Sitting of 1 March 1960

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Hyde Park
    Sir W. Wakefieldasked the Minister of Works what arrangements he has made with the Minister of Transport for an underpass from Hyde Park beneath the Alexandra Gate in order to relieve the heavy traffic congestion at that place.
    The Minister of Works (Lord John Hope): None, Sir.
    Sir W. Wakefield: Does not my right hon. Friend think it is high time that arrangements were made to ease the dreadful congestion at this place? Will he consider making Kensington Palace Gardens Road, which is a Crown lease, into a public road instead of retaining it as a private road? This would greatly relieve the congestion at Alexandra Gate and at other places on the north side of the park.
    Lord John Hope: That last question is not the one that my hon. Friend asked on the Order Paper. I would rather he put down a Question about that. The suggestions contained in his substantive Question would not have the effect that he desires.

    St. James's Palace Area (Traffic Congestion)
    Sir W. Wakefieldasked the Minister of Works if he will consult the Minister of Transport with a view to completing the plan for a road from Piccadilly between the avenue of trees and through the gates by the roundabout outside Buckingham Palace in order to relieve the traffic congestion in the vicinity of St. James's Palace.
    Lord John Hope: My right hon. Friend and I are satisfied that such a road would have more disadvantages than advantages.
    Sir W. Wakefield: Will my right hon. Friend say what the disadvantages would be when there would be such obvious advantages in the relief of traffic at this very congested part of central London?
    Lord John Hope: The junction with Piccadilly would, we feel, increase congestion in Piccadilly and the southern outlet would give rise to difficulties in traffic circulation at the Queen Victoria Memorial. In addition, such a road would cut in half what is already a small park.
    Captain Pilkington: Has not the Minister of Transport been pressing the Ministry of Works on this subject for some time? Will not the Ministry of Works be a little more forthcoming and co-operative?
    Lord John Hope: I thought I had made it clear that my right hon. Friend and I are both satisfied that this road would have more disadvantages than advantages. I am not aware of any pressure from my right hon. Friend to the contrary.

    House of Commons (Accommodation)
    Mr. Blackburnasked the Minister of Works how many filing cabinets are now provided for the use of hon. Members.
    Lord John Hope: Seventy-five. In addition, 67 desks with filing accommodation and 41 cupboards are provided. These figures do not include filing cabinets provided for right hon. and hon. Members who have their own rooms. A further 40 filing cabinets and 40 desks with filing accommodation will shortly be available in 6–7, Old Palace Yard.
    Mr. Blackburn: Is it not a fact that the filing cabinets to which the Minister refers are only those in the secretaries' rooms, that no individual Member of Parliament has been provided with a filing cabinet and that Members are restricted to the small schoolboy's locker?
    Lord John Hope: I should like to look into that specific point.
    Sir L. Plummerasked the Minister of Works what requests he has had for the provision of better accommodation for the representatives of the Press in the House.
    Lord John Hope: I have received requests through the authorities of the House with regard both to the Reporters' Buffet and to the Reporters' Gallery Library.
    Sir L. Plummer: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will not regard too seriously the traditional reluctance of the Press to project its own demands? Will he look at the Press Gallery accommodation, which is inadequate for so large a staff doing, on the whole, so responsible a job? Would he at the same time pay particular attention to the space allotted to the Commonwealth Press, which sits in an alley as it were, disturbed by people passing by? Will he say whether he can now provide the Commonwealth Press with the kind of accommodation it should have?
    Lord John Hope: Yes, Sir. Press accommodation, as all accommodation, certainly comes within what I am now looking at. I agree that this has all to be part of the general investigation.
    Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Works how many desks there are in each of the secretaries' rooms off Westminster Hall; what is the floor space in each room; and what requests he has had to improve this accommodation.
    Lord John Hope: The information is as follows:

    Room A: 19 desks; 644 sq. ft. of usable space.

    Room B: 16 desks; 626 sq. ft. of usable space.

    Room C: 8 desks; 304 sq. ft. of usable space.

    Room D: 17 desks; 626 sq. ft. of usable space.

    I have received no requests to improve this accommodation.
    Mrs. Castle: But is it not clear that the accommodation is well below the desirable accommodation advocated by the Gowers Report of 1949 on non-industrial employment? Is the Minister aware that the Gowers Committee's recommendations may shortly become
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    law, and can he therefore state what steps he is taking to bring this accommodation into line with a Report which may eventually become the law of the land?
    Lord John Hope: With respect, the hon. Lady is not right about the Gowers Report. The minimum recommended in the Report is 400 cubic feet and all these rooms are above that. One is 407, one is 470, one is 456, and the fourth is 442 cubic feet.
    Mr. C. Pannell: When the Minister gave his Answer about cubic feet, was he considering the inordinate height of the rooms? if one considers floor space those figures are absolutely ridiculous. Why does not the Minister do his homework?
    Lord John Hope: I was giving the House the figures in cubic feet. Whether that was convenient for the hon. Gentleman or not, I cannot help it.
    Mrs. Castle: Has the Minister ever been into the secretaries' rooms? Has he seen how crowded the girls are, and does he really say that the accommodation, which works out at less than the Gowers Committee's recommendation of a minimum of 47 square feet per desk, is adequate for the girls who are working there the whole time and who certainly deserve better of hon. Members of this House?
    Lord John Hope: I do not in the least mean to suggest that I think the conditions are perfect. I was simply answering specific criticisms which I thought had been made unfairly. There is a great deal of congestion, but it could be greatly alleviated if hon. Members would make more use of the dictating rooms provided for them on the interview floor.
    Mrs. Castleasked the Minister of Works what requests he has had for the provision of further rest room facilities for the staff of the House.
    Lord John Hope: I have recently been asked to provide a second rest room for the waitress staff of the Refreshment Department. I am looking into this.
    Mrs. Castle: While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether he would agree that, even without the additional facilities to which he has referred and which I welcome, the

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    fact will remain that the large staff in this House has not, as a whole, the standard of rest facilities we would like them to have, particularly in view of the fact that most are employed on split duties and are here from about 11 o'clock in the morning until 10 o'clock at night? Does he agree that until there are fundamental structural changes in the provisions in the Palace, we cannot provide the facilities we should?
    Lord John Hope: I certainly agree with the hon. Lady that the accommodation about which she has asked in her Question is not adequate. I am hoping very much that something I can do, without fundamental structural alteration, will help a great deal.
    Mr. C. Pannellasked the Minister of Works how many secretaries of hon. Members are accommodated in St. Stephen's Tower; and what cubic capacity is allocated to each.
    Lord John Hope: As a temporary measure, accommodation for eight secretaries has been made available in two rooms in St. Stephen's Tower. Four secretaries are in Room 7, where they have 323 cubic feet each; the other four are in the Turret Room, and have 239 cubic feet each.
    Mr. Pannell: Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that the figures he has just given are hardly reconcilable with the figures he gave in answer to a previous Question? Will he bear in mind that, inadequate as the facilities are, they are preferable to sending the girls across the road, to the great inconvenience of the hon. Members they serve? Would he consider dealing with this as vacancies occur in other parts of the Palace, rather than sending secretaries outside the place?
    Lord John Hope: I would not agree with the hon. Gentleman and I believe the House would not do so. After all, it is only just across the road and I should have thought the secretaries would rather go there than have to work in what are admittedly, although only temporarily, sub-standard conditions inside the Palace.
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Works what consideration he has given to the erection of office accommodation in New Palace Yard.
    Lord John Hope: I am considering various possibilities for providing additional accommodation in the Palace of Westminster, and this is one of the proposals I am looking into.
    Mr. Lipton: Is the Minister aware that the plan by Sir Charles Barry, which was ordered by the House to be printed on 21st June, 1855, provided for additional buildings round New Palace Yard? Shall we have to wait another century before anything is done about it? Cannot the noble Lord hold out any hope at all?
    Lord John Hope: It does not necessarily follow that the only way to get rid of the difficulties which confront us all in the House lies in implementing the Barry scheme.
    Lady Megan Lloyd Georgeasked the Minister of Works whether he is now in a position to state on what date he hopes to lay before the House his plans for extending the office accommodation available to hon. Members.
    Lord John Hope: I shall be ready to make a statement during the discussion on accommodation which it is hoped may take place before Easter.
    Lady Megan Lloyd George: Can the noble Lord give an assurance that the House will have an opportunity of studying and deciding on these plans? Would not the best way of ensuring that be to set up a commission of representatives of all parts of the House, as recommended in the Motion which has been put on the Order Paper by some of my hon. and right hon. Friends?
    Lord John Hope: We can wait for the method which the House decides would be best to be employed to look into all the suggestions which I have to make, but I assure the noble Lady that the House will have a chance to look at and discuss what I suggest. The House will not be presented with a fait accompli of any sort.

    Birdcage Walk (Road Works)
    Mr. Hendryasked the Minister of Works the purpose and probable duration of the excavations at present completely blocking the north footway of Birdcage Walk near its junction with Great George Street, Westminster; and whether he will, meantime, to secure the

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    comfort and safety of pedestrians crossing St. James's Park, construct a temporary footpath connecting the lakeside path with a new exit at the north end of the lodge.
    Lord John Hope: These excavations are due to alterations in the routeing of Post Office cables necessitated by the forthcoming widening of Great George Street and Storey's Gate. I hope that the footpath will be in use again by the end of March; meanwhile a section has now been roped off for pedestrian use.
    Mr. Deedes: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that not only in this park, but also in Green Park, for the same reason, things are in a sad mess? As we approach the summer months, when there will be a large number of visitors to enjoy and admire these gardens, can my right hon. Friend do something about speeding up this work?
    Lord John Hope: I am sure that the work is going ahead as quickly as possible, and I think my hon. Friend will find that things will brighten just as the weather does.

    Westminster Hall
    Mr. C. Johnsonasked the Minister of Works whether he is now in a position to state when the arcade on the east side of Westminster Hall is to be rebuilt as part of the stone restoration programme of the Palace of Westminster.
    Lord John Hope: No. Sir.
    Mr. Johnson: Would the right hon. Gentleman seriously consider this question again, and also take advantage of the opportunity which it would afford, as suggested by the Select Committee on House of Commons Accommodation in 1954, namely, to build out over Star Chamber Court in a way which would provide a large additional room for hon. Members on the principal floor?
    Lord John Hope: That last point is rather a different one. The actual rebuilding of the arcade, about which the hon. Gentleman asked, will certainly have to be done one day, but it is not urgent at the moment.
    Mrs. Castle: But is not the Minister aware that a proposal to rebuild the arcade, with writing rooms over it in
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    order to meet the urgent need of hon. Members for accommodation, has been under consideration for many years now? Does his reply mean that the Minister has rejected the proposal or that he has just gone to sleep on the matter?
    Lord John Hope: No, Sir. If there is any somnolence I suggest that it is on the part of the hon. Lady who has not read the Question, which relates to the stone restoration programme of the Palace of Westminster, to which I was trying to confine my Answer without prejudice to anything else.

    Palace of Westminster (Fire Precautions)
    Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Works to what extent he undertakes structural inspections of the Palace of Westminster in relation to fire danger; and when such an inspection last took place.
    Lord John Hope: My Department's Fire Inspectorate surveys the whole of the building annually. The last survey took place on 23rd, 24th and 25th February, 1959. The 1960 survey will be made shortly.
    Mr. Hayman: May I ask the Minister whether he is aware that some parts of the Palace are death-traps for some of the people who have to work there? Will he tell us whether there are any fire escapes in the whole of the Palace or none? Further, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of the windows in the new House of Commons block cannot be opened, and as the report of his Fire Inspectorate appears to be most unsatisfactory, will he call in the London Fire Brigade to give an independent report and publish it?
    Lord John Hope: No, Sir, I do not feel inclined to do that. I will look with great care into the specific observations made by the hon. Gentleman, which are important. I am not aware that there are these gaps in the programme. My officers look very carefully at the system the whole time. Had the hon. Gentleman put down a more specific Question I should have been able to answer him more satisfactorily, and I will try to do so if he will do that.
    Mr. Hayman: Is the Minister aware that I tried to do so but found that it

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    would encroach on the sphere of responsibility of the Lord Great Chamberlain?
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Hayman. Next Question.
    Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Works how many fire extinguishers and fire hoses are provided in the Palace of Westminster.
    Lord John Hope: Three hundred and sixty-five extinguishers and 202 hoses.
    Mr. Hayman: Will the Minister say whether there are any printed instructions on their use which are available to hon. Members or others who may be in the vicinity of the fire appliances? Can he say whether people trained in their use are available at all working hours, because the fire hazards of this Palace appear to be considerable?
    Lord John Hope: Yes, Sir, there are people trained in their use. I will let the hon. Gentleman know about the other points. In addition to the extinguishers and hoses, there are water buckets and sand buckets which I am glad to tell the House are officially known as "Buckets, water" and "Buckets, sand".
    Mr. Peyton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of us think that a real, good, healthy fire would be a very desirable thing, as the outcome might well be some improvement on the wretched and miserable amenities we have?
    Lord John Hope: I am not sure that my hon. Friend's relation between cause and effect is entirely sound, and obviously I cannot make any remarks which might appear to be encouraging arson in this House.

    Moor Park Mansion
    Sir L. Plummerasked the Minister of Works how much money has been paid in the way of restoration grants for Moor Park Mansion; what consideration he has given to a recent application for a further grant; and what amount of money is involved in this application.
    Lord John Hope: In 1957 Rickmansworth Urban District Council was offered a grant of £9,360 for structural repairs. In the event £9,079 was paid, showing a saving of about £280. The
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    Historic Buildings Council for England has recently considered a further application by the urban district council for a grant mainly towards the cost of redecorating the main hall, including the important wall paintings. The total estimated cost of this second programme is between £4,450 and £4,950, and on the Historic Buildings Council's advice I have offered to make available the savings, of £280, on the first grant plus an additional grant of £2,140 or 50 per cent. of the actual cost, whichever is less.
    Sir L. Plummer: Is the noble Lord aware that this house is used as part of the headquarters of Moor Park Golf Club and that this golf club refuses to admit Jews to its membership simply because they are Jews? In view of this disgusting and Hitlerian attitude, will the Minister reconsider his decision and see to it that not one penny of the taxpayers' money is spent while this discrimination is observed?
    Lord John Hope: Even if the hon. Member's accusation were accurate—[An HON. MEMBER: "It is not."]—it really would not be for me to comment. It is not within my responsibility to do so. I did not authorise a grant to the golf club. I authorised it to the urban district council to start with.
    Sir L. Plummer: Has not the Minister some concern for the social purposes for which the money is used? Here is a flight lieutenant out of Her Majesty's Services who fought against Hitler and who is refused admittance to this golf club simply because he is a Jew. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] I take the responsibility for what I say. Why are we to go on spending money to allow this form of Nazism to exist in this country?
    Lord John Hope: I can only ask the hon. Member to realise that the grants which I authorise on the recommendations of the Historic Buildings Council are for beautiful buildings, including this one, which are for the public's enjoyment. What goes on in other aspects in these buildings from time to time has nothing whatever to do with it, even if what the hon. Member has said is true—and it has been denied that it is true.

    Government Offices (Heating)
    Mr. Ainsleyasked the Minister of Works if he will see that all Government offices use indigenous fuel supplies as a form of office heating.
    Lord John Hope: I have been in touch with my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Power about the choice of fuel for heating Government buildings. Indigenous fuels are being and will be used wherever they can do the job as cheaply and as well as other fuels.
    Mr. Ainsley: While thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that he is only following the precedent that has been set by other coal-producing countries and their Governments' decisions, as, for example, in Austria? Does the Minister realise that such a policy will safeguard our own national economy and will alleviate industrial and social upheaval in this country?
    Lord John Hope: I hope very much that the hon. Member is right.

  SCOTLAND

    Land Reclamation
    Mr. Manuelasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how much land he estimates could be reclaimed for agricultural production if proper flood prevention and drainage schemes were carried out.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. John Maclay): The only estimate I have is the estimate made by the Duncan Committee in 1950 that some 200,000 acres of land were adversely affected in varying degrees by inadequate arterial drainage.
    Mr. Manuel: Does not the Secretary of State agree that his Answer merely shows a gross waste of what could be good agricultural land? Will he not now show some vim, vigour and initiative and bring forward some proper drainage legislation? For example, could he not have a blue-print prepared for Scotland showing proper drainage schemes that could be carried out over a good number of years as his finances allow?
    Mr. Maclay: The hon. Member will appreciate that it is necessary to keep
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    this matter in proportion and that 200,000 acres represent ·046 per cent. of the total area under crops and grass in 1959. As I have explained in the past, the introduction of drainage legislation of a comprehensive character has not yet been found possible, as no acceptable method of financing major works has been found. But we are still examining the problem.
    Mr. Willisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimates have been made by his Department of the acreage of land in Scotland that could be reclaimed for agricultural purposes.
    Mr. Maclay: It has not been found practicable to make any such estimates as the extent to which land can be improved depends on the balance of economic and physical factors which is bound to change from time to time.
    Mr. Willis: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of estimates, including one by one of his hon. and gallant Friends running into millions of acres, have been made? Does he think that the present rate of progress is satisfactory? Will he look at the matter properly and ensure that the best use is made of the land in Scotland?
    Mr. Maclay: As I said in answer to Questions on a previous occasion, I consider that the Government offer a reasonable range of incentives for reclamation. I repeat that there must be some balance between economic and physical factors.
    Mr. T. Fraser: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he and his right hon. Friend are also producing a disincentive to reclamation by the withdrawal of marginal agricultural payments which are payable almost exclusively in respect of land after it is reclaimed?
    Mr. Maclay: The hon. Member knows the position about M. A.P. grants. The phrase which he used is not a correct description of what is happening.

    Pig Industry (Subsidies)
    Mr. Manuelasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the amounts paid in subsidies to the pig industry in Scotland for the years 1956–57, 1957–58, and 1958–59, respectively
    Mr. Maclay: Guarantee payments in respect of pigs certified in Scotland in

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    these years were £1,793,000, £1,953,000 and £1,198,000, respectively. These figures do not take account of pigs produced in Scotland which are taken over the border and certified in England.—[HON. MEMBERS: "Certified?"]—Exact information about guarantee payments for these pigs is not available but they are estimated to be of the order of £625,000, £900,000 and £515,000, respectively, for the three years in question.
    Mr. Manuel: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Committee upstairs we are dealing with the Mental Health (Scotland) Bill and that possibly he could come along there and give us an explanation? Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it is that while the Labour Government were in office producers obtained a much better price for their bacon and pork pigs and a much cheaper price prevailed in the shops, and the very opposite is now the case?
    Mr. Maclay: I have given a remarkable amount of information in my Answer, but I assume that the hon. Member is aware that wholesale bacon prices recently fell by 20s. per hundredweight.

    Rheumatism
    Miss Herbisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what facilities for the treatment of rheumatism and rheumatological research are provided in the area covered by the Western Regional Hospital Board.
    Mr. Maclay: Facilities for treatment are available at general hospitals throughout the region. Research is taking place at the Western Infirmary, Glasgow. The Regional Hospital Board is at present considering a proposal for the establishment of a special unit for research and treatment.
    Miss Herbison: Is the Secretary of State aware that the Western Regional Hospital Board has been considering this matter since 1957? Is he aware that there are no facilities for rheumatological research and that since there are many cases of rheumatism in the West of Scotland this lack of facilities is almost a public scandal now in Scotland? What does the right hon. Gentleman intend to do to hurry the decision of the Western Regional Hospital Board?
    Mr. Maclay: As I think the hon. Lady knows, I have asked the Board to report and I expect the report soon.
    Miss Herbison: If it does not come soon, will the right hon. Gentleman insist on getting it? The right hon. Gentleman is Minister of Health for Scotland. Is he aware that most knowledgeable people are extremely worried about this matter?
    Mr. Maclay: I agree that it is extremely worrying, but the Regional Board has a great deal of work in hand. I am sure that it is doing its best to let me have its report as soon as it can.

    Roads (Reflecting Kerbs)
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has considered the Report of the Road Research Board of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research on the benefits of reflecting kerbs; and whether he is prepared in new road programmes to include them as an essential contribution to safe motoring.
    Mr. Maclay: I have seen the report and I agree that reflecting kerbs or other special means of defining the edge of the road may be useful at bends or where fog is common. I do not consider them essential everywhere.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are possibilities of making the kerbs reflect without much additional expense? Surely that would be a very wise thing in the interests of road safety. I think that everyone appreciates the marvellous effect that the reflecting studs in the middle of the road have had towards road safety, and if this could be done at the edge of the roads it would be much better.
    Mr. Maclay: My Department and I are very conscious of these considerations and we are in close touch with the Road Research Laboratory on the whole subject.

    Disabled Persons (Mechanically-Propelled Vehicles)
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many mechanically-propelled vehicles were issued to disabled persons by his Department during each of the last five years.
    Mr. Maclay: Since the Answer to the hon. Member's Question involves a number of figures, I shall, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Thomson: Is the Secretary of State aware that the standards applied to the award of these vehicles seem to be very mean and harsh and that there appears to be room for a generous increase in the number of these vehicles to be made available? Would the Minister look again at the case of a severely crippled constituent of mine, which I referred to him recently, who struggles heroically to work across the city every day instead of relying on public funds, and who is still declared ineligible for one of these vehicles?
    Mr. Maclay: I will look at the matter again if the hon. Gentleman cares to write to me. In terms of one category only, the number of tricycles issued rose from 158 in 1955 to 292 in 1959.
    Following are the figures:

    NEW AND REPLACEMENT ISSUES OF CARS AND TRICYCLES

    Year

    War Pensioners

    N.H.S. Patients Tricycles

    Total

    Cars

    Tricycles

    1955

    10

    35

    158

    203

    1956

    12

    44

    191

    247

    1957

    16

    30

    189

    235

    1958

    44

    35

    210

    289

    1959

    49

    36

    292

    377

    Scottish Special Housing Association
    Mr. Millanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what arrangements have been made in the current year for the submission of tenders for house-building by the Direct Labour Department of the Scottish Special Housing Association Limited
    Mr. Maclay: The Association's Direct Labour Organisation will submit competitive estimates for any multi-storey flats which the Association proposes to to build, and also for all other types of houses except those in poured concrete construction. The latter will continue for the present to be reserved for the Direct Labour Organisation, which has specialised in this type of construction.
    Mr. Millan: May I take it from the right hon. Gentleman's reply that there is no restriction as to the number of houses for which the S.S.H.A. may tender through the Direct Labour Department? There have been restrictions on the number built in the past. May I take it that these restrictions continue but that there are no restrictions on the number to be tendered for?
    Mr. Maclay: That is another question. I should be grateful if the hon. Gentleman would put it on the Order Paper. I should not like to answer it offhand, but I think that the answer is that there is no restriction.
    Mr. McInnes: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he has no intention of liquidating this organisation?
    Mr. Maclay: I can certainly state that I have no intention of liquidating that organisation.

    Harthill (By-pass Road)
    Miss Herbisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he proposes to start the by-pass on the A.8 road which will cut out Harthill.
    Mr. Maclay: I am unable to forecast when this scheme can be fitted into the roads programme. The line for which a Trunk Road Order was made in 1955 may need to be reviewed as a result of the investigations now taking place on the next length of road to the east where the British Motor Corporation factory is to be
    Miss Herbison: Is the Minister aware that, in spite of the safety railings and the island in the middle of this village, this is a very dangerous road, that there have been fatal accidents there, and that this by-pass has been promised for a very long time? The siting of the B.M.C. factory makes this a most urgent project. Surely the Secretary of State can give more information than he has done.
    Mr. Maclay: I think that the hon. Lady will agree that until we have done the preliminary work which is going on urgently on the B.M.C. siting problem, it would be a mistake to come to a decision on the exact line of the piece of road which she has in mind.
    Miss Herbison: Surely the right hon. Gentleman knows that even if the B.M.C. had not gone to Bathgate there was need for the by-pass, and it should not have to wait on any decision about the road round the B.M.C. factory.
    Mr. Maclay: This is a question of relative priorities. The accident rate on this part of the road, while serious, is not out of line with that on the rest of the road.

    British Motor Corporation Factory (Communications)
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he proposes to take to revise and accelerate the improvement of roads leading from the British Motor Corporation factory to the docks at Grangemouth and Leith; and, in particular, what proposals he has for the immediate provision of an adequate road from Bathgate to the Salmon Inn and thence to the Kincardine Bridge.
    Mr. Maclay: Our first task is with the roads round the site itself. With my agreement, West Lothian County Council has appointed consulting engineers to report on the improvements needed to trunk road A.8 and the adjoining classified roads.
    I can, however, assure the right hon. Gentleman that the wider issues which he has raised have not been overlooked.
    Mr. Woodburn: As the construction of the Outer Seven arrangement is bound to lead to the dispatch of many more cars to Scandinavian countries and Grangemouth and Leith are likely ports, is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the great danger of using this main road between Salmon Inn and Bathgate, which is full of twists and narrow bridges, and which is generally used as the main road from Kincardine Bridge to England, and can he do something to expedite the construction of something better there?
    Mr. Maclay: The right hon. Gentleman will realise from the earlier replies I have given that we fully appreciate the importance of this problem. I should not like to go further today than to say that until we get on with the present investigation, which is absolutely essential, we cannot see the effects on other roads.

    The Clyde (Fisheries)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the complaints of Clyde fishermen on the action of foreign trawlers in destroying the feeding grounds in the Clyde and taking immature fish; and what action he proposes to take in the matter.
    Mr. Maclay: I have received complaints about damage to gear caused by foreign trawlers operating in the Clyde and their use of small-meshed nets and have arranged for a continuous and strengthened patrol of the Clyde to be maintained in order to prevent incidents so far as possible. No evidence has been established as to the destruction of feeding grounds and I have no information about the capture of immature fish by these vessels.
    Mr. Hoy: If the right hon. Gentleman's officials detect foreign fishing fleets fishing with seine nets not of the requisite size, what power has he to deal with the matter?
    Mr. Maclay: There are various powers, but this is a complicated question to answer and I will gladly write to the hon. Gentleman about it.

    Ophthalmic Services
    Mr. Russellasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the approximate number of patients who have had their eyes examined or re-examined in Scotland under the Supplementary Ophthalmic Services of the National Health Service since its inception, and the number of complaints about the service received by his department and the Ophthalmic Services Committees.
    Mr. Maclay: Between July, 1948, and December, 1959, the number of sight tests provided in Scotland was approximately 5½ millions; in the same period 93 complaints were investigated.
    Mr. Russell: Does not my right hon. Friend's Answer show that on the whole these services have been of great benefit to the public and that both opticians and ophthalmic surgeons have done a thoroughly good job?
    Mr. Maclay: I thoroughly agree with what my hon. Friend has said.

    Messrs. Hall, Russell & Co., Aberdeen
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from Messrs. Hall, Russell & Company, Aberdeen, concerning unemployment in Aberdeen; and what reply he has sent.
    Mr. Maclay: None, Sir, but I am aware of this firm's problems which are unfortunately shared by many similar yards throughout the country.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Is the Secretary of State aware that this firm is making every possible effort to secure fresh orders and can he back those efforts by making representations to the Departments concerned that, where Government contracts are involved, a fair share should go to development districts such as Aberdeen?
    Mr. Maclay: I have a great admiration for this firm from my past knowledge of it, and I shall certainly bear in mind what the hon. Lady has said.

    Glasgow (Industrial Requirements)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Scotland, in view of the fact that industries are being transferred from Glasgow to meet the needs of the overspill population in the nearby towns, what consultations he has had with the President of the Board of Trade regarding the industrial requirements of Glasgow under the Local Employment Bill.
    Mr. Maclay: I am in close and constant touch with my right hon. Friend who has, as the hon. Member will be aware, included Glasgow in the first list of development districts under the Local Employment Bill.
    Mr. Rankin: How are the two of you getting on? Is the Secretary of State aware that under the overspill agreement his job is to get industry out of Glasgow and under the development district list the purpose of his right hon. Friend is to get industry into Glasgow? How are the two of them to be reconciled in contrary jobs? Is this not the politics of Bedlam? Would it not be far better if the right hon. Gentleman took a sensible view and built two new towns for Glasgow and pumped industry into them?
    Mr. Maclay: That supplementary question is completely different from the one with which the hon. Member started. To deal with the first point, my contacts with the President of the Board of Trade are highly constructive. I would add that suitable projects whether in Glasgow or overspill receiving areas will be eligible for assistance under the Bill if they provide relief for unemployment in Glasgow.

    Illegal Fishing
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he has taken against the masters and owners of the Scottish east coast seine-net fishing vessels, reported on Thursday, 17th February, to the Stornoway fishery officer and the police for illegal fishing within territorial waters off North Tolsta, Isle of Lewis.
    Mr. Maclay: After investigating the reports referred to, I have passed the papers to the Procurator Fiscal at Stornoway.
    Mr. MacMillan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the only respite we have had from this form of poaching in the islands was during the two or three days which he spent, very conspicuously, last summer in Broad-bay? Ever since the right hon. cat has gone, the mice have been back playing in that area. Would he not agree that what is needed is something permanent in Broadbay to prevent this sort of thing—not necessarily the Secretary of State, but something to represent him in a very effective way? Would he not consider the importance of basing something locally there?
    Mr. Maclay: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's reference to my visit to Broadbay. I assure him that, as I think he knows, we have given very careful consideration to the position in Broad-bay but he cannot expect me in public to say all the things that we are doing in that part of the world, because it would be very unwise.
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in view of the threat to the livelihood of inshore fishermen in the Western Isles from illegal fishing by seine-net stranger vessels, he will introduce legislation to

    1019
    provide for much heavier fines on conviction, for the detention in port of the vessels concerned for repeated offences, the prosecution of the owner or owners in person, withdrawal of the masters' tickets, and branding of vessels involved in repeated offences by painting them a bright yellow for easier identification; and if he will reconsider the proposal to provide locally based speed boats and a Q-boat cruiser.
    Mr. Maclay: The maximum penalties for illegal seine-net fishing, among other offences, were recently increased by the Sea Fish Industry Act, 1959, and I do not consider that further legislation on the lines proposed would be justified. The arrangements for fishery protection in this and other areas, including the use of speed boats, are kept constantly under review and the hon. Member will not expect me to make public particulars of our plans.
    Mr. MacMillan: I, too, would hate to betray in public the ineffectiveness of the new measures of the Secretary of State, judging by results, but may I ask him whether something might be done along the lines suggested by implication in the Prime Minister's letter to me last summer in which he said that the maximum fines were seldom imposed? Is not a higher minimum fine in the first place called for? Is it not also time that we took unorthodox methods instead of the ones which are so well known and easily evaded with contempt by poachers in this area who come, not from abroad, but from the East Coast of Scotland?
    Mr. Maclay: I feel that we must keep this matter in perspective. I am very much aware of the concern felt about the matter in the hon. Gentleman's constituency and in other parts of the West Coast, but so far only six complaints have been received during the present winter season. We are doing some unorthodox things which, I continue to say, I shall not discuss in public.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these boats tap the wireless communications of fishery cruisers and can spot approaching aircraft? Would not the best way of identification, which is the great problem about prosecution, be to use helicopters in that area? They could be used for
    1020
    ambulance services when they are not being used for spotting poachers.
    Mr. Maclay: I assure the right hon. Gentleman that all these possibilities have been considered. I expect that the right hon. Gentleman considered them even during the earlier stages of development of the helicopter, but there are difficulties about using helicopters for identification purposes.
    Mr. MacMillan: As it is obvious that we shall not get an effective reply, I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.
    Mr. John MacLeodasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will arrange for fishery protection vessels to give increased protection against illegal trawling, which is taking place in the Gairloch area of Wester Ross.
    Mr. Maclay: I have received no reports in recent months of illegal fishing in the Gairloch area of Wester Ross. I can, however, assure my hon. Friend that regular patrols of the area are being maintained by the fishery cruisers and that I shall arrange to supplement these if the need arises.
    Mr. MacLeod: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have been in correspondence for some time with the Joint Under-Secretary of State on this matter? Does he realise that it is often disastrous for local fishermen, when the bottom of the inshore waters is scraped in the way which is being done at present? Illegal trawling is being carried an. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that at least for the next two months, while white fishing is in progress in the region, adequate protection is given?
    Mr. Maclay: I am aware of the great importance of this mattter. As I have said, I have arranged that regular patrols of the area will be maintained by fishery cruisers during this critical period.

    Teacher Training Colleges (Graduates)
    Mr. Brewisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of graduates in arts and pure science, respectively, who entered teacher training colleges in the year 1959.
    Mr. Maclay: Six hundred and fifty-six arts graduates and 202 graduates in pure science, excluding graduates in applied science.
    Mr. Brewis: Am I not right in thinking that these figures show an increase on the previous year and are therefore reasonably encouraging?
    Mr. Maclay: I think that that is a correct assessment. The number of graduates in the arts rose by 49 and the number of graduates in pure science rose by 35 compared with the previous session, and this shows that progress has been made.
    Miss Herbison: The right hon. Gentleman will agree that the number is still too small and one could not possibly say that it is even reasonably satisfactory.
    Mr. Maclay: I do not think that any Secretary of State is ever reasonably satisfied about anything, although some conditions are better than they might be.

    Salford Hotel, Invergordon (Licensing Application)
    Mr. John MacLeodasked the Secretary of State for Scotland why he has refused authority to Mrs. L. S. Thomson, Salford Hotel, Invergordon, for the sale and supply of excisable liquor under the Licensing Act, 1949.
    Mr. Maclay: I considered Mrs. Thomson's application with great care, but I found no sufficient reason within the existing principles which govern such matters in State Management Areas to justify the grant of an authority in her case.
    Mr. MacLeod: Does my right hon. Friend realise that this is a disgraceful injustice? There is only one licensed hotel in Invergordon. This complete monopoly of State control in the area must be broken. It is intolerable that this should go on and that competition should not be allowed. Further, does my right hon. Friend realise that the local licensing authority said that the licence should be granted? Will he review the position?
    Mr. Maclay: I am aware of the problems which are raised by my hon. Friend's supplementary question. There is on the Order Paper a later Question
    1022
    referring to this matter, which I shall be answering.
    Mr. MacLeod: In view of the unsatisfactory reply, I give notice that I shall try to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Land Drainage
    Mr. Willisasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many improvement orders have been made under the Land Drainage (Scotland) Act, 1958 and the acreage of land covered by these orders.
    Mr. Maclay: So far, only one improvement order involving twenty-nine acres of agricultural land has been made under this Act.
    Mr. Willis: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it will take 20,000 years to reclaim the land which it was proposed to reclaim under the Act? Does not he think that he should give much more urgent attention to this matter? It is important, and something ought to be done.
    Mr. Maclay: I agree about the importance of the matter, but there are at present sixty-four applications for orders at various stages of consideration. The problem is that the new procedure and safeguards included in the Act mean that, to begin with, at any rate, progress must necessarily be slow.

    Highland Problems
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will form a Highland development board to take the place of some of the existing machinery for dealing with Highland problems.
    Mr. Maclay: No, Sir. The Government are not convinced that the appointment of a new board is needed or would be effective.
    Mr. Grimond: While some existing authorities, such as the one on which I have the honour to serve, are particularly good, is it not the case that many of their recommendations lie unimplemented, that the situation is changing owing to the new Act and that there is need for executive action in the Highlands? If the Secretary of State will not set up a board, will he give an undertaking to review the situation?
    Mr. Maclay: The hon. Member will be aware that, in addition to local authorities and the Panel on which he serves, there are many specialised bodies dealing with various aspects of the Highland problem. Some specialisation is essential, and I am not convinced that yet another body would add to the effectiveness of the existing bodies. My mind is not completely closed on the matter, and I will go on watching it.

    State Management Areas
    Sir D. Robertsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now consider restoring to private enterprise the State drink monopoly in the Burghs of Annan, Dingwall, Invergordon, and neighbouring parishes, so that the licensing laws of Scotland will prevail throughout the country.
    Mr. Maclay: The hon. Member's Question raises the whole principle of the disinterested management schemes operating under Acts of 1921 and 1949 on both sides of the Border. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary referred to this subject during the debate on 29th January and I have nothing to add at the present time to what he then said.
    Sir D. Robertson: Is it not intolerable that Regulations which were brought in under D.O.R.A. in 1916 should be still continued since the causes that brought them about disappeared forty years ago? As a member of a Conservative Government, does my right hon. Friend think it right to go on showing a complete lack of will to right this situation?
    Mr. Maclay: My hon. Friend will be aware that this problem raises major questions of principle which need the most careful consideration. I do not think that I should add to the reply which I have already given.
    Mr. MacLeod: Could not this matter be considered by the Guest Committee?
    Mr. Maclay: It is not specifically included in the Guest Committee's terms of reference, but I have little doubt that during its hearings it will learn a certain amount about public opinion in respect of State management areas.

    Variation of Trusts Act, 1958
    Major Hicks Beachasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether
    1024
    he is aware that great hardship is occurring to a number of beneficiaries under Scottish trusts because the Variation of Trusts Act, 1958, does not apply to such trusts; and if he will introduce legislation to deal with this problem.
    Mr. Maclay: The law relating to variation of trust purposes is being considered by the Law Reform Committee for Scotland. Until the Committee's report is received, it would be premature to consider legislation.
    Major Hicks Beach: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the great injustice which exists at the moment to beneficiaries under Scottish trusts? On application to the courts in England, one can get a trust varied, but one cannot in Scotland.
    Mr. Maclay: I am aware of this problem, but I should not like to comment until my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate has received the report of the Law Reform Committee.

    Tay Road Bridge
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how long it will take to complete the trial borings which have been authorised in connection with the building of a Tay road bridge at Dundee.
    Mr. Maclay: I understand that the boring will start in about three weeks and will take about two months to complete.
    Mr. Thomson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, on the basis of that Answer, local authorities will be able to lay the Provisional Order with the completed plans before Parliament by next November, but yet it is said that it will take the Government six years after that to get the bridge completed? Will the right hon. Gentleman repudiate this timetable and tell us that the matter will be treated much more urgently?
    Mr. Maclay: I have not heard the statement to which the hon. Gentleman refers, but each stage of the operation will receive my most careful consideration as it is reached.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS PROCEEDINGS (TELEVISION)
  Mr. Donnellyasked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the practicability of televising the proceedings of Parliament.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): The Government have given careful thought to various possible forms of televising the proceedings of Parliament.
  The technical and financial objections to broadcasting them in full are decisive. I am advised that it would be feasible to prepare from films a short daily programme consisting of selected parts of our proceedings, but that the technical facilities required in the Chamber would, at best, cause some inconvenience to hon. Members and others present. The process of editing would, moreover, raise delicate problems.
  As I have said in the House recently, the question of televising its proceedings is primarily one for the House itself. But from inquiries they have made the Government are satisfied that this proposal does not at present command the support necessary to justify so radical a departure from our traditions.
  Mr. Donnelly: As the right hon. Gentleman has said that this is a matter for the House, would he consider publishing in the form of a White Paper the technical report he has received, so that the House can be fully acquainted with the factors which he has had to weigh?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I think it is clear that if we were to have a full, all-the-time service that would be very expensive in capital and in annual expenditure and would also create a lot of problems with regard to frequencies. I do not think it is necessary to publish a White Paper, as all this is generally known.
  If we had something much smaller and less ambitious, there would necessarily be an intensification of the lighting, I am informed, and there would be a number of cameras in various parts of the Galleries, which would mean not more than an inconvenience. On the general question, I have thought that the Government ought not to propose a
  1026
  change in what is a society of which we are all members, unless it was fairly clear that it was the general wish that it should be done. The onus lies upon those who want the change. Therefore, in these circumstances, the Government do not intend to make any proposals.
  Sir T. Moore: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the sense of relief which most of us feel at this announcement now that we know that our anxieties about this proposal have been definitely removed?
  The Prime Minister: I think there may be a certain sense of relief both inside and outside the House.
  Mr. Gaitskell: As the Prime Minister has said, this is essentially a matter for the House as a whole. I am not disposed to quarrel with the interim decision which the Government have made and I certainly would not look on this in any way as a party issue, but would the Prime Minister reconsider the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Donnelly)? I think it would be of interest to hon. Members if a fuller statement could be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT as to precisely what is involved in this and what the difficulties are, not so much of televising the whole proceedings—which most of us realised was really out of the question—but of the other proposal mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman.
  The Prime Minister: I will consider circulating a more elaborate document, but this is fairly simple. If we want the whole thing, then that is out on capital and expenditure grounds, and I do not think that anyone really wants to make all the necessary changes in frequencies. If we want an hour at the end of each day, technically it can be done but with a certain degree of inconvenience—always a rather stronger light than now and a certain number of cameras present. The question is, do we want that done?
  Hon. Members: No.
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that the technical points are the only practical considerations, because they would be no more than rather inconvenient, and there would be rather stronger light. It remains a question of

  1027
  whether the House wants it, whether we should have half an hour taken out of the proceedings each day. On that, I feel that the House is not anxious to make this change at present.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Judging by the noise, that is certainly the view of the majority of Members. Nevertheless, in the intrests of those who have not ruled out this possibility altogether, will the right hon. Gentleman do as I ask and circulate a fuller statement?
  The Prime Minister: I will certainly consider it.

  AFRICA (WHITE MINORITIES)
  Mr. Stonehouseasked the Prime Minister if, at the forthcoming meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers, he will propose a Commonwealth scheme for assistance, including resettlement, to the white minorities in Africa.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Stonehouse: Would the Prime Minister agree that, while all of us would accept that those Europeans who accept democracy should be perfectly free to stay in these Territories, there is a fearful problem building up for Europeans who will not accept individual political equality? Is not that a problem in which the British Commonwealth could help?
  The Prime Minister: I do not quite understand the motive behind this Question. It seems to me that any other answer than the one I gave would be the abandonment of the whole concept of partnership between Africans, Europeans and Asians, and would involve economic disaster for all the Territories concerned.
  Mr. Biggs-Davison: In considering these matters, should not we remember that some of these white minorities, patronisingly referred to in this Question, are longer-established than some of the surrounding African tribes?
  The Prime Minister: Indeed. All over Africa; sometimes for generations and sometimes for centuries, they have often settled on land which, when they arrived, was without population.

  CIVIL DEFENCE (WARNING SYSTEMS)
  Mr. Zilliacusasked the Prime Minister in view of the Government's decision to install a ballistic missile early warning station and the reference in paragraph 49 of the Defence White Paper to the development of the civil defence warning and monitoring system, if he will instruct the Minister of Defence and the Secretary of State for the Home Department to prepare a joint report co-ordinating these two warning systems and relating them to the Government's civil defence policy for the evacuation of 12,000,000 people in case of war.
  The Prime Minister: I am satisfied that on all these matters there is adequate consultation and co-ordination between my right hon. Friends.
  Mr. Zilliacus: Is the Prime Minister aware that on 21st November, 1957, the Home Secretary replied to a Question from me and said that the Government's civil defence policy was based on anticipating long enough notice of the outbreak of hostilities to evacuate 12 million people? Does not that need relating to a rocket warning system of four minutes?
  The Prime Minister: These are large questions for me to deal with in question and answer. What I was asked was whether I would instruct the Minister of Defence and the Secretary of State to prepare a joint report. I do not think that would be very valuable. They already consult together and keep in touch with an ever-changing situation, which there must be in a matter so complicated as this. As for the motives which lie behind this Question, I think the whole House understands them.
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister if he is satisfied that adequate arrangements can be made for Ministerial consultations for the purpose of taking decisions in the event of radar warning of the approach of intercontinental missiles; and if he will make a statement.
  The Prime Minister: The answer to the first part of the Question is "Yes, Sir". It would not be in the public interest to make any statement about these arrangements.
  Mr. Hughes: Is the Prime Minister satisfied that in this four minutes he will be able to get in touch with the Leader of the House or with the Chancellor of the Exchequer? Will he not be virtually dictator and will not that be enough to give his right hon. Friend the Leader of the House another chill?
  The Prime Minister: I always try to anticipate the hon. Member's supplementary questions, because I know he never puts down a Question with the purpose of getting an Answer, but only as a kind of peg on which to hang his supplementary question. That is his method. How far it is an abuse of our procedure I do not know, but it adds enormously to the gaiety of Parliament. All I can say is that this time I was not able to anticipate him, and I give him the advantage.

  DR. HASTINGS BANDA
  Mr. Fletcherasked the Prime Minister what representations he has received from Sir Roy Welensky concerning the release of Dr. Hastings Banda from detention at the present time; and what reply has been made to these representations.
  The Prime Minister: Communications between Prime Ministers in the Commonwealth are confidential.
  Mr. Speaker: Dr. Thompson.
  Mr. Fletcher rose
  Mr. Speaker: I am sorry I did not see the hon. Member rise. Mr. Fletcher.
  Mr. Fletcher: Would the Prime Minister say whether it is correct that he is under great pressure from Sir Roy Welensky not to release Dr. Banda? Would the right hon. Gentleman recognise that it is his responsibility and his obligation to make a decision in this respect? May we have an assurance from him, with a view to the Monckton Commission being as successful as possible, that he will take an early decision for the release of Dr. Banda?
  The Prime Minister: I did not expect a supplementary question from that rather unexpected quarter. The hon. Member has changed his position, but not his character—coelum non animum mutat.
  1030
  The answer to the supplementary question, as the hon. Member knows, is that the release of Dr. Banda is a matter for the Governor to advise, having regard to the security situation.
  Mr. Brockway: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is not only a matter for the Governor's advice, but that it is also a matter for Her Majesty's Government? Does he appreciate that the continued detention of Dr. Hastings Banda, without trial, when he has been vindicated by a Commission which the Government themselves have appointed, is offending the moral opinion of the world?
  The Prime Minister: The question has often been raised here and the answer is always the same. The matter is primarily for the Governor, having regard to the security situation. On the general question of the release of detainees and the ending of the emergency, great progress has been made, but I think that the detailed question should be put to the Colonial Secretary.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that he himself admitted that the decision in this matter rested ultimately with Her Majesty's Government? In view of the impression which earlier answers created, that the Government have this matter under urgent consideration, may we expect a further statement in the near future?
  The Prime Minister: I will consider that; but, as I have said quite frankly and as the right hon. Gentleman knows, it rests with the Governor. Of course, it is within the power of the Government to remove the Governor or dismiss him or override him, but those are very great decisions and are questions which should be decided, as the right hon. Gentleman knows from his own experience, in the best possible way. Of course, the ultimate responsibility is on the Government and we do not shrink from it.
  Mr. Fletcher: Does not the Prime Minister agree that the ultimate consideration in this matter is to ensure that the deliberations of the Monckton Commission are successful? Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that that is his ultimate responsibility and that many people are of the opinion that, in the

  1031
  interests of the success of the Monckton Commission, it is most important that Dr. Banda should be released, so as to be able to give his free and independent advice to that Commission as soon as possible?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Member is right. The ultimate consideration is what is best in a very difficult and delicate situation which must confront us in Africa this year, next year and perhaps for several years to come—what is the best way to try to help in these complicated problems. I am very glad to hear the hon. Member's high tribute to the importance of the work of the Monckton Commission in this respect.
  Mr. Dugdale: The right hon. Gentleman maintains that the responsibility is that of the Governor, with which view we on this side of the House do not agree. Has he given his opinion to the Governor and has he clearly expressed his view that Dr. Banda should be released?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I have stated the facts and I am not prepared to go beyond them.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  DEFENCE
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Amendment to Question [29th February.]
  That this House approves the Report on Defence, 1960, contained in Command Paper No. 952.—[Mr. Watkinson.]
  Which Amendment was, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
  "recognising the need for an adequate policy for collective defence and security, has no confidence in the defence policy of Her Majesty's Government which, since 1951, has cost more than twelve thousand, five hundred million pounds and which, as set out in Command Paper No. 952, proposes to continue the vacillations and confusions of the Government's nuclear strategy, thereby involving the nation in further substantially increased expenditure whilst providing no prospect of effective defence".—[Mr. G. Brown.]
  Question again proposed, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question.
  3.35 p.m.
  Mr. John Strachey: You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that the N.A.T.O. alliance has from its foundation been symbolised by the sword and the shield. The sword represented the nuclear deterrent and the shield represented the ground forces drawn up in Europe. Our accusation against the Government on this year's Defence White Paper is that that White Paper reveals that, with a very substantially increased expenditure of public money, the shield is weaker and the sword more brittle.
  To drop the symbols, with an expenditure of about £100 million more than before, we are providing a smaller and, above all, less certain contribution to the N.A.T.O. ground forces, and a smaller and, above all, more vulnerable contribution to the deterrent. We put it to the House that, whatever one's political opinions may be, whatever one's military doctrines may be, whether one is for or against a British contribution to the deterrent, whether one is for or against stronger conventional forces, or for or against conscription, this cannot be a satisfactory or tolerable situation for the defences of this country to have been left in after nine years of the defence policies of the Government.

  1033
  That is why we talk about vacillations and confusion. We think that this sorry pass has been arrived at mainly, if not entirely, because during those nine years we have had nine separate Ministers of Defence with nine separate defence policies—I think that that is an exaggeration; some of them have not had any defence policies at all. But different defence policies or none, there has been no possibility of any steady or constant purpose on which a coherent defence policy could be built. I propose to make good those assertions.
  I want, first, to talk about the sword, the British contribution to the nuclear deterrent. Who can deny that though it is costing, and is likely to cost, more and more, it is becoming less certain and, above all, more vulnerable? Except for one hon. Member, no one has asserted, and it is not true, that we do not have any means of delivering the deterrent. We have Bomber Command and a very formidable force it is. But I put it to the Minister, once again, how long will that means of delivering the deterrent remain credible?
  As I understood it from him, he does not challenge the statement that that is likely to be about five years. Even if that is stretched by the use of the standoff bomb and other means which the Minister mentioned, we are faced with the necessity of replacing that means of delivery after about five years. If one thing has emerged rainy clearly from the White Paper and from the debate, it is that we can be fairly sure that the replacement of Bomber Command after five years will not now be the ill-fated Blue Streak. That is becoming an open secret, at which the White Paper hints and which is becoming clearer and clearer.
  The story of Blue Streak is a sad one. Without claiming to have the secret information which would make one dogmatic on the subject, year after year we have queried Blue Streak and warned against it. My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) has done that continuously from this Box, and it is now becoming perfectly clear that Blue Streak is unlikely ever to go into production.
  Something must replace it. The Minister of Defence mentioned, and the White Paper refers to, mobile launchers which, we are told, are being investigated.
  1034
  The right hon. Gentleman gave the impression that he had plenty of time, and that there were lots of different systems, several of which might be adopted for this purpose. That is not so. If there is to be a credible British contribution to the deterrent five years from now, there is very little time. It is essential to decide soon what the substitute for Bomber Command will be. The idea that we have the resources to develop several alternatives in the way that the Americans do is an impossible proposition.
  There is something more serious than that wrong with the Government's policy on the deterrent. There is something profoundly wrong with the present position of the deterrent, which is far more menacing, and far more necessary to put right, than the replacement of it in five years' time. I propose to quote what I thought were very good and wise words from the speech of the Minister of Defence. He said:
  "If that is so, the only other thing we have to try to retain is the position—and I am trying to face these things as frankly as I can—in which a saturation attack"—
  that is, on us—
  "would not so diminish the power of retaliation held by the West that an aggressor might feel that at least part of his nation could survive a major nuclear exchange. That is why I believe that the West must rely more and more on dispersal, and more and more on the mobile missile, and this largely indestructible deterrent."—[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 29th February. 1960; Vol. 618, c. 862–3.]
  Does the Minister of Defence not realise that the deterrent which he and his predecessors have provided has almost exactly the opposite character? It is terrifyingly vulnerable. It is entirely immobile, and it is menacing. It is not true that it could do no damage to Russia. On the contrary, it is menacing, and is trained on the main Russian cities. At the same time, it is extremely vulnerable for a Russian "pre-emptive strike", as it is called in the military jargon of the day.
  This is an alarming situation. It is seen at its height in the Thor missiles. They are large, clumsy, slow-firing liquid fuel rockets, which are unprotected. They are scattered all over this highly populated island. They are trained on Russian cities, but, at the same time, they are right under the enemy's guns. They are sitting targets

  1035
  for a pre-emptive strike. No one pretends that they are not.
  I put it to the Minister and to the House that it is asking a good deal of the Russians not to object to this. Is not the decision to install this form of deterrent the very opposite of the form which the Minister told us was the proper form? Is not this one of the most reckless decisions ever taken by a Government in this country? It may be that when the Minister of Defence replies he will say, "Well, there might have been some force in that, but that is to be put right by this early warning system".
  The early warning system does not improve the position of the Thors. The Minister of Defence said that if the Russians were obliging enough to fire their missiles from the Urals in Siberia we would get 15 minutes' warning. We ought not to found our defence policy on the Russians adopting the course most convenient to us. What would happen if the Russians decided to fire not from Siberia but from East Germany?
  Surely the Minister will not tell us that we will get 15 minutes' warning if that happens. Some people have claimed that we will get four minutes' warning. Some people have claimed that we will get no warning. The suggestions that the Fylingdales early warning system will be of any use for our Thor rockets cannot be sustained.
  I was astonished by the statement in the Memorandum issued by the Secretary of State for Air. In paragraph 19, the early warning system is referred to as
  "… precluding surprise attacks with missiles …"
  At best we will get four minutes' warning, yet the system is described as "precluding surprise attacks with missiles" I have never seen a more outrageously untrue statement in a Service memorandum.
  The Minister of Defence (Mr. Harold Watkinson): I thought that the right hon. Gentleman would pay me the courtesy of listening to my speech. I explained that four minutes was enough for Bomber Command to get into the air.
  Mr. Strachey: How many bombers does the Minister of Defence think that he would get off in four minutes? The United States S.A.C., which is not usually considered to be in a low state of readiness, regards 15 minutes' warning as the minimum. With four minutes' warning we would be lucky if we got off any bombers—and it is doubtful if we shall get four minutes' warning.
  The Fylingdales early warning system is not intended for this country. As the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) said yesterday, it is intended as a early warning system for America. I have no objection to that. It is right that there should be an installation in Britain which gives that much warning to America. I am not objecting to that. I am objecting to the pretence that it is of the slightest use to this country. That is the position of the Thor missile. It is exactly opposite to what the Minister said was the desired effect of our contribution to the deterrent.
  Bomber Command, our other contribution to the deterrent, is certainly better than the Thor missile, but I put it to the Minister that he should also consider making Bomber Command less vulnerable. He should consider very carefully a worldwide dispersal of Bomber Command, or portions of it, and improving the means of protecting bases for it.
  The moral of this is that for a given sum of money which we can spend on our contribution to the deterrent it is far better, far safer, and far more reasonable to provide a smaller deterrent smaller, that is to say, in the number of launching sites, whether they be bomber or missile bases, but less vulnerable sites. This is at once very much more reasonable and very much less provocative. Thor, at any rate, provides not so much a deterrent as a provocation. We are pointing a pistol at our opponent's heart, but it is a pistol which it is quite easy for him to knock out of our hands in a moment.
  That is the very worst form of deterrent that can be provided. I would ask the Minister of Defence to think of this point very carefully and let no catch-phrases, like "Maginot-mindedness", and the rest, which are often used in this connection, deter him from concentrating his attention on the protection of the deterrent.

  1037
  It is clear that the right hon. Gentleman's mind is working in this direction, because he went on to talk about the necessity for mobile launchers for our contribution to the deterrent. I was somewhat alarmed when he talked in terms of an airborne mobile launcher. As my right hon. Friend said, this is all in the far future. It may one day be a very practical method, but it is doubtful whether it has much reference to what is needed five years hence.
  It is not for the Opposition to be dogmatic on these matters; indeed, it is impossible for them to be so without secret information, but my right hon. Friend was clearly right when he said that to the outside observer, at any rate, everything points more and more obviously to the nuclear rocket-carrying submarine as the obvious successor to Bomber Command as the vehicle for a British deterrent. This is not merely an idea—a gleam in somebody's eye; it has been worked out and is actually in existence in the United States of America. It is not yet perfected, but it is thoroughly realistic in terms of what is likely to be the situation five years hence.
  I have heard two views on this matter from the experts. Must a submarine designed for the carrying of rockets for delivery of the deterrent necessarily be nuclearly-propelled? Such a submarine has far more endurance, but is it absolutely necessary? Some experts, at any rate, believe that there is a good case to be made out for a submarine propelled by normal means. It has less endurance, but much greater silence. The Minister should examine the question whether the rôle of the Navy should be changed—I am dealing here with nuclear warfare and not with limited conventional warfare. That is a very large proposition, which I realise would produce much resistance, but the possibility must be faced sooner or later that in nuclear warfare the Navy should be an underwater Navy or nothing.
  The Minister of Defence spoke about our new carriers. He said that "Victorious" had an admirable air warning system, and that it had impressed the Americans as being very much better than their own. I was interested to hear that, because last July I happened to be in Norfolk, Virginia,
  1038
  when "Victorious" arrived and took part in joint exercises with the American fleet. The Minister is quite correct in saying that the Americans were greatly impressed with the air warning radar system of "Victorious", and that many thought it superior to anything they had.
  But if the Minister believes that the system of "Victorious", with all its thousands of valves—or the American system, for that matter—will protect a carrier on the high seas against an atomic air attack carried out by aircraft like the Victor II, flying at 600 miles an hour and able to lob a stand-off nuclear bomb at it, I do not. A carrier force of surface ships is just not a credible method of contributing to the deterrent.
  A commander of the American Sixth Fleet is attributed with the famous claim that he could do terrible damage if, in a nuclear war, he could keep afloat for an hour—but he went on to say that he was very doubtful whether he could keep afloat for an hour. I say nothing against the commando carriers. But we are spending immense sums of money on surface fleet carriers and that will he a little unfortunate if, in the end, the Minister decides that the submarine is the best replacement for the present form of nuclear deterrent. At any rate, the Minister ought to decide upon something quickly as a replacement for Bomber Command.
  I now want to deal with several suggestions which were made during yesterday's debate. There was a suggestion that we should scrap—or half-scrap—the British contribution to the nuclear deterrent. The right hon. Member for Flint, West spoke in that strain and, judging from the Amendment that has been put down by my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) we shall have another speech on those lines if he is successful in catching the eye of the Chair. The right hon. Member for Flint, West argued powerfully against having a British contribution to the nuclear deterrent, but at the end of his speech he seemed to draw back and to say that, after all, we must still maintain one. His words were:
  "Nor do I think that we should leave the nuclear Club"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th February, 1960; Vol. 618, c. 926.]
  He apparently drew back from the idea of entirely scrapping the British contribution to the nuclear deterrent.

  1039
  I have a suspicion that my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington will speak in the same strain. If he tells us that we ought to kep our existing stock of nuclear weapons and our means of delivering them, but that we should spend no money on keeping them up to date, I can only say that he will be putting forward about the most untenable proposition that he has ever put before the House—and that is saying a good deal, because he has put some fairly untenable propositions before the House in the past.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: When he was Minister of Defence?
  Mr. Strachey: I was coming to that.
  If we stop spending money on keeping up to date our means of delivering our contribution to the nuclear deterrent, in a few years' time it will simply become scrap iron, in which case we might just as well have scrapped it right away. If this is my right hon. Friend's new view let him have the courage of his convictions and say, "Scrap the British contribution to the nuclear deterrent here and now". I say "his new view", because it is a new view from him. He is one of the fathers of the British contribution to the nuclear deterrent.
  I happen to think that my right hon. Friend was right in the past, but if he now thinks that he was wrong he should say "Scrap it; get rid of it," and not attempt to have it both ways by saying that we should preserve what we have got but not spend anything on keeping it up to date. It costs a great deal to keep it up to date. Either it must be scrapped or kept up to date. If we attempt to have it both ways, I can only say that that is neither limited war nor total war, but simply total nonsense.
  The only hon. Member who yesterday went the whole way and said that we should simply scrap the British contribution to the nuclear deterrent was the Leader of the Liberal Party, the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). That was a perfectly possible thing to argue. It was argued powerfully by the right hon. Member for Flint, West, although he retreated from the conclusion in the end. It will be no military catastrophe—of course not—if we scrap
  1040
  our contribution to the deterrent and concentrate purely on conventional weapons. It is merely a form of extreme integration and extreme specialisation within the N.A.T.O. Alliance.
  The objections to it are not essentially military, but political. It means absolute and total dependence upon the United States of America. I do not say that that is fatal, either. There are circumstances in which that could be accepted. To get the enormous advantage of stopping the spread of nuclear weapons round the world, that might well be worth doing, but to do it for no particular advantage whatever would be a mistake. Although it would be no military catastrophe to do it, it would certainly have no moral advantage, either. There is not the slightest pacifist advantage to it.
  We all know that the suggestion is being advocated largely for pacifist or semi-pacifist reasons. The truth is that to get that advantage we have to contract out not merely of the British contribution to the nuclear deterrent; we have to scrap that, scrap the N.A.T.O. alliance altogether and, if we can, contract out of the cold war altogether. We have, in fact, to go in for full unilateral nuclear disarmament, and full unilateral disarmament altogether, presumably. That is what my pacifist friends want.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes indicated assent.
  Mr. Strachey: I see one of them nodding his agreement. That is a perfectly coherent and logical policy; I have never denied it. All I say to my hon. Friends who take that view is that they have not quite converted everybody to it yet.
  I would refer to the recent statements on the subject of disarmament by Mr. Khrushchev. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) referred to them yesterday, but they are worth referring to again because they are rather striking. It will be recalled that in his great speech on disarmament, with much of which I agree very much, to the Supreme Soviet last January, Mr. Khrushchev used, for example, these terms:
  "Soviet scientists, engineers and workers have made it possible to equip our Army with armaments never known to man—atomic, hydrogen, rocket and other modern weapons. … The Soviet Union has stockpiled the

  1041
  necessary quantities of atomic and hydrogen weapons. Our State possesses powerful rocketry. With the present development of military technique, military aviation and the Navy have lost their former importance. These arms are not reduced, but replaced. Our Armed Forces have been to a considerable degree regeared to rocket and nuclear weapons."
  Incidentally, that last sentence is the only reason, but a sufficient reason, why our land armed forces on the Continent have to be equipped with some form or other of tactical nuclear weapons.
  I have never claimed, and do not claim now—it was a mistake for S.H.A.P.E. and N.A.T.O. ever to claim it—that the tactical nuclear weapons gave any advantage to us. This was a frightful error committed by S.H.A.P.E. and by the Supreme Commander. When, however, the Russians claim—1 expect, quite rightly—that their forces have been "regeared" to rocket and nuclear weapons, it is simply impossible to leave ours without these weapons. That is the simple reason why one cannot oppose having them.
  I am not complaining about Mr. Khrushchev's remarks. He has a perfect right to have his deterrents and we have a perfect right to have ours, too. The only point I am making is that Mr. Khrushchev agrees with me and does not agree with my hon. Friends. Mr. Khrushchev is a multilateral disarmament man. He believes that disarmament is highly desirable, but that it must be on both sides. He has not the slightest intention of unilateral disarmament, and he will keep his—
  Mr. K. Zilliacus: Is it not true that the Russians have demobilised between 2 million and 3 million men unilaterally?
  Mr. Strachey: Yes. That is quite true and I was coming to that. My hon. Friend should, however, note these remarks of Mr. Khrushchev:
  "These arms are not reduced, but replaced."
  That is what he said and that is the fact. Mr. Khrushchev is coming into the nuclear world, but I do not draw very much consolation from that.
  Mr. Khrushchev's position on this matter is perfectly reasonable. I believe that he would be willing to have multilateral disarmament, and it is vitally
  1042
  important that we take him up on the offers he makes on that. He is certainly not a unilateral disarmament man. If I criticise anything in that speech of his, it is that he seems to me, if I may criticise his military doctrine, to be over-emphasising the nuclear element in his armaments.
  If I am not out of order, it seems to me that Mr. Khrushchev is just going into what I would call his "Sandys" period on this matter and that Russian military doctrine, which for years has undoubtedly underestimated nuclear weapons, is now going to the other extreme and greatly overestimating them. It is, apparently, a process through which all Governments go and he will probably come out on the other side and see that there has to be a balance in these things.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: My right hon. Friend's argument is against unilateral disarmament. Can he explain how that fits in with the Labour Party policy of the unilateral ending of hydrogen bomb tests?
  Mr. Strachey: The Labour Party argument on that took a certain risk, but we thought that that amount of unilateral disarmament was worth while and we advocated it. What has happened, curiously enough, has been that although there is no agreement on the ending of nuclear tests, both sides, as it were, have ended them unilaterally, for the time being at least. That is some advance. I see no other point in my hon. Friend's interjection.
  Mr. S. Silverman: Think again.
  Mr. Strachey: I am sorry to be disturbing my hon. Friend so much. That happens annually or biennially. I was talking of Mr. Khrushchev's overemphasis, as I see it, on nuclear weapons. There is, however, the difference between his doctrine and the doctrine of the present Minister of Aviation, that while both of them have reduced conventional forces very drastically indeed, after Mr. Khrushchev had reduced his conventional forces drastically, as he has done, he still has plenty left, but I am not sure that we can say the same for ourselves. That is the next point to which I should like to come. So much, therefore, for the deterrent and the state of things in

  1043
  which the Government have left us in regard to the deterrent.
  The second indictment we make of the Government's defence policy is that they are scraping and scrimping our obligations to N.A.T.O. in regard to conventional forces. I think that there is nothing more deplorable in this deplorable White Paper than paragraph 5. It says:
  "Our concern for maintaining the strength of this country's contribution to N.A.T.O. has recently been shown by the decisions of the Government to retain …"
  and then the words are—
  "for the time being seven brigade groups in the British Army of the Rhine, and to defer …"
  the word is "defer"—
  "the withdrawal of certain fighter squadrons from R.A.F. Germany".
  The Minister of Defence went out of his way, I thought, to try to counteract the effect of that deplorable paragraph, but what will be read abroad, of course, is the paragraph in the White Paper. It is pouring a jug of cold water, if ever there was one, on our N.A.T.O. obligations. This essentially is an Army question and I shall leave the details of it to our discussions next week on the Army Estimates.
  When we advocate a much higher priority within our defence policy for honouring our obligations—and they are obligations—to a contribution to the N.A.T.O. shield, it really is not good enough for hon. Members on either side of the House to tell us that that means reintroducing conscription. I know the right hon. Member for Flint, West and my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) both hanker very much indeed after conscription. If it were a question of remaking a mass Army of the old sort with enormous reserves, division after division, which could be sent out to Europe, then, of course, conscription would be the only way to do it, but that is not what is in the question at all. A mass Army of that sort is totally out-of-date in the nuclear age.
  It is a question of scale. What is in question is our obligation to keep something like four divisions with their equipment in Germany today and to keep those divisions really well armed and really up to strength. To say that that requires conscription is simply to mistake
  1044
  the scale of the operation that is necessary, but it is necessary to give that contribution a far higher priority than it is given in this Defence White Paper. If the contribution is not to be bigger than this it has to be of the very highest quality and equipment.
  I put it to the House that if we do not do that two consequences of the gravest kind will follow. If our land contribution in Europe gets smaller and smaller, and weaker and weaker, two things will follow. On the one hand, the new German Army will come to dominate Western Europe. Whatever we think about Germans and Germany that, surely, is a very serious consideration. Secondly, we shall very soon be incapable of entering into any conflict or using forces of any kind without using nuclear weapons.
  I entirely agree with the right hon. Member for Flint, West, in that part of his speech at any rate, that it is the most terrible dilemma in which a Government could put a country to allow its capacity—its capability, as the Americans say—to use non-nuclear forces to become almost negligible. I should have thought that this White Paper was another deplorable step along that road.
  I thought that the most deplorable passage of the whole speech of the Minister of Defence was when he described the scatter of the British Army today all over the world. He described—it is only too true—how large parts of the British Army today are scattered over the world, looking after imperial commitments which very largely no longer exist in bases which very soon will no longer exist. That is not the way to deploy an Army. Of course, we need conscription if we use an Army in that way. On another occasion, quite recently, the Minister of Defence talked about stationing 22,000 men in Cyprus. Could any folly be greater than to have 22,000 men in Cyprus?
  Mr. Watkinson: I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. Member, but I think that we must get the facts clear. I never at any time said "stationing 22,000 men in Cyprus". I said that the size of the Cyprus base had to allow for the possible handling of 22,000 men if it were a staging post for any operation. I never said that it would be a garrison.
  Mr. Strachey: The right hon. Gentleman did not say anything about a staging post or handling up to 22,000 men. However, we can look at the statement in HANSARD, but it seems to me that any scale of that sort is the old policy of scattered bases. It is the worst and most impracticable policy for the British defence forces today.
  What we put to the Minister of Defence is that at the very beginning of his period of office he has to make a series of decisions which will be very difficult and painful decisions. One fully understands that, but, if he does not make them, if he leaves the defence policy to amble on with a division of roughly equal thirds, £500 million for the Army, £500 million for the Navy and £500 million for the Air Force—that, more or less, is what it is—that may be very easy, more agreeable and safer for him, but what it will produce is an ever-greater expenditure of public money for ever less defence.
  I put it to him that there are certain decisions he must face, which none of his predecessors faced. The first is that on the size and character of the British contribution to the deterrent, and, in particular, a credible method for its delivery after five years. He has to decide how to make the deterrent here and now—not waiting five years—less terrifyingly vulnerable than it is today. In that connection, I put to him very seriously that he should seriously consider the actual abolition of the Thors. I do not want to be dogmatic on this. I realise the vast sums of money which have been spent on the Thor, but I very much doubt the utility of these weapons, which, admittedly, are purely first-strike weapons. It seems that if and when he can replace them the sooner they are abolished the better.
  Lastly, on the deterrent, the right hon. Gentleman should most seriously consider the hardening of his V-bomber bases. He should create a really first-rate contribution to the N.A.T.O. land forces—a little larger, not much larger than the present contribution but somewhat larger—and very much better armed and equipped. He should create a fully mobile British expeditionary force which, with the progressive independence of old bases, he will soon find is the only way in which he can even attempt to meet commitments which
  1046
  may arise in many parts of the world. If he would take decisions on these points there could be a coherent and steady purpose in the defence policy which would give us a defence policy that would give us some defence for our money.
  Finally, we ask how we got this way. We got this way. I repeat, because we have had nine Ministers of Defence in the same number of years, some with one policy and some with no policy at all. The latest change, I am bound to tell him, looks very much to us, so far, at any rate, as if it were a change back from a Minister of Defence with the wrong policy to a Minister of Defence with no policy.
  The House will recollect the fable of the frogs and King Log and King Stork. The frogs elected King Log, and that proved unsatisfactory. They then elected King Stork, and that proved still more unsatisfactory, because he began to gobble up the frogs. We had, I think, seven King Logs at the Ministry of Defence in the earlier part of this Government and then, briefly, we had a King Stork; and that was not very satisfactory because he, in the person of the present Minister of Aviation, began to gobble up the Service frogs. Here the Government's record deviates from the fable, because they soon got rid of King Stork. I suspect that we have returned to King Log.
  4.22 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Christopher Soames): The right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) ended with a jolly little story about the frogs and their elections. I intended to begin my speech by congratulating him on his re-election to the seat which he holds on the Labour Party Front Bench.
  The burden of the case, as stated by the right hon. Gentleman and by the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) yesterday, was an allegation that the Government had not provided value for the money spent on defence over the past years. These arguments call for a reasoned reply, because they will undoubtedly be widely read, and if they were not refuted to the satisfaction of the people of this country who provide the money, they could give rise to a widespread feeling of dissatisfaction

  1047
  with the Services which would be fatal at a time when we depend upon volunteers to provide the necessary manpower for our commitments.
  Whether we are getting value for money has been a perennial question, to a greater or lesser degree, for generations, in our defence debates. It is a question which was far easier to answer fifty years ago than it is today. For example, a fleet of warships which all could see at anchor off Spithead, and on which the ultimate security of our islands was based, was something tangible from which everyone could gain a sense of security.
  The capital cost of one new aircraft carrier today, with its complement of modern aircraft, is the equivalent of the cost fifty years ago of no fewer than 17 dreadnoughts or capital ships; and, of course, such a fleet, fifty years ago, made an immeasurably greater contribution to the security of these islands than can one carrier today. Another illustration of the point, not going back fifty years but within the vivid memory of everyone in the House, is that money which provided a number of squadrons of Spitfires in 1940 can today buy one fighter and its armament.
  Furthermore, the strategy which rested on the Grand Fleet and on an expeditionary force was very simple and could readily be understood by those who took no more than a passing interest in such matters, but today, with all the ramifications of modern weapons and techniques and the existence of an explosive power which is so great as to be beyond the bounds of the imagination of man, military strategy has become so complicated as to demand from all who endeavour to understand it a close and detailed study. I believe that these are the main factors which prevent sums of money, however large, from being able to buy today that comfortable feeling of security which it was comparatively easy to provide in the first half of this century.
  This is not a problem which is peculiar to this country. It is the same in the United States, and I have no doubt that it is the same in Russia, too. It is not the fault of the Armed Forces, or of the Government who control them. It is the inevitable result of the scientific and technological breakthrough of the
  1048
  last fifteen years, which has been more revolutionary and stunning than in any other period in the history of man.
  These technical advances and all that flows from them in the complications of military thought and gradations of strategy have provided massive problems for those who have been responsible for our defence arrangements, but to my mind one of the most worrying features of them is the difficulties which they present in public relations—in persuading the people of the wisdom of defence policies and the heavy expenditure which they involve. Yet if we are to maintain our military strength, the first essential is that we should carry with us the minds of the people.
  My purpose this afternoon is to meet the points made by the right hon. Member for Belper and the right hon. Member for Dundee, West on wasteful expenditure and to endeavour to analyse the defence expenditure over the years. I have had the figures for the years covering 1952–53 to 1960–61, inclusive, divided under major headings and totalled. One of the Opposition Amendments on the Order Paper refers to £12,500 million and the other to £13,000 million. I believe that the latter figure to be the more nearly correct. Of this total, about £4,400 million went in pay for Service personnel, reserve forces and civilians; about £500 million in movements; and about £1,400 million in what one might call the inescapable supplies, such as rations, fuel, light and petrol; works, buildings and land account for about £1,200 million; and I have coupled together miscellaneous services and non-effective charges at about £500 million.
  I apologise for wearying the House with so many figures, but I do not think that it is possible to answer the Opposition's charges without going into some detail. These figures total about £8,000 million. That is all inescapable expenditure for having kept under arms during those years a figure varying from 900,000 men in the first year to just under 500,000 today. The total of £8,000 million does not include anything for research, development or production of weapons of any kind.
  I am not saying that some money out of this vast sum has not been unnecessarily spent. For instance, the major changes

  1049
  of 1957 inevitably meant that full value could not be derived from some of the money which had been spent in the years just previously, but to some degree that is inescapable, and, in any event, it amounts to only a fraction of the total. I hope that I carry the right hon. Gentlemen with me when I say that the only way to have made a deep incursion into these figures would have been drastically to reduce the number of men under arms, and to the best of my knowledge it has never been the Opposition's contention that we should have done that.
  In 1957, my right hon. Friend, now Minister of Aviation and then Minister of Defence, took a fresh look at our defence plans for the years ahead, and he reached two conclusions. The first was that any reasonable sum which the country could provide towards defence in the ensuing years would not be sufficient to maintain forces at anything like the level which then existed, between 700,000 and 800,000, and, at the same time, to provide them with the modern weapons and equipment which they had to have if they were to be able to fulfil the Government's defence policy. His second conclusion was that given the weapons, the striking power and the mobility which we could expect to have by the early 1960s, we should have sufficient military strength to meet our commitments with Armed Forces of a size which could be provided by voluntary recruitment. Accordingly, his plan for the reduction of the forces was announced.
  This was a bold decision, because it depended for its success on a considerable increase in the rate of Regular recruitment over what then existed. It was a decision which lesser men might well have feared to take. Had this decision not been taken by the Government, had our forces still been today at the strength they were in 1957, the Defence Estimates for the coming year could hardly have failed to be in the region of £2,000 million, or about £400 million more than they, in fact, are.
  Of the many opinions which were expressed at that time, so far as my memory serves me, none, or virtually none, favoured any further reduction. Indeed, so far as there was opposition to our plan for all-Regular forces, it came from those who feared that we would
  1050
  not get sufficient recruits and who, therefore, thought that the risk was too great. We can take it, therefore, that the Opposition do not criticise the Government on the ground of having kept too many men under arms during these years. The inescapable cost of a force of that size over the period, without the provision of any weapons or equipment of any character, is in the region of £8,000 million.
  I turn now to the remaining £5,000 million, which, in round figures, is the cost of having provided those forces with weapons including not only maintenance and new production, but also research and development. It is not easy to divide this money as between the deterrent in the limited sense of the word and the rest. For instance, as the right hon. Member for Belper said yesterday, we would still have needed a strategic bomber force even if we had not contributed to the West's deterrent power. The best figure that can be arrived at, including for the sake of this argument the V-bomber force as an essential part of the deterrent, is that out of the total of our defence expenditure over the whole period about £1,500 million has gone on the deterrent and its means of delivery.
  It is interesting to analyse the figures for research and production over the years. When the Conservative Government came to power in 1951 the cost of this element of our defence expenditure was rising and was soon to reach a peak. This was the result of the rearmament programme instituted by the Labour Government at the time of Korea. It takes time for such a programme to reach full flow, and the items which had been ordered in 1949 and 1950 were coming off the production lines from 1952 to 1954. We therefore see that the figures for production and research for those years were rising—£652 million in 1952. £745 million in 1953, and levelling off to £748 million in 1954. That was, broadly speaking, the end of that cycle of production, and there was in the following years a steady falling off in the cost of production and research down to a figure of £534 million in 1958.
  It is important to bear in mind that, as there had been virtually no research and development done in the immediate post-war years, the equipment which

  1051
  had come into service through the Korean rearmament programme was basically of the last war type, and would very soon be hopelessly outdated. The need then was for a large-scale research and development programme which could lead to the production of a modern generation of weapons and equipment for all three Services.
  We began to see the equipment which flowed from this research and development programme in the late 1950s, and that is what accounts for the renewed upward turn in the production Vote. From the figure of £534 million in 1958 we had £585 million in 1959, and we now have £651 million in 1960. I admit that a proportion of this money was spent on research and development which led only up blind alleys and from which we got no return. But in view of the startling developments and the speed at which scientists and engineers were opening up new possibilities an element of waste in this is quite inevitable. One may be sure that other countries have found this, too.
  The gravamen of the Opposition's case is that we have not had value for the money we have spent on weapons. Here, I think that there is a distinction of degree to be drawn. On the one hand, there is the allegation that the Government have wasted money in this or that field of defence expenditure, either by failing to produce the goods or by producing the wrong goods. To prove that allegation is an essentially healthy exercise. What, on the other hand, is not healthy, and does nothing but harm, both from the point of view of the Services and of the prestige of the country at large, is to overstate the case and to understate the strength and power of the Services and the weapons they have.
  I will give a short analysis on the credit side of the balance sheet. I shall not go into great detail, because individual Service Estimates come before the House shortly. I will deal with the Army first. For reasons which I have outlined, it could be argued that the vast expenditure incurred as a result of the crisis which sprang from Korea was wasted, on two grounds. The first is that the equipment which was being bought was of outdated patterns. The second is that the greater part of it
  1052
  never had to be used. But I do not accept that argument. The hard fact was that there was danger of the war developing into something much larger, and the Army had to be re-equipped with whatever could be obtained in the quickest possible time. We supported the Opposition in their decision, but we have to face the consequences of it.
  The programme went on into 1954 and it was using up heavy resources. The Army's Vote 7 during those four years totalled £670 million. Yet as soon as it was completed we had to start from the beginning on a new programme of modern equipment. It is the fruits of that equipment which we are now seeing. I went into it all in considerable detail in last year's Estimates Debate, and I will have more to report to the House this year.
  For the purpose of this debate, suffice it to say that much of the equipment is already in service and that when the present programme is completed nearly every item from soldiers' clothing, through small arms, communications, engineer stores, artillery and armoured vehicles, will be of the new generation. The increase in mobility over the past year has been most striking. In simple terms, the number of passenger seats available in R.A.F. transport aircraft has been tripled since 1956.
  Mr. F. J. Bellenger: The point which the right hon. Gentleman has been making is very interesting. Does he mean the passenger lift under Army or Service control, or are these the civilian aeroplanes to which much of his custom is given?
  Mr. Soames: I was referring to transport aircraft of the R.A.F. throughout the world.
  The accretion of the Navy's strength has also been formidable over these years. I go a long way with what the right hon. Gentleman said on this, that of the three elements in which the Navy operates—under the water, on the surface, and in the air—it is under the water and in the air where the Navy's strength must increasingly lie. Examples of this are the new Porpoise class submarines, the new anti-submarine vessels and equipment, their modernised carriers and their modern aircraft, the Scimitar and the Sea Vixen, shortly to be joined by the NA39 strike aircraft.

  1053
  Though, like in every other sphere of defence, we cannot pretend that our fleet could alone master the threat posed by the hordes of Russian submarines in particular, let no one underestimate the contribution which the Royal Navy makes to Western sea power, which is reflected in the considerable tasks allotted to it in N.A.T.O. war plans.
  I have already touched on the growth of Transport Command. Fighter Command has had two generations of fighters, and the P1, with an infinitely higher order of performance, is shortly coming into service. Then there is Bomber Command, with its fleet of Canberra tactical bombers with a nuclear capability, and the V-bomber force, which in the past few years has made a notable contribution—I beg the House not to underestimate it—to the West's deterrent power and which is capable of continuing to do so for many years yet.
  The point made by the right hon. Member for Belper yesterday, whether the equipment and the weapons of the Services represent good value for the money spent upon them is something which, I believe, it is impossible to prove or disprove in times of peace. What I would claim is that the Services today are capable of meeting the commitments that the Government have given them and that, in relation to our wealth, they are making at least a proportionate contribution to Western defensive power.
  I now turn to the differences between the two sides of the House on matters of policy. There are many areas of Government in which a clash between the two major parties on basic principles is of positive advantage to the nation, but defence has never been one of them. In spite of Motions of censure, I wonder just how far we are actually apart in our broad approaches. I am not talking about details but about the fundamentals of policy.
  In the first place, no one will disagree that a primary purpose of our defence policy must be the protection of British interests throughout the world and the maintenance of law and order in territories for which we are responsible. Secondly, we are all agreed, I think, that we must make a contribution to N.A.T.O., and not many will disagree
  1054
  that this must include a tactical nuclear element for the Navy, the Royal Air Force and the Army.
  Next comes the question of whether we should make our own contribution to the West's strategic nuclear deterrent. On this, the Government have had the support of the official Opposition over the years during which the V-bomber force and its weapons have been built up. We have had arguments from time to time, and strong arguments, on the circumstances in which we should be prepared to use this deterrent power, but from the principle of the deterrent and the V-bombers as the means of delivery, the official Opposition have never dissented.
  There is more of this force yet to come off the production line, but we have paid for the larger part of it, and it has reached a high level of efficiency. If we can extend its effective life for some years by modifying its weapons or introducing new ones for it to use then, if I understood the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper aright yesterday, he would agree that it would be militarily wise and economically sound to do so. The main argument between us would seem to rest—and I think that this underlies one of the Labour Party's Amendments and the Liberal Party's Amendment—on whether we should now and in the future be developing a means of delivery that will be credible when the V-bombers have ended their effective life.
  There are two legs to the argument The first is whether we should have a successor weapon to the V-bomber force at all, and the second is concerned with what form it should take. The view of the Government is that we can and should continue to make our contribution to the deterrent. As to the means of delivery, our aim must be to have the best available at the right time, and this means that our thought on the subject must be flexible to take advantage of scientific advance.
  We have, for some years, been developing Blue Streak, and are continuing to do so, but if, in the meanwhile, the possibility presents itself of our being able to acquire some other form of delivery system which through, for example, mobility, could increase its credibility and make it more effective.

  1055
  it may well be that, in the event, it will be on that that we will depend.
  In short, we are rigid in our view that we should continue to make our contribution to the deterrent, but flexible in our view as to what the instrument will be on which we shall be depending after the V-bombers—
  Mr. George Brown: Flexibly rigid, or rigidly flexible?
  Mr. Soames: That is something that the right hon. Gentleman sometimes tries on.
  The right hon. Gentleman said yesterday that the time is not far distant when we will have to go firm on one delivery system or another. I take that point, but I would add that the actual timing plainly depends on what is the expectation of effective life of the V-bombers with the newer generation of weapons. I think that very few people in full possession of the facts and technicalities involved could say when it is necessary—at what exact moment of time it is necessary—to have to go firm, and commit oneself to a particular weapon.
  I come now to the Opposition Amendments on the Order Paper. There are four. The clearest of them all is that put down by the lone figure, the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes). We all know where he stands on these matters. His Amendment is perfectly clear and understandable. His view is that all arms are bad and, never mind what anybody else has, we should not have any. Although the House as a whole profoundly disagrees with his views he has, at least, shown a consistency of thought and purpose that might well be the envy of his right hon. and hon. Friends.
  Then there is the Liberal Amendment, the purpose of which was enlarged on yesterday by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). He was, as usual, totally sincere with the House. He admitted how difficult it is to master the intricacies of these policies. I hope that he will not think that I am meaning him any disrespect when I say that, as he unfolded his thoughts, I found that they reminded me of the Cornish prayer:
  "From ghoulies and ghosties and longleggety beasties and things that go bump in the night, good Lord deliver us."
  1056
  The Liberal Amendment calls upon the Government to abandon their policy of attempting to create an independent nuclear deterrent. If I understood the hon. Gentleman aright, his difference with the Government lies not in the maintenance of the V-bomber force which we already have, but in our plans to continue to make a contribution to the deterrent on the demise of the bombers. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence told the House yesterday of the developments that looked like enabling the V-bomber force to remain an effective instrument, certainly until the mid-'sixties and, perhaps, even to the end of the decade. Here, for a comparatively small sum of money, we have the possibility of lengthening the life of this valuable and efficient force. Surely, every military and economic argument dictates that we should do this, and I believe that, to this end at least—which, I hope, will be well into the 'sixties—we have the support of the hon. Gentleman.
  Then we have the Amendment tabled by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell). He must have been surprised—and, perhaps, a little embarrassed—at the measure, and the quality, of the support it has attracted. The important words in his Amendment are:
  "deplores a … policy based upon a nuclear strategy which … affords … no effective defence."
  Of course, the right hon. Gentleman knows that neither the Russians nor the Americans, who have spent on their forces many times more than we have, can provide for their subjects an effective defence in the full sense of the word.
  This was so even when the right hon. Gentleman himself was Minister of Defence, in the days of the atomic bomb. Then, and ever since then, the peace of the world has rested to a greater degree year by year, not upon the ability to defend but upon a power of destruction that removes all fruits and advantages from war. The right hon. Gentleman has hitherto always supported nuclear strategy. I am more optimistic than was his right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West as to what his views may be today. We have not yet had the pleasure of hearing them, but I have a hunch that there is more to his Amendment than meets the eye.

  1057
  The hon. Member for Dudley, the hon. Gentleman's alter ego, yesterday gave us a clue as to why the right hon. Gentleman put down this Amendment. I think that he put it down because he could not bring himself to sign the most spurious Amendment of the official leadership of the Opposition—
  Mr. E. Shinwell indicated assent.
  Mr. Soames: And I must say that I see his point here. The implication of this Amendment is that the nuclear strategy is right, but that there have been vacillations and confusion. I must say that that comes well from the party opposite. One can argue about the Government's defence policy, one can disagree with it, but the one thing that even its severest critics admit is that it has been consistent over the years. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes. Hitherto, the main complaint from the Opposition has been that the Government have been too consistent and too rigid.
  Mr. Strachey: Would the right hon. Gentleman say that the policy of the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) and the policy of the present Minister of Aviation were the same?
  Mr. Soames: Yes, I certainly would say that they were the same. There have evidently been considerable advances in scientific matters since then. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Of course, there have been considerable advances. It is a matter of degree and emphasis on strategic or tactical weapons.
  The right hon. Member for Belper, if I may say so, made the best of the areas of disagreement which there are bound to be in a subject which is so vital to us and which covers so wide a field, but, in fact, much of his speech yesterday served to underline the wide measure of agreement there is between the thoughts of the official Opposition and the Government on the broad approach to defence policy.
  This is the fifth defence debate to which I have listened as a Minister in a Service Department. Every debate has its theme, which is usually set by the Opposition Amendment. The last four years have produced arguments on major points of policy. I believe it is significant
  1058
  that, this year, the Amendment rests upon the general charge of not enough value for money, and the trend of yesterday's debate was one not of principle but of detail, emphasis and degree.
  Indeed, an independent person reading yesterday's debate would find it hard to comprehend why the House was to be divided on the official Opposition's Amendment. He would see that the main field of argument has been between hon. and right hon. Members above and below the Gangway opposite, and he would have been more struck by the high common factor of agreement that there is on the broad lines of defence policy. From that, I think, the Services and the country as a whole can take comfort.
  4.52 p.m.
  Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: Listening to the speech of the Secretary of State for War, I agreed with him on one simple point, that the biggest issue, the issue of nuclear strategy, was not one which divided the two Front Benches. I think that he was a little unfair to his own back benches when he implied that all the divisions were on this side.
  I listened with great interest to the speech of the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch), to the speech of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) and to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), and I thought that all three speeches, though they differed in many particulars, carried with them a very great and serious weight of criticism by back benchers of the Government's nuclear strategy. Because I know that many hon. Members wish to take part in the debate today, I shall confine myself solely to this issue of nuclear strategy, and I shall begin by addressing myself to the Opposition Amendment.
  When my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) decided, quite rightly, no doubt, to castigate those of us who in any way disagree with him, he must have expected some reply. I should like to put two thoughts to him. I listened very carefully to all his proposals for improving our forces. He put forward, I think, four big things that he thought we ought to do. All of them seemed to me to be extremely

  1059
  expensive and, therefore, somewhat incompatible with an Amendment which regrets the size of the defence budget.
  Frankly, I should have thought that there was overwhelming evidence that we could not, as a country, possibly substantially reduce the arms budget unless we were prepared substantially to reduce either the quality and size of our conventional forces or the quality and size of our nuclear forces.
  The notion that we can conceivably go ahead and have better nuclear forces and better conventional forces and reckon to have a smaller bill seems to be quite unrealistic. We must face the fact that if, as I do, we want to have adequate forces in Germany, then we must either pay something approaching £2,000 million, or we must substantially cut something else. As others before me have said, there is nothing else to cut; there is only the possibility of looking at our "great deterrent" and reassessing the value of it to us as a nation and as a member of the Western Alliance.
  I criticise our nuclear strategy while making it quite clear that I am not a pacifist and that I recognise the need for a Western deterrent. Of course, so long as we do not have world disarmament, there has to be a Western deterrent, partly nuclear, partly conventional. We are discussing two things: first, the rôle of Britain and whether or not we should contribute to the nuclear deterrent; and, secondly, the relationship between the nuclear and conventional elements in the deterrent. What I mean by nuclear strategy is the decision to substitute nuclear power for conventional forces or, rather, shall I say, to cut our conventional forces in fact while assuring ourselves verbally that we can substitute for them nuclear power.
  The adoption of this new Sandys strategy was made perfectly clear in 1957. I remember speaking in the debate when we discussed it then. I will not quote the present Minister of Aviation, but I will quote what was said by the present Prime Minister, who summed up the debate with, I thought, great clarity and put the matter absolutely fairly to the House in his closing speech. He said:
  "There are really three vital aspects to the whole question: the size of the forces; the character of the forces, and the nature of the
  1060
  weapons. … Upon the decision about the last of the three aspects the first two must necessarily depend … if we are to accept anything like a cut of nearly half in our manpower".
  In other words, he says that, if we are to have a cut of half in our manpower, this will depend upon the nature of our weapons.
  The right hon. Gentleman went on:
  "Therefore, whether we like it or not, the decision upon the weapons—and it is a terrible decision—governs the whole issue. Without the nuclear deterrent it is obvious that a reduction of forces of this kind becomes impossible."
  A little bit later he said:
  "Short of general disarmament … the end of conscription"—
  and the reduction of our forces—
  "must depend upon the acceptance of nuclear weapons."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th April, 1957; Vol. 568, c. 2039–40.]
  That is what I opposed in 1957, and I gave reasons why I thought it was a fatal thing to do then. I believe that all the evidence since confirms, not the Government's nuclear strategy, but the criticisms of it.
  I say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West that he should remember that he is here not arguing with a couple of Members below the Gangway and one of his right hon. Friends, an ex-Minister of Defence, above the Gangway. There are very many people outside the House who have serious doubts about the effectiveness of our nuclear strategy. I read the Economist. I read the Financial Times. I read The Times and the articles of its military correspondent. I even read what General Cowley says when he is allowed to say it. It is not just we here who are saying things. There is a great and growing body of expert opinion which has grave doubts about our nuclear strategy and the rôle of an independent British deterrent.
  I indicated what was wrong then and what is wrong today with our nuclear strategy in what I said four years ago. If we make ourselves dependent either on thermonuclear weapons or on atomic tactical weapons to the degree that we cannot even fight a second-class war without relying on nuclear weapons, we make ourselves not strong, but impotent. The main criticism which is directed at the present policy is based upon the increasing impotence not only

  1061
  of Britain, but of the whole Western Alliance, through our perilous cutting of our conventional forces and the easy substitution of the nuclear threat. This never was credible; and it is now totally incredible since we have been overtaken, equalled and now surpassed, by the Eastern bloc.
  Today we have our British deterrent and, combined with it, we have forces totally inadequate to carry out even the minimum functions of the defence of Western Europe. This is the problem of our forces in Germany. No one can really say that we are fulfilling the promise we made five years ago, because we have not four divisions any more. We have not got them. We have cut down far below the agreed minimum, and the French have cut down below it too. We have done it because we are under the illusion that we have a substitute for armies, navies and air forces in the threat to annihilate the other sides nuclear attack.
  The first idea was massive retaliation. When that tailed we took to the second delusion, atomic tactical weapons. It surprised me when my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West said that he never thought that there was anything in it. I remember an argument in this House when my right hon. Friend maintained that we should use these weapons as a substitute for conventional fire power. We pointed out that the Russians would have them as well, so they would not be much of a substitute because they would cancel out each other. It did not seem to me that we should be allowed to enjoy a monopoly of tactical weapons for long, so we should be no better off by relying on them.
  Mr. Strachey: If my hon. Friend looks at my speech, he will find that I said nothing of the sort. I said that we ought to have tactical nuclear weapons because the Russians had them. That was the reason. I have never taken the view that we could have a monopoly in tactical weapons and that the Russians would be obliging enough not to have them.
  Mr. Crossman: Of course, I am willing to accept that explanation from my right hon. Friend. But, in that case, he will have to explain a great deal, because he accepted the Government view that we could cut our conventional manpower by relying on nuclear weapons. It may
  1062
  be that he meant thermonuclear weapons and not tactical. But it seems clear to me that he pursued the object along with the Government of abolishing conscription, and said that we could afford to have far fewer conventional forces if we developed nuclear forces instead. And in saying this he did not accept the objection which we advanced that, if the Russians have them as well, we should find ourselves once again at a grave disadvantage.
  Mr. George Wigg: My hon. Friend will note the change in the tense which is evident in the statement made now by my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey). Two years ago he did not say we had got to have atomic tactical weapons. He said that three battalions in Berlin would be required, at that moment, to defend themselves with atomic tactical weapons which they did not possess.
  Mr. Crossman: I was trying to keep to the central issue of the debate—I think that it is the one which we want to discuss this afternoon—the pros and cons of having to rely on nuclear strategy—the substitution of nuclear weapons for conventional forces. Whatever any of us thought four years ago the Government's view has not been borne out by the evidence of the last four years. Let us look at it first in terms of defence and let us note what was said by the right hon. Member for Flint, West and my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley. They were able to point out that, judged in terms of defence, we were far weaker today than when we started on this defence policy four years ago.
  I hesitate to say something as unpleasant as this, but I remember that a few years ago there was a little trouble in Guatemala and I remember how it was smashed. Now I see a little trouble occurring in Cuba, which is much more serious, but which no one dares to smash and I will tell the House why. It is because of a shift in the balance of power owing to the decreasing strength of the West which has recently become so apparent. Now we are relatively weaker, not as a result of our intrinsic weakness but because of the nonsensical strategy we have imposed on ourselves by our refusal to face the fact that the threat of annihilation is no substitute for

  1063
  the ability to wage war. This is the basic reason.
  I cannot believe that the numbers in the Regular forces are really sufficient to provide the minimum which we need to enable us to abolish conscription. Here again, I think that my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West was unfair, and I share the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley. We do not like conscription; we did not say that we wanted it. We said something a little more responsible. We said that it might be a good thing to cut conscription, but we could not end the call-up until we were absolutely certain that we had sufficient numbers in the Regular Forces.
  That is not the same as saying that we like conscription. We said that it was a good thing not to get rid of that legislation before we were certain that the minimum number of men was available. That is something which has been said by hon. Members opposite as well, and it is unfair to spread the "smear" that we did this because we like conscription. I thought that a serious argument and I still think so. Now we have forces well below the minimum figure necessary to carry out our engagements.
  I say definitely that the evidence shows that now we are weaker than we were at the time of Suez. Then we demontrated our weakness, and Sir Anthony Eden, in his book, openly writes of the appalling weaknesses at the time of Suez. We have no evidence that since Suez the weaknesses in our conventional forces have been remedied.
  The second great argument in favour of nuclear strategy was the economic argument. We were told that it would save money. My right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West said that nuclear weapons were incredibly cheap. We could be sure, he said, that we could have defence on the cheap by the possession of nuclear weapons or, as I would put it, annihilation on the cheap. It has not turned out to be so. It is beyond the resources of a country of the size of our country to keep in the nuclear club. Whether we want to or not we shall find in the next ten years that we shall not be able to have all these ballistic missiles. Physically, this country is not of sufficient size to keep up with
  1064
  America and Russia. Already, this view is accepted by most informed opinion outside this House.
  Anyone who feels that our prestige as a country would sink if its legislators were willing to accept what everyone outside accepted years ago, misjudges the intelligence of the people outside. People outside Britain know perfectly well that what we are doing is not done for defence reasons, but for prestige reasons, because we think our prestige is in danger. One's prestige is really in danger when one begins to worry about it, when one says, "I must keep up appearances."
  When I heard of the explosion of the French bomb in the Sahara I felt that the French achievement represented the reductio ad absurdum of our policy. Do not let us say, "We can do this, but the poor old French cannot." True, we are somewhat more powerful than France and we have somewhat greater resources, but we are not in a different class as a Power; I hope that the French explosion has shown us how we look to other people in making this pretence, for it is a pretence, that we are a nuclear Power, although we contribute less than one-tenth to the Western nuclear deterrent of what is contributed by America.
  The economic argument was that we should save money. It was the great pipe-dream of the Premier that there would be a great reduction in expenditure if we concentrated on nuclear weapons. It has not happened. We have not saved money. Defence expenditure is going up, and I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West that we are now getting less for the expenditure of more.
  Thirdly, there were the political arguments for the British H-bomb. We were told that even if our own weapon would not defend us, we might want to use it as a deterrent against the Russians when the Americans were otherwise engaged or not concerned. We should be able to threaten the Russians with our deterrent even though the Americans were disengaged at that time. We had a good chance at Suez of seeing if this argument was true. Today, however, I should have thought that no one would put over the argument advanced four years ago—[HON MEMBERS: "Who put it four years ago?"] I think that it was

  1065
  the Prime Minister, or my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) and the Leader of the Opposition. We had people telling us that the point of the deterrent was that in the event of the Americans not being vitally concerned we should be able to have an independent approach in foreign policy.
  I am glad to hear that this has been forgotten, like so many delusions which have been conveniently forgotten after people have been interested in them year after year. I am glad to see that right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench agree that there is no strategic justification for the British deterrent. That is one great advance of the 1960 defence debate. Here we have it at last—we have no strategic advantage. Anyone who suggests that we have is laughed at. Very good, But what is the advantage if it is not strategic? There is no other except the one which the Prime Minister once mentioned, namely, our influence in Washington. So we must calculate whether our influence in Washington, whatever it may be, is kept up by this nuclear phantasy.
  I should have thought that, after four years, it was becoming uncommonly clear that the Americans like allies with real merits who are not solely concerned with prestige. If I were an American, which would I prefer—the British trying to be a nuclear Power and palpably failing, or the British providing a first-rate conventional contribution to the alliance? Which would be more useful to America? Which would I respect the British more for doing—for pretending to do something, or for actually doing something? Who can deny that if we gave up the effort of trying to keep up a nuclear appearance we would have the resources to have first-rate highly mobile conventional forces which could play their part in N.A.T.O. and the United Nations?
  I now turn to the effect of our nuclear deterrent on N.A.T.O. I suggest that the effect of the British nuclear deterrent on N.A.T.O. has been one of its most serious disadvantages. It is largely owing to our British nuclear deterrent, that France has gone the way she has gone. If one studies N.A.T.O., one sees that there is a breaking up of N.A.T.O. owing to the imposition on the N.A.T.O. nations in Europe of an Anglo-American
  1066
  N.A.T.O. nuclear strategy, Hon. Members are terribly upset, legitimately, about the setting up of the four-minute warning system in Yorkshire, because they feel it is part of a purely American defence system which is no good to us.
  If one does not like this radar station sited solely for the sake of American protection, one should realise what it would be like to live in Hanover or Hamburg, living under on Anglo-American nuclear strategy which will devastate them in the first minute of a war. The Germans feel as resentful as we feel. Nuclear strategy disunites N.A.T.O. and tears us apart until, legitimately, we come to the conclusion that all of us or none of us should have nuclear weapons.
  Mr. Frederick Mulley: When my hon. Friend says that he is against nuclear weapons, will he make it clear whether he is talking about the British contribution to N.A.T.O., or N.A.T.O. as a whole?
  Mr. Crossman: I am talking about strategy which makes us dependent on nuclear weapons and incapable of defending ourselves with conventional forces. It is that which is undermining the Western Alliance. I am arguing that if we relied on conventional forces in the defence of Europe our unity would not be undermined because we would not mistrust each other.
  N.A.T.O. should also make up its mind on the central issue of who gives the orders. What is the good of piling up these weapons in Europe and having no one to give the order to fire them? We are told that General Norstad is empowered to fire them off, but we think it intolerable that an American general, responsible to the President of the United States, should be able to shoot us to pieces. We insist that each of us must have a veto on the general, so that in four minutes 14 vetoes will be discussed. How completely ridiculous. Yet if we do not have a veto, how can we achieve a command which will give 14 nations control over a weapon of this kind? It cannot be done without a supranational Government.
  This is why I have the gravest doubts whether a nuclear strategy is the right strategy for N.A.T.O. Let the Americans have the deterrent in reserve behind, but we should concentrate in

  1067
  Europe on building up conventional forces. I realise that this is not something which can be done overnight. What we are discussing is the trend of strategy; something which should be done over a period of five years. As the "Sandys" strategy has taken four years to develop, so we should have five years to develop away from it. We say to the Government, "Look where the logic of your strategy is taking you. Stop before it is too late and switch from a nuclear priority to a conventional priority".
  I hope that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition will make a more constructive speech than that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West. I hope that he will say that he also sees the danger of this nuclear strategy. We shall find it very difficult to vote for an Amendment in which the Government nuclear strategy is not censured, but only the confusions and evasions of that strategy. The overwhelming evidence all over the world today shows that it is time that we repudiated this strategy, not dramatically but over a period. We must shift the balance of British defence policy and turn it in a different direction.
  5.16 p.m.
  Mr. Julian Critchley: It is an alarming experience to have to make a maiden speech, but I am happy and slightly reassured to follow the speech of the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman). While at Oxford, I heard him make the same speech on very many subjects at least four times, and every time that he spoke in the Union most speakers in the weeks afterwards used the same mannerisms and almost the same arguments. It is rather like old times to follow the hon. Member's speech.
  I think the most reasonable estimation of this White Paper is to try to relate it with the problems which at present face N.A.T.O. For the rest of its nine years, N.A.T.O. will be faced with three specific threats from the Soviet Union—first, the extra-European threat; secondly, it will have the function of trying to prevent and, if necessary, to wage a limited war; and, thirdly, there is the function of N.A.T.O. to maintain and to hold a nuclear strategic balance of power.
  1068
  Briefly, I should like to analyse these three functions and to relate them to this White Paper. The extra-European threat is one where either Russia or China may exploit situations for which perhaps they may not be, in the first place, immediately responsible—to do it second-hand—situations such as those which occurred at Laos and Algeria and that which is likely to arise in Iraq. This extra-European problem is not solely a military one. It is probably at root an economic problem which demands of the Government a liberal view and the investment of a large part of our surpluses in aid to under-developed countries.
  This does not mean that military force has no part to play in this instance. A brigade or a small group of seasoned troops which could be landed within thirty-six hours of a request and followed up at short notice by a sea-borne invasion would be worth sixty brigade groups a month later. It is important to N.A.T.O. that high priority should be given to a mobile reserve, responsibility for which must rest with those nations inside N.A.T.O. who have far-flung responsibilities, such as the United States, France and ourselves. It would be in the interests of N.A.T.O. to spend more money on the United Nations Emergency Force.
  The second function of N.A.T.O. in the next nine years concerns the threat of limited war. At present, N.A.T.O. is in an extremely weak position as against the power of the Soviet Union. We are outnumbered on the land front between the North Sea and the Alps by seven divisions to one. The Russian Army, which, we must remember, is not an occupational army in East Germany but an operational force, is highly and superbly equipped with weapons which have been redesigned and manufactured since the war, while the equipment of 60 per cent. of our divisions in Europe is still of the Second World War standard.
  As for N.A.T.O., there has been an alteration, as we know, in the philosophy that lies behind the concept of the "shield". Whereas before the West was prepared to shelter behind the nuclear United States power and, therefore, to be happy with a thin skin of divisions across the centre of Europe which would act as an alarm bell, this

  1069
  concept has now changed. It is now fashionable to suggest that we should have at least thirty divisions in Europe to hold the Russians if they made a conventional attack, and hold them long enough for the West to confer and for the Soviet Union perhaps to have serious second thoughts on the desirability of starting or of stopping the action they had already started.
  It is a great pity that the Government have removed from Europe that one division, and I would put high priority on increasing the seven brigade groups, or three divisions, that are in Europe at present, to the four divisions which were behind the spirit of the Western Union agreements. I think that N.A.T.O. should have a reserve in Europe, over and above the thirty divisions, that would be there in order to try to stop a Russian attempt to humiliate N.A.T.O., which might happen by the sudden seizure of places like Schleswig-Holstein and the Skagerrak and thus put before the West a fait accompli.
  The third important fact before N.A.T.O. is, of course, the nuclear equation. This is the function of the United States and its Strategic Air Command. How stale is this statemate we hear about? It is getting staler every day. This debate, both yesterday and today, is urgent and important, but in my opinion it is overshadowed by the debate going on in Washington at present between the Eisenhower administration arid the missile lobby, and for the Eisenhower administration to acknowledge that the Soviet Union have a three-year lead in missiles and at the same time still to speak of a stalemate seems to me illogical and a contradiction in terms. The Americans must face the problem of seeing that at least 30 per cent. of the 1,700 strategic planes of the Strategic Air Command, the B52s and the B47s, should be airborne night and day in the short-term in order that the nuclear submarines can then be brought into operation, and the solid fuel missiles that will follow.
  This argument seems to lead towards setting up a missile system of our own in Europe under the control of N.A.T.O. This would have at least one dramatic advantage. The more rockets we have at the moment and for the next year or two, even if they are soft-based, spread
  1070
  across Europe, the chance of there being a knock-out attack is enormously lessened. The advantage at the moment is so much with the Power that determines the first strike or surprise attack that we must do everything to make certain that that tremendous advantage is militated against.
  The White Paper is facing up to most of the realities. It speaks of the need for flexibility and mobility. It announces the spending of more rather than of less money. It now lumps all our armed forces together as the deterrent—and not just our V-bombers. It is not yet prepared to reinforce the Army of the Rhine and, incidentally, our influence in Europe. It seems to hint at the end of Blue Streak, and I hope that that is the case. We should replace the V-bombers with a solid fuelled rocket and, when we get the nuclear submarine, fire it from the submarine.
  It will be four years before the nuclear submarine is ready as a concept of our own and eighteen months before we can get hold of a solid fuel rocket from America or make it ourselves. It might not be unreasonable, therefore, to suggest that instead of scrapping "Vanguard" we make it into a missile-carrying ship, in the same way as America has under construction a heavy cruiser which carries sixteen solid fuel missiles with a range of 1,500 miles. It is obvious that the missile-carrying—nuclear or conventional—submarine is the future weapon for the West. It would be unseen, wide-ranging and formidable.
  The Minister of Defence said yesterday that he had received a postcard from the United States which he quoted. If I may, I will quote it again. It said:
  "Move deterrents out to sea
  Where the real estate is free
  And where they are far away from me."
  —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th February, 1960; Vol. 618, c. 859.]
  Copies of that postcard should be in the pocket of every one of us this afternoon.
  5.25 p.m.
  Mr. E. Shinwell: If I am correct in the assumption that the hon. Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Critchley) has addressed the House for the first time, then I offer my cordial

  1071
  congratulations, with which I am sure the House will fully agree. It seemed to me that the hon. Member's speech was of a thoughtful and constructive character. If the hon. Member continues to make speeches of that nature, he will always find a ready response to any observations which he cares to make.
  The Minister of Defence began and ended his speech yesterday on what appeared to me to be an emotional appeal on the subject of disarmament. That appeal did him great credit. I can assure him that his utterances evoked a ready echo on these benches if indeed not in all quarters of the House. It seems to me that much of what has transpired in the course of the debate is unrealistic. Facing the facts as they present themselves to us, surely what the Minister of Defence should do as a member of the Cabinet, possessing considerable influence because he is a member, is to use every available opportunity to impart a sense of urgency on the subject of disarmament.
  I recall how the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor made that remarkable and indeed striking utterance on the subject of disarmament on the last two occasions when we debated a Defence White Paper. But now we are discussing not disarmament but the Government's policy on defence. First of all, I should like to say to hon. and right hon. Members that although suggestions have been made that I have deviated from policies and principles which I have adumbrated in the past, both as a member of the Labour Government and also in Opposion, I am within the recollection of at any rate the older Members of the House and, as for new Members, it is contained in the records, that repeatedly I have pleaded with the Government not to put all their eggs into the nuclear basket.
  I have always been concerned about the possibility that we may weaken our conventional forces and strike a deadly blow at the N.A.T.O. organisation if we proceed unduly in the direction of a nuclear strategy. I should like to remind hon. Members, and in particular my colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench, that in the course of preceding debates on defence they have argued that the Government should not place an undue reliance on nuclear strategy.
  1072
  What is the difference between my colleagues and myself and a number of hon. Members who are associated with me in an Amendment which appears on the Order Paper? We have come to the conclusion that nuclear strategy is no longer practical or feasible, so we have placed on the Order Paper an Amendment which, whether hon. Members agree with it or not, has at any rate the merit of clarity. I understand, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that the Amendment will not be selected, but as I propose to base my case on items embodied in it, perhaps I might be permitted to read it. It says:
  "This House deplores a defence policy based upon a nuclear strategy which, since 1951, has involved an expenditure of over thirteen thousand million pounds, which proposes to continue such expenditure at an even greater rate, and which affords to Her Majesty's subjects no effective defence."
  I base myself on the facts. I take the first item. Undoubtedly, the Government's policy is based on a nuclear strategy. That is envisaged in Clause 12 of the Defence White Paper issued in 1958. I have not the least doubt that the Minister of Defence, the Secretary of State for War and the Government themselves continue to rely upon that declaration. There has been no change there. In that respect the Government have been consistent. In other words, Clause 12 was a complete departure from a conventional procedure to a nuclear strategy. That was the policy. I am basing by arguments on the facts. That is the first one.
  The second is that that strategy, combined with conventional forces and weapons, has involved an expenditure—and here the Government agree with me—of over £13,000 million. That is a fact. I should like to digress for a moment to say that it is not part of my case that the Government have indulged in wasteful expenditure. I have experience of Service Departments. If I may say so, I have had a longer experience, apart from that of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), than anybody in this Assembly.
  I made my first contact with a Service Department thirty-one years ago. It does not follow that one is possessed of special knowledge because of an association with a Department, but I know

  1073
  there is bound to be waste in a Service Department, as indeed there is waste in civil Departments. No Government can escape it, particularly with the shifts in policy and the changes which are inevitable from time to time—research, development and production, the frills and furbelows and the changes in design in aircraft and the like all produce inevitable risks. That is part of my case.
  Nevertheless, that has been the expenditure over a period of years. Moreover, the Government apparently propose to continue that expenditure at an even greater rate, which is what we say in this Amendment. Is that denied? Is that not implicit in the agreeable and very pleasant speech—the speech which was apparently intended to lower tension—made by the Minister of Defence yesterday afternoon? The Government intend to increase expenditure for the obvious reason that once we embark on a nuclear strategy it is essential that at the same time—because we must ride two horses; there is no escape—we must maintain conventional forces and weapons, and increased expenditure is inevitable. Finally, all this, this strategy, this expenditure and the intention to increase expenditure, provides no effective defence for Her Majesty's subjects. I base myself on those facts.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) was accurate in what he said about public opinion, but I do not take my stand on public opinion. Occasionally, it is fickle; it changes from time to time. I take my stand on a very large section of military opinion—General Cowley's declaration and the discussions now taking place at Washington, as we have just heard from the hon. Member for Rochester and Chatham, the disputes between the Pentagon and the Senate Foreign Affairs Defence Committee. Indeed, we have to face the fact which follows from what the right hon. Gentleman said yesterday when he talked about continuing the nuclear strategy policy over a period of years—which is in the recollection of hon. Members when I repeat that the right hon. Gentleman referred to the late sixties and the early seventies—that this policy is to go on throughout the years. In other words, we have to face—and I ask hon. Members to take note—over the next ten
  1074
  or twelve years, it may be fifteen years or it may be longer, a situation where on both sides there are hostile elements, aggressive elements or, if we wish to modify those terms, elements apprehensive about aggression or attack, facing each other in perpetuity. General Norstad had something to say about that. He said in plain soldier's language that that would be "a hell of a situation to face." Of course it is. Is that what we envisage over a period of years?
  Mr. Watkinson: I do not want to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, because I agree with many things he has said. He was kind enough in his opening remarks to say that I mentioned disarmament, which, of course, is the alternative to the situation he is outlining.
  Mr. Shinwell: Of course, it is the alternative. If we could promote disarmament this defence debate would be of little consequence. That is precisely why I urge the right hon. Gentleman to use his influence and power and strength in the Cabinet to impart that sense of urgency which is particulary essential at this time in view of the approaching Summit Conference.
  I must say to hon. Members, in case there is any misunderstanding on the matter, that I have not departed from my views about defence. I believe that defence is essential. The policeman at the street corner may nowadays be only five foot seven and a half inches or five foot eight inches—no taller than myself—a very unassuming person with no appearance of remarkable physique, but I feel less apprehensive when I leave the house in which I live, a very modest habitation, and see him at the street corner. Perhaps this is not logical or practical, maybe it is psychological, but it affords me a feeling of security. Therefore, I accept defence because, although it is weak in many respects and inadequate, I have a feeling that it is far better to have that than to have nothing at all. I venture the opinion that this is the conviction of a majority of people in this country.
  I am not departing from any principle I have enunciated formerly on the subject of defence. What I am concerned about is the nature of the defence. I endorse every word said by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East

  1075
  about the need for establishing priorities and getting them right. It is obvious that the reason why we abandoned the need for maintaining and increasing and strengthening conventional forces in Europe was because of our decision on nuclear strategy. What has been the consequence?
  I said when I was Minister of Defence that N.A.T.O. was deplorably weak. Then I knew all about it. Since then it is a guess, but I say what I have said over and over again, that N.A.T.O. is deplorably weak. Why is it weak? Not because there is anything inherently wrong in the organisation or in the principle upon which it is based, but because of the French defection; because we have weakened it by withdrawing some of our forces; because of the difficulty about German forces; because the Scandinavian, the Dutch, the Belgian forces and all the rest have reduced the numbers of men available for the service of N.A.T.O. That is the position, and there are many people nowadays in the military sphere who regard N.A.T.O. as of no consequence. They feel that we might as well abandon N.A.T.O. I do not feel that way. I want to retain it and to inject some substance into it. This I believe to be essential.
  Now I come to the difference between myself and some of my hon. Friends and some of my colleagues on the Front Bench in respect of the Amendment which appears on the Order Paper in the name of the official Opposition. If I ever wanted a case against that Amendment, it was presented to me on a plate by my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) this afternoon. It is no secret that I objected to the Amendment when I heard about it last week. I said I could not vote for it.
  Having heard the speech of my right hon. Friend, I am more convinced than ever that it is just "phoney". That is plain speaking. I will tell the House why it is "phoney", but before I do so I must tell my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West that he was quite flattering. He made an attack upon me. He implied that I was changing my views, that I had often expressed untenable views in the House and that there had been a change in the presentation of my case in respect of defence. The last
  1076
  man to speak about changes is my right hon. Friend. When I look back over the years, a matter of a quarter of a century and consider the political and other somersaults in which he has indulged, I really think he should not talk about anybody's inconsistency. I leave it there.
  What was my right hon. Friend arguing for? I jotted down what he said. He asked the Minister how long would the present deterrent remain effective? What is the implication of that? Does my right hon. Friend want a less effective deterrent or one more effective? It is not a question of condemning the Government because of alleged waste or of alleged inefficiency; it is a question of what we want. It is all very well to condemn the Government, and I believe the Government deserve a measure of condemnation because of the shifts and the strategems to which they have resorted in bygone years, but we are expected to say what we want.
  How are we going to replace the present inefficiency? I want to know what is meant. Do we want more, do we want less or do we wish to remain as we are? My right hon. Friend said nothing about that. He talked about Blue Streak and said it was no good. But how are we going to replace it? "Ah", he said, "let us disperse our bombers all over the world". First, that is not a practical proposition, as I gather the Minister will agree, but if it were practical it would be very expensive, when one thinks of the replacement of spare parts, stores, equipment, and so on. So it is obvious that this will not do.
  Then my right hon. Friend told the Government that we must settle what the replacements should be. What did he mean by that? What is the implication of the Amendment when it refers to the vacillations for which the Government are responsible? Vaccilation is subject to varying interpretations. One can say, "You have gone too far" or "You have not gone far enough". I want my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench to say what they want categorically, without any equivocation or ambiguity. Do they want the Government to spend more? Do they want more nuclear weapons? If so, let them say so. If they say so, we shall know

  1077
  exactly where we stand. If they say that, then I shall be all the more convinced that it is impossible to support the official Amendment.
  The question we have to consider is what is to be done about N.A.T.O. I can anticipate the argument that will be used against me. I shall be asked, do you propose to maintain the present equipment, the present bombs, the present nuclear weapons and so on? I will go so far as to say that even my pacifist friends, who would like to abolish the lot, would not be prepared to suggest that if the Government accepted even the pacifist Amendment on the Order Paper, they should abolish the whole bag of tricks overnight. As my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East said, it is something that has to be done progressively. Obviously it must be done progressively. No one expects that the Government will take the lot and dump it in the sea and be done with it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] For the simple reason that it is not a practical proposition, and everyone here knows that it is not. That is not the way to handle a situation of this kind.
  Therefore, when I am told that if these weapons are maintained they will be outmoded in the course of three or four years, I say that it is far better that they should be outmoded in the course of three or four years than that we should indulge in considerable expenditure, even reckless expenditure, in support of the nuclear strategy over those years, only to find that after a period of time these weapons become obsolete.
  Now I want to turn to the position of the party of which I am a member. [Interruption.] I say that advisedly. It so happens that I can go back longer than anyone else in this Parliamentary Labour Party, but that does not matter, for the longer one is in a party the more trouble one has. [Interruption.] The last fellow who comes in tries to teach his grandmother or grandfather to suck eggs. However, one has to put up with that sort of thing. I am going especially to take my stand on Labour Party declarations. I understand these declarations quite well. They change from time to time. It is an odd time to attack me for changing my mind when attempts are being made to revise the constitution of the Labour Party. There may be
  1078
  very good reasons for doing that, but let me not be attacked. It is like Satan reproving sin.
  Everybody knows that this discussion is being conducted in the most friendly manner. I have not said a word personally about my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West. I know he does not think much about me. He was Secretary of State for War when I was Minister of Defence. He used to get an awful hiding from the generals, and I had to stand at that Box and defend him. He has forgotten about that. If anybody challenges that, it is on the record, and I was very glad to do it. I always defend the underdog.
  Here we have a statement of party policy, and I would direct the attention of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition to this because he himself was responsible for this. At the Scarborough conference, it was stated that
  "The next Labour Government must be free, in view of facts which are not available to a party in Opposition, either to modify or reject altogether the nuclear strategy and the defence priorities which it will inherit when it comes to power."
  That was a fine declaration, and I agree with every word of it. The only trouble was that the Labour Party did not come to power. This is so difficult to handle, because if the Labour Party had come to power we would have been able to handle it more efficiently, in a more practical fashion. But what are the facts the Labour Party desire in order to convince itself that we should modify or reject altogether the nuclear strategy? Do we want to know a little more about the number of bombs we have? The Minister of Defence invited us to see the guns. Would he mind our seeing the bombs at the same time?
  Mr. Watkinson: The right hon. Gentleman knows the answer.
  Mr. Shinwell: The Minister will not have that. Are these the facts my colleagues wish to have provided for them? What difference would that make? We know that we have not got a great stockpile of bombs. We know that on Christmas Island we were engaged in research on certain explosive devices, and we also know that we have a nerve gas which will destroy any tank, including the Centurion. We know that we have

  1079
  these things. The only thing is that they are never going to be used. Thank Heaven for that.
  Therefore, I ask my colleagues, in view of that remarkable declaration, so definitive in its character: what are the facts which we need to ascertain whether we should modify or reject the nuclear strategy? Have we not got all the information we want? If not, surely it is provided in the facts themselves?
  The hon. Member for Rochester and Chatham, whose maiden speech I complimented because of its constructive character, talked about bombs and certain types of weapons. The fact is that it does not matter what type of weapon we have, however formidable it may be. At the end of the day it is not going to prove of much value, for the simple reason that what we are hoping is that the deterrent, as we call it, will prevent war. Heaven knows what is going to happen if the deterrent does not work. What then?
  All this talk about 200 Vulcan and Victor bombers, and the capacity for delivering the bomb, and the missile we propose to construct—all this means nothing at all, because we are hoping that they are never going to be used. The argument against me is that the Russians will not commit an active aggression because they are afraid. I do not believe anything of the sort. I do not believe it is the fact of having a nuclear deterrent that has prevented the Russians from making war. I do not see that the Russians require to make war; they have much of what they want without engaging in hostilities. It does seem to me, therefore, that the nuclear strategy is no longer of any real value.
  What is it then that I am asking the Government to do? It is that they should not spend any more money on devices of this kind. That is fair enough and straight enough—spend no more money until they can prove conclusively that the weapons proposed to be used are to the advantage of the people of this and other countries. Of course the Government cannot do that.
  I am not asking for the 200 bombers to be scrapped. I am not even asking that the bombs in our possession should be scrapped. I say that Blue Streak should be scrapped, and I am fortified by Members opposite, including the right
  1080
  hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch). I am also fortified by articles in newspapers—in the Evening Standard, the Daily Telegraph and other reputable periodicals—about the Defence Paper and about Blue Streak and the waste. It is no use proceeding with that. If we have money to spend, let us build up our conventional forces and inject some content into N.A.T.O.
  I want to end as I began. I applauded what the Minister of Defence said about disarmament. I make an appeal to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. I do it in all sincerity—I can assure him of that. I am all the more sincere because what I am about to say I believe so profoundly. I wish he would not spend so much time on things that really do not matter. I hope he will forgive me for saying that of the proposed revision of the party's constitution. Here is a topic—disarmament—which he should promote with zeal, with fervour, with unprecedented enthusiasm, with all his heart and soul, and rouse the country. In the next two or three years he would find himself on that side of the House, and possibly some of my colleagues here beside me will be sitting beside him. It will not affect me, for I am not a candidate. I am not even a candidate for his position, quite unlike some right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench. I hope that he takes my advice. If he does, we shall be doing something worth while.
  As I sit down, I tell the House what I propose to do. I shall vote against the Government's Motion, not because I am against defence as such, but because of the vacillation and because of the considerable changes in policy. Vast mistakes and blunders have been perpetrated. But I do not find it in my heart to vote for the Opposition Amendment, which speaks of vacillation, but which, according to the speeches of my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West, leave as wide open as it can be the question whether they want more or less, or whether they want things to remain as they are. I cannot support a policy which increases nuclear weapons and conforms to nuclear strategy.
  6.1 p.m.
  Commander J. W. Maitland: One of the fascinating aspects

  1081
  of this fascinating debate is the astonishingly curious alliances which seem to have been formed and the types of civil war which have gone on, not only on one side of the House, but across the Floor. That is a measure of the great difficulties with which the Minister of Defence has to cope.
  The speeches of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen, particularly that of the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), which fascinated the House, have made it clear that there are points in almost every speech with which everyone can agree and also points with which none of us finds anything in common. On the argument about whether we should go ahead with our nuclear programme, if the Front Bench is heaven, I am on the side of the angels. I believe my right hon. Friends are right, because I think that this is the way to preserve peace and to enable disarmament to come about.
  The hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), in an excellent speech, perhaps lost sight of one fact which he mentioned several times. However, it is easy to lose sight of the fact that we are planning and trying to do everything we can to prevent war. We are not trying to win a war, should it break out, because we all know that if a war breaks out it is lost before it starts.
  That is why we should go ahead with nuclear development. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Critchley), who made an excellent maiden speech, was wrong when he said that we had already reached stalemate. We cannot reach stalemate until we can say—and it is a terrible thing to say—that even if one side completely wiped out the other, there would still be inevitable destruction and retaliation. We have not quite reached that point.
  In all this sad story of armament development, there are moments when an opportunity for real disarmament comes about. Such a situation will arise when there is a true balance of power. That situation arose recently, and the Prime Minister, Mr. Khrushchev and the President of the United States took that opportunity and made great progress. An example is the cessation of nuclear tests by the three possessor nations. I think that may be the cessation of tests
  1082
  was at least helped forward by the possibility that the great possessor nations did not want to carry out any tests. When we get to the point of nuclear equality, we shall have a chance to go a stage further.
  I want here to pay tribute to one of the archangels—my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation. He was a great Minister of Defence because he actually did things, and a Minister cannot do things without becoming extremely unpopular. He did two things which rendered great service to the country. With one some hon. Members may not agree, and I do not know about the other. The first thing he did was to set in motion the idea that we should again have all-Regular Services. That will be enormously helpful and advantageous to the Services themselves, for it will restore their prestige and put them back in the affections of the public, affections which, in circumstances where men are forced to go into the Services, are inevitably lost.
  The second thing he did was to get the Services some way back to Parliamentary control. After a great war, it is inevitable that the Services should get away from Parliamentary control—certainly they do not like going back to it. It should not be forgotten what the right hon. Gentleman did in that direction. To technologists, war is a fascinating business. It is terrifyingly fascinating; It is the most fascinating game in the world. It is so easy to get so interested in thinking about strategy and how to win a war that one forgets the vital importance of preventing a war happening—which is the politicians' duty.
  Much has been said which seemed to me to denigrate our own nuclear effort. The Leader of the Liberal Party, the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), and the hon. Member for Coventry, East and others, referred to our own nuclear strength as if it hardly existed. The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland spoke of trying to maintain one little nuclear deterrent and, all through his speech, there was a diminution of our effort.
  One of our most tiresome national conceits is to imagine ourselves masters of understatement. That cuts no ice with Continental politicians. Continental

  1083
  politicians are perfectly justified in considering that this country may well have been directly or indirectly largely responsible for the outbreak of two world wars. They can argue that if Hitler or the Kaiser had known that we really intended to fight and if they had really understood our great war potential, humanity might have been spared considerable suffering.
  Now that we have pinned our faith to the nuclear deterrent—whatever criticism there may be, and I think that an alternative Government would do the same—it seems a great pity to play it down. When dealing with nuclear matters, it is easy to confuse "enough" with "superfluity." The trouble is that none of us knows what "enough" is. Our V-bomber force today is probably the most effective vehicle in the world for carrying megaton bombs. The right hon. Member for Easington said that we had a small supply of these bombs—he may know more about this than I do—but I believe that there are sufficient to destroy, or paralyse, without the assistance of any other nation, any country on which we used them.
  Those are horrible thoughts, but if we are trying to use the deterrent it is no good hiding it under a sort of bushel of security. We should make these matters plainer. We should take a leaf out of the American book. The Americans give accurate details about the effects and abilities of their great and terrible nuclear weapons.
  Until we have achieved what I referred to as a nuclear stalemate, which means that both sides know that retaliation would be inevitable and immediate, we must go on and play our part in N.A.T.O. and do all in our power to encourage the self-confidence and mutual trust which is so sadly lacking at the present time.
  I was in Paris when General de Gaulle made his famous statement that the time for integration had passed. That was an honest expression of what many French and other politicians had come to think. Nevertheless, I am sure that the policy of integration and interdependence is the correct one, but if we believe in it and preach it, we must act on it. The opportunity to do so is at our elbow at the moment.
  1084
  Last December, at the Western European Union Assembly, the Assembly passed a recommendation to the Council to create a joint European strategic nuclear force. There was a lot of cross-voting about that, but I supported the resolution. I see that in Mr. Alastair Buchan's interesting book he develops the idea of a N.A.T.O. strategic nuclear force, and there is also an interesting article on it in the Economist this week on the same subject.
  In all those plans there is one point of similarity, namely, that the initial force will have to be provided, at least in part, by the R.A.F. Bomber Command. That is the challenge to us, whether we mean what we say when we talk about integration. Do we mean it or do we not?
  I supported that proposal in the Assembly. It is a practical one, but it can only work in and the offer can only be made to a Europe with far more clearly defined political objectives and a greater sense of unity.
  The lesson to be learned from all this is that one cannot divorce the common defence advantage from the common economic advantage. Both must be related to something at least approaching common political objectives. In times of great fear one can divorce them. One can do these things under a great threat, but one cannot do it in peacetime, even during the uneasy peace in which we are living.
  I appeal to the Government to regard the solution of the Free Trade Area dilemma and the common defence dilemma as linked. One cannot be solved without the other. In vulgar terms, my right hon. Friend must impress on the Government that they can get these things only if they make a package deal on the lot.
  In conclusion, I want to deal with another matter in which integration and interdependence are involved. We talk about interdependence and integration, but we do not apply it to our forces in this country. For a long time I have believed that we ought to establish a properly integrated mobile reserve of all three Services. I want an immediate reserve which can deal with small outbreaks of lawlessness, not only in the Commonwealth, but which can be used by the United Nations to join up with

  1085
  other forces and deal with outbreaks elsewhere.
  We now have a Commando carrier and we have been promised another one. We are told that we are improving—but it does not seem to be very fast—our capabilities for moving troops quickly by air. But there is no sign of a real inter-Service integrated reserve, living and training together, with landing craft, transports and store vessels working together. Such a force need not be large. There would be economies once such a force was established.
  If other nations followed suit, we would go a long way towards putting teeth into U.N.O. and providing a force that would be immediately available to deal with small outbreaks. It is in such cases that one wants to use conventional weapons. I do not believe that they can replace nuclear weapons when one is talking about a direct war with another great Power, but we must improve the efficiency, and perhaps the numbers, of our conventional weapons to deal with these outbreaks which we all know will probably be our greatest problem in the future.
  I realise that even if what I am saying is a good idea it is not practicable because of the ridiculous system of having three Service Estimates. If that is so, why not change the financial system? Why not have a Defence Estimate, which I have always thought would be the only way to obtain real integration? I do not mean wearing the same uniform, and not having separate identities, but I want efficient integration between the three Services.
  We shall get to this point in the end. We shall muddle along towards it somehow, but that business of muddling along is another of those sentimental ideas which we rather admire in our heart of hearts but which it is about time we dropped. Here is something we really could do in the middle of all these imponderables and differences of opinion which have been expressed. Here is something practical that we could do at once. Why not do it?
  6.19 p.m.
  Mr. K. Zilliacus: The hon. and gallant Member for Horn-castle (Commander Maitland) covered a
  1086
  great deal of ground, and made many interesting points. I shall resist the temptation to comment on them because I want to attack the fundamentals of the Government's defence policy, and to some extent the policy expressed in the official Opposition Amendment. I speak as one of the six sponsors of the unofficial Labour Party Amendment, and, like the other hon. Members who have put their names to that Amendment. I shall vote against the Government policy, but I shall not vote on the official Opposition Amendment.
  The two Amendments have a good deal in common. They both say that we are spending a vast deal of money without any effective defence. I also agree that there is weakness and vacillation in the Government's nuclear strategy. But I do not agree that it is possible to produce a nuclear strategy which is clear-headed and consistent and which provides an effective defence. To my mind "there ain't no such thing." It is like trying to square the circle, or invent a perpetual motion machine. The thing is an impossibility. I therefore support the unofficial Opposition Amendment, which renounces a nuclear strategy.
  The Amendment represents a coalition between the Centre and Left of the Labour Party, and although that combination may as yet be in a minority in the Parliamentary Labour Party I am convinced that it is already in a majority among party members in the country. That fact will become more clear at the next annual conference. I do not envy my right hon. Friends the task of appearing as the last of the Mohicans on nuclear strategy of the Labour Party, because I do not think that it will go down very well, or be easy to defend. I have not been convinced by the speeches of my right hon. Friends that they possess the secret of a nuclear strategy, exempt from vacillation and confusion, and providing effective defence at less cost. I do not think that any fair-minded person could contend that any such case has been substantiated by their interventions to date.
  The basic reason why I object to a nuclear strategy is that I believe that in nuclear weapons man's destructive power has outrun his capacity to survive and, therefore, that to use nuclear weapons

  1087
  today is the worst possible evil in any conceivable circumstances. There is no defence against them. Our people have woken up to that fact since the four minute warning system at the Fylingdales station was announced. I see that the Star ran a competition asking what people would do with the four minutes. Most seemed to favour prayer, but I dare say one or two of my right hon. Friends would use those four minutes to revise Clause 4 of the Labour Party constitution. The Home Secretary will have to spend his four minutes evacuating 12 million people—he will have to work fast.
  Believe it or not, that is still the official policy of the Government. On 21st November, 1957, I asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the announcement that there would be only five minutes' warning of an atomic attack, he would state how he would carry out the announced policy of the Government to evacuate 40 to 45 per cent. of the population of the highly industrialised areas, amounting to about 12 million people. The Home Secretary said that he thought there would be longer advance notice than I realised, and that in any case the Government were having discussions with local authority associations, and as soon as they had finished their discussions on evacuation policy he would make a report to the House.
  That was over two and a quarter years ago. Since then my hon. Friends and I have frequently but vainly pressed the Home Secretary to report the progress of those discussions. So far as I know, they are still going on.
  In the meantime, it became clear from the 1957 Defence White Paper onward, that the Government had given up the idea of active civil defence, that is, any attempt to defend the population against nuclear attack. They said, quite bluntly and frankly, that the thing was impossible, and so they would not attempt to do it. Instead, they would concentrate on defending the missile and bomber bases, although they admitted that by stationing those bases here they would attract nuclear attack.
  They went further than that. In the 1958 Defence White Paper the Government pinned themselves firmly down to resorting to nuclear weapons first, in
  1088
  case of an undefined major attack, with conventional arms, upon an Ally, and in the ensuing debate they stressed heavily that either we were prepared to do that or it was no use having nuclear weapons at all.
  I then returned to the attack, and on 26th February last year I asked the Home Secretary, in view of the fact that there was no active civil defence, and that the Government would resort to nuclear weapons first in pursuance of their nuclear deterrent strategy, what measures they proposed to take to dispose of the dead resulting from the nuclear counter-attack. I got a reply which, as usual, was what is known in this country as "waffle" and in the United States as "gobbledygook". I therefore asked a supplementary question, in which I said:
  "… is it not the fact that the Government's policy is to resort to nuclear weapons against a major attack on any allied country by conventional arms without any attempt to defend the civil population against the consequences of that policy? Will not the Government make clear the measures they propose to take to burn, bury or otherwise dispose of the tens of millions whom they propose to immolate on the altar of their nuclear deterrent strategy?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th February, 1959; Vol. 600, c. 1272.]
  The Home Secretary replied with some heat that he could not accept the interpretation of the Government's policy contained in my supplementary question.
  If that interpretation is incorrect I very much hope that whoever replies to the debate will be good enough to answer three questions. First, do the Government stick to paragraph 12 of the 1958 Defence White Paper? Do they still understand a nuclear deterrent strategy to mean that we must be prepared to use nuclear weapons first in case of a major assault with conventional arms on an allied country? The whole country, and certainly hon. Members on both sides of the House, will be relieved to have a clear and straightforward reply on that issue. I hope that we shall get one, although I rather doubt it.
  Secondly, is it still the Government's policy not to attempt any active civil defence, but to say that since it is impossible to defend the civil population against nuclear attack they will confine themselves to trying to defend the bomber and missile bases? I believe

  1089
  that that still is their policy, but I should like to have a clear answer on that point.
  Thirdly, what is the Government's passive civil defence policy? Has the Home Secretary achieved an agreement with the local authority associations about his evacuation policy? If so, will he tell us what that policy is, and how it relates to the four-minute warning of a rocket attack?
  The mentality of the Government in this business baffles me. The present Defence Minister, when he was Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation, made a statement so fantastic that on 19th November, 1957, I asked the Prime Minister:
  "whether the speech made at Sunningdale last July by the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation to the effect that it was essential to resume the life of the country as quickly and smoothly as possible after a hydrogen bomb attack represents the policy of the Government."
  The Prime Minister replied:
  "Yes, Sir."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th November, 1957; Vol. 578, c. 205.]
  Either he believes that that reply makes sense—in which case, without being irreverent, I would say that his head needs examining, or he does not believe it, and says it for the record and to appease public opinion—in which case his morals need taking to the cleaners.
  Either way it is an intolerable situation. The Government's deterrent strategy means that they are prepared to plunge the population of this country into annihilation at short notice or with no notice whatever. They make no attempt at any policy for preserving the lives of the people. At the same time, in order to keep the people happy about this suicidal nuclear deterrent strategy, the Government go in for what the defence correspondent of The Times last year called a token civil defence policy. That is to keep the people happy with a lot of fun and games. I think that represents the acme of cynical frivolity and irresponsibility. I think it is quite wicked.
  The whole of this defence debate has been appalling in its unreality. As I listened to the Minister of Defence making his speech it seemed to me that the right hon. Gentleman was mouthing clichès, platitudes and exploded fallacies with all the aplomb and assurance of a bishop uttering the eternal verities to
  1090
  his congregation. One exploded fallacy I find most difficult to endure is the crazy pretence that we shall prevent war by preparing for war—to deter war is the new phrase. We hear a lot about the great deterrent which will preserve the peace.
  A perfectly adequate comment on this nonsense was contained in the speech made by Sir Anthony Eden in this House on 17th November, 1954, when he was the Foreign Secretary. That was at an earlier stage in this policy. The debate was on the subject of the inclusion in N.A.T.O. and the rearming of Germany. This is what Sir Anthony Eden said on that occasion:
  "It seems to me that we are here engaged upon what has been for many of us, certainly for my generation in the House, a continuing task virtually all our lives. It is an effort to build an effective deterrent in Europe to any aggression. That was attempted before the 1914 war by the Entente, an act of statesmanship which, however, failed to prevent the First World War, … Again, after the First World War, … by what I suppose it would be right to describe as a revival of the Anglo-French alliance,"
  by a Freudian slip he said "Anglo-German alliance" and had to be corrected—
  "… we tried again to create a deterrent and once again we failed. This is yet another attempt to bring about the same result …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th November, 1954; Vol. 533, c. 397.]
  It will fail again. But whereas the deterrent on which we relied before the First World War was the dreadnought and the deterrent on which we relied before the Second World War was the bombing plane, today the deterrent, reliance upon which will land us in a third world war, is the hydrogen bomb. While we could survive the failure of the first two deterrent policies, there will not be many people left around to realise that they were wrong when the present deterrent policy brings about the inevitable result for the third time. Preparing for war is not the way to prevent war. It is a way to make war inevitable sooner or later, even when no one wants a war.
  This deterrent policy is part of the policy of the balance of power, the policy of assuming that the vital interests of the other fellow are incompatible with your own, that he intends to try to impose his will on you by force and you intend to do the same thing to him.

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  What we mean by "defence" is backing our own rights and interests by force and imposing our will on the other chap—"negotiation from strength" is what it used to be called. "Aggression" is when the other fellow tries to do the same thing to you. That is the classic ideology underlying every arms race. It underlay the last two. Every dispute becomes a diplomatic crisis, every diplomatic crisis becomes a threat to peace, and sooner or later there is a fatal incident. Sooner or later there is too much bluff and counter-bluff, someone's bluff is called too late for him to withdraw, and we are plunged into war.
  That has been said by the Prime Minister and many other people. The right hon. Gentleman said it during his television interview with President Eisenhower on 1st September. He said that the danger was that in this situation of bluff and counter-bluff there would be a clash by mistake. The more we go on with this policy and build up a so-called deterrent which may be hair-triggered off, the easier it is for an accident to happen. Of course, an accident with nuclear weapons will be immediately fatal and irrevocable.
  Is this appalling, futile and suicidal policy really necessary? Here is another extraordinary thing about this defence policy. There seems to be a new kind of Parkinson's Law operating—a sort of inverted one—that the bigger, the more tremendous, costly and deadly the military superstructure, the more puny the political reasons justifying it and the more contemptible are those reasons in terms of logic or reality. In Russian fairy stories one often hears of a witch dwelling in a cottage standing on chickens' legs. I believe that the fortress in which the witch doctors of N.A.T.O., S.E.A.T.O., and CENTO reside is resting on pipe stems, on justifications so flimsy, so baseless and foolish that they would be unbelievable if we had not actually heard them.
  Mr. William Yates: Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House what are the legs of the Warsaw Pact?
  Mr. Zilliacus: The Warsaw Pact was a reply to N.A.T.O. and I am for winding up both. That is what the Russians have suggested more than once, if I may say so.
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  In the latest defence White Paper we are told that N.A.T.O., CENTO and S.E.A.T.O. are necessary to defend us against "the continuing military threat of Communism." On 25th February I asked the Prime Minister please to supply a little corroborative detail to support this otherwise bald and unconvincing assertion. The right hon. Gentleman refused to do so. He said that the military threat had been made amply clear by the Communist leaders themselves. That, of course, was an echo of a more elaborate pretence on the same lines brought back by Sir Anthony Eden when he was Prime Minister, in the shape of the Washington Declaration of 1st February, 1956. It had been penned by Mr. Dulles and signed by the President and himself, and this is what it said:
  "The Communist rulers have expressed in numerous documents and manifestos their purpose to extend the practice of Communism, by every possible means, until it encompasses the world. To this end they have used military and political force in the past. They continue to seek the same goals, and they have now added economic inducements to their other methods of penetration."
  On 14th February I asked the Prime Minister to give
  "dates, titles and authors of the documents and manifestos in which, according to the Declaration of Washington, Communist rulers have announced their intention to spread Communism over the whole world by military, among other, means."
  The Prime Minister replied:
  "The hon. Member must be well aware of the facts of Communist doctrine and propaganda, and I see no need on this occasion to reproduce them all in a White Paper."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 14th February, 1956; Vol. 548, c. 2169–70.]
  I am familiar with the facts of Communist doctrine and propaganda. I was intelligence officer for two years with the British Military Mission in Siberia, and for nineteen years in the League Secretariat in Geneva my job, among other things, was to follow Soviet affairs. So I know the position. It simply is not true that any Communist leader has said anything of the sort. On the contrary, what they have said—this has been corroborated by people like George F. Kennan, an authority on Russian affairs—is that in their view Communism is to be spread by the workers in each country actuated by the example of the Soviet Union.
  Communism, in the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale

  1093
  (Mr. Bevan), is a social challenge not a military threat. There was a rather remarkable article in the Sunday Times on 2nd August last by its Washington correspondent, Henry Brandon, who had just returned from a visit to the Soviet Union The article said:
  "As to the basic question whether the Soviet Union would be prepared to use her military force for ideological purposes, all foreign observers…"
  note that, "all foreign observers". In Moscow that means the diplomats and journalists stationed in Moscow, who are the men on the spot, the best source we can get—
  "agree that she will use them only to protect her national security. … Mr. Khrushchev believes that Russia's growing prosperity and power will become sufficiently contagious to promote world revolution by peaceful means."
  That is what I have been saying for a long time repeatedly in this House. I have quoted all sorts of people like George F. Kennan in support of my view. Brandon goes on to say:
  "But with the growth of Soviet power the Russians' concept of what engages their national security has also grown. In the Syrian-Lebanese crisis, for instance, Mr. Khrushchev used his military power to halt developments which he believed could have injured Russia's national interests."
  In the same way, Russia intervened in Hungary. On 19th December, 1956, I condemned that in the House on exactly the same grounds on which I later condemned our intervention, on very much the same plea, in Jordan, although there was no bloodshed as in the Russian case. This was a matter of power politics and national security, in the conditions of the cold war. The tensions of the cold war had been considerably increased by the Anglo-French attack in Suez. What I am saying now is not that Soviet foreign policy is any better or any worse than any other country's foreign policy or that its readiness to use national military power to defend its own view of vital national interests is any less reprehensible than the similar conduct of any other great Power.
  The crucial point about this is that if Soviet foreign policy were ideological and they were really thinking of imposing Communism by force of arms on other countries, there would really be no alternative to the policies of N.A.T.O. and the rest. But if it is true—as I have contended all along it is true—
  1094
  that they are thinking in terms of national interests, it is possible to make arrangements which will safeguard their national interests and our own.
  In the Middle East, for instance, the Russians have themselves proposed policies, which are very close to those proposed by the Opposition, of co-operation through the United Nations in controlling the traffic in arms, in keeping peace and giving joint economic and technical aid to Middle Eastern countries. In Europe there are the policies of disengagement, the Rapacki Plan, the Soviet proposals, the East German proposals, the German Social Democratic Party plan for Germany and the Labour Party disengagement proposals. There is a strong family resemblance between them all, and it is certain that on these lines we could work out an agreement which would involve the withdrawal of Soviet forces from Poland and Hungary.
  In other words, if what is between us is national security considerations, we could meet that by international political arrangements, by compromise and negotiation. All this hullabaloo of piling up arms is entirely irrelevant, indeed counter-relevant, because it creates fears and tensions which make negotiations increasingly difficult. Against this background let us look at what the Government mean by defence. We get nearer to the Government's meaning by studying the Defence White Papers. The 1955 Defence White Paper said:
  "The consciences of civilised nations must naturally recoil from the prospect of using nuclear weapons. Nevertheless, in the last resort, most of us must feel that determination to face the threat of physical devastation, even on the immense scale which must now be foreseen, is manifestly preferable to an attitude of subservience to militant Communism. …"
  Two questions arise from that in connection with what the Government mean by defence. In the first place, what arrangements to end the cold war and the arms race do the Government reject as constituting "subservience to militant Communism" and therefore, manifestly a fate worse than atomic death? Contrariwise, in defence of what causes are they prepared to expose the people of this country to atomic death?
  In Europe the Government have rejected any form of disengagement whatever and have stuck firmly to the policy outlined in the N.A.T.O. Foreign Minister's Report of last May, which

  1095
  insists on a united Germany being free to join N.A.T.O. The Government know, and we all know, that it is utterly impossible to get any agreement on that basis.
  Again, in the Middle East they are equally categorical about rejecting any form of co-operation through the United Nations with the Soviet Union. They stick to what remains of the Bagdad Pact, re-christened, since Bagdad dropped out, "CENTO". The Government have rejected any possibility of an agreement which would wind up, and insist on arrangements which will perpetuate, the cold war and the arms race in that part of the world. Finally, in the Far East the Government have shown they are prepared to underwrite the status quo created by the United States in Formosa, Quemoy, Matsu, Vietnam, Laos and Southern Korea, a status quo which I regard as a state of chronic United States cold aggression against the peoples of those countries and against the Chinese People's Republic.
  For what are they prepared to risk war? I have just said for what they are prepared to risk war in the Far East. When the Labour Opposition demanded that the Government should warn the United States that we would not support a war over Quemoy, the Prime Minister refused to give that warning and said it was better to be wrong with America than right and standing alone. In the Middle East we know exactly what the Government are prepared to risk war for by studying the Defence White Papers. In the 1955 White Paper it is stated that in order to discourage the
  "indirect approach of Communism through infiltration and subversion"
  we must, in parallel with our effort to develop the deterrent and prepare against a major war, strengthen by all means at our disposal, including where necessary the maintenance of adequate conventional forces, our defence against this method of attack. This means we are to use conventional forces in the Middle East against what the Government describe as the
  "… indirect approach of Communism through infiltration and subversion …"
  Of course, too much resistance to this would be met by the threat of strategic nuclear weapons. The 1956 White
  1096
  Paper made that a little clearer. It said that we want conventional weapons in the Middle East to deal with
  "subversion, whether overtly Communist or masquerading as nationalism."
  That leaves a good wide field open. The 1957 White Paper confirmed that in the execution of this policy:
  "British forces in the Middle East area would be made available. … These would include bomber squadrons based in Cyprus capable of delivering nuclear weapons."
  Now we know why the Government want bases of their own in Cyprus. They want them in pursuance of this policy of using armed force to intervene against what they describe as "Communist infiltration and subversion".
  We have seen it in action. First we had the Suez affair, which was straight aggression against the Charter and condemned as such in the United Nations. The Government are quite unrepentant about that and still consider that they were entitled to do it. Next, there was the American invasion of Lebanon at the request of the President of Lebanon, who was an American puppet and who made his request unconstitutionally, because under the constitution the Lebanese Assembly must approve any such appeal to a foreign Power, and this was not done. The American action was taken, too, in the teeth of the Report of the United Nations Commission on the spot, which said that all the stories about massive infiltration from outside were untrue.
  Next, we went into Jordan at the request of a king who at that time had two-thirds of his population against him, according to the report of The Times correspondent on the spot. This was followed on 17th July, 1958, by the Prime Minister's amazing claim in the House that there was nothing in the Charter to forbid the Government from going to the assistance, by armed intervention, of any Government which asked for such assistance on the ground that it was a victim of Communist subversion. As the Spectator pointed out at the time, this indicates that what the Government mean by defence is a policy of armed intervention on behalf of régimes so dictatorial that they cannot be removed by democratic means, so oppressive that their own peoples rise against them, and so unpopular that when the rising occurs they cannot even rely on their own

  1097
  armed forces and have to call in foreign forces to see them through. On top of that, this whole policy is contrary to the Charter, which certainly is not a licence for armed intervention in the internal affairs of other countries, but which, on the contrary, expressly forbids such intervention.
  What the Government mean by defence in Europe has a family resemblance to the other forms of defence. We are heading for another crisis over Eastern Germany. The Government stick to the policy of not recognising Eastern Germany and not recognising the Polish frontier. I see that the Americans are taking the bit between their teeth, have refused to recognise the new form of identity cards issued by the Russian authorities and have resumed high flights to Berlin in the teeth of Russian protests. All this is boiling up to the sort of crisis which we had two years ago when there was talk about being ready to start a third world war rather than give in on those points.
  If we go into the Summit Conference with a policy which makes agreement impossible—and that is the case as long as we stick to the N.A.T.O. Declaration of last May—then the failure of the Conference will be followed by a peace treaty with Eastern Germany by Russia, and that again, if the Government mean what they say, will result in our being in an atmosphere of diplomatic crisis with threats to peace and all the rest of it.
  When it comes to the more basic issue of what the Government mean by N.A.T.O. in that part of the world, we have the declaration made on 12th December, 1955, by the present Prime Minister, then Foreign Secretary. This was confirmed by the present Foreign Secretary on 4th December, 1957, as constituting Government policy. The Prime Minister claimed in 1955 that the westward march of Communism had been arrested by N.A.T.O.,
  "covered by the protecting shield of American atomic power. Now the Soviets are held in the West. … We believe that they may, with steady pressure upon them, be forced sooner or later to give ground in Eastern Germany."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th December, 1955; Vol. 547, c. 827.]
  That is an echo of the policy of rolling back Communism, and it is a muted echo of Dr. Adenauer's policy,
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  which is, frankly, to hold up any settlement over Germany until such time as he is strong enough to extort a settlement, with the support of his allies, he hopes, which will give him frontiers far better for Germany than the existing frontiers.
  The interesting point is that in the recent Foreign Affairs debate no attempt was made on the Government benches to refute the facts and arguments about the growing danger of arming a Germany with irredentist demands, and a more and more reactionary and militarist régime, with nuclear weapons. This is a repetition of the old policy of making an ally of German nationalism, militarism and irredentism against the Soviet Union, using Germany as a bulwark against Communism. If we swallowed Hitler, then why strain at Adenauer now? He is no Hitler, of course, but in his internal policies he is something like a combination of Stresemann and von Papen, and in his international policy he is a European Syngman Rhee. He is becoming a danger to peace, and he is certainly an obstacle to any political settlement. On the Foreign Secretary's principle that if we take a decision we must accept the logical and natural consequences of it, then if the German Government are capable of the kind of initiative which they have taken in Spain, I wonder what they will do after they get nuclear weapons. I think that it will be a very serious business.
  In conclusion, I propose to deal realistically with that Ark of the Cold War Covenant, N.A.T.O. In the first place, I believe that the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) was quite right when he claimed in the House, on the day that N.A.T.O. was formed, that it was logically carrying out the policy which he had outlined in Fulton in March, 1946.
  For all practical purposes, the decision to treat the Soviet Union as a potential enemy after the war was taken before the war was over. It had nothing to do with post-war Soviet policies. I do not want to weary the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "You have done."]—by giving the evidence, but I must point out that Lieut.-General Sir Leslie Groves, who was in charge of the Manhattan project manufacturing the first atomic bomb, testified in the Oppenheimer

  1099
  loyalty trial in 1954 that within a fortnight of taking over his job in September, 1942, he was quite clear in his own mind that the Power against which the atom bomb was being manufactured was not Japan but the Soviet Union, that that was the true object of the operation.
  For the first period after the war it was believed that the atomic bomb was the absolute weapon which had reduced the Soviet Union to a second-class Power and enabled the West to impose their will on her. Professor Blackett, in his book "Atomic Weapons and East-West Relations", published in 1956, gives a very clear and detailed picture of the development of that delusion, its gradual perishing and the reactions of the Russians to it.
  The reactions of the Russians were, first of all, to increase their land forces. They then went in for an atomic programme. When the Americans started on an H-bomb programme, the Russians went in for H-bombs. When the Americans built strategic bombers, the Russians built a strategic bombing force. The Russians then went over to rockets before the Americans did, and they have now achieved a considerable lead in rockets. We are far worse off than when we started this business. In addition, the Russians tightened their hold on the satellites for military and security reasons as part of that operation.
  We had some confirmation of this in Mr. Khrushchev's speech in the middle of January when he said that after the war Soviet forces had been reduced to 2,874,000 and then,
  "as a result of the formation of the aggressive bloc of N.A.T.O. and atomic bomb blackmail at a time when we did not have the bomb,"
  the Soviet Union was forced to strengthen her defences and by 1955 had increased her forces to 5,763,000.
  That is how it looked from Moscow. As the Observer defence correspondent pointed out on 7th December, 1958:
  "In the past, the deterrent strategy of the West has been absolute because it represented a one-sided mortal threat to the homeland of the U.S.S.R."
  From our point of view that looked like defence. But from the other fellow's point of view it looked like something a little different.
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  N.A.T.O. was born of the policy of negotiation from strength. When N.A.T.O. was introduced into the House I rejected it. I spoke against it, and I voted against it. I said of N.A.T.O.:
  "It scraps the Charter and returns to the balance of power. It commits us to a new arms race".
  That is exactly what happened. I rejected the claim that this policy was necessary because there was danger of an attack from the Soviet Union. I said:
  "The argument from necessity depends for its validity upon the view that every possible means of reaching agreement by the methods prescribed in the Charter has been exhausted, that the Soviet Union is solely to blame for the deadlocks, and, thirdly, that the Soviet Union has aggressive intentions. I cannot accept any one of these contentions. I do not believe that Soviet statesmanship has been any better inspired than our own; indeed, sometimes, it has been less well inspired. But I do not doubt the Soviet will to peace any more than I doubt that of the United States or of this country"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th May, 1949; Vol. 414, cc. 2079 and 2081.]
  I stand by that declaration. I think that time has brought out its truth.
  The practical conclusion I draw is this. I believe that we are coming to the end of the policy of building up nuclear strength and nuclear deterrents. The means are so terrible that they are swallowing up any possible ends they could achieve, and there is greater and greater scepticism about whether all the tremendous effort and fearful danger represent any rational need whatsoever.
  The time has come when we must say that we shall reject the risks of hydrogen-bomb power-politics and the balance of power in our relations with the Soviet Union, and we accept the risks of basing our relations with that country on the Charter of the United Nations. We have a common interest in preserving peace and dealing co-operatively with threats of war. Through the Charter we can work out policies and arrangements to correspond to that and to underpin disarmament.
  However, the choice must be made right at the beginning. We must decide whether we want to defend this country against what I regard as the mythical danger of a deliberate attack, or whether we want to defend ourselves and the world against the real and increasing danger of an accidental clash between these hair-triggered deadly defence systems.

  1101
  If, as I think that we must, we make the latter choice, obviously anything which diminishes the danger of an accidental clash increases the strength of our defence against war. We should deter war by political East-West arrangements, and not by rival military alliances.
  That consideration arises when speaking of any control system. If the view is taken of the motives of the Soviet Union that they are fearful and suspicious, but that basically they want disarmament and peace, the same as we do, obviously an imperfect control system which will enable us to stop tests and end the weapons race is much safer than to demand perfection, which is unattainable as between sovereign States and means going on with the arms race. There can never be a completely effective control system. Any form of control can always be opposed in the name of perfectionism. Anything of the sort I have suggested is a first step in advance.
  Similarly, anything which will withdraw troops who are in danger of clashing with each other increases safety all round and is a defence measure—a deterrence of war measure. Whether it is the modest step that the Prime Minister proposed in Moscow and later dropped, whether it is the wider proposals of the Rapacki Plan or any of the others I have mentioned, these are the steps to be taken. Eventually it means that regional agreements based on the Charter will replace, swallow and wind up the rival military alliances, as an integral part of the process of disarmament and disengagement.
  The best contribution this country could make today, instead of going on being a bad, and increasingly bad, third in the nuclear weapons race, an impoverished country member of the suicide club, would be to put ourselves at the heads of the nations who stand for civilisation and sanity, who desperately want to put an end to all this nonsense. We should say that we reject the policies of fear and reject all considerations based on the statecraft of the balance of power. We should say that we will take the risks of basing our relations with one-third of the world, headed by the Soviet Union, on the principles, purposes and obligations of the Charter. That means that we must be prepared to give a lead by unilateral action.
  1102
  I want us not only to renounce nuclear strategy, but to get rid of nuclear weapons as well. We should do this not merely as a moral gesture, but as a political act, as the beginning of an independent foreign policy based on the Charter. We should make it clear that we do not fear aggression from either Russia or from the United States, and therefore we do not need American protection against the Soviet Union any more than we need Soviet protection against the United States. That is a radical policy, but I believe that it is the policy which we must follow. The sooner we do so, the greater will be our prestige, our influence and our leadership in the world.
  Brigadier Sir John Smyth: The House could hardly have heard four more different and divided opinions expressed anywhere than the ones we heard this afternoon from hon. Members opposite. The only Amendment on the Order Paper which has not had nasty words said about it is that of the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), who, up to the present, comes out in the clear. His colleague signed two Amendments so as to have the best chance of coming out right with one of them.
  I will not attempt to follow the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus), because, as he already knows, our views on defence are so very different that one can say that we have never met. There is no meeting ground on which we can argue the point. I know that the hon. Gentleman will understand that.
  Yesterday, several hon. Gentlemen said—I thought extremely wisely—that foreign affairs and defence have been gradually coming so close together that they are now almost one subject. I find it a little unreal to try to discuss one without the other. The first reason for that is improved communications, the fact that the world is getting smaller every day, the devastating power of modern weapons, and the fact that in foreign affairs we can no longer "go it alone" any more than we can in defence. We must depend on collective defence for our security.
  Whether we are discussing N.A.T.O. or the Cyprus bases or Germany or nuclear power, foreign affairs come into every one of our arguments just as much as the actual military defence factors do.

  1103
  Foreign affairs and defence today have one common object, namely, the survival of the human race. To effect that object we must see that the war of the future never starts. That is a vastly different approach to the old one which we used to adopt, when we argued about how to win a war when a war happened.
  Mr. Zilliacus: It is perfectly true that the situation is entirely new. Our job is to prevent a war ever happening, but preparing for war is the traditional way of attempting to win a war when it happens.
  Sir J. Smyth: I find the hon. Member's ideas on this subject terribly old fashioned and out of date. Listening to him, I really become a bit frightened. As I have said, our two points of view differ so much that I do not think that we can really argue them.
  We have to realise that speed is very often essential in preventing a small war becoming a big one. I can give two recent examples of operations, within the recollection of hon. Members, where speed was lacking. The first was Korea. At that time, although it was essential that forces should move into Korea at once, we were unable to find in this country even one brigade to send out there. Had it not been for the Americans the war in Korea would have been lost before it began. I do not say that that was the fault of those then in charge of our defence arrangements, but it was the result of what I would call unplanned extravagance, in our defence arrangements immediately after the war.
  We had another example of lack of speed at the time of Suez. Sir Anthony Eden announced to the House that he intended to intervene on the line of the Canal, but it took six days before the forces that were to carry out that policy could arrive in Egypt. We have learned valuable lessons from that. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence yesterday told the House that we had under construction what he called a landing ship docks, which is a fast boat to take landing craft, so to speak, inside it. He also told us about the Commando carriers. He described that as a perfect fire brigade.
  1104
  I think that that would prove to be the case, and I hope that every effort will be made to get these craft ready so that we shall not again have, as we had at Suez, this slow chugging of the landing craft across the Mediterranean. I spent a very interesting visit on board H.M.S. "Victorious" a little while ago, and I must say that she is the last word in aircraft carriers. I was immensely impressed, too, by the whole administrative side—the arrangements for feeding the crew and all those things which, perhaps, people would not notice as much as they would the operational side.
  When discussing this White Paper, as we have been doing in the last two days, we sometimes overlook the fact that it is only part of the five-year plan announced by my right hon. Friend, now Minister of Aviation, in April, 1957. The present White Paper, like those before it, fits into the pattern set by him then. We have not altered our main policy in any respect, although, of course, we need great flexibility over weapons. That is unavoidable. In the space age in which we live, weapons come and weapons go, and very often the weapon one chooses is quickly supplanted by a better one. Everyone admits that that is an expensive business, and one that it is impossible to avoid, but my right hon. Friends the Minister of Aviation and the Minister of Defence have that flexibility of mind that is so utterly essential at the present time.
  A good deal has been said about the cost of our present defence arrangements. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War talked at some length about the Labour Party's policy of expansion for defence after the Korean War started. I think that the party opposite showed very great courage in at once deciding that a big rearmament programme was essential. It will be recalled that the Labour Government launched a new programme estimated to cost £4,700 million over a period of three years, and my right hon. Friend explained how much more expensive that programme turned out to be than had been anticipated and how it had to be pruned down a great deal.

  1105
  In the 1957 announcement of the five-year plan—and I think that this is very important—we said:
  "Britain's influence in the world depends first and foremost on the health of her internal economy and the success of her export trade."
  It might at first be thought that we were not living up to those words—when one realises that the figure given in the present White Paper appears to be £115 million more than last year's figure—but my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence has explained that that is not really the correct figure and that the net increase is only £75 million.
  What is more important is that the percentage of our gross national product as represented by defence expenditure is considerably less this year than when we started the five-year programme at the end of 1956, and considerably less than it was in, for instance, 1953. It was then 10 per cent.; today it is only 7½per cent. Nevertheless, we must watch the cost of our defence budgets. Defence and weapons of defence are not things that one cart buy over the counter, pay for and know what one is getting. We could perfectly easily spend £3,000 million a year and yet not get the security for which we are looking.
  A number of speakers seem to have overlooked the fact—and I hope that the Leader of the Opposition will bear it in mind when he speaks later—that 49 per cent. of our total defence expenditure this year is on account of paying and looking after the forces. I am sure that the party opposite would not like to pay the forces less than they are getting at the moment, nor cut them down.
  When we announced the defence plan in the 1957 White Paper we insisted on two things. The first was the necessity to base our defence on the nuclear deterrent and, at the same time, to strive for comprehensive disarmament. Secondly, we reaffirmed our support for N.A.T.O. and for our other collective alliances. Further, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation then made the very courageous decision—and it was a courageous decision—to end conscription. Of course, most hon. Members wanted to end conscription and would have done so had they had the opportunity, but the fact remains that my right hon. Friend actually did it.
  1106
  The success of doing away with conscription depended on the confidence that the Government could give to our young men that we really intended to do away with conscription completely and to build up a long-service volunteer army such as the young men of today would want to join—and have joined in very satisfactory numbers. The present White Paper continues that policy of 1957 in every important principle.
  To take one item which is mentioned in the present White Paper, there is the human factor. By the end of the five-year programme we shall have reduced our manpower from 700,000 to 400,000. We shall have reduced the Army to between 172,000 and 180,000 men. They will be long service men, better trained, better paid and better equipped, much more suited to the particular problems which we wish to solve.
  There are differences of opinion sometimes about the worth of a long service volunteer compared with a conscript or a half conscript and a half volunteer. Some say it is as much as 3 to 1. Even if it is 2 to 1, I think that in establishing the Army which we have today we have a very much increased value from a smaller number of men, and I think that they will carry out the tasks which, we put before them much better than the old Army.
  Everyone agrees that the new pay increases for the Forces are generous; certainly they have been extremely well received by the Services themselves. However, I must call the attention of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence to the great gap which these increases have widened between the personnel of our new Army and the retired officers and their widows who really have miserly rates of pension in comparison with the pensions just announced for officers of our new Army.
  We should remember that the pre-1950 officers were the ones who had to "carry the can" and fight for us in two world wars, whereas the people who are receiving the vastly increased pensions, or most of them, will probably have seen no active service at all. Many of those old officers are the fathers or grandfathers of the young men we want to enlist in our new Army today. I maintain that it is a very poor advertisement that they should be in such

  1107
  financial straits. It is a great shame that a Conservative Government, whose record is so extremely good in the matter of war disability pensions, should not do for these officers and their widows what they have done for war disability pensioners. I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider this matter very seriously.
  I maintain that Britain is making an important contribution to the nuclear deterrent of the free world as a whole. It is only a contribution. To call it an independent deterrent is really a contradiction in terms. It is, perhaps, independent for us, but it fits into the general pattern of nuclear defence. We are contributing to our main object, that the war of the future shall never start.
  In all the talk about ballistic missile sites and whether there will be four minutes' warning, five minutes' warning or fifteen minutes' warning, the important thing to remember is that this is all part of the pattern of the deterrent. Of course, if war takes place we shall have been unsuccessful and the whole strategy of the deterrent will have failed. But I do not believe that that will happen. I believe that the policy of the deterrent is recognised by the Russians just as much at it is by us.
  There is, I know, a great difference of opinion in the party opposite on this subject. Some people feel—I respect their view—that we can make a gesture and give a lead so that others will follow. I remember very vividly what happened in the old League of Nations before the last war, at a time when I was not a politician but was on the receiving end. We gave up our weapons unilaterally, hoping that the rest of the world would do the same. But what was the result? War became more and more certain and, when we went over to Dunkirk and operations started our weapons were vastly inferior to the weapons of the Germans.
  I agreed with the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) when he pleaded for more dispersion and mobility for our deterrent weapons. I was rather shocked recently at what happened when a mission from this House went to America to see American defence installations. The members of that mission came back and they were
  1108
  encouraged to say where they had been, what they had done, and so forth. It was no fault of theirs; they were told that there was nothing secret about it. I think that we should, perhaps, take a leaf out of the Russians' book in this. The Russians fire a rocket at the moon. It is important from their point of view that scientists should see that the rocket hits the moon, but the Russians do not go so far as to tell other people how to do the same thing. At any rate, if they do, the Americans and ourselves have not tumbled to it yet.
  The dispersion and mobility of our deterrent weapons need improving. Obviously, if our potential enemy knows exactly where the deterrent weapons are, the effect of the deterrent itself is not so great. It always used to be said of a tank force that it exerted its greatest effect on the battle when it was out of sight over the horizon. There is much truth in that, and I feel that the same applies to our deterrent weapons.
  Several hon. Members have spoken very disparagingly about the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. The Organisation is not nearly so bad as many try to suggest. It is, of course, very difficult to integrate fifteen different nations into one force. No doubt, the Leader of the Opposition may have certain feelings on this subject in respect of his own party. It is very important that we should all keep in mind what is the real rôle of N.A.T.O. If we do not, we shall draw false conclusions about the proper composition of N.A.T.O. and its rôle.
  The Organisation is a shield. Its task is to make a break in continuity after an incident and to give a pause for thought. These were General Norstad's own words. That is the principal task of N.A.T.O. We do not envisage that the forces of N.A.T.O. will carry out large scale, continuous operations against massive Russian forces on the continent of Europe. Those who have that idea cannot have it both ways. If they think that that is the rôle of N.A.T.O., they must accept the reintroduction of conscription and the doubling of our contribution to N.A.T.O. and those of the other forces comprised within it.
  I regard our contribution of seven brigade groups as completely adequate, because the important thing is that it

  1109
  should he plain to the world that Britain and America are absolutely together in N.A.T.O. This is why disengagement is such a dangerous policy, since it might encourage the Americans to pull out altogether. It is most important that it should be evident to the whole world that we are in and part of N.A.T.O.
  In conclusion, I suggest that we must continue to strive for disarmament, for Summit conferences and for a better understanding with one another, but even if we get a certain degree of disarmament we should never be so foolish as to lower our guard. I am certain that the peace of the world and the retention of our security depends on eternal vigilance. We cannot afford to relax. I should like to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence on his first White Paper and on the complete grasp which he has obtained in a very short time of every item of his vital job
  7.31 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Mulley: The hon. and gallant Member for Norwood (Sir J. Smyth) will excuse me if I do not follow him in detail, although I shall touch on some of the points he raised.
  This is the fourth day I have sat in this House trying to deliver this speech. I wonder whether there is some analogy between trying to speak here and taking part in a walking race which is being organised from John o' Groats to Land's End. Questions about disqualification in the competition here might also arise.
  I think I should declare my peculiarity at the outset, in that I think I am the first back bench speaker from this side of the House who finds himself able to vote for the official Opposition Amendment. As the result of the Division will show, that is not because I am in a minority on this side of the House, but merely because it happens that all hon. Members who have spoken so far, except my right hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger), seem against the official Opposition view and in favour of another Amendment which has not been called.
  This has been an extraordinary defence debate, which was introduced yesterday by an extraordinary speech from the Minister of Defence, in that he did not talk about defence at all. He gave us,
  1110
  as it were, a trailer for the three detailed Services debates which are to take place later this week and next. Apart from a footnote when the right hon. Gentleman spoke about nuclear weapons, he did not follow the custom of his predecessor in dealing with strategy and the wider considerations of defence.
  The second most surprising feature about the Minister's speech was that he did not introduce the fact that we are part of an alliance in our defence arrangements until very late in his speech. He said that we must have all sorts of deterrents. He did not use the term graduated deterrents, but he implied that we must have a deterrent to meet every situation. Clearly, it never occurred to him that it is beyond us as a separate independent country to provide the whole range of these weapons.
  It is surprising that in 1960 any Minister can open a defence debate without making it clear that we cannot defend ourselves alone and that the whole discussion ought to be about what should be the proper British contribution to the collective defence of the West. All this pretends that we can have an independent defence policy. I am afraid that a number of my hon. Friends were guilty of the same error. They also spoke about nuclear strategy and this and that without making clear the distinction between a British contribution and the general Western Alliance arrangements.
  It is one thing to say that a particular weapon should not be produced by this country and quite another to say that it should not be produced within the alliance as a whole. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) said, the policy of the West is the sword on the one hand and the shield on the other. Clearly, we cannot discuss the matter of defence without also thinking of foreign policy. In many ways, a sound foreign policy is the best defence policy. The object of both must be to prevent war.
  Also, in discussing defence, we must clearly establish that in points of conflict between the military on the one hand and the political on the other the political considerations must always prevail. There is no point in considering our defence arrangements without setting

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  them against the background of our political long-term objectives, which to me are general controlled disarmament, including both nuclear and conventional weapons and, if that is not feasible at once, doing something to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons to more and more powers. In our foreign and defence policies, we should attempt to set what we are doing now against the objectives that we wish to attain. Until we can achieve agreement, clearly we cannot weaken our existing defences. In my view, one does not increase the possibility of a successful disarmament agreement by unilateral disarmament before the discussions begin. But, at the same time, while we are on the brink of such discussions, I think that we should do nothing which could be construed as provocative.
  The whole of our policy must be based on interdependence. As I see it, unless we in the West come together on a common defence and foreign policy, we shall not succeed in the Summit talks. Interdependence has become a fashionable word. I think that it was best described by the Prime Minister when he came back from America in October, 1957, after making peace with President Eisenhower after Suez. He said:
  "The time has passed when countries, however strong, can follow independent policies".
  I only wish that the right hon. Gentleman had had those words framed and placed in the room of the Minister of Defence, because clearly we cannot have efficient, economic and effective defence except in conjunction with and integrated with the general Western Alliance.
  What is more important, it is only by integration following the Adam Smith principle of the division of labour that we shall get the maximum amount of defence for the minimum expenditure of money. When in N.A.T.O. the demands are for more weapons for the Navy, the Air Force and Army, clearly only by pooling our endeavours can we get the best results. All of us as individual Members would love to spend the money that is spent on defence on schools, houses, social services and things of that sort. It is always with reluctance that we spend money on defence. That is why I cannot thank the Government for not having through N.A.T.O. integration
  1112
  and standardisation, enabled us to get better defence for the money that is being spent.
  We have also the problem of research for defence, which today is largely used also for civil or non-military purposes. We have to strike a balance on the demand which defence makes on scientific resources so that we do not take too much from the civil pool and yet allow the maximum research to go on.
  The debate has turned very largely on what is called nuclear strategy. This is a most inexact term. I do not understand what is meant by having or not having a nuclear strategy. What I prefer to criticise is nuclear doctrine, and I have been criticising the nuclear doctrine of N.A.T.O. over the last two years. What some of my hon. Friends have been saying today—some of them for the first time—I have been saying for two years. At the same time, it does not seem to me necessary to table a separate Amendment just for this reason.
  I have taken the view over the last two or three years, and certainly since the notorious paragraph 12 of the Defence White Paper of 1958, that there was undue emphasis and reliance not only in this country but in N.A.T.O. generally on the deterrent power of the nuclear weapon. Some of the difficulties arise because we do not distinguish between the military and political problems.
  From the military point of view, we must have the capacity to strike a second blow. That means, of course, that not only do we have to have means of delivery of nuclear weapons, but we need to concern ourselves with problems of disposal, mobility and the hardening of sites.
  The production of nuclear weapons is not a problem, taking the alliance as a whole. Both sides of the argument have enough nuclear weapons to blow the world up two or three times over. The military problem is to prevent a preemptive strike on the one hand and to have means of delivery of the weapons on the other. When I was in America, I was pleased to see that the Strategic Air Command was very much seized of this point. But if the enemy is to believe that we are preparing not for the first strike but for the second, it is essential

  1113
  that our missiles should be credible in the sense that they could survive a first attack.
  This is why I do not understand people who criticise the provision of the early warning devices, because without them, with an open, sitting-target missile such as we have, no one on the other side would believe that we were going to leave the missile there to be destroyed by the enemy. They would be convinced that at some time we would use it first. That is why I do not think that Blue Streak is a very good idea, and I do not think that we can afford to indulge in having independent mis-siles and independent means of delivery without working in conjunction with our N.A.T.O. allies.
  This brings me to the political problem. It seems to me that if one has an alliance then all the members of that alliance are entitled to participate in the major decisions which the alliance has to take. Yet I think that it is common ground, even between the several sides on this side of the House, that the important decision for N.A.T.O. is whether and when nuclear weapons of any kind are to be used. But the reality of the situation is that only the United States, with respect to 95 per cent. of the weapons and ourselves with respect to the remaining 5 per cent., have any say in the matter at all.
  I do not think that N.A.T.O. can become an effective political or military alliance unless there is some provision for a joint power of decision on the use of nuclear weapons in which all the allies participate. Obviously, there are organisational problems, but the con-sequences of there not being a joint power of decision is that countries will either seek to have their own national independent deterrents or will embrace a policy of neutralism, and I would say that both those policies are wrong.
  Just as in this country we have been extremely slow to draw correct political and military conclusions from the state of nuclear parity or stalemate, so they have been slow in N.A.T.O. We are now in what has been described as a balance of terror, or a nuclear stalemate, with the consequence that both sides will be reluctant to use nuclear weapons. But, of course, we must keep nuclear weapons at least within the Western
  1114
  Alliance in order that this stalemate may be maintained. If we destroy all our weapons in the Western Alliance, the benefit of the stalemate goes, but in Europe we may have to recognise that the United States may not be prepared in all circumstances to commit suicide for the sake of Europe. That is why it is essential for European countries to have participation in the vital decision which N.A.T.O. may have to take about the use of nuclear weapons.
  There are immense technical difficulties involved in working oat a joint power of decision. The fact that this may tend to delay rather than increase the speed with which they are used is not on the whole worrying me too much. But since that ideal within N.A.T.O. is difficult to attain, and because realistically we cannot see in the immediate future the United States putting any of its Strategic Air Command within the joint political control of the alliance, I ventured in December to put forward in the Assembly of Western European Union the proposal that we might make a start by having the joint power of decision on the use of strategic weapons in Europe within W.E.U. itself.
  Quite apart from the military considerations, I had the thought that it would make a great contribution towards settling the outstanding difficulties in Europe if we in this country were to make the gesture of placing our nuclear weapons within the joint political control of the seven European countries, because there is great suspicion about Britain on the Continent. While I believe that the Foreign Secretary made a good speech in Strasbourg on 21st January, I do not think that we shall now get far in Europe by speeches alone. A gesture of this sort, therefore, would have the effect of enabling continental Europe to believe that we in Britain were concerned with European defence and concerned to obtain a joint European foreign policy. Unless we get such a joint European approach, we shall not obtain the conventional and nuclear disarmament agreement that we seek, either at the Summit or anywhere else.
  The suggestion means that British V-bombers, or some of them, should be placed under the joint decision of the seven Western European Union countries. This would not involve making any extra bombs, because there was no

  1115
  suggestion that there should be joint production or sharing of bombs. This was merely the placing of V-bombers in the same situation as our forces which are already assigned on the Continent to N.A.T.O. I think that W.E.U. is particularly suited for this kind of control. The third Article of the third Protocol of the modified Brussels Treaty already charges the Ministers at W.E.U. to inspect the stockpile of weapons held by countries on the Continent of Europe and by majority rule to determine the level of atomic or hydrogen bomb stocks that they are allowed to keep.
  There is already in existence a control agency if the countries concerned will ratify the various conventions to give it teeth to permit it to work. It seems to me that this proposal would strengthen the two major objectives which I have very much at heart—a move towards general disarmament on the one hand and getting rid of nuclear anarchy on the other.
  It is important to say something about tactical nuclear weapons—so-called, because it is sometimes very difficult to distinguish between the strategic and tactical use of the same weapon. Here there is a source of conflict between the military and the political arms in the control of these weapons. Let us face the facts of the situation. The time when the military would most like to use these weapons would probably be at the beginning of a possible attack when the enemy was massing his troops before perhaps actually crossing the frontier, in the case of the nuclear or atomic weapons used by aeroplanes, probably to carry out a particular tactical task. The air commander might have to use 100 planes to do it by conventional means, whereas it could be done by one or two using tactical nuclear weapons.
  At the same time, I think it must be established that the first use in any conflict of tactical nuclear weapons must be by political and not military decision. I do not believe that the Soviet Union or her allies would be the first to use tactical nuclear weapons. I think also that one is approaching a situation with regard to tactical nuclear weapons, as with strategic weapons, where there is the possibility of parity and stalemate, so the probability of their being used is not very great.
  1116
  Since there was discussion in the House in the previous debate on defence and again in this debate about the political control of tactical nuclear weapons, I would quote the reply of the Council of Ministers of Western European Union, dated 19th May, 1959, to a resolution of mine on this subject eighteen months ago, which stated:
  "The Council have ascertained that the power to authorise the initial tactical use of nuclear weapons within the area of Europe rests with Saceur acting under political direction from the North Atlantic Council."
  As for working out the political direction, I believe that a great deal still remains to be done. I stress the serious question of political control over tactical nuclear weapons. It is difficult enough now, while they are of enormous size and still the divisional or Army weapon, but when they get smaller and are down to battalion or even company command size the problem of the political exercise of control over the military will be extremely difficult. This is particularly so as I think it is common ground between both sides of the House that if there is an incident or war it is most likely to come by accident or miscalculation. In those circumstances, the serious character of the decision to use nuclear weapons speaks for itself.
  I do not believe it is possible to start using tactical nuclear weapons and hope to restrict a war to a limited area or size. I believe that once tactical nuclear weapons are used it will be very difficult indeed to stop a whole nuclear conflagration in which we were all concerned. Since the Soviet have tactical nuclear weapons, just as they have strategic nuclear weapons, we have to have them too in order to preserve the stalemate. We cannot have a stalemate, which is what I think is developing, unless we have them as well.
  Mr. Ellis Smith: A policy of suicide.
  Mr. Mulley: If my hon. Friend will pay me the compliment of listening to the whole of my speech he may have a different view. I believe that both on strategic and tactical level we are reaching stalemate with nuclear weapons. That is why the whole emphasis now within N.A.T.O. and the Western European Union has been on the passing of resolutions for two or three years—it is

  1117
  no new discovery—for a target of thirty divisions. I think that 25 well equipped mobile divisions would be sufficient to hold the central front, given the consideration of the stalemate on tactical nuclear weapons. That is where I think the Government are failing the country in their defence policy and failing the Alliance when they put in the White Paper, as a favour to N.A.T.O., that they will keep seven brigades there for the time being.
  That is where the priority has to be given. It is no use saying that of course the present brigades are of vastly greater fire power than those in 1954 when the agreement was made. They are, but the Russian divisions against whom they are matched have much greater fire power still as compared with 1954. If we believe that the possibility exists of war or an incident by chance or miscalculation, I think that the chance of getting the pause to place the decision as to the use of nuclear weapons on the aggressor is only if we have enough ground troops in Europe, which we certainly have not now. Similarly, only in this way can we get the chance for diplomatic intervention.
  That is why I, with a very easy conscience, shall go into the Division Lobby tonight against the Government's White Paper and in favour of the Opposition's official Amendment, because the Government's view, as explained in the House and the White Paper, is that the provision of conventional troops and their participation in the alliance is complementary only in their desire to grant an independent policy for Britain.
  I believe that not only in this country but in N.A.T.O. has there been undue dependence on strategic nuclear weapons. I think that N.A.T.O. is well on the way to correcting the balance, and I can only hope that the Minister of Defence will do so in this country.
  Mr. John Hall: The hon. Gentleman suggested that there ought to be more British troops in the N.A.T.O. alliance, more than the seven brigades of troops which we said we would keep there. Will he say how many troops ought to be there and where they can be obtained from the figure of 400,000, which is the ultimate force which we shall have?
  Mr. Mulley: I shall not go into detail. The former Minister of Defence, the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head), quoted a figure of 225,000 as necessary to carry out our commitments in the Army. On the 1st April next year we shall have 230,000 in the Army. It is not a problem for the present year, but it will become a problem unless more recruits can be obtained. That would take a long time to go into, and when we discuss the Army Estimates I may have the opportunity of enlightening the hon. Member.
  8.0 p.m.
  Sir Fitzroy Maclean: I find myself in general agreement with much that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) has been saying and I, too, want to say something about interdependence and integration, both of which are at the bottom of this debate. In fact, it is extraordinary that so little has been said about them hitherto.
  The debate has revealed some strange permutations and combinations. I was delighted when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War opened his remarks with a vigorous attack on the Opposition Front Bench. He accused right hon. Gentlemen opposite of confusion and vacillation, and I thought that was completely justified. I was even more pleased when, a bit later on, he said that there was little difference between the two Front Benches. I think there is something in that, too.
  I, for my part, usually align myself on these occasions with the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg). Indeed, I found myself in agreement with a great deal of what he said yesterday in an interesting and well-informed speech. The hon. Gentleman speaks with great authority, and I am sorry that he is not present to hear my tribute to him. On one point, however, I parted company from the hon. Gentleman. On these occasions most of us vote for the same reason, the Whips, but other considerations do occasionally arise. The hon. Gentleman gave as his reason why he would not vote for the official Labour Amendment that he could detect no signs of vacillation on the part of the Government and of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence. There I part company from the hon. Gentleman. I propose to vote for

  1119
  my party's Motion because I hope and think, and pray, that I do detect some signs of vacillation on the part of my right hon. Friend—of vacillation in the right direction. I may be optimistic, but it seems to me that my right hon. Friend does show some signs of deviating a little from the policy to which his predecessor has adhered so rigidly for the last three years, in spite of accumulating evidence of its mistakenness.
  When my right hon. Friend opened the debate yesterday he expressed his gratitude to a great many people, amongst them his predecessor. I cannot feel that gratitude was very well deserved. It seems to me that his predecessor has left my right hon. Friend in a decidedly awkward predicament.
  Let us consider for a moment the defence policy that was initiated in 1957. And here, I part company from the Secretary of State for War in that I do not agree that it was a continuation of the policy of my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head). I think there was a definite break in 1957.
  The aim of the 1957 policy, which has been called "the Sandys policy", was a drastic reduction in defence costs. This was to be achieved by putting our money on what were called "streamlined nuclear forces" at the expense of our conventional forces, which, finally, was going to make possible the abolition of conscription. I think that the whole basis, the whole raison d'etre, of this policy is summed up in a phrase which occurred in the Defence White Paper of 1958, when the present Minister of Aviation said that we found ourselves "poised between total war and total peace". There could not have been a more false assumption on which to base a defence policy. I do not know about then, but today there can be few people who would quarrel with the proposition that the chances of a hot war are very small. If a hot war should come, it will probably be by mistake, but that really will not make much difference because there will be nobody much left to argue about it afterwards.
  What is much more likely, what I think is almost certain, is a long period of what some people would call peaceful co-existence and some people would call "cold war"—personally I would call it "competitive co-existence"
  1120
  between East and West, with no holds barred. That may be a gloomy prospect. Up to a point it is, but it is less gloomy than the prospect of mutual annihilation by nuclear bomb. But what we must remember, and what hon. Gentlemen opposite occasionally forget, is that this prospect is only possible so long as the West possesses the deterrent, and so long as that deterrent remains a deterrent; in other words, so long as the missile gap between East and West does not get too great.
  The big question we have to ask ourselves is, what contribution should we in this country make to the Western deterrent? I have no hesitation in saying immediately that we should make the most effective contribution possible with the means at our disposal—
  Mr. Ellis Smith: At a terrible price.
  Sir F. MacLean: At a terrible price but it is a more terrible price for the whole of humanity to be wiped out, which I am convinced is the alternative.
  Arguments have been put forward, in this debate and elsewhere, both for and against an independent deterrent. One condition if we are to have an independent deterrent is that that deterrent must be big enough to be credible. There is a minimum size beneath which it must not fall or it serves no purpose. I think there is another condition. There is a maximum cost, and if the price of the deterrent rises above that maximum then for this country it ceases to be feasible and we must abandon the idea of an independent deterrent. That point has probably not been reached in my opinion, but then I speak not as an expert and cannot know very much about it.
  I think my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence did something very useful when he tried to suppress General Cowley's lecture. What usually happens when anybody tries to suppress something is that far more attention is immediately attracted to it. General Cowley has become the Lolita of the Army Council. I think that is a good thing. It is much more important in this instance, than in the case of the other work of art I have mentioned, that what has been said or written should get the widest possible circulation. For here is a man who speaks with knowledge, who

  1121
  speaks also, one presumes, with the wholehearted support of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War. The conclusion that he arrived at is worthy of very close attention. He balanced up the case in different circumstances for an independent deterrent and the case against it, and then said this:
  "I believe that the British contribution to the peace of the world can be far more useful in other directions than in producing weapons which are only useful because of their threat and which can only be threatened in very exceptional circumstances."
  The Government, if they have not done so already—and I am voting for them on the assumption that they are doing it, which I think is really apparent to any intelligent reader of the White Paper—must undertake an agonising reappraisal of this whole question of an independent deterrent.
  The first thing they must get clear is what sort of deterrent it should be. For the moment, we are told that the answer is the V-bomber force, but I cannot believe, with things moving as fast as they are, that that will go on serving as an effective method of delivering the deterrent for very much longer. At the moment the official answer to the question of what we shall have when the V-bomber force is out of date is Blue Streak.
  Again, it is difficult for anyone who is not an expert to make any sense on this subject but I did venture to ask in our defence debate last year, after conversations with people who know a great deal more, what we on this tiny island, faced with an enemy a few minutes away, armed with extremely accurate counter-missiles, were doing with a fixed site deterrent.
  Mr. de Freitas: What about Thor?
  Sir F. Maclean: I also questioned whether the Government would go on with this development. Now we know that they are. At least this year's White Paper says so. And the figure mentioned in informed circles as the cost of developing Blue Streak is £500 million. That figure may be right or wrong. The Minister of Defence also talks about Polaris and Skylark. Possibly they may make more sense, but I wonder whether, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) said yesterday, we can really afford to think about developing more than one of these immensely
  1122
  expensive weapons; whether there is not a serious danger that, if we do, we shall spend an enormous amount of money and then be left behind in a rocket race in which we were completely outclassed from the beginning.
  I am told that the Americans are now spending £4,200 million a year on the development of the deterrent alone for all three Services. That is a figure which makes our whole defence budget—and I do not grudge my right hon. Friend the money he is getting, if only he would make better use of it—look very silly. How can we really afford to compete with that? It is not a question of keeping up with the Joneses but of keeping up with the Rockefellers.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker, a lot is said about inter-dependence. Our chief object should be to make a reality of it, a reality of the alliance. We seem already to be working in very close partnership with the Americans over tactical nuclear weapons and in many other respects, and that is quite right. It seems to me that in the long run—I do not say immediately—the only possible answer, so far as the deterrent is concerned, is that we should go in wholeheartedly with the Americans and put at their disposal not only our bases, our sites and our early warning systems and all the other things which we have already put at their disposal, but also our "know-how", and that we should equally expect them to do the same for us.
  As various hon. Members have said in the debate, no one can possibly stand alone in these things. What we must aim at is full partnership. There again, I have been encouraged by the references made by the Secretary of State for War to the British "contribution" to the deterrent. The same phrase kept cropping up in last year's defence debate. There is surely a great difference between an independent deterrent which we have developed on our own and a British contribution to a Western deterrent. These references both by the Secretary of State for War and the Minister of Defence to a British contribution make much more sense.
  There is another and, if anything, more important contribution which we can make to the defence of the West, and that is the conventional deterrent.

  1123
  The policy of 1957 concentrated streamlined nuclear forces that were practically to take the place of conventional arms. That is a highly dangerous theory. If one finds oneself in an awkward situation of any kind and one has only a nuclear weapon, one has either to use it—and even if it is a small one, but it will still lead to bigger ones later—or one has to capitulate, which is not a position any country can want to find itself in.
  I said that we were engaged in a period of cold war. In the cold war we have certain obligations in Europe—to our allies, to N.A.T.O. These are fulfilled by the troops we maintain in Germany—and in this connection I was shocked to read in the White Paper the phrase "for the time being", for that seems to me calculated to spread alarm and despondency in N.A.T.O. even more than we have spread it already. We also have worldwide commitments which one can call imperial policing commitments for which we need troops, infantry in the main, with infantry weapons. I thought the Secretary of State for War said a very significant thing in last year's Army Estimates debate. He said that manpower was the Army's first concern and he supported that admirable sentiment by a very telling quotation from the Duke of Wellington, who said the same thing equally crisply, in fact rather more crisply.
  What I do not believe is that we can really make do with 165,000 men. I share with my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton the view that in the first place that figure was simply a rather optimistic guess at the number of men that could be got by voluntary recruitment. That is not the right way to fix the size of an army. The right way to fix the size of an army is to decide how many men are needed to fulfil one's commitments and then to go about seeing how that number of men can be raised.
  That is what my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton did when he was in office. The result was a figure of 220,000, although there are those who say that it was 200,000 and there is a considerable difference between that and 165,000. It is true that the figure of 180,000, mentioned in last year's defence debate, goes some way to bridge the gap,
  1124
  but we did not hear so much about that this year. I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to say whether that is still the ceiling at which he aims.
  Mr. Soames: I assure my hon. Friend that that is so.
  Sir F. Maclean: I am delighted to hear it. That is another cause for encouragement.
  I think that the hon. Member for Dudley can support what I am about to say with facts and figures, as he can almost anything he or anybody else says to a most amazing extent with the help of his private archives which even the Army Council must envy. But one of the troubles, as my right hon. Friend knows much better than I, is that units are everywhere under establishment. As my hon. Friend the Member for Welling-borough (Mr. M. Hamilton) said in an excellent maiden speech, in Germany our troops are very largely without supporting services. Wherever one goes in Germany or Africa, units are under strength, under establishment.
  Now, anybody who has been in the Army, even for a very short time, must realise that that is the worst thing in the world for morale. In action it is even worse, but in peace time it still means too many guard duties, too few men for this and too few men for that, and so on. It is thoroughly bad for morale and therefore, incidentally, thoroughly bad for recruiting as well.
  We are told that the answer to all that is to have increased mobility. That is perfectly true. General Cowley very rightly says that emphasis should be on rapid arrival rather than on heavy armament. I hope that the Army is mobile. I was encouraged by what my right hon. Friend said today about more transport aircraft, the most important factor of all. We have heard about Commando carriers carrying one Commando, which is about one battalion, which is not very much. What is the position about landing craft? Do we have enough landing craft and enough helicopters? These are very important matters.
  However mobile troops may be, it is never the same thing rushing troops to the scene of a disturbance as it is having the troops there before the disturbance occurs. If the troops are there

  1125
  already the chances are that the disturbance will never break out. If the troops have to be brought in the chances are that it will be too late and that we will be let in for a lengthy, bloody and costly business.
  Other hon. Members have said that we ought to have more men in the Army, but they have not all said how they think that should be done. The right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey), for instance, dodged that issue. He said that conscription was not the answer. He would be a great benefactor to society if he could think of another way.
  Pay increases do not do it. They send the recruiting rate up for a time, but then it goes down again. In this country, as has been shown by statistics over the last thirty or forty years, there are people who like being Regular soldiers and who join the Army in times of full employment, unemployment, prosperity or otherwise. It is very difficult to get people other than those to join the Army. The only way which anyone has so far discovered is conscription.
  In each defence debate in the last Parliament, the Minister of Defence, sometimes under a certain amount of pressure, said, in the ultimate analysis, that if he could not get the number of troops he needed by any other means he would resort to a measure of conscription. I would be very much encouraged if my right hon. Friend would give a similar assurance. Nobody is more against conscription than I am. I do not like the idea of conscription in this country. It is not something which we have had in the past and we are much better far not having had it. It is wasteful and inefficient from a military point of view. A keen professional army is very much better, although it is quite wrong to say, as some hon. Members have said, that an all-Regular Army necessarily means a great all-round improvement in quality, because some conscripts are extremely good material.
  I hope that conscription will not be necessary and that my right hon. Friend's optimistic forecasts will be justified. However, I should like to be told that if we cannot get the men in any other way and if the numbers are necessary, we will get them by selective conscription. I
  1126
  am sure that if the reasons were explained to the country, selective conscription would be accepted. I should like this to be a bipartisan measure.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Would the hon. Gentleman say how long he would want conscripts to serve under his plan?
  Sir F. Maclean: I gave way only because the hon. Gentleman is my constituent and I have friendly feelings for him. I tried to explain that I do not want the conscripts to serve at all. It is only if the necessary number of troops cannot be recruited in any other way that I think that we should have conscription, and then only for the shortest possible time. Nobody can be more against conscription as such than I am, but in certain circumstances, if it is a question of preserving the peace, the Government should take that measure.
  The dilemma of our defence policy is how to reconcile the growing cost of maintaining an independent nuclear deterrent with the growing cost of maintaining adequate, well-equipped, mobile conventional forces. I hope that my right hon. Friend, will consider the question with an open mind, and, I hope, a flexible mind, and will, as long as he can, keep the balance between these two and when that is no longer possible will not sacrifice our conventional forces.
  Mr. Austen Albu: I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean) who, as I think the House will agree, made one of the most important contributions to the debate. He has joined the army of those in all quarters of the House who have made this debate a greater approach to reality than any defence debate that I can remember during the last few years.
  I join him in praising my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), who generally talks more sense about defence matters than most people in the House. We were interested in the outstanding speech of the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch), and perhaps also in the speech of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). I cannot offer the same congratulations to my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell),

  1127
  who seemed to contribute more mischief than light to our proceedings.
  It is interesting that even on the other side of the House there is some realisation of the limitations of our power at the present time, though I cannot say that there is a full realisation of the implications of the changes that have taken place in our political and strategic position during the last fifteen years. Until they are realised and the appropriate policy conclusions are drawn, the Service Chiefs can hardly be blamed if the policies they produce are confused, or the policies produced by the Minister to whom they offer their advice are confused.
  Service Chiefs often do not know what it is they are being asked to prepare forces for, and what strategy they are being asked to prepare for. Under these circumstances, the planning of defence policy continues under its own momentum and moves away from the realities both of national policy and national power.
  There has been fairly general agreement that the three objects of our defence policy are, first, the maintenance of the political integrity of this island, and of the countries with whom we are allied, chiefly in Europe, in the N.A.T.O. organisation. Secondly, action in support of alliances or guarantees, including those in the Central Treaty Organisation, and such guarantees as the tripartite guarantee of the boundaries of the Israeli and Arab States, and the agreement with the Ruler of Kuwait, which perhaps comes in the third category. Thirdly, action in support of civil powers in our Colonial Territories, which is a rapidly dwindling responsibility.
  It is agreed on all sides of the House, and we have heard it from the Minister of Defence, that the most important of all the functions and responsibilities which we have at the present time is the prevention of any incident developing which might lead to the great Powers becoming involved and leading to all-out global war.
  This is the purpose of the shield of N.A.T.O. as well as the mobile forces to be used in support of guarantees or where it is asked for, as in the case of Jordan. Our party opposed their use
  1128
  there although action may have been more successful than some of us anticipated.
  The question to which the House have devoted its main attention is whether we are using our limited resources to the best advantage. In particular, have we realistically faced the limits of our strategic, political and economic power? When I hear hon. and gallant Members on the other side of the House talking about our great responsibilities, I ask myself, "Do they ever think of defining what these mean, and how far they think these responsibilities can be maintained throughout the world at the present time?" I wonder whether we should not be able to carry these responsibilities better if we could clarify and narrow them.
  There have been a number of references to our continuing to pour money into bases, into Aden where it is not believed that we shall last for many years, into Cyprus which is, to say the least, politically unstable, and into Kenya from which we have already been given notice to quit by its coming rulers.
  Apart from the insecurity of such bases, I cannot understand the policy on which the decision to have them is based. They are scattered round the world as if we still had a vast Empire to defend, or as if it were still necessary to keep open the lifelines of the Empire to countries such as India, Australia or New Zealand who no longer look to us for their defence. What purpose is the garrisoning of these bases intended to fulfil? One of the usual answers is that they are there to protect the oil resources of the Middle East and the Persian Gulf, but the most general view today is that our supplies of oil are best obtained by commercial agreement. In any case, the sources of supply of oil throughout the world are growing rapidly and at present with our coal surpluses and the growth of nuclear energy, the danger of becoming short of supplies of power are very much less than they were.
  It is clear, therefore, that the main purpose of these bases is to assist in putting out fires and in preventing incidents from growing. Here again we must be careful not to try to achieve an object which is beyond our capacity. If we have these bases scattered throughout

  1129
  the world it is clear that we shall fail even in respect of those incidents where we should be able to make our proper contribution.
  I agree that instead of putting money into these bases we should use it to make our Army more mobile and efficient. To suggest, however, as some hon. Members opposite have done, that we can somehow put our whole Army afloat and that it can in some way perform the functions of the garrisons which used to be stationed throughout the world, seems to me as an amateur logistic nonsense.
  I come now to the main question raised tonight. I wonder to which of these purposes our individual possession of atomic weapons contributes. We have lost a great deal by our reliance on the nuclear deterrent in recent years. In what circumstances do we expect that we shall use those weapons during the next ten years. Is it likely that in the foreseeable future the Russians will overrun Europe or that this country will be threatened with invasion, and that the Americans will not commit suicide to defend us? I understand that that is the policy behind our personal possession of the deterrent. Is it likely that the Russians would threaten us with annihilation and force us to change a policy with which they disapprove? Suez was an example of that, but in that case the world was against us, and I believe that the Russian threat was a bluff.
  The circumstances in which we would ever use, or threaten to use, atomic weapons are so remote that their advantage is many times outweighed by their cost and the appalling danger of the spread of their possession by other countries. Even if defence by the threat of retaliation were possible within the next ten years, the cost is likely to be beyond us.
  As to joint possession, I am not sure even that the tactical use of atomic weapons by N.A.T.O. would be possible in the near future, because the difficulties of political control are so great, apart from anything else. For the time being it would be far better to remain under the umbrella of the American deterrent. The money which is being wasted on research and development in this respect would be much better spent on bringing our N.A.T.O. forces up to strength and improving the efficiency of our conventional forces.
  1130
  If I understood aright the figures given by the Secretary of State for War, it is clear that we could increase our expenditure on weapons for conventional forces by about 25 per cent. if we gave up the deterrent. I would have thought that an increase in the provision of weapons and an increase in the efficiency of our conventional forces by 25 per cent. would be well worth having.
  I presume that in the end political power can be exercised by an enemy only by physical occupation. The threat of an economic stranglehold, by cutting off our oil supplies, for example, seems to be greatly exaggerated. The best answer to the threat of physical occupation is an armed citizenry, with every man able to use weapons and trained to deal with occupying troops so as to make their lives impossible. This may sound unrealistic, but it is only an extension of the argument for conscription, and it would be more realistic than the unimaginable complexities and horrors of a nuclear war. As the choice has never been put to the British people. I do not understand how we are in a position to know which choice they would make.
  Since 1948 I have supported every measure which the House has taken in support of the defence of the West, but it seems to me that we are in very great danger in pursuing policies aiming at 100 per cent. insurance against every risk at a cost which is quite beyond us. As a result, we are failing to hit a single target set by our defence policy.
  To my pacifist friends, I would say that morality alone is not sufficient if the horrors of war are to be avoided. What is needed is hard and courageous thinking in order to develop a policy which will prevent a situation arising in which the great Powers become desperate and destroy the world.
  8.40 p.m.
  Sir Alexander Spearman: I am always interested in the speeches of the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu), and this evening I am grateful to him for his brevity. That was not unusual for him but it would be for some of his colleagues.
  The great difference in our defence preparations today and those in former times is one which is obvious to us all, that now we are not out to win a war but to prevent it. Often this country

  1131
  has won wars by itself, but we cannot prevent a war alone. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence made that clear two years ago in a defence debate when he said that no longer can any country defend itself in isolation.
  It seems to me to follow that we no longer need to aim at a complete range of weapons. The whole point is that the alliance should have such a range of weapons and we should contribute where the alliance is weakest. I am thankful that our partners have a great supply of nuclear weapons. I am not saying that their weapons are superior to those possessed by the Russians: I do not know. But they are sufficient to deter, by which I mean to make the risk to the aggressor out of all proportion to any gains he could achieve. As has so often been said in this debate, the alliance does not seem to be so strong in conventional weapons.
  I think that our first obligation must be to discharge our responsibilities throughout the Commonwealth and to our friends outside the Commonwealth who depend upon us. Our second obligation must be to prevent any direct Communist attack, about which we were so clearly warned yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch). Have we enough conventional weapons in Europe for this purpose?
  I have always thought it unlikely that the Communists would start a limited war if they knew that the defences of the West were so strong that, in order to overcome them, they would have to undertake a major mobilisation, move millions of men and take economic and military risks. Is N.A.T.O. strong enough to provide such defences? Again I doubt it. As I see it, the aggressor may well not be deterred by nuclear strength however great, because he would not expect it to be used. But an aggressor might be deterred by conventional strength, because he would expect it to be used. My right hon. Friend made clear in his speech yesterday that he agreed with this. He said that conventional defences
  "… may well be the most important for the peace of the world."—[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 29th February, 1960; Vol. 618, c. 850.]
  My anxiety is that the expense of producing missile weapons may mount
  1132
  so enormously as to weaken our other activities. On research alone the United States are spending more than twice the amount of our defence budget, and even so they have to make a great many changes in their programme. In his budget speech last month the President said that some of their production was becoming out of date while still in the development stage. He gave as examples the Regulus II and the F108 on which they were in the process of spending the vast sum of 4,000 million dollars.
  The United States and Russia can afford to switch. They are like a rich investor who obtains security not by being infallible—I have never known of that on the Stock Exchange—but by spreading his risks. That is something we cannot do. The costs are so great, as my right hon. Friend said yesterday, that we have just got to pick the best; but is that possible? I can quite understand that our experts can foresee accurately how a blueprint will develop, but can they foresee accurately enough what other developments will take place in other countries which may out-date their choice in the years of production?
  I do not suggest that we should leave the nuclear club. I do not know enough of what the consequences of that would be, but I do suggest that our subscription to it should not be so great as to diminish our other defence activities. There are those who want us to have means of delivery of the warheads entirely separately. I suppose they might say that we cannot rely upon the Americans to protect us. I cannot see how there can be any question of a private war between Russia and ourselves. It seems to me that, in this uncertain world, if anything is certain it is that if there is a war America is in it and we are too and, if we are in it, America is in it too. The Minister of Aviation spoke last year of
  "… the inescapable fact that the fate and freedom of the American people and those of her Western Allies are inseparable."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th February, 1959; Vol. 600. c. 1418.]
  It might be said that we must retain a separate means of delivery because that gives us great influence in the world. That, of course, would be much the strongest argument and one about which it would be the most difficult to be precise. If our having separate

  1133
  nuclear weapons and being in the nuclear club has helped our Prime Minister to make the great contribution to peace, then it has done a great deal, but I should have thought that his leadership in world affairs is now so well established that that factor is not so important as it was before. If it is not out of order, I should say that I would swop any number of Blue Streaks for one Macmillan.
  Mr. G. Brown: Put it the other way round.
  Sir A. Spearman: I believe our influence in the world in future will depend upon our economic strength, upon our possession of mobile forces to carry out our commitments and, above all, on our contribution to N.A.T.O. I agree very much—as occasionally I do—with the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) that once one starts running after prestige one's prestige disappears very rapidly. Today, as I see it, we are in the unhappy state of being in an equilibrium based on fear. That is no long-term solution; it is an unhappy state in which to be, but it could be much worse. It is on that we have to rely until there is a world instrument that has the will and power to deal with agression.
  I can sum up what I have tried to say in two short sentences. I believe that the nuclear contribution we could afford to make could not be decisive. I believe that the conventional contribution that we can make could be decisive in preventing war.
  8.49 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: I should first like to congratulate the three hon. Members who have made their maiden speeches in the debate. All of them spoke modestly, constructively and on the basis of experience and information which will be of value to the House. I am sure that we all look forward to hearing them again, perhaps in rather more controversial form.
  Much of the debate has, of course, been concerned with our specific criticisms of the Government in, as we allege, their failure to provide value for money. I do not propose to deal in any detail with that. Many of these criticisms will be echoed, repeated and elaborated during
  1134
  the debates on the Estimates. I propose in the time available to concentrate on what seem to me to be the major questions. In a debate on the White Paper on Defence and on our defence policy as a whole, it is as well to keep to the broad issues and not to become involved in too much detail.
  I do not think that anybody will deny that one of the central issues of the debate, perhaps the central issue, is whether we should have nuclear weapons of our own, under our own undisputed control, and, if so, to what extent and of what character. I want to emphasise that in discussing this great issue I am speaking of Great Britain and not for the moment of N.A.T.O. I thought that a number of hon. Members did not make it sufficiently clear whether they were speaking about our United Kingdom defence policy or the defence policy of N.A.T.O. as a whole. I will have something to say about N.A.T.O. a little later.
  There are those who hold that we should not have nuclear weapons of our own under our own control. In the debate there has been a rather peculiar line-up. First, we have the leader of the Liberal Party, who is against us having nuclear weapons of our own. To this extent he associated himself with my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) and a number of my other hon. Friends. Next, there is the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch). He was rather against our having nuclear weapons of our own, although at the end, as far as I could see, he came down just in favour of our retaining them. Next, there was my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), who appears to have come to the conclusion that we should not have more nuclear weapons of our own though, as far as I understood him, and I was not quite clear about this, we are to retain those we already have—or perhaps I am wrong about that.
  It would, however, be a great mistake to treat all these persons who have doubts and anxieties about our having nuclear weapons of our own as being the same in their essential viewpoints. There is a sharp distinction between those of my hon. Friends who not only wish us to renounce nuclear weapons of our own but also wish us—from their point of

  1135
  view logically—to renounce our membership of N.A.T.O. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire would go further and say that we should renounce all other arms. Such hon. Members are unilateral disarmers and pacifists; we know and understand their point of view, even if we do not agree with it.
  Let me admit at once that there are people in the country, as well as in the House, who feel very passionately about this matter, and particularly about the renunciation of nuclear weapons. I would say only this about that attitude: if, as they say, we must give up our membership of N.A.T.O., then certain consequences follow.
  One consequence of our resigning from N.A.T.O. might be the break-up of the alliance. If that is the case, it would be a consequence profoundly dangerous for the United Kingdom and the West as a whole. If, on the other hand, our withdrawal from N.A.T.O. did not involve the break-up of the alliance, I do not think that there can be very much doubt about one other consequence which would follow. Unquestionably, Germany would become the most powerful European member of the alliance. I say in all frankness to my hon. Friends that, if that were to be the case, we should lose such influence as we still possess to prevent Germany negotiating military bases in Spain, a subject to which I propose to return a little later.
  I will now answer those who say that we should not have nuclear weapons of our own, but that we should nevertheless stay in N.A.T.O. First, the issue between those people and the rest of us is not anything like as fundamental as our difference with those who want to get out of N.A.T.O. altogether. I regard the issue of whether we have nuclear weapons under our own control, providing that we remain in N.A.T.O., or whether we do not, as largely a matter of balance between economic, military and political factors. I do not take the view that this is an issue about which it would be wise permanently to dogmatise. It needs careful and cool re-examination from time to time.
  I say to the Leader of the Liberal Party and his colleagues that some of us feel a little disturbed when, although he is apparently standing for membership
  1136
  of N.A.T.O.—and, indeed, taking what I should regard as a much more technical point of view than anything else—he nevertheless, apparently avowedly, seeks to obtain the support of people who hold very different views. I hope that on some future occasion he will take the opportunity of making it clear that he does not agree with those who wish not only to renounce nuclear weapons, but to clear out of N.A.T.O. altogether.
  Mr. S. Silverman: I am sure that my right hon. Friend will realise that it frequently happens in politics that on an important fundamental issue a number of people agree in the result and are entitled to stand toegther in support of it, even though they have reached that position of support by very different roads.
  Mr. Gaitskell: I cannot agree with my hon. Friend. If I understood the Leader of the Liberal Party aright, he stands for something quite different from those, or most of those, who join the Aldermaston marches. It would be as well if the hon. Gentleman made that plain.
  What is the case for having nuclear weapons under our own control? Here I shall say something with which perhaps the Government and other hon. Members will disagree. I do not accept the view that the case for this is that it strengthens N.A.T.O. I do not believe that when we speak of our having to have nuclear weapons of our own it is because we must make a contribution to the deterrent of the West. I explain that simply by saying that, even if, while the V-bombers were ours, the bombs themselves were American bombs—nuclear weapons supplied by the United States—N.A.T.O. as such would be just as strong as it is today. There would be no difference to the alliance. No doubt it is sometimes necessary for diplomatic reasons for the Government to pretend otherwise, but the Opposition have the advantage—and, I think, privilege in this case—of occasionally saying things rather more plainly than the Government can do.
  The real case for our having our own independent nuclear weapons is fear of excessive dependence upon the United States. It springs from doubts about the

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  readiness of the United States Government and the American citizens to risk the destruction of their cities on behalf of Europe. It depends also, I think, on fear that an excessive dependence on the United States might force upon us policies with which we did not agree, because we would be in such a weak position to argue with the United States.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) suggested, if I understood him aright, that we no longer took the view that the possession of nuclear weapons was of any value in discussing matters with the Americans. I am afraid that I still do think it of some value. Suppose, for instance, that we got into an argument with the United States about Far Eastern policies—a not altogether unlikely contingency.
  Suppose a United States Government—not this one, perhaps, but a future Government—said, "Either you go with us, and join with us, and accept our view that we have to take the war to the mainland of China or we have an agonising reappraisal of what is to happen in Europe." Can we honestly say that we should feel entirely the same in any such discussion according to whether or not we had nuclear weapons of our own? I must say that I think it makes a difference here.
  These doubts about the United States have probably been increased recently for two reasons. First of all, there can be no denying that America is now becoming much less dependent on European and British bases than she was a few years ago, and when she has developed to the full her intercontinental ballistic missiles, that is bound to be the case. Secondly, at the same time, her own power to destroy Russian nuclear power by a first strike in defence of Western Europe is obviously now far less—I suppose, indeed, that it is almost extinguished.
  Let me put it in another way. If the United States is faced with the problem now of whether to use nuclear weapons in the defence of Europe, she has to consider two things. First, she has to consider that even if she does not she is not destroyed at once; she does not lose all power of defending herself. Secondly, she has to consider that if she were to use these nuclear weapons, this will not save her cities from destruction.
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  This is a fairly serious thing, and it is bound to make all European countries a little more nervous, shall I say, than they were before about the likelihood of an American Government, faced with this appalling decision, taking her stand with Western Europe.
  I know that some people say that this is all irrelevant, because we have not any retaliatory power of our own, anyhow, but the answer surely is that at present we do have some retaliatory power—I would say, quite a cosiderable retaliatory power. Unless I can be convinced that the Soviet Union is able on the first strike to extinguish all capacity for us to hit back, we have some retaliatory power.
  It is, of course, obvious—overwhelmingly obvious—that this retaliatory power is very small compared with either the Russian power itself or the American power. All I moan is that if we got into the situation—it may be very hypothetical, but one has to consider these things—in which we had had a little difficulty with the Americans, and the Russians were threatening us over some issue about which we felt strongly, I cannot help feeling that if the Russians knew that we had the power to inflict fairly serious damage on them it would be a factor that they would take into account.
  That, I think, is the case for our having our own independent nuclear weapon, but I would not, of course, deny for one moment that there is also a powerful case against. These are matters of balance on which, frankly, I find it impossible to say that it is absolutely clear one way or the other. We have to weigh them up.
  The case against is, first, the simple one of cost and, with that, the argument advanced by many hon. Members during this debate that if we are to go in for, and continue to go in for, nuclear weapons of our own there will be much less money available for other conventional weapons that are also important to us. One accepts that, of course.
  There is also the further argument which cannot be ignored, that, if we persist in our view that we must have our own independent nuclear weapon, now, particularly with the availability of nuclear reactors to other countries, there is a very real danger that the spread of nuclear weapons will take

  1139
  place. I do not say that our decision to renounce these weapons would prevent it. What we have said in our proposals for the so-called non-nuclear club is that we ought to be prepared to give up our own independent nuclear weapon if thereby we can stop the spread.
  I thought the comments of the right hon. Member for Flint, West on this subject were not entirely adequate. He must, surely, understand that there is a tremendous problem here, with the possibility during the next decade that these weapons will spread from one country to another, to, perhaps, 10 or 12 more. It is a very real possibility. One hon. Member said that he was in favour of the nuclear weapon since it enabled David to stand up to Goliath. I do not know that I am so keen on a lot of Davids having a go at one another. Although I do not propose to develop the case tonight because I have not time, I must say that we stand by our proposals here, and I hope that those who oppose them will come forward with some alternative suggestion for arresting the danger.
  As regards the decision, which must, as I say, be taken on a balance, between the alternatives of having or not having our own nuclear weapon, the history is perfectly clear. The Labour Government decided to make the atomic bomb. They did so at a time when, in the first place, we had a great deal of "know-how" derived from the period of the war, and, in the second place, when the future of American foreign policy was wholly uncertain. Indeed, there was a perfectly real possibility at that time that America would go back to isolationism. There is no doubt at all, I think, that that decision was right. Subsequently, the Conservative Government decided to make the hydrogen bomb, and, on a balance of advantages such as I have tried to indicate, we decided that we would support that decision.
  I must emphasise, however, that this does not mean that we think, first of all, that the balance of our defence expenditure, the allocation of our defence resources between the building up of nuclear power and conventional forces, which the Government have followed, is the right one. That is a totally different issue.
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  Secondly, I certainly do not say that we ought to go on producing more and more nuclear weapons. My right hon. Friend the Member for Easington was kind enough to quote what I said at the Scarborough Conference of the Labour Party eighteen months ago. I will repeat it:
  "Because we say we cannot be committed to stopping the manufacture of nuclear weapons, it does not mean that we are permitted to going on and on with their manufacture. The truth is that it is impossible to lay down the details of defence policy and say what one should do in matters of this kind in Opposition."
  It is, of course, easy to laugh at the Opposition and say that we ought to know and that we ought to be able to decide. I say quite frankly that any serious person who thinks about the matter for a moment must understand that, to a large extent, we are in the dark on this issue. My right hon. Friend asked me what more facts I wanted. I will tell him. I want more facts about costs, to start with. I want more facts about efficiency and effectiveness. I want more information about the attitude of our Allies, what we can get from the Americans, and all manner of things of that kind. I believe that this is the only sensible policy to adopt.
  Next, I want to make clear that we are not, of course, saying that we can afford a lot of different nuclear weapons. We certainly do not say that.
  I now turn for a moment to those hon. Members who, while not accepting unilateral disarmament and who defend N.A.T.O. and say that they want us to stay in N.A.T.O., nevertheless apparently are taking a rather different line from my right hon. Friends on this Bench. I think that the right hon. Member for Flint, West finally came down in favour of keeping nuclear weapons but said that we should never use them on our own. I do not know exactly what practical difference his proposal would make to the present situation. It was not clear, so I leave it.
  I now come to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East. Let me say this to him. I could not but be struck by the contrast between the moderation of his conclusion and the violence, dogmatism and vehemence of his arguments. He also seemed to me—I think that if he reads his speech he will see what I mean—not to make it clear whether he was speaking about

  1141
  United Kingdom defence policy or N.A.T.O. defence policy. This is a distinction which we must maintain. I am now talking about the United Kingdom.
  For instance, my hon. Friend spoke of the totally incredible deterrent. I do not believe that the deterrent of the West, if he meant N.A.T.O., is totally incredible. I do not even believe that our own deterrent is totally incredible. It may become so in 5, 6 or 7 years' time. He spoke about keeping in the nuclear club being beyond our resources. It may be expensive, but it is going rather far to use language of that kind. The French, who still have a full-scale war in Algeria on their hands, have, nevertheless, managed to join the nuclear club. The danger is that it is not as expensive as I would like it to be to join the nuclear club. It is all too cheap in many respects.
  My hon. Friend spoke of the decreasing strength of the West, but he made no reference to the main reason for it, if it is true, which is the enormous improvement in Soviet ballistics and nuclear developments. This hardly seemed to me an argument in itself for the West dispensing with nuclear weapons.
  With regard to my hon. Friend's explanation about how he would have kept on the Statute Book the legislation regarding conscription, I did not really feel that that was an adequate answer to the problem. If there is a problem whether we should or should not have gone on with conscription, we do not get out of it by saying, "We could have kept the legislation on the Statute Book", because it is perfectly open to any Government to pass a new law about conscription.
  Having made those criticisms, I accept that the conclusion of my hon. Friend was a mild one. He merely asked us to look where we were going and to change the bias between nuclear and conventional weapons. On that point, I am with him. I am in favour of that. We always have been. We have repeatedly, year after year, from this Bench criticised the Government for putting too much emphasis on nuclear weapons compared with conventional weapons.
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  My right hon. Friend the Member for Easington was a little difficult to follow. I am sorry that he could not agree with our Amendment. I am puzzled because, after all, he accepted the vacillations of the Government. He said so specifically. He even added some extra nouns. He spoke of "the shifts and stratagems" of the Government. We might have got them in our Amendment if we had thought of it. He admitted the waste of the Government. He certainly accepts collective security, yet does not seem willing to agree with our Amendment.
  I have a very simple reason for not accepting my right hon. Friend's Amendment. I think that it carries with it, whether by design or accident, the clear implication that we should not have our own nuclear weapons. It therefore represents a major change in the policy of our party which I am not prepared to accept. If he doubts my views on that, I can only ask him to observe that a number of my hon. Friends, who are well-known to be opposed to nuclear weapons for Britain, have chosen to support him.
  My right hon. Friend, as I understand it, wants us to say that we should have no more nuclear weapons but that we may keep what we have got. He did not explain why he has changed his views since last year. I cannot understand that, because it was last year that Blue Streak was decided upon. In other words, it was last year that we committed ourselves to ballistics compared with aircraft. One would have supposed that at this point he might have said, "Now I will not go any further." He gave me some advice. I will only say this to him—that I hope that, whether I accept his advice or not, I will not change my tune quite so swiftly and quite so frequently as he has done.
  I come now to our criticisms of the Government and I want first to re-echo what my right hon. Friend said about the Thor missile. I cannot see that this missile performs any useful function at all. It is known, and quite officially known, as a "first strike" weapon, which means in plain language that unless it is sent off in advance so that one takes the decision to launch this weapon before the Russians have launched theirs, it is no good whatsoever. I ask the

  1143
  Government whether they really contemplate a situation in which we would use a strategic weapon of this kind in advance and not in defence. We are entitled to a reply. If they say, "No we have no intention of doing so", then I can only say that it seems to me a very silly idea, because all it does is to attract the danger of Russian aggression in the first instance.
  Now I come to the strange story of Blue Streak. It is a strange story, and I see that the Minister of Aviation is present. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) quoted yesterday some comments by The Times correspondent. I thought that they were admirable. I had intended to do so anyway so I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me if I quote them again. I think that they are interesting. This is what The Times correspondent said, referring to the decision of the Minister of Aviation last year to go ahead with Blue Streak—and it was a perfectly plain decision; he came down in favour of it; it is there in black and white in the White Paper. The Times correspondent said:
  "Certainly it sounds as if someone is determined to have a land-based Blue Streak deterrent."
  The following day most of the newspapers reported that Blue Streak was in and Polaris was out. The right hon. Gentleman went further than that. He was so concerned with bringing down Polaris that at a Press conference, when the new programme was announced on 10th February, he questioned seriously the value of the Polaris missile-firing submarine. It would be extremely costly. It was unlikely to remain undetectable and its movements could be closely watched by the enemy.
  So the view of the Tory Government at that time was in favour of Blue Streak and wholly against Polaris. Now we have a completely changed situation. We are still developing Blue Streak, but we are told that it may be a mistake to go in for a fixed land-based liquid fuel missile. In fact everybody is saying that this is just a quiet way of getting rid of Blue Streak altogether. I must say to my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley—I am sorry that he did not agree with our Amendment—that one could not have a better example of
  1144
  vacillation on nuclear policy than what has happened with Blue Streak and Polaris in the last two years.
  Why did the Government take so long to realise the drawback of the fixed land-based liquid fuel missile? It is surely obvious that on grounds of vulnerability, on the ground of the protection of the civil population, there was everything to be said in favour of a mobile rocket. Was it perhaps time—that they could not develop Polaris or Skybolt soon enough? If that is the case, how does the Minister say that there is still plenty of time to decide?
  How much has been spent on Blue Streak? It is all very well for the Government to say, "It is all right, there is time to decide", but they have been spending millions on this. The Minister denied that it was £600 million. Perhaps he would like to say how much it is. Is it £100 million? Can we afford to go chucking £100 million down the drain, scrap it all and say that it is inevitable, as the Secretary of State says—that "we make mistakes from time to time." It may be inevitable, but it does not say much for the prescience and wisdom of the Government.
  But when we speak of the nuclear deterrent today, is this really the problem we are facing? The Minister of Defence has said that we have nuclear bombs and nuclear warheads. We have, as far as I can make out, what we want. What matters surely now is what carrier will convey them, if by any chance they have to be conveyed. What carrier is there to be for the deterrent? This seems to me immensely significant, because the carrier, whether it be a rocket or an aircraft, is not tied up by United States legislation in the same way as are nuclear weapons. There is no particular difficulty about buying the carrier if we want to. Therefore, the case for developing our own ballistic missile is surely enormously weaker. We have to look at it from that point of view.
  I should like to ask the Government what their intentions are now. Are we to spend £500 million on Blue Streak? That seems to be out now, and I think that is a good thing. If we are to go for Polaris or Skybolt, do we intend to develop these on our own or are we

  1145
  simply to add our nuclear warhead? If so, what difference in cost is this likely to make? These are things which we have to know if we are to make a sane and sensible decision about this.
  I turn to the other question which I want to talk about and that is the situation of N.A.T.O. I think that the condition of the alliance today is worse than it has been at any time since it was founded. It is less cohesive, it is more divided, and there is more uncertainty. I think that there are two specific weaknesses associated with N.A.T.O., but both are related to the cardinal weakness, which is the failure to establish effective political control in the alliance.
  The first of these—and I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East—is our over-dependence and over-emphasis on nuclear weapons in Europe. In theory, of course, we ought to have such a force as will be able to contain any attack. We ought to have the deterrents, as it were, at different levels; but the fact is that the whole strategy of N.A.T.O. is so based on nuclear weapons now that there are the gravest doubts as to whether we could adequately contain, not a major conventional attack, because I think that very unlikely, but some development out of friction, dispute and conflict in which conventional weapons are used.
  What makes us more anxious is the fact that the so-called tactical nuclear weapons are now no longer tactical at all. The Germans, it has been announced, have ordered the Mace with a range of 900 miles. That is not a tactical weapon; it is a strategic weapon. We are getting away from the idea of battlefield weapons. I think that the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Sir A. Spearman) who spoke before me, is quite right. It is extremely doubtful whether the West would be prepared to use nuclear weapons in those circumstances and, if so, the deterrent effect of them is lost. I do not say that we should have no nuclear weapons—of course not. The Russians have them and we should have them. But I say that at least the threshold on which we contemplate their use ought to be a great deal higher than it is now. There ought to be a higher proportion spent on conventional forces and a smaller one on nuclear weapons.
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  I must say to the Government that, over all this, we cannt escape our share of responsibility. When the right hon. Gentleman in 1957 cut back our supply of conventional troops, cut them below what we had undertaken in the Paris Agreements, he was setting a very bad example indeed. I think that a lot that has happened since then is a direct result of what he did then.
  The second weakness is that there is no effective political control. The most obvious instance of that is that even to this day there is no arrangement for a political decision on the use of nuclear weapons. Are we really to leave a vital issue of this kind to a general? Are not the Governments to decide this? Surely if the Governments are to decide this, there must be some machinery for reaching that decision. I know the difficulty of fourteen Governments and so on, but I think that these difficulties are sometimes greatly exaggerated.
  I think we could probably get a smaller group entrusted with that decision, but why is nothing done about it? I suggest that we still have uncertainty as to who is responsible, and I say certainly that if we believe in the integration of our forces with N.A.T.O., we must face the problem of political control. We could not have a better example of what goes wrong in this respect when we do not have adequate political control than the story of the German attempt to negotiate a military base agreement in Spain.
  How on earth did this happen? How did it come about that this was not brought to N.A.T.O. at once? I do not know whether hon. Members have seen the report in The Times this morning from its correspondent in Bonn describing what actually happened. It is really pretty frightening. The report reads:
  "After Herr von Brentano had informed Mr. Herter in Paris of the Bundeswehr's logistical difficulties, the Secretary of State, on his return to Washington, discovered that West Germany intended to hold bilateral negotiations with Spain. He called in Dr. Grewe, the West German Ambassador, and pressed for a N.A.T.O. decision first."
  That is more than Her Majesty's Government did. The report continues:
  "There can be no doubt that the American attitude was made known with unusual emphasis. Official impatience is readily understandable in the circumstances, but the department was further exercised by the subsequent action of Herr Strauss—"

  1147
  —The right hon. Gentleman's opposite number. The report continues:
  "Determined to send a mission to Madrid for preliminary discussions in spite of American objections, the Minister informed the American Embassy by letter, which was delivered after the mission's departure."
  Is this the way that one member of N.A.T.O. should behave towards the Alliance? I say that it is completely and absolutey intolerable that this kind of behaviour should go on. Also, it is quite inconsistent with what we all understood to be the position under the Paris Agreements.
  Sir Anthony Eden himself in November, 1954, said in praising those Agreements:
  "It is thus established that no country will be able to use its forces operationally, or even to move them about in the area of SACEUR's command, in a manner inconsistent with the strategy laid down by N.A.T.O. … Equally important is control over logistics. … No modern army can, it seems, hope to operate without an exceedingly complicated system of supply. SACEUR's new responsibilities and powers in these matters will make not only for efficiency, but will also limit the possibilities of independent action by any one country within his system of command."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th November, 1954; Vol. 533, c. 404.]
  That is how the Foreign Secretary, as he was then, commended those Agreements to the House. How can anyone say that this is the kind of thing that has happened in the last few days or weeks? The story that all the Germans needed were some supply dumps and hospitals sounds very unimpressive. If they really need a large amount of space for air training, that is one thing. Let us have the truth about it if that is what they want. But if the space is wanted for dumps or hospitals, is it really necessary to go to Spain? Anyway, what sort of war are they contemplating fighting if the supply dumps and hospitals are going to be hundreds of miles away?
  I hope, too, we shall not have any more quibbles, such as we have had already, that these were not negotiations they were just talks. After what we have heard about Herr Strauss's behaviour, we know just how seriously to treat that.
  I must say this to the Government and to hon. Gentlemen opposite. On this side of the House we still have a healthy dislike of the Fascist Government of Spain. We are opposed as were the
  1148
  Government—and I was glad to hear it—to Spain entering N.A.T.O. I personally regret that the United States made their own independent agreement with Spain, but what is very much worse from the point of view of anybody who remembers the 1930s is the association of Germany and Spain. We really cannot forget two things: first, that a Spanish blue division, sent by the present Government of Spain, fought against us in the war—fought against Russia in the war, against our allies; secondly, we cannot forget, whatever hon. Gentlemen opposite may feel about this, that it was Germany and Italy that helped Franco to get into power.
  I want to ask the Government this firm question again: What are their intentions? I was disturbed by what seemed to be a weakening by the Foreign Secretary in his last comments on this yesterday. Why should we allow Germany to have any bases of any kind in Spain? Are we going to be satisfied if they say that they will only have hospitals and dumps? I ask the Government to give a firm assurance that they will oppose in the N.A.T.O. Council any proposals of this kind whatever.
  This is a situation in N.A.T.O. which we all deplore, but I must repeat that it springs very largely from the gradual weakening which has been going on over the last few years, and for which the Government must carry heavy responsibility. It is because of the weakening of our defence forces, because they have also, as it seems to me, shown the greatest vacillation and confusion, because they are certainly giving us extremely poor value for money, that we have no confidence whatever in the capacity of the Government to organise the defence of the country.
  9.31 p.m.
  The Minister of Defence (Mr. Harold Watkinson): The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said at the beginning of his remarks that he wanted to bring the debate back to some of the broad issues. I do not disagree with that, but he must appreciate that as well as dealing with some of the things he has raised, as I intend to, I must also reply to some of the issues raised by hon. Members, particularly those behind him, which are not entirely in line with his very broad summing up of the Front

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  Bench attitude to defence policy, with which, on the whole, I do not find a great deal to disagree, and I am very glad that is so. That part of his speech seemed to me about the mildest speech I have ever heard justifying a Motion of censure.
  However—and I think he will agree with me on this—if I tried to follow the conflicting advice given to me in this debate, particularly from benches behind the right hon. Gentleman, I should pursue a vacillating course. There have been many cross currents in this debate. I have listened with close attention to practically all of it. I should like to thank those hon. Members who have wished me well. A Minister of Defence needs all the help he can get, and I suppose every hon. Member has a vested interest in his task. I would say only that I wish to keep the House as fully informed as I can about defence matters, because I think that is right, and I think it is the answer to some of the things I have been told from the Opposition benches which, I hope, owe more to ignorance than to design.
  In answering I will first try to deal with some of the big questions which were raised, and rightly raised. In that, I hope I shall answer many of the points which the right hon. Gentleman has raised. Before I do that, however, I would like to say a word about the three very outstanding maiden speeches which we have heard.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chelsea (Captain Litchfield) spoke with great knowledge and accuracy about the Royal Navy and the Services. My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. M. Hamilton) made some points about Germany which I thought were very valid and interesting. I am not sure we all agree that it would be a good thing to drop the Defence White Paper after this year—nor am I sure whether in making my own maiden speech, I would have had the courage to give that sort of advice to my own Front Bench—but I certainly congratulate him upon it. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Critchley) said some very wise things about N.A.T.O. I will return to that in a moment.
  The whole House will be happy to join with me in congratulating my three hon.
  1150
  Friends and in saying how much we hope they will intervene again in our debates, and that they will undoubtedly make a considerable contribution to them. I was much attracted by the idea of a small committee which might help me to shorten the immense gap which often exists between an idea being born and being translated into hardware which could be used, an idea contained in the maiden winding-up speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Wells (Lieut.-Commander Maydon) last night. I should like to study that idea closely.
  The first main question which has run through the debate is that of N.A.T.O., its strength and Her Majesty's Government's relationship to it. The first thing I must do is to try to present the facts. I do not accept the assessment of its strength given by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition or by the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg). I differ from the hon. Member for Dudley with diffidence, because I know how closely he studies these things, but perhaps he will accept this from me as being the best estimate I can give of N.A.T.O.'s present strength.
  It is not customary or proper for one member Government of N.A.T.O. publicly to disclose the details of the numbers and so on, but in my researches I found a very good pamphlet recently issued by the Institute of Strategic Studies and entitled "The Soviet Union and N.A.T.O. Powers—The Military Balance". This pamphlet quotes certain figures and I can tell the hon. Member from my own knowledge that those figures seem to me to come from a well-informed source.
  The gist of them is that the present target for land forces in the central sector, to be reached in 1963, is 30 divisions. That has been accepted as a planning figure, which is the important point and which contradicts what the hon. Member said. The Supreme Commander has at his disposal in the central sector at present 2⅓ divisions, which is not a bad figure. That shows that N.A.T.O. has a reasonable volume of strength of its own. We all know that the Supreme Commander would like to have stronger forces. That is a matter which comes up at every N.A.T.O. meeting. When I go to the N.A.T.O. Defence Ministers'

  1151
  Meeting at the end of this month, I hope that I may be able to put forward proposals which will strengthen the shield aspect of the N.A.T.O. forces.
  It is said that we have not made our proper contribution to N.A.T.O. The right hon. Gentleman knows as well as I that the drawing down of our original contribution to N.A.T.O. was done under the perfectly proper terms of the original agreement, which allowed us, in the event of an acute overseas emergency, or in the event of too great a strain on the external finances of the United Kingdom, to draw down our forces, provided that W.E.U. agreed, and the condition of W.E.U.'s agreement was that SACEUR should advise that that course was acceptable to him.
  As the right hon. Gentleman knows, we made our formal request in February, 1957, and we received permission to reduce our forces. Indeed, we said at that time that we would draw down our forces even more than we have done. At the last N.A.T.O. meeting I was able to say that we would hold our strength in B.A.O.R. at seven brigade groups, and I have since been able to be more specific and say that we would keep a large air force in Germany and strengthen it by putting Valiant bombers there.
  I think that the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), who has seen General Norstad recently, will agree that the present position of our contribution to N.A.T.O. is quite acceptable to the Supreme Commander. The words "as long as" were certainly used, as were the words "for the time being", but what is meant by that is that as long as it is necessary, by which we mean—and this is what I hope to say when I go to the N.A.T.O. Defence Ministers' Meeting at the end of this month—that we wish to strengthen N.A.T.O., particularly the shield forces, and we want to play our full part in the alliance, and we will keep our forces there, as long as it seems necessary for us so to do, to keep the alliance strong, vigorous and efficient.
  I do not think the claim can be made that we are not playing our proper part in the N.A.T.O. Alliance. It is known in N.A.T.O. that we not only play a part with our land forces. What about our naval contribution to the European
  1152
  Supreme Commander, to the Supreme Commander, Atlantic, and to the Channel Command? What about the fact, for example, that our tactical bomber force at home is also committed to SACEUR?
  It is true, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Horncastle (Commander Maitland) so rightly said—and I hope that both sides of the House will accept this—that we would be foolish in this House, or in our own country, to depreciate too much the effort that we make, and indeed the effort that the whole of the West makes. That seems to be the most likely way to depreciate the validity of the deterrent on which the peace of the West rests. The attempt made by the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) to denigrate everything that we were doing in Europe was nothing but a complete disservice to the cause of peace.
  One question which has been raised may be of interest to the House. It is said, "But of course we have cut our forces down so much that we cannot maintain our proper position in Europe". I would ask the House to look at this. The main German forces still rest on the basis of twelve months' conscript service. Do we accept that a British Service man who is now well paid, who is a highly efficient, well-armed and well-equipped, Regular soldier, is only the equivalent of a German soldier who serves for only twelve months' conscript service? It is clearly known and accepted in N.A.T.O. that our new Regular Forces have an efficiency, quality and fighting power which is worth two or three conscript soldiers even in the German forces. [AN HON. MEMBER: "Who is denigrating now?"] I am merely stating a military fact. I am not interested in doing other than try to present the balance of facts to the House.*
  Our contribution to N.A.T.O. is a powerful one. It fulfils our obligations, and we intend to go on playing our part in trying to make N.A.T.O. viable and efficient, and, indeed, in ensuring that it remains the core of our defences in the West.
  I might as well deal now with the right hon. Gentleman's point about the Spanish bases which was fully dealt with
  * NOTE.—See Official Report, 2nd March, 1960, c. 1223.
  by my right hon. Friend the other day. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It certainly was. I would add only two points of which I think the House should take account. First, it is clear from this that whatever view one takes about it, it is essential to have a strong N.A.T.O., and to have Germany firmly incorporated within N.A.T.O. I think that the right hon. Gentleman will agree with that, and I hope that the House will also agree with it. It has shown what immense safeguards there are in this course.
  The other thing is that Dr. Adenauer has said clearly, and it is on the record, that he wishes any negotiations—and there are no definite negotiations at the moment—to take place only through N.A.T.O. In my view—and I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman dissociated himself from those few of his hon. Members who are on the record as saying that they wish to do away with N.A.T.O.—it is an essential safeguard that Germany should be within N.A.T.O. and regarded as a firm and equal partner. That is the wish of Dr. Adenauer himself, which I think the House should support.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that nothing could damage N.A.T.O. more, and far outweigh any conceivable military argument, than for Germany to have any kind of bases in Spain? If that is the case why cannot the Government say, here and now, that they will oppose any suggestion of this kind in N.A.T.O.?
  Mr. Watkinson: That is a matter which will be debated in N.A.T.O. That is where it should be decided. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer the question."] The Government's position, as given by my right hon. Friend, is quite plain, and I think that we had better get on with what is supposed to be a debate on defence.
  I am very surprised that such scant mention was made by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition to a subject that I hoped would be one of the central features of the debate, namely, disarmament. His right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) was kind enough to say that I opened and closed my speech with an emotional plea for disarmament. I am surprised that the Leader of the Opposition did not mention disarmament at all.
  1154
  I wonder why. The alternative to continuing the balance of nuclear strength between the West and the Communist world is controlled and comprehensive disarmament. I hope that that is what the Opposition want. I still think it strange that it should be left to a Minister of Defence and not to anybody on the Opposition Front Bench to deal with this most important issue.
  I now turn to the Motion in the name of the right hon. Member for Easington. I accept what he said about disarmament. I accept that the whole House wants disarmament. I said that nobody wanted it more than the Government, and it is to the Government's credit that we played a prominent part in the establishment of the 10-Power Disarmament Committee, which we hope will start profitable and useful work in Geneva. That is why I entirely disagree with the right hon. Gentleman's Motion. It is entirely out of line with events. It is out of line with Mr. Khrushchev's recent actions, because he has done now what my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation did two years ago. He has proclaimed a noticeable shift to a reliance upon nuclear deterrence. It is also notable that in his own disarmament proposals Mr. Khrushchev puts nuclear disarmament at the bottom of the list and conventional disarmament first.
  I am entirely in agreement with the Leader of the Opposition that pleas for the renunciation of the nuclear deterrent at this moment cannot do any service to the cause of disarmament and, indeed, are not at all in line with the facts of the defence situation or the disarmament situation. If we were to throw away our nuclear weapons today we should not 'help the cause of peace; we should rather hinder it. Therefore, in that matter at least I do not disagree with the Leader of the Opposition. I am glad that he reaffirmed the position of his party today. He said that we should have an independent nuclear deterrent, and he gave some good reasons for that, although he went on to qualify what kind of deterrent it would be.
  We must not misunderstand the contribution which we are making today. Many hon. Members—I hope through ignorance—have tended to refer to our small contribution, and to the fact that it is inefficient or is not a very lasting

  1155
  one. The facts are that despite the coming missiles and rockets the American Strategic Air Command still wields probably the most terrifying retaliatory power that exists in the world, in any one force. Our own British force of medium bombers plays an essential part within that concept. They are armed with weapons of immense power and therefore this country is playing an important part in maintaining the nuclear deterrent power in the West. This force is mobile. It can take off at short notice. It is widely dispersed and there is no doubt that even against a surprise attack it retains a greater power for retaliation than the right hon. Gentleman was willing to allow.
  I am glad that he agrees with the Government that that position has to be maintained. As to how it is maintained in the later years of the 1960s and the early 1970s I will only say, as I said earlier in the debate, that our difficulty as a nation is that we must pick weapons which are efficient, which have the greatest validity. We have to pick winners right out of the stable—[HON. MEMBERS: "Blue Streak"]—therefore, it is not wrong that we should choose as freely as we can and as late as we can. The right hon. Gentleman quoted The Times in reference to my right hon. Friend. Perhaps he did not read the leading article in The Times on 17th February which said clearly that the choice of Blue Streak at the time it was made—which was a lot earlier than the right hon. Gentleman said—was the correct choice. At that time it had the best prospect of being the most suitable weapon to succeed the V-bombers.
  At the moment the situation is that the development of this weapon goes on, but, as I told the House as clearly as I could, there are other weapons available which we must carefully examine to see what best meets our needs. I do not think there is anything in that but an attempt to maintain our own independent contribution as efficiently and at as reasonable a cost as we can.
  I come now to the Opposition Amendment. It charges the Government with vacillation and indecision. I wonder whether those are wise words in the light of the debate which we have had.
  1156
  I do not do more than record that among hon. Members opposite there is a wide measure of vacillation and confusion about what their defence policy should be. I think that the views of hon. Members opposite are sincerely held and I do not question them, but none the less, vacillation and confusion certainly exist at the moment in the Labour Party regarding its future defence policy.
  It is said by some hon. Members opposite that there is a great deal of waste. The right hon. Member for Easington said that he absolved the Government from any charge of waste in their defence effort. I accept that from the right hon. Gentleman, bearing in mind his long experience in military matters, although I disagree with his general thesis about nuclear defence. As he said, he is still a member of the Labour Party.
  Leading on from the charge of vacillation and confusion I wish to deal with something which has been said by a number of hon. Members, that we do not get very much for our money. The best way I can end my remarks is to give the House some examples of what we do get. For the Royal Air Force we get hundreds of Valiants, Victors and Vulcans, several hundreds of Javelins, some hundreds of Hunters and over 500 Canberras. Those are a few examples. For the Army we get the Saladin armoured car, the Ferret scout car, the Saracen command vehicle, the new tank, the Skeeter helicopter and the new rifle. There are many other examples. In accommodation we have single accommodation for 15,500 officers and men and 9 million square feet of storage. In the Navy we have six aircraft carriers, eight destroyers and a great many new aircraft, including the Sea Venom, the Scimitar, the Gannet and the Sea Vixen. The fact is that with the money laid out for defence over the past eight years we have done exactly what it was intended to do. Our conventional forces have been increased. Let us remember that the nuclear complement of our defence is still only around 10 per cent., so that its redistribution would not greatly help our effort. What has really happened is that, after the difficulties of the Korean War which both sides of the House bore on their shoulders, the re-equipment programme has gathered

  1157
  strength, our new all-Regular Services will be better-equipped, more mobile, and have greater hitting power than ever before in their history.
  That brings me to one thing on which I very much agree with the right hon. Member for Belper. I should like to end on perhaps a slightly different note. It is right that we should have these debates. It is right that we should question all the issues, but I think it also right that we should have our personal views on this matter. I do not at all disagree that personal views should differ in this House on these matters. I know they are held sincerely. Perhaps, in conclusion, I may say something about the personal views of those who try to bear this burden, as I think the right hon. Gentleman and his friends wish to do, this burden of maintaining this programme of the major nuclear deterrent and playing our part in N.A.T.O. and in the world. It costs us an immense sum of money. Most people, I think, could make a case for spending that money on roads, on hospitals or something else—
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Watkinson: I know the hon. Member is sincere on that, but this is a burden which both sides of the House since the war have sought to bear and both sides, although differing in detail, have been agreed that the job of our nation is to try to deter war by maintaining a firm deterrent, both conventional and nuclear.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that when one remembers how emotional the anti-nuclear disarmers are allowed to get, it is sometimes a little hard because
  we are never allowed to have any feelings. I think we have feelings, those of us who try to carry this burden. I think our feelings are best expressed by saying this. Most of us have seen two wars. Most of us know that a third war would be immensely more destructive and might end our civilisation. We maintain this deterrent, this position of strength—until we can get disarmament, as we hope—because we sincerely and honestly believe that it is the only way to keep the peace in the world. We have a right to take a pride in that.
  We have a right to say that it is a moral cause to try to do this. I certainly join with the right hon. Gentleman and his friends in this. It is a task for the nation. It is not a task for any particular party. Those people who honestly feel that they cannot join it have a right to their consciences and to their say, but I must say again that the majority of the nation and, I hope—whatever our divisions may be tonight—the majority of this House believe that the right course to keep the peace is to do what successive Governments have done since the war. That is, to maintain our force for peace in the world. That means paying the price for it and being willing to use nuclear defence or anything else that is available. That is what I believe we should do and what the Government intend to do. I hope we shall have the support of the Opposition in it, despite a Division in the Lobbies tonight.
  Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question:—
  The House divided: Ayes 330, Noes 197.

  Division No. 45.]

  AYES

  [9.59 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald (Toxteth)

  Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

  Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

  Bidgood, John C.

  Burden, F. A.

  Allason, James

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Bingham, R. M.

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Amory, Rt. Hn. D. Heathcoat (Tiv'tn)

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

  Arbuthnot, John

  Bishop, F. P.

  Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

  Ashton, Sir Hubert

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Bossom, Clive

  Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

  Balniel, Lord

  Bourne-Arton, A.

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Barber, Anthony

  Box, Donald

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Barlow, Sir John

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John

  Chataway, Christopher

  Barter, John

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Batsford, Brian

  Braine, Bernard

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

  Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

  Brewis, John

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Beamish, Col. Tufton

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Cleaver, Leonard

  Bell, Ronald (S. Bucks.)

  Brooman-White, R.

  Cole, Norman

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Browne, Percy (Torrington)

  Collard, Richard

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

  Bryan, Paul

  Cooke, Robert

  Berkeley, Humphry

  Bullard, Denys

  Cooper, A. E.

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  Page, Graham

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

  Cordle, John

  Hurd, Sir Anthony

  Partridge, E.

  Corfield, F. V.

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

  Costain, A. P.

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Peel, John

  Coulson, J. M.

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Percival, Ian

  Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

  Jackson, John

  Peyton, John

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  James, David

  Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

  Critchley, Julian

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Pilkington, Capt. Richard

  Crowder, F. P.

  Jennings, J. C.

  Pitman, I. J.

  Cunningham, Knox

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Pitt, Miss Edith

  Curran, Charles

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Pott, Percivall

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Dance, James

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Joseph, Sir Keith

  Price, H. A. (Lewisham, W.)

  Deedes, W. F.

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Prior, J. M. L.

  de Ferranti, Basil

  Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Kerby, Capt. Henry

  Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Doughty, Charles

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Ramsden, James

  Duncan, Sir James

  Kimball, Marcus

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Duthie, Sir William

  Kirk, Peter

  Rees, Hugh

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

  Kitson, Timothy

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Eden, John

  Lagden, Godfrey

  Renton, David

  Elliott, R. W.

  Lambton, Viscount

  Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

  Emery, Peter

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Langford-Holt, J.

  Rippon, Geoffrey

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Erroll, F. J.

  Leavey, J. A.

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Leburn, Gilmour

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Farr, John

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. H.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Fell, Anthony

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Roots, William

  Finlay, Graeme

  Lilley, F. J. P.

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Lindsay, Martin

  Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

  Forrest, George

  Linstead, Sir Hugh

  Russell, Ronald

  Foster, John

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan

  Fraser, Hn. Hugh (Stafford & Stone)

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Longbottom, Charles

  Seymour, Leslie

  Freeth, Denzil

  Longden, Gilbert

  Sharples, Richard

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Shepherd, William

  Gammans, Lady

  Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

  Simon, Sir Jocelyn

  Gardner, Edward

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  George, J. C. (Pollok)

  McAdden, Stephen

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'rd & Chiswick)

  Gibson-Watt, David

  MacArthur, Ian

  Smithers, Peter

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  McLaren, Martin

  Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

  Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

  Glyn, Col. Richard H. (Dorset, N.)

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute & N. Ayrs.)

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Godber, J. B.

  McLean, Neil (Inverness)

  Speir, Rupert

  Goodhart, Philip

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Stanley, Hon. Richard

  Goodhew, Victor

  MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Gower, Raymond

  McMaster, Stanley

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Grant, Rt. Hon. William (Woodside)

  Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

  Stodart, J. A.

  Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

  Green, Alan

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Storey, Sir Samuel

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Madden, Martin

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Grimston, Sir Robert

  Maginnis, John E.

  Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

  Maitland, Cdr. J. W.

  Sumner, Donald (Orpington)

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Talbot, John E.

  Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Tapsell, Peter

  Hare, Rt. Hon. John

  Marlowe, Anthony

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

  Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest

  Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.)

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Marshall, Douglas

  Teeling, William

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Marten, Neil

  Temple, John M.

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  Mathew, Robert (Honiton)

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Thomas, Peter (Conway)

  Hay, John

  Mawby, Ray

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Hendry, Forbes

  Mills, Stratton

  Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

  Hicks Beach, Maj. W.

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Hiley, Joseph

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Turner, Colin

  Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

  Morgan, William

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

  Morrison, John

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Hobson, John

  Nabarro, Gerald

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Hocking, Philip N.

  Neave, Airey

  Vaughan-Morgan, Sir John

  Holland, Philip

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John

  Noble, Michael

  Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

  Hopkins, Alan

  Nugent, Sir Richard

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Patricia

  Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. D.

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek

  Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives)

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Ward, Rt. Hon. George (Worcester)

  Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

  Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

  Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Watts, James

  1160

  1161

  Webster, David

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Woollam, John

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Wise, Alfred

  Worsley, Marcus

  Whitelaw, William

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Woodhouse, C. M.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Mr. Redmayne and Mr. Legh.

  NOES

  Ainsley, William

  Hayman, F. H.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Albu, Austen

  Healey, Denis

  Oswald, Thomas

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis)

  Owen, Will

  Awbery, Stan

  Herbison, Miss Margaret

  Padley, W. E.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Hill, J. (Midlothian)

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Beaney, Alan

  Hilton, A. V.

  Parker, John (Dagenham)

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Holman, Percy

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Bence, Cyril (Dunbartonshire, E.)

  Houghton, Douglas

  Peart, Frederick

  Benn, Hn. A. Wedgwood (Brist'l, S. E.)

  Howell, Charles A.

  Pentland, Norman

  Benson, Sir George

  Hoy, James H.

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Blackburn, F.

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Popplewell, Ernest

  Blyton, William

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Boardman, H.

  Hunter, A. E.

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Bowden, Herbert W. (Leics, S. W.)

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Probert, Arthur

  Bowles, Frank

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Boyden, James

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Randall, Harry

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Janner, Barnett

  Redhead, E. C.

  Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

  Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

  Reid, William

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Jeger, George

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Rhodes, H.

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Robens, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Callaghan, James

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Carmichael, James

  Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield)

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Castle, Mrs. Barbara

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Ross, William

  Chapman, Donald

  Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Short, Edward

  Chetwynd, George

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Cliffe, Michael

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Small, William

  Collick, Percy

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Snow, Julian

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  King, Dr. Horace

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Crosland, Anthony

  Lawson, George

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Cullen, Mrs. Alice

  Ledger, Ron

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Darling, George

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Stonehouse, John

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Stones, William

  Deer, George

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Logan, David

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)

  Delargy, Hugh

  Loughlin, Charles

  Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

  Dempsey, James

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Summerskill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Edith

  Diamond, John

  McCann, John

  Sylvester, George

  Dodds, Norman

  MacColl, James

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Donnelly, Desmond

  McInnes, James

  Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

  Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. Chuter

  Mackie, John

  Thornton, Ernest

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  McLeavy, Frank

  Timmons, John

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Tomney, Frank

  Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

  Mahon, Simon

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Evans, Albert

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Finch, Harold

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Fitch, Alan

  Manuel, A. C.

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Fletcher, Eric

  Mapp, Charles

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Forman, J. C.

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Whitlock, William

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Marsh, Richard

  Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Mason, Roy

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Willey, Frederick

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd

  Mellish, R. J.

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Ginsburg, David

  Mendelson, J. J.

  Williams, Rev. Ll. (Abertillery)

  Gooch, E. G.

  Millan, Bruce

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

  Gourlay, Harry

  Monslow, Walter

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Moody, A. S.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Grey, Charles

  Morris, John

  Woof, Robert

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Moyle, Arthur

  Wyatt, Woodrow

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Mulley, Frederick

  Gunter, Ray

  Neal, Harold

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Mr. J. Taylor and

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

  Mr. G. H. R. Rogers.

  Main Question put:—
  The House divided: Ayes, 329, Noes 245.

  Division No. 46.]

  AYES

  [10.13 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Ashton, Sir Hubert

  Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

  Amory, Rt. Hn. D. Heathcoat (Tiv'tn)

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Allason, James

  Arbuthnot, John

  Balniel, Lord

  1162

  1163

  Barber, Anthony

  Fraser, Hn. Hugh (Stafford & Stone)

  Longbottom, Charles

  Barlow, Sir John

  Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Barter, John

  Freeth, Denzil

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Batsford, Brian

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

  Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

  Gammans, Lady

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Beamish, Col. Tufton

  Gardner, Edward

  McAdden, Stephen

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  George, J. C. (Pollok)

  MacArthur, Ian

  Bell, Ronald (S. Bucks.)

  Gibson-Watt, David

  McLaren, Martin

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

  Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute & N. Ayrs.)

  Berkeley, Humphry

  Glyn, Col. Richard H. (Dorset, N.)

  McLean, Neil (Inverness)

  Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald (Toxteth)

  Godber, J. B.

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

  Bidgood, John C.

  Goodhart, Philip

  MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Goodhew, Victor

  McMaster, Stanley

  Bingham, R. M.

  Gower, Raymond

  Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Grant, Rt. Hon. William (Woodside)

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Bishop, F. P.

  Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Green, Alan

  Madden, Martin

  Bossom, Clive

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Maginnis, John E.

  Bourne-Arton, A.

  Grimston, Sir Robert

  Maitland, Cdr. J. W.

  Box, Donald

  Grosvenor, Lt.-Col, R. G.

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Markham, Major Sir Frank

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

  Marlowe, Anthony

  Braine, Bernard

  Hare, Rt. Hon. John

  Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest

  Brewis, John

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

  Marshall, Douglas

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Marten, Neil

  Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Mathew, Robert (Honiton)

  Brooman-White, R.

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

  Browne, Percy (Torrington)

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald

  Bryan, Paul

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Mawby, Ray

  Bullard, Denys

  Hay, John

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

  Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

  Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

  Burden, F. A.

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Mills, Stratton

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Hendry, Forbes

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Hicks Beach, Maj. W.

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

  Hiley, Joseph

  Morgan, William

  Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

  Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

  Morrison, John

  Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

  Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Nabarro, Gerald

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Hobson, John

  Neave, Airey

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Hocking, Philip N.

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

  Chataway, Christopher

  Holland, Philip

  Noble, Michael

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John

  Nugent, Sir Richard

  Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

  Hopkins, Alan

  Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

  Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Patricia

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. D.

  Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Cleaver, Leonard

  Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives)

  Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

  Cole, Norman

  Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Collard, Richard

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

  Page, Graham

  Cooke, Robert

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

  Cooper, A. E.

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Partridge, E.

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Hurd, Sir Anthony

  Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Peel, John

  Cordle, John

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Percival, Ian

  Corfield, F. V.

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Peyton, John

  Costain, A. P.

  Jackson, John

  Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

  Coulson, J. M.

  James, David

  Pilkington, Capt. Richard

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Pitman, I. J.

  Critchley, Julian

  Jennings, J. C.

  Pitt, Miss Edith

  Crowder, F. P.

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Pott, Percivall

  Cunningham, Knox

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Curran, Charles

  Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Price, H. A. (Lewisham, W.)

  Dance, James

  Joseph, Sir Keith

  Prior, J. M. L.

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho

  Deedes, W. F.

  Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

  Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

  de Ferranti, Basil

  Kerby, Capt. Henry

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Ramsden, James

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Doughty, Charles

  Kimball, Marcus

  Rees, Hugh

  Duncan, Sir James

  Kirk, Peter

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Duthie, Sir William

  Kitson, Timothy

  Renton, David

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

  Lagden, Godfrey

  Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

  Eden, John

  Lambton, Viscount

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Elliott, R. W.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Rippon, Geoffrey

  Emery, Peter

  Langford-Holt, J.

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Leavey, J. A.

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Erroll, F. J.

  Leburn, Gilmour

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. H.

  Roots, William

  Farr, John

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Fell, Anthony

  Lilley, F. J. P.

  Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

  Finlay, Graeme

  Lindsay, Martin

  Russell, Ronald

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Linstead, Sir Hugh

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan

  Forrest, George

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Foster, John

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Seymour, Leslie

  1164

  1165

  Sharples, Richard

  Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.)

  Ward, Rt. Hon. George (Worcester)

  Shepherd, William

  Teeling, William

  Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

  Simon, Sir Jocelyn

  Temple, John M.

  Watts, James

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  Webster, David

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'd & Chiswick)

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Smithers, Peter

  Thomas, Peter (Conway)

  Whitelaw, William

  Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

  Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

  Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Speir, Rupert

  Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Stanley, Hon. Richard

  Tilney, John (Wavertree)

  Wise, Alfred

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Turner, Colin

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard

  Stodart, J. A.

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Woodhouse, C. M.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Storey, Sir Samuel

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Woollam, John

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Vaughan-Morgan, Sir John

  Worsley, Marcus

  Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Sumner, Donald (Orpington)

  Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

  Talbot, John E.

  Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Tapsell, Peter

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

  Mr. Redmayne and Mr. Legh

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

  Ledger, Ron

  Ainsley, William

  Evans, Albert

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Albu, Austen

  Fernyhough, E.

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Finch, Harold

  Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Fitch, Alan

  Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

  Awbery, Stan

  Fletcher, Eric

  Lipton, Marcus

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Forman, J. C.

  Logan, David

  Baird, John

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  Loughlin, Charles

  Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, W.)

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Beaney, Alan

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  McCann, John

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd

  MacColl, James

  Bence, Cyril (Dunbartonshire, E.)

  Ginsburg, David

  McInnes, James

  Benn, Hn. A. Wedgwood (Brist'l, S. E.)

  Gooch, E. G.

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Benson, Sir George

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  Mackie, John

  Blackburn, F.

  Gourlay, Harry

  McLeavy, Frank

  Blyton, William

  Greenwood, Anthony

  MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

  Boardman, H.

  Grey, Charles

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Bowden, Herbert W. (Leics, S. W.)

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Mahon, Simon

  Bowles, Frank

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Boyden, James

  Grimond, J.

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

  Gunter, Ray

  Manuel, A. C.

  Brockway, A. Fenner

  Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

  Mapp, Charles

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

  Hamilton, William (West Fife)

  Marsh, Richard

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Hart, Mrs. Judith

  Mason, Roy

  Brown, Thomas (Ince)

  Hayman, F. H.

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Healey, Denis

  Mellish, R. J.

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (RwlyRegis)

  Mendelson, J. J.

  Callaghan, James

  Herbison, Miss Margaret

  Millan, Bruce

  Carmichael, James

  Hill, J. (Midlothian)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Castle, Mrs. Barbara

  Hilton, A. V.

  Monslow, Walter

  Chapman, Donald

  Holman, Percy

  Moody, A. S.

  Chetwynd, George

  Holt, Arthur

  Morris, John

  Cliffe, Michael

  Houghton, Douglas

  Moyle, Arthur

  Collick, Percy

  Howell, Charles A.

  Mulley, Frederick

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Hoy, James H.

  Neal, Harold

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

  Cronin, John

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

  Crosland, Anthony

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Oliver, G. H.

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Hunter, A. E.

  Oram, A. E.

  Cullen, Mrs. Alice

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Darling, George

  Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

  Owen, Will

  Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Padley, W. E.

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

  Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Janner, Barnett

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

  Parker, John (Dagenham)

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Jeger, George

  Parkin, B. T. (Paddington, N.)

  Deer, George

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Paton, John

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Delargy, Hugh

  Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Dempsey, James

  Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield)

  Peart, Frederick

  Diamond, John

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Pentland, Norman

  Dodds, Norman

  Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Donnelly, Desmond

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Popplewell, Ernest

  Driberg, Tom

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. Chuter

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Probert, Arthur

  Edelman, Maurice

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Proctor, W. T.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  King, Dr. Horace

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Lawson, George

  Randall, Harry

  1166

  1167

  Rankin, John

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Weitzman, David

  Redhead, E. C.

  Stonehouse, John

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Reid, William

  Stones, William

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Reynolds, G. W.

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

  Wheeldon, W. E.

  Rhodes, H.

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Vauxhall)

  Whitlock, William

  Robens, Rt. Hon. Alfred

  Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

  Wigg, George

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Summerskill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Edith

  Wiloock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Swain, Thomas

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Swingler, Stephen

  Willey, Frederick

  Ross, William

  Sylvester, George

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Royle, Charles (Salford, West)

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Williams, Rev. Ll. (Abertillery)

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Short, Edward

  Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  Skeffington, Arthur

  Thornton, Ernest

  Woof, Robert

  Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

  Thorpe, Jeremy

  Wyatt, Woodrow

  Small, William

  Timmons, John

  Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Tomney, Frank

  Zilliacus, K.

  Snow, Julian

  Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Wainwright, Edwin

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

  Warbey, William

  Mr. J. Taylor and

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Watkins, Tudor

  Mr. G. H. R. Rogers.

  Resolved,

  That this House approves the Report on Defence, 1960, contained in Command Paper No. 952.

  COUNCIL OF EUROPE (IMMUNITIES AND PRIVILEGES)
  10.25 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Robert Allan): I beg to move,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Council of Europe (Immunities and Privileges) Order, 1960, be made in the form of the draft laid before this House on 29th January.
  As shown in the Explanatory Note, this Order consolidates the original Order of 1950 with the amending Orders of 1954 and 1958. In asking approval of the Order, we are not seeking to increase the privileges or immunities which the House has already granted the Council of Europe, nor are we adding to the number of those who enjoy them. I hope that with these two comforting thoughts the House will feel enabled to agree to the Order without further recommendation from me.
  10.26 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: The Joint Under-Secretary is asking the House to give approval to the Order. While I imagine that the House will not wish to dissent from the suggestion that it should be approved, nevertheless it is always the duty of the House to scrutinise rather carefully these Orders which come forward from time to time and which confer very unusual immunities and privileges on a increasing number of people.
  The hon. Gentleman has explained that the Order, while being primarily a consolidating Order, introduces certain technical and drafting changes in the Order which was previously in operation. He might have pointed out that some of the changes which are now introduced were inspired by suggestions that emanated from the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments. I am, therefore, personally glad to see that the Committee's recommendations, for which I was partly responsible, have been adopted. For example, Article 9 of the Order now contains the additional words which make it clear that a place of meeting of the Assembly covers the place of meeting of committees or sub-committees.
  1170
  There are, nevertheless, some phrases in the Order which it would be as well if the hon. Gentleman were to clarify, as otherwise I think that they are liable to give rise to considerable misconception. We agree, of course, that in bringing the Order before the House the hon. Gentleman is primarily attempting to give effect to international obligations. Nevertheless, we must make sure that in doing so the Order does not go further than is absolutely necessary for that purpose. I therefore invite the hon. Gentleman to say something about Article 8 (1, b). I think that we can all understand that representatives, whether from this House or from any other European Parliament, who attend the Consultative Assembly should be entitled to the same privileges in respect of anything which they might say in the exercise of their functions at Strasbourg, and similar immunities are, of course, applied to representatives attending meetings of the Committee of Ministers.
  But I ask myself why it is necessary for these immunities to extend to the time when representatives are not merely attending the meetings of the Council, but during their journeys from London to Strasbourg or some other place. Why is it necessary, for example, for a person who chooses to travel by road from London to some other Continental capital to have any special privilege for anything he may do during the course of his journey?
  For example, he may be involved in some road accident and other people may be injured who would normally have rights. Why should they be deprived of their rights? In other words, why should a person, while travelling to meetings of the Assembly, have any privilege over and above those which hon. Members should have while travelling from their homes or place of business to the House? If the hon. Gentleman would answer that question, it would certainly ease my mind in joining him in asking the House to approve the Order.
  10.33 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Clark Hutchison: I do not wish to oppose the Order to the extent of going into the Lobby to vote against it, because it is really an enactment of an old Order with some minor amendments, but I

  1171
  wish to protest most strongly against these privileges and immunities which are granted to all these bodies, Western European Union, the Council of Europe, the Sugar Council and so on.
  Such immunities and privileges should be confined to ambassadors and their immediate staffs. Historically, ambassadors were given such immunities because they represented the persons of their sovereigns. None of these people represents a sovereign. They are just a lot of officials and what we are doing is to make one law for these officials and one law for the rest of the citizens of our country. That is bad practice, bad law, unjust and dangerous.
  I ask my hon. Friend two questions. First, in exactly what way does granting these immunities help the officials to carry out their jobs efficiently and rapidly? Secondly, will my hon. Friend start negotiations with foreign countries to cut down all this arrangement of special privileges and immunities so that we can return to granting them only to ambassadors and high commissioners who are the only people who really deserve them?
  10.34 p.m.
  Mr. R. Allan: If I may, by leave of the House, reply to what has been said, I would say that I have a fair amount of sympathy with the general attitude of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Clark Hutchison), but I must point out that we are not creating two sorts of British citizens, because, in most cases, with certain exceptions, United Kingdom citizens, subjects of Her Majesty, are not given the privileges which other representatives to or officers of these organisations enjoy in this country.
  The main object of these immunities and privileges is to allow these international organisations and their servants or representatives to carry out their work more efficiently. This applies particularly to immunities such as the inviolability of their residences and archives. I admit that it would be more difficult on grounds of efficiency to justify the immunities relating to taxation, but these Orders are a direct result of international agreements already
  1172
  reached. I will see that my right hon. and learned Friend is made aware of what my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South has said and will urge him—although I do not know with what success he will be able to do it—to consider this point in the future when negotiating these international agreements.
  I am grateful to the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) for his reference to the Select Committee. I think three amendments were made while we were consolidating the Orders as a result of the recommendations of the Select Committee. I have no doubt that those amendments have considerably improved the Order which we are now laying before the House. The hon. Gentleman is right in saying that we must not grant greater privileges than the agreement requires, and that duty is, in fact, specifically laid down in the 1950 Act. That is why all these Orders cannot be the same. Each one has to accord with the international agreement that has been signed. Under the 1950 Act we are prohibited from going further than those international agreements stipulate.
  As to the question of journeys, this gives effect to the agreement which was made. In fact, this agreement was made in 1949. The reason for granting this protection to these people on their journeys is simply to ensure that they reach their destinations. They are representatives at the Committee of Ministers and Ministers' Deputies. They are, therefore, important people and should get to their destinations.
  I understand, although I am not quite sure about this, that we in this House are also protected from civil arrest. That, I am afraid, is the only explanation that I can give, and I hope that, with that explanation and my earlier remarks, the House will now agree to this Motion.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Council of Europe (Immunities and Privileges) Order, 1960, be made in the form of the draft laid before this House on 29th January.
  To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of Her Majesty's Household.

  WESTERN EUROPEAN UNION (IMMUNITIES AND PRIVILEGES)
  10.38 p.m.
  Mr. R. Allan: I beg to move,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Western European Union (Immunities and Privileges) Order, 1959, be made in the form of the draft laid before this House on 8th December.
  On 8th December last year I explained to the House that this Order revokes the 1955 Order and re-enacts it to cover the Judges and the Clerk of the Tribunal which was set up by the Convention of 1957. The right hon. and learned Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice) then discovered a drafting error. This error had escaped the notice of the House previously, for it was embodied in the 1955 Order and was consequently re-embodied in this one when it was presented. Thanks, however, to the right hon. and learned Gentleman we have now corrected it. I am grateful to him, and I am apologetic to him and to the House that it should have escaped our notice previously.
  I should like to add in this connection that when we discussed this matter I referred to a printer's error which at that time I believed it to be. As I explained just now, it was, in fact, a drafting error. I want to make this plain lest it should be thought that the fault lay with Her Majesty's Stationery Office which always serves us so accurately. As in December the House accepted my earlier explanation of this Order, I hope that now that we have corrected this minor mistake it will feel able to approve it.
  10.40 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Mulley: I do not wish to delay the House in coming, as I hope, to a satisfactory conclusion on this Order, but I wish to ask whether in bringing it forward now we can assume that Her Majesty's Government have ratified, or will shortly ratify, the Convention signed in Paris on 14th December, 1957, concerning the Agency for the Control of Armaments, because, as the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) has drawn to the attention of the House, obviously the control of armaments is most important and of increasing importance.
  1174
  If we do ratify the Convention we shall be the first of the member Governments to do so. I wonder if the hon. Gentleman can tell us anything about that. I attach very great importance to the Convention.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Gordon Touche): I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is going far beyond the Order.
  Mr. Mulley: I was trying to find out the position. If we are giving immunities and no other Government has ratified the Convention, we shall be giving those immunities under a Convention which is null and void. We are surely entitled to know the background of the Convention under which these immunities are to be granted.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is entitled to ask what action other Governments are taking.
  Mr. Mulley: I was wondering what the position was there. As I understand it, unless these immunities are granted and the Convention is ratified, the work of the Agency in Western European Union will be ineffective. Therefore, I shall be grateful for any information on that point.
  10.43 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Fletcher: As the Minister has said, this Order, or more correctly an earlier draft of this Order, was before the House on 7th December when my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Newport (Sir F. Soskice) made certain observations about it and drew attention to a serious drafting error which really made nonsense of one paragraph. It was as a result of what my right hon. and learned Friend said that on that occasion the Minister decided to withdraw the Order then before the House, with the result that the Minister is now asking the House to approve a corrected form of that draft.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) has inquired, and I will, if I may, support him in inquiring, whether the Minister can tell us what the procedure will be in the event of the House giving its approval to this Order. May we assume that if the House endorses the Order Her Majesty's Government will then be able to sign the Convention or will it be

  1175
  the intention of Her Majesty's Government to wait till other Governments concerned have for their part adhered to the Convention? In addition to that—
  Mr. Peter Kirk: I understood that we had, in fact, already signed the Convention. It is purely a question of ratification, is it not?
  Mr. Fletcher: The question to which my hon. Friend and I are both concerned to know the answer is what will now be the timetable with regard to ratification of the Convention with a view to making it operative and binding as far as this country is concerned.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Newport raised a further point on the Order and I invite the Minister again to say a word about that point, because in its present form I do not find the Order very satisfactory. My right hon. and learned Friend drew attention to the last sentence in the second article. It is provided that any immunity granted under this Order can be waived by the Secretary-General acting on behalf of the organisation, which is a very common form of provision and very convenient, because, as I understand the procedure, these immunities are not infrequently waived in appropriate cases. However, the Order then goes on to say this:
  "No waiver of immunity shall be deemed to extend to any measure of execution or detention of property."
  I ask, why not?
  If it is appropriate for the Secretary-General to waive immunity, for example, in order that legal process may continue against somebody who would otherwise be privileged by reason of this Order, and if such proceedings are successful, why should not the waiver extend so that, for example, some injured party, who has obtained redress or relief in the courts, should be able to enjoy the normal fruits of the litigation or legal process which he has conducted down to that date? It seems to me illogical that the Secretary-General should be prohibited under the terms of this Order even in appropriate cases from waiving an immunity not only in regard to the process itself but also in regard to the execution of any judgment which results from the legal process.
  I cannot believe that that is a necessary provision in the Order or is required
  1176
  by any international obligation. I can quite understand that different circumstances may arise in the case of an ambassador. If the Joint Under-Secretary of State is going to tell us that this is necessary by reason of some international agreement, I, for myself, would think that the international agreement in that respect is defective and ought not to be regarded as a precedent for any future international agreements of this kind.
  10.47 p.m.
  Mr. R. Allan: If I may answer first the point raised by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley), I would say that the Government strongly share his views about the urgency of getting this Convention ratified. Of course, the first step of ratification is this Order. One other point which he made in conversation with Mr. Deputy-Speaker when he was in the Chair was that we would be granting these immunities when the Order is finally made, but the other countries would not have ratified, and the Convention would not be in force. Article 18, the last article of the Order, indicates that it does not come into force and that therefore the immunities and privileges will not be granted till
  "the Convention concerning the Agency for the Control of Armaments enters into force with respect to the United Kingdom."
  That will not be till it is ratified by the other countries—
  Mr. Mulley: I should like to get the matter clear. I am not so concerned about our not granting immunities. What I am concerned about is the Convention coming into force. Can the hon. Gentleman give us information about that?
  Mr. Allan: The moment this Order has been made we shall ratify the Convention, but, of course, the Convention does not come into force till it is ratified by all the other countries of W.E.U. As the hon. Gentleman the Member for Islington, East (Mr. Fletcher) said, we shall, I hope, if the House passes this Order tonight, be the first country to ratify it.
  On the other main point raised by the hon. Member for Islington, East, about the waiver, this provision is in all these agreements. Perhaps the hon. Member did not realise that this article relates to the organisation and not the individuals

  1177
  They are dealt with later—the representatives in Part II and the officers in Part III. Therefore, if anybody were able to bring an action against an individual it would still be possible for him to levy execution on the individual's property. This article relates only to the property of the organisation, as such, and it puts it in a slightly different category. I hope that that explanation will satisfy the hon. Member.
  I have here the actual article on which it is based, namely, Article 4 of Part II of the main Agreement. We are bound by this, but we will bear in mind the hon. Member's point that this may not be a very good provision to have in all such agreements. But in this Order we are bound by Article 4 of Part II and therefore we have to have it in this form.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Western European Union (Immunities and Privileges) Order, 1959, be made in the form of the draft laid before this House on 8th December.
  To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of Her Majesty's Household.

  TECHNICAL AND GRAMMAR SCHOOL, BLACKBURN
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Legh.]
  10.52 p.m.
  Mrs. Barbara Castle: I rise this evening to press upon the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education the strong plea of my local education authority that it may be allowed to proceed without any further delay with the building of the new technical and grammar school in Blackburn. I do so with great confidence that by the reasonableness of the case I shall put to him he will be able to persuade his right hon. Friend to meet my education authority half way on this matter.
  As I am sure he is aware, it was as long ago as June, 1956, that Her Majesty's Inspectors first spoke strongly about the inadequacy of the building and equipment of the present premises of this very important technical and grammar school, and the Blackburn education authority has been struggling ever since then for the inclusion of this new building in its current school building programme. We had been fighting for the building of two completely new schools—one the girls' high school and the other the technical and grammar school—and after a very long tussle we had got the girls' high school.
  But we then found that the Ministry's device for fobbing us off took the form of playing off one against the other. It asked us which one we thought was most important, and after we had chosen and had got one approved we were told that we could have that and not the other. Our answer to that has always been that they were of equally pressing urgency and that it was quite wrong to play them off in this way in our school building programme. If Blackburn was to shed the legacy of the long years of depression in which so little fundamental building was done, and was really to take a stride forward into the second half of the twentieth century as a modern town, we needed both those schools; they were minimal educational requirements.
  In December, 1958, the Blackburn education authority passed a resolution urging the Minister to include this new

  1179
  school in the 1959–60 programme along with two other schools, a Church of England junior school and a Roman Catholic secondary modern school. Unfortunately, we were not able to get more than the junior school and the secondary modern school accepted by the Ministry. Of course, they are both important projects, but neither of them is a local authority school and the local authority technical and grammar school was turned down. The Minister replied that he regretted he was unable to agree to any more items for inclusion in the main 1959–60 programme at this juncture, but he was prepared to consider these proposals when the authority submitted its proposed programmes for 1960–61 and 1961–62, in accordance with the appendix to Circular 342 dealing with extension of Government policy to start dealing with replacement of unsatisfactory schools.
  That letter raised our hopes, because it pointed to the prospect that in 1960–61, or in 1961–62 at the worst, we would get a technical and grammar school as our instalment of the new Government policy under the White Paper and Circular 342. In April, 1959, I saw the Minister personally about this matter—not the present Minister, but his predecessor. I had a long talk with him in which I pointed out very strongly the big discrepancy between standards and development in our State technical and grammar school and those obtaining at the independent Queen Elizabeth Grammar School, a school of a very high status which, in its independent rôle, has been forging ahead and which, with one development after another, has become one of the most up-to-date grammar schools in the country.
  The more it has progressed the more glaring has become the deficiency of the technical and grammar school. This is one of the strong points of the local education authority. It thinks it a very bad principle that the State grammar school should be the Cinderella of education compared with the independent school which is getting resources from private industry for its educational needs. I pointed out to the Minister the difficulty in which the technical and grammar school is expected to do its work.
  I pay great tribute to the staff of the school who have done wonders
  1180
  under circumstances which would have reduced most normal people to despair. As the headmaster pointed out and as I expressed to the Minister, the school was built in 1913 as a selective central school and was never intended for specialist work of the kind it is having to do. It has no specialist room of any kind for this grammar school level. It has no gymnasium. It shares playing fields with other organisations bus rides away from the school premises. In view of the inaccessibility of the playing fields, it is amazing that it has an outstanding record in athletics and games. For practically every period in the week there are eight classes leaving the building to be taught in accommodation, elsewhere.
  I am sure that the Parliamentary Secretary can visualise what this means in a town with the Lancashire climate. Bad weather and loss of time make an intolerable burden for the staff and the pupils. It has no school hall big enough for the school to meet as one body. It has no kitchen or proper washing-up facilities for school meals. The library is a small converted classroom which is also used as a classroom, which means that the sixth form have nowhere to do private study and have to set up desks in the school hall for that purpose.
  Although this is a technical and grammar school, there is no room for commerce. There is no special geography room, and in the room in which geography is taught there is no possibility of practical work as there is no space for side benches in the room, which has to be used in a makeshift way. The biology laboratory is a small room converted from an old laundry. It has no store room and no accommodation for growing plants. The chemistry laboratory is in prefabricated huts 20 yards away from the school. The general science laboratory has no store room and is thoroughly out of date in design.
  I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to remember that Queen Elizabeth Grammar School has just been able to spend £64,000 on a new laboratory block which has been built partly with a contribution from industrial funds and partly with the help of the local authority. Nobody begrudges Queen Elizabeth Grammar School its new laboratory, but surely the minimum we can do is to enable the

  1181
  technical and grammar school to begin to catch up in a moderate way.
  The school cannot purchase the machinery needed for metal work because there is no floor space on which to put it. An engineering workshop is desperately needed. The cookery room is old-fashioned and too small, and there are no facilities for craft work in the art rooms.
  The Parliamentary Secretary will agree that that does not add up to a picture of a technical and grammar school in any satisfactory sense of the term, and that is why I went to see the Minister. In view of the very encouraging reply in January, 1959, about including the school in the 1960–61 or 1961–62 programme, we all lived in hope, and we were astonished by the Minister's answer, "I am sorry that you cannot be included in the period 1960–62 but we will try to fit you in before the end of 1965." My local authority saw red. It is red, and the members saw red. I am not surprised at their reaction.
  The Minister's reply made us particularly angry, because the total amount that the Minister was prepared to authorise us to spend in the programme in the two years 1960–61 and 1961–62 was only £154,000. That is an average of £77,000 for each of the two years. This was about half the average that we had been allowed to spend in the preceding two years. Frankly, we thought that this was not a very promising outcome of the much-heralded new development in education outlined in the White Paper and in Circular 342.
  Last July I took a deputation to the Minister to see one of his chief officers, and there we again urgently pressed the importance of this matter. We were not making empty gestures, for we pointed out, for instance, that we should soon have no customers for our technical college unless we developed the intake of the college by developing the technical and grammar school, and that if the two worked in proper complement we needed 120 pupils in the sixth form of the technical and grammar school, which would mean a minimum floor space of 33,000 sq. ft., whereas the school had only 26,000 sq. ft. We also pointed out that the. White Paper referred to the Government authorising expenditure of £300 million in the next five years on
  1182
  these new phases of education, the replacement of unsatisfactory secondary schools being one of these new developments that we were to see.
  In instalments, the £300 million worked out nationally to £55 million in 1960–61 and £60 million in 1961–62. if Blackburn had its proper share of the first of these sums, £55 million, we should have been allowed to start programmes at the rate of £140,000 a year, instead of which the Minister has authorised building amounting only to £77,000 for each of the two years. So we are getting half of what we consider to be our share of the national figure.
  We were all the more upset because we found that other county boroughs of similar size and status were coming off far better in the programmes for the next two years. Gateshead, for instance, which is very little larger than Blackburn, is being allowed to spend £1 million over the next two years, compared with our £140,000 for the two years. St. Helens is being authorised to spend £427,000 in the two years. We really feel that Blackburn is being discriminated against.
  I know that the Parliamentary Secretary will say that the White Paper said that one of the priorities we had to concentrate on is the reorganisation of schools, and Blackburn has completed the reorganisation of its schools. The Minister even wrote to us, turning down our overtures, saying that Blackburn is very "fortunate" in having completed its reorganisation. I reply that Blackburn is not just fortunate. These things have not fallen from the heavens. During the last few years Blackburn has been driving ahead. It is one of the most keen and go-ahead local authorities. We in Blackburn have pressed ahead with the job, as other authorities should have done. We have had as many difficulties as other local authorities, and, in addition, we have had the cotton problem, the problem of unemployment and the legacy of the terrible depression years. Because we were determined not to submit to these difficulties, we have gone ahead. Yet now we are being penalised. The Minister says that other authorities are to have two, three or four times as much as we can have, because we have gone ahead. I suggest that that is not the right basis on which to encourage development in education.

  1183
  It is against that background that I now bring my plea up to date. I put it with some confidence to the Parliamentary Secretary, because I think there is not now a great deal separating us. I hope he will give me something definite to take back to my authority as a reward for all its drive and initiative during the post-war years. In December, 1959, the education committee in again asking me to take up this matter asked that it be allowed to go ahead with the technical grammar school. Now that we have given up hope of 1960–61, we are concentrating on 1961–62. The committee informed me in December last year
  "We are preparing the schedule of accommodation for the new school, and I can say quite definitely that we should be ready to commence building operations in 1961–62 if the Ministry will agree to our request".
  The Minister has now given us a little more specific ground for hope by saying that we shall be included in 1962–63. He has, as it were, shortened the odds a little. What I ask him quite simply tonight is this. Will he say that we may start building as soon as soon as our plans are ready? What the education committee asks is
  "to be allowed to start the new building earlier than the 1st April, 1962, i.e., some time during the building year 1961–62, and, as you know, the Minister has agreed to consider whether an early start can be allowed if the preliminary work is completed substantially before 1st April, 1962."
  As I say, the schedule of accommodation has been prepared, and we are ready to go ahead with the plans. The committee goes on to say:
  "If permission were granted for an earlier start, we could commence building some time between the 1st April and the 1st July, 1961, assuming there were no undue delay in the approval of the plans at Ministry level."
  There is not much dividing us now. We have been unfairly and harshly treated in some ways. I ask the Minister to reward our patience, our perseverance and our public-spiritedness in education by saying that, as soon as our plans are completed, in 1961 we can go ahead.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education (Mr. Kenneth Thompson): It is not given to many hon. Members to be able to withstand the charm and blandishments with which the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) put her very powerful case.
  1184
  If I appear to be less gracious than her presentation of her argument merits, I hope that she will not think any less of me than she led me to believe she thought during the time when she was being so sweet and reasonable.
  I am very glad to have the opportunity of discussing this matter in public, because it is one of the not so easy cases for both the local authority and the Ministry. There is even less between us than the hon. Lady would lead the House to believe. I do not think that either the Ministry or its officials who have seen and examined the school would part company with the hon. Lady over her description of the facilities and amenities that are available within it. Nor would there be disagreement between us about the need to put these amenities in their proper order and about the value which a school properly built and organised in Blackburn would be to the citizens of that very important city, which I know quite well and which I should like to see properly rewarded for the enterprise which it has shown in education and other matters.
  Therefore, the difference between us is not on whether or not there should be a first-class technical-grammar school in Blackburn. The Ministry of Education, which relies upon keen local authorities to do the work of the Department in various parts of the country, is profoundly grateful at having an authority as keen and ambitious and go-ahead as the Blackburn education authority has shown itself to be. One of the consequences of its keenness and ability has been that it has built a school which, in spite of the difficulties which the hon. Lady has properly described, is doing a very good job indeed. I join with her in congratulating the teachers who manage in these circumstances and the authority which knowing the problems, has persisted in trying to serve the community. Therefore, the question about a new school is not one of whether but of when, and that raises the question which the hon. Lady spoke about, with a little fervour but not heat, whether or not Blackburn is being treated fairly.
  There is no greater problem for a Government to deal with than the question of where priority should fall. It does not matter what part of our social work we are considering, whether hospitals, children's welfare, education, or

  1185
  the dental service. The question of deciding where priority should fall, both over the long term and from time to time, has to be decided. The history of the school building programme since the end of the war has been one of clamorous needs and limited resources and therefore compulsion upon somebody, somewhere, to decide the order of priorities.
  As the hon. Lady has said, from the early days after the end of the war until 1958 or 1959 the need for new schools and accommodation all over the country had to take priority over everything else. Basic needs had to be met throughout the country and, generally speaking, they were met. Then came the problem of reorganisation. Blackburn has a very proud record in this matter, but I hope that the hon. Lady will not think it unfair to say that if one authority gets ahead my right hon. Friend's job is to see that the laggards are brought up to date. If it involves giving them what may appear to be special treatment in order to get them up to date, that does not absolve my right hon. Friend from doing it.
  I am sorry if the Blackburn authority feels that, having done well, it is now being penalised because someone else is being given the necessary resources to do belatedly what Blackburn did voluntarily and in good time. But the Statute binds my right hon. Friend to see that provision is made.
  We come now to the contentious years of the White Paper, from 1960 to 1965. Now that the way ahead is a little clearer, how are we to allocate the resources to see that the national policy contained in the White Paper is put into operation fairly and effectively over the whole country? Although the resources are greater, the problem of deciding the priorities still remains, as I have no doubt it would were the resources double what they are now.
  Blackburn has not been completely overlooked, as the hon. Lady was fair enough to point out. It is getting some share of the provision. I will not repeat the list of schools to be provided in Blackburn. But conditions vary greatly from town to town and authority to authority. I have spent today journeying to West Suffolk where I visited four little village schools and two larger ones. They were in remote areas with scattered
  1186
  communities. I have been given an account of the problems which face an authority of that kind. They are different from those facing Blackburn—the product of the Industrial Revolution and the victim of years of neglect—but they are no less pressing. The people there feel that the Minister must bend his principles and distort the order of priority so as to satisfy their needs. And so it goes on over almost the whole of the country.
  We have to make an objective assessment of the possibilities or the necessity for doing something for the Blackburn school and we have to decide when something can be done. I am sorry to say that is not possible to fit it into the current 1959–60 programme, nor into the 1960–61 programme, the first of the new White Paper programmes. It cannot be fitted into the 1961–62 programme. This is the result of simple mathematics, of adding up the resources available and subtracting the various demands sent to the Minister by authorities all over the country.
  I do not want Blackburn to feel that its preparedness and sense of urgency is not appreciated by the Ministry; it is. I want to go as far as I can to meet the request of the hon. Lady. We have said that we are willing to see this school included in the 1962–63 building programme if the authority gives it number one priority. I hope the authority will consider that is a good thing to do. On the advice of our own representatives in Blackburn, we took the view that the school, with all its limitations, is capable of providing good education, taking that as the time by which it would he replaced.
  We have asked local authorities to get their preparations as far advanced as possible in relation to the programmes they have in the pipeline. We are giving local authorities a chance to work well ahead by giving advance notice of what will be available to them. As the programmes develop and the months pass, we will see whether it is possible to allow an earlier building start.
  The hon. Lady was good enough to drop a hint about the kind of date she had in mind. I do not propose to be bound by a promise made here on the Floor of the House tonight about which dates we will be able to accommodate.

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  Much depends on how various other local authorities get on with their work and what other change of emphasis may be brought to bear on the education scene in Blackburn itself. Who knows? I shall be prepared to keep an open mind on this matter and, if it is possible for this project to come into effect before the
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  1962–63 programme would properly be in effect, we shall do what we can to help the local authority to discharge its obligations and serve the people whom it has the job of looking after.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at nineteen minutes past Eleven o'clock.

  LORD ADVOCATE (QUESTIONS)
  LORD ADVOCATE (QUESTIONS)
SCOTLAND
  Ware Potatoes
  Ware Potatoes
  School Leavers
  School Leavers
  Migraine
  Migraine
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Development Districts (Advisory Facilities)
  Development Districts (Advisory Facilities)
  Coal Exports
  Coal Exports
  Ford Motor Company (Merseyside Project)
  Ford Motor Company (Merseyside Project)
  Accrington
  Accrington
  North Eastern Region
  North Eastern Region
  Tyneside
  Tyneside
  Film Industry (Export Trade)
  Film Industry (Export Trade)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Purchase Tax
  Purchase Tax
  Motor Vehicles (Fuel Tax and Licence Duty)
  Motor Vehicles (Fuel Tax and Licence Duty)
  Premium Bonds
  Premium Bonds
  Local Authorities (Loans)
  Local Authorities (Loans)
  Rating Valuation Office, Ashford
  Rating Valuation Office, Ashford
  Government Expenditure
  Government Expenditure
  Service Departments (Economies)
  Service Departments (Economies)
  Scottish Universities (Rheumatology)
  Scottish Universities (Rheumatology)
  Radcliffe Committee (Evidence)
  Radcliffe Committee (Evidence)
HOUSING
  Requisitioned Houses
  Requisitioned Houses
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  National Parks (Advisory Committees)
  National Parks (Advisory Committees)
  Local Government Commission for England
  Local Government Commission for England
  JURISDICTION AFFECTING CHILDREN (REPORT)
  JURISDICTION AFFECTING CHILDREN (REPORT)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Fertilisers (Report)
  Fertilisers (Report)
  Agricultural Workers
  Agricultural Workers
  WORLD REFUGEE YEAR
  WORLD REFUGEE YEAR
CENTRAL AFRICA
  Federal Discussions
  Federal Discussions
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Hangars, Wig Bay (Sale)
  Hangars, Wig Bay (Sale)
KENYA
  Minister for African Affairs (Departments)
  Minister for African Affairs (Departments)
MEDICAL RESEARCH
  Sahara Nuclear Tests (Fall-out)
  Sahara Nuclear Tests (Fall-out)
EMPLOYMENT
  School Leavers, Scotland
  School Leavers, Scotland
  Unemployment Benefit, The Hartlepools
  Unemployment Benefit, The Hartlepools
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Office, London
  Office, London
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  War Pensions Unemployability Supplement (Earnings)
  War Pensions Unemployability Supplement (Earnings)
TRANSPORT
  Driving Tests, Dartford
  Driving Tests, Dartford
  Vehicles (Accidents)
  Vehicles (Accidents)
SHIPPING
  Nuclear Propulsion
  Nuclear Propulsion
ROADS
  A.5, A.45 and M.1 (Accidents)
  A.5, A.45 and M.1 (Accidents)
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  House of Commons (Committee on Works of Art)
  House of Commons (Committee on Works of Art)
  Victoria Gate, Hyde Park
  Victoria Gate, Hyde Park

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chelmsford

THE COLONIAL DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION
2.35 p.m.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have considered the Report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Financial Structure of the Colonial Development Corporation and when they intend to announce their decisions regarding the various recommendations contained in the Report.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF PERTH): Yes, my Lords, Her Majesty's Government have considered the Report with great care and attention, but I regret that I am not yet in a position to state decisions. There are substantial and difficult issues involved. These are receiving the close consideration of Ministers, but it may be a little while before an announcement is possible.
LORD HASTINGS: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his reply. May I ask him whether he is not acutely aware that the Report suggested that its recommendations, if accepted, should be made effective as from January 1, 1959, and that we are now well into 1960? May I ask him, further, whether he is aware that the lack of funds under the direct control of the Colonial Development Corporation for the express purpose of research and investigation work into new projects is hampering the development of the Corporation, and that I have received complaints about this very matter from members of a delegation from a Colony which has been here recently? Finally,
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may I ask the noble Earl whether the Government would accept a Motion for debate in conjunction with the discussion of the Annual Report, which we may expect to be published quite soon?
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I am very much aware that the Report said that the recommendations should be dated in the accounting sense as from the beginning of 1959. As I have said, this is a very difficult issue and raises questions which require proper consideration. Indeed, one of the reasons why we appointed the Committee with such eminent people as the noble Lord, Lord Sinclair of Cleeve, was because it was difficult; and even after their recommendations it needs a great deal of study. On the second question, which I do not think arises from the original Question, I should like to look into the particular case the noble Lord has mentioned, and perhaps get in touch with him direct. On the noble Lord's third point, I think my answer would be that, subject to the normal channels for arranging such debates, his suggestion seems to me to be an eminently reasonable one.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am sure the noble Earl is aware that this matter was last discussed on the initiation of a Motion by myself. The debate was on the Report of the Committee of the noble Lord, Lord Sinclair of Cleeve, and I hope the noble Earl is going to bear in mind that not only is the need urgent, as the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, has said, but also that for it to work satisfactorily it is important to have the consent of all Parties. That is most important. Perhaps we do not agree with every detail of the financial reconstruction which was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Sinclair of Cleeve, but, because it otherwise does so much that we feel is necessary, we are prepared to accept it and go ahead with it. Surely the Government ought to be doing that now quite urgently.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I well understand what the noble Viscount has said as to the importance of this question, and I can assure your Lordships that it is for that very reason that we want to take care before we give our answers.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, while acknowledging the need for great care in this matter, as in all other matters, could the noble Earl say when the Government will be in a position to make a pronouncement? Is it a matter of weeks, months, years or centuries?
THE EARL OF PERTH: I certainly hope not centuries, my Lords.
LORD SILKIN: Could the noble Earl put it a little nearer than that?
THE EARL OF PERTH: If it pleases the noble Lord, I hope in weeks.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I ask this question? Is the noble Earl's Department itself ready with this matter, and is the trouble only with the Treasury, or where is it?
THE EARL OF PERTH: No, my Lords, this is a question which concerns various Departments, and it is not that I would say one or the other is ready or unready. We are trying together to get the right answer.
LORD REA: My Lords, would it be too much to ask the noble Earl whether the Government look with favour rather than disfavour on this proposal, and that they are not turning it down?
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I am afraid that at this moment I cannot give any further indication. I am sorry.

DISPOSAL OF KRUPP ASSETS
2.42 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, seeing that they were a party to the 1953 Mehlem Deconcentration Agreement under which Herr Alfried Krupp von Bohlen and Halbach undertook never again to engage in the iron and steel industries except in a very minor specified way in his Widia works, and to sell an estimated 74 per cent. of his steel, iron and coal producing assets within five years, they can say when approximately they will be in a position to give a statement showing in detail the terms of the
558
1959 application made by Herr Krupp to the Mixed Committee for an extension of time in which to sell the aforesaid assets, and the Committee's reasons in detail for granting an extension up to January 31, 1961.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE): My Lords, I notice that the noble Viscount has phrased his Question today in a different way, and take it that his object is to ascertain whether or not the Mixed Committee can, in effect, overrule the policy of Her Majesty's Government in relation to the deconcentration agreement of 1953. As I have on more than one occasion informed your Lordships, the Mixed Committee which was set up by the procedure agreed by the four signatory Governments has no other function than to allow or to disallow an extension of time within which the assets of Herr Krupp may be disposed of. As regards a statement on the terms of Herr Krupp's application and the reasons for granting the extension, I hope that a report from the Mixed Committee will shortly be made available to the four Governments. As your Lordships know, the decision to make such a report public does not rest with Her Majesty's Government alone.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Marquess for his Answer. Is he aware that I framed my Question in somewhat different form in the hopes that at least he might give me a favourable Answer to it? With regard to the second part of his Answer, may I ask him this question? Is the position that when the Committee reports to the Governments, although the British Government may be anxious to give to Parliament the report of the Committee, it will still he subject to the assent and consent of the other Governments, including Dr. Adenauer and the United States Government? If that is so, will the Government press very vigorously that their view, that the report should be submitted to Parliament, should be adopted?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, what the noble Viscount said as regards the position if and when a report is submitted is perfectly correct. I can assure your Lordships that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is fully aware of the interest

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that has been taken by your Lordships in this matter and of the views that have been expressed in your Lordships' House; and of course he will bear these facts in mind in considering the report if and when it is received.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, may we have an assurance from the noble Marquess that when the report is available Her Majesty's Government will press the other three Governments that the report be made public? This is the second period of grace that has been granted. It will be possible for the Committee to go on granting further extensions. The Committee is not a supranational authority. Is it not right that Parliament should be told the reasons why the full implementation of Law 27 is being put in suspense?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I tried to explain, in my reply to Lord Elibank's question, that of course my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary will take these views into consideration; but as I have said all along, it would be improper for me to make a unilateral declaration on this matter. It is something which concerns four Governments. As we have been reminded (I think it was by the noble Lord, Lord Conesford), we cannot in any way alter the situation. We have put our hands to an international agreement and we must abide by the terms of that international agreement.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, the only unilateral action I am asking for is that Her Majesty's Government will go to her colleagues and recommend the publication of this report. I can see no reason why Her Majesty's Government should not make such a concession publicly now.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I do not want to appear difficult and obstinate over this matter, but we have not yet received the report: the report is not yet in existence, and in those circumstances I am really not prepared to give such an assurance.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, is it possible for Her Majesty's Government to make sonic agreement that makes it impossible for them to yield to the sovereign power of Parliament?
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, the noble Marquess has dealt with great courtesy with all my questions on this subject. Might I ask this further question? In order to obviate further questions from time to time, would he be prepared to make a statement on the subject when this report comes into their hands?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I do not want to give a snap answer to that question. I think, on the face of it, the suggestion is a reasonable one, but I should like time to consider it and to discuss it with my right honourable friend.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, is the noble Marquess not aware that there is a growing feeling in the country that the Government are not being quite firm enough in these matters? That has been brought out again with the controversy about Spanish-German arrangements. I hope that in this matter, at any rate, our Parliament can be assured that the Government will be firm in seeing the agreement is properly carried out.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: With great respect to the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition, this is at the moment not a question of Her Majesty's Government; this is a question of the Mixed Committee.
LORD BIRDWOOD: My Lords, would the noble Marquess think it is appropriate, in consideration of this question, to note that in fact Herr Krupp made very determined efforts for a period of five years, from 1952 to 1957, to sell the greater part of his interests—that is the Rheinhausen works—to an American concern, but that the attitude of the State Department was not helpful and in fact negotiations broke down due to that attitude?
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: He could give it away, could he not?

STREET OFFENCES ACT PROSECUTIONS
2.48 p.m.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government—

(1) how many women have been convicted of offences under the Street Offences Act;

(2) in how many such cases sentences of imprisonment have been imposed; and

(3) what is the length of any sentences of imprisonment imposed.]

EARL BATHURST: My Lords, between August 16 and December 31, 1959, there were 889 convictions of offences under Section 1 (1) of the Street Offences Act; that is, one-tenth of the number for the same period in 1958. In 63 cases, sentences of imprisonment were imposed, of which 27 were for periods of one month or less; 19 for periods of more than one month but not more than two months, and 17 for periods of more than two and up to three months.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for his Answer, and congratulating him on the skill with which he has emptied the streets without filling the gaols, I should like to ask whether he is aware that young girls are now employed to stand in the street outside clubs and cafés frequented by prostitutes in order to invite custom to these places, and whether Her Majesty's Government propose to introduce similar legislation to deal with this second-hand form of prostitution?
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I do not think the supplementary of the noble Lady is really to do with the first Question she asked, but I am quite sure that my right honourable friend also has access to the Sunday newspapers.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, might I ask the noble Earl whether he would explore other sources of information, besides the Sunday newspapers, by which he might be better informed?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, in view of the large number of speakers in the debate this afternoon it has been arranged that dinner will be available in the restaurant; but it would be a great help if noble Lords who wish to dine would inform the restaurant by four o'clock.

CHARITIES BILL [H.L.]
2.50 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, it gives me great pleasure to move the Second Reading of this comprehensive measure which is among those which my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has prepared during his tenure of that office. It brings up to date the Statute Law relating to charities. It is right that I should pay a tribute to the interest and to the labours of those noble Lords who have contributed to its conception. It was in 1949 that the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, introduced a debate calling attention to the need for the encouragement of voluntary action to promote social progress. This had been preceded by a book published by the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge; and both drew attention to the fundamental problem "What is charity to do when its traditional objects have been overtaken by the statutory services of the Welfare State?"
Early the following year, a Committee under the Chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, began the work of considering the changes in the law and practice (except as regards taxation) relating to charitable trusts in England and Wales which would be necessary to enable the maximum benefit to the community to be derived from them; and I must again express the appreciation of Her Majesty's Government on the speed and clarity with which the noble Lord and his colleagues disentangled the complicated elements in the situation and laid before us a series of precise recommendations, in the Summer of 1952. A year later the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, initiated a debate on the Report; and what was said then proved

563
helpful to the Government in framing the policy set out in a White Paper issued in 1955. In May, 1959, Lord Nathan again performed a signal service in initiating a debate on the White Paper, in the course of which I was able to give an outline of some features of the legislation which was in preparation by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, and committed myself to a modest prophecy, which now turns out to have been inspired, that this Session of Parliament would see the introduction of the Bill.
Besides being a measure of consolidation and Statute Law revision, the Bill's primary purpose, while preserving what is valuable in the existing system, is to introduce a number of reforms to assist charity to perform its due function in the modern Welfare State. It has four main aims: first, to modernise the machinery of administration of charity law; secondly, to establish a statutory foundation for voluntary co-operation between charity and the statutory welfare services on a basis of equality and partnership; thirdly, to establish a central register of charities, and fourthly, to extend and specify the conditions which must be satisfied before the purposes of a charitable trust can be altered, by what is known as a cy-près scheme. I will try to explain this expression to your Lordships later.
The years spent on preparation of the Bill have been necessary and well spent. It now embodies almost the whole of the Statute Law (apart from ecclesiastical law) relating to charitable trusts from the 16th century to 1958. In addition we are taking this opportunity to repeal the law of mortmain, an anachronism dating from feudal times whose original purpose has been lost. This prohibition on holding land without Royal licence now applies only to a capricious selection of corporations, and is combined with a prohibition on death-bed bequests of land to charity.
The abolition of these restrictions on devises of land to charity was recommended by the Nathan Committee; and the total abolition of the law of mortmain enables another vast clearance to be made of obsolete Statutes, which will be found in Part II of the Seventh Schedule to the Bill, and go back to the eighteenth year of the reign of King Edward I. All practitioners in the law
564
of real property will, I hope, welcome the removal of what has often proved to be a trap.
The Bill goes far to meet the recommendation of the Nathan Committee that the Statute Law should be incorporated in a single intelligible Statute. It has been a matter of the greatest delicacy and complexity to introduce reforms envisaged in the White Paper into a corpus of law which is founded less upon Statute than upon the principles evolved over the centuries by courts of equity and embodied in case law. It has frequently been difficult to discover what the law is; and much of the detailed provision regarding charities in the old Statutes has been found to have been superseded by enactments relating more generally to the law of property without the older provisions being repealed. The Fifth Schedule makes a clearance of such measures which now appear to have no effect.
Before turning to the details of the Bill, let me mention a few general matters. In the first place, this Bill touches at certain points on Crown interests and prerogative, and I have it in command from Her Majesty to acquaint you that She is graciously pleased to place Her interests and prerogative at the disposal of Parliament so far as this Bill may affect them. Next, this Bill does not deal with the powers of investment of charity trustees. The Government have put forward a proposal for amending the general law on trustee investments, and, as has already been announced in another place, the Government intend to introduce legislation early next Session. There is therefore no question of separate legislation on investment by charity trustees only.
Where the Bill deals with the general law of charity and the powers of the courts, it applies to charities of every kind. Further, all the enabling powers of the Charity Commissioners and the Ministry of Education will be available to all charities on request. The Commissioners' powers of inquiry and supervision, and the provisions for registration, however, are applicable in full only to charities having a permanent endowment. They apply only in part to charities without a permanent endowment, and not at all to the exempt charities listed in the Second Schedule,

565
for which, generally speaking, there are other statutory provisions for supervision.
The concept of the "mixed" charity, that is, one which is partly permanently endowed and partly supported by contributions, has caused much difficulty to lawyers in the past, but will in future cease to have any legal significance. Nearly all the provisions of the Bill extend to England and Wales only; the law of charity in Scotland is different. Clause 46 enables the Parliament of Northern Ireland to enact parallel legislation.
I now turn to the four main aims of the Bill to which I have already referred. In seeking to modernise the administration of the law of charities, the underlying object of the Bill is to ensure that charity in the future, as in the past, should remain free from political pressure and yet achieve adequate relations with the services which are supported by public funds and for which Ministers are responsible. Much thought has been given to the proper balance between ministerial control and responsibility for the Charity Commission and on the other hand the maintenance of their independence as, in part, a quasi-judicial body.
The plan put forward in the Bill is that the Home Secretary should be responsible for the appointment and removal of the Commissioners, who will be senior civil servants. He will not control their activities, but will receive an annual report from them and lay it before Parliament where it can be debated. He will make regulations and other statutory instruments affecting their work and will be responsible for the Vote. The Commissioners will have the functions of encouraging good administration, advising and assisting trustees, and investigating and checking abuses. These functions have in practice been exercised for many years but are now for the first time set out in the Statute in Clause 1 (3). Further, Clause 1 (4) makes it clear that the general object of the Commissioners' action in any individual case will be to promote the purpose of that particular charity. The trustees remain wholly and solely responsible for the administration of a charity; and the Commissioners have no power to administer a charity
566
themselves.
These are the main principles governing the activities of the Charity Commission. The Home Secretary intends that it should be re-equipped for its new tasks. It will be strengthened by the addition of an administrative element, and this will help to bring its work into relation with that of the welfare services administered by other Departments. The Government were much assisted in framing their proposals by the contributions of noble Lords to the debate on the White Paper last May. Apprehension was then expressed that charities might be subjected to interference by local authorities, but it will be seen from Clauses 10 to 12 that local authorities are given no compulsory powers. They are not empowered to review or intervene in the affairs of charities without the trustees' consent. Where a local authority carries out a review, and after consulting the trustees forwards recommendations to the Charity Commissioners, these recommendations will of course be considered; but it will remain the responsibility of the trustees to decide whether or not they will make an application to the Commissioners. Clause 12 gives statutory authority for consultation and co-operation between charity trustees and their fellows, and between charities and local authority services at all levels from field worker upwards, and authorises the exchange of information for this purpose.
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary and I have reason to hope that these proposals will command a wide measure of agreement among local authorities and organised charity and will be accepted as a lasting contribution to the future development of voluntary service in the modern State. The voluntary and statutory services in the same field have to learn to live and work together. In very many places this is already the case; the purpose of these clauses is to remove the last obstacles, the last suspicions, the last argument that Parliament does not approve co-operation.
Clauses 4 and 5, which contain quite new provisions, provide for the establishment of a central register of charities. No such register at present exists, and its absence has meant that the fullest use may not be made of charitable

567
resources or they may be applied so as to overlap or duplicate other provision. It is thought that there may be 150,000 charities to register. New charities will be registrable from the commencement of the Bill. The registration of already existing charities will be undertaken by stages and may not be completed, perhaps, in less than five years. Charities which are not required to register may nevertheless be allowed to do so on application. The effect of placing an institution on the register of charities will be that it is conclusively presumed to be a charity unless, and until, steps are taken to appeal to the High Court. Any person affected may object to the inclusion of a charity in the register; and the power of the Commissioners to determine charitable status will remove the uncertainty and danger of litigation which often causes anxiety to charity trustees.
It is obviously necessary—and I hope that all your Lordships will agree—that all Departments of Government should take the same view of claims to charitable status. Inclusion in the register will afford evidence of eligibility for tax relief as a charity, and provision is made in Clause 9 for consultation between the Commissioners, the Inland Revenue and local authorities so as to ensure that institutions which have hitherto been accepted as charities for fiscal purposes will be placed on the central register; and that future cases of doubt will be resolved, so far as possible, by interdepartmental agreement rather than by involving the claimant in expensive litigation. Ephemeral and insignificant charities will not be required to register. There is a power to exempt classes of charity by regulations from the registration requirements, and it is intended that this should be used freely to avoid registration which is, for instance, duplicated elsewhere or unnecessary for other reasons. Thus, consideration is being given to exceptions for the working funds of churches and the large number of small religious funds they administer, which are of denominational interest only. I understand that informal discussions have already begun with a view to specifying the funds in question in a degree of detail which is impossible in the Bill but can, it is intended, be effected by Statutory Instrument so as to leave
568
no doubt what is to be registered and what is excepted. I hope that in this way we shall meet the fears expressed by the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Chelmsford in our debate last May.
The next Part of the Bill deals with the assistance given to and supervision over charities by the Court and by the Charity Commissioners and the Ministry of Education. I referred earlier to what is known as the doctrine which is applicable; and under this doctrine the Court may alter the purposes of a trust in certain circumstances. The most important change in the law in this part of the Bill is effected by Clause 13, which specifies the circumstances, short of absolute failure of a trust, which must in future be satisfied before the purposes of a charity can be altered. As my noble and learned friend, Lord Simonds, said in our last debate, there is seldom any difficulty in finding suitable new purposes once it has been decided that a scheme is necessary: and the Bill does not attempt to regulate this matter. The power of the Court to make a scheme altering the trusts of a charity is already unlimited, but the circumstances which are at present required to exist before the Court can exercise its powers are already too circumscribed by the existing law. The clause, in addition to specifying the circumstances, adds to their number. For example, it w ill in future be open to the court to make a scheme cy près in order to amalgamate the funds of two charities which can be more effectively used in conjunction with each other. The powers conferred by this clause on the court are conferred equally on the Commissioners and the Ministry of Education by virtue of Clause 17.
I should like to make it perfectly clear that the Government are conscious that the success of this Bill will depend on its acceptability to charity and those concerned with the law and the machinery affecting charitable trusts. It has been the desire of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary that at all stages our proposals should be fully discussed with those concerned. And we have received and shall, I hope, continue to receive, both from your Lordships and from other sources, comments of great assistance in producing a workable Bill. In particular, we have received comments from Her Majesty's Judges of the

569
Chancery Division of the High Court on the clauses affecting the powers of the Court, and means will doubtless be found of improving them in Committee. We also propose, on the Judges' advice, to amend Clause 21 so that schemes for common investment funds may be made by the Court.
Your Lordships may have noticed that Clause 17 (6) contains an exceptional power to make a scheme without application by the trustees but on a reference by the Home Secretary. It may perhaps forestall criticisms which may have occurred to your Lordships if I also reveal that we are considering whether it is possible to narrow this subsection so as to confine it as strictly as may be to those very exceptional cases where trustees plainly default in their duty to apply. There has also been criticism of Clauses 6 (1) and 19 (1) on the ground that they appear to go further than the Government intend. I gladly give the undertaking that they will be reexamined.
Clauses 14 and 18, of which the latter re-enacts part of the Charitable Trusts Act, 1853, deal with those cases where the court has no jurisdiction to make a cy-près scheme because its effect would be to alter a Royal Charter or Act of Parliament. It is often an historical accident whether the instrument regulating a charity is a trust deed, a Charter or an Act of Parliament. But the practical consequences when it comes to securing an alteration of the trust vary considerably and in some cases cause great concern and expense to the charity. These clauses provide machinery whereby the desired relief can be obtained without cost to the charity. Moreover, since it will be ordinarily unnecessary to promote a Private Bill when the same results can be achieved by a Parliamentary scheme, free of cost, the expenditure of charity funds on a Bill is prohibited without the leave of the court or the Commissioners.
Clause 19, to which I referred a moment ago, is a new provision which enables the Commissioners to act in an emergency for the protection of charity property. In most cases the only action now open to the Commissioners or Minister after holding an inquiry is to report the case to the Attorney-General. It may well happen that in the interval
570
between the discovery of misfeasance and the launching of Chancery proceedings, the charity assets suffer further loss. Certain powers to act in such an emergency have already been conferred on the Charity Commissioners in relation to charities for the relief of distress arising from the war and to charities for the benefit of disabled persons. These powers have proved so useful that it is now proposed, under subsection (1), to apply the principle to all charities made subject to inquiry. But, as I say, I am very ready to listen to any points that may be raised in this regard during the debate.
My Lords, I have already referred to Clause 21, which relates to common investment schemes, and I need only add that this rather lengthy clause follows what is now settled practice for schemes of this sort, which may be made where two or more charities delegate to joint nominees the management of their common funds. If charities so desire, their common funds can be managed by the Official Custodian, with the advice of a panel of investment advisers, in the same way as the Public Trustee manages private trust funds in his custody. Clause 26 re-enacts the Charitable Trusts (Recovery) Act, 1891; and since the policy of redeeming small annual charges on land has been applied with great advantage to tithe and land tax, it is thought that the time has come to apply it to charity rent-charges also. Clause 27 consolidates what is believed to be the existing law regarding the institution of charity proceedings. The form of proceedings is left to be regulated by the rules of the court.
I would draw your Lordships' attention to new arrangements regarding appeals to the Court. It was one of the principal objects of the first Charitable Trusts Act, as it is of this Bill, to prevent charity money from being spent not for the charity purposes, but on the costs of litigation, and an administrative machine was provided to deal, free of charge, with non-contentious charity business. In order to protect charities from being drawn into legal proceedings instigated by other parties the leave of the Charity Commissioners was required before any proceedings regarding a charity could be instituted by anyone other than the Attorney General. To modern ideas,

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however, it seems strange that an administrative body can finally bar access to the courts, without any appeal or redress, unless the applicant can persuade the Attorney General to proceed ex officio. The Bill therefore provides that proceedings in the Chancery Division may be commenced either with the leave of the Commissioners or—and this is new—with the leave of a Judge. The Court will thus, in the last resort, decide whether or not proceedings are justified.
It will, I hope, be a source of gratification to the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel—and may I at this stage take the privilege of an old friend and say how delighted everyone in the House is to see him in his place to-day?—to see that steps have been taken in Clause 30 to protect the expression "common good" fund or trust, so as to encourage the formation of such funds by giving some warranty of their object and good faith. I think it is fair to describe the remainder of the Bill as re-enactment or machinery and I need not detain your Lordships with detailed explanation, except perhaps as regards the Second Schedule, "Exempt Charities."
Section 62 of the Charitable Trusts Act, 1853, provided that that Act should not extend to certain charities specifically named there—that is, the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, London and Durham, together with their colleges and halls except as regards London; Queen Anne's Bounty, now the Church Commissioners, and the British Museum. The Act of 1855 added Winchester and Eton, which were subject to other enactments. Private Acts have added nearly all modern universities. A very few other institutions have been exempted by Public Act or Church Measure. These are, in the main, subject to other forms of Parliamentary control or supervision. These existing statutory exemptions are, therefore, carried forward into this Bill, and in order to secure consistency it is intended to make it possible for all present and future universities to attain the same exemption. The Bill accordingly provides, as recommended by the Committee presided over by the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, for additions to the list of exempt universities to be made by Order in Council.
An exempt charity, like all other charities, can apply to the Commis-
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sioners or the Minister of Education for the exercise of their enabling powers under the Bill (some of them had a similar right under Section 14 of the Charitable Trusts Act, 1869), but none of the powers of the Commissioners or Minister is made exercisable in relation to an exempt charity except at the request of that charity. There are, of course, many other charities, notably those controlled by Government Departments, where registration and supervision by the Charity Commissioners may be superfluous, and it is proposed to deal with these by administrative order or regulations, excepting them from the provisions relating to registration, submission of accounts, and land transaction control.
My Lords, may I say again, in concluding my remarks, that we have taken careful account of what has been said in the informal consultations before and during the preparation of the Bill. The advice of the National Council of Social Service, to mention only one important voluntary organisation, has been of the greatest assistance in producing a measure which will, we hope, command a wide measure of acceptance. I need hardly tell your Lordships that I shall listen with the greatest attention to everything that may be said in the course of debate, and will consider carefully, along with the Home Secretary, details which may be capable of improvement, in the hope that the Bill, when it reaches the Statute Book, will receive recognition as an outstanding landmark in the history of voluntary action in this country. My Lords, I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
3.24 p.m.
LORD NATHAN: My Lords, everyone in your Lordships' House is indebted to the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack for the clarity and, having regard to the complexity of the subject, the brevity with which he has introduced the Second Reading of this Bill. I personally stand here to-day in what might be called a double capacity. In the first place, I am the spokesman for my noble friends upon these Benches in saying that they regard this Bill as in no sense a Party measure: they welcome it and will support its Second Reading, whilst of course making all proper reservations as regards the Committee stage.

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So much I say on behalf of my noble friends. However, I have a special, peculiar interest in this Bill—at least an avuncular, and perhaps even a parental, interest. Indeed, this debate marks a great occasion for myself and for the members of the Committee, or those who survive, who for so many months devoted their time and energies to the work of the Committee, so familiar to your Lordships—and all that nearly a decade ago. It has been worth waiting all that time for this Bill.
I hope to say something in a moment about the Bill itself, but before I come to that I should like to refer to a particular point which has given me, and I am sure has given your Lordships, great satisfaction. Your Lordships will appreciate that this Bill is a result of an immense clearance operation that was necessary in order to achieve the objectives which my Committee set out in their final paragraph to which the noble and learned Viscount has referred. We said:
"… that the present law, with the changes we propose, should be simplified and reenacted as a single, short, intelligible Statute".
Now in the course of surveying the existing law, we were very much struck—I might say we were appalled—by the clutter of the Charitable Trusts and other Statutes with which trustees had to contend. It was a tangle of Statutes scattered over many centuries: a tangle of Statutes which would perhaps be better described as a jungle. Those responsible for drafting this Bill had to hack their way through that jungle and cut down the dead wood, branch by branch, trunk by trunk, thicket by thicket. The results of their labours are embodied in the Fifth and Seventh Schedules to this Bill, "Enactments Repealed as Obsolete", and "Enactments Repealed as Superseded".
The repealed enactments—12 of the 64 pages; about 20 per cent. of the whole of this Bill—go back, as the noble and learned Viscount has reminded us, to the reign of Henry VIII and, for the mortmain repeals, to Edward I—Edward I, 1272 to 1307. Nearly 80 enactments, not to speak of Church Assembly Measures and Orders in Council, are affected and over 90 relating to mortmain. This must have been a stupendous undertaking—even more stupendous than I had ever believed it
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to be. Indeed, it largely explains the time taken to produce the Bill; and I must, for myself, confess to a sense of contrition in having, on more than one occasion, criticised the Government for what seemed an undue delay.
To dwell on this clearance operation is to dwell on negative results. I turn to the Bill itself. I said that what my Committee looked for was, "a single, short, intelligible Statute", and here it is—or, rather, here it will be when Parliament has expressed its will. It is a single instrument; it is short; it is intelligible. I feel sure that I speak not only for myself when I say that this is a superb piece of drafting; and for my part I should wish to congratulate Parliamentary Counsel on having succeeded so well in a most formidable task. They have carried out our objectives admirably.
Before I come to the actual contents of the Bill, there is one matter to which I should refer, and to which I think no reference was made by the noble and learned Viscount upon the Woolsack, although it was mentioned in our earlier debates. It is a curious point, but I think one of some importance. This is the Charities Bill, yet nowhere is "charity" defined. Clause 44 of the Bill, the main definition clause, states that
"'Charity' means any institution … which is established for charitable purposes and is subject to the control of the High Court in the exercise of the court's jurisdiction with respect to charities".
But in Clause 45, "charitable purposes" are defined as
"purposes which are exclusively charitable according to the law of England and Wales".
In other words, the Bill leaves us exactly where we were. It may be—I have heard distinguished lawyers argue the point—that to define now would alter the content of charity and might disturb old decisions and modern decisions, too. I suppose I must accept the fact that in this regard we had better leave matters as they are.
I come now to the several Parts of the Bill, and with your Lordships' permission, I will comment briefly on three of the most important Parts—Parts I, II and III. I take Part I last, because I think that this is more convenient to the argument which I wish to address to your Lordships. Therefore, I come first

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to Part II, which relates to
"… inquiry into, making known and co-ordinating charitable activities,"
including the provision for a central register of charities. Thus the Bill here gives effect to one of the three or four recommendations to which my Committee attached the most importance. I regard a central register as constituting an immense step forward in the direction of enabling the public to derive the maximum benefit from charitable trusts, which, it must not be forgotten, by their very nature have been created for the benefit of the public. A charitable trust, or a foundation, as it is now ordinarily called in the case of more important charitable trusts, is not a private institution: it is a public institution; and that is so as a matter of fact as well as a matter of law. It is right, therefore, that the public should have an opportunity of knowing what these charities stand for, what service they can render.
It must be recognised, however, that a comprehensive, up-to-date register will be achieved only on certain conditions. The first is that the community must be determined to have this register and to see that it is maintained. Trustees, whether compelled by their own realisation of the value of the register or by public opinion, must come forward readily to register their trusts. This is the first, the essential, prerequisite of success. The second necessary condition is that the register must be usable. It must have a purpose, and a purpose capable of being fulfilled. It must be capable of throwing up not only the primary but also the secondary objects of trusts and their classes of beneficiaries and beneficial areas. This is a large undertaking of an administrative character, the importance and difficulty of which must not be underrated. It will take time. But if it can be done, it should be done. It is essential, if the register is to fulfil this purpose.
I am not at all clear that in certain of its aspects in regard to registration this Bill goes quite far enough. Clause 4 (1) provides that the register shall include
"such particulars as the Commissioners may from time to time determine. …"
This is not very reassuring. Clause 10 (1) is a little more helpful. It provides that local authorities
"may maintain an index of local charities or of any class of local charities"
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in their area. This implies, at any rate, that the register is to be capable of throwing up local charities, county by county, borough by borough and class by class.
The third necessary condition is that no disincentive to registration should be created, that nothing should be done to discourage trustees from registering their trusts. It is here that I have some reservations on Clause 9. The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack referred with some particularity to Clause 9 and, as I understood him, indicated that the provisions of that clause would be receiving further consideration. As I think that this is a matter for Committee stage, rather than for Second Reading, I leave it there, whilst reserving my position by saying that it needs further consideration and, perhaps, amendment. My own opinion is that if we can look forward to a climate of opinion in which trustees will not fail to come forward to register, then we shall get a really sensitive and detailed classification of registered trusts, with the result that the registration will become a potentially powerful instrument for strengthening the whole voluntary movement in this country. I regard the central register as the essential key.
In Part III of the Bill we reach the most outstanding, and perhaps the most difficult, problem of all—the problem of relaxing the cy-près doctrine. Clause 13 reflects what was proposed in the White Paper, and as that reflected what my Committee had suggested, I am well satisfied. This will mean that the conditions to be fulfilled before the purposes of a trust may be changed will be much wider than they have been hitherto, and it should thus be possible to keep charitable trust purposes in tune with public needs in the changing times. I say that it should be possible to do so, because here again a reality will not be made of this new key provision unless trustees play their part. The onus is on them to initiate change. My Committee took the view that while the duty of initiating and putting forward the scheme lay primarily with trustees, in default of their moving local authorities, or the central authorities, should be empowered to take the initiative. The recommendation regarding local authority initiative was not accepted in the White Paper, but I am glad to see that our point of view has

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been met in part by the declaration in Clause 13 (4) that:
"… a trust for charitable purposes places a trustee under a duty, where the case permits and requires the property or some part of it to be applied cy-près to secure its effective use for charity by taking steps to enable it to be so applied."
That provision is most valuable. So is the provision in Clause 17, that the Secretary of State may refer to the Commissioners any case which seems to him for special reasons to require the making of a scheme. This is no doubt only a reserve clause, and the power it confers would and should be resorted to only in exceptional cases; but taken together, these two provisions should go far to give trustees some incentive to keep their trust purposes under constant review and to apply for a scheme if necessary. I understand from the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack that he is considering some modification of the provision with regard to the Secretary of State's powers, but I hope he will not modify them too much.
There are two other provisions to which the noble and learned Viscount referred and which I wish to mention—namely, Clauses 21 and 30. Clause 21 empowers the Commissioners on the application of any two or more charities to provide for the establishment of common investment funds. I was interested in what the Lord Chancellor said as to the authority for this being vested in a Judge of the Chancery Division. That is a proposal which I understand is very much in line with the authority of the Judges of the Chancery Division now in relation to the Variation of Trusts Act and matters of that kind, and it will be interesting to see the more detailed proposals which the noble and learned Viscount brings forward at the appropriate time.
Clause 30 protects the expression "common good". I join (as I am sure we all do) with the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack in saying to the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel, now in his place on the Benches he has adorned for so long, how glad I am to see him here to-day. I take special satisfaction in that, because it was he who introduced the original Motion as a result of which all this emerges; it was he who introduced the debate some time later on my Committee's Report;
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and it was he who from the beginning held firm to the conception of "common good". I am certain it is a great satisfaction to the noble Viscount to-day, as it is to all of us, to see that particulars as to that are now to be embodied in a Statute of the Realm.
I turn now to Part I, dealing with central authorities. All these vital new provisions, in particular those for a central register, for a closer, better articulated relationship between charitable trusts and public bodies, and above all for the relaxing of the conditions in which the purposes of a trust may be changed, betoken a much more lively, much more dynamic conception of the functions of charitable trusts than that which has reigned heretofore. What, as a consequence, ought the function of the Charity Commission to be? And how, in turn, should the Commission be constituted? The answer turns very largely on the question of initiative. My Committee, as I have said, proposed that, while the duty of taking the initiative in calling for changes in the purposes of a trust lay primarily with the trustees, the Charity Commission should have a reserve power itself to take the initiative.
We accordingly proposed three changes: first, that there should be a Minister, with strictly limited powers, responsible for representing the views of the Commissioners in Parliament; secondly, that the Commission should be reconstituted and should consist of a small number of men and women of standing and experience in public and charitable affairs, instead of, as at present, of lawyers; and thirdly, that the new Commission should have power to set up an advisory council. The Bill has taken a different line on the question of initiative, and I say, frankly, that I think, on balance, that it must be accepted as being more in accordance with the public view on this difficult matter. The Bill has given the Commission no power of initiative, but has given the Minister a reserve power. I accept that.
But I think the proposals regarding the Commission have swung too far away from those proposed by my Committee and, moreover, are out of line with the new powers proposed in the Bill. Only our proposal that there should be a Minister, with strictly limited powers, is accepted. The Com-

579
mission is to remain very much as before, except that one of the Commissioners need no longer be a lawyer. I have no hard feelings for lawyers (how could I, of all people?) but I must confess that I think that some mixture of lawyers and laymen is good in a Commission of this kind. As I say, the Commission is to remain very much as before, except that two only, instead of three, will be lawyers. But of the advisory council there is not a word. I feel that, particularly if the Commission is to be constituted as now proposed, it should be enabled to take a wider view of social trends and social needs as a whole, and ought therefore to have an advisory body at hand. The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack may perhaps say that technically there is no need in the Bill to provide for such a body, and I may therefore be drawing the wrong conclusion from there being no provision in the Bill for setting up such a body. But I would urge strongly the need for such a body, in order to give advice and guidance to the reconstituted Commission as now proposed, and I hope that we may hear from the Government before the Second Reading is concluded what their view on this matter is.
I shall end as I began, with praise for the Bill as a whole. When it becomes law it will be a landmark in the long, history of the law relating to charitable trusts, and will, by its very completeness, compactness and clarity, constitute a challenge to trustees and to the whole voluntary movement. Here at last is Charity's Charter.
3.47 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, as one of the Peers who spoke when my noble friend Lord Samuel brought in his Motion ten or eleven years ago, I should like to say a few words about the Bill which is before your Lordships' House to-day. It is a Bill which I think all of us who have studied the charity question must welcome, because, as has been said, it tidies up the muddling laws relating to charities on which we have been working for so long. There are one or two comments I should like to make before referring to the Bill itself. Charity, of course, goes back a long way, to the time before the State began to take any interest in the welfare of the individual. Therefore people have inquired why it
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is necessary for charity to play a part in the affairs of the country now that so much is done by the Government and we have in being what is called the Welfare State. That has never seemed to me to be a right point of view. There has always appeared to me to be a great deal of scope for the voluntary organisations and charities which have that flexibility behind them that no official or statutory body can have. That is why I am pleased that the charity trusts continue to exist; and I am sure that more will be made in time.
I was pleased to hear the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack say that Parliament is giving final approval to the voluntary bodies, and, that the voluntary bodies can co-operate with statutory bodies. I am sure that those who are interested in voluntary organisations are most grateful. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, when he referred to what his Report recommended for the Charity Commissioners. I think the body which he suggested would have been a more satisfactory one than the body which now appears in the Bill. It would have been quite possible, with the five or nine people he mentioned, for one or two to be members of the legal profession. I think that that would have been essential, and it is a very good point. But I am not at all sure it is necessary that the Commission should be so small, particularly when two-thirds of a total of three are to be barristers or solicitors. It does not leave much scope for anybody outside.
I am sorry, too, that the advice of the Council has been dispensed with. One would have thought that that was an extremely important body. Various charitable trusts with which I am connected find the advice and work of the Council is of great value to their work, and it helps a great deal in making up their minds what they should do. The noble Lord suggested that it might be possible to incorporate the Council later on, but I will not press that point any more at present. There is a certain danger that the members of the Charity Commission being so few, and being civil servants, they might try by some means or other to get some of the bigger charitable trusts to carry out investigations and inquiries, to make reports, or to do a number of things like that which should really be done by the State or by

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the Government itself. I am sure it was never the intention that the charitable trusts which we have now should be used to subsidise work which should be done by the central Government.
There is a fear, which I think is probably quite groundless, that the Secretary of State would attempt to influence some of the policies of the charitable trusts in the way in which the Secretary of State of the day wishes. I know that some bodies feel that that may be a possible danger. One can have no objection at all to the fact that charities can be investigated, if it is thought that their affairs are not being managed in the most efficient and proper way. The kind of thing I have in mind is that one found in the past that with certain charitable bodies far too high a proportion of their income was spent upon administration and not enough on the work for which the charity was intended. Some bodies are loath to spend the money which they have raised, and they tend to keep it as an investment trust or, as you might say, wait until a rainy day comes along, whereas I think the money should be spent freely and more money collected. If you have a good charity, then more money will come along.
There is nothing but good to be said for the establishment of the central register of charities, but there is one point I have had brought to my attention. I was approached by the Boy Scouts' Association, of which I regret to say I am not a member, and they told me that according to a judgment in the High Court given in 1932 each of their branches will need to register separately. According to my working out, that will mean that there will be about 11,000 or 12,000 different branches who need to register separately with the central register. If that is true, it will make an enormous amount of work for the 12,000-odd branches, and a great deal of work for the central register, too. I wonder whether it would be possible for a body like that to conk under the exempt charities, or whether it would be possible for the central office to register for the whole lot.
There are some doubts in my mind, but not very strong ones, about Clauses 10 to 12, which deal with the question of local authorities. Nothing but good can be gained from the proper co-operation of local authorities with
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voluntary and charitable bodies. But there does not seem to me—perhaps I misread the Bill—to be any protection against a local authority who wants to interfere improperly in the affairs of the charity. Although most local councils are good, one must confess that certain local authorities in the past have acted in an ultra vires fashion—as they possibly will in the future. One wonders whether there is enough protection in the Bill to see that they do not do that in the future. In the same way, the powers of the Commissioners in Clause 17 (6) to make a scheme for special reasons is just a little vague, and if it were not closely interpreted might again lead to events which one would not want to see occurring.
There is another point about which I am not quite clear. What would be the body who would advise charities upon certain of their regulations and rulings which have become out of date and no longer applicable? The point I am thinking of is this. If some people want to apply to enter homes, almshouses, et cetera, they must give particulars not only of what money they have themselves, but of what money their fathers had earned. That seems to me to have no bearing on whether they want to go into a home. A large number of people would not know what their fathers had earned if they were put in the witness box and examined upon oath. One finds that a number of these rules are relics from the past, and I hope it will be possible to get rid of a great many of them.
There are two points I should like to bring forward which are not applicable to the Bill. In the United States, if some individual wishes to give some present to a museum or collection, the money which it costs is free of tax. That has a bearing on charity, too, and I wonder whether it is possible—although I know this is a finance matter which I should not be talking about—to introduce something of that sort here? It is a fact that private individuals who give money to charity under covenant need to pay surtax, whereas boards of directors do not. I wonder whether that is not rather an unfair differentiation between the two, and whether one would not get more individuals giving money under covenant if that particular anomaly were removed.

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There is one final personal matter I should like to mention. I am sure that many schoolboys are glad to see that the Statute of Mortmain and quia emptores have gone. I was never quite sure what they meant, but I felt they were doing something good to protect the people against the powers of the Church. Although it is quite proper that they should have gone, I think one should say a word in sorrow at their passing.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, am I right in thinking that he has discovered a method by which a private individual can give money to a charity and reclaim surtax on it?
LORD AMULREE: No; I wish I had.
4.0 p.m.
LORD EVERSHED: My Lords, may I immediately set your Lordships' minds at rest in one respect? I have not in my mind this afternoon, as an old Chancery Judge, if I may so describe myself, to address your Lordships on the historically interesting, if erudite, topic of the law of charity, including the definition of "charity" to which the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, referred. I am venturing to speak this afternoon in another capacity, namely, as chairman of the Pilgrim Trust, and also on behalf and with the authority of a number of other like charitable foundations, including the Nuffield Foundation.
I wish to make it quite clear at once that all these charities for whom I am privileged to speak wholly support this Bill and the general idea which underlies it, including the particular provisions to which reference has already been made, provisions for registration, supplying accounts and information, and also the provisions for broadening the so-called cy-près rule and for reconstituting the Charity Commissioners. Those for whom I speak would not wish it to be thought for a moment by any of your Lordships that they consider that, because of their size or otherwise, they should be in any sense above or exempt from the general law relating to charitable trusts, still less that there was anything about their affairs which they at all wished to conceal.
But I must say on their behalf that these charities have been somewhat
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disturbed by the provisions and the possible application, as the clauses stand, or three clauses in the Bill, namely, Clauses 6 (1) and 17 (6), which confer wide powers on the Home Secretary, and also Clause 19 (1). On behalf of these charities again, I very much welcome what has fallen from the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack—namely, that he will consider further with a view to limiting them, the first two of these provisions, Clauses 6 (1) and 17 (6). The noble and learned Viscount will no doubt consider consequentially the terms of certain other clauses, Clause 17 (9) and 18 (6).
I shall not weary your Lordships by citing them, but your Lordships will recall that under Clause 17 (9), as the matter stands, the Home Secretary is given power to direct the Commissioners to exercise their jurisdiction under the clause, even in a case which the Commissioners may think should more properly be adjudicated by the Court. Misfeasance, abuse or misconduct on the part of trustees is, of course, one thing; but the language, I suggest, of Clause 19 (1), as it stands, covers a much wider area. It covers, for example, the case of what is described as "giving … excessive remuneration"—and I am not sure by what standard excessiveness is to be judged—even if authorised or required by the terms of the trust. Again I do not wish your Lordships to suppose for a moment that I am trying to conceal what any of these charities suppose is excessive remuneration being paid to any of their servants. I cite it as an example, and I leave Clause 19 there, for it is a matter of drafting, if I may say so, more proper to be considered at a later stage.
But more significant, in the view of those for whom I speak, is the width of the powers as they now stand, conferred upon the Home Secretary by Clause 6 (1) and 17 (6). May I say a word about 6 (1) (and what I say is equally applicable to the other clause); and I shall be brief, in view of what the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has already said about them. As your Lordships will recall, Clause 6 (1) says that the Commissioners
"if so directed by the Secretary of State shall, institute inquiries with regard to charities or a particular charity … either generally or for particular purposes."

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Those inquiries might obviously be of a very onerous character. They are not, on the face of the clause, limited to cases where any misfeasance or misconduct is suspected. The purposes, general or particular, are wholly unspecified and unlimited.
I have heard what the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, has said on this matter, and I do not wish to exaggerate it. But I do ask your Lordships: Is so wide a power right or necessary? We all know in these days that, in one way and another, pressure may be brought to bear on Ministers. I do not for a moment suggest that the holders of the office of Home Secretary, certainly not the present holder, would act irresponsibly in the matter. But one can think of cases of pressure worked up and brought to bear by some active body of people desirous that the funds of some charity might be applied or applied to a greater extent, in favour of some particular pet object of their own, overriding entirely the perfectly proper discretion of the trustees, and perhaps even the purpose of the founder of the trust. These wide powers are not hinted at in the Explanatory Memorandum which accompanies the Bill. In that Memorandum Clause 6 is described as merely re-enacting the Commissioners' existing powers. Nor are they hinted at in the Government's White Paper to which the noble and learned Viscount referred, paragraph 7 of which states:
"The Government agree with the general conclusion of the Committee that the existing powers of inquiry are wide enough."
Moreover, the powers appear to me to be in conflict with what the Committee themselves said. Without wearying your Lordships by many citations, may I refer to paragraph 156 of the Committee's Report:
"We have been particularly anxious to avoid making demands on trustees which would be irksome or considered inquisitorial."
And paragraph 374—and the noble and learned Viscount alluded to this in his speech this afternoon:
"Charity has always in this country been regarded as standing quite outside the realm of party politics, and it is, in our view, of the first importance that it should continue to be so regarded."
My Lords, I apologise for taking up time on this matter, but I have felt it right to say that the inferences and the poten-
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tialities of this novel power conferred upon the Home Secretary by the clauses as they stand appear to be a little disturbing, and are perhaps obvious enough. I repeat that on behalf of these charities I welcome what the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has said—namely, that he will consider the revision, and limitation perhaps, of their effect.
May I repeat, in conclusion, that the charities for whom I speak wholly support the general idea of this Bill and wish in no way to qualify the powers and the duties to be exercised by the Charity Commissioners, who will be, after all, a quasi-judicial body. In these days, unhappily, the ordinary individual can do little to support charity—if one may properly quote from the Collect for two days ago, "the very bond of peace and of all virtues". The trusts in these days, like those for whom I speak, many of recent origin, many the fruits of industry, perform, I hope and believe, a highly important public service in the Welfare State. The clauses to which I have ventured to allude, if left as they stand, contain, as I submit to your Lordships, the possibility, directly or indirectly, of the kind of pressure upon, or interference with, trustees in the performance of their duties which might seriously discourage benevolent men and women in the future from establishing such trusts, and might even discourage public-spirited persons from acting as trustees.
4.10 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I should like to begin by offering my congratulations to my noble friend Lord Nathan on the successful issue of his presiding over the Committee some ten years ago. I suppose the average time between the submission of a Report to the House and of the introduction of legislation to implement that Report is about seven years. But I appreciate that this has been a particularly difficult measure to implement, and I would not accuse the Government of being particularly lackadaisical on this occasion—I think they have done well to get a complicated measure of this sort before Parliament within the time available to them.
This is a great day for my noble friend and he is entitled to enjoy it. He spoke also for noble Lords on this side of the House in expressing our general support for the Bill, and we do indeed give our general support. But that in no

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sense means that we accept every part of this Bill, or even that we agree with my noble friend in some of the matters which he raised this afternoon or in the Report itself. The Bill is a non-Party Bill, and each of us not only is entitled, but has a duty, to examine the Bill closely and to put before the House any ideas he may have for the improvement of the Bill; and I would say that this House is at its best in dealing with a non-Party measure of this kind. I would say, therefore, that the Committee stage of this Bill is going to be of the greatest importance, because we may get general agreement as to the main principles of the Bill but, when we come down to the details of it, we shall find that there is a good deal that we want to discuss, to have amplified or even to amend.
Therefore, it is from that angle that I want to say a few words about particular aspects of the Bill. I do so with some diffidence because, unlike the noble and learned Lord, Lord Evershed, I speak with no authority of any kind on this question, not even legal authority. But, as has been said, this Bill is one which has been specifically designed for people like myself who have no legal understanding of these matters but can read; it is fairly clear (I think it is all the better for that) and it enables us to put forward our different ideas.
The first thing that strikes one—my noble friend has already referred to it—is that there is no definition in the Bill of "charity". Therefore I take it that the ordinary definition contained in the Statute of Charitable Uses of 1601 will still apply. I will, not at this stage but perhaps at a later stage, read out that definition to your Lordships. I think your Lordships will find that it is almost wholly obsolete, largely in unintelligible language, and relating to circumstances which certainly do not apply to-day. Moreover, superimposed upon this definition has been a multiplicity of legal decisions, not all of them consistent, which add to the difficulties of anyone who has to decide whether or not a particular matter is a charity. I do not suggest for one moment that it is difficult in all cases to decide what is a charity. It is like a good many things—you recognise a charity when you see it. But there are borderline cases, and
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I will refer to one or two in a moment. I think it would be helpful to have a clear, up-to-date definition of "charity".
I see that we are repealing the Statute of Mortmain. That was passed 300 years before the definition of "charity" in the Act of 1601, and I hope we shall not have to wait another 300 years before we come to the time when it is opportune to lay down a definition. In this matter I have had considerable support from a number of Judges and learned counsel, although I am bound to say that there is a conflict of view about the matter and no doubt there are an equal number of Judges who take the view that we ought to leave well alone. But I think it is right that this matter should be ventilated in Committee, and in due course I propose to put down, not my own attempt at a definition but that of somebody who is far more qualified to make the attempt—namely, Lord M'Naghten. Lord Sterndale said:
"I am unable to find any principle which will guide one evenly and safely through the tangle of the cases as to what is and what is not a charitable gift."
This has been supported by Mr. Justice Vaisey, who was the senior Judge of the Chancery Division, and by many others. I will not try to amplify that; I will leave it to the Committee stage.
But I should like to point out one or two absurdities which arise from the present definition and from the body of case law which has grown up over it—for instance, the present status of sport. Recreation in a particular locality is charitable; so are many of the types of physical recreation under the Recreational Charities Act, 1958. But amateur sport is not charity—well, I hope it is, in order to remain amateur. But under the definition of "charity" it is not. Again, an educational trust for the children of a certain town is charitable; a similar trust for the children of employees of a large firm operating in that town is not. I think we ought to attempt—at any rate, now that we are having a consolidated measure and laying down the law on charities for a long time to come—a definition which will be acceptable and which will remove many of the difficulties, complexities and contradictions that exist at the present time.

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The next is the cy-près doctrine. So far as I can see, the provisions of Clause 13 extending the powers of the Court to vary the purposes of a charity are satisfactory so far as they go. But in two respects I think that they do not go far enough. The first is that there is no power given to the Court to re-frame testamentary clauses that fail purely through imperfect drafting. In such a case, although the intention of the testator may be perfectly clear, the charitable trust becomes wholly void and invalid. This matter was considered in 1953 and 1954 when the Charitable Trusts (Validation) Act, 1954, was passed and it was put right in respect of all instruments made up to 1952. Parliament therefore recognised that it was right and equitable that these imperfect trusts should be rendered, so far as possible, practicable in order to comply with the wishes of a testator; but all imperfect trusts made after 1952 remain imperfect and are invalid. I believe it is suggested that, with the passing of the Act of 1954, testators and their legal advisers are put on notice that an imperfect trust cannot become valid. But I can see no reason why a Court should not have power to render valid a trust which is invalid purely for technical reasons, and thus comply with the wishes of the testator.
The second point, also in connection with the cy-près doctrine, is that there is no provision for dealing with surplus charitable funds no longer needed for their original purpose. There are a number of well known cases of that kind, the latest being the Gillingham bus disaster, in connection with which funds were collected to be used for the charitable purpose of helping the victims of the disaster and their next-of-kin. But it afterwards transpired that the bus company whose vehicle was responsible for the accident accepted full liability, and all the victims of that disaster were fully compensated; so that the fund was rendered unnecessary. There is no provision for dealing with a case of that kind. All that could be done there was to seek out the people who had made contributions to the fund and restore the money to them so far as it was possible to find them. But since the subscribers to this fund were people who had given very small sums of money, usually anonymously, that was impracticable
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and so these funds were treated as bona vacantia and paid into court. For all I know they are still there, probably earning interest but that is all. The money is of no benefit to anybody.
I feel that some provision should be included in the powers given to the Court to deal with the doctrine of cy-près enabling the Court to deal with cases of that kind or similar cases where the purpose of a charity was originally perfectly sound and good but where either people who are capable of benefiting by that charity no longer exist, or the purpose of the charity has been taken over by the State—as in the case of the building of a hospital, so that funds are no longer necessary for the purpose. Under the doctrine of cy près, I should also like the Court to have power to deal with a charity which exists solely for the purposes of remunerating those who are administering it. That is the kind of case to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Evershed, referred under the heading of excessive remuneration.
In my profession, but perhaps not in others, there is a standard of remuneration. We are subject to a person called the taxing master, who has the power to settle what is right and proper in the case of solicitors' remuneration. But I have heard of charities of the kind I have mentioned. I heard of one to-day which is administered solely for the purpose of the administrators of that charity themselves. They pay themselves a handsome fee for the work of administering it, and beyond that nobody seems to benefit. That fund is slowly accumulating. I do not know whether the Bill contains any power on the part of anybody to do anything about that, but it seems to me that it would be a very desirable extension of the cy-près doctrine if those conditions can be shown to exist and if the Bill does not otherwise deal with such cases.
There are some questions as to the new powers of discretion given to the right honourable gentleman the Home Secretary under Clause 6 (1) and Clause 17 (6) of the Bill, with which the noble Lord, Lord Evershed, dealt. I myself have no, great apprehensions about the Home Secretary's either using his powers improperly or using them under pressure. I believe that if we are going to have a Minister responsible for the

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administration of charities we must give him ample power to act in accordance with his own discretion. After all, every Minister is open to pressure; it is not unique to the Home Secretary; and we assume that Ministers are strong enough not to succumb to improper pressure and that they will be equally strong under pressure which is proper; and I would be prepared to assume that the Home Secretary would react properly and would give him all the powers he needs, rather than seek to curtail them. Again, however, this is a matter which would be very properly dealt with in Committee, and I would ask the noble and learned Viscount not be too ready to give way on this point but to hear both sides of the argument, because I believe there are two sides to it.
There is just one other point to which I want to refer—the question of registration. It is assumed by everybody that registration is necessarily a good thing. I think it all depends on the purpose of registration. I would not assume that it is necessarily a good thing, but I believe it is perhaps desirable that there should be information available to the general public as to what are charities and, broadly, what they are all about. It is not quite clear to me what is to be the relationship between the central list and the list compiled by local authorities, and why, if it is desirable that local authorities should have a list of charities, it should not be mandatory on their part—why it should be optional, so that in one county or borough one will be able to get a list, while in another, when one asks, it will be found that they have no list. That seems to me to be getting the worst of both worlds, and I would suggest that the whole question of registration—whether both a central and a local list of charities shall be kept and whether keeping them should be made mandatory—needs very careful examination. If there is a local list, why should it not be made mandatory on all local authorities to keep it?
As I say, I have submitted these points with all diffidence. I hope we shall have ample time to discuss these and many other matters on the Committee stage, so that by the time the Bill leaves this House it will be found to be a better Bill, worthy of all the time and devotion
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that have been given to it by my noble friend Lord Nathan and his Committee, and one which, realising that the probabilities are that it will be many years before we have another measure of this kind, we can allow to leave this House with pride in our achievement.
4.31 p.m.
LORD SPENS: My Lords, it is over a quarter of a century since I first ventured to intervene in a debate in another place; and, although a long time has passed and one has had the experience of speaking there and elsewhere, I am bound to say that I rise with as much diffidence as ever, and crave your Lordships' well-known indulgence, courtesy and patience while I make a few remarks on this Bill. It is also over seventeen years since I practised at the Chancery Bar, though during the 30 years preceding that time I was engaged in a good many cases connected with charities and with schemes. However, I confess that I am out of date, except as a reader of recent decisions by noble and learned Lords, some of whom are present to-day. On the other hand, I have during these last years been both trustee and manager of various educational and other charities and have, therefore, some knowledge of the practical questions that arise in connection with charities.
I suppose that when many of us first read the Report of the Nathan Committee one of the two questions which came to our minds was whether or not the Government would attempt to define "charities" and "charitable purposes", and whether the Government would make any substantial extensions of the cy-près doctrine. I know that many laymen—and, I suppose, some lawyers, having regard to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin—would like to see a definition attempted. But I am bound to say that so many and various are the types of gift intended by donors for benevolence and charity, and so many and various are the words which they use in giving those gifts or attempting to establish charitable trusts, that I personally firmly believe that the Government have been quite right in refusing to attempt any definition of "charity" or "charitable purposes" and in leaving it, as the law is to-day, to be determined in each particular case as it comes before the courts whether or not a gift has

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succeeded in being a good charitable trust. Cases have come down over 300 years and more; they establish principles which can be applied, with the help of learned Judges; and I do not believe, even after all the time that has passed since charitable gifts were first given in this country, that anything better can be done than is done to-day.
My Lords, I would venture to make one or two remarks on that aspect. In the old days I think that the great bulk of the decisions on whether or not a gift was a good charitable gift were given in the Courts of Chancery where, on the one side, there were persons interested in establishing a good charitable gift and, on the other side, someone like a next-of-kin or persons who, in default of a good charitable gift, were put up to oppose the validity of the charitable gift. It has been noted by at least one learned Lord and one recently appointed Judge of the Chancery Division that, as often as not, the persons whose duty it was to oppose the validity of the gift had no real interest in doing so. They were often a widow or next-of-kin who knew that the one thing the donor never intended was that the property should come to them. In those circumstances, sometimes the battle to upset the charitable gift was not carried on quite so equitably and successfully as it might have been, and the atmosphere was one in which, more often than not, charitable gifts and charitable trusts were declared valid when they were, perhaps, very borderline cases.
In more recent years, however, a very strong antagonist of charitable gifts has come into the field in the person of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. So great are the fiscal advantages to be enjoyed by charities that it is in the interests of the Revenue that the Commissioners should rightly, as and when they can, do their best to upset charitable trusts and charitable gifts. They can do it on any occasion when some fiscal advantage is being claimed by a charity. A charity of which I have the honour to be a trustee has for years published a magazine which, under the rules of the charity, is given free to those who have contributed a certain sum to the charity. The magazine not only set out the accounts but gave a description of the work of the charity, and included a number of other articles connected with
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the work of the charity. This charity was accordingly attacked by the Inland Revenue Commissioners on the ground that it did not exist exclusively for charitable purposes. The claim was made and withdrawn. But, needless to say, the charity had already incurred a very serious amount of costs which it could ill afford.
The officers of the Inland Revenue are undoubtedly now the great watchdogs, in order, if they can, to question and upset charitable trusts; and one of the things I am concerned about in this Bill arises out of that new atmosphere. So far as I can understand, now that charities can and should be registered, one of the parties who may object to a registration or move for a charity to be removed from the register is the Commissioners of Inland Revenue themselves. If I am right about that, then I think those powers will have to be carefully looked at at a later stage when we consider the Bill in Committee. It seems to me quite wrong that a charity which has been recognised as a charity, and has functioned as such for a number of years, should be brought into peril by the way in which these daises are at the moment worded.
If I may turn to the next point which I should like to discuss, it is this. Clause 13 is—I am not going to say the most important, but at any rate one of the most important clauses in the Bill. I have never myself believed that the cy-près doctrine was applies so rigidly as appears, from the evidence to Lord Nathan's Committee, to have been thought in some quarters. In fact, I know that on occasions the cy-près doctrine has been applied by the Courts to do useful and wonderful things, some of which would, I think, have surprised the ancient donors. There is no doubt, I feel, that, when dealing with ancient charities, a much more liberal and flexible attitude towards schemes was adopted than when dealing with newly established or recent charities. That, of course, is obvious, because with a new or recent charity the circumstances had not very much changed since the donor had endeavoured to indicate how he wanted his benevolence to be distributed, and I think the Courts felt themselves more strictly bound to follow the actual wording of the gift than when dealing with a charity years old, when

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circumstances had completely altered and the ancient wording of the gifts was probably quite hopelessly out of date. As I read Clause 13, its effect is to enable a scheme—a liberal, generous scheme—to be authorised by the Courts or the Commissioners in the case of either old or new schemes; and it seems to me that the wording of Clause 13 will in many cases enable more useful schemes to be made in the future than have been possible in the past.
As regards Clause 13 I should like only to add that I view subsection (4) with some anxiety. It imposes a duty on trustees to apply for a scheme when it should be applied for. I do not know what the sanction is, but I imagine that it is, if the Charity Commissioners or the Minister think that trustees have neglected to apply for a scheme when they should have done so, probably a compulsory inquiry; and a compulsory scheme would then be imposed on the charity. I think, as my noble and learned friend Lord Evershed has said, that the compulsory powers of both the Minister and of the Commissioners will have to be very carefully looked at as we go through this Bill.
I do not want to weary your Lordships with comments on the many administrative changes, all of which, I think, are on the right and on helpful lines, but I should just like to say a word about the schemes for the common investment fund. As I gather from what the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has said, one anticipates that two or more charities will combine in applying, for a common investment scheme, and that the assets of the fund are likely to be vested in the official custodian, with an advisory committee to assist him. I am not quite clear what powers of investment will apply to a common investment fund. Will the custodian be bound by restrictive investment provisions applicable to any of the funds that join? Will he have to continue to restrict himself to existing powers of investment, or will it be possible in a common investment scheme for new powers of investment to be introduced into the scheme? If that is possible, the immediate advantages of a common investment scheme for trusts which are confined to very strict investment clauses will be obvious to everyone. On the other hand,
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I cannot be sure that it will be possible to introduce what I might call a modern investment clause into a common investment scheme. I should therefore be grateful if that point could be made clear.
Now, if I may, I want to raise a point on behalf of the University of Oxford. The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has referred to the universities' being exempt charities under the Second Schedule; and, of course, as such, they are free from some of the more rigorous clauses applicable to charities generally—for instance, no inquiry can be imposed upon them. But it does appear that they come within the scheme-making powers both of the Courts and of the Commissioners or the Minister. As the noble Viscount informed your Lordships, for a number of years the universities have had their own powers of legislation, dealing with and reforming any of their charitable trusts or those of their colleges. Such legislation is subject to the approval of the Privy Council, and has to be laid on the Tables of both Houses of Parliament. It is a method of dealing with their charitable trusts which has been enjoyed by them, and which has worked extremely well. And although they cannot, except at their own request, be subjected to a scheme by the Charity Commissioners, they have made representations to indicate that they feel that the Bill is a "back door" way of getting the Charity Commissioners inside their affairs, and they have asked, and will ask, to be further excluded from some of the clauses in this Bill. I raise these points only to indicate that at a later stage Amendments will be put down to deal with the matters about which the universities feel some anxiety.
Finally, my Lords, I cannot resist referring to the repeal of the law of mortmain. It was introduced centuries ago to secure the revenues of many of your Lordships' predecessors, who felt it hard that they should lose their feudal dues and fees when land found its way into the dead hands of ecclesiastical and other bodies. These laws were got rid of when, at the beginning of this century, the incorporation of commercial and other companies started in their thousands, and they were given statutory permission to hold land. The result is that it is true to-day that these laws

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serve no purpose, except possibly to control the number of foreign companies who endeavour to hold land in this country—and I understand that that is more of an embarrassment than an advantage to the Government and to the country. Therefore, their use has come to an end. I look back, as do some of my noble friends, at our labour in the early years of this century in learning land law, the bulk of which became only of academic or historic interest when the great Birkenhead legislation went through in 1925. What remains has now become completely useless. I am bound to say that it is with a nostalgic acquiescence that I say, "Goodbye to 1290 and all that."
4.52 p.m.
VISCOUNT SIMONDS: My Lords, I rise to support this Bill, but not to give it an equally enthusiastic support in all its parts, Before I do so, I have, in accordance with our custom, the very pleasant task to perform of congratulating my old friend Lord Spens on his maiden speech in your Lordships' House. Inevitably, as my noble friend was speaking, my mind went back to a day long, long ago, the first day on which I took my seat on the Bench in the Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice. The first counsel who addressed me was my old friend, then Mr. Spens, K.C. He made a very convincing speech, I doubt not. Since then, he has played a distinguished part, both in this country and in India, in many fields, and now he has come to your Lordships' House. I am sure that your Lordships will all join with me in congratulating him and hoping that on many occasions we may have the benefit of his experience and wisdom.
I have wearied your Lordships more than once upon the subject of charitable trusts. It was a matter to which the Government were giving their consideration—I think "earnest consideration" is the term commonly used—before the noble and learned Viscount who now occupies the Woolsack had assumed his office. I think it must be said that they have given earnest consideration, proper and good, to the matter. This Bill has had a long gestation, and it is natural that it should. It is a subject of profound importance, because the law of charity impinges upon our social and
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economic life at very many points.
Always there are the poor at the gate. There always have been and I suppose there always will be. And always there are the warm hearts of men who are led to relieve their distress and give comfort to the needy. Equally, always there are men whose piety leads them to the building of churches and the promotion of religious worship, though often, it may be said, in manners profoundly antagonist and intolerant of each other, but none the less charitable. So also there are many men whose beneficence has led them to the establishment of schools and other places of learning. And in a thousand other ways, which your Lordships would hardly believe until you have studied this subject, often curious, often fantastic, sometimes even pathetic, you will find men helping their fellow man. So it is that through the centuries there has grown up a great body of law dealing with these human activities, not only a great body of Statute Law, to which reference has been made, but also a great volume of Case Law. I should not like to say how many hundreds of thousands of pages in the Law Reports deal with charity. Still less should I like to say how many pages I have contributed to that amorphous mass.
But now I think that we have reached a milestone. I cannot praise too highly the draftsmanship of this Bill. The way in which it has cleared up so many untidy places and reduced so many ambiguities is admirable. There is one point upon which I am bound to say that perhaps I would specially praise the Bill. And here I join issue with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, but I am happy to have the companionship of my noble friend Lord Spens. I think that the Government have been very wise not to attempt to define "charity".
I do not want to embark on an old controversy in this matter. I would say only two words. If you attempt to define charity, you have two alternatives. The first is to try to set out in detail, and exhaustively, every kind of activity or institution which is to have the benefit which accrues to charities under the law. If you try to do that, you will soon give it up as a hopeless task. Moreover, if anybody thinks that he can accomplish that task, he will find that the next man will disagree profoundly with him and

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never come to any agreement of any kind. For example, A will say that nothing is more beneficial to mankind than medical research, the study of anatomy and vivisection, while B will say that nothing could be more valuable to mankind than to encourage devotion of the welfare of animals, and we must have anti-vivisection. You will never come to any agreement on what is charitable, and therefore the question of detailing it is perfectly useless.
The alternative is to have general words. And if you have general words, you are in just the same position as you now are under the law as it is. You have the same difficulties and the same problems, and there it is. In my view—and I am bound to say that I have considered this long and often—I think that the Government have adopted exactly the right course in declining to attempt the definition of charity.
I remember well that when this matter of charitable trusts was last before your Lordships' House, I ventured to criticise as severely as I dared the proposal which I think the Government were then toying with, to have some independent provision regarding the investment of charitable trust funds. I ventured to say then that it was a most unwise provision and that, if it found any place in the Bill, I should have something even more severe to say about it. I hardly dare suppose that my minatory words had any effect, but at least there is no such provision in the Bill.
So far every word I have said has been of praise, but now I come to a part of the Bill upon which I am bound to say I feel a great deal of doubt—that is. I am sorry to say, the special child of the noble Lord, Lord Nathan—the central register. I ask myself what purpose this is really destined to serve. Think of what it involves. I had no idea myself of the number, but the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has told us that there are perhaps 150,000 charities, and the number is a growing one. In respect of each of those charities there shall be maintained a register which shall contain
"such particulars as the Commissioners may from time to time determine,"
and all the documents will have to be forwarded. What sort of establishment
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is going to be created in order that all this may be done? I find it alarming. One thing is quite certain: that it will involve a great increase of staff—more Charity Commissioners, more assistant commissioners and more staff generally. That wants a lot of justification.
For myself, I can see no particular virtue in increasing the number of Charity Commissioners. It is not a thing in itself laudable to make two Charity Commissioners grow where one Charity Commissioner formerly grew. There is no merit in it. You have to justify it in some way, and I am puzzled to know how it is to be justified. Who is going to benefit? Is it the individual who wants to be benevolent and to leave money? I cannot believe that he needs anything of the kind. Is it the person who is in need; the man who suffers from some disease or is in need of some particular relief: does he need anything of the kind? I do not believe it. You can go to any sort of voluntary organisation and find the relief you want and get any information you want. I do not believe that there is a corner of England where you cannot get exactly the information you want. If you cannot so get it, do you suppose you can get it from Whitehall, or from wherever this registry is to be established, by searching through 150,000 charities? I do not think it will do any good.
What I am afraid of is that it is simply part of a centralising idea. I do not like it. So much of charity is local: a pride of citizenship in a particular place, a desire of a particular person to benefit the place he has known, often in a rather eccentric way. A local register might be of some use, but I do not believe in the least in a central register or in the suggestion of interference which I see throughout this Bill from a headquarters in London. I am bound to say, if the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, will forgive me, that, as I listened to him, I could not help thinking that that was rather the idea at the back of this central register: that the Commissioners should, to use a vulgar word, butt in where they were not wanted. I do not like the idea. I am not opposing it or suggesting that we should not have a Second Reading of the Bill or anything of that kind, but I think that this is a part of the Bill that wants closely looking into. It is dangerously like "Whitehall knowing

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best", and, as I say, it is a part of the Bill for which I feel no enthusiasm whatever.
There are many small points which will no doubt come up in Committee. I have only one word to say further on the important Clause, Clause 13. That clause deals with cy-pres schemes—and that is a term little known to most of your Lordships until recently, but now no doubt part of your common parlance. Clause 13 on more than one occasion refers to a scheme being made in accordance with "the spirit of the gift." I wonder what that means. Is it an expression which is taken from some case law? It may well be. But if not, I am bound to say that I feel difficulty in saying what it means. Clause 13 (1) (a) says:
"Where the original purposes … cannot be carried out, or not according to the directions given and to the spirit of the gift.…"
How do you find out the spirit of the gift except from the words used? And what is the difference between the words used and the direction given? Perhaps the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack would be good enough to elucidate what is meant by "spirit of the gift" which is to guide the Commissioners or the Court in determining the limits of their powers—if not now, perhaps at some future time.
From time to time I have, as your Lordships know, had a considerable part, in the discussions of these matters, and I welcome this Bill, except, as I say, as to the one central feature about which I have felt and continue to feel very grave doubt.
5.6 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHELMSFORD: My Lords, I hope that, first, I may be allowed to endorse the words spoken by the noble Viscount, Lord Simonds, in appreciation of the maiden speech to which we have recently listened. If, as I believe, sitting together at a City banquet can be the means of creating a very real friendship, then I hope I can refer to the noble Lord, Lord Spens, as my noble friend. Lord Spens claimed that he spoke with real diffidence, but I would submit that, speaking on matters on which he is clearly an expert, he had no reason for claiming such diffidence. But such is not the case with myself this afternoon, for I stand as a layman
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in matters of the law, and it is with the greatest diffidence that I venture to intervene in this debate. I do so as Chairman of the Churches Main Committee, a body which, as your Lordships will be aware, contains representatives of all the organised churches of Great Britain, including the Roman Catholic Church, and which acts as the official intermediary between these churches and Government Departments.
In general, I welcome this Bill, and do so warmly. It introduces a much needed simplification into the highly complicated and, indeed, antiquated law of charities; and if anything is needed to illustrate this point it will be found in the sixteen pages of repeals, including 28 enactments repealed as obsolete. But there are also certain important changes which will assist the churches; and I have in mind, particularly, the repeal of the law of mortmain and the extension of the powers of cy-près.
One of the fundamental proposals of the Bill, as we have been reminded by many of your Lordships, is the setting up of a central register of charities in which all charities not exempted or excepted will be required to record their trusts. We have been reminded by the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor that there may be as many as 150,000 charities involved in this registration. In the Church of England alone there are probably many thousands of trust deeds, and other churches have a correspondingly large number. From the point of view of the Church of England I might say, for example, that many parochial church councils manage two or more trusts and, as managing trustees, would have the responsibility of registering each trust. All our dioceses and boards of finance have a considerable number of trusts which they would be under an obligation to register. This provision, therefore, regarding the recording of trusts in a central register, valuable as it may be, does give us serious concern.
The Bill lays down in Clause 4 (5) that in each case a copy of the trust deed has to be forwarded. It can well be imagined that an immense labour and much expense in copying, and so forth, will be involved. Fortunately, the prospect may not be so black as it appears, as by Clause 4 (4) (b) any charity may be excepted by order or

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regulation. I welcome the assurance given by the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack that many of the smaller trusts are likely to be excepted in this way, and I indeed hope that this will prove to be the case. Consecrated property and registered places of worship are, I am glad to see, already free from this obligation.
At this point I should like to mention one way in which the churches differ from many charities. Most of their large endowments are vested in or controlled by responsible bodies; in the Church of England, for example, there are diocesan boards; in the Roman Catholic Church the diocesan bishops; and in the Free Churches the governing bodies. There already exists, therefore, an adequate machinery for safeguarding many of the trusts. We welcome very much the expressed intention of the Government not to interfere with funds bequeathed or collected for the general purposes of the churches. Conversations have already begun about the terms in which orders and regulations can be drafted so as to grant reasonable exceptions, and, if these conversations progress as they have begun, I am hopeful that the churches will be well satisfied.
I would also remind your Lordships that under Clause 28 there are powers vested in the Charity Commissioners to control the sale, leasing or mortgaging of land. Here, too, exceptions can be made, and we shall want to look carefully at any order or regulations under this clause.
It would, I think, not be appropriate for me to enlarge at this stage on points of detail. There are, of course, points which will need to be clarified, and perhaps Amendments to be moved. There are, however, two or three points which I should like to make, particularly on behalf of the Church of England, and which we feel require further consideration. I will mention these as shortly as I can. Clause 4 provides that exceptions to the requirement of registration can be made by order or regulations. I assume, I hope correctly, from the reassuring speech made by the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack that adequate consultation will be carried out with the churches before these are actually established. The churches will
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be glad to set up a small body of representatives to advise on these matters as quickly as possible. It is clearly essential that the regulations should command general assent.
Another point arising on the same clause is that, under the Bill, any application for a charity to be registered has to be accompanied by a copy of the trust deed. Would it not be possible to amend this so as to provide that a complete copy of the trust deed will not be necessary where the Charity Commissioners already have the deeds or copies in their possession? Another point arises on Clause 21. In general, the churches welcome the power to establish common investment funds, and, indeed, they think that the terms of the Bill might go further. They would suggest that a power might be given to a single body holding a number of individual trusts to apply for authority for a common investment fund in respect of the trusts vested in it.
A further point arises in Clause 31. This, and Clause 8 of the Bill, seem to imply that every charity, however small—such as a trust to spend £2 per annum on the upkeep of a particular grave—must keep books of accounts and send copies to the Charity Commissioners. We hope that here, again, considerable use will be made of the power to except small charities, especially where they are already subject to control from such provisions. As an example, I have particularly in mind the accounts of parochial church councils which are already subject to statutory control. Will these have to be sent to London every year?
Lastly, we are somewhat troubled about the precise implications of Clause 44 (2) of the Bill. This attempts to exclude from the expression "charity", ecclesiastical corporations, whether sole or aggregate, in respect of corporate property held for ecclesiastical purposes, and the trusts of property for purposes for which the property has been consecrated. We assume that under the first part of this clause the residences of cathedral clergy, such as deans and canons, will be outside the scope of the Bill, and that the same applies to glebe land. We hope, however, that we are right in assuming that the fact that certain properties are not affected by the Bill does not mean that they will not be

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accepted as charities for the purpose of income tax, rates et cetera. Could some assurance be given on this point?
The second part of this clause, which deals with consecrated land, raises some difficult points which need to be further considered, but with which I will not trouble your Lordships. Perhaps in his reply the noble and learned Viscount could say something on the points that I have mentioned, and in the meantime is only remains for me, in warmly welcoming the Bill, to say that we shall watch its progress most carefully and we believe that its ultimate results will be wholly beneficial.
5.17 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, like my two predecessors I am very glad to have the opportunity of welcoming a brother Scot and a brother New College man to your Lordships' House. I should like also to thank him for the very able speech with which he opened his career here, and particularly for what he said about Clause 13 (4). The point had already occurred to me, because it seemed to put the burden of the proof of guilt or innocence on the wrong quarter.
Ever since the Napoleonic Wars at least, Britain has been distinguished for its great charities. There is the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, founded in 1824; and in much more modern times there is the Boy Scout and Girl Guide movement, which operates with affiliated branches all over the civilised world. I may say that the Lifeboat Institution is accepted by other similar institutions all over the world as the doyen of life-saving at sea. There is the Boys' Brigade, which is affiliated to all the Churches of Britain. There is the Salvation Army, which is probably, I think, the most important great Protestant movement in all time, which operates all over the world. There is Dr. Barnardo's Homes, which does such magnificent work amongst children, and there are all the various bodies which look after and care for the blind.
My title to speak to your Lordships to-night is the fact that for many years past I have been a member of the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. I am a member of its Committee of Management, and I am peculiarly charged with the business of its collections in Scotland. There is nobody else in the Committee of Management that has an office of
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quite that kind, and it has the very peculiar advantage to myself that there is hardly a burgh or clachan in Scotland in which I have not a friend, and in which I cannot find some business to do. In that way it is a very fine office and job, and it brings me closely into contact with the people who actually contribute to charity—because all the charities that have mentioned are great collecting charities, and they depend for their life on collections from the public. All these charities have taken counsel together, and they have put to me the points in this Bill which give them disquiet.
For the Bill as a whole they have nothing but praise. They, too, unlike my noble fellow countryman, frankly rejoice at the disappearance of mortmain, and most of the clauses they welcome very much indeed. Other noble Lords who have spoken before me have said better than I can what I am saying now, and I hope, therefore, that if I now proceed to criticise certain clauses and explain why they give us disquiet I shall not be taken as a critic of the Bill.
It would very much have simplified the situation if the charities I have named could have been included in the Second Schedule of the Bill and been exempt. But I am told that Her Majesty's Government are quite adamant on that point and that they are not going to extend that Schedule. May I make a mild remark—that that is a ukase and not a reason. If these charities are not going to be exempted, it would very much help if they could be excepted under Clause 4 (4) (b), by order or regulation. I am told that the Government wish to have every endowed charity registered, and that this might lead to some difficulties. It will not affect the institution I belong to very much, but as the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, pointed out, it will very much affect the Boy Scouts and Girl Guides. They form local units to assist their work in different localities; the Scouts have some 12,000 of them, and the Guides some 24,000. So that if every one of those has to be registered it will immediately give the Charity Commissioners up to 36,000 registrations from this one source alone.
The whole question of local charity is extremely difficult in this Bill. One would like to see it confined to charities

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whose operation was entirely within the particular locality and exclude even such a charity if it was affiliated and registered in the books of the great central charities. I do not know if that is possible; I do not know if the distinction can be made. After all, when the Scout movement was started it was never thought they would be brought under an Act of Parliament, and they chose a form that suited best the work they had to do.
Then I should like to turn for a moment to paragraph (c) of the same subsection. If the limit of £15 was raised to £100, that would avoid a great deal of unnecessary work and, I imagine, would relieve institutions like the Boy Scouts from a great deal of registration. In this subsection (4) there is another provision about which I should like clarification: the one that denies exemption to charities that have the use and occupation of land. Does it really mean that the Boy Scouts group which takes a field every year for its sports is to be denied exemption it would otherwise be granted just because of that use and occupation of land?
Then we have the question of charities which are already registered—I am not at all sure that the noble and learned Viscount did not give me some assurance on this in his opening speech: the question of the charities already registered under some Act or other or granted Royal Charter. Some charities, for example, are registered as public companies, and they already send accounts to the Registrar. Then again, there are other charities—for example, all our blind charities—which, under the National Assistance Act. 1948, Section 41, are obliged to be registered with the local authority. Is Section 41 of that Act going to be repealed, or will they have to register again, or will the local authority be the party that has to register them? The whole thing is very difficult and they are very uneasy about it.
This brings me to Clause 8, which deals with accounts. Nobody objects to presenting accounts. Our relations with the Charity Commissioners have been excellent and we have always sent them accounts and they have always been satisfied with them. But we, the Scouts, the Salvation Army and others, operate outside England, and present
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accounts for the whole area. We operate in Great Britain and all Ireland, and our accounts cover that whole area. When we send these accounts to the Charity Commissioners they accept them and they understand them; but if we have got to send accounts in a specially stated form, that is going to entail a very great deal of extra work upon us, because we cannot alter our accounts. This is a matter of which I have considerable experience: in a collecting charity you must not alter the form of your accounts from year to year. In one charity I know an accountant was a member of the accounts committee. He wanted to alter the accounts. The finance committee withstood him, and the only thing he was able to effect was a change of the wording in the narrative of one entry. Immediately they got a letter from somebody in the north, about 120 miles away, saying, "What are you up to with your accounts? You are changing them". It is all right when the man writes in, but when the man does not write in and says, "Somebody is up to some mischief", and stops his subscription, you have no way of getting at it. People are often very glad of an excuse to cease the subscription.
Now we come to one of the most difficult clauses of the Bill, Clause 11, which says that,
"The Council of a county or of a borough may initiate, with the consent of the charity trustees of any local charities … (other than ecclesiastical charities) … a review of the working of those local charities …"
Your Lordships would think that we in the Lifeboat Institution, which operates all over the country, would not be caught by that provision, but there are cases in which we might be. But the Boy Scouts, for example, with their unit charities in every area, are certainly going to be caught by it. This clause, as it stands, does expose those charities, and it exposes them in two directions. It exposes them to local busybodies, and secondly, it exposes them to persons who are constitutionally opposed to charity and ready to make difficulties wherever they can. That is a political opinion with which I do not happen to sympathise, but I do not think it ought to be allowed to hamper the great work we are doing. In Scotland, where the law is different, we do meet these cases: I

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always deal with them personally, and it rather amuses me.
In Scotland we are not going to have Clause 11. The Government have exempted ecclesiastical charities, and it occurred to me (I do not suppose it was the real reason) that among their virtues our ecclesiastical charities have the reputation for making trouble for a Government which makes trouble for them. I do not think it is why they did except them, but it is certainly true. We do not make trouble for Governments and we are victims. It would help us a great deal if the consent of the Charity Commissioners were also a requirement. We should then be dependent for our protection on the Charity Commissioners themselves. The noble and learned Viscount said that the charity trustees could always refuse their consent, but if you are a great collecting charity you are dependent on the favour of the public for your success in your work, and we dare not alienate the favour of the public by refusing the review, however unnecessary, costly and troublesome it may be.
I will give your Lordships a case which occurred to me some years ago and which rather shows what I mean. There was an Act of Parliament—it was an Education Act. I was one of the governors of a school which took children from broken homes. We educated them for the whole of their lives, until they left school altogether and went out into the world. We gave them what children need more than anything else—security. People tell you that children want love and affection. Children need security and regular meals far more than they want love and affection. We gave them those things. They came back to us, as their old home, when they came home from abroad, or from wherever they had been earning their living, and they treated the school like their old home. Under this Education Act the local education authorities could make schemes. The local education committee made a scheme. I personally think that the scheme was made without there being much knowledge of the school. But it absolutely cut our work in half. It was a dreadful scheme. I left the board because I simply could not bear to see our work so frustrated. However, a member of the education committee, who was a very good fellow, came on to the
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board. Fate stepped in and made the scheme impossible to carry out. Now the children are all back in their old place, and they go on the whole of the time in the same school, as was the case hitherto, in one branch or another; and our friend, who came in under what I might call Clause 11, has proved a good director and we all like him a great deal. But that is just good fortune, and it shows what may happen in this type of case.
I have said what I wanted to say on Clause 13. I should like now to go to Clause 27 (1). What are "charity proceedings?" Are they legal proceedings with reference to charity? If that is so, I should rather like to know several things. Is it intended that no charity shall take legal proceedings without the permission of the Charity Commissioners? Some charities are involved in many summonses, and there are occasions in Probate and Chancery matters where prompt action is essential. If we have to get permission from the Charity Commissioners, every case that arises is going to make our operations extremely difficult, the more so because I believe the Charity Commissioners are in London and, when they dictate a letter, it has to be sent to Newcastle to be typed, and has to come back to London to be corrected. Your Lordships can imagine how difficult it will be to work a system in that way. There is another point. Why should not a single person take action against trustees if he thinks the charity is not being properly run? I can give your Lordships a case which arose under the National Health Service Act.
I was trustee of a great many trusts and funds which had to be handed over to the Regional Hospital Boards. In the end they were handed over. But when they came to me for the transfers to be signed I said "No; I am not going to sign these transfers. Parliament has given you power to take these securities, but you cannot make me sign these transfers unless you satisfy me, not only that you have got power from Parliament, but also that you are going to carry out the trusts and undertake the administration." They said, "What are we to do? We do not want to pass a special regulation." I said, "This is not political. I want to see that the thing is properly done." With nearly all the

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trusts it was perfectly plain sailing, but one trust had a special function. I went to the Department of Health and said, "Look here, this trust is not completely dead. It can still be brought into operation and the will of the trustee can be carried out." They said, "Yes, you are perfectly right. We will have an exchange of letters and we will carry this out." The exchange of letters took place, and the securities were handed over. But from that moment the thing has gone dead, and it is not being administered as I think it ought to be. Why should I not take action? It is a matter which I think I should have to consider. If I thought it was of sufficient importance I ought to be entitled to do so.
The most serious clause of all is, I think, Clause 28, especially subsection (2), which imposes restrictions on dealing with any land held by or in trust for a charity which is or has at any time been occupied for the purpose of the charity. That is a very difficult thing for most of us to accept. I do not see how we can run in such shackles. I will give your Lordships a simple case. In the Lifeboat Institution we have mechanics' houses scattered all over the country. Perhaps a mechanic is drowned; sometimes he retires or dies, and we have to get a new mechanic. We have to buy him a house. In the ordinary way, he would move to the old mechanic's house. But there may be cases—this is not at all unusual—where, naturally, we are most reluctant to move a widow. In such a case the only thing we can do in these days, especially when it is impossible to hire houses, is to buy another house, and then, when one of the two becomes redundant, to sell the one that we wish to get rid of. It seems to me that this clause would entirely prohibit that.
To take another case, I was on the board of a blind school which was evacuated during the war to the country. After the war we wanted to get premises which were commensurate with our needs. We were absolutely tied; we could find absolutely nothing. We could not move without the Department, who insisted on the district valuer's valuation. There was no property that we could buy that was anything near that valuation, and we were reluctantly compelled to the view that we could
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never shift, but must stay on in these inconvenient huts. Then fate stepped in and we had a fire, mercifully with no loss of life, and we had to place half our blind children in another place. We were then even more desperate than before, and at last a neighbouring property came into the market. I am afraid that I behaved very badly, and said. "You have got the funds. It is your own money. Buy it and present them with a fait accompli." We bought it, and I am glad to say that the Department realised that it was a proper action. I do not think there was any word of the district valuer when we bought it.
We went on and we made our plans, and developed the place. The only quarrel I have is that when we sent our plans to the Department they checked them rather savagely. I am ready to serve a charity with passion. I am ready to suppress my temper and to work loyally and cordially with my colleagues, even in matters about which I do not agree with them. But when we are doing this work with such a sense of responsibility I do not like to see our plans returned to us, with red ink all over them, like an idle schoolboy's Latin prose, by people who do not realise our emotions and our enthusiasms. So I rather gave up active participation in this charity. They are all my friends and they have asked me not to resign.
For that reason, the story tells your Lordships two things. The first is that if we drive charities too hard, with authority from the top, we either drive trustees into retirement or break their hearts. The other thing is that charities are frustrated which cannot deal with their land as they would deal with any other property, and I should like to see the whole of Clause 28 go. The law of succession in England is one that I do not like and with which I do not agree, but it treats real and personal property as one thing. Why should charity alone be put in this strait-waistcoat? I should very much like to see charities just as much at liberty to deal with land as they are to deal with stocks and shares. After all, the land is not the purpose of the charity, it is only the instrument—which is the same as the money they have.
There are a few more points with regard to the Bill to which I want to draw the attention of Her Majesty's

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Government. I feel that the words "local charity" require some further definition by the Government; and again, in Clause 45, the words "charity trustee" might need further definition. In the case of a charity which is a public company, are the directors of the company charity trustees, or is it the company—or what? So far I have spoken for those who have briefed me—my clients; but now I should like just to say a very short word on my own account.
While I feel that this is a very good Bill I still think it needs a great deal of attention. One thing that is going to be painful to charity in this country is any feeling by people that it is under Government control. That is most vital. In 1953, when this matter was debated in your Lordships' House before, I was furnished with a foolscap page covered on both sides with typescript—nothing bat short formulae from wills by which we had received legacies which made the legacy invalid if the Government had the smallest finger in our activities. The formulae are all different but to the same effect.
The lowest point that the Royal National Lifeboat Institution ever touched in its history was in the third quarter of the nineteenth century when it was receiving a Government grant. When that Institution repudiated the grant, refused it and put it aside, the public took the Institution to its heart and it has never failed since then. Then your Lordships will remember the Education Act, 1928, which gave the education authorities power to take possession of funds of educational trusts. I believe it was a Scots Act; at any rate it had effect in Scotland, which was full of educational trusts or "mortifications" as we used to call them. I do not know where the name was derived from—possibly John Knox. My noble friend Lord Elgin was always acting for education authorities and the late Lord Leren of Melville was opposing him, and they often fought their battles out in this House. From that moment educational trusts in Scotland stopped, and the money, or at least a very large portion of it, came to the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. I believe that educational trusts are beginning to creep back again, although I do not know.
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In some ways this Bill reminds me a little of a small prince trotting along in the palace garden, watched by extremely respectful and apprehensive gardeners. Whenever he pulls up a plant to see how it is growing one or other of the respectful gardeners dashes forward as soon as the little feet have trotted on it, to try to repair the damage. I think my clients this afternoon represent these respectful gardeners. I wind up by saying that I believe British charity is unique in the whole world. Some of it, like the Boy Scouts and the Salvation Army, have spread over the whole world. It is a very luxuriant plant, but if we prune back its eccentricities too much we shall find that, however beautiful it is and however well it grows, it is only a half hardy perennial, and we may kill it altogether.
5.46 p.m.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, while I do not entirely follow all that the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, has said, I agree that he has made one point of very great importance: that this is a Charities Bill and not a Charitable Trusts Bill. In that, it differs from its predecessors, the Charitable Trusts Acts, 1853 to 1939. It involves the registration of bodies which are not trusts. If I have read correctly Clause 4 (4) (c), to which the noble Lord referred, it means that even though a charity has no permanent endowment, if it has the use or occupation of land it has to register. I am an officer of a charity which is a nonprofit-making company and I certainly assume that I shall have to register, although we have no endowment. We have a very considerable subscription income and I imagine that we are compelled to register under Clause 4 (4) (c) because we are in fact occupying land.
Now I want to draw your Lordships' attention to one section of the Bill only: that dealing with the purpose and function of the Charity Commissioners. If one reads the Explanatory Memorandum of the Bill one sees that they are both a legal body and an advisory body, and in some ways I believe there is a compromise here. Her Majesty's Government have tried to marry the legal provisions with the thinking of the Committee of my noble friend Lord Nathan, which saw the Charity Commissioners having a rather wider and more of an advisory function,

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in which case my noble friend Lord Nathan suggested that there should be a different type of person serving on the Commission.
Instead the legal emphasis has been retained and they nevertheless get the advisory function, although they are not going to be a very suitable advisory body. They have three jobs to do. The first of these is the maintenance of this register. The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack suggested that there are probably about 150,000 charities to be registered. It may be that if all charities which have not got trusts attached to them have to register—if, for example, all branches of the Boy Scouts which happen to have a Scout hut have to register—the figure may become astronomical. Nevertheless, I believe that a central register is a valuable thing providing, as my noble friend Lord Nathan said, it is really made to work and do a job.
It is not much good just collecting information if it is not to be made available, and the handling of this data will be a very big job indeed. It has to be classified according to subjects with which charities deal, so that those who want information on sources of charitable assistance will be able to go to the register and look under the particular heading with which they are concerned—whether it is education, youth, research, adult education or physical recreation; and, whatever the subject, that will have to be cross referenced by locality if it is to be as valuable as it ought to be. In the making of the register, all the trustees of all these charities may be involved and their numbers may run into a million or more. A great many of them are ordinary people, quite untrained in the law. They not only have to register, but they have to decide whether to register with the Charity Commissioners or with the Minister of Education. It is difficult for a non-technical person to make this decision.
Again, the charity which I run is typical of many in that it has partly educational objectives. Two of its seven objectives are educational and the remaining five are non-educational. I presume, therefore, that I should register with the Charity Commissioners and not with the Minister of Education. If, however, I have read the Bill aright, it is
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up to the person who registers to make this judgment himself. In his book on voluntary action, the noble Lord, Lord Beveridge, suggested that when charities were in doubt about with whom to register, the person to whom to turn might well be the Lord Chancellor, and that he should give a ruling in all these doubtful cases. One hesitates to suggest this onerous duty, because one does not know how many people are involved. I believe that many village halls contain some education provision. Rulings will therefore be necessary. I plead that there should be prepared by the Charity Commissioners for the trustees of these innumerable charities or their management committees a simple guide as to their duties, in ordinary, non-legal language. This may be a difficult thing to do, yet it is well worth doing, because these trustees, often very small bodies, must take the appropriate action.
The second function which the Charity Commissioners have to perform is that of scheme-making, although, as I understand, this is a parallel function to that done by the Courts. One would have thought that non-legal Commissioners, as proposed by my noble friend Lord Nathan, would have come into their own and would have been particularly valuable, because in scheme-making it is necessary to have constructive, forward-looking imagination and to get away from the narrownesses of a charity which has ceased to be able to perform its functions, and to try to get the spirit—not necessarily the strict legal spirit, but the actual spirit—of the donors who created the charities.
One feels that there are two classes of charity. There is a small number which are doing badly. Often, they may be very small charities which require surgical treatment. Secondly, there is a great number which are doing very well indeed and which need to be left entirely alone. One feels that the danger it that under the compromise there may be a little done to all charities; that all charities may be forced to furnish a great many documents and accounts, which they will find difficult to do. The result will be that the Charity Commissioners will get a huge volume of material, but will find it difficult to pick out those on which they need to operate and which really need their help and advice.

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The third function is described in the Explanatory Memorandum as giving advice and assistance to trustees. Most of those whom I know who have had dealings with the Charity Commissioners have found them very slow in answering letters. Their advice and assistance has taken a tremendously long time to be forthcoming. I am not quite sure about the nature: of the advice. Is it advice as to the law, is it advice on how to keep accounts or is it advice on how to make the trusts serve the public better than they already do?
One would suggest that in giving advice to those who run charities, non-legal are quite as important as legal functions. Again, one feels that the Nathan Committee model of the charity trustees might have been much more effective when it came to giving advice which was not strictly legal. How much work will the Charity Commissioners have to face? I cannot see their being able to deal personally with every case that requires investigation—it will be quite useless for them to try to do so if they are to run any sort of advisory service. The proper answer is that they must have an adequate staff of legal and other officers, working under the general direction of the Commissioners, with the difficult cases only coming before the Commisioners for decision. One would like to make the positive suggestion that to the three Civil Service Commissioners, two of whom are legal and one non-legal, there might be added two part-time Commissioners, men or women of standing in public or charitable affairs, who might exert a stimulating effect on the efficiency of the Charity Commissioners and on their public relations in dealing with the public and with the many ordinary trustees and the many ordinary people who are running charities.
There has been considerable discussion this afternoon of the rôle of the Home Secretary in relation to the Charity Commissioners and the charities on which they keep an eye. He can be regarded either as a danger or as a safeguard. One of the great charitable trusts was recorded in the Observer as saying that he brings the trust into the political arena. I entirely disagree with this. I think it is the collective experience of all your Lordships—I hope that it is—that Home Secretaries are the least likely
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among Ministers to exercise political pressure. The great safeguard against their doing so is their answerability to Parliament.
There are, however, more subtle dangers. In the initiation of social and economic action in all forms of research, the great charitable trusts are now an alternative to the Government. If the Government turn down a proposal, people can still get these proposals carried out, if they are reasonable, by going to the trusts. Governments are not all wise, and it is vitally important to the dynamics of our society to have these alternatives. Such action by the great trusts may be unpopular with the Government. More important, it may be unpopular with the Civil Service. It is never nice to be told that one's carefully considered decisions are wrong it is never nice to see them carried out in spite of oneself. The danger is that there may be subtle pressure on the charitable trusts not to act against declared Government policy.
The second danger is that the Government may push off their responsibilities on to the charitable trusts and get the trusts to do what they are not prepared to do themselves. This is a matter of degree. It is right and proper that the Government and the great trusts should often co-operate in all sorts of enterprises—for example, in the Jodrell Bank telescope. It was a very good thing for the Nuffield Foundation and the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research to co-operate upon. The noble Lord, Lord Nathan, has played a notable part in another important piece of co-operation in connection with criminology.
It must, however, be co-operation between equals, between two autonomous bodies: one should never be able to coerce the other. The only indication for intervention must be real, serious and manifest scandal, and in curing the longstanding evils of the obsolete trust we must not introduce a new evil, that of imperilling the independence of the great, independent, public-spirited trusts which have such an important part in our society. I believe that this risk has only to be realised to be avoided. There may occasionally be individual Machiavellis

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in the Government or in the Civil Service, but neither the Government nor the Civil Service is collectively Machiavellian. The integrity of the Home Secretary and the Home Office is likely to be a better safeguard for the great trusts than any other arrangement. I hope that there will not be a weakening of the position of the Home Secretary under the Bill. I hope that the Government and the Lord Chancellor will feel that, since he is there, he is more likely to do good by being able to exercise restraint on appropriate occasions, and his answerability and his own position will themselves provide the best safeguards which these great autonomous bodies can enjoy.
My Lords, we all admire the immense work that has been done by these great trusts since the coming of our new social security society. They are the spearhead of our social advance, of experimentation and of new thinking. It is vital that in the Bill there should be nothing to prevent them from doing what the Secretary of the Carnegie United Kingdom Trust is quoted by my noble friend Lord Nathan's Committee as saying:
"I think it is the business of trusts to live dangerously."
So long as they do that, and so long as the Bill does not prevent them from doing that, so long will they continue to do real good for our society.
6.2 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I was asked to make one or two points on behalf of the Church Commissioners, but my noble friend the right reverend Prelate has already made them, and therefore I shall not weary your Lordships by making them again. I may say, however, that the Commissioners are extremely pleased with one portion of the Bill—namely, the Second Schedule. This is the third time that I have spoken on this subject, and I took the precaution of looking up the past to see whether time had impaired consistency. I was relieved to find that I could with a clear conscience say almost the same as I had said twice before. The Bill has good points and, like all Bills, it has bad points.
Taking, first, the good points, I regard the power to institute inquiries as very
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valuable where there is suspicion of abuse or fraud. Presumably an inquiry will be set on foot as a result of complaints from the public, much as an inquiry by the Board of Trade under the Companies Act is started by some shareholders. I hope that the inquiries will take place, and that schemes will result where objects appear to have failed and where charities are being kept in being largely through the efforts of their paid servants. That sort of thing has existed and does, I believe, exist. I hope, also, that inquiries will be possible into the question of appeals run by paid organisers, where the expenses are sometimes very large and take a very big proportion of the ultimate proceeds. It is a pity in some ways that a formula for publicity of accounts of these appeals cannot be devised, because the contributors or donors to such appeals very rarely see the ultimate results or accounts of the appeals; and I think that, occasionally, they would be rather shocked if they did see them.
I welcome the widening of the scheme-making power because, in spite of the Welfare State which has rendered many old objects obsolete, there are many new ones not far removed to come in their place. I welcome, also, the provision for common investment funds. I am not quite sure what the ultimate objective is here. From the wording of the clause, it rather looks as if something like the investment pools under the Church Funds Investment Measure is visualised, but there seems to be no widening of the investment powers in this Bill. Presumably, if the Trustee Bill foreshadowed by my noble friend on the Woolsack turns up in the Autumn, the common investment funds could be run with wider investment powers.
I believe that, if the investment powers for charities and trusts in general are widened, it is rather important that these common investment funds should exist, because for one of the smaller charities it is a most invidious task for a trustee to stray outside the list of trustee securities; whereas if he knows he can put his charitable fund into a pool run for him by people of first-rate ability, he will, I think, have no such compunction. The power to authorise dealings in charity property which could not otherwise be within the power of the trustees is obviously a useful power at times, but

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if it is to be exercised with usefulness and effect, the Charity Commissioners will have to be a quicker-moving body than they usually are at the moment.
I am very pleased to see that there is no compulsory local authority register, against which I have spoken twice, because I believe that too much interference by a local authority would kill bequests to local charity. Naturally we are all pleased to see the last of mortmain. I only hope that my noble friend on the Woolsack will suffer no inconvenience from the repeal of the Augmentation Acts or the mortmain provisions thereof. As to common-good funds, the protection of the name presumably leads the way to the setting up of these funds in England, and I can see nothing but good coming from that. Finally, on the good points, there is something in the Sixth Schedule on which I have not been able to take professional advice, but it looks to me as if the retention of income in full, without having to reclaim tax, is to be made easier. However, I may be wrong.
Coming to the bad points, I think that the major bad point is the compulsory central register envisaged in the Bill as it now stands—that is to say, the central register with a very narrow escape clause for all these innumerable trusts and charities. I can think of four reasons which could be advanced for a central register. First, it could be said to be a means to facilitate the swallowing up or amalgamation of all these charitable trusts—one must acquit a Conservative Government of any such ideas. Secondly, it could be for the prevention of fraud; thirdly, for the information of benefactors; and, fourthly, for the information of beneficiaries.
First of all, as to the prevention of fraud, I do not believe that registration among such numbers is any protection at all. It will be rather like a passport, which causes much anxiety and annoyance to honest men but does not deter rogues from popping across the international frontiers at their will. I do not think that any information about malpractices in charities will come from researches by the Charity Commissioners into their accounts; it will come from information laid by the general public. In fact, if we really have up to 150,000 trusts, what sort of examination will their accounts get? I think the question of
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the register being run for the benefit of benefactors was dealt with by my noble and learned friend Lord Simonds. I think we find the real reason when we come to the beneficiaries; and here the Nathan Report bears one out, where it says in paragraph 690:
"Up-to-date classified records are badly needed by would-be beneficiaries and voluntary workers".
Then it goes on, and puts in a slightly sinister phrase:
"and are a pre-requisite of comprehensive reform of trusts."
If this central register were to consist only of substantial trusts and the collecting societies I should not quarrel with it at all. But I really cannot see that the listing of anything from 50,000 to 150,000 trusts, the vast majority of them purely local and the vast majority of them small, can be of any service to anybody. Of course, the mere fact of their smallness and their local-ness might protect a great many of them from begging letters. But the slightly larger ones, and those whose objects are not purely local, would not be protected; and the receipt of begging letters in any number by small to medium size trusts would be a very grave embarrassment. If they were to reply to them the expense would be a serious drain on the funds; and if trustees have too much work in connection with these trusts I am perfectly certain they will hand over and clear out; and the people they hand over to may be less reputable than themselves. The mere cost of registration, of course, will be a tremendous burden—having to deal with the particulars of trust deeds, very often lost; and there will be information demanded by the Charity Commissioners. The trusts sometimes have to employ solicitors, and fees will be a further charge on a very exiguous income.
At the receiving end, the Charity Commissioners will have to sort through these tens of thousands of applications for registration. Many of them they will have to refer back because of errors and omissions, since it is surprising how many people always make mistakes in this sort of procedure. I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, that wholesale registration is important to enable the general public to attain the maximum benefit from these charities, because at least 90 per cent. will be of

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no interest whatsoever and their registration will be sheer waste of money.
At the present moment the Charity Commissioners are a small department, staffed by one or two senior civil servants and a handful of junior ones; and there are complaints from all sides about delays and undue rigidity. My noble friend Lord Saltoun instanced one or two. At the moment it is generally said that there is no chance of getting anything unusual done quickly—and if one wants anything unusual done it is nearly always necessary to do it quickly—unless one goes to see the Charity Commissioners personally and the senior officials there. If they are to have more function and more powers, it is essential that they have a much larger staff. If the Bill passes in its present form the staff will have to be immensely increased, and there will have to be a very substantial increase to the Civil Service, though Conservative Governments up to date have always prided themselves on being able to reduce the size of the Civil Service.
I hope that this Bill will pass, but in a form which will reduce the registration and the work therefrom to manageable dimensions and will provide a list which will be of real use to beneficiaries and social workers. But I hope that the local charities will be allowed to carry on with their good work and that only the larger and non-local charities will require to be registered. Smallness does not detract from charity, though nowadays people are apt to look down on smallness. A parochial charity to provide a bag of coal for poor widows at Christmas is a very valuable form of charity. I was told there is a distinguished professor of botany who was led to take up that subject from the perusal of a book he received as a prize from a local charity for sewing on buttons. If we get too much regimentation, my Lords, charity will be killed, and in spite of the Welfare State there is still much room for charity. I do beg the Government to seek some formula whereby this Bill can become what I believe to be of workable dimensions.
6.20 p.m.
LORD BADEN-POWELL: My Lords, time is getting on, so I will not weary your Lordships with a long dissertation, but I want to say a few words on behalf
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of the Boy Scouts and the Girl Guides Associations. The Boy Scouts have already been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, and by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, and from the few words they have uttered in this particular respect your Lordships will see that there is a large number of units of various sorts which, under this Bill, will have to be registered separately under the central registration scheme. If I quote a few figures, your Lordships will realise the enormity of the additional work which will have to be undertaken, not only by our own headquarters but by the Charity Commissioners themselves: and, as my noble friend Lord Hawke has just mentioned, the colossal amount of additional work which would be entailed by the registration of these additional groups would, obviously, be completely ridiculous.
There are a great number of scout groups in this country, some 10,500 in all. I might explain at this point that a scout group consists of a wolf cub pack, a scout troop, senior scouts and a rover group. There are some 900 local associations which look after them, and 75 scout counties. In the case of the Girl Guides' Association, there are 21,500 guide units, comprising brownie packs, guide companies and ranger companies. They come under 2,165 guide districts, 590 divisions and 79 guide counties. I would explain that in some cases counties are sub-divided for simplicity in administration. If my arithmetic serves me aright, that makes a total of 35,809 units altogether from our two separate Associations. The noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor suggested that under 150,000 new trusts would have to be registered. If we can provide 35,809 of them, that goes a pretty long way towards securing the full total of 150,000.
With this tremendous number of units of all sorts that both the Scout and Guide Associations have, we hope (though perhaps optimistically so) that it might be possible for us to be included in the Second Schedule. No doubt that would be out of the question. We therefore hope that we might come under Clause 4 (4)(b), which says:
"The following charities are not required to be registered, that is to say,—
(b) any charity which is excepted by order or regulations;"

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We very much hope that we may come under that heading if we cannot be included in the Second Schedule itself. I will not weary your Lordships any further. I have certain other details in mind, but many of them have been covered by previous speakers in the debate, so that is all I have to say for the time being.
6.22 p.m.
LORD MCNAIR: My Lords, I hope I shall not be thought to be lacking in sympathy with the objects of this Bill, or lacking in admiration of the work that had to be put in before the Bill could be introduced into your Lordships' House, when I venture to speak upon certain exclusions from the Bill and, in particular, certain universities. As I am a Fellow of my College at Cambridge and hold a minor sinecure office in the University, perhaps I ought to declare an interest in this respect. What I am about to say represents, I believe, the views of the University of Cambridge and its colleges; and, from what the noble ant learned Lord, Lord Spens, said earlier in the course of this debate, it seems probable that the same views prevail in the University of Oxford. I have no knowledge regarding the other universities in this respect, and my remarks must not be understood as referring in any way to their situation.
Universities and colleges are, of course, charitable bodies in the legal sense of that term, and in accordance with the recommendation made by the Committee presided over by the noble Lord. Lord Nathan, and with the Government's statement of policy published in the year 1955, it had been intended that they should be excluded from the Bill which is now before your Lordships' House, leaving them where they now stand in their relation with the machinery of the central Government. I wish to explain to your Lordships what that machinery is, at any rate in the case of the Universities of Oxford and of Cambridge. Those two Universities have been in a peculiar position, at any rate since the Universities Act, 1877, which established the Universities Committee of the Privy Council. That Committee has power to act by three or more of its members, one of whom must be the Lord Chancellor or a member of the Judicial Committee.
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As to these Universities and their colleges, it is the Privy Council which is their parent and which does for them what the Charity Commissioners or the Ministry of Education do for other charities—and, indeed, much more, as I shall show. This link with the Privy Council is now thoroughly familiar and has worked very well; and the University of Cambridge and its colleges, at any rate, sincerely hope that nothing will be done which will impair this procedure or hinder its natural development.
I should like to explain briefly the nature of this procedure. This link with the Privy Council is twofold: it is both administrative and judicial—or, at any rate, semi-judicial. New or amending statutes made by a university or a college must be submitted to the Privy Council for approval; and, as your Lordships may have noticed, in our daily Minutes one frequently sees mention of such statutes being laid on the table of this House and on the table of the other place before being approved by Her Majesty in Council.
I said that the link with the Privy Council is also judicial, or semi-judicial. The Universities Committee has power to adjudicate upon certain kinds of disputes. I recollect some thirty or more years ago attending before this Committee when a large number of Cambridge colleges, represented by counsel, submitted a dispute to the Committee, composed of three noble and learned Members of your Lordships' House. My Lords, at Cambridge, at any rate, we are satisfied with this procedure, which works smoothly and efficiently and which could easily be amended, should that be required, to deal with any new situation. I should like your Lordships, in particular the Lord President of the Council, to realise that we regard it as an honour to be linked with the Privy Council in this way, and we should deeply regret it if this link were to be in any way weakened, impaired or thrown into doubt, as would happen if the universities were to be adopted by a new and unfamiliar parent.
My Lords, the bearing of these remarks upon the Bill now before your Lordships may not be immediately obvious, and so, without straying from the limits of a Second Reading debate, I wish to draw your Lordships' attention to the Second Schedule, mentioned by

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the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack—a Schedule entitled "Exempt Charities". This Schedule defines as "exempt charities" within the meaning of the Act, among other bodies such as the British Museum and the Church Commissioners, the following—and here I quote:
"the universities of Oxford, Cambridge, London and Durham, the colleges and halls in the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge and Durham and the colleges of Winchester and Eton;
I understand that the Nathan Committee recommend the complete exclusion of universities and colleges from any Bill designed to give effect to their recommendations.
The Schedule from which I have quoted defines exempt charities, but it does not state what they are exempt from; that is left, quite properly, to the clauses of the Bill itself. When one examines these clauses one finds that many of them contain a subsection which expressly states that "This section shall not apply to an exempt charity"; but not all clauses contain this provision. There are many clauses which do not and they will require careful examination before the House goes into Committee on the Bill, so that any Amendments that are required may be framed to make it clear that the existing link with the Privy Council remains undoubted and intact, and that there is no risk that an alternative procedure will compete with it or otherwise jeopardise it.
I am sure that the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack will agree that, in spite of the very skilful drafting of this Bill, it remains difficult and complicated, and I earnestly beg, of him that a generous amount of time will be allowed before the House goes into Committee, so that the inevitably intricate clauses of the Bill may be fully studied by those bodies which are, or may be, affected by the Bill.
6.33 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, some of the people who are going to benefit particularly from this Bill are the trustees, and out of the 150,000 trusts which have been mentioned this afternoon, whether or not the 35,000 girl guide and boy scout units are included among them, there will be
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a large number of small trusts which are administered by trustees who are not men of the law and who will particularly appreciate the clarity and the compactness of this Bill. If this clarity and compactness leads to a little more activity, and a bit of overhauling of local charitable trusts, this will be a good thing. But in this connection, I think that it is a great pity that it has not proved possible to dispense with the duality of the central authority. I accept that this duality must remain and that the Ministry of Education and the Charity Commissioners must act concurrently. In practice, I think that there must be an assurance that this is going to work.
If there is to be an increase of applications and other dealings with local trustees, those trustees must be sure with which of the two authorities they are concerned. I know that Clause 2 (2) provides for Orders in Council to define areas of jurisdiction and also that Clause 2 (3) will excuse a trustee who gets it wrong, provided he has taken reasonable trouble to find the correct authority; but what is important is that, given diligence on the part of a trustee, if he sends the application to the wrong authority or if the trust is one of those complex ones which belongs partly to one authority and partly to the other, it should be the authorities themselves who should decide which is to take charge. They should post the application between themselves, when it is received, and not send it back to the trustee merely because he has approached the wrong people.
Furthermore, if there is to be this tremendous task of registration, combined with increased activity on the part of local trusts, there must be enough staff. The Commissioners particularly are involved, because it is they who are going to register and not the Ministry of Education. It would be most unjust if the Commissioners' staff were all employed for the next five years, let us say, on registration, while the Ministry of Education staff can get on with schemes and other matters dealing with trusts which come under their jurisdiction. I think that in the course of this Bill we must have an assurance from Her Majesty's Government that there will be staff; otherwise any springlike enthusiasm which this Bill may have evoked in the local charity world will

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soon wither away when trustees find that yet again there are delays and nothing seems to be done.
Whatever may have been the scope of the cy-près doctrine heretofore, this Bill makes it clear that the power of scheme-making can be exercised over comparatively wide limits. In the case of small local trusts, I think it must be admitted that the very knowledge that it is a small area or community that is to benefit by the trust plays a large part in inducing a donor to entrust his money to one of these local charities or to found one. When one looks at the Bill as it stands at the moment, the scheme-making powers are defined in the main part. The enlargement of areas of local charities appears in the Third Schedule. In the second column of that Schedule, in paragraph 6, it says that a parish charity may be extended into an area not extending beyond the county district or districts comprising or adjacent to the parish or parishes in which the charity started.
I do not think that the Nathan Report envisaged quite such a large extension, and if the White Paper does so I am afraid that it does so on an analogy with an urban community. It is true that there has been power to extend local urban trusts over the rest of a municipal borough, but when one says that it is reasonable to spread a parish trust over the whole of the county district, or worse still, over a county district and the adjacent county districts, one is talking about a very different matter. I have been given one instance, which I have been assured was taken at random, of a corner parish in one of the Midland counties where, according to the definition in the Third Schedule, a trust started in that parish could be extended over no fewer than 101 adjoining parishes. That sort of extension must be too wide, although that is perhaps an extreme case. I am afraid that it might have the effect in due course of leading local men and women who wish to found a small trust for their own village or community to be frightened off, because they think that the benefit might be extended too widely or wasted or become lost among many other similar charities in the area.
There is a little disquiet about Clause 13 of the Bill regarding the mention of a Royal Charter. Both the Nathan Committee Report and the Government's
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White Paper have made it quite clear that common-good trusts when they come into existence should be of a local nature only and not of a national nature. There has been a little anxiety that the provision for common-good trusts to be controlled by a Royal Charter may be paving the way to rather larger trusts of this nature than had been envisaged by the Report or by the White Paper, and I think an assurance that this is not so would go a long way to assuage the anxiety on that score. There are a few other small points with which I should like to deal on the Committee stage, but with which I will not weary the House this evening. In general, I would wish nothing so much as to join in the round of appreciation and praise which has greeted this Bill in your Lordships' House this afternoon.
6.42 p.m.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, so many clauses of this Bill have been commented on from all sides of your Lordships' House that I do not think there is a great deal more to be said at this stage, except perhaps to try to sum up the general impression which this Bill gives to the lay reader. It is rather an authoritarian Bill. There is a great deal of new control on a three-tier basis. The Minister, for the first time, can be called in to adjudicate and to have dealings in the control of charity and charitable trusts; the Commissioners—and rightly so—are given greatly extended powers; and for the first time local authorities are called in on to the scene. I should like to make this comment to your Lordships. I believe that charity flourishes best in a soil of freedom and liberty. I do not believe that charity will flourish under the somewhat strict and severe conditions laid down by the Nathan Committee, but rather will be somewhat chilled. I think that the control of charities is best exercised in a very light and delicate manner.
The imposition of the Minister is a great innovation. He can move the Charity Commissioners to act. And what will be his reasons for doing so? Will they be political reasons or charitable reasons? The answer to that question has yet to be given. A Minister cannot be divorced from politics, and I should have thought that the executive hand of the Minister might well have

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been omitted from this Bill. The Commissioners themselves in future are to be appointed not by Her Majesty the Queen, but by the Minister. Is there any advantage to charity in this? I think that is an important question.
The local authorities, who are now brought in by Clause 10, are given wide powers. They can maintain an index of local charities, which I suppose they will obtain from the general register. I take it that the local authorities will have sent to them by the Charity Commissioners a section of the general register—that is my reading of the clause. But the composition of the general register itself has been submitted to some severe doubts, both by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simonds, and by my noble friend Lord Hawke. But if such a register is compiled, then no doubt a section of it will go to the local authorities. And if your Lordships read on to Clause 11, you see what the local authority's duties will be. They
"… may initiate, with the consent of the charity trustees of any local authorities in the council's area … and may carry out in co-operation with the trustees a review of the working of those local charities …"
I think it is open to doubt whether that will be for the benefit of charity. I ventured to speak to your Lordships on this point on the last two occasions when the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, raised this matter. It will be difficult for one individual charity to resist giving their consent f the council of a county or borough, or even a district council, have obtained the consent of the other local authorities to the review; and I think the smaller charities may be almost forced to join with any other charities in such a review, even against their better judgment, as no doubt the consent of the majority of the charity trustees will be required for such a course. But I still doubt whether the local charities themselves would benefit very largely by this review by local authorities. Local authorities are elected not for charitable purposes but for local government purposes, and for the life of me I cannot understand how they are properly brought into the subject of charities.
Clause 13 has been acclaimed on all sides of the House. That clause deals largely with cy-près arrangements, and although they are set out here quite
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clearly it has always been the practice of the Charity Commissioners, and of the courts when application was made to them, to authorise cy-près schemes. I can assure your Lordships that this is nothing new, and although it is set out here and brought up to date it has always been possible for charities whose purposes have elapsed to obtain such a scheme. I should like to refer only to two other clauses. Clause 23 enables the Charity Commissioners to give advice to any charity trustee in any matter affecting performance of his duties. I wonder whether that is wise, because if one trustee dissents from the opinion of the majority he may feel himself aggrieved, and he can create difficulties, so far as I can understand this Bill. He can write to the Charity Commissioners. Is it really necessary that the Charity Commissioners should have to correspond with individual trustees of a charity who do not wish to be governed by the majority vote? I foresee endless and futile correspondence under this particular head.
I should like to make one suggestion regarding the registration of charities. If such a provision should be eventually included in the Bill in its final form, would it not be possible for the Charity Commissioners to be reinforced by a registrar, and a complete registration of organisations set up to assist the Commissioners? Because undoubtedly they will be overwhelmed with their statutory work. Some such officer as the Registrar of Friendly Societies would, I should have thought, have been of great assistance in this formidable task. We have heard this afternoon how formidable it is, and there are great fears that it will be even more formidable than has been envisaged. If the registration starts off at a slow pace and takes several years to conclude, then none of the provisions dealing with what happens after registration can come into effect for a considerable number of years.
I regret that I was unable to be in my place this afternoon when the noble and learned Viscount moved the Second Reading, so that I am at a great disadvantage in speaking this evening. But these are, I think, a few comments which have some relevance to the debate which has taken place. Noble Lords on this side of the House are well aware of the great interest and pains the noble and

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learned Viscount has taken, over many years now, in controlling the powers of Ministers and substituting other bodies for the sole Ministerial power. We are all grateful to him for his action in so doing. I hope that after the debate this afternoon he will be prepared to look again into the proposals of this Bill dealing with the new powers of the Minister, which appear to me, and, I think, to a number of noble Lords on this side of the House, to go too far.
6.56 p.m.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord who has just spoken can rest assured that no one could argue that what he has said was irrelevant to the discussion. I only wish he had gone in to bat earlier, because what he said would have given other speakers something to "bite on," if I may use that expression in the most friendly spirit. Perhaps he and other speakers, including my noble friend and acting Leader Lord Silkin, and my noble friend Lord Taylor, and, indeed, all the other speakers, will forgive me if I do not stand between the House and the Lord Chancellor, in order to allow the Lord Chancellor to reply to points rather than attempt that task myself.
I should like to make two comments about the speeches that have preceded mine. The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, takes a different view of these things from those of us who sit on these Benches. That must be said clearly and firmly. But perhaps the issues can be drawn a bit closer when we get to the Committee stage. I should like to add one word of tribute to what has already been said about the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Spens. It would be an impertinence of me to talk as though he were a maiden speaker, in some sense a junior or less experienced than myself; but I know that all of us on this side would wish to assure him that he appeared this afternoon, as we have no doubt he is, a wise and learned gentleman, and a very charming speaker. We on this side—and that is all I can speak for, although I am sure it is true of the whole House—wish to hear him very often in the future.
I must pay a very strong tribute—at least as strong as any paid, and perhaps I have special reasons for doing so beyond those of other speakers—to the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, for his work in this connection. We are debating
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what I hope will always be known in history as the Nathan Bill. It does not appear to be called that, but I hope that eventually it will become the Nathan Act: I hope that that may be moved as an Amendment before the discussions are over. But certainly part of the credit must go to the noble Lord, and I hope everyone will join in the warmest possible tribute to him. About him, I would say only this. One sometimes hears the phrase used derisively "So-and-so is a do-gooder." I would use that expression in terms of admiration to the noble Lord, Lord Nathan. I do not know anybody who goes about the world doing more good, doing it more generously and more unobtrusively than the noble Lord, Lord Nathan. In this case, he has been forced into the open, and I hope they will link his name with charities. Certainly no name could be more properly linked with them.
I want to make a few comments on the Bill and then to offer, I hope in a fairly brief space of time, some wider remarks before I sit down. I have had close contact in recent days with the National Council of Social Service, to which the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor paid so well justified a tribute. Though in my remarks no responsibility, except in the case I mentioned, must be accorded to them for anything I say, I should like to inform the House, if they are not already aware of it, that the National Council of Social Service, whose position, I suppose, is higher than that of any other single body in this field, are heart and soul behind the Bill. Apart from any details with which we need not be concerned now, they give a general welcome to this Bill; and that alone weighs very heavily with me.
I agree with those—though perhaps not to quite the same ecstatic extent—who are full of praise for the drafting of this Bill. Most of the praise, I think, came from lawyers in various parts of the House, who are no doubt perfectly capable of understanding any Bill. I would not choose even this Bill as bedtime reading, except perhaps that it would send one to sleep quickly; but those who feel that it is easy to read will no doubt prove their capacity to argue with one another when we reach the Committee stage. To me it is just a Bill, and very, stiff reading, though no

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doubt put as clearly as possible. It is, however, no doubt a remarkable drafting feat, and we must be grateful. It protects the interests of charities and ensures that they shall not become subordinate to the authorities. That is my view, whatever the view held by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. I should like to return later to the topic of the co-operation, the necessary partnership, between voluntary bodies and statutory authorities, to which I, and I think all on this side, attach the greatest importance.
I have listened with great care to the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Simonds, and others who criticised the central register. It has been asked: what is the good of this central register? Who is going to benefit? There I can quote the National Council of Social Service, who are likely to be at least as well informed as anybody else. They feel that it will greatly facilitate their work and the work of other bodies, in providing information and advice over the whole field of charitable work. That opinion weighs a great deal with many of us, and therefore I would strongly support the central register.
I welcome the proposal to relax the cy-près doctrine, but I realise that issues are involved which must be discussed on the Committee stage, and I can only indicate good will to what is proposed in a general way. There is the question of the composition of the Charity Commission. I feel, and I think I am in line with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, that the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, had a better proposal than that to be found in the Bill. If I understood the Report rightly, Lord Nathan, apart from recommending a larger body, would have liked to see a body set up which represented various forms of experience in public life and charitable affairs; and I should have hoped that critics of the Bill, such as the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, who fear the dead hand of bureaucracy, and so on, would have preferred Lord Nathan's solution in this respect to the rather more bureaucratic solution (if that is the right expression) proposed by the Government.
But I must not be what one might call more of a Lord Nathan than Lord Nathan himself, and I gather that he has acquiesced in the Government proposal, realising that perhaps the best that could
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be obtained in the circumstances was an advisory body on the lines of his original proposal. But I hope that the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, when he replies, will be able to answer the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Nathan on the subject of the advisory body. I think the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, raised the question of whether, in fact, it needed legislation. That was one issue that was raised. The noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor may tell us that that particular proposal does not require legislation, but if that be so I hope that he will be able to express at any rate approval in principle for the idea of an advisory body; and that would certainly be the solution of many of us.
Then there are the powers to be given to the Home Secretary. There are other Ministers on whom they could have been conferred. I remember that when we discussed this question ten years ago, in the debate initiated by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel (and we are pleased to see him here this afternoon), there were various suggestions that there should be some kind of Minister of voluntary action. I cannot remember what everybody said, or indeed what anybody said; but that idea was in the air, and on the whole it was turned down. I think this suggestion of giving the Home Secretary a kind of watching brief or power of friendy assistance is a better plan. It is better than having no one to assist the voluntary bodies and better than having a special Minister who might meddle too much. One could (think of other depositories for these powers. To name them is rather to reject them. The Lord President would not have sufficient staff. The Minister of Education would have other duties, and in any case many of these functions would not be educational. So I suppose that, on the whole, the Home Secretary is the best Minister. I welcome suggestions which appear to be made to enable him to assist the voluntary bodies.
Before I sit down I should like to offer one or two general thoughts which came into my mind when some noble Lords were speaking this afternoon, and going back to the debate, to which I have just referred, initiated by the noble Viscount, Lord Samuel. Ten years ago it fell to my lot in this House to emphasise the support of the Labour Government of

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the day for voluntary action in general. To-day it is ancient history, and nobody would now think that surprising. I was, of course, speaking not off my own bat but on behalf of the Government as a whole. But in those days (and I hope noble Lords opposite will not be affronted if I remind them) it was far from certain how the Conservative Party viewed the Welfare State. If anybody doubts that, he need only look at that debate. It was not a term of praise on the lips of every Conservative speaker ten years ago. Equally, it was far from certain, at any rate in the eyes of those outside the Labour circle, how the Labour Party viewed voluntary action. To-day the danger of a conflict on Party lines between the principle of the Welfare State and the principle of voluntary action has disappeared—I hasten to say that I am not attributing it to any utterance of mine. I think it is worth reminding ourselves of the importance of keeping these things out of Party politics and our good fortune during recent years in having been able to eliminate the Party aspect from this particular discussion.
It seems to me that there will always be a problem here. All of us in this country now accept a kind of rather undefined community responsibility for national welfare, including, of course, welfare for those least able to look after themselves. But that raises a certain problem. How, if we accept the responsibility on behalf of the community, are we to discharge that responsibility by any kind of State action without interfering with essential liberties? That is the problem; and it will be a permanent problem, whatever Party is in power and whatever administrators are governing our affairs. The answer in general terms, which certainly I was instructed to supply ten years ago—I supplied it then with all my heart, and I think it is certainly accepted by everyone now: it is taken for granted in this House—lies in some form of partnership between the statutory bodies, whether they be central or local, and the voluntary associations.
The partnership, of course, may take a hundred different forms in this British society of ours. In the very interesting and, to me, rather formidable speech from the noble Lord, Lord McNair (I
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must think over what he was saying in time for the debate on the universities in a few weeks) we heard references to the universities—voluntary bodies which receive most of their money from the State. Then we have certain voluntary bodies, varied forms of youth organisations, which receive quite a large part of their money from the State; and many of us are associated with charities which receive none of their money from the State, and on the whole prefer not to, because they feel they can do the job better that way. The partnership takes these different forms, and one hesitates to be dogmatic as to which kind of function or welfare service can be performed by the State and which kind can best he performed by voluntary bodies. Certainly in a sentence or two it would be very rash to appear to be laying down the law. But I think we are all well aware that the State has the overwhelming advantage of being able to lay its hands, in the last resort, on the resources of the community. And, of course, the smaller local bodies can lay their hands, within limits, on the resources of the local areas. That carries an advantage and a disadvantage. It is unlikely that a body that can make use of the resources of the community can so act without securing the consent of the community, which may take considerable time. It is less likely, therefore, that the purely State body will be the most active in pioneering; there is always bound to be a large function for the voluntary bodies there.
Then, again, though it is not certain to be so, the large body, particularly if it is to act according to certain rather definite rules, may find it harder to render a service of a personal kind than the smaller body. So on those two grounds alone, the need for a pioneering body and for the more personal touch, there is bound to be great scope for what is called voluntary action. I do not wish to try to lay down the law, but just to point out that, in my opinion, we in this country will never see the disappearance of the need for voluntary action. I do not think the need for it will grow less as the services rendered by the State expand, because we are all the time, so to speak, aiming at a moving target, a higher level of welfare provision for our people as a whole.

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My Lords, I will close in a moment. Ten years ago on behalf of the Government I said that democracy without voluntary action loses its soul. I would say now that the Welfare State without voluntary action loses its chance of realising its vision of national welfare in freedom. Without voluntary action the Welfare State either would be bound to fail to provide welfare or it would be false to freedom. In either case, it would betray its ideal. Therefore, voluntary action, which is the underlying side to-day, is more important than ever it was, and becomes, as I said just now, still more important as we journey forward and, we hope, upwards.
Therefore, speaking from these Benches on behalf of my colleagues, I welcome with all my heart this Bill, on many grounds. The fact that it comes from our old friend and dear colleague, Lord Nathan, is an additional attraction; but, even apart from that, we feel that it is a real step forward in social progress. We commend it as fostering the spirit of charity. There has been some dispute as to the legal meaning which should be attached to the word "charity," and laymen can be forgiven if they are not quite sure what that meaning amounts to. But none of us has any doubt of what charity means in the Christian sense. As I see it, it means 50 million people trying to help one another, and not just 5,000 excellent administrators trying to help the rest of the 50 million. It is in that spirit, therefore, of mutual Christianity that I commend this Bill to the House; and I hope that when he replies the Lord Chancellor will be able to assure us, as I have no doubt he will, that the Government are dedicated to the ideal of the Welfare State, and that they believe that that ideal can be achieved in its fullest and highest sense only if the spirit of voluntary action is encouraged by every means possible.
7.14 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am sure that no Minister in charge of a Bill could be anything but delighted by the reception that this Bill has had to-day. What I intend to do in my reply is to put in the first place those matters on which people have asked me for assurances, because that may be help-
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ful to them in seeing the bodies with which they are interested and also as to their future conduct on the Bill.
But I could not go on to that without dealing with two personal matters which give me great delight. The first is the maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Spens. He referred to 25 years ago in another place. He may remember that a junior Member to him, co-operated with him in many matters a quarter of a century ago. It is a delight to hear him talking on a subject on which manifestly he is well informed, and we are sure that we shall have the same pleasure when he passes to other subjects.
Then I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, for what he said about the framework and the drafting of the Bill. I am specially grateful to him for his words about the drafting. I think that Parliamentary Counsel have a hard and thankless life. Whenever there is a difficulty someone draws attention to it; but when we, who are, or have been, Ministers of the Crown, think of the marvellous series of operations over the arches of the years which have come from that office, we indeed owe them a deep debt of gratitude, and I am glad that the noble Lord mentioned it to-day.
I think that the only point on which the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, would like me to say a word at this stage—the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, reinforced this point—is with regard to the Advisory Council. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary was anxious to get the reaction of your Lordships' House to that conception. The noble Lord, Lord Nathan, was perfectly right in saying that it does not require any statutory provision to enable my right honourable friend to take that course. While he has not made up his mind on the matter, because he wanted to hear from me and to read the debate about it to-day, the door is not closed, and I shall report to him what the noble Lords, Lord Nathan and Lord Pakenham, have said, and we shall consider the matter again. I fully understand the weight of what has been said about the various aspects of the Bill where such an advisory body might be helpful to the Minister. Therefore I should like to leave that point in that way, with the promise that I will report to and discuss it with Mr. Butler myself.
The other point which Lord Nathan mentioned, and Lord Silkin developed,

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and which was referred to by my noble and learned friends, Lord Spens and Lord Simonds, is the absence from the Bill of a modern definition of charitable purposes to replace the Preamble to the Statute of Elizabeth. Well, I listened, as I always do, with respect and attention to what Lord Silkin said, but I must say that my view is the view that we expressed in the Government White Paper after Lord Nathan's Report, that we agree with the content of the present law on charity. We think that it would be most desirable, if it could be done without danger, to put that in a statutory definition. But what the statutory definition would be is absolutely beyond my knowledge of law and beyond my imagination. As a Law Officer of the Crown I had to consider this point very often. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin may have had in his mind the definition of Lord M'Naghten and his four categories in Pemsel's. case. I would just ask the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, to go with an unbiased mind and to read that part of Lord M'Naghten's speech about the fourth category. I will then set him a short examination in that fourth category alone and will ask him to reduce it into legislative form. If he does that, my immensely high opinion of him will have increased even more.
Next, if I may take the points in order, the noble Lord, Lord Amutree, was the first to raise the question of the Boy Scouts, and that point was reinforced by my noble friend Lord Saltoun and also by my noble friend Lord Baden-Powell during his speech. Now the primary fear is that on registration each local manifestation of the Boy Scout Movement will have to be registered. On that point I can reassure noble Lords. What we want by registration is to have a central public record of organisations administering property for charitable purposes. We want that record to show what charities exist, where it is possible to communicate with them and what purposes they serve; and it arises from the responsible trusteeship of a minimum amount of trust property: for example, where there is a body which has a national manifestation and also a local manifestation, each local manifestation—perhaps a Scout group as my noble friend Lord Baden-Powell put it—should be separately registered. It may be that in certain cases there would
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be some local holding of property with local trustees and that cannot be avoided. But in the ordinary case they may get a hall from a school or something of the kind and the Scout group may have very little more than running property; and then there would be no such question.
I should like to assure your Lordships very strongly that it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government that registration should be flexibly regarded and flexibly carried into effect. We do not want to chase people to register for the sake of registering them. We hope that in all these examples there will be flexibility. I am told that conversations have already begun with representatives of some Churches and of the Boy Scouts' Association and other national associations regarding administrative measures that would be appropriate to secure the best results, and I want my noble friends to realise that we are extremely desirous that this should be done sensibly. If I might pause there for a moment, I would say that I am particularly interested in the Boy Scouts' Association. I once rashly said in public that I was the first King's Scout to become Lord High Chancellor of Great Britain, and I was promptly told that the view of the Movement was that I was the first Lord High Chancellor of Great Britain who had been a King's Scout. That is a divergence which I apologise for inflicting upon the House.
The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, also raised the fear of the position of a local authority. My noble friend Lord Hylton also developed that point, as did my noble friend Lord Saltoun. I should like, first, to point out that under Clauses 10, 11 and 12, which deal with local authorities, nothing can be done except with the consent of the trustees. Clause 11, to which my noble friend Lord Saltoun referred, enables local authorities, with the consent of the charity trustees, to initiate reviews on the working of local charities and to make reports and recommendations to the Commissioners after consultation with the trustees. My noble friend Lord Saltoun said that there may be a need for consent but that trustees may be expressly or by implication bullied—I am putting it bluntly—into giving consent, or may be frightened to refuse consent. I believe that the answer

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to that was foreshadowed by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, himself. He suggested that there should be the consent not only of the trustees but of the Commissioners.
I attach great importance—and here, with the greatest respect, I differ from my noble friend Lord Hylton—to Clause 23, to which he drew attention, which deals with obtaining the advice Of the Commissioners. I believe that that is very important. Supposing the situation arises (the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun had it in mind) that there are trustees of perhaps a not very big trust and the local authority comes along and says, "We should like a review." The trustees do not want to offend. What can they do? What should I do if I were a trustee? I should write to the Commissioners and say: "This is how we are doing our job. The local authority have suggested a review. We cannot see any reason for that, but it is very difficult for us, as we are local people who meet the local authority in other connections. That is the position. Will you help us?"
The other point where it is so important—and I do not know whether my noble friend Lord Hylton appreciated this aspect—concerns the giving of practical advice. The other day a local charity came to me, as a local resident, in one of these cases which are very common concerning village halls. A question arose with which I am sure all of your Lordships have had to deal, as to whether the hall had been built for the ecclesiastical parish or the geographical parish. There was a difference of opinion between the trustees as to the interpretation of the deed. I put to my noble friend Lord Hylton that here is a case where it is of supreme importance that there should be this right to go to the Commissioners—and it does not matter which trust goes. The Commissioners, at their own expense, go to solicitors and counsel, and get a first-class legal opinion as to the true construction of the deed, which they pass on: and the division between the trustees goes. That seems to me a most valuable and practical method, and I believe that the same thing could be applied, in a rather wider way, to the difficulty of the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun. But I do ask your Lordships, with respect, to re-read these clauses.
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I have mentioned Clause 11 and, after all, Clause 12 gives statutory authority for consultation and co-operation. But in none of these clauses is there the slightest expressed or implied compulsion on the charitable trustees. Certainly if my noble friend Lord Saltoun can think of any words that will make the absence of compulsion clearer I shall be glad to consider them, because that is what I want.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble and learned Viscount, but my point can be put quite shortly and clearly. Long experience in the work of a great collecting charity has shown me that it is—or would be—quite impossible for trustees on their own to refuse a request by a local authority for a review. They would have to get support from outside. It would have to be put in the Statute that the local authority must get the agreement of the Charity Commissioners.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, it is laid down in the Statute that they can consult, and they can get advice from the Commissioners; I should have thought that that was the way to meet that difficulty. I quite see, especially as regards a collecting charity, my noble friend's point. If it looked as if it were dodging (speaking colloquially) an inquiry by the local authority, that would put people off subscribing. But I think the answer is to go to the Commissioners and to say to them at the first sign of the matter. "You know all about us. You know how we are carrying on our work. You have a word on our behalf to the local authority".
May I go on to deal with other points in this order? My noble and learned friend Lord Evershed raised on behalf of the large charities the three provisions: Clause 6 (1), Clause 17 (6) and Clause 19 (1). Clause 6 deals with the power to institute inquiries, and Clause 19 (1) deals with a similar aspect of the matter where the action is for protection of the charities; and Clause 17 deals with a rather different point, when the Home Secretary will intervene. I think that there are obvious arguments, which indeed have been deployed in this debate, for the existence of a power to institute inquiries. I do not think my noble friend Lord Hylton heard my remarks, because he had the good fortune

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to miss my opening speech, but I did mention that in regard to these matters, which are very germane to his general line of argument, we were prepared to look at all of them to see whether I could make them more specific and narrow them down.
LORD HYLTON: I am very much obliged.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: It is an important point. I specifically mentioned that there are two in which the Minister is concerned, and I said that I would try to make them specific and therefore prevent the impression my noble friend had of the Minister wanting a sort of roving inquiry. I will consider it again when I have read the debate, but at the moment I think the power to have an inquiry may well be a necessary power, given the circumstances predicated.
As to the points of the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, I have dealt with the general point on the question of the definition of "charitable purposes". Perhaps, in view of the time, he would excuse me from going into the other points. There are clearly points which it will be most interesting to discuss on the Committee stage, but I am very anxious to give some assurances on specific matters about which I have been asked to-day, and therefore I would ask him to bear with me. My noble friend Lord Spens, in that excellent maiden speech, asked me a question about the common investment fund schemes. Broadly, I should have thought the investment clause of such a scheme would normally, as a matter of practice, be thought appropriate to the investment of trust funds under the general law; and if a trust has a more restrictive investment clause the proper course would be to modify this by the scheme before seeking to enter a common investment fund with wider powers. But as my noble friend knows, we have said we are going to legislate at the beginning of the next Session on the general question—I mentioned it—for trustees as a whole. So I think that, in a sense, that problem will become academic, unless there are deeds with a restrictive clause, in which case they can be dealt with in the scheme.
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Perhaps I may deal now with the university point. I think my noble friend was the first to mention it, although it was developed with great force and clarity, if I may say so, by my noble and learned friend Lord McNair. I should like to make this quite clear. There is not the slightest intention to encroach in any way on the autonomous statute-making powers of Oxford and Cambridge. I am authorised to give as firm an assurance as could be given. The enabling powers of the Charity Commissioners are available to them on request, but there will be no pressure on them to use these powers if they do not wish it. Certain orders have been requested by Oxford and Cambridge from time to time because they were borderline cases and not clearly within their autonomous powers. As exempt charities—I think this is the point—they are wholly exempt from all the supervisory or restrictive powers in the Bill. But, of course, the general law of charity declared in the Bill must apply to them. That is as complete a reassurance, and is intended as such, as I can give to my noble friend Lord McNair.
My Lords, my noble and learned friend Lord Simonds, like my noble friend Lord Hylton, was in some doubt as to registration, and my noble friend Lord Hawke had the same thoughts. Apart from the question of knowledge, which my noble friend Lord Hawke very fairly deployed in favour of registration, and which my noble and learned friend Lord Simonds examined—that is, knowledge of benefactors and beneficiaries—think there is another important aspect in the matter. It is that fellow trustees (and I am afraid I put this rather elliptically in my opening speech) should know what other fellow trustees are working for, and to what purpose: what is the aim and what is the object of their trust. I say that because undoubtedly there is a danger that there may be trusts working on certain lines, and if only they were to alter these lines they would still be within their purposes but would be using their money much better. Similarly with regard to local authorities, I think it is useful that local authorities should know what work is being done in the area, and in regard to that there should be a much greater degree of knowledge all round. I have no doubt that we shall come back to this point on the

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Committee stage, but that is my feeling on the requirements of registration.
Now, my Lords, if I might come to the points which the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Chelmsford asked me, I think that I can satisfy him on all of them. If I have missed any, I hope he will not hesitate to interrupt me, and I will do my best to answer them. First of all, on Clause 4 I gladly give the assurance that, as regards the making of excepting orders, adequate consultation will be carried out with those nominated before the nominations are made. I also promise that consideration will be given to the requirement, in subsection (5) of Clause 4, that an application by a charity for registration must be accompanied by a copy of the trust deed though the Commissioners already have a copy in their possession. Obviously, that should not happen. I will ask at once for that matter to be looked into and dealt with, but I am quite prepared to give the assurance that we shall look into; it and I am sure we shall find a way.
With regard to accounts (my noble friend Lord Saltoun was also on this point) it is intended that the power in Clause 8 and Clause 31 to require accounts should be operated flexibly. The accounts will not necessarily have to be sent to London every year unless there is a permanent endowment; and even there in the case of small charities the Bill contemplates that exceptions will be made to enable accounts to be submitted at longer intervals. In other words, I can tell my noble friend the right reverend Prelate that we shall achieve flexibility, and that the provisions will be administered sensibly in that way.
On Clause 21, the Court already has power to enable a body holding a number of individual trusts to establish a common investment fund, and the power has been exercised in many cases. With regard to Clause 44, subsection (2), the exclusion from the Bill of ecclesiastical corporations does not in any way derogate from their charitable status. Ecclesiastical property which has been accepted as charitable in the past will not be affected by its exclusion from the Bill. I hope that these are the points which the right reverend Prelate raised, and I have tried to deal with them.
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There is one other aspect which comes next in the order, and that is the point on Clause 28 which my noble friend Lord Saltoun raised. If my noble friend would bear with me, I will give him the principle of Clause 28, and I will come to his point. If a charity has land which is a permanent endowment, it is bound to preserve the capital value, and since 1855 the consent of the Charity Commissioners has been required for any alienation of the land. The Committee under the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, recommended that the control of land dealings should continue, and this clause therefore carries forward this control. But—and this is the important point for my noble friend—where the charity is empowered to sell the land and to use the proceeds as income, with no obligation to preserve it, it is thought that there is no purpose in any control over such transactions, since there is no control over the discretion of the trustees in spending their income. To enact this and no more would be to leave a gaping hole in the intended control as regards functional land.
I will explain to my noble friend what I have in mind. Take the case of the village hall which I mentioned in another connection. Often the land is held on trust for sale by the conveyance, which is an English conveyancing expression, and it is seldom possible to discover from the documents of title alone whether it is intended as a permanent endowment or not. The solution adopted is to declare that the functional land shall be treated as a permanent endowment, so that the transaction is subject to the consent of the Charity Commissioners unless it is excepted by order or regulation. In my example, the land is given for a village hall. Even if the conveyancers put it on trust for sale, it is obvious that it is intended in the nature of things as a permanent endowment. If the village hall was sold, there would be no village hall, and the charity would come to an end. In these cases I think it is right that the Commissioners' consent should be required before sale.
On the other hand, there are certain large national charities, for example, which are accustomed to buying from their general funds, and selling houses for their local staff as occasion may require, and this is expendable as income. Here it would be purposeless, on the principles

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we have adopted, to require the Charity Commissioners' consent; and it is the intention that excepting regulations or orders should be made under subsection (4) so that consent will not be required. It is intended that the regulations, which will go to title of the land, should be so drawn as to specify quite clearly (perhaps by naming each of the charities concerned) what properties are excepted from the clause, so that nobody will be in any doubt as to the power to sell: and, naturally, it is intended that the regulations will be drawn up in consultation with the charities affected. The Departments concerned have already opened up consultations with some of the charities; and I hope your Lordships will agree that the principles are right. I ask my noble friend Lord Saltoun to consider what I have said. If he is still in any doubt, and if he will do me the honour of writing to me about it, I will try to deal with it; but my intention was to meet his point, and I hope I have succeeded in doing that. It is certainly my view that I have met the problem which he adumbrated to us.
LORD SALTOUN: I am much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount. I will certainly consider it.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Thank you very much. Now the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, made a number of interesting points, and I think I should like to examine them more fully. I come back for a moment to the general value, which he mentioned, of the voluntary bodies. My noble friend Lord Hawke raised the question of Clause 21, and I have mentioned that. I have also mentioned his other point about registration. I have dealt with the remarks of my noble friend Lord Baden-Powell about the Scout Movement, and I have dealt with the university point raised by my noble and learned friend Lord McNair. On that, I have given him all the assurance I can. If, on consideration, there is anything else, perhaps he will again be good enough to write to me about it.
I come now to my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross, and I would remind him on his first part, on the question of staff, that I said in my opening speech that my right honourable friend designed to have the Commissioners equipped to deal with their new problems. I will certainly bring to my right honourable
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friend's attention this specific aspect, but, though I have not had a chance of discussing the point, it seams to me that it was covered by the general view which I was asked to express, that they would be properly equipped to deal with the job. So far as I can see, the assurance which he asked for on Clause 30 seems to be a reasonable one, but perhaps he would not tie me to that, and if I have to modify it in any way I will write and let him know.
My noble friend Lord Hylton spoke to me more in sorrow than in anger and reminded me of the lines that Mr. Browning wrote in The Lost Leader. When my noble friend referred to the work I had done in the past in getting rid of regulations, it seemed to me that he rather suggested that I had fallen from my own high standard over this Bill. I assure him that I have not. To continue with Browning, some bade us crouch and the rest aspire. Let me look at this once again. My noble friend will observe that apart from the power of appointment—and, after all, someone has to be responsible for the appointment of persons paid from public funds—there are only the powers in Clause 17 (6) and Clause 21. I cannot remember—and I have dealt with these matters for 20 years—where Ministerial responsibility rode on a lighter rein. There are not even powers of general direction in the Home Secretary, only the powers under Clause 17 (6), which deal with a wholly abnormal situation which might arise, and the provisions for ordering an inquiry.
With regard to the Commissioners themselves, they work with the agreement of the trustees, and again there is a smaller element of compulsion—if indeed one can find an element of compulsion, except for ordinary inquiries. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, I have mentioned that the local authorities can act only where there is consent. I certainly do not have the impression that this is a Bill which has authoritarian aspects. The whole intention of the Bill is to constitute a partnership. I would ask my noble friend to consider whether it is not a necessary concomitant of 1960 that there should be partnership between voluntary effort and State performance. I do not see how we can say, in 1960, that there must be no State action. While he and I have battled on behalf of the individual, we

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have always realised that the modern State must infringe rights to some extent, for schools, factories, nuclear power stations and other things.
The noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, has stated the problem, the problem which I have tried to approach in presenting this Bill and with which my right honourable friend has tried to grapple in drafting it—namely, how can we produce a partnership which does not derogate from the position of either partner? I could not feel more strongly the need for voluntary effort—for three reasons. The first is that voluntary effort is essential for pioneering work in every social field. Voluntary effort is able to take the more adventurous course and to take a risk in doing things which the State or the local authority effort could not do. For that reason it is valuable.
Secondly, I still think that in many cases voluntary effort can give, if not a higher standard of work, then a greater feeling of personal warmth and interest. It starts with an advantage there. Thirdly, I have no hesitation in saying that voluntary effort is essential, if we are going to maintain and restore the moral standards of our people. Only if they engage in voluntary effort are our standards going to be worth anything at all. Therefore I assure my noble friend that I have an intense belief in the voluntary side of this partnership, but I feel that we have to face the problem of this partnership of effort. On the whole, I think that your Lordships believe that this Bill does face the problem realistically and sensibly, and I commend it to your Lordships.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, before the noble and learned Viscount finishes, perhaps he will ease my uneasiness and tell me whether blind charities will have to re-register in different form, and whether public company charities will have to re-register in different form, or whether the present registration is sufficient.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am sorry that I have not been able to get specific instructions on that point. It seems to me that it would be unusual if blind charities had to reregister and I do not see why a charity, so long as it is charitable, cannot be run as a company. I cannot see how the
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Bill makes any difference. I have been chairman of a charitable educational company and I cannot see anything in the Bill which will alter that. But again, perhaps my noble friend will allow me the escape clause, in case I have not quite appreciated his point. I will write to him as soon as I can.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Viscount very much.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ROAD TRAFFIC BILL [H.L.]
8.0 p.m.
Order of the Day read for the House to be in Committee on report from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: I have been informed that the single Amendment which stood in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, will not now be moved. That being so, it remains only for the Committee to deal with the Amendments made by the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move that the Amendments made by the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills be agreed to.
Moved, That the Amendments made by the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills be agreed to.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

MEXBOROUGH AND SWINTON TRACTION BILL [H.L.]
Committed to a Select Committee.

ROYAL COLLEGE OF PHYSICIANS OF LONDON BILL [H.L.]
Committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee.
House adjourned at two minutes past eight o'clock.