Sitting of 7 March 1960

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  CHANNEL TUNNEL
  Mr. E. L. Mallalieuasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, now that the investigations of the Franco-British group into the practical and economic possibilities of a tunnel under the Channel have been carried out, if he will approach the French Government with a view to facilitating its construction.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): The International Group who have commissioned the studies of the Tunnel project have not yet transmitted their report to Her Majesty's Government. We shall have to study it before taking any action.
  Mr. Mallalieu: Assuming that this report is favourable, both as to the engineering possibilities and as to the economic prospects, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman assure the House that any action taken by the Government will at least help and not hinder this great project for peace?
  Mr. Lloyd: Certainly, I can assure the hon. and learned Member that we shall study the report carefully and bear in mind the point which he has made.
  Mr. P. Noel-Baker: Will the Foreign Secretary assure us that we shall not have the objections on defence grounds which have always been put forward since the 1880's?
  Mr. Lloyd: That is certainly a consideration which is present to our minds.

  ATLANTIC CHARTER
  Mr. Footasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent Her Majesty's Government still adhere to the principles set out in the Atlantic Charter; and, in particular, how far they still support Article 3 which enjoins respect for the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live.
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: Her Majesty's Government adhere to the principles set out in the Atlantic Charter, including Article 3.
  Mr. Foot: Do the Government regard the principle set out in Article 3 as being of universal validity? If they do, is there any reason why it should not apply in Nyasaland, the Rhodesias, South-West Africa and the Union of South Africa?
  Mr. Lloyd: It is not for me to answer about those territories, but the hon. and learned Member will recollect that this

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  principle was more precisely defined in the Charter of the United Nations, in particular, in Articles 73 and 76. We abide by those articles.
  Mr. Zilliacus: Did not the Prime Minister on 17th July, 1958, proclaim in the House, in justification for the Jordan policy, the right to intervene on behalf of any Government which asked Her Majesty's Government to help them out against their own subjects, and is not that a violation of this article?
  Mr. Lloyd: I think that is getting some way away from the Question on the Order Paper. If the hon. Member will again study the provisions of the Charter dealing with non-self-governing territories, he will see that we certainly abide by what is said there.

  WORLD REFUGEE YEAR
  Mr. Pavittasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is yet able to say whether Her Majesty's Government will increase its contribution to the World Refugee Year Appeal, in view of the response of the general public, as exemplified by the information supplied by the Mayor of the Borough of Willesden and sent to him by the hon. Member for Willesden, West.
  Mr. Randallasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if Her Majesty's Government have yet decided to make a further contribution to the United Kingdom Appeal for World Refugee Year.
  Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I warmly welcome the magnificent response of the public to the World Refugee Year and have noted the success of the appeal in many districts, including Willesden. The year ends on 31st May. These facts will be taken into account in deciding, towards the end of the period, whether or not a further contribution should be made by the Government.
  Mr. Pavitt: While thanking the Secretary of State for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that if the present rate of public support continues it will make the Government's rate of contribution look rather niggardly? Will he tell me how much of the money has been given and when the remainder is likely to be given?
  Mr. Lloyd: I should want notice of the second part of the hon. Member's supplementary question. Answering the first part, whether we subscribe as individuals or as taxpayers, it all comes out of the national wealth.
  Mr. Randall: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that hon. Members are receiving many communications from all over the country and that considerable pressure is being applied in this respect? Is he aware that so far we have not had a negative reply to the Questions which have been asked on this subject? May I ask that in the near future we shall be given a positive and agreeable reply to the representations which have been made?
  Mr. Lloyd: I am glad that the hon. Member has noted that there has not been a negative reply, because that is indeed the case. We have warmly supported this great effort from the very beginning, and it has had a magnificent response. We hope that it will double its target. Whether one subscribes voluntarily as an individual or compulsorily as a taxpayer is a matter to be taken into consideration. We will, however, look again at the question of a further Government contribution towards the end of the year.

  GERMANY

    Victims of Nazism (Compensation)
    Sir L. Plummerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) what representations he has made to the Federal German Government, in the course of his current discussions concerning victims of Nazi persecution, as a result of their declaration that their proposed fund for compensating otherwise ineligible victims is to be a hardship fund;
    (2) what reply he has received to representations he has made to the Federal German Government as a result of their decision that stateless victims of Nazi persecution, rightly or wrongly suspected of sabotage in occupied countries, are to be ineligible for compensation from their proposed fund for otherwise ineligible victims.
    Mr. Randallasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what conclusions have now been reached in the

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    negotiations concerning compensation for the victims of Nazi persecution; and what proposals have been made for the setting up of a fund by the German Federal Government.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: As far as British subjects who were victims of Nazism are concerned, I am afraid I cannot yet add to the reply which my right hon. Friend gave to the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Mr. Janner) on 10th February.
    With regard to compensation for stateless and other ineligible victims, I understand that the Federal Government are at present examining various proposals in this connection and are hoping shortly to come to a decision.
    Sir L. Plummer: Is the Foreign Secretary aware that decent opinion is shocked by the subterfuges of the Federal German Government in making it as difficult as possible for the victims to get proper compensation? In his conversations with the German Government, will he make it clear that we are not asking that allowances should be made on the basis of hardship, but that justice should be done to these people?
    Mr. Lloyd: I do not accept what the hon. Member says about subterfuges. On previous occasions when I have answered him, I have said that I thought that ethical rather than legal considerations should prevail, and I have hopes that the matter will be regarded in that light.
    Mr. Randall: Since the victims of Nazi persecution are the responsibility of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that if such a fund is set up it would be better to have it placed under the responsibility of the High Commissioner for Refugees rather than under the responsibility of the Federal Government? Will he put forward that view in his further discussions on this matter?
    Mr. Lloyd: That is a matter which I should like to consider. I could give a more precise answer to the question if I had more notice of it.

    Captured Documents
    Mr. Elwyn Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, for a period of twelve months, he will
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    arrange for the original captured German documents, jointly owned by the United States and British Governments and presently kept in Washington, to be transferred to London and made available for study by English and European scholars, historians and research workers.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: No, Sir.
    Mr. Jones: I understand from the Foreign Secretary's answer to an earlier Question that a sorting-out process is now taking place and that some of these documents are being retained for security reasons and the rest returned to Germany. Is it not desirable that before that return takes place British scholars and others should have an opportunity of examining these documents in view of present conditions in Germany, since the consequence of their return to Germany may merely be that they are conveniently pulped?
    Mr. Lloyd: I do not accept the hon. and learned Gentleman's insinuation about the effect of their return to Germany, or what he indicated about conditions in Germany at present. What is happening is that the work of sorting out these documents is going on. About 15,000 cubic feet of documents still remain to be dealt with, about 9,000 cubic feet having been dealt with and returned. Microfilms are made of all the documents before they are returned. The precise purpose of this is to ensure that the material contained in them shall be available for suitable use.
    Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what arrangements Her Majesty's Government have made with the United States Government for the original captured German documents to be available for responsible research to those wishing to examine them.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: There are various collections of these documents. The collections in this country and in Washington are under joint British and United States control; and there is also the Berlin Documents Centre, which is under United States control. In so far as a general answer can be given about facilities for research, applications by qualified research workers are considered on their merits, in cases where access for this purpose is not already unrestricted.
    Mr. Janner: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman use his good offices, if he possibly can, to see to it that the Berlin Documents Centre, which contains official documents from Nazi official files, should be open to responsible people who want to examine the documents, in the interests of removing Nazi influence and ensuring that those who were responsible for Nazi crimes shall be properly brought to justice?
    Mr. Lloyd: The Documents Centre is under United States control, and the United States authorities, as I told the House on 10th February, have stated that they will not provide information from the documents except in answer to requests made through official channels. It is for Her Majesty's Government to decide what applications they will sponsor from British subjects for access to such documents. That is where we stand in the matter.

    Reunification
    Mr. Zilliacusasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the United States proposal for a plebiscite to settle the future of Germany, he will propose consultations with the United States Administration about the joint policy of the principal Allies in the war in deciding on the terms of the peace treaty and the framework of collective security and disarmament within which the unification of Germany is to take place.
    Mr. Lloyd: Consultations on these matters are already taking place.
    Mr. Zilliacus: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman be good enough to refer to what he told the House on previous occasions, that Her Majesty's Government agree with the proposition that the reunification of Germany can take place only within a framework agreed and guaranteed by the Powers?
    Mr. Lloyd: I am not sure that that is the Question on the Order Paper. If the hon. Gentleman will put it down, I will endeavour to answer it.

    Brussels Treaty
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why Her Majesty's Government agreed, in the revised 1954 Brussels Treaty, to the prohibition on the manufacture of
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    atomic, biological and chemical weapons by the Federal Government of Germany being limited to German territory.
    Mr. Lloyd: The prohibition to which the right hon. and learned Member refers was, in fact, a voluntary undertaking. It is true that it only refers specifically to the territory of the Federal Republic. There was no question then (nor is there now) of a German Government wanting to manufacture these weapons outside Germany.
    Mr. Henderson: Was not the British public led to understand at the time that the Federal Government of West Germany—voluntarily, as the right hon. Gentleman said, but absolutely— gave up its right to manufacture nuclear weapons? Is it intended to amend the Brussels Treaty so as to extend the prohibition to territories outside German territory?
    Mr. Lloyd: I think the right hon. Gentleman must be satisfied with my answer. There was no question then and there is no question now of the German Government manufacturing these things either on German territory or outside.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is the Foreign Secretary aware that there is a report that German soldiers are to be based on and to do certain exercises in this country? Is he aware that our germ factory at Porton is under the control of the War Office? Will he give an assurance that none of these German soldiers will be studying germ warfare in this country?
    Mr. Lloyd: I cannot always follow the supplementaries of the hon. Member. Is this an invitation to an exercise in Ayrshire?
    Mr. Hughes: In view of that contemptible answer, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Berlin Air Corridors (High Altitude Flying)
    Mr. Healeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what official discussions he has had with the Governments of the United States of America and France regarding the height at which Western aircraft should fly to Berlin.
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if agreement has yet been reached with other Allied Governments about high-altitude flying into Berlin; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I have had discussions with the United States and French Governments and I am aware of the reports which have appeared in the Press. As I said in the House on 20th April last year, Her Majesty's Government hold the view that Allied aircraft have the right to fly into Berlin along the air corridors at any altitude. The modern aircraft coming into service everywhere have higher operational altitudes than do the aircraft which have been in use hitherto. The question at issue is primarily a practical one, not a political one. I hope that it will so be regarded by all affected.
    Mr. Healey: Can the Foreign Secretary assure us that he is now taking the same position as he took at the time when he answered the Question to which he now refers, namely, that while maintaining our right to fly at any height over Berlin, it would still be desirable for the Western Powers to avoid any provocative physical assertion of that right until the Summit Conference?
    Mr. Lloyd: I think it would be desirable for both sides to avoid any physical assertion of any rights. I think it a technical problem and hope it can be dealt with in the spirit of commonsense as a technical problem.
    Mr. Grimond: Can the Foreign Secretary say whether or not there is an intention to fly now at over 10,000 feet? I sympathise with the view that if it can be postponed until after the Summit Conference it should be.
    Mr. Lloyd: This has all arisen out of some leak somewhere. I hope it will be dealt with as a technical matter to be discussed between the air safety control authorities on both sides.

    INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS (DRAFT RULES)
    Mr. Elwyn Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why no official reply, other than an acknowledgement, has been sent to the memorandum of the International Committee
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    of the Red Cross, received in May 1958, asking for Her Majesty's Government's views on the Draft Rules for the Limitation of the Dangers incurred by the Civilian Population in Times of War, designed to restrict the use of nuclear weapons, in view of the fact that the preparation and furtherance of the Draft Rules received the approval of the Government during the 19th International Red Cross Conference held at New Delhi in October 1957.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: These Rules were transmitted for consideration, and we are considering them. As the hon. and learned Gentleman knows, we believe that the banning of the use of nuclear weapons should be discussed in the context of general disarmament.
    Mr. Jones: As two years have elapsed since a Government representative supported these Rules in the International Red Cross Conference, is it not at the very least discourteous not to have given an answer to the memorandum in the meantime? Is the trouble due to the fact that the adoption of the proposed Article 14 would, in conditions of a European conflict, be tantamount to the prohibition of the use of nuclear weapons, because of the inevitable injury to civilians that the use of such weapons would cause?
    Mr. Lloyd: The point made in the second part of the hon. and learned Gentleman's question is precisely the purport of the second part of my original Answer. As for the first part of his question, as was pointed out at the time, there are many complicated legal matters to be examined. These Rules were sent to Governments in draft, not necessarily with the idea of getting a reply but for consideration. If the hon. and learned Member will read again the speech made by the United Kingdom representative at the time, he will see the accuracy of what I am saying.

    MIDDLE EAST (TRIPARTITE AGREEMENT)
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what recent consultations he has had with the United States and French Governments regarding the implimentation of the Tripartite Agreement.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: None, Sir. I have nothing to add to what I told the House on 17th February.
    Mr. Grimond: In view of the doubt about the interpretation of this agreement now, will the Foreign Secretary, if and when a suitable moment arises, consider making some proposals for a new agreement to guarantee peace in the Middle East?
    Mr. Lloyd: That is a very wide proposition to deal with by way of an answer to a supplementary question. The realities of the present position are that, by reason of the United Nations' responsibilities and the part that the Secretary-General has been playing, we feel that the forum of the United Nations is the correct one in which consultation should take place at present.
    Mr. Healey: In view of the fact that the Jordan Government have recently declared that they will fight on the side of the United Arab Republic if that Republic becomes involved in war with Israel in regard to the frontier problem east of Galilee, can the Foreign Secretary say whether the Government recognise any obligations for British intervention in such a situation?
    Mr. Lloyd: The hon. Member knows that the more I say publicly about the Tripartite Declaration and any possible action under it the more difficulty it makes in the Middle East, and the more our statements and actions are open to suspicion. It is of no benefit to the interests of stability in the area to explore this matter further. I have stated our position previously, and I have repeated it to the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). I would ask him to leave the matter where it is.
    Mr. Healey: I was not relating this question directly to the Tripartite Agreement, but it is a matter of importance not only to this country but to the peace of the world that the British Government should state whether or not they recognise any obligation to intervene in case of war in the Middle East.
    Mr. Lloyd: I have stated on a previous occasion what I regard as our obligations. I have stated them both in terms of this Declaration and with regard to the Charter of the United Nations. That remains our position.
    Mr. Shinwell: Has not the Foreign Secretary observed that Colonel Nasser has recently denied the validity of the Tripartite Agreement and said that it is merely an aspect of imperialism which he rejects in its entirety?
    Mr. Lloyd: Certainly he has said that. He made a speech which was provoked by a statement made in this House in answer to Questions asked. We have stated our position, and we had much better leave it as we have stated it.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: Since the interpretation of the Tripartite Agreement given by the Foreign Secretary is not in accord with its plain meaning, or with the interpretation given by the United States, would it not be far better to have further consultations?
    Mr. Lloyd: I find it very difficult to please the Opposition in this matter. It was suggested by one hon. Member that because of what Colonel Nasser has said the Agreement has no effect, and by another that because of what I said we should have further consultations. It would be better to leave the matter exactly as I stated it the last time I was questioned.

    WESTERN EUROPEAN UNION (NUCLEAR WEAPONS)
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state the outcome of the Western European Union meeting concerning the possession and joint control of nuclear weapons.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: The Assembly of Western European Union, which met from 30th November to 3rd December, adopted a Recommendation a part of which proposed the establishment of a joint European Strategic Nuclear Force.
    Mr. Allaun: Although the stated aim was to avoid the spread of nuclear weapons to further countries, such as Western Germany, does not the Foreign Minister think that the probable result will be the exact opposite?
    Mr. Lloyd: The hon. Member ought to argue that matter out with certain of his colleagues, such as the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley), the

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    hon. Member for Gateshead, West (Mr. Randall) and the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) who voted in favour of the Resolution.

    UNITED NATIONS (ISRAEL AND UNITED ARAB REPUBLIC)
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will instruct his representative at the United Nations Organisation to propose that the Security Council should consider the present situation on the Israel-United Arab Republic borders and the continued refusal of the Government of Egypt to allow Israeli ships and cargoes to pass through the Suez Canal.
    Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the nature of the current action being taken by Her Majesty's Government within the United Nations to ensure for the ships of all nations the application of the right of free transit through the Suez Canal.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: In the last few days tension on the Israel-United Arab Republic borders seems to have diminished in spite of the incidents to which there has been reference today. In the circumstances, the action suggested by the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not seem to be necessary. As regards Suez Canal transit, this is still being handled by the Secretary-General of the United Nations.
    Mr. Henderson: Is it not time Chat the Security Council took some positive action to ensure that the Government of Egypt observe the provisions of the 1951 Resolution? Would it not be possible for United Nations observers to be placed on Israeli ships seeking to pass through the Suez Canal? Further, has not the time come for contingents of the United Nations Emergency Force to patrol the borders between Israel and the United Arab Republic?
    Mr. Lloyd: The difficulty about what the right hon. and learned Member refers to as positive action by the United Nations is one of enforcement. One has to proceed in this matter by a process of consultation with all the people principally concerned, using the very great influence of the Secretary-General of the United Nations in this matter. At
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    present, I do not think that a meeting of the Security Council, to which the Question refers, would advance the causes which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has in mind.
    Mr. Janner: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman also take into consideration the fact that the granting of moneys by the World Bank to a country which refuses absolutely to allow the Canal to be used for international purposes is entirely wrong and that some steps should be taken to prevent that money being utilised for the purpose of stopping international shipping from going through the Canal? Why cannot the Foreign Secretary do something in that direction in order to prevent instead of encouraging an abuse of the Canal facilities so far as international matters are concerned?
    Mr. Lloyd: I do not want to relate an answer to a supplementary question to the events of some time ago. All I would say on the specific point of a loan by the International Bank is that I think the hon. Gentleman should reflect carefully on the wisdom or unwisdom of attaching political conditions to such a loan. I think that is a wider issue which I suggest the hon. Member should carefully consider.
    Mr. A. Henderson: Will the Foreign Secretary do me the courtesy of saying whether he will consider the suggestion contained in my supplementary question, that United Nations observers might well be put on Israeli ships, and that the situation is such that United Nations observers should be put on the borders of Israel and the United Arab Republic? Will he consider that?
    Mr. Lloyd: I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will absolve me from any desire to be discourteous. I will consider carefully any suggestions which he may put forward.

    EGYPT (SEQUESTRATED PROPERTY)
    Mr. W. Yatesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many sequestrated properties have now been returned to their owners under the terms of the Anglo-Egyptian Financial Agreement; how many properties are still in

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    the hands of the Sequestrator General; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Lloyd: As my answer is rather long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Yates: In view of previous statements, and in advance of any opportunity of seeing the reply, may I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend will bear in mind the undertaking of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that if sufficient funds are not available to pay British business men who have lost their property, the Foreign Secretary will bring the matter before the House?
    Mr. Lloyd: Certainly we shall bear in mind previous statements which have been made.
    Following is the answer:
    According to the latest figures supplied by the Sequestrator General to the British Diplomatic Mission in Cairo, the position was that, by the end of February, 4,716 applications for desequestration had been submitted, 2,655 had been accepted; release agreements had been signed, or were ready for signature, in 1,526 cases (1,346 individuals and 180 companies); while 253 of the remainder were cases where the applications submitted had been found to be incomplete or insufficiently documented, or where further information was required from the claimants. The normal interval between the signature of a release agreement and the actual return of the property to its owner or his representative is between three days and six weeks according to the complexity of the case. But unfortunately it has not been possible to obtain detailed or reliable figures regarding the number of properties actually returned.

    HOLY CITY OF JERUSALEM
    Mr. W. Yatesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when, and on what occasion, he last requested Her Majesty's Government's representative at the United Nations to draw attention to the fact that the United Nations resolution calling for international status for the Holy City of Jerusalem has not been implemented.
    Mr. Lloyd: I have not instructed our representative at the United Nations to raise this.
    Mr. Yates: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that it is all very well to ask our representatives to raise matters concerning the Suez Canal
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    and Israeli shipping passing through it, but that Israel has been condemned by the mixed Armistice Commission over the recent incidents in Syria and also branded as an aggressor? Would he, therefore, consider carefully asking Israel to honour one or two of her obligations under the United Nations Charter?
    Mr. Lloyd: That goes very wide of the Question of the Order Paper, which deals with the international status of the Holy City of Jerusalem. The United Kingdom voted against that Resolution —I think it was on 9th December, 1949 —because we said we could not vote for any solution which was not acceptable both to Israel and Jordan. That remains our position.
    Mr. Yates: I find the replies given by the Foreign Secretary about the Resolution of the United Nations concerning Israel and the Arab States to be unsatisfactory and beg leave to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    CYPRUS (SITUATION)
    Mr. Healeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a further statement on Cyprus.
    Mr. Donnellyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a further statement on the progress of the Cyprus negotiations.
    Mr. Lloyd: The discussions in Cyprus, in which my hon. Friend the Undersecretary of State for the Colonies is taking part, are continuing.
    Mr. Healey: Can the Foreign Secretary tell the House why he is not prepared to make a declaration on the Cypriot administration of base areas which will be legally irrevocable, and why he will not agree that the bases should revert to the Cyprus Republic in the case of Britain having no further use for them? Would he agree that the position taken by the Government on these issues seems to be based entirely on considerations of national prestige and is actually damaging to national interests?
    Mr. Lloyd: I have tried to suggest to the the hon. Gentleman that it does not further the success of the negotiations

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    when the Opposition constantly take a view inimical to that of the Government— [Laughter.]—it does not; it delays the results. The discussions are proceeding and a measure of progress has been made. The last time I referred to some part of their content I was rebuked for revealing confidential discussions and, having received that rebuke from the hon. Member, I have no intention of saying more than I have said, which is that discussions are continuing and some progress is being made.
    Mr. Kershaw: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that, judging from the supplementary questions from hon. Gentlemen opposite, it would appear that there are sources of information open to the Opposition which, are not open to back bench Members on this side of the House? Will my right hon. and learned Friend arrange to make an equal division of the intelligence regarding confidential negotiations now going on so that we on this side of the House may ask intelligent supplementary questions as well as hon. Members opposite?
    Mr. Lloyd: There was an important inference in my hon. Friend's supplementary question about intelligent supplementary questions from hon. Members opposite, but I do not control all the sources of information.

    NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANISATION (EXERCISE)
    Mr. R. Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what information he has received regarding the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation's recent exercise, Big Deal, by the Portuguese and United States air forces on 9th and 10th February, for the defence of the Iberian peninsula.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: That was not a North Atlantic Treaty Organisation exercise.
    Mr. Edwards: The information is that there was an important exercise for the defence of Western Europe outside the control of N.A.T.O. in which forces of the Portuguese, American and Spanish Armies participated. Is not it an important matter for this Parliament that the defence of the West is supported by Fascist forces which do not accept de-
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    mocratic principles? Does this mean that West Europe is now expendable up to the Spanish Pyrenees?
    Mr. Lloyd: I do not think that any of the inferences drawn by the hon. Member are correct.

    DISARMAMENT COMMISSION
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will consider supporting at the ten-nation disarmament commission the new proposals of the Canadian Government for the ending of nuclear tests.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: The Canadian Government's opposition to further nuclear tests is well known to Her Majesty's Government but we have no knowledge of any new Canadian proposals in the sense implied in the Question.
    Mr. Allaun: I was referring to those made by the Prime Minister of Canada two or three weeks ago. In view of the 18 months' deadlock at Geneva and the innumerable series of evasions and objections both by East and West, does not the Foreign Secretary think that these new Canadian proposals, to stop all nuclear tests without becoming involved in a long series of qualifications, are sensible?
    Mr. Lloyd: I do not think the hon. Gentleman has got the point of view of the Canadian Government correctly In a statement I have read, the Minister of External Affairs said control was an important part and that stopping tests is important. That is exactly our position. We wish to have tests stopped, but we wish to have proper control. I do not accept that there has been 18 months of delay. Although the conference has proceeded slowly, it has made steady progress towards objectives which, I think, will meet our point of view and that of the Canadian Government.
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent agreement has been reached between the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation powers on the disarmament proposals to be put before the ten-nation disarmament commission on 15th March.
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will

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    now make a statement on the disarmament proposals which Her Majesty's Government intends to put before the ten-nation disarmament commission on 15th March.
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what level the armed forces of the five permanent members of the Security Council are to be reduced in the first stage of the proposals to be submitted by Her Majesty's Government to the forthcoming disarmament conference.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: These proposals are still under discussion between the Five Western members of the Ten-Power Committee (United States, France, Canada, Italy and the United Kingdom), and my right hon. Friend the Minister of State is going to Paris tonight to continue these discussions.
    Mr. Swingler: While thanking the Foreign Secretary for that reply, may I ask if he has seen the report in some of today's newspapers about the discussions in the American Senate criticising the lack of clarity and the confusion between departments about Western disarmament policy? Considering that there is only one week to go before proposals have to be prepared, may we be assured by the Foreign Secretary that some proposals will be put forward at any rate by the United Kingdom on 15th March, and that they will be comprehensive proposals for all-round disarmament?
    Mr. Lloyd: I think the hon. Member can be assured that proposals will be put forward. I have a very clear idea of the nature of the proposals I should like to see put forward, and the Minister of State, who goes to Paris tonight, is fully in my confidence in this matter.
    Mr. Rankin: On the specific point in regard to the level of armed forces, could the Foreign Secretary say just a further word? Is it not the case that we are aiming at a reduction to 489,000 by 1961, which represents a big decrease from the figure of 625,000 originally canvassed in these discussions? Could we not seek to secure among the other four members of the Security Council a proportionate reduction?
    Mr. Lloyd: Pending the outcome of these discussions, it would be unwise for
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    me to get involved in consideration of a particular matter such as that. The hon. Member will, I know, draw consolation from the fact that we have declared our purpose of bringing down the armed forces of all countries to the level necessary for internal security purposes.
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what conclusions he has reached regarding the advisability of publication of the proceedings of the forthcoming conference on disarmament.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: Automatic publication inevitably leads to propaganda speeches. It would not, therefore, in my provisional view help the Committee to a successful result if its full proceedings were made public day by day. I am inclined to prefer the procedure, adopted in the nuclear tests negotiations, of a brief daily communiqué. This is, however, a matter upon which we must have regard to the views of the other participants and it will, no doubt, be discussed as soon as the conference convenes.
    Mr. Warbey: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware, from what work he has seen of the recent proceedings of the nuclear test conference, that this procedure leads to leakages with a much distorted version of what actually takes place? Would it not be far better to have full publication of all full meetings so that the people of the interested countries know what is being said and proposed in their names by their Governments in sufficient time to be able to intervene if necessary if things are not going on well?
    Mr. Lloyd: I fully admit that the present procedure adopted in the nuclear test conference is not perfect. There are disadvantages, but on the whole I think it is better than having a debate in public from day to day. I am not at all certain that all the interventions that we should get from various people, whom I will not now specify, would always be helpful.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: Even if the meeting is held in private, will there not be a great advantage in the rapid publication of the speeches as corrected by the delegates? Is there not great force in what my hon. Friend has said? With ten

    21
    delegations in the room—probably 80 people—there will be leaks and angled versions from many quarters, with inevitable misunderstandings and probably rancour.
    Mr. Lloyd: I think there is force in what the right hon. Gentleman said. It is, in many ways, a choice of evils. For example, the debates which take place in the United Nations in public which are fully reported—I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman would say that they have really advanced the cause of agreement in these matters. We have to get some kind of procedure going which will be capable of being a negotiation, and that means an element of privacy. I think, therefore, that we had better stick to this idea in which a certain amount is said. There are, I am afraid, inevitable leakages, but it does admit still of there being negotiations. Whatever has leaked from the nuclear conference, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that there have been considerable periods when genuine negotiations have been going on.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: While everyone would admit that there must be private conversations, as there are conversations behind your Chair, Mr. Speaker, is it not also true that there are great advantages in the people knowing what their delegates are saying in their name? How can the full United Nations Commission be properly informed unless the records are published at regular intervals?
    Mr. Lloyd: I should like to consider carefully what the right hon. Gentleman has put forward. I think myself that contemporaneous or simultaneous publication would be a mistake, but that is different from what he is suggesting, that periodically there should be a resume or statement on what has been going on. I will look at that.
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs at what stage he proposes that the People's Republic of China shall be associated with the discussions on general disarmament under international control.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: This is an important point, but it would be premature for me to make a public statement on the matter.
    Mr. Rankin: Would not the right hon. and learned Gentleman go so far as to agree with me that we cannot expect China to accept the rules of the conference if we are not giving her admission to it, and that association would not serve the purpose that full admission would?
    Mr. Lloyd: I have said that the hon. Gentleman has put forward an important point which I think is very relevant to this discussion, but it would be premature to say anything more about it today.

    SPANISH FOREIGN MINISTER (VISIT)
    Mr. R. Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what arrangements have been made for the visit of Senor Castrella, the Spanish Foreign Minister, to the United Kingdom; and what is the purpose of the visit.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I hope that the Spanish Foreign Minister will accept my invitation to visit the United Kingdom this year. No definite arrangements have yet been made. The purpose of the visit will be to improve relations between the two countries.
    Mr. Edwards: Is the Foreign Secretary aware that this gentleman received the Iron Cross from Adolf Hitler and that he fought in the Blue Division against Allied Forces? Would the Foreign Secretary not agree that had Spain not been technically neutral this man would have been tried as a war criminal? Will the Foreign Secretary read the book by this man in which he states that the Second World War had been planned during the Civil War in Spain? If he reads the book, he may take a different view about 1936?
    Mr. Lloyd: The hon. Member is talking about things which happened a long time ago—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] —indeed, that is so—and we have to live in the world as it is today. This gentleman is the Foreign Minister of Spain, and it is my duty to do the best I can with him to improve relations between our two countries, an objective I should have thought hon. Members on both sides of the House would wish to attain.
    Mr. Doughty: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the visits of Foreign Ministers from friendly countries of Western Europe will always be welcomed by the people of this country?

    B.B.C. OVERSEAS SERVICES
    Mr. Worsleyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the British Broadcasting Corporation's Overseas Service is being cut, including broadcasts to the Far East; and whether he is satisfied that these cuts are in the national interest.
    Mr. Mayhewasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent it is the policy of Her Majesty's Government to reduce the overseas broadcasts of the British Broadcasting Corporation.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: Departments of Her Majesty's Government prescribe the languages and hours of broadcasting of the British Broadcasting Corporation's External Services. The cost is met by a grant-in-aid which is included in the total sum authorised for expenditure on overseas information services. Within this sum, it is necessary to adjust our overseas information effort, including overseas broadcasting, from time to time as circumstances change. The adjustments include some small decreases and increases. I believe that the action decided upon is right in the circumstances.
    Mr. Worsley: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that one of the decreases he mentioned is the Thai service, which is to be totally abolished? Is he further aware that Chinese Communist broadcasts to Thailand are being increased? Will he reconsider the decision in this matter in view of the fact that the overseas services of the B.B.C. are our best form of overseas publicity?
    Mr. Lloyd: I have every sympathy with the point of view of my hon. Friend, but one has to try to cover one's expenditures—one's commitments— within the level of expenditure agreed. Having regard to that fact, I think we have taken the best course open to us, and I do not believe there will be the serious consequences which my hon. Friend considers possible from the ending of the Thai service.
    Mr. Mayhew: Is not the first point in the reply of the Foreign Secretary a little misleading? Is it not a fact that there has been some inescapable rise in cost in the B.B.C. and, as a result, these services have been considerably reduced? Is there not rather a lack of balance in trying to save a few thousand pounds in this country on something which is effective when we are spending hundreds of millions on defence projects of much less real value to us?
    Mr. Lloyd: That is a point of view for which hon. Members would expect me to have considerable sympathy. In fact, there is to be a considerable increase in the ceiling for information next year. One has to have regard to the nature of the increases and decreases, but, on balance, this is a reasonable solution.
    Sir G. Nicholson: Is it not a false economy not to have more broadcasts in Thai when there is keen interest in this country in Thailand and a desire for knowledge of British views? Is not the money we spend on Far Eastern broadcasts some of the best-spent money out of the national expenditure? Will my right hon. and learned Friend look again at this matter?
    Mr. Lloyd: One has to try to come to a balanced view on this. I should like to spend all the money available and have constant broadcasts twenty-four hours a day, but I am not sure that that would improve our interests. We want to have the maximum benefit, but one has to have some regard to what is financially possible. We have to strike a balance and I think I am right in saying that the broadcasts to Burma are being increased. We have to consider other ways of bringing our influence to bear, and I think that on balance this is a fair decision.
    Mr. Mayhewasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the estimated cost to public funds of the British Broadcasting Corporation's transmissions to Persia, Japan, and Thailand.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I am informed by the British Broadcasting Corporation that the direct cost of the Thai Service was £8,940 per annum and the direct costs of the Japanese and Persian Services are at present £14,829 and £15,700 per annum, respectively. But a realistic

    25
    gross figure would have to take into account the overheads which are difficult to apportion among the individual vernacular services.
    Mr. Mayhew: Are these not comparatively small sums? Is the Foreign Secretary aware that on both sides of the House there is a feeling that these broadcasts are effective at comparatively small cost? Why should we not develop and expand, instead of cutting them in this way?
    Mr. Lloyd: The cut in the Thai services amounts to about a quarter of an hour per day. We have to look, as I think the hon. Gentleman in his time had to look, at the whole of the budget to try to fit it into the financial ceiling available to make the best balance between the various services that one may run. That has been done in this case.

    INTERNATIONAL SECURITY FORCE
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the progress of discussions with other countries regarding the establishment of an executive body of high calibre, with an international security force answerable to it, to keep the peace when general disarmament has been effected.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: Not yet, Sir.
    Mr. Warbey: When putting forward proposals for the important idea of the International Police Force to keep the peace when total disarmament is effected, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman avoid prejudicing the idea by confusing it with the rôle of the International Control Commission for disarmament, or attempting to substitute for the executive organ of the United Nations some other executive body which is not under their control?
    Mr. Lloyd: I think that the hon. Gentleman has made two valid points. What we want is not a body which is completely hamstrung by the veto, or a question of a two-thirds majority, but a body which has enough executive authority of its own to take certain action. At the same time, one must not frighten people that that body will take too much on itself. All these matters
    26
    have to be worked out in discussions, because different points of view are held by the leading nations.

    CZECHOSLOVAKIA (REVEREND ODRICH TRNKA)
    Mr. Doughtyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps he is taking to obtain the necessary permission from the Czechoslovak Government for the wife and children of the Reverend Odrich Trnka, a British subject, to leave Czechoslovakia and join him here.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: Her Majesty's Embassy in Prague have urged the Czechoslovak authorities on humanitarian grounds to permit Mrs. Trnkova and her children to join Mr. Trnka in this country.
    Mr. Doughty: Is the Foreign Secretary aware that this couple have been separated for about ten years? As she is a British subject, will he see that these representations are continued so that they may be reunited?
    Mr. Lloyd: As my hon. and learned Friend knows, the trouble is that the lady is question has Czechoslovakian as well as British nationality, and that the children are not British. However, we will continue to do the best we can to help.

    SPAIN
    Mr. Zilliacusasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will give an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will oppose the admission to, or association with, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation or Western European Union of the Spanish Government, either as a condition for granting Germany firing range, storage, etc., facilities in Spain or for any other purpose.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: No, Sir. Membership of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and the Western European Union, or association with them, is a matter for all the member Governments not just for Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Zilliacus: Can the Foreign Secretary give an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will vote against any such

    27
    proposal? We have our responsibility, and in fact we have a veto power on it. Does he propose to use it?
    Mr. Lloyd: I am certainly not going to make any such declaration in advance. We will judge any such application or suggestion from the point of view of military necessity and political wisdom. I can promise the hon. Gentleman that, but I am not going to specify in advance what particular action we shall take.
    Sir T. Moore: Can we not keep a sense of balance on this matter? Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that it was this country—Spain— through its leader General Franco which resisted the blandishments and threats of Hitler and thereby saved the Mediterranean for the Allies and made the North African invasion possible and successful?
    Mr, Lloyd: I think that my hon. Friend is quite right in saying that the arguments are not all on one side.
    Mr. Healey: I put this question quite seriously to the Foreign Secretary. Is he aware that the admission of Spain to either N.A.T.O. or Western European Union would, in the view of an overwhelming number of people in this country and outside, destroy the political validity of those organisations?
    Mr. Lloyd: I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman says. It would be very foolish for anyone holding my position to say that in perpetuity he is going to exercise a veto on an application by a particular country.

    NUMBER OF ACCIDENTS AND DEATHS REPORTED TO THE FACTORY INSPECTORATE

    —

    1958

    1959 (provisional figures)

    January-September

    Whole Year

    January-September

    Whole Year

    Accidents

    Accidents

    Deaths

    Accidents

    Accidents

    Deaths

    Building operations

    11,155

    15,017

    207

    11,198

    15,435

    171

    Works of engineering construction

    1,675

    2,329

    51

    2,122

    2,886

    41

    The figures for deaths are included in the number of accidents for the whole year.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Building Workers (Casualties)
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Labour how many men employed in building operations and in work of engineering construction were killed or injured in 1959 and 1958; and whether he will give comparative figures for the initial nine months of each year.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Peter Thomas): As the reply contains a table of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Dr. Stross: Would it be fair to say, however, that the trends have been for the figures to rise in the last few years? If that be so, will the Parliamentary Secretary and his right hon. Friend seriously consider increasing the number of fully trained inspectors over and above the seven now engaged to see to this work, because they are obviously very much needed?
    Mr. Thomas: In answer to the last part of the supplementary question, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are keeping that matter under very close observation. In answer to the first part of the supplementary question, which dealt with numbers, there has been some increase in the number of accidents over the last year, but I am happy to say that the number of fatal accidents is down.
    Following is the table of figures:

    Industrial Training
    Mr. Prenticeasked the Minister of Labour how many appointments have been made under the scheme of the Industrial Training Council to appoint training officers to help with the organisation of group apprenticeship schemes.
    Mr. P. Thomas: The number of posts for training officers created so far under the Industrial Training Council Scheme is five; and four appointments have already been made. These posts are concerned not with group apprenticeship schemes alone but with the setting up of training schemes in industry generally.
    Mr. Prentice: Are not five training officers hopelessly too few to perform the tasks which need to be performed in the field of group apprenticeship schemes and the other matters which the hon. Gentleman mentioned? Will he say if and when further appointments are likely to be made?
    Mr. Thomas: Further appointments are likely to be made as soon as the demand for this service from industry grows.

    Youth Employment Service
    Mr. Prenticeasked the Minister of Labour what proposals he has to improve the training schemes for new entrants to the Youth Employment Service.
    Mr. P. Thomas: I understand that discussions will take place shortly on this question between the Central Youth Employment Executive and the local authority associations.
    Mr. Prentice: Will the Parliamentary Secretary agree that the recent Report of the National Youth Employment Council emphasised the need for much better training facilities for members of the Youth Employment Service?
    Mr. Thomas indicated assent.
    Mr. Prentice: In particular, can he say how many places the Ministry is now taking for the excellent one-year course organised by the Kent County Council?
    Mr. Thomas: The Ministry gives at the moment five scholarships to students at that course.
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Labour how many youth employment offices still remain below the standard considered to be proper by the National Youth Employment Council; and when these sub-standard offices will be modernised.
    Mr. P. Thomas: No definite standards have been, or could be laid down, and the process of inspection and modernisation is a continuous one. I cannot therefore give a precise answer to the Question, but I can assure the hon. Gentleman that progress is being made, though not so rapidly as I should wish.
    Mr. Boyden: In view of the very considerable unemployment amongst juveniles, especially boys, and the very great pressure that is sometimes brought to bear on them to take any sort of job, can he not bring very strong pressure to bear to see that at least the bureaux are brought up to standard in order to attract the maximum use from parents, employers and juveniles?
    Mr. Thomas: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that this matter is being considered all the time.
    Mr. Boyden: The Minister's own people have reported that a proper standard should be devised for the bureaux. The hon. Gentleman knows what the standard is. Can he not indicate those bureaux which fall below standard?
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Labour what steps he has taken, since the issued of the National Youth Employment Council's Report, to increase the number of his inspectors so that formal inspections of youth employment bureaux can be maintained at the previous 6–7 year intervals.
    Mr. P. Thomas: One additional appointment has been made to the Inspectorate of the Central Youth Employment Executive since the end of the period covered by the National Youth Employment Council's Report. Although my right hon. Friend and I are not in favour of a rigid timetable, we are anxious that the average interval between formal inspections of Youth Employment Offices shall not increase, and we are keeping the inspection programme under review.
    Mr. Boyden: In view of the Minister of Education's considerable loss of power over local education authorities through the institution of the general grant, does not the hon. Gentleman think that recourse to more inspection would be a very good way of getting the more reactionary authorities to bring their service up to date? Will he not, therefore, do much more about this question of producing inspectors and sending them round, especially to the more reactionary authorities, much more frequently?
    Mr. Thomas: As I said to the House, we are anxious that there should not be a lengthening of the interval between inspections. We are keeping the inspection programme under review.

    Factory Inspectors
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Labour how many visits were made in 1959 by factory inspectors to building operation sites and to works of engineering construction; how many of these inspectors had recognised technical or professional qualifications in building construction or civil engineering; and how many visits by such qualified inspectors were made in 1959 to building operations and works of engineering construction.
    Mr. P. Thomas: Thirty-two thousand, seven hundred and eighty-one visits were made to building sites and 1,718 visits to works of engineering construction. Eleven of the visiting inspectors had recognised professional, technical or equivalent academic qualifications, and 551 of the visits to building sites and 43 of the visits to works of engineering construction were made by them.
    Dr. Stross: Has the Parliamentary Secretary noted from his Answer that it is apparent that only a small proportion of the visits were made by inspectors who were technically or professionally qualified? Is not that unsatisfactory, in view of the changes which are occurring in building construction and civil engineering works? They are becoming very much more dangerous to the men who are at work. May we have an assurance on the lines of my last Question that we shall have more inspectors who are fully trained for this type of work?
    Mr. Thomas: Experience of the present system shows that the great proportion of building work and much civil engineering work can be inspected effectively by experienced inspectors with knowledge of the Regulations and their practical application. Qualification by membership of a professional institution is not necessary for this work. It may be, however, that more specialisation on it in the general inspectorate would be desirable, and this is being considered
    Mr. Prentice: Is it a fact that accidents in building and in constructional engineering are still increasing, although industrial accidents generally are decreasing? In view of that, is it not urgent to consider the need for more inspectors with the technical and professional qualifications to which my hon Friend referred?
    Mr. Thomas: I think that it is very important to consider all aspects of safety in the building and civil engineering industries.

    Blackburn Exchange
    Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Labour how many women were registered as unemployed at the Blackburn Employment Exchange on the latest available date.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Edward Heath): Eight hundred and ninety-three on 15th February, 1960.
    Mrs. Castle: Is the Minister of Labour aware that that is an increase of 100 over four weeks? This figure is expected to rise as the cotton reorganisation scheme comes into effect. Will he, therefore, make representations to his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade that it is quite absurd for Blackburn to be removed from the D.A.T.A.C. list, or list of areas to be helped under the Local Employment Bill, when there is this mounting problem of the unemployment of married women over 40 who need alternative work?
    Mr. Heath: It is, in fact, an increase of 74 over the last four weeks, but I understand that probably about 200 more women will become unemployed as the result of further closing of the mills. On the other hand, about 400 more women have been taken into employment in the

    33
    mills remaining open, and about two-thirds of the 1,200 new jobs which employers estimate will be provided in Blackburn will be for women.

    HOUSE OF COMMONS CATERING
    Mr. Dribergasked the hon. Member for Holland with Boston as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee if, for the information of hon. Members now participating in the boycott of South African goods, he will circulate in HANSARD a list of the articles of South African origin supplied by the Refreshment Department, and identify them on the menus, wine-lists, etc., in the rooms in which they are served.
    Sir H. Butcher: To ascertain the country of origin of all goods supplied by the Kitchen Committee would be to impose a substantial burden on a limited staff. It is not likely that menus or lists indicating this would be accurate for very long.
    Mr. Driberg: I did not ask the hon. Member to do it for very long, and I did not ask him to indicate all the countries of origin. Is he aware that this information would be useful to hon. Members taking part in this boycott, which is supported by members of all the political parties represented in this House, and that it would also be useful to those hon. Members who prefer to follow the example of Mr. Randolph Churchill and Sir Oswald Mosley and consume as much as they can of South African produce?
    Sir H. Butcher: The hon. Gentleman will find that South African wines supplied by the Refreshment Department were already differentiated on the wine list. I would further advise him, if he desires to practise the boycott, to avoid fruit salad for the near future.
    Mr. Smithers: Will my hon. Friend recognise the great importance of the Question on the Order Paper, which represents the highest common political factor of Members on the benches opposite?
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: From movement, I understood that the Chairman of the
    34
    Kitchen Committee desired to answer. If that is not so, I will call another Question.
    Sir H. Butcher: I was only going to say, Sir, that I think it is wise to allow the general manager of the Department to purchase supplies from the best sources available, irrespective of pressures from constituents for political purposes.
    Mr. Nabarro: Will not my hon. Friend agree that the Socialist-proposed boycott of South African goods is about as stupid as their vendetta in regard to Spain?
    Mr. Speaker: I rather doubt whether that is a question for the Chairman of the Kitchen Committee.
    Mr. Nabarro: Jolly good question, though.
    Lieut.-Colonel Cordeaux: I think that the best solution for hon. Members who wish to take part in this childish business would be to bring sandwiches with them from home during the month of March.

OIL HEATERS (REPORT)
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. R. A. Butler): A Report by the Joint Fire Research Organisation of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Fire Offices' Committee on the effect of draughts on the burning of portable drip-feed radiant oil heaters is being published this afternoon. Copies have been placed in the Library.
The main conclusion is that these heaters are safe in a house with the outer doors and windows closed, but that all the heaters of this type tested are capable of starting a fire very quickly if exposed to a draught such as can be caused by an open outer door.
As my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education stated last Thursday in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey (Lady Gammans), copies of the Report have been sent to the Government Departments concerned. Copies have also been sent to the manufacturers, and immediate consultations will be undertaken with a view to the adoption of a safe standard of performance for the future,

35
and of any other measures that may be found desirable and practicable.
Meanwhile, it is important that portable oil heaters of the drip-feed radiant type should not be used unless it can be ensured that they are not exposed to a draught.
Mr. Gordon Walker: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is a very alarming and unsatisfactory statement? It is difficult to understand how firms have put such dangerous appliances on the market. The right hon. Gentleman was rather complacent when he said that they are safe in a house with the outer doors and windows closed. It surely would be easier to say that they are very dangerous if there is a window open. Would he not agree that he has an obligation to start very quickly making regulations, and ought not the Government also to embark, because these appliances are so widespread and dangerous, on a really vigorous propaganda compaign to bring to people's attention the danger of these appliances, which they have bought in good faith?
Mr. Butler: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. That is the reason why I took the exceptional course, on a Monday afternoon, of making a statement to the House, so that the public should be aware immediately of the danger directly the Report of the D.S.I.R. is published, which will be this afternoon. As I have said, copies will be placed in the Library.
I trust that all means of propaganda, the wireless and other methods, will follow the remarks made in the House this afternoon. I do not agree that there is any complacency about the matter. What I have said comes as a digest from the Report of the D.S.I.R. and I cannot exceed them in precaution or knowledge. I shall be having immediate consultations with the manufacturers with a view to finding a safe standard of performance for heaters in the future and any modifications, where possible, of existing heaters. After that, I shall decide what is the quickest possible method of remedying the situation which has come to our notice and about which I think we are quite right to tell the country immediately.
Mr. Doughty: Is my right hon. Friend aware that these heaters have been demonstrated to hon. Members by
36
experimental laboratories and that they have three serious dangers which must be looked for? One is the threat of their bursting into flame in a draught; the second is their not going out if knocked over by chance by a child, or dog, or for any other cause; and the third is that if there is the slightest damage to the burner they give out large quantities of carbon monoxide which could prove fatal and which has, in fact, proved fatal in some cases. All these three dangers have to be looked at in consultation.
Mr. Butler: I hope that my hon. and learned Friend will read the full Report, in which he will see that some of these points are mentioned.
Mr. Chetwynd: Will any attempt be made to withdraw these types of apparatus already in use and to get people to return them for suitable modification at the proper time?
Mr. Butler: That is precisely the object of the consultations which we are immediately undertaking.
Mr. Nabarro: Does not my right hon. Friend recall that last December I questioned him as to what powers he had within existing Statutes to specify a minimum standard of proficiency and safety for these very dangerous oil heaters and he replied that he had no such power? Would he not agree that it is wholly insufficient to rely on optional British standards of minimum proficiency and safety and that he should legislate to give the appropriate Minister powers to require these safety standards for all new appliances from a very early date?
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. That may well be a necessity. The question of taking legal powers must follow upon the immediate consultations which my Department is undertaking.
Mr. de Freitas: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that each year the Royal Society of Arts has a competition for the examination of devices with a view to preventing fires in such cases as this? Would the right hon. Gentleman consider getting in touch with the Royal Society of Arts to see whether it cannot consider this matter in one of its next competitions?
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir; certainly. I should like to have advice from whatever sources will help me in this problem.
Sir G. Nicholson: To get this matter in true proportion and to prevent undue alarm, and to cause the necessary measures of precaution to be taken, can my right hon. Friend tell us how many fires or accidents have taken place from this cause during the last appropriate period?
Mr. Butler: The most serious outbreak of fire occurred at Ware, in November, 1959, which was caused precisely by such an oil heater as this. The Director of Fire Research gave evidence at the inquest. I am glad to say that in co-operation with the manufacturers the Fire Research Station undertook a series of tests of the effect of draughts on 34 different oil heaters of the drip-feed type, and it is arising from that that we now have the Report of the D.S.I.R.
Sir G. Nicholson: How many accidents?
Mr. Butler: That is the main one of which I have knowledge in recent times.
Mr. Lee: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a fire took place in my house about five weeks ago, caused by one of these oil burners? Will he look at the very intensive propaganda of the oil companies? It may well be that because of the financial advantages people who would not otherwise take these risks are being induced to take them.
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. I think that we must be quite definite in dealing with what might otherwise be a very serious problem in all our homes, and many homes with children in them.
Mr. Fletcher: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that about 3 million portable radiant oil heaters have been supplied up to the present? Will he see that the widest possible publicity is given to his statement? Will he also take steps to ensure that manufacturers cease immediately from supplying any more of these heaters and see that no more are imported?
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. The latter points are very much in my mind in the consultations which my Department is undertaking. The figure quoted by the hon. Gentleman is correct. There are about 3 million heaters of the drip-feed type and there would be approximately 10 million of a variety of types, but this dangerous type in respect of outside draught numbers about 3 million.
Mr. Gresham Cooke: While I agree that there are many of these dangerous appliances about, will my right hon. Friend confirm that very active research is going on at the moment, and that there are modifications that can be quickly applied to new stoves? Would it not be possible soon to be able to put a stamp of approval on stoves safe to use even where there is a draught?
Mr. Butler: I am obliged to my hon. Friend. In fact, the Director of Fire Research has drawn attention to this in some of his annual Reports—not in detail, but in general warning. The Fire Research Station has now produced a wind-producing apparatus, believed to be unique, which has, as a matter of fact, been in operation for only a few months. It is in this way that science catches up with danger. I am glad to say that we now have the equipment at the Fire Research Station necessary for dealing with this sort of difficulty, and we shall be able to take the necessary action.
Mr. Shinwell: In view of the danger to which consumers are subject, would not this be an appropriate occasion to advise consumers to use gas, electricity or even coal fires? Has it not occurred to the Home Secretary that he might advise his right hon. Friend the Minister of Power in this direction?
Mr. Butler: Naturally, we should wish those who have heard of my statement to be very careful about their existing stove and, alternatively, to consider other sources of supply.
Mr. Gordon Walker: Would not the right hon. Gentleman be a little more specific in answer to the suggestion that he should stop free sales of these dangerous appliances while various consultations and considerations are being undertaken? These things really are very dangerous. Clearly, the House is worried about them.
Mr. Butler: The trouble is that under our Constitution there are certain limits to the powers one has, but I shall be very glad to keep the House informed of the steps that I have in mind and, if I need further powers, to come to the House for them.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Clearly, we cannot debate this now.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [5TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]

  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1960–61
  VOTE A. NUMBERS
  Motion made and Question proposed,
  That 102,000 Officers, Seamen and Juniors and Royal Marines, who are borne on the books of Her Majesty's Ships and at the Royal Marine establishments, and members of the Women's Royal Naval Service and Queen Alexandra's Royal Naval Nursing Service, be employed for the Sea Service, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1961.
  3.43 p.m.
  The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing): Before I come to the Navy Estimates for 1960–61, I should mention the Supplementary Estimate required for the current year. I am glad to say that this is for a token amount of only £10. An explanation as been published in the usual way, and all I want to say is this. For the two previous years we had to ask for fairly large supplementary Estimates; and last year I spoke of the measures that we were taking to improve our control of production expenditure. It is in the production Vote that expenditure largely exists. Although I would not claim that we had solved all our difficulties, these measures are having some success—as our need for only a token £10 shows.
  I have seen a good deal of comment, more, I must admit, in the newspapers than in Parliament, concerning the load which the defence budget is putting on the economy. The amount spent on the Service Estimates depends on three factors: the nature of the threat, the strength of the friends and allies who share our task, and, thirdly, the resilience of the economy.
  My right hon. Friend, when he opened the defence debate, showed clearly that defence is placing a reducing load on our economy. The proportion of the gross national product which is steadily from the peak it reached in being spent on defence has fallen
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  1952–53. Over the same period, the Navy's share of the defence budget has remained roughly constant at about 25 per cent., so that the Navy is taking about 2 per cent. of the gross national product.
  For the next financial year, we are asking for a total net grant of £397·5 million. This is nearly £27 million more than the grant for the present year. About a third of this increase is due to our having to provide more for naval and civilian pay and pensions. As a result, out of the gross Estimates we shall be spending about 40 per cent. on our naval and civilian personnel. I notice that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air said, when opening the debate on the Air Estimates, that this item represented 41 per cent. of expenditure in that Service, so we are roughly comparable. This is nearly £5 million more than last year, and it is being spent on fewer people.
  We shall also be spending substantially more on the material side. Page 4 of the printed Estimates shows that the gross estimate of what we shall be spending, under Vote 8, Section III on naval production by contract is more than £121 million. This is over £12 million more than last year's total. The net estimate for new ships, aircraft and associated equipment amounts to just over £100 million—about £9 million more in real terms than in the present year. These figures are unmistakable evidence that our production drive is increasing, and that our plans for modernising and re-quipping the fleet are producing the goods.
  Our warship programme is also making, at a time when it is most needed, a very useful contribution to the shipbuilding industry. Although I would not want to exaggerate its benefits in terms of jobs in the shipyards, the facts are that Admiralty work is spread over 46 firms in all the main shipbuilding areas, and that the total value of our present orders is nearly £200 million.
  I should like to make an announcement here about the contract arrangements for our new ships. Before the last war, competitive tendering was standard practice for all classes of warships, even battleships. In the war, the practice had to give way to arrangements which made the maximum use of all

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  available building capacity. Subsequently—with the shipbuilding industry at full stretch, and commercial orders, specially export orders, getting priority—we have used, for the most part, a system of negotiation with the shipbuilders, both for placing orders and for fixing prices.
  For some time, however, orders for small craft such as ships' boats and L.C.A.s and, more recently, tugs, have been placed by means of competitive tendering. From now on, we are reckoning to restore this actice for the larger warships, such as frigates and destroyers. In doing so, the main considerations will be price and delivery dates; but we shall, naturally, take into account the employment factor. We are confident that the effect will be to encourage the building of our ships as quickly, and that means as economically as possible, and we are confident that the shipbuilders will respond to the challenge that this healthy competition will provide.
  My noble Friend has tried, in this year's Explanatory Statement, to give as much information as possible, and to present it in as striking a manner as possible. The Statement shows that the Navy is continuing to protect British interests, show the flag, and collaborate with Commonwealth and allied navies all over the world. This is the traditional rôle of the fleet, and it makes a significant contribution to the maintenance of peace.
  Before I come to examine the progress we have made in re-equipping the Navy, I should like to say a word about the size and quality of the fleet. This year, we have 147 ships in the operational fleet, and a further 42 ships engaged on trials or training. Of course, we cannot match in size the navies of the economic giants—the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R.— but we are the third biggest Navy in the world, and a growing proportion of our ships are new and of high quality. Of the 1960 fleet, all the carriers, two of the five cruisers, 22 of the 34 frigates, and all 37 minesweepers, have come into service since 1950. In addition, among ships on trials and training or in operational reserve, 140 minesweepers, 30 coastal craft, and 12 destroyers or frigates were also completed during the last ten years.
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  There is a higher proportion of small ships than in the past, but the capability of individual ships is much greater and, in some instances, very much greater. This is also something which we have brought out in this year's Explanatory Statement with the chart. It is our continuing policy to replace our older ships with new, better equipped and more powerful ships, though I can assure the Committee that we do not cast off any ships on grounds of age or obsolescence alone so long as they can continue to serve a useful purpose in the Navy. As I recently told the House, the total tonnage we are now launching is above the annual average of the post-war years; and the total of 25,500 tons for 1959 is more than 7,000 tons better than the average for the last five years.
  But it would be wrong to think that our total naval strength alone could match the Soviet Navy. Much is being made of the threat which 500 submarines pose to the supply lines of this country and Western Europe. Our efforts are directed to countering this, not single-handed, but with the dozen other N.A.T.O. navies. That is why my noble Friend has this year, on page 22 of the Statement, put more fully than before some details of the extensive exercises which we have undertaken with our N.A.T.O. allies.
  The anti-submarine field is one in which Britain plays a unique part because her experience is unique. Here is a sphere where interdependence can, and simply must, be a reality. I hope to visit soon the N.A.T.O. Anti-submarine Warfare Research Centre at La Spezia, which opened last year. It concentrates on basic and applied research, as distinct from development and has made a promising start on tackling a number of the problems of anti-submarine warfare. Close and continuous collaboration of this kind—at the planning level, in exercises, and in research and development— is essential to N.A.T.O. if this vital alliance is to remain strong.
  Because the N.A.T.O. shield is effective, it is not surprising that the Soviet Union are deploying considerable effort on strengthening some of the countries on N.A.T.O.'s flank. Their policy has been to provide Soviet instructors, Soviet technicians, and Soviet armaments to their satellites and to their friends. This process is continuing in the naval

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  sphere. Nine Soviet submarines are now working with the United Arab Republic under President Nasser's control, and Egyptian crews have been trained.
  The number of Soviet submarines based in Albania has increased. There are now eight there, and their ship-borne support has been strengthened by a modern submarine tender which was recently seen sailing into the Mediterranean past Gibraltar. I am not surprised at this. What I find a little surprising is that there has been so little criticism of this further example of Soviet bases overseas.
  Now let me turn to our own submarines. They have several tasks today of the greatest importance. They are warships of attack and defence, and they are essential to the fleet for training our anti-submarine forces. Submarine philosophy is more and more turning towards their use in the anti-submarine rô1e; and this is likely to grow in importance as nuclear submarines come into general use.
  We launched five submarines last year; they totalled 8,000 tons—a figure exceeded only once, except in the war, during the last forty years. The quality of our "Porpoise" and "Oberon" Classes as conventional submarines, is second to none. Five of the "Porpoise" Class are with the fleet; two more are expected to complete next year; and two of the "Oberon" Class have been launched. These submarines are most effective warships, with a capacity for silent stalking which has shown up well in recent exercises, even against nuclear submarines from the U.S.A.
  Conventional submarines have a further asset in relation to nuclear submarines; they are very much cheaper. One can build about half a dozen conventional submarines for the capital cost of one nuclear submarine. Their running cost is about a seventh of a nuclear submarine's. Their refits will be much less expensive, though exact figures of comparison are not at present available. Of course, the nuclear submarine, with its high speed and underwater endurance, has an immeasurably greater all-round capability; but finance and other factors point to a policy of having some nuclear and some conventional submarines for many years to come. No fewer than 11
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  "Porpoise" and "Oberon" submarines are now building.
  I now come to one of our more exciting projects: the "Dreadnought." The deliveries of machinery to this country from the U.S.A. have begun, and we are getting all the information we want. Staff from the Admiralty, and our own contractors, have had courses in reactor technology in the U.S.A. Officers and ratings selected to serve in the "Dreadnought" have been having training in nuclear technology at Greenwich and Portsmouth, and in operational techniques in U.S. submarines; and I hear that they have been showing up pretty well.
  The electrical officer designate for the "Dreadnought" and two chief petty officers have just made a submerged crossing of the Atlantic in the U.S. nuclear submarine "Skate," which arrived at Portland last week. We shall have the first party ready to stand by the "Dreadnought" as soon as she is launched. Although we have met difficulties in the use of some techniques in hull construction which are being used for the first time, we plan to launch the "Dreadnought" in the autumn, and this will meet the programme.
  As the Committee will already know, fortified by the experience we are gaining from the "Dreadnought", we plan to order this year a second nuclear submarine which will be British made. To remove any possible misunderstanding, I should like to emphasise that, like the "Dreadnought", she will be equipped to hunt and kill enemy submarines and surface warships; and she also will be designed to carry an asdic that can detect at much greater ranges than those at present fitted in our conventional submarines. She will not carry ballistic missiles—I wish to underline this—and could not be converted to do so. Ballistic missile submarines are of a different size and design.
  To take the U.S. Navy, the "George Washington", their first Polaris submarine, has a displacement of something under 6,000 tons. The "Skipjack"—to which the "Dreadnought" can be compared—is a little over 3,000 tons. Both these types are, of course, nuclear propelled, but the missile-carrying submarine is twice the size—and, incidentally, about twice the cost.

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  I should say that we have very full information about the U.S. Navy's progress with "Polaris" and we are in continuous touch with them. "Polaris" has already reached the stage of exhaustive trials by the U.S. Navy, and the First Sea Lord had a detailed tour of the "George Washington" when he visited America last November.
  Our second nuclear submarine will be British made. Its hull will be broadly of the same Admiralty design as the "Dreadnought's". Its reactor core will be made in this country, and its machinery will be of British design and manufacture, after the pattern of the shore prototype now being installed in the Admiralty Reactor Test Establishment at Dounreay.
  This is why we are pressing ahead as fast as we can at Dounreay. The prototype is urgently required for testing the British reactor design and the components of the British-made machinery. It will also be essential for training our submarine crews and others in nuclear propulsion techniques.
  I should perhaps stress, in passing, that submarines are not the end of our interest in nuclear propulsion. Although the sponsorship of merchant shipbuilding has now passed to the Ministry of Transport, we continue to take a close interest in the possibilities of applying nuclear propulsion more widely.
  To turn to surface ships, next year we shall have over 50 frigates in commission, of which more than half will be less than five years old. These are efficient ships, whether employed as policemen on the beat or showing the flag or on fleet escort duty. The Type 12 "Whitby" class anti-submarine frigates are proving particularly successful. Ten of these will be in service in 1960, and we have decided to exploit their good qualities in an improved and more versatile ship.
  This improved Type 12 will be known as the "Leander" class. The hull and steam turbine machinery will be substantially the same as for the "Whitbys". The main new features planned are a long-range air warning radar, the "Seacat" anti-aircraft guided missile, improved anti-submarine detection equipment and a light-weight helicopter armed with homing torpedoes. We shall also introduce air conditioning and better living conditions. As far as
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  possible, these improvements will be extended, during refits, to the "Whitbys" now in service as well as to those still building. In all, we have some 17 frigates under construction for ourselves and eight more for Commonwealth countries.
  This brings me to the Commonwealth. We have had a particularly good year for naval co-operation within the Commonwealth. Last August I spent a week visiting ships which were taking part in the Commonwealth manoeuvres —Exercise Jet. This involved the navies of Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan, Ceylon, and with the largest contribution coming from Britain. At the start of the exercise, we assembled at Karachi. Never, not even in wartime, have so many warships been seen in Karachi Harbour. As we steamed down the west coast of the Indian subcontinent, it was a stirring sight to see nearly 50 warships working and exercising together.
  Each day I transferred by jackstay— quite a stimulating experience, even in a relatively calm sea—to visit two or three different ships. One cannot help being struck by the tremendous progress which the Commonwealth navies are showing. Every year now they are growing in strength, experience and efficiency. There is a common bond between seamen all over the world. There is a much stronger bond between navies of the Commonwealth. The officers speak the same language, use the same expressions, enjoy the same jokes—salty ones—and share the same naval traditions. This is only to be expected since the great majority of them were educated and brought up at Dartmouth.
  We have another task with the youngest Commonwealth countries. Last year Ghana established the nucleus of a navy with two of our new inshore minesweepers and some of our officers and ratings to help them with training. The Royal Nigerian Navy has now taken over an Algerine minesweeper and a seaward defence motor launch and is planning to add other vessels. This process of technical assistance and training is continuous, and with older Commonwealth countries it is certainly not all one way. I believe that the close relationship which is being increasingly developed with the twelve navies of the Commonwealth is one of the most important activities of the Royal Navy in peacetime.

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  Twenty years ago the Commonwealth navies, other than the Royal Navy, amounted to only four cruisers, 14 escort vessels, and a few smaller ships. Now, in escorts alone, they have nearly 100 between them. Since the last war some 70 warships and 30 miscellaneous craft have been transferred from the Royal Navy to Commonwealth and Colonial navies. Nor should we forget that these navies have modern warships designed by the Admiralty, ordered by them and built in British yards. The Commonwealth countries are all sovereign and independent, but should the occasion arise where our common traditions and freedom were threatened, then the close bonds between the Commonwealth navies might well stand us all in very good stead.
  To return to our own ships: there are now four guided missile ships of the new "County" class being built—on the Mersey and the Clyde, and the last two have just been laid down on the Tyne, and in Northern Ireland. We expect to spend about £12½ million on them in the coming year. It is planned that the "Devonshire" will be launched at Birkenhead in June. That is the first. These four ships will be fitted with the Seaslug missile, for which a production order has now been placed. The development of the close-range guided missile Seacat is also going well and ships are being fitted to take it. We are particularly glad that Sweden has placed an order for the Seacat system and missile in order to evaluate this British replacement for their own very famous Bofors gun.
  To turn to aircraft carriers, the accent is also on first-class equipment. H.M.S. "Hermes", which commissioned last November, is one of our smaller carriers. When I visited her last month I was very struck by the skill in design and construction that enables her not only to operate the latest generation of aircraft—the Scimitars, and the new Sea Vixen squadrons—but also to provide the most up-to-date living accommodation.
  She shares with the "Victorious" the distinction of having what is at present the finest air defence equipment in the world; and this was splendidly tested last July during an exercise with the U.S. Navy, Exercise Rip Tide, off the coast of Virginia. Over 90 per cent. of some
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  150 aircraft dummy attacks on her were intercepted by fighters directed by the "Victorious", and our American friends could not have been more generous in acknowledging the outstanding success of the 984 radar and comprehensive display system which goes with it, which have proved to be a triumph of electronic ingenuity. I was associated with radar for about twenty-one years of my life and I can say without doubt that these two equipments are absolutely outstanding in their way and a great credit to the British electronics industry and naval design.
  The introduction of new types of aircraft is going ahead steadily. The first Sea Vixen squadron, which formed in July, 1959, embarked in the "Ark Royal" last week. The second squadron formed five weeks ago. The gas-turbine powered Wessex helicopter enters service next month and the first squadron, should join the fleet next year.
  I have said something about N.A.T.O. and Commonwealth collaboration. We have also had a year of especially close association with the United States. H.M.S. "Victorious" went on from Rip Tide to visit Boston and New York; following the opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway, the 5th Frigate Squadron visited ports in the Great Lakes; and H.M.S. "Adamant" and 10 of our submarines exercised with the United States Navy and other N.A.T.O. navies before visiting the United States submarine base at New London.
  In marked contrast, we tried something of an experiment in the United States by showing something which has been seen here many times and has become almost traditional. We accepted an invitation to send two field gun crews of the Fleet Air Arm to the United States after their success at the Royal Tournament. They travelled 15,000 miles and performed in Portland, San Francisco and Chicago before over 100,000 people. Having read a complete report of the tour, I have no doubt that it left a great impression. I gather that a typical reaction was that of the American who, at the start, was resistant to what he thought would be another piece of ancient British pageantry.
  Very soon he was yelling his head off in enthusiasm, and at the end of the show he said, "If they'd all been like

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  this, George Washington wouldn't have had a hope in hell." He had put his finger on the point. Field guns are not part of the Navy's fighting potential, but the men who manned them are. I should like to pay tribute to the fine qualities of skill, toughness and particularly team work which they, and many others of them, in the fleet, show.
  Those Fleet Air Arm gun crews were nothing if not versatile, and I would like to end what I have to say about our new ships by emphasising the growing versatility and mobility of the Navy. From the operational point of view, 1959 was a quieter year than the years immediately preceding it; but there has been no letting up in our plans to strengthen the capacity of the Navy to provide well-equipped forces at short notice in any part of the world. The growth of nationalism in many countries and its effect on our overseas bases and air routes underline the value of the high seas—across which, in an emergency, our ships can still move freely and, perhaps even more important, discreetly. This is the background to three developments to which we attach great importance.
  First, H.M.S. "Bulwark," our first Commando Carrier. She will embark No. 42 Commando next week and sail east of Suez later in the year. With her ability to accommodate a complete commando of 600 men and to carry a second commando or battalion when necessary, with her helicopters and assault landing craft, she will be ready to play a major part in any emergency in any climate. But, if we are not to lose this capability whenever H.M.S. "Bulwark" is due for refit, there will have to be at least a second Commando carrier before very long.
  Mr. Thomas Steele: Hon. Members said that in the House two years ago.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: What is perhaps even more important, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence said it last week, and I was delighted to hear it.
  Mr. Steele: The difficulty is that he did not say when.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: Nor did I.
  Secondly, amphibious craft. We have been giving a lot of thought to how we
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  can best replace our amphibious warfare vessels. We envisage the amphibious craft of the future as being a larger vessel than in the past—one capable of transporting at high speed a considerable force and its equipment. Design studies for a ship of this type are well advanced. It would be complementary to the Commando carrier, and would carry a number of smaller amphibious craft for landing troops and heavy equipment over exposed beaches. But these projects lie quite a few years ahead, and we have, therefore, overhauled the ships of the present amphibious warfare squadron and installed air conditioning, so that they can operate wherever they may be needed in the meantime.
  Lastly, afloat support. Our ships cannot be poised for or engaged in operations indefinitely without needing fuel, food, ammunition and the other necessities of Service life. Many of the fleet maintenance ships and depot ships are gradually being modernised, and a building programme of fast replenishment ships and tankers is being planned for the next few years.
  So much for the ships and weapons— all essential to the balanced fleet of the future—which are coming along, as part of a continuing programme, to meet the ceaseless threat of obsolescence.
  I now come to personnel. I have spent some time on equipment because, having listened to thirteen hours of the defence debate last week, I had the impression that this year the House of Commons was less concerned with this matter, possibly as a result of the pay and pensions increases, than it was with hardware.
  Admiralty civilian staffs have a large share in the task of countering this threat. The many developments in our material strength are the result of much thought and detailed design work—not only by boffins working on black boxes, though we have quite a few of them, but also by naval architects, engineers, draughtsmen and many other kinds of technical staff. In all, well over a third of the staff employed at Admiralty H.Q. are working directly on the design of ships and weapons, or in watching over work by contractors, or controlling work in research establishments and in the dockyards. Naval officers and civilians work side by side in this sphere. This

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  seems to me the best way of blending the different experience so that we can exploit the rapid advances in technology.
  It is striking what a greatly increased effort these technical advances demand from us. For example, the effort in terms of design staff required by the "Dreadnought" project is gargantuan. We have about 100 draughtsmen on this project alone, more than five times what we needed twenty years ago for an A Class submarine. Compared with a "Dido" class cruiser, the new guided missile ships require five times the design effort for the actual ship, and almost eight times for the armament.
  One of our major problems, in fact, is to find enough design capacity for all the projects we would like to undertake. Both we and the shipbuilding industry have difficulties in recruiting all the design staff of high quality that we need. Perhaps I might emphasise that ship design and shipbuilding—especially in these days of nuclear propulsion and other new developments—offer as fascinating and valuable career as any now open to young men of ability.
  To turn from civilian to naval personnel, I have an encouraging report to present. Vote A is about 100,000 men. This is a little bigger than the Navy we had during most of the inter-war years. It is very much bigger than the Navy which existed in the fifty years before 1900—the period of Pax Britannica. We have once again become virtually an all-regular Navy. Our task is to achieve a high standard of recruiting and a high rate of re-engagement in order to build up the balanced Service we need.
  The rate of re-engagement for pension is particularly striking. It has continued to improve and, except for one or two branches, is at its highest since 1936. Two in every three Royal Navy ratings completing twelve years' service are deciding to stay in the Navy for a further ten years. Considering the high level of employment and prosperity in the country, I think that this is remarkable evidence that the men who really know what life is like in the Navy find it a satisfying career. There is also a useful dividend in terms of greater efficiency and a saving in training effort.
  For those leaving the Service, the prospects of obtaining a good job have
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  never been better. The modern rating is well placed to make his mark in civilian life, with his combination of technical efficiency and the qualities of integrity, loyalty and good sense which naval service develops.
  As to recruiting, we are confident that the Royal Navy and Royal Marines will be able to attract all the Regular recruits they need, though there are still some categories which are short. After some disappointments in the past, I am particularly glad to be able to say that we have obtained this year all the artificer apprentices we require. These young men have an increasingly important part to play in the Navy of the future.
  It is part of the price which the Navy has to pay for its new ships, aircraft and weapons that it will need many more— and more highly skilled—technical ratings for maintenance work. The new pay code, which ensures that Service men keep abreast of the increased rewards of civilian life, offers special benefits to technical ratings with its emphasis on skill and experience. A young artificer of 25 today can earn nearly £14 a week all found. If he is over 25 and married, his total income will amount to about £1,000 a year. His corresponding earnings in 1950 would have been about half that. To take another example, the unmarried leading seaman who was earning £5 a week in 1950 will now be receiving a weekly wage of nearly £9 15s., all found. In real terms he will be about 40 per cent. better off.
  I think that the Committee will agree that it is a very satisfactory development of recent years that, generally speaking, naval ratings are content with the level of pay and do not feel at a disadvantage compared with those in civilian life. All this means that sailors have become expensive people. Today, the annual cost of an able seaman is about £740 and a seaman petty officer costs the Navy £1,120. This makes it all the more important to deploy our uniformed man-power as efficiently as possible.
  I believe that the situation is no less good for officers. We are still not quite getting all the able young men we need for entry to Dartmouth, and I would, therefore, like to sum up briefly what we can offer to those who are attracted to the sea and the career of a naval officer.

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  I shall start with pay and pensions, for these are probably what parents and schoolmasters, not the boys, tend to look at first. The Navy now offers pay and pension rates which compare favourably with what young men can expect to get elsewhere. The young unmarried officer of 21, for example, can now earn nearly £600 a year, with free board and lodging. If he marries between, say, the age of 25 and 30, his total income, including marriage allowance, will be over £1,300 a year. This seems a fair enough begin-ing within the Service. But if he should wish to leave it, and should not be selected for further promotion, he will in future be able to retire with a pension in his late 'thirties when he can start a new career in civilian life.
  If, on the other hand, he takes advantage of the longer career we are going to offer, he need no longer be afraid of only a negligible pension. For example, a lieutenant-commander retiring at 50 would receive a pension of £800 a year. This sum, naturally, increases for longer service in the higher ranks. A senior captain, for instance, retiring in his 'fifties could expect to get a pension of about £1,400 a year.
  Last March, I told the Committee about our new entry standards and scheme of training at Dartmouth, and we have been discussing our plans during the year with many schoolmasters and many schools. In broad terms, the position is that we are after young men of university entry standard—nothing less will do for the highly complex Navy of the future—and we shall be offering them careers which, from the financial point of view, will be as rewarding as anything that a great many university graduates can expect in civil life.
  That is the career side. No less important—and this is what I would stress to the young men themselves—is the kind of life which the Navy gives. It is a life of service, which offers as much responsibility and adventure as it ever did. In the Fleet Air Arm, a young man of 23 or 24 can expect to be flying a Sea Vixen or a Scimitar only about six years after joining the General List. A submariner, at the age of 28, may be captain of his submarine, responsible for 60 or 70 officers and men on what may be long and arduous patrols in any part of the world.
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  No wonder that we are looking for qualities of intellect and character wherever we can find them. As I stressed in an Adjournment debate, we want boys from every type of school and background. Our liaison officers visit as many schools as they can; and one of the appendices to my noble Friend's Explanatory Statement shows the many schools from which they come.
  As the Committee knows, a boy who has the qualifications we require can now hope to secure a naval scholarship at the age of 16. This will help his parents to meet the cost of his last two years at school, or, failing that, to get a reserved cadetship which, subject to his clearing the academic hurdle, will guarantee him a place at Dartmouth later on. I warmly commend this system to the parents of any boys who, at an early age, have set their hearts on joining the Navy. I hope, however, that our introduction of this system of scholarships and reserved cadet-ships will not discourage boys from trying in the ordinary way for a place at the age of 18. Some boys may very well do better when they are a little older. There are always late developers, even in the House of Commons.
  I have spoken at some length about the problem of officers because we have been giving much thought to it with our new system of training, starting at Dartmouth this year, and the new rules for entry coming into force in September, 1961.
  Dr. Horace King: What the Minister has been saying is exceedingly important in connection with the attraction of boys of all schools to the Navy. Can he say to what extent the Navy is receiving cooperation from local authorities in putting over this information to all capable young lads in State grammar schools, many of whom would be interested in the Navy as a career?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I am grateful to the hon. Member for raising that point. The great majority of education authorities allow liaison officers of all three Services to make approaches in this matter, but there are still some areas in which they are completely debarred. In a recent Adjournment debate I said that there were about 50 constituencies in which we were not able to point out to boys the advantages of a Service career. Since

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  that debate there has been an improvement, to the extent that in one area— Swansea—we are now able to tell the schools what we have to offer.
  I hope that this process will spread, because at a time when the bulge in the birthrate will make many more young people become available we have wonderful opportunities for them in every sphere, and the more information we can put before these schools in all areas the better it will be for the Services and for the country. It was necessary to speak at length of the officer problem, because all three Services have a problem in this direction, and it is desirable that the country should know what is to offer.
  We recognise that we are competing, with the other two Services, for a share of the best young men in the country. But we see no reason why we should not get all we want. We believe that our new entry standards are on the right lines, and that the selection system is fair to boys wherever they come from. The opportunity of commanding one of Her Majesty's ships at sea, together with an income of over £1,300 a year before the age of 30, are a prospect that no other profession can offer. And our future career structure and the new pension code ensure that if an officer leaves the Service he goes out not only with an excellent training, but a reasonable pension.
  Before I summarise, I would say that with a Vote A of around 100,000 we are continually tackling the problem of manning the maximum number of ships. The recent cyclone at Mauritius and the earthquake at Agadir both showed that sudden and extra tasks can arise. H.M.S. "Gambia" went 2,500 miles to bring help to Mauritius. Her Majesty's ships "Tyne" and "Darlaston" went nearly 500 miles to give help to Agadir. These acts of God occurred without warning. Similar acts of man may also occur without warning. This illustrates most vividly why the Royal Navy must always have ships available to react with speed and the utmost versatility.
  I would put the present position in this way. Today, we have a flexible Navy. Our ships are not designed for one kind of task or one kind of war; they have an all-round capacity for a wide variety of tasks both in peace and
  56
  war. There is a higher proportion of small ships than before, but the capability of individual ships is greater. We have an operational fleet of 147 ships, and a further 42 ships on trials or training; a vigorous programme of new construction is under way. The size of our total naval manpower is very much what it has been in the past, except in war-time. The opportunities for a useful career and promotion to the top are, therefore, as great as they have ever been.
  We take pride in the efficiency of our ships all over the world. We take pride in the weight and precision of the attack which the fleet can deliver, but, above all, we take immense pride in the spirit of the men and women now serving throughout the naval Service.
  I ask the Committee to approve the grant we need for the next financial year.
  4.26 p.m.
  Mr. E. G. Willis: I congratulate the Civil Lord on having survived at the Admiralty for two years, and on having been able to introduce these Estimates on two occasions. I also congratulate him on having gathered unto himself the double responsibility of Parliamentary and Financial Secretary, and Civil Lord. I am sorry that he has not gathered unto himself the double salary.
  When the two offices were merged I wondered why. At first, I thought that it was simply a rather typical naval gesture of defiance that the office of Parliamentary and Financial Secretary should disappear precisely at the moment when our naval expenditure was the highest ever in peacetime. Then I thought that that might not be quite correct; it might be a tacit recognition on the part of the Admiralty that the Navy is becoming increasingly a shore-based force.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing indicated dissent.
  Mr. Willis: The hon. Member shakes his head, but he will remember that last week, in answer to a Question, he told me that out of a personnel of about 89,000, no fewer than 54,000 are now based ashore and only 35,000 afloat. I found that rather difficult to reconcile with his statement today that we had to

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  deploy our skilled manpower as efficiently as possible. I cannot see how that can be done if the great bulk of it is ashore.
  We are faced with an Estimate of £397½ million, which is an increase of £26·8 million over last year. This is the smallest in the Service Estimates. The days are long past when the Navy accounted for fully half of our defence ependiture. As the hon. Member said, it now accounts for only one quarter. In spite of this, however, expenditure has steadily increased, both in monetary terms and as a proportion of our net national income.
  The hon. Member said that our expenditure was decreasing. He took 1952 as the year for comparison, as did the Minister of Defence during the defence debate last year. I would say only that in taking the year 1952 both the Minister of Defence and the Civil Lord were taking the year in which we were engaged in a rearmament programme. The facts concerning the Navy—and I give them because the hon. Gentleman rather discounted what I said last year on this matter—are that in 1928 we spent 1·37 per cent. of our net national income on the Navy; in 1935, 1·57 per cent.; in 1948—one has to omit the war years —1·7 per cent.; and if we omit the period of rearmament, which I think it is fair to omit, and come to 1958, we find that the Navy is consuming over 2 per cent. of our net national income. We are spending an increasing amount upon the Navy.
  Commenting on this last year, I said:
  "In spite of this … we can no longer … build aircraft carriers. The missile cruiser … is out. The missile submarine is also out. The Polaris is out. We have a smaller operational fleet than we have ever had before and smaller reserve fleet than ever before. The Navy will make no contribution at all to the strategic deterrent … We are left today with a fleet that is capable of certain limited operations and a certain limited anti-submarine rôle, in spite of the fact that we are spending this increasing proportion of our income upon the Navy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th March, 1959; Vol. 601, c. 1017.]
  This still remains true, although this year we are being asked to pay an additional £27 million.
  It is true that during the defence debates last week the whole question of the future shape and rôle of the Navy
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  was discussed. We heard a great deal about mobility, about credibility, about invulnerability and the necessity of putting the deterrent at sea. Polaris may now be in. We do not know. In any case, all these things are several years ahead. What we do know is that these Estimates make no allowance at all for any of the many suggestions which were made during those debates. They re-represent this year's cost of the fleet that I have indicated.
  Let us not shirk the fact that this is an enormous cost. There has been a tendency to try to write down this cost during these debates. I do not think that it is a wise thing to do. It is far better to face the fact that it is a very large sum of money for which we are asked. What is more, all the available evidence points to its becoming even larger in the near future, in spite of which we become less and less able to defend ourselves, as, of course, do other nations. It becomes increasingly urgent then, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker) pointed out during the debate on the Air Estimates, that we make some progress towards controlled international disarmament, and we must hope that no effort will be spared in attempting to make any talks successful.
  Meanwhile, we have to face the fact that discussion of defence in national terms becomes less and less real as year follows year. The present Minister of Aviation, when he was Minister of Defence, said during the defence debates in 1958:
  "With the increase in the power and range of modern weapons, no country can any longer defend itself in isolation. The conception of separate national defence has become almost wholly replaced by that of collective security organised through a system of alliances."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th February, 1958; Vol. 583, c. 386.]
  In naval terms, Admiral Wright said at the N.A.T.O. congress last year that it was not a case of one nation defending the Atlantic, nor two nations nor three nations: it was a job for everyone. It is because of this interdependence that we have our alliance and our co-operation with the Commonwealth.
  It is a serious criticism of both the Defence White Papers and the Explanatory Statement that neither of them gives us any picture at all of how our defence forces fit into the allied defence plan.

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  With very great respect to what the hon. Gentleman has said, and to the Explanatory Statement on the Navy Estimates for this year, we really learn very little about this matter. Why is this? Why should not this Committee be told what is being done with our forces with our allies?
  The Economist said in its issue for 27th February:
  "The shape of the Navy still does not make much sense."
  It never will, of course, unless we know what it is supposed to fit into. I suggest to the hon. Gentleman and to the Government that they ought to consider the possibility of publishing as an appendix to the Statement details of what is being done by the allied forces as a whole.
  I should like to ask one or two questions about this matter of how we fit into this plan. Last year, my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) quoted the "SACLANT N.A.T.O. Story" at great length to indicate the policies our naval forces were expected to follow. The significant sentence of his quotations was this, that the policy was
  "First, to strike, with the maximum atomic capability, the enemy airfields and naval bases which support the forces which would seize control of the seas."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th March, 1959; Vol. 601, c. 914.]
  It was the naval equivalent of the notorious paragraph 12 of the 1958 White Paper.
  Are we still committed to this policy? Or has it been modified? We tried to find this out last year. We were told nothing at all about this during the whole of the debate. My hon. Friend also asked the important question: who decides when the atomic strike should be delivered? Once again, we were told nothing. I do not know, and I doubt whether very many Members know, how exactly we fit into this picture. One thing we do know is that if this atomic strike is delivered we can expect nuclear retaliation and can more or less expect to be wiped out. In other words, this is a policy of suicide, and we ought to know something more from the Government of what their views are about this.
  Talking of operational activities, the Explanatory Statement, in paragraph 15, says:
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  "Never before in peacetime have major powers progressed so far in training and planning for a common purpose."
  The hon. Gentleman said during his speech that there was an Appendix published in the Explanatory Statement this year telling us about the exercises which had taken place during the year. That is very good, but I am bound to ask whether this is enough.
  In the Report "State of European Security", which was adopted by Western European Union, very serious criticisms are made of the N.A.T.O. naval arrangements. In paragraph 62, there is a very heavy indictment of the N.A.T.O. forces because of the lack of integration of the supply services. It says:
  "The Committee was shocked to discover the lack of integration of the supply services of the various nations. Under present circumstances, ships of different nationality operating under an allied command in the event of war would depend on their own supply system, and it would be difficult for a destroyer of X to be refuelled by a refuelling ship of Y. Apart from financial considerations the operation of this system leads to duplication and waste of physical resources."
  They go on to suggest that there should be a joint solution of these logistic problems.
  In paragraph 74, they criticise the lack of balanced naval forces, and say:
  "There appears to be little attempt to produce an overall balanced force designed to provide the minimum naval strength needed by the alliance. Indeed, while N.A.T.O. naval forces consist only of units allotted by nations from navies whose composition is largely determined by national and not N.A.T.O. considerations, it is difficult to see how adequate naval forces can be built up. Arguments for collective as distinct from individual defence efforts seem equally convincing on sea as on land or in the air."
  They go on to recommend that specific tasks should be allotted to the various members of the alliance.
  Paragraph 75 recommends that the units of the strategic strike fleet should be placed permanently under the command structure which will operate in wartime. Paragraphs 72 and 77 criticise the SACLANT command structure, and call for its overhaul and rationalisation. We all know that the existing command structure was brought about in an endeavour to satisfy the national prestige and aspirations of nations taking part in N.A.T.O., but it does not measure up to the realities as they exist today, and something should be done about it.
  Vice-Admiral John Hughes Hallett: I do not wish to take exception to the quotations which the hon. Gentleman has been reading, but when he says "they" the whole time I think that he should make it clear to hon. Members that the Report is the personal report of his hon. Friend on the Committee who prepared it. Although the recommendations at the beginning of the Report were, in fact, adopted by the Assembly as a whole, not all of us, as I am sure the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) will agree, accepted with unanimity all the points which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned in the Report.
  Mr. Willis: That might have been so, but these recommendations and criticisms were accepted by Western European Union. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] Yes. As I understand the recommendations were, in fact, sent to the Council of Ministers. I rather fancied that the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) would have something to say about this, because I noticed that he was one of the members of the Committee. While he may wish to dissociate himself from some of them now, the fact remains that these are serious criticisms. [An HON. MEMBER: "He voted for them."] I do not know whether he voted for them or not, but I am told that the hon. and gallant Gentleman did vote for this Report.
  Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I am very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. We must get this quite clear. The procedure at the Assembly is that the Rapporteur is personally responsible for the Report, but the Committee is responsible only for the recommendations. I certainly voted for the recommendations, but there are a number of points in the Report which the hon. Gentleman read out which are rather different, in nature and emphasis, from what is to be found in the dehydrated recommendations.
  Mr. Steele: As a member of the Committee, I am sure that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will agree that what my hon. Friend said in reading out the document itself was that, in fact, the basis of these remarks was embodied in resolutions which were adopted by the
  62
  Western European Union Assembly, for which the hon. and gallant Gentleman voted.
  Mr. Willis: I will leave the hon. and gallant Member to fight it out with my hon. Friend. The point that I wish to make is that these are serious criticisms, and, as such, we ought to be told something about the position in relation to them. They appear to have a considerable validity, and I think that probably the hon. and gallant Gentleman would agree that he voted for the resolutions which were ultimately sent to the Council of Ministers.
  The Government ought to tell us something about this. After all, when we are asked to vote 102,000 men and women and £397 million, we are entitled to know whether the purposes for which they are required are being met in the most efficient manner possible, and if not, why not. If these criticisms are valid, quite obviously this money is not being spent as efficiently as it ought to be spent. We are, in fact, wasting money.
  It seems to me, too, that we ought to be told what is being done under the N.A.T.O. infrastructure arrangements. We read from time to time in the Press small paragraphs about a very expensive boom defence or bases being established here, there and elsewhere, but we should know something about this in the House of Commons. This does not seem to me to be secret information, but the only people who are not able to get it easily are the Members of the House of Commons. We have to search in all sorts of obscure publications, in the Library and elsewhere, to try to find out something about it.
  Let me now turn to the fleet. Whatever our views about the future, and I agree that these are very important, the shape and size of the fleet are likely to remain much as we see them now for several years ahead. It makes some sense, but there are a number of questions which I should like to ask. The first is about cruisers. Three years ago, I questioned the wisdom of proceeding with the three "Tiger" class cruisers. They are to be completed at a cost of £40 million. They are obsolescent.
  Would it not have been better if we had spent some of this money on some of the more urgent needs of the Royal Navy at present? Would it not have

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  been better if some of this money had been spent on a second Commando carrier, or if some had been spent in providing up-to-date craft for amphibious operations? I can think of a number of ways which, in my view, would have better ways of spending this money.
  I have never yet been able to discover properly what are the functions of these cruisers today. In last week's defence debate, we had the curious situation of the Minister of Defence and the hon. and gallant Member for Wells (Lieut-Commander Maydon), who wound up the debate on the first day, both claiming as the raison d'etre for these ships that they could help in times of disaster. Nobody is against ships helping in times of disaster. We are all proud and pleased when they do, but we do not need ships costing £14 million a time simply to help in times of disaster.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: What was behind the remarks of my hon. Friend in that debate was that they are ships of long endurance and high speed which can operate a long way from bases, which get further and further apart and more difficult in this troubled world. Therefore, cruisers and ships of that type have become of tremendous value not only in a disaster—but it is the intrinsic merits of the ships that make it possible to use them in a disaster.
  Mr. Willis: I would call the hon. Gentleman's attention to his own publication, the "Admiralty News Summary". The last paragraph in the February issue, dealing with the Commando carrier H.M.S. "Bulwark"—not cruisers—says:
  "By virtue of the great variety of stores and equipment onboard, the ship is particularly well suited for providing rapid assistance in cases of civil disaster, such as earthquake, typhoon and flood."
  I think that that is correct and that it is a much better proposition than a £14 million cruiser.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: Much more expensive.
  Mr. Willis: It also fulfils rather more important rôles than can be performed by a cruiser.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Is my hon. Friend aware that "Britannia" was originally built as a
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  hospital ship and that it would be far more economical to use her rather than these expensive cruisers?
  Mr. Willis: I do not want to enter into controversy about the merits of "Britannia", but I agree that something much more economical could be used. This is as poor an excuse as the one we had a few years ago, when these ships were described as good ships because they could stay in port a long time. I thought at the time that that was a queer kind of reason in favour of ships for the Navy.
  But, to be serious, the advantages announced two years ago were that these ships were capable of operating alone and capable of putting on shore a sizeable landing party and of carrying fuel, workshops, repair facilities, stores and medical supplies. One is driven to the inevitable conclusion that these things could be supplied by a depot ship much more cheaply than by a cruiser.
  I thought two years ago that this money had been badly used. Speaking of Commando cruisers, I understand that we are to have a second, but are we to have a third? Why cannot the old hulk "Leviathan" be used for this purpose? Sooner or later the Admiralty will have to make up its mind what it is going to do about "Leviathan". Unless some use of this kind is found for her, the money spent on her in the first place will be wasted.
  Two or three years ago we heard about the Admiralty's conception of an aircraft carrier task force. We have heard nothing about it since. Is it still part of the Admiralty's conception of how our forces should be used that a task force should be grouped round an aircraft carrier? We tried to find this out last year, but we have been told nothing. In any case, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) said last week, the aircraft carrier is very vulnerable. I ventured to mention this when I first appeared at the Dispatch Box to speak in a debate on the Navy Estimates. In addition to being vulnerable from the air, the aircraft carrier has the disadvantage of being vulnerable from below the surface of the sea.
  We were told two years ago that we cannot afford any more. They are increasingly less credible and it appears

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  that there must be a very big question mark concerning the future of aircraft carriers, unless they are to be regarded simply as part of the N.A.T.O. naval strike force. If that is their function, the case for integrating them would appear to be fairly strong.
  The Civil Lord told us today about the present position of nuclear submarines. Last year, we were told that Polaris was out. Now there appears to be some doubt about this. It might, after all, happen that the Government will decide to carry the strategic deterrent in submarines, but I would remind the hon. Gentleman that last year the then Civil Lord said this about Polaris:
  "It is something which is quite beyond our own capacity to develop … without a radical recasting of the whole of naval expenditure."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th March, 1959; Vol. 601, c. 1037]
  I believe that that was a rather modest statement and that it would require a recasting of the whole of our defence expenditure, because if that task is to be undertaken by the Navy there cannot be much of a case for the Air Force undertaking it.
  We must ask ourselves whether we can afford this and, what is more important, we must ask ourselves a much more fundamental question concerning our policy on the strategic deterrent. Last week, in the debate on defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West suggested that the deterrent might be put aboard a conventional submarine. This idea has been canvassed with me and probably it has been canvassed with other people. It seems to me that the canvassing of this idea is a method of trying to avoid facing the much more difficult questions which the Government have to answer as to what our future policy on this deterrent is likely to be.
  I was interested in the Civil Lord's remarks about craft for amphibious operations. This is one respect in which the Navy has a very definite rôle. It knows that rô1e and it is not tied very closely with allied considerations. One would have thought that the Admiralty could have got on with the job. Two or three years after Suez, when some of the weaknesses were revealed, we are told by the hon. Gentleman that a great deal of thought is being given to the problem, that designs are well advanced, and that we might even have a few ships in a few
  66
  years' time. This is not good enough. This is far too slow. The Admiralty should undoubtedly carry some of the responsibility for our failure to keep up-to-date in this respect.
  We are glad that "Vanguard" is to be scrapped, but I should like the Civil Lord to reconcile two statements which he made on Wednesday in answer to two Questions. In reply to his hon. Friend the Member for Galloway (Mr. Brewis), he said:
  "The current policy is for Government ships to be disposed of for scrapping through the British Iron and Steel Corporation (Salvage) Ltd."
  Three Questions later, in reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Easing-ton (Mr. Shinwell), the hon. Gentleman said about "Vanguard":
  "I cannot give a precise statement because we are considering disposal of the ship following competitive tendering."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd March, 1960; Vol. 618, c. 1191–2.]
  I have been puzzled by this. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could explain how competitive tendering is achieved if the vessel is to be disposed of through the British Iron and Steel Corporation (Salvage) Limited.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: We might get that question disposed of straight away. It is true that in the past we have used B.I.S.C. for scrapping vessels and on occasions it has gone out to tender. We are reviewing now whether this procedure should continue for a further number of years. Therefore, at the moment, I am not in a position to say whether "Vanguard" will go to B.I.S.C. —and if it did the Corporation might itself go to another tender—or whether we might introduce a system whereby we would go to tender direct. That is why there is an apparent contradiction of ideas.
  Mr. Willis: I am grateful for that explanation.
  Turning to the Estimates rather more closely, one of the first things that strikes us is the fact that the number of personnel at the Admiralty office has increased—18 more in the warrens of Rex House with 4,000 fewer men. This is not good enough. In five years the Navy has been reduced by 31,000 out of a total of 133,000, but there are only 16 fewer at the Admiralty office.

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  The Admiralty has carried out a reorganisation of the Departments within the last year and this makes it difficult to track down some of the people about whom we have asked questions in the past. In spite of the reorganisation, however, I notice that there are more psychologists than there were five years ago with 31,000 fewer men. It will soon be much easier for a psychologist to reach the Board of Admiralty than for a scientist to do so. May I put it once again to the Civil Lord that with the highly scientific Navy we have, with some of the finest scientific equipment in the world, is it not time that, in addition to the hon. Gentleman himself, we should at least have a serving officer familiar with this aspect of the Service? I should not like to suggest which seat he might hold. I could do so, but it might be invidious.
  I notice, too, that the Admiralty has increased its scientific personnel, and the Civil Lord has explained to us that this is because of the fact that nuclear research demands a large number of scientific personnel. I want to ask one question on paragraph 38 of the Explanatory Statement, where it states:
  "Particular attention is being given to launching and control equipment for guided missiles and to counter-measures to the fast submarine. Underwater detection devices of improved performance are coming forward."
  I understood that this work was being done at La Spezia. If it is to be done there, what is the point of our duplicating the work? Is not the desirability of joint work the fact that it enables an interchange of knowledge, that it should save scientific manpower which is in short supply, and should also result in some saving of money to us?
  I see that I have taken rather a long time, but I have been interrupted a great deal. May I say one or two things about personnel? I will reserve my comments on pay for Thursday. I think that the amalgamation of the electrical and engineering specialisation in the General List is good. I ventured to suggest during last year's debate that it might also be carried out rather lower down, because on the whole it appears to me to be desirable.
  I also think that the changes in artificers' structure are fair enough, but there is still no comparable rank in the
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  Navy to the Warrant Officer I and II in the Army, or to the Master Technician in the R.A.F., and this seems to place technicians of the Royal Navy at a disadvantage. The hon. Gentleman himself talked about their great skill, and in the Navy recruiting leaflets they are described as the most skilled men in the Navy. It is not much to ask that there should be a rank in the Navy equivalent to those in the Royal Air Force and the Army which I have mentioned.
  What has happened to the Committee on Lower Deck Structure, which was set up three years ago and which reported eighteen months ago? Is it not time that the Admiralty considered its report and gave us the result of its consideration? Or is it that the Admiralty cannot do very much unless the Army and the Air Force also follow suit? We should be given some reason for the long delay.
  The scheme for mechanician apprentice is good but it does envisage two and a half years at sea as part of the training, although already in the Service we cannot find sufficient sea-going billets for men undergoing training. In reply to a Question, the hon. Gentleman told me that the difficulties had been largely overcome. I do not know what that means. He also said that no training was being held up to any significant extent. I do not know what that means either. The fact is that men cannot get to sea to complete their training, and this holds up their promotion. Now mechanician apprentices are to have two and a half years at sea, which means crowding the ships much more than at present, and also means that many of the boasts the Admiralty has made about improved accommodation will not be realised.
  While on the subject of accommodation, and, in particular, accommodation on the "Hermes", about which the hon. Gentleman said something, I received the following letter the other week:
  "I spend most of my time on new construction ships of all sizes, in between trials I usually make it my business to investigate messing arrangements, and in my opinion the situation is worsening. Even on a large ship like ' Hermes' there is not even room to sit and write a letter in the chief petty officers' messes."
  This rather destroys some of the publicity which the Admiralty has been putting out about the improvement in accommodation.

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  Now a further point about the problem of training. It has been put to me that there is a great waste of expensive ships and material equipment in sending some of those ships on various patrols and "showing the flag," trips, because while on those duties they have no submarines with which to train men in the use of asdic gear and they have no aeroplanes with which they can train men in the use of radar. This seems to me to be a legitimate criticism and suggests the need for cheaper all-purpose ships without such valuable equipment. I put forward that suggestion to the hon. Gentleman because of suggestions that have been made to me.
  Now I turn to Chatham Barracks, about which the hon. Gentleman said nothing, although last year we were told emphatically by the then Civil Lord:
  "What we have decided, is that the Royal Naval Barracks, together with a proportion of the married quarters, should be transferred to the War Office … we in the Navy are very glad to be able to hand them over. … We are keeping Collingwood Barracks, as many of the married quarters as we require, and we are staying in the dockyard."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th March, 1959; Vol. 601, c. 1031.]
  Twelve months later the Admiralty finds that it has made a mistake. Is there not some incompetence somewhere, since the Admiralty was unable twelve months ago to estimate its requirements of accommodation for the ships that might be refitted at Chatham? Was not that envisaged when it was decided to keep on the Collingwood Block, and if so, why should those barracks be taken back again?
  I received a letter about this from an ex-naval man who, after reading the news in The Times, wrote:
  "If this is all true … it is absolute nonsense. The naval barracks can house many thousands and there would be no need to retain it to house 1,000 or so. In any case, most of these men would be living ashore on Ration Allowance, either in their own homes or in married quarters. Furthermore, if accommodation was required for that number it is easily available in a part of the Naval barracks known as the Collingwood Block."
  This block was built to accommodate the artificer apprentices.
  The writer goes on:
  "Far be it from me to advocate or encourage the disposal of the naval barracks to the Royal Engineers or anyone else … but as a taxpayer I would object to the expense of the Royal Engineers building alternative barracks elsewhere when these premises are available to them."
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  It certainly seems that there is going to be some empire building here.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing indicated dissent.
  Mr. Willis: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but he knows quite well that if increasing numbers of men are to be accommodated ashore at Chatham there will be an increasing staff to look after them. There is bound to be. No justification of this has been given to us unless, of course, if some of the Press reports are true, the Admiralty has in mind the fact that we might be getting German ships to refit in this country.
  I have made a number of criticisms of these Estimates and would like to make more, but time forbids. No doubt, however, hon. Members on both sides of the Committee will add to them. This must not be taken as a prejudice against the Navy, for if there is one thing of which I am sure it is that no Service holds a greater place in the affections of the British people than the Royal Navy. But this should not blind us to the fact that there is widespread concern about the very large sums which we are being asked to vote this year. That is borne out by the results of the Gallup poll published today. The poll indicates that both Conservative and Socialist voters do not like paying more and more for defence. In fact, they seem to be against doing so.
  Year by year we are asked to vote more and more for less and less. Nobody can feel happy about this, and while it is not our intention to vote against these Estimates we are bound to express the concern that is so widely felt. Very big decisions have yet to be made, and it is our view that only if these decisions and policies are correct can that anxiety be dispelled. The responsibility for this rests not on the Admiralty, but on the Government.
  The results must be seen in terms of controlled disarmament and ever closer co-operation and integration of our naval forces with those of other nations. Only in this fashion can we hope to lighten the burden of defence and pave the way to our future security and to peace.
  5.14 p.m.
  Vice-Admiral John Hughes Hallett: This is not the first occasion on which I have had the

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  good fortune to follow the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) in a debate on the Navy Estimates. It is a pleasure to do so, although I am bound to say. if the hon. Gentleman will not think me rude, that I think in this Parliament he has become something of a Jekyll and Hyde. We sometimes see Mr. Hyde in the small hours of the morning on Scottish business, but we see more of Dr. Jekyll when we are discussing the Navy because, like so many of those who have served in the Navy and in spite of those proper criticisms which he has been called upon to make, the hon. Gentleman still retains considerable affection for the Service as, indeed, do I and other hon. Members on this side of the Committee who have had the same experience.
  I do not wish to bore the Committee by answering at length the points made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East concerning Western European Union resolutions, but I must repeat that he really must not hold those delegates who vote for the recommendations which come before the Assembly as necessarily agreeing with all the aspects of the reports which come before them. That is not the procedure. Indeed, his hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele) and myself both voted for the very interesting report by the same author, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley), on providing a European nuclear deterrent. We voted for it, but in doing so I am sure that in our minds we voted for something quite different, and said so. If the hon. Gentleman is anxious to know how far some of us on this side went in criticism of that report I would ask him to read the record of the proceedings in the Assembly, because I for one spoke at some length on the subject.
  The hon. Gentleman also had something to say on the higher strategy behind the Government's policy today in so far as it is reflected in the Navy Estimates. I will not follow him in that way at all. There have been criticisms in the Press and, indeed, in this House, of the very small attendance both of the defence debate and during the debate on the Air Estimates. Indeed, the attendance at this debate is well up to the standard of the two previous occasions.
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  I suggest that the reason why we do not get more hon. Members attending these debates is because we really have not the information on which to base criticisms of the wider issues. I spoke at some length about this in the defence debate last year and asked whether the Government might not think the time had come to lift the veil of secrecy a little. I regret that it has not been found possible to do so and therefore I do not feel qualified to express an opinion on the major strategical policy of the Government. On the other hand, there are quite a number of points of fairly big detail, if it comes to that, in these Estimates which we can follow and on which I would like to make some criticisms.
  I always feel a little unkind in doing this in Navy Estimates debates, because the Navy Estimates are presented in a clearer way than that of the War Office or the Air Ministry. The Navy's only reward for this is to receive more criticism when the Estimates are debated. Be that as it may, I would again like to refer, as did the hon. Gentleman, to the Admiralty Vote and, once again, to register a protest at its having gone up by very much the same amount as it did last year, namely, £500,000.
  This criticism has now been made year after year, and I say to my hon. Friend at once that I do not for a moment accept the story about requiring more people because of greater complexity. I think that the real reason for the rising Vote is that some of the staffs of the out-stations are too big. They make paper work which has to be sent to Government Departments to be answered. That is the root of the trouble. But, be that as it may, it is now, fortunately, unnecessary to pursue the matter, because I understand that the repeated complaints made in these debates have reached the ears of the Select Committee on Estimates and that the Committee's eagle eyes are now scrutinising the Admiralty. All I can say to my hon. Friends who serve on the Select Committee is that I wish them very happy hunting.
  Let me now turn to Vote A itself. It would appear that the running down of the Vote is becoming a good deal slower. I see that in the coming financial year it will decrease only from 106,000 to 102,000 men. I should like to ask my

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  hon. Friend four questions. What is the target figure at which the Admiralty is now aiming, and how does that compare with the sort of indication of the target figure given in the 1957 White Paper on Defence? Has the policy been changed, and has the Admiralty, like the War Office, now succeeded in persuading the Government that it must have a few more men?
  I should also like to ask my hon. Friend why it is necessary to have in Vote A more leading rates and above than there are working hands, and not a few more but a great many more, because there are more even when we include in working hands all the men under training—all the artificers' apprentices, all the boys under training, and so forth. It seems to me that the structure is getting a little top-heavy.
  I am bound to confess that I am a little disturbed about what appears to be happening on the personnel side. I hope that the forces of reaction have not gained control of the Admiralty once again. I was a little suspicious last year when we heard that what my hon. Friend called the "middies"—young boys of 20 to 21—were to go back to sea for training. I do not propose to criticise that at any length now, because, again, I do not have the knowledge. However, I served on a committee which recommended the change in the naval training practice to conform with what has always been the practice in the other two Services. We developed various arguments saying that, with the older entry, it was not appropriate to send these young men to sea to learn on the job. I am sure that not one of the arguments which was used in 1954 could possibly have changed today.
  Be that as it may, this year we have had two much more severe shocks, both of which have already been mentioned. Last week, in a Written Answer to the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East we were given the figures for officers and men at present at sea. If my arithmetic is correct, those figures show that 73 per cent. of the officers and 60 per cent. of the ratings are ashore.
  Furthermore, I am inclined to suspect that the position is a good deal worse than appears by that mere recital of percentages. What does my hon. Friend mean by "Service afloat"? Are we to
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  understand that the ships listed under "B" in page 5 of his Explanatory Statement count as "Service afloat", since they include training ships, many of which seldom go more than two or three hours from the port at which they are based? Do the ships listed in "C"—"Fleet support and auxiliaries" —count as "Service afloat"? Above all, are the crews of ships doing refits shown as being afloat, notwithstanding the fact that some of the refits may go on for a long time and that men may have to be accommodated ashore or. more sensibly, sent home on leave?
  That brings me to the second shock, which is much more severe. In a reply which my hon. Friend gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Critchley), we were told about the naval barracks at Chatham remaining open. I confess to a prejudice against barracks. I remember that the first time I ventured to take part in a debate on this subject, I was incited by the hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. W. Edwards) into suggesting that barracks should be blown up and not rebuilt.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Hear, hear.
  Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I still hold the same views.
  Let us look at the reasons given for the retention of barracks. We are told that ships will be refitting at Chatham and that during some such refits, a substantial number of the sailors and the ratings will need to be accommodated ashore. We are also told—and I cannot help feeling that this is a much more cogent reason for what must have gone on at the Admiralty—that the change also enables the Royal Naval Supply and Secretariat School to remain at Chatham instead of having to suffer the hardship of being moved to Plymouth.
  Why is it necessary to keep these men hanging about if their ships are having refits, the nature of which makes it impossible for the ships to be habitable? Why should not the men be used to man another ship from the Reserve? In those conditions, why cannot ships be paid off into dockyard control, leaving a small number of key ratings to stand by, men who could be accommodated, like Vickers accommodate their key men who go to Chatham in exactly the same circumstances and for exactly the same reason? Why should not those men be

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  paid allowances and allowed to find their own accommodation, probably with their wives and families, in lodgings or hotels in the town?
  What makes me rather alarmed about this is whether we will next hear about the reversal of the decision about the Commander-in-Chief and his staff and whether the post of C.-in-C Nore is to be continued after all. We are witnessing a reversal of the policy which has often been described to us in these debates and to the Press as "The way ahead", a policy which we came to associate with the noble Lord, Earl Mountbatten, who has now gone to the Ministry of Defence. I should like to be reassured and told that the Admiralty has not changed its slogan from "The way ahead" to "Back the way we came".
  The fact is that for a generation there have been two navies so far as personnel are concerned. There has been a navy composed of officers and men who go to sea, officers for more than half of their total service and ratings for two-thirds or three-quarters of their time. There has been a second navy which was growing all the time I served in the Navy and which has evidently continued to grow in the years since I left, a navy which practically never goes to sea. That navy should be eliminated, because the work done by the officers and men in that navy could be done with greater efficiency and at smaller cost by civilians.
  That is truer than ever it was now that the rates of pay of the uniformed personnel have been so strikingly increased. It is quite disgraceful that the Navy should keep highly-skilled young men hanging about ships chipping paint and cleaning out double bottoms when they are trained for and should be employed in operational ships at sea.
  I want to say a word about officers. One reason given for the recent considerable increase in pensions and pay for serving officers was that it was necessary to tempt more boys into joining cadet colleges, and my hon. Friend touched on one or two of the difficulties which the Navy is still experiencing. I believe that to be a mistaken argument. I believe that, on the contrary, we are probably entering too many and not too few cadets. Ever since the war, it has been the practice to fill every job requir-
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  ing an educational background higher than normally available from the lower deck with a cadet entry career officer.
  The result of that—and I do not wish to criticise only the Navy in this respect, for I am sure that it applies to the other Services as well—is that in a warship one finds officers employed as technicians, employed in jobs which call for considerable personal skill, but not for the qualities which are normally described as officer-like qualities. It is not good for them and it is a very extravagant policy.
  The type of young man far more fitted —at least, equally fitted—to carry out those jobs is the product of our modern technical colleges of which the Service makes no use. The Committee on Officer Structure which I have mentioned and which sat in 1954 was driven, rightly at the time, to recommend promotion factors far above what would normally be desirable, on account of the very poor pensions available in those days. Had it been foreseen that there would be this tremendous increase in pensions, I do not think that the same recommendations would necessarily have been made.
  That Committee recommended that there should be a new type of officer, a type whose educational background would be more comparable with those of short-service pilots and those who entered the Service with such success during the war in large numbers in the Special Branch of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, officers with three or four General Certificates of Education at Ordinary level. To some extent, these proposals were approved.
  If hon. Members will turn to paragraphs 96 and 97 of the Admiralty Fleet Order which dealt with the new officer structure, and which was placed in the Library of the House early in 1956, they will see that a Supplementary List was established. The Order explained that to begin with, the Supplementary List would be for pilots and observers only, but that its scope would be expanded when necessary to provide for the employment of Supplementary List officers in the seaman, engineer, supply and secretariat and electrical branches. It stated later that it was not intended to do that so long as it was possible to employ officers of about 50 years of age who had missed their promotion and would like to do the jobs instead. The

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  concept was, therefore, entirely different from what had been proposed by the Officer Structure Committee.
  It may be asked, why not fill some of these posts, or more of them, from the lower deck? The answer, paradoxically enough, is probably the improved educational system of the country at large. It is an unfortunate fact that except for, I think I am right in saying, the artificer branches and, to a lesser extent, the writer branches, the Navy does not enlist a large number of grammar school boys. One of the paradoxes of improving the national educational standard is that inevitably less officer material comes into the Navy by way of the lower deck.
  Surely, the answer is to create this new type of officer, something between the officer as he is now understood and the man. It always seems to me that the Admiralty is still in the 18th century, when we had the gentlemen and the labourers and nothing in between. In this way, a great gulf was fixed. It is rather as if one tried to run the Civil Service with the clerical class and the administrative class and no executive class in between. It would be exceedingly wasteful of talent and the first complaint we should hear about it was that there was difficulty in recruiting the necessary number of graduates for the administrative classes of the Civil Service. The Committee and the taxpayer would know what was coming next.
  The opposition to that view comes from people who say, "But you cannot have two different kinds of officers." I have heard it said that we cannot have Brahmins and Untouchables. I regard that argument as rubbish. Again, the answer is to be found in the Civil Service.
  Turning now to the later Votes in the Estimates, I should like to say a word about the enormous sums of money which are spent on major refits and modernisations. This is something which I have criticised before and, I have no doubt, will criticise again. It is easy to say that only the very latest gadgets will suffice when we have a small Navy, but I wonder how far that is true. We have spent £20 million on the "Victorious" and I do not know how much—is it to be another £20 million? —on the "Eagle". My hon. Friend the Civil Lord would be wise not to answer
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  Chat question. I do not expect that he has been let into the secret yet.
  The history of the "Eagle" is quite enlightening. She joined the fleet for the first time in August, 1952. I well remember, because I was the first Admiral to fly my flag in her. Even on the day she joined the fleet, an imposing list of proposed alterations and additions had been drawn up by the ship's staff. They were all desirable and all expensive and included extra dynamoes, extra evaporators, a new wardroom, better mess decks here and there and quite a lot of other things. Being devoted to the cause of economy, I made myself unpopular by refusing to allow those items to go forward, because I said that sooner or later the ship would be due for an extensive modernisation and that that was the time to do all the work. When my hon. Friend the Civil Lord replies tonight, however, I would like him to tell us, in the seven and a half years since the "Eagle" first joined the Fleet, how many months she has spent refitting and how much money has been spent in having some of these alterations done. It is an unending process.
  That raises the question of whether we can really imagine these ships fighting the sort of enemy, against whom it would matter whether the weapons were bang up to date, without the war becoming a nuclear war. I cannot imagine that happening. On the other hand, if we contemplate a nuclear war, even if the nuclear weapons were used only between the armed forces and the civil population did not have to withstand a direct nuclear attack, I do not believe that these aircraft carriers would last a week.
  My hon. Friend the Civil Lord said that the "Hermes" was able to shoot down 90 per cent. of the aircraft that attacked her. He did not tell us what aircraft they were. When I say "shoot down", I do not want to be misunderstood, but I take it that what is meant is that interception by the fighter aircraft of the "Hermes" would enable them to stop 90 per cent. of the attacking aircraft. Whether they are the equivalent of Victors or Vulcans at their maximum operational height and speed, I do not know. Even assuming that they were, it is not the least use nowadays shooting down 90 per cent. It is no use

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  shooting down 99 per cent. We must shoot down 100 per cent., because one single nuclear weapon would destroy the greatest carrier ever built.
  I ask myself whether it might not be better to have more ships of a simple nature—and to this extent I go part of the way with the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East—suitable for peace-time duties and for dealing with minor troubles. For example, as a Commando carrier the "Bulwark" is admirable. I am given to understand that before she became a Commando carrier in 1958, the "Bulwark" played a decisive part in dealing with the troubles that arose in Arabia. Her aircraft were by no means the last word in modern fighters.
  I wonder whether we are are not underestimating the Navy's rôle in time of peace. The Royal Navy still enjoys a worldwide respect and affection which is not shared by any other fighting force of any other nation. This unique reputation rests mainly neither on the Navy's achievements in the last two wars nor upon the memory of Trafalgar. It rests rather on the conduct of Her Majesty's ships during the long years of the Pax Britannica.
  For generation after generation, the Navy acted as the policeman of the seas all over the world. It became known to many millions of humble people as the friend of the weak and the helper of the distressed. There is still this rôle to be played I should have thought that it could bring this country greater influence and more good than can the possession of the very latest gadgets.
  Today, unfortunately, in playing that rôle we are hampered by lack of ships. Only twenty-five years ago, the British Navy would have been first on the scene at Agadir. and it would not have been with merely a minesweeper and a depot ship. A fleet would have arrived there. For the cost of modernising the "Victorious", we could have built about ten small cruisers or big sloops, call them what we will. I dare say the same number could be built if we left the "Eagle" as she is and invested the money in that way instead. Those ships would admirably fulfil the sort of peacetime rôle which I have in mind and be capable of dealing with the sort of trouble that can be dealt with by force today with any degree of safety.
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  I am not saying that there is no global rôle for the Navy—I am sure there is. It is the rôle which has been advocated from both sides ever since I have been a Member of the House of Commons and, I should imagine, for some years before. The proper rôle, surely, is to send part or all of the nuclear deterrent to sea and to have it afloat. I do not mean to have it afloat in the form of carrier-borne aircraft.
  Last year in a similar debate I ventured to criticise the obsession of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation with Blue Streak. I suggested to my hon. Friend the Civil Lord that the Navy might develop its own form of Polaris, that it might go to the torpedo establishment and ask for advice. I was not entirely joking. From what we know of Polaris, which is little—there has been a certain amount reported about the American trials—I think that the Americans have gone off on the wrong tack and that they will have a good deal of trouble with this weapon.
  But now we are told that the deterrent has to be indestructible if it is to be valid. That is the origin of this Sky-bolt project, but surely the Skybolt project has gone only half way to solving the problem. The aircraft carrying it will have to operate from fixed airfields which would still be vulnerable. A nuclear-propelled warship, whether operating on the surface of the sea or as a submarine, would be able to stay at sea for months if that proved necessary. I hope that my hon. Friend will resist proposals to build new super carriers or aircraft to carry the Skybolt. I feel sure it will not be long before that suggestion is put to him.
  I think we should be mistaken in thinking that a nuclear ship carrying a nuclear missile need necessarily be a submarine. It could be a medium-sized surface ship that could be designed tomorrow. It might have a tough outer skin and be fitted with anti-aircraft guided missiles, which would give it a high degree of immunity from bombing attack, and also it could be fitted with anti-torpedo protection. It would not be invulnerable or indestructible, but it would be a good deal better than a missile base in the United Kingdom.
  This is by no means a new idea, as my hon. Friend may know and as I am sure

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  hon. Members opposite who were Members of the Labour Government will recall. The same sort of idea has been advanced for over ten years. Royal Air Force enthusiasts will reply that ships would not stand for a moment against the stand-off bomb. I do not accept that, but were it true, what possible value are the carriers? They are far from vulnerable when compared with the sort of ship which I have mentioned.
  There is one aspect of this nuclear deterrent policy which worries me a great deal. To what extent is the policy being governed by inter-Service rivalries? Is the R.A.F. determined to make a corner in the nuclear deterrent and if possible to deny the Navy from having any share? Is it a coincidence that the misgivings regarding Blue Streak coincided with the emergence of Skybolt which will require both rockets and bombers? If there is anything in these fears, the sooner we merge the two Services the better it will be for the country.
  I wish to conclude on a different note. This is the year in which all men of vision and good will look for a disarmament agreement. I would not venture to prophesy, but I feel certain that there is a greater prospect of such an agreement in the coming months than has existed at any rate during my lifetime. Therefore, it is my earnest prayer —I am sure it is the prayer of any hon. Member taking part in these debates— that when we debate the Estimates next year we may no longer be concerned with a nuclear deterrent; that that will then be a nightmare fading into the past. Rather we shall be concerned, let us hope, with the need for a force of warships designed to play its part in the maintenance of international law and in the defence of the freedom of the seas.
  5.45 p.m.
  Mr. John Dngdale: The Committee always listens with the greatest possible interest to the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett). The hon. and gallant Gentleman knows what he is talking about and he speaks with remarkable clarity, so that those of us who know less can understand. I find difficulty in disagreeing with anything which the hon. and gallant Gentleman said, and particularly with his concluding remarks, but I wish to take up one
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  or two points which he made before making others of my own.
  I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman about the veil of secrecy which is cast over the affairs of the Admiralty. This applies also to other Service Departments. I agree that the case of the Admiralty is better in many respects and I think that the Explanatory Statement that we have had is very good. But even so, there is much too much secrecy.
  I agree particularly with the references by the hon. and gallant Gentleman to the numbers of officers and ratings ashore. I once had a brush with no less an eminent person than the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) on this subject. The right hon. Gentleman had a great deal to say about the large number of officers and ratings ashore at the time of the Labour Government. Apparently, it was something particularly wicked that the Labour Government had done. It is interesting to note that the same thing goes on today.
  In defence of the Civil Lord, I am bound to say that very many are in the Fleet Air Arm, so, obviously, they must be ashore, but I have no doubt that the Civil Lord can put his own defence. It is certainly a large percentage and I do not think that any of us thought to see so many ashore.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: There are the marines also, of which about 92 per cent. are ashore.
  Mr. Dugdale: Of course, there are also the marines.
  Like many other people, particularly those who have held the office, I mourn the demise of the office of Parliamentary and Financial Secretary to the Admiralty. I am glad to welcome this new office under what I feel is a rather awkward title of "Civil Lord (Parliamentary)". That does not seem to me the best of titles.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: It is just "Civil Lord".
  Mr. Dugdale: I am glad to hear it. I understood that "Parliamentary" was still attached from force of habit.
  While I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment, I do not congratulate him on having exactly the same

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  salary as he had before. I have been looking at the salary of members of the Board of Admiralty and it is interesting to see that the Civil Lord receives less than half the salary of any other member of the Board. This is an extraordinary state of affairs. Not only that, but he has a smaller salary than any of the private secretaries of members of the Board of Admiralty.
  Looking through the list I was staggered to see that that was so, except possibly in the case of his own secretary, although it may be that even his own secretary gets more than the hon. Gentleman. Anyhow, all the salaries of private secretaries of naval members are higher than that of the hon. Gentleman and I do not think that this is right. Of course, this raises an issue which goes far wider than the subject we are discussing. I realise that the salaries of all junior Ministers are involved.
  I hope that the status of the hon. Gentleman will be increased as a result of his new office. When I was at the Admiralty I thought it wrong that when the First Lord was absent the chair at the Board of Admiralty should be taken by an admiral; in other words, by a naval officer acting in the same way as a chief civil servant might do in a civil Department. I think it wrong that any Minister should have to sit at a table at which the chair is taken by a man who is not a Minister, be he a civil servant or an officer of the Armed Forces.
  This does not apply in either of the other two Services and I hope that as a result of this change of office the situation may be remedied. I do not ask the Civil Lord to comment on it now, for obvious reasons. It is something upon which I did not comment when I held the office, but I can do so more freely now.
  I wish to speak mainly on the question of submarines. On looking at the Estimates I looked, first, at the Estimates of the Admiralty Office. Last year, the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East said that he hoped the Parliamentary Secretary and Financial Secretary would look at the Admiralty Office Estimates and reduce them. He has, in fact, looked at them and increased them by £½ million. That has been the result of the efforts of the Parliamentary
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  and Financial Secretary. We hope that the Civil Lord will look at them again and perhaps be able to decrease them next year.
  I have looked at some of the more detailed Estimates. Here I speak with some diffidence as I am not as sure as I might be of the actual scope of the work, but the Undersurface Warfare Division would seem to be a division concerned, at any rate indirectly, with submarines, and which might be expected to play a very big part in the work of submarines. I find that there are 14 people in the department and that it has had no increase from last year to this year. I find, on the other hand, when I look on page 171, that the Historical Section has exactly 14 people in it, but last year it had 13.
  In spite of the Parliamentary and Financial Secretary, it has been increased to 14 and has now caught up with the Undersurface Warfare Division. I cannot think it right that there should be the same number to record the past services of the Navy as there are to prepare for the future warfare of the Navy in its most important aspect, the aspect of the undersea warfare. That is something which should be attended to. It shows that there is something of unbalance in the Admiralty Vote.
  So strange is it to me that the hon. Gentleman has not looked into it himself that he might well consult that other department, mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis), the Department of the Chief Psychologist. I see that department has gone up in numbers by one. There is one more psychologist than there was before. I have nothing against the department. It performs very good service, but its increase is an interesting point. When I was at the Admiralty a number of ratings were anxious to leave the Service, as can well be imagined, because it was shortly after the war. One was so anxious to leave that eventually he was sent to the psychologist, not to the Chief Psychologist, but to one of the junior psychologists, who saw him over a considerable number of weeks. At the end of that period something extraordinary happened. The psychologist himself put in for leave of absence from the Navy.

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  I turn to Vote 8, which perhaps is the most important Vote in the whole of the Estimates. It is a Vote of £233 million. I note that it is no less than two-and-a-half times what it was ten years ago. That is quite a big increase. I am sure that all of us will agree that it is better to spend money on equipping the Navy well and possibly having rather fewer men in it than to have a larger number in an ill-equipped Navy, but I am not quite certain that the money is spent as well as it might be. It is difficult to discover how it is spent. One has this enormous block and there is very little subdivision which makes it practically impossible to discover details of expenditure.
  I should like to know how much is spent on submarines. The Explanatory Statement says that five were launched last year. I understand that the nuclear submarine has not yet been launched.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: Not yet.
  Mr. Dugdale: Not yet, and there is one planned in addition. The Civil Lord said that it was difficult to contemplate planning any more and difficult to contemplate planning a submarine of the Polaris type because it was so expensive. I think he said that it was six times the cost of the others. I may be corrected on this by those who know better, but I understand that it is about 300 times as effective as a normal submarine. That seems quite useful. In any case, however, none of them, apparently, is to be capable of firing nuclear weapons. Why is this? My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East said that it was time we recast our defence policy.
  Mr. Willis: I was quoting from what the Civil Lord said last year, that if we were to consider Polaris we would have to consider the whole of our naval strength.
  Mr. Dugdale: It might be well worth doing that. The Navy today has an opportunity such as it has never had for the past ten years, or indeed, since the war. It has been forced by the other two Services into third place. Those of us who are fond of the Navy, and want to put it first, should make no mistake that it has been forced into third place. The Air Force, as carriers of the nuclear deterrent, naturally has the leading place and the Army, with the amount of work it has to do, has second place.
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  Here, I sound the only controversial note of my remarks. Largely as a result of Government policy in Cyprus, in Kenya, and one or two other places, the Army has had a great deal of extra work to do. One has heard of its work much more than one has heard of anything the Navy has done.
  Now we have come to a point when people are beginning to say, "Is it right that the whole of the nuclear deterrent should be concentrated in this country?" My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) put it very clearly in the defence debate, when he said:
  "a fixed site missile was an invitation and not a deterrent."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th February, 1960; Vol. 618, c. 884.]
  I will not argue whether there should be a nuclear deterrent or not. That seems much too big a subject to get involved in at the moment, but I am asking whether, if there is to be a nuclear deterrent, it is better that it should be placed in this country or placed on board ships which are floating, which are away from this country, and can be in different places.
  There are two disadvantages in having the nuclear deterrent here. The first is that it is static and everyone knows where it is. The second is the particular place it happens to be, in the middle of the United Kingdom. Those seem very large disadvantages. We have a large American force here, kept to be able to deliver the deterrent. We have little right to say to them, "Take your deterrent away" unless we can say, "We offer you somewhere else from which to fire it." That is always assuming that there is to be a deterrent.
  What we can offer them today, or should be able to offer them today, is that it should be fired from Her Majesty's ships of the Royal Navy. I do not know what ships can fire it, or if any ships can fire it, but I know that apparently the best ship for firing it, and the ship from which it could be fired with the greatest effect, is a submarine of the Polaris type. The money spent on the Navy today, therefore, could well be spent not so much on developing a large number of small ships or a large number of antisubmarine ships, as on developing a smaller number of Polaris-type ships capable of carrying the deterrent. When they are developed, and only then, can

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  we say to the Americans, and, indeed, to the Royal Air Force, "We do not want any more nuclear deterrent bases in this country, because we are providing them elsewhere." That is a task which the Navy can carry out, a task which could not be done better by any other Service, a task which would place it in the front rank of all three Services.
  Judging from the Civil Lord's speech, the Navy, unfortunately, will not be able to carry out these duties. He said that we were not to have such a ship as this. There is no possiblity of having it for some time, yet we are spending this enormous sum of money. It could be better spent on preparing a Polaris submarine than on many other items on which it is proposed to be spent.
  With all the money that the Navy has today, it could take up this rôle of being the carrier of the nuclear weapon which is now based in this country. It could take over this rôle if it was willing to prepare itself to do so, and I hope that it will. If it was prepared to undertake this duty it would again become of the first in importance among our defence Services.
  6.1 p.m.
  Miss Joan Vickers: I always feel rather diffident about taking part in a debate on the Navy Estimates, because I am probably the only hon. Member present who has not had the opportunity of serving with the Royal Navy. However, since I have been in the House I have taken a keen interest in the affairs of the Navy, and I have gone as far as my hon. Friend has in going from one ship to another in a jackstay.
  I should like to take this opportunity of saying how much we appreciate the work that the Civil Lord does, and in particular to thank him for the many problems which I send and he attends to in addition to the work that he does in the House.
  We on the Government benches are pleased that since the last election our numbers have been increased by Members who have far more knowledge of the Navy than we had previously, which is an additional reason for my diffidence in joining in the debate.
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  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) referred to the number of civilians employed. In April, 1955, there were 180,600 civilians. There are now only 150,000. That shows a drop of 30,600, and may mitigate some of my hon. and gallant Friend's feelings about civilians.
  During the defence debate there seemed to be a shift of emphasis with regard to the Navy. It seems that we are now not going to rely entirely on the nuclear deterrent, and that some reliance will be placed on conventional weapons. I presume that the Royal Navy, as has been mentioned by one or two right hon. and hon. Gentlemen, will have a bigger part to play.
  The notes in Cmnd. 949 are very helpful, and perhaps the diagrams were put in for people like myself. We have been given more knowledge this year than in previous years, though the votes themselves are tied up in a way which rather confused me.
  Dealing with the point made by the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Dr. King), I suggest that this Cmnd. 949 Paper should be sent to headmasters of schools from which boys are likely to come into the Navy. It would be of great interest to them, and would be an excellent form of publicity.
  I was delighted to see that at the end of the notes there is a map showing over 300 places visited by the Navy. Diplomatically that is a great asset. It shows, in addition, the forces that we have can be spread round the world. I presume that these visits were made during the year, but I should like confirmation of that. We have a good chance of publicising the Navy by showing that it is capable of going a considerable way round the world.
  The Minister of Defence stated that the nuclear and non-nuclear deterrents must be more mobile. During the defence debate, he said that the accuracy of the Russian rocketing seemed to prove this. It seems to prove what the hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) said, that if missiles were fired from ships they would be less vulnerable than if they were fired from a static point in Norfolk. I support that view, and I hope that we will consider having more missile-carrying vessels, besides the nuclear submarines

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  which apparently we cannot have at the present time. In this context, I should like to know what has happened to the Girdle Ness trials. Has any progress been made?
  If the Navy is to retain its rate of recruiting, it is essential that there is not a change of policy every year. People do not join the Navy because we have a different policy from year to year. I hope that we shall now get rid of the view expressed in the White Paper issued by the Ministry of Defence last year about the rôle of the Navy, and that its future rôle will soon be settled.
  We have heard a lot today about the good work that the Navy can do in rescue work, the work it did during two world wars, and during the period of the Pax Britannica. All hon. Members are anxious that whatever happens there shall be no war in future, but we realise that there is a need for a Navy to police our seas. We must, therefore, make it plain to future generations coming into the Navy what part they can play in a peacetime Navy. The peacetime Navy can play a great part. The presence of a Navy on the seas contributes to peace.
  Fishery protection has not been mentioned. I notice from the Cmnd. Paper that 53 ships were used to protect our fishing trawlers off Iceland. I understand that that is good training for the younger officers and ratings. I was interested in trying to find out the average age of the people in these ships, and I understand it is about 20. My only concern is whether there is sufficient change in the drafting of the crews. These young men go to sea for a long period, and it might be better to change the crews more frequently and give more people this experience. I know that this duty is not being carried out at the moment because the trawler fishermen have agreed not to fish off Icelandic shores until the Conference on the Law of the Sea, which I hope will be successful. If, after all, the Navy again start protecting our trawlers, I hope that the need for changing over the personnel on these ships will be emphasised.
  The feeding arrangements on small ships are not as satisfactory as they are on the larger ships. I have visited larger vessels where the messing facilities and feeding arrangements are good, but on
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  the smaller vessels the food is monotonous and cooking is done under difficult conditions.
  Paragraph 54 of the Command Paper refers to candidates for direct entry to Dartmouth. None of the candidates came from a traditional recruitment area, which is Plymouth. I wonder whether there is sufficient publicity, as I notice that very little is spent on publicity. If we are to attract the type of young men we want, both in the Navy and as apprentices in the dockyards, there must be more publicity, because the Admiralty has to compete against industry. Unless we put our policy stating the type of life in the Navy over to the public, we will not get the young men that we require. They may not volunteer for the Navy because they do not know the various careers that they can follow.
  The first paragraph of page 9 of the Command Paper says:
  "The Navy must always keep abreast of technical advances affecting sea warfare; the quality of its ships, aircraft, and weapons must match that of the other principal navies of the world."
  My hon. Friend told us today that ours is only the third largest Navy in the world. Perhaps we can be told later in what way we shall try to match the other navies. We obviously cannot do it in all sections—it is important to know how we are going to match them. Are we to match them in regard to submarine warfare, or are we to match them in regard to aircraft carriers in which the Americans are vastly superior to us? It would be very helpful to have a more definite explanation of that paragraph.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East, mentioned H.M.S. "Eagle", which at the moment is refitting in Devonport. I can assure him that he is not wrong in suggesting that the amount of money envisaged by the First Lord and publicised by our local papers will be £20 million and that it will take between three and four years to complete.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: Four and a quarter years.
  Miss Vickers: After that, will it be a modern ship? Consideration should be given either to speeding up the reconstruction of this ship or to doing it in not such a "complicated manner",

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  which my hon. and gallant Friend criticised. If a refit is to take four and a quarter years and cost £20 million, would it not be better to build a new ship, which I gather would cost about £50 million? How much longer would it take to build a new ship?
  I am saying this because I visited H.M.S. "Ark Royal". Despite its refit, I would not call it a modern and up-to-date ship. The accommodation, though very much improved, is still not equivalent to that in a great many merchant ships which I have seen. I know that naval ships have to carry more equipment. If the "Eagle" is to be re-equipped, we should think seriously about whether it can be made modern with an expenditure of £20 million or whether it would not be better to build a new ship.
  I was interested to hear that the "Ark Royal" is the first carrier to be able to operate at the same time Scimitars, Sea Vixens, Gannets, A.E.W.s and Whirlwind helicopters. This is a credit to the reconstruction of the ship and to the new technical equipment which enables her to land all these types of planes on her deck.
  What is to be the policy in regard to Her Majesty's Dockyards? I am not referring only to the dockyard at Plymouth. It is essential that the towns which are dependent on the yards should know what is to happen in the future. Are they to be merely repairing yards or are they to be turned over, as has been done in the case of Devonport at the moment, to building ships? At present, as my hon. Friend knows, we are building H.M.S. "Plymouth" and another frigate. There should be a definite policy in this. We are only too delighted to be able to build these ships in order to train young men, but if this policy is changed we might again be left with many unemployed and, if we had, have to return to repairing the Navy's existing ships. It would appear that there will not be much money for building more ships. In the present Estimates provision is made for £750,000. The other money would seem to be going simply to hurrying up those ships which have already begun.
  Furthermore, there does not appear to be any money in the Estimates for the
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  provision of new machinery for the dockyards. In many dockyards the machinery is becoming very obsolescent. There is also a need for new machine tools, but there is a reduction in the Estimates concerning these.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: It is a little confusing. Dockyard machinery has been transferred to the Navy Works Vote.
  Miss Vickers: Will there be any extra money in the new Vote for machinery? The trouble may arise from the new way of computing the accounts, but I have been informed that there is not sufficient money to make any real improvement in the machinery.
  Furthermore, there are to be cuts of about sixty in the established personnel and 601 in the hired personnel. Is this to be a continuous process? Are the dockyards to be gradually run down, and is it to be a continuing process year after year? There is an increase for wages of only about £3 million. It does not look as if the dockyards will be able to increase wages in the coming years or make any increase in the numbers employed.
  The Civil Lord was kind enough to receive a deputation about apprentices. Many yards are anxious to be allowed to take on more of these young people. The British Employers Federation has circulated its member firms, and 154 public companies have agreed to take an increase of boys into skilled occupations in 1961, 1962 and 1963. I hope that the Admiralty will consider following suit, because in certain areas there is no other industry which can take up the training of young boys.
  When can we expect the second Nihill Report to be ready? The reorganisation of Chatham and Rosyth is being carried out. This I believe is very desirable. We cannot expect to get into the dockyards the best recruits from the Services or from the engineering students if they do not know what the future organisation of the yards will be.
  Further, I am worried about the number of safety officers. There are only six of these officers employed in all the yards. There is very complicated machinery in many yards, but there is only one safety officer for each yard. If he is sick or on holiday, there is no one of his grade to take his place.

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  The dockyards are very short of welfare officers. All the yards employ many thousands of men. There are only fourteen welfare officers altogether, four of whom are at Rosyth. I hope that my hon. Friend will reconsider the position, because it would be very useful to have more welfare officers to deal with the many problems which occur in the yards.
  I asked a Question of my hon. Friend the other day about the Royal Marine Barracks at Stonehouse, and he said that he might be able to reply during today's debate. We should retain these barracks. They are very admirable and beautiful buildings. They have a long room, and also a theatre. The interior accommodation could be repaired and modernised. Then they would provide an excellent centre for the future.
  The Minister of Defence went on board H.M.S. "Bulwark", the first Commando carrier. According to the Press, he said:
  "In addition to its fire brigade rôle, which I regard as of the greatest importance, she can still act in the anti-submarine rôle."
  I suggest that we have another ship of this type which could be used particularly by the Royal Marines. Is any further action to be taken about the accommodation at Bickleigh, where men are still housed in huts?
  I wish to thank my hon. Friend for allowing the use of the Royal Naval Hospital at Stonehouse for civilians. It is a great asset at the moment when there is a shortage of accommodation in civilian hospitals.
  There is also the problem of the Admiralty constabulary. I hope that the Minister will be able to say today—he may remember that I had an Adjournment debate on this question—that there will be no further reduction in the age of retirement of these men. They are now being retired at the age of 63 and they have still two years to wait for retirement pension. This is causing hardship, and I hope that he will see that the age is not lowered any further.
  I should like to bring to my hon. Friend's attention two final points in regard to pensions. I understand that at present naval officers on special duties receive a lower pension than those on general duties. For instance, a Royal Navy officer on special duties receives £700 per annum, whereas a Royal Navy officer on general duties receives £800.
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  I believe that this is not the case in the comparable ranks of the Royal Air Force or the Army. Perhaps this has been overlooked or is a mistake, and I shall be glad if my hon. Friend will look into it and put it right?
  I want to refer to paragraphs 49 and 50 of the Command Paper in regard to the retirement age of officers. I understand that in order to carry out certain recommendations of the Report of the Grigg Committee, Command 545, there is to be an earlier retirement age. Lieut.-commanders, in particular, would like to know whether they are to be allowed voluntary retirement within the next four years. It would appear that there is to be an inroduction of this earlier age for those entering after May, 1957. This does not help a considerable number of officers because of the difficulties of promotion. Can those who cannot be promoted further be allowed to retire, as they should be allowed to, in their late 30s or 40s? There are quite a number of officers who were in the 1939–45 War for whom there is no possible chance of promotion because during the war R.N.V.R. officers were given permanent commissions. Is it the wish of the Admiralty to keep these men if they have no chance of promotion? Is there a shortage of officers of this type? Many of them would like to retire before the B scheme officers who are being released from 1960 onwards. They cannot get promotion and they would like to know what is to be their future.
  I should like to pay tribute to the Women's service. I see that they are particularly mentioned in this Command Paper, and that they are playing a larger part in the Royal Navy than previously. I also raised this matter in an Adjournment debate with regard to the Grigg Committee's Report on conditions of women in the Service, and I take this opportunity of thanking my hon. Friend for various steps that have been taken to improve their conditions.
  6.24 p.m.
  Mr. Walter Edwards: It is not my intention to keep the Committee for long and, therefore, I do not propose to follow the hon. Lady the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers) into the details of the Estimates. I want to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale)

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  and the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) with regard to Vote 12, but to refer to it on a different basis.
  It may not be apparent to many hon. Members that in Vote 12 we find a situation where there is a reduction by one in the membership on the Board of Admiralty. This has been referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) and my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich. The posts of Parliamentary and Financial Secretary and of the Civil Lord have been for the first time merged. That means that there will be one less political member on the Board than has been the case, certainly for the whole of this century, and perhaps for the last one hundred years.
  We now find in the Board of Admiralty a situation in which the naval officers retain their numbers this year— and, of course, the Permanent Secretary has to be there—but there is a reduction in the political membership of the Board. I view this change with serious concern. I am quite sure that those who believe in Parliamentary democracy will be a little worried that this century-old ratio has now altered to the disadvantage of the political members.
  I am sure that most hon. Members are aware that it is the Board of Admiralty which finally sends this Vote to the House of Commons. There is a body in the Admiralty called the Finance Committee which, for months, goes into the financial situation for the ensuing year and sends its recommendations to the Board for its final decision. Until now there have always been two political members on the Finance Committee, one the chairman and the other the Civil Lord. Representatives from other Departments go to the meetings of the Finance Committee which decides whether financial requests for the ensuing year should be allowed.
  That situation is to be changed, because of the change in the composition of the Board of Admiralty. I imagine that it will mean that the Civil Lord himself will take the chair, and I am wondering whether it will be possible for him to stand up to the Departments, when they go there, without the assistance of the other political member. I always found
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  that that was necessary, and I am sure that the Civil Lord will.
  I suggest that this reduction in the political membership of the Board of Admiralty, although voting does not take place at the meetings of the Board, will mean an increase in the power on the Board of the naval staff and a corresponding decrease in the power of the First Lord and the Civil Lord. I had the privilege of serving at the Admiralty for over six years, and it is my conviction that this change in the Board's composition will do a great disservice to the House and to the country.
  Let us look at the situation. The First Lord is in the other place. The Civil Lord is the only Admiralty representative in this House, whereas both the Army and the Air Force have two representatives. The Civil Lord has had to open this debate on his own, and, if he wants a cup of tea, will doubtless have to be replaced by his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War—who does not know the first thing about the Admiralty. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am sure that the Under-Secretary of State for War will agree that he does not know the first thing about the Admiralty's work. I merely mentioned it because it is hard on him to have to take over while his hon. Friend gets some refreshment.
  I have served on the Board with a number of admirals, with three First Lords, and with others of my colleagues in the position of Parliamentary and Financial Secretary. I do not know whether the First Lord will be one of the most outstanding men in that post that we have had, but I am sure that, without the assistance of another junior Minister, the Civil Lord's job will be much more difficult. If the Press reports were right, one read that just after the present First Lord took office his private secretary was in the wrong, because the Press photographs showed him, and not the First Lord, in a peak cap.
  It is important that we should have a First Lord of the most outstanding type, and one who can let the admirals know that he means to be First Lord. No doubt, the Civil Lord will try to help him in that way, and I am sure that he would agree that we should not have had this change. It would be much better to retain the second political member on the Board, and, perhaps, get rid

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  of two admirals—at their rate of pay, it would certainly be cheaper. The Board might then function more in accordance with a political democracy. However, it may be a little too late to examine this change.
  The Finance Committee is very important, especially at the beginning of the Estimate period. Comment has been made that the cost of the Board has gone up by £1 million. I do not know by how much it may increase next year without the watchful eye of a Financial Secretary. Most of those who serve on the Board come under Vote 12. It is, therefore, quite feasible that that part of the Estimate might be looked on fairly generously, but that, next year, we shall again find ourselves complaining of the cost.
  I hope that public notice will be taken of this change. I do not think it has been made on the initiative of the Board, although I have sometimes suspected that the naval members preferred not to have so many political colleagues. This change is one of the most retrograde steps in the Admiralty, and bears out the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich that the Admiralty will now be No. 3 on the list instead of being the senior Service. Of course it will be No. 3. If it is to be treated in this way by the Government, everyone will take for granted that it is No. 3. Those of us who have some regard for the Royal Navy should express our disapproval of the Government's action.
  It is a good job that we gat the Navy Estimates each year, or we would not notice these changes, and I see reference to another rather striking change. There was an important department called the Civil Engineer-in-Chief's Department. It existed for over a hundred years, and carried out its work most efficiently during and after the last war. It has now been given the new name of Navy Works Department.
  That is confusing to the hon. Lady the Member for Devonport in regard to machinery in the dockyards, and confusing to all of us in regard to Vote 10 and Vote 8 work. The Civil Lord has not told us why it is proposed to change the system which has worked so well in a department for which he is primarily responsible. If all the Board has to do is to change the name of a
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  department in this way, it is high time it found something better to do. I want the fullest information on this.
  The first change has been to reduce the political membership of the Board of Admiralty to the lowest figure in the last century. We are left in this House with one junior Minister—let us hope that he never has to go sick. That hon. Gentleman has to answer for the Admiralty in this House. He is responsible not only for the naval service, but for the supply services, for the Admiralty's works programme and for all industrial employees both here and abroad. Can we expect the Royal Navy to be efficient when the Government adopt such a cheeseparing reduction of the political membership of the Board? It will probably mean that this one Admiralty representative will not be able to supply the House with all the information that it requires.
  The second change means that an establishment that has been in being for over a hundred years is more or less merged with some other establishment, and we are not told whether it is for the benefit of the works programme, for the benefit of the Navy, or of any benefit to the Admiralty at all. I hope that the Civil Lord will be able to give a very considered reply to both the matters that I have mentioned.
  6.39 p.m.
  Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine: The hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. W. Edwards) made it clear that it was not his wish that the Admiralty should become No. 3 in importance. I assure him that I agree with any suggestions which he may make which will ensure that the Admiralty is not third on the list.
  Having said that, may I come at once to what I think was a striking passage in the opening speech of my hon. Friend the Civil Lord, when he talked of the co-operation between the navies of the Commonwealth and mentioned that we had 12 Commonwealth navies. That is a figure which surprised me. and if it comes as a surprise to me, I think it might be of interest to people outside the House and, indeed, outside this country.
  In the precincts of the Palace of Westminster I have been asked by some nationals of one of our allied countries how we manage to persuade the people

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  of the Commonwealth to subscribe so liberally to the defence programmes of this country. I explained to them as best I could that we had no power to do any such thing. However, I believe that there are people who are under the impression that the Commonwealth contributes in this fashion at the suggestion of us here at Westminster.
  When the Civil Lord tells us that there are 12 Commonwealth navies, it might be worth making the further point that such decisions are taken by independent countries, by people who want to accept their responsibilities for the peace of the world. This means that the strength of the Commonwealth is greatly increased, because they are free decisions.
  The Civil Lord, I think, might well on another occasion attempt to tell us a little more about the development of the navies of the Commonwealth. I know a little about the development of the Navy in Canada. In 1939, there was a very small naval force in Canada, but by the end of the war the Canadians decided that they wanted to continue to be a naval Power, and we now find them a most valued and important part of the N.A.T.O. contribution. Therefore, I suggest that the Civil Lord should see whether he can in some way make available fuller information about the Commonwealth which, I am sure, would be of interest to many of us.
  We have been discussing today the nuclear deterrent. I have always felt that the policy of the Government was right in developing the deterrent, and I have also felt that in having the deterrent, is to be found the greatest possibility that we should never see it used. I am sure hon. Members will remember that at the beginning of the last war, whether we were civilians or in the Services, we all had to carry gas masks. We did so because we knew there was a weapon in the possession of the enemy which, if it were used, could have devastating results.
  Now we have reached the stage in the nuclear deterrent where we can feel that there is, perhaps, a state of balance between the two sides, I hope that the Civil Lord and those responsible for our naval policy will not concentrate purely on nuclear activities. I believe that if, unfortunately, the time should ever come when a war has to be fought it is con-
  100
  ceivable that it will not be a nuclear war.
  I am reinforced in my conclusions by the leading article which some of us may have seen in The Times last Saturday when it considered the reasons for the lack of support in the recruiting programme for civil defence in London. The article summed up its argument in these words:
  "In short, the common feeling seems, not unreasonably, to be that total nuclear war is unlikely but that it would virtually annihilate this country if it came."
  If the people who might serve in civil defence in London come to the conclusion that nuclear war is unlikely, it is as well for us to consider the situation in which we would find ourselves if we were involved in a war which was not a nuclear war. It is impossible to range over the whole subject of naval defence, but I should like to consider one aspect in this context; that is, the position in which we should find ourselves if we should happen to be fighting a war against submarines.
  The only information which I possess is available in the documents with which we have been supplied. If we look at pages 4 and 5 of the Explanatory Statement we find that the ships in the operational fleet and those engaged on trials and training which would be suitable for anti-submarine operations—the smaller ships—number 23 destroyers and 39 frigates. If we turn over the page we find reference to ships of all classes in reserve, numbering 29 destroyers and 37 frigates. These total 52 destroyers and 76 frigates.
  The Civil Lord said that we might find ourselves engaged in dealing with 500 submarines. Some of us have heard an even higher figure mentioned, but let us assume that many of those were engaged in other fields of endeavour and suppose that we had to deal with only 100 in the Atlantic. I wonder whether any of us who saw the anti-submarine war in the Atlantic in the last war would feel happy if we knew that we had only 52 destroyers and 76 frigates available.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Has not the hon. Gentleman left out of his calculation the fact that there is also the large naval strength of America and other naval countries?
  Mr. Godman Irvine: If the hon. Member, who is always nimble in his arguments, would be kind enough to wait he would find that that was the point with which I was about to deal.
  As the hon. Gentleman will recall, I was dealing only a few moments ago with our Commonwealth naval strength. We also have N.A.T.O. in which there are massive forces. At the end of the last war I was with the United States Navy, and I had the greatest admiration for the work that it did. However, there was a time during the last war when the people in the United States had its eyes firmly fixed on the Pacific, and some of us who were fighting the war at this end felt that for quite a long period there was not quite the same devotion to the war which was being fought in Europe as there was to the war in the Pacific.
  That is no criticism whatever. All I am saying is that we might find ourselves in a similar position again. We might find that if the United States was harried on both its coasts by different forms of attack, it would not be quite so eager to deploy all its forces to come to the assistance of this country.
  The Canadians have specialised in anti-submarine warfare, so we would doubtless be able to rely on them. But the point I am making is one which has already been made by my hon. and gallant Friend She Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) and by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis), that we do not have the information on which we can make any real assessment of the position. I have raised this point on other occasions, as have other Members, and I would reinforce the plea which has been made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East and the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East, that there ought to be some way in which a little more information could be given to us, because it may well be that this point has been dealt with in our various alliances and agreements.
  During the debate on defence last week my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence mentioned that it was
  "… not customary or proper for one member Government of N.A.T.O. publicly to disclose the details of the numbers and so on, but in
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  my researches I found a very good pamphlet recently issued by the Institute of Strategic Studies and entitled "The Soviet Union and N.A.T.O. Powers—The Military Balance". This pamphlet quotes certain figures and I can tell the hon. Member from my own knowledge that those figures seem to me to come from a well-informed source."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st March, 1960; Vol. 618., c. 1150.]
  I know that "military" sometimes includes "naval", and I have not seen that document. It may well be that in that document we can get a good deal of the information which we require. But if it is not there, I would ask the Civil Lord to take a look at this problem and see whether there is some way in which we can get better information about the actual defence position of this country should we be faced with, for example, anti-submarine warfare.
  We are in exactly the same position if we look at the future. Figures of ships being built are given on page 12 of the Explanatory Statement, and in pages 220 to 229 of the Estimates. But insufficient information is given for hon. Members to form any adequate idea of what is likely to happen. The words
  "Other ships are on order …"
  does not take us very far. It may well be that we cannot have complete details of everything, but the 17 frigates which are mentioned would not carry us very far in the shipbuilding programme and that is nearly all the information about the future which we are given for anti-submarine ships.
  I know that there is a school of thought which says that the right way to fight submarines is by other submarines, and we have heard of the extra nuclear submarine which is to be built and of the possibility of its being used in this way. There is a passage in the speech of the Minister of Defence in the defence debate, when he referred to this matter and said:
  "As to the rest of the scene, we must get into the nuclear submarine business because we may need these submarines for the hunter-killer rôle and equally for the missile-carrying rôle. It is, therefore, quite right that we should lay down our first nuclear submarine".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th February, 1960; Vol 618, c. 852.]
  What did the Minister of Defence mean when he said that we needed these submarines for "the missile-carrying rôle"? So far as I know, we have not entered into that business, which the Minister of Defence said we should get into.

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  We have been asking for mobility and for methods of carrying troops speedily, and now we have the Commando carrier "Bulwark", for which we are all grateful. However, this carrier might be needed in anti-submarine warfare and I hope that in the operational work which "Bulwark" carries out there will be some regard for the fact that in a limited way she could be used as an anti-submarine vessel. I hope that some time will be given to her training for anti-submarine work.
  I want to refer to the assistance which the Civil Lord and Admiralty have given to hon. Members to visit the fleet. When I first became a Member of Parliament it was occasionally indicated that it would be possible for some of us to visit ships of the fleet. Although I applied on such occasions as were open to me, nothing happened for about three years. During the last two or three years, however, the situation has appeared to be entirely different and I thank the Civil Lord and those responsible for the facilities which have been offered, and I have to say how much they are valued by all hon. Members.
  The hon. Member for Edinburgh, East spoke of the results of a Gallup poll being published today and providing some results of which, unfortunately, I am not aware. Evidentally, the hon. Member has been reading a newspaper which is not included in those which come to me.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: It is the Scotsman.
  Mr. Godman Irvine: Perhaps it is not surprising, then. I was going to say that is was not a newspaper which circulated in my constituency, because the one thing of which I am confident is that my constituents would like to see the Navy occupying a strong place in the defences of this country.
  6.55 p.m.
  Mr. E. L. Mallalieu: Like the hon. Member for Rye (Mr. Godman Irvine), most of us, in present circumstances, want to see the Navy as strong as we can afford. I say "in present circumstances" because constant efforts are being made to achieve disarmament. And we all hope they will succeed. However, we ought not to be too sanguine
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  about those efforts, because many people think—and I am one of them—that there will never be disarmament as long as we hang on to the ridiculous idea of sovereignty appropriate to a bygone age. Since most people hang on to it to a very large degree, we find it necessary to have Service Estimates, which many of us would like to do without. When we have Service Estimates, it is our duty to see that the money is properly spent.
  I have two points to make before coming to the short main theme of my contribution to the debate. Perhaps a note can be taken of the first, because I should like a reply, although not necessarily in this debate. From Vote J, Subhead Z, I see that there are to be fewer Commonwealth students at the Britannia Royal Naval College, Dartmouth, this year than there was last year. With Nigeria beginning to have a navy and with Ghana starting a navy, I should have expected more students than usual. Can we be told how in these circumstances there are to be fewer?
  I had an opportunity to meet the first two Nigerian cadets when I last visited the college, and very fine fellows they seemed to be. I thought that if people such as this were to follow them Nigeria would not have very much to fear in naval matters.
  About three weeks ago, I was privileged to be conducted by the captain around the Apapa Naval Base, at Lagos, where the beginnings of the Nigerian Navy were very much in evidence. There, I saw a handful of British officers rendering devoted service and I thought what a pity it would be if that sort of thing were to come to an end. I hope that this diminution in the number of cadets at the Britannia Royal Naval College, Dartmouth, is not indicative of a trend which is to set in, because there is something at that college from which students can benefit and which they can take back to their own countries. If they do so, it will be very much to the future advantage of both our countries. I hope that we shall continue to do all we can to help this friendly people.
  The second comparatively small point is about the service which is being rendered, or was rendered until recently, by the Royal Navy in Icelandic waters. I see the hon. and gallant Member for Wells (Lieut.-Commander Maydon) in

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  his place. Like him, last summer I had the opportunity of going into Icelandic waters to see this work. I do not know whether he went into the Arctic Circle, but much of my experience was in the Arctic Circle and I saw at first hand the absolutely splendid work done by the Royal Navy there.
  As hon. Members are aware, parts of the sea around Iceland are divided into havens, perhaps 20 miles in width and going out from Iceland to the limits claimed by Iceland. In those havens our trawler men can go about their lawful occasions under the protection of ships of the Fishery Protection Squadron.
  It was my very great honour to be on the vessel commanded by the Commodore of the Fishery Protection Squadron and to see what work was being done by the Royal Navy in this serious problem of the Icelandic fishery dispute. Every trawler which came into the haven had to report to the naval vessel which was the centre of the seaborne community. Trawlers are not able to go into Icelandic ports or shelter, even in emergency, for fear of being captured and suffering crippling fines and imprisonment.
  It is a seaborne community entirely, and the naval vessel is the centre of it. Every night the commodore had fireside chats, so to speak, with the trawler skippers to keep them in the picture and produce team work; and it was a remarkable experience to listen to them. I have more than a shrewd suspicion that it is due to the amazing combination of maritime bluntness and diplomatic tact shown by that man and She men he commanded that we have managed to avoid this Iceland dispute turning into a hot war, with shooting and all the rest of it. I am glad to have had the opportunity to pay tribute to him here, because I know how much hon. Members like to hear from first-hand experience of other hon. Members, about the jobs that these men, whom we have sent out. do in distant parts.
  I should like to return to a point raised by the hon. Member for Rye about the knowledge which we can have in approaching a debate of this sort. It seems to me that back bench Members are quite incapable of making genuinely useful contributions to the serious problems which often arise in this sort of
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  debate. They can make detailed suggestions and criticisms about points in the Estimates, but on the really serious matters we have not the sources of information which are needed to enable us to stand up to the Government.
  For instance, we have nothing like the Library of Congress, where there are trained and qualified librarians to collect material for Congressmen. This material goes through civil servants of administrative rank, who predigest it and present a brief to the Congressmen. This enables Congressmen to put forward a case and to stand up to the Government. The St. Lawrence Seaway would never have been constructed if it 'had not been for the fact that the Library of Congress supplied briefs to Members of Congress showing that the Government were wrong in their facts and figures. We have nothing like that, and there is, therefore, little that we can do. It is very much with a feeling of our own limitations that I shall make the comments that I am about to make.
  Apart from Polaris, which does not seem to me, strictly speaking, to be a naval matter, it seems to me that the Navy of today should have two main functions. The first, the fire brigade function, is to go to any part of the world where trouble arises and try to put the fire out. The Admiralty has dealt with that matter by the Commando carrier task force method.
  The other main function is to keep our lines of communication open in a non-nuclear war. I am not dealing with a nuclear war, because in such an event, —search me!—I do not know the function of the Navy. It may be that some people in the Admiralty think that they know; but I doubt whether they in fact know. In any case, we do not know what they know and have not the means of finding out. I therefore leave that matter out altogether.
  To return to the fire brigade function, I think that the Admiralty is on the right lines with the idea of the Commando carrier, with its attendant escorts of antisubmarine vessels and supply ships. How many there should be, I am not certain. It may be four anti-submarine frigates and two guided missile destroyers, although these latter are not in existence yet. What will happen if such a force meets serious air resistance?

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  H.M.S. "Bulwark" and the other Commando carriers which are yet to come will be completely defenceless. They have to have other vessels and aircraft to defend them. If they are to be able to stand up and not go straight out of the fight if they meet serious air resistance, they will have to have a carrier in attendance with fighter aircraft; and this means more escort vessels for the carrier. Even in this case, where I feel that the Admiralty is on the right lines, there is a serious gap which has yet to be filled.
  I now come to the other aim which the Navy should have, that of keeping open the sea lanes in case of non-nuclear war. What have we in the way of frigates? I need not go through the figures in detail, because they are probably well known. We have 23 operational anti-submarine frigates and 37 in reserve. We have seven operational anti-air frigates and 12 in reserve. Also, we have destroyers. Even including the vessels in reserve, we have still far less in the way of anti-submarine defence than we had at the height of the Hitler menace, which was not anything like as great as the Russian one apparently is.
  I am not forgetting that we are members of N.A.T.O. and that N.A.T.O. countries contribute to our defence in the same way as we contribute to their defence, but we in this House are not able to estimate the extent to which the interplay of other N.A.T.O. countries including the United States Navy on our defence has any real effect. I believe that we have just nothing effective, even with the help of our N.A.T.O. friends, to cope with this known menace.
  Are the Admiralty and the Government satisfied with the present situation? Do they think that in the foreseeable future we shall ever have a defence that will be able to stand up to the menace of the submarine fleet of the U.S.S.R.? It seems to me extremely improbable, whether there are nuclear submarines in the Russian fleet or not, and it would be very unwise obviously to assume that there are not.
  Secondly, even if there are not nuclear-propelled submarines in the Russian fleet, if we are to be defended against the threat of that fleet, is it not essential that we should have nuclear submarines our-
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  selves? I know that one is coming along and that another is planned. Is it not essential that we should have a nuclear-propelled submarine defence against the submarine menace of the Russian fleet? We do not even know how much it. would cost us to have such a defence, either in conventional surface craft or in the nuclear-propelled submarines. We should know the relative costs and effectiveness of the two ways of defending ourselves against that menace if we are to make sensible decisions. We do not know these things at present.
  I know that it is far more easy for the Admiralty to jog along in its own sweet way, not taking this House into its confidence and not telling us the facts which we must know if we are to be useful in making our criticisms: but we must have the necessary information. It is well over a year since I, and no doubt many other hon. Members, said that we should be given the opportunity of knowing the basic facts of naval life and the strategies called for at present. This can be done by lectures, perhaps, to all hon. Members interested in these matters who are prepared to follow them through. It is not good enough for us to have to fish about in the Library to find the facts amongst bits of paper.
  At present, we cannot do our duty. The Admiralty will not do its duty by this House unless it takes steps to take into its confidence hon. Members who are willing to devote time to the matter so that they may adequately keep the Admiralty on its toes. If the Admiralty does not do this, it will not be doing its duty to the House, and hon. Members will be unable to do their duty by the country and by the electors who have sent them here.
  We all want to do that duty. Will the Admiralty help us to do it? I hope that we shall have an effective answer to our request which will put us in the position in which we all want to be put —to fulfil our duty to the country which has put us here.
  7.10 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Howard: The hon. and learned Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu) will forgive me if I do not follow him into his extremely useful arguments, except to endorse every word he said about what the Service has done during the very difficult time

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  in Icelandic waters. As one who commanded a ship in those waters during the war, I know how extremely unpleasant conditions are, not only in the gales in winter but in the summer as well. It is a good thing that the House of Commons should pay tribute, especially at this time just before the forthcoming Law of the Sea Conference in Geneva, to the work of the Service.
  I would also like briefly to refer to the remarks of the right hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. W. Edwards) about the First Lord of the Admiralty. I am not making any reflection against the present incumbent of that office when I say that many of us would wish to see the First Lord in the House of Commons. If that is not to be, however, we have in the First Lord a man who has given much devoted service to the country in responsible and important offices.
  It was not quite fair that we should have what I call a newspaper stunt which was put out by a certain newspaper which does everything it possibly can to "poke Charlie" at the Navy and be derogatory about the Service. Unfortunately, the other newspapers picked up the story. It was a rather stupid and unimportant thing of the kind which one comes to expect from the newspaper in question. We should not treat it except with the contempt that it deserves. To make the kind of remarks that that newspaper made about the First Lord of the Admiralty was just about as absurd as many of its usual comments.
  Page 9 of the Explanatory Statement refers to "complexity, complements, and costs". These three things are extraordinarily important. First, complexity. During today's debate, we have heard many remarks about the future young men who will come into the Navy. In the future, we are likely to face an extremely difficult situation in view of the complexity of the armament, machinery, radar and the rest that goes into our ships. The time will come when the kind of men who will get into the responsible positions of leadership will have had more time dealing with complex equipment than dealing with men.
  This is a problem which must be looked into and thought out now, because the old days of what used to be known as the "salt horse", or the
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  "executive" officer with no specialisation, are bound to disappear and we shall get the difficult job of marrying up the claims of the man who is an expert leader of men, who has been brought up for the task by his training, experience and everything else, vis-à-vis the highly-skilled technical man who, by the very nature of his work, does not have the ability, the time or the chance of the leadership that the other man would have had in the past.
  We have heard a good deal today on the subject of complexity of design. We must strike a balance between what I call the old Heath Robinson arrangement and the other extreme. Many of us who have been involved in refit of ships will know the story. One man puts a pipe from one place to another. A second man comes along and says, "That is awkward. That is just where I wanted to put mine." So he puts a bend underneath the original pipe. A third man then comes along and says, "That is just where I wanted to put mine." And so there is another bend. Amongst the sailors, the story goes that the men fitting the pipe get £5 for every bend and that that is why there are so many! That may be so or not—I do not know.
  Against that, I believe that in the American Navy all design is broken down by draughtsmen so accurately and to such a small scale that a lot of this kind of thing is obviated. I am told, however, that if we were to do the same, the enormous cost of doing it would make it quite prohibitive, if not impossible. Somewhere between these two extremes, however, there must be an answer. There must be an answer also to leaving all the pipes, leads and everything else exposed. I know that in new ships, they are being covered. There was every kind of excuse for it not to be done in the past, but I believe that we are overcoming that.
  In the case of refits or new construction, I wonder whether the Director of Naval Equipment is sufficiently senior and has enough power. If something is badly designed, is he sufficiently senior to be able to thump the table and to ensure that it is put right or is stopped before it is too late? In one carrier which I have visited recently, the officers' galley was sited three decks above the wardroom. That is disgraceful. Things like this simply should not happen today.

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  We have not built a new carrier from scratch for twenty years. We have refitted old ones and not-so-old ones, but we have not actually built a new one. In the present state of affairs, all our carriers will be running out at about the same time. What will happen then? What is the thinking on this? I shall have something to say presently about work study, but are we putting out what I would call a really high-powered study design team to consider a new carrier if we are to have one?
  Consider, for example, the viewpoint of the young man who goes into the Navy today. He wants to know whether we will have carriers in 1970. If we will —and I think we will—are we getting down to the matter of design? I am not talking of the D.N.C.'s department or similar people, but of high-powered men who have operated aircraft carriers at sea, be they seamen, specialists or supply people, the men who have to keep the ships operating for long periods under all sorts of conditions, who have had to deal with the kind of awkwardnesses that we get in ships. Are we really getting out a first-class design team to look into all this sort of thing?
  What consideration has been given to the question of stabilisers? I know that in carriers as a whole they might not be necessary, but I foresee the day when, with larger and larger aircraft, even a slight roll when an aircraft is being handled might cause damage. This is merely one of the many things which should be considered.
  Complement is extremely important. I was delighted to hear the tributes that were paid during the defence debate. It is quite right that something like 49 per cent. of the money spent on the Services should be devoted to personnel. I had the great honour and privilege of spending a few days in a carrier on a recent visit to Hamburg and I saw for myself what the new sailor is like. He is very different from the man we used to know and respect so much in the war. He has grown with the country and with the better state of affairs of the majority of people. His home, his outlook and his training, and everything about him are different. I am not running down the men who made the Navy great through the centuries.
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  I am merely saying that these young men in the Navy today are a very different type of young man. I am immensely struck with their politeness. I am struck with the easy though very respectful friendship between officers and men. I think one sees that particularly in a carrier, going fore and aft along one of the long alleyways, stepping over those sills we heard so much about last year, and coming in contact with very many men; one learns how polite and friendly they are.
  I cannot tell hon. Members how impressed I was during that visit to Hamburg. There is no doubt that such visits as that are most valuable and informative. I am told that there were more people at the Press conference in Hamburg than there had been at the one in America. Certainly a huge crowd tried to get on board to see the ship, and there was almost a riot, such was the demand to get aboard. There were literally thousands of people, and there was a traffic jam ten miles long so many followed the ship up river.
  I do not think it is any exaggeration to say that one of the greatest assets we have on that sort of trip is the sailor and the way he behaves. We officers going out in the evenings often met the sailors and had a cheerful word with our ship's company. They were behaving as one proudly expects them to behave in public in a foreign land. I think that is the sort of thing of which the public at home ought to be told a great deal more. We often hear in this Committee about our men being ambassadors and so on, but I am talking in down-to-earth terms. The news about our sailors was in every newspaper in Germany and on the radio and television, and they all had a good word to say about them, and the good our men did was enormous.
  In this country we do not do enough to publicise them and to put their story over. A lot could be done by publicity, by films—films, for instance, to show the kind of conditions in which the men live ashore today, conditions which are vastly improved.
  I must say something about food, which comes under the general heading of complement, because food is so vitally important. I have in my hand the most amazing photographs of the kind of food

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  which I saw being eaten by the men in the forward dining hall of that carrier. I personally thought they were jolly lucky. To be quite frank, I think their food was better than that in the wardroom. One could not have seen better food, and the men themselves told me that it was quite delicious. They told me that when they were at Gibraltar—I think it was—some time ago they had a lot of chaps coming from other ships to eat with them. The "buzz" about their food had got round, and the men from other ships were joining the queue hoping to get "big eats".
  I think it is an excellent thing that they should have such good food. It is essential that we should give the very best to men in carriers like that, who work so hard and who have such a tremendous time at sea. From that point of view, I think their conditions are a great deal better than they were.
  I should like to say something about officers for a change. In a place like Hamburg officers are always delighted to play their part in entertainment, for which the Navy is justify famed and of which it is justly proud. They receive large numbers of people coming on board whom they do not know but whom they are delighted to entertain. I wonder just what is the situation about entertainment and Income Tax.
  This has been a sore point with me for years. I remember when I was commanding a ship in the war and had large numbers of people coming on board and my wine bill was extremely large. I put in for an allowance. I was told that because I was a lieutenant-commander I could not have one, that only commanders got it, but I had to do just the same entertaining as a commander. It seemed very unfair, and I think this is something that ought to be looked into, and something ought to be done about it with a view to reasonable expenses for entertainment being set off against tax.
  Now I come to a subject I have raised before, the R.N.R. It does seem unfair for R.N.R. officers going on weekend training alongside R.N. ships that in R.N. ships drinks are duty-free but the R.N.R. drinks are not. I have raised this privately with the Admiralty, and I have been told, "Do not do anything about it. because if you do the Navy may
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  suffer loss of its privileges." I think that most unfair, if I may say so. It is not a very strong argument. I think we should make it not two negatives but one positive, and say that if ships are for the training of reserves who are giving up their weekends there should jolly well be tax-free drinks in the wardrooms in those ships, too, with no question of the Navy suffering.
  As to costs, some people say sailors are expensive people. It was said by my hon. Friend the Civil Lord just now. Of course they are. They have to be properly trained, they have to be properly fed. But there is a point I would stress. I think that, especially in a shore establishment, if a man goes, for instance, to H.M.S. "Vernon" for training in antisubmarine work, or in some other form of specialisation, it rather goes against the grain if he has to spend much of his time on his hands and knees scrubbing out a bathroom. I know sailors have to do it at sea. That is one of the unpleasant necessities they come to in due course, but is it necessary in shore establishments where specialised training is going on?
  I was happy to see one establishment recently where they were employing civilians—women—to do this job in the petty officers' quarters, their cabins, and so on. As was pointed out to me by the president of the mess, these good ladies who do the cleaning are trained to do it and, therefore, they do it better, and fewer of them are required than would be the number of sailors to do the same job." After all, the sailors' job is to be learning the specialisation for which they go to such an establishment. Surely, then, if there are ladies who can come in to clean, they should be allowed to, and this also gives employment to civilians. That is a matter which ought to be looked at.
  Now I come back to the question of works study in the attractively got up papers we have quite rightly been given. Works study is something which the Navy does very well. I am told that I.C.I, say there is no better works study team anywhere. However, I just wonder what works study is done on the Civil Service side of the Admiralty. I see that it is stated that there is a works study team, but I am not quite sure what they do, and I should like to know exactly what happens, because I have

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  heard it said that there is no works study. It is rather a taboo subject. I should like to know what goes on about that.
  Again as to cost, I believe it right to say that approximately £14 million are being spent on surface equipment and £1·6 million on underwater weapons. We have heard a good deal on the subject of submarines and so on, but it is not only submarines which this expenditure covers. We have to think of mining and counter-mining measures.
  Take, for instance, the question of mining. Suppose some man lobs a mine over the side of a felucca in the Gulf of Akaba. The very thought of its being done will at any rate for a while bring all shipping to a standstill In that connection, I am glad to see that in this year's Explanatory Statement a minesweeper squadron now released from Cyprus will go East of Suez. Are we happy that we have enough of these excellent coastal minesweepers, which are first-class training vessels not only for R.N.R.s but for giving naval officers a bit of sea time, which many of them, alas, lack owing to shortage of ships?
  Now, we come to the question, which loomed so largely in the defence debate, of the Blue Streak. I am not going into the matter in detail now, but I wish to say that if we have to make up our minds on the matter I personally am 100 per cent. behind the mobile deterrent. It seems to me that it is only common sense. If we have a ship or an aircraft, we know that it is far harder to locate than anything at a fixed site in East Anglia. Therefore, I am not going to advocate Polaris, but whether this is to be done from an aircraft, or submarine, if Blue Streak is allowed to run down, let us make up our minds on the one thing we can afford to do. If it is not to be Polaris, I suggest that we should try to make some lease-lend arrangement with the Americans by which they would undertake the Polaris project and allow us to get the benefit of it. I think that is a most important matter.
  I apologise for speaking at much greater length than usual, but, unfortunately, I was unable to take part in the defence debate. There is one other point I wish to mention concerning our world-wide commitments. We have
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  heard about Agadir and Mauritius, but it is stretching the Services quite a lot in expecting them to go to all sorts of places in addition to those to which, traditionally, the Navy has been expected to go. There is also the question of whether the service can get there.
  We have heard about fisheries protection and the fire brigade rôle of the Navy. On the question of the fire brigade rôle, we must not be too glib in our ideas that these Commando carriers, which I welcome very much, could be instantly interchangeable with carriers of A.S. capability. The A.S. helicopter has to have a different team, with different maintenance and probably different operating conditions, and I do not know how long it would take to effect the change from one rôle to another.
  I was interested to hear what the Civil Lord had to say about those Russian bases. I mentioned just now the instance of the mines and the felucca. We must be prepared, not so much for the Russians starting something with submarines, but for something started by Russian submarines lent to somebody else. That is what we ought to watch— some Egyptian or some creature of that sort.
  On the subject of afloat support, I think this is vital. When one looks at the quotations about afloat support and also looks up the references in these Estimates one sees a very interesting situation. In the Explanatory Memorandum, we find:
  "Last year approximately one-third of all the fuel used by H.M. Ships was supplied in this way, as compared with a mere 10,000 tons in 1949 and none at all in 1939."
  One therefore realises the importance of the matter. It has been found to be far more practicable, because it is now realised that oilers can carry on oiling a carrier while that carrier is turning into wind in order to fly an aircraft, and that is an astonishing thought. They do not just steer on one course, but can actually turn while refuelling. Surely, anything that was possible during the last war should be more easily achieved now. Replenishment today is mostly carried out at sea. It is easier and quicker as men are available who would otherwise be on leave.
  We must also consider the question of the lost bases, including Cyprus. We

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  must remember the bases which have been lost to us in the last 20 years, and should also remember the airfields we have lost, and yet I do not think that we have had a carrier sunk since 1943. I think we must go 100 per cent. for afloat support and for a completely mobile force, which I think is essential. I have already referred to the mobile deterrent and do not wish to press that matter any further, but I should like my hon. Friend the Civil Lord to make a note of the point I have made about Polaris and to ask the Minister if we could have some lease-lend arrangement with the Americans.
  On the subject of nuclear submarines, I think everyone should read a book on the subject by Commander Anderson of the United States Navy, which gives us a picture of the incredible future of the nuclear submarine. We talk about the A.S. menace and the A.S. rôle and what can be done with conventional submarines, but, as somebody said to me the other day, "When it comes to the nuclear submarine, I might as well throw my binoculars at it." I am quite sure that the Service is working on this problem, looking ahead and thinking of something that will be effective against the nuclear submarine, possibly using the nuclear submarine. I know that these things are very much in the future, but I am sure that the Departments concerned are thinking about them now.
  The last point I wish to make on the subject of afloat support concerns the reference that my hon. Friend made in his speech to balanced forces. We have been talking about the fire brigade rôle. The Navy is mostly ready at 48 hours notice. I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War has gone, but the view has been expressed to me that the Army takes three months. Therefore, it is quite obvious which is the better fire engine to send to the fire, and I wonder whether it is possible for us to be told by my hon. Friend what is being done about a balanced force— some kind of force which could be instantly available to be sent to trouble spots throughout the world. Is it to be done by means of Commando carrier with a brigade group?—I am talking about soldiers as well—and can my hon. Friend tell us anything about that? It seems to me that with the loss of our bases and so on, this is something that we ought to be thinking about.
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  To sum up, I think the Royal Navy is worth a packet of cigarettes a week to everybody in this country. That was the figure of the cost given by the Minister of Defence, and it reminds me of the story of two sailors whose ships came alongside each other. One said to the other, "What's it like to be in the second largest Navy in the world?" to which the other replied—and one can guess Who he was—"What's it like to be in the second best?" I think that we have the best Navy in the world, with the highest technical developments.
  We cannot have the largest Navy, but we must keep up with the highest technical developments. We also have an excellent nucleus of material and men, of whom we are proud, as we have always been in the past. I am happy to see that 49 per cent. of our expenditure is now going on personnel, and I repeat that the Royal Navy is well worth the cost of a packet of cigarettes a week to everyone in this country.
  7.40 p.m.
  Dr. Horace King: I always feel on the annual occasions of debates on the Navy Estimates that I ought to apologise as a landsman for intervening in what comes almost to be a kind of conversation between seamen. Indeed, the atmosphere is so nautical that one would not be surprised if someone passed round the port, except that on my side it would no doubt be the rum ration.
  My constituency is more intimately connected with the Merchant Navy, the sister Service, and the Navy knows that I am a fierce critic of certain aspects of naval recruiting on which I propose to speak again tonight. Yet whenever I have gone to see the Navy I have been received with the courtesy of which the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) spoke. That kindness and friendship officers of the Navy have extended to a critic in their midst.
  Another reason for my not making any apology for intervening is that I propose to speak about youngsters entering the Navy, and my own work has always been on behalf of the young people of England. The hon. Member for St. Ives said that we were getting a navy for the price of a packet of cigarettes per person per week. That is no doubt literally true. We are

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  spending 2 per cent. of the national income on the Navy, out of the 8 per cent. of the national income that we are spending on defence.
  I hope that hon. Members opposite who will vote quite happily for the 2 per cent. and the whole 8 per cent. will, when we come to discuss the Crowther Report on the education of the young, against the background fact that we are spending only 3½ per cent. of the national income on education, equally eagerly vote in favour of our providing the advance in education that the Crowther Report demands, at a cost which will still be well below the 8 per cent. of national income spent on defence.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: And less than the price of a packet of cigarettes.
  Dr. King: Yes.
  I want to return briefly to a topic which I raised recently in a debate on the Adjournment and which I have raised again and again ever since I became a Member of the House ten years ago. I do not want to repeat this evening what I said in that Adjournment debate, although I am tempted to do so because if I remember rightly the only persons present on that occasion were Mr. Speaker, the Parliamentary Secretary concerned, and myself.
  It is common ground between the Civil Lord and myself, and between hon. Members opposite and myself, and between the best men in the Navy and myself, that the Navy ought to be officered by men of ability, intelligence, character, initiative and personality. Especially in these days when the Navy is advancing and we are living in a scientific and technical age and the demands of the Navy are for high skills, trained intelligence becomes far more important among the officers than it ever was before.
  I think that it is common ground again among all the people that I have mentioned and myself that all the boys who have these qualities are not born in one social group—the group that go to the independent schools or the public schools. But it is still true that the bulk of the boys selected for cadetships in the Royal Navy this year and last year came from public schools. Hon. Members will
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  have seen in the Explanatory Statement a list which has been printed for the first time of the schools from which our cadets are drawn. The healthy thing about that list is that it is the longest in the history of the Royal Navy. The Navy is recruiting officers this year from more schools than ever in the past 200 or 300 years. But while every public school is in the list, the number of State grammar schools in it is smaller. Many of the big public schools send many pupils, not one, but a grammar school gets into the list even if it sends only one, and obviously there are at least ten times as many State grammar schools in the country as there are public schools. The existence of one or two State grammar schools in the list therefore does not invalidate the case I have made year after year. One swallow does not make a summer.
  I do not propose tonight to go into what I have said in previous debates about selection. I want to put the matter in another way. The Government have devised an instrument which, if properly used, can give us a wide field of youthful ability to draw on. The scholarship system for the selection of boys who will ultimately go to Dartmouth, as to the Royal Air Force colleges, Sandhurst and the Army colleges, provides that if a boy is selected for a cadetship his parents need have no financial fear about his future. He can get the full cost of his education, board, uniform and, in the words of the Estimates, "sundry expenses" all met by the Royal Navy.
  If he is selected not by direct entry but two years earlier, that is while he is still at secondary or grammar school, he can receive a grant towards the cost of his education in the last two years at school which is far more generous than anything provided by any local authority in maintenance grants. I want to emphasise that somehow we must get over to every parent of every able young lad in the country that if a boy is selected for a cadetship in the Royal Navy, no matter how poor the parent is, that parent need have no anxiety.
  It is even true, paradoxically enough, that there are parents whose boys are selected for a cadetship who are better off than the parents of those who are selected for entry into a university. There is no means test and no supplementing of the State award by private

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  means which to the lower and middle-income groups is such a real burden. It has been suggested to me that one of the reasons why middle-class parents are so eager for their boys to have a cadetship in one of the three Services is that it will mean a university education free of a means test for the parents; and the cadetships that we are talking about I regard quite seriously as the equivalent of a university education.
  It also needs emphasising that once a boy gets inside Dartmouth or any of the cadet colleges of the three arms of the Services, poverty or wealth and social origin are things which go by the board. There are no social classes in Dartmouth. Indeed, there is none inside any worthwhile college. Once one is inside them, the public schools of England are a perfect democracy. Last year a boy from a secondary modern school won a place at Dartmouth. I am sure that this boy, and all other boys from State grammar schools who are now in Dartmouth or who have passed through it, would be happy to assure every hon. Member and the general public that everybody there is treated in exactly the same way and that the only thing that matters inside a cadet college is the ability of the cadet and not his social origin.
  Once a boy gets inside the college all the social problems and cleavages disappear. Therefore, the problems that confront the Navy in trying to obtain the best boys in the country and especially the boys from whom it will draw its officers in the future are, firstly, recruiting candidates from the widest field and, secondly, selecting the best possible candidates for cadetship. The disquieting fact is that this year, as last year, as indeed all through the post-war years, practically every officer cadet selected for the Navy has come from an independent school.
  There is little sign of progress in this respect. Very few come from State grammar schools. Indeed, the boy who came from a State grammar school who, I seem to remember, was first or second on the list when I was at the selection board, was unable through physical disability to take a cadetship.
  Despite all that some hon. Members have been urging for a number of years, we have not broken down a barrier that exists. I believe that the class structure of British society is changing only slowly
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  and that our educational system still perpetuates that class system. The rate at which it is melting away is far too slow in my opinion. Every grammar school in the country has a careers master. Every sixth form in the country is a recruiting ground for every worth-while career. The Navy, rightly, has a Public Relations Department doing the work for which the hon. Member for St. Ives has asked. It has liaison officers whose special job it is to lay before the youth of Britain the worth-while careers inside the Royal Navy, and the advantages and opportunities offered by those different careers which the Civil Lord set out clearly and eloquently in his speech this afternoon. Yet I understand that nearly half the local education authorities have refused permission to the Navy to give, talks on naval careers in their schools.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: I am sorry if I gave that impression. I was talking in terms of constituencies. About fifty Members of Parliament represent places where the local education authorities do not co-operate, and out of a total of about 600 Members of Parliament that would be about one-twelfth, not one-half.
  Dr. King: I am grateful for the correction. I was taking the figure which the Civil Lord gave me in our previous debate. I can understand the correction. If, say, three constituencies are served by one local education authority, the picture is not so black as I had imagined.
  At any rate, there are some local education authorities which refuse to allow the liaison officers to visit their schools. I understand that the number is shrinking and that some authorities which previously refused permission now give it. I know from a quarter of a century's experience just how crowded is a school timetable and how impossible it would be if the fifth and sixth forms had to make room in lesson time for dozens and dozens of high-powered salesmen on behalf of all the worthwhile careers which we are seeking to present to the young and able lads in our grammar schools.
  Moreover, I would not ask for military and navy recruiters anything that was not available for any other branch of British life which has a special career to offer to able youths. Just as it is

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  right that able youngsters should compete for worth-while jobs, so it is right that the Navy should enter into competition with other worth-while jobs to win the cream of our youth. However, outside of formal lesson time, in the last year of a secondary modern school it is the job of the employment officer, in consultation with the headmaster and the parents, to lay before all the youngsters in the fourth or fifth forms of that school what careers are available. We must make sure that before them is a picture of the career available in the artificer class and for the young boy entrant into the Navy.
  Similarly, in the fifth and sixth forms of the grammar and comprehensive schools, probably out of school time, one would hope that all local education authorities will ensure that the able young lads in every corner of our country have the fullest knowledge of what openings there are for cadetships in the Royal Navy. The liaison officer should be enabled to enter the school; or at least we should ensure that the careers master is fully equipped with the literature which the Navy can provide. We should also make sure that the school film society can show the excellent films which exist on the careers offered by the Royal Navy. Above all, let us get over to the poorest people in the country the knowledge that we are seeking merit and ability, and that these qualities have nothing to do with social conditions or the wealth of parents.
  Somehow we must break a vicious circle. It is partly because in the past so few grammar school boys have been selected that so few of the abler boys in the grammar schools care to face the challenge and adventure of facing a selection board. On the other hand, I have been told by at least two directors of education that it is because the grammar schools are not sending their ablest lads to compete before the selection boards that so few are selected. Certainly on the occasions when I watched the candidates that was my own impression also.
  For a variety of reasons, there is a tradition of officer service in the public schools, which have provided the bulk of our officers for generation after generation. Somehow we must establish a similar tradition in the State grammar
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  schools. This will take time, and I am glad that the Admiralty is reaching out in the directions that I have so long urged. For example, last year it called together a group of grammar school headmasters and told them roughly what the Civil Lord said today and what I am saying now about careers in the Navy.
  Again I say that every successful candidate, every boy who for the first time wins a place from a State grammar school to Dartmouth, is the best publicity the Royal Navy can have. It has been the experience of selectors that when one boy has broken through, and later goes back to his old school as an old boy wearing with pride his cadet uniform, this encourages other youngsters to enter the contest for selection.
  It is also for the heads of the grammar and comprehensive schools, as well as for the local authorities, to do some reaching out. In my opinion, Britain must become in reality a country in which a boy in a village primary school, or a young boy entrant into the Navy on the lower deck—I hope my single technical term in this speech is correct —may know that, if he deserves it, he can become an admiral. In many respects I am dissatisfied by the slow rate of progress we are making along the road of equality of opportunity, but I welcome every step which the Admiralty and educationists can take towards achieving this goal because it is good for the Navy that it should recruit the best.
  Like most hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, I am a pacifist. I want to see the end of all the navies in the world and the end of all armed forces, ours and everybody elses. I believe that the only hope of the world is in controlled disarmament, in multilateral disarmament, in the gradual whittling away of the armed forces of the world—our few submarines and Russia's many submarines, our armed forces and those of every other country in the world. That is the goal at which we are aiming, but we must live in the world as it is. We must be prepared in the meanwhile to defend ourselves, and in that defence the Navy has an important part to play.
  I was glad to note in the tone of the speech made by the Civil Lord, and in the tone of the speeches made from both sides of the Committee, an end of the

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  inferiority complex which seemed to have got into the Navy in past years as compared with the other two Services. I know that the officers and men of the Navy were conscious of the fact that somehow they did not have the confidence and the affection and that pride of place in the hearts and minds of the House of Commons which they used to have. I am glad to see that change. In the Navy, as in the Army and the R.A.F., we want to widen the field for recruitment of officers. Of the three Services the Royal Air Force has been far more successful than the other two. If the Navy is bottom of any list, it is the one which shows the social range of its selection of young entrants for cadetship. This can be proved by comparison with the R.A.F. and Army schemes I hope that some day the Royal Navy will catch up.
  Tonight my special appeal is to headmasters of State grammar schools, to local authorities and to parents in this country to allow keen young lads of whatever social class to have a go at the selection boards, knowing that they will get a fair deal. Then they will have a most exhilarating experience and if they prove worthy and are successful they may ultimately secure an admiral's flag.
  8.1 p.m.
  Commander Anthony Courtney: On this, the first occasion on which I have spoken on the Navy Estimates, it is a great pleasure to be able to follow the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Dr. King) because, despite his confession of pacifism, we have many views in common. I believe our views regarding the officer entry into the Royal Navy, in so far as they concern the provision of the best type and proper quantity of young officers, are common to right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the Committee. Perhaps we differ slightly on the means by which we would attain that desirable objective.
  I wish to enlarge on the remarks of the hon. Member for Itchen and to bring to the attention of my hon. Friend the Civil Lord the fact that this first shortfall in the officer entry into the Royal Navy—I believe the first in the whole of our naval history—coincides with a most remarkable increase of enthusiasm for sailing by young people in this country, both men and women. It is a remark-
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  able coincidence that at a time when small boat sailing is more popular than ever before, when I and other hon. Members are being bombarded by constituents who wish to sail small boats on newly opened reservoirs, etc., we should be unable to get the right quantity or quality of entry into the Royal Naval College at Dartmouth.
  I believe that that has a specific relationship to the age entry at 18. While I was still serving in the Royal Navy the age was altered—for political reasons, if I may say so—from the earlier age of 13 which had served this country so well, as was evidenced by the results achieved in two world wars. I suggest that an immediate return to an earlier age is indicated, but I do not wish to enlarge on that subject because to do so would take a longer time than would be acceptable to the patience of hon. Members. I advocate a return to an earlier age for many reasons—of most of which hon. Members will be aware— as the best possible solution for this problem.
  For many generations it has been suggested that a naval flavour, whether merchant or Royal Navy is immaterial in this context, to a young man's education is wholly beneficial. I am aware, as all hon. Members will be, that the reputation enjoyed by the Royal Naval College at Dartmouth, the Nautical Colleges at Pangbourne, Worcester and Conway, in my day and in the time of others, stands very high indeed in the general level of education of young men. I believe it not beyond the wit of man— my hon. Friend may be forced to study this question by the figures of entries into the Navy as they progress next year and the year after—to devise some coordination of those scholastic establishments of a naval flavour with an age drop, perhaps to 11, in order to fulfil the purpose which we all have in mind. I throw out that idea for further development as the opportunity may offer.
  I cannot consider these Navy Estimates in isolation. Although my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) felt that he could not discuss the question of broader strategy for lack of information, I feel that I must rush in where more senior officers have feared to tread. I wish to make a few points

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  on the Navy's part in fulfilling the objects of this vital service, the prevention of war and the successful survival of this country in the event of a limited war. I say "limited" advisedly because, as has been stressed by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, the prospects of the Navy's rôle in a total nuclear war are indeed dim and need not be seriously considered by the Committee.
  In a general defence policy, in which the Navy's contribution is very important, there are two main criteria, what we can afford and the strength and reliability of the alliances with which alone we can at present guarantee our security. As a student of history, it seems strange to me that N.A.T.O., S.E.A.T.O., CENTO and other organisations are discussed quite often by hon. Members as though they were something peculiar to this day and age. Surely they are simply part of the alliances, formerly called coalitions and having other names, which enabled us to fight wars successfully for many hundreds of years of our history. I feel that N.A.T.O., which I shall mention particularly later in my speech, must be considered in that way. as one of our traditional alliances and not as something peculiar to this day and age.
  I believe that in our defence policy we must be flexible. We must be prepared to shift the emphasis not only between deterrent and conventional weapons but within each Department as political conditions change and as weapons develop. In the context of knowledge given to hon. Members, I believe one can agree that a reasonable balance has been struck by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence between our deterrent and our conventional forces. I welcome the shift of emphasis to the latter which is revealed in this year's Defence White Paper. I welcome the increased emphasis on the Navy as a participant in the deterrent. The success of our defence is, in the first place, in the provision of nuclear fire-power to our carriers. Although that has not been explicitly stated, from the facts given to us I believe that no other conclusion can be reached.
  It is known that certain carrier-borne aircraft are capable of carrying nuclear weapons and, with the mention of this fact in the White Paper, one can only
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  reach the conclusion that that nuclear fire-power has now been provided. The second—this is not altogether clear—is the probable arrival among our defence forces of the sea-borne deterrent in the form of the Polaris submarine. I am sorry if my pronunciation of "Polaris" differs slightly from that of many hon. Gentlemen, but I was always taught at Dartmouth that Polaris was the North Star. The third emphasis which has been shifted in this year's White Paper is very welcome to a naval officer, a return to the historic rôle of the Navy in transporting fighting ability as quickly and as efficiently as possible to all parts of the world as part of the deterrent known colloquially as its fire-brigade duties. I believe, nevertheless, that in all these welcome shifts of emphasis my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence has rather lost the sense of proportion within the allocation of money for conventional weapons.
  I was particularly struck by a speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) when he said what a danger there was in trying to be effective everywhere and therefore successful nowhere. It is my opinion, such as it is worth, that the Government over many years have yielded to the blandishments of some of our powerful allies in departing from one of the ancient principles of British strategy by trying to be a continental power and remaining at the same time a maritime power. The ground given away in 1954 has not yet been regained.
  I as a sailor welcome the doubts expressed in the Defence White Paper about the possibility of yet another shift of land and sea forces from the Continent of Europe. Surely interdependence between allies in N.A.T.O. must not mean ditching the experience of centuries and incurring grave national risk to ourselves. Surely, in concluding treaties of alliance and adjusting them to changed diplomatic and weapon conditions, we should take this factor into consideration.
  Before I proceed to the main section of my argument in this respect, I wish to mention three domestic matters in connection with the Navy Estimates. In the first place, I think it disquieting—I believe this figure to be correct—that 38 per cent. only of the Vote A strength of

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  the Royal Navy is at present holding appointments on board seagoing ships or craft. There is little doubt that that figure was considerably higher before the war. I have had personal experience of this before the war. It reflects dissociation of many officers and men from the element on which they have made their lives. It is wholly wrong to my mind that that figure of 38 per cent. should be so low.
  In this context, the question of the Royal Naval Barracks at Chatham has been mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East. I support him wholly in this. In my view, it is a thoroughly retrograde step. I would not suggest that the naval barracks should be blown up, for I know it too well, but it should be converted for another use. Another naval barracks left means more men on shore. The time will surely come when some latter-day Jackie Fisher will have to see, that the Navy goes to sea and stays at sea performing its proper rôle. It is no accident that the reputation of the Royal Navy depends on seamanship and finding at sea its proper element. I deprecate the increasing tendency which has been mentioned by many hon. Members for naval officers and men to go ashore and stay ashore.
  I have dealt with the short-fall of young officers, and I believe this is all part of the same picture, but I add another thought here. Will my hon. Friend pay a little consideration to the shabby way—and I use the word advisedly—in which certain senior officers of all services, particularly in this case the Navy, have been treated? That has reacted on young men endeavouring to enter the Royal Naval College at Dartmouth. Headmasters and parents have an undoubted influence in this respect. Many of them have experienced this. They see the parsimony of the authorities in allocating upto-date pensions to those senior officers, many of whom are in rather distressing circumstances.
  Finally in my domestic points, I wish to put one which is small, but which irritates me more than anything. I ask my hon. Friend why it should be that in Vote 5 the sum of some £50,000 is allocated in respect of three shore naval training establishments for overtime.
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  That this word should occur rings false to me. It seems completely against the spirit of the Navy service as such. I could understand it in an establishment such as the Admiralty, which after all is a civil establishment subject to civil rules and regulations. It is right and proper there, but not in a naval establishment. I have never known a naval officer or rating who knew the meaning of the word "overtime". I mention this only as a small matter of personal irritation. Perhaps my hon. Friend may give me a reply on it.
  The major question I wish to raise on this occasion is one which was put well by the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) in the defence debate. How can one seek to organise defence and ignore weapons which exist? The White Paper on Defence virtually ignores the existence of the 500 Russian submarines which have been mentioned by at least three hon. Members in this debate. I believe that single menace to our security is deserving very much greater attention than it is getting. It is an astonishing thing to me that the White Paper did not include a single reference to anti-submarine warfare as such. In the speech of the Minister of Defence one reference was made to the possibility of the use of our submarines in an antisubmarine rôle.
  In the present state of development of nuclear submarines, I believe them to be the noisiest things, either on or under the water. In that capacity I hardly think they would be very effective for that particular rôle. In any case, we shall not have them for years to come.
  The right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger), in his speech in the defence debate, mentioned the existence of 500 Soviet submarines. He did not ask himself what they were intended for. He simply posed the question: what are we going to do about them? My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Worthing (Sir O. Prior-Palmer) mentioned them as well. He was bold enough to express the opinion that he did not think they were aimed at our Atlantic communications.
  As a student of Russian naval history, it has been my interest for many years to follow the development of the Soviet naval forces from the Revolution onwards, among them more particularly

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  submarines. From the somewhat meagre sources available, I have followed the development of the earlier submarines inherited from Czarist times, through the Maliutki small coastal submarine, through the Shchuka and Lin, to the K-class ocean submarines which formed the base of the Soviet Navy during the Second World War. I know a little of the Type 21 U-boat which was taken over by the Soviet Union in quantity at the end of the war. It was the last word in U-boat development at that time, and no doubt it was the model and prototype of the Type W and Type Z ocean-going submarines which form the basis of the Soviet submarine effort today.
  Only one hon. Member, my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard), mentioned mining. It is inconceivable that in discussing Navy Estimates—indeed, in mentioning the main threat which faces us, as I believe it, in these 500 submarines—that no mention has been made of the traditional use which Russians and Soviets have made of their warships for laying mines in other people's waters. I wonder whether sufficient attention has been paid by my hon. Friend to that side of the matter, and how he considers the mining of our coasts could be opposed in case of need.
  That apart, from my study of these ships I am confident that the main object of this great force can be nothing less than the cutting of the Atlantic communications which join the New World with the Old. There was a time when Soviet submarines could rightly be described as defensive because of their radius of action, their armaments and their use. That changed many years ago, and we now hear stories of oceangoing submarines of unknown nationality, suspected to be Russian, off many of the coasts of the world. Unknown submarines have been reported off the American coast, the South American coast, and further out in the Pacific.
  Two hon. Members mentioned the North Atlantic Treaty forces which we have to oppose this submarine effort in time of limited war. I suggest that here we must take into consideration certain political factors which could influence the course of such a war, and in particular affect—and this has been touched on by one or two hon. Members—the
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  strength and reliability of the naval forces on which we depend to defend those Atlantic communications. I suggest that the nuclear stalemate, if it has arrived, has heralded an era of nuclear blackmail. The time has come—and we have seen one example of this already —when "rocketry", to use a modern expression, is used as an instrument of the cold war. We all know what happened in that respect in Mr. Bulganin's letter at the time of Suez.
  It is possible to envisage a situation of mounting political tension. It is conceivable that at some stage of that development the Soviet Union might find it politically necessary to declare a blockade of the British Isles. Blockade is an old-fashioned word, but it is a real thing. It was the instrument of British sea power over many centuries, and I suggest to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen that the day might come when that weapon could be used against us, for surely, as we all know, we are by far the most vulnerable of all the N.A.T.O. Powers to the cutting of our sea communications with the rest of the world.
  We have been given the figure of about 450 anti-submarine escorts to deal with a situation such as that. This point has not yet been made in the debate. I wonder whether hon. Members realise that only one in six of those antisubmarine escorts are supplied by the Royal Navy? The others are supplied by the French, 200 by the Americans, by the Canadians, the Portuguese, the Danes and the Norwegians, and the last two named countries have authority, in certain conditions of which I am not aware although I know they exist, to detach those anti-submarine vessels for service elsewhere.
  Let us assume in this context that the development of a Russian type of Polaris submarine has been successful— and there are American sources which state that that is so, but whether it is I have no knowledge. I suggest that such a political situation could be attended by the appearance off the east coast of North America of submarines which might or might not carry this weapon. In those circumstances, is it conceivable that those 200 American, and 75 or 80, or whatever the number is, Canadian anti-submarine craft would not be forced, by the pressure of American and Canadian public opinion, to chase those assumed Russian nuclear submarines?

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  I suggest that the figure of one in six escorts in the North Atlantic, which were admitted three years ago by the two commanders-in-chief concerned to be totally inadequate for the purposes for which they were allotted, is a risk which this country should not run any longer.
  The morale of the Merchant Navy is a very peculiar thing. The hon. Member for Itchen, with his experience of the Merchant Navy, will appreciate what a close thing the morale of the Merchant Navy was at certain times during the last war, after P.Q. 17 in North Russia, and those 1,500 men at the Russian hospital. Only the magnificent reputation of the Royal Navy kept morale in the Merchant Navy going.
  It is a kind of credit structure with a basis of faith in a Service, and the credit piles up. Thank goodness the structure has not yet crumpled in any war in which we have been engaged. I believe that at this moment in the North Atlantic some sort of credit structure of that kind has been built up, by a nucleus of Royal Naval units under the Commander-in-Chief, East Atlantic, supporting this credit edifice of antisubmarine craft belonging to six or seven nations which depends ultimately on the nucleus provided by the Royal Navy of one in six. It is not fair to the N.A.T.O. alliance to allow such a situation to continue. I do not believe that 2 per cent. of the gross national product is sufficient to guarantee the safety of those sea communications without which we cannot survive for more than three months without starving.
  I ask my hon. Friend to tell his noble Friend and his right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence that the Royal Navy, in receiving 2 per cent. of the gross national product or one-quarter of the total allocation for defence, is in the circumstances of today taking a calculated risk which has become mathematical lunacy. This very serious problem should be considered by my hon. Friend.
  8.30 p.m.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: I am very glad indeed to have been called after the hon. and gallant Member for Harrow, East (Commander Courtney), because I know how greatly interested he has been in Russian affairs. I be-
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  lieve that he had the unique distinction of being our Naval Attaché in Moscow during various critical times in the last war. I am sure that we are all interested in what he has to say with his professional knowledge about the problem of Russian submarines.
  This is the most important question in the debate. The very large sum of over £397 million is largely based on the assumption that we have to go to war with the Soviet Union. We are being told that the real problem is that we have to defend ourselves against the Russian submarines.
  The Civil Lord spoke about the Soviet submarines in the Mediterranean as if they had no right to be there. The time has come when we can no longer assume that the Mediterranean just belows to us. We know about the American Sixth Fleet and we know about our fleet.
  If the Mediterranean is the scene of great naval activity on the part of N.A.T.O. forces, if we have in the Mediterranean aircraft carriers with aircraft which can deliver on Russian cities what is politely called the nuclear deterrent— in other words, the atomic or the H-bomb-—and if those aircraft carriers are to be sailing within distance of the Russian coast, it is quite natural if the Russians think in terms of defence and say that they should have the submarines to sink them.
  The Russians are like the hon. Gentleman, they are not pacifists. I am a pacifist. I object to this very large expenditure of money, both by Russians and by the Western Powers. I am more of an extremist than Mr. Khrushchev.
  I want to examine the question of Russian submarines in the light of what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said. He has said that the objective of the 500 Russian submarines is to blockade this island by cutting our communications in the North Atlantic. He mentioned the word "blockade". He seemed to think that it was a very wicked thing for the Russians to blockade this country. He knows from his knowledge of Russian naval history that, although the Russians have never blockaded this country, we have blockaded Russia.
  Commander Courtney: I have not suggested that the Russians have

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  blockaded this country. The one precedent is the Russian blockade of Finland in December. 1939.
  Mr. Hughes: I am dealing with this country. I will come round to Finland later, if necessary. I want to come to our blockade of Russia. I remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman that after the Russian Revolution this party—Mr. Ernest Bevin, myself and others—was protesting very vigorously because we blockaded Russia and even refused to let in any kind of medicines at all.
  Commander Courtney: I believe it to be correct that we never declared a blockade of Russia after the "intervention" to which I know the hon. Gentleman is referring. "Blockade" is a legal term. It was not invoked on that occasion.
  Mr. Hughes: It was none the less a blockade for our not declaring it to be a "blockade". We worked it. It was not de jure, to come to lawyer's terms, it was de facto. We know that British, French and American forces blockaded the Soviet Union. If we are talking in terms of original sin between nations, then the pot has no need to call the kettle black.
  I have not the intimate knowledge of naval warfare of the hon. and gallant Member, but I had an interesting experience this time last year of visiting the Russian naval college at Leningrad—the Frunze Naval College—on the banks of the Neva, in the task that I had of following the Prime Minister around the Soviet Union. I stood for half-an-hour in the cold waiting for the Prime Minister to arrive and watching the Russian sailors, lined up as an armed guard, waiting to receive the Prime Minister. They sang the Russian national anthem and played "God Save the Queen" and then did the usual formalities. As I looked at these Russian sailors and this guard, they looked to me exactly like a similar guard at Dartmouth, Chatham or Plymouth. They were sailors lined up in order to present a naval occasion for the Prime Minister.
  When the Prime Minister arrived, we went round the naval school with Admiral Bogdenko, and the Prime Minister delivered a very interesting speech. This is what he said:
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  "For us Islanders the Royal Navy is a sacred and cherished tradition."—
  Every one of those Russian sailors would have said the same—
  "The friendship between the British and Russian fleets is of long-standing. The long record of co-operation between the British and Russian Navies was cemented during the last war. I bring greetings to you from the British people and from one Service to another."
  That was the Prime Minister to Admiral Bogdenko, and now we know that those greetings are being followed up today by another greeting—the fact that we are increasing our Defence Estimates by over £160 million and that our own Navy Estimates are, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis) said, the largest in peace time in history.
  I wonder why it is necessary. If the relationships are so cordial between the Prime Minister and Admiral Bogdenko, why are we proceeding as if the Prime Minister had never been to Russia? According to one hon. Member, we have to go on till 1970 presenting bigger and bigger Navy Estimates.
  I followed the Prime Minister and Admiral Bogdenko through the corridors and rooms of the naval college. I was not near enough to hear the conversation, but I made it up myself. I thought that it would be something like this:
  THE PRIME MINISTER: "YOU know our Admiralty is awfully worried about your new submarines! "
  ADMIRAL BOGDENKO: "There is no need to worry. They are purely for defensive purposes."
  THE PRIME MINISTER: "Defence against who and what?"
  THE ADMIRAL: "You know what you've said several times in the House of Commons, 'We cannot risk lowering our guard'."
  THE PRIME MINISTER: "But we have no aggressive intentions. We have no intention of attacking the U.S.S.R."
  THE ADMIRAL: "We have no aggressive intentions, either, Mr. Prime Minister. We have no intention of attacking Britain."
  THE PRIME MINISTER: "But aren't submarines designed purely for offensive purposes?"
  THE ADMIRAL: "You have some, Sir."
  THE PRIME MINISTER: "Wouldn't it be a good thing to ease international tension if you scrapped some of your submarines? You've read my speeches on Russia."
  THE ADMIRAL: "Wouldn't it be a good thing to ease world tension if you scrapped some of your aircraft carriers, Sir? You've read Comrade Khrushchev's speeches."

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  THE PRIME MINISTER: "Of course I have, but aircraft carriers are not meant for aggression."
  THE ADMIRAL: "When we suspended our nuclear tests, Sir, did you stop yours?"
  THE PRIME MINISTER: "I think that we'd better not go into that now, Admiral. We don't believe in unilateral action. Perhaps we're getting into too deep waters, Admiral."
  THE ADMIRAL: "Yes, Sir, let's talk about how we: were comrades together in the last war."
  So the process will go on. The Russian admirals will present bigger estimates to their Government, while heavier Navy Estimates are presented to this Committee. The arms race will continue unless the Prime Minister and Mr. Khrushchev and the Western Powers get down to the serious business of total disarmament in four years. I should be delighted to have total disarmament in four years, because I have sat through innumerable Navy Estimate debates, and it would mean that I should not have to sit through another ten years of them.
  The Admiralty asks for £397 million. I am surprised that it does not ask for more, because there is no opposition here. It is an agreed thing that we give the Admiralty exactly what it asks for. We shall do so this time. There will be no Division at the end of this debate. If I were to force a Division—which I cannot, because I am only one, and cannot find another teller—it might be said, "You will be expelled from the Labour Party". The fact is that the Labour Party is as enthusiastic about the Navy Estimates—at least for practical purposes—as is the Conservative Party. If I were at the Admiralty I would say, "Boys, there is no need to worry—put in for another £10 million or £15 million next year; there will be no real political opposition to it in the House of Commons."
  I therefore think that we are reducing control of Service expenditure to very much of a farce, and destroying Parliamentary government. If the Opposition do not oppose, and oppose as strongly as the procedure allows, they are not doing their job. Instead of our being here this evening I think that it would be better to have a Standing Committee to study all the different Service Estimates put before it. Let hon. and hon. and gallant Members of naval experience sit on a permanent committee to study Navy Estimates in detail before
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  we ourselves consider them. I would advocate such a committee for each of the Services. We would then have some scrutiny and control of public expenditure.
  What has happened today? The most damaging criticisms have come, not from me but from the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Croydon, North - East (Vice - Admiral Hughes Hallett), who has been a distinguished admiral. He told us about the waste in the "Eagle", which, he said, was being refitted at enormous cost. That vessel cost £18 million originally, and there is another aircraft carrier costing £20 million. If we had the kind of committee I advocate we would have all the hon. and gallant Gentlemen opposite using their experience to reduce public expenditure.
  An aircraft carrier costs between £18 million and £20 million, which is an enormous sum. [Interruption.] I think I hear an hon. Member say that it costs more than that. In my constituency recently I went down a coal mine with the Minister of Power. It is one of the most modern coal mines not only in this country but in Europe. We asked what the cost was, and we were told apologetically that it was £10 million. I said, "You need not apologise. Your coal mine will be here for twenty or thirty years. But soon I shall be asked to approve estimates for an aircraft carrier costing between £18 million and £20 million which is likely to be obsolete in two or three years' time." We are spending an enormous amount of money and we are putting into obsolete Services a large amount of the national activity and energy which should be devoted to industrial and social reconstruction.
  All these aircraft carriers and large battleships need to have an industrial potential behind them. A large section of the engineering population on Clyde-bank and in Glasgow, as well as on the Tyne and in Belfast, is engaged on the construction of aircraft carriers and other naval craft. From the point of view of the national economy and of building up industry to compete with potential competitors for survival, this is economic waste.
  During the recent General Election hon. Members on both sides of the Committee received circulars from the Navy

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  League. The League was very optimistic; it sent me a circular. I wrote a very polite letter back to the secretary of the Navy League saying, "Dear Sir, The Navy League is as obsolete as the Jacobites. I would spend the money that is now being spent on the Navy on modernising the Mercantile Marine, on building new harbours along the coast and generally on ships which will not be obsolete in ten years' time." I heard no more from the Navy League after that.
  The Navy as hon. Members have known it in their experience is obsolete, and we have to turn our ideas to new forms of strategy. A large amount of this £397 million is completely unjustifiable when we consider whether the nation is getting its money's worth. It may be said that we need nuclear submarines which will fire the new kinds of atomic weapons. I wonder whether those hon. Members who have made these suggestions realise what the cost will be. My hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith, North (Mr. Tomney), who is a technician and an engineer, has estimated that one of these new nuclear-propelled submarines is likely to cost as much as £30 million. I wonder how many of those we can afford. I suppose if we are to have nuclear submarines we shall need a good many of them.
  Presumably the idea is to have nuclear-powered submarines which will lie at the bottom of the sea, somewhere around the coast of Russia, and at the appropriate moment send H-bombs over the industrial cities of the Soviet Union. Russia is a vast territory. How many of these submarines will we have to have at the bottom of the sea with Polaris equipment and how many will be necessary to counteract the Russian submarines which, presumably, will be off the north coast of Scotland, or anywhere in the Atlantic?
  We have reached the stage at which the whole of the naval part of nuclear strategy has to be studied to see whether it is realistic. I submit that it is not. It is all very well for hon. Members to argue, as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey), that the Thor bases are practically useless because they are not mobile. I do not know how far we can
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  alter that by making them mobile and putting them on ships. The country will still be the base from which the submarine will be sent and, presumably, if we and the Russians exchange rockets, just as we will attempt to destroy Leningrad and the Neva dockyards with our rockets, so the Russians will be doing the same to Plymouth, Glasgow and the other bases.
  I do not see any way out of the nuclear dilemma by abandoning bases on land and having them on aircraft carriers or naval ships of any kind. We will not escape the consequences of atomic war that way. The only rational argument is the pacifist argument. I do not command much support in the House of Commons, but I believe that a great deal of public opinion is appreciating the complete futility of all the various strategies being elaborated for the fighting of another war. The only hope for the country is in accepting the arguments of the four-year plan on disarmament put to the United Nations by Mr. Khrushchev. If we move in that direction, as the hon. and gallant Member for Harrow, East suggested, we will be going the right way to end the terror, which hangs over all intelligent men and women, of the menace to humanity of the possibilities of the total destruction of civilisation.
  I do not wish to embarrass him in any way, but I approve of the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East. He quoted the results of a Gallup poll quoted in today's Scotsman. That poll shows that, regardless of the political party which they support, most British people approve increased expenditure on things like roads and education, but disapprove of increased expenditure on defence. People were asked whether they approved or disapproved of the Government's attitude to increased expenditure.
  Most people said the common-sense thing, and approved these priorities: first, roads—I am not sure that I agree with that—secondly, education; thirdly, health; fourthly, National Insurance; lastly, defence. I am not attempting to score a party point, because the analysis shows that in each of the spheres of expenditure the majority of Conservatives agree with the majority of Socialists. There is a body of public

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  opinion in this country which challenges the idea that to get security one must have the H-bomb, politely called the nuclear deterrent, and that we must spend £1,600 million every year in order to have this strategy.
  I do not think that we should look for security in this way at all. Security can come only by total disarmament and by realising that the whole of the strategical theories are "phoney" and that the time has come when total disarmament is the road to security and the preservation of our civilisation.
  8.56 p.m.
  Commander J. S. Kerans: I will try not to be controversial about the vast sum of money which is to be spent, but it seems to me that the size of our future fleet is very small. It is not clear to me what one should say to a parent who asks, "What is the future of my son in the Navy 25 years hence?". That will not be an easy question to answer, but I would say— this is purely my own viewpoint—that the Navy provides a very good and first-class training. It teaches leadership, tact and responsibility at a very early age. Under the present structure, there is a very good chance of a person finishing up with a degree or a trade on which he can fall back in civilian life. That is something which I missed.
  There is no doubt that pay and pensions are now in line with those of industry, and I think that one can say that they are very good indeed. I think that the career structure is sound in the long term. No doubt there is a certain amount of ironing out in certain classes which are not quite in line with the other two Services, but the Navy provides youngsters with the opportunity to see the world and teaches them to mix. Nowadays, with N.A.T.O., S.E.A.T.O., and CENTO exercises, they meet a vast number of people It broadens a man's mind and educates him, and this stands him in good stead when he returns to this country.
  I think I can safely say that the Navy is the best club in the world, because there is a future in it.
  Mr. John Rankin: Look what it costs.
  Commander Kerans: That leads me to a small point on which I feel very
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  strongly. The Navy could do with a good deal more publicity. Publicity has been very much improved lately, but there is still much leeway to be made up. The advertisements in the newspapers are very much better than they used to be. Those in certain weekend newspapers really raise one's eyebrows, but the Navy is still inclined to be the Silent Service when it comes to what the public knows of what the Navy is doing. In certain instances, families are taken to sea on exercises for the day. That is a beginning, and it shows families what the husbands are doing and the conditions in which they live. That is one way of advertising the Navy. I should like to see more of this and more visits to ports, not only in this country but abroad. I was glad to see in the Appendix of the Cmd. Paper the vast number of places to which the Navy gets in the course of the year. A film which is now showing is first class in that respect and gives a fillip to the Navy.
  I should like the Admiralty to produce some sort of pamphlet showing in clear and concise terms, as far as possible, the future rôle of the Navy, with the career structures for officers and ratings clearly set out in one volume. At the moment, it is difficult to obtain the different career structures for the various branches of the Navy. It is not easy to obtain them all correlated in one handy volume.
  In addition, I have found it very difficult to know the dispositions of the Navy at any one particular moment. One can discover a good deal through, for example, the local Portsmouth naval papers and, perhaps, through the Navy League Magazine, but such information is generally out of date. Why cannot we have a clear-cut idea about where ships are stationed? This information might be given in an Appendix to the Command Paper. Is it necessary that we should have all this secrecy about where our ships are serving? For instance, only when we had the Mauritius cyclone did we discover that the "Gambia" was in that area.
  I now come to the matter of liaison with the schools, which hon. Members opposite have clearly brought out. It is a great pity that there are so many areas of the country, of which my constituency is one, which do not allow the naval liaison officer entry into the local schools.

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  I now make one further plea, and that is for the Sea Cadet Corps, a thriving organisation throughout the country. I am president of the unit at Welwyn Garden City. I suggest that the Admiralty could give more help to these youngsters in the way of equipment and facilities generally. I know that some of them get to sea with the fleet, but, generally, that is by private arrangement. Not all of them go into the Navy. A good many go into the Merchant Navy. At a very young age, they get a fair degree of discipline, they are kept off the streets and at least they are occupied in the evenings. They get a tremendous amount of civilian support financially, but this varies, of course, from area to area. In many areas, the Admiralty might be able to help in this respect.
  In passing, I should like to mention the Royal Naval associations which exist up and down the country. They nearly all comprise old-timers, but in many areas they have no club facilities or place in which to congregate other than the back room of a "pub" or something of that nature. Perhaps more help could be given publicly to accommodate these people, who are a very useful adjunct, certainly in bringing forward the Navy to the eyes of youth and in acting as a guide to the future.
  One branch of the Navy which so far has not been mentioned is the Royal Corps of Naval Constructors. I wonder whether the entry of the Corps should not be brought in line with the engineering and electrical branches. In the past, it has always been rather a Corps apart. The fleet sees little of its members, although a number are appointed to Commanders-in-Chief at home and abroad. It might merit consideration that these people, who play a great part in the design of our ships in the Royal Navy, should work step by step in line with the engineering and electrical branches.
  I notice from the Explanatory Statement that the numbers of the W.R.N.S. are much the same, but I am wondering whether their service cannot be extended East of Suez to other parts of the world. They perform a fine job but have a high degree of wastage through marriage. I married one myself.
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  The Royal Marines have a tremendous future in their dual rôle in the Navy to come. In the Commando carrier, they are a highly trained force and worth their weight in gold. They carry out a diversity of tasks which very few other forces have to do. Gone is the day when the Royal Marines were the next messdeck for the wardroom. They are now a force on their own and complementary to the Navy.
  I think the Navy has a great future. I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Commander Courtney) that we need more anti-submarine vessels and more submarines, but what is hard to explain to the public is the tremendous run-down there has been in the Navy, not only in the active fleet but in the reserve fleet. We are continually picking up our papers and reading of a cruiser going to a foreign country or setting forth on her last voyage to Malta to the scrapheap. It brings tears to my eyes, but I suppose it is inevitable in the transition period through which the Navy is now going. However, I say the Navy will weather that storm and that the Navy has a rôle to play in the future. Whether in the nuclear age or in the ordinary cold war, it will have its task to do.
  I would quote from a letter from a friend of mine in the paper recently. He has retired now. He was talking about the Agadir disaster, and he said:
  "Assistance to stricken areas was regarded as part of the Royal Navy's normal duties in the days when it was fully represented throughout the world."
  I say we can still carry out these tasks. We are, after all, under the N.A.T.O. umbrella.
  Finally, I would say that morale in the Navy is higher than it has ever been, and I think the men and women of this country contribute adequately to the very high standard which the Navy requires and maintains.
  9.7 p.m.
  Mr. F. H. Hayman: I would refer to one or two of the comments which the hon. and gallant Member for The Hartlepools (Commander Kerans) has just made. First, he said that there was a career for boys in the Navy. I am bound to say that my experience with the Admiralty, about boys in the Navy, is not

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  a very happy one. Although I should very much like to encourage boys to enter the Navy, because it is a very fine profession, and it is very good for boys who want it, the boys are admitted at such a young age, before they reach years of discretion, and they join without realising just what they are letting themselves in for.
  They are thinking of and believing all the glamorous stories that have been told of the past. They enter full of vigour and hope. They do not at that age realise that much of their work will be humdrum, that they will be under very firm discipline in an age when teenagers are notoriously finding discipline difficult —and, indeed, all of us, of all ages in society; and all to the good, but I am quite sure that self-discipline is far better than imposed discipline. Boys find themselves in the Navy at 16 and 17, and engaged for several years, and then when they want to get out of it while they still have a chance to prepare for another avocation, the First Lord of the Admiralty says, "Oh, no, you signed on at 15 and here you stay for the period for which you signed"—5 or 6 or 7 years, whatever it may be. I think that that is altogether wrong, and I appeal to the Civil Lord to give further thought to that.
  I do not object to the increased pensions which have been announced for all the forces, but I think they are very generous, and I hope that the hon. and gallant Member for The Hartlepools, and his hon. Friends will be equally generous to the railwaymen who have now been proved independently to be worth far better financial regards than they are getting.
  The hon. and gallant Gentleman also referred to the Royal Marines. I am second to none in my admiration for the marines, but mention of them brought to my mind the fact that they are now training in the Dartmoor National Park. I am not always happy that the Armed Forces, including the Royal Marines, which use Dartmoor confine themselves to the areas to which they are really restricted, and I give notice to the Minister that if I hear of any trespassing outside that part of the Dartmoor National Park which has been allocated to them, I shall have something to say about it.
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  As I have listened to the debate, my mind has gone back to the period of the First World War, and I have been wondering which nations will be our Allies and which our enemies if ever another war should come. This is a point which we must all bear in mind. It is now late in the debate, and I need not particularise, but those of us who lived through 1915 will remember who were our Allies and who our enemies at Gallipoli. Turkey was our enemy in the First World War and our ally in the Second World War. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] She was, in fact, our ally, but remained neutral. Where will she be in another world war, although now a member of N.A.T.O.?
  I mention these things only because I feel that none of us can be sure what will happen in another year or two. Many of us were shocked this afternoon by the light way in which the Foreign Secretary treated the question of Spain.
  The Chairman: Order. I am afraid that the hon. Member is going rather far from the subject of the debate.
  Mr. Hayman: I am sorry, Sir Gordon, but it seems to me that these Navy Estimates involve the question who may be our enemies and who our Allies in a new war, which I hope will never come. Indeed, all of us must prepare for total disarmament, and I think that, on reflection, the hon. and gallant Member for The Hartlepools will not be quite so sure that the Navy is likely to be a secure career for young men for ever and ever. We all pray Chat total disarmament will come within a measurable time, because otherwise the world is doomed to destruction.
  There is one other point which I should like to raise, and I hope that here I shall be in order. In the Plymouth newspaper the Western Morning News, this morning, there appeared a photograph of a United States Air Force aeroplane on the Royal Navy air base at Culdrose in Cornwall. I should like to know whether United States planes are based at Culdrose, or, if not, whether they are based at some other aerodrome in Cornwall, such as St. Mawgam. The photograph also shows an air compressor and some pneumatic drills which were the gifts of Messrs. Holman Bros. Ltd., mining engineers, of Camborne, for the relief work in Agadir, but, apparently, in spite of all the money which we

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  voted in the Defence Estimates this year, there does not appear to be an aeroplane in any of Her Majesty's forces which is capable of taking these gifts and medical supplies to Agadir. That seems to me to be a most extraordinary situation, and I hope that we shall have some comment on it from the Minister at the close of the debate.
  9.15 p.m.
  Mr. Stanley McMaster: I should like to speak in support of the Vote. The sums involved are very large and perhaps it is difficult for hon. Members to comprehend their full meaning. The issues involved in the spending of the money are also fundamental and of vital importance to the well-being of the country.
  We have heard tonight a plea for more small ships, among others from my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett). He stressed the vulnerability of capital ships to air attack, but I should like to point out that armed as our ships are with sea-to-air missiles, like the Sea Cats and Sea Slugs, and planes carrying air-to-air missiles, it is exceedingly difficult for enemy planes to bomb our fleet. The fleet itself is a far better means of mounting the nuclear deterrent than having the land-based inter-continental or intermediate ballistic missiles which we are at present developing, such as Blue Streak.
  This is also a far better way of defending the country. Our Navy, consisting of ships both small and large and able to sail over all the seas, can carry the deterrent and can keep it protected from enemy attack. It can provide the means of avoiding the destruction of our weapons by enemy action and in addition provide a means of housing the deterrent which would be more in the interest of people living in the country than having that deterrent on a fixed site on land.
  We need to plan very much further ahead than appears from the Navy Estimates and the Memorandum. Here I differ from the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes). We shall always need a strong and effective Navy as long as the bulk of our supplies are brought by sea and as long as we have Commonwealth commitments and interests all over the world. We shall
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  always need our dockyards, and I am thinking particularly, of course, of Harland and Wolff, Limited, which is in my constituency and which plays a large part in Navy Estimates.
  The Harland and Wolff yard is mentioned on pages 220 and 223 of the Estimates. It is the largest single shipbuilding yard in the country and at the moment it is building a guided missile destroyer—one of the four for which orders have been placed—and two frigates. It is also fitting out the frigate "Berwick" which was launched last year and, in addition, building the aircraft carrier "Hercules" for the Indian Navy. This yard at one time built as many as three large aircraft carriers at the same time. It has 18 building berths and it has an excellent tradition of building fine ships, both naval and merchant.
  I urge on my hon. Friend the Civil Lord the great importance of keeping together the highly skilled craftsmen who work in the yards not only in Belfast but on the Clyde and Tyne and elsewhere. There are many skilled craftsmen there, such as platers, riveters, boilermakers, shipwrights, joiners, carpenters, painters, fitters of many specialist trades, draughtsmen, and last but by no means least, the electricians and electronic technicians.
  The Memorandum, which I read with interest, lays great stress on the increasing complexity and cost of modern battleships. Much of that cost is made up of the large variety of electronic devices which those ships have to carry. The skilled electricians and technicians in electronics, during a period of recession in the shipbuilding industry such as we are now facing, can easily pass from the dockyards into other industries. In that event, not only would our naval shipbuilding capacity be prejudiced, but also our merchant shipbuilding capacity, because merchant ships today carry much of the electronic equipment which has been developed for the Navy. If these men leave the dockyards they cannot be replaced.
  It is also important, when we consider the expenditure of the money which we are asked to vote tonight, to remember that the money voted by this House has gone a long way towards developing the electronic and other devices from which

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  we are benefiting, not only in protecting ourselves, but in their use by transport and in other ways.
  Mr. E. Fernyhough: How?
  Mr. McMaster: The hon. Gentleman asks me, how? For instance, radar is a great assistance in fog. Again, we are developing for naval purposes atomic engines for ships which I hope will also be used for civil purposes in the long run and which will perhaps reduce freight and other charges. If I may diverge for a moment, Sir Gordon, the supersonic planes we are developing would never have been developed in the time they have been—
  Mr. Fernyhough: But we cannot defend ourselves by these things. The Foreign Secretary has made it clear and the Minister of Defence has made it clear that we cannot defend ourselves with them; we can only destroy other people should they attempt to destroy us.
  Mr. McMaster: The hon. Gentleman appears to have missed the point. All I am saying to the Committee tonight is that expenditure on defence is not entirely wasted, as the hon. Member for South Ayrshire seemed to indicate, because technical progress results from it which has put us in the forefront as an exporting nation.
  I was particularly pleased to hear the Civil Lord refer to the new policy for giving contracts. My hon. Friend said that the Admiralty was reverting to the pre-war policy of inviting tenders for building ships. He qualified this by saying that other considerations would weigh with the Government, considerations not only of price but of local employment and also, I hope, the level of activity in the shipbuilding industry. I want to make a special plea tonight that when the Civil Lord is considering his shipbuilding plans he will look carefully at the level of activity in our shipyards, remembering the importance of keeping together the teams of skilled craftsmen to whom I have referred.
  I know that we are asked to vote large sums of money, not only tonight when we shall vote £397 million, but also last Thursday, when we voted £529 million for the Air Estimates, and later this week when we shall be asked to vote £487 million for the Army Estimates. The
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  grand total, including the other Votes, is over £1,600 million, which is a very large sum of money.
  Against that we must weigh the position and influence in world affairs of this country and the Commonwealth. We occupy a leading position and our power and influence rests on our ability to defend ourselves and our interests. Our responsibility is not the less important because of the spread of Communism in Europe and the Far East which has divided the world. Mention has been made tonight of Russia's submarine power and that may be a threat to this country.
  In the world today there are two major Powers with different political philosophies competing against each other. This creates a dangerous situation which we must face. Until a state of complete disarmament can be achieved, I believe that Britain must maintain her defence expenditure on all three Services. That is the only way to protect our far-flung interests and to deter any would-be agressor in Europe or the Far East from attempting to achieve his ends by threats of force. [Interruption.] I hear murmurs of dissent from hon. Members opposite, but I remind them that attempts to use force in this way led to many wars in the past.
  When one nation, or group of nations, becomes weak or unprotected, advantage is taken of them, and that is something which must never be allowed to happen again. I am sure that only the awful threat and the terrible effect of the nuclear deterrent, with all its horrible and suicidal implications, will make a potential aggressor think twice before making use of any local superiority of arms which he may possess in order to achieve his ends. Until we can have a complete and comprehensive world disarmament under proper control and with effective supervision, we must continue to spend these vast sums of money in order to maintain the peace of the world.
  9.28 p.m.
  Mr. John Rankin: I am sure that all hon. Members on this side of the Committee agree with the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) that expenditure on defence is not entirely wasted. Tonight we are dealing with the Navy and the hon.

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  Member and I represent shipbuilding areas. We look for ships to build and unfortunately, in the pressure of world events, we are not particularly mindful whether we build frigates or merchant ships. I should prefer to see merchant ships built at Govan. But just as the firm of Harland and Wolff at Belfast is willing to accept any "grist" coming to its shipbuilding "mills"—if I may mix my metaphors—the same is true of Harland and Wolff at Govan.
  The hon. Member for Belfast, East visualised a Navy sailing all over the world armed with nuclear deterrents but in that respect he was expanding his theme beyond the limit with which I would agree with him. Nevertheless, he was not far removed from the point of view of many hon. Members who have taken part in this debate. Tonight I have listened to a variety of reasons why we should have a Navy. One hon. Member wanted a Navy because it was nice to see British Navy ships sailing over the seas of the world when we were moving around it.
  Mr. A. C. Manuel: "Sailing down the Clyde"?
  Mr. Rankin: The hon. Member for Belfast, East wanted to see a strong and efficient Navy so long as food supplies came by sea. That, of course, anchors us from now on for ever more to a Navy, because I cannot see the time coming when food supplies for the most part will be brought here in any other way than by sea. If the hon. Member assumes that the fact of having a Navy will ensure our food supplies, I am sorry but I must part company from him. Even though we have a Navy I find it difficult to account for it sometimes because, just a few years ago, I flew from Hong Kong across the Pacific to Ceylon, and then into the Middle East.
  Commander J. W. Maitland: Across the Pacific?
  Mr. Rankin: Across the Indian Ocean to Ceylon. I am sorry if I missed out one little step. It was a big jump, but when one is in the air, one is accustomed to taking big jumps. Never once was I lucky enough to see one of these ships which ought to be sailing all over those parts of the world when we are spending this enormous amount on our Navy.
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  I heard as another reason for the Navy that it was a place where one could get a good career. I am not against those things. I want to see joiners employed and I want to see good careers provided for our boys. If the Navy is a place for doing these things of course, to some extent, that is a justification for a Navy, but I had a perhaps mistaken idea that the real and abiding purpose of the Navy was for defence, and because somehow or other we had seemingly contracted a great many enemies against us. There were enemies who were going to put false doctrines down our throats. There were enemies who were prepared to attack us. There were enemies who had interests in competition with ours: which challenged our interests.
  It never seems to come into the minds of a great many people that interests can not only come into conflict but can also come into harmony. If we can bring interests out of conflict into harmony, as we have done on innumerable occasions, we might diminish the need for navies, armies and air forces. Unless this House of Commons, this Parliament, is to devote more time and attention to trying to solve problems and not seeking solely to defend interests, of course we shall get what deterrents have always brought us—war.
  The hon. Member for Belfast. East preached the need for the deterrent as if the deterrent were something that was new in human society and human civilisation. I am certain it escaped his mind only momentarily that within our lifetime we have already believed in a deterrent which we thought could not be overcome—the "Dreadnought". That mighty battleship, the "Dreadnought", was supposed to safeguard this country from all offensives and invasions. Praise to the ironclads of the British Navy that would keep our foes at bay were sung all over the country. The British Navy that would keep our foes at bay became a music-hall story.
  Mr. McMaster: May I remind the hon. Gentleman that between 1918 and 1939 we disarmed and it had the result, as I tried to point out in my speech, of bringing on the Second World War.
  Mr. Rankin: That is a page from a sort of blotted copybook, because not

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  until now have I realised that this country disarmed after 1918. I will not carry that too far.
  We had the deterrent and it failed us.
  Mr. Richard Collard: The hon. Gentleman referred to the deterrent. Surely he would agree that the Royal Navy very largely kept the peace of the world for a hundred years. That is not a bad record.
  Mr. Rankin: I agree, but the Royal Navy, and all armies, keep the peace only when there is no war. It is difficult to imagine the Royal Navy, or any other armed force, keeping the peace when there is war.
  I have mentioned only one deterrent in which we trusted completely, and which failed us. We believed in it so much that we used to say, "'We want eight, and we will not wait", but it failed us. We then pinned our faith in our other great deterrent, the bomber, and in the Second World war that also failed us because, despite that deterrent, war came.
  We are once again pinning our faith to a deterrent. We all agree that if this deterrent fails us, assuming it is used, if it fails to keep the peace, few of us will live to tell the story that preceded its use. Deterrents are not things on which we can rely.
  The two centre pages of the Command Paper interest me most because to some extent they cover the aspect with which I have been trying to deal. They are pictorial. They give us arresting figures. They are graphic. They tell us about aircraft carriers, cruisers, submarines, and all our methods of defence. They tell us that in 1939 the "Illustrious" weighed 22,000 tons. In 1959 the "Hermes" weighed 23,000 tons. There is only a slight difference in weight, but while the "Illustrious" cost £3,800,000, the "Hermes" cost £18 million. She has only 500 additional officers and men on board, but that tremendous sum represents the increase in costs during the years between the construction of these two great deterrents to war.
  The cost of the electronic equipment for the "Illustrious" was £13,500. The cost of the electronic equipment for the "Hermes" was over £1 million. The cost of naval aircraft embarked in 1939
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  was £600,000. In 1959 for the "Hermes" it was £10 million. The same tale is told with regard to cruisers.
  Within twenty years we are singing the deterrent—not the deterrent of 1939 which failed but the deterrent of 1959 on which we pin our hopes; the nuclear weapon, carried in the De Havilland Sea Vixen and other craft. It costs fabulous sums, but yet it is true to say that, despite the enormous increase in the money spent in seeking defence, tonight this nation of ours has less defence than it had in 1939. We are more vulnerable, because in 1939 when we ventured war—forced to do so, as we say and as most people believe—we knew that some would survive. Not an individual in the Chamber tonight would guarantee that if we have to enter into war with our present equipment—on which we pin our faith in 1959—a single human being would see the end of the war. We now have a weapon which will not just defeat, not just kill; but will annihilate.
  The nation is faced with two alternatives if it now wants to go to war. We do not want of course to go to war. Despite all our desires not to go to war, somehow or other we always manage to get into war. Why? Sometimes I read the pages of history. I remember a history book which was used very extensively in our schools in Scotland. It described the reign of one of our great Queens as "eminently peaceful". That reign lasted for sixty years, during which we fought forty wars, but still our history books say that it was an "eminently peaceful" reign. It might have been a warlike reign only if we had fought a war in every year!
  However, for one reason or another we go to war. If we do so now we are faced with the alternative that, if we go to war without the nuclear weapon, we shall be defeated; we cannot win; but if we go to war with the nuclear weapon we shall be annihilated. There is the choice.
  What decision are we to make about it? I suggest that there is only one answer—that we dare not and must not go to war. If we are not going to war, we must stop thinking about bombs and their use as a means of solving problems. We have to turn to events like the forthcoming meeting at the Summit, a meeting among men who we hope will

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  seek to obtain a peaceful result by peaceful means. It is only along those lines that the world can survive.
  9.44 p.m.
  Commander J. W. Maitland: The hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) finished with a burst of oratory. I hope the Committee will forgive me if I bring the debate back from oratory to our more normal and pedestrian method of discussing the Navy Estimates. I must honestly say that if the hon. Gentleman, who I do not think likes the Navy very much, had served in it—
  Mr. Rankin: Would the hon. and gallant Member let me hear what he said?
  Commander Maitland: I said that I suspected that the hon. Gentleman did not like the Navy very much.
  Mr. Rankin: I love it.
  Commander Maitland: I was going to say that if he had served in the Royal Navy he would at least have learned a little geography. He would have learned that one does not fly from Hong Kong to Ceylon across the Pacific. That is what he said. I feel that if the rest of his speech, to which I listened with great interest, was not more accurate—
  Mr. Rankin: I said that as a slip. We flew across from Hong Kong down the Pacific and across the Indian Ocean.
  Commander Maitland: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman.
  I want to say something to the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes). I hope that he will accept my sincerity in my desire for peace. He may think that I am wrong-thinking in my methods of approach. I assure him that, just as I accept his sincerity, I hope that he will accept mine. The trouble is that it is our approach and method which is so completely different.
  I am most anxious not to enter into a conventional war by mistake. In fact, I would much rather be frightened by a nuclear war which did not come than have to face a conventional war that did. I think that we make a great mistake by being rather hypnotised by the horrors
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  of nuclear war when today a conventional war would be pretty well as bad in almost every respect. So, for heaven's sake, let us keep these two things reasonably balanced. He said that the Navy is obsolete. I do not think that is correct. The way in which I think we should reach out for peace is, as I said in the defence debate—and I do not want to repeat what I said then—that when we can get nuclear equality or stalemate and when it can be seen by both sides that that is exactly what we have, then there will be an opportunity for the Summit, to which the hon. Gentleman has referred, really to get on.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: That will be stalemate.
  Commander Maitland: There are moments in this terrible competition that is going on when there is a balance, and when those moments arrive progress can be made. I think that such a moment occurred earlier last year when the Prime Minister and Mr. Khrushchev and the President of the United States of America managed to go quite a long way in stopping the nuclear tests. I am not at all sure that they were not very considerably helped by the fact that at that moment I do not think the nations wanted nuclear tests very much. That is what I mean when I say that if we can create, and let it be seen to be created, a state in which there is nuclear parity, there may be a really great chance of stepping forward towards peace.
  Mr. Stan Awbery: When we arrive at that state of parity, when the two nations think that they are equal, there is a race for one of them to get ahead and we do not prevent war at all. We deter war for the time being, but what we want today is not a deterrent but the prevention of war.
  Commander Maitland: We both want the prevention of war, and the hon. Gentleman and I differ only as to the best way in which we can get it. I do not think we can argue about that. It is my firm conviction that we are going the right way about that in a very difficult world. It is easy to make mistakes.
  Mr. Manuel: That is a most dangerous philosophy. The hon. and gallant Member says that the nuclear deterrent is the real deterrent and that it will not be used. If it can never be used, the nation that has the lead in conventional forces can upset us as much as it likes and get away with it.
  Commander Maitland:I do not think the hon. Gentleman has quite followed what is happening in international affairs—
  Mr. Manuel: Very much so. It is the party opposite that is the hidebound element.
  Commander Maitland: We say that we cannot have nuclear disarmament unless we have conventional disarmament as well; that that is absolutely essential. If that happens, I think that the hon. Gentleman's fears may, to some extent, be set at rest.
  I should like now to refer to the speech made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Commander Courtney). I must frankly say that on some points I disagree with him. As far as I could understand, he said that he believed in the nuclear deterrent, and even went so far as to say that he hoped —and I agree with him here—that its mobility might be extended in the form of Polaris, or in some other way. He then added that we cannot be strong at the same time in two places. My hon. and gallant Friend developed the argument that we should have a great many more conventional escort vessels to deal with the 500—or whatever the number may be—Russian submarines. First, I cannot conceive of circumstances in which we could have an all-out submarine war waged against us that would not develop into a nuclear war. Secondly, we really cannot afford both a sufficiency of anti-submarine craft and the deterrent. We have to cut our suit according to our cloth. I believe that the present Defence Estimates are very well up to what we can afford if we are to fight our economic battles as well. That, too, is of very great importance—
  Commander Courtney: I think that my hon. and gallant Friend got me slightly wrong. I did stress my belief that the total Defence Estimates were what the country could reasonably afford—that the expenditure on
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  the deterrent as 10 per cent. of that on the conventional forces was more or less accurate,—but that what we required was a change of emphasis within the conventional forces.
  Mr. Manuel: This is civil war.
  Commander Maitland: It is difficult to see how we could change the balance without incurring very great expense. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that, like everyone else, I want to see us strong in every position, but I know that we cannot achieve that.
  It is most important that we should not fall into the trap into which fall many people outside who have not our small advantages of seeing White Papers and so on; the trap of confusing the size of the Navy with its strength. I wonder what would happen if the "Bismarck" came out today? I am sure that quite a lot of hon. Gentlemen have seen the film, "Sink the Bismarck", and appreciate what an extremely difficult task it was, even though, in many respects, we had a Navy larger in numbers than that of today. Yet, on analysis, I believe that what we have today would have done the job much more quickly.
  Arising out of that, I would like to support those hon. Members who have asked for more general information. More information could not hurt those of us who seek to study general problems of defence. We often look at the American scientific magazines and, from the experts, we know that the data in those magazines is almost exactly accurate. I do not know where it comes from, but it does not do any harm.
  I remember that when the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) produced the W.E.U. Report to which reference has been made, he listed the various aeroplanes and nuclear weapons and so on possessed by the Western nations and by Russia. The detail was surprising. Some of the things in that analysis went very close to the bone, and were accurate. But all we were told about the V-bombers was that they fly very high and very fast. That was all we had. There were no details of their performances in the same way as was given so accurately about the Russian and American aircraft. That is an example of the way in which we are working at the moment. It seems to me

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  that if we depend on a deterrent, and if we say, "We are so strong that it is dangerous to go to war with us", it is unfortunate that we do not tell the world a little more about our strength. Today the Navy is strong. The Navy is probably stronger today than it has ever been in our history, and that is a fact which should be made clear. I should like it to be stronger, of course, but I do not believe that is possible at the moment.
  I should like to ask some questions which are rather unrelated but to which not much reference has been made. I wish to refer first to landing craft. We have heard a lot in this House recently about the provision of landing craft, and it is time that we took this matter to heart. In the Explanatory Memorandum reference is made to tank landing craft and landing ships. What about all the other types of landing craft that we need? I can see no reference to them. I should like to be assured that even the small ones are being brought up to date and that we have an efficient fleet of these useful little craft at our disposal.
  Reference has been made to the 21 Russian type submarines which are in the Mediterranean and which might be used in the sort of small war which we shall probably always have with us. Are we able to cope with them? I believe that the forces we have are able to cope with them, but I should like an assurance on that point.
  In the Western European Union Report one finds anxiety expressed about the methods which are being used to protect merchant ships against fallout, and this is a problem to which the Admiralty should address itself. I understand that this is not a very expensive matter and that a sum of about £5,000 will make a merchant ship reasonably safe against fall-out. It is easier to get protection against fall-out if one has the sea all around, than if one is in the middle of a great town. It is almost as important to deal with this question as it is to attempt to defend our ships against attack from submarines.
  The next question I should like to ask is this. If our ports were destroyed, have we any means of feeding and supplying this country from the beaches? Have we got this one "taped", and if so, where does it appear in the Vote? I have looked through the Estimates to
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  see whether any money is devoted to this purpose, but I can find no reference to this question, and I should like to know whether anything is being done. One would have thought that there would have been some alternative method of bringing in vital stores to this country if our ports were destroyed.
  The theme in the defence debate, and to some extent in this, has been the importance of mobility. The great advantage of the Navy is in its mobility. Moreover, it is the job of the Navy to help the other Services to be mobile.
  It being Ten o'clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
  Committee report Progress.
  Ordered,
  That this day the Business of Supply may be taken after Ten o'clock and shall be exempted from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House) for Two hours after Ten o'clock.—[Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing.]
  Supply again considered in Committee.
  Mr. Fernyhough: On a point of order. So that I may be fully cognisant of what happened, will you tell me whether I am correct, Mr. Diamond, in thinking that, as the Whip moved to report Progress, that being a debatable Motion, it should have been passed before we proceeded?
  The Temporary Chairman (Mr. J. Diamond): I did not hear exactly what the hon. Member said.
  Mr. Fernyhough: The Government spokesman moved to report Progress. I should have thought that that was a debatable Motion and, in any case, was liable to be put to the Committee for approval.
  The Temporary Chairman: What happened was that the Chairman left the Chair at 10 o'clock. Progress was reported and leave to sit again was asked. On behalf of the Prime Minister, it was sought to suspend the Rule, and that was carried without a dissenting voice. I now call Commander Maitland to resume his speech.
  Commander Maitland: Before we were interrupted, I was saying that mobility was of vital importance to the Navy and that it was very important that the Navy should give mobility to the other Services. I think that one of the

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  Navy's main duties is to enable the other Services to be mobile and I should like to be assured that there is no prejudice in the Navy against its having fast transports under its own control so that it can move troops or stores at very short notice.
  I know that the Navy relies, and has in the past successfully relied, on the Merchant Marine, but there is always the trouble, which we had before Suez, of the rush round to commandeer ships and so on at the last moment, which is an unsatisfactory state of affairs. I should like the Navy to be in a state of readiness at a far higher level and to have its own ships ready at a moment's notice and under its control. That is all I have to say and I hope that we shall have some answers to my questions.
  10.4 p.m.
  Mr. Stan Awbery: While listening to the debate, I have thought that if there are people on Mars and if it is possible for them to see us discussing questions of defence, they must think that this is one large mental home. That must be their opinion in view of the amount of money which we are spending on preventing war which we know will come unless we adopt methods which are now being suggested.
  Before the First World War, we spent £110 million a year for all the Services. The expenditure has jumped to £1,650 million in 1960. It is called a deterrent, but a deterrent prevents war so long as one's potential enemy—
  The Temporary Chairman: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but I must prevent him from pursuing this matter too widely. We must get back to the Navy.
  Mr. Awbery: Expenditure on the Navy is bound to come into the question of expenditure on war. I am trying to point out that the amount of money which we are spending is being spent on a deterrent. The word "deterrent" has been used at least a dozen times since I have been in the Committee this evening.
  The Temporary Chairman: I must make it clear to the hon. Gentleman that we are discussing the Navy. I have not yet heard him mention anything which shows that he is concerned with the Motion before us.
  Mr. Fernyhough: On a point of order. We need some clarification in this matter. This expenditure is necessary in order that the deterrent can be effective. The deterrent is purposeless unless the money is granted. If the money is not granted, we shall not have the means of delivering it is it is desired. I should have thought, therefore, that it was difficult to separate the deterrent from the Estimates.
  The Temporary Chairman: It is not so difficult, and the Chair is here to help in that difficulty.
  Mr. Awbery: Let me use another word instead of "deterrent". Let me refer to the prevention of war. It is proposed that we should spend £400 million on the prevention of war, or, if war comes, to fight that war. I am trying to prove that the spending of £400 million on a deterrent will not prevent war because a potential enemy, if he is weak, will be deterred from attacking us because we are stronger. That is where the deterrent comes in. A deterrent deters or prevents war only until a weaker potential enemy becomes as strong as oneself, in which case one begins to expend more and to increase one's armaments. There is then an armament race. It is a matter of a race in arms so that the stronger can prevent the weaker from attacking.
  Lieut.-Commander S. L. C. Maydon: I think that the hon. Member has the argument about the deterrent completely upside down. As I see it, the whole object is that a not so strong nation, such as Britain is these days, can deter her much more powerful neighbours from doing damage to her and to her allies.
  Mr. Awbery: I think that the argument of the hon. and gallant Gentleman is correct. The people of this country believe that the deterrent is a preventive when in fact it is not. It merely postpones war for a short period.
  The Temporary Chairman: Order. I hope that the hon. Member realises that I have invited him three times to address his mind to the Motion before the Committee, which does not relate to general principles but to the Navy, which has a bearing on these matters. I have tried to be as helpful as I could to the hon. Gentleman, but it is difficult when it is necessary to address him three times.
  Mr. Awbery: Expenditure on the Navy must come into all questions of our defence. That is why I have tried to develop the argument. If, however, you say, Mr. Diamond, that I am out of order in discussing money being spent upon what we consider to be the deterrent, I bow to your Ruling.
  10.10 p.m.
  Brigadier Terence Clarke: I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Awbery) to Mars or the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) to the Scottish coalfields. The hon. Member for South Ayrshire was interesting when he said that all aircraft carriers which cost £10 million became obsolete almost before they are launched and that it would be much better to spend the money on the Scottish coalmines. That was the gist of what the hon. Member wanted to say. I would point out to him that Her Majesty's ships stopped using his coal years ago and that his coal has been obsolete for so long that it would be much better if he were to shut down the mines. I will not, however, pursue that argument much longer, or I might be as out of date as the hon. Member.
  I want in particular to refer to pay and conditions in Her Majesty's dockyards and especially in Portsmouth dockyard, of which I have special knowledge. These dockyards are sparsely represented by members of the trade unions. I have done my best to try to persuade people to join their unions, but they have been reluctant to do so. I understand some of their reluctance when I try to get the Admiralty to do certain things but am told that there are agreements with the unions which do not allow the Admiralty, for example, to employ dilutee fitters. I am told that the A.E.U. and the Admiralty have an agreement, and that certain dilutee fitters who have been working in the dockyards for as long as nine or ten years have to go if there is one craftsman unemployed or available elsewhere.
  I have always felt that the trade unions were there to help the working man. When fifty men who have been working in a dockyard for a long time are thrown out because of some obsolete arrangement between the Admiralty and the A.E.U., it is time that the Admiralty
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  brought such an agreement to an end. It may have worked well in the past— the Admiralty may have had the best of it—but at the moment the Admiralty is losing good men. I have a letter from the First Lord saying that he would very much like to employ these men but is not able to do so because of the A.E.U.
  I suggest that that arrangement, whereby dilutees who belong to that union cannot be employed, should be brought to an end at the earliest possible time. These men are very well trained. Often they have to train the very men who come in from outside to take their place and who are supposed to be craftsmen. That seems to me wrong and I am sure that if my hon. Friend the Civil Lord goes into the matter, he can get a better agreement with the A.E.U. than he has managed to get up to now.
  Whenever I have spoken about dockyard wages, I have always been told that this is a matter for agreement with the unions, both by the union members and by the Admiralty. In fact, however, the Admiralty does not allow the overtime that these ordinary craftsmen would get if they were working on the Clyde or elsewhere. I would say that they do not get the overtime chiefly because naval officers are not particularly keen on working overtime. The naval officers get the same pay whether there is overtime or not, and the sooner the dockyard closes, the quicker the uniformed officials can go home.
  That is the sort of thing that makes the Service cities extremely poor. The average wage in Portsmouth is £3-£4 a week less than the national average. I should like to quote what appeared in the Portsmouth Evening News the other day after a rise had been granted in Service pay. It states:
  "It is in Service towns such as Portsmouth that the new rates will cause some resentment."
  That is, the new Service rates, against which I have no grouse. The sailor, soldier and airmen deserve a good wage. The quotation continues:
  "A Luton car-assembly worker may notice without a blink that a married chief electrical artificer will get a rise of over £2 a week to £22 15s., but pay for workers in Government establishments has a sparse look by comparison. If well over £1,000 a year is required in relation to 'average earnings in manufacturing and other industries.' it must be expected that men

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  in the Royal Dockyards may also regard themselves as deserving of consideration. If well over £1,000 a year is required in relation to average workers in manufacturing and other industries it must be expected that the men in the Royal Dockyards may also regard this as deserving of consideration."
  There are many men working in Portsmouth dockyard shown as unskilled but doing semi-skilled jobs, and there are semi-skilled people doing skilled jobs. The Admiralty, in my opinion, is employing people under false pretences and getting labour very cheap. I should like to see a strong union there to see that these men get properly paid, and I should like taken into consideration the fact that they do not get a bonus or war bonus as other people do in other engineering industries.
  Then there is another class of people I would draw the Civil Lord's attention to, the storehouse men. The storehouse men are absolutely like the storehouse men in the other two Services, the Army and the Air Force, and, for that matter, in certain civilian establishments. These men in naval establishments however have to pass an examination every two years. When they do pass the examination nothing happens except that they are put on the list of those who have passed within the last two years. If they are not established they have to take the examination again in two years. Men of 48 and 50 are still being called upon to do quite complicated mathematical examinations as storehouse men, and they never get any farther, and if eventually a man fails at 50, then he is put on the failed list, although he has passed for forty years.
  Mr. Awbery: If there is a trade union in the yard, and if there is an agreement made between the trade union and the Admiralty governing the conditions which the hon. and gallant Member is talking about, then it is the union which should be dealing with the matter.
  Brigadier Clarke: Yes, there is a trade union, and I have written about this not only to the Admiralty but to a Member of the House who is head of that union, the A.E.U., and he says that there is nothing which the union or the Admiralty can do about it. Between them, nothing gets done. If the hon. Member for Bristol, Central can do something, I shall be very grateful to him.
  Mr. Awbery: Surely, this is a trade union matter which should be discussed in the trade union branch and in the trade union organisation, not raised by a Member of Parliament tonight.
  Brigadier Clarke: The hon. Gentleman, having been out of order for so long, is trying to pretend that I am out of order.
  I do not belong to any union. I have no intention of joining one, but if I want to say a word about it in this Committee I have a perfect right to do so. I am going to recommend the people in Portsmouth not to join a union in the future unless the union can pull its thumb out and do something for these men.
  However, I should like to press on. I have got as far as the storehouse keepers. They have had a very poor deal for a very long time. I would point out to the Civil Lord that they are all anxious to be considered, and quite rightly so, as non-industrials, but the Admiralty insists on treating them as industrials and they get all the disadvantages which goes with being industrials. In every other branch of the Services these men are not industrials, and the Admiralty is the last to give way on this point, and I am sure that if the Civil Lord will consult the Association of Supervisors and Radio Officers, to which most of these men belong, he will learn that the Admiralty is a long way out of date in regarding these men as industrials.
  As for the lower deck officers, the S.D. officers, really they have a rather raw deal. There is no one ever to speak for these men. There are many upper deck officers in this Committee to look after the man who comes in the ordinary scheduled way, the normal entry, but the man who rises from the lower deck has got where he eventually is by the hard way, and in my opinion deserves a very reasonable pension. A lieutenant who retires or is thrown out, having come up from the lower deck, gets £504, whereas the man who has been to Dartmouth gets £625.
  It seems to me quite wrong that a man who has spent thirty-three years in the Service, and has got as far in peace time as any lower deck rating is likely to get, should find himself with a very much smaller pension than a man who has been to Dartmouth, who, if he is

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  thrown out as a lieutenant-commander, has not done as well, but who gets a much bigger pension than the man who has done very well and has come up from the lower deck. Perhaps the Civil Lord will see what he can do to improve the lot of these officers.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: I always thought that the hon. and gallant Member was a Communist.
  Brigadier Clarke: If I were to tell you, Mr. Diamond, what I think the hon. Member for South Ayrshire is, I should be out of order; but I know that he is such a pacifist that he will fight everyone to the last pacifist, and I am not going to fight him.
  I should like finally to mention the case of the pre-1950 widows of ratings, who received no pension at all and who still receive nothing. This matter was raised before in a letter to the Admiralty, and it was agreed that it should be looked at again, although nothing could be done for the moment. Although nearly every other sort of Service widow and Service pensioner has had some kind of increase since 1950, the pre-1950 widows of petty officers still get nothing except the 10s. widow's pension. That seems quite wrong, and I think that the Admiralty should be a little more generous and look after the ex-officers and their widows if they want the new entries to come into the Royal Navy in the same numbers and of the same quality as in the past.
  I would make one further plea that the Admiralty should build one of these nuclear submarines in one of our own dockyards. I said this before we put down the last one. The Admiralty met me half-way by putting down the "Dreadnought" in Portsmouth dockyard, and I understand it is now nearly complete. I feel quite certain that these dockyard personnel, who are amongst the most skilled in this country, are quite capable of building any nuclear submarines and nuclear ships required in the future. I therefore hope that my hon. Friend the Civil Lord will be able to give us a real surprise this evening by telling us that he intends to do something which we really need to have done, and that is to have nuclear ships built in Portsmouth.
  10.24 p.m.
  Mr. E. Fernyhough: The hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West (Brigadier Clarke) has not spoken tonight with the clarity that we usually expect him to show. He said at one time that he would do his best to get everyone in Portsmouth to join a union, and later on said that he would go back to Portsmouth and seek to get everybody out of the unions. He started his speech by saying that he approved of the Estimates, though by the time his speech had ended, and if he could have his own way, millions more would have been added to them.
  In that respect, the hon. and gallant Gentleman has been completely in step with almost everyone else who has spoken from the benches opposite during this debate. Without exception, almost everyone whom I have heard has been arguing for some further expenditure, has been putting forward his own pet idea on which there should be additional expenditure, and I have no doubt that if the Admiralty take notice of what they have said and decide to meet their wishes, the bill next year will be considerably higher than it is this year.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Horn-castle (Commander Maitland) was no exception. He had a quarrel with the hon. and gallant Member for Harrow, East (Commander Courtney). He wanted more landing craft and installations, presumably on the beaches, to bring in food supplies after the ports had been destroyed. I ask what kind of world we are living in when there can be in it intelligent people who believe that after the ports of Britain have been destroyed in a nuclear war there will be any need to bring food into Britain. Yet this was the purport of his speech. We were still going to carry on after there had been wholesale obliteration and the ports had been wiped out. Somehow the waters round the island would not be radioactive and ships would be able to sail through them quite safely.
  Yet when we carried out tests in the Pacific eighteen months ago the shipping of the world was warned that it would be dangerous for six months for any ships to sail through the waters in which the experimental bomb had been dropped. I assume that if the catastrophe ever came and nuclear bombs

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  were dropped the Navy would have finished its sailing, because it would be as impossible for it to sail in the Irish Sea, in the Channel or in the North Sea as it was for those ships which we warned not to sail in the Pacific.
  One of the things that always causes me some measure of amusement on occasions of this kind is to realise how quickly hon. Members opposite forget what they say in public. We are only a few months removed from the General Election. The commonest question I was asked by supporters of hon. Members opposite during that election was, "Where is the money to come from?" Nobody is asking that question on these Estimates. Nobody is asking where we are to find the extra £27 million which they involve.
  There is not the probing inquiry which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) said there should be in 1948 when we, now on this side of the Committee, occupied the benches opposite. Then the right hon. Gentleman was demanding that the big staffs in the Admiralty should be cut down and that some of the swivel chairs should be taken from under them. But we do not hear speeches of that kind now. It is amazing, because the staffs are still there and they are costing more today than they did then.
  Lieut.-Commander Maydon: The hon. Member was talking about being interrupted during his election speeches. I have no doubt that he was saying how his party would spend the money if it was re-elected, but of course the big difference is that it was not re-elected and, therefore, the money is available.
  Mr. Fernyhough: I am quite sure that, whatever other stories the hon. and gallant Member told his constituents during the election, one story which he would not tell them was that the Government would increase expenditure if they were returned. There was no Conservative on any platform in the last election who said that the purpose of his being returned was to increase government expenditure. Every one of them said that his party would economise, run the country more efficiently and thereby reduce expenditure.
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  I do not believe that we are being fair to the British people, that we are being frank and open with them. We are trying to convince them that this expenditure on the Navy, plus the expenditure on the other Services, will somehow guarantee peace, or make it possible for them to survive in the event of another war. But this expenditure is not for defence, as was made clear by the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and others. There is no defence. The instruments on which it is proposed to spend this money, if they are ever used, will be used to commit suicide. We should tell our people, Mr. Khrushchev should tell the Russians and President Eisenhower should tell the Americans that if ever we use the weapons for which we are voting this money, it will be an end to our civilisation.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West pleaded for the unemployed ship workers in Portsmouth. There are many more unemployed in Jarrow than Portsmouth. I should like some of this money to be devoted to improving our merchant navy. That would be worthwhile expenditure and it would increase our competitive power. The Government are anxious that work should be provided in those areas where there is high unemployment. Perhaps my constituency is "top of the league" in that respect. When the Admiralty places contracts I ask that it takes into consideration what I would term social factors, and pays some regard to the unemployed and the needs of areas which have rendered good service in the past to the Admiralty and the nation. I ask for no special favours, but if these contracts are to be issued, I hope that my constituency will not be forgotten.
  10.33 p.m.
  Mr. Ray Mawby: The hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough) said that all the money we spend on the Navy and the other Services could not bring us peace. I believe that our defence expenditure has done a great deal to cause the leaders of the world to prefer to sit round a table and talk rather than to show their muscles. That is a sufficient justification for spending the money.
  Mr. Fernyhough: I said it could not defend us in the event of the disaster coming.
  Mr. Mawby: That is the whole point. That is the 64 dollar question. I believe the very existence of the nuclear weapon, the fact that so many nations have it, makes more certain that no nation will declare war. Therefore, I believe that the very existence of this weapon in the hands of a number of nations means that nations are more prepared to talk together than they were before.
  Mr. Fernyhough: Suez?
  Mr. Mawby: Suez, of course, was a small police force operation with which our Navy is at the moment quite capable of dealing. That is the important thing. If we all think that in these days of nuclear war there is no need for us to keep our police forces, as we call them, to maintain all our shipping routes, all our different communications throughout the world, of course we would be completely wrong, but I do not want to be diverted, because I want to say only a few words.
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  Dartmouth being within my constituency, I want to ask my hon. Friend the Civil Lord a question about the position of the Director of Studies. Because of ill-health, a Director of Studies retired some considerable time ago. As far as I know, there has been no replacement and no real attempt to find a new Director of Studies. I want an assurance from my hon. Friend that it is not the intention that the present arrangement of the balance between the naval staff and the Director of Studies and the civilian staff should be altered—that there is no intention of bringing in a captain instructor in the place of the Director of Studies and so changing the whole concept of Dartmouth.
  As the Member for the constituency, I am very much the man who is looking in on this matter. I do not know all the ins and outs, but I believe it would be against the interests of Dartmouth and all it stands for if the civilian side, headed by the Director of Studies, were changed and there were a captain instructor. I ask for an assurance that no change such as I fear is envisaged.
  10.37 p.m.
  Mr. Thomas Steele: I begin tonight by paying a tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis). I am glad he had the opportunity of speaking for our party today. I know how right the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) was when he paid tribute to him. I know my hon. Friend is a thorn in the flesh of the Secretary of State for Scotland and to many of his Under-Secretaries, but I think all of us who take part in Navy debates know that he cannot hide his affection for the Navy.
  He does not, however, allow his love and affection for the Navy to lull his keen desire to probe the Estimates and to do all he can to improve the conditions of those who serve in it. Today his contribution has been probing and certainly it has been constructive. I was not surprised that he had something to say about the artificers. Nor was I surprised at his critical remarks on the Admiralty Office. I should have been very disappointed had he not run true to form on the latter because I know the Admiralty Office has a special place in the hearts of my hon. Friend and the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East.
  This is the fifth time that I have spoken from the Opposition Front Bench on the Navy Estimates. Last week I took the opportunity of rereading some of the previous debates. I also read the speeches on the defence debates. As I read through them, the thought struck me, what is the reaction of the people outside who read these debates?
  As in the past, our debate today has ranged from high strategy to tax-free payments to the Royal Naval Reserve for weekend duties, and issues of that kind. Our debates are rather untidy, and sometimes a bit unreal. I have an uneasy feeling—and this feeling grows stronger with each debate in which I take part—that somehow we are not doing our job properly. Speeches that have not been made in the defence debate are made during the debates on the Estimates, as the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) admitted, but other speeches are made
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  which are much more relevant to the Committee stage, and this adds to our confusion.
  The position this year is slightly worse, because first we had a foreign affairs debate which turned into a defence debate, and not a very good one at that.
  Mr. George Brown: I beg my hon. Friend's pardon.
  Mr. Steele: Apart from the speech of my right hon. Friend. We then had a two-day defence debate, which again, apart from the speech of my right hon. Friend, was concerned mainly with restating arguments which have been hashed and re-hashed over the past few years.
  I would have thought that during the defence debate the Minister of Defence had a responsibility to outline the general policy of the Government and to indicate what part each service had to play. Also, with our responsibility to N.A.T.O., to show how and in what way we were getting efficiency allied with economy. Had we had that statement, our main task in today's debate would have been to examine closely how the Board of Admiralty was facing its task.
  What did the Minister of Defence say about the Navy in the last defence debate? I am not sure that he sank it, but he did not say very much about it. He said three things. First, that a rating on board H.M.S. "Victorious" had told him that he was better fed than he had ever been before. Secondly, that we must get into this nuclear submarine business. Thirdly, that the Commando carrier "Bulwark" was so good that we ought to have another, rather like the lad who enjoyed his ice-cream and went to his mother and said, "I ought to have another one".
  That is all that was mentioned in the debate. That does not constitute a policy, and it does not show us where the Navy fits into the general rôle of the defence policy of this country. One of the interesting things that has been said during the course of the debate—and I dealt with this at some length last year—is that we lack information. This was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East, by the hon. and gallant

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  Member for Croydon, North-East, and by many other hon. Members. Hon. Gentlemen do not have the opportunity to become fully informed, with the result that defence matters do not receive the attention they should.
  Some interesting suggestions have been made today. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu) made one. My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) made another. Having discussed this subject with Members of Parliament in other countries, I feel that we should examine the situation to see whether something more should be done. Some day we may get round to having a defence committee of the House of Commons in which hon. Members could have the opportunity to examine defence chiefs as well as Ministers. In the meantime, I think that the present position is unsatisfactory.
  I turn to one or two points which emerged during the debate. I was interested in the announcement by the Civil Lord of the new procedure which was being considered regarding the placing of orders for ships. He said that competitive tendering would be the practice. As an old member of the Public Accounts Committee, I welcome the announcement. I am very glad about it, because I have a feeling—I have some information about the matter—that much overtime and weekend working, particularly Sunday duty, was spent on naval ships and not on the other jobs which many yards were doing.
  The hon. Gentleman started to say something about N.A.T.O. I was disappointed, because I was listening with care and I had hoped that he would say more. I shall say something about N.A.T.O. later. Instead of continuing with what I thought should be an important part of his speech, he went on to tell us a very interesting and amusing story about the experiences of naval gun crews in the United States.
  Some very pertinent questions have been asked during the course of the debate. My hon. Friend mentioned some matters of interest about the Western European Union Reports, to which the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East also referred. I shall refer to the subject later. The
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  hon. and gallant Gentleman raised other very pertinent questions. I hope that the Civil Lord took note of them, particularly that concerning the target figure for men. The hon. and gallant Gentleman also took up the question about service afloat raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East. In the course of my career I have been involved in compiling many statistics, and I know what can be done with them. I hope that the hon. and gallant Gentleman receives an answer to his pertinent question.
  The naval barracks at Chatham were mentioned. I should have liked to deal with this subject, but I have not time to deal with every point. In view of what was said in the debate last year, we shall have to await an answer to this.
  Major refits were mentioned. I was interested, too, in the hon. and gallant Gentleman's remarks about aircraft carriers. It is very welcome to hear a speech about their vulnerability and use from the opposite side of the House. The point has been mentioned by my hon. Friends on a number of occasions. Indeed, my hon. Friend mentioned it in opening the debate today.
  Then we heard about Blue Streak and Polaris. It may be logical ultimately to put the deterrent in a submarine. But I do not think this is just a matter for a debate on the Navy Estimates. It is of much greater importance. A submarine which carries this weapon will not add anything to the Navy. It is different from any kind of ship that we have ever had before. One important feature of the Navy is its mobility and the way in which the ships can be used for so many different purposes. If a submarine is to carry the deterrent, the only question that arises is that of providing the appropriate launching platform. Therefore, this would be a question of overall strategy and would have to be decided as such. However, I am not prepared to enter into an inter-Service battle on this question, because I do not think it should be considered in that way. If, in fact, it did happen, then I agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East that that would mean the end of the Royal Air Force. There would be no point in having it at all.
  Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I should not like to be misrepresented. I did not say that. What I said was that if these matters were going to be decided on the ground of inter-Service rivalry, then the two Services should be merged.
  Mr. G. Brown: If we had won the election we would have done it.
  Mr. Steele: We on these benches have put forward this point of view for a number of years.
  The hon. and gallant Member for The Hartlepools (Commander Kerans) suggested that there should be a simple booklet setting out the rôle of the Navy. We have been trying to get the Government to set out the rôle of the Navy for a number of years. I do not think any simple booklet would serve that purpose, although I agree that it would be useful to have a booklet setting out the career structure and the opportunities that exist for those who join the Navy. I find it difficult to understand all the methods by which promotion can be gained, and such information would be of use not only in recruiting but to Members of Parliament as well.
  I will not attempt to deal with all the points that were raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Horncastle (Commander Maitland), who is not at present with us. He said that we ought not to confuse the size and strength of our naval forces and gave us a picture of what would happen to the "Bismarck" if it came out today. But the "Bismarck" would not come out today. We should have to contend with some other kind of ship, probably a nuclear submarine.
  I was interested in the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth, West (Brigadier Clarke), who also is not with us at the moment. I was going to welcome him into the ranks of trade union organisers and wish him well in his work.
  Last year, the White Paper was headed "The Navy Today". I drew attention to the error in that title and indicated that it should be "The Navy Tomorrow," because that is what that document really dealt with. This has been happening for a number of years. What we have been told is not what we have got but what we are going to have. For instance, credit is taken
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  every year for the angled deck, the mirror landing device, the steam catapult and so forth. This has been going on year after year, and, having taken credit for these things, it is time that we left it at that.
  This year, the Admiralty has been much wiser and merely called the White Paper "Report on the Navy." I would compliment the Civil Lord on the quality of the production. It has a nice cover, is well produced and has some good pictures. At the same time, there is a tendency to follow the tabloid newspapers of today in its style and also, perhaps, in its contents. My criticism of it, as of those newspapers to which I have just referred, is not of what it contains but of what has been left out.
  Let us look at page 3. There we find reference to the first Commando carrier having been commissioned. I recall that I welcomed this decision in 1958, and today I interrupted the Civil Lord when he said something about it because I indicated two years ago that many hon. Members on both sides of the Committee welcomed this decision. Yet I was quietly reprimanded by the Civil Lord at that time when I ventured to suggest that it would be quite impossible to have "Bulwark" in operation as a commando carrier by the date which had been suggested.
  If the Civil Lord would look at Hansard for that time, he will see it stated that "Bulwark"
  "… should be in service in her new guise in the summer of next year".—[Official Report, 4th March, 1958; Vol. 583, col. 985.]
  The summer of next year, to my reckoning, was the summer of 1959; but perhaps it cannot be helped. We are just a little late.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: The explanation is that "Bulwark" was detained in the Persian Gulf for much longer than was anticipated because of events in the Middle East. We were not slow in converting her. The reason is that she went in for conversion much later than was hoped.
  Mr. Steele: I accept that, but a difficulty of the Government is that there is some continuity on this side of the Committee and we remember the promises which the Government have made.

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  I notice that this column is headed, "The power and mobility of the Fleet increased", but no claim is made for "Tiger" having joined the fleet. Is this an error or an omission, or merely a recognition of what my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East said today, namely, that one cannot make a new house out of an old one? Perhaps a mistake has been made. Then, nothing is said about aircraft at all, so there appears to be no highlights, although this section is headed: "The highlights of the report". There is nothing about the Wessex helicopter, although the Civil Lord did say something of that in his speech.
  I come now to the first main question of those which I want to ask. Has the rô1e of the Royal Navy changed since it was defined in the Defence White Paper of 1958? A great deal was said in the Explanatory Statement for 1958–59, and the Parliamentary and Financial Secretary spoke at length about it in the debate in March, 1958. It is not mentioned this year, nor was it mentioned last year, but some doubt was thrown on it by a statement of the then Minister of Supply. What he said was:
  "Let us look at the Navy.
  The main rô1e of the Navy at present, whatever the future may hold, is the limited war rôle".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th February, 1959; Vol. 600, c. 1320.]
  That is rather different from what was set out in the 1958 White Paper on Defence and hardly squares with the statement about the anti-submarine rôle which, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) pointed out very forcefully last year, accounted for three-quarters of the Estimates, because it is very difficult to believe that the anti-submarine rôle is a limited war rôle and yet it is that upon which we spend most of the money.
  The second question is whether the Admiralty has departed from paragraph 46 of the Defence White Paper of 1958 —if the Admiralty ever believed in it, although I thought that it was an admirable statement—which said:
  "Since, apart from fulfilling certain colonial responsibilities, the Royal Navy will be operating in conjunction with other allied navies, the aim will be to make the most effective contribution to the combined forces of the Alliance, and not necessarily to provide a fully balanced all-purpose British fleet".
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  I supported that statement. That is what interdependence means. It was a frank statement backing up what the Minister of Defence had said, that we could no longer go it alone, that we could not be defended in isolation. Here was a desire to get an effective contribution to our defence, along with our Allies, with the greatest possible economies.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) and I were so impressed with that paragraph that we thought that we should help the Minister. Both of us are members of the Defence and Armaments Committee of Western European Union and, in a Report on Naval Forces, this matter was specially considered. In my hon. Friend's Report, Document 128, this view was clearly set out, and it was discussed and accepted by the Assembly meeting in Paris in July, 1959. It was clear that here we had not only the economic advantages, but the value of greater efficiency, which was desired by those who took part in the discussion.
  Therefore, in Recommendation 35 to the Council of Ministers, there was embodied the following resolution:
  "That, with a view to establishing overall balanced naval forces for N.A.T.O. responsibilities in Western Europe, specific tasks be allocated, by means of periodical reviews, to member countries, thus encouraging more specialisation and avoiding duplication and overlapping of forces to the detriment of other requirements."
  This was not put forward as something out of the blue or because we believed in Government policy as set out in paragraph 46 of the 1958 Defence White Paper. This was put forward after the Defence and Armaments Committee had had the opportunity of visiting many naval commands and discussing this with navy people.
  The Recommendation was passed by the Assembly and thus went to the Council of Ministers, which has an obligation to reply, which said:
  "Under the title ' balanced collective forces ' the concept of ' overall balanced forces' has been the subject of continuous discussion and negotiation within N.A.T.O. since 1950. At the present time, the military authorities of N.A.T.O. are considering what active steps can be taken to realise this concept of mutual support, which could provide substantial economic and military advantages".
  That is the view of the Council of Ministers, which went on to say:
  "When nations are obliged to commit their naval forces for national responsibilities in

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  peace the problem of a national balance of forces arises. The adjustment between a national balance of naval forces and of balance of collective forces in the N.A.T.O. sense becomes … a predominantly political matter."
  I could deal at great length with what is meant by that reply, but I do not intend to do so. The Committee will be seized of its meaning.
  What is clear is that discussions on the matter have been going on for the past ten years and nothing has been done. Nothing has been done in a direction which offers great economic advantages as well as adding to efficiency, and this despite the declared policy of the British Government, which could play an important part in having this done.
  Therefore, my question to the Civil Lord is to ask how far the attitude of the Admiralty and its influence prevents the necessary action being taken because the political decision has already been taken. I ask this because it seems to me that this White Paper from the Admiralty is full of complacency, smugness and self-satisfaction. It gives me the impression of a sense of glee and satisfaction that the Admiralty has escaped the shackles which the present Minister of Aviation had tried to put around it.
  When we read this document, one feels that N.A.T.O. hardly exists, except in the Appendix, which, in the view of the Admiralty, is probably the place to put it. One gets the impression that what the Admiralty has in mind is a self-contained Navy isolated, proud and independent, except, of course, for the map at the back, which shows where all the Navy's ships have been going during the past year. It rather makes me feel that the Admiralty is a better tourist agency than Thos. Cook & Son, Ltd.
  Under the heading "Twenty years of change", the Explanatory Statement tells us, on page 9, that
  "The Navy must always keep abreast of technical advances affecting sea welfare".
  That is the kind of statement of the obvious which is characteristic of the Explanatory Statements. This one continues:
  "the quality of its ships, aircraft, and weapons must match that of the other principal navies
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  of the world. That is the basis of Admiralty policy, and the test in peacetime of its success is a comparison with what other navies have."
  Clearly, the interpretation and inference is that the Admiralty must have the lot. Here is the real basis of Admiralty thinking. There is no question here of overall balanced forces with our allies or of thought being given to what our contribution might be towards achieving that and what would be our best contribution. The evidence here is that the Admiralty is determined to stick to its own conception and wants no interference. Its objective is to get as many ships as it can without regard to how they will be used or what purpose they serve.
  This year's White Paper on Defence states quite clearly that in this third year of the five-year plan, the Government's broad defence policy has undergone no major change. What assurance can we have that the policy outlined in paragraph 46 of the 1958 Statement is being pursued vigorously in the Navy? Is there anything the Civil Lord can tell us about it? Have the political decisions been taken, and what, if anything, has been achieved? I take the view that the decisions are still being taken to suit our own national aims, whatever they may be, and that we only advise N.A.T.O. and do not consult it.
  Unless this Committee has some knowledge of these matters and of what N.A.T.O. requirements are and of what is being done about them, we cannot feel qualified to pass a proper judgment. That is one of the things which have come out of this debate. Members have been asking for proper information, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East said, unless we can have a proper picture of what our commitments to N.A.T.O. are and of how our plans fit into them, we cannot say whether we are spending money on the right things, nor whether the sum we are being asked to vote is adequate, or whether it is too much. I dealt with this last year. I hope that someone some time will be able to give us some information on this matter.
  On the question of cost, I hope some of my hon. Friends who have studied economics will help me with a paragraph headed, "The cost of increased capability in terms of cost" on page 9 of the Statement. I do not understand

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  what it means. I suppose there is some answer to it. It says:
  "These are the main factors—complexity, complements, and costs—which, applied to limited resources of manpower and money, condition the task of the Admiralty in maintaining the strength of the operational fleet."
  I accept that. I am glad the Admiralty know about it, but somebody ought to tell them how to spell "resources." If they are thinking as accurately as that, I think we really are in difficulties.
  One of the advantages of being a member of the Defence Committee of W.E.U.—I am sorry that my term of office is coming to a close—is that one finds out things and gets around. We have no machinery in this Parliament of that kind, and I should like to have a defence committee which could do some of the things which were done there. I hope that Members interested in naval matters will take a look at the Mulley Report of June, 1959. I am not referring to my hon. Friend's Report, the last one submitted, which caused some widespread comment. I am talking about the previous one, the one about the Navy, which did not cause so much stir. The Civil Lord, I understand, has not seen it.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: Yes, I have.
  Mr. Steele: Today? It is a great pity, because it is remarkable, and I really cannot understand why a document of this kind is not given to the political members of the Board of Admiralty. Members who are interested in naval matters ought to read it. It was adopted by the Assembly of Western European Union, in the Fifth Ordinary Session, June, 1959.
  I should like to say something about the command structure of SACEUR. There are many other things in the Report and the recommendations which have been mentioned today, particularly by the hon. and gallant Member for Horncastle. I think the command structure of SACEUR is understood, although it may not be generally appreciated that he has some naval responsibilities as well. But I do not think that the naval command structure is understood or appreciated. I have no intention of outlining what it is. Those hon. Members who were able to understand
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  the Town and Country Planning Act might apply their minds to it and in the end understand how it works, but the task would be very difficult.
  The Western European Union Defence Committee looked at the structure. What was clear to our Committee, and what we say in our Report, is that it is not designed to suit or serve either military or naval needs, nor does it ensure the most economical or effective methods of operation. Its basic weakness, as pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East, is that it had been designed to suit political feelings and national prestige. Furthermore, everyone we talked to agreed that it was wrong and felt that something should be done about it, but nothing has been done.
  Here again, my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Park and I thought we might be helpful at W.E.U. Embodied in the document which I have already mentioned was another Resolution, which said:
  "That the Command structure with respect to the Atlantic area, the Channel, the North Sea, the Baltic Sea and the Mediterranean be re-examined urgently with a view to its revision and the removal of the weaknesses disclosed by the Committee's inspection and set out in its report."
  This Recommendation was made to the Council of Ministers.
  The Committee will be interested to learn that the reply received from the Council was that
  "The military authorities of N.A.T.O. have had under review for several years the N.A.T.O. naval command structure, with a view to enhancing its effectiveness. The principal difficulties lie in adjusting the national interests in the areas concerned with the requirements of the Alliance."
  That was the wisdom we got from the Council of Ministers.
  I am sure the Committee will agree that this problem, along with many others, will not be settled in the period of four minutes' warning which we shall receive of the arrival of guided missiles. It may be that if the missiles come the problems will not require to be solved. There will be no problems if the commands have gone out of existence. But if we are finding money for all this structure to exist, we have the right to ask that it is used not only economically but efficiently.

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  If we are one of the principal countries where national prestige is affecting the issue, is nothing being done, or can nothing be done about it? This is not something for which more money is required. It is an area in which economy can be obtained. More important, while the economy itself might not be substantial, efficiency would certainly be improved.
  If some of the Tory back benchers had to apply their minds to this problem, rather than to the reorganisation of our railways, which are being and have been reorganised during the long period in which I have been associated with them, they would be much more profitably engaged for the country, though perhaps not more profitably engaged for some of the things which they want to do.
  My interest in the Navy over the past few years has deepened my respect for its traditions and increased my admiration for those who serve in it. Many tributes have been and will be paid to their devotion to duty and the manner in which they carry out the tasks which they have to perform. But we should be failing in our duty to them and to the taxpayers, who, after all, have to foot the bill, unless we can get not only assurances but evidence from the Government that the money we are voting is being used wisely in order to get full efficiency.
  11.20 p.m.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: We have had our usual good natured debate which has ranged over a fairly wide field. What is typical about debates on the Navy is the wide measure of support even from those hon. Members who tendered some criticisms of the Navy as a whole. In winding up the debate it is my task to try to pick out some of the themes of speeches by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee and to deal with other important points. If I cannot deal with all the matters which have been raised, and obviously, I cannot, I, or my noble Friend will write to those hon. Members concerned.
  The first point was raised by two hon. Members opposite who have been junior Ministers at the Admiralty, the hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. W. Edwards) and the right hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale). I observe
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  that the hon. Member for Stepney is at present renewing acquaintanceship with several old friends. They asked whether the combined job of Civil Lord ond Parliamentary and Financial Secretary was too big a load and what were the responsibilities. My noble Friend has asked me to retain the chairmanship of the Finance Committee and undertake the task of answering in the House, the chairmanship of the Admiralty Industrial Council and in fact all political work, particularly the answering of letters from hon. Members on constituency points.
  I do not think it is too much of a hardship to have both to open and to wind up the debate. A number of hon. Gentlemen opposite have done the same. I remember that when the noble Lord Lord De L'Isle and Dudley was Secretary of State and in another place, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air, who was then the Under Secretary, had to introduce the Air Estimates, and as at that time we had the archaic form of an intervening Motion, to speak to that, and afterwards to wind up the debate on the Air Estimates. So I have 50 per cent. less load than he had. The hon. Member for Stepney asked about the Civil Engineering—
  Mr. Dugdale: The hon. Gentleman said that he would answer some of the letters from hon. Members. Surely he will answer them all?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I shall answer the great majority of the letters, but on policy points hon. Members may sometimes like to write to my noble Friend, who is listening to this debate.
  The hon. Member for Stepney asked about the Civil Engineer in Chief. He is now called the Director General, Navy Works, and has a slightly bigger job than he had when the hon. Gentleman was in office. As will be seen from the Estimates, he has all of Vote 10 and also mechanical and electrical engineering work outside the dockyards. It is interesting to note that we have reverted to a title which used to exist, as he used to be called the Director of Navy Works.
  The hon. Gentleman was worried about the balance of the Board of Admiralty. It is true that there is one less politician, although I do not think that significant, and there is also one less Sea Lord. We have dispensed with

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  the Fifth Sea Lord, or rather we have amalgamated that office with the D.C.N.S.
  Mr. W. Edwards: I was comparing the Estimates last year with those of this year. It may be the case that the hon. Gentleman does not care that there is one politician less on the Board but the fact remains that there is still the same number of naval members.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I was comparing it, as I thought the hon. Member was, with when he was at the Board of Admiralty—
  Mr. Edwards: No, with last year.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: It must be remembered that the First Lord is also a politician on the Board of Admiralty and also there is the Secretary, who is the doyen of secretaries in Whitehall and has helped seven First Lords and ten different junior Ministers. A load of wisdom comes from that source which my noble Friend and myself deeply appreciate.
  Mr. Edwards: Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I am perfectly satisfied that it is not necessary to have three politicians at the head of the Navy when both the other Services, with a much larger Vote A, have managed with two politicians. As every other politician has no doubt said, and as hon. Members will confirm, we are well served by a very efficient and helpful staff. The only plea I have to make—perhaps it is not appropriate to this debate and may be more appropriate when we debate the question of the accommodation of the House—is that someone should do something about air conditioning in this Chamber when one has both to open and close a debate. The hon. Member, I believe, is worried about the lighting. Perhaps both those matters could be considered together.
  The hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, West (Mr. Steele), who normally opens our debate, has taken the reverse position on this occasion. I was surprised to hear him criticise the report we present. The general opinion was that my noble Friend's Memorandum this year was very much brighter, better set out and more striking. What we are doing is to try to show that there is a
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  need for the Navy and to undo the work of those few people who say there is no need for a Navy.
  Mr. Steele: I am glad the hon. Gentleman has allowed me to interrupt to put this in its correct perspective. I was not complaining about the report in that sense; in fact, I complimented him on various aspects of it. What I was complaining about, as my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis), and I think some hon. Members opposite complained, was not what was in the Report, but what was not in it.
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: One cannot include everything. It was pointed out that some items were not in the headlines, but we cannot make every item a headline or the report would become unreadable.
  The whole theme of my opening speech was Commonwealth co-operation and N.A.T.O. co-operation. I tried to underline that we were geared to it and my noble Friend had listed the value to the alliance of the present-day Navy. I am sorry I cannot follow the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, West into the N.A.T.O. organisational side and the command structure. That is not my responsibility, but the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence. In many ways I think that would be more appropriate to a defence debate because SACEUR covers a wider field than the Admiralty and the responsibility does not rest entirely with me.
  Mr. Willis: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves that point, could he let us know that he will put these criticisms before the Minister of Defence, because there have been requests from both sides of the Committee for this information?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: Of course, I shall draw the attention of my right hon. Friend to the points which have been made by several hon. Members.
  The right hon. Member for West Bromwich said that the Estimates showed that a pitifully small staff was concentrating on undersea warfare. The figures he was looking at were those of the Naval Staff. There it is true there are only fourteen, but, under the Director-General of Weapons, there is a staff of between 80 and 100.

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  There is also, of course, H.M.S. "Vernon" and the Underwater Establishment at Portsmouth dealing with these problems. There has been a great deal of criticism about personnel, but my noble Friend and I are not complacent about this matter. There has been an overall reduction of 12 per cent. since 1952–3. That is no mean achievement.
  There are various factors which offset our efforts to economise. I mentioned one, which was the staff of "Dreadnought". The fact is that we have on our design staff—and I cover design staff in its broadest terms—3,000 people shown on the strength of the Admiralty. They include designers, draughtsmen, and other people concerned with the design, production and supervision of shipbuilding. Considerable economies have been effected to allow for the rise in this sort of staff, and we still show a reduction of 1,250 since 1952.
  One of the aspects where an increase has been shown is for the work study department. Another is the lower deck widows' pensions department which did not exist a few years ago. We have twenty people there. The married quarters' department, which did not exist at the Admiralty many years ago, employs twenty people. These are a reflection of the new shape of the Navy.
  We have recently set up a new committee to look at both naval and civilian numbers in the Admiralty, and we now have the searchlight of the Select Committee on Estimates also examining the Admiralty. I have no doubt that self-examination, and examination from outside, will contribute to our desire to see that the Admiralty staff is used as economically and efficiently as possible.
  Another theme that ran through the debate was the request for more information. This was raised by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Willis), my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Miss Vickers), my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) and by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for The Hartlepools (Commander Kerans).
  The value of a debate like this rests on well-informed Parliamentary opinion about naval matters. It is clear that after the war many of us came into the House
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  with first-hand knowledge of the Services but that that capital which we brought in has been slowly declining and we have been getting more and more out of date. I am sure that back benchers must feel this, and the result of the recent election was encouraging in that it brought in many new hon. Members with fresh information about the Services. I support what my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence said. We believe that it is essential to keep Parliament as well informed as we can. If we can further and help that tendency by way of visits, we are determined to do so.
  I thought that my noble Friend's Explanatory Statement was a full one. I am able to announce one further improvement in this direction. Until recently it has not been our practice to make a public announcement when the keel of a new ship is laid, although there have been a few exceptions to the rule. We feel that this is carrying security to unnecessary limits, and from now on we will announce the laying down of a keel, giving the type, class and name of the ship, the name of the builders, and the name of the machinery contractors. We shall continue to give publicity to the launching of new ships, and this will be another occasion when I have no doubt that further information will be given about when the ship can be expected to be in commission. When the ship is launched there will be a third opportunity for making public the manner in which we are replacing ships. I hope that this will be accepted as another sign of our anxiety to meet the criticisms which have been made.
  We are examining other methods of improving publicity. My noble Friend and I would be glad to receive suggestions from hon. Members. We will examine those suggestions which have been made during the debate. I know something of the United States Congress procedure in this matter and the very extensive library service it provides. I do not think that it would be easy to provide a comparable service, but other suggestions will be considered.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for The Hartlepools asked whether we could publish the position of ships at sea. I think that would be unwise. After all, we must make the enemy's intelligence work for its living. It would

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  not be wise to publish this list at given intervals throughout the year, but we will examine the suggestion to see whether it could be done once a year in the Explanatory Statement which would tell Parliament and the country what was happening.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Devonport asked about the load in the dockyards. I assure her that the main task of our dockyards—this also concerns my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West (Brigadier Clarke)—is the repairing and modification of our ships. This is the main task, but we realise that in a dockyard, if the personnel are to be kept fully conversant with the latest techniques and the apprentices are to be given something worth while to bite on, they cannot be given only old ships to modify. They must be given an element of new ships. Without being precise, about 10 per cent. of new construction will continue to be fed to the dockyards in order to help them with the newer and latest techniques. We at present have about that percentage.
  I do not visualise a large reduction in our dockyards. It is impossible to say, looking many years ahead when one cannot forecast the size of the fleet exactly, how many people will be wanted. I do not expect there to be redundancy. If there is a rundown, it will normally be done by age retirement and normal wastage. Perhaps I can summarise that by saying that there is a tremendous job for our dockyards to do. We think that they will match up to the task, and we will certainly consider the other points which both my hon. Friends mentioned.
  We came under some criticism from the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East about our reversal concerning Chatham Barracks. I agree that it is a reversal, but if one is to be responsible one must have the courage to come to the House of Commons and say, "Circumstances have changed. We have to refit some live ships at Chatham. We find that this is absolutely essential and, therefore, it is sensible and economical not to give those naval barracks to the Army and to move our Supply School to Devon-port, but to stay where we are and occupy the greater part of those barracks."
  Mr. Willis rose—
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: I must continue, because it is very late.
  Mr. Willis: This is a very important matter. What has happened about the accommodation at H.M.S. "Colling-wood" which was being kept for the Admiralty?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: We are taking that matter into consideration, but the Supply School comprises 500 people. We visualise that the absolute peak load might reach 1,000, or perhaps even 1,300, outside that from ships, fleet maintenance parties and other organisations. The hon. Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Critchley) gave me a message from the Mayor of Chatham saying how absolutely delighted they were that we were keeping this organisation.
  I can re-assure the Committee that my noble Friend and I are determined that this is not going to become a snowball or a rest-house for manpower. We shall not restore—there is no question about it—the post of Commander-in-Chief, the Nore, and we shall do everything we reasonably can to keep these numbers down to the absolute minimum. As I underlined in my opening speech, sailors are expensive people and if they are not doing very useful work they should not be sitting in barracks in their off hours. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East made the explosive suggestion that we should blow the barracks up. I would not go all the way with him on that.
  I should like to make one announcement. The peace-time responsibility for the existing area of the Command will be divided between the Commander-in-Chief, Portsmouth and the Flag Officer, Scotland. The dividing line will be the Wash. The Admiral Superintendent at Chatham Dockyard will assume the additional rôle of Local Flag Officer, and we shall call him Flag Officer, Medway, in order to maintain the naval tradition of the Medway which has always existed. That is no extra person. It is just an additional title which will be carried.
  I am sorry that I cannot yet announce the future of Stonehouse Barracks about which my hon. Friend the Member for Devonport asked me.

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  The hon. Member for Edinburgh, East asked me about the Crust Report. I concede that it has taken a long time on the lower deck structure, but the Committee has reported. We have considered the matter at Board level. We have made our decision. Now the exact manner in which the decision should be applied is being worked out. It will not be long now before announcements are made.
  We came under some criticism also from my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East and the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East about the sea-shore ratio. Again, my noble Friend and I do not wish to appear to be complacent about this, but I think that one must face the fact that, with a highly complex and technical fleet, there simply must be a number of technical establishments and the manpower must be returned to those establishments for refresher training to bring them up to date with the latest equipment before a new ship is commissioned or before they change to different types of ships. Although we will strain to see that the ratio is improved, I do not expect to see very startling results in that direction.
  Various figures were mentioned. I think the truest yardstick is given by considering the General Service naval personnel only, and the proportion at sea over the next few years is likely to be 45 per cent. This is much the same as in recent years. On the whole, the General Service personnel may expect to spend half their life at sea. The Royal Naval Marines are outside the field; only 8 per cent. are afloat. The Fleet Air Arm are also outside the field, and only 21 per cent. are afloat. The term "afloat" includes the list in Category "B" and also Category "C." I would mention that H.M.S. "Tyne ", which is now in Agadir, is in Category "C," and it would be unfair if it were not included. However, it is not intended to include the Reserve Fleet.
  My hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard) stressed that if Polaris was adopted we ought to try to get it under lend-lease. This is a most interesting view, slightly hypothetical at this moment, but we will certainly note the view which he expressed.
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  My hon. Friend also asked whether we ought not to undertake more rigorous work study in the Admiralty. Work study at the Admiralty is done by O and M, as in other Government Departments. It does not mean that it is less effective. Many people are helping us in our work to cut down the Admiralty staff.
  Our cruisers came under criticism, and I was asked if they had been purposely left out from the headlines in my noble Friend's Explanatory Statement. They were not purposely left out. We feel that they have a very useful part to play. It is not only that they are long-legged; they have got considerable endurance. Also they have extra command facilities as well as extra signal facilities which go with those command facilities. We were criticised for going ahead with them. We should not overlook the fact that a few years ago the Sverdlov cruisers were regarded as a considerable menace should they come out from Russian waters and start to prey on our shipping lines in a conventional or a limited war, without consideration of nuclear matters. We arc fortunate in having three modern cruisers, and I know they are going to carry their weight in the fleet.
  On the question of N.A.T.O., I ought to make it clear that in the event of war something like 85 per cent. of the strength of the Royal Navy would be available to the supreme commanders. That is a very considerable total. In order to achieve the highest degree of co-ordination between the various N.A.T.O. Powers, exercises are held, and in the coming year thirty exercises will be held with our N.A.T.O. allies.
  Mr. Steele: Could we have some information about what happens at these exercises and how satisfied the Command is with them?
  Mr. Orr-Ewing: My noble Friend and I will certainly consider whether special arrangements could be made for one or two selected Members who are interested to attend the "wash up" after these exercises. There are the immediate and later "wash-ups", both of which I have attended and they are of considerable interest. Perhaps we could approach that matter along the lines which I have earlier suggested.

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  My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence during the defence debate referred to the pamphlet of the Institute of Strategic Studies and the balance in forces likely to be deployed by N.A.T.O. He was talking of ground forces. He admitted that the pamphlet was reasonably accurate, and I would say that the pamphlet so far as it concerns naval forces is reasonably accurate. This pamphlet shows that SACLANT is likely to have 450 surface ships and 150 submarines available in war time for antisubmarine purposes. That represents a considerable force. I shall draw my right hon. Friend's attention to the other criticisms which were made.
  The hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Dr. King) and the hon. and gallant Member for Harrow, East (Commander Courtney) referred to officer recruitment, and I am grateful for the statesmanlike and helpful remarks by both of them. I cannot, however, go all the way in the remarks about the need for us to introduce an "eleven-plus" or an entry at thirteen. We have introduced the Dartmouth scheme, and raised the standards to two "A" levels; and it is interesting to note that the Royal Air Force has raised its standards for Cranwell to the same level. I have to admit that the arguments tended to be very persuasive, but I suggest to the Committee that one should not start looking over one's shoulder with, perhaps, the idea of introducing another system of "eleven-plus." One could ask, "Why should the Royal Navy go in for this while the other Services have an entry at 18 and scholarships at 16?". We shall not shut our minds to these suggestions, but I must tell hon. Members that we are determined to go flat out to attract the right boys from the right type of schools to fill Dartmouth as it should be filled.
  The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Brigg (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu) asked why there were fewer Commonwealth students going to Dartmouth. I agree that there is a small decrease in the numbers, but this should not be taken as indicating a trend. We are most anxious to have these students. It is a unifying quality of the Commonwealth navies that so many of the officers were Dartmouth educated and brought up, and we welcome Commonwealth officers there.
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  The hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) welcomed the introduction of competitive tendering, and I am glad to have his assurance; I am sure that the shipping firms will match up to what is expected of them.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Horncastle (Commander Maitland) dealt with two points to which I shall have to draw the attention of the Minister of Transport; that is, fall-out and emergency ports. The Royal Navy has a responsibility for fall-out and how it should be dealt with, but the application of our advice to merchant ships is a Ministry of Transport responsibility; and the same applies to what my hon. and gallant Friend said about emergency ports. I assure him that these matters will be brought to the attention of the Minister of Transport.
  I was asked about LTAs and similar craft. We are fitting out the first two, LSTs and LCTs, and have built a score of new LCAs in the last few years, so I hope that that will assure hon. Members that we are tackling this problem of landing craft.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West raised the question of dilutees; and especially, I think, dilutee-fitters. Any hon. Member who has served in the Service departments—and I know this from my own previous experience—will know that there is a solemn agreement, made in war-time, with the A.E.U. and that no formula has so far been found for making a change. I cannot give much hope that we shall be able to make a change in this procedure, and I am afraid that I cannot go further than that tonight.
  Next, I was asked about storehouse men, and perhaps I could write to my hon. and gallant Friend on that point. I would point out that in the stores field the Admiralty procedure is not identical with the procedure elsewhere and, therefore, one cannot draw an exact parallel by reference to the non-industrial officer grades in other Departments. I will, however, write to him to try to explain the exact position.
  I was also asked about the widows of 1950, and the Committee will be aware that this matter has been raised on a number of occasions. It is a

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  general issue, and one cannot select just one Service. We cannot say that these Service widows will be given special priority.
  The Act dated from 1950. We all know the hardship of those who fall on the wrong side of the dateline, but a new piece of legislation has to be started somewhere and, fortunately the country and the Government have now seen fit to look after the widows of lower deck seamen, airmen and soldiers.
  That brings me to the last point, which is worth considering because a number of hon. Members from both sides of the Committee have asked about it—the rôle of the Navy. My noble Friend considered most carefully whether to republish a statement this year. There are some disadvantages in going on sowing doubt on this matter and I do not think that I can do better than restate the 1958 Defence White Paper which we sometimes forget and which clearly set out the rôle of the Navy as:
  "In peacetime, to help to carry out Britain's responsibilities in colonies and protected territories, to defend British shipping, and generally to contribute by H.M. Ships' presence to the maintenance of peace and stability;
  "in limited war, to protect sea communications, to escort troops and supplies to the theatre of operations and give them support in action;
  "in global war, to make an effective contribution to the combined naval forces of the Western Alliance."
  I associate myself with the many hon. Members who have said that we sincerely hope that an effective controlled disarmament agreement will be reached, but, in the meantime, we must carry on and, by the tasks of the Royal Navy in peace, contribute to the stability of the free world. We shall continue to do that. I hope that hon. Members will agree that we have tried to set out clearly and objectively what fleet we have today. I am convinced that the men and women who serve the Navy, whether civilian or uniformed, will carry on with the great tradition which the Navy has built up over many centuries.
  11.52 p.m.
  Mr. George Brown: I have listened to much of the debate and to the Civil Lord twice. There is one thing about it which strikes me and which I
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  mention in the hope that it will strike a chord with the hon. and gallant Gentlemen opposite. That was the Civil Lord's attempt at the end of the day to state the rôle of the Royal Navy, a question which is not faced in the Explanatory Statement and which was not faced in the Defence White Paper. It was a gallant, but pathetic attempt. Let us put it on the record that it is time that somebody, genuinely and not in cliches and bromides such as the hon. Gentleman used, set out to tell us what he thinks the rôle of the Navy should be.
  Had there been a change of Government at the last election, rightly or wrongly, that question would have been answered. The pathetic thing is—
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing rose—
  Mr. Brown: No, I have only just begun and I heard the hon. Gentleman without interruption
  We would have answered the question —[HON. MEMBERS: "How?"]—I will tell hon. Gentlemen how—[HON. MEMBERS: "Which train do you catch?"]— Is it not peculiar that hon. and gallant Gentlemen opposite will not listen? They are not interested when their own Government fail to deal with the one issue which matters. [Interruption] They are very good at pointing their fingers, but at the end of the day nobody knows what rôle is envisaged for the Navy. It has the rôle of delivering the deterrent, but the Government will not commit themselves to that. It has the rôle of delivering men and their equipment, but the Government will not commit themselves to that. Hon. and gallant Gentlemen opposite have acquiesced in permitting the most pathetic answers to detailed questions which have had nothing to do with Navy policy. We have had the First Lord of the Admiralty in the Gallery—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order."]— and when he goes to a ship he is not even recognised. His private secretary is piped aboard in his place.
  Mr. G. R. Howard rose—
  Mr. Brown: This is a Government whose First Lord is not recognized. The sailors do not know their own political chief. Their own political chief has no policy. The Government are unable to imprint their policy upon their colleagues.

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  There has been no attempt to establish the rôle of the Navy and no attempt to answer what the aircraft requirements of the Navy are. The failure to get the NA39, the failure to get it into performance, the failure to get it in service, the failure to persuade the Air Force—[HON. MEMBERS: "Vote"]—there will be no vote. The Labour Party does not vote against the Estimates. [Interruption.]
  The giggling performance of hon. and gallant Members opposite does them no credit. They did this to the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) before the war. That was how they saw him off. They giggled at him. I merely got up, since the Civil Lord allowed me ten minutes, to put this on the record, and giggles do not go on the record.
  There is 110 policy. There is no r61e established. There are no political Ministers whom sailors would recognise. There are no ships that would fit any policy. Tory Members may have all the fun they like late at night. Let me say, and say it sincerely, as one who believes—[Interruption.] That is easy to laugh at. As one who would have seen to the defences of the country had he the power, let me put it on record that were I sitting on the Government benches now, had I listened to today's debate I should now be hiding my head in shame.
  Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: I suggest to the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) that he keeps his political speeches for the week-ends and makes them on the future of the Labour Party. I am glad that he was able to listen to the opening and closing of the debate, but he certainly did not sit throughout the debate. I was fortunate enough to hear every speech, with the exception of forty minutes I took off, during the eight and a half hours.
  I assure the right hon. Gentleman that had I been asked those points earlier, I would have tried to deal with them. One cannot answer succinctly eight and a half hours' debate in half an hour without leaving some points out. In general, however, I dealt with the points which my hon. Friends and many hon. Members opposite raised, but at the moment I see only one back bencher sitting on the Opposition side of the Committee.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That 102,000 Officers, Seamen and Juniors and Royal Marines, who are borne on the books of Her Majesty's Ships and at the Royal Marine establishments, and members of the Women's Royal Naval Service and Queen Alexandra's Royal Naval Nursing Service, be employed for the Sea Service, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1961.
  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow; Committee to sit again Tomorrow.

  HEALTH AND WELFARE FUNCTIONS, WORTHING
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Whitelaw.]
  12 midnight.
  Brigadier Sir Otho Prior-Palmer: I wish to raise the question of delegation of health and welfare functions mentioned in the Local Government Act, 1958, as it affects my constituency. I do not want to waste time with the whole history of this case, save to say that a year ago Worthing Borough Council applied for Ministerial consent to include in a delegation scheme those functions mentioned in paragraphs (f) and (g) of Section 46 (1). Recently the Minister gave his decision against the Borough of Worthing. Incidentally, it took him a whole year to reach this decision. Does it really take all that time to go into a matter such as this? The mills of the Civil Service do indeed grind slowly.
  I was then approached by the Worthing Borough Council and asked whether I would table certain Questions. I was so incensed at the Minister's decision that I decided on stronger action. I decided that first of all I would see the Minister personally, if he would see me, in order to try to make him change his mind, and secondly, if that failed, that I would raise this matter on the Adjournment so that a full discussion could be had and specific questions which I did not table could be answered more fully.
  I had a long talk with the Minister. I put the case as strongly as I possibly could, and I added many things, which I have not time to mention in this speech, relevant to the whole question of the Government's attitude towards the old people and people living on fixed incomes. I can assure the House that I did not pull my punches. As a result of that meeting with the Minister, he promised to have a look at the whole thing again. It is not an easy matter after a whole year's discussion to get a Minister even to say that he will look at the thing again, and I was very grateful to him for having done so, but I want to say quite emphatically that it was always my intention to do this and, if that failed, it was my intention to raise the matter on the Adjournment, and that
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  I am not bowing to any pressure of any sort from anybody in doing this tonight.
  I wrote two letters to this effect to my council, one stating that I was going to see the Minister in an attempt to make him change his mind, and the second saying that I was going to raise the matter on the Adjournment. For some reason the council was not informed of my second letter. Had it been so informed I dare say some of the criticism to which I was subjected might have been avoided.
  However, the case is a very simple one. There is a crying need for accommodation for old people in Worthing: a crying need. This need has not been met adequately. Here I should like to pay a tribute to the work of the Council of Social Service in Worthing for what it has done in this direction. The Act states that there must be exceptional circumstances before consent can be given. I propose to try to show that those exceptional circumstances do in fact exist.
  Firstly, the population of Worthing is 74,000, well above 60,000, the statutory limit. Secondly, in ten years the county council has not built one single home for old people under Part III of the National Assistance Act, despite continual and urgent representations. True, seven places have been built or adapted outside the borough in various outlying country districts and villages for old people, but when people reach this age they dislike being uprooted and sent into remote areas. Preston and Lancing have been cited, I believe, as what the county council has done. I can assure the House that that does not alleviate the situation in the slightest degree. Lancing is three or four miles outside the borough, but the old people I am talking of have all their roots, all their ties, and have spent the whole of their lives, inside Worthing, and they dislike intensely the idea of being moved outside of Worthing.
  Thirdly, and this is the main point, the average in England and Wales of people over pensionable age is 13·7 per cent. The average in Worthing is 29·6 per cent., or more than double. That is why I said that there is a crying need for old people's homes in Worthing.
  I do not know whether my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the

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  Ministry of Health realises the plight of some of these old people. I wonder whether she knows how many have been found dead in their beds, sometimes after being there for days before being discovered, because there had been nobody to care for them. There is serious need for this sort of accommodation in Worthing, and if these circumstances are not exceptional, then what in the name of reason are?
  I am not in the least concerned with any other aspect of this matter. To what extent it may have an effect on the future county borough status of Worthing cuts no ice at all with me. I am anxious only to see that this growing need is met. It is not conducive of confidence if Ministers in speeches inside and outside the House promise greater freedom to the local authorities and then by administrative action withhold it. I refer in particular to the speech of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government at Edinburgh in 1957. It may be that the trouble arises by virtue of the fact that a Minister introduces a Bill and then a totally different Minister in another Ministry has to administer part of the Act and does not feel bound by his colleague's promises.
  As to the specific questions which I was invited to table—if that is the right expression—we know now that eleven district councils made similar applications and that only two were granted these functions. One was in Wales. The other was the town of Luton, but as that town is to become a county borough that does not cut much ice. That is one question which I am answering on my hon. Friend's behalf. The other question, to which I should like to have an answer, is: how many applications are still to be dealt with in respect of large towns? I have also the 100-dollar question to which I hope my hon. Friend will be able to give a perfectly clear answer, not only for our sake but for the sake of her Minister and herself, so that money and time shall not be wasted on applications such as this. I ask her to make clear what are the exceptional circumstances which the Act and the Minister demand before consent can be given. I believe that it is my hon. Friend's duty to the other boroughs as well as my own to give that answer clearly and concisely.
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  Someone I know told me that someone else had said that I was afraid to criticise the Government. All I can say about that is that the person's knowledge does not match his loquacity. I do not believe that I have delivered a speech in the House since I have been a Member which has not criticised Government policy in some form or another. As to timorousness, I leave others to judge.
  I shall be raising another matter on another occasion and I give my hon. Friend due warning. It is the question of accommodation in Worthing Hospital. It also affects old people. I cannot, and have not the time to, go into that in detail tonight. I say only that at the end of September there were 1,331 people waiting for admission to beds in Worthing Hospital. I believe that the Minister has been very dilatory in attempting to relieve this desperate situation.
  The situation of the old and the sick in Worthing demands immediate Government action. I appeal to the Minister, to the hon. Lady and to any other Minister who has power in these matters, to ensure that this situation does not continue any longer.
  12.10 a.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Edith Pitt): First, even though he has kept me here until this late hour, may I congratulate my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Worthing (Sir O. Prior-Palmer) on his pertinacity in pursuing this subject? His constituents should be grateful to him for the endeavours he has made to make their views known.
  The background to this matter is that the Local Government Act, 1958, made provision for the delegation, on certain conditions, to county district authorities of health and welfare functions under Section 46 (1) paragraphs (a) to (e) and, subject to further conditions, functions relating to the provision of residential accommodation for the aged and others in need of care, and for the mentally ill, could be provided under the additional paragraphs (f) and (g) with which the hon. and gallant Gentleman is concerned tonight.
  Functions under paragraphs (a) and (e) were to be given by means of schemes,

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  which had to be approved by the Minister, by boroughs or urban district councils with a population of 60,000 or more at 30th June, 1957. For rural districts of whatever size and other district councils with a population of less than 60,000 the Act provides that they can apply for Ministerial consent for schemes of delegation of health and welfare functions. Consent is given only if the Minister is satisfied that special circumstances justify it. Any local authority making a delegation scheme regarding the exercise of additional residential functions had to apply for Ministerial consent. This consent would be given after consultation with the county council only if there were exceptional circumstances to justify it.
  There were nineteen local authorities in England with a population of 60,000 or more, and one in Wales, automatically entitled to make schemes of delegation of health and welfare functions. Of these, two decided not to make schemes, and eleven of the remaining eighteen applied for Ministerial consent to include in their schemes additional residential functions for old people and the mentally ill. Of these eleven, Worthing Borough was one. All the applications were rejected except those of Luton Borough, with a population of 115,900, and Rhondda Borough with a population of 106,400. The decision to reject all the applications with the exception of those two was made on the assessment that there were no exceptional circumstances. In the other nine cases, therefore, the Minister was precluded under Section 46 (2) of the Act from giving his consent.
  The exceptional circumstance held to justify the Minister approving the applications from Luton and Rhondda Boroughs were that in each case the population was over 100,000, and Section 34 of the Act provided that:
  "In so far as the question of the constitution of a new county borough is affected by considerations of population, the Commission and the Minister shall presume that a population of one hundred thousand is sufficient to support the discharge of the functions of a county borough council."
  As such, of course, it would become a local health and welfare authority and discharge all the functions mentioned in Section 46 (1) of the Act, paragraphs (a) to (g). Irrespective of the number of aged or mentally ill persons in such a town, the population of over 100,000
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  was clearly a strong argument against the rejection of a claim to provide residential accommodation for those categories of persons.
  In considering the applications for the additional functions, mentioned in (f) and (g) from towns with a population of less than 100,000 but more than 60,000, the problem was to assess whether in any particular case there were exceptional circumstances and whether the authority would be able to provide an efficient and economical service, without undue administrative and financial strain on the county council services. The Act does not define special circumstances nor exceptional circumstances and although for the former paragraph 13 of the White Paper, Command 161, issued at an earlier date, indicates that the self-contained town at some distance from other towns with a population not far short of 60,000 might be given permission to make a delegation scheme, no indication is given there or elsewhere of what might constitute exceptional circumstances. It is clear that these should at least be circumstances which were not generally applicable to authorities within the population range of 60,000 to 100,000.
  The reason why the additional functions of (f) and (g) were not delegated in the same manner as the other health and welfare functions was that experience shows that a large catchment area is necessary for the number of old or mentally ill persons required to provide economically a variety of residential accommodation for different categories of patient. Residential accommodation provided for these purposes by the county council is better planned on a county basis.
  Circumstances which the Ministry held to strengthen an application for delegation to a county district council were the existence in the town of enough elderly persons who required this service to enable residential accommodation to be occupied solely by town residents and the availability of additional accommodation for county cases to avoid disruption of the county services. Worthing Borough, with a population of 74,550 at mid-1958 and therefore automatically entitled to make a delegation scheme, applied in 1959 for inclusion of residential functions (f) and (g). My hon. and gallant Friend

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  was a little critical of the fact that the proceedings took a whole year. I would remind him that after the application from the county district, we in turn had to invite them to state reasons why they felt they could provide the (f) and (g) functions and having received their reasons, we had to consult the other interests. If I remember the papers correctly, and I read them several times, that occupied the best part of a year.
  The council's case when put to us was based on the high proportion of aged persons in Worthing and the scarcity of accommodation provided by the county council. The council claimed that the percentage of persons of pensionable age was more than double the average for England and Wales, as my hon. and gallant Friend repeated tonight. Pensionable age is not defined, but in fact the percentage of persons of 65 and over was a little different from the figures he has given, in Worthing 24·6 per cent., in West Sussex, including Worthing, 17·2 per cent. and in England and Wales 11·2 per cent. The county council had provided no residential accommodation under Part III of the National Assistance Act in Worthing. The nearest was three miles away in Lancing and it accommodated three men and sixteen women. Other Part III accommodation is available in eight other homes with total accommodation for 284 men and 335 women.
  Worthing also stated that there were at least 250 persons in the administrative county on the waiting list for Part III accommodation. Forty of these were residents in Worthing Borough. The Borough had provided accommodation for elderly persons under the Housing Acts. A voluntary organisation, the Worthing Council of Social Service, to which my hon. and gallant Friend paid tribute tonight, had established a home in Worthing for twenty elderly women, another for thirty-one elderly men and women in a higher income group, and was considering a third.
  The council cited the work on a scheme for the care and after-care of mentally ill persons, known as the "Worthing Experiment" which is being carried out by the hospital authorities and the Nuffield Trust. Some of this work would devolve on the borough
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  council under the new Mental Health Act if delegation were granted.
  The Minister sought the West Sussex County Council's views, as he was bound to do. The county council opposed the delegation of both (f) and (g) functions to Worthing Borough Council and said that within a radius of six miles from the centre of Worthing accommodation had been provided toy the county council for 346 persons, to be increased to 367 persons by enlargement of the existing home at Lancing. Eighty-seven former Worthing residents were included in this number.
  The county council had to consider the county as a whole, and it considered that the needs in Worthing Borough were less pressing than in some other parts of the county.
  Sir O. Prior-Palmer: How could it have considered that? The hon. Lady has given figures, and I gave even higher figures. Worthing has a proportion of old people more than twice the average. How could the county council suggest that other parts of the county had greater need? There is no greater need in the whole country.
  Miss Pitt: I take my hon. and gallant Friend's point, but it does not depend entirely on the proportion of old people but on the accommodation available That was the argument which the county council put forward.
  Sir O. Prior-Palmer: No accommodation has been made available.
  Miss Pitt: The council pointed out that there was a county home for the blind in Worthing which it was desirable should remain under county control as only one-third of the residents came from Worthing. There are six voluntary homes providing accommodation for about 200 persons in or very near Worthing, and the county council has entered into arrangements with all these homes and is responsible for maintaining fifty of the residents. In addition, privately-run homes registered under the National Assistance Act accommodate 298 persons.
  It is also possible that many old people not able to manage satisfactorily in their own homes would prefer, and

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  be more suitable for, flats or rooms provided by Worthing as a housing authority, especially if a warden's services were provided.
  Although the county council has specifically drawn the attention of Worthing and other housing authorities in the county to the availability of grant from the county council towards the provision of welfare amenities in buildings specially suited for old people, no application has been made by Worthing. It also pointed out that the "Worthing Experiment" concerns only out-patient treatment and community care whereas function (g) of Section 46 (1) relates to the provision of residential accommodation.
  In arriving at our decision in the Ministry it was decided that the high proportion of elderly persons in Worthing was not in itself an exceptional circumstance which would justify delegation. In Worthing many of these persons were well-to-do retired people who did not require accommodation outside their own homes; many more were able financially to make their own arrangements in private homes. There was no way of estimating precisely the number in each category. There was no other factor in the council's case which justified delegation.
  Under a delegation scheme the county council remains financially responsible for the cost of the service and therefore, even if delegation had been granted, county council approval would have been necessary for any provision of additional accommodation by the borough council. The county council would not be able to give this approval unless the needs in the county as a whole justified this.
  Worthing's assertion that she has a higher proportion of elderly people than the national average is somewhat misleading. There are other towns which have a higher proportion than the national average of 11·2 per cent. Of the ten English authorities with populations of over 60,000 which applied to include the (f) and (g) functions in their schemes, Worthing had the highest proportion though Hove, its near neighbour, and Poole also had a high proportion. From the information available to the Minister, it seemed that the problems of Worthing, Hove and Poole were very comparable.
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  All these applications were rejected, with the exception of that by Luton Borough. After the rejection of Worthing's application, my hon. and gallant Friend came to see the Minister, as he has said tonight, in December, 1959, and he wrote twice to my right hon. and learned Friend to make the views of the authority known. The Minister, in turn, wrote to him on 8th January of this year saying that he had reconsidered the matter and pointing out the need for exceptional circumstances to justify consent to the delegation of these functions.
  Of the four questions posed by Worthing, my hon. and gallant Friend has answered the first two from the information he already has. The answer to the first was eleven, as I explained. The answer to the second was that Luton and Rhondda had been given permission. The answer to the third is that there are no outstanding applications for consent to operate (f) and (g) functions. The answer to the fourth, namely what is exceptional, I hope that I have already explained in what I have said earlier.
  The basis for these decisions as regards the additional residential functions specified in paragraphs (f) and (g) of Section 46 (1), is that the provision of residential accommodation for the elderly, the mentally ill or the homeless needs a large population on which to draw in order to be economical and to justify a variety of types of accommodation. The main concern has been that the residential services for the care of old people, and in future of the mentally ill, shall be administered effectively and economically.
  I have checked with the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and find that Worthing has not so far provided any housing for old people which includes provision for resident wardens to keep an eye on the general well-being of the tenants and to look after communal facilities. My hon. and gallant Friend may like to suggest to the borough council that this is one way the council can contribute to the care of the older members of the population. It is generally agreed to be the most desirable way, because it aims at keeping them in their own homes with such outside care as may be needed to help them to keep the independence they so value.

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  Finally, I assure my hon. and gallant Friend, and through him the Borough which he represents, that this decision was taken only after very careful consideration. It was considered personally by my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister and by my predecessor as Parliamentary Secretary. Then when I came newly to the Ministry last October I went through all the applications, including that of Worthing, and had further consultation with my right hon. and learned Friend. I hope that I have at least assured my hon. and gallant Friend that consideration was given to this matter and that the very strong representations which he made on behalf of the borough were included in
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  the consideration which my right hon. and learned Friend gave to it.
  Sir O. Prior-Palmer: I should like to thank my hon. Friend for the great trouble she has taken in replying to my speech. She has enumerated a large number of facts which we all knew already. I say this to her in the last minute which is left to me—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I cannot resist thanks, but I cannot allow the hon. and gallant Member to make a second speech.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Twelve o'clock.

  ALGERIA (REFUGEES)
  ALGERIA (REFUGEES)
  GERMANY (VICTIMS OF NAZI PERSECUTION)
  GERMANY (VICTIMS OF NAZI PERSECUTION)
  LAW OF THE SEA (GENEVA CONFERENCE)
  LAW OF THE SEA (GENEVA CONFERENCE)
  SPAIN (BRITISH CONSUL, BILBAO)
  SPAIN (BRITISH CONSUL, BILBAO)
EMPLOYMENT
  Disabled Persons, Jarrow and Hebburn
  Disabled Persons, Jarrow and Hebburn
  Factory Inspectors (Qualifications)
  Factory Inspectors (Qualifications)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Attested Herds
  Attested Herds
  Flour
  Flour
  Milk
  Milk
  Pork and Bacon
  Pork and Bacon
  Potatoes (Arsenite Sprays)
  Potatoes (Arsenite Sprays)
  Cattle (Export)
  Cattle (Export)
  Ploughing Grants
  Ploughing Grants
  Fertilisers (Subsidy Schemes)
  Fertilisers (Subsidy Schemes)
  Horticultural Marketing Council (Chairman)
  Horticultural Marketing Council (Chairman)
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  London Airport
  London Airport
  Houses (Displaced Tenants)
  Houses (Displaced Tenants)
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  National Health Service (Superannuation Scheme)
  National Health Service (Superannuation Scheme)
  Drugs and Dressings (Purchase Tax)
  Drugs and Dressings (Purchase Tax)
  Oral Contraceptives
  Oral Contraceptives
  Special Hearing Aids (Children)
  Special Hearing Aids (Children)
  Artificial Limbs
  Artificial Limbs
  National Health Service Spectacles (Hospital Patients)
  National Health Service Spectacles (Hospital Patients)
  Transistor Hearing Aids
  Transistor Hearing Aids
  Diphtheria (Immunisation)
  Diphtheria (Immunisation)
HOSPITALS
  Patients, Mental Hospitals (Release)
  Patients, Mental Hospitals (Release)
  Barnsley
  Barnsley
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Purchase Tax
  Purchase Tax
  Colvilles, Limited (Loan)
  Colvilles, Limited (Loan)
ROYAL NAVY
  Depot, Edingham (Transfer of Land)
  Depot, Edingham (Transfer of Land)
UGANDA
  Health Services (Reports)
  Health Services (Reports)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield
  Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  National Assistance (Disregards)
  National Assistance (Disregards)
MINISTRY OF POWER
  Sheet-Steel Plant, Llanwern (Loan)
  Sheet-Steel Plant, Llanwern (Loan)
ROADS
  Works, Hyde Park Corner (Observation Platform)
  Works, Hyde Park Corner (Observation Platform)
SCOTLAND
  Accountant of Court
  Accountant of Court
  Hospital Building
  Hospital Building
  Adopted Children (Law of Succession)
  Adopted Children (Law of Succession)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Ely
The Lord Inverforth—Took the Oath.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to make further provision for appeals to the House of Lords in criminal cases; to amend the law relating to contempt of court, habeas corpus and certiorari; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, that the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

PORTABLE OIL STOVES
2.36 p.m.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, with the permission of the House, I should like to make a statement on the investigations which have been recently going on into portable oil heaters. A report by the Joint Fire Research Organisation of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Fire Offices' Committee on the effect of draughts on the burning of portable drip-feed radiant oil heaters is being published this afternoon. Copies have been placed in the Printed Paper Office. The main conclusion is that these heaters are safe in a house with the outer doors and windows closed, but that all the heaters of this type tested are capable of starting a fire very quickly if exposed to a draught such as can be caused by an open outer door. Copies of the report have been sent to the Government Departments concerned and to the manufacturers, and
778
immediate consultations will be undertaken with a view to the adoption of a safe standard of performance for the future and of any other measures that may be found desirable and practicable. Meanwhile, it is important that portable oil heaters of the drip-feed radiant type should not be used unless it can be ensured that they are not exposed to a draught.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am sure we are all much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount for the statement he has just made, and we shall agree that the Industrial Research Department has done a very good job on this matter. It seems a pity that their attention could not have been drawn earlier by other Departments to this very grave danger. May I ask the noble and learned Viscount whether his reference to any other steps which may need to be taken apart from the one he specifies means that there is a fear that the present Government machinery is not sufficient, or perhaps is non-existent, to deal 'with the protection of the public in this matter, and that special measures may be required? If that is the case, I hope notice will be taken. I should like to know whether, in such a case, any measures taken will be a matter for the Home Office or the Board of Trade—which Department?
LORD REA: My Lords, before the noble and learned Viscount replies, may I thank him for the statement and congratulate him on the apparent rapid action which is being taken as a result of this report? I think we may also congratulate him on the use he is making of his leisure by re-reading StrowwelPeter and the moral story of Harriet and the Matches.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I should like to thank both noble Lords for what they have said. In answer to the noble Viscount, the Leader of the Opposition, The position, I think, is somewhat of this kind: there are about 10 million portable oil heaters in use at the moment, of which 3 million at least correspond to the description of the heater which has been the subject of these tests. To begin with, it must depend upon the public whether they heed the warning with regard to those.

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Secondly, clearly the British Standard specification needs looking at in the light of what I have just said, and that is already in hand; but it does not, of course, rest with the Government to prescribe the terms of that specification. Thirdly, the manufacturers have to be consulted, both with regard to the introduction of an improved type for the future and with regard to the provision of facilities for the modification of the 3 million existing heaters, because I should imagine that a good many people who have these heaters will want them modified. Lastly, there is the question whether sales of heaters which are dangerous could be prohibited. As I understand the matter—the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack will no doubt tell me if I am wrong—there is no power to prohibit them without legislation, and clearly one would have to consult with all those concerned both as to whether such legislation was necessary and on what form it should take. I think I am right in saying that as the law stands at, the moment there is no power to prohibit the sale of heaters which happen to be dangerous in this way. I think I have now covered the various aspects of the matter as they occur to me.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am very much obliged. We must wait and see on the points still to be considered. But there has been a large number of fires of this kind, and it is clear from my information from the trade side that the public have been withholding purchases for the last three or four months to such an extent as to cause quite a shock to the hardware trade. If some clear guidance could be given to the public in general, it might be helpful. Therefore the suggestion that the noble and learned Viscount has kindly made—that the inquiries will include what steps should be taken to alter the existing stoves as well as looking at the other question—is very much to be welcomed. It would be a good thing for business in general if it were very clearly understood by the public which oil stoves can still be sold with safety.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I quite agree with that. It has. I think, been the case that since the inquest on a tragic fire at Ware some little time ago,
780
at which Mr. Lawson of the Fire Research Station gave evidence, there has been a very considerable reduction, and one would think a very prudent reduction, in the sale of apparatus of this kind. Parallel with this statement in your Lordships' House, the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research are making a somewhat fuller statement through the Press about the steps which a householder can prudently take if he happens to possess apparatus of this kind. I am sure we are all grateful to the noble Viscount for what he has said.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I do not want to extend what one might call this small debate, but I am rather frightened at the thought of 3 million people with this particular type of stove in their houses. We all know that not everyone reads debates in your Lordships' House, or even the newspapers which would give this information. I was wondering whether the noble Viscount could seek the co-operation of the local authorities, and even the oil companies, to see that a warning is brought into these homes about the dangers of these stoves, and what precautions can be taken to prevent some of these terrible fires.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords. I entirely agree with the noble Lord about the necessity of making it plain that these stoves are apt to be dangerous if exposed to a draught. It is rather for that reason that we have taken the somewhat unusual course that we have. The Department of Scientific and Industrial Research has a Press Office. I hope that they will do what they can with the Press and with the broadcasting authorities to see that this is generally known. I shall certainly hear in mind what the noble Lord said about the local authorities.
LORD REA: My Lords, may we take it that a similar statement has been made in another place?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords. I think that this time we have got in first.

GAME LAWS (AMENDMENT) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (COVENTRY AND MID-WARWICKSHIRE) ORDER, 1959
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (GATESHEAD) ORDER, 1959
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (GLOUCESTER AND STROUD) ORDER, 1959
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (GRIMSBY AND LOUTH) ORDER, 1959
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (ILFORD AND WOODFORD) ORDER, 1959
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (LEEDS, YORK AND BARKSTON ASH) ORDER, 1959
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (LINCOLN AND GRANTHAM) ORDER, 1959
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (NORTH SOMERSET AND WELLS) ORDER, 1959
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (OXFORD AND HENLEY) ORDER, 1959
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (PORTSMOUTH, LANGSTONE AND PETERSFIELD) ORDER, 1959
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (PRESTON SOUTH AND SOUTH FYLDE) ORDER, 1959
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (READING, NEWBURY AND WOKINGHAM) ORDER, 1959
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (SOUTH-WEST LANCASHIRE) ORDER, 1959
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (WANDSWORTH, KINGSTON-UPON-THAMES AND RICHMOND) ORDER, 1959
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (BARNSLEY AND WAKEFIELD) ORDER, 1960
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (MIDDLESBROUGH) ORDER, 1960
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (WALSALL) ORDER, 1960
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (SCOTLAND) (MIDLOTHIAN, EDINBURGH EAST, EDINBURGH SOUTH, EDINBURGH WEST, AND EDINBURGH, PENTLANDS) ORDER, 1960
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (SCOTLAND) (WEST FIFE AND DUNFERMLINE BURGHS) ORDER, 1960
PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (SCOTLAND) (WEST RENFREWSHIRE AND GREENOCK) OR DER, 1960
2.45 p.m.
EARL BATHURST EARL BATHURST rose to move. That the Draft Orders reported from the Special Orders Committee on Wednesday the 24th day of February last, be approved. The noble Earl said: My Lords, at first sight this would seem to be a formidable array of Orders that I ask your Lordships to approve. As your Lordships will have noticed, I am moving some of these Orders on behalf of my noble friend from Scotland, who finds it inconvenient to be in his place to-day. With your Lordships' approval, I will speak about all these Orders including the Scottish ones, at the same time, and then ask your Lordships to approve them en bloc.
These draft Orders give effect, without modification, to the recommendations made by the Boundary Commission for England and the Boundary Commission for Scotland in their Reports submitted to the Secretary of State on July 20, 1995, and January 1, 1960, under subsection (3) of Section 2 of the House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) Act, 1949. These Orders will not affect any Parliamentary Election after they come into force until the next General Election. The Orders all make minor adjustments to constituency boundaries to conform with the recent alterations of local government wards and boundaries. With the permission of the House, I beg to move these Orders en bloc. They received the assent of another place on February 17, and were considered by the Special Orders Commission on February 24. There are no Amendments to these orders as they stand, nor were there any counterproposals.
Moved, That the Draft Orders reported from the Special Orders Committee on

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Wednesday the 24th of February last, be approved.—(Earl Bathurst.)
LORD REA: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl this question? I understood him to say that they will not come into operation until after the next Election. If they are improvements, is it not possible to bring them into force before the next Election? Would that not be a suitable thing to do, if it is possible?
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, as I understand it, these are in no way meant to affect by-elections. They are purely for General Elections after they have come into effect.
LORD REA: Will they affect the next General Election?
EARL BATHURST: Yes, the next General Election. I beg your Lordships' pardon if I did not make the position clear.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS BILL
2.48 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 [Newsreels:]
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD moved to add to subsection (2):
"and (c) that the playing time of the film is not more than fifteen minutes."
The noble Lord said: I do not think I need to speak at great length on this particular Amendment. The Committee will remember that this Bill seeks to extend the legislation of 1938 and 1948 which dealt with feature films and secondary short films. But it further brings into the quota and levy provisions the newsreels. A newsreel is defined in Clause 2 as
"A film consisting wholly or mainly of photographs which, at the time when they were taken, were means of communicating news."
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The "news" could be a wide definition and, as I cited on Second Reading, it might cover a Royal Wedding; it could cover horse racing of such a character as the Derby or the Grand National, or any incident which catches the public eye. I felt, in view of the fact that newsreels will have no production cost to receive quota, that it might be possible for producers to produce films coming within the definition of a newsreel but having a duration extending for thirty to forty minutes, and thereby replace short films which support the main feature.
I believe that that is a possibility, though not a big one, bearing in mind that the cost of producing newsreels is relatively small. They require no script, no staff and no supporting cast, and it would be possible, I think, to produce a newsreel film very cheaply and extend it in length so that it would be attractive to the producer, and the renter to exhibit newsreels, in the place of short films. For that reason I propose in my Amendment to limit the running time of newsreels to fifteen minutes. That would bring them into line with the definitions set out in the Second Schedule to this Bill, which defines a long film as one of which the playing time is not less than 33⅓ minutes, and states that the duration of a serial film instalment shall not be more than 33⅓ minutes. There we have laid down clearly what shall be the minimum or maximum playing time of particular types of film, and I believe that it would tighten the definition of a newsreel if we set a limit of fifteen minutes. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 21, at end insert ("and (c) that the playing time of the film is not more than fifteen minutes.").—(Lord Shepherd.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The effect of accepting this Amendment would be to disqualify from registration a newsreel with a longer playing time than fifteen minutes. The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has explained to your Lordships that he has moved this Amendment because of the possible danger that other films might be crowded out by excessively long newsreels. The noble Lord said he thought that the possibility was a rather unlikely one: I would suggest to your Lordships that it is extremely remote. I think it would be very difficult in practice for an exhibitor

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to find room for the exceptional newsreel that might run for, say, 30 minutes, unless it dealt with some unusual event which had such mass appeal as to secure a place for itself in a cinema programme.
It would not be possible for a producer to make an occasional film of this kind because to qualify as a newsreel a film must be one of a sequence of which not less than one is made every week. If there were any question of the film not fulfilling the definition of a newsreel, so that it could be shown as a short film, obviously it would be to the interest of the producer to show it as a short film, and not as a newsreel, because he would get the 2½ times multiplier—which is not to be given to newsreels. I feel that the exceptional newsreel—and the noble Lord mentioned the Derby and a Royal Wedding—which lasts more than fifteen minutes would be the kind of newsreel which the public would want to see; and there is no reason why it should not last for more than fifteen minutes.
I feel, therefore, that the apprehensions upon which this Amendment is based are unreal and that there are certain cases in which it might in fact be desirable, in the interests of the cinema-going, public, to have a newsreel running for longer than fifteen minutes. If, however, there should be any evidence that excessively long newsreels were crowding out other features we would certainly consider, with the Films Council, amending the levy Regulations in order to disqualify such films from the levy. I believe that such a step would certainly be sufficient to stop the production of any kinds of newsreel which, in the opinion of the Board of Trade and on the advice of the Films Council, were considered to be having an undesirable effect.
LORD SHEPHERD: May I thank the noble Earl for his reply which in the latter part I found very satisfactory. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD ARCHIBALD LORD ARCHIBALD moved to add to the clause:
"(8) Nothing in this section entitling newsreels to be registered for Quota as British films shall entitle such newsreels to participate in the benefits of the film production fund administered by the British Film Fund Agency."
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The noble Lord said: The point dealt with in this Amendment was fairly fully discussed during our Second Reading debate and I do not want to go over all the ground again at this time. I did feel, however, that the case from the Government side had not been really fully made on Second Reading. After all, this is a complete innovation. After 33 years of Cinematograph Films Acts we now, for the first time, have newsreels brought in for quota. Neither the noble Lord, Lord Westwood, nor I object to that. What we do object to is that at the same time they should be brought in to qualify for the benefits of the production levy.
As was pointed out on Second Reading, the production levy is not Government funds but the funds of the industry, and I feel that a much stronger case than has yet been made is required to justify taking £150,000 from a fund set up primarily to benefit feature film production, on which the whole industry rests, to subsidise newsreels produced by prosperous companies. The argument was advanced (not in your Lordships' House on Second Reading but in another place) during the progress of the Bill that the newsreels had a particular value because of their overseas propaganda effect. There is no logical reason why British producers or exhibitors should contribute in a special way towards the Government's overseas propaganda activities. If newsreels have a real value for that, then funds for that purpose ought to come from the ordinary funds which provide other means of overseas propaganda; and that, I believe, is a situation which Her Majesty's Government can justify.
The main point in putting down the Amendment, however, was to see whether Her Majesty's Government had given the matter further thought since the Second Reading of the Bill and whether wiser counsels might have prevailed, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 35, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Archibald.)
LORD WESTWOOD: I would ask my noble friend to accept this Amendment, in the light of all the arguments raised on this clause both during the Second Reading in this House and in another place. The majority of cinema exhibitors

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are not showing newsreels for a very simple reason—because they are not news. None of your Lordships would buy a three-days-old newspaper if you wanted to keep up to date, but that is usually the length of time it takes before a news item becomes available to the public in a cinema. In some cases it is six days, and in others even nine days.
The clause as it stands permits monies to be paid out of the Film Production Fund to help subsidise the newsreels, which are not shown in the great majority of cinemas in this country. We have been told that the amount involved is something between £150,000 and £200,000 per year. For that sum of money there are several British producers who could make two or three really good feature films, and these films would be shown on every screen in the country and not on just a few, as newsreels are at present. Within recent months there has been a very successful batch of British films which were comedy films: I'm All Right, Jack; Carry on, Teacher; Two Way Stretch; Please Turn Over; Carry on, Nurse, are just a few of them. They were all modest budget films and yet they were all big box-office attractions and made a lot of money throughout the country.
As the noble Lord, Lord Archibald, has told the Committee, it is not Government money that we are spending; it is the industry's money which is at stake, and in my view it should be used solely for the purpose for which it was raised—namely, the financing of feature films. I do not object to the money being used for second-feature films and shorts, because they provide the training ground for stars and technicians, but that argument cannot be used so far as newsreels are concerned, as they do not employ any stars or actors whatsoever. The two companies which own and produce the newsreels are far from being poor companies. They are both prosperous companies, with healthy balance sheets, and both have substantial associations with large American production companies. I strongly support the noble Lord, Lord Archibald, in this Amendment and I hope that my noble friend will be able to accept it.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The proposal to include newsreels in the quota
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of levy arrangements is one of the few novel features in this Part of this Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Archibald, has said, this question was fairly fully discussed on Second Reading by himself and others of your Lordships. He has explained to your Lordships that he could not add very much to what he had said then, but that he put forward his Amendment in the hope that "wiser counsels might have prevailed". I am sorry to have to tell the Committee that "wiser counsels" have not prevailed, and I have very little—indeed, really nothing—to add to what I myself said, I think at fairly considerable length, about this matter on Second Reading.
The sole reason why newsreels were not originally included in the levy arrangements was simply that at that time—in fact, until very lately; until television has become so universal—they were extremely prosperous and they were considered not to need any levy at all. Now, largely as a result, perhaps, of television, they are doing very badly. Only two companies, as my noble friend Lord Westwood said, are still continuing to produce newsreels, and they will not be able to continue to produce them if newsreels cannot get the aid of the levy. It seems a little unfair that, having originally refused to give any part of the levy to newsreels because they did not need it, we should now refuse to give it because they do need it. For that reason I think it would be both unfair and unreasonable to refrain from taking this step at this stage. I thought that everything which my noble friend Lord Westwood has just said about newsreels might equally well have been said not so very long ago about shorts and second-feature films, which at that time were doing very badly and which needed the levy very much and which at one time were the special object of concern by the trade. They were doing badly then and therefore they were given aid under the levy. Now newsreels are doing badly and it would be unfair to continue to discriminate against them.
The noble Lord said that the two companies which are producing newsreels are themselves prosperous. That may be so; but the newsreels are losing money and they will not go on if they continue to lose money. If the newsreels are to be judged as no longer having

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sufficient appeal to the public to justify their continuance, at least let that happen without any unfair discrimination against them. Whether they really are so bad and so feeble as some critics say is a matter of dramatic or artistic opinion. We might have said the same about any of the films which are now receiving the levy. But at least if they are to fail by the test of not being worth the exhibitors' while to show them (which is, in the long run, the only test by which they can be judged), do not let it be as a result of unfair discrimination. Let them have a fair chance, the same chance as is given to all other kinds of films. Of course we know it is the exhibitors' money and not Government money, but we are doing this on the advice of the Films Council, who have recommended that these newsreels should now receive equal treatment with every other kind of production in this regard.
LORD SHEPHERD: I listened to the noble Earl with some dismay. When he said wiser counsels were not prevailing in the Government decision, it occurred to me that many of us on this side of the House have thought that for some considerable time, but now we have the noble Earl admitting it. I have listened to the case made by the noble Earl, and I do not think he met the case that was put by the noble Lord opposite and by my noble friend Lord Archibald. Surely the original object of the quota and of the levy was to support the feature film and, later, the short film only because they were essential to the cinema exhibitors; because if we had not got these British films the exhibitors would have little to show. But here is a very clear case, and it is being proved throughout the country that newsreels are no longer required by the exhibitors; they are no longer appreciated by the public. The public are getting their news first-hand from the newspapers and also from television, and obviously the cinema could never put the news forward in the same way as television. Therefore I see absolutely no reason why the cinema exhibitors, who are the men who find the money, should pay a levy to maintain a service they no longer require.
I believe that the reason the Government want newsreels to continue is for their overseas value. If that is the case—and I believe there is a case—then it
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is up to the Central Office of Information to find the money. I believe that if the C.O.I. were prepared to subsidise newsreels we might get better newsreels and newsreels that would play a far greater part in putting the British way of life across in overseas countries. I am very sorry that the Government persist in this view. It means using private money; asking that that should bear the burden which should be borne by the country if it is a question of newsreels for overseas markets. I do not know what the noble Lords are going to do on this Amendment, but I think they will join me in saying that the noble Earl has not met the case which they have put this afternoon.
LORD ARCHIBALD: May I correct one point made by the noble Earl? He suggested that the newsreels were excluded from levy in the past because they were prosperous. But may I point out that, both at the time of the voluntary levy and at the time of the statutory levy in 1957, the benefits of the levy were channelled only to films which qualified for quota. Until the Bill which we are now considering, newsreels never qualified for quota and therefore did not qualify for levy: and neither at the time of the voluntary levy nor at the time of the statutory levy did anyone suggest that the newsreels should be brought into quota and therefore brought into levy. If, however, the Government have decided that this declining side of the industry is to be artificially supported, there is nothing we can do about it, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clauses 3 to 7 agreed to.
Clause 8 [Inclusion of studio or maker in credit titles]:
3.11 p.m.
LORD ARCHIBALD LORD ARCHIBALD moved to leave out Clause 8. The noble Lord said: This is a very small point on what I might call a very small clause. All that this clause provides is that the name and address of the studio, or that of the maker of the film, shall be shown at the beginning or end of a film. The background to this clause was, of course, something more ambitious. It was

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originally intended that all British films should be compelled to carry a title saying, "This is a British film", and to have made that effective there would also have had to be a complicated provision compelling the British producer to introduce into all his overseas contracts clauses requiring overseas distributors to retain these credit titles and not in any circumstances to cut them out. Of course, such a clause would have meant saddling the producer with such an amount of litigation as to make his life hardly worth living. He might have heard, three or six months later, that his distributor in Venezuela, Colombo, or somewhere else, had cut this out. What would he then have had to do: apply for an injunction, or launch an action for damages? For if he did not, he would be breaking the new law.
As this Bill has progressed, the clause has become somewhat emasculated, and it now provides only that the name and address of the studio or maker should be in the film. But, as I think was recognised by the Government spokesman on Second Reading, or at least in another place, that is effective only in this country, where it is completely unnecessary. British audiences know when they are seeing a British film, and do not need the name and address of the studio or maker to tell them that it is a British film. When it goes overseas—and in some territories it might be important—if the overseas distributor does not want to have it on the screen that it is a British film, it is a very simple operation with a pair of scissors to take out that matter, and nothing can be done about it. So where it is effective it is unnecessary: where it is, necessary it is completely ineffective. Quite frankly, I do not like silly clauses in a Bill. I do not like ineffective and unnecessary legislation. For that reason, I move as an Amendment that this clause be deleted.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 8.—(Lord Archibald.)
LORD WESTWOOD: I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Archibald, that this clause is not necessary and should be deleted. I can fully understand why the clause was included. It was put in by the Government with good intention; but, as the noble Lord, Lord Archibald,
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has told your Lordships, it will be impossible to carry it out. He has told you that, so far as our British audiences are concerned, the provision is not necessary at all because all the audiences know when a British picture is being shown. When the film goes overseas, there have been many instances when it has been altered and, by some judicious editing, shown and enjoyed by patrons in other lands. This provision in Clause 8 will not be observed, and I suggest that it could come out.
Most of your Lordships will remember—it is only a few years ago—that we had an excellent British film made which was enjoyed by many thousands of people: I refer to Whisky Galore. The film was shown in America, and when they got it over there they made several alterations to it. They edited it; they cut it, and then they changed the title. They went beyond Clause 8. From Whisky Galore it became Tight Little Island. Your Lordships will therefore see that once a British film goes overseas there is not much that can be done to see that the conditions in Clause 8 are observed. The clause is unnecessary and fatuous, and I hope that Her Majesty's Government will accept this Amendment.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Archibald, that this is a small point, but I hope I can persuade him that it is not entirely useless. As he has said, a great many of the best British films are shown abroad with the implication that they are American films and not British, so as to deprive the British film industry of the credit of producing them. But that can be done merely by failing to state that they are British, and by allowing the audience to infer that they are American. Now whatever legal provisions are made here, I do not think there is any way of imposing upon the distributors abroad a requirement that they must state, when they show a film, that it is British. I do not think that would be legally enforceable. It would be quite pointless and fatuous if we tried to provide ourselves with ground for successful legal action on these matters. But surely we could make it just a little more difficult by providing that, if they do wish to show it with the inference that it is not a British film, they must

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then, as I think I said during the Second Reading, be guilty not merely of negative action by failing to state that it is British but of a positive act of dishonesty by leaving out an integral part of the title. That, of course, is a thing which could not give ground for legal action, but it could give ground for comment and that would make it a little more difficult to do. Distributors cannot make such omissions unless they positively commit an act of dishonesty. We cannot prevent them from being dishonest, but we can at least make it so that they have got to do a dishonest thing if they are going to misrepresent the origin. I do not think that this is an entirely useless or pointless thing to do. Whatever we did, I do not think we could make it legally enforceable to state that it is a British film: we are merely making it, we hope, a little more difficult for dishonest people to make it appear that it is not.
LORD ARCHIBALD: Having, perhaps, a wider knowledge of the international film business than the noble Earl, may I say that I am less persuaded of the efficacy of this clause. I am not persuaded. Nevertheless, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Clauses 9 and 10 agreed to.
Clause 11 [Amendment of register, and registration of alternative particulars]:
LORD ARCHIBALD LORD ARCHIBALD moved to add to subsection (5):
"Provided that for the purposes of this subsection alterations in the Register as regards playing time made within three months of the date of original registration shall be ignored."
The noble Lord said: This is a small fairly technical point, which I explained during the Second Reading debate, and I need only take a minute or two on it now. I hope that it is one on which the Government are going to meet us, because it is entirely technical. May I say that if they feel that the period of three months specified in the Amendment is too long, I shall be quite happy to accept 30 or 45 days in substitution for it?
The Amendment applies mainly to British producers. After they have registered their films and have had an
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opportunity of seeing how audiences react to them, they may want to do a little editing which might have the effect of changing the registered length, and that has to be done within a month or six weeks of a film having been registered. That produces an unnecessary amount of work for the renters, who need to re-register if they are to satisfy the whole requirements of this clause, which otherwise is a very good one. I think that there is no section of the industry which would be opposed to the Amendment which I have put down, and I hope that, either in the form in which I have put it, or limited to 30 or 45 days, the Government will accept it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 29, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Archibald).
LORD WESTWOOD: This is a simple and, in my view, sensible Amendment, and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Archibald, that it would assist the British producers. The provisions contained in the clause as it stands are too restrictive. The noble Lord has told us the reasons for the Amendment. After a film has had its first run in the West End of London, it is sometimes—not often, but sometimes—the case that the producer can, by careful editing, improve the film and speed up the action. This applies to comedy films more than to any other type of film. When the film leaves the West End of London and goes out to the suburbs and provinces, the edited version, which is an improved version, is much more acceptable to audiences. If a period of three months or, as the noble Lord, Lord Archibald, has suggested, one month, were allowed to the producer, in which to make his alterations and improvements, it would be of benefit both to the producers and exhibitors generally and I am confident would make the picture much more attractive, especially at the box office. I support this Amendment.
LORD ST. OSWALD: This Amendment involves a delicate balance between renters' rights and exhibitors' rights, or perhaps I should say, between exhibitors' protection and renters' convenience. The noble Lord, Lord Archibald, considers that the law as proposed in this Bill will bear too heavily on the renters, but I am

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afraid that he has not persuaded me or the Government of that. He has made the need for occasional cutting, and even drastic cutting, during, the pre-release run quite plain and that is not contested. Something that may make even a film director laugh, may not make an audience laugh and therefore would have to be axed. But this operation is, and remains, a perfectly simple one, without any Amendment.
Under Section 8 of the 1938 Act, a distributor can deliver an altered film without any notice to the exhibitor, so long as the alteration is not more than one-tenth of the running time of the film. That strikes me as a perfectly reasonable tolerance. An average film I suppose would be of 90 to 100 minutes' duration, which means that an undeclared alteration in running time of ten minutes can be made. If a film contains more than ten minutes of "dud" jokes, I should have thought that the director was "slipping" to a dangerous degree and might require "axing" himself.
In this deplorable event, the renter is still not tied to an unwieldy film. He can effect such cutting as he wishes, so long as he tells the exhibitor he has done so. That does not seem to me a very onerous obligation and seems a minimum protection to the exhibitor. It means notifying the exhibitor at the time the contract is made. The renter is always free to re-register the film at a maximum cost of 4 guineas—the new maximum cost of registration is 8 guineas—if he prefers this method. If he does neither, there is always the possibility that an exhibitor may be persuaded to take a film, in ignorance, which he might have refused in wisdom. We feel that it is only right to guard against that possibility, on the public's behalf as much as on anyone's.
The noble Lord spoke of the amount of work entailed. Naturally he has a greater knowledge of that than I have, but that occurred to me when I was studying the Amendment, and my advice is that it does not entail any great amount of work. It entails merely the renter's making a note of the fact that a film, which was a certain length when made and when registered, is now that much shorter, and making a simple announcement of this fact before the
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contract is signed. In summary, we think it is wrong that a renter should be permitted to make severe alterations in playing time, and even in the content of a film, without bringing these changes to the exhibitors' attention, as this Amendment would permit. If he wishes to do so, which he might well do for perfectly worthy reasons, he should have to say so. For those reasons, I am afraid I cannot meet the noble Lord's wishes on this matter.
LORD ARCHIBALD: If the Government are not prepared to accept a very small, eminently practicable and reasonable Amendment such as this, I think that we might refrain from moving the rest of our Amendments, because it is quite obvious that none of them is going to get any consideration. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 11 agreed to.
Clauses 12 to 15 agreed to.
3.28 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD moved, after Clause 15 to insert the following new clause:
Application of Acts to televised films
". In subsection (1) of section forty-four of the Act of 1938 there shall be added to the definition of exhibitor' the words 'and shall include the British Broadcasting Corporation and any television programme contractor'."
The noble Lord said: I must say that I sympathise with the attitude of my noble friend Lord Archibald, but I am going to move this Amendment because I wish to develop the argument that I started on Second Reading. First I should like to make it clear to the Committee that, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Westwood, and my noble friend Lord Archibald, I have no connections with the film industry. In fact, I can claim that on no occasion have I received a free ticket for any film premiere. I may also say that in moving this Amendment I am in no way attacking the television authorities. I am endeavouring to show an inequality that now exists between cinema exhibitors, on the one hand, and television authorities, on the other.
The Committee will know that in recent years the television authorities have increasingly exhibited on their medium cinematograph films which were originally produced for showing in the cinema.

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The 1938 and 1948 Acts were passed primarily to give assistance to the cinematograph film producers. Then television was in its infancy, transmitting only to a relatively few people and for limited hours per day. To do justice to the case I wish to put before the Committee, I feel that I should go over some of the ground that I covered on Second. Reading. I think it will be accepted that film producers in this country were experiencing extreme difficulties, and that the 1938 and 1948 Acts brought into being a quota system which meant that cinema exhibitors were bound by Statute to exhibit a certain percentage annually of British films. In the early days these provisions must have caused hardship, but I think the Committee will agree that over the years they have benefited all parties: in fact, we heard from the noble Earl on the Second Reading that the exhibitors had exceeded the quota that was laid down by Statute, which means that they were showing more British films than they were called upon to do. Then, in 1957, it was found that the film producers will still experiencing difficulties, and by Statute a levy was put on all the cinema exhibitors in this country.
I would again call attention to what the noble Lord, Lord Archibald, said: that prior to the statutory levy the cinema industry had a voluntary levy. The producers have been receiving by Statute quite a considerable sum of money. I have no definite figures of what a distributor has received on a particular film, but I understand that if a distributor or producer earns £100,000 he receives approximately £30,000, raised from the exhibitors. Therefore your Lordships can see that, on one side, so far as the exhibitors are concerned, they have a statutory levy placed upon them, but in the case of the television authorities they have no statutory obligation as to the quantity of foreign or British films that must be shown through their medium. It is perfectly true that there are limitations on foreign productions but, as I am trying to show, the television authorities are today acting as cinematograph exhibitors and are continually and increasingly showing cinematograph films through their medium. They have no quota; they are not forced to show any fixed percentage of British films through their medium and they do not have to pay any
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contribution to the producers who are producing films.
I believe that this inequality is something that we should put right. I put down Amendment No. 7, but I withdrew it because I believed that if it were accepted it would mean that no British films would appear on television, and that is something that none of us would wish. But I believe that the Amendment I am now putting before the Committee is possible. It would certainly aid the film producers, for they would then have a fixed percentage of their films to be shown on television, and, equally, they would be receiving from the television authorities quite a considerable sum of money which they could use for the development of their own productions, and in turn that contribution might well reduce the cost of our films and make them more competitive and obviously more saleable in the overseas countries.
I have not had any Parliamentary draftsman to help me in drafting the Amendment, but I ask the Government to accept the general principle that I put before the Committee: that the exhibitor and the television authorities, both exhibiting to the public through different media cinematograph films, should be treated equally in bearing the burden and giving aid to the cinema producing industry. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 15, insent the said new clause.—(Lord Shepherd.)
LORD ARCHIBALD: Before the Government reply on this Amendment, I should like to say a few words. I am generally in sympathy with the idea behind the Amendment, but I must say, with all due respect to my noble friend Lord Shepherd, that as he has put it down I do not think, is entirely the correct way of doing it. He has not distinguished between the two kinds of films shown on television. The entire British industry is opposed to the showing of any cinematograph films on television. We think it is ludicrous that films which may have cost several hundred thousand pounds to produce for cinematograph exhibition should be shown on television at a cost of a few thousand pounds and have the effect of damaging the industry which has produced the films. It is not a quota or

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levy provision that we want, but greater success in the attempts of the industry to keep these films off the television screens altogether.
But there is another side to it, and that is with regard to the films which are specifically made for television. These are mainly the half-hour series films—some of them are now nearer to an hour, but in the main they are half an hour—the bulk of which come from America, of the I Love Lucy type. It is in regard to these series films made for television that the Government might well look, not necessarily for the scope of this Bill, but for future action, at the possibility of imposing a quota, so that where they are showing on television series of American made television films there should be a quota of British made television films to be set against them.
The situation with regard to British television series is at the moment rather serious. They were being produced in fairly reasonable numbers, but, for lack of a quota, the B.B.C. and the television contractors have been offering such ridiculously low prices for the British television series that it is quite uneconomic to make them, and they have to depend on being able to sell these films in the American market if they are going to get back the cost, or anything like it, with the result that the making in the British studios of British television film series has dwindled almost to nothing. I do not imagine that it would be easy to include a quota for television films within the scope of this Bill, but I hope that the Government will look at it and consider whether some action can be taken at a later date.
3.40 p.m.
LORD ST. OSWALD: This Amendment was moved simply and lucidly by the noble Lord, and I wish I could put the argument to it simply and lucidly as well. I have not found any way of doing that. On first reading the terms of the Amendment, I tried to imagine myself moving it, in the course of which I worked up nearly as much enthusiasm as the noble Lord himself, though naturally not so much eloquence. It has an undeniable surface attraction, but I am now convinced, and before sitting down I shall try to convince the noble
800
Lord, that its beauty is only a little more than skin deep. To begin with, and going only a little more than skin deep myself, I should, say that this Amendment could not be effective, because the provisions of the Cinematograph Films Acts up to date—the whole family of Acts—bear on the exhibitor only when he exhibits a film in a theatre. As noble Lords are aware, the whole assessment for levy, as concerns collection and distribution, is affected by the number of full seats which can be counted, or at least the number of tickets sold at the box office. Exemption from quota can be claimed by an exhibitor on the basis of the potentially empty seats he can foresee, or the unsold tickets he can imagine and describe convincingly to the Board of Trade.
The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has made it plain that this Amendment, like the last which he did not move, is inspired by the buying up two months ago of 55 films for television, and the possibility of further such deals which has been opened up. Although, as no doubt my noble friend would have pointed out, the purpose of the last Amendment required no alteration in the Bill, because it could be achieved by regulations, the object of this Amendment would in fact require a completely different sort of Bill. The main purpose of the Bill is set down in paragraph (a) of the Explanatory Memorandum. It reads:
"to amend the film quota legislation (which requires cinema exhibitors to show a certain proportion of British films) and to extend it until the end of 1967."
That is clearly stated, and it is hard for me to see how, under those terms of reference, we could introduce controls over a completely different medium of entertainment.
If the noble Lords, Lord Shepherd and Lord Archibald, wished to argue on the strength of the situation they have described—that a new Television Act was called for—they could seek an opportunity, but not, I think, this afternoon. For my part, I am not seeking to argue against the noble Lord that television has become or has not become an exhibitor in the sense he used. I am only underlining the fact that it does not exhibit films in the medium which this Bill was designed to cover, but on the television screen.

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In this connection the noble Lord is probably aware that the present Television Act already requires that programmes put out by commercial television companies should be British to a substantial extent. But if, as I understand him, he now says that the B.B.C. and Commercial Television contractors should register with the Board of Trade under the amended Cinematograph Films Act, I would tell him that the British Film Producers' Association themselves see very grave difficulties and complications arising from this.
I will give noble Lords some examples, first as regards the quota provisions. To start with, it would be necessary to define the sort of films to be included in the quota. This was touched upon by the noble Lord, Lord Archibald. There are many kinds. There are cinema films, long and short; there are films made of variety programmes shown the same day; there are documentary and advertising films and others, some of which have been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Archibald. Would the quota cover all these films, or would a different quota have to apply to a different category of film? It would be presumably necessary, furthermore, to determine all over again the precise definition of a British film for quota purposes. This is defined surely enough for the Cinematograph Films Acts, and to satisfy this definition an eight page form is required from a producer, supported by a statutory declaration, to enable the Board of Trade to pass a given film as being British. But this definition, which is for cinema films, would not be appropriate for many types of small television films. Entirely new requirements would have to be laid down for the implementing of this, even if the Government were entirely persuaded of the wisdom of the noble Lord's Amendment.
Six years ago, the quota problem was faced when the Television Act, 1954, was being considered. It was thought then by some that a full quota procedure should be written into the Act instead of the general provision that a proper proportion of recorded material must be of British origin. The idea was dropped because of the complicated nature of the legislation entailed, even in a specific Television Act. It is most unlikely that the existing quota, or any quota determined for cinemas, would apply fairly
802
to television. There was a time when only about 5 per cent. of screen time was secured by British films in British cinemas. The quota system was introduced to correct this state of affairs. But to-day something like 86 per cent. of all material shown on television screens in this country is British.
I observed, as I imagine the noble Lord did, the resolution by the Association of Cinematograph, Television and Allied Technicians reported yesterday. It condemned the quantity of American material on British television and sought to regulate the showing of cinema films on the television screen. It may be that from within the two industries themselves we shall find some answer to this problem. But, speaking as a relatively small consumer of either type of entertainment, it strikes me that so long as everything, or almost everything, projected on to the cinema screen is assessed for the quota, then everything projected on to television screens should also be taken into account. At present, 86 per cent. of that material is British. If, by legislation, we were to separate all films from this and impose a quota only on that section of television programmes, then television contractors might find themselves showing 90 per cent. of British material, partly under obligation, with cinemas showing only their 30 per cent. quota as ordained. On the other hand, they might feel themselves entitled to show less than before, if this, as I believe, is at present above the 30 per cent. of British film material.
The problem of applying the levy to the television programmes could be even greater than that of the quota. Take, first, the collection. I quote, with the permission of your Lordships, but with no great gusto, from the Cinema Films (Collection of Levy) Regulations, 1957, as amended by the Collection of Levy (Amendment) Regulations, 1958.
"The levy shall be computed by reference to the payments received by the person liable to pay the levy for admission to entertainments … at any theatre in respect of which that person is licensed, and in respect of each such payment, at the rate of 10 per cent. of the amount by which the total amount of that payment (not excluding the amount of the entertainments duty (if any) chargeable thereon) exceeds 11d."
Always supposing that noble Lords have followed me so far, they will realise

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that this provision would be totally inapplicable to television films, because nothing is paid above or below 11d. for watching a given film on a television screen, be it from your own or somebody else's armchair. As concerns the distribution of the levy, all power of selectivity would be lost if applied to television showing. The object is to encourage the makers of good films, and not the makers of bad films. I think the noble Lord did not bring that point out when he was mentioning the £100,000 earned and the £30,000 received back. To this end, distribution is geared to box office success. But there is no measurable box office success for a film shown on the television screen. I think the noble Lord would agree that some other measure would have to be sought. Would it be on the basis of the sum paid by the television authorities, on the basis of length, cost or in other ways? Any method, I suggest, would require careful and complicated definition, and all ways would, I suggest, excite ferocious criticism from some angle.
There would be yet another difficulty. Noble Lords will know that for different types of cinema film there are different rates of payment from the levy fund. Second-feature films have their earnings multiplied by two, short films by two and a half. But these scales would be quite inappropriate for films shown on the television screen. I have tried to put a reasoned, even if somewhat lengthy, argument to the noble Lord, and for these reasons, without expressing, or I hope implying, any direct hostility to the principle embodied in his Amendment; and because I think, and I hope he now feels, it does not come within the compass of this Act, I ask him to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD SHEPHERD: I would thank the noble Lord for his obviously extensive homework and congratulate him. He has raised points which I frankly did not think existed. I spent hours reading this legislation. I shall certainly read his speech with the greatest care and I hope with intelligence. The purpose, as I have made clear, in putting this Amendment down was to raise a principle, a principle of equality between the cinema exhibitor and the television authorities, who in my judgment are both exhibitors. I appreciate—I think
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I do at least—the difficulties that would arise if I tried to persuade the Government to accept my Amendment, and on that understanding I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.53 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD moved, after Clause 15 to insert the following new clause:
Irish films
". Notwithstanding anything in the Cinematograph Films Acts, 1938 to 1957, a film made in the Republic of Ireland shall, for the purposes of those Acts and this Act be treated as a foreign film."
The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment I should again make it clear that I am not attacking any person who comes from the Republic of Ireland or raising it in protest about the export of live horses to the Continent. But in recent years there have been built in Southern Ireland the Ardmore Studios. Those are very extensive studios, and very modern. I raised the whole question why the Republic of Ireland was included in this Bill because I felt that with these modern studios in Southern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland there was possibility of abuse.
The noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, in replying to the Second Reading debate stated the reason the Republic of Ireland was included. I will read his words, because they were very clear [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 220 (No. 35), Col. 1058]:
"This … is an example of legislation by reference, and by reference to Bills which in fact have nothing to do with any Films Bill. Under the Ireland Act of 1949 the Republic of Ireland ceased to be a Hart of Her Majesty's Dominions, but under Section 3 of that Act it is provided that, until some provision to the contrary is made, any Act of Parliament passed before the Ireland Act and containing a reference to Her Majesty's Dominions continues to relate to the Republic of Ireland as if it were one of those Dominions."
He then pointed out, quite rightly, that as this Bill seeks to amend and extend the provisions of Acts of 1938 and 1948 which had been passed prior to the Ireland Act, 1949, it was necessary specifically to include the Republic of Ireland in this Bill. I cannot believe that it is necessary, simply because it was done in the past and because it may apply quite rightly to certain Acts, that the Republic of Ireland should be included in this Bill.
As I said earlier, in Southern Ireland we have these new studios. It is possible

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for a foreign film to be made in Southern Ireland, with American directors, American producers and American capital, and so long as the percentage of the total cost comes to a certain level (I believe 75 per cent.) that film can be imported and shown in this country and will come within the quota which has been laid down for British films. In other words I would submit that there is a possibility that a basically foreign film might be made in Southern Ireland, with relatively low costs as compared with ours, brought into this country and used against the quota which has been laid down for British films. I believe that is a very serious loophole. I think there is one further point to which I should draw the attention of the Committee: that there are no reciprocal arrangements in the Republic of Ireland and no quota system; our films must fight foreign films and have no special protection. For that reason I would ask the Government to accept the Amendment which I now move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 15 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Shepherd.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: This Amendment as it appeared on the Order Paper yesterday proposed that notwithstanding the Acts of 1938 to 1957 a film made in the Republic of Ireland
"shall not, for the purposes of those Acts and this Act, he treated as if it had been made outside the Republic of Ireland."
That sounded a little difficult to controvert. The Amendment to-day reads "shall be treated as a foreign film". As the noble Lord has explained to your Lordships, the Republic of Ireland Act, 1949, provided that previous Acts applying to any of Her Majesty's Dominions, which would at that time have included Ireland, should continue to apply to Ireland unless the contrary was stated. But it is also our policy to extend to citizens of the Republic of Ireland the privileges of British citizenship and also commercial preferences and rights pertaining to the Commonwealth, although Ireland is not a member of the Commonwealth. Naturally everybody would probably prefer that Ireland should decide to enter into a fuller association of the Commonwealth not only with the United Kingdom but all the other members. That is the point of the Commonwealth. But it is our policy, which we
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think is right, that although Ireland chooses to remain outside the Commonwealth nevertheless we shall afford to the people of Ireland the privileges which they would enjoy if they were in it. We are very anxious to do nothing which would depart from that policy unless there is a very clear case for it.
The noble Lord is no doubt aware that films made in studios in the Republic of Ireland are already barred from participating in the levy unless they are made by a United Kingdom company. That is a provision which applies to all the Dominions, and they agree it is fair, because there is no reciprocity on their side. So it could arise only if the film were made by a United Kingdom company. We recognise that there is apprehension in the industry that the studios at Ardmore in Ireland might be used by United Kingdom companies to produce films to an extent which would be prejudicial to labour and the studios in this country. At present we do not think that those apprehensions are likely to materialise. It is the same, I think, in regard to any Dominion. A company may want to take its staff abroad to a Dominion for a certain amount of outside work. It is extremely unlikely that they would want to do more than a little in studios in the Dominions when they have much better studios here, where everything can be done much more cheaply.
I think that, for commercial reasons and reasons of convenience, it is most unlikely that the United Kingdom companies would wish to use the studios at Ardmore to any appreciable extent in preference to studios in the United Kingdom. But we shall certainly watch the situation, and if it should appear that this was being done to a prejudicial extent, we should certainly ask the Cinematograph Films Council to advise us whether the regulations governing the levy should be amended in such a way as to prevent this from happening. It probably would not be a total exclusion; it might perhaps be a provision that a certain proportion of the time of producing a film must be in British studios—only allowing a few small shots which were reasonable in conjunction with outside work to be done in foreign studios.
We will certainly watch the position, but in the meantime it does not seem

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that the danger which is apprehended by certain people is actually imminent. We do not want to take any action which would seem to discriminate against the Republic of Ireland, or indeed against any part of the Commonwealth. Therefore, we should prefer not to put this Amendment into the Bill, but to wait and see whether, on the advice of the Cinematograph Films Council, any amendment of the regulations might be necessary.
LORD SHEPHERD: I thank the noble Earl for his reply and I shall certainly withdraw my Amendment. I believe that this is the last Amendment on this Bill. May I say to the noble Earl and to the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, that, whilst on quite a number of occasions we have been thoroughly dissatisfied with the Government's attitude, we thank them for their courtesy in making their replies to us.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am most grateful to the noble Lord. I, too, should like to thank him and his friends for the most reasonable way in which they have made their comments on this Bill, and for so greatly facilitating its progress.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 16 agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
Schedules agreed to.
House resumed.
Bill reported without amendment.

HORTICULTURE BILL
4.5 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL WALDEGRAVE): My Lords, horticulture is an important industry; it is also a large industry. The value of sales of home-grown and imported produce at wholesale prices, excluding potatoes, is of the order of £270 million. The industry gives employment to large numbers of people—not only growers, but wholesalers, retailers and their employees, as well as ancillary industries
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such as transport, container manufacture and so on. The industry is intensely complex in structure. In some parts of the country there are numbers of general market gardeners growing a wide range of produce—Evesham and Bedfordshire are areas which come immediately to mind; and there are others. In some areas there are specialist growers concentrating on just a few crops; and there are also special sections of the industry, such as the glasshouse section and florists. The scale as well as the type of production varies. There are tiny holdings of, for instance, strawberries at Cheddar, in the county I come from, and there are large acreages of carrots or of celery in Cambridgeshire and the Isle of Ely. Again, it is a very widely dispersed industry. There are broccoli growers in Cornwall and damson growers in the Lake District; raspberry growers in Blairgowrie; bulb growers in Lincolnshire, and watercress growers in the Southern Counties.
Therefore the system of marketing that has grown up has had to be complex to meet the needs of this scattered industry, with its ultimate buyers, the consumers, so concentrated in the large towns. There are, therefore, a large number of methods of trading in existence. Perhaps the most general practice is for the grower to send to a commission salesman in one of the primary markets. The produce is then sold on the grower's behalf to local retailers or other wholesalers supplying local towns or country districts. But an appreciable amount of produce reaches the consumer in other ways. Sometimes the grower himself takes his produce to market and sells it direct to retailers, and in some districts and with some produce country merchants buy direct from the growers ex-farm and then re-sell to other retailers or wholesalers. Growers also use country markets, and also sell through co-operatives in any of these ways or direct to the large retailers. Then, to-day, through the development of self-service and pre-packaging, further changes are taking place.
It is altogether fitting, therefore, that Parliament should now have before it a major Bill dealing solely with this major industry. So far as I can ascertain, this is the first time that this has happened. Horticultural legislation has always previously been, as it were, tagged on to

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the end of more general agricultural legislation. Your Lordships will remember the valuable Report which was published in January, 1957, of the Committee presided over by the noble Viscount, Lord Runciman of Doxford. That Committee investigated the marketing of horticultural produce and made recommendations. As is fully set out in the White Paper (Cmnd. 880) which was published in November of last year, the Government agreed with the broad conclusion of the Runciman Committee that the marketing structure generally was satisfactory, although of course it was not perfect in every detail, and they accepted in principle the recommendation that there should be established a Horticultural Marketing Council. Your Lordships will be aware that the Horticultural Marketing Advisory Council was set up in May, 1958, to examine the practical problems involved. This Advisory Committee reported in May, 1959.
As it is the foundation of the legislation that we see before us, perhaps I may recapitulate the sequence of events. Lord Runciman of Doxford's Committee was invited in 1955 to study the problem of marketing and presentation. Eighteen months later there came their Report. In the following year the Horticultural Marketing Advisory Council was set up to consider the far-reaching implications of some of the Committee's recommendations upon which Her Majesty's Government thought it proper to seek independent advice. Then there were the conclusions reached in the light of that advice, set out in the White Paper of 1959; and there is this Bill, which we are to-day reading for a second time in your Lordships' House, dealing with two of the main directions in which Her Majesty's Government intend to implement their policy on horticultural marketing. I look forward, at a later date, to bringing before your Lordships legislation dealing with the reorganisation of Covent Garden Market, which will cover the third of the three directions in which we wish to advance at this time.
This Bill, then, is designed to help the grower of British horticultural produce to improve the presentation of his produce for market; and it is designed, as well, to aid the industry as a whole in
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improving the marketing and distribution of all horticultural produce. It does so by means of two main provisions—the introduction of improvement grants through a Horticulture Improvement Scheme and by the setting up of a Horticultural Marketing Council. It has always been recognised, I believe, that horticulture could not appropriately be assisted by the methods of guaranteed markets, deficiency payments and production grants that are applicable to agriculture generally. The main instrument of policy for supporting the horticulture industry is the tariff. This Bill, therefore, is not to be considered in any way as a substitute for the tariff but as a supplement to it.
We may now turn to the details of the Bill. Part I provides for grants for horticultural improvements. In a sense, this could be called the counterpart, for horticulture, of the Farm Improvement Scheme for agriculture which was introduced in 1957 and is proving so successful. It is not possible, however, merely to make an extension of that scheme to cover horticulture, for the objectives are different. The Farm Improvement Scheme is clearly anchored to the land. No operation can qualify under that scheme which does not carry long-term benefits to agricultural land. This is not applicable to a wide range of desirable improvements for horticulture. One has only to think of pot plants or glasshouse production to realise why this must be so.
Again, I must emphasise that these improvement grants for horticulture are not designed primarily to increase output but rather to improve the presentation and marketing of the produce. This is, of course, an enabling Bill, enabling a scheme to be laid, but I think you Lordships may find it convenient if I briefly refer to some of the provisions which will be included in the scheme which we hope to lay before Parliament very shortly, and which were mentioned in some detail in the White Paper to which I have referred. That showed that the kind of items which will qualify for grant are, for instance, the erection of buildings for washing and grading horticultural produce, packing sheds, loading bays, and improvements of that nature. The White Paper also envisaged that we intended to make an entirely new departure in that we propose to make grants

811
for certain plant and equipment which will go inside buildings: that proposal is quite dissimilar to other grant-aid schemes. For instance, we can grant-aid the provision of washing and grading machines, conveyors, coolers and plant of that kind; and we do so because these things help growers to improve the presentation and marketing of their produce.
Perhaps one of the most important items which will be eligible for grant aid is storage facilities—cool chambers for short-term storage and cold stores or gas stores for long-term storage for such fruits as apples and pears. Further, we propose to assist growers who already have glasshouses equipped with heating to modernise their heating system, for everybody must surely realise how wasteful of fuel and labour out-of-date boilers and pipe layouts can be. Again, we propose to aid the provision of what is called "ancillary" glass for the smaller producer. The provision of a small glasshouse can add very appreciably to the economic soundness of such a small business. It enables a grower to spread the growing and marketing of his crop over a longer period. It can reduce his dependence on bought-in planting material and, not the least important, can provide him with useful work when the weather is too bad for him to work out of doors. Your Lordships will see from these details that our proposals are flexible and liberal; and though, as I have said, they are not designed to increase the volume of production and output, we thought it appropriate to include these special sections along with the main proposals for improving facilities for marketing.
I have spoken so far of some of the things which will be eligible for grant. Another important question is, of course: who will be eligible for grant? In any such scheme as this there have to be arbitrary limits. As in the Small Farmers' Scheme we have had to decide what, in general, is the minimum unit which can provide a living for an average horticulturist. To arrive at this figure we have, of course, taken the advice of our own horticultural and economic experts. Also, we have had most helpful consultations with producers' organisations and representatives, and we have considered the most valuable report of
812
a group that was set up by the National Farmers' Union to study problems of small horticultural businesses.
We finally came to the conclusion that four acres of open land, or its equivalent, should be the limit; and the equivalents are fully set out in paragraph 10 of the White Paper—one-twentieth of an acre of glass house, mushroom house or rhubarb shed or one-quarter of an acre under movable lights or cloches, or for growing watercress, is to be regarded as one acre of open land. Of course, we shall be attacked on this lower limit. No referee ever blew a whistle without some section of the crowd saying it should not have been blown. But we must have a limit and we are not prepared to go into the horrors of a means test—which is the only alternative to an arbitrary limit of this kind—a limit arrived at, however, after careful consideration and discussion.
A point that is important is, can we help those smaller growers who fall below the lower limit? I am delighted to be able to say that we can. They have not been forgotten. Everybody is out to pay lip service to co-operation, but in this Bill we are actively and positively encouraging it. We have decided that growers' marketing co-operatives (the words used in the Bill are horticultural producers' marketing businesses", they are the legal words in the Bill) shall be eligible for grants under this scheme. This means that if an individual grower is below the acreage limit he can join or help to form a co-operative and, along with fellow co-operators, can enjoy the benefits of the grants for improving marketing facilities. The benefits of co-operation among small producers—or large ones, for that matter—are very great in themselves, and therefore we feel that this stimulus to co-operation is very important. I do not for a moment mean—and I have not said—that the only co-operatives eligible for grant will be aggregations of very small businesses. Any co-operative that satisfies the requirements of this Bill will be eligible for grant-aid under this scheme.
I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to Clause 4 and to Clause 5 (2) of this Bill, which provides that the sum of £100,000 will be made available for

813
the general promotion of efficient co-operative horticultural marketing under this Bill. Grants will be made for recruiting and training managers, providing consultant services, and such like matters. This is again a new departure, and your Lordships will, I know, accept this as concrete proof that our policy is deeds, not words, in the promotion of co-operation.
Before I turn from Part I of the Bill, it only remains for me to mention one or two outstanding figures. The total money available will be £8 million, or in certain circumstances £8¼ million; that is in Clause 5. Under the Horticulture Improvement Scheme, the period for submitting applications is to be five years; and grant will be at the rate of one-third of the cost of the work. Standard costs (Clause 3), as in the Farm Improvement Scheme, will be available. That has proved a tremendous help to small farmers, and we hope it will be a great help to small horticulturists; and our estimate is, after making all allowances for part-time holdings and so on, that we think there may be between 25,000 and 35,000 horticultural production businesses in the United Kingdom which may be able to satisfy the conditions of eligibility. Then, again under Clause 4, central co-operative organisations can apply for "management grants" during a six-year period; and the proportion of grant will vary according to the services provided with the programme approved.
Finally, on this Part of the Bill, I would merely say that the scheme will of course mean new work for the Government's advisory services. This matter has naturally been considered most thoroughly and carefully, and we believe that we shall not be placing upon these officers a burden which they will not be able to bear. The technical aspects of the proposals relating to buildings and other fixed equipment will, of course, be dealt with by officers of the Agricultural Land Service, so both the advisory services will be involved in this scheme.
I now turn to Part II of the Bill, it has, it might be said, the effect of carrying this advance in the industry right through to the housewife, which I think is a most important point. If the first Part of the Bill deals with the presentation and preparation for market of the produce by the grower, Part II of the
814
Bill deals with the produce on its way to the consumer through the later stages of marketing. All sections of the industry, producers and distributors, will be represented on the Horticultural Marketing Council. It will also have representatives of the workers, and there will be an independent element. The composition of the Council is set out in Clause 9. I think that perhaps I should draw your Lordships' attention to the fact that the Council will be concerned with all horticultural produce sold in Great Britain, whether home-produced or imported. This extremely wide scope of the Council is necessary, for at least from the wholesale stage onwards home producers use the same channels of trade as importers use. The consumer also has an interest in the efficiency of marketing and distribution of imported produce just as much as in home produce. And the British grower, for his part, is of course interested in information about imports and quantities available and about prices, and this information must be closely linked to market intelligence on home-grown produce. The functions of the Council must, therefore, deal with all horticultural produce.
Those functions are set out in the next clause of the Bill, Clause 10. I think there is not need for me to go through them in detail, but I would pick out, and stress, the fact that all these functions are advisory in character. The Council is not a trading body and does not have any regulatory powers, the only exception to this being that it may trade "by way of experiment or demonstration"—those are the words in the Bill. Power is given to extend the functions of the Council with the consent of Ministers. It is possible that some of your Lordships may have noticed, if they were following the progress of this Bill in another place, that some doubt has been expressed as to whether this would give Ministers power to override the prohibition on trading. I am able to tell your Lordships that this is not the intention, and I propose at a later stage to introduce an Amendment to make this abundantly clear.
I now turn again for a moment to the composition of the Council. Your Lordships will notice that we give equal representation to the three main interests involved: the producers, the wholesalers (who include the importers) and the

815
retailers. The wholesalers, as I say, include the importers. I think at this point I should stress that this is a consultative Council, and if it ever comes to counting heads on this Council instead of putting heads together, the Council will really have failed. Furthermore, one of the main tasks of this Council, at the outset, at any rate, will be to devise means of raising money from the industry. We believe that the three main sections which may have to find their share of the money should be given equal representation during this initial period. We think that this balance will probably prove right all the way through, but I would assure your Lordships that my right honourable friend would not hesitate to ask Parliament's approval, as he can do under Clause 9 (6), to vary the composition of the Council if, in the light of experience, any variation were found to be desirable.
Clause 11 empowers the Ministers to pay the expenses of the Council up to a total of £250,000 over a period of three years. It is quite definitely the intention that thereafter the industry itself must pay for the Council. The method of payment is not laid down in the Bill. This will be for the Council to propose. The Council will have to make a charges scheme that is acceptable to the industry generally, according to the provisions of this clause and of the Second Schedule to the Bill. However, the charges scheme can come into operation only after it has been approved by Parliament.
My Lords, I think that that is almost all I need say, other than to draw your Lordships' attention most particularly—and I must do that before I close—to Clause 15. This will enable the Ministers to set up such an organisation for publicity for home-grown produce as seems to them expedient, and as seems in the national interest. This organisation may cover all home-grown produce, or it may cover just one commodity, or a number of commodities. But it will be set up only if growers want it set up, and then only for those products that they want it to cover. Its members will be growers, and it will be financed by growers. It will finance itself, really, by money raised on its behalf by the Council: it indents on the Council. These provisions, I believe, will fulfil a
816
long-felt want amongst growers of certain products; and in a way these provisions can be held to round off the provisions in Part I.
So, my Lords, I have no hesitation in commending this important Bill to your Lordships. I am glad to say that it has received a wide measure of support in another place and, perhaps even more important, that it has been welcomed by the industry and by the public at large. There can be no doubt that the problems with which it attempts to deal are of great complexity. The proposed horticultural improvement grants, coming, as they will, as an addition to, and not as a substitute for, the tariff, will be of very great assistance to the home producers, and so will the stimulus to co-operation which the Bill gives. The proposed Horticultural Marketing Council will, I am confident, lead to an increase in the efficiency of the marketing of all horticultural produce in this country, whether it is produced at home or imported from overseas. My Lords, I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl Waldegrave.)
4.33 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, we are extremely grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Waldegrave, for his very careful, and in some cases detailed, and at all times lucid, explanation of this Bill. So far as I am concerned, I think the most attractive part of his speech was his sort of "Cook's tour", in which he conducted us all over the country, from carrots to cauliflowers and from rhubarb to raspberries—because that reminded me that this is a most fascinating industry. In fact almost the only good thing about it is its fascination: it does not bring, or has not yet brought, anything much in the way of cash to those who work extremely hard in it.
I am also grateful to the noble Earl for his account of the history of this measure, which is indeed the first that I remember relating strictly to horticulture, although I should not regard it as a major Bill. As he was talking of the Committee presided over by the noble Viscount, Lord Runciman of Doxford, which, as he mentioned, was appointed in 1955, it occurred to me that we are now in 1960 before anything has been

817
done. I am reminded that on Thursday I was speaking from this Box on the subject of coal, which is also a form of horticulture in the past, Where the period that elapsed seems almost as long as that before we got this Bill on horticulture. But I am certainly very glad that we have got this Bill, because during my fifteen years at Westminster I have pressed continuously for Government aid to horticulturists. They are among the hardest-worked and least prosperous people in the whole country. I think that many today have "never had it so bad" since the early 'thirties. Naturally, therefore, we on these Benches welcome a measure designed to effect some improvement, but our welcome is clouded with disappointment at the Bill's several in adequacies.
My three immediate comments are, first, that it provides no direct help at all for more than half of our 70,000 growers—and they are the smallest and the poorest who are most in need of assistance. Secondly, the whole of this £8 million of public money will be entirely wasted unless there is a radical improvement in the system of distribution; and, despite what the noble Earl has said, I am far from being convinced that the provision of the Horticultural Advisory Council, and their powers, are in any way going to bring about an improvement in the distributing system. The third point is that to discuss this Bill without knowing the Government's intentions with regard to the application for increased tariffs is like having Hamlet without the Prince. I was very glad to have the welcome assurance from the noble Earl that the Government adhere to tariffs as the main instrument for providing growers with a reasonable measure of stability, and that we are to regard this Bill not as a substitute for but as an adjunct or addition to tariffs.
But how is this tariff policy being applied? Your Lordships may recall that last November I produced very sad and very convincing evidence with regard to the serious plight of the glasshouse tomato industry, and I urged the Government then, last November, to announce their tariff decision in January, because otherwise the propagation of tomato plants for this coming season would be seriously curtailed. But we are still waiting, on March 7. And last
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Thursday, in another place, replying to urgent pressure from Government Back Benchers, the right honourable gentleman the Minister of State, Board of Trade, said this [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 618, No. 69, col. 1398]:
"I am very glad to give an assurance … that we are fully seized of this matter at both Ministerial and official levels."
My Lords, after waiting for four months the growers believe that the Government are not just seized but are seized up on this issue, because, while improvements in quality, grading and presentation are very important, it will be wasted effort if the market is allowed to become glutted, as it was last summer, with foreign produce selling at about one-third of the cost of home production. We do emphasise, therefore, that the benefits to be derived by horticulturists from this measure are contingent on the Government's raising tariffs so that our growers can have a fair share of the home market.
We have been told by the Government that they aim a three-pronged attack on the problems of horticulture—or, as the noble Earl put it, that they are moving forward in three directions. Of course, that may be a very good thing, providing the directions are all leading the same way. But I am not so sure that they are. Two of the prongs, or two of the directions, are in this Bill, of course—namely, the grants to facilitate the improvements in grading and presentation, and the steps to improve the efficiency and lower the cost of distribution. But the third direction, which the noble Earl mentioned and which will come up in another Bill later, is the improvement of the wholesale market, Covent Garden. If by that is meant that it is to be confined to improvements at Covent Garden, which the Minister has described as the national central market, then the prong is badly bent and moving in the wrong direction altogether. Anyone who knows anything about this problem at all knows that the last thing we want is to send produce to a national central market for reconsignment elsewhere. The noble Earl spoke about goods coming into the market being sold to retailers or neighbouring wholesalers. Very often the "neighbouring wholesalers" prove to be in Liverpool or in Glasgow, or in places all over the

819
country. We must not develop a so-called national central market. That adds inordinately to the cost. We must avoid it by having wholesale markets in the large towns so that growers can send to them direct.
I believe that the Minister of Agriculture and his advisers suffer from two fundamental misconceptions on the subject. First, they refer to grading and presentation as "marketing", and the noble Earl seemed to repeat this. Grading and presentation are only preparation for the market. Surely marketing is the whole process, from the farm gate to the housewife's basket; and in home horticulture production and presentation are not the main difficulty—it is selling. Their second fundamental error is the belief that selling costs are not unduly high. In this view doubtless they are relying on the statement in the Report of the Committee presided over by the noble Viscount, Lord Runciman of Doxford, that:
"The costs of distribution, having regard to the services performed, are not excessive."
But the Committee were referring to the profit margins made by individual retailers and wholesalers. The real cost of distribution is the difference between what the grower gets and what the housewife pays. That is the cost of distribution, and that figure is grossly inflated because of the duplication of wholesaling, and the consequent 'additional profit margins and, above all, additional freight costs and handling charges. In fact, the grower is still getting a very raw deal, which this Bill perpetuates in a considerable degree, because it runs away from the many practical steps which should be taken to put the matter right.
Coming, to the more favourable aspects of the Bill, we sincerely welcome the proposals to provide some £7½ or £8 million to meet one-third of the cost of the various types of improvement specified in the White Paper, some of which the noble Earl mentioned. But I hope that we can regard this as a mere beginning. After all, as a result of Conservative policy—or lack of it—over the last six years, the industry has suffered a £10 million capital loss in one item alone—the decline of 450 acres of glasshouses. Weighed against this, the £7½ million make; it still a bit lopsided.
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The noble Earl said it is anticipated that between 25,000 and 30,000 horticulturists will be able to benefit from these grants. If we take the figure of 30,000 and divide £7½ million by that figure, that works out at £250 a head or, if we take it over the five years' period, just £1 a week for everyone for five years. That is not much of a lifeline for an industry which, according to one Government Back-Bencher in another place, is swimming in its own tears, and according to another, has suffered a 29 per cent. drop in income since 1951. That is a drop in its cash income—a vastly greater drop in its real income.
Then what about the other 40,000 producers who, as the noble Earl has suggested, will be excluded from the provisions of this Bill for various reasons, either because they do not qualify at all or because they do not possess or cannot borrow the other two-thirds of the money to meet the cost of an improvement? I hope that the answer for those 40,000 is that they will be able to join, or form themselves into, a producers' co-operative association and then enjoy collectively the benefits of the grants. This, which I regard as the one imaginative conception in the Bill, is something for which the Government deserve very warm praise. If it is used to the full, as I hope it will be—and I hope that everyone interested in the industry will try to see that it is used to the full—it can prove to be the salvation of the horticultural industry.
We are glad to see also that £100,000 has been set aside for the training and recruitment of managers and the provision of consultancy services, although I regret that the amount is not larger. I hope that the noble Earl will tell us that I am right in thinking that it will be able to be used fairly flexibly and, broadly speaking, to help in preaching the gospel of co-operation. I believe that that is one of the most important things that we have to do. It will not be easy, because so many of the smaller growers are such rugged individualists that they would rather starve alone than prosper together. I know of areas—and my noble friend Lord Wise knows of many others—where there are hundreds of small growers who are in the weakest possible position in selling their crops. A producers' co-operative would not only greatly improve their grading but,

821
by collective selling, based on sound market information, could also ensure a much higher average price for them. The one great danger, of course, is the tendency for these growers to do their own selling when prices are high and use the co-operative only when the market is right on the floor. I would congratulate the Minister on his decision to set up a departmental committee to consider this problem. I hope that they will find a means of overcoming it, perhaps by some form of enforceable contract. It is unfortunate that we should have to do this, but we must face the facts as they are.
We have to convince growers that they are best employed in producing their crops. Preparation for the market is best and cheapest when it can be mechanised collectively, and prices are likely to be better when produce can be offered continuously and in substantial quantities. Producers' associations can also engage in pre-packing. And I regret that this Bill suffers a major defect in that it contains no provision for financing research in this matter. There is an actual prohibition of grants in the White Paper. The provision of pre-packing machinery is definitely excluded from grant, for reasons which are quite beyond me to understand. In the last six years, there has been a fantastic development in the pre-packing of vegetables—from nothing in 1954 to 350 million packs last year. But we are still pre-packing only 8 per cent. of all the ware potatoes sold, and about 1 per cent. of all other vegetables. So there is enormous scope for further development.
In my view, pre-packing outweighs all the drawbacks of the present system of distribution. I know something about this matter, because for 22 years, until I severed my connection with the industry, I was governing director of a firm of wholesalers in the London market. I know what the difficulties of the system are, and I say most sincerely that pre-packing avoids the present defects. The housewife is able to buy branded goods, and she gets clean, fresh vegetables in which the only waste, if there is any, is the peel. They go straight from the packing station to the supermarket or self-service store. Even the smaller retailers can now buy from wholesalers, who can sell on sample. The produce does not incur expensive delay or loss of
822
condition in going to market at all. Now with the great development of producers' co-operatives which becomes possible under this Bill I should hope that there might be a big expansion of direct delivery of pre-packed vegetables. I think the Government should pause before embarking upon any major programme to enlarge existing wholesale markets and before going any further in the direction which the noble Earl mentioned. More markets, yes, but not larger ones, especially since the producers' co-operatives will certainly decide to pre-pack imported produce—and some are doing so already in their own off-season—so that they can keep their customers supplied.
So the fact is that there is going to be this increasing reduction—and quite rightly so—in the amount not only of home-grown produce but of imported produce going to the wholesale markets. It will go direct to the various firms of retailers. Wholesalers are aware of this. They know that pre-packing and the rapid development of supermarkets and self-service stores make the contraction of market trading inevitable. Some now are assisting the change. Last week I performed the opening ceremony at a new pre-packing plant of which the chairman is a leading London wholesaler. The end-year target of this firm is 6 million packs, which represents a vastly greater tonnage than this large firm sells in the two main London markets. I think this rapid growth is welcome, but it will add another problem to the many which will have to be solved by the Horticultural Advisory Council.
The noble Earl said—and I agree with him—that the representatives of the Council must not go there representing sectional interests; that they must work as a team in the interests of the whole community. But it is inevitable that if they are representing producers they will think as producers; if they are representing wholesalers they will think as wholesalers; and if they are retailers they will think as retailers. Superficially, this body will be composed of people with the common interest of producing and selling fruit and vegetables, but, in practice, they will be in conflict on many issues. Importers and producers will not agree easily about the level of the market for indigenous produce; wholesalers will naturally discourage policies designed to

823
put them out of business; and growers and retailers will never see eye to eye about their respective prices.
I have had some experience of the difficulty of persuading these people to adopt common policies. Eleven years ago, believing that their prosperity depended on working together, I drafted the broad outlines of a policy and invited the leading lights from the growers, wholesalers and retailers to dinner here. We had a very good dinner party and a good dinner; and I do not know whether it was the dinner, or something else, but the draft policy was approved by all. They all agreed to go to their respective organisations and ask for authority to proceed further, and we arranged a date for another meeting. The second meeting took place, but this time only two of the bodies were represented. So the effort failed. This does not mean that the Council cannot do useful work. In my view, the Minister was wise to approve the request of my honourable friends in another place to extend the period of the Government's financial responsibility to three years.
I see two interrelated dangers facing the Council. The first is that their powers may be insufficient to enable them to achieve enough to convince growers that the benefits to be gained justify the levy they will have to pay. Indeed, the Council has no regulatory powers, as the noble Earl made clear. They have the power to make good resolutions, to give good advice and to levy charges. And we have this afternoon been threatened, as it were, with an Amendment on the Committee stage to make it absolutely certain that this poor body will not be allowed to do anything which approaches trading. I should like the noble Earl to let us know, when he comes to reply, what it is that the Government are afraid of. Do they think that a body composed as this one is to be composed is going to engage in selling fruit and vegetables, or that anyone wants them to? What we are concerned about is that this prohibition on trade may prevent the Advisory Council from doing anything useful at all. Will it, for example, be allowed to provide collection and packing centres on a non-profit-making basis? Could they run a teleprinter market intelligence service? Could they, under that little enlargement that was made to Clause 9
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in another place, apply to the Minister for the exercise of additional functions? Would it cover, for example, the provision of a common container service?
I wonder whether the noble Earl (if I may use the expression used in another place) is fully seized of the importance of a common container service? Imagine loads of greenstuff coming into the London markets, or fruit, or anything else, all in the containers of the different wholesalers, who each have their own; the commission buyers buy on the London markets and the produce is reconsigned—and some time ago it was admitted at Covent Garden that as much as 40 per cent. of the produce was so re-consigned—and goes up, as I have said, as far as Glasgow. It may be 12 months before the wholesaler gets his empties back. But if we had a common container service, which could be supplied by the Council or even manufactured by the Council, not only would it probably be cheaper, but the empties could always be returned to the nearest market and thence to the growers. It would mean an enormous saving. Just those two things, the common container service and a market intelligence service, might persuade growers that the Council was worth the levy.
If, through lack of powers, the Council fails to prove itself, and especially if there is no major development of producers' co-operatives, we shall be faced with the situation that tens of thousands of small growers, while getting no benefit at all, either by grants or otherwise, will be required to pay a levy. They, and I am sure we, would rightly regard that as paying money for nothing. Yet non-compliance might involve them in fines or even imprisonment; and they are very poor men. This would be an intolerable position, and a heavy responsibility rests upon both the Government and the Council to ensure that it does not arise. No matter how or from whom the levy is actually collected, the growers will in fact pay the whole amount that is raised out of home-grown produce. It does not matter whether the wholesaler or the retailer "chips in" with his share, the whole of it must come out of what the grower eventually receives. Those of us who have had dealings with them over the years know that in any case agreement is going to be difficult; and if the Government fail the industry

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over tariffs, or the Advisory Council fails to demonstrate its value beyond all doubt to the growers, then agreement will be impossible and the Council and this Act will be a nullity.
In another place this Bill was described on one side of the House, the Government side, as a bad Bill, and as a tinkering little Bill on the other side, the Opposition side. Our criticisms here, though less drastic, are none the less well founded, and our welcome therefore appropriately restrained. For this reason we shall endeavour in Committee to improve the sections we have criticised. Horticulture, roughly one-fifth of agriculture, unsubsidised and virtually unsupported, is one of the last bastions of private enterprise. Nevertheless, it has been neglected by every Government since the war. I say quite frankly that, despite our criticisms, the Minister merits our thanks for at least trying to do something and, despite our doubts, we wish the Bill well.
5.1 p.m.
LORD AMHERST OF HACKNEY: My Lords, I find myself in agreement with a great deal that has been said by the noble Lord who has just sat down. I welcome this Bill. As the noble Lord has said, it is two of the three prongs of the Government's policy. We have yet to see the third prong, but we welcome these two, the grants and the marketing council. We must also welcome the assurance the noble Earl gave that the mainstays of the industry are the tariffs, and that this is in no way a substitute. There is no doubt at all that on the question of tariffs there is a great deal of anxiety at the moment in the industry. As the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, said, the industry is facing fierce competition from abroad. In the old days it used to be said that there were three easy ways of losing money—racing, women and farming. Racing was the quickest, women was the pleasantest and farming was the most certain. But, of course, that does not apply to-day. There is still a certain amount of risk and gambling in horticulture, as I have found over a number of years, to my cost. I have a great admiration for those people—and there are many—who make a good and successful living out of horticulture. But there are a great many who have a diffi-
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cult struggle to keep their heads above water, and I have great sympathy with I them.
We must all welcome the grants scheme, which I am sure will do much to help producers to present their produce for market in a better way, and to store it so that it can be brought forward more regularly. We must have a little patience for this scheme, because it comes forward—and I should be the last person to suggest it should be postponed—on April 1, at a time when the horticultural officers of the agricultural executive committees are at the busiest season, and the Agricultural Land Service, who are already dealing with the Farm Improvement Scheme, find that there is an increase in work under that scheme. Many of these schemes will be very complicated. They will involve not only the horticultural officers but also, unlike the Farm Improvement Scheme, machinery, which means that more expert advice will be required and more people needed to inspect it. All of that can be overcome, but I think it is a point people must remember, and they must not be too impatient and expect results too quickly, because I am sure that all the services will naturally do their best.
There is one fear which I am not the best person to express, and that is the fear of the small producer that in some cases he will not be able to find the two-thirds of the money necessary. Many of these men have been going through a very lean time, and when it comes to borrowing money horticulture is a fairly risky business. We must see what happens. Certainly under the Farm Improvement Scheme I think, on the whole, it has worked fairly satisfactorily. But there is one particular case, and that is where you have a small producer and there is the question of putting up, say, a glasshouse to enable him to produce his own plants and to extend his growing season. I wonder whether that is a case which might be looked at.
I welcome the fact that the co-operatives are to be eligible for the grants. I do not think that co-operation is the answer to every problem, by any means. In the past, many of the co-operatives have run into a considerable amount of difficulty, particularly where they have tried in, say, a scattered area to give too

827
large a service to their growers, and have tried to collect too small quantities of produce over too large a distance. There has also been the tendency, which the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, mentioned, that when markets are good the stuff goes straight to the market, and when times are difficult the stuff is handed to the cooperative and they are asked to sell it on a very difficult market.
I welcome the Departmental Committee which is being set up to look into the relationships between the grower and the co-operative, because it seems to me that much will depend on the successful outcome of this problem. After all, we have these big new markets, like the supermarkets, and all this direct selling, and also the big departmental stores. Unless the co-operatives can rely on the produce coming in, it is almost impossible for them to make contracts ahead with the customers. If at any time many of their growers fall down on their contracts, then it may mean that the co-operative loses very valuable markets indeed. I feel sure that there is a great future in the co-operatives, particularly for the small grower and especially in small areas where there are many growers.
I also welcome the Horticultural Marketing Council, because although I think, as the Runciman Committee said in their wise Report, that probably the system of marketing is reasonably efficient and that none of the people who perform services in fact charge too much for their services, in the end, under that scheme of distribution, it is the producer who bears all the risks; all the other people in that chain are buying with knowledge of the market, knowing where they can sell. Anything that the Horticultural Marketing Council can do to improve the marketing, to reduce the transport and to standardise packs so that produce can be sent to its destination without going through the markets, anything they can do to decrease the cost of marketing, will be of enormous value to the producer.
I feel that the three years that the Council has before it are very important ones. I am not so worried about the various numbers representing each of the various sides of the industry, because the fact of the matter is that if they serve a useful purpose—and unless they all work together as one body they
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will not serve a useful purpose; they must get together; they cannot divide into separate watertight compartments—and produce something that is really worth while for the industry, then I do not think there will be any difficulty in getting the producers and the other bodies to pay for the Council in future. It all depends on their getting down to it and doing some useful work in the next three years. I think this is an important and useful Bill which should be a great help to the industry, but I hope that it is only the beginning of a new deal for horticulture.
5.13 p.m.
EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, the diffidence with which I rise to address your Lordships is extremely genuine, because on the subjects of which I know little there are always so many of your Lordships who know a great deal more and have a great deal more skill and practice in exposition. I will start by declaring an interest. I have a small fruit farm, a mixed farm, in the Cotswolds overlooking the Evesham Vale. I have little experience of many of the diverse sides of horticulture which have already been explained to you this afternoon, and I can speak with no knowledge whatever of flowers, and with very little of vegetables. Most of my remarks will be on the subject of apples, and in that connection I should like to call the attention of any of your Lordships who are sufficiently interested in the details to the excellent publication in the British Farmer by the N.F.U. last October. It is full of interesting facts and a great many figures which are all very relevant to the present discussion. I will not, however, attempt to burden you with them to-day.
I certainly welcome the £8 million which is being given to the horticultural industry, and I hope to get a very small slice of it myself. We horticulturists feel that for a long time we have been the "poor relations" of agriculture. The difficulties which confronted any Government in producing a scheme of help for us have been enormous. The Minister has already detailed the complexities of the growing, the marketing and everything else in that connection. In this country we grow much the best fruit in the world, but we eat far less than other countries do. Only 83 per cent. of the population of this country

829
eat apples at all, and in the aggregate we eat only about one-third of what most of the Continental countries eat. Not only that, but in the case of apples we eat none of the by-products. In Germany, Switzerland and other countries apple juice is drunk on a large scale, but so far attempts to make and market it satisfactorily in this country have been a relative failure.
I am not altogether sure that this grant of £7½ million to the growers is the best means of tackling this problem. The housewife needs a great deal more education. We growers cannot educate her because we do not meet her. The greengrocers in this country who market our produce are in many cases very badly informed about what they sell. I have often been into a greengrocer's shop and been given completely wrong information as to what they were trying to sell: and one cannot altogether blame them. They sell what is easiest, which in many cases is foreign produce because it is just that much better presented. The reason the foreign produce is so much better presented is largely that it all goes through a central channel where there is one pack and one grade, and only the best comes to this country. One can often see excellent examples of the less well-known variety of apple in the shops selling for far less than very inferior Italian stuff which is only specious and has a skin like leather.
The question of tariffs has already been touched on and it is most welcome to all horticulturists to hear that we are not to regard the present Bill as an alternative to tariffs. Much more, I feel, could be done by advertising. There is the old slogan, "An apple a day keeps the doctor away", which to my mind is just as good a slogan as that a certain drink "is good for you". On the question of advertising there is a conspicuous case. Within the last two or three years, a comparatively small and not well-known firm of producers of a fruit drink increased their profits last year from a few hundred thousand pounds to over £2 million. That was all done by advertising. But it has got to be done on a big scale. Recently the N.F.U. appealed for £30,000 to advertise certain varieties of apple. Many of us failed to support that appeal because we considered £30,000 quite inadequate, as I think it is.
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I feel convinced that the marketing should all be done centrally and should not be left to the individual. I will come presently to what I have discovered happens in France. I do not feel altogether happy with the present move to encourage the growers to buy more expensive plant, such as cold stores and more graders, because so many holdings may well be over-capitalised. There are many things which have attracted me, many of which I have rejected because I could see that the expensive equipment would be idle for so much of the year. In that connection there is the question of cold storage. Cold stores are very expensive. If the cold storage could be concentrated there would be a good prospect of the space being leased to butchers and the like for a large proportion of the year when it was not wanted for horticultural products.
Another point which I think is important, too, is the question of processing. It is conspicuous that the blackcurrant trade in this country is an easy one. That is entirely due to five weeks of total crop being taken by one firm for processing, so that there is never any surplus to knock the market to pieces. On this question of processing, I went on the principle that no problem confronts one for the first time which has not confronted other people, and I made it my business to find out what happens in France. I have not had the opportunity of having a trip over there, nor do I think it would serve any useful purpose at this time of the year. But the French Embassy have been extremely useful and, with your Lordships' leave, I will give your Lordships the result of some notes which I have obtained from them. They have an enormous over-production of wine which is not of sufficient quality to market; and they also have an enormous production of cider apples. Their dessert and cooking apples are no problem because they are slightly under-produced. In the Departments of the North-West and West it is estimated that the production of cider apples is about 12 million quintals—I have ascertained that a quintal is approximately 1 cwt. Of that 12 million, about 5 million are consumed locally, much of it by the growers themselves. Little cider is drunk in the rest of France. The only export from France of cider or cider fruit is

831
to this country, and that amounts to an average of about 25,000 hectolitres.
The size of the plantations in France is probably rather smaller than ours, and many of them are very small. The Government scheme allows every grower to keep an amount, based on the number of his trees, for his own consumption and for peddling locally. Everything in excess of the Government figure has to go to licensed wholesalers. A small fee is payable by the grower, but it is by no means onerous. The price of the apples, and of any cider they make which is sent to the licensed wholesalers, is fixed by the Government, and it is a worthwhile price—in fact, it has tended to increase production. Many of the licensed wholesalers are cider makers and also distillers. They distil a certain amount of Calvados, which we might possibly do in this country, and the rest of the surplus cider is distilled into industrial alcohol which is taken by the Government. This represents only a small proportion of the total industrial alcohol, which in France is a Government monopoly. Admittedly, the price which it costs the Government in France is not very cheap—it is about 70 francs per litre, which is perhaps twice the cost at which industrial alcohol can Abe distilled in this country.
It occurs to me that that is a most convenient way in which the Government can subsidise the horticulturists. If there is anything in this theory, then the present Horticulture Board is not going to go anything like far enough. I am in considerable sympathy with much that the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has said, and I would make the following suggestions: that there should be an Apple Marketing Board; that all apples, except those sold locally, should, as in France, go to the Marketing Board; that the Board, as in the case of the Egg and the Milk Marketing Boards, should operate through existing firms and that all produce should be sold through the Board. Packing and grading, and, still more, pre-packaging, I should like to see done by the Board. Those I regard as factory jobs, which can be done much better, much more uniformly and more cheaply when done on a large scale, by somebody with a cold store, as I have already explained. Such an Apple Marketing Board would sell
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virtually all the apples for the country, and that would enable a recent development in marketing in this country to be much more equally distributed. Multiple stores and big stores have recently been buying direct from the grower and, rather naturally, they go to the tycoons, while the small man, and even the medium man, does not get any advantage at all. If those stores had to go to the Apple Marketing Board that Board could sell to the stores the produce of the little man, the medium man and the big man. That would be much more equitable for all concerned.
I have already detained your Lordships too long, but there are just one or two other points that I should like to raise. If your Lordships will cast your minds back to last Christmas you may remember receiving some very special advertisements for Alsace plums, Carlsbad plums and glace fruit—and no doubt the luckier of us received a present of some. There is very little doubt that some of those things could be produced in this country, though probably the turnover is not sufficient to make a fuss about. When we come to the homely prune, however, we find that some attempt has been made to investigate prunes in this country, so far unsuccessfully.
On this subject also the French Embassy have been very helpful to me. I gather that the production of prunes is rather a local thing, carried out, for the most part, in the Gironde. It is largely a cottage industry, and for many years it was the practice to dry the plums in the sun. More recently, drying has been done in ovens or kilns, and there is now a considerable know-how about it. But to my mind there is no reason why we should not do something of the same here. The French have by no means a monopoly in prunes. The United States are the biggest producers, and prunes are also produced in Alsace and in Yugoslavia. Every country in South America produces prunes. As for the difficulty of producing them I can only tell your Lordships that a lady who, unfortunately, has since died habitually used to produce her own prunes by drying them in her linen cupboard.
On the question of marketing, I suggest that it is barely worth while having a central market. The opinion of the

833
noble Lord, Lord Stonham, from his deep experience, is obviously extremely valuable on this point. I should have thought that the London market could be supplied perfectly well from such places as Brentford and half a dozen similar markets round the outskirts of London. That should suffice. Though I have no experience, I believe I am right in saying that one of the chief functions of the central market at Covent Garden is to distribute imported foreign produce; and I see no reason whatever why foreign agents, who presumably would be at the ports, should not arrange their own distribution throughout the country. I apologise for detaining your Lordships so long over so little.
5.35 p.m.
LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL: My Lords, I am glad to have the task of congratulating the noble Earl, Lord Fortescue, who is a very old friend, on his maiden speech, which has been so well informed and quite outstanding in its scope and the amount of research undertaken for it. I am sure your Lordships' welcome will be all the warmer Owing to the fact that the noble Earl is taking an active part in this House where his brother was for so long such a respected figure; and I am certain you will agree with me in hoping that we shall often hear from the noble Earl again.
When my noble friend introduced the Second Reading of this Bill, he began by enumerating some of the places and districts where horticulture was carried on. I should like to increase the geographical scope of that list by reminding your Lordships that bulb growing is also carried on in the Island of Tiree, in the Hebrides, which is a very long way away. I welcome this Bill. It has been covered in a general way so thoroughly by noble Lords who have already spoken that I will confine myself to various points arising out of the Bill itself.
Dealing with Part I, like other noble Lords I should have preferred, if it were possible, to make a grant of 50 per cent. to small growers. I am not entirely certain that the reason given in another place—that it makes for such administrative complications as to be impracticable—is really absolutely sound; and I hope that Her Majesty's Government will take note of what was said by my
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noble friend Lord Amherst of Hackney that this point might well be reconsidered later, after more experience had been gained. I appreciate that the position in relation to both the small grower and the large grower (though probably the smaller man will be most affected) has been eased by an important Amendment which was introduced on the Report stage, the Minister's estimate being taken as the figure upon which a grant would depend, so that if, by economic working and careful planning, a man reduced his final cost below the estimated cost—and indeed below the £100 figure—he would still be eligible for one-third of what he had actually spent. I believe I am right there.
There was also the question raised by my noble friend Lord Amherst of Hackney of standard costs, These are, of course, of the greatest help to the small grower, but there is another aspect beyond that mentioned by my noble friend, in that in agriculture, where they have been extremely valuable, they are based, as a rule, on simple, easily-costed buildings. In horticulture many applications for grant on standard costs may be based on much more complicated erections, including, as my noble friend has said, the installation of modern heating, soil-heating and other such things. I hope that the standard cost arrangement will be sufficiently flexible to cover what may be a great variety of detailed installations.
May I come to Clause 4? This could be a very important clause, for many of the practices which were so clearly explained by my noble friend Lord Fortescue depend very largely on having a skilled man to manage and organise them. This grant may train managers really to know their job. I think that a great many difficulties have had to be faced in the past by horticulturists who, however professional they are at the actual growing, are almost amateurs in the field of grading and marketing. These difficulties have meant that they have not been as successful as they should be, and they could surely be successful if the business were in the charge of a trained manager.
So far as the administering of the grants and the working out of those eligible for grants are concerned, I was very glad to see in the Scotsman newspaper this morning an article about the

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importance of the Agricultural Central Co-operative Association, and what an important part they will have to play. There is no doubt that unless this Association is a real, going concern it will not be able to get into Scotland the right proportion of the grants which would be Scotland's due.
To turn to Part II of the Bill, the usefulness of the Marketing Council, as was pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, with whom I entirely agree, will depend absolutely on whether its members take a really objective view of their task and work as a combined body for the good of the industry as a whole. The industry has always had difficulties with the very diverse component parts of it working at intervals by no means in unison; and this Council, if it has to work, as I hope it will, should have a very important impact on this. The functions of the Council, given in Clause 10, cover a very wide field indeed. There are two points on those functions about which I am not quite clear. I am wondering, although it is not actually part of the Bill, how this Council will send out its information and suggestions to the various sections of the industry. Will they be sent out as large exhortations on paper, which probably will not be read, or will there be any possibility of a breakdown of the personnel of the Council to facilitate the convening of conferences at which their suggestions can be considered and discussed? That might be a useful way of working if it were at all practicable; I am not sure.
The other point I was wondering about was whether the Council, which is largely an advisory Council, will be able to advise on the setting up of marketing co-operatives. It seems that that comes within the scope of its numerous functions, and I wonder whether that would be any particular part of its proposed work. My Lords, with those few words covering the points about which I am not certain—and especially the point, if I may reinforce it again, concerning Clause 4, to make quite sure that in Scotland we receive the full benefits of any help that is contemplated under the Bill—I hope your Lordships will give the Bill a Second Reading.
5.45 p.m.
LORD NETHERTHORPE: My Lords, may I at the outset associate myself with
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the noble Lord, Lord Stratheden and Campbell, in extending to the noble Earl, Lord Fortescue, the congratulations that his speech this afternoon merits. We were gratified indeed to see him, in the observations that he has made in this House this afternoon, drawing on the broad experience that he personally has in the practical field. I should like also to thank the noble Earl, Lord Waldegrave, for his comprehensive introduction of this Bill. He has given the industry certain very much-needed reassurances, for which I am sure they, the growers, will be appreciative.
Broadly, I should say that the horticultural growers in the United Kingdom support the Bill in its broad concept. The provisions in Part I for payment of grants
"towards the cost of improvements for the purposes of horticultural production businesses and horticultural producers' marketing businesses in the United Kingdom,"
and towards the cost of promotional work in connection with producers' marketing businesses, are certainly most welcome. The contribution of one-third grant, however, presupposes a financial resilience in the horticultural industry, which is required to put up two-thirds of the requisite amount of the cost of any project in order to qualify for the one-third grant that is provided for in the Bill. This could well cause the industry to have to find something like £15 million or £16 million over the period from its own resources, either private resources or through such credit as may be available to it.
My Lords, the declining net income of the horticultural industry through increasing costs, such as labour and fuel costs, which they have had to sustain over the years, coupled with declining market returns, ill-equip it to find its two-thirds share of the whole in order to qualify for these grants. Growers in the industry are naturally anxious to meet the challenge to improve the productivity of the industry—and your Lordships will note that I said "productivity", and not necessarily production—presentation and marketing of their produce. It is imperative, however, in my view, that there should be a fair return from a stable horticultural industry to make this at all possible.
The objective of a stable and efficient horticultural industry is, of course,

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inherent in the Agriculture Act, 1947—at least, the obligation to provide it is inherent in the Agriculture Act, 1947; and successive Governments (and the noble Earl again in speaking for the Government this afternoon has repeated it) have given the assurance to the horticultural industry that the chosen instrument to give effect to this undertaking of security and stability is support for it through the means of tariff protection. Tariffs on the major range of horticultural produce have remained unchanged since December, 1953. There have been minor variations, perhaps, but broadly they have remained unchanged. Since then, however, the combined effects of a rapid increase in labour and fuel costs, which I have referred to before, and other costs, and a fall in the value of money, have far outpaced the industry's steadily and progressively increasing efficiency.
My Lords, it is incumbent on Her Majesty's Government so to revise upwards the level of duties as to take account of these relative factors, and to create the requisite economic stability on which alone we can go forward in progressive policy. Whilst I warmly welcome the reassurance which the noble Earl, Lord Waldegrave, has given us in your Lordships' House this afternoon, I am bound to say that merely to testify that the tariff is your chosen instrument is not enough unless you act upon it and in fact upwardly revise the tariff to keep pace with these changes in the costs to the agricultural producer.
Whilst welcoming the grants provisions, therefore, I cannot emphasise too strongly that they cannot in any way be regarded as a substitute for effective import regulations by the best means so far available, particularly for perishable commodities like horticultural commodities—namely, an adequate level of specific tariff. Now if we were fortunate in being able to have available to us the provisions that were announced recently in France, whereby no importation of horticultural products was permitted into France at less than the support prices prevailing, of course life would be much easier for the United Kingdom horticulturists. But against the background of a free market, and the progressive reduction of quotas, an adequate level of specific tariff is the only effective means of giving support to the
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industry and of implementing the assurance implicit in Part I of the Agriculture Act.
The grants provisions, by and large, do for horticulture what the Farm Improvement Scheme does for agriculture. But, of course, the proposals implicit in the White Paper cover a much wider field, and I believe rightly so, because horticulture has a particularly and peculiarly difficult marketing problem. Competition from imports, for instance, becomes fiercer every day. I was interested to hear represented in your Lordships' House by more than one of the speakers that we have to market the produce that is grown here, whatever its quality, in one form or another, whereas the imported product, coming through the bottleneck of the port, is obviously more easy of control, and, of course, a country is not likely to export a quality of product that cannot command a better price. So, from the point of view of the use of grants to improve marketing, we obviously welcome every facility that can be afforded.
So far as the small producers are concerned, I recognise that there has been the necessity to draw the line somewhere. The noble Earl talked about the popularity or otherwise of the referee. I am tempted to remind him of an occasion when, out of the depths of a Rugby scrum, after the referee had told the players that there was too much talking and that there were too many referees, the voice of anonymity said, "Yes, and you are not the pick of them". It is therefore a question of whether, in drawing the line, we necessarily pick the right line—or, indeed, preclude cases deserving of assistance. Arbitrary standards are always vulnerable, of course, to the difficulty of complaint about hardship, and so forth. I believe it is right that Government money should be used for projects designed to help horticultural businesses capable of producing a sufficient livelihood for the occupier; but in horticulture, I would say even more than in agriculture, acreage size can be a misleading criterion of viability. After all, an intensively run holding of an acre and a half can sometimes produce more than a holding of three times that size if it is on a particular type of production. Growers are, therefore, I think, very anxious that the right honourable gentleman the Minister of Agriculture

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should at least have discretion, even though the holding may fall below the minimum qualifying size limit in the scheme, to make grants available where he and his advisers are satisfied that the business is, first, a full-time holding, capable of yielding a reasonable livelihood, and, second, can become economically viable, or is already so.
So far as the Horticultural Marketing Council is concerned, I have noted with interest many of the comments that noble Lords have made in this debate. I am of the opinion—as, indeed, are many growers—that the collective efforts of the various sections of the Horticultural Marketing Council, if properly directed, should be able to produce something positive and objective in the way of proposals to improve the marketing of horticultural produce. I am very gratified that Her Majesty's Ministers agreed to incorporate in the Bill the extension of the period of time under which the Government should fund the operation of this Council from two years to three years. However, I want to issue one word of warning.
In the experience that will be accumulated in the three years between now and then, always provided that every effort is made to make it a positive contribution to the improvement of the horticultural industry in its broadest sense, I want to feel sure that the ultimate concept of funding the Council's future work will be based on a decision of all the members of the Council and not on a decision of the majority, especially when the sections are divided, as they are, as to seven wholesalers and importers, seven retailers and seven producers, with four members nominated by the Minister. We could have a situation in which the minority could easily be exploited if, instead of all the members of the Council, the majority agreed on the form of the funding of its future work. I feel, my Lords, that, broadly, this Bill is a welcome sign of the active interest of Her Majesty's Government in the future of what I believe is already, and can be still more so, a progressive and efficient horticultural industry. It is in that spirit that I welcome the Bill to-day.
5.59 p.m.
LORD WISE: My Lords, first of all it is my pleasure from this side of the
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House to congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Fortescue, heartily on his maiden speech. It was most interesting, and he spoke from a wealth of experience. I was particularly struck by his reference to advertising, and in this connection I might say that he has already delivered part of what I wanted to say. I am convinced that advertising should play an important part, and a more important part still, in horticulture. It seems to me that foreign produce is acceptable in this country mainly because of the great advertising power behind it. That applies not only to horticultural produce but to other imports as well. I hope that the noble Earl will speak many times on farming and horticulture. We shall always welcome him for what he has to say, as we welcome him in remembrance of his fine and amiable brother, whom we all respected.
It seems to me that there is a welcome for this Bill, though perhaps with modifications, in your Lordships' House. I think we must all welcome something which will make for confidence in the industry and for a fair reward for those who work in it. Reorganisation and improvement in horticulture is long overdue, and for that reason I think that we must give readily a Second Reading to this Bill. It is acceptable to us as a palliative, but we must remember that the difficulties of the industry are too deep-rooted for effective solution by the operation of this Bill alone. Indeed, that has been admitted by the Minister in another place, who did not claim otherwise. In some respects, this Bill is unique. I do not think that within the memory of any of us has there been a Bill which has been so much amended in Standing Committee and on Report in another place. We on this side of the House are pleased with the Amendments, many of which originated with us. We shall have certain Amendments to put before your Lordships on the Committee stage of the Bill and I hope that the noble Earl will be as kind to us as his honourable friend was to the Opposition in another place.
The Bill did not receive unqualified support from members of the Party opposite, and I noticed particularly that certain disagreements were voiced by Members of another place who live their lives in the same part of the country as I do. In the Fen Country, there are many

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smallholders engaged in horticulture, and there is certainly a feeling among them that this is a large horticulturists' Bill and that the small men will not be advanced very materially.
I do not propose to weary your Lordships with a long speech—there are three other Bills to be dealt with after this one—but there are one or two points which I wish to make which fall within the compass of this Bill. First, I want to speak about grants, a subject which has been dealt with by most of the speakers this afternoon. I wish to refer to the position of the part-timer. If the White Paper definition of qualifications is followed, it seems to me that sometimes a smallholder who has a part-time holding cannot come within the scope of this Bill. He may possibly have sufficient land, but not all horticultural land, and may wish to improve his holding by erecting greenhouses, or, if he has poor land, by drainage; but if he is a part-timer, it seems to me that he cannot participate in the benefits of this Bill, whereas, if he could obtain a grant, he could carry out an improvement and then conic within the scope of the Bill. It might be argued that he could join a co-operative society, but he may not be near enough to any co-operative organisation which may be set tip to get such benefit from it.
The question of the one-third grant and two-thirds payment has also been mentioned. Like many other noble Lords, I think that some further consideration should be given to the small man in regard to this matter. Two-thirds is an appreciable amount of money for a smallholder to find, even for a larger horticulturist to find. I wonder whether the Government have had any negotiations whatever with the banks or other financial institutions about providing loans—because in many cases the money will have to be found by loan—to cover the two-thirds which must be found by the person carrying out the improvement.
I would refer the noble Earl to Clause 2 (2) of the Bill, dealing with grant payable on work carried out on other land. According to that subsection, it is possible for the Minister to hold up for at least five years the payment of instalments for work carried out by a co-operative society. I am advised that this may prove to be a
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hardship to many existing societies who have been registered under the Industrial and Provident Societies Act and that it might be considered to be unfair. I gather that the view of the Government is that if improvements are made or buildings are erected on land which is not at present used for horticulture, in the course of time the society might go out of business and the buildings which had been grant-aided might then be put to other use. If the grant is held up for five years, as is envisaged in the Bill, then the society itself will already have paid for the building and will be out of its reimbursement for a period of five years. This seems to me to be somewhat unfair, particularly in regard to an established society, and I hope that some amendment may be made to it.
Further in regard to the question of the co-operative societies, I realise that the matter of the £100,000 which is set aside for advance is a financial matter and possibly cannot be amended in your Lordships' House, but I would say that, in my view, this is insufficient for the purpose for which it is to be set aside. If I break down that figure a little, I think your Lordships will agree that it does not appear to be adequate. One hundred thousand pounds is one-eightieth part of the £8 million set aside for the grants; that is, only a fraction over 1 per cent. For that reason, I think it is a meagre allowance. Moreover, that £100,000 may be extended over six years, and six into £100,000 is a matter of £16,000 a year, which seems to me to be a very small amount if you wish to encourage, as according to the Bill you do, the promotion of a large number of horticultural co-operative societies.
Another matter I should like to refer to is the question of equipment, dealt with in Clause 1 (3) of the Bill. I should like an assurance from the Minister that certain equipment which is used in the packing houses will be included in the Bill for grant aid. If your Lordships refer to page 11 of the White Paper you will find that specified types of conveyors—which, I take it, are far transporting the products from one point to another—come within Part III of the improvements. I am advised that in certain operations fork-lift trucks and pallets are used, but according to what was said in another place these are not included in the Bill. Certain horticultural co-operative societies are using this

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particular type of equipment, and I hope that the Minister will be able to reconsider what was said in another place and bring them within the scope of the Bill.
The question of sage and the drying of herbs was also raised in another place, and I am asked to stress that some reconsideration should be given in your Lordships' House to this operation. Clause 8 (5) makes reference to the preparation for market, and it does not include certain processes. The process I wish to refer to is the heat process. I am advised that certain functions in the preparation of sage (which is a well-known product) for market have reference to the use of heat. This is a well recognised operation, and it is hoped that the Minister will be able to reconsider what was said in another place.
I now come to a point which I think is most material and which has been referred to several times already. It is said that there are two prongs to this Bill and that a third one is likely to be produced; and the two are the grant aid and the setting up of the Horticultural Marketing Council. Irrespective of the change in operation which may come about in regard to Covent Garden, the third prong in which I wish to put my faith is the question of import control. I am sure that the full benefit of this Bill will not be felt by horticulturists unless the Government take immediate steps to control, by one means or another, the import of products from overseas which can be grown in equal quality in this country.
I have made reference to the Fen Country. Last year we had great difficulty in regard to strawberry pulp; and we had difficulty there and elsewhere in regard to tomatoes. That may happen again unless the action envisaged by my noble friend Lord Netherthorpe and others is brought into operation within a reasonable time. During only the, last few days, I have received a visit from a small strawberry grower in the Fen Country who last year could not market two acres of strawberries; there was no market for them. He was under not an obligation, but perhaps a gentleman's agreement, to sell them to a certain firm of horticultural product merchants. At the commencement of the season he bought his fertilisers from that particular firm. But they
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could not take his strawberries, and nobody else would take them. They went into the open market, and at the end of time he was not in pocket, but on every chip of strawberries he sold he lost 1½d. That is not much per chip, but on two acres it is most material. That particular smallholder is now faced with a county court judgment for the fertilisers with which the firm supplied him, he is faced with the payment of £10 an acre rent for his land, and he is faced with bankruptcy at the end of it. That sort of thing should not happen in any properly regulated industry, and for that reason I hope the Government will not only implement this Bill but will also bring into operation other matters. Might I say to the noble Earl that it is our intention on this side of the House to put down certain Amendments to various clauses in the Bill. As I said at the commencement, I hope that the Minister will treat us as kindly as the Opposition was treated in another place.
6.21 p.m.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, I am glad that your Lordships have given this Bill a welcome from all sides of the House. It may interest your Lordships if I make a small announcement before I try to answer some of the points raised. My right honourable friend has stated in another place this afternoon that it is his intention, when the necessary powers have been conferred, to invite Mr. David Bowerman to become the Chairman of the Horticultural Marketing Council. Although Mr. Bowerman has been engaged in 'the horticultural industry, he has informed my right honourable friend that he is prepared to take the necessary steps to make himself eligible for the appointment by making himself independent of the industry. I believe that this appointment will be widely welcomed by the industry, and I thought your Lordships would like to hear this direct.
The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, in a speech full of information raised several interesting points. He welcomed the Bill, and I greatly appreciate his generosity in what he said about our endeavours to assist co-operation. He asked whether Clause 4 and the finance provision under Clause 5 could be used—I think his words were—"to preach the gospel of co-operation". I think that that is precisely what Clause 4 is for. I am sure

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that one of the most important things in this Bill—and the noble Lord paid tribute to it—is the real effort to get co-operation working. Several noble Lords have raised this question of Clause 4, and I will come back to it again.
Perhaps the point that most requires an answer from me is about prepackaging. I thought the noble Lord might raise that matter, knowing his interest in it, and also he was good enough to tell me that he was going to speak on this subject, and so I made a note. Of course the Government are interested in the development of prepackaging, and the Horticultural Marketing Council will be interested in it as a means of improving marketing generally. But we think that it would be premature if we gave grants in this scheme, which has only a short period to run, for pre-packaging by growers. It is not certain whether pre-packaging should be done by the growers, by the retailers or by the wholesalers, or where it should be done and who should do it. We think that it would not fit into the general scheme of the grants that we are giving—they are limited to £8 million—if we put what might come to be a considerable sum aside, with no top limit, for pre-packaging machinery for growers or growers' organisations. Therefore I am not able to be as helpful as the noble Lord would have liked on that matter.
The noble Lord asked me about another point. He asked whether the powers of the Horticultural Marketing Council would be sufficient for them to run a market intelligence service by teleprinter. If we look at Clause 10 (1) (a) of the Bill, I think there is no doubt that the Horticultural Marketing Council, if so minded, could run such a system. That reads:
"obtaining and disseminating, or assisting the obtaining and disseminating of, information about supply, demand and prices."
My own feeling is that such a service would be within those terms.
The noble Lord asked me another question, about which I cannot give him such a favourable reply. He asked me whether the Marketing Council could run a container service. I am bound to say that I do not think they could, under the bill as it stands at the moment. The Marketing Council is not a trading body; it is not even a regulatory body. Actually to run a container service, and
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to manufacture the containers, would not, I think, be within its powers. I spoke of an Amendment which will be brought in at a later stage about a limitation of the powers of the Council, but I do not think it was intended, or can be brought into this Bill, that the Horticultural Marketing Council could actually set up, run, manufacture and distribute a container service. I am bound to say that now. Of course, if the noble Lord wants to put down an Amendment at a later stage, we could go into the matter in detail.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, would the noble Earl allow me to interrupt at this point? May I draw his attention to subsection (1) of Clause 9 which says:
"…. and, with the consent of the Ministers, of any other functions which the Council may determine expedient to be exercised for that purpose."
I was wondering whether such a thing as a common container service can be regarded as trading and, therefore, not a proper activity for the Council. What kind of function would come under those words which does not in fact already come under all other words in the clause?
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, I can see no reason to move from the position I took up, which is that I do not believe that this container service could be allowed, because I believe it would be trading. As I say, I think that if the full implication of the last lines of the first subsection of Clause 9, lines 25, 26 and 27, is not clear, or is thought to be redundant by noble Lords opposite, then perhaps we could discuss this on the Committee stage of the Bill.
Before I leave the points made by the noble Lord—and they are very good points—I should say that the Horticultural Marketing Council would be perfectly in order in instituting research into pre-packaging. Clause 10 (1) (e) would cover that. The noble Lord, Lord Amherst of Hackney, told us, in a witty story, how speculative the industry was, and of course we must agree. This industry is bound to be to a certain extent speculative, and nothing that any Government can do, unless it carries on the whole trade itself at the taxpayer's expense, will ever completely take out the element of speculation that there is

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bound to be in an industry with perishable products of this sort. But I put to the noble Lord, Lord Amherst of Hackney, this point. If you are going to speculate, if you have to speculate, the best thing to do is to get a very good book of form, and the Horticultural Marketing Council, with its teleprinter, perhaps, and its intelligence service, should help the speculator. That is what it is intended to do. And also we reduce the area over which speculation takes place by giving the production grants not only to the growers but to the growers' marketing organisations.
The noble Lord, Lord Amherst of Hackney, raised the point about the small man: would be have the two-thirds of the money? That point was raised by other noble Lords. Can the small man find the two-thirds? He can, I hope, raise this money elsewhere. There will be cases in which even an offer of one-third grant will not enable the improvement to be brought about because the producer will not perhaps have the facilities to raise the other one-third. We must face that. But this grant will narrow the field in which improvements will not be able to be done by producers, because now we are going to pay one-third in any case, and there are credit facilities available. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Amherst of Hackney, welcomed steps towards increasing co-operation and the setting up of the Horticultural Marketing Council.
I now turn to the speech of the noble Earl, Lord Fortescue, and I am very desirous of adding my words of praise on a delightful and well-informed maiden speech. We were all extremely glad to see the name, "E. Fortescue" on the Paper again. His brother was very beloved of this House, and we hope that we shall hear his present Lordship speaking often. His brother in latter years, in the position which he held in this House, was not often able to speak, but we hope we shall frequently see the name "E. Fortescue" and be treated to a speech such as we heard this afternoon.
The noble Earl raised several important points. He pointed out how small the consumption of fruit was in this country compared with some other countries. That is why advertising, which is supposed to stimulate sales, is
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so much part and parcel of this whole Bill. Clause 15, in particular, can be used if an organisation is set up by home producers to advertise their own produce, and they will be able to indent on the Horticultural Marketing Council for the funds wherewith to do that. The noble Earl gave an interesting review of conditions in France, and though I cannot follow him through all those details, or indeed into his opinions, which were really perhaps hardly appropriate to this Bill, on the desirability of a Marketing Board for apples, they were very interesting points and they will certainly be studied with the care that they deserve. It has often been said that your Lordships are experts on a variety of abstruse problems, and I am sure it will not pass notice that we now have an expert on prunes, which is a very important and health-giving item of food.
The noble Lord, Lord Stratheden and Campbell, in a very valuable contribution, confined most of his remarks again to Clause 4, and wanted to be quite certain that full benefits could be obtained in his country, Scotland. My Lords, of course they can. The point of this clause is to assist the organisation of co-operation, to promote co-operative horticultural marketing. It is thought that most of these grants will be paid to four bodies, of which I am glad to say there is one in Scotland. There is the A.C.C.A., the Agricultural Central Co-operative Association Ltd.; there is in Scotland the Scottish Agricultural Organisation Society, the S.A.O.S.; there is a similar organisation called The Welsh Agricultural Organisation Association in Wales, and there is in Ulster one called the Ulster Agricultural Organisation Association. So there can be no doubt that Scotland, through an organisation that already exists, will get its share, and no doubt the Scots will see that their organisation gets its full share in competition with the other three organisations that exist. I think that answers that point fairly completely.
The noble Lord also asked about standard costs and said how complicated they would have to be in this connection; and indeed they will be complicated. We shall give them every consideration, and of course the details will be included in the scheme that will be laid before your Lordships, and that

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will be the time to discuss them. He also asked, was it not a pity that we were giving only a one-third grant, and ought we not to be giving a 50 per cent. grant? Some other noble Lords mentioned that point, too. Determination of the amount of grants one gives in a scheme of this sort must be largely a matter of judgment, and it is impossible to produce factual arguments in support of any precise figure. Not only do we think that the rate of one-third for horticultural improvements will represent a very valuable contribution, but our experience is that these stimulated just the work we wanted in the Farm Improvement Scheme, and there is no reason to suppose that they will not be equally valuable in stimulating work in this scheme.
The noble Lord, Lord Stratheden and Campbell, also raised another point, about which I was not quite clear as he raised it—and he said that he was not quite clear on what the Bill said on this. So we are to a certain extent equal. I gathered it was whether the Council would be able to advise on, or initiate, schemes envisaged under Clause 4. I rather think we are considering different powers here. The Council is given certain functions under Clause 10 to improve marketing and distribution of horticultural produce generally. But Clause 4 is the specific clause for giving grants to central bodies to preach the gospel of co-operation and to promote co-operative marketing. I think perhaps there is a confusion of thought here. How the Council will send out the information that it collects and collates will be for it to decide. The noble Lord asked whether it would be sent out in papers, or what method would be adopted. The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, suggested the teleprinter. That, I think, is a detail which the Council will be fully able to deal with when it is in being.
I turn now to the weighty and most helpful speech that we had from the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe. I am glad to hear from his lips that the growers support this Bill in its broad concept. I am not wholly surprised that the £16 million out of the industry itself should be approached a little cautiously by the noble Lord. It was not perhaps for him to say that it will be quite easy for the industry to produce this £16 mil-
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lion; but he did not overstress his caution and did not show much pessimism. I hope, indeed, that we shall find that, as we are prepared to put up the whole of our £8 million, the industry will find itself readily able to put up the £16 million. Time will show. I cannot, and I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe did not wish me to, follow him into the question of the level of the tariff. As I said before, this Bill, this scheme, these horticultural improvement grants and the Council are not alternatives to the tariff support but a supplement to it. I cannot say, and it would be quite wrong for me to suggest, what the level of the tariff should be. The noble Lord will know as well as I that there are certain applications for tariff increases before Her Majesty's Government at the moment. He knows the machinery. The machinery is in motion, and I cannot at all anticipate what will be the outcome.
The noble Lord, Lord Netherthorpe, raised an interesting point in regard to an intensive and quite small holding—namely, would it not be most unfair that it should not be able to qualify? I think he suggested that something like one and a half acres under very intensive cultivation would make a good livelihood for a man. I hope it will. If the holding really was only one and a half acres of open land it would not qualify under our proposed scheme. But such a smallholding that was giving a full living to a man would almost certainly have a proportion of glass. Now the equivalents, which are contained in paragraph 10 of the White Paper, are that one-twentieth of an acre of glass, or mushrooms, or rhubarb pits or whatever they are called, are all equivalent to one acre. This smallholder might well nearly always be able to come in because of these equivalents, if he is a viable unit. If the 1½ acre man did not have such intensive production he would be unlikely to be viable. Then, of course, there is always the question of his joining or helping to form a co-operative.
The noble Lord raised almost a more important question than that when he spoke of the question of a majority on the Council. I said in my opening remarks that this Council was to be a body where people put their heads

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together, and not a body where heads were counted. We really must not envisage this Council, drawn from all sections of the industry, having difficulties of voting and getting things through with a majority of one. This must be an advisory body where heads are put together. That is of fundamental importance. Certainly, when the Ministers receive a scheme from the Council they will wish to inquire whether it has been generally approved by the Council; but I think that a charges scheme is not likely to come forward on that narrow majority from a Council. It will have to come before Parliament in any case, and I certainly hope that any scheme that comes forward will be a scheme of which the Council generally approves. Then, when we lay it before Parliament, it will have to be approved by Parliament.
I now turn to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wise, whom we were all pleased to see speaking, I think for the first time, from the Dispatch Box. He seems to know a great deal more about what happened in another place than I do. If they had a very happy time in that Committee, I hope that we, too, shall have a happy time in our Committee. But what Amendments I shall be able to agree to depends entirely on what Amendments are brought forward. However, I shall always try to be reasonable and helpful. In regard to the minimum qualifications for this grant—whether the limit is too high—this again is a point which has been made before. It will be clearer and given in more detail in the scheme when it is before us. The noble Lord asked me whether there had been specific negotiations with the banks. I do not think there have been specific negotiations as to how the horticulturists are to raise their two-thirds. I do not think one goes to the bank and specifically asks questions of this sort on each of these Bills. The machinery for raising money is fairly well known by horticulturists, as well as by others.
Then the noble Lord definitely objected to the question of instalments under Clause 2 (2). The instalments are there as a safeguard to the public. This is something quite new; it is an innovation in a scheme of this nature that we are going to give grants in regard to build-
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ings that are not on the holding at all. By the very nature of things a building of this sort may be in the centre of the village, near the railway station, on a most valuable site, and we cannot give a grant in respect of buildings of this sort with no strings at all. The purpose %for which they are used after being grant-aided should be dealt with carefully. We must check that in some way, and after considerable care and thought, we have decided that the proper way to ensure that the money is used for the purpose for which it is intended is that on these buildings that will be erected by co-operative associations, and which may be off the land of any of the producers in that co-operative and on a valuable site, we will pay the grants over a period of five years. In that way we can keep check on the public money which is being spent.
There was some ingenious arithmetic brought forward by the noble Lord as to how much £100,000 was—whether it was one-eightieth of £8 million, and therefore 1 per cent. I have no doubt that his arithmetic is correct, but, as I said before, under Clause 4 this money will probably go to four main societies, and therefore the division will be between four. Thus the sum comes out rather larger. But, joking apart, no sum is ever big enough for the asker, and it is always too much for the Treasury, and I think that probably we have about the right sum in this portion of the Bill.
There were some technical points about fork-lift trucks and conveyors. With the noble Lord's permission, I should prefer to deal with that on Committee. He also raised the question of the heat treatment of sage. Off the cuff, I do not know the answer to those points and I would prefer to speak to the noble Lord afterwards. I will ascertain the answer. He might alternatively care to raise them in Committee. Again, we heard raised the question of import control. The noble Lord and I do not see eye to eye on the method of controlling imports. Our policy is to use the tariff within the obligations that we have, and it will continue. But it is a question of degree, and I think that, with the best will in the world, I must leave it at that.
The noble Lord wrung our hearts with a sad story of a strawberry grower. I am sure that his story was true, otherwise the noble Lord would not tell us

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it. But hard cases do not necessarily make good law, and I cannot use that as a peg on which to hang the suggestion that we should immediately put up the tariff on strawberries because of the heartrending story that was narrated to us.
LORD WISE: My Lords, I understand that we cannot raise the question of forklift trucks on Committee. That is mentioned in the White Paper but not in the Bill. Possibly the noble Earl could give me, by letter or in some other way, an assurance that that will be included with other equipment.
EARL WALDEGRAVE: My Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord an assurance that it will be or will not be included; but before the scheme is laid I will tell the noble Lord what we intend to do and we can then discuss it. It is conceivable—and perhaps I should not say more—that what we may intend to do might be varied by what the noble Lord represents to me; but that will not be in the Bill but in the scheme which will be laid before Parliament shortly. With that, I hope that I have answered, perhaps too fully, the points that have been raised, and I hope your Lordships will now give the Bill a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

INDECENCY WITH CHILDREN BILL [H.L.]
6.52 p.m.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

PUBLIC HEALTH LABORATORY SERVICE BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order). An Amendment (privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

COAL INDUSTRY BILL
6.54 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord St. Oswald.)
LORD LAWSON: My Lords, I was sorry that owing to another engagement I was unable to be here when this Bill was discussed on Thursday last, but my noble friend Lord Stonham made the necessary excuses for myself and my two other ex-mining friends, and the noble Lord, Lord Mills, spoke in like appreciative terms. I am glad to have the opportunity of saying a few words on this Bill. I believe the attitude towards it in another place was expressed in words which unfortunately I cannot quote. But as to their general spirit I would refer to what was said there by the honourable gentleman, Colonel Lancaster, a man who has been eminent in mining circles and has spoken with great authority over many years. He referred to some of my friends in the other place pointing out that, as a result of great infusions of money in the last ten or fifteen years, conditions generally were improving in the mines in respect of lifesaving, output and general working conditions. He said he agreed with what had been said and that it was for that reason that he was going to support the voting of the sum that was asked for by this Bill.
May I say that since the mines were nationalised there have been very great changes. If we take a comparison of the lives lost at present as against the old, pre-nationalisation days, we shall find that for man-days worked the figures have gone down very much. Output is now increasing, and there is a general spirit and sense of satisfaction, so far as the work is concerned, throughout the industry. Apart from the question of the coming of oil I have never, in my time, seen the average miner in a better mood. I have never known a time when there was less disgruntlement and trouble in the coalfields. These last ten or fifteen years have brought a revolution in changed conditions that have prevailed as a result of nationalisation. There is,

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too, the fact that the mines themselves have been improved, and those who know anything at all about mining will know that, very often as a result of shortage of capital, the mines were either ill-worked or over-worked and that the working conditions prevailing were very bad. I have been very pleased to see that a whole range of diseases have been brought under compensation law. It used to be a sad thing to see men panting with what was called pneumoconiosis, not knowing what was the matter with them. We knew, of course, that it was caused by a form of heavy gas—we called it the "stype"—that had infected the men's system and heart and would shorten their life. Conditions have improved considerably and I am glad that my noble friend referred to those.
But one of the striking things that has taken place, of course, is that, as a result of national ownership, the effect of the coming of oil has been almost broken. We have to face the fact that oil comes into the country and is wanted for various forms of power. When the rush of oil came I myself thought that we were going back to the old days of what were called the depressed areas. I said so in this House, and noble Lords here may remember that I raised the note of alarm and spoke with considerable passion about it. I am glad to find that I was wrong; that the mines authorities, with the Government, have been wise enough to face this problem, so that the full effect of the coming of oil, a large spate of oil, has not been what I was afraid it would be.
But mines are being closed and men are losing their work. It is being done by pensioning off the older men and in some cases retiring men under 65. I was present quite recently at the presentation of some long-service certificates; and how different it was to what it used to be! We had a function, a very bright and happy "tea fight." The old people were gathered there, and it was something that delighted the heart of all to see, knowing what things had been like in those older days when mines were just closed without any reference to the men at all. I am not saying that the people who owned the mines were happy about it, because they were not; they just simply could not carry on. The
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result of national ownership, of course, has meant that we can have the kind of function that I speak of at which I was present. I noticed one think about that function, however. I think that there were about 60 certificates given. I should say that about six of the recipients were younger men, not of retiring age, who had gone out of the industry as quickly as they could to get work somewhere else, though they got their certificates for their service. I inquired about them and I found that that is what was happening.
My Lords, that is a serious matter. If the younger men, men somewhere about 40 years of age, with a family to think of, are going to seize the first job they can, and if that spirit develops in the mining industry, it will not be good for the mines. This particular coalfield, which I believe has existed for nearly two centuries, produces, according to the National Coal Board, perhaps the best coking coal in the world; that is in North-West Durham. If we are going to lose the miners in an area like that, and the mines find it difficult to carry on, it is going to be a serious situation for the local community indirectly, as well as for the men concerned. I say this because this area has not been made one of the areas that is to receive factories under the Local Employment Bill, on the ground, I think, that there is no particularly large amount of unemployment there. But in that area, and in all mining areas, there is a good deal of female labour that will not be in the employment market until factories come into the area. It seems to me that the result of all this is going to be that mines must stop before an area is made what is called a development area.
In the mining areas we have, in the main, heavy industries: coal, steel, heavy engineering. Apart from that, there has been development in recent years as the result of unemployment and depression, which have given rise to the Local Employment Bill. But these heavy industries underpin the rest of the industries in the country. Steel is needed for motor cars and various other commodities; heavy engineering is required for other industries. But an industry has to be closed down, apparently, before a locality is going to be declared a development area. I admit that the situation

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is a difficult one, and I know that in the South-West of Durham there has been development. The North-West covers a very wide area supplying the great Consett iron and steel works and other steelworks in the county and has the necessary coke for steel making.
So I say there is a danger that the younger men will leave the coal industry to go to the shade of the Tee Valley, the factory area, or even leave the county or perhaps the country; and there is going to be a shortage caused in this way. They have to think of their families. I just wanted to place these matters on record—because a very serious position has to be faced—while the Minister was here, and for the English leader, Mr. Sadler Forster, to note that men are moving in this way because they are afraid of what is going to happen to their families. They are men who would be satisfied in the mines—and, indeed, who like the mines, for a miner gets a communal sense; he gets moving in among his own kind, and he likes the work. I had people give me sympathy when I was a miner, but I did not mind about that. It was not that which I minded about: it was the money. It was not the work; it was the ill-pay for what was done. But I liked the company; and, in a way, it was a man-testing job, and I did not mind it. But now, of course, if areas like that are to be excluded from the Local Employment Bill, and from being made development areas, the effect is going to be, I think, that young men with families will get out as soon as possible, and there will probably be a shortage of the younger men.
I am pleased that this Coal Industry Bill has been accepted in this spirit; and I was very pleased indeed to read the understanding spirit which prevailed in the other place. There was no criticism. I was also very pleased to read how it was accepted in this House by your Lordships, and I think that to-night the same spirit will prevail. But I would ask the noble Lord who is about to answer if he would draw the attention of the Government's representatives to the point that I have made about such a great area as North West Durham (and there must be other areas in the country also) being left out of the reckoning as a development area. My Lords, I have great pleasure in supporting the Bill.
7.13 p.m.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend, who was unable to be here this evening, will be most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, for speaking on this Third Reading. Rather more personally, perhaps, I can say myself, as one who lives among coal miners in another area, that it is very encouraging for me to hear the noble Lord set his seal of approval on this Bill. He was not here on the last occasion on which we discussed this Bill, for the reason that he was among his miner friends in his own area; but, if it is of any comfort to him, his fame, and the affection for him, spreads far beyond that area, and at least into the area of South Yorkshire where I myself live.
The noble Lord spoke of the improvements which have taken place in the pits in recent years, particularly in working conditions and in safety conditions, and there is no doubt that these improvements have been taking place very steadily and will continue to take place in the future. The Board's future plan for control, to which this Bill is closely related, promises the investment of £511 million between 1960 and 1965; and, as a result of this new investment, as well as that which has been taking place in recent years, 80 per cent. of the coal output in 1965 will come from new and reconstructed collieries. In point of fact, it is fair to say, therefore, that the coal industry, so far from being a dying industry, has been given a new look, which is what the noble Lord would himself wish.
However, he spoke with less pleasure about recruitment. In fact, I think that the recruiting facts are slightly rosier than he suggests. The National Coal Board has been restricting recruitment, but a general preference is laid down for juveniles and craftsmen; and the noble Lord's worry that young people will not be coming into the pits is, I think, being taken care of and need not necessarily be as dangerous as he thinks: and certainly it would be regretted by everyone in this Government if it were to happen. In some areas—the East Midlands and in parts of South Wales—actual shortages have occurred, and there more general recruiting has been resumed. The noble Lord, rather naturally, spoke of the Durham Division, and I can tell

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him that between 1960 and 1965 there will be an investment of £34 million in the Durham collieries, and this, I think, should hearten him to some extent.
The noble Lord also mentioned a fear that an industry must close down and go practically into bankruptcy before an area is recognised as being liable to become a development area: but that is by no means true. This new Bill, the Local Employment Bill, which he mentioned, is designed not only to deal with possible unemployment but to anticipate it, and there is absolutely no reason to think that the coal industry will be ignored in that way. Indeed, my right honourable friend the Minister of Power will see to it that, should redundancy be threatened in the industry, it will be remembered and looked after.
LORD LAWSON: My Lords, I was emphasising the position as far as the heavy industrial areas are concerned. They must have practically finished work and closed down operating before they are declared a development area. At any rate, that is the case in North West Durham.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I was making that particular point about the Local Employment Bill, which is not yet in action, but which gives the Board of Trade a power to focus, if I
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can call it that, and a power of anticipation, which has not existed before; and that, I hope, may take care of the noble Lord's anxieties.
I will close with a very few words—simpler, briefer and, I hope, more coherent than some that I uttered earlier this afternoon. I remember that on one occasion, when the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, was not present, another noble Lord on his side of the House got up (I forget the subject of the debate) and said that it was beyond him how anybody could take pride in working in a mine. On that occasion I rose to my feet on this side of the House in order to say that he had evidently not read a book, a great human document, called "A Man's Life", written by the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, a copy of which I am glad to say I have, signed by him and presented to me by my own former Member of Parliament and our mutual friend, Mr. Horace Holmes. The reason did not burst ii to speech was because I found that I was standing in front of the Bishops' Bench, and an outburst of lay indignation from that place would have been not only inappropriate but out of order. With those few words I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, for intervening.
On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.
House adjourned at twenty minutes past seven o'clock.