with one point of certiorari—namely, the substitution of a new sentence. I hope I have dealt with the noble Lord's points. It is difficult to remember them all, but if he has anything in mind I hope he will interrupt me.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount has certainly dealt with them, though whether I am altogether satisfied with what he has said is perhaps another matter. No doubt he will look at what I have said, and I am sure that if something can be done, he will do it.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the noble Lord said he would be grateful for my views, and what I have said does not preclude my going into it, and perhaps being wiser, in the sense of getting nearer to the noble Lord's point of view, when I have considered the matter.
I believe that I have dealt with the main points of criticism raised, except for one point on which there has been a major division between speakers; that is, whether we are right in giving an appeal for contempt in the face of the court. As the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, disclosed, that is a matter on which my noble and learned friend Lord Shawcross feels extremely strongly. In parenthesis, I would say that I am sure I shall be speaking for your Lordships in every part of the House when I say how much we wish that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Shawcross, will have had a good and successful passage in his operation to-day and will soon be restored to his public duties. My Lords, there is that difference, and, frankly, I thought that the noble and learned and distinguished backers of the noble and learned Lord's Bill took the same view as he himself took in desiring this appeal in the case of contempt in the face of the court. I understood that the support for the Bill which disclosed itself was support for that point.
To-day I have listened very carefully to the speeches of the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chief Justice, and my noble and learned friends Lord Goddard and Lord Simonds. They have developed a strong case against the Bill of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Shawcross, on this point. I will of course consider it, but I believe that we have to give grave consideration to the quotation from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Shawcross, which the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, made to-day, which I have heard from the noble and learned Lord, and which, I suspect, has been heard by everyone who has discussed the matter with him: that we are the only country in the civilised world where such a state of things obtains (I think I have got it right), and that is a serious position which must be taken into account.
With regard to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, I was delighted that a layman should take sufficient interest in this subject to come into our debate.

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May I recall to him something which I believe will give him and the House pleasure? I remember the late Ernest Bevin saying to me, when we were colleagues in the war-time Government, that in his trade union experience he had always felt greatly indebted to the House of Lords for their approach to and consideration of workmen's compensation matters and matters concerned with the trade union movement. He probably said the same thing to the noble Lord, Lord Citrine. One of the objects of this Bill is to introduce new methods of approaching the House of Lords, and I should like the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, when considering the points I have mentioned, also to bear that in mind.
On the other point, I am not by any means belittling what he says. I had the same point put to me when I was in charge of the debate on the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, during the war, for altering workmen's compensation procedure—the point that lawyers are apt to underestimate the effect on ordinary people, and especially on people who have not a very varied experience of life, of merely coming into court. I should like, again as pure reminiscence—for I think it is long enough ago for me to quote it without offence to anyone—to say that I have cross-examined a good many people in the course of my life, probably as great a variety as any living person; but I have never found anyone more difficult to cross-examine than that pillar of the trade union movement, the late Mr. Havelock-Wilson. So when the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, talks of his own diffidence in coming into court I cannot help wondering about the diffidence felt by the court when they heard the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, give his evidence. I know he will take that comment as spoken in a friendly way.
LORD CITRINE: My Lords, if everybody was cross-examined by the noble and learned Viscount, or by lawyers, in the same way as he has explained these matters in your Lordships' House, nobody would be nervous.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, on reflection I do not know whether that is a compliment to my cross-examination. I only wanted to say that because we are delighted to hear the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, on this
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subject—and, I am sure, the view of the noble Lord, Lord Conesford—even though he made his point with such vigour. I repeat, I am sorry to have detained your Lordships. I am afraid that I have kept you rather a long time, but I wanted to try to answer the points raised, and adequately to express my gratitude for the reception the Bill has received. I hope that your Lordships will now give it a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

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