Sitting of 27 April 1960

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EMPLOYMENT

    Northumberland
    Mr. Owenasked the Minister of Labour what steps are being taken to find employment for the 2,531 men and 24 young persons registered as disabled in the east Northumberland area; and whether he will make a statement.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Peter Thomas): of the 2,531 men and 24 young persons registered as disabled, only 170 men and 10 young persons were unemployed on 11th April. My disablement resettlement officers are doing their best to find suitable work for them.
    Mr. Owen: While appreciating the efforts which are being made to deal with this problem in that locality, may I ask whether the Minister is aware that with the contraction of the mining industry opportunities for providing employment for the disabled persons become more and more difficult to create? Is it not possible to give some consideration to an extension of the Remploy factory in the area or the provision of facilities whereby some of these young people can be transferred to other areas, with some supervision and support?
    Mr. Thomas: I appreciate the difficulties which the contraction of the coal mining industry brings, but the number of unemployed among the registered disabled men has declined by seventeen over the last month, and ten severely disabled persons have been placed in the Remploy factory at Bedlington during the last six months.

    School Leavers
    Mr. Owenasked the Minister of Labour what steps are being taken to find employment for the 2,130 young persons who have been unemployed since leaving school; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. P. Thomas: Of the 2,130 young people who left school last summer and at Christmas and were still unemployed on 14th March this year, 948 had been placed in employment by 11th April. The Youth Employment Service is doing all it can to place the remaining 1,182.
    Mr. Owen: Does the Minister recognise that we have here a serious challenge, which will face the young people in the future, and that for years we have been awaiting some realistic expression of the Carr Committee's Report? I believe that some of those now registered at the exchange are school leavers from August, 1959. What hopes have these young people for the future? Surely the Minister must recognise that this is a matter for top priority. Should it not receive his immediate attention?
    Mr. Thomas: I recognise the importance of this matter. The majority of the 1,182 who are unemployed are in Scotland, Wales and the Northern Region, and they reflect the difficult areas. To help these areas we are using the Local Employment Act.
    Mr. Prentice: If there are over 1,000 young people in this position, what will the position be next year and the year after when the number of young people leaving school rises? As the position is now serious, will it not be desperate by then, unless drastic steps are taken now to provide more jobs and more training opportunities for young people?
    Captain Pilkington: Is it not very discouraging for youths entering industry when they read in the newspapers about men being sent to Coventry for working too hard or because they do not join some particular union?
    Hon. Members: A red herring.
    Mr. Thomas: As the House knows, there are in certain areas very many outstanding vacancies for young people. It is in particular areas that there is difficulty in finding employment. As I

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    have said, it is in order to assist these areas that the Local Employment Act has been passed.

    Youth Employment Officers
    Mr. Holtasked the Minister of Labour if he will increase the proportion of his grant towards the salaries of local youth employment officers.
    Mr. P. Thomas: No, Sir; the grant already covers three-quarters of the expenditure on salaries.
    Mr. Holt: Does not the Minister agree that the real problem here is to bring the worst local authorities up to the standards of the best? Will he consider sending out a circular on this matter for the guidance of local authorities? Will he not further agree that at a time when the Government are being asked to implement the Albemarle Report it would be quite anomalous and retrograde for the youth employment officers to suffer a diminution in their status, with a consequent lowering of the quality of the people entering the employment service?
    Mr. Thomas: I will certainly consider what the hon. Member has said.

    Dunbartonshire
    Mr. Steeleasked the Minister of Labour what was the ratio of boys under 18 years of age registered as wholly unemployed to the number of unfilled notified vacancies in the County of Dunbarton at the latest available date.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Edward Heath): There were 96 wholly unemployed boys in the County of Dunbarton on 11th April and 38 unfilled notified vacancies.
    Mr. Steele: Would the Minister agree that this is one of the places referred to by the Parliamentary Secretary and that these figures indicate a grave situation and are indicative of what is happening in Scotland as a whole? Does he agree that special measures are necessary in Scotland, and will he undertake to consult his Ministerial colleagues with a view to taking special action?
    Mr. Heath: The special action is being taken by the Government under the Local Employment Act and Dunbarton itself is a development district. In addi-
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    tion, there is the new town of Cumbernauld, in which it is expected that 4,000 places of employment will become available. The development corporation is also building an advance factory. It is, therefore, apparent that action is being taken because the urgency of the problem is realised. The problem is not so much one of school leavers, because they are being placed in work fairly satisfactorily, but of younger people who later lose jobs for a variety of reasons and are then difficult to place.

    Ayrshire
    Mr. Manuelasked the Minister of Labour what was the ratio of boys under 18 years of age registered as wholly unemployed to the number of unfilled notified vacancies in the County of Ayr at the latest date available.
    Mr. Heath: On 11th April, there were 69 notified vacancies for every 100 wholly unemployed boys.
    Mr. Manuel: Is the Minister aware that this is an alarming figure for the County of Ayr? Is he further aware that it will be much aggravated if those who leave school cannot go into jobs for which their aptitude suits them and that in Scotland thousands, and in Ayrshire hundreds, go into dead-end jobs because suitable employment is not available? This is a bad thing for the country generally if it continues over too long a period.
    Mr. Heath: The Question does not deal with an analysis of the sort of jobs into which young people are going; that could be dealt with separately. What is encouraging is that, although the position is not entirely satisfactory, there are five times as many vacancies as a year ago and nearly twice as many as a month ago. There are also signs in the area that recruitment in coal mining is about to be resumed, that the B.M.K. carpet factory will take more young people and that firms going into the Royal Ordnance Factory at Irvine will also provide employment. In addition, there are seven areas in the county which are development districts under the Local Employment Act.

    Scotland (Boys)
    Mr. Hannanasked the Minister of Labour what proportion of Scottish boys

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    in the past two years have taken unskilled employment as their first occupation since leaving school.
    Mr. Heath: I regret that information is not available in the form desired by the hon. Member.
    Mr. Hannan: Will the Minister make closer inquiry of the Scottish Office and the youth employment officers in Scotland, when he will find that the proportion is extremely high and provides startling evidence of the need not only for employment but for training? Since his Industrial Training Council seems to be bursting with inactivity, will the Minister please take action and interview the youth employment officers, the Careers Council, the trade unions and employers with a view to getting a move on?
    Mr. Heath: We already obtain a lot of information about the jobs into which young people go, for example, whether they are apprenticeships or whether they lead to professional qualifications, but we do not have the information which would enable us to break down all the other employments into which young people enter; that is, whether the jobs are skilled or lead in the end only to unskilled employment. I do not believe that the great majority go into dead-end jobs. The I.T.C. is not a Government organisation, but is set up jointly by the employers and the trade unions.
    Mr. Lawson: Does the Minister not agree that it is disturbing that we cannot get this sample information? Does he not feel that if he cannot give my hon. Friend this information, it is about time he was able to give it? We know about the apprentices and learners, but there is also a large category of boys who are not classified. Surely, it is time that we knew what was happening to these boys. Does not the Minister agree?
    Mr. Heath: When one is getting detailed information of this kind, one has also to consider the amount of trouble and work involved in getting it. It is comparatively easy to get information about apprenticeships or employment leading to recognised professional qualifications, but to break down all the rest of the employments into the degree of skill which they involve is a very big operation.
    Mr. Willisasked the Minister of Labour (1) the number of boys in Scotland who will be seeking employment for the first time during 1960; and what steps are being taken to ensure that employment will be available;
    (2) what special steps he is taking to overcome the unemployment problem among Scottish boys.
    Mr. Heath: It is estimated that in Scotland 31,000 boys will be seeking employment for the first time this year. This is slightly less than in 1959. The employment prospects for school leavers will depend largely on the general employment situation which, I am glad to say, has improved significantly in Scotland in recent weeks.
    Mr. Willis: Is the Minister aware that, when making a correct comparison with the same period last year, the improvement is not so good? Is he also aware that there is widespread anxiety in Scotland concerning the employment of youths who will leave school during the next two or three years? Is he also aware that there is widespread fear that what the Government are doing is nowhere near good enough? Will the right hon. Gentleman impress upon his Government colleagues the urgent necessity to do far more than is being done to provide employment?
    Mr. Heath: Between February and April, there has been a fall of over 15,000 in the number of unemployed in Scotland. That is a drop of from 4·7 to 4 per cent., which is encouraging. The future of these young people depends upon the amount of employment which is available. That is why the Government have included areas covering 61 per cent. of the insured working population of Scotland in the development districts to give inducements to industry to go there. If the hon. Member and his friends want the Government to take more vivid or violent action, the only way in which it can be done is by compelling firms to go to these areas. We are not prepared to do that.
    Mr. Prentice: Despite the improvement of which the Minister speaks, is it not a fact that Scotland has 3,000 unemployed boys under the age of 18 and 1,500 unemployed girls under that age? Will the right hon. Gentleman answer

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    a question similar to the one which his hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary refused to answer just now: when the school leavers increase in number next year and increase still more in 1962, will not the existing serious situation become desperate? What special steps will be taken by the Government to deal with those in the special areas in Scotland?
    Mr. Heath: It will not become a desperate situation. One must not take merely the numbers of young people leaving school and add them to the number who will not secure employment. At the same time, a considerable number of people will be leaving employment for retirement and other reasons and their places have to be filled,, The question of the "bulge" confronts the whole country. The way in which young people will get work is by having an economy which can provide it for them. That means persuading industry to go to Scotland. The whole of the efforts of my right hon. Friends the President of the Board of Trade and the Secretary of State for Scotland and of myself have been devoted to trying to persuade firms to go to Scotland to provide employment.

    Fife
    Mr. Gourlayasked the Minister of Labour what was the ratio of boys under 18 years, registered as wholly unemployed, to the number of unfilled vacancies in the County of Fife, at the latest available date.
    Mr. Heath: On 11th April, there were 23 notified vacancies for every 100 wholly unemployed boys.
    Mr. Gourlay: Is the Minister aware that the position which is indicated by these shocking figures was borne out recently in Kirkcaldy, where a local coach-building firm advertised two vacancies for apprentices? The first boy arrived at 5 o'clock in the morning and by 6 a.m. there were 30 boys in the queue waiting to be interviewed. Will the right hon. Gentleman, therefore, press his colleague the President of the Board of Trade to give every possible financial inducement to industry to come to Fife, so that we may have the kind of position which now obtains in Birmingham of over 2,000 jobs for every 100 unemployed boys?
    Mr. Heath: On 1st April, my right hon. Friend added the Dunfermline district, including Cowdenbeath and Anstruther, to the list of development districts to provide some of the help for which the hon. Member has asked. I am glad to see that the Transport Commission is recruiting in Dunfermline, and it is expected also that there will be a higher intake of young people into coal mining in the area this year.

    Chester-le-Street
    Mr. Pentlandasked the Minister of Labour the total number of persons unemployed in the Chester-le-Street constituency area, listing disabled and young persons separately.
    Mr. Heath: At 11th April, 650 persons were registered as unemployed, including 106 disabled persons and 79 young persons.
    Mr. Pentland: In view of the fact that coal mining is the predominant industry of the area, what plan does the Minister have for assisting these people to find jobs in other industries in the Chester-le-Street area?
    Mr. Heath: In the hon. Member's constituency, Chester-le-Street has a rate of unemployment of 2·2 per cent. which is slightly above the national average. On the other hand, in Washington Station it is 1·6 per cent., which is below the national average. My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has said that projects to be located in Chester-le-Street could be considered for assistance under the Local Employment Act if they provided work within travel-to-work areas of higher unemployment.

    Northern Region
    Mr. Pentlandasked the Minister of Labour if he will state the total numbers of persons unemployed in the Northern Region residing in areas not included in the districts listed under the Local Employment Bill, listing young people and disabled persons separately.
    Mr. Heath: There were 21,628 on 11th April, of whom 1,970 were young persons under 18 years of age, and 3,059 were registered disabled persons.
    Mr. Pentland: These are really serious figures. Is the Minister aware that we

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    on this side are thoroughly fed up with the Government's complacent approach to the problem facing our unemployed people in the North? Will not he consult his right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the President of the Board of Trade in order to bring forward a strategic industrial plan to meet the requirements of the North of England?
    Mr. Heath: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that these figures cover a very large area, indeed. The Northern Region includes Northumberland, Durham, Westmorland, Cumberland and the North Riding of Yorkshire. Further, there is absolutely no complacency at all in the Government about this problem. The first place that I visited after becoming Minister of Labour was the North East Coast. Since then, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade and my right hon. Friend himself have both been there. Furthermore, four major new projects have been announced for the area: Pressed Steel at Jarrow, The Metal Box Company at Newburn, Ransome and Maries at Anfield Plain, and Paton and Baldwin at Jarrow, amounting to 3,100 jobs altogether. That, I think, is encouraging.
    Mr. Elliot: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the statement made yesterday in Newcastle by the regional controller, Board of Trade, that there have probably been 7,000 new jobs brought to our area since the beginning of the year, is highly encouraging? In conjunction with his right hon. and hon. Friends concerned, will he continue those very successful efforts to bring more employment to the North East?
    Mr. Randall: Does the Minister of Labour think it encouraging that from 14th March the number of boys under 18 years of age who are unemployed has increased by about 300? That does not seem to be very encouraging. Is it not the fact that the President of the Board of Trade has left out about 75 per cent. of this area from the assistance provided by the Local Employment Act? So it is little wonder that unemployment amongst our youth continues.
    Mr. Heath: If the hon. Gentleman refers to figures—which I shall have to check—which include those who have left school since the end of the Easter term, I must tell him that it must take
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    some little time to fit them into employment. One has to take a certain time after the end of a school term to do this.
    Mr. Shortasked the Minister of Labour what is the total of unemployed persons in the Northern Region; and how many of these, and what percentage, are in areas listed under the Local Employment Act.
    Mr. Heath: On 11th April, 39,596, of whom 17,968 or 45·4 per cent. were in areas listed as development districts under the Local Employment Act.
    Mr. Short: That answer means that 55 per cent. of the unemployed in the North-East are not even covered by the Government's Measure. Does not that reveal the Measure as a colossal trick on the part of the Government who. at the election, held out the proposed Bill as the first Measure of the new Parliament to relieve local unemployment? We now find that 55 per cent. of our unemployed are not even touched by it. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are sick of the complacent nonsense poured out about the North-East by himself and his hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, North (Mr. R. W. Elliot) when, in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, we have 4,000 unemployed, of whom 55 per cent. are not affected by the Local Employment Act?
    Mr. Heath: As I have already said, the area covered by the Northern Region is a very large one, consisting, I think, of 4½ counties. Therefore, although the percentage of the number of unemployed not covered by the Act is greater than those covered, it is spread over a very much greater area. It is because the percentage of unemployment in these areas does not come up to the level envisaged in the Act that they are not on the list of development districts.
    As I have said, it is right to concentrate our resources on the areas that need it most. There is absolutely no complacency. If hon. Members want additional measures to be adopted they must specify those measures. In addition to inducements, there remains only one thing, and that is compulsion, and we are not prepared to compel firms to go there.
    Mr. Jay: But will the Minister note the very serious concern expressed today

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    by my hon. Friends from Scotland and the North-East Coast about the unemployment situation in those areas? Since the position there has worsened relatively to the rest of the country in the last six months and as the shipbuilding prospect is far from promising, will he not today undertake that the Government will take more strenuous and vigorous measures than they have yet done under the Act?
    Mr. Heath: The assurance I can give to the House is that my right hon. Friends and myself will continue our very determined efforts to persuade industry to go to these areas. I am afraid that on one matter the right hon. Gentleman is not correct. The position in Scotland and the North-East has improved more than it has in the rest of the country, because the percentage decrease in unemployment is much greater than it is for the country as a whole.
    Mr. Jay: Will not the right hon. Gentleman agree with what all my hon. Friends know to be the truth; that, as compared with a year ago, the position in Scotland has certainly deteriorated?

    Crook
    Mr. Ainsleyasked the Minister of Labour what reduction there has been in the numbers of unemployed in Crook since this area was listed under the Local Employment Bill.
    Mr. Heath: There has been a reduction of 85 since February.
    Mr. Ainsley: During the General Election the Government made great play of their proposed Local Employment Bill. In the period that has since intervened, will the Minister tell us what new industry has come into the whole of the west of Durham, where we have a declining mining industry, where pits and other places are closing, and where the disabled workers and the young people cannot find work? Will he tell us what the Government intend doing about this?
    Mr. Heath: The pledge in the election manifesto was carried out by the Government making the local Employment Bill the first Measure of this Parliament. That Measure received the Royal Assent just before Easter, but despite its recent nature it has already
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    had a very considerable effect on some major industries, including the motor industry. As regards the hon. Gentleman's own area, he will be glad to know that 470 jobs are expected to accrue in south-west Durham from projects that have already been approved.

    North-East
    Mr. Ainsleyasked the Minister of Labour how many boys and girls left school at Easter in the North-East; and how many vacancies are available for boys and girls, respectively.
    Mr. P. Thomas: I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible, but it will be some time before full information is available.
    Mr. Ainsley: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that of the boys who left school at Christmas and at the end of the Easter term, 50 per cent. have yet to be found employment? What does he intend doing about it?
    Mr. Thomas: I am afraid that the numbers of boys who have left school after the last date of unemployment count, which was 11th April, are unknown. I cannot, therefore, comment on that. What I can tell the hon. Gentleman is that there has been a great improvement in the number of vacancies compared with a year ago. Indeed, there has been a great improvement on a month ago. On 9th March there were 1,679 vacancies, and on 6th April the number was 2,644.
    Mr. Greyasked the Minister of Labour what consultations he has had with trade unions in the North-East regarding the establishment of a training centre for young people.
    Mr. P. Thomas: My right hon. Friend is reviewing the need for a Government training centre in the Northern Region, in consultation with local employer and trade union representatives. He is also considering the provision of first-year apprenticeship training there.
    Mr. Grey: Are we to understand from that reply that nothing has been done up to the present moment? Are not the Government taking a nonsensical view when they tell us that no provision for this kind of training centre has been made for young people in the North wanting

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    work? Will not he treat this as a matter of urgency, because the people in the North-East are very concerned?
    Mr. Thomas: The consultations with the trade unions, about which the hon. Gentleman's Question asks, refer to the Government training centre, which is something that my right hon. Friend is reviewing. If a Government training centre is reopened in the North-East, the question of whether in that centre there should be first-year apprenticeship training will be considered.
    Mr. Greyasked the Minister of Labour if he will give the percentage of men, women, and young persons, respectively, unemployed in the North-East at the latest available date.
    Mr. Heath: At 11th April, the unemployment rate was 3·1 per cent. The rate for all males was 3·4 per cent., and for all females, 2·6 per cent. It is not possible to compute a separate rate for young persons.
    Mr. Grey: One cannot really tell from the figures whether we are better or worse off, but we will assume the position to be a slightly better one. May I ask the Minister whether he is aware that there has always been a firm nucleus of about 33,000 people unemployed in the North-East, and does he not think that whatever efforts have been made they have not been sufficient to meet that need? Will not he review the whole position and make a stronger attack on unemployment in this area?
    Mr. Heath: We are making a very serious attack on unemployment in the North-East, because my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade has placed seven areas there in his list of development districts. That, therefore, will provide an inducement for industry to go there but, as my right hon. Friend has always explained, it is important to concentrate the resources for the inducements in the areas that need it most rather than to spread them thinly over a very much larger area. I am sure that that is the right policy to follow.
    Mr. Lee: Will not the Minister agree that the figures he quotes have been obtained at the beginning of what would appear to be a new period of credit squeeze? Looking at the background of the former credit squeeze, when unem-
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    ployment went up to 750,000, and vacancies diminished by 250,000, will he not agree that, in the present economic circumstances, those figures are dangerous?
    Mr. Heath: The figures I gave earlier are those of projects already approved and on which, as far as one knows, the firms will go ahead and provide a number of jobs.

    Newcastle-upon-Tyne
    Mr. Shortasked the Minister of Labour how many young persons under the age of 18 years are unemployed in Newcastle-upon-Tyne; and how many vacancies are available.
    Mr. P. Thomas: On 11th April there were 199 young people registered as unemployed at Youth Employment offices in the City of Newcastle-upon-Tyne. This figure does not include any Easter school leavers, as the school term ended after the April count. On 6th April there were 731 vacancies, notified to these offices, still unfilled.
    Mr. Short: But does not the hon. Gentleman realise that, with the addition of the Easter school leavers, the figures are a great deal worse? Will he tell his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer about these figures before the Chancellor makes his statement tomorrow and ask him to bear in mind that if the credit squeeze is applied because of inflation in the Midlands and the South-East it will have an extremely detrimental effect on the employment prospects of other areas, notably the North-East Coast?
    Mr. Thomas: I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend will see these figures by tomorrow.

  ROYAL NAVY

    Moorings
    Mr. Langford-Holtasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty if he will give a list of the moorings maintained by his Department, and the number of hours each of these moorings have been used during the financial year 1959–60.
    The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing): The moorings maintained by the Admiralty include many

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    used for navigational buoys, targets, etc. Those that can provide berths for ships number about 450 and, with permission, I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a statement showing their distribution. I am sorry to say that no record of their hourly usage is available.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: In order to save the enormous maintenance costs that fall on the Admiralty, can my hon. Friend say whether, except when required for use, these buoys could not be left on the bottom?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: The Question was about the moorings. This swamping method is very good and sensible, and is one that we are looking at to see whether we can save costs in this way.
    Following is the statement:

    Ship berths

    Portsmouth Harbour

    …

    …

    65

    Portsmouth vicinity

    …

    …

    31

    Portland

    …

    …

    26

    Devonport

    …

    …

    61

    Dartmouth

    …

    …

    2

    Falmouth

    …

    …

    6

    Pembroke Dock

    …

    …

    21

    Londonderry

    …

    …

    3

    Sheerness

    …

    …

    14

    Harwich

    …

    …

    2

    Chatham

    …

    …

    18

    Clyde area

    …

    …

    54

    Campbelltown

    …

    …

    2

    Loch Ewe

    …

    …

    7

    Rosyth

    …

    …

    28

    Invergordon

    …

    …

    14

    Gibraltar

    …

    …

    8

    Malta

    …

    …

    58

    Singapore

    …

    …

    18

    Elsewhere abroad

    …

    …

    10

    Mr. Langford-Holtasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what steps he proposes to take to reduce the expenditure of £1 million paid out each year by his Department for the maintenance of 1,400 moorings.
    Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: We have been steadily reducing the number of moorings at such places as Sheerness, Harwich, Portland and Hong Kong. In addition, we are at present reviewing measures for further reducing the numbers, and undertaking the work more economically.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: Can my hon. Friend give the House some idea of what measures he has in view to save money on these moorings?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: We are considering a modified standard of maintaining moorings, and are particularly taking into account the American and civil practice in this direction to see whether economies can be made.

    Divers (Pay)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether he will continue to pay the 2d. per minute or 10s. per hour to clearance divers, grade CD3, for the time spent diving, in addition to the rise in pay recently announced for the Forces.
    Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: No, Sir. The payment of naval divers according to the time spent under water was abolished in the 1960 Pay Code, and has been replaced by daily rates calculated to give approximately equivalent earnings over the whole period of a man's career. Clearance divers will receive the new daily rates according to their qualifications, in addition to the recently announced increases in basic pay amounting on an average to about 5 per cent.
    Mr. Janner: Does not the hon. Gentleman think that a special inducement should be given, in addition to that to which he has already referred, for this very specialised and, in many instances, very dangerous work? Will he reconsider the matter?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: There is a special inducement according to skill of either 6s., 8s. or 10s. a day. It is doubtful whether one should give extra inducement to men to spend extra time under water. We found that that was laborious to administer and rather uneven in results. Moreover, it means that junior ratings are able to earn much higher sums by staying under water for longer periods than others who have greater responsibility.

    Cadet Force and Sea Cadets
    Mr. Critchleyasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty how many motor boats and sailing and pulling boats provided from naval sources are in use by the Combined Cadet Force and Sea Cadet Units.
    Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: The naval sections of the Combined Cadet Force have

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    114 pulling and sailing craft but do not use power boats. The Sea Cadet Corps have in use 113 power boats and 631 pulling and sailing craft.
    Commander Keransasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what arrangements are being made for members of naval sections of the Combined Cadet Force and Sea Cadets to visit ships of the operational Fleet; for how many arrangements will be made to undertake such visits in 1960; and how many will go to sea.
    Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: We are arranging for at least 192 cadets from naval sections of the Combined Cadet Force and 1,000 Sea Cadets to go to sea for training in operational ships during 1960. In addition, there will be day visits to ships for parties of cadets; last year Combined Cadet Force parties alone made 300 such visits.
    Commander Kerans: While welcoming that reply, may I ask whether anything can be done to increase these visits, especially to foreign ports?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: We should like to increase the number of visits. I would point out that, in addition to the visits to operational ships, which are the most desirable, 5,500 visits are being made to naval establishments on shore. I will look into the question of visits to foreign ports, but I should point out that this involves certain difficulties of transport to and from the area concerned.
    Commander Keransasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what was the cost to the Royal Navy of the assistance rendered to the Sea Cadet Corps and the Combined Cadet Force in 1959; and what has been the return in the number of entries during that year.
    Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: In 1959, the cost of the assistance rendered by the Royal Navy to the Sea Cadet Corps amounted to £224,400 and to the Combined Cadet Force to £68,000. During that year, 707 Sea Cadets and 162 cadets from naval sections of the Combined Cadet Force entered the Royal Navy. A further 418 cadets entered the Merchant Navy and 22 entered the Royal Naval Reserve.
    Commander Kerans: Can my hon. Friend say what is the relative strength
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    of the Sea Cadet Corps and the naval section of the Combined Cadet Force?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: The strength of the Sea Cadet Corps is 19,000 and the strength of the naval section of the Combined Cadet Force is 5,000.

    H.M. Yacht "Britannia"
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty how many officers and men will be employed on H.M. Yacht "Britannia" during its forthcoming cruise; and what is the esimated weekly cost of their pay.
    Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: Twenty officers and 237 ratings will be on board; the estimated weekly cost of their pay is £4,000. This complement serves in the Yacht throughout the time she is in commission and no extra expenditure on pay arises from the forthcoming cruise.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Civil Lord not aware that this is rather a large sum of money to be spent on one honeymoon couple, when the Government are urging us to be restrained and cautious in public expenditure in order to avoid inflation? Is it not necessary that there should be some regard to economy in the most ancient of our nationalised industries? Could the hon. Gentleman tell us the total cost involved?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: The decision to build "Britannia" was taken by Earl Attlee's Government in October, 1951, and the decision was endorsed by the Conservative Government which followed.
    Mr. Hughes: For use as a hospital ship.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: The pay of officers and men arises directly out of that decision and is not according to the use which is made of "Britannia" or where she goes. I should have thought that it was the general view of this House that after the manifold duties which Her Royal Highness Princess Margaret undertakes at home and in the Commonwealth, she should on this occasion enjoy a very happy voyage.
    Hon. Members: Hear. hear.
    Mr. Hughes: In view of the unsatisfactory and misleading nature of that reply, I give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Royal Victoria Yard, Deptford
    Sir L. Plummerasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty what plans he has for the future of the Royal Victoria Yard, Deptford; and to what extent they entail a reduction in the established and temporary staff now employed.
    Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: We expect to close the yard by about June, 1961, and, with the exception of two small areas, to offer the remaining 16 acres for disposal. Eighty-nine temporary and 143 established posts will be reduced as a result of the closure of the yard. Against these reductions, there will be an increase of 99 posts in the naval store department in the neighbouring Supply Reserve Depot at Deptford as a result of the transfer of work from Crickle-wood where we are closing the naval store depot.
    Sir L. Plummer: Does the Civil Lord appreciate that the closing of this historic yard is a matter of considerable interest among the workers there? May I also ask what is the anticipated annual saving on maintenance, how will the requirements for additional stores be met, and will the hon. Gentleman have a conversation with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour to see that the twenty or thereabouts non-established industrial workers who will be made redundant will be found employment elsewhere?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: I certainly acknowledge the first point. On the second point, there will be a saving of about £36,000 a year. On the third point, we are considering the question of absorbing the established and perhaps redeploying the unestablished staff at Cricklewood, and there will also be vacancies at the Supply Reserve Depot for those from the Victualling Yard. As to the last point, I will certainly get in touch with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour to make sure that he looks after redundant personnel.

    New Ships (Air-Conditioning)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Civil Lord of the Admiralty to what extent new ships that are likely to be used for service in tropical climates are equipped with air-conditioning.
    Mr. C. Ian Orr-Ewing: All new designs of Her Majesty's ships likely to serve in the tropics will have air-conditioning, but a number of ships of existing designs cannot be fitted with complete installations, so that it will be some years before all ships in the fleet are fully air-conditioned. In the meantime we have fitted ships stationed in the Persian Gulf and other hot climates with air-conditioning units in important compartments, including living spaces.
    Mr. Driberg: Does it follow from that answer that when new ships are being designed and built air-conditioning equipment is regarded as an integral part of the basic design and not as a luxury extra to be fitted in if and where it can be?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: Air-conditioning is a basic part of new design.

  POST OFFICE

    Forward-Scatter Stations
    Mr. Fletcherasked the Postmaster-General what action he is taking in view of the report of the committee of experts regarding the safety precautions that should be taken to protect the public and operating staffs against the hazards of intense radio-frequency radiation that may be produced by high-power transmitters in forward-scatter radio stations.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Miss Mervyn Pike): Our own responsibility is for stations operated by the Post Office and for radio and radar stations for which a licence is required under the Wireless Telegraphy Act, 1949. We propose to require the licensees of stations to which the precautions are applicable to give an undertaking to observe them.
    Mr. Fletcher: Is the hon. Lady aware that the report of this committee of experts shows that the danger to health, and particularly to eyes, is much greater than was previously supposed, and that there is a danger to the public as well as to the staff, the danger area being wider than was supposed? What steps are being taken to acquaint the public of these dangers?
    Miss Pike: The Postmaster-General issued a notice to the national, medical

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    and technical Press on 6th April drawing attention to the committee's report and to the forthcoming publication of the recommendations by Her Majesty's Stationery Office.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: In view of the apprehension that is being caused by this new development, will the hon. Lady give an undertaking that the Department will keep this matter under very close observation and keep the public fully informed of the position?
    Miss Pike: Yes, Sir.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Air Rank Posts
    Mr. de Freitasasked the Secretary of State for Air how many officers of the rank of air commodore and above are serving on international and inter-service staffs in posts which are his financial responsibility.
    The Secretary of State for Air (Mr. George Ward): Air Votes bear the cost of 10 air rank posts which are established wholly or mainly for international or inter-service reasons.
    Mr. de Freitas: Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that during the Air Estimates debates we were told that one of the reasons for the increase in the proportion of high air rank officers was the existence of these staffs? Does he realise that the figures which he has given and those given by the Minister of Defence really call in question the whole argument? When is there going to be a proper balance between the number of very senior officers and the much smaller size of the Royal Air Force?
    Mr. Ward: It is quite impossible to relate the number of air rank posts directly to the number of uniformed personnel. To begin with, the complexity and the responsibilities of the Royal Air Force do not by any means vary in direct ratio with the number of uniformed personnel. I can, however assure the hon. Gentleman that I am personally watching this matter and am doing all I can to keep the number of air rank posts down to proper proportions.

    Forward-Scatter Stations
    Mr. de Freitasasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware of the recent official report by a committee of experts concerning the dangers of heat radiation from forward-scatter stations; and what steps he is taking to meet this problem at the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation forward-scatter stations in this country.
    Mr. Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for Air, how many North Atlantic Treaty Organisation forward-scatter radio links are being set up in the United Kingdom; and what safety precautions he is introducing to protect the public against the dangers of intense radio-frequency radiation that are inherent in the operation of such stations.
    Mr. Ward: Five N.A.T.O. forward-scatter stations are being set up in the United Kingdom. The small areas within which radiation is above the recommended safe level will be fenced off. Special arrangements will be made for the operating and servicing staffs.
    Mr. de Freitas: Does the Secretary of State remember that in November, 1958, his Under-Secretary told the House that there was no danger whatsoever from the radiation of these stations? How is it that hon. Members and the radio correspondents of a number of newspapers, such as The Times, were so much better informed than the Minister?
    Mr. Ward: I am afraid I do not know how The Times gets its information; but certainly, so far as the Royal Air Force is concerned, the area immediately in front of the antennae, which will in no case be more than 100 yards and in some cases very much less, will be fenced off, and therefore there will be no danger.
    Mr. Fletcher: Is it not now quite clear that S.H.A.P.E. attempted to minimise the hazards due to these stations and that the danger not only to the staffs operating therein but to the public over a much wider area is much greater than the House was led to believe? In view of this, will not the Minister reconsider his whole decision on this matter and the precautions which ought to be taken?
    Mr. Ward: I am informed that the only danger is where the field strength of radiation exceeds 10 milliwatts per sq. cm. This area is very small, as I have explained. As to the people working on the stations, special precautions will be taken, as I said in my original answer.

  ROADS

    Parking Meter Zones (Doctors)
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Minister of Transport if he will make regulations to facilitate free parking of cars by doctors when visiting their patients in parking meter zones.
    The Minister of Transport (Mr. Ernest Marples): I should not consider it right to grant any such general exemption.
    Mr. Johnson: Is the Minister aware that it is not so much a question of free parking as being able to park at all, as many parking places are nearly always occupied? Will my right hon. Friend consider making regulations for doctors visiting their patients somewhat on the lines of those for commercial vehicles when loading and unloading?
    Mr. Marples: That is another question. The Question on the Order Paper refers to free parking of cars in parking meter zones. That is an entirely different question.
    Mr. Lipton: Will the Minister accept as a general principle that it is dangerous and undesirable to have any privileged class of motorists and that all motorists should be treated in exactly the same way?
    Mr. Marples: That is what all motorists tell me.

    Accidents
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Transport how many road accidents occurred in Staffordshire during the Easter week-end 1960, compared with 1959 and 1958.
    Mr. Marples: One hundred and seventeen road accidents resulting in death or personal injury occurred in Staffordshire between Thursday, 14th April, and Easter Monday, 18th April, 1960, inclusive. Comparative figures for Easter 1959 and 1958 were 113 and 87 respectively.
    Mr. Swingler: Is it not a fact that there has been some increase in the number of accidents during the last weekend? Would the Minister be kind enough to call for a review in his Department of the road safety schemes recently put up by certain local authorities in Staffordshire and either turned down or deferred by his Department?
    Mr. Marples: If the hon. Gentleman will send me particulars, I will look into them. I am bound to point out that although the general accidents increased from 113 to 117, the deaths were reduced from 8 in 1959 to 3 in 1960.
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Transport whether he will make a statement on the road accidents which occurred in Great Britain during the Easter holidays, and on his proposals to deal with the serious position shown by the nature and extent of these accidents; and what increase he contemplates making, as a result, in the plans for road building.
    Mr. Marples: The available information shows that in England and Wales 87 people died in road accidents at Easter. This compares with 71 deaths at Easter, 1959, and 81 at Easter, 1958. I am examining urgently additional measures to deal with this situation. The road work programme will be so developed as to reduce the risk of accidents caused by a failure of the human element.
    Mr. Janner: Is the Minister aware that there is considerable anxiety throughout the whole country about the increasing rate of accidents, and does he think that he would do well to have a wider vision about the whole matter and see to it that a large and sufficient road scheme is undertaken, perhaps considering some of the proposals advanced by my hon. Friends the Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) and the Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish)?
    Mr. Marples: A road scheme by itself is not enough.
    Mr. Janner: Without it. matters become worse.
    Mr. Marples: The real crux of the matter is that mechanical failures and road failures are not, in my view, as important as the human failures, and these are things which cannot be legislated for; it is selfishness, sometimes,

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    and the difficulties of human beings which make for accidents. I am bound to say that there has been exaggeration in this respect. Let us have it in perspective. I agree that, whatever deaths —[Interruption.] This is really very important. During Easter of this year, in England and Wales, on each of the five days there were 174 deaths. In 1959, on every day in the year, there were 17 9 deaths. I quite agree that it is not good enough, but certainly it is not bad compared with 1959.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: My right hon. Friend has confirmed that the number of deaths over Easter was round about the average for the year. Will he confirm, also, that the number of deaths was about equal to the average for 1938, and, although the amount of traffic has doubled in the intervening period, the position as regards accidents is relatively better than it was before the war? Does my right hon. Friend conclude from that that the measures we are taking in education, enforcement, engineering, and so forth are on the right lines but an intensification of them would reduce accidents further?
    Mr. Marples: I agree that, pro rata, taking into account the number of cars on the road, the position is now better than it was before the war. But that cannot be considered satisfactory; as long as anybody is killed, it is not satisfactory. We must pursue the methods we are now doing.
    Mr. Benn: Is the Minister aware that, although his figures are factually correct, the complaint of the public is that the average number of deaths is too high and the Government could do more in this respect? It is not only a matter of the human factor. Does he propose to take any action between now and Whit-sun to bring in additional road safety measures, and, if so, when will he announce them?
    Mr. Marples: There will be quite a number of measures announced, but I am bound to point out that the hon. Gentleman himself did a disservice to the country when he said that the reduced number of deaths at Easter was a national disaster although it was less than it was last year. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] That sort of panic measure does not help a situation which is very difficult.

    Lancaster and Preston By-passes (Traffic Congestion)
    Mr. Holtasked the Minister of Transport what report he has received from the Lancashire county police on the causes of the traffic jams on the Lancaster and Preston by-passes on Easter Monday; and what action he proposes to take to prevent their recurrence.
    Mr. Marples: A letter has been received from the Chief Constable of Lancashire about the congestion which delayed traffic at the terminals of both the Lancaster and the Preston by-passes during Easter. Proposals for improving conditions in future are now being urgently examined.
    Mr. Holt: Will the Minister agree that the real problem here is that two motorways are joined by a 14-mile length of trunk road which is quite inadequate? This is really the piecemeal development to which I referred in a Question to the Prime Minister yesterday. Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that this piecemeal development of a motorway system is undesirable, and can he take steps to avoid it in future?
    Mr. Marples: Any development of a system in this country is bound to be piecemeal in some parts. We simply cannot go smoothly over the whole country. One is bound to have difficulties. The ultimate answer will be roadworks on the Lancaster by-pass, the Preston bypass, the terminals and so on. In the meantime, there are bound to be difficulties whatever anybody may try to do.

  MINISTRY OF DEFENCE

    Blue Streak Missile
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Defence on what date it was estimated that the full development of the Blue Streak missile would cost more than £500 million.
    The Minister of Defence (Mr. Harold Watkinson): Estimates of the cost of weapon projects are revised from time to time in the light of technical and strategic developments. These have for some time shown that the total Blue Streak programme, including not only development but also production and the construction of operational sites, would cost a sum of the order of £500 million.
    Mr. Swingler: I do not wish in any way to trespass on the discussion which is to begin in a few minutes, but did it ever occur to anybody in the Government or the Departments to suggest that this was a sum that the nation could not possibly afford?
    Mr. Watkinson: As the hon. Gentleman rightly says, that is a matter which can be debated shortly. I am, however, only too anxious to give all the facts which I have, and these show, as I have said, that, as with most large projects, the cost built up over a period of years, and it was certainly, I should say, over twelve months ago that it was known that it would cost £500 million. But, as I shall show, perhaps, on another occasion, this is not necessarily an excessive burden on the economy.

    EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state British policy relating to the European Court of Human Rights; why Great Britain has not yet ratified the relevant Convention; and what steps she is taking to do so.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Robert Allan): The United Kingdom was the first country to ratify the European Convention on Human Rights, Section IV of which deals with the setting up of the European Court of Human Rights. Article 46 provides for the optional acceptance by member Governments of the compulsory jurisdiction of the Court. Her Majesty's Government have not exercised this option. They adhere to the procedure under Article 32, whereby cases are submitted by the Commission of Human Rights to the Committee of Ministers for a decision.
    Mr. Hughes: Is it not important that Britain, with her great traditions in these matters, should give a moral and political lead to the rest of the world, especially at the present time when millions of people are being denied human rights on false doctrines and specious pretexts, particularly in South Africa?
    Mr. Allan: I do not think that the hon. and learned Gentleman has it right.
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    The procedure under Article 32, the one which we adopt, is equally effective and equally binding as that under Article 46, which goes to the Court. There is no difference.
    Mr. Paget: Are we not in certain difficulties in this matter until we introduce an aliens law which conforms with the Charter? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that our aliens law as it stands at present is in flagrant contradiction with Article after Article of the Charter?
    Mr. Allan: That question is quite different from the one on the Order Paper.

    LAW OF THE SEA (CONFERENCE)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is aware that the Icelandic delegate at the Geneva Conference on the Law of the Sea rejected the United States-Canadian-British compromise on the ground that it would prejudice and deplete the spawning grounds and thereby injure the fisheries of many of the nations concerned; if he will state the scientific answer to this; whether that scientific answer was put forward at the Geneva Conference; and with what result.
    Mr. R. Allan: The statement to which the hon. and learned Gentleman refers was made by the Icelandic delegate in support of his own Government's proposal that certain States should enjoy preferential fishing rights outside their exclusive fishery limits. I am advised that there is no scientific basis for this, certainly in respect of the cod stocks which form the major part of the catch in the waters off Iceland. This was made clear by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in his speech to the Conference on 25th April. On 26th April, the Conference rejected the Icelandic proposal.
    Mr. Hughes: Why was not that made clear at Geneva? Does the hon. Gentleman realise that Britain is losing economically and otherwise by the failure of the Government to agree with the other nations at Geneva?
    Mr. Allan: I have just said that it was made clear at Geneva by a speech of

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    my right hon. Friend. It is quite untrue to say that it is this Government who have failed to agree. In numerous speeches my right hon. Friend made clear how willing we were to reach an agreement and how prepared he and the industry were to make sacrifices to obtain it.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Retired Civil Servants (Expectation of Life)
    Sir P. Agnewasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the average time that established civil servants live to draw their pensions after retirement.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sir Edward Boyle): The estimated average for those retiring on age grounds is 14 years for a man and 20 years for a woman.

  MINISTRY OF AVIATION

    Blue Streak Missile (Contracts)
    Mr. Rankinasked the Minister of Aviation whether he proposes to compensate the De Havilland Aircraft Company for losses sustained by his decision to abandon Blue Streak; and to what extent.
    The Minister of Aviation (Mr. Duncan Sandys): Any payments due as a result of this change will be a matter for negotiation between my Department and the firms concerned in accordance with the terms of their contracts.
    Mr. Rankin: That does not tell us very much, and I hope that in due course we shall hear more from the Minister about the extent of compensation. In the meantime, can he give us any idea of what the loss will be, in addition to the £65 million given by the Minister of Defence, on the run-down of this project, and can he say whether or not there will be compensation to the Australian Government? Also, will he tell us what attempt will be made to find other jobs for the 80,000 men who will be displaced as a result of the Government's foolish policy?
    Mr. Sandys: The Question on the Order Paper deals with payments to the
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    firms. I will deal with that. This is a matter which will have to be negotiated with the firms, and I do not think that it would very much help my negotiations if I were to forecast in advance what the outcome was likely to be.
    Mr. Rankin: The right hon. Gentleman has some responsibility for the men because a political decision has been taken. In view of the unemployment which may be caused, will the Government accept responsibility for finding jobs for the men who will be displaced?
    Mr. Speaker: This Question is directed specifically to compensation to the company. Nothing has happened which causes the other matters to arise.
    Mr. Lipton: May we have an undertaking from the Minister that in due course the House will be told the amount spent from public funds by way of compensation?
    Mr. Sandys: Of course.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (CENSURE MOTION)
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. R. A. Butler): With permission, I will make a short statement on business.
Following the exchanges which took place yesterday, there have been conversations through the usual channels and it has been agreed that the debate on the Opposition Motion relating to the Blue Streak missile should occupy the whole of the Sitting today until ten o'clock.
Government business will, therefore, be rearranged as follows:
Tonight, after the debate on the Blue Streak missile, we shall ask the House to take the Third Reading of the International Development Association Bill, and also the Second Readings of the three Charity Bills which are in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Sir H. Linstead).
Tomorrow, Thursday, after the Second Reading of the Charities Bill [Lords], which we hope to obtain by about eight o'clock, we shall proceed with the Report and Third Reading of the Civil Aviation (Licensing) Bill.
I hope that these arrangements will meet the general wishes of the House.

LONG-RANGE BALLISTIC MISSILE (BLUE STREAK)
3.31 p.m.
Mr. George Brown: I beg to move,
That this House deplores the refusal of the Government to establish a Committee of Inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the initiation, continuance and cancellation of the Blue Streak missile which has involved the expenditure of a large amount of public money on a project long believed and now officially declared to be of no military value.
I suppose that I should start with a word of sympathy to the present Minister of Defence and perhaps even extend it to the Ministers who occupied his position before him. In a way, the present Minister is in the awkward position of having to take the burden of the bowling and to stand up to the fast ones that come for a decision on a problem which was not of his own making at all. To that extent, it is for him a rather peculiar situation.
I think that even for the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor, the present Minister of Aviation, who will figure more prominently in this debate, there is this to be said. On an issue as complicated and difficult as this, where movements of technological development are as fast as they are in this sphere, he would be a foolish man who would not admit that it is quite easy to make a mistake and to be wrong. If researches were made into all our past speeches, as has happened with some of them, I do not think that anyone would say that he is sure that, looking back on it, nowhere in the record has he not said things that he should not have said. It is right that that should be said and to offer to share what sympathy there is in that respect.
That gives me the opportunity to say that our criticism against Ministers is not that they made mistakes in an area where mistakes are at least possible. Our criticism today is that they persisted in an error of judgment, which, whatever may be said in mitigation of its original commission, they persisted in long after it became apparent to almost everybody that it would turn out to be a costly and abortive failure.
Since the beginning of 1958, we on this side of the House have had a growing conviction that that was so. At the beginning of 1958, when the Minister
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first announced that we were producing this particular type of missile, we sounded warnings, as I shall show. In the middle of 1958 we reinforced them and from the beginning of 1959 we went on record as being firmly convinced that it was a mistake. We have held that view ever since the beginning of 1959.
There is a major criticism that the Minister of Aviation and his colleagues, and notably the Prime Minister, have to meet. After all, the Prime Minister is Chairman of the Defence Committee of the Cabinet. He has been the Prime Minister in a very real sense in all major defence decisions for some years. Only a year or so ago he altered the defence set-up from what it had been and demoted the position of the Minister of Defence and correspondingly raised his own. This is as much a criticism of the Prime Minister as it is of any other Minister. The criticism that they have to face is that they committed this enormous blunder over a long period against all the evidence.
I do not think that it is unfair to say that the decision to go forward with Blue Streak must be a blunder of an unprecedented size. The cost of it—and I will have a word to say about figures in a moment—is enormous, but, even more than that, it has the gravest and most far-reaching consequences to which far less than justice has been done by any Minister in his comments on it. We believe that an inquiry is essential to reassure the public, who badly need reassuring, about the way in which we are handling this terrible area of national policy. We need an inquiry, too, to establish the facts.
I hope that the Government will forgive me for saying that I believe that their lack of candour—I use the word deliberately; I can think of no other—at every stage in this dispute has itself helped to make the case for an inquiry to establish the facts. We have not been given candid explanations of what was happening or why, even up to this moment.
Let me deal with the argument about security. Some people have said that security is involved here and that we cannot have an inquiry into these things because of their nature. It has been announced that Blue Streak is no longer a military project. It has been announced that it no longer has any military

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purpose. We are now considering whether it has a civilian purpose. In the beginning, it was only a British modification of an American weapon, the Atlas. Nearly all the details of the Atlas have been published. It therefore does not seem that the argument about security can possibly be applied except to save the skins of Ministers.
No harm can be done by an inquiry into a weapon that is no longer a military issue. If it is used at all, it will be used only for civilian purposes. No doubt it is already in the process—I think that this is understood in Whitehall—of being declassified. I therefore hope that we shall not be bludgeoned with the argument of security, which does not seem to me to apply.
I was a little amused this morning, on reading some of the newspapers that normally support the Conservative Party, to see how much they think that we are in the wrong and in the dark. One of them went so far as to suggest that the Motion must be directed against me. If that is so, and if there is any belief in it anywhere, I should have thought that that was an additional reason for setting up a committee of inquiry. Unlike the Government, I would fully welcome it. If my agreement to it would be any encouragement in setting it up, I immediately offer it.
I want to recall the 'thirties to the minds of hon. Members. Throughout the 'thirties there was the same suspicion of blundering, of spending money ineffectively, of backing the wrong horses and of failing to provide the right things for our defence. The right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) persistently tried to persuade the House, and especially the great majority of Members on the benches opposite, that issues ought to be inquired into, that Ministers were not being candid, that the situation was not as Ministers said it was, that if war ever came and if, unhappily, we ever needed our defences, we would find ourselves naked and without them. Because he could never persuade the majority of hon. Members opposite of the need for an inquiry, we never found out how right he was until the day came, and the hardware was not there. I say to Tory Members that if they refuse to enter into or help us to achieve an inquiry in a case like this,
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they run the very great risk of supinely repeating the whole unhappy history of the 'thirties
We can all say that we hope that the case will never have to be proved. God, how we all hope that. We hoped it then, in the 'thirties. It is no use saying that we hope that it will not have to be proved if we then sit back and permit these things to happen. We should not spend the money, devote the resources and make the effort unless we try to see that we spend the money, make the effort and direct the resources properly, and be willing to find out what happens to them when, quite clearly, they have been improperly used. I should have thought that unless we are like the Bourbons and learn nothing at all from history, the case for an inquiry is very strongly supported even by recent history, to which hon. Members in the House can testify.
There are two issues upon which there can be no dispute. First, that the Blue Streak clearly was a mistake. There can be no argument about it; one does not have to prove it. We know that the cost has been immense. Blue Streak has now turned out to be abortive; it will never come into use—it was a mistake. Secondly, the present Minister of Aviation had personal responsibility at every important point. He had clear personal responsibility for the decision effectively to go ahead. I do not mean by that that the idea began in his day; I doubt whether it did. I have a feeling that the probable parent of the idea is the present Prime Minister. I think that the study of the idea almost certainly began before the right hon. Gentleman became Minister of Defence.
The Minister of Aviation (Mr. Duncan Sandys): I should like to get one thing quite clear. The right hon. Gentleman says that Blue Streak was clearly a mistake. Will he be quite precise and say whether he means that Blue Streak or a fixed land-based rocket ought never to have been started?
Mr. Brown: I mean that Blue Streak was a mistake.
Mr. Sandys: In starting?
Mr. Brown: I mean that Blue Streak ought never to have gone ahead.
Mr. Sandys: Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that it was a mistake to start it?
Mr. Brown: The Minister must have it in my way and answer it in his own way. If the intention in going ahead with a missile is to get a usable missile in the end, and that, presumably, is the intention, the fact that the Government have to announce, after they have spent £100 million on it, that we cannot have it makes the decision to go ahead with it a mistake.
Whether one can forgive a mistake in starting, I do not know. It depends on the balance of the argument then. But what one cannot forgive is the mistake in going on with it. It was a mistake in starting. It has to be that, because if it is a failure it is a mistake. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] If I set out to walk from here to there and do not get there, it is a mistake to start.
I make a distinction between the degree of culpability of embarking on an effort if there is, so far as one can tell at that time, a balance of argument for doing it, and the degree of culpability I attach to the decision to go on with it long after it has become clear that one has make a mistake. I do not say that the full sin is in the decision to start. The full sin is in the decision to go on with it. Clearly, something which has failed was a mistake to start with.
I should have thought that it is clear that the Minister of Aviation had personal responsibility for the decision to go ahead in any effective sense, although, as I say, I suspect that the thing began before his day. The decision to persist in it is his personal cross in this matter —and on that I should have thought there was no doubt. I think that he bears personal responsibility for expenditure on the missile. In such a situation, he either has to make good a plea that all the way through he was supported by so many other advisers and Ministers that his is only a part of a collective responsibility, or, in a failure of this size, he has to pay the penalty when the failure is announced.
I well remember that the then Minister of Agriculture paid the penalty for Crichel Down over an issue of administrative failure for which he personally had no responsibility. I well remember
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it, beause I had the melancholy task of speaking in the House after he had made his announcement. In this case, there is the utmost personal responsibility. There is an inescapable personal responsibility. The Minister has been very pleased to claim credit for Blue Streak, and rather boast about it, and I should have thought that the case for his accepting the consequences of his failure is a very great one. Instead, no one goes, the waste of money is shrugged off. We are given the usual profligate spender's explanation, "I spent £100 million on something which I am not going to use for the purpose which I thought I was, but I will now spend a bit more on it and use it for some other purpose. Therefore, the spending of £100 million is not an expenditure for which I should be criticised."
That is the profligate's explanation every time we ask him to realise what he is doing. The Minister of Defence improves upon that. He goes on to tell us, "After all, by stopping it now we are only spending £100 million and we have, in fact, saved £400 million." That is an argument which we would not think the Minister of Aviation would proceed with today.
The waste of money is shrugged off and we are threatened with greater expenditure now by keeping Blue Streak for another purpose. Lost time on research and development is ignored and the effects on our future defence and foreign policy are hardly mentioned at all. The decision was not even candidly announced in a White Paper in February. All that we were told then was that we were not going to rely exclusively on a fixed site missile. In the Minister of Defence's speech in March he told us that he wanted to know a great deal more before he could make up his mind. He wanted to know more about the Polaris, more about the Skybolt, and he had accepted an invitation to go to America to meet Mr. Gates to find out more and to make up his mind.
Without going to America, without seeing anything of the Polaris, without seeing the Skybolt and, as far as I know, without meeting Mr. Gates, he told us in April what, in March, we were told he was not in a position to do, and what, in February, we were told was not to be done at all, but simply that we were to rely exclusively on it. The

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decision was not even candidly announced, let alone explained afterwards.
I believe that the Minister of Aviation cannot plead "Not guilty" here. A plea of "Not guilty" is not open to him. He is guilty of persisting with a rocket which has failed to work and which has cost us large sums of money. The best that he can do is to offer a plea of mitigation. A plea of mitigation is what we should examine. He can ask whether his original decision was right in the light of his then knowledge. He can claim that he had no reasonable grounds to doubt the decision in the meantime. He can claim that everyone else was wrong, if he feels that will help him.
I feel that on these three possible defences open to him the answers are as follows. I cannot say whether the original decision to start it was right. It has been a failure in the sense that it has failed. In that sense, it was a mistake. I do not know what the balance of arguments then presented was. It can be shown that right from 1957 hon. Members in the House, including myself, were arguing against fixed-site liquid-fuelled rockets on the ground that they were far too vulnerable.
When, in 1957, the Minister announced the decision, which the Prime Minister had taken with the President of the United States, to install Thors in this country, we opposed it on the ground, among others, that they were far too vulnerable to developing Russian rocketry, because they were fixed-site rockets relying on liquid fuel. There were powerful arguments against even the original decision to start.
What is true is that the advice which continually reached us was against the idea. Clearly, the Opposition can have only some of the advice. We cannot possibly be given as much as the Minister of Defence received. All the advice which reached us at the time, much of it from people who must be presumed to be advising the Minister, condemned the idea of fixed-site liquid-fuelled rockets, and, in particular, condemned the idea of Blue Streak immediately after the Minister made that announcement. I commented just now on whether we were all wrong. The record stands. Every defence debate since 1958 will show that we were not wrong.
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I will now quickly examine the history, as far as we can establish it, and try to see what it shows. Originally, it was bedded in two great fallacies, for which the present Prime Minister bears a more than relative degree of personal responsibility. One was his belief in the great savings which this would permit. I referred to this the other day. I referred to his "pipedream" speech when he went to the Foreign Press Association and canvassed the enormous savings which were obviously in his mind and which he was hoping to make. His period at the Ministry of Defence was the period when the idea was born—
Mr. George Wigg: Who?
Mr. Brown: The Prime Minister.
Mr. Wigg: He was not Minister of Defence when he made that speech.
Mr. Brown: I understand that. During his period at the Ministry of Defence the idea got into his mind that this was the way in which to go ahead and save a great deal of money. That was really how the decision to hurry on with it was taken. That was the first fallacy. From the Prime Minister's "pipedream" speech one has only to read again the 1957 White Paper on Defence to see how completely, all the way through, that was coloured by this conception.
The second fallacy underlying this was the infamous doctrine of nuclear warfare embedded in paragraph 12 of the 1958 White Paper. This is the personal responsibility of the Minister of Aviation. This was the doctrine in which we committed ourselves to the view that we would be likely to use the H-bomb first and, therefore, since we would be using it first, the questions of vulnerability and maintaining it as a credible threat of retaliation dad not arise. We would be using it first. We would be getting it off first. Therefore, we would be able to take risks with vulnerability. We would be able to take risks about pinpointing and saturation which obviously could not be taken if it was being maintained only as a credible deterrent.
It is a terribly fascinating and chastening exercise to re-read the defence debates of 1957, 1958 and 1959. I have read them all again. I have never claimed that I am a great performer at

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the Dispatch Box. However badly I did from this Box, I tried desperately hard to bring home to the Minister of Defence and the Prime Minister the absolute folly of this posture on nuclear warfare.
All we got for our pains—they read very foolishly now—was a whole collection of adolescent jokes about the Opposition, our differences among ourselves, and our attempts to deal with the white area and the grey area. These jokes came from the Prime Minister, delivered in that rather special fashion of his. At no stage did we have a glimpse that either he or the present Minister of Aviation even saw the beginnings of the point that a thermo-nuclear warhead or bomb was never a "strike first" weapon for this country and that, if there ever had been any argument in favour of it, it could not be on those grounds. Therefore, the credibility of its retaliatory use bad to be built up. That was the very thing which could not be built up if it was in a position to be destroyed straight away before one got round to considering what to do with it.
This was the second underlying fallacy which led the Minister of Aviation to go on with this rocket. It was because he did not understand the position. Not only did he not understand what we were arguing about here, but he did not understand what his own Service advisers were saying to him. He did not ever get to the bottom of what was worrying the Air Force. He was blind to all the arguments. This was why the advice reaching us did not make the impact on him which it made on us. He never saw the basic point of 'the advice. It began over the Thors.
Incidentally, I have received some moving letters from people living on the edge of Thor rocket sites. I received a very good letter, in particular, from a gentleman whose name I will not mention, but who is known to many hon. Members. He lives in Yorkshire. He says, "Whatever the Government say about Blue Streak must apply even more forcibly to the Thor, because Blue Streak was at least going underground. The Thors are to be above ground. I am living on the edge of it. Will you ask the Minister for me just where I stand in this matter now?"
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Does the Minister intend to retain the much more vulnerable rocket, having said that he will not retain the less vulnerable one? Does it do any more, as he said the other day, than attract attack to the area where it is and to the people living there? The absolute corollary of what the Government have now decided about Blue Streak is that they must accept our advice and take the Thors away.
Mr. Ellis Smith: It applies to the whole of Britain.
Mr. Brown: At the beginning of 1958 we first had news of our own rocket. It was not then given a name. It was announced in the 1958 White Paper. I believe that throughout 1958 the evidence in favour of the rockets being mobile, if we were to have them, and in favour of them using solid fuel rather than liquid fuel, grew and grew, as did the evidence of the accuracy of Russian rocketry. Indeed, once in that period the Minister slowed it down. At the beginning, it did not go ahead quite as fast. The expenditure did not build up at the beginning. There was a period when he slowed it down, and when money was withheld. I referred to it in the House once during that year. I do not know exactly when Sir Richard Powell's Committee was first set up. It was subsequently shut down, but it re-started and finally recommended in favour of this. The Committee was first set up a long time ago.
It is absurd of Ministers to claim that the doubts and dangers became apparent only very recently. The Minister of Defence rather seemed to claim that on 3rd April. I gained the impression that the Minister of Aviation claimed that when he came back from his trip to the Continent. I rather gained the impression that the decision had been taken as soon as their intelligence warned them of Russian rocketry advance and of the general vulnerability of fixed-site rockets and of the practicability, to use the Minister's words, of delivering from a moving platform.
This cannot be upheld. I am not at liberty to quote those who advise me. The House must accept it from me that all through that year I was receiving lots and lots of advice from people whom it was inconceivable to believe were not

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also talking to the Minister. There were volumes of published material on this subject.
I have outside the Chamber—I did not bother to bring it in with me—pile after pile of published comments, all of which add up to the same story. The head of the American Air Force, General White, testifying to the United States Congress in the autumn of 1958, forecast the date by which fixed-site rockets would be too vulnerable to use, and he has turned out to be exactly right. This was in the autumn of 1958. The evidence was published very soon afterwards, and we ourselves had it in an ordinary published document in the spring of 1959. The Minister must have had it before then. The big developments in Russian rocketry and the Sputniks took place in 1957, not 1958, 1959 or 1960; it was 1957 when we first had clear evidence of the change in that respect.
The Service chiefs fought hard to get out of this situation. The Secretary of State for Air will remember the debate in the House about "Operation Prospect". I then took the view that Service chiefs ought not to argue in public with their Ministers. What was the purpose of "Operation Prospect"? What were the air marshals saying? What did Air Marshal Kyle say? He wished to press the point that the rocket had to be mobile and to be invulnerable, and of course he pressed the point that the Air Force was the best place to have it. He virtually stated a specification for a Skybolt in "Operation Prospect".
The Service chiefs spoke in public, against all our traditions, taking that risk in order to get round the Ministers whom they could not persuade in private. There was virtually nobody in the Service Departments at that time who was not taking the trouble to tell anybody about it who would listen. I have minuted notes of receptions and of conversations in which leading Service men made only the reservation, "Do not quote me". They took no trouble to avoid being seen talking to me and urging this policy on me. Other senior Service advisers had articles written in leading journals with only the thinnest of pseudonyms hiding the authority behind them and urging the same points on the Minister.
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The only conflict which the Minister faced was between those who said that the weapon should be seaborne, Polaris, and those who said that it should be an airborne weapon to keep the Air Force in being. There was that conflict, but the Minister had no other conflict, for the whole of the evidence at that time was in favour of mobility and of solid fuel.
The House and the public are entitled to know why it was that none of this evidence was reflected in Government policy. Was the evidence suppressed? Does the Minister claim that he did not get it and that it was not getting through to him? Does he claim that he was not able to get his answers across? Does he claim that he was obstructed? We feel that we ought to be told, but we are extremely unlikely to be told by these Ministers, and it therefore seems to us that an inquiry is the only way out of the difficulty.
Should I be putting it too high if I said that all through that period it was a case of the Minister of Defence and his then Scientific Adviser against almost all the entire field? There is this to be said for Sir Frederick Brundrett, who was then Scientific Adviser, but who has now retired: he at least is not claiming that anything has changed. In his lecture to the Royal United Service Institution the other day he stood by the decision over Blue Streak. He continued to defend it with the argument which seemed valid to him at the time, and he brusquely denied the Minister's suggestion that things had changed in the spring of this year. He said, "All that we know now we knew a year ago". He said that in his view he and the Minister were right a year ago and, therefore, must still be right. It is the Minister who is introducing the argument that something has changed and that some new evidence has become available. That claim, as far as I can see, is clearly turned down by the only other distinguished figure who took the view on Blue Streak which the Minister took.
We have put our view of the alternative many times in the House. It always involved a degree of interdependence— not dependence—and a sharing of the rocketry effort. I repeated that recently in the debate on Fylingdales, when I

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suggested that we ought to strike a bargain on these lines when we came to the early radar warning system in this country.
It is said that the coming of Skybolt is a new piece of knowledge. It is claimed that this is something about which we could not have known a year ago. In my belief, this is not true, either. It is quite true that Polaris, the seaborne missile, received most of the attention a year ago, and in my limited knowledge it has always been the weapon for which I thought there were the best arguments. But we knew about a Skybolt missile over a year ago. It is not true to say that we did not know about it. I will not bother the House with the details, but I have here a note which was given to me on the subject. It is dated 27th January, 1959, and it gives me the data about the Skyrocket, which then had a different name altogether, its potentiality, its objects, its likely date of coming into production and the sort of thing it was.
If I was getting the information, as I repeat, in January, 1959, it must have been with Ministers before then. Or if Ministers are not getting the information that even the Opposition are getting, that of itself entitles us to an inquiry to find out what is going on; and that would be even more terrifying.
We knew about it, as I have said. With great respect to the Minister, Skybolt is no more of a reality today than it was a year ago. A little more paper work has been done on it, perhaps, but it still does not exist. We still have no information about when it will exist, or if it will exist. We still have no more than somebody's guess as to what its performance will be. I assert that there has been no new information at all.
The conclusion can only be, therefore, that all the information was available, that it was all opposed to going on with Blue Streak and that the Minister nevertheless persisted with Blue Streak for eighteen months. The point which I want to make is that it was during those eighteen months that the bulk of the expenditure built up. The expenditure did not grow much in the first year; it grew in the last eighteen months, when Woomera, Spadeadam, the de Havilland expansion, and all the rest of it went on. It is, therefore, the Minister's
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determination to persist with the project, against the weight of the evidence, which is the basic accusation which we make against him.
There is an additional reason for an inquiry to find out why and how all this happened. It is that the Minister is still in a position to be a very expensive Minister if we do not find out how he came to make that kind of decision and why he made it. We must all face the fact that he is still in a position to go on making other decisions which will be at least as costly and at least as dangerous.
May I turn for a moment to the cost? I ask the Minister of Defence straight out—are not the Government being equally lacking in candour with us about the cost to date of this rocket as they have been about everything else connected with its cancellation? Is the figure £65 million? The other day I offered the guess that £100 million would be a conservative estimate. Would not the Minister like to be sure that he could settle for £120 million, or £130 million? Will he tell us what he is including in his £65 million, if he sticks to that figure? If he takes the view that £65 million does not matter, he could take the view that £120 million does not matter either. If £65 million is nothing, then twice nothing is still nothing; I accept that. But it would be a very new doctrine for the House and for the country to accept that sums of this order do not matter.
Will the Minister tell us whether he persists in the figure of £65 million? I feel quite sure that if he does he will be caught out on this. If he persists in it, will he tell us how much of the cost of Woomera he is putting into that figure? The Australians have spent about £60 million of their own money on Woomera and we must have spent an equal sum on it. Much of that has no other purpose than for the rocket with a range of 1,500 to 2,000 miles. How much of the total cost of Woomera is the right hon. Gentleman writing off on account of Blue Streak?
That doubtfully named—if we had only had the prescience to know it, that accurately named place—Spadeadam Waste has no other purpose than for Blue Streak. It cannot deal with solid-fuel motors, even if we wanted it to do so.

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To convert it would cost a vast sum of money, I am told. How much of the cost of Spadeadam Waste is in the Minister's £65 million? It cost over £20 million by itself to provide. It is only wanted for Blue Streak. The whole of it should go in, and yet the Minister cannot put in the whole of it and still keep to his £65 million.
How much has the Minister put in for cancellation costs? Whatever we do about space use, cancellation costs will have to be paid. I am told by those who advise me, who can easily be wrong, that about £25 million will be required for the cancellation costs of de Havillands, Rolls-Royce and Sperry's. How much of that £25 million went into his £65 million? Is not the answer that the right hon. Gentleman will not want to stick to £65 million, and are we not entitled to know the figure? If he will not give us the figure, and will not give us the breakdown, are we not entitled to have an inquiry to get at it, despite his refusal? Should we not know?
Now I will deal with the other point, that the cost is a small thing. Someone has floated the story this morning that it is only 1·8 per cent. of the defence expenditure and that is the sort of waste we ought to be able to carry along with us. All right. What percentage of the defence expenditure would an increase of the old-age pension be? And if we can carry 1·8 per cent. and not worry so long as it does not exceed that figure, why not pay that? Why not apply this doctrine to every other piece of expenditure?
What about the housing subsidy? What about subsidising the rate of interest on house building? If the doctrine is that so long as it does not exceed 1·8 per cent. of the defence budget we can shrug it off, let us do everything that does not cost more than that. It is really a silly argument, and even Tories would not produce such desperately unhappy arguments unless they were really very hard put to it to defend themselves in this situation.
I have looked at the history and, briefly, at the cost. I turn now, in conclusion, to the consequences which are perhaps the gravest and the most far-reaching of all, in my view not only for defence, but, also, if they are as great as I suspect, for the foreign policy of this country from here on. This is not a
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debate to range over that wide field, and the reason why those who are responsible for putting down the Motion are not choosing this occasion to range over that wide field is that we can think of nothing that the Minister of Aviation or the Prime Minister would more like than to have all these other issues hidden in a general debate in which they could avoid having to reply to the specific issues.
We believe that the House must shortly debate—perhaps this will take the grin off the face of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation—as my right hon. Friend said yesterday, the whole consequential issues of defence and foreign policy arising out of this situation. As my right hon. Friend said yesterday, the Opposition will debate them and we shall bring the Government to account for them. For the moment we are not letting the Government get out of the immediate issues of cost, culpability and incompetence which we think arise.
However, by not referring to the consequences I do not want to give the impression that I underestimate how grave they are, so I shall say a few words about them. I want to warn the House in the clearest terms I can manage, and the Tories especially, that we cannot have a change of this magnitude, after the loss of this period of vital years of research and development, and imagine that basic policy can remain the same, as though nothing has happened. It just cannot be so. This is no new thought. I put this into what I had to say in the defence debate earlier this year, and I warned the House that, if it turned out that this should be so, this would then be the consequence and we would have to face the House with it.
If this decision has the consequence I suspect, which I have briefly canvassed, but not argued today, it must in due course raise the question of the independent British deterrent. The Prime Minister can smile, the Minister of Defence can give us an airy assurance "Of course we can have it; we are going to keep it", but frankly, we cannot expect things to go on the same once we have taken a decision which is bound to commit the future five or ten years ahead.
The tragedy of this business is that nobody can put it right. A situation of this order, no matter who succeeds

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the present Government in five years' time, could just not be put right, because the decisions—or the lack of decisions— taken today commit us not only for 1965, but for 1970. Therefore, we have to rethink defence and foreign policy not only in the light of what exists today, but also in the light of what that majority is arranging shall be the position in 1970. I hope that none of my hon. Friends will provide the present Tory majority with the get-out that they would desperately like to have today. One can see it by looking at their faces.
I have accepted, at some cost one way and another, my share of the responsibility for a decision which I have thought right and for which I have stood. It has been at some cost. The abuse I do not mind at all; that I am used to; but the loss of confidence of friends inside, and, even more, outside, this House, to whom I have been attached and with whom I have worked over years, on this issue has been a big thing for me. I have done it because I thought it right, but even I cannot be expected to go in for a policy that has no chance of ever being successful. If it is no longer feasible, if it is destroyed, then it is not.
Can we have the independent deterrent? At this stage, I can only ask. What does the Minister of Defence say? He says about the new carrier, first, "We have not decided"; secondly, "We think more hopefully of Skybolt, which does not exist, than of Polaris, which does", and thirdly, "We understand that the Americans will sell it to us". What he does not say is, "We do not know when it will exist"—do we? He says, "We do not know whether it will exist"— do we? He says, "We do not know what it will cost, if and when it exists, and we do not know on what conditions it will be available to us." [An HON. MEMBER: "If at all."] If at all.
All we know is that the official spokesman of the State Department, Mr. Lincoln White, has issued a statement saying that the Americans understand that we have not yet made up our minds what we want, but that if and when it is available they will be willing to sell it to us. This is all that they have said. It cannot be available to us unconditionally, so whatever the terms we do not know about for a missile which does
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not exist, whatever the cost, the fact remains that it cannot be, when it comes, unconditional in the very nature of things. That much we do know.
The Mark II stand-off bomb, which might have bridged the gap, has been cancelled. Do we now know why the Minister of Defence was so "cagey" with me and gave me a lecture when I asked about the Mark II stand-off bomb in the last defence debate? If that were still in the programme, it might be claimed that the gap could be covered, but it is in the programme that has been cancelled. Other people might be glad, but I fear that a gap, during which we shall not have a credible means of delivering an independent British deterrent, seems now to be inevitable. We must remember that it is the credibility outside that matters and not the self-delusion in which we engage inside.
If this is true, then it changes much. The argument for maintaining an independent British deterrent for basic political reasons is one thing when we have it and can talk of maintaining it. The argument for going back into the business once we are out of it is altogether different by any test. [Interruption.] My hon. Friends will help everybody if they will make the points which they are equipped to make later and let me make mine. There is a difference on this. Everyone knows it and there is no reason why we should not be proud of the fact. It is because the party opposite kept up its monolithic attempt to show that it had no individual thoughts on this at all that got us ino the difficulty.
Those in the House, and the very many outside, who have always taken the view that the balance of argument was against an independent British deterrent will be glad if it has lapsed. I cannot take that view. I believe that it is dishonest, cynical and wrong. I maintain my view. I certainly could not applaud—if I am right in thinking so—the fact that Ministerial incompetence and blundering has destroyed a policy which, on balance, I thought was wise.
If this decision had been reached after a canvassing of the arguments, after weighing the balance of evidence, I could respect it even if I were not able to agree with it or accept it. But how can I accept it if, as I suspect, it came

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about not by the weighing of arguments, or by a cold calculation of where Britain is to stand, but because we drifted, over the years, into a position which we now feel that we cannot maintain because we realise that it was the wrong road from the beginning?
One reason that I have stood my ground in recent weeks—and I have been given much advice and have been out on a limb—is that I have always held the view that the Tory Party got away with much in the 1930s, and have ever since clouded the issues, by referring to what the Opposition were supposed to have said or done in those days. I was determined that so long as I had any opportunity here to influence it, there would be no chance of that happening this time. I have warned the Government that this was where they would get with Blue Streak. I have done my utmost to persuade them not to get to this position. I was determined that when they got there the responsibility would be 100 per cent. upon them.
If the consequences of this decision are as I suspect they are, then let us be quite clear that the responsibility is 100 per cent. on the Government and is not shared by us on these benches. It is important that this should be known. We shall canvass all this again and again and there will have to be really wide-ranging debate.
I point out at once that there is not a chance that people can say that we are not clear about this, or that some reasons have not been given for decisions we have taken, or which may have to be taken. This is not, as one hon. Member opposite said the other day, a storm in a teacup. It is the biggest Ministerial collapse of modern times. It has cost the taxpayers vast sums of money and it has come without any coherent thought or any plans to revise British policy to meet it. It may in the future bring about a new situation to which we may have to readjust ourselves.
Whatever our views on that, or the possibilities it opens up, we must all be worried about the processes by which we have reached this exit. We must all of us look for some assurance about the way things are to happen in the future while the present Administration are still in office. We can only censure a
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Government which behave—and I choose the term carefully—in such an irresponsible way, and can only seek an inquiry into the conduct of the Ministers who were most deeply concerned.
4.25 p.m.
Mr. Donald Wade: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I hope that it is for the convenience of the House that I raise this point of order now. As there is only one Amendment on the Order Paper, which is in the names of my hon. Friends and myself, and as a number of Members on the Opposition benches may perchance prefer that Amendment to the official Motion, may I ask you whether at any time during this debate it is your intention to call the Liberal Amendment?
[Leave out from "House" to end, and add "recognising that the gross waste of valuable resources on the abortive missile Blue Streak is the direct and not surprising result of present defence policy, deplores the statement by the Minister of Defence that Her Majesty's Government are to continue this policy of maintaining an independent British nuclear deterrent."]
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is quite right to ask me that. It is not my intention. I hope that the point of view may be presented in the course of the debate.
4.26 p.m.
The Minister of Defence (Mr. Harold Watkinson): The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) was kind enough, at the opening of the debate, to express his sympathy for me. I noticed that his shot and shell were passing to the right and to the left of me. I reciprocate his sympathy. I say that quite sincerely, because I think that "shadow" Defence Ministers as well as Ministers of Defence themselves bear a heavy burden. I will not embarrass the right hon Gentleman, or say other than this: I think that the line which he has taken—and he underestimated himself when he said that he was a poor performer at the Dispatch Box—is the right line. It is the line of all those who are trying to keep the peace in a very dangerous world. I would say this to those who do not agree with that: however sincere their motives—and I know

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they are sincere—they are doing a tragic disservice to the peace of the world.
I welcome this debate, as I said at the time when I made my statement which gave rise to it. I have read most defence debates, as the right hon. Gentleman appears to have done. All defence debates appear to take place on Motions of censure, but I shall not allow this one —and I believe this to be in the interest of the House—to throw me into a negative or defensive posture. I wish to give the House as many facts as I properly can. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to complain about lack of candour in what I have to say. It is only by canvassing as many of the facts as one properly can—and I mean real facts, for I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that around facts there is bound to be a vague area of conjecture by people who want to put forward a particular view—that one can see the inevitability of many decisions that have to be taken.
I will deal first, with the background to this decision to abandon Blue Streak, which, I agree, is an important one. Much of the right hon. Gentleman's shot and shell was rather misdirected, as I shall show, because perhaps I take a greater responsibility for this decision than he is aware of at the moment. The right hon. Gentleman has already said that he agrees with the decision, so the debate—and I think that he accepts this —is on the narrow but very important point of when the decision should have been taken.
I think that he led himself into an error in saying that it was a mistake ever to start this project at all. Perhaps it would be fairer for me to say that, on the whole, he withdrew from that position. I do not want to be other than fair in this, because I believe that it can be conclusively shown that it was right to start this project and that there was at that time general support for it and no voices raised against it—
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Oh.
Mr. Watkinson: I know that the hon. Gentleman's voice is always honestly and sincerely raised against any weapon of war at all. We all understand his position in this House.
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First, I want to make two background points plain. The first is that any decision —and I think that the whole House will agree—taken on defence by a British Government has to be part, with our allies, of the whole structure by which we hope to continue to maintain peace until we can attain disarmament. That means that decisions to abandon projects or particular weapons must, as far as possible, be seen against the deterrent posture of the West as a whole, because the West has to try to see that there is no deterrent gap along the complete sweep of our joint defence effort until disarmament can be achieved, as we sincerely hope that it may be. The timing of the decision on Blue Streak must be seen in relation to these requirements, as well as in relation to other requirements that I shall disclose.
The right hon. Gentleman ended on the note of the independent deterrent which is still today, as I understand it, a policy agreed by the Government and the Opposition—I do not know whether he is, or was, giving warning that he intends to change his position, but let me make our position clear. As I said in the last defence debate—and perhaps its significance was not then quite appreciated, so I repeat it—we have only recently settled a production programme for British-made nuclear warheads of advanced design for some years ahead. Therefore, from that point of view at least, the Government have no intention at all of abandoning their independent contribution to the deterrent power of the West—
Mr. E. Shinwell: What about testing?
Mr. Watkinson: I will come in due course to the question of the means of delivery.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) must have got a little out-of-date since he left the office of Minister of Defence, an office that he filled with considerable distinction at one time. These warheads do not have to be tested. We have adequate resources to continue to make a wide programme, as I said, of nuclear wax-heads of the most advanced design. I shall come in a moment to the problem of how they are delivered. I make it plain to the House that, by that action, the Government are certainly continuing

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a policy of producing an independent British-made nuclear weapon.
Let me turn now to the scale of the decision on Blue Streak on financial grounds. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper asked about the total cost. The figure I gave to the House, £65 million, is a perfectly accurate figure of the amount spent on this missile to date. As far as I can estimate—and I think that the House should pay some attention to what my right hon. Friend said in answer to a Question today, the other costs have yet to be negotiated— [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Certainly. I would say at the moment that a figure of at least £100 million is involved. I quite accept that, and that figure—and let us get this in proper scale—is 1½ per cent. of defence spendings over the last five years—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] That is what we have spent on a weapon that we do not now propose to develop further—
Mr. R. T. Paget Mr. R. T. Paget (Northampton) rose—
Mr. Watkinson: Perhaps I may be allowed just to finish this part of my speech and then I will give way— although, of course, we may use much of Blue Streak's present potential development for space research. Therefore, I want to go on with the background before coming to the actual logic of events. I want to be quite frank with the House, and to be quite clear about the cost. I have been clear. I say that, as far as I can estimate at the moment, the cost is £100 million, or 1½ per cent. of defence spending since the project started—
Mr. Woodrow Wyatt: Surely, the right hon. Gentleman has long ago negotiated the cost. The expenditure on Spadeadam and Woomera, and the various ancillary projects needed to get Blue Streak going, is not included in his estimate of £65 million on the missile itself, and not included in the £100 million of which he now tells us, because the £100 million is arrived at simply by adding the cost of cancelled contracts to the £65 million already spent.
Mr. Watkinson: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has raised that matter, because I want to be as informative as I
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can. The £65 million is the total expenditure on the project as a whole, and that certainly includes expenditure on Spadeadam as well—[HON. MEMBERS: "And Woomera?"]
Mr. Paget: Does the right hon. Gentleman include the cost of Fighter Command, which was kept in being solely to protect these rocket bases?
Mr. Watkinson: No, I do not—and I do not think that the House would expect me to—
Mr. Wigg Mr. Wigg rose—
Mr. Watkinson: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in a moment but, first, I think that I should get on a little further with my argument.
I have been quite clear on the cost of the project—
Mr. Wigg: I am obliged to the Minister for giving way now. Personally, I do not think that the cost is the important argument, but perhaps the Minister will address himself to this simple point. Would he give the House an assurance that the cost will not be more than £100 million?
Mr. Watkinson: For the very reason that my right hon. Friend gave earlier, the terminal costs have first to be negotiated. Secondly, as I said on 13th April, a decision has to be taken as to whether or not we are to use this missile for a programme of space research.
In this part of the Opposition's Motion, it seems to me that the difference between us is this: are a Government to continue a project to a point where, at some stage, it might be held that money has been wasted on it? Well, if a Minister of Defence is to be bound by that dictum he cannot possibly do his job. If it is to be said that we are never to go ahead with a project on which we may fear to waste some money, defence cannot be provided to this country in an age when technological development leaps forward every month and every year. If the Government are to fear to meet this situation, if they are to fear to make their correct dispositions on defence matters because, at some time or other, they may be accused in the House of spending money on projects that have to be cut short, then, I say again, it is the most dangerous

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thing that we could possibly do for the defence of this country.
There is, of course, a current "crack" in America about weapons—"If it works it's obsolete." I do not go as far as that—[Interruption.] Let us go back to two examples that are within the knowledge of the House. The first is the battleship "Vanguard". That vessel cost £20 million, never fired a shot in anger and now has to be scrapped—but it played its part. Another example is the Swift aircraft, in which the Opposition have an interest—indeed, I think that they started the project. The Swift project cost £40 million, never fulfilled its operational requirements, and had to be scrapped. I do not say that those decisions were wrong. I say that it is part of the price of living in a world of rapid technical development, and it is a price that no Government should fear to pay.
With that as the background, let me turn to 1955, which was the year when the contracts for Blue Streak were first placed. The position at that time was that both the Labour and Conservative Governments had played their part in providing our country with an independent contribution to the Western deterrent—and rightly. The problem then was, as it is today: what is the best means of delivery of the nuclear warhead?
Although I think that the right hon. Gentleman has changed his ground, I must just make it plain that the grounds on which this missile was started were not capable of being challenged if we were to make a contribution or be prepared to make a contribution to the Western deterrent. In this sense, we had no choice at that time but to go forward with a missile with liquid fuel. Both Russia and America were then concentrating on the development of the long-range missile with liquid fuel motors, and, as is known to those hon. Members who have studied the subject, the large solid-fuel motor had yet to be developed.
Therefore, the British Government rightly decided at that time to go ahead with a missile, derived basically from the American Atlas project. It was no use the right hon. Gentleman saying that the Atlas is now quite an outmoded
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weapon. It is a very practical part of the Western deterrent in certain circumstances. I may be wrong, but I thought that the right hon. Gentleman quoted a distinguished general as saying that he could give the date when the Atlas would be of no further value to the West, but if I have him wrong I do not press the point—
Mr. G. Brown: Only in the sense that he could give the date when the fixed-site liquid-fuel rocket would be of no further value, yes.
Mr. Watkinson: That depends, as I shall show, on where the fixed sites are, and how they can be dispersed—and that is a very important part of the argument. However, I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman will disagree that at the time the project was started it was a right decision, it was generally supported, and was, indeed, the only decision to make, because the mobile missile which has progressed on a solid-fuel motor was not then in existence.
I think that the right hon. Gentleman is wrong in saying that we gave no warnning of what we were doing until 1958 because, in fact, in the 1955 and 1956 White Papers, we told the House what we were doing. I have the actual quotations here, but I shall quote only from the 1955 White Paper, which stated:
"The manned bomber may eventually be supplemented by the ballistic rocket and we are, therefore, working on the development of such a rocket as an addition to our deterrent strength. …"
There was no lack of candour there. A decision was taken. It was properly announced to the House in the 1955 White Paper, and again announced to the House in the 1956 White Paper. There was, therefore, no question there of the Government doing other than properly telling the House exactly what they were doing on this matter, and, as I have said, except for those with sincere scruples against any weapon at all, no voices were raised against that decision.
During 1956, 1957 and 1958 the programme of development of this missile continued. Again, the position was clearly set out in each year's White Paper. What was the Opposition's position over that period? I do not challenge for a moment that they did not ask for more information and, indeed, wanted to explore the

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position during each defence debate. That was their duty. But one thing is certain —the Opposition were not, as the right hon. Gentleman has claimed:
"…pressing the end of Blue Streak steadily for three years."
If we look up HANSARD we can read what was said; and I do not quarrel with it at all. For example, in the 1957 debate, the right hon. Member for Belper said:
"Could we now decide to go into the missile field and to stop any further attempt to produce fighter aircraft in this country?"— [OFFICIAL REPORT. 13th February, 1957; Vol. 564, c. 1295]
Mr. G. Brown: Not Blue Streak.
Mr. Watkinson: The right hon. Gentleman's words were "into the missile field," I agree, but at that time, in 1957, there was no other type of missile.
My point is that the right hon. Gentleman's charge that we have been less than frank with the House over the development of this missile is quite untrue, and is shown to be so in HANSARD. Secondly, while the Opposition quite properly exercised their function of inquiry, demand for information, they were not, during this period, demanding, as they now try to maintain—perhaps with the benefit of hindsight—the end of this project. However, let us suppose that the Opposition's position over the years had been as the right hon. Member claimed. Even then it does not support the case deployed in the Motion of censure. The Opposition claim that the Blue Streak missile has long been known to be of no military value. That is the crux of their Motion. It says that it is a project
"long believed and now officially declared to be of no military value."
That is the reason why they are asking for an inquiry.
Let me now deal with the matter from my personal experience. This is where I venture to say that some of the right hon. Gentleman's shafts should have been directed at me. I bear as heavy a responsibility as my right hon. Friend. I want to tell the House, as frankly as I can, the logic of the events which, if I was to do my job as honestly and sincerely as I could, made this decision quite inevitable. As soon as I took over the Ministry of Defence, I had a series of meetings with my scientific, military
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and civil advisers to examine all outstanding defence problems, Blue Streak amongst them.
If, as the Motion says, Blue Streak was
"a project long believed and now officially declared to be of no military value"
I would obviously have received, last November, clear advice to stop this project. I received no such advice; on the contrary, my advice, in most cases, strongly supported the continuance of this missile. In that, Sir Frederick Brundrett was certainly not alone. The House must face this issue. Allegations that this project was carried on to a point where money was wasted on it must imply that it was carried on in the face of scientific, technical and military advice that it should be stopped. Such advice was not tendered to me in November last year, as it was not tendered to my right hon. Friend before this time. Nor did I then see, in my own judgment, any conclusive proof that Blue Streak should be cancelled.
Mr. A. J. Irvine: Will the Minister tell the House what advice he was receiving at that stage about the vulnerability of fixed-site bases for missiles?
Mr. Watkinson: I am coming to that point, if the hon. and learned Member will kindly wait. The position I want to establish now is that which I have made quite plain to the House, namely, that I received no advice to cancel this missile in November last year.
Of course, the decision was a narrowly balanced one. All big decisions are. Among the surrounding experts, the advisers, the newspaper correspondents, and so on, there were conflicting views. That was only natural. None the less, the crux of the matter is that if the position had been as the right hon. Gentleman has endeavoured, quite wrongly, to maintain it was, I should have had no option, on the advice given me, but immediately to go ahead and stop this project.
I have no intention of making my right hon. Friend's case; he is only too capable of making it himself, but I would point out that he warned the House about this in the defence debate in February, 1959, when he said that
"With the rapid advances of science, which are constantly upsetting earlier assessments,

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strategic plans and weapon programmes can never be regarded as permanent or immutable."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th February, 1959; Vol. 600, c. 1139.]
That was the beginning of a re-examination of the strategic position, which my right hon. Friend put in hand, and the beginning of a re-examination of the vulnerability of weapons with fixed sites —to deal with the intervention of the hon. and learned Member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. A. J. Irvine).
Mr. Beswick, whom many hon. Members remember, and who made many notable contributions to our civil aviation debates, said, on 17th April this year:
"We can criticise Mr. Watkinson or Mr. Sandys for all we are worth, but it might equally well have been Mr. George Brown."
That is the position, on the advice tendered in November, 1959.
Mr. G. Brown: The right hon. Gentleman is entitled to it.
Mr. Watkinson: The right hon. Gentleman says that I am entitled to it. That completely destroys his argument that Ministers have been neglecting the advice given them and have been taking decisions—to quote the words of his Motion—
"on a project long believed and now officially declared to be of no military value."
Mr. Brown: The right hon. Gentleman can have the debating point if he thinks that it will take up some of the time.
Mr. Watkinson: Both decisions—my right hon. Friends, in 1959, and mine, in 1960—were very difficult to take. I was especially disturbed at the effect that this would have on our Australian partners who, in the Woomera range and elsewhere, have played such a notable part—in fact, quite an essential part —in the development not only of this missile, but missiles of all types. As I said on 13th April, the Woomera range has a great programme of work still in front of it even if we do not go on with the space development of the Blue Streak. In 1959, the balance of advice was still in favour of continuance.
Now let me explain the changes that made a contrary decision inevitable—but only after much thought and weighing of evidence. In the light of changing circumstances my right hon. Friend last year put in hand a study of the vulner-
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ability of fixed site missiles. Whilst this study was proceeding I had the opportunity of talks with my N.A.T.O. colleagues. From these, the following facts emerged, at the turn of the year and early this year: first, in America new families of solid fuel and highly mobile missiles were being proved as viable weapons, They gave the possibility of far greater indestructibility for the means of delivery of the nuclear warhead than anything previously thought of.
Secondly, a most significant increase in the accuracy of long-range rockets, such as the American Atlas, pointed to the vital need for mobility and dispersal, most of all in a country like ours, which is small and close to the missile front line. It was thus essential to give greater indestructibility to our means of delivery of nuclear weapons as a balancing factor to the Russians' growing power and accuracy with long-range missiles.
This was the background to the statement in this year's White Paper, when I said:
"The possibilities of mobile launchers, whether aircraft or submarines, for long-range delivery of nuclear warheads are being investigated."
This is something which the right hon. Gentleman completely left out of his history of events. In late February, or possibly early March of this year, the United States Government made the first firm decision to put a very large sum of money behind the air-launched missile which is called Skybolt.
The right hon. Gentleman is quite right—and this shows how easy it is to twist the facts if one presents only a part of the story—in saying that we have been watching this weapon for a long time. Of course we have. It looked to us to be the ideal complement to the V-bomber force. But it was only in February of this year that it really became a viable project, because a very large sum of money was officially put behind its development.
Further talks with my N.A.T.O. colleagues followed, and I have had the opportunity of meeting Mr. Gates a number of times, and my advisers and his have been able to interchange information. It led me to this belief: if the West deterrent was to be maintained— if the balance was to be kept on which peace rests until we could attain disarmament—we had to achieve two most

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important strategic demands. First, we had to get the widest dispersal of fixed sites. That is why Atlas, in America, remains a viable weapon which can be widely dispersed whereas Blue Streak, over here, in a small country very near the missile front line, is quite a different proposition.
Secondly, we have to achieve the greater use of mobile carriers by land, sea and air. The Government and I would have liked to play a part in all these rôles. If our resources had been limitless we should have continued to develop Blue Streak for a time, but we would have had to combine it with co-operation with the United States on mobile air and sea-launched missiles. I explained at some length in the defence debate why, if we were to maintain and improve the rest of our other contributions to the deterrent of the West, we should always have to make a choice in the amount of money we could spend on any particular part of our deterrent effort.
That choice fell to be made in March and April this year, and the logic of it obviously showed that if we had a choice, despite the difficulty of stopping a project on which we have spent a large sum of money, the best balance for keeping the deterrent and maintaining the peace was to go for mobility. Therefore, that led quite clearly and inevitably, to the position which I explained to the House on 13th April. The right hon. Gentleman's story of the course of events differs widely from mine. It is the House which must judge who is right. I am not charging the right hon. Gentleman with attempting to mislead the House, as he has charged my colleagues and me. I am saying that I have frankly told the House of the course of events, and that it is the House which must judge who is right. No inquiry is needed when the facts are fully exposed.
Now let me make our position quite plain with regard to missile manufacture. In the research and development of Blue Streak and Black Knight we have acquired the technical knowledge to manufacture either solid fuel or liquid fuel missiles if we wish to do so. If, therefore, we decide to seek to acquire a means of delivery for our own nuclear warheads, from the United States of America for the later 'sixties and early 'seventies, this is because avoidance of parallel expenditure on development
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seems to us to make sense. Otherwise, what is the use of my going to N.A.T.O., and my right hon. Friend going to see his French and German colleagues, and saying, "The sensible thing to do in Europe and the West is to try to have a mutual shopping list. Let us try to buy from each other things which most increase our strength, and stop the parallel development which must mean a waste of money"?
If we believe in that policy, we must carry it out ourselves. It is, therefore, a deliberate decision and a policy designed to strengthen the Western alliance. It is certainly not an attempt to out our commitments or to get out of making the contribution which we are determined to continue to the independent Western deterrent.
A lot has been said by the right hon. Gentleman and others about the alternative means of delivery following the cancellation of Blue Streak. Again, it does not tally in the slightest degree with what the right hon. Gentleman has said. The V-bombers, with the Blue Steel flying bomb—that is to say, the bomb now being fitted—will meet our full contribution to the West's nuclear deterrent until the mid-'sixties. In other words, we do not need to add to our major commitment here, over this period, even if the means were available.
After the mid-'sixties, which is when Blue Streak was planned to become available, we are now able to choose what type of missile we shall adopt, on the principle that we shall provide our own warhead and our own mobile launching platform by sea or air. I say again that if, through some circumstance beyond our control, this policy became impossible we retain the technical "know-how" and ability to make a missile of this kind for ourselves. I do not think that it is sense to do it at this point if we can get it from the Americans without strings and on proper terms.
Mr. Shinwell: If, as I understand, the right hon Gentleman is referring to another missile, namely, Skybolt, will he look at the speech made by his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air in the recent Air Estimates debate, when he referred to the possibility of acquiring the Skybolt from the United States

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of America but pointed out, quite properly, that it might be exceedingly difficult, technically, to adapt our existing bombers to the use of the Skybolt? There is no guarantee that we could produce effective bombers in time.
Mr. Watkinson: The right hon. Gentleman is correct to put that point. I will answer it in the course of my argument, because I accept that it is an important and valid point and there has been a lot of misunderstanding about it.
First, after the Blue Steel bomb, which is now our current nuclear carrier, faded out in the mid-'sixties, we were, as the right hon. Gentleman said, going to go ahead with a second mark of that weapon. The fact is that the second mark has now become too vulnerable, as I said in the defence debate, to surface-to-air guided missiles. Skybolt is the perfect and almost invulnerable replacement for it. I will go into the question whether it is compatible or not in a moment.
There are views about both air launched missiles and sea launched missiles, Polaris and Skybolt. I do not take the view that one yields to the other. Both are necessary for the armoury of the West, but for Great Britain the V-bomber as a mobile launching platform has the following advantages. First, we have an investment here which is valid until beyond the 'seventies and on which we shall have spent about £500 million on capital cost alone. Why not make the most of it? Secondly, the flexibility of the V-bombers, which will be still further improved by measures now in hand to permit a higher state of readiness and better dispersal—and my right hon. Friend gave some indication of this in the Air Estimates debate—clearly gives them great advantages over fixed missile sites which are tied to particular areas in this country.
The V-bombers also have the advantages that they can be launched without necessarily committing us to a nuclear war, and, though primarily designed to carry nuclear weapons, they are also available for use in a conventional rôle if needed, which fits in well with our world responsibilities. In other words, it would be madness not to exploit this great British asset to the full, and Sky-
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bolt, if it becomes a functioning weapon, will allow us to do so.
Let me tell the House what steps we have taken both with Skybolt and Polaris—and this is partly what the right hon. Gentleman asked about—to make sure that both are usable weapons as far as we are concerned, and the terms on which we are prepared to have them. First, Skybolt. We have had people integrated in the Skybolt team for a considerable period. Therefore, we have kept a close watch on its progress. The initial specification drawn up by the United States authorities included the requirement that Skybolt should be capable of being carried in the Mark II V-bombers as well as in the B.52. In other words, the V-bombers have been in this programme from the beginning.
Two British teams are at present in the United States studying the detailed problems involved in the installation of the missile in our aircraft. The United States Government have just sent a team over here to explain to us at first hand the operational and technical aspects of the Skybolt programme as it stands now. It was their reassuring report, coupled with the fact that the United States Government had put a very large sum of money into this weapon's development, which certainly assisted me in coming to the decision which I did.
Lastly, the United States Government have taken a firm decision to press on with the development of Skybolt with the highest priority. A programme for the progressive fitment of this missile to the Mark II V-bombers is being worked out. Wind tunnel trials are going on, and it will shortly be necessary to have closer contact and, in due course, to send production Mark II V-bombers for flying trials in the United States. This does not mean that we shall not go on with our consideration of the submarine launched Polaris missile. I have asked the Admiralty to put in hand an urgent study of the requirements for British-built submarines capable of carrying the Polaris type missile.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: At what cost?
Mr. Watkinson: These are projects that we examined carefully, and, to deal with the right hon. Gentleman's point, I thought that, on the whole, it was better to go to the United States having

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made our position publicly quite plain so that when I looked at missiles of this type it would be clear why I had come and what my position was.
In dealing with the Opposition's Motion, I have tried to do two things. First, to give the House the facts as fully as I could. Secondly, to deal in all cases with the worst case that the Opposition could make against the Government, namely, the case where no further work is done on Blue Streak at all. If, as may well be decided, it is used as the basic vehicle for a programme of space research, very little of the money expended will be wasted, but that decision has yet to be taken. It could not properly be taken until the widest examination and consultation had taken place, and that could not properly be done until the Government had decided the immediate future of the weapon.
To sum up, what I have shown is this. The Opposition's Motion rests on the statement that Blue Streak was
"… a project long believed … to be of no military value."
If that was so, I should have been faced with advice and decisions which I should certainly have accepted. I cannot speak for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation. He will speak for himself, but in November this was not a decision which, in my judgment, with all the thought and application that I could give it, bore on the side of stopping the project. It was only the further development of events this year, which I have outlined to the House, which swung it on to the narrow balance, quite inevitably narrow, of stopping the project.
As to the timing of the decision, it was the logic of the event itself which dictated the time. The reasons would not have permitted an earlier announcement, although at one moment I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was complaining that we should have done this a long time ago, and then he was taxing me with the claim that I should not have done it until I had been to the United States of America.
Mr. G. Brown: No.
Mr. Gordon Walker: The right hon. Gentleman said that himself.
Mr. Watkinson: I said it, and when the right hon. Gentleman reads HANSARD he will see that he also said it.
Mr. Brown: I only quoted what the right hon. Gentleman said.
Mr. Watkinson: As to the total of money, it is worth mentioning again, if we are to have any sense of proportion on this at all, that over the period that we spent £65 million on Blue Streak— and that is what we spent on the project as a whole—we also spent £650 million on petrol, rations, coal and coke for the Armed Forces. It may be asked what we have to show for that. The answer is only that the Services have played their part in preserving peace, which is something that the majority of hon. Members in the House still support.
Mr. John Strachey Mr. John Strachey (Dundee, West) rose—
Mr. Watkinson: Defence money is not wasted because the circumstances against which it was an insurance have changed. Blue Streak was the correct insurance against our needing, as we might well have needed until recent months, a liquid fuel static missile as a vital part of the Western deterrent. We gained an enormous amount of expert knowledge when we were developing it in all ways and we shall gain immensely from it if we decide to go into the space field. What we have learned up to now gives us a missile manufacturing capacity for dealing with missiles in the future, whether acquired or built. Therefore, the demands of the Opposition for an inquiry are, frankly, not supported by the facts.
As I have said, the decision is for the House to take. I have set out as clearly and as honestly as I can the sequence of events and the facts which led first my right hon. Friend and then myself to these inevitable decisions. It is the House which must decide and I ask the House to reject the Motion.
5.10 p.m.
Mr. R. T. Paget: We have heard a number of expressions of sympathy, and I should like to express my sympathy to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill). It must indeed be sad for him once again to hear from the Ministerial Bench and from the Treasury Dispatch Box another of the sort of speeches to which he had to listen so often in the 1930s, when it was he who,

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with his splendid voice, was asking for a public inquiry into the chaos and muddle of our defence programme.
Surely we cannot have heard a worse speech on defence from the Government Dispatch Box than that to which we have just listened; or one which fills us with a greater certainty that the needs for the defence of this country are wholly misunderstood. I wish to ask one simple question of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence. He talked about a contribution to the independent Western deterrent. What on earth does that mean? There is a Western deterrent, but there is nothing independent about that. The whole argument for independence is that we should have a deterrent independent of the Americans.
Mr. Watkinson: The hon. and learned Gentleman has quoted me correctly; perhaps he will be good enough to give me an opportunity of putting the matter right. What I intended to say was the independent British contribution to the Western deterrent.
Mr. Paget: But what is the point of independence? The whole of independence here is independence from the Americans. If we are concerned simply with a Western deterrent, a Western counter-force, a Western whatever we like, the overwhelming argument is that in the allocation of duties, in the allocation of burdens, the atomic contribution shall be that of the Americans. The whole argument is overwhelmingly there, unless it be deemed important that we should have a deterrent which is independent to ourselves.
I happen to be one of those who believes that is important. I believe that we ought to have an independent English or British deterrent, and I will say why. But, first, I should like to try to distinguish what we are talking about in the atomic sphere. There are three reasons why one has atomic weapons. The first is to have bigger artillery, that is the tactical use. The second is to disarm the enemy, that is to have the means of destroying his capacity to hurt you before he can use it. That is termed counterforce. Thirdly, there is the capacity to punish him if he hurts you. That is the deterrent, it is the means of vengeance and punishment. Those are three quite separate things.
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No one has suggested that there is any occasion for us to have an independent tactical arm. We have been quite prepared to rely on the Americans in the tactical field through N.A.T.O., and I believe that we have been right to do so. There has been no suggestion that we required anything independent in that regard. It is quite absurd to say that, independently, we could exercise a counterforce. No one at any time has ever suggested that we could conceivably be in a position to knock out the Russians before they could hurt us; of course not. Our independent position is concerned only with the deterrent. We wish to be in a position independently to say to the Russians, "There are certain injuries which, if you do them to us, we are in a position to avenge, and we shall avenge."
What are the characteristics of the deterrent? The first is that it is a second punch potential. When we consider the ghastly consequences to this country which would follow from an atomic war, we cannot conceive that we should begin it. What we need for our independence is a second punch potential, and the essence of that is that it must be something which cannot be knocked out by the enemy. I have maintained this for years.
Indeed, in a speech which I made during the debate on the Gracious Speech, in 1955, I made the point that a deterrent based in these islands was quite futile for our purpose because the Russians' counter-force capacity, if they decided to launch it both against us and the Americans, must be large enough to be successful against this country. I could see no prospect—I have never been able to see any prospect—of being able to use for a deterrent anything which is based in these islands.
As a contribution to American counter-force, rockets like Thor might be of some service. But Thor is not a deterrent, it is the opposite, it is an incitement, because it is something which the Russians have it within their power to knock out at any time they choose.
The second point I wish to make about a deterrent is that enough is enough, and here I am talking of the independent deterrent. We require enough to assure the Russians that the injury they would

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suffer from attacking us would be greater than any benefit which they might gain. In considering that, we should spend a little time in considering why we want an independent deterrent and the sort of circumstances in which we want it. Perhaps Suez provided an example. At Suez, we acted independently of the Americans and the Russians threatened us with atomic retribution.
A braver Government than that of Sir Anthony Eden, or one with a better cause, might have replied to the Russians, "We know that you can destroy us. You also know that we can cause enormous injury to you. Suez has always traditionally been regarded as among our vital interests. We do not consider that Suez is worth to you the injury which it would bring on your people." That would have been an effective reply.
I hope that we shall never again commit the folly of putting ourselves in the Suez position. None the less, I cannot conceive that I should wish to live in a world in which we can never assert our rights anywhere without first obtaining American support. If we ever have occasion to assert our rights anywhere in the world, I do not want to be entirely naked in front of a Russian threat or Russian blackmail.
Another reason which, I feel, is of some importance, and, perhaps, a more serious reason, is this. I am not too confident or too certain that the Americans will necessarily remain atomically committed in Europe, because we must remember that as the intercontinental ballistic missile is developed so America becomes more vulnerable and Europe less worth while to the Americans. Suppose, perhaps because of a Communist rising in France—all these things are possible; we cannot eliminate them altogether—we found that the Americans had either withdrawn from Europe, or that they had been prepared to accept defeat in conventional war on the continent of Europe rather than go to the ghastly alternative of atomic destruction which the Russians can now take to them. Supposing that that happens, and that the Russians come to the Channel, the possession of an independent deterrent re-creates the Channel as a strategic barrier.
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At that point the Russians have to consider whether destroying us or invading us is worth the injury which we can do to them if we have that potential weapon. And let there be no doubt about this, that the injury which we can do to them is enormous. We do not require to identify particular objects and we do not require any deep penetration. There are a lot of Russian cities which are very close to her frontiers. We do not require clean bombs. The prevailing winds are westwards across the Russian continent. Bombs dropped quite close to the frontier, particularly if treated with cobalt, could do unbelievable injury to the Russian people. If the Russians know that we have that capacity to avenge ourselves then the injury which we might avenge ceases to be worth while to the Russians.
What part in all this does Blue Streak play? Blue Streak never had anything to do with our independent deterrent capacity. If it was ever of any value it would only have been as a very humble and quickly obsolete contribution to American counterforce. It was never anything more. I doubt, too, whether the V-bombers are very much more use. Indeed, it seems to me—I have been saying this for the last six or seven years —that we have indulged in a fantastic struggle for the stratosphere, which is quite beyond our means, and have failed to notice that the lower air is undefended. It is like taking tremendous trouble to break into a bank only to find that the door is not locked.
Take even a last-war Mosquito, nothing even as modern as a jet, a piston-engined Mosquito flying at 100 feet. There is nothing in the Russian power to stop such an aircraft going from here to Moscow at any time. As far as the Mosquito is concerned, it can fly under 100 feet and it is just about the fastest aeroplane which can be flown at under 100 feet and be kept down.
What is to stop the Mosquito? The Russian MiG cannot perform at 100 ft. If it tried to come down and to bring its guns to bear at that height it would fly straight into the ground. The Russian fighters are quite incapable of dealing with a low flying aeroplane.
Mr. Wigg: What my hon. and learned Friend is saying is quite interesting, but it does not agree with the facts because

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one of the characteristics of both the East German force and the Russian force is the concentration which they still maintain on anti-aircraft defence.
Mr. Paget: My hon. Friend's pronouncements are not always as good as he thinks they are.
Mr. Wigg: On the other hand, they are not as bad as those of my hon. and learned Friend.
Mr. Paget: Within the last two years the Russians have removed practically the whole of their anti-aircraft defence. They have demolished almost the whole of their anti-aircraft command over the last two or three years.
Mr. Wigg: It is within the experience of my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) and myself, who had an opportunity to see the East German forces, that one of their characteristics was the concentration of anti-aircraft defence for just that very purpose. If my hon. and learned Friend is thinking of attacking Berlin he had better be careful.
Mr. Paget: I am not talking about Berlin. It is perfectly true that the Russian field army is still highly equipped with "ack-ack" as part of the divisional organisation for the protection of its military command posts and positions. The Russians have disbanded their "ack-ack" command in the big areas and they have done so within the last two years or so. I will produce the documents which show that if my hon. Friend wishes me to.
In point of fact, when we look at a Mosquito and then look at the Russian frontiers we see what an enormous number of guns would be necessary, remembering that the only gun which is effective is one which is so close that the Mosquito practically flies over the muzzle. The plane would be below the radar screen. A whole new observer corps would have to be created. With the dismantling of the old-fashioned air defences, the lower air is almost free to anyone to fly in at and to remain at that low height.
I would also venture to say that if, as a preliminary to the Summit Conference, we were to send a Mosquito to call on Moscow's May Day parade and
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perhaps drop a bouquet for Mr. Khrushchev and a few good will messages from the R.A.F. it might have as salutary an effect in Russia as the Sputnik had in America. It would show the Russians just how vulnerable they are.
As far as the gap is concerned, instead of breaking ourselves in a stratospheric effort, in which we can never be independent, we had far better concentrate on that which we can do; that is, low-flying aircraft which cannot be too fast, because they cannot keep low enough if they are. Ultimately, the Polaris may be our answer, but I do not feel that, in regard to the capacity to deliver a deterrent, we really need concern ourselves too much with these things.
The whole trouble, and this has been year in and year out, has been the abject failure of Defence Minister after Defence Minister to think out what our defence policy is. Unfortunately, and I know that we are as much to blame for this, although it was longer ago, the Defence Ministry has merely become a forum where the Chiefs of Staff fight for the interests of their particular Services. We have had no real constructive thought as to what is required. If there had been, we should have distinguished between the deterrent, which we must keep independent, and the counter-force and the tactical force, which we can safely leave to the Americans within the alliance, and the realisation that we do not have to go in for these fantastic delivery methods. We possess hydrogen bombs and atomic bombs and without any deep penetration we can do injury to the Russians enormously greater than the destruction of these islands could ever be worth to them.
But we have had muddled thinking after muddled thinking. The most fantastic of all was the present Minister of Aviation, who seemed to think that a deterrent capacity—that is, a capacity to commit suicide—was a substitute for conventional forces, and that that will enable us to have our defence on the cheap. Of course, a small Army may be economical in manpower, but it is far more expensive. We have all this expense to get our Army in Germany properly equipped, and it is not, to get our mobile reserve mobile and airborne, and it is not, and, instead of wasting

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our money on ill-considered projects like Skybolt, instead of this stratospheric race, let us get down to earth, provide ourselves with an efficient Army, get a mobile reserve, and have the means, by Jaw-flying aircraft, to deliver our deterrent.
5.33 p.m.
Mr. Antony Head: I am always pleased to follow the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget). In fact, I think it is fair to say that in the past he was more likely to follow me than I was to follow him. He has always been a deep thinker on defence, and I do not think that, if I say that I do not entirely agree with what he has said, he will consider that it is any reflection on the depth of his thinking. What the hon. and learned Gentleman has done, and what has been done by both Front Bench speakers today, has been to emphasise the importance of this decision—to abandon Blue Streak—in our defence policy, both now and in the future.
Both Front Bench speakers stressed the importance of the decision, and both touched upon its effect, both today and in the future, and, to some extent only, that has put out some of the purely financial considerations which have been brought in. I would say that, in the field of financial loss, if we are a member of what I might call the big field intercontinental ballistic researchers, the stakes at that table are very high. If we analyse the loss on Blue Streak of about £100 million, it averages out at £20 million a year over a five-year period, and I am informed on good authority that last year the United States spent on rocketry, and so forth, £4,350 million. I will say that again—£4,350 million.
If we are in this field on as restricted a scale as we are, we have to have great good fortune with the very few horses which we can back to pick a winner every time. I personally consider that the Government's decision was right and a courageous one, because to abandon a project which was one of the essential parts of one's policy is always difficult, either in politics or defence, with Blue Streak or Clause 4. It is always difficult to get rid of something that has been rendered obsolete or out of date.
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That has been done, and I believe that we find ourselves today, in consequence, in a position in which it is extremely difficult for anybody except the most reckless to say that it is other than extremely hard to decide on our future defence policy and on our position today. I believe that if we are to get it right for the future we have to ask ourselves some very blunt questions, which are now hedged about by a certain lack of realism and wishful thinking which is sometimes misleading in our estimate of ourselves as a nuclear Power.
I do not know whether many people will agree with me, and I dare say that to some these questions will seem unnecessary, or even wrong. The Minister of Defence has adumbrated to us the future line of policy, if I understood him aright, by saying that it was our intention to buy for ourselves the vehicle or the motive power of the Skybolt and of the Polaris rocket, and that this would be charged with a British manufactured warhead, thereby giving ourselves an independent deterrent of which we have the key to the cupboard.
The first question I would ask about that decision is this: when we have got it and have paid for it in the quantity that we can afford, will it be effective? By the time we have got it and installed it, will it be up-to-date? Let us consider, first, the Skybolt. The Skybolt is a very sophisticated weapon which still needs a lot of development. Let us assume that that development succeeds, and that it is installed at some future date. I am not as well-informed as members of the Government, but I should imagine that that would be at least five years ahead, though I should be glad to be corrected by anybody who knows better. When we have got to that period, how much life will there be in the Skybolt?
One hopes that the development of the weapon and improvements, and so forth, will continue for some time. Surely, if it continues for some time, that presupposes the demand for a further and probably supersonic bomber to carry the advanced Skybolt. Therefore, I ask at this stage whether we are sure, in going for the Skybolt, what we are really letting ourselves in for in the way of future expenditure, because one of the problems in defence is that one sets out on a policy for five

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years ahead which carries great attractions, but these estimates often tend to be much more optimistic than those for the following year, because the expenditure, being a long way off and being based on uncertainties about the price of development, the tendency is for atomic weapons, and so forth, to cost in reality much more than was anticipated five years before.
Apart from that, in regard to the Skybolt, we have had many discussions in this House about the disadvantages of static platforms unless they are widely dispersed. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton mentioned that. But an airfield is a static platform and the Minister of Defence said—it is only fair to him to mention it—that it was intended that we should have special arrangements for the dispersal of our V-bombers. That sounds fine, but this form of dispersal is not in this island or even in Europe. It is on a world scale. It is not just enough to have a bare airfield. It must have radar, constant manning, mechanics for maintenance, and possibly some of the weapons.
I am not criticising. I am trying to look ahead and consider where we find ourselves. If we have Skybolt and we consider it a good deterrent, and we disperse the V-bomber force in this very expensive way, we may find, in 1965, that, together with Polaris, it is more than we can afford. Polaris, to me, is superficially a much more attractive weapon in so far as it has an underwater mobile platform and it is a proved weapon which is now firing. But, unfortunately, the vehicle which carries Polaris is one of the most expensive and complex modern bits of machinery that even today have been invented. If we are to have an effective and realistic nuclear armoury which has any reality, will we ever get enough submarines of that class to take the Polaris? The Chancellor of the Exchequer is not here and I do not know what estimate is given full blessing by the Chancellor of what we would have by way of atomic submarines in 1965.
Mr. Paget: Even one atomic submarine equipped with 16 Polaris has greater explosive power than all the explosives let off by mankind in all the
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wars ever fought. Surely one is quite something.
Mr. Head: I am not detracting from the value of one Polaris-carrying submarine. All I am saying is that we must realise that if there is to be dispersal of these weapons we must have a number of these submarines to make an effective deterrent and the cost of the vehicle for Polaris is astronomic. Polaris is now a deterrent. It is a weapon that works. If we invest in this undersea moving platform, I wonder how Polaris will look in five or ten years' time, when one considers the speed and sophistication of modern weapons and methods of delivery and what today's armory of weapons would have looked like in 1955 when Blue Streak was ordered.
These things are going on so fast today that an obvious problem is that if one buys other people's finished products and makes one's own material to go with them, by the time one is ready and equipped one might find oneself in an obsolete class at very great cost without achieving the object, an effective deterrent.
Mr. K. Zilliacus: Is it not a fact that up to now the United States Administration have made it clear that they are not prepared for this or any other country to have Polaris without dual control and, also, that the American Air Force has priority for Skybolt and our turn is not likely to come before 1970?
Mr. Head: I was coming to that point. I am not saying that because I was not coming to it. It comes a little later in my remarks if the hon. and learned Member does not mind. I was talking about the difficulties of foreseeing expenditure and about the expense of getting something which is a realistic contribution and about the dangers of obsolescence.
This problem of future policy does not end there. I think that the House as a whole and indeed the Government, who are much better informed than we are, have to ask some very hard and realistic questions about why we want this deterrent.
What is the real reason behind what is a vast national effort? Why do we want it? Do we want it badly to add

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to our contribution to the Western deterrent? If we consider this as an addition and a contribution in five years' time, there is today in the United States—and I have seen various figures —at least more than four times enough fissile material to blow up the whole world. There will be in five years' time in the United States a much larger number and a much more accurate armory of missiles for delivery. If the agonising horror of atomic war started in 1965, I suggest that there is no question of the United States or Soviet Russia just flinging the lot by any means at their disposal at each other. That would cause sufficient atomic dust to kill everybody.
Such a war, if it came, would put a premium on accuracy and the pinpointing of the atomic offensive power of other States and the attempt to knock it out with the minimum dose possible. In other words, "If you throw the lot you may kill yourself". Therefore, in the future the deterrent will be a deterrent of accuracy, based on intelligence, which may be confused by the mobility of weapons.
What we shall be able to afford in Skybolt and in Polaris in 1965 will not, I think, be a really significant contribution to what will by then be a superfluity. Secondly, it may not qualify by the fact that only the best and most accurate weapons will then be used, because to fling the lot will mean world destruction. Therefore, I am very far from being convinced that our atomic armory in this country is of real significance as a Western addition to the deterrent as a whole.
Are we having this independent deterrent because we fear, as I think the Leader of the Opposition was saying the other day, that America, owing to the vulnerability of her cities and people, might abandon us and Europe, go isolationist and leave us in a position in which, if we were threatened or there were an act of aggression, we should be at the mercy of Soviet Russia? We must have a very hard look at that. We have one outstanding disadvantage in modern war—compression—squashed into one tiny island.
I do not know what atomic weapons there will be in Europe in 1965 and I doubt whether anybody knows. I doubt whether there will be very many. One
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of the most dangerous things that one can do is to allow the possession of a few weapons to encourage one to pursue a line of policy which, in fact, is not supported by the actual strength of those weapons. I suggest that if the reason for our buying some of these weapons, within our limited capacity of wealth, is that we can stand on our own feet up to the brink of an atomic showdown with Russia, unless we are prepared and equipped to go right through with it that bluff will never work. As somebody in the debate has said, we might have the consolation that we gave our opponent some nasty blows before we were wiped out.
But the atomic threat is unique in war. We are asking the British Government, with their limited atomic armory, in case we were abandoned, to go right through and be prepared to initiate a policy leading to the destruction of all our population if it came to a showdown. In this new type of war, I do not believe that that will ever be done, nor do I believe that if the Americans go isolationist that will necessarily bring America in. Nor is there much consolation in a late American entry into such a war.
I feel strongly, as I have felt and said repeatedly all along, that the security of these islands and of Europe rests on the unity of the Western alliance. If that breaks, all goes. It is the defensive power and the atomic power of the United States which has guaranteed the integrity of these islands and of Europe. I believe that that will always be so. If we feel that we are to be discarded by the United States and we start initiating policies with that in mind, it may even make it more likely that that might happen.
I am not counselling against the possession of these weapons. I am stating that we must be quite sure why we want them and that we can continue to afford them. I do not believe that it is a valid point to state that if we possessed them and were to become engaged in a quarrel direct with Russia, America would abstain. I do not believe that to be a realistic situation.
Is it, perhaps, that we want these weapons because they would give strength to British policy and British counsel at the world table, at the

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Summit, and so on? I wonder whether they do. With great respect to my predecessors—I am subject to correction, because I have no recent details—I think it is fair to say that during the last four or five years our contribution to the deterrent of the West has been comparatively very small. The influence of the Prime Minister, however, has been considerable. Nobody would deny that. I am very doubtful whether that is not because of our long knowledge of international affairs, the personality and understanding of the Prime Minister himself and the closeness of our alliance with the United States. I believe that that is much more behind our influence than the possession of these weapons.
Let us think in terms of scale. The Americans spend £4,350 million. We spend, perhaps, 3 or 4 per cent. of that figure. We spend three counters to their hundred. After five years, we would have spent 15 counters to their 500. We have too small a stake at this vast poker table to think that we will influence policy as an atomic Power. We shall influence it primarily because of our wisdom, our knowledge of the game and the fact that we are closely allied with the United States.
I am aware that people think that I am arguing against having any of these weapons. I am not. I am trying to see why we want them. Is it purely because of national prestige? Is there at the back of this the thought that Britain has always had strong defence forces, including a great fleet, and has always been a strong Power in the world and that we are reluctant to relinquish that position? It is extremely dangerous to think and to behave like something you no longer are. This attitude has got many people into a lot of trouble.
We are spending only 3 per cent. of the expenditure of the United States on these atomic research developments and armoury. We shall never be one of the two great Powers. We have not realised —I do not believe that the British public has realised—our true position in world affairs today. It is unpleasant for the political world to have to explain it, and explain it in the blunt way of taking action that patently demonstrates it. It may, however, be better to recognise it now than to embark upon a course which we will not be able to
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afford for long because of the rapidity of development and which, if we did adopt it, might not bring the result for which we hoped.
If we can afford these weapons, I have no objection and I am all in favour of having them. My real fear is that when, in five years' time, the bill comes in, it will be more than we thought and there will be other weapons coming along. That expenditure will have to be met, and it will be met at the expense of other defence commitments. I refer, in particular, to conventional forces.
I put to the House a serious plea. I fear that Western defence policy today is veering more and more towards an undue reliance on atomic weapons. I believe that if we rely unduly on the atomic weapon and regard it not merely as a deterrent, but as a sanction that will prevent grabs and violations of international law, and will, we think, deter an enemy from eroding or grabbing parts that are all-important to us, we are deluding ourselves.
Faced with anything but a mortal threat, no country would initiate atomic warfare. Undue dependence on atomic weapons means that something which is not a mortal threat but a very serious threat will result in inaction unless we have adequate mobile and well-equipped conventional forces. They today are the cushion between the very brink of atomic war and giving time and thought for sanity to prevail. Without the intermediate level of conventional forces, the likelihood of war becomes much greater. Conventional forces are not popular among democracies.
Mr. F. J. Bellenger: What are conventional forces?
Mr. Head: The right hon. Gentleman is asking, I take it, whether they include tactical atomic weapons. Yes and no. [Laughter.] I do not want to take up too much time, but I will answer. I am not being laughed at for saying "Yes and no."
Today, conventional forces cannot be without tactical weapons. I say that categorically. It is my belief that with the threat that now evists, the likelihood of the initiation of the use of tactical atomic weapons within conventional forces is becoming less. For that reason, I am disturbed at the extent to which

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tactical atomic weapons are being integrated into conventional forces, particularly in the United States.
I am in favour of us, by our example, by our contribution to N.A.T.O., by a mobile force supported, if possible, by tactical atomic weapons, showing an example to the rest of the Western alliance that we must not neglect conventional forces. I am frightened that if we embark upon this expensive field, the expenditure may push out what is required to make our conventional forces effective and that through our example conventional forces throughout the whole Western alliance will become less and less. That will not only make disarmament harder, but will greatly increase the chances of peace, or the Western position, being eroded by a series of grabs. I therefore say to the Government that while I do not oppose the possibility of having these weapons if they are within our purse, let us think very carefully whether we can afford them both now and in the long term and let us be absolutely convinced on the reasons for which we are having them.
6.0 p.m.
Mr. E. Shinwell: The thoughtful character of the speech of the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) justifies the extension of the debate. Factors of momentous importance have emerged. Indeed, in my opinion, although it was not so originally intended, this is one of the most important defence debates we have had for many years.
As I have said, momentous factors have emerged. One—and I say it quite bluntly with honest conviction—is that from what I have heard this afternoon and from what we have been made well aware of in recent months, this country is not in possession of am effective nuclear deterrent, nor is it likely to be, if at all, for many years to come. Another, to judge from the speech of my Tight hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown)—a speech to which I listened with rapt attention and which was most able—is that we are on the threshold of a remarkable transformation in the defence policy of the Labour Party. There is no escape from it. I am not unduly concerned about the Aldermaston March or agitations or demonstrations of that
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character, although I recognise the sincerity upon which those demonstrations are based. I have had long experience of demonstrations and know their effect.
But it is important that the mood of the general public is—slowly it may be —definitely changing in the matter of the organisation of British defence. The right hon. Member for Carshalton some years ago sat on the Government Front Bench as Minister of Defence. What a transformation! When he spoke for the Government, he was responsible for the organisation of our defence system, and believed what he said at the time. Today, we have had his very thoughtful speech which completely and effectively disposed of the argument for the nuclear deterrent.
At the end of his speech, the right hon. Gentleman said—it will have been noted by hon. Gentlemen—that he took no exception to the existence of these weapons if we could afford them, but he had already argued against them very effectively in the course of his speech. He referred to the Skybolt and Polaris projects and many others which in his view would not come to fruition for many years, and, even if they did, could hardly be regarded as an effective contribution to what is called the Western deterrent.
The question which the right hon. Gentleman posed and which I hope will be noted was the very simply stated question—although it has many implications—what contribution can this country make to the deterrent against another war? That is the question. It is a very important question to which we must endeavour to furnish an answer. I have no doubt that in the minds of right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and certainly in the minds of hon. Members and right hon. Members in all parts of the House, the question is: what contribution can we make?
I do not agree that it is just a matter of finance, of expenditure, although that is obviously important. It is important for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, our economy, the taxpayer and so on. The question is rather whether, as a result of expenditure, we are producing something worth while, something which can afford us security and protection against another conflagration.

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Of course, the answer is that so far we have produced nothing worth while. That is not so much an indictment of the Government because of their defence expenditure, but rather an indictment of the nuclear deterrent policy. As I listened to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence doing his best to defend the Government against the demand for an inquiry—and one recognises that he is the successor of a very long line of predecessors and is therefore not entirely to blame for what has occurred—I could not help thinking that when he spoke about the absence of technological, military and other advice when he took office, the blame ought to be placed on the Government for not having used the scientific and technical knowledge available.
Where are our scientists and our technologists? How is it that the United States of America—admittedly with greater resources than our own—and the U.S.S.R.—also with greater resources— are able to undertake these projects while this country, where scientific discovery was cradled and which has made such an amazing contribution to science and technology, has not been able to produce the scientists able to provide the weapons which have been possible elsewhere?
Is it because of lack of resources? If that is the answer, the right hon. Member for Carshalton is right and we shall never be able to provide resources to give us an effective nuclear deterrent, because the vast expenditure required is beyond our reach. However, there may be other reasons. It is not so much an indictment of the Government as an indictment of the country's scientific and technological capability—although to that extent the Government could be indicted.
The right hon. Member for Carshalton has undergone a transformation, but so have I. Let me say at once that I am not ashamed of it. I freely confess that ever since the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Aviation, as Minister of Defence, produced the White Paper with the memorable paragraph 12, my mind has been gradually forced to the conclusion that—leaving expenditure aside, although it is important—the nuclear deterrent was no longer feasible or practicable and that, in spite of all our efforts and all the gifts, assistance and the
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"know-how" provided by the United States of America and other sources, we were not in a position to play our full part.
This is not an emotional change. As I said in the recent defence debate, I accept the need for defence, but I am not convinced that this is a form of defence which we shall ever be able to provide to the extent which was originally intended by the Government and, since it may be a debating point for hon. Members opposite, by the Labour Government of which I was a member.
I come to the second point that, judging by the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper—a speech which I have just praised, without condescension—we are on the threshold of a remarkable change in Labour's defence policy. It is not long since my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, winding up a defence debate, declared, as the right hon. Member for Carshalton has just reminded us, that the reason we had to provide an independent nuclear deterrent was that we could not trust the United States of America. What is our position now?
Do my colleagues really believe that an independent nuclear deterrent can be provided by this country in the next ten, fifteen or twenty years? If they do, what about the cost? If they do, do they believe that it is a practical proposition? If that is their view, I must disagree. I no longer see the advantage of it.
If it means that we must now rely exclusively on the United States of America, I deplore it. If we are to defend ourselves, I wish that we could defend ourselves without any aid. However, when I consider the facts of history, I cannot recall an occasion when we were involved in war when we were able to go it alone. We were always relying on assistance from some quarter. It is perfectly true that in two great wars we waited for the United States to come in, but, going back a long way in history, this country has always had the Germans, the French or the Russians at its side and, in the end, we were able to get through. That may have been largely due to our valiant efforts, but it was also due to ancillary aid.
Is it now possible for us to provide defence in the form that some people envisage without our relying on the United States?
Mr. A. J. Irvine: Does my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) regard it as unthinkable that at some future date, rather than face the threat of nuclear retaliation, the United States will come to regard Western Europe and the United Kingdom as expendable? If he does not regard that as an unthinkable event, but regards it as an hypothesis which is possible, does he not think that it would be preferable in that hypothesis for us to have an independent nuclear deterrent?
Mr. Shinwell: Being something of a philosopher, strange as it may seem, I regard nothing as unthinkable. Nothing is impossible in this mystical world of ours. It could well be that some day the United States would regard Europe, including this country, as expendable.
Mr. Irvine: What then?
Mr. Shinwell: It will be just too bad. If I am asked, as I am, to suggest an alternative, does anybody in his senses —and I am sure that my hon. and learned Friend is a very intelligent person and is obviously in his senses, or he would not be here—seriously believe that we can make a contribution to a deterrent, leaving the United States aside, knowing that the United States has the malicious idea that we could be expendable some day? Could we then provide an effective deterrent which would prevent a potential enemy from making mincemeat of us, if that enemy so desired?
Mr. Paget Mr. Paget rose—
Mr. Shinwell: I hope hon. Members will notice that it is always the hon. and learned Members and, of course, the intellectuals who rise to their feet to interrupt me. But as a working-class product, may I be excused if I do not give way? It distracts my attention.
I do not want to speak at length because I know that many of my hon. Friends wish to speak. Indeed, it was not my intention to speak at all. [Laughter] I knew that would be disbelieved. In fact, I was very reluctant to speak because I took part in the recent defence debate and I thought that others might be very effective substitutes.
I want to come to my conclusion, which is this. So far as the Government are concerned, do we really need an in-
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quiry? I shall vote for it, of course. In this matter these benches are completely unanimous. When it comes to an indictment of the Government we are as one, and so we shall remain. Of course, there may be one or two on the Opposition Front Bench who do not agree, but we on the back benches are solid in our protest against Government policy on this issue.
In fact, the Minister of Defence gave the whole case away. We had the inquiry. He told us the facts and we believed what he said. Why should we not believe him? As I have already stated, he has proved beyond any possibility of doubt that we have no effective deterrent, in spite of all the money we have spent. He went on to prove that in spite of the assistance that we expected to receive from the United States, from the Skybolt, the Polaris missile and the rest, it would be a long time before we would receive them. In reply to a Question that I put to him, based on the speech made by the Secretary of State for Air in the recent debate on the Air Estimates, he admitted that if we got the Skybolt we should have to get new bombers or, at any rate, adapt the existing planes. That is what the right hon. Gentleman said. He said that we would have to adapt them and we were not quite sure whether the Skybolt would suit the adapted bomber. That is the position. We have had the inquiry this afternoon. We shall vote for another inquiry, of course, but in fact we have had one. It is a complete indictment of Her Majesty's Government.
In conclusion, I should like to say how pleased I was to listen to my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper. It was a courageous speech—make no mistake about that. It will have far-reaching implications. It is true that at the end of his speech he realised that this was a very difficult position for him to occupy. I can understand it. That is something that happens to politicians and statesmen, and one must accept it. He was anxious not to turn down some of his colleagues or throw them overboard. I can understand that. Nevertheless, although he said that the Government are to blame for causing the change in our policy, he knows in his heart, as we all know, that we have got to say quite

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seriously one of these days that we cannot proceed with this nuclear deterrent because we are unable to produce something worth while and effective.
Therefore, consider the alternative— first, to rely upon the aid afforded us by the United States of America; second, as the right hon. Member for Carshalton said, and as many of us have said, including my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg), by producing a worth while land and air force—a conventional force, even though there may be some tactical atomic weapons. Why should we object to that?
Finally, as I said to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition in the last debate, we should go out boldly advocating disarmament, to rouse this country. I believe disarmament to be the desire of every hon. Member on the other side of the House, as it is the desire of the vast majority of people in this country. Let us boldly demand that and say it to our allies in particular. Leaving aside all political disputation, dislikes and prejudices let us say to the Prime Minister, "Go to the Summit Conference and say that and we shall back you up for all we are worth."
Sir Alexander Spearman: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that, before this disarmament comes, we should afford full facilities to the United States to have their nuclear weapons here?
Mr. Shinwell: They are here at present. They are sited in this country. I do not believe that the time has yet arrived to say to the United States, "Take your aircraft and your missiles out of this country", but I think the time will come when that may happen.
6.21 p.m.
Mr. Airey Neave: One of the many points made by the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) was that we have no effective deterrent at the present time. I do not agree with that view, and I propose to develop that point in due course. I agree with him that this is by far the most important subject that this House has debated for a very long time, and I am sure that in all quarters of the House we are very glad that we are having a full day in which to debate it.
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I must also congratulate my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence on his very patient and effective explanation of the history of Blue Streak. It was an answer to an equally frank and courageous speech made by the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), who suggested that a mistake had been made with Blue Streak. I do not agree that a mistake has been made, but that is a point which I shall wish to develop later.
I wish to stick closely to the subject of Blue Streak in practical terms. The moral of all this discussion is that it is easier to make nuclear weapons than it is to find effective means to deliver them. That has been made quite clear during the debate. The gulf between theory and practice in this terribly complex technological field is often very large. Considerable changes in the technology of nuclear warfare have occurred, and even if one disagrees with the policy of an independent contribution I do not think anybody will disagree with those changes.
I do not think it is a laughing matter if this amount of money has actually been lost, but the question is whether it is lost. In this case expenditure on Blue Streak has provided a great deal of "know-how" and experience which can be used in a peace-time capacity. I intend to refer to it as a launching vehicle in the non-military sphere. Secondly, I wish to say something about the effect of this decision on our deterrent policy.
I ought to mention that I am a director of a firm which has a very small interest in the Blue Streak project. There is nothing wrong with the Blue Streak missile. It was a very good project. Its workmanship, so far as we know, was of a high order. Militarily it had great potential advantages. Its range was at least 2,500 nautical miles and it had considerable accuracy. We know that from the tests which have been made with Black Knight, with which we obtained more or less 100 per cent. accuracy.
For that reason it has been mooted in many circles, and many hon. Members supported the idea, that a limited space mission could be given to Blue Streak, of which Blue Streak would be the first stage of the project. We would require a second stage—a solid-fuel element which would come from Black Knight. The point is that the major part of the

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first stage of the rocket to carry out space exploration is already in existence.
I do not intend to devote much time to the question of space technology because I know that the Government are examining the matter, and it is difficult to say what the cost would be and how much would be obtained from it. On the other hand, the idea of this country having some kind of space programme should not be derided or caricatured. The efforts of the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. de Freitas) and of my hon. Friends the Members for Eastleigh (Mr. D. Price) and Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Corfield) in their Adjournment debates have been excellent, and, although the subject is complicated, I think the Government should be pressed a little more on this matter.
I do not know whether hon. Members who have studied space research read the letter in The Times by Sir Robert Renwick three or four days ago in which he suggested a Commonwealth programme or even a European programme of space research. Blue Streak is a very good vehicle for this purpose; it is technically excellent, according to my information, and one must bear in mind that Europe possesses no similar major launching vehicle for this purpose. There is a possibility of co-operation in this field.
People ask what we should get out of a space programme and how much it would cost. Obviously, the cost would have to be limited according to our resources, but I think our technological progress in this country requires that we should participate in a space programme. There are several commercial and other applications of this work, such as in developing small electronic radar and computing devices, the exploitation of new metals and alloys, space-borne repeater stations for radio and television communications, weather surveys, navigation, world mapping and the whole field of geophysics. I do not believe that the House can deny that dependent as we are on the initiative and ingenuity of our scientists, we cannot allow technology to come to a halt. I ask the Minister of Defence to have a word with the Minister for Science and to let him know that hon. Members on both sides of the House are interested in the subject and hope to hear from him very soon.
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What is the effect of our philosophy of deterrence on the decision to do away with Blue Streak? As I see it—and I was for a short time at the Air Ministry —the basic philosophy of deterrence is the degree of risk which an aggressor must take in launching a nuclear attack. To this end, I have hitherto thought, and I still think in spite of the right hon. Gentleman's persuasions, that we must make an independent contribution to the nuclear deterrent. I do not like the term "independent deterrent". I prefer to speak of an independent contribution.
Mr. Sydney Silverman: They are two very different things.
Mr. Neave: They are entirely different things. In my opinion, no deterrent that we can manufacture in this country can be entirely independent in terms of technology. That was true of Blue Streak. On the other hand, an independent contribution to the defence of the West in terms of nuclear warfare will still be necessary. I realise that some hon. Members may disagree, and I gather that a change of attitude is occurring on the benches opposite; but, be that as it may, for the purpose of this argument the question to ask is, how should we plan to deliver the deterrent—as my right hon. Friend said, that is the real problem—if it became necessary to do so?
The right hon. Member for Easington says that we should go out to preach disarmament. I am strongly in favour of that. In the meantime, however, we must decide, with due regard to the responsibilities carried by those on the Front Bench, what we should do about our contribution, and we must decide it in practical terms. The real point is that any vehicle such as an aircraft which is capable of carrying a weapon with a nuclear warhead must have a good prospect of getting through the defences at the other end. Surface-to-air guided weapons which are now being developed make it more and more difficult for the V-bomber to penetrate the defences. Therefore, one requires some form of guided weapon like Blue Steel at least until the mid-1960s, according to present calculations.
We can all be wrong in these matters, and several people have been wrong during the past few years in their

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calculations, but when the right hon. Gentleman says that there is no effective deterrent today is he saying that the present V-bomber force with thermonuclear bombs would not afford effective retaliation?
Mr. Shinwell: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but, on the point which he has just raised about Blue Steel, will he allow me to quote what was said by the Secretary of State for Air?
Mr. Neave: Certainly.
Mr. Shinwell: I have already directed the right hon. Gentleman's attention to it. Speaking of Thor, he said:
"We recognise that Thor will at some stage become too vulnerable to the enemy missile to be wholly credible as a valid deterrent, and that over the years the Blue Steel guided bomb will become less capable if penetrating the enemy defences".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd March, 1960; Vol. 618, c. 1441.]
Mr. Neave: "Over the years", yes. I was saying that I thought that the V-Bomber equipped with Blue Steel would be sufficient for that purpose only until the mid-1960s. I think Chat that is so, and my view is confirmed by my right hon. Friend. After that stage, if we are to continue to use an airborne launching vehicle, which I think is very possible, we shall require a further missile which is more effective in the penetration of defences. Then the question of Skybolt arises. It is quite clear that after the late 1960s only a ballistic missile will be able to penetrate the surface-to-air guided weapon defence system in an aggressor zone. Looking back on the matter, therefore, I consider that the decision in 1955 to make a ballistic missile must have been right, although we have had to develop a different kind of method of delivery. The "know-how" gained in the work on Blue Streak will be very useful in the future. The problem remains how to carry it.
As my right hon. Friend explained, it was first thought that we could rely on fixed site missiles, but during the last 18 months, as he said, it became more and more clear that the factor of vulnerability was very serious. In the earlier part of last year we heard more from the Americans about the possible use of Skybolt. Some cold water has been poured on the proposal to use Skybolt
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with the V-bomber, but I am bound to say that, from what I heard my right hon. Friend say today, it appears that the Mark II V-bomber could be adapted and modified to carry Skybolt. This is very important. If that is so, it means a longer lease of life and a saving of money for the V-bombers. The V-bombers will be able to carry on, at least until 1970.
There are several choices here, in deciding to do without Blue Streak. We have had to consider Polaris, and we have had to consider the improvements in accuracy of the Russian missiles— all matters connected with the present decision. What is really the best method? We have only a hazy idea of what Polaris would cost. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Minister and my right hon. Friend the Member for Car-shalton (Mr. Head) about that. If I were to express an opinion—it would not be a very expert one—I should say that the weakest link in the use of nuclear submarines would be radio communication and their vulnerability to conventional weapon attack.
It must be remembered that Blue Streak was not just a "dud" thing on which money was wasted. Until very recently—indeed, until now—the highest scientific and technical opinion in some quarters in this country was that Blue Streak was not only a workable proposition but that it was the best bet. The decision has now been taken, and I myself agree with it. I do not think that we can in this small country say that fixed-site missiles are the best way of delivering the deterrent.
There are two basic needs for the deterrent. First, it must be incapable of being damaged or destroyed by conventional weapons. This was mentioned in a speech by Mr. Pardoe of de Havilland the other day, but what he omitted to say was that it must be incapable of being destroyed by nuclear weapons. I do not believe that we could have a fixed-base site, even underground, invulnerable to hydrogen bomb explosion. In my view, therefore, my right hon. Friend's decision was absolutely right.
Coming back to the main point of my argument, I consider that our investment in Bomber Command justifies the choice of launching the missile from a bomber,

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following up with Blue Streak and, I hope, success with Skybolt. An effective deterrent must be something which leaves the attacker in doubt. Skybolt has a considerable range, potentially, at any rate; I agree that we are speaking of potentialities. In my view, a large number of V-bombers fitted with Skybolt would present an effective deterrent.
Something has been said about the bombers being dispersed. As hon. Members already know, they have scrambled in four minutes in this country. In addition, dispersal throughout the Commonwealth and all over the world is a possibility, and I am glad to hear from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air that arrangements are being made for this to be done. Dispersal is a very important matter in the delivery of the missile. I suggest that Bomber Command could now give a very good account of itself, even with what it has in thermonuclear weapons. There will be the Mark II V-bombers to come along. The Vulcan II is coming into service, and there will be the new electronic counter-measures.
We can organise the deterrent very effectively to evade enemy attack, and, in my view, the importance of Bomber Command in this matter has been greatly underestimated. We are all entitled to our theories. This is mine, and I think it has more practical value because, as a result of our investment in Bomber Command, we have a launching vehicle actually available.
It has been suggested in some newspapers critical of the Government that a gap has now been created in the deterrent. I see no evidence of a gap at present. If one looks at the time scale which my right hon. Friend described, it is not fair to say that there is a gap. It would be very conceited to say that one knew what would be the position in seven or eight years from now. Indeed, I think it rather conceited of people to say that they knew two years ago that Blue Streak was ineffective and wrong.
The question is whether my right hon. Friend, in all the circumstances of case, took the right decision. In my view, he did.
Finally, the 64,000 dollar question strategically is what would happen perhaps up to 1970 with regard to aircraft as missile launchers. Nobody could
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possibly answer that. In the past people have canvassed the possibility of a supersonic bomber, but I am told that it is not necessary to launch a missile like Skybolt at a supersonic speed. It has also been said that the take-off area for these aircraft would be just as open to nuclear attack as the fixed-base missile sites of Blue Streak which were intended to be very deep underground and probably in solid rock. If bombers can get off the ground as quickly as they can at the moment, as hon. Members who have been to Bomber Command stations will appreciate, it is less risky than being in a static position.
I suggest that hon. Members should reject the Motion because this decision was clearly right. If the Blue Streak missile, which has been devised and designed with so much British skill, is not lost to research, particularly to space research, the money has not been wasted. The suggestion of some people that they knew years ago that they would not like Blue Streak is not borne out by the facts. What would those who say that today have done? Would they not have had Blue Streak at all? If so, there would have been no deterrent of any description in the ballistic missile sphere, and we would not ever have been able to acquire or develop a ballistic missile. Investment in Bomber Command plus Skybolt seems to me the best practical proposition at the moment.
I am quite clear that in taking this decision my right hon. Friend took into account all the problems which hon. Members have raised and I believe that he deserves congratulation for his courage and his candour.
6.43 p.m.
Mr. Donald Wade: I was delighted to hear the speech of the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head). It provided a very impressive example of yet one more distinguished person coming round to the Liberal point of view. It has been very noticeable that the most valuable contributions to this debate have been made by those whose views are now very much in line with the view put forward by my Liberal colleagues and myself for a number of years.
I welcome the decision to continue the debate until a later hour than was originally proposed. For an issue of

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such grave importance it was essential that there should be adequate time. For that reason I do not propose to take up many minutes because I have no wish to stifle the many and various points of view which, no doubt, will be forthcoming from the Labour benches. I thought it extraordinary that so limited a time should be originally requested by the Opposition. The right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) said yesterday that the Motion covered relatively a narrow point, but, frankly, I thought that very unconvincing.
Looking at the matter as objectively as I could, it appeared to me that the time allotted was designed to exclude the great majority of back bench Members. If I am being unfair in that criticism and if that is not so, there must be another reason. The wording of the Motion carries an important implication. I think that it is this. One must assume that this episode is to be treated by the Opposition merely as a miscalculation of military planning, as a serious error of judgment involving very great expense, rather than one of total policy. If that is so, it follows, in spite of the courageous remarks of the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), that the official Opposition view is still one of support for the independent deterrent.
Mr. Harold Wilson: I hope that the hon. Member will recollect that I said yesterday and my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) said today that we must have a wide-ranging debate on the whole defence and foreign policy implications of the breakdown of the Government's defence policy. But that does not remove from us the need, indeed the duty, as a House of Commons Co inquire, on a relatively narrow front, into the very serious question of the failure of the Government to maintain a proper stewardship of the nation's money.
Mr. Wade: I am dealing with the implications of the Blue Streak affair. I am bound to draw certain conclusions from the nature of the Motion.
In order to refresh my recollection of the opinions of the right hon. Member for Belper, I turned up his party political broadcast on 30th March, 1957. I do not think that I would do him any injustice if I were to pick out two ques-
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tions and answers. The first question was:
"Why does Britain need a hydrogen bomb, in the opinion of the Labour Party?"
The reply was:
"I want us to have our own foreign policy, and that means having the means to carry it out."
The second question was:
"Can you envisage a situation where Britain, having the hydrogen bomb, would use it without American participation?"
The answer was:
"I can envisage a situation in which we might want to threaten—and, after all, the value of the deterrent is the threat".
I do not accept the validity of that view.
The second implication of the Motion seems to be this. The official Opposition appear to believe that they could have done this job better, that in striving to make Britain an independent nuclear Power they would have been more successful, that if they had been in power there would have been some kind of, not very clearly defined, Socialist "Red Streak" superior to the Conservative Blue Streak. I challenge that point of view, just as I challenge the view expressed by the Minister of Defence when he spoke about the nuclear deterrent. That is the expression he used. He did not refer to the "independent contribution". On 13th April he again used the words "independent deterrent". He said that Her Majesty's Government were determined to maintain the independent deterrent. In spite of the doubts that have been cast on this during the debate, it would seem that the Government and the Opposition are still in agreement on it.
I hope that as an outcome of this debate there will be a change of policy on the part of the Government and a public recognition of the necessity for a very different policy from that which has been pursued in the last five years. Of course, I regret the vast expenditure and the fact that warnings have gone unheeded. I am aware that waste has occurred before under this Government and other Governments, both in the sphere of military operations and others. I remember the debate on the groundnuts scheme very well, in which I took part and criticised the Government of the day. I think that members of the public were justified in criticising the Government for the loss of taxpayers'

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money. But there is a difference today. First, the amount expended on the Blue Streak venture is double the amount expended on the groundnuts scheme.
Mr. Wigg: More than double.
Mr. Wade: I grant the hon. Member that—at least double. The groundnuts scheme, which I take as an illustration, was an exasperating waste of taxpayers' money; but this is more than that. This has involved a humiliation to this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I think that it is a humiliation. One has only to read some of the foreign Press to realise that. We have been told that we must not go naked into a conference chamber, but this surely is advertising our nakedness. I do not accept the premise about going naked into the conference chamber but obviously this is advertising our nakedness.
Mr. John Hall: Would the hon. Gentleman mind developing a little his argument that we are now advertising the fact that we are naked? I think that it has already been brought out that we still have a V-bomber force capable of delivering the nuclear bomb and that at present we have a vehicle capable of delivering a nuclear weapon.
Mr. Wade: By far the best answer to that was the speech made by the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head).
Mr. Watkinson: I think that the House should keep the record straight. I hope that the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade) does not disagree with what my hon. Friend has just said, which is perfectly true, that at the present moment the V-bomber force has a total destructive capacity with its nuclear bombs that forms an integral part of Strategic Air Command, and the deterrent of the West.
Mr. Wade: When the Minister replies, I hope that we shall be told whether the Government have any intention to use or dare think of using it. It would seem to me that this policy of experimentation with Blue Streak is the outcome of a policy which can be traced back to the White Paper of 1955, Cmd. 9391. In that White Paper, as some hon. Members will recollect, it was stated that the United States Govern-
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ment were now proceeding with full-scale production of thermo nuclear weapons. The Soviet Government were clearly following the same policy. The White Paper continued:
"The United Kingdom also has the ability to produce such weapons. After fully considering all the implications of this step the Government have thought it their duty to proceed with their development and production."
I believe that was the initial error. It has been this attempt to keep up with the nuclear Joneses which has led us into trouble, confusion and humiliation. Why is this kind of situation bound to arise? I am quite prepared to consider that calmly and dispassionately. I think that it was very well put in a leading article in the Guardian on 26th April last. Surely the point is that Britain, with her limited resources, cannot afford several different lines of development at the same time, which is inevitable if we wish to be an independent nuclear Power. There are other reasons why we should not attempt to be an independent nuclear Power, but that alone is an explanation why these troubles and this colossal waste is bound to occur.
Time and again my Liberal colleagues and I have pointed out that this kind of thing must inevitably happen. I know that it is very exasperating when people say, "I told you so". May I, for the record, quote from one Liberal Amendment as far back as 17th April, 1957? It read:
"… continuing production by Great Britain of hydrogen bombs, and other nuclear weapons on her own, assists in no way the security and safety of her people, is likely to lead to increasing waste of resources and will compel other countries to follow Great Britain's example for reasons of prestige …"
I believe that we have been proved right. If only the Labour Opposition had taken the same line, we might still have persuaded Her Majesty's Government to adopt a more realistic policy and have avoided the humiliation of this Blue Streak disaster.
The tragedy of it all is that there is still complete uncertainty about the future. In spite of what the Minister said, I think that is true. There is no guarantee that Skybolt will be any more successful than Blue Streak. I could produce massive quotations from distinguished experts who support that view.

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I could also quote from many newspapers, generally very favourable to the Government, also warning us as to the future. The Daily Mail of Monday of this week stated:
"There is no guarantee that Skybolt will be ready in time to replace Blue Steel. It may not ever be completed …. Such uncertainty is bad enough in itself. But it is only the symptom of a much greater defect—the lack of a basic, clear-cut defence policy."
I do not want to be merely negative. Before I conclude, may I say that I would welcome a policy which would gain the confidence of the great majority of people in this country? I believe that such a policy should be based on three aims. Firstly, interdependence in defence with all that that implies, namely, that we should recognise that in future we cannot go it alone. Secondly, disarmament by agreement, coupled with inspection and control. Thirdly, some form of world authority to ensure that these agreements are enforced. I know that there are all kinds of practical difficulties but, at any rate, therein we have three pillars on which policy could be built up which, although it might not satisfy the unilateral disarmers, would commend itself to a great many people.
In my view this insistence on the independent nuclear deterrent makes it far more difficult to carry out a policy based on those three aims. As the Economist pointed out on 23rd April:
"The only issue that really matters now is whether Britain ought to continue"—
this was a reference to this forthcoming debate—
"to try to have an independent deterrent."
A very grave weakness in the Opposition Motion is that it evades the real issue and fails to deal with that problem. So I make this plea to the Government Let us by all means embark on space research and make full use of our scientists—we have some very distinguished scientists in this country and in the Commonwealth—but do not let us pretend that we can usefully add to the keeping of the peace in the world by this concept of an independent nuclear deterrent. Let us abandon this obsession for the need of nuclear sovereignty. That is the plea I would make to the Government, that they should make it clear that they no longer pretend that Britain can in any way help towards maintaining peace by competing in the independent
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nuclear arms race. That is my plea. It is a matter of very great regret that no similar plea has been forthcoming from Her Majesty's Opposition today in this vital debate.
7.0 p.m.
Mr. Aubrey Jones: The debate began this afternoon on the question—Blue Streak or no Blue Streak? It has expanded during the course of the day to the much wider question—independent deterrent or no independent deterrent? The discussion of this question seems to have been the main occupation of the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Wade).
I will follow the hon. Member briefly on the wider aspect and then I should like to bring the debate back to the apparently narrower but, I think, no less important topic of Blue Streak. For my part, I have never been enamoured of the phrase "independent deterrent", because if it came to the point I am profoundly sceptical of the ability of this country, a political democracy geographically highly vulnerable, to play the perilous game of bluff inherent in that concept. I do not like the phrase "independent deterrent", nor do I like the phrase "independent contribution to the deterrent". Indeed, it seems to me that the phrase misses the point. The point is not that we should try to exercise a deterrent independently of the United States. The point is that we should so ensure the solidarity of the alliance with the United States that we never need to act independently.
An alliance consisting of a major partner and a minor partner, in which the minor partner leans passively on the major partner, is a weak and insecure alliance. On the other hand, an alliance in which the minor partner makes a contribution of importance and significance in fields which the major partner considers to be significant is a much more secure and reliable alliance.
I believe, therefore, in a contribution to the alliance in this sense—not a contribution in the sense of weight of hitting power, but a contribution in technique, in thought. That is the kind of contribution which we have made in the field of nuclear warheads. I assert as a matter of historical fact that that has led to a tightening of the Anglo-American alliance.

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I would not like to see us abandon that kind of contribution. I would like to see us maintain it. Indeed, in so far as new fields of significance open up, we should aspire to make a comparable contribution in them. I shall return to that point later, but I should like now to address myself to Blue Streak.
Mr. Wigg: The right hon. Gentleman will realise that the Leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister have asserted on behalf of their parties that it is essential that we should have an independent deterrent in order to assert an influence with the United States. Therefore, the case the right hon. Gentleman is making, with which I have very considerable sympathy, as he knows, is very different from the case which has consistently been made by the Prime Minister, and is still being made.
Mr. Aubrey Jones: That may very well be. My case is that influence can be ascribed to a complementary contribution. It need not go to the point of an independent contribution.
Mr. Wigg: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Aubrey Jones: I come now to Blue Streak. The quaint characteristic of the debate today has been that not one speaker so far has questioned the wisdom of the Government's decision to cancel Blue Streak. I find myself in a solitary position. It is a difficult and complicated subject on which I have no wish to be dogmatic, and I hope that dogmatism is foreign to my nature. However, I have doubts about the decision, and I have even greater doubts about the reasoning lying behind it and the direction in which the reasoning may take us.
The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence talked about the rapidly changing technological scene. I will pose a question in relativity. Which is the faster—is it the fleeting landscape outside or the train in which one is sitting? Is it the rapidly changing technological scene outside, or is it our own arrangements and practices which make it difficult, if not impossible, for us to look at any of these subjects with any constancy? This is an important subject to which we should address ourselves. It
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is a subject more meriting of inquiry than many aspects of the topic about which we have been talking today.
A project such as Blue Streak lasts the greater part of ten years. Any significant technological project these days lasts the greater part of ten years. In the course of ten years, we in this country are likely to have three administrations. Within those administrations we have many Ministers, each Minister bringing to the project, and being expected by public opinion and the Press to bring to the project, a new look.
In addition, judging from past form, within the space of about ten years we in this country are likely to undergo three economic crises. To overcome each economic crisis the Chancellor of the Exchequer is tempted, and succumbs to the temptation, to lop the annual allocation of every long-term project. The wonder is in these circumstances, not that the outside technological scene is changing so rapidly, but that we can ever accomplish anything technologically significant.
Whether we agree or not with the cancellation of Blue Streak, this aspect of the problem is very deserving of our attention. Any Minister inheriting responsibility for a long-term project such as Blue Streak must pay a high regard to the claims of continuity, unless the case for a change is very considerable.
We have heard from my right hon. Friend that the case for the change is not economic, but military. It is the preference for a mobile weapon over a static one. The generalisation that a mobile weapon is better than a static weapon is unexceptional, but is the generalisation applicable to the particular weapon of the deterrent? I have suggested that the weakness of this country, a political democracy geographically vulnerably placed, is that I doubt whether we have the ability to conduct the game of bluff inherent in the deterrent.
If the deterrent weapon of this country, instead of being static, were semi-static like an aircraft or even fully mobile like a submarine, would anyone suggest that our ability to conduct the game of bluff was thereby significantly enhanced? At the very best, the improvement would be marginal. In the

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case of the airborne missile, the advantage is negligible. In the case of the seaborne missile, namely the Polaris missile carried by a submarine, which has had its fans amongst speakers this afternoon, the theoretical advantage is greater, but this is off-set by a very considerable loss.
The most significant fact facing defence planning in this country is the likely disappearance, for one reason or another, over the next 20 or 25 years of our land bases overseas. This will mean compulsory recourse by this country to a maritime strategy and the increasing assumption by the Navy of the functions for limited operations overseas now performed by the Royal Air Force and the Army. This is a desirable development, but we shall be distracted and diverted from that development if, in addition, we make the Navy the carrier of the deterrent. To my mind, it is militarily prejudicial at this juncture to dangle before the eyes of the Navy that it and not the Air Force might become the carrier of the deterrent.
There is a case for this country making a contribution to the deterrent. There is no case for this country pursuing refinement after refinement of the deterrent; and in so far as we pursue refinements, whether we are given or whether we buy weapons from overseas, so the tension between the deterrent and conventional weapons will increase and not diminish. This aspect of my right hon. Friend's speech today and of the statement made before the Recess disturbs me quite considerably.
The other aspect of the reasoning running behind the decision is that on military grounds Blue Streak is cancelled but on scientific grounds it may be reprieved. A neat distinction is drawn between the military and the scientific. I wonder whether this neat distinction is in keeping with the character of the times and the developments of real significance which are taking place in the world. I would ask hon. and right hon. Members to take their minds back two or three years to the International Geophysical Year. The Russians saw in that Year an opportunity for a superb technological achievement. To encompass that achievement both military and non-military closely co-operated.
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The Americans, on the other hand, clung to the traditional distinction of the West that military has nothing to do with non-military and that the International Geophysical Year was purely scientific. The military therefore held aloof, but when they saw the Russians sweeping the field they stepped in. The result was that they lost the most significant round of the cold war.
The truth is that the Russians see a continuous constant struggle in which the military and non-military side of things are closely interwoven. This is the real nature of the cold war. We, on the other hand, with a different tradition, seeing war as the last ditch effort of a country to retain its identity, judge things by military criteria alone. I question the wisdom of this. It is now a truism that the most important engine of technological development in this country is the military. That may be sad, but it is a fact, and I do not think that any substitute will be found for it in this country.
I hope that I am not given to dogmatism, but I venture on a prophecy and say that the very fact of the dispersal of the old Ministry of Supply and the establishment of the Ministry of Science, which is divorced from military science, is calculated to ensure that no alternative to the military programme will ever be found as an engine of technological progress. One of the saddest spectacles on the British scene at the moment is the Minister for Science, aware of the problem, given an impossible mandate, and patently at his wits' end to know what to do about it. This being so, I suggest that when we look at items of the military research and development programme we should look at them not only from a military point of view, which is the only point of view that has been expressed today, but both from the military and technological point of view.
I should like to say a few words about the history of Blue Streak, and, if I may, carry the history further back than it has been carried today. Let us go back to the end of the war. We in this country suffered more than people in any other from the new German rocket weapon, V.2. When the war was over we were the country that did least about it. The Russians went on immediately to develop

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the V.2 further. The Americans moved into the same field a little later. We deliberately kept out.
I make no reproach, but I think the reason why we kept out still characterises our policy today. We kept out of it because we felt that the defensive rocket was more important than the offensive rocket. In other words, we were mesmerised by the triumph of the Battle of Britain, and I think that this characterises much of our military thinking today. Anyhow, we kept out of it, but ten years later we began to appreciate the significance of what was happening and the Blue Streak project was started.
Three years ago, in 1957, my right hon. Friend the present Minister of Aviation, who was then occupying the Ministry of Defence, called for a review of the entire military development programme and addressed himself to the question whether he should keep in being a supersonic bomber or keep in being Blue Streak. He could have argued exactly what the Minister of Defence is arguing today—that the supersonic bomber equipped with guided bombs of longer and longer range would have given him the mobility which Blue Streak did not give. Indeed, the great controversy which took place at that time between the protagonists of manned aircraft and the missile was precisely about that. Nevertheless, the present Minister of Aviation, then Minister of Defence, decided to cancel the supersonic bomber and retain Blue Streak.
In my judgment, that decision was right and it was right for the reason that, important as mobility was, Blue Streak opened up an entirely new field of technology far transcending in importance the purely military application, a field likely in the course of time to be important civilly as well as militarily. By mastering the technology of this rocket, this country in the course of time would make a contribution befitting its talents in an entirely new sphere. That was the real case for the decision taken in 1957, and in my judgment that case is every bit as valid today as it was three years ago.
There have since then been two developments. The first is the Skybolt, the airborne ballistic missile. I suggest that it has negligible military advantage,
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and that in the larger technological sense it has no significance at all. The other new development is the submarine-carried solid fuel rocket Polaris. Again I suggest that militarily the adoption by this country of such a project would result in a net loss. Civilly it does not come near the significance of Blue Streak, if only because the solid fuel rocket has a lower range than the liquid fuel rocket, and the liquid fuel rocket is the one that matters for going outside the earth's atmosphere. In my judgment, the case which prevailed in 1957 is every bit as valid today. Nevertheless, the decision is now made. We have now drawn a distinction between military application and scientific value.
We have drawn this distinction, and one of two things may now happen. The first thing that may happen is that Blue Streak may be continued for purely scientific purposes. Even if it is continued for scientific purposes, it will have lost the impetus that is behind it by virtue of the military programme, and having entered this field late for primarily technological reasons we shall still be continuing slowly. In addition, we may be spending money on Skybolt or Polaris. In other words, instead of riding one horse we shall be riding two horses, with the certainty that we shall ride both ineffectively.
The other alternative is that Blue Streak is dropped entirely. In that event the result will be that having in 1957, for the sake of Blue Streak, consciously, willingly, accepted a setback in the field of manned aircraft, in addition in 1960, we shall be walking completely out of the sphere of the rocket, with the certainty that we shall never again be able to re-enter it.
In my judgment, both of these eventualities would be most regrettable. In my view, a more sensible decision—I cannot refrain from adding, a politically more prudent decision—would have been heavily to cut down on the number of Blue Streak missiles to be deployed because, as we heard earlier, the number of missiles is responsible for a very sizable part of the total cost of £500 million, and to cut out even the underground sites, but to have retained it as a project and to have deployed it for military purposes in small numbers, thus uniting the technological and military considerations.

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Hon. and right hon. Members may ask, can we afford even this? Can this country afford an expenditure of between £20 million and £25 million over ten years for a project like Blue Streak? Let us remember that when we ask the question, can we afford it, we have in mind not only if there is some physical limit of expenditure beyond which we cannot go but also, are we expending the right way this side of the limit? How do we choose to spend our money this side of the limit?
I cannot refrain from observing that in respect of defence we are maintaining two surface-to-air guided weapons, the two Services, the Army and the Air Force, so far having failed to reconcile their requirements. We are developing a number of weapons to such unique specifications peculiar to ourselves, that I doubt whether they will ever command a single sale abroad. I am thinking of the 45-ton tank, the Lightning interceptor aircraft and the T.S.R. 2 strike reconnaissance aircraft. In the missile age we still maintain quite a sizable Fighter Command, and we have committed the imprudence of bunching all the re-equipment of the Army together at one fell moment instead of spacing it out over time.
That is the defence programme. Outside the defence programme, we are spending far more in agricultural subsidies than on the total military research and development programme. The annual expenditure on the egg subsidy, which has been going on far longer than Blue Streak, is at least 50 per cent. higher than the annual expenditure on Blue Streak. In addition, some of the recent increases in civil expenditure appear to me to have much more to do with shoring up the uneconomic in this country than on introducing the country to novel and significant fields.
It may well be that the two parties in this Chamber, in the competition for votes which goes on between us, may find ourselves driven to spend money on backward-looking things rather than on forward-looking things. I think indeed that we are running this risk, but if we run it we do so with our eyes open. Let us remember that civilisations have flourished not on moral precept; they have flourished and grown strong on
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technique. It is also my view that this is one of the sounder elements of the Marxist doctrine. This, more than any other age, is a technological age. I cannot believe that this country will continue to exert any influence in the world if it deliberately walks out of one of the most significant technological fields which has been opened up for a long time. I feel that we are perilously close to that, and for that reason I much regret the decision which we are debating today.
7.26 p.m.
Mr. Woodrow Wyatt: The speech to which we have just listened by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones) has been quite the most impressive of any that we have heard from the other side of the House today. It has been based on years of study and knowledge of this subject, and anyone who listened to it must have been shaken if he held the view that the Government have taken the right decision.
I noticed that the occupants of the Government Front Bench seemed extremely disturbed and irritated by the right hon. Gentleman's speech, as well they may have been, because it was so packed with knowledge and information that they will find it difficult to refute. Indeed, it made a cast-iron case for a public inquiry of the kind for which the Opposition are asking. We are handicapped at present in this country because we have no adequate machinery for going into these highly important but complex and technical matters in any satisfactory way.
All that happens to Parliament is that the Government come along, announce a decision, and we are left with it, without ever having been presented with facts and information so that we can know whether the decision is a good or a bad one. We would do well to follow the American system and have the equivalent of a Congressional inquiry or committee which could go into such matters before it is too late. If we could have an inquiry about Crichel Down, which may have been important to the individual, surely we can have an inquiry about this matter, which is vital to the future of the country.
Last Wednesday the Minister of Defence announced that Britain, which has always been among the leaders in

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every major branch of science and technology, for the first time since the industrial revolution was going to opt out of the race. That was also the burden of what the right hon. Member for Hall Green has just said, and I agree with him. If that does not justify a public inquiry, nothing will.
Nothing new has happened since the Prime Minister, when Minister of Defence, agreed to the project of the Blue Streak 5 years ago. Everybody knew then what the reliability was likely to be in accuracy of any enemy weapon that might be launched upon it. Certainly nothing new has happened since last November, to which the Minister of Defence referred this afternoon, and nothing new has happened since 8th February, when I asked in a supplementary question to the Minister of Aviation whether he would give an assurance that there was no danger of the project of Blue Streak being cancelled. The right hon. Gentleman replied:
"I think these are rather dangerous thoughts".
When I asked what was the answer, the Minister replied:
"I know of no intention to discontinue the development of Blue Streak."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th February, 1960; Vol. 477, c. 20.]
Either the right hon. Gentleman was badly informed by his colleagues or he was not very candid with the House. Certainly there has been no new scientific information since 8th February or since last November, or indeed since five years ago, to justify this decision.
The vulnerability of the sites has always been well known. The hope was that if, as planned, there were forty of them, three or four would always be missed in any enemy attack. This was always highly likely and therefore the Blue Streak would have retained its deterrent value.
The Minister of Aviation (Mr. Duncan Sandys): I do not like to be accused of not being frank with the House. One event of some importance has taken place since then. That is the adoption of Skybolt by the United States Government for inclusion in their development programme for the United States Air Force. Until the United States Government had officially adopted Skybolt for development for their own forces,
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clearly it would have been very irresponsible for us to think of basing our plans upon it.
Mr. Wyatt: Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that the whole of this vast project, which was planned to take ten years, was dependent upon whether the American Government might or might not adopt the development of an air-projected missile?
Mr. Sandys: It was an important consideration.
Mr. Wyatt: That may be so, but it should not have affected the Government's planning over a ten-year period. Every time one of the Ministers on the Front Bench opposite says something he justifies to the hilt our demand for a public inquiry. Each statement which comes is more astonishing than the one before. I do not believe that the right hon. Gentleman means what he says. I do not credit him with believing that he thinks that the real reason for dropping Blue Streak is that the Americans are to adopt Skybolt. It is surely not now argued that aerodromes are less vulnerable than fixed launching sites. Aerodromes can be more easily hit than launching sites.
If we are dropping Blue Streak and moving backwards in time, as the right hon. Member for Hall Green said, then we are also moving into greater vulnerability. I do not want to strike too much of a discordant note, but I agree with the right hon. Member for Hall Green that there was a good deal to be said in favour of Blue Streak. This was lately the favoured child of the Government. Now it is the expelled prodigal son. Apparently, there is no one to say a word in its favour, though all the experts were agreed until the other day that it was our own answer as an independent deterrent.
The Government now spread canards against Blue Streak. They whisper of its inefficiency and of the fifteen minutes it would take to get it off the ground. I believe that that is not true, however. I believe that plans were well ahead to fire Blue Streak in well under fifteen minutes, even though it has a liquid fuel projector.
We are told that Polaris may be acquired. Are we to be given this for nothing by the United States Government?

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The Government should answer this. Are we to be presented for nothing with Polaris and Skybolt? If we are not, we are saving no money by cancelling Blue Streak. To have ten submarines fitted with Polaris missiles would, I understand—and perhaps the Minister will contradict me if I am wrong—cost about £500 million and it could not even be claimed for certain that it would be as effective a weapon as Blue Streak. It would have mobility, but it would be very difficult to communicate with when it was deeply submerged. It might well surface to find that it could not get instructions from the Admiralty because the Admiralty had already been blown up, and it would not know what to do. It would not know for certain what its position was despite all the new intricate scientific devices. If one does not know where one's launching site is one does not know for certain whether it is going to hit the target.
It is certain that solid fuel rockets are better in speed of firing and mobility, but they do not have such a great range or capacity for carrying a warhead. I do not say that Blue Streak was perfect, but it was adequate for the stage which we had reached, which was for a weapon to carry our deterrent when the V-bomber became out of date in about five years' time. It was the only way in which we could have our own nuclear deterrent.
How can we say that a weapon which we have to buy from the Americans— who have not yet said for certain whether they are going to sell it—is an independent weapon to us? The Americans have made it clear that they are not at all likely to sell us Polaris. We have no assurance on that. How can we say, after this decision, that we have an independent nuclear deterrent? We have it at the moment with the V-bombers, but when that force comes to the end of its usefulness we shall not have it. We shall have instead a vacuum which the Government cannot fill.
I agree with the right hon. Member for Hall Green that we cannot switch this kind of programme on and off. Once we have dropped the military development of Blue Streak we have dropped the possibility of having a rocket programme of our own. If we
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decided to begin again in ten years' time we would be so far behind in technical knowledge that we could not do it. The decision we have taken is perhaps the most serious decision that Britain has taken in this century. We have taken the decision that we will not have our own independent nuclear deterrent, but will be dependent on the Americans. How long will they do this? Within a decade the Americans will have their own missile capable of being fired from the United States to any part of the world which they may want to attack or defend themselves from. Will they go on supplying us with Polaris and Skybolt missiles when they can do any job they need from America? The probability is that they will not.
At the same time, owing to the Government's refusal to join in the Common Market or to join in Europe, the European countries will have been adopting their own separate independent nuclear deterrent. It will be done jointly and at the moment it looks as though we are not going in with them. In ten years' time Europe will have its own independent nuclear deterrent, as will the United States, and we will have nothing. This is a very serious decision for us to have taken.
It is the first time in history that we have dropped out of a major military development and we have done so for the sake of only a few million pounds. It may seem shocking to refer to £100 million as being not very much money, but in these terms it is not. It is only £20 million a year and it is not wasted money because, as the right hon. Member for Hall Green pointed out, military and civilian scientific and technological advances go side by side. The one breeds the other, and if we have not the development going on with Blue Streak then we have cancelled out any possibility of entering the space age and reaping all the technical by-products which can flow from that kind of activity.
I do not think that £20 million a year is a lot to spend to try to keep Britain among the leaders in the world scientifically and technologically. Because we are dropping this kind of thing, other countries are looking to Russia and America for their new technical equipment, because they think that we are no

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longer capable of making it. This decision will only reinforce that view. This is not wasted money. It is investment in the future. If we do not do it, we will not be among the leaders in the future.
It is also an enormous discouragement to scientists and engineers if they are continually being asked to start some great new project only to have it cancelled half way through. They never see the fruits of their endeavours or see if they were really on the right lines. No one has mentioned that in the debate so far. They have been told that they are doing work of national importance and should not go to jobs in the United States or Canada, where they could get more money, but now they are told, "We have cancelled this because we have changed our minds".
That is the sort of thing which happened with the Avro O.R.330 supersonic bomber which was cancelled three years ago. Perhaps the decision to cancel it was right, but it was cancelled in order that effort could be concentrated on the Blue Streak. But now the Blue Streak is to be scrapped as well. Where will it end? Already many scientists and engineers are going overseas and more will go as a result of this decision.
It is not generally known in this country that the head of the Lockheed Discoverer satellite project in America is an Englishman who was trained at the Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farn-borough. That sort of thing will now be repeated all over industry. To complete the Blue Streak project would probably cost another £100 million a year for four years, including the cost of equipping and providing fixed launching sites and so on. I agree that that is a great deal of money and it may not be necessary, as the right hon. Member for Hall Green said, to go to that great length.
However, in terms of our defence budget is it so much money when it is remembered that we are spending £400 million a year on an obsolete conventional Navy which has no practical purpose of any sort? At least the Blue Streak is a project which has a by-product of providing more scientific "know-how" and the development of which can be applied to civilian projects as well. With the Navy", that is not the case. If the Government could not find the money in any
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other way, they could lop it off the money spent on the Navy.
There is still one way in which we might save something, although not everything, from the wreckage. That is to go on with the development of the Blue Streak for the space research programme. Even that has not been guaranteed by the Government. It is not very candid of the Government to say that, on the one hand, they are throwing away five years' work by our best scientists and engineers because they do not want to go on with a project for military purposes, but that, on the other hand, it may be, but they will not say until the debate is over, that Blue Streak will be used for a space research programme. Having gained their vote of confidence with their obedient ranks behind them, the Government can then say that they have examined the space research programme and have decided that it is too costly and that they are sorry but that they will not go on with it. We should have the answer today to the question of whether we are to go on with the space research programme or not.
Perhaps it will salve the consciences of right hon. Gentlemen opposite if it is appreciated that such a programme could have military advantages. If they go on and finish the development of Blue Streak, one of the things that will happen is that they will keep in the development race of rockets for military purposes. Again, we will be able to send up reconnaissance satellites. The Hawker-Siddeley firm is now working on a programme for reconnaissance satellites which will be able to circle the earth perpetually televising down to earth pictures of everything that they see. It will be possible to instruct those satellites from the ground to send down detailed photographs of any particular spot which one might want to study in detail.
That is a programme which will help to solve the problem of international inspection. Hawker-Siddeley is not being financed by the Government in this programme, but is making an independent private attempt to develop something in that field for Britain. But the firm will be unable to send up such a satellite under British auspices unless Blue Streak is developed. There will then be only the Americans and the

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Russians able to undertake such a project.
If we continue with the Blue Streak, we will gain immeasurably in many ways. It will be a comparatively small investment for the next fifty or hundred years. Every time a rocket is made, it requires a reliable guidance system and that system has to become smaller and smaller. These guidance systems can be adapted for use in civilian aircraft and could be used by British European Airways aircraft or by B.O.A.C. aircraft and could help to save crews, because these instruments can be made to occupy very little space. They can obviate all danger from landing in fog and do 101 other things which this country is eminently fitted to do and which will be done by the Americans and the Russians if the Government persist in their decision not to develop Blue Streak. All these rocket processes involve radical improvements in things like transistors and their reliabilities, matters which are of tremendous importance in other branches of industry. All that will be thrown away by the Government's decision.
I do not want to weary the House with the many different things which can be done with projects arising from the development of a space research programme which can continue only if we go on with the development of the Blue Streak. There are other things like potted electronic circuits which now have an application in industry generally and which are one of the reasons why the British electronics industry is well ahead of the rest of the world and why we are exporting electronic computers to America. Without the stimulus from a programme of this kind we will not be able to get an absolutely reliable and foolproof aircraft control system which can be produced from the sort of machinery which goes into these rockets.
One of the most important commercial results of the development of Blue Streak would be the use of our own communication satellites. The Americans are working on that project. Pye in this country is working on the design of such a satellite for Britain, but the firm will not be able to send it up without Blue Streak. A series of communication satellites posted at strategic points around the
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earth's surface could give instantaneous, reliable and uninterrupted telephone services to all parts of the world and could also instantly relay all the world over radio and television programmes—which might be a misfortune but which is bound to happen at some time. That obviously has tremendously important commercial possibilities.
If we do not develop these things and if we do not go on with Blue Streak, the Americans and the Russians will. It may be that they will let us have the information ten years after they have developed these things commercially. We have just been told how important it is for us, with so many of us living in a tiny island, that we should be abreast of scientific and technological development. It is only by the development of our wits and ingenuity that we can keep up with major technological advances such as this. Otherwise, we shall be out of the running in twenty or thirty years and unable to compete with other major exporting nations.
Mr. Arthur Holt: Is the hon. Gentleman maintaining that we cannot have a plough unless we have made a sword?
Mr. Wyatt: Yes, in a way I am. That is a good example. Civil aviation would never have been brought to the pitch it has reached if it had not been for the last two world wars. That is most unfortunate, but it is a fact. Human beings being what they axe, there is nothing we can do about it in this House, but there is no greater impetus than when there is some military advantage to be gained from a programme. That is more effective than simply leaving it to a Minister for Science, whose sole equipment is one office and two typists. It may be unfortunate, but if we do not go on with these things and derive the military advantage from the development of Blue Streak, without using it as a missile necessarily—
Mr. Ellis Smith: It depends on one's motives.
Mr. Wyatt: Mine are to secure for this country an ever-growing standard of living and an ever-growing advantage from its brains, its wit and its ingenuity and to see that the hon. Member's children are not left stranded on the beach with nothing to provide for them

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because their export sales have dropped off. The two subjects are wrapped together and one cannot divorce one section of life from another. I am afraid that that is just how it goes, and if we do not go on with the military development of Blue Streak in some shape or form we will lose in the race for all these technological advantages.
Mr. Ellis Smith: It happens that I have been associated with the very men about whom my hon. Friend is talking. I was closely connected with those who first perfected the methods of harnessing the atom. It became a question of whether we should use it for peace or for war. I accept much of what nay hon. Friend is saying, but could not these things be used for peaceful purposes?
Mr. Wyatt: I hope that my hon. Friend has not missed the point of what I have been saying. I was saying that something could be salvaged from the wreck if we went on with the full development of Blue Streak, even if we did not intend to use it for military purposes, but its development is vital to our future as a commercial and industrial nation. I was trying to offer some sort of sop to the Front Bench opposite by saying that there were military advantages in its development, even though the Blue Streak when completed was never used to launch warheads at anybody.
Finally, I ask the Government not to say to the makers of Blue Streak that they have decided to drop the project militarily, but intend to go on with it for civilian space research reasons—and to do so on a shoestring. The moment they do that they will not get a satisfactory completion of Blue Streak. If the Government say to the makers that there is a fixed budget for them and that they can spend only £10 million a year for the next three or four years and that they have to complete Blue Streak on that basis, even though it was originally planned to spend £500 million, the makers might be able to do it, but it is highly likely that a very unsatisfactory job will result and that the project will not be completed.
If the Government are serious about developing Blue Streak for space research they must assure the makers that they will allocate the same budget
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to finishing Blue Streak as would have been given if it had been intended to complete it for military purposes, allowing for any differences which there might be in the objects of the exercises. The Government must be fair. It might cost £60 million or £70 million to finish Blue Streak even if it is never used for military purposes. Or it might cost only £30 or £35 million. But if the Government once say to the makers that they have to complete the project on a fixed and too-low budget, a budget which the makers say is impossible, the makers will be put in an impossible position and the whole project will be a total wreck.
I have spoken for longer than I intended, but that has been because I have been interrupted. This is one of the most important debates ever to take place in the House of Commons. I think that the country has not yet realised the significance of what the Government have done in dropping the Blue Streak programme. As may have been appreciated, I do not altogether agree with the terms of the Motion, but I emphatically agree with that part which asks for a public inquiry, because unless we have a public inquiry into what amounts to the scientific and technological future of this country, we will continue to be given decisions so long after they are made that it will be too late for us to do anything about them. That is not the way for this country to go into the second half of the twentieth century.
7.52 p.m.
Sir Arthur Vere Harvey: Before I begin my speech, I think that I shall be expressing the views of all hon. Members if I welcome back the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), whom we are all glad to see looking so well and fit.
The hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Wyatt) made a speech which was frank and in many ways constructive, and I agree with many of his views. It will not have been a very popular speech with some hon. Members on his own side.
Mr. James Callaghan: It will not have been very popular with the Front Bench opposite.
Sir A. V. Harvey: He said that the dropping of the Blue Streak project was probably the most serious decision of

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the century. I think that that is an overstatement. If one is looking for the most serious decision of the century, I would say that it might be the decision to manufacture the atomic bomb, a decision taken by the then Mr. Attlee and hon. Members opposite and about which we were not told until eighteen months afterwards. We have heard a lot today about candour, but let us cast our minds back to that situation. I have no doubt that the then Prime Minister had very good reasons for not telling the House, but nevertheless Parliament did not know what was going on. I think that we can dismiss that argument.
The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) talked about the history of the 1930s, but he did not mention the history of the 1940s, in which hon. Members opposite played a part. One does not want to make a tit-for-tat argument or say, "You did this and we did that", because in defence these matters are not decided by the Minister, who has no technical knowledge, and who needs advisers.
I have done a quick sum and I remember that the Brabazon project cost £12 million, the Princess Flying Boats at least £10 million, the Swift fighter £40 million and the peanut scheme £35 million, a total of £97 million. There was no question of any public inquiry into any of those projects. Furthermore we had the jet engines handed to Soviet Russia on a plate at a very bad time.
Mr. A. Woodburn: The hon. Member is quite wrong. The technical advisers and Whittle himself said that the Russians could learn nothing from those jet engines which they could not get otherwise or already had. We were authorised by the experts, including those of the Air Ministry, to put those engines on the free list.
Sir A. V. Harvey: I took part in many debates when the right hon. Gentleman was Minister of Supply, and I cannot recall his saying then what he has just said. It is a little late to offer that excuse.
The right hon. Member for Belper made a brilliant speech, but I am confused about his present position in regard to these matters. He said that this debate
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raises the whole question of the independent deterrent. I feel that he is on the way out from his previous stand. We ought to be told about this. In this country, unlike other countries, the Opposition are supposed to play an important part in our affairs. They are the alternative Government. If we had had a more effective Opposition the Government might have been better. We should like to know where they really stand on these matters.
Most hon. Members realise that these technical projects become obsolete even while they are still in the research stage of development. That is the biggest problem now facing us. They are becoming more complicated; they take longer to perfect, and they are becoming ever more costly. Frequently, new discoveries alter the suitability of a particular weapon. That consideration applies to other countries. The United States and Russia have exactly the same problem. We were told that the Government's decision to drop the Blue Streak project was based on the best information available. A former Minister of Supply—my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones)—has told us very frankly how he felt about it, and how Sir Frederick Brundrett, the former Chief Scientific Adviser to the Ministry of Defence, is still a believer in Blue Streak.
When the present Minister of Aviation introduced his Defence White Paper three years ago he showed much courage and foresight in the action he took. It is significant that the Americans are now in the process of doing almost the identical thing. But my right hon. Friend was not sufficiently flexible in the year or two that followed. If, when he had introduced his White Paper, he had said, "We are getting away from the manned weapon deterrent to the static missile. We have to see how it goes. We must see what progress is made, and consider what may supersede it", he would have shown much more flexibility. He has been too rigid in his outlook.
Against that, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence has told us that when he took up his office, in November last year, he was not advised to drop the project. I believe every word he says. The Government are right in not

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giving up the independent deterrent. They are right for different reasons, depending upon the views of different hon. Members. Making full allowance for the courage and brilliance of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in taking the initiative in world negotiations, I am convinced that he could not have carried out many of those negotiations if he had not had the backing of our rearmament plans. The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) said the same thing himself on one occasion. He said that he would not want to go into the conference room naked.
Our trouble is not with Soviet Russia but with the United States of America. I am very pro-American. I like the Americans individually, but they are immature and have a great deal to learn. I may be told that I should not say these things, but I know the Americans and I know that they respect frank talk. They are very jealous of our way of life and of our possessions. Looking back to the troubles at Abadan and our oil refineries there, we remember that the Americans did nothing to help us in that situation—and they now own half those refineries. Their attitude on the question of the Decca navigation aid has been disgraceful. The Americans have gone to great lengths to belittle this great British achievement.
If they would play ball with Britain and allow us to have equal rights, with bases in Turkey, as they have bases there, there would probably be no need for us to stay in Cyprus. But the Americans will not do these things. Their attitude is governed by their endeavour to dominate world trade at our expense. That is my great fear. We must work with the Americans, but they must come into line with some of our desires. I am afraid that their policy may change after the coming Presidential election. America might adopt an isolationist policy then, and where would we be if they did that?
We have not been told how long it would take to deliver Blue Streak if the project were proceeded with.
Mr. Wyatt: Three years.
Sir A. V. Harvey: I have heard that it would be much the same date as is suggested in the case of Skybolt. Could we afford to continue the project? I
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do not want to quote speeches that I have made, but in the Air Estimates debate on 3rd March I said:
"I am now coming to the conclusion that there are doubts about Blue Streak and that the tendency now is to return to the manned bomber as another means of delivering the deterrent…. I am afraid that if we go on as we have been doing, three or four years from now the bill for defence will be approaching £2,000 million a year. Our country cannot afford that."—(OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd March, 1960: Vol. 618, c. 1472.]
It is no good breaking our backs and our economy trying to keep up with the Americans. I would like to see the Government and the Minister of Defence really set about this defence problem and cut out the dead wood. Three or four years ago I was asking questions about H.M.S. "Vanguard", lying in harbour at Gosport, burning oil in order to house a few hundred sailors, as a kind of barrack block. I do not believe that it has been towed away yet, although I understand that it soon will be.
There have been many cases of waste owing to lack of decision and one Department battling with another to get a little more in next year's Estimates, mainly to keep high ranking officers in their jobs and keep up their establishments. That is a matter for my right hon. Friends to grapple with. They must cut out the waste, wherever it may be, in any Department.
We must do right by our allies, provided we can afford it. It may well be that as the technique of these weapons improves the American will care very little about Europe. They will not want bombers in East Anglia, or anywhere in Britain. They will be free from us and able to look after themselves from America—with the possible exception of the early warning system in Yorkshire. Whether or not it is right to abandon the Blue Streak as a military project, I ask my right hon. Friend not to drop it as an instrument for space research. Who are we, today, to say that Britain is not interested or cannot afford it? If we do not continue it now we may never be able to do anything about it in ten, twenty, thirty or forty years' time. We are now told that space weapons are being used for navigation purposes by the Russians and the Americans, and even if it means making sacrifices in other directions we should go on with this project.

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I would ask the House not to underestimate the power of the V-bombers and the weapons they can carry. These aircraft can fly at great heights and at very fast speeds. At the moment they form a deterrent in themselves. The Mark III's—the Vulcans and the Victors—have not yet been delivered. When they are flying we shall be faced with problems of fatigue, and with the question of the number of years for which the bombers will be able to carry Skybolt, if we have it, in the latter part of this decade. I hope that the Government are considering what aircraft will carry Skybolt.
Recently I was talking to one of the most eminent men in the British aircraft industry. He is technically minded and has a good commercial outlook. He has made a great contribution to the industry. He has just returned from the United States, and is very optimistic about Skybolt. He is not a person who bases his optimism upon hearsay or upon his own opinions. He thought there was a reasonable chance of its being delivered in three years. We might then be better off than we would have been if we had gone ahead with Blue Streak.
I would ask my right hon. Friend to make up his mind quickly whether the VC10 or the Super-VC10 will be required as a carrier for Skybolt. If either aircraft is, and we have to spend money on it, let us do so quickly in order to enable Britain to get into the field of the supersonic aircraft on the North Atlantic route. Further, we must not underestimate the capabilities of Thor. It would be of considerable use to us in an emergency.
I am very optimistic about the talks which will take place on disarmament. We must play our part with our allies and maintain our commitments. We cannot expect developments over-night, but I believe that real progress will be made in the immediate years ahead.
I am told that Skybolt is to be adopted by the Strategic Air Command of the United States. That in itself is a recommendation. If the Americans are adopting it for their super and efficient Command, it should be good enough for the Royal Air Force. I should like to know its approximate cost. The Times suggested that the capital cost would
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be £20 million. If this matter is handled well and we use existing equipment for the carrier it might be much cheaper than going on with the Blue Streak project. Many hon. Members have said that our bombers can get off the ground in four minutes. They may be able to do so when one visits an airfield to see a demonstration, but can they go on doing so round the clock, for the whole twenty-four hours? It will be a very costly process, and very expensive in terms of personnel and equipment.
If the Americans want our co-operation they should offer us facilities at bases which they now man. We cannot afford to pay the bill involved in dispersing V-bombers all over the world, but if we are to safeguard these machines they must be dispersed, along with the equipment and men needed to maintain them.
For these reasons, I hope that my right hon. Friend will not be led up the garden path by the admirals and persuaded to order the Polaris. It will take a long time to develop. We are told that the submarine would cost about £40 million. This weapon has a very limited range, and it would be very costly to produce. Further, it would not be all that effective when we had it. I would rather see Britain continue for the moment with its V-bomber force, making the best use it can of a weapon that might enable us to play our part without crippling ourselves financially.
We can go further. We must team up with European countries in these technical matters. My right hon. Friend made some progress in France last week. A few weeks ago I suggested that he do that, but I do not suppose that he read my speech. I suggested that we should get together with the French technical people, and we should also do so with the Commonwealth. People ask where we can go in the Commonwealth. There are good brains in India. Good scientists are being turned out of British and American universities, and they return to India. Also, we must not ignore the contribution that can be made by many smaller countries, and when I say "smaller" I mean smaller in years and not in knowledge.
The Government are doing the right thing, but I plead with my right hon. Friend to be frank with the House and tell us as soon as possible what he

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proposes to do about space research. That will relieve the minds of many people who rely on Blue Streak for a living, and it will encourage improvements in technology which are passed on to many other industries.
The right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) said that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Air did not refer to Skybolt in the Air Estimates to date. I have looked this up, and on 3rd March my right hon. Friend said:
"… we have kept closely in touch with the American design programme for Skybolt in order to ensure that, if need be, it could fit on to our V-bombers."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd March, 1960; Vol. 618, c. 1441.]
He referred to Skybolt and we can see what was in his mind at that time.
The Government have shown great courage in dealing with this matter. It would have been easy to go along hoping that something would come out of it. It is far better to go along when one knows the position than to just drift. I do not accept that it is £100 million down the drain. I think that in a few years' time we shall see that many things will come out of it which will show that the money may have been well spent.
8.11 p.m.
Mr. R. H. S. Crossman: I will detain the House for a few moments only, because, in contrast with the last defence debate, I support everything that has been said from our Front Bench. I congratulate my right hon. Friends and hope that what has been said augers well of better things to come. I underline the tendency of the admirable speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown). He made the case for an inquiry into Blue Streak irrefutably, and all he said was strengthened by what we have heard from the other side.
It started with the Minister. If my right hon. Friend made a good case, the Minister made an even better one when we compare what he said with what was said by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones). He is an ex-Minister who knows what he is talking about. When I heard the version of the story as given by the right hon. Member for Hall Green, I began to feel that all the talk
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about candour and frankness was a little exaggerated, because all sorts of facts that had been covered up by the Front Bench were brought out by him. It reminded me of Julius Ceasar. Here we have the assassins plotting to murder Blue Streak, and here we have Brutus making the funeral oration over the body. Along comes Mark Antony with a speech designed in a polite way to undermine his erstwhile colleagues and saying "I am still loyal to Caesar while you bury him and I keep his cause alive". Blue Streak, in terms of political controversy, will be a very violent ghost for a long time.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Mr. Wyatt). It is a major decision of policy which is being taken, as usual, with virtually no facts being made available to the House. This policy of denying an inquiry is becoming a habit. We asked for an inquiry on Suez. What happened? There was no inquiry, but all the secrets were made available to the ex-Prime Minister who was paid £100,000 to publish his special expurgated version of the case. The Minister of Aviation should be retired from Parliament and be permitted to publish a book for £50,000 giving his version of the secret facts, in answer to the Hall Green version. Then we might have the beginnings of an inquiry. I should have thought that in terms of democracy it was important to recognise the need for this inquiry into the reasons for suddenly breaking off this ten-year project, because the reasons given officially are quite incredible. I just do not believe that the reason is because the Americans are developing a new type of weapon which has nothing to do with missiles at all but with the supersonic bomber.
This argument for giving up Blue Streak half-way through is even more baffling when it is put forward by someone who maintains that he believes in the independent British Nuclear deterrent. Does the Minister believe in an independent British deterrent or in a British contribution to the Western deterrent? In his speech today he made a Freudian slip when he talked about his belief in an "independent Western deterrent". If one merely has a shell and somebody else has the gun, how can it be said that one possesses an independent artillery?

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If the Government have decided to go on making British nuclear warheads and to use American missiles to deliver them, it is sheer hypocrisy to go on pretending that we have an independent British deterrent. What we really have is a British contribution to a Western deterrent.
The case has often been argued for having a European deterrent jointly made by the States of Western Europe, or a joint N.A.T.O. deterrent. But that has not been the Government's case. For the last nine years they have asserted the need for developing an independent British deterrent mainly on the ground given by the hon. and gallant Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey),— that we must be able to stand up to the Americans and be independent of them. "If they get into trouble we must be able to stand on our own feet." Year after year in the White Papers on defence the Government have said that we must not merely contribute to N.A.T.O. but have our exclusive independent British deterrent. We now have a Minister who speaks the truth by a slip of the tongue when he lisps "We want an independent Western deterrent". This, at the end of a speech in which he has denied us the right to an inquiry into what has really happened about Blue Streak.
For a long time many of us have suspected the ability of this country to play a rôle in nuclear warfare. The Minister referred to the £40 million spent on the Swift, "But that is a very small sum" he told us, "if one is in the nuclear club." "If one is dealing with nuclear weapons", we were assured "it is cheap at the price to get out of a dud weapon having spent only £100 million." I am sure the Minister is right. If one is going in for the nuclear arms race, one must be prepared to suffer a £100 million loss, for a miscalculation, a gamble that failed. Only the Powers with tile capacity to sustain such losses should go into the race.
There is something else which the Minister did not tell us before. He admitted we have one extra disadvantage which the Americans do not have. They may have seven, eight, or nine similar projects, and maybe two of them will come off and seven will be duds. Unfortunately, we can afford only one project at a time. In a previous debate, the
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Minister compared our situation with the race track and said that we had to bet on our horse while she was still in the stable. But it is worse than that. We have to bet on our horse before it is born. When it is born it is found to have only three legs, but we have to continue to feed it because it is the only one that we have. We have only one British horse and we are in the Derby stakes. Therefore, we cannot admit that we cannot win. But other people look at our poor little horse and know its quality. "Only the British" they whisper to each other, are still deceiving themselves."
When our one nuclear project turned out to be a dud, we are completely impotent as a nuclear Power until we can borrow something from the Americans. And, then, of course, we cease to be an "independent nuclear Power".
What disturbs me is the way the Government have not taken our demand seriously. We are having this debate and there will be a Division, but the Government never dreamed of allowing an investigation. An ex-Minister can make a speech which, if one reads it carefully, amounts to saying, "You on the Front Bench have been fibbing, here are the real facts." But it does not make any difference because the Government think they can best get away with it if the people do not know the facts. I consider this seriously undermining the democratic process. After all, one of the differences between us and the Communists is supposed to be that we are prepared to have investigations and if a British Government have made a mess we are not afraid to sacrifice a Minister if he is responsible for it.
No one denies the terrible mess we have here. We need not discuss whether it was in 1957, 1958 or 1959 that the murder was committed. What cannot be denied is that some time before this year's defence debate the Government knew that Blue Streak should go. And, further, some time before the election they were becoming extremely suspicious that we could not carry on with a British independent deterrent and that we might have to move over to closer collaboration with the United States. But because they were playing politics, they delayed making their decision until it was overwhelmingly forced on them. And now they deny us an investigation.

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We are indignant about that, and not only from a party point of view. One cannot make much sense of Parliamentary institutions if the Government treat the reasonable demands of Parliament— not the Opposition—for an investigation in this way. I hope that the speech which we are to have from the Minister of Aviation will include a serious attempt to show why in his view there is nothing to investigate.
We know from the Minister's statement that the true reason has not yet been given. After all we know the right hon. Gentleman is not as stupid as that! He has better reasons than have been given for deciding he could not carry on with his "British independent deterrent." Those better reasons should be published. That is why, speaking not only for the Opposition but for the people of the country, we say that it is a scandal and a disgrace that no inquiry should be granted into Blue Streak.
8.25 p.m.
Mr. Rupert Speir: I hesitate to intervene in this very important and remarkable debate and I intend to be brief. I do so only because many of my constituents are employed at the Blue Streak rocket testing station at Spadeadam, on the Northumberland-Cumberland border. About 2,000 people have been employed at this station during the past three years, ranging from the highest class of Rolls-Royce technician to the humblest form of bottle washer.
Whatever one may think or say about the wisdom of having decided to introduce Blue Streak as a military missile, or whatever one may say now about the decision—
Mr. Leslie Hale: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. May I seek your guidance? It is not possible for me to call your attention to the fact that there are not a sufficient number of hon. Members in the Chamber, because there is a sufficient number on this side of the House. But is there any way in which it is possible to call attention to the fact that on the Government benches, during the debate on a Motion of censure, there are only five back bench Members present?
Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Sir William Anstruther-Gray): Order. The hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) has been a Member of the House long enough to know what is and what is not a point of order. That was not a point of order.
Mr. Speir: The hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) has himself not been in the Chamber for very long, and I should like to point out to him that the benches opposite were considerably depleted of Members—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—until the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) rose to make his speech.
As I was saying, when the hon. Member made his bogus point of order, whatever we may think or say about the decision to develop Blue Streak as a missile, or about the decision now to cancel it, I do not think anyone who knows the facts of the situation can do anything but admire the incredible job which has been done at Spadeadam. The work has been done in considerable secrecy and under the most novel and trying conditions, and it has been carried out in a most remarkable fashion. I am glad to have the opportunity of paying a humble tribute to those who, during the last year or two, have self-sacrificingly slaved away to produce this vast new testing station.
Now the future of this rocket engine testing station is in doubt, and the reward for their generous and loyal service is uncertainty and the threat of unemployment. The point I wish to make to the Government is that this threat is made worse because at one and the same time Spadeadam is very remote and isolated and it is also in an area of Northumberland and Cumberland which, in the recent past, has suffered acutely from employment problems. In recent years the whole area has been hit hard by the closing of a number of mines and quarries. Even before the decision to close down on the development of Blue Streak as a military missile the area had been designated as a special area under 'the Local Employment Act.
The situation has been made the more serious by the fact that the area had a long history of acute unemployment during the inter-war years. I am glad to say that conditions have improved considerably since the war. With the

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advent of the Spadeadam testing station it was hoped that prospects would remain favourable for many years to come. Now uncertainty has again been created, old fears have been revived and the effect on the neighbourhood is being felt far and wide. I hope and believe that the worst fears are, in fact, groundless. Although we may accept the Government's decision that Blue Streak should not now be developed as a missile, it does not follow that we should accept the idea that it should be abandoned from the point of view of research or for use for peaceful purposes.
For my part, I do not accept that we were wrong to attempt to develop Blue Streak as a military weapon. Nor do I believe that all the money expended on developing Blue Streak as a military weapon has been wasted. I realise that a vast sum has been spent, but the technical knowledge which has been gained by such firms as Rolls-Royce and de Havilland must be immense, and I believe that it will be of great scientific value to the country.
I must say to the Minister of Defence that what I find somewhat trying is that there should be this long gap, this uncertainty, as to whether, in fact, the Government are to go ahead with the development of Blue Streak for peaceful purposes. I am convinced that we in Britain have all the necessary skill and talent to justify our going ahead with a space research programme, and I should like to suggest to the Government that if the stumbling block to going ahead with the development of Blue Streak for peaceful purposes is the cost of such a programme, then the Government should urgently give consideration to the possibility of having this research programme undertaken as a joint Western European venture.
Recently, I had the honour of going to Norway as a member of a Parliamentary delegation from this House on the invitation of the Norwegian Parliament. While we were in Norway, we had the privilege of visiting their atomic reactor on the Swedish border at Halden. We found there British, Scandinavian, Dutch and other European scientists and physicists, all working together in developing this atomic reactor for peaceful purposes. I believe that no less than 25 per cent. of the cost of developing this Norwegian
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reactor is being paid for by the British taxpayer. If we can work together on atomic power for peaceful purposes, I do not see why we in Western Europe should not work together on space research. I hope that the decision of the Government will be that, either alone or together with our Western European allies, we will decide to go ahead with this great work at Spadeadam.
Whatever decision the Government may come to, I hope that they will bear in mind the desirability of reaching an early decision about the future of Spadeadam, and that they will remember their very great responsibility to those who have gone to that remote part of the country at considerable self-sacrifice to themselves and have slogged away under the most difficult and trying conditions.
8.33 p.m.
Mr. A. J. Irvine: Intervening towards the end of this debate, there are only one or two matters to which I should like to refer. It has seemed to me, since this debate began, that it was of cardinal importance to discover when it was that the Government first began to realise that a missile launched from a static site was vulnerable, and, at the same time, that the launching of a missile from a mobile site was practicable.
I ventured to intervene in the course of the speech of the Minister of Defence to ask for further information as to that, but I am bound to say that I do not think that that crucial item of information has been given sufficiently clearly. It seems to me that the only basis for an effective answer by the Government to the demand for an inquiry would be if they could tell the House perfectly frankly, in some detail and with accuracy, when it was that this vitally important information came to their knowledge.
How long was it before the suspected vulnerability of the immobile site came to be confirmed by their expert advisers? Can they tell the House whether, during that interim period, there was any phasing down of the expenditure on Blue Streak? Can they satisfy the House that when, finally, the suspicions on these matters were confirmed by the experts, they were in a position immediately, and without

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any delay, to put an end to expenditure upon a weapon which had proved an ineffectual weapon in the event? It seems to me that upon these crucial matters there has been a total failure on the part of the Government to answer the demand for an inquiry from this side of the House.
Coming to the larger question of expenditure upon the deterrent, so far as back benchers on this side are concerned, I want to refer to observations that have been made, particularly by my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell). He suggested that the debate has marked a shift or a transformation in the attitude towards defence of the Opposition and of the Labour Party. I want to examine this question and deal, first, with the controversy about unilateral nuclear disarmament. I do not think that it can be properly regarded by us on this side of the House as a controversy possessing ethical or moral content on any noticeable scale. I say that for this reason: unless one is a pacifist, if one advocates the abandonment of the British deterrent one is depending upon and acknowledging one's dependence upon the United States deterrent. That may be right or wrong, but it seems to me to controvert any suggestion that this controversy has any basic moral significance.
The second thing I would say on this point is that this controversy, carried out in the Labour Party and elsewhere with candour and honesty, is not one which has any very significant impact upon foreign policy. In that respect it differs from another controversy which, admittedly, caused great difficulty inside the Labour Party—the issue of German rearmament. That was a difficult question. For my part, I resisted as well as I could the proposal to rearm Germany. The majority of my own party took a different view, and that controversy is now a thing of the past.
There is, however, a distinction between that controversy and this one, in that the present controversy can be discussed while recognising that it is not a matter which has any profound impact upon foreign policy. Again, I would suggest to my colleagues in the Opposition that anyone who is satisfied that the time has come to abandon the British deterrent must have satisfied himself by
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the same token that there is no conceivable chance of Britain ever being placed in a position of danger by virtue of the absence of that deterrent. That is a question which they must have asked themselves and which we must ask. It is a question of great difficulty, and unless one is satisfied about the answer to it one should hesitate before agreeing to the abandonment by us of the deterrent.
Mr. Wigg Mr. Wigg rose—
Mr. Irvine: I have not time to give way now.
I interrupted my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington on this point, and I am glad to see that he has now returned to the Chamber. I put to him a question which he treated with characteristic courtesy, if I may say so. I asked whether he thought that it was unthinkable that there might be a situation in which the United States of America might think that almost anything was better than to invite retaliation with nuclear weapons against themselves, and might, therefore, choose to treat Western Europe and the United Kingdom as expendable.
I asked my right hon. Friend, in this intervention, whether he considered that was a possible hypothesis, and whether, in that context, it might not be desirable and have a bearing and influence upon the development of affairs affecting our security if we possessed a deterrent of our own. That seems to me an important question, and one not entirely easy to answer. Indeed, it is a question on which people may have different opinions.
Nothing I say disparages in the least the significance or importance that I attach to the American alliance, or my reliance upon the United States contribution to Western defence. But, while I say that, I remember, as does every right hon. and hon. Member, that, invaluable allies though the Americans have been, on two occasions in two great world wars they came in at a late stage. When they came in, they were welcomed all right, but they did not come in until a late stage.
For my own part, I find it very difficult entirely to exclude the possibility that Britain might be regarded by them as expendable. There have recently

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been things said in the United States which somewhat encourage that view. I feel that, if there is any risk of that kind, it might be very desirable for us to have our own deterrent. I suggest to the House and to the country, therefore, that no mistake should be made about the speed at which Labour's attitude to defence is being transformed at this time, or in the course of this debate.
Hon. and right hon. Friends of mine who are shifting in the direction in which it is suggested they are moving must surely face—many of them, no doubt, have done so—the logic of their recommendation, namely, the need implied within it for greatly intensifying and extending expenditure upon conventional armaments and also, probably, for National Service. Unless one is a pacifist, if one intends to abandon the deterrent, one will presumably recommend a relatively greater expenditure upon conventional arms and upon manpower.
I suggest that that must be in the minds of my hon. and right hon. Friends who take that view, and that that will be the conclusion to which they must come. All I say is that, if they do come to that conclusion, they must recognise the expense involved both in terms of money and of manpower and they must realise that, at the end of the day, that expenditure may be proved to have been just as misconceived and ineffectual as the expenditure we have seen upon Blue Streak. It is at least possible —I do not think that my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) will challenge this—that, if there is a third world war, it may be found, in the event, to be a total nuclear war in which manpower and conventional forces will have relatively very small significance. If that does prove to be so, then it must undoubtedly follow that any greater expenditure upon conventional weapons and manpower will have been wasted and misspent.
I suggest to the House that there are great difficulties here. It is important that the rate of the alleged transformation of my party's opinion upon defence should not be overestimated. These are very narrow issues indeed, and, when issues are so narrowly balanced, it is
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not appropriate to think in terms of crusades. As I have said, I do not believe that the moral content of the controversy is very important since those who recommend unilateral nuclear disarmament, unless they are pacifists, by that token reveal their entire dependence upon the American deterrent.
Mr. Hale: No.
Mr. Sydney Silverman Mr. Sydney Silverman (Nelson and Colne) rose—
Mr. Irvine: No, I cannot give way. I promised to sit down in a few moments and I wish to keep that promise. [Interruption.] I shall not be put off by the gibes of my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman).
Mr. Silverman: My hon. and learned Friend should not provoke me.
Mr. Irvine: My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne invites me not to provoke him. That is a compliment from him.
Mr. Shinwell: What is a little argument?
Mr. Irvine: I fully believe that my hon. Friend recognises the circumstance, not entirely welcome to him, that there are scores and scores of responsible people inside the Labour Party who are not prepared—
Mr. Hale Mr. Hale rose—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) knows that when another hon. Member is speaking he cannot rise to his feet. Mr. Irvine.
Mr. Hale: I appreciate that, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I was intervening to call the attention of a very old and valued friend to the fact that for once—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order.
Mr. Hale: My hon. and learned Friend has given way to me.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I called the hon. and learned member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. A. J. Irvine) to finish his speech.
Mr. Hale: My hon. and learned Friend sat down and gave way to me. I therefore exercised the acknowledged right

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of hon. Members of accepting my hon. and learned Friend's courtesy with brevity, not taking any notice of the assembly which has just come into the Chamber. My hon. and learned Friend made one or two unhappy remarks, I think, in a desire to be brief. He will know that some of us have taken this view for a very long time—
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Oldham, West must observe the rules of the House. He is not entitled to speak unless he catches the eye of the Chair and is called upon to do so. I call Mr. Irvine.
Mr. Irvine: I gave way to my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) because I understood that he had a constructive contribution to make upon the point that I was putting forward.
I desire now to conclude with the observation that I believe that it would be a great error to think that in the course of this debate, by anything that has been said or by any arguments presented, there has been any significant shift of defence policy—
Mr. S. Silverman: Wait and see.
Mr. Irvine:—on the part of the Opposition. My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne says, "Wait and see." I am perfectly ready to follow that advice with considerable confidence as to what the outcome will be.
8.48 p.m.
Mr. Harold Wilson: This has certainly been an interesting debate, and I think that in the months and, perhaps, years to come we may look back on it and recognise that it has been an historic debate. Yesterday, the Prime Minister, in gibing about the projected length of the debate, said that if we had a full length debate this side of the House would be split wide open on the issues raised by the Motion. The right hon. Gentleman went on to boast that he could unite his own side of the House and challenged us to do the same. Apart from the little friendly tiff of the last couple of minutes, I think that I can say that during this debate our side of the House has been in complete agreement. That certainly cannot be said of the party opposite.
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Let me say to right hon. Members opposite—I wish that the Prime Minister were here—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"] A large proportion of the Cabinet has gone to a dinner tonight. It was they who wanted a short debate. I would say to right hon. Members opposite, when they have composed their differences, that we shall go into the Lobby united and with none of the reservations which afflict some right hon. and hon. Members opposite.
Of the leading speakers opposite, including the representatives of the growing body of back bench Privy Councillors, only one has supported the Government's obstinacy in going on with the Blue Streak missile up to this month. That was the right hon. Gentleman the former Minister of Supply. He attacked the Government for dropping it. We have had no support in effect of the Government's policy. I say this of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones), the former Minister of Supply. The facts which he gave the House tonight, much fuller than anything that we had from the Minister of Defence, reinforced the case so ably put this afternoon by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) for an inquiry into this whole business.
It is very clear—I think that I forecast this yesterday—that the House will have to come back soon to debate the great issues both for defence and foreign policy which are involved in this decision. I propose to deal in the main tonight, following the terms of our Motion, with the unhappy story which culminated in the announcement by the Minister of Defence on 13th April. The main facts have been recounted by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper.
While, of course, missile research goes back a good deal further, this story goes back to about 1957, when we had a new Defence Minister, now the right hon. Gentleman the expensive Minister of Aviation. Really, it goes back to the Prime Minister and to the post-Suez situation, as my right hon. Friend said. Suez, besides being a moral crime and an international blunder, was universally admitted to be about the most inept military operation in the whole of our long history. So the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, who boasted on television, on his appointment, that he

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would make Great Britain great, tried to find a short cut to greatness, and, as he hoped, a cheap short cut to greatness. The means he chose was to sacrifice the whole of our defence resources to keep up with our nuclear neighbours.
That was to be the means and the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Aviation was to be the instrument. We had the H-bomb; the problem was the delivery. The V-bombers would serve until the mid-'sixties and then we should need an independent missile, hence Blue Streak. The then Minister of Defence, the present Minister of Aviation—I think that he was the eighth Minister of Defence that we have had under this Government— told us last year how Blue Streak came to be chosen. These were the words he used:
"Before coming to our decision, I can assure the House that we made a searching examination of this problem with the help of our scientists and military experts and with the full co-operation of those engaged on this work in the United States. … In making the choice of the Blue Streak rocket we considered a wide variety of operational factors—thrust, range, vulnerability, size of warhead, spare-carrying capacity for various future developments and, finally, date of delivery … But in the present state of knowledge"—
this is last year when he was speaking—
"I am confident that our decision to continue with the development of Blue Streak is the right course, and, in fact, that any other course would involve a wholly unprofitable "gamble ".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th February, 1959; Vol. 600, c. 1137–1140.]
That was his phrase—wholly unprofitable gamble. We had the bill this afternoon for avoiding that gamble.
The then Minister of Supply, who addressed us this afternoon—they were all in it up to the neck, the whole lot of them—said in last year's defence debate that Blue Streak was not a duplication of American development. It was a necessary intermediary between the American single-stage missile and the multi-stage missiles they were working on. Blue Streak was he said, essential. He used these words which I think the House should take account of today— this was the then Minister of Supply, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hall Green:
"I do not see how we can lightly turn round to the United States and say, 'No, we have not the talents nor the skills, nor the resources to do this. We must look to you
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to develop something in addition to what you are doing'."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th February, 1959; Vol. 600, c. 1326.]
The right hon. Gentleman said that we could not go cap in hand to the Americans to provide a means of delivery: no, we needed our own independent means of delivery. What he then said that we could not say to the United States is exactly what the Minister of Defence is now saying to the Americans.
The then Minister of Defence went on to refer to the need for "a margin of additional power and payload …" He said:
"The Blue Streak, with its powerful thrust and large capacity, will, we believe, provide this margin, and sited underground it will be very difficult to knock out."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th February, 1959; Vol. 600, c. 1423.]
The then Minister of Supply had no margin at all, whether of thrust or capacity, and he was knocked out himself soon after.
The Minister of Aviation went marching on. Although he was laconic in the House, it was outside the House that he became really lyrical about his pet project. In February, 1959, on the eve of the Prime Minister's visit to Moscow, the right hon. Gentleman held a Press conference, and the whole of the Press were left in no doubt of his enthusiasm. To quote only one of the papers involved, the headline in the Evening News was:
"Blue Streak wins. Go-ahead for 3,000 mile missile. Now Macmillan will talk from strength."
The newspaper went on, obviously quoting the right hon. Gentleman:
"The Blue Streak which can be developed for space exploration … adds up to the fact that when Mr. Macmillan goes to Moscow next week he will be able to talk to the Soviet leaders from a position of impressive strength."
I have a large number of cuttings from different newspapers, and they are all practically identical in their wording. At the same Press conference, to judge from the Press, the right hon. Gentleman made some scathing criticism of Polaris, with which Ministers, or, at any rate, some of them, are now flirting as a possible substitute for Blue Streak. A year ago the Minister of Aviation utterly dismissed Polaris as a possibility.
Mr. Sandys: Then.
Mr. Wilson: What he actually said was that it would be extremely costly Has it been cheapened now by mass production? He said that it was unlikely to remain undetectable. Perhaps Russian powers of detection have deteriorated since a year ago. He said that its movements could be closely watched by an enemy. According to the right hon. Gentleman, all this is presumably no longer true.
However, the newspapers came out with the headline:
"Polaris out. Blue Streak in."
on the basis of what the right hon. Gentleman told us.
That is one of the troubles of having nine Ministers in less than nine years, each of them with a new costly project, scrapping his predecessor's project and launching out on another.
Mr. A. C. Manuel: An expensive bunch.
Mr. Wilson: We opposed the gamble. My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper was very blistering about it year after year, It was clear, certainly to this side of the House and to informed sections of the Press sixteen months ago, that the project should be scrapped. However, the right hon. Gentleman went on with it and was still going on with it this year. In February of this year the Government were still standing firm. On 8th February, the Minister of Aviation accused my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Mr. Wyatt) of harbouring dangerous thoughts when he conceded even the possibility that Blue Streak might be abandoned. The right hon. Gentleman said, on 8th February:
"I know of no intention to discontinue the development of Blue Streak."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th February, 1960; Vol. 617, c. 20.]
All these intricate mergers in the aircraft industry, all the right hon. Gentleman's shotgun weddings between one aircraft firm and another, were based on the assumption that Blue Streak would go on. and on the division of labour between civil and military work in the various firms being integrated.
Now I come to the Defence White Paper of two months ago. This said:
"The development of the British ballistic missile Blue Streak is continuing."
Then, of course, it started to hedge:
"However, it may be decided "—
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and I quote what my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper quoted this afternoon—
"not to rely exclusively on fixed-site missiles as the successor to the medium bomber armed with the stand-off powered bomb. Therefore, the possibilities of mobile launchers, whether aircraft or submarines, for long-range delivery of nuclear warheads are being investigated."
The key word there, if words mean anything, is the word "exclusively", but the Government have entirely changed their policy since the White Paper was debated in the House only a few weeks ago.
The Minister of Defence, the present Minister—No. 9—opening the defence debate gave the House this encouraging message, and perhaps one or two hon. Members actually believed it. Commending the White Paper to the House he said at the very beginning of his speech:
"… the Government's plans for defence are clear, comprehensive and, I believe, give good value for money…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th Feburary, 1960; Vol. 618, c. 846.]
And there are actually some who say that the right hon. Gentleman has no sense of humour.
Just six weeks later, and, of course, about two days after the Press had got the story, the Minister came to the House and pronounced the funeral oration on Blue Streak. What the House and the country have the right to know is why it took sixteen months and £100 million to take a decision which most informed people knew had to be taken as early as January, 1959. The Minister of Defence has not given us the answer today in his lame and limping list of excuses. He did not speak as if he had his heart in the job. The only time that he spoke with any assurance at all was when he was sheltering behind his civil servants— when he was whining at the Box that civil servants had not advised him last September that the scheme should have been dropped. Let me tell him that Lord Crathorne, when he was Sir Thomas Dugdale, did not do that.
Mr. Watkinson: I have a perfect right to give an indication of what my advice is, and I coupled with it a very firm statement that my own judgment—that is the Minister's entire responsibility— led me to exactly the same decision.
Mr. Wilson: The right hon. Gentleman could have had it one way or the other,

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but not both ways, as he tried it this afternoon.
The right hon. Gentleman told us why the scheme was not dealt with earlier. Some cynical people, among whom I am not to be found, might have thought that the reason was the election, that it was a costly fiasco on the eve of a General Election and that it might diminish the enthusiasm of those ageing young Conservatives who went from meeting to meeting shouting "Groundnuts" every time any Labour candidate tried to emphasise to the electorate the need for expanding the development of the underdeveloped areas.
Perhaps it was not the election. In my view, it was not. Frankly, the reason for the refusal to write off Blue Streak when everyone else saw what the position was, the reason for the waste of tens of millions of pounds was one thing only—to save the face of the then Minister, the present Minister of Aviation. This is the most expensive face in history—certainly since that of Helen of Troy launched a thousand ships, and at least they were operational.
This is not just our view. Let me quote the Financial Times, the voice of the City:
"Blue Streak survived as long as it did simply because Mr. Duncan Sandys is an extremely obstinate man. He based his defence policy on the deterrent, and he based the future delivery of the deterrent on Blue Streak. So long as he was Defence Minister he was a jealous patron of the project against all comers and, indeed, against all arguments. Even after he had left the Ministry of Defence his ardent advocacy in Cabinet, backed by muttered threats of resignation, kept Blue Streak alive —though on sufferance only—in this year's Defence White Paper."
There we are—"muttered threats of resignation". The right hon. Gentleman should speak up. Let us be clear. It was not, of course, considerations of cost that caused the project to be dropped. The sudden change was the admission that fixed sites, even holes in the ground, were extremely vulnerable to enemy attack.
I have quoted the Financial Times. Now I will refer to an important article which appeared in The Times last February written by its Defence Correspondent, whom hon. Members on both sides of the House regard with great respect as a defence authority. I apolo-
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gise for having to quote so many newspapers, but Ministers give us so little information in debates that the House is launched on a projected expenditure of £500 million or £600 million on the basis of a dozen lines of explanation in HANSARD. SO we have to rely on what Ministers opposite tell the newspaper correspondents, who produce their stories afterwards.
It was clear from the account in The Times that at the very time when the Minister of Aviation was announcing in February of last year the victory of Blue Streak, the end of Polaris and the rest of it, a high-powered committee had been set up by the Ministry of Defence, under its Permanent Secretary, to decide all these issues, and the right hon. Gentleman was going out on his own, making his announcement and prejudicing its decision. However, the Powell Committee went on meeting and finally produced the decision of 13th April this year, as we understand it.
Before I turn to the finance of this matter, I will examine some of the arguments put forward by the present Minister on 13th April and repeated today. The right hon. Gentleman now admits that my right hon. Friend was right on 13th April when he said that the estimated cost was certainly over £100 million. What has the Minister to say? The Minister says that the cost of completing it would be between £500 million and £600 million. In other words, he says that the project has been stopped when about only one-sixth of the expense has been incurred, so that we have not wasted £100 million, we have saved £400 million or £500 million. You lucky people!
What an argument for defending a policy, a policy which is involving £100 million going down the drain. It can only be compared with the argument of the man who banged his head against a wall for ten minutes and, in answer to queries as to why he was doing it, said that it was because it was so nice when he stopped. Not satisfied with this, the Minister continued:
"If we are to keep the peace for an occasional expenditure of £60 million-odd, it is very cheap."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 1269.]
Yes, but how does the Minister argue that this £60 million or £100 million has

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helped to keep the peace? It has gone on research and testing structures and projectiles, which were not, in any case, due to be operational until 1965, and now never will be. How can he say that this has had any bearing on the maintenance of peace? Of course, if he really believes this, if the abortive expenditure of £100 million has kept the peace, then on his argument he should have gone on and wasted the lot.
The Minister of Defence tells us again that the decision to make Blue Streak was based on the best military and technical and scientific advice. So, incidentally, was the groundnuts scheme—on the advice of Unilever. But the then Minister's chief adviser, Sir Frederick Brundrett, on whom great reliance must have been placed, said recently that the alternatives of airborne or seaborne missiles are still a long time off, and it will be 1970 at the earliest before Britain can have a mobile independent deterrent.
So here we are. In 1957, we were told that we must have rocket delivery of an independent British missile because V-bombers would be going out of business by the mid-1960s. A start was urgent because eight years would be needed. Now, with three of the eight years gone, we are told that there is time to look around. If that is true, why did we have to take this desperate and costly plunge three or more years ago?
Why was it that eight years ago we needed every month to be ready by 1965, but now, in five years, we have plenty of time to look around? The Minister of Defence said today that we have Sky-bolt. Have we? We do not know about that.
This is the trouble. Every new Minister of Defence has a pet project. He finds a goose and tells us in one White Paper, that it is a swan—until we have finished paying for it and then it is a dead duck. Are we, in fact, getting Skybolt? Does it exist? The Minister was only able to tell us that the United States Government would give it full priority. Is that not what the British Government did with Blue Streak? Is this a guarantee?
The Observer of ten days ago carried an interview with a high Pentagon officer. It is worth quoting:
"Pentagon sources are saying that the logic which forced Britain to abandon the Blue Streak missile will compel her to abandon an
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independent deterrent. 'We have reason to think this is what London plans eventually.' a United States Air Force general said.
"He and other senior officers contend that if a fixed-base missile, like the Blue Streak, is too vulnerable to missile attack, the airfields from which the V-bombers would take off are even more vulnerable.
"If the bombers can be destroyed on the ground in a surprise attack it makes little sense to buy the American Skybolt for them. Even with the ballistic missile early-warning station at Flyingdales Moor, Britain would have only a three-minute warning against rockets from Eastern Germany bases 600 miles away.
"'To avoid haying her bombers destroyed on the ground, Britain would have to maintain an airborne alert. And you don't seem to be able to afford that,' the American general said.
"'If the Blue Streak is too expensive, then an airborne alert and the Skybolt are too expensive for you. As a matter of fact, you already are in the position of not having an independent deterrent, and by deterrent I mean the threat that you will hit back if you are hit.
"'Because of distance they may not catch us on the ground, but they could catch you now.'
"'The Skybolt will not change matters much because it will not be ready for six years and, in any case, it is too big for your V-bombers'."
This is a Pentagon general talking. Members opposite will find that Pentagon generals very often have great power with the State Department, and some of the optimistic accounts which we have had today may not be so optimistic when we debate this next time. The Observer article added:
"As for announcing that Britain may acquire the Skybolt, this is considered here as a face-saving step, half-way to abandoning an independent deterrent."
If it is not Skybolt, is it Polaris? Does the Minister of Defence agree with the devastating criticisms made by his right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation at a Press conference a year ago, when he used such phrases as "extremely costly", "unlikely to remain undetectable", "its movement could be closely watched by an enemy", and so on.
Reference has been made to space research. We were all impressed by the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth. The Government must not try to use space research as a way of riding out of this situation. If there is a good case for space research —and we should like to know—the Government should come honestly to the House, make a full statement of

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what is intended and give a full and accurate account of what it is to cost and, for once, let the House of Commons know what it is to be committed to.
The other problem is that of those engaged on this work. I wish to say that all our criticisms of the Government today are no reflection on the technicians, designers and scientists who have done a wonderful job on Blue Streak. They have solved thousands of problems that might have been thought to be insoluble. The complaint and the attack are not on them, but on the Minister for his misdeployment of his valuable scientific resources. Let me remind the Minister that the total spent on civil research in this country is about £60 million a year. We have had £100 million going down the drain on Blue Streak for the past four or five years, with all that that could have meant if it had been properly deployed.
The Minister of Aviation will no doubt announce the new deal which he has fixed up in Germany—the supersonic jet airliner. I hope that he will not try to sidetrack his responsibility for Blue Streak by a thing like that. If he is to announce a programme of joint missile research and production with Western Germany, involving strategic missiles, we on this side of the House will view it with very great anxiety, indeed. As we have shown in the Lobbies, we are already most anxious about the supply of nuclear arms to Western Germany. If there is to be any question of missile production, we shall want to go into the matter very thoroughly indeed.
I turn for a moment to the financial aspects of this problem. Grave criticisms were made by hon. Members apposite, including the noble Lord for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinching-brooke), before and during the Budget debate, about the growth of Government expenditure. I suggest that this is a subject to which they should give their minds. How they vote tonight will, perhaps, be a good test of their sincerity in this matter.
This is a dramatic and expensive illustration of a wider problem, that of Parliamentary control over expenditure on defence. In the sense in which the House understands it, control of public
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expenditure no longer works. Before the war, we could order a battleship and we could know what the cost would be and what we were getting, and there could be an investigation if it cost too much and it could have specific descriptions and was an identifiable animal. Now there can be no accurate estimates and, therefore, no control of expenditure. The whole business is done on a cost-plus-research basis and the contractor himself is the custodian of the public purse. It is difficult for the House, even ex post facto, to find out what has been happening.
If one could imagine the Government doing something so useful as sponsoring a system of cancer research, a wonderful thing to do, as with missiles one could never say for what one was looking and it would all have to be done on a cost-plus basis. That is another reason to add to those given to my right hon. and hon. Friends for demanding an independent inquiry into what has happened to Blue Streak as a guide for the future.
The Government have so far been completely frivolous and irresponsible about this gross waste of public money. The Minister of Defence today said that £500 million was not an excessive economic burden on the country. The Minister of Aviation arrived at London Airport last week with such helpful phrases about £100 million as, "It will all come out in the wash", and "We will be on the side of the angels". There was not one word or suggestion of contrition for the way in which he has been responsible for this monstrous waste of Government money.
What of the Chancellor of the Exchequer? I should have thought that he would have been sitting in on the whole debate. Was he not concerned? We were told that the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) resigned over £50 million. Since then, £100 million has gone down the drain.
We used to hear a lot from hon. Gentlemen opposite about groundnuts, but at least that scheme left some abiding assets of value in East Africa—hospitals, roads, ports, and harbour installations. I remember Lord Crookshank—there is no time for all the quotations from those groundnut debates, but how I would like to make them tonight—reminding the House that the House of Commons was responsible for the waste of £35¾ million,

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which would be chicken feed by the calculation of the Minister of Defence. Lord Crookshank went on to say
"… although we have got a new Minister, it is still the same Government, I am sorry to say, and they still have the same collective responsibility, and they still have the same Prime Minister. …"
He added:
"This House regards as essential and urgent a full inquiry into the present situation and the future prospects. …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th July, 1950; Vol. 477, c. 2160.]
We do not get—[HON. MEMBERS: "Was there an inquiry?"] Yes, there was a full inquiry. We do not get this attitude from the Government when it is a question of social expenditure. We did not get it just before Easter in the censure debate on old-age pensions. We would not get it if it were a question of more money for a hospital. We do not get this idea when it is a question of finding £5 million to get rid of prescription charges on the old-age pensioners and the chronic sick. What has gone down the drain on this scheme would pay for the full restoration of housing subsidies for twenty years.
The trouble is that there is no sense of guilt. The attitude of right hon. Gentlemen opposite is out of keeping with the tradition of the House. I began by saying that the House would want a much wider debate on these issues, because what we have seen today, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper indicated, is the end of the independent nuclear deterrent. From now on, there is no sense in any defence talk about independence. From now on the word will have to be "interdependence".
We have had nine Ministers of Defence and we have spent more than £15,000 million, and yet the whole of our defence policy today is in shreds. Hon. Members opposite, who will be trooping into the Lobby in half an hour, know that as well as we do. Today's debate is a censure on the Minister of Aviation and those who bear joint responsibility with him, but in a wider sense the facts which have been disclosed today reflect most gravely of all on the Prime Minister.
Since the right hon. Gentleman has been Prime Minister the country has spent nearly £5,000 million on so-called defence. When he became Prime
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Minister, he set out to keep up with his nuclear neighbours. Like so many other rather pathetic individuals whose sense of social prestige outruns their purse, he is left in the situation at the end of the day of the man who dare not admit that he cannot afford a television set and who knows that he cannot afford it and who just puts up the aerial instead. That is our situation, because without an independent means of delivery, the independent nuclear deterrent, the right hon. Gentleman's cheap, short cut to national greatness, is an empty illusion.
As the Financial Times said:
"We should leave to General de Gaulle the fatuous search for national prestige through the belated and the technologically inferior production of weapons that belong in the arsenals of powers richer than ourselves."
After the disaster which we have debated today, does the British deterrent, based on Blue Streak, impress our nuclear neighbours any more than France's Sahara bomb impresses us?
I have given reasons, as have my right hon. and hon. Friends, why the Minister of Aviation should make a short speech, apologise and resign—but I am not certain that he should resign alone.
9.23 p.m.
The Minister of Aviation (Mr. Duncan Sandys): The right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) said that this was an important and even an historic debate. We all enjoyed his knockabout speech, but it hardly rose to the level of what he described as an historic occasion. The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) made a more serious contribution to our discussion. He said that he hoped that the House would concentrate its attention on the specific issue of Blue Streak and, with one or two exceptions, that has been the case. I am very glad of that, because I have no wish to evade this issue in any way.
The right hon. Member for Huyton and the right hon. Member for Belper made it quite clear that the Opposition are particularly after my blood today. The right hon. Member for Huyton maintained that I have a personal responsibility for Blue Streak which goes beyond my share of collective responsibility as a member of the Cabinet. I accept that without any question. I suppose that

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I have had more to do with rockets— at both ends—than any other hon. Member. In the war-time Coalition Government I was the Minister responsible for defence against the German V1 and V2 weapons, and since 1951 I have been concerned with missiles at the Ministry of Supply, the Ministry of Defence and now at the Ministry of Aviation. I therefore readily recognise that I am accountable in a special degree for the decisions that have been taken.
That does not worry me, because I am convinced that the decisions that we have taken were right, in the circumstances obtaining when they were taken, all the way through. I am glad that the hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Wyatt) referred to the scientists, because I want to make it quite clear that Blue Streak has not been stopped because of any technical failure. If it had been carried through to completion I am confident that it would have had as fine a performance as any medium-range rocket made in Russia or America. The interruption of a great scientific project is naturally a fearful disappointment to those engaged upon it, as the hon. Member rightly said.
Whatever may be thought of the rights or wrongs of Government policy, I am sure that the whole House will wish to pay tribute to the skill and devotion of the scientists, technicians, engineers and others who have been working on the various aspects of Blue Streak.
Mr. Charles Pannell: There is not much of a cheer.
Mr. Sandys: The hon. Member may say that there are no cheers, but the House owes a tribute to these people.
I would also like to express our thanks to the Australian Government for the immense help they have given us all along. They have been our partners at Woomera and have borne a large share of the cost of establishing the range. We naturally consulted them fully about the Change in the programme; and we greatly appreciate the realistic spirit in which they have accepted the decision to abandon a project upon which so much interest in Australia was centred.
The Opposition seek to censure the Government for their refusal to institute an inquiry. We have refused to accede
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to their request for an inquiry because we consider that they have not shown that there is any need or justification for it, or that it would throw any new light on the problem. But I want to answer fully all the criticisms that have been made. The Government have been criticised for a number of things—for having ever started Blue Streak; for not stopping it sooner; for not buying an American missile from the outset, and for wasting a lot of public money. There is also another group of critics who blame us for starting Blue Streak too late and stopping it too soon. I will try to deal with all those criticisms. I will not shirk any of them.
The most coherent way in which I can do this is by telling the story of Blue Streak chronologically—and I have been closely connected with it all the way through—and explaining to the House why we took the decisions we did at each stage. The story must be viewed against the background of our defence policy as a whole. It is an essential part of that policy that Britain should possess nuclear weapons of her own, and the means of delivering them. That policy was initiated by the Labour Government with the support of the Conservative Opposition. That same policy has been continued by the Conservative Government with the support of the Labour Opposition. The issue, therefore, is not whether we should have nuclear weapons. The issue between us relates solely to the means of delivery.
The right hon. Member for Belper said that it was clearly a mistake ever to start Blue Streak. I will explain to the House why we did. For a long time it had been clear that anti-aircraft guided weapons would become so accurate that at some time in the early 1960s the manned bomber with free-falling bombs would no longer be able to get through. To meet this situation we put in hand the development of a propelled bomb, Blue Steel, which could be released outside heavily defended areas and could fly on to its target at over twice the speed of sound. However, we recognised that by the mid-1960s the defences would probably have caught up with this form of attack and would be able to shoot down the flying bomb also.
We therefore decided that by about 1965 we would have to provide ourselves with a missile which would be

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better able to penetrate anti-aircraft defences. It was clear that the only kind of weapon which would meet this requirement was a ballistic rocket. The Opposition have accepted all along that we shall need a ballistic rocket of one sort or another. I should like to quote a passage from a statement made by the right hon. Member for Belper in an official party political television broadcast on behalf of the Labour Party.
Mr. G. Brown: When?
Mr. Sandys: On 30th March, 1957. I am trying to show that at an early stage the Labour Party was supporting this policy, because the right hon. Gentleman said that we obviously made a mistake in starting Blue Streak.
Mr. Brown: That has already been quoted once today.
Mr. Sandys: I do not know whether this particular passage has been quoted. If it has, it is so good that it is worth repeating. The right hon. Gentleman said:
"The present generation of V-bombers will be our last manned bombers. Thereafter our policy should be to put all our effort into producing missiles, missiles of our own with heads on instead of American ones without heads."
The right hon. Gentleman went on to say:
"If we do that, we will save a lot of money."
Mr. Brown: Does that mention Blue Streak?
Mr. Sandys: That hardly fits in with accusations that, first, we should not have started Blue Streak, and, secondly, that by reason of the fact that we pursued this policy we wasted a lot of money.
We did not take such a nationalistic point of view as the right hon. Gentleman, nor were we quite so sure that we would save money by developing a rocket of our own. Before deciding to develop a British rocket for this rôle we considered whether we could obtain a suitable weapon from America. As Minister of Supply, I went to Washington in June, 1954, to discuss the possibility with the U.S. Secretary of Defence, Mr. Charles Wilson. However, it was made clear to me that it was not the policy of the American Government to supply other countries with ballistic rockets, even without nuclear warheads, at that time. This would, in their opinion, have
334
been contrary to the spirit of the McMahon Act, which, at that time, had not yet been amended.
On the other hand, the Americans agreed to give us full technical assistance in the development of a rocket of our own. As a result, we obtained much important information which was of great assistance in the design of Blue Streak. It will thus be seen, I claim, that far from having gone it alone out of obstinate national pride, we have from the start co-operated with the Americans just as closely as their Government policy and their laws allowed. Even if the Americans had been willing some years ago to sell us rockets we could have made no use of them since we did not then possess the technical knowledge to design warheads suitable for fitting to American weapons. We did not obtain that knowledge until Congress amended the McMahon Act in July, 1958, which enabled nuclear information to be exchanged.
I will show the House that after that no time was wasted. Within two months, in September, 1958, I went again to Washington to re-examine the position in the light of the new legislation. I explained that my object was to find out whether we could obtain a suitable American weapon which we could substitute for Blue Streak and so save money. The American Government were most helpful and gave me particulars of the various missiles they were developing. In the medium-range class there were really only two weapons, one was Thor and the other Polaris. We rejected Thor for two reasons. First it did not possess the full range we needed and secondly, it could not be sited underground.
The Americans emphasised to us that the underwater firing of Polaris raised many complex problems and that we should be most unwise to cancel our own Blue Streak until the feasibility of the Polaris system had been more fully proved. Moreover, they advised us that we would do better to wait for later versions of an improved type. In any case, it was clear that it would be unrealistic to suppose that we could construct the special nuclear submarines required before 1970 which would leave us with a gap of several years in our deterrent. To buy them from

335
America for dollars, even if we could have got them, would have been a very costly operation.
As was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) the Polaris system will undoubtedly be very expensive and we cannot necessarily assume—I confirm what I said before—that the submarine will indefinitely remain undetected. However, we shall continue to watch the progress of Polaris. The point I am making is that Polaris did not offer a solution to the problem of maintaining a British independent nuclear deterrent in the second half of the 1960s.
Mr. G. Brown: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman—
Mr. Sandys: I have very little time, and, if the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will not give way.
I wish to make this clear. In addition to Thor and Polaris the Americans also told me, in the autumn of 1958, in general terms, about a scheme for launching a ballistic rocket from aeroplanes. This was later given the name of Skybolt. At the stage of development which the project had then reached there was clearly no question of basing a change of our defence plans upon it. Accordingly—I am giving the House a chronological account because I believe it to be the best way—on my return from Washington in the autumn of 1958 I advised my colleagues that for the time being we had no alternative but to continue with the development of Blue Streak.
This was announced in the Defence White Paper of 1959. The right hon. Member for Huyton quoted my speech in the debate which followed. I not only said what he quoted, but I also made clear that our decisions ware not immutable. I said:
"We shall … continue to watch the progress of other developments in America …"— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th February, 1959; Vol. 600, c. 1139.]—
showing that this was in our minds all the way through.
I have been accused of sticking stubbornly to Blue Streak regardless of public expense. I think that from the account I have given of my talks in Washington in 1954 and again in 1958 the House will see how wide of the
336
mark that accusation is. I have, in fact, from the very start been consistently trying to substitute an American weapon for Blue Streak so as to save money. For the reasons which I have explained, this has now become feasible for the first time.
The right hon. Member for Belper said that he has known about Skybolt for more than a year, and that we could have adopted it long ago. I probably knew just as much about Skybolt as the right hon. Gentleman, but the fact is that Skybolt was not formally adopted for development as a weapon for the United States Air Force until February of this year, and until the Americans had decided to adopt this weapon for development for their own air force it would have been wholly irresponsible for us to adopt it.
To sum up this part of my argument, I claim that at each stage the decisions that we took were not only right but inevitable, and that any other Government in the same circumstances would have had to do the same. Far from postponing the cancellation of Blue Streak too long, we are stopping it at the first possible opportunity, and even so—
Mr. Brown: This is nonsense.
Mr. Sandys: —it involves an appreciable, though in our view a justifiable, risk.
The right hon. Member for Belper said that the responsibility for the Blue Streak fiasco rests 100 per cent. on the Government. His main criticism of Blue Streak is that it is a fixed site rocket and is not mobile. Of course, it would have been better if we could have developed a mobile weapon ourselves, but my answer to that is that we did not know how. Let us be quite frank; we did not know how. You have to learn to launch rockets from the ground before you can launch them from fast-moving aeroplanes or from submarines.
The Americans themselves have only just reached this stage now, and we are unfortunately a good way behind them. The reason for that is quite simple. The Americans started work on ballistic rockets immediately after the war, whereas we did not start until the early 1950s. This was largely due to the fact that the development of ballistic rockets

337
was entirely ignored and neglected by the Labour Government. In the years after the war, when the Americans and the Russians were pressing ahead, virtually no work was done in Britain on ballistic rockets. If we are behind, the blame rests fairly and squarely on the party opposite.
That is my answer to those who say that we should have stopped Blue Streak sooner. But there are also those who say not only that we ought to have started Blue Streak sooner but that we ought not to cancel it now. In the last eighteen months Skybolt has made important progress, and it is important to say this to the House. It is now being developed in America on high priority for the United States Strategic Air Command.
Mr. G. Brown: Does it exist?
Mr. Sandys: The future of the Strategic Air Command of the United States will depend just as much for its future as the V-bomber force on the development of ballistic rockets which can be air launched. Great importance is, therefore, attached to it.
It should be operational by the time we need it. The right hon. Member for Belper said that there would be strings attached to Skybolt. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister explained at Question Time yesterday, the United States Government have told us that they are willing to supply us with these missiles without any conditions which would limit our freedom to use them in self-defence. [Interruption.] Hon. Members can look at what the Prime Minister said; I shall not repeat it now.
Mr. Shinwell: It was to me that he said it.
Mr. Sandys: I can inform the House that before making our decision we examined the different factors involved —financial, military and scientific. But, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones) showed in his interesting speech today, it was not by any means an easy decision, for the simple reason that the arguments were not all one way, much as hon. Members opposite may be surprised. Nevertheless, after carefully weighing up the various considerations, we reached the conclusion that in all the
338
circumstances it was right to stop the further development of Blue Streak as a weapon now. I readily admit that if money were no object we would doubtless have carried on with the development of Blue Streak as an insurance while we watched the further development of alternative missiles. But money is. of course, a most important consideration.
It has been said that we have wasted large sums of public money on Blue Streak. I deny that absolutely. The fact that one does not carry a weapon through to completion does not mean that the money has been misspent—I am glad that one hon. Member opposite nods in agreement—or that wrong decisions were taken. One has only to study the whole history of defence development. One develops a number of things. Some of them come to fruition and others, if one can see sufficiently well ahead, are cut off before the total money is expended.
Mr. Marcus Lipton: Just like Defence Ministers.
Mr. Sandys: This is a serious debate.
I have explained to the House why we needed a ballistic rocket. I have explained how we tried to buy an American weapon at the outset but were unable to do so and, therefore, had to make our own. I have explained why in the state of our knowledge we could not ourselves develop an air-launched or submarine-launched missile, and I have explained how only now for the first time we have the prospect of obtaining a suitable alternative.
Mr. Brown: Not very convincing.
Mr. Sandys: After hearing the factual account that I have given, I ask the Opposition whether they are still prepared to say that we ought to have stopped Blue Streak sooner. [Hon. Members: "Have the inquiry."] Are hon. Members opposite prepared to go on saying what they have said before, that we ought to have stopped Blue Streak sooner? If so, I ask them to say when they think we should have stopped it, and what they would have put in place of it. I am prepared to give way now if any right hon. Gentleman opposite will rise to say when the Opposition would have stopped Blue Streak.
Mr. G. Brown: It is very clear that the right hon. Gentleman is out of matter and full of time. I will therefore help him. All the questions he is asking are the ones we think should be put to the inquiry for which we hope he will vote at the end of the debate.
Mr. Sandys: That has exploded the whole idea that hon. and right hon. Members opposite have some prima facie case against the Government. The whole tenor of their speeches has been that we have wasted money by not stopping Blue Streak sooner. I have asked them when we ought to have stopped it, and they cannot say.
There are some who regard it as monstrously extravagant to contemplate spending £500 million on rockets. It is, of course, a lot of money. In order to see things in perspective, we must remember that Blue Streak was designed to succeed the V-bomber force as our nuclear weapon carrier and, as has been said during the debate, if we had not developed Blue Streak—[Hon. Members: "Where is it?"]—we should have had to develop a new generation of bombers. For the purpose of comparison, as my right hon. Friend pointed out, the development and production of our V-bomber force, with its airfields and other equipment, would have cost all of £500 million, and, of course, its running expenses—
Mr. Paget: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. May one move, "That the Question be now put"?
Mr. Speaker: It may be moved, but the Motion will not be accepted.
Mr. Paget: I am only trying to help.
Mr. Sandys: The Opposition have moved a Motion of censure and they have made it clear that their attack is directed on a particular Minister. It is reasonable that they should allow him to state his case.
The hon. Member for Bosworth urged the importance of space research. I am dealing now with the point made by the right hon. Member for Huyton when he asked us not to use space research as an excuse for the expenditure on Blue Streak. We have no intention of doing so. The Government consider that the expenditure incurred on Blue Streak can be fully justified on military and
340
defence grounds alone. If, on the other hand, it is decided that Blue Streak is to be used as a satellite launcher for a space research programme, for which it is eminently suited, the greater part of the work done will be of direct value.
We are at present examining with the firms concerned the costs and implications of such a project. I cannot yet say what the outcome of the study will be. But, in further following up the point made by the right hon. Member for Huyton, I would say that if we decide to go ahead we shall certainly consider inviting other Commonwealth and European countries to participate with us in a joint space programme.
Having regard to the utter unpredictability of the future—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I think that every sensible person will agree about that. No one who is not a fool can pretend to be certain about any of these things. But about one thing I am absolutely certain. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton that our safety depends, first and foremost, upon the strength and unity of the Western alliance. He asked a number of searching questions to which, understandably, he did not offer any answers.
Mr. Julian Snow: Try agriculture.
Mr. Sandys: I should like to add one question of my own. Having regard to the wide-ranging discussion that took place about the nuclear deterrent, I should like to ask this question: are those who advocate the abandonment of the British nuclear deterrent quite sure that we could make an equally useful contribution to the alliance in any other way?
I wish to stress that the Government's decision does not imply any weakening of our intention to maintain an independent British nuclear deterrent. Nor does it imply any change of emphasis in the distribution of our effort between nuclear and conventional forces. The sole purpose of our decision is to make our existing nuclear policy more effective and less expensive. It should enable us to wait a while, before we have to decide what weapon we shall have to adopt if by then, it is still necessary.

341
So long as the world remains divided by fear and mistrust, we must continue to play our part in deterring aggression, but we cannot accept that peace is to be permanently preserved by a precarious balance of nuclear power. We must continue to work unceasingly for complete disarmament—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—since that is the only solution that makes any real sense. If, in the
next few years, we can make good progress towards disarmament, as I personally believe we shall, then, perhaps, we may never need a replacement for Blue Streak.
Hon. Members: Resign.
Question put: —
The House divided: Ayes 225, Noes 305.

Division No. 75.]

AYES

[10.0 p.m.

Abse, Leo

Greenwood, Anthony

Millan, Bruce

Ainsley, William

Grey, Charles

Mitchison, G. R.

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Griffiths, Ravid (Rother Valley)

Monslow, Walter

Awbery, Stan

Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

Moody, A. S.

Bacon, Miss Alice

Grimond, J.

Moyle, Arthur

Baird, John

Gunter, Ray

Neal, Harold

Baxter, William (Stirlingshire, W.)

Hale, Leslie (Oldham, W.)

Oliver, G. H

Beaney, Alan

Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

Oram A. E.

Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

Hamilton, William (West Fife)

Oswald, Thomas

Bence, Cyril (Dunbartonshire, E.)

Hannan, William

Owen, Will

Benn, Hn. A. Wedgwood(Brist'I,S.E.)

Hart, Mrs. Judith

Paget, R. T.

Benson, Sir George

Hayman, F. H.

Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)

Blackburn, F.

Healey, Denis

Pargiter G. A.

Blyton, William

Herbison, Miss Margaret

Parker, John (Dagenham)

Bowen, Roderic (Cardigan)

Hill, J. (Midlothian)

Parkin, B.T. (Paddington N.)

Bowles, Frank

Hilton, A. V.

Paton, John

Boyden, James

Holman, Percy

Pavitt, Laurence

Braddock, Mrs. E. M.

Houghton, Douglas

Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

Brockway, A. Fenner

Howell, Charles A.

Peart, Frederick

Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

Hoy, James H.

Pentland, Norman

Brown, Alan (Tottenham)

Hughes Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Plummer, Sir Leslie

Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

Popplewell, Ernest

Brown, Thomas (Ince)

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Prentice, R. E.

Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

Hunter, A. E.

Probert, Arthur

Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

Hynd, H. (Accrington)

Proctor, W. T.

Callaghan, James

Irvine A. J. (Edge Hill)

Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

Carmichael, James

Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

Randall, Harry

Castle, Mr. Barbara

Janner, Barnett

Rankin, John

Chapman, Donald

Jay Rt. Hon. Douglas

Redhead, E. C.

Chetwynd, George

Jeger, George

Reid William

Cliffe, Michael

Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

Rhodes, H.

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

Robens, Rt. Hon. Alfred

Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Cronin, John

Jones, Rt. Hn..A. Creech (Wakefield)

Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, S.)

Crosland, Anthony

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Ross, William

Crossman, R. H. S.

Jones, Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

Royle, Charles (Salford, West)

Cullen, Mrs. Alice

Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

Darling, George

Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

Short, Edward

Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

Jones, T. W. (Merloneth)

Silverman, Julius

Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

Kelley Richard

Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

Davies, Harold (Leek)

Kenyon Clifford

Skeffington, Arthur

Davies, Ifor (Gower)

Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Slater, Mrs. Harriet (Stoke, N.)

Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

Lawson, George

Slater, Joseph (Sedgefield)

de Freitas, Geoffrey

Ledger Ron

Small, William

Delargy, Hugh

Lee, Frederick (Newton)

Smith, Ellis, (Stoke, S.)

Dempsey, dames

Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

Snow, Julian

Diamond, John

Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

Sorensen, R. W.

Dodds, Norman

Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

Soskice Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

Donnelly, Desmond

Le<ob/>, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

Spriggs, Leslie

Driberg, Tom

Lipton, Marcus

Steele, Thomas

Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John

Logan, David

Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

Ede, Rt. Hon. Chuter

Loughlin, Charles

Stonehouse, John

Edelman, Maurice

Mabon, Dr. J, Dickson

Stones, William

Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

Mcinnes, James

Strachey, Rt. Hon. John

Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

McKay, John (Wallsend)

Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Vauxhall)

Edwards, Walter (Stepney)

Mackie, John

Stross,Dr.Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent,C.)

Evans, Albert

McLeavy, Frank

Summerskill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Edith

Fernyhough, E.

MacMillan, Malcolm (Western <ob/>)

Swain, Thomas

Finch, Harold

Mahon, Simon

Swingier, Stephen

Fitch, Alan

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Sylvester, George

Fletcher, Eric

Mallalieu, J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.)

Symonds, J. B.

Forman, J. C.

Manuel, A. C.

Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

Mapp, Charles

Thomas, George (Cardiff, W.)

Ginsburg, David

Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

Thompson, Dr. Alan (Dunfermline)

Gooch, E. G.

Marsh, Richard

Thornton, Ernest

Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. G.

Mellish, R. J.

Thorpe, Jeremy

Gourlay, Harry

Mendelson, J. J.

Timmons, John

Wheeldon, W. E.

Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

White, Mrs. Eirene

Winterbottom, R. E.

Wade, Donald

Whitlock, William

Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

Wainwright, Edwin

Wigg, George

Woof, Robert

Warbey, William

Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

Wyatt, Woodrow

Watkins, Tudor

Willey, Frederick

Yates, Victor (Ladywood)

Weitzman, David

Williams, Rev. LI. (Abertillery)

Zilliacus, K.

Wells, Percy (Faversham)

Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

Wells. William (Walsall, N.)

Willis, E. G. (Edinburgh, E.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Mr. Bowden and Mr. Rogers.

NOES

Agnew, Sir Peter

Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

Jennings, J. C.

Allan, Robert (Paddington, S.)

Eden, John

Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

Allason, James

Elliott, R. W.

Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

Alport, C. J. M.

Emery, Peter

Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

Amory, Rt. Hn. D. Heathcoat (Tiv'tn)

Erroll, F. J.

Jones, Rt. Hn. Aubrey (Hall Green)

Arbuthnot, John

Farey-Jones, F. W.

Joseph, Sir Keith

Ashton, Sir Hubert

Farr, John

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Atkins, Humphrey

Finlay, Graeme

Kerans, Cdr. J. S.

Barber, Anthony

Fisher, Nigel

Kerby, Capt. Henry

Barlow, Sir John

Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

Kerr, Sir Hamilton

Barter, John

Forrest, George

Kimball, Marcus

Batsford, Brian

Foster, John

Kitson, Timothy

Baxter, Sir Beverley (Southgate)

Fraser, Hn. Hugh (Stafford & Stone)

Lancaster, Col. C. G.

Beamish, Col. Tufton

Fraser, lan (Plymouth, Sutton)

Langford-Holt, J.

Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

Freeth, Denzil

Leather, E. H. C

Bell, Ronald (S. Bucks)

Gammans, Lady

Leavey, J. A.

Berkeley, Humphry

Gardner, Edward

Leburn, Gilmour

Bevins, Rt. Hn. Reginald (Toxteth)

George, J. C. (Pollok)

Legge-Bourke, Maj. H.

Bidgood, John C.

Gibson-Watt David

Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. Alan

Biggs-Davison, John

Glover, Sir Douglas

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Bingham, R. M.

Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

Lilley, F. J. P.

Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

Glyn, Col. Richard

Lindsay, Martin

Bishop, F. P.

Godber J. B.

Linstead, Sir Hugh

Black, Sir Cyril

Goodhart, Philip

Litchfield, Capt. John

Bossom, Clive

Goodhew, Victor

Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

Bourne-Arton, A.

Gough, Frederick

Longden, Gilbert

Box, Donald

Gower, Raymond

Loveys, Walter H.

Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. John

Grant, Rt. Hon. William (Woodside)

Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

Boyle, Sir Edward

Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

Braine, Bernard

Green, Alan

Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

Brewis, John

Gresham Cooke, R.

McAdden, Stephen

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col, W. H

Grimston, Sir Robert

MacArthur, Ian

Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

Hall, John (Wycombe)

McLaren, Martin

Brooman-White, R.

Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

McLaughlin, Mrs. Patricia

Browne, Percy (Torrington)

Hare, Rt. Hon. John

Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

Bullard, Denys

Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

McLean, Neil (Inverness)

Bullus, Wing Commander Eric

Harris, Reader (Heston)

MacLeod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)

Burden, F. A.

Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

Butcher, Sir Herbert

Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

McMaster, Stanley R.

Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)

Carr, Compton (Barons Court)

Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

Maginnis, John E.

Cary, Sir Robert

Harvie Anderson, Miss

Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

Channon, H. P. G.

Hay, John

Marlowe, Anthony

Clark, Henry (Antrim, N.)

Head, Rt. Hon. Antony

Marples, Rt. Hon. Ernest

Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

Heath, Rt. Hon. Edward

Marshall, Douglas

Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

Henderson, John (Cathcart)

Marten, Neill

Cleaver, Leonard

Henderson-Stewart, Sir James

Mathew, Robert (Honiton)

Cole, Norman

Hendry, Forbes

Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

Collard, Richard

Hicks Beach Maj. W.

Maudling, Rt. Hon. Reginald

Cooke, Robert

Hiley, Joseph

Mawby, Ray

Cooper, A. E.

Hill, Dr. Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)

Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

Hill, Mrs. Eveline (Wythenshawe)

Mills, Stratton

Cordle, John

Hill, J. E. B. (S. Norfolk)

Montgomery, Fergus

Corfield, F. V.

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Moore Sir Thomas

Costain, A. P.

Hirst, Geoffrey

Morgan, William

Coulson, J. M.

Hobson, John

Morrison, John

Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

Hooking, Philip N

Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

Critchley, Julian

Holland, Philip

Nabarro, Gerald

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.

Hollingworth, John

Neave, Airey

Crowder, F. P.

Hope, Rt. Hon. Lord John

Nicholls, Harmar

Cunningham, Knox

Hopkins, Alan

Nicholson, Sir Godfrey

Curran, Charles

Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hon. Patricia

Noble, Michael

Currle, G. B. H.

Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

Nugent, Sir Richard

Dance, James

Howard, Hon. G. R. (St. lves)

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Deedes, W. F.

Howard, John (Southampton, Test)

Orr-Ewing, C. Ian

de Ferranti, Basil

Hughes-Young, Michael

Osborn, John (Hallam)

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Hurd, Sir Anthony

Osborne, Cyril (Louth)

Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. M.

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Page, A. J. (Harrow West)

Doughty, Charles

Iremonger, T. L.

Page, Graham

Drayson. G. B.

Irvine, Brayant Godman (Rye)

Pannell, Norman (Kirkdale)

du Cann, Edward

Jackson, John

Partridge, E.

Duncan, Sir James

James, David

Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

Duthie, Sir William

Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

344

345

Peel, John

Shaw, M.

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

Shepherd, William

Vane, W. M. F.

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Simon, Sir Jocelyn

Vickers, Miss Joan

Pilkington, Capt. Richard

Skeet, T. H. H.

Vosper, Rt. Hon. Dennis

Pitman, I. J.

Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'rd & Chiswick)

wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

Pitt, Miss Edith

Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hon. Derek

Pott, Percival

Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

Wall, Patrick

Powell, J. Enoch

Spearman, Sir Alexander

Ward Rt. Hon. George (Worcester)

Price, H. A. (Lewisham, W.)

Speir, Rupert

Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

Prior, J. M. L.

Stanley, Hon. Richard

Watts, James

Prior-Palmer, Brig. Sir Otho

Stevens, Geoffrey

Webster, David

Profumo, Rt. Hon. John

Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

Proudfoot, Wilfred

Stodart, J. A.

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Ramsden, James

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

Whitelaw, William

Rawlinson, Peter

Studholme, Sir Henry

Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)

Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

Rees, Hugh

Sumner, Donald (Orpington)

Wills- Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Talbot, John E.

Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

Renton, David

Tapsell, Peter

Wise, A. R.

Ridley, Hon. Nicholas

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

Rippon, Geoffrey

Temple, John M.

Wood, Rt. Hon. Richard

Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

Woodhouse, C. M.

Robertson, Sir David

Thomas, Peter (Conway)

Woodnutt, Mark

Robson Brown, Sir William

Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

Woollam, John

Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

Thompson, Richard (Croydon, S.)

Worsley, Marcus

Royle, Anthony (Richmond, Surrey)

Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

Yates, William (The Wrekin)

Sandys, Rt. Hon. Duncan

Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

Scott-Hopkins, James

Turner, Colin

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Seymour, Leslie

Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

Mr. Legh and Mr. Edward Wakefield.

Sharpies, Richard

Tweedsmuir, Lady

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings on Government Business exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[The Prime Minister.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY
  INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT ASSOCIATION BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.

  BROMLEY COLLEGE AND OTHER CHARITIES BILL
  Read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Sir H. Linstead.]
  Committee upon Wednesday next.

  CHIPPING SODBURY TOWN TRUST BILL
  Read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Sir H. Linstead.]
  Committee upon Wednesday next.

  UNITED CHARITIES OF NATHANIEL WATERHOUSE AND OTHER CHARITIES (HALIFAX) BILL
  Read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Sir H. Linstead.]
  Committee upon Wednesday next.

  SOUTH WALES (PLASTIC SURGERY UNIT)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Brooman-White.]
  10.14 p.m.
  Mr. George Thomas: The need for a second plastic surgery unit in South Wales is at once pressing and urgent. I have resorted to the extreme measure of this Adjournment debate because I was shocked by the Minister's bland reply to my Question on this hospital a few weeks ago. I was told that the question of a second plastic surgery hospital unit in South Wales is a matter for long-term planning. I maintain that such a reply is totally unsatisfactory to the Welsh people. It reveals an unbelievable complacency which I am quite sure the hon. Lady the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health would not like to maintain tonight.
  The facts are these. There is only one plastic surgery hospital in-patient unit in South Wales to cater for all the teeming masses of our people. From Milford Haven in Pembrokeshire to Aberystwyth in Cardiganshire, people suffering from burns or who need plastic surgery hospital treatment have to be conveyed to Chepstow in Monmouthshire.
  This is a hospital with 129 beds only, and they are in a hotch-potch of old buildings. I want to pay a sincere tribute to the dedicated service of Mr. Lewis, the consultant plastic surgeon, and the entire staff at Chepstow Hospital. I want to thank them for the splendid work they have done and are doing for the people of the Principality. Wales owes a deep debt of gratitude to these people, a debt which we can never properly repay but of which we are ever mindful.
  The St. Lawrence Hospital is quite unable to cope with the needs of our people. I understand that the consultant has outpatient days in Swansea and in Cardiff and it may be in other places, but all surgical cases have to be conveyed to Chepstow. A crazier siting for a plastic surgery hospital for South Wales would be bard to think up.
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  A constituent of mine was telling me at the weekend that he had been in a very serious motor accident and had been taken to Cardiff Royal Infirmary for an emergency operation. Then he had to be conveyed for another emergency operation to Chepstow 20 miles away, but owing to his condition and the fact that those conveying him had to keep on stopping to attend to him it took six hours to get this seriously ill man from Cardiff to Chepstow. He was subsequently in the hospital for over four years.
  Two or three years ago when miners in Trehafod in the Rhondda Valley suffered severe burns from an underground explosion, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda, East (Mr. G. Elfed Davies) can well recall, they were taken to the Chepstow Hospital. The miners' union laid on a special bus to take their families and visitors to Chepstow. There is no bus today. People in that valley have to start at 10 o'clock in the morning and they do not return home until 8 o'clock at night. How they manage from West Wales, from the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. I. Davies) or, the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Watkins), both of whom I see in their places, quite defeats me. It is bound to mean great cost in time and money, and for many patients it is bound to mean fewer visits from their families and friends.
  It is an elementary fact that visiting plays an important part in maintaining the morale of patients. I know that those hon. Members in the House who are doctors will agree with this layman's generalisation, and because visiting plays an important part in the cure of sick people I remind the House that the Welsh are as clannish as any and the family tie is as strong in the Principality as in any part of the world. It is indefensible to make it so difficult for families to visit their loved ones who are seriously ill. Most burns patients are very ill and relatives often have to stand by. It is difficult to stand by when a member of the family is dangerously ill but is 60 miles or more away from home.
  Tell me that this is a matter for long-term planning and I suggest that it is an insult to the people of Wales to say that there is no urgency about a problem

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  of this sort. According to the last Report of the Welsh Regional Hospital Board, there is a waiting list of no. fewer than 1,070 plastic surgery cases seeking admission to St. Lawrence Hospital. There are another 95 dental plastic surgery cases. Because priority, quite understandably, is given to cases of burns and cancer, other cases have much longer to wait.
  The delay for women patients is, I understand, rather low—six months to a year, but for men in South Wales the delay is five years. That is five years to brood over their disfigurement. The psychological effect of this delay cannot be measured. Because of the highly industrialised nature of South Wales this queue will get longer, not shorter. Our basic industries, coal, steel, and the transport of oil, are all industries that lead to a steady stream of cases needing plastic surgery.
  What of our children? No fewer than 401 children in South Wales are awaiting admission for plastic surgery. These are cases of cleft palate, skin lesions, and hare lip. The waiting period is two years for children. Parents who are worried and depressed by their children's deformities find two years an eternity.
  I am astonished that the Welsh Regional Hospital Board should advise the Minister—if it is the Board which has advised him—that there is no urgency about this problem, when children are waiting for three years for hare lips and cleft palates to be adjusted and men are waiting five years for plastic surgery. This is a black spot in the Health Service. We must speed up admissions and that can only be done in two ways.
  We need more hospital beds, which means more hospitals. We need more consultant plastic surgeons. Dr. Duncan Davies, who is the Medical Superintendant of Morriston Hospital, which is in the Swansea area, is one of the foremost advocates of a further plastic surgery hospital for South Wales. I believe I am right in saying that the medical profession is overwhelmingly of the opinion that we need a second plastic surgery hospital in Wales.
  I cannot for the life of me understand why, in the Report of Government activity in Wales, in the health section, there is not even a mention of plastic surgery.
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  This reveals a surprising complacency on the part of the Welsh Regional Hospital Board which, no doubt, has given to the Minister a report to submit to the House.
  I want to know what urgent steps— not long-term—are being taken to increase the number of beds available for plastic surgery in South Wales. Secondly, what steps are being taken to increase the number of consultant plastic surgeons? I am informed that the St. Lawrence Hospital, of which the Welsh people are inordinately proud, has the services of only two consultant plastic surgeons and one consultant dental plastic surgeon. How sadly that contrasts with the East Grinstead plastic surgery unit, which, I am informed, has about the same number of beds as the St. Lawrence Hospital, but where there are not two but six consultant plastic surgeons and five consultant plastic dental surgeons. South Wales has a right to feel that it is not having a fair deal from the Health Service in this matter.
  Thirdly, will the Parliamentary Secretary tell us, as I trust she will, what plans the Minister has for such a hospital in West Wales? I believe that St. Lawrence Hospital should be brought to Cardiff and that there should be a second plastic surgery hospital situated in the Swansea area to deal with West Wales. That is an elementary fact which I would have thought the Ministry would be quick to acknowledge.
  I recently wrote an article on this subject in the Welsh edition of the Empire News and I invited readers who supported my point of view to send me a card saying so. I have been overwhelmed with a deluge of postcards and letters and even petitions, petitions which have had the signatures of every worker in a factory. In a factory in Pontyclun the staff as well as the workers all penned their signatures urging the Ministry of Health to grant urgent consideration to this question.
  This is not a minor issue for Wales. I regard it as the most important question which I have had the privilege of raising in an Adjournment debate, and I have had the privilege of initiating many Adjournment debates. This is a matter of life and death and of human suffering. This is a major issue and the Welsh

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  Regional Hospital Board ought to rearrange its priorities.
  I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will announce financial support for a second plastic surgery unit in South Wales and that she will be able to give hope and encouragement to people who immensely value the National Health Service and who do not underestimate the difficulties which face the hon. Lady and her Ministry in the administration of this great social scheme. I am glad to have had the opportunity of raising a matter of the first importance.
  10.29 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Edith Pitt): Before I try to answer the points raised by the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) I should like to fill in a little of the background about the facilities available for plastic surgery. The unit comprises 124 beds, and not 129 as the hon. Member said—although I do not want to quarrel about that—at the St. Lawrence Hospital, Chepstow, which is administered by the Newport and East Monmouthshire Management Committee. For teaching purposes and in association with it is a token unit of eight beds at Llandough Hospital, Penarth, under the control of the Board of Governors of the United Cardiff Hospitals. These two units serve mainly the areas of South and West Wales, and also, in the case of St. Lawrence Hospital, the near-border areas of Hereford and Gloucestershire. The areas, which cannot be precisely delimited, have a population of approximately 2·1 million people. Plastic surgery facilities for patients in North Wales are available at Liverpool, and the occasional patient in mid-East Wales would possibly find it more convenient to travel to Birmingham.
  St. Lawrence Hospital is situated in Chepstow, at the extreme eastern part of Monmouthshire. It is thus on the periphery of the area covered by the Welsh Hospital Board. Newport is 16 miles away; Cardiff is 28 miles away; Swansea is 73 miles away, and Pembrokeshire and Cardiganshire are more than 100 miles distant. It is true, therefore, that the distances involved in some cases are very great.
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  St. Lawrence is a brick-built, hutted hospital—not a hotchpotch, as the hon. Member said. I have not seen it personally, although I have been to Wales, but I have today seen photographs of the hospital and I am satisfied that it is typical of the emergency hospitals erected in wartime and later switched to peacetime use. That is the history of this hospital, because it was erected in the early part of the last war by the Ministry of Works and intended for the treatment of war casualties.
  On completion, in 1942, it was loaned to the War Department and continued throughout the war as a military hospital. In September, 1949, it was taken over by the Welsh Hospital Board and entrusted to the Newport and East Monmouthshire Hospital Management Committee, to form the nucleus—50 beds then—of a plastic surgery unit. Further developments in 1951 and 1954 brought the number of beds to 124, and the range of functions was extended to include a burns unit. There are, in addition, 52 orthopaedic beds.
  On the question of staffing, which the hon. Member referred to as being inadequate, I would point out that the medical and dental staff consists of two consultant plastic surgeons, a consultant anaesthetist, a consultant dental surgeon, a senior hospital medical officer, two senior registrars, two registrars and two senior house officers.
  Before dealing with the specific criticisms made by the hon. Member I should like to make certain general observations. Plastic surgery is highly specialised and demands outstanding skill and experience. Before the war the number of surgeons engaged solely in this specialty was very small. Facilities were extended to meet the needs of war, in the way we all know, and this expansion and the near-miraculous achievements of the plastic surgeon have led to a greatly increased demand for civilian purposes. Today, plastic surgery includes the treatment of a number of congenital defects, such as cleft palate and congenital abnormalities of the face; deformity due to diseases such as lupus, syphilis or cancer; traumatic cases, especially those involving injury to the face, and burns.
  It is not necessary, nor would it be practicable, to provide in this specialty,

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  as in other forms of surgery, a fully developed service in the main towns. There is primary work, especially that associated with the treatment of burns and extensive superficial injuries, which must be undertaken in all hospital centres. Provision for a plastic surgery service is necessary only at a regional centre. The size of such a unit demands much consideration, but it would be uneconomic to provide a unit of less than 50 beds. Ideally, the figure should be more—of 100 or so beds, as it is at Chepstow.
  The hon. Gentleman has pressed for the establishment of a second Welsh plastic surgery unit on three grounds, of which he was kind enough to notify me in advance. Those grounds are, first, that the location of the unit at Chepstow is too distant and inconvenient. Secondly, that the number of beds and the medical establishments are inadequate Thirdly, that waiting periods and the numbers waiting are excessive.
  The hon. Gentleman suggests that a number of tuberculosis sanatoria no longer being required might be used, or at least that one of them could be transformed into a plastic surgery unit. The unit located at Chepstow is admittedly inconvenient, though this was dictated by necessity. The only buildings readily available in 1948 were in the hutted wartime hospital at Chepstow. The skilled medical personnel required were, as it happened, also available at that time owing to the closure of the unit at Gloucester, and not to have made use of the buildings then might well have lost the opportunity for the early setting up of the Welsh unit.
  The present provision of beds assigned to plastic surgery at the St. Lawrence and Llandough Hospitals is 132 the equivalent of 0·064 beds per thousand of the population as against the average for England and Wales as a whole of 0·033 beds per thousand. Even allowing, as is reasonable, for a higher incidence of industrial injury in South Wales, the number of beds proportionately is not only higher in this specialty than the national average but higher also than for any other industrial area in the country.
  I cannot accept the claim that the medical establishment is inadequate and unfair to the medical staff. The unit at
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  East Grinstead is not comparable since the consultants devote a large proportion of their time to other hospitals. The medical establishment at St. Lawrence does not compare unfavourably with other similar centres.
  On waiting, I would say to the hon. Gentleman that every emergency is accepted at once and cases of high priority within two weeks. Of the 1.567 cases admitted in 1959, 651 were classified as emergency admissions. Of these, 247, that is 38 per cent., were attributable to accidents in the home, and 118, that is 18 per cent. to industrial injuries. Those figures emphasise the greater need for safety in the home more even than in industry, and the duty that lies with us all to prevent such unnecessary suffering.
  At 31st December, 1959, there were 1,405 cases recorded as awaiting admission to St. Lawrence, and 591 to Llandough Hospital. Of these, 579 were classified as non-urgent—253 men, 126 women and 210 children. For these nonurgent cases the delay before admission is, on average, six to nine months for women, and between two-and-a-half to three years for men—not five years as the hon. Gentleman suggested.
  I have stressed that urgent cases are dealt with speedily. These figures can, however, be misleading. There are, for instance, cases where the surgeon plans a series of operations and must allow a period of time to elapse between them. Again, there are cases of congenital defect which should not be operated on immediately, and a planned delay of periods up to three years is necessary before undertaking operative treatment. In such cases the patient's name remains on the waiting list. This is a feature common to all hospitals. The hon. Gentleman referred to children waiting for three years for a cleft palate to be dealt with. I am advised that the age of three, on average, is about the right one to deal with that problem because the palate does not form earlier.
  A factor which significantly influences the turnover of cases at St. Lawrence Hospital is that the average duration of stay per case, which is 25 days, is long, and is substantially above the average for England and Wales, which is 16·5 days. On these figures I think a study of bed usage would be interesting and

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  possibly useful. But one reason for this apparent long stay is that the unit is dealing with a large proportion of trauma which elsewhere would be dealt with in a general acute hospital.
  Major schemes of development of the hospital services now under way in South Wales, which include, apart from the new University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff, a surgical unit at Newport, a consultative centre and additional wards at Bridgend, new hospitals at Swansea and Carmarthen, will help to remedy this situation and enable the unit to devote its time to its own particular skills.
  I could, perhaps, say here that Wales is receiving a very good share of the expenditure on hospital service in proportion to its population, and development on the scale which I have just mentioned will inevitably lead to the rationalisation of hospital services in the area.
  One of the possibilities which will be considered when this comes about will be that of bringing the plastic surgery unit nearer to the main weight of population. This, however, is a fairly long-term project, five or more years ahead. I would stress that such a development is long-term and take this opportunity of saying to the staff who are doing such a wonderful job at Chepstow that there is no need for them to be disturbed by any fear of immediate changes. Indeed, I hope that the unit will continue to add to its splendid record of work, to which the hon. Gentleman paid tribute.
  Much thought is being given to the future of the former tuberculosis hospitals now redundant. Consideration is being given to their change of use and a number, in fact, are now being used for the accommodation of the chronic sick. This is a cause which the hon. Gentleman has consistently advocated. In Wales, in most cases, neither by reason of location nor because of their construction do these hospitals lend themselves to acute hospital work.
  Let me sum up. There is only one minute in which to do so. The plastic surgery unit at Chepstow does an excellent job as the hon. Gentleman recognises. While its location is admittedly not the best for some areas of the Principality, a service is available for all who need it, and, in fact, the number of beds is higher than in England and Wales
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  as a whole. Only Oxford has a higher proportion of beds. In other words, Wales does better than any other area of England.
  Waiting lists are to be deprecated at all times, but I have shown that for those who need urgent treatment there is no delay. The number of consultant plastic surgeons is adequate for the present service and compares favourably with other areas. With the very considerable developments which are under way or planned for the hospital service in Wales it will be possible, and it is the intention of the Regional Hospital Board and the Board of Governors to rationalise the service so that specialised services may be more readily available and the facilities for plastic surgery form part of the consideration now being given.
  Mr. James Callaghan: I am sorry that the hon. Lady has not explained why it is not possible to relocate this hospital. Why must we wait for such a long period before it can be brought nearer the centres of population which need its services? This is the urgent point to which my hon. Friend directed this very valuable Adjournment debate. Could we have an answer to that?
  Miss Pitt: The hospital is available and it is providing a service for the whole of Southern Wales. Nobody goes without accommodation.
  Mr. Callaghan: It is in the wrong place.
  Miss Pitt: That I have admitted.
  Mr. Callaghan: Bring it nearer.
  Miss Pitt: I have said that, as part of the long-term planning, consideration will be given to that. The hon. Gentleman surely does not wish to close Chepstow. But so long as a service is available that is the answer for the time being. What I have to say now is that consideration will be given to developments in the service as part of the general planning which is now taking place in the development of the hospital service in Wales.
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at sixteen minutes to Eleven o'clock.

EMPLOYMENT
  Renfrewshire
  Renfrewshire
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Road Transport (Dangerous Substances)
  Road Transport (Dangerous Substances)
UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA
  Disturbances (Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies)
  Disturbances (Citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Committee on Consumer Protection (Report)
  Committee on Consumer Protection (Report)
  Wright, Hamer Textiles, Ltd. (Investigation)
  Wright, Hamer Textiles, Ltd. (Investigation)
ROADS
  Expenditure
  Expenditure
  Accidents (Car Drivers)
  Accidents (Car Drivers)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD MERTHYR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Leicester

SMALL PICTORIAL STAMPS
2.35 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, seeing that the principle of using pictorial stamps has been established by the existing high values, 2s. 6d. to £1, they will obtain good designs for small pictorials incorporating the Sovereign's head, perhaps in two colours or printed in line engraving, with a view to judging the suitability for issue of such stamps for the purpose of bringing greater revenue to the country, and of serving as ambassadors of Great Britain to millions of people abroad.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD CHESHAM): No, my Lords. For reasons which have already been explained, my right honourable friend cannot accept the proposal for small pictorial stamps incorporating the portrait of the Sovereign.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Lord for his Answer. The position is this, is it not: that the Postmaster General condemned small, low-value pictorial stamps without ever having seen officially-made designs for them?
LORD CHESHAM: No, my Lords; that is not quite what the position is. I should have thought it would have been clear by now, in view of the fact that this is the fourteenth occasion on which the noble Viscount has raised this question, in addition to his recent correspondence with my honourable friend the Assistant Postmaster General, that it is a matter of the existing stamp
84
policy, which is to have a basic series for a reign based on the head of the Sovereign as the dominant theme. Therefore it is not a question so much of what the others may look like and whether they need trying, because there would be no point in doing that unless the policy were changed, and there is no intention of changing the policy.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, who invented this policy? Does the noble Lord think it is quite respectful to Parliament merely to reply "No" to a suggestion which is growing more and more interesting as time goes on? Is the noble Lord aware that our postbags are filled with letters from China, Central Europe, America, with beautiful stamps advertising their country? Why should we continue to pursue this out-of-date policy? And who invented it?
LORD CHESHAM: The same people. If the noble Viscount recalls, we invented stamps, and that has been the policy ever since. I know that there are many beautiful stamps produced by other countries, but they are not small pictorial stamps of the same size as our own. We ourselves produce pictorial stamps, as the noble Viscount points out in his Question, but they are double the size and are not, for the reasons we have been into before, acceptable for general use.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, does the noble Lord mean that Rowland Hill invented this policy?
LORD CHESHAM: No, my Lords; but ever since we have had stamps the policy of the Postmaster General has been to use the head of the Sovereign as the dominant feature. I hope, for myself, that it will continue to be so for a very long time.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, is it not a fact that the Postmaster General has condemned these stamps without having seen an officially-made design? Is it not also a fact that the Queen's head can still remain the dominant feature of small pictorial stamps?
LORD CHESHAM: No, it is not a fact that the Postmaster General has condemned these stamps without looking at them, because to condemn something you have to consider using it. Without

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changing the policy he cannot consider using it, and therefore there is no possible point in his looking at these stamps. The question of the dominance of the Queen's head on the trial pictorial stamps that the noble Viscount so ingeniously produced raises a number of troubles and whether it would not raise a certain number of other difficulties depends on opinion—and his is not by any means universally Shared.
THE EARL OF HADDINGTON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord these two questions? Would he not agree that those responsible for the design both of our stamps and of our banknotes show extraordinarily little imagination? Does he not really think that more pictorial stamps would be a great asset to our country, particularly from the tourist point of view? After all, the suggestion that the noble Viscount is making is only in the nature of an experiment to judge of their suitability, and surely that is not very much to ask.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I do not think I should repeat for the third time the point about policy; I do not seem to be getting it over very well. I can only say that so far as the conservatism (with a small "c", I trust my noble friend meant) of the stamps is concerned, it is in fact very well liked in this country. So far as the tourist trade is concerned, we are told that there is evidence of great support. We had a letter from the British Travel and Holidays Association in 1959, and we had one previously in 1956. The noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, and the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, tell us that their postbags are full apparently with support for this question. I can only compliment them, not for the first time, on having their postbags so carefully filled with opinions that apparently back up their own. Other people are not so fortunate in that respect. So far as the tourist industry is concerned, I do not know how much help this would be. It is extremely doubtful whether such
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small stamps would be of help. I understand that the tourist trade is running at a record level and that the British Travel and Holidays Association are much more concerned with the accommodation of tourists when they are here than with getting them here.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: If I may say so, the noble Lord is mistaken in what he thought I said. I never said I had letters supporting these stamps; I should be surprised if I did. I said many countries in the world are advertising themselves with the most beautiful stamps—he must know that—and I said that my postbag frequently contained beautiful stamps from various countries (the United States is one; China is another) which advertise and raise the respect for the country that sends them out.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether there is any possibility, on what he said, of our getting back to the original design of the old Penny Black, which I think is very widely considered to be one of the most beautiful stamps ever made.
LORD CHESHAM: My Lords, I shall certainly be pleased to pass on the words of my noble friend Lord Saltoun. I must apologise to the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, if I misunderstood about his postbag. I was recollecting a previous remark of the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, that his postbag was full of such letters.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: I never said anything about commendation of the stamps.
LORD CHESHAM: I know about the beauty of those other stamps. I have a sheet of them in the back of my folder here. They are all much larger than the standard size of stamp which the noble Viscount is suggesting should be made into pictorials.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to give notice that I shall return to this subject at an early date.

CADAVER EYES FOR CORNEAL GRAFTING
2.42 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the urgent need for cadaver eyes for corneal grafting and of the long waiting list of patients requiring this treatment; and if, in the hope of increasing the number of donors, they will, through the publication of an explanatory leaflet, seek to inform the public of this need.]
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, enquiries made of Hospital Boards last year showed no general shortage, but some—I might say notable—local difficulties. In the view of Her Majesty's Government these needs are best met not so much by general publicity aimed at the future as by improving or extending the existing arrangements by which large neighbouring hospitals supply the corneal grafting centres. My right honourable and learned friend the Minister of Health, is however considering further what practical steps might best be taken to increase supply where necessary.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that at Moorfields, the largest centre for corneal grafting in the country, there is a waiting list of never less than 100 cases, and that these people have to wait as long as eighteen months in unnecessary blindness? All that I am asking for is the kind of publicity that makes people aware of the need for eye banks, and to help people in charge of hospitals which might become donor hospitals to supply this need. I have one such hospital myself.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I was aware of the figures at Moorfields—in fact, that was one of the hospitals to which I was referring. The areas where supplies are not considered adequate are North London, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool. The position in those places has been kept under review and supplying hospitals reminded of the need. It is noticeable that some hospitals are far
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more successful than others—I might mention East Grinstead Hospital, where Mr. Rycroft is the ophthalmic surgeon. They are most successful in sending out teams to neighbouring hospitals in the area and making people conscious of this need. I know that the noble Lord himself will appreciate the great difficulty and delicacy of the situation in going into a hospital and asking patients who are very ill whether they will give their eyes, because it is tantamount, one might think, to suggesting that they are on the point of death.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: My Lords, may I, as a governor of Moorfields Hospital, confirm the situation as it has been outlined by the noble Lord? Furthermore, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that this lack in donor material is entirely due to the restrictive operation of the Corneal Grafting Act, 1952? Would he perhaps ask the Minister whether, in view of the sympathetic attitude of the public towards corneal grafting in general, he would consider giving unfettered effect to that Act?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I think that what the noble Earl may be referring to is the power which is given to hospitals to rely simply on the absence of any known objection, but they have been advised by the Minister that wherever relatives are available their consent should be obtained. I think it is generally felt that were the former method adopted it would cause great public perturbation and would not be popular, but would be considered as being arbitrary. I think that that is what the noble Earl is referring to.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: It is indeed. What I was saying is simply that the present situation is even more embarrassing. What happens now is that a patient dies and that, before his eyes can be used for this excellent purpose, his relations have to be asked—in other words, in the same breath they have to be told that their father, brother or husband has died, and asked, can his eyes be used? That is the position. It is an odious position for any responsible person to have to put to the next of kin.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, naturally I will consider that and pass it on to my right honourable friend, but

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I think it is very much a matter of opinion as between two most difficult attitudes to the case.
LORD STONHAM: Is the noble Lord aware that I personally share the objections which he has just voiced? But would he not suggest to his right honourable friend the Minister, as an alternative, that when people come into hospital and are asked to sign an agreement for post-mortem, the words should be added to the form that they are willing, in the event of their decease and providing their relatives have expressed no objection, for their eyes to be used for therapeutic purposes? That would be a form of consent without giving offence. The point is that the eyes must be excised within six hours of death, and they can virtually be used only if a person is in hospital.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: May I support that?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I am entirely in sympathy with the noble Lord's aims in regard to this matter, as everybody must be. I will certainly put forward his latest proposal to my right honourable friend.
LORD STONHAM: I am most grateful.

FINANCIAL ALLOCATIONS TO REGIONAL HOSPITAL BOARDS
2.48 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why no specific provision has been made in the financial allocations to Regional Hospital Boards for the year 1960–61 for expenditure arising from the increased rate of recruitment of nursing staff, or from proposals for expenditure on cross-infection and sterilisation procedures.]
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, specific provision has been made in the financial allocations to Regional Hospital Boards to enable them to recruit the additional staff needed to complete the introduction of the 88-hour fortnight for nurses. Provision has also been made to cover the cost of additional nurses (and other increased costs) arising from
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the completion of new capital developments. As regards other nurse recruitment and measures to avoid cross-infection and to improve sterilisation procedures, these are items which are intended to be financed out of the sums included in the allocations for general developments and improvements and through savings, including those achieved as the result of improved efficiency.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that after you have fed the people and paid wages and salaries, there is almost no room for manœuvring in a hospital budget? What I am asking is that we should be able to have the salaries to recruit nurses up to approved establishment. Can he say whether that money would be available?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I am not quite sure that I have the point of the supplementary question. In fact, as regards recruitment, the allocations for 1960–61 included in total about £4 million for the purpose of completing implementation of the 88-hour fortnight for nurses. Provision was also made to meet the cost of additional nursing staff required for new hospital units. Recruitment for other purposes, for instance the improvement of services generally, is expected to be met out of the general funds provided.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, that exactly confirms my point. Will the noble Lord now ask his right honourable friend whether additional money will be provided to hospitals in cases where they can recruit up to the approved establishment? On the point a cross-infection, is the noble Lord aware that his right honourable friend the Minister approached all hospitals to take steps with regard to this menace? A great deal has been done but much more cannot be done without the money to do it; therefore it is no use issuing these instructions unless the money is provided to deal with them.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, my right honourable friend is aware of the importance of the avoidance of cross-infection in hospitals, and when making allocations he asked Regional Hospital Boards to give special attention to measures to prevent and control cross-infection when deciding how to apply

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the sums made available to them. The need to devote further sums to this purpose was taken into account by my right honourable friend when fixing the allocations.

COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS' CONFERENCE
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, as the House is aware, the Conference of Commonwealth Prime Ministers is to take place in the next two weeks or so, and, as I am sure the House will understand, it is very desirable that, as Commonwealth Secretary, I should be there with them as often as possible. I will try to be here as often as I can, but I will arrange for my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham, or another of my colleagues, to be present when I cannot be here.
MEXBOROUGH AND SWINTON TRACTION BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
METHODIST CHURCH FUNDS BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

DOCTORS' AND DENTISTS' REMUNERATION
2.53 p.m.
LORD MORAN LORD MORAN rose to draw attention to the Report of the Royal Commission on Doctors' and Dentists' Remuneration 1957–60 (Cmnd. 939); and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, a Member of your Lordships' House sitting on the Opposition Benches has claimed that the question before the House is a political question involving profound issues of social policy; and this on the ground that questions of relative pay breed class distinctions and social jealousies. I am sure your Lordships will forgive me if on this occasion I pitch my note a little lower and am content with rather more humdrum sentiments. Nor shall I attempt for a moment to follow the Royal Commission into their protracted comparison between the earnings of doctors and the earnings of those in supposedly comparable professions.
I myself once engaged in a rather ambitious exercise of this kind, with the help of actuaries and architects, and the results were very disappointing. It is very difficult to compare like with like, and I agree with Professor Jewkes, a member of the Royal Commission who said that comparisons of that kind are no more than "tentative probings amid uncertainties." Your Lordships will know that Her Majesty's Government have already accepted the Report of the Royal Commision as what is called, I believe, a "package deal." It is all or nothing, and therefore it would be a waste of your Lordships' time if I were to discuss the Report in detail. I shall be content to inquire how far economics play a part in the contentment of the medical profession and how far other factors come in.
I want, really, to ask two questions, and then try to find the answers to them. The first is: Why are the consultants, broadly speaking, content; and the second, why are the general practitioners, again broadly speaking, far from content? Dealing first with the consultants, they may perhaps not be content; and if they are not I am as much to blame as anybody, because I have been deeply involved in this matter from the beginning. But if "the 'contents' have it," as I believe most will agree, then I think

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their contentment—and after all, it is contentment, in spite of the fact that they got no real equivalent of the £40 million given by the Danckwerts award to the general practitioners—is due to the fact that one principle has been faithfully followed. That principle is that exceptional good work should receive exceptional financial reward. That principle, if it is followed, will usually result in contentment.
I do not say for a second that we have been successful in following that from the very beginning. For me all this began after the First World War. There was a Royal Commission in 1913 which, after two years, decided that the denizens of what I may call the consultant quarter in London—Harley Street. Wimpole Street and the like—had been so busy in the pursuit of gain that they had rather forsaken the pursuit of knowledge; and the Royal Commission recommended as the only remedy that there should be an academic career in medicine open to those who wanted to devote their lives to teaching and research, and not to engage in private practice. In that way provision was made for a small minority to practise medicine at the highest level; but it was done at the expense of their material prospects. These professors of medicine and surgery, had they engaged in private practice, could have earned four or five times as much.
Now many years have passed, and I, at any rate, have learned a lesson—because it never seemed to me fair that if a man was anxious to practise medicine seriously he should be penalised financially. When 30 years had gone a very large Committee called the Evidence Committee, representing the whole profession, were engaged in drawing up some kind of scheme for the National Health Service Act. That Committee, when they came to consider consultants, decided that they had been engaged in a highly competitive profession and that those who had been successful had been richly rewarded. For example, the first Lord Moynihan's estate was declared at between £300,000 and £400,000. Another physician, Sir Thomas Barlow, left £250,000, and Lord Dawson of Penn left £149,000. And in 1948 it was found that more than 17 per cent. of all surgeons and gynæ-
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cologists were earning incomes of more than £5,000.
I mention these sordid details, my Lords, because I think we must understand the position in which we found ourselves. The Committee saw that in a consulting service all this was going to vanish; and they saw quite clearly that if it did vanish there would be a real danger of a slackening of effort: the consultants might, like taxicabs, just tick over. The Committee passed this problem on to the Spens Committee; and the Spens Committee then set up what are known as the merit awards. There were three grades. It was proposed that the A award should add £2,500 to the basic salary; the B award £1,500; and the C award £500. That was a provocative proposal. It was likely to excite criticism; and it did. After all, my Lords, if I were to look round to those who are listening to me and try to pick a third of your Lordships as people of superior intelligence it might lead to misunderstanding. Yet that is precisely what we in the consulting world were asked to do.
The proposal, however, was passed. At one time I was quite certain that it would not be, because this time the opposition did not come from the consultants, as it did in the case of the economic award. The consultants were largely indifferent: they did not feel that there were any prospects at all of the award system coming in. The British Medical Association were against it; the Chancellor of the Exchequer at that time, Sir Stafford Cripps, was an almost fanatical opponent; and vice-chancellors of universities were also hostile, I suppose in the interests of other faculties. This state of affairs was such that I personally had made up my own mind that there was no prospect that the awards proposal would go through. At that juncture, Mr. Aneurin Bevan, who I may say was one of the most imaginative and able Ministers of the many I have been associated with, came to the rescue, and the awards were saved at the eleventh hour.
It is most interesting to see that after ten years that opposition has vanished. At the time the position was really formidable, not so much because of the opposition but because of the complete indifference of the consultants. In ten years' time that state of affairs has

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altered. The Royal Colleges have always been behind these awards, but now we find the Council and Representative Meeting of the British Medical Association also unanimously in favour. The Treasury, who are not usually enamoured of a project of this kind, have said, There is nothing like this in the public service, but it seems to work, and we hope it will go on." Both the Majority Report and the Minority Report of the Royal Commission said, "These awards are the one imaginative feature in the whole of the Health Act." I think we may say that the almost universal opposition to these awards, when they came in, was converted into practically unanimous support.
There is no doubt that three things combined to change the climate of opinion. The first was that we recognised that these awards could not continue unless they enjoyed the confidence of the majority of the consultants, and that confidence could not be won if people were selected by a Committee sitting in Whitehall. It was absolutely necessary to decentralise the machinery; and that was done. Secondly, we did not attempt—either myself, the Chairman, or the Committee—to say which of two anæsthetists at Truro was the better: nor whether a psychiatrist at Carlisle was as efficient as another psychiatrist. We chose advisers to guide our steps. And, thirdly, in the last ten years, accompanied by Sir Horace Hamilton, representative of the Treasury, we held meetings all over the country, inviting criticism and explaining what we were trying to do.
One would think that if, as happened, the Royal Commission said they were unreservedly in support, not only of the principle but of the method of carrying out these awards, they would have shown that in their Report. But what did they do? They added £500 to the A award and £250 to the B award. That did not really make up for the change in the value of money over ten years. There was something else that was more serious. In the past the number of awards has increased in exact proportion to the number of consultants. If there were three new consultants appointed, there was one new award. Now, in the next three years at any rate, the number
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is to be frozen and fixed. What does that mean? Nine years ago there were 6,356 consultants. In nine years that number became 7,684. That is an increase of 20·9 per cent. If that sort of increase goes on—and it is likely to—for the next nine years there will be 9,200 consultants. But of that 9,200, not 33 per cent., as now, will get awards, but only 28 per cent. To put it differently, while to-day one out of every three gets an award, in future only one out of every four will get one. It seems a curious form of logic first to bless a system and then to ensure that a diminished number will enjoy its benefits.
What of the future of the awards? Your Lordships will know that there are many things in this country that jog along very inefficiently but quite happily. The awards system, however, can never be one of them. After all, the majority, two out of three, have not got awards, and they will not for one moment tolerate a system if they do not think it is efficient. I say this rather feelingly, because I read in the Royal Commission's Report that, looking forward, not necessarily to my demise, but to the time when I cease to be Chairman, they think that my successor might not be so mobile. They say that the Central Committee may know the candidates for A and B awards, but not those for the C awards. Therefore, they say, Let these be given and selected in the region." On that point I would say: if the new Chairman—my successor, when he comes—cannot travel, he should not be the Chairman. For in no other way can he possibly hear criticism and the views of consultants; in no other way can he conceivably win their confidence. I have taken up a lot of your Lordships' time as regards incentive, perhaps because I feel that in the world we are going into an incentive will be necessary in far more fields than medicine. Mr. Khrushchev has said that you cannot build an industrial society without incentives. With that respectable lead I think I may leave that particular part of my subject.
Coming to the question of the general practitioners I have not the slightest doubt that when I say that the general practitioners are far from content somebody will get up in this debate and say

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that I am unnecessarily gloomy. We have only to go round the schools at the present time to discover the really alarming condition with regard to the entry into medicine, which I shall touch on presently. Why are the general practitioners so discontented? I think the answer is that the principle I have extolled, that exceptional work should win an exceptional award, has been abandoned. If the general practitioner wishes to add to his income he must increase his patients more and more, until soon he has a number he cannot possibly look after.
There is almost unanimous agreement in the medical profession that no man can look after 3,500 patients, which is the permitted maximum under the present system. Why do I say that it is impossible? Well, a good doctor—this may surprise your Lordships—is independent of his instruments. If he asks the right questions of the patient, he will soon establish the diagnosis. But to do this he must let the patient talk, and that consumes time; and therefore if he has a large list, he simply does not do it. Moreover, if he gets discouraged, as he may well do, especially if he is not very conscientious, what happens? He bundles his patients into hospital, and so we find many people in hospital who are not there for medical reasons at all. At a recent investigation by the Nuffield Provincial Hospitals Trust into the North Lonsdale Hospital, Barrow-in-Furness, it was found that half the women patients and a quarter of the men patients were there for other than medical reasons. When we think of what this means in finance, there could be a tremendous saving; because they estimated in their previous surveys that if only people who needed medical treatment were in the hospitals, we should need, not 3·1 for every 1,000 of the inhabitants, but 2—a saving of one in three. There would be a tremendous saving of money, which could be used for other things.
I am not saying anything original. At Harvard, they make their medical students go through a three months' course of legal training in order that they might learn not to ask questions which suggest answers, to test the creditability of witnesses, to appraise evidence, and things of that kind. Your Lordships will hardly realise that, when you are
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ill, your safety largely depends on how your doctor can take your history. It sounds simple, but it is one of the most difficult things in the world.
I have met a considerable number of general practitioners with very large lists—3,000 and upwards: men who have those lists simply on the strength of their personality and their skill—who would welcome a new condition of affairs in which they had a diminished number of patients, provided that their income did not fall. Many of these practitioners were looking to the Royal Commission to devise some means whereby a premium could be put on good work. If nothing else is carried to your Lordships in my speech except this, I do wish you to realise that the crying need in medicine at the present time is to put a premium on good work by the general practitioner. That is so important. He must be judged by the quality of his work, not by the quantity.
The Royal Commission have responded to this very great need by putting aside half a million pounds and saying to the practitioners: "You can have this if you can evolve a system". What is going to happen? The general practitioners are not at all in favour of awards—but nor were the consultants, when they started. The majority, I would point out to your Lordships, is not always right. After all, if we had listened to the clamour of the consultants, there would not have been an academic career in medicine at the present time—an incalculable loss. Further, if we had had a vote in 1948, there would have been no awards. Now we are faced with the vast and important problem of devising a scheme to keep the general practitioner on his toes. And what is going to happen? Are we going to be fobbed off with the suggestion that instead of merit awards there should be responsibility awards, so as to avoid all the unpleasantness of deciding who is meritorious and who is not?
My Lords, what does a responsibility award amount to? Responsibility is synonymous with seniority. Suppose you take medical superintendents. There are a vast number of medical superintendents, and if every one of them was given an award there would be no awards for anybody else: they all have the same responsibility, although they differ greatly

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in merit. The British Medical Association have hammered out this question, and I devoted quite a long time with the Royal Commission to pointing out that responsibility was in effect the same as seniority. While those of us who are senior, as I am, would no doubt welcome a financial bonus as a solace to the handicaps of advancing years, it would not pay the community. Moreover, it would be utterly wrong. We must recognise perfectly clearly that we have a very unpopular thing to do if we are going to introduce these awards. We require somebody in the nature of a Sir John Anderson (or perhaps I should say a Lord Waverley) at his best, who can arrive at the answer to a question by first principles and then, having come to his conclusion, refuse to budge an inch, no matter what the opposition. That is what we really need. We do not want a Gallup Poll of the various sections of the profession to see what they are thinking at any moment. This is one man's job. It is a creative act; and, like all creative acts, it has got to happen in the brain of one man.
There is another reason why the general practitioners are not happy. Before the National Health Service Act came in they made modest excursions into specialist fields. One man would do his own surgery; another ophthalmic work; and another diseases of the ear, nose and throat. This added interest to their lives, and was one of the real causes of their efficiency. When the Act came in, all that was taken away. That was a demoralising experience: it took away much of the interest from their life. There is only one remedy, and that is to bring these men back into hospital. That is absolutely essential. Now, I need not tell your Lordships that if you dilute labour, there is bound to be a storm. Those in charge of hospitals would not like this at all, but I see no alternative.
There is another reason why it must be done. This is a little controversial, but I think it can be put quite simply. It is this. There is a "wind of change" (to borrow a phrase from another place) which is blowing over all the practitioners throughout the world. Many people feel that, with the enormous advances, especially the technical advances, in the past two decades in the practice of medicine, nobody but a specialist can possibly
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master them. I think that is quite wrong. If you bring a good practitioner and associate him with a hospital, I think he can do it. However, we must look at it squarely, and must not dodge this issue.
Forty years ago, in Russia, they decided that a general practitioner was an anachronism, and they replaced him by specialists, generally of a rather low grade. In America, which is very specialist-minded, more and more hospitals are closing their doors to anybody who is not a specialist. In England, Dr. Fox, the very able editor of the Lancet, who is a devoted advocate of the family doctor, has recently been in America studying the future of general practice, and he has deliberately decided that the survival of the general practitioner in England—I repeat, his survival—depends upon his being associated with a hospital. And the Nuffield Provincial Hospitals Trust have come to the same conclusion. In other words, we have to bring these men into hospital, for two reasons: to make them contented, and to give them an opportunity to practise medicine at the highest level at which they are capable. It is not going to be easy to do that, but I will not stretch the point any more.
I will go on to say just a word about recruitment. There we have an absolutely alarming situation. A short while ago, if a boy at any of the schools thought of going in for science, his eye was probably on medicine. Now, it is about the last thing that it is on. Now, he wants to be an engineer, a physicist, or a chemist; to be associated with science and industry. If you go to any of these schools—and last year I went to a great number—you find that they have a Science Sixth; that the bright boys are studying physics, chemistry and mathematics, and that the less bright boys are studying physics, chemistry and biology. Science, in some form or other, takes the very pick of these people, and a very large number; and medicine is left with what remains. We have the sad paradox that the boom in science, which is doing so much good in industry, is having catastrophic results on the quality of the entry into medicine.
What is the remedy? At first sight, there does not seem to be one. The Royal Commission recommended that there should be 80 A Plus awards, which would mean that £4,000 was added to the

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basic salary of £3,900. Now that is something. It provides for a significant minority the chance of a career and an income comparable to that in other professions. But I have talked this over with the masters of many schools, and I share the doubt of Professor Jewkes when he says he is doubtful whether the Majority Report would bring an entry into medicine of the quality that we all desire. If that is the right conclusion, it is a very alarming one.
Finally, let me say one word about the Review Body. Three years ago I was so distressed by the harm being done to the relations between medicine and the public by these repeated bickerings and disputes that I went to the Ministry of Health and asked them to set up a Committee which would be comparable to that set up in the Civil Service under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Coleraine. They said to me, "Nobody has suggested this gat all," and on February 18, 1957, I wrote a letter to The Times.
Why is such a Review Body so terribly necessary? I want your Lordships to realise that where medicine is concerned the Government are a monopoly employer. They control the demand, the supply and the pay of doctors—the demand because they control the size of the lists of practitioners and because they lay down the size of hospital establishments; the supply because we cannot get more doctors without increased facilities in medical schools, and that means more money, which comes from the Government. Therefore they have the whole thing completely in their hands. Is it any wonder that the profession is apprehensive of some arbitrary action on the part of the Government? And nothing that has happened in the last ten years has been very reassuring.
The Whitley Council B, which has dealt with disputes between consultants and the profession, can really go on to arbitration and do anything only if both sides agree, but if the Ministry of Health exercise their veto, then nothing happens. It is only fair to say that in many minor matters they do not exercise their veto, but so far as I know in all major issues in the last ten years, like Russia, they have exercised their veto. One of the results is that doctors have lost all faith in the Whitley machinery. Therefore, we require something absolutely new, and I
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implore the Minister to set up deliberately something on the lines of the proposed Review Body. Here is a golden opportunity to win the confidence and faith of the profession. If that is done—and it is idle to pretend that such confidence exists at the present time—a new era will begin in the relations between the profession and the Government, of such a character that the services of the doctors to the community will be twice as fruitful as they have been in the past I beg to move for Papers.
3.25 p.m.
LORD TAYLORhad given Notice of a Motion to call attention to the remuneration and conditions of work of the medical profession; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, at the time when the Labour Government were creating the National Health Service, my noble friend Lord Moran displayed, if one may say so, great skill and statecraft. In a sense, he is one of the Founding Fathers of the Service, for thanks to his advice and leadership the consultants of Britain accepted the plan, not as a bleak necessity but as a challenge and opportunity to give people better specialist care than ever before. The aim was to raise the standards everywhere to those achieved in a few selected spots, and this was done by seeing that conditions were such as to make good work possible throughout the whole of the country. My noble friend Lord Moran saw to it that the consultants were properly remunerated for their co-operation, and, as he says, my right honourable friend Mr. Aneurin Bevan recognised the point and accepted it.
I owe my noble friend a special personal debt which I shall mention later, which shows how he has often stood for progress and against prejudice. His speech to-day, as always, has been lucid and beautifully delivered. I remember that not very long ago he told me how, when he was going to give a lecture as a young man, he lost his notes in a fog and, as a result, has developed his wonderful capacity for speaking without notes, a capacity which we all envy him, because most of us have not got it and without our notes we feel a little naked.
I am afraid that we may differ from him on one or two points, points of substance and importance, but I must say

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that they are fewer than I expected. My noble friend is always open to reasoned criticism, and he has not hesitated upon reasoned criticism of the Royal Commission's Report. I hope that he will listen to what we have to say and that in due course we may be able to present a united front. I do not think that a great deal separates his feelings and those which we shall be expressing.
My Lords, there are few more fascinating things than other people's money, always excepting one's own. Though not paid by the National Health Service, for five-elevenths of my time I am paid at National Health Service consultant rates, and if these go up, my salary goes up. Therefore, I must declare a private interest and partial affection in this debate. I have noticed that your Lordships are not over fond of statistics, but perhaps this dislike can be dissipated to some extent if one converts "the damned dots" into pounds, shillings and pence. I shall try to do that throughout, though I may occasionally have to lapse into percentages. I feel sure that your Lordships are much more in touch with financial reality than Radical Jack, the first Earl of Durham, who was nicknamed "King Jog" by Creevy, because he said that he supposed that £80,000 a year was the sort of income "a man could jog along on". When my noble friend talked about jogging, I thought of that.
It is widely believed that doctors are keen on cash. Chaucer's Doctor of Physic was a good fellow,
"Yet he was rather close as to expenses
And kept the gold he won in pestilences.
For gold in physic is a cordial.
Therefore he loved gold in special."
My noble friend Lord Moran referred to big medical incomes in the shape of money left after death. Probably the biggest fee ever received in medicine was that paid to Doctor Thomas Dimsdale, of Hertford, by Empress Catherine the Great of Russia and her son the Grand Duke Paul when he had to travel to Russia to inoculate them against the smallpox. He got a fee of £10,000, £2,000 for expenses, an annuity of £500 a year for life and a Barony of the Russian Empire. By contrast, I remember when my old chief, Sir Maurice Cassidy, was asked to see the senior executive of a famous London
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newspaper. The chairman of that newspaper expected to get a bill for something like 100 guineas. In fact, he received a bill for three guineas. Sir Maurice Cassidy was a great doctor and a very ethical one, and I think that a great many—in fact, the enormous majority—of consultants would behave as he did.
About 70 years ago there died in London a skilled and popular physician, Sir William Gull, of Guy's Hospital. He left a sum of £344,000, which I suppose to-day would be worth £1 million. One estimates that he must have earned at least £40,000 a year. Yet, when he was a young man, advertisements like this were appearing in the Lancet:
"For disposal, a very snug practice—average receipts for the last five years, more than £200 a year. No other practice within 9 miles. Premium, house, furniture, drugs, the whole available for £800 cash."
That was indeed a snug practice in those days, compared to what the parish doctor used to get. The parish doctor used to get £70 a year, and in the East End, in Bethnal Green, three parish doctors had to look after 75,000 patients. If we compare the lowest and the highest medical income in mid-Victorian days, we find that one was about 400 times the other. And it was not so different in 1906, when Bernard Shaw introduced us to Sir Ralph Bloomfield-Bonington and Cutler Walpole, at the one end, and the poor Dr. Blenkinsop, at the other. Thank goodness things are not what they used to be! To-day, thanks to the National Health Service, if the Royal Commission are to be believed, as I am sure they are, Sir Ralph Bloomfield-Bonington gets £5,300, while Dr. Blenkinsop gets £3,100.
Just before the war my noble friend Lord Simon of Wythenshawe calculated the spread of all salaries in three small democracies—namely Sweden, Denmark and Switzerland—and compared them with England. At the bottom he took a street sweeper and at the top a Judge of the Supreme High Court or a Cabinet Minister. In Sweden, Denmark and Switzerland the top people got six times as much as the bottom people; and in England the top people got 35 times as much as the bottom people—that is, of course, before the operation of tax. It is interesting, in view of what my noble friend Lord Moran said about Russia, to bear in mind that these three small

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democracies are highly industrial and highly efficient States, and it does not appear to be an essential to have enormous cash incentives and enormous discrepancies between the top and bottom in order to get great achievements in industry and elsewhere.
Here we are at the very bedrock of politics. Do we believe that the spread of incomes should get narrower—by stabilisation at the top and increase at the bottom—or do we believe that a wider spread is inherently good and desirable? In considering this we should set aside the fact that the expenses we receive in your Lordships' House put us at the bottom of the scale—the work here is such fun that it is worth while for its own sake. In medicine, the coming of the National Health Service has immensely reduced the spread from the top to the bottom, and this has been for the benefit not only of the patients but of the profession as a whole.
When I was a student, the late Dr. J. L. Birley told us: "It is no good aiming at Harley Street unless you have £20,000 in the bank to see you through until you are 35." That, of course, was not absolutely true, but there was a good deal of truth in it. But to-day every bright student can earn his keep the whole way through to the top; and to-day, in spite of what my noble friend Lord Moran says, an increasing number of students are making general practice a career of choice, because it is so interesting and worth while, even though the rewards are only two-thirds of those of the average consultant. I think this in entirely good and that our policy for the future should be gradually to reduce the gap. I hope that my colleagues in the profession, and especially those represented in the negotiations will think the same. But if we accept the recommendations of the Royal Commission lock, stock and barrel, then the process will have been in some measure reversed, for it is the declared policy of the Commission to increase the spread and enlarge the gap.
I turn now to the Report of the Royal Commission itself. As I shall have to be rather critical of some aspects of their work, it is right, first, to give them due praise for the great deal which they have done well. First the Report itself is short: it is only 158 pages, though it has a valuable Appendix stuck on of an extra 100 pages. Secondly it is clearly
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written, in marked contrast to other official documents which we have recently had to examine. Thirdly, the Commission have caused to be undertaken a piece of social research of immense importance not only to the medical profession but to the other great professions and to social science generally. Fourthly, in their recommendations they hold fast to much that is good about the way doctors are paid. In particular, they accept payment by salary for consultants and payment by capitation fee for general practitioners. Since they are accepted, there is no need to recapitulate the arguments, particularly in favour of the general principle of capitation fee. Fifthly, a large number of the recommendations the Commission make will command general acceptance in principle.
For example, the question of the Standing Review Committee, to which my noble friend Lord Moran referred, is something which I think we should all accept, in principle, and which is a very important decision in the whole question of wage relations and wage structure for the future: and not only for medicine. Secondly, we have higher pay for junior grades in hospital. I think everybody agrees about this, and one perhaps wishes that it could even be higher. Yet for those of us who are fairly senior, the picture has changed very much. When we were young the junior grades in hospital got nothing at all: we got our board and wages and nothing else. It was difficult going, and we could not think about marriage until we were getting on for 30. Now things have changed a great deal, but they should change a little more. A third typical example of something that is entirely good is that the employers' contributions for general practitioners' superannuation should come not out of the central pool of earnings for general practitioners but from the Government. That is what has been happening in the past, and I do not suppose that most general practitioners knew that they were themselves paying the employers' contribution to their superannuation scheme. The Royal Commission quite rightly would stop that. Finally-I only give these as examples, and there are many more recommendations which the Royal Commission make that are good—all their recommendations are clear cut so that

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it is easy to say "Yes" or "No" to each.
Nevertheless, the Report suffers from a number of defects, and these seem to me to come from two main causes. First, there are the terms of reference. These were drawn up in a hurry, in the face of a political crisis. In consequence, they presented the Commission with a wellnigh impossible task. It is not surprising, therefore, that the Commission departed from them from time to time. What is surprising is that their departures were often haphazard and as often accompanied by disclaimers of any intention to do so. The second cause of the defects was that the members knew little about their subject when they started. To-day they have learned a great deal, and indeed they have taught us a great deal as they have gone along. But too many of the problems to which they sought answers had been studied in great detail by experts and validly answered in the course of the past ten years. Yet they quote none of these essential studies, and there is little evidence that they knew they existed.
To take one example. In 1950 the Central Health Service Council of the National Health Service set up a widely representative committee under my noble friend Lord Cohen of Birkenhead to study general practice. This Committee sat for three years and reported in great detail—and I hope that my noble friend Lord Cohen of Birkenhead will be saying something more about this later on—on the way general practitioners were paid. In particular, this Committee examined the whole problem of merit or distinction awards for general practitioners. After most careful study the Cohen Committee unanimously reported against such awards. Nevertheless, the Royal Commission recommended such awards, apparently in complete ignorance of the work of the Cohen Committee, to which I have been unable to find a single reference in the Report.
To take another example, most good general practitioners are in regular partnership in group practice; their incomes are determined by partnership agreements. Over the years it has been found in medicine that the happiest and most efficient partnerships are those where parity of income between partners
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is achieved within seven years. This is well known and, indeed, recommended, I think, by the British Medical Association in its guide for young practitioners. Per contra, the unhappiest and least efficient partnerships are those where a senior partner does little of the work but pockets most of the takings. A good partnership agreement would, of course, largely nullify any individual merit or distinction award, since it would be shared among all the partners in the partnership. This fact the Commission never even noticed! There was available to them, from local executive councils and other sources, a great volume of evidence of partnership agreements. But they refused to see it. Instead, they argued by analogy from partnerships with which they were familiar; that is to say, among solicitors, accountants and others, where, for perfectly understandable and proper business reasons, seniors often get many times the income of junior partners. They were simply ignorant of the fact that in medicine every partner is forced, by the volume and the nature of work done, to take full responsibility from the start, and that junior partners actually do a greater volume of responsible work right from the beginning of their career.
One realises the difficulty which any Government faces in appointing a Royal Commission on pay for a particular section of the community. It may well be that no solicitors or barristers should sit on any body determining legal aid fees. But surely it would be wise to have a barrister or a solicitor sitting as an assessor or technical adviser on the technical aspects. This surely would have been the right answer for the Royal Commission on doctors' and dentists' pay. Had they had with them a consultant, a general practitioner and a National Health Service dentist, they would have avoided what appear to be certain elementary errors of fact. The lesson for the future is clear enough. When decisions about the future composition of the Review Committee are being made, doctors and dentists must sit either on it or with it to advise it, if palpable nonsense is to be avoided.
I return now to the terms of reference of the Royal Commission. A Royal Commission is really a research project. It so happened that there was only one

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professional research worker on this Commission, Professor Jewkes, and he had to write a Minority Report. The success of any research project depends on getting the right terms of reference at the very start. The Royal Commission was asked to find out how the remuneration of doctors and dentists in the National Health Service compared with that of other professions; and, secondly, in the light of this, what their remuneration ought to be. The first part of the jab was difficult, but it was not impossible. It would have been easy, but for one circumstance. The information needed to make a comparison between the doctors' and dentists' incomes and that of other professions is all available in the archives of the Board of Inland Revenue. But the Board refused to give the information required for the different professions, on the ground that it would be a breach of confidence. In view of the terms of the Royal Warrant setting up the Royal Commission, I doubt whether they were entitled to do this. I think they were probably guilty of some frightful sin, because a Royal Commission is given power to call for papers from anybody. Strangely enough, the one place where the Government have decided already to reject the Royal Commission's Report is here; in other words, the Review Committee are not to have access to the information which the Board of Inland Revenue have about the earnings of doctors and dentists and about the earnings of other professions.
In medicine we are well aware of the need for professional secrecy in the individual case, but we do not believe in statistical secrecy of the group. Indeed, without the statistical studies of groups, freely published for all to read, medicine could not advance—and it is the same with the scientific study of remuneration and the science of wage and salary determination, of which this Royal Commission is perhaps the first great example. On this point, I think the Royal Commission was right and the Board of Inland Revenue and the Government were undoubtedly wrong. Fortunately, there was another way of finding out what had to be found out. Your Lordships may remember a Press "rumpus" in 1940–41 about an organisation called the Wartime Social Survey, christened by the Press "Cooper's Snoopers". I was in
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charge of that organisation. We built it as well as we could, and it is now the Government Social Survey. It is an essential part of any Government machine. We built it because we knew that modern Government cannot function without finding out the true social facts of any situation on which it proposes to operate. Efficient social diagnosis must precede social treatment, and the Social Survey is the official instrument for much social diagnosis.
I said just now that I owed a personal debt to my noble friend Lord Moran. At the time when we were afraid that the then Prime Minister, Mr. Winston Churchill, might, in a short trenchant minute, dissolve the Social Survey, Lord Moran agreed to act as Chairman of our Advisory Committee. Under his wise guidance and powerful protection we survived. It was to the Social Survey that the Royal Commission turned for the information it could not get from the Board of Inland Revenue. The full story of how this job was done your Lordships will find in the 100-odd pages of Appendix A. But it was possible only as a result of the cooperation of 30,000 individuals, in eleven different professions and their professional organisations. The Review Committee which the Royal Commission proposes, and which the Government have accepted, will have to repeat this job every two to three years. Now for technical reasons this may prove impossible. Success depends on the willingness of a sufficiently large number of professional people to fill in very detailed questionnaires about their earnings, and a poor response would invalidate the whole process. The Royal Commission fears, and I fear, that the response to regular repetition will be very poor indeed, unless, of course, these other professions want the information for their own purpose. So if the Review Committee is to do its job, the Government may well have to overrule the objections of the Board of Inland Revenue to supplying the necessary statistical information.
The whole matter is well argued in the Royal Commission's Report, in paragraphs 441 to 450. The Royal Commission had been told to find out what were doctors' and dentists' earnings, and compare them with other professions; and with the help of the Social Survey they did this job. The result is

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summarised in the form of a graph on page 31 of the Royal Commission's Report. Graphs are not perhaps the most exciting of things, but this is one of the most important ever prepared, for it shows the cash value which we in Britain place upon eleven great professions. I shall not digress into this fascinating subject, especially because I hope that my noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger will be speaking more about it when she comes to wind up from this side of the House.
It is essential to treat separately the earnings of general practitioners and consultants. We find that a typical general practitioner starts at £1,710 a year at approximately the age of 32. His income then climbs up to a peak of £2,460, at the age of 50, and then it starts to fall. It falls until he is 60, when it reaches £2,160 a year. By contrast, the consultant climbs more or less steadily from the word "go" as soon as he is a consultant, when he starts at £2,100 a year and he climbs to £3,600 at the age of 60. At the start, the gap between the general practitioner and the consultant is £400 a year; at the end it is about £1,400 a year, and a large part of the increase is due to the fall in general practitioner earnings over 50. The dentist shows the same kind of curve as the "G.P.", only it is still more marked. He starts at £2,270 a year at 32; he reaches a peak of £2,540 at 42, and at this very early age his income starts to fall; and he is down to only £1,600 at the age of 60.
This strange shape of the earnings of the general practitioner and the dentist is an amazing discovery, and it is a scientific discovery of the greatest importance. The Royal Commission made this discovery but, so far as I can see, did not realise the importance of what they had done. They certainly never asked themselves why it happened. It is only fair to say that Professor Jewkes, in his Minority Report, asked himself this, and did consider the matter. So it is not surprising that the Royal Commission failed to suggest any remedy for this strange state of affairs. We in the medical profession know why it happens. General practitioners and dentists are paid, roughly, in the case of the "G.P.", or actually in the case of the dentist, for the amount of work they do. Consult-
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ants, on the other hand, are on a salary scale or career ladder where there is no such disability.
General practice is one of the toughest jobs physically and emotionally that there is. The "G.P." is a constant car driver and car parker. When most of us are packing up and going home, at 5.30 or 6 o'clock, he has done a day's work and is starting his evening surgery, which may go on one, two or more hours; and after that there are one or two more visits to do. A quarter of all the patients seen in his surgery, and half of those seen on his rounds, are suffering from serious illness. The "G.P." looks after the majority of the slowly dying patients when the hospitals and specialists ihave failed. He is responsible for most births, although he will be present only if the midwife is in difficulty. He makes virtually every initial diagnosis, and to relieve hospital beds we are continually asking him to do more. Moreover, as the result of modern discoveries he does more treatment and more active prevention than ever before. Finally, the number of research papers which he is publishing is steadily increasing.
The toughness of general practice as an occupation is clearly demonstrated by the high mortality rate among general practitioners—the highest, I think, in any profession. All this information is available to anyone who cares to read it. But the Royal Commission does not quote the sources among the papers it has consulted. The reason general practitioner incomes fall in the last decade of their practice is simply that the practitioners are fagged out: they cannot carry on at the same pace. With dentists the situation is exactly the same. At the start of a dentist's career he works absurdly tong hours to make a very high income. But in a comparatively few years he has just got to cut. This is surely something we must accept as a fact. It has been demonstrated and proved by the Royal Commission. And surely the Royal Commission should have looked at its own findings and suggested the remedy.
I now turn to the second part of the terms of reference: to determine, in the light of a comparison between doctors and other professions, what the doctors' incomes ought to be. There were two possible ways of doing this. The first was to work out the different kinds of jobs

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done by the different professions and to say if the doctors were in the right place on the table; and it would be necessary to do this in terms of the volume of work, the nature of the work and the difficulties and the rest—that is to say, a complete comparative job analysis. My general practitioner friends suggest that the easiest thing would have been to take the comparative mortality rates for the different professions and settle for that. The Royal Commission made no attempt at a comparative job analysis. The members of the Commission dismiss the whole matter in six short paragraphs. They claim in some mysterious way to have seen the whole picture and to have obtained sufficient information to enable them to exercise their judgment in making recommendations about the proper levels and spread of doctors and dentists' remuneration. Strangely enough, they pulled "out of the hat" a figure only 5 per cent. below that recommended by the British Medical Association, who had done the job much more carefully.
The alternative and much simpler way of going about it was to examine the trends of doctors' and dentists' pay, and to compare them with trends of pay in other professions over a period of years and to see whether the doctors were slipping back or getting too far ahead. This is precisely what Professor Jewkes did in his Minority Report. He found that between 1950 and 1959 the average person was 20 per cent. better off, while the average general practitioner was 20 per cent. worse off. Accordingly, he recommended an average annual net income for general practitioners of £2,550 a year, as compared with the Royal Commission's recommendation of £2,425 a year. Is it possible that the Government rushed to accept the Royal Commission's Report before the doctors realised that the proper figure might well be £125 a year higher than that which the Royal Commission had recommended? Of course it is not. I am sure the Government just had not studied it closely enough, and that they will now hasten to put right this manifest wrong. I do not pretend to know what the "G.P." ought to be paid. I do know that Professor Jewkes' approach was logical and reasonable, and that the Royal Commission advanced no serious arguments for its conclusions. My Party therefore accept Professor Jewkes' findings and
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believe that the Government should change their mind and do the same.
Assuming that either the Royal Commission or, as we think, Professor Jewkes is right, how should the money be spread among the "G.P.s?" Here again, the Royal Commission lost its way between an attempt to stick to its limited terms of reference, thus producing a spread of incomes similar to that in other professions, and a series of half-hearted glances at the broader issues. To attempt to mirror the spread of incomes in other professions is to assume that a general practitioner's work is like that of other professions. In fact, it is very different. However good the group to which the "G.P." belongs, most of his work must be done alone with his patients, in his consulting room or in their homes. Each day he has to see between 40 and 80 people, and at the end of each interview he has himself to reach a definitive and responsible decision. There is not the time, save in very exceptional cases, to call in a colleague or senior. He sees before him the whole gamut of sickness and health and human happiness and misery, and more than ever before in human history he is able, if he knows his job, to take positive steps to help those who need his help. Within this wide context we have to set the fact that his work does not change from the day he starts to the day he retires. Thus his work is utterly unlike that of an engineer or solicitor or architect or accountant. The only near analogy is that of a parish priest.
We believe, and we think most doctors believe, that the first consideration in the way a "G.P." is paid ought to be the encouragement of the best possible service to his patients, whether they are rich or poor, in country or in town, whether their ailments are severe or trivial, remediable or fatal. In the first ten years of the National Health Service it has been shown beyond all doubt that the way the doctor is paid helps to determine the service he can give. Yet to this fact the Royal Commission directed little or no attention.
It was a great disappointment to most of the medical profession to find that the Royal Commission adopted, without making any field investigations, recommendations which would tend to work against the public interest. Everyone

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who studies the matter knows that the future success of general practice depends on the futher development of group practice which, as my noble friend Lord Moran said, may well be associated with extra hospital work and specialisation within groups. But, for obvious reasons, group practice is impossible in many rural areas—there are not enough people and the doctors therefore cannot form groups. To encourage group practice, the doctors and the Ministry have between them worked out an excellent cash incentive scheme to group practice. As a result, the number of doctors in partnership has increased, since it has been going, by about 25 per cent. Without giving any evidence or reasons, the Royal Commission describes these cash incentives to group practice as "somewhat excessive." Likewise, without field investigations or work studies, they criticise the extra cash rightly paid to rural practitioners as "somewhat overdone". On these matters the Royal Commission views are, I think, somewhat mistaken, and I hope that they will be altered.
We welcome the recommendation that the excellent interest-free group-practice loans fund, which enables doctors to build modern group-practice centres, should not come out of the doctors' earnings pool as it does at present, provided that the new capital made available continues to be interest-free. It is because the money is interest-free that it has been used so well that in five years something like 300 new group-practice premises have been built by the doctors themselves, thus enabling them to give better service to something like two million patients.
Perhaps the greatest disappointment of the Royal Commission Report to those of us who care about the quality of the Health Service—here, again, I agree completely with what my noble friend Lord Moran said—was the attitude of the Royal Commission to list size: that is, the number of patients that a general practitioner in the National Health Service may look after. Without any field studies whatsoever, without quoting the extensive literature, they concluded—here I quote:
"We doubt whether anyone is competent to set a fixed and universal limit to the number of patients a doctor should have."
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They seem here to have been caught by some strange irrational prejudice, and swept along by it regardless of the facts.
Here I really can claim to speak from a fairly wide experience. When I arrived in your Lordships' House I was delighted to find that there was already in the Library a book I wrote called Good General Practice. While I was working on this for the Nuffield Provincial Hospitals Trust, I remember seeing two doctors in a Northern industrial town. When the appointed day for the start of the National Health Service came and their patients had to register, they found that between them they had 17,500 patients. To get their lists down, they immediately took in two partners and an assistant. No doubt they would have claimed that they were giving a good service in the old days. They were not, and they could not. If a doctor takes no proper history—here again I entirely agree with what Lord Moran said—and seldom examines a patient, he can claim to look after a huge number of people. But this is a travesty of medicine.
The Royal Commission says that no one is competent to fix a top limit; yet the Ministry and the doctors between them have rightly fixed, first, a limit of 4,000, and then, when the Danckwerts Award came along, a limit of 3,500. I say categorically—and I think my noble friend Lord Moran agrees—that no man can go on looking after 3,500 patients over the years and continue to do his job properly. Remember, we are asking "G.P.'s" to do more and more to keep patients in their homes, to save hospital beds. Your Lordships will remember the Mental Health Act of the last Session. The essence of it was to keep patients with nervous and mental illness out of hospital. Yet those are the most time-consuming patients of all. All good general practitioners know that better doctoring for the patients will be possible only if lists are reduced still further.
We all hoped that the Royal Commission would help us to take the next stage forward. Since they have failed to do so, it is now up to the profession as a whole to tell the Government quite clearly what must be done. There will always be a few who will not agree—

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for example, my friends in the Northern industrial town who thought they could look after over 8,000 patients each. But those are just the places where smaller lists are most needed in the patient's interests. We therefore advise, at the time that this award is introduced, an immediate reduction in the maximum permitted list size down to 3,000. To do this might require about 400 extra doctors in general practice, but they are coming, forward. Because the general practitioners' pool of payment is calculated not on the number of patients but on the number of doctors, it will not mean any reduction in the earnings of the average "G.P." Indeed, in the long run it might work the other way.
The third place where the Royal Commission have failed badly because of lack of knowledge is in their proposal for merit or distinction awards for general practitioners. They suggest that half a million pounds should be divided in lots of between £500 and £1,000 and given to 750 distinguished or meritorious general practitioners. Quite apart from the merits or demerits of the scheme, as a practical proposition it is just "out of this world." I spent two years studying in detail the work of 100 general practitioners. First, I would say that nothing short of a two-day visit, living and working with a "G.P.", will enable one to assess his real quality and merit. Real merit often bears little relation to the opinion held of a general practitioner by consultants, and even by his own colleagues who do not see him at work. Membership of Committees, published articles and good practice organisation are not certain criteria of excellence. There are 22,000 general practitioners from whom the fortunate 750 must be selected.
I am not surpised that some general practitioners have suggested that the best answer is an annual lottery with 750 prizes. Even if they could be visited as I visited them, it would be virtually impossible to pick out the top 5 per cent., which is what the Royal Commission want. One could pick out the worst 5 to 10 per cent. and perhaps even the best 25 per cent., but within that 25 per cent. who are all doing much the same work equally well, honest selection would not merely be invidious but be impossible. I am sure that however much the noble Lord, Lord Moran, may
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want it, it just cannot be done, and I am sure also that the enormous majority of general practitioners and the great majority of good general practitioners will agree that selection for alleged merit, even if desirable, which it may not be, is just impracticable.
But, on the Royal Commission's own showing, there is need for a differential payments scheme for "G.P.'s", and the differential needed is for doctors' age. It is not a reward for merit; it is simply that if you look at the curve you find that what is happening is that the incomes of older doctors in general practice are going down because they cannot do the work. The Royal Commission says that general practitioners' and specialists' pay should be related roughly as they are at present. But, over 50, the "G.P.s" drop down while the specialists go up. To keep the curves running roughly parallel would mean stepping up the "G.P." over 50 by an extra £50 a year for each year between 51 and 60; so that at 60, a general practitioner would get an extra £450 a year. This might be linked with a minimum list of say 1,000. It might stay steady from 60 to 65, and then end at 65. I estimate that it would cost—this is an estimate for putting the two curves parallel and getting rid of the fall—just over £1 million a year, or twice the Royal Commission's figure of half a million pounds for the differential awards. But it would be fair and honest. It would put right a manifest wrong and would reward those who had borne the heat and the burden of the day and give them a chance to ease up a little when most of us ease up, without financial detriment to themselves and their junior partners. We therefore strongly commend this differential payments scheme both to the profession and to Her Majesty's Government.
The attempt to assess merit and reward it with cash is not new. It has been done on a world-wide scale by the Nobel Prize Committee since 1901. What is new is the size and number of the awards made to the consultants in the British National Health Service in the last twelve years and the secrecy with which this process has been surrounded. These awards are, of course, over and above the consultants' salaries which themselves go up to over £3,000 a year. The Royal Commission

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have done a real service in making the first proper statistical analysis of the whole process and in recommending that such a similar analysis should be made every year. From this we can learn a great deal.
There are just over 300 consultants holding top merit awards of £2,500 a year and about 25 new replacement awards are made every year. The average age for such an award is 53, and it continues for twelve years and thereafter counts for pension. Its untaxed cash value over the full period is therefore about £50,000, assuming that the doctor is engaged whole time in the National Health Service. Actually, however, nine-tenths of the "A" merit award holders are part-time, so that the average value of the "A" merit award over the years is about £30,000. I can see no objection whatever to revealing the names of the recipients of these top merit awards. I am sure they are honestly and rightly awarded and we should be delighted to congratulate the recipients. They are our medical Nobel Prize men and as such should be publically acclaimed and acknowledged.
If we take the merit awards as a whole, we find that they are granted to 34 per cent. of our consultants, although, as my noble friend Lord Moran has said, that may alter a little if the Royal Commission's recommendations for "freezing" are implemented. When he starts, of course, a young consultant has not got a merit award. He has to show his merit. The average age for getting a first merit award is about 45; so whereas one in three of all consultants have merit awards, the proportion must steadily increase with age. Indeed, of the 147 consultants who retired last year 81 (or 55 per cent.) had merit awards. Any consultant, therefore, has a more than even chance of an award before he retires. Of course, everyone who gets a merit award is delighted, and I am sure they all deserve it; but what about the 45 per cent. who wait and wait and never achieve merit? The effect on them is appalling and wholly bad. Can we be sure that among them are not many who deserve as well of their patients and the nation as the fortunate 55 per cent.?
I believe that ultimately we shall all be driven to the view that the only honest
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and right thing to do for the future is to amalgamate the "C" merit awards—that is the lowest one, the £500 a year—with the general consultants' salaries. The potentially fortunate ones would get a little less, but the invidious process of selecting at this comparatively low level of merit would end, in my view to the great benefit of general hospital morale.
The second level of merit awards—the B awards, of £1,500 a year—are given to about 800 consultants. Quite rightly, two-thirds of these awards are divided among the 2,000 teaching hospital consultants. Nobody criticises that: it is as it should be. Quite rightly, also, 85 per cent. of the top merit awards, the A awards, also go to these 2,000 consultants. It follows that nearly half of the teaching hospital consultants have A or B merit awards; and since most are given in the latter half of the men's careers, the Chances of a teaching hospital consultant getting a high award before he retires are very high. And, indeed, this is as it should be. But, again, what about the poor chaps who are left out? Is this elaborate business really justified and really morally right?
We have reached the conclusion that the proper course for the future is to amalgamate the B awards with the salaries of teaching hospital consultants and special Regional Hospital Board units. The effect will be much the same as at present, but the invidious process of choosing and excluding will go. The Royal Commission proposes to jack up the amounts of all merit awards by between £250 and £500 a year. This is fair enough, but the Commission also proposes 100 new A Plus merit awards of £4,000 a year, in addition to the 300 A awards of £3,000 a year. The new A merit award would bring the top consultant's whole-time peak salary to £6,900 per year, plus pension. Remember, however, that most of these men are part-time; and private practice at the top has, thanks to the business boom and the B.U.P.A. and other insurance schemes, been doing very well indeed. In the face of this, we feel that there is no real justification for the A Plus awards—that is, the extra £1,000 over sand above the £3.000, which itself is on top of £3,900—and that it would be much better to increase the number of A awards to, say, 450. We hope very much that the

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consultants will feel as we do and that Her Majesty's Government, on consideration, will also agree with this.
To sum up our proposals for consultants, they would cost the nation no more than the Royal Commission's proposals. The Committee of the noble Lord, Lord Moran, will have to pick out only the top 450 men and women from the profession, instead of 2,800, as at present. Those who are appointed to special posts will automatically get special recognition. But the secret division of staffs within hospitals into better-paid sheep and worse-paid goats will cease.
My Lords, we have come a long way since the great Lord Moran said that the thing he liked about the Garter was "that there was no damned merit in it". "Merit", said Lord Palmerston, "is the opinion one man entertains of another"—
LORD MORAN: My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Lord, he is crediting me with a remark I certainly never made. That is a well known thing.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I am sorry; I thought I said "Lord Melbourne". As I was about to say, my noble friend Lord Moran and his Committee have performed an impossible task very well, and our proposals would convert the task from an impossible one to a possible one; but they have to remember that the most meritorious prophets are not always popular. I doubt whether in 1938, eleven years after the discovery of penicillin. Alexander Fleming would have got an A Plus or even an A merit award. The same might be said of the first doctor to sit in your Lordships' House, Lord Lister. When he came South from Edinburgh in his fiftieth year he was greeted in London with jeers and sneers. His patients, however, knew the truth, and this is what one of them, W. E. Henley, said:
"If envy scout, if ignorance deny,
His faultless patience, his unyielding will,
Beautiful gentleness and splendid skill,
Innumerable gratitudes reply.
His wise, rare smile is sweet with certainties,
And seems in all his patients to compel
Such love and faith as failure cannot quell.
We hold him for another Herakles
Battling with custom, prejudice, disease,
As once the son of Zeus with Death and Hell."
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Envy and ignorance, custom and prejudice, are still our enemies.
Compare this great man with a humble general practitioner. In a house off Fleet street lived a grumpy old widower who supported, out of charity, four strange familiars—blind Mrs. Williams; the Negro, Frank; the cat, Hodge, and poor Levett. Poor Levett saw his patients on foot, and when offered payment in a glass of spirits he did not want he drank it so as not to offend. Yet, thanks to that grumpy old widower, he too has achieved immortality:
"Well try'd through many a varying year
See Levett to the grave descend;
Officious, innocent, sincere,
Of every friendless name the friend.
"Yet still he fills affection's eye,
Obscurely wise, and coarsely kind;
Nor, letter'd arrogance deny
Thy praise to merit unrefined.
"When fainting Nature called for aid,
And hovering death prepared the blow,
His vigorous remedy display'd
The power of art without the show.
"No summons mock'd by chill delay,
No petty gains disdained by pride,
The modest wants of every day
The toil of every day supply'd.
"His virtues walked their narrow round,
Nor made a pause, nor left a void,
And sure the Eternal Master found
His single talent well employed."
My Lords, this "power of art without the show," this "merit unrefined," would have gained no merit award in general practice. The Royal Commission have worked hard and done well, but if they had known their Johnson I think they would have written a better Report.
4.23 p.m.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): My Lord's, my noble friend Lord Hailsham, who would otherwise have been in charge of this debate, is at present abroad, and I must ask your Lordships' indulgence in making a few very brief observations upon a subject on which I know a great deal less than any of your Lordships who are taking part in this debate. Burt I am lucky enough to have the help of my noble friend Lord St. Oswald, whose normal duty it is to speak for the Ministry of Health and who will be winding up. I should like to begin by thanking and congratulating the two noble Lords, Lord Moran and Lord Taylor, for the most informative and authoritative speeches with which they have opened the debate, including the

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fine poetic termination to which we have just listened.
This is the first time on which there has been a Parliamentary debate on this subject in either House since the publication of this Royal Commission's Report on Doctors' and Dentists' Remuneration. There are two general observations which I have to make about the Report. The first is that it is a long and carefully reasoned document which bears witness all the way through to the care which has been devoted by the Chairman and members of the Commission to every aspect of professional remuneration, and the Government are greatly indebted to the Chairman, Sir Harry Pilkington, and to the other members of the Commission for their unremitting labours over a period of nearly three years.
The other thing I have to say, is that the Government have carefully considered the recommendations which have been made and, as has already been announced, the two Health Ministers, my right honourable friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Minister of Health, have informed the profession that the Government are prepared to accept the Commission's recommendations as a whole as they stand, provided that the doctors and dentists respectively, for their part, are ready to accept them on the same basis. That is to say, the Government are prepared to accept the Commission's recommendations for both hospital doctors and general medical practitioners together, if the medical profession does so also; and the recommendations for both hospital dentists and general dental practitioners together, if the dental profession accepts them in the same way. My two right honourable friends the two Health Ministers have drawn attention in making this offer to various matters which are an integral part of full acceptance of these recommendations, including the establishment of a standing body to keep medical and dental pay under review on the lines proposed by the Commission.
The preliminary discussions which these Ministers have had with representatives of the professions have been helpful, and my right honourable friends have offered, as the next step, to arrange for the proposals to be worked out in detail jointly by officers of the Health Departments with representatives of the
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professions in order that as clear and comprehensive a picture as possible of their practical effect may be put before their members. We understand that before that can be done this will have to be put to the professions through the appropriate channels and the Government hope that the professions will reach their decisions and enable discussions to begin as soon as possible. Your Lordships may have noticed that the Council of the British Medical Association are recommending their representative body, which meets next month, to accept the Minister's offer and to authorise participation in these discussions.
I think it would be better if the extremely interesting and detailed proposals and criticisms of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, were to be replied to at the end of the debate, because your Lordships are all looking forward to hearing the speeches of a number of noble Lords and one noble Lady, all of whose advice on this subject is of special interest to the country, and I do not think it would be right that the Government spokesman at this stage in the debate should take up too much time. I am particularly anxious not to do anything to delay or impede the desire of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, to form a united front with Lord Moran. A great many of the criticisms of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, though not all of them, were concerned with matters which have not yet been finally decided but will fall to be discussed in the negotiations which we hope will take place between the Ministry of Health and the professions, and I have no doubt that the noble Lord's views will be duly noted and considered at those discussions.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Earl for one moment? That is a very important statement and, so far as we are concerned, a most satisfactory one, because I do not think anyone quite knows what the term "accepting the Report as a whole" means. One had hoped that there would be room for discussion of the large numbers of detailed matters.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I am most interested to hear the noble Lord say that, and I think I shall try to confine my own observations, very

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briefly, to the few things which ought to be said on behalf of the Government about the principal recommendations of this Report. In doing so, I hope I shall be able to go some way towards enabling the noble Lord to see which parts of these proposals are to be accepted as part of the package deal, and what aspects of them are still open to discussion.
First of all, there is the Review Body, which is proposed in paragraph 438 of the Report. We hope that this is a recommendation which may lead towards future harmony between the Government and the professions. I think it is more likely to have that effect, it is more likely to lead to harmony, if questions of remuneration are settled not by the difficult processes of negotiation which have hitherto prevailed but on the recommendation of a Review Body. In their Report the Commission considered with great care possible alternatives for ensuring that medical and dental remuneration is fairly based, and they proposed that this standing Review Body should consist of a chairman and six other lay members, all of whom should be persons of eminence and authority, to be appointed after consultation with the medical and dental professions. This Body should advise the Government, and concern itself only with major matters. It should itself take the initiative in considering changes, though it would also give advice if it were asked to do so by the Government.
There are one or two questions which have been raised about certain aspects of this proposal for a Review Body, and I should like to make the points which have been raised quite clear. In the first place, it has been asked how the Government would interpret the recommendation that the members of this Body should be appointed after "consultation" with the professions. I think that is quite easy to clear up. On the one hand, of course, it would not be constitutionally proper that the medical professions should have a formal right of veto of any member to be appointed: but, on the other hand, the Government recognise that this Review Body would be no use if its members were not acceptable to the professions. Therefore, if the Report is accepted, the comments of the professions will be invited on a provisional list of members, and their
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views will be fully taken into account. We shall do our best to see that the medical professions will be satisfied with the membership of the Review Body.
Then, the Commission point out in their Report that, since the function or this Review Body is to advise the Government, only the Government ought to have the right formally to approach it. That may be so, technically; but we are ready to give an undertaking that any representations which the professions wish to make to the Review Body will be passed on to it by the Government, including any suggestions that for some particular reason a review earlier than the normal minimum period of three years may be desirable. With regard to the procedure of the Review Body, subject, of course, to the particular recommendation of the Commission that it should meet in private, which I think is obviously desirable, I do not think we ought to lay down any rules of procedure for a body of this kind, which is going to consist of persons of eminence and authority. We must leave it to them to decide their own rules and their own procedure. But the Government recognise that the medical professions do attach special importance to being able to present their arguments to this Review Body orally, and are therefore prepared to make a recommendation to the body that the professions should be given that opportunity if they wish to have it.
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Moran, has said, we think this Report must be accepted, if it is accepted at all, as a whole. The noble Lord used the more modern phrase of "a package deal". However, I ought to mention one small exception to that, which I had thought was only of incidental importance but which I was a little disturbed to find the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, evidently thinks is of some importance, because he devoted a good deal of his speech to it. That is the recommendation in paragraph 449:
"… that arrangements should be made for the Board of Inland Revenue to make available to the Review Body such information about professional earnings as that Body may require, and for the information to be published to the extent that the Body may determine."
For reasons which I hope your Lordships will understand, including the objections to making available for other

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purposes confidential information obtained solely for taxation purposes, we do not think it would be possible, as the Royal Commission had in mind, for the Inland Revenue to supply the Review Body with information about the profession's earnings. But the Government are confident that the Review Body should be able to obtain the necessary information by other means, such as sample inquiries, and will be ready to give the Review Body any help to this end which lies within their power.
The noble Lord, Lord Moran, pointed out that the recommendations are, of course, different in relation to hospital doctors on the one hand and to general medical practitioners on the other. So far as the hospital service is concerned, the Royal Commission has recommended new and much improved scales, and have paid particular attention to the need for improvement in the salary of young doctors. I think one of the most interesting features of the Report is the increase in pay which is recommended for the junior hospital staff. Whereas the general increase for doctors as a whole is something like 22 per cent. above that of 1956, the increase to house officers is over 50 per cent., and the result has been a very considerable scaling-up in the rates of pay which a recently qualified young doctor can expect. This represents a very striking difference as compared with the pattern of earnings of hospital doctors before the Health Service came in. For example, for a house officer the rate of pay recommended for the very first post held is £675 a year. The Royal Commission's recommendation would certainly afford to the junior resident recognition of the fact that he is a responsible doctor still learning his job, but none the less worthy of an economic salary. The changes in the rates of pay of registrars and senior registrars are less striking, but the same trend is visible.
In paragraph 293, on page 101, the Commission has suggested that, as an aid to recruitment, hospitals outside the towns and cities containing teaching hospitals should be allowed to pay up to an extra £100 a year in order to recruit suitable staff in The grades of registrar, junior hospital medical officer, senior house officer and house officer. This proposal is designed to help hos-
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pitals in peripheral areas which have difficulty in getting staff, and the Government certainly hope to work out, in consultation with the profession, a scheme for putting this into effect.
I rather hesitate to say anything about the distinction awards, because that seems to be the main obstacle in the formation of this united front between Lord Taylor and Lord Moran. As the noble Lord, Lord Moran, told us, the distinction awards system for consultants was introduced into the National Health Service on the recommendation of the Spens Committee in 1948. The Royal Commission has strongly endorsed the principle of this system, and has recommended increases in the value of existing awards to the figures of £750 for C, £1,750 for B, and £3,000 for A awards, respectively, and the introduction of the new proposed A-plus award of £4,000.
I think we can well understand Lord Moran's observations about the difficulty with which he copes so well as Chairman of his Committee in deciding on these awards, and I think we all recognise that there are bound to be criticisms of it. There is sometimes a certain amount of feeling that under the present system more than an average number of awards may be held in some particular specialty, or at certain hospitals. The reason is that there are differentiations between specialties in age distribution, in their attraction of the best men, in research activities, and sometimes in length of training. The number of people who go into one special branch of medicine often changes from one generation to another, and that is the reason why we may have at one time a larger number of these awards in one specialty which has been filled up some time ago. But that does not mean that in future there will not be an equally large, or even larger, number of awards in a new specialty which has not yet filled up, which has not reached the larger age groups to any great extent.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, the noble Earl will acquit us of making any criticism of this. We do not criticise the differential award at all.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Moran, spoke of a feeling which inevitably arises from the method of distributing these awards, which your Lordships can well under-

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stand. I think that the present award system does allow new situations to be met as they arise, without any change in the rule. It is the same as between hospitals. It is only to be expected that competition for posts between teaching hospitals should be more intense in their specialties, and it may mean that these hospitals may have a higher proportion of talented graduates. Awards are given purely on merit, without any attention to the particular branch of medicine in which the recipients are engaged.
The noble Lord, Lord Moran, reminded us that at present awards are granted to one out of every three consultants, and he suggested that as time went on the proportion might be reduced to one in four. As the noble Lord will see in paragraph 231 and 232 of the Report, when the Commission gave their reasons for proposing this change they pointed out that it will be one of the functions of the proposed new Review Body after the first three years to suggest any alteration in the number or awards which they think is required. The present fixed number is about one-third of the total number of consultants and it would be possible for this number to be raised and at the end of the three-year period reach more than that proportion.
In regard to the general medical practitioners the Commission endorse the system of paying their remuneration through a central pool. They remark that though this method is unusual, it has a number of practical advantages. They have recommended a change, which your Lordships will find in paragraph 339, in order to simplify it, and which I think will make it more easily understood by the general practitioner. The result of the new method is that the average general practitioner should receive a net average remuneration of £2,425 annually, which is about £260 per annum more than he is receiving at present. The Commission leave the question of detailed distribution of the pool to negotiation between the profession and the Government. They only make the suggestion that certain factors should be given due weight in the course of negotiation.
One of these suggestions, which I think the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, would not find easy to accept, is that there should be some reduction in the special benefits
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to be given to rural doctors at the expense of other practitioners and, in order to mitigate the preponderant influence of list size in determining their earnings, that greater weight should be given to other items than capitation. So far as country doctors are concerned, many of your Lordships will sympathise with the kind of work they have to do, but this and many other matters are among those which require detailed discussion in the joint negotiations which the Government and the profession will soon agree to start.
The same applies to the differential payments proposal which drew a great deal of criticism from the noble Lord. The Royal Commission thought it important that, if possible, some system acceptable to the profession, should be devised whereby some general practitioners might earn a good deal more than the average. They recommended in paragraph 348 that over and above the finance needed to meet other recommendations a special fund of £500,000 per annum should be provided to recognise distinguished general practice in accordance with a scheme to be agreed (it has not been agreed yet, and I understand that it will still be possible to consider the noble Lord's alternative of a lottery!) between the profession and the Government, but that this money should not be provided unless and until the scheme has been agreed. The Royal Commission recognised that many general practitioners might have strong views against any sort of merit award scheme in general practice, but they consider that there should be some arrangement whereby in the field of medicine, as elsewhere, the most distinguished practitioners may secure a larger income.
I think that I had better say a word about arrears. The Commission do not as a matter of principle recommend retrospective payments (paragraph 348). In fact their proposal for a Review Body is designed to eliminate the need for such payments. On the present occasion, having regard to the conclusions that arise about the levels of medical earnings in 1955–56, they recommend that from January 1, 1960, and the fact that in 1957 they were asked to recommend the "current" levels of remuneration, they consider that some payment in respect of past years for doctors and hospital dentists is called for. They recommend (in, paragraphs 395 to 398) that £9

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million for hospital doctors and hospital dentists and £11 million for general practitioners should be distributed in accordance with schemes to be agreed between the Government and the medical profession.
The noble Lord, Lord Moran said that he thought that general practitioners on the whole were not contented with the proposals in the Report.
LORD MORAN: My Lords, I am afraid the noble Earl misunderstood me. I meant that general practitioners were discontented with the life they led. It had nothing to do with the Report. I have not the slightest notion of what they think of the Report.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I am glad to hear that I have misunderstood the noble Lord. The people who may have some reason to be dissatisfied with this Report are the general dental practitioners. The Commission have recommended that in general terms hospital dentists should follow the recommendations made for hospital doctors, but that does not apply to general dental practitioners as compared with general medical practitioners. The Commission concluded that in 1956 both doctors and dentists were underpaid and that bath ought to have a roughly similar increase. Interim increases were given in March, 1957, and in January, 1959, both to doctors and dentists, but these increases at no time raised doctors' or hospital dentists' earnings to a level which this Commission thought appropriate. Therefore the Commission have recommended for doctors and hospital dentists an increase of rates from January 1 of this year, plus a lump sum for back pay.
So far as general dental practitioners are concerned, the information which the Commission had about their gross earnings subsequent to 1956 indicated that these earnings had risen substantially and progressively, and it was against this background that the Commission recommended no immediate change in the increased rates of remuneration and no back pay for the general dental service. The Commission have recommended for the future that the average general dental practitioner should earn £2,500 net per annum from the General Dental Service,
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this recommended level being related to the present number of hours worked by the average dentist, and they propose the early appointment of a Dental Rates Study Group whose function it would be to obtain factual information upon which the level of fees can be realistically assessed to secure the desired result. The Government feel that, with good will and co-operation, this Dental Rates Study Group could be welded into a most effective machine for safeguarding the level of dental remuneration in the years to come.
Although this Report has not yet been accepted by the professions, and it may be that there is still a lot of ground to cover before it is finally agreed to, the Government very much hope that it may open the way to a new and happier relationship between the Government and the doctors and dentists. Past differences over the important matter of remuneration, whatever the merits or demerits of those differences may have been, are extremely regrettable. As all your Lordships know, there is no profession in the world which is more unselfish and more devoted to humanity than the medical profession, and we have heard to-day something about how they are trained. I have always thought that if a man has to spend most of his life listening to the ailments of 1,000, or even several hundred, people every week, he must either become an extremely wise man or else go mad.
We have heard something from the noble Lord, Lord Moran, about the initial training in which doctors, as most of them do, learn to become wise men, and I am sure that none of us who is not a doctor could ever contemplate the task of looking after more than a few dozen people in that way. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Moran, may be right in saying that 3,500 patients is too many for any one doctor, but it is amazing how many people doctors do learn to look after and to how many people they are able to give the right advice quickly. I heard of one doctor the other day who was rung up by a mother who said: "My little daughter has just swallowed my fountain pen." The doctor was a very busy man, but he said, "I am sorry to hear that. I will do my best to get round, and I will be

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there in about three-quarters of an hour." The mother said: "Three-quarters of an hour? What am I to do in the meantime?"; and the doctor said, "Could you not try using a pencil?". I am sure it is one of the wisest professions in the world.
We know undoubtedly that the real object which both the Government and the medical profession have at heart is to ensure that the Health Service is developed and improved in an atmosphere of mutual confidence and respect, to the maximum benefit of patients for whose needs it is provided and also of the public who have to pay for it.
4.53 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I am sure that the members of my profession will be pleased when they read what the noble Earl. Lord Dundee, has just said about our profession in reply to my noble friends Lord Moran and Lord Taylor. We do appreciate very much the kind words he has said about the work that we do. One of the great advantages in not, taking part in the opening stages of this debate is that a great deal of what I might have said has already been covered so much better by my noble friends Lord Moran and Lord Taylor. Therefore, it does not leave a great deal for me to say, other than to cover one or two matters on which I feel a further word should be said.
In the first place, I am pleased that the Government are going to accept the Report more or less in toto. I feel that one could have no objection to the Pilkington Report, which is generally sound and good. One thing I would mention, as was mentioned by my noble friends Lord Moran and Lord Taylor, is what a good thing it is that there will be some permanent body to review rates of pay in the future; that we shall not have to go through all the trouble there has been in the past, but that it will be done more or less automatically and in a far simpler way. This will make a great deal of difference. I am sure, too, from the point of view of the consultants—and here I speak as a part-time consultant with a contract with one of the London teaching hospitals—that I have got nothing but praise for the Report and no serious criticism of that part of it. Personally, I have always found that the scheme of merit awards for consul-
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tants has worked well. So far as one can judge, it has been fairly administered and, for my part, I do like the idea of secrecy. The now nation put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, is most interesting, but at the moment I think the profession would do well to consider whether the merit award system has outlived its usefulness or should continue. What I am worried about is that the Royal Commission suggest that there should be a period when merit awards are, as it were, frozen. That, I think, would be a pity, and I wonder if the point could be looked into again with a view to the system carrying on regularly as it has done up to the present time.
One branch of people I should like to say a few words about before I sit down are the whole-time consultants, who seem to me to labour under certain disadvantages when compared with their part-time colleagues like myself. For example, they get little or no allowance for travelling expenses. They have difficulty in getting expenses paid if they visit conferences, meetings and such things in different parts of the country. They do not get money allowed for taking professional journals. These particular things apply to all people paid whole-time by the Service, both consultants and some of the younger members of the profession. Surely it is necessary that these younger members should visit conferences and meetings, if indeed conferences and meetings have any value, which we are always told they have. Whether that would be a matter for the Inland Revenue or the Minister to decide, I am not sure. Certainly it was not until the Budget of 1958 that it was possible for whole-time consultants to get some tax relief for the fees they pay to be a member of professional associations. Whether the other thing would apply to that, I do not know.
A further point is, that certain younger people who are not resident in hospital but have whole-time appointments are not required to have a telephone, but it is a great advantage for all concerned if they have one in their house. One would have thought that some part of that cost might be taken as a professional expense. The last thing, which I have always thought to be a peculiar anomaly, is that one of the jobs consultants are called upon to do sometimes is what are called domiciliary visits, for which they are paid a fee of four guineas. If a part-time con-

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sultant like myself is called out, I get my visits paid for regularly. But supposing I was a whole-time consultant I should need to do eight of these ancillary visits before I was paid anything. I cannot see what the magic of the word "eight" is. I cannot see why some get paid for the same work and others do not. I think that is an anomaly which might be looked into when the Government are considering a certain reconstruction in the payment of the medical profession.
We all share the noble Earl's pleasure that the younger members of the profession, house physicians and the like, are being paid a more substantial salary than they were. But I trust it will not occur now, as it has done in the past, that the cost of their keep was put up by the boards of governors so that they did not get any great increase in salary. Most of it went into the increased charge made for their board and lodging. I trust that it will be possible for the Minister to see that that sort of thing does not occur again, because it seems to me they will be getting nowhere at all. It is merely putting money into their pockets with one hand and taking it away with the other. Those are the things which occur to me when thinking about the full time employees of the Health Service.
I should like to say a word about general practitioners. Anything that can be done to improve their standing and conditions I think should be done, because they are one of the most important props of the service; and if there were not a good general practitioner service the Health Service as we know it could not possibly work. I was worried when I heard the noble Lord, Lord Moran quoting from Dr. Fox when he said that he thought unless the practitioners got back into hospitals, general practice in this country would not collapse but certainly undergo a great change. I think everything should be done to encourage them to go into the hospitals. At the same time something must be done to reduce the size of the general practitioners' lists.
Every noble Lord who has spoken is in agreement that it is impossible to look after 3,500 patients properly, efficiently and well. It may be done if the practitioner is very young, very
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active and very energetic, but I am sure that when they are getting to middle age they cannot look after a large number of people. I was attracted to the scheme suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, that there should be some payment made each year to the practitioner. From the age of 50 he should receive a bigger sum each year, and yet at the same time should be able to cut down the large number of people on his list, so that his total income would not fall although the amount of work he had to do would not be quite so great as it was.
One of the things we do not want to go back to is the custom of having so-called "good practices", where people charged substantial fees in better-class districts and did not have to work very hard, and second-class practices, where a club doctor, a shilling doctor or a half-crown doctor got very little money and had to cope with an enormous practice. I think the National Health Service has done a great deal of good work in breaking down this kind of thing. But I think it must go one degree further and see that the general practitioner does not get his back broken by too much work and that he should be allowed a certain amount of leisure when he grows older. I am sure that any steps the Government can take to do that will be welcome—even the system of merit awards, which I think will be difficult to work out and which I should have thought (although I know this was said about the consultants as well), will lead to ill-feeling between individuals. Therefore I think the scheme which the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, has put forward and which would cost a little more is a more equitable scheme and would be more acceptable to the profession.
5.5 p.m.
LORD COHEN OF BIRKENHEAD: My Lords, we have once again been indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Moran, for a comprehensive, cogently argued and, to me, in most respects compelling speech. His views are born, as we who know him best acknowledge, of a vast, unrivalled experience in medical fields, and we should expect that they would bear the imprint of such authority as he rightly wields. I should also express, with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, our gratitude to him for having overcome many of the birth pangs of the National

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Health Service and for having helped it through its earlier years, perhaps the more difficult years of infancy. I am also grateful to him personally for having supported the plea which I made in the last debate in this House on Hospital Services, that general practitioners should be more closely associated with hospitals and that there should be less use of hospital beds for purely hotel purposes. I think his figures were not exactly those of the Barrow Report, but certainly the R.H.B. (48) I Memorandum, which sought to determine the numbers of hospital beds necessary, gave as 5 per 1,000 the appropriate number of acute general hospital beds. Although there have now been three surveys, the Barrow Survey shows the highest required number, and that is under three.
We are also indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, for his wide and wise survey on most of the controversial issues of the Royal Commission's Report. We were wittily titillated, those of us who have been in practice, by his recital of the type of fee which was paid in the past. But I would warn him that the amount of the bill is not necessarily all earned in practice. Gull, Jenner and others might well have been among the fortunate Victorians who invested their money wisely. Indeed, I know of an ophthalmologist in my own city who left well over £500,000, but he owed that wealth not to the fact that he had earned it in the field of ophthalmology but because of the lucky circumstance of having a father who held some of the founder shares in a tobacco manufacturing firm which was later taken over by the Imperial Tobacco Company. In giving his views on dentists' remuneration, he neglected to pay a tribute to this remarkable discovery of the drop in income after the age of 42 to our mutual noble friend Lord McNair in his Report on Dentists.
I am sure we must be grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, who has clarified many of the more obscure inferences from the Royal Commission's Report and the Government's attitude towards them. I share the gratitude of the noble lord, Lord Amulree, to him for the panegyric which he has uttered on our profession. He suggested that we are perfect. But I would remind him of the perils which await perfection. There was a distinguished Roman,
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Mucius Scaevola, of whom it was said that he was not only the most brilliant of administrators, the most learned of jurists, the most distinguished of orators and the most persuasive of logicians, but that he was also a paragon of all virtues, both public and private. Well, my Lords, he was murdered on the altar of Vesta—which is tragic but hardly surprising.
Three years ago, following the appointment of the Royal Commission, there was a debate in this House in which powerful voices were raised, first because they feared that much of the information which was available and many of the documents which had played an important part in determining the doctors' remuneration would not be eligible for discussion by the Commission—such Reports as the Spens Report and the Danckwerts Award. Others were anxious lest the Commission should completely upset, for example, the merit awards. Others were not a little disturbed by the fact that the Minister of the day appeared to have suggested that if the Royal Commission's Report was not favourable to the Government, then the Ministry might not recommend the Government to implement it.
Since then hundreds of pages of evidence given before the Royal Commission have been published, not free from the occasional inflammatory utterance and not infrequently recording highly dramatic incidents. Three years after the Commission was appointed its Report was published. I share with all who have spoken to-day admiration for the Chairman of the Commission and the Commission itself and its Secretary in publishing a Report which is a monument to their industry and, despite some criticism which must clearly be levelled at the Report, to their sagacity. To my mind (and I think I should say this) much of the statistical evidence is irrelevant to the main issue; and secondly, much of the task which the Commission undertook may well have been determined a priori because the problem that was set them was resistant to a strictly rational solution. I will not enlarge on that because I have a suspicion that the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, in view of the article which she wrote in the Spectator a few weeks ago, will dilate in much greater detail on that particular aspect

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of the problem. But I share her anxiety and I, certainly without her wisdom on economic and social problems, share some of her fears because of the potential fallacies in the observations of the Commission.
Yet I am glad that its recommendations have been generally acclaimed and accepted by the Press and by my own profession as offering an equitable settlement of many outstanding problems. The British Medical Association and I believe the Royal Colleges all approve in principle the Report. They regard it on the whole as favourable to the profession and they accept it, as I say, in principle, if not in every detail. Many who regard Royal Commissions as a device for shelving Governmental responsibilities may be surprised that the Government themselves within a very few weeks were able to announce that they, too, accepted the principles in general of the Royal Commission's recommendations. I believe that, with goodwill on both sides, the stage is now set for a much brighter relationship and a much happier future between the Government and the profession. There are many matters of detail which, had there been time, I should have liked to discuss—the question of the weighting of part-time consultant session, the method of calculating the notional half days of a part-time consultant and how the retrospective remuneration is to be distributed, and the like. But it seems to me that these are primarily matters which should be discussed by the profession with the Government representatives.
There are, however, two major matters of principle which have engaged our attention almost to the exclusion of all others this afternoon. They are merit awards, which in the case of general practitioners are referred to as "differential payments", and the Review Body. The consultant merit or distinction awards, whatever doubts were expressed about them at first, whatever anxieties might have been felt at their inception, have been resolved since the machinery has been clearly defined and since we have experienced its working for nearly ten years; and they have been resolved very largely because of the judicial approach to many of the problems to which merit awards gave rise by the noble Lord, Lord Moran, as Chairman of the Awards
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Committee. No one doubts that the theory of merit awards is unique and that it is wholly illogical in theory, but it works. I believe that if we are to retain differentials—and, after all, one does retain them in every aspect of academic and professional life—it is better to retain the differentials as they are at the moment than merge the "B" and "C" awards, in the manner which the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, suggested, into the normal remuneration of teaching and non-teaching hospital consultants.
Difficulties have in the past arisen because it has been thought that merit awards reflect solely the service which the consultant gives to a patient. It has been made abundantly clear that they are awards for distinction and not simply for the quality of service which is given to the patient. There are other fields, indirect as well as direct, in which the quality of service to a patient and the quality of service to medicine in general can be recognised. The noble Lord, Lord Moran, explained quite clearly that although the "A" merit awards were on a national basis, the lower awards were fundamentally determined regionally by regional bodies, which, although having no statutory authority (which was vested in the Awards Committee) yet advised the Awards Committee so that it was almost impossible for the Awards Committee to deviate from firm recommendations if they were widely held. Obviously, it is inevitable in the case of the consultant awards that there should be regional and specialist advice on the merits of any consultant. You cannot compare the merits of an orthopedic surgeon at Ormskirk with an ophthalmic surgeon at Oswaldtwistle, but you can determine in general what type of service, what quality of service, what merit of service is being given by consultants.
There are, however, one or two anomalies and certainly one abuse to which I should like to refer, and I am sure that if the noble Lord, Lord Moran, knows of them he will rapidly rectify them. The first is that there are anomalous situations in which most distinguished professors of subjects which are eligible for merit awards, solely because of the local set-up are prevented from receiving them. I do not want to specify names because this is not a matter, I am sure, of which the noble Lord is unaware. Secondly, I have

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come across examples of an abuse of the award system, where a university has endeavoured to attract a distinguished professor from a university where he is getting only a part-time award at an "A" level, to the other university where he is promised a full merit award. I think that that is a most serious matter.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend, first of all, how the first university knows about this award? These awards are secret. If this gentleman is getting an award at another university and that fact is known, does it not mean that the secrecy is unreal?
LORD COHEN OF BIRKENHEAD: The noble Lord must surely know that there are varying degrees of secrecy. There are secrets as between the noble Lord and his noble Lady; there are secrets as between the noble Lord and his children; there are secrets as between the noble Lord and members of his own Party, if I may say so; and it is not difficult on these occasions, as I am sure anyone familiar with university matters will agree, to know that a certain professor receiving a merit award. Indeed, when he is interviewed for a post or applies for it, it may well be that one of the conditions of his accepting it is that he will receive a similar "quantity" of award because the same award in quality remains.
There is another point which I think worthy of mention: namely, that in this country, medically qualified pre-clinical staff—anatomists, physiologists and bioahemists—are not eligible for merit awards. I have met this situation in Northern Ireland where, in November, 1955, I was invited by the Government of Northern Ireland, the Hospital Authority and the University to recommend a method of determining which pre-clinical teachers should receive merit awards. I learned several facts which were then new to me but which I am sure are of profound importance—namely, that before merit awards were instituted for pre-clinical professors before they became consultant members of the staff hospital, the surgeons, for example, hesitated to consult them over, say, an anatomical or physiological problem because they felt that their pre-clinical colleagues were not members of the hospital staff. Now that these are members of the hospital staff and are
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receiving merit awards, they have no hesitation in consulting them over their problems, and there is a much closer and happier clinical and pre-clinical relationship than in many other universities.
I have said that the vast majority of the profession now agree that the merit award system for consultants is an admirable one and works fairly. The cynic might say that one-third of them receive these merit awards, another sixth will receive them, and perhaps those who fear that any vocal protests might jeopardise their chances of an award are not anxious to make their views known. But I do not believe that at all. I have to mix with a number of consultants in different teaching hospitals in different regions, and I am convinced that, particularly within the last few years, there has been virtually a complete acceptance of the objective and judicial determination of these awards and that it would be difficult to find many who would wish to upset that. Now, of course, the Royal Commission agree with that view, and with the arguments put forward for augmentation of the awards.
But I find the Royal Commission's paragraphs on differential payments for general practitioners among the least persuasive of this document. I think that they contrast with the clear and cogent advocacy of the rest of the document. If you look at paragraph 345 they say:
"We are of course aware that the nature of general medical practice is less favourable to extremes of income than that of most other professions or the other branch of the medical profession."
But their own figures show that there is just as much difference between the lower quartile and the upper quartile of the remuneration of general practitioners as of the consultants; and, indeed, there is on the general practitioner's side rather a balance in his favour. But if we take the average they are approximately the same—between the lower quartile and the upper quartile there is approximately a 50 per cent difference.
Then comes the statement, in paragraph 347:
"Unless one believes, as a matter of principle, in equal incomes for all, one must surely wish to see the higher incomes associated with some desirable quality, and among professional men the obvious quality is professional distinction.… There has probably never been an organisation in which some of the promotions have not been criticised, and those who are responsible for making decisions

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on promotion of staff know it to be a difficult task in which mistakes must inevitably sometimes be made."
But there is a method of differentiation—it may not be a very satisfactory one—in which the capitation fee method of payment does differentiate between the practitioner who has 3,000 patients and the practitioner who has 2,000 patients. It is true that it is not an arithmetically progressive change, because there are loading payments for 501 to 1,500 patients, yet it is there. That is one of the points which not only my own Committee but others have thought justified a capitation system. But again
"there has never been an organisation in which some promotions have not been criticised."
That is true. But these promotions in other organisations, and, as far as I know, in every other profession, are made by superiors who are well aware of what the man who is employed is doing. This would not be the case with general practitioners. We must face it that only one in 23, or perhaps one in 17, depending upon the amount of money which is given for each of these awards—let us say, only one in 20—practitioners would receive an award.
The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, has spoken of his Good General Practice, with which I am privileged to feel I have some association. But in my years of practice I met, not hundreds, but thousands of general practitioners all over the country, and I should have thought it extremely difficult to pick out those few practitioners who I thought merited an award. Of course, there are one or two who are quite outstanding and there are many who are at the opposite pole; but there are great difficulties, and I should have thought that if the Royal Commission had felt that this was extremely important they would have themselves produced an appropriate scheme. I confess I am sceptical when someone says to me, "It is not beyond the wit of man to devise such and such a scheme", because I know that it has defied his wit. I suspect that this defied the wit of the Royal Commission and so they did not put forward any scheme; and I am not surprised!
There are two factors to be considered here. One is whether general practitioner differential payments are
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desirable—and I would agree wholeheartedly that they are desirable. The other question is: are they practicable? I believe the evidence, at any rate so far as we have yet heard, is that they are not practicable. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, mentioned that I had been chairman of a Committee which had discussed this very problem among all the other problems of general practice which had then confronted the National Health Service. That was a Government appointed Committee, appointed by the Ministry of Health through their Central Health Service Council. As the noble Lord has said, that Report is completely ignored by the Royal Commission. No reference to it is made. But I am not speaking out of any embarrassment or bitterness; it is just that I feel that they might have learned a thing or two had they read the Report.
What did the Committee say about special rewards for efficiency and experience in general practice? Very briefly, they said this:
"Whatever may be the advantages of merit awards for consultants and specialists"—
and, so far as I know, no one on my Committee then doubted that they had advantages—
"in the field of general practice the suggestion was dismissed on purely practical grounds. Two types of criteria in particular have been suggested which might govern such payments. On the one hand, there are the objective criteria, such as age and length of experience of the practitioner, the possession of higher qualifications or the number of refresher courses he has attended. But none of these can give any guarantee of quality and at best a reward on this basis could only be made in the hope of some correlation between the objective factors and good service. On the other band, there is the subjective assessment of merit, and this, in the Committee's view, is open to even more serious objection if for no other reason than the very large number of practitioners whose work would have to be assessed and the consequent difficulty of securing any sort of uniformity of judgment."
Then there is the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor:
"The process of assessment might do very serious harm to the good relationships which at present exist between general practitioners in the Service and indeed it might undermine the very basis of group practice."
I might remind your Lordships that in order to stimulate group practice it was this Committee who, at the request of the Ministry of Health, drew up certain criteria of desirable group practice. It

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was not only the Cohen Committee but also much of the evidence given before the Commission which doubted the practicability of merit awards or differential payments for general practitioners. How were we to assess talent, industry, enterprise, quality of service, originality and so forth?
Within the last few weeks there has appeared in the journals of this country a large number of suggestions as to how merit in a general practitioner may be gauged. It is suggested by many that a points system would be appropriate for this; that for each of the qualities which a general practitioner possesses he should be given a certain number of points, and that if he reaches the appropriate level he will then obtain a merit award. Among these qualities are age, length of service, hospital experience, qualifications—and hence the more diplomas one has the more points one receives. The danger would be that doctors would pursue qualifications not for the sake of improving their skill or knowledge but from a desire to obtain additional criteria which secured merit awards.
Then, war service. I understand that a martial spirit may be desirable in dealing with a horde of patients in a surgery at eight o'clock in the evening, but it is surely no criterion of quality in general practice. I am not suggesting that some of these proposals are put forward very seriously, but they have been made. Having attended a refresher course, it is suggested, should add to the merit, as if one could make a horse drink if one took him to the water. Low prescribing costs is another of the criterion—equivalent to blackmailing the doctor into prescribing the least expensive drugs, even when the more expensive would improve the patient's condition more certainly and more rapidly.
A number of other, and I think quite meritorious, criteria have been suggested, such as having appropriate secretarial and nursing staff; having proper instruments in the surgery (provided the doctor uses them and does not merely display them); having an appointments system, and so on. There are some suggestions that I really cannot take seriously: belonging to committees of the British Medical Association, the Church Council or the St. John Ambulance Brigade, being in local poli-
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tics of on the Magistrates' Bench. One of my friends has suggested, I suspect quite cynically and light-heartedly, that there ought to be a series of polls—that the local pharmacists might be polled for the legibilty and accuracy of prescription writing; local consultants for the frequency of hospital referring and accuracy in presenting diagnoses; executive councils, local authorities, and the Ministry of Health, for speed in replying to official correspondence; with a Gallup Poll of patients for the doctor's popularity and a similar poll of general practitioners for the popularity of each general practitioner with his colleagues. A withering, scornful letter from Josephine Lee on this topic, which most of your Lordships will have read, has appeared in The Times.
Let me say this. Despite the unlikelihood of arriving at a widely acceptable scheme based on any criteria other than age and length of experience, I believe that this proposal should be re-examined, but with a much larger amount in mind, so that it affects not one in 23 but perhaps one in four or five. That might make the problem much simpler. Mind you, my Lords, if the principle of the problem is not wholly valid then no amount of money will justify it, but there might be a point in investigating and exploring the possibility. I believe sincerely that the least worthy reason for accepting this money would be that it is just another handful of silver to be put into the kitty. It would be a tragedy if discord and frustration, whether real or imagined, were to disturb the unity of general practice. Wordsworth, over 100 years ago (and I am tempted by my noble friend Lord Taylor's poetic quotations to quote Wordsworth) observing the advance of science, said:
"True it is That Nature hides her secrets less and less,
Man now presides in power where once he trembled in his weakness,
Science advances with gigantic strides,
But are we all enriched in love or meekness?"
Unless we can learn how to answer the last question, then we cannot know the criteria for general practitioner diffential payments. I should hope, however, that if for the Royal Commission's suggestion no satisfactory valid scheme can be found by which to distribute the £500,000 on the basis of differential payments, it might be used for other reasons.

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There are many gaps in our present remuneration of service. There are gaps, for example, in relation to the doctor working in an industrial city, whose life might well be shortened for years by the fact that he works in that centre, and who in the pre-National Health Service days might have changed his venue and practised in a more healthy atmosphere. Some scheme might be devised which might help him so to do. I think that general practitioners working single-handed should have some incentive, for their own sakes and for the sake of the patient, to take holidays; for at present, if they take them, they must pay for them themselves by providing cover although—and I think this is right—the consultant has six weeks holiday with pay each year. I think, also, that if the general practitioner becomes disabled during the course of his service in the National Health Service there should be some source to which he might turn for some help. These are a few, a very few, of the many possibilities. But I am most anxious to support the proposition that if the £500,000 cannot be used for one purpose, because it cannot be judicially distributed, it should be used for other appropriate purposes.
Finally, may I say just a word or two about the Review Body? This is another of the imaginative ideas for which, as the noble Lord, Lord Moran, reminded us, we are indebted to him. It was, as he said, the Royal Commission on the Civil Service from which emerged a Committee under Lord Coleraine—which is responsible for a similar review. I believe firmly that this is the best instrument for its purpose if the members carry the confidence of the profession, which the explanation of the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, now makes certain: first, that the membership will have the approval of the medical profession; that they will be consulted and shown a provisional list to comment on the proposed membership of the Review Body; and secondly, that they shall have direct access to the Review Body so that they can present their arguments to them. It has been suggested that this is an entirely novel approach, but as a matter of fact it has been used before. The Association of University Teachers have direct access to the University Grants Committee. Mr. Butler ensured that that would be so.
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My Lords, I fear that I have spoken at too great length, but I hope that the professions will agree and not press for any substantial alteration except on very minor details, and that they will discuss the recommendations of the Report in a co-operative spirit. May I conclude by expressing the earnest hope that this Royal Commission will have been the beginning—and that the Review Body will be the continuation—of a machinery which will prevent the disputes, the manifestos and ultimatums which have from time to time been displayed in public; that there will be an end to these, and that the brilliant history of the first dozen years of the National Health Service will not be scarred in the future, as it has been in the past, by these unseemly wrangles.
5.45 p.m.
LORD TEVIOT: My Lords, I find myself aligned with some very great men who are all professionals, and I am the first layman to take part in this debate. My excuse for doing so is that for two and a half years I was the chairman of the Inter-Departmental Committee which sat on the question of teeth and dentistry, and there is in existence a Report which I believe is referred to at times as the Teviot Report. I will not touch on the very learned discussion that has taken place and which has been contributed to by various noble Lords on the subject of remuneration. I will leave that side of the dental profession to the Dental Council, to fight out their own battles. But there are many things which I will deal with, quite shortly, because the noble Baroness and another noble Lord wish to speak and I will give them every opportunity to do so. After all, it is not six o'clock and it is not really so late that one cannot get up and say a few words.
It seems to me that one trouble has been demonstrated in this debate: that not enough importance is attached to the teeth and dentistry. In the two and a half years in which I sat as Chairman of the Committee something like 300 or 400 witnesses told their experiences in regard to the various aspects of the dental profession; and I am afraid that there is no doubt at all that there is a very great shortage of dentists if we are to have a comprehensive dental service throughout the whole country. I am sorry

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that the noble Lord, Lord Moran, is not here at the moment, but he said something at the beginning of his speech about there being a political aspect with regard to this question.
I can see no evidence of that in the debate, and I do not think it is political. It is a national matter of great importance. I feel that there is a good deal that has been said by the noble Lords, Lord Taylor and Lord Moran, and also by Lord Cohen of Birkenhead, with regard to the lives of the general practitioners and the medical profession which could be applied, and I believe very satisfactorily applied, to the dental profession. The Dental Council before my Committee sat was practically nonexistent, but is now a body of importance, and they take a great interest in everything that is necessary.
I want to read a very short piece of a letter that I have received. Naturally, I had any number of letters on this subject, and here is one from a Mrs. Roland. She apparently took a serious view about her children's teeth and saw that they were clean. One child, a daughter, went to school at 5½, and took with her, her mug, her toothbrush and toothpaste. The child proceeded, after the first school meal she had, to clean her teeth. The teacher said, "What on earth are you doing?" The child said, "I am just doing what I do at home. I am cleaning my teeth. After every meal I always do so if possible. That is what we do." To that the teacher said, "Put those things away. Nobody cleans their teeth in this school." That is the sort of thing that is going on, and I want to see something done about it: I think a great deal can be done, to the great benefit of the health of children. As noble Lords know, many children get earache, sore throats, and that sort of thing, which often are due to a tooth being wrong. I should like to see something done about that. I hope that this debate will be carefully read by those at the Ministry of Health, and that some of these ideas, which even a layman like myself has, might be adopted.
I asked a Question the other day which was answered by my noble friend Lord St. Oswald, who is going to reply to this debate, I am glad to say. He answered me. I am afraid, not very satisfactorily, so far as I was concerned, but I should
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like to read a few words of what he said [OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 222, (No. 59), col. 246]:
"… children's teeth are getting steadily worse and already have a higher incidence of decay than before the war."
Let us get at it at once. Noble Lords who are in the medical profession know perfectly well how important it is that the teeth of children should be carefully studied and taken care of. And it is not only the children: those of us who are farmers sometimes find that the teeth of our cows go wrong and that we must get them put right. It is the same, I understand, with racehorses. Their teeth are taken great care of, for if their teeth are wrong they do not win prizes and they do not win races.
My Lords, there is one other matter I should like to raise. I asked whether the situation still existed, because I found during the discussions we had that there was a practically unanimous feeling that, where you have children at school, and a child has developed, either on the way to school or during school hours, toothache, face-ache or whatever it is, you are not allowed, even if the dentist is available, to bring in that dentist to treat that child before you have the consent of the parents. That seems to be the sort of thing which, with a little propaganda, parents would see was an unwise provision; and I think that they would probably agree to do away with a regulation of that sort.
In the course of my two and a half years' work on this subject, immense interest and a great deal of information came from all sorts of people and from all parts of the country with regard to diet; and there is no doubt that diet is of great importance, as the noble Lord will at once admit, with regard to health generally, and in particular with regard to the teeth. My Lords, as it is now admitted that the condition of the teeth of the children of this country is very bad, let us try to do something about it, and not just say, "The toothbrush and mug, and that sort of thing, is not what we think might improve it." During the last war I was in China, and there it was amazing to see the wonderful teeth which the people had. In every school that I went to, where I could walk around and have a look, all the children had a mug and a toothbrush, and they all had the most

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beautiful teeth. In China they attach enormous importance to their teeth.
Then, just a word about dentists themselves. If you think of it, a dentist, when he sees a patient, has a very difficult task. One has often heard someone say, "I have to go to the dentist tomorrow. I would almost sooner face a lion. I am terrified of him", and so on. It is something of which we are frightened. We get a certain amount of pain from the treatment. The dentist needs to have a very Charming, sympathetic mind in order to deal with some of the nervous patients—and nearly all of us are a bit nervous when we are sitting in that chair with our mouths wide open. He has hard work to do: it is physically rather a difficult job, and is very tiring; his position is generally bending: and he has to be absolutely steady with his hands and the way he uses his instruments. There is every evidence that a great physical strain is put on a dentist during a day of dealing with people's teeth. Then, of course, it goes without saying that enormous importance is attached to the hygiene of their instruments, and of the other material used. As I have said, it is not only the teeth: very important parts of one's body can easily, and do, go wrong due to bad teeth.
I hear of merit awards that doctors get, but I have never heard of an award of merit for dentists; and I am wondering whether they should come into the picture as regards merit awards. I hope that that matter will be considered. My Lords, that is all I am going to say. It is only the result of the experience I gained during two and a half years' work on this subject which made me feel that I had to say a few words.
5.58 p.m.
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, I represent the last batsman, so to speak, on this side of the House, before my noble friend Lord St. Oswald winds up; and I feel sure that we are all waiting with great interest to hear what the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, has to say, so I shall be brief. I think we all enjoyed the speech of my noble friend Lord Teviot, who has just addressed us. He and I share one thing in common, and that is that, unlike the majority of noble Lords who have taken
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part in this debate, we are not practitioners. But I would add this to what he has said from his great knowledge of the dental profession: the importance of urging children to see dentists early in their lives, and to get used to the dentist's Chair. The lot of the dentist would be made a great deal easier, and children would be far less nervous, if they were introduced to the dentist, particularly, a lot sooner than many of them are. It is a great fascination for a child to be introduced to a dentist's chair. I remember my own experience. In these days, when both dentists and doctors are considerably overworked, it is action like this which would ease their lot.
I do not intend to deal with the financial side of this Report. The Motion deals with both remuneration and conditions of work, end I Shall confine my remarks to the latter aspect. First, a word about the National Health Service. I am not one of those who subscribe to the view that the National Health Service has been a failure; indeed, I think that very few people do. Of course, it has its faults. Its administration is cumbersome in some respects. But, being in the insurance business, I have had experience of dealing with claims by people who fall sick with poliomyelitis and other illnesses when in the United States, and I see the enormous expense with which they are confronted. Admittedly there is the Blue Star system, which perhaps is the equivalent of our National Health Service. But I think that before we criticise our own Service too much we should give a little consideration to the difficulties with which people are faced if they should fall ill when in a country like the United States. I have an acquaintance, a nurse, who has just returned from America, where she has been doing two years' nursing, and she has emphasised the cost of medical treatment there. I do not say that the standard of doctoring and nursing in America is any better or worse than our own—I have not had the experience of visiting that country, so it would be improper for me to comment—but, by and large, both doctors and patients under the National Health Service are playing their part fairly and wisely.
Of course, there are abuses, and I hope I shall not weary your Lordships if I quote just one. Recently my own doctor

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was confronted with this situation. A car pulled up outside his house at one o'clock in the morning. Out came two people, who knocked the doctor up. They pretended to be very shaken up, but when he examined them he found nothing wrong with them. It transpired that their car had broken down and they expected to have an ambulance laid on so that they could get to Mitcham, ten miles from where the doctor lived. Needless to say, the refused their request, and rightly so. One gets this type of abuse. One gets patients who are unco-operative, and on occasions may perhaps get a doctor Who falls down on his job; but, as in every profession, we hear all too much of the persons who fall down on their jobs and too little about those who do well. I believe that the doctors and dentists in this country are doing a really good job.
The limitation-of-patients rule has been mentioned during the debate. I do not claim to be any kind of authority on this matter, but it seems to me, from what information I have gleaned, that the rule is a little rigid. Surely a doctor who has a practice in a residential area is better fitted to cope with more patients than a doctor who lives in an industrial area. For example, a doctor in Sutton can probably cope with more patients than a doctor in Stoke-on-Trent.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I think the experience is generally the other way round, because patients in Sutton tend to talk twice as long as patients in Stoke-on-Trent.
LORD AUCKLAND: I am grateful to the noble Lord. The point I was trying to make was that in Stoke-on-Trent people tend to have larger families than people in Sutton. Whether that is true or not I cannot say, but in industrial areas families do tend to be larger than in residential areas and this would make a doctor's lot harder, particularly if an epidemic of infectious illness occurred. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, may have some comment to make on the limitation rule.
The noble Lord was kind enough to see me yesterday and I mentioned to him the problems of the locum and the partner. I am not sure of the exact situation here, but there seem to be certain difficulties with this scheme in
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some areas, and I think that a little more uniformity might be arranged. Similarly, the compensation paid to general practitioners who fall sick seems to be a little unfair compared with that of doctors in hospital practice. Here, again, I do not presume to be in possession of the facts and figures, but we know that a general practitioner has to work all hours of the day and perhaps night. He has to go out in all weathers and see all types of patients. I am not saying that a hospital doctor has an easy job—far from it—but the general practitioner not only combines a steady hand and careful eye, he has also to drive to his job sometimes in grim climatic conditions, and I feel that the compensation for general practitioners who fall sick and may be confronted with other expenses could be looked at. Again, perhaps the noble Lord who is to speak for the Government may have something to say, either now or in writing at a later date.
The debate has covered the medical profession in general, but so far mention has not been made of nursing staffs. After all, hospital doctors have to rely on matrons, sisters and nurses for much of the treatment which is prescribed. I do not think that this is an occasion for a debate on nursing conditions, but there are a number of improvements which could be made in the lot of nurses, both in general nursing and in mental nursing, particularly in regard to accommodation. Pay is often one of the greatest grievances, and I think that both in the doctoring and the nursing professions it is inadequate. But that is another matter. The conditions of service and good nurses' homes—and I am pleased to see that along with the new hospitals that are being built, nurses' homes are being improved—might well help in the recruitment of nurses. After all, if the recommendations of this Report are to be successful, the recruitment of nurses must be sufficient to go hand in hand with them.
The general public and the doctors must, of course, co-operate with one another, and I believe that as the Health Service progresses that is being done. After all, general practitioners, surgeons, consultants and dentists are all human beings, and they can work only to a certain capacity. If a patient dies, or if complications occur, it is all too

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common a practice to blame the doctor, and we see reports of a doctor who has been struck off the register for incompetence or negligence. But set against that the outstanding work which is being done in all branches of the medical profession which often does not get sufficient recognition. I think that both the noble Lord, Lord Moran, who has had such a distinguished medical career, and the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, have done a great service by initiating this debate today.
6.13 p.m.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, the late Earl Lloyd-George, then Mr. David Lloyd George, is said to have remarked, when he was piloting the first National Insurance Act through Parliament, that in his dealings with doctors, which were numerous and extensive, he found the medical profession to be both unruly and unreasonable. No one who has listened to-day to the speeches made by the noble Lords, Lord Moran, Lord Taylor and Lord Cohen of Birkenhead, could detect the slightest trace either of unruliness or of unreasonableness; and the whole of the discussion which has ranged around the question of doctors' remuneration since the appointment of the Royal Commission has, one might say, been conducted in a spirit of sweet reasonableness.
I should like to associate myself with all that has been said this afternoon in support of the work which has been done by the Royal Commission, and, I would add, in support of the most valuable evidence which was produced before the Commission by the representatives of the medical profession. I should like also to associate myself with the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, in welcoming what he called the new and happier relationship which this perhaps portends as between the medical profession and the Government, and in particular the Ministry of Health. I welcome, too, the elasticity which was apparent in the speech of the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, where he made it perfectly plain that, although the Government are accepting the Report in one sense as a package deal, the package is clearly not very tightly tied, and that there will be opportunity for modifying the contents,
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and perhaps even for abstracting some of the objects contained in the parcel and surreptitiously substituting others. Nevertheless, sweet reasonableness is not exactly the same thing as reason, and I hope that I may be allowed to make a few comments upon the proposals of the Royal Commission, more particularly from the angle of their rationality.
The work of the Royal Commission may be viewed from two angles: on the one hand, from within the profession; and, on the other, from outside in terms of the general professional and wage and salary structure of the country as a whole. From within the profession the effect of the recommendations will be, as was pointed out by my noble friend Lord Taylor, to widen the spread of incomes. It will be not to make the spread as wide as it was in the golden age described by the noble Lord, Lord Cohen of Birkenhead, but to make it appreciably wider than it has been in recent years. That we deprecate. We have welcomed in recent years that one of the main contributions to the National Health Service, so far as the medical profession is concerned, has been to narrow the spread of medical incomes. We welcome this, partly because, in the view of those who sit on these Benches, it is good in itself, and partly because it has particular merit perhaps in relation to the medical profession.
To us it is good in itself because it is a factor which has changed the face of England and made us a much more united and less socially separate community, and because it is one of the outstandingly valuable trends of the last half century. The narrowing of the great gap between the largest and the smallest incomes has been one of the things which has made this, though not yet an equalitarian community, at least one in which we are not separated by unbridgeable gulfs; and we regret new trends which are likely to widen those gulfs again. Those whose minds are indeed set on the things of this world can, of course, take a hint from the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Cohen of Birkenhead, and convert their attention rather to wise investment than to the practice of medicine; and I think it is common observation that opportunities for wise investment have not been deficient in recent years. Also, from the angle of the

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profession, the noble Lord, Lord Moran, spoke with great eloquence about incentives, and he quoted, somewhat surprisingly, as an authority—not that he needed authority to support his views—the observations of Mr. Khrushchev.
Incentives are obscure motivations, and I have during this afternoon been wondering more than once what can be the incentive which, for instance, has caused me to expose myself at much shorter range than usual to the shafts of which I already have experience to be directed at me by the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald. I do, however, take courage in facing these shafts that are to come (which remind me of one of the lions of the noble Lord, Lord Teviot) by seeing that this afternoon's occasion is unusual in more ways than one, and that I have support such as I could not have anticipated in the really exceptional constitution of the Official Box. This has been, may I say, a great consolation to me in my very exposed position.
It is rot for me to say much about incentives in the medical profession. After listening to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Moran, and after reading with great care the evidence that he gave before the Royal Commission, I can only say that I, like others, have been enormously impressed by the Dare and skill with which he and his colleagues have discharged their almost impossible task, in assessing, not merit, nor responsibility, as the noble Lord, Lord Cohen of Birkenhead, has reminded us, but distinction. I find myself wondering whether, even in the distinguished medical profession, we could rely through the ages upon a full supply of Lord Morans who would be equal to a task so arduous.
As I listened to this description and read his evidence, I could not but feel that there was much to be said for the view which the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, put forward; that, after all, in all occupations there are grades. We are accustomed to promotions—the Royal Commission itself recognised this—and that perhaps even among consultants there might be some form of differential which did not involve these extraordinarily elaborate inquiries and this, as I must now say, "façade" of secrecy. Study of the mechanism by which distinction awards are now arrived at certainly encourages the view that the right solu-
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tion would be to amalgamate these—at any rate at the lower levels, the B and C awards—into the salaries of the appropriate consultant grades. That view is, I think, strengthened by the discovery, as the noble Lord, Lord Cohen of Birkenhead, remarked, that there are, after all, degrees of secrecy.
I think, too, that the spread of incomes which the Royal Commission encourage is to be deprecated particularly from the point of view of the profession, in so far as it does to some extent favour the view, which I have heard expressed by medical students, that general practice is something of a "second order" section of the profession. That seems to me to be most strongly to be deprecated, and anything that makes the young medical student feel that general practice is the mark of the man who has not succeeded in the best sense in his profession is surely a disaster for medical practice. Surely general practice should rate at least as high in public esteem—and that is closely associated with money—as the more specialised branches of medicine.
On the subject of incentives in general practice, I need hardly add to the delightful picture drawn by the noble Lord, Lord Cohen of Birkenhead. It can be summed up by saying that differential payments, as he pointed out, already occur, possibly in the wrong way, but certainly in some way, as the statistics show. To make them happen in a more rational way might be desirable, but appears to be plainly impossible. May I remind your Lordships of the qualities which the British Medical Association told the Royal Commission must be found in the general practitioner? Not only must he have high educational standards, but he must also be able to act as a guide, philosopher and friend to his patients. He must be a good mixer; he must be equally at home—an unusual gift—with all classes of society, and he must have the full confidence of his patients. He must also be a profound student of human nature and possess immense reserves of mental and physical stamina.
All that, my Lords, is only too true. But words fail to describe the qualities of the man who would be able to differentiate the degree in which different general practitioners possess this astonishing and laudable collection of admirable qualities. Surely, if we are going

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to differentiate, the evidence that appears in the Royal Commission's Report indicates where differentiation is called for. As the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, pointed out, it is the old doctor, the elderly dentist and the young doctor whose needs are, clearly, most inadequately met. Above all, the need emerges to cut down the lists of doctors who are trying, for reasons of their own financial situation, to cope with far more work than they themselves feel they can adequately discharge.
So much for within the profession. I should like now to turn for a few moments to the wider aspects of this Commission's Report. First, may I say how grateful we are for the evidence which the Commission have produced for the first time about relative professional earnings in this country? This we may study with continual profit, and there are many lessons to be drawn from it. Some of us may sigh that at a younger age we did not think of taking up the profession of actuary, which seems to occupy a uniquely valuable position in the professional hierarchy in this country. All of us will draw the conclusion (which I am sure would distress those who sit upon the now vacant Episcopal Benches) that the service of Mammon in this world is a great deal more rewarding than the service of God. We shall note such incidental facts as that the top-line consultant, with the top distinction award, normally earns about two and half times as much as the head of a large grammar school. We can draw many other similar comparisons, comparisons which remind me of some studies that I myself made some years ago, and which are perhaps no less illuminating. Some years ago, when investigating comparative incomes in this country, it came to my attention that the salary which I was then earning as a university teacher happened to be exactly the same as the income which was earned by the larger elephant in Whipsnade by giving rides to children.
Much of the material which the Royal Commission have produced—material about professional incomes—appears to me to have about as much, or as little, rational justification as that particular personal comparison. But we learn with great distress that this informaton, which has been laboriously gotten, is not to be
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made more readily available in future and in a more comprehensive form. We cannot but ask ourselves: Why this secrecy? Why this immense diffidence? In my experience, and, I think, in the experience of most of us, there is only one other subject upon which a comparable secrecy prevails to that which invests the discussion of income.
In regard to that other subject, since the publications of Dr. Freud there has been a considerable relaxation of the secrecy, and topics are now discussed with a degree of frankness which would have astonished our parents, still more our grandparents, if not ourselves in our younger days. But no similar progress seems to be made in the matter of income, and on this occasion it is surely wrapping the pall of secrecy rather tightly if we are not to be allowed to hear not of individual incomes but even information about aggregated incomes; so that hereafter when the Review Body (about which I wish to speak in a moment) comes to discharge its functions, it will have to discharge them, like the Royal Commission, with only such information as it can itself, perhaps rather hastily gather together. If we may take an analogy from that other sphere, the psychiatrists will tell us, I think, that our reluctance to discuss certain subjects is nearly always associated with a conscious, or more probably unconscious, sense of guilt. Is it because we are guilty that we have too much money or is it because of shame that we have too little money that we are so reluctant to let it be known what in fact we have?
We thank the Royal Commission for collecting so laboriously this new and fascinating evidence, but as we turned their pages we waited breathlessly to read their discussion of its significance; and, astonishingly, no discussion followed. The evidence was set out, the figures were paraded in tables, and we anticipated that the Commission would point out the laborious and dangerous nature of the actuaries' duties which would explain their relatively high position in the table, and the easy routine character of the schoolmaster's duty which would explain his relatively humble position—not in the table but hidden away in the Appendix. No such discussion followed. The Royal Commission told us that they had considered all the factors which differentiate

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these various professions but that they were unable to share with us their meditations on this subject. They then turned the page and came out with the ex cathedra statement, with which we do not disagree, that doctors' earnings are too low.
This seems to me to be the central significance of this Report: the central fact about it is that it is operating in a complete vacuum, and there it is not alone. It expresses a trend which you will find pervades a great deal of the negotiations and determinations of wages and salaries to-day. As the noble Lord, Lord Cohen of Birkenhead, said, the Royal Commission did not argue their case, for the reason that the problem which they were set was, in fact, insoluble. There is one possible solution, and that was the solution which Professor Jewkes adopted in his Minority Report. It is the solution of the straight-forward economist, that when you are asked to determine what is the proper remuneration of any calling you ask yourself what is necessary in order to attract suitable persons into that cdling—the good old rule of demand and supply.
The Royal Commission rejected this out of hand. They satisfied themselves that in the light of the Willinck Committee's investigations there was, at any rate for the near future, an adequate supply of doctors coming forward for training. A harsh and ruthless economist would have drawn the conclusion that the pay of doctors must therefore also be adequate. But the Royal Commission, discarding thereby the whole of economic learning, blandly took the view that this meant that there was no relevance in the conditions of supply, and they dismissed it out of hand. Nor did they substitute any alternative criterion. A possible alternative criterion might have been a careful job analysis of the conditions of work of occupations that might compare with that of a doctor. Probably it was prudent that they should not do so because, as has been said this afternoon, it might well be argued that the work of clergymen, or I might perhaps add probation officers, is very likely the nearest thing we have to the work of the doctors. Perhaps wisely the Royal
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Commission did not collect evidence about salaries of probation officers and therefore did not quote the fact that the maximum salary of a probation officer is something considerably less than half the average earnings of the underpaid general practitioner. They did, however, collect some information about the earnings of ministers of religion of various denominations; but that they quietly put in the Appendix where it would not attract perhaps so much attention as the tables in their text.
Having abandoned economics and having abandoned work comparability, the Royal Commission were left, as I say, in a vacuum. So what we have to recognise is that the hierarchy of the profession as it stands is really an expression of social conventions and an expression also of the values which are recognised and esteemed in our society. Even the choice of occupations which are described as professions is itself a purely conventional choice. The dentist who takes teeth out of heads has professional status. The hairdresser who puts curls on to heads does not. So one could continue. It is a conventional list of occupations, and the grading within this list undoubtedly expresses the attitude of mind of the community. I think there is little doubt that in this community as a whole if the fear of death were less lively and the expectation of immortality more confident, there would be some disturbance of the relative positions of the clergyman and the doctor. But let that pass.
We have these conventions, but we make no discussion of them. And the result is that we are gradually committing ourselves to an astonishing rigidity in the pattern of remuneration in this country. So long as we have abandoned the criterion of demand and supply, so long as we do not face the discussion of any alternative social measurement or grading, there is nothing to fall back on but that we should maintain the relative positions of everybody as far as possible; that is to say that we should set the stamp of eternity on the particular pattern of remuneration which happens to prevail to-day, and that this should acquire a rigid permanence surpassing even that which apparently pertains to the policy of Her Majesty's Government in the matter of pictorial

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stamps. Here we have the supreme example of conservatism in our time.
There is one point in the Royal Commission's Report—one rather ominous remark—in which the Commissioners express their awareness that their Report may have repercussions upon other professions: but that, they say, with justification, is none of their business. Certainly it was none of their business. But the medical profession having pulled itself up in this table, other persons will, by definition, relatively fall down, and surely it is somebody's business to sort out whether the old relativities must immediately be restored: whether we are going to commit ourselves, first, to extreme rigidity and, secondly, to a kind of situation of competitive inflation which we have known very well from the past. So I would ask that if we are going, as apparently we are, moving from profession to profession, to set up Review Bodies of wise men, we should give those bodies some kind of guidance.
The Royal Commission suggested that the Review Body would, in general terms, have regard to recruitment, that it would have regard to changes in the cost of living and that it would have regard to earnings in other professions. It did not say what kind of regard—just "have regard". It did not indicate, or attempt to evaluate, the factors which the Review Body would need to take into account. In fact, we are contemplating that the Review Body, which we are very glad to welcome as a step forward, is itself to work like the Royal Commission, in a complete vacuum, unless Her Majesty's Government are prepared to give some thought to the shape of remuneration as a whole, and some guidance as to the modifications in the present pattern which they would wish to see.
The Review Body was ostensibly modelled on the Coleraine Committee which followed upon the Royal Commission on the Civil Service, but I think that here there has been some confusion. I had the honour to be a member of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service, and perhaps I may claim some small part in devising the machinery which now governs changes in Civil Service wages and salaries. The Coleraine Committee is concerned not with the salaries of civil servants but
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with the salaries of a small group of higher civil servants—namely, those who under the old procedure would have been outside the range of the arbitration procedure. The reasons for making this special provision were primarily that there might be something undignified in civil servants who have to advise their Ministers also, so to speak, taking their Ministers to arbitration on salary questions, and that equally it would be embarrassing to advise the Minister about one's own salary, particularly if that salary compared rather favourably with the salary that the Minister himself enjoyed. Therefore these delicate duties were devolved upon the body of wise men who sit under the wise guidance of the noble Lord, Lord Coleraine. But the Royal Commission suggested this select body to operate only at the top of the Civil Service.
May I remind your Lordships that for civil servants as a whole the Royal Commission made another proposal which has also been carried into effect—namely, that some steps should be taken to make objective comparisons between the work of a civil servant and work in comparable fields outside, and that in determining the scales of wage and salary an exhaustive analysis both of the content of work and of rates of pay should be undertaken. In fact that has been done with surprisingly good results. But no such guidance is given to the Review Body for the medical profession. It has not been charged with the duty of making any comparison between the work of various kinds of doctors and the work of other persons, either in auxiliary medical callings, like the nurses, for whom the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, put in so kind a word, or in other fields. As I say, the Review Body is left like the Royal Commission, in a vacuum, unless and until Her Majesty's Government are prepared boldly to step into that vacuum and to fill it.
In that position one can only suppose that they will feel very much as the doctor pictured by the noble Earl, Lord Dundee. Faced with the problem of dealing with many hundreds, indeed thousands, of patients, the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, suggested that anyone less gifted than our doctors would be inclined either to go mad or to acquire supernatural wisdom. Those were the alternatives that faced him. Those, too, will be the alternatives

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that face the Review Body, as far as we can see; and, faced with these alternatives, it looks as if they might fall back on one third possibility, namely, that of extreme conservatism, which means running as fast as we possibly can in order that we may all stay in the same relative places.
6.47 p.m.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, my first and entirely delightful duty is to congratulate my noble friend—as, indeed, I hope she is in everything but the narrowest political sense—Lady Wootton of Abinger, on being the first noble Lady to decorate either Dispatch Box in your Lordships' House; and not merely for doing so, but for the manner in which she has done it, and it gives me an opportunity to say in this House, without fear of any contradiction, that we in this House have become very proud of our noble Ladies—in fact we would back them in brains and charm against the ladies of any other place.
My Lords, the Royal Commission began their general observations upon their work with these words:
"We were appointed nearly three years ago to carry out a task which was then expected to be simple, and short. It has turned out to be neither."
After spending the Easter Recess in a laborious study of that task, once performed, it defeats me entirely how anybody could ever have expected it to be simple or short. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, upon whose Motion we are now debating this Report, had the kindness to write to me in Scotland to say that he hoped that I was enjoying a splendid holiday. From anyone else's benevolence I might have taken this to be a cruel piece of irony, because if he has any measure of my conscientiousness he must have known how my days, indeed into the late evenings, were being spent.
But that is in no sense a reflection upon the style or content of the Report. In common with the noble Lord, Lord Taylor and other noble Lords, I found the style to be clear and readable throughout. The amount of detail incorporated in its 450 paragraphs, 11 chapters, 8 appendices and 57 tables, is enough to cause a permanent headache to anyone not intimately familiar with medical and dental practice. It was of no comfort to me, I am afraid, on my
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return to your Lordships' House yesterday morning, that the first person I saw in the entrance was the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, clear-eyed and jaunty, evidently having taken this massive document in his stride; and I am afraid that it is no good his telling me this afternoon how much he is enjoying this work in this House.
However, it is now my task to "argue the toss" with the noble Lord in respect of certain of his comments and conclusions on, the Report. This is never a simple engagement, partly due to the noble Lord's modus operandi in debate. His chosen methods are either to ask me questions in order to provide his own answers, sometimes noticeably inaccurate, which he always prefers to my accurate answers; or to invite my agreement to proposals which he knows I am bound to resist—all this done with such consummate charm and apparent innocence that at the end I am partly mesmerised into wondering whether it is not I who have been unfair to him—a flagrant impossibility.
My noble friend Lord Dundee hag explained, in his speech, that Her Majesty's Government have accepted the recommendations in the Report of the Royal Commission as they stand, provided that the doctors and dentists respectively, for their part, will accept them on the same basis. If at this point some Member of the Government should fall victim to the persuasive arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, and join in criticism of the Report, which I am sure I am in no sense desirous of doing, that would obviously prejudice the matter in its next stage—its discussion, and we hope acceptance, by the two professions.
Within the main edifice of the recommendations there are spaces where there is room to swing an interpretation and others where discussion still has to take place; and since both the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, asked for examples of these latter, I can give one or two. In the hospital service the arrangements for allowing extra payments to junior staff at peripheral hospitals, described in paragraph 293, have already been mentioned by my noble friend Lord Dundee. The fixed charges for board and lodging, mentioned in

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paragraph 292 have been referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, and, in the general medical service, the detailed arrangements for distributing the total amount of money which the Royal Commission recommend should be provided, as the Commission recognise, have always been settled direct and will continue to be so settled.
The Royal Commission themselves refer to various factors which they feel might be taken into account, but as my noble friend has said, there are many factors apart from these which will require to be studied jointly. For instance, complex questions arise in settling the relative weight to be given to capitation and other detailed fees within the overall total, and in both the general medical and the hospital services the detailed arrangements for distributing the back pay recommended by the Royal Commission, dealt with in paragraph 397, are also a matter for detailed consideration. For the rest, I am committed, I fear, to "argue the toss" and attempt to persuade the noble Lord that he is again wrong. My noble friend Lord Dundee has already referred to some of his proposals, and I will elaborate only on the very important matter of the Review Body. If the professions accept the offer made by Her Majesty's Government, and the Review Body is set up, the Government have undertaken—and this I must emphasise—to ensure that the professions are fully consulted upon that body's membership. They will also give a firm undertaking to pass on any recommendation made by the professions and to stress to the Review Body the importance attached by the professions to being able to present their case orally.
I am aware that doctors and dentists would prefer to be able, so to speak, to "press the button" themselves to set this machinery in action, but some doctors are not happy that any "monopoly employer" as the noble Lord, Lord Moran, has called it, should be within reach of the button. But that was not among the recommendations of the Royal Commission, and it is not favoured by the Government as a unique privilege for the medical profession. The recommendations, as accepted, contain acceptance of the exclusion of doctors and dentists in the composition of this body; and
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as those who have read the Report will know, the Commission gave most careful thought to the composition and functions of the body, which they visualise as being eminent and authoritative and, as such, being outside any implication of bias, either for or against the medical and dental professions. I could quote the views of the Commission on this point, stated in paragraph 430 of the Report, but I feel that at this hour it is better not to take up your Lordships' time.
I have spoken to doctors on the subject, and I may say that they were more vehement than I could have thought possible, and certainly more vehement than I am prepared to be in contradicting the views of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor. The burden of their argument was that the position of these professional delegates on the Review Body would be quite intolerable; that they would be blamed by their colleagues for every failure to act as a body as a whole or to act as the bulk of the profession—
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I am perfectly happy to accept that, provided that some technical advice is available to the Review Committee. It seems to me that the place where the Royal Commission fell down was in the lack of available technical advice; and because they did not know the facts they sometimes went off the rails. That is really the situation. Equally, one hopes that what is sauce for the goose will be sauce for the gander, and that when legal aid fees come to be determined that will not be done by the legal profession.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, the noble Lord has made his point keenly and I have no doubt it will be taken into account. With regard to the provision of financial data to the Review Body, with which my noble friend Lord Dundee has dealt, Her Majesty's Government are satisfied that it would not be practicable for the Inland Revenue to provide the Review Body with the information they require. We are satisfied that that Body should be able to obtain the information they need by other means; and, as my noble friend has said, they will be given all possible help in this pursuit.
It must be very fortifying for Professor Jewkes, as it would be for anyone, to know that he is now joined in his isolation by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, and

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that they now stand shoulder to shoulder on the same grounds of criticism; but I still think, in all fairness, that the noble Lord is suggesting, loyally, that his ally is alone in arguing the case properly in desiring a reasonable figure for general practitioner remuneration. But the fact is that Professor Jewkes's approach to this problem is different from that of the rest of the Commission. Professor Jewkes is in favour of giving general practitioners an increase related to changes in living standards since their pay was last fixed. This is what might be called "back to Sports" line. The Commission point out that a great variety of factors are relevant in considering changes in pay, and here again I could quote paragraph 425, but I feel I should spare your Lordships any further quotations from the Report, with which you will be familiar. It is hard to describe the conclusions in the Report as being "out of the hat". The difference between the Report of the Commission and the Jewkes memorandum of dissent is a measure of the difference in view on the weight to be attached to the relevant considerations.
The noble Lords, Lord Taylor and Lord Moran, are together in wishing to see, concurrent with the implementation of the Report, an immediate reduction of local practitioners' lists to a maximum of 3,000, and, frankly, I should find it extremely hard and less enjoyable than usual to argue upon this point. But in fact it is not an argument which enters into this debate, and the Commission themselves, after some thought, considered it to be a question outside their competence. The truth of that can be seen from the terms of reference which are described at the top of page 1, at the start of the Report. The arguments and their recommendations are in a form which would allow for such a change. They have put in nothing in the way of a change beyond advice that if the maximum were reduced the spread of income should be affected as little as possible, that earnings of established practitioners should not be substantially reduced and that care should be taken not to prejudice the payment of adequate salaries to assistants. The question of list size, therefore, would become a matter for discussion in detail, as part of the consideration of the distribution of the pool, supposing—as we
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hope—that the recommendations of the Royal Commission were accepted by the professions.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, the noble Lord is making an important statement and saying, in fact, that the list size will be one of things which is and should be discussable.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, it is a matter which is discussable, and for that reason it would not be wise for me to say anything more upon it at this point, as the noble Lord will appreciate.
The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, who has explained that he cannot be present, has urged that travelling expenses for full-time consultants should be as advantageous as those for part-time consultants. He has, as one would expect, made a clear and powerful case for this, and I shall naturally pass it on to my right honourable friend. I was not aware (though I am sure he is right) that they did not receive travelling expenses for conferences. The question is dealt with, in fact, in paragraph 210 of the Report, and as the noble Lord will have seen, the recommendation at the moment is to reduce the advantage of part-time specialists in the matter of travelling expenses, so I cannot promise what will happen to the noble Lord's suggestion that those full-time consultants travelling from their home to their normal place of work should be compensated for doing so. It would give them, it seems to me, a rare privilege among professional men. The recommendation about part-timers will become another matter for detailed discussion with the profession if they accept the Government's offer.
The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, also mentioned domiciliary visits, and the present position there is that in the case of whole-time officers no consultation fee is paid for the first eight domiciliary visits in any quarter of the year. The concession that whole-time officers should be paid for any visits was made by agreement on Committee B of the Whitley Council in 1955. In paragraph 211 the Royal Commission recommend that no change should be made in the current arrangements or in the level of fees paid. I am afraid that this is one of the things which would have to be accepted as part of the package deal.

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My noble friend Lord Auckland mentioned the situation of locums, and here I am afraid I cannot give him very much happiness. The Royal Commission recommended locum rates in detail; the changes are in Table 42 on page 100, and he will find there has been an increase. This is a recommendation going to make up the Report which the Government have accepted as a whole.
We come to the vexed problem of distinction awards. A great deal of what the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, had to say was dealt with by my noble friend. But I am bound to say from my own investigations in the past fortnight that there is—and I think this is a matter for some criticism—no wide understanding among doctors of the way Lord Moran's Committee in fact operates. It took the noble Lord, Lord Moran, I noticed, a considerable time—most of the day—to explain it to the Royal Commission, as is seen from the Minutes of Evidence; and I am not sure that I was able to grasp it in the course of those Minutes, or even from his very succinct description to-day. It is a matter of immense complication, but I am happy to hear from all sides of the House the admiration which has been expressed for the way he has carried out that difficult work.
But this concerns the matter of career prospects, and in this matter I found in my study of the Report that time after time I was stepping out of the territory of Pilkington and into the territory of Platt. I do not know whether other noble Lords had a similar experience. The Platt Committee, whose work we are not discussing and cannot discuss in detail to-day, is concerned with staffing problems. But it was put to me by more than one young doctor to whom I spoke that Pilkington is buying time while Platt will go to the core. Although I believe this not to be true, it seems to me that the work of these two bodies is closely interrelated. We cannot hope for a healthy medical profession unless young doctors are keenly interested in, and are hopeful about, their career prospects. The Royal Commission were not set the task of coping with over-crowding at the top or of providing posts. But it would be small comfort, I should think, to a senior
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registrar to know that a consultant's job was to be better paid than ever before yet would remain as inaccessible as ever.
In this connection I have had described to me the three separate streams within the National Health Service: the hospital service, general practice and public health service; and I was told, as an outsider, that it is extremely difficult to cross from one stream to another, or at least to join it at anything like the same point of advancement. But what I have also learnt is that in certain regions there are plans for an interchange of registrars with assistants in general practice, so that each can have an opportunity of experience in the field of the other. This seems to me an entirely good thing, and one can hope, I think, that arrangements of this sort will prosper and multiply. Until that happens, I should think, for instance, that if a registrar were to find when he was ready to become a consultant that the number of applicants so far outnumbered the number of posts available that he had little hope, he would undoubtedly feel frustrated and discouraged if there were no means of entering general practice except as an assistant earning little more than half the existing salary. I learn that this is a true picture. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, is in a far better position to know; but if he confirms it and if this encouragement from this Bench from one, however unimportant, connected with the Minister of Health is something to encourage such doctors, I am glad to give him that small comfort.
Concern has also been expressed in the matter of secrecy in these awards. In the course of a notional week not long ago, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, sought diligently to break my security by a series of Parliamentary Questions. I am happy to say that he was less successful than the noble Lord, Lord Cohen of Birkenhead, appears to have been. Lord Cohen of Birkenhead did not get his information from me.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I was not seeking to break the noble Lord's security. I did not want to know who has any merit awards. I was trying to get some ordinary statistics out of him.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, it seemed to me as if the carefully placed

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Questions of the noble Lord were designed to focus on a certain type of consultant, and from certain Answers the noble Lord, with his brilliant mind, could have found the answer to the question which he was not openly, I agree, asking.
I am by no means deaf towards arguments against secrecy, but on the whole I think I yield to the arguments in favour. I should have thought it was bound to be invidious for most of the 66 per cent. remaining without an award, and in general practice it would certainly cause some bitterness of feeling. I am not going into the question of general practice; I mentioned it as an aside. Perhaps I may be permitted to illustrate this with a brief analogy which some noble Lords might find fanciful and others tantalising. Let us suppose that the noble and learned Viscount who normally sits on the Woolsack, or his deputies, had the same powers as the noble Lord, Lord Moran, and his Committee have of awarding at the end of a Session distinction awards for the best speeches of that Session. Without any question whatever, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, would be in receipt of an A-plus and nobody would resent that. However, some noble Lords, with greater pretensions to the stature of the noble Lord, finding themselves in the outer 66 per cent., might well feel that they were hard done by. When it is brought home I myself feel that more doctors would be resentful and hurt and ashamed than would be pleased by a change in this system.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I think that the noble Lord is treading on dangerous ground. We might all be against merit awards in those circumstances—I know I should. The suggestion is that secrecy should be done away with only for the top awards, the small group of people whose merit I think everybody would agree with and which should be very properly and reasonably publicly acclaimed.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, the noble Lord may be right. As I say, he knows infinitely more about the medical profession than I do. But it is not noticeable that jealousy decreases at the top of a profession; and I should not think myself, looking in from outside, that that was entirely inevitable.
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I said that I would not mention merit awards to general practitioners, but I will mention them to the extent of reminding noble Lords that implementation of the Report does not depend upon the acceptance of this recommendation. Although I sympathise with the idea of the extra payment to doctors over 50, put forward by the noble Lord, and supported by other noble Lords, I must point out that the whole idea of merit which was emphasised by Lord Cohen of Birkenhead would have to be abandoned. I cannot see how, under the present provisions, the half million pounds could be diverted to a completely different purpose.
My noble friend Lord Teviot spoke of dentists, and I took it from my knowledge of him that he was going to attack the Report on the way it treated dentists over their remuneration. He did not do so; and therefore my speech, aimed at attempting to persuade him, is somewhat vainly composed. However, for the benefit of the Record, I will say that although at first sight it appears that dentists have had a raw deal—indeed, my noble friend Lord Auckland seemed to think so—in fact there is no real question of members of the Royal Commission and of the Government getting some of their own back at one "swipe" for those hours of openmouthed agony in the dentist's chair. There is one other thing on which I can satisfy my noble friend, Lord Teviot: that is, that dental consultants in hospitals are in receipt of merit awards; and in fact there is a sub-committee of Lord Moran's Committee which deals with their cases.
My Lords, I should like to give a brief outline of the situation of dentists since the Commission began to sit, in explanation of their treatment in the Report. The Spens Committee estimated that dentists could work properly 1,500 hours in a year at the chairside—that is to say, excluding the time spent on book-keeping, case notes, and other professional activities. Their remuneration is therefore reckoned on that assumption, built up from items of service and from the time each item of service might take. For example, one small filling, in times of minutes, was, I believe, 25 minutes. The Royal Commission discovered that, instead of 1,500 hours per annum, the average dentist is working 2,050 to 2,200 hours per annum. Moreover, into this 2,200 hours he is getting more items of

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service than was thought possible by the Spens Committee, even had they based their estimate on 2,200 hours. This is due to modern machinery, especially the high-speed drill, which enables a dentist to work faster; and the result has been that, even though dentists are entitled to a rise in theory, they have in point of fact caught up with that rise in practice, and might even gain a longer lead as still more modern instruments are introduced. These facts emerge from the Report, and the advantage in pay to the young dentist over the young doctor is emphasised on page 130.
My Lords, I now come to the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abingor; and here, as once before, I am in a difficulty. As I informed her then, I would far rather march under her banner than watch it go by without me; and to shy bricks at it, even if they are intended to miss, would be unthinkable. But to-day I am an admitted onlooker, and a minor critic. I may have read more into her words than I should have done, but it seemed to me that the noble Baroness considers that the system of wage and salary fixing is untidy. Both in theory and by desire I am tidy myself, although incurably and, I am afraid, noticeably untidy in practice: but democracy itself is an untidy system compared to dictatorship, and I am sure that both the noble Baroness and I would prefer untidiness in those terms.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, if the noble Lord would forgive me, I think he is putting the word "untidy" into my mouth. I am not aware of having used it.
LORD ST. OSWALD: No. I am not attempting to quote the noble Baroness: I am paraphrasing her, albeit badly.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: If the noble Lord will allow me to say so, what I intended to convey was that I thought it was socially undesirable, which is rather different.
LORD ST. OSWALD: Then I paraphrased her wrongly, and I am sorry. I am happy to learn, incidentally, that she does not disapprove of untidiness. However, the noble Baroness seemed to me (I may be wrong here, though, again, I am not attempting to quote her, but am paraphrasing) to be posing the question:
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how, in this complicated world, can we decide how much should be paid to whom for what? Her contention appears to me to be that wages and salaries are settled industry by industry, job by job, and that nobody attempts to look at the picture as a whole or to bring the whole thing into focus.
I have also read her words in a most impressive and reasoned article in which she questioned
"the extreme sanctity which now attaches to collective bargaining"
and also questioned the credo that it is unwise to interfere with any collective bargain that anybody chooses to make. Under a dictatorship, an employer can be told what he will pay and an employee can be told what he will work for, though that may not be what the employer is prepared to pay or what the employee is willing to work for, which is what we aim at in collective bargaining. Under the political system in which we live, I should have thought that there surely had to be some overwhelming reason of public policy to justify any intervention from outside, or any introduction of a fixed theory. It would certainly be very difficult to justify such an intervention on a theory that some authority of infinite eminence knew what people ought to be paid for their work.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, will the noble Lord forgive me for interrupting once more? I should not like to have the inference drawn that some regulation of the pattern of remuneration necessarily involves dictatorship. If the noble Lord would devote his attention to what has happened in Sweden and Holland, I think he would find that in those very undictatorial countries some such overall control is exercised.
LORD ST. OSWALD: I was not drawing the inference that the noble Baroness has suggested; I was merely saying that in a dictatorship some regulation would be easy to introduce, whereas in our system it would be very hard to introduce—and, I think, pretty unpopular. I think there does not seem to be much wrong in the theory that the parties themselves know best what the employers will pay and what the employees will be content to work for. Is the noble Baroness affirming that there ought to be at least a single set of criteria by which

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the validity of any pay claim could be judged? I personally cannot imagine that any modern Solomon could obtain agreement to the various fractions or degrees of x, one against the other, which would add up to this touchstone: for example, exposure to danger, skill, experience, scarcity—all in turn measured for wage purposes against the economic capacity of an industry, or of industry as a whole. In the debate on economic affairs last night my noble friend Lord Mills mentioned in three or four instances the importance of price stability to the whole economy of a country such as ours, and that would have to be counted in as well.
I should have thought that one thing on which employers and employees would always agree is that no single standard of absolute value of job A as compared with job B exists or is obtainable. The facts affecting it are not limited to what the noble Baroness called "the good old rule of supply and demand." Custom, expectation, and even human prejudice, all enter into the conception of fairness; and I, for one, am driven back upon the conclusion that it is, quite simply, the essence of what people, for one reason or another, will agree to accept without being ordered to from outside. A definition or yardstick of fairness imposed from outside would, I think, be far more likely to start a whole series of disputes, than to end the present one, as a definition so often does.
This has been a most interesting and deeply informed debate. It has fallen to me to wind up, from a knowledge of the subject deepened by that of the majority of noble Lords who have taken part. At least, I can say that I am among those who are wiser than when the debate began. To assist my education in the subject, I took out of the Library some days ago this book. Its condition reveals either that it has been read by a great many people or that those who took it out treated it with some violence. I trust that it may be the former, because it has certainly helped me a great deal. As it has become fashionable in the course of this debate to end on a quotation, I propose to end by quoting from this book, this time in prose:
"The doctor's day has much in common with a military operation. It can peter out
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in a series of inconclusive actions and minor defeats; it can be carried through with exemplary efficiency, yet the purpose behind each activity may be missed, so that victory is never fully exploited; or it can march to completion with a full sense of satisfaction for both patient and doctor."
I hope that the recommendations of this Report and the Government's acceptance of them may encourage doctors to begin and later leave behind them the sort of life described in the concluding words of this passage.
7.20 p.m.
LORD MORAN: My Lords, in asking your Lordships' leave to withdraw this Motion, may I say a few words? The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, was speaking for the abolition of the A plus, B and C awards. The Evidence Committee, 50 in number and representing the whole profession; the Spens Committee; the British Medical Association, both the Council and the Representative Meeting; the Royal Commission, both Majority and Minority Reports; the three Royal Colleges and the Treasury—perhaps with the exception of the Treasury; I do not know what they have done—accept this scheme, and I think that a practical man would say that perhaps there is something in it.
My noble friend Lord Cohen of Birkenhead has generously said that his doubts are resolved and that he completely accepts it. I think that is very generous, for I know that for some time he doubted whether it was a practical scheme. I have been very much impressed, in going round a large number of schools, by what the masters have said about the difficulty of medicine competing in entry with engineering and science, and therefore I am not in a very receptive mood when the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, asks, "Are enormous incentives necessary?" and when the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, asks, "Should we not narrow the gap between large and small incomes?" Naturally, coming straight from this question to these political matters, I am not disposed to discuss whether the profit motive is going to go this year or next.
Again, when the noble Baroness says that the general practitioner should earn as much as the specialist, what strikes the practical mind is that the specialist must be kept on at medical school for

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ten or fifteen years, at a relatively low salary, while the general practitioner is making much more in practice. There is no Dean who does not realise that this is the case, and that it is necessary to make it financially possible, if the specialist is not to "do his family down". Again, when pleading that it might be possible—I am not asking any more than that—that general practitioners should have awards, I was pleading for a premium to be placed on good work. And suddenly, out of the blue, comes the suggestion that this money should be given in a subsidy of old age—a totally irrelevant remark. It is a good thing to subsidise old age, but that is not the question here.
My noble friend Lord Cohen of Birkenhead spoke interestingly on the giving of general practitioner awards. I am not certain that it can be done, but if it is practicable, it is enormously important that it should be done. I am not at all convinced that it cannot be, and I think that his suggestion that it might be narrowed from one in 23 to one in 4 or 5 might make it much more easy. At this late hour, I am sure your Lordships do not want to hear more. I should like to say how grateful I am for the nice remarks that noble Lords have made about the awards. For five or six years we have had nothing but abuse, so that the other kind of reception is welcome. I thank your Lordships and beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I do not intend to move the Motion standing in
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my name, but I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Moran, for initiating this interesting debate and the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, for the charming way in which he has wound it up.

SALFORD CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: the Orders made on the 24th February and the 12th instant discharged, and Bill committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee.
  GRANTS TO LIBYA
  GRANTS TO LIBYA