Sitting of 29 February 1960

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  HOSPITALS

    Miss Betty Huffer
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Health why Miss Betty Huffer was compulsorily detained at the Littlemore Mental Hospital for 21 years; for how many of those years she was detained solely on account of her mental condition; and, since she has become decertified as the result of escaping from the hospital and remaining free for the statutory period of 14 days, what action is contemplated to check up on her sanity.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Derek Walker-Smith): Because she required care and treatment on account of her mental condition. No question appears to arise at present of any fresh examination of that condition.
    Mr. Dodds: Is not the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the medical superintendent has said that this lady could have been out a good many years earlier if there were some other place to which she could have gone? Is it not remarkable that she should have been out for fourteen days and that because she was out for that period after nearly a quarter of a century she is now deemed not to need any care? Is that not a coincidence?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The hon. Gentleman, who pays a lot of attention to these matters, I am sure will be aware that the fourteen-day provision is contained in Section 85 of the Lunacy Act, 1890. He will also know that we have substituted a new Mental Health Act for all these provisions. This lady could have
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    had her discharge earlier under the provisions of Section 72 had the appropriate application been made, but it was not.
    Mr. Dodds: Is it not a fact that many people have no other place to go to unless the authorities find a place for them? Why should the taxpayer have to bear the cost of £8 or £9 a week to keep such people in when they could be out, as this good lady is out, working in the outside world?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: If the hon. Gentleman is seeking to make the point that it would be a good thing to expand the provision of homes and hostels by local authorities, I made it clear in my answer to him on 1st February that I am much in favour of this development but, as I have said, it will take some little time.

    Littlemore Mental Hospital (Patients)
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Health how many patients compulsorily detained at the Littlemore Mental Hospital, could now be released on licence or discharged if places in suitable homes or hostels were available for them.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: None, Sir.
    Mr. Dodds: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman not aware that a second patient escaped on the same day and that this second patient is also deemed not now to require care? Is it not remarkable that two people should have escaped and that these two should be fit for the outside world, while all those who remain still need care and attention?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: No. The hon. Gentleman's Question relates to those patients who are "compulsorily detained". There are, in fact, only nine such patients at the Littlemore Mental Hospital, and my answer refers to them.
    Mr. Dodds: Is it not a fact that many others who are not compulsorily detained are inside the walls of mental hospitals because there are no places for them outside?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Some patients at the Littlemore Mental Hospital who are not compulsorily detained could probably go to other accommodation if it were available. I have recently agreed to the acquisition of a house in Oxford

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    to be used as an annexe to this hospital for this purpose, and it may be that we shall be able to do more in that direction.

    Radiographers, Newcastle Region
    Mr. Montgomeryasked the Minister of Health if the Newcastle Regional Hospital Board has drawn his attention to the shortage of radiographers in the region; and whether he will take steps to secure more radiographers.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Edith Pitt): Although the board has not made specific representations to my right hon. and learned Friend, both the board and he are well aware of the shortage. The numbers of trained and student radiographers have improved during the last two years, and further improvement is expected to follow the increases in salaries and training grants made in the course of last year.

    Geriatric Patients
    Mr. Hollandasked the Minister of Health if he will take steps to ensure that existing geriatric single-sex hospitals are provided with accommodation for married couples.
    Miss Pitt: My information is that it is uncommon for a husband and wife to need treatment in a geriatric hospital at the same time; but if my hon. Friend can give me details of any case of hardship due to prolonged separation in different hospitals, I will certainly look into the matter.
    Mr. Holland: Is my hon. Friend not aware that it often happens that when a wife who has been nursing her husband herself comes in need of treatment the two are sent to hospitals many miles apart? Will she not agree that at this day, when by custom women have the right to choose their partners, she should initiate steps to enable married couples to stay together in the evening of their lives?
    Miss Pitt: I entirely agree. In the case of those needing active geriatric treatment, the average stay in hospital is only 40 days. I think my hon. Friend must also be thinking of the chronic sick cases where, if it is possible for them to be in the same hospital, that is
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    arranged by the hospital authorities. However, I did offer to look at any particular case, and I will gladly do so.

    Domiciliary Consultative Service
    Sir G. Nicholsonasked the Minister of Health (1) if he will summarise the replies he has received from regional hospital boards in answer to his request of February, 1959, that they should give him the factual information on which he could base a decision whether to institute an inquiry into the operation of the domiciliary consultative service; and how this information compares with the evidence from hospital authorities reported by the Select Committee on Estimates of 1956–57.
    (2) what decisions he has taken on the recommendations made by the Select Committee on Estimates of last Session in their Fifth Special Report, regarding an inquiry into the operation of the domiciliary consultative service; and what form this inquiry will take.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The replies from boards revealed little information indicating abuse of the service, and in such rare or doubtful cases as transpired action was taken with a view to putting it right. The replies also revealed the difficulty of obtaining factual information of any abuse in present circumstances. As this aspect of the consultant services among others was before the Royal Commission on Doctors' and Dentists' Remuneration, I decided to await their Report before proceedings; and now that the Report has been received, I shall consider what action is appropriate in this as in other respects.
    Sir G. Nicholson: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the Select Committee on Estimates found considerable evidence of abuse of the service? Is he also aware that his Department agreed to an inquiry in March, 1958, but sought the facts from the very people who had criticised the service, and that not until the matter was reopened by the Select Committee did he agree to find out the facts from regional boards? The Select Committee then recommended another inquiry. Does the evidence which my right hon. and learned Friend has received contradict

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    the evidence given to the Select Committee on Estimates? Why is there this continual delay in answering what really was rather a serious charge on the part of the Select Committee?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: We got the replies of the regional hospital boards and collated them in June of last year. The reports, in their effect, are summarised in what I have said in answer to the Question. That is, they revealed little information to show any of the abuses in the service which had been suggested to the Select Committee. The individual cases which appeared have been followed up. I will certainly consider whether it is possible to get any further and fuller information than we have already got from the regional boards, but that is how the matter stands at present.
    Dr. Summerskill: As the recommendations of the Select Committee on Estimates cannot be reconciled with the recommendations of the Royal Commission on the remuneration of doctors, can the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell the House—hon. Members would be very interested to know—to which group he attaches most importance?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The choice of Paris pales in comparison with the difficulty of the choice which the right hon. Lady puts to me. I view with very great respect both the recommendations of the Royal Commission and the observations of the Select Committee on Estimates. I do not think there is any necessarily inherent contradiction. The Royal Commission made no recommendation as to the specific control of the service but said that no change should be made in the circumstances in which payments should be made.

    Meneage Hospital, West Cornwall (Lift)
    Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Health when a lift is to be installed in Meneage Hospital in west Cornwall.
    Miss Pitt: I am informed that the South Western Regional Hospital Board recognises the need for a lift at this hospital but cannot yet say when it will be able to include its provision in their capital programme.
    Mr. Hayman: Will the hon. Lady bear in mind that this is a long-stay hospital for the elderly chronic sick which serves
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    most of west Cornwall, that it was formerly a workhouse and that many times nurses and sisters have to help patients up and down stairs? Is it not time the regional board was asked to have the lift installed quickly? Will the hon. Lady look into the matter?
    Miss Pitt: The board has a number of such hospitals in its area. I know that it has this matter very much in mind because my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. G. R. Howard), in whose constituency the hospital lies, is repeatedly pressing the matter upon the board.

    Architects and Engineers
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Health how many posts for architects and for engineers, respectively, remain unfilled by regional hospital boards.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: These establishments are not subject to specific control by my Department and, consequently, there is no routine collection of current figures. A special inquiry in 1958 showed that on 1st April, 1958, there were 16 vacancies for architects against a total establishment of 152 and 42 vacancies for engineers against a total establishment of 128. I regret that no more recent figures are available.
    Mr. Boyden: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there has been a very great deterioration in the circumstances since then and that the increased programme of building requires many more architects and engineers? What does he propose to do to provide recruitment not only for the future but to make up the present existing deficiencies?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: It may be that the figures have already deteriorated since 1958, the latest year for which I have them available. I attach importance to this question in the context of the increased hospital building programme. The precise rates of remuneration will be determined by arbitration, but, of course, the management side offered a substantial increase.

    Mental Hospitals (Staff Accommodation)
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Health how many members of the staff

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    of mental hospitals are living in permanent quarters in the side wards, or such similar unsatisfactory accommodation, of mental hospitals.
    Miss Pitt: I regret that this information is not available.
    Mr. Boyden: Does not the hon. Lady think it is about time that this information was available? This is the second Question I have put and had the same answer—that the information is not available. This matter very much concerns a number of humble employees of the hospital service. Will the hon. Lady see that the information becomes available and that steps are taken?
    Miss Pitt: No central records are kept, but as I said in reply to the hon. Member's other Question, if he has a specific case in mind I will be most grateful if he will give me the details, in which case I will look into it.
    Dr. Summerskill: Is this not the kind of information that the superintendent of a mental hospital would include in his periodic report?
    Miss Pitt: I would expect the information to be available to the superintendent, but it is not co-ordinated centrally throughout the country.

    Nursing and Midwifery Staff
    Mr. Hollandasked the Minister of Health if he will give the latest available figures for the recruitment of hospital nursing and midwifery staff.
    Miss Pitt: I am glad to state that there were significant increases in the total numbers of all categories of hospital nursing and midwifery staff in England and Wales in the twelve months ended 30th September, 1959. The whole-time staff increased by 8,010, or five per cent., and the part-time staff by 611, of 1½ per cent.
    In particular in mental and mental deficiency hospitals the whole-time male nursing staff increased by 1,071, or 7 per cent., and the whole-time female nursing staff by 2,222, or over 15 per cent.
    With permission, I will circulate the main figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Holland: Can my hon. Friend give me an assurance that that encouraging trend is reflected in the midwifery
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    service, about which there has been some concern of late?
    Miss Pitt: Yes, I am happy to say that there has been some progress in the recruitment of midwives. The number of full-time midwives increased by 200, or 3·7 per cent.; the number of part-time midwives increased by 51, or 3·6 per cent.; perhaps even more encouraging, the number of pupil midwives increased by 529, or 13·6 per cent.
    Following are the main figures:
    The numbers of whole-time and part-time nursing and midwifery staff of the various categories in all National Health Service hospitals in England and Wales at 30th September, 1958, and 30th September, 1959, and the increases between these dates were as follows:—

    Category

    Numbers at 30th September, 1958

    Numbers at 30th September, 1959

    Increase

    Trained Nurses:

    Whole-time

    51,188

    53,311

    2,123

    Part-time

    13,172

    13,271

    99

    Student Nurses

    53,899

    54,959

    1,060

    Enrolled Assistant Nurses:

    Whole-time

    9,580

    9,960

    380

    Part-time

    6,175

    6,175

    —

    Pupil Assistant Nurses:

    Whole-time

    5,103

    5,799

    696

    Part-time

    49

    90

    41

    Other Nursing Staff:

    Whole-time

    23,561

    26,583

    3,022

    Part-time

    20,378

    20,798

    420

    Midwives:

    Whole-time

    5,289

    5,489

    200

    Part-time

    1,402

    1,453

    51

    Pupil Midwives:

    3,889

    4,418

    529

    Total:

    Whole-time

    152,509

    160,519

    8,010

    Part-time

    41,176

    41,787

    611

    Teaching Hospital Expenditure (Report)
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Minister of Health what reply he has sent to the Comptroller and Auditor-General's comments, on pages vi and vii of his report on the Civil Appropriation Accounts, 1958–59, Classes I-V, on the abortive expenditure of £41,109 upon the reconstruction of the operating department of a teaching hospital, which had to be abandoned; and on what assurances the scheme was approved.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I think that perhaps it would be in accordance with the wishes of this House that comment on this Report should await the normal process of investigation by Parliament through the Committee of Public Accounts of matters brought to their notice by the Comptroller and Auditor-General.
    Mr. Robinson: Could the right hon. and learned Gentleman say when the reply is expected? This is quite an extraordinary case. It has been reported on by the Comptroller and Auditor-General. It was a development originally scheduled to cost £50,000. Then it went up to £200,000. It was then found that the building was not strong enough to support the existing stories, let alone an additional storey, and £40,000 of public money was wasted. Is it unreasonable to ask when the right hon. and learned Gentleman is going to send in his reply?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: This is following the ordinary course of matters reported on by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, The Public Accounts Committee will consider the matter and examine officers of my Ministry about this report. When the Committee has completed its investigation, it reports to the House. That is the normal traditional procedure, and I would be reluctant by any Answer of mine to trespass on that procedure.
    Sir G. Nicholson: Does my right hon. and learned Friend hold the view that a Minister is inhibited from answering strictures or comment by the Comptroller and Auditor-General until the Public Accounts Committee has made its own inquiry? It does not necessarily follow that the Committee will inquire into this particular point—it may not have time. In any case, the report has already been made to this House.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: This is a nice point of Parliamentary constitutional procedure which, perhaps, would be more appropriately addressed to you, Mr. Speaker. There is, so far as I am aware, no legal inhibition against a Minister answering a Question while a matter which is the subject of a report by the Comptroller and Auditor-General is awaiting examination in the Committee. Therefore, the hon. Mem-
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    ber for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson) was perfectly correct in putting this Question down, but I think the ordinary procedure is that I await the conclusion of the Public Accounts Committee's proceedings before ventilating the matter here.
    Sir G. Nicholson: On a point of order. My right hon. and learned Friend did bring your name into this, Mr. Speaker. Have you any comments?
    Mr. Speaker: I do not want to rule on it now without having looked into it. I think that the House would like to get on.

  MINISTRY OF HEALTH

    Drugs
    Mr. F. Noel-Bakerasked the Minister of Health (1) whether, in view of the increasing number of habit-forming drugs now advertised and on sale to the public without prescription, he will make it obligatory on manufacturers of such products to print a full declaration of their contents, in terms comprehensible to the layman, not only on the container as at present, but also on the wrapper or box and on all advertisements and literature relating to such products;
    (2) whether, in view of the dangerous substances contained in such products, he will seek power to extend to all products appertaining to health which are on sale to the general public the regulations governing the declaration of contents of proprietary medicines and drugs.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: These suggestions would require new legislation and I will arrange for them to be examined in the review of legislation relating to the control of medicinal substances, which, as I explained in my reply to the hon. Member and the hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Driberg) on 7th December, is now being undertaken.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: While thanking the Minister warmly for that reply, may I ask him whether he agrees that there is something quite illogical about the present legislation which obliges manufacturers to put in very small print on the actual container a description of the contents while saying nothing about it on what the consumer normally sees when

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    he buys the product, namely, the outside wrapper? Will he use what influence he can to bring some logic into this legislation, and extend it?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: These products are governed by Section 11 of the Pharmacy and Medicines Act, 1941, which, as the hon. Gentleman says, deals really with the containers and the labels. On the wider point of advertisements, the Working Party will have these points in mind in the review which it is making.
    Dr. Summerskill: While this proposal would be very useful to the initiated, will not the Minister agree that it would still be possible for unscrupulous drug houses to play a confidence trick on the public unless all these drugs had a satisfactory clinical trial?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The hon. Member's Question uses the phrase "in terms comprehensible to the layman" and I am not sure that it will not be beyond ingenuity to describe all these things in such language. Laymen in doubt should consult a doctor or a pharmacist. I referred to the question of clinical trials in an answer that I gave last Monday when I said that I was considering this matter and would make a statement in due course.

    Chiropodists
    Mr. Wattsasked the Minister of Health whether, when giving his approval to schemes submitted to him under Section 28 of the National Health Service Act, 1946, by local authorities for chiropody services in their areas, he will make it a condition of his approval that existing chiropodists' private surgeries shall not be excluded from such schemes.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: While the use of chiropodists' own premises was included in the guidance which has been issued to local health authorities, I do not feel that I would be justified in making it a condition of my approval of their arrangements for a service the cost of which falls on them.
    Mr. Watts: Will any compensation be given to chiropodists who have been forced to close their private consulting rooms as a result of this free exclusive competition? Also, once the services are
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    clinic-based, in what way will the arrangement for a free choice of chiropodist be allowed to patients?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Most schemes by local authorities allow for the use of chiropodists' surgeries, although some authorities propose to provide the service exclusively from their own clinical premises or by domiciliary visits. Provided the service is satisfactory, I think I must leave the matter to the discretion of local authorities. I know of no cases of people going out of practice. There is a great deal of chiropody work to be done, and our difficulty so far has been the shortage of people to do it.
    Mr. Watts: Has my right hon. and learned Friend forgotten the letter which I sent him saying that a constituent of mine had gone out of practice and asking whether he would get compensation? My right hon. and learned Friend wrote to me saying that no compensation could be given but gave no reasons for this.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: There is no money out of which compensation can be given in such cases. It is possible for chiropodists in private practice to work on a part-time or sessional basis at a local health authority clinic. In other words, even if they cannot carry out the local authority service from their own premises, it does not necessarily debar them from participation.

    Convalescent Information Bureau
    Mr. Pavittasked the Minister of Health if he will establish a convalescent information bureau to advise on the placing of patients needing convalescent treatment.
    Miss Pitt: The proposal to establish a bureau of this kind for the London hospital regions is shortly to be discussed with the regional boards concerned.
    Mr. Pavitt: In thanking the hon. Lady for that reply, I should like to express the hope that the discussion will be fruitful. Is she aware that, while giant strides have been made in diagnosis, prognosis, prevention and treatment, the convalescent service has been more or less at a standstill for the last fifty

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    years? Will the Minister at least make a start on this problem by co-ordinating the demand with the resources of supply?
    Miss Pitt: The establishment of a convalescent information bureau for the Metropolitan region was recommended by the working party on convalescent treatment with the idea of giving hospital almoners information on the beds available. The hon. Member will be glad to learn that the meeting which I mentioned is to take place on 17th March.

    Doctors, Newcastle (Complaints)
    Mr. McKayasked the Minister of Health how many cases have been notified to the Medical Council in Newcastle-on-Tyne during the last three years, in which patients or their relatives have complained to the council about the negligence of their local doctor; and how many of these complaints have been upheld as justifiable.
    Miss Pitt: The Executive Councils for Northumberland and for Newcastle-upon-Tyne have in the last three years considered under Service Committee procedure a total of 12 cases arising from complaints by or on behalf of patients against doctors. Of the nine where the procedure has been completed, the doctor was found to have failed to comply with his terms of service in one case.
    Mr. McKay: Does not that show what a wonderful set of people we have working in the medical profession? At the same time, the impression one gets from people who make complaints is that they do not get a fair hearing on the spot. Could the hon. Lady say how many doctors and how many laymen are on the council? Can a patient's representative cross-question any of the doctors hearing a case?
    Miss Pitt: I am not able to give the details of the procedure, but I am able to tell the hon. Gentleman that a person who makes complaint has the right of appeal to my right hon. and learned Friend. Two such cases are now pending in the area in which the hon. Gentleman is interested.

    Poliomyelitis Vaccination (Payment)
    Mr. Pavittasked the Minister of Health if he is satisfied with the present system of payment to doctors in connection with poliomyelitis vaccination; if he is aware of the position which has arisen where inoculations actually given by local health authority doctors attract payment to a factory doctor who is already paid for his services by the firm employing him; if he has examined the case submitted to him by the hon. Member for Willesden, West; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Such payments are, in general, governed by agreements between the representatives of the local health authorities and the medical profession. Arrangements for the participation of factory doctors, who have made a valuable contribution to the poliomyelitis vaccination programme, vary according to individual circumstances, and we have not yet completed inquiries into the case submitted by the hon. Member. I will write to him about it as soon as possible.
    Mr. Pavitt: While thanking the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his promise in this case, may I ask him whether he would agree that it is about time we got rid of this absurd fiction that a doctor is not paid for medical work but for filling in a card? If a clerk fills in the card in the cases which I have submitted to the Minister, should not the clerk be paid for filling it in, since the doctor only signs it? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman take advantage of the negotiations which will inevitably arise from the Royal Commission's Report to do away with all these anomalies in relation to poliomyelitis vaccination, both by factory doctors and general practitioners?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The hon. Member has raised some wide points, but I will certainly look at them. It is the medical practitioner who gets the 5s. If I were a medical practitioner, I would think it more important that I should get the money than under what precise head it was alleged to be due.
    Dr. Summerskill: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman satisfied that it is fair to practitioners to give 5s. for the first two innoculations and another 5s. for the third?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I think that the rate for the job is fair. We can look at that matter, but the main part of the vaccination programme has been carried out with great good will on every side.

    Private Patients (Medicine)
    Dr. Glynasked the Minister of Health, in view of the statement contained in his Department's official circular entitled the New National Health Service, published in February, 1948, that everyone could use any part of the National Health Service, why drugs are not available to all patients, whether treated privately or under the National Health Service.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The provision of drugs cannot properly be regarded as a separate part of the National Health Service. It is an ancillary part of the general medical service and this is recognised in Section 38 of the National Health Service Act, 1946.
    Dr. Glyn: While thanking my right hon. and learned Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he would not agree that his Department is bound by the pamphlet which it issued stating that patients could use all or any part of the Service? Secondly, since the Service is already mixed with amenity beds where a hospital provides the right of direct access and private patients can have X-rays, is there any justification for withholding this service from the public?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: If the White Paper and the circular are read as a whole, they will be seen to make the same point as is provided in Section 38 of the National Health Service Act, which is the legislative authority on this matter at presented. Briefly, subsection (1) of that Section imposes a duty on executive councils to make arrangements for the supply of drugs and medicines to people who are receiving general medical services—that is to say, those within the National Health Service—as I think my hon. Friend will see clearly if he will refresh his memory with the provisions of subsection (1) of Section 38. Therefore, any change would require fresh legislation.
    Mr. K. Robinson: Does the Minister appreciate that his Answer was precisely the same as an Answer of my right hon.
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    Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) to a similar Question many years ago? In view of that, will he do what he can to stop these wild charges of breach of faith on the part of my right hon. Friend in the interests of this campaign for free drugs for private patients?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: It is always possible, as I know very well from professional experience, for people to take different views about the interpretation of Acts of Parliament, but I should have thought that Section 38 in this context was as clear as these things can reasonably be expected to be.
    Dr. Glyn: Would not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that this pamphlet, which was issued in between the Act being made law and its coming into effect, directly contradicts the Act?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: No. I would not have thought so. If the pamphlet to which my hon. Friend referred is the circular, the circular was a popular document containing a paraphrase of the statutory provisions and, therefore, would not be set out with the same nicety of language as we expect in an Act of Parliament. However, I do not think that there is any contradiction beween the two.

    Medicines (Inter-Departmental Working Party)
    Mr. Skeffingtonasked the Minister of Health whether the Inter-Departmental Working Party on legislation about medicines will receive evidence from the Medical Panel of the Advertising Inquiry Committee.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply on 22nd February to the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker).
    Mr. Skeffington: Unfortunately, I do not know what that reply was. In view of the fact that the Medical Panel has already received very disquieting information from quite a number of reputable bodies associated with this inquiry, will the Minister reconsider his decision if it was unfavourable from the point of view I am putting?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The hon. Member is putting a pessimistic hypothesis. I did say that the Committee concerned had received an invitation to submit a memorandum.
    Mr. Skeffingtonasked the Minister of Health whether he will revise regulations governing the declaration of contents of proprietary medicines to bring within them products on direct sale to the public containing dangerous substances.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Section 11 of the Pharmacy and Medicines Act, 1941, already prohibits the sale by retail of any article consisting of or comprising a substance recommended as a medicine unless the composition is disclosed.
    Mr. Skeffington: Is the Minister aware, as I am sure he is, that there are still a number of remedies, many of which are available in connection with slimming, and some forms of tranquilisers, whose names I do not want to mention and so advertise now, which are considered by many people to be rather dangerous? Will he have another look at this?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: My understanding is that at any rate the general run of tranquilisers and stimulants, in so far as they are recommended as medicines, do come within the ambit of Section 11 of this Act.

    Superannuation Contributions
    Dr. Kingasked the Minister of Health whether he will reconsider his decision that, as from 1st April, 1960, those who voluntarily leave the staff of the National Health Service will receive no interest on the superannuation payments they have made.
    Mr. C. Royleasked the Minister of Health to what extent he now proposes that interest will no longer be paid on returned superannuation contributions of officers leaving the National Health Service.
    Mr. McKayasked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the discontent of large numbers of the National Health Service staff, who were compelled to join the Superannuation Scheme at 18 years of age or over on a contributory basis and were informed that if they left voluntarily they would have their contributions returned plus interest, on being informed that a regulation is to be made, with effect from 1st April, 1960, to abolish the payment of interest; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Minister of Health if he will now reconsider his proposal to amend the National Health Service (Superannuation) Regulations in such a way that officers who leave the service voluntarily will no longer receive accrued interest on their returned contributions.
    Mr. Kelleyasked the Minister of Health if he is prepared to amend the draft National Health Service (Superannuation) (Amendment) Regulations, 1960, in order to make provision for the payment of interest on all contributions made before 31st March, 1960, by persons who voluntarily withdraw from the service at any future date.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I am at present considering further representations I have received from the interests concerned.
    Dr. King: I am glad to hear what the Minister has said, but is he aware that while this change may be justifiable from the point of view of new entrants coming into the staff of the National Health Service, if he insists on making a change for the older ones he will he breaking faith with the members of his staff?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I will certainly hear what the hon. Member has said in mind, but we have on the other hand to consider the general context of this, which is that nearly £80 million of the actuarial deficit is being found by the taxpayer, and this proposal is the only contribution which the employee is being asked to make and amounts to a little under £1 million.
    Mr. McKay: Why is the Minister selecting this particular group of staff of the National Health Service for worsened conditions? Is he altering the conditions of any other section of the staff of the Service? One would have expected better conditions, particularly as that is being considered for the highest paid section within the National Health Service, that is, the doctors. Why is the Minister in these circumstances reducing or trying to reduce the conditions of this section?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: This arises out of the actuarial deficit which the Government Actuary found to exist at 31st March, 1955, in the National Health Service superannuation scheme for England and Wales. Over £70 million has

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    been found for this purpose, which is a generous thing on the part of the taxpayer towards the employees. If this proposal is proceeded with at the end of the consideration, it will, of course, only bring this scheme into line with the normal local government scheme arrangements.
    Mr. Robinson: At the same time, will it not bring it out of line with the pension provisions in the nationalised industries, and since this is going to produce only about £1 million, spread, I gather, over about 20 years, is it worth the Minister's losing the good will of the Health Service employees for such a small sum?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: What the hon. Member has suggested is a point I should like to check before committing myself to an answer, though it may well be the case that the nationalised industries operate in the way that he suggests. On the second part of his supplementary question, I appreciate the force of his argument about the smallness of the sum, but he in turn will, I am sure, recognise that if it had been a large sum then the argument could have been put the other way, that owing to the largeness of the sum it was of an oppressive nature and for that reason ought to be reconsidered.
    Mr. Marsh: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman not agree that, in view of the fact that all these staff on engagement are issued with an abstract of the National Health Service Regulations which tells them quite clearly that if they retire before the 10 years are up they will receive interest on their returned contributions, this would be, if not legally, at least morally a breach of contract?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: That is the point I am studying now, which is the strongest point which can be made for the hon. Member's side of the case.

    Smoking (Lung Cancer)
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Health what further action he will take to publicise the connection between cigarette smoking and lung cancer.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Publicity on this matter is a continuing responsibility for local health authorities as part of their arrangements for health education.
    Mr. Lipton: Is the Minister aware that, following the rather feeble and ineffectual lead of the Government in this matter, the campaign of the local health authorities is in many cases either feeble or non-existent? Will he not try to get a little bit of conscience money out of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Tobacco Duty to help to counteract the very expensive propaganda of the tobacco companies, which has resulted in an increase in cigarette smoking, despite all the medical evidence showing its disadvantages?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: No, I cannot accept the strictures of the hon. Gentleman. The object of this publicity is to make people aware that smokers of cigarettes are more likely to get lung cancer than non-smokers. I am satisfied that most people in this country—indeed, nearly all the people in this country—understand that point.

    Hypnotism
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Health whether he will introduce legislation to ban the use of hypnotism except by qualified medical practitioners.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I do not consider that such legislation is necessary.
    Mr. Lipton: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware of the growing exploitation by all kinds of quacks of hypnotic methods, which cannot possibly be in the public interest? Have not things come to a pretty pass if school children are being hypnotised for market research purposes to find out what kind of toys they want for Christmas? Has not the time come for the Minister to take this matter rather more seriously than he has done hitherto?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I do not know that I can share the hon. Gentleman's expert knowledge on quack methods, but I will certainly seek to emulate the appropriate seriousness which he brings to this important subject.

    Spectacles
    Commander Purseyasked the Minister of Health if he will arrange with the authorities of the House to display in the House of Commons the present complete range of 41 National Health

    821
    Service spectacle frames, with their alternative trade colours, and prices, in three display cases, for children and normal and abnormal adults.
    Miss Pitt: My right hon. and learned Friend is arranging for display of the range of spectacles in the Upper Waiting Hall for a week from Monday, 7th March.
    Commander Pursey: Might I say "thank you" for that and then ask whether the Minister will also arrange to show the proposed new range in colours of National Health Service frames in this House before he makes his decision, so that hon. Members will see what their constituents will have to pay for under the National Health Service scheme?
    Miss Pitt: I told the hon. and gallant Gentleman in last Monday's debate that we were reviewing the frames, but that review can take place only as a result of the examination of prescriptions in November and we should not be in a position by next Monday to put Vie new frames on show. I have, however, also asked that the prices should be attached to the frames. I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman will be pleasantly surprised at the variety and colour shown.
    Commander Purseyasked the Minister of Health whether he will consider taking steps to encourage welfare services committees, women's voluntary services, and citizen's advice bureaux to inform 250,000 people with Woolworth spectacles that they can obtain National Health Service spectacles for £1 10s. 3d.
    Miss Pitt: My right hon. and learned Friend will bear in mind this suggestion in considering the supply of information to members of the public.
    Commander Pursey: Is there not something wrong with the Ministry of Health publicity when after 12 years of the National Health Service scheme hundreds of thousands of people still do not know that they can get a free sight test, lenses at 10s. each and a perfectly good frame for 30s.—the best spectacle proposition in the world? Will the Minister arrange for further information to be promulgated so that these people may take advantage of the National Health Service scheme?
    Miss Pitt: I do not accept the first part of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's supplementary question. I am sure that the average person knows that he can have a sight test and glasses under the National Health Service. What he may not know is the full details of the range available, and I would not expect him to until he was in need of glasses. However, I promised in last Monday's debate that my right hon. and learned Friend would consider the information available, and I repeat that promise.
    Miss Lee: Will the hon. Lady consider making it obligatory for all opticians to have on show the full range of National Health Service spectacles?
    Miss Pitt: My right hon. and learned Friend is considering whether we should request opticians to display the range of frames, but whether that would go so far as to be obligatory is another question.
    Hon. Members: Why?
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Minister of Health to what extent he has studied recent methods of improving eyesight without the use of spectacles.
    Miss Pitt: If the hon. Member has in mind systems of exercises to strengthen the eye muscles. I am advised that, while these have proved of benefit in cases where the muscles are weak, as in squint, there is no reliable evidence that defects of vision such as myopia or astigmatism can be beneficially treated by these means.
    Mr. Hughes: Has the hon. Lady noticed the conduct of her right hon. and learned Friend during Questions? He has a pair of spectacles which he takes off and puts on, and the answers he gives are far better when he does not wear his spectacles. That also applies to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
    Is the hon. Lady aware that there is considerable literature by enlightened people now who are sceptical about the use of spectacles? Will she consider appointing a committee without any opticians or people with vested interests on it so that this matter can be properly investigated and hon. Members will be able to see their Order Papers without wearing spectacles?
    Miss Pitt: The hon. Member does not credit those of us who are long-sighted with the facility to read without recourse to glasses. Seriously, however, there is no new evidence available, so far as I am aware. If the hon. Member is aware of any, I am sure my right hon. and learned Friend would be ready to consider it.

    Hearing Aids (Batteries)
    Mr. Hiltonasked the Minister of Health what arrangements are made for people living in rural areas and who use hearing aids to change worn-out batteries.
    Miss Pitt: Batteries for valve aids may be exchanged by or on behalf of patients at selected hospitals and other centres of which there are over 650 in England and Wales.
    Mr. Hilton: Does the hon. Lady not agree that people living in rural areas—I have in mind, in particular, old-age pensioners who live sometimes as far as twenty miles from hospitals or centres where these batteries can be exchanged—are at a disadvantage, since they are expected to pay the postage when sending in their batteries for exchange? It is a hardship. Would the hon. Lady look into the possibility of refunding at least the postage involved when sending these batteries for exchange? It would not cost the country a lot of money.
    Miss Pitt: There are seven centres available in the hon. Member's constituency. I will not take the time of the House by reading the list, but I will send it to him. Other means are available; for instance, patients themselves do not necessarily have to collect their batteries, for this can be done on their behalf by an individual, providing they take in the old battery. I am advised that this is also done by voluntary societies, who collect a number of batteries. There is, in fact, help for a number of people who live at a distance.

    Ophthalmic Service
    Mr. Russellasked the Minister of Health if he will state the approximate number of patients who have had their eyes examined or re-examined in England and Wales under the Supplementary Ophthalmic Service of the National
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    Health Service since its inception, and the number of complaints about the service received by his Department and the Ophthalmic Services Committee.
    Miss Pitt: Up to 31st December, 1959, some 56 million sight tests had been given under the Supplementary Ophthalmic Sevices in England and Wales. Up to the same date, 439 cases had been investigated under the Service Committee procedure and the results reported to the Minister.
    Mr. Russell: Does not my hon. Friend's answer show that on the whole the opticians and ophthalmologists who operate this service have done a very good job for the public and satisfied most of the patients?
    Miss Pitt: I agree that complaints about this branch of the Service are fewer than about any other. At the same time, I must make the point that doctors, for example, have a 24-hour obligation to the Service.
    Lord Balniel: In view of the allegations made in the House last week against certain members of this profession, will my hon. Friend conduct an inquiry into them and publish the results?
    Miss Pitt: I will pass that question to my right hon. and learned Friend, but in the course of last Monday's debate, I was able to reply to some of the allegations and to show that there was not nearly so much substance in them as the hon. and gallant Member for Hull, East (Commander Pursey) suggested in the course of his speech.
    Dr. Summerskill: Is the hon. Lady satisfied that a service can be judged by the number of poor and ignorant people, who do not know the authority to whom they can complain, who complain? If that was the criterion in any service, we would not move forward at all.
    Miss Pitt: The test of a service is the number of people who use it, and the figures I have given show that it is very widely used, and used over and over again by people who go back for further tests. It would be wrong to be entirely satisfied with that in any service. One can always look for improvements and we are willing to do so.

  MEDICAL RESEARCH

    Radioactivity
    Mrs. Butlerasked the Minister of Health, as representing the Minister for Science, what information has been made public in this country with regard to radioactive particles of measurable size found in fall-out in Great Britain by scientists advising the Government; what official studies have been made of possible special biological effects in man of such concentrated radioactivity; and what are the radioactive elements present in these particles.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Information on radioactive particles in fall-out at that date was given in Appendix M of the Medical Research Council's "Report on the Hazards to Man of Nuclear and Allied Radiations", 1956, which will be revised and brought up to date later this year. This Report states that the concentration of these particles in air in the United Kingdom is such that they are unlikely to constitute a problem in ordinary civilian life. As I informed the hon. Lady in my reply of 17th December, 1959, it is the total radioactivity from fall-out which is considered to be of main significance for human health, and research into the effect of such radioactivity on man is constantly in progress. Research on the possible biological effects in man of isolated large particles is not practicable.
    Mrs. Butler: But is the Minister aware that living tissue is better able to survive widespread damage from low-dose radiation than concentrated damage at a high rate and that Austrian figures less than a year ago showed Zirconium 95 and Niobium 95 activity in lungs more than 100 times the natural radium activity? Is it not important that Government scientists should study the biological effects of these particles and publish their results at a very early date, because the first the public in this country knew about the existence of these particles, apart from the appendix which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has mentioned, was from a manufacturer of photographic materials last year?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The hon. Lady will appreciate that these large particles of measurable size to which her Question refers are not, in fact, different in kind
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    from other fall-out particles. The general subject, as she so well knows, is under constant research. The problem of the effect of these particles on the human lung is, in fact, being considered by a special panel of the Medical Research Council's committee on protection against ionising radiation.
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Health, as representing the Minister for Science, what increase in radioactivity in Great Britain has been recorded since the recent French atomic test explosion in the Sahara.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: No fall-out attributable to the French test has been detected in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Allaun: Can the Minister confirm that because of the wind direction the fall-out was mainly over East Africa, the Middle East and India? Can he give any information about this?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I have answered the hon. Gentleman's Question on the basis of our monitoring services in the United Kingdom. I will certainly ask my noble Friend to extend our inquiries further if the hon. Gentleman would like me to do so.

    Human Abnormalities
    Mr. Sydney Irvingasked the Minister of Health, as representing the Minister for Science, what reports he has had made to him recently on progress in the understanding of chromosome behaviour in relation to human abnormalities; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I am glad to be able to report that substantial progress has been, and is being, made in the understanding of chromosome behaviour in relation to human abnormalities. A number of reports on new knowledge in this field have been published in the scientific literature.
    Mr. Irving: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the House will be very glad to hear of the success of this tremendously important research, particularly with its bearing on the great human tragedy which we call Mongolism? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman believe that this is the first step on a road which will, we hope, some day lead to the prevention of

    827
    Mongol births? Is he satisfied that this research can go on unhindered? If not, will he make further facilities available?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Yes. This relatively new technique is advancing the understanding of the causation of Mongolism and the next step is, we hope, its prevention. Research is going forward as actively as may be.
    Dr. Summerskill: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider keeping a comprehensive list of congenital abnormalities?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Anything which will facilitate research in this important subject will be considered by the Medical Research Council and by my right hon. and noble Friend who has direct responsibility for it.

    ICELANDIC FISHERIES DISPUTE
    Mr. Owenasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is now in a position to make a statement of Government policy in connection with the Icelandic fishing dispute and the International Conference on the Law of the Seas.
    The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): The policy of Her Majesty's Government at the Conference is to secure a just and lasting settlement of the question of the breadth of the territorial sea and fishery limits. I hope that such a settlement will bring to an end the fisheries dispute with Iceland and that the generous gesture of good will made by the British fishing industry to suspend fishing in the eaters around Iceland during the period of the Conference will contribute to its success.
    Mr. Owen: Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that rigid adherence to tradition will never help the British fishing industry, or resolve this dispute? Is he aware that Iceland is a friendly Power, is an ally in N.A.T.O. and has an economy almost wholly dependent on fishing, and that by this dispute Iceland is being driven economically and politically into the hands of the Eastern bloc? Will he keep that in mind and use some imagination and statesmanship at the conference discussions in March?
    Mr. Lloyd: I accept some but not all of the hon. Member's implications. We have tried very hard to come to some kind of compromise agreement with the Iceland Government. We are still trying to do that, and we tried to have an interim agreement during the conference. We failed to do that and now the fishing industry has made a very generous unilateral gesture, and I repeat my hope that that may do something to create a proper atmosphere for a solution.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman realise even today that he has not put forward the British Government's policy in this matter and that that is the reason why this unfortunate dispute has dragged on from conference to conference, at which Britain has been inadequately represented? Will he consider even now putting forward a concrete policy which the Icelanders can understand and discuss?
    Mr. Lloyd: I wish that the only thing needed to reach an agreement was for the British Government to put forward a policy. Unfortunately, that is not the case. This is a very difficult matter. The proper time for a policy to be put forward is during the Conference itself.

  GERMANY

    Captured Documents
    Mrs. Castleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what applications he has received from the West German Government for permission to study the captured biographical studies of the Nazi period in the joint possession of the allied Powers; and what reply has been given to these applications.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: None, Sir. I would refer the hon. Lady to the answer which my right hon. Friend gave to her on 10th February. The captured biographical records of the Nazi period are in the Berlin Documents Centre which is under the sole control of the United States authorities.
    Mrs. Castle: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that last week in West Berlin there was an exhibition of documents which seemed to show that 43 leading judges and lawyers from West Germany had been serving with

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    great brutality in Nazi courts, and that that exhibition was closed under pressure from the West German Government? Would not that Government be much better employed in trying to get at the truth so as to establish greater confidence in this country in its belief in democracy?
    Mr. Lloyd: That supplementary question does not arise out of the Question which I was asked. I was asked about the obligations of Her Majesty's Government and I pointed out that these documents, in the Berlin Documents Centre, were under the sole control of the United States Government. I think that there is another Question about investigations about former Nazis. Investigations are taking place when there is any evidence. One thing which I find a little odd about this matter is that there are never any allegations about former Nazis in office in East Germany.

    Ex-Nazi Judges and Prosecutors
    Mrs. Castleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what are the most recent representations he has made to the West German Government regarding the appointment to their former, or similar, positions, contrary to the Potsdam Agreement, of judges, prosecutors and other legal persons personally concerned in the infliction of inhumane sentences under the Nazi laws.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I have nothing to add to what my hon. Friend told the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Swingler) on 27th January.
    Mrs. Castle: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that we had better begin by taking steps in areas for which we are responsible and in which we have an interest under the Potsdam Agreement? Is he not aware that the American Jewish Congress has written to me to complain, having been denied access to documents at the Berlin Centre to which I have referred? Is it not clear that, far from making representations to the West German Government to clear up this matter to let us have some confidence in its procedure, the allies are in fact conniving with the West German Government in a conspiracy of suppression of the facts? Is it not time that that was stopped?
    Mr. Lloyd: The hon. Lady is talking complete nonsense. If we have a case where we get any evidence, we are only too willing to pass it on, but we are not responsible either for the Documents Centre or for investigating the matter.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman recall that I have been periodically asking him Questions on this subject for nearly two years and that on every occasion he promises that he is making investigations and will make a statement to the House and that so far he has not made a statement of any kind to the House? Is he asking the House to believe that either he or our allies are seriously attempting to investigate what is a very serious problem? Have they no results to report? Have they not found a single case yet? Is he aware that the exhibition to which my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) referred was of 41 samples only out of an investigated total of more than 1,000? Is not anything to be done about that?
    Mr. Lloyd: The hon. Gentleman may recollect that the Land Ministers of Justice of the Federal Republic made it clear that they were concerned to investigate these kinds of allegations, and, in certain cases, as the hon. Gentleman probably knows, there have been results.

FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY (MILITARY FACILITIES, SPAIN)
The following Questions stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. R. EDWARDS: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what information he has received through the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation of negotiations by West Germany for military training facilities in Spain beyond the control of the Organisation; what representations have been made by Her Majesty's Government; and whether he will make a statement.
Mr. WARBEY: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what discussions have taken place in the Council of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation regarding the provision of extraterritorial training and storage facilities for the armed forces of the German Federal Republic.
Mr. WARBEY: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs by what authority agreements have been entered into for co-operation between the armed forces of the German Federal Republic, which are under the control of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, and countries outside that Organisation; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. FERNYHOUGH: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what consultations took place within the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation concerning the seeking of bases in Spain by the Federal Government of Germany.
Dr. KING: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what discussions have taken place within the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation regarding the use of training grounds in Spain by Western German Forces under the control of the Organisation; and what policy was put forward by Her Majesty's Government in this regard.
Mr. SWINGLER: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on what date the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Council considered the proposal of the West German Government to apply for bases in Spain; and how the British representative voted on the matter.
Mr. ZILLIACUS: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will instruct the British representatives on the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation to oppose the West German Government's proposal to acquire training, firing range, and military storage facilities in Spain.
Mr. SHINWELL: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what information he has received from the United Kingdom representative in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation regarding the dissatisfaction of the West German Government with the present facilities provided for them for military training and storage of equipment.
Mr. DRIBERG: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what information he has now obtained on the extent to which arrangements are already being made for the establishment in Spain of West German missile bases or other military installations; and what further action he has taken to prevent these developments.
Mr. EMRYS HUGHES: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why Her Majesty's Government is opposed to the German Government's plans for military bases of supply depots in Spain, instead of seeking them in other North Atlantic Treaty Organisation countries.
Mr. HEALEY: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what arrangements he has proposed to enable the Arms Control Agency of Western European Union to operate in Spain.
Mr. A. HENDERSON: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent Her Majesty's Government have been consulted by the Federal Government of Germany on their proposal to establish military installations in Spain.
Mr. WADE: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reply he received to the representations he made to the Government of the German Federal Republic on the subject of the seeking of bases in Spain.
Sir T. MOORE: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why it was decided to protest at the action of the Western German Government in seeking to use Spain as a military base unilaterally, in view of the fact that the United States Government did the same thing nearly two years ago, and that both countries are members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation alliance.
Mr. GRIMOND: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the practice of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation regarding the submission by member countries of any proposals for bases or training facilities outside the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation's area to the standing group or to their fellow-members in the alliance.
The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): I will, with permission, answer Questions Nos. 49, 50 to 55 inclusive, 57, 62 to 65 inclusive, 66, 68, and 69 together.
As I told the House on 25th February, I heard from the Federal German authorities last month about the possibility of Germany having military facilities in Spain. The kind of facilities envisaged were supply depôts, hospital facilities and possibly training areas. The Federal

833
Government have made clear in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation in the past their need for such facilities, and they have been negotiating with certain North Atlantic Treaty Organisation countries for them.
I held the view that it would be wiser for Germany to seek the required facilities in countries which are members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, whatever the practical merits. This view was made clear to the German authorities.
The matter has not yet come before the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Council.
Last week, a small German mission was sent to Spain for discussion with the Spanish authorities. Since news of that appeared in the newspapers. I have been in further communication with the German Government. I have been assured, first, that these talks have been purely exploratory. They have not reached the stage of negotiations such as have been held with several other North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Governments. Secondly, that it is not and never has been a question of military bases for Germany in Spain in the sense of combat installations; and, thirdly, as the Federal Chancellor declared on 27th February, the Federal Government will only undertake negotiations and further steps in this matter in agreement with the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
I welcome this statement of the German Chancellor. There is a corresponding obligation, of course, on the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation countries to provide such facilities as are judged militarily necessary, and which need to be outside the territory of the Federal Republic.
The hon. Member for Bilston (Mr. R. Edwards) asked me, on 25th February, whether I was aware that negotiations, and I quote his actual words.
"are well advanced for the building of a German missile establishment in Bilbao…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th February, 1960, Vol. 618, c. 588.]
I have been in communication with both the German and the Spanish Governments on that matter and have received categorical assurances that this is not true.
So far as the question of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for
834
Croydon North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett), on 25th February, is concerned, he was correct in saying that the signatories of the revised Brussels Treaty accept the control of the Agency on the whole of the mainland of Europe not just on their own territory.
Mr. R. Edwards: I thank the Foreign Secretary for that statement, but is he aware that just outside Bilbao there is a subsidiary company of I. G. Farben Industries Limited, which is wholly German-owned and which should have been decartelised under the Peace Treaty, which at this moment is producing guided missiles and stockpiling them for the German Army? Is he aware that they have been producing them for many months for the Spanish Army? I will give the right hon. Gentleman all the details if he requires them.
Is the Foreign Secretary aware that only last Monday this military mission referred to met the Spanish General Staff, and that the only item on the agenda was German bases in Spain? Is he further aware that Alfred Krupps, an ex-war criminal, visited Bilbao in December last year, and that following his visit a £3 million loan was arranged for the huge steel factory in Bilbao, and that all that money was guaranteed by the German Government? In the light of these facts, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman try to pursue more vigorously the inquiries which are supposed to have been made?
Mr. Lloyd: The steel factory has nothing to do with arms production. The allegation which the hon. Gentleman made was that negotiations were well advanced for the building of a German missile establishment in Bilbao. I inquired into that matter and I have had categorical assurances from both Governments that that is not the case. I will, of course, investigate any other allegations which the hon. Gentleman makes. I am a little surprised that he should be so precisely informed as to exactly what happened between the visiting mission and members of the Spanish General Staff.
Mr. Warbey: Can the Foreign Secretary point to anything in the agreements and treaties which West Germany entered into—N.A.T.O. and W.E.U.—to prevent Germany from entering into

835
military co-operation with Spain, including the manufacture and testing of nuclear weapons on Spanish soil? The right hon. and learned Gentleman told us during the foreign affairs debate that we ought to anticipate the natural and probable consequences of the decisions taken in 1954. Are we not now witnessing the natural and probable consequences of the Government's own misguided policy?
Mr. Lloyd: I think that that is a question of argument. I was pointing out that it was the natural consequence of the policy of the Government before us. As for the manufacture of nuclear weapons, the German Government stated categorically that they did not intend to manufacture these weapons on German soil or anywhere else. They have no intention of doing that, and I believe that statement of their policy.
Mr. Healey: I thank the Foreign Secretary for answering all those questions on a matter which is exciting very wide public concern in this country. May I ask one or two questions about his statement? First, is he aware that Dr. Adenauer, during the weekend, stated that the soundings and negotiations in this matter were being carried on only in agreement with N.A.T.O.?
Furthermore, the official spokesman of the West German Foreign Affairs Ministry, at Bonn, stated that the ambassadors of the United Kingdom, the United States of America, and France were consulted on this matter some time ago, and gave the German action their blessing. Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman assure the House that these statements are, to say the least of it, highly inaccurate?
May I, next, ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to what extent a N.A.T.O. decision on this matter—and we gather that one has not get been taken will require the unanimous support of all the N.A.T.O. Council members? In other words, is the Foreign Secretary in a position to veto a favourable decision on this matter in the N.A.T.O. Council?
Now may I repeat the question asked by my hon. Friend? Is it not the case that an agreement of this nature between Germany and Spain would be wholly incompatible with the Paris Agreements,
836
under which this House and other Parliaments in Europe agreed to the rearming of Western Germany? Is it not the case that the Western European Union Arms Control Agency has no right whatever to visit and inspect stockpiles of arms in Spain?
Finally, what N.A.T.O. strategy exists which would require the German Government to stockpile 2 million tons of stores for the German forces in Spain, 1,000 miles away from the possible battlefield?
Mr. Lloyd: The hon. Gentleman has asked a large number of supplementary questions and I will try to deal with them.
As to the statement which he alleged that Dr. Adenauer had made about N.A.T.O. consent, I think that is based on a misreading of the statement. [HON. MEMBERS: "Misreading by whom?"] By the hon. Gentleman. The fact is—and I would have thought that there would have been some appreciation of this fact—that the Chancellor stated that he would not proceed except with the agreement of N.A.T.O. which, so far as the future is concerned, is a matter of considerable importance.
The suggestion that our ambassadors had been consulted and had agreed is not true. It was considered—and this view has been expressed by me in a number of ways to the German Government—that it would be wiser to seek the facilities in countries which are members of N.A.T.O.
As to the decisions of N.A.T.O. being unanimous, there is, as the hon. Gentleman knows, no provision about voting, and, therefore, all decisions have to command the support of all N.A.T.O. countries.
Whether the proposal would be contrary to the W.E.U. Treaty depends on the nature of the arrangements. Hon. Gentlemen all the time seem to assume that there is some plan for the manufacture of weapons or the use and development of bases. There are no specific proposals. I cannot conceive that the storage of materials would be contrary to the W.E.U. Treaty, but it seems to me that it would involve with it adequate inspection, by permission of the Spanish Government, on the part of the Arms Control Agency. Unless

837
Germany could arrange such inspection she should not enter into any such agreement.
With regard to whether it would be reasonable to store 2 million tons of materials in Spain, we must look at the specific proposals when we get them.
Then there is the idea that it is completely unreasonable for the Federal Republic to seek training facilities. I would remind hon. Members that the average width of the German Federal Republic is 160 miles, and that a modern fighter aircraft can cover that distance in 10 or 15 minutes. In fact, there was a recent case of a pilot who was not properly trained coming down in Czechoslovakia. The danger of incidents of that sort occurring, as a result of training taking place so close to the frontier, shows that it is a reasonable requirement that there should be training facilities in other N.A.T.O. countries.
Mr. Healey: No one will deny that the German Federal Republic may require additional military facilities to those which it enjoys at present. May we take it that the Foreign Secretary's answer means that Her Majesty's Government will not permit the N.A.T.O. Council to support moves such as have been suggested between the West German Government and Spain?
Mr. Lloyd: I have stated our view, namely, that it is wiser for these facilities to be sought in N.A.T.O. countries. I am not going to pronounce further upon the matter until I know what proposals, if any, are being put before the N.A.T.O. Council.
Sir T. Moore: Apart from the clumsy and somewhat inept way in which the West German Government have handled this operation, and also apart from the almost pathological and certainly illogical spite that the Opposition have for Spain, does my right hon. and learned Friend think that these proposals, if adopted, would add to the general efficiency of the N.A.T.O. defence organisation?
Mr. Lloyd: I repeat that there are no specific proposals, but I certainly think that any proposals put forward should be looked at on their merits.
Mr. Gaitskell: Can the Foreign Secretary say how it comes about that despite
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the apparent opposition of Her Majesty's Government, carrying with it, one might assume, the intention to veto any such decision in the N.A.T.O. Council, the West German Government nevertheless proceeded to go ahead with these negotiations with Spain? Would it not have been very much better if, before any talks of this kind took place, the whole matter was brought to the N.A.T.O. Council?
Mr. Lloyd: That is one view. I have said again and again that we have been assured that, in fact, there are no negotiations. The attitude of the West German Government is that until they knew that there was any possibility of arrangements being made which were helpful to them, talk of going to the N.A.T.O. Council would have been hypothetical.
Mr. Gaitskell: Perhaps the Foreign Secretary will tell us whether Her Majesty's Government are opposed to these arrangements. If they are opposed to them, and have made that plain to the German Government—[HON. MEMBERS: "What arrangements?"] Any arrangements whereby the German Government have military facilities of any kind in Spain. I ask the Foreign Secretary whether he is prepared, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, to assent to any arrangements of this kind. If he is not, did he make that plain to the German Government? If so, is it the case that, despite his objection, they nevertheless went ahead with these negotiations?
Mr. Lloyd: There are no negotiations. As I understand it, there has been an inquiry. I repeat what I said before—and I think that it is a perfectly proper and reasonable statement—that it would be wiser for the German Federal Republic to get these facilities in countries which are already members of N.A.T.O. That is a quite clear statement of policy.
Dr. King: Does not the Foreign Secretary agree that his main job, and the main job of all the Foreign Secretaries in the world at the moment, is to reduce the tension and end the suspicion existing between East and West? That being so, is not he aware that the action of the West German Government, on the eve of the Summit Conference, is doing

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much to jeopardise all the good work put in by statesmen on both sides of the Iron Curtain?
Mr. Lloyd: I have nothing to add to what I have already said on that aspect of the matter.
Mr. Shinwell: In reply to previous supplementary questions the Foreign Secretary said that the West German Government did not have available facilities for training their air force. Does that mean that the West German Government ought to receive his permission before making an application to train their air force in a country outside N.A.T.O.? Is that what he is saying?
Mr. Lloyd: I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman could have understood me. I was saying that the German Federal Republic had a case for seeking training facilities outside the Federal Republic, but that I thought it would be wiser to seek those facilities in countries which are members of N.A.T.O.
Mr. Shinwell: Does that mean that if the German Federal Government make such an application the right hon. and learned Gentleman, having doubted the wisdom of that procedure, will oppose it?
Mr. Lloyd: It depends exactly on what has happened. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] The right hon. Gentleman must be fair. Let us suppose that it is suggested that alternative facilities should be provided in the Sahara. Would that be wise?
Mr. Grimond: Can the Foreign Secretary tell us whether when he told the West German Government that it would be wiser for them to seek facilities inside N.A.T.O. countries, they agreed? If they agreed, is the matter now to come before N.A.T.O., and is it for N.A.T.O. to decide whether these facilities will be provided in a N.A.T.O. country?
Mr. Lloyd: One good result is that N.A.T.O. will consider this matter, and I hope that it will do so on the basis of what I have suggested.
Mr. Driberg: Although it was before his time as Foreign Secretary—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. A large number of Questions are being answered, and if
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we are to get through the list of those hon. Members who expect to be able to ask supplementary questions a greater degree of silence would help.
Mr. Driberg: Although it was before the right hon. and learned Gentleman's time as Foreign Secretary, does he recall that during the Spanish Civil War, when Questions were asked about German and Italian intervention in Spain, Conservative Ministers stood at the Dispatch Box and retailed to the House—quite innocently, of course—the lies fed to them by Hitler and Mussolini? Is he sure that he is not being fooled again?
Mr. Lloyd: the hon Member does not serve the cause of stability and the defence of Western Europe by drawing that kind of comparison. No comparison can be made between the Federal Republic of Germany under Chancellor Adenauer and the Third Reich under Hitler.
As for our relations with Spain, we wish to improve them. We believe that the Spanish and British people have very much in common, and that the worst way of trying to improve relations is to make allegations about the internal affairs of Spain. We intend to go on trying to improve our relations with Spain. The Spanish Foreign Minister came here in the autumn and we had useful talks. I hope that he will come again this year so that we can follow up those talks. That is a much better way to deal with the question of Spain.
Mr. Zilliacus: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that his replies have strengthened the suspicion that there is far more behind this business than meets the eye and that it is likely that Her Majesty's Government are preparing the ground not to get the German war department out of Spain, but to get Franco Spain into N.A.T.O. or in association with N.A.T.O.? Will he give a categorical assurance that Her Majesty's Government will veto any proposal whatsoever, from N.A.T.O. or otherwise, to have military training facilities for Germany in Franco Spain?
Mr. Lloyd: I do not think that that matter arises out of these Questions.
Mr. A. Henderson: Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether the Federal German Government, before

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sending their delegates to Spain, made any official report to the N.A.T.O. organisation as such, stressing their need for these military bases and training centres?
Mr. Lloyd: I do not think the Federal Government made any specific request, and this is where I think that there was a misunderstanding about the Chancellor's statement. He did say that they had repeatedly brought up this question of facilities outside the territory of the Federal Republic. It is true that the question has been brought up a number of times and I think that one of the consequences of this controversy will be that this request will be examined with greater dispatch than before.
Mr. Wade: Does the Foreign Secretary consider that there is any real integration of military activities regarding supplies, supply depots and facilities for training? Does not Britain also claim the right to independent action in these matters in Europe? What is the attitude of Britain when other member nations, including the German Federal Republic, act independently in spite of our advice?
Mr. Lloyd: All these questions of logistical facilities are more a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence than for me, but one good thing which will arise out of these discussions is that I am certain these logistical plans will be looked at, and with dispatch.
Mr. Mendelson: May I ask the Foreign Secretary whether he is aware that it is being asserted in Foreign Office circles in Bonn that some time ago the West German Government approached the N.A.T.O. Commander, General Norstad, and members of his planning staff on the question of facilities in Spain? Is it right that their reaction was not unfavourable? Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell the House what information he has on that matter?
Mr. Lloyd: I think that it is for the Supreme Commander and the Federal Government to speak about confidential discussions which took place between them. But I can tell the hon. Gentleman straight away that my information is precisely contrary to what he has said.

CYCLONE DAMAGE, MAURITIUS (AID)
Mr. Callaghan(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what further aid he proposes to give to the people of Mauritius in view of the additional destruction caused by the second cyclone, and in view of the urgency for rendering help what steps he is taking to organise assistance with the greatest possible expedition.
The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Iain Macleod): As the House may have heard, the cruiser "Gambia" is already on its way to Mauritius and R.A.F. aircraft are standing by to take relief supplies to the Colony. I have asked the Governor to let me know urgently what supplies and what type of assistance are most required.
This morning I discussed with the Ministerial Delegation from Mauritius the emergency relief measures which would probably be needed. As a result, I have put in hand arrangements for making available supplies of corrugated iron for temporary housing, copper wire for the repair of power lines, and tents, clothing, blankets and field kitchens to help those whose homes have been destroyed.
I promised the Mauritian Delegation that I would arrange for an outside expert assessment of the damage caused by the cyclone to be undertaken with a view to considering the further assistance which the Mauritius Government will require from Her Majesty's Government. The House will have noted that Her Majesty's Government had already undertaken, subject to the approval of Parliament as necessary, to make available to the Mauritius Government assistance of up to £2 million in grants and loans, towards the cost of the rehabilitation measures necessitated by the earlier cyclone which hit the Colony last month.
In conclusion, I know that the House would wish to unite in sending a message of deep sympathy to the people of Mauritius in the disaster they have suffered.
Mr. Callaghan: We should certainly wish to send our sympathy to these unfortunate people after the second cruel blow which has been struck against them

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within a month. We are glad to hear of the emergency measures taken by the Secretary of State.
Having said that, may I ask whether the Colonial Secretary is aware that we are dissatisfied with the speed, the target and the niggardliness of the relief which it was proposed to make available to Mauritius after the first cyclone? Is he aware that I was in touch with his office on 18th February, and put forward three proposals for speeding up the relief, but that so far I have received no reply to the representations which I made then? Although I understand that the nearest warship was 2,500 miles away, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if the proposals I made then had been taken up it would be within striking distance of Mauritius, if not already there?
As we do not often have a chance of discussing the affairs of this Colony, may I further ask him whether it is sensible to offer an amount of assistance which will only enable the mud huts destroyed by the cyclone to be replaced by other mud huts? In view of the second blow which has been struck so quickly, would not it be more long-sighted on the part of the Government for them to make an amount of assistance available which would enable the houses destroyed to be replaced with permanent, durable, anticyclone houses?
Mr. Macleod: The hon. Gentleman is making a number of false assumptions. The actual cost to the Mauritius Government after the first cyclone—"Alex"—was £900,000. The amount of assistance which Her Majesty's Government have said that we were prepared to offer was £2 million. There is no question of replacing mud huts with mud huts, but,
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naturally, after this second "cruel blow"—I take the words of the hon. Gentleman—we must think again on this matter. Of course, we shall have to go beyond the figure that we have announced.
On the question of immediate aid, I think that if the hon. Member studies the statement I have made, he will see that as soon as the first message reached the Colonial Office yesterday morning we started immediately organising first-aid relief for the Colony.
Mr. Callaghan: I am glad to hear that. Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that if his office had conveyed his reply to my representations I should be better informed now than he says that I am? In the meantime, I must believe the information given to me; but perhaps we had better return to this subject when we discuss the Estimates.
Mr. Wall: Regarding the second cyclone, can my right hon. Friend say whether all the aid which has been requested has been supplied and whether the provision of further aid will require the chartering of special aircraft and ships?
Mr. Macleod: It may well require special measures. When I met the Mauritius Ministers this morning we discussed all the immediate assistance which could be made available from a wide area and I think that we were in agreement about what should be done. We have not yet full information from the Colony about the extent of the damage, but whatever the extent may be, the first task is to bring immediate aid, and those measures are in train. The second and longer-term measures are to help with the rehabilitation of the Colony.

DEFENCE
3.58 p.m.
The Minister of Defence (Mr. Harold Watkinson): I beg to move,
That this House approves the Report on Defence, 1960, contained in Command Paper No. 952.
As this is my first speech in presenting a Defence White Paper, perhaps I may be allowed a personal reminiscence. One cannot help recalling war-time experiences when one is responsible for the burden of this office. I remember the long convoy battles in which the Navy, the Army and the Royal Air Force all played such a gallant part. Particularly I remember the men of the Merchant Navy, alongside whom I had the honour to serve at one time during the war.
Perhaps I may quote one sentence from the Roll of Honour which commemorates the memory of the 33,000 men who died:
"They were civilians without the support of military discipline and training, yet they faced mortal danger in the service of others, and they did not waiver. Never, even in the darkest days, was there any lack of willing hands to man the ships however hazardous the voyage, though the seamen knew, often from bitter experience, the horrors which followed enemy attack at sea."
These words seem to me to typify the sacrifice, waste and tragedy of war. It is the job of our generation, those of us who survived, to try to see that it never happens again to us and to our children, knowing full well that, if it does, whatever horrors we may have seen in the last war will undoubtedly be eclipsed. That is why I think that one cannot be half-hearted about defence policy. One has always to keep in mind the main objective—the objective which has run through successive Defence White Papers since the war—of keeping the peace.
I hope that the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) will acquit me of any discourtesy if I do not spend too much time on the Opposition Amendment. I think that it follows precedent, so far as I can judge by reading past debates. I think that it will be best answered, and so will hon. Members behind him who take a different view be best answered, by my giving the House as frank an exposition of defence policy as I can within the
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limits of security. Against the background of the White Paper, "Report on Defence," that will show that the Government's plans for defence are clear, comprehensive and, I believe, give good value for money spent. Above all, let us be thankful that we are being successful in our main objective of keeping the peace.
There is nothing to be complacent about in all this, nor have we shifted from our main objective of keeping the peace by trying to deter a war, but, of course, we must continually review the means of keeping this objective. I should say to the House that the Government are now engaged on a detailed review of our defence effort. Some studies were put in hand by my right hon. Friend, the present Minister of Aviation, some time ago. I have broadened them out and I think that this is the moment to take a general look at our defence effort.
The White Paper, Cmnd. 952, gives a clear and detailed report on the progress of defence so far. I should like to give the House our thinking on defence policy so far as the review has gone. It will, of course, take some time to complete. I should say, first, that it is very much my wish—this is a matter which, I know, has exercised the minds of right hon. and hon. Members very much—that the Chiefs of Staff should play an important part in this study. I wish to say how well they are working together and what valuable advice they give from their very wide expert knowledge. Perhaps, at this time, I might he allowed to say how much I appreciate the services which the Chief of the Defence Staff gives to me, to the Government and to our country in leading the team, as he does, in his own inimitable way.
My own Chief Scientific Adviser and his team of experts are also working hard on the problems. It may be said, "Well, why do it now?" The reasons lie in the immense technological changes taking place in defence, new methods of computation and production which are enabling problems to be solved now which could not have been even formulated with precision a few years ago. Sometimes we may regret this, but we have to live with it. If one wants another example, perhaps one might turn to Mr. Khrushchev's recent claim to have

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successfully fired rockets into the Pacific with an accuracy of 1½ miles over a range of more than 6,500 nautical miles. I am advised that such firing could be well within the technical capabilities of the Russians.
Faced with these changes in all the major countries, it is only the duty of a Minister of Defence to try to see how best to achieve the objective of keeping peace by deterring war with the greatest efficiency at the least cost. In a general comment on what we are trying to do I should say that it probably will lead us to give greater emphasis on mobility and flexibility. In all this I can build on the firm foundations laid by the great work of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation. The country should be very grateful to him for the way in which he did the basic reshaping of our defence policy to fit the future. I have the advantage of building on his great work.
This study will not, of course, be invalidated if, as we hope, we make progress this year in disarmament. Nobody wants disarmament more than the Minister of Defence, because he sees the alternative so clearly and no one wants it more than Her Majesty's Government as a whole, but I must say this to the House. Until practical results in disarmament are achieved, under proper controls, we are just not fulfilling our responsibilities if we do not keep up our guard. In planning for defence we must wait for results in disarmament, not anticipate them. That does not mean that we do not hope and pray that the results will come.
I wish to turn for a moment to the so-called sharp division between conventional and unconventional weapons. I believe that this blurs the defence issue. I hope to deal with the respective sectors of defence, as the White Paper has done, but it is my view—I hope that I carry most of the House with me in this—that the whole of our defence effort is really the deterrent of war and aggressive action. We must be ready at any point and in any circumstances to produce instant reaction to an aggressor. It is not only necessary to be ready; one has to be clearly seen to be ready so that our defence effort does not present a fixed position which could easily be turned. The greatest danger in the world today,
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I think, remains the risk of a miscalculation by an aggressor—the risk that he might think that a certain action on his part would not be met with resolute opposition.
This is something we must always try to guard against. It means to us, with our world-wide responsibilities, that in any part of the world our forces must be ready to try to put out any conflagration quickly before it spreads, or, at the worst, to enforce a pause. If we want to do this—I hope that the whole House agrees on this—and I believe it our duty to try to do it, I must tell the House that it cannot be done on the cheap. If we are to fulfil our responsibilities and get the results which we all want, there is no easy way out. We have to pay the price for keeping the peace, but perhaps I could explain that the price is not so high as same people may think it to be.
It is not for me to go into great detail. I support my noble Friend the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) in saying that the House ought to be very careful about examining Supply. Fortunately, in defence and Service debates these matters can be gone into in great detail, but I hope that today I can bring a sense of proportion to the defence budget and let the House see it against the national effort as a whole.
First, let us take defence expenditure as a percentage of the gross national product. In 1946, quite naturally, it was 17·8 per cent.; in 1951, it had gone down to 8·5 per cent.; in 1953 due to the Korean War, it had gone up again to 10·3 per cent.; in 1956, the beginning of the five-year programme of defence, it was 8·9 per cent. The best calculation I can make for the year ahead—1960–61—is that it will be about 7½ per cent. I cannot be quite exact, because one cannot be quite exact about the gross national product, but I do not think that my figures are wrong when I say that it will be about 7½ per cent.
Let us take another view. Let us look at the load on the economy. The percentage of the working population in the Services or supporting them today is 4·9 per cent. I must admit that these figures surprised me, but I have had them checked again this morning, and I am advised that this is a reduction of no less than 44 per cent. since 1952. The

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ending of National Service plays a part in it, but it is a major reduction of the defence burden on the economy.
Let us look at it in terms of the load on the population. In the 1960–61 Estimates, the Navy will cost 3s. per head per week, the Army 3s. 6d., the Air Force 3s. 11d., the Ministry of Aviation 1s. 6d., and the Ministry of Defence 1½d. I am glad to say that our Estimates at the Ministry at least have done down. I think that it puts it in some proportion if I say that the price of keeping the peace is about the price of a packet of cigarettes per week for each of the three Services. I think that it is right to remove these misconceptions about the total defence spending.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Tell it to the old-age pensioners.
Mr. Watkinson: It is said that the Defence Estimates have increased by £116 million, but £28 million of this is an accounting transfer between civil and defence expenditure. If hon. Members take the actual net increase in the Service Votes, they will find that it is an increase of only £75 million. I am glad to say that £42 million of that represents more hardware, more weapons, more equipment, which is as it should be. Another £12 million represents work—better housing and better facilities; a further £12 million represents Service pay; and £8 million represents the civilian element of the pay.
It seems to me that the extra money is being spent on the right things, such as more weapons, a better service and better pay. It is perfectly right that hon. Members should challenge all these things, but to those who say that there is a great waste in all this I must point out that the Defence White Paper shows that 49 per cent. of the total expenditure this year goes on paying the forces and looking after them. Do we take the view that we waste that money? If not, it is at least half the defence budget accounted for.
I do not want to go further into that, but in my view it is not an unduly high price to pay for a peaceful world until we can find an alternative to this method of achieving it. The alternative must be disarmament. While I accept that any Minister of Defence must try to reduce the cost of defence, I equally say that
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such reductions must not weaken our force for peace in the world.
I have dealt broadly with the money side of the problem, and perhaps I may be permitted to spend a short time on so-called conventional defences, because here we have a world-wide responsibility. It is the least publicised part of our defence effort, although it may well be the most important for the peace of the world, and it certainly takes by far the largest share of the budget.
One of the things which one finds as a new Minister in the job is how widespread are our responsibilities. My right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary has just given an example in that the cruiser "Gambia" is being diverted to Mauritius to bring aid to that stricken island. We have to do these things, and we have to have the ships and aircraft with which to do them.
It is often said that the proceedings of the House ought to be televised As Minister of Defence I wish that we could see the reverse process, as it were—that we could somehow see in front of us this afternoon a map, or some other indication, of the responsibilities which the Armed Forces of the Crown bear. Perhaps I may give the House a list of places outside the mainland of Europe where today, as we debate defence, British forces have a job to do: Newfoundland, Jamaica, Bermuda, British Honduras, British Guiana, Simonstown, Libya, Malta, Cyprus, East Africa, Aden, the Persian Gulf, Gan, Malaya, Singapore, Hong Kong and Australia. These are some of the places where British Service men are doing their job today, and doing it supremely well.
How do we provide them with the weapons and the equipment for this job? I will give only a few examples to the House, based on personal visits which I have been able to make so far. I am at least talking from my personal experience. I may be wrong in this matter, but my impression is that if more hon. Members made these visits they would get a much clearer idea of what the forces are doing. I know that arrangements are made for some visits, and I carry my right hon. Friends with me when I say that, if we can help at any time to enable parties of hon. Members or individual hon. Members to make such visits, our help will be readily available.

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I went to the Armoured Fighting Vehicle Establishment, at Chobham, the other day to see some of the new weapons which will give the Army such great mobility—and it needs great mobility. I saw the Saladin and the Saracen, the new self-propelled gun and, particularly, the new battle tank. This is the best tank in the world, I think, and it has great possibilities; if we can ever arrange a co-operative N.A.T.O. family of weapons, then, as we have sold the 105mm. tank gun to the Americans and the Swedes, for example, so this tank might be the basis for a co-operative venture.
Those hon. Members who have been to Chobham, and those who may care to go, will be in no doubt that the legacy of the Korean War, which held back the re-equipment of the Army for so long, is now behind us and that the re-equipment of the Army has reached a very advanced stage. I would mention, also, the Beaver aircraft, which, I am glad to say, we have been able to buy from our Canadian colleagues, as an example of Commonwealth co-operation.
I turn to the sea, and here I think that my example should be our front-line carrier strength. These carriers are, after all, the modern capital ships. They are essential as part of our contribution to the forces of the West to deter war. On Monday, I had the opportunity of making a short visit to the "Victorious." This soon made it plain to me what very good value we get for the money that we spend on this arm of the Services. I know that it takes an immense sum of money to modernise an aircraft carrier. For example, it costs about £20 million if we are to do the job properly. As the White Paper reveals, the "Eagle" is now being taken in hand for this purpose, and, of course, the "Hermes" is just coming out to join the front line force.
As an answer to those who say that we do not always get enough for our money in defence, I would remind them, for example, that in her recent modernisation the "Victorious" had incorporated an angled flight deck, which is a British development which the Americans are now using; deck landing mirror sights, which is another British development now being used by the Americans; a steam catapult, of which
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the same comment can be made; new boilers and auxiliary machinery; and the type 984 long-range air defence radar. I saw an exercise carried out in very bad weather with this radar display system. When it was demonstrated late last year to the United States Navy, off Norfolk, Virginia, they frankly admitted that it was the best radar defence system in the world—and that is the truth.
If we make a relatively small contribution as a nation, as we do, it must be a good contribution; we must have the best, otherwise our contribution is largely vitiated. Unless it is the best, then even if it costs money we do not draw dividends on it. Certainly, in the air defence systems of a modern carrier we have, as is agreed by our principal naval allies, the best in the world. This vessel also carries the new Scimitar and Sea Vixen jet aircraft, which have a nuclear capacity.
The air defence exercise which was carried out in very bad weather was most impressive. To see modern jet aircraft landing on a carrier, when often they could not be seen coming out of the mist until they were almost on the end of the flight deck, was very impressive.
I had the honour to serve in the Navy for a short time during the war, and as an amateur sailor perhaps I bring a little knowledge to this subject. I was very proud of the bearing of the young men who formed the crew of this great ship. They are very well looked after. The food and conditions which I saw were outstanding. I spoke to one rating who told me, "I have never fed as well anywhere else as I have fed in this ship." We can be very proud of the contribution which these vessels make to keeping the peace. That is why they are there.
As to the rest of the scene, we must get into the nuclear submarine business because we may need these submarines for the hunter-killer rôle and equally for the missile-carrying rôle. It is, therefore, quite right that we should lay down our first nuclear submarine.
We must also have this new concept of the mobile Commando Carrier, H.M.S. "Bulwark", which is shortly off to her station in the Far East. I think that before long we must have a second of this type of carrier, because I cannot think of any better way of having a kind of mobile fire brigade which could be

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poised in any place where there might be trouble brewing. Of course, to sail with her—this is not an immediate prospect, but plans are going forward—we want one of the new types of assault ships. They are called landing ship docks, because they float out their family of landing craft. These are fast ships and, as a team with the Commando Carrier, they are the perfect fire brigade to use anywhere in the world.
Turning, for a moment to the air, I think that perhaps the main example there is Transport Command. I will deal with Bomber Command later in my speech. Perhaps again for the benefit of those who do not think that we get value for our money, we might look at Transport Command's shopping list: the Britannia—first squadron formed, second squadron will be formed this year; Britannic, development going ahead—it is a very heavy work-horse aircraft to carry big loads; the AW660, a medium transport aircraft—20 are on order, deliveries to begin in 1961–62, and I hope that a follow-on order will be given soon.
When we come to the jet element of the transport force, we all realise that the Comet IIs, which have given such fine service, are gradually coming to the end of their useful life. I hope, therefore, that before long—the Air Ministry and the Royal Air Force have it under discusion now—they will be able to discuss with the British aircraft industry a transport jet aircraft. This might be based on the Comet or on the VC10, or possibly both, and if I may hark back for one second to my previous office as Minister of Civil Aviation I think that it is high time that we had Transport Command and the civil aircraft industry working closely together, and here, I think, is an example we might follow.
The helicopters include the whirlwind, the Wessex to come, and now the Rotodyne, a revolutionary aircraft with great civil and military possibilities. It is a very good end product for the money spent.
The facts are that in this part of the examiniation of defence, re-equipment is going as planned and is giving us the greater mobility and flexibility which we need. The new model all-Regular Forces, for which we all owe so much to my right hon. Friend, will have at their command a degree of transport ability
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and striking power such as we have never achieved before in our military history.
I will come for a moment to the human factor. I thing that, rightly, in the Defence White Paper this year we tended to highlight the human factor in the defence picture. I think that is right. To begin with, it takes half the Budget; secondly, it is the men and women in the Forces who bear the burden and the great responsibility of handling weapons of immense destruction and who are trying to keep the peace by so doing.
All that I want to say about the human factor, because it is set out in considerable detail in the White Paper, is this: first of all, as we come to the end of National Service, I think that the House would wish me to say what a debt of gratitude we owe to those many hundreds of thousands of young men who interrupted their normal peace-time lives in the service of their country. They grumbled about it—and so did we—but they did a very good job, and the Services did a very good job in looking after them. If business had had to have that change in its personnel every year, there is hardly a business in this country which could have managed it as well as the Services managed the National Service men. Let us give them credit for that.
As to recruitment, the 1959 figures projected forward give us what we need. I am making no guesses about recruitment. It is the job of my colleagues and myself merely to say how far we are going to plan, and we should see that it goes on that way.
The new pay structure should help a great deal. I think that the House may like to know what it means. I myself found it a little surprising. Under the new pay structure an Army lieutenant of 25 gets £693 a year plus, of course, free food and accommodation. A married captain of 28 gets, including all his allowances. £1,400 a year—not a bad return at 28. Even more important because of their great importance today in a technical service, a married infantry sergeant aged 24, who has signed on for 22 years, gets £17 14s. a week, plus free food and accommodation.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: More than a signalman.
Mr. Watkinson: Possibly. But my responsibility as Minister of Defence is

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to try to see that these young men who carry these immense responsibilities are paid on about a fair level with people in equivalent industries. That is all we have tried to do. We have tried to pay these young men what they would be paid in a skilled job in the engineering industry or in a profession. I believe that is right, and what the whole House wants. I hope that it will have a significant effect on recruitment.
Particularly I think that the new officer career structure gives a boy a chance of knowing that he can have a life-time career in the Services until the age of 55 and perhaps a little more if all goes well. If he does not want that, he can go out at 38 when he has a chance of making another life outside. The members of modern Armed Forces should be well paid because they have this exacting and moral task to do. I hope that this will be an inducement to recruitment; but, because one must never look too far ahead on this, I am very glad to announce to the House that Sir Frederick Hooper—who is known to most hon. Members—has kindly consented to become my adviser on recruiting publicity. He will act in an honorary capacity and will not in any way supersede the existing Services publicity and recruiting organisations. He will be there with his valuable advice and I think that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) will agree that in his chairmanship of the Advisory Committee on Resettlement, which was set up by the Ministry of Labour, Sir Frederick Hooper did an outstanding job. I hope that he will be able to help me with recruiting.
If I may say so, I should like hon. Members on both sides of the House to think about this. It is not part of the defence job, but I think that it is very germane to those who wish to see our Armed Forces play their proper part in this country and in the world. When we come to the end of National Service I think that there will tend to be a greater gulf between the forces and the life of the ordinary men and women in the street and the life of the ordinary family. Somehow we have to try to bridge the gulf.
This is another matter on which I hope Sir Frederick Hooper will give me
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advice. I know the great work done by the cadet force, but I wonder if we can expand that. Is it an impossible thing to do? All of us have it in our hearts to do more, if we can, for the youth of our country, and I wonder whether, when they have finished with National Service, those coming out of the Armed Forces cannot play a greater part in that and in bringing some adventure and more touch with the outside world to youth as part of their contribution to the wellbeing of the country as a whole. I throw that out as an idea, as I have already thrown it out to my colleagues and the Service Chiefs of Staff. I hope that Sir Frederick Hooper will have some ideas on this.
I turn now from the human factor to the question which has been much in all our minds in the last few weeks in the foreign affairs debate and elsewhere, namely the question of N.A.T.O. We are going to keep the seven brigade groups. We are going to retain more aircraft and, as I think the House knows, we have added the Valiant in a tactical rôle to the force which we keep in Germany—an addition which General Norstad was exceedingly glad to have. We do this because we believe that this is the moment above all to keep up the strength of N.A.T.O. I think that General Norstad and the Secretary-General are well pleased with the decision which we have taken. At the December meeting our decision to keep seven brigade groups and these extra aircraft, which I could not announce then but I have announced since, was well received.
I look forward to the meeting of N.A.T.O. Defence Ministers in Paris at the end of this month. It is the first time we have tried the experiment of having a meeting of Defence Ministers without all the great panoply of the annual N.A.T.O. meeting. I hope that this will lead to closer co-operation and a strengthening of our shield forces.
I add only one word of warning here. Whatever views one takes about Germany, there is one thing which is quite certain and recent events have underlined it. Above all, one wants a strong N.A.T.O., with Germany a full member of that partnership. Whatever view one takes about Europe, that is an essential to holding the peace and keeping Europe together.
Mr. George Wigg: The right hon. Gentleman has dealt with N.A.T.O. It is very important that the House should know how many of the 17 infantry battalions in Germany and 3 in Berlin, plus the 13 armoured regiments, are up to establishment.
Mr. Watkinson: My right hon. Friend will deal with that when he opens the debate tomorrow. I warn the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend may even have something to say about the Amendment to which the hon. Gentleman has put his name, which seems to show that his heart has changed place with regard to defence.
I turn now to our contribution to the nuclear deterrent. This takes a relatively small proportion of the total defence budget. If one takes the actual contribution itself, it is still only 10 per cent. Both in the United States of America and our own country the question of the means of delivery of nuclear warheads has been much debated in recent months. Many of the discussions have been somewhat unrealistic, because they have not been related to any kind of accurate time scale. As I said earlier, the greatest danger in the world today would be a miscalculation by a possible aggressor. Therefore, I think that there is an advantage at this stage in trying to set out to the House as clearly as I can the phasing of our plans for the means of delivery of the major nuclear weapons.
This is a discussion about the means of delivery. The nuclear warheads themselves and their production are not in question, and adequate supplies of whatever type is required are assured for as far ahead as one can look forward. These nuclear warheads are of our own manufacture and entirely under our own control.
At present, as the House knows, we make our chief contribution to the nuclear power of the West by using the V-bomber force as the main means of delivery. Perhaps I should make it plain that this is not our sole contribution. In the Navy there are the Scimitar and Sea Vixen with a nuclear capacity, and we shall soon have the NA39. In the Army, there are two Corporal Regiments of the Royal Artillery, and we shall soon have Honest John. In the R.A.F. there is the nuclear capacity of the Canberras and the Thor.
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Apart from those, I wish to deal with Alit one might call the main contribution, using the main and most powerful weapon. Until now, the V-bomber force has been armed with a free-falling bomb. The Mark 2 V-bombers are now coming into service. They are being equipped with the Blue Steel, which is really a flying bomb. This weapon has a stand-off capability and that, combined with the greatly improved performance of the latest V-bombers—this is the important point—makes the force fully able to fulfil its planned tasks until beyond the mid-1960s. In other words, Great Britain's independent contribution to the nuclear power of the West is already settled for some years ahead.
Mr. George Brown: Can the right hon. Gentleman say by what distance Blue Steel extends the capacity?
Mr. Watkinson: Certainly not, and I think the right hon. Gentleman knows why. I shall go further into this matter and give the House all the information which I can properly give, because I am most anxious that the right hon. Gentleman should reply to the debate in the full knowledge of all that I can give him. That is only due to the House, but I will not go beyond what I think is proper.
I recently had the opportunity to visit Bomber Command. It is only when one does that and has the kind of briefing which I suppose only Defence Ministers are entitled to have that one realises to the full the immensely important part that Bomber Command plays today in Anglo-American strategic air power. It plays an absolutely essential and vital part, and the immense and terrifying power which it wields has only to be seen to make one realise the responsibilities which lie on the force and its commanders. The force is alert and ready, and no one should underestimate the powerful contribution which we as a nation are making today to the total nuclear strength of the West by this means.
That contribution goes on until beyond the mid-1960s in complete validity. The V-bomber force has now reached an extremely high degree of mobility. Its range has been much extended by flight refuelling techniques. Its time from warning to being airborne has been

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greatly reduced. In other words, I hope that it remains clear beyond a shadow of doubt to any possible aggressor that any action which he took even of a surprise nature could not protect him from massive and terrible retaliation.
Nor are we at the end of further improvements in mobility and flexibility. For example, the ballistic missile early warning system has been rather misunderstood. Strictly speaking, it is not any kind of air raid warning system. If it can give any help to civil defence, that is very good, but the purpose of the system is to give an additional validity to our power to retaliate, because it is by our power to retaliate that we hope to keep the peace.
There has been much comment about the supposedly short time of warning which this system gives. In fact it would give about fifteen minutes warning, providing that the rockets were sited far enough back to have any protection in their turn. It is only if the most unlikely circumstances are taken that the system would give only four or five minutes warning.
Let me make it plain that even this warning would be sufficient to see a substantial proportion of the V-bomber force in the air. The B.M.E.W. system is therefore an important addition to the effectiveness of our deterrent, and I hope that it will prevent, or help to prevent, a nuclear war ever happening. The thing the House has to face with all these devices is that, if one ever uses them, one fails. Their purpose is to prevent.
Therefore, the problem that faces us us for the future is what we do, not now but for the closing years of this decade and the early 1970s. Until the latter part of the 1960s we are sure of making a powerful independent contribution to the deterrent power of the West. It is on this period in the future that the protagonists of the various delivery systems are concentrated. They are much less inhibited in the United States than we are, and someone sent me a very sweet little postcard. It has not any authorship but I suspect that the United States Navy might have something to do with it. It says:
"Move deterrents out to sea
Where the real estate is free
And where they are far away from me".
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These cards are put in people's pockets in the United States. All of us, perhaps, at some time might echo those words.
I have tried to set out the present position as clearly as I can, and before I sit down I want to set out the future possibilities, as the Government see them, of maintaining our independent contribution in the late 'sixties and early' seventies. As I have shown, we still have time to make our choice. The first thing is, of course, well known—the Blue Streak missile, under construction by de Havilland Propellers and other British companies. This missile owes something of its design to the American Atlas rocket, and I am glad to say that we have been able to be of some help to the Americans from what we have learned from this development.
This is a liquid-fuel missile, and can, therefore, be deployed only on a fixed site. These sites—or silos as the Americans call them—are immense concrete pits dug deep under ground with protection for the missile against attack. A great amount of work has been done with this missile in this country and, thanks to Australian co-operation, at Woomera.
We have learned much already—and this is of importance—not only in the technique of propulsion—that can change; there are various methods of propulsion—but in the design of the very complicated guidance and computation systems that are the necessary environment for any ballistic missile. What goes in the nose is just as important as what goes in the tail. The systems used to count the missile down and to control it are immensely important and are, of course, common to a whole family of missiles. We have learned a great deal in this process, and we are not neglecting the development of solid-fuel motors as well as liquid-fuel motors. That is one possibility.
Another alternative—and I need not say much about it, because the House knows it well—is the Polaris missile, a solid-fuel rocket generally designed for a mobile rôle. It has been most publicised for use in nuclear-powered submarines. A great deal of development work has gone into this missile and I think in due course it will be a very formidable and mobile addition to the power of the West. The Royal Navy has complete links with the

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United States Polaris development programme. We know exactly what they are doing, and how they are doing it, and are completely informed of what exactly is taking place.
A third example shows, I think, how wise a country that cannot afford to have everything would be to try to pick the best, if it can. That, as I hope I have shown, is what this country always has to do. We have to pick the winners out of a stable. We are not like the Americans, who have an enormous stable and pick the winners as they come down the course.
As my right hon. Friend the then Minister of Defence said in the Defence debate in February of last year:
"The Bluestreak is going ahead but we shall, naturally, continue to watch the progress of other developments in America and elsewhere. With the rapid advances of science, which are constantly upsetting earlier assessments, strategic plans and weapon programmes can never he regarded as permanent or immutable."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd February, 1959; Vol. 600, c. 1139.]
I agree with that, and I think that any Minister of Defence would do the same.
The important point is this. When my right hon. Friend spoke in that debate, the possibility of an air-launched ballistic missile was hardly a project, even on paper. It is an example, and a good example, of the rapidity of technological change that even since I have held this office we have seen the emergence of what may be a new break-through in missile deployment. This is a delivery system called Skybolt—a ballistic missile of considerable range and great hitting power, which can be launched from an aircraft. It can be seen at once that a missile of this type is of great interest to us. It is, of course, only in the development stage at the moment, and the promise of such a weapon is not always fulfilled.
Nevertheless, Skybolt would undoubtedly be eminently suitable for our V-bomber force, would thus extend its life very considerably, and thus the period for which the force could continue to make a significant contribution to the deterrent. The Royal Air Force is closely informed about the development programme, and perhaps I should say at this stage—and it answers the point put by the right hon. Gentleman—that the difficulty with the V-bomber
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force in the end years of the 'sixties is not that the force will be worn out but that the Blue Steel flying bomb will then have become increasingly vulnerable to the surface-to-air missiles which we must assume that the Russians will have in very large numbers. Skybolt, is, of course, invulnerable to this form of defence, and paragraph 36 of the White Paper very clearly sets out the position.
Final decisions on the balance we should hold between fixed-site missiles and mobile launchers are not yet taken. I would like a good deal more information about Skybolt, and also about the future development of Polaris, and I hope to accept, before long, an invitation to visit America, kindly extended to me by Mr. Gates, the American Secretary for Defence, to see these projects for myself.
I am also having examined more closely, with my right hon. Friend, the question of the defence aspects of space research, at which I think we need to have a vary careful look. Taking all these factors into account, I think that the House will agree that it is in the national interest that we should give this careful study to the contribution that our nuclear deterrent will make in the late 'sixties and early 'seventies. Certainly, as soon as we have reached final conclusions, I undertake to report them to the House.
One last word about the whole question of missiles and the deterrent. One reads a lot at the moment in America about a "missile gap". One reads that, at times, the Americans are very much depressed about this. What the West has to ensure is that there is no deterrent gap. Here, of course, geography is more on our side, because with our immense dispersal, our command of the oceans of the world, we have the possibility of deploying missiles, of making them mobile, which, I hope, means that the West can always be sure that there will be no deterrent gap—
Mr. Sydney Silverman rose—
Mr. Watkinson: No, I am just finishing my speech, and we have two days' debate ahead.
If that is so, the only other thing we have to try to retain is the position—and I am trying to face these things as

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frankly as I can—in which a saturation attack would not so diminish the power of retaliation held by the West that an aggressor might feel that at least part of his nation could survive a major nuclear exchange. That is why I believe that the West must rely more and more on dispersal, and more and more on the mobile missile, and this largely indestructible deterrent.
Mobility, of course, can be expressed in many ways; in wide dispersal of fixed sites, in the use of railway trains or barges, in surface vessels, in the air-launching platform, and in the under-sea launching platform—all can play their part. The important point I want to make is that we must hold this balance, and that balance means that it is quite certain that massive retaliation to any nuclear strike is completely unavoidable—by both sides, if hon. Members like. That is the balance on which peace rests.
To sum up, I would say this. In the means of delivery of nuclear weapons we are now, and will be for the next few years, as mobile and as well equipped as we or our allies would wish us to be, and capable, as I have said, of a terrifying retaliation. For the longer-term future we are well placed to pick the best means or combination of means to maintain our contribution as long as it is necessary.
I hope that I have given a few examples to the House which show that our defences are well-equipped, that the morale of those who serve is high, and that their equipment compares favourably with that available to any other nation. As a result of the wide-ranging study I have announced today, I hope that we shall be able to provide greater mobility and greater flexibility throughout the whole of our defence programme.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper will, I am sure, make one of the speeches we have come to expect from him. I know that what I say will not embarrass him. His heart is in the right place in defence matters. I do not apply that to the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), whose heart seems to have shifted from left to right, as far as I can see. [Interruption.] I am sorry—I was looking at it the other way round. I should have said from
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right to left. As I was saying, I am sure that the right hon. Member for Belper will make one of his traditional, hardhitting—some might say violent—speeches in reply to mine. If I may say so, no one is better at it than he. No doubt, during the course of the debate we shall hear a good deal about too many generals, too much waste, gross inefficiency, and all the rest. I am not saying that it is wrong that those things should be said in the House of Commons. Indeed, I believe it is right that a democracy should not become too starry-eyed about its Armed Forces.
Mr. Harold Davies: Will the right hon. Gentleman stop patronising us?
Mr. Watkinson: I do not think I should ever try to patronise the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies). He is quite capable of looking after himself.
There is, however, the other side to it. It is right also that we should give the Armed Forces their due. I say this with no intention other than wishing to try to state the issue clearly as I see it. We may argue about defence in the House, but I believe that in our hearts most of us accept that we should give the Armed Forces their due, in a world where their task is to try to avoid the destruction of our civilisation. The men and women of the Armed Forces do a superbly good job, as I am beginning to see. They are well equipped and are being even better equipped. They have a sense of purpose and a sense of service to the community of which we can be proud.
We can all be proud of the Armed Forces of the Crown. I hope that, despite the arguments, they have our full support in their great task of trying to keep the peace. To weaken now in our resolution would be to betray our trust to them and to those who died for peace and freedom in two world wars. Not only that, it would be to reject our own responsibilities as a force for peace in the world.
4.52 p.m.
Mr. George Brown: I beg to move, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
"recognising the need for an adequate policy for collective defence and security, has no confidence in the defence policy of Her Majesty's

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Government which, since 1951, has cost more than twelve thousand, five hundred million pounds and which, as set out in Command Paper No. 952, proposes to continue the vacillations and confusions of the Government's nuclear strategy, thereby involving the nation in further substantially increased expenditure whilst providing no prospect of effective defence".
Just before the Minister sat down, he seemed to go unaccountably on the defensive about what he might hear from this side of the House. He obviously had in mind that he had not, in the course of his 55 minutes speech, wholly dealt with the criticism which he rightly expects about what is going on in the defence of this country. I merely say, after listening to his very agreeable speech, that he was quite right if that was the thought in his mind. Indeed, he did not deal with the major issues which are in people's minds, which I hope to raise in the course of what I have to say.
His summing up about the possibilities of the deterrent and maintaining the means of delivery amounted, really, to, "We have still got time. We do not know yet what to do. We hope we shall find out what to do in time". Part of of the case I shall make is that Ministers have been saying this for so long that they are bringing us dangerously near the day when there will be no time to say it again and no time to do anything effective.
Those who, like me, have had words to say in favour of an independent contribution to the deterrent by this country will very soon have to face what we ought to do about a series of Ministers who come here every year—for the most part, a new Minister every year—and tell us in a very pleasant way that they have not yet made up their minds. We know in our hearts that they are approaching the point of no return in this matter. When we have passed the point of no return, which, in my view, is that point beyond which one has not time enough to make a contribution, some people in the House, on both sides, will have to ask themselves what they think ought to be done.
I ask the House to forgive me for a moment; I seem to have lost part of the notes for what I want to say. I have it now; I put the last page where it belongs, as the right hon. Gentleman put the heart where it belonged.
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The Minister began with a reminiscence. I will give him one. It is now four years since I was proposed for candidate membership of the "Defence Ministers Club". I had never reached higher rank than that of candidate member. I failed to be elected to full membership. But the ironic part of it is that I am now welcoming in his rôle the fourth Minister of Defence in my time as candidate member. I have seen three Ministers of Defence come and go, and there were five before the four I have welcomed since the Conservatives came into office. Thus, we have had one Minister of Defence for rather less than each twelve months reporting upon the failures of the policy confronting him, announcing his intention, as the present Minister did today and as they have all done, of setting up of a review, and claiming credit for reviewing what has been done. Nothing, however, ever seems to come to fruition.
It is a very good thing, of course—the Minister was quite right—to look at what one has come from and where one is going, but, if one keeps on always reviewing, no decisions are ever taken and we are back again with the old besetting evil of the best being the enemy of the good. The issues which need to be answered are never really answered at all. Nothing is ever stopped in time. This came out very clearly in connection with Blue Streak, to which I shall return in a moment or two. No project is ever stopped in time because no Minister is in office long enough to see that it is a project which ought to be stopped. It goes on until the next man gets himself ready to do something, but nothing ever seems to reach a conclusion, in what is, admittedly, a difficult field.
The consequence is that the warring components of the higher Service echelons—I believe they are still warring—have new opportunities all the time to fight for their own part of the field. One of the things I hoped to see come out of the reorganisation of defence when the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Aviation first went to the Ministry was the ending of the old-fashioned split between the Services on the basis that everybody was more or less kept happy.
Looking at the way the increased money this year has been spent, it seems

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that we are back with the old system; they each have roughly their proportion, and each keeps something in being of the old inter-Service rivalry, partly because the previous Minister permitted further reorganisation to occur a couple of years ago which down-graded the Ministry of Defence and its powers, and partly, also, because no Minister ever stays in office long enough to come to grips with things.
Briefly, if I may, without actually proving it at the moment—I hope it will, nevertheless, be for his good—I say to the right hon. Gentleman that he must turn his attention to two matters very quickly. The first is the defence organisation. If he accepts and just takes over the reorganisation which went on a couple of years ago, when the Defence Board, I think it was, was instituted, the Defence Committee of the Cabinet changed its composition and the Minister of Defence ceased to be its deputy-chairman, and when his relationship with other Chiefs of Staff seemed to change, he will be acquiescing in a situation in which he will never be able, I think, to overcome this problem of the warring Services or to enforce or bring about any effective degree of integration either at any level in the Services themselves or in respect of some of the operations and arms which seem genuinely to have been inter-Service from the very beginning.
The second thing I ask him to look at is the supply organisation. It puzzles me that the House occasionally gets excited about the question whether we look at the expenditure of money closely enough, yet we recently had a complete change in the supply organisation for the Services. It followed upon a massive examination by the Select Committee of the old Ministry of Supply arrangements which produced a damning indictment of the waste and defects within it, but the new supply organisation has never been explained to us. There has never been a White Paper on it. The Prime Minister has refused that repeatedly. We have never been told how it operates. I do not know whether the Minister of Aviation, who has taken over special responsibilities, is now subject to the requirements stated by his right hon. Friend, or whether it is the other way round.
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I notice that as the Motion on the Order Paper is framed the Minister of Defence barely gets his name in at all—I suppose that if the rules permitted one less name he would not have been on the list at all—whereas the Minister of Aviation's name appears higher on the list. I think that this is very important indeed. I wonder whether, in fact, it means that aviation supply responsibilities are being carried out for and at the direction of the Minister of Defence.
We must remember that the Ministry of Aviation has responsibility for aircraft, for missiles, for atomic weapons and for the whole wide, significant field. Unless we are clear that that fits into the defence scheme and that the Minister of Defence is supreme here, then we are heading for a worse situation than the one we have already had. The House is entitled to be told what the supply organisation is, and I hope that when the Minister of Defence has his second whack tomorrow he will say something about that.
It is our case that the £12,000 million which has been spent since 1951 has, in fact, brought us weakness, indecision and uncertainty. The Minister himself disclosed the weakness and I will refer to examples of it in a moment. We are being treated as though we are less intelligent, less bright and less equipped with memory than the average sixth former.
Every year the Ministers do the same thing. They tell us about the angled deck, about radar and about the steam catapult and claim that they have made new progress for that year. Ever since I have been standing at this Box that sort of thing has been going on, and it must have gone on before that. Whether Ministers think that we do not remember, I do not know.
The other thing which Ministers do is to mention all the things they hope to achieve. They say, "It is coming; it is being developed; it is being progressed with; things are going satisfactorily." They tell us about all these things as though they were here. The fact is that practically none of them is here. Indeed, among this year's crop the only thing that I could really find that actually had arrived was the Tiger class cruiser which, I think, was laid down twenty years ago. It has no modern

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armament, although it has quick-firing guns. There is nothing else.
It is really time that Ministers paid themselves the tribute, if they have nothing new to report, of saying so. They should not keep on thinking that we will not recognise either the old candidates or the claims for things that are not yet here. We shall always recognise them, and every year that passes makes them more familiar to us. Hon. Members opposite are doing their constituents a great disservice by not themselves taking up these matters with their right hon. Friends.
The expenditure of £1,600 million is no meagre sum of money. The expenditure of £12,500 million in nine and a half years is no meagre sum of money. If at the end of nine years, after nine Ministers have been in office and after the expenditure of that sum of money, the cupboard is as bare as before of these significant weapons, it should not be left just to Opposition Members to ask why. Every hon. Member should be very concerned about it.
The right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) said this about Conservative Governments before the war, and it was the same issue. Much money had been spent but—[Interruption.] Oh, yes, the money was spent. Look up the figures. At the end of the day we had one 3·7 gun and 30 tanks. The right hon. Gentleman said that these were the years that the locusts had eaten. The locusts have not only been eating since then; they have gorged themselves of both money and Ministers.
That is our case. I do not think it is necessary to say that I do not accept that it is unprofitable or unnecessary to pay for defence. The right hon. Gentleman does not have to make out that part of his case to me or to many of my hon. Friends, although there are some of them who will not agree with that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] We are not all as keen as the right hon. Gentleman once was about democracy not mattering. Democracy means that people have the right to have different views. It is not a matter to be giggled at.
Some of my hon. Friends take a different view. But we do not conclude that it is unnecessary or unprofitable to pay for defence. As long as the war
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does not break out, who is to say that we have deterred it from breaking out or that it would not have happened anyway? If there is no war, it might be said that maybe there would not have been a war even if we had not spent the money. On the other hand, as the whole purpose is deterrence, we might as well take credit for the result.
Of course, any insurance premium seems too much to pay, and if one never has a claim one of course thinks that it is too much. The only time recently when I put in a claim I found that the premium did not buy as much cover as I thought. Having accepted that part of what the right hon. Gentleman said, it can also be true that the premium is too high and the cover bought is too low. Our case here is that the premium is getting dangerously high unless the cover is really adequate, and I doubt whether it is.
I wish to say one other thing. The purpose of defence is, of course, the purpose of our foreign policy and our defence policy, and provision can only reinforce the policy which we are seeking in the international field. It cannot replace it. That is abundantly clear from the debate which we had three weeks ago when the foreign policy of the present Government was shown to lack clarity and drive. Many of the Government's doubt are reflected, I think, by the doubts and in confusions in the White Paper.
Paragraph 17 of the White Paper deals with bases in Cyprus and Kenya. This shows only too clearly how unclear the foreign policy of the Government is about bases. When I heard the right hon. Gentleman speaking about the Commando Carrier and the desire for another one, I hoped that he would draw someone's attention to the very much greater importance of that than of pouring vast sums of money into Kenya before we are clear what the future of that territory is going to be or what the future political arrangement there will be. The same can be said about a surprisingly vast Middle Eastern Command headed by General Dudley Ward with a lieutenant-general under him in Cyprus at a time when the political situation there is so uncertain.
Paragraph 17 and paragraphs 3 onwards of the White Paper all show how uncertain the foreign policy is. Any uncertainty is bound to produce further

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uncertainty in defence policy. The Government remembered to say that comprehensive disarmament is their aim, but neither in what was said in the foreign policy debate nor in the White Paper is there the slightest indication that they think this is urgently so or that they have plans for achieving steps on the way to it, or even understand the problems involved. The Daily Mail used the word "dither" in relation to this White Paper. Much of this dither is attributable to this. I said in the foreign affairs debate that nobody in the Government will face the fact that while there are certainly risks to be run in connection with any advance in foreign policy towards multilateral disarmament, controlled disarmament, towards a test agreement in Europe in some limited area, there are also great risks in staying as we are. I should have thought that if this White Paper does one thing more than another, it surely brings out the risks involved in the present situation, the difficulty of taking the right decisions in the future and being sure that we are buying ourselves adequate security in the future.
If only somebody in the Government would decide that we could go further than we have gone towards agreement in these spheres, not only do I think that progress might be made there, but I think the Minister of Defence would find his field for the first time limited for him in a sensible sort of way. Meanwhile, the purpose remains. We must try, by collective action with our allies, to achieve collective security through collective defence leading to effective deterrents to war. I repeat the word "collective" because I believe that this word that appears in our Amendment is very often absent from the thoughts and mind of the Government.
Our record on collective defence is not good, and the responsibility—I do not think that is too strong a word—of the Minister of Aviation for the events in our major alliance, in N.A.T.O., which has led to the unhappy situation about Germany and the Spanish negotiations, is very high. He was never clear about "we" meaning Britain and "we" meaning the West and our allies. He has never got clear just how important collective security is in this matter. The Minister said that the forces that we are raising must have the arms, the equip-
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ment, the means of mobility and the bases to enable them to do their job. That is all very true, but we have to examine how far they have got.
I believe the Government are vulnerable on every count. We have weakened, not strengthened, our main alliance, N.A.T.O., and the forces that we commit there and the forces that we have for other purposes are still most inadequately organised and equipped. The prime reason is the wild and utter confusion which has prevailed throughout on the central issue of the ultimate deterrent.
The new Minister tried today to establish his view of where we stand, and for the first time I heard the Minister say that all our forces comprised one whole deterrent. This is a very welcome change from what the Minister of Aviation used to say when he talked about "it"—the deterrent. No matter how we tried, we were never able to get him to see that each is part of a series of deterrents the purpose of which is to deter war as a whole.
I think this confusion began for modern purposes when the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head), who is not with us at the moment, became the Minister of Defence. The five or six Ministers before him, finishing with Lord Monckton, virtually ignored the whole situation, and perhaps had some excuse for doing so, because it could be said that those were early days for dais nuclear business. The right hon. Gentleman, when he became Minister, got down to it and tried to make decisions, and, in my view, took the decisions about large-scale forces and conventional arms wrongly. Here I am in conflict with my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg); but there it is. We have talked about it, and I think he was wrong. But whether he was right or wrong, he was not there very long before we understood from the inspired stories of that time that because the Prime Minister thought there were vast savings to be made from defence if we switched, the right hon. Gentleman went out and the present Minister of Aviation came in.
The Minister of Aviation equally oversimplified and equally took the wrong decision. He took the opposite decision and he announced it in that famous 1958

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White Paper with that infamous paragraph 12 where he got on to massive retaliation after everybody else in the world had left it.
Mr. S. Silverman: If I may interrupt my right hon. Friend, there were parts of the White Paper in which he talked about massive retaliation, as my right hon. Friend says, but paragraph 12, as I remember, relied on nuclear warfare not in retaliation but in the first stage.
Mr. Brown: The point is that paragraph 12 contained the reference to massive retaliation. The whole basis of massive retaliation was in that paragraph. But it really does not affect the point I am making. We are in agreement on the major point, which is that the Minister introduced this as the new policy, swept aside the old one, made this great statement about massive deterrents, and gave the whole concept of deterrents and of the kind of forces we ought to have a swing the wrong way.
Ever since the Service Chiefs have been desperately trying—and no Service Minister can deny it—to maintain or recover some of the ground that they thought the right hon. Member for Carshalton had established and which they thought the Minister of Aviation had taken away from them. This has led to the warring. This has led to a dreadful dichotomy, not only in the Ministry of Defence, but in the Service Departments as well. This is what much of the waste of time has been about. This was the consequence of the attitude that the Minister then took. I believe that much of the blame for this must be laid at the door of the Minister and of the Prime Minister himself.
It is fascinating to hear the present Minister of Defence talking about "defence on the cheap" as something that we must not expect to get, and lecturing us about it. I remember the pipe-dream of the Prime Minister himself when he went to the Foreign Press Association and took the trouble to issue a hand-out in advance telling everybody how wonderful it would be of he could make savings of £700 million a year, how, if he could get our defence costs down to £800 million a year, we could do so much with all the rest. What was he talking about if not about defence on the cheap? I remember all the in-
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spired stories—and they were inspired—that came out just before that White Paper of 1957 in the Observer, The Times, the Sunday Times and all the so-called respectable newspapers, in which were mentioned every forecast of savings to be made by the Minister, ranging from £300 million to £400 million and £500 million a year.
The Minister's colleagues were the people who thought we could get defence on the cheap, and they tried to get it on the cheap. The reason why the Minister has got a cupboard so bare today is that they put vaster and ever vaster sums of money into missiles for delivering the one thing that he thought was a deterrent—this massive retaliatory force—chased their own decisions as a gambler chases his losses, and then starved in the early period the money which should have gone to other purposes. Therefore, this criticism about defence on the cheap should be addressed not to us but to the Minister's colleagues.
This was the real reason—it might be the wrong reason for doing the right thing; again I am at loggerheads with my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley—for ending conscription. They did not end conscription for the reasons that we wanted—namely, that this was the way to get a small, highly-mobile, well-equipped force. They ended it because they thought that here was a way of great saving. All this led to the inevitable consequences that we see today of inadequate mobility and inadequate equipment. The effective rôle of both nuclear and thermonuclear weapons as an additional part of a deterrent whole was never seized upon by the Minister of Aviation, and I doubt whether he even recognises it at this moment. I think that the Services have been bogged down in unnecessary controversy about conventional and nuclear weapons. This has led to the present utter confusion. I invite the House to look at the evidence for this shown by the costs set out in the various White Papers.
I hope that there is another way in which the Minister of Defence will improve on the practice of his predecessor. One of the really unhappy features has been the way in which the figures have been presented year after year. The section of the White Papers dealing with the costs, the budget, has

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been the most appallingly difficult to follow. The essential sums have never been done and a great many misleading implications have appeared. In 1957, the then Minister claimed very great credit—I will not waste time by reading paragraph 71, because hon. Members can look it up for themselves—for the fact that he had saved about £100 million on the bill. He used other figures designed to show that on certain calculations it could be claimed that the figure saved was more like £300 million. The implication was that if he had done all that he had wanted to do and did not cut out the things that he did cut out, the bill would have gone up to £1,700 million but he was charging only £1,400 million.
The Minister's saving was about £100 million. That was his first contribution only three White Papers ago. In the second year, in his famous plan, he claimed that he had made another saving. He claimed that he had made a saving of £44 million, but said that if one were to do the sums a different way round the real saving was a great deal more. However, he was content to be credited with a saving of £44 million.
In 1959, things began to catch up on them. Last year, the increase was £20 million. This year, it is about £90 million. In other words, the Government are running a five-year plan in which they claim credit for making reductions in the first two years and show how they will go on saving. Then, they reverse the procedure and start spending the money on things which they had been starving. There is no increase in the rate of equipment. There is nothing dramatically new. The Minister now says the opposite of his predecessor. He says, "We are spending money on hardware. Is not that a good thing?" His predecessor said, "We are not spending money on hardware. Is not that a good thing?"
The whole confusion in which the defence policy has been plunged because of the decisions, not only of the Minister of Aviation but of his predecessor and of the Prime Minister, is shown by what has happened in finances over the last four years. I am glad the Minister has made it plain that this is not because pay is going up. The bulk of the in-
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crease is to pay for the hardware that ought to be there, which so far has not been there and this year is only just beginning to appear.
I wonder whether it is unworthy of me to think this—it could be, but the right hon. Gentleman is a great authority on what is unworthy—but the two years in which vast savings were made were both pre-election years. The payment for the bill mainly comes in the first year after an election. I wonder how far that contributed to the unhappy situation that exists—I wonder how far right hon. and hon. Members opposite who profited by it also ask themselves the question.
That is not the only or even most serious part of the case. I referred to the business of claiming credit for things that did not happen and things that may happen, but it is time that we stopped talking about greater mobility when we are still so far away from moving heavy equipment for the troops. The Britannic and Argosy were mentioned today. We have neither of those aircraft. I think the Minister said that the Argosy would be delivered in 1961–62, but we were not given a delivery date for the Britannic. It is still two years away even now, and we shall not have mobility until we get it.
The least the Minister can do is to be as honest as the Minister of Supply was last year and admit that we have not got it today and say that we hope to get it in a couple of years' time. That is all he can say. Only in two years' time will we know whether the Britannic and the Argosy will be available. The situation with regard to these two heavy-lift aeroplanes is, in my view, a very serious criticism of what the Government have been doing.
There are two other aeroplanes which I want to mention.
Mr. Wigg: We shall not get the Britannic in two years' time. It has not flown yet.
Mr. Brown: Yes. The earliest date by which we can expect to have the Argosy is two years' time. The Britannic will be even later. If we get the Argosy in two years' time, then we shall have a tactical lift, not a strategic lift, aeroplane.

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Much reference has been made to two other aeroplanes. First, the NA39. We were told that a production order for this aircraft was being placed last year. I gather from paragraph 31 of the White Paper that a production order is expected to be placed this year for what promises to be an outstanding strike aircraft. It is still no more than that. It does not exist. As a strike aircraft, it is not there. As an addition to our contribution, it is not there. It goes on year after year being something that is coming in.
Then there is the TSR2, this remarkable plane which the Royal Air Force insisted on ordering because it would not have the one born in the Admiralty, the NA39. Is the TSR2, which is referred to in this year's White Paper, coming through? Can the Minister give us an idea of the time scale for the TSR2? Does he even think that we shall ever get it? If not, what does he now think is the aeroplane to provide the tactical support rôle for the Army? I could mention other aircraft, but these I wanted to mention because they are outstanding examples.
We are given promise after promise and the Ministers continue to think up something new, something better, as the air marshals insisted on thinking up something better than the NA39, but we are no nearer to having the aircraft that we want. We have not the equipment that we want.
Sir Arthur Vere Harvey: I understand that these heavy transport aircraft were ordered two years ago, but what is the alternative? Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that we should buy second-hand Globemasters to get over the situation?
Mr. Brown: The point is that the problem did not begin two years ago. The trouble is that the orders were placed too late. If I am right in thinking that there is a grave gap here, it is the responsibility of the Ministers. I only say that if we had been the Ministers and had the gap been shown to be as bad as we think it is shown in these White Papers, some action would have to be taken. I would not be left with small forces at the end of 1960 and admit that I would have to keep them waiting around getting seasick outside a harbour while the slow boats caught up with the heavy equipment, as happened once before. If emer-
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gency action were needed, in my view it should have been taken. The Minister of Aviation knows that I have made my position very clear on this matter. Emergency action was not taken. Perhaps the Ministers will say that they did not want to admit that because they did not take action they failed in their real duty which was to avoid the emergency. That is the real criticism which I have to make.
I want to turn now, as the Minister did at the end of his speech, to the most discussed area, perhaps the most important, certainly the area of the Government's greatest confusion; that is, the strategic concept of defence in the nuclear age. Clearly, I and the Labour Party do not take the unilateralist position on nuclear weapons. They exist. They must be a component part of our strategy and our armoury of deterrents unless and until an equivalent or greater advantage can be gained either by multilateral and controlled disarmament or by some lesser but vital advance such as we envisaged when we put forward the proposal which came to be known as the "non-nuclear club".
I repeat what I said earlier, that there we have two "we"s, and we must always distinguish between "we" meaning Britain and "we" meaning the West, because the kind of price one would pay for advance in particular circumstances would be different according to whether one were talking about the West or Britain. Again, not all my hon. Friends take this position. I understand that, but for myself let me make it quite clear that I have never seen how one can seek to arm for defence and ignore weapons which exist. Nor what their value would be if we did.
Much of the delivery apparatus is the same whatever the nature of the explosive force we use it to deliver. We would still need the V-bombers either way. We would still need strike aircraft either way. Indeed, if we were delivering a lower explosive force we might need them very much more. I think the savings which people talk about getting from the unilateral abandonment of nuclear weapons would be a very great deal less than is claimed, because so much of the real money, I would imagine, goes now for the delivery apparatus, and not the weapons themselves. So the savings would, I think, be a lot less than is often alleged.

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The provocative element, however, would be just as great, if by "provocative" we mean the ability to attack the other fellow, the ability strategically to bomb him, and thereby provoke him into feeling he ought to strike first. If that is alleged to be the provocative element in nuclear weapons it is true of any weapons. The provocative element would be just as great.
But the deterrent value would be much less. This is why I cannot take this position. It seems to me that we should have all the disadvantages, we should and save very little money and at the end of the day have the disadvantages but not have the deterrent advantage.
Recently, something I said shook one of my hon. Friends into saying, "You will make me cry". It was a cynical remark, when one remembers how emotional the anti-nuclear disarmers are allowed to get. It is sometimes a little hard, for we are never allowed to have any feelings. Let me say seriously and in the most deliberate and friendly spirit—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: A Christian spirit?
Mr. Brown: —even a Christian spirit, that I have never seen how we can ask young men to go into battle and to face weapons and concentrations of armour and deny them the weapons which might have deterred those concentrations and which would certainly enable them to meet them on a fair footing. It has always seemed to me that that is something I could never do. If other people feel they could do it, they must rationalise it in their own way. I could not.
For those two sets of reasons I am unable to take the unilateral position, but, having said that, it follows that we must have a coherent strategic concept which fits these weapons into their place and elevates the theory of deterrence at all levels, since the problem of the escalator—once we get on it—arises the moment that kind of conflict starts if the conflict is big enough in a serious enough area. Indeed, no matter what area one is fighting in, no matter what weapons one is fighting with at the beginning, the escalator problem arises and it becomes of tremendous importance right from the beginning.
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The present Minister seems to me to be ahead of his colleagues on this, but my feeling is that the Government have never got this business of deterrence, the whole spectrum of deterrence, at all clear. They have vacillated and wobbled on this all the time. The theory of massive deterrence was the one which occupied them. It rather looks, of course, as though Mr. Khrushchev, in his recent speech, is moving that way, too, at the moment, and some people may ask how can we make that point against our Ministers here when Mr. Khrushchev seems to be moving that way. But it is precisely the change in the balance of rocketry which makes that kind of policy possible for Mr. Khrushchev which makes it impossible for us. It was the change from monopoly to superiority only, and then to parity, and then to Russian supremacy which, in fact, has thrown out of gear so much of what the Minister of Aviation tried to do and did not see until it was too late.
For all that the Minister said today, his White Paper is still dreadfully unclear; or rather, it is clear but clear the wrong way. Paragraph 3 says this:
"Because of the need to meet local emergencies which could develop into a major conflict, conventionally armed forces are a necessary complement to nuclear armaments."
It is exactly the wrong way round. The truth is exactly the other way round. If we have to have them at all, conventional forces do not complement nuclear weapons: nuclear weapons complement the conventional element in our deterrents. Till the Minister can get this right and start getting it written aright, we shall not either get our own weapons policy right or get our attitude in the alliance right.
I want to turn to our position in the alliance. The Minister talked a bit about N.A.T.O., though not nearly as much as I hoped he would. I think that because the Government have been so confused on the whole business—I speak in as restrained a manner as with my temperament I can—they have acted in ways which have had a disastrous effect—I use that word, and I mean it—a disastrous effect on our alliance as well as on our own policy.
Nowadays we are all conscious—are we not?—of the weakness of N.A.T.O.

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That it lacks political direction is abundantly clear. I think I have never heard a more pitiful exhibition than that by the Foreign Secretary today, who, after all, is one of the Ministers who politically directs N.A.T.O., and who stood at that Box and said, "Well, I hope that after all the dust has settled about the German-Spanish business N.A.T.O. will now come to grips with the problem." Who the devil is N.A.T.O.? It is he. He and his colleagues. If he has not come to grips with it, who is to blame?
Those Ministers have never got down to the job at all. It lacks political direction because our Government have been playing around with the idea of unilateral action all the time and thought that this massive deterrent theory we have today would do it. We all know that the shield forces of N.A.T.O. are inadequate. We all know who began that, who started the weakening of those forces. The Minister told us today about the plans General Norstad has, that he has to keep seven brigade groups for the time being.
That is not the commitment which Sir Anthony Eden made. Sir Anthony Eden set out the commitment that the United Kingdom would continue to maintain on the mainland of Europe, including Germany, the effective strength of the United Kingdom Forces under S.A.C.E.U.R., four divisions and the Tactical Air Force, or whatever S.A.C.E.U.R. regarded as the equivalent fighting capacity.
Does S.A.C.E.U.R. require less than three divisions today as the equivalent fighting capacity of the four divisions which we solemnly pledged ourselves to keep there? It is true that the Minister has said that he will maintain the 10,000 extra men that his colleague said he would take away, but that is all he has done. Also, he has put in for the very first time "for the time being". It is a very great weakening of the commitment. It is no use our saying that we do not share a very great part of the guilt for the weakness of the shield forces—we do—and we did it pretty well unilaterally. We know that N.A.T.O. lacks integration—integration of forces, integration of supply, standardisation of production and co-ordination of national policies—and we know that N.A.T.O. itself has a most mistaken, as I believe, nuclear concept.
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When I hear the Foreign Secretary telling us, as he did again today, that Germany must have areas outside Germany because the distance across the country is only 160 miles and inside that area there is, after all, so little that one can do, and then I remind myself that N.A.T.O. and the Governments are pressing on with putting nuclear missiles into the very area that is too small, too vulnerable and too dangerous to have stockpiles of equipment, I am bound to ask myself what kind of an Alice-in-Wonderland world we are living in.
I put all this last week to the Supreme Commander, who is a friend of mine—I am glad to claim him as such—and a man for whom I have the highest regard. Indeed, I regard him as about the best of the Supreme Commanders that there have been. I put this to him, but it would be very improper for me to give his reply. I would only say to the House that my impression is that if Ministers were clear about this they could give the military a much clearer directive about this than they have had and the mistakes which are being made would not then be made.
Therefore, I think that the Government's responsibility in this is very heavy. Let hon. Members look at the development of policies from Suez. Suez keeps on popping up in all these things. This is where it began. This is where the forces were taken away. This is where the alliance was left without supplies for more than fourteen days. This is where continental Governments first began to see that countries were not as committed to N.A.T.O. as they said they were. From Suez to the Minister of Aviation's unilateral actions, on to the Sputnik panic when we thrust I.C.B.M.s into the hands of the Supreme Commander, and now on to this tepid rewriting of the commitment by the Minister today, we see the whole chain of unhappy policy decisions which have led to the present German-Spanish position.
I will not go into the German-Spanish position except to say that if hon. Members will look at the Paris Treaties they will see there a passage which no Minister seems willing to recall. I do not understand why. The Paris Treaties not only state clearly what the responsibilities of the Supreme Commander are

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over all the combat troops allocated to him—and under N.A.T.O. they are very wide responsibilities—the Paris Treaties also specifically state that these apply to the training of these troops as well. As the Germans have no other troops at all except those committed to N.A.T.O., I cannot understand why somebody does not make this clear. So, certainly so far as troop training is concerned, under the Paris Treaties the Germans have no right to go anywhere unless the Supreme Commander, at the direction of the N.A.T.O. Council, authorises them to go. It is time that this also was made very clear.
I just want to issue a word of warning. I was in favour of German rearmament. As the House knows, I have never gone back on that. However, I would say to the House that the series of policy decisions which have been taken have led to a weakening of N.A.T.O. to a point which really is leading to an emerging German dominance which must be very worrying to all of us and in two years' time will be a very serious business indeed. It is leading to an over-emphasis on nuclear strike in N.A.T.O. plans. It is making the military the only arbiters. I think it is time the House as a whole saw where the policies of Her Majesty's Government are leading.
Last of all, I come to the area of the biggest mess, the greatest wasteful expenditure, the area of the long-range missile—the Thor and the Blue Streak. The Minister of Aviation has them both on his conscience. The White Paper makes it clear, and I thought the Minister made it clear, that Blue Streak is now about finished as a concept for succeeding the V-bomber as a means of delivery of our strategic weapon.
Paragraph 36—no doubt written very carefully with people's susceptibilities in mind—makes it clear, but it says a rather peculiar thing which was rather borne out by what the Minister said today. Having dealt with Blue Streak, he said: "However, it may be decided not to rely exclusively on fixed site missiles as the successor." We are not kidding ourselves, are we, that we can have more than one system of delivery? We really are not, are we, playing with the idea of having fixed site missiles and
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some air-launched missiles and some submarine-launched missiles? If we are, we had better get it out of our head right away. It is very inconvenient to be a Minister dealing with this subject—incidentally, it is also very inconvenient sometimes to be dealing with it from this side of the House—in which decisions of terrifying responsibility have to be taken. But in this field a decision has to be taken. We cannot have more than one system, and on this I am clear.
I warned against Blue Streak in 1957, again in 1958, and very strongly last year, 1959. Whatever credit there is for that, I would not know. But it has always been clear to me that a fixed site missile was an invitation and not a deterrent, that a liquid fuel rocket vulnerable to a near-miss could not be a possibility for us. I have always thought that fairly clear. Goodness knows how many hundreds of millions of pounds we have spent because the Minister of Defence would not listen on that subject.
We have the V-bombers today. They are a very powerful deterrent. The Minister confirmed what I myself had guessed here. One of them is rather short-ranged—perhaps I could go that far. I am thinking of the stand-off bomb. The life of the V-bombers as a credible deterrent gets us to around the middle nineteen-sixties. We have to deal with the position after that. The Minister says that we still have time to take the decision. I think he has to take the decision fairly shortly now.
The method, I think, has to be mobile. It can be from the sea or it can be from the air. I should have thought that the aerial one was still a long way off. We are talking here about something about which people in America are only thinking, not something which is actually within sight. I should have thought that consideration was beginning to point to the sea-launched missile as the only method that can arrive in time. I put this to the Minister as a thought to be borne in mind.
I have always seen some of the arguments—I have not deployed them yet this afternoon—for an independent contribution to the deterrent. They are largely political arguments. I will not go through them now at this late stage, but, whatever they are, they apply to the nose cone and they apply to the warhead but they do not necessarily apply

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to the carrier. There is nothing like the same argument involved in going into joint arrangements with somebody else about a carrier. If inter-dependence is to mean anything, I should have thought that here we should say to our American allies, "We now want to join in all this business of the carrier since we shall not be able to do it ourselves in time and there is no reason why we should and there are no legal obstructions like the MacMahon Act to this in your country."
When we talk about the early warning radar system, I do not think one can pretend that this station is for our early warning. That really is pressing it much too far. The Minister said that there would be fifteen minutes' warning. That may be so at one end, but it is four minutes at the middle. If rockets go up from East Germany or one of the satellite States, they may not be picked up at all. This is not for us. This is an early warning station for our American allies. I am not against giving it to them—it is the sort of service which allies should give to one another—but I do not see why we should pay £10 million a year for the privilege. Why should we not ask our American allies, when we do something for them, for a return service—this business of carriers is one of them.
The case for our Amendment is overwhelming. The Government are giving us less and less defence for more and more money. Despite all the years, all the Ministers and all the money, all the vital decisions and the vital provisions remain to be made. I ask the House to support our Amendment for those reasons.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. For the guidance of the House, will you indicate the Chair's intention towards the other Amendments? There is an Amendment in my name, to leave out from "House" to the end and to insert:
"deplores the heavy expenditure outlined in the Defence White Paper at a time when the Minister of Defence has stated that no country has an adequate defence against rockets and hydrogen bombs and when the Government should proceed with a programme of total disarmament which would end the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and Warsaw Pacts, result in the removal by the Great Powers of their armies and bases on the soil of other countries and enable all nations to spend the enormous sums they now spend on a futile, ruinous and suicidal arms race on plans for raising the standard of life of their
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peoples and assisting the underdeveloped areas of the world".
May we know at what point that will be called or discussed?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Gordon Touche): I understand that it has not been selected.
5.52 p.m.
Captain John Litchfield: It is a great privilege to take part in this debate. As a former sailor, I hope that the House will give a fair wind on this maiden voyage and a special measure of sympathy for being called immediately after the two Front Bench speeches to which we have just listened. I do not intend to lie entirely outside this engagement, and if I come under fire I shall not expect to be treated as a noncombatant.
I have the honour to represent Chelsea, and not the least alarming factor in my present situation is that so many right hon. and hon. Members—and, above all, until very recently, Mr. Speaker himself—are numbered among my constituents. That, of course, is a very great source of pride to me, but it is also a matter of some embarrassment that I am speaking to so many of my own constituents instead of, as is sometimes usual on these occasions, to the local Press. There is much I should like to say about Chelsea, but we are debating defence and I will, therefore, come straight to my first point.
I should like to begin by referring very briefly to something which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence also mentioned in his speech—the human factor, and I think that on this point Chelsea is a very good place to jump off from. The Chelsea Pensioners are familiar to hon. Members and I want to refer briefly to the pension rates of those who are still living on the old rates. I make no complaint about Service pay and pensions as they are as of today. In fact, I think that the Services owe a very great debt, and so does this House, to the Ministers concerned who have raised pay and pensions to their present level.
I am particularly glad, in this connection, to see the reference in the White Paper to the automatic biennial review which will take account of earnings in civilian life. However, there is one point on which the House is entitled to

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ask the Minister to take another and a kind look, and that is at the situation of these older pensioners, men who have retired perhaps many years ago and whose rates of pension have virtually not moved up, so far as I know. I may be mistaken on this, however. I also hope my right hon. Friend will look at the situation of the Service widows.
I am sure that all would agree that the Services today offer a really splendid career. My own son began a Service career three months ago, and I am very glad that he has done so. Today is in every way a good time to enter the Services, but there is still uncertainty in many minds, especially in parents' and schoolmasters' minds, about what is to happen when a normal Service career ends at some time in middle-age, which is earlier than it would be in most professions and in the Civil Service.
I think that this question of moving pensions up to some extent, and not letting them remain locked at the rates in force at the moment of retirement, is a factor which we should consider not only as a matter of human justice, but as a matter affecting recruiting as well. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will look at this matter with great sympathy, especially for widows. I am sure that he is aware that the only exceptions to the pensions being locked at the rates in force at the moment of retirement are field marshals, admirals of the fleet, and marshals of the Royal Air Force. They never retire, but go on half-pay and move up in pay with the Services.
One other aspect on the human side is the question of morale. I think my right hon. Friend made reference to that and I was very glad to hear it. I think that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) also referred to it, and I am sure the whole House would agree that morale in the Services today is very high indeed. I can speak with certainty about my own old profession, the Royal Navy. There is no doubt that morale is very high indeed in that Service. Pay and conditions have been transformed in the last few years, and I am sure, as I have said, that the Services are very grateful for that and appreciate it.
Yet pay and conditions are not the only things which make men tick, at
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any rate in the Services. They want something more than what one might call an "early morning cup of tea". We should remember two things: first, that officers and men need to feel the certainty that the country is behind them; and, secondly, they need to have a clear faith in a clearly-understood mission. With some feeling from my own experience at the receiving end, I should like to suggest that we here have a part to play in this. We have an opportunity in this debate to send forth a message of confidence and encouragement to the officers and men in the Services, to show them that the country and this House, whatever different views we may have on other aspects of defence, are behind them.
I should like now to turn briefly to a few observations on one or two broader aspects of defence policy. I will not deal with the latter part of the speech of the right hon. Member for Belper, but there are one or two things which can be said without fear of getting involved in controversy which, unfortunately, in my present situation I must try to avoid. I cannot recall a time when it was more difficult to form a confident judgment about the central issues of defence policy and strategy, and so on, than it is in the sort of Dan Dare age in which we are now living.
There are several reasons for this. Only nine or ten years ago it was fairly easy, inside or outside the Services, to think intelligently on the great issues of defence. It is much more difficult today. For one thing, we probably suffer from a lack of information about major problems in our defence system, which cannot be disclosed. However, this lack of information is, none the less, a handicap when we try to think intelligently and without party feeling on these great issues. Subject to security, I hope that my right hon. Friend will always do his best to keep the House really well informed.
Another factor is that the pace of progress today is far greater, and getting greater every year, than it has ever been. There is no doubt that research and development and the great advances made in weapons and equipment introduce many unpredictable factors. Finally, there is the astronomical rise in the cost of modern equipment. Quality

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goes up and quantity goes down for every £1 million spent.
There is one example of this which it may be helpful to refer to, as it can be applied to many other aspects of defence production. That is ship design. I imagine that at a time like this the Ministry of Defence and the Board of Admiralty have been considering the fleet which we will require, the next generation of ships which, I suppose, will be completed at the end of the 1960s or early 1970s and would, therefore, be operational during the 1970s and the 1980s and even the early 1990s. That is a very long time ahead, not only in years, but still more in terms of scientific progress.
Let us take the instance of the replacement of an aircraft carrier. I do not know whether we are to replace our aircraft carriers, but I sincerely hope that we are. I suppose that from the moment when the first sketch design is put on the back of the First Sea Lord's envelope, anything from seven to ten years will elapse before such a ship can be completed. I suppose that it would cost about £1,500 to £2,000 a ton to build.
When one starts designing a great vessel like that, a great slice of the national industrial effort which is to cost £50 million or £60 million, one is immediately faced with many imponderables and unpredictable factors. One example is the weapons. Are guns as we know them to be totally obsolete in ten years? Perhaps, Will aircraft in the 1970s and 1980s take off horizontally, or vertically, which would make quite a difference when one is designing an aircraft carrier? Is propulsion to be much as it is now, or will it be nuclear?
Those are all difficult factors involving a good deal of guess work and very nice judgment. It is not easy to design a great ship like that and stop half way so that it can operate different aircraft or have different propulsion. On the other hand, if the judgment of the designers today is faulty and we spend £50 million. £60 million, £70 million or £80 million on one ship which, in 1968, is obsolete, or nearly obsolete, what would this House have to say? But if we funk the issue and do nothing until the imponderables resolve themselves, we shall not have a ship.
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I mention those as practical and not theoretical problems, because I think that the right hon. Member for Belper was a little hard on the Government when he accused them of being slow in some ways and making mistakes in others. Hindsight is not a valid basis for criticism in there important and difficult matters. If we do not spend the money, we do not get the weapons and if we spend the money, we have, perhaps, a 25 per cent. chance of making some big mistake.
Those are all matters which we should consider when studying defence. I have no doubt that if we had known at the time what we know today we might have acted differently in some matters. But that is not the point and I should like to know just where the right hon. Gentleman's judgment would have differed from that of the Government if he had had available the information, and only the information, which was available at the time when decisions had to be made. I cannot help wondering.
Another change which has been mentioned is, strategically speaking, the shrinking in our overseas bases, a process which has already gone a long way and which looks like going a little further. That is why I am so glad that there are several references in the White Paper to the importance of mobility. If we can get our forces on a basis of true mobility and flexibility we shall have gone a long way to overcoming the serious strategic effect of the loss of bases which, for one reason or another, we have had to give up. On the subject of mobility, I hope that my right hon. Friend will give serious thought to a matter which merits consideration, the reinstitution in peace-time of at least an embryo fleet train.
I do not want to make more than a brief speech. There is much else which I should like to say, but I will spare the House. My last point, which is of great importance, is the interdependence between defence policy and foreign policy. In the foreign affairs debate the other day, I was struck by the fact that rather more than half the speeches from both sides and both Front Benches dealt with defence policy rather more than with foreign affairs in isolation.
I want to quote something recently said in another place, which, I think,

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should be borne in mind when we debate foreign affairs or defence policy:
"… one cannot have a foreign policy at all unless it has the backing of … force. We should only reduce ourselves immediately to the status of a second-class nation, with no power for good or ill."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 10th February, 1960; Vol. 220, c. 1154.]
I emphasise those last words, "No power for good or ill" I add to that my own experience, which is rather unusual in that I have so frequently worked on allied staffs—on the Supreme War Council with the French at the beginning of the war, the Combined Chiefs of Staff, in Washington, in 1945, the National War College of the United States, as well as our own Imperial Defence College—in all of which we have been not only inter-Service, but international.
I am sure that the importance of British influence in higher strategical thought cannot be over-emphasised. There must be many hon. Members of this House who have knowledge of allied councils, whether it be N.A.T.O. or with the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the war. Anyone who has had that experience will agree that British influence is quite invaluable, and usually out of all proportion to our share in the common effort.
I am convinced that the House should give firm support to the Motion, and I hope that I am not being optimistic in expecting it to do so.
6.11 p.m.
Mr. F. J. Bellenger: It is a pleasant task which I have to perform to congratulate the hon. and gallant Member for Chelsea (Captain Litchfield) on a thoughtful and very interesting speech, but he misled the House a little in his desire to be non-provocative, because he gave us the impression, or at least he claimed the status, of being a non-combatant, and for today we willingly accorded him that status.
Captain Litchfield: I said that I did not expect to be treated as a noncombatant. I am far from noncombatant at any time, but I did not wish to be unduly combatant today.
Mr. Bellenger: Whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman desired it, tradition imposed some limitations on us today—
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but, I might mention, only today. His speech was not combatant, which is not what one might expect from one having such a distinguished regular service with the Royal Navy. I understand that the hon. and gallant Gentleman was captain of "Vanguard", and I suspect that he carries heavier guns than he disclosed to us in his very admirable speech. I hope that when he brings those guns into action they may be occasionally turned on his own Front Bench in the way that I now propose to do. I am not a constituent of the hon. and gallant Member, but I live next door in the Royal Borough of Kensington, a constituency which I much prefer.
By way of a preamble to my remarks, I want to make something in the nature of a protest at the way we conduct our debates on defence. We are to debate this Motion for two days. We shall spend three days debating the Service Ministries on Vote A, and we shall follow that with the Committee stage, all concentrated into a very narrow period of time at the beginning of the year. Defence debates, particularly when used by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), before the war were spread out over the year and interspersed with foreign policy debates. I am wondering whether hon. Gentlemen opposite, or at any rate some of them, would agree—because they could get a change if they would co-operate with us—about spreading our debates on defence over a wider period. One must not think that having dealt with the Defence Estimates today, and having discussed the Service Estimates next week, or the week after, we are finished with the problem of defence. It is not a static subject; it is a dynamic one.
Listening to the Minister of Defence this afternoon, I was struck by his attempt to reduce tension in the House. I hope that the Government will be successful in reducing tension in international affairs also. As I listened to the right hon. Gentleman I could not help remembering debates before the war when the late lamented Sir Thomas Inskip was minister for the co-ordination of defence. We then had the same sort of reassurance—an almost placid assurance—that everything was all right with our defence. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford in those days did his best to expose those assurances,

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and, as we now know—and my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) referred to this at the beginning of his speech—we were lamentably short of weapons and other warlike material.
I understand that Sir Thomas Inskip was a great churchman. I should not be surprised to hear that the Minister of Defence reads the lesson, but when he comes to the House as the Minister of Defence and tries to talk to some of us who, like the hon. and gallant Member for Chelsea, know something about these matters, surely we are entitled to a little more information than the right hon. Gentleman vouchsafed to us today.
Having served in a Service Department, I understand the need for security, but when one reads White Paper after White Paper and compares them with what one went through before the war, are we wrong in having considerable apprehensions about our defence against a much more competent and powerful enemy, with a far greater array of devastating weapons than before the war, and in expecting to be let into the right hon. Gentleman's confidence a little more?
It may be—and I think his White Paper discloses this—that the right hon. Gentleman himself is learning his business. I do not blame him for reserving some of his decisions until a more appropriate moment when in his own mind he can be more certain that the decisions he is about to make are the right ones. Decisions made in the nuclear sphere are very expensive ones, and the nation is entitled to be assured that when a decision is made it is made in a context which eliminates, as far as is humanly possible, all mistakes.
In warfare, it is the unexpected that turns up. I do not know if the decision on Blue Streak was the right one. As the hon. and gallant Member for Chelsea said, it is so much more difficult today, even for an expert, to come to a decision whether the Government are pursuing the right policy. Her Majesty's Opposition are groping in the fog and trying to understand the subject from expert books and views that come from those who are supposed to know a good deal about defence. The White Paper creates a fog which we are not able to penetrate. The right hon. Gentleman did not do much to help us.
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I should like to refer to a book that has recently been published by Mr. Alastair Buchan, who is the Director of the Institute of Strategical Studies. Many hon. Members on both sides of the House are members of that Institute and are doing their best to try to follow the arguments about defence. It is from books like that, and other associations with which we are connected, that we derive our knowledge. The House cannot ask more than that unless on some future occasion we are given the help and guidance—although I wonder whether it will be so—of the hon. and gallant Member for Chelsea who, because of his recent high naval appointment, has some expert knowledge of these matters.
With all the limitations which I have explained to the House, I wonder how I should approach this topic. Having recently read Lord Alanbrooke's books on the Second World War, I am struck by one central feature. Whatever one may say about Lord Alanbrooke—and for a short time he was in the War Office when I was there—he was probably the greatest wartime military planner we have had for a generation or more.
What did he say about his controversy with the Prime Minister and Minister of Defence in those days—the right hon. Member for Woodford? He said that the controversy arose because the right hon. Gentleman would try to concentrate his mind on too narrow an area, whereas Lord Alanbrooke kept in front of him the global strategy. I have read the memoirs of the right hon. Member for Woodford and the books of Lord Alanbrooke, and I would say that in discussing the national subject of defence hon. and right hon. Gentlemen should try to envisage a wider area than that covered by the White Paper which is the background for our debate.
In trying to envisage what our policy should be, and what we have to meet—and all military planners must settle down to the job of defining who is the potential foe—we must bear in mind certain outstanding facts, probably the most outstanding of which are the things that Mr. Khrushchev says from time to time, and especially what he said to the Supreme Soviet in January last. I will

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quote from a report of his speech which comes from Russian sources. He said:
"The Soviet Army today possesses such military techniques and such firepower as no Army has ever had before."
He went on to say:
"… we already have enough nuclear weapons—atomic and hydrogen—and enough rockets for their delivery to the territory of a possible aggressor, so that if some madman should cause an attack against our State or the other Socialist States we should virtually wipe the country or countries attacking us off the face of the earth."
Is that mere boasting, or is it a reality? Let hon. Members cast their minds back only four years, when Mr. Khrushchev threatened that in certain eventualities some of his rockets might be directed upon London.
Although I do not think too much of her satellites, if the Russian forces are in possession of these powerful weapons it stands to reason that no responsible Opposition can deny to the Government or our military forces the means to counteract those weapons, so far as that is possible, if, by any chance, Russia should embark on what is called a preemptive strike, or even if she did not, but we had to go in for a second strike, as it is called in our military jargon.
We must have some of these devastating weapons ourselves, at any rate to try to weaken the willpower of Russia—who I submit is the potential for—in order to try to stop war, even if we cannot prevent it. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper, who speaks for the almost overwhelming majority of the Opposition, that nuclear strategy exists, and we have to take part in it whether or not we wish to, unless we are going to turn the other cheek. If any hon. Members advocate that policy, they should express it to their constituents and hear what they have to say about it.
I want to refer to area strategy for a moment. That brings N.A.T.O. into the picture. There is no doubt that the N.A.T.O. alliance in Europe covers a vital area in strategic plans. I am perturbed both by what I have heard from Ministers and from a knowledge gained from an intelligent reading of the news, as presented to me not by some but by many newspapers, that all is not well in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
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If that is so, how far is our own defence policy responsible?
Political indecision impedes military initiative. Only Ministers can solve that problem. But how can we expect military commanders to pursue a coherent policy if their directives are not right? Having listened to the exchanges which have taken place in this House over Western German depôts or bases in Spain, I have come to the conclusion that something is radically wrong. Although hon. Members may disagree with some of the things said by hon. Members on this side, I hope that they will at least agree that all is not well.
How can the Minister of Defence tell us that our defences are all right if we know that the largest military contingent of the N.A.T.O. alliance in Europe is faulty? That is what sems to be the situation, if the Chancellor of Western Germany is right about the need for extra manoeuvering power for training purposes and supply lines. It would be improper to go into the details of the N.A.T.O. alliance today, but I suggest that this is part of our defence policy. We cannot stand alone, even with our possession of the deterrent. We can use it only in association with our Allies. I am led to believe that the alliance is faulty in many respects. I do not know how we can alter it. All we can do is to give expression to our views in this House and hope that other hon. and right hon. Gentlemen will bring pressure to bear on the Government to try to put right what is wrong.
As for the Blue Streak, I am not a technician and I marvel at the technical knowledge which my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper brings to the House. I do not know whether he is right or wrong—that is for the Minister to say—but a challenge has been issued by my right hon. Friend to the Minister, and we shall want to hear the answer to it tomorrow night, if not from the Minister then from the Secretary of State for War, who, I understand, will intervene in the debate.
I should like to take up the question of the condition of our anti-submarine defences, and perhaps the hon. and gallant Member for Chelsea could enlighten us. We have heard without challenge that the Russians possess at least 500

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submarines, and that figure has probably risen since the estimate was made. What does the Navy possess to meet that challenge—the kind of challenge which nearly brought Britain to her knees in two world wars? This leads me to conclude that the object of the Russians is to engage in conventional war, so far as they are free to do so. There is the challenge, but we have heard little about the Navy's reply, although we may hear it in the Estimates debate. We do not know what we possess to counteract this serious challenge from Russia.
Hardly anything has been said about civil defence, although it is mentioned in the White Paper. I am of the opinion that what we are engaging in at the moment is expensive, but is nothing more than a facade. There is very little civil defence. I hope that the hon. Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) will agree that if we are paying out large sums of money for something called civil defence—or anything else, for that matter—we should know what goods are being delivered in return for the taxpayers' money. I have the impression—especially as we have had no debate on civil defence for a long time—that we are not getting good value for our money in that respect.
From time to time, some of us witness military exercises and see something of what the Army has in the way of transport. Every time I have seen these manœuvres or exercises I have seen little of something which is valued by the Navy, namely, the helicopter. I do not suppose it would be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to tell us how many helicopters we have, but I suspect that the Army is short of them. If that be so, where is the mobility about which the right hon. Gentleman spoke so glibly?
One thing he said I welcome wholeheartedly. I have indicated the lack of expert knowledge of most hon. Members—unless they are officially connected with the Government—regarding what is happening about defence. I welcome, therefore, the indication given this afternoon by the Minister that he would be willing to place facilities at the disposal of groups of hon. Members—presumably from both sides of the House—or individual hon. Members, to see what is happening in the three Services. I can think of nothing better.
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When I was at the War Office there was considerable criticism of what were called "brass hats". We had at that time a large influx of new hon. Members, straight from the battlefield as it were, and I was conscious of what some of my Parliamentary colleagues thought about generals. I was able to persuade the then Prime Minister to allow me to hold a reception at the War Office in order that the generals and the civilians could mix, and apart from the effect of the liquid refreshment I am bound to say that this mixing had a good effect on same of the critics of generals.
I am all in favour of bringing the military forces in contact with the civilians, especially as so many of them will be retired at a comparatively early age; so it is as well that they should get to know what civilians are like before they receive their "bowler hat".
We have to deal with things as they are, and we are not sure what they are. But, looking into the future, I think the time not far distant when the whole technique of defence will be changed. As I listened the other day to the explanation of the Minister regarding the early warning radar system to be installed in this country, as I read about the distant early warning in America and about sputniks and other foreign bodies which are released into the upper atmosphere, I wonder whether it will be possible to find a system of control of defence activities in other countries by means of discoveries of this kind.
It should not then be necessary to insist—as is being insisted by those meeting now at Geneva—on ground inspections. Such inspections may well be necessary to a certain extent, but may not the time come when these wonderful inventions may be shot into the air, not in order to reach the moon, but to put them in orbit around the earth so that it will be possible to photograph and detect what is happening in other countries? If that be so, and we get freedom, as we should have in that case, to carry out inspections rather than seeking the permission of other countries to inspect their factories, we may conclude that it was a good thing that the sputnik was launched.
I believe intensely in an international police force. This is an old subject which has been discussed ever since the first World War and before. But one

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practical example of what may be achieved is provided by the small, ill-equipped international police force which operates now in the debatable area between Israel and Egypt. Hon. Members may ask somewhat cynically how long will it last, but at least it has lasted for some time.
I do not object to hon. Members being sceptical about these arrangements, but I say that surely we cannot contemplate for ever this rush and competition between the countries owning these terrible weapons of destruction. At present there are three such countries; the number is to be increased to four and may be even more. Although hon. Members may think this a strange subject to introduce in a defence debate, I advance it as a serious argument and hope that if it is not pursued by the Minister of Defence, at least the Foreign Secretary or the Prime Minister may do something about it.
Obviously, this debate, and the result of the Division which we shall have tomorrow, will not settle this problem. It will not be settled by any methods at our disposal in the House of Commons. Therefore, it behoves those who agree with the Minister of Defence, that some answer to the deterrent should be provided in order to end war, to consider these matters. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman is after the wrong deterrent. I visualise a cheaper and more peaceful form of deterrent, if it will work, and so I suggest that at some time this subject to which I have referred should be discussed.
6.37 p.m.
Mr. Michael Hamilton: May I preface my remarks by saying that I have not spoken in this Chamber before? I find a surprising amount of common ground between myself and the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger). I am afraid that I cannot go all the way with him, but in deference to the tradition of this House I think it best to steer clear of controversy so far as possible. I hope that the points on which he and I disagree will be dealt with later in the debate.
I think I should explain that I represent the Wellingborough division, which is a part of Northamptonshire where
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good boots and shoes, including Service boots and shoes, are made. If hon. Members imagine that that industry engenders a pedestrian outlook among my constituents, they will be a little wide of the mark. In the shoe industry one quickly learns to distinguish between "left" and "right". Politically, Wellingborough is one of the most informed and wide-awake constituencies in the United Kingdom. The proportion of the electorate which went to the polling stations in October was 86·8 per cent.
Wellingborough can fairly claim to have made a contribution to the day-to-day affairs here in Parliament. In fact, Mr. Speaker, it was a predecessor of yours, who had his home in the division and who is buried there, who composed there a prayer which is read in this Chamber every day before our proceedings open. It is the prayer which enjoins us to set aside:
"all private interests, prejudices and partial affections."
Judging by some of the remarks made in this debate so far, I have the impression that after 400 years there is still a need in this place for such a prayer.
There are two subjects in the White Paper to which I wish to draw attention; finally, I should like to make a general comment on the report itself. Some reference has already been made to our forces in Germany. They figure on the first page of the report. I believe our troops there have reached a very high standard of training, as high as I think they are likely to reach in time of peace. I believe they are a credit to their commanders and, in the wider sense, a credit to the defence effort itself; but inevitably during the last year or two our attention has been diverted to other theatres, to the Mediterranean and other parts of the world. There is a risk we must constantly guard against of the British Army of the Rhine becoming a "forgotten Army."
They have enjoyed peaceful conditions, and we have all heard the current phrase, "Join the Armoured Corps and never hear a shot fired." I appreciate that there has been a great deal of re-equipment during 1959, but the fact remains that our troops are working very closely alongside Dutch and German

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units which are exceedingly well-equipped. We should do well to remember that and to bear in mind the effect on our forces of these competitive conditions.
Particularly—this is where I go some way towards agreeing with the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw—I should like to see those forces adequately equipped with helicopters. They are expensive things, I know. I am not suggesting this in order to "keep up with the Joneses"—if such a reference is still allowed—or because the Americans are well ahead of us in this field. I am suggesting, it simply because today the helicopter is the staff car; it is the reconnaisance vehicle; it is the delivery van.
Hon. Members may remember that last September—if they were not too preoccupied at the time—an exercise took place on Salisbury Plain for the Strategic Reserve. The exercise was called "Red Banner". The Press was there and counted the helicopters and commented unfavourably. I believe that on that occasion the criticism by the Press was a fair one. Admittedly there is mention of helicopters on another page of this Report, but I should like to see more of them in practice and not just in print.
So much for equipment. There is a further factor affecting closely the morale of our forces in Germany. That is provision of married quarters, in sufficient numbers and in the right places. It is true that we used to be very comfortably supplied in that respect. The trouble began when we had to redeploy to make room for the coming into being of the new German Army. Then we had to pack our bags, leave our billets, and move out into the street. We are still on the waiting lists. There again, there has been some slight improvement, and I shall not linger on the point, but I am confident that when the Minister really probes it he will find there is substance to it.
One final point on our troops in Germany. We have to remember that our forces are there in an operational rôle. The significance of this is that what we may choose to call "civilianization" cannot proceed at the same pace or to the same extent there as it does here at home. The result is that our administrative manpower in Germany is thin. We are well below strength in the jobs which
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at home are done by civilians. The result is that we have skilled men, fighting troops, who are having to be used in communications, in paperwork and in potato-peeling. I ask the Minister to bear in mind these brief points on equipment and married quarters, which so directly concern the morale of our troops and the administrative manpower situation, which I think is far from satisfactory.
Next, I wish to add a word on the subject of mobility, which is mentioned on page 10 of the Report. It is, of course, an axiom that the smaller one's forces are the greater must be their mobility. These three nicely phrased paragraphs in the Report make it appear quite a straightforward problem—a few more Britannias in the air and we are home but, in practice, I believe the Minister will find this problem of mobility more complex than anything with which he met in the Ministry of Transport. There is strategic mobility for which the Britannias admittedly are very well suited—that is, when we want to move troops, say, 5,000 miles—but we all realise that when they get to their destination they might be still hundreds of miles from the scene of action. Then it is that tactical mobility comes in and the Argosies have to take over.
As far as I know, that machine will be quite adequate. On the battlefield itself, I am glad to read, we are to have the Rotodyne. That is an admirably conceived, integrated air transport plan. I welcome it, but mobility is intricate because it involves all three Services, because it involves so many incalculables, because it involves, maybe, in this changing world, the impermanence of our bases in Aden, Kenya, Singapore, Cyprus and other places. Mobility is intricate because such a fine assessment has to be made of the optimum range of these transport aircraft. If trouble were to arise, perhaps in the African Continent, who is to say which of the other African States will allow us to overfly them? If there were problems for the Minister with the flyover at Chiswick, I should say that those problems were as nothing compared with the problem of moving our troops swiftly to the scene of trouble.
As for the Commando carrier, "Bulwark", all credit to those responsible. It is a very fine achievement. I

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think it most encouraging. I am glad in addition to learn from what he said today that the Minister realises that it takes two to do this job. We must have one in the Far East, but certainly another somewhere South of Suez, in the neighbourhood of the Arabian Peninsula.
I will say no more than this: I welcome this emphasis on mobility, although I believe that to implement it will be no easy matter. It is as important as it is difficult. I believe, however, that the Minister's previous experience will qualify him to grapple with it successfully.
May I say a word about the Report as a whole? As a newcomer to the debate I feel rather as if I were attending a shareholders' meeting. We have the annual report, the White Paper, in our hands. The board of directors on the front bench have been obliged by the calendar to put something in print.
Mr. B. T. Parkin: We have no dividend.
Mr. Hamilton: I have a feeling that a few people have been sitting around, sucking their pencils and wondering how to fill the pages. Admittedly, it is a brief report. We are glad to learn from it that there are to be two new schools in Aden, that we are to have improved accommodation in Libya this year, and that in the year under review four additional ladies have joined the Women's Royal Army Corps (Army Emergency Reserve). I wish them a very happy military career. I do not wish to decry this information. It is all very interesting and very valuable as far as it goes. After all, the five-year plan 'was thoroughly thrashed out here, I understand, in 1957 and it is claimed that this is no more than an interim report.
The Government's broad defence policy has undergone no major change. Moreover, nothing has happened to prove it wrong. The general body of shareholders have confidence in the directorate and, quite rightly, voted them back into office in the autumn. But I sense in the report a certain reluctance by the Minister to publish at all. After all, the plan, a very sound plan, was approved here three years ago.
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He has inherited it, but he has also inherited the perhaps questionable custom of reporting on its progress each year. I am not at all sure whom this custom is designed to help. I am not at all sure that it is not rather unsettling.
In saying this, I am advancing no criticism of the Minister, for I believe that he has a success story to tell and that it should be told. I believe that the easing of tension in the last year or two is in large measure due to the efficacy of our defence policy. I believe that this five-year plan has been vindicated and that it has given a sense of security and stability to those in our Armed Forces. I believe that it has made a significant contribution to the existence of military stalemate which, after all, is an essential prerequisite to any talks on disarmament.
But if I am right, then this report is curiously diffident. I accept that different people do things in different ways. The right hon. Member for Bassetlaw quoted Mr. Khrushchev who, last month, described Soviet military power as possessing such means of warfare and such fire power as no other army has ever had. We in this country do things rather differently. I appreciate that it is not our custom to use superlatives. Instead, we can go to Her Majesty's Stationery Office, pay 1s. and read Cmnd. 952.
Nevertheless, I should have liked to see more space in the report devoted to the nuclear deterrent. If our defences are strong, and I believe they are, then surely we should say so. I am not asking that we should be taken into the laboratory, but I believe that security considerations can be overdone. Peace today rests on the certain knowledge on all sides that no worthwhile alternative exists. It may sometimes appear that the truth can be harmful to a cause, but I believe that in the long run it is the decisive weapon, and it is not a secret weapon.
I should also like to see more space in the report devoted to the cost, and in a more readily digestible form. The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) suggested that. It is right that hon. Members on both sides of the House should concern themselves with the question of cost. I should like to see, perhaps in tabloid form, the

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encouraging way in which our defence expenditure is absorbing a decreasing proportion of our national income. This is far more encouraging than the position was in this respect, say, ten years ago. The Minister referred to this in his speech. I should like to see it in the report.
I do not like to see the Minister of Defence put on the defensive by having to sustain what is only a rather moderate report. I feel it is too full of uncalled-for explanation. Surely nobody believes today that we can get defence on the cheap. Nobody in these times will expect the defence policy to be inflexible. Nobody would expect a defence policy worthy of the name to be rigid and without these so-called "shifts of emphasis".
Next year the Minister may decide that yet another interim report is unnecessary. If he does, many of us will respect that decision. But if it is decided to produce a further White Paper I hope that it will more nearly reflect that phrase, "Publish and be damned". That phrase was credited to a man who gave much time here in former days to our problems of military defence. He is also credited with a second phrase, "There is no mistake, there has been no mistake and there shall be no mistake". That, I believe, is the position today.
6.58 p.m.
Mr. George Wigg: It is my privilege to congratulate the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. M. Hamilton) on his maiden speech. I well remember fourteen years ago making my maiden speech in a defence debate, and I should very much like to think that I was as lucid and provocative as he has been. We certainly hope that we shall have the opportunity of hearing him frequently in our debates. The next time he speaks, if he follows the theme which he has adopted today, I am certain that hon. Members, if not on his own Front Bench, certainly on this side of the House, will want to reply to him.
Having congratulated him, may I also congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on becoming Minister of Defence, although when one congratulates any right hon. Member from any part of the House on occupying that position, it savours a little of the sardonic. As it is
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probably the only kind thing I shall ever say to him, I should like to say it now. I congratulate him but I hope very much—and I am going straight into one of the criticisms—that he and I will not misunderstand each other.
This afternoon, I asked a serious question about the establishment of the armoured and infantry battalions in general. I thought that he was a little slick when he started to ascribe to me a change of front. May I tell him, here and now, that I have not changed my views about defence. I have not changed my views about the Government's policy, but I differ from my own Front Bench and I think that it is time the position was made clear. I do not feel that the Government's nuclear policy is either vacillating or confusing, it is clear and utterly wrong. Therefore, I propose tomorrow night to abstain from voting on the amendment put down by my right hon. Friends and I shall vote against the Government Motion. I propose to tell the House why during the course of my speech.
I want tonight to turn to two other points of criticism of the right hon. Gentleman, savoured with a little advice. My first point of difference with him was when I read in HANSARD that he had come to the House of Commons and said, after a speech made by General Cowley, that he had taken steps to see that General Cowley would never make that speech again. I say to him that as Minister of Defence he has enormous power, but he is not Secretary of State for War, and the discipline of the Army is derived from the Army Act and from the Sovereign through the Army Council. The responsibility for the discipline of the Army does not rest with the right hon. Gentleman, and he is taking a very backward step indeed when he warns senior officers that they must neither think nor say anything except those things which are acceptable to him.
The Secretary of State for War (Mr. Christopher Soames indicated dissent.
Mr. Wigg: The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War shakes his head. This is what is implicit in what was said by General Cowley. I do not know General Cowley and I have never had the opportunity of meeting him, but I am sure that he is an honourable and able officer. One can form a pretty

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shrewd idea of what happened. As a senior officer, he had read the highly intelligent appreciations of our defence position, which were circulating in the upper reaches of the Ministry of Defence and the War Office.
General Cowley was asked to give a lecture to the Royal United Service Institution, as many famous soldiers, sailors and airmen and civilians have lectured at that Institution. For perfectly good reasons, he gave a lecture based upon those appreciations. When it was published the effect on the then Minister of Defence was quite devastating. The Minister of Defence, now Minister of Civil Aviation, wanted his head for it. Indeed, I understand that it was touch and go whether he became an M.G.O. I congratulate the Secretary of State for War on his courage in standing up for General Cowley.
What was General Cowley saying? He was saying just what I am saying, and what every competent observer of the defence situation since 1957 has been saying: that the Government have their priorities wrong. Let me make it perfectly plain that in adding my name to the Amendment on the Order Paper in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), to leave out from House to the end and to add:
"deplores a defence policy based upon a nuclear strategy which, since 1951, has involved an expenditure of over thirteen thousand million pounds, which proposes to continue such expenditure at an even greater rate, and which affords to Her Majesty's subjects no effective defence".
I realised that there are many hon. Members on both sides who would not go the whole way with me. But we all have a common interest: we are parents and some of us have the privilege to be grandparents. We have a hope of survival; and we believe that the defence policies followed by both Front Benches can lead only to disaster.
The time has come not to turn round, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) said, and unilaterally walk away from nuclear arms, but to recognise what nuclear arms there are. If there is an effective deterrent in this country, all right; but I do not think there is. Britain and the whole of Western Europe lives under the
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umbrella of the protection offered by the strategic air command. When the radar warning system at Fylingdales is erected it will be part of the warning system of the strategic air command. I think that we are following desperately dangerous policies from every point of view if we delude ourselves into thinking that we possess weapons which in fact we do not possess.
I cherish those little utterances and publications which are made from time to time and I file them away. I have several which I have brought with me this evening. Let me give a good example. Just a year ago, when the Prime Minister was on the eve of going to Moscow, the then Minister of Defence who is now Minister of Civil Aviation called a Press conference. In accordance with namby-pamby traditions, the Press had stressed the fact that the Minister of Defence had not done the talking—as in fact he had. The heading in the Evening News of Tuesday, 10th February was:
"Blue Streak Wins. Go-Ahead for 3,000 mile Missile. … Now Macmillan will talk from strength."
It said:
"The Blue Streak which can be developed for space exploration … adds up to the fact that when Mr. Macmillan goes to Moscow next week he will be table to talk to the Soviet leaders from a position of impressive strength."
That was a year ago. Every newspaper of the next day carried exactly the same story. No one on our Front Bench pointed out this particular piece of nonsense. Indeed, had one got up and said it he would not have got very far. It was a fact to Britain that we had found the absolute weapon. The Blue Streak a year ago was "in" We were told that the Polaris was out.
What happened in 1957? My right hon. Friend this afternoon was absolutely right. The villain of all this, using the word "villain" in a stage sense, is the Prime Minister. In 1956 he made a speech—a pipe-dream—in which he said "Cut defence by £700 million. We are carrying two rifles instead of one." So when he became Prime Minister, quite rightly and properly, he asked the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) to become Minister of Defence. He, I say this to his very great honour, refused. I had

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my differences with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carshalton. I thought that his short-term, three-year policy was wrong. He and I have said hard things to each other. He is not here today. There is no hon. Member in any part of the House whom I respect more than the right hon. Gentleman. He had the courage and integrity to refuse high office because he knew that the policy will not be carried through.
The right hon. Gentleman the present Minister of Civil Aviation became Minister of Defence. I am not attacking his integrity. I think that he is an obstinate man and that occasionally he has been a little stupid. I have said that. I think that today I was not alone in thinking that, because when the present Minister of Defence paid his tribute to the great service which the right hon. Gentleman had rendered to defence, one could have heard a pin drop—the silence in all quarters of the House was positively deafening.
Let us see what the right hon. Gentleman did. He got rid of National Service. Of course, that found support on this side of the House. I have said, and I repeat again now, that if this country finds itself now or in the future in a position of mortal danger, if ever there comes a threat of the use of nuclear power on Great Britain, the responsibility for it lies on right hon. and hon. Gentlemen in all parts of the House who refused to face up to the implications of our defence contribution in the modern world, and opted out. Those who speak in favour of a nuclear deterrent may think that they are strong men and that they live on a diet of boiled nails. What they have done is to choose a soft and dishonest option.
I will deal first with the manpower question. The Secretary of State for War is more concerned with this problem than any other of his defence colleagues, because above all in the Army manpower is his raw commodity, much more so than in the other two Services. We begin now to get a picture. We are now two years away from the ending of National Service. We begin now to see what it means in effect. I managed to get in on the defence debate on the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill last July. I spoke for only a short time. I did not mention defence. Hon. and gallant Gentlemen opposite thought
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that by some means I was being overwhelmed by the recruiting figures. They thought that recruiting had so improved that my views had changed. This is not so.
Before the Defence White Paper of 1957 was issued I wrote an article. No one would publish it. I do not blame anyone for that. I was asked if I would allow it to be published in Peace News. I did not take any money for it. I am not a Pacifist. I will repeat what I said then:
"The object of the Government's manpower policy … will in the future let the rundown go on until it reaches a total of about 400,000, made up as follows: Navy, 80,000 to 90,000; Royal Air Force, 110,000 to 120,000; Army, 200,000".
I continued:
"Although the Navy and possibly the Royal Air Force may be able to recruit sufficient Regulars, it is my conviction that when the rundown reaches 400,000 there will still be a gap between the total number of Regulars in the Army and the minimum strength compatible with its commitment. I believe that gap may be very difficult, if not impossible, to bridge".
I wrote that in March, 1957, before the 1957 White Paper was published. It was true then and it is true now.
I read the 1960 White Paper with some interest. Three years after I made my prediction in 1957 the Government come to the House of Commons and say that they hope to get 400,000. Therefore, it was not a bad guess of mine. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen should note that the figure of 400,000 is the first open admission by the Government that they will not get their manpower ceilings. The original figure was 375,000. Although I asked the Minister of Defence on many occasions to break that figure down for the three Services, he refused to do so. In the White Paper a year ago the figures were 88,000 for the Navy, 135,000 for the Royal Air Force and 165,000 for the Army, making a total of 388,000. Last year the Minister of Defence announced that, because of the recruiting figures, he was increasing the figure for the Army from 165,000 to 180,000. Therefore, the total required to give the three Services the minimum they want is 403,000, and the Minister now says that the Government will not even reach 400,000.
I will take this a little further and take the story back to the time of the right hon. Member for Carshalton. If it

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comes to accepting his word against the word of the late Minister of Defence and—may I say it with respect—the present Minister of Defence, I say frankly that I shall take the word of the right hon. Member for Carshalton, because he has nothing to hide. On 28th July, 1958, the right hon. Gentleman said that his estimate was that we should want 45,000 in Germany. We now know that, because of political pressures from Dr. Adenauer and from S.H.A.P.E., the figure is now 55,000. We know also that the Minister of Defence has said—he said it in the debate last year—that we need 70,000 for our strategic reserve and our overseas commitments. Seventy thousand and 55,000 make 125,000. We need at least 25,000 in the pipeline, and any hon. Gentleman with any staff experience knows that that is putting the figure on the low side. That 25,000 is for recruits and for those who are non-effectives, either because they are at the termination of their engagement or in hospital. That brings the figure up from 125,000 to 150,000.
Now I take the figure of the right hon. Member for Carshalton. He said that 70,000 would be needed for staff, for the workshops and for home commands. Turning to his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War, he offered to bet him that the figure of 70,000 was right. Therefore, we have a figure of 220,000 men who are required. That is on the basis of the evidence given us, first by the Minister of Defence and then by the right hon. Member for Carshalton.
It is an extraordinary thing that that was not the first time we heard the figure of 220,000. The right hon. Member for Carshalton in the speech to which I am referring said that as Secretary of State for War he had set up a committee in the War Office. No sooner had the committee been set up than every journalist in Fleet Street knew all about it. That committee reported what it wanted for the Army, and it wanted 220,000.
Last year we saw some signs of dissent from the present Minister of Aviation on that figure. The reason for that was quite simple. Subsequently a further exercise was done and by taking certain risks the figure was whittled down to 200,000.
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The picture before us now is this. Forty-nine battalions of infantry do the work which was done by 128 battalions before the war. I will give all hon. Gentlemen a specimen of what passes through military thinking, as was expressed by the Minister of Defence this afternoon. Did hon. Gentlemen hear the right hon. Gentleman tell us about all the stations that British troops occupy at present? Were not they thrilled? Did not they almost go outside the Chamber and want to sing "Rule Britannia" when they heard that we had troops stationed in the Caribbean, in Nassau, in British Honduras and British Guiana? Hon. Gentlemen may be interested to know that in each of those places we have one company of the Royal Hampshire Regiment. Would the right hon. Gentleman care to deny that? We have one company in each.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: How many men?
Mr. Wigg: I am obliged to my hon. Friend, because I might have forgotten that. A year ago when the 15,000 increase was announced we were told that it was to be split up and that the establishment of infantry battalions which was, and still is, 635 was to be increased to 800. That is why I asked the Minister of Defence this afternoon what establishment the infantry battalions in Germany were. I will tell the right hon. Gentleman that they are at the lower establishment.
The hon. Member for Wellingborough spoke much more to the point than he knew. He said that in Germany we have no services. Of course we have no services. Why are we organised into seven brigade groups? That is because they are teeth units. One can take three battalions and it looks a lot better if one breaks them up into teeth units. There is no secret about this. It was announced in 1957. A specimen of the breakdown was published in the memorandum of the Secretary of State for War last year.
I could carry on with this subject for a long time, but there is one thing in which I was proved right. As I was proved right over the three-year engagement, so I have been proved right over this. I am not clairvoyant. This is not psychological perception. It is simply the head of an old soldier. When he

913
adds 2 and 2 together he calls it 4. He does not call it 5 because it is politically convenient to do so. That is the recipe for this, and this game has gone on on both sides of the House.
Let me give an example—and I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) is here, because we have had one or two examples from him. We had one example that I thought was devilish—and that is the word I use. I refer to the three battalions in Berlin. My right hon. Friend wanted them to defend themselves against two Russian divisions. That is what he argued in 1957, and if he wants to deny it, he can.
I had the experience last year, in company with my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) of sitting in a pine forest outside Berlin. We were visiting East Berlin troops. Quite by accident we ran into a real party, attended by Marshall Pengteh-Luai, Chinese Minister of Defence and Deputy Prime Minister. He had a real party with him. Let no one tell me that behind the Iron Curtain they do not have "brass-hats". The "brass-hats" really had turned up. What they said on Germany sent a shiver down my spine, remembering, as I did, those three battalions. They said that an attack on Berlin, an attack on East Germany, would be regarded as an attack on China. I wonder what they did in Peking when they heard what the right hon. Gentleman had to say.
If it had been put into effect, what was to happen in Hong Kong? I might say that I have a family interest there, and I am one of those who support defence. I have a nephew, a Regular N.C.O., serving in my regiment in Hong Kong. The thought came to me, "I won't play politics with other men's lives, even when it's politically convenient."
Let us come to 1958. What did the right hon. Gentleman do a year ago? All the theories had changed then. For the purpose of dodging the realities of the situation he still wanted to pretend that the West was capable of taking on the Russians. Therefore, he and his advisers had invented a theory called the one-in-three theory. That theory said that provided one could show that the defence was approximately in the
914
proportion of one-in-three, everything was all right. That meant, "The Russians have 100 divisions, so the West has to have about 33 divisions."
If the right hon. Gentleman cares to look up the speech he made in the defence debate last year, he will find that, without contradiction—unfortunately, I did not get called, or I would have remedied that—he asserted that there were 28½ divisions in N.A.T.O. Would he care to contradict that now, and to say that there are? Of course he would not. There are not 28½ divisions in N.A.T.O.—the target was 22. There are 15—and the 5 German divisions and the 1 Dutch division to make up the strength are nowhere up to strength. However, that does not matter, apparently; one has the proportion right, so just invent it, and make it 28½.
That would be all right if politics were still a game and the country's defences and its capacity were such that we could afford to do this and get away with it, but I do not think that we can. My only reason for coming here and speaking as I do, forcing the Government to have a defence debate when they do not want one, because they say there are no votes in it, is that I think it essential that our people should know what is going on. They must know what they are paying for, what they are getting, and what the Government are up to.
There is another little illustration. I remember only too well speaking here in a debate on 31st July, 1956—the year before it was fashionable to oppose Suez. I opposed Suez, because I knew that it was not a starter, and I said so. I said that when I heard the cheers on both sides of the House in favour of strong action on Suez, I had an almost uncontrollable desire to be sick, because there was not a single swept-wing fighter squadron in the Middle East. The facts proved me right.
There is a little quotation that I would like to read from an American paper—though it does not hit the light of day here. It states Nasser's opinion:
"I never thought the British would use force. I have very good intelligence. I knew they weren't ready."
In that same speech in July, 1956, I had pointed out that a very famous regiment, the 2nd Battalion, the Grenadier Guards, had been stationed in Suez, but

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was 300 below strength. That information came from the Household Brigade Magazine, which underlined that fact. Yet we all pat ourselves on the back. We have got rid of National Service and, scattered all over the world, we have a litter of under-strength units. The House may one day appeal for strong action and, once again, British soldiers will be asked to pay with their lives because politicians have not the guts to face the truth of the situation. That is the stark truth.
We are getting rid of National Service and hon. Gentlemen can be proud of that if they like. I would much sooner tell people the truth, quite honestly, or join my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) and go pacifist, rather than that we should be bellicose and pretend we are patriotic, and then run away from our commitments and obligations.
I want to say a word about Sir Anthony Eden's memoirs "Full Circle", published today. It is rather striking that his opinion of the right hon. Member for Carshalton should be something like my own. Sir Anthony says:
"I have no doubt"—
speaking of the right hon. Member for Carshalton:
"that he would have proved to be the best Minister of Defence this country has had since the close of the war, had he been continued in office after I resigned."
That is praise, indeed. But talk of stabs in the back—that was a little hot. Let us look at who the Ministers of Defence have been. We have had the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), the present Foreign Secretary, Lord Monckton, Field Marshal Lord Alexander and, last but not least, the Prime Minister himself. That means that Sir Anthony has taken the opportunity of saying what he thinks of the Government's present defence policy. Indeed, it is what any hon. Gentleman must think about our defence policy.
I have talked about men. I have made it perfectly clear to those who have eyes to see that the present White Paper will prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that we shall not get our 403,000 men, that, in any case, even the 403,000 is not enough—
Mr. Watkinson: Perhaps I may interrupt the hon. Gentleman for just a moment. If he reads the White Paper rather carefully he will see that all that paragraph 19 shows is that if one takes the arithmetical progression forward on the 1959 rate the strength of the Armed Forces will be a little under 400,000. But it does not say what they will be; it merely gives the arithmetical progression.
Mr. Wigg: The right hon. Gentleman does not give me credit for charity. I have accepted the arithmetical progression forward on the recruiting figures, but the latest are for January, and if the recruiting figures do not go up in January, all I can say is "God help us". Of course, they have gone up to January, but in actual fact all that the recruiting figures have done is what all recruiting figures do, and that is to borrow strength from the future. Of course, the figures have gone up, but even if the arithmetical progression forward works out, the Minister will still not get his 403,000. Even if he did, we know, on the evidence of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carshalton, that he would still not have sufficient men. He will not be able to increase his establishment, and cannot face up to things as they will then be.
That is not all. I have dealt with men—let me now deal with equipment. We heard from the Minister today that if we have small forces we must have the best possible equipment. I certainly do not dissent from that, but let us see what we have.
I have here an official document which contains the comments of a senior officer at the War Office. Brigadier Fernyhough, the Director of Ammunition and Stores. I will read an extract:
"The equipment to fight a war exists in the form of War Reserves. Unfortunately, at present we have no plan, and therefore no War Reserve to implement it. This needs some explanation. Plans have been forwarded. But in the strictly practical sense a plan is no more than a piece of paper or an attitude of mind unless it can be translated physically into the stores, vehicles and ammunition necessary for it execution. This has not yet happened.
For several years, no decision has been made by the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury which will enable equipment to be bought to bring our limited War Reserves up to the level necessary to implement the latest tactical and strategic doctrine. It follows that the means to fight a limited war are confined to

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what can be retained from the residue of an incomplete re-equipment programme which was stopped several years ago. This process is officially known as 'living on our fat'. We are not even supposed to make up deficiencies in unit war equipments from maintenance as this would mean earlier buying for peace maintenance. All operations including Suez have had to be equipped by improvisation using out-of-date, incomplete mobilisation packs and feverishly making scale issues from stores left over from the last war. In relation to its small size and large commitments, the British Army must be one of the worst equipped in the world. Yet the Treasury continues to urge us, with loud cries, to avoid over-insurance. It is rather like advising a starving man to avoid over-eating."
Later he refers to the Suez operation. I must tell hon. Members that he refers to the pround name of "Musketeer" and thinks it would have been far better if it had been called "Per ardua ad hoc".
I do not dissent from that point of view. Here we have the evidence, first from the then Minister of Defence and the right hon. Member for Carshalton, on manpower, and now from the Director of Ammunition and Stores on the equipment of the Army. Let us take the matter further. We were told in May, 1957, by the then Secretary of State for War:
"We have under development an anti-tank guided weapon which should, if all goes well, remove the heavy tank from the battlefield."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th May, 1957; Vol. 570, c. 229.]
This is why I laughed a little this afternoon when the right hon. Gentleman spoke about our successful heavy tank. A year ago, we were told—here I quote from Flight of 5th September, 1958—
"Fairey Aviation have been permitted to state that they are the contractors for the anti-tank guided weapons for the British Army first announced in the House of Commons in May, 1957. The Secretary of State for War then said"—
then we have the words I have already quoted about our having
"under development an anti-tank guided weapon which should, if all goes well, remove the heavy tank from the battlefield."
That weapon is still not with us, and, of course, we shall never hear any more about it.
Now let us bring the argument a little more up to date. In 1957, it was said that we must get rid of National Service. Today, we are told that quality is the thing which matters for the best equipped Army in the world. We were to have no
918
more V-bombers and no more fighters, we should have Blue Streak, that wonderful anti-tank weapon, and all the rest. This is the kind of statement which hon. Members are asked to accept and which, with unfailing regularity, they do accept.
I have here the Air Estimates for 1960. I will quote from paragraph 10—if the right hon. Gentleman had read this out this afternoon, he would have received loud cheers—
"The Mark 2 Vulcans and Victors will be capable of carrying both free-falling and 'stand-off' nuclear weapons."
That statement is an admirable one. The only trouble is that we have no Mark 2 Vulcans and no Mark 2 Victors and we have no stand off weapons. Allowing for that, the statement is quite right.
I noticed that there was no sub-title to the Defence White paper this year. In previous years, we have had such titles as, "Report on Defence—Britain's contribution to peace and security." I thought that it was a strange omission. When the right hon. Gentleman was reminiscing my mind went back to days forty years ago when I used to sit in the barrack room—no money in my pocket and no coal in the fire; we had burnt everything we could lay our hands on—and someone would say, "If only we had some eggs, we could have eggs and bacon, if we had some bacon". That is fitting comment on the White Paper. That is all it is—sales talk, in every particular.
Let us look now at the weapon which is dear to the hearts of all politicians, the absolute weapon, the thing which brings us to the point where someone can sit in the Ministry of Defence, just press the button, and that is the end of everything. On 10th February last year, the Minister of Defence told the assembled Press correspondents that we were going ahead with Blue Streak and in The Times of the next day it was said:
"Certainly it sounds as if someone is determined to have a land-based Blue Streak deterrent".
We were told in the course of the announcement that Blue Streak would go underground; it would go into a silo. Here again, this is the sort of thing which satisfies the primeval instinct in man. Anyone who has served in the infantry knows that he always likes to try to get his head down; he feels safer that way,

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even if he is not. Therefore, if you put the thing into a hole in the ground it ought to be better.
But I ask the House to think of what it has cost. This little bill so far—here I rely on evidence which has appeared in the Press which I am not myself able to check—for developing Blue Streak and the associated weapons comes to £600 million.
Mr. Watkinson: Nonsense.
Mr. Wigg: I hear the right hon. Gentleman say "Nonsense". I am not referring to the one weapon, of course, because he intends to stop it, but the whole effort to secure an absolute weapon, the press-button weapon, has cost us not much less than £600 million. If the facts are different, the right hon. Gentleman can tell us how much. This does not give anything away which should be subject to security. At any rate, it has cost a vast sum of money.
Of course, it is possible to gain more information from American sources than British sources on some of these things. In the United States, something was thought theoretically possible as far back as 1957. When the Americans fired Minuteman, which was a solid fuel rocket, from a silo, the whole shooting-match collapsed. Old Joshua was right. Sound does destroy. Make enough decibels and the vibration is such that the whole thing collapses.
A year ago, the Minister of Defence could not say to the House of Commons that he had abandoned Blue Streak. If he had, what would have been the position? We had, on paper at least, got rid of National Service. All our Services were starved. We were faced with a vista of under-equipped units. We had no successor to the V-bomber, and we had nothing to put in its place. What is interesting is that both the Minister and my right hon. Friend have spoken today about Polaris. We are going into the submarine business now. Having failed with a hole in the ground, we are now going to try a hole in the water.
Let us come back to the evidence. This is not what I say but what the Minister of Defence said a year ago. Speaking of Polaris at a Press conference on 10th February last year, he said—according to The Times—that
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"It would be extremely costly. It was unlikely to remain undetectable, and its movements could be closely watched by an enemy."
This year, hon. Members are asked to forget the arguments advanced by the Minister of Defence a year ago, because they were then politically expedient, and now they are asked to accept that we are getting rid of Blue Streak and intend to fall back on Polaris.
There is not any dispute between me and the Government Front Bench or with the Opposition Front Bench about our weakening our defence. I am more committed this year than ever before to the need for defence. I shall not weary the House with my very good personal reasons, but that is a fact. What I shall not be party to any more is a refusal to face the facts because it is not politically expedient.
The right hon. Gentleman had about as bad a Press for his Defence White Paper as it is possible for a Minister to get. That is tough luck on him. If he wants to work his passage, it is very simple. He should start to face the truth, then he can face the future.
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman noticed that one of the best leading articles was in the Financial Times the last sentence of which states:
"… we should leave to General de Gaulle the fatuous search for national prestige through the belated and technically inferior production of weapons that belong in the arsenals of powers richer than ourselves".
We want to serve the cause of Western democracy. If we are to provide a defence which is adequate both from the point of view of global warfare and from the point of view of making a contribution to the stability of the Commonwealth, the first thing that we must do is find the will. The greatest contribution that we can make is to inspire the other democracies in Western Europe with a determination to make the sacrifices which are necessary to provide a defence that is viable.
I remember going with my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington to Brussels in 1951, when S.H.A.P.E. was born. There was then talk about 90 divisions in Europe. We have never yet had twenty. We are not in sight of twenty divisions. If we had thirty divisions in Europe which were viable and which had the reserves and equipment which are essential, we should not be talking

921
the nonsense that we are talking about nuclear deterrents.
We have our Vulcans, our Victors and various other items of equipment. I certainly do not advocate throwing them into the sea, but what I do advocate is this. If the Minister of Defence wants £1,700 million to build up his reserves, he should not, as an afterthought, cut back his Defence Estimates to £1,620 million. He should face the House of Commons with the truth. When he reaches the point, which he will reach, of becoming convinced that it is not possible to carry the commitments which the Army is asked to carry on the basis of the establishment, then he should come to the House of Commons and tell the truth. If he thinks that we are a pusillanimous and ignorant lot, he should remember one very simple thing, namely, that when the British people have been told the truth they have never run away from their obligations, nor from their duty.
7.44 p.m.
Mr. Nigel Birch: The hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) said that he will not vote for the Opposition's Amendment. That is one thing on which we are agreed, because I shall not vote for it, either. However, there are other points of agreement between us which I hope to bring up in my speech which I shall try to make a little shorter than that of the hon. Member.
I do not quarrel with this year's increase in the Estimates. If Service Ministers look at what is going on elsewhere, they may well be astonished at their own moderation. Nor have hon. Members opposite any right to quarrel with the amount. They made the atom bomb. They wanted us to have the H-bomb. They wanted an independent deterrent and the means to carry it. They wanted tactical nuclear weapons, highly paid Regular forces and mobility. All these things are extremely expensive. It is not much good complaining when the bills come in for what one has asked for. It is then too late.
While I do not quarrel with the total amount, I have some doubts whether the expenditure is laid out to the best advantage. One thing about which I am certain, however, is this. Our defence policy, once again, is in the position in which it has been most of the
922
time under both parties ever since hon. Members opposite started rearming in the late 'forties—that is to say, it is bursting at the seams. There are more plans and projects afoot than possibly can be carried through within any reasonable defence ceiling.
In the White Paper, apart from anything else, there are projects for 11 different types of missile and 12 different types of aeroplane. If these projects are carried through, it will be impossible to have significant quantities of any of the weapons. We therefore run the risk, not only of wasting money and scarce skills, but, at the end of the day, of being weak everywhere and effective nowhere.
If I am right, what should guide us in the readjustment of our policy? As the House knows, in the balance between nuclear and conventional weapons, I have, like the hon. Member for Dudley, always leaned to the side of conventional weapons. While saying this, I must make it clear that I think that a Western deterrent is absolutely vital. We must play our part. We must give facilities to the Americans and we ought to do everything we conceivably can to push on with the Fylingdales project. Without that, the American deterrent would cease to be credible in a short time. Anyone who suggests that that is not so is, I believe, guilty of treason to the alliance. I can use no weaker words.
In this balance, I think that the first thing about which we should be clear is that in our relations with Russia everything depends on the alliance. Here, I should like to quote with approval a few sentences of what the Minister of Aviation said when he was Minister of Defence on 26th February, 1958:
"With the increase in the power and range of modern weapons, no country can any longer defend itself in isolation. The conception of separate national defence has been almost wholly replaced by that of collective security organised through a system of alliances."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th February, 1958; Vol. 583, c. 386.]
As I say, for the big picture, that is obviously true. What we must decide is how best to arrange our affairs so that we can make the most useful contribution to the alliance, of which we are a part, and also have the right sort of arms for our own more particular though

923
desperately important interests—the Commonwealth and our friends all over the world. I do not believe that those two interests conflict.
First, let me say a few words about the alliance. Of what is the alliance short? I do not think that it can be said that the alliance is short of nuclear weapons. If the Americans are not surprised, they can over-hit Russia. They have a vast quantity of nuclear weapons. I agree with many hon. Members that where the alliance is short is in conventional forces. I have never believed that the Russians were in the slightest degree likely to start a all-out nuclear attack. Nor do I think that they are the least likely to advance 200 divisions up into Europe, the sort of attack envisaged in the 1958 White Paper. What we shall get, and have been getting all over the world, is the indirect attack, probably not involving one Russian soldier—internal subversion, or the production of a situation which, though highly damaging, does not affect our vital interests.
Subversion, the indirect threat, such circumstances may be productive of such a situation where, if one has not sufficient conventional forces, there are only two things one can do—have a nuclear war or give in, and with the certainty that, if one gives in, the circumstances will be reproduced again, all over the world, so that, gradually, one's strength and moral influence will seep away.
Some people have said, notably the right hon. Gentleman for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), that we can make up for our shortage of conventional arms by the use of tactical nuclear weapons. I have often heard the right hon. Member for Belper say that. When I have heard it I have often thought of some lines of Belloc:
"Whatever happens we have got,
The maxim gun and they have not."
But the trouble is that they have got the maxim gun.
If there are two gangs and one is armed with bicycle chains and the other is not the gang with the bicycle chains can afford some numerical inferiority, but if both gangs have bicycle chains the situation is as it was before—the advantage lies with the gang with the greater numbers. I am told that today
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the best judges believe that in a battle in which both sides are armed with nuclear weapons the side with the greater numbers will have an even greater advantage than usual, for the simple reason that the casualties on both sides will be so high.
Then some people say, "We are short of conventional weapons. We agree that tactical nuclear weapons cannot make up for that, but what about our prestige, what about our influence? Have we, in fact, increased our prestige, increased our influence, by doing away with conscription, by running down our conventional forces and substituting for them and building up our own nuclear deterrent?" I do not believe that we have. I do not believe that that is true. I believe that it is the exact opposite of the truth. I myself believe that our influence in the alliance will vary in proportion as we are able to supply to that alliance what the alliance really wants and needs.
In any case—and this is the real burden of what I wanted to say to the House—is it really possible for us to make our own national deterrent credible on our own? The other day the Foreign Secretary, winding up the foreign affairs debate, was talking about the position of Germany in the context of the old Europe. In the old Europe, over the last four or five hundred years, there has been a continual struggle for hegemony, made the more bitter because hegemony in Europe meant the mastery of the world.
There was Spain under Charles V and Philip II, France under Louis XIV and Napoleon, Germany under William II and Hitler. But is that any longer the reality? Does power really reside any longer in Western Europe? The great military power now resides in America and in Russia, not only because they have the numbers and the wealth, but, perhaps more important in modern conditions, because they have the great advantages of distance and dispersion.
How can we on our own, in a country like all the other old European countries, "cabin'd, cribb'd, confin'd", in a small space, and not as part of an alliance, contemplate using such a weapon as the great deterrent? It seems to me nonsense. Think for a moment of yourself perhaps sitting at the Cabinet table in 10 Downing Street and saying,

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"Shall we do this on our own in the certainty that not only shall we be destroyed, but that the cause for which we are fighting will be lost?" It is not possible; and the impossible is not done.
If we want, as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dudley said just now, a real illustration, then is not the detonation by the French of their atomic device in the Sahara the final reductio ad absurdum? So much for the independent deterrent. Take part with allies, but do not use it alone.
Turning to our own particular interest, what have been the weapons used by the ideologies in this great struggle. Surely, they have not been nuclear weapons. A nuclear weapon has not been set off in anger since Hiroshima. The weapons used have been money and conventional arms, money to lend and invest all over the world. That is for another debate, but, of course, it has a reference to our spending on armaments.
Conventional arms have settled many things. Conventional arms ended French influence in South East Asia. Conventional arms have kept Malaya free. Conventional arms have kept Hungary slave. And so it has been and will go on being. We have great responsibilities not only to the Commonwealth, but to friends all over the world with whom we are allied and to whom it is vital that we should be able to bring timely assistance if they ask for it, and that can be done only by conventional arms.
Have we got enough? I do not speak with the certainty of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dudley, who, I am sure, could inform the Adjutant-General of the strength and distribution of his forces at any time. I have not the hon. Gentleman's information. Have we got enough? I do not know, but I entirely agree with what my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) said—I suppose it was two years ago—that he deeply regretted that we had not left the legal framework in being so that we could institute selective service if it were necessary to do so. I have always regretted that we did not do it. But there it is.
I absolutely agree that we must keep our forces in N.A.T.O. I meant to say that earlier. I absolutely agree about that, but, of course, the real difficulty is to keep our forces in N.A.T.O. and have
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some reserve without conscription. I do not think that it lies in the mouth of anybody who forced the abolition of conscription and did everything he could to "scrub it", now to complain we have insufficient men. That is not consistent.
In our recruiting I suspect that the key difficulty will be recruiting for the administrative services of the Army. I hope that we shall not have too much nonsense about the teeth and the tail. I do not think that the British people have entered any conflict where the length of the tail was too great in proportion to the teeth. It is not a British vice. As conventional weapons get more complex, and fire power increases, clearly the sharper the teeth the longer the tail must be.
That is all I wanted to say. What is the conclusion of the matter? The non-nuclear club is no answer. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper raised that again today. There might have been something in it if, either just before or just after Lord Attlee detonated his first atomic weapon, he had started it, but he did not. I think that before, or just after, we detonated our first hydrogen bomb, it was possible. That was, just conceivably possible. But the Labour Party was all in favour of our having the hydrogen bomb. Why did the Labour Party take up the non-nuclear club? It was because of a hostile vote in a union, and that hostile vote took place because certain Right-wing members of the union were sunbathing. Suddenly to change the policy in these grave matters for such a reason seems to me to show a levity which is almost obscene. The non-nuclear club is out.
Nor do I think that we should leave the nuclear club. We have a part to play, and to opt out of it now would cause confusion and weakness at a critical time. However, we ought to be perfectly clear that anything we do with nuclear weapons is done as part of an alliance and never in our purely national interests. That means that Blue Streak should be cancelled forthwith—it will be out of date long before it is in—and it also means that if we are to go on with a deterrent on a mobile platform, either a submarine or an aircraft, we must do it in full partnership with the Americans and not try to struggle years behind at vast expense, as we have so often done.

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My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence has not given us many of his private thoughts and views. I think that he is right not to do so. He has not had time yet. However, he has a flexible mind. He does not see everything as black and white. He does not look forward only to total peace or total war. I believe that he will, after deep thinking, decide on certain variations in our present policy. I believe that he has the ability to discharge his great office with credit, and I pray that he will be granted every success.
8.2 p.m.
Mr. Harold Davies: The House has listened to an interesting debate on defence. To deal with topics which are different, I do not intend completely to take up the points made by the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch), but there are some things which we should consider. The right hon. Gentleman, who at one time had certain responsibilities, has suggested that we should attach ourselves to N.A.T.O. The loyalty all the time, however, seems to be on our side, on the side of Britain.
There are some questions which we should ask. I do not entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg). He has done his arithmetic and has been correct in his analysis of the troops and of the danger of following a policy or strategy which depends on the nuclear deterrent—and that I agree with. But we have not had from either side of the House the answer to the arithmetic and to these arguments.
We now have what is called a White Paper on Defence. It is not a White Paper on Defence. The first axiom of the House of Commons since the discovery of the atom bomb and the hydrogen bomb has been that no longer should the White Paper which is presented each year be called a White Paper on Defence.
I should like to trespass a long while on the time of the House, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley did, but it would be unfair. I shall try to concertina my remarks into a short period and to touch upon one or two fresh points. I may irritate one or two
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hon. Members, but I hope that they will not interrupt me.
My first point is that to call the White Paper a White Paper on Defence is a complete misnomer. I can quote the speech made last night by the Secretary of State for War. Both sides of the House of Commons had better get this clear. I am not joining in this lie. I can be as self-righteous as anybody else. To call the document a White Paper on Defence is a lie to the British public. The Secretary of State for War, in effect, said, "There is no defence. My purpose is solely to build up a deterrent, because we know that if there is a war it will only bring destruction, and complete destruction, to our own country." That is the point of the report of what he said at Folkestone yesterday, as reported in The Guardian today. We have reached a pitch, therefore, where to call the document a White Paper on the Defence of Britain is a complete misnomer, because in the nuclear age there is no defence.
My next point is about the United States. The other day I asked the Admiralty what negotiations had been taking place about submarine bases here. If any nation could claim that it has not space for military activities, such as Dr. Adenauer is claiming in respect of Germany, surely it is the poor little British nation. On the Norfolk coast we have much less area than Germany has, and yet that is the only part of Britain which, according to the 1958 White Paper and the speech of the previous Minister of Defence at Canberra, we intend to defend, because no other part can be defended.
The House of Commons ought to know today whether there is any truth in the leak in the Press that negotiations have been taking place with the Americans for submarine bases in Britain for the use of Polaris. Also, there is a Motion on the Order Paper in the names of right hon. and hon. Friends of mine claiming that, in any case, the public have been misled in respect of the money which has been spent in that we have insufficient conventional troops and no means of delivering nuclear weapons if we are to possess them.
While we are in this position we see the Germans negotiating for bases in

929
Spain. I am not being bludgeoned any more by any party into voting for the nuclear rearmament of the German people. The greatest tragedy in the history of Western Europe was that the British Labour Party voted for German rearmament. I went to France a week later and was at the French Social Democrat secret meeting, and the answer that I got from our opposite numbers in France was, "You voted for German rearmament. If you had not done so, we should not." The reward that we have got for trying to place the German nation in the same position as ourselves today is that since they think they are free—it is not the German people, who want peace as much as anyone else in the world; it is the leadership—the leadership is forcing the pace. So we have the present situation in West Europe.
The defence and foreign affairs policy laid down by the Labour Party, at its conference in 1958, was to try to build a security system for Europe, bringing together the Warsaw and N.A.T.O. forces. I invite hon. Members to read the American military security programme and the speech of President Eisenhower to Congress last year. What are the figures revealed? President Eisenhower revealed to the American people that the allies have spent six times more on N.A.T.O. than the Americans have, that the American military security programme has employed 600,000 farm and factory workers and that for every dollar spent on aid, military and economic, the United States get 80 cents spent in the United States and 50 per cent. of the goods are carried on American ships. The United States have thereby been able to spend £7 billion worth of surplus agricultural goods. Some hon. Members opposite guffawed when I said earlier that it is time somebody spoke for Britain. What I meant was that it is time we had a policy which would show our independence. We are being forced along by the frenetic fears of American militarism at present.
Commander J. W. Maitland: Then why did the Americans have an adverse balance of payments?
Mr. Davies: The allies have spent six times more than the United States in N.A.T.O. It is no use the hon. and gallant Gentleman shaking his head.
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These are facts, placed before Congress this year, and I can give chapter and verse for my figures. It is time that any British Government tried to take a policy independent from that of the United States, and that has not been done.
Our foreign policy and defence have become completely mixed. It is ridiculous to talk of the integration of defence when there are two economic systems in Europe—the Six and the Outer Seven. We cannot separate the economy of Europe from defence. The "Sixes and Sevens" are quarrelling, yet we expect to have unity in N.A.T.O. General de Gaulle carries on despite the 49 or 50 votes against him. We have a complete contradiction inside the supposed allied unity in Europe, and the British public are all the time "carrying the can".
We are now to put up this ridiculous machine, costing £40 million, pointing the wrong way—because, like Singapore, we shall be attacked from behind. Is this lunacy to go on much longer? The farmers in my constituency are receiving a booklet called "Civil Defence for the Farmer". I will sit down after this, because the sheer idiocy of most of the language in the House today makes me think that the world is on the point of suicide.
This booklet contains such headings as, "Has Fall-Out Any Effects on Breeding?" It refers to the need for a shelter in the cowshed and points out that every two days the cows will be in pain and will need to be milked. Has fall-out any effect on breeding? Oh, yes; we are told that calves might be abnormal, or that the beast will be sterile and that it would be dangerous to eat the meat. But if one is very hungry and is in this cupboard in the cowshed for a fortnight there may be some eggs and a little meat, some parts of which are not affected. The booklet points out that there will be warning, so that enough water should be taken into the cabin. We have just been through our driest summer for many years. I had to ring up the fire brigade to bring water to my farmers. Now they are told to store up enough water unaffected by radiation.
When will somebody break the situation? One hon. Member has said that

931
he believes that Russia will not make a major effort to attack us. Field Marshal Montgomery has said the same. I am asking the people to risk something. If there is war, this island will be a radioactive incinerator. If we have arms, and war breaks out, Britain is finished. Cannot we give a lead to the world, which needs courage as much as massive rearmament? It can be done.
Some day, in the near future, the British people will put into power a Government—I do not know what its politics will be—prepared to take that moral risk for the future of mankind. All these documents, all this White Paper on Defence, are a complete lie before man and God, and as far as I am concerned, in my own name, if not my party's name, I will not have anything to do with the idiocy that I have heard in this House on defence in the atomic age.
8.14 p.m.
Brigadier Sir Otho Prior-Palmer: I cannot follow the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) too deeply in his somewhat varied arguments. I thought that at one moment he was arguing that we should "go it alone" in our armaments, without America, and that, later, he advocated total disarmament. How any hon. Member can do that after what we saw at the beginning of the last war, I do not know. Disarmament was advocated by hon. Gentlemen opposite before that war, and we had to send men into battle ill-equipped.
Mr. K. Zilliacus: Nonsense.
Mr. Stephen Swingler: Nonsense.
Sir O. Prior-Palmer: There is only one thing the Russians understand and that is strength. We all know the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus), who shouts "Nonsense". We all know where his sympathies lie. I do not know why he does not join the Labour Party.
Mr. Swingler: I was saying "Nonsense" because the hon. and gallant Gentleman is once again spreading the untruth that the Labour Party, in the 1930s, voted for disarmament. That is
932
quite untrue. Again and again Labour Party spokesmen expressed the party's support for collective security and the party's preparedness to vote for arms for collective security. That was done again and again, but this distortion is still spread.
Sir O. Prior-Palmer: I happen to remember that period very well—
Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman withdraw what he has just said? He made a very serious allegation against the second party in the State.
Sir O. Prior-Palmer: Hon. Gentlemen opposite voted against the Service Estimates, against conscription, and sent one of their chief leaders to Swathling to try to stop the men from working on Spitfires. They turned over a big Conservative majority in East Fulham against the Government on this issue and got in on that. What was that except preaching disarmament all through those years before the war? I heard those speeches—
Mr. S. Silverman: I happened to be in the House throughout the years now being discussed, the middle 1930's and 1935 onwards. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is right in one respect. It is true that the Labour Party in those days voted against all the Service Estimates. During the same period we voted against all the Education Estimates, all the Health Estimates, all the Labour Estimates—in fact, the Estimates of every Government Department. We did it with a set purpose—because that was the constitutional and traditional method by which Government policy on the subject could be attacked. When we voted against the Minister of Labour we did not mean that the unemployed were not to get the dole next Friday.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Sir William Anstruther-Gray): I hope that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) will remember that he is making an intervention in the speech of another Member.
Mr. Silverman: I apologise if I have abused the courtesy of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but he was making a serious allegation against a whole party in an historical context of the greatest

933
importance. I am sure that, now he understands what did happen, he will have the grace to withdraw the accusation.
Sir O. Prior-Palmer: I understand exactly what happened. I followed every move.
Mr. Silverman: Then withdraw.
Sir O. Prior-Palmer: I have not the slightest intention of withdrawing. I can quote figure after figure. It is absolutely true. I shall not withdraw one single word.
Mr. de Freitas: It is disgraceful.
Sir O. Prior-Palmer: Hon. Members should realise what our men were fighting with as a result of what had been done.
Mr. Silverman: There was a Tory Government in office.
Mr. Zilliacus rose—
Sir O. Prior-Palmer: No, I cannot give way any more. I am merely replying to the pacifist nonsense spoken by the hon. Member for Leek—the sort of nonsense which resulted in the death of many very gallant men.
It is too much to ask the Minister of Defence, who has been in office only four months, to make any major changes in his policy. What I want him to do, as I am sure he is doing, is to have a hard and long look at the legacy left to him by his predecessor. There are one or two detailed aspects of the White Paper and some larger aspects to which I want to refer.
My right hon. Friend has boasted of the production of the new battle tank. This is a very fine weapon, but I hope that it will be the last of the conventional tanks. The time has now come when we have to find a different type of tank for a different rôle. The tank is no longer an anti-tank gun, but a weapon which is and should be used in its original rôle, infantry destruction. I hope that there is research into a new, light, mobile type of tank which is easily airborne.
The career structure affects the Army more than the other Services. As a result, I hope, of a little advocacy on my part and by others, during the past year we have managed to get a complete revi-
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sion of the career structure for officers, in that we managed to persuade majors who were not recommended for promotion to retire. We gave them an incentive to go and that gave an incentive to bright young officers who could see promotion ahead. It also helped in the recruiting of officers.
I hope that I shall be contradicted, but there appears to be a retrograde step in the White Paper, for officers are now to be allowed to stay on until they are 60. They can retire at 38 if they wish, but I am not sure that it should not be compulsory for a man who has no future in the Service to retire while there is still time for him to get a good job in civilian life, so that he will not clutter up promotion and prevent bright young men getting to the top. I cannot think of anything more distressing to young men, and worse for the character and personality of officers, than for a man to know that for another twenty years he will remain a major and have a dull, sedentary job.
I am delighted that warlike stores are to be taken over by the War Office. I have been advocating that for years. I have one reservation. The Admiralty knows how to deal with these things and with the Treasury officials in the Admiralty. I only hope and pray that the dead hand of Treasury control inside the War Office will not nullify the advantage now to be reached.
Mr. George Lawson rose—
Sir O. Prior-Palmer: I have already given way five times.
Mr. Lawson: I want to have just a brief explanation.
Sir O. Prior-Palmer: I have given way five times. Time is going. I must finish my speech.
I now come to one of the most important topics in the White Paper. For what they are worth, I want to give my views about Blue Streak. What I have to say is not something new. This is not something which I have thought up in the last five minutes. I have said this in the House in debates of this kind for the last five years. I have always said that a static deterrent weapon is not the weapon for the future. Over and over again I have said that if we are to have

935
one of these weapons—and I shall not argue that now—it must be mobile.
The reason is very simple. Whereas, in the old days, a nation fighting on interior lines of communication was supposed to have an advantage, as did the Germans in both world wars, with the advent of nuclear weapons nations fighting on the periphery, with exterior lines of communication, now have the advantage, while the disadvantage is with those nations with interior lines of communication. That advantage is completely nullified if deterrent weapons are static. That is why at this very minute a large proportion of the Strategic Air Command bomber force is in the air—so that it cannot be annihilated or destroyed in one stroke. With that goes the other advantage of dispersion.
In all defence planning, it is not a question of what would happen if a thermonuclear war broke out. We all know that that would be the ashes of the earth. The point is—and this must be stressed over and over again—that if the Russians know that they will suffer such devastation that practically all their cities will be wiped out within 1¼ hours of their taking any thermonuclear action they will not take it. That has kept the peace of the world for ten years and it will continue to keep the peace.
Mr. Zilliacus: Why should they do it, anyway?
Sir O. Prior-Palmer: It must be borne in mind that it is not a question of abolishing this or that weapon, but a question of preventing war, of abolishing war once and for all. All war is horrible. It is only a question of degree. It is only because these new weapons will kill more people in one go that nuclear war is that much more horrible. But I can assure hon. Members—and many have seen it for themselves—that it is just as horrible to be fried inside a tank. It is a question not of abolishing weapons, but of abolishing war and that can be achieved only with a proper disarmament agreement with proper, uninhibited facilities for inspection of all countries. We must keep up our guard and make it certain to any potential aggressor that it is not worth while pulling the trigger.
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This country has a very big task, and there is no other country in the Western Alliance with a similar task. It has to be prepared for three different contingencies. We have to have the deterrent to prevent a global war. I suggest to my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) that I have never heard anyone advocating that we should "go it alone" with our own nuclear weapons. He put up a ninepin and knocked it down. Our own thermonuclear weapon is part and parcel of the integrated deterrent of the Western Alliance. It must be regarded in that light and not considered in any other.
Mr. Austen Albu: Is it not a fact that our possession of a nuclear weapon has always been stated as being necessary in case the Americans were unwilling to take action in the event of aggression against us, in which case it was presumed that we would have to take action on our own?
Sir O. Prior-Palmer: I do not agree that that has been the official attitude of the Government, although it may have been stated by others. Our possession of the weapon is part and parcel of the integrated deterrent of the Western Alliance in which it is necessary that we should play our part.
Another commitment is in the event of a limited war. This country is in a position to have more influence than any other in more parts of the world where a limited war is likely to break out. That is something for which we have to prepare more than we are now doing. It is vitally important that we should be able to move our strategic reserve to parts of the world where it can be used effectively, with heavy arms, tanks and guns, if necessary.
This is by no means an easy problem. I and others have done as much as we can to try to persuade our friends in N.A.T.O. and in Europe to realise that the day may well come when there is an extreme emergency in some part of the world so that our troops would have to be used in the limited war rôle, and, perfectly legitimately, taken out of the Brussels Treaty arrangements to do so.
Meanwhile, we have our own strategic reserve for use in that contingency. It is vital that it should be moved at speed. I am a little optimistic about the airlift.

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We are not as badly off for aeroplanes for lifting troops as some people try to make out. What worries me is the necessity to man, maintain, and stockpile dumps in various parts of the world to which troops will be flown. Most of these dumps and stockpiles are in countries where nationalism, quite rightly and legitimately, is beginning to show.
I do not believe that we can rely on keeping those bases for any length of time unless they are on friendly territories bound to us by treaty, such as Turkey. I believe that they are a hostage to fortune. I am, therefore, delighted to see that at last—and I have been saying this for three years—we are to have a Commando Carrier. We must proceed step by step towards floating bases. We must have floating bases not only for commandos, and a helicopter or two, but for tank workshops, ammunition stores, and everything that is required for a small integrated force. That is the object towards which we should move, and I am grateful for the first step that has been taken towards achieving it.
I hope that we can be certain of the site situation. It may be that to start with we shall be allowed to stay in an area, but who is to say that the people in charge now will be in charge of political life in Cyprus in five or ten years? Who can say that precisely the same thing may not happen in Cyprus as happened with the Suez Canal? The agreement was straightforward and troops moved out of Cairo into the Suez base. There was no reason to suppose that they would have to move out altogether. Eventually, however, they did. There is no reason to suppose that a new leader may not spring up in Cyprus, and that eventually we may have to get out of there. I would be far happier to see all the money that is being spent on that base being spent on the development of a floating base, or on the development of a base on the mainland of Turkey, which is an ally in our North Atlantic Treaty Alliance.
Bush warfare is our third commitment and we must cater for it in places like Malaya and Kenya. It is 100 per cent. possible, and it has been done, to fly out troops properly and completely equipped for that kind of warfare, but it is done too late. Action for that kind of war
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should be taken well in advance. There must be proper police action, and not the kind we have heard of recently. This is a matter for the Colonial Office and the Foreign Office. They must not ignore the reports of their accredited agents in various areas of the countries concerned and throw those reports into the wastepaper basket. They must accept these reports, and act on them immediately. That is not what happened with Mau Mau. The district officers were sending in reports one and a half years before the Mau Mau trouble broke out and nobody took any notice of them. We must be completely and adequately prepared for putting out a fire before it gets out of hand.
In my capacity as Defence Chairman of the N.A.T.O. Parliamentarians Conference I shall bring this forward. It has been brought up many times and at the last conference a strong resolution was passed unanimously by the committee of 16 nations, including the French, that there were two weaknesses in Europe. First, there is no integrated air defence in Europe. As we know, the French have been a little difficult over this. They have been sticking their toes in and preventing it happening. Having seen the way in which the North American air defence system is integrated between Canada and America under one command, and the way in which all those forces act as one unit with their early warning system stretching right across the north coast of Canada and down to the Pacific, it is now accepted that that is what we should have in Europe.
The French delegation of nine or ten Members of Parliament—and some of them were de Gaullists—were so impressed by that system that we were able to get through the strongest possible resolution to the Council of N.A.T.O. that something must be done. I see from Press reports today that there is a ray of hope. I hope that my right hon. Friend will press this when he goes to the N.A.T.O. Defence Ministers' conference at the end of the month. I believe that there is a compromise on which the French will agree. The door is slightly open, and we must shove it wide open, go through, and get this done at the earliest possible moment.
I know that standardisation presents difficulties. I know how difficult it is to

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get factories in various countries to rejig and retool their factories and standardise screw threads. It is no good crying for the moon, because one will never get it, but there are other ways of achieving what is necessary, and I suggest to my right hon. Friend that he should take a leaf out of the infrastructure system for Europe. That system has complete integration and standardisation and can be applied to the mobile aspect of European defence. It will not be difficult to do that. It could be taken over lock, stock and barrel and applied here. It is not just a question of having the same rifle or the same aircraft as the other man. Incidentally, I do not know why we have to go for the Malkara anti-tank guided weapon when the French have a perfectly good one.
Are we justified in incurring this great expense for a guided anti-tank weapon? How many rounds a minute can it get off? How long does it take to reload? It is all right for knocking out one tank. If, as I saw for myself, a National Service man with not much service can get into a Centurion tank and fire off 16 rounds in 48 seconds, knocking out 12 tanks with the first 12 rounds and two more with the others, it is not bad going, and I very much doubt whether any guided missile or similar weapon could do anything like as well as that. I hope that this point will be carefully considered. A ground-to-air guided weapon is another matter, but for a tank on the ground, when all that can be seen is the top of a turret, or nothing at all if it is properly camouflaged, I doubt whether the money is being wisely spent.
The problem is the standardisation of the whole of the rear organisation and supply system of the various armies comprising the European contingent in Europe. There are different supply systems, and different organisations behind each of the various armies. What will happen if a corps or two divisions are moved from the south to the north? There will be chaos. We must get this straight. Let us have a conference and get it done at the earliest possible moment.
When he goes to the meeting of the Defence Ministers of N.A.T.O., at the end of this month, will my right hon. Friend please consider the question of the boundaries of command within the
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N.A.T.O. structure, especially in the Danish area and in the Straits of Gibraltar? He has only to look at those lines on the map to see that they make absolute nonsense. I hope that something will be done about them. It is up to him to get together with the other Defence Ministers so that pressure can be brought to bear upon the Foreign Secretaries at the Council.
Another big question is: what are those 600 Russian submarines for? Some people imagine that they are there to starve this island out in the event of a global conventional war, but I find that very difficult to believe. I cannot see such an eventuality occurring. Are they there to outflank N.A.T.O.—to act as a counter-blast to the strategic bomber force? Are they there so that, one day, Russia may face the West with an ultimatum to the effect that she has 150 submarines lying on the bottom of the sea off the east coast of America, all armed with thermonuclear weapons and capable of firing them from the bottom without being detected, and that unless something is done those weapons will be fired?
I cannot begin to answer the question why they are there, but I know that it is utterly wrong that Commander-in-Chief Atlantic should have inadequate forces to deal with them, and I am certain that our contribution towards dealing with them is not as great as it should be. Any commander in the Atlantic would welcome more helicopters, antisubmarine submarines, and all the other new devices that go with the detection of the submarine.
Finally, I do not believe that 7½ per cent. of our gross national product is too much to ask the country to pay for its security, having regard to the increase in our national income.
8.41 p.m.
Mr. J. Grimond: I served under the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing (Sir O. Prior-Palmer) during the war, and I have served opposite him in this House. He is a great expert on defence, and I will touch upon a few of the things he said during the course of my speech, but there are three matters upon which I wish to comment straight away.
First, I was extremely glad to hear him say that he is against the establishment

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of fixed nuclear weapons in this country. Secondly, I was also glad to hear him say that he is against the setting up of bases in countries whose future is uncertain, which bases often become hostages, and seem ultimately to dictate policy rather than serve it. Thirdly, it is possible that we sometimes over-estimate the Machiavellian intentions of the Russians. It is possible that this enormous submarine programme is a hangover from Stalinism. There is a good deal of evidence to show that Stalin never believed in a nuclear war, but liked the good, old-fashioned type of conventional war, and that this programme was merely allowed to run on. I do not know whether that is true, but it is possible.
The more that one reads about or takes part in discussions on defence the more one realises that it is like philosophy. Its language is becoming ever more technical and obscure. It is fairly easy to attack any system of defence but it is difficult to defend it. I would say that all defence policies are wrong, but some are wronger than others, and one of the wrongest is that of the Government.
I agree that the Western Alliance as a whole must possess an adequate deterrent, and also that that deterrent must be provided by all the weapons available and not merely the long-range nuclear deterrent. Nevertheless, there is no reason why Britain should make and possess her own nuclear weapons for this purpose. Both the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing and the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) seemed to be arguing that we must have a separate deterrent but must never use it except within the scope of the alliance. I thought that one of the main arguments for a separate deterrent was that we might need it if other members of the alliance did not want to use a deterrent and we did.
I find it difficult to see what purpose we should serve by maintaining a deterrent under other conditions, especially if, as the right hon. Member for Flint, West tells us, the Blue Streak, which is the chosen instrument of the Government, is no good and should be given up. If the Western Alliance can be relied upon it is sufficient if, within it, there is a deterrent. At the moment that deterrent is held by the Americans.
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The Minister of Defence used a revealing simile about the position of the Americans and ourselves in this matter when he spoke of the enormous number of nuclear weapons possessed by the Americans and how some of them were rushing down the course while others were breeding and others were in the stable, and so forth. The right hon. Gentleman said that out of all of those we had to pick one little foal, or perhaps not even a foal, perhaps something yet unborn, and to put our money on that.
This seems to be the dilemma of this country and to my mind highlights what is the difficulty of trying to maintain one little nuclear deterrent. The last Minister of Defence assured us on 26th February, 1959, that there was no chance that the Americans would in fact back down and desert us. He said:
"The United States has given categorical assurances that she will regard an attack upon any N.A.T.O. country as an attack upon herself and will come to its aid with all necessary force. Her Majesty's Government place complete reliance upon these solemn undertakings."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th February, 1959; Vol. 600, c. 1418.]
I notice that the Army League, in a document published recently, also concluded that we would not fight a major war against the Communists without the United States as Allies. I should have thought that was enough and that if these statements are to be believed, as I think they are, the possession by the United States of the deterrent was sufficient.
In the meanwhile the argument against the concentration by Britain on nuclear arms seems to me to become more and more widely accepted. We have heard powerful arguments against it today. It is more than doubtful that such arms would deter the Russians by themselves or that they add significantly to the power held by America.
If we get into the realms of biological and space warfare the likelihood of an efficient British deterrent seems to me still more remote. In a defence debate we are arguing about what the defence situation should be two or three years hence, or that is what we should be arguing about. For the next few years there are the weapons we have, together with the weapons which Defence Ministers consider we are going to get, but a great

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many of those have been no more than a gleam in the eye of various Defence Ministers—they have never been brought to birth.
The V-bomber force is in being, and if it has a stand-off bomb no doubt it is a good weapon if it exists. But it will become less effective, and now we have these powerful arguments against the Blue Streak—that it is very large and difficult to load quickly with liquid fuel, that it cannot be moved and it may be too vulnerable. It may well be that it is, in modern language, a highly sophisticated weapon, and that it has in its nose instruments to enable it to do the sort of things which the shell in Mr. Bateman's cartoons during the First World War was capable of doing, such as pursuing bicyclists round trees. But if it proves impossible to get the missile off the ground it will not be much good. The Minister himself has told us that it is becoming more doubtful whether we shall not have to pin our faith on a mobile weapon. In fact our deterrent is, and will be, largely in the realm of hope rather than reality.
I do not know what warning we are likely to get of a Russian attack. There have been the discussions over the warning systems to be built at Fylingdales and the most optimistic rumour appears to be that there will be a warning period of about fifteen minutes. There are the attempts by the Germans to get greater death in defence and the advantage which we are told by the Government that the mobile missile carrying submarine will give us. Both these are attempts to gain time as well as space. This seems to me to make it less credible that an effective deterrent can be based on Britain alone, or if it can, that there will be any political control of it. Within the time envisaged I do not see how there could be any political discussion about whether or not the deterrent should be used.
A further disadvantage of the present policy of acquiring our own nuclear weapon is that it encourages other countries to do the same thing. That has not been mentioned in this debate, but it has caused a lot of anxiety. We know that there are eleven other countries besides Britain and France who are probably capable of making a
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nuclear weapon. I find that prospect frightening and I should have thought that some form of control must be arranged.
There are those who think that the more countries which hold nuclear weapons the greater security there will be. I cannot share that view. I am glad to say that I do not think the Minister does either, because at the beginning of his speech he said that the objectives of the Government's policy were disarmament and deterrence. The type of war he seemed afraid of was one which might start almost by inadvertence through people making a miscalculation. If nuclear weapons spread into more and more hands there would be a greater danger of someone making a miscalculation and it would divert more and more energy from peaceful to warlike purposes. Would anyone sleep more soundly in his bed if Colonel Nasser or the Israelis had nuclear weapons?
As to the cost of maintaining a separate deterrent, the Minister is quite justified in saying that as a proportion of our national product the amount spent on defence is not so big as some people think, but, if we take into account the amount spent on research which goes into the deterrent as well as its actual development, the percentage of the defence budget for these purposes must be something between 15 per cent. and 30 per cent.
Mr. Watkinson: Did I understand the hon. Member to say that the actual deterrent cost 15 per cent. to 30 per cent.?
Mr. Grimond: No, I said that, taking into account the research, the whole of the nuclear weapon programme research and development—it is extremely difficult to say how one allocates it—is 15 per cent. to 30 per cent.
Mr. Watkinson: It is much nearer 15 per cent.
Mr. Grimond: Also, by the time it is completed, if it ever is completed, the Blue Streak programme will have cost something like £500 million. What seems alarming is not so much the present costs but, if we are to attempt to "keep up with the Joneses"—a fashionable phrase this week—we shall have to go in for submarine-based nuclear weapons and it will become more

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and more expensive. I should have thought we should face a very steep increase in costs if we kept on this course.
In the meantime, as the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) said, our conventional forces are under strength, short of modern weapons and certainly not mobile enough. I should have thought that the total cost of a deterrent would not be £100 million extra, but would ultimately perhaps double the defence budget. It would become a strain on our resources and leave much less for other purposes, such as aiding under-developed countries.
I do not deny that we could do this. Of course, we could if it were absolutely essential, but is it essential and would it be useful? I do not think it would be. As competition between East and West turns to trade and aid rather than to war, as the danger of war if it exists seems to lie in the Far East and the Middle East rather than in Europe, we are unwise to go on with this expensive policy. I do not believe anyone can really think that nuclear weapons will be what we want if there is trouble in the Far East or the Middle East.
Surely the priorities point elsewhere and it is those priorities that we have to get right.
I want to talk only about N.A.T.O. In N.A.T.O. we should turn our attention to conventional weapons. As the Minister said, it is vital to be able to fight a conventional war so as to give a breathing space before anyone attempts, if they ever do attempt, to use nuclear weapons. For those purposes, we ought to ensure that N.A.T.O. troops are armed with conventional weapons. The aim at the moment, I understand, is 30 divisions and we probably have the equivalent of 21 divisions on paper. But they are very under strength. It has been suggested, by Liddell Hart among others, that we can even do with fewer than thirty if they are really mobile and backed by local militias. If we really put our backs into it and mean business, we can build up N.A.T.O. to become a reasonably reliable shield with conventional weapons.
So far, we have not made much effort to do this. I do not think that the fault is ours alone; it is a fault belonging to the whole of N.A.T.O. The N.A.T.O.
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forces must be well armed and they must be mobile. If we look again at the Report of the Army Study Group, we see that it came to the conclusion that it is unlikely that the British Army will ever use atomic weapons except in alliance with the Americans. I think that that is true and that it re-emphasises the need for conventional weapons.
I have another comment to make about N.A.T.O. As much unity of purpose as possible must be injected into the alliance. It seems to me that the controversy about German bases in Spain has highlighted the suspicions that exist in N.A.T.O. We have made up our minds, for better or for worse, that Germany is to be part of the N.A.T.O. alliance. I am bound to say that she is not the first nation which has embarrased her neighbours within the alliance, nor is she the first nation to have bases in Spain. I believe that we ought quickly to learn the lesson of the German fiasco and to tighten, as far as we can, the means of consultation and the political control in N.A.T.O. Certainly the British Government must take their share of the blame for some of the disunity in Europe. It is now very much in our interests to break down these divisions and to solve some of the military and economic difficulties of the present situation.
This situation is that, for better or worse, we and the French are becoming what we might call associate members of the nuclear club. There is undoubtedly a fresh situation, and I do not deny that in this situation it may be difficult to resist the demands for a deterrent in addition to the American deterrent. It therefore seems to me that, given the present situation, there is something to be said for having nuclear weapons of various sizes under N.A.T.O. control, as argued so well by Mr. Buchan. If that were done, to my mind these weapons should certainly be in separate units under the direct control of the Supreme Commander.
I know that there are at least two very serious difficulties, and probably many more, in this suggestion. The first question which arises is this: would such a deterrent as this be credible? We all accept that to be a deterrent, it must be believed in by the enemy. General Gallois has suggested that only weapons

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held by nations are credible, but I do not think that the credibility of the deterrent depends on the certainty of its being used. It depends on the possibility of is being used. I believe that there would be a possibility of a N.A.T.O. deterrent being used, and that that is enough. I do not think that the Russians could ignore it. Furthermore, the power of the N.A.T.O. deterrent would be very much greater than many smaller deterrents held by different countries.
A second great difficulty about my suggestion is political. Who would exercise control and how would they do it? I do not deny that this is an extremely formidable difficulty. But the question of the political control of nuclear weapons arises in any event, because I do not think that anyone doubts that if any country begins using nuclear weapons in a major war, it will probably lead us step by step until we are all involved in full-scale nuclear war. If any country starts on the nuclear path to war, therefore, it may well be condemning all its fellows to destruction—the political decisions involved in embarking on this course are very difficult to envisage.
The N.A.T.O. weapons, in the near future, would have to be American weapons but the existence of a deterrent over which European countries had some control might satisfy their ambitions. Together with the growing realisation of the tremendous cost which each country will face to do anything significant in the nuclear arms race it might persuade the French, and other countries who may be thinking of following our footsteps, from such policies. It would be valuable if we could give some lead in that direction.
Further, if we have a N.A.T.O. deterrent there will surely be more elbow room. We should have the possibility, which the Minister mentioned, of mobility on sea, land, canals or railway systems, and we should get some of the depth which is obviously essential. It would certainly lead to a more united N.A.T.O., although it would mean individual members of N.A.T.O. giving up more sovereignty than they have showed themselves so far willing to give up.
I do not believe that it is essential to have a N.A.T.O deterrent, but I ask
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the Government to consider whether this suggestion is not at least a possible answer to the present difficulties. I think that we must find an alternative to the 1957 policy. There may be other ways of stopping the proliferation of these nuclear weapons. If there are, by all means, let the Government propose them. What is clear, at any rate, is that an adequate defence policy needs more room and more money than any single nation can provide.
British policy, for better or for worse, has attracted in this country a very wide spectrum of dissent. Distinguished soldiers and sailors and airmen are on record against it, as are the Observer, the Guardian the Economist and, as far as one can see, The Times and the Financial Times. I entirely agree that this is the most difficult Ministry which the Minister has the honour to serve, and his decisions must often be little more than guesses, but I most earnestly ask him to reconsider this policy of holding separate nuclear weapons up to the size of the ultimate deterrent.
It may well be argued that this is not the moment to arm N.A.T.O. just as we are approaching the Summit and just as there are to be talks about disarmament. I fully appreciate that and accept it, but nevertheless, if this is the best, or rather the second-best policy, it should be considered by this country rather than have a great host of nuclear weapons in the hands of different countries.
I believe that the Government must make inter-dependence, which is their own policy, effective in nuclear defence, and I hope that that is one of the objectives within the review which the Minister says he is having carried out and which will determine our future defence plans.
9.1 p.m.
Mr. Geoffrey de Freitas: The hon. Member for Worthing (Sir O. Prior-Palmer) said something at the beginning of his speech, when he lost his temper, which I must correct. He accused the Labour Party of having been a pacifist party. Never in the history of this party has it had a pacifist policy. We have always had in our ranks pacifists whose views we respect and whom

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we like very much, even those of us who are non-pacifists; but we have never been a pacifist party.
Sir O. Prior-Palmer: How can the hon. Gentleman explain the East Fulham by-election, just before the war, which was entirely fought on pacifist principles?
Mr. de Freitas: If the hon. Member thinks that, he must have been very much out of touch with politics at that time. I remember the period, although I was not active in politics in those days. It was fought on the whole principle of collective security, which is completely contrary to pacificism. But that is the past and we have to look at the future.
The hon. Member the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) quite rightly pointed out that one of the dilemmas which faces us in this country is whether we should conduct ourselves as a great military Power, masters of our own destiny, or whether we must depend for everything on our alliances. The theme which my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) stressed, when he opened the debate from this side, was this lack of decision, not so much the wrong decisions, though those can be criticised, but the lack of decision in the Government. It arises whether we look at it politically, whether to "go it alone" or be part of an alliance, or whether it is in answering technical questions. Here is lack of decision as to what we should use to carry the ultimate deterrent after the mid-'sixties.
Taking the first lack of decision, we have lip-service about the alliance, about interdependence, but there is Suez and the 1957 White Paper. In all these incidents the Government behaved as if we were masters of our own destiny. What results flow from the problem which the Government have created themselves? Our old wartime allies, such as the Netherlands and Belgium, were seriously frightened when the 1957 White Paper came out and they found there a great change in our attitude to defence on the Continent.
Now we have our new ally, Germany, encouraged to "go it alone", in Spain. We do not know what the story which eventually comes out will prove, but it already proves one thing. In this, I agree with the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland. It proves that the Government have a very great deal to do in
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N.A.T.O. to tighten up political control. It must be recognised that we are in an alliance and we must all play our part in that alliance.
The second lack of decision which my right hon. Friend mentioned is in deciding what should be used to carry the ultimate deterrent. There is a formidable deterrent today. I did not agree with the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland when he talked about maintaining our little nuclear deterrent. Two hundred V-bombers with hydrogen bombs is an enormous force, and not many people would question that. The problem is how can we accept a policy which involves having an ultimate deterrent which every year for technical reasons becomes less and less credible.
It is not a new problem. For several years we have known that the replacement of the V-bomber—that is, the stage beyond the V-bomber and the stand-off bomb—would be either a fixed missile or a missile fired from a mobile base, whether it is on land or sea or in the air. Eventually, the Government decided on a fixed missile with liquid fuel. Many people did not like that. The Labour Party did not like it, and we said so. However, there was at least a decision.
Today, we are once more suffering from more indecision and more expense. We are told now that there are three candidates for the rôle of preventing the ultimate deterrent from becoming less credible. No wonder the Economist wrote of the Minister of Defence that he must be
"taking a long hard look at the predicament which the Minister of Aviation left with him."
There is no evidence that he is doing much to solve it.
The right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) asked why we in the Labour Party were complaining about the bill. He said that we had asked for a V-bomber force, we had asked for conventional forces, we had asked for mobility, that we had got all those, and, naturally, we had to pay the bill. Our case is that we have the bill, but not the forces we asked for. It is true that we have the V-bombers, but not the other two I mentioned.
Mobility has been stressed by a number of hon. Members. There are questions to be answered. First, is it necessary or wise to rely so much on

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overseas bases of the traditional kind? Secondly, the question arises whether there should be another Commando carrier. Thirdly, is there enough thinking on tactical mobility?
The first question I pose on mobility is whether it is necessary or wise to rely so much on overseas bases of the traditional kind. Are the Government still at the back of their mind thinking in Victorian terms of bases, imperial cantonments up and down the world? Is it not refuelling bases that we need? What on earth are we doing building the new base in Kenya which has been mentioned?
Mr. William Yates: And Cyprus.
Mr. de Freitas: Cyprus has been discussed a good deal. The same applies to Cyprus, but I mentioned Kenya particularly. In a few years it will be independent. Is there any likelihood that we will be allowed to use the base there as the Government envisage it today?
I have heard it argued that in Malaya, which became independent, we have bases and that we use them as close allies of the local Government. Why is that? Anyone who has visited that part of the world, or who has worked there or studied there knows that the people are all terrified of the Chinese, and welcome allies. They are frightened of the Chinese—not of Communists, but of 600 million Chinese, no matter what their politics. In Kenya, however, there does not seem to be any particular sign of their being frightened of anyone nearby—and certainly not on that scale. They will feel no need of allies.
I have also heard it argued that, somehow, there must be something the other side of Suez, because Suez has gone. I cannot help recalling that a few years ago I wrote to The Times pointing out that Nairobi was further from Suez than is Westminster. I was surprised to get so many letters from retired, distinguished Service men who were amazed at this elementary discovery. Nairobi is not next door, just south of the Red Sea. It is a very long distance away from Suez.
Surely, the argument is that we should concentrate on refuelling bases, and
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save money and good will by not having these cantonments. With the money saved, we could decide whether we should have another Commando carrier, and then look again at the provision of helicopters and vertical take-off aircraft for the Army. The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. M. Hamilton), in a maiden speech, talked of this from first-hand knowledge.
There is a grave problem here, because there has not been enough thinking on the Army's tactical mobility. It is often said in the West that Army thinking dominates Soviet military thinking to the point where it is most undesirable because it ignores sea power and air power. Here, I believe, the Russians have a point. They have already scored a great success in stressing tactical mobility by helicopter, and I am sure that if there were another local conflict, another Korea, between East and West, the side that was supplied by Russia would be able to strike over a very wide area, completing ignoring the traditional idea of a line of battle.
The Guardian went so far as to say that helicopters, and the way that the Russians were developing them, were a revolution in tactical mobility, a revolution in warfare at least as great as that caused by atomic weapons, with the important additional point that where one is extremely unlikely to be used, this one, if there is any local war, is certain to be used.
Let me summarise my points in this way. More and more, the Army depends for its effectiveness on the transport provided by the other two Services, but neither of the other two Services spends much time thinking about transport problems. They are concerned with their fighting capabilities, and not with their effectiveness as common carriers. They do not like to think of themselves as an airline or shipping company. They do not see that as their rôle. Therefore, the Army must be encouraged to have more of the implements of aerial mobility, and begin by studying what the Russians are doing.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) and my hon Friend the Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) mentioned civil defence. The White Paper has, I think, three paragraphs on civil defence. We all

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know that Civil Defence depends on volunteers, and volunteers, if they are to feel that they are carrying out a noble task in learning how to relieve suffering among survivors on the perimeter of a devastated area—because that is their chief rôle—must be inspired by some form of leadership at the top. There is absolutely nothing of that in these paragraphs. I shall shortly come to the question whether civil defence is needed or not. If it is not needed, let us save the money. If it is needed, let us have some leadership.
My hon. Friend the Member for Leek referred to two documents, though I must say that I draw an entirely different moral from them. In the Report to Congress on Civil Defence in Europe, it is said that one recurrent criticism in civil defence circles in this country
"has been that, while the Government continue to deplore the difficulty of attracting volunteers for civil defence work, they are themselves offering no lead."
The Report goes on to say—in case anyone is interested—that Russia has a larger number of people trained in the fundamentals of civil defence than any other country.
My hon. Friend the Member for Leek read extracts from a pamphlet called "Home Defence and the Farmer," and, in the way in which he put them, he attempted to make it look ridiculous. The much more important point is that we are predominantly an industrial country. The Society of Industrial Civil Defence Officers has for years been asking the Home Office for guidance about what should be done in the industrial areas. Again, we have the question whether civil defence is useful there. If it is, they argue, let us do something about it.
What have the Government done? They have produced a pamphlet "Home Defence and the Farmer". That is really no answer to the problems facing an industrial community. No wonder that the respectable Municipal Journal in its last issue, referred to the "remarkable inconsistency" between the £1 million increase for civil defence and the millions to be spent on the warning device in Yorkshire.
In almost its very first words, the White Paper refers to
"comprehensive disarmament under proper controls".
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Of course, there are theoretical risks that any disarmament treaty would be evaded. But many hon. Members have said, and all must know, that the risks of evasion must be weighed against the risks of allowing the arms race to continue. There is a risk, of course. There is a risk in the spread of nuclear weapons, or whatever it may be, and it is an increasing risk. I want to know from the Minister of Defence what is the possibility now of a disarmament treaty and I want particularly to know whether he is thinking along the lines which have been indicated by the Foreign Secretary.
A few months ago, the Foreign Secretary told us that he believed that control of the means of delivery was a more practical proposition than the abolition of all nuclear weapons. I share that view. I have always felt that the nuclear disarmament movements and the like have got the problem wrong and have started at the wrong end of the stick. What we should aim at is control of the means of carrying the nuclear device. It is surely clear now to all who have studied the problem that the United Nations inspection teams would find less difficulty in controlling the means of delivery—aircraft, submarines, missiles, and so forth—than in seeking out stocks of nuclear weapons.
We must remember that at the last United Nations General Assembly Mr. Khrushchev was really forthcoming about inspection and that he has since repeated that he would accept inspection from a first stage. Let us test Mr. Khrushchev. There are theoretical risks, as I say, that a disarmament treaty would be evaded, but these risks must be weighed against the risk of allowing the arms race to continue. If there is any sign that Mr. Khrushchev has got over his fear of the West, it is no time for us to adopt the traditional fear of Russia. We should remember the Congress of Vienna, where one of the Russian delegation died suddenly in the night. One of Talleyrand's secretaries reported to him that he had heard one of the British delegates when told of this say "Died, did he? I wonder what his motive was?".
N.A.T.O. has, naturally, come in for a great deal of discussion today. I will not repeat all the arguments used—it would be silly to do so—but it is clear

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that we must have an integrated supply system. Whether or not we find that this German trouble was due to a lack of an integrated supply system is not the point. Whatever happens it is not good enough to have an integrated command, integrated training in many spheres, some international co-operation in weapons and then nothing in supply.
In the White Paper there are few signs of international co-operation in weapons, and it is particularly noticeable how few British weapons have been exported to our allies. I was surprised at the reference of the Minister of Defence today to Sweden, because it drew attention to the fact that the only country which is mentioned more than once as having bought any British weapons is Sweden, which is not even an ally of ours.
The Minister started off very well by being frank and drawing attention to what I regard as a failure within N.A.T.O. Incidentally, I believe that some of the failure in this salesmanship may be due to the attitude of the Government in the way in which they present their case. Why make so much fuss about the fact that there are 9,000 valves in the air defence system in H.M.S. "Hermes"? This can be no surprise to anyone who knows enough about defence and who takes the trouble to read the White Papers. It is certainly no surprise to any schoolboy who reads Eagle, or any of the modern publications with which many of us have to keep up to date.
What would have been interesting to learn would have been that we have retired them and got transistors instead, or some other development. This is not news. It is enough to make it seem as if the Ministers were, as one of the right hon. Gentleman's hon. Friends said, sitting round with pencils in their mouths, making notes and putting down something to fill up a White Paper.
Mr. Watkinson: What is news is what I said in my speech, that the end product of the valves in the carrier is the best air system in the world, which the Americans themselves admit and envy very much.
Mr. de Freitas: I accept that that was news, but I beg the right hon. Gentleman to consider the way that it is stated.
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Apart from N.A.T.O., we see that our other alliance, C.E.N.T.O., this mysterious Central Treaty Organisation, is referred to in the same way as N.A.T.O. What is this organisation? We should know something about it. It is difficult to find out anything about it. I had the opportunity and pleasure of visiting the N.A.T.O. base in Izmir, in Turkey. I found that many of the officers there were as puzzled as I was about the Central Treaty Organisation. In Ankara, they were politer, but that may be because an engineering laboratory was set up there by C.E.N.T.O. There are also, I understand, a nuclear science institution in Teheran and an artificial insemination centre in Pakistan. Is it a military, economic, social or political organisation? [Interruption.] It is an animal artificial insemination centre. If it is not strictly military, what is it doing in the military budget? Why should not we be told something about it?
All that I have read about it recently appeared in The Times last week, when it reported that five lieutenant-generals with no staff and no troops had arrived. As The Times puts it:
"This spectacle of five generals brooding … has inevitably aroused ironic comment."
What are they brooding about? How to spend the money? About artificial insemination in Pakistan? Or nuclear science in Teheran?
The theme of this debate, as set by my right hon. Friend, has been to show up the Government's lack of decision. Dither was the point he made, and he quoted the Daily Mail's headline, "Dither in Defence". The Government have not yet decided whether we are still masters of our own destiny, or whether we must depend on the alliance. The Government pay lip-service to the alliance, then suddenly dash off on their own. All this discourages our old allies and encourages our new and very powerful ally to go off on its own.
The second problem that they have not yet resolved is the serious problem of what to use to carry the ultimate deterrent. How can the Government expect the House to accept a policy which involves having an ultimate deterrent which every year, for technical reasons, becomes less and less credible, and which gives us large bills but not the goods?
9.26 p.m.
Lieut.-Commander S. L. C. Maydon: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) accused the Government of lack of decision both politically and technically in matters of defence. I hope as I go along to be able to prove that quite the contrary is the truth, but there is one other point in his speech that I should like to take up before I go back to the beginning of this long debate.
The hon. Member criticised the Government on the policy of overseas bases. He said that for those should be substituted one of refuelling bases. Quite what does he mean by "refuelling bases"? If one has to refuel something there must presumably be a stock of fuel. That has to be kept in rather large containers either underground or above ground. There have to be fire-fighting services, maintenance teams, and, in unruly parts of the world, parties of soldiers to defend the installations.
Not so very many months ago, I well recollect, the Opposition were loud in their clamour for stockpiles of heavy equipment in overseas bases so that the troops could be flown to the spot and the equipment would be there. If we have a stockpile abroad and we have the fuel for the vehicles, what is that other than an overseas base? We all, on both sides of the House, admit that there are inherent risks in this, but short of having a massive Fleet train, which could not only refuel ships but refuel tanks and armoured vehicles at sea, I see no alternative, and I do not think that the last proposition I have just made is at present at all a practical one.
We have had tonight two most interesting maiden speeches, one from my hon. Friend the Member for Welling- borough (Mr. M. Hamilton), who stressed the fact that the British Army on the Rhine should not be a forgotten army and that much of its equipment was either out of date or quite obsolescent. I think we can see from the White Paper—I am sure we shall see from the debate on the Army Estimates which will follow shortly—that although there have been deficiencies in the past—serious deficiencies; let us acknowledge them—they are being put right. But we have to face the fact that all cannot be done at once. In defence one is always
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running to catch up in one respect or another. It is a matter of leapfrogging. One gets right up to date in one form of weapon while other weapons are lagging behind. It is impossible both economically and industrially to be completely up to date all the time.
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chelsea (Captain Litchfield), in his maiden speech, mentioned two aspects of defence which I should like to expand at some length. With regard to ship design, in which he was particularly interested, he touched on a point of which I think we all ought to think very carefully. It becomes more and more apparent as our weapons become more complicated and technical that the time taken to plan them, develop them and produce them gets longer and longer, and with that up go the man-hours and, in consequence, up goes the expense.
I suggest to my right hon. Friend that it might be profitable to set up a small committee of experts consisting of an industrialist of experience, a senior Service officer—it does not matter from which Service he is drawn as long as he has experience and up-to-date ideas—and an experienced time and motion study man.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: What about a trade unionist?
Lieut.-Commander Maydon: We could, of course, include a trade unionist, but I do not think that the sphere of the committee's investigations would be quite suited to a trade unionist. Using present examples of defence equipment, their development, their production and their introduction into Service use, this small committee might ascertain whether we could not somehow cut down the immense length of time that it takes to design and build a ship, aircraft or tank or even some of the lesser forms of equipment which, although they do not take so long, seem to all of us to take far too long to produce.
If three minds—I suggest that it should be only a small committee—with experience of these spheres and, perhaps with the exception of the man from one of the Services, uninhibited could look into the matter, something might emerge from the investigation. I do not think we can expect a great deal, but

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some short-cuts might be found, and short-cuts mean saving of money.
The second point mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chelsea was Service pensions. There are two aspects to which I should like to draw the attention of the House. First, I take the case of widows of other ranks. Before the introduction, in 1953, of the Forces Family Pensions Scheme, widows of other ranks were not eligible for pension. Last year that 1953 Scheme was greatly improved, but there are still many widows who derive no benefits whatsoever. These are the widows of men who left the Services before 1st September, 1950, which is the qualifying date for the 1953 Scheme, or widows of those whose service after its introduction was insufficient to qualify them.
Most of these are the widows of men below the rank of warrant officer, class I, or its equivalent in the other two Services, and a few are widows of such warrant officers who had the insufficient qualifying service. There is really an urgent need to reconsider the position of these widows, many of whom are in some hardship. Further than that, the original provisions of the 1953 Scheme are not really sufficient for many of the men themselves who are comprised in it. Take, for example, the case of a man leaving the Service between 1st September, 1950, and 3rd November, 1958. The widow's pension of a corporal or a private in this category, after 32 years of service, amounts to no more than 10s. a week—and there are many other similar, glaring cases. These are the pensions which the Grigg Committee described as derisory.
I feel that if the Grigg Committee indicted the Government, and this House accepted that the treatment of these widows was derisory, then, irrespective of the date on which their husbands died, they should come in for better treatment by the country which their husbands served. We must accept that, and I think we are constrained to put it right. We on this side were always critical of Members opposite for the way in which they drew the line between retirement pensioners above and below the age of 70 in 1951. We in our turn have been equally guilty of undesirable practice—I put it no worse than that—
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in differentiating between widows whose husbands died before November, 1958, and those who died afterwards.
At the start of this debate I overheard a remark from the benches opposite, an intervention when my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence was referring to the "Gambia" being sent to Mauritius. Somebody—I did not see who it was—said "There is no need to send a warship for that." That only reveals the ignorance of whoever made the intervention.
Can one for a moment imagine an accident on a main railway line in Britain with a number of people killed and injured in a collision between two trains? What does the British Transport Commission do? Does it send the nearest passenger train to render aid, or does it make up a proper rescue train with heavy lifting equipment and so forth? I think that that analogy makes the case obvious to whomever made that remark.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: I plead guilty to the interruption. I gathered that the point about Mauritius was that supplies were needed. I suggest that a big cargo ship would be just as suitable for that purpose as a ship with guns and helicopters.
Lieut.-Commander Maydon: At a very early age I was serving in one of His Majesty's ships, as it was in those days, which rendered assistance to those stricken by an earthquake in Greece. We had to do all sorts of things, like baking immense quantities of bread, providing heavy lifting and shoring equipment. Unless it was a ship of a very specialised nature, an ordinary merchant ship which happened to be passing that way just could not provide such facilities.
My right hon. Friend mentioned the success of the commando carrier "Bulwark" and hoped that in future she would be accompanied by a landing ship dock to provide the necessary facilities for landing craft. I hope that that example will be followed and more commando carriers with the necessary support will be provided elsewhere.
I was glad to hear my right hon. Friend mention the appointment of Sir Frederick Hooper as honorary adviser on publicity to the Forces. All of us recognise the great service which Sir Frederick gave when he was in charge

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of arrangements for resettlement for officers prematurely retired from the Forces.
The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) made it as one of his major criticisms that none of the new arms which are promised ever seems to be here. I think that we all sometimes feel that, especially men in the Services. However, the Opposition Amendment has taken account of a large sum of money spent over nine years. To be honest, many new weapons have come during that time and many of them have been very useful. I think that we can accept the criticism that many of them come too late. That is bound to be in view of what I was just saying about research, development and production, which seem to take far too long in these highly technical days.
A great deal of steam has escaped from the Opposition's boiler. There are those on the Front Bench opposite who have opened wide the stop valves hoping quickly to achieve full speed. Meanwhile, those behind were not only closing down the stop valves but opening up the blow-down valves at the bottom of the boiler and drawing the fires at the same time. The result is that the ship has come to a standstill.
We are accused of vacillations and confusion. To vacillate implies changing one's mind. It is always a good thing to change one's mind when one can see something better looming ahead, and that is precisely what the Government have been trying to do over defence matters. There is more confusion on the benches opposite than on the Government side. There has been talk about a nuclear disarmament club. Nobody knows quite what it means, and nobody wants it. Ask the French. Ask the Chinese. Ask any other country which is likely to be an aspirant to nuclear inventions. Do they want to join such a club? We had a negative answer from the French not long ago.
We have heard theories on disengagement. Disengagement sounds very nice on paper. A gentleman who has made a great study of this has recently written a book on disengagement.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Eden.
Lieut.-Commander Maydon: At the end of his book there is an appendix
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covering about thirty pages. I got tired of counting the different disengagement schemes which have been put forward at various times during the last ten years. Disengagement would be splendid in a perfect situation where one had a true will to disarm, and a true acceptance of the safeguards of disarmament, but, without those, disengagement is a highly dangerous suggestion.
The Opposition always seem to fall back on the 1957 White Paper for their criticisms. They were a little mixed up tonight. They were uncertain of the contents of paragraph 12 which deals with the nuclear deterrent. In the early stages of debate that paragraph was misquoted by many hon. Gentlemen. I should like to clear their minds by quoting paragraph 12.
Mr. de Freitas: Which year is that?
Lieut.-Commander Maydon: April, 1957, Cmnd. 124.
Mr. de Freitas: Try 1958.
Lieut.-Commander Maydon: The 1957 White Paper was referred to. Paragraph 12 says:
"It must be frankly recognised that there is at present no means of providing adequate protection for the people of this country against the consequences of attack with nuclear weapons. Though, in the event of war, the fighter aircraft of the Royal Air Force would unquestionably be able to take a heavy toll of enemy bombers, a proportion would inevitably get through. Even if it were only a dozen, they could with megaton bombs inflict widspread devastation."
That is true today, except that the emphasis on the fighter is going down and the emphasis on other weapons is increasing. Nobody can dispute that today.
An earlier paragraph of the 1957 White Paper defines our responsibilities and it is, after all, this White Paper which started this five-year policy of defence. Our two major responsibilities are, first with our allies to deter and to resist, and, secondly, to take part in limited operations in defence of our own Dependencies. I do not think that the passage of years has altered those two basic principles one bit.
Then we come to the paragraph on collective defence. Again I paraphrase, for brevity. It says that no country can stand alone, and that we must rely on

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collective defence. On the subject of interdependence, it has this to say, at the beginning of paragraph 11:
"The trend is towards the creation of integrated allied forces. Therefore, provided each member nation plays its fair part in the joint effort, it is not necessarily desirable that each should seek to contribute national forces which are by themselves self sufficient …"
There has been no alteration in that. I have already quoted the passage about the nuclear deterrent. The White Paper goes on to detail the manner in which, in order to be effective and credible as a deterrent, the deterrent must be protected. I can see no sign that there has been vacillation or confusion since the date that White Paper was written. Our basic aims are still precisely the same. The methods of achieving them, as we well know, have altered. They are bound to change, because scientific development is so rapid in these times.
Many people seem completely to have missed the point of the deterrent. It is not to prepare weapons for war, but to create such a retaliatory force that war would be suicide to any aggressor. There is a blessed timeliness in the advent of these appalling weapons. I should like to tell the House why I think that. Modern total war was becoming beastly and indiscriminate—few nations succeeded in remaining neutral, and there were no non-combatants among those who were not neutral—but the advent of nuclear weapons has broken down the differential of the big battalions. Beyond a certain threshold—and it is difficult to determine precisely where that threshold should lie—sheer weight of numbers no longer predominates. This is an example of David, armed with his sling, being able to deter Goliath with all his arms.
Mr. Walter Monslow: Is the hon. and gallant Member indicating that we should use nuclear weapons first, against overwhelming conventional attack?
Lieut.-Commander Maydon: I do not think that the hon. Member has done me the justice of listening to my speech. I never said anything of the sort. I said that the advent of these weapons had narrowed down the differentials. Previously it was true to say that the man who could mobilise large armies, air
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forces and navies quickly was preponderant. His will prevailed. Today, however, quite a small nation, with the will to resist and, if necessary, to retaliate, can prevent an aggressor riding roughshod over his territory and that of his allies.
Mr. G. Brown: I may have misled the hon. and gallant Member. I have an idea that I referred to "paragraph 12 of the 1957 White Paper." It is paragraph 12 of the 1958 White Paper with which we are concerned, and if I misled the hon. and gallant Member I apologise. We will see in tomorrow's OFFICIAL REPORT whether I was guilty of that. But my hon. Friend's point is valid, because the famous paragraph 12 to which we refer says:
"But it must be well understood that, if Russia were to launch a major attack on them, even with conventional forces only, they would have to hit back with strategic nuclear weapons. In fact, the strategy of N.A.T.O. is based on the frank recognition that a full-scale Soviet attack could not be repelled without resort to a massive nuclear bombardment of the sources of power in Russia."
Does the hon. and gallant Member believe that that is the philosophy of the Minister today?
Mr. Monslow: May I explain the position?
Lieut.-Commander Maydon: I have given way to the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown). I should like to answer one hon. Member at a time.
I can see what the right hon. Gentleman means but that still does not make his point. In that paragraph, with which I also am well acquainted, the governing words are "major" and "large-scale". I do not think we can get away from that.
Both the major political parties have appreciated the force of the arguments I was making before I was interrupted. A few years ago the Labour Government, courageously and quite contrary to the pacifist tradition of a large section of it, decided to embark on an atomic bomb programme. The Conservative Party followed this logical process from the atom bomb to the hydrogen bomb. The official Opposition Amendment today accuses Her Majesty's Government of confusion. It ill becomes hon. Members opposite to do that when they themselves are so confused in this matter.

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One part of this argument where there is considerable room for difference of opinion is that relating to the balance between conventional arms and the nuclear deterrent. To reach the nuclear threshold about which I was speaking just now requires an immense expenditure of money and manpower. We know how difficult it was to acquire stocks of plutonium. The warhead mechanism, the vehicle to carry the warhead, launching sites, whether based on land, air, or sea, take much time, much money and many resources. Today we have reached that stage. Now we can afford to go more slowly in that direction and to put much more emphasis, which I agree is necessary, on the conventional side.
Conventional arms are based on manpower. It is right that the men in our Armed Forces and their supporting ancillary, highly-specialised troops should be well paid. It is small wonder, therefore, if these men are to be not
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only well paid but to have their rates of pay and pensions kept in step with their fellows in other occupations, that it all mounts up to a very large sum of money. Then, of course, there are the things which go with it, the morale-building things which were mentioned earlier—good housing, good living accommodation, good food and good clothing, with the expensive equipment that I have just mentioned.
If we are to have happy and contented forces and therefore efficient forces, we are obliged to look to these matters and to provide the money which is needed. I have, therefore, no hesitation in supporting the Motion. We know full well that there are still many inadequacies in our defence services. But let us look to them and make them good in the same spirit as that in which deficiencies have been made good in the past.
Debate adjourned.—[Mr. Bryan.]
Debate to be resumed Tomorrow.

TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING (CONTROL OF ADVERTISEMENTS)
10.0 p.m.
Dr. Barnett Stross: I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Amendment Regulations, 1960 (S.I., 1960, No. 66), dated 20th January, 1960, a copy of which was laid before this House on 26th January, be annulled.
I note that the Minister of Housing and Local Government has himself come to the House to answer the debate on this Prayer. We take this, first, as a compliment to the House itself, and we are grateful to him, and, secondly, as evidence of the importance he attaches to this subject, as we do ourselves. The background of the history of these Regulations stems from Section 31 of the 1947 Act. There there are only two criteria to be considered, one being amenity and the other, public safety. I shall quote only one paragraph from Section 31 of the parent Act. It is paragraph (a) of subsection (1), which declares that the Regulations may provide
"for regulating the dimensions, appearance and position of the advertisements which may be displayed, the sites on which such advertisements may be displayed, and the manner in which they are to be affixed to land."
It is common knowledge that the first Regulations were laid in 1948. There is not much doubt that a good start was made in that year with those Regulations. Since then, in 1949 and in 1951, we have had amending Regulations which made only small administrative changes and today we have the present Regulations, against which we are praying.
The first request I have to make to the Minister—and I have not very much doubt that he will agree with this—is, please may we have the Regulations consolidated as soon as possible? The reasons are obvious. The number of Regulations in the hands of local authorities are confusing to them. It is a nuisance to have to refer backwards and forwards. Therefore, I ask that we shall have consolidation as soon as possible. I wish to refer to what I consider to be the weakness of the Regulations as a
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fragment of machinery. The original ones and the present ones together make no real attempt to protect the urban scene in the way they protect rural areas and areas of special control except, I admit, in Regulation 4, which makes reference to Regulation 10 of the 1948 series. I understand that the Minister is hoping that by some relaxation of controls in special control areas he will be able to persuade local authorities to extend their application to most of the countryside, or certainly to other areas in the countryside and more places which are worthy of special protection. That relaxation is noted in Regulation 5 of the present Regulations.
The difficulty seems to lie in two things. There is the uneven approach to the general problem of amenity by different local authorities. I shall deal with that in a little more detail later. Secondly, the difficulty lies in the fact that the Minister intends to rely on a voluntary code by the advertisers in order to solve the problem of "clutter" in our towns and advertisements on business premises. About a year ago, the Minister announced that there would be a voluntary code and, on 26th January, he answered the hon. Member for the City of Chester (Mr. Temple) as follows:
"My policy is to secure that outdoor advertisements are displayed in the right way and in the right places and not otherwise, and also that the machinery of planning control is as simple as possible. I have today laid amending regulations designed to further both these aims. I shall be sending to local planning authorities a circular explaining the new regulations.
As to advertisements on business premises and the problem of clutter, I invited representative bodies to discuss among themselves whether they could work out a voluntary code of standards. Such a code has now been compiled by a number of advertising organisations. I have seen it and have been glad to contribute a foreword to it. I understand that the code will be ready for publication in six or seven weeks' time. I am sure that it is a step in the right direction and should be given a trial."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th January, 1960; Vol. 616, c. 7.]
As the Minister has gone as far as this, I agree with him personally that we must now give it a trial. We ask him to say tonight, however, that if, after proper trial, the results are not satisfactory, he will introduce Regulations to control clutter and advertisements on business premises. We are to have a voluntary code. Let us try

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it. I do not know how long we should wait before making up our minds whether it is satisfactory. Perhaps the Minister could help us when he answers the debate. Does he think eighteen months would be enough or would he need two years? I would not hazard a guess.
The variation between local authorities in handling the problem is very striking. The powers of challenge are fully used by a few local authorities, in particular Northumberland and Worcester.
In Regulation 9 before us there are some minor administrative changes with reference to consent. I think that the Minister is asking that local authorities, by and large, should give five years when they give consent. In Regulation 8 he again deals with the principle of challenge, simplifies it and makes it easier. This, again, is a step in the right direction, but I must put to the Minister what is an undoubted fact—that many local authorities take little or no advantage of the Regulations and have taken little advantage of them in the past twelve years. They do not challenge unsightly and ugly advertisements, for they are unwilling to spend staff time on action of this sort and unwilling to incur what they feel is odium if they take action or to pay the compensation incurred by modification or revocation of an order.
I therefore ask the Minister to promise two things. First, if he has not the information, will he find out exactly what is happening throughout the country, collate it and classify it so that he knows how local authorities have used their powers up to date? Secondly, if he is satisfied that many, or some, of them are not using their powers, will he give them some encouragement to do so? This could be done by further circularisation, or it may be necessary for stronger action to be taken. After all, this is a simple request that he should find out, if he does not already know, what is happening throughout the country and see whether he can offer us a remedy.
To summarise what I have said so far, the direction in which we are moving in this matter is the correct direction but the pace is too slow. In the past twelve years there has not been much
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evidence of dynamic action. I recognise that the Minister and his predecessors have taken a deep and personal interest in the matter but I must say that as yet there is no evidence of results. I believe that the voluntary code may help—we hope that it will—but if it does not help quickly and efficiently we should not wait long before taking legislative action.
I put a very serious point to the Minister. What does he propose to do about the score of authorities, all of whom are enabled to clutter up our towns and cities with street furniture and over whom at present he has no control? The types of authorities I mean are the Ministry of Transport, the Post Office, water undertakings and so on. I gather that there are about forty-three special types of street furniture for which they are responsible—special groups of street furniture—and that they tend to compete one with another in ugliness.
If we are to move against commercial interests, surely it might be just as easy, if not easier, to give encouragement to the statutory bodies and ask them to put their house in order. As to how it should be done, we must leave that to the Minister. We have ideas, and nothing would please us more than to offer them if they are required. To deal with that now would take too much time, and I do not propose to deal with it tonight.
One thing at least might be done at once. Why not give local authorities the power to challenge those authorities which up to date can do whatever they like and which very often supply street furniture which ranks for grant and which competes only in the tawdry and the ugly?
By and large, local authorities do not dislike advertisements if they are of the right type and are in the right places. That is my considered personal view. They welcome very often the colour and the gaiety and they certainly welcome the revenue. This, I think, we should bear in mind. I am now using words used by the Minister himself in the Answer which he gave to the hon. Member for the City of Chester:
"My policy is to secure that outdoor advertisements are displayed in the right way and in the right places …"

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This practice of advertising is very ancient. The earliest example which I can find is a three-thousand-year-old Theban papyrus in the Bodleian Library offering a reward for the capture of a runaway slave. Shortly after that, and certainly throughout Rome and Italy, murals were used for advertising, and advertising of that type was a method by which one could give information to the illiterate. It was a very interesting method.
The manufacture of printing gave a new lease of life and encouragement to advertising on hoardings. We have in our possession in this country a poster by Caxton, modest in size, only seven inches by five inches, dating back to 1480. I think that it advertised the sale of a book. Sometimes it is thought that advertisements on hoardings followed the creation of the railways. By and large that is true—the railways; the turnpike roads—but there are these honourable and ancient precedents which I have mentioned. Press advertising, which does not come within the scope of the legislation, is quite modern, about 1580 in France and most interesting ones in 1666, the year of the great fire. I mention them only because in part they made use of hoardings as well as the Gazette. I was fascinated to note that by 1666 the London Gazette determined that it would have a supplement and no longer allow any advertisements in its pages, the ground being that:
"They were not properly the business of a paper of intelligence."
At that time, certainly to Shakespeare and the translators of the Authorised Version of the Bible, "advertisement" meant "information". Shortly after that it began to mean "business announcement." It is most interesting to see how it has been used as time has passed. Some of these quotations are very interesting. For example, in 1710, in an article in the Tatler it was made apparent that it was thought that they were of
"Great use to the vulgar"
and they had three purposes. The Minister will be interested in the three purposes for which they were used. The first was as
"An instrument of ambition whereby a man not big enough for the Gazette may easily creep into the advertisements."
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The second reason given was that they are of use in the management of controversy. That should appeal to us in the House. The example given is:
"The inventors of strops for razors have written against one another in this way for many years".
That is typical of many modern methods of advertising. I need only mention things like detergents. The third reason is that they inform the world where they may be furnished with almost everything that is necessary for life:
"If a Man has Pains in his head, Cholic in his Bowels"—
these are the exact words—
"or spots in his Cloathes, he may here meet with proper Cures and Remedies. If a Man would recover a Wife or a Horse that is stolen or strayed"—
my researches lead me to believe that in those days more wives strayed or were stolen than was the case with horses, strangely enough—
"if he wants new Sermons, Electuaries, Asses' milk or anything else, either for his Body or his Mind, this is the place to look for them in".
I realise that the Regulations make it quite clear that local authorities are not to have power to control the content of an advertisement. They may control the shape, the size, perhaps the position and the way it is fixed to land, but not the content. It is fascinating to see that as early as 1780 even Dr. Johnson—no speech in the House of Commons is suitable unless he is referred to—was complaining bitterly of their habit of exaggeration. He said:
"Their promises were magnificent promises—Large promise is the soul of an advertisement."
We in the House all recognise how and why advertising can be helpful in the distribution of goods and in creating a mass demand, but we cannot accept that the price should include either loss of safety or, above all, the desecration of our countryside and the spoiling of our towns and cities.
10.19 p.m.
Mr. Elwyn Jones: I am sure that the House will be grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) for yet another outstanding example of his zeal for raising civic taste and for improving and extending public amenities. I do not know whether my hon. Friend

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the Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) will go the whole way with him in due course in his panegyric of the gentle art of advertising.
Dr. Stross: Not gentle.
Mr. Elwyn Jones: My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central does not concede that the art is always gentle. It is because it is sometimes garish and brutal in its impact upon the public and in the public eye, and sometimes offensive to the public taste, that for many years now Governments have thought it expedient in the public interest to have control of advertisements.
I share my hon. Friend's hope that we shall quickly have consolidation of these advertisement Regulations. Those of us who have to deal with these matters from the purely legal point of view are already a little overwhelmed by the complexity of town planning legislation. The present proposed Amendments are, so to speak, a fourth edition—the original Regulations of 1948 have already been twice amended—and I was very glad to see in the Ministry's circular of 27th January last that the Minister hopes that it may be possible in the near future to consolidate the Regulations. I assure him that he will receive the support of this side of the House when he embarks upon that operation, which I will not pretend will be lacking in difficulty and complexity.
My present purpose is to ask the Minister to clarify one or two points under the amended Regulations which may become of increasing importance in view of proposals that are being made energetically in certain quarters to place, in particular, illuminated advertisements on vast advertisement panels which are to contain, in turn, several advertisements. Regulation 8 of the Amendment Regulations that we are now considering amends Regulation 17 to enable consent to be given for the display of any particular advertisement or advertisements with or without illumination. The consents to be given are for a period of five years or less.
A question of some difficulty is this. If consent is given by the local planning authority for the display of advertisements on one of these huge panels, does each advertisement on the proposed panel have to be approved? Does each
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advertisement have to be subjected to the tests of amenity and of public safety? Of will it suffice if consent is obtained for the use of the panel as a whole for the purposes of advertisement?
I hope—indeed, I anticipate—that the Minister will say that consent will be required for each advertisement on the panel, and that it will not be sufficient for consent to be given for the use of the panel as a whole—although I readily concede that in considering this matter it will be proper to bear in mind the effect of the panel as a whole when thinking in terms of amenity.
There is another difficult question. As we know, these vast illuminated advertisements, full of brilliant ingenuity and complexity, need elaborate mechanisms and supports. It is, therefore, not likely that they will be changed very frequently. Nevertheless, they are likely to be changed within the currency of the five-year consent period. What some local authorities want to know is: will consent by required for an advertisement that is put up in substitution for the original advertisement in respect of which consent was given, or will the initial consent cover the user of the appropriate space for advertisement purposes for the whole of the five-year period? I think that in fact and in law consent will be required for every replacement, but it is a matter which has given rise to some difficulty, and I think it would be helpful if the Minister were to indicate his view on the matter at this stage.
The amending Regulations do not amend the provision that the powers conferred by the Regulations shall be exercisable only in the interests of amenity and public safety. Those are the only factors which may properly be considered by local planning authorities when they are exercising these powers of control. I should like the Minister to clarify whether my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central is right in contending that it is proper for the local authority, in considering the amenity aspect of the matter and, in particular, in considering illuminated advertisements, to consider, for instance, the size of the advertisement or the size of the panel, the range from which it is visible, or, for instance, its height above the ground.

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Again, I think that my hon. Friend is right in saying that a local planning authority may properly consider these factors, but there is a little doubt about the matter in the minds of those who have to apply the Regulations, and the Minister could render useful service by putting the matter beyond a peradventure.
We are about to enter not only the space age but, for better or for worse, the illuminated space age. Hideous though that prospect may be, I trust that the Minister will feel able to throw light upon one or two of these minor problems which are not without their importance and, as I have ventured to indicate, not without their difficulties.
10.27 p.m.
Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: I support my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for West Ham, South (Mr. Elwyn Jones) in praying that these Regulations be annulled, on the ground that they do not go nearly far enough. In common, I believe, with a large section of public opinion, I should like to see outdoor advertising, with very few exceptions, abolished altogether. I agree unreservedly with bodies such as the Council for the Preservation of Rural England which believe that, with the exception of indispensable public notices and signs on business premises, all outdoor advertising is a vulgar and impertinent intrusion upon the individual citizen and that it is inherently objectionable for several reasons, four of which I wish now to give.
Outdoor advertising by garish posters, whether illuminated or not, is always incongruous and, therefore, injurious to the surroundings in which the posters are placed. They exploit the public highway and people have no chance not to notice them, whether they want to or not. Outdoor advertising vulgarises the public environment and thereby degrades public taste; and, on other grounds, when they are displayed near main roads, they are generally a danger because they distract the attention of road users.
I say quite frankly—in this I go, perhaps, further than my hon. Friends—that I should like to see all advertising
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cleared out of the countryside. I am happy to note that one good side effect of commercial television, which I deplore, is that it has taken a great deal of money away from the poster advertising business, which has been declining in recent years. I very much hope that during my political lifetime I shall see its final death.
I should not be content only with seeing the poster industry and the illuminated sign industry dying in the countryside. I hope we can clear it out of our towns as well. I find it difficult to agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central, that there is any place outdoors which is suitable for advertising however carefully it may be devised by a local authority, a new town corporation or other public body. I also fear that one cannot separate advertising in the countryside from advertising in the towns, partly because, if the Minister or one of his successors, as I hope one day they will, were to put the squeeze effectively on the outdoor poster advertising interests in the country, what was left of them would be driven into the towns and the pressure would be increased both on urban poster sites and on business premises which even now are to a considerable extent becoming glorified advertising hoardings. I should like to say a word about that in a moment.
I also take the view that wherever outdoor advertising is to be found it tends to degrade or vulgarise public taste, and undoubtedly it has an effect on the behaviour of town dwellers which is a menace to the countryside when they leave the cities to get a little enjoyment of rural amenities. Therefore, I take an unrepentant and out-and-out position on outdoor advertising. As I have said, I hope it will disappear altogether within my political lifetime.
I do not believe that it is only a small minority of people who take this view. The Minister has been closely in touch in the past with the Council for the Preservation of Rural England and bodies like the National Trust and very many other local groups of citizens who feel as strongly as I do. I recall that when the 1947 Act was introduced during the time of the Labour Government, and the 1948 Regulations followed, some people, particularly the advertising interests, alleged that only a

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small minority was interested in this subject. But is became clear that there was, and had been for a long time, a persistent demand by both local authorities and voluntary associations for better legislation to protect the amenities of the countryside against the efforts of the poster industry.
The 1947 Act, indeed, represented a triumph over the vested interests of the advertisers which during a period of some 100 years had killed or rendered ineffective more than 400 Parliamentary Bills introduced into the House by local authorities or others seeking to control outdoor advertising. My hon. Friends and I warmly welcomed the 1947 Act and look back with pride on the 1948 Regulations, even though we are very far behind a number of other civilised countries in Western Europe and in North America on this score.
I do not know whether the Minister has lately been in Sweden, but if he travels about the very beautiful countryside there he will find that outdoor advertising has disappeared altogether and that one can drive along main roads and highways and byways without seeing an outdoor advertisement at all. If he has not done that recently, I am sure that if he would take the opportunity to look at the Swedish countryside he would decide to introduce something very much tougher than the present meagre Regulations.
The Minister's predecessor, now the Minister of Aviation, made a statement on 19th June, 1956, when he first told us that he was proposing to introduce new Regulations. Many of us warmly welcomed part of that statement when the right hon. Gentleman said:
"… I am sure that much more could and should be done to secure the removal of incongruous hoardings and signs. I have particularly in mind the rural areas and country towns, as well as streets of special architectural interest or civic importance …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th June, 1956; Vol. 554, c. 1236.]
He went on to indicate that he was to produce very comprehensive and effective regulations.
It is true that he was promptly taken to task by two of his hon. Friends, one of whom asserted that tasteful advertising brightened various streets, while the other described advertising control as the "utmost nonsense"—I think that I overheard the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr.
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Page), who is always very meticulous in his attendance in the House whenever we touch on any matter connected with advertising, applaud that sentiment which I very much deplore. I hope that I may provoke him into treating us to his opinions on the subject, which we shall look forward to hearing, but not in the middle of my own speech.
After that announcement, the Minister produced a memorandum which was circulated to those interested and which was warmly welcomed by us because it urged strict control not only in the areas of special amenity, but throughout the countryside. It was welcomed because it proposed to tackle advertising on business premises, which had already then become a gross abuse of the provisions of the 1948 Regulations by turning shops and business premises into extra advertisement hoardings, as it is doing today. However, we were disappointed with the memorandum because it gave rise to considerable misgivings when it suggested that there was a case for greater freedom in areas where out-of-door advertising was not out of place. I do not know whether the Minister would be inclined to tell us what was in the Ministerial mind at that time.
At all events, the Minister produced a draft of his proposed Regulations on 22nd August, 1957, and that was circulated to interested parties for their comments. I understand that two further drafts were circulated later. There is no doubt, if one studies the original draft of the 1957 circular originally devised by the then Minister, the present Minister of Aviation, and the Regulations which have now emerged, that the Minister has been forced to make very grave concessions to the advertising interests.
Although not many of us on this side of the House applaud much of the work which the present Minister of Aviation did in his previous office as Minister of Defence, some of us regret his departure from the Ministry which the right hon. Gentleman now heads, because there was no doubt that he took a deep personal interest in all matters connected with amenity and was prepared to stand up to and fight the advertising interests to clear the countryside of some of their excesses. He has demonstrated his continuing interest

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in this matter by the support which he has given to the Civic Trust, whose work we on this side, and some hon. Members opposite who are interested in the subject, warmly applaud. We regret his departure from the Ministry, because it seems to us that he was prepared to take a much stronger line.
Two years and seven months have passed since those draft Regulations were circulated and there has been a series of discussions. What we now have is very much in the nature of the proverbial mouse and we are deeply disappointed with the Regulations which have just been issued.
We are even more disappointed because the Minister has decided to reverse the original decision of his predecessor and to treat the very serious problem of clutter of business premises quite separately, and to leave it to the advertising interests to devise a code.
We are still waiting to see that code, and I hope that the Minister is in a position tonight to give us a definite and final date when it will be published. Although we are heartened by the Minister's statement that if, after being given a trial, this code is not effective he will regulate, we are dubious whether the advertising interests will to any extent cut their own throats and devise an effective code to control their own excesses.
One has only to travel in the countryside along main roads, or along small roads in towns, to see the frightful abuse that advertisers are now making of business premises which have been turned into extra advertisement hoardings.
For the reasons given by my hon. Friends, and for the reasons that I have tried to adduce, we are disappointed with these Regulations. They represent a retreat from what the Minister's predecessor proposed to do in 1957, and we hope that the Minister will say that he proposes to take effective action to deal with clutter, and that such action will be taken in a short space of time if the voluntary code applied by the advertising interests is not effective.
10.41 p.m.
Mr. Graham Page: I must declare an interest in this subject because I am a director of an advertising agency.
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As I understand it, the main intention of my right hon. Friend in issuing these Regulations is to increase the special control areas. One might, therefore, expect opposition from the outdoor advertising industry since a special control area places greater restrictions on the display of outdoor advertisements. I think that I can speak for outdoor advertising interests in saying, however, that they welcome wholeheartedly these Regulations as the Minister has drawn them, especially with regard to special control areas. No good advertiser wants to defile the countryside or to harm or injure areas of historical interest or beauty. The special control areas are designed to protect those districts.
It is important to remember that the initiative for the designation of special control areas comes from the local planning authorities. These local authorities decide whether any area shall be, or shall not be, a special control area. At present I understand that there are about forty special control areas. Almost every one of these areas, the boundaries and the extent of them, has been agreed between the local planning authorities and the outdoor advertising industry.
Industry has co-operated in all respects with local planning authorities in fixing these special control areas, but up to the present time, under the 1948 Regulations, as slightly amended since 1948, there has been such rigidity in the restrictions that follow, that local authorities have been reluctant to use their powers of designation. As long ago as June, 1956, my right hon. Friend's predecessor said that local authorities were being discouraged because the restrictions were so rigid that they hesitated to apply them and thereafter to be obliged to enforce them.
Those Regulations allowed only a specified range of advertisements within the special control areas—a special range of directional signs defined very narrowly in the Regulations. There were to be no forecourt signs, practically no illuminated signs, and no signs over 12 feet above the ground. It was little wonder that local authorities were not prepared to apply these tight restrictions without having any elbow room in which to exercise their discretion.
Under the new Regulations local authorities will have a discretion to allow a limited range of advertisements

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if they are satisfied that such advertisements are reasonably required. I notice that in his circular my right hon. Friend urges local authorities to consider all their areas in order to see whether, with these relaxed Regulations, they can create new special control areas. He is also urging them to review the existing control areas at least every five years.
The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) raised two points about the Regulations. He said, first, that there was an uneven approach by local authorities to the question of outdoor advertising and, secondly, he questioned reliance upon a voluntary code. Surely there should be an uneven approach among local authorities in different areas. They each have their own problems, and it is right that they should be left with a fair amount of discretion as to the positioning, size and structure of the advertisements which they allow in their districts. I do not think any other hon. Member would go quite so far as the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) did in saying that we should do away with all outdoor advertising—a sort of root-and-branch argument. If one wished to argue that out thoroughly with him one would have to go into the whole subject of advertising and the assistance which it gives to production and distribution.
I approach the matter on the basis that one wishes to permit outdoor advertising, but to keep it within limits and—certainly in the special control areas—to give the local authorities a discretion as to what class of advertisement they shall permit. I think that there should be an uneven approach, and on that point I am at issue with the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central.
On the question of reliance upon a voluntary code, I would remind the hon. Member that this was not—as he said—a code devised by advertising concerns. Many other interests were represented at the conferences which produced it. In particular, the retail trade interests, such as the National Chamber of Trade, and local authority interests, were represented. It is true that the Association of Municipal Corporations is not satisfied with the code, but the County Councils Association is happy to give it a trial, and that is what should be done. It is very satisfactory that the interests
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concerned have been able to produce a code with which they are undertaking to comply.
I do not think that I am disclosing any secrets when I say briefly what will be in the code, which I understand will be published some time during this month. It will limit and improve the presentation of advertisements in forecourts: that is the difficult question of clutter, which we have been trying to overcome. There will be limitations on and improvement of display of advertisements on shop premises, a general tidying up of newspaper contents posters and a limitation of the number of projecting signs. These are the sort of things which are dealt with in this voluntary code with which the outdoor advertising industry is undertaking to comply.
If the industry does not obey this code, I should certainly join with the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central in saying that the Minister should enforce it by Regulation. Those good advertisers who have taken part in the conferences which led to the formation of the code have said that all along. So I am happy if the Minister holds that sanction over the industry. Let us try this code and see whether it will be obeyed.
The rest of the Regulations contain some improvements in the procedure, particularly in the challenge procedure which has been simplified to the benefit of those who want to do away with unsightliness and to deal with the problem with the least possible inconvenience and delay. We have a Regulation combining two processes which previously took a long time. The challenge procedure has been concertinaed, if I may use the expression, into the service of one form.
I think it right that the three-year period should be extended to five years because of the increased cost of the construction of elaborate advertisements. That is agreed by local authorities as well as the industry. Not only will these Regulations simplify the procedure in many ways, but they will bring a benefit to the countryside, to areas of historic interest and beauty, because they will encourage local authorities to create special control areas and to apply the Regulations with the discretion which the Regulations will allow.
10.52 p.m.
The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Henry Brooke): My hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) has somewhat simplified my task by explaining certain features of these Regulations on which I need not now dwell. I must confess to the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) that I have not been in Sweden recently, but I suspect that he has not been recently to other countries, such as Italy. If he had, I cannot think that he would be critical of our system of administrative control, but appreciative of it. I cannot accept a great deal of what the hon. Gentleman said about the advertising industry, or about the way in which these Regulations are applied and enforced. From passages in his speech it seems to me that no form of regulations would fully satisfy the hon. Gentleman except regulations to enable him to say exactly what exceptions might be made to his general negative rule.
The voice of the hon. Member for Swindon was the only discordant voice in the debate. Otherwise, it seemed to me that hon. Members on both sides of the House were seeking to probe, in a friendly and constructive way, what the Regulations contained and to put wholly legitimate questions to the Minister about what were his intentions and his approach to the system of advertising control.
Let me say at once that I do not find this an easy responsibility to discharge. For one thing, it is relatively new, and for another, it is hard to say that public opinion crystallises quickly on the general principles which should be applied, however sharp public opinion may be in some particular case or event. Therefore, we all are to an extent feeling our way.
I do not mean by those words for a moment to suggest that the Minister's handling should be tentative, but surely it is right to accept that we all have to learn by our experience in these matters. I quite agree that it is my duty to seek to frame advertising regulations and apply them in a way which will not only carry with it parliamentary approval, but which will be adjudged by the country as a whole and by those sections of it that may be specially interested in this matter from different
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standpoints, as generally reasonable and forward looking.
No doubt as we have more experience we shall do better. We may need to be tighter in some directions and laxer in others. The evidence which has justified these Regulations has borne that out. I do not want to speak dogmatically this evening, but I want to rebut with all the force I can the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Swindon that, whereas my predecessor took a deep personal interest in all matters of amenity, I do not. I do not believe that that view would, in fact, be held against me by many hon. Members on either side of the House.
Since I have been the Minister I have been seeking to tackle three different aspects of advertisement control. I have been anxious to see how we could get the areas of special control extended. The special control system has not been working wholly satisfactorily. It would have been easy to leave things as they were, but we seem to have come to a virtual full-stop in the making of areas of special control. Secondly, I have been concerned about clutter on business premises. I grant at once that I am trying out a new approach. I invited the advertising interests to see whether they could produce a voluntary code of conduct.
I have said throughout, and I say again tonight, that if that effort is not successful, if this code does not achieve its object, I shall certainly not hesitate to produce in due course other means, because in one way or another I am determined to get rid of undesirable clutter as—I say at once—I believe all the wisest and most far-sighted people in the advertising business themselves desire to do.
The kind of clutter we wish to get rid of is not good advertising in itself. It is something which has accumulated. The question is how we can best minimise it and give the good advertising all the better chance to stand out and make its impact on the public. Thirdly, I have been working on the question of simplifying and improving the administrative procedures. That is the other matter with which these amending Regulations deal. Taking these one by one, with special control covering only 20 per cent. of the whole of England and Wales, I could not be satisfied. Experience has

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shown beyond doubt that the main reason for that was that the existing Regulations were too rigid and prevented things being displayed which it would have been perfectly reasonable to have been displayed. It is absurd that, under the existing Regulations, in an area of special control one cannot put up a sign showing the way to the golf club. It is to get rid of that kind of ludicrously rigid control that the amending Regulations have been framed.
Their effect is twofold in areas of special control. They will give local authorities greater discretion to permit necessary signs and announcements of direction, such as that which I mentioned, and they will permit deviations from the very severe limitations applied at present in areas of special control. For example, if there is a strong case for it, it will be practicable for a local authority to give consent to an illuminated sign.
My hope is that the result of the amending Regulations will be to encourage a number of local authorities, which have hitherto hesitated, to come forward and apply special control to their areas. I should like to see the figure of 20 per cent. very substantially increased, and I shall watch what happens with the greatest interest.
My hon. Friend the Member for Crosby told the House that the advertising interests hope to publish the voluntary code next month. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) asked how long I should wait to see what happens. I must reserve my freedom of action and my discretion to take decisions at what seems to me to be the right time, but I should certainly expect to see results from the voluntary code within two years, and I do not hesitate to tell the House and the country that I have great belief that this voluntary code will achieve a more rapid clearing up of a great deal of clutter than could have been done by amended Regulations, and can do it with much more good will.
At the same time, either by this way or, if this way does not prove successful, in some other way, I am determined to tackle this question of clutter. I am most grateful to the advertising interests for the way in which they have taken up this idea of a voluntary code. I
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know that what they have produced is not acceptable to all the local authority associations. Nevertheless, I want to back it and to back the idea of a voluntary code unless and until it is proved that success cannot be achieved in that way. I remind the House that, whatever is in the code, local authorities will retain their right to challenge advertisements and I shall retain my right to consider appeals on their merits and to dismiss them when I think that that is the right course.
Turning to the improvement and simplification of the administrative procedures, it seemed to me that it was more reasonable to make an express consent last for five years than for three years. As my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby said, considerable expense is involved in some of these advertisements. It will to some extent reduce the amount of paper work if an express consent, once given, lasts for five years. I hope that that will be generally acceptable.
The amending Regulations also require the reasons to be stated by the local authority when it is challenging an advertisement, and I think that that is right and is in line with what I might call the Franks spirit. A local planning authority is enabled to serve a single notice for notifying refusal of consent and for requiring discontinuance of the display, which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby said, appears to be a convenient modification of what was hitherto a rather tiresome process.
I intend to watch the working of the Regulations very carefully, as I indicated in my early remarks when I said that this was a relatively new form of responsibility and we all had to feel our way. I should not hesitate to bring in further amending Regulations if these did not prove satisfactory, but I do not intend on that account to delay consolidation indefinitely. Provided that the Regulations are not annulled this evening, I hope that, fortified by the confidence of Parliament, we can proceed with consolidation fairly fast.
The hon. and learned Member for West Ham, South (Mr. Elwyn Jones) asked me two questions. He asked, first, whether such matters as size and height above ground were relevant to amenity. They certainly are. He asked me,

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secondly, whether consent to an illuminated sign, once given, meant that the advertisers could after a period remove the sign and put up another without seeking further consent. I know that the hon. and learned Gentleman has been somewhat concerned lately in another capacity with illuminated signs. I know that the House will appreciate that I must say not one word about that particular scene or site, but I think that I can satisfy the hon. and learned Gentleman on his particular anxiety.
There is no doubt that a local authority has power to limit its grant of consent to a particular illuminated sign. It certainly also will have power to seek for further information if it is not completely satisfied about what is proposed. It has always been my practice in appeal cases—I believe that it has also been the practice of my predecessors—to grant consent only for particular illuminated signs. Indeed, unless the authority dealing with it was fully apprised of the form, design, type and intensity of illumination of a sign, it would be almost impossible to come to a conclusion about it. I hope that my remarks on that point will satisfy the hon. and learned Gentleman.
I was very grateful to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) for the words he used about my replying to the debate myself, and, indeed, for his whole approach. I know that he, like me, is anxious, above all, to try to ensure that the system of control is as satisfying as it can be made to be. The hon. Gentleman expressed the fear that even the amended Regulations would not protect urban areas as they would protect rural areas. There is no denying that the specified class advertisements will be seen more in urban areas than in rural areas, because they apply for the most part to business premises, but it is certainly my hope that the voluntary code will make a considerable improvement in urban areas.
Speaking more generally, local authorities have widespread powers under the Regulations. I remind the hon. Gentleman that an authority has the power to challenge any advertisements displayed with deemed consent. I will come in a moment to his suggestion that the action of local authorities is very uneven. In addition, the Minister can
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direct under Regulation 13 that any specified class provisions should not apply to any particular area or areas. There again, I certainly should not hesitate to use those powers if I felt, after these amending Regulations had been operated for some time, that there was some abuse of them going on.
I know, for instance, that the Council for the Preservation of Rural England is anxious about one particular item. No doubt, the hon. Gentleman is familiar with that. I think that we have the Regulations right there, but there is this residuary power in my hands to take action as I have explained, if what was clearly seen to be an abuse were to take place. I do not think that it will be necessary for me to use those powers in that case. I hope that it will not.
The hon. Gentleman referred to uneven administration. Of course, to some extent, that is a necessary feature of our system of local democracy. If we accept that the gentleman in Whitehall knows best, then we can do all these things over the country with exactitude and speed, but, I fear, with a great deal of local resentment. The special virtue of our local government system is that local people have a considerable say in what happens locally.
Frankly, I find it difficult enough to discharge the relatively limited responsibilities placed upon me by Parliament in this matter, as an appellate authority. If I had to be, as it were, the judge of first instance in all this business, and deal with every application from all over the country, no doubt we could achieve evenness instead of unevenness, but I should not for one moment presume to claim that the work would be done better than it is at present.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned Northumberland and Worcestershire as counties which were taking their responsibilities seriously. I assure him that they do not stand alone. There are many others which, I believe, are approaching this whole matter with a high sense of responsibility, for instance, Norfolk, Somerset, Hertfordshire, West Sussex, and others. It is not just one or two here and there. Moreover, I think that, when we have the amended Regulations as to areas of special control, several counties will evince a

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greater interest in this whole topic than, perhaps, they have hitherto.
The hon. Gentleman asked whether I would take action to collate or classify the information, meaning, I think, information about how local planning authorities are now making use of their powers under the advertisement Regulations. I am not sure that we could achieve much by any process of collating or classifying, but I can certainly tell the House that my Department and I do collect a considerable amount of knowledge about the way in which different local authorities administer the Regulations through the numbers of appeals which come to us each year. One can tell from that what the general approach of particular local authorities is.
As I expect the hon. Gentleman knows, I have a team of advertisement control officers who visit the sites of all advertisement appeals, and they are able to report back to me generally how advertisement control is being looked after throughout the country. I will bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said. If at any time it appears that I could help by issuing a further circular of guidance, I shall not hesitate to do so. Indeed, I would like him to know that I already have it in mind within the next few months to give further guidance on the question of public safety in relation to advertisements.
One of the hon. Gentleman's final points was about the statutory advertisements, and the advertisements put up by local authorities and the various public bodies which have the power to do so. Statutory notices are statutory and necessary, and one really cannot have a power of challenging notices that someone or other is, by Statute, required to put up. The functional advertisements, if one
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may so call them, put up by local authorities and other bodies fall within Class 1 of the specified class. They may be displayed only if they are reasonably required to obtain the safe or efficient performance of the function concerned, and they can be challenged if they cause substantial injury to amenity, or are a danger to the public.
I have some sympathy with the criticism that sometimes notices of that character are rather too prolific. I see photographs in the architectural journals and elsewhere depicting places where this creates a mess. If I may say so, I have the greatest admiration for the lead the Civic Trust gave, exemplified by its clearing up, or cleaning up, of Magdalen Street, Norwich. I think that we would all like to see that sort of thing happening elsewhere. So far as I know, everyone who participated in that experiment feels that it has been well worth while.
I trust that I have answered the main points raised by hon. Members on both sides. I certainly cannot produce advertisements older than those mentioned to us by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central. I thought that he had been most ingenious in the collection he had made. I can only conclude by telling the House of what I have always regarded as the best advertisement ever put up. It was written out, and put up by a school boy who had had some trouble at school. He had the enterprising idea of putting up a notice advertising the school for sale. Having described the buildings in somewhat pungent terms, he concluded, "And the contents include 20 old masters, suitable for private hanging."
Dr. Stross: In view of the Minister's reply, Mr. Speaker, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

SIERRA LEONE (EX-SERGEANT SEISAY)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Chichester-Clark.]
11.19 p.m.
Mr. Robert Edwards: I am, indeed, very grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for giving me this opportunity of raising the question of ex-Sergeant Seisay, of the Sierra Leone Police Force. The very fact that a humble citizen of the British Commonwealth who feels that he has been treated unfairly can have his case heard here, at the very centre of the Commonwealth, seems to me to personify our great British democracy. I am particularly grateful to the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary for being present this evening. During the last months he has been under very great pressure, and I think that his presence is characteristic of the earnestness that he has brought to his great office.
I would not have troubled the House with the case had it not been for the fact that I feel that ex-Sergeant Seisay has been subjected to a very grave injustice. It has ruined his career in the Sierra Leone Police Force. Mr. Seisay joined the force at the age of 19. He has three brothers, two of whom are in the Sierra Leone Police Force. Indeed, his elder brother is an aide-de-camp to the Governor of Sierra Leone. His elder brother served bravely in the British Armed Forces during the war. Their family is respected throughout Sierra Leone, so that any stain on the character of one of the brothers is a very serious stain on the character of the family. That is why this case is so important to me and so important to the good man concerned. He is a married man. He has a very cultured, educated wife and two children. Unless this stain is removed from his character, he, his wife and his family will find it very difficult to settle in this very small community of Sierra Leone.
In March, 1957, Mr. Seisay was on leave and in civilian clothes. He was a sergeant-teacher and a reception officer at the police training college at Hastings Village, outside Freetown. He was visited by a brother who lived 60 miles from Freetown and had just purchased
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a brand new motor bicycle. It was a very human thing to go and show his younger brother his new motor bicycle. This elder brother was an ex-Service man who served right through the war in Burma and had reached a managerial position in Sierra Leone.
It was rather late when the brother visited Mr. Seisay, and Mr. Seisay, who lived in the married quarters at the police school, and who was entitled to have a guest, asked him to stay the night. He was looking for a parking place for his brother's motor bicycle when he was asked by a superior officer, who, on the information that I have, was drunk, what he was doing and was ordered off the premises. Mr. Seisay was not under the control of the superior officer, and the superior officer was African, so that there is no politics in this, no question of colour in it, no question of African independence or anything like that. It is a simple question of elementary justice.
When ordered off the premises, Mr. Seisay argued that he was only finding a parking place for a motor bicycle. He was struck down by the superior officer, Chief Inspector Peters, who then ordered 40 new recruits to attack the two brothers, who were beaten up cruelly and thrown into prison. Mrs. Seisay had to beg the superior officer to release her husband for a while, get a taxi and take him to his doctor. Those are the circumstances of the case. I have a doctor's certificate which shows that the day after the incident Mr. Seisay was found to have been seriously wounded in the face and body, the wounds being consistent with Mr. Seisay's having been beaten severely with blunt instruments. This man committed no crime. He merely argued on his day off duty, when he wanted only to find a parking place for his brother's motor cycle.
Mr. Seisay was charged with insubordination and also with being in the women's compound of the school. That was a calculated and deliberate lie. Six witnesses were brought to court to prove that he was nowhere near the women's quarters. This was a married man living in the compound with his wife and two children. Two of the witnesses were family men in the Sierra Leone police. There were two families in the women's quarters—it was not a compound only

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for women, and Mr. Seisay was an assistant reception officer.
Yet this calculated lie blackening this man's character has been used on three occasions in correspondence with me to justify a refusal to reinstate him. No evidence whatever has been submitted to justify this stain on his character. Can hon. Members imagine what that stain means for a married man with a lovely, educated wife and two small children and with an elder brother aide-de-camp to the Governor and two other brothers in other respectable positions in the African community? Can hon. Members imagine what it means for this man to have to go through life with that stain on his character and on the characters of his wife, children and brothers? Yet every attempt I have made with two Colonial Secretaries to get a new inquiry into the business has failed.
On the advice of the Chief of Police, the case went to court. In court, the superior officer who made the charges against him was fined £5, or two months' imprisonment. Three out of the 40 recruits who attacked him were fined £5 and the presiding magistrate, Mr. Cummings-John, stated that if the charge had been brought under a different provision the sentences would have been much more severe. If there is any doubt about what I am saying, I have a cutting from the Daily Mail of Sierra Leone of 21st April, 1957, in which the case is fully reported. I do not have time to go into details, but it is all here and has never been denied.
I have two documents written since the incident. One is from the Commissioner for Sierra Leone, in Washington, who was a lecturer in social studies at the Fourah Bay College, in Freetown, where Mr. Seisay was educated. The following letter was written by Dr. William H. Fitzjohn, M.A., B.D., a man of great integrity, who is now the Commissioner in Washington for Sierra Leone:
"This is to certify that Samuel Seisay was known to me from his childhood, and I have followed him through the years with keen interest. After completing his schooling at Moyamba, he took up secondary school work at our Albert Academy where he did good work and showed much ability. Following his secondary education, he worked as a clerk at the Cold Storage in Freetown, and later entered the Sierra Leone Police Force where he rose to the rank of sergeant. Because of
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his keen ability, he was made a Tutor of Constables and lectured at refresher courses. The subjects he taught were: criminal law, criminal procedure, evidence and Sierra Leone Police Ordinance. Mr. Seisay has a very fine disposition and a good sense of duty and integrity to responsibility."
I also have a letter from the Education Officer of the Sierra Leone Police Force, which says:
"This is to certify that Samuel Seisay was my assistant teacher in the Sierra Leone Police Training School. He was also a Lecturer in Law, and attained the rank of sergeant up to the time he was with me. He was the organiser of the divine service in the school. Besides being an Assistant Reception Officer, he had great interest in the spiritual welfare of all the men that were under his command. He was honest, sociable and tolerant. Devotion to duty and integrity were his guiding principle. I am fully confident that he is capable of carrying out efficiently any duties that could be assigned to a Cambridge School Certificate holder. During his 4 years' stay in the Training School he lectured in Criminal law. … I recommend him to the authorities."
Those letters were written about the man whose case we are discussing this evening, the man whose character has been undermined, and whose confidence in British justice has almost been undermined. Despite my attempts to get this matter reconsidered, all that has happened is that his pension rights have been reduced from those for a sergeant to those for a private, because he was demoted. He eventually resigned from the police force so that he could fight for justice. One can imagine this man's feelings. Having risen to the rank of sergeant, he was reduced to the rank of private, and in a moment of thoughtlessness he resigned from the service.
I know that this case has been inquired into on two occasions. If I had time, I would quote police regulations and show that those regulations have been violated because all that has happened is that the case has been retried and the offence reduced to one of insubordination. Who tried the case? Police regulations for Sierra Leone state that a superior officer who tries a policeman under him acts as a magistrate, and should hear witnesses for both the defence and the prosecution. On both occasions those police regulations were violated. At these two inquiries no evidence was received from Mr. Seisay or any of his witnesses. The only evidence given came from those persecuting and prosecuting him. This

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is a complete violation of the police regulations. If I had the time I could give chapter and verse.
All I am asking is that this man should have an opportunity to give his side of the case—a side which has been heard only in court, where he won his case. No evidence was then submitted to prove that the charges against him were valid, and no witnesses were brought forward against him. All the witnesses were on the side of Mr. Seisay. There were six who witnessed the incident, and all gave evidence in court in his favour. He won his case, yet reinstatement is refused him, without the police authorities having an opportunity of hearing his side of the case.
Sierra Leone is a country which will soon have independence, and that country has great need for loyal citizens like Mr. Seisay and his family. Let us not turn this man sour. Let us not turn his family against British justice, because that would be a grave political error, apart from the whole question of justice and integrity.
The Secretary of State is a man whom I admire very much. He is ready to sweep away red tape and consider new problems on the basis of new ideas and principles. I beg him to reconsider this case. I am not asking him to give a decision tonight, because I have been able to make only a brief speech, owing to the limitations of time. But I beg him to agree to think in terms of a new inquiry into this case—not an elaborate public inquiry, but just one which will give this man a chance to bring forward his witnesses, so that some basis of justice can be accepted by him, and at least the stain on his character that has never been proved can be wiped out and he can be given a chance to go back to his country and become the constructive citizen that he hopes to become.
11.38 p.m.
The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Iain Macleod): The hon. Member for Bilston (Mr. R. Edwards) said that he was grateful to me for being here to reply to this short Adjournment debate. It is a very good thing that Secretaries of State should occasionally be reminded that they deal all the time with human problems, and I have spent a good deal of time looking into this very difficult
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case. I would make one thing absolutely clear at the beginning. The hon. Member said that Mr. Seisay is a fine man, with a fine family—and I am sure he is; that is not in dispute. We are concerned only with events that happened on 16th March, 1957—nearly three years ago—and with the question whether or not justice was done to Mr. Seisay. I entirely agree that it is right that a case like this should be brought to the Floor of the House of Commons in the end, if satisfaction cannot be obtained any other way.
I do not think that there is any dispute as to the facts of the case. They have been looked at so often that it is more the interpretation of the facts on which it is permissible to differ rather than the facts themselves. What happened on 16th March, 1957, is that Mr. Seisay and his brother were given an order by Chief Inspector Peters, an African officer, then Deputy Commandant of the School. He ordered them to leave the area where they were, which was near a part of the compound which was out of bounds. I do not suggest for a moment—and I do not think it relevant—that Mr. Seisay was there for any improper purpose at all. But he was given this order by his superior officer and there can be no question that insuborination is rightly treated as a serious offence in the police and in the Services.
When Mr. Seisay refused to obey this order he was mishandled. I admit that straight away. Excessive force beyond any question was used and this was a most improper action on the part of Chief Inspector Peters. He was taken to the guardroom and he suffered some injury as a result. The charge was then brought against him by Chief Inspector Peters that he had failed to carry out this order. He was found guilty by the Assistant Superintendent who tried the case and also by the Assistant Commissioner who reviewed the case and by the Governor who later looked at the case again, largely at the request of the hon. Member. I do not think that one can suggest for a moment that all those people—Chief Inspector Peters, the Assistant Superintendent, the Commissioner of Police and the two Secretarys of State who looked at this matter—were likely to be prejudiced against this man.

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It is unquestionably true that what was done by Chief Inspector Peters was wholly wrong because, as the hon. Member has pointed out, he was later convicted in court. But, with respect, I do not think that it is right to say that Mr. Seisay's case was only heard in the court. He was present at the earlier hearing at the disciplinary proceedings. He gave evidence on his own behalf and he cross-examined witnesses. So his case was put in evidence before Assistant Superintendent Cuffey, who heard the case in the first instance.
Since then the case has been reviewed many times. It has been sent back to the Governor, largely because it was not known at the time when the disciplinary proceedings were taken that the case against Chief Inspector Peters was pending. Accordingly, a review took place and, as the hon. Member very fairly said, the Governor varied the sentence and replaced the sentence of reduction to the rank of constable by a severe reprimand, which had the effect of back-dating his pay and recalculating his pension.
Two questions arise. The first—and this I find an unconvincing part of the hon. Member's case—is why Mr. Seisay chose to retire. The hon. Member said it was in a moment of foolishness, but it has also been suggested that he did not know the rule which would enable him to petition the Governor and, if necessary, to petition myself, as Secretary of State, through the Governor. But he stated in his application to resign that he was seeking to do so on the grounds of ill-health and the hazardous work of the police. He left the service on 1st February, 1958, when his term of engagement expired. I do not find the case put forward by the hon. Member convincing, that Mr. Seisay did not know the rules which, I think, are common knowledge, certainly to anybody who had had as much experience as Sergeant Seisay would have had at the time; nor that it was in a moment of thoughtlessness that he decided to leave the service. His request now is that he should be allowed to return to the service. The hon. Member asked that there should be a further inquiry into the case.
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On the question of whether it would be right for him to return to the service, this is, and must be, wholly a matter for the Governor. As I have said, he has sympathetically reviewed this case favourably to Mr. Seisay. It is wholly a matter within the competence of the Governor to decide whether a former police officer who has left the service at the expiry of his term and, as far as the records show, entirely on his own free-will, should be readmitted to the force. The view that the Governor has taken is that Mr. Seisay retired voluntarily and that it would not be in the interests of the discipline of the force to re-engage him.
Frankly, I do not think that it would be profitable to have a further inquiry into this matter, because, as I said, the facts are known, but I am deeply anxious that no man should feel injustice in any case for which we have responsibility in this House. I am very ready to ask the Governor, in the light of what the hon. Member has said tonight, and if Mr. Seisay wished to put forward any memorandum to us suggesting that he has not had an opportunity of fully stating his case, to look at the question of Mr. Seisay's employment in the Sierra Leone Police Force.
I am sure that the hon. Member will realise that this is a matter on which it would be wrong for me to make a recommendation to the Governor. It is a matter which the Governor must himself decide, but if Mr. Seisay would like to put a memorandum forward to me I would gladly forward it to the Governor and also draw his attention to what has been said by the hon. Member in this debate.
I should like Mr. Seisay to feel that we are concerned only with this one incident in what, I am quite certain, has been a career of very real service to his country. I do not think that he need feel aggrieved by that. If, beyond what I have said, the hon. Member for Bilston would like to see me about this case, I should be very glad to discuss it with him.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at eleven minutes to Twelve o'clock.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  National Health Service Employees (Superannuation Scheme)
  National Health Service Employees (Superannuation Scheme)
  National Health Service, Shrewsbury (Inquiry)
  National Health Service, Shrewsbury (Inquiry)
  Drugs
  Drugs
HOSPITALS
  Building Projects
  Building Projects
  Darenth Park and Bexley Mental Hospitals
  Darenth Park and Bexley Mental Hospitals
  BALLISTIC MISSILE EARLY WARNING STATION
  BALLISTIC MISSILE EARLY WARNING STATION
  CYPRUS
  CYPRUS
  CONSULAR OFFICERS (ASSISTANCE TO TRAVELLERS)
  CONSULAR OFFICERS (ASSISTANCE TO TRAVELLERS)
GERMANY
  Victims of Nazi Persecution (Compensation)
  Victims of Nazi Persecution (Compensation)
  Potsdam Agreement (Denazification Provisions)
  Potsdam Agreement (Denazification Provisions)
  British Military Mission (Passes)
  British Military Mission (Passes)
  EGYPT (EX-NAZIS)
  EGYPT (EX-NAZIS)
  REFUGEES
  REFUGEES
  HOUSE OF COMMONS CATERING
  HOUSE OF COMMONS CATERING
EMPLOYMENT
  Pre-Apprenticeship Training
  Pre-Apprenticeship Training
  Development Districts (Disabled Persons)
  Development Districts (Disabled Persons)
  Western Isles
  Western Isles
  Stornoway
  Stornoway
  Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Labourers)
  Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Labourers)
  Cowdenbeath
  Cowdenbeath
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Imported Potatoes
  Imported Potatoes
  Research Establishment, Aberdeen
  Research Establishment, Aberdeen
  Toxic Sprays
  Toxic Sprays
  Attested Herds (Tuberculosis Reactors)
  Attested Herds (Tuberculosis Reactors)
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Retirement Pensioners, Wales (Rents)
  Retirement Pensioners, Wales (Rents)
  Non-Contributory Old-Age Pensioners
  Non-Contributory Old-Age Pensioners
COAL
  Low Carbonisation Plant
  Low Carbonisation Plant
  Exports
  Exports
  Opencast Coal Mining (North Warwickshire)
  Opencast Coal Mining (North Warwickshire)
  Opencast Coal Mining (Policy)
  Opencast Coal Mining (Policy)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Purchase Tax
  Purchase Tax
  Medicines and Medical Preparations (Taxation)
  Medicines and Medical Preparations (Taxation)
  Entertainments Duty
  Entertainments Duty
  Income Tax Acts (Penalty Provisions)
  Income Tax Acts (Penalty Provisions)
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Willenhall (New Exchange)
  Willenhall (New Exchange)
ROYAL NAVY
  Royal Dockyards (Management)
  Royal Dockyards (Management)
  Clerks, Malta (Salaries)
  Clerks, Malta (Salaries)
INDIA AND PAKISTAN
  Indus Waters
  Indus Waters
ATOMIC ENERGY
  Underground Nuclear Explosions
  Underground Nuclear Explosions
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Coal-Mining Industry, Fife
  Coal-Mining Industry, Fife
  Cowdenbeath and Dunfermline (Unemployment)
  Cowdenbeath and Dunfermline (Unemployment)
BRITISH ARMY
  Army Lands Service, Overseas (staff)
  Army Lands Service, Overseas (staff)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chelmsford

SUPPORT FOR GILT-EDGED SECURITIES
2.35 p.m.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they were informed by the authorities of their intention to withdraw, on 24th February, support from the gilt-edged market; whether they concurred in this decision; and, in view of the concern felt at the continuing deterioration in the values of the national funds, whether they will consider indicating any floor below which they are not prepared to allow them to fall.]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are in the ordinary course kept informed of developments in the gilt-edged market and are consulted upon the broad lines on which the monetary authorities intend to work in their operations, though noble Lords will readily understand that the actual conduct of the operations must remain in the hands of those authorities. Her Majesty's Government were informed of the course of events on February 24 and are entirely content with the action taken. To describe this action as a withdrawal of support is, however, an overstatement. The Government do not believe that the market ought to be insulated by official action from the effects of decisions by holders of gilt-edged stock to buy or sell, though at times it may be desirable to assist in maintaining orderly market conditions. It follows that the answer to the last part of the noble Lord's question is in the negative.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for that Answer, may I ask him, in connection with the proposal contained in the third part of my Question, whether the Government have any other scheme or plan by which they can encourage holders of the funds? The noble Earl must realise that a large number of people, through no fault of their own, are very seriously hit by these falls in the value of the funds, and surely the Government have some responsibility for encouraging these people.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, may I, before the noble Earl answers, ask a simple question to which I suppose I ought to know the answer: who are the authorities referred to in the Question, and how are they appointed?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, if I may answer my noble friend first, the authorities are the Issue Department of the Bank of England and the Government broker. What the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, asked was, have the Government no responsibility to the holders of these stocks. Of course we appreciate that people can lose their capital if the stocks go down, but all that the Government try to do through the authorities is to even out temporary fluctuations in the price so as to maintain an orderly market. If it seems that supply is persistently in excess of demand so that the natural price tends to go down for the time being, the Government do not feel obliged to maintain the former price at an artificially high level by continued Government buying. We do not think it is right that the Government should be a kind of sink for unwanted Government stock at an artificially high price.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: My Lords, I quite appreciate that answer, but surely the Government have a great deal of responsibility, because it is their policy and their handling of the monetary situation over a period of years that have brought about this enormous drop in realisable value of gilt-edged stock and Government securities in particular.
LORD REA: My Lords, may I put a further question? Do the Government propose at any time to take steps to alleviate the really rather alarming position of those investors, most of whom

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are dependent on unearned income, who by taking Government advice about savings are put at a great disadvantage?
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, before the noble Earl answers, may I ask one more question? Is he not aware that the Radcliffe Committee recommended that when action of this kind was taken some explanation should be given? On this occasion no explanation was given. May I ask the noble Earl whether Her Majesty's Government are really quite indifferent to the fate of millions of shareholders in Government securities who were induced to buy them on the strength of what now appear to be almost fraudulent prospectuses?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I do not know how far your Lordships would like to have at Question Time a general debate on monetary policy; but all that happened last week was that the weight of selling, mainly from the banks, was so great that the authorities decided to make a larger reduction than normal in the price at which they were prepared to buy. There was no question of withdrawing support altogether, only of lowering the price at which the authorities were prepared to buy. I was most interested in the comments of my noble friend Lord Boothby in the Sunday Dispatch yesterday on this question. I assure him I read them with the greatest interest; also the not quite similar comments of the Sunday Dispatch Stock Exchange Correspondent on another page. I would also assure him that we do pay great attention to these views. But I think it is going a little wide of the Question to debate these general matters of economic policy at Question Time.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he could tell me from what source Her Majesty's Government obtain funds wherewith to support the market?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I think they obtain them from the Issue Department of the Bank of England.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he is aware that the Financial Times on Saturday described this action on the part of the Bank as a clumsy manœuvre, and would he agree with that description?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I do not think, after considering the matter very carefully indeed, that I would agree with that. I have the Financial Times of February 26 here, the article on the financial page. It must have been in some other part of the paper that they used that description, which is surely a matter of opinion.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, the 26th was Friday, and not Saturday.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, could the noble Earl tell us whether the "authorities" referred to are aware of what was the real dynamic of the action of the banks in unloading these Government stocks at such a rate as he describes? Was this a deliberate act of policy on the part of the large banks?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: No, my Lords. The dynamic was simply that the supply of bonds was keeping persistently in excess of the demand. The Government were not trying to lead a movement to push down the price at all. The fall of the price was a natural movement of supply and demand.

WEST GERMAN REARMAMENT
2.43 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether West German re-armament is only permitted within her obligations to N.A.T.O. and whether they agree or disagree with the suggestion which has been made in The Times newspaper that Western Germany is legally entitled to arrange to manufacture rockets and atomic warheads on non-German territory.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE): My Lords, the answer to the first part of the question is "Yes". As for the second part of the Question, there is in fact no prohibition in the revised Brussels Treaty against the manufacture by Western Germany of atomic, biological and chemical weapons out-

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side their own territory. It would, however, be entirely contrary to the spirit of the 1954 Brussels Treaty, and furthermore in direct contradiction to the statements repeatedly made by the Federal German Government. Her Majesty's Government have no reason to believe that the Federal German Government does not intend loyally to abide by the spirit and obligations which it has accepted through membership of N.A.T.O. and W.E.U.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Marquess for the Answer he has given, and I am glad to hear from him the view of the Government as to the spirit in which these matters should be conducted. But does he not agree that the latest statement from Dr. Adenauer is sufficient to give rise to still further anxiety in this country as to how these matters are going to be treated by Germany? In the light of the published report in the Sunday newspaper, that they are actually ordering tens of millions of pounds' worth of atomic missiles in the United States of America, I should be glad to know whether all this has been carried out within the spirit to which the noble Marquess referred. There is nothing in the statement of the German Government so far which gives us any ground for increased confidence in their co-operation.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I think we must all agree that these are matters that must be decided in N.A.T.O.; and indeed they will be.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess, who says that there is no prohibition on Western Germany's producing atomic, chemical and biological weapons outside their own territory, whether it is not a fact that the effect of the Paris Agreements was to substitute for occupation freedom for Germany within N.A.T.O.; that the Agreement restored to Federal Germany the full authority of a sovereign State over its internal and external affairs, and that as part of that arrangement the German Chancellor reaffirmed an undertaking or declaration which he had made in London on October 3, 1954, resigning the right to make atomic, biological and chemical weapons? Am I to understand
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that if a nation voluntarily resigns its sovereign right in respect of an important matter affecting its own internal territory—which is the only place where its sovereign rights operate—it can at the same time reserve to itself the right to do that very thing in somebody else's territory? That seems to me to be a most important point.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I would not disagree with the noble Lord that this is important, but it is purely hypothetical. I think perhaps it might be helpful if I just go over two or three points arising from The Times article to which the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition referred. First (I think your Lordships all know this), the whole build-up of the German defence effort is supervised by the North Atlantic Council. All forces of N.A.T.O. countries on the Continent of Europe, with very minor exceptions, notably national defence and police forces, are under the control of the Supreme Allied Commander, Europe, and every year N.A.T.O. conducts a review of the size and the scope of national defence efforts in which each member has to declare its allocation and deployment of national forces for defence. The revised Brussels Treaty lays down the level of the forces of each member of W.E.U. and this can be increased only in accordance with N.A.T.O. requirements and with the unanimous consent of all the members of W.E.U. The Treaty also requires the armaments of member countries to be in accordance with—I think this is important—the needs of their forces. Even supposing, in the hypothetical case, that the West Germans were to manufacture, or were to have manufactured, any weapons outside German territory, such weapons could not be used without N.A.T.O. consent.
LORD BOOTHBY: My Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess one question which is not at all hypothetical—namely, can he give the House any information as to what precisely the Germans have been up to in Spain, and whether prior approval of N.A.T.O. for whatever they have done—it may be they have done nothing—was obtained?
LORD REA: My Lords, if the noble Marquess would not mind my asking a supplementary question, may I ask whether Her Majesty's Government could

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give any result of any investigations they may have made into the possible connection between the German-Spanish conversations and evidence of some resurgence of Nazi mentality in Western Germany?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, it is not possible to give any exact information as to what has been happening. As I told your Lordships on Thursday, no specific proposals have been made, so that there is no specific matter which we can discuss. All we know is that there have been conversations, and that is really as far as our information goes. I believe that answers the noble Lord's question. I am afraid the question of the noble Lord, Lord Rea, is rather wide-reaching and far away from the original Question.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, if I may press the noble Marquess, may I say that we are aware of the facts which the noble Marquess gave in his reply to me, but, with all respect, they do not answer the point I have raised. My noble Leader put the point very clearly: do Her Majesty's Government agree with the statement by The Times? I gather from the answer of the noble Marquess that Her Majesty's Government do agree with The Times. Now that is the very point I am taking up. I am asking the noble Marquess whether, if a Government voluntarily surrenders or limits its sovereign right—in this case in respect of producing atomic and other weapons on its own territory—that does not also include the surrender of the right to make the same things on somebody else's territory. I feel that we are entitled to just as clear an answer on that point as we had on the other.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I can assure your Lordships that I was not seeking to be evasive. I thought I had made clear that there is, in fact. no prohibition in the revised Brussels Treaty against the manufacture by West Germany of atomic, biological or chemical weapons outside her territory. I particularly wished to answer this question as directly as I could. However, I qualified it by saying that it goes completely against the whole spirit of the thing, and we have no reason to sup-
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pose, after we have heard these repeated statements from the German Federal Government, that our Ally is doing anything sinister or underhand or not correct. I feel that it is not wise to jump to conclusions at once that something strange, sinister and underhand is being done.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, I have been very careful in all the questions I have put to-day and those I put last week not to involve the Federal German Government at all. My question and that of my noble Leader was based on the statement in The Times and I want to say quite frankly that it is the first time in all these years that I have heard anybody put forward the right of Germany to make atomic weapons outside her own territory. What we are trying to find out is whether the view expressed by The Times is accepted by Her Majestys' Government. We are not involving the Federal German Government. So far as I know, they have never asked for, or claimed, the right to do this; and I am making no charges against the Federal German Government. But if the noble Marquess is right, Her Majesty's Government agree with the statement in The Times that Federal Germany has this right. May I ask whether, when these Conventions were negotiated and this precise term was discussed—"within German territory", which is no accidental phrase—any reservation was made by the Germans that it applied to their rights within Germany and not to their rights without Germany?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I will tell your Lordships at once that I do not know the answer to that question, but I thought I had made it perfectly clear, and I repeat it for a third time, that there is no specific prohibition contained within the terms of the Brussels Treaty. As to the last point raised by the noble Lord, I do not know the answer. I will certainly make it my business to find out.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess whether he is aware that the anxiety expressed by the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition is enhanced by the fact that Herr Krupp, who broke his word of honour—if he ever had any—never again to engage in the manufacture of industrial steel and iron, signed a contract on

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February 3 last with a firm in Bilbao to erect a modern, up-to-date German steel plant with a capacity of 400,000 tons a year? And has the noble Marquess yet any information on a Question I put down the other day, namely, is there any information to show that Herr Krupp was a party to the approaches on the part of Herr Strauss, the German Defence Minister, for military bases in Spain?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, with regard to the last point I have no further information on that subject. I know it has been alleged that there was to be a factory at Bilbao manufacturing German missiles. As I believe your Lordships are well aware, this has been categorically denied both by the Government of the German Federal Republic and by the Spanish Government.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, may I put a supplementary question? I agree that there is no specific prohibition in the documents, apart from manufacture "on German territory", but would he be good enough to inquire whether, when this 1954 Agreement was made, any reservation was made by Federal Germany that they would still have the right to make these weapons on somebody else's territory, or whether, when a Government resign their sovereign rights in respect of a particular matter within their own territory that Government automatically still have the right to do the same thing in somebody else's territory.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I will certainly try to help the noble Lord over this point, but, as I said earlier, even supposing the hypothetical case that such weapons were made, the German Federal Government would not be able to use them.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, with all respect, that is not the point.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I appreciate that it is not the point, but it is also a fact.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I feel we are all very thankful that the House has been patient during Question Time, but this is a very important matter. I do
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not wish to pursue it at this moment but I would ask Her Majesty's Government to submit to Parliament a White Paper covering the whole of the matters which have been raised, giving the history of the documents and stating where they have been, by action, departed from "in spirit"—which are the words used by Her Majesty's Government—and what is proposed to be done, in order that the matter can be properly debated in Parliament.

FIRST OFFENDERS (SCOTLAND) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

INDECENCY WITH CHILDREN BILL [H.L.]
3.0 p.m.
Order of the Day read for the Bill to be considered on Report.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now received.
Moved, That the Report be now received.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Clause 1:
Indecent conduct towards young child.
1.—(1) Any person who commits an act of gross indency with or towards a child under the age of fourteen, or who incites a child under that age to such an act with him or another, shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds, or to both.
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved in subsection (1), to leave out "fourteen" and insert "sixteen". The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name. It is identical in terms to the Amendment which I moved on the Committee stage and my main reason for putting it down is that the noble and learned Viscount, perhaps somewhat reluctantly, promised that he would have another look at the points I had made. I thought I would give him the opportunity of so doing this afternoon. Of course, there is another place, and I have no doubt that this matter will be raised there as it has been raised

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here, but it would be more satisfactory if it could be disposed of in this House.
I do not wish to repeat the arguments for raising above fourteen the age of any child with whom it is an offence to commit an indecent act. I think I have previously deployed the case fairly fully, and the only thing I want to say in addition is that I have been looking at the Crowther Report on Education, and the opening words of paragraph 144 are that, among these backward boys and girls, there are some who are patently too immature to go out into the world at fifteen. They are physically and emotionally, as well as mentally, below average. In a real sense they can still be described as children. That is the argument, or one of the arguments, for raising the school-leaving age in respect of this type of child: that he is not fit to go out into the world and will benefit in many cases even more than the more advanced child. The point I want to make is, therefore, that it is accepted that there are a considerable number of children who are emotionally, as well as in other respects, immature and that they need protection; and, in my view, they ought to be protected under this Bill.
The main argument that was put forward by the noble and learned Viscount for retaining the age of fourteen was that children to-day mature and reach the age of puberty much earlier, and so on; a child of fourteen really knows what he is about and therefore ought not to be protected; if an adult person incites that child to commit an act of indecency, well, it is that child's look-out once it is the age of fourteen. With great respect, I think that is a nonsensical argument. I am supported very much by the facts which the Crowther Committee have brought out: that there are many children who are not mature, and those are the children whom we want to protect. I hope that the noble and learned Viscount can give us a rather more assuring reply than he did on the last occasion. I do not want to detain the House from what may be regarded as more important business, but I thought I would deliver one more blow in the interests of this class of child who needs protection, and I hope that the noble and learned Viscount will be able to give us a satisfactory reply.
Amendment moved—
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Page 1, line 6, leave out ("fourteen") and insert ("sixteen").—(Lord Silkin.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, we have given very serious consideration to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and I am sorry that on that consideration we have felt ourselves unable to meet his point of view. Your Lordships will appreciate that there are two matters which, if I may put it in legal language, lay a very heavy onus on the noble Lord. The first is that the Criminal Law Revision Committee made a firm recommendation that it would be wrong to choose an age as high as sixteen. They chose the age of fourteen, and the runner-up in ages to fourteen was thirteen. The second point is really an aspect of the point which was made with great strength by the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, during the Committee stage, and that is the point of the difficulties which the existing special protection afforded to girls under sixteen already cause in relation to offences by boys of the same age with mature fifteen or sixteen-year-old girls. I am sure that your Lordships who heard the argument of the noble Baroness will realise how important the point is. In view of both of these points a strong case would have to be made out if the age limit in the Bill were to be raised; and, as I say, I have considered, but not been convinced by, Lord Silkin's argument that there are some girls between fourteen and sixteen who are still at school and may be lacking in sexual knowledge and therefore need protection as much as younger children.
With regard to the Crowther Report, apart from the general argument that Sir Geoffrey Crowther was speaking in a different context, I should say that the emphasis on the excerpt which the noble Lord referred to would be on the word "some". Of course the point applies to some, but we have to consider the problem in the context of this offence, and that argument seems to underestimate two points. First, a fourteen to sixteen-year-old girl may be relatively ignorant of sexual matters, but it does not follow that she is unable to recognise indecent conduct. Secondly, it does not seem that, as a matter of fact, the girls in this age group are likely to be the subject of the offences at: which Clause 1 (1) is particularly aimed; and

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that is particularly borne out by the ages of the victims in the Director of Public Prosecution's group of 70 victims which I quoted in Committee.
One must come to the real point of this offence. This was made an offence to close a gap in the criminal law which had been discovered after many years, and the principal form of indecency which it is desired to prevent is the invitation to a young girl to handle a man indecently. And the type of child whom it is necessary to protect against this particular form of indecency is the child who will do or submit to indecent acts without realising, first of all, their significance, and, secondly, that they are indecent. This presupposes a fairly young child, a child who is not only ignorant of sexual matters but ignorant of the context of indecency. A child of fourteen or fifteen who is lacking in sexual knowledge may not understand why a man behaves as he does, but must surely know that such behaviour is indecent and ought not to be indulged in or permitted.
I should have thought, with regard to the girl of fourteen to sixteen, that the offence which is more greatly to be feared—the one to which she is more likely to be subjected—is that in which the man goes beyond the offence which is contemplated by Clause 1 (1) and the offence passes into the sphere of indecent assault. A child of an age to know about acts of indecency of that kind is unlikely to be exposed to indecent invitations of the kind in question, because it is of the essence of the reason for this offence that the men who commit it get their sexual gratification out of the very innocence of the child and the fact that the child is indecently handling them and knowing nothing about the implications and is an innocent little girl. It is a form of perverted sexual activity and it is, as I say—one must be blunt about it—the very innocence of the child that produces the sexual gratification in this unfortunate class of man.
In dealing with that, I think it is right that one is dealing with young children; but in the case of girls of fourteen to sixteen, it is much more likely to be an indecent assault—and, of course, the prohibition and sanction against that is already provided for in the criminal law. As your Lordships know, the figures that
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I gave to the House in Committee were obtained after inquiries of the various police forces by the Director of Public Prosecutions in order to see whether this gap in the law was one which ought to be dealt with; and, on that point, it is interesting that the Director's figures showed that 65 of the 70 victims in the cases which were brought to his attention were under eleven, and only one was fourteen. My Lords, these figures are not all the cases, but we have no reason to suppose that if one had all the cases the figures would show a different variation in constitution.
Now, my Lords, I think we have to face the fact that the disadvantage of raising the age of the victim beyond what is strictly necessary is the one which the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, raised in the debate during the Committee stage. It is that it increases the area in which difficulty arises because a girl permits, or even incites, an offence well knowing what she is doing; and it is in this connection that the fear expressed during the debate in Committee on Lord Saltoun's Amendment by the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, that young people may be prosecuted for indecent conduct with consenting young people, has some substance. If the age of a victim were raised to sixteen, a fifteen year old girl might incite a sixteen year old boy to acts of indecency for which he would be liable to be prosecuted; and the courts already have difficulty with the somewhat similar situation which occurs at present when a girl under sixteen incites a boy to have intercourse with her. He commits an offence, and if he knows her age he has no defence, although morally she is, or may be, more culpable than he. I submit to your Lordships that a similar situation should not be allowed to arise in relation to this lesser offence. There is little likelihood, I suggest, of a girl over fourteen becoming a victim because she does not know that the conduct is indecent; but there is considerable likelihood of a boy committing an offence with a girl who knows very well that the conduct is indecent and permits or incites the offence. It has consequently been thought better to keep the age down to the level below which the protection of the clause is really needed.

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My Lords, those are the arguments which we have considered. It is a difficult point, because all of us—and especially those of us who are the fathers of daughters—have a great deal of sympathy with the noble Lord's desire to protect girls between fourteen and sixteen; but it is essential, when one is asking Parliament to create a new criminal offence, that one should consider the whole balance of the subject. That is what I have tried to do. I am fortified by the fact that my view follows that of Lord Justice Sellers and his colleagues on the Criminal Law Revision Committee. For the reasons which we have heard, and weighing the views which have been so forcibly put before this House, I think that we ought to follow the Committee and take the age of fourteen, remembering that the alternative to that would have been thirteen, and that, for the reasons I have given, we ought not to put up the age. Like the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, I am sure that this subject will receive attention in another place. It is obviously one of great importance: and I think the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, knows that if I could have met him without doing harm to the views which I hold very strongly and very sincerely I would have done so. But as or consideration, I find that I cannot, I ask him not to press his Amendment to-day.
On Question, Amendment negatived.

PUBLIC HEALTH LABORATORY SERVICE BILL [H.L.]
3.16 p.m.
Order of the Day read for the Bill to be considered on Report.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now received.
Moved, That the Report be now received.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Schedule [Constitution of Public Health Laboratory Service Board]:
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM VISCOUNT HAILSHAM moved to leave out paragraphs 3 to 5 and to insert instead:
"3. The Board shall consist of a chairman appointed by the Minister and such other
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members so appointed as the Minister thinks lit, and the members shall include—

(a) not less than two persons appointed after consultation with the Medical Research Council; and

(b) not less than two persons with experience as bacteriologists appointed after consultation with such organisations as the Minister thinks appropriate; and

(c) not less than two persons holding office as medical officer of health of a local authority; and

(d) not less than one person appointed after consultation with such organisations as appear to the Minister to represent the hospital service; and

(e) not less than one fully registered medical practitioner engaged in general medical practice, appointed after consultation with such organisations as the Minister may recognise as representative of practitioners so engaged.

4. Subject to paragraph 5 of this Schedule members shall be appointed for a term of three years.
5. Of the members first appointed one-third (as nearly as may be) shall be appointed for a term of one year and one-third (as nearly as may be) for a term of two years; and any member appointed to fill a casual vacancy shall be appointed for the remainder of the term for which his predecessor was appointed."
The noble and learned Viscount said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name on the Order Paper, which I foreshadowed on the Committee stage. The design of the Amendment has been to meet the views of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, which he put forward in the two debates we have already had on this subject. As the House will see, it substitutes a new constitution for the proposed Board for that contained in paragraph 3 of the old Schedule; and there are, of course, consequential new paragraphs 4 and 5. The Amendment provides that the Board should consist of a Chairman to be appointed by the Minister of Health and such other members so appointed as the Minister thinks fit, including, first, not less than two persons appointed after consultation with the Medical Research Council; second, not less than two bacteriologists appointed after consultation with suitable representative bodies; third, not less than two medical officers of health; fourth, not less than one person representing the hospital service; and, fifth, not less than one general practitioner.
This arrangement ensures representation of the interests concerned as users of the service, and also of the Medical

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Research Council and of the special branch of the medical profession concerned in providing the service. The minimum legal number of members under the new clause will be eight, although the minimum intended is nine, but the Minister will be able to appoint members in addition to those specified, if he thinks it necessary, in order to achieve the desirable balance. The specific inclusion of representatives of the hospital service and of general medical practice meets points made by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, and the Amendment also meets his other point, that the Chairman should not necessarily or always be a member of the medical profession. The appointment will be entirely at the discretion of the Minister, and it is therefore quite possible, as the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, suggested in the Second Reading debate, that a layman may be appointed from time to time. The actual composition of the Board will depend on the results of the Minister of Health's consultations with the various bodies concerned, and it is therefore necessary to await these before the Minister can reach decisions on the chairmanship or membership. My Lords, with that explanation I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 9, leave out paragraphs 3 to 5, and insert the said new paragraphs.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble and learned Viscount, and his right honourable friend the Minister of Health, for the very generous way in which they have treated our suggestions on this. I must not claim the credit for it: it was my noble friend Lord Amulree, as well as I; and he has greater experience, perhaps, of the hospital side than I have. But we are very pleased indeed that the Minister and the Lord Privy Seal should have brought the hospital service and the general practitioners into this Council.
I am pleased to see that there is to be no maximum number, so that if it is desired to introduce people who have
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other interests, that can be done. We know that the length of service of members of the Committee is to be three years, and I presume that this applies to the Chairman as well as to the other members—I think that this is a correct retding of the second line of the new Amendment. It is possible, however, for any member to be reappointed—again this follows in the rest of the Schedule. In that way, this Committee differs from the Medical Research Council, where I do not think reappointment is possible. Nevertheless, we should like to express the hope that in making the appointments the Minister will change the composition from time to time, so that there may be a fairly widespread representation of bacteriologists from the hospitals and other services, and of representatives of the hospital services, so that it will be not a static Committee but a committee varying over the years, with continuity achieved through its officers rather than necessarily through the various members. Once more, I should like to thank the noble and learned Viscount for the way in which he has listened to our representations.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

RADIOACTIVE SUBSTANCES BILL [H.L.]
3.22 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty to signify to the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Radioactive Substances Bill, has consented to place Her Majesty's interest, so far as it is concerned on behalf of the Crown, the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall, at the disposal of Parliament for the purpose of the Bill. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Viscount Hailsham.)
On Question, Bill read 3a; Amendments (privilege) made: Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

LOCAL EMPLOYMENT BILL
3.23 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Purpose for which Part I powers exercisable, and duration of powers]:
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON moved to leave out subsection (6). The noble Lord said: I beg to move the first Amendment on the Order Paper standing in my name and the name of my noble friend Lord Shepherd. It seems to me that this Bill, in its construction, falls a good deal short of achieving the purpose which it desires to achieve, and that nothing is more dangerous and unproductive in the structure of the Bill than subsection (6) of Clause 1, which limits the operation of the Bill to seven years. If it is desirable to make a new Act to take the place of those which have been operating during the last seven years or so to give powers to take special action when pockets and areas of especially acute unemployment develop, as they almost inevitably must develop with the changes in industry and trade, then it is essential that there should be a long-term remedy. Merely to pass a new Act wiping out the old and with a limit of seven years seems to me destructive of the purpose of the Bill. No really valuable machinery can be established in time if this sort of limit is put in. We are getting rid of what has been a valuable contribution to this problem—the existing Distribution of Industry Acts, 1945 to 1958—and I would suggest to your Lordships that it is very desirable that this limit should be removed.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 31, leave out subsection (6).—(Lord Wilmot of Selmeston.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: This Amendment was one which was moved, in another place and discussed at some considerable length. In the end it was negatived without a Division. One
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difficulty about answering it is that it seems to raise so many opportunities for irrelevance and arguing in circles, and the noble Lord, Lord Wilmot of Selmeston, has said very little indeed in its support. He mentioned one of the arguments which have been put forward—namely, that this is not a very good Bill. The reply to that is, of course, that if you think it is not a very good Bill why do you object to its term being limited to seven years? Another argument in support of the Amendment is that Parliament at any time can revise legislation if it wishes to do so. The answer is, of course, that in the same way if Parliament does not want to revise this Measure in seven years' time, it will be a simple procedure to bring in a one-clause Bill continuing the Act, as it then will be, exactly as it is now.
The reason for putting this term to the life of the Bill is not that we think it a bad Bill which ought not to live for very long; it is not that we are confident that the problem will be solved in seven years; and it is not that we think that, if the problem should not be solved in seven years, we ought to throw in our hand. The reason simply is that this problem of the redistribution of industry is one which is continually changing in relation to our industrial pattern. Industrial conditions in the twentieth century in Britain are not static they are extremely flexible; and we want to make sure that our legislation on the subject is sufficiently flexible to keep up with them.
I think that the Distribution of Industry Act, 1945, was a good Act, but I believe that it would have been an even better one if it had contained some proviso of this kind, so that Parliament would have been compelled at the end of a certain term of years either to continue it, if so desired, or at least to review it and to reconsider it. Because, in spite of the efforts of noble Lords opposite, in public life there is still a great deal of conservatism, still a great deal of inertia, not only on the part of the Government and perhaps on the part of the Civil Service, but also on the part of Parliament, which is always faced with a heavily congested programme of business. There is always the temptation to say, "We have a perfectly good

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Act on the Statute Book, and we have so many other things to which we want to give priority, so why not leave it alone?" It would have been far better if Parliament had been compelled to review the Act of 1945 by the fact of that Act coming to an end before now. Had that been the case, I think our legislation would have been more up to date.
The only reason for putting in this provision is, that we want to make absolutely sure that, whatever Party may be in power, Parliament, despite pressure of other business, despite innate conservatism or inertia, will be obliged, before the expiry of seven years, to take another look at the progress of our legislation.
The reason why the particular number of years has been chosen is simply that we think it is a reasonable time. It takes three or four years from the time a factory is first approved to the time when it is built, has its machinery installed and is in full production, giving full employment to the maximum number of people it is expected to employ. Therefore it would be clearly undesirable to insist that this legislation should be reviewed again before three or four years; and perhaps double that time is a reasonable period to elapse before we should insist that Parliament look again at what it is doing now.
There is nothing particularly sacred about the number seven as compared with eight or six, but there are some respectable precedents for a septennial review of matters of this kind. When Jacob married Leah, the daughter of Laban, he anticipated that his domestic happiness in the course of time might be greatly improved if he could marry her sister Rachael as well. He therefore made a bargain with his father-in-law, Laban, that after a lapse of a period of seven years the matter should be reviewed and he would be able to have two wives instead of one. I have no doubt that if in the interval Jacob had changed his mind he would have found a way of getting out of it; but the point is that Laban was legally bound at the end of seven years to review the position, which was in fact eventually reviewed.
The sole reason why we want this position to be reviewed is that we want
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to make quite sure that Parliament will not, through any kind of inertia, neglect the obviously desirable duty of making sure that our legislation on this subject is kept up to date. As I said on Second Reading, we are not presumptuous enough to say that the problem will be solved in seven years. We very much hope that by that time new standards of industrial prosperity will be spreading through all the development areas in every part of Great Britain; and if that should happen, I think it will be necessary that this problem should be looked at and reviewed in a new light.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: I am a little puzzled by the noble Earl's literary simile. Am Ito understand that he is giving notice to the many partners in this long-term enterprise he is inviting that he proposes to take divorce proceedings in seven years?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I do not think such proceedings would be valid, because the contracts made under this Bill will not be terminated by the limitation in the life of the Bill.
LORD SHEPHERD: I am sure your Lordships will be grateful for the speech that has just been made by the noble Earl, Lord Dundee. My noble friend asked the Minister why the period should be seven years, and I am sure he will remember that on Second Reading I made a speech in which I dwelt for some time on this very point. I drew the Minister's attention to the fact that, whilst this Bill had a limit of years, previous measures, such as the Rent Act, and others to which we strongly objected, had had no particular life given to them. I should like to put this point to the Minister. What is seven years? I suppose to a schoolboy seven years is eternity, and to an elderly man it may be a span of life. But to industry seven years is nothing. We see in many industries the long periods of time before development can take place. We on this side of the Committee feel strongly that it is quite wrong, in spite of what the noble Earl has said, to give this Bill, which in the Government's view is a genuine effort to deal with unemployment, any particular duration. I believe that it is psychologically wrong, particularly to the people who will have to administer the various provisions in the Bill.

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I suppose that the Bill, which is entitled "Local Employment Bill", deals specifically with hard-core areas of unemployment. But we see the pattern of industry changing, and I think the Committee will agree that we are living in a form of industrial revolution. We feel that we should not wait until unemployment is imminent, or has arisen, before action is taken. We believe that there should be legislation whereby the Government can anticipate the trends and changes of industry, and by anticipating them—and there are very good methods of anticipating trends of trade and industry—it is possible to start moving in, by inducement and encouragement, a new type of industry. The noble Earl spoke on Second Reading about the need for diversification of industry. If you can anticipate possible unemployment, then you can have the means of preventing what I think was once described as "the dark and hungry years between the wars".
I feel that this Amendment is fundamental and that it is for the good of the Bill. I hope that the Government will change their mind. My noble friend just asked a question of the Minister, and I should like to take him a little further on that. We have the case (I understand that it is not quite within this Bill) of the Ford Motor Company going to Liverpool. It will receive Government assistance. According to this Bill, this aid can be granted if unemployment is at a high level. We have a list about which I will speak later. This list can be added to and taken from. What happens in the case of Liverpool if, after Ford's are established there, the rate of unemployment falls below what the Government regard as a high level and Ford's wish to expand? Is it possible that Ford's will be refused a licence to expand the factory they will be building in Liverpool at the request of the Government? As I see it, these provisions will cease in seven years' time. If the particular provisions that protect industry and help them when they go to these areas will cease seven years hence, I believe these concerns will think again very seriously. I would ask the noble Earl whether he can give me a reply to that point, because I believe it is most important. Coming back to what I said in the earlier part, I believe the Government should, for the good of this Bill,
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agree to the deletion of this seven years' limit.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: If there are no other of your Lordships who want to speak, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, would like me to say a brief word in reply to the additional points which he has raised. I do not agree at all that this would be a psychological mistake. The noble Lord said that industry in this country was undergoing a revolution and was subject to widespread and continuous change. If that is so, surely it is not a good thing that we should tie ourselves down for ever to the static conditions of one Bill. Surely that makes it all the more necessary that Parliament should review the situation.
The noble Lord said that seven years was an eternity in the life of a schoolboy and a very short time in the life of a man who was nearing the end of his days. But we must consider it neither from the point of the schoolboy nor from the point of the old man, but from the point of view of British industry. If British industry is expanding at the rate which the noble Lord himself emphasised, then, surely, it is necessary that we should plan our legislation and that it should be continually kept up to date. The noble Lord asked what would happen if Ford's agree—as I hope they will; I do not yet know whether they will—to go to Liverpool and what would happen there. Of course, under this Bill the list of development districts is subject to alteration from time to time. It is conceivable that if one development area achieved the condition of full employment it might be omitted from the list. But that does not mean that an industrial development certificate would be refused for further development in that area; it means only that you would not get inducements to develop there.
Suppose the noble Lord had gone a little further. Suppose that most of the development areas in seven years' time were to achieve a condition of full or nearly full employment. Then, perhaps, we might want to give, say, depopulation priority over unemployment, a course which we are not taking at present because we think that unemployment should have priority. The noble Lord said that we ought to look a long way ahead and have foresight. Of course we ought. But in view of the changes which

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are taking place in British industry every month, if the noble Lord's foresight can look all that way ahead beyond seven years then I think it is a miraculous thing. It is not the Government's belief that the foresight of any planner would enable him to foresee circumstances so far ahead.
LORD SHEPHERD: The noble Earl spoke a few moments ago about the rigidity of this Bill, and said that for that reason we should limit the life of the Bill to seven years. I understood the Government's case for this new Bill was to repeal the old Act, which the House and Parliament have accepted was a good Act. They have asked us to agree to this new Bill because it is flexible.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: It is.
LORD SHEPHERD: Then why is the noble Earl making the case that we must limit it because of its rigidity?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Priorities may have to be altered, as well as the flexible list of the development districts.
LORD SHEPHERD: The priorities have still to be assessed by the Board of Trade. I thought that that was the reason why each development area and each town should be on the list.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The priorities are defined under Clause 1, and as a result of months of debate the definition of Clause 1 has been continuously reviewed, and in some respects amended, in another place.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
3.45 p.m.
On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD SHEPHERD: I should like to say a few words before the Lord Chairman of Committees put this clause to the vote. As the noble Earl will remember, I said on Second Reading that I thought—and my friends agreed with me—that this was a bad Bill. I am sure the noble Earl was aware that, whatever support he may have received, it was lukewarm. It is quite clear that the Bill that has been received by the House and Parliament is certainly not the type that the electors at the last General Election were led to expect. My
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noble friend Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor quoted the speech made by Sir David Eccles. He said that there was to be a revolutionary Tory plan for tackling unemployment and that the Bill was already drafted. He said that it would bring a totally new approach to the problem.
I am not going to be guilty of making a Second Reading speech, but I am going to ask my friends to divide on this clause because we believe that we should at least protest at the type of Bill which has been placed before Parliament. I would ask the Minister again why this Bill was necessary. We had a perfectly good Act in being, namely, the 1945 Act. It was followed by a series of other Acts, the last one being the 1958 Act. Those two Acts, I understand, covered approximately 23 to 24 per cent. of the insured population. We now understand that only 12 per cent. of the insured population are going to be covered by the list that has been issued by the Minister in respect of this Bill. This is a very serious matter. When one looks at the list of towns one becomes conscious of the irony of the former President of the Board of Trade when he was issuing his good news to the unemployed in Lancashire, and yet in this list there is not one Lancashire cotton town. The Minister said that this Bill was drafted before the General Election. He must have known then—he must have had some idea—what type of town or area would be in this Bill, and yet he made that speech in Lancashire. I feel it is very close to what the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, referred to as a fraudulent prospectus.
I want to ask a question in regard to D.A.T.A.C. Under these regulations the Government were able to give assistance to firms who were willing to go into the development areas. By this Bill they will cease to have the financial help and otherwise of the Government. I want to ask the Minister whether the application of a firm which has already lodged an application for assistance to go into these areas, will, because of the passing of the Bill, become null and void. I believe that this is a serious matter, because there are many towns throughout the country which have gone out of their way to attract firms to come to their particular areas. They have had their offer of assistance by the Government,

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and now they find that this Bill will possibly prevent—I will use these words—these firms from coming to this area.
I am not going to be guilty of a Second Reading speech. My views, I think, are well understood. There is no urgency in this Bill; there is no long-term planning; there is no anticipation of the change in industry with resulting unemployment. It is limited in scope
Resolved in the Affirmative, and Clause 1 agreed to accordingly.
4.0 p.m.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON moved, after Clause 1 to insert the following new clause:
Directions
".—(1) For the purposes of this Part of this Act the Board shall have power to issue, by statutory instrument, a direction to the proprietors or managers of any undertaking which, in the opinion of the Board, is likely within two years to require new premises, and any such direction may prohibit the said proprietors or managers from acquiring new premises otherwise than in any development district specified in the direction.
(2) Any statutory instrument made under this section shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament."
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment can be explained only if I have your Lordships' toleration to deal with it in conjunction with Amendment No. 12 which seeks to insert a new clause after Clause 19. May I ask your Lordships' indulgence to consider the two clauses together, and ask your for-
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and it is limited in its purpose in time. Therefore I would ask my friends to join me in opposing this clause in the Committee stage.
On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall stand part of the Bill?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 46: Not-Contents, 16.

CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Derwent, L.

Merrivale, L.

Airedale, L.

Dundee, E.

Meston, L.

Albemarle, E.

Ebbisham, L.

Milverton, L.

Amulree, L.

Ferrers, E.

Newall, L.

Baden-Powell, L.

Grantchester, L.

Northesk, E.

Balfour of Inchrye, L.

Grenfell, L.

Ogmore, L.

Bathurst, E. [Teller.]

Hampton, L.

Onslow, E. [Teller.]

Birdwood, L.

Hastings, L.

Rugby, L.

Bossom, L.

Hawke, L.

St. Oswald, L.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Home, E. (L. President.)

Saltoun, L.

Carrington, L.

Horsbrugh, B.

Simon, V.

Chesham, L.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Soulbury, V.

Colville of Culross, V.

Howe, E.

Spens, L.

Colyton, L.

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Swaythling, L.

Conesford, L.

MacAndrew, L.

Torrington, V.

Crookshank, V.

NOT-CONTENTS

Burden, L. [Teller.]

Lawson, L.

Taylor, L.

Chorley, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Uvedale of North End, L.

Crook, L.

Pethick-Lawrence, L.

Williams, L.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Shepherd, L.

Wilmot of Selmeston, L.

Henderson, L.

Stonham, L.

Wise, L.

Latham, L.

giveness if this is a rather clumsy way of going about the business? The purpose of Amendments Nos. 2 and 12 is to seek to bring into this Bill in desirable circumstances powers to limit the continuous growth of huge office buildings in the centre of London and other large overcrowded towns. It seeks to do it by these means: that where the Government, through the Board of Trade, have knowledge that a particular industrial enterprise is contemplating seeking, under this Bill, specially favourable treatment if they go into one of the specified areas, it should be competent for the Government to say, "We will help you here only if you will do something to help us. What we want you to do is to cease expanding the office buildings in the centre of London."
We have a most interesting case of this immediately around us. On the banks of the Thames between Waterloo Bridge and Vauxhall Bridge, there are being built and are about to be built three or four huge skyscraper office buildings. There is the great Shell building by the

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Festival Hall, there is the new building for, I believe, Vickers, which is to rise on the site of the old Millbank prison just past the I.C.I. buildings on the North bank, and there is the further development at the old Vauxhall Gas Works site—a huge site. I understand that it is possible that between these three buildings somewhere between 10,000 and 20,000 clerical workers of various kinds may be employed. This will tip into the streets around the normal office closing time an enormous number of people to overburden the already burdened transport and traffic system around the bridges and the banks of the Thames. There are other methods of dealing with the matter, some of them rather lone-distance and tardy, which are open to public authorities of various kinds but which seem to me to be inadequately used.
I hope that in surveying the frightful problem which is being created here the Government will, if it is not too late, seek by any means in their power to interfere and to stop it. So far as we are concerned to-day, we can say no more than that if industrial firms are seeking the advantages of this Bill they should be required to have regard to town planning and traffic needs in the centre of London, and the Government should seek to induce them to take their office buildings with their industrial undertakings into the development areas. That is the purpose, perhaps rather clumsily put in the Amendments themselves, of Amendments Nos. 2 and 12. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 1 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Wilmot of Selmeston.)
4.5 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am grateful for what the noble Lord has said. To be quite frank, I had no idea that Amendments Nos. 2 and 12 were proposed to be taken together because they are quite different in their effect. Amendment No. 2, which is the Amendment in the noble Lord's name proposing a new clause, is a very drastic proposal indeed and goes far beyond anything that has been suggested in another place. What I had intended to do was to thank the noble Lord for what I felt was a genuine effort to help our intentions to push on more vigorously with the process
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of steering industry into the development areas; but to say at greater length than I shall now do (because it appears no longer to be necessary), that to accept Amendment No. 2 would, in our view, not have the effect which it is desired to have, because we think that the amount of irritation and resentment which it would create would hinder the co-operation of industry in carrying out our purpose. It must be remembered that you can take a horse to the water but you cannot make it drink. It seems to me that the proposed new clause after Clause 1 was based on the assumption that horses are much more thirsty than they really are.
But I am surprised and relieved to find that the noble Lord is really talking about Amendment No. 12, which is another Amendment which was proposed in another place and, after some discussion, negatived without a Division—that is, to apply the procedure of industrial development certificates to offices as well as to factory buildings and extensions. I feel a little mean as I had just asked my noble friend Lord St. Oswald to deal with this Amendment at the end of the debate, but now I find that it would obviously be more convenient if I dealt with it myself.
Of course we all agree that the problem of congested offices is most serious, but I think it is a matter for town planning, rather than for employment. It may be a good and desirable thing that offices should not be permitted to congregate in the centre of London but that they should be required to go somewhere, perhaps like Kew, instead. That is most important from a planning point of view, but it is not important from an employment point of view because employment at Kew is just as full as it is in London; and if you insisted on the issue of an industrial development certificate for every office in the hope of persuading some offices to go to development areas, the times when you would strike lucky would be so rare that it really would not be worth the immense increase in administrative labour and staff which would be involved. After all, offices are not usually built like a factory, for some particular purpose, to make some particular product; they are usually built in huge blocks, for letting to whoever will take them.

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I know that there are some cases such as one that was mentioned in another place—the offices of the Egg Marketing Board, where it was admitted by my honourable friend the Parliamentary Secretary in another place that it probably would have been better had we been able to persuade those concerned to build that particular block of offices in some development area. But we do not think that this is really relevant to the purpose of this Bill; we think that it is a town planning matter and that it would not be right to give the Board of Trade the enormous bureaucratic power to inquire into the purpose of every block of offices built in the country, not for the purpose of town planning, which is the duty of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and local authorities, but from the point of view of the distribution of industry and local employment.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: I om sorry to interrupt the noble Earl, as he has been so kind to my amateur status in the drafting of this Amendment, but the three cases I have cited are not just offices to let. They are offices constructed by a particular industry, in each case likely to require development facilities under the Bill; and this is an attempt to get them to house their staffs in proximity to their establishments in the development areas, rather than in the centre of the City of Westminster.
LORD SHEPHERD: The noble Earl has said that these two proposed clauses were not exactly relevant to the Bill, but in my judgment they are.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I believe that the first is; and I was not objecting to the second on the grounds of irrelevance but was merely saying that it was more a matter for town planning consideration than for the pursuance of our local employment policy.
LORD SHEPHERD: I accept that, but I feel that it is particularly relevant. As I see it, we in this country ought to aim at a proper distribution of industry and labour. There is now a tendency, I think a regrettable one, for administrative control of industry to become centred more and more in London, with the machinery and the factories on the outskirts or in other parts of the country.
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Let us recognise that Scotland and Wales and places like Yorkshire can produce just as good office staff material as does London; and I feel that we should try to provide employment of that type for suitable people in the development areas. Frankly, I have always wondered why these large companies who put up these colossal buildings, and companies who occupy them on rent, do so, when they must consider the cost of a typist sitting operating a typewriter. I believe it is a point that this country and industry should really consider, because all this tremendous cost of administration in London is on the back of industry. It affects even our export prices, let alone our home market prices.
I feel that we should endeavour, as my noble friend and myself have sought, to bring into this Bill a provision whereby office work should be distributed around the country and not be localised in London. We have a very great social problem. The noble Lord, Lord Beveridge has referred to strap-hanging and its effect on the nervous system. Any noble Lord who travels on suburban trains and realises the misery and lack of dignity involved will know that it is a very great social problem. Her Majesty's Government can administer the Town and Country Planning Act but in the judgment of many of us they have not done so. We have created and are creating now a situation where there is and will be no joy and no dignity in either working or living in London.
LORD STONHAM: I endorse what both my noble friends have said on this matter. If I understood the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, aright when he said that this was important from the planning point of view but not from the employment point of view, he was, in my opinion, wholly "off the beam".
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I was referring to Amendment No. 12 which was actually spoken to by the noble Lord. Had he spoken to Amendment No. 2, as I thought he was doing, I would not have said it was at all irrelevant.
LORD STONHAM: Possibly I was under a misapprehension in thinking that we were considering both.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: It is an entirely new idea to-day that we should do so, but I am delighted to save time by discussing the two Amendments together.
LORD STONHAM: When I say I believe that the noble Earl is very much "off the beam" in making his statement, I mean that I consider he is wrong in thinking this is not an important issue from the employment point of view; because it is extremely important from that viewpoint. If, as my noble friend Lord Wilmot of Selmeston has said, within one mile of this House office blocks are being put up which will employ from ten to twenty thousand people, it is very much a matter of employment. I myself have noticed office workers coming into London. I travel from Surrey, and I see office workers coming from as far as Guildford every day and then going home again at night, travelling the same distance—something like thirty miles each day; and in each direction out of London the same thing happens. Many come still greater distances We tap an enormous area to bring people into London, in my view quite unnecessarily. A number of firms, such as insurance companies, have seen the light in this matter and established their headquarters some way out in the Home Counties.
I believe that we ought to be considering this question. Whether the office blocks are in connection with a manufacturing or production firm, or whether they are not, we should be planning not merely from the town planning aspect but from the employment aspect also, so that there can be greater diversity of employment in other areas, not only in development areas. There are other districts where, within my own knowledge, there are employment problems. I have four small factories in different areas, fairly widely spread apart, and it is a curious fact that different employment problems exist in the different areas. In some cases it is fairly simple to get one type of labour whereas in other cases that type of labour is short. One often finds, particularly in areas of heavy industry, that opportunities for the employment of women are lacking. This is, therefore, important from the planning point of view.
To touch for a moment on the social consequences of this extraordinary concentration
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in cities like London, they are appalling and can lead to break down in time of crisis. The firm mentioned by my noble friend Lord Wilmot of Selmeston, the Shell Company, like many others when there was the threat of a railway strike recently, made plans for getting staff into London. They did so very efficiently, as one might expect, arranging for parking for those coming in with cars; and for those who could not come by car there were arrangements for sleeping. All that was done in theory, but when that company found out just how many people they had to cater for they decided that only the senior people and those immediately next in importance could be provided for. Juniors, typists and secretaries were told that they would have the time off. They were told, "You will have to stay home; we cannot possibly cater for you here." In other words, business, though it certainly would not have been brought to a standstill, would have been very greatly reduced so far as numbers of staff were concerned. It is really fantastic nonsense that we should go on providing these facilities without making an attempt to get at least some sense into the situation. There are people available in other areas to staff these firms. The firms would be able to build their offices more cheaply and to staff them at less cost. And indirectly they would be able to make an important contribution to what has become a very great social and economic problem—this draining into and out of London, with many people spending perhaps fifteen years of their working life getting to and from work.
4.20 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am most grateful for what the noble Lord has said. I do not want there to be any misunderstanding about the question of irrelevance, and I certainly would not make any point about the drafting of this clause. I am sure I could not have drafted it nearly so well myself as the noble Lord has done. I want only to point out, for the sake of the Record, that this clause, as drafted, would severely limit the opportunities which private owners enjoy of selling their premises. For example, the owner of a factory in Plymouth who wanted for some good reason to sell his factory might find that prospective purchasers were pre-

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vented by this clause from buying, and he would therefore be deprived of much of the value of his property. That is the kind of thing that would create resentment and opposition in industry and would make it less likely that industry would co-operate in our purpose. If the Board operated the clause vigorously, they might have to issue many hundreds of statutory instruments in every part of the country, and every industrialist and business would be the potential subject of one; and with each change in the list of development districts, every statutory instrument might have to be revoked and replaced with a new one.
The clause as it stands presupposes that the Board will be capable of forming an opinion that a particular undertaking is likely to require new premises within two years, and I find it difficult to see how the Board could obtain sufficient information about a particular undertaking on which to base such an opinion. It would be possible for the Board to form the opinion that a particular kind of industry—say, machine-tool making as a whole—was on the upgrade and was going to expand a lot within two years; but it would hardly be possible to anticipate that a firm, ABC Limited, machine tool makers, would require new premises within that period.
All your Lordships who have spoken have spoken not about factories but only about offices. I agree with a great deal of what the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has said. All I would suggest to him is this. How many of these new factories he is talking about as being built in London and employing 20,000 people, could we get to go to Scotland or Tyneside?
LORD STONHAM: We could try.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Really, my Lords! How could we possibly say that a huge office building, employing 20,000 people engaged in all kinds of businesses over London, should go to Lanarkshire or Tyneside? Of course it would be absurd. There are cases—I mentioned the Egg Marketing Board—of which it could be said they ought to go to the periphery 30 miles away; but that is a question of town planning and not of distribution of industry for the development areas.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: If I may be permitted a few more words, they would be to ask the noble Earl whether he will seek to persuade the Minister to see whether he can find a way to do what we have been urging should be done. I am extremely sorry that I have failed to get the noble Earl to understand the point here. The reason why I asked your Lordships to consider these two clauses together was Ito try to avoid the charges which the noble Earl has made: that this power of direction could be applied to everybody and would be oppressive and foolish. Of course it would be if it were so used. The whole intention is to get the clerical staff to move with the productive undertaking that is going to the development area. These offices are not offices of miscellaneous firms together in one big office building; these are office buildings which are built for one particular firm.
There is no reason that I can see why Vickers should need a huge skyscraper on Millbank. Their main business is in industrial centres in various parts of England. Our own experience of industry has shown that we do not need a vast staff in the centre of London. I happen to be chairman of a group of companies employing in Yorkshire and thereabouts some 30,000 people. All the clerical work is done adjacent to the factories, and in London there is only a small group of directors and their immediate staff—not more than a dozen people—who are quite able by this means to administer the business. I am certain that the staffs in these great prestige-making skyscrapers, which will cause such enormous upheaval and trouble in the years to come, and traffic dislocation far worse than the existing dislocation and traffic problem of this City, could m most cases be housed elsewhere and could very profitably be adjacent to their industrial buildings.
The purpose of these rather clumsy Amendments was to get into this Bill powers so that the Board of Trade, knowing that a company was contemplating using the facilities provided to go into an industrial area, could seek to persuade them, and if necessary insist, that the clerical staffs associated with them should not be housed in the centre of London. I ask the noble Earl to put this point to the Minister and to find out whether something cannot be done in

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that direction. It is not true that the Board of Trade do not know. I am assured, by those who know from the inside how these things work, that they get to know about two years before a development actually takes place, because there are all sorts of preliminary negotiations and inquiries before a firm will contemplate a new development in a different area. It is when the Board of Trade begin to learn about these things that they should start to use their influence and persuasion, reinforced by the statutory powers, to try to bring about this situation. I hope that the noble Earl will at any rate be able to do that.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Of course, we do our best—and shall continue to do so—to persuade the office staff to move with the factory into the development areas. All I have said is that the procedure of an industrial development certificate is not a very good method for doing this, simply because the pattern of office building—huge buildings containing the offices of hundreds of firms—is not the same as the pattern of industry; and the application of industrial development certificates to offices would not be the most appropriate method of trying to force them to go. Certainly we do all we can to encourage the erection of more office buildings in development areas.
LORD CROOK: My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Earl, but one thing he said earlier worries me; that was, his reference to this being entirely a planning matter, or mainly a planning matter. Surely that is going back on the whole concept which the Government had immediately following the war in respect of its own staffs, for instance. It was not a planning matter that the Ministry of National Insurance was put in Newcastle. It was put there because it got buildings out of London. It got a limited number out of London; it enabled a reservoir of 8,000 temporary workers to be employed in a given period where a reservoir of workers existed. The same thing applied when the Ministry of Food was placed at Guildford (another Ministry has now taken over there), and when the Ministry of Aviation and others were taken to Chessington, on the Kingston by-pass. They were not planning proposals. That
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was done for the dispersal of His Majesty's Civil Service (as it then was) and was part of a deliberate plan. If necessary, there was planning consent for housing the reservoirs of labour and to try to ensure that there was a greater spread of it. I am worried about the suggestion that we are going back after this number of years to the idea that this is a planning matter and not an employment matter.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: So far as the location of Government offices is concerned, I think I should be prepared to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Crook, and to say that we shall certainly bear in mind the need for locating as many new Government offices and Government staffs as may be practicable in the development areas: but that is not quite the same thing as controlling all privately built offices throughout the country by means of industrial development certificates. However, we appreciate the noble Lord's point, and I can assure him that there is certainly no change of attitude on that. We do intend, and hope, to have more Government staffs located in areas of higher unemployment.
LORD CROOK: While thanking the noble Earl, I was not suggesting that more Government staffs should be moved out. What I was pointing out was that the Government themselves started to embark upon this policy in respect of the Civil Service at the end of the war. I understood that they were going to do the same in respect of industry, but what we are doing to-day is not applying the same kind of thing to industry. What I am suggesting is not so much that we should do more about the Civil Service, which had to face a good deal of dislocation as a result of the Government's policy, but that we should try to see that industry follows the Government's example.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clauses 2 to 7 agreed to.
Clause 8 [The Industrial Estates Management Corporations]:
4.32 p.m.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON moved to leave out Clause 8. The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to seek to prevent the abolition of the existing industrial development

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corporations which are set out in the Second Schedule. They are the North Eastern Trading Estates Limited, the Wales and Monmouthshire Industrial Estates Limited, The West Cumberland Industrial Development Company Limited, the Scottish Industrial Estates Limited and the North Western Industrial Estates Limited. That group of corporate bodies is the group that has been operating the Distribution of Industry Acts of 1945 to 1958 up till now.
Now, most surprisingly, in spite of the splendid work that these development corporations have done and in spite of the remarkable value of their accumulated experience, this Bill—and this is one of the major objections to it, in my view—sweeps them away and sets up in their stead management bodies which are just estate managers: bodies which exercise an entirely different function from that of the corporations which are being abolished. I found that I agreed entirely with the very interesting and informed speech of the noble Lord, Lord Bilsland, on the last occasion when he described the abolition of these bodies and the setting up of these Management Corporations as "a major blunder". He said this in the light of his long experience and splendid service to Scotland as chairman (as I believe he is still) of one of the bodies which is being abolished—the Scottish Industrial Estates Limited. He described the work which they had done over the last ten or fifteen years, and he pointed out, as I do again, that a group of people in the Board of Trade expert on property management and estate management will perform an entirely different function from that which has hitherto been performed by these industrial development companies in the development areas.
Their major function has been to attract industry to these areas. They have consisted of people who themselves are industrialists in the areas; who know the nature of the population, its skills and its character; who know the natural facilities of the areas; who are respected as successful people in the areas; and who have been able, by their influence and their prestige, to attract other industries into those areas. I have personal knowledge of The West Cumberland Industrial Development Company Limited, because I am concerned with an
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industry that went into one of these areas; and through that corporation we have had enormous help in every way. In Scotland, the body which the noble Lord, Lord Bilsland, has directed with such distinction is even more important to the industries; and there is no hope of getting anything like such a service from this group of special civil servants who will run the estate as an estate from the Board of Trade.
The purpose of the Amendment is to delete the clause in this Bill which replaces these valuable and established bodies with this bureaucratic control. Here, I think—at least, I hope—the drafting is not at fault: and with this Amendment, if it is successful, go a large number of the other Amendments in my name. They are purely consequential, because many things that arise out of this great change will not be necessary if we leave the conduct of this business in the hands of those who have so ably performed it in the past. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 8.—(Lord Wilmot of Selmeston.)
LORD LAWSON: I am glad my noble friend has drawn attention to the words of the noble Lord, Lord Bilsland, in the Second Reading debate. I should have thought the Government would have treated that opinion so seriously that they would have had second thoughts on the action they proposed to take. So far as I am concerned, it is very difficult to understand the abandonment of these estate committees, as they are generally called. I live close to one of these estates. Everybody knows what the County of Durham was like during the time of the depression. It was one of the most lamentable experiences that any man could go through during his lifetime. When you talk about a depressed area, there are people who think that it was a matter of the third-rate, or maybe the second-rate, unemployed; but I daresay that in the early stages there were very good men who thought that they were absolutely indispensable. But I am sorry to say that I lived to see the best craftsmen in a whole area made idle—so long idle that clothes were sent from all parts of the kingdom. They came my way to a house which eventually was practically packed with clothes—and a good deal of it was due to the kindness to the people of this great city.

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I cannot understand why the Government have done this thing. There was a swamp close to where I lived which was a real eyesore. Stage by stage the workers' representatives came together. I was present at some very turbulent meetings in Newcastle once or twice when Lord Ridley was present; but by and by we got the thing into shape. The ablest amongst the workers' leaders in the various crafts and industries came together, with the result that, with State help, this great swamp was drained, and factories were built on the site where now thousands of men, women and youngsters go to work. Now the Government have taken the chief of this trading estate, Mr. Sadler Forster, and made him head of the national organisation. Mr. Forster is an able man (he and I are good friends), but he has been thought worthy of selection not only because of his ability but also because of the help he got from the workers' leaders on that committee. It would be invidious to mention any of them; they all gave themselves to this work and have given proof of their good citizenship.
It is a strange thing that, though the Conservatives are always asking the workers to co-operate with them, when leaders among the workers in a great area like this have helped to build up a great estate, then they are bidden goodbye, as though the work they have done is of no account. I should have thought that the Government would have wished to co-operate with these men. I cannot understand why the Government have done this. The statement made by the noble Lord, Lord Bilsland, which was mentioned by my noble friend, was a devastating statement. So far as I know, no one has attempted to answer it. Will the noble Earl please give an answer, if not to my noble friend, then at least to Lord Bilsland's statement, that this is a major blunder? That is a very serious statement for a supporter of the Government to make.
Before I sit down, perhaps I shall be allowed to reflect a little. This is an age in which great changes come, due to people about whom we know nothing. In the first Industrial Revolution, men like Stephenson and the people who financed great industries, the men who took advantage of this new social development, were known characters.
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Sometimes we said rude words about them, but they were great characters and in many respects they did a fine work. But in this new era great changes are taking place which are being made by men whose names we do not know. Yet here, when there is an opportunity for men who are known and who have given great service in their day, the Government are turning their backs upon them.
I think that this is the centre of our case. The Government are moving the seat of government away from the workers on these estates, a serious matter in this day and generation. There has been hardly a whisper of trouble in these industrial estates. I know that in my own Team Valley Estate, for which Mr. Forster is Secretary, there has been no trouble at all. I think that this is due mainly to the fact that the mass of workers know that this workers' leader, that employer or other outstanding citizen has given himself to the task and has earned their respect. Yet now the Government are turning their backs on people of this description and moving the government of these trading estates into the blue so far as the mass of workers are concerned. The noble Earl has to answer a very difficult case. I hope that, if he does not answer my noble friend and myself he will at least answer the noble Lord, Lord Bilsland.
LORD STONHAM: This seems to be a case of the Government insisting on returning to London office workers who are working a long way from the city. There must be very compelling reasons, far greater than the idea of administrative tidiness on paper, for destroying (because that is what it means) all that has been done in these industrial estates over the last fourteen or fifteen years. I notice that one of them is the Wales and Monmouthshire Industrial Estates Limited and that in the Bill the Government have taken the tremendous risk of printing these words:
"For the purpose of this subsection Monmouthshire shall be deemed to be part of Wales."
The area is precisely the same. Similarly, the area to be administered by the Scottish Management Corporation must be the same as that managed by the Scottish Industrial Estates Limited. The three English estates are going to be administered by one Management Corporation.

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Unlike my noble friend Lord Lawson, I do not claim to have intimate and continuous association with these estates, but I have some knowledge of the Wales and Monmouthshire estates. I can recall, in 1946 and 1947, visiting the estates at Bridgend, Glamorgan, and other places. Bridgend, if I remember correctly, was a former shell-filling factory, and during my visit of from two to three days I was astonished and pleased to see the great enthusiasm of officials in trying to get industries suited to the building to go there. They had a great assortment of them, not merely large-scale industries but smaller businesses as well. And not all of them, in fact, succeeded: they had to get other people, and premises changed hands. All this requires not only enthusiasm but an intimate knowledge of the circumstances on the spot and a knowledge of the kind of people to approach to come and take the premises.
It requires a relationship, for example, with the local Press. I happen to be a director of two small newspapers in South Wales, and that is the kind of problem, of employment and getting light industries into the place, that is cropping up the whole time. In other words, it is an intimate and immediate local problem. For example, they criticise in one area the still nationalised steel company of Richard Thomas and Baldwins for having their new factory at Newport instead of at Swansea or at some other place in the valleys. Those are the kind of problems which are meat and drink and the very life of those areas; and they are the kind of problems with which the people in the industrial estate companies have been dealing for many years and which they understand.
No Government, of whatever political colour, would introduce a Bill of this kind and bring to an end these five trading estates, which it must be recognised have a splendid record, without reasons which they think are good and sufficient. But I think we should be told what those reasons are and that, in particular, we should have answers to the questions: Is the staff going to be less? Is the cost going to be less? Is the work going to be carried on more effectively? Does it mean that with the three Management Corporations instead of the five industrial estates we shall get empty
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premises filled more quickly? Does it mean that it will be easier, through the central administration, to get factories built more quickly in the areas where we want them? To that extent, are the powers of these industrial estates insufficient? We should have answers to all these questions, and, in particular, we should have a complete answer on the question of Wales and Monmouthshire, where the same area is dealt with and the Bill merely puts in another body with a different name, and also in the case of the Scottish Industrial Estates. We should be told all those facts and, in addition, how matters are going to be better under the new régime than under the old.
4.54 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, and to the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, for the well justified tributes which they have paid to the work which has been done by the industrial estates companies. The noble Lord, Lord Lawson, will remember no doubt that three of these were set up by the Special Areas (Amendment) Act, 1937. I remember the Scottish company only last year celebrating its coming of age. Indeed, I think there was a fourth, one of the English companies besides the Teme Valley, before the war, and only one of the five which is later in origin. The Government are grateful to the chairmen and staff of these companies for the admirable work they have done.
I was glad that the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, mentioned the Team Valley Estate—to which I think he was referring in his area—and the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, mentioned a similar one in South Wales. However, I do not know that either of them quite come up to the excellence of the very fine estate in Dundee, which is perhaps the best in the country. I certainly do not anticipate any change in the management there, and I hope, too, that there will not be any change in the other cases. In Scotland and Wales, the area will still be the same, and I should like to assure the noble Lords, Lord Lawson and Lord Stonham, that the headquarters of the English Management Corporation will be at Newcastle, on Tyneside. It is not a question of moving the offices to London, but, on the contrary, of moving them to Newcastle. We have the deepest

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gratitude for the work that has been done by all these estate companies, and, I should like to emphasise that it is not a replacement of the companies by the corporations but rather a transformation.
In view of the importance which your Lordships attach to this matter I am sure you will forgive me if I try to make not, I hope, a long, but a careful statement of the reasons why we think that in modern circumstances the Act will work better if this is done. We feel that the abolition of the concept of development areas and the substitution of development districts under this Bill requires a change in the nature of the bodies which are to carry out the Board's policy. The estate companies have been a valuable administrative instrument of the distribution of industry policy and they have also performed a valuable missionary function on behalf of their respective areas. But we feel that, with flexibility in the list of places to which the Government's powers will now apply, with the inclusion of a number of relatively small and scattered places, and with the need to try to steer industry to those districts where it is most needed—places which may change from year to year—the structure and functions of the estate companies are no longer so appropriate as that of the corporations into which we propose to transform them, because essentially what is required is a national rather than a regional basis. As I have already said, it is the same thing in Scotland and Wales, but in England it means transforming three into one.
An organisation is therefore proposed in the Bill which will ensure that the existing estates continue to be properly managed. Whilst it will also be able to undertake the management of new and possibly scattered industrial property, it will have no concern with the administration of the policy of local employment which will be the responsibility of the Government—that is, of the Board of Trade. What is proposed in establishing these three statutory Management Corporations in England, Scotland and Wales is that each one will have five members, including an industrialist, a trade unionist and an expert in accountancy, building or estate management.
I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, mentioned the chairman of the Tyneside Corporation, who is now to
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become the chairman of the English Management Corporation; and in the same way Sir Robert Maclean, the chairman of the former Scottish Estate Company, will carry on as chairman of the Scottish Management Corporation
LORD LAWSON: I do not wish to interrupt the noble Earl, but will he tell us why it is necessary to have a new Bill to do this?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I think that this particular change would require legislation because the industrial estate companies were set up by Act of Parliament. But this is part of a Bill whose purpose is to bring up to date the whole of our development areas' and distribution of industries' legislation The two functions of managing the Government's industrial property and administering the Government's policy on local employment should, we think, now be kept separate.
As my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade explained in another place, the development councils will continue to do their proper job of "selling" their respective areas—as my noble friend Lord Polwarth expressed it the other day, "getting up a tree and hollering". They cap do this by whatever means their constitution allows, including spending money on advertising. But we think it would be inappropriate for Government agents to advertise particular parts of Great Britain—still more to spend money on doing so. We want, so far as the Government and its agents are concerned, to be completely impartial as between one development district and another. The estate companies are, and the Corporations will be, concerned only with one of the inducements offered by the Bill, namely, factory building. They will have no concern with building grants or financial assistance, which is administered by the Board of Trade, and they are therefore not the most suitable bodies, in our view, to support the Government's policy as a whole, but only to concern themselves with the management and building of the Government's property.
The Amendment involves certain minor difficulties. It is usual for the Government to operate through statutory corporations, whose functions are

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defined in the Statute creating them, and not through limited companies whose power depends on their memorandum and articles, like, for instance, B.E.A. and B.O.A.C., or the Film Corporation. In any case, although it would be possible in this Bill to leave the Scottish and Welsh estate companies unchanged, some change would have to be made for England, because there you have three companies, each operating in certain regions only—the North-Eeast, West Cumberland and Merseyside. Now that you are going to have development districts scattered round the whole country, and while it would no doubt be possible to alter the memoranda and articles of the three companies so that between them they covered the whole country, this would be a very clumsy procedure—to say, for instance, that the Tyneside Estate Company shall look after all development districts in one part of England—and it is better to have a single Management Corporation.
In the Second Reading debate I did my best to reply to this matter which was raised by a number of noble Lords. I quoted at some length what had been said by my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade in another place in Committee. I do not want to repeat what I have already quoted, but I think I made it clear that my right honourable friend is grateful, as indeed are the Government as a whole, to the industrial estate companies. He does not want to displace them. He wants to continue those elements in them which are appropriate to the developing and changing industrial situation. I do not think it ought to be considered by anybody that this proposed change will be a deterioration, either from the point of view of management or from the point of view of advertisement, and certainly not in the Government's appreciation of the excellent work which has been done by the estate companies in the past, and which I am glad has been referred to in such deservedly high terms by those of your Lordships who have spoken.
5.4 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: I am sure the Committee are grateful to the noble Earl for his full and careful statement in reply to the powerful speeches which were made by my noble friends Lord
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Lawson, Lord Stonham and Lord Wilmot of Selmeston. In the Second Reading, the noble Earl made the point that no change of policy was represented in this Bill. In this Committee stage we have tried to show that there is a change of policy in regard to timing. In regard to the Management Corporations there is, in our view, a change of policy. The noble Lord, Lord Bilsland, was most emphatic about the change. The old authorities were missionaries. They went out to attract industry to the development areas, but now that is to be stopped. In future it is to be left to the Board of Trade. I have no reason to be critical of civil servants, but they must always work by rule of thumb. One can also say that they are limited so far as entertainment is concerned. We all know that entertainment plays a big part in trying to sell a project. I am sure the Committee will realise that if you are to get firms to go to these development areas the whole project has to be "sold," and I do not believe that the Civil Service or the Board of Trade are capable of carrying out that function. I think it is quite a wrong action to destroy all the experience that has been gained during the last fourteen years. For that reason I hope my noble friend will press this Amendment to a Division.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: I think we must. In spite of the careful statement made by the noble Earl, he failed to convince me, and I think many other noble Lords, as to any advantage which comes from making this change. He tried to repel charges that there were disadvantages, but he showed us no advantages at all. If your Lordships will forgive me, I should like to say that I have three times, in three different capacities, had experience of intimate relations with the old West Cumberland Development Corporation: first, in steering industry into their area before the war; afterwards, as Minister of Supply, in dealing with the extremely difficult problem of the dismantling of the Shell factories on the West Coast of Cumberland, when they were no longer wanted for the war; and, finally, in all the intricate arrangements for siting the first atomic energy plants on the Cumberland coast. Enormous help was given to the Government by the West Cumberland Development Corporation, and it could

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not have been done by a body such as is now being set up.
The value of its guidance, its advice and its counsel, was that it consisted of men who had spent their lives in the area, who had the knowledge and commanded the confidence of the workers who were being displaced by the fundamental changes which came about in that area at the end of the war. That area has been completely transformed, largely under the skilled direction of the West Cumberland Development Corporation. One of its enormous advantages was that it was independent of the Board of Trade. Therefore it was able to act as an intermediary between the Ministry of Supply, the local interests and the Board of Trade, who all had different and sometimes conflicting interests which had to be harmonised in order to bring about the revolution which the end of the war meant for this area. I cannot see that a Board of Trade department, even though it is located in Newcastle, can ever supply the sort of thing that was done on that occasion.
This area is now a most prosperous one. I remember well that, in the old days of the Distressed Areas Commission, unemployment in the town of
Clause 8 agreed to.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON, had given Notice of an Amendment to leave out Clause 9. The noble
Maryport was 80 per cent., and there was hardly a man under the age of 30 who had ever done a day's work. That is a thing almost of the forgotten past, due to the unselfish and self-sacrificing devotion of industrialists and workers' leaders in that area. The Board of Trade is bound to operate on a much narrower field. It is bound to have uniform application of its rules to all parts, and all the flexibility, all the human contacts and all the special knowledge of the people who have worked there all their lives is going to be lost. The development councils are not the same thing. They are the sort of body that seaside towns have to persuade people to go on the pier. It has not the kind of fundamental understanding of the industry of the area which we are deliberately throwing away, for reasons which I still fail to understand. So, at this last minute, I would ask the noble Earl if he cannot see his way to try to bridge the gap which still exists between the value of what has been and the problematical value of the organisation they now insist on setting up.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 18; Not-Contents, 41.

CONTENTS

Burden, L. [Teller.]

Macpherson of Drumochter, L.

Stonham, L.

Crook, L.

Pethick-Lawrence, L.

Taylor, L.

Grantchester, L.

Rea, L.

Uvedale of North End, L.

Latham, L.

Shepherd, L.

Williams, L.

Lawson, L.

Simon, V.

Wilmot of Selmeston, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Stansgate, V.

Wise, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Crookshank, V.

Merrivale, L.

Albemarle, E.

Derwent, L.

Mersey, V.

Arran, E.

Dundee, E.

Newall, L.

Auckland, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Northesk, E.

Bathurst, E.

Ferrers, E.

Onslow, E. [Teller.]

Birdwood, L.

Grenfell, L.

Robins, L.

Bossom, L.

Hampton, L.

St. Aldwyn, E. [Teller.]

Bridgeman, V.

Hastings, L.

St. Oswald, L.

Cholmondeley, M.

Hawke, L.

Saltoun, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Home, E. (L. President.)

Soulbury, V.

Colyton, L.

Horsbrugh, B.

Spens, L.

Conesford, L.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Teviot, L.

Cork and Orrery, E.

Jellicoe, E.

Torrington, V.

Cottesloe, L.

MacAndrew, L.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

Lord said: I do not propose to move this Amendment. This one, and those that follow, are consequential. Having failed to persuade you to delete Clause 8, I do not propose to move the following Amendments.
Clauses 9 to 12 agreed to.
5.20 p.m.
LORD BURDEN LORD BURDEN moved, after Clause 12 to insert the following new clause:
Compensation of employees of industrial estate companies
".—(1) Every existing officer who suffers loss of employment or loss or diminution of emoluments (including pension and superannuation rights) which is attributable to the vesting in a Management Corporation of the property rights and liabilities of a company to which section twelve of this Act applies shall be entitled to have his case considered for the payment of compensation by that Management Corporation.
(2) The compensation to which an existing officer is entitled under this section shall be determined in accordance with the provisions of the Schedule to the Local Government (Compensation) Regulations, 1948, and subject to the provisions of this section those regulations shall apply accordingly with any modifications Mach the Minister of Housing and Local Government may by order consider it necessary or expedient to make for the purpose of the application of those regulations to compensation under this Act.
(3) If after the passing of this Act regulations relating to compensation payable to officers and servants of local authorities come into operation the Minister of Housing and Local Government may by order amend the provisions of this section by substituting such regulations for the Local Government (Compensation) Regulations, 1948, and by making such consequential amendments to this section as he may consider necessary.
(4) An order under this section shall be made by statutory instrument and shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution by either House of Parliament.
(5) For the purposes of this section and of the Local Government (Compensation) Regulations, 1948, as applied by this section "existing officer" means the holder of any place situation or employment in the service of a company to which section twelve of this Act applies on such elate or dates as the Minister of Housing and Local Government may by order specify."
The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name on the Marshalled List. The purpose of this Amendment is clearly defined in its first subsection. I would stress the fact that compensation is asked for only when the employee suffers loss attributable to the vesting in a Management Corporation of the property, rights and liabilities of a company to which Clause 12 applies. My Amendment does not in any other manner alter the normal relationship of employer and employed. It does not seek to establish a new condition of employment. It simply means that the new Management Corporations, on the transfer to them of the industrial estate companies, should continue to employ the staff of the estate
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companies or, if any of them are redundant, should compensate them for loss of office.
With all respect, I submit that this is a reasonable and a just claim. I am seeking nothing new by way of legislation. You will remember that it is quite a common practice for provision to be made for the compensation of officers and servants of a public body or organisation when it is being wound up, or the functions of which are going to be transferred elsewhere. My personal experience of compensation goes back to the Railways Act, 1921, which, as your Lordships will be aware, amalgamated some 112 separate railway companies into four groups, and compensation provisions for loss of office were accepted then by the group of companies—in other words, by private enterprise.
Passing to another field, that of local government, I would say that the most recent example of the provision of compensation in the conditions which I have already indicated, is in Section 60 of the Local Government Act, 1958. Again, passing to a field of mixed and public employment, I would point out that almost every order made under the Water Act, 1945, dealing with the transfer of a water undertaking, also includes provision for such compensation. Under the Bill which your Lordships are now considering, the assets and liabilities of the companies listed in the Second Schedule to the Bill are to vest in the appropriate Management Corporation. These assets and liabilities would include such rights and obligations of the companies in relation to their employees as are comprised in a service agreement with those employees.
Clearly, however, this would not necessarily afford the employees satisfactory compensation rights. Compensation would not be paid by an estate company in the normal course of business; it is only when there is the problem of a transfer of functions from the estate company, or from one body to another public body, by Act of Parliament, that the question of compensation can arise. Further, of course, there are cases where no service agreements exist—not all salaried employees have the advantage of a service agreement. Then there are cases where perhaps it was understood that the person concerned would be

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taken on for a limited period or on a terminal basis. But again I would submit that, even if there are a few cases of that kind, this Bill, if and when it becomes an Act, will alter materially the position of those employees because, save for misconduct or incompetence, most, if not all, of them would have continued in the service for a considerable time.
I am aware that the Bill provides for the new Corporations to accept existing liabilities as to superannuation and pension rights. So far as it goes, that is satisfactory; but I would beg your Lordships to note that in another place the President of the Board of Trade expressed the hope—only expressed the hope—that the new Corporations will do all that they can to employ the existing staffs of the estate companies. But expressing a hope like that implies that there is a possibility that when these new Management Corporations are set up, some of the existing staffs will be found redundant. Are we then, therefore, to expect that a Bill designed to bring employment to an area will have the paradoxical result, as the first fruits of its coming into operation, that it will throw men and women already in employment out of employment? Should these fears be groundless, then I submit, with all respect, that the Amendment can do no harm. On the other hand, if Mr. Maudling, is right, by implication at any rate, and some of the staff are not required then, if they are not taken over in the first transitional stage (and I know it has been argued that they will all go over), or even if they are taken over and then dispensed with, I submit that they are entitled to the protection which I am asking your Lordships to provide for them.
What I am asking is based on precedent, and the precedents of compensation in the instances which I have indicated—and I could give scores of others—are based on justice, humanity and fair play. These precedents therefore compel me to press the Minister most strongly to accept my Amendment, which is put forward at the instance of the largest organisation of clerical officers in this country, if not the world—the National Association of Local Government Officers—who are gravely concerned in regard to the future of some of their members. I sincerely trust that the
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noble Earl will be able to accept this Amendment or give me some assurance that something will be done adequately to protect the staff concerned. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 12, insert the said new clause. —(Lord Burden.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The point of principle raised by this Amendment is whether the Board of Trade through its agents, the Management Corporations, should undertake liability to compensate any servant of the estate companies who may suffer loss of employment, or diminution or loss of emoluments attributable to the vesting in the Corporations of the property rights and liabilities of the companies. As the noble Lord, Lord Burden, has mentioned, this matter was raised in another place, where my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade was specifically asked to give an assurance that in the event of any officers becoming redundant he would see that they got adequate compensation. My right honourable friend replied [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 615 (No. 36), col. 686]:
"I do not think I have any power to do that. I do not think that one could give an undertaking of that kind. I am sure that the new corporations will do all they can to employ all the staff of the existing companies. I do not think I can go so far as to make statutory provision for compensation."
The statutory provision in Clause 12 (2) of the Bill is that all property rights and liabilities of each of the companies vest into the appropriate Management Corporation. That means that the rights of each employee of an estate company under his contract of service survive against the Management Corporation. But these rights, of course, are to have a certain salary, title and other conditions of service, including so many months' notice of termination. If, therefore, a Corporation take over a man entitled to six months' notice their only liability would be to give him that length of notice. There are also other provisions regarding pension and superannuation rights.
The Bill does not preserve the prospects of each employee of the companies. I believe that in practice very little change, either in personnel or in functions, is likely as a result of this Bill. In particular, the Scottish and Welsh

541
Corporations will be continuing to do the same work as the companies now do and they will presumably require the same staff. In England, some changes of functions may be inevitable because three companies are being merged in one Corporation; but again, much the same amount of work will have to be done and no doubt in addition to head office at Newcastle there will have to be branch offices in other parts of the country where the Corporation have, or will have, estates to manage. It is to be expected, therefore, that the Corporations will be glad to make use of the experience of the great majority of those who are now employed by the three English estate companies.
While Her Majesty's Government cannot accept an Amendment which would either bind the Corporations in a field in which they must have discretion—that is, of engaging and dismissing staff—or commit the Government to pay compensation in circumstances which would not be at all easy to define legally, this transfer is not likely to involve any serious personal hardship. I can give an assurance to the noble Lord that the attention of the chairmen of the Corporations will be drawn to the representations which he has just made to your Lordships that so far as possible men who had good prospects under the existing arrangements should not find themselves subject to any diminution of their prospects as a result of this Bill.
LORD BURDEN: I cannot say that I am profoundly impressed by the reply, much of which was known to me, both from correspondence and from debate; but I am grateful for the assurance which has been given that the right honourable gentleman the President of the Board of Trade will call the attention of the Chairman of each of the various Corporations to this matter. But I would submit that the noble Earl has not really effectively answered the point that I have made, that these people may have their positions worsened by this transfer. In normal circumstances when that arises as a result of direct legislative changes—and I have cited instances—provision for compensation is made. We are not asking Her Majesty's Government to provide this compensation. We are asking that the new Corporations
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shall do so—and why should they not accept that responsibility for the staff?
I hope that I shall not be accused of being cynical, but the noble Earl, quite rightly, paid tribute to the excellent work of the Chairmen and officers and others of the estate companies. He has done so more than once in the course of this debate, and yet over the heads of a number of them (whether it is likely to materialise or not) hangs the prospect of unemployment after they had devoted their years to doing the work to which the noble Earl has paid tribute. It is no good my pressing this Amendment to a Division, but in the name of common fairness and consideration. I would ask that it shall be the first concern of the noble Earl and the right honourable gentleman the President of the Board of Trade to see that no injustice is done to these people. Will the noble Earl say that?
The noble Earl has said that these people are his agents. I cannot for the life of me see why the noble Earl cannot consider this point against all the precedents I have set before the Committee. The noble Earl said these are the Minister's agents. In the event of any cases arising in which the officers' organisation think injustice has been done, will the Minister undertake to receive representations from the National and Local Government Officers' Association on behalf of the officer concerned?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I do not think it would be right to put into this Bill any statutory provision to this effect, but I will most certainly represent what the noble Lord has said to my right honourable friend and to the Chairmen of the Management Corporations; and I am sure they will always be ready to receive representations from the union to which he has referred.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 13 [Provisions as to compulsory acquisition of land]:
5.41 p.m.
VISCOUNT SIMON VISCOUNT SIMON moved, after subsection (2) to insert:
"() Notwithstanding anything in this Part of this Act, the Board shall not be authorised to acquire compulsorily from undertakers authorised by statute to carry on a dock or harbour undertaking land which is held by the undertakers for the purposes of or for the future development of their dock or harbour undertaking"

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The noble Viscount said: The purpose of this Amendment is, I think, quite plain. It is to protect from compulsory purchase land acquired by dock and harbour authorities for the purpose of their undertaking, even though currently it is not in use. I must declare an interest as vice-president of the Dock and Harbour Authorities' Association whose members take a considerable interest in this matter.
I would readily concede that it is not usually desirable in a Bill of this kind to insert provisions which apply only to particular categories of undertaking, but I hope I may be able to persuade the Committee that this is a case which calls for that treatment. Any forward-looking harbour undertaking must envisage the need at some time, as trade grows, to expand its facilities; and the fact is that the shape of such future development is largely conditioned by engineering and geographical considerations, so that before any question of development arises the undertaking knows the land that it will require for that purpose. If it is wise it will take the opportunity, as opportunity occurs, to acquire that land for further development, even though at the time it has no idea when that development will need to be undertaken. In fact a great many harbour authorities have done that very thing: they have acquired land suitable for future development.
Such land is very often, naturally, adjacent to existing ports or other installations. When the authorities are engaged in trying to encourage employment in the development districts it might well be said, "Well, here is some vacant land lying right alongside a dock or close to a harbour installation. Is that not a good place in which to erect a factory?" But I submit that that would be a very short-sighted view, for this reason. Supposing the land were compulsorily acquired, a factory was erected and fresh employment was found in the district, we should all hope that the fresh employment would be followed by an increase in output and an increase in trade, until the time came when the port facilities proved insufficient for the purposes of the trade and required to be extended. It might then be found that the very land required to
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expand the port facilities was no longer available.
It could be argued that the provisions for compulsory purchase are only permissive; and that, of course, is true. It could be said that objections on the sort of grounds I have outlined can very well be made when a proposal for compulsory purchase is put forward, and if the arguments are valid they would be taken account of. But I confess I do not feel quite so sure that all administrative decisions in matters of this kind are always wise. Particularly where it might appear that there was some conflict between a short-term interest—finding employment for people in the locality—and the long-term interest—the future development of the port—I should be rather afraid that the short-term interest might have an undue influence on an administrative decision.
It is true (the noble Earl may point out to me) that harbour undertakings, along with other statutory undertakings, have some measure of special protection under the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act, 1946, and under the corresponding Act that operates in Scotland. Those are the two Acts which as the Committee are aware, govern the procedure in this Bill. I do not think the Committee would wish me to refer to the safeguards in detail. They are set out in paragraph 10 of Part III of the First Schedule to the respective Acts, and they provide for the right of the undertakers to represent the matter to the Minister—that is, not in this case to the Board of Trade, but to the particular Minister who takes care, if I may put it that way, of their affairs. In the case of harbour undertakings, it would be to the Minister of Transport. In certain circumstances, provided the Minister is satisfied with this and that, he can certify and the compulsory purchase order will not be allowed.
But, in any case, that again places a decision on Ministers, and it seems to me that in a case of this kind there is no reason to add to the burden of worry which falls upon Ministers, and it would be much better for Parliament here and now to decide on this issue what they want done. It is not as though to accept this Amendment would frustrate the aims and objects of this Bill. It is hardly likely that in any development district there will be a shortage of land suitable

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for industrial development; and to sterilise (if I may put it that way) the relatively small amount of land which dock and harbour authorities have bought for possible future development cannot, I feel, really seriously affect the conditions in those development districts.
I realise that this Amendment has been put down rather late, and I apologise to the Committee and to the noble Earl. I think it is perhaps too much to expect that he can accept the Amendment here and now. But I would ask him to discuss this matter with his right honourable friend and to allow me to raise it again on Report. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 25, at end insert the said subsection.—(Viscount Simon.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: It is, of course, quite unnecessary for me to allow my noble friend to raise a matter again on Report. If he thinks it right to do so we shall be delighted to hear what he has to say, and I will naturally discuss the matter, as he has asked me to, with my right honourable friend. But although this is, I think the first time that an Amendment of this kind has been moved, it is not a point which has not already been considered. Representations have been made previously to my right honourable friend in this matter: that land held for port development should be excluded from the compulsory purchase provisions in the Bill. I am afraid that my right honourable friend cannot agree to this suggestion. Should there ever be a case where land held for port development in the indefinite future was judged to fall within the terms of this clause—that is to say, was neglected or unsightly to an extent which was prejudicial to the prospects of increasing employment in an unemployment area—then it would be quite wrong not to have the power to deal with it, subject to the usual statutory safeguards. It is very unlikely, I think, that in trying to develop an area we should ever find it desirable to take over land which would probably be necessary for port facilities as the prosperity of the area increased. The situation could arise, however, and my right honourable friend does not feel that he should deprive himself of the power which, in the last resort, might be found essential for the purposes of this Bill.
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My noble friend has himself already referred to the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation of Procedure) Act, 1946. As my noble friend was kind enough to write to me two days ago intimating that he was going to move this Amendment, I brought a copy of that Act with me. I think he has already referred to the passage to which I wanted to draw your Lordships' attention—I refer to Part III of the First Schedule to the Act, paragraph 9, which states:
"A compulsory purchase order shall, in so far as it authorises the compulsory purchase of land which is the property of a local authority, or has been acquired by statutory undertakers, not being a local authority, for the purposes of their undertaking, or of land belonging to the National Trust … be subject to special parliamentary procedure in any case where an objection to the order has been duly made by the local authority or statutory undertakers or the National Trust, as the case may be, and has not been withdrawn."
As my noble friend said, in the last resort the decision would lie with the Minister, but nothing of this kind could happen without public attention being drawn to it and without the most careful consideration. I am sorry that I cannot go further to meet the purpose of my noble friend, which I thoroughly appreciate. I will, of course, represent what he has said to the President of the Board of Trade; but in view of the consideration which he has already given to it, I cannot, I am afraid, anticipate the likelihood of his making any change in his attitude to this question.
VISCOUNT SIMON: I am very grateful to the noble Earl for saying that he will refer the matter again to his right honourable friend. I think he has applied his mind particularly to the acquisition of land under Clause 5, though I think the same considerations apply to the acquisition of land under Clause 2. As to Clause 5, the clause which relates to derelict or unsightly land, it is true, I suppose, that land alongside a dock which has been acquired by a port authority is very likely to appear rather derelict and unsightly. I have been wondering whether (I do not know whether the noble Earl would put this to his right honourable friend), in a case of that kind, the situation could not be got over in this sort of way: that if the port authority had no obvious likelihood of using the land for quite a long period, they could perhaps effect a lease on favourable terms to the local authority. Because, as I understand

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it, part of the object of Clause 5 is the direct employment of people in the area in cleaning up and turning this land into an amenity. In so far as that is possible, I suppose it could be done, perhaps, on the basis of a 20-year lease, or something like that, if the port could look as far ahead as that. I do not know whether the noble Earl would think of mentioning, that to his right honourable friend. But, having regard to what he has said, I see that it would be no use my pressing this matter further, and I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 13 agreed to.
Clauses 14 to 18 agreed to.
Clause 19:
Minor amendments as to industrial development certificates
(2) Paragraph (a) of the proviso to the principal enactment (under which an industrial development certificate is not required for a building or extension not exceeding a specified size) shall cease to have effect, but such a certificate shall not be required if the industrial floor space to be created by the development in question together with any other industrial floor space created or to be created by any other development relating to the same building or another building in the same group—

(a) which has been carried out, or

(b) for which permission under Part III of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, has been given,

since the commencement of this Act does not exceed five thousand square feet, excluding, where an industrial development certificate has been issued in respect of any such other development, any floor space created or to be created by that development or by a development carried out, or for which permission has been given as aforesaid, before the issue of the certificate.
5.54 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD LORD CONESFORD, moved to leave out subsection (2). The noble Lord said: My purpose in moving this Amendment is to find out what this subsection means. Frankly, I do not know. After reading it several times and working quite hard, I have no confidence whatever that I understand it. The puzzle is not made easier by the fact that the subsection contains 18 lines and about 170 words of not very limpid prose, but no full stop. There is a humorous marginal note which describes this and
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the other subsections as "Minor amendments as to industrial development certificates." I think it was because they were misled by this optimistic marginal note that there appears to have been no investigation at all of this clause by Members of another place. Of course, there is an alternative, possible explanation, and this is that all the Members of another place understood what it meant.
What I think it means is this: an I.D.C. is not required if X plus Y minus Z does not exceed 5,000 square feet. In that formula, X is the industrial floor space to be created by the development in question; Y is the area of any other industrial floor space described in the passage beginning at line 38 on page 12 and ending with the word "Act" in line 3 of page 13: and Z is the area of floor space described in the last four lines of the subsection. I think, though I am not completely confident, that I understand X and Y. Will the Minister, perhaps, be good enough to explain Z? Z arises only where an industrial development certificate has been issued in respect of any such other development as has been described in the passage which I have detailed under Y. But where Z does arise, it can mean, I think, any of the following things: the space created by that development; the space to be created by that development; the space created by a development carried out before the issue of the certificate; and, fourthly, the space created by a development for which planning permission has been given before the issue of the certificate. Now what I should like the Minister to tell us is this: are those four possibilities mutually exclusive, or could they overlap? And, for the benefit of noble Lords, will he kindly give an example of each?
Finally, let me say this. It may be that the very clever fellows on the Government Front Bench understand the subsection: but, my Lords, so they ought to, because they have an unfair advantage over the rest of us. They have before them a document called "Notes on clauses", which has been prepared by the Parliamentary draftsman, and which in fact tells them what it means. But the rest of us have not that advantage. When this Bill becomes an Act of Parliament, the clause is intended to make clear to business men whether they need or need not apply

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for an industrial development certificate. The language ought to be clear, not only to Ministers, but to plain, blunt, ordinary chaps like me. The words are not so clear. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 33, leave out subsection (2).—(Lord Conesford.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I have often regretted that the language of Parliamentary Statutes does not invariably attain so high a standard of literary excellence as we might wish. As for its clarity to "ordinary chaps", I think one might observe that legal difficulty in defining or interpreting a Statute might sometimes arise from too much simplicity in the wording as well as from too great circumlocution. Being an "ordinary chap", I never try to interpret a Statute myself. I always depend on the advice of a lawyer, a fact which I hope my noble friend will appreciate.
I think that I may venture to claim for this Bill that the other parts of it are on the whole more simple and more easily intelligible than a great many Statutes. The reason for that is that this Bill repeals the Act of 1945. It is intended to continue the powers in that Act and to amplify and extend them in various ways, but to do so by the method of repealing the Act and starting all over again. This avoids the necessity of legislation by reference, which so often necessitates involved circumlocution in Parliamentary legislation.
When we come to Part III, we find that the authority for these industrial development certificates is not contained in the Distribution of Industry Act, 1945, but in the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947, and it would be going a little too far if we were to repeal the Town and Country Planning Act for the sake of not having to indulge in legislation by reference when we want to alter the terms relating to industrial development certificates. So here we have to have legislation by reference. I have here the Town and Country Planning Act, 1947. The proviso referred to is in Section 14 (4), in Part III of the Act:
"Provided that—
(a) no such certificate as aforesaid shall be required in respect of the erection of any industrial building which will have an aggregate floor space not exceeding five thousand square feet."
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The reason why we want to alter this is that people may evade the necessity of applying for a certificate by building on bit by bit—by building, for example, an extension of 4,000 square feet every year, or even at shorter intervals. One example has already come to our knowledge in which extensions of up to 65,000 square feet have been built in this way without any industrial development certificate. The Government want to stop this loophole. And we have to do it by legislation by reference to the Town and Country Planning Act.
After what my noble friend has said, I am almost ashamed to confess that I think I understand what this subsection means, but perhaps I may plead in extenuation that I have had the advantage not only of looking at the notes on clauses but also of discussing its meaning with those who drafted it. I am sure that they would be equally glad to discuss it with my noble friend, if he would do them the honour of paying them a visit for the purpose. Subsection (2) says
"Paragraph (a) of the proviso to the principal enactment"—
the one I have just read out to your Lordships from the 1947 Act—
"shall cease to have effect, but such a certificate shall not be required if the industrial floor space to be created by the development …"—
and perhaps I may now go on to the predicate, which comes on the next page—
"… does not exceed five thousand square feet, …"
In blocking up this loophole, we do not want to make it necessary for everybody to apply for an industrial development certificate whenever they build an extension of a few hundred feet. We want to make it necessary for them to do so only when the aggregate of their extension since the last certificate was received exceeds 5,000 square feet.
As for the final six lines or so of subsection (2), beginning with the word "excluding"—my noble friend referred to it as "Z"—as I understand it, all four qualifications are intended to be different and probably complementary; they may all be true at once, or may be alternatives. May I try to show my noble friend what happens? Suppose that there is an extension of 4,000 square feet, the first extension after the Act is passed.

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It would not require an industrial certificate. Suppose it was done in October and there was another extension of 2,000 square feet six months later. That would require an industrial development certificate, because the total is now over 5,000 square feet. There has been an extension of 6,000 square feet. We do not want the extra 1,000 square feet over the 5,000 square feet limit to be debited to the firm when it wants to make its next extension, and the wording is designed to ensure that it will not be possible to do so after this certificate has been granted. Suppose there is another extension of 4,000 square feet. If it were not for these words, the 1,000 and 4,000 square feet would make it necessary for a new application to be made, but owing to this wonderfully elusive permission contained in the clause, that will not be so. This will only count as 4,000 square feet and the previous 1,000 square feet will not be added on. When the next 4,000 square feet comes along, again bringing it to over 5,000 square feet, then a new certificate will be required. I have done my best to try to make the effect, if not the grammar and syntax, plain to your Lordships.
LORD LAWSON: May I ask if we can get a picture of the pyramids that the noble Earl has just made for the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow? I think that they are much more elucidating than his explanation.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I do not know whether there is any precedent for a diagrammatic Hansard. I have never known one in my experience. But I hope that if what I have said is correctly reported, as I am sure it will be, it may do something to elucidate the matter.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: I am sure that we are all very grateful to the noble Earl for his demonstration. I feel that I almost understand the clause, but not quite. We are indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, for raising this, because it has always struck me as a very important matter. Here we are, legislators making Statutes that will bind everybody, and I must say that very few of us really know what we are doing. At one time it was my duty to sign many statutory orders, and but for the
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fact that it was war time I should not have signed them, because I did not understand them at all. I assumed that those who instigated them were acting in good faith and that they could do more good than harm. But we, as legislators, ought not in peace time to pass clauses in a Bill which frankly we do not understand. I understand it better perhaps—and if I were brighter I might understand it fully—after the explanation that has been given. But would it not be better to embody in the Bill the words which the noble Earl has used, instead of the jargon here employed, which can mean nothing to anybody?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he has said. I would just mention that the words I have used have not been vetted by the Government's legal advisers, whereas those contained in the clause have been, and I am assured that, in their opinion, they do mean what I have tried to explain to your Lordships I think they mean.
LORD CONESFORD: I am grateful to my noble friend for his answer. I did not, in fact, complain that this subsection contained words of reference to an Act with which at one time I was very familiar, and I agree that some reference is necessary. I shall observe with interest in Hansard to-morrow whether his explanation of the subsection or my attack on it is the more comprehensible to the ordinary lay reader: I think it may, perhaps, be about 50–50. I shall certainly avail myself of the offer to discuss this matter with the Parliamentary draftsman, because, although he will have a hard task, I think he may ultimately make it clear to my mind. I think that what my noble friend may not have appreciated is that what I have called "Y"—the development that is to be added to the development in question—may not, as I understand it, have been the subject of an industrial development certificate at all. If it has been the subject of an industrial development certificate, I am not quite clear what is the difference between what you deduct under Z from what you are asked to add under Y. However, I shall not pursue the matter further.
I may say, in excuse, that I did not put my Amendment down until I had tried

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to see whether some of the most eminent legal members of this House could explain the matter to me, and when I found that they could not, I thought the Amendment was worth putting down. But on the assurance of my noble friend that the subsection is of limpid clarity to the ordinary businessman, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 19 agreed to.
Remaining clauses and Schedules agreed to.
House resumed.
House adjourned at a quarter past six o'clock.