Sitting of 13 December 1960

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on constitutional and procedural changes in the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, consequent on the recent increase in membership; and to what extent Nigeria and other new members of the organisation have accepted the relevant conventions already accepted by Great Britain.
    The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. F. J. Erroll): Only Nigeria has acceded fully to the General Agreement since 1957. In doing this she has acknowledged the obligations entered into on her behalf by the United Kingdom before the date of her independence. Argentina Cambodia, Israel, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland and Tunisia are taking part in the work of the Contracting Parties pending full accession; the obligations which they have so far accepted vary from case to case. No constitutional or procedural changes have been made in the General Agreement as a result of the participation of these countries, but the Contracting Parties have established a Council so that closer and more continuing attention can be given between sessional meetings to the problems of international trade.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the conventions relating to trade unions are being fully maintained, especially by the new nations? What steps is he taking to make sure that these conventions, rights, liabilities
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    and duties are being, and will be, fully maintained?
    Mr. Erroll: I shall have to look into the very important point which the hon. and learned Gentleman has put to me.

    U.S.S.R. (Fuel Oil and Cement)
    Mr. Fitchasked the President of the Board of Trade what imports of Russian fuel oil have been authorised since February 1958; and how much cement has been exported to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics during the same period.
    Mr. Erroll: In the period from February 1958 to October 1960, 201,733 tons of fuel oil have been imported under licence from the Soviet Union; 3,021 tons of cement were exported to the Soviet Union in the same period.
    Mr. Fitch: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Russian fuel oil is being imported to this country at a price which is at least £2 a ton lower than the market price? Would not he agree that the cement company involved has pulled a fast one over the Government by exporting a token export of cement in return for fuel oil at dumping prices?
    Mr. Erroll: No. The Portland Cement Company received its licence in February, 1958, and it was quite openly entered into. But other licences have not been issued since then.

    Imperial Preference (British Cameroons)
    Mr. Tilneyasked the President of the Board of Trade what proposals he has with regard to the application of Imperial Preference on products from the British Cameroons after the vote to be held there in February, 1961.
    Mr. Erroll: Pending the plebiscite, it would be inappropriate for Her Majesty's Government to make any statement.
    Mr. Tilney: But how can my right hon. Friend possibly expert people to vote if they do not know what they are voting for? People must know that there is an Imperial Preference of £7 a ton on 3 million bananas? Are they going to forfeit that when they vote in February of next year and price themselves out of the United Kingdom

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    market? Are they to be denied the opening of the Common Market in Europe? They really must know.
    Mr. Erroll: I appreciate the difficulty to which my hon. Friend has drawn my attention. But we have the important principle to maintain that we should not appear to be influencing the voters one way or the other by making any prejudgment on this issue.

    Union of South Africa (Military Equipment)
    Mr. Brockwayasked the President of the Board of Trade what military equipment is licensed for export to the Government of the Union of South Africa; and what conditions are attached to its use.
    Mr. Erroll: The military equipment listed in the First Schedule of the Export of Goods (Control) Order, 1960, is subject to export licensing control. Export licences do not attach conditions on the subsequent use of the goods.
    Mr. Brockway: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen reports that British-provided Saracen tanks are being used by the Government of the Union of South Africa for the repression of the resistance of Africans in Pondoland? Does not he think that we ought to apply conditions which will prevent such military equipment from being used for purposes which are abhorrent to the moral opinion of this country and the world?
    Mr. Erroll: If the hon. Gentleman thinks about the matter in its wider context, he will, I think, agree that it would be impossible effectively to enforce conditions on the subsequent use of such goods, although naturally we take into account the situation, so far as we know it to be, at the time of any application for an export licence.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the policy of apartheid is now becoming akin to some form of madness, and that the only way the South African authorities can be brought to their senses is by Great Britain and other countries, who can see the lunacy of this action, taking steps to show that we mean what we say?
    Mr. Erroll: I have noted the point made by the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. H. Wilson: If the Government cannot impose conditions as to the subsequent use to which these weapons can be put, is not the logic of this clear, namely, that they must ban the shipment of arms?
    Mr. Erroll: Perhaps I might be allowed to reply to that by putting a question to the right hon. Gentleman: is he proposing that all shipments of arms to all parts of the world should be prohibited if we are unable to secure enforcement of any condition regarding subsequent use? It is because we do not believe that we could accept that condition that we permit exports of arms to take place under licence.
    Mr. Wilson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that my answer to that question, if I were permitted to answer it, would be that we know what use these weapons are put to in South Africa after Sharpeville, and that, in view of that, there should be special and discriminatory bans on exports of munitions to South Africa.

    Newsprint Industry
    Mr. Jayasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will now refer the newsprint industry to the Monopolies Commission.
    Mr. Liptonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will refer the newsprint industry to the Monopolies Commission.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Niall Macpherson): No, Sir.
    Mr. Jay: As the price of newsprint is nearly six times as high as it was prewar, and as one newspaper after another is going out of production because of high costs, is there not a special obligation on the Government at least to take some steps to prevent monopoly practices in this industry?
    Mr. Macpherson: There might be several reasons for newspapers going out of production, but comparison with prewar prices is rather misleading. The newsprint commonly used nowadays is much lighter than that used pre-war.
    Mr. Lipton: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that democracy is in real danger—
    Mr. Nabarro: With the hon. Gentleman around it is.
    Mr. Lipton: —with free competition in newsprint as dead as mutton? Have not the Government heard about the tie-up between Anglo-Newfoundland and Bowaters? Are not the Government beginning to get concerned about the difficult situation which now prevails?
    Mr. Macpherson: My right hon. Friend is not aware that the present arrangements are inimical to the public interest.

    Toys (Safety)
    Mr. Boydenasked the President of the Board of Trade what action manufacturers and distributors of toys have reported to him to give effect to the advice of the Molony Committee to ensure that the eyes of toy animals are made secure and that lead-based paints are not used in toys.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: My right hon. Friend is informed that before the Committee on Consumer Protection made its interim report, leaders of the industry had already advised their members to take all reasonable steps to avoid such hazards as the hon. Member describes. I understand that this advice is being generally followed, not only by manufacturers, but also by importers.
    Mrs. Slater: In view of the danger of lead poisoning which has been proved in other toys for children, does not the hon. Gentleman think that there ought to be very definite regulations preventing lead being used which a child may suck and, therefore, harm its health?
    Mr. Macpherson: As I have said, the trade has already given evidence of having complied with this. I would remind the hon. Lady that the Committee on Consumer Protection referred to this matter as one of the points on which
    "we doubt the need for regulation".
    Mr. Boydenasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has now received evidence from the Molony Committee on the banning of celluloid or other highly inflammable toys; and what action he proposes to take.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: My right hon. Friend has not received any further observations from the Committee on this
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    subject, which can best be considered in the context of the main recommendation of the Committee's Interim Report.
    Mr. Boyden: Is it not probable that it will be necessary to ban this sort of toy? Should not the hon Gentleman give preliminary notice so that the manufacturers can take other steps?
    Mr. Macpherson: As I told the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. George Craddock) on 6th December, the President of the Board of Trade is considering with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department what action he should take on the main recommendation in the Committee's Report.

    Gambling Machines
    Mr. Snowasked the President of the Board of Trade what has been the expenditure of dollars on the importation from the United States of America of gambling machines, for the last convenient accounting period of not less than one year.
    Mr. Erroll: I regret that separate figures for gambling machines are not available.
    Mr. Snow: Is it not time that we had these figures? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the police are confiscating machines which are found on non-club premises, thereby demonstrating a direct wastage of dollars? Furthermore, even the provision of a law which enables these machines to be put into clubs is being got round, within the knowledge of hon. Members, by contractors leasing these machines to clubs. Is not this the sort of thing which ought to be the subject of futher investigation by the Department?
    Mr. Erroll: This Question relates only to statistics. We will certainly consider the matter, but I should point out that it is very difficult to define a gambling machine as such for statistical purposes, whatever statistics may come out of the machine. Nor would it be correct to assume that these gambling machines are paid for in dollars, as suggested by the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Rankin: What steps, if any, are taken to prevent children of school age using these machines?
    Mr. Erroll: That is not the responsibility of my right hon. Friend.
    Mr. Rankin: Rubbish.

    Government-aided Firms (Union Conditions)
    Mrs. Castleasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in order to enable hon. Members to ascertain whether firms receiving Government financial help are observing trade union conditions, he will publish the names of all firms receiving grants or loans of public money.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: No, Sir.
    Mrs. Castle: What steps are the Government taking to see that Government money is not put behind non-union firms? How can the unions take these firms to the Industrial Court if they do not know who they are? Can the hon. Gentleman tell me whether the new factory of the Harper Paper Group, recently opened in Blackburn, was opened with Government help, because that firm flatly refuses to allow the printing workers' union to organise its workers and is not introducing trade union conditions?
    Mr. Macpherson: In answer to the first part of the supplementary question, if the properly negotiated terms are not being observed I cannot see any difficulty involved in workers drawing the matter to the attention of their unions and the unions, in turn, taking the matter to the Industrial Court. In answer to the second part, not only the assistance given under the Local Employment Act but the fact that an application is made is treated as confidential.
    Mr. Lee: What is the real objection to my hon. Friend's suggestion? We know that, under the fair wage clause, if Government money is involved there is this facility. My hon. Friend is not seeking the amount of money paid to each firm. She is asking which firms are receiving it. What principle is involved here which the hon. Member cannot tell us?
    Mr. Macpherson: The principle involved is that it is confidential to the
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    President of the Board of Trade what firms make application for this assistance. The firm itself can reveal it if it likes. It is confidential for the very good reason that firms would be deterred from making applications for assistance if they thought that this information might be given.
    Mr. H. Wilson: If the Board of Trade will not publish it so that the workers can take appropriate action, will the Board of Trade make full trade union recognition a condition of receiving financial assistance? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he would be doing nothing new here, because in the lifetime of the Labour Government I can remember a case in South Wales where a factory was refused to a firm which would not give the necessary assurance about trade union recognition?
    Mr. Macpherson: There are two good reasons for not doing that. First, it is not provided for in the Act and it is not part of my right hon. Friend's function. Secondly, there would be no means of enforcing it.
    Mrs. Castle: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Harris Tweed
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will introduce legislation to ensure that all cloth marketed as Harris Tweed after January, 1962, is wholly processed and produced in the Outer Hebrides.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: No, Sir. This is a matter for the courts.
    Mr. MacMillan: There is a much wider question than action by the courts involved here. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is the blackest unemployment area in the whole of Britain? While we welcome new firms coming in, what is happening is that firms are going out there to do some of their processing, the rest being done elsewhere on the mainland. They are not giving full employment in the area like the "Orb" Mark firms. Therefore, we are asking for some protection for the traditional manufacturing industry in the area.
    Mr. Macpherson: This is a matter of application of the law and a matter for the courts. It is before the courts at present.

    Council of Europe (Wines and Spirits)
    Mr. Mathewasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Committee of Experts on Wines and Spirits, set up by the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe, intends to discuss at its next meeting in April, 1961, the definition and methods of production of whisky and gin, and that the decisions taken by the Committee are likely to result in changes of legislation and, perhaps, of customs duties in many European countries to which the United Kingdom exports these products; and whether he will therefore arrange that the United Kingdom should reconsider its refusal to take part in the work of this Committee.
    Mr. Erroll: I understand that detailed agenda for the April meeting have not yet been settled. When they come to hand, I will consider whether any useful purpose would be served by sending an expert to take part in the meeting.
    Mr. Mathew: My estimation is that spirits, including whisky and gin, will be discussed at this meeting. If that is so, will my right hon. Friend ensure that a representative to protect the interests of this important section of the British export trade is present at the meeting?
    Mr. Erroll: As I have said, we should like to see the agenda first.

    Factory, Stockton-on-Tees
    Mr. Chetwyndasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has been notified of the proposed closing of a locomotive works at Stockton-on-Tees; and what action he is taking to find a suitable alternative tenant for this Government-financed factory.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend is at present trying to find an alternative tenant.
    Mr. Chetwynd: As this is a Government-financed factory, will the hon. Gentleman make sure that it does not lie idle after the present firm leaves it in February?
    Mr. Macpherson: We cannot guarantee that at no time will it lie idle, but we shall certainly do our best.

    Restrictive Trading Agreements
    Mr. Ginsburgasked the President of the Board of Trade what proposals he has for the further registration of restrictive trading agreements under Section 9 of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: As a result of two Orders made, respectively, in August, 1956, and October, 1957, all agreements to which Part I of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956, applies became subject to registration. These Orders cover not only such agreements as already exist but any new registrable agreements that may come into existence. There are no further agreements in respect of which an order can be made under the Act.
    Mr. Ginsburg: Is the Minister aware that there is doubt whether this registration procedure is complete and that Members are in difficulty in questioning the President of the Board of Trade on this subject concerning the activities of the registrar? Is the hon. Gentleman aware, in particular, that there is a common price agreement governing the increase in prices of London evening newspapers which, apparently, has not yet been registered? Will he give directions to the Registrar to hold a hearing as to whether that increase is in the public interest?
    Mr. Macpherson: No, Sir. It is not for my right hon. Friend to give a direction to the Registrar on that matter. It is for the Registrar, if he thinks that he has reasonable cause to believe that such an agreement exists, to call upon the parties by written notice to furnish such particulars.

    Press Advertisements
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will introduce legislation to control the publication of misleading advertisements in the T.V. Times and other publications.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: My right hon. Friend is not convinced that legislation is the appropriate method for dealing with this matter. I have arranged to

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    discuss it with the T.V. Times as well as with the Newspaper Proprietors and the Periodical Proprietors Associations.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Is the Minister aware that we are glad that he has become acquainted with the T.V. Times since our last exchange at Question Time and that we appreciate that he is to have discussions on this point? Does he appreciate that the newspapers generally do not accept these switch sale advertisements and that it is a scandal that the T.V. Times continues to accept them? If I send the hon. Gentleman the transcript of a B.B.C. broadcast on this matter last Sunday, which shows the absolute dishonesty of the switch sale technique, will he read it?
    Mr. Macpherson: If the hon. Member sends me the transcript, I shall certainly read it.

    Captain Cook (Log Book and Journals)
    Mr. B. Harrisonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has reached a decision with regard to the export of the Palliser Cook Journals; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Deedesasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has reached a decision on the application for a licence to export the manuscript log book and journal of Captain Cook.
    Mr. Erroll: No decision has yet been reached.
    Mr. Harrison: In view of the significance of parts of these journals to New Zealand, will my right hon. Friend give his personal attention to the matter before any licence is issued?
    Mr. Erroll: I am very glad to reassure my hon. Friend that my right hon. Friend will look at the matter personally before a decision is taken.

    Durham
    Mr. Ainsleyasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will list and name the 16 new industrial buildings and extensions which have been provided in the Durham, North-West, constituency between 1st January, 1950, and 31st October, 1960.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: As the list is a lengthy one, I am circulating it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Ainsley: Is the Minister aware that a local newspaper report yesterday confirmed that another colliery is to close, affecting 700 men? Does he not realise that the remaining industry in the area—the manufacture of cosmetics and the making of ladies' gloves, underwear and dresses—is not suitable employment for ex-miners or quarrymen? Will the hon. Gentleman inform his hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) that the responsibility is that of the Government and not of Alfred Robens?
    Mr. Macpherson: That seems to be a rather different question from the one on the Order Paper.
    Following is the list:

    I. & R. Morley, Ltd., Extension at Langley Moor.

    I. & R. Morley, Ltd., New building at Lanchester.

    I. & R. Morley, Ltd., Second extension at Langley Moor.

    Marshall Richards Machine Company Limited. Extension at Crook.

    R. C. Lang & Company, Extension at Lanchester.

    Wolsingham Steel Company, Limited, Two extensions at Weardale.

    National Coal Board, Extension at Crook.

    A. J. Siris, Products, Limited, Three extensions at Lanchester.

    Ramar Dresses Limited, Extension at Crook.

    S. G. & R. Chessey, New building at Brandon and Byshottles.

    Wm. Neesham, Limited, Extension at Brandon and Byshottles.

    Light Fabrications Limited, New building at Lanchester.

    Geo. Blair & Company, Limited, Extension at Tow Law.

    Carpets and Furniture
    Mr. Holtasked the President of the Board of Trade if, in order to help the victims of flood disaster, he will remove the 42 per cent. import duty on carpets and the 17½ per cent. import duty on furniture.
    Mr. Erroll: No, Sir.
    Mr. Holt: Why not?
    Mr. Erroll: Because there are adequate supplies of home-produced material.
    Sir J. Duncan: Would my right hon. Friend agree that a far better way to

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    supply the victims of the floods with new carpets would be to get them through Dundee and Kidderminster?
    Mr. Nabarro: That is just what I was going to say.
    Mr. Holt: Would the Minister not Agree that for manufacturers in this country to take advantage of the distressing conditions resulting from the floods to secure a fortuitous boost in the sales of their carpets is monstrous?
    Mr. Erroll: I do not see that they are taking any advantage of the duties, because it is their mission in life to sell carpets. I hope that they succeed in doing so.
    Mr. Holt: Cannot the carpet manufacturers be asked the reduce their prices by 42 per cent.?

    Blyth
    Mr. Milneasked the President of the Board of Trade what examination he has made into the possibility of scheduling Blyth as a development area under the Local Employment Act.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: My right hon. Friend has considered this, but he does not think that the industrial prospects for Blyth at present warrant the inference that high and persistent unemployment is to be expected there. He will continue to watch the position in this as in neighbouring areas.
    Mr. Milne: Does that reply indicate that the President of the Board of Trade is less interested in the situation in Blyth now than he was during the recent by-election campaign?
    Mr. Macpherson: Not at all. According to a Press report, my right hon. Friend said that he would consider scheduling Blyth as a development area. As I have said, he has considered it, and he will continue to keep it in review.

    Seaton Valley and Bedlington
    Mr. Milneasked the President of the Board of Trade what action he intends to take in view of the effects of pit closures on employment in the Seaton Valley and Bedlington areas; and what assistance he is prepared to
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    give to local authority development committees to provide alternative employment.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: My right hon. Friend understands that the National Coal Board does not expect serious redundancies to arise from these closures; but he is keeping a careful watch on the position in these areas. We would nevertheless be glad to see new industry going to the area and welcome the co-operation of local development committees in seeking to attract it.
    Mr. Milne: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that prevention of unemployment is better than cure? What will he do to prevent these situations from arising?
    Mr. Macpherson: As I say, under the Act my right hon. Friend has to keep this matter under careful examination. The present unemployment rate, however, does not warrant his scheduling these areas and he considers that it would be over-pessimistic to anticipate a heavy rate of unemployment in the future. Incidentally, the National Coal Board expects to be able to place those miners Who will be affected by redundancies as a result of mines which are closed.

    Board of Trade Advisory Committee
    Mr. P. Wellsasked the President of the Board of Trade how often the Board of Trade Advisory Committee, set up under the Local Employment Act, meets.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: This Committee meets regularly once a month and more often if the necessity arises.
    Mr. Wells: Will the Minister use his influence to get the Committee to meet more frequently so as to review the backlog of applications, particularly those referring to the Isle of Sheppey?
    Mr. Macpherson: The Committee is meeting tomorrow and is getting on fast with its task. The House will, I am sure, appreciate that this is a voluntary body and cannot be expected to meet much more often than it is doing.
    Mr. Wells rose—

    United States (Gold Reserves)
    Mr. Nabarroasked the President of the Board of Trade what estimate he has made of the effects on overseas trade of the United Kingdom resulting from depletion of the gold reserves of the United States of America.
    Mr. Erroll: It is the measures taken by the United States Government to deal with the reduction in gold reserves rather than the reduction itself that may affect trade. Those so far taken should not have any serious effect. My right hon. Friend is watching the situation closely.
    Mr. Nabarro: In view of many possible dangers which may arise in the next few weeks if there is intensification of the measures already taken by the United States of America, can my hon. Friend assure the House not only that this matter will be kept under continuous review, but that if necessary conversations will be initiated by Her Majesty's Government?
    Mr. Erroll: We had better see whether what my hon. Friend portends comes about.
    Mr. Jay: Is there not a danger here of competitive deflation with everybody trying to defend their own gold reserves? Instead of merely watching, will not the Government consult the American and, indeed, the German Governments to see whether we cannot have a policy of lower interest rates all round?
    Mr. Erroll: This is not just a matter of interest rates. The satisfactory feature of the present situation is that the United States is not applying measures to tackle its balance of payments problem in such a way as to restrict normal commercial trading.
    Mr. Manuel: Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that instead of the President of the Board of Trade watching, waiting, hoping and praying for a lucky chance to arise and for something to turn up, the Government should take constructive action to shape the course of events and not be satisfied continually with giving these evasive answers which we get all the time from the Box?
    Mr. Erroll: It is also undesirable to panic when one is not being particularly hurt.

    Hire-Purchase Restrictions
    Mr. Nabarroasked the President of the Board of Trade to what extent hire-purchase restrictions, since inauguration in their present form, have contributed to increase in the export trade of the United Kingdom.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: These restrictions were imposed as part of the Government's measures to restrain internal demand. It was not expected that they would have any immediate or direct effect on exports, and I can make no estimate of their effect in this regard.
    Mr. Nabarro: But would my hon Friend not agree that increasing apprehension is being felt by bankers, businessmen and industrialists in all parts of the country that, far from these credit restrictions assisting exports, they are having exactly the opposite effect and militating against the export trade? Has the time not now arrived when mere should be an urgent reappraisal of present economic policies?
    Mr. Macpherson: My hon. Friend will recognise that this is a matter which is quite literally continuously under the attention of my right hon. Friend. My hon. Friend must recognise that what is quite certain is—
    Mr. Nabarro: My hon. Friend should not dictate to me. I will not be dictated to.
    Mr. Macpherson: May I say that I am sure that my hon. Friend does recognise that what is quite certain is that if the home market gets out of hand then sterling, the balance of payments and exports will suffer?
    Mr. Nabarro: Is my hon. Friend suggesting to the House now that the home market is out of hand? Is he having no cognisance at all of the fact that there are now hundreds of thousands of industrial workers, notably in the Midlands, who are on a three and four-day week instead of full-time without any appreciable effect upon the export trade at all? Therefore, is not it urgently desirable that there should be a reexamination of present policies?
    Mr. Macpherson: If my hon. Friend means a change in present policies—
    Mr. Nabarro: I said "a reappraisal".
    Mr. Macpherson: Perhaps my hon. Friend will allow me to answer his question. If my hon. Friend means a change, then that change will be made as soon as the Government consider that it is in the public interest to make it. If my hon. Friend is talking about an appraisal, I say that this matter is continuously under the attention of Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Jay: Does that mean that we must have actual unemployment before the Government change their policy?
    Mr. Macpherson: It does not mean that.

    Cotton Cloths
    Mr. Blackburnasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the volume of imports of cotton cloths for the first 10 months of 1960 and for the corresponding period of 1959; and if he will list the countries from which increased imports came.
    Mr. Erroll: Imports of cotton cloth amounted to 595 million square yards in the first ten months of 1960 and to 422 million square yards in the corresponding period of 1959. With permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of seventeen countries from which the increases have amounted to 500,000 yards or more.
    Mr. Blackburn: Is it not clear from these figures that, whatever benefits were expected to accrue to the cotton industry in this country from the agreements with Hong Kong, India and Pakistan, they have not accrued? Why is it considered possible for India, Pakistan and Hong Kong to control the level of the exports of this country when it is not possible for this country to control the total level of imports?
    Mr. Erroll: This is a very long supplementary question for me to try to answer. The point is that home production has been well maintained but is limited by the severe and continuing shortage of labour. Imports have risen because of strong demands following the recession in 1958–59. As for import-export control between Commonwealth countries, I suggest that the hon. Member will find on examination that the procedures involved are satisfactory.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this voluntary agreement with Hong Kong, which has no sanctions behind it, is very shortly coming to an end and that the present indications are that it will not be renewed? Have the Government paid any attention to this fact, or are they merely keeping the situation under constant review until catastrophe occurs?
    Mr. Erroll: There is a time for review and a time for action. Imports of piece goods from Hong Kong have declined this year and we are considering what appropriate action to take for the future.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Is not that the point? Is it not a fact that while these Commonwealth countries have reduced exports, countries like Spain have sharply increased exports to this country? Is not the reason for that partly that the Government, at a cost of £30 million to the taxpayer, have carried out a Luddite policy in Lancashire of reducing capacity so that prices have gone up?
    Mr. Erroll: The right hon. Gentleman did not pay his usual close attention. I said that part of the difficulty was the continuing shortage of labour which limited home production. I wish that the right hon. Gentleman had referred to that point as well.
    Following is the information:
    The seventeen countries for which the increases amount to 500,000 yards or more and which account for some 95 per cent. of the total increases are:

    India.

    Italy.

    Pakistan.

    Austria.

    Irish Republic.

    Hungary.

    Western Germany.

    Czechoslovakia.

    Netherlands.

    Yugoslavia.

    Belgium.

    Egypt.

    France.

    Japan.

    Portugal.

    United States.

    Spain.

    Dumbarton and Vale of Leven
    Mr. Steeleasked the President of the Board of Trade how many new jobs will be provided in Dumbarton and the Vale of Leven in the next 12 months.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: My right hon. Friend is aware of several firms who are considering establishing themselves or expanding in the area, but as yet he can

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    give no indication of the number of jobs they would be likely to provide or whether they would start recruiting before the end of 1961.
    Mr. Steele: While that reply may be helpful, may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman is aware, in view of the Answer to the previous Question by his right hon. Friend, that there is a factory closing down in Alexandria—the United Turkey Red? If there is a shortage of labour in the cotton industry, why is it not possible to keep this factory employed in the industry so that this need can be met?
    Mr. Macpherson: That is not a matter for my right hon. Friend. He cannot keep that industry going in Alexandria.

    Overseas Trade Centres
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the President of the Board of Trade how many Government-sponsored trade centres to display and promote sales of British products have been established in other countries on lines similar to the trade promotion headquarters to be established in London by the Government of the United States of America in the spring of 1961.
    Mr. Erroll: Although the Board of Trade has in a few places, and on a very much smaller scale, used displays of this kind, it has taken the view that other methods, such as participation in overseas exhibitions, make better use of available resources. It is, however, as part of the current examination of export promotion, reconsidering whether trade centres of this kind would justify themselves.
    Mr. Johnson: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that trade centres of this kind would give really practical assistance to our export trade and would be of more value than exhortations to sell abroad and perhaps even be of more value than restrictions on credit at home? May I express the hope that this point will be taken into consideration?
    Mr. Erroll: This is but one form of export trade promotion. There are many others, and we feel that so far the others have been more profitable to all concerned. We will look into this matter, however, as part of our general examination.

    Scottish Craft Centre
    Mr. John MacLeodasked the President of the Board of Trade what are the purposes for which funds are made available to the Scottish Craft Centre.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: Since 1953, grants to supplement the Centre's independent income have been made to it as a body which, under the Industrial Organisation and Development Act, 1947, has been promoting activities conducive to the improvement of industrial design.
    Mr. MacLeod: While I wholeheartedly support every effort made to develop craftsmanship in Scotland, may I ask whether my hon. Friend is aware that firms which call at this Centre have been refused the names of craftsmen who exhibit there, although these firms may want to help these individuals? Is not this refusal stultifying the very object for which the Centre was set up?
    Mr. Macpherson: I do not know whether my hon. Friend is aware of it, but the grant covers only one-sixth of the Centre's income. It has to raise the rest itself by sales and commission. Subject to that, I am sure that the Centre would be willing to co-operate with anyone who is seeking to achieve the same objective as itself, which is to make known and to improve the standards of Scottish craftsmanship.
    Mr. MacLeod: As public funds are being used, would my hon. Friend advise the Centre that it should give the names of the individuals concerned?
    Mr. Macpherson: I was not aware that it was not doing so in appropriate cases, and I shall be happy to look into the point now that it has been brought to my attention.
    Mr. Dugdale: Would the hon. Gentleman tell us how many matters his right hon. Friend is looking at, how many he is considering, how many he is continuously considering, and what is the difference between these various activities?
    Mr. Macpherson: My right hon. Friend continuously examines things which are continuously of public interest and is always willing to look at things that are brought to his attention.

    Vactric Limited
    Mr. Cooperasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will institute a public inquiry into the share dealings of Vactric Limited, now in the hands of the Official Receiver, since 1st April, 1960, with particular reference to put options and short selling.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: My right hon. Friend has no powers to institute inquiries into share dealings.
    Mr. Cooper: Is my hon. Friend aware that by deliberate intent a "bear" position was exposed in Manchester, involving several hundreds of thousands of shares, and that this has contributed to this company's misfortune? Is it not high time that the casino mentality of a few operators should be exposed?
    Mr. Macpherson: I should be grateful to my hon. Friend if he would give the evidence on which he bases his statement. The company's affairs are, as he says, now within the jurisdiction of the court and, therefore, my right hon. Friend cannot now appoint an inspector under Section 165.
    Mr. H. Wilson: What is the good of giving information to the Board of Trade if it cannot take any action when it gets it? Would the hon. Gentleman say that when the matter is no longer sub judice the Board will have power to institute an inquiry under the Companies Act? If it cannot, will it ask the Council of the Stock Exchange to inquire into the whole question, in view of the deep concern felt on both sides of the House about the activities to which the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) has drawn attention?
    Mr. Macpherson: The point is that neither my right hon. Friend nor the Stock Exchange has had up to the moment information on which such action could be based, but if such information is forthcoming the Government will certainly consider whether such action can be taken.

  LEASEHOLD ENFRANCHISEMENT
  Mr. Donnellyasked the Attorney-General whether he will now introduce legislation for leasehold enfranchisement.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Reginald Manningham-Buller): No, Sir.
  Mr. Donnelly: While thanking the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that reply, may I ask whether we are to assume from it that any Conservative spokesman in Wales who promises leasehold enfranchisement does so without authority and with deliberate intent to deceive?
  The Attorney-General: The hon. Member is asking much the same supplementary question as he asked to the same Question which he put in 1958. My answer is much the same.

  PROPERTIES (INSURANCE)
  Mr. Shepherdasked the Attorney-General if he is aware of the extensive practice of freeholders, solicitors, estate agents, building societies and corporations insisting upon a specific insurance company for fire cover in respect of properties with which they are concerned as a result of which commissions are often drawn; and whether he intends to deal with this restrictive trade practice legislatively, as recommended by the Leasehold Committee Final Report, 1950.
  The Attorney-General: I have no information as to the extent of the practice referred to. The Government do not propose to introduce legislation to deal with it.

  COLONIAL AND COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS OFFICES
  Mr. Wallasked the Prime Minister whether in view of the many problems caused by the expansion of the Commonwealth, he will consider the fusion of the Colonial Office and the Commonwealth Relations Office.
  Mr. Stonehouseasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the future of the Colonial Office and Commonwealth Relations Office, in view of the contracting responsibilities of the former and the expanding duties of the latter.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): I am considering, in consultation with my right hon. Friends the Commonwealth and Colonial Secretaries,

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  the recommendations made on this subject by the Select Committee on Estimates.
  Mr. Wall: While I welcome that reply, does not my right hon. Friend agree that the sharp division that now exists between sovereign States and non-sovereign States of the Commonwealth is wrong? Would not the amalgamation of these two offices tend to make the sovereign States take more interest in the still dependent States in the Commonwealth?
  The Prime Minister: That is one aspect of the problem. On the other hand, one must not underrate the other aspect—the difficulty of combining in a single office our relations with the wholly independent members and our remaining duties to those which are necessarily still dependent.
  Mr. Stonehouse: Does not the Prime Minister agree that there is a problem of co-ordination here, particularly concerning the future of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland? For instance, which Minister was responsible for cancelling the territorial conferences in relation to both Northern and Southern Rhodesia?
  The Prime Minister: That clearly does not arise out of this Question.
  Mr. Gaitskell: In view of the fact that the Select Committee emphasised the danger that such a proposal might have an adverse affect in the Commonwealth and be misunderstood, will the right hon. Gentleman consider discussing this with the other Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth at their Conference in March?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
  Sir G. Nicholson: Will not my right hon. Friend agree that there is only one Commonwealth and not two? Surely the main problem is one of presentation—that is, of presenting the arguments that appear valid to us to the independent members of the Commonwealth in the hope that they will reach the same conclusion?
  The Prime Minister: All these are matters of importance to the problem of organisation and the wider problem of how to handle this to get the best results. We are studying these problems to see
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  whether we can get some of the advantages of co-ordination without the disadvantages to which I have called attention.

  FOREIGN AFFAIRS (MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITIES)
  Mr. Wyattasked the Prime Minister whether he will define the responsibilities for the various aspects of foreign affairs as between himself, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the Lord Privy Seal.
  The Prime Minister: The responsibilities and duties are as I described them in the debate on 28th July.
  Mr. Wyatt: Can the right hon. Gentleman point to any independent action by his two subordinates, whether in Europe or anywhere else? Can he assure the House, particularly his own supporters, that he will not overtax his strength by taking too much on himself either in this or in any other Governmental sphere?
  The Prime Minister: I am very grateful for the second part of that supplementary question, which shows the gracious and friendly attitude which I have always had from Members opposite.
  On the first part, I must call attention to the fact that there are hardly any problems, in one way or another, which do not affect foreign policy. Foreign policy has to be settled by the collective conclusions of the Government, under the guidance of the Ministers specially responsible. In other words, the process involves a concept of partnership which I commend to Members opposite.
  Mr. Grimond: Can the Prime Minister tell us whether this concept of partnership was in force at the time of Suez?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir—by the nation as a whole.

  POLARIS SUBMARINE BASE, SCOTLAND
  Mr. Wyattasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the experience gained from the arrangements made for the reception of Polaris submarines, he is

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  now satisfied that there is complete understanding between himself and the President of the United States of America as to the control and use of Polaris submarines operating from Holy Loch.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Wyatt: Is it not the case that the first suggestion for the establishment of the Polaris submarine base in Britain came not from the United States but from the British authorities? Has that been inhibiting the right hon. Gentleman from securing an arrangement whereby none of these submarines could ever be used, without consultation, in such a way as to bring massive retaliation on us?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The hon. Gentleman is misinformed on the facts. He lives in a dream world.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: Has the Prime Minister's attention been drawn to the Russian statement that in the last war we not only tried to destroy submarines but we also bombed their bases as well, and that this might happen again? Does he realise that he has placed a great industrial part of the country in great danger without giving it any protection at all?
  The Prime Minister: I had observed the statement to which the hon. Member referred. This country, throughout its history, has tried to do what it thought to be its duty, and it will not be deterred from doing so by blackmail.
  Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister what protests he has received from local authorities and other organisations in Scotland about his agreement to establish a Polaris submarine base on the Holy Loch; and what has been the nature of his replies.
  Mr. Warbeyasked the Prime Minister what reply he has sent to the communication from the National Union of Mineworkers protesting against the establishment of a base for Polaris submarines.
  The Prime Minister: I have received a number of representations about the agreement to provide facilities for Polaris-carrying submarines in Holy Loch, but none from the National Executive Committee of the National Union
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  of Mineworkers. I would prefer to follow my normal practice of refusing to go further than this in giving details of the general make-up of my correspondence.
  Mr. Hughes: Is the Prime Minister to pay no attention to representations from Glasgow Corporation, Dunbartonshire County Council, Ayreshire County Council, Greenock Town Council, Cowal District Council, representing the overwhelming majority of the people who live in that part of the country? Is he to foist this thing upon them against their will, or is he prepared to tell the President of the United States that opinion in the west of Scotland is overwhelmingly against this base, because the people there think that it is a public danger and does not add to their security?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that it is necessary for me to follow either of those courses. While I recognise the sincerity and the strength of feeling which prompt various representations which I have received, the Government have a duty to make their decisions according to what they think is right and to ask the House of Commons, representing the country as a whole, to support their conclusions.
  Mr. Warbey: While there may be some delay in the mail during the Christmas period, will the Prime Minister recognise that there is now a substantial and growing volume of opinion from representative organisations in opposition to the Polaris base? If he wants 1961 to be a creative year for Europe, is it a very good idea to increase nuclear facilities in this country?
  The Prime Minister: I joined these two Questions together, but I am bound to say that I think that the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) had a rather stronger foundation for his Question, because he referred to some representations which I have received. I must repeat my reply to the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey)—that I have received no representations from the Executive Committee of the National Union of Mineworkers.
  Sir T. Moore: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is strong resentment against the suggestion, made by the hon.

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  Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), that Scotland is either fearful or unwilling to play her part in the defence of the free world?
  The Prime Minister: I think that the history of this century shows the truth of what my hon. Friend has said.
  Mr. Manuel: Does the Prime Minister recognise that the bulk of public opinion in Scotland is against this proposal, despite what his hon. Friend the Member for Ayr (Sir T. Moore) has said? In view of the number of protests which he has received—
  Sir T. Moore: From a Socialist-controlled lobby.
  Mr. Manuel: —does he not agree that he is in some difficulty about replying, because he has no safeguarding agreement with the United States about the use of Polaris?
  The Prime Minister: I could be led into a long discussion, but I think that I have done very well today and I do not want to hold up other Questions.
  Mr. Healey: On a point of order. You will recall that last Thursday, Mr. Speaker, I put a question to the Prime Minister as to whether he could give the House some details of where negotiations between the Six and the Seven now stood, and in replying the Prime Minister said that that question did not arise from the original Question but that if I put a Question on the Order Paper he would answer it. My point of order is whether, as guardian of the privileges of the House, you have any power to persuade the Prime Minister to fulfil undertakings which he has made to the House as a whole.
  Mr. Speaker: Perhaps I have not been following properly, but is the hon. Gentleman telling me that he has put down such a Question to the Prime Minister?
  Mr. Healey: Yes, Sir. I put such a Question down to the Prime Minister for answer today, but I was informed by his private secretary that at the Prime Minister's request it had been transferred to the Lord Privy Seal.
  Mr. Speaker: One of the few matters which does not rest upon the burdened shoulders of the Chair is that of transfer.
  The Prime Minister: If the hon. Member will put the Question back to me I will do my best to answer it. These things are done rather mechanically. I did not follow every detail, but if the hon. Member makes it a matter of personal honour, of course I will answer the Question if he will be good enough to put it down for next Thursday.
  Mr. Healey: I am happy with that assurance.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Prime Minister's reply on the subject of the Polaris base, I give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.
  Mr. Speaker: I would like to think about that. I suspect that it may be out of order by reason of another Motion.

  OVERSEAS GOVERNMENTS (PROPAGANDA)
  Mr. Pagetasked the Prime Minister whether he will introduce legislation to control expenditure in this country by foreign or Commonwealth Governments for purposes of political propaganda either directly or through advertising agents employed for this purpose.
  The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. and learned Member on 27th October.
  Mr. Paget: That reply was, "No, Sir." Does the Prime Minister really feel that it is enough? We have had the instance of Ghana—which has, I think, now been brought to an end—and now we have Southern Rhodesia employing a firm to influence our political decisions and to exercise influence on hon. Members. Is not this becoming very like the Washington system of professional, paid lobbyists, which I think we all recognise as very objectionable? Should not something be done in time before that system is established here?
  The Prime Minister: I see the reasons that lie behind the hon. and learned Gentleman's Question. On the whole, Her Majesty's Government are in favour of the freest possible distribution of information. We have difficulties in some countries and we try to overcome them.

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  On the whole, this is best left to the public decision.
  Mr. Stonehouse: Is the Prime Minister aware that at the opening of the Lancaster House Conference an organisation known as "Voice and Vision" distributed propaganda on behalf of the Central African Federation to the Press? Would he look into that as an example of the activities of this public relations organisation?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I have no doubt that quite a lot of propaganda has been indulged in in connection with this Conference. What we are trying to do is to reach an amicable solution on these immense problems.
  Mr. Mayhew: Might not we learn something from the United States practice, which requires the public registration of agents working on behalf of foreign Governments?
  The Prime Minister: That might go very far.

  TEACHERS
  Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the continuing shortage of teachers, and its effect upon the increase in juvenile delinquency, he will recommend the appointment of a Royal Commission to consider the problem.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. The Government will, of course, continue to give their attention to all aspects of the supply of teachers, bearing in mind the advice already received from important bodies specially concerned with the problem.
  Mr. Hamilton: Is the Prime Minister aware that the shortage of teachers is at least as serious as the shortage of policemen, and that the social effects of such a shortage are very much more serious than the shortage of policemen?
  Whilst the House as a whole welcomes the recently announced increases for the police, does not he recognise that this means that a teacher, after several years in a grammar school and two years' study at a teacher training college, will start at a basic rate of £520 a year, whereas a raw recruit into the police will start, at the age of 19, at £600 a year?
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  In view of the evident priorities of the Government in regarding the police as more important than teachers, will he not now take steps to remedy this very grave deficiency in our social life?
  The Prime Minister: One of the disadvantages, as well as one of the advantages, of a period of full employment and a generally high standard of living and consumption and production is that there is a shortage of everything. On the other hand, that is much better than a surplus of people looking for jobs, which is what I can remember many years ago. Of course there are difficulties. All the same, the number of teachers training in England and Wales and Scotland has increased in recent years by just over one-third. In England and Wales the number of places will be doubled by 1966, and 2,000 additional places are being provided in Scotland. We are making every effort to increase the training of teachers and, on the whole, looking around it is remarkable what success there has been.

  CENTRAL EUROPE (CONTROL OF ARMS)
  Mr. Healeyasked the Prime Minister whether he will invite the Soviet Prime Minister to join him in setting up a committee of experts to study the technical problems involved in controlling arms and forces in an agreed area of Europe, as proposed in their joint communiqué in March, 1959.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I do not think this matter can be dealt with except multilaterally.
  Mr. Healey: In view of the importance which the Prime Minister very reasonably attaches to such expert study of very difficult and complicated questions, and in view of the great advantages which he and Mr. Khrushchev saw in some such arrangement in Central Europe, if the right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to make bilateral arrangements of this type, will he propose at the N.A.T.O. Council that N.A.T.O. should approach the Soviet Government with a view to multilateral studies along these lines?
  The Prime Minister: We must think about the exact forum for these discussions, but in the course of the next

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  year, which will be a very difficult but perhaps very creative year in the history of Europe, I will bear in mind the anxiety which the hon. Member feels and my own strong feeling that some progress might be made along those lines.

  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    No. 2 Carlton Gardens
    Mr. F. Noel-Bakerasked the Minister of Works when he proposes to complete the restoration of No. 2 Carlton Gardens, once Lord Kitchener's house; how long the restoration will take; why commencement of this work has been delayed; and to what use the building will eventually be put.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Richard Thompson): I hope that a contract will be let next summer and work completed in the autumn of 1962. The interior planning of the building has been revised but working drawings are now well advanced. The principal use will be to accommodate the Royal Fine Art Commission.

    Banqueting Hall, Whitehall
    Mr. F. Noel-Bakerasked the Minister of Works if he will now announce his plans for the Banqueting Hall at Whitehall.
    Mr. R. Thompson: I cannot yet add to the reply given to the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Parker) on 6th December.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: As the beauty of this important building is a matter of great interest to organisations and individuals throughout this country and all over the Commonwealth, is it not time that the Ministry of Works got on with it? What are the reasons for this interminable delay?
    Mr. Thompson: I understand the hon. Member's legitimate concern, but this is not as easy a matter as might be supposed. The occupation of the Banqueting Hall by the Royal United Service Institution is by grant of Queen Victoria in 1890, and no alternative proposal can be made to Her Majesty until entirely suitable and acceptable alternative accommodation is found for the Royal
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    United Service Institution and other terms are agreed.

    High Commissioner's Residence, Nigeria
    Mr. Tilneyasked the Minister of Works what has been the cost of the new residence in Lagos recently built for the United Kingdom High Commissioner to the Federation of Nigeria.
    Mr. R. Thompson: Work is not quite finished, but the present estimated cost of the residence, together with the servants' quarters, and garden works, but excluding furnishing, is £110,000. The Nigerian Government most generously contributed £40,000 towards this sum, as well as the magnificent site on which the residence has been built.
    Mr. Tilney: Has my hon. Friend seen this building, which compares very unfavourably with the charming, modern buildings at Lagos, many of which were put up by the Nigerian Public Works Department? Is he aware that this building looks like a rather badly designed corporation bath house?
    Mr. Thompson: Although I have not seen the building, I do not accept the implications of my hon. Friend's question. All these questions of design, as my hon. Friend will realise, are matters of taste and judgment about which there is always likely to be controversy. If we try to avoid it, we shall finish up with some very dull buildings.

CENTRAL AFRICA

  Federal Review and Territorial Constitutional Conferences
  Mr. Callaghan(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations whether he will make a statement on the withdrawal of the African delegates from the Federal Review Conference at Lancaster House yesterday and the postponement of the Central African Territorial Conferences.
  The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. Duncan Sandys): At the opening meeting of the Federal Review Conference on 5th December all delegates agreed that their proceedings would be confidential. I do not, therefore, propose to say anything about what took place at our meetings. However,

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  hon. Members will have read in this morning's newspapers statements made outside the Conference by certain of the African delegates. From these statements it would appear that these delegates have decided not to attend any further meetings of the Conference.
  The Conferences to review the Constitutions of Southern Rhodesia and Northern Rhodesia are, of course, closely interrelated with the Conference to review the Constitution of the Federation. It was, therefore, decided to postpone these territorial conferences, which were to have opened this morning, to give time to clarify the position. The Federal Conference is, of course, continuing as planned, and is at this moment in session.
  Mr. Callaghan: Does the Minister not realise that it is at least arguable as to how far the two sets of conferences are interrelated, especially when one takes into account that the Nyasaland Constitutional Conference was held quite separately many months ago and decisions were reached? I hope that he will not rely on that as being the reason for postponing it.
  May I ask him whether he accepts the view that unless there is agreed constitutional progress for these two territories, particularly for Northern Rhodesia, and some considerable improvement in the franchise in Southern Rhodesia, there is no prospect of success for the Federal Review Conference?
  Mr. Sandys: Of course, I accept that the successful outcome of the Federal Review Conference does depend, as the hon. Gentleman said, to a large extent upon the progress made at these territorial conferences. That is the reason why I said that the two were closely interrelated.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Will my right hon. Friend make it absolutely clear that postponement of the territorial conferences is a matter of convenience only and not of principle?
  Mr. Sandys: It is to see where we are.
  Mr. Dugdale: Following on the noble Lord's question, will the Minister assure the House that it is not in any sense a threat that if the African delegates do not return the territorial conferences will be put off?
  Mr. Sandys: The threats have all come from other people.
  Sir G. Nicholson: Will my right hon. Friend urge on the African delegates the illogicality and the harm that will be done by taking up an irrevocable position vis-à-vis the Federal Conference before seeing what progress is made in the territorial conferences?
  Mr. Sandys: I think that those African leaders who have remained may well achieve more by calm discussion round the conference table than those who have walked out will achieve by striking attitudes in front of the television cameras.

NATIONAL ASSISTANCE ACT, 1948 (AMENDMENT)
3.36 p.m.
Mr. Frank McLeavy: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend section thirty-one of the National Assistance Act, 1948, and to empower local authorities to provide meals and recreation for old people; and for purposes connected therewith.
Section 31 of the National Assistance Act, 1948, empowers local authorities to make contributions to voluntary organisations which provide meals and recreation facilities for old people. A variety of voluntary organisations in various parts of the country are providing these services for old people.
I think it is only fair to state that, within the limitations of available voluntary workers and finance, these bodies are doing splendid work, but there is nothing like a network of services operating throughout the country. The quality and scope varies, and is very limited indeed. The services apply to some areas but not to others, and there is a lack of co-ordination.
The main purpose of the Bill which I seek leave to introduce today is to bridge this gap in our social services by giving local authorities the power to bring in a scheme for the purpose of providing meals and recreation. This will enable voluntary organisations to be used to the full and their work supplemented by the
218
local authorities. In other words, it will co-ordinate both voluntary and welfare services of the local authorities in such a way as to provide a nation-wide service.
The proposed Bill is identical to the one which I brought before the House in 1957, as amended in Committee. The Amendments in Committee were made at the request of the Government, so it is reasonable to assume that, having met all their requirements, the Bill will now receive Government support. The Bill has the support of hon. Members from the three political parties in the House, and I trust that it will commend itself to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Frank McLeavy, Miss Joan Vickers, Mr. Clement Davies, Dr. Barnett Stross, Major Sir Frank Markham, Miss Herbison, Mr. Tiley, Mr. Thomas Brown, Mr. Burden, and Mr. George Craddock.

NATIONAL ASSISTANCE ACT, 1948 (AMENDMENT)
  NATIONAL ASSISTANCE ACT, 1948 (AMENDMENT)
  Bill to amend section thirty-one of the National Assistance Act, 1948, and to empower local authorities to provide meals and recreation for old people; and for purposes connected therewith, presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 24th February and to be printed. [Bill 47.]

DEFENCE
3.42 p.m.
Mr. George Brown: I beg to move,
That this House, asserting the paramount need for multilateral disarmament, but meanwhile accepting the responsibilities involved in membership of the Western Alliance, regrets the failure of Her Majesty's Government to put forward proposals for a balanced North Atlantic Treaty Organisation strategy in Europe and in particular for reducing undue reliance on nuclear weapons; to press for effective political control over the nuclear weapons of the West; and to obtain adequate British participation in the decisions governing the operation of missile-carrying submarines using facilities provided by this country.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, I should like to put a point to you about the first Motion on the Order Paper relating to today's debate. You will no doubt have observed that there is no Government Amendment to the Motion put down by my right hon. Friends, but that there are two Amendments from this side of the House. It seems clear, therefore, so far as the Order Paper can make it clear, that the issues to be debated are those set out in my right hon. Friend's Motion and the Amendments. May I therefore ask you whether it is your intention to call the Amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale (Mr. Anthony Greenwood) and other of my hon. Friends and myself?
[Line 1, leave out from "House" to end and add "condemns Her Majesty's Government's pursuance of a defence policy based on a nuclear strategy, involving the continued manufacture of hydrogen-bombs by this country and the continued maintenance of nuclear bases on our soil, which offers no defence for the country, encourages the spread of nuclear weapons in the world and impairs any possibility of developing a foreign policy which could lead to general multilateral disarmament and a real peace."]
Mr. J. Grimond: May I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that it would make for clarity of debate if the Amendment standing in the names of myself and my hon. Friends were called in place of the substantive Motion, since
220
my Amendment appears to express the policy towards which the official Opposition are now groping and which we in the Liberal Party have put forward for some time? The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) could then put his Amendment as an Amendment to mine.
[Line 2, leave out from "disarmament" to end and add "believes that attempts by Great Britain to become an independent nuclear power do not contribute to the maintenance of world peace, do not add to Britain's own security and are economically wasteful; recognises that the defence of Britain must be founded on a policy of collective security and, while deploring Her Majesty's Government's policy of relying increasingly on nuclear weapons at the expense of conventional forces, reaffirms its support for the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation as a necessary shield until multilateral disarmament has been achieved and urges Her Majesty's Government, meanwhile, to negotiate with the United States of America and other members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation a more effective joint control over the use of nuclear weapons; and also urges Her Majesty's Government to strive as a matter of urgency for political unity in Europe as the best means of securing effective and balanced defences in the West."]
Mr. Speaker: No Amendments are selected to the proposition in the names of the right hon. Member the Leader of the Opposition and other right hon. and hon. Members.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: How am I to move my Amendment to the Liberal Party Amendment if it is not to be called, Mr. Speaker?
[Line 4, leave out from "wasteful" to end and add "realising that there can be no real defence of the civil population of Great Britain in the event of nuclear war and no adequate control of United States aircraft, submarines and missiles operating from bases in this country, calls for the ending of all treaties and agreements with the United States of America, that might involve us in war; and urges Her Majesty's Government to prepare a four years' plan for total disarmament, including proposals for the

221
ending of all foreign bases and the withdrawal of all foreign armies front all countries, thus ending the arms race, relievinq international tensions and enabling all nations, now spending enormous sums on armaments, to devote their resources to improving the health, education, housing and standards of life of their people, and to assisting the underdeveloped areas of the world."]
Mr. Speaker: Not even the hon. Member can discuss that matter now. We are rather short of time.
Mr. G. Brown: The Motion in the name of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition starts with an assertion that it is fundamental and vital that world-wide, effectively controlled disarmament, together with provision to maintain authority and to enforce its decisions, is the only hope of achieving lasting peace and security. Yet, although this is fundamental and vital, and will be subscribed to by everybody, it is one of life's tragic ironies that we have all become so used to living with ideological differences in the world, and with the difficulties of achieving measures of disarmament, as well as living with the mounting horror of weapon development, that we sometimes tend to regard such a re-statement almost with boredom, as being too platitudinous to be worth saying. However, I think it is right to repeat, at the beginning of this debate, what we all know, namely, that the only real, long-range objective that is worth while if we are seeking security and defence for our people and peace for the world is an agreement on control arrangements for multi-weapon, multi-nation disarmament.
I say this both for its intrinsic value and because I have a feeling that there may now be, at this moment in time, an opportunity for a new initiative towards this invaluable end. Two events, in particular, encourage me to feel this way. First, we see coming into power in the United States of America a new, young and vigorous American President, accompanied by a new Administration of men who, in so far as we know their names and in so far as they are people we ourselves know, appear to be noted for the vision and freshness of their ideas on things that in the last year or two have seemed to be regarded almost as
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taboo in United States policy. This coming to power of new men—men of the twentieth century—to whom these ideas have been, if not acceptable, at least worth of study and of progressive liberal thought, is one of the great encouraging things that have happened recently.
Most hon. Members will have read the President-elect's review—which he apparently wrote, astonishingly enough, in the middle of his campaign—of Captain Liddell Hart's book "Deterrent or Defence". To those who have not read it I commend it as a worth-while study of the way in which the new President-elect's mind moves in regard to matters of which it has been difficult until now to get adequate consideration.
The second encouraging event is the Communist Summit, which has recently concluded with an apparent victory for Mr. Khrushchev's ideas on the question of the inevitability or non-inevitability of war and his views about the desirability of war for the achieving of Communist ends. We must be wary of making too facile an interpretation of Communist world events and gyrations, but we must not make the equally silly mistake of ignoring them. The Communist leaders go to great trouble to study and endeavour to interpret us, and we cannot have a successful foreign policy unless we try to do the same.
All who attempt to reorientate policies of great movements which involve considerable and delicate personality questions, as well as theoretical realignments, feel the need of support and victories, and this could be Mr. Khrushchev's position at the moment. It seems to me that the West should be willing and eager to test the new situation, if it exists, by a new initiative. In making this new initiative there are three suggestions that I want to make.
First, we must try to broaden the basis of the disarmament discussions which have dragged on so interminably in the past. I would have thought that we should try to do so, first, by bringing in some neutrals to avoid the continuation of the mere confrontation that has gone on all this time; secondly, by making it become realised at this time—when we hope that it will be easier to

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do so—that without China being involved in and a party to any disarmament arrangements, no effective or trustworthy arrangements are likely to be made; and, thirdly, by using this moment to raise again—since it is a question upon which the door has been slammed elsewhere in the past, but in relation to which the door may now be open—the question of the possibility of disengagement in Europe as one area in which some advance may be possible, and in which an improvement would be desirable both for East and West.
Let us always remember that the purpose of the N.A.T.O. alliance was to create conditions for a better chance of negotiating lasting settlements and agreements. It was not its purpose to create a new vested interest to frustrate the opportunity of doing that. This must always be the basis of our support for N.A.T.O. As those of us who knew him well know, it was the basis of the late Ernest Bevin's tremendous effort to get it established. In short, let us realise that N.A.T.O. is essentially an emergency measure dictated by the dangerous times in which we live and dictated, it is true, by the weaknesses of the United Nations as an organisation for the preservation of collective security. It is as an under-prop for the United Nations, an interim guarantee against aggression, and a stepping stone to the wider collective security that we seek that we should see it.
It is in that light that I want to invite the House to look with me for a moment or two at the coming N.A.T.O. Council meeting, to which Ministers will be going very shortly. It comes at a tremendously significant time, when changes in thought and outlook are inevitably, I should have thought, arising, quite apart from the considerations I have mentioned, from three new events. The new United States Administration will not be at the N.A.T.O. Council meeting, and, therefore, I imagine that there is a certain barrier to taking vast, solid and firm decisions there, but, in view of the policies which Her Majesty's Ministers have been pursuing in the past under the old Administration in America, I am not sure that I do not prefer that to their taking the firm decisions which otherwise they might.
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Quite part from the considerations that I have mentioned, there are three great events that have arisen. One is the arrival of new weapons systems, involving much greater mobility than those to which we have become accustomed in the last few years. That greater mobility, whatever else it does, certainly seems to carry with it a reduction in the need there is now for split-second, hair's-breadth decisions. Therefore, because of that, they would seem to offer new possibilities for political control and for political consultation. The old argument was often trotted out that it might well not be valid in the light of the new weapons systems and in the possibilities they offer.
The second, conversely, is that the spread of technical and scientific capacity is increasing tremendously the risk of the spread of these dangerous weapons. This is a risk and a danger which everybody in the world, and certainly all major Powers in the West, have very much on their minds at present and with which they will be anxious to come to grips The third is that the cost of these new developments in the weapons systems is now getting so great that it is making a clear impact, not only on a small nation like ourselves, but on the great American resources and the great American nation, as they are beginning to have to think again about this cost of the resources that are involved, both money and material resources.
All this, I think, can easily lead to new political outlooks and new political demands that maybe would not have been made a short time ago. Yet it seems to me that there are two fresh issues that we have discussed repeatedly in the House, on which I think Her Majesty's Government have been consistently wrong ever since the present Prime Minister and the present Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations made their impact—as I believe, their disastrous impact—on defence strategy, which we have raised from this side relentlessly and continually.
The first of these is the relationship which should exist in the alliance between the member States of the alliance and specifically the arrangements for making effective that co-ordination of individual foreign and defence policies so that a common political purpose emerges. I will not go into that point now. There is plenty

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to discuss on the second one, but I want to make plain again that because I do not raise it in any detail now does not mean that I do not regard the present situation, politically, as a shambles. The lack of co-ordination of policy between members of the Western alliance is a great disaster from our point of view, and I think that it will be very difficult to take any political initiative until we sort out some of these contradictions amongst ourselves.
The second issue is the one with which I want to deal today. This is the whole purpose and the strategy of the military organisation of the alliance, together with its related issues of weapons and forces. I believe that this went wrong at the Heads of Government meeting in 1957, when the decision was taken that S.H.A.P.E.—Supreme Headquarters, Allied Powers Europe—should be provided with intermediate range ballistic missiles as part of its sphere of operations and authority. Fortunately, little, if anything, has been done—perhaps nothing has been done—since that day to give effect to that, as I believe, wrong decision. Therefore, we are able to discuss that decision in the debate today in the hope of changing the minds of Ministers about it.
Above all this relationship of weapons and forces there is the relationship of the military commanders to the political authorities and the mechanism that we shall have to have to give effect to that relationship. It is on this area that I now want to concentrate and to which our Motion is directed. Inevitably, the pattern for the next decade will be set in the next few months. It is our charge against the Government that they have given no sign of understanding of what is involved here; they give no lead from Britain to our allies on this vital issue; they accept a position vis-à-vis the Americans that is more akin to dependency than it is to allies who are interdependent, which is nearly akin to—
Mr. Harold Davies: Sycophancy.
Mr. Brown: If you like—and that Britain's own provision of forces and other weapons and equipment is signally ill-conceived for our own defence and for our rôle in the combined forces of the West.
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I hope that I have made it clear, as does the Motion, that those of us sitting on this Bench, and those for whom we speak, the overwhelming number of our colleagues in this House, and, as we believe, the overwhelming number of members and supporters of our movement in the country, continue to accept the need for the Western alliance, and also that membership of it involves obligations and responsibilities which cannot be avoided or evaded. I am clear that not to do that would lead inescapably to the destruction of the allies, and I believe that were that to happen at this time, as a single act, not accompanied by other great changes, it would, in turn, weaken immeasurably the chances of political agreement between the two great blocs in the world and thereby increase the risks of war.
It is because we believe that that we are so concerned about the defence policy of the alliance, for if the alliance is addressed to the wrong threat, if its forces and weapons are incorrectly balanced, it becomes provocative instead of deterrent, and ends up without the willing support of our peoples. Once the democratic will ceases to exist, the vital nerve has gone.
All these issues were raised in General Norstad's recent speech. Here may I pay my personal tribute to a commander with whom I have not always agreed, and, as I shall show in a moment, do not agree with a large amount of what he said in Paris. I pay my tribute to a commander who, I think, has done a notable and outstanding job in very difficult circumstances as Supreme Allied Commander in Europe. He raised these issues in a very courageous speech, and they are raised again by the reported American proposal to make I.R.B.M.'s—apparently, Polaris—carrying submarines and land-based missiles—available to N.A.T.O. Although, in this area, we are given so little information in the House, less. I rather think, than anywhere in any democratic country in the world, it is very difficult, however hard one works, burrows and delves, and talks outside the House, to be clear even now about what is proposed, and I hope that the Minister of Defence will take us a little more frankly into his confidence this afternoon.
Mr. E. Shinwell: He does not know himself.
Mr. Brown: Then let him show that. The issues are now there. In a sense, they are on the printed agenda. Only Her Majesty's Government seem unwilling, perhaps unable, to face them, to discuss them and to propose action upon them. I take, first, the weapon situation, especially in the light of General Norstad's recent speech.
I applaud some of the sentiments General Norstad expressed in that speech, about raising the nuclear threshold to higher levels, about putting much higher the level of command at which any decision to employ any nuclear weapon should be taken, and his affirmation that S.H.A.P.E. sees its task as resisting and containing any incident so as to enforce a pause and bring about deliberate consideration and decision before any further decision is taken on either side to bid the stakes up. All that I applaud the more because the first time he and I met I could not make him see the value of it at all, and I can only be rather proud of the degree of Socialist infiltration which seems to have gone on during the years in which he has been in command.
There were, however, some very unclear passages in General Norstad's speech which, in some ways, seem to contradict the very sentiments and assertions that he was expressing at the very point of stating them. For example, the passage in which he talked about the early integration of nuclear weapons into the ground forces looks very odd when read immediately alongside, as it is in the text, his assertion that that decision, too, must be reserved for a very much higher command.
In any case, sentiments are one thing. Actions and decisions are what count. I put the question straight away to the Minister: does he believe—and does the House believe—that S.H.A.P.E. has the necessary conventional forces to act in accordance with the excellent premise of enforcing a pause? General Norstad seemed to imply that his 28 divisions, possibly even 30, were coming into sight and would be sufficient for their job. We must take into account, of course, the effect of the Russian run-down in conventional forces. Let us not remain hide-bound by old intelligence appreciations that were made when the situation was different. The run-down of Russian conventional forces has great impact
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upon the risk of a surprise attack and, therefore, on the degree of preparation one has to make for it. So perhaps he is right about the 28 divisions now being sufficient.
But are those 28 divisions coming into sight? So long as the French have all their forces away, and Britain continues to fail to put its stated commitment in place in Europe, are we not merely kidding ourselves in talking about 28 divisions coming into sight?
I put to the Minister of Defence now a question which he has never answered, but which ought to be answered clearly. Can Her Majesty's Government meet their solemn obligations, given by a Conservative Prime Minister to Europe? Can they fulfil our commitment to keep a certain number of divisions there, and can we fulfil it with an Army which will fall certainly to 160,000 and which will, perhaps for some time, not be notably above that figure? Do the Government think that they can do it? If they do, I am bound to insist to the Minister that certain essential decisions have to be taken and certain things must be put in train now to enable them to do it.
For example, we could not keep four divisions, even if they be modern, pentomic, small divisions, in Europe and also, it seems to me, maintain our scattered commitments all over the globe with forces in halfpenny numbers. Far-reaching decisions must be taken, also, about the mobility of the men and their equipment, because, if we tie large numbers down on the Continent and at home, we shall face the need for very rapid movement of men and equipment if we ever need them for a temporary commitment elsewhere.
Further, decisions must be taken about their equipment and their arms, both of which at the moment, as hon. Members who have visited B.A.O.R. know, are inadequate. Next, are the Government ready to face the need to integrate British supplies and logistics for our component in the European forces within a N.A.T.O. or a S.H.A.P.E. supply system? One of the humiliating things during one of the sessions at Paris was, I understand, that we were one of the culprits singled out as one of the "bad boys", one of the reasons for failure to achieve anything at all in this matter so far.

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Above all, do Her Majesty's Government now understand and accept the financial implications of a small Army policy? It is quite clear that the present Prime Minister and the present Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, when they began this policy, did so thinking that it would also be a money-saver. Are the Government now prepared to recognise that it may be nothing of the kind because vast sums of money have to be spent in other ways to enable a small Army policy to work in this situation? My guess is that, despite General Norstad's sound political words, and his brave military assumptions, the fact is that the conventional forces just are not there for the task he was assuming.
This raises the next question. A short time ago, the S.H.A.P.E. planners thought that they could make up the deficiency by bringing in small-scale, meaning low-yield, small-size, so-called tactical atomic weapons, which would, as they thought, be politically acceptable because of their size and limitations. They now know that this is either not possible, or it will be delayed for quite a time. Is it not that which has led to the ridiculous fantasy of calling the 1,200-to 1,500-mile range missile carrying a half-megaton warhead a middle-range ballistic missile? Is it not that which has led to the attempt to find a better-sounding name so that this essentially strategic weapon can somehow be fitted into the definition of "tactical" weapon in the hope of getting away with that as well?
In my view, this is absolute fantasy. The weapon is quite inflexible. Its range cannot be shortened. Can we ever realistically talk of such a weapon with that range and size of warhead being used far inside Russian metropolitan territory and call it sometimes tactical and sometimes strategic? If we try to do that, will the Russians distinguish when it drops tactically from the occasion when it drops strategically? If they do not make the distinction, where is the pause? Where, then, is the deterrent?
In such circumstances we are right the way back to being provocative instead of being deterrent. We are right the way back to encouraging instead of warning off. It seems to me that the deployment of these weapons, for which General
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Norstad seems to be asking, and which the Americans seem to be offering—we have no information about where Her Majesty's Government stand in the matter—as part of S.H.A.P.E.'s armoury can only completely distort the strategy of S.H.A.P.E. and, so far as it does that, it will, of course, destroy the real purpose of NA.T.O and the only purpose on which willing support for NA.T.O. will be found, namely, that of a deterrent shield force.
In that light, it seems to me that the American offer of submarines to S.H.A.P.E. is extremely dangerous. One thing that we must be clear about here is the extreme looseness with which terms are used. There is talk of giving them to N.A.T.O., N.A.T.O. being a political body, a political alliance, when, in fact, what seems to be involved is giving them to S.H.A.P.E., to the military command. We really must be clear that it is to S.H.A.P.E. that they appear to be offered and, for the reasons I have mentioned, that seems to be a very dangerous business indeed.
Is it not a very good reason why these weapons of all kinds of this range and size should be outside S.H.A.P.E. as Strategic Air Command has always been outside S.H.A.P.E.—indeed, in a sense, Strategic Air Command has been outside N.A.T.O. because it is not committed there at all—and we should drop all talk of N.A.T.O. becoming a fourth Power? It seems for the reasons I have given that we should discourage this kind of loose talk.
I ask the Minister, why do Her Majesty's Government not speak up and make their views known? I can well understand that if we go into negotiations we do not disclose the hand we are negotiating about, but that is quite a different matter from issues of great principle such as this. Other Governments ought to know the stand which the House and Her Majesty's Government take in principle before the thing begins, because otherwise negotiation on these things seems to be what ought not to be encouraged and it would be so disastrous.
I have a feeling that the Government just hark back to something which I said just now, perhaps for the same financial reasons, belongs to the era of

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thought which produced the famous paragraph 12 of the first White Paper by the present Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, the first 1958 White Paper.
The Civil Lord to the Admiralty (Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing): 1957?
Mr. Brown: No. We had this once before and I think the hon. Gentleman will find that paragraph 12 is in the first 1958 White Paper. I have tried not to make the same mistake twice. I made a mistake over this once before.
I turn now from the weapon consideration's to the equally important issue of political control over these weapons within the alliance, which arises whoever nominally owns, whoever nominally provides, the weapons. It seems to me that there are four problems here. The first is to ensure that any decision on the first use by the West of any nuclear weapon is a political and not a military decision. The second one is to establish that the ultimate nuclear weapon, the H-bomb or strategic weapon, is never used first by the West. The third one is to establish that these political decisions are alliance decisions and not the decision for any one Power by itself within the alliance. The fourth is to ensure that the mechanism for these political decisions is provided in a way that is practical, effective and can work.
I shall discuss these four problems very briefly. Her Majesty's Government never seem to be sure whether they accept the principle or not and whether they are for political authority, for political decisions, or against them. We ought to have a clear answer today, which we certainly did not get the last time the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defence answered questions on this subject. It seems no use, on issues of this magnitude, danger and importance, to do word spinning, as the Prime Minister did in all that playing about with "fifteen fingers on the trigger" and an Icelandic or Luxembourg veto, or to go on asking rhetorical questions, as the Minister of Defence did. The issue is too big to permit that way of getting out of an awkward decision when giving an answer about it.
Nor is it much use to keep putting so much emphasis on the situation which might exist after nuclear war had broken
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out that we lose sight of the fact that it is a deterrent force we are talking about to deter it ever breaking out and, therefore, what exists now and will exist in the period ahead is the important issue. I think that General Norstad—and maybe other generals, but certainly the Supreme Commander—is being forced to lecture the Governments on politics, as he did in his Paris speech, precisely because the Governments themselves are abdicating their own difficult but essential political functions and taking refuge in talking about military things which are not their affair in the same way. In my view—since I have challenged that I declare it and must go on the record—it is not impossible to make a reality of political control while maintaining the credibility of the deterrent, but to do it we need a substantial and far-reaching structural reform of N.A.T.O.
We need to provide three things. We need, first, to provide a truly ministerial political council. Reliance on ambassadors and officials with no authority, having to hark back all the time, simply meeting every Wednesday morning to look at the agenda and bring forward instructions they have received from home on last week's agenda and then to adjourn to get instructions on this week's agenda, seems to make nonsense of any idea of a political council, let alone of political control.
The second thing we have to provide is a Ministerial defence council since, in the very nature of things, Defence Ministers can meet more often and, in the very nature of things, they are personally concerned and involved. We could get a lot of issues settled if we took them into their sphere. At present, they go unsettled over months and years because they are in someone else's charge.
My next suggestion may be a little more controversial and if there is a better suggestion made we should look at it, but so far I have not heard one. We should set up a political standing group roughly similar to the military standing group arrangements which have worked so well and proved so efficacious in carrying out the executive powers of the Fifteen. I see no reason to assume that what has been so successful over the years on the military side should not be done in a similar way on the political side, and I therefore recommend it.

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Of course, none of this is easy. It can be said that none of this is wholly logical, but the only wholly logical way of running a 15-nation political and military alliance would be to have a supranational body to run it. As we do not seem to be in any danger of getting that, short of that we have to get as near to a practical solution as we can and the best in this field, as so often in fields of defence, must not become the enemy of the good.
Decisions of this magnitude cannot, I repeat, be handed to the military commanders. If we do that the effect both on them and on the people in whose names it is done will, I believe, be catastrophic for the alliance and for its whole purpose. It will be so different from what folk imagined that support will be easily challenged, which to some extent is happening in this country at the moment and which I regard as bad. Here I make perfectly clear that when I talk about these decisions I am talking equally of the nuclear weapons properly committed to S.H.A.P.E., these genuinely battlefield ones, and those which I believe should be outside S.H.A.P.E., which are still alliance weapons, and the so-called strategic deterrent. All, in my view, must be subject to the political control in the way I showed earlier.
I turn, finally, to the question of the British share in the political control over the operations of missile-carrying submarines using facilities provided by us There were related issues on this which I had hoped very much to discuss, but which I regret that under our rules of order relating to anticipation I cannot discuss. I will, however, deal with the question of political control. Let me make clear, first, that I am not raising the issue of whether this new weapons system is the ultimate.
I guess that it has many advantages over previous ones, particularly in its mobility and particularly because it is comparatively invulnerable and the fact that at all material times it can be far away from our shores and our allies' shores. Its coming is a good case, incidentally, for doing what we should long since have done, removing the dangerous and obsolete Thors which we have in this country.
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In short, therefore, it seems to give us a genuinely, and obviously—which is equally important—deterrent, as distinct from a first-use, weapon; but it is not all that proved. There are obvious reservations about it. No doubt the fact that the Americans are less enthusiastic about putting land-based Polaris weapons into Europe and are thinking more in terms of Pershings is because of the disadvantages of the Polaris. For that reason, therefore, I do not think that we should regard this as the ultimate weapon.
Mr. Emrys Hughes rose—
Mr. Brown: It would be better if my hon. Friend let me finish.
I have little doubt that for some time to come Polaris will be the effective weapons system—which only serves to make more nonsense of the Government's obstinate attachment to the nonexistent Skybolt, which is now even less likely than when we discussed the problem before, in order to keep alive the obsolescent idea of a private, British independent nuclear deterrent.
Mr. Emrys Hughes rose—
Mr. Brown: I must continue.
All these facts seem to me to make it even more important that we in Britain should be fully participating in the decisions and the policy associated with the new weapons system. Again, it is not, as the Prime Minister suggested the other day in his Henry Irvine character, one question when the Polaris is in territorial waters and a different question if it is 2,000 miles away. It is also pointless to talk, as some have, about the propriety or the ability of our having, or wanting to have, a share in an American weapons system.
The fact is that these weapons depend on the Anglo-American partnership. That partnership should be a partnership of equals. Their deployment affects us both. We are each providing indispensable facilities for the other. We are both, therefore, in our view, entitled to know about and to be able to influence their deployment and their operation. I repeat, it is no use trying the reductio ad absurdum argument of talking about what happens after thermo-nuclear war has broken out. We are talking about the period from here immediately ahead.

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I see, in the present situation, no reason at all why we should not know the itineraries of these vessels. The Deputy-Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic, is today a British admiral; he has a British hat and an international hat, like the other officers. He must be in a position to know the itineraries of all sorts of vessels and the operational programmes and plans of all sorts of things. I can see no reason why the Government should not know, too.
I see no political reason why we should not be in a position to query or dispute in advance, if we feel so disposed, the itineraries of these vessels. I certainly believe that Her Majesty's Government should have insisted, when we were asked to provide British facilities for these vessels, that the political control over their operations and their deployment should be one in which we took part.
I have tried to deal only with the three or four major issues which are inescapably with us and with the alliance now. I have deliberately eschewed all others, although many of them are of great importance. This I have done because I wanted, if I could, to concentrate the attention of the House on decisions which cannot be escaped; and the consequences of failing to take them, or of failing to take the right decisions, will be as disastrous as the advantages of taking the right decision will be beneficial.
I have tried to show, I hope constructively, first, that vital changes are needed in the alliance to make its deterrent purpose clear and effective. Secondly, I have tried to offer ideas for reinforcing the political character of the alliance so that it is effectively an alliance and has no appearance at all of being just one super-State with 14 satellites.
Thirdly, I have tried to remind us of the true purpose of the alliance and its interim nature. The ultimate and desirable situation is not the present division of the world and high and developing armaments, but a world authority, plus a security force, as foreseen by those who drafted for us at San Francisco, together with effective and controlled disarmament by the individual Powers.
I have moved the Motion because we feel that the Government lack not only
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the grand vision but also the clear sight and the ability to make a reality and an acceptable fact to the interim arrangements. They will no doubt today make much of our differences on this side of the House. The nation would perhaps be better served if there were less of a monolithic, thoughtless vacuum over on that side of the House.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Before my right hon. Friend sits down—
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is evident that the right hon. Gentleman has sat down.
4.26 p.m.
The Minister of Defence (Mr. Harold Watkinson): I do not propose to go into any differences in doctrine among the Opposition. The Government have always taken the view that these are not matters for us. But that in no way justifies the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) in saying, in his closing words, that because we on this side of the House agree on what we think should be done in the world it means that we do not feel just as passionately about this question as do hon. Members opposite. Let us make that quite plain at the beginning of the debate.
The Motion was not moved in very censorious terms by the right hon. Gentleman, and it may be that there will not be such a wide measure of disagreement between us as some hon. Members below the Gangway wish. The first 22 words of the Motion are quite acceptable to the Government. As for the rest of it, I prefer to deal with the right hon. Gentleman's quite proper questions about the future of N.A.T.O. and of our deterrent policy and how we can best keep peace in the world.
First, I must say, as he said—at least we agree on this, although perhaps there are many other things on which we shall not agree—that the long-term solution is disarmament—complete and well-monitored, so that people trust it. That is the long-term solution to which we all try to work. Nobody wants disarmament more than the Government, and nobody has tried harder over the last few years to bring it about. We shall continue to do so. The Prime Minister put forward a plan at a recent meeting of the United Nations. We are only too happy to try to implement it or

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to examine anybody else's plan at any time. We intend to go on doing all that.
But it does not alter the burden which rests on a Minister of Defence and all his Western colleagues that until we can get disarmament we must play—and this country must play—our full part in maintaining the balance of force on which peace rests. This is the policy of the deterrent, both conventional and nuclear, which was started by a Labour Government under the leadership of Lord Attlee and which has been continued by successive Conservative Governments. It is on that poicy that we on this side of the House believe that peace rests until disarmament can be achieved.
The deterrent is, of course, the total military effort, and it rests, again, on the knowledge of the certainty of the destruction of an aggressor which today is inherent in nuclear warfare. I do not regard that as being a bad thing, or as a thing to be frightened of. I believe that it is, perhaps, a most important factor in the maintenance of peace and the eventual achievement of disarmament, because it is in the face of the nuclear weapon, and only in the face of the nuclear weapon, that an aggressor can realise that he cannot achieve victory in any sense of the word at all.
After all, I do not think that it is wrong, when discussing N.A.T.O. and these very grave, difficult and technical problems, that we should try to judge them by what an aggressor thinks. What we are trying to do is to stop a war starting. If a major nuclear war starts, we have all failed, and that I quite accept as being the proper position of a Minister of Defence. Therefore, we must look a little at Soviet intentions before turning to how N.A.T.O. can best meet them.
I must say again, as I said in the House not very long ago, that the Soviet Union has not disarmed, and is not disarming Mr. Khrushchev himsef emphasised only recenty that reductions in manpower in no way weakened the fire power of the Russian armed forces. Again, ony the other day, he said that the nuclear capacity now in Russian hands was adequate to wipe off the face
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of the earth any country or countries that attacked the U.S.S.R.
We do not see any reduction in the fleet of 400 and more Russian submarines, nor do we disbelieve Mr. Khrushchev's claim that he already has nuclear submarines, and that they have at least a type of missile-firing submarine. In all these things we can see no signs that the Russian position of strength is being in any way diminished.
If we were to weaken ourselves and our partners by renouncing our nuclear capacity what should we gain—what would be the force of our example? It would only give great encouragement to an aggressor. If some people think that we could in some mysterious way escape the dangers of a nuclear war, I should like to say this:
"Warfare conducted with nuclear weapons would suck the entire world into its wake. Not a single country involved in such a war would escape the ensuing crushing and devastating blows."
Those are not my words. They were written by Major-General Talensky, a prominent Soviet commentator on military affairs. That may be a hopeful sign—I believe that it is—that the Russian nation is coming to believe, as we do, that nuclear war means total destruction, and that belief may help to preserve the balance on which peace rests. I must add that, to me, this does not seem to be the right moment at which to cast away our own nuclear capacity—
Mr. Shinwell rose—
Mr. Watkinson: No, I will make my speech in the shortest time possible. I was very careful not to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper, and, before I finish, I think that I shall have answered most of the points that were put forward.
I turn now to N.A.T.O., and to the policy that Her Majesty's Government would propose for this great alliance. Of course, the main purpose of N.A.T.O. is to stop a war starting—I quite agree—and that is something that, in our view, must force a gradual change in much N.A.T.O. thinking and strategy. I agree, too—and I think that most people do who wish N.A.T.O. well—that it is a kind of miracle—and perhaps one should not always look miracles too closely in the face.

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It is certainly not a good thing continually to be taking N.A.T.O.'s temperature in public, and crying out, and wringing our hands about the disarray into which we claim N.A.T.O. has fallen. At least, N.A.T.O. has kept the peace, and that is what it is there to do. It does not seem to me to help a great deal to talk very much in public about its disastrous state, although, as I say, I do not disagree that its strategy must now be re-examined in the light of the immense growth of nuclear power on both sides of the Iron Curtain.
I think that a calm appraisal of the facts shows that there are two issues to be examined—particularly in regard to N.A.T.O. nuclear strategy—not necessarily to change them completely, but because I think that this is really the crux of the problem with which Defence Ministers and Foreign Secretaries have to grapple. First, there is the question of control, both political and military. Secondly, there is the problem, not necessarily of increasing the number of megatons but of the renewal or the keeping up to date of the means of delivery.
The right hon. Gentleman said that the Government were very vague about their desires for political control. I want to make it quite plain that we believe that political control is essential, though the right hon. Gentleman himself posed the question: can we have such a tight political control as would depreciate the credibility of the deterrent? That is a difficult problem because, as I have said before, if we wrote a rule book on the conditions in which certain orders would or would not be given we might well convince an aggressor that such an order would never be given at all, and, in that case, destroy the whole basis of the deterrent on which peace rests.
In our view, N.A.T.O. does not need so much an increase in megatons as the continued assurance that it can fulfil its military tasks. It does not, I think, want more than this or less than this, so I must begin by setting out quite briefly what its present tasks and authorities are, because I think that it will be helpful to the House. I will then explain what Her Majesty's Government think should be done about the present situation.
It was not only in 1957, as the right hon. Gentleman said, but as long ago as
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1954 that N.A.T.O. decided that nuclear weapons had to be included in its armoury. This policy was further spelled out in 1956 and 1957. I hope that it is realised that the whole of the N.A.T.O. shield and sword concepts—and there have always been both—is backed by the strategic nuclear deterrent forces that are clearly linked to N.A.T.O. by the terms of the Treaty itself.
We must remember that Article 5 of the N.A.T.O. Alliance Treaty pledges all the members to regard an attack on one of them as an attack on all. Therefore, this artificial distinction that some people try to draw, of N.A.T.O. as a kind of third or fourth independent Power, in some way divorced from America and ourselves, is not true at all. We are all pledged to go to the defence of N.A.T.O. in the case of an attack on any N.A.T.O. nation.
The present powers of SACEUR—General Norstad, who, I think, has performed a very great service to the cause of peace and of Europe in his present job—are very wide, and very much more powerful than I think many hon. Members may realise. He has a wide range of weapons—Jupiter missiles, nuclear-strike forces, including our own Canberras and Valiants, certain cruise-type missiles such as Matador, the nuclear-strike aircraft and the immense power of the American Sixth Fleet, and a large number of what one might call artillery units with nuclear capacity, such as the Corporal, Honest John, and the 8 in. howitzer.
The fact remains that the nuclear warheads are of United States manufacture. They belong to the United States Government, and American sanction is necessary before they can be delivered. Their custody and control rests, not on Presidential authority but on Congressional authority. Congress would have to alter American law if a change in the present control and custody of the American warheads were proposed. Let us be quite clear about that. It would be all very well for Her Majesty's Government to say to N.A.T.O. "You should do this, that and the other," but American law would have to be changed—and this is fundamental—if there were to be any change in the custody and present management of nuclear warheads.

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What is General Norstad's position? I want to give his own words—and I think that in this he would also speak for the Supreme Allied Commander, Atlantic—because I think that they spell out more clearly than I can how he views the present difficulties. He has said:
"All of the N.A.T.O. Forces, conventional as well as atomic, are controlled ultimately by a political authority which is, in fact, the Council, or our Governments. They are the higher political authority; and that applies to the tactical atomic weapons wherever they may be deployed and in whose hands they may be located. In addition to that, in order to ensure control of this very important weapon and, I must say, to keep faith with the Governments of N.A.T.O., I keep in my own hands under a very tight centralised control the units that are equipped to use nuclear weapons."
That is what General Norstad said and, in the Government's view, that sets out perfectly clearly what his present responsibilities are. As I said in the House a few weeks ago General Norstad accepts that he clearly requires political authority. The recent speech which the right hon. Gentleman quoted was very interesting, but I do not think that it contained anything that General Norstad had not said before at one time or another. I admit the timing probably made it very important, but it is not a new doctrine.
Against this background, what are the British Government's views? First, we welcome any proposals which strengthen N.A.T.O. and maintain the deterrent to war. I do not in any sense criticise our American friends and colleagues, but they have not provided a definitive piece of paper which we can examine. I understand that the American Secretary of State will be making a full statement at the N.A.T.O. meeting. I am not saying that we have not been generally informed as to what it may contain, but we are not in possession of any definitive form of words.
Therefore, I can only say that if the American Government were to pledge themselves at this week's meeting to retain the United States nuclear capacity in N.A.T.O. so long as this is required, we should certainly welcome it unreservedly. It meets the point the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition made in a speech in March, that some N.A.T.O. nations may feel there is a risk that America may pull out of Europe, or pull her nuclear capacity out
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of Europe and say, "Europe is not worth having a nuclear war in America for, and all our cities destroyed". That is something we should welcome. If it includes the offer of Polaris submarines which would buttress the kind of tasks at present fulfilled by the strike aircraft of the United States fleets committed to N.A.T.O., I think that we should welcome that as well. I will come back to the problem of submarines in a moment.
Our view is that whatever decisions have to be taken on missiles and the nuclear side, they must be subordinate to the carrying through of the main purposes of the alliance, because that is the job we have to do, to try to stop a war starting; to try to keep the peace in the whole of the N.A.T.O. area. I think that it is time that the whole of this strategy is reviewed again.
The right hon. Gentleman implied that both the American and British Governments had been very slow to bring their thoughts to N.A.T.O. It was Mr. Herter's proposal, which was very well received—and I was there at the time—that we should have a new long-term look at N.A.T.O.'s future. That provides, in our view, the right method of re-examining the problems which are now arising, provided that we accept that the primary purpose of N.A.T.O. is to provide the guarantee, as far as it is possible, against a war starting. That means the shield aspect of N.A.T.O. is, above all, important.
I was very glad that General Norstad felt able to say that he was somewhat more satisfied with the strength of his conventional forces and the number of their divisions. That is his view and not mine. That is General Norstad's assessment of the conventional strength of his forces.
Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept it?
Mr. Watkinson: Certainly I do.
Mr. Gaitskell: Is the Minister saying that General Norstad said that he was satisfied with the existing strength of conventional forces?
Mr. Watkinson: No. His speech has been interpreted as meaning that he has seen an increase in the number of conventional forces available under him.

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That is my understanding of the position. If that is the position, we welcome it.
Coming to the general context of this long-term review of N.A.T.O. strategy—by which I do not mean a review which takes a long time to review, but a review which covers the next five to ten years in Europe—
Mr. G. Brown: I have General Norstad's speech here. I read from the fourth paragraph, on page 36:
"Thus, I believe that our forces must have a substantial conventional capability. They must be able to operate where the military situation permits, without using arms and weapons equipped with nuclear warheads This will require shield forces of the general magnitude being provided under our present programme, a programme which I regret to say is not yet completed. I press for its completion".
Mr. Watkinson: I do not disagree with that at all. Of course, the MC.70 goals, which the right hon. Gentleman knows about, are not fulfilled. All I was indicating was that I understood that General Norstad at least felt in the last year or so that we had made some progress. He may not be satisfied.
Mr. George Wigg: This, surely, is an important point. When the right hon. Gentleman says "we", does he means Her Majesty's Government, or "we, N.A.T.O."? To put it specifically, is the increase due to the fact that the Germans are at their eighth or ninth division, whereas we are below seven-brigade group strength?
Mr. Watkinson: No, that is not the argument at all. What I say is that it is General Norstad's view that some progress has been made towards increasing the conventional shield forces.
Mr. Wigg: But he is still not content.
Mr. Watkinson: Of course he is not content, because the ultimate goal must be fulfilment of the full MC.70 requirement and that, I quite accept, has not been fulfilled.
I now turn to what should be done within this long-term view of N.A.T.O. strategy as to the whole of N.A.T.O. deterrent policy. On the nuclear side, we propose to make no proposals for changing the control and custody of warheads. Obviously, such a proposal must be made by America, because it means a change in current American legislation.
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We believe that the Polaris submarine will be a balancing factor in face of the great increase in Soviet missiles employed all round the Russian fringe territories. The Polaris submarines also strengthen N.A.T.O.'s capacity to retaliate after a nuclear aggression has taken place, as the right hon. Gentleman said, and that is a very important factor. It helps to protect the Alliance against a form of nuclear blackmail and it also makes it quite plain one can slowly move to a firmer second strike philosophy. It is certainly not an aggressive philosophy.
Mr. A. C. Manuel rose—
Mr. Watkinson: No, I shall not give way.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not the tradition of the House that Ministers elucidate points in reply to questions, or is the debate to deteriorate into a series of soliloquies and recitations?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker(Sir Gordon Touche): It is for the Minister, or any other speaker, to decide whether he will give way to an hon. Member.
Mr. Watkinson: I think the tradition of the House is that the Minister should try to make himself as plain as he can on an important matter. That is what I am trying to do. I will finish my present theme.
I have said that in N.A.T.O.'s nuclear strategy we think that the Polaris submarine probably has a place, for the reasons which I have given.
The next point is very important. None of the changes at present foreseen, in our view, gives N.A.T.O. any kind of spearate long-rang strategic rôle, nor turns it into some kind of fourth Nuclear Power. This seems to me to be the wrong way to describe the present functions of N.A.T.O. N.A.T.O. is not a nuclear Power in its own right. It is a nuclear Power because it has forces assigned to it which have different kinds of nuclear capabilities. Our view is that in this long-term examination which, we hope, will be begun at the meeting which starts next week, there will be a comprehensive examination of the purposes, control and deployment of this nuclear armoury.

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In my view, an early stage in the study would be an assessment of the magnitude of the existing nuclear capacity and its efficiency as a deterrent under existing methods of control. If such an examination revealed great deficiencies, we should obviously like to have the various ideas for a N.A.T.O. stockpile of nuclear warheads examined, also ideas for a permanent medium-range missile force within N.A.T.O., which might be the counterpart of the force which General Gale proposed, which is a kind of mobile force which comes directly under SACEUR's control.
This would mean, we think, giving more direct control to the N.A.T.O. nations of Europe over at least some of the nuclear armoury stored and disposed on their territories. That is our view, although I want to make it absolutely plain that it rests on changing American legislation. It may be said that this might most easily be done by creating a nuclear pool formed, first, from existing weapons. That seems to be something which N.A.T.O. could do almost at once if it so wished. However, these are very difficult and technical matters and they should be studied and discussed first in N.A.T.O.
I want to make only one other point on this aspect. There will be arguments about the range and lethality of various weapons, but the range of a medium-range missile depends on where it is sited. If it is sited right up on N.A.T.O.'s frontier, that is one thing If it is either at sea or well back, that provides quite a different capacity for the missile. Today, N.A.T.O. has aircraft which carry an enormous nuclear potential and which have a very long range indeed. I do not think that it is necessarily wrong that some of those at some time should be replaced by some form of missile, if the military arguments are found on that to be sound.
Anyway, the British Government do not oppose the general idea that N.A.T.O. will no doubt need some medium-range missiles as a replacement for some existing aircraft, but I do not wish to go further than this until this further detailed examination has taken place. Our view is that the future of the aircraft needs very careful examination. After all, for a democracy an aircraft is a very much more convenient
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weapon than a missile. An aircraft has the capacity of recall. It has the capacity of being poised. It can carry either nuclear or conventional explosive. Therefore, we consider that we should examine very carefully the flexibility and capability of present and future aircraft before we decide the balance between aircraft and missiles.
Then there is the question of tighter central control over the so-called artillery weapons. Lastly, there is the most difficult matter of political control. I quite like the idea, which I think that General Norstad and Mr. Spaak have spoken about, and which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, that perhaps a smaller group of N.A.T.O. nations could be charged with the task of controlling, for example, a nuclear stockpile, if one were to be set up.
Political control must certainly be maintained and strengthened to an extent which does not unduly weaken the broad deterrent strength of N.A.T.O. as a whole. If that can best be done by a smaller group than 15 nations, which involves the difficulty of 15 fingers on the safety catch, that, too, needs very careful examination.
Mr. William Warbey rose—
Mr. Watkinson: I will give way when I have finished this part of my speech.
This, again, needs a change in U.S. legislation.
As to the Defence Ministers meeting more often, Her Majesty's Government proposed that exactly twelve months ago So far, we have not had as many meetings of N.A.T.O. Defence Ministers as I should like, but I hope that we shall have more in the future.
As to integration and interdependence, it is on the initiative of Her Majesty's Government that at our meeting this week we study a definitive list of twenty projects which the N.A.T.O. Armaments Committee has drawn up as being the ones on which good progress is most likely to be made towards joint projects and interdependence.
I hope that we shall find that real progress is being made. If not, I shall certainly feel that we should say very firmly that, if we are to have interdependence, it can be judged only by real progress on limited lists of projects on which one can

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really see whether the will is there to do it. That is why we proposed a limited number of projects on which we thought that we could examine the position and see whether real progress would be made.
I do not accept for a moment the general thesis of the right hon. Gentleman that we have taken no great steps to try to press a policy within N.A.T.O., to try to make it more efficient, both as to its weapons and as to its policy, or to try to promote new ideas.
In my remarks dealing with N.A.T.O. I have not tried to answer in detail all the questions which have been posed. Those must be discussed on Friday, Saturday and Sunday by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and, to a lesser extent, myself. I hope that we shall have a meeting of the Defence Ministers in the spring at which we can carry these matters further.
When I have summed up on this N.A.T.O. point I will certainly give way to any hon. Member who wishes to query anything I have said about N.A.T.O. We have clear ideas as to how the alliance could be made more efficient and flexible and how greater political control could be achieved. I have set out some of them today. We shall try to press forward in our discussions in N.A.T.O. on the lines I have indicated.
Mr. Warbey: I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question on this vital point of political control of N.A.T.O. nuclear weapons. He suggested the possibility of a small group, not consisting of all the 15 member nations. Will he say who will be the possible members of such a small controlling group?
Mr. Watkinson: No, because that would be a decision for N.A.T.O. itself. I would not wish to propose any founder members of the club. This is a matter which N.A.T.O. must discuss, and we must reach a collective decision, bearing in mind that N.A.T.O. must work on the basis of unanimous decision.
Mr. Manuel: I want to deal with the right hon. Gentleman's assertion that, if one member of N.A.T.O. were attacked, the rest would immediately use their collective strength on behalf of the attacked nation. Some of us are very perturbed. If conflict broke out between
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China and America over Formosa, Russia would be tied to China by treaty and we have bases in Britain which are controlled solely by America. Would we be obliged to go to America's help in a Formosan conflict? Where does the right hon. Gentleman stand?
Mr. Watkinson: That only shows how unwise it is to give way, because that is the next matter to which I intended to turn my attention in my speech.
I want, first, to say a few words about British forces. I know that, on the whole, the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) want the recruitment of all-Regular forces to succeed. If they do not, they should frankly come out and say that they wish to have conscription. Then we should know where we stand. It is natural that the Opposition should be more interested in laying the odds and that I should be more interested in trying to get the recruits.
I want to make one or two points here, because this is fundamental to our position in N.A.T.O. First, I hope that the whole House accepts that it is in the national interest that we should now try to create the all-Regular forces which are obviously the right way of meeting this country's defence commitments. If we can receive broad support, I think that we can get the 180,000 men which the Army needs. I will give one or two examples to show that we are already making progress. As regards officers, the all-Regular entry to Sandhurst in 1958 was 269. In 1960, it is over 400. There is an improvement in the recruitment of apprentices which is a good sign that young people are interested in the Army. The Army intake to the Services apprentice schools is up by 250 today, which is one-fifth more than last year. In 1957, when the rundown began, there were only roughly 79,000 long-term engaged men in the Army, excluding boys and apprentices. On 1st October, 1960, there were 120,000.
So I hope that we shall be able to fulfil our necessary tasks in this way. If we do not somebody must perform the very difficult task of calling up about one man in every 50 and that one man will feel that he has been very unfairly treated. Also, we shall have to maintain a corps of about 13,000 officers and men, who will be engaged in training duties

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when they might be better engaged in more active duties. We shall press on and I hope we can fulfil our obligations in this way. At least, with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War and with other Service Ministers and Chiefs of Staff we intend to do our best.
Mr. Wigg: Before the right hon. Gentleman claims any credit—
Mr. Watkinson: I do not claim any credit.
Mr. Wigg: Before the Government claim any credit for the benefits of the change-over to a long-term engagement between 1957 and 1960 surely they must realise that by so doing they were admitting that this policy of a three-year Regular engagement has been exposed as a failure.
Mr. Watkinson: That is what I meant by saying that the hon. Gentleman was more interested in laying the odds than getting the recruits.
Now to come to the question of Polaris. I understand, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that you will rule us out of order if we go into too great detail, but I should like to answer some issues on policy raised by the right hon. Gentleman. To do that I must mention one or two of the practical facts, because they determine the policy. Let me start by saying that an increasing number of Polaris submarines, manned by the United States Navy and targeted by the United States Control Centre, at Omaha, will be at sea over the next year or so, come what may. These submarines operate in an entirely different way from any aircraft or any other weapon, because their endurance is limited only by the endurance of the men serving in them. Otherwise, their endurance is practically limitless.
There is, therefore, no reason at all, when sufficient numbers are available, why these submarines should not operate from their American east coast bases, and, no doubt, range the seas of the world from there. But in the initial phase, when the numbers are limited, as they are today, there is an advantage in being able to change the crews on this side of the Atlantic without the transversing of the Atlantic by the submarine itself. It is partly a temporary advan-
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tage, as I have said before. As the numbers increase it becomes less of a benefit, but at the moment it increases the operational efficiency of the craft by about 25 per cent.
Had we refused this facility when we were asked for it, no doubt other arrangements would have been made in some other European port. I think, therefore, as I have said before, that we were absolutely right, in the broad interests of maintaining Anglo-American Alliance and the Western deterrent and the strength of N.A.T.O., to provide these facilities.
Having done that, we first looked at the various sites everywhere in these islands and, at the same time, having said that we were willing to examine it, we had various discussions at various levels with the Americans. The Prime Minister discussed it with the President at Camp David, in March, and there followed a thorough investigation of the possible sites in the United Kingdom. It was only by the end of October that it was clear that Holy Loch was the only one that really fulfilled the very exacting requirements. Arrangements were made about technical facilities and these are being expanded and will continue until the depot ship arrives and is settled in and gets into its normal operational routine.
On the political level—this answers the point made by the right hon. Gentleman—there are arrangements covering major matters of principle worked out in a series of messages exchanged between ourselves and the United States Administration at various levels, including messages between the Prime Minister and the President. The result of this was the announcement by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in the House on 1st November. These political arrangements include joint consultation in an emergency about all facilities within our territory, which includes our territorial waters. In other words, this gives us the right of full consultation concerning all the facilities which the submarines must have to operate from this country and this side of the Atlantic from British bases. Therefore, we have full consultation and full understanding on that position.
The depot ship, and the action of the submarines in the three-mile limit, are subject to full consultation. That means

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that, if necessary, the depot ship can either be asked to change its anchorage, or to go away or anything of the kind. Having secured that, I do not see how we can have the same say outside territorial waters about what the submarines do. Here, we rely on the general co-operation—I am coming to the point made by the right hon. Gentleman—and understanding which exists between us and the United States in these matters. The original part of this is the original bomber base agreement which, I think, was signed by Lord Attlee and President Truman. This has been reaffirmed by the President of the United States in recent exchanges.
Here is the important point. To answer the general argument about whether the Russians like this or not, or whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, I will use Mr. Khrushchev's own words. He said:
"We are siting our rocket defences in such a way to ensure duplication and triplication. We are creating a system of such a kind that, if some part of the system earmarked for the retaliatory blow were put out of action, another part in a duplicating rôle could always go into action and hit the targets from reserve positions."
There could not be a better means of duplication and triplication at the moment for the Western nuclear deterrent than the Polaris submarine and to this extent it is, in my view, a greater safeguard to peace because it is clearly a second strike and a retaliatory weapon. I think it greatly diminishes the risk of a major nuclear war and does not in any way increase it. As to the treatment of equals, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, in arrangements between equals one does not always ask one's partner to spell out on a piece of paper every single possibility or rule or reason. One is inclined to say that one will accept proper working arrangements which have been in existence for a long time and have worked perfectly well.
Mr. G. Brown: They have not.
Mr. Watkinson: That is a matter of question. The party of the right hon. Gentleman conducted the original negotiations on which the bomber bases were founded.
I would sum up by saying, on the question of N.A.T.O., that we have some
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difficult discussions ahead but we shall try to support, so far as we can, every possible proposition that increases the strength of N.A.T.O. and makes it easier for N.A.T.O. to extend the deterrent balance on which our position rests until disarmament can be achieved. In that, we shall try to give a lead in every way we can.
As to the broader issue of the entrance of this new weapon, the Polaris submarine, in N.A.T.O., we believe it to be, on the whole, an advantage to N.A.T.O., because it is a second strike weapon and it buttresses the United States Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean, or wherever it may be used, because it is primarily and, above all, a second strike weapon.
As to the question of Polaris submarines here, I think we were entirely right to give the Americans the facilities for which they asked and which helped them over the growing phase of the entrance of this new weapon. Of course, it is not invulnerable and, of course, in a year or so there may well be a complete answer to it, I do not know. That is some answer to the right hon. Gentleman when he talks about any kind of missile in the future tense. These things change. All we can hope to do is to maintain our contribution to the deterrent, as we are certainly doing today.
I do not accept for a moment the assertion by the Leader of the Liberal Party, in the first part of his Amendment, that we have not got a deterrent today at all. If the hon. Gentleman would like to come to Bomber Command, I shall be happy to offer him the facilities, and if he comes away and says that we are not making a powerful contribution to the deterrent he will not have paid much attention to what he will have seen there.
Mr. Grimond: I did not propose to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman on that matter, but since he has raised the question, can he say this? If Britain gave up her independent nuclear deterrent tomorrow, would the likelihood of war be any more likely or would the balance between East and West be disturbed in the slightest? His argument about the second strike weapon would be compelling if the intention of the Government were to remove the fixed rocket

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bases. Many of us feel that there is a danger that Polaris will be added to these bases. Can he assure us that, if Polaris proves satisfactory, it is the intention of the Government eventually that fixed bases should be removed?
Mr. Watkinson: I am not sure what the hon. Gentleman means by "fixed bases". If he means the Thor missile, that becomes obsolescent about the time scale when the Polaris submarine will have attained a fairly reasonable number of operations. It first becomes obsolescent and then it becomes obsolete.
Hon. Members do not get out of their nuclear dilemma by pretending that certain things which are inconvenient to them do not exist. The Thor missile, at this stage, is making a most important contribution to the deterrent. Whether it will do that in 1965 is quite a different matter, but, frankly, I am concerned with what an aggressor thinks of the British deterrent in 1960 as well as what he will think of it in 1965.
To sum up, in N.A.T.O. we will try to give a lead in the way I have indicated. I think that in the Polaris submarine we have the best and most efficient working arrangement which could be achieved. We are quite prepared and content to stand on it. As to the broader issue of deterrent policy, the Government are making a vitally important contribution to the deterrent strength of the West, and I do not think that that is now seriously challenged anywhere. If we cast it away, nobody would be delighted except a few people who might get out of a political dilemma, and particularly an aggressor, who would realise that the West had been materially weakened. We therefore intend to maintain it.
We on this side of the House have our feelings and our consciences, perhaps the more so because, for the time being, we bear the responsibility. We are not in any doubt as to what the result of a major nuclear war would be to our country, to our civilisation and to the Russian civilisation, because this is entirely a mutual thing. We honestly and sincerely believe that the only way to hold this balance of terror, or force, or whatever one may call it, is for this country to continue to shoulder its responsibilities as the Government have outlined
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them today. We believe that that is an essential contribution to the peace of the world.
That does not mean for a moment that we will not try our best to get on with disarmament and to lead the nations towards a saner and happier world. But do we do that from the right basis if we are seen to cast aside our responsibilities, to be afraid to pay the price for reasonable forces and to play our full part in our alliances? I do not believe that any Minister of Defence or Foreign Secretary could stand at this Box with any honesty and say, "I believe in disarmament and hope for a more peaceful world" is he was not prepared to do the more unpleasant part of the job. That the Government intend to carry out, and we are content to leave it to the judgment of the world and of the country whether we are playing our right part for peace or not.
5.13 p.m.
Mr. Michael Foot: Perhaps the House will permit me one personal comment. The death of the previous Member for Ebbw Vale was an immeasurable tragedy for the party to which I belong, for the House of Commons and, I believe, for the whole world. For many people, and particularly for a few in this House, that wound is still open. No one could be more conscious than I am of my unfitness to represent the constituency which he made famous in the manner he did. There are also other wounds, but our task is to bring life to the living and to guard the future of all humanity. That is what the debate is about.
I have listened very carefully to the two speeches which we have had this afternoon, particularly to the sections of them dealing with the question of political control. I think that what was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr G. Brown) might be summarised in this way. He said that political control over these terrible weapons is essential but we certainly have not got it Then I think that what the Minister of Defence said might be summarised in these words. He said that political control over these terrible weapons is essential, but we certainly cannot have it. It seems to me that that was his reply. In view of the very powerful strictures of my right hon.

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Friend on the present system of control, we are entitled to look at the present situation and to consider not what is the control to be exercised in some fanciful future when General Norstad has yielded to further pressure from my right hon. Friend, but what is the position today.
One of the most sinister features of our society induced by the invention of these weapons is that political control, and, even more, anything which can properly be described as Parliamentary or democratic control, is corroded almost to the point of extinction. When this country went to war in 1914, in 1939 or in Korea this House was able to meet and to weigh the great issues involved. That can never happen again in a worldwide conflict according to the conditions which have so far been accepted by this House. I do not think my right hon. Friend would suggest that, although he argues that the Polaris weapon introduces a new factor into the situation. Maybe it does in a matter of minutes, but I do not think that my right hon. Friend would suggest that this weapon gives Parliament the opportunity to be able to debate the matter. It is the essence of the nuclear strategy that the decisions which govern all our lives shall be taken by a very few people, possibly even by one man. That is the very opposite of liberal or democratic debate.
Therefore, on the supreme question of all supreme questions, we have accepted the notion of dictatorship, and even dictatorship by a foreign Power. This astonishing statement of our condition today is little more than a platitude.
Mr. David Price: Rubbish.
Mr. Foot: The hon. Gentleman should listen to his own Prime Minister. Even in the short space of time that I have been back in this House, I have heard the Prime Minister state this, even more clearly than the Minister of Defence, in what can almost be described as crude and blunt terms—a remarkable achievement for such a master of sublime and sophisticated obfuscation. He has done it twice. On two occasions I have heard the Prime Minister say in the past fortnight or three weeks that there is one requirement above all others which must be met, something upon which the whole of his strategy and policy hinges, The Minister of Defence
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said pretty well as much this afternoon, although some of his hon. Friends have not understood what he was saying.
The Prime Minister says that, above all else and at all costs, the credibility of the deterrent must be kept burnished and unmistakable. If that is the case, it means that at the final moment of crisis all the shackles of control and consultation have to be swept aside. [Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite have not thought about these things although they have been voting for them. What it means is that the Government and the Minister of Defence say that the maintenance of the credibility of the deterrent must be put before all other claims, even the claim of this country to be a democracy or even the claim that we should govern ourselves through Parliament. [Interruption.] That cannot be misrepresentation. It is no wonder that hon. Members opposite are so monolithic. They do not even listen. It is no wonder that the Minister of Defence is able to boast that he has them all behind him, because they do not even listen to what he says. I notice that hon. Members in the backwoods opposite jeer at me, but the Minister of Defence does not deny what I say, because that is exactly what he said.
Mr. Watkinson indicated dissent.
Mr. Foot: Oh, yes, he did. He said that the maintenance of the credibility of the deterrent was paramount. Now it is not to be paramount. This disease which comes from the back benches is contagious and it has spread to the Government Front Bench. That was what the Minister said. [Interruption.] I will make my speech in my own way. It is useless for hon. Members to deny that the maintenance of the absolute credibility of the deterrent robs Parliament of control over these machines.
Mr. Stephen McAdden: Why did the hon. Member support it?
Mr. Foot: Whether I supported some, thing or not, I am simply talking about the facts. These are facts. Anybody who thinks that in the case of these weapons being let off at a critical moment, hon. Members opposite could be summoned together to decide whether the weapon would be used, cannot even have begun to study the problem.

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Moreover, even if one descends from the question of the use of the weapon at the peak moment of crisis to lesser events—the so-called normal circumstances—we have not had anything like the amount of control that we should have done. We have had incidents repeated exposing the situation three or four times. In the case of the U.2 flight, the case of the RB.47 flight, the case of the world-wide alert before the Summit or in the case even of the Polaris affair more recently, the same procedure has been followed. It is discovered that the process of consultation has not worked. There are quick exchanges between Washington and London. Consultations take place, assurances are given and a report is made to the House of Commons that the Prime Minister is absolutely satisfied with the situation but that it would not be in the public interest to divulge exactly what the agreement about consultation has been. This has been the experience on a number of occasions.
If hon. Members care to turn to consider what is the control over the N.A.T.O. machine, which has been one of the principal subjects of debate in this House, the same fact emerges. We had a recapitulation by the Minister of Defence of General Norstad's description of the position. There was, however, an article in the Guardian a few days ago by that newspaper's defence correspondent. Here my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper will probably agree with me, because this is one of the points of his attack. The defence correspondent of the Guardian said of N.A.T.O. that
"At present the alliance has little idea how it would go to war and who would make the decisions. If serious fighting broke out over Berlin, or in Greece or Turkey or Norway, who would decide what weapons would be used? And, in particular, who would determine when nuclear weapons would be used, how many would be used, of what type and against what targets?"
The article goes on in answer to those questions:
"There are no known answers to these questions."
The Minister of Defence may say, if he wishes, that this article in the Guardian written by a highly reputable defence correspondent, is rubbish. I notice that the hon. Members opposite who a few moments ago were jeering so loudly are
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not jeering so much now. I dare say they have a few jeers left. That, however, is the description of the present situation by the defence correspondent of the Guardian.
If the Minister of Defence has facts which can disprove that picture of the helplessness of our position, he should give a much fuller account to the House of Commons; he should give his reply to those questions that were put by the Guardian's defence correspondent. He should give a much fuller account to the House altogether of what is the chain of command, if there is such a well-understood and well-established chain of command, to disprove those assertions. My fear is that what the Guardian's correspondent said is all too true. If it is true, it is further proof of how control over life and death matters has been removed from Parliaments, and even from Governments, into the hands of military commanders.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper said that the proper remedy for this disease was to get much better control and much better forms of consultation. That is certainly a commendable desire. He and others, however, must face the fact that it may be unattainable because of the nature of the beast, because of the essential core of the nuclear strategy. Indeed, the Minister of Defence himself almost said as much. The more one increases the measure of control, the more one may blunt the effectiveness of the deterrent. Therefore, although I do not think there is any harm in going on trying, it may be almost impossible to secure any form of democratic, Parliamentary or even political control over these weapons.
If that is the case, it makes all the greater the responsibility of this House to discuss these defence questions in the greatest detail. There seems to be some resentment on the other side of the House that we are discussing them in such detail. In the speech of the Minister of Defence during the debate on the-Address in reply to the Queen's Speech, he seemed to be saying that it would be much better if these matters were not fully debated in this House. I take a very different view. I certainly do not think that the obligations of Members on the Government side are discharged in such a vital matter as this by saying

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that they are always prepared to accept on trust what is said by the Prime Minister or by the Minister of Defence on these matters of consultation. I equally do not think that hon. Members on this side would be discharging their obligations in this respect if they said that these difficult and delicate matters should all be settled and slurred over in a private meeting upstairs.
Indeed, one of the main reasons for the strength of the campaign for nuclear disarmament outside this House is that it represents a surge of democratic protest against the system of dictatorship controlling our destinies which appears to have been too tamely accepted in too many quarters.
There is another factor in the situation which adds greatly to our peril. Not only is the authority of Parliaments impaired to increase the authority of the military machines, but the military machines have a momentum of their own. The weapons are very often in command. I dare say that in the days of gunpowder or of the invention of bows and arrows, this affected which tribes or nations became aggressive or stayed on the defensive. More than ever before in history, however, I should have thought that anyone would agree that the weapons are now almost indisputable masters, not only over the field of strategy and tactics, but over the field of policy itself.
We have to remember what happened in the lengthy and tortuous negotiations about stopping H-bomb tests. In the case of each country, the United States, the Soviet Union and, I am sorry to say, of this country also, the question of the military advantage which they would secure by going on with yet another test was made superior to the question of calculating whether they could get a settlement. That was an example of the weapons ruling the policy. It has been the same at pretty well every disarmament negotiation. Who will deny that the choice of moments for negotiation, or the choice of issues for negotiation, has very often been determined by the respective calculations of the Russians, the Americans and ourselves of how a particular settlement at such a time would still leave them free to steal a military march on their opponents?
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Time and again this has happened. Therefore, I say that these military machines not only have much more power but they have a momentum of their own which constantly interferes with the selection of the right moments for political negotiation. It is the combination of these factors which makes me so impatient with those who talk in terms—as the Minister of Defence almost talked this afternoon—of the balance of terror, the nuclear stalemate, protecting us, as if the horrific nature of these weapons had somehow brought the possibility of universal peace within our grasp. If that were true, and anybody believed it, it would be a case against all forms of disarmament, unilateral or multilateral. I see that the noble Lord the hon. Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinching-brooke) appears to agree with that proposition. He has the honesty to say this, but the others have not.
The Minister of Defence today seemed to boast—and I would not like to accuse him of thinking it but his appearance suggested that he believed he was making a clever point—how we axe doing in Europe exactly what Khrushchev is doing in Russia and how we shall soon have the deterrents in triplicate and this will make the position much more secure. If that were true, it would be an argument against all forms of real disarmament. But, of course, it is not true. Even the statesmen themselves do not believe it, partly because of the dangers of accidents. We are not weighing in this balance of terror lumps of sugar in the scales. It would be much truer to say that we are hurtling toward collision in nuclear juggernauts.
There may have been cases in the past when arms races were stopped by a last-minute awakening of wisdom, though I cannot recall such cases. But this is an arms race of such a different kind from any that we have had before, in the sense that nations are spending huge amounts more of their wealth proportionately on these weapons and they are giving proportionately hugely greater powers to the military machine. Therefore, this is a much more dangerous arms race for these reasons, apart from the menacing character of the weapons themselves.
This brings me to the main point under discussion in the debate—the immediate

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proposals of General Norstad. The Minister said that he would tell the House what was his attitude to all of them, but he did not do it very clearly. But by way of introduction to the proposals by General Norstad, I should like to quote from an article written by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) in March, 1960, for a paper called very appropriately, the New Leader, an American journal. He wrote an article on the whole question of N.A.T.O. strategy in Europe. I do not quote the article to score a point against him, even if I were capable of such an Homeric feat. I quote it because it outlines a much more sensible policy than that which General Norstad is proposing or the policy that the Minister supported today.
The article was headed: "A Non-Atomic Strategy for N.A.T.O.", and my hon. Friend went on to say:
"Everyone knows that the main danger of war in Central Europe arises not from a deliberate Soviet attack but from a confused local situation produced perhaps by a rising, as in Budapest or Poznan in 1956, or East Berlin in 1953. For such a situation N.A.T.O.'s current posture is suicidal."
My hon. Friend went on certainly to advocate a check on the supply of nuclear weapons to Europe, and one might even read the article as proposing a completely non-nuclear strategy for N.A.T.O.
It was a good proposal. It was a move in the right direction. The first thing that I would say about it is that it went a good deal further than even the Opposition's Motion today and was a good deal stronger than what is called an "undue reliance" on nuclear weapons. The second thing I would say about it is that what my hon. Friend was proposing—though I know that he would not like to use the term because it is a dirty word—was a measure of unilateral disarmament, in the sense that he was proposing that Western Europe should voluntarily limit the amount of nuclear weapons it should have even though no prior multilateral agreement with the Russians had been agreed. The proposal therefore was saying that Germany, France and many other countries in Europe should be very restrained in having these weapons. I do not see how we can persuade them to be restrained
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if we are to build up ours, but let that pass. But I should like to compare the proposals made by my hon. Friend, which have been made by others, with the proposals of General Norstad. Now we have had many confusing accounts of General Norstad's proposals.
Mr. Denis Healey: I am very grateful for the publicity that my hon. Friend is giving me today, but is he not aware that the proposals that I included, perhaps prematurely in this article, form the main body of the proposals of the Labour Party Executive and the T.U.C. General Council which he himself has been strenuously fighting for the last twelve months?
Mr. Foot: As I said earlier, I do not think that the proposals that were included in the official statement—now the unofficial statement—were anything like as progressive and far-sighted as those in my hon. Friend's article. But there is the further answer to this interruption, and I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for interrupting, that in the official statement, or at least in many of the speeches supporting it, it was almost demanded that we should give unqualified support to N.A.T.O. Therefore, we were to give unqualified support to a body or alliance whose current strategical posture, according to my hon. Friend, is suicidal. I am not in favour of giving unqualified support to an instrument or an alliance which is pursuing suicidal policies. It is better to try and change them.
My hon. Friend knows very well that the article was headed, "A Non-Atomic Strategy for N.A.T.O." Is that what the Opposition proposes in their Motion? It talks about "a due balance". That is a rather different wording, and the Leader of the Opposition knows perfectly well that the proposal that he is putting in the Motion is one that was defeated at the Scarborough conference of the Labour Party.
However, what does General Norstad propose? We have had many confusing statements about what he is putting forward. I shall not say anything about the sketchy proposals for new forms of political control or even the sketchy proposals for making a fourth atomic Power, which I gather nobody supports.

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That is not the real core of what General Norstad has been advancing. The Times of yesterday or a day or so ago gives an account of what the United States Government will propose at the N.A.T.O. meeting later this week, and it says:
"The United States proposal, so far as is known, will follow the advice given to the United States Government by its Chiefs of Staff, that Nato's medium-range nuclear weapons (Jupiter missiles and medium-range bombers or fighter-bombers) be reinforced by mobile intermediate-range missiles. It will, therefore, offer a number of Polaris submarines and later possibly a number of land-based Polaris missiles for European defence, without, however, making any new proposal on their control."
In other words, all these misty ideas of a new N.A.T.O., or the grandiose vision of an Atlantic Union—if I am allowed to mention that phrase—all add up to General Norstad's proposals for piling up more and more nuclear weapons in Europe. My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper went very far in condemning this. I was glad to hear it. He said that this was extremely dangerous and that we might make, by this means, the Alliance more provocative than a deterrent. That is strong language. [Interruption.] He says that it is not strong language.
Mr. G. Brown: I said that it has always been my view. There is nothing new in this.
Mr. Foot: If it is the case that the Government are accepting these proposals, or are to back them, and, therefore, the N.A.T.O. alliance, according to my right hon. Friend's definition will become more provocative than deterrent, then that surely will be a very serious situation.
The Minister of Defence tried to slur it over. It is a serious and dangerous proposition, partly because of the military reasons already advanced but partly for political reasons. Think of the timing of it. What an ironic disaster it would be if the response of the West to the new developments that have been taking place in the East—the meeting in Moscow—is an intensification of the arms race in Europe on a scale which, as my right hon. Friend says, would make the N.A.T.O. alliance more provocative than deterrent. What an appalling way it would be of dealing with this new international situation.
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Moreover, this proposal cuts across what I think to be the simplest, the most intelligent and the most workable proposal which has come from the East to the West over the years—the Rapacki Plan. This was a plan for keeping nuclear weapons out of a nuclear-free zone before nuclear weapons were put there. The American Government turned it dawn flat, and the British Government followed suit because, they said, it would not deal with conventional weapons. When the Polish Government said that it would bring into the plan later proposals for controlling conventional weapons, that also was turned down flat.
Yet if we are to go ahead with the proposals for putting these Polaris machines all over Europe, or stuffing Europe with more and more nuclear weapons, then it will be very difficult to retrace our steps back to the point when the Rapacki Plan was put forward. Which does Europe want? The Rapacki Plan or the Norstad Plan? Members opposite may say that they want the Norstad Plan. If that is so, they are voting and working for, and are eager to see, an intensification of the arms race in Europe, because that is what the Norstad proposals really mean. They cannot deny the simple fact that if they pile more and more weapons into Europe they will increase the pace of the arms race.
If we pile more into Western Europe, the Communists will pile more into Eastern Europe, and that will increase the pace of the arms race. The question is whether we are to halt that state of affairs. Time and again, in the difficulties which the world has had in dealing with this problem, there seems to have been no intelligent balance made between the assumed military risks of causing a halt in the arms race and the undoubted political risks of forcing the pace.
Those of us who believe in nuclear disarmament believe that part of the reason for this failure is the fatalistic obsession with the nuclear strategy. If hon. Members cherish the great deterrent, if they say, as the Prime Minister says, that the maintenance of the credibility of the deterrent must take precedence over all other claims, then political judgment becomes clouded.
Many countries do not have nuclear bases on their soil and do not have

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this obsession with sustained nuclear armaments, and they make saner and wiser contributions in the councils of the world than we do. That is one of the reasons why some of us are in favour of getting rid of these weapons.
But, of course, although we would like to see the repudiation of this strategy altogether, that does not mean that we would not welcome a retreat from it as a start. Therefore, if the Government, instead of going to Paris to support these proposals, as the Minister said today that they intended to do, said instead that they would call a halt now, particularly in view of the factors in the international situation described by my right hon. Friend they would be giving a lead to Europe. But they cannot do that, partly because they have already accepted Polaris.
It is not much use the Minister of Defence going to Paris and saying that the Government do not want the others to have Polaris in Europe while we are to have it in Holy Loch. When the Prime Minister made his agreement about Polaris in the United States, did he know about all these later proposals for putting these machines all over Europe? Had he considered the political implications? Had he considered that it would mean a new screw in the arms race, that it would make negotiations more difficult, that he would be once more slamming the door on the possibility of opening negotiations?
Those of us who think that we can negotiate have put down an Amendment to the Motion, and we have every right to do so. As I said when my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench complained about our putting down this Amendment, it tries to outline our idea of repudiating the nuclear strategy. They have no right to complain because, when they put down their Motion, it was one which no one who supported the new policy decided at Scarborough could possibly vote for.
I think that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition will be able to clear up this matter very well when he comes to reply, because I am sure that he will say that his Motion is absolutely consistent with the defence policy which he subscribed to before, and fits in with the strategy he himself outlined of fight
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ing against the Scarborough decision of the Labour Party. The matter can be cleared up in that way.
The rest of us are going to go on expressing our ideas. So long as we look at this scene and witness the insanities induced by the nuclear strategy; so long as we see influence over our affairs progressively removed from democratic assemblies; so long as we see the command over our policies removed to another nation—one which has surrendered a great deal of civilian power into military hands—so long as we see the military Frankensteins assuming authority not merely to dictate defence programmes but also foreign policy, the more we will be convinced that there is no military way of checking these dangers, much less a military solution for them.
The only solution to this problem lies in the field of foreign policy, but our possibilities of developing a new foreign policy are stultified by our defence policy and by our increasing reliance for the pre-eminent weapons on another nation. That prevents us from having the foreign policy that might provide the only solution. But, fortunately for the honour of this country there is a great and growing number of people throughout the land who are protesting against the policies pursued by the Government, sometimes supported by the official Opposition, who are protesting against the suffocation of democratic responsibilities which goes on in this matter, and they have every right to do so. We who agree with their views have every right and, indeed, every duty to state our views on the Floor of this House, the most famous Parliamentary assembly in the world.
5.51 p.m.
Mr. Nigel Birch: I am sure that the House would wish me to extend our sympathy to the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot) on the loss of his father. I think that he is too good a trouper to resent it if, in spite of that, I make some criticisms of his speech. I intend to make a very short speech, mostly on the subject of the control of weapons in N.A.T.O., but I will make one or two comments on what the hon. Member said.
To argue against the unilateralist case is a work of supererogation, because it has been done with devastating clarity by

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the right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) in his Fabian pamphlet, in which he demolished all their arguments. I do not think that anything said by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale would cause him to alter anything that he wrote.
The trouble about unilateralists is that they never follow anything through to a logical conclusion. All that the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale did today was to list a great many of the dangers and inconveniences of matters as they stand today, dangers and inconveniences which we all admit, but without offering any connected thought about what should be done about them.
If the Amendment which he is sponsoring means anything, it means that we should renounce our own nuclear arms and contract out of N.A.T.O. In the speech which the Leader of the Opposition made at Scarborough, and which I had the pleasure of hearing, the right hon. Gentleman said that the most likely consequence of that would be that America would go in with the West Germans and try to build them up as the dominating Power in Europe. I do not believe that they would do that, and the right hon. Gentleman may not believe it himself. I think that he said that probably because on the Left there is constant pressure and attack against Germany and a constant wish to isolate her. The right hon. Gentleman may have thought that he would pick up a vote or two on the margin by making that suggestion.
My own view is that if we leave N.A.T.O. America will leave Europe. What would be the situation then, with America out and with ourselves disarmed—because a unilateralist Government would take our atomic weapons away—and with Germany isolated? The three great objectives of the Soviets since the war would have been accomplished, objectives supported, as in duty bound, by every fellow traveller and Communist in the country. That would be the world which would emerge; no resistance to Russia would be possible.
Unilateralist Members opposite say that that would be all right and that we would be in a splendid position, because, as neutrals, we could mediate between the two great Powers. But mediation involves a balance, and there would be
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no balance in Europe. The Americans would say that they were not interested in Europe any more and that they were out for good. Russia is very interested in Europe; and we all remember that Mr. Khrushchev is very fond indeed of threatening to drop nuclear rockets upon people. I have never heard any unilateralists objecting to those threats. They must have done so in honour, but I have never had the good luck to hear them. I suggest that the reason they have taken these threats so calmly is that they are basking comfortably under the American umbrella. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale would say that this was a matter for liberal debate. Mr. Khrushchev's answer would be, "Liberal debate? Your Foot!"
Mr. K. Zilliacus rose—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Kindergarten stuff.
Mr. Birch: I now turn to the main part of my speech, which concerns General Norstad's speech and next week's meeting of N.A.T.O. I was very glad that General Norstad once again laid stress on the importance of the shield, the importance of having good and well-equipped conventional forces. This is a subject on which I have often addressed the House. I will not hack through the arguments again, but I am very glad to think that the Opposition are coming around to the point of view which I have so often expressed. They are learning all the time and I am very glad of it.
I also agree with General Norstad that it may well be necessary to have missiles of the Polaris type, that is to say, mobile missiles, in Europe, for the very reason that everyone has suggested—that these weapons are second strike weapons and, therefore, give us the means of keeping our deterrent in being even if the enemy attacks first. They therefore diminish the temptation of any aggressor to make the first strike.
However, the presence of these missiles in Europe raises difficult questions of command and control. The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) touched on one or two of them, although in a slightly confusing way. It is perfectly true that to look upon a missile with a

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range of 1,000 miles as a tactical weapon is odd, and that to regard a missile with a range of 1,500 miles as tactical is odder still, and that to look on a missile with a range of 2,000 or 2,500 miles as tactical is plain nonsense. What we ought to try to do—and where we might be able to simplify our problem—is to draw a comprehensible line between tactical and strategic weapons, and then divide the command and control.
One probably has to admit, although I do it with great bitterness, that troops in forward areas must now have small-scale tactical atomic weapons. I mean that they should have weapons like the Corporal, or weapons with a range of not more than 100 miles, or at the most 150 miles, and with not a very high yield. Such weapons must be under the command and control of the Supreme Allied Commander, but the other weapons should not be under his control. The danger of putting what are really strategic weapons under the Supreme Commander's hands is that, if they are let off, the escalation has already taken place, and the main decision has been taken.
I believe it to be militarily sound to take away the strategic weapons while leaving the Supreme Commander the tactical weapons, so that the strategic weapons are under a different command and control, acting in support of the Supreme Commander, but not under his command. That is not a very revolutionary proposal. The Strategic Air Forces of America and Britain are not under his command and, in the last war, the strategic air forces were not under the command of General Eisenhower in Europe, or Field Marshal Alexander in the Mediterranean. There is nothing odd about this proposal, but if that comprehensible decision is made certain advantages flow.
First, it seems to me that the Supreme Commander will have enough to do fighting his own battles. In the confusion and excitement of the battle he is not the best man to give advice to the politicians who will make the ultimate decision. He will have his hands full. It seems to me, therefore, that it would be far better to let him fight his battle. Secondly, it would facilitate political control if the military advice which the politicians received came from
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a commander whose forces might not at that stage be engaged and who was, therefore, in a position to take a much more cool and objective view of the situation.
The third advantage it would have would be immensely to cut down the risks of escalation. It will probably be impossible to get explicit agreement with the Russians about what is a tactical weapon, but, on the other hand, I do not think that it will be difficult to get an implicit agreement, and that might mean much to the world.
I do not want to discuss how this division could take place, and how control will be worked out, because it is a big question. It would take some time to consider, and I know that other hon. Members wish to speak. I think that there will be great difficulties, but I do not consider that those difficulties are insuperable. I would, therefore, like to ask my right hon. Friends who will be attending the N.A.T.O. meeting, and working on this matter in the next few months, to give some attention to this and to ask their military advisers to consider it and see whether some good might not come out of it.
6.3 p.m.
Mr. J. Grimond: I join the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) in offering my sympathy to the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot) on the sad death of his father. May I also say a word of welcome on the hon. Member's return to the House of Commons. I hope that I will not do him irreparable harm by saying that he once was a Liberal, and obviously maintains an admiration for liberal debate.
The Motion of the Official Opposition does not make it clear whether those who signed it are now proposing to give up once and for all the independent British deterrent. In the spring they abandoned it because Blue Streak was a failure.
Mr. Shinwell: It has been settled.
Mr. Grimond: If the right hon. Gentleman says that it has been settled, I am glad to hear it, but is it? For practical reasons the present deterrent is thought to be obsolescent and Blue Streak is not available. It is on these grounds only,

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apparently, that the Opposition gave up their policy. If this country developed or were offered a suitable deterrent weapon, would hon. Gentlemen revert to their previous belief in an independent British deterrent?
When I put forward their present policy, and when the right hon. Gentleman on the Opposition Front Bench was defending the independent British nuclear deterrent, our policy, which they have adopted, was said to be not only impracticable, but immoral. They accused us of putting it forward from the worst of motives.
I should like to look at the realities of the present situation. I think that there is very little chance indeed of any overall disarmament in the near future. I also think that there is a very little chance of a world authority which will be capable of enforcing peace between the major nations.
That brings me to ask: what is the purpose of our Armed Forces today? Are they intended to fight a nuclear war against Russia? I do not think that such a war is in the least likely so long as there is some overall balance of deterrents, both nuclear and conventional, between East and West as a whole. It is noticeable that the great nuclear powers are becoming very chary about being involved in any situation which might lead to nuclear war. It is noticeable, too, that this is true of areas which are not covered by alliances. In the Middle East and the Congo the remarkable thing is not that Russia has made so much trouble—though she has made some—but that she has made so little. The reason is that she does not want to get into a situation which might start off a trail which will lead to nuclear war. The lesson I draw is that the present American-Russian balance is good enough. It may be an imperfect balance, but I do not think that that matters.
That brings me to the point I want to make about the independent British deterrent. It may add something to the Western deterrent, as the Minister of Defence is constantly saying, but not enough to make any significant difference. I do not think that anyone considers that if we gave up our independent deterrent the balance of power
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between East and West would be upset, or that the danger of war would grow.
I strongly suspect, as do many hon. Members opposite, that it is maintained for out-of-date reasons of national prestige, and, of course, it makes nonsense of all that the Prime Minister says about interdependence. We are always having interdependence in general rammed down our throats, but it is never practised in any particular matter by this Government. I still have no doubt, as I have said for years, that we should abandon this independent deterrent
What, then, should we do? Should we take up unilateralism? I understand by that that we should not only give up our own nuclear weapons, but that we should get out of any alliances which are dependent on them and rely entirely on conventional arms. Of course, if America continued to throw her shield over Europe in spite of the dissolution of N.A.T.O., I think it very likely that the Russians would not move. As I say, they have not moved in the Middle East, although there is no effective alliance there.
However, this can hardly be what those who support unilateralism on moral grounds have in mind, because they have moral scruples against any form of reliance on nuclear weapons, yet, curiously, they seem to contemplate resistance by our conventional forces alone, not backed by nuclear weapons. This seems to me an indefensible position. It seems to me that the Russians would use nuclear weapons if they were free from any threat of retaliation, and would simply end the war by using sufficient nuclear weapons to bring the enemy to their knees.
Mr. S. Silverman: How does the hon. Gentleman know that?
Mr. Grimond: By reading what the Russians say and considering what the Americans did to Japan. On the other hand, if unilateralists do not contemplate committing conventional forces against the Russians, what is the point of having these conventional forces? It would be fax better to have nothing but a police force.
I believe that the argument for unilateralism leads directly to pacifism. There is a very strong case for pacifism. It is a simple case based on this, that the

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risk, not the certainty, of the Russians or any other aggressive nation coming here is more acceptable than the risk of nuclear war. It is time that we met this argument, because it is a serious one, and I am glad to have a debate in which it can be raised.
I feel that the arguments against pacifism are strong. First, the deterrent does stop war: it is effective. I have asked before, and I ask hon. Gentlemen again, if they can really say that, supposing that the Japanese had had an effective nuclear weapon with which they could have retaliated on New York, the Americans would have bombed them? Suppose Hitler had nuclear weapons before the war. I sometimes wonder what hon. Gentlemen would have said in those days.
Another powerful argument against pacifism is that if we were now to abandon all nuclear weapons we should throw away any chance of arms control and disarmament. At present, there does seem a chance that both Russia and America realise, in the famous phrase, that "enough is enough". They are not making an all-out effort for superiority, and, if they are not disarming, at least they are toying with the idea of control and inspection.
All that would vanish if we suddenly unilaterally disarmed. One thing is certain about the Communists. They believe, I am afraid, not in sweet reason, but in force. If they are to disarm, they will do so because they see an advantage in doing so, and if the West is already disarmed what possible advantage could they get?
Should Britain, then, support the arming of N.A.T.O. with nuclear weapons? Certainly, there is no conceivable hurry for doing any such thing and I was glad to hear the Minister of Defence say that in his view the negotiations that were to start this week are a long-term business. We must get away from the idea that there is any need for a crash programme—for giving nuclear weapons to N.A.T.O. at once, or pouring more nuclear weapons into Europe at all.
On the other hand, I was slightly astonished by this talk of the American veto—of the impossibility of making any decision, or putting forward any proposal to N.A.T.O., because the American
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law might make it impossible to carry out. Surely this does not prevent the British Government from making proposals. Surely they should have an attitude about nuclear weapons in Europe, and they should make that attitude clear to the House.
As there is no immediate danger of nuclear war, and no need to increase the number of nuclear weapons in Europe at present, the only valid reason for arming N.A.T.O., as far as I can see, would be to bring about not an increase but a decrease in nuclear weapons. If Britain and France were willing to give up their own nuclear weapons in exchange for a N.A.T.O. force of nuclear weapons there might be something in this proposal. Will the Government suggest this? When they go to these consultations, will they say, "We are willing to give up our nuclear weapons and put them under N.A.T.O.?" I do not believe that they will do so.
As to control, I have always thought that there should be some agreement among the allies about the circumstances in which nuclear weapons might be threatened or used. The Minister of Defence spoke about the rule book, and said that it was impossible to have such a thing. But there must now be standing orders for commanders in regard to these matters. Again, the Government might tell the House a little more about the general agreement, to which the Prime Minister is always referring, concerning the circumstances in which nuclear weapons might be used or threatened.
Any effective control beyond that—that is to say, any control at the point at which the weapon is about to be used—runs slap up against the difficulties touched upon by the right hon. Member for Flint, West and also by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale. Political control of these weapons at that point would mean a surrender of sovereignty by this country, which I might be prepared to accept but which neither the Conservative nor the Labour Party would accept for one moment.
Let us consider the proposal that there should be a standing group of N.A.T.O Ministers. Are they to be Foreign Ministers? Where are they to come from? It is surely not suggested that we could leave out the Americans. Therefore, we would have three Foreign

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Ministers, one of whom might be American. To some extent we would still have the American veto. The purpose of giving nuclear arms to N.A.T.O. is often represented as an attempt to get round that veto. Will the Foreign Ministers take the ultimate decision about nuclear war without referring to their respective Governments? I do not believe that they will, for a moment. I am talking now of a strategic nuclear attack. Yet if they do refer to their Governments it will be too late.
I do not believe that we can have political control in that sort of way. We must be prepared to give up our sovereignty if we have a N.A.T.O. deterrent and hope to keep ultimate political control. As has been said, we must be prepared to give up Parliamentary control and even control by a particular Government, and give it into the hands of one man, or a very small supreme group. If we want to deal with nuclear weapons in that way that is the sort of arrangement we must arrive at. If we did, what about the Commonwealth? We are always hearing about the necessity to consult the Commonwealth. Would any N.A.T.O. group consult the Commonwealth? It certainly would be involved if it used nuclear weapons.
If we are to put a deterrent under N.A.T.O. control and make it credible we either have to give it to one individual or to a supranational body. I cannot believe that either the Conservative Party or the Labour Party would accept this. I do not think that they would regard N.A.T.O. as a suitable body. I would also have grave doubts about the adoption of that course, unless, by giving nuclear weapons to N.A.T.O., we were to make a clear reduction in nuclear arms.
The question of control alone puts the suggestion of a N.A.T.O. deterrent out of court, but I believe—and this is possibly the only argument for Britain's keeping her deterrent—that we can use the deterrent as a bargaining counter to get agreement with the Americans about the standing orders or the rule book in the use of deterrents in general.
But the greatest difficulty does not arise in relation to the major deterrent, because its use, or the threat of its use
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means that we are so near Armageddon that the situation may be irreparable, and control will settle itself. The difficulty lies in finding some means of controlling the tactical nuclear weapon, for its use may start an escalator up to a world war. Are we to accept that a general could use it? There have been rumours in Germany that the Army was expecting this decision to be made at a low level. The Minister has denied that But if it were true the decision could be taken quickly, and the credibility would be thereby increased.
The other possibility is, again, that a standing group of N.A.T.O. politicians should do it. That would defeat the whole purpose of the deterrent. If we must have small tactical weapons—shortrange weapons—under N.A.T.O. we must face the fact that the only way of making this arrangement credible is by putting them under General Norstad in his dual capacity and telling him that he may use them only if the Russians use nuclear weapons first. Nothing else is credible or possible. I do not recommend this except as a last resort, but the House should face the difficulties involved. It should be stipulated that they should be used only in retaliation, and that they should be left in a small mobile force, directly under the commander's hand, and not allowed under the control of lower commands. But before we can contemplate the development of such a situation we must be sure that this will not add to the nuclear dangers in Europe, but will subtract from them by persuading the French and British to give up their own weapons. Otherwise, N.A.T.O. must rely on conventional arms.
This brings me back to the purpose of our arms policy. It surely is to provide our full contingent of conventional arms for the various defence purposes in which we may be involved. It is there that our prestige is at stake, and not in encouraging the reliance of N.A.T.O. or its individual countries upon nuclear weapons. Where, at the moment, are we threatened with danger? Where may we have to use force? I do not believe that there is a danger of war in Europe. It is much more likely to occur in Africa or Asia, where it will result in a demand for conventional arms and not nuclear forces.

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Do not let us go further down this road at the end of which lies total reliance on nuclear forces. Let us keep up our conventional strength and realise that our prestige is not enhanced by efforts to keep up with the Russians or the Americans on the nuclear plane. It is like old gentlemen who begin to worry about their success with the girls. They only do so because they are getting past it. Our prestige in the world would be enhanced much more by trying to build up some real interdependence in the free world and by trying to increase the conventional strength of the Western Alliance.
6.19 p.m.
Brigadier Sir John Smyth: I agree with certain arguments put forward by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). I agree especially with the remark he made in opening, that so long as there is an overall balance of nuclear power between the Russians and the Western world another global war is likely to be prevented. He went on to say that we should give up our deterrent forces and develop our conventional forces. He must face the fact that that means the reintroduction of conscription. If he accepts that, well and good. I shall have something to say about that later on.
As for control, I am certain that there is no difference in principle between the control of forces in the field now and at the time of the Second World War. We should have our big headquarters in London or Washington, and all that I am quite certain about is that the commander in the field must have complete control of his own weapons. Therefore, if we mean N.A.T.O. to be a shield which is to be at instant readiness, obviously General Norstad must have complete control of all the weapons under that shield, because he will not get very much time, things will happen very quickly, and there will not be any time to refer to any political committee at the back.
The hon. Gentleman also talked about tactical weapons, and asked whether we could not have an agreement as to what was and what was not a tactical weapon. We always used to have an agreement between nations in the Geneva Convention. I remember very well when an Indian Rajah let off a 500 express
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elephant gun from our side, which was very strictly against the rules of that Geneva Convention, and we had a very unpleasant time in consequence, but generally the rule was kept. I do not see why there should not be discussions with the Russians, since both sides have them, on what are tactical weapons and what are not.
Mr. S. Silverman: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman saying that the rules of the Geneva Convention against such attacks directed against non-combatants were kept in the last war?
Sir J. Smyth: I am saying that the Geneva Convention had certain rules as to what was a letigimate weapon of war and what was not, and that these rules were generally kept. They were not always kept. I assure the hon. Member that that was so, because I had experience of an occasion when they were not kept, and, of course, there was a great row.
One great difference by which one can judge whether a weapon is tactical or strategic is, first, by its range, and, secondly, by its target. If one is going to bombard a city with what we call a tactical nuclear weapon, I think that would be a complete misnomer in terms. That is not a tactical weapon at all. It largely depends on the target against which one uses the weapon.
At the beginning of a debate like this, in order to move a Motion of censure, one has to make out that there is something very wrong and very dangerous in the present situation which demands drastic alteration. I think it is interesting to compare the position in regard to global war which exists today, fifteen years after the last war, with the position which existed in 1933, fifteen years after the First World War. I maintain that it is infinitely better today, although we still live in a very dangerous world.
In 1933, we saw the beginnings of Hitler's rise to power. We had the League of Nations, which had just embarked upon a policy of—I will not call it exactly unilateral disarmament, but of disarmament by example. We were to reduce the size of our tanks and to curtail various offensive arms and aircraft, and we hoped that the Germans would do the same, but that appeasement simply encouraged Hitler to further

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his plans for aggression. Then came the invasion of the Rhineland, and once we allowed that, it was quite obvious that another world war was coming.
Let us look at the difference in the position today. We have collective defence, in which America is included, as it was not in the former case. We have our N.A.T.O. shield, and we have a balance of nuclear power and a nuclear deterrent which both sides recognise as being such a devastating weapon that it would be madness to start another global war. I believe, as the right hon. Gentleman said, that, so long as the balance of power is fairly even, global war is less likely today than at any time in the present century. Certainly, I find the position infinitely better than it was fifteen years after the First World War.
I think that we should be absolutely clear what the rôle of N.A.T.O. is. It has been stated at various times by General Norstad, and several times in this House, but I must say that I am beginning to doubt a little, from some of the latest statements of General Norstad and even that of my right hon. Friend today, whether the N.A.T.O. command is not envisaging for itself another rôle—a wider and bigger rôle that I have never found stated in its objects before. I have always regarded the rôle of N.A.T.O. as that of a shield to operate, in the event of an incident or clash, to call a halt and create a pause. For that rôle, I find the present strength of N.A.T.O. pretty well adequate, both in nuclear and in conventional weapons.
I cannot believe that it will not be apparent, very soon after that clash or incident has been brought to a halt, whether the aggressor means to launch a major war or not. It will very soon become apparent, within a matter of days. I believe that the targets which the Russians would engage in the event of an all-out nuclear war would probably be quite different targets from those they would engage against, say, the frontline troops of the N.A.T.O. command. We have to examine very carefully these further proposals with regard to the introduction of much more powerful long-range weapons into N.A.T.O. be-
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fore we can accept them and be certain that this is what we want.
Mr. R. T. Paget: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggesting that he regards N.A.T.O.s conventional armament which exists today, and the divisions available, as sufficient to deal with a serious crisis over Berlin?
Sir J. Smyth: Of course, it absolutely depends on the extent of the attack that we have to meet. That is the whole problem. I cannot imagine that the Russians will throw into an attack on N.A.T.O. all the force which they could use—say, some fifty divisions—and yet not wish to run the danger of a global war. I cannot believe that that would possibly happen, and therefore I maintain that the attack that N.A.T.O. would have to face, and which it is designed and trained to face, is not an attack of that nature, but one with which it is well able to cope.
The debate has raised one or two extremely interesting general points, upon which I should like to touch. I find that running through a lot of the speeches today, and other debates in the House, is the idea that our present conventional forces are not nearly big enough and should be largely increased. That is an opinion which I know a lot of people hold very strongly. The hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) holds it very strongly, I know, but, of course, if one holds that opinion, one must face the fact that it means conscription of some sort. We know that we are a little doubtful, and even the Minister himself is a little doubtful, whether we can raise even 180,000 men by voluntary recruiting. It is quite certain that we could not double our present conventional forces without introducing conscription. It really is nonsense to think otherwise.
I believe that the hon. Member for Dudley accepts that, because he has set his name to a Motion on the Order Paper which calls for a halt to the pursuit of nuclear strategy and, in response to an Amendment to that Motion he has put on the Order Paper an Amendment to the proposed Amendment giving his view that we should fulfil our responsibilities in N.A.T.O.
"even at the cost of domestic political unpopularity".

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By those words he means, I know, conscription.
The hon. Member has other Amendments down on the Order Paper on the same subject in combination with the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman). The hon. Member for Coventry, East has been perfectly clear in the statements he has made. In an article he wrote on 5th May, he said that he believed in increasing our voluntary forces and he accepted entirely that conscription might be necessary. All I say about that is that anyone who holds that view must be fair and must accept the consequence.
There are certain people who belittle our own British nuclear deterrent. I wish that the hon. Member for Dudley were here, because he has said that our British deterrent is non-existent. Even in the last debate we had here, he said that it was only 5 per cent. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence took him to task about that and said that it was nonsense. He pointed out that
"each V-bomber which stands at instant readiness can carry and must carry several scores of Hiroshimas in its load."
A little later my right hon. Friend said that we are contributing to N.A.T.O. a squadron of Valiant bombers and
"quite a large number of Canberras, which provide an all-weather nuclear strike capacity."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th November, 1960; Vol. 629, c. 597–8.]
We must be fair about this. The right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker) was quite outspoken about it, if he was reported aright by the Observer last Sunday:
"On Saturday night, he said in Bristol that Britain's stockpile of nuclear weapons is very formidable. If the Royal Air Force got an order tonight to launch a sudden unprovoked attack against Russia, they could lay the country waste from end to end."
That may be an exaggeration, but clearly the right hon. Gentleman accepts that we have a deterrent of no mean order.
If we do not have the numbers of conventional forces we want, we shall have to adopt some form of conscription. The type of conscription which is generally advocated is what is known as selective service, the system which is in operation in America. The Times has been advocating that form of conscription. In
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a leading article on the 5th of this month, The Times said that
"people in Britain have only a hazy notion of how selective service works. … The shadow of compulsion hanging over youth has proved such an effective recruiting sergeant that without it the Services could not meet their manpower requirements. … By supporting the continuance of selective service the American Armed Forces admit that they cannot outbid industry and they need the threat of compulsion."
When one hears that, one can understand how very unpopular selective service is in the United States, and I am quite sure that our young men would not respond well to these threats, just as the Americans will not respond.
There is often talk in this House about a limited war, a war which could be fought in Europe after the shield has done its work, a limited conventional war against the whole might of Russia. I do not believe that such a limited war is possible. I am quite sure that if there were a major clash between the forces of Russia and the forces of the Western world, it would in a very short time result in a global war starting. I have said before that the only real answer today to total was is total peace.
I am completely satisfied with the statement which my right hon. Friend has made today. There is just one point to which, I think, we should devote further thought.
Mr. Grimond: I am much struck by the hon. and gallant Gentleman's statement that the only alternative to total war is total peace. I must say that, in the circumstances of the modern world, that is a remarkable statement. There is not total peace in Asia or in Africa. There is not total war either, but a situation requiring conventional troops.
Sir J. Smyth: Naturally, I accept that we shall always have the small war, the bush war. I am talking about global war. Indeed, the President of the United States himself has said that the only answer to total war is total peace. The whole idea behind the deterrent is that we must not let another war start, and that is the whole basis and object of our policy.
I was saying that I am absolutely satisfied with what my right hon. Friend said today and what he has said in the other extremely sound and sensible speeches he has made. The only thing to which

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we have not yet, I think, devoted enough thought is the wider sort of N.A.T.O. which General Norstad has been talking about recently. There is no reason whatever to move a Motion of censure, and I hope that it will be decisively defeated.
6.36 p.m.
Mr. A. J. Irvine: I always listen with great respect and attention to the contributions which the hon. and gallant Member for Norwood (Sir J. Smyth) makes to our defence debates. I confess that I am surprised, having learnt a little of his knowledge and realism in these matters, that he should feel able, to the extent he has, to express satisfaction with the Minister's speech. I thought it very unlikely, for example, that the hon. and gallant Member would feel satisfied about the political control of N.A.T.O., and one would have liked to hear him speak in greater detail about that. I wonder whether his decision to devote less attention to that aspect of the matter is due to the fact that he is relatively less confident about that part of the Government's policy than about the rest.
It is well known, of course, that there is a difference of opinion among my right hon. and hon. Friends about defence. I wish to make it perfectly clear that on this point I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot). I am sorry that he is not here at the moment, because I wished to add an expression of my regret at the news of the death of his father. I have personally been the recipient of many kindnesses from the late Mr. Isaac Foot. His loss is deeply regretted.
In my view, there are certain serious inconsistencies in the position which my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale takes, and, as a preface to my observations generally on the Motion, I propose to point to what seem to me to be some of them. For example, my hon. Friend, if I recall aright, was one of those associated with others like myself in the view that it was undesirable to rearm Western Germany when the decision was made to do so. That was a narrow and difficult issue. I have always been convinced, and I am convinced today, that the arguments for deferring the arming
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of Western Germany were very strong indeed, for obvious reasons, the main one being that if one armed Western Germany one created a rigid and inflexible situation in Central Europe at the heart of the area of crisis, making it more difficult to establish and pursue a policy of disengagement and of relaxation of tension there.
The inconsistency which I desire to point out in the position adopted by my hon. Friends who then took that view and who are now supporting a policy of unilateral nuclear disarmament is this. Am I not right when I say that an almost inevitable consequence of the application of a policy of unilateral nuclear disarmament by this country would be an eventual increase in the relative nuclear armaments strength of Germany? This has always seemed to me a very important and valid point. It is not a debating point, but one of substance deserving the consideration of those who want to be realistic about these problems. If the United Kingdom decided to pursue a policy of unilateral nuclear disarmament, I do not believe that the immediate reaction of the United States of America would be to contract out of Europe or to abandon its involvement in a policy of collective security, which, incidentally, I regard as the supremely encouraging feature of the development of politics since the Second World War in contrast to the situation as it developed after the First World War.
I am all in favour of American involvement in a system of collective security. I do not think that the effect of a policy of unilateral nuclear disarmament pursued by this country would mean that the United States would immediately contract out of or abandon its interest in N.A.T.O. and in Western defence by removing its forces from Europe. But I think that if the United States found its ally, Britain, refusing to have anything to do with nuclear armaments its immediate and inevitable reaction would be to divert a greater relative amount of nuclear arms strength in the direction of Germany. It is in this respect that I regard the position taken up by my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale as so inconsistent with earlier positions which he rightly adopted.
I think he is also in great difficulty on the point that the implication of the

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policy of my hon. Friends who favour nuclear disarmament is that it places British ground forces in Europe at a disadvantage in terms of power and armament as compared with their American colleagues in American divisions who might be fighting side by side with them. I go to the length of saying that that is an unthinkable proposal. It is unthinkable to the vast majority of the people in this country.
I take the view therefore on this point, and the earlier point, although I hold in great respect the arguments put forward by my hon. Friends who take the contrary view, that it involves them in serious inconsistency. I regard their whole disposition about this matter as strictly analogous historically to the peace ballot agitation before the Second World War. I do not dishonour the agitation that accompanied the peace ballot before the Second World War. I only say that on a serious analysis it was found to be unrealistic and not to meet the requirements of the case. These are some of the reasons why I take up the position I do in this controversy inside the party.
With these considerations in mind, it of course follows that what I desire is a British contribution to Western defence which will provide the maximum amount of effective support that can be brought to bear upon the Western defence effort. As to 80 per cent. of that, for my part I am compelled to express the view that I feel I must rely upon the recommendations of those who are specialists in these matters. Upon them, particularly in this highly technical and difficult phase in military affairs, is the responsibility of determining these matters. I do not particularly like having to admit that position. I rather regret the extent to which our present age is an age of specialisation and of technicalities which the ordinary person who does not specialise on the subject has some difficulty in comprehending.
I also acknowledge that in the history of this country there is some evidence which would not lead one to place particular confidence in handing over responsibilities for problems to people who are immersed in military and technical matters. None the less, I think we are obliged to do that in this case. I
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think, however, that there are certain matters which come especially within the province of the House of Commons and should be treated as outside the scope and embrace of the technical and logistical specialists to whom I have referred. To these we should give particular attention.
I welcome in particular the manner in which the Motion in the name of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition picks out just those aspects of our defence problem to which it is of special importance that this House should give attention. I refer in particular to the question of control of N.A.T.O. forces, control of Polaris and the rest. The people of this country, and certainly we on this side of the House, are wholly and completely discontented with toe present arrangements for control of these affairs. We have not got any kind of evidence that effective control exists. We are told by the Minister of Defence in this connection that it is not possible to work out a rule book which will govern the application of the control. That is a very extraordinary situation and, if it is true, surely it implies a very high tribute to the activities of the Soviet intelligence. Certainly from what we hear and what we know there is no satisfactory control.
The position as I see it is this. Secrecy is not incompatible with public confidence about matters of this kind—not at all. I am not asking on behalf of hon. Members on this side of the House, or anybody else, that these matters, many of which must be kept secret, should be laid bare and made public—not at all. What should the position be in an all-important matter of this kind affecting the interests of Members of Parliament with their special responsibilities for national security? I suggest that it should be this. The Prime Minister and the Cabinet should be satisfied that they get an effective system of political control over nuclear and other armaments and their use. They should be satisfied that they have the necessary element of control.
They should inform the Leader of the Opposition what the scheme is. The Opposition, under our constitution, through their Leader, should have the opportunity of probing and questioning

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the quality and character of the scheme or arrangement for control on which the Government have decided. If on that hypothesis the Leader of the Opposition was prepared to accept the scheme as reasonably satisfactory in the national interest, at least to the extent that no further probing in debate was called for, that could be the end of the matter. The situation in Parliament could be allowed to rest there. I draw attention to the astonishing situation in which nothing of that kind appears to have occurred. The wording of the Motion makes it abundantly clear that we on this side of the House feel that there is insufficient evidence to satisfy us that there is any satisfactory system of control worked out or available.
Sir Arthur Vere Harvey: The hon. and learned Gentleman suggested that the Leader of the Opposition should be informed by the Government of certain details. Has he ever asked his right hon. Friend whether he would accept this information if it were offered to him?
Mr. Irvine: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman's intervention goes to the heart of the matter. This is a serious problem for the House of Commons. I suggest that the elected representatives in this House are entitled to be satisfied that there is a proper system of control. Considerations of security may be such that it is not possible to inform the whole House what the system of control is, and the way to overcome that dilemma, under our constitutional system, is for the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defence to decide upon what the methods shall be and then inform the Leader of the Opposition; and in the event that he was satisfied—which at any rate is not an unthinkable hypothesis to consider—that a reasonably satisfactory scheme is in being, the matter would be pursued no further.
Brigadier Sir Otho Prior-Palmer rose—
Mr. Irvine: I do not wish to take up time and give way again.
On this all-important question of control, which is, as I say, particularly appropriate for consideration by Members of the House of Commons, I have
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observed the Prime Minister's answers about the arrangements for Holy Loch. I have no intention of anticipating, but in the context of the general problem of control, it is complete casuistry to suggest that, because certain classes of vessels carrying weapons can proceed from a base for a long distance and get into a situation which is remote from the base they left, there is therefore no ground for there being any control over the movements of the vessels at all. It is casuistry to make that suggestion as the Prime Minister has made it.
Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to formulate a scheme or method of control which will at any rate prevent vessels of that kind, carrying missiles, from going direct from bases in this country upon provocative expeditions or going into the territorial waters of foreign Powers. But we have not been told of any provision which has been laid down for control of this purpose. No hon. Member can have any confidence that there is no danger of there being an incident in respect of Polaris parallel, for example, with the incident of the U.2.
It is in this, in my submission, basic and fundamental respect that the Government, and the Prime Minister in particular, appear to have failed. They have failed, it seems to me, to take advantage of the peculiar primacy which this country ought to possess in the alliance and in its relationship with the United States. On this issue of control, that seems to me to be a point of basic importance.
Our recent historical record as an ally of the United States compares very favourably, does it not, with the records of other Western European States? We were an ally of the United States in the last world war, and Western Germany was a foe. The same contrast exists in the case of Italy. It may be thought that we made a greater contribution to the defeat of Germany than did France. Our association latterly with the strategic policy of the West has been more accommodating to the United States than has the policy of France.
I take the view that having regard to these historical antecedents of the recent past, we are entitled to expect a wholly distinctive relationship with the United States inside the alliance, and I believe that spokesmen and representatives of

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the United States would largely agree with this if they were to express themselves upon it. People speak about this country being too dependent upon the United States. I do not accept that way of expressing it. In my opinion there is too much independence of United States strategy from the reasonable requirements and interests of this country. We are in a position of particularly exposed danger in this country in the whole concept of nuclear war.
Having regard to that circumstance and to the very special and distinctive history of this country in its relations with the United States in two world wars and in the development of the Western alliance, I think that we are in a position to claim a distinctive and significant say, jointly with the United States, in the development of Western strategy and the design of Western defence. We should have a bigger influence than we seem to have at present. That should be achieved by diplomatic effort and by diplomatic design at the ambassadorial level and at the Cabinet level.
The Government have failed, because none of us here, on any side of the House, can feel at all confident that the degree of control and the planning of control over the use of these weapons is anything like as clear or satisfactory as it should be. Time and again the Prime Minister's answers are examples not of strength but of casuistry, and that is not good enough. It is in this respect that my right hon. and hon. Friends, no matter what differences in certain respects may divide us, can agree in condemning the Government.
6.58 p.m.
Mr. Julian Critchley: So far this afternoon we have heard three expressions of view on defence—that put by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot), the official Opposition view on defence, and what I can describe as the orthodox Conservative view, which supports the Government Front Bench. Hesitantly, I should like to offer a fourth point of view.
Some members of the Bow Group have been meeting since March under my chairmanship to look at defence polioies, and to the best of our ability we have investigated the unilateralists' defence policy, the defence policy of the
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Opposition and the Government's defence policy. It is only fair to say that a certain lack of satisfaction with all three policies has emerged from our debating over the last six months. We have listened to some thirteen or fourteen experts on defence, including hon. Members drawn from both sides of the House. We have listened very carefully to the evidence put forward, and we start from the point of view that the end of policy—and in this we are all agreed—is the prevention of nuclear war.
If that is the case, and if it is also the case that the United States of America—and, therefore, Britain—has decided on moral grounds against launching a surprise attack on the Soviet Union, a preventive war, it seems that the West is highly unlikely in the event of war to strike the first blow. I would consider that to invite war on any such basis is idiocy. The Americans, with a surer strategic grasp, have seized on this point and are at the moment altering their weapon system; with the Polaris submarine and the Minuteman solid-fuel mobile missile. They are trying to make their own nuclear forces invulnerable, and this is the key.
My concern is about the speed with which Her Majesty's Government are trying to do the same thing. I feel that the weapons system that we mount at the present moment is unsatisfactory. I also feel that the whole Western view on deterrence has been up to now, and will be for the next year or two, a monstrous bluff that might be called. I am very afraid of its being called.
At least the Americans have now begun to see this, and the new Administration will pursue new and very sensible policies with great speed. If by 1963–64 America has achieved the "B" posture, the power to strike back, it will have one fundamental consequence. That consequence will be that by 1963–64 the United States of America will be unable or unwilling either to avenge a nuclear attack on Europe alone or to prevent nuclear threats or blackmail against the whole of N.A.T.O. Europe, or any one country in N.A.T.O. Europe. The vulnerability of American cities means that unless America herself is hit by a nuclear strike she will not move to protect her allies in Europe.

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I know that this is against the generally accepted view of the N.A.T.O. alliance—we are supposed to go to the aid of one another—but the American Secretary of State, Christian Herter, in what was a "Freudian" statement, and a revealing and realistic statement, said that he could not conceive of the United States of America moving with her own nuclear weapons against the Soviet Union unless there was evidence that America herself—and, if one can, I verbally underline the word "herself"—was about to be attacked.
That is in complete contradiction to the policy of the alliance so far, and it means that by 1963–64 N.A.T.O. Europe will have to look after itself in terms of nuclear weapons, because the defence threat to N.A.T.O. Europe and to the West is either a nuclear one or a threat of conventional attack. Therefore, by 1963–64 Europe should achieve, and should now be thinking about how to achieve its own "B" posture.
It is here that our viewpoint on the British deterrent becomes more relevant. Over the last five or six months, the Government have shifted their ground with some subtlety. They have not admitted doing so yet, though they may in the White Paper, but there are signs and hints of the Government shifting ground. Perhaps one might suggest that the wisest thing to do would be to scrap the Skybolt contract for a start. Skybolt makes much greater sense for the U.S.A. than it does for Bomber Command. If the Polaris submarine is countered in the future by some unforeseen technical advance, then at least America can rely on S.A.C. and the Skybolt, the B.52s and the B.58s, simply because it is 3,000 miles from the Soviet Union and would by that time have warning and, because America can afford to have a standing alert. All these factors would make the choice of Skybolt for America more rational. These arguments do not apply to us.
I think that the manned aircraft and the Thor missile on which we now depend must, if they are to operate efficiently, be used first, and I have grave doubts that in the event of nuclear threat either the British Government or the French Government would refuse to fire our weapons first, because to do so
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would be an irrational act and would commit our populations to suicide.
I go one stage further. If that is the case, the urgency of the Government's defence thinking, as of American defence thinking, is to alter our whole weapons system, and we could do that only at fabulous expense. That is, perhaps, the underlying reason why we abandoned Blue Streak, because the medium-range liquid-fuel rocket is vulnerable and, perhaps, too expensive. The manned aircraft is almost equally vulnerable and I think that we must replace Bomber Command eventually by the Polaris submarine.
I hope that the third nuclear submarine that we are to lay down—and, I hope, to be laid down in my own constituency, in Chatham—will be a missile firing submarine. It is hindsight to say that the decision to go into the Polaris submarine business should have been made a year or two ago, but I hope that the third submarine will be the first of a fleet of six which could, by 1963–1964–1965–1966, be our contribution to the strategic N.A.T.O. deterrent.
I should like to see N.A.T.O. armed with strategic nuclear weapons, because the vulnerability of American cities implies that America will not act on behalf of Europe if she herself is not attacked. Whether that fear is real or imaginary, it exists in Europe, and it militates against the alliance at present. The result of that fear, which exists throughout Europe, is that individual European States will decide to go into the nuclear business themselves; in the first instance with first-strike weapons, and, in the second instance, perhaps with second-strike weapons.
I believe that that would be a wrong and very dangerous policy. Therefore, the other choice is that the alliance itself should try to control strategic nuclear weapons. As a first step, I would suggest that the Government put the V-bomber force—all 250 of them—under N.A.T.O. control; perhaps offering a squadron or two to de Gaulle to give him some means of delivery. At the moment, he cannot get his bomb from Lyons to Marseilles except by train. To do that would at least be a gesture, always assuming that, in return, the French put their so-called independent forces under N.A.T.O.

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That immediately raises the agonising question of who controls the weapon if it is to be used first? I will not attempt to disregard this, but I see this initial process of trying to weld the existing unsatisfactory independent weapons system of Europe as only a first stage. It would, at least, have the effect of trying to clarify all our thought on control, and it needs clarifying at present.
The important thing is that the ideal weapon system for Europe in the late 'sixties is second strike. If it is second strike it will be fired only if the Soviet Union tires first. The response must be automatic, so the question of control is not so important, although it is confused by which of two weapon systems we adopt. If we adopt the right one the question of control is overcome, because in the event of nuclear war the response is automatic. At the same time this makes the conventional contribution of the West even more important than it has been up to now because if we can achieve nuclear stability—and this is the most urgent requirement of defence—in the next four to five years then the range of options open to the Soviet Union is widened and for the first time a set-piece conventional war becomes a possibility in Europe.
We must, therefore stimulate the N.A.T.O. Alliance, not only by trying to create the strategic nuclear power for N.A.T.O. itself but so that we can encourage every country in Europe to make a contribution in terms of conventional forces to Europe. If one agrees that the defence in a war, with or without the small type of atomic weapon, is now far more powerful in relation to the aggressor, there is no reason why in 1966 we should not have moved into the line thirty extremely well-equipped conventional divisions which would be in a position to prevent any Soviet adventures.
It seems that defence is twofold. We must achieve stability throughout the world, with special reference to a stable weapons system for this country. That means no Skybolt, hand over the V-bombers to N.A.T.O. as a first step, and certainly go in for a small number of Polaris submarines as our eventual contribution to the N.A.T.O. deterrent.
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It also means that we should have a very hard look at whether conscription should be reintroduced at the end of 1962 or the beginning of 1963. All the signs at the moment are that we shall have to do so. Our decision to do away with conscription was, in fact, a unilateral decision. We are the only N.A.T.O. country which decided to do so. It was a gamble and we took it. It looks as though it may not come off. Therefore, I think that we must brace ourselves to the realisation that by the end of 1963, for at least two years, when the bulge in population brings us to the 180,000 mark, we must call up some 50,000 National Service men a year for two years in order to preserve our commitments. Anybody who is interested in defence will not say that we must reduce our commitments because we have not enough people. That is not a defence argument. I am concerned that our present commitments should be kept because it is equally a defence argument that if we reduce our commitments then the Soviet Union and/or China will exploit this particular weakness.
We need to change our weapons system and we need to look very closely at the quality of our conventional weapons. If we do that, and there are indications that we are doing so—the Minister is noticeably more lukewarm about the Skybolt project than he was a year ago—then I think the Government's defence policy will be on the right lines.
7.13 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Although I broke with my hon. and right hon. Friends on the Front Bench on the twin issues of defence policy and party democracy, I want to begin by saying that I do not question their wish for peace. They want peace as much as I do. I want unilateral disarmament as much as they do. However, there are legitimate differences of opinion between us as to the best way that peace and multilateral disarmament can be obtained.
This evening I do not propose to argue against my right hon. Friend's Motion but to argue on the lines of the substance of the Amendment which my friends and I tabled and which you, Sir, felt unable to call. We tabled that Amendment because it seemed to us to be a reiteration

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of the decision that the Labour Party took at Scarborough in October. We believe that the significance of those Scarborough decisions was that they were part of a general world-wide change of approach to international affairs. The most graphic example of that change of approach has been Mr. Khrushchev's triumph over the Chinese Communists and his insistence on the policy of peaceful co-existence.
I believe that there is now at least a possibility of breaking the log jam that has held up the development of international relations over the past fifteen years. During that time no problem has been decided on its merits. The criterion of every decision has been the extent to which it would affect the strategic strength of either of the great Power blocs, the East or the West. For a time we negotiated from strength and, therefore, concessions were not made. Now we have the balance of terror to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Norwood (Sir J. Smyth) referred. I would prefer to call it the terror of the balance. Anything which might upset that balance, however inevitable it may be, however ultimately desirable it may be, has to be avoided, whether it is in Africa, Asia, the Middle East, Europe or South America.
The folly of the position into which we have drifted is that we now see everything in strategic and military terms whereas the real possibility of Communist expansion is more likely to come from the political and economic blunders of the capitalist system. I think that both the East and West must share the responsibility for that situation, and if I concentrate on the mistakes of the West it is not because I acquit the Eastern bloc of its share of the responsibility. I do so because we cannot determine the Eastern bloc's policy but we can, or should be able to, determine the foreign policy of the Western bloc. I must say that I wish I shared the confidence of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. A. J. Irvine) as to the extent to which we can, or will be able to, influence American policy on foreign affairs or on defence.
I believe that over the years the West has made five major mistakes. The first was the one that this House discussed
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last night, namely our insistence on excluding China from the United Nations The other four mistakes are particularly relevant to today's debate. The second is that we have dragged our feet on disarmament. If anybody questions that let him read the brilliant book "The Arms Race" written by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker). The third mistake that the West has made was when the Poles put forward the Rapacki Plan; we waited for America to pronounce upon it and then snubbed the Poles. The fourth mistake is that we still have made no positive reaction to China's proposal for a non-nuclear zone in the Pacific. Our fifth mistake has been that we have made no attempt to make the Middle East an area of disengagement.
We have, in fact, drifted into a position in which we have no distinctive British foreign policy or defence policy. It is merely a faint echo of American foreign or defence policy, in whatever department in Washington that policy is determined—and, one suspects, ultimately, whether or not Her Majesty's Government really approve of it.
For that reason our defence arrangements are of literally vital importance. Until I am happier about the foreign policy that we are pursuing I believe that we cannot run the risk of having nuclear bases in Great Britain. Most of the bases that were affected by the Amendment my hon. Friends and I tabled have nothing to do with N.A.T.O. They are purely Anglo-American bases positioned in this country as a result of, apparently, an unconditional arrangement made between this country and the United States. Nor is Mere anything that I can find in the North Atlantic Treaty that makes it obligatory upon us to have nuclear bases in this country.
I believe that the principal danger to us is the United States bases on our soil. I do not want to rehearse all the dangers of nuclear warfare, but it seems to me that two facts are beyond dispute. The first is that there is no defence against nuclear attack. The second is that, if we are lucky, we may receive four minutes' warning of such an attack. As a number of hon. Gentlemen have agreed today, everything depends upon nuclear warfare not happening. We

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have, therefore, to make up our minds whether nuclear warfare is more or less likely if we have United States bases on our soil.
I cannot believe that there is much security in having on our territory the nuclear bases of a Power which was so appallingly irresponsible as to send the U.2 plane over Russia, to call a general alert on the eve of the Summit Conference, and, even after that, to send the RB.47. Yet the Minister of Defence says that our arrangements with the United States as to the control of these bases "have worked out pretty well". That is a point of view which will commend itself to no hon. Gentleman on this side of the House.
The position is made worse by the decision to have the Polaris base in Holy Loch. I am a great admirer of Mr. Chapman Pincher, who, I think, is one of the most brilliant journalists of the day and a much more reliable prophet in these matters than the Government and the chiefs of staff. On 9th December, Mr. Chapman Pincher wrote an article in the Daily Express on the Polaris-carrying submarines in which he said:
"The first drawback to the Polaris-carrying submarines is that they will have to return at frequent intervals to Holy Loch and their other bases for maintenance of their H-bomb warheads. If the Russians keep pace with United States atomic submarine building, we may see the situation in which hunter-killer submarines of each side are shadowing the missile-launching submarines of the other, as East and West now shadow each other's diplomats.
This could lead to unpleasant political incidents off Britain."
Then Mr. Pincher draws attention to the fact that in order to get their orders these submarines have to come within 90 ft. of the surface. He continues:
"Thus, during a time of political tension, when the 'Fire' order might come at any moment—and such a period might last several days—the submarine must be taken up near the surface."
Later in the article Mr. Pincher says:
"At a time of great tension, the Russians would obviously try to block United States radio messages to their subs.
And, of course, the most effective way to do this would be to knock out the stations from which they were being sent.
Are there any 'Fire' message stations in Britain? I suspect there is at least one.
As for the Holy Loch base itself, the Russians will certainly have long-range H-bomb missiles zeroed on it.
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Every Polaris submarine carries sixteen missiles, each capable of destroying the heart of a major city. The Russians are unlikely to neglect the opportunity of knocking out any which happen to be holed up in Holy Loch or any other base."
Mr. Chapman Pincher's conclusion is this:
"The danger now is that the Russians may sink a Polaris submarine as they destroyed the American RB47 reconnaissance bomber and claim that it was in territorial waters when it was not.
If that submarine happened to come from Holy Loch, Britain would be involved in an international incident of great danger."
That is a most terrifying analysis of the situation caused by the arrival of the Polaris submarine in our waters. If a U.2 plane or a Polaris submarine causes an incident, or if American nuclear weapons are used from bases on Formosa, what protection have we in this country got? Retaliation will be almost inevitable, and it will not be much good telling St. Peter that we always said that there should be greater political control over the use of these bases and submarines.
My general conclusion is that, far from being a defence, nuclear bases are a real source of danger, and perhaps Polaris is the most dangerous of the lot.
I turn now to N.A.T.O. I have a great deal of sympathy with what the hon. and gallant Member for Norwood said about tactical and strategic weapons, but it is a little terrifying that N.A.T.O. should have developed into something se completely different from what it was held out to be at the time that it was conceived by Mr. Ernest Bevin and the other statesmen of the Western allies at that time. It was then a purely defensive pact. It has now already ceased to be a shield and has become a sword. I was a little surprised to hear my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), for whom I have a great regard, say that little progress had been made in implementing the decisions of 1957. According to the Guardian of 23rd November General Norstad said:
"In the three years since these decisions were reached we have made very substantial progress. For example, you will find in almost every major allied command some unit which can deliver atomic warheads. In some areas they will be found in substantial numbers."

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Therefore, the progress seems to have been swifter than my right hon. Friend appeared to believe.
Mr. G. Brown: The decisions taken in 1957, to which I referred and as to which my hon. Friend is now making exactly the same mistake as the Minister of Defence made, were decisions to put I.R.B.Ms into the armoury of S.H.A.P.E. It was in relation to those decisions that I said that fortunately little or no progress had been made. It is that statement which remains right. I was not discussing the question of putting atomic warheads on tactical weapons. That was a decision taken in 1954, and is a different matter. If my hon. Friend checks, he will find that what I said is in fact true, namely, that fortunately they have made no progress with the regrettable decision of 1957 to put intermediate range ballistic missiles into the armoury of S.H.A.P.E.
Mr. Greenwood: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. He was then much more specific than he was in his earlier remarks. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] He obviously did not convey that impression to all hon. Gentlemen who were listening to him at that time. I am grateful for what he said.
It is now a little terrifying to find that General Norstad went on to say, according to The Times of 9th December:
"He also mentioned for consideration: (a) The idea of a N.A.T.O. strategic force. Should N.A.T.O. control not only intermediate range missiles, but also strategic nuclear weapons capable of penetrating to any part of enemy territory? Should N.A.T.O. have power, not only to destroy bases from which any attack on Europe might be launched, but also to deliver a knock-out blow?"
It is true that the general went on to say that that was an "extremely interesting thought", but one which had not been proposed by or within the alliance.
It is difficult to see why General Norstad gave it such publicity on that occasion if it was not one of the plans which was being turned over in the minds of the master planners of N.A.T.O., and I suspect that we may well be on the verge of a repetition of what has happened so frequently over the last fifteen years. Ideas have been mooted at which our blood has run cold, only to find that later they were adopted
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as Government policy—not necessarily because the Government believe them to be right, but because every Government in this respect have failed to face reality and have taken refuge in fantasy. The result is that today this country is less securely defended than probably ever before in its history.
The problem which we must face is the threat to our security which N.A.T.O., over whose policies we have no control and over the policies of whose members we have no influence, may constitute.
My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edge Hill dealt with the question of Germany. All these things are questions of judgment. I do not think that any of us would claim to be infallible. My hon. and learned Friend drew attention to one aspect of the German menace. I should like to call attention to another. I am appalled at the suggestion that we should have German troops in Great Britain and German warships in Scottish ports. If I am told that those steps are the logical consequence of the decision to rearm the Germans and admit them to N.A.T.O., I can only reply that that entirely justifies those of who fought against those decisions at that time.
I do not want to play on emotions or arouse prejudices tonight, but I believe that many hon. Gentlemen will agree with me that one of the main threats to world peace is Germany's irredentist claims to her lost territories. I hope that the House of Commons will face the dangers of a situation in which a Germany with military and naval bases on our soil might launch an attack upon the countries of Eastern Europe in order to recapture her lost territories. It is inconceivable that we should avoid retaliation by nuclear weapons in a situation of that kind.
There are other examples that I could give of the dangers that many of us believe that our present position in N.A.T.O. involves. I do not want to go into details. Instead, I should like to say this. We have heard from the Opposition Front Bench and from the Government Front Bench a number of proposals for the reform of N.A.T.O. The Minister of Defence was not very frank about what should be done, but he made sympathetic noises in reply to my right hon. Friend, who was calling for the

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structural reform of N.A.T.O. and for a reform of relationships within the alliance and of the relationship between military commanders and political authorities.
In the defence statement submitted by the Labour Party and defeated at the Scarborough conference we called for an urgent revision of N.A.T.O. strategy. What will happen if we are unsuccessful in our demands for a reform of N.A.T.O. and a revision of its strategy? I think that the House and the country are entitled to hear from the Government and the Opposition today what will happen if America or the other Powers in N.A.T.O. flatly turn down the proposals we have advanced for reforming N.A.T.O. and revising its strategy. Are we to stay in N.A.T.O without any effective share in control and in spite of what the Labour Party has rightly called its "wrong and dangerous" dependence on nuclear weapons, a dependence condemned by my right hon. Friend the Deputy-Leader of the Opposition this afternoon? For example, are we to stay in even if N.A.T.O. becomes a nuclear power?
It is our apparently unconditional subordination to N.A.T.O. to which many of us take exception. I confess that personally I am not so enamoured of N.A.T.O. as some of my hon. Friends. I thought from what my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper said this afternoon that, perhaps, in this respect we might be coming a little closer together. I have always believed that our obsession with N.A.T.O. has superseded our loyalty to the United Nations. Defensive agreements like N.A.T.O. have bulked far too large and our duties under the Charter of the United Nations have bulked too small.
Nevertheless, I do not suggest that we should simply walk out of N.A.T.O. without regard to what it stands for, or what it becomes. But we say—and I gather that here there is agreement with my right hon. Friend—that N.A.T.O. was created as an emergency instrument and that it should remain a temporary expedient. That means that we should always be prepared to dismantle it in return for the scrapping of the Warsaw Pact. It also means, in my submission, that we should be prepared to withdraw if it pursues policies which are dangerous
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to peace or contrary to the real interests of Great Britain. That means if it becomes a nuclear power. No trade union leader would happily embark on industrial negotiations unless he knew that in the last resort he could withdraw his members. I do not believe that we shall ever influence N.A.T.O. unless we retain the ultimate sanction of withdrawal from it. Only if we have the ultimate sanction of withdrawal at our disposal will we have the influence in N.A.T.O. which we ought to have.
As I said, I regret that the Amendment which my hon. Friends and I tabled has not been called, because it was a protest against what we believe to be the rigid, sterile policy that the Government are pursuing. It is a protest which I believe may be as significant as those protests which were made on the benches opposite against the pre-war Conservative Government, protests which at that time commanded very little support from hon. Members opposite. We believe, however, that whatever may be our support in the House of Commons, we are speaking for the rank and file of the Labour movement in the country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear".] I wish that my right hon. Friends had felt able to table a Motion on the lines of our Amendment. In default of that, I personally have no alternative but to abstain in any Division which takes place so that I may register my protest against a policy which, within months, could lead to disaster for the human race.
7.35 p.m.
Brigadier Sir Otho Prior-Palmer: Far be it from me to intervene in the private quarrel which is taking place on the benches opposite. All that I would say to the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Greenwood) is that I am extremely disappointed. On many occasions I have heard him speak from that Dispatch Box and I have thought that he was one of the most able and most brilliant speakers which the party opposite had to offer. Now, one has only to see the Members who are congratulating him at this moment to realise how far he has slipped since those days. His speech was riddled with non sequiturs and mis-statements of fact which one could easily knock down if one had time. However, I have my own speech to make and I cannot do that.
Mr. Manuel: Try some. Have a go.
Sir O. Prior-Palmer: If the hon. Gentleman listens to what I have to say, he will hear quite a lot about it.
The speech of the hon. Member for Rossendale reminded me of the sort of woolly nonsense talked after the First World War, the sort of thing which led to the Peace Ballot and to Ribbentrop writing to Hitler saying that this country would not fight. Like many other hon. Members, I was at the receiving end of those policies, and I know.
I am not one of those who believe that there is likely to be a major war in Europe. There are two reasons why I believe that. First, because a major war in Europe would lead to a nuclear global war, and I know that the realists in the Kremlin do not want that whatever the Chinese may want. Secondly, strength of N.A.T.O. has made it certain that because it happened twice before there is no reason at all to attempt such a manoeuvre again. That is why I consider that it is absolutely vital to modernise and strengthen N.A.T.O. so that it shall continue to be, as it has been for the last ten years a deterrent to any potential aggression over the Elbe or in Western Europe.
For that reason, I appeal to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence to press, when he goes to N.A.T.O., for three of the major weaknesses to be rectified. The first is the integration of the air defence of Europe. Anyone who has seen it will know that it is a complete dog's breakfast. We know that the French are the nigger in the woodpile in this matter. By the grace of heaven they have at least taken one or two steps in the right direction, but it is up to the Minister to press this matter with his colleagues in N.A.T.O.
The second thing which is vitally important to make N.A.T.O. a reality and a credible deterrent is the existence of a mobile reserve which can be airborne at a moment's notice. This idea was put forward by General Gale many months, if not years, ago. The plans are there, I believe, but nothing has been done. There is no reason why it should not be done. General Norstad has asked for it. The aeroplanes are available if they are wanted. I hope that my right hon. Friend will press this matter.
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The third major point of many smaller ones is this. The supply organisation of the troops in the forward areas in the field is under the control of its own country, with totally different systems operating all along the front. Of all the crazy things, that is about the craziest. If troops were moved from one area to another they would have to take over a system completely foreign to their own. It is vital that this arrangement should be standardised.
Having said that, however, I believe that due to the fact that N.A.T.O. has kept the peace for ten years, and that there is no likelihood of war in Europe, the present danger is the Communist infiltration and the playing upon the nationalist feelings in other countries. We are not doing anything like enough to counteract this. I do not mean propaganda—I dislike the word. Very often, propaganda acts as a boomerang and has its repercussions, which do not have the effect which was originally desired. Factual information, however, should be put over to the uncommitted countries and to those who do not heard our broadcasts.
The achievements of the Soviet Union—and they are great, particularly in space research—are put over in a big way. To those to whom they are put over, it is success that counts. They follow, they support and they believe in the successful person. We have had the most fantastic success in various fields of scientific endeavour, but these things are not put over in the way that they should be or in the way that the Soviet Union puts them over. We do not put over our way of life, the reasons why we do things or how we live here.
It is always the Soviet Union who gets the news through of what it has been doing. Its magnificent pamphlets and coloured booklets showing aspects of life in the Soviet Union are in the hands of the uncommitted peoples to see and to read. We have nothing to counteract such methods. That is the war of the flanks of N.A.T.O., which is now being fought. It is a war which N.A.T.O. should be watching, and we, from our Colonial Office, should be doing a great deal more about it.
I have said on previous occasions that in these days of nationalism, independence and the like, continued confidence

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in bases situated upon the territories of other nations is becoming of less and less value and importance. It is time that we faced the fact that in a few years' time these bases—I will not name them, but everybody knows what I am talking about—will not be ours.
The only answer—I know that it is expensive—is the mobile floating base, the degutted aircraft carrier, which can carry the lot and steam at 35 knots. I am not referring to the ordinary landing craft, which has to travel at eight knots. The mobile base could carry every item of equipment, munitions and weapons that was necessary to fight a small war such as the Korean War. A floating base could be moved to areas where there was danger or threats. Its movements need never be known to the enemy and it could not easily be blotted out by atomic attack. I therefore appeal again to my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defence to look into this suggestion and see whether, as a long-term policy, even though, admittedly expensive, it would not pay high dividends in the end.
I heard the speech of General Norstad and have a copy of the text of it. There seems to be an extraordinary amount of confusion about what he said. Admittedly, reading the speech, as I have done, several times, and underlining and marking extracts from it, there seemed to be contradictions in some of the things that he said. There were, however, two things which were quite clear.
Throughout this debate, there has been confusion on both sides of the House about the kite which General Norstad flew—it was only a kite—about N.A.T.O. having and becoming an independent fourth strategic striking force. One newspaper reporter—I think in the Evening Standard—said that this was accepted with enthusiasm by all the Parliamentary delegates at the conference. The right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) made a speech about it. He said, as I said in my speech which followed, that the suggestion was unsound, unnecessary and impracticable. If that is receiving the matter with enthusiasm, I should like to know what enthusiasm is. The right hon. Gentleman for Dundee, West and I were the only two people who even commented on the idea, for
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the simple reason that it was not put forward as a serious proposal.
I will read the relevant words. General Norstad said that ideas were being bandied about and he went on to say:
"The second idea is that of a N.A.T.O. strategic force. … It would, in fact, be one of the heavy strategic retaliatory forces"—
exactly like the American striking force.
"This is an extremely interesting thought, but one which has not, to my knowledge, been proposed by or within the Alliance. It has not been suggested by me or my headquarters."
I do not think that we need take the suggestion seriously. I do not know where it came from, but I could hazard a guess. There is one gentleman who is a bit of an empire builder and we all know his name. I am convinced that the Americans would never accept this for one moment.
The other and much more serious idea was also a kite. It was never a proposal, as the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) said that it was. General Norstad posed the question of how to meet the increasing demand of countries for a broader share in the control of atomic weapons which are based on their own territories. That demand has to be met. Something has to be done about it. General Norstad did not suggest how to do it. What he said was that it was essential to set at rest the fears of the smaller countries that, in the event, the Americans would not unlock the door and let them have the warheads in defence of one small piece of aggression or an aggression along the front. Great nervousness exists among the smaller countries in Europe.
It was in the Evening Standard, I believe, that an article said that we must clip the wings of the General. General Norstad was putting forward an idea which was exactly the opposite of what the Evening Standard was suggesting. He suggested that it was wrong to continue to have only one key in his or anybody else's pocket—and we all know who makes the decision for using that key. General Norstad's suggestion was that the weapons should be distributed to other countries. That raises the whole question of who is to say when we are to use these weapons. This matter must be considered extremely carefully, because it

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could be dangerous to have, say, 15 keys or four people deciding.
I am not making any suggestions. I am simply saying what General Norstad said. There was no proposal in what he said. There was, however, something which, to me, was quite clear. He thought, and Mr. Spaak probably also thought, that if there was any way of preventing the French from continuing with the manufacture of their own private atomic weapon, that might be it; that if the French had control of atomic weapons without having to go to the vast expense of manufacturing them themselves it might have that effect. I think that in the case of the French it is probably too late, but, certainly, it might stop the Germans even starting on this dangerous road, in which they would be followed by other countries obviously wanting the weapon, too.
I think that that was the real reason why General Norstad put forward the proposal, and that reason we should not be discarded too lightly. It was timed just before the debate in the French Assembly took place and to give the anti-nuclear factors in the French Assembly a bit of a boost. Why not? One day General de Gaulle may go and those who do not wish to see France have her own independent nuclear weapon may succeed in preventing it. Here, they would have a perfectly good reason for doing so. I hope, therefore, that hon. Members will not say that it is dangerous. It might be exactly the opposite and make things very much safer in the next ten to fifteen years in Western Europe.
There has been a good deal of loose talking about the weapons now in N.A.T.O. After the meeting of Heads of Government, in 1957, it was decided then—and everybody knew it—that these weapons would be made available to the forces in Europe. They are available now in very large numbers. It is no good suggesting that this must not happen. They are there now. What matters is the control of them, and, of course, the modernisation of existing weapons. Some are getting obsolete and some obsolescent, and General Norstad was asking for the modernisation of these weapons, which had been agreed to many years ago.
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As to recruitment, those hon. Members who go round saying that we shall not get the requisite numbers, 185,000 or 165,000 by the time that they are needed, are making it more difficult to get them. I am absolutely certain that we will have them, for various reasons. There are many ways of getting them. I give one example of what might be done. At this moment about 70 per cent. of the recruits presenting themselves at naval recruiting offices are being turned away, not on health grounds but simply because the Service is oversubscribed. Men say that they would like to join the Marine Commandos because the life is exciting, tough and dangerous. Why not say to them, "We have something just as good. Join the Parachute Brigade?" If necessary, we could double and treble the Brigade. Those are just the type of troops which might well be needed if events went sour in Africa, or in some other part of the world.
There are many ways of recruiting, but hon. Members opposite who screamed week after week and year after year for the abolition of conscription are now beginning to try to see whether we cannot have conscription back again. Is that really what they want? Do they not realise that if we had selected conscription we should need one man in 50 and that to train those men we should have to take 12,000 men out of the front line? Furthermore, we should start the vicious circle again. Immediately we had conscripts in a battalion the n.c.o.s would cease to extend their service and to recommend others to join. The end would be that we should have to have full conscription once more. That would be disastrous, and, therefore, we must succeed in our recruiting campaign.
I shall not say that one Regular soldier is worth five conscripts. That was disproved in the Korean War. The conscripts were splendid and just as good as any Regular. That is not the point. What we want is an all-Regular long-service Army, and the way to get it is to tell people that it is a good life and that the food, pay and conditions are good, and not to go round denigrating the Army. I hope that we can have films showing actual life in the Army, without any frills attached to them, which will convince people that this is a worth-while life.

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On the question of the deterrent, there has been far too much talk of what will happen if an atomic war breaks out. The whole object is to prevent an atomic war or any other war. I, like many other people, have taken part in two world wars and I am absolutely convinced that provided that the Russians know that from 68 bases round the world, within an hour or two, the whole of that country would be devastated if they used an atomic attack, they will not do it.
Mr. Zilliacus: What about political control?
Sir O. Prior-Palmer: Of all the inane interjections that is the most inane. Perhaps the hon. Member did not hear what I said.
I say again—and the hon. Member knows this—that if the Russians knew that within hours of an attack a counterattack would come from 68 directions at once—and as the hon. Member knows the aeroplanes are in the sky at the moment and there is no question of blotting them out on the ground—they would not risk it. They have said so. The moment that we start talking about unilateral disarmament we go straight back to the situation which obtained just before the last world war and at just such a comparable moment as this after the previous war.
It is vital, of course, that we should continue with disarmament talks. That is not very easy when the Russians do as they did at Geneva the last time. They produced proposals which were taken away, looked at, read, and accepted with very few amendments. They were presented with these and told, "There you are. We will accept these." They immediately rang up the Kremlin and said, "We are in a corner. They are going to accept." They then walked out and they have not been back since.
It is no good saying that we are dragging our feet. We have done everything that human reason can do without giving the whole thing away and saying that we will throw the whole of our manufacturers' arms open to inspection by the Russians, but, of course, we must not inspect theirs. Their serious suggestion was that the inspection team which would look at Russian factories should be composed entirely of Russians and people from behind the Iron Curtain
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while they came over and inspected our factories. Is that reasonable? Is that the real way to secure disarmament?
As for Polaris, does anybody think that Britain is not and has not been the No. 1 target for attack ever since this situation cropped up? Does it make the slightest difference having Polaris in Holy Loch? Of course not. If the Russians intend to attack with atomic weapons they will flatten the whole of Britain. It will not make the slightest difference whether or not we have bases here. If the Russians make up their minds to use atomic weapons that will be the end of this world as we know it.
It is up to every one of us, therefore, to support the Government and the Official Opposition in the retention of these deterrent weapons until the day comes, as I am perfectly convinced it will, when liberalisation inside Russia has really taken effect and the youth of that country have grown up and demanded something different from what they have now and their Government are forced to do things which they are not doing at the moment. Added to that is the effect of China with her 700 million people, plus the H-bomb.
8.0 p.m.
Mr. E. Shinwell: As everybody knows by now, there is some disagreement on this side of the House on the subject of defence. We also know that there is substantial disagreement between this side of the House and the Government on the same topic, but no more disagreement in either case than among the N.A.T.O. Parliamentarians who represented this country at the recent conference about the interpretation of General Norstad's speech. I have heard several statements made by hon. Members who returned from S.H.A.P.E., and those statements represented substantial disparities. The Minister of Defence's interpretation today differed from that of the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing (Sir O. Prior-Palmer).
I have a great deal of sympathy for General Norstad. He is a very fine man and has tried to do an excellent job within his capabilities and the limitations imposed upon him by the military conditions created by the respective N.A.T.O. countries. He has been hamstrung from the start—there is no doubt about that—particularly regarding the

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original purpose of N.A.T.O. and the assurances given first of all to General Eisenhower, as he then was, who was the first Supreme Commander, then to General Ridgway then to General Gruenther and, finally, to General Norstad. These assurances were to the effect that the various countries associated with N.A.T.O. would make a substantial contribution in conventional forces, both equipment and weapons to the Organisation.
The original purpose of N.A.T.O. had nothing whatever to do with the deployment or the manufacture of nuclear weapons. It is precisely because the N.A.T.O. countries, for the most part, failed to implement those assurances, that they and General Norstad have been compelled to turn their eyes in the direction of the manufacture and deployment of nuclear weapons. The facts are well known to those who have been associated with the problem from its inception.
As hon. Members are aware, I was associated with the late Ernest Bevin in the origination of N.A.T.O. How often during speeches in this House, and outside it, and sometimes in articles in the Press, have I referred to the defection of the French and to the inability, if not the unwillingness, of some of the N.A.T.O. countries to make a contribution that was worth while. Indeed, instead of progress being made, as the Minister of Defence said in his speech, there has been, proportionately, having regard to the responsibilities placed upon N.A.T.O. and the nature of the problem that confronts it, a constant deterioration.
I have discussed these matters with General Norstad. How well I know his anxiety to build up conventional forces so that the shield might be—I will not say, and he certainly did not say, efficient and wholly secure—capable of creating a pause in the event of aggression by a potential enemy. On one occasion not so long ago I went over to see him. I paid my own expenses. I did not travel at philanthropic expense. I thought that the trip was worth while. As a result, I had a briefing and recently had a conversation with him about what is called this new project of a fifteen-nation nuclear force.
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There has been a great deal of confusion in this debate about whether these proposals made by General Norstad are proposals at all. I happened to put a Question to the Lord Privy Seal yesterday. It was not answered orally, and I received a Written Answer. It was to the effect that General Norstad made no specific proposals at all, but that he was, as we sometimes say in certain plebian quarters, just chancing his arm. He was trying it on the nations who were present at that meeting.
Let us take a look at these nations—with great respect to them all and with a thorough understanding of their capabilities and limitations. France has been responsible for defection from its responsibilities to N.A.T.O. from the very beginning. Let me tell hon. Members that when General Eisenhower was appointed Supreme Commander I warned him about the French. How right I was then. I never believed I was going to be as right as I was at the time. Of course, it is partly attributable to the Indo-China affair and subsequently the Algerian war, but the fact is that respective Premiers and Ministers of Defence of France refused over and over again to face up to their responsibilities.
As for some of the other countries, it is by no means offensive to say—I am only stating the fact—that they are quite incapable of providing a substantial contribution. Belgium, for instance, promised two divisions. Those divisions never materialised. The two Scandinavian members, Norway and Denmark, made a contribution that was of no significance whatever. The Dutch said that they were a maritime nation and wanted to provide warships. I remember having a very intense quarrel with them about it, but it made no difference. I had as much influence on the Dutch as I sometimes have on my own Front Bench. [An HON. MEMBER: "Double Dutch."] Perhaps it is my fault. But this situation is something about which I could talk for quite a long time.
The Minister of Defence must know about it, however. It is true that he comes from a long line of Ministers of Defence. He is the eighth Minster of Defence since the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) became Minister of Defence after the war. I do

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not feel inclined to blame him for his lack of knowledge. It may be that he is concealing what he knows. That sometimes happens with members of the Government for reasons of security, and sometimes for reasons not altogether unaccountable—simply that they just do not know.
The right hon. Gentleman is not entirely to blame for what has happened. We had the right hon. Member for Woodford who did not stay long and then we had Lord Alexander of Tunis, a great military expert who got tired of it and threw up the sponge. Then we had the then Sir Walter Monckton, who threw the towel into the ring after a while, and then we had the present Prime Minister. [HON. MEMBERS: "Before that."] He came in the race at some time, but he did not last long. He had other fish to fry, or other fish to catch, and he was very successful in the long run. We had the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and we had Lord Head, who disagreed with the Government and resigned. Then we had the present Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations.
I make a confession to the House. My change of mind on this subject of nuclear strategy is due to the present Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations more than anybody else, because he was responsible for paragraph 12 of that memorable White Paper of 1958 when we learned, not for the first time but from the lips of a Government spokesman, that it was the declared intention of the allies—and this country was involved—in the event of a limited attack to use tactical atomic weapons and, subsequently, but without much ado, to use full-scale nuclear weapons. That is contained in the White Paper for 1958.
After all those right hon. Gentlemen came the present Minister of Defence. How is it possible to build up a coherent, co-ordinated, efficient defence policy if there are eight Ministers of Defence in the course of nine years, most of them either anxious to get out, just passengers in the Department, and in disagreement with their own Government on matters of defence policy? So we have been plunged willy-nilly into this cataclysm of nuclear strategy.
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Let us consider what issues are involved in this controversy. To begin with, there is some misunderstanding about the decisions reached at the annual conference of the Labour Party. There is some misunderstanding as to the nature and content of the official defence policy of the Labour Party, which was defeated at the annual conference. I want to deal with two items. This is not irrelevant, for it is important that these issues should be clarified. However, I will deal with the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) without further ado.
I can understand the hon. Gentleman's anxiety to look like the great leader of a great political party. He looks the part, but he does not have it in him. Indulgence in animadversions directed against my Front Bench or my hon. Friends below the Gangway is hardly the sort of thing one would expect from him. For example, he spoke as if the Liberal Party was responsible—and it is contained in the Liberal Amendment which is not to be called—for the declaration that this country could no longer be an independent nuclear Power. But that is contained in the official defence policy of the Labour Party. It is true that that policy was defeated at the annual conference, but not because of that item. That policy is still supported by my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench and by a substantial number—indeed, the majority—of my colleagues. I draw attention to it. A summary of the decision says:
"The Blue Streak fiasco has shown that Britain cannot maintain herself as an independent nuclear Power. In future the provision of a thermo-nuclear deterrent must be left to the U.S.A."
I have in mind the Amendment suggested by some of my hon. Friends and to which I appended my signature, but which Mr. Speaker decided not to call. In point of fact, the Labour Party in the House and in the country is united in agreeing that Britain should no longer regard itself as capable of being an independent nuclear Power.
Mr. John Stonehouse: Unilateralism.
Mr. Shinwell: As my hon. Friend says—it occurred to me also—unilateralism. So far, there is no disagreement. There are certain exceptions and I am not sure

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whether my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) is not one of the exceptions, and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hull, East (Cmdr. Pursey) might be another.
Mr. Paget: I wonder what my right hon. Friend agrees with. Speaking in July this year about this defence statement, he said:
"I read the Labour Party's defence statement. On the whole it is a considered and worth-while document … which the Government, instead of sniping at it, as the Minister did, should welcome. It is an advance on the present state of affairs. It says that we cannot regard ourselves as an independent nuclear Power, that we stand by the Western deterrent, and that we stand by N.A.T.O. I do nut know if the Government have noted that we have not abandoned the concept of N.A.T.O. I accept the defence statement …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th July, 1960; Vol. 627, c. 552.]
Is my right hon. Friend going to vote for it tonight?
Mr. Shinwell: I am extremely grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for having made part of my speech. There is no controversy about this, because it is perfectly true that at the time I said that, generally speaking—which is the same thing as "on the whole"; at least, I think it is—I accepted the official Labour Party defence statement. I had certain reservations and because of that I refused to vote for it and said so at a private meeting as well as in the House.
I also said and have said all along, and repeat tonight, that I still believe in the concept of N.A.T.O., so long as it is concerned with its original purpose and as long as it can be sustained in its original purpose. I reject completely, emphatically and deliberately the idea that N.A.T.O. can be made a more efficient and effective deterrent by associating it with the United States of America's deterrent, the control of which, whether we like it or not, is vested in the American President and nobody else.
There is something to which I attach considerable importance. I believe that it was the right hon. Member for Flint West (Mr. Birch) who used the argument that in the measure in which we deprived ourselves of the nuclear weapon, or associated ourselves with N.A.T.O., so were we playing into the hands of a potentially militaristic Germany. But
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that has happened already. The Germans do not require any incentive of that sort.
In the course of the last few weeks and months distorted and garbled reports have appeared in various newspapers, some of which are regarded as reputable organs. They were probably handouts distorted to suit the prejudices of certain people. The only newspaper which has adopted an objective outlook and tried to be fair is The Times. I regret that other newspapers, if I may use a phrase used by my late lamented friend, Nye Bevan, out of prejudice malice, spleen and bias prostituted their responsibilities to the general public by issuing the kind of statements which they did. They will not like me for that, but as I do not like them very much I will leave it at that.
This is what The Times said:
"Germans in N.A.T.O. Task Force? Battalion likely to be offered."
I shall not read it all but it says:
"The force is meant to be, as its name implies, a highly mobile unit which could be quickly brought into action wherever trouble broke out."
That might please those who believe in conventional forces, and I do not object to that, but it goes on to say:
"It is to have a permanent, internationally integrated staff, with a gradually increasing number of units at its disposal, and with the use of both conventional and nuclear weapons."
We do not need to dissociate ourselves from N.A.T.O. to make provision, either deliberately on the part of the United States or perhaps fortuitously—who can tell—for Germany to become the greatest military power in Europe armed with nuclear weapons. It is on the way, and there is no question about that.
I want to try to clear up this question of the decision reached by the Labour Party Conference because it has a bearing on this debate. Perhaps I had better read those parts of the resolutions that matter so that everybody can understand them:
"Conference demands that the Government should press for international agreement on complete disarmament"—
There is nothing wrong with that. This is the resolution of the Amalgamated Engineering Union about which there has been so much controversy and confusion. It goes on:
"and in the meantime, demands the unilateral renunciation of the testing, manufacture, stockpiling and basing of all nuclear weapons."

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Where? In Great Britain. That was the official defence policy. That is what the official defence statement said.
When we come to the resolution that was submitted by Mr. Frank Cousins of the Transport and General Workers' Union and carried by the Conference, what do we find? Was there a demand for the immediate renunciation of nuclear weapons, just like that? Not at all. It said:
"This Conference, believing that the great majority of the people of this country are earnestly seeking a lasting peace"—
nobody objects to that—
"and recognising that the present state of world tension accentuates the great danger of an accidental drift into war"—
and then comes the pregnant sentence—
"calls upon the Labour Party to make a clear declaration that a Labour Government will, when returned to office, establish our defence and foreign policies"—
and it goes on to indicate the lines of approach. It says that that is to be done when a Labour Government comes into office. That is the position. I am in agreement with this. First, that we abandon the concept of an independent British deterrent, and, secondly, that we reject the nuclear strategy in principle, but that we do not seek to advance it until the Labour Government comes into office. That seems to me to be quite right.
I come now to the Amendment. I want to tell the House something which I think it ought to be told because this was said in private and never revealed to the public. After all is said and done, if some people make disclosures in public of what happens in private, I also am entitled to do that if it affects me personally. Recently at two meetings of the Labour Party upstairs I advocated that we should not have a debate of this character today. That is within the recollection of my hon. Friends. I said, "Let us have a probing debate on General Norstad's proposals, if they are proposals, but do not let us divide on issues which have been settled by conference, and particularly let us not prejudge decisions that may be reached as a result of further consultation." Why did I want that?
I come now to what I think is most important. I wanted it because I believe there is great advantage in a probing
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debate. There is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding and so many suspicions and doubts among hon. Members, even among the experts who think that they know all about defence, because the situation changes so rapidly. Indeed, the Minister of Defence admitted that. So much of that exists that I thought it would be advantageous for us today, or indeed at any time, to ask questions about General Norstad's speech, to ascertain the views of the Government, to express opinions and to have, so to speak, a Council of State on this subject of defence, and at the end of the day to come to no decision, but, having collected the voices, to seek to make up our minds about the possibility of a solution. That is what I wanted; no more than that.
The trouble with the Amendment is this. Of course, there are some parts of it which we accept, "multilateral disarmament" and so on, but it is full of nuclear implications. I say this because I believe it to be true. Perhaps it is not very convincing to those who do not believe it, but I say it nevertheless, that the Amendment runs counter to the decision reached at the annual conference of the Labour Party. Because of that, I am sorry that I cannot support it.
I understand that, as a result, there may be sanctions. I hope that nobody will try foolish tricks of that kind. [Interruption.] I hope that they will not, because, if they try foolish tricks of the kind which have been threatened, they will make the biggest mistake they have ever made in this party. Suggestions of that kind have been made. I warn them not to indulge in threats of that kind because that is not the way to build up unity in this party. If I am wrongly advised—and nothing of the sort has been suggested—all I can say is that that is not what I read in the newspapers. [Laughter.] I have a very much better answer than that. Hon. Members should wait until they hear this answer. We will wait and see, and if nothing of the sort happens my anticipations will not be realised. I will leave it at that.
On the subject of defence, intense differences exist in the Labour Party. They always have. But make no mistake about it; it is far better to have one's

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differences exposed to the public, in the hope that they may be cleared away in due course so that we can get on the wheels again and discuss matters of economic and social importance, than it is to conceal those differences and pretend that they do not exist.
I propose to do what my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale (Mr. Greenwood) indicated he would do; I do not propose to vote for the Motion. I think that it is a wrong Motion and an unwise Motion. What is more, it is an unnecessary Motion. It is irrelevant, when we might have discussed the question of General Norstad's proposals in a quiet fashion, without undue heat or excitement. We could have discussed them in a pedestrian fashion, in the hope that we might have extracted more satisfactory assurances from the Government. That is my view.
Nobody on this side doubts that the Government have been responsible for many failures in defence. Of course they have. We ought to be attacking them. [Interruption.] This sort of thing leaves me quite cold. I used to get this sort of thing when I was carrying out propaganda to build up the Labour Party, before some of my hon. Friends were born. This sort of thing does not matter. I was about to say, when this unseemly interruption occurred, that I have not detected many speeches from hon. Members on this side of the House making a vigorous attack on the Government—at least, I have not heard many such speeches from members of the official Opposition.
Mr. Edward Short: I am waiting to make one.
Mr. Shinwell: I shall be delighted to hear it.
I do not care much for the Government opposite any more than any hon. Member on this side does. They have been responsible for many failures. In the course of the speech I made at the weekend I said that it was only the troubles about defence that concealed the failures of the Government. If any of my hon. Friends wants to attack the Government vigorously, hotly and even passionately, no one will enjoy the adventure better than I. Meanwhile, we
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have this difference among us, and to make it clear that it is one that is honestly held I shall not vote for the Motion, although I do not advise others to follow my example.
8.31 p.m.
Sir Arthur Vere Harvey: When the right hon. Member for Easing-ton (Mr. Shinwell) was Minister of Defence I admired the job that he did. As a rule, his contributions to defence debates have been of use to the House. However, I was disappointed in his contribution tonight. I have never heard him attack the Press. We all have to take what comes from the Press, whether it is good or bad, and the right hon. Gentleman is good at taking both as a rule.
Speaking as an individual Tory back bencher, I am sorry to see these differences among the party opposite—not because of party politics, but because these matters are reported overseas and are frequently misquoted in countries other than Soviet Russia. This does not do Britain any good. I am sorry to see these differences, and I will leave it at that, merely hoping that the situation will mend itself in the near future. The right hon. Gentleman catalogued the various Ministers of Defence, but I noticed that he carefully omitted to mention one—Mr. A. V. Alexander, now Lord Alexander of Hillsborough—who bears quite a considerable responsibility for our actions in defence matters in the immediate post-war years.
The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) referred to mobility. This is a very important matter, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will tell us a little more about how it will be achieved. If we are to have smaller forces we must be able to move rapidly not only the men, but the equipment. Nearly two years ago we were told by the then Minister of State, that the Britannic contract with Short Brothers and Harlands was about to be signed. I understand that it is still not signed. Whatever the Government's difficulties may be they should make up their minds about this matter and either buy the Britannic or scrap it and support another project, or buy something from the United States, so that we may be sure that we can move our equipment quickly

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in an emergency. We may suddenly have to move several battalions to Africa, or to some other part of the world, and we may have to move the heavy equipment with them. This is a matter which can be ignored no longer.
The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot), who I am very glad to see back in the House, because I originally came into the House in 1945, when he did, and am probably more glad to see him back than some of his colleagues, frankly disappointed me with his speech, which made no real contribution to the debate. He quoted the R.B.47 incident off the North Russian coast, which, I thought, was most unfair. We know perfectly well that this aircraft was outside territorial waters, probably checking up on the Russian radar system. [Laughter.] Perhaps hon. Gentlemen opposite will not laugh when I have finished.
I would remind the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) that not so many months ago Soviet trawlers were steaming just outside the three-mile limit off Malta when an exercise was taking place, and the exercise had to cease. We hear nothing about these things, and I think that it would be more appropriate sometimes if hon. Members would quote the disdemeanours of the Soviet Union. They always quote what the Western nations do and never what the other side does, and I should like to hear a bit more about the latter.
My hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Critchley) made a very thoughtful and helpful speech in many directions, but talked rather glibly about transferring our weapons from V-bombers to Polaris. It is not quite as simple as that. I think he mentioned 1964 or 1965, but if he thinks that we are to hand over our V-bombers to N.A.T.O. and have the Polaris in four or five years' time, he must have another think. He also suggested that Skybolt should be scrapped, but what good will the V-bombers be without Skybolt four years' hence? If he was a pilot who had to fly a V-bomber without the stand-off bomb, he would probably not make that suggestion. We should be very careful in making these recommendations, which are misinterpreted outside. We have got a very effective V-bomber force, to which I will refer in a moment.
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The war has been over for fifteen and a half years, and, fortunately, we have been free of major conflicts, except for the Korean War. I believe that the appreciation by the then Government in 1947, was that there might be a major conflict about 1955. We were then in opposition, and we had to get our information in the way in which hon. Members opposite have to do now, but that was my information. It has not happened, and I believe that it has not happened because of the deterrent. For that reason, I think that we need a strong shield in Western Europe—the strongest we can have. General Norstad is a very great general, honest to a point, and, as the right hon. Gentleman opposite said, has done his job in extreme difficulties, even from his own Government in the United States. It must have been very difficult for him, but he has at any rate cleared up some misunderstandings.
As I understand, he now wants medium-range ballistic missiles under his corn-man to supplement N.A.T.O. manned aircraft which will become vulnerable to enemy ground-to-air missiles. I can understand him wanting them, but I am rather frightened about it. Secondly, he wants control over N.A.T.O.'s nuclear weapons in the hands of the N.A.T.O. Council, but is that wise or not? Out of the 15 nations in NA.T.O. I wonder how many have fully paid their subscriptions up-to-date.
There are some countries, without going into details, which I should not like to see having the key to the cub-board of the nuclear warheads. Quite frankly, I would rather see the present system continue. Rather than spread the responsibility in the Western world, I would prefer to see the new President of the United States take the full responsibility; and I hope that will happen.
The disappointment to me is the part which the French have played in N.A.T.O. Here is a great Power, and, whatever we say, the French are a great Power economically today, strong, trading well and with a good balance of payments, but what contribution have they made to Western Europe in recent years? Practically none. They have supplied very few troops, because most of their own are in North Africa, and we are now having to house United States tactical aircraft which General de Gaulle refused to allow to remain on French territory.

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It would not have cost the French anything if he had; indeed, they might even have gained by it, if they had allowed them to remain in France. Until we get the good will of the French, and get them to pull their weight and share the responsibility, N.A.T.O. will have a setback.
My fear is that, if N.A.T.O. acquired these 1,200-mile to 1,500-mile missiles, a missile of that calibre could start off a major war. In my view, it would be all the better if the shield could manage without nuclear weapons, but I am far from happy about its conventional forces. Quite apart from the troops and their mobility, I wish that we had an infinitely better air co-ordination in Western Europe, with the French pulling their weight. In the long term, like my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Chatham, I believe that the real answer is the carrying of the weapon in the submarine, the Polaris weapon. Quite frankly, instead of having American aircraft situated on British airfields, with nuclear weapons housed on British soil, I would rather have American submarines occasionally calling into Holy Loch to take on stores and food and doing their business several hundred miles out in the ocean. That will be far more acceptable and, I think, far more effective in the long run, if they are able to build up this force.
What are the British Government doing? We have ordered two submarines. I know that they can chase enemy submarines, but I would like to see a British submarine which would carry the weapon. We are told that the V-bombers will last another ten years. I question that. They will last several years, but with breakages, metal fatigue and all the things which can happen, I cannot see the V-bombers lasting another ten years. I hope, therefore, that the Government will come to a decision. If it will cost us money, they should take the broad view and order the weapon, half a dozen, perhaps. Let us face that, economising in other directions. Let us order the weapon which we know will be capable of doing its business.
Of course, there is always the risk of small countries making nuclear weapons, although I do not think that this will
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happen in the immediate future. The French have made two for trials, but I understand that they are not very effective weapons compared with what we have made, certainly not compared with what the United States and Russia have made. I think that the French are finding the business very expensive, particularly when they really ought to be spending money on other things, in helping N.A.T.O., for example. I do not believe that other countries will necessarily follow suit.
I come now to more general matters of defence and certain remarks which I wish to address to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence. First, I wish to place on record my appreciation of his speech today. If I may say so, with great respect, I thought that it was a balanced speech. My right hon. Friend kept to the point and delivered a speech which started our debate, at any rate, on a good note. We must remember, however, that technical progress, as the right hon. Member for Easington said, is proceeding very rapidly. I have been in the aircraft industry, in one way or another, for thirty-five years, and I find myself getting out of date and having difficulty in understanding current problems and how we should measure up to them. This is one of the problems which Parliament faces. However much we read on the subject, we are inclined to get out of date on these very difficult matters and we necessarily have to rely on advisers, on Ministers, and on people who are informed by the experts. This problem is always with us.
Since the war, orders have been placed by successive Ministers of Defence for practically all the equipment which has been offered, in the hope that it would come in useful and play a part. This has been very expensive. We know, for instance, about the Swift fighter which was cancelled at a cost of about £36 million. Not a single squadron of those fighters ever came into being. There are many other examples where the taxpayers' money have been spent in that way—I do not say squandered—and not sufficient thought has been given to these very important matters. It is not always money that counts. It is time, and time is a very important factor.
I should like to see a much closer relationship between the Ministry of

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Aviation and industry and the research establishments. I wish that my right bon. Friend would take the industry much more into his confidence. Let him give people in industry some secrets. We must trust them. After all, they are making the gear. Let us trust them with forward thinking, letting them know what to expect and what ought to be built, tying their effort up with the work of the Government research establishments. In this way, progress could be made. It would be possible to accelerate delivery of equipment and achieve very much better progress while, at the same time, producing something more effective.
The hon. Leader of the Liberal Party was challenged by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence to pay a visit to Bomber Command. If he has not done so, I strongly recommend him to accept that offer because, with respect, as leader of a party, I think that it is his duty to see what the men of that Command are doing. In my view, they are doing a magnificent job, at times at great risk to themselves. If one sees them at work one realises that we have something there which is helping Britain in world affairs today, something which will ensure that we have our say.
I was in America recently and made all the inquiries I could make as an ordinary back bencher about Skybolt and was told that it was proceeding satisfactorily. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Chatham said that the Minister was losing confidence. The right hon. Member for Belper is always saying that Skybolt is about to be cancelled. The right hon. Member always knows more about Skybolt than the Government know and that surprises me a little. That, however, is not my information. If Skybolt is good enough for Strategic Air Command, I think it good enough for the Royal Air Force. Of course, there is always the risk that it may be superseded by something else while it is still being developed, but that happens with all equipment. The right hon. Member should not know more about that than any of us. The indications, however, are that it will be successful and we must press on with this equipment.
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I wish to thank the Prime Minister for the part that he has played in these affairs. If we cast our minds back to what happened in the United Nations, a few weeks ago, we realise that the debates there were in the doldrums. I was told by Americans of both parties that when he went to New York he lifted the whole thing out of the doldrums.
Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: Does the hon. Member want a job?
Sir A. V. Harvey: No, the hon. Member is quite wrong in suggesting that. I already have one which keeps me busy.
Would the Prime Minister have been able to do that without the V-bomber force behind him? I say "no", it could not have been done. I urge my right hon. Friend to go ahead, to watch expenditure very carefully, and to see that Britain plays her part in all these affairs.
8.47 p.m.
Mr. Edward Short: The one or two points I wish to put are based on the belief that deliberate, premeditated war has now been relegated almost to a position where there is very little possibility of it happening.
I believe that the recent meeting in Moscow, the Summit Communist meeting, showed that international Communism has been forced by the balance of power, or balance of terror, in the world to abandon what hitherto has been a fundamental part of its strategy. International Communism has always previously benefited by war, but today, for the first time in our generation, total nuclear war would destroy both Communism and capitalism. Thus, for the first time there is an identity of interest between the Communist world and the non-Communist world. My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) said that this was the moment for a new initiative. Perhaps I could add to the reasons he gave that now there is this identity of interest.
I believe that this rules out the possibility of deliberate, premeditated war, but it is important to remember that it does not rule out the possibility of war. The balance of terror, the Warsaw Pact plus the heavy Russian strategic

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deterrent on one side, and N.A.T.O. plus Strategic Air Command on the other, has removed the danger of deliberate aggression, but I believe that it has increased considerably the danger of war by accident or incident. If that is so, a first essential in N.A.T.O. strategy is to prevent incidents developing into nuclear war. I should put that as one of the basic elements in the strategy of N.A.T.O.
At the moment, as many hon. Members have said, N.A.T.O. is quite incapable of doing this. It is incapable of guaranteeing that a relatively small incident will not develop quickly into a nuclear war. This is so because the members of N.A.T.O., particularly France and Britain, have played the fool with N.A.T.O. They have imposed on N.A.T.O. this task of ensuring that incidents in Europe do not become major war and, having done so, they have not had the political courage to supply the means to carry it out.
N.A.T.O. can equate itself with Russian power in Europe, first, by an undue reliance on nuclear arms—reliance to such an extent that nuclear arms would have to be used from the word "go", even in a very small incident. Lord Montgomery said in a speech in Paris, when he was Deputy Supreme Commander, that nuclear weapons would be used from the very beginning. Secondly, N.A.T.O. can equate itself with Russian power only by reliance to a much greater extent than most people imagine on the existence of the American Strategic Air Command.
I suggest that this is a fantastically dangerous state of affairs. It is due partly to the unwillingness of N.A.T.O. members, particularly Britain and France, to face the political consequences of the provision of adequate conventional forces which would enable the alliance either to contain an incident or to hold it long enough for a political decision to be made on the first use of atomic weapons. It is also partly due to a changing conception of the purpose of N.A.T.O., mentioned by other hon. Members, which I regard as one of the most dangerous features in the world today. N.A.T.O. was set up twelve years ago as a temporary defensive alliance. It is becoming regarded not as a temporary expedient or a temporary defen-
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sive alliance but as a permanent deterrent.
In this changing conception of N.A.T.O. there are two features to note. First, it is becoming regarded as permanent—and I believe that Britain ought resolutely to refuse to regard N.A.T.O. as a permanent feature of the international scene. I am sorry that the Minister is not listening to me. If we regard N.A.T.O. as permanent, we say that the division of the world is permanent, too, and I refuse to accept that. Talk about Atlantic Union and that sort of thing helps to solidify the division of the world.
The second feature to note about the changing conception of N.A.T.O. is that it is regarded now not solely as a defensive alliance to prevent incidents from becoming wars but rather as a deterrent to major deliberate war. I agree that this latter task is extremely important, but it is not the job of N.A.T.O.; it is the job of the Strategic Air Command across the other side of the Atlantic. We may deter aggression if we have sufficient force, but we cannot deter incidents. With the best will in the world, incidents may occur in Europe. With Europe armed, as it is, with nuclear weapons, the chances are that even a relatively small incident would become a nuclear war which would lead to the destruction of Europe. This is an appallingly dangerous state of affairs. I do not know how the people of Britain and France can sleep soundly in their beds knowing that the utter incompetence and political cowardice of their Governments have lad us into this position. I wish more people understood it.
I support a straightforward military alliance of the Atlantic countries, pending the establishment of a world organisation with sufficient force to keep the peace, and I am sure that that is the right conception of N.A.T.O. I support the possession of nuclear arms by the West until multilateral disarmament can be achieved. But if N.A.T.O. develops into a second, heavy Western strategic deterrent, I am quite sure that it will lose the support of public opinion in Britain and throughout Europe.
I have only five minutes left, and I will enumerate briefly five things which I think should be done. The first is that

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the Governments—and the Oppositions—of the N.A.T.O. countries must accept the political consequences of giving N.A.T.O. sufficient conventional weapons to prevent minor incidents from developing into nuclear wars—as General Norstad asked in his Paris speech.
Secondly, I believe that we should support the Norstad proposal to put the nuclear components of N.A.T.O. tactical weapons into N.A.T.O. control. We should go on from there to impose a rigid fifteen-nation control on the first use of atomic weapons. The Prime Minister, in a typical bit of muddled thinking some time ago, called this fifteen fingers on the trigger. It is, of course, no such thing, but if the nations of Europe and the world go on making their own individual atomic weapons, we soon will have fifteen fingers on the trigger. I propose fifteen fingers on the safety catch. We can have this sort of political control only if we are prepared to give N.A.T.O. adequate conventional weapons to force a halt and to contain incidents. The two proposals go together.
Thirdly, I believe that we have to resist the conception of giving N.A.T.O. such weapons as the I.R.B.M. and Polaris. I admit at once the great difficulty there is nowadays of differentiating between the tactical and the strategic use of weapons. It is extremely difficult. None the less, I am quite sure that these long-range weapons are clearly in the nature of a heavy strategic deterrent, and that, as I have tried to explain, is fatal to the task of N.A.T.O. in Europe.
Fourthly, I hope that we will look again at the conception of disengagement in Europe. Since I last spoke on it in the House disengagement has become immeasurably more difficult by the re-arming of Western Germany, which I always opposed. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale (Mr. Greenwood), I am very sorry that the Government would not look at the Rapacki Plan. Disengagement is extremely difficult now that Germany has been rearmed, but I hope that that plan can be looked at again. It is important to prevent incidents developing into wars, but it is even more important to prevent incidents occurring at all. If we could pull the two power blocs away from each other and put a few hundred miles
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between them in Europe, we should be making a great contribution to that end.
Finally, we should constantly recall N.A.T.O. to its original objective of making the West strong enough to talk to the East. That was the original purpose. We must always remember that N.A.T.O. is not a substitute for a settlement in the world. It is not a substitute for agreement. If we do not remember that, then N.A.T.O., with all the N.A.T.O. proliferations—the Atlantic institute, Atlantic Union and the rest—will solidify and make more permanent the tragic division of the world.
As I see it, the basic problem of this generation is not how to destroy the other half of the world which lives under a political system different from our own. The problem is how to live in peace and security and friendship with the other half of the world.
8.59 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: The debate today was arranged in anticipation of the N.A.T.O. conference that is to take place in a few days' time. The Motion is directed to the problems that we hope will be dealt with at that conference. We also wished to cover the question of the Polaris depot ship but, unhappily, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) explained, the rules of order in connection with anticipation limited us very severely in what we could put down and what we could say on the subject. As I understand it, we are debarred, for example, from discussing at all the problems of location, but I should make it quite plain that had it not been for that we should certainly have had something to say on that subject.
It is natural that in a debate of this kind, despite the relatively narrow terms of our Motion, that there should be many speeches, as indeed there have been, on wider issues. I do not propose this evening to deal with the great issues of unilateral versus multilateral disarmament, or on neutralism versus remaining in the alliance. I have spoken on those issues on other occasions, and I hope that my hon. Friends who disagree with me in these matters will not regard me as discourteous if I do not reply to their speeches. I will confine myself as far as possible to the Motion itself and to

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the criticisms that we have to make in it of the action or inaction of the Government.
I should like to express my sympathy with my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot) on the death of his father. I was glad that in the course of his speech, despite the fact that he may have found it a little difficult, he managed for a large part of it to speak, so it seemed to me, in support of the Motion on the Order Paper.
The Motion begins with a reference to multilateral disarmament. I hope that nobody is going to treat this as a kind of casual reference which one must bring in. It is essential that we should never forget that all-round controlled disarmament covering every weapon is the only ultimate solution of the problem with which we are confronted.
I will begin with a few remarks and a few questions on this particular matter directed to the Lord Privy Seal. There is no denying that in the last few months relations between the Soviet bloc and the West have deteriorated badly and that in the course of that deterioration the outlook for multilateral disarmament appears to have become gloomier. Nevertheless, I am quite optimistic about this difficult but vital problem. I think, on the contrary, that we may now be at the beginning of a new and more hopeful period. I say that because I believe that at least one reason for the difficulty in making progress in these last few months has been the imminence of the American Presidential election. I believe that Mr. Khrushchev did not think it worth while continuing negotiations with the old administration in the United States and from what one hears there may be a prospect that he will be willing to do so with the new administration. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper said, there is also the outcome of the Communist Summit Conference which certainly justifies some hope on our side.
The conference on nuclear tests has been adjourned for some time, but we can at least say this about it. There are only three difficulties standing in the way and they are all political difficulties. No further technical difficulties exist. It is a matter of reaching agreement on the composition of the control commission
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and on the number of on-site inspections that may be made. It is surely not beyond the wit of a conference which desires agreement to solve these problems on the basis of compromise. In considering our attitude at that conference we must always bear in mind that, beyond a certain minimum degree of control, it is far better to have an agreement than to have a breakdown of the conference with the great danger that tests will be resumed in Russia and the United States.
Secondly, on the broader issue of disarmament, the United Nations is rather bogged down in procedure, but I would like to press strongly the suggestion which we have made from these benches before and which has now been taken up both by Canada and India, that instead of going back to the Ten-Power Conference, with five on each side, we should definitely decide in favour of adding certain neutral countries to this conference. The Russians, as it happens, have now proposed that there should be five neutral members in addition to the ten previous members.
I do not think that we can accept their particular five as exactly corresponding with what we would regard as neutral countries. But this is essentially a negotiable matter; I hope that the Lord Privy Seal will be able to tell us that he is sympathetic to this idea and that the British Government will follow it up in the United Nations as soon as possible.
I again state our view, which has been expressed on many occasions, that it is no use going very far with disarmament talks unless and until China is brought into them. I do not propose to go over the broader issues which we discussed yesterday of the admission of China to her rightful place in the United Nations.
If the Lord Privy Seal has doubts about the speed with which that can be done, would it not at least be putting out something of a bridge in that direction to propose that China be invited to the disarmament talks straight away?
Meanwhile, however, in the present state of the world—I emphasise the ward "meanwhile", which occurs in our Motion—we believe that the Western alliance is necessary and that we must have adequate defences. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central (Mr. Short) that, as

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my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper said, we have never regarded the N.A.T.O. alliance as an end in itself. Of course not. The Western Alliance is necessary only because the United Nations in its present form cannot guarantee security and protection to any nation which is threatened by attack.
We know that that is so. We deplore the fact that it is so, but its very structure, with the veto in the Security Council, without any real attempt to set up an authority with power which would be recognised and acknowledged all over the world, leads us inevitably to the conclusion that it cannot perform this function.
I say without hesitation that the United Nations has not only done a good job in the Congo but has prevented the relapse into chaos which might very likely otherwise have occurred and, quite possibly, averted the danger of the Congo becoming a battlefield in Africa. I certainly subscribe to that view, but we are bound to admit that experience in the Congo shows the extraordinary difficulty in present circumstances of the United Nations having and exercising the kind of power which would be needed if we were to obtain protection from it.
In those circumstances we have to rely on collective security in the more limited sense of the phrase. I think that the first article in the N.A.T.O. alliance agreement is a repetition of Article 2 of the United Nations Charter. The United Nations Charter recognises the possible need for regional pacts and alliances. Therefore, there is no question of any conflict between the Western alliance and the United Nations. It is simply that so long as the United Nations exists in its present form we have to have some other form of protection. We have to have friends. We have to stand together.
I hope that the time will come when that will not be necessary. But when we reach, as I hope we shall, all-round controlled multilateral disarmament, I do not believe that a safe future will lie for the countries of the world in simply a relapse into unbridled national sovereignty for each one of them. On the contrary, if and when we reach that desirable ideal, what we must think of is
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not unbridled national sovereignty but, on the contrary, moving into a closer association which will alone make possible some form of world government. That is how I see the development, the defensive alliance at the moment, because it is necessary, moving on, we hope, to multilateral disarmament and possibly, at the same time—one cannot forecast everything—moving on towards some form of world government and thereby some merging of sovereignty in the process.
With that introduction, may I pass to the more specific parts of the Motion. I begin with a few words about Polaris and our attitude to what has been done. Our general attitude is that if we are, as we are, members of the Western Alliance and sharing the risks which that necessarily involves, we are also entitled to share the essential decisions. This is a basic principle which I do not think can possibly be denied. It is in the light of that that we take the view that what has been done by the Government in this matter is not adequate to the situation.
The Prime Minister has, in effect, told us that only in one matter, namely, the use of British territorial waters by a Polaris submarine in an emergency, is there really complete and adequate joint control. It may be said that that is something, but it is extraordinarily limited. I should have thought it most unlikely that in an emergency a Polaris submarine would be likely to want to fire any missiles in British territorial waters. It may be some consolation to know that in those circumstances we can say to the depot ship "Go away," but, in our opinion, this is not nearly enough. Nor is it enough to dismiss the rest of the problem by vague phrases such as "We rely on the general understanding and co-operation that we have with the United States."
We ask specifically for proper participation in the decisions about the itineraries taken by these submarines under peacetime conditions. I am speaking of peacetime conditions. We are told that this is absurd because we have no reason to fear that these submarines will take any provocative measures, or will involve themselves in provocative situations, and that they are quite different from the U2 or the RB47. I admit that on the face of it a submarine which

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costs £45 million is expensive, and obviously the American Government would not wish to lose one. But, frankly, in this situation it is extremely hard to be sure what might or might not develop. We cannot be certain.
In any case, what is the objection to our being made privy to what these submarines are doing? If the Americans are allies and friends of ours, why should they object to telling us? I am not suggesting that the House of Commons should be told or even that all the Government should be told, but why should there not be an arrangement that at least a senior British naval officer should be kept in touch with what they are doing so that if anything about which we might have doubts occurred the British Government could be informed and the matter taken up with our allies?
My second point is this. We are perfectly entitled, when the United States asks us for facilities of this kind, to say to them, "We are not satisfied about consultation over the whole wide front". It is not only a matter of knowing the peacetime voyages of these submarines. I suggest that what we are principally concerned with is this. The first decision, as one of my hon. Friends said, to use nuclear weapons should be taken only in consultation and collectively. Let me hasten to add that it is no use fobbing us off with the answer, "If the Russians train and direct a whole flight of rockets on to the major cities of the United States, the Americans will not consult us". We know that. We are not concerned with that situation. We are concerned with what we believe is a much more probable situation in which, as has been said by many hon. Members, disputes develop into armed conflicts and armed conflicts into conventional struggles, and so on. As on other occasions, we could, and should, have asked for something far more specific than we have had up to now.
We also want to see the end of the Thor missile bases. The Minister of Defence got himself into difficulty about this. He defended the Polaris missile, I think rightly, on the ground that it was a second strike weapon, but he cannot deny that the Thor missile is not a second strike weapon. It is, on the contrary, a first strike weapon. By the same token, therefore, the sooner we get rid
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of it the better. The right hon. Gentleman said that as soon as the Polaris was available in any quantity the Thor would be obsolescent. He had better check up with his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister who, when asked on this very point, said, on the contrary, that the time was a long way off before we would be able to get rid of the Thor missiles.
I pass now to the other questions raised in our Motion concerning the problem of N.A.T.O. It has been apparent for some time that there are three major weaknesses and dangers, each of them associated with the other, in the N.A.T.O. Alliance. First, there has been an excessive reliance upon the use of nuclear weapons. Secondly, there is the danger of the spread of nuclear weapons within the alliance. Thirdly, there is the complete failure to solve the problem of political collective control. Our charge against the Government concerning the first of these three matters is that they aided and abetted the creation of the situation in which we find ourselves, and that on the second and third of the charges—stopping the spread or establishing effective control—their attitude has been completely negative. They have failed utterly to put forward any constructive proposals. We suspect that one of the reasons for that is their fear that by so doing they would find themselves in difficulty with the idea of this country continuing to have an independent nuclear deterrent of its own.
Even today we have had no real assurances. The Minister of Defence told us that he could not answer the questions that were put to him because the talks were to begin on Friday. I know what will happen. After the talks are over, we shall be told that they were secret and that we cannot be told of anything that happened at them. This, however, is no new matter. If it were a new problem one might have sympathy with the Government's point of view, but it is not. All these are old problems and I will deal with them briefly in turn.
First, as regards the over-emphasis on nuclear weapons, there is no denying that since 1957 British policy at least has been based on the assumption that at a relatively early stage in any conflict nuclear weapons would be used in Europe. This was put succinctly by

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General Norstad in his recent speech to the N.A.T.O. Parliamentarians, when he said:
"A great English newspaper … stated that SACEUR believes 'that any penetration of the land frontiers ought to be stopped decisively, at once, if necessary, by the use of nuclear weapons'."
That goes much too far. The whole implication of it is that at once, as soon as there is any attack at all, nuclear weapons are to be used. We regard that as profoundly dangerous. We regard it not only as dangerous because, obviously, the use of nuclear weapons of any kind which may, alas, lead to wholesale nuclear war is itself bad. We regard it as dangerous because, in practice, it is extremely unlikely that Governments would dare to take this step. It is extremely likely that the Russians would be well aware that Governments would not take that step. Therefore, the whole idea of an effective deterrent to Russian aggression is not maintained if that is the kind of thing that is said.
It is true that in the same speech, General Norstad said rather different things. Part of our difficulty concerning his speech is that at different points it seems to contradict itself. He said—and my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper quoted it earlier this afternoon—that
"our forces must have a substantial conventional capability. They must be able to operate where the military situation permits, without using arms and weapons equipped with nuclear warheads. This will require shield forces of the general magnitude being provided under our present programme, a programme which, I regret to say, is not yet completed. I press for its completion."
Therefore, do not let us have any talk to the effect that General Norstad is satisfied with the conventional forces which exist at the moment. Quite plainly he is not. I do not propose to go into the technical details, but there is no denying that there is a serious shortfall in conventional forces. I ask the Government, first, whether they accept this and what contribution they will make to improve the strength of our conventional forces, thereby making it not necessary to rely on nuclear weapons at the same point. Can they assure us that there will be more mobility for our forces and that they will be better equipped? Can they tell us what they have in mind for reducing our commitments overseas and
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ensuring that the minimum forces are available in Europe?
General Norstad in his speech has also demanded that these I.R.B.M.s should be made available. This question has been dealt with by a number of hon. Members and I do not propose to say much about it. I think that the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) put our point of view extremely well. We hold that there ought to be a line drawn as clearly as can be between tactical battlefield weapons, which although we certainly want to see the point at which they might be used postponed as far as is conceivably possible, we admit should be under the S.H.A.P.E. command, and anything larger than that which certainly should not be.
If we are talking about weapons like Polaris which will throw half a megaton or 500 kilotons, a bomb 25 times as great as that dropped on Hiroshima, it is a little silly to talk of it as being a tactical battle-weapon. Nor is it really satisfactory to be told that, of course, these are only to take the place of aircraft and that aircraft will not be able to get through in the short time and we must have missiles instead. The point is that aircraft do not have to drop nuclear weapons at all and therefore there is a very great difference between them.
I pass to the second weakness—the danger of the spread of nuclear weapons. Here we must recognise that it is not only the prestige advantage which attracts France and possibly other countries as well to having their own nuclear weapons. There is, as I think the hon. Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Critchley) rightly said in his interesting speech, a fear on the part of some of the European nations that the United States, when it comes to it, will not be prepared to support Europe if there is a conventional or even a nuclear attack.
I will not pronounce on whether these fears are justified. On the whole, I do not think that they are, but they exist undoubtedly and they, of course, lead individual nations to the desire to insure themselves against that risk. But this itself creates difficulties, because it frightens the United States still more and at the same time, when countries concentrate upon providing nuclear weapons for themselves they endanger still further the possibility and prospect

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of having adequate conventional forces in the alliance.
I should like to ask the Government what they have done to try to stop the spread of nuclear weapons within the alliance and what they have done in discussion, for instance, with the French Government on this. Have they had any talks on how the French might be dissuaded from their present efforts? What do they propose as a way of solving this problem? For my part this can only be solved in terms of the third problem, that of control.
Here again the position is profoundly unsatisfactory. The Minister of Defence quoted what he regarded as being the present position. He said that General Norstad and S.H.A.P.E. were ultimately under the control of the N.A.T.O. Council, but that is really not good enough. People to this day do not know whether the Americans guarding the nuclear warheads will take their orders from General Norstad in his capacity as commander under N.A.T.O. or in his capacity as an American general. This has never been cleared up.
The fact that this is so comes out very plainly in General Norstad's own proposals, because if indeed the present situation were so satisfactory, why should he have advanced new proposals? I agree with the Minister of Defence that when one analyses them they do not amount to anything very different from what was quoted at us before, but the position is that nobody really believes that. At the moment they do not know how the N.A.T.O. Council is to operate, with no precise machinery or arrangements for consultation.
I agree that the use of the terms "Fourth Atomic Power", and even "N.A.T.O. Pool" is highly misleading. The idea of a pool suggests different countries entitled to draw upon it. This is not proposed. What then should we propose? We want, first of all, a political control—control by Governments and not by generals, still less commanders in the field—over the first use of nuclear weapons. That is the most fundamental objective. Again, I am not speaking here of the sudden attack with H-bombs but of the much greater probability of a gradual conflict developing.
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Secondly, we say that control must not only be political but collective. It must not be taken by one Government alone. I know that it will be said that this means fifteen Governments conferring together. That is a matter which should be discussed. Frankly, I do not know that I would be so worried about having fifteen Governments keeping their fingers on the safety catch—not, as my hon. Friend said, on the trigger, but on the safety catch. But I do not believe in practice that that would be necessary. I believe that a two-tier system such as suggested by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper would be possible.
I do not know whether this proposal for the establishment of effective collective political control within the alliance will prevent the spread of nuclear weapons, but it will do something towards that end. It will at least give the other members of the alliance a veto. It will give them an opportunity for consultation, a chance of discussion, and the feeling that at least they are participating in this absolutely vital decision.
That alone justifies us in giving our broad support to this idea—so long as it is an effective one. I do not want a collective political control which, under the guise of bringing the Governments in, in fact leaves the ultimate decision to the generals. That must be watched carefully.
Finally, it is not good enough for the Government to say that they cannot put forward proposals about this because the matter is one for the United States Government. The United States is our ally. Even if it was a matter for the United States Congress, what on earth is wrong in our suggesting that it should change its legislation? I do not think that much change would be necessary here, so long as the custody of the weapons, rather than the control, remained with the Americans.
I have not hesitated to underline the dangers and weaknesses of N.A.T.O. at present. We who believe that the alliance is necessary in present circumstances have both the right and the duty to do this. We have seen no sign that the Government have made the slightest attempt to propose the remedies for the weaknesses that exist—yet those remedies are needed not only because the alliance

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itself may well be undermined without them, but because they are needed in the cause of peace as well.
Who will deny that less reliance on nuclear weapons, the raising of the so-called nuclear threshold to the highest possible level, stopping the spread of nuclear weapons within the alliance, and establishing effective political control, are all likely to contribute to the prevention of war, or at least to the localising of any conflict that might break out?
I believe that there is now a new opportunity. The Democratic administration yin the United States is likely to be broadly sympathetic, more sympathetic, I think, to these aims than its predecessor. And here may I say how much we on this side of the House and, I am sure, everybody—although the Government cannot make an official comment—welcome the appointment of Mr. Dean Rusk and Mr. Chester Bowles and Mr. Adlai Stevenson to their various posts.
The failure of the Government to subscribe to these aims—Whether it is because they disagree with them we do not know, for they never tell us, or whether they are boo complacent to bother—does no service either to the Western Alliance or to the cause of peace.
9.30 p.m.
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Edward Heath): As the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said, this has been an important and wide-ranging debate. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. M. Foot), who today made his first speech in the House after a temporary absence and to whom I, too, extend our sympathies, questioned whether we believed that N.A.T.O. should be debated at all. Let me immediately reassure him on that point. Of course we recognise that these great issues must be debated, above all, in the House of Commons.
It is right that that should be so, but I think that the hon. Member himself will admit that a debate at this time has both advantages and disadvantages. It is, by its nature, bound to be exploratory. It takes place three days before the Paris meeting, at which we know various new proposals are to be made about various aspects of N.A.T.O. weapons, of which
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we have had general knowledge but about which we are not able entirely to confide in the House.
It also takes place a month before the new American Administration takes over and the proposals are being made by an outgoing Administration. They are also proposals which raise matters of great technical difficulty and complexity, proposals which can be settled only jointly with our allies. Nevertheless, a debate at this time has the very great advantage that it may be a free and open exchange of views and ideas, which is what has been happening today, and it means that the Government are able to benefit from the suggestions that have been put forward.
As the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) said, it is right for us to look again at N.A.T.O. because of the change in the political situation which has taken place in the eleven years in which it has been in existence, as many hon. Members have recalled. We have heard several times today of what was the original purpose of N.A.T.O. Now the position in the West has become stabilised, although we are still faced with the problem of Berlin.
It is also right that we should not concentrate on N.A.T.O. to the exclusion of burning problems in other parts of the world. There is also, and this is the most important factor in all our discussions, the move which has taken place towards nuclear equilibrium between the East and West since the original conception of N.A.T.O.
As the Leader of the Opposition said, there have been the recent developments of the Moscow Conference. In a speech in the country, the right hon. Gentleman hoped that 1961 would now prove to be a year of détente after the dialectical victory of Mr. Khrushchev over the Chinese. We all hope that that will be so, but those who have studied these documents will agree that if there has been a victory of Moscow over Peking, nevertheless the general line is one of fierce competitive co-existence. [HON. MEMBERS: "What is wrong with that?"] We have to face up to that fact.
Then there have been great technical developments in weapons and an increasing defence burden on finance, and especially on our resources and research and development. It is for these reasons

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that the present review of N.A.T.O. is being carried out and its long-term planning examined. There will be made at the meeting this week a progress report on the development of N.A.T.O., its strategy, and its weapons.
I would like to reassure the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), who asked whether there was any need for crash action to be taken at this meeting, that that is not so. It is not intended that these matters which we have been debating today, should be settled at this forthcoming meeting in Paris.
There have been several strands running through the debate and I would like to isolate and examine them, as indeed the right hon. Gentleman has done. I think that it is essential to form a clear picture, to isolate and examine them and keep them separate. First, there is the purpose of N.A.T.O. and the support for that purpose. Secondly, there is the problem of the weapons for N.A.T.O. and their future development. Thirdly, there is the problem of the control of these weapons, and, in particular, the problem of the sharing of political control to which the right hon. Gentleman referred at the end of his speech. Fourthly, there has been the strand of the use of Holy Loch for Polaris and what is involved in that. Fifthly, there is a need for a constructive policy for disarmament.
Both the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. Member for Belper opened their speeches by referring to disarmament. I give it equal importance, but in the way in which I want to develop my speech I would like to say quite a lot about it towards the end.
First, N.A.T.O. and its purpose. The right hon. Gentleman rightly said that the United Nations has not so far been able to guarantee that individual security to countries which they require. The original purpose of N.A.T.O. was to prevent Europe being overrun, and in that it has succeeded in the last ten years. It has also led to a great deal of political consultation between the countries of the Atlantic Alliance.
What now should be the objectives of N.A.T.O.? I suggest that they should
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be these. To convince the Soviet Union and its allies that they cannot further their aims by force, or threat of force, in Europe, and that means that they cannot further their aims by threatening nuclear blackmail. The second object of N.A.T.O. should be to reduce to a minimum the risks of conflict between the Soviet Union and N.A.T.O. arising from any form of miscalculation. Those two objectives must govern the types of weapon, and the control of those weapons, which N.A.T.O. possesses.
If we are to achieve these N.A.T.O. objectives there must be political and economic stability, and solidarity of countries to prevent, as one hon. Gentleman reminded us, Soviet exploitation of weaknesses and differences. There must also be—and this is where we come to one of the nubs of the matters that we have been discussing today—a belief, in the Soviet countries and in the individual N.A.T.O. countries, in the forces with which they are equipped, being designed and controlled to counter the Soviet use of force at whatever level, whether it be the smallest probe or a full scale attack by using conventional weapons alone, or nuclear weapons as may be required.
Sir Lynn Ungoed-Thomas: To use nuclear weapons against conventional troops?
Mr. Heath: The hon. and learned Gentleman has not noted the statement of the Supreme Commander, that he believes that conventional forces should be available for him to use in the first instance. There must also be Soviet confidence that there will be no irresponsible attack by N.A.T.O. or by a N.A.T.O. country.
The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale made a considerable play in his speech that if one achieved these objectives, and had a balance of weapons in this way, it meant that disarmament was henceforward impossible. With that, I cannot agree. In fact, I believe that if we come to a balance in that respect—and we have had some indication of it already—we may be able to make greater progress with disarmament.
For these objectives of N.A.T.O. there has been support in the Motion today from the official Opposition and from the Liberal Party. In fact, the Government,

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the official Opposition and the Liberal Party have this in common: they want to make N.A.T.O. as efficient as possible. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale disagreed with the whole of this thesis, on two grounds, so it seemed to me. First, he said that in the world as it is at present, with these modern weapons, it becomes impossible for an assembly such as the House of Commons to debate the final stages of the use of these weapons. In the earlier stages, unless we are faced with a sudden and overwhelming attack—as the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said—there is an opportunity to examine the situation, and for consultation to go on in the N.A.T.O. Council.
But we finally get to the point—and this is quite imaginable—in which it would not be possible to have a debate unless we waited until the bombs fell. Every democratic assembly has to face the fact that to preserve its freedom and to defend its own interests it has to give up to an alliance some of its own, individual control over these matters. That is inescapable in the present position. The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale dealt with that point by withdrawing entirely and saying that, faced with this difficulty in relation to the powers of the assembly the only thing to do was to leave ourselves without arms of any kind.
Secondly, the hon. Member's thesis was based on the fact that if we were to do this we should be able to use greater influence in the cause of world peace. He cited the examples of other neutral countries. We have great admiration for some of the work that they have done, but the nuclear test conference at Geneva is a good example of the fact that we are able to use our influence by reason of our present position. That has been an outstanding fact throughout the conference, and I shall have more to say about that shortly.
The second thread of the debate has been concerned with N.A.T.O. weapons and their development. I was asked a number of questions about the orthodox troops for use in N.A.T.O., and about General Norstad's views on the subject. I have already mentioned his own quotation about the use of these troops. The M.C.70 targets have been accepted for practical purposes. It is true that in
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considering those targets of orthodox troops allowance is made for the nuclear tactical weapons with which they will be equipped. As for our own forces, I can answer the right hon. Gentleman's question by saying that our object must be to modernise our equipment and to make our forces more mobile and efficient.
I find that it is very often not understood in the House that N.A.T.O. troops already have tactical nuclear weapons of which the key is in American hands. Therefore, the problem is concerned not with these; it is concerned with whether the N.A.T.O. forces should have an addition of the type which has been discussed broadly today, namely, the Polaris submarine. As my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence made plain, if a proposal is made that the Polaris submarine should be added to S.A.C.E.U.R.'s force we should welcome it for the purposes for which S.A.C.E.U.R. has asked, and also because it shows a welcome demonstration by the United States of its continued interest in Europe.
That is the answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Chatham (Mr. Critchley). The realisation of fears in Europe lie very much at the back of General Norstad's mind in discussing proposals of this sort. They are also very much in the American mind. Sometimes we tend to look at this problem very much from our own point of view, and do not realise the genuine anxieties in Europe about whether the American presence is to continue or not.
We have said quite clearly that we believe that the N.A.T.O. Council should embark on a thorough examination of plans for missiles and all that that involves. The claim of SACEUR is that missiles should take over some of the deterrent functions of manned aircraft. We agree absolutely with the Leader of the Opposition that manned aircraft have this asset, that they can be used also for high explosive, as well as nuclear, weapons. This is in reply to the request of SACEUR for what is really a modernisation programme. It is not, as the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale said, piling nuclear weapon on top of nuclear weapon.
Mr. John Strachey: It is important to get this clear. Is the right hon. Gentleman telling us that

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Polaris submarines are merely a modernisation of N.A.T.O. tactical nuclear weapons? That seems to me to be absurd.
Mr. Heath: It is the statement of SACEUR, made in the early part of the hon. Member's speech. We believe that it is possible—but I am going on in a moment to discuss the question of the tactical and the strategic—for the Polaris submarine to be used instead of part of the manned aircraft element.
On the question whether it is tactical or strategic, that must depend not on the particular nature of the weapon, but on the use and purpose of the weapon, and the Supreme Commander has always made plain that he has no part in the strategic rôle, and that he is thinking only in terms of the tactical.
Mr. G. Brown: I did ask, earlier, how it was realistically thought that one could fling a half megaton warhead 1,200 miles into the heart of metropolitan Russia, and sometimes call it tactical and sometimes call it strategic. How does the Minister think that we can say that it is other than strategic bombing all the time?
Mr. Heath: It depends entirely on the target at which one aims. The Supreme Commander is under the limitations placed upon him for political reasons, and it obviously depends on the use for which he wants the weapons.
Mr. Gaitskell: If the Polaris is a tactical weapon, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what is a strategic weapon?
Mr. Heath: If the right hon. Gentleman cannot disentangle the difference between the use of these weapons, I cannot help him.
We now come to the question of control. The right hon. Gentleman has not accepted the very clear statement of the Supreme Commander that he is responsible to the N.A.T.O. Council, and that there is full political responsibility there. His right hon. Friend made various suggestions about how this political responsibility could be exercised, but I must confess that none of these seems to be an improvement on the present system. They can be examined.
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As has already been pointed out, how is it an improvement to have a Minister sitting there instead of an ambassador if, all the time, he has to refer back? The Council is accustomed to full consultation. There is also the question of control by the Supreme Commander over the lower military commanders, and this is of equal importance. SACEUR has pointed out that he keeps tightly in his own hands the centralised control of junior commanders. What emerges is the need for credibility to be maintained in the use of the deterrent, as the right hon. Gentleman himself said. As regards future control, the change of weapons which is proposed does not involve any change in control. New technical means may have to be worked out to deal with these particular weapons, but no change in principle is involved.
The right hon. Gentleman seemed to brush aside very lightly the question of a change in American law if there were to be any change in the actual nature of the political control.
Mr. Gaitskell: Since the right hon. Gentleman has quoted again what General Norstad said not this year, but on an earlier occasion, and he says that that is the position, that he is under the N.A.T.O. Council, will he explain what new change he is talking about?
Mr. Heath: I was discussing the new change which, I understood, the right hon. Gentleman put forward. He said that a change might be necessary in American law; he thought it would be a minor one, and it could be lightly brushed aside. I should have thought that anybody with experience of the last fifteen years would realise the difficulties in that.
We believe that the sort of problem which my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) discussed this afternoon, relating to a dividing line for command and control of strategic and tactical weapons between the Soviet and N.A.T.O. armies, is one of the things which ought to be studied in the review.
I cannot add to what has been said already, very clearly, about the use of Polaris in Holy Loch. We have a complete difference between us on this matter.
Mr. G. Brown: We are not going to use it in Holy Loch.
Mr. Heath: I mean the staging of Polaris in Holy Loch. We believe, since we are working together with allies, that we should work in the closest consultation with them. That position is not accepted by right hon. and hon. Members opposite. We believe that ours is an approach which gives us the best method of working together in this enterprise.
I come now to the fifth strand, disarmament. I believe that we are approaching a moment when a new initiative can be taken. So far, we have been bogged down by the fact that the Soviet Government were unwilling to make progress while the new American Administration was waiting to come into power. We have always worked hard in the nuclear tests conference to reach a solution of these problems, and I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that everything possible should be done to avoid a breakdown. We hope that we may be able to reach firm conclusions at that conference.
It has been suggested that we should move towards disengagement. The Government have always rejected disengagement in its literal meaning because of the political vacuum which would then ensue. On the other hand, we have always said that we were prepared, of course, to examine with our allies the concept of areas of control of armaments because we believe that progress can be made in that matter, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said this afternoon. The plans in relation to surprise attack were put forward in 1957 and they still stand. We are prepared to support them. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman is out of touch with his right hon. Friend who has explained why an initiative cannot be taken at the moment and why we have a better chance of achieving progress in the new year.
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister put forward one very clear suggestion of how progress could be made in his speech to the Assembly of the United Nations, namely, that the experts should work out ways in which control
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of disarmament and inspection could take place. I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman himself would acknowledge that as a very valuable initiative, if it had been followed up by the Soviet Government; but they were not prepared to do so, and one can only hope that in the new year they will advance in that direction.
To sum up, the objectives of N.A.T.O. can be achieved by a continuous process of keeping the N.A.T.O. armoury modernised with a balanced pattern of defensive weapons to counter aggression at any level. This requires improved mobility and quality in conventional forces. It does not mean an excessive concentration of nuclear weapons and the present review which is taking place will help in keeping this balance for which the right hon. Gentleman has been asking.
We believe that N.A.T.O. can achieve its objectives if the United States reassures its allies in the way which has been discussed in the House today. It will show that they are prepared to support their allies against not only physical threats, but threats of nuclear blackmail. There must be adequate control arrangements both politically and militarily, but the real problem with which we have to deal is the very difficult one of striking the right balance between the multinational controls which can reduce the efficiency of the deterrent and the European fears either that they will have no call on nuclear forces for their own defence, or that the United States N.A.T.O. forces might be used without consultation. It is the balance between having the deterrent and these other forces and the dangers which the Europeans see in the situation of the present control, which has to be struck.
As Her Majesty's Government support N.A.T.O. but reject the criticisms which have been made by the right hon. Member and his hon. Friends, and because they believe that they are working towards a proper balance of nuclear strategy in Europe, I urge the House to reject the Opposition's Motion of censure.
Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 163, Noes 318.

Division No. 22.]

AYES

[9.58 p.m.

Ainsley, William

Healey, Denis

Oliver, G. H.

Albu, Austen

Henderson, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Rwly Regis)

Paget, R. T.

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Herbison, Miss Margaret

Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

Bacon, Miss Alice

Hewitson, Capt. M.

Pargiter, G. A.

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Hill, J. (Midlothian)

Parker, John (Dagenham)

Bence, Cyril (Dunbartonshire, E.)

Hilton, A. V.

Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

Benson, Sir George

Holman, Percy

Peart, Frederick

Blackburn, F.

Houghton, Douglas

Pentland, Norman

Blyton, William

Howell, Charles A.

Popplewell, Ernest

Bowden, Herbert W. (Leics, S. W.)

Hoy, James H.

Prentice, R. E.

Boyden, James

Hughes, Ciedwyn (Anglesey)

Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Proctor, W. T.

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Hunter, A. E.

Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

Hynd, John (Attercliffe)

Randall, Harry

Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Beiper)

Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

Redhead, E. C.

Brown, Thomas (Ince)

Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

Reynolds, G. W.

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

Janner, Barnett

Rhodes, H.

Callaghan, James

Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Chetwynd, George

Jegar, George

Robinson, Kenneth (St. Panoras, N.)

Cliffe, Michael

Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

Ross, William

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

Short, Edward

Cronin, John

Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

Skeffington, Arthur

Cullen, Mrs. Alice

Jones, Rt. Hn. A. Creech (Wakefield)

Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

Darling, George

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Small, William

Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

Sorensen, R. W.

Davies, Ifor (Gower)

Kenyon, Clifford

Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

Deer, George

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Steele, Thomas

de Freitas, Geoffrey

King, Dr. Horace

Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

Dempsey, James

Lawson, George

Stones, William

Diamond, John

Lee, Frederick (Newton)

Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

Dodds, Norman

Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)

Donnelly, Desmond

Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

Stross, Dr. Barnett (Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

Dugdaie, Rt. Hon. John

Loughlin, Charles

Symonds, J. B.

Ede, Rt. Hon. Chuter

Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

McCann, John

Thomson, G. M. (Dundee, E.)

Evans, Albert

MacColl, James

Thornton, Ernest

Finch, Harold

McInnes, James

Timmons, John

Fitch, Alan

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

Fletcher, Eric

McLeavy, Frank

Wainwright, Edwin

Foot, Dingle (Ipswich)

MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

Wells, Percy (Faversham)

Forman, J. C.

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

Mapp, Charles

White, Mrs. Eirene

Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. Hugh

Marsh, Richard

Whitlock, William

George, Lady Megan Lloyd

Mason, Roy

Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

Ginsburg, David

Mayhew, Christopher

Wilkins, W. A.

Gooch, E. G.

Mellish, R. J.

Willey, Frederick

Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

Millan, Bruce

Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

Gourlay, Harry

Mitohison, G. R.

Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

Grey, Charles

Moody, A. S.

Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

Morris, John

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

Mort, D. L.

Wyatt, Woodrow

Gunter, Ray

Moyle, Arthur

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

Mulley, Frederick

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Hamilton, William (West Fife)

Neal, Harold

Mr. J. Taylor and

Hannan, William

Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

Mr. G. H. R. Rogers.

Hayman, F. H.

Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip (Derby, S.)

NOES

Agnew, Sir Peter

Bishop, F. P.

Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

Aitken, W. T.

Black, Sir Cyril

Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

Bossom, Clive

Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portamth, W.)

Allason, James

Bourne-Arton, A.

Cleaver, Leonard

Alport, Rt. Hon. C. J. M.

Box, Donald

Cole, Norman

Amery, Rt. Hon. Julian (Preston, N.)

Boyle, Sir Edward

Collard, Richard

Arbuthnot, John

Braine, Bernard

Cooke, Robert

Ashton, Sir Hubert

Brewls, John

Cooper, A. E.

Atkins, Humphrey

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

Balniel, Lord

Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

Cordle, John

Barber, Anthony

Brooman-White, R.

Corfield, F. V.

Barlow, Sir John

Browne, Percy (Torrington)

Costain, A. P.

Barter, John

Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

Coulson, J. M.

Batsford, Brian

Burden, F. A.

Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

Butcher, Sir Herbert

Craddock, Sir Beresford

Beamish, Col. Tufton

Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

Critchley, Julian

Bell, Ronald (S. Bucks.)

Campbell, Sir David (Belfast, S.)

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos & Fhm)

Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

Crowder, F. P.

Berkeley, Humphry

Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

Cunningham, Knox

Bevins, Rt. Hon. Reginald (Toxteth)

Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

Curran, Charles

Bidgood, John C.

Cary, Sir Robert

Currie, G. B. H.

Biggs-Davison, John

Channon, H. P. G.

Dalkeith, Earl of

Bingham, R. M.

Chataway, Christopher

Dance, James

Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

Chichester Clark, R.

d'Avigdor-Goldsmld, Sir Henry

352

353

Deedes, w. F.

Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho

de Ferrantl, Basil

Jones, Rt. Hn. Aubrey (Hall Green)

Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Joseph, Sir Keith

Proudfoot, Wilfred

Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Quennell, Miss J. M.

Doughty, Charles

Kerby, Capt. Henry

Ramsden, James

du Cann, Edward

Kerr, Sir Hamilton

Rawlinson, Peter

Duncan, Sir James

Kershaw, Anthony

Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

Duthie, Sir William

Kimball, Marcus

Rees, Hugh

Eden, John

Kitson, Timothy

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

Lagden, Godfrey

Renton, David

Elliott, R. W. (Newcastle-on-Tyne, N.)

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

Emery, Peter

Langford-Holt, J.

Ridsdale, Julian

Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

Leather, E. H. C.

Rlppon, Geoffrey

Errington, Sir Eric

Leavey, J. A.

Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

Erroll, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Leburn, Gilmour

Robson Brown, Sir William

Farey-Jones, F. W.

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

Farr, John

Lilley, F. J. P.

Roots, William

Finlay, Graeme

Linstead, Sir Hugh

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Fisher, Nigel

Litchfield, Capt. John

Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

Longden, Gilbert

Russell, Ronald

Foster, John

Loveys, Walter H.

Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan

Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

Scott-Hopkins, James

Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

Seymour, Leslie

Gammans, Lady

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Sharples, Richard

Gardner, Edward

McAdden, Stephen

Shaw, M.

George, J. C. (Pollok)

MacArthur, Ian

Simon, Sir Jocelyn

Gibson-Watt, David

McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

Skeet, T. H. H.

Glover, Sir Douglas

Maolay, Rt. Hon. John

Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Bute & N. Ayrs.)

Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

Glyn, Sir Richard (Dorset, N.)

McLean, Neil (Inverness)

Spearman, Sir Alexander

Godber, J. B.

Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

Speir, Rupert

Goodhart, Philip

MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

Stanley, Hon. Richard

Goodhew, victor

McMaster, Stanley R.

Stevens, Geoffrey

Gough, Frederick

Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

Stodart, J. A.

Gower, Raymond

Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

Storey, Sir Samuel

Grant, Rt. Hon. William (Woodside)

Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

Studholme, Sir Henry

Green, Alan

Maddan, Martin

Summers, Sir Spenoer (Aylesbury)

Gresham Cooke, R.

Maginnls, John E

Sumner, Donald (Orpington)

Grimston, Sir Robert

Maitland, Sir John

Talbot, John E.

Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

Tapsell, Peter

Gurden, Harold

Markham, Major Sir Frank

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Hall, John (Wycombe)

Marlowe, Anthony

Taylor, Edwin (Bolton, E.)

Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest

Taylor, W. J. (Bradford, N.)

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

Marshall, Douglas

Teeling, William

Harris, Reader (Heston)

Marten, Neil

Temple, John M.

Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

Mathew, Robert (Honiton)

Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Maccleaf'd)

Mawby, Ray

Thomas, Peter (Conway)

Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

Harvie Anderson, Miss

Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.)

Hastings, Stephen

Mills, Stratton

Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

Hay, John

Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

Tiley, Arthur (Bradford, W.)

Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

Montgomery, Fergus

Tilney, John (Wavertree)

Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

More, Jasper (Ludlow)

Turner, Colin

Henderson, John (Cathcart)

Morgan, William

Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

Henderson-Stewart, Sir James

Morrison, John

van straubenzee, W. R.

Hendry, Forbes

Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

Vaughan-Morgan, Sir John

Hicks Beach, Maj. W.

Nabarro, Gerald

Vickers, Miss Joan

Hiley, Joseph

Neave, Alrey

Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

Noble, Michael

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir Derek

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Nugent, Sir Richard

Wall, Patrick

Hirst, Geoffrey

Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

Hobson, John

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

Holland, Philip

Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

Watts, James

Hollingworth, John

Osborn, John (Hallam)

Webster, David

Hopkins, Alan

Osborne, Cyril (Louth)

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Hornby, R. P.

Page, John (Harrow, West)

Whitelaw, William

Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Patricia

Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

Partridge, E.

Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. Ives)

Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

Peel, John

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

Percival, Ian

Wise, A. R.

Hughes-Young, Michael

Peyton, John

Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

Hulbert, Sir Norman

Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard

Hurd, Sir Anthony

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Woodhouse, C. M.

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Pitman, I. J.

Woodnutt, Mark

Iremonger, T. L.

Pitt, Miss Edith

Woollam, John

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Pott, Percivall

Worsley, Marcus

Jackson, John

Powell, Rt. Hon. J. Enoch

Yates, William (The Wrekin)

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

Price, H. A. (Lewisham, W.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Prior, J. M. L.

Mr. E. Wakefield and Mr. Bryan.

BUILDING SOCIETIES (AUTHORISED INVESTMENTS)
10.10 p.m.
Mr. G. R. Mitchison: I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Building Societies (Authorised Investments) Order, 1960 (S.I. 1960, No. 2091), dated 15th November, 1960, a copy of which was laid before this House on 18th November, be annulled.
The investments of building societies are always a fascinating subject. This Order was made under Section 11 of the Building Societies Act, which provided that the way in which a building society might invest any part of its funds which were not immediately required for its purposes should be such as might be prescribed by Order. This is the Order which does so prescribe. To summarise, what the Order does is this: first, it provides a class of investment in which any amount of the building societies reserves may be invested.
Mr. Speaker: It is so difficult to hear whether the hon. and learned Gentleman is in order. I should be obliged if hon. Members could manage their conversations a little more quietly.
Mr. Mitchison: I respectfully hope I am in order so far.
The Order first provides a class of securities in which any amount of the funds of a building society may be invested and, to put it very shortly, those are really short-term gilt edged securities. So far as the marketable ones are concerned, they have to be such as are repayable within five years. I think that no one could take exception to that provision.
The Order next provides that if 7½ per cent. of the assets of the building society are already in those securities a further purchase may be made of securities which are due for repayment—I am taking the marketable securities for the moment—in more than five years but in not more than fifteen years. Thirdly, the Order provides that, if not less than 15 per cent. of the assets of the building society are in those classes of securities, then a further investment may be made in a third class of securities which are, as regards the marketable
356
securities, those which are due for repayment in more than fifteen years but in not more than twenty-five years.
I have taken only the one type of securities as an instance, and I think that hon. Gentlemen will agree that, though the provisions are different, the same sort of principle applies to the other types of securities in each part. One must consider what the object of this investment is bound to be. These are funds which are not immediately required for the purposes of a building society. Therefore, if there is over-investment in securities, the money is not being used to that extent for the proper purposes of the society.
On the other hand, I agree at once that, apart from whatever balance there may be in the bank, which is dealt with in another part of the Act, there must be something in the nature of what are commonly called liquid reserves. Those liquid reserves serve two purposes. First, looking at the matter from the point of view of the building society, it will obviously require what might be called, perhaps rather loosely, floating capital—that is to say, money which it has not for the time being been able to apply to its main purposes. Secondly, looking at the matter from the paint of view of the person who is putting money into building societies, he must be sure that he can get out his deposit or share investment with promptitude on demand.
Although I have said "with promptitude on demand", building societies are entitled to a period of repayment, certainly in the case of shares, and I think also in the case of deposits, of a month OT more, but the larger building societies nowadays make a point of saying to investors that they repay on demand or within a very short period. That is quite right and proper, and building societies should be put in a position to be able to implement that promise.
The practice appears to be, judging from what was said in Committee by hon. Members with more experience of building societies than I can claim to have—I see two of them sitting opposite—to have 7½ per cent. obligatory in liquid assets and another 7½ per cent. as a matter of sound practice. Therefore, in practice the investments go up to 15 per cent.

357
If that is the practice, I fail to see the need for the third category of investments which are authorised by the Order. These are investments which come in only if there is already 15 per cent. in the other two categories. They are investments of a length of repayment which seems to be too long for the purpose of investing funds not immediately required for the purposes of the society. They include fixed-interest securities for repayment between fifteen and twenty-five years from the material date, and there are other provisions with regard to the loans of local authorities, to which I think there is perhaps less objection. I do not see the need for the third category.
Once there are investments which are not repayable within fifteen years and which may run up to twenty-five years, the type of difficulty is invited which some building societies have met in the past. We must be quite clear what the difficulty is.
For example, the Scottish Amicable was absorbed finally by the Co-operative Wholesale. Its obligations were met. I doubt very much if that society was insolvent. It was a question of time. What happened was that some newspaper started the tale that the Scottish Amicable had not enough reserves. The result was a run on the society, and it could not meet it immediately. It had to be helped over it. That is the sort of thing which at all costs we want to avoid. When I say "at all costs", I mean by any reasonable measure. Investment in securities as long as this means one of two things. Either the funds of the building society are not being applied to its main purpose, or, if they are, the reserves will not be callable and adequate for the object in mind.
Why have any comparatively long-dated securities at all? I look at the first two parts of the Schedule, which make provision between them for investment to an unlimited amount in the first case and, in the second case, to investment if there is already 7½ per cent. in the first place, and say, "Those are the ones which matter" What they are foreseeing is investment on the present lines up to 15 per cent. I should have thought that that was probably enough, but I wonder whether the second category ones are suitable. These are five- to
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fifteen-year investments which may come on after having 7½ per cent. in the first category.
Although they are not open to as strong objection as the securities in Part III, I should have thought that it was inadvisable to allow investment in securities of as long a character as that, mainly from the point of view of the depositor or shareholder, but also from the point of view of the building society. Building societies have a knowledge and skill in making advances on bricks and mortar and on what necessarily flows from that. They are not investment trusts, and the people who manage them do not set out to be anything of the sort. Obviously, in view of the legislation about building societies and their functions, they ought not to start as anything like that.
I therefore discount the suggestion that building societies ought to have investments the dates of repayment for which were spread over a fairly long period. That seems to me to be the function of something like a pension fund and, to some extent, of other bodies which have investment in securities as their main business. That is not the main business of building societies.
I turn to the position of the joint stock banks. I remind the House again that the larger building societies, at any rate, make it a practice, which I suggest should be encouraged, of repaying share capital and deposit loans practically on demand. They are, therefore, not quite in the position of a joint stock bank, but they are far nearer to it than they would be if, in practice, they relied on the one month's notice provision or, in some cases, a longer period in their own rules. I need hardly remind the Economic Secretary that for liquid assets—and it is only the first category in this Schedule which could be treated as liquid assets—the banks require 30 per cent. of their deposits. They require 7½ or 8 per cent., if not more, in the form of cash, which includes bankers' deposits in the Bank of England and notes and money in their own tills. That is a very stiff provision for liquidity which has been found necessary in the case of joint stock banks. They all do it.
I would not say that building societies are by any means in the same position. But if we are to confine their obligatory liquid assets in this rather narrow sense

359
to 7½ per cent., after which they may wander into longer-dated securities, the contrast between 7½ per cent. in their case and 30 per cent. in the case of the joint stock banks is rather shocking. It strikes me as being too large.
I do not want anything I say here tonight to be taken as an imputation of insolvency against the larger building societies. That is the last thing I need to suggest. One has only to look at their balance sheets, to see that. This, however, is not a case of insolvency. It is a case where there may be a rather silly rush by depositors or shareholders, as there was in the case I mentioned. It is always a possibility. It always was a possibility in the case of the banks until we got to the stage of the few very large banks that we now have. In the remoter past, it was more than a possibility.
I should like, therefore, to hear from the Economic Secretary his justification for including Part III of the Schedule, the reasons why he thinks that Part II of the Schedule serves a purpose and his answer to my suggestion that in the circumstances of building societies, it would be better to confine the investments of funds which they do not immediately require to really liquid assess in the sense in which those words are used in relation to the 30 per cent. required of the joint stock banks.
10.27 p.m.
Sir Cyril Black: I rise to make a brief intervention in this discussion. I want, first, to express a personal view on the merits of the Order and then, more particularly, to address to my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary two questions on which it would be helpful if he could give the House some information, so that we may have on the record two points to which building society people will attach importance.
Speaking personally, I welcome the terms of the Order. It seems to me that the balance between the various kinds of dated securities is probably as right as can be judged at the moment. I think I am right in saying—I speak from recollection—that the troubles in which the Scottish Amicable Building Society found itself involved arose not by reason of the fact that that society
360
held Government securities with dates of redemption more than fifteen years ahead, but because it held a large portfolio of undated Government securities which had been purchased at a comparatively high price in a period of low interest rates and which depreciated to the extent of, perhaps, 40 or 50 per cent. when interest rates became much higher. I think that it was that circumstance that got the society into difficulty.
Mr. Mitchison: I agree with the hon. Member. That, too, is my recollection, and the hon. Member knows that there have been other cases.
Sir C. Black: Whether or not that society was insolvent may well be a matter of doubt and opinion, but it was undoubtedly frozen to such an extent that it could not meet the heavy and abnormal demands for repayments which it received from its shareholders and deposit holders. Hence, it found it necessary to amalgamate with a larger and stronger society. I do not, however, think that it was long-dated securities that caused the trouble in that case. It was the ownership of undated securities.
I am in favour of the investment proposals embodied in Parts I, II and III of the Schedule, because they seem to me to provide what I would describe as a well-balanced investment portfolio. I recollect that I said something about the principles of this in Committee on the Bill and I do not think that the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) agreed with me then.
I believe, however, that it is generally accepted that a well-balanced investment portfolio of Government securities consists of stocks falling in over quite a period of time at different dates so that the problem of the reinvestment of the whole of the money does not arise within a comparatively short time but can be undertaken in an orderly sequence over a considerable number of years. It seems to me, therefore, that the balance of this Order is probably as good a balance as can be achieved with the experience which we have at the moment.
I think that there is a second reason for giving the right to building societies to invest in the longer dated securities, and it is this, that in normal market

361
conditions in the gilt edged market one can get a larger return on one's money with the longer dated stocks than is the case with the shorter dated stocks, and if we confine the building societies to the shorter dated stocks on which the yield is smaller we remove from them some of the encouragement which they would otherwise have to invest in Government securities, because the rate of interest is, frankly, not enough to attract them. Inasmuch as it is a good thing as a general principle to encourage building societies to err on the safe side in considering their liquid resources, I think it would be a pity to discourage them from investing an adequate amount of their money in Government securities by confining them entirely to securities on which the yield would be lowest. Therefore, I think that there is a good reason for the scheme of investment which is embodied in the terms of this Order.
I now come to the two points I want to put to my hon. Friend. I think I can do so in just a moment or two. The first is this. This is an Order which is made under the Building Societies Act, 1960, and I would assume that the investment scheme which is embodied in this Order will be reviewed from time to time by the Chief Registrar and by the Treasury and possibly in consultation with building societies. We are, I think, undoubtedly in what one may call to some extent an experimental period following upon the new Act. It is quite clear that experience of value will be gained in the next few years as the Act comes into operation, and I should like to think that this scheme of investment is not something which is necessarily fixed for all time, but that it embodies the best thoughts of the Registrar and of the Treasury at this moment. I think it would be helpful if we could be told that the position will be reviewed from time to time as further experience is gained.
The second point I should like to put to my hon. Friend is this. Let me take an investment made under Part II of the Schedule. Let us assume that a building society buys a stock which has six years' life which it could not, of course, buy under Part I of the Schedule but it would be permitted to buy under Part II. When that stock has been held for a year and the repayment date has then fallen to
362
within the five-year period, can that investment be transferred out of investments held under Part II of the Schedule and form part of the investments held under Part I of the Schedule? To take another example. In the case of a stock with a life of sixteen years purchased under Part III of the Schedule, when that has been held for a year, and the date of repayment is then in the fifteen-year limit, can that stock be transferred into stocks held under Part II?
I rather imagine that the answer to this question is in the affirmative, but speaking as a layman I am not entirely clear that this is so under the Order. It seems to me to be good common sense that it should be so, but, of course, the legal position does not always correspond with good common sense, and it would be helpful, I think, if we could get a clear answer to that question.
10.30 p.m.
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Anthony Barber): It would probably be most convenient if I were to deal first with the two questions which my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Sir C. Black) has just put to me. This is, as he realises, the first Order to be made under Section 11 of the Building Societies Act. 1960, and I can certainly give him the assurance for which he asked that from time to time the provisions of the Order will be reviewed. Indeed, I was going to say in any event, even if he had not asked me, that this was the intention of the Chief Registrar and of the Treasury.
Certainly the Order does not contain provisions which are fixed for all time. Indeed I think that the whole House will agree that one of the great advantages of setting out the rules governing investment by building societies in a Statutory Instrument as opposed to their being included in the Act itself is that we will be able from time to time to amend them as necessary.
The second question my hon. Friend asked was about the purchase by a building society of stock with a six-year maturity which would at the time of purchase fall within Part II of the Schedule, but whose redemption date would after a year or so be less than five years away. He asked what the position would then be. The stock would then fall within Part I of the Schedule and would count

363
towards the 7½ per cent. This, if the 7½ per cent. rule were fulfilled, would then enable further investment to be made under Part II of the Schedule. The same principle would apply to an investment in stock with a sixteen-year maturity under Part III of the Schedule, which, after a year or two, would come within Part II.
In order that I may deal adequately with the points raised by the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison), it would probably be helpful if I spoke briefly about the background to the Order. As I have said, this is the first Order of its kind. It is made under Section 11 of the 1960 Act which gives the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies the power to prescribe the ways in which a building society may invest those of its funds which are not immediately required for its purposes, and it makes it an offence for a building society to invest its surplus funds in any manner not so authorised.
The main purpose of Section 11 is to prevent building societies from evading restrictions imposed by Section 1 of the Act on the types of advances that they may make. I see around me hon. Members who sat through part of the proceedings when we considered the Bill, and I do not think that I need trouble the House with an explanation the content of Section 1. There is a second purpose in Section 11 of the 1960 Act, which is to avoid repetition of the difficulties in which some societies have found themselves in recent years because of unwise investment. Societies at present have powers of investment almost identical with the powers of investment of trustees and there is no limit on the length of maturity of the stock in which they can invest.
Some societies, as the hon. and learned Member for Kettering pointed out, have invested in undated or very long-dated stock and then found that they could be realised only at a substantial loss. The hon. and learned Member will know that it has always been the Government's intention, since the 1960 Act was first published as a Bill, that the Orders made should restrict the maturity range of a society's investments. If I may repeat a phrase which became somewhat hack-
364
neyed during the passage of the Bill, a building society carries on its business by borrowing "short" and lending "long". The relevance of that truth to this Order is that a society must keep some portion of its funds in a liquid form, so that it can be readily available if there is an unexpected demand for withdrawals of shares and deposits.
That is the primary purpose for which a society holds investments. But there is also a separate reason which may lead a building society to invest some of its funds. Listening to the hon. and learned Gentleman—I say this with great respect—I felt that he had not fully appreciated the second reason, or at any rate that he did not give it enough weight. It may sometimes happen that the inflow of funds from investors may exceed the demand for mortgages. That, of course, is not true at the present time, but it happened, I am told, at times between the wars, and it happened also immediately after the last war, and, of course, it is a possibility as far as the future is concerned.
In such circumstances, when the inflow of funds exceeds the demands for mortgages, it may be perfectly proper for a building society to hold a slightly higher proportion of its assets in the form of investments rather than to turn away all new funds offered to it. But it could afford to do this only if it could get a reasonable return from its investments, and this may be possible only by investing in something longer than short-dated stocks.
Mr. Mitchison: I would admit at once that no one on these benches can compete with the Government's knowledge of "hot" money at present—they are experts on it—but surely the hotter it is on arrival the more likely it is to be withdrawn in considerable quantities—or do not the Government agree?—at short notice.
Mr. Barber: The point is that obviously it is a matter of judgment as to what proportion of the assets of a building society should be held in the form of "shorts" or short-medium stocks. When one has a sufficient surplus or a sufficient proportion of liquid assets, I would then have thought it reasonable, if funds are flowing into the society, for it to hold these funds in stocks which are rather longer than short-dated stocks

365
and indeed in stocks of longer than fifteen-years' maturity. This distinction between the two purposes for which a society may wish to invest its funds is reflected in the structure of the Order.
The hon. and learned Gentleman explained very clearly the details of the Order, so I need not go over that ground again. But it provides, of course, that a building society may, in general, invest without restriction in marketable fixed-interest gilt-edged or local authority securities which will mature in less than five years, that is, in what are generally known as "shorts." Then it deals with the position concerning the five to fifteen years medium-dated stocks, and, finally, with the fifteen to twenty-five years fixed-interest securities.
The hon. and learned Gentleman deliberately. I think, did not deal with the question of local authority loans, so unless he particularly wishes me to do so I will not touch on those.
Mr. Mitchison: I should have had to call attention to the fact that all the funds could be lent to a parish council.
Mr. Barber: If the hon. and learned Gentleman would like me to deal with local authorities I will do so.
Mr. Mitchison indicated dissent.
Mr. Barber: I think that the main burden of the hon. and learned Gentleman's argument was that he thought it wrong that a building society should be allowed to invest in securities with a period of maturity of as long as twenty-five years. But even if a society were holding investments only to form a liquid reserve—and as I have already explained, this is not necessarily the sole motive—there would to my mind still be a good case for allowing it to hold part of its funds in something longer than "shorts," that is in stocks with redemption dates longer than five years.
I agree, of course, that the first-line reserve should be held in cash, Treasury Bills, mortgages and short-dated securities, all within the five-year period. But, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon pointed out, one can earn more in the longer dated stocks. I think it would be justifiable, without running any undue risks, for part of the reserve—always assuming that it is adequate in size—to be in-
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vested in something longer than "shorts" so that the society need not unduly jeopardise its earning power in order to maintain the necessary liquidity. After all, this concept of what one might call "first-line" and "second-line" reserves is not peculiar to building societies. It is to be found in many institutions, and it seems to me to be a perfectly sensible and proper concept.
It is not irrelevant to consider what is the present practice. I am told that many reputable building societies have a considerable proportion of their investments in the six to fifteen year maturity range. It may be true that some societies have a higher proportion in that range than one would like to see. The effect of this Order will probably be to reduce the proportion for most societies because they will not be able to make any further investments in that maturity range, until they have built up their "shorts" to 7½ per cent. of total assets.
It is worth bearing in mind that in practice this will mean first-line liquid funds of about 10 per cent., because cash and money in the bank will not count towards the 7½ per cent. calculation and is usually, I am told, not much short of 2½ per cent. of the assets.
The hon. and learned Gentleman asked what was the purpose of giving building societies this power in certain circumstances to invest in stocks with fifteen to twenty-five years maturity. It is intended, as I explained earlier, to be used in circumstances where a society has to leave a greater proportion of its assets in the form of investments than is necessary to meet the requirements for normal liquidity purposes.
In these circumstances, societies will want to invest in a reasonable spread of maturity, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon pointed out, and I think it reasonable to say this should include securities within the fifteen to twenty-five years maturity range. This is not likely to happen at present when the demand for mortgages is heavy, nor in the very near future, but it is for the building societies to decide, as the hon. and learned Gentleman said.
Those who look after the affairs of the societies are people with special skill and knowledge, and it is worth while looking at the present position.

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Very few societies have at present more than 15 per cent. of their assets in the form of investments. If one consults the Chief Registrar's Report for 1959, one finds that, at the end of that year, of the forty-six societies with assets of over £10 millions, only six held investments representing significantly more than 15 per cent. of their assets.
Even of these six, it is unlikely that more than one or two will satisfy the criteria set out in Article 3 (b), which authorises them to invest in Part III securities, but in principle we see no objection to this new provision, and we thought it right to include it in the Order.
Finally, I realise that the question raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman is, in the end, one of judgment. No one disputes that the investment powers of building societies must be limited. The question—in the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon—is whether this Order gets the balance right, bearing in mind, on the one hand, the need to protect building society members, and on the other hand the desirability of not curbing unduly the activities of these societies.
This Order amply protects members against undue risks to their savings, but naturally the Chief Registrar and we at the Treasury will keep an eye on developments. If it becomes necessary, a new Order can be made at any time. I realise that the contents of this Order involve matters of judgment and degree, and, as always in such matters, there is room for differences of opinion.
I may not have completely convinced the hon. and learned Gentleman on the merits of the proposal, but I think that I have said enough to convince him that a great deal of thought and consultation lies behind the Order, and I hope that hon. Members will take the view that at any rate it deals with the problem in a fair and sensible way. I commend it to the House.
Mr. Mitchison: After, rather than as a result of, what has been said, I hesitate to divide the House. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

TRADE WITH CHINA
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Finlay.]
10.51 p.m.
Mrs. Barbara Castle: The question I want to raise is one which is of quite serious importance to this country's export trade and which has arisen out of the crisis in our car industry, associated with the recent acquisition of the total holding by an American company of Fords, of Dagenham. But the question goes wider than that: it is the question of how far the increasing penetration by the United States into British industry will import into this country the restriction on exports which arises out of purely American policy.
I am raising this matter because I think the consequences of the present situation could be quite serious to us. I think the President of the Board of Trade will be the first to agree that we are not in a position at present to be complacent about our export trade. There has been a steady fall in our exports in the first three-quarters of this year, and the alarming fact is that since 1955 this country's share of world trade has been shrinking and that it has fallen from 19·7 per cent. in 1955 to 16·8 per cent. in the first half of this year. That means we are not in a position to sit back complacently while any of our industries are denied access to export markets of any kind anywhere.
Yet as a result of American policy in relation to exports to China, and the steps which the American Government are taking to impose that policy on American owned or controlled firms in this country, we have a situation in which an artificial and unnecessary barrier is being placed between British firms and a new and expanding export market. It is rather ironical that at the very moment when the Government are making sermons to manufacturers about the need to expand the export trade, the Government should be refusing to do anything to remove this barrier.
What is the exact position about this American intervention? I will quote here from one of the documents of their

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Department of Commerce, "Highlights of U.S. Export Controls":
"There is a total embargo on commercial shipments to Communist China and North Korea."
And this embargo applies not only to companies in the United States, but to exports from any United States controlled business here.
The Minister has admitted it and the United States Embassy confirms it, because the position is that any
"person subject to the jurisdiction of the United states"
is prohibited from exporting any goods to China without a licence from the United States Treasury. In the Foreign Assets Control Regulations anyone subject to the jurisdiction of the United States is defined as follows:
"Any partnership, association, corporation, or other organization wheresoever organized or doing business, which is owned or controlled by persons specified …"
This, first and foremost, means that a very important point of principle is involved—that we are compelled as a result of the operation of these regulations over certain firms in Britain to surrender control over our own export policy. The President of the Board of Trade himself, in answer to Questions in the House the other day, said that he did not know of instances in which problems had arisen under these regulations, but their practical effect is this. China is interested in importing tractors from this country, and since 1956 two English firms, Massey-Ferguson and David Brown, have shipped about £2 million worth of tractors to China. As a result of the American majority holdings in the firm, Fords cannot and have not participated in that export trade. Nor has another firm which specialises in the manufacture of tractors, International Harvesters, in which there are also American majority holdings.
Let us take the example of passenger and commercial vehicles. Since 1953, three English firms—Standards, Austins and Rootes—among them have exported about £1,300,000 worth of passenger and commercial vehicles to China. This is clearly a vital export range which should be developed by other firms, but if they are firms in which the United States obtains a majority control those exports will no longer take place.
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There has recently been a rumour that Chryslers were to make a bid for Standards. That has since been denied but, as the Financial Times pointed out today that kind of denial is becoming a little suspect and it may well be that before we know where we are that bid will be resurrected and we shall have Chryslers buying Standards, in which case Standards' export markets in China will dry up.
Let us take the example of chemical plants. American controlled companies here, Kellog International, for example, had inquiries from China about this matter, but as soon as it was found that those inquiries came from China that was an end of the matter, because the firm concerned knew that such exports were contrary to Washington policy.
We know that there is a growing penetration of United States business into English companies. What will the consequences of that be to our export policy if the present regulations obtain? We know that China is very interested in the development of automation. Firms in this country like E.M.I. and Elliott Automation, which make electronic controls, computers and instrumentation for automation, are the sort of firms which could develop exports to China, and E.M.I. has already supplied colour television cameras for medical and industrial purposes.
Those are the types of industry in which the United States is beginning to invest. They are the sort of modern, forward-looking industries in which American capital is interested. That investment could go on steadily, sub rosa and through the Stock Exchange in the normal way, without any of us in the House being aware of the developing danger until we suddenly found that majority control had got into American hands and that interference with our trade with China had suddenly become a reality.
I think that the President of the Board of Trade himself is one who has always been interested in developing that trade with China, which has grown encouragingly. In value, our exports to China have risen from £11 million in 1956 to a rate of about £30 million in the current year. This is a developing market which we ought not to ignore. But there is a danger that in time, as a result of its

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quarrels with other countries and some of the accusations of being Communist that it makes against them, the United States will extend this embargo to cover those countries.
Recently, for instance, it has embargoed all its trade with Cuba. The Financial Times today has a most interesting report about the bad feeling which is now growing up between the United States and Canada because Canada is not prepared to observe the United States embargo on exports to Cuba. We all know that Canada is one of those countries which has suddenly awakened to find that about 50 per cent. of its industries has passed into American hands and it is no longer economic master in its own house.
In this connection, the report in the Financial Times today is a warning for us. It says:
"Mr. Herter, United States Secretary of State, says he has failed to get Canada's co-operation in the American embargo against Cuba, but will keep trying for it."
Then it adds this sinister phrase:
"American statements suggest that if Canada trades with Cuba the United States will look less kindly upon products from Canada."
When I raised this matter in the House the other day the President of the Board of Trade said:
"The regulations have been in force since 1951, and we have not so far found any reason to make representations about their operation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th November, 1960: Vol. 630, c. 197.]
The right hon. Gentleman added that he would look into any particular point that was made about them. That misses the whole point, because the present position is that United States subsidiaries in this country dare not make an official protest against this embargo. They just accept it. These facts obviously do not come to his attention. He does not seem to be aware that in 1957 Remington Rand, in England, received an order from Shanghai for typewriters and actually signed a contract, but that the American parent company then got to hear of it and raised the legal issue with the result that it was confirmed by the American Embassy here that it was within the embargo and the contract was cancelled.
The American Embassy cannot give me any example where American manufactured goods have ever been exported
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to China. We know that this intervention is not only operated here, but in Canada. The Chanceller of the Exchequer said in answer to a Question by my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson), who asked about American interference with a Canadian car deal with China, that he did not think my right hon. Friend had got his facts right. Her Majesty's Government do not know what is going on in the world.
Mr. Harold Wilson: On that particular point, my information came from the Canadian Government.
Mrs. Castle: I am sure that it is official. I too, have been checking.
The facts are that in 1957 Mr. Marshall Johnson returned from China with an order for 1,000 Ford cars. Washington intervened directly and stopped the deal. The American controlled firms in this country will not even pursue the many inquiries, because they know that this will happen. The attitude the Government should take is that as long as this American control persists the American firms and subsidiaries, or American controlled firms in this country, will just not try to export to China and, therefore, it is no good the Government talking about the possibilities of the Chinese market when this kind of barrier exists.
The only hope, I suggest, is for intervention at Government to Government level. It should not be left to individual firms to get into this kind of situation and then have to run to the Board of Trade saying, "Please teacher, will you take this up with the American Embassy?" That is a ridiculous way to do it.
This arrangement can be made, because I have made careful inquiries and have found that there is a loophole in the embargo to this extent—that there is an opportunity for discretion to be exercised by the United States Treasury. The embargo does not mean that there is no legal possibility of exports being made. It merely means that they can be made only under validated licence given by the United States Treasury. I therefore ask the President of the Board of Trade to approach the United States Treasury without further delay and to

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secure an understanding that there will be no refusal by the United States Treasury of licences for firms operating in this country to export to China goods which are not embargoed by us.
This is an issue of high principle—the issue of our own economic freedom inside our own country. It is a question whether British firms and workers, producing goods in this country, shall be subject to the policy of their own Government or to a foreign Government. I suggest that if a foreign Government control us, the situation is intolerable, and I ask the President of the Board of Trade to remedy it.
11.6 p.m.
Commander Anthony Courtney: I will not take more than a moment or two. I cannot believe that the situation, from a national point of view, is quite as tragic as the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle)suggests. British firms in which a majority of the shares are held by Americans are inhibited from trading with China, but from a national point of view that is not particularly disastrous, because there are always competitor firms under British control which are given a commercial advantage in this respect. From a national point of view, therefore, I contend that there is little special disadvantage.
The hon. Lady mentioned E.M.I., but E.M.I. has a very large holding in America; there is an American subsidiary of the British firm. As far as I know, neither E.M.I. nor the American subsidiary is inhibited from trading with China.
I therefore suggest that the situation is not quite as disastrous as the hon. Lady makes out.
11.8 p.m.
The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. F. J. Erroll): I am grateful for the brief intervention of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Commander Courtney), because he has drawn attention to an aspect of this matter with which the hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) did not fully deal. That is that investment goes both ways and that we must also remember that we are important invest-
374
tors in the United States. I agree that we do not follow the practice which the hon. Lady has described.
Mrs. Castle: That is the point.
Mr. Erroll: One reason that we do not follow that practice is that we do not have the same prohibition on exports to China. But we must be careful not to seek to take steps which might cause British investment in America to be frowned upon, because we are vulnerable both ways, or we have a position of strength both ways, according to how one looks upon it. We have the benefit of American investment in this country and we have the freedom to invest in profitable enterprises in the United States.
The reason why the American legislation is extended so widely is that if they did not extend controls to American owned or controlled subsidiaries overseas, it would leave a very big loophole in their system of prohibition. They could hardly be expected to make a special exemption in favour of British firms which were subsidiaries of or were controlled by American firms. Therefore, it is an understandable attitude which they have taken, although it occasionally leads to certain misunderstandings, which the hon. Lady has described with her usual eloquence.
I accept that the regulations are wide sweeping in their effect. They are designed to cover any "person within the United States" which, in the jargon of the regulations, is defined to include any firm "wheresoever organised or doing business" owned or controlled by residents of the U.S.A. or by corporations organised under the laws of the U.S.A.
This means, in effect, that the regulations are designed to control trade with China by any firms or organisations, wherever located, which are owned or controlled from the United States. I mention this because I do not want in any way to minimise the scope of the United States regulations.
I shall not discuss the legality of the regulations, but I do not think that there is any doubt that, if the United States Administration chose to, they would be perfectly free to proceed against individuals or organisations within the United States, if they were satisfied that it was within the power of

375
those organisations to prevent business With China.
The hon. Lady suggested that in this state of affairs we should approach the American Administration to resolve the apparent conflict between our trade policy and theirs in respect of Chinese business, and should stress particularly the importance of exports to the British economy, to which the hon. Lady was good enough to refer. We are very conscious of the importance of exporting our products to every country in the world, and China is no exception.
The situation we are discussing this evening is not, of course, the only difference between ourselves and the Americans in regard to relations with China. We do not feel that it would be right to approach the Americans on the differences between our attitude and theirs on exports to China in general terms, because the other matters, some of which were discussed during yesterday's short debate and others in Questions addressed to the Prime Minister last week, are of considerably greater importance.
This matter, which is minor in comparison, is not one which we think would be the most fruitful to raise with the Americans in advance of discussing some of the other difficulties or differences between ourselves and the Americans on China.
Mr. Douglas Jay: Does the Minister confirm that Fords, of Dagenham, regards itself as not free to export to China if it wishes to do so? Do we understand that the Government took no steps to make representations about this before granting permission?
Mr. Erroll: The position on Fords is that there is no change as a result of proceeding from 55 per cent. ownership to the proposed 100 per cent. ownership. As far as we can tell, the company was not free before, because the American parent had a majority holding in English Ford. The proposed acquisition of shares makes no difference to the position as it existed.
Mr. Jay: The Minister confirms that the company was not free before to export to China and the Government made no representations about this when they were considering the application for permission?
Mr. Erroll: It is not my business to try to interpret American law. What I am saying is that the proposed acquisition by the American parent of the outstanding balance of shares makes no difference to the position which existed before the announcement of the proposal. The position is one for the American Ford Company to satisfy itself on. It is not our business to interpret American law to American companies.
Mr. H. Wilson: It is a British company operating under British law. Even if this ridiculous state of affairs has been going on and no representations were made, when the Ford Company asked for permission to acquire the remaining 45 per cent. of shares the Government had them by the short hairs. Why did not the Government get a new agreement about this?
Mr. Erroll: Because we did not see that it made any difference to the position as it stood before the change. I hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite will allow me to continue. I have only five minutes left. I appreciate the interest they are taking in the debate, which is, I recognise, an important and serious one.
There would be little value in taking up a hypothetical case. In our view, we can only proceed usefully with this matter if we have clear and specific evidence. [An HON. MEMBER: "What does that mean?"] I will come to what that means, if I am allowed to do so, in the few minutes left to me. It is not as though our trade with China is being particularly damaged. We are, in fact, increasing our trade with China very satisfactorily.
Mrs. Castle: We could increase it still more.
Mr. Erroll: It is questionable. There might be more competition for our existing share of trade.
United Kingdom exports to China have increased during recent years. Our exports from January to October this year amounted to £26 million, compared with £17 million in the same period last year. We are not able to approach China as though it was a free market. It is a market which is strictly closed and controlled by the Chinese State Trading Corporations. The

377
market for some of the products to which the hon. Lady referred is not nearly as big as might be imagined.
During the first ten months of this year, we exported to China only 32 motor cars, 14 commercial vehicles and 14 tractors. [Interruption.] I am not being pleased about it. I am only showing that this trade, Which, hon. Members opposite claim, is banned to British firms or firms operating in Britain which are controlled from the United States, is not a very big trade at present. It is clear that the trade that is available is amply and adequately filled by British firms who are free to trade with China.
If, in the light of the political, financial and other considerations, China chooses to buy from the United Kingdom, it is more than likely that all her requirements can be met from the wide range of resources of the thousands of United Kingdom manufacturers and traders who are not in any way affected by the American regulations.
We feel that if we can have a specific case or a concrete problem, we can, and would, most certainly approach the United States Administration with a view to finding a solution.
Mr. Jay: Would the Minister—
Mr. Erroll: Not now; I have not time.
We think that the best prospect of achieving anything in the way of modification of the American attitude is only on the basis of discussing a particular case or specific problem. There is an additional good reason for our adhering to this policy. There may be purely commercial reasons why a United Kingdom subsidiary, whether on its own initiative or on instructions from its United States parent, may not wish to accept business with China. It may be a matter of not wishing to let the design get into Chinese hands, or there may be marketing arrangements round the world.
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Unless, therefore, United Kingdom organisations are prepared themselves to advise us that it is refusal of permission by the American authorities which prevents them from exporting to China, we would be in danger of interfering—wrongly, in my view—in the internal affairs of the companies concerned. [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] Hon. Members opposite may say Rubbish," but we feel that this is an important principle.
Possibly, as a result of tonight's discussion, American-controlled companies in this country will not be inhibited from applying to the United States Administration for specific authority if they see possibilities of exporting to China.
Mr. Jay: Are we to gather from the right hon. Gentleman's remarks that if there is an application by Chryslers to purchase Standards, or some other motor company, he will, therefore, refuse it as a concrete case?
Mr. Erroll: I am not prepared to discuss a hypothetical take-over bid. The right hon. Gentleman will not expect me to reply to that one.
Mrs. Castle: Am I to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's reply that if an American-controlled or owned company applies for a licence to export to China, but is refused by the American Treasury, the company should approach the right hon. Gentleman, who will then put up a ferocious battle on its behalf with the American authorities?
Mr. Erroll: If we were given a specific example by such a company, we would look at it carefully with a view to making an approach to the United States Administration.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at nineteen minutes past Eleven o'clock.

TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Employment, St. Helens (Females)
  Employment, St. Helens (Females)
  Exports to France
  Exports to France
  Hire Purchase
  Hire Purchase
  East Germany
  East Germany
  Leipzig Spring Fair
  Leipzig Spring Fair
  Summer Holiday Season (Committee's Report)
  Summer Holiday Season (Committee's Report)
  Russian Oil
  Russian Oil
MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Chargé d'Affaires, Peking (Office)
  Chargé d'Affaires, Peking (Office)
  Quarrying Industry (Returns)
  Quarrying Industry (Returns)
  Moor Hall Chapel, Harefield
  Moor Hall Chapel, Harefield
  Royal Opera House, Covent Garden (General Survey)
  Royal Opera House, Covent Garden (General Survey)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Building Operatives
  Building Operatives
  Letchworth
  Letchworth
  Properties, Compulsory Purchase (Resale)
  Properties, Compulsory Purchase (Resale)
  Cement Works, Kent (Alkali Inspectors)
  Cement Works, Kent (Alkali Inspectors)
  Planning Appeals, London
  Planning Appeals, London
HOUSING
  Slum Clearance Areas (Brandon and Byshottles)
  Slum Clearance Areas (Brandon and Byshottles)
  Cwmbran Development Corporation (Rents)
  Cwmbran Development Corporation (Rents)
NORTHERN RHODESIA
  Hodgson College, Lusaka (African Students)
  Hodgson College, Lusaka (African Students)
  Africans (Scientific and Technological Training)
  Africans (Scientific and Technological Training)
  Barotseland
  Barotseland
NYASALAND
  Constitution
  Constitution
SCOTLAND
  Scottish Certificate of Education
  Scottish Certificate of Education
  Housing Developments (Communal Television Aerials)
  Housing Developments (Communal Television Aerials)
  Hospital Maternity Beds
  Hospital Maternity Beds
  Teachers' Salaries
  Teachers' Salaries
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Insurance Contributions
  Insurance Contributions
  Common Market Countries (Investment)
  Common Market Countries (Investment)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Closure of Newspapers (Resolution)
  Closure of Newspapers (Resolution)
  Unemployment, Northern Ireland
  Unemployment, Northern Ireland
  Criminal Law Act, 1826 (Section 28)
  Criminal Law Act, 1826 (Section 28)
  Criminal Justice Act, 1948 (Section 11)
  Criminal Justice Act, 1948 (Section 11)
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Industrial Diseases
  Industrial Diseases
COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS
  Prime Ministers' Meeting
  Prime Ministers' Meeting
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Foot-and-Mouth Disease
  Foot-and-Mouth Disease
  Eggs
  Eggs
EMPLOYMENT
  Scotland
  Scotland
  Industrial Training Council
  Industrial Training Council
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  East Fortune Airfield
  East Fortune Airfield
EDUCATION
  Teachers
  Teachers
HOSPITALS
  Medical Superintendents
  Medical Superintendents
  JOINT SERVICES STAFF COLLEGE
  JOINT SERVICES STAFF COLLEGE
SHIPBUILDING
  Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering (D.S.I.R. Report)
  Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering (D.S.I.R. Report)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Chancellor

PARKING SITES OVER RAILWAYS
2.35 p.m.
LORD BOSSOM: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, since there is great difficulty in obtaining suitable sites at ground level for large garages, there is any reason why, as there are no structural difficulties, the land now occupied by the nationalised railway controlled marshalling yards, and also some of the areas now occupied by railway tracks at the approach to many of the larger stations in the cities, should not be covered with one or two or more parking platforms—an arrangement which has been most satisfactorily adopted in some countries.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): My Lords, there is certainly a need in most towns for more off-street parking space. The provision of parking facilities is a matter for local authorities and private enterprise; and the British Transport Commission are prepared, where railway operations permit, to discuss the leasing of sites. If, therefore, they can make mutually satisfactory arrangements to increase such facilities in the way suggested, my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport would welcome it.
LORD BOSSOM: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his promise that if and when a proposition is put up to him he will see it is carried forward, as far as his position enables him so to do, may I ask whether he is aware that this arrangement has been carried out in Chicago where they have steam trains and in New York where they have electric
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trains, and probably in a dozen other places, and we cannot find the land available anywhere to carry it out by any other means?
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, might I ask the noble Lord, before he replies to the noble Lord's supplementary question, whether this could not well be one of the questions to which Her Majesty's Government are addressing their attention in the proposals for the reorganisation of the British Transport Commission and its operations in the near future?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, may I take Lord Lucas of Chilworth's supplementary question first? I should not have thought that this particular aspect was entirely appropriate for that discussion, but it is certainly among other aspects that might well he considered, as he says, in the forthcoming considerations.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Would the noble Lord accept it from me that one of the deterrents to rail travel in the country as a whole is because one cannot find room to park one's motor car at some of the main line stations?
LORD CHESHAM: I think the noble Lord is becoming a little confused between station car parks and the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Bossom, for utilising railway space (if we may call it that) in other places by building car parks over it for the benefit of the public at large, and not necessarily in any way connected with the operation of the railways. I think that is so. My noble friend has already kindly drawn to my attention the benefits to be obtained by this scheme and, as I have said, should there be any good schemes put forward, the British Transport Commission would be ready to consider them.
LORD BOSSOM: I thank the noble Lord very much.

FAMILY PLANNING ASSOCIATION POSTER
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, in rising to ask this Question, I should like to explain that it was originally put down in the name of Lord Jessel, who, unfortunately, is indisposed and has asked me to put it.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the action of the British Transport Commission in ordering the removal of a perfectly harmless Family Planning Association advertisement and, if so, whether such action has their approval.]
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am told that the poster in question was withdrawn by the British Transport Commission because it was controversial on religious grounds. The responsibility for such decisions rests with the Commission, and Her Majesty's Government do not seek to influence or express any opinion on them.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, is it not remarkable that this advertisement, which had no controversial or objectionable matter in it, which had been fully accepted by the Board four or five months ago, and which was issued by a very responsible organisation, should now be removed, bearing in mind that dubious advertisements are still being shown on the railways in London? Does the noble Lord not remember that a similar attempt was made in this House to prevent the Family Planning Association from appealing for funds on the B.B.C., and on that occasion the Board of the B.B.C. stood firm? Is it not against all tolerance that this should happen, and is it not more an arrogant attack on liberty?
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I should like to put some supplementaries.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I think the noble Lord should be allowed to answer one set of supplementaries before another is put to him.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I do not believe this is an arrogant attack on liberty at all. So far as I am aware no one has suggested—at least, I have not been told so—that this poster was in any way offensive in itself. Indeed, I have seen a copy of it and I have one here. The poster itself is not exceptionable, but I am informed by the British Transport Commission that they have received letters objecting to the poster on religious grounds. I think I should remind the
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noble Lord of Rule l8 of the Commission's regulations regarding advertisements which they cannot accept. Rule 18 deals with posters
"which refer to religious or sacred subjects in a manner which might give offence or contain matter or illustrations likely to he construed as religiously controversial".
Evidently this poster was so considered, and the British Transport Commission, it appears, saw fit to withdraw it on those grounds.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, as I said, I should like to put some supplementary questions to the noble Lord. As there are several of them, I propose to divide them into two sections in order that he may be more easily able to remember them. Before doing so, perhaps I ought to admit to an interest of sorts in this problem, as I have the honour to be a Vice-President of the Family Planning Association. I should like to ask the noble Lord whether any reasonable man, looking at that advertisement, could possibly say that there was anything objectionable in it. It is said that it is the Roman Church which is conducting this vendetta against the Family Planning Association. I would ask the noble Lord whether the Government have any information which supports that view, which is so commonly held, and whether he is aware that this is at the present time causing intense anger among a large number of citizens, many of whom have had most valuable help from the Family Planning Association in regard to their family problems. I would also ask the noble Lord whether the Government do not think that at this time, when the most reverend Primate the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury has been conducting a goodwill mission, so to speak, to Rome and the Pope, it is most unfortunate that this sort of matter should be raised in this way. II want to ask some more questions, but those are the first.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I really think that the questions which the noble Lord has asked are not matters upon which I can comment. They are matters upon which, as I said in my answer, the Government do not seek to influence or express any opinion; they are decisions which are the responsibility of the British Transport Commission. And I really cannot go any further than that.
LORD CHORLEY: Would the noble Lord say whether the information of the Government is that it is the Roman Church which is conducting this vendetta? We know that it was so in connection with the British Medical Association handbook that was censored. Quite apart from this vendetta, do not the Government feel that pressure brought by minorities, whether the Roman Church or any other minority, on public institutions like the Transport Commission is very dangerous in the public interest? Do not the Government think that the law ought to be tightened up in order to prevent it? Over recent years we have been passing Acts of Parliament to prevent restrictive practices on the part of industrial concerns.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, this is introductory to the question, whether the Government do not think that something of the same sort should be put on the Statute Book to prevent this pressure from being brought to bear, which I suggest is, in its own way, just as dangerous as industrial pressure.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, there is no question, however controversial, which cannot be discussed in Parliament, but I do not think it is fair that my noble friend should be pressed to answer questions on this matter which do not arise quite out of the original matter, when he has already disclaimed Government responsibility. If the noble Lord wants to pursue questions of this sort, it is open to him to put down a substantive Motion and then time can be allowed for it, if the House desires it.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, it is all very well to ride away behind this immunity of public Corporations to have their decisions questioned in your Lordships' House, but it is obvious—and I am sure that the noble Viscount will agree—that very soon we shall have to have an actual Resolution debated in the House on this matter, because it goes from Corporation to Corporation now on the very matter which is being discussed. In the last few weeks some of us Protestants have been denied access to make a statement of our case on public broadcasting, and if that sort of thing continues the Government must surely expect to get a great deal of trouble.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I do not know that the Government need have any trouble at all. If the noble Viscount desires to put a Resolution down on the Order Paper, it is within his power to do so; and I am sure that if the House wishes to discuss it, it will. But I feel also that the House will support the Government in not desiring to introduce the Government into matters for which the will of Parliament, not the Government, is responsible.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, may I put a final question to the Minister concerned? May I have confirmation that the poster displayed conformed in all possible respects with the rules and regulations laid down by London Transport?
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I am not sure that I understand the full import of the noble Lord's question. I seem to have got myself into slightly deep water in this matter, through endeavouring to be helpful and to give the noble Lord all the facts I have available in order to help him with his question. I have told him what I have been informed was the reason for withdrawing the poster, which is the question that he asked. That is the reason and, so far as I am aware, there is no other one.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I think that this is a matter which will have to be raised outside Question Time.

ACCOMMODATION AT THE LAW COURTS
2.48 p.m.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government if they will consider building an extension to the Law Courts in the Strand upon the bombed site adjacent to the Divorce Courts, and so improve the accommodation available to Her Majesty's Judges.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, this proposition is very much in my mind and I fully realise the need to improve and increase the existing court accommodation. Indeed, outline plans already exist for extending the Law Courts in this way.

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But these plans were made some time ago and would not now meet all the requirements. I am in consultation with my right honourable friend the Minister of Works on the matter, which raises difficult questions, architectural and financial, and which may well decide the future of the Royal Courts of Justice for the next fifty years.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, may I thank the noble and learned Viscount for his very helpful answer? I am sure that he will absolve me from any desire to be impertinent in pointing out to him that, if his hopes can be realised, it will fulfil at least one of the basic principles of British justice: that justice should not only be done but also be seen to be done. The present accommodation in the Courts of Justice in the Strand really prohibits the public from seeing it, for if they find their way to the top attics, which are supposed to be courts of justice, when they get there often they are denied admittance because of the physical impossibility of getting them into these small rooms. I am sure that what the noble and learned Viscount has said will be received with great satisfaction as one step forward.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Viscount whether he will have a look at the question of utilising the vast central hall in the Law Courts? So far as I am aware, it has always been considered an architectural white elephant, and I do not think it has been filled since Queen Victoria opened the Law Courts. Is it possible that some use could be made of this valuable space?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have considered the matter, and I have it very much in mind. There is only one minor correction of fact that I would make. When a much less important person opens the Law Courts at the beginning of each year that hall is always full. That is not really relevant to the noble Lord's point, but I thought I would mention it.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, does not the noble and learned Viscount feel that it is rather a scandal that nearly 20 years after this destruction was done by the enemy this ground should still be in the condition it is?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I dealt with this matter in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, who raised it earlier. I said that the position which one can secure in the queue for building and expenditure is a difficult matter. I am not going into details, but I think everyone has felt that to get the priorities right in regard to houses, schools, factories, hospitals, technological institutions, universities and many other projects is a very difficult matter indeed. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Chorlery, that I do my best to get a reasonable position in the queue, and I shall go on trying.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed to ask this quite simple question. If the Lord Chancellor's worst fears are realised, would he consider it proper that the vacant site should be disposed of for development and sold for the benefit of the taxpayer?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, at the moment my fears are not as bad as all that, and I hope they will not be. If they really descend to these terrible depths I will communicate with the noble Lord.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, does the noble and learned Viscount think that if a Resolution of this House were passed to the effect that it is felt, not only here but in the legal profession as a whole, that the situation is in fact scandalous it would help him to get the priority to which he has referred?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am not a great believer in the use of adjectives.

CONFERENCE ON CENTRAL AFRICA
2.54 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I should like to ask Her Majesty's Government a Question of which I have given them Private Notice: Whether the Government will make a statement on the withdrawal of the African delegates from the Federal Review Conference at Lancaster House yesterday, and on the postponement of the Central African Territorial Conference?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, as I believe the noble Viscount knows, there is to be a parallel Question in another place in similar terms, and I am hoping that my noble friend the Duke of Devonshire will be available to answer the noble Viscount's Question a little later in the Sitting, if that is convenient to your Lordships.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, we have made good progress on the Weights and Measures Bill, but in view of the fact that we now have on the Marshalled List more Amendments than when we started the Committee stage (I do not lay the blame for that on any one section of the House, because the Amendments have come from all sides) I am afraid that it will be necessary to continue the Committee stage of this Bill to-day and on Thursday and again on Monday and Tuesday of next week; and it may be necessary to sit late on Tuesday.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Earl (I cannot use his long title), the Chief Whip, for this information. We will gladly serve on Monday to provide extra time for the consideration of this important Bill. But I think the Government will agree that in the way in which the matter has panned out the House has not been backward in giving strict and disciplined attention to the matters so far dealt with in what is a very technical Bill. If the Amendments keep on coming in—and not only from this side, but from all noble Lords Who are really interested in the Bill—we cannot guarantee that we shall get it through before Christmas. We will do our best, given time, but I should like the Leader of the House, who is a very experienced Parliamentarian, to consider this fact. In another place in Standing Committees they usually spend two hours in the morning, and they may adjourn and spend another three hours in the afternoon on special occasions when dealing in Committee with a Bill. Here, noble Lords, who have little of the assistance offered in another place, have to sit in full session for very long hours, and in the case of this side of the House with not too many of us to share the burden; and to sit for long hours a day on a
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technical Bill of this kind is a great strain. I hope that, when thinking of the arrangements for Business, the Government will bear this in mind. In the meantime, as I say, we shall be glad to meet on Monday, and we will do all we can to expedite the Bill, so long as we can deal with each of the Amendments.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAIM: My Lords, I am sure the Government are grateful to the noble Viscount for the help he has given and for what he has said, and we will certainly bear those considerations in mind.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I think it will be for the convenience of the House if I ask your Lordships to approve the Sunday Entertainments Act Orders en bloc. I beg to move that these Orders be approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Todmorden, be approved;
That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Wrexham, be approved;
That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Urban District of Penistone, be approved.—(Earl Bathurst.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CUTLERY AND STAINLESS STEEL FLATWARE INDUSTRY (SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH LEVY) ORDER, 1960
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): My Lords, this is an Order under the Industrial Improvements and Development Act, 1947, which enables a levy to be imposed on people engaged in an industry for certain purposes, including scientific research. The levy imposed on the cutlery and stainless steel industry in this Order is calculated to raise about

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£10,000 and this, together with an appropriate grant from the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, will be spent on scientific research with the purpose of improving the competitive power of the industry in its export trade. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft Cutlery and Stainless Steel Flatware Industry (Scientific Research Levy) Order, 1960, be approved.—(The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

TRUSTEE INVESTMENTS BILL [H.L.]
2.59 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be again in Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
(The Lord MERTHYR in the Chair]
Clause 2 [Restrictions on wider-range investment]:
On Question, Whether Clause 2, as amended, shall be agreed to?
LORD CONESFORD: I should be grateful if one of my noble friends in charge of the Bill would enlighten us a little further on one point in Clause 2 of the Bill. This clause lays down that advantage is not to be taken of the Bill unless the trust fund—and then I quote the words in subsection (1):
"has been divided into two parts ".
This division is of great importance throughout the rest of the Bill, and I want to be a little clearer about what is meant by the division. Is the division a physical division or is it purely notional? If, as I assume from the absence of any subsequent provisions in the Bill, it is a notional division—that is to say, something that exists in the minds of the trustees—I wish to know whether the fact of the division and the particulars have to be recorded, and, if so, when they have to be recorded, and whether the information has to be given to anybody. I think the Committee would desire that we should be a little
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clearer on what is meant by this division.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The division has to be recorded in the annual accounts of the trust. In these accounts it has to be shown which securities are in the narrower-range half and which in the wider-range half of the trust. All the beneficiaries of the trust are entitled to see the annual accounts, so that they will be aware of the position and will have an opportunity of examining which securities are in which half. Once this division has been made it is, as my noble friend is aware, a permanent division, except as provided for by the Bill.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3 [Relationship between Act and other powers of investment]:
LORD CONESFORD: In this Amendment I am moving to omit subsections (4), (5) and (6) of this clause because I do not know what they mean, and I find that my inability to understand them is very widely shared. The Committee will, I hope, agree that the provisions of a Trustee Act ought to be comprehensible to trustees. I am moving to leave out these three subsections in order to encourage my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor to do two things: first, to tell us what each of these subsections means; and, secondly, to show us that each is necessary and wise. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 22, leave out subsections (4), (5) and (6).— (Lord Conesford.)
LORD HAWKE: I think it would be convenient at this stage if I put forward a few propositions, of which I have given my noble and learned friend notice, and which, if he can confirm them, will stand on the record as showing what the Bill does in relation to several basic forms of trust, because these are things that are worrying trustees up and down the country. First of all, I understand that a trust with adequate existing powers need take no notice of the Bill at all. Secondly, a trust with inadequate powers and with no existing investments allowed under the Bill divides into 50 per cent. narrower-range investments and 50 per cent. wider-range investments. It can

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invest more than 50 per cent. in the narrower range, but not more than 50 per cent. in the wider range. Thirdly, there is the trust with no power to hold equities but power to retain investments which are not authorised under the Bill—for instance, land, shares in a private company, foreign bonds or foreign shares. The trustees of such a fund can carry on under their existing powers, but if they wish to invest in equities they must divide the fund. Their unauthorised investments will be put in the wider half, and sufficient funds must be raised and invested in narrower-range securities to provide a matching narrower-range half. After that, if they wish to buy equities, they will have to receive from the wider-range half enough to pay for those equities plus an equal amount of narrower-range securities to match those equities.
Fourthly, there is the trust which has power to retain or invest in unauthorised securities—lands, et cetera—but which has divided its funds and has taken advantage of the Bill in order to buy some equities. If this trust receives a gift or legacy of unauthorised securities which the trustees wish to retain, they must put the gift or legacy into the wider-range part of their fund and must receive sufficient cash from the wider-range part to buy an equivalent in narrower-range securities to put into the narrower-range part. In practice this means 50 per cent. of the value of the gift. Finally, if those same trustees want to invest in an unauthorised security under these special powers, the same procedure will have to be adopted. If my noble and learned friend can confirm that that reading of this clause is correct, and it gets on to the official Record, it will do quite a lot to clear up the doubts of some of the trustees up and down the land who are bombarding the would-be experts with questions which at the moment they cannot answer.
LORD SALTOUN: There is a question in my mind, but perhaps I have not quite understood my noble friend correctly. I should like to know whether it is the case that, if the trustees of a trust which is empowered to hold land wish to buy some equities under this Bill, they have to bring in their holding of land and real property as part of the wider-range
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investments before they buy the equities. That seems to me an extraordinary position.
LORD SPENS: That is the point which I took on the Second Reading: what happens where a trust under the existing powers of the Settled Land Acts or otherwise has land and has an invested fund? I suggested on Second Reading that the trustees were entitled to take into account the value of the land in order to try to get at a "fifty-fifty" division so as to take advantage of the power in the Bill to invest in equities, if they have not already got it. Of course, many of the old strict trusts in this country have not got investment powers.
On Second Reading, my noble friend Lord Dundee said that he thought land did not come into the trust at all. Since then I have had the advantage of making inquiries and considering the matter, and I have been informed that in fact where land is held on exactly the same trust as a number of investments, then it is one trust, except in so far as under Clause 4 part of the land is used as a dwelling-house, which has to be kept as a separate trust. Otherwise, the land can be valued and the trustees, if they want to take advantage of the powers in the Bill, can in fact take it into account in deciding how much of the invested funds they can put into equities. I hope that that is the position. Certainly I think that a great number of trustees whose trusts have land want to know how they stand.
3.8 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I shall be pleased to do my best to deal with the three points that have been raised by my noble friends. May I first deal with the general point raised by my noble and learned friend Lord Conesford? The three subsections which the Amendment would delete are a necessary part of the clause which is concerned with the relationship between the powers conferred by the Bill and those conferred by the trust instrument. The aim is to secure that a trustee may, first, use exclusively the powers conferred upon him by his trust instrument; secondly, use exclusively the powers conferred on him by the Bill; and, thirdly, use jointly the powers conferred by the trust instrument and those conferred by the Bill, but with the proviso that the two sets of powers should not be cumulative.

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The proviso which I have just mentioned is important. Without it, many trustees would get powers greatly in excess of those intended by the testator or by the other authority which made or amended the trust instrument. For example, a trustee might quite recently have obtained authority from the courts to invest, say, 60 per cent. of the trust fund in equities and the balance in securities comprised in the present trustee list. In other words, the courts would have taken a positive decision that the right proportion of equity investment for the fund in question was 60 per cent. Without the proviso which I have just mentioned, the trustee would be able, after the passage of the Bill, to invest the whole of his fund in equities. That is to say, he would first be able to make use of the powers contained in his trust instrument to invest 60 per cent. in equities, and as the balance of his fund was less than 50 per cent., he would be able, under the provisions of the Bill, to put the whole of it into equities. That would be wrong anti that is why the proviso has to exist. Subsections (4), (5) and (6) of Clause 3 are no more than machinery to implement that proviso; they prescribe rules which a trustee must observe if he makes use of both the powers conferred by his instrument and those conferred by the Bill. The observance of these rules will prevent the cumulative effect and will thus ensure that the intentions of a testator or of the courts are not frustrated.
If your Lordships will bear with me (because I want to try to make this clear) I should like to explain the matter a little more. As your Lordships are aware, many trustees who may wish to make use of the wider powers granted by the Bill may already have investment powers going beyond the existing trustee list, and this clause lays down how such other powers (referred to as "special powers") fit in with the Bill's powers. To take an example, the special power may be a power to postpone, at the discretion of the trustees, the conversion into authorised trustee investments of securities in the hands of the trustees at the time of the creation of the trust; or it may be a specific power to invest in the securities, perhaps the shares, of named companies or a class of companies; or again, as is common, it may include a power
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to invest in land. Such powers may have been granted in the original instrument or, as I said, they may have been granted by the courts or by Parliament as the result of a bid by the trustee for freedom from the trustee list.
The Bill, therefore, offers the trustee the following choice. First, he may at any time rely solely on his special powers. In that case, if the fund has been divided under Clause 2 (1) the restriction imposed by Clause 2 (2) on the type of investment which may be bought with property held in the narrower-range part of the fund is lifted. Secondly, he may at any time use the bowers conferred by the Bill. Thirdly, if he uses the powers under the Bill to buy or retain wider-range investments then any investment, other than narrower-range investments, bought or held under a special power must be held only in the wider-range part of the fund in other words, Clause 2 (2) becomes effective again.
If my noble friend would be kind enough to follow me through the clause I should be grateful. Subsection (1) explains that the powers granted by the Bill are additional to, and do not derogate from, existing special powers. Subsection (2) allows special powers to be used to invest or retain narrower-range property in investments other than narrower-range investments; that is, contrary to the general rule in Clause 2 (2) that the narrower-range part may be used only for narrower-range investment. So much for the provisions of the first of my three propositions which I put a moment ago.
Subsection (3) provides that where a special power was granted, before the passing of this Bill, to invest in trustee investments, such power shall have effect only subject to the same limitations as a power granted under the Bill. This is to make clear that a special power, for example, to invest in "investments for the time being authorised by law for trustees", which by the passing of the Act will authorise the investments in the First Schedule, may authorise such investment subject to the limitations contained in the Bill, and not without regard to them. I think that is clear.
The remaining three subsections are simply machinery to enforce my third

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proposition. May I remind your Lordships that my third proposition was that if the trustee uses the powers under the Bill to buy or retain wider-range investments, then any investment other than narrower-range investments bought or held under a special power must be held only in the wider-range part of the fund; in other words, Clause 2 (2) of the Bill becomes effective again. It shall have effect, as I said, only according to the Bill. Subsection (4) requires that if the special powers are used to invest or retain narrower-range part property in investments other than narrower range (as permitted by subsection (2)), the property so invested must forthwith be transferred to the wider-range part. This is no more than machinery to earmark an amount of property which has contrary to the general rule in Clause 2 (2), been invested in investments other than narrower range. I hope that is clear: that if you use the special powers to invest or retain narrower-range part property in investments other than narrower range, then you must earmark them. That is the effect of subsection (4).
Subsection (5) causes the same thing to happen to similar property accruing to the fund which the trustee is entitled to retain under a special power. Subsection (6) lays down what must happen when either of the foregoing subsections has effect and the powers under the Bill are used to invest in or retain wider-range investments. I will take a case. When subsection (4) has had effect (for example, the special powers were used to invest narrower-range property in investments other than narrower range), subsection (6) requires that before the powers under the Bill are used to buy wider-range investments, property shall be transferred from the wider-range part to the narrower-range part equal in value to the property which was transferred to the wider-range part when subsection (4) had effect. In other words, the value of the earmarked property must be returned to the narrower-range part. There may, of course, have been a gap in time between the effect of subsection (4) and subsection (6).
When subsection (5) has had effect, a similar transfer of property must occur before the powers in the Bill may be
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used to buy or retain wider-range investments, except that in order to achieve the right allocation of property to each part on accrual—perhaps the noble Lord will look at Clause 2 (3) (b)—property equal to only half the value of the earmarked property, at the time of accrual, is transferred to the narrower-range part. I should be very doubtful about giving an example, because it is so difficult to make an example clear by word of mouth, but if I may take a simple one I hope it may help my noble friends. Take the example of a trust deed which permits the trustee to retain such shares in the family business as he has in his hands at the death of the testator—that is, a special power under subsection (1) of this clause—and otherwise to invest the trust property in trustee investments.
I will assume, for the sake of my example, that the trust property consists of £6,000 worth of shares in the family business and £4,000 of gilt-edged stock. Having that £6,000 in the family business and £4,000 in gilt-edged, the trustee decides to make some wider-range investment for reasons that seem good to him under his Bill powers. He first divides the fund into two—that is under Clause 2 (1). Then subsection (4) (a) of this clause insists that if any of the family shares are allocated to the narrower-range part, they must forthwith be 'transferred to the wider-range part. That is the first step, so that his division would be divided "fifty-fifty ", and consist of £4,000 gilt-edged and £1,000 family shares on the narrower side and £5,000 worth of family shares on the wider side. The next stage, of course, is that he would have to place the 1,000 family shares in the wider range, so that he would then be faced with the position that in the narrower range are £4,000 gilt-edged, and in the wider range are £5,000 family shares, and the other £1,000, making £6,000 of family shares in all.
Before the trustee can buy the wider-range equities which he wants, on my hypothesis under the Bill, he must first transfer back from the wider-range to the narrower-range property equal in value to the property previously transferred—that is under subsection (6) of the clause. In this case, therefore, there being no lapse of time between the operation I have just mentioned and this transfer, he switches back the same

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block of family shares, still worth £1,000; but Clause 2 (2) will then require him, as he is going under the Bill, to re-invest this £1,000 worth of property in narrower-range investments because it has come to the narrower-range side. The penultimate position is that he will have £5,000 worth of gilt-edged and £5,000 worth of family shares; and, then ultimately he must sell some more of the family shares in order to buy the wider-range equities that he wants.
I have tried to give a simple example, and I hope that shows how it works. I should like to tell my noble friend Lord Conesford that in the preliminary stages of devising this Bill, a process with which he is very well familiar from his ministerial experience, we went through a great number of other choices to the one that we have taken. I am not going through them again to-day, but I should like him to know that we tried, and we found grave objections to the other methods of dealing with it. I am most willing to explain them if anyone is interested, but I do not think I need at the moment.
Now I come to the "examination paper" which my noble friend Lord Hawke has been good enough to set me. Contrary to other examination papers of which I have the most disastrous memories, he set me the questions in advance, so that I have been able to do a little more research. I should like to deal with them. As to the first and second, I have no qualification to make, to the best of my ability, to what my noble friend Lord Hawke said. In the third question, in the last sentence which he read, he said that after that, if they wished to buy equities, they would have to receive from the wider half enough to pay for those equities plus an equal amount of narrower-range securities to match the equities. I have tried to explain that, but it seemed to me that there was a suggestion in that sentence that trustees can realise narrower-range securities to buy equities. This, if it is intended, is wrong. Once there has been a division, narrower-range property cannot be invested in wider-range investments. There is one exception. Under the Government's Amendment made yesterday to Clause 2—Amendment No. 4 on the Marshalled List—a gilt-edged security in the wider-
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range part is allowed to be exchanged for a gilt-edged security in the narrower-range part for the purpose of selling the latter in order to buy equities.
The only other matter—this is a small one—is that in example number 4 my noble friend Lord Hawke said that trustees must put the gift or legacy into the wider part of the fund and must receive sufficient cash from the wider part. I think the word "realise" instead of "receive" would be clearer, although I am not saying that "receive" is wrong.
LORD HAWKE: Yes.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think that deals with that point.
LORD HAWKE: Before my noble and learned friend leaves that point, may I say that I thank him very much for this, and that where he has queried my example number 3 it is because of my faulty draftsmanship. I fully intended that an amount of the wider-range should be sold sufficient not only to pay for the new equities but also to buy an equivalent of narrower-range investments; and I think my example is entirely on all fours with the one he gave my noble friend Lord Conesford.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I think that point is clear now. I wanted to avoid misapprehension so far as I could. Now I come to the point which was troubling my noble friend Lord Saltoun, and was raised in greater detail by my noble and learned friend Lord Spens. Your Lordships will remember that in the Second Reading debate my noble and learned friend Lord Spens asked whether settled land can be a separate fund for the purpose of the Bill, or would count as a wider-range investment so as to limit the trustees' powers of investing in equities. As he indicated just now, the question is concerned with what is technically known as a strict settlement and typically land—for example, a family estate is settled on "A" for life with the remainder in tail; investments for maintaining the estate may be settled with him and, on the sale of any of the settled land, the proceeds of sale, technically referred to as capital moneys arising under the settlement, may be invested. This is what may loosely be described as one settlement, or contain both settled land and

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investments, and the question is whether the two form one fund or two.
In the normal case the question does not arise, for under the Settled Land Act, the settled land would be vested in the tenant for life and not in the trustees, while it is the trustees who will hold the capital moneys. But if the tenant for life is an infant, the land will be vested in the trustees of the settlement until he reaches his majority. But this will not prevent the settled land and investments from being separate funds, for under Clause 3 (2) of the Bill there must be separate funds unless the purposes and powers are identical. I believe my noble and learned friend will agree that this is not so, for while the trustees have the powers of a tenant for life over the settled land, they have (under the Settled Land Act, or the terms of the settlement) a different set of powers given for different purposes over the investments and capital moneys.
LORD CONESFORD: I believe my noble and learned friend referred just now to Clause 3 (2) whereas no doubt he meant Clause 4 (2).
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am much obliged to my noble friend and I apologise. Subsections (3) and (5) of Clause 4 would in some cases make this settled land a separate fund, but only if all the estate were occupied by the beneficiary—which is unlikely in the case of a large agricultural or town estate. My noble and learned friend has also asked whether trustees should not be given power to invest in land, and I believe that that matter has been in the minds of many of your Lordships. Land may be a very good investment and it is not uncommon for trust instruments to contain power to invest in it; but there are often special problems and responsibilities which go with the holding of land, even for investment purposes, and, further, it is not readily marketable in all circumstances.
While therefore—and I hope your Lordships will follow the differentiation I am making—such an investment power may be perfectly suitable for a particular trust, I do not think the investment powers of trustees generally should be widened in this way, for the reasons I have given. There is only one point
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about which I am not sure I made myself clear. I do not know that I was absolutely right in what I said in my exchange with my noble friend Lord Hawke, for it is very difficult to be clear in an exchange of words; but I want to make clear that once the wider-range part has been set up it can be used for reinvestment in equities without any balancing purchase of gilt-edged. I believe my noble friend understood that.
LORD HAWKE: Yes—because there has been no fresh influx into it.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes. I hope that that is now clear. I apologise for taking up so much of your Lordships' time, but I have tried to give an exposition of the law as it is.
LORD SPENS: Is the position the same with land settled under a trust for sale? That is a very common modern form of settlement, compared with the old strict settlement. One gets land settled on trust for sale and investment with exactly the same beneficiaries and, I suspect, more or less the same powers. There would then be a trust in which it would be necessary to take in the value of the land to get the "fifty-fifty" position.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I should very much like to look into that again, and I will write to my noble friend. I ought to give the caveat that I have been very free with legal opinions this afternoon. I believe that I am right, but it is only to the best of my knowledge and belief for, despite your Lordships' helpful interpositions, I have not really had the case argued in front of me. I must make that qualification. But I have given my account of the law as it seems to me, and in the firm belief that it is right.
EARL WINTERTON: Before the noble and learned Viscount sits down may I ask him a question which I believe is pertinent? I understand that an association known as the British Insurance Association, which represents the interests of the insurance companies, who are very much concerned with trustee work, is in the main satisfied with These clauses and, indeed, agrees with everything that my noble and learned friend has said. Have there been consultations of which my noble and learned friend is aware?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I believe that that is so, and I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Winterton for what he has said. As he has raised the point of reinsurance of opinion, as well as dealing with insurance funds, I would say also that my noble and learned friend Lord Cohen, who unfortunately cannot be with us to-day, as he has another very important engagement, authorises me to say that he is in agreement with the views I put forward. My legal friends will know what a tower of strength that is to me.
LORD SALTOUN: As my noble and learned friend must know very well, in Scotland, as well as in England, many businesses are carried on by a company which is unlimited, and the trustees who 'have to administer such properties get special powers in their trust; and whether it is legal or not they do, in fact, hold these shares. Although they are valued for estate duty they have no market value, because one cannot sell a share in an unlimited company to a stranger. I should like to know whether I am right in taking it that such trusts would be absolutely precluded from making any use at all of this Bill when it becomes an Act, or whether there is any way in which they can do so in handling their affairs.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My noble friend Lord Saltoun has mentioned the words "special powers in the trust", and one would have to look at that and see what powers were given. I should not have thought it was beyond the wit of man to dispose of such shares according to the method which, in my experience, is usually laid down in the articles of the company. They can dispose of them only in a certain limited way, but usually there are provisions as to the valuation of shares in that way. I should like to look at that point again, however, because I cannot put myself forward as an authority on Scots law, much at it interests Mme and deeply as it runs in my blood; and therefore perhaps I might write to my noble friend when perhaps I can give him a better answer.
LORD SALTOUN: That occurs in England, too, of course; there are such companies here.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes, but I should like to cover the Scots position, too.
LORD CONESFORD: The Amendment that I put down to omit these three subsections has produced an admirably careful exposition from my noble and learned friend who has greatly enlightened the Committee. That was the aim of my Amendment. Those who are interested will certainly wish to study in the pages of Hansard what my noble and learned friend has said, because there may be Amendments which, at a subsequent stage, we may wish to move. Meanwhile, I thank my noble and learned friend very much for the exposition which he has given and ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: As my noble friend the Duke of Devonshire is now in a position to answer the Question put earlier by the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition, I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved, That the House do now resume.— (Viscount Hailsham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and House resumed accordingly.

CONFERENCE ON CENTRAL AFRICA
3.40 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMON WEALTH RELATIONS (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, as the noble Viscount the Leader of the House informed the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, at the beginning of the Sitting I should be, I am now in a position to give the noble Viscount an Answer to his Private Notice Question, which, with the permission of the House, I will give in the same terms as were used by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State in answer to a similar Question in another place:
"At the opening meeting of the Federal Review Conference on December 5, all delegates agreed that their proceedings would be confidential. I do not therefore propose to say anything about what took place at our meetings. However, honourable Members will have read in this morning's newspapers statements made outside the Conference by certain of

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the African delegates. From these statements it would appear that these delegates have decided not to attend any further meetings of the Conference.
"The Conferences to review the Constitutions of Southern Rhodesia and Northern Rhodesia are of course closely inter-related with the Conference to review the Constitution of the Federation. It was therefore decided to postpone these territorial conferences, which were to have opened this morning, in order to provide an opportunity to clarify the position. The Federal Conference is, of course, continuing as planned and is at this moment in session."
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGH: My Lords, I am much obliged to the Minister for kindly giving us that reply. Is he aware that all Parties, I think, in the State will have seen with great regret what was reported in the Press this morning about this interruption, or partial interruption, of the Conference? It is not for us at this stage to make any comment whatsoever on that; I think it would be most unwise. On the other hand, I think it was quite reasonable to postpone the opening sessions of the proposed Conferences dealing with territorial questions relating to Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland. But I am sure that the Government will not mind if we submit to them the anxiety we have and say that we should not like the very important possibilities of reforms in these two territories to be badly affected by the present situation. We hope that somehow a bridge may be found to pursue both desirable reforms.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Viscount for his helpful comment to my reply, and I can assure him that the territorial Conferences will open as soon as we are satisfied that there is a reasonable prospect of fruitful discussion.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Duke whether he and his colleagues in the Department will do everything they possibly can to get the Africans who walked out to come back in? May I ask him whether he is aware that it is the experience of many of us who have dealt with Africans that this
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does happen occasionally? When they come to what they consider to be a blank wall, they tend to walk out; and it may be possible for them to come back in if they are approached and if better counsels prevail.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I am quite sure that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will take due note of what the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has said. Naturally, Her Majesty's Government are as anxious as anyone that the Federal Conference should continue as fully representative as possible. And if, within reason, the Africans are prepared to return, they will be welcome at Lancaster House.
LORD REA: My Lords, may I underline what has been said, both on a Party line and on a non-Party line? This matter is viewed with the greatest concern not only in this country but elsewhere. Here is an opportunity of doing something. Might I ask the Government to give an assurance that they will (what I think is called) lean over backwards to see that the matter does not fall to the ground and that this great opportunity is not postponed for longer than necessary?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I am not sure if by leaning over backwards one stops from falling to the ground.
EARL WINTERTON: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend the representative of the Commonwealth Relations Office, if I may put it without effusion, whether he is aware that the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition has most admirably expressed the views of all of us, I think, in this House who take an interest in African matters? And may I respectfully hope that we shall not pursue the matter further at this moment, because it will do only harm?

TRUSTEE INVESTMENTS BILL [H.L.]
3.45 p.m.
House again in Committee.
On Question, Whether Clause 3 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD HAWKE: We have had an excellent and most valuable debate on the meaning of Clause 3 and we now know what Clause 3 is intended to mean.

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But, bereft of the OFFICIAL REPORT, any trustee being presented with Clause 3 is liable to have very serious difficulty in discovering for himself what it means. In fact, as it stands I would suggest that Clause 3 is just a form of National Assistance for the Chancery Bar, with the proviso that the money, instead of coming out of the taxpayers' pockets, will come from trustees or trusts. I wonder whether Her Majesty's Government could have a look at the whole clause again to see whether in some respects it could be made a little easier to understand.
One point which is particularly baffling to the more simple-minded is the apparent contradiction between Clause 2 (2) and Clause 3 (2). We now see that there is no contradiction at all, because the noble and learned Viscount has given us an example of the arithmetic involved. But they were quite definitely arithmetical gymnastics, and I do not think that any trustee, reading the Bill, could possibly guess that that is what he is supposed to do. I hone that some attempt can be made, possibly by putting in another subsection somewhere, to make this clause clearer, particularly concerning the exercise of special powers and the way they react on ordinary powers.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I should like to say this to my noble friend. He has been most kind and most helpful in putting to me the points that he had in mind, and I have tried to deal with them. The point which makes for the difficulty in drafting is my point number three. It is easy if you rely on your special powers it is easy if you rely on Bill powers. But if you use the powers under the Bill for wider-range investments, then any other investment other than narrower-range investments bought or held under a special power must be held only in the wider-range part of the fund. My third proposition is one which it is very difficult to provide for the interaction, without going into the subsections which we have just been discussing. Of course we will have another look. It may well be that what has been said in this House will provide us with fresh inspiration. But I must say to my noble friend that, judging by the amount of work that has gone into the problem in the earlier stages, I cannot make any promises on this point. I hope that when he examines what I have said, and then re-reads the
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clause in the light of that, he may find that the difficulties are not so great as he first imagined. Of course, we never weary in welldoing, and we will try our best. But I feel that, when one has the problem, and one's approach to the solution of the problem, clearly in mind, the clause, in turn, becomes clear. However, as I say, I am quite willing to look at it again, but I do pose to my noble friend the problem which must be solved, and no clause that does not solve that problem really carries out what we want to do.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5:
Duty of trustees in choosing investments
5.—(1) In the exercise of his powers of investment a trustee shall have regard—
to the need for securing that investments of the trust are, so far as circumstances allow, sufficiently diversified as respects the descriptions of investment and, where diversification within a particular description would he prudent, as respects investments within that description;
(3) So long as a trustee retains any investment made in the exercise of such a power as aforesaid, he shall obtain and consider such advice as aforesad at such intervals as appear to him appropriate, and in any case at intervals of not more than five years.
3.51 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD LORD CONESFORD moved, in subsection (1), to add to paragraph (a):
"provided that, for the purposes of this paragraph, an investment in an Investment Trust Company or Unit Trust shall be deemed to he an investment in the underlying securities thereof ".
The noble Lord said: My Amendment is not prompted by any objection at all to the policy embodied in Clause 5, subsection (1). I do not question in any way the object of that clause, but I have some doubts whether the words at present in the clause, without some amendment on the lines of my Amendment, will achieve the object which the Government have in mind. Let me explain to the Committee and to my noble friends, very briefly, what my doubt is.
In my speech on the Second Reading I took the example of a very small trust. By the nature of things, it would be unable to have many investments: no competent adviser would advise the

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trustees to have many investments. In such a case, the best actual diversification (to use the expression in subsection (1) of Clause 5) would be achieved by having perhaps a couple of holdings in investment trusts. By that method, an actual diversification would be achieved which would be greater than any that would be obtainable by a number of shares in individual companies. I doubt, however, whether two investments in the same description of investment—that is to say, an investment trust—would in fact be a diversification at all within the meaning of paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of Clause 5. I therefore propose in the Amendment to add to paragraph (a):
"provided that, for the purposes of this paragraph, an investment in an Investment Trust Company or Unit Trust shall be deemed to be an investment in the underlying securities thereof ".
I think the object which I seek to secure by those words is quite clear. I do not think that that object conflicts with any object the Government have in mind, but they may take the view that my Amendment is unnecessary; that the matter is sufficiently provided for by the words as they stand. If they can give me any reason in support of the view that the words are satisfactory as they stand, and that the position of the small trust will be met—that is to say, that, in such a case as I have described, a trustee will be able to invest the whole fund in a couple of investment trusts—by the words as they stand, and that they therefore take the view that my Amendment is unnecessary, I shall, of course, be most happy to withdraw it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 27, at end insert the said words. —(Lord Conesford.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My noble friend Lord Conesford raised this point on Second Reading. He was not quite sure whether a couple of investment trusts would be a "diversification" within the meaning of Clause 5 (1). I replied that, with regard to the point of definition, I would prefer to leave it until later. I am advised that two investment trusts, or even one investment trust, might be regarded as a sufficient diversification, so far as the actual distribution of investments is concerned, though perhaps not with regard to the management. The word "diversification" does not
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signify numbers, but only, I think, width. If I tell my noble friend that I think he is a man of diverse and brilliant character, I do not mean that my noble friend is more than one man; that he is two or three men, or that he has two or three characters. I mean that he has one character which is rich in variety and free from monopoly; and I think that the same applies to an investment trust, which has a wide distribution of investments under this clause.
There is, however, another factor which a trustee should take into account. He should not only have regard to whether it is in one investment trust, or over how many different securities the investment trust has distributed its funds; he should also have regard to the size and management of the company or unit trust when reaching his decision as to the proportion of his funds which he might properly invest in this way. The Bill leaves this to the judgment of the trustees. It does not require that a trustee either shall or shall not treat an investment trust company or a unit trust as a single entity for the purpose of deciding whether or not it provides sufficient diversification. If there is any further doubt as to the meaning of the word" 'descriptions' of investment", I will certainly look into that again. I do not think that there is any doubt about it, but I see my noble friend's point: that there may be a difference between the distribution of investment and the descriptions of investment. I will make quite sure about that.
LORD CONESFORD: I think that in the last words of my noble friend he has got my point clear. My doubt is this. The actual words in the paragraph are:
"…sufficiently diversified as respects the descriptions of investment…"
If the description of investment is investment trusts, and if nothing else except two investment trusts is held, it is rather difficult to see that the investments can be described as "sufficiently diversified as respects the description of investment". That is precisely my doubt. But, on the undertaking of my noble friend, which I take to cover a consideration by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor also, I shall be most happy to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.59 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: This is really an Amendment suggested by my noble friend Lord Polwarth, who has had to go abroad, and who telephoned it to me from Scotland. Naturally, we were not able to discuss at great length the reasons for this particular period of two years rather than five, but I think your Lordships would agree that no conscientious trustee would allow his trust to lie unattended by good advice for as long as five years. In fact, he would probably take advice annually. For that reason, it seems reasonable that the term of two years should be inserted. I know some people would say that one year is the appropriate period but such a provision would sometimes provide unnecessary rigidity. It means one cannot extend the time for an extra month if the usual adviser is away, or something of that sort therefore I think two years is better than one year. Also two years is a great deal better than five years, so I hope Her Majesty's Government will agree to the Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 41, leave out ("five") and insert ("two").—(Lord Hawke.)
LORD KINNAIRD: I should like to say a word or two in support of my noble friend Lord Hawke. I have been a trustee probably longer than most Members of your Lordships' House, but I am sure that most of your Lordships who are trustees were surprised to see the term of five years in the Bill, and I trust the Government will remove it. If there are any lazy trustees, they can probably justify themselves in that the Government's advice to them is that once in five years is often enough. But I think that is very undesirable, and, as Lord Hawke says, that two years is better than five years.
I would suggest that one year is better than two. I do not think that Lord Hawke's problem about rigidity would really make things difficult. The intention is to have something like an annual report. I happen to be a trustee in Scotland as well, and if anyone wonders whether there is any precedent for an annual report I can say that in my country it is a very usual custom. I have made inquiries here, and I think the Public: Trustee will examine accounts annually or oftener. I believe particular
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institutions will examine their appointed trusts at least once in a year or oftener. To leave a term of two years in the Bill might be unfortunate, as well as leaving one of five years, as I hope the Government will agree. I think my noble friend Lord Hawke has difficulty in accepting my Amendment because the noble Lord, Lord Polwarth, is away; but I would appeal to the Government, if I am in order, and to my noble friend Lord Dundee, and to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, to think about the matter again and to accept one year instead of two.
Might I also just mention a matter which is on the same point. There is a sentence in Lord Dundee's speech yesterday which bears on this point and on the question of an annual report being too rigid. The noble Earl said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 227 (No. 21), col. 281]:
"…this Bill is designed to cater primarily for smaller trusts and the many trustees whom it affects will not have access to expert advice of high quality."
I have been a banker, or have been connected with banks, for most of my life, and I should have thought one would query that remark. It is not totally true, is it? Most trustees or executors, when a will is made, will have a banking account, or they should have a banking account. Having got that account, they have the same manager, the same advice and expert opinion, as any larger trust has. I should have thought that all somebody need do to fulfil the obligations of this clause is to ask his bank manager to send him, at least once a year, a report and expert opinion. That can give rise to no difficulty of dates or holding meetings within the Government, and the bank would be responsible to give the trustee, free of charge, expert opinion annually, hope this Amendment will be considered.
LORD SILKIN: I should like to support, very briefly, what the noble Lord, Lord Kinnaird, has just said. I certainly agree that two years is a more appropriate period for review of holdings than once in five years. Indeed, I can see no safeguard for those on whose behalf a trust is held in having a review once in five years. All sorts of things can happen in the intermediate period, and there ought to be an obligation on the part of trustees to have a far more frequent review.

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However, I am wholly in support of Lord Kinnaird that even two years is too infrequent, and that a yearly review is a reasonable period, especially as that can be done without putting any excessive burden on the trustees. Banks are usually prepared to give such a report as that required under the Bill. Indeed, the Bill requires very little that is onerous; it merely requires a trustee to obtain and consider proper advice. It does not even define what that advice is, but obviously, a bank would be quite adequate to give such advice. I believe that in the White Paper it was more closely defined as to whom one ought to go for advice; but I see that that has been rather widened, and it merely states "proper advice", and I think that is quite satisfactory. I think the Amendment is an improvement to the Bill, and I myself would have gone further and supported the noble Lord, Lord Kinnaird, in making it one year instead of two.
4.7 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am very sorry that Lord Polwarth cannot be here to move this Amendment, but I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Hawke, Lord Kinnaird and Lord Silkin, for their advice. On the Second Reading of the Bill, I said that on any trust for which I was responsible I should certainly have a review much more often than once in five years. I think my noble friend Lord Hawke said that all good trustees should insist on a review at least every two years. I would agree that most good trustees on most trusts should; but if you try to apply it to all trusts, you may have some difficulties. For example, the Charity Commissioners have reminded us that there are many small perpetual trusts where the only consideration is the maintenance of income, for which frequent review would be little more than a formality and would involve the trust in unnecessary expense.
Of course, in some ways, the less likely they are to change their investments, the more likely they are to have to pay a fee for professional advice. If it were a trust which was always changing its investments, naturally the broker would give his advice free; but if it were merely a question of looking over the thing and saying, "We do not
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recommend any changes", possibly a fee might be charged. Besides the small charity trusts, as probably we all know, there are very small private trusts, too, whose only purpose is to see that Aunt Mary gets her£400 a year from the Canadian Pacific Railway, or whatever it may be. It might be an unnecessary burden on them to compel them every so often to consult professional advisers as to the condition of the investments.
I should like to do what I can to consider whether the present position can in any way be improved. Of course, the five years in the Bill is intended to be a maximum, a kind of long stop. What we felt was that if we had a period such as two years, there might be more danger of that being regarded as the minimum period at which it was desirable to review investments, whereas it might be desirable to review them every six months. We thought nobody could possibly imagine that five years was anything more than an extreme precaution. But I should like to look at the matter again, with your Lordships' advice.
Possibly the best course might be to omit any mention of a specific period and lay the onus of deciding when to obtain advice fairly and squarely upon the trustees. After all, trustees are not compelled to accept any advice which they get. They are required under the Bill to take advice, without being compelled to accept it. Maybe it would be more reasonable to lay upon trustees the duty of obtaining and considering this advice at such intervals as appear to them to be appropriate, without laying down any period at which they should exercise that duty. But I shall be glad to consider the matter further and hear any further representations from those noble Lords who are familiar with the management of trusts. It is not at all a question of compelling the trustees to do anything. What we want to do in this Bill is to try to persuade trustees to take advice at reasonably frequent intervals. I shall be glad to consider any improvements which noble Lords think may be made.
LORD SILKIN: Would the noble Earl consider the suggestion of having both in the Bill—namely, at such periods as the trustees think right and in any case not less often that a period of two or

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three years. This would not mislead any trustees into thinking that three years, or whatever period is put in the Bill, is the right period, but it would give an indication to them that they must have this review as often as they think necessary.
THE EARL of DUNDEE: But that is in the Bill now. The words
"such advice as aforesaid at such intervals as appear to him appropriate,"
are followed by
" and in any case at intervals of not more than five years."
The question is whether we should put any maximum and, if so, what the maximum should be.
LORD SALTOUN: There is one thing I do not quite understand and should like the noble Earl to explain. Would this period be limited to those trustees who adopt the Act? Surely trustees who put their money into fixed-interest securities, probably irredeemable ones, would not have to adopt this Bill in any case.
LORD HAWKE: I am grateful to my noble friend for his sympathetic reply and because he is going to look into this matter. I think I am justified in pointing out that it is not necessarily a stockbroker who may be asked to give the advice which is required but anybody who is reasonably believed by the trustees to be able to give advice. I would regard many of your Lordships as qualified and able to give such services for nothing. Moreover it seems that one of the trustees can be one of the persons giving advice to his fellow trustees.
The one argument which I did not bring closely enough against the period of one year is that in a small trust it is probably likely to happen that the appearance of the annual accounts is going to be the time for the review of investments. These accounts may be audited by a spare-time auditor or by a very busy firm when it can find a little time to spare and often the accounts come out at irregular intervals. I should not like to put the onus of having an annual review on a trust whose accounts perhaps come out thirteen or fourteen months after the previous accounts. At any rate, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 5 shall be agreed to?
LORD CONESFORD: I only wish to raise one question, having regard to something which has just been said. I should like to hear from Her Majesty's Government whether they agree with the suggestion that the provisions of Clause 5 (1) are not a general addition to the law of the land. I see nothing whatever to confine the words to those who are making use of the particular powers conferred by this measure. It seems to me that the words of the first subsection are not confined in any way to those using the special powers conferred by the Bill. Obviously, this is a question of some importance and I think that we should know what the answer is at some stage.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I agree with my noble friend's reading; indeed, it had never occurred to me to consider that there might be any other interpretation. But I will certainly make sure that we are right.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: I should like to be clear on this point. It would be absurd for the trustees of trusts whose funds are put into gilt-edged securities to go into the investments every two or three years to see whether the portfolio was ample. I should think that what the noble Earl said applies only to cases where the trustees are using this double schedule. Otherwise, I should be strongly opposed to it.
LORD CONESFORD: May I say, in answer to the noble Lord who has just intervened, that I completely agree with him as regards subsections (2), (3) and (4), which are expressly limited to those using the powers conferred by this Bill? What I said was that the duty of trustees in subsection (1) was of general importance.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: That was the question my noble friend asked just now, and I have verified that he is correct. In the other subsections, of course, it is stated that: they apply only to trustees exercising the powers of the Act.
LORD SALTOUN: Subsection (2) says:
"Before exercising any power conferred by section one of this Act to invest in a manner

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specified in Part II or III of the First Schedule to this Act, a trustee shall obtain and consider proper advice…"
and subsection (3) states:
"So long as a trustee retains any investment made in the exercise of such a power…"
I submit that this should go back to subsection (2) and not to subsection (1).
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I think that it does only go back to subsection (2) and not to subsection (1).
LORD SALTOUN: I thank the noble Earl very much.
LORD HAWKE: Presumably that does not stop the Bill putting a general direction on trustees of all trusts to secure that their investments are diversified and suitable.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Subsection (1) applies to all trusts, not only to those which exercise their powers under the Bill.
On Question, Clause 5 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule:
Manner of Investment
PART II
NARROWER-RANGE INVESTMENTS REQUIRING ADVICE
6. In debentures issued in the United Kingdom by a company incorporated in the United Kingdom, being debentures registered in the United Kingdom and not being debentures, which, under their terms of issue, may be converted into shares.
4.20 p.m.
LORD HAWKE LORD HAWKE moved, in paragraph 6, to leave out, "and not being debentures which, under their terms of issue, may be converted into shares". The noble Lord said: I have heard a rumour that Her Majesty's Government might accept this Amendment, and therefore I will postpone wasting your Lordships' time and merely move formally. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 38, leave out the said words.— (Lord Hawke.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: It would not have been at all a waste of time if my noble friend had given his reasons for
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moving this Amendment, because the result of his self-denying ordinance is that I shall now have to give them instead; and I am sure that I shall not do it nearly so well. Convertible debentures are fixed-interest securities which give the holder the option of converting at some future date into equity shares. In view of the ultimate character of the investment it was considered that convertible debentures were more appropriate to the wider-range part of the fund. But whilst they exist as debentures it is not unreasonable to classify them as a narrower-range investment, provided it is clearly understood that when they are converted into equities they must either be sold or be transferred to the wider-range part of the fund. In the latter event a compensating transfer of property would have to be made from the wider-range to the narrower-range part of the fund. Provision for a transfer of this kind has been proposed in an Amendment I moved at our last sitting. Whilst Clause 2 (2) of the Bill will ensure that the understanding mentioned above is implemented, I agree that, subject to that, my noble friend's Amendment is justified, and, as he anticipated, I am willing to advise your Lordships to accept it.
LORD HAWKE: I thank my noble friend.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD CONESFORD LORD CONESFORD moved to add to Part II:
"15. In the stocks or shares of Investment Trust Companies incorporated in the United Kingdom and quoted on the London Stock Exchange."
The noble Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment that we should add a final paragraph at the end of Part II of the First Schedule to provide an additional class of investment that may be made in the narrower-range. The principal defect of the Bill, as it stands, is that what is intended to be the safest of all the funds, that is, those that are put into fixed-interest bearing securities, are actually endangered by What every member of this Committee knows to be a real danger in the modern world—namely, the decline of the currency. If, through rapid inflation, the value of our currency should be threatened, then the whole of the investments invested in the

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securities at present set out in Part II of the First Schedule would decline in value, and their value could vanish altogether. That is the worst defect of the Bill as it stands.
What is necessary in order to abolish what I submit is a fatal defect is to provide at least one class of equity investment in which trustees can lawfully invest the funds even in the narrower range. Investment trusts seem to me the most suitable of all such classes for this purpose. As I think all noble Lords know, they have these, among other, advantages: an excellent record of achievement over the years diversification—and generally a double diversification; a spread of risk that is both qualitative—various different industries—and geographical—interests in various parts of the world; diversification, again, in classes of securities—they hold some fixed-interest bearing securities and some equities—with, of course, complete freedom to manage their funds in the ordinary way as may seem best to their very skilled advisers. Then, again, they have highly skilled and expert managers. Equally important, they have the protection of ample reserves as a buffer against bad times. These reserves result from various features of these companies. In the first place, it is their general practice not to distribute all their earnings. Again, they have the further protection of the reserves held by the companies whose stocks and shares they hold. Lastly, they do not distribute the profits made by the appreciation of their investments, but retain them.
All this gives their securities a value which is likely to be maintained better than the values of most securities in bad times. That is why I think, if we have to select a single class of equity investments, investment trusts have the best claim to be a suitable investment for this purpose. But the main aim that I have in mind is to provide some security in this list which enables a prudent trustee, competently advised, to protect the trust funds in the event of inflation. At present there is none. What every one of us knows to be one of the principal risks to an investment in the modern world is a risk that this Bill, as it now stands, makes it compulsory for the trustees to face without having any weapon whatever against it. They
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simply have to see that part of their funds vanish. In the protection of our own affairs none of us would subject ourselves to such a limitation. Have we any right to do so in the case of trust funds which are of great importance to a lot of people not very well able to protect themselves? Testators and settlors desire to give additional security for the beneficiaries of their trust. It seems to me really immoral that, as regards half the trust fund, we should deny all security against what we all know to be a real risk—namely, that over the years there may be a serious depreciation, and sometimes a rapid depreciation, in the value of the currency.
In case it is objected that this introduction of a whole class is too wide, I would remind the Committee of two things. First, it is, of course, necessary as regards this investment, just as any other, that the trustees should seek advice. But further, if this Amendment: were accepted and the Government thought that it let in too wide a class, there would he no difficulty in amending the Bill further, as I indicated in my speech on Second Reading, enabling an advisory committee to be sot up (I suggested the membership) to advise the Treasury, and the Treasury to prescribe the equity investments to be added in this narrower-range.
So far as I know there are only two ways in which over the years it has been possible to protect trust investments. One of them is, in some such way as I have suggested, by investment in ordinary shares. The other one, of immense importance to this country historically, is by the holding of land. My noble friend the Lord Chancellor, in dealing with an earlier clause, explained why Her Majesty's Government had not included the holding of freehold land as a narrower-range investment. But historically landowning has been the great protection against inflation. Our great educational charities, our schools, our colleges, our universities have been able to expand their activities and functions to meet modern needs only because, on the whole, their investments have in the past been in land and, notwithstanding the long-term tendency of currencies to depreciate, the holdings in land retained or increased their value.
But we are denying to trustees this protection from inflation—namely, the holding of freehold land. That makes it all the more necessary that we should provide some escape, and I suggest that the addition of an appropriate category in this Part of the Schedule will enable us to look with comparative equanimity on what would otherwise be the unfortunate effect of this division under the Bill into these two classes. We ought not to have any class in which the trustees are compelled, against their better judgment and against the advice of their advisers, to watch their funds simply disappear because that is the obligation of the law. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 36, at end insert the said paragraph.— (Lord Conesford.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: In the first Amendment which my noble friend moved to this Bill last week, he proposed that the trustees should be allowed to invest seven-eighths or 87½ per cent. of their funds in equities and only 12½ per cent. in narrower-range investments. This Amendment in effect would enable the trustees to invest not 87½ per cent., but 100 per cent. of their trust funds in equities and a fortiori if we could not accept my noble friend's first Amendment, which I was sorry not to be able to do, we clearly cannot accept his second Amendment, which goes even further in the same direction.
The arguments of my noble friend on every occasion, as I have tried to indicate, nearly amount to saying that trustees ought to be prohibited from putting any of their money at all into trustee stocks. It is indeed an interesting commentary on the investment pattern of the present age that this contention can seriously be put forward. My noble friend said just now that it was a scandalous injury on the beneficiaries of a trust that we should not rescue them from the ruin which they would suffer by having any money in trustee stocks. I think my noble friend said that it was a very wrong thing, and that we had no moral right not to rescue them. Of course, having regard to the change in relative value between trustee stocks and other investments, one can quite see that point. On the other hand, there have been periods, such as the '30s, in which
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the value of investment stocks went down nearly to nothing, even though they were well spread, and possibly some trustees who had established these trusts might not have wished the whole of the funds to be put into equities.
My noble friend's Amendment accepts shares or stocks of investment trust companies incorporated in the United Kingdom to be included in the narrower-range half of the investment. The obvious question arises: how are you to distinguish between one investment trust from another, or are you to put them all in the narrower range, whatever their merits may be? My noble friend's solution of that, which he gave on Second Reading and has partly repeated now, is that he would have an advisory committee on which there might be representatives of such bodies as the Bank of England, the Stock Exchange, the Public Trustee, the Investment Trusts Association and one or two other bodies. But I wonder whether your Lordships do not consider that the Treasury, and all those represented on the advisory committee, might be placed in rather an invidious position in having to distinguish between the merits of different companies. Do your Lordships think it would be desirable for the Government to lend itself to a scheme which would involve a continuous review by such a committee of the affairs of all kinds of companies in the United Kingdom? It seems to me it would come very near to the Government giving market tips.
I would go as far as this in agreement with my noble friend. I will frankly admit that, if I were creating a trust now, I would most certainly give the trustees power, if they thought right, to put all the funds into investment trust companies, and I would not mind preventing their putting any into gilt-edged. But that is my opinion only, and I do not think we can assume that people whose trusts we are now altering, contrary to their express intentions, would have wished us to go quite so far as that. We have assumed that they would wish us to do something, and we have done something. We have released one half of the trust funds from the limitation of the 1925 Act, and in regard to the other half, although we have kept them in the narrower-range securities, we have somewhat limited the kind of investments which are defined in the First Schedule

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into which they can be put. But I am afraid that to accept this Amendment would undermine the whole basis upon which the Bill is drawn up.
LORD CONESFORD: My noble friend is, of course, right that the problem with which I attempted to deal in the first Amendment which stood in my name is not dissimilar to the problem with which I am attempting to deal now. I do not think he is right in saying that the effect of this is even mare extensive than the other, because, of course, investment trusts themselves contain a great many fixed-interest bearing securities. However, I shall not inflict myself for long upon the Committee at this stage. I wish merely to correct what is, although I know that it is unintentional, a complete misrepresentation of my attitude. I am not in the least against gilt-edged investments always and at all times. If I had any trust funds to invest at the present moment, I should do my best to get my fellow trustees to agree that the best investment into which the funds could be put would be a British Government security standing well below par and due to be paid off at par in a few years' time. I am not in the least against gilt-edged securities at all times and in all circumstances. What I do say is morally wrong is not that people should invest in gilt-edged securities, but that trustees should ever be compelled by law to invest their funds in something that is depreciating before their eyes, and that they may believe will lose its value altogether.
If we leave this Part of the First Schedule as it stands, there is no protection whatsoever for this part of the trust funds in the event of a depreciation of the currency. We all know that over the next 36 years, or whatever time elapses before there is another Bill of this kind (that is the period since the last Bill of this kind), there may be a depreciation of our currency. I say that it is morally wrong for Parliament solemnly to ordain, as it will be ordaining by the Bill in its present form, that what is half the trust fund at the time of the division shall be irrevocably lost in such circumstances, whatever the trustees and their advisers may do, by the simple operation of the law, and a law passed in 1961 by a British Parliament.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I quite appreciate the distinction which my noble friend has just drawn between his attitude towards gilt-edged stocks and that which I perhaps unthinkingly attributed to him. I entirely see the reasoning which has prompted that distinction.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: May I ask one question of the noble Earl? Does he really consider that the Government are prepared to do what the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, suggests—namely, allow Government stocks, even if they are undated, to go down in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, to practically nothing? Do the Government consider that they have no obligations? If the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, is to be believed, he anticipates that it is quite likely Government stocks will go down to absolutely nothing. Will not the noble Earl say that in no circumstances will the Government accept a suggestion of that kind?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: When my noble friend said they might go down to nothing I took it he was indulging in hyperbole, without meaning your Lordships to accept it literally. Of course, if you take undated stocks, when prevailing rates of interest are 5 per cent. they may be at one figure, and if the rates of interest go down to 4 per cent. Government stocks are bound to go up, and if the prevailing rates of interest go up to 6 per cent. Government stocks are bound to go down. It would be an enormous, quite unimaginable change that their value should go down to nothing. I think what my noble friend meant was that not only do they sometimes go down but their value in relation to other stocks gets relatively less, owing to the fact that the value of money has declined in this country during the last twenty years. I am sure he did not mean to say that the value of Government stocks might literally go to nil; but that is something that could happen in the case of equities.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: We have seen Government stocks going down and down, and I have constantly pointed out to the Government that this has been due to their own policy of high bank rate. Now we have the suggestion that the figure at which they are standing at the present time may be a high-water mark, and that things will be going

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down and down in the future. I think it is about time the Government gave some hope to holders of Government stocks, who invested in them patriotically, at the request of the Government, that they are not going to be treated in the appalling way the noble Lord suggested. If the noble Earl is not going to make some greater protest against that possibility I think it is a very serious accusation against the Government, of which he is a leading figure.
LORD CONESFORD: Needless to say, that was not my point at all. I was not referring to the market price of stock, a matter on which the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, has so admirably explained his attitude on previous occasions; and I must say that with a good deal of what he has said I had myself the greatest sympathy. I was not referring to the value of Government stocks as measured in their market quotation. What I was referring to was the value of the pound. I am quite certain that any Government which I support, such as Her Majesty's present advisers, will do their best to protect the currency. I am quite certain that would be the intention of any Government the noble Lord opposite would support; I take that for granted. But it still remains a serious thing to enact by law something that makes trustees quite helpless in the event of some future Government behaving less well than he or I would like, and if there were a threat to the currency there ought to be some wise action that trustees could lawfully take.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: With all due respect to the noble Lord—I am sorry to interrupt again, and I will not press the matter further—the logic of his argument is something quite contrary to what he suggests. This Bill is not forbidding trustees to do anything they have had the right to do, anything they could do before. Whether he is dealing with the fall in the value of the pound or with the fall in the value of the market terms of Government securities, the effect is the same. He is inviting persons in the country who have invested their trust stocks in Government securities to consider that they are liable to lose the whole value—not literally, but going down to practically nothing, whether from inflation or
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depreciation of the stock market value; and I suggest that is a deplorable suggestion to come from any Member of your Lordships' House.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Second Schedule agreed to.
Third Schedule [Repeals]:
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Section 11 of the Trusts (Scotland) Act 1921, defines colonial stocks in which trustees may invest. That section is being repealed and re-enacted in the present Bill, for reasons which I explained to your Lordships on Second Reading. Section 2 (3) of the Colonial Stock Act, 1948, makes provision for extending the definition of colonial stocks in the Trusts (Scotland) Act to include stock issued by authorities established for controlling or administering matters of common interest. That is no longer necessary, as stock of this kind is now covered by paragraph 4 of Part II of the First Schedule to the present Bill. Subsection (3) of Section 2 of the Colonial Stock Act, 1948, can therefore be repealed, which is done by this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 37, at end insert—

("12, 13 & 14 Geo. 6. c. 1.

The Colonial Stock Act,1948.

In section two, subsection (3).")

— (The Earl of Dundee.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The effect of this Amendment is to repeal paragraph 9 (1) of the Schedule to the Cyprus Act, 1960, for reasons which I mentioned on Second Reading. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 57, column 3, at end insert ("(1)").—(The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Third Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed.

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL [H.L.]
4.54 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be again in Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.— (The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD AILWYN in the Chair.]
Clause 25:
Short weight, etc.
25.—
(2) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, any person who, on or in connection with the sale of any goods, or in exposing or offering any goods for sale, or in purporting to make known to the buyer thereof the quantity of any goods sold, makes any misrepresentation either by word of mouth or otherwise as to the quantity of the goods, or who does any other act calculated to mislead any person as to the quantity of the goods, shall he guilty of an offence.
(7) Nothing in this section shall apply to any goods or sale falling within paragaph (a) or (b) of subsection (5) of section twenty-two of this Act; and except in relation to—

(a) a sale of goods required by or under this Act to he sold only by quantity expressed in a particular manner; or

(b) a sale of goods in the case of which the quantity of the goods sold is required by or under this Act to be made known to the buyer at or before delivery of the goods to him; or

(c) a sale of goods which are pre-packed or otherwise made up in a container for sale and of which the container is required by or under this Act to be marked with an indication of quantity; or

(d) goods carried for reward which are required by or under this Act to be so carried only in pursuance of an agreement made by reference to the quantity of the goods expressed in a particular manner.

nothing in this section shall apply to any goods if the sale or carriage in question is with a view to the use of those goods—

(i) in constructional work; or

(ii) in the manufacture of, or for incorporation in, goods of a different description,

in the course of the carrying on of a business.
LORD FARINGDON: When the noble Earl moved the adjournment of the Committee stage last night he suggested that there was a change in the type of Amendments from this point. Some of
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your Lordships may have thought that this particular Amendment has a slightly odd look about it. To add the sellers to the buyers would seem an odd proceeding in some ways. The object of most of the provisions of this Bill are, in fact, to protect the consumer or the buyer. But there are a considerable number of transactions where in fact the person to be protected is not the buyer but the seller, where the tradesman is the buyer—these are such sales as the sale of rags or of scrap iron which is sold to an itinerant dealer by the householder. It is for his or her protection that I am moving this Amendment to the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 23, after ("buyer") insert ("or seller").—(Lord Faringdon.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: This subsection was drafted on the assumption that in the overwhelming majority of transactions it will be the seller of the goods who will in practice be responsible for making their quantity known to the buyer and who will therefore be in a position to mislead or to misrepresent. However, we accept that there will be a significant number of cases where the buyer, not the seller, will in practice he responsible for making the quantity known and who will equally be in a position to mislead or misrepresent. As the noble Lord has pointed out, it should be as much an offence for the buyer to defraud the seller as to quantity as it is for the seller, when he is in a position to do so, to defraud the buyer.
I see the merit of the noble Lord's Amendment. I do not think it could be inserted in its present form here. The phrase in lines 22 and 23:
"or in purporting to make known to the buyer thereof "—
refers back to the concepts in lines 21 and 22 of the sale, or the exposing or offering for sale, of the goods; and it will be necessary to expand these concepts to covet purchase as well. But if the noble Lord could see his way to withdrawing the Amendment at this stage, I will consider the matter further with a view to tabling an appropriate Amendment giving effect to his purpose at a later stage.
LORD FARINGDON: I thank the noble Earl very much indeed for his

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reception of this Amendment, and on that understanding I withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD DERWENT LORD DERWENT moved, in subsection (7), to omit all words after the first "Act". The noble Lord said: I am again this afternoon dealing with Lord Jessel's Amendments as he has not recovered. The words to which I object, and which I am trying to take out of the Bill, deprive of the benefits of the exemption mentioned all goods which are, or may in the future be, covered by the provisions either of a Schedule or by an Order or Regulation made under the Act. The Board has already accepted the principle that transactions between manufacturers, and between manufacturers and large consumers, do not require the same control provision as are necessary to give protection to the housewife; and it is difficult to see any logical reason for excluding transactions of this kind merely because they relate to goods which are the subject of provision elsewhere in the Bill.
May I refer your Lordships to the Explanatory Memorandum at the beginning of the Bill, to page iii, Clause 25. In this Explanatory Memorandum it says:
"This general 'short weight' provision applies to virtually all sales in terms of quantity other than sales to persons purchasing goods for a manufacturing, processing or constructional business."
Those are to be exempt. If the clause is allowed to stay as it is, that Explanatory 'Memorandum is complete nonsense and is definitely misleading. So far as I can see, there is absolutely no reason to retain the words which I seek to take out of the Bill, and I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 39, leave out from ("and") to end of line 8 on page 26.—(Lord Derwent.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am sure that in the absence of my noble friend Lord Jessel, your Lordships are indebted to my noble friend Lord Derwent for stating so clearly at such short notice the case for this important Amendment. Its effect would be to render virtually inoperative all the requirements of the Fifth to Ninth Schedules relating to transactions in the goods specified in those Schedules when those goods were
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being sold or carried with a view to their use in constructional work or in the manufacture of other goods. Clause 25, to which the Amendment relates, is the key clause in the structure of these Schedules, because it is the main clause under which an offence arises if there is a deficiency in the quantity, or misrepresentation as to the quantity, of the specific goods which these Schedules require to be sold or carried in terms of quantity.
One major difficulty that this Amendment would cause would be to weaken the protection to the ordinary retail buyer. For example, certain pre-packed goods are required to be marked with their quantity, and when an inspector carries out sample tests at a wholesaler's premises he may find that some of the packs are underweight. The public could be seriously defrauded if these goods passed into the shops; but the inspector would be powerless to take any action if the wholesaler said that those particular goods were intended for sale to an industrial buyer. An easy escape would be opened to fraudulent traders who had defaulted on their obligations under the Bill designed to protect consumers; and the authorities who are responsible for the enforcement of the law could be hamstrung.
The Amendment would also make nonsense of a number of specific provisions in these Schedules, the Fifth to the Ninth—provisions which my noble friend has not yet suggested deleting as consequential to the present Amendment. For example, the Sixth Schedule broadly reproduces provisions governing the sale and carriage of sand and other ballast which have been in existence since the passing of the Weights and Measures Act, 1936, and which both the buyers and sellers in this trade have represented as being of great value to them. The majority of transactions involving the sale and carriage of such goods are, in fact, to those engaged in building and structural engineering work, and the present Amendment would make it virtually impossible for the local authorities to take action if short weight or measure were detected in this trade.
Another point of the same kind would arise on the Seventh Schedule, in respect of sales of solid fuel to the industries which use such fuel, either as a fuel or

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as a raw material. Since the Weights and Measures Act, 1889, was passed, all sales of coal have been required to be by weight, and this Amendment would not only remove a form of protection which industrial buyers have found to be of value since those days but would also make it doubly difficult for the inspectors to continue to give this protection to the householder, since an inspector could never be sure whether or not a particular consignment the weight of which he wished to check in transit was really intended for sale to an industrial buyer.
We are always ready to be sympathetic to those who ask that industry should not be given wholly unnecessary forms of protection under this Bill; and we have, I think, shown that we are trying to meet your Lordships in some respects, and have demonstrated that by the exemption for sales to industrial buyers which are voluntarily conducted in terms of quantity—which sales must surely constitute the great majority of the clay-today transactions in which industrial buyers participate. Where, however, a case has been made out for a particular class of goods to be the subject of a specific requirement in the Bill as to its sale in a particular manner of quantity, we believe that the general exemption for industrial buyers which the Amendment proposes would operate unfairly upon those particular classes of industrial buyers who have represented that they wish to have protection in this respect. Moreover, as I say, we feel that it would detract very seriously from the general value of the Bill as a measure of consumer protection.
LORD DERWENT: That is what comes of moving somebody else's Amendment: I have been accused, for the first time in my life, of trying to hamstring an authority. I will, of course, read what my noble friend has said, and I am very glad, particularly in the circumstances, that he has put his reply so fully. I believe that it boils down to this: that, while I still feel that my case is not a bad one, it is now clear, in view of my noble friend's reply, that the Amendment was drawn far too widely. On the Report stage my noble friend Lord Jessel may well want to put down another Amendment on a much
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narrower line. That is my first reaction; but at the moment I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD DERWENT LORD DERWENT moved, in subsection (7) after "use" to insert "or consumption". The noble Lord said: With your Lordships' permission, I should like to deal with Amendments Nos. 56, 57 and 58 together because they are all on the same subject. If these Amendments are accepted, the exemption will read like this:
"Nothing in this section shall apply to any goods if the sale or carriage in question is with a view to the use or consumption of those goods in the course of the carrying on a business not being a retail business."
The principle behind this exemption has been accepted by your Lordships' House in the Birmingham Corporation Act, 1958, and the object is to avoid imposing unnecessarily onerous and expensive requirements on the manufacturing industry.
The wording of the exemption as at present drafted, without the Amendment, might exclude from the benefit of the exemption a variety of goods which are used in the manufacturing process but do not form part of the manufactured article. Examples of such goods are: explosives used in demolition work or mining, greases, lubricants, catalysts and solvents used in treating trade effluents. All are used in a manufacturing process but are not part of the manufactured product. I believe that will probably be clear to your Lordships. As the Clause is drafted at the moment I believe there is unnecessary hardship on these manufacturing businesses. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 10, after ("use") insert ("or consumption").—(Lord Derwent.)
LORD ST. OSWALD: These Amendments would carry the Bill's exemptions even further than that lately withdrawn by the noble Lord. They would extend them to cover any goods sold with a view to their use and consumption in the course of carrying on a business except where the buyer was engaged in carrying on any form of retail business. In other words, their use would not he restricted to manufacture or

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constructional work but would apply to almost any form of business whatever. Thus many thousands of small farmers and service businesses, from dry cleaners to window cleaners, would be stripped at a blow of all the protection which the Bill gives them against short weight. It would be interesting to know how far such businesses have expressed a will to be free from all protection.
Again, a wholesaler buying from a supplier might be said to be "using" the goods in the course of his business, even though he was selling them to the retailer in exactly the same state as he received them; and the retailer might similarly be said to be using his supplies in the course of his retail business if he was selling them on to the public in exactly the same state as he received them. The Amendment, would, in fact, restrict the protection which Clause 25 confers almost entirely to the final consumer, and would leave both the large and the small retailer and wholesaler to fend for themselves.
At present, the Merchandise Marks Acts, 1887 to 1953, give them a protection against short weight and measure where they have obtained a written statement from their suppliers as to quantity; and it would be a sad commentary upon a Weights and Measures Bill of 1960 if it could not take over this type of protection from the Merchandise Marks Acts in respect of at least a substantial proportion of the everyday trade of the ordinary middleman. Even the manufacturers themselves might not welcome such a wide gap in the law. If a man buys for the office, in the course of business, a box of staples or paper clips which is marked with its quantity but which proves to be seriously deficient in quantity, he tends to feel that "there ought to be a law about it". There will be, as Clause 25 is at present drafted; but with the present Amendment, there would not be.
Indeed, so widespread would become the classes of purchaser exempt that it would be difficult to enforce Clause 25 in the case of goods voluntarily marked with their contents and offered for sale to retail shops, since in many cases they might be bought for consumption in a
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business. Similarly, the subsection as at present drafted would exempt such goods sold in such circumstances where the seller was engaged in any form of business, be it retail or wholesale. The effect of the Amendment would be to render the exemption inoperative where the buyer was engaged in carrying on any form of retail business,
The Government, as is evident from the existing provisions in subsection (7) of this clause, have accepted the undesirability of giving the industrial buyers of raw materials and semi-manufactured goods a protection under Clause 25 against short quantity which they maintain they do not need. But the effect of the present Amendment would be to restore that protection to certain classes of manufacturers who have said they do not want it—namely, the manufacturers who run a retail business side by side with their manufacturing businesses. Cases in point would be the manufacturer or processor who runs a mail-order business, or the factory which has a sales showroom attached to it. Such an ancillary retail business, even though only a side-line to the main manufacturing business, would seem to be sufficient under the Amendment to carry the whole business outside the scope of the exemption in subsection (7). The practical effects of the wording of the Amendment would, therefore, depend quite fortuitously upon whether the manufacturer ran a rein it; and if the primary object is to ensure that the exemption in this subsection covers squarely the ordinary manufacturing and processing business but not the ordinary retail trader, the Government would suggest to the House that the present wording of the subsection, which had precisely this object in mind, is still the best means of achieving it.
LORD DERWENT: I thank my noble friend for his detailed reply. If I may perhaps give a précis of the reply it is the words "too wide". I shall have a look at it and judge with my noble friend a narrower Amendment for the next stage, because I think there is still something wrong, although I agree with a large part of the reply so far as I have had time to study it. In the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 25 agreed to.
Clause 26 agreed to.
Clause 27:
Additional defences and safeguards for traders
27.—
(3) In any proceedings for an offence under this Part of this Act or any instrument made thereunder, being art offence in respect of any excess in the quantity of any goods, it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove that the excess was reasonable and necessary in order to avoid a further offence arising at a subsequent time by reason of the goods having by then become deficient in quantity.
(4) In any proceedings for an offence under this Part of this Act or any instrument made thereunder, being an offence in respect of any deficiency or excess in the quantity—

(a) of any pre-packed goods; or

(b) of any goods which have been otherwise made up in containers for sale, or have been made for sale, or have been sold, and which are required by or under this Act to be so made up or made or to he sold, as the case may be, only in a particular quantity,

the following provisions shall have effect, that is to say—

(i) if the proceedings are in respect of a single article, the court shall disregard any inconsiderable deficiency or, as the case may be, excess; and

(ii) if the proceedings are in respect of one or more of a number of articles of the same kind tested on the same occasion, being articles which, or articles containing goods which, were sold by the person charged or in that person's possession for sale, the court shall have regard to the average quantity of, or of the goods contained in, all the articles tested and generally to all the circumstances of the case.

5.15 p.m.
LORD HAWKE LORD HAWKE moved to leave out subsection (3). The noble Lord said: move this Amendment not because I wish to leave out this subsection—I do not—but to draw attention to one aspect of the Bill and to ask Her Majesty's Government for their explanation of it. As the Bill is drafted, there is an offence created for giving underweight, and penalties are prescribed; but nowhere in the Bill is there mention of any offence for giving overweight. Yet this subsection (3) provides a defence in the event of proceedings for an offence in respect of giving an excess quantity of any goods. I know that in the Merchandise Marks Act, 1953, which prohibits false or misleading trade descriptions, a declaration of weight is, I believe, held to be a trade description,
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but I have never heard of any prosecution of anybody for giving overweight. I wonder why this Bill by inference visualises such an offence. Is it morally right to do so? We are told to give good measure,
"pressed down and running over"
but the moment we start to get "running over" we shall find our way to the courts and be asked if we can plead Section 27 (3) in extenuation of the circumstances. It looks to me as if the butcher who often tempers the wind to the old-age pensioner and gives her 1¼ lb. of stewing steak when she asks for 1 lb. may be guilty of an offence. He certainly could not plead this particular defence, and he would stand to be convicted of undue charity.
Then, finally, when we come to the defence itself, we find that it is to the effect that the person charged has to prove that he gave the excess believing that at some future date his goods would shrink down and slough off the excess. That, of course, would be a perfectly adequate defence in many pre-packed foodstuffs. For instance, Christmas puddings are always packed overweight—and I imagine that many other foodstuffs are, too. But it would not provide a defence to the carbonate drink manufacturer of what I believe in plain language is "pop", who, for technical reasons, always slightly overfills his bottles and could have no possible ground for believing that evaporation could reduce the level, because he has put a sealed cork upon them. It is for reasons such as these that I took the liberty of bringing this Amendment before the Committee to hear Her Majesty's Government tell us what they think about the offence of giving overweight.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 16, leave out subsection (3).—(Lord Hawke.)
LORD SALTOUN: As this is an exploratory Amendment may I ask for clarification, which I prefer to do on this point, rather than on the previous Amendments? Like my noble friend Lord Hawke, I cannot see how an offence could frequently be considered to have been committed by giving overweight, unless it was a chemist giving a poisonous medicine, in which case I suppose it might conceivably happen. But if I understand the Bill rightly (and

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I am ready to believe that I do not), I understand that the principal thing we are doing is relating the unit of length to the wavelength of a certain colour of light, and the unit of weight is not related to that in the way in which units of weight have been hitherto (because water loses so many molecules so rapidly into the atmosphere by which it is surrounded), but is related to a metal weight which is kept near Paris in a velvet box and exposed only very rarely in order to test it and to make certain verifications.
Now if our units are reduced to this very fine standard, what happens if you go into Harrods, as I did the other day, and buy 2 lb. of cheese? It is practically an impossibility that your 2 lb. of cheese will be exactly in conformity with those weights. Such weights are bound to be rough and ready measurements, and, in that case, what becomes of underweight and overweight? I imagine that if I took an action against Harrods because the 2 lb. of cheese that they sold me was not precisely in conformity with the measure that is kept, I believe, at Paris, I should lose my action because nobody would entertain it; but that is an entirely different thing. We are legislating here for a matter of overweight or underweight, and one would really like to know where the offence begins and what the proportions are. They may be in the Bill, but I cannot recollect having seen them.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My noble friend Lord Saltoun need not be afraid that he will have to go to the International Bureau of Weights and Measures in Paris to test his 2 lb. of cheese. For the purpose of this Bill, the immediate legal standard will be that in the possession of the local authority, which is the weights and measures authority for the district. When my noble friend Lord Hawke said that he had never heard of a case of anybody being prosecuted for giving too much, I am afraid he cannot have listened very carefully to the speech of the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition on Second Reading, who described the case of a man known to him who had been prosecuted for selling bread 2 oz. over the prescribed weight.
LORD HAWKE: May I interrupt the noble Earl? I should very much like to know under what Act that particular prosecution was brought. I said under the Merchandise Marks Act. Under what Act was the bread prosecution brought?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: It might be that, or it might be the Sale of Food Act, 1926. Anyhow, it is the law now; and, in this Bill, Clause 23, subsections (1) and (2), enable offences in respect of overweight to be committed. My noble friend asked what the reason was. The reason is not that we want to discourage the giving of a little extra, but in order to protect the public. In certain kinds of goods it is thought desirable that they should be in certain specified weights only—say, 8 oz., 12 oz. or 16 oz.—and that no weights between these specified amounts should be permitted, because, if they were, it would be much less easy for the public to be able to see what they were getting. If they know that there are certain weights at which bread, and other commodities to which these limits apply, have to be sold, and if there is a reasonably large interval between one legal weight and the next legal weight, the purchaser can easily see which he is getting. Moreover, of course, if weights are permitted between these prescribed limits, it becomes much easier for a tradesman to sell a weight which is below and not above what the customer thinks he is getting.
The reason for the law, and the reason why a prosecution may occasionally take place, is not because we condemn the giving of too much weight but because the law, in order to prevent the giving of too little weight, prescribes that only certain weights shall be used in the sale of these commodities, and that no other weights shall be used at all. That was the information which my noble friend asked for, and as I gather from what he said that he has no intention of trying to leave out the subsection, I do not think I need say any more about the actual effect of his Amendment.
LORD LATHAM: In the light of what he has said, would the noble Earl answer this question? Does this subsection (3) do more than make certain defences available to a person who it is alleged has committed an offence in

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respect of an excess? It raises certain defences which I gather are not available to him at the present time under the present law.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: That is quite correct. I did not go into that because my noble friend began by saying that he had no intention of doing what his Amendment proposes to do—that is, leave out subsection (3). What in fact this subsection which the Amendment proposes to leave out does is to enable it to be pleaded as a defence, if a trader is accused of selling overweight, that the overweight is due to a reasonable expectation of loss of weight by the person who packed the article at the time it was packed.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I am much obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, for having put this Amendment down, although he is certainly quite right in not intending to proceed to a Division on this Amendment to leave out subsection (3). I am very interested in this subject, and whilst, of course, we all welcome the approach made in this Bill to provide, as my noble friend Lord Latham has just said, a means of defence in the case of unreasonable prosecution, I do not know whether it is the intention to define this still further by way of Regulations. The subsection says:
"In any proceedings for an offence under this Part of this Act or any instrument made thereunder,…"
which leads us to worry, until we get a further instrument published, as to exactly what the position will be. In the case of bread, the noble Earl was kind enough to refer to my previous comments on an actual case, which I find to be extraordinary on such report of it as was made to me. That was a case in which a loaf of bread was sold at the proper price for the standard weight but which was, in fact, over the weight of that proper standard. But no higher price was charged for it—none at all. Instead of defrauding the customer, it brought him a benefit.
In my youthful days, there used to be a great deal more voluntary attention given to satisfying the customer as to correct weights and measures than today. I remember that I used to help my local milkman in the lunch-hour.
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That was, maybe, 64 or 65 years ago. Then, you had only cans and dippers, you were asked for half a pint (and sometimes, even, for a gill) at the door, and you were trained by the master accepting this schoolboy labour to give the measure and then to put the dipper down again and give a little more to make sure that the measurement was correct. It is only when you come to the really big combinations, apparently, that some of these questions about giving overweight arise. It is as if there is some tremendous suspicion in the mind of the Department that, in the case of a loaf of bread, there are all kinds of new mechanical devices by means of which a loaf of bread can be made to appear to he of a much larger weight than it actually is. I have never been able to understand that sort of thing.
Therefore, whilst I welcome the fact that some sort of alternative defence is to be provided under this subsection, I should like to know, if one is selling a l4 oz. Loaf at the price of a 14 oz. loaf, and with the mechanical means and automatic machinery available to-day for dividing dough and weighing it through, there is some overweight, why there should ever be the slightest desire to prosecute. I am completely unhappy about the answer given by the noble Earl, that it is to prevent fraud, which is really the essence of his answer. Again I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, for moving his Amendment, but between now and the Report stage I shall myself take further advice on this matter as to whether or not we can accept this principle without further explanation.
Perhaps, in the meantime, the Department would be good enough to indicate to the trade whether any possible instrument made thereunder, as expressed, will give proper tolerances in these matters so that there cannot be any dubiety left in the mind of the trader or the customer as to whether or not there is intention to defraud. In the case I quoted, at any rate, there was a prosecution willy-nilly. The defendant society had to pay £3 costs for having done something to benefit the consumer, and I think that is absolute nonsense.
5.31 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: Before the noble Earl replies to my noble Leader, I should

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like to support, as strongly as I can, my noble Leader's plea for a statement by the Government as to the tolerances which they call reasonable. It would seem to me grossly unfair to traders to pass these particular clauses unless we are given an assurance that, at a later stage, something will be said by the Government, or something introduced into the Bill, to give traders an idea of just where they are. Although I was greatly interested in Lord Hawke's reasons (and in fact I guessed them in advance) for moving this particular Amendment, the noble Earl, in replying, laid, as the reason for the retention of this sub-paragraph, the greatest emphasis on the need to ensure that where there were specific weights—8 oz., 12 oz., 1 lb., or something like that—traders should not infringe those regulations by selling intermediate weights. I can well appreciate the reasons for that, and I would, indeed, support them.
But when traders do that—and they are going to do it deliberately—the defence available in this sub-paragraph is not, in most cases, available to them. This particular defence to a charge of selling overweight is almost exclusively for the use of people who have packed overweight because it is known that in a day or two days there will most certainly be a loss of weight in those particular goods. The noble Earl acknowledged that when he said that it was to meet the case where goods are packed overweight because of a reasonable expectation of a loss of weight.
The whole question, as my noble Leader indicated, lies in what is reasonable. As we all know, many commodities consist of 70 per cent. up to 90 per cent. of water, and the packer can pack such commodities to allow for 24 hours' loss of weight, which one would regard as reasonable, expecting the goods to be sold next day. However, in many cases they are not sold for two or three days. They have not necessarily lost condition but they have lost weight, and they will be below weight if the weight is ordered to be marked on the package. Inevitably that would bring a prosecution on the retailer if the goods in question are stamped goods, unless the Government can give an indication of what is reasonable in those circumstances. I do think this particular
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matter cannot be glossed over. It would not be honest to gloss over it, and I hope the noble Earl will say something about it.
LORD SALTOUN: I cannot very well understand how one can sell, say, bread overweight which will lead to the customer's being defrauded because he has received bread overweight, even if his eye is taught to expect too large a loaf. It seems to me that the only thing which might happen in those circumstances is that the seller could be trying to attract custom by selling a larger loaf for the same price as his neighbour, and so, perhaps, be traversing a price-fixing agreement. I think the Restrictive Practices Act has done away with price-fixing agreements, so I am rather puzzled, and inclined to agree with the noble Viscount opposite.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Before my noble friend Lord Hawke says anything more, may I point out that, as the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, said, all that this sub-paragraph does is to enable reasonable allowance for loss of weight to be a defence against a prosecution for selling an intermediate weight between the two legally specified weights. But it is not quite true to say that a prosecution is inevitable. It is not inevitable at all. If the inspector is a reasonable man, he will be aware of the reason why this particular package is a little overweight—that it is because an allowance has to be made. As a rule, inspectors are reasonable and are on fairly good terms with traders, and do not try to bring unreasonable prosecutions. But you must have the safeguard there: that if a prosecution should be brought, such a case will be regarded as a defence.
With regard to the more general question, I do not know how far it arises on this Amendment, but, of course, nobody prosecutes anybody because he has given overweight. The reason why a prosecution is brought is that an article has been made of a quantity which is forbidden by law. The law requires specified weights to be, let us say, either 10 ozs. or 14 ozs. Your Lordships may say the law is wrong to make that requirement, but if the requirement has been made, and if it is illegal to make an article of 12 ozs., intermediate between those two weights I have mentioned, then the law has been broken. It

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is not a question whether you charge a 14 oz. price, in which case you would be charging too much, or a 10 oz. price, in which case you would be charging too little: the offence consists of making an article of a weight which is legally forbidden.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Then does that not make it all the more necessary that this matter should he further considered? I do not think that answers my case at all. We on this side are all in favour of having a clause of this nature in the Bill, because its very infusion at this stage shows that there were unreasonable prosecutions in the past which the new measure wants to try to take care of in some way or other. But is it enough? Does it really give the tolerances with which trades can undertake to agree with the Department, which would enable wastage, and that kind of thing, to be used as a defence to this sort of prosecution? I am asking whether, if there are going to be instruments made under the Bill—such things as regulations covering tolerances, and other matters—we can know about it now, while the law is going through, and then we shall know where we are. I did not gather from the noble Earl that he was willing to consider that point of view and say something to us in The later stages of the Bill.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My noble friend Lord Hawke has an Amendment to one of the Schedules dealing with bread, which suggests a 2 per cent. tolerance, and perhaps it would be more appropriate to deal with these questions when we get to the part of the Bill which provides for that. But I do not agree with the noble Viscount that the clause which we are now discussing necessarily shows that unreasonable prosecutions have taken place. It is a precaution against unreasonable prosecutions taking place under this Bill in future. The fact that the inspector knows that this defence which we are providing is available should, in practically every case, deter him from bringing a prosecution where he knows that the reason for overweight is that an allowance has been made for loss of weight between the packing of the article and its sale.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I hope the noble Earl
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recognises that what he has just said is practically the same as saying that the prosecution I have quoted was correct, that an offence had been committed, but that the prosecution ought not to have been allowed to proceed, as a penalty was incurred. It is because of that very happening that I am pressing the matter so hard, because the case was unjustified.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: With great respect to the noble Viscount, I have no knowledge, except from what the noble Viscount said on Second Reading, of this particular bread case which he has in mind. I would certainly not express any opinion of my own on a judicial decision of that kind. Apart from the fact that I am naturally interested in anything which interests the noble Viscount, I have not the slightest interest in the matter myself one way or the other.
LORD HAWKE: I think we have stirred up something. I would accept the explanation of my noble friend willingly in connection with articles which are required to be of such a specific weight that one size cannot he muddled up with the next size up or down, but it occurs to me that this clause is going a great deal wider and appears to deal with goods mentioned in Clause 24,which deals with the sale of goods by retail which purport to be sold by weight or measure, and I should have thought that that would have brought in the butchers and everybody else. I wonder whether my noble friend would have a look at this clause to see whether he can remove the inference of prosecution from cases other than those where a specific weight is required to be written on the goods. I feel that this is what one might call an officials' Bill. One knows that the tendency of the official mind is to keep the whole population in thraldom, all in a state of having committed offences, but rarely prosecuting. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.41 p.m.
LORD DERWENT LORD DERWENT moved in subsection (4) to add to sub-paragraph (i): "in addition": The noble Lord said: In dealing with this Amendment may I have your Lordships' permission to deal with Amendments Nos. 60, 61, 62, 63 and 65 at the same time, as they all deal with

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the same point? If these Amendments were accepted the two sub-paragraphs of subsection (4) would read:

(i) if the proceedings are in respect of a single article, the court shall disregard any inconsiderable deficiency or, as the case may be, excess; and in addition

(ii) if the proceedings are in respect of one or more of a number of articles of the same kind, being articles which, or articles containing goods which, were sold by the person charged or in that person's possession for sale, the court shall have regard to the average quantity of, or of the goods contained in, a fair sample of all the articles and generally to all the circumstances of the case.

The Hodgson Committee recommended that defences for traders should be strengthened, and it would appear that in this clause the defences for traders have been weakened. These Amendments are designed to ensure that proceedings shall not be brought in respect of a single article where a number of articles are available and that in the case of a single article the court shall be directed to take into account all the circumstances of the case. We believe that neither of these things appears in the clause as now drafted. For those comparatively simple but important reasons we think that the trader should here have greater protection. I beg to move the first Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 35, at end insert ("in addition").—(Lord Derwent.)
LORD SPENS: I do not know whether it would be convenient to your Lordships to discuss my Amendment at the same time. It is directed to the same anticipated hardship on traders, although it treats it in a slightly different way. The existing law, which is contained in the 1926 Act, specifically directs that, after there has been a test of a number of goods on sale or offered for sale at the same time, the court shall have regard to the average weight or measure of a reasonable number of other articles of the same kind offered for sale at the same time. The clause, as it is at present worded, gives a direction only that
"the court shall have regard to the average quantity of, or of the goods contained in, all the articles tested…"
It says nothing about the rest of the articles to which the court were expressly directed to have regard under existing legislation. It leaves that out altogether.
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May I take the case with which I am most familiar? Suppose there is a load of 300 milk bottles and that an inspector comes along and picks out, we will say, 10 which he thinks may be deficient in some way. If he tests them and finds, we will say, that 25 per cent. are defective, all that the court can direct its mind to, under this clause, is the result of the test of those 10 bottles. It is true that the clause end with the words, "and generally to all the circumstances of the case". Would this, in the defence which has been constantly used in these cases on behalf of traders, in which they say that only a small percentage of the total load has been tested, enable the court to have regard to the fact that there are 290 bottles which have not been tested and against which nothing has been said by the inspector? Time after time that has been a defence which has mitigated any adverse deductions which the court can draw merely from the bottles tested.
Now we have this new wording, and I think he would be a bold man who would say that an argument to the magistrates that Parliament had deliberately altered the wording and the directions given to the court about what they shall consider may not result in the magistrates' saying that they must not have regard to the fact that these 10 bottles were only part of a load of 20 or of a load of 300, and very different deductions might be drawn from that fact. My Amendment really reinstates as a direction to the court that, in addition to the result of the test, the court must also have regard to
"a reasonable number of articles of the same kind in that person's possession for sale or delivery on the same occasion,"
If this wording is accepted, there can be no doubt at all that the court can take into consideration not only the result of the limited number tested but also the proportion that that number bears to the total amount offered for sale at the time.
LORD BURDEN: May I say a word in support of the case made out by the noble Lord, Lord Spens? As he rightly says, this clause makes a substantial change in the existing law. As the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, has pointed out, it goes against the recommendation of the Hodgson Committee, and I think that

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the Government ought to give substantial reasons why they are making this change. It is for the Government to give evidence that the existing law has proved inadequate to deal with such cases. From my experience as a local councillor, the existing law has never prevented weights and measures inspectors from taking action which they thought necessary. Surely, while in this Bill we want to catch the dishonest trader we do not want to harass unduly the honest and decent trader because of perhaps one mistake. I think that this protection is accorded by taking the result of the average in regard to a number of single articles which he may have on sale at the Same time.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: As these Amendments are largely of a legal nature I have some slight diffidence in replying to all of your Lordships who have spoken to them, but I should like to try to meet the wishes of your Lordships in this matter. The wording in the Amendment of my noble friend Lord Spens follows that in the corresponding safeguard to traders in Section 12 (1) of the 1926 Act. But that Act does not contain the provision which is contained in this Bill about the court having regard to the average quantity of all the articles tested by the inspector. I think our intention was to provide a safeguard which went wider than that in the 1926 Act by requiring the court to have regard to the entire number which that inspector had in fact tested. Under the 1926 Act the inspector could test 20 out of 50 similar articles on the trader's shelves, and finding that 10 of them were under weight he could bring proceedings solely on those 10, which could certainly be regarded as a reasonable number, in the circumstances. But he was not required to divulge to the court his findings about the other 10 which might have been perfectly all right.
Under this Bill, as it stands, he will have to lay before the court details of the full 20 tests, and the safeguard in that respect will thus go further in protecting the trader than the 1926 Act did. But what I think the Bill in its present form fails to do, and what I do not think the noble Lord's Amendment would do, is to require the inspector positively to take a reasonable number of tests in the
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traders premises—"a reasonable number" meaning not a certain number all on one shelf, but a fair cross-section of other articles on other shelves, to make sure that they have not been arranged for the purpose of the inspection. I think he ought to be required to do that, and that possibly the most appropriate place to insert a provision of that kind would be either in art earlier clause or in Clause 30 of the Bill.
I should like to look at this point, if the noble Lord will agree, and bring in an Amendment which will be designed to give the full protection which all your Lordships who have supported these Amendments wish to give to the trader, by ensuring that the case should rest on a reasonable number of tests and not only on either one or two, or a large number, which for some reason, such as of being in the same lot, may be an unfair sample of what the trader has in his stock.
LORD SHEPHERD: May I say that I thoroughly agree with what the noble Earl has said? I should like him to go one stage further for the trader's protection. If the trader's goods are inspected and there is a shortage of weight or measurement on certain items, and the inspector inspects a few more and there is still some deficiency, if the trader feels that his stock overall is not of that standard he should be able to ask the inspector to carry out, say, a survey of at least 50 per cent. of the mechandise. If the inspector has the right to weigh as much as he likes, if the case is going to be based on what is the average, I think the trader should have the right to expect the inspector to weigh or measure a fair percentage of his total stock. In other words, the trader should have the opportunity of requesting the inspector to survey as much as the trader wishes.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: If I have understood the noble Lord rightly, that is exactly what I wish to try to do. Anyhow, I will look at the OFFICIAL REPORT of what he has said, and will certainly bear it in mind.
LORD SILKIN: I hope that we shall not make this Bill quite unworkable. This is a Bill for the protection of the consumer and not particularly for the protection of the trader. Nobody wants to do an injustice to the trader, but we

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are here to protect the consumer. If a burden is placed upon the inspector of having to examine an abnormally large number of articles, as might happen in a large store, he might have to spend possibly a whole day inspecting something at the request of the trader. That would make the thing unworkable. I would much rather have some general wording than any specific quantity. I hope the noble Earl will try to hold the balance between the trader and the consumer.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The slight difference of emphasis between the noble Lords, Lord Silkin and Lord Shepherd, illustrates the difficulty we have in doing the right thing. We will certainly do our best to achieve the best available balance.
LORD STONHAM: When the noble Earl is giving consideration to this matter, will he consider whether one possible way of handling it would be to give some definition of what in the Bill is called "inconsiderable deficiency". Clause 27 (4) (b) (i) says:
"If the proceedings are in respect of a single article the court shall disregard any inconsiderable deficiency or, as the case may be, excess."
If the traders have what the Government regard as an inconsiderable deficiency ", and we had that defined, it would take us a much longer way along the road to understanding.
LORD SPENS: In regard to the noble Lord's last remark, it is what the court considers an "inconsiderable deficiency", not what the Government consider. It is an offence when the trader gets before the court.
LORD STONHAM: I was hoping to save the courts a lot of trouble.
LORD SPENS: With regard to the main point, I am very glad to hear what the noble Earl has said. I took just the other view from that he has indicated: that in fact the clause was cutting down the existing safeguard for traders. I gather that the noble Earl agrees that the existing clause is not very satisfactory in the way it is at present worded—there are difficulties about it—and it is only right that what was intended, and what I understand is still intended, should now be made intelligible. It is the one clause in the Bill
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to safeguard traders; all the rest of the Bill is for the benefit of consumers. I think the traders deserve one clause for their protection, and they deserve a clause which is reasonably clear.
LORD DERWENT: I am not a lawyer, but it seems to me that what has happened in this case is that the trader has been given a little extra but, owing to rather doubtful drafting, has had taken away a little of what he had before. However, I am quite happy to leave it in my noble friend's hands. If we do not like his Amendment, thank Heaven! the next one will be a Government Amendment and we can pull it to bits. But I do not think it should be difficult for a skilled draftsman to draft now that we are apparently all on the same side. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.0 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: This is a horrible looking Amendment, but it is quite simple to explain. There appears to be no reference anywhere in the Bill to the checking of the volume of liquid by reference to temperature. A drop in temperature between the time when the liquid is despatched and the time it is delivered means a reduction in the volume of the liquid, though the weight remains the same. This Amendment is trying, in effect, to give a yardstick, so that with this decrease in volume, which is bound to take place with a lowering of temperature, both the inspector and the trader can know if the decrease in volume is due to temperature and not to short weight. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 43, at end insert—
("() In any proceedings for an offence under this Act or any instrument made thereunder being (i) an offence in connection with any deficiency or excess in the measurement by capacity of any article or (ii) an offence in connection with the testing of any equipment used for the measurement by capacity of any article the prosecution shall produce evidence of the temperature of the article at the time of the alleged offence and it shall be a defence in addition to and not in derogation from any other defence provided by this Act for the person charged to prove that the alleged offence was due to the difference between the said temperature and the temperature producing the density of distilled water described in Part IV of the First Schedule of this Act under the conditions therein set out".)—(Lord Derwent.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I do not think my noble friend meant to suggest, in moving his Amendment, that in the case of smaller flowmeters or petrol measures the present methods are unsatisfactory. They have worked very well. The inspectors' standards are made of metal. They may have different co-efficients of expansion, but at any rate with the normal variation of temperature which we get in this country errors due to the difference will be small. Inspectors have been testing deliveries of various liquids from kerbside flow-meters for a long time, and no suggestion has previously been made that provisions of the kind referred to in the Amendment were at all necessary. If they had been, the Board of Trade would have taken steps to meet the situation by means of regulations.
My noble friend may perhaps be thinking that hitherto inspectors have been concerned only with comparatively small quantities of liquids and small flow-meters, whereas under this Bill they may be called upon to test bulk deliveries where temperature differences might possibly make some appreciable difference in volume or measure. If this is so, I shall be glad to consider any evidence as to the need for provisions of this kind which could involve the preparation of correction tables for use by inspectors, or even prohibition of testing otherwise than under temperature-controlled conditions. But I think this matter ought to be considered in connection with the regulations which the Board will, in any case, have to make before the appropriate Parts of the Fifth to Ninth Schedules come into operation. That would be a more appropriate method of dealing with it than altering the wording of the Statute itself.
LORD DERWENT: If I understand my noble friend aright, if evidence is produced and he thinks, or between us we think, the evidence is good enough and that there ought to be a clause in the Bill, we could draw a clause and put it in. But if we do not want to do that, then he thinks it can be dealt with under regulation. I think that is the gist of his remarks.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: May I make it quite clear? I do not think it would be appropriate to put a clause in. What I was saying was if we had the evidence
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that it would be necessary, then the Board, in the regulations which they would make before the date at which this Bill comes into operation, would take account of that.
LORD DERWENT: I am obliged to my noble friend. I understand his point of view, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD HAWKE LORD HAWKE moved to add to the clause:
"() In ascertaining the weight of any goods for the purposes of any proceedings for an offence under this Part of this Act or any instrument made thereunder, being an offence in respect of any deficiency or excess in the weight of those goods, the moisture content normally present in goods of the same class or description under normal conditions of temperature, atmospheric pressure and humidity shall be included; and in ascertaining for the purposes of this subsection the moisture content normally present in goods of any class or description, regard may be had to the provisions of any British Standard for the time being relating to goods of that class of description."
The noble Lord said: My noble friend Lord Barnby much regrets that he is unable to be present to move his Amendment. The Amendment deals, broadly, with goods which have a highly hygroscopic nature—that is to say, absorbing and losing moisture by evaporation dependent on temperature, humidity, and so on. Naturally, their weights are vitally affected at the point of sale. The manufacturer can be held to supply a sufficient weight to take account of this, and in the defence against a charge of underweight he has to show that he took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid the commission of such an offence. That might not be very difficult in the case of certain goods, but in other goods, particularly those my noble friend had in mind, such as woollen yarns, where there is a considerable degree of hygroscopicity, it is difficult to ensure a standard. A manufacturer, for instance, might be spinning in a period of great wet in the north of England, knowing perfectly well that his goods were going into a drought-stricken south-east England, and likely to stay there some time before sale. Could it be said that the resulting loss in weight was through lack of reasonable care to ascertain what that loss of weight was likely to be?
In the Amendment, we substitute some sort of standard in the matter. If there is any shortage of weight, then in ascertaining the amount of the shortage, you must compare the moisture present with what is normally present in goods of the same class or description under normal conditions of temperature, atmospheric pressure and humidity; and, where there is a British Standard for the time being, regard must be had to any provisions of that standard. I understand that the people who spin yarns are rather anxious about this point, and I hope that Her Majesty's Government will give the Amendment sympathetic consideration. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 43, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Hawke.)
LORD ST. OSWALD: In the last two Amendments we have gone from temperature to moisture content, and the two noble Lords sitting behind me seem to be saying that if it is not heat it is the humidity which bedevils the trader. I myself live in the same part of the world as the noble Lord, Lord Barnby, who put down this Amendment, and I am fully sympathetic to the problems of the wool textile trade. But this Amendment introduces considerable practical difficulties by being based upon the concepts of "normal" conditions of moisture content, temperature, humidity and so on. It is not easy to see how the prosecution, the defence and the courts could agree upon what should be regarded as normal "for this purpose. However, on the substance of the Amendment, it appears either to be unnecessary, in view of the defences and safeguards already set out in Clause 27, or else, if it is designed to give traders a wider sanction than those defences allow, to be liable to weaken seriously the protection of the consumer.
Subsection (2) of Clause 27 gives the trader a defence if his goods lose weight for any reason for which he could not make reasonable allowance at the time when determining the quantity to be declared by him in respect of them. For example, it defends the trader where there is an unexpected and exceptional evaporation loss, if he can prove to the court that he had made a reasonable allowance for the normal and expected
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evaporation loss when marking the weight on the container. This defence would appear to meet satisfactorily one aspect of the matters touched on in the Amendment. If, however, my noble friend is suggesting that there should be a defence, based upon some concept of "normal" conditions of moisture content, humidity and so on, for a trader who marks a pre-pack with a weight which he knows may not be correct by the time the goods reach the shops, then the Government must declare their belief that this would strike at the very roots of the protection this Bill attempts to give the public.
Again, subsection (3) of Clause 27 gives the trader a defence if his goods gain weight unexpectedly during distribution. An offence of giving excess weight can, of course, arise under the Bill only in respect of those limited classes of goods which are required to be pre-packed or made for sale in a range of specified weights only. However, for this limited class of goods the defence in subsection (3), which still stands, despite my noble friend Lord Hawke's efforts to do away with it a few minutes ago, should meet the other aspect of the matters touched on in the Amendment. This is because an unexpected gain in weight could equally well be followed, still before the goods reached the shops, by a corresponding reduction in weight, if the temperature or humidity conditions changed back again; and the trader should easily be able to establish that it was reasonable and necessary for him to pack the amount of goods that he in fact did, in order to avoid the quantity becoming deficient at any subsequent time.
If the noble Lord is suggesting that a trader, knowing perfectly well that one or other of these limited classes of goods inevitably gains weight on its way to the shops, should have a defence based on some concept of "normal" conditions which were different from the conditions which would obtain at the time of retail sale, then his Amendment would undermine the protection given to the public by the requirement to pre-pack in specified weights only. This again the Government could not accept. If the noble Lord refers to semi-processed or other goods being sold to a manufacturer, I would point out that the short-weight provision of Clause 25 will not "bite"

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anyway, due to the exemptions under subsection (7) discussed earlier.
LORD HAWKE: Would the noble Lord say something about British Standards, which are mentioned in the Amendment.
LORD ST. OSWALD: I should like to look at the noble Lord's suggestion on standards. I am afraid that I am not in a position to say anything about it at the moment, but I will contact my noble friend later on the point be raised.
LORD HAWKE: I was interested to hear my noble friend's explanation, and I am glad to hear indirectly that the offence of giving overweight happens only in the case of pre-packed goods. We might have heard that earlier, I think. The spinners, particularly of woollen yarns, will read his reply with interest and we shall be able to see at the next stage of the Bill whether they consider they will have adequate defence against the variations of our climate.
6.13 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: May I put one point to the noble Lord. He said—and I agree—that there could be no defence when a trader, at the time the goods reach the shop, marks with a weight which he knows may not be correct. Everybody would agree that would be an offence which should be punishable. I should like him to deal with the point which was made in regard to wool textiles (and they are not the only goods with which it can occur), that the inspector does not necessarily call at the moment when the goods reach the shop. He may call days after, and the trader, the processor or the packer, cannot possibly know the conditions of humidity and so on at the time of sale. He cannot possibly know precisely when the goods are going to be sold, and therefore he cannot guard against continuing losses of weight in those kinds of goods where loss is continuous through evaporation. He can pack in such a way that at the time the goods reach the shop they are the correct weight, but he cannot—and no one can—guarantee that at the time and place they are sold they will be the correct weight.
It therefore seems to me that Lord Hawke's suggestion could be of very considerable value. And surely it is a safeguard that should not be dispensed with simply because it may he somewhat difficult of application. After all, if
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it is just that this should be considered, the mere difficulty of application of this safeguard should not apply. I would ask the noble Lord, therefore, to realise that it is not only the moment the goods reach the shop that matters; it is also the moment when the inspector calls to look at them. And, in my view, Clause 27 does not in all circumstances provide an adequate safeguard to the trader.
LORD ST. OSWALD: As often before, the noble Lord baffles me with science. As I understand it, this loss of weight through evaporation is not a continuous process which goes on ad infinitum. As I understand it, when the weather changes the substance can gain weight again. The picture he has given is of a substance, such as a textile, losing weight continuously and never gaining weight. I will naturally, as always, look with great interest at what he said, and I will take it up with those who know a great deal more about it than I do. But my first reaction to his remarks is that this is not, as he seemed to describe it, a continuous process.
LORD STONHAM: I was not trying to baffle the noble Lord with science, because I am not scientific. But perhaps he will accept that if goods have a high moisture content and go from a humid atmosphere into a dry atmosphere they must lose more weight on the second day than they lose on the first; that is perfectly obvious. Will he, in his consideration of these matters, consider not only wool textiles but the vast range of other commodities which do lose weight by evaporation the longer they are kept, because they are the ones about which traders are mostly concerned?
LORD ST. OSWALD: I have a more precise answer to the noble Lord. If the goods are short when found in the shop the inspector first considers whether the shortage occurred in the shop. If so, the shopkeeper has committed an offence. If it was the packer's responsibility, Clause 28 enables the offence to be taken back to the packer, so that the loss of weight is not considered as if it must have happened entirely in the shop. It is taken into account that the process may have started from the packing stage.
LORD STONHAM: Can the noble Lord say bow the inspector knows whether the loss of weight occurred

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before or after the goods reached the shop?
LORD ST. OSWALD: Presumably he cannot say by looking at them, by a spot judgment. He has to look into the circumstances—the date when they were packed, the distance they have travelled and various other circumstances. That is my own impression.
LORD HAWKE: I think the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, has made the point very much better than I could have done. I would emphasise that the point the spinners fear is that their goods may be put in a shop window, exposed to violent sunshine and lose weight very heavily, in which case they would be held to blame; and that is why the question of the British Standards specification comes in with particular reference to that type of goods. My noble friend has promised to look into this British Standards specification, and I hope that he may be able to provide a defence based on those lines for goods which have such a specification of moisture content et cetera. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 27 agreed to.
Clauses 28 and 29 agreed to.
Clause 30 [Special powers of inspector with respect to certain goods]:
6.19 p.m.
LORD LATHAM LORD LATHAM moved, in subsection (1) (a), after "sale" to insert:
"or carried on any vehicle or otherwise for delivery on sale".
The noble Lord said: I rise to move Amendment No. 67A. It may be to the convenience of your Lordships if the next three Amendments are taken at the same time, as they all run together and with the first. Clause 30, as your Lordships will know, provides for special powers of the inspector with respect to certain goods, and the Amendment on the Paper is to close what is thought to be a gap in the language of the clause as appearing in the Bill. It will be observed that the goods may not be offered or exposed for sale, but may be inside a vehicle and subsequently sold during the course of the vehicle's journey. This applies particularly to coal. As I have said, the Amendments are intended to
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cover such circumstances or such a situation. As at present drafted, if the coal dealer is carrying coal which has not been ordered but which he may dispose of during the course of his round, it would seem to me that the clause does not apply, and it is important that it should apply. I ask the noble Earl whether this obvious gap can be closed. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 25, after ("sale") insert the said words.—(Lord Latham.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The words which the noble Lord, Lord Latham, proposes to insert, "for delivery on sale", are a term which is used in the Weights and Measures Act, 1889, in relation to transactions in coal, which he particularly mentioned in his remarks; and it means delivery to the buyer in pursuance of a sale to him—that is to say, where the goods are sold to him and have been appropriated to that purpose. In this Bill the same language is not used. I have looked carefully at the noble Lord's Amendment. It seems to me that, although the Bill does not repeat these words, it uses words which cover the same circumstances—for instance, paragraph (a) of subsection (1) covers "any goods offered or exposed for sale". If the goods are being offered or exposed for sale when they are being carried on a vehicle—for example, coal sacks on a hawker's car—this paragraph covers them already, and I do not think there would be any need to mention a vehicle specifically.
LORD LATHAM: May I intervene on that point? What happens if it is a closed vehicle? The coal is not then exposed for sale.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I think that the paragraph covers them already—"any goods offered or exposed for sale." I do not think that there is any need to mention a vehicle specifically, because, by definition, the goods cannot yet have been sold; there cannot be any "delivery on sale" which would be relevant to this paragraph. Paragraphs (b) and (c) of this subsection both specify goods "in the course of delivery to the buyer." I think that fully covers "delivery on sale" and" carriage for delivery on sale" whether the vehicle is open or closed. I think the point is covered already.
LORD LATHAM: The noble Earl said that the language of an earlier Statute had been abandoned and new language incorporated in this Bill. Was it the case, then, that the language of the earlier enactment was regarded as being unsatisfactory; and, if so, in what respect? I would point out that coal which is in a closed van is not only not exposed for sale, but is not necessarily offered for sale.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: It is being carried. Paragraph (c) specifies goods "in the course of delivery to the buyer." I think that covers goods in a closed vehicle. As for the language of the 1889 Act, with particular reference to coal, I did not suggest that the words had been unsatisfactory. What I think is the case is that the new wards in the Bill are a little more satisfactory.
LORD SHEPHERD: Can the noble Earl give me an explanation? Suppose coal has been ordered for delivery and is being delivered to the consumer's house by a vehicle. Have the goods at that stage been sold, or are they on offer? The point that I am trying to raise in support of my noble friend is that if those goods are on the vehicle and the customer complains and is fortunate enough to get an inspector to come and inspect the goods, as the Bill is now before us I imagine that he could not examine and weigh those goods on the vehicle. I should have thought that if my noble friend's words were inserted it would then be possible, if the consumer raised an abjection and was fortunate enough to get an inspector to came and weigh the goods, that those goods could be weighed on the vehicle and it could be established whether an offence had been committed.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I will look into that point, but it does not seem to me that the words of the noble Lord's Amendment would give any greater protection than those already in the Bill. Where coal is travelling in a closed vehicle to a place at which it is to be sold, it is in the trader's possession or charge for sale and is covered by Clause 30 (1) (c). If it has been ordered already by telephone I do not think the sale has yet been concluded.
LORD LATHAM: I should like to make this point. It is unimportant as
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to whether, in this connection, the words suggested in my Amendment are no better than those in the Bill. The point is, are the words in the Bill satisfactory to close this gap which can give rise to abuse and avoidance? That is the point.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: That is exactly what I have been trying, I know in a most inadequate way, to convince your Lordships of for the last ten minutes.
LORD LATHAM: Would the noble Earl be good enough to look into the matter in order to make assurance doubly sure? In the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD LATHAM: The purpose of this Amendment is to enable the inspector to secure the co-operation of the persons in charge of goods under the terms of the clause, and to strengthen the language of the clause. Obviously, if such persons are difficult, the inspector may be unable to perform his duties under the clause, and it is thought to be desirable that he should be able to rely upon authority such as that which would be given to him by the words of this Amendment. When considering this Amendment I thought that perhaps Clause 49 might provide the additional powers, but I am not satisfied that it does, and I think it would improve the Bill if the Amendment were accepted. I hope that the noble Earl may find himself able to do so. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 31, line 9, at end insert ("and such person shall afford the inspector such facilities and assistance as he may reasonably require for these purposes").—(Lord Latham.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: This Amendment relates to subsection (l) of Clause 30 which is concerned with specifying the special powers given to inspectors to enable them adequately to enforce the provisions in Part IV of the Bill relating to transactions in goods and in particular with empowering the inspector to weigh or measure the goods, to weigh their containers and, if necessary, to break open any containers in which goods are packed; and the Amendment seeks to insert in this clause an obligation upon the trader to give the inspector reasonable facilities and assistance for these purposes.

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The noble Lord, Lord Latham, was good enough to consider whether this might already be covered by Clause 49. I would not say it was, but I would submit to your Lordships and the noble Lord that it is fully covered by the following clause (Clause 50) which deals with the question of assistance which the trader should be obliged to give the inspector for these purposes. Subsection (1) of that clause makes it an offence wilfully to obstruct an inspector or to fail wilfully to comply with any requirement an inspector may properly make in the execution of his duties under Clause 30 and, without reasonable cause, to fail to give the inspector such other assistance as the inspector may reasonably ask of him in carrying out his duties under Clause 30, or, indeed, under any other clause in the Bill. I believe those provisions in Clause 50 appear to meet fully the objective of the noble Lord.
LORD LATHAM: I am much obliged to the noble Earl. I agree that the words referred to in Clause 50 meet the point I had in mind. The noble Earl will not be unaware that there is another Amendment dealing with Clause 50 in another connection; but, having regard to the provisions of that clause in relation to the point I have just made, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 30 agreed to.
Clause 31:
Powers of inspector with respect to certain documents.
31.—(1) An inspector, subject to the production if so requested of his credentials, may require the person in charge of any document required by or under this Part of this Act to be associated with any goods to produce that document for inspection.
LORD LATHAM LORD LATHAM moved in subsection (1) after "document" where that word occurs a first time, to insert "relating to quantity". The noble Lord said: Clause 31 deals with documents, and this first Amendment has for its purpose a strengthening of the provisions of the clause; and the further Amendment will do likewise. Clause 31 enables an inspector to require the person in charge of any document required by or under Part IV of the Act to be associated with goods to produce the
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document for inspection, or to seize and detain it if it contains a false statement, or to endorse it with particulars of the inaccuracy. The requirements for documents to be associated with goods relate only—and this is important—to such goods as are specified in the Fifth to Ninth Schedules of the Bill.
There are, however, many common transactions in terms of weight, measure or number in goods not included in these Schedules. Among such transactions are the sale of screws, normally sold by the gross—and I should imagine that the demand for screws has very sensibly increased recently as a result of the expansion of the "Do it yourself" doctrine. Then there are organic fertilisers which are sold in a bag by weight. I should think that the growth of interest in gardens, with the stimulus of chemical manufacturing companies, has certainly increased the demand for, and the sale of, organic fertilisers. There are sheets and blankets which are sold by measure, as are carpets. There are blocks of ice sold by weight and clothes lines sold by length. On the occasion of the Second Reading of this Bill I gave the House an instance of shortage in length of certain clothes lines in respect of which a trader was successfully prosecuted.
Since the giving of short weight or short number or the making of misrepresentation in respect thereof is to be a general offence, it is considered that the powers of any inspector of weights and measures in relation to documents should be extended so as to cover any document relating to goods, irrespective of whether or not the goods are scheduled. The purpose of the Amendment is to extend the power of the inspector and therefore the protection which will be given to the consumer. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 31, line 43, after ("document") insert ("relating to quantity").—(Lord Latham.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: This Amendment and the next relate to subsection (1) of Clause 31 which as at present drafted, gives inspectors of weights and measures certain special powers to examine, and if necessary to seize or endorse, any documents which are specifically required by the Bill, or by orders made under Clause 22, to be associated with particular classes of goods and to

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be delivered to the buyer. The nature of the documents which are required under the Bill to be associated with goods is fairly precisely defined. The most general class of such documents is dealt with in Clause 24, which prescribes a simple statement in writing as to the quantity; slightly more elaborate forms of document are prescribed in the Sixth and Seventh Schedules, which require certain additional information to be inserted, such as the name and address of the buyer and seller and the precise nature of the goods to which the documents refer.
The present Amendment would, however, confer upon inspectors of weights and measures the power to examine and seize any other documents which the person concerned happened to be carrying at the time and which related to the quantity of the goods, irrespective of whether these documents were intended to be delivered to the buyer. This would enable inspectors to seize documents in the possession of a vanman which are intended purely for internal business use by the seller and which the seller was not required under the Bill either to carry with the goods or to deliver to the buyer. Documents of that kind could, by chance, be in his or his vanman's possession when the inspector met him. If noble Lords take the view that the nature of any of the documents required by the Bill to be associated with particular goods is inadequately defined, or if they doubt the inspectors' ability to obtain copies of records kepts at public weighbridges, the Government will be glad to consider on their merits any suggestions for any Amendments designed to remedy such deficiencies; but we cannot accept a proposal on the lines of the present Amendment which would confer upon inspectors such a very sweeping and arbitrary power.
LORD LATHAM: Apparently I did not make it clear that the Amendment does not relate to the type of documents but to the goods in respect of which, under my Amendment, there must be or would be documents. Our complaint is that there are goods which I cited, and many others, which are exempt from the provisions, whether in the clause or in the Fifth to Ninth Schedules. The purpose of this Amendment is to bring all goods within the obligations of documentation. That is quite different, as I
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understood it, from the point the noble Earl was answering. He was answering a case I have not put up yet.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: It is not a question of the goods but of documents, because the Amendment empowers the inspector to take possession of any other documents relating to the quantity of goods. That would include documents of all kinds which relate to the quantity of the goods but which the seller is not required by law to carry and which he did not intend to deliver to the buyer. There might be correspondence of all kinds, or catalogues which relate to the quantity of goods but which are a private affair between the sellers and agents, which are not intended to be delivered to anybody else and which are not required under this Bill to be delivered. The effect of the Amendment would enable the inspector to take possession of documents of these kinds. We think that this is too sweeping a power. We are willing to consider any deficiencies in the existing provisions of the Bill, which clearly defines the kind of document of which the inspector is able to take possession.
LORD LATHAM: We are not ad idem. There are certain cases in respect of which documents can be prescribed under the Fifth to Ninth Schedules. I am not suggesting that with regard to those goods there will be additional documentation. What the Amendment suggests is that other goods shall be brought within the requirement of having documents. Presumably those documents would be no more unrelated than the documents prescribed in respect of certain prescribed goods under the Fifth to Ninth Schedules. Is it the point that there would be correspondence or letters in connection with the goods which I am suggesting should be brought within the Schedules, such as screws or organic fertilisers, whereas there will not be correspondence as a part of documents relating to the goods which are at present provided for within the Schedules? The point is: why cannot the application of this requirement be extended in the manner in which I have indicated?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I quite see the noble Lord's point. What he wants is to bring in other kinds of goods under this requirement. But what his Amend-

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ment would do is enable the inspector to take possession of other documents relating to goods which are already covered by the Bill, although the documents are not at present required by the Bill to be carried. They might be of a purely private nature, and we do not think it would be right to empower the inspector to seize them.
LORD FARINGDON: I still do not think that the noble Earl has taken the point. I have been looking at this Schedule just this minute, and there are, for example, cleansing powders and scouring powders included. What we have asked is that not only scouring powders and the other things included in the Fifth to Ninth Schedules should require documents; but the carpets that my noble friend spoke of, or the nails, or all the other things he mentioned, should also require documents; and that, those documents being required, as documents will be in any case regarding the scouring powders, they can be demanded and treated by the inspector as provided for in this clause. With great respect, it does not seem to me to raise the question of looking at private documents or any other documents that happen to be on the vehicle. It is only to do with extending the number of articles which will require to have documents attached to them. Surely that is the point.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The noble Lord may be looking at the Fifth Schedule. I am looking at Clause 31, Powers of inspector with respect to certain documents. This clause is not concerned with requirements as to documentation, but simply with the rights of the inspector to inspect documents—rights which are laid down elsewhere.
LORD FARINGDON: Would the noble Earl suggest that in order to bring these other articles within the scope of this Bill, and in order to require them to have documents, we should perhaps put down an Amendment to one of the Schedules and bring the documents into that?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Yes.
LORD LATHAM: If that be the procedure to be followed, it shall be
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followed. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 31 agreed to.
Clauses 32 and 33 agreed to.
6.45 p.m.
Clause 34 [Making quantity known to, and weighing in presence of, persons]:
LORD STONHAM LORD STONHAM moved, in subsection (1) after "Act", where that word first occurs, to insert:
",subject to the provisions of paragraph 4 (c) of Part VII and of paragraph 1 (c) of Part XI of the Fifth Schedule to this Act,".
The noble Lord said: Clause 34 lays on the seller an obligation to make known to the buyer the quantity of the goods sold, and he must do it by weight, measurement or number. He must do it in the buyer's presence, or deliver in a container marked with the quantity purporting to be delivered; or he must furnish a written statement containing the necessary information. Paragraph 4 (c) in Part VII of the Fifth Schedule expressly permits sales of goods in containers where the contents are clearly visible—sales of up to six articles. It does not require them to be sold by weight; it does not require production of a written document; and it does not require them to be marked with the number. It would therefore seem that the words of Clause 34 do not apply to those particular transactions which are permitted under paragraph 4 (c) of Part VII of the Fifth Schedule. If that is so, and if it is not covered elsewhere in the Bill (and the noble Earl may tell me that it is), it would seem that after the word "Act" we must insert words drawing attention to that fact; and that is what the Amendment proposes to do.
The noble Earl will see that I have included in the Amendment a reference to paragraph 1 (c) of Part XI of the Fifth Schedule, which requires packages of shell eggs to be marked with a number and therefore would come, as it now stands, under the provision of Clause 34. But I am hoping that at a later stage the Government will accept an Amendment which I hope to move so that the requirement for shell eggs shall not apply until the number of eggs in the packet exceeds six, provided, of course, that the contents are in a package which leaves them clearly visible to the buyer. It is with that in mind that I venture

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to include in this Amendment a reference to that paragraph 1 (c). I hope that I have made my meaning clear to the noble Earl and that he will be able to assure me either that the point is covered somewhere else in the Bill (it obviously is not covered in Clause 34) or that he will accept the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 33, line 7, after ("Act") insert the said words.—(Lord Stonham.)
6.50 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The noble Lord, Lord Stonham, seemed to be in some little doubt as to what Clause 34 actually does, The clause does not in itself impose any requirements upon transactions in any particular goods. All it does, in the three paragraphs (a), (b) and (c), is to specify three of the possible ways in which a seller can fulfil the obligations imposed upon him by the various provisions in the Bill to make the quantity of goods known to the buyer. The quantity is to be deemed to have been made known,

"(a) if the goods are weighed or otherwise measured or counted in the presence of the buyer; or

(b) if the goods are delivered to the buyer in a container marked with the quantity purported to be sold; or

(c) upon delivery to the buyer of any document required by or under this Act to be associated with, and to contain a statement of the quantity or, the goods."

This clause is purely declaratory or explanatory. It clearly states that the specification of the three ways of making the quantity known is entirely without prejudice to any other means of actually making it known which the seller may wish to employ. I do not think the noble Lord's Amendment could have any effect on the subsection, and I do not think it would effect any saving for the particular exempting, provisions of the Fifth Schedule to which he referred. But if it has enabled him to draw your Lordships' attention to subsequent Amendments which he intends to move, the noble Lord's Amendment has, nevertheless, served a useful purpose.
LORD STONHAM: I need hardly assure your Lordships that it was not raised for that reason, but out of a genuine belief, which is still not entirely dispelled, that it was a necessary Amendment. The noble Earl recounted, as I did, the three provisions which are in this subsection; the three ways of making known the
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weight or contents of the goods. But, as I pointed out, none of those three ways applies to the particular case which is permitted in paragraph 4 (c) of Part VII of the Fifth Schedule. I therefore have to ask him whether the words in Clause 34,
"without prejudice to any other means of making known to the buyer,"
cover the particular case which I have cited; because my impression is that merely exposing goods for sale in a manner in which they can be clearly seen is not a positive action in making them known to the buyer. But if the noble Earl assures me that it is so regarded, and that paragraph 4 (c) is still perfectly in order despite this Government clause, then I shall, of course, be perfectly satisfied.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Yes, I really think that it is without prejudice to any other means of actually making it known which the seller may wish to employ.
LORD STONHAM: I am very grateful for that assurance, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 34 agreed to.
Clause 35 [Local weights and measures authorities in England and Wales]:
6.54 p.m.
LORD BURDEN: This Amendment and the two subsequent Amendments are, of course, linked. The suggestion—and this is what I would put to the noble Earl—is that the dates specified in subsection (3) for prescribing the end of the period during which certain non-county boroughs cease to be weights and measures authorities may prove in actual practice to be too early, particularly having regard to the work of the Local Government Commission for England and Wales. There may be changes in population and in the status of boroughs, and it is therefore suggested in these Amendments that the Board of Trade should have power, if necessary, to appoint later dates than those set forth in the Bill. The Amendments are designed to help in the working of the Bill, and they are moved in that spirit. I beg to move the first Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 10, at end insert ("or in either case, such later date as the Board may by order appoint").—(Lord Burden.)
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: This is a slightly difficult question, which it may be the Government have made more difficult by trying to find some compromise between what the Hodgson Committee recommended and what the noble Lord would prefer. The Hodgson Committee recommended that only counties and county boroughs should be weights and measures authorities, and they even advocated that the smaller ones among these authorities should combine for all weights and measures purposes. There is a great deal to be said for that course, in the interests of both economic and efficient administration. It is not a question of the smaller authorities being inefficient in any way, but that, particularly as trade is conducted more and more on a national or regional basis, the enforcement by bigger units becomes in itself more efficient. To-day we have traders and manufacturers operating over wide areas with fewer authorities to deal with, and the establishment of local offices by the local authorities ensure that enforcement is not remote from the consumers. It is also in the interests of business and consumer alike that the standard of enforcement should be uniform over fairly wide areas.
But, in spite of these considerations, the Government decided not to accept the Hodgson Committee's view, and the Bill provides for a large number of non-county boroughs and urban districts to exercise the function if they so wish. By no means all the authorities which have been entitled to the function in the past have, in fact, exercised it. They have often combined with other authorities, or sometimes ceded the function to the county; but there are some non-county boroughs which are attached to the exercise of this function, and the Bill enables any non-county borough or urban district with a population greater than 60,000 to be a weights and measures authority if it so wishes. It goes even further by enabling the Board to make orders by which non-county boroughs and urban districts with a population below that figure may, in special circumstances, be enabled to act as weights and measures authorities. So, in both these respects, what we are proposing in the Bill constitutes a considerable "watering down" of the Hodgson Committee's recommendations.
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We thought this was the best compromise we could make between the arguments for the county and county boroughs only, on the one hand, and the need to keep a lively civic organisation in the smaller units of local government, on the other. Of course, like all compromise solutions, it can be shown to open the possibility of some illogical developments. We admit that the combined operation of the Local Government Act, 1958, and this Bill could produce a situation in which an authority ceased to be a weights and measures authority and then, later on, owing to an increase of population as a result of a boundary change, regained the right to be one.
Having created these possible causes of uncertainty as to who were going to be weights and measures authorities, it is desirable to try to limit the period of uncertainty. I would suggest to the noble Lord that the limits in this Bill—that is to say, until 1963 before an authority relinquishes its functions; until 1964 until an appeal can be lodged for special consideration for an Order by the Board of Trade; and then until 1965 until the new authority can actually be conferred by the Board of Trade—are as far ahead as we reasonably ought to go. I think that if we were to enable the definition and settlement of weights and measures authorities to be delayed still further, and that if we were to prolong the period of uncertainty, we should not be making the best compromise we could, and which we have tried to do under the Bill.
LORD BURDEN: I am obliged to the noble Earl for the explanation of the Government's point of view. With regard to the compromise, I quite agree with what the Government is doing in regard to authorities who are to be weights and measures authorities under the Bill. The only object of the Amendment was to try to get the Government out of some difficulties which might arise, as the noble Earl himself implied was conceivably possible, owing to the operations of the change in population or the activities of the Local Government Commission. However, if the Minister is satisfied that he has got sufficient elbow room without the Amendments that I propose, then it is not for me to press them any further.

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Obviously, the Amendments were trying to help the Board of Trade in the circumstances which the Minister indicated at the end of his speech. In those circumstances, I beg to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 35 agreed to.
Clause 36 [Local weights and measures authorities in metropolitan area and in Isles of Scilly]:
LORD LATHAM LORD LATHAM moved., after subsection (2) to insert:
"(3) Before making any order under subsection (2) of this section the Board shall consult with and consider any representations, with respect to the subject matter of the order, made to the Board by the local authorities concerned."
The noble Lord said: Clause No. 36 deals with authorities. The rubric is rather engaging, I think. It says:
"Local weights and measures authorities in metropolitan area and in Isles of Scilly".
Most civil of them, I think! It is an engaging prospect that the Isles of Scilly will become one of the Greater London boroughs under the proposals of the Royal Commission on Local Government in Greater London. Quite an entertaining prospect! However, Clause 35 deals with the local weights and measures authorities, and., as the noble Earl has said, county and county borough councils will be the authorities during the transitional period, as a saving for existing borough authorities.
Clause 36 provides that Clause 35 shall not apply to the metropolitan area—that is, Greater London—but that:
"The Board may by order…direct that all or any of the provisions of the said section thirty-five shall, subject to such exceptions, adaptations and modifications, if any, as may be specified in the order, extend to the metropolitan area or any part of it".
The purpose of the Amendment is that the Board should be required, before making any order, to consult the local authorities which will be affected by the order, and thus accord with the general principles of consultation between Government Departments and local authorities. Moreover, as the noble Earl will no doubt be aware, there is provision in Clause 35 (5) (b) for consultation, and there is likewise provision in Clause 55 (2) for consultation. The purpose of
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this Amendment, which I sincerely hope the noble Earl will be able to accept on behalf of the Government, is to require that there should be consultation with the local authorities before any steps are taken by the Board under the provisions of Clause 35 or otherwise. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 43, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Latham.)
7.5 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The noble Lord has correctly stated the privileged position accorded to the Isle of Scilly and to the metropolitan area of London under this Bill. It directs that the provisions of the Bill in respect to the other areas are to apply to the London area, with or without appropriate modifications. The contents of any order will depend on such decisions as may be made about the local government structure in the metropolitan area after the Government have considered the Report of the Royal Commission on Local Government in Greater London. The noble Lord's Amendment seeks to make Consultation between the Board of Trade and local authorities in the metropolitan area mandatory upon the Board.
It may be that provisions for responsibility for the weights and measures function in the metropolitan area could best be included in any general metropolitan area legislation that may prove to be necessary, and that it would be better not to introduce it by itself. But if the weights and measures function is to be dealt with separately from other legislation—that is to say, if it is to be dealt with under the powers given in this clause—I can assure the noble Lord that no order would be made under subsection (2) of the clause without consultation between the Board and all local interests which are likely to be affected.
But there is one reason against making the consultations statutory: that the necessary consultation might best be conducted in a much wider circle so as to cover a much greater number of functions at one time, a much wider field of discussion. And it might jeopardise proper consideration of the whole question, to the prejudice of all concerned, if consultation on weights and measures had to be kept separate, as it almost certainly would in order that a statutory

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requirement could be seen to be observed. In other words, if consultations on weights and measures were taken out of the general field of wider consultations which will result from the Royal Commission, it might be to the disadvantage of everybody concerned in those consultations. It might suit everybody far better to take them together, but they would have to be taken out if there were statutory provision in this Bill to that effect. But if we do have to act under the Bill, I can assure the noble Lord, on behalf of the Government, that consultation will take place.
LORD LATHAM: I am obliged and grateful to the noble Earl for the assurance he has given. But one can only deduce from what he has said that the application of the provisions of this Bill, When it becomes an Act, to the metropolitan area will follow, and not precede, the legislation, if there is to be any, in connection with Greater London local government. Is that so?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The consultations which lead up to the general legislation may include consultation about weights and measures functions and I think that would possibly be to the advantage of everybody. It would not necessarily mean that the arrangement of weights and measures functions would have to wait in order to be included with other legislation, but it might be that consultation upon them would be much more effective if carried out at the same time.
LORD LATHAM: I will not offer any prospective appreciation or otherwise of the value of consultations which may ensue from the Royal Commission's Report but I gather that the situation in the metropolitan area will remain for the most part what it is pending such consultations as may be decided upon in connection with the general question of local government in the metropolitan area, and 'that, if that be not the case and the Government proceed to change the present situation under this Bill, then consultation Will take place. I am much obliged to the noble Earl and in those circumstances beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD HAWKE: The City of Winchester, Which is not a county borough, is
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nervous about losing its place as a weights and measures authority. It is probably the oldest weights and measures authority in the country. It has the set of weights of King Edward III, the bushels of King Edgar and the yard of Henry VII. I think that it would come very properly from my noble friend, considering the many years he spent at Winchester—and from observation they appear to me to have been very happy years—that the City of Winchester should receive some sort of assurance that their case is the very case Her Majesty's Government had in mind when providing under Clause 35 various methods by which non-county boroughs can remain weights and measures authorities if they wish to do so. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 48, at end insert—
("() Section thirty-five of this Act shall not apply to the City of Winchester.")—(Lord Hawke.)
7.13 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I should like to warn the noble Lord, who has been most helpful on this Bill, that he has raised a very controversial question. In your Lordships' House and certainly in another place, there are many who are devoted to the existing administrative arrangements for weights and measures in the boroughs with which they are connected. The not subtle but open approach to the Minister who is to reply, on the basis that he had a long connection with Winchester School, does not seem to me to be very apposite. There are many Members of this House, with all kinds of qualifications, who have tender municipal recollections. I was born, a working-class boy, in Weston-super-Mare, which has a population of over 42,000, and I am the No. 1 Freeman of the Borough. It has always been a weights and measures authority. I should think that I have an equally good claim to put in a special plea for my borough as the noble Lord has to make a special request for the City of Winchester—certainly a bettor plea than that the noble Earl, who is a very popular Member of your Lordships' House, went to school there.
The noble Lord mentioned the ancient weights and measures at Winchester. I,

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myself, am a past Master of the Worshipful Company of Bakers, which has continued for some 800 years what is called the Assize of Bread. If we go on extending our researches into what are the dividing lines between those authorities who would qualify under the Bill for inclusion as a separate weights and measures authority, we may get into deep waters. Of course, we should be delighted to see the noble Earl get up and make a speech defending the prior claim of Winchester and its weights and measures. He is such a master of words that I am sure that he would be able to make a pleasant speech. But if he starts on that way, I can promise him a long journey through our municipal museums.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: It is with bitter sorrow that I rise to reply to my noble friend's Amendment. In a sense, my noble friend and I were exact contemporaries at Winchester for five years, but it is my duty to say that, although my noble friend hoped that Winchester might have been one of the places which had been in the mind of the Government when they arranged for non-county boroughs with less than 60,000 people to apply for special consideration by the Board of Trade, and although perhaps it might have been, it would have been quite improper for the Government to express any view about whether any non-county borough with a population likely to be below 60,000 on June 30, 1961, should or should not have weights and measures functions conferred on it by the Board of Trade. If we did, we can see what would happen. We should immediately arouse the violent jealousy of Weston-super-Mare and no doubt of a large number of other places all over the country which have a larger population than that of Winchester, which I am sorry to say is only 27,000 compared with the 42,000 of Western-super-Mare.
The reason for my noble friend's Amendment, which seeks to circumvent the normal arrangements in the case of Winchester, is because it is such a very ancient city, the old capital of Wessex and the centre of the ancient weights and measures of that part of the country. Although it is a weights and measures authority under the present law, it is actually in combination with the county of Hampshire for all the purposes of the
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existing Weights and Measures Acts. The provisions of Clause 35 will make it necessary for Winchester Corporation to lodge a claim, if they wish to retain this function. If the Corporation do so and the appeal is unsuccessful, then the present combination, by virtue of subsection (3) of Clause 38, will cease to have effect. That would have no practical effect on the existing provision, because the job of carrying out weights and measures functions would continue to be performed by the county of Hampshire with exactly the same inspectors and same staff as now; but, of course, Winchester would lose the nominal status which it has had for centuries. If, on the other hand, their claim is successful, the present arrangement would then continue undisturbed.
I can do no more than give that factual statement of the case. I am afraid that I cannot indicate any possible action which the Government may take with regard either to Winchester or Westonsuper-Mare or any other non-county borough with a population under 60,000. Every one of them which wishes to appeal must have its case considered on its merits.
LORD HAWKE: I thank my noble friend for his reply, from which I think the City of Winchester as well as other non-county boroughs will take some comfort. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 36 agreed to.
Clauses 37 and 38 agreed to.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The last thing I should want to do would be to prevent the noble Lord, Lord Burden, from moving the next Amendment, but it occurred to me, as it is now twenty past seven and as we have made good progress, having got to the end of Clause 38, that this might be the time when your Lordships would like to adjourn the Committee. If that is agreeable, I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved, That the House do now resume.—(The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and House resumed accordingly.
House adjourned at twenty-two minutes past seven o'clock.