Sitting of 7 April 1960

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS
ESSEX COUNTY COUNCIL (FULLBREDGE, MALDON) BILL [Lords] (By Order)
Second Reading deferred till Tuesday, 26th April.
TYNE TUNNEL [MONEY]
Considered in Committee.
Resolved,
That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to authorise variations of the works authorised by the Tyne Tunnel Acts, 1946 and 1956, including the construction of new works, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any grant or advance by way of loan made by the Minister of Transport under or in pursuance of the said Act of the present Session.—[The Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Resolution to be reported.
Report to be received upon Monday next.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Agricultural Industry (Efficiency)
    Mr. Langford-Holtasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food by how much in the coming year he expects the agricultural industry will gain by increased efficiency; by how much this will be reduced by reduction of guarantees and increased cost; and what will be the reduced net income to the industry as a result of the 1960 Price Review.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. J. B. Godber): Only a
    534
    broad estimate can be made of the annual gain in efficiency, taking one year with another. In the Government's view, as stated in the recent Annual Review White Paper, the industry's efficiency continues to increase by at least £25 million a year for Review commodities. At the 1960 Review the net reduction in the guarantees, together with the increased costs, totalled about £22 million, leaving the industry with some £3 million of the estimated gain from increasing efficiency. The calculations cannot be exact, but the Annual Review determinations should enable the industry at least to maintain the present level of net income.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: Is my hon. Friend aware that it is the view of the National Farmers' Union that over the last five years the incomes of the agricultural industry, as opposed to other incomes, have decreased, and would he not agree that it is the responsibility of the House and his job to see that that does not arise?
    Mr. Godber: I know the claims made by the National Farmers' Union in regard to this point. It all depends, of course, upon the date from which one takes one's comparisons. I would not say that over the last five years incomes have, in fact, decreased. Over the last three years they have been maintained on a fairly high level on the adjusted to normal weather conditions. They are certainly higher than in the two previous years. I realise the views expressed by the farmers, but I think that the determinations which we made were fair and just.
    Mr. Willey: Has the hon. Gentleman forgotten that he gave me figures the other day which showed that the incomes had dropped 10 per cent. under the present Government, whichever figures we take?
    Mr. Godber: The figures to which the hon. Gentleman is referring are those adjusted to real terms, but in order to get the true picture of the incomes which farmers have at their disposal it must be remembered that a certain proportion of this is money used for capital investment, and in recent years the Government have been providing very considerable assistance outside the Price Review towards capital expenditure.

    Meat Inspection
    Mr. Scott-Hopkinsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in view of the present unsatisfactory position, he will take steps to ensure that councils can enforce a decision arrived at in open council to impose meat inspection charges on abattoirs within their rural district areas.
    Mr. Godber: My right hon. Friend is aware of the difficulties of meat inspection in some rural areas and is considering the problem, but I am not in a position at this stage to make a statement.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Will my hon. Friend remember that this is putting the local rural councils in an extremely difficult position because they are unable to enforce the inspection, as a result of which, apparently, a lot of meat throughout the whole country is going uninspected? Will my hon. Friend take steps to look at the matter again to see if he can find some method whereby he can give local authorities the power to impose inspection charges on the wholesale butchers?
    Mr. Godber: I realise that this is a difficult problem, particularly in certain areas, and I know that, especially in the South-West, there are special problems. My right hon. Friend is well aware of this. We are trying to find some way of dealing with the problem but, as I have said, I am not in a position to make a statement at this stage.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkinsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is yet in a position to increase the grants for travelling expenses for meat inspectors in rural areas; and if he will state the present position.
    Mr. Godber: No, Sir. It has not been found practicable to take into account any special local circumstances in applying this grant. It is based on the national average cost of meat inspection.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: As my hon. Friend is unable to accede to my request in my previous Question, will he look further at the question of giving grants in special cases to rural councils with a very small penny rate, so that they can once again get the meat inspected in their areas, which is impossible at the moment?
    536
    Surely the present state of affairs is against the national interest?
    Mr. Godber: I am aware of this problem, but I do not think it can be solved in this way. We have tried, by the introduction of these grants, to help over the country as a whole, and I am sure it has helped a great deal. As a result of this action, the percentage of meat inspected has increased very materially. As I indicated, my right hon. Friend is trying to find other ways of getting the whole matter settled. I am sorry that I cannot say anything further.
    Mrs. Slater: Could the hon. Gentleman say how soon he expects that the problem will be settled? In everybody's interests, all meat ought to be inspected and everything possible should be done to this end. Can the hon. Gentleman say how long we must wait before anything is done?
    Mr. Godber: I entirely agree with the hon. Lady about the need to inspect meat and I shall not be satisfied until this has been achieved. As I have indicated, there are special problems. I cannot set a time limit. I can only assure the hon. Lady that we are as anxious as she is to make progress.

    Seeds (Research and Development)
    Mr. J. Wellsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will take further steps to encourage agricultural seed research and development.
    Mr. Godber: The valuable work already being done on this subject at various scientific institutes appears to cover existing needs. If, however, there is any particular aspect which my hon. Friend has in mind, I should be glad to look into it.
    Mr. Wells: Can my hon. Friend give any indication of the possibility of introducing a copyright or patent for a limited number of years to help private firms going in for plant breeding and seed research?
    Mr. Godber: The question of protecting the plant breeder by a grant of rights is being considered by the Committee on Transactions in Seeds. My right hon. Friend expects to receive the Committee's report in the summer, and we shall be able to consider the matter then.

    Agricultural Support
    Sir J. Duncanasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the total estimated cost of agricultural support in Great Britain for 1960-61 divided between the implementation of price guarantees and production grants.
    Mr. Godber: The estimated cost of the Agricultural support subsidies in the United Kingdom for 1960–61 is £1505 million for the implementation of price guarantees and £102·3 million for farming grants and subsidies.

    Land (Sub-letting)
    Mr. Owenasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether, in order to avoid exploitation of the farming community, he will introduce legislation to prohibit the sub-letting of land, leased by foreign interests, at rents substantially higher than the leasehold price.
    Mr. Godber: My right hon. Friend has no reason to think that the transactions which I understand the hon. Member to have in mind give rise to the problems he describes. The leasing and sub-letting of land is a matter tor free negotiation between the parties concerned and my right hon. Friend sees no grounds on which he could intervene.
    Mr. Owen: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that some 6,000 acres of National Coal Board farmland in the County of Northumberland have been sub-let to a foreign interest at a rental of 26s. an acre and that this foreign interest has sub-let the land at 65s. an acre? This is surely a challenge to the business acumen of the National Coal Board, and is a matter of considerable local public concern. Will the Minister call for a report from the National Coal Board and place it in the Library, or institute a public inquiry into the transaction?
    Mr. Godber: I am not certain that the facts are as the hon. Member has stated them. I have seen a Press report which gives a somewhat different view of this matter. In any case, I do not think that this is a matter in which my Ministry can properly intervene. It is a matter between landlord and tenant, and I do not think it would be proper for my
    538
    Ministry to take any active part by intervening in the way in which the hon. Member suggests.

    Rosewarne Horticulture Experimental Station, Camborne
    Mr. Haymanasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what progress has been made in the acquisition of the additional land needed to complete the Rosewarne Horticulture Experimental Station, Comborne, Cornwall.
    Mr. Godber: Since this station was established in 1952, 5½ acres of adjoining land have been purchased. The question of further acquisitions has been under consideration from time to time, but I am not in a position to make any statement about this.
    Mr. Hayman: Will the Parliamentary Secretary take into account the fact that this station is doing exceedingly good work, that it is desirable that it should be extended to take in land adjacent to it. and will he do what he can to speed that transaction, subject only to not being required to pay an inordinate price for it?
    Mr. Godber: I am glad the hon. Member included the last few words in his supplementary question. He and I have discussed this matter, and there are problems. I am as anxious as he is to see some extension of this station, and I hope that we shall be able to achieve it.

    Cereals (Guaranteed Prices)
    Mr. Willeyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food his estimate of the reduction in the total value of the guarantees for the purposes of the 1960 Annual Price Review which will be effected by the reduction in the guaranteed prices for cereals.
    Mr. Godber: The reductions in the guaranteed prices for cereals represent a reduction of about £3 million in the total value of the guarantees as calculated for the purposes of the Annual Review.
    Mr. Willey: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that this shows that the muddle that the Government have got into over the subsidy policy is now making nonsense of agricultural

    539
    economic policy? Surely, in view of the possibility of the balance of payments difficulty this year, we ought not to be creating this savage disincentive to the growing of feeding stuffs here? On the contrary, we ought to be encouraging it.
    Mr. Godber: If that were what we were doing, I would agree with the hon. Member, but it is not. As to his suggestion that this is a savage disincentive, I would not interpret a cut of 3d. a cwt. in the price of barley, which is the main feeding stuff, as being a savage cut. I should have thought that, in view of the increase in yields that we are getting, barley is still a profitable crop to grow in the areas in which it is normally grown. I do not think this should be interpreted as a disincentive on the part of the Ministry.
    Sir J. Duncan: Would my hon. Friend agree that, instead of this being a savage disincentive, in total the estimates for this year add up to £263 million, which is an excess of £22 million over last year's estimates?
    Mr. Godber: Yes, I think my hon. Friend's figures are correct. There is certainly no question of a savage cut, and cereal growers will not be inhibited by what we have done.
    Mr. Willey: The declared purpose of the cut is to reduce production.
    Mr. Godber: No, I certainly would not agree that it is. That is not the intention. It is not said in the White Paper that we intend to decrease production. We want to see the production of cereals, particularly coarse grains, maintained.
    Mr. de Freitas: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, whatever the figures, the farmers' union in the county which we both represent is so critical of the Government's policy today that it has called for the resignation of the Minister of Agriculture, and that if the members of that union did not know and like the hon. Gentleman they would have coupled his name with this demand?
    Mr. Godber: I appreciate the implied compliment in the last part of the supplementary question, but any calls for the resignation of my right hon. Friend are most unfair in this context, from whatever quarter they come. The farmers of
    540
    Lincolnshire, who are friends of mine as well as of the hon. Member, have perhaps taken a somewhat jaundiced view at this stage, but when they have had a good harvest I hope they will look at the matter differently.

    Research Establishment, Aberdeen
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether any decision has yet been made on the future of the research establishment at Greyhope Road, Aberdeen.
    Mr. Godber: My right hon. Friend has been considering the future of the experimental factory at Aberdeen when the development work on dehydration comes to an end in March, 1961. He has come to the conclusion that the other research projects at present being pursued there do not justify him in retaining this establishment.
    The Government, in the meantime, are considering the suitability of the staff and premises for other activities.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Does my hon. Friend realise that this decision will cause grave disappointment, as a great deal of very valuable work has been done? Can he say what action has been taken by his Department to interest industry in making use of the research done by this Department? Is it not possible to give it future work to do?
    Mr. Godber: Certainly my right hon. Friend attaches very great importance to the work that has been achieved here. It is his feeling, though, that this work could be best carried on now by private enterprise, and that it could be developed and utilised effectively in that way. A great number of food manufacturing firms have already shown a lively interest in this development, and we shall try to keep them in touch with what is being done at Aberdeen as long as the station is maintained.
    Mr. T. Fraser: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in Scotland we have only 2·7 per cent. of all the research and development workers in Great Britain, and that any step which is taken by Her Majesty's Government to reduce that proportion is very much to be deplored?
    Mr. Godber: I note the hon. Gentleman's comment, but I did say in my

    541
    original answer that the Government are considering the suitability of the staff and premises for other activities.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: What will this closure mean in terms of unemployment? Will my hon. Friend again consider giving a new programme of work to this establishment, which undoubtedly has done very valuable work?
    Mr. Godber: It may be that some other effective use can be found, but not, I feel, in the fields for which my right hon. Friend is responsible. If unemployment should arise, of course, the transfer of staff will be given the most careful and sympathetic consideration.

    Grassland Utilisation (Committee's Report)
    Mr. Willeyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a further statement on the report of the Committee on Grassland Utilisation.
    Mr. Godber: My right hon. Friend is not quite ready to make a statement. Perhaps the hon. Member would put down a further Question after the Recess.
    Mr. Willey: I shall accept the Parliamentary Secretary's advice, but has he forgotten that his right hon. Friend, as long ago as last December, promised me an early statement in the new year?
    Mr. Godber: I admit freely that there has been delay and I apologise for it. It has been unavoidable and greater than my right hon. Friend had wished. Knowing the hon. Gentleman and his usual clemency, I am sure that he will not mind waiting another week or so.

    National Food Survey (Old-age Pensioners)
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the average income of old-age pensioners included in the latest published report of the National Food Survey Committee; and what proportion of that income was spent on food.
    Mr. Godber: In the National Food Survey, old-age pensioner households are defined as those dependent primarily on their pensions and are thus not a representative sample of retirement pensioners. In 1957, which is the last year
    542
    for which figures have been published, the average family income, as declared by the pensioners, was approximately £3 7s. 0d. per week or 45s. 6d. per head; and 56 per cent. of that sum was spent on food. The corresponding figures for 1958 were £3 18s. 0d., 53s. per head, and 50 per cent.
    Mr. Thomson: I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for those figures, but has he noticed the other figures which came from the Stock Exchange this morning showing that thousands of millions of pounds of tax-free capital gains have been made on the Stock Exchange since the election? Does he not feel that it is an affront to the conscience of the nation that, in circumstances like those, a substantial group of old-age pensioners should be counting the halfpennies for essential foodstuffs?
    Mr. Godber: I am not so closely in touch with the Stock Exchange as the hon. Gentleman appears to be. We on this side of the House are just as sympathetic as anyone else towards the needs and requirements of old-age pensioners, who are, of course, considerably better off now than they were when hon. and right hon Members opposite were in power.
    Mr. Willisasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will invite the National Food Survey Committee to conduct a nation-wide sampling survey into the weekly food budgets of old-age pensioner families in receipt of National Assistance supplementation.
    Miss Herbisonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what number of old-age pensioner families in Scotland included in the latest Report of the National Food Survey Committee were in receipt of National Assistance supplementation; what was the average income of such families; and how much of that income was spent on food.
    Mr. Millanasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what number of old-age pensioner families included in the latest Report of the National Food Survey Committee were in receipt of National Assistance supplementation; what was the average income of such families; and what proportion of that income was spent on food.
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT, from the data gathered by the National Food Survey Committee on the food budgets of old-age pensioners, a sample budget showing the weekly expenditure on food of a single old-age pensioner living on the basic pension plus National Assistance.
    Mr. Godber: The group of families mentioned in these Questions cannot be distinguished, since the National Food Survey does not separate pension supplements paid by the National Assistance Board from other income of old-age pensioner households. The questions on incomes are only incidental to the main purpose of the survey, and it would be impracticable to ask detailed questions on sources of income. The survey covers families of all types, and a special inquiry restricted to one section of the community would not make the best use of its resources.
    Mr. Willis: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the results produced by this survey are really based on much too narrow a set of criteria to give any real information about how pensioners live? Will he accept the invitation to try to obtain sufficient information about how the pensioner who is dependent upon his pension alone lives, in order that the House may be able to judge how pensioners are faring in this so-called prosperous era?
    Mr. Godber: We go to a good deal of trouble to get what information we can. This National Food Survey is a very big operation. If we tried to particularise more, I think it would be very difficult; already there is considerable delay in bringing the figures before the House, and matters would be even more delayed if we tried to go into more detail.
    Miss Herbison: In my Question I asked for Scottish figures. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of these old-age pensioners can have no help at all from their families in Scotland because, in so many cases, the wage earners in those families are themselves unemployed? Further, does he realise that in not trying to obtain more information about these old-age pensioners who have to have help through
    544
    supplementary assistance from the National Assistance Board he is doing a very great disservice to many thousands of old people in our country?
    Mr. Godber: I do not accept at all that we are doing a disservice in this way. We are putting before the House what information we can obtain, and it is very useful information in this respect. I apologise to the hon. Lady for not giving Scottish figures, but, of course, the facts are the same in regard to both Scotland and England, so far as we can see. I note her point about unemployment in Scotland, but that is not, of course, a matter on which I ought to comment.
    Mr. Millan: In a previous Answer, the Parliamentary Secretary said that about 50 per cent. of old-age pensioners' incomes was spent on food. Is he aware that in the official cost-of-living index the weighting for food is only 350 points out of 1,000, slightly more than a third? Does not this prove conclusively that the general cost-of-living index has no real relation to the cost of living of old-age pensioners? [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."] Will the hon. Gentleman convey that to his right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance and ask him to stop refusing the claims of pensioners on the ground of—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]— references to a cost of living which has no relation at all to the standard of living of old-age pensioners?
    Mr. Godber: So far as I could gather the hon. Gentlman's supplementary question, I think it covered matters very much outside the scope of my Department. I will convey his comments to my right hon. Friend.
    Mr. Lawsonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a few samples of the separate weekly food budgets of old-age pensioners upon which the National Food Survey Committee based its conclusions on the quantities and value of food consumed by old-age pensioners showing at the same time the total income of the sample households and the number of persons contained in each.
    Mr. Godber: I will, with permission, circulate these figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Lawson: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for the information he is to give us, but may I draw his attention particularly to certain results of the National Food Survey, where he will find that there is cause for very grave anxiety if the information is to be accepted as an indication of how old-age pensioners are living? Does he realise that the Report is based upon a sample of only 776 families out of the many millions of old-age pensioners in Britain and that, moreover, the income may be as much as £7 per head in each family, which is quite unrepresentative of the circumstances of old-age pensioners living on National Assistance supplementation? May we have information based on a grouping of people living on National Assistance supplementation?
    Mr. Gudber: I have already answered that point. If the hon. Gentleman studies the figures given in my Answer which will be circulated, he will, I think, find more information.
    Mr. Willey: Does the Parliamentary Secretary recognise that these figures are 1957 figures and we really ought to make efforts to obtain more up-to-date information? Why will he not accept that there is a good deal of concern about old-age pensioners and old people generally, and that there is a very good case for obtaining further information so that we can decide whether or not there ought to be a special index?
    Mr. Godber: The point I was trying to make earlier is really the reply to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. If we try to make these things more involved and complicated, we shall only delay the results further. I am sorry that there is this delay, but very complex calculations are involved and there is a tremendous amount of tabulation, which does take a great deal of time. If we seek to spread our net wider, we shall only delay matters more. I accept that there is concern about old-age pensioners and I have indicated that it is shared on both sides of the House at all times. We wish to see old-age pensioners given the best conditions possible. I have already indicated that the record of this Government is a good one in this respect.
    Following are the figures:

    AVERAGE DOMESTIC FOOD EXPENDITURE OF OLD-AGE PENSIONER HOUSEHOLDS, 1957

    —

    One man and one woman

    One woman only

    Number of households

    …

    270

    391

    Declared income per household

    …

    £4

    2s.

    £2

    13s.

    Pence per person per week

    Milk and cream

    …

    38·4

    46·0

    Cheese

    …

    6·8

    6·9

    Fats

    …

    21·8

    25·2

    Eggs

    …

    12·9

    14·7

    Carcase meat

    …

    50·5

    44·4

    All other meat

    …

    31·3

    36·2

    Fish

    …

    13·1

    13·6

    Fruit

    …

    15·6

    22·7

    Potatoes

    …

    10·1

    9·6

    Fresh green and other vegetables

    …

    12·2

    14·1

    Bread

    …

    20·9

    24·3

    Other cereal foods

    …

    24·2

    29·2

    Sugar and preserves

    …

    14·8

    17·0

    Tea

    …

    17·1

    21·5

    Other beverages and mis-cellaneous foods

    …

    10·0

    13·2

    TOTALS

    …

    25s.

    0d.

    28s.

    3d.

    NOTES:
    These figures for food expenditure relate to group averages of two different kinds of old-age pensioner households, which experience has shown to be typical. These are households comprising one man and one woman, and one woman living alone. The 116 different kinds of food have been reduced to 15 main categories.
    Dr. Dickson Mabonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the range of income found among the 776 old-age pensioner families included in the latest Report of the National Food Survey Committee.
    Mrs. Hartasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food the range of expenditure on food found among the 776 old-age pensioner families included in the latest Report of the National Food Survey Committee.
    Mr. Godber: While the particulars of weekly income and food expenditure enable satisfactory group averages to be estimated for a period of three months or a year, it would be misleading to quote extreme values which may be affected in any one week by unusual circumstances, such as the depletion or replenishment of larder stocks. More-

    547
    over, informants are assured that any information regarding individuals will not be disclosed without their consent.
    Dr. Mabon: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that many of us are very dissatisfied because we know that there is no sound statistical basis for the conclusions he draws in that and previous Answers on this subject? No one could make a generalised medical pronouncement, still less a social diagnosis, on such a basis. Will he be reasonable about the matter and accept that this study, if it is to be useful, must really be more extensive to make it a satisfactory basis for any deductions which may be derived from it?
    Mr. Godber: No, I would not accept those strictures. The National Food Survey gives a great deal of very useful information. This is not invalidated by the fact that I have been unable to give this specific information.
    Mrs. Hart: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the average, which is the figure given in the National Food Survey, can conceal a multitude of deficiencies in the diet of those old-age pensioners who come below the average? Will he not accept that it is a matter of considerable public concern that we should be assured that an adequate scientific investigation is made, of which we have the result, so that we may know how those old-age pensioners who fall below the average are living and how many of them there are?
    Mr. Godber: This is related to consideration of the food nutrition of the country as a whole, and this section dealing with old-age pensioners is valuable in so far as it goes. I do not pretend that it answers all the points raised by hon. Members opposite, but it gives a very fair indication.
    Mr. Willis: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Answers to these Questions, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Companies (Government-Appointed Directors)
    Mr. Albuasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the factors on consideration of which the Government appointed
    548
    directors to British Petroleum Company, Limited, Glanmorfa, Limited, North British Locomotive Company, Limited, S. G. Brown, Limited, National Cold Stores (Management), Limited, Re-commissioned Mills, Limited, British Sugar Corporation, Limited, Nedal (1954), Limited, British Field Products, Limited, Short Brothers and Harland, Limited, S.B. (Realisations), Limited, Scottish Diatomite, Limited, and Power Jets (Research and Development), Limited, respectively.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sir Edward Boyle): Various considerations have influenced the Government of the day in deciding to appoint directors to these companies— including the needs of defence, the interests of consumers at large, or the fact that the Government either owned the companies or made significant contributions to their financing.
    Mr. Albu: Can the hon. Member say whether these principles apply when the Government give consideration to whether or not to appoint directors to companies in which they have substantial financial interests?
    Sir E. Boyle: If the hon. Member has a particular case in mind, perhaps he would write to me about it.

    Bank Notes
    Mr. Stodartasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will initiate discussions with a view to introducing legislation to ensure that different denominations of bank notes shall be of a distinctive size, and that all the issuing banks concerned shall issue notes of agreed sizes.
    The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Anthony Barber): No, Sir, but I understand that the bank notes in the new series will be different in size, not only from each other, but also from the three current notes and from the Scottish notes.
    Mr. Stodart: In Scotland there are five joint stock banks which issue bank notes which, although different in design, are of the same size. Hitherto their £1 notes have been the same size as the Bank of England £1 note. Will not this difference in the Bank of England note make it extremely difficult for those who

    549
    are blind to differentiate between the notes and cause a great nuisance for those in the banks who have to sort and count the notes?
    Mr. Barber: As I think my hon. Friend knows, the Treasury is not responsible for the size, design or production of notes, but I will certainly bear in mind what he says.

    University Teachers (Salaries)
    Mrs. Hartasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the representations, a copy of which has been sent to him, of the Association of University Teachers, as expressed to the University Grants Committee, that no new proposals concerning the salaries of university teachers should include further differentials beyond those at present existing between teachers of medical and non-medical subjects; and what action he proposes to take in this regard.
    Sir E. Boyle: My right hon. Friend is aware of these representations. He is at present considering the advice which he has received from the University Grants Committee on university academic salaries generally, and he has no statement to make.
    Mrs. Hart: Will the hon. Member inform his right hon. Friend of the very serious concern felt in all branches of the universities on this matter? They very much hope that he will not think it reasonable to introduce further differentials and that he will pay regard to the fact that the university staffs have other suggestions to make, including the creation of more higher posts, to solve the problem of recruitment for branches which are in short supply?
    Sir E. Boyle: I cannot add to my Answer, but I can assure the hon. Lady that I am in close touch with this subject and that my right hon. Friend himself is considering it carefully.
    Mr. K. Robinsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proposals for differential remuneration of university teachers according to subject or faculty have been made to him by the University Grants Committee in the course of the current negotiations on university salaries; and to what extent he accepts the principle of further differentiation.
    Sir E. Boyle: As my right hon. Friend informed the House on 1st April, he is considering the advice which the University Grants Committee has given him on university academic salaries generally. I cannot say more at this stage.
    Mr. Robinson: Can the hon. Gentleman at least say whether this proposal has been made? Will he take note of the widespread dismay in the universities about the rumours of the proposal, particularly with regard to the difficulties which have already arisen out of the differentiation between pre-clinical and non-medical salaries? Will the hon. Member think very carefully before he accepts any suggestions of this kind?
    Sir E. Boyle: I would rather not add to my Answer, but I can assure the hon. Member and the hon. Lady the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) that these points are very much in our minds and that we are well aware of the matter to which he has referred.

    Tariffs (O.E.E.C. Survey)
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will take steps to ensure that the factual survey to be undertaken by the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation on the tariff proposals of the European Economic Community and the European Free Trade Area countries will be made available to Members of Parliament.
    Mr. Barber: I see no reason to suppose that the Governments concerned will have any objection to the results of this factual survey being published.

    3½ per cent. War Loan
    Mr. Brewisasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will introduce a scheme under which holders of 3½ per cent. war stock may be repaid at par over a period of years.
    Mr. Barber: No, Sir.
    Mr. Brewis: My hon. Friend's reply is not unexpected, but will he bear in mind that post-war credits, which is money lent compulsorily, are being paid at an accelerated rate, while with War Loan, which is money lent voluntarily, nothing is being done at all? Will he have another look at the matter?
    Mr. Barber: I appreciate what my hon. Friend says, but I am sure that he, in his turn, will realise that, although there are certain similarities between the repayment of post-war credits and the position of 3½ per cent. War Loan, there are very great differences in most of the relevant considerations. I hope that my hon. Friend will realise that, whatever the legal position, it would be unfair to holders of other undated stock if we were to take the special action he has suggested in relation to this stock.
    Mr. Lipton: Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that it is still the policy of Her Majesty's Government not to support the price of gilt-edged on the Stock Exchange?
    Mr. Barber: That is another question.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Does not my hon. Friend agree that this stock is rather different from other securities of a similar nature in that an appeal was made that people should invest in it for patriotic reasons, and that, although it was undated, a pledge was given that it would be repaid some time after 1952? Does not my hon. Friend think, therefore, that a start could be made with the original holders of this stock?
    Mr. Barber: I think that there would be great difficulty in doing what my hon. Friend suggests. She knows the difficulties only too well from the letter which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer sent her some time ago. I would only mention to her that, whatever her views may be about what she calls the patriotic appeal, we are proceeding in accordance with the terms of issue. I think that if we were to take the sort of action which she has suggested it would be unfair to past holders of the stock who base their decision to sell their holdings on the assumption that no special action of this kind would be taken.

    Defence Expenditure
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what extent the expenditure of the Atomic Energy Authority, the Ministry of Power, the Ministry of Labour, and the Home Office for defence purposes is reimbursed by the defence and Service Departments; and what is the total amount of such expenditure which is not reimbursed.
    Sir E. Boyle: The defence expenditure of the Ministry of Power, the Ministry of Labour and the Home Office is not reimbursed by the Service Departments. Particulars of this expenditure are given on pages 17 and 18 of the Report on Defence presented to Parliament by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence in February (Cmnd. 952). The Estimates of the Atomic Energy Authority are published net of certain receipts not disclosed for security reasons.
    Mr. Warbey: Is it not the case that even the net expenditure of the Atomic Energy Authority represents a great deal of expenditure on military account for research and development purposes in relation to plutonium and the construction of plutonium-producing factories, and so on? While some of this expenditure has to be disguised for security reasons, would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the real total of defence expenditure is about £1,700 million?
    Sir E. Boyle: I am not prepared to be drawn further on the question of the net expenditure of the Atomic Energy Authority, because it has long been accepted in all parts of the House that it is not desirable to add to the published information on this subject, but the hon. Member can see the figures in relation to the Ministry of Power, the Ministry of Labour and the Home Office in the Defence White Paper. They come altogether to about £9· million.
    Mr. Shinwell: While there is no desire on this side, nor indeed in any part of the House, for detailed figures in respect of a certain class of defence expenditure, is there any reason why the general figure should be concealed? What is the use of pretending that we are spending only £1,500 million or £1,600 million on defence when we are, in fact, spending £1,800 million? Should not we know the facts?
    Sir E. Boyle: I do not want to hide anything unnecessarily from the House. All of us on this side recognise the responsible manner in which the right hon. Gentleman occupied the office of Minister of Defence, but it is not easy to decide exactly what should be categorised as defence expenditure and what should not. I am not prepared in an Answer in Parliament to go further with regard to the estimates of the Atomic Energy Authority.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Central West Fife
    Mr. W. Hamiltonasked the President of the Board of Trade how many new jobs are in prospect in the immediate future in the Central West Fife area.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. John Rodgers): It is estimated that about 450 new jobs will become available in the area over the next few months.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can the hon. Gentleman be more specific and say exactly where these jobs will be? Is it a net figure taking into account the steady run-down of the mining industry?
    Mr. Rodgers: It is not possible at the moment to give the names of the firms. At the moment, they are confidential. These are 450 new jobs that will be provided.

    Trade with Poland
    Mr. Swinglerasked the President of the Board of Trade the percentage increases in British exports to, and imports from, Poland in each of the last three years; to what extent the Polish orders for capital goods in the United Kingdom are increasing; and what steps he is taking to expand this trade further.
    The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. F. J. Erroll): In 1957, United Kingdom exports to Poland decreased by 2 per cent. as compared with the previous year. In 1958 and 1959, they increased correspondingly by 14 per cent. and 48 per cent. The equivalent figures for United Kingdom imports from Poland are a decrease of 21 per cent., an increase of 10 per cent. and an increase of 26 per cent. respectively. No statistics are available of orders placed in the United Kingdom for capital goods for export. Negotiations on trade with Poland in 1960 and thereafter are due to be resumed shortly and the possibility of expanding this trade further will then be explored.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the Minister aware of the great possibilities of expanding this trade? Is he aware that the Poles have said that they are anxious and willing to place really big orders for industrial
    554
    equipment in Britain, but that this is made difficult for them by the fact that Her Majesty's Government have cut the quotas for the importation of Polish goods into this country this year? Is the hon. Gentleman willing to reconsider the matter, in view of the importance of the orders which the Poles could place here?
    Mr. Erroll: We fully recognise the importance of obtaining these orders, and the points which the hon. Member has put are fully in the minds of my right hon. Friends.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: Will the Minister of State bear in mind that, because of the desperate need of the Polish Government for foreign currency, they are entering into bilateral and other arrangements for the export of their coal to Europe at prices far below the cost of production, which is doing great harm to our prospects of increasing our export trade in Europe?
    Mr. Erroll: We are aware of the arrangements which the Polish Government are making for the export of their coal.

    Local Employment Act (Agreements with Private Firms)
    Mr. Peytonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will publish as a White Paper the full terms and conditions of any agreement made with a private firm under the Local Employment Act whenever such an agreement is concluded.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: No, Sir. As my right hon. Friend told the hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Delargy) in an Answer he gave him last week, it would not be proper to disclose details of assistance given or promised to individual firms under the Local Employment Act.
    Mr. Peyton: This will not do. Will my hon. Friend undertake to inform his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade that it is simply not good enough to obtain from Parliament a blank cheque for the spending of large sums of money and then not even to report the progress of the spending? Will my hon. Friend please bear in mind that even the Pekinese-type of Parliament which we now have is deserving of

    555
    a little bit more than these elderly crumbs of information which we are promised?
    Mr. Rodgers: Perhaps, in his intemperate language, my hon. Friend has forgotten that my right hon. Friend has already promised to consider what general information about assistance that is provided under the Act should be included in the annual report that we intend to present to Parliament.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: On a point of order. I should like your guidance, Mr. Speaker, whether this reference to the Pekinese in Parliament is in order?
    Mr. Speaker: I have no doubt that there is a variation between Pekinese, so that I would rather not rule.

    Martin Baker Aircraft, Limited
    Mr. Jayasked the President of the Board of Trade whether an application for an industrial development certificate by Martin Baker Aircraft, Limited, has yet been made or granted for building industrial premises at Chalgrove, Oxfordshire.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: No, Sir.
    Mr. Jay: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that, quite apart from the fact that many people object altogether to the leasing of the airfield to this firm, it would be an unsuitable location from all points of view for building new factories and that any suggestion of that kind would be much resented.
    Mr. Rodgers: I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's concern. The company, however, has planning permission to carry out research and development work on ejector seats for aircraft, but it has told the Air Ministry that it has no intention whatever of seeking to erect a factory at Chalgrove.
    Mr. Ronald Bell: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the company has its manufacturing side in my constituency and that it would be quite absurd to ask it to do its testing in the North of England?
    Mr. Rodgers: That has been appreciated.

    Stephenson Hawthorn Factory, Newcastle-upon-Tyne
    Mr. Shortasked the President of the Board of Trade what progress his Department has made in attracting another firm to the Stephenson Hawthorn factory in Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: I regret that we have not been able to find a new occupier.
    Mr. Short: Will the Minister bear in mind that the closure of his factory will be very bad indeed, from the point of view both of employment and of the prestige of the district? Will he remember that it is the oldest engineering works in the North of England and one of the oldest in the country, and that George Stephenson's "Rocket" was built there? Will he bear in mind that English Electric bought the factory three years ago and is now closing it without any regard to its social obligations to the workpeople? Will the hon. Gentleman do his best to get another labour-employing industry there and ensure that it is not turned over to warehousing?
    Mr. Rodgers: We appreciate the importance of the factory to the area and we are doing our best to find a tenant, but I am afraid we cannot do more.

    Fruit Pulp (Import from Bulgaria)
    Major Legge-Bourkeasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will now announce the terms of the Annual Agreement with Bulgaria regarding the 1960–61 importation of fruit pulp, showing details of quantities and prices in respect of each variety of fruit, and the operative dates.
    Mr. Erroll: The quotas for the import of fruit pulp from Bulgaria in the twelve months ending 31st March, 1961, are:

    Strawberry and raspberry pulp

    …

    1,500 tons

    Apricot and peach pulp

    …

    1,000tons

    Other kinds

    …

    500 tons

    The quotas have been determined, on this occasion, by weight. Prices are a matter for the traders concerned.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Will my hon. Friend accept the assurance that this decision will be greatly welcomed in the strawberry-growing areas in particular? Will he, however, watch carefully to ensure that what he has said in answer to Question No. 29 concerning the Poles does not undermine all the benefit that is likely to be derived from the agreement?
    Mr. Enroll: Naturally, I welcome my hon. and gallant Friend's assurance. I will try to interpret exactly what he meant by his reference to Question No. 29.

    Development Districts
    Mr. Jayasked the President of the Board of Trade how often he proposes, in future, to alter the list of development districts under the Local Employment Act.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: As I said in my Answer last Tuesday to the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Grey), the list of development districts will be altered whenever the situation requires.
    Mr. Jay: Will the Parliamentary Secretary note that, although we welcome the latest additions to the list and we are all in favour of reasonable flexibility, if he issues a new list every few weeks he will get into the sort of confusion that he was in a few years ago?
    Mr. Rodgers: I entirely agree that too frequent changes would lead to confusion. It is possible that the list will not be revised more than, say, three or four times a year at most.
    Mr. J. T. Price: Can the hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that he will in no circumstances alter the list for political convenience within six months of the next General Election?
    Mr. Rodgers: There has been no political consideration whatever in compiling the list of places which are to be found in the list of development districts.

    United States Paper-back Books (Import)
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the President of the Board of Trade what representations he has received from persons and firms relating to the dumping in this country of United States pornographic
    558
    paper-back books, which are now arriving in large numbers and being sold at cheap prices.
    Mr. Erroll: The Board of Trade was approached some months ago about the possible dumping of cheap books from the United States. No application has been made for the imposition of an antidumping duty. As regards the law on the import of pornographic books, I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given to him and to the hon. and learned Member for Ilkeston (Mr. Oliver) and my hon. Friend the Member for Heston and Isleworth (Mr. R. Harris) on 10th December last.
    Mr. Fletcher: I am aware of that, but is the Minister aware that this is now becoming a serious problem? My information is Chat a great many wholesalers are cutting back drastically their orders for English books because of the higher profit margin which they can obtain on American pornographic books, which are being imported into this country very cheaply. Does not the Minister think that, in the public interest, something ought to be done about this?
    Mr. Enroll: The pornographic material is properly dealt with under separate legislation, which I have described to the hon. Member on a previous occasion. It would be quite wrong to use the anti-dumping legislation as a form of censorship. If, however, from the viewpoint of material injury to British printing and publishing interests, it were desirable for them to proceed with an application under the anti-dumping legislation, the Board of Trade would, of course, be willing to consider it.
    Sir L. Plummer: Does the Minister recognise that there is a liberalising of censorship all over the world? Will he ensure that the general restrictive powers which he possesses are not used in the direction of censorship of literature?
    Mr. Erroll: I am glad to give that assurance. We have no intention of using for censorship purposes our powers to control imports.

    Clyde Graving Dock
    Dr. Dickson Mabonasked the President of the Board of Trade, following the recent conversations between the sponsors of the projected Clyde Graving

    559
    Dock and the Development Areas Treasury Advisory Committee, if he will make a statement of Her Majesty's Government's intentions.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: The provisional offer made to the sponsors last autumn has now been confirmed. If the sponsors proceed with the project, financial assistance will be available in accordance with the terms arranged between them and the Treasury.
    Dr. Mabon: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a great deal of concern on this side of the House about the breakdown of the sponsors' arrangements in view of the fact that the Treasury raised the matter of guaranteed capital? Am I to assume from the Answer that the snag which was made public in January is now overcome, and that D.A.T.A.C. is willing to accept the sponsors' bona fides as presently presented to it?
    Mr. Rodgers: The offer is conditional on satisfactory reports being obtained from B.O.T.A.C.'s technical advisers and accountants. General MacMillan was informed of this on 25th March.

    Northern Ireland
    Captain Orrasked the President of the Board of Trade why the letter sent by the Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Trade to 47,000 manufacturing establishments on 31st March contained no reference to Northern Ireland.
    Mr. McMasterasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he is taking to bring facilities available in Northern Ireland to the attention of firms wishing to expand.
    Mr. Stratton Millsasked the President of the Board of Trade why no reference to Northern Ireland's facilities for industrial development was made in the leaflet, "Expanding Industry", issued by his Department; and whether he will at once issue a supplementary pamphlet drawing attention to these facilities.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: The leaflet "Expanding Industry" was designed to describe the Board of Trade's powers under the Local Employment Act, which, as hon. Members know, applies only to Great Britain. For that reason, following the previous leaflet "Industry on the Move",
    560
    it did not refer to the powers of the Northern Ireland Government under their legislation. My right hon. Friend has, however, arranged for a reference to the facilities available in Northern Ireland to be included in the reprint which will shortly be available. I would also draw attention to the arrangements for closer co-operation between the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Commerce in Northern Ireland which were announced by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on 30th March.
    Captain Orr: Is my hon. Friend aware that, coming on the very morning after the debate on Northern Ireland in the House, the omission caused dismay? We accept and welcome what is now said about the reprint, and my hon. and right hon. Friends will have our full forgiveness if they lose no opportunity in the future to draw attention to Northern Ireland.
    Mr. McMaster: While thanking my hon. Friend for this reply, I should like to add to what my hon. and gallant Friend has said by asking for an assurance that if my hon. Friend is re-circularising those 47,000 firms he will draw their attention to the facilities available in Northern Ireland. I hope they will not simply get a duplicate of what they have already got, with a little bit added at the bottom which they may not note. Further, will my hon. Friend give the assurance that the facilities available in Northern Ireland will be given to firms in this country unless they expressly state that they are not able to extend to Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Rodgers: The reprint will mention the facilities available in Northern Ireland and advise interested persons to get in touch with the Ministry of Commerce in Belfast or the Ulster Office in London.
    Mr. Stratton Mills: Is it my hon. Friend's intention to recirculate this pamphlet to the 47,000 firms?
    Mr. Rodgers: No. It is not our intention to recircularise the 47,000 firms, but there is a reprint of 20,000 copies in the process of being produced. They will contain this new information, and we shall, of course, draw the attention of any other industrialists to the facilities which are available under the Northern Ireland scheme.
    Mr. Lipton: Would not the value of these letters and leaflets be very considerably amplified if they were also sent to South African industrialists who are a little doubtful about their own future there and might be persuaded now to come here?
    Mr. Rodgers: I think that is another question.

    UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA (ROYAL BALLET'S TOUR)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Prime Minister if, in view of recent events in South Africa, he will instruct the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations to consider, in consultation with the British Council, the possibility of cancelling the remainder of the Royal Ballet's South African tour.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. R. A. Butler): I have been asked to reply.
    The future of this tour, for which no official funds were provided and only a small contingent guarantee against loss was given, is a matter for decision not by the Government but by the Royal Ballet Company.
    Mr. Driberg: Yes, but is the right hon. Gentleman really expecting the House to accept that the Government could not exercise any influence through the British Council or through the Arts Council—as was done in 1956, when the Royal Ballet's visit to Moscow was cancelled at short notice as a protest against events in Hungary? Do the Government approve of these gestures of protest in one direction only, or are they serious in their disapproval of the continuing tyranny in South Africa?
    Mr. Butler: The Government's views have been amply and well expressed by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and I hardly think it would be appropriate to use the Ballet as a means of making a political gesture, the more so as we understand that the Ballet has been very successfully performed before Europeans as well as non-Europeans. In each case, its performances have been very well attended.
    Mr. Jeger: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Actors' Equity, which is the
    562
    profession's trade union, at its very well attended meeting only last weekend, decided that all these tours should be allowed to continue and that Dame Sybil Thorndike, our foremost actress and a great humanitarian, agreed that that should be so, but that actors and actresses going to South Africa should be free to express their opinions? Therefore. would the right hon. Gentleman ensure that complete freedom of speech is given to those who visit South Africa to express their views there?
    Mr. Butler: I am sure that the hon. Member has done a service by drawing attention to the decision of Equity. In relation to the second part of his supplementary question, I cannot give any undertaking about the administration of the law in South Africa. That is not within my jurisdiction. In general, the hon. Member's supplementary question confirms my original Answer, that I do not think it would be appropriate to interfere with the discretion of the Royal Ballet.

    SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (SPEECH)
    Mr. Donnellyasked the Prime Minister whether the speech by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the Annual Meeting of Wirral Division Women Conservatives at Meols, Cheshire, on Saturday, 2nd April, concerning United Nations policy towards the Union of South Africa, represented the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I have been asked to reply.
    Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Donnelly: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that parts of that speech were good but that parts of it were not so good? Can the right hon. Gentleman say at what point the doctrine of non-intervention in the affairs of a country applies at the United Nations when those internal affairs of that country constitute a threat to peace in the surrounding area?
    Mr. Butler: This matter was most seriously considered by the Government, and I think that the statement made by Sir Pierson Dixon on that occasion is correct, that we came to the conclusion

    563
    that the Resolution goes beyond the scope of the proper functions of the Council. As to the hon. Member's reference to the speech, I am glad to have part-praise of it from the hon. Gentleman. I think it was a very good speech and explained the situation accurately.
    Mr. Wade: In the case of South-West Africa, over which the Union was given a mandate, would the right hon. Gentleman agree that it cannot seriously be contended that the inhabitants of that area are the domestic concern of the Union only? In view of the very grave events in South Africa, have the Government any proposals to put forward for safeguarding the inhabitants of that mandated territory, and do the Government intend to change the policy of the representative of the Government at the United Nations if and when this subject is raised again?
    Mr. Butler: I answered a series of Questions on this on behalf of the Prime Minister some days ago. I drew attention to the fact that this lies largely within the jurisdiction and present competence of the United Nations. When the matter comes up I shall be only too pleased to give an account of the Government's attitude.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the Government's attitude at the United Nations is in a certain degree self-contradictory, since they appear to have not opposed the discussion in the Security Council and, therefore, to have conceded that the discussion was within its competence? Having conceded that, would it not have been better to have given the Security Council the benefit of such a speech as the Prime Minister made in Cape Town—and at home?
    Mr. Butler: Our delegate, on the occasion of agreeing that the matter should be inscribed, made a particular reservation in relation to the actual words of the Charter of the United Nations. I think that what we have done was exactly right in a very difficult situation and that we have made clear how deeply we feel about these matters and equally how strongly we feel that the Charter of the United Nations should be respected.

    COMMONWEALTH (HUMAN RIGHTS)
    Mr. Marquandasked the Prime Minister whether he will invite the Commonwealth Prime Ministers at their forthcoming conference to consider the desirability of a Commonwealth Convention of Human Rights with an appropriate court of adjudication.
    Mr. R. A. Butler: I have been asked to reply.
    No, Sir. The strength of our Commonwealth association is in great part due to the absence of this type of formal, institutional machinery.
    Mr. Marquand: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that will be regarded generally as a very disappointing reply? If the United Kingdom can adhere to a European Convention on Human Rights, why should not we initiate the establishment of a similar convention for the Commonwealth, especially in view of the fact that three self-governing members of the Commonwealth already have included in their constitutions declarations on human rights? Would not this be a very appropriate moment at which to extend this provision generally, as more and more countries become independent?
    Mr. Butler: I do not think that this would fit into the traditional development of the informal character in which the relations between members of the Commonwealth have developed; and, while I understand the sincerity of the views of the right hon. Gentleman, I do not think we can adopt them, nor do I think it would give pleasure to the varied members of the Commonwealth.
    Mr. Marquand: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that recent events have caused grave misgivings about this? Can we rely upon it and be certain that in future Commonwealth relations, as they now stand, will be sufficient protection for Commonwealth subjects? Will he undertake to look at the matter again? If I brought to see him Colonel Draper, who drew attention to this matter in The Times, would he please study the matter once more?
    Mr. Butler: Certainly, if the right hon. Gentleman would bring any of his learned friends or others to see me I should be

    565
    glad to extend the bounds of my knowledge and education, but I would not be able to subscribe to any idea which would seek to impose on the Government or a fellow-member of the Commonwealth rules of a central court or dictates of any convention.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business for next week?
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. R. A. Butler)Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 11TH APRIL—Second Reading of the Road Traffic and Roads Improvement Bill and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
TUESDAY, 12TH APRIL—Report stage of the Budget Resolutions.
Consideration of the Motion to approve the Post-War Credit (Income Tax) Amendment Regulations, 1960.
Committee stage of the International Development Association Bill.
Report and Third Reading of the Population (Statistics) Bill [Lords].
Consideration of the Motions to approve the Cinematograph Films (Collection of Levy) and (Distribution of Levy) Regulations; the National Health Service (Transfer of Officers and Compensation) (Amendment) Regulations, and similar Regulations for Scotland.
WEDNESDAY, 13TH APRIL—Supply [10th Allotted Day]: Committee. A debate will take place on Retirement Pensions until 7 o'clock.
Afterwards, a debate on the British Transport Commission Advisory Group.
These debates will take place in Committee of Supply on the appropriate Estimates.
THURSDAY, 14TH APRIL—It is proposed to meet at 11 a.m., take Questions until 12 noon, and adjourn at 5 o'clock.
Adjournment for the Easter Recess until Tuesday, 26th April.
Mr. G. Thomas: In view of the disappointment caused in Wales last week by the fact that the Leasehold Tenure
566
(Wales) Bill, the Second Reading of which was moved by the hon. Member for Barry (Mr. Gower), was talked out at the instigation of one of the Government Whips—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] —would the Leader of the House now give us an opportunity to discuss this Measure so that the views of the House might be better discovered?
Mr. Butler: I cannot accept the allegations contained in the hon. Member's question. The purity of my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary and his hon. Friends is well-known in these matters. This is a matter of private Members' time and I cannot give any absolute guarantee to the hon. Member.
Mr. Callaghan: Do the right hon. Gentleman's last few words mean that he might, in certain circumstances, be willing to reconsider this matter and give Government time, in view of the fact that the leasehold system is bearing very hardly on the people of South Wales and that the Bill would give a limited measure of relief to some of them?
Mr. Butler: I realise that, but in present circumstances I cannot give an undertaking that it will be treated as other than a Private Member's Measure.
Mr. G. Wilson: In view of the number of hon. Members who are likely to want to speak in the debate on Monday on the Second Reading of the Road Traffic and Roads Improvement Bill, may I ask whether the debate could not be extended for one hour?
Mr. Butler: I had heard an idea that this might be put forward. We will give consideration to the point.
Mr. Mulley: Would the Leader of the House give consideration to the possibility of publishing a record of the proceedings in Westminster Hall this morning in the official records of the House? I think that many hon. Members who were present and heard the impressive speech of the President of France would like to feel that it was made part of the records of the House.
Mr. Butler: I am sure that we all, on both sides of the House, were profoundly impressed not only by the President's speech, but also by the nature of its delivery. We might have some

567
difficulty, in view of the fact that this was an informal occasion, attended by both Houses, in inscribing it in our records, but if I can take advice I will.
Mr. J. Hynd: In view of the obvious uneasiness not only in this country but in the countries of the European Economic Community about the growing estrangement between us and them, are we to understand that we are not to have an opportunity before the House breaks up for Easter, or very soon afterwards, of having a debate?
Mr. Butler: There is only one remaining Supply day and the Opposition have chosen two subjects other than the one which the hon. Member has in mind. I therefore see no opportunity for the House to consider this matter before we rise for Easter.
Mr. Gaitskell: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that this is an extremely important question and that there is a great deal of anxiety on both sides of the House about our relations with Europe? Will he, therefore, provide time for a debate as soon as possible after the Easter Recess?
Mr. Butler: I do not think that anybody would doubt the importance or the complexity of this subject, on which
568
there was a Question on the Order Paper today. I cannot give an undertaking at the moment, but the fact that I underline its importance indicates that I will bear it in mind.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS ON GOING INTO COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY ON THE CIVIL ESTIMATES
  Capital Investment in Industry
  Mr. J. H. Osborn: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to capital investment in industry, and move a Resolution.
  World Refugee Problem
  Mr. A. Roberts: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates I shall call attention to the world refugee problem, and move a Resolution.
  Electricity Supply (Rural Areas)
  Mr. Bossom: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to the need for speeding up rural electricity supply, and move a Resolution.
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Considered in Committee [Progress 6th April].
  [Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]
  AMENDMENT OF THE LAW
  Question again proposed,
  That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the national debt, and the public revenue and to make further provision in connection with finance, so, however, that this Resolution shall not extend to making amendments of the enactments relating to purchase tax so as to give relief from tax, other than amendments making the same provision for chargeable goods of whatever description or for all goods to which any of the several rotes of tax at present applies.

  BUDGET PROPOSALS AND ECONOMIC SITUATION
  3.38 p.m.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: This is the fourth day of the Budget debate and I do not think that it could be denied that so far the Government have had a hard time. I imagine that the Chancellor of the Exchequer may be able to withstand the posturing of the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) with a certain amount of equanimity, but I think that he is bound to have taken the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) a little more seriously, although, of course, as my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) pointed out yesterday, there is a big split in the Tory rebel forces.
  The hon. Member for Kidderminster has demanded all sorts of tax reductions this year, whereas the right hon. Member for Monmouth has made it clear that he does not think that they were possible this year, but that in previous years we should have had a much more austere financial policy which would have made them possible. Why is it, he asked,
  "…that we can never hope for effective and consistent lowering of taxes without running into another crisis? "—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 430.]
  It seemed to me to show an extraordinary distortion of vision to put this
  570
  point in exactly this form. I would certainly have preferred to put it in the form: why is it that we cannot have continued expansion without running very quickly close to another crisis?
  There are two reasons for this. First, this fixation on taxation reduction at all costs and as the primary objective of economic policy gets the matter arithmetically out of proportion. Even in last year's Budget, which was, I suppose, as generous a Budget as even most hon. Gentlemen opposite can imagine, the taxation concessions amounted to only 2 per cent. of the national income. That is only about half what the rate of growth in the national income was last year and should be in any normal, reasonably buoyant year. Therefore, the position is that, even from the point of view of increasing the wealth of consumers, taxation concessions by their very nature are not as important as a sustained rate of growth, which, in our view, it should be the primary purpose of the Budget to ensure.
  There is also the point, put by my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby yesterday, that if we are to devote absolute priority constantly to shrinking the total of public expenditure as a proportion of our national income, what sort of community are we to live in? Do hon. Members opposite really want to see, in Professor Galbraith's striking phrase,
  "Public squalor in the midst of private affluence",
  as the future for this country? Let hon. Members make no mistake about it: that is what this involves, and our hospital, education and public services will become even more inadequate than they are at present if we devote our attention primarily and exclusively to the task of shrinking the proportion of public expenditure.
  It would be a great mistake if the view emerged from this debate that the quarrel on the Budget is only between, on the one hand, those hon. Members like the hon. Member for Kidderminster and the right hon. Member for Monmouth in their different ways, who devote an overriding priority to tax concessions, and all the rest of us, including the Chancellor and the Opposition, on the other.
  The President of the Board of Trade —I am sorry not to see him here this

  571
  afternoon, because I wish to refer to him a great deal in the course of my speech —in his speech on Tuesday tried to saddle us with this position. He argued that last year the Government used the Budget to expand the economy and that this year it is using the Budget to apply a slight brake to the economy. He went on to say that the Labour Party did not oppose expansion last year and does not oppose caution this year, and that the Government's economic policy was, therefore, clearly beyond criticism so far as the Labour Party was concerned.
  Listening to this facilely specious argument from the President of the Board of Trade, I think I began to understand rather more clearly exactly why our relations with Europe have been so badly managed over the past three years. I wonder how often the right hon. Gentleman, with his easy competence, won petty arguments, at least to his own satisfaction, and yet completely failed to notice that he was missing a much more important point. I wonder how often he was so concerned to prove himself right that he failed to notice how rapidly the general situation was hardening against him.
  I want to return a little later to the question of Europe, but for the moment I want to deal with the point put by the President of the Board of Trade, the point that because the Labour Party last year thought expansion was good and this year thinks there is a case for caution in the Budget it automatically follows that we are underwriting the Government's economic policy. Nothing of the sort is true. It is perfectly true that we welcomed expansion last year. We thought it ought to have come much earlier, but that it was better late than never. Looking back on the arguments in favour of it having come earlier, I am bound to say that they seem to me stronger today than they were a year ago.
  Why did we have to start this expansion in the already deteriorating balance of payments position of 1959 instead of, as we urged, in the far stronger balance of payments position in 1958? Why start it in a year in which the surplus was only £145 million as against a year in which it was £349 million?
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Derick Heathcoat Amory): I should just like to correct the hon. Gentleman on one point. We started the re-expansion in the summer of 1958.
  Mr. Jenkins: In the summer of 1958, right at the end of the proceedings on the Finance Bill of that year, the Chancellor led his followers into the Lobby to vote against our proposals for restoring investment allowances, which, I should have thought, would have been by far the best way to start an expansion at that time.
  It is perfectly true that the hire-purchase restrictions came off towards the end of 1958—and I shall have something to say about that in a moment— but so far as Budgets are concerned it was the 1959 Budget, in an already deteriorating position, which was the expansionary Budget and it was the 1958 Budget, in a very strong balance of payments position, which was the restrictive Budget. Why was that so?
  I think that it was probably because the shadow of the right hon. Member for Monmouth was still looming over the Government. I hope that the Chancellor will not allow that shadow to re-emerge and dominate his thoughts and views too much in the next year. After all, the right hon. Member for Monmouth presenting himself to the Committee as the successful exponent of economic strength through fiscal austerity really is a rather implausible picture. It is no part of my duty to defend the Chancellor today, but the Chancellor at least has one year of expansion without inflation behind him whereas the right hon. Member for Monmouth gave us galloping inflation and not a trace of expansion. Therefore, I hope the Chancellor will not be too influenced by the re-emergence of the shadow of the right hon. Member for Monmouth in yesterday's debate.
  What we complain about is this. Why only one year's expansion and then a return to, at any rate, modified restriction? What are the facts of the situation? Today, the Chancellor is cautious, and in the present situation we do not necessarily disagree with caution, because the balance of payments position is clearly deteriorating and some bottlenecks are developing in the economy. Examples are: steel, particularly sheet steel; labour in some parts of the

  573
  country; and perhaps bricks during the next few years. But why? Last year's industrial expansion was the first since 1955, and, viewed against this background, it was not really all that buoyant a year. The figure of 10 per cent. which we hear quoted so much at present is the figure of expansion of the last quarter of 1959 against the last quarter of 1958. The figure for the whole year is 5½ per cent. over the figure for 1958.
  In Western Germany, during 1959, the rate of growth was not 5½ per cent., but 7 per cent., and it followed in Germany, not as here, a year of recession in 1958. There, 1958 was not a year of recession, but at worst a year of pause in very rapid growth. Also, 1956 and 1957, so far from being stable years as they were here, were in Germany years of very rapid growth indeed. Therefore, following on a very different position, we had in Western Germany more rapid growth in 1959 than we had here, and we had it not starting with a great reserve of labour, which we always used to be told was the key factor in the German situation, but starting from a position in which the reserve of labour was smaller in Germany than in this country. Yet we had a more rapid rate of growth, and we have a position at the end of it in which the West German balance of payments is still enormously strong, with a surplus of about £700 million.
  Why is there this much stronger position, this ability to sustain expansion with far less deleterious effects on the balance of payments, this ability to expand expansion more rapidly without any increase in the labour force? The answer, of course, is the much higher rate of investment in German industry— and Germany is not unique in this respect, but is merely symbolic of all the countries within the European Economic Community, and symbolic, too, of a great number of other countries. Here, we really come up against our main criticism of this boom of the past year.
  Our criticism certainly is not that it has taken place, but against the form that it has taken, and the fact that because of that form it has had to be damped down so early in its life. The main instruments used by the Chancellor to promote expansion, to get away from the recession of 1958, were, first, the removal of hire-purchase restrictions in the autumn of that year,
  574
  and, secondly, the concessionary Budget of a year ago. Both of these measures were primarily directed towards expanding consumption. Therefore, it is not at all unnatural that the boom should have taken place primarily in durable consumer goods of all sorts and, in particular, with motor cars.
  In reply to the Chancellor's intervention, I said that we urged him in the summer of 1958, nearly two years ago, to restore investment allowances at that stage, and we did so because we thought that the thing to do was to get investment moving ahead before consumption started to move ahead and not have investment trailing behind as it has done so often in the past.
  Mr. William Shepherd: Is the hon. Gentleman really sure that it is possible to persuade business people to invest larger sums of money, despite these inducements, when the demand for goods already is less than the capacity of their factories? Is it not logical and sensible to stimulate consumption first?
  Mr. Jenkins: Of course, one will not be able to get businessmen, or anyone else, to expand investment indefinitely unless they have an assumption that their increased investment will lead to a profitable return. What the hon. Member is arguing is that one must always provide the consumption push-forward before the investment push-forward. But one then gets into a position in which, as soon as investment gets going, the Chancellor has to tell us that the economy is being overloaded. That really is a counsel of despair, and means that there is no possibility of decisively jerking up the proportion of investment in the economy.
  Mr. Shepherd: My argument was based upon the premise that the demand existed below the level of supply, and I repeat that in those circumstances a stimulation to consumption is inescapable.
  Mr. Jenkins: I do not entirely accept that argument. But I do not think that we need go too deeply into it, because all I am arguing now is that the Chancellor made a great mistake in not re-introducing investment allowances in the summer of 1958. If the hon. Member

  575
  is saying that they would have been relatively ineffective in this stiuation, he is entitled to his view, although I do not accept it. But it cannot be argued that it would have been harmful for the Chancellor to have done that. On any assumption he would at least have given investment a chance to get going more quickly.
  What is the result of this policy of saying that consumption must come first and hoping that investment will come along behind it? The result is that in the last quarter of 1959, at the peak of the boom, we still had investment in manufacturing industry lower than in any quarter since 1955. That is the result of pursuing the policy which the hon. Member has been advocating.
  We are asked to console ourselves with the fact that there was suddenly an upward revision of the estimates for investment in manufacturing industries at the end of last year, which suggests that they will be substantially higher in 1960. I hope that it will be higher, but can we be sure that that will be so? We are asked to erect a great superstructure of hopes upon this rather narrow and uncertain foundation, upon estimates by manufacturers of what they may do in certain circumstances in the forthcoming year.
  It may be that the position will change. It may be that the Bank Rate change, the Budget itself, or the credit measures that the Chancellor has threatened, will have a substantial effect and make manufacturers change their minds on a number of these issues. It is not only that the total of investment has been extremely disappointing, but also that the balance of that investment has often been wrong.
  The President of the Board of Trade —who is still not here, though he made a long speech on Tuesday and I am surprised that he has not come to the opening of the debate today—in his speech last year, which was very much in his Rotary club mood, said:
  "Surely, the private sector determines the level of capital investment in the light of probable demand, but if the gentlemen in Whitehall are to determine the capital investment programme we shall finish up with an excess capacity in some sectors and an inadequate capacity in others."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th April, 1959; Vol. 603, c. 241.]
  576
  That was his view last year. Does he still agree with it? Do the Chancellor and the Financial Secretary still agree with it? Whose misjudgment has produced a situation in which sheet steel imports into this country in January and February this year were five times as great as in January and February last year?
  This is only too reminiscent of one of the major trends of our balance of payments position in 1955, which forced us to the restrictive Budget of that time. Is the Chancellor satisfied that the investment judgments in the motor industry are phased with investment proposals in the steel industry so that they will not move too far ahead of supply? Is he satisfied that the most significant feature of the investment prospect today singled out for mention by the Chancellor is that investment in distribution and services industries is to go ahead by 20 per cent. in 1960, while a far smaller increase is expected in manufacturing industry and basic industry?
  Is it not clearly the case that for several years we have been suffering from a top-heavy balance in such investment as we have had, with insufficient attention being directed to what I might might call the infrastructure of industrial development? I do not want to be dogmatic about this—the dogmatism lies on the other side of the Committee. The dogmatism is on the part of the President of the Board of Trade, and the other members of the Government Front Bench, who go on from year to year with inadequate total levels of investment, with a great deal of it misdirected, and yet still say that the gentlemen in Whitehall must always be wrong and the decisions of private investors always right.
  I do not want to be dogmatic about this. I do not much mind the methods by which we do it, but it is essential to jerk up investment in this country and direct it to a far greater extent to expanding our basic industrial equipment than has been done in the past. Otherwise. we shall merely go on in a situation in which, as compared with our major trade rivals, we become increasingly vulnerable to balance of payments difficulties and increasingly unable to sustain other than extremely short-lived periods of expansion.

  577
  The inevitable result of that is that our rivals all over the world will continue to go ahead faster and more consistently than we do and that our economy, relatively, will increasingly become a stagnant backwater. If the opinions of the hon. Member for Kidderminster and his hon. Friends were to prevail, it would be an extremely badly managed backwater, one in which bombast would be a substitute for reason. If the Chancellor maintains his control, then I think that it will be quite a tidily and honestly managed backwater. But in either case it will be a backwater compared with what is happening in the mainstream of economic development around us.
  I want now to turn to an area which is decisively not a backwater, to Europe and our relations with the Six, the Common Market countries. The Chancellor told us very little about that in his Budget speech and the President of the Board of Trade told us nothing about it, although I can well understand that he might now wish to draw a veil of silence over the whole subject. I cannot think that the Economic Secretary, who did mention it yesterday, believed that by any standards he was being very informative.
  Is not this a major question? What are the Prime Minister's remarks in Washington? We have heard a great deal to suggest that the Prime Minister was rather badly treated in the matter of Washington methods of security, but we have heard nothing to suggest that what the Prime Minister was reported as saying was not, in fact, what he did say in Washington. What he said in Washington was that unless, by July, we could get an arrangement with the Six, there might be involved a strain on our balance of payments position of between £100 million and £200 million a year and it might cause us to reappraise the whole direction of our international economic policy. What does the Chancellor believe about that? Does he agree with the Prime Minister? Does he think that we are facing a deterioration of from £100 million to £200 million a year in our balance of payments position? Has he taken that into account in framing his Budget and in framing his estimates for the balance of payments?
  This is a major issue, or the Prime Minister would not have been suggesting
  578
  that we should form anti-Napoleonic alliances to deal with it. We should have from the Chancellor at least something rather more than the jejune comments on the Vienna meeting which we had from the Economic Secretary. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will repair that omission when he replies this evening and will tell us, in particular, whether he believes that there is any likelihood of the Six abandoning their acceleration proposals for July, the Hallstein proposals as they are known, and accepting instead the Vienna suggestions of the Seven.
  If the right hon. Gentleman is studying this situation at all closely, as he must, he must agree that it is, perhaps unfortunately, extremely unlikely that the Six will do anything of the sort. It seems to me, on the whole, unwise for us to claim too strenuously that they will. After all, if we are anxious to create a situation in which there are fewer suspicions in Europe of our attitude to the Common Market than there have been in the last three years, the best way of setting about lulling those suspicions is not to apply all our influence against proposals for bringing about the Common Market rather more quickly.
  Mr. David Price: Would the hon. Gentleman support the views of a minority of us that we should now very seriously consider joining the Common Market?
  Mr. Jenkins: There are so many minorities on the other side of the Committee that it is difficult to commit oneself to the views of any one of them. Speaking for myself, I take the view that at the moment, whether we like it or not, the Common Market would not have us in. Having gone through the incredibly delicate business of drawing up its treaty and being now engaged on the very delicate task of getting over the hump of French protectionism, the Common Market is anxious to have nothing to divert it from that path.
  What I would advocate is that we should now offer much more good will to the Six than we have done in the past and make it clear that we recognise that a Franco-German rapprochement is one of the greatest things for Western Europe and even more important than

  579
  matters of trade, that we genuinely mean that, and that, having created the Seven, we regard it more as a bridge towards the Six than as an extremely ineffective weapon against the Six.
  The trouble is that the Seven have been created very much in the exact image of the Government's free trade area proposals, which were decisively rejected by Europe, and is, therefore, much more an attempt to soothe the ruffled pride of the Government than an attempt to create a meeting point with the Six. What is extremely important is that we should abandon that attitude, abandon our attitude of offended pride towards Europe and abandon the hopeless wishful thinking which has coloured all our approaches to Europe over the past three years.
  That is why I say that it is no good the Economic Secretary suggesting that all we have to do is to wait until May and hope that the Six will then have changed their minds about July. They will not have done so and it is better that the Chancellor should face it now and tell us honestly what his attitude to that position is. Let us have much less wishful thinking about the Six and treat the Seven as a bridge and not a weapon, making it more like the Six and hoping that at some time in the not-too-distant future, when the Six get over the hump of French protectionism, it will be possible to amalgamate the two units. That seems to me to be the best course at the present.
  Mr. D. Price: Illusory.
  Mr. Jenkins: It is a great deal less illusory than that suddenly, at this very delicate stage of the progress of the Six, we can open up negotiations and expect them to accept a complete reversal of everything we have said for a long time past. That is an illusory view about the short term. What one has to do is to find a practical solution for the short term while keeping open the direction in which the hon. Member wants to go for the slightly more middle term future.
  My last point is this. In these economic debates, hon. Members opposite seem to be increasingly obsessed by two considerations, by the level of Government expenditure and by wages. If there
  580
  is a mention of any economic problem, they automatically react with an emotional mention of one or other to those two subjects. Yesterday, the Economic Secretary gave us a great lecture about wages and the damaging effect which an increase in wages might have on the economy.
  I hope that the hon. Gentleman realised that that came at the end of a year in which wage rates were remarkably steady and in which labour costs per unit of output were falling quite substantially, whereas, on the other hand, as I think the Chancellor recognises, profits were rising rapidly per unit of output and there was a complete contrast between the movement of labour costs and the movement of profit margins. Nor did we see any significant price reductions during the year.
  The durable consumer goods industry led the boom and the profits increased enormously, but there were no significant groups of durable consumer goods where prices came down substantially during the year. On the other hand, we have seen this morning, in the Financial Times, that during 1959 equity shares rose in value by no less than 51½ per cent., the total increase in their value in that one year alone being £6,300 million.
  The Financial Times commented that this came on top of 1958 when these shares had not shown a greatly inferior rise. It went on to comment that further hopes for 1960 might not be altogether !ill-founded. Dividends, it noted, had gone up by 14 per cent. in 1959, the biggest rise since 1954, when they had increased by 20 per cent. The report then said:
  "There is a strong possibility that this year's increase"—
  that is, in dividends—
  "will exceed even that for 1954, possibly by a wide margin."
  Are we being asked to accept that in these circumstances the Chancellor and hon. Gentlemen opposite seriously believe that a well-administered capital gains tax would yield only £50 million a year? Is that seriously put forward by the Treasury, or by any hon. Gentleman opposite who has considered the situation carefully? Hon. Gentlemen opposite have tried to have it two ways. First, they have said it would be a derisory tax, yielding only a small

  581
  amount of revenue. At the same time, some hon. Gentlemen, like the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. F. M. Bennett), who was rash enough to attempt to defend the Chancellor, sought to mitigate his rashness and improve his standing with those round him by showing how strongly he was against a capital gains tax because of the highly damaging effects it would have.
  To some extent, hon. Gentlemen opposite adopt a contradictory attitude to the whole subject of tax avoidance in its widest sense. The Chancellor has gone a little way this year towards closing some of the most blatant loopholes. Almost every step that he has taken has been broadly, though not completely, in line with proposals which have been urged on him mainly from this side of the Committee, but to some extent by independent opinion, in previous years. When those opinions have been urged on him previously it has always been said that they were of no importance. The proposals have been scoffed at because it was said that loopholes were nonexistent, or were so small that the revenue lost was negligible.
  We are now to have a long Finance Bill to deal with a number of proposals, which we welcome. The Chancellor and hon. Members opposite ask us to believe that this will close all the loopholes. We are asked to believe that, although he said last year that all the loopholes were closed and he was shown to be wrong, this year he is right in saying, that he has finally closed all the loopholes, and that anything further that we may suggest will be of negligible importance and will be making a mountain out of a molehill.
  The fact is that this goes only a little way towards giving our taxation structure a greater sense of reality and fairness. There are bigger loopholes still to be closed, and there is no doubt that action to close them should be taken in the near future. This is the first Budget of the new Parliament. In the normal course of events, with the majority which the Government have, they will introduce at least one or two more Budgets and possibly more.
  If the present mood on the benches opposite prevails, the danger is that as these Budgets go on, and as our economic policy develops, not that there will be a sudden, economic catastrophe which will
  582
  overtake us, but that our economy will remain relatively sluggish and will become increasingly vulnerable from a balance of payments point of view. We will be cut off from the swiftly flowing stream of economic growth in Europe. Our taxation system will remain notorious for its intellectual dishonesty with its high nominal rates of taxation compensated for by wide loopholes through which many are able to escape. Our system will be unfair not only between different income groups, but between different individuals in broadly speaking the same income groups. The main back bench impetus will be toward reducing Government expenditure, and this will be a guarantee that our public services, already inadequate, will increasingly become a disgrace to a prosperous and civilised community.
  The Chancellor ought to turn his back more decisively than he has done so far on these developments. Unless he does that he will find himself no more popular with this side of the Committee than he is with the other side.
  4.15 p.m.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sir Edward Boyle): I shall not reply to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) on the subject of trade with Europe, because my right hon. Friend will have something to say on that when he winds up the debate this evening, but I will say something on the subject of investment, to which the hon. Member devoted much of his speech.
  I assure the hon. Gentleman that we on this side of the Committee are well aware of the fact that our competitive power in the world, and our prospects for future increases in production, depend to a large measure on the level of productive investment. I thought the hon. Gentleman was less than fair to my right hon. Friend about what has been achieved with regard to investment, and about the measures which my right hon. Friend has taken.
  It is not true that my right hon. Friend totally neglected this subject in 1958, when the initial allowance was increased. We had a 4½ per cent. rise in investment in Britain between 1958 and 1959, and one point of importance, as the hon. Gentleman will surely have realised from the Budget speech, is that if one takes

  583
  the coming year, 1960–61, investment both in the public sector and in the private sector, whatever the precise figure for the private sector may turn put to be, is going up by a substantial percentage.
  It is not fair to say that we have neglected the importance of investment. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd)—
  Mr. Jenkins: Does the Financial Secretary dissent from Sir Roy Harrod's figure, that even if the best estimate of what is likely to happen in the private sector is realised that will bring our investment back to the 1957 level and no higher?
  Sir E. Boyle: I do not want to pursue this argument for too long, but there are two points to be made in reply. First, we must not forget that 1957 was a year of slackening economic activity, and it was remarkable that investment was kept going at a constant rate during that time. The other point about the forthcoming year is that, whatever the Treasury figure may turn out to be, we shall achieve a greater percentage increase in investment, both private and public, than in any of the other main blocks of demand in the economy, including consumer demand. That is a prospect which we regard with pleasure.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: The Financial Secretary said that 1957, a year of declining economic activity, was the year in which it was a great achievement to maintain investment. Will he explain why his right hon. Friend the then Chancellor, in September, 1957, made a cut in both public and private investment the very centre of his proposals?
  Sir E. Boyle: At that time it was necessary to give first priority to saving the £ sterling. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that in both the private and public sectors the policy of encouraging investment was pursued far earlier in 1958 than is realised by hon. Gentlemen opposite.
  There is much in the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle that we would not have had this prospect of increased investment but for the tax reductions in last year's Budget. It is unreal to suppose that one can get
  584
  investment going without businessmen feeling that they have an expectation of reasonable profits for a term of years.
  I am not blaming the hon. Member for Stechford, but I noticed with interest that, unlike many of his hon. Friends, he said nothing about pensions. The party opposite must decide what is its first priority. Is it first and foremost a party which wishes to increase the proportion of the national income going to investment, or a party which is more ready to respond, all the time, to appeals for greater social service expenditure? If we try to do all these things at once the effect can only be to return to a state of overstrain, in which we place the £ sterling in danger, which would be the greatest of all enemies of economic progress.
  I come back now to the principal object of my right hon. Friend's Budget. As the Committee is aware, it is to exercise a moderately restraining influence on the rate of expansion. As my right hon. Friend's Budget speech showed, this rate of expansion is likely to show a continued upward trend in total demand, with consumption, public authorities' expenditure, investment and exports all expected to rise. At the same time, as we all know, the country no longer has the reserves of labour and unused capacity which existed a year ago.
  Unemployment over the whole country is below 2 per cent., and in the Midlands and the South labour shortages are beginning to develop. Quite clearly, there are dangers that expansionary forces could lead to an overloading of demand. If this were allowed to happen, it would, first, destroy hopes of maintaining price stability and, secondly—and perhaps still more dangerous—it would have an adverse effect on our balance of payments.
  I must make it clear that my right hon. Friend is not seeking to stop the economic expansion which has been so striking a feature of the last twelve months. There is no doubt that total demand, and particularly capital investment, will continue to increase. I emphasise that the Budget is designed not to curb the revival of industrial investment, but rather to make room for it. We want to live within our means as a nation, and fortify our balance of payments, without hitting at the roots

  585
  of our future earning capacity in a competitive world.
  On the other hand, the Government have shown by the decision to increase taxation and by their declared readiness to use monetary policy, that they are determined not to allow the economy to drift once again into a condition of excess demand, inflation, and balance of payments crisis. In other words, we want to hold on to the twin advantages of growth coupled with stability which we have enjoyed during the last twelve months.
  Mr. William Ross: Where? In Scotland?
  Sir E. Boyle: As my right hon. Friend pointed out, the Local Employment Act has been passed precisely to deal with the difficulties of special areas. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), who listens and takes part in many of our debates, will not seriously claim that the trouble in Britain today is a general weakness of effective demand.
  I know that some people find it difficult to understand why taxes should have to be raised at a time of prosperity and buoyant tax revenue. But this is not really so surprising, because the Budget is not only concerned with meeting the expenses of Government. It is also one of the most important means of ensuring a balance between the total of our resources and the demands made upon them. A buoyant tax revenue may well be an important sign that pressure on our resources has been increasing. This is precisely why, when my right hon. Friend is framing his Budget, he is bound to have regard not merely to Exchequer considerations, but also to the state of the economy as a whole and, perhaps above all, to the state of our balance of payments.
  Furthermore, I am sure that my right hon. Friend is right to ease the incipient overstrain on our resources by a combination of monetary and budgetary measures, and not by one type of measure only. During the years 1945–51 the Labour Government came under considerable criticism—not only from Conservative Members—for their neglect of the monetary weapon. A number of supporters of the party opposite have since admitted that there was some truth
  586
  in that charge. The right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) has come near to doing so, and Mr. J. R. Sargent and some other economists have also done so. But it would surely be an equal mistake, at the present juncture, to place exclusive reliance on the monetary weapon. The truth is that we can consolidate our position far more effectively, and contain the threat of inflation far more securely, if we use both the monetary and the budgetary weapons at the same time.
  It is true that, as a party, we want to see a further reduction in taxation during the present Parliament. Most of us—perhaps all of us—consider that personal taxation, especially on earned incomes, is still too high. But nothing has been done in this Budget which will affect the reliefs in the level of personal taxation which were made during the last Parliament. As a party, we have never said—there was nothing to this effect in any electoral manifesto that we have ever issued—that no taxes should ever be raised. And I cannot believe it is sensible to talk about modest increases of taxation as though they involved great matters of political principle.
  We may differ from right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite in greater or lesser degree about the proper limit of State activity, the degree of equality that we wish to retain, and the sort of society we wish to achieve. But I put it to some of my hon. Friends that to stigmatise any Budget which raises taxes as a "Socialist" Budget is to make just the sort of confusion between ends and means which, I should have thought, we could much better leave to the select band of fundamentalists on the benches opposite.
  The task of a Chancellor of the Exchequer can never be an easy one. Wherever we sit, we would all want to achieve, at one and the same time, stable prices, a healthy balance of payments, a high and stable level of employment, rising living standards and—we ought to add, nowadays—some increase in our ability to help the underdeveloped areas of the world. We can achieve all those objectives only if we have a Chancellor who constantly exercises good judgment at every fresh conjuncture of affairs. Just as I believe that last year my right hon. Friend gave the country the Budget which

  587
  circumstances required, so I believe that the same will prove to be true this year.
  I now turn to a subject which has figured prominently in these debates, namely, Government expenditure. This is, naturally, a subject which any Financial Secretary must feel about rather keenly. As I listened to some of the speeches on this subject I was reminded of several afternoons which I have spent downstairs in the large Ministerial Conference Room, being glowered at by 10 or 20 of my colleagues in the Government. I thought that when my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) pointed accusingly in the direction of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor yesterday, he was really pointing not so much at my right hon. Friend as at the spending Ministers, whom he would have liked to be present at the time.
  The question of Government expenditure is a difficult one, and I warmly agree with what was said by the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland), namely, that it is a question about which we should do our best to be rational, approaching it in a reasonable spirit.
  First, we must admit that a Minister who does not appear to gain his fair share of successes with the Treasury, or with his colleagues, gets a thoroughly bad time in the House, and—just as important—an extremely bad Press outside.
  Mr. H. Wilson: Since the hon. Member is making such vicious personal attacks upon those whom he calls the spending Ministers, should he not have given them notice, and should they not be here?
  Sir E. Boyle: I normally enjoy the interventions of the right hon. Gentleman, but I do not think that that was quite up to his usual standard.
  The same thing is true of individual Members, to a smaller degree. Hon. Members on both sides of the Committee would agree that a Member who does not press for the inclusion of a school in his constituency in the building programme will not be praised for being an upholder of public economy; the word will simply get round in his constituency that he is not very good at getting things done. It is easy to be in favour of a
  588
  general reduction in Government expenditure, but the problem is very different when we come down to individual cases.
  Any Government must be scrupulously careful over the spending of public money, and especially when the Government are themselves claiming scarce resources of manpower and materials. I do not believe that, as a Government, we have a bad record of supervision over administrative expenditure, and I can judge this only from work I have done at first hand in individual Departments. For instance, whereas we spend a great deal today on education, I do not think that any reasonable person can possibly claim that the Ministry of Education, as a Department, or its inspectorate, is overstaffed.
  Again, when a certain kind of Government activity falls away, or is allowed to lapse, I can assure my hon. Friends that the Treasury is careful to see that there is an immediate reflection in the Estimates presented to Parliament. I can give an example from this year's figures. The provision made in the Estimates for the expenditure in connection with town and country planning has been reduced from the figure of £11·8 million last year to a little below £8 million for this coming year, a reduction of nearly £4 million.
  That reduction results directly from a fall in the number of claims attracting payments for compensation under Part II of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1954. In those ways, by seeing that reductions in Government activities or services falling off are immediately reflected in the Estimates, we can make some impact on the total expenditure. I can assure my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth that the process known as shaking down the Estimates and the detailed bargaining with Departments, went on vigorously during this last winter before the publication of the Vote on Account, just as it has done in previous years.
  But when all this has been said, there are, I believe, three important points concerning Government expenditure which the whole Committee ought to bear in mind. First, it is just no good thinking that we can, as a House of Commons, approve a major step forward in social reform, and ensue it, without the expenditure of a great deal of

  589
  public money. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Education quoted the example of education expenditure during the debate on the Crowther Report. I will not repeat what he said, but I will give just one further rather striking example—expenditure on National Assistance.
  On returning to the Treasury, I was struck by the fact that the Estimate for National Assistance grants had gone up from £125 million for the 1959–60 Estimate to £170 million for the 1960–61 Estimate. Indeed, it is not so many years ago that we were surprised to find a National Assistance Estimate of £100 million. I discovered, after making inquiries, that the increase in the average Assistance payments of 7s. 6d. a week added £29 million to the bill. There are 150,000 more people claiming National Assistance as a result of the last increase—people who were just above the level before and who now come just within its ambit—and that adds £12½ million.
  Another point which is of interest is that very few of the clients of the National Assistance Board are in any way affected, or very much affected, by the state of the economy and the general condition of prosperity. Eighty-five per cent. of this total of £170 million goes either to the old, the sick, the long-term unemployed, or to women with children.
  I quote that example to the Committee to indicate that when we introduce a large social reform, we must expect the cost to go up over the years. I do not believe that any hon. Member will grudge this money for National Assistance. Hon. Members on this side of the Committee drew attention to this increase at the time of She election, and all of us are glad of the real increase in the standard of living of people on National Assistance last year. But we have to realise that National Assistance today, even at a time of growing prosperity, inevitably costs more than any of us could have guessed even five years ago.
  My second point about Government expenditure concerns the highly important consideration of the sort of society we want to see. Here, I think I cannot do better than to quote the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr), who made such an ex-
  590
  tremely good and helpful speech in the debate the other night. He said:
  "As our society grows more affluent we must expect, and, indeed, encourage individuals to look after themselves to a greater extent than they have been able to in the past. A move in that direction is thoroughly healthy. But there are contain sectors of expenditure which, however affluent our society becomes, can never be undertaken by individuals. The individual can never build hospitals, roads, homes for elderly people, schools and universities. Therefore, as our society increases in affluence not only should we be able to afford more of These things; it is our duty to afford more of them, because there is an increasing desire for better environmental standards."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 324.]
  I believe that those words would evoke a great deal of support in Britain today. I can say to the hon. Member for Stechford that it is not only supporters of the party opposite who feel that it is no use achieving ever higher production in the private sector if we allow our public services to languish. Having said that, I must add that I agree with hon. Members on both sides of the Committee who say that we must look ahead at prospective claims on the economy in the light of the resorces we shall have available, and establish some priorities. I believe that to be just as important in the field of Government revenue spending as in the field of Government capital spending. We have long been used to doing a certain amount of forward looking in regard to capital spending, but we shall have to get used to the same concept in relation to revenue spending as well.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Does my hon. Friend accept the corollary of the view of my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) namely, that while it is an admirable thing to keep up the level of essential Government services which no one else can perform, the Government ought consciously all the time to try to shelve those things which could be done by private enterprise and thus reduce the level of Government expenditure on those things?
  Sir E. Boyle: I do not quarrel with what has been said by my noble Friend the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke). The point is that it is not always easy to see at any given time the services which ought to be dispensed with. I think that this

  591
  is particularly true about social capital spending. It is not always easy to see which—
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: There are the nationalised industries.
  Sir E. Boyle: I was about to say to my noble Friend that my view has always been that, as a party, we should be prepared to be tough and to encounter political controversy and criticisms over subsidies to consumer spending of the kind which could be held to he no longer justifiable. I was always in favour of discontinuing the bread subsidy and the general needs housing subsidy. I believe that the more valuable types of State activity are very often those types of social capital expenditure to which, I agree we have in the past accorded too low a priority.
  Finally, I would say, do not let us assume that, just because Government spending is rising, therefore we shall not be able to maintain the benefits of price stability. Of course, Government spending is one of the factors influencing the price level. But it is not by any means the only one. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor pointed out in his Budget speech, we were able to achieve last year a 10 per cent. rise in industrial production while maintaining stable prices because of the sharp increase in the rate of productivity.
  Again, an important reason for the present stability of prices is that food prices—they are an important factor in the retail price index—are 1½ per cent. lower than a year ago. That is why we can take considerable comfort from the present state of the index. But we could lose the benefits of price stability very easily if we allowed ourselves once again to slip back into a state of excess demand; and it is precisely the purpose of my right hon. Friend's Budget, framed in the light of all the present and immediately prospective claims on the economy, to ensure that this does not happen.
  For the rest of my speech—and I shall try not to detain the Committee too long —I want to say a word or two about some of the revenue proposals. I think that the reliefs in this field have been generally welcomed, certainly the increase in the housekeeper and
  592
  dependent relative allowances and the alternative allowances for widows and others with children. On post-war credits, I accept up to a point The Times criticism that in a sense we have devised a new category of social payments. But I cannot see what else we could have done other than make repayments to clearly defined categories of hardship cases. I am glad that we are to repay credits to the long-term sick. I have had more letters from hon. Members on both sides of the Committee on the question of the long-term sick than on any other matter.
  Next, I wish to say a word or two about Profits Tax. Not very much has been said about this in our debates this week, but I wish to refer to it. Profits have been rising strongly during the last eighteen months. The right hon. Member for Huyton, as I rather thought he would, made considerable play with the comparison of short-term movements in profits and dividends and those of wages and salaries. But it is only fair to remember that profits fell in 1958 when production was running below capacity; and over the whole period between 1948 and 1959 profits and dividends have risen somewhat less than wages. It remains true that in recent months profits have been running at a fairly favourable level.
  My right hon. Friend believes—and I think that he was justified in believing —that this was a sector of the economy on which it would be reasonable to lay some of the burden of the moderate degree of restriction at which he is aiming. Although the increase in the tax rate cannot be called a drastic one, it should be enough to make itself felt in certain ways.
  First, I do not believe that the change is likely to have more than a marginal effect on capital investment decisions in the near future.
  The reason for thinking this is that, even allowing for the rise in Profits Tax, the firms concerned will be getting a flow of ploughed-back profits on an adequate scale in relation to their capital programmes. Furthermore, as my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Stevens), who wound up the debate last night, fairly pointed out, they will still enjoy the benefit of the investment allowance. But a more

  593
  important effect will be to reduce the accumulation by firms of financial assets, wholly or mainly in liquid forms. This will facilitate the control of the economy through monetary and credit measures, if these come to be applied. Our previous experience in 1955, to which a number of hon. Members have referred, showed very clearly how difficult it is to make monetary measures effective when there is a state of excessive liquidity.
  Secondly, I think that the higher tax may have some effect on dividend distribution by discouraging certain increases which would otherwise have taken place. We have never believed that compulsory statutory dividend limitation was either right or practicable. One ought always to remember that if we want companies constantly to renovate their plant, it is no good supposing that we can limit dividends by statute. On the other hand, there may be times—I believe that the present is one—when some direct encouragement of dividend restraint seems justified.
  Finally, a further possible result of the rise in tax may be a slight checking effect on the further advance of Stock Exchange prices. This will not be a bad thing, either. A great deal has been said about this in the last few months. I listened to what my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) said about the effects of the tax. I am bound to say that there is really no evidence for the view that a moderate rise in Profits Tax is likely to prove inflationary. There is the interesting statistic, which I am sure is well known to the Committee, that the profit margins of electrical engineering firms in 1937, when there was a relatively low rate of tax, and in 1950, when the rate was higher, were almost identical.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: The increase in Profits Tax in the autumn of 1955 put up the cost of living.
  Sir E. Boyle: With respect, I do not believe that that was the case. I do not believe that the increase in Profits Tax had an effect on the price level at that time.
  I want to say a few words about one or two of the tax avoidance measures. Businessmen often point out to those of
  594
  us who are not members of the business community, when we take part in these debates, that we have no first-hand knowledge of the subject with which we are dealing. For my part, I find tax avoidance an extremely difficult subject to grasp, and I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of people who are active in business have little idea of the shifts to which a very small number of people will resort. One does not want to over-rate the importance of this subject and to dwell excessively on it.
  I think that at the last General Election, hon. Members opposite made far too much of a feature of the rackets of the capitalist system. At the same time, I recognise that in the modern world, when economics matter more than ever before, and when our economic performances not only affect us in this country but other countries as well, it is an extremely bad thing if too much cynicism is generated about our economic system. That is another reason why my right hon. Friend is taking action on all the major matters to which his attention has been drawn. Incidentally, my right hon. Friend never said last year that no more cases of tax avoidance were likely to arise. No one would be rash enough to say that. But he is dealing with all the matters which have been drawn to his attention by the Revenue at the present time.
  I should like to answer a question on what has been called the "hobby farming" provisions. My hon. Friend the Member for Torquay (Mr. F. M. Bennett) and one or two other hon. Members asked me about woodlands. The new test proposed for the admission of loss claims under Section 341 will apply to loss claims arising from the occupation of "commercial" woodlands as well as to losses arising from other trades and professions. This seems right when a new test is being introduced generally for the purposes of Section 341. But if the occupier of commercial woodlands who satisfies the new test of Section 341 relief has a bad year because of a lot of trees dying due to difficult climatic conditions, or because of disease, he will continue to be entitled to make a loss claim just like a genuine commercial farmer. There will be no question of owners of woodland being treated in an unreasonable manner.

  595
  In general, in applying the new provision, what will affect the General Commissioners in deciding whether to allow a loss claim will be the trend revealed in the facts brought forward by the taxpayer. If it is clear that he has taken steps to ensure that he will have a reasonable chance of making a profit in a normal year, then he should be in a favourable position. If a great deal of stock—potatoes, or whatever it may be— has been ordered well in advance of this Budget, no tax commissioner will expect anything unreasonable in the first year.
  There are two other proposals of my right hon. Friend to which I want to refer. The first is the proposal to impose tax in certain cases where certain potential trading or dealing profits are, in effect, converted into non-taxable capital appreciation. I should make clear to the Committee that this is not intended as a tax on capital gains, but as an essential part of the armory against tax avoidance with which my right hon. Friend proposes to equip himself this year. The point is that it will check devices by which profits which, in the ordinary course, would be subject to Income Tax are placed on the capital side of the line by some manipulation. That is the point of the proposal, and it is one about which the Committee need have no doubt or hesitation at all.
  The other point is the provision requiring a person who sells stock to the market cum-dividend to produce a voucher for the dividend, or to account to the Revenue for the tax on the dividend if he cannot do so. This provision is directed against a new variant of bond-washing; and the device depends on the fact that, at certain times, near the dividend date, Government stock can be dealt in either cum-dividend or ex-dividend. The difference between the cum-dividend or ex-dividend price in the market is more than the net amount of the dividend after standard rate tax has been deducted.
  If, therefore, the operator can sell to the market a net dividend, that is to say, a dividend less Income Tax at the standard rate, without possessing that dividend, he can make a profit on the deal. The manipulator buys stock ex-dividend and sells cum-dividend—that is to say, he sells on condition that he will pay over an amount equal to the divi-
  596
  dend less tax. He is not entitled to the dividend he purports to sell. But by abusing the Stock Exchange machinery, he is able to pass on, as income which has borne the standard rate of tax, a net amount of cash equivalent to a taxed dividend.
  I apologise for troubling hon. Members with this matter, but I have simply chosen the questions about which I have been asked by individual Members. I will not say anything this afternoon about the general anti-avoidance provision, about which my right hon. Friend will say a word when he winds up the debate tonight.
  In conclusion, I would suggest that there is no need for us on this side of the Committee to take too gloomy or too modest a view about the achievements of our economy during the 1950s. If we look at the eight years from 1951 to 1959, our gross domestic product has risen by almost 20 per cent. In the same period, industrial production has risen by nearly one-quarter. In 1959, gross fixed investment was 46 per cent. higher than in 1951. The amount of electricity generated was up by three-quarters and the production of crude steel by nearly one-third. At the same time, disposable incomes of persons per head rose by over one-quarter, by 27 per cent., in real terms. Consumption has risen by 19 per cent., or nearly one-fifth, and in 1959 personal savings were more than five times what they were in 1951.
  Mr. Anthony Crosland: This is most uncharacteristic. Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that to recite the figures of British increases without giving any idea of how they compare with what is going on in other countries is precisely what encourages this appalling national complacency?
  Sir E. Boyle: I hope that my next words will show that whatever my faults may be, national complacency is, I hope, not one of them. I have not the slightest desire to live in a backwater, whether it is well or badly managed. Considered in themselves, those figures may not compare too well with those of some other countries, but to the overwhelming majority of people in Britain the 1950s have been a better period in which to live than any other decade of our national history. It is always worth while to remember that.

  597
  I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Grimsby that it would be a bad thing if we were complacent and were to go no further. In the 1960s, our performance in world trade, in supplying aid to underdeveloped countries and in playing our full part as a member of the Western Alliance will be more important than ever before. I quite agree that it would be wrong for us to approach our economic future in a complacent or negative spirit.
  We must certainly adopt a purposive attitude to our economy, and wish to promote a steady increase in our real wealth. Surely, however, the hon. Member and all who feel like him will agree that the base of our forward drive, and the grounds of our success, must be our ability to pay our way in the short term and to keep the £ sterling a strong currency. If the £ were to fall again, the effect would inevitably be that we should have to sell more investment goods for the same quantity of imports, and, therefore, we should all the time be weakening our ability to compete in the future. There is, therefore, no inconsistency in desiring an economic policy which gives a high priority to stability as well as growth.
  It is for that reason that we need a Chancellor of the Exchequer who recognises the needs of the future and, at the same time, is determined to take the right decision at each conjuncture of affairs. I genuinely believe that on the present occasion, my right hon. Friend has taken a decision which is in accordance with our present needs and opportunities.
  Dame Irene Ward: Before my hon. Friend sits down, may I ask him a question? I did not want to intervene, but my hon. Friend passed hurriedly from the subject of tax reliefs. I expected him to explain why the anomaly has been retained in the housekeeper allowance for widows or widowers to the detriment of spinsters and bachelors. Will he bear in mind—
  The Temporary Chairman (Mr. H. Hynd): Order. The hon. Lady must not make a speech.
  Dame Irene Ward: I was not making a speech, Mr. Hynd. I listened to everybody else intervening, however, and I understood that my hon. Friend would deal with that matter. So I cannot quite
  598
  see why I cannot intervene as well as hon. Members opposite.
  Sir E. Boyle: I have occupied the Floor of the Committee for a considerable time. I suggest that we might deal with that on the Finance Bill.
  Dame Irene Ward: No, not at all.
  4.55 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Mulley: As usual, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has made a moderate and persuasive speech. It might well have been more honest, if, perhaps, unpopular, if that had been the keynote of the Government's economic policy that they put out last October. I know that to make comparisons between the state of play today and what it was in October is not well received by hon. Members on the other side of the Committee. This is in marked contrast to their readiness in any difficulty to find somehow that it all started more than nine years ago in the Labour Government. The hard fact is that the Government cannot escape the comparisons which, I hope, people throughout the country will make between the Budget and the brave words and the bold posters of last October.
  The Financial Secretary has made so many interesting points that I should like to take up a considerable number of them, but in the interests of other hon. Members I shall try to ration my replies to him. I would, however, take up the hon. Gentleman's final words about the great achievements, as he put it, during the 1950s. I would have thought that he was too intelligent to fall for the idea that every year is a record —in employment, in production, and so on. That is no more valid than for each of us to get up year after year and to say, "I have now reached a record age". If we have a growing, expanding economy, surely each year's figures should be better than those of the one before. The figures for the country under the management of the party opposite are disgraceful.
  Only this week, I happened to be looking at the recent report of the O.E.E.C, which shows, for example, that taking the level of industrial production in 1953 as 100, in the last quarter of last year we reached the figure of 126. This compares extremely badly with Germany, which had an increase of from 100 to 170 in the same period. In view

  599
  of all the difficulties connected with the Algerian war and everything else, the contrast between this country and France is surprising. In the period when we were moving from 100 to 126, the French managed an increase in industrial production of 69 per cent. In the same period—at least, up to the third quarter of 1959, which is the latest figure available—Italy, which many of us, perhaps, have thought to be backward in its economic activity, achieved an increase of 57 per cent. compared with our 26 per cent.
  It is all too easy and quite unrealistic to say that what we must have is expansion, stable prices and the rest of it. That is a doctrine of perfection that can never be achieved absolutely. One has to make up one's mind whether to have a little amount of risk on the side of inflation because one goes for expansion, or whether to risk the stagnation of the economy by giving priority to price stability.
  The appalling thing about the Government is that over the last nine years they have not achieved either price stability or expansion. As my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) said, when the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorney-croft) was in office they managed to achieve almost the impossible—galloping inflation at the same time as a declining production throughout the economy. Certainly, without going into the details which have been covered so admirably in other speeches by my hon. Friends, the Government seriously neglected to deal with capital investment.
  The Financial Secretary was, in a sense, too frank in his observations when he used the well-chosen phrase that he thought that last year and again this year the Chancellor had produced a Budget which the circumstances required. When he went on to talk about means and ends, I could not help asking myself the question whether the end which the party opposite had in mind was not the prosperity of the people of Britain but the electoral prosperity of the Conservative Party.
  I have heard it mentioned by Conservatives in private conversations that, whatever else one may say about this Budget, the Chancellor has left a very
  600
  substantial legacy for his successor. It seems to me that, having regard to the short length of public memory, we are seeing again the building up of a Treasury chest for dispersal at a time when it will have more immediate impact on the electorate if it is done in the years just before an election. I hope—and I say this without any particular party point—
  Mr. John Biggs-Davison: Does it follow from the hon. Gentleman's argument that he would advocate that the Chancellor should have included more tax reliefs in his Budget?
  Mr. Mulley: If the hon. Gentleman will give me a little time I shall certainly deal with that point. The short answer at the moment is "Yes". I intended to come to that aspect in a moment.
  I believe that there is a danger of repeating the pattern of 1955, and the test of the Budget will be whether or not we get expansion in production this year. It may not be possible to get expansion at the same rate as it was last year, but let us see that we are going forward all the time, so that again the Financial Secretary will be able to talk in a naive way about the record of production and so on, and not let it go down again so that an even bigger record can be shown in the year immediately before an election.
  The hon. Gentleman made some extremely interesting and fair points about Government expenditure. I agree very much with what he said and with what my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) said yesterday. It was also put extremely clearly and precisely by my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) in opening the debate for the Opposition, when he said that:
  "The real problem that we are facing is value for money, the avoidance of waste, tighter systems of controlling expenditure."— [Official Report, 5th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 206.]
  All Members on both sides of the Committee are in a great difficulty in trying to assess the amount of Government expenditure. The difficulty arises from the fact that the accounts are still kept in the form which was once described as the "penny notebook system." It is true that today the notebook would cost very much more than 1d. to contain the accounts.

  601
  The accounts are exceedingly uninfor-mative—perhaps they are meant to be uninformative. Having served on the Select Committee on Estimates for ten years, I would say that it is impossible to draw a distinction between what is financial expenditure to implement policies taken by the Government and by the House and expenditure of an administrative character to implement those decisions. It seems to me that if we are to have any reasonable discussion in the House of Commons on the question of Government expenditure, there must be an attempt completely to overhaul the presentation of Government accounts so that one can try to form some view as to the amount of administrative costs and whether the administrative costs, as distinct from the policy decisions, are going up out of all proportion to the work involved.
  While I should be the last to wish to criticise the work of civil servants, undoubtedly the system and the question of size is such that Parkinson's Law must apply. Any system whereby remuneration and responsibility depend more on the number of people working under one than on the actual financial record of the Department concerned must lead to empire-building; and although the Financial Secretary has information which is not at the disposal of the Com-witness who gives something away in cannot decide whether, on questions like the amount spent on telephones, postage and rents and all the administrative costs, there is any scope for economies.
  The Estimates Committee is placed in very great difficulty in attempting to form some opinion as to possible economies. It has no expert adviser comparable to the Comptroller and Auditor General. In my experience one has little in the published Estimates to go on, and it is only when one gets an unskilled witness who, gives something away in answer to a question that a profitable line of inquiry is opened up to members of the Committee.
  It is extremely difficult to draw the distinction which has to be drawn and which is drawn in the accounts of most commercial undertakings between administrative costs and policy decisions. This, of course, is more obvious in defence than anywhere else. While security considerations, may apply to some extent,
  602
  I think that we could be given a great deal more information.
  I feel also that the Government had a very easy ride in the defence debate on this issue because of certain policy arguments which perhaps clouded the fact that we are spending more money on defence, although, in my opinion, we seemed to have little to show in terms of additional effective defence for the expenditure.
  The Government might well consider the suggestion put by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) a year or two ago—I think that it was also mentioned in the debates by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan)—and that is whether in these days we can exist with just the one annual budget, with just an annual statement of accounts.
  Obviously, the Government cannot bind themselves or their successors over a period of years, but I think it might be of great interest and value to the public outside and to hon. Members if, when policy decisions are taken to raise old-age pensions or to implement any particular social policy, we were given the figures not only for the current year but so far as can be foreseen for the next four or five years, so that when we come to approach the general question of fiscal and economic policy we can know, in the words of the Chancellor, to what extent future revenue has been mortgaged by policy decisions already taken.
  I believe that this Committee, a Select Committee or some other Committee of the House of Commons, must take much greater interest in the scrutiny of public expenditure so as to try to see that administrative costs are kept to a minimum. I differ from the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) and others on the benches opposite in the sense that I do not regard public expenditure as such as a bad thing and think that it ought necessarily to be reduced. In fact, I should welcome substantial increases of public expenditure on matters like housing in areas such as Sheffield and other cities which have special housing problems, on education and old-age pensions. We have to draw the line between policy expenditure, the purpose of the expenditure, and the cost

  603
  of carrying out those policy decisions. My submission is that the Committee at the moment has no accounts and no information on which to form a judgment.
  The hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) asked me my view about whether or not there should be an increase in taxation this year. One has to take risks—calculated risks, it is true —to ensure that our expansion is not halted. This year there could well have been a modest relief in taxation or additional social expenditure.
  As the hon. Member for Kidderminster pointed out, we have also to consider, when looking at the national taxation picture, the fact that local Government rates have been increased by £50 million. Although it does not count in the taxation which we are considering, in the pockets of the individual taxpayer it obviously has to be considered. The Government have been extremely neglectful in not examining the possibility of local authorities financing their expenditure by means other than, or in addition to, the rates. This is an extremely urgent question if, with the block grant, etc., local authorities are properly to discharge their duties.
  I also quarrel very strongly with the Government on the particular measure which they chose by which to increase taxation. I suppose that I should declare an interest, because I shall be paying 2d. a packet more for my cigarettes. The estimated return from tobacco duties this year is £829 million and the cost of all the health services is £612 million. Therefore, if there is an argument about health, the smoker more than pays for any treatment that his folly may require him to undergo.
  I am sure that the only reason why the smoker was selected was that he is very easy meat. It is quite easy. There is no great organised lobby to protest. Someone should form a smokers' protection society, because all too often Chancellors of the Exchequer of both parties find the smoker an easy victim. One of the difficulties is that there is no means of taxing the non-smoker as such. I do not think that any tax has been thought of which would tax the non-smoker without at the same time taxing the smoker. It may be a good idea for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to offer
  604
  one of these £5,000 prizes for ideas on how to tax non-smokers to restore a little equity into the system.
  When considering the incidence of Income Tax, it is worth remembering that the personal allowances today of £140 for a single person and £240 for a married couple are very little more than they were forty years ago. In 1920, the respective allowances were £135 and £225. When one remembers the change in the value of the £ and the increase in wages, one sees the bite that Income Tax has in the system as compared with forty years ago.
  I will try now to deal briefly with the very interesting point of view which the Financial Secretary put to us about the balance of payments. If there is any justification for the Chancellor of the Exchequer's policy, it can only be because of his anxieties about the foreign balance. I do not believe that his fear of price rises would justify the Budget. It is anxiety about our balance of payments. The great failure of the Government has been that, in years when the terms of trade were in our favour and we had all the world economic advantages on our side, we failed to expand production. It is true that the terms of trade are now likely to turn away from us. Obviously any increase in consumption is likely to involve an increase in imports.
  One problem which as puzzled everyone who has tried to think about these subjects is how, in a completely unplanned economy, where quite understandably private industry seeks the maximum profit, one persuades firms to export when they can sell their goods easily on an expanding home market. We must solve that problem at some time, unless we are to be subjected always to restriction at the first sign of a balance of payments problem.
  Sir E. Boyle: If there were what the hon. Gentleman would call a planned economy, how could one force other people to take our exports if they did not want to? The hon. Gentleman is advancing an unreal point.
  Mr. Mulley: The Financial Secretary has completely misunderstood the point. My point was that the decision to sell on an easy home market was that of the manufacturer, because in that way he

  605
  would maximise his profits. I do not say—obviously one would be a fool if one suggested—that one can make people buy our exports. My opinion of the Financial Secretary is going down, after his great talk about records in his peroration and his attempt to turn a serious point into a fifth-form debating point.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary has graduated to the sixth form.
  Mr. Mulley: I accept that from the headmaster, the hon. Member for Kidderminster. This is a serious point Which needs examination, because unless we can get people to go into difficult export markets, like North America, rather than switch all our effort on to the home market in a temporary boom, we shall have this up and down, year in, year out.
  Behind the talk about the balance of payments there is a recognition by the Government of their failure over the last few years to solve the central economic problem of our time, namely, our relations with Europe. Undoubtedly we shall face after 1st July, unless reasonable understanding can be achieved, very serious difficulties in some of our export markets. While we are likely to restrict production, from the figures it is apparent that all the Common Market countries are quite naturally advancing. Apart from losing the exports into Germany—for example, with washing machines and motor cars, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton referred on Tuesday—we shall also feel stiffer price competition from some of the Common Market members in the markets of third countries. If we succeed, as now seems possible, in postponing the date from 1st July, we shall achieve only a deferment of the problem.
  We must come to grips with the question whether we can achieve some association in economic terms with the European economy. It is largely our own fault that we are in this situation. For far too long we have persisted in the idea that somehow or other, by some majority decision, we could achieve the free trade area of the original Maudling Plan. We took far too long to be convinced that that was a non-starter. I still think that it is possible to achieve some understanding, provided that we are prepared to give
  606
  tangible evidence to the countries in the Community that we not only want to be associated with them, but are prepared to make some political and defence sacrifices as well as take such economic advantages as flow from that association.
  As I have stated on previous occasions, I believe that there is room for associate members as well as full members in the Community club, provided that if the associate members pay lower subscriptions they will then receive lower benefits. But we have definitely to subscribe to the rules of the club. We must commit ourselves to Europe in a way that so far Her Majesty's Government have not been prepared to do. I put forward what I thought was a helpful suggestion in connection with defence policy at the Assembly of Western European Union. It would have been instrumental in showing our willingness to associate with Europe politically and in defence. We shall certainly not achieve the association which we want unless we make real efforts in the next few months.
  As I think the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mr. D. Price) indicated earlier, there is a minority of hon. Members who would say, "Let us join the Common Market." I certainly think that, if we could persuade the whole of the E.F.T.A. countries to make application to join the Common Market, we should. I believe that the forming of E.F.T.A. was probably a mistake, but, having formed it, we cannot now, before it has begun to operate, walk out on the other six countries. When the Chancellor replies tonight on this central point, as I see it, in our economic problems, I hope that he will tell us the Government's policy on it. We have as yet, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stechford said this afternoon, heard very little about it.
  It is in the balance of payments field rather than in terms of internal inflation that the Government can expect difficulties. If we could have a franker and more realistic appraisal of these problems instead of the kind of complaisancy with which the Financial Secretary concluded an otherwise moderate and reasonable speech, I think that we should make more progress more quickly.
  5.22 p.m.
  Mr. Marcus Worsley: I rise to ask for the traditional forbearance of the Committee on a maiden speech.

  607
  I appreciate that it is a great honour to be called during the Budget debate when there are so many hon. Members who wish to address the Committee.
  I have listened with great enlightenment to the debate. Indeed, in the last few minutes I thought that I was receiving a great deal of education. I have listened with great interest to those hon. Members executing what I may, perhaps, describe as a "fell race" over the commanding heights of the economy. I have admired the speed with which they have gone round each peak in record time. Indeed, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) included some European peaks in the tour which he gave us. All that I shall attempt is a gentle walk over Scafell.
  I am very proud to represent the constituency of Keighley. I am not the less proud because that represents a change of political allegiance for that town. I am quite sure that one of the reasons for that change of allegiance was a conviction on the part of the people who elected me that we on this side of the Committee were better at holding the value of money steady. I believe that when the electors of the country have studied the Budget, it is by that test that they will judge. I think that people will remember—I believe that they remembered last October—that prices have been stable for nearly two years. It is perhaps not altogether an accident that that period coincides pretty roughly with the tenure of office of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor.
  I come from a Yorkshire family and represent a Yorkshire constituency. Hon. Members should know that Yorkshire people always behave with becoming modesty—they have not even asked for a Grand Committee, yet. I think that Yorkshire people have certain qualities, and I do not apologise for reminding the House of them. These are what I think they are. First, I would put independence of mind; second, I would put down to earth common sense; third, I would put thrift.
  My constituents in Keighley possess these qualities to an extreme degree. Indeed, of one of the largest communities outside the borough, the town of Silsden, it is said, as perhaps of some other places, that every man there owns
  608
  his own house and the one next door. These virtues which, I have modestly suggested, belong to Yorkshiremen are, perhaps, rather old-fashioned. However, I think that perhaps they have their value in a day when opinion is often mass produced and in a country which is sometimes referred to as "Never-Never-Land".
  I believe that a Budget aimed at the stability of money and at the encouragement of thrift will be understood and appreciated in this country. We have heard a great deal about pensioners in this debate. I must confess that as a new Member I have sometimes been puzzled at the way in which certain hon. Members opposite appear to regard an adjustment of a contributory pension scheme as something to do with the Budget. I believe it to be profoundly true that it is not the case that pensioners are getting nothing out of the Budget. They have got steady prices, which is the biggest thing that they could have.
  I believe that the steadily eroding £ has demoralised a great number of people and that it has hurt most those who are most deserving of praise. I believe that it is a prime duty of this Committee, both sides of the Committee, to protect the thrifty. I cannot help feeling that over the last years—I am not trying to make a party point on this matter—it has been the hard case which has been remembered, sometimes to the exclusion of the thrifty and the deserving. There is a legal saying that hard cases make bad law. It is possible that hard cases can also make bad social policy. I would say that we have been too apt, both in pension policy and housing policy, to listen too much to the thriftless, who are always prepared to squeal loudly, and not to worry enough about the thrifty who are the people who remain quiet and proud in the face of difficulty.
  I believe this to be a Budget with the right priorities. It puts its first domestic priority on steady prices. I believe that to be sound. We should applaud the Chancellor in that he has managed, with the firmness of his touch on these matters, to include also a certain amount of characteristic humanity. The allowances I will not mention, but I do wish to say just a word on post-war credits.

  609
  We were told by previous Chancellors that special provision in the matter of the repayment of post-war credits for people in difficulties was not possible. If I may disclose a certain interest in this matter, I remember some six years ago addressing the Central Council of the Conservative Party and trying to persuade it in my inadequate way that some repayment of post-war credits to those on National Assistance would be a good thing. Unfortunately, my eloquence was not enough.
  In his concession the Chancellor has, in a small way, helped the kind of thrifty people to whom I have already referred. I hope that my right hon. Friend and the Government will not forget in future the claims of holders of post-war credits nor the great feeling which exists among them of betrayal by the Government of this country in a matter which concerns what they regard as their own money.
  I will end with a brief reference to a matter which concerns Yorkshire and the North-East a great deal, though not my constituency in particular. It is a matter to which my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary referred in his speech this afternoon—the matter of woodlands. We in the North-East are very proud of having led the pace over the rest of the country in the replanting and the restoring of our national woodlands, part of our national heritage, after many years of neglect, not only by the owners but also by the Government. As I listened to what my hon. Friend had to say, I was not altogether convinced that his right hon. Friend's laudable attempts to stamp down on "hobby farming" were not, in fact, likely to injure the legitimate interests of the woodland owner and the planter of woods.
  The difficulty with the forestry industry, as will occur to anyone who thinks about it, is that it takes a very long time—twenty, thirty or forty years —from the initial investment to the return and, on those grounds, special taxation provisions must be required. It is not just a matter of trees dying— things of a similar nature can happen in any business. There is also the matter of the actual length of rotation before returns may be expected. I therefore hope that before the Finance Bill is presented my right hon. Friend will be able to make quite sure that the great
  610
  forestry industry in the North-East is supported by the Government.
  I thank the Committee for the courtesy with which it has received me. As I have said, I find it a great honour to represent the town of Keighley, and I feel sure that, when the people who sent me here think this Budget over, they will feel it to be a good Budget, and one worthy of support.
  5.31 p.m.
  Mr. Ifor Davies: I very much welcome this opportunity to congratulate the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Worsley) on his maiden speech. Having delivered my own maiden speech only in recent months, I can well understand the great relief he now feels at having jumped this hurdle. I also congratulate him most heartily on the manner of his delivery, with which, I am sure, every Member has been impressed. We look forward to hearing him again.
  I also congratulate him on being a Yorkshireman. Of my many reasons for doing so, one is that I come from Glamorgan, where we have always admired Yorkshire's prowess on the cricket field. Now in addition, I can also congratulate Yorkshire on having returned the hon. Member to this House. I am quite sure that I express the sincere feelings of every hon. Member present when I say that we look forward to hearing more often from him.
  Having said that, I am afraid that I must here part company from the hon. Member, because of some of the controversial matters he raised. I know that a maiden speech must not be controversial, and I am prepared to forgive him, but to one point that he made I must refer, and that was his emphasis on priorities. In reply to the speech also of the Financial Secretary, we have made up our minds where our priorities stand. One of a Budget's main aims must be to promote social justice, and there is no doubt whatever what we on this side of the Committee mean by social justice.
  This Budget has been given many titles. Many hon. Members opposite have described it as a "Socialist" Budget, but my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan)— who I know everyone in the Committee looks forward to seeing with us soon— has said that the language of priorities

  611
  is a fundamental principle of Socialism. This is, therefore, not a Socialist Budget, because our first priority is to give assistance to those who need it most, and those who need it most are the pensioners.
  I do not apologise for referring to this matter once again. It needs to be emphasised again and again, because there are 5 million people today who are in dire need, and it is a scandal that there should be so much poverty amongst pensioners in a year of apparent prosperity. I raise my voice in protest that this Government in this Budget have ignored the promises they made at the last election.
  The pledge then given by the party opposite was:
  "We pledge ourselves to ensure that pensioners shall continue to share in the good things which a steadily expanding economy will bring."
  What is the economic situation? I quote what was said by the President of the Board of Trade only this week. He said:
  "The prospects for 1960 and 1961 are, clearly, a further vigorous expansion of trade, business and prosperity."—[Official Report, 5th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 229.]
  If that is true, what has become of the pledge to the old-age pensioners—a pledge repeated at the Box only yesterday? We are looking not only for pledges but for pledges that will be carried out.
  Having emphasised that the first object of a Budget should be to promote social justice, I want to refer to another object —its effect on the economic situation. I am surprised that one aspect of our economic life that has hardly been mentioned is the importance of good industrial relations.
  The Chancellor has declared that the purpose of the Budget is to
  "… consolidate and fortify our present prosperity."—[Official Report, 4th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 32.]
  If we are to meet the challenge of overseas trade, and especially the challenge of the Common Market, of which we have heard already this afternoon, we shall have to do far more than merely consolidate. We must explore every possible avenue for extension of our trade and discover new methods of improving our productive resources.
  612
  It is a truism that we must either produce of perish, but in the speeches of hon. Members opposite I have failed to sense any realisation of the gravity of our economic situation. From the other side, there have been proud boasts that our production is now 11 per cent. higher than it was a year ago, but the facts given in page 24 of the Economic Survey reveal that in the fourth quarter of last year production was still only 8 per cent. above that of the corresponding quarter of 1955—an average increase of only 2 per cent. a year. This clearly proves that we are still lagging behind the rest of Europe, and in this debate we should be deeply concerned with ways and means of increasing production.
  The great importance of this is stressed in page 8 of the Economic Survey, which states:
  "A significant feature of 1959 was that total employment rose by 300,000 …. But because of that growth in employment, there will be less scope this year than last year for increasing the numbers at work in the country as a whole. Thus the possibility of meeting the increase in home demand depends primarily on the scope of increasing the output per head of those already in employment."
  Increasing output, therefore, becomes a matter of economic urgency. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) has effectively emphasised in great detail the importance of an investment policy, and so I should like to remind the Committee of another important aspect of our economy, and that is the prime importance of good industrial relations which I believe to be the cornerstone of our economic life. I recognise at once that we already have a very proud record of good industrial relations, but that record is still not good enough. Speaking with some years of practical experience in this field, I say that there is still room for great improvement.
  For example, I am not satisfied that joint consultation, in the real sense of the word and not as a sham, is sufficiently practised in industry today. We hear a great deal about wild-cat strikes, but we do not hear very much about their causes. Many industrial disputes are the results of emotional disturbances and poor communications between management and men. Indeed, even in this twentieth century, the so-called

  613
  enlightened age, there are still managements in this country which refuse to recognise trade unions. It is unbelievable, but it is true.
  The truth is that, despite the good work achieved by the Industrial Welfare Society, the T.U.C. and many other organisations, we have as yet barely started to study the human problems of management. Indeed, it is a sad fact that we spend more on advertising than we do on industrial research. I submit, therefore, that increased productivity is complementary to good industrial relations, and that this Budget will fail in its economic objectives if mutual trust, confidence and good will are not established in British industry.
  5.41 p.m.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: Important though questions of industrial relations are, they take us some distance away from the central topic of the Budget, and the speech which the Committee has just heard from the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Ifor Davies) resembled in this respect the majority of the speeches which the Committee has heard throughout this debate, in that it did not challenge or criticise the central point of judgment by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer which is embodied in this Budget; the decision, namely, in view of the commitments which were before him and the prospects as he has put them to the Committee, whether he was justified in increasing, or ought to reduce, the net amount which, during the coming financial year, he sought to borrow.
  I listened with particular care to the speeches of the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) on Tuesday, and to that of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) this afternoon. Both were scrupulously careful not to challenge this, the essential decision of my right hon. Friend. The right hon. Member for Huyton did not call this an assignment with inflation; neither did he call it an assignment with deflation. He was most careful not to criticise at all the essential budgetary decision which my right hon. Friend put before the Committee.
  Those commitments and those prospects, in the light of which my right hon. Friend took that decision, threw up a net deficit of £331 million, the sum in the
  614
  Budget to be met by borrowing, if rates of taxation remained unaltered. His decision was that it would be wrong in the circumstances as he saw them to increase the amount which he counted upon borrowing. Indeed, he has proposed certain changes in taxation which effect a net reduction of about £13 million in that sum, and bring it down to £318 million, practically the same as was met by borrowing in the financial year that has just ended.
  I believe that it would be a bold man, and there have been few such found in the course of this debate, who would criticise my right hon. Friend for over-caution. Quite apart from the commitments inside the Budget, which appear upon the face of the Financial Statement and which throw up the deficit which I have mentioned, there are a good many commitments lying around outside the Financial Statement. For example, in the Civil Estimates for National Insurance, under the item "Contribution to the National Insurance Fund", there is this noteworthy sentence, which stands against the figure of £47 million "additional contribution by the Exchequer" in Subhead A (2) of the Estimate. This is the note to that entry:
  "In so far as this provision is not sufficient to meet the excess of the fund's expenditure over its income in the financial year, the remainder of the deficit will be met from the existing balances in the fund."
  In plain English, that means that securities held by the National Debt Commissioners will have to be sold to the public in order to realise the necessary sum, which, I understand, will amount to about £45 million in this financial year.
  Again, the Chancellor himself reminded the Committee of the additional commitments arising out of the Guillebaud Report. He reminded the Committee of the commitment in respect of doctors' pay. And there are all sorts of other elements which feature largely in a Chancellor's thinking, but are outside the Financial Statement. My right hon. Friend cannot, in this year—at least, I hope he cannot—count upon any assistance from the Exchange Equalisation Fund, for in this year we would hope to maintain, and, indeed, strengthen, our reserves of gold and foreign currencies, which means that there will be a net outflow of cash from the Exchequer. On the other hand, there is undoubtedly

  615
  the fact that 1960 is a happy year, in that maturities are remarkably low, compared with any year in the recent past or, I believe, any year in the near future.
  The feature, however, which overhangs the whole scene is that in the circumstances of the present and of the near foreseeable future the Exchequer cannot count upon any net borrowing from the public, except by way of National Savings. Indeed, my right hon. Friend was frank with the Committee, and told us that in the last twelve months, there has been not only no net borrowing, but a net outflow from the Exchequer over the whole of the field, except for National Savings. Little wonder that National Savings occupied so important a part in my right hon. Friend's speech and in his Budget proposals. They are, in fact, the only visible means available for meeting the deficit on his Budget.
  I think, therefore, that we ought to look a little closer at the history and the reality of National Savings. Until two years ago, and for the whole of the previous decade, the Exchequer borrowed nothing through National Savings. In fact, there was a slight net outflow on National Savings. The situation changed dramatically about the end of 1957, and in the last two years we have had record surpluses—a record intake through National Savings. My right hon. Friend must be counting upon an equally record intake, or an intake, certainly, of the dimensions of this year, something just short of £350 million—that is the figure, because one must exclude the special investment departments of the trustee savings banks—in order to make sure of a sound Budget.
  Why is it that there was this sudden, dramatic alteration in the experience of National Savings two years ago? I do not believe that anyone who looks at the details dispassionately can come to any other conclusion than that it was due to the relatively high, and in many cases tax-free, rates of interest which are now offered on National Savings. In fact, what we are doing—I make no criticism of it, but it is good that we should be clear about what we are doing—is meeting our budgetary deficit by borrowing for which we pay at very high effective rates of interest.
  616
  What came so suddenly could go with equal suddenness. If it should be the experience of the coming months that interest rates rise still further, then a point could easily be reached when the experience of 1957–58 would be precisely reversed. Then we should have to face the fact that National Savings are in one sense the most liquid form of Government borrowing. Not only might the net inflow cease as quickly as it began, but we might have to contend, as in the years before, with something of a net outflow.
  Against that picture, against those facts, I believe that it would be a bold man who would urge my right hon. Friend to pile another £100 million or £200 million on to his deficit.
  I want to refer here to what I would call the "Kidderminster doctrine." I do so not because Kidderminster has a monopoly in the doctrine, but, if my hon. Friend will allow me, I do it honoris causa—[Hon. Members: "Translate."] —as a compliment.
  Mr. Nabarro: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am not a professor of Greek, nor, indeed, a student of the classics. I apologise for interrupting my hon. Friend and asking for a translation.
  Mr. Powell: I am not a professor of Greek, either, though I was more than twenty years ago.
  The Kidderminster doctrine, if I may state it briefly but, I hope, not inaccurately, is that if my right hon. Friend would take a chance and remit substantial sums in taxation, then he could do so without financial or economic risk because the bread which he cast in this way upon the waters would return to him, and, in particular, would return by way of savings. This is a doctrine quite commonly inculcated, but I believe that it contains three distinct fallacies. The first is that however great the tendency of personal savings to rise—and that tendency in recent years has been one of the most encouraging features of our economy— even on last year's experience one could only count upon one quarter of the amount of the remission returning by way of savings, so that there would be a net addition of three quarters to the monetary demand which is now so dangerously near to the available resources.

  617
  The second fallacy is the assumption that personal savings are somehow a withdrawal of that amount of purchasing power. Of course, they are not. Unless the savings are held in a very liquid form, they represent a transfer of purchasing power from one type of spending to another type of spending, namely, investment spending. Therefore, the application of an amount remitted in taxation to saving in that sense of the word does not noticeably or appreciably relieve the monetary pressure of demand.
  Finally, I believe that people often confuse savings with a small "s" with savings with a capital "N.S." Even if the whole of any remission of taxation which my right hon. Friend made went to personal savings, it still would not help him—it would still leave him at risk —unless it was saved by way of being lent to the Government. I do not believe that the most optimistic of us could assume that any but a tiny fraction of any sums which my right hon. Friend might have decided to remit in taxation would return to him by way of lending to the Government.
  Therefore, I am sure that the vast majority of the Committee—and this has appeared quite clearly during this debate —believe that my right hon. Friend was right in deciding that, on the assumption of the commitments and the prospects with which he was faced, he durst not take the risk of increasing the sum which he had to meet by borrowing. But, of course, that assumption is a very important one, and a great part of the debate has been devoted to challenging and criticising it. I refer, of course, to the central Government's commitments as they face us in the Financial Statement and were the basis of my right hon. Friend's decision.
  Most notable words were used on this subject by by right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade; they were especially notable as coming from one who sits on what—I sometimes think rather ironically—is called the Treasury Bench. He said:
  "… I think that what we and the country have to face are the consequences of this growing expenditure, urged on us from all sides, when looked at as a single sum."
  He continued:
  "… the problem is essentially the lack of correlation between claims for spending on individual desirable items and the total bill
  618
  as it is presented to the taxpayer. That is the fundamental problem at present facing the Exchequer."—[Official Report, 5th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 231.]
  It is, indeed.
  In the Budget debate of a year ago I ventured upon the prediction that in the financial year 1959-60 we should find that the claims of the central Government upon the national income had ceased to fall but had risen. That has, in fact, been the case. Central Government expenditure has increased in the last twelve months at a faster rate than the gross national product, with the inevitable mathematical consequence that for the first year since the Conservative Government came into office, in 1951, the proportion of the gross national product laid out upon central account by the Government has ceased to decline, and has increased. This is bound to have important consequences for taxation.
  The effect upon taxation of an increase in the Government's claims upon the total national income can be deferred—by borrowing— but it cannot be deferred indefinitely. Indeed, we find that in recent years taxation, upon personal incomes in particular, so far from becoming lighter, has become heavier. I will not weary the Committee with more than one or two figures, and hon. Members can check these for themselves from the figures which are given in the Preliminary Estimates of National Income and Expenditure. In 1953, the percentage of personal incomes which was taken in tax, including the compulsory insurance contributions, was 12·3 per cent. It had risen by 1958 to 13-8 per cent. It stands today, and has done for the last two years, at a higher proportion than at any time since the great taxing year for ever associated with the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, 1951.
  There was an interesting article in The Times, a fortnight ago, which made the same point of the basis of the reports of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. It came to this conclusion:
  "Whichever concept of income is taken, gross, 'actual' or 'taxable', up to 1958-59 there had been no decrease at all in the average rate of tax paid"—
  that is to say, over the previous five years.
  "If anything, the average rate had tended upwards";

  619
  and the article ended:
  "… the average rate of tax paid on income has not fallen, as might be supposed—it has been tending to increase."
  On page 14 of the Economic Survey itself we find, with reference to the year 1959, that
  "despite the reduction in income tax rates in the Budget, the proportion of income paid in tax was roughly the same in the last quarter of 1959 as it was a year earlier."
  There is no mystery about all this. These are the consequences, seen in the form of the burden of taxation upon personal incomes, of what we decide to do in regard to the claim of the central Government upon the national income.
  I listened to the important contribution to the debate, if I may say so, made yesterday afternoon by the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland), who deplored the consequences which would follow from a fall in the proportion of the national income spent on Government account. The hon. Gentleman drew a line of distinction between his own party and that of my right hon. and hon. Friends who, in his words, wish
  "that public expenditure should decline as a proportion of the national income."—[Official Report, 6th April 1960; Vol. 621, c. 436.]
  There is a great deal of contradiction about this—I had thought of a harsher word—because, during the election campaign, the party opposite was anxious to convince the people of this country that they need not fear an increase in taxation under a Socialist Government. One tax after another was publicly pegged by the Leader of the Opposition. The great thing the Opposition were afraid of was that the public might suppose that there might, under a Socialist Government, be an increase in taxation. But one cannot accept a stable or rising proportion of the national income taken in Government expenditure and deny that the inevitable, inexorable consequence must be either a maintenance or an increase of the present rates of taxation.
  Mr. Crosland: I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman's extremely important and thorough argument. In fact, one could rely upon that occurring. The hon. Gentleman will be well aware that, because marginal rates of taxation are higher than average rates of tax, as the national income increases the proportion taken in taxation automatically
  620
  increases. It would, therefore, be possible, without any increase of rates of taxation, to have precisely the situation which he is now envisaging.
  Mr. Powell: I quite appreciate that, if the proportion of the national income taken in Government expenditure remains stable, then the proportion of income taken in taxation will remain stable, because these are two sides of the same account. But one cannot argue for a greater share of the national income to accrue to the Government without recognising that that means acceptance of a greater proportionate burden of taxation by the population, for, sooner or later, the point will come when the deferment which is possible by way of increased borrowing can no longer be pursued. Indeed, we are at that point today.
  This brings me to what is really, in my view, a much more serious consequence even than the effect upon personal taxation of the present proportion of the national income which is spent upon central account. This is that, whenever demand is rising, whenever there is an upsurge of activity in our country, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Government are constantly at risk of being presented with the dilemma either of increasing taxation or of gambling on being able to borrow sums which, if the Government fail to borrow, the consequence will be that the Chancellor will lose control of the monetary system and, indeed, will contribute to inflation at the very moment when he wants to do the opposite.
  That was the dilemma by which my right hon. Friend was confronted in the preparation of this Budget. Like a man, he chose the right course of not gambling upon an increased borrowing which might—indeed, I believe, probably would—have been the means of his losing monetary control and bringing again the evils from which we have been so glad to escape in the last two years. But to say that is not to agree that we can go on seeing this film round and round. Neither confidence nor the spirit of the country will stand this constant succession, at two-year or three-year intervals, of Chancellors of the Exchequer being faced with this absurd dilemma. It comes about because we are not prepared to ensure that the

  621
  proportion of our national income which is pledged to central Government expenditure is a proportion which can be borne honestly and without hardship in the honest way of being met through taxation.
  I believe that this debate has brought a substantially new feature. That is the determination of this Committee, the Committee of Ways and Means of the House of Commons, to give support to a Chancellor of the Exchequer in ensuring that the total claim made by the central Government—that "total bill" which my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade mentioned—is not such that we are constantly poised on the horns of this dilemma, but that our economic progress, subject to the natural and inevitable fluctuations of trade, investment and consumption, can go ahead without the periodic intervention—necessarily a forcible and arbitrary intervention—of the Government. If that is the meaning and upshot of this Budget debate, it will be a memorable one indeed.
  6.8 p.m.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: In discussing the Chancellor's proposals, I wish to apply them to Scotland rather than to the United Kingdom. I am sure that many hon. and right hon. Members will agree with the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) in his analysis of the Chancellor's problem if one considers it within the framework of the economic situation in the Midlands and the South. I represent a Scottish constituency, and, if there is one thing which this Budget has shown, as previous Budgets have shown, it is that a fiscal policy which may be justified by the picture in the Midlands and the South cannot be justified in the interests of Scotland. Scottish Members must view the Budget as it affects Scotland. The effect of damping down the economy in the Midlands and the South will be to make the situation in Scotland worse. If the object of the Local Employment Act is to enable the Chancellor to offset some of the ill effects of the Government's fiscal policy in the Midlands and the South, there should be some proposals in the Budget to stimulate activity North of the Border.
  Another thing which the Budget reveals is this. The Chancellor is
  622
  interested in the stability of prices. We are all interested in that. We do not want catastrophic falls in prices. We all know that if that happens it will bring ruin to everyone concerned. The gradual rise in prices eats into the fixed income group and forces wage demands and demands for higher returns on capital. This also is injurious. When the economy in the Midlands and the South, where most of the consumer durables are made and a large percentage of proprietary products are manufactured, is affected, we have the phenomenon in Scotland of a deflationary situation in employment and production. The people in Scotland suffer from the price pressures generated in the South.
  Scottish Members are now getting a surprising number of demands from the Housewives' League in Scotland complaining of high and rising prices in Scotland. Because of retail price fixing, there is often a 5 per cent. increase in the price of proprietary products in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Stirling, Perth and Aberdeen compared with the price in London. We get the worst of both worlds. We have both unemployment and higher prices. Traditionally, the position has been that where unemployment was heavy prices should be lower, but that is not the situation in Scotland. Everything that we buy in Scotland is dearer than it is in London and the Midlands. Although we have heavy unemployment and what might be called a deflationary situation, prices in Scotland are higher than they are in the South.
  The right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends are pledged to maintain full employment. Part of the price that society is paying to maintain full employment is that the Government are taking a larger proportion of the national income and the personal income of individuals. I hope that every Conservative in Great Britain will read the speech of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, because very few of them realise that a Conservative Chancellor has been taking every year an increasing amount of their income.
  Mr. Shepherd: The hon. Member's statement is demonstrably untrue. When we took office the figure was about 31 per cent., and we have got it down to 25 per cent. Last year, largely because

  623
  of the rise in defence expenditure and certain other expenditure, it went up by 1 per cent. We reduced the percentage of national income taken in taxation from 31 per cent. to 25 per cent.
  Mr. Douglas Jay: Perhaps I can help to clear up this point. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) referred to the proportion of personal incomes taken in direct taxation plus the insurance contribution. Undoubtedly that has risen over the last five years. That is different from the proportion of total tax revenue of the whole nation.
  Mr. Shepherd rose—
  The Deputy-Chairman (Major Sir William Anstruther-Gray): We must not have too many interventions from too many hon. Members.
  Mr. Bence: Thank you, Sir William. I also thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) for coming to the rescue. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West made the point that over the last six years a larger proportion of personal incomes has been taken by the Government in taxation. As the Chancellor has rightly said, much of this taxation has been for capital expenditure, Government expenditure and expenditure on Government account within the United Kingdom.
  We in Scotland pay the same taxes as people in the Midlands and the South. Individually, people in Scotland are greater savers than people in the Midlands and the South. When we compare the sum spent in Scotland on social and capital investment with that spent in the South, it is almost infinitesimal, or it is very small indeed. We in Scotland, with our 92,000 unemployed, are not getting our fair share of Government spending. An ever-increasing number of supporters of the Conservative Party in Scotland are thinking the same.
  We have heard a lot about the central Government spending too much of personal incomes. There is too much Government expenditure. It should be cut. There is an amazing pictorial chart in the Daily Express this morning showing a figure of £660 million of Government expenditure in the last seven years. The
  624
  amazing thing is that this £660 million has been spent on capital equipment which is of no use. It has been thrown down the drain. Most of this equipment does not work. Blue Streak and other things do not work. Some that work are out of date. Altogether, £660 million of the taxpayers' money has been wasted over the last seven years.
  Mr. E. G. Willis: Without the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) objecting.
  Mr. Bence: It is an amazing story. If only that newspaper had appeared in the period last September-October with the same pictorial chart, we could well have watched the results of the Gallup polls after the appearance of that chart, and there would have been an entirely different result to the election. But it came out after the election.
  Mr. Nabarro: I consistently pointed out the cost of defence before the last General Election.
  Mr. Bence: Everyone appreciates that whatever is said one day by hon. Members will have been said the day before by the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). We accept that.
  Mr. D. Price: Could the hon. Member give us some details of this article? I am very interested. What sources of information has he? I respect him far too much to believe that he rests his argument entirely on something appearing in the Beaverbrook newspapers.
  Mr. Bence: I have great respect for the newspapers of this country. I realise that a free Press in this country, in conjunction with free speech, is the best safeguard of democracy.
  Mr. D. Price: Are they accurate?
  Mr. Bence: If hon. Members read HANSARD from day to day and week to week they will see that everyone who speaks in the Chamber is inaccurate according to other hon. Members. Very few hon. Members agree with everything said by everyone else. This column in the Daily Express this morning may contain little inaccuracies in little details, but we are concerned with the whole picture.
  Mr. Ross: I do not know whether my hon. Friend's attention has been drawn

  625
  to the Special Report of the Committee of Public Accounts, containing an Abstract of Appropriation Accounts. He will find there all the details he wants.
  Mr. Bence: My hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) is an expert on this subject. He is a member of the Public Accounts Committee and I am not. I have not read this Report. I am satisfied that, in the main, the figure is £660 million. It may be a little less or a little more. It may be inaccurate on the low side. There is no doubt that an awful lot of money is being wasted by the Government.
  Hon. Members opposite complain that the Government are spending a high percentage of the personal incomes of the country. In the last three years we have debated the subject in the House and we have had Questions on the Order Paper. One hon. Member has even suggested a new industry. My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. W. Hamilton) was so impressed by the amount of money which the Chancellor was paying to all sorts of private enterprises that he suggested that we should start a new industry to manufacture begging bowls in which the firms could carry away these contributions. I have never heard any suggestions on the other side of the Committee that this process should cease. I have never heard the hon. Member for Kidderminster objecting to the £30 million to the cotton industry.
  Mr. Nabarro: A moment ago the hon. Member said that he intended to make his speech about Scottish affairs. I am one English Member who has the distinction of having addressed the Scottish Grand Committee on one occasion for fifty-five minutes on the extravagance of the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board, for example. I protested about the high level of expenditure, much of which was being wasted, in Scotland. Will the hon. Member now return to the subject of Scotland and tell us what economies he is practising?
  Mr. Bence: The North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board is one of our most successful public enterprises. It has made a tremendous contribution to the creative energies of this country.
  Mr. Willis: Even the Tory Party in Scotland admits that.
  Mr. Bence: The greatest waste of the country's resources has been in the last seven years, with the lavish expenditure on so-called instruments of defence, which are, in fact, useless. The hydroelectric system of the North of Scotland will stand for generations to produce cheap electric power for the people of this country. It is not for the hon. Member for Kidderminster to say that that is a waste of our resources.
  Mr. NabarroI said that it was extravagant.
  Mr. Bence: Nor extravagant.
  Mr. Nabarro: Very extravagant.
  Mr. Bence: Not extravagant at all. The hon. Member has this anti-Scottish attitude. I remember his contribution at the meeting of the Scottish Grand Committee. Thank goodness no one was impressed by it. He did himself a great disservice, because since that contribution no one in Scotland has ever taken him seriously. His attempts at reform, therefore, do not get the ear of Scotland. It is rather unfortunate, but when one gets the name of a comedian in the House of Commons one cannot expect to be taken seriously. No doubt the hon. Member is very competent and able, but he has certain characteristics which result in his creating that impression in the eyes of the Committee.
  Why do not hon. Members opposite complain about the use of the resources of the country in subsidising the farmers or about the cheap money for industry? I have not heard them object about that. There were no objections to the Cotton Industry Bill. There was no objection to the shot-gun marriage of the aircraft manufacturers or to what follows from that—that millions of the taxpayers' money will be poured into the aircraft industry. There has been no objection to that. I have never heard any hon. Member opposite oppose this central Government spending on these interests.
  Almost the only objection we have from hon. Members opposite is to the money which is spent on subsidising council houses. They object to that. They object to the money spent on the Health Service. But there is never an objection about the money which flows to private enterprise.

  627
  There is one point on which I have some sympathy with the hon. Member for Kidderminster. He told us that it was stupid to pay initial allowances and other fiscal benefits to industry and then, following the profitable exercise of that industry, to raise the Profits Tax by 2½ per cent. It seemed to be giving to them with one hand and taking away with the other. That is a simplification and an over-generalisation, but that is what he meant.
  Mr. Nabarro: It is also very inaccurate.
  Mr. Bence: Does the hon. Member say that it is inaccurate?
  Mr. Nabarro: Let me quote exactly what I said, from column 309 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of 5th April. I said:
  "I want to see Profits Tax, the whole 12½ per cent., totally abolished and at the same time I want investment and initial allowances totally abolished. The total cost of abolishing Profits Tax will approximately be offset by the abolition of capital allowances to industry."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 309.]
  Of course, I was confirmed in what I said by the Lloyds Bank Review of April, 1960. It was a thoroughly sound argument.
  Mr. Bence: I said in the first place that I had some sympathy with his suggestion that it was strange for the Chancellor to hand out benefits to industry through an initial allowance of 40 per cent. and then to raise the tax on the resulting profits to 12½ per cent. I would point out that I do not think that dry docks enjoy the initial allowance.
  Mr. Amory: Dry docks attract an initial allowance at, speaking from memory, the same rate as an industrial building.
  Mr. Bence: But that puts them in a worse position than a manufacturing industry.
  Mr. Amory: I ought to add, in respect of the mechanical parts of a dry dock such as the gates and machinery, that they enjoy the rates appropriate to industrial machinery.
  Mr. Bence: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for clearing up that point. I knew that there was a difference in the
  628
  rates, but I was not sure whether the dock equipment was included in these rates. I appreciate that dockside machinery is included. I understand that the Shipping Conference is still concerned about the effect which the increase in Profits Tax will have on its undertakings, in view of the fact that these undertakings do not attract, through the allowance, benefits as great as those which go to manufacturing industry.
  I want to get back to Scotland again. In Scotland we are awaiting some very important developments. We have been awaiting some of them a very long time, the Tay Bridge, for instance, and the graving dock in Greenock. We are also expecting a couple of North Atlantic liners, two Cunarders. Then there is the tremendous demand for a bridge over the Clyde down near Bowling and Erskine to get rid of the frightful bottleneck from west of the river to east of the river, and vice versa. We in Scotland expect a lot to be spent on roads, and are looking for an increase in Government expenditure on public works. That was what we were expecting, but we are afraid that a possible hardening of interest rates and the possibility of a credit squeeze, which may be justified in England, will make the situation in Scotland hopeless.
  If hon. and right hon. Members opposite spent twelve months in Scotland they would be shocked at the difference between the picture presented there and that presented here. It really is like going from one country to a quite different one—although, of course, the two countries are different countries. There is almost a different economy in Scotland.
  It may indeed be necessary, and I think that the Chancellor is quite right in thinking that it is, to put some restraint on output, but that is true only South of the Border. In Scotland that policy will be tragic in its consequences, especially if it is persisted in. No doubt it will be persisted in till near the time of the next General Election, when the ground will be prepared by the Government for that election. Unless there is stimulation of capital expenditure and capital development in Scotland any prospect of our reducing our 92,000 unemployed there to anything like

  629
  reasonable proportions is doomed. The economic; picture in Scotland is shocking. One does; not have to come down to the Midlands of England to see the need for the improvement of roads to get the traffic moving and to eliminate the congestion, the shocking congestion and the wasted effort caused by overcrowding on the roads.
  We can see in Scotland the failure to use all our resources while ait the same time we are being governed by a Government down here who, according to most hon. Gentlemen opposite, are spending far too much money from the centre in supporting all sorts of enterprises and all sorts of capital developments. We in Scotland must watch this scene being played out while Scotland plays only a very small part in the scene indeed. The two new industries coming to Scotland will employ between 6,000 and 7,000 men between them, and while they are establishing themselves and developing in order to employ that number, more than 9,000 men are likely to be withdrawn from current production in Scotland as a result, very probably, of the Chancellor's restraining Budget.
  6.34 p.m.
  Sir Henry d'Avigdor-Goldsmid: I am particularly grateful that I have been called now, because I want to say a word about one who will take no further part in our debates, Christopher Holland-Martin, late Member for Ludlow, who died this week. His contribution to Parliament is not measured in the columns of HANSARD but in the gifts he brought of wisdom and kindness, wide experience and unswerving integrity. He will be missed by all who had the privilege to sit with him in this Committee, by Members on either side.
  I am not going to follow the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence), because I have a number of things to say and there are a number of other hon. Members who have things to say; I would rather leave Scotland to his care.
  In my short experience of this Committee, this is the first Budget I have come to with real feelings of surprise. For the first time, one felt that there really was a completely open change in front of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In all previous
  630
  Budgets the lines of our economic progress seemed fairly well marked; the economy was either going too fast or too slow, and corrective action had to be taken. This year, for the first time, it seemed the choice was an absolutely open one. It was also a position of enormous possibility and offering unbelievable chances.
  With the General Election of 1959 behind us, there is no country in the Western world which offers a better chance of ten years of stable Government and full prosperity for its people. If my right hon. Friend did not feel that was the case, I can assure him that the business people of this country had no doubts on the subject at all. Hence the remarkable building up of inventories in the last quarter of 1959 and, with its corollary, a deterioration in the balance of payments. Business people were making plans for ten years ahead and. naturally, laid in stocks.
  On the balance of payments question, I should like to say one small thing. All through our debates we are haunted by the miserable size of our gold and dollar reserves, under £1,000 million. I suggest to my right hon. Friend, and I take it from the statements of his own officials, that our real monetary reserve is about three times as much as that. In addition to the figures of the gold and dollar reserves, there has also to be reckoned the dollar securities held by the Exchange Equalisation Fund of 1,000 million dollars.
  I have extracted from the evidence given before the Radcliffe Commission by Sir Dennis Rickett, at Question 13401, the fact that in the so-called dollar pool, of dollar securities, whose fate is ultimately controlled by the Bank of England, there is a sum of 4,000 million dollars. Sir Dennis Rickett's actual words are:
  "All we can give is what we hope is a reasonably well informed guess that it is currently of the order of 4,000 million dollars."
  Let us, therefore, in support of the £1,000 million we talk about in the gold and dollar reserve, take that in, and we have 5,000 million dollars on which the Bank of England can lay its hands if the need should arise. I make the point because today there seems to be completely muddled thinking on this subject. After all, what are reserves? They are really

  631
  small change. It is their movements that are important as giving information on the economy as a whole.
  I remember being in Germany in 1950 when there was not a penny of reserves in Germany, and Germany joined E.P.U. and drew out of E.P.U. every penny it could lay its hands on and put the whole lot into food. The shops in Germany were full of food. The German population were ill-clothed and rottenly housed, but they had food in the shops such as we had not in England, and they used it to build themselves up and thus to build up their economy. Take the State of Israel. I am familiar with some of it. It is a country which has never had any reserves but still manages to make its way in the world. Therefore, movements in the reserves are only a reflection of the state of a country. I quite agree that they are a useful barometer, but they are not the limiting factor which they are sometimes held out to be.
  My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, in his interesting speech today, made a point of what should be the objects of the policy. He detailed stable prices, low unemployment, the maintenance of a favourable balance of payments and, finally, a surplus available for investment in the under-developed areas. I do not think any of us would quarrel with these objectives. The decision before the Chancellor, therefore, was how these objectives could best be obtained. If one is walking on a tightrope it is just as dangerous to stop as it is to go too fast. I am sure my right hon. Friend appreciates that. The danger of taking measures to restrain the economy, as the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East has said, is that they may prove too effective.
  Anyway, the decision was my right hon. Friend's, and I do not envy him it. He took the decision to restrain the economy, for which he has been praised by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) and, I am sure, nearly all speakers on this side of the Committee. The disadvantage of restraining the economy is that it is nearly always investment that suffers. In his interesting speech yesterday, the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) drew attention
  632
  rather strikingly to the need for investment. We are faced with the disagreeable fact that in 1959 the investment in the private sector, leaving out dwellings, was less than in 1958.
  I am not altogether enamoured of these figures, because I suppose that if I were to buy a car that would appear to be an expenditure on a consumer durable, but that if I had the foresight to turn myself into a one-man company that expenditure could be termed an investment. Therefore, I feel that although we have used the word, thinking in terms of industrial plant, it is capable sometimes of abuse. But if the economy wants throttling down, what steps have we taken to do this? Frankly, I was disappointed. I was quite prepared to follow the Chancellor in his view that the economy should be throttled down, but a close study of his Budget shows that the only damper he produced was the rise in the Profits Tax.
  A rise of 2½ per cent. in Profits Tax takes only 1½ per cent. away from a company's earnings, because there is a corresponding gain in Income Tax. I ask myself whether 1½ per cent. off profits will really damp down the economy. The really striking increase in our economy this year has been in what are roughly called consumer durables. Between 1955 and 1959, our expenditure on food rose by 17 per cent., which shows the increasing prosperity of the country, but the expenditure on durables rose by 40 per cent. in the period and went up by £200 million last year. We all know that that is due to the hire-purchase boom, and hire-purchase has boomed because of the support of the banks. It seems to me, therefore, that if the Chancellor really is concerned to control the economy in that respect and is nervous about the balance of payments, the sooner we do something about hire-purchase the better.
  There is no question that the fact that the leading banks have taken an interest in hire-purchase has given these companies a respectability which they did not previously enjoy, and it has allowed people to enjoy a high rate of interest by placing their money at the disposal of hire-purchase companies with the feeling at the same time that the repayment of their deposits is guaranteed for

  633
  them by the bank. Psychologically this is very important. I am disappointed, therefore, that if the Chancellor took the view that the economy needed to be controlled, his efforts to do so were so very, very minor.
  I also follow my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West in what he said about the state of the country's borrowing power and the fact that the Government can borrow only on small savings. There is a maturity of £800 million to be met in 1961. In other words, preparation must be made for it now or in the near future, and it would be worth considering the question whether the increases in the Premium Bonds and the new Defence Bonds which are to be issued are intended to meet this maturity. If they are, that is something a good deal less than Gladstonian financing.
  The Government's attitude towards the gilt-edged market is frankly cynical. I know that it is out of order for me to quote directly words spoken in another place, but my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorney-croft) referred to the remarks of the Hereditary Standard Bearer for Scotland.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: My hon. Friend can quote a Minister speaking in another place.
  Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid: I Chink I am correct in saying that he said in another place that the Government were not going to be the sink down which surplus gilt-edged was to be poured.
  Sir Kenneth Pickthorn: Not going to put a sink under.
  Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid: That is a cynical attitude, and it is disgusting, too, when one thinks of the number of people, whose position has been raised in the House of Commons time and again, who have invested, by mistake no doubt, in 3½ per cent. War Loan and other undated Government securities and now find themselves really hard up. They bought these securities in ignorance or without full cognisance of what they were buying. It would be absolutely fantastic, of course, to put a date on War Loan as a whole, but special consideration should be given to small holdings of £500 or less which have diminished 50 per cent. The owners had an opportunity to sell at a profit but have not taken it. They
  634
  bought the stocks and they are now suffering. The Government should not be cynical about this. They should not leave these people entirely to their own financial devices, because they are really a prejudice to the Government's financial standing.
  I do not consider that the extra 2d. on cigarettes is a contribution either to the tightening up of the economy or to the balance of payments. It has not been suggested that we shall import less tobacco and the extra tax is not a hardship. It is a pure irrelevancy and something done in a most irritating way.
  I am not going to make a Finance Bill speech. I want to try to talk about the Budget and the financial situation. My right hon. Friend's Budget speech was well described by The Times as a "Somerset House Speech". I would refer only to the heads of the speech:
  "Hackney Carriages, Playing Cards. Tobacco Retailers' Licences, Mechanical Lighters. Hydrocarbon Oil."—
  a negligible concession—
  "Post-Cessation Receipts. Compensation for Loss of Office, Hobby Farming, Other Claims for Loss Relief, Deduction of Tax by the Crown,"—
  retrospective in this case—
  "Dividend Stripping, Other Tax Avoidance, Income Tax Penalties, N.A.T.O.…"— [OFFICIAL REPORT. 4th April. 1960; Vol. 621, c. 52–9.]
  I could go on, but it is really not surprising that so many of my hon. Friends were really amazed to hear this long list of Somerset House suggestions. They really felt that we were entitled to expect a lead in these days, but we did not get a lead in this Budget.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Keigh-ley (Mr. Worsley), who made a particularly attractive maiden speech, had something to say about the qualities of the people whom he represents. He talked about their independence, their thrift and their down-to-earthness. I think that in a sense that was the image we put before the country at the 1959 Election, an image of the prudent and enterprising husbandman with a firm belief in the virtues of common sense rather than in an intellectual approach, and also an enjoyment of the pleasures of this world. We put that concept before the country, and I think the country was delighted to support it.

  635
  I must tell my right hon. Friend that, in my opinion, this Budget has cracked that image. In a maiden speech yesterday, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Mr. Cleaver) discussed whether a man in his constituency who has a grocery shop and a fish and chip shop might be allowed to set the loss on one against the profit on the other, and the Chancellor intervened and said that that would be in order. Frankly, I do not think it worthy of the dignity of a Budget speech that there should be this grave doubt in the minds of the Chancellor's supporters whether little situations like that are caught by the Budget. If we really are heading for a balance of payments crisis, action should be taken. The 2½ per cent. increase in Profits Tax is, to my mind, quite inadequate; if the crisis is coming the increase should be 10 per cent. We should also simultaneously be taking action against hire purchase. If the crisis is not coming then we have the wrong Budget.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend will forgive me if I quote from the First Epistle to the Corinthians:
  "If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"
  My right hon. Friend reads history. I wonder whether he is aware of the historical parallel of Sir Robert Peel, who sat in the House as the leader of an unassailable majority. Sitting in the House after an election which he had won on the issue of protection, he suffered an intellectual conversion to free trade. It was not rotten potatoes, as the Duke of Wellington suggested, that gave Peel this conversion. He suffered an intellectual conversion, and he got his free trade, but there sprang into being against him one of the most unlikely combinations that the House in its long history has ever seen, that of Disraeli and Lord George Bentinck. Sir Robert Peel despised them. Intellectually, he did not consider them his equals, and he regarded their arguments as unconvincing. He got his Bill, but he split his party irremedially. I beg the Chancellor, surrounded as he is by so many eminent knights and even baronets—I particularly noticed the Freudian lapse of the Financial Secretary, who spoke of an hon. Gentleman on the other side of the Committee as his
  636
  hon. Friend—to resist an intellectual conversion to Socialism.
  I personally believe that it is right to order one's actions on the basis that they should be capable of, as far as possible, universal application. Therefore, I would not consider voting against a Measure unless I wanted to see it defeated, with all that that could imply for the future existence of the Government. I certainly shall not vote against this Measure, but if my right hon. Friend persists in promoting measures of Socialism and water I shall be driven to the conclusion that my constituents who voted so unhesitatingly in 1959 for Conservatism would not want to continue supporting a Government who were willing to practise Socialism in disguise. This is not the case now: we must never let it so become.
  6.54 p.m.
  Mr. William Ross: One thing about the Budget, which is really rather dull and unimaginative, is that it has probably aroused the most interesting debate of any Budget that we have had for a long time. The contributions that we have had from the other side of the Committee have given us an insight into the measure of disappointment and anger, and I would almost suggest disillusionment, of hon. Members opposite. However, one quality which should have been shown is lacking, and that is shame.
  The hon. Member for Walsall, South (Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid), like the rest of his hon. Friends, went on platforms fed with the usual stuff from the Tory Central Office about the strength of the economy, the determination of the Conservative Party to go on reducing taxation, what they have done and what they were going to do. Yet within a few months here is the proud Tory Party, which spoke about us squandering the nation's wealth, embarking on expenditure which above the line comes to nearly £6,000 million. I can remember the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) speaking when he was the Leader of the Opposition about the jaunt and jubilee of expenditure, and yet the Labour Government was not spending half that amount of money in a year.
  We are proposing to spend in the coming year £1 million a day more than

  637
  we did last year. This is the Tory Party which told the people that it would reduce Government expenditure. We have not heard a word about the National Debt. We have been told about all the things which are going up, but the National Debt has never been higher. It has gone up by £360 million. This is the "prudent financing" of the Tory Party. The funding of the National Debt alone is £40 million more this year, and the figure may well go up considerably more before we have finished if there are further changes in interest rates. This is not a very proud record.
  We were led to believe by the Prime Minister's messages to candidates that taxation would go down. We have now had sincere confessions from two hon. Members whose views are diametrically opposed—the hon. Member for Wolver-hampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), whose intellectual honesty we all recognise and appreciate, and the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro)— that personal taxation has not gone down over past years but has actually gone up.
  The Times itself on 24th March said more or less the same thing:
  "… as the value of the pound goes down and levels of price and incomes go up, a standstill in the progressive scale of direct taxation is tantamount to a gradual increase in taxation."
  That is what is happening.
  Can one wonder, then, at the dissappointment that there is in the country at this breach of promise on the part of the Conservative Party? Can one wonder at the concern on the other side of the Committee—much of it is still unspoken—that what the Budget did was to show that the Chancellor has not even made up his mind about what he should do? The right hon. Gentleman just does not know what will happen over the next year and what steps he ought to take either to prevent certain things happening or to meet the consequences of them.
  I agree with most of the things said by the hon. Member for Walsall, South, but there was one thing with which I could not agree. He said that the extent of our reserves is not quite as important as people believe. Does the remember 1951? Does he remember what happened after Suez? If he will read the memoirs of an ex-Prime Minister he will discover
  638
  that one of the things that halted us was what was happening to our reserves. If he wants to do any service to the country, he is very wrong in thinking that we can rest satisfied with the position of our reserves at the present moment. This is the kind of thing that curbs us in the kind of activity that we want to carry out, not the Suez type of activity but in respect of our commitments in the Commonwealth and elsewhere. This is the kind of thing that has taken us year after year into the kind of crisis we now face. I do not think that we have had enough speeches from Members opposite expressing disappointment and anger, but we have heard none at all expressing shame and apology to the people for the way in which they were misled last October.
  I feel very sorry for the Chancellor, who is, I understand, to have a rough time. The Kidderminster knives have been sharpened, so we are told. The dirks from Dorset will be out, and I suppose that in Brighton they are getting the paste ready in order to give the Chancellor a pasting. All this will take place some time before eleven at night, I expect, because we have seen the resolution of Members opposite in their previous revolts, including the resolution of the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke).
  We remember the speech which he made the other night, when the Government were under close attack about Parliamentary responsibility and the examination of Estimates, contracts and the like. He found it convenient, because it was getting late, to make a speech letting the Government out of their position. Hon. Members opposite will have some support from me on some of the things which they are putting forward, provided that they show some resolution. I am afraid, however, that the barks will not be followed by bites when it comes to the hon. Member for Kidderminster, the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Hirst) and the others. I do not think that there is grave danger of these threats being supported in the Lobby and by action in the House against a Government who have thrown their pledges overboard.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: If the hon. Member is referring to our failure to vote the other night, perhaps he did not see the letter that my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) and

  639
  I wrote to the Sunday Times last week, in which we explained why we did not take into the Lobby quite a sizeable group of Members. It was because the Minister answered our point about three seconds before the Division was called. If the answer had not been made in this time we should have voted.
  Mr. Ross: The noble Lord has not been listening to me. I was referring to his speech when we discussed a different Amendment from the one in his name and in the name of the hon. Member for Kidderminster. We were discussing an Amendment which insisted that the Minister should come to the House with a draft Order about contracts. The noble Lord got up during that discussion and defended the Minister. I felt that that was related to his convenience than to his principles.
  I am concerned about the effect of this Budget on the country. There is no doubt that our power in the world, our influence for good, as well as the prosperity of our people depend entirely on the efficiency of the economy. That efficiency is always relative to the efficiency of other countries which are our competitors. There is no doubt that we are lagging behind our competitors, and yet the Chancellor and the President of the Board of Trade say that we must put some restraint upon that very expansion on which our prosperity depends.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) spoke of the effect on Scotland and I shall continue with that theme, because it has been admitted that all this sounds rather unreal to the people of Scotland. I have interrupted the Chancellor, the President of the Board of Trade, and the Financial Secretary on this subject.
  Our situation in Scotland is one of tension and of strain over-riding the economy. We have in Scotland 100,000 unemployed—these are the registered figures—and behind them is a body of labour available for further expansion. We have to reckon with the unpopularity of the cigarette tax with workers in the Midlands, whose expansion has been the cause of this restraint, though I agree with the hon. Member for Walsall, South that this new tax is irrelevant. At least the workers in the Midlands have had some benefit from this expansion.
  640
  What about the workless in Scotland, however? They are not the cause of this strain and tension in the economy, yet they have to meet exactly the same consequences. They have to pay the increased tax.
  It is the same with the industrial economy of Scotland. I represent a constituency that is to get no help at all from the Local Employment Act. Between one-third and one-quarter of the unemployed in Scotland do not live in areas that are eligible for help under that Act. In Ayrshire more than half of the unemployed will not be eligible for help under the Act.
  At present in Kilmarnock the unemployed figure is more than 5 per cent. A month ago it was 7 per cent. and we welcome the change, but over this past year, while the boom has been proclaimed, together with the slogan "You've never had it so good"—what it really means is "never, never had it so good"—we have had worse conditions than we have known for many years. Now the financial policies of the Government are to affect the places in Scotland which are not covered by any special legislation in respect of assistance just as muct as they are to affect the Midlands and the London area. The Scottish economy, which has already shown itself to be specially vulnerable in these matters, is to be driven down even further.
  Any of the dubious benefits which may come from the Local Employment Act will be offset by the worsening state of Scottish industry as a result of these new measures of restraint. If the Government are really serious about doing something about the slack in the economy in Scotland, then the sooner they learn that a general policy brought about by circumstances in England cannot fairly be applied to the rest of the country the better.
  It is no good saying that these pockets of unemployment are affected by the Local Employment Act. It is quite irrelevant to the situation. When a general policy of restraint is applied throughout the whole country it will affect Scotland as much as anywhere else, and will drive up the unemployment figures even more, according to our industrial history over the past year.

  641
  I regret that the Government have not seen the warning light about Scotland. The other day a meeting was organised in Glasgow by the Scottish Trades Union Congress and Members of both sides of this House were present. The Members opposite who were there showed their interest, and the Leader of the Liberal Party—who is the only Scottish Liberal Member—was also there. As a result, a delegation of all parties in the House is to wait upon the Prime Minister before very long and ask him to do something about unemployment in Scotland.
  What is the Budget's effect on Scotland? We have heard something about what has been done in Malta, where taxation benefits have been given to encourage industry. However, this Budget will act as a disincentive to industry likely to go to Scotland. It does not end there. I think that the hon. Member for Walsall, South was right. The sting of the Budget is in the untold tail, the mysterious warning given to the country generally that the Chancellor stands ready to take further measures. I suppose that those measures will apply equally to Scotland as to the rest of the country—monetary measures like the Bank Rate and the credit squeeze. That is what has caused the trouble in Scotland. While the Government say that their measures are for the benefit of the economy's stability in the long run, that is not a very pleasant creed to preach to people who have been unemployed not for just a few day's, but for more than six months, or even for a year.
  I appeal to the Economic Secretary to commend to the Chancellor the speech which he made in Elgin before the election, when he promised that he would never rest while unemployment in Scotland was so high. I hope that he will devote himself to the task of introducing taxation benefits to enable new industries to come to Scotland and to help existing industries to expand, and not to restricting those benefits to areas to which the Local Employment Act applies. Let the Government forget the Local Employment Ac, which contains nothing which has not been available since 1945 and available to the present Government since 1951.
  The first test of the new application of those powers was the introduction of the motor car industry to Scotland. In
  642
  the opinion of Conservative as well as Labour Members, it failed that first test. The Government say that there are many jobs in the pipeline, but how long is the pipeline? It is a bagpipe line. We are rather tired of the tune that the Government are playing. This pipeline is about five years long.
  Mr. Bence: It is all wind and no pipe.
  Mr. Ross: It is a Kidderminster pipeline, in other words. When the hon. Member for Walsall, South made his quotation about the "uncertain sound" of the Chancellor, I thought that he intended to use another about the attitude of the hon. Member for Kidderminster towards his own Front Bench—
  "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."
  The doctrines of the hon. Member for Kidderminster and their effect on the economic situation do not commend themselves to the people of Scotland.
  Hon. Members opposite stand condemned for their failure to keep their promises. They stand condemned by the continued irrelevance of what they are doing in this Budget and by the present economic situation. No one could listen to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West without appreciating that we stand on the edge of a crisis. If the hon. Gentleman had followed the logic of his own argument, he would have told the Chancellor that taxation should have been raised still more. That was the logic of his argument and that of the hon. Member for Walsall, South. There is a failure of leadership, because of a failure to tell the people the truth.
  The truth is that an artificial boom based on consumer goods is something which cannot possibly be in the true interests of the country. We do not live by importing sheet steel, manufacturing motor cars and selling them to ourselves. We do not get the right attitude by this kind of easy-living philosophy which the hon. Member for Kidderminster proclaims and which the Government followed last year. We are not facing the economic facts of the world when we do that and when the Government say how well we are doing as a nation, when as individuals we are more in debt than we have ever been.

  643
  That is the relevance of our attack on the easy money gentlemen who avoid tax. Most people in this country pay their tax, if grudgingly at least with a smile, but the knowledge that there is a section of the community which avoids the full payment of taxation—probably legally, although some illegally—causes more than irritation. The tax-free entertainment racket is the sort of thing which rocks the country's solidarity.
  I hope that in the Finance Bill the Chancellor will set himself the task of attacking tax avoidance. That kind of thing cannot be justified when at the same time the Government say that this is not the time to deal with old-age pensioners. We cannot take one Budget alone. The last Budget gave away £360 million, and we now have a Budget following a great prosperity election when we were told that the old-age pensioners would share in that prosperity. There is nothing for them. If the Chancellor were honest he would say tonight that there will be nothing for them.
  The plans are laid. In future, everything will be done under the new National Insurance legislation and any additional benefits which a Tory Government may give to old-age pensioners will come through National Assistance. The Government have said nothing about old-age pensioners in the Budget, because they intend to do nothing about them. However, do not let them blame us when we raise the subject. Do not let them say that this is not the time for making an attack on these things.
  I shall be with the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South and the hon. Member for Kidderminster if they return to Parliament's duty to address itself to Government expenditure and to the proper examination of Government expenditure.
  Mr. Nabarro: I am grateful.
  Mr. Ross: I have been doing that for a long time, before the hon. Members took an interest in it. It was my privilege for about ten or twelve years to be a member of the Select Committee on Estimates and eventually to be its vice-chairman under the chairmanship of Captain Waterhouse. I had a fair training in the examination of Estimates. We produce Report after Report of the Estimates Committee but those Reports are
  644
  never discussed in the House. They contain valuable information which would Temind hon. Gentlemen on the Tory back benches of what goes on. Reports from the Public Accounts Committee also are produced year after year and are a mine of statistical information. They contain dramatic stories of the waste that goes on in relation to Government expenditure: not just the odd million, but even a hundred million.
  The last Report produced evidence of waste and miscalculation in relation to guided missiles. It equally produced evidence in relation to how the Government were deceived by some farmers in Scotland for ploughing-up grants. All Government Departments are gone into, and if the House would address itself to discussing the Reports of this important Committee we would be in a better position to challenge the Executive.
  Mr. Alan Green: I presume that the hon. Gentleman appreciates that the Select Committee does not deal with policy. It is not allowed to do so. It is policy about which my hon. Friend has been talking.
  Mr. Ross: When one examines the Estimates, one quickly comes to an opinion about where the policy is right and where it is wrong. They lay bare the weaknesses in respect of each Department. That is why they should be discussed and examined not only in relation to the Estimates but to the policy.
  While the Committee is limited in relation to policy, the House is not limited in relation to discussing policy. When we come to the Finance Bill, if the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South and the hon. Member for Kidderminster return to the question of Parliamentary responsibility, I hope that they will show their effectiveness by treading the carpets in the Division Lobby.
  I think that I have said enough to express my disappointment and anger, not only with the Government in relation to the Budget but in relation to hon. Gentlemen opposite. No wonder they are divided. No wonder they are angry. No wonder they are disappointed. I regret that they have not shown their true sense of shame in relation to the way in which they have treated the people of this country since October last year.
  7.23 p.m.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: If the British are true to their political genius, there will be a Parliamentary crisis before long when the issue is ripe. All external events point to it, and I hope and trust that it will be of the healthy sort such as occurred in the period between 1900 and 1906. Meanwhile, we all go on in the grooves of our gramophone records mouthing the same things without much effect, without great Parliamentary enthusiasm, and without a very notable gallery of listeners.
  The hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) is a very good gob-stopper, if that is a proper phrase. My children tell me that it is a delectable sweet, so I do not think that there can be anything very un-Parliamentary about it. He has been put in by the party Whips, as have other hon. Gentlemen, except the leaders at the beginning and end of the debate, at short notice to fill in the time, and to claim a certain amount of attention for the Labour Party, which has nothing to say in this Budget debate because it is not in the least bit roused by it, either positively or negatively.
  The speeches that we have heard this afternoon have, on the whole, been extremely sombre, as befits a half-empty Committee. Indeed, the only speech which was scintillating in this debate was the only one delivered to an absolutely packed Committee—except when the Chancellor himself spoke—by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. Wilson).
  The Evening Standard said of the right hon. Gentleman.
  "Mr. Harold Wilson's speeches on the Budget from the Opposition Front Bench are now established as one of the most attractive events in the Parliamentary calendar. Yesterday, he gave another sparkling performance, assailing the Tories with wit and verve.
  During the absence of Mr. Bevan, Wilson has added opportunities to secure a dominating position in Parliament. There is every sign that he is doing so.
  Advancement in politics depends on the skilful playing of all the cards available. Wilson has one particularly powerful ace—his birth certificate. He is only 44."
  I have often thought that there was a marked resemblance between the right hon. Member for Huyton and Walpole, that famous Parliamentary Whiggish figure. I think that Walpole, when he was 44, was making money speculating
  646
  on his own account and on account of Queen Caroline in South Sea Bubble activities. The South Sea Bubble exploded the following year, and it is not reported what happened to the fortunes of Mr. Walpole or Queen Caroline.
  When he was 45 Walpole became Prime Minister and Leader of the House. If the right hon. Member for Huyton thinks that he has any such opportunity, it is unlikely to be achieved, in spite of some of the shortcomings of the Government to which I will refer in a moment or two. At any rate, I think that Macaulay, whom the right hon. Gentleman quoted against me the other night, probably got him right, as well as Walpole, when he said that he loved power so much that he could not endure a rival.
  The right hon. Gentleman's speech was fascinating and agreeable, as has been reported in the Press, and as we all know. It was about the only one that was. From our side of the Committee there have come speeches of marked distaste for this Budget, and from hon. Gentlemen opposite there have been produced speeches of no intellectual content whatever, no excitement, and no enthusiasm. I should like to know how it comes about that that situation is created. It is not very long ago—indeed, it is within living memory of us all—that Chancellors of the Exchequer from both parties in the House produced Budgets that received tremendous acclaim and support from their supporters, and roused elements of direst fury and resentment on the other side of the Committee.
  I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, I understand, cannot be here just now—he has been very assiduous in his attendance and one cannot expect to have the most notable political figure on the Front Bench present when one speaks—how it is possible to arrange a Conservative Budget, a national Budget, that does not satisfy the basic political requirements of the House of Commons and does not satisfy tradition.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid) regarded the Budget as a fiddling one which gave no lead to the nation. I agree with every word that he used in that connection. What has happened in the higher

  647
  reaches of the Cabinet? What has happened in the Treasury that a very marked and notable political figure, who, not long ago, came from the back benches of this party with universal acclaim, with great enthusiasm, as a man of the future, has been able to make the sort of Budget speech he made to the country in the last few days? Why is it that there is so little enthusiasm on the benches behind him and no marked discontent on the benches opposite?
  Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorney-croft) made an excellent speech, the burden of which was that it was essential, now that expenditure had been sanctioned, passed and was in the process of being embarked upon, to produce a Budget which equated expenditure with revenue and satisfied the requirements of the Exchequer. My right hon. Friend complained that the expenditure was too high. He drew attention, in a way that has not been done previously, to the very strong stand he took two years ago. He helped us to understand that it is necessary to economise in the interests of the nation. I can see the point of view which my right hon. Friend takes—the view that expenditure comes first; that if it is high we must face the unpleasant consequences and produce a Budget to match it—although I shall have something to say on that shortly. But I ask myself whether that is a fundamentally true picture of our finances.
  We can put the question in the time-honoured way: which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Can anybody put his hand on his heart and say that the depletion of funds must precede their replenishment, or vice versa? I go to church on Sunday. I do not know whether I go to church to shrive the sins of the previous week, or to give myself grace against the dangers of the succeeding week, and it seems to me just as true to say that the Budget proposals initiate expenditure as it is to say that the expenditure initiates the Budget proposals.
  We can stop sinning when we like. I hope that I stopped sinning last October, when I left out of my election address half the Tory manifesto because I thought that it was intolerably inflationary, and would operate against the higher ideals of the British people. I fought my
  648
  election on something much more moderate, and it apparently worked the trick, because here I am. My hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) did not start quite so soon. He started not many weeks ago, in connection with the absurd proposal for Government lending to the iron and steel industry. I am not saying that he has never ventured to put forward views on economics before, because he has, and we all know them very well, but on this school of argument he did not start at quite the same moment that I did.
  Mr. Ede: What did he put in his Election address?
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: My hon. Friend has now caught me up, and his primary end, along with mine, is to see that the process of concessions, of reducing the power of the State and its demands upon the economy, and of giving more private freedom, begins now.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth says that he will join us next October.
  Mr. Peter Thorneycroft Mr. Peter Thorneycroft (Monmouth) indicated dissent.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I can appreciate the philosophy of his outlook. It has been put forward by other of my hon. Friends, including my hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Mr. C. Osborne).
  They will not start now, because they say that what is happening now is the consequence of what preceded it. They will start in the expenditure year, next October, on their big campaign to stop the Government from doing the same thing as they have done this year, to get them to reduce the impact of their affairs upon the life of the nation and to secure more private freedom. I have no objection to this. The point is that we are all going in the same direction, and the whole thing will roll up in the end. My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) wants to keep his fishing grounds at the full extent of the three-mile limit from my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster, but he will find that his three-mile limit has expanded to six miles before he knows where he is, and he will be in the same net with all of us.

  649
  I said that I would try to put forward another ground for starting this operation now and not waiting until next October. It is a fairly conclusive ground. I should like to put some figures before the Committee to reinforce the view that tax reductions can be made now without inflationary consequences arising. I fear that my next remarks will necessarily sound like the recital of about seven of the twelve tribes of Israel out of Revelations, but I will say them as quickly as I can.
  The present Home Secretary's 1954 deficit of £397 million—an overall above-and below-the-line deficit—was followed by a 10-point increase in the cost of living over the following two years. His 1955 deficit of £436 million was followed by an 8-point increase in the cost of living over the next two years. The present Prime Minister's 1956 deficit of £343 million—the Committee will note the enormous size, regularity and similarity of these overall deficits—was followed by a 5-point increase in the cost of living over the next two years.
  The 1957 deficit of my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth, of £125 million, was followed by a 2-point increase. The 1958 deficit of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer—who, I am glad to see, has been able to return to his place—of £236 million was followed by no increase in the cost of living, and his Budget last year, with a deficit of as much as £721 million, has been followed by no increase in the cost of living—so far.
  I claim from those figures that the external events—the other fiscal measures that are taken, which need not be specified, but which include even such matters as Government exhortation, which I dislike very much as a policy—are far more effective than an overall Budget deficit of £100 million, £200 million, or £300 million. In those circumstances, I say that the Chancellor could have produced a deficit of at least £100 million more than it is this year and could have given that away in tax reliefs.
  This is an economist's and an accountant's Budget. This is a Budget which lacks imagination. It is not a statesman's Budget; it is not a Budget of somebody who is deeply concerned about our social situation. I complain not entirely that taxation has not been remitted by the means that I have just described; I
  650
  complain of the complete failure to start reorganising our tax structure. We could have had the beginnings of a transformation in the tax structure of this country and yet have maintained the total yield of taxes sufficiently high to satisfy those timorous people who are afraid that another £100 million given away will result in an unbalanced situation and a drain on our gold and dollar reserves.
  That has not been done. I want to ask the Chancellor to tell us tonight, if he would be so good, why has he neglected this opportunity? Why has he not absorbed the messages which have come from the Conservative Party? Why has he studiously avoided putting into effect some of those specific recommendations of a most expert committee of the party which he knows very well? He has slighted that committee in a waspish, donnish way which, I think is quite intolerable for distinguished people, like my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South, who took a great deal of trouble about it, to say nothing of one of my best political friends, who has passed away in the last 48 hours, and who did wonderful work on this subject. It is a very serious slight for a great public figure to perpetrate on his party.
  I should like very briefly now to say what I think some of the structural changes might have been. I do it within the context of three propositions, which I should like to give very briefly. The first is that business is allowed to escape from the consequences of high taxes and that, broadly speaking, the professional classes are not. We had an admirable maiden speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), in which he referred to the ever increasing impact of Income Tax and Surtax on the qualified professional classes, those round about the £2,000 mark, who have attained considerable positions as the result of their early training and their intellectual capacity, and who are marrying and starting up in business.
  It is perhaps unnecessary to enumerate to the Committee the sort of people one thinks about in this connection— educationalists, scientists, technicians, members of the Armed Forces, either active or retired, bishops, priests and clergymen, local government officers, civil servants, judges and magistrates,

  651
  solicitors, salaried staffs. While I have been sitting here I made a note of some descriptions of professional classes which are not allowed today—such is the structure of our Income Tax—to enjoy the same kind of standard of living as the commercial classes.
  I think that there is something to be said for the State, in a period immediately after a major war, deliberately, by various devices, to encourage the commercial classes to re-create the high standard of living of the community. But when we have an affluent society; when we have a situation where every council house today—and we glory in the fact—is filled with aids to the good life, or nearly so; when we have a standard of living which surpasses that of any other country in the world—save, possibly, Sweden, or the United States— is it not time to do something for the people who work by brain rather than by hand; for the people who give the leaven to the community; who do the voluntary work; who are of decisive importance to the welfare and well-being of our society? To allow those people to continue to be taxed by direct taxation at the rate they are seems to me quite extraordinary.
  Then I make another proposition, that those who spend are those who should pay taxation and that saving and investment should be rewarded. That would lead to a diminution of direct taxation and an increase in indirect taxation. I know that the Labour Party has always disliked the idea of indirect taxation. I am not sure whether it is of the same way of mind today. If we are trying to secure increasing investment; if we are trying to leaven society with voluntary activities; if we are trying to find some peace and easement of mind for study and quiet reflection, surely those who make life a tremendous industrial excitement—and strain, if hon. Members wish—those who get the maximum out of it and want the maximum from it, are the people who ought to pay the taxes.
  I do not want to go into a philosophical dissertation on this subject now, because it would only bore the Committee. It is a matter more the subject for a lecture than a debate in this Chamber. I feed instinctively and very deeply that the taxation system today is miscast for the affluent society in
  652
  which we live, but there is no sign of that coming from my right hon. Friend in his third Budget, no sign whatever. I wish to know whether the Chancellor holds any of these views, whether he is in the least bit unhappy about the present tax structure, and why he has not begun to give indications of a change.
  Finally, I have a note here that high working-class standards eliminate the need for differential taxation. Before Keynes, in the time of Lloyd George and those radical Liberals who, by and large, devised the present taxation system— which has not been altered sufficiently in my view—the only way of providing for the needs of the poor was to tax the rich. Indeed, one of our failures before the war, when Mr. Runciman was President of the Board of Trade and Mr. Neville Chamberlain was Chancellor of the Exchequer, was the refusal of the Government to take a position complementary to the aggregate of private spending in the country.
  Then the Government took the same view as private spenders, that when times were bad they should not spend, when unemployment was rife the State must draw in its horns. That was the theory until Lord Keynes came on the scene. The only thing they could think of to alleviate the hard-pressed masses in those days was to impose penal taxation on the well-to-do.
  Now we are in the post-Keynes period. Cannot the Labour Party see that the great impact made on the liveliness of the masses of people of this country is made by their own endeavours and by the deliberate activities of the State, and with this process, the redistribution of taxes is not of fundamental importance at the present time? For that reason I would make a start on Estate Duty, on Surtax, on Profits Tax and the very high grades of Purchase Tax. Why should we still allow so-called luxury industries to be curtailed and held back because of the imposition of large taxes? I would begin to sweep away all forms of differential taxes and I want to know why it is that the Chancellor has not found room for this theme in his Budget this year.
  Were there time, I would have liked to go a little wider than our present deliberations on the Budget and say

  653
  something about certain implications of the wage claims, the Guillebaud Report and other reports which come to hand constantly. But I will leave that for another occasion.
  My right hon. Friend's supporters—I estimate them at approximately half of the Conservative Party—claim that this Budget is a sort of Pandora's Box. They mean that it contains everything that is ugly except Hope. Hope for next year, that is what we are told. This pigeon's egg lying on the window sill will crack itself and open in another twelve months—
  Mr. Bence: It will be addled by then.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: It was addled when it was laid.
  Mr. Nabarro: Rotten, squiffy thing.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: My hon. Friends say that this Profits Tax increase is a wonderful thing, because next year it will create a wonderful nest-egg, a pigeon's egg, which will open up and reveal tremendous opportunities and benefits for all. Why do they lay that flattering unction to their souls? There is no fund, there is no chest. The Exchequer is an account. Things that go into it are put down in ink and things which come out of it are put down in ink. Surpluses have to be created de novo every year.
  If, in twelve months' time, we have a crisis on our hands, an emergency of some kind in Africa, or the Middle East, the Budget will be very different from what it is today and so the opportunity will have been lost in this year to make satisfactory transformations in the life of our country. We cannot wait in these matters for a happier day to arrive It is the duty of statesmen to eradicate the evils of society when they arise and it is their duty, also, to bestow benefits when the need is proved.
  Life is not so nasty and brutish as it used to be, but it is still hard for many millions of people and short for all of us. Why does the Chancellor of the Exchequer neglect his opportunity in the time which is given to him?
  Before I sit down I am compelled to say something about those very senior members of the Cabinet to whom, no doubt, the Chancellor refers before framing his Budget speech. I believe that
  654
  the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary are political disciples of the 1920s. They are the orphans of the economic storm which supervened after the end of the Great War. It needs genius to jump oneself out of the framework of political thought which one dwells on in middle life. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), if he were even more active in our political events than, in fact, he is, would be doing today what he did in 1902, as a young Tory, when he went to the Constitutional Club and called for peace, retrenchment and reform.
  Mr. Emrys Hughes: He joined the Liberals then.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I am sure that that other genius, Lord Keynes, if he were alive today, would be operating this theory in reverse. He would be giving counsel to us in a situation of incipient inflation and almost permanently over-full employment to follow the lines laid down by that other very famous economist, Mr. Colin Clark, who said that it is axiomatic in a free democracy that if the State takes more than 25 per cent. of the spending power of the entire nation inflation will result because the people cannot be induced, in a free society, to cut their commitments by what the State itself demands. I am certain that we are in that kind of situation today.
  It is true that we have "never had it so good". It is true that the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have arranged a sort of society which gives a great deal of satisfaction to millions, but I am conscious of some matters which terrify me as I look around the world today. There is a weakness in policy both at home and abroad, particularly abroad. At home, the Government give way to every single pressure that comes to them, except from their own supporters. I believe that the cynicism of much of our youth, the demoralisation of much of our social life, the introverted forms which some science and nearly all art are taking today are due in part to the prodigality of Government, to their sloppy methods and to lack of inspiring leadership.
  To some extent in this country today, as the works of writers and philosophers have told us, democracy is on trial. I believe that as political parties we are

  655
  guilty now and have been guilty in the past of competitive devaluation of social and moral standards in the community. I am sorry that this magnificent opportunity has not been taken this year. It will be our duty, in the years ahead, to brace ourselves to pursue some of the finer instincts of our society and some of the higher ideals of our people.
  7.56 p.m.
  Mr. Bruce Millan: We have had a very interesting speech from the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) and I wish to begin by saying something about some of the things he said. On his criticisms of the leaders of the Government, I am naturally delighted to say that I have reached the same conclusions as he, if for different reasons.
  I am not going to follow him in that, but I want to say something on the question of taxation reliefs in relation to inflation. We had from the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), as we have had from the noble Lord, the rather startling thesis that taxation reliefs would not have an inflationary effect. I thought that that argument was answered in anticipation, as it were, by their hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell). I think he gave an admirable analysis of the situation and demonstrated how impossible it was for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have done anything in the way of tax reliefs this year without encouraging inflationary demand.
  I want particularly to say something about what was said by the noble Lord on the question of the tax structure. I had great expectations when I heard him say that he would like to see considerable improvements in the taxation structure because that is something which we on this side of the Committee have been saying for a considerable time. The noble Lord first mentioned professional people, particularly those with incomes of about £2,000 or £3,000 a year. No one likes to pay Income Tax, or any other kind of tax. I dare say they feel, as all of us tend to feel, that they are particularly hard done by, but I have to remind the noble Lord that there was a considerable amount of Income Tax relief in the 1959 Budget and there have
  656
  been considerable Income Tax reliefs in previous Conservative Budgets which have favoured professional people and people round about that level as much as anyone else. Our quarrel on this side of the Committee is not that too little has been done for those people, but that too little has been done for various other members of the community who are far more deserving.
  Another interesting argument of the noble Lord was that the amount of direct taxation today was too high, that we ought to reduce it and increase indirect taxation and taxes on expenditure. I find from Table 21 of the Economic Survey that the taxes on expenditure are almost as high as the taxes on income. Let me quote the figures for 1959. The taxes on income were £2,777 million and the taxes on expenditure were £2,485 million. The taxes on expenditure are already fairly near the total taxes on income. In the opinion of hon. Members on this side of the Committee, it is the taxes on expenditure which have tended to become too high in recent years and the direct taxation on income which is tending to become too low.
  When he came to his practical conclusions from this analysis the hon. Member talked to us about differential taxation. I was not sure that I followed him when he spoke about the general principle, but there was no difficulty in following his conclusions about death duties, Surtax and Profits Tax. There was a contradiction when he talked about Purchase Tax, because he asked for a reduction in the higher rate of Purchase Tax on certain articles. I would point out that Purchase Tax is one of the major taxes on expenditure which, three or four minutes earlier, he told us we ought to be decreasing.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I am in favour of a 15 per cent. Purchase Tax all round.
  Mr. Millan: I ought to have said "increasing", then. That still does not explain the contradiction, and it certainly does not meet the point that the differential rates of Purchase Tax ought to be under consideration, because they tax certain goods which are necessities for everyone and certain goods which are luxuries. We on this side of the Committee have no compunction at all about higher rates of taxation on luxury

  657
  goods, but we show considerable disquiet about any Purchase Tax on necessities, which is one reason why we were so distressed about the 1955 autumn Budget.
  If the hon. Member wants to revise the tax structure in any dramatic way, I suggest that he should look again at Table 21 of the Economic Survey. I have already quoted the taxes on income and expenditure, and I will repeat them. In 1959 the taxes on income were £2,777 million and on expenditure £2,485 million. But the next figure is the most startling of all, because it is of the taxes on capital; and they are only £213 million, about one-twelfth of the taxes on expenditure and one-thirteenth of the taxes on income.
  It happens that a great deal of the prosperity and a great deal of the extravagant spending of the last few years have arisen directly from capital accretion and capital gains, which are not subject to taxation. There is a very strong case, on these figures in Table 21, quite apart from moral considerations, for the Government to consider the whole question of a capital gains tax. If the noble Lord, who has been looking at things afresh, as I think he has been trying to convey to the House, will look at them afresh from that point of view and consider what we might take in taxes on capital, he will not only have the support of the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) and one or two other hon. Members opposite but will have the universal support of this side of the Committee.
  One main theme of the hon. Member and his hon. Friends, and it was also the main theme of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, was that at present we have an excessive amount of Government expenditure. It occurred to me, listening to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, that his analysis, the logic of which I think we all accept, stopped short. His conclusion was that Government expenditure was too high and that while it was running at the present level, with a prospect of increasing, the Government's various difficulties were incapable of solution— certainly incapable of solution within the philosophy of hon. Members opposite.
  If we are to talk about reducing Government expenditure, there is an obliga-
  658
  tion upon us to say in which directions we want to see Government expenditure reduced. We have had a certain amount of detail about this from hon. Members opposite, but it is noticeable that in so far as they particularise at all, they talk about Government capital payments and they do not talk about Government payments out of revenue. But it is Government revenue payments which are particularly important from this point of view, and they re-present considerably more than capital payments. If we are to talk seriously about reducing Government expenditure, we must then talk about reducing Government revenue expenditure, and we are entitled to ask hon. Members opposite in which directions they think that that expenditure should be reduced. Naturally there is considerable reluctance on their part to say anything about this because it is political dynamite.
  We had some rather vague references from the right hon. Member for Mon-mouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) on this question. He talked about the Welfare State, and he talked about education and housing. Again, however, there was a complete lack of detail. It seems to me that we can take seriously the arguments which we have had only when we are given this detail. If we are given it, then we shall be able to argue the matter out not only in financial and economic terms but also—which is just as important—in political terms.
  I am convinced that the whole trend of Government expenditure which we have had over the past few years is bound to continue in an upward direction in the years to come, and we on this side of the Committee are perfectly frank in admitting that we see nothing wrong in that. The claims on Government expenditure are bound to increase, sometimes for Welfare State reasons but often for economic reasons. After all, education is not solely a part of the Welfare State; it is also a very important way in which we can strengthen our economy, because our economic progress depends on a sound educational system, on an increasing amount of technical education and on getting the qualified people that we need into teaching, universities, industry and commerce. Our educational expenditure, therefore, has a direct economic effect and is not to be treated simply as part

  659
  of the Welfare State. We know that education is one of the main items of Government expenditure which is expected to increase over the next few years.
  If it is true that Government expenditure will increase, are we placed on the horn of a dilemma, as the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West said that we were? I do not think that we are, provided that we do certain things. One of the points which struck me particularly about the hon. Member's speech was that he dealt with the situation completely in monetary terms. I think I am right in saying that during the whole of his speech he made no mention of production or the gross national product, and it seems to me that that is a fundamental objection to the arguments which he was putting forward. I would rather place the emphasis not on monetary terms but on the question of the gross national product and on industrial production.
  What we want is a sufficient increase in our production year by year to enable us to meet all the demands which the community, the Government and we as private individuals are putting on the gross national product. What we want is an economy which can expand steadily year by year, and which we have signally failed to have in eight years of Conservative Government. We have had an economy which takes a great jump forward and then spends the next two or three years recovering from it. Last year we had one of the jumps forward. Now we seem to be moving into a situation in which we shall not only seek to consolidate our position but, if a crisis occurs, perhaps go backwards again.
  This is not inevitable. It is not happening in every Western country in the world. I was very impressed by the figures quoted in the debate yesterday by my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland). He said that since 1955 the percentage increase in the gross national product in the Common Market countries has been 29 per cent., whereas in the United Kingdom it has been only 11 per cent. over the same period. He quoted various other figures about our production which demonstrate that Britain has begun to fall behind in the production race. Until recently we
  660
  considered ourselves the leading nation in Western Europe, but we are very rapidly losing that position, if we have, not already lost it.
  My hon. Friend also quoted the figures for investment, which I think are equally striking. He pointed out that investment in this country, excluding housing —which is not so important from the direct economic point of view—was only 14 per cent. of the gross national product as against 17 per cent. in the Common Market countries, countries which will be very serious competitors of ours in international trade in years to come, and just on 20 per cent. in Germany.
  Surely one of the significant features of the present economic situation here, one of the major difficulties which we have, and one of the reasons for the recurrent crises is that our investment is not high enough. It is true that our investment went up in the last year, although the increase was not evenly spread. It is also true that we shall get increased investment in the years to come. But it is at this very point that we begin again to hear the Government talk about the probable necessity of exercising some restraint on the economy. That means that, presumably, they will think again in terms of the Bank Rate, monetary restrictions and restrictions on credit, which will lead to a reduction in investment.
  We have had a large increase in production over the past year. This came largely by taking up the slack in the economy. It has come from a reduction in unemployment and by putting back the industrial capacity previously not used. But our increase in production should not come merely when we have a certain amount of slack in the economy. We should be able to get a steady increase in production without the necessity of taking up slack in the economy; there should be no slack in the economy at all. The fact that there is slack in the economy implies that there has been a run-down of production and an increase of unemployment in the years before, as indeed was the position in 1959.
  It seems to me that it would be disastrous if within the next few months we were to have anything like a return to the credit squeeze to the extent that we had before, or even to a limited

  661
  extent. That would be disastrous from the point of view of our economy generally and of the need to keep up our industrial investment, and also—and I am particularly concerned about this as a Scottish Member—from the point of view of any attempts to alleviate local unemployment. For one of the factors which led to Scotland's serious unemployment position was precisely the credit squeeze that we had in 1957, and it would be disastrous if we were to go back to that again.
  Surely the point is that we need an increase in investment sufficient to allow us to get this annual increase in production steadily over the years. We must, therefore, make an attempt at the same time not necessarily to cut consumption but to restrict consumption sufficiently to allow us to divert resources to investment for a few years until we get to the necessary level which will give us a steady annual increase in production. That seems to be the Government's dilemma and we have not had an answer from them on this or even a serious examination of the position.
  It is particularly difficult, and I am by no means suggesting that I have a solution, because the present investment boom, which is in danger of being cut again, arises not so much from the taxation reliefs of the last Budget as from the derestriction on hire purchase six months before in the autumn of 1958. In other words, the durable consumer goods boom preceded the investment boom. Yet if we want to keep investment going, to get the level of investment that we require for a steady increase in our annual product, it is consumer goods at which we have to look from the point of view of restraint.
  I think that the Government are m a serious dilemma here. I agree with the hon. Member for Walsall, South (Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid) that if it comes to the point of having to impose some restraint on the economy it ought to be done at the consumer goods end and not at the investment end. In particular, the Government should look at the question of hire-purchase restrictions, but not only at that, for there is obviously need for restraint all round. When we talk of restraint, Government supporters immediately think of wages. If it were
  662
  as simple as that, it would be very good, but, in fact, it is not as simple as that, and I hope that the Government will not fall into the errors which they did before, and which they certainly did in their propaganda, of suggesting that it is simply a question of restraint on wages.
  There is also the question of dividends, equation of profits, equation of share values. All these things have been dealt with considerably in debate and I have no intention of going over them again. I think, however, that it ought to be pointed out to the Government that any question of increase of dividends, profits and share values makes it particularly difficult for the Government when such increases are positively gloried in both by the financial Press and by all of those who are traditionally supporters of the Tory Party, and, indeed, by certain hon. Members opposite. It will not be possible to get any sort of restraint, particularly on wages, if we have a continuing tendency to glory in the free-for-all which we have had over the last year and on which the election was fought and won.
  I want to say something briefly about prices. The hon. Member for Kidderminster the other night criticised the increase in Profits Tax from the point of view that it would be inflationary. That seems to be standing facts on their heads. He said that any increase in Profits Tax would automatically be put on the price of goods. It seems to me that it would be disastrous if that happened. The Financial Secretary said that it will not happen. I wish that I were as sanguine as he is that it will not happen, because a great many businessmen and financial people feel the same as the hon. Member for Kidderminster, and use the excuse of an increase in Profits Tax or Purchase Tax, or anything they like, to take the opportunity of adding several times over that amount to the prices of the commodities they sell.
  The hon. Member for Walsall, South has already pointed out that the increase in Profits Tax represents only about 1½ per cent. of the gross profits of companies in Britain, taking the 1959 figures. In terms of price of commodities the increase in Profits Tax represents considerably less than that, and I hope that the Government will say to their friends in industry and commerce that they

  663
  will not in any circumstances stand for those people using the Profits Tax increase as an opportunity to impose another round of price increases. If we have that, we shall have a considerable acceleration of wage demands and, I think, quite justifiably so.
  It seems to me that, despite that, there is a fair chance that we can continue with prices as they are at present at a reasonable level although there now seems to be a slight tendency for them to go up. If we get into the trouble which the Government seem to be anticipating that we shall, I return to the view that I have stated before, that we should look at it from the point of view of restraining consumer demand rather than of cutting investment. I do not want to say any more on this point. I think, however, that I ought to say that it is not inconsistent to have a general restraint and yet to have certain increases for those members of the community who are obviously desperately in need of such increases, though, obviously, there are difficulties and the Government have, or would have, to make, from their own point of view, certain unpalatable decisions. In particular, it is quite indefensible that the old-age pensioners have had nothing from the Budget. They, above all, should have had priority, despite any economic or financial difficulties.
  I repeat my hope that, if difficulties come, as it seems they will, the Government will not be panicked into cutting investment, into a credit squeeze or into monetary restrictions, which would return us to the position which we had in 1957 and 1958 and from which some parts of the country, notably Scotland, are still suffering very disastrously even up to the present day.
  8.21 p.m.
  Mr. Alan Green: The House owes two debts to my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell)—first, for a very agreeable, well-informed and well-organised speech, in which I think most of us took pleasure, and, secondly, for the pleasurable consequence that his speech allows me to be mercifully brief.
  The hon. Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan) started by being intellectually more honest than his right
  664
  hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. The hon. Gentleman stated quite plainly that it was his belief, policy and thought, that the Government should progressively take a larger percentage of the gross national product and spend it on behalf of the people. Unfortunately, he later deviated from that line by proceeding again to suggest that he was not talking about money. He was talking about some unit, which he did not specify, whereby he measured the gross national product. He said that, provided that production rose, he would not need to do what he said at the beginning of his speech that he believed in doing.
  Mr. Millan: That is quite a familiar argument from this side of the House, but it was not in fact an argument which I used. I said nothing about rates of taxation.
  Mr. Green: Nor have I said anything about rates of taxation yet. Let us face the fact that, if the Government are to take a greater share of the gross national product, in whatever fancy terms one measures the gross national product, whether in monetary terms or some other unit not yet devised, they will in fact impose higher taxation upon the people and not the same rate of taxation generally.
  This time last year I was bold enough to suggest to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he might find later on a need to restrain, either in his next annual Budget or perhaps at an intermediate stage, the processes set up—very properly, in principle, set up—in his Budget last year.
  Because in this Budget, facing the circumstances manfully, as has already been said, he has taken restraining action, I should like to add my voice to those who now applaud him. I am certain that in the circumstances he has acted in the right direction. I ask him to be good enough to set a precedent for all future Chancellors of the Exchequer, by stating publicly, either in his Budget statement, or preferably in a White Paper, his estimate of the proportion of the gross national product which will be spent by central and local government combined in the year in question.

  665
  If this figure were stated by the Chancellor at the beginning of the budgetary process every year, we—Government, back benchers and electors alike—would be able to judge what was the actual direction of policy in budgetary matters. This should be done whichever party is in power, because then back benchers, Government and electors, all of whom need this information, would be able to judge in what direction policy was moving.
  If policy were moving in the wrong direction, all three of the parties to this Government contract would have a real incentive and a real basis for seeking to change the policy in time, instead of complaining about what they had conspired together to do. It seems to be a not unreasonable request to ask for this figure. My right hon. Friend must make many estimates. This estimate is in fact the end-product of his own figuring and thinking. I believe that the figure should be given at the start of the budgetary process. Then, whichever party is in power, we shall have a much better and more simple means of telling in what direction policy is moving and a much surer guide about whether or not we should seek to change that policy.
  Finally, having praised my right hon. Friend for his courage and common-sense in the circumstances in which he finds himself, I must tell him that I shall be amongst those who will look with the greatest care and attention at the wording of the Clause in the Finance Bill dealing with tax avoidance. I am no more interested in other people evading taxes at my expense than any other hon. Member. I believe that we shall make a very grave mistake if we allow ourselves to pass a Clause in the Finance Bill which gives any blanket powers to the Inland Revenue.
  A Draconian Clause, a severe Clause, over tax evasion or avoidance is all right, provided that it is explicit. If it is not explicit, if one is allowed to tax intent or intention, I believe that both sides of the House will later be sorry that they agreed to such a Clause. I should support an explicit law to prevent "evasion". It is not "avoidance". People are perfectly entitled legally to avoid taxes if they can contrive it so. An explicit Clause or series of Clauses
  666
  to prevent evasion will have my wholehearted support.
  What I should find it very difficult, I think impossible, to support would be a Clause allowing some other body—not the legislature, not the judiciary—to decide whether or not the person intended to evade.
  I promised to be brief. I have been brief. With those words I am about to sit down, having commended my right hon. Friend's action at this time under the present circumstances.
  8.29 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Pannell: The hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Green) said that he was not in favour of a Draconian Clause—a blanket Clause against tax evasion—
  Mr. Green: A blanket Clause.
  Mr. Pannell: I want to put to the hon. Gentleman the point that the principle of all taxation is equity; that we deal with one person in equity with another. For the wage earners we have devised P.A.Y.E. where no evasion whatsoever is possible. It is paid week by week, and there is no argument about it. It is settled on the job. A firm's accountants feel themselves responsible to the Inland Revenue, and the wage earner does not get the chance of getting away with one single half-penny—
  Mr. Green: I am not entirely out of sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman says, as I hope I made clear in what I said. It is not only the wage earner who is subject to P.A.Y.E.—so is the salary earner and, in effect, so is the dividend earner. Most people are, except those who can juggle or fiddle a bit. All I ask is that those people should be specified, and that blanket powers should not be given.
  Mr. Pannell: I was not dealing with that, but with the wage earners among whom I work, and whom, in a special way, I think, I represent. They all know that as Thursday or Friday comes round their assessment under P.A.Y.E. is made. Whatever the figure of tax evasion may be, whatever its aggregate at the end of the year is as nothing to the mischief that it does. A taxation system will never be respected if the people on the job, the production workers, who are

  667
  taxed on every bit of overtime, believe that there is a fiddle somewhere at the top.
  What have we found? We have found so often that a retrospective Clause is brought in to deal with one form of tax evasion, but year by year we have also found that the ingenuity of certain people with mathematical minds puts up another obstacle to the Board of Inland Revenue. These things get round, they get known, and they lead to there being no respect at all for our taxation system. We ought to arm the State against these completely anti-social people.
  The hon. Member for Preston, South would not attempt to defend unethical practices where he met them. Why should not the State, on behalf of us all, be armed to meet those tendencies?
  Mr. Green: Was the hon. Gentleman asking me a question?
  Mr. Pannell: If the hon. Gentleman was not following my speech, there is not much point in my repeating what I said.
  Mr. Green: I did not know whether it was rhetorical or not.
  Mr. Pannell: No, I am not a rhetorical sort of person.
  Mr. Green: I am much obliged. I will repeat what I think. I do not propose to help tax evasion. I am against it. But I am also very much against giving people outside—people who are not Members of this House or members of the judiciary—certain blanket powers of inquisition, and making them, not the House of Commons or the courts, the judges of whether or not a man has intended to evade.
  Mr. Pannell: I should have thought that pretty wide powers were exercised already over all kinds of taxpayers. I have often had to interview the Inland Revenue on behalf of people who have suffered from an excess of innocence. These people are always innocent when they come against it. I conclude that part of my argument by saying to the hon. Gentleman that, broadly, I disagree with him.
  I still think that we can have people who, even if not responsible to the House, can at least be got at through it,
  668
  and be responsible to the Government. There is no question of that. I would not give away any rights of Parliament to intervene and give some sort of modern Star Chamber the power to act as judge and jury in all this, but I must confess that I get rather tired of what happens.
  I have now heard ten or eleven Budgets, and the Chancellor of the day always tells us of somebody who has thought of something else; dividend stripping, bond washing—something under a new name, and something about which I seldom know very much. Always, Parliament has to go through it all, and always we get this terrific bleat from the benches opposite about retrospective legislation, as though tax evasion itself was rather clever. I believe that evasion does an inordinate amount of harm among the great generality of taxpayers who meet their taxes.
  The only other thing I want to say is that we all particularly enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Wolver-hampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), because he spent a lot of time in debunking the Kidderminster crowd. When all is said and done, the party on this side of the Committee quite recently has been arguing about principles and about ends, but it seems to me that the splits in the party opposite are about means. I must say as a student of politics that that is something I have rather enjoyed, because I have always understood that if ever one wanted to pursue politics with office as an end, one did not generally join the party of the Left, because parties of the Left tend to fragment under the impact of change, and indeed must necessarily do so, whereas parties of the Right generally stand for the status quo.
  The Conservative Party has always been concerned to defend privilege. The Conservative Party never liked the grammar schools. One of my hon. Friends once told me that before the war they defended the direct grant schools, and when the comprehensive schools came along they defended the grammar schools because they thought they conferred privilege on someone or other.
  We have had a very amusing spectacle during the last few days. We have not had the classic arguments of the Old Testament or the New Testament—
  Mr. Ede: We have had Corinthians quoted to us.
  Mr. Panned: I am sorry, I missed that —or the niceties of Clause 4 and all that, but we have seen the party of the Right fragment and change in this Committee at this time, and it is a very pleasurable sort of thing to be looking at them instead of them looking at us. It has been quite a good week for the Labour Party. What the whole of the Press would say if the position had been reversed would be remarkable. We were a party in disintegration or decline, but, of course, when we look at hon. Members opposite we realise that this is part of the liveliness that is supposed to characterise them from time to time.
  This seems to us to be a rather sordid squabble on the benches opposite about taxation, because we judge this Budget in contradistinction to what happened last year, which, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said, was merely a repeat of what happened in 1955, when, with an election in the offing, £326 million was dispersed. That is what happened again last year. No doubt hon. Members opposite, probably including the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West—although I may be doing him an injustice, and if so he can contradict me, because I am only guessing at what was in his election address—gloried in their election addresses about the record of the Conservative Government.
  Mr. Powell: I will send the hon. Gentleman a copy, so that he might discontinue this part of his speech, and get on with something else.
  Mr. Pannell: That sounds all right, but it is rather a trifle too glib, because I am willing to bet that, in essence, his election address was not a great deal different from that of the hon. Member for Kidderminster. There was no quarrel between them then. There was no criticism of last year's Budget as being a dishonest prospectus, or anything like that. They stood solidly behind the Budget, and behind the social changes which they thought they had worked out. They knew full well that they were all solidly behind it and that there was no difference of principle at all about it.
  As a matter of fact, this Budget is the pay-off for the price they paid to win the election, and they know full well
  670
  that it is so. There has been a lot of humbug spoken from that side of the Committee from all sorts of people, including those who vaunted their honesty the most. There is no question about it —they merely won the election on giving the pay-off to all sorts of people with the glibbest sort of promises, and now they are up against it. This is purely a matter of tactics. We know that after the General Election the Chancellor has had to begin to husband his resources for the next four or five years so that he can be distributing largesse. He has not done it that way.
  It has been rather amusing for us to look at. This is the Tory Party in its most characteristic mood. All sorts of people on that side have said all sorts of things about one another, not unlike the things the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) said many years ago. I do not think the Conservative Party has shown up particularly well in this debate on this Budget. It has had merely a squabble between vested interests, not about ends but about means, and we only hope that eventually the public will catch up with it.
  8.40 p.m.
  Mr. David Webster: I am glad that the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell), who, I gather, has always been an advocate of brevity in speeches, has carried out his own precept so well. I support the Budget. Despite the fact that my noble Friend the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) left out most of the things I put in my election address, still he was elected, and my son was proud to work for him in his election. Whether he will work for him in the next is a different matter.
  I am one of the Members who have asked the Government for new hospitals. I have asked for a new hospital in my own constituency. I know that all these things have to be paid for. I am one of those who are very much in support of keeping up the National Health Service and of better remuneration and better conditions for the medical profession. I realise that that, too, has to be paid for. I am one of those who support the programme of improving our motorways, and improving the A roads, and solving the traffic problem in the towns. I

  671
  appreciate that that also has to be paid for. I am one of those who support the programme for modernising the railways and for improving the railway men's pay, because I know that by doing that we shall keep and recruit the best men in the industry, as in the old traditions of the Great Western Railway.
  These things have to be paid for. For these reasons I support the Government, who are proposing to find the means to pay for this massive programme which the people of this country very rightly want. At the same time I am concerned at the fact that there is a tendency towards inflation today, and I am concerned, as is the Governor of the Bank of England, who has said so frequently that he is worried about so much money chasing so few equity shares. I would say that there is probably a corollary to this too much money chasing too few equity shares, and that corollary is too many gilt-edged securities chasing too little willing money.
  We have had Questions in the House about War Loan 3½ per cent. Irredeemable Stock. We have had suggestions that a date should be put on War Loan. I consider that that is simply tinkering with the problem, and I consider it to be also a breach of the Government's original contract. We have had suggestions put that there should be a sinking fund for War Loan. That is certainly not going to deal with the problem outright, and that also is only tinkering with the problem. What we have to do is to get to the nub of this problem whether too much money is chasing too few equity shares and too much Government debt for the available money willing to invest itself in it.
  That is the fundamental unbalance of our economy today. It has persisted for many years. Public ownership and nationalisation in many ways has been rejected not only by the electorate but by the investor, and also by the investor from overseas. Many hon. Members opposite have been pleading for greater investment in this country. We must consider that much of the investment we try to get is investment from overseas. We must, therefore, make it attractive for it to come to this country. That is the unbalance of the economy, in which there is too much demand for industrial
  672
  equities and too little for gilt-edged stocks. That is the fundamental difficulty, and the Government in the years ahead will find it virtually impossible to raise irredeemable loans on the market, because the British investor is fed up with this pouring of money down the drain.
  I do not wish to repeat the words quoted by a Minister in another place. I cannot at present quote the actual words, but I think that we must get to the fundamental basis of this problem. We are asking for more investment to be put into hospitals, railways and other aspects of the public sector of the economy. At the same time we must consider whether there are not other aspects of the economy where the Government have an interest which it might be advisable to get rid of.
  I know that this will provoke a storm from the other side of the Committee, but I think that we must consider today, when we are putting so much into the capital side of the railways, that there are many assets in the railways— £28 million worth, under no date of valuation that I can ascertain from the British Transport Commission, which have nothing to do with the running of the railways. On the same valuation in the present balance sheet £10 million are invested in hotels.
  I should like to talk for a moment about the £28 million of assets which have no connection with the running of the railways. The valuation is old. I suggest that if they were revalued the assets would be found to be very much in excess of the book value in the accounts. I am told that the earnings are 14 per cent. on the assets at that valuation, but I wonder what the percentage is on the real value of these assets. These are things which I would not be too dogmatic about, but I beseech the Government to investigate this, to revalue the assets, see what they are worth and what they are earning for the taxpayers.
  If we are increasing Government debt in order to modernise the railways, there is a strong case for reducing Government debt tied up in assets which have nothing to do with the running of these things. I am very glad that my right hon. Friend has said that he intends shortly to dispose of Richard Thomas

  673
  and Baldwin. This is another way of getting more equity into the equity market and less Government debt. I hope that that issue will be successful and that it will bring in the maximum amount of invested money into industry from the public sector of the economy and release the Government from a large amount of Government debt. One is told so frequently that Service establishments are being reduced. Here is a case where considerable assets could be turned over to private industry if it wishes to invest in them.
  Mr. C. Paunell: Would the hon. Member sell the Army, or what?
  Mr. Webster: No, I would not. I had some rude remarks to say the other day about the Air Ministry, but I have had the privilege of serving in all three Services at one time or another. I have no intention of selling the Army, but I think that even the hon. Member is aware that there is a reduction in the Armed Forces, a reduction in National Service and a reduction particularly in the Navy where many establishments have been closed down. I am sure that the hon. Member reads the newspapers and is aware of that. Some of the vast houses and hotels which were occupied by the Services and requisitioned during the war should now be returned to private ownership.
  Mr. C. Pannell: After nine years of Conservative Government? I thought that they had put everything right.
  Mr. Webster: No, they have not. I should be happy to take the hon. Member round. I am sure that he is as aware as I am of the size of this problem.
  I have had the pleasure of listening to the whole debate, and I know that other hon. Members will wish to speak after me and therefore I must be brief. But I should like to point out that one of the great difficulties today is the lack of balance in the tremendous demand to go into companies and invest in them. One sees today repeated demands to buy unit trust shares and to go into investment trusts. One sees the insurance companies' investment portfolios always expanding with the savings of working people buying shares in industrial equities. That is a first-class thing. I am glad to know also that the trade unions are investing in these things. I know
  674
  that some of them have already bought Government stock and have "caught a cold" on that, and I sympathise with them very much in that respect.
  But when there is this massive amount of funds available from every section in the community for investment in not Government stock but private enterprise, in which more and more people are sharing, and when there is a greater reluctance than ever before to buy Government debt, this is a matter which should be looked at and the maximum number of assets which can be released should be disposed of in order to retain the balance.
  I have discussed the parts of the Government's programme concerned with trying to raise enough money to carry out their programme and with the retaining, or regaining, of a balance between the public and the private sectors of the economy. There is another aspect which is worth considering. During the Budget debate last year the Chancellor, when taking the brake off the economy and so giving some incentive to firms to build up stocks, quite definitely said that one of the factors that was in his mind was the responsibility that we in the House of Commons have for the primary producing countries, particularly in the Commonwealth.
  It is because of that release of pressure and the boost that was given to the economy that our industries then began to build up stocks. We saw the spot price of rubber in Malaya rise in eighteen months from 20d. per 1b. to 34d. per lb., as it is today. We saw copper recover from its lowest nadir of £160 per ton to £240 per ton today. That is a good thing for Rhodesia just as the rise in the price of rubber is a good thing for Malaya. We see greasy merinos, which I do not need to tell the hon. Gentleman from Leeds are something to do with wool, stable at 100d. per 1b. and that is good for another part of the Commonwealth—Australia.
  That is one way in which we have assisted in releasing purchasing power to build up stocks in industry. It has assisted greatly in supporting our Commonwealth. We knew when this happened that there was a grave risk that there would be balance of payments

  675
  difficulties for some time, and it was said very candidly during the debate that that would be the case. We were aware of that risk, it has happened and our balance of payments has been affected adversely. It was a risk that we took with our eyes open, and it is a risk which I hope will be reduced because the products which came in as raw materials are now being restored as manufactured products and are swelling our exports.
  It was encouraging in last month's review to see a rise in our balance of payments, and I think that more credit should be given to the Chancellor for what he has done to assist not only our home industry but the Commonwealth. That is not the only thing that should be remembered. We should also remember, if there is to be a Division tonight, that we have all asked for this expenditure and we must all be aware of our responsibility in footing the bill.
  8.54 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Jay: First, I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Worsley) upon his maiden speech, which displayed those virtues of modesty and common-sense which he attributed to all other Yorkshiremen.
  We have had an exceptionally interesting debate this week. The most outstanding speeches in it from the other side of the Committee have come not from the Chancellor, but from the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) and the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft). There is no doubt in my mind that it was those two rival leaders of revolt below the Gangway who were really speaking for the Tory Party and for millions of Tory supporters in the country.
  The hon. Member for Kidderminster was at least right when he said—speaking, as he told us, for a group of mutineers and not just for himself—that there was a deep cleavage between himself and his followers on the one hand, and the Chancellor, on the other. That is quite true. Plainly, there is a deep cleavage within the party opposite. The reason is, of course, that the hon. Member for Kidderminster and his hon. Friends can preach their stern, unbending Toryism in the void, while the Chancellor has been forced to come to
  676
  terms with unpleasant realities like the balance of payments.
  The Chancellor has found, once again, that Tory election pledges and realities do not mix very well. The hon. Member for Kidderminster also said—and I agree with him—that this post-election Budget repeats the story of the election Budget of 1955, and that this whole tale is a political disgrace. Once again the taxes come down before the election; and, after the election, in complete disregard of the pledges of almost all Tory candidates, they go up again. Once again this week, we are having the hangover.
  The President of the Board of Trade —who has returned at long last—delights in saying that other people cannot have it both ways, and he asked us whether we were accusing the Chancellor of not being tough enough now or not easy enough last year. Of course, we agree that having got into the free-for-all boom in which he finds himself now he has had to hold back. Of course, we agree that last year, having held down the country's production for three years of chronic stagnation, he had to give a stimulus.
  Our complaint is that he waited three years to do it; that he abandoned all semblance of planning; and that he did not reduce taxes until he was within a few months of a General Election. That conduct deserves some of the rather strong adjectives that we have heard from below the Gangway opposite in this debate.
  There is one justifiable grievance against the Chancellor which the outraged Tories have not even mentioned in the debate. Neither of their rival leaders has mentioned it to-day. I must warn the Chancellor that this movement has both an Archbishop Makarios and a General Grivas facing him over these next few months. Only one is present at the moment, however.
  The grievance they have is this. The Chancellor misled them, and everybody else, last year, particularly all those Tories who have never really understood post-1939 economics, by pretending that he was cutting taxes because conditions were good. Really, as he knew perfectly well, he could only make these large tax cuts because of industrial stagnation and unemployment. But, of course, if

  677
  one says in one year that tax reliefs are due to prosperity, it is not surprising that in the next year, when the country is nearer to full employment and one has to raise taxes, one's misguided supporters accuse one of political turpitude. If the Chancellor had been more candid last year he would not have been in such political trouble today.
  The hon. Member for Kidderminster also rightly complained that after a supposed cut in Purchase Tax the total amount raised has gone up from £497 million two years ago to £501 million last year, and that the estimate for this year is £535 million. What he did not say was that in the last full year of the Labour Government the total rise was less than £300 million.
  The right hon. Member for Monmouth could have made an even stronger case against the Chancellor if he had gone back a few more years and recited how much total spending and total tax revenue had arisen since the time of the Labour Government, ten years ago. Do. hon. Members opposite realise how much the actual figures of expenditure and revenue have risen compared with the last full year of the Labour Government? The total rise in tax has gone up from £3,978 million in 1950–51 to £5,980 million, a rise of more than £2,000 million, or over 50 per cent. Ordinary expenditure has risen from £3,258 million in 1950–51 when I was Financial Secretary, in such a more modest way, to £5,676 million today, a rise of £2,400 million, or 75 per cent.
  In the present year, as the right hon. Member for Monmouth has told us, both expenditure and revenue are increasing by about a further £350 million.
  Though I believe that we ought to get much better value for money, particularly in defence, I profoundly disagree with the right hon. Member for Monmouth that social expenditure ought to be cut. On pensions, housing and schools we are spending not too much, but too little.
  Mr. Cyril Osborne: The point that the right hon. Gentleman is making is that our expenditure is so much greater than it was when
  he was responsible. Will he not admit that the vast majority of that expenditure has been going to the old-age pensioners and social services, which he wants us to expand even
  678
  more? He should be congratulating us on what we are doing.
  Mr. Jay: I am dealing with the whole of that argument, if the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. C. Osborne) will wait. Does the right hon. Member for Monmouth really think that it is a bad thing to build schools and a good thing to sell motor cars? His economics are getting so topsy-turvy as to reach the point of obsession.
  I agree with the hon. Member for Louth that the rise in Government spending and tax revenue over those years is the inevitable consequence of the facts of economic life nowadays. My complaint is not that it has risen. My complaint against the Chancellor and the Prime Minister is that they have misled their simple-minded and gullible followers, including the hon. Member for Kidderminster and the right hon. Member for Monmouth, into believing that a Tory Government would make large cuts in taxation and spending. Indeed, the outraged mutineers below the Gangway, and the millions more puzzled Tories in the country, are perfectly justified in feeling that they have been double-crossed by their leaders in this matter. They have. They are now being told the truth for the first time.
  What else do these figures of rising tax revenue and expenditure prove? They prove what we constantly said during the election and what hon. Members opposite constantly denied—that if production expands, the natural increase in revenue will sustain a controlled increase in expenditure. In a letter to The Times, a few days before polling day, I modestly estimated that the natural increase in revenue at existing tax rates would yield at least £150 million a year. The Chancellor's Financial Statement this week gives the exact figure for this year, £328 million. Therefore, according to the Chancellor's own figure, against the £1,000 million which the Tories say our programme would cost at the end of five years, the natural increase in revenue at this rate would by that time have been £1,600 million a year.
  The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Reginald Mandling)The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Reginald Mandling) indicated dissent.
  Mr. Jay: I see that the President of the Board of Trade shaking his head.

  679
  He at least produced a slightly more subtle argument than did the hon. Member for Kidderminster, as one would expect; but it was not valid. He said that no doubt there was a natural increase in revenue, but that there was also a natural increase in spending from existing policies to set against that.
  The President of the Board of Trade cannot have it both ways. If he says that the whole of this extra £320 million a year revenue is already mortgaged by the Government for spending policies, he is telling his supporters that they cannot expect any reduction in tax rates in the next five years. If he said that, I cannot imagine what the language would be below the Gangway. If he is not saying that, and he says that a substantial revenue over and above that will be available, it is clearly possible to use it, as we say, for additional social services.
  We on this side of the Committee have our own complaints to make against the Government. Are the Government now receding, as has appeared at times in this debate, from the election pledge to help old-age pensioners? There was an express pledge contained in the official manifesto of the party opposite "The Next Five Years", which had on the front a picture of the Prime Minister. The pledge was:
  "We pledge ourselves to ensure that pensioners continue to share in the good things which a steadily expanding economy will bring."
  How can any hon. Gentleman opposite in his heart maintain that that pledge is being honoured? Not merely are pensioners not sharing in any of these good things; they have had a higher tobacco tax laid on them this week at the same time as the tax on wine has been reduced, when last year the beer tax was cut, and when two years ago, the tobacco token was taken away. We regard this as inexcusable, and it is that complaint which I have heard expressed most commonly outside the House.
  Let us, therefore, examine who, in the words of this manifesto, are "sharing in the good things which an expanding economy brings". During the last two years the movement towards a better distribution of incomes and property has been reversed by Tory policy, and inequality has been growing. In 1959,
  680
  wages and salaries rose by 3½ per cent.; slower than either production or productivity. Gross profits of companies rose by 10 per cent. Dividends before tax rose by 13 per cent. Undistributed profits rose by 19 per cent. In January, 1960, actual dividends were 30 per cent. higher than in January the year before.
  The Economic Secretary said yesterday that we ought to go back not one year, but two. Let us do that. If we do, we find that since the beginning of 1958 share prices have risen by over 100 per cent. and tax-free capital gains have exceeded £10,000 million. As there are only 1½ million owners of equity shares, it means that those gains have gone to a small minority. It is remarkable that in this so-called property-owning democracy there are more people on National Assistance even now than there are people owning equity shares of any kind. Indeed, the "Windfall State" is now becoming the "Unequal Society".
  If the Economic Secretary does not like going back two years, let us go back seven years and consider the position throughout the years of Tory Government. We then find—as the Chancellor told me a fortnight ago—that between 1952 and January, 1960, wage rates rose by 42 per cent. and dividends by 78 per cent. I would ask the Chancellor whether this growth of inequality is the deliberate intention of the Government.
  These figures are all of incomes before tax. The tax changes in the last few years have made things even worse. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) correctly quoted some figures from The Times which I do not think the President of the Board of Trade will attempt to suggest are false. These show that the share of all personal incomes taken by direct taxation since 1955 has increased and not decreased. That is because falling money values have forced incomes into higher tax ranges.
  The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, however, did not go on to say that since the tax reliefs in the last three years have given much bigger proportionate benefits to those high up in the income scale than to the others, it follows inescapably that the lower-paid wage earners have been paying a higher proportion of their incomes in direct taxes in the last two years. On top of

  681
  that the Chancellor has raised another £200 million in the National Insurance contribution which falls as a flat poll tax crushingly upon those at the lowest end of the wage scale.
  So there can be no doubt that in the past three years wage earners have received a smaller share of the national income before tax, and have also paid a larger share of what they got in direct taxation and insurance contribution together. On top of that, for months past both dividends and productivity have been rising faster than wages. In those circumstances, there is an overwhelming case for higher wages throughout the economy this year.
  The Economic Secretary does not seem to understand that this is a matter of the distribution between wages and dividends. At present, the simple fact is that dividends are getting too much and wages too little. Therefore, no issue of rising prices is involved.
  The Chancellor has done something to meet this case by his most important Socialist proposal—which so upset hon. Members below the Gangway opposite— to raise Profits Tax. But that is not enough. What he should have done was to restore the separate Profits Tax on dividends whose removal we can now see was a mistake.
  The right hon. Gentleman has also done something by his other Socialist, but rather partial, attack on tax evasion and avoidance. It was remarkable to see how sensitive hon. Members opposite are about any sort of attack on tax evasion and avoidance. We welcome the conversion of the Chancellor, even if it is many years late, to our proposals over the "golden handshake", dividend fiddling, gentlemen farming and the rest, just as we welcome his conversion to our policies on distribution and of industry and other things.
  But, here again, the Chancellor is too timid in his Socialism. There is another "golden handshake" which he has not touched, namely, the lump sums paid in "top hat" pension schemes. Why cannot he at least accept the proposals of the Royal Commission in this connection, and reduce the maximum tax-free sums from £40,000 to £10,000 for old schemes and £2,000 for new ones? Secondly, why does not he take the chance, this year, to remove the initial
  682
  allowance from passenger cars allegedly used for business purposes? This, if not a scandal, is certainly a monstrous abuse, which is losing the Exchequer tens of millions of pounds each year, in the opinion of many experts. Surely this would have been an ideal point at which to do it, when we are being told that it is the motor car boom which is straining the economy at its most sensitive points and when, incidentally, more exports are more necessary than ever.
  Thirdly, why has the Chancellor done nothing at all about the discrimination between Schedule D and Schedule E expenses? It is no use the President of the Board of Trade brushing all this aside. Let him listen to experts engaged in this new profession, or let him read the words of a learned judge, the other day, who said that the "pleasure of living nowadays depends upon the Schedule under which we live." I think that on the whole subject of evasion and avoidance the President of the Board of Trade was casual almost to the point of frivolity. He argued that only minor sums were at stake over the whole field. If that be so, I ask one question of him: how is is that the total yield of Surtax has risen so little for years past, and the yield from death duties has hardly risen at all? Until this year the yield from death duties has hardly risen over the last ten or fifteen years.
  Mr. Nabarro: The doctors are keeping us alive longer.
  Mr. Jay: I see that the hon. Member for Kidderminster is again in disagreement with the President of the Board of Trade.
  Mr. Nabarro: I said that the doctors are keeping us alive longer and, therefore, there are not so many deaths of rich people—but they will die in due time.
  Mr. Jay: So far, the figures do not reinforce what the hon. Gentleman has said.
  To me, the most frightening thing about this whole debate so far has been that so few hon. Members have mentioned the balance of payments. Even the Chancellor—though, of course, he said something on the subject—seemed to me to be making light of the situation. He never mentioned the fact that in the

  683
  last three months of last year, indeed at the time of polling day at the last General Election, we were already in a balance of payments deficit. On 8th October, the balance of payments were not having it good at all, although the public was not told this until March of this year. So far as I can see from the visible trade figures, we have probably still been "in the red" since January.
  Our gold reserve is lower than a year ago. Sterling balances are higher. The terms of trade, as was rightly said by the hon. Member for Louth may easily get worse. We are at the beginning of the awkward time of the year for sterling. With that background is the Chancellor really sure that he has done enough to forestall trouble this autumn? This summer he may have to face some even more harsh realities than the hon. Member for Kidderminster. The total deflationary effect of the Budget is only £13 million, as I think the right hon. Gentleman would agree.
  It is not necessarily by fiscal measures alone that the Chancellor might have resisted this new slide into deficit. Was it really necessary, as the gold reserve dwindled last year, to make repeated unilateral concessions to dollar imports without getting any relief in return, for instance, on the wool tariff quota which the right hon. Gentleman knows very well? Though, heaven knows, we needed the expansion last year, was it really necessary for so much of the expansion to come by the wild inflation of bank advances of £700 million, going largely to enable people to spend beyond their earnings and, to some extent, to buy equity shares on the Stock Exchange? It is mainly the selling of gilt-edged by the banks to finance these loans which has forced up interest rates and made it difficult for local councils to build more houses.
  The Chancellor said that this had been an annus mirabilis for the saver. It has not been an annus mirabilis for the holders of gilt-edged, as I think he will agree. The Chancellor should have checked this inflation earlier by direct requests to the banks and not by hints, nods, winks, nudges, and so on, which produce so little effect.
  What really was the point of his mysterious Delphic warning last Tuesday
  684
  about possible credit restraint which, so far, has had no effect other than to push gilt-edged prices down even further? If it turns out later this summer that credit and import policies are inadequate to check this slide into deficit, I should be prepared, rather than to face an autumn crisis, to accept a higher Profits Tax— I am saying this to the President of the Board of Trade, in particular—a capital gains tax, more drastic measures against evasion, and a complete withdrawal of the initial allowance on cars. Surely, to mention one point, there is this merit in a capital gains tax, that it brings in the biggest revenue in years of boom, when we want to exercise restraint and obviously lower revenue in the years of recession.
  The Chancellor may argue that everything is all right because production is rising. Certainly, the 10 per cent. rise in the last year is better than the three years of stagnation we had after the Home Secretary's declaration that he was going to double the standard of living in twenty-five years, and the one year of outright decline after the Budget speech of the right hon. Member for Monmouth, which he introduced with the words, "Our theme is expansion." All the same, it is not the least bit impressive, if we look back a few years, and if we look abroad outside this country.
  The incredible truth is that our industrial production is only 10 per cent. higher now than it was at the end of 1955, a rise of only 2 per cent. per year since then. If it is really true that demand is now pressing against capacity after a rise of only 10 per cent. production in five years, there must be something seriously wrong with the development of British economy in the last eight years of Tory rule.
  If we look abroad, as my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) did yesterday, the figures are even more shattering. I give a few in addition to those he gave. Since 1953, industrial production in the United Kingdom is up by 27 per cent., but Western Germany's industrial production is up by 72 per cent.; that of France by 70 per cent.; and Italy's by 68 per cent. That in itself is an interesting comment on our lack of success in negotiations over the Common Market. Certainly, we shall not remain a great Power for long if that goes on.

  685
  We must ask ourselves: what is the cause of our failure? First, of course, it is the lack of investment; and, secondly, it is the deliberate deflation of demand in the home market, which has held back production and investment for so many recent years. Indeed, it is that very deflationary policy which the right hon. Member for Monmouth and the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West practised, and even now still preach, which has done most of the damage. The trouble about right hon. and hon. Gentlemen is that they are so obsessed with money and finance that they hardly look at the realities of production and employment at all.
  I wonder, also, how many hon. Members realise that the volume of exports from this country last year was only 10 per cent. higher than in 1950. The volume of imports, at the same time, was 30 per cent. higher? As the hon. Member for Louth rightly said in the debate, it is only the remarkably favourable terms of trade which are saving us today. The terms of trade are actually today nearly 25 per cent. more favourable than they were in 1951. Indeed, if we had the present volume of imports and exports, with the prices of 1951, we would be £1,000 million in deficit at the present moment.
  So, although we welcome the Chancellor's few pink-and-white Socialist proposals, I do not think that he has a great deal to be complacent about. He has presided over a year in which profits and dividends have steadily gained at the expense of wages, in which gilt-edged prices have fallen to the lowest levels ever, in which the gold reserve has fallen and sterling balances risen, and in which we have slid into a balance of payment crisis with the most favourable terms of trade ever known. That does not seem to be an annus mirabilis, even by Tory standards. Once again, we have learned that under this Tory freedom system, with all its capital gains and never-never booms, we cannot have expansion and full employment without getting into a crisis within twelve months.
  I have one more direct question to ask the Chancellor, who is to rise to speak within half-a-minute. The Economic Secretary said yesterday, talking about old-age pensions, that performance is better than promise. The Tory election manifesto, in a passage which I have read
  686
  tonight, gave a direct promise that the pensioners would be assisted. Will the Chancellor tell us tonight when that pledge will be honoured?
  9.26 p.m.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Derick Heathcoat Amory): I should like at the outset to associate myself with what my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid) and my noble Friend the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) said about the heavy loss Which we in the House have suffered through the sad death of Christopher Holland-Martin. He was respected and greatly beloved by all who knew him.
  I will not refer at the beginning of my speech to the rather querulous lucubrations of the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay). We have enjoyed the benefit of hearing five excellent maiden speeches from my hon. Friends the Members for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills), Pudsey (Mr. Hiley), Clitheroe (Mr. F. Pearson) and Keighley (Mr. Worsley). Speaking as Chancellor and realising what a formidable quintet of debating talent they represent, I was well satisfied that on this occasion the sharp edges of their swords were somewhat blunted by the tradition of the absence of controversiality which surrounds maiden speeches. I shall not get off so lightly on another occasion.
  During the debate I have come under fire from a number of directions. That in itself has not surprised me, nor has it unduly perturbed me. I expected that this might be a controversial Budget. I knew that it could not be a popular one. Indeed, if it had been agreeable and popular it is rather doubtful whether it could have fulfilled its purpose. While, naturally, I do not like to disappoint my friends and colleagues, the only questions which made a deep impression upon me were whether my proposals are appropriate to our national economic situation, whether they are, taken together, fair, and whether they are likely to prove effective in giving that slight touch of the brake to our rate of expansion which I am sure is called for.
  Let me repeat what the objectives of the Budget are. First and foremost its aim is to ward off the risks of a return of inflation, to safeguard our balance of

  687
  payments and to reinforce that price stability which we have been enjoying for the past two years or so. It is true that the nation has never had it so good, and I am doing my best to see that the nation shall have it still better from now on. I am asking people to pay a small price, when our prosperity is moving fast ahead, to ensure that it shall last and shall increase further in the future. Of all the benefits of prosperity, I believe that people generally value price stability most.
  It is not my object to halt expansion, far less to put it into reverse. My object is to ensure that the pace at which we move forward shall be one which is consistent with our national resources. As my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary put it this afternoon, I want to see that there will be room for further expansion. The situation calls, I am sure, for a slightly restraining influence. Past experience shows that moderate action in time saves the need for more extreme and far more unpleasant action later. That is why we raised the Bank Rate in January, at a time when many commentators thought it a bit premature. I make no apology for taking further action in the same direction now.
  I want to deal with two points made by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson). He poured a certain amount of scorn on the fact that this Budget is a very different one from that of last year. He then, by implication, acknowledged that the state of the economy was different, too. He and his friends did not oppose the general shape of the Budget last year, or the total amount of tax reductions made. Would he. in the different economic circumstances, have supported a similar kind of Budget this year? He knows very well that just as the scope and purpose of the Budget was right last year, so the scope and purpose of the Budget this year is right, too.
  Mr. H. Wilson: We have made clear a number of times this week that we thought that last year's tax remissions were right in the situation that the right hon. Gentleman had allowed to develop. We felt that he was wrong in having allowed unemployment to develop as it did, that he should have expanded earlier. It is because he had to pull
  688
  out all the stops last year that the boom is in danger of getting out of hand.
  Mr. Amory: The right hon. Gentleman also produced a very fallacious argument about increases in revenue and public expenditure. He reminded my hon. Friends and me that during the election we had criticised the rash and flamboyant promises of the Opposition that they would increase public expenditure by £1,000 million or so—it was rather difficult to cost their promises, and they may well have added up to far more than that—without increasing taxation.
  Mr. Wilson: Over five years.
  Mr. Amory: Over the next Parliament. He went on to say that this year I had provided for an increase in Supply expenditure of about £320 million and that the increase has been covered by buoyant revenue. He claimed that this £1,000 million of extra expenditure could easily have been covered in the same way. What he forgot was that in addition to the wild promises of new expenditure, his party had also committed itself to maintaining and expanding all the main existing objectives of expenditure and that, at best, a substantial part of the normal growth in the revenue is absorbed by such current commitments. For good measure, he and his colleagues threw in what seemed to us to be an enormous increase in public expenditure as well. I do not think that their election promises add up any better now or make any more sense now than they did at the time of the Election.
  Mr. Jay: Does not the Chancellor realise that if the revenue increased by the figure which he has given us this year —a natural increase of £320 million over five years—that would give an increase of £1,600 million, which is far more than any programme that we propose?
  Mr. Amory: I was just coming to that point and saying that my own main criticism was that the promises which the party opposite made were firm assurances before it could possibly tell what the increase in revenue over the five year period was to be. I thought that was a very irresponsible attitude to take.
  The right hon. Gentleman asked whether we were always to expect a stimulating Budget before an election

  689
  and a restraining one after a Conservative victory. One of our embarrassments is that when the nation thinks that there is any imminent chance of a return of a Socialist Government it seems to require a dose of tonic. When a Conservative Government victory has been assured, the surge forward in confidence and exhilaration is such as to call for a slight sedative.
  It was a great comfort to me that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition has said that he thinks this is a thoroughly bad Budget. I can understand that it well may be from his point of view because it eschews the kinds of control and the fiscal principles in which his party believe. A number of my hon. Friends have criticised me for the net increase in taxation which I have made, amounting to £22 million this year, rising to £60 million next year. I agree with them entirely in their view that taxation as a whole and taxation of earnings in particular is still too high and that every sound opportunity should be taken to reduce it. The record of the Government since 1951 is not a bad one in this respect. My own record is not a bad one either. In my two previous Budgets I made very substantial reductions, and did so with enthusiasm. I doubt whether any Chancellor of the Exchequer has made bigger ones. I did this in both cases because the reductions were justified, both by the budgetary and the economic situation. Therefore. I do not think I can be fairly thought of as one who drags his feet when the opportunity for tax reductions arises.
  Some of my hon. Friends seemed to me to be saying that never in any circumstances can any increase in taxation be justified. That is where, reluctantly, I have to part company with them. I wish I could agree with them. It would be a comforting article of faith to hold. The economic pre-requisite for tax reductions is not stagnation or a heavily unemployed economy. It is stability in the price level and the prospect of continuing price stability.
  If we courageously take the right action now, I am confident that the prospect of continuing price stability will remain a good one. If that is so, the prospects of further reductions in taxation will also be good. We are at present enjoying a high degree of prosperity, and the future is what matters now.
  690
  One of my hon. Friends asked me yesterday whether I no longer agreed that tax reductions were an incentive to effort. I do very much agree with that, particularly in regard to direct tax on earnings. That is why I am so desperately keen to keep the economy in a state where our record for reducing the burden of taxation can be continued over the years.
  I come now to the measures to protect the Revenue. I feel sure that everyone will agree with the objects here, namely, to ensure that tax due is, as far as possible, collected. This must be done in the interests of taxpayers generally. If a minority manages to evade its fair share, the rest will have to pay more than their due. But I am as anxious as anyone in the Committee to see that this is done with scrupulous justice to the taxpayers concerned.
  There are some provisions that deal, not with tax dodging, but with cases where the law as it stands goes wider than we believe Parliament ever intended. Hobby farming is one. Those who are taking advantage of the provisions of the law as it stands are entirely within their rights. What I propose is that the law shall be brought into line with what I believe was intended, namely, that farming for this purpose should be practised on reasonably commercial lines. When hon. Gentlemen see the words we propose to put in the Bill, I think they will be satisfied that we are not proposing anything which is not entirely fair and reasonable.
  I am not out to make life more difficult for decent, reasonable, people, but only for people who carry these devices to extreme lengths. The fiddling and dodging cases with which others of these measures deal are practised only by a minority, I am glad to say. But the loss of revenue could well become substantial, running into many millions if we take no action to check it.
  Mr. H. Wilson: I am sorry to interrupt the Chancellor of the Exchequer again. He has now admitted what many of us have said, that the loss of revenue is a matter of millions. [Interruption.] It could be and has been, as previous Chancellors of the Exchequer have admitted. How, then, does he justify the statement of the Prime Minister in October that the total yields from this

  691
  would by only a quarter of a million pounds?
  Mr. Amory: If the right hon. Gentleman had listened carefully, he would have noted that I said that the loss of revenue could well become substantial, running into many millions, if we took no action to check it. Here, for tax avoidance, people are deliberately twisting and distorting the law out of all recognition, and I cannot stand by and allow these practices to continue and grow without taking every reasonable action to stop them. Specific provisions having failed to keep pace with these new devices, I have had to propose a rather more general power, subject to appeal.
  I should like to say a word or two about the general scope of this power. In past years, we have tried to deal with these devices by introducing specific safeguards in the law. We had valuable help in this respect from the Council of the Stock Exchange, which deplores these practices and has itself tried to check some of them by altering its rules. We are now satisfied—and the Stock Exchange authorities, who have been consulted informally, agree with us in this judgment—that we can no longer hope to deal effectively with the problem by this means, but that we must seek some kind of general power. It is quite clear from the cases that have come to our notice that the power must be general if it is to be effective for the purpose of stopping these blatant devices, but I do not want it to go an inch wider than is necessary for that purpose.
  I shall not attempt tonight to describe in detail the language in which the proposed power will be put—that is a matter for the Finance Bill. I can say that, broadly, two main classes will be covered. First, there will be the cases of all those types based on the central idea of what has been called dividend stripping; that is, getting profits or reserves or assets out of companies in such a way that, in the end, the Revenue would lose the tax that has been paid, or would fail to collect tax that ought to be paid. Secondly, there will be the cases of those types that are known as bond-washing. The power will be directed specifically, as far as we can, to covering those two kinds of cases.
  692
  The Whitworth Park Coal Company case, where validating action is proposed, is a different kind of case altogether. Here, there is no question of deliberate tax dodging. It is a case of the law having been found not to be what everyone, including the taxpayers, believed it all the time to be. This came to light almost by chance, and not as a direct result of an appeal by a taxpayer having a grievance on this point. The object is to ensure that the taxpayers and the Revenue shall be confirmed as having been in the position in which they thought they were, and were intended to be.
  I should like to say something about Government expenditure, and the interesting speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft). If I might, I would correct one of his figures. The adjusted comparison of the defence expenditure with previous years shows an increase, not of £100 million but of £75 million this year.
  My right hon. Friend and I, having both held the same office, share, I think, some fellow feelings on the practical problems involved in the control of public expenditure. We know, for instance, that the final figure that emerges is the outcome of many stern battles fought with Departments over the year. I imagine that no Chancellor of the Exchequer ever accepts intact the financial proposals of his colleagues, and the final figure—after an exhausting process of hammering away, and attrition, a process found sometimes almost unbearable by Ministers—comes out very substantially lower, and many of the Minister's most treasured hopes are disappointed.
  My right hon. Friend will agree, too, that expenditure flowing from a policy decision develops gradually over succeeding years and could not be changed substantially, if at all, except by changing that decision. It would be wrong to assume that any wide range of new commitments has caused the present increase, or that any such wide range of new commitments has been accepted by the Government during the past two or three years.
  Some new commitments indeed there have been—improvements in pensions and National Assistance, a deliberate

  693
  expansion of the school and hospital building programmes, assistance towards the reorganisation and modernisation of the cotton industry, aid to areas of relatively high unemployment and the steady development of the road programme. But by far the bigger part of the current increase in the Estimates stems from the steady, and I think prudent, development of policies approved and embarked upon very much earlier, dating, indeed, from the time when my right hon. Friend was a Member of the Government.
  The major policies from which nearly all of our expenditure flows have never been seriously challenged or criticised by our colleagues on this side of the Committee. On the contrary, great efforts have been expended by many of my hon. Friends to persuade us to extend or accelerate further their development, and my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Stevens), in an excellent speech, made a humorous reference to this point. Two elections have been contested on these policies, and on both occasions they have received the approbation of the nation. I thought this point: was well brought out in the interesting speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Mr. C. Osborne) yesterday, and in a letter from him in the Daily Telegraph today.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth stressed the importance of projecting the estimated cost of commitments over a period of some years ahead. I entirely agree with him on that point. It is quite essential. My right hon. Friend did not, I think, make it very clear in what particular directions he would find his major economies. I should like to ask those of my hon. Friends who criticise the existing level of Government expenditure which of our present policies they would wish us to reverse. I do not think it is an unfair question to ask them.
  Mr. Nabarro: I am sure that my right hon. Friend has not discarded from his mind the possibility that I would answer his question. I want his policies drastically revised with regard to the control and accountability of the huge sums which he is providing in the Finance Bill for capital investment in the nationalised industries. I have said that over and over again to my right hon. Friend and
  694
  have voted against the Government on that issue.
  Mr. Amory: I will take note of my hon. Friend's observations.
  As my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth said, it is the responsibility of the Government to lead. I entirely agree; of course, it is. We are pursuing our present policies because we still think they are the right policies, and these policies have been confirmed and approved by our party on numerous occasions.
  Many of my hon. Friends have been displaying considerable interest lately in the degree of control exercised by Parliament over public expenditure. Many of them feel that, whatever the theoretical opportunities, they are in practice insufficient. I personally have a good deal of sympathy for this view. I doubt whether we have got our present arrangements right, and I am glad that the problem is to be looked into.
  I should like to refer to the very impressive speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell). My hon. Friend is a fearless critic, who does not pull his punches, but on this occasion I can say that I find myself in agreement with almost every one of the points he made so clearly. I agree with him that it would have been a bad mistake had I budgeted for a bigger sum to be met by borrowing this year than I have, and that was one of the major assumptions on which this Budget was constructed. I think my hon. Friend took too depressing a view about the prospects for Government borrowing. Last year was exceptionally difficult, largely, if not wholly, because of the large amount of selling by the banks. That is unlikely to recur on that scale.
  My hon. Friend is, I am sure, correct that the percentage of the gross national product taken by public expenditure is one of the key figures to which we must pay the greatest possible attention. Over the years ahead we must continue the process of bringing that percentage down. Our record to date, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd) reminded us, is a good one. Since 1952 the proportion of the gross national product taken in taxation has come down from 31 per cent. to 25 per cent. and the proportion of the gross

  695
  national product taken by the expenditure of the central Government has come down from 32·4 per cent. to 27·5 per cent., and that, I think, is the answer to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea, North.
  About the speech of my noble Friend the Member for Dorset, South, I should like only to say this: I have very great respect and affection for my noble Friend; I am very sorry that I cannot subscribe to his economic views.
  Several hon. Gentlemen referred to the problem of European trade. My hon. Friend the Economic Secretary gave the Committee some up to date information about the economic situation in his speech yesterday. It is a most important subject, but a very complicated one. There are just one or two things I should like to say, but I am afraid that I cannot develop these points in the time at my disposal. The first is that we have on a number of occasions made it absolutely clear that we welcome the forward move in political cooperation represented by the Common Market. We wish it well. We have no wish or intention to frustrate it in any way. The Franco-German rapprochement, which is such a notable achievement of recent years, as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) pointed out, is something which cannot fail to be of fundamental benefit to the future of Europe.
  The Committee is well aware of the obstacles which have prevented us from joining the Common Market on the terms of the Treaty of Rome, in particular our Commonwealth responsibilities, and these obstacles remain today, even were we invited to join. When we participated in forming the E.F.T.A. there was complete agreement between us and our partners that our aim must be to seek every possible opportunity of reaching some form of understanding and association with the European Economic Community. We decided to be and have tried to be and are trying to be outward-looking in every way, and friendly to that other group. We have pursued that aim assiduously ever since.
  My hon. Friend the Economic Secretary reminded the Committee yesterday that there is an E.F.T.A. proposal
  696
  now before the Six, designed to prevent increasing discrimination over the next eighteen months. We have as yet had no reply on that from the Six.
  The hon. Gentleman the Member for Stechford asked me what I thought of the chances of the proposed acceleration of the proposals of the Six taking place. I cannot say more than that I hope very much that they will not take place, because we think that if they do the area of difference will become greater and the problem of finding a basis for some kind of association more difficult. The E.F.T.A. proposal would give us a breathing space for eighteen months during which we should hope that a solution could be worked out with good will on all sides.
  An increase in the degree of discrimination would undoubtedly affect us adversely, because we should face discrimination in the markets of the lower-tariff countries of the Six, Germany and Benelux, where an important part of our trade lies. Perhaps even more important than the immediate loss of exports would be the tendency of people inside and outside the Six to start reorientating their trade arrangements.
  Lastly, a word about the E.F.T.A. This Association offers us and all the other members real advantages of very important increases in our trade. The Scandinavian countries have very high purchasing power, a very high rate of imports, and we and our partners in the E.F.T.A. are determined to spare no efforts to make this Association the outstanding success it promises to be.
  Before I sit down I must say this on pensions. Once again I must remind the Committee that it has not been usual to deal with pensions at the time of the Budget. It requires special legislation. They were on one notable occasion dealt with in the Budget when in 1951 the right hon. Gentleman concerned sought to reduce the Exchequer contribution from one-quarter of that of the other contributors to one-seventeenth. I do not know whether hon. Members opposite regard that as an encouraging precedent, but the Government intend to keep their pledge about retirement pensions.
  Our election pledge was perfectly clear. We said that we would ensure that pensioners would continue to share in the rising prosperity of the nation. Our

  697
  record on pensions is a good one, as the electorate realised, and we can be trusted to see that that record is maintained. In the meantime, it cannot be too often remembered that one of the best services of all that we can render to those living on small fixed incomes is to see that the cost of living is kept stable.
  In this Budget I have had to disappoint many people. I have no apologies if the Budget is a dull, uninspiring or even an unpopular one. The reverse virtues, though attractive, ought not necessarily to be high, far less dominating, priorities in deciding a Budget's content. The most important thing of all is that it should be in line with the requirements of the current and prospective economic situation, to safeguard the economy against a return of inflation. That is what I believe it to be, and believing that it would have been cowardly of me to have put forward any other proposals out of consideration of passing popularity. My proposals represent the best judgment I have been able to make, and I am very ready to stand on that judgment.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow; Committee to sit again Tomorrow.

  FINANCE BILL (PROCEDURE)
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the practice of the House relating to matters which may be included in Finance Bills, provision may be made in any Finance Bill introduced in the present Session for giving effect to any Resolution which may be passed by a Committee of the whole House and agreed to by the House for the purpose of continuing the power to make advances under section forty-two of the Finance Act, 1956 (subject to the limits for the time being in force on the borrowing powers of the bodies to which such advances may be made), and repealing the limit contained in that section on the total of the advances which may be so made.—[Mr. Amory.]
  9.58 p.m.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: A certain amount of comment has been made during debates in the last few days that hon. Members do not take adequate opportunity to probe the policies of Her Majesty's Government in regard to accountability in public expenditure. The hon. Member for
  698
  Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), in the course of a most interesting speech, a tew hours ago, drew attention to this fact and was constrained to say that he would travel a good way with me in this matter.
  This evening, I am seizing the opportunity of a procedural Motion on the Order Paper, and I cannot go outside the bounds of procedure and talk about the merits or otherwise of investment in nationalised industries. I am merely seeking to dissent from the continuing practice of financing nationalised industries within a section of the Finance Act.
  Before I do so, I should like to trace in a few words what has occurred in this matter during the last four years. I am extremely sorry that I shall have to detain the Chancellor of the Exchequer after his arduous period of four days.
  It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
  Proceedings on the Motion relating to Finance Bill (Procedure) exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[Mr. Redmayne.]
  Question again proposed.
  Mr. Nabarro: I apologise to my right hon. Friend for detaining him still further, but this is a matter of very great importance in principle. My right hon. Friend paused in the midst of his speech a few moments ago and asked a question, to which I responded, on the matter of public investment in nationalised industries. It is carried out, of course, within the framework of the Budget and the resulting Finance Act. It is for that reason that the procedural Motion stands on the Order Paper tonight immediately following the Budget debate.
  The history of this matter is a little curious. In 1956, under Section 42 of the Finance Act of that year permission was given by the House for the first time for £700 million to be provided from Exchequer funds for the financing of certain State industries. These industries are seven in number. They are the Central Electricity Generating Board, the Gas Council, the British Transport Commission, the British Overseas Airways Corporation, British European Airways, the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board, and the South of Scotland Electricity Board. The powers were taken for £700 million for two years only.

  699
  In 1958, the powers were renewed in Section 36 of the Finance Act of that year for a further period of one year. In 1959, similar powers were taken which renewed the sum of money required for a further period of one year, expiring this year. In the first two-year period, £700 million were involved. For the next period of one year £370 million were involved, raising the figure from £700 million to £1,070 million, and in 1959 the sum of money was again raised, from £1,070 million to £1,620 million.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer has told us that he proposes to continue this method of financing. He says that he bases his decision on the recommendation of the Radcliffe Committee. It would be out of order this evening—you were kind enough, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to advise me before the debate—for me to discuss the merits of this method of financing nationalised industries. I do not cavil at that, but what I am representing to the House is the danger of the position which now arises.
  Three weeks ago, we had a startling decision in the House, given by you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, startling because it reversed the views previously held as to—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Gordon Touche): As a matter of fact, it did not reverse any decision at all.
  Mr. Nabarro: If I may complete the sentence, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I was saying that it reversed the views previously held by a large number of private Members, myself included, who were entirely misguided, for we had always thought that we could debate the capital investment programmes of nationalised industries on the Consolidated Fund Bill. We were then told that we could not, and we accepted that decision. Then we explored with the Clerks how we could debate these capital investment programmes.
  I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Mr. C. Osborne) is not in the Chamber at this moment. The Chancellor referred to his letter in the Daily Telegraph today and I wanted to refer to it as well. We sought to ascertain how we could debate these huge sums of money, provided so largely by the taxpayers from budgetary funds, before the money is spent.
  700
  You have ruled, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that we cannot do it on the Consolidated Fund Bill. We have been told by the Clerks that the only way we can do it is on a Finance Bill. When the Chancellor presents his Finance Bill this year, I have no idea what sum of money he will put in it for nationalised industries. All I know—I am sure that the Chancellor will agree with me—is that his last powers were taken under Section 36 of the Finance Act, 1959, which created a maximum of £1,620 million under that provision. They have to be renewed this year. I do not know how much money he is to call for. It may be, I fancy, perhaps another £400 million, but we now have it clearly stated that we may debate, when that Clause is reached, any capital investment project of any of the State boards to which I have referred.
  The Chancellor is taking these powers for three years. The purpose of this Motion is to put into an appropriate Clause of the Finance Bill a sum of £500 million—or some such sum; it may be £450 million or £550 million—which, once it is through this House, is a forward commitment over three years over which Parliament will have no control whatever as to annual expenditure. What I want to say to the Chancellor, before we pass this Motion, is that three years ahead is much too long a period. I am not going to give him this money for three years.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member will appreciate that the three-year period really depends on the next Motion, which is the Financial Resolution. This Motion is purely procedural.
  Mr. Nabarro: I apologise, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. This Motion is very narrow and I am doing my best to keep within the rules of order while making my point.
  I do not cavil at this method of financing the nationalised industries, but does the Chancellor think it wise that, in the later stages of the Finance Bill, a group of my hon. Friends and I should be placed in the position, if we are to safeguard capital investment moneys in the State Boards, of having only a single opportunity on that occasion of challenging any one of hundreds of different capital investment projects in these seven boards?

  701
  Does my right hon. Friend really think it a good thing that on the appropriate Clause of the Finance Bill, for example, there should be a debate about the wisdom, or otherwise, of the Secretary of State for Scotland vesting £15 million in the North of Scotland Hydro-Electricity Board, and the advisability or otherwise of a particular project being built at Loch Shin? Is that an appropriate topic for a Clause in the Finance Bill?
  If we want Parliamentary accountability, then this is the only place and time that we can debate these matters. Is it a good thing that we should debate, in the appropriate capital investment provision for British Overseas Airways Corporation, the type of aircraft it is to buy in the next five years? Does the Chancellor really think that it is sound Parliamentary practice that the wisdom, or otherwise, of employing certain kinds of jet aircraft on a trans-Atlantic route should be debated in the later stages of a Finance Bill? Does he think that the provision of a North Midlands gas grid and the investment programme for it should appropriately be discussed in one of the later stages of the Finance Bill?
  No, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Without prejudice to the Chancellor's position, he has claimed that he wants to give to my hon. Friends and myself proper Parliamentary accountability. He said so today.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Derick Heathcoat Amory)The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Derick Heathcoat Amory) indicated assent.
  Mr. Nabarro: I see that he is nodding his assent. My appeal to him this evening is not to press this procedural Motion, because if he does he will put my hon. Friends and me in a rigid position. He will cause us—and I say this in all sincerity and without wishing to cause him embarrassment—when the appropriate Clause of the Bill is reached —and I have again consulted the Clerks to find out how far I would be in order —to move a reduction in the aggregate sum under that Clause, and then move for alteration of each of the constituent parts in capital sums for each nationalised industry.
  The effect of that in the later stages of a Finance Bill might be to cause a debate on capital investment in nationalised industries to go on for days
  702
  on end. It might do. I want those debates and I want to emphasis that nationalised industries have to be adequately financed.
  Mr. Charles Pannell: And debated.
  Mr. Nabarro: And debated—I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.
  The purpose of my speech is to try to get proper debate in proper conditions before the capital sums are spent.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Louth has again left us—
  Mr. Frederic Harris: He never came back.
  Mr. Nabarro: Perhaps he will feel that the reasonable thing to do is to apologise tomorrow to my hon. Friends and myself for his allegations that we never try to circumscribe and check public moneys being spent and that we have never protested in the past. On the contrary, I have been protesting in this vein for the last eight years. The Chancellor this time is not re-enacting these provisions for a single year, as he did in 1958 and 1959, but, in this procedural Motion, is proposing to re-enact them for three years, a period longer than ever before.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am sorry, but the hon. Member is mistaken. That comes in the Money Resolution, later.
  Mr. Nabarro: I am sorry to drift out of order. The Motion is very narrow, but I am trying to keep within order.
  I hope that I shall be in order if I refer to a speech which has been severely criticised and which I made last Tuesday. I hope that the passage which I am about to quote will not be criticised, for it found general agreement on both sides of the Committee at the time. I said:
  "I want to drive the present Chancellor of the Exchequer"—
  Mr. James Callaghan: On a point of order. Can we have your Ruling on this, Mr. Deputy-Speaker? Is it in order for an hon. Member to quote from a speech other than that of a Minister of the Crown in the same session?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think that the hon. Member for Cardiff. South-East

  703
  (Mr. Callaghan) is referring to the rule about proceedings in another place. It is quite in order to quote one's own speech in this House.
  Mr. Nabarro: Anybody would think that I was the Archbishop of Canterbury.
  I said:
  "I want to drive the present Chancellor of the Exchequer to a position whereby … he will take this Clause for financing nationalised industries out of the Finance Bill and have instead an annual Bill called …" Nationalised Industries (Capital Investment) Bill", with a separate Clause for the annual investment required for each of these State boards. By that means, we can devote appropriate scrutiny to it."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th April. 1960; Vol. 621, c. 312.]
  I make that suggestion to the Chancellor again this evening. I ask him to withdraw this procedural Motion. I ask my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary—and I am delighted to have him listening to me—to consider what will happen to his timetable on the Committee stage of the Finance Bill if my hon. Friends and I—and this is in no way a threatening gesture—[Laughter.] I am perfectly serious—put down Amendments dealing separately with the investment programme of seven nationalised industries in order to get a proper scrutiny and accountability for them and involving all the technical considerations inherent in investment in State boards. I say to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and to the Patronage Secretary that a debate of that kind would be wholly unsuited to the later Committee stages of a Finance Bill.
  I hope that the Chancellor will give some consideration to this matter, recognising that a new situation has now arisen. It was not until we were ruled out of order on the Consolidated Fund Bill—my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Knutsford (Lieut-Colonel Bromley-Davenport) is the cause of all this—[Laughter.] He is; it was his advanced meter reading college at Knutsford that was the cause of it. He raised it on the Consolidated Fund Bill and complained about capital expenditure. You, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, pulled him up and said, "This may not be debated". I questioned it. I was ruled to be wrong by you, and your decision was confirmed by Mr. Speaker. I then began to probe
  704
  around to find out where and when I could raise it.
  I found out. The Patronage Secretary is very cross with me at present. [Laughter.] I am not cross with him; he is a friend of mine. I hope that he will not be cross with me this evening for trying to prevent further embarrassment to his colleague and himself in the Whips' Office, and to the Parliamentary timetable when we get to the Committee stage of the Finance Bill. If this procedural Motion goes through without some assurances from the Government, there will be grave trouble during the last ten to fourteen days of June, and the early days of July.
  10.16 p.m.
  The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Anthony Barber): I think that I can deal fairly briefly with the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). Indeed, I must perforce do so because this is a purely procedural Motion and, unlike the following Resolution to which you referred, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, you ruled that I could not on this occasion deal with the suggestion which was made by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor when he opened his Budget that we should on this occasion take powers for a period of three years. Lest my hon. Friend should think that I am in any way shirking that issue, I shall be allowed, as I understand from you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to deal with that point on the next Motion.
  This Motion, as it was last year, is a purely procedural one. It is not as you have said, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, in any way concerned with the merits. Indeed, my hon. Friend said in passing a moment ago that we were going to have a certain amount of trouble on the Finance Bill when it came to the Committee stage if this Motion went through.
  I would remind him, with the best of good humour, that I looked up what happened during the Committee stage of the Finance Bill last year when dealing with a similar clause, and the only reference I could find to my hon. Friend was a remark by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) that he was not present for the debate. [Laughter.]
  Mr. Nabarro: Before hon. Gentlemen opposite laugh too loudly, perhaps my

  705
  hon. Friend will go back to the Treasury and look up my correspondence with his predecessor asking what consideration was being given to this matter by the Radcliffe Committee, and the reply from the Treasury that the Radcliffe Committee was dealing with it and would be making recommendations. It was because my hon. Friends and myself were awaiting those recommendations that we did not raise the matter on the Finance Bill as it was to be renewed for one year only. I hope that my hon. Friend will apologise for his unjustified allegation.
  Mr. Barber: I am sorry that my hon. Friend takes things so much to heart. I am subject to correction, but I do not think that the Radcliffe Committee pronounced on any aspect concerned with whether or not this matter should be considered in the Finance Bill, It did pronounce on the general question of financing the national industries, and I shall be happy to refer to that, too, when we deal with the next Motion.
  I would tell my hon. Friend that the Finance Bill is concerned primarily with the revenue and the national debt, and that it is not the practice of the House, without a Motion of this kind, to include a provision authorising expenditure of this sort. I appreciate the point of view of the hon. Member in favour of a separate Bill. But I am sure that he would be the first to agree that the way in which we finance nationalised industries—especially if we do so by direct means from the Exchequer—has a considerable bearing on the financial and economic policy of the Government.
  It is because we consider that this aspect of financing the nationalised industries is so tied up with the general financial and monetary policy of the Government that we think it should be included in the Finance Bill. Whatever views my hon. Friend may take as to the way in which the nationalised industries are to be financed, I hope that he will agree that if this matter is to be considered at all in a Bill it should be considered in the Finance Bill, as it was in 1956, 1958, and last year.
  My hon. Friend will note that the Motion contains some very important words in brackets. It says that the advances to be made under Section 42
  706
  of the 1956 Act, to which he referred, are to be made
  "subject to the limits for the time being in force on the borrowing powers of the bodies to which such advances may be made".
  Consequently, under the Finance Bill when it becomes an Act, if this procedural Motion is passed, as my right hon. Friend hopes it will be, any advances made by reference to that Section must be authorised by this House. There are precedents for this, since the same thing happened in 1956, 1958 and 1959, and so far as I know nothing contained in the Radcliffe Report has any bearing on this procedural Motion. Since it is so closely connected with the financial and monetary policy of the Government, it seems preferable that it should be dealt with in the Finance Bill, regardless of its merits.
  Sir Spencer Summers: Perhaps my hon. Friend will answer a question that is puzzling at least one hon. Member. If this procedure is adopted, are there or are there not opportunities, during the lifetime of this Parliament, for debating the capital expenditure of the nationalised industries other than in the debates on the Finance Bill?
  Mr. Barber: Yes. I can put the matter very generally. This procedural Motion and the following Motion, dealing with the Money Resolution, have been put down in order that we may have in the Finance Bill a Clause the main concern of which is to deal with the method of financing the nationalised industries. In other words, if these Motions are not passed tonight, and if the matter is not included in the Finance Bill, the nationalised industries' funds will have to be obtained from the market and guaranteed, as they were before 1956. In any event, quite apart from these provisions, this House will have the opportunity, as it has in the past—as referred to by the words in brackets—of approving or not approving the borrowing powers of the nationalised industries.
  Mr. Nabarro: I must strongly disagree with the last statement made by my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary. There is nothing to prevent the Government from bringing in a separate Bill to finance the nationalised industries.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. The hon. Member cannot make a second speech.
  Mr. Nabarro: Then may I ask a question? Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House why a separate Bill is considered impracticable? It is no use referring to these borrowing powers Bills; we get them every three or four years, whereas we want an annual scrutiny.
  Mr. Barber: I am sorry; I certainly did not mean to say—I do not think I said—that it was impracticable. I meant, as I think I said, that in the view of the Government it is undesirable that we should have a separate Bill.
  Mr. Nabarro: Why is it undesirable?
  Mr. Barber: For the simple reason, as I tried to explain, that we consider this a matter so closely bound up with the
  708
  Government's financial and monetary policy that it is a fit subject for inclusion in the Finance Bill. That is the view which has been taken during the past few years, and I hope that we shall take the same view this evening.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the practice of the House relating to matters which may be included in Finance Bills, provision may be made in any Finance Bill introduced in the present Session for giving effect to any Resolution which may be passed by a Committee of the whole House and agreed to by the House for the purpose of continuing the power to make advances under section forty-two of the Finance Act, 1956 (subject to the limits for the time being in force on the borrowing powers of the bodies to which such advances may be made), and repealing the limit contained in that section on the total of the advances which may be so made.

  FINANCE [EXCHEQUER ADVANCES]
  [Queen's Recommendation signified.]
  Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).
  [Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session relating to finance, it is expedient to authorise such increase in the sums which, under section forty-two of the Finance Act, 1956, are authorised or required to be issued out of the Consolidated Fund, raised by borrowing, or paid into the Exchequer, as may be attributable to any provision of the said Act of the present Session continuing the power to make advances under that section (subject to the limits for the time being in force on the borrowing powers of the bodies to which such advances may be made), and repealing the limit imposed by subsection (3) of that section on the total of the advances which may be made thereunder.—[Mr. Amory.]
  10.27 p.m.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: We have—
  Mr. Charles Pannell: On a point of order, Sir Gordon. May I now raise a point which I did not raise before, because I did not want to interrupt the hon. Gentleman. The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) referred once or twice to the Clerk of the House and I have always understood that that is out of order because it is the Chairman, or Mr. Speaker, who takes the responsibility. If, when the Clerk of the House, who is a servant of this House, gives advice informally, as he does, he is to be quoted in the House, I think that it will be a great embarrassment to him. I am sure that it is wrong.
  I do not know whether you can give a Ruling on the subject, but I hope that it is not something which is to become a precedent. I think that we must quote only Mr. Speaker, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, or the Chairman, but never a servant of the House. I wish to put in a most emphatic way to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Kidderminster that he does not advance his case by so doing.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: Further to that point of order, Sir Gordon. I humbly apologise if I was out of order in the reference which I made. I was not aware then that I was out of order, but I have now been reminded by my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft). I apologise for my error, which I shall not repeat.
  The Chairman: It is undoubtedly a very undesirable practice.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: It would appear that if this Motion is passed there will be a Clause in the Finance Bill which will provide for the financing of the nationalised industries for three years and, in that event, all the undesirable things which my hon. Friend has enumerated will take place. We shall endeavour to amend them, industry by industry and line by line, because we fundamentally feel that the financing of the nationalised industries should be taken out of the Budget and the Finance Bill and be used as a separate occasion.
  To stop these undesirable results occurring it would be in order if we voted against this Motion, because then, I think, the Government would be obliged to introduce a special Bill, which would be the Nationalised Industries Finance Bill and that Bill could be debated in the normal way. There would be a Second Reading and a Committee stage, possibly upstairs, or on the Floor of the House, and there should be a general discussion which would present an admirable opportunity for Parliament to exercise its control over the financing of the nationalised industries.
  Hon. Members have at various times complained in past years because the capital expenditure programme of the Government was never brought on to the Floor of the House of Commons. I remember the Leader of the Liberal Party intervening in various debates and making this point. In the Budget and in the Finance Bill we have meticulous opportunities of looking at the detailed structure of taxation and getting it changed. In the Estimates, particularly if the Labour Party would use its opportunities correctly throughout the year, we would have meticulous occasions on which we could look at the current expenditure of public Departments. Parliament, in its wisdom, and

  711
  our procedure have provided over many decades that the current Government expenditure and the current tax-raising capacity of the Government can be reviewed by hon. Members over very long periods of time.
  It is a novel procedure, arising out of the war and Socialist nationalisation Acts, that this vast new element of taxation has been injected into the community. It was not so before, and it forms an appreciable percentage of the total amount expended by the nation. We spend £5,000 million a year in current expenditure and raise that amount in taxes. Here is £500 million or £600 million, an appreciable amount, which is quite new in our finances and ought, I think, to be dealt with in a separate way.
  I invite the Committee to reject this Motion, because of the immense inconvenience that will ultimately be caused. That would oblige the Government to produce the sort of Bill that we can debate on Second Reading and in Committee and take some time over to see exactly what the plans of the nationalised industries are and approve them point by point. It is not only a question of separation of the nationalised industries financing from the general accounts of the nation which is important. There is this new provision that the Government want to take powers for three years to put into this Finance Bill this summer a sum which is to last for three years. After that time there will be no occasion for the next three years in which we can review the expenditure of the nationalised industries.
  I hope that the Committee will come to the conclusion that this is a reasonable idea and that we are not trying to introduce something novel or distasteful to the Committee. This is an occasion when quite substantial elements of policy will pass from our control unless we do something about it. I invite the Committee to say that this Motion should not be passed, in the knowledge that by so doing we shall secure a proper Money Bill, equivalent to the Finance Bill, related solely to the nationalised industries and giving us an annual opportunity of looking at their financing until such happy time supervenes when the finances of the nationalised in-
  712
  dustries can be hived off on to the market and we can forget about them.
  The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Anthony Barber): I was not sure whether I heard my noble Friend the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) correctly, but I understood him to say that he thought it might be a good idea if the particular Bill that he is advocating were considered upstairs. He has had far more Parliamentary experience than I have had, but it seems to me that if this matter is of such great importance— and I agree with him that it is—it would hardly be appropriate to have it considered by a small Committee. It would be better that it should be considered on the Floor of the House.
  In any event, on the question of whether or not we should have a separate Bill, I do not think—I hope that the Committee will excuse my brevity on this particular aspect—that there is anything I can add to what I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) on the earlier Motion, which, of course, was concerned exclusively with the question of whether or not his proposals should be contained in the Finance Bill, in a separate Bill, or dealt with in some other way.
  This Motion is concerned, as was the earlier one, with the financing of the capita] requirements of certain of the nationalised industries. It is needed, first, to authorise the inclusion in the Finance Bill of a Clause to allow for the issue from the Consolidated Fund of sums up to the aggregate amount of the limit prescribed by law in respect of borrowing by the nationalised industries. Secondly, it is concerned with borrowing by the Treasury of sums to allow us to replace the money issued. Thirdly, it is concerned with the application of repayments of principal and interest. That, as I understand, is the technical content of this Motion.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminister, who spoke on the earlier Motion, and my noble Friend have misunderstood one aspect. I say so respectfully, because it was a matter which did not appear to me when I first considered these two Motions. My hon. Friends will see that nowhere in the two Motions is there a reference to three years.

  713
  My right hon. Friend made clear what his proposals are. He wishes to take these powers for a further three years, but these two Motions are drawn deliberately in such a way as to leave open the question whether the powers should be taken for one year, two years, or three years—or, as was suggested by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) on the previous occasion, without any limit of time. Consequently, that is a matter which could properly be discussed in Committee on the Finance Bill.
  I hope that my hon. Friends will give us at any rate a little credit for this. In fairness to the Committee, it was thought that it was right that this matter should be left open this year, as in previous years.
  Mr. Nabarro: Will my hon. Friend answer this question? [Interruption.] I hear my hon. Friend the Member for Bebington (Sir H. Oakshott) grumbling at me for asking questions. I shall go on asking questions about these huge sums of money. Is it not the position that, unless we amend the Finance Bill to reduce the three-year period of financing to one year, my hon. Friend's explanation is no longer valid? The object of my exercise this evening is to get annual accountability. I cannot get annual accountability unless one of two things happens. Either this Motion is negatived, or the Government accept a reduction from three years to one year when the appropriate Clause of the Finance Bill comes along.
  Mr. Barber: I wish to make only two points on that. The first of them seems to be by far and away the most important on this aspect of the discussion. Whether it is one year, two years or three years does not arise on this Motion. I will be perfectly frank with my hon. Friend. If he cares, in Committee, to table an Amendment to the effect that he would prefer that it should be one year, although I did not put it as bluntly as this when I spoke a few moments ago, that is just the sort of question which we can consider during the Committee stage. But I do not think that it is right for it to be considered in any detail on the consideration of this Motion, which makes no reference to the period in question.
  714
  I hope that my words will not be taken too literally, but, broadly speaking, this Motion seeks to enable a Clause to be included in the Finance Bill, which Clause will be concerned primarily with the method of financing the nationalised industries. I thought that my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster said on the earlier Motion that he was not opposed to this method.
  Mr. Nabarro: I said that I would not cavil at this stage.
  Mr. Barber: I accept my hon. Friend's assurance. As this is concerned with the method of financing, at which he will not cavil at this stage, and as I can give him the assurance without any qualification that the period remains open for consideration in Committee on the Finance Bill, I hope that he will allow this Motion to pass.
  Major H. Legge-Bourke: On a point of order. I wonder whether I might put this point to you, Sir William. When we debated the Consolidated Fund Bill a Ruling was given about the possibility of raising matters of this sort. In view of the wording of this Motion, which actually refers to increasing sums issued from the Consolidated Fund, may I humbly suggest to you, Sir William, that perhaps the Chairman might be prepared to consider a revision of his Ruling on that matter for the future?
  The Deputy-Chairman (Major Sir William Anstrurher-Gray): I do not think that I would be prepared to undertake to do that just now.
  Mr. Ede: I should have thought that this was a matter that ought to be considered very seriously by both sides of the Committee from the point of view, if I might put it first, of the future convenience of the House. Some hon. Members who, like myself, have pre-war experience of the House will remember the annual frolic that we used to have on the Army Bill when large numbers of Amendments were put down and when it was expected that the House would sit all night considering them.
  It is quite clear from what the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) has said that whichever side happens to be in opposition to the

  715
  Government—I put it that way in view of the claim that the hon. Gentleman has made, and I expect that shortly there will be some dispute between himself and the noble Lord as to who is entitled to the room that will be allotted—we might quite easily, in periods when the House gets into a bad temper, be inconvenienced. Of course, new Members have never seen the House in that condition, but those who have know the inconveniences that can then be inflicted by a very small group on the rest of the House when this kind of continued discussion proceeds on this sort of matter.
  No one can contend that the matter of the financing of the capital of nationalised industries is other than a very important part of the national financing at the present time. Some of us take the view that as a result of criticism, and the fear of it, the public sector does not get the amount it ought to have compared with the private sector. Future discussions may not all be along the lines of recent discussions.
  Both points of view have the right of expression here. I would say to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if I may, that this is obviously a matter on which a snap decision ought not to be taken and that there should be discussions through the usual channels and with Members who are known to be interested in this sort of matter so that we can come to some arrangement by which the public interest can be served and by which Members desirous of raising these matters can do so without being accused, sometimes quite wrongly, of trying to inflict inconvenience upon other Members of the House.
  I only hope that I have said nothing that apportions any blame to anybody, but from this side of the Committee I continually hear questions being asked about how we can get more accountability for the nationalised industries. I think that it will be in the interests of both parties.
  I do not regard the occupants of the Treasury Bench as other than people holding a very short leasehold interest in the position they occupy. I have been a Member of the House of Commons long enough now to know that most unexpected reversals of fortune come. There may be a few right hon. and hon.
  716
  Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench tonight trying to relieve themselves of some possibility of discussion who may, in a few years' time, wish themselves back in the old days and be able to do what other hon. Members used to do. I would urge that this is not a matter which ought to be pressed till serious efforts have been made by those capable of speaking for both sides to ensure reasonable arrangements are made.
  I make no claim to speak for this side. I speak for myself only on this as on other matters, but I think that all ought to try to see whether we can get some reasonable arrangements on this highly important question.
  1.0.45 p.m.
  Sir Toby Low: The Committee is concerned, in this short discussion, with the very important question whether, between Finance Bills, we are or are not able to discuss the very large capital investments of the nationalised industries. I venture to intervene because I happen to have the duty, as Chairman of the Select Committee on the Nationalised Industries, of studying these problems. I venture to put this point to my right hon. and hon. Friends on both sides of the Committee. Surely it is possible to discuss the capital investment programmes of nationalised industries within our normal procedures.
  The nationalisation Acts make the specified Ministers responsible for approving the investment programmes of each nationalised industry. In their various different ways they make various Ministers responsible for approving borrowings. If the House wants at any time to raise a question whether a proposed investment programme is right or wrong, it has the opportunity in the ordinary course of business—Supply days, and so on.
  I sympathise with my hon. Friends in this, that the choice of subjects on those days is not ours on this side but the choice of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, and that, therefore, it is their choice whether those opportunities exist or not. That is certainly one trouble. To be fair to them, however, there is this fact, that there are nationalised industries days on which we do discuss important affairs of the nationalised industries.

  717
  I would remind right hon. and hon. Members, too, that the Select Committee of which I have the honour to be Chairman makes Reports to the House. I regret to say that the House does not always debate those Reports. In those Reports we go very carefully into not only the capital expenditure of the past of the nationalised industry we are reporting on at the time, but such programmes as may have been put in front of us, and more important still, into the general procedures.
  It seems to me that my hon. Friends here are over-pessimistic in saying that there is no opportunity between Finance Bills to discuss this very important question. There is opportunity if we choose to take advantage of it. My hon. Friend, who is always right in these matters, says, "If the Opposition choose to take advantage of it". I think that is true, but I repeat what I said a moment ago, that there are the nationalised industries days of which we can take advantage, too.
  Just to take up the point which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) made, I think that there is room here for improved procedures. Any hon. Gentleman who joined the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries would see the full difficulties, and I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that there can be some improvement in procedures.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: There seem to me to be two rather distinct issues here. First, there is the question whether the House has the opportunity, if it wishes to take it, to discuss the nationalised industries between Finance Bills. Secondly, there is the distinct issue of whether, if legislative sanction has to be given to these advances, it is better given as part of the Finance Bill or in a separate Bill.
  I think that it is not impossible that the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) is better on a small point than a big one. It seemed to me that he argued with greater cogency on this issue tonight than on the rather wider issue of the Budget earlier in our debates. He may have a very substantial point here, I am not sure that the Finance Bill is by any means the natural place in which to do it.
  Mr. Nabarro: More support.
  Mr. Jenkins: I did not like the suggestion of the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hincbingbrooke) that it should be taken out of the Finance Bill so that it might be sent to a Standing Committee. That is a singularly self-defeating proposal.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: The hon. Gentleman misunderstood me. I said that it should be a second Bill with a Second Reading and Committee stage either on the Floor of the House or in Standing Committee, as hon. Members thought fit.
  Mr. Jenkins: I can only think that the purpose of saying that—unless the noble Lord made a slip of the tongue which he would, on reflection, wish to withdraw—was to suggest that one of the advantages of the separate Bill would be that it might be taken in Standing Committee upstairs. It seems to me that one of the disadvantages of a separate Bill is that it might be taken upstairs. In spite of that, one should consider whether a separate Bill might not be more advantageous.
  The Finance Bill is, broadly speaking, a revenue-raising Bill, not a Bill for authorising expenditure. As the Chancellor knows and as the Committee knows, we on this side do not share the view of the hon. Member for Kidderminster and the noble Lord about the desirability of providing these funds for nationalised industries. We are in favour of doing this, but this is not the same as not being able to apply one's mind to the separate issue of how the House can best maintain control over this desirable objective.
  I would certainly hope that the Government would not close their mind to the possibility of having a separate Bill for the sake of logic and tidiness and for the sake of being able to debate this important issue possibly at a more convenient time than would be likely to arise during the Committee stage of the Finance Bill.
  Mr. Peter ThorneycroftI agree with the hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins). I do not think that this is at all an unimportant subject. Nor is it a very easy one. I do not think that we can decide it finally this evening.

  719
  One thing is quite certain, and that is that the Economic Secretary is right when he says that the provision of capital for the nationalised industries represents an essentially important part of our economy. Hon. Members on both sides of the Committee would agree about that. I hope that everybody would agree that not only is it important, but that we ought, as a House of Commons, to have proper facilities for debating it.
  It has rightly been said that there are facilities. Of course, there are facilities for debating every kind of expenditure here. But the Supply day arrangements are a little haphazard in this respect. I do not want to go into the reasons in detail, but I am not sure whether it is an accurate statement to say that the Supply day system gives us an opportunity of studying year by year what the total sum is to be, how it is divided and whether it is right.
  Therefore, my question is whether the Economic Secretary means what he says when he says that the Clause which is to be based on this Motion will be concerned with method only. If it were concerned with method only, there would be a very narrow debate. I have a feeling that the hon. Gentleman may be wrong about that and that, in fact, a Clause based, as it will be, on this Motion will go much wider than method and will, in fact, permit a debate upon the merits of this investment.
  I should like to be informed about that. I agree that afterwards one could discuss whether this was the best place to do it. I agree with the hon. Member for Stechford that it is probably not, but I should like to know what kind of central discussion of this central problem the Economic Secretary has in mind.
  Mr. Douglas Houghton: Whether the Finance Bill is the best place for dealing with this subject is a matter of opinion. So far, it has perhaps been the most convenient place. The subject has been dealt with in one Clause of the Finance Bill and, obviously, from many points of view, having it dealt with that way is preferable to having a separate Bill which would have to go through its various stages. But if there is to be trouble, then the Finance Bill is not the most convenient place for it.
  720
  I did not follow the Economic Secretary's argument that because this provides a method of financing the nationalised industries and prescribes a limit of finances to be provided, it is necessarily part of the Finance Bill. I know that this goes to the core, or near to the core, of some aspects of the Government's economic policy, but so do other branches of Government expenditure. On the hon. Gentleman's argument, we might as well stuff the whole of the Estimates into the Finance Bill.
  It is only a few moments ago that the Chancellor was saying that it was not customary to deal with pensions at the time of the Budget and that pensions were always dealt with in separate legislation. However, considerable sums of public money are always involved in National Insurance legislation. Do I not remember that we have hived off post-war credits into a separate Bill, which provides for extensions of the repayments of post-war credits to be made by regulations with which the House will deal on Tuesday? There is not over-much consistency in the arguments of the Economic Secretary about the appropriate places in the Finance Bill.
  The Chancellor has to decide where he is to have his spot of bother. Is he to have it on the Finance Bill, or will he have it separately and at another and possibly more convenient time? I am interested in whatever answer may be given to the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) about the scope of debate on the Clause, if it is in the Finance Bill. It could be argued that, as a matter of the convenience of the House, if the debate on the Clause would be as wide as a debate on the Bill, then it would be solely a matter of whether we had it in one place or another.
  Mr. Nabarro: I am interested in the technicalities involved. With his encyclopaedic knowledge of taxation matters, does not the hon. Gentleman readily admit that it is highly undesirable that, for example, technical fuel and power considerations and technical aeronautical considerations should be brought into debates on the Finance Bill? That is the position into which we are being forced by the Ruling to the effect that these matters cannot be

  721
  discussed on the Consolidated Fund Bill. I submit to the hon. Gentleman that it is wholly unsuitable to deal with that kind of thing in a Finance Bill.
  11.0 p.m.
  The Deputy-Chairman: I think that it would be for the convenience of the Committee if I were to remind the Committee that under Standing Order No. 1 (11)1 shall be bound to put the Question at twelve minutes past eleven. We thus have only twelve minutes left in which to debate this Motion.
  Mr. Houghton: I thank you for your warning, Sir William. If there are only twelve minutes to go, I will take only one of them.
  I was about to say to the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) that I have no orthodoxy about the question of the Finance Bill. If we can debate things on the Finance Bill, it does not seem to matter whether it is debated there or elsewhere, so long as that is a convenient Parliamentary time to deal with it.
  Will the Economic Secretary tell the Committee what the position would be if the Committee followed the advice of the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) and rejected this Motion? Can it not go in the Finance Bill? Would it require a separate Bill? Are the "unofficial Opposition" trying to get the Government in a mess? If so, it must rest with some of us on this side of the Committee to get them out of it.
  I am anxious to know. It may be rather late in the day to deal with this matter at a time other than the Finance Bill. I want some advice on that. We can sit all night and discuss the nationalised industries, just as we can sit all night and discuss anything else on the Finance Bill. It is solely a question of the timetable on the Bill; whether it will meet the convenience of the Committee and the House. That is the only point at issue. It is not a question of whether it should be here or anywhere else. It could be here if there were no trouble. If there is to be trouble, it had better be somewhere else.
  Mr. Barber: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor, who has been sitting here, has not been doing so merely out of courtesy to the Committee, but also be-
  722
  cause he, like my hon. Friends and right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, realise that this is an important matter. He has asked me to tell the Committee that he will give most careful consideration—and these are not meaningless words—to what has been said by the Committee.
  As regards this year, the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) was again on the question whether the Clause would be in the Finance Bill, or whether it should be contained in a separate Bill. I do not want to resit on a technicality, but I think that it is fair to remind the Committee that we considered this matter when we were considering the earlier Motion. I hope that as this Motion, and the earlier one, do not refer to any specific period, and as this method of dealing with the matter in the Finance Bill has been approved since the new method of financing was introduced in 1956, on this occasion the Committee will agree that we might follow the same procedure.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) raised the important question of the scope of the debate. I would not be so bold as to pretend that I could give him any definite idea as to what the scope of the debate might be. I looked quickly at the debates that took place in 1958 and 1959. In 1958, there was virtually no debate so I did not get much help from HANSARD. Last year, the only question which was debated was that of the period for which the powers should be taken. I feel that it would be wrong of me, at any rate without giving the matter further consideration, to try, "off the cuff ", to give any answer to my hon. Friends on this point.
  Mr. Douglas Jay: Since the Economic Secretary has a few minutes left, can he tell us what will be contained in this Clause in the Finance Bill, which we have not got but which he proposes to introduce?
  Mr. Nabarro: I want to make two points which do not seem to have been covered. The word "convenience" has been used. What I have said this evening in connection with the two Motions is essentially a matter of convenience for the House of Commons. It is a question how and where this debate is to take

  723
  place. I would remind the hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) that there is a grave deficiency in our debates in connection with the Clause for refinancing nationalised industries, whether it is annually or every three years, because only the aggregate sum is referred to. I quote from the principal Act of 1956. Section 42 (3) says:
  "Advances made under this section shall not together exceed the sum of £700 million."
  The trouble is that the House of Commons has no breakdown of the £700 million, as between the seven industries. I may thoroughly approve the amount of money for one industry, but disapprove the amount for another, and when only the aggregate sum is put down I am forced, first, to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to break down the amount for me, in reply to a Parliamentary Question, and then, when I have had that Answer, I have to put down an Amendment first to reduce the aggregate sum and then to deal with each constituent part seven times.
  The Chairman: That question arises on the Bill rather than on the Money Resolution.
  Mr. Barber: I want to put one consideration to my hon. Friend. As I understand the matter, no loan can be made out of the Consolidated Fund to any nationalised industry unless the approval of the House has been given. If my hon. Friend will look at this Motion and the earlier one he will see that they contain a specific provision that the power to make advances under Section 42 of the Finance Act, 1956 shall be
  "subject to the limits for the time being in force on the borrowing powers of the bodies to which such advances may be made."
  Mr. Nabarro Mr. Nabarro indicated dissent.
  Mr. Barber: My hon. Friend shakes his head, but I can only tell him that the House gave certain borrowing powers to the nationalised industries and that it is only within the limits of the borrowing powers that the House grants that the Clause will have any effect. I would have thought that was a fairly good safeguard.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: As the Economic Secretary has been been at pains to assure us that the Chancellor of the
  724
  Exchequer has been listening very carefully to the debate and is prepared to consider this matter, is it not desirable that this Motion should be withdrawn, so that the Government shall have an opportunity to think again and, if necessary, put it down again for Monday?
  Mr. Barber: I do not think that that is reasonable. So far as I know this sort of Motion has never been debated in the past—certainly not in the last two years. Whatever my hon. Friend may say, at least I can give him credit for this: he is entitled to raise this matter. But last year, when official spokesmen of the Opposition raised a matter concerned not with the Money Resolution— because that has never been debated before, so far as I know—but with the Clause in the Finance Bill, there was never any suggestion that this matter was not fit for the Finance Bill.
  My hon. Friend is at least beginning to do something to convert the Opposition to his view, and I only hope that that will be as great an embarrassment to him as he thought the Opposition's support would be to my right hon. Friend.
  Mr. Nabarro: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he has said, but he has completely failed to deal with two essential points. The first is that we can deal only with the aggregate amount in this Clause. We do not have the opportunity of dealing with the individual capital sums for each of the seven industries.
  My second point is made to my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North (Sir T. Low). It is nonsense for him to say that hon. Members like myself, sitting on the Government benches, can raise these matters on Supply days. Supply days belong to Her Majesty's Opposition. There are only three days devoted to discussing the nationalised industries which are Supply days, and the subjects belong to the Opposition.
  Mr. Barber: They are not Supply days.
  Mr. Nabarro: They are Supply days. I have protested about this year after year and I have been told that we on the Government benches do not select the subjects.—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am glad that hon. Members opposite confirm what I say.

  725
  I must reinforce the appeal made by I he hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins). This is a matter involving several hundreds of millions of pounds and I am thoroughly dissatisfied. Having regard to the accusation made by the absent hon. Member for Louth (Mr. C. Osborne), in today's Daily Telegraph, that I do not exercise proper control and accountability over public funds, I propose to give a demonstration this evening. If my hon. Friend will not withdraw this
  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow.
  Motion so that we may debate it on Monday, I shall shout loudly, "No," when the Question is put to the Committee.
  It being twelve minutes after Eleven o'clock, three quarters of an hour after the House had resolved itself into the Committee, The CHAIRMAN put the Question pursuant to Standing Order No. J (Sittings of the House): —
  The Committee divided: Ayes 100, Noes 20.

  Division No. 71.

  AYES

  [11.12 p.m.

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Peel, John

  Allason, James

  Glyn, Dr. Alan (Clapham)

  Pitt, Miss Edith

  Amory,Rt.Hn.D.Heathcoat(Tiv'tn)

  Glyn, Col. Richard H. (Dorset, N.)

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Barber, Anthony

  Goodhart, Philip

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Barter, John

  Goodhew, Victor

  Redmayne, Rt. Hon. Martin

  Batsford, Brian

  Green, Alan

  Rees, Hugh

  Bell, Ronald (S. Bucks.)

  Hamilton, Michael (Wellingborough)

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Berkeley, Humphry

  Holland, Philip

  Roots, William

  Bingham, R. M.

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral John

  Sharples, Richard

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Hughes-Young, Michael

  Shaw, M.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Shepherd, William

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Jackson, John

  Smith, Dudley (Br'ntf'rd & Chiswick)

  Bossom, Clive

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Bourne-Arton, A.

  Johnson Smith, Geoffrey

  Storey, Sir Samuel

  Box, Donald

  Kirk, Peter

  Studholme, Sir Henry

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Leavey, J. A.

  Summers, Sir Spencer (Aylesbury)

  Brooman-White, R.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. H.

  Tapsell, Peter

  Bryan, Paul

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Thomas, Peter (Conway)

  Carr, Robert (Mitcham)

  Litchfield, Capt. John

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. Peter

  Chataway, Christopher

  McMaster, Stanley R.

  Turner, Colin

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Clark, William (Nottingham, S.)

  Mathew, Robert (Honiton)

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Cooke, Robert

  Matthews, Gordon (Meriden)

  Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

  Corfield, F. V.

  Mills, Stratton

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Curran, Charles

  Morgan, William

  Williams, Dudley (Exeter)

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Noble, Michael

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Deedes, W. F.

  Nugent, Sir Richard

  Wise, A. R.

  Elliott, R. W.

  Oakshott, Sir Hendrie

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Emery, Peter

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Woodhouse, C. M.

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Osborne, Cyril (Louth)

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Farr, John

  Page, A. J. (Harrow, W.)

  Finlay, Graeme

  Page, Graham

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Fraser, Ian (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Pearson, Frank (Clitheroe)

  Mr. J. E. B. Hill and Mr.Whitelaw.

  Gibson-Watt, David

  NOES

  Callaghan, James

  Holt, Arthur

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Cronin, John

  Houghton, Douglas

  Peart, Frederick

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Jay, Rt. Hon. Douglas

  Rankin, John

  Doer, George

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Willey, Frederick

  Ede, Rt. Hon. Chuter

  Lawson, George

  Hannan, William

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Hayman, F. H.

  Mellish, R. J.

  Mr. Nabarro and Sir L. Plummer.

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Millan, Bruce

  HORTICULTURE IMPROVEMENT SCHEME
  11.20 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. J. E. B. Godber): I beg to move,
  That the Horticulture Improvement Scheme, 1960, a draft of which was laid before this House on 23rd March, be approved.
  This draft scheme, which applies to the whole of the United Kingdom, is the first to be introduced under Part I of the Horticulture Act, 1960. It was laid before Parliament the day after the Act received Royal Assent. The main provisions of the scheme were set out in the White Paper on Horticulture, published in November last. The draft scheme now before us rounds off the detailed provisions and gives legal form to matters that have already been the subject of considerable discussion during the passage of the Horticulture Bill through Parliament. I do not think, therefore, that the House would expect me to speak at length on the detailed provisions of the scheme.
  The House will recall that the scheme is designed to help horticultural producers, either separately or through their co-operative marketing associations, to improve the efficiency of their businesses, with special emphasis on improved facilities for the storage and preparation for market of horticultural produce. The draft scheme provides for grants of two kinds of business: first, production businesses run by growers as individuals, partnerships or companies; secondly, marketing businesses run by co-operative associations. The conditions of eligibility for a horticultural business are set out in paragraph 3 of the draft scheme. Eligibility for a horticultural marketing business is dealt with in paragraph 4 of the draft scheme.
  The main requirement for a marketing business is the condition as to the cooperative character of the body concerned, which is laid down in subsection (4) of Section 8 of the Act. The Schedule of facilities for which grants will be payable corresponds closely to the appendix in the White Paper. The only significant difference is that the draft scheme lists in detail the items of plant
  728
  and equipment for which grant will be payable.
  I turn now to the administration of the scheme. In England and Wales, applications will be received in the divisional offices of the Ministry—in Scotland, arrangements will be somewhat different—and proposals will be dealt with from a technical standpoint in the first place by qualified horticultural officers of the National Agricultural Advisory Service. These officials are already in touch with a very high proportion of all potential applicants and this scheme will give new point to many of these existing contacts. The Agricultural Land Service will advise on applications relating to buildings and other fixed equipment.
  My right hon. Friend is looking to the county agricultural executive committees to make a valuable contribution to the successful operation of this scheme. Members of committees will be consulted in difficult or borderline cases and will consider representations from persons aggrieved by official decisions. These functions of C.A.E.C.s are now a well-established feature of the administration of our grant and subsidy schemes.
  My right hon. Friends' aim all along has been that we should be able to start considering applications from 1st April onwards. Accordingly, it has been announced that, as from last Friday, provisional applications could be accepted on the basis of the draft scheme now before us. No proposals, of course, have been approved, nor grants paid in advance of Parliament's approval of the draft scheme, but this arrangement has made it possible for these plans to go ahead.
  It will be interesting to hon. Members to know that up until Wednesday afternoon this week we have had about 1,000 inquiries and 50 applications have now been received. That is an encouraging indication of the interest taken in this scheme. Growers are heeding our advice to think about their proposals carefully and discuss them with the local advisory staff before submitting formal applications. The figures I have given show the interest which has already been generated.
  This scheme is the first to be designed specifically for horticulture. Unless I am

  729
  mistaken in my judgment of the horticulture industry, it will quickly respond to this challenge and grasp with both hands these new opportunities, which were welcomed by both sides of the House.
  I therefore commend the scheme to the House with every confidence.
  11.25 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Peart: The Parliamentary Secretary gave us encouraging news when he said that already 1,000 inquiries have been received and 50 applicants—individual producers, I presume—had submitted applications for grant under the Scheme. We welcome that. As the Parliamentary Secretary quite rightly said, this is a Measure which has the approval of both parties. I know that it is very late and I promised not to make a long speech, in view of the previous debate. I shall not make a long speech.
  Mr. James Callaghan: Why not?
  Mr. Peart: I gave a promise, and that is enough. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) can say what he likes, but I speak for myself. I promised the Parliamentary Secretary, and I shall keep my promise.
  This is an improvement scheme, the purpose of which is to make available under the Horticulture Act, which was approved in the House, £7½ million for improvements. This is a considerable sum of money. Grants under the scheme will amount to one-third of the costs of improvements, although I think that the House should recognise that even under the farm improvement scheme, which was previous to this scheme, horticulturists will obtain approximately £500,000. My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) pointed this out on a previous occasion. However, we support the main provisions of the scheme.
  The scheme sets out detailed conditions of eligibility and how to qualify. Paragraph 3 (1, a) says that, to become eligible, the applicant must have at least four acres of land. Paragraph 3 (1, b) says that the Minister must be satisfied that:
  "the business would, after the approved proposals have been carried out, be capable of yielding an adequate return."
  730
  In other words, applicants must show that they are engaged in a full-time occupation, and the businesses must be conducted with reasonable efficiency.
  The scheme also contains definitions for incentive production. These have not been mentioned. I can understand why. The Parliamentary Secretary has been limited. We welcome paragraph 3 (2) dealing with
  "the area of any eligible land in glasshouses, or in buildings used for the production of rhubarb or mushrooms."
  We accept the definition of
  "land used for growing horticultural produce under movable lights or under fixed structures clad with translucent material other than glass, or for growing watercress."
  We believe that those definitions are right.
  How many holdings will be affected by the scheme? During the Second Reading of the Bill and in Committee the Government estimated that approximately 25,000 to 35,000 businesses were likely to be eligible. This evening the Minister has said that already 1,000 inquiries have been made. I hope that he will be proved right and that many producers will benefit from the scheme. We tried to improve it. We hoped that there would be flexibility. I will not weary the Parliamentary Secretary or hon. Members with the arguments which we raised in Standing Committee when we discussed the Measure. They are on record, and I could have quoted them. We tried to have more flexibility because we were afraid that the small producers would not come under the scheme.
  I hope that after some time, probably twelve months or two years, the Minister will look at the scheme again carefully to consider how it is working and whether some small producers would benefit who are now able to produce efficiently and obtain a reasonable livelihood, but do not come within the rigid definition laid down in the scheme. We argued over and over again in Committee that the small producer's position should be safeguarded.
  However, we are very glad that in the scheme there is an innovation, and the Government are to be complimented upon it. It is that horticultural marketing associations and businesses will be

  731
  reckoned for grant. During the Committee stage the hon. Member for Guild-ford (Sir R. Nugent) and several of my hon. Friends stressed this point. We are pleased that it has now been accepted that in a major scheme for the giving of grants producer co-operatives are to be considered. We therefore welcome the scheme.
  We know, in view of what the Minister has said and in view of the applications, that the burden of the scheme will fall upon the National Advisory Service. On Second Reading and in Committee I put questions to the Minister about the Horticultural Advisory Service. We hope that there will be no weakening of this service. If the scheme is to be successful the Horticultural Advisory Service must be improved. I am certain that that is the view of the Minister, because in the end if the scheme is to be successful and if county agricultural committees are to approve schemes and to assist, the main recommendation work must be done by the National Advisory Service personnel. Therefore, in the operation of the scheme the key people must obviously be the horticultural advisers.
  I should have liked this evening to tempt the hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke) to argue that the scheme by itself is not sufficient for the horticultural industry. We could no doubt have strayed out of order by talking about tariffs, etc., and the application for an increase of tariff on tomatoes which has gone in to the Board of Trade. However, while I accept that, I believe that the scheme is important. It must work. We wish it success and we hope that it will be administered wisely.
  11.32 p.m.
  Major H. Legge-Bourke: As the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) has reminded the House, I was no lover of the Bill when it first appeared and I was no greater lover of it when it came back from Committee. However, we have the scheme and I certainly wish it well, despite all my opposition in the past. Personally, I do not think that it will do what the Government think it will. I hope that it does for their sake and for the sake of the growers. I agree with the final re-
  732
  marks of the hon. Member for Workington.
  I wish to ask only one question arising out of the Statutory Instrument which I find very hard to understand. Paragraph 3 (1, c) refers to
  "the useful life of the facility to be provided"
  and says that it cannot be given to somebody in tenancy on a holding unless the unexpired portion of the tenancy is
  "not less than the useful life of the facility."
  I may be very blind, but I cannot find that those words are used anywhere in the Act. It seems to me, as far as certain facilities are concerned, to mean that the unexpired tenancy has got to be an awfully long one. Some of the facilities which can be granted can be seen in the Schedule:
  "Provision of means of sewage disposal … Making and improvement of roads, fords, bridges, railway crossings and under-passes."
  I do not know what the useful life of such things is regarded as being, but I should have thought that it was a great deal longer than some tenancies may be.
  It seems to me to be rather serious that people who are in need of the assistance that the House wishes to give to the growers can be ruled out simply because a particular facility which they are being granted happens to have a longer life than the remaining tenancy of the holding.
  11.35 p.m.
  Mr. Godber: With the leave of the House, I should like to say to the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) that I am grateful to him for his comments about the scheme. I am glad that it has the support of both sides of the House. I would merely say to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke) that I am glad that he raised his point. It is one which might have led to misunderstanding, which I am glad to be able to clear up now.
  What we are really saying here is that we must see that there is some reasonable security of tenure. In the farm improvement scheme we provide for reasonable security of tenure and say that for those capital improvements we must have a definite continuity for a period of time

  733
  which we have specified in some cases as being 15 years. In this case we are not laying down such a hard and fast rule as we attempted there. The normal agricultural tenancy which carries on from year to year will normally suffice. There are certain cases, however, where some tenant may have an unexpired lease of a definite period of years—two or three years—to run out. Clearly it would be wrong for us to grant-aid some long-term facility when there is only a short period to run. We would consider an ordinary tenancy under the Agricultural Holdings Act, which gives a very considerable degree of security, as normally adequate.
  I hope that that assurance will give comfort to my hon. and gallant Friend. I am glad that he raised the question so that I could give that assurance.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Horticulture Improvement Scheme, 1960, a draft of which was laid before this House on 23rd March, be approved.

  EDUCATION, GLASGOW
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. J. E. B. Hill.]
  11.37 p.m.
  Mr. John Rankin: A year ago I dealt in the House with Glasgow's serious teacher shortage and offered what I thought were helpful suggestions. I am afraid that little attention was paid to them. I hope that tonight in calling attention to the problems created by the school leaver that I may have more success.
  However, before doing so, I want to remind the Joint-Under Secretary of State for Scotland that his hon. Friend who spoke for him last March made a definite promise that consideration would be given to the pension-plus-salary recommendation of the Knox Committee. The Scottish Office has had a year to consider its attitude and I hope that I shall hear something definite from the Joint Under-Secretary tonight.
  Last March I warned that, if the Secretary of State did not show more regard for what was happening in Glasgow, part-time education would require to be introduced into the city's educational system. That happened last autumn. Since the spring term started, 2,197 secondary pupils have been subjected to part-time education in Glasgow and 1,174 pupils in 14 primary schools are in the same position. While rolls in primary schools have fallen by 3,000 pupils, the school staffs have dropped by 100, so that the average size of classes remains at 39.
  In secondary schools the rolls are up by 4,000 in the last year, due to the increased influx of first-year pupils and also to the greater numbers remaining in school to the fourth and subsequent years. In 1954 the figure was 4,500. Last year it had risen to 6,600, a most remarkable and admirable tendency, and one which should be encouraged. Yet the number of secondary school teachers rose by only 57, a totally inadequate increase. Altogether, if the Glasgow teacher shortage problem is to be met, between 1,000 and 1,100 teachers are now required to bring classes down to the maximum number regulated by the education code, to replace teachers over

  735
  70 years of age and to displace uncertificated teachers. To do this Glasgow must offer inducements, particularly in housing, promotion and salaries.
  I trust that tonight the hon. Gentleman will be able to tell me what steps he has been taking in these matters over the last year. However, apart from his emergency plans for Glasgow, the hon. Gentleman must have a long-term plan for overcoming the staffing shortage in Scotland. I should like to know how far his plans for the expansion of training facilities will meet Scotland's teaching requirements, bearing in mind the current shortage of 3,000 teachers.
  I now want to look briefly at a problem which faces us in Glasgow and also in Scotland as a whole; that presented by the school leaver. In December of this year National Service will cease, so that vacancies created by the call-up will no longer be available. At the same time the introduction of new technologies and new industrial processes intensifies our difficulties. Computers, electronics and integration tend to diminish our dependence on the human element, while radiation and reactor technologies speed up automation.
  These new technologies and new processes are making themselves felt, particularly in office work. They thus help to increase the number of those who are looking for jobs. This situation makes the problem created by the school leaver even more important. In 1956 15,600 boys and girls left school in Glasgow. In 1962 20,200 will leave. On 10th December, 1956, there were 360 young persons unemployed in Glasgow. At the corresponding date last year the number was 1,126. Also, the incidence is greater in the case of boys, because for every girl who was unemployed there were six boys. If one compares Glasgow's situation with that prevailing in a like city, one finds that for every boy unemployed in Birmingham there are 14 boys unemployed in Glasgow.
  That is the problem we face, and I ask what we can do to help. I suggest the extension of day-release schemes, which would create more training places and so lead to the recruitment of staff to replace those on day release. That means the co-operation of industry and commerce and I am sure that they will recognise their responsibilities to the
  736
  nation and to youth in this matter. For the hon. Member it means more teachers and, if he is to help in meeting this problem, he must provide more facilities for the school youth service. That is already being shamefully neglected by the Secretary of State for Scotland, even before the problem of the bulge is felt. If the right hon. Gentleman does not get a move on, he will simply shed his problems on the police courts in later years.
  Years ago, it was said that accommodation for the storage of equipment for youth work should be provided in schools when they were being built. The Secretary of State refused to allow that. Now, in addition to that handicap, the youth service, at the most vital period of its existence, suffers through lack of premises, playing fields and swimming ponds. Crabbed old age refuses to loosen the purse strings, so the main job of some of the groups is to raise money, and I suppose that that can be called "working out their own salvation." I hope that the Secretary of State can at least spare a sardonic grin as he views this unhappy scene.
  However, the right hon. Gentleman is not entirely devoid of conscience, for he says in paragraph 11 of Circular 405:
  "Progress in the remainder of the field of Further Education, in what is usually known as informal or social or recreational education, has been disappointing in recent years and the Secretary of State is particularly concerned about the provision made for young people."
  Personally, I am glad to hear of his concern, because that circular from his office has now been in the hands of local authorities for more than a year and they see no practical evidence as yet of the right hon. Gentleman's concern. Indeed, the opposite has been the case, for he has recently shown his disappointment at Glasgow for seeking to relieve his concern by telling it that it could build only two youth centres when the local authority firmly believes, from its knowledge and experience, that no fewer than four are necessary.
  Now, under the general grant regulations, a duty is laid on the Secretary of State to see that the provision made by an education authority is up to reasonable standards, but the right hon. Gentleman is not doing that in respect of the youth service. He is failing in his duty.

  737
  Again, in paragraph 19 of Circular 405, dealing with premises and equipment, local authorities are advised to refer for guidance to Building Bulletin No. 5, but in practice that bulletin is not being used as a guide. It has become a measuring rod and the new Nautical College in Glasgow provides a case in point. The allocation in that college for administrative accommodation, communal accommodation and circulation was 16,470 sq. ft. Twelve thousand sq. ft. are required for one gymnasium, assembly hall, and dining room.
  This pattern of allocation barely leaves room for functional efficiency, and gives architects little freedom in regard to interior design and those aesthetic considerations which are so important in further education centres. I urge on the hon. Gentleman the need for equipping these centres with swimming pools. The policy of making swimming part of a young person's education should not be abandoned at the school-leaving age. Swimming has everything to recommend it. It is a body builder, an exercise in community spirit, a cleanser, and sometimes a very present aid in time of trouble. May we have a declaration from the hon. Gentleman tonight about the policy he proposes to pursue in regard to the place of swimming in further education?
  I have tried to show briefly that the problem presented by the school leaver is urgent and serious. There is a little time on our side, though not much, for action. But action must be speedy. It must be speedier than the action that came in response to the speech I made on 25th March, 1959.
  I therefore put these proposals to the hon. Gentleman for his consideration. First, a return to the former junior instruction centres, but not on the "bare bones" pattern of the previous classes. Although I refer to them as junior instruction centres, I am not necessarily suggesting that that should toe the description. A new description could be found. In the post-depression period these classes performed a very useful function in our great industrial cities. I think that their revival could be helpful now.
  Secondly, the hon. Gentleman's Department must contact the Ministry of Labour immediately with a view to
  738
  establishing in Glasgow an apprenticeship training centre. Thirdly, as I have already suggested, the voluntary day-release facilities should be extended. Fourthly, and finally, I ask the hon. Gentleman to see that provision for training unemployed young people is made available in further education establishments.
  In Cmnd. 603 "Education in Scotland, The Next Step", we were told:
  "More and more young people today want to avail themselves of opportunities for secondary and further education. It is the Government's aim to ensure that the opportunities offered meet all their needs and aspirations.
  That may well be the aim of the Government. To date it has not been their achievement.
  11.54 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Niall Macpherson): The hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin), even at this late hour, certainly need make no apology for raising the question of education in Glasgow, a question which he quite rightly said he raised a year ago.
  He started by putting a question to me about the consideration that had been given to the recommendation of the Knox Committee on full pay and full pensions.
  That undertaking given by the then Joint Under-Secretary—now Lord Craigton—that full consideration would be given to that recommendation, was carried out. The upshot was the allowance of £100 to any teacher who had retired, was over 65 years of age, and came back into service and served for at least one year.
  Mr. Rankin: Deception.
  Mr. Macpherson: The hon. Member says, "Deception". That was the result of the consideration. Although we are sorry we are not able to go as far as he would like, we have made abundantly clear—as my right hon. Friend made clear in the Estimates debates last year —what difficulties the recommendation raised.
  The hon. Member went on to speak about part-time education in Glasgow. The situation is improving, and already the figures are slightly better than the

  739
  ones he gave. There has been some part-time education in schools this winter, and there still is. Glasgow has gone to a great deal of trouble to reorganise its primary schools in order to save staff. Nevertheless, on 1st April half-time instruction was in force in 20 classes in primary schools, involving 700 pupils. There was no half-time instruction in secondary schools, but on 1st April there were six schools which had to put up with some degree of part-time instruction, involving a loss of periods, per week, of from one to four. Just under 1,500 pupils were affected. The position has improved noticeably in the last fortnight and is likely to improve still further in secondary schools.
  It is noteworthy that in the counties of Dunbarton, Lanark, Renfrew, Ayr and Fife there are only two part-time classes at present, and I am told there will probably be none after Easter. Yet three of these five counties have worse staffing ratios than Glasgow. To some extent, therefore, this is an internal problem for Glasgow rather than a national one. The difficulties being experienced in Glasgow are a reflection of the brute fact that there are not enough teachers to do the work the nation wants done in education.
  The hon. Member suggested that there were special circumstances in Glasgow for which special remedies are necessary. He mentioned inducements, such as housing, promotion and salaries. Under housing legislation applications for local authority houses are judged on the test of housing need. No one class, profession or calling is entitled to houses more than another. It is for each housing authority to judge the housing need of each case, having regard to its own housing policy. Some housing authorities have allocated some of their houses to teachers, but as far as I know Glasgow has not. But it would be difficult to sustain the proposition, for Glasgow or anywhere else, that houses should be provided for teachers, and teachers alone, irrespective of housing need.
  The policy in this respect, laid down under the Labour Government in 1948, by the then Secretary of State for Scotland, was that teachers ought not to be a privileged class in regard to housing. The position is that local authorities may provide a house only for the holder of
  740
  a specific post if it can be shown that the post cannot be filled unless the house is provided. In addition, houses are allowed for headmasters if it is the existing practice of the local authority to provide such houses, or if it is in the interest of the school and the community that a headmaster's house should be provided for a new school.
  An exception to this practice has already been made in Glasgow. In 1956, because of staffing difficulties, permission was given to the authority to provide houses to be let to teachers at an economic rent, that is to say, at a rent sufficient to cover the capital repayments and interest charges on the loan, together with an annual sum for maintenance and repairs. So far no proposals have been received from the authority to provide houses for teachers on this basis which is not very different from the basis on which houses are provided for key workers in many housing authority areas.
  The hon. Gentleman mentioned the question of promotion. That is largely a matter within the competence of the education authority. Glasgow provides for promotion only from within its own ranks, whereas other authorities attract teachers from elsewhere. The result is that Glasgow is bound to lose some teachers who are attracted elsewhere but does not attract any by throwing its promotion opportunities open to teachers from other areas. To some extent staffing problems must be affected by that policy. In the most recent Regulations we have made provision for easing the promotion problem of Glasgow, and I think that has been appreciated.
  The hon. Member asked about salaries. I do not think he would expect me to go very far into that subject. The question of a special inducement for teachers in Glasgow has been examined on numerous occasions by the National Joint Council, but the Council has not approved it.
  Of course, the problems of Glasgow are not unique, whether they be problems of discipline or locality or the type of school. If a special inducement were claimed for Glasgow, it would be difficult to refrain from giving special inducements to other areas in which very similar circumstances apply. In any case, this decision was reached a long

  741
  time ago, just after the war, and the Council adhered to the decision that salaries should be on a national basis and not merely minimum salaries.
  The hon. Gentleman then dealt with the question of employment. Of course, he appreciates that that is largely a labour problem. He was, for example, comparing the unemployment of boys in Glasgow with the position in Birmingham. He talked about day releases. As he knows, provisions have been made for day releases in the future. He stressed the fact that this is voluntary. We are doing our best to persuade employers to release their young employees for a day a week and we are making provision for the future in the confident belief that they will do so more and more.
  I cannot separate the day releases and evening courses, but up to the end of last year, for the session 1958–59, the number of part-time students rose by 8 per cent. He suggested more facilities for the school youth service. I am not certain what he meant or whether he was referring to the Youth Employment Service, or to youth work in the schools. Recently I had an opportunity of seeing some of this work and I was much impressed by what was being done in Glasgow Youth work is carried out in the schools mostly in the evenings on a voluntary basis.
  The hon. Gentleman spoke also of the provision of swimming pools and asked what was being done about that. The position is that the general rules provided by the Secretary of State for the building of schools are generous, and education authorities have a wide discretion how they may use this generous provision; some authorities are using
  742
  part of this space to provide instructional pools, and some are using part of the space to provide the accommodation for the storage of equipment for youth work, to which the hon. Gentleman referred.
  Under the Physical Training and Recreation Act, local authorities are permitted to make provision for swimming, and it has been recent policy to emphasise the importance of provision of this kind.
  The hon. Gentleman referred to apprenticeships. He will realise that apprenticeship involves employment; but, if he meant pre-apprenticeship, provision is being made for pre-apprenticeship courses. We think that is adequate, but there is no reason why it should not be tailored to meet requirements as they arise.
  He also asked about provision for the training of young people in further education establishments. Here again, I was not quite certain what he was referring to, whether it was to full-time training in educational establishments—
  Mr. Rankin Mr. Rankin indicated assent.
  Mr. Macpherson: I have mentioned pre-apprenticeship courses which are on a full-time basis.
  Mr. Rankin: I did not say courses, I said centres.
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock on Thursday evening, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at seven minutes past Twelve o'clock.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Drainage Rates, Scunthorpe
  Drainage Rates, Scunthorpe
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Citrus Fruit
  Citrus Fruit
  Forester Training Schools, Wales (Applications)
  Forester Training Schools, Wales (Applications)
  Pressed Steel Company (North East Site)
  Pressed Steel Company (North East Site)
  Bacon
  Bacon
  China
  China
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Door-to-Door Salesmen
  Door-to-Door Salesmen
  Detention Centres
  Detention Centres
  Alfred Frederick Jackson
  Alfred Frederick Jackson
  West Riding Fire Brigade (Establishment)
  West Riding Fire Brigade (Establishment)
  Anglo-Egyptian Resettlement Board
  Anglo-Egyptian Resettlement Board
  Lipstick
  Lipstick
UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA
  Miss Stanton
  Miss Stanton
EDUCATION
  Swimming
  Swimming
  Foreign News Service
  Foreign News Service
  Sub-normal Children
  Sub-normal Children
  Classes (Size)
  Classes (Size)
  Kenya Preliminary School Examination
  Kenya Preliminary School Examination
  Grant-aided Students (Degree Courses)
  Grant-aided Students (Degree Courses)
ATOMIC ENERGY
  Peaceful Uses
  Peaceful Uses
  UNITED NATIONS (CONFERENCE ON LAW OF THE SEA)
  UNITED NATIONS (CONFERENCE ON LAW OF THE SEA)
COLONIAL TERRITORIES
  Prisoners (Transfer to United Kingdom)
  Prisoners (Transfer to United Kingdom)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Buildings of Historic Interest
  Buildings of Historic Interest
  Footpaths and Bridleways
  Footpaths and Bridleways
  Office Building, Brentford and Chiswick
  Office Building, Brentford and Chiswick
EMPLOYMENT
  School Leavers
  School Leavers
  COUNCIL OF EUROPE AND WESTERN EUROPEAN UNION (DELEGATES)
  COUNCIL OF EUROPE AND WESTERN EUROPEAN UNION (DELEGATES)
TRANSPORT
  Bulk Liquid Vehicles
  Bulk Liquid Vehicles

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Lichfield

CONSULTANTS' MERIT AWARDS
2.20 p.m.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government the percentage of (a) general consulting physicians and general consulting surgeons and (b) consulting psychiatrists employed by the National Health Service aged 61–65 who are in receipt of any kind of merit award.]
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I regret that on this occasion I cannot even afford the noble Lord the luxury of questioning the official figures, because there are no official figures. The results of the last review in England and Wales were notified to Boards in February. The processing of the data arising from this review is not yet at a stage where details such as those required by the noble Lord can be extracted.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, is the noble Lord capable of giving the figures previous to this review—the figures which the Royal Commission used in their tables?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I suggest I could seek them from the Royal Commission's Report, which the noble Lord and I, so far as I know, will be debating very soon after the Recess. But is there any particular point in my doing that at the moment? It is not in the noble Lord's Question.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, in view of the importance of this Question and the impending debate, and so that we shall all start equal on April 27, may
798
I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that my noble friend always takes the wise precaution of working out the answers in advance, so as to be able to check the Government's information. Would it be helpful if I used my influence with my noble friend for him to give the Government the answer now?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I very much appreciate that the noble Lords, Lord Taylor and Lord Stonham, ask the Government Questions only in order to give their own answers; but in point of fact on this occasion there is no Government Answer, for the reasons I have given.
LORD TAYLOR: Is the noble Lord aware that it is possible to work out the answer by extrapolating from Tables 25 and 29 in the Royal Commission Report? One can get the answers to these questions, and I believe they are 80 per cent. and 22 per cent.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, my understanding is that the noble Lord has asked for figures which are more up to date than the figures in the Royal Commission's Report. Am I wrong in that?
LORD TAYLOR: I did not put down a date, my Lords.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, perhaps in fact I have misunderstood the noble Lord's Question, but I thought he wanted the latest figures and did not particularly want to be given figures by me to-day which he could have read in the Royal Commission's Report.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that one cannot read these figures, but one can work them out?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, the explanation which has been given to me for my not being able to give the noble Lord the figures he requires is that they have to be passed through a system of punch cards, and the punching of the cards has not yet been completed.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, instead of this mechanisation, had it not better be sent back to the old system, in order to save time?

THE BISHOP OF JOHANNESBURG
2.25 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, with permission, I should like to ask the Question of which I have given Private Notice to the noble Earl the Leader of the House: Whether he is able to make any further statement with regard to the position of the Bishop of Johannesburg?
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, I will give the noble Viscount an Answer without any figures. As I said in reply to the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, on Tuesday, I was making further inquiries of the High Commissioner in South Africa about the Anglican Bishop of Johannesburg. I have since had a further report from the High Commissioner. He has received a request from the Bishop to find out from the Union Government what his position will be under the emergency regulations if he returns to the Union from Swaziland. The High Commissioner is thus in touch with the Bishop and has approached the Union Government for information which he believes may assist the Bishop in determining his future course of action. I hope that I may not be pressed to say more at the moment, as such approaches have a better chance of being successful if they are conducted confidentially.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Earl for his Answer. The only thing that occurs to me is that the statement that the High Commissioner has approached the Union Government for information which he believes may assist the Bishop in determining his future course of action may be taken, in the circumstances, it seems to me, in one of two ways. It might
800
apply to the Bishop's intentions, which he made quite public, or it might be simply so far as arranging facilities for the Bishop's safe passage out of South Africa on his long period of leave in this country. I hope that the High Commissioner's inquiries will safeguard the rights of the Bishop in both respects.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, Bishops are just like anybody else.
A NOBLE LORD: Not quite.
THE EARL OF HOME: They have no less and no greater rights than anybody else. But I do not quite know what the intentions of the Bishop are. That is what the High Commissioner is discovering, and the advice he gives will depend on what the Bishop wishes. I think I might leave it like that until later next week.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Paper.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 34 be considered in order to its being suspended until the House adjourns for the Recess at Easter.—(The Earl of Home.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

FILMS BILL [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate the Cinematograph Films Acts, 1938 to 1960. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

CHARITIES BILL [H.L.]
2.30 p.m.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Silkin has asked me to apologise for his inability to be here to-day, owing to an indisposition. His Amendments will therefore not be moved, and he would be very grateful if he could deal with them on Third Reading.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I am sure the House would like me first of all to express sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, and your Lordships' hopes that he will very soon be completely recovered. I am sure that we can make arrangements for his Amendments to be dealt with on Third Reading. I am also sure that, although it is contrary to the general wish of the House that we should deal with Amendments on Third Reading, in the case of Lord Silkin, who has given such great attention to this Bill, the whole House would like his Amendments to be dealt with.
Clause 3 [The official custodian for charities]:
LORD SALTOUN LORD SALTOUN moved, after subsection (3) to insert:
"() If in any case the charity trustees so require the Commissioners shall make such arrangements as may be appropriate for vesting in the official custodian for charities the property of the charity and for the administration of the charity by such person as they may appoint."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Bill introduces what seems to me to be an entirely new set-up in matters of charity. It not only calls into force laws which have been fairly generally neglected, but it imposes new laws in matters of charity, and it gives the Charity Commissioners new duties and an enhanced position. I hope that it will also give them sufficient means to carry out the duties imposed upon them; because if it does not, there will be very great delays. So far as concerns the various large collecting charities that have asked me to make representations, there is little more that I need say. This Amendment, however, is quite independent of anything I have been asked to do. It is a matter which the noble and learned Viscount
802
in charge of the Bill promised he would consider before this stage. Amendment No. 2, coupled with Amendments Nos. 10, 11 and 12, enables charity trustees to resign if they find that their position is intolerable, or if they cease to be able to carry out their duties.
I do not know what is the Government's view about charity generally in this country. When I first read this Bill, long before the Second Reading, it occurred to me that the Government had rather come to the conclusion that the days of small private charities were over; or, possibly, that the Inland Revenue had stimulated them to do something to check the amount of money that was being devoted to charity and was escaping from estate duty. A little reflection soon showed me that that was not the case. I have been making such inquiries as are possible to a private individual, and I find that there is less and less money being devoted to charity by way of gift and bequest—certainly by way of bequest—than in the past. People have not the money to leave. Any bequests that are made to charity tend to be smaller than they were in the past, even if they are more numerous. But it stands to reason that, as people get poorer and poorer, and more and more equal in income and property, they will be less and less able to leave money to charity by means of bequest. I do not think that this Bill that we have before us this afternoon is going to help the establishment of new charities. In the past, nearly all new charities have been quite small affairs in the beginning: a private person has seen a need; he has devoted some money to relieving that need, and so has established the charity. That is how the great organisation for which I work has grown up. It started as small individual and isolated efforts all round the coast; then in 1824 it was all gathered together in one institution. However, there is, I believe, still one private lifeboat in service in England—which shows you how the old organisation of these things persists.
It appears to me that one effect of this Bill may well be that the trustees of quite small existing charities will find the new duties laid upon them very irksome. The big organisations, of course, and the great collecting charities, can stand on their own feet, and I think they can defend themselves. I tried on

803
Second Reading to give a picture of the frustration that charity trustees feel when they are too much bullied by a supervising authority, and on Committee stage the noble Lord, Lord Granville-West, drew a very moving picture with which I entirely agreed—it tallied entirely with my own experience. It therefore seems to me that the Government ought to be prepared to make arrangements to allow charity trustees who feel their position to be too uncomfortable to go on to resign their duties and their funds to the Charity Commissioners—to, I suggest, the official custodian, or to anybody whom the Charity Commissioners may appoint as trustee—and so be relieved of their position if they find it intolerable.
After all, these people do their work gratuitously. I know, because I have lived with many of them. I know how earnestly they use their spare time to forethink measures for the improvement of their work; how they use their professional skill; and how they devote an enormous amount of time, thought and energy to their task. I think the country owes them a debt, not a bearing-rein. If they find their position intolerable, I think they ought to be allowed to be relieved of it. After all, the Charity Commissioners have the task of supervising their work. If they get the money and the property, I imagine that that is more or less what is wanted: and these people may well be allowed to retire and leave the Government to undertake the task which they have not carried out to their satisfaction. Once more, my Lords, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 33, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Saltoun.)
2.38 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, if I may deal first with the general approach of my noble friend Lord Saltoun. I am very glad that on second thoughts he has abandoned the standpoint that this Bill meant that the days of private charity are over. The whole purpose of the Bill is to ensure that voluntary effort is encouraged and that the vast existing body of voluntary effort is used to the best advantage; and, as I have indicated several times, there is a great deal of work to be done in this field. As to the second point, about the
804
Inland Revenue, I am glad that he has also abandoned that conception; because, of course, the result of this Bill will be that the Charity Commissioners, being in touch with the Inland Revenue, will in many cases ensure that there is no suggestion of the funds of organisations being taxed, because the Charity Commissioners will have made it clear that they are charities. I am afraid one has to concede his next point: that with the general redistribution of wealth that we have seen in our lifetime there will be fewer people in a financial position to leave money to charity; and I do not intend to go into the wider questions which that involves.
But, broadly, I think that involuntarily my noble friend did not do justice to the trustees of charities as they exist to-day. They are, as he said in another connection, a most hard-working and devoted band of people, and I am sure that they do not undertake their heavy responsibilities in the spirit of running a hobby which they can pick up or drop as it suits them. They adopt the responsibility of dealing with funds provided by other persons for purposes beneficial to the community. I am sure that generally they would be glad to be bound by their trusts and the general law relating to trustees.
My noble friend will know that, in general, the charity trustee who wishes to resign can do so only in accordance with the trust instrument or the ordinary law. The Trustee Act, 1925, applies to charity trustees as much as to private trustees. Then there is the ultimate position under Section 39, that if his resignation would reduce the number of trustees below two, of which neither is a trust corporation, he cannot resign. On the other hand, as my noble friend will see if he looks at Clause 17 (7), the Commissioners are given a new power under the Bill to discharge a charity trustee at his own request; and under Clause 19 there is a power to remove him and appoint another in the circumstances contemplated by that clause. The trustees can, of course, go to the court and ask to be relieved of their trust, and that is a matter for the discretion of the court.
What puzzles me about my noble friend's present Amendment is this. I do not think I am doing him an injustice if

805
I say that throughout our discussions he has rather resented giving the additional powers to the Commissioners, and I have intimated in reply that by Clause 1 (4) the Bill excludes the Commissioners from acting in the administration of a charity and throughout rests on the full responsibility of trustees for their trust. I am surprised that in this Amendment my noble friend Lord Saltoun contemplates that any charity trustees who get tired should drop the trust in the lap of the Commissioners, leaving it to them to hold the property and administer it through nominees. That is not the approach of Her Majesty's Government. The Government, both in the White Paper and in the Bill, have done their utmost to maintain the status of charity trustees. It would be contrary to that to accept my noble friend's Amendment. I hope that he will not press it, and if he does, that it will not be accepted.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, before my noble and learned friend sits down, could he tell us what the present law is? Suppose the trustees decide among themselves that they are not prepared to carry on with a trust, and abandon it (or can they not abandon it?), what is the position?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If they abandon the trust and do not carry it out, then anyone can apply to the Commissioners, who can act in accordance with the provisions of this Bill. The Bill deals with cases where trusts are being badly administered, and there are a number of powers which are included in the Bill. Apart from that, I tried to explain the position of the individual trustee, and I put it quite broadly for the purposes of this short debate. One starts from the trust instrument, which may provide for this. Then, under Clause 17 (7) of the Bill, the Commissioners can act in a case where they have had to hold an inquiry, and the results are produced as stated in Clause 19. They can then, under Clause 19, remove and replace. But, apart from that, the trustee can apply to the court. I hope that my noble friend Lord Hawke will not tie me to haying given an exact account, but I have given him the general position and hope that it will satisfy him.
LORD HAWKE: I think that Clause 17 (7) is my answer.
EARL WINTERTON: My Lords, until recently I was a trustee of a charity which was important in the sense of the scope of its work and income. I should like to make two comments of a quite friendly character on the interesting speech we have just had from the Lord Chancellor. I am a little doubtful whether he and my noble friend who moved the Amendment are right in thinking that the sources of charity, despite the heavy taxation of the moment, are drying up; because if one reads the wills in the newspapers one sees still a very large amount of money left to charity. I do not want to get outside the scope of the Amendment, but it is to me rather regrettable that so much of that money goes to animal welfare societies instead of to societies for human welfare; but that is as it may be.
With regard to the other point, I agree, as one who has had 30 years' experience of trusteeship of a large charity, that Lord Saltoun's fears are really unjustified. I regard this Bill as a tidying-up Bill which will really strengthen the position of charitable trusts and do away with some abuses. I do not think a properly run charity has anything to fear from it. I am sure that other noble Lords in this House who have been trustees, as I have, or who are trustees, will agree with me that there was need for this tidying up Bill, and personally I am grateful to the Government for having brought it in.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to rise in response to the point made by my noble friend Lord Winterton, because he is so often right and I am wrong. I have done the people of this country an unintentional injustice. I was allowing my mind to argue a priori, I am afraid, but in fact I have been informed, as my noble friend was speaking, that the Charity Commissioners in a report a year or two ago said that, so far as can be seen, charity revenue continues buoyant. I am glad to say that, and I say it because I am sorry I allowed myself to drift into a false impression. If one takes two specific examples, the Gulbenkian Trust and the Isaac Wolfson Trust, your Lordships may remember that I expressed the thanks of Her Majesty's Government to Mr. Isaac Wolfson and the trustees for their help in matters of

807
criminology a short time ago; and since then I have had the honour to lay the foundation stone of the school of nursing at the Westminster Hospital, in my official capacity as vice-patron of the hospital, representing your Lordships, which was also a creation from a gift of £250,000 from the Wolfson Trust. Therefore I am sorry that I allowed myself to argue a priori, and I at once confirm what my noble friend Lord Winterton has said.
2.50 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, with regard to what the noble Earl, Lord Winterton, said, I quite agree that I ought perhaps to have said in my speech moving the Amendment that I rather imagined that the Government were dependent for future resources of charity on these great foundations like the Gulbenkian Trust, and not on what I call private charity. It is true that private charity has kept up in a most extraordinary way, but I have made certain inquiries to try to arrive at some idea of what the future holds. My information tends to make me think that charity by bequest is beginning to dry up, but that there are more people who, during their lifetime, make considerable benefactions to charity than there were perhaps ten years ago.
To go back to what the noble and learned Viscount has said, I think that if he reads the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow, he will see that in the main I drew exactly the same picture of the work of charitable trustees as he did. I think their work is wonderful and patient, and of extraordinary value to the country. Where we differ is that I think one tendency of this Bill will be to diminish the money left for charitable purposes by testators or by private founders in a small way. I have some reason for what I think. Anybody who looks at the terms of bequests in wills will see the formula. Seven years ago, when we had a debate, I produced a page and a half of foolscap containing different formulae which people put in their wills, saying, "This bequest shall become invalid"—or words to that effect— "if at any time the Government take a hand in this particular charity."
There is another side to that, and that is that people are extraordinarily nervous and frightened that any money they give
808
to charity may be diverted from that purpose to another purpose. Clause 13, however useful it may be, and however bad the condition of charitable trusts in England may be, I think will be a deterrent. That is a difference of opinion
between me and the Government. That difference of opinion existing, I have put down an Amendment which allows charitable trustees to resign and to hand over their responsibilities to the Charity Commissioners if they feel that they are being driven too far.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, may I interrupt my noble friend? My noble and learned friend on the Woolsack has satisfied me that my noble friend's point is already covered under Clause 17 (7). Is he not satisfied?
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I do not think we are covered, because the Charity Commissioners can turn round and say, "If you desire to retire, then the trust will become vacant. You have got to go on". I want to put my position perfectly clearly. I tried on Second Reading, and at times during the Committee stage, to give a fair picture of the frustration that charity trustees do and can feel if they are too much mothered by a Department. In such a case the proper thing to do—especially when powers are granted by this Bill—is to allow them a chance of retiring. If one does not do that, it is rather a cruel thing. That was my reason for moving the Amendment. I do not wish to press my Amendment, but I ask the Government carefully to consider what I have said, because I am perfectly certain that there is a great substratum of truth in it. I beg your Lordships' leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4 [Register of charities]:
2.55 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN LORD SALTOUN moved, in subsection (4) (c), to leave out "property" and insert "such endowment". The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is quite a simple Amendment, and it may yield to an explanation from the noble and learned Viscount in charge of the Bill. Under Clause 4 (4) (c) the
charities which are not required to be registered are:
"any charity not having any permanent endowment, nor any income from property amounting to more than fifteen pounds a year, nor the use and occupation of any land …"

809
I am seeking to substitute the words "such endowment" for "property". The point is this. I am told that the Government take the view that if somebody leaves or gives a sum of money—let us take my own Institution—to build a lifeboat, and you build that lifeboat, as soon as you get that sum of money it is considered to be an endowment and has to be registered with the Charity Commissioners. You have to keep them informed of the expenditure of the money on the lifeboat. That lifeboat, which is the expendable tool of our trade, has to be renewed when it becomes old, and yet it is still considered a permanent endowment. I am coupling this Amendment with Amendments Nos. 21 and 22 to Clause 44 which go together, and say that an endowment is a permanent endowment only if the capital has to be kept intact and the income alone is applied for the purpose of this charity.
It is very important that we should know the precise view taken by the Government and the legal meaning of these things, because while one can quite understand the Government's desire for registration of capital sums which must be preserved, when only the income may be used for charity, it is a very different thing for a charity to have to register every sum of money which is given to it in order that it may carry out the duties the public have entrusted to it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 43, leave out ("property") and insert ("such endowment").—(Lord Saltoun.)
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): My Lords, my noble friend was good enough to say that he thought possibly his Amendment might yield to an explanation which I shall do my best to give him, although if his decision depends on a more detailed explanation of the legal point he has just raised it might perhaps be better if my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack were to add something. Meanwhile, I hope that I may be able to show my noble friend that one effect of his Amendment would be to exclude from registration all charities not having a permanent endowment of over £15 a year. That would destroy one main purpose of the register, which is to record and secure the preservation of a great many small charities
810
which are only too likely to get lost. If your Lordships look at the printed Reports of the Royal Commissioners of 130 years ago, you will see that there were thousands and thousands of small local permanent endowments, of which a considerable proportion have now disappeared. We think that there are still a great number of under £15 a year, often consisting of small rent charges, and it is very necessary and desirable that they should be recorded.
The other effect of accepting my noble friend's Amendment would be that no charity without a permanent endowment would be registerable at all unless it occupied land; and that would really wreck the register altogether. There are a great many charities with accumulated funds which they are not required to hold as capital. Very few charities nowadays appeal for funds on the footing that only the income is to be used. Many of the most important and active would not be required to register, and the information which is intended to be available through the register to potential beneficiaries and social workers would then be hopelessly incomplete; and, of course, the certainty of charitable status which is conferred by the register would also be withdrawn from large areas of the charitable field. As my noble friend Lord Winterton said just now, this Bill is intended to help and strengthen the charities, and this applies to registration as well as to other parts of the Bill. We want to help everybody interested in social and charitable work to get more easily the information needed; that is the main purpose of the register. For those reasons I hope that my noble and learned friend will not press his Amendment. I was rather under the impression that his two later Amendments, Nos. 21 and 22, were consequential not to this Amendment but to another one. If he is not satisfied with the legal definition, perhaps my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor will be able to help in that field.
LORD SALTOUN: May I interpose with a question? Would the noble Earl or the noble and learned Viscount tell me what is the difference between a man who gives you £40,000 to build a lifeboat and a man who gives you 2s. 6d. in the street for the same purpose—why one should be registered and the other not?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If a man gives you £4,000 allowing for a good investment you have an income of £200 a year; or you could have an income of £200 a year if you did not spend it at once. That is not a permanent endowment. It may be that the charity accumulates a large sum of money which they can spend if they like, but they do not choose to spend it; they put it on one side for activities at a later date. If you are going to have registration, if you are going to give everyone who is interested in that field of work the chance of seeing what the charities are doing, and if you are going to give potential beneficiaries the chance of seeing what the charities are doing, to exclude the charities that have large sums of money merely because they can spend that money whenever they like, if in fact it brings them in an income, seems to me to be unreasonable.
We have gone into this matter very carefully. I hope that my noble friend will accept from me that the points he has raised have been the subject of long and arduous discussion between my noble friend Lord Dundee and those who have been doing the work on this Bill. We have been in touch with charities, and perhaps I may quote an example on which we have had an actual letter, because it shows the sort of point and shows the sense of it. The letter that came to us through the National Council of Social Service, from the Royal United Kingdom Beneficent Association for the Support of Gentlefolk in Need, says:
"One of the most pressing problems facing our Association, and indeed other charities concerned with the elderly, is to find suitable homes accommodation for all those amongst our annuitants who need it—particularly for the infirm. The problem exists, of course, because of the general shortage of such homes, but we are sure that the effect of this shortage can be considerably mitigated if we can have complete up-to-date information of what homes accommodation does in fact exist throughout the country. The register of charities will, in our opinion, be of enhanced value in ensuring that the fullest use may be made of charitable resources, if it contains in a separate section lists of all charitably run homes"—
and then the Association suggest categories. The noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, might say that that implies the use of land. But the same thing would apply in the case of pension charities. That is what we want to do. Therefore it is important in many cases—and, after all,
812
we are not legislating for one charity but for the run of charities—that we should know what funds are available, and those funds may be available for the moment and providing an income, although they can be used out and out at once.
The other point on which my noble friend Lord Dundee suggested I might be able to help, was on Lord Saltoun's Amendments, Nos. 21 and 22. There, at page 41, line 3, my noble friend proposes to omit the words, "on its being so expended" and to substitute, "that only the income thereof shall be used for charitable purposes". I should like my noble friend to understand why the draftsmen have drafted in this way. If my noble friend will look back to the first part of the subsection, he will see that it says:
"Subject to subsection (9) of section twenty-one of this Act, a charity shall be deemed for the purposes of this Act to have a permanent endowment unless all property held for the purposes of the charity may be expended for those purposes without distinction between capital and income …"
That lays down the main provision of the subsection. Then it goes on:
"and in this Act 'permanent endowment' means, in relation to any charity, property held subject to a restriction on its being so expended."
The reason we have used the words "on its being so expended" is that we shall have the same criteria in the second part of the subsection as the first, and it is better to do that than to employ another form of words. The noble Lord's point is perfectly good. If my memory is right (I admit to your Lordships that I did not check it), he has taken the ipsissima verba of the White Paper. He will appreciate the point: one wants the two things to be read together, and for that purpose our form is better; it will be more helpful for those who have to interpret the Act. That is really the drafting point, having got over the first point with which my noble friend dealt.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I know that as mover, I am entitled to speak a second time, but we are really dealing with more than one connected Amendment, and therefore I hope your Lordships will give me a little licence, because there are one or two things I should like to say on which the noble and

813
learned Viscount might be able to enlighten me, and it will save your Lordships' time in the end. There are two points here. The noble and learned Viscount said that if somebody left £40,000 for a lifeboat (I am taking a lifeboat because I am familiar with it; there are hundreds of other charities in similar positions) that was a sum that could be invested. But quite apart from being given a half-crown in the street, we are left all sorts of sums, £1,000, £2,000, £15,000, £100,000. The interesting point is: where is the dividing line between the half-crown in the street and the £40,000? When does it become a permanent investment—an investment that has to be separately registered? That is my first point. The second point concerns Clause 44. There is a fear that under subsection (3), as it is expressed in the Bill, it may be held that a lifeboat provided by such a sum was itself a permanent investment, and had to be kept permanently on the station as if it were a permanent investment. Those are the two questions which occurred to me in regard to my interest, but similar questions will occur with regard to every other charity. Can the noble and learned Viscount enlighten me on those points?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I can enlighten my noble friend only with the leave of the House. I know that your Lordships are not over-particular about the Rules, though I think that broadly, we have always tried to maintain a distinction between the Report stage and the Committee stage and, generally speaking, not to allow on the Report stage two or more speeches on the same Amendment. But if the House will allow me, I should like to deal with these points, because the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, has held out two baits: one, the silent one, that he has taken a great deal of interest in this Bill, and therefore I am anxious that he should be satisfied; and, secondly, that he has said that it will save time later. Therefore, on both those grounds, perhaps your Lordships will allow me this once the indulgence of speaking again; but I promise that I shall not make it a general practice.
The point that I do not think I made clear to my noble friend is this. We are now dealing with the necessity to register. In my view, on that point it is
814
immaterial whether or not it is a permanent endowment. What we want to know—when I say "we" I mean everybody interested in the charity, the people that I mentioned in my speech—is whether there is a sum of money that will be available for this purpose. We take a sum of money that brings in an income of £15 a year, because after that amount the Inland Revenue are interested from the point of view of lax. As I said in another connection a short time ago, we want to prevent the charity from being worried at all by the Revenue. Therefore, if it is registered the Commissioners will have looked at the charity. To take my development of my noble friend's case, suppose that a charity have a balance at the time of £4,000, which brings them an income of £200 a year. We want the charity to be registered so that it may be known what funds are available for a certain purpose in that area; and secondly so that the Commissioners can say to the Inland Revenue, "This is quite clearly a charitable purpose. Do not bother any more about the fact that at this moment they have an income of a couple of hundred pounds on their £4,000 balance." That is the reason why we want it registered.
The second point is this. I always hesitate to give, if I may use the phrase, "off the cuff" legal opinions; but so far as I can see, having studied it, I do not think that my noble friend Lord Saltoun need sustain his fear. What the subsection does (and this is really what his friends may have in mind) is to put on those who want to say that they have not a permanent endowment, the onus of showing that fact. That is why subsection (3) of Clause 44 is drafted in that way. But I do not for a moment think that that means that in an appropriate case they will have any difficulty in discharging the onus. I do not think it goes any further than that. With that explanation, I hope that my noble friend will not press the Amendment.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for what he has said on both these points. I am greatly comforted by his explanation. I am also grateful to him for the strong support he has given to an opinion which I have repeated in your Lordships' House again and again; that it would be much better for us, when

815
we have difficult Bills, to recommit them. With those two remarks, I beg leave to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.16 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, this is a point which the noble and learned Viscount promised to consider in the interval between the Committee stage and this stage. It particularly affects boys' clubs, Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, the Boys' Brigade and similar organisations. It is a point that we have greatly at heart, and I should be grateful if the noble and learned Viscount could give me some information on it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 1, leave out ("use and") and insert ("rateable").—(Lord Saltoun.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, my noble friend has indicated that this is a probing Amendment. I am sure that he will not press it, because the Amendment would defeat itself. Where, by the operation of existing law, or future amendments of the law, land occupied by a charity was wholly exempted from rates, occupation would cease to be rateable and the requirement to register would not arise. There would be other difficulties, as I am sure my noble friend appreciates, arising from the occupation of de-rated land.
But he has told me that what he really has in mind is the fear that the clause will require the registration of Scout camp sites occupied for the week-end by licence from a farmer. I want to repeat (I hope your Lordships will take this to be generally applicable) the assurances I have given, that there will be a flexible administration of the register machinery to produce sensible and useful results. "Use and occupation" must involve the legal right to exclusive possession and actual occupation under that right. Everyone who drives up to a farm uses the drive and occupies part of it with his car in a sense, but he cannot possibly be said to be in "use and occupation" of the land within the meaning of this clause, or indeed, so far as I know, of any Statute whatever.
If there proves in practice to be any difficulty or doubt—I cannot see it—about temporary camping sites, the Government
816
will certainly be ready to consider putting the matter beyond doubt by means of excepting regulations. But on the face of it, there is no more reason to treat a temporary Scout camp site as land occupied by a charity than the farmhouse itself in which campers lodge indoors. So, both in fact and in our method of treatment, I can give the noble Lord assurances that this matter will be well and truly and reasonably dealt with.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I was very interested in the noble and learned Viscount's reply, because that was a point worrying myself and various others who thought that that could be held to be a defect in the Bill; but my noble and learned friend has promised to do various things, by regulation, to make sense of the Bill. I should have thought it would be much more sensible to have some safeguard in the Bill, and I throw out such words as "occupation of any land which would be rateable in the hands of a rate-paying body" or something of that kind—because in the eyes of many people a phrase like "The use and occupation of any land" is a most alarming one.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am not going to speak again, but I would ask my noble friend Lord Hawke (although this sounds very egotistical) to look at a judgment of mine, given in a Scottish rating case a month ago. I believe he will then find his troubles go.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I, too, am particularly grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for his explanation, and I am glad to learn, if my noble friend Lord Hawke is right, that the law we are passing to-day will not be put into force. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 10 [Local authority's index of local charities]:
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment, which is inserted in the Bill at the request of the City Corporation, is to enable them to maintain an index of local charities—that is to say, those which are confined to the City—to undertake reviews and to incur rate-borne expenditure for this purpose. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 10, at end insert:
"but the Common Council of the City of London shall have the like powers under this section as the council of a metropolitan borough".—(The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 12 [Co-operation between charities, and between charities and local authorities]:
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, perhaps your Lordships will agree to consider Amendments Nos. 7 and 8 together. Their effect is to add parish councils, the City of London and the Isles of Scilly to those local authorities which the clause at present empowers to make arrangements with charity trustees for co-ordinating activities in the interests of beneficiaries. The clause should enable the fullest possible arrangements to be made for putting charitable resources to their best use. We have included parish councils within this Amendment. In Committee my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross moved an Amendment to that effects which I undertook to consider favourably. I believe it is an advantage for those to be included, and that meets the Amendment—I believe it was No. 33—which the noble Viscount proposed in Committee. The City of London has been included here at its own request.
Amendments moved—
Page 11, line 36, leave out from beginning to ("and") in line 37, and insert ("Any local council")
Page 11, line 47, at end insert—
("In this subsection 'local council' means the council of a county, of a county borough, of a metropolitan borough, of a county district, of a borough included in a rural district or of a rural parish, and includes also the Common Council of the City of London and the Council of the Isles of Scilly.").—(The Earl of Dundee.)
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for these Amendments, designed, I believe, to meet an Amendment put down on the Committee stage. I feel sure they are likely to meet the point of those who advised me in the matter, although as we have been rather short of time I have not really been able to consult them yet. With that reservation I thank my noble friend.
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 22 [Power to authorise dealings with charity property, etc.]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, again perhaps I might couple this Amendment with Amendment No. 14. They give effect to what was agreed during the Committee stage, subject to consideration of the drafting of an Amendment of my noble friend Lord Hawke—No. 57AA. The present drafting is understood to be acceptable to the Church of England authorities on whose behalf my noble friend was speaking. The Amendments recognise that the Charity Commissioners have no power to authorise a transaction in respect of a consecrated church, or land associated with it, which is for the time being appropriated to use for secular charitable purposes under a scheme having effect under the Union of Benefices Measures, 1923 to 1952, or the Reorganisation Areas Measures, 1944 and 1954, and which, on determination of such use, would continue to be subject to those Measures. That is intended to meet the point raised by my noble friend Lord Hawke I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 26, line 29, after ("charity") insert ("or confer any authority in relation to a disused church as defined in that sub-section,")
Page 26, line 34, at end insert (";and in that subsection 'disused church' means a building which has been consecrated and of which the use or disposal is regulated, and can be further regulated, by a scheme having effect under the Union of Benefices Measures, 1923 to 1952. or the Reorganisation Areas Measures, 1944 and 1954, and extends to any land which under such a scheme is to be used or disposed of with a disused church, and for this purpose 'building' includes part of a building.").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I thank my noble and learned friend very much for these Amendments which I understand fully meet the point of the Church of England. As he knows, these Amendments mask a very spirited struggle between the lawyers advising the Home Office and those advising the Church of England—an almost metaphysical struggle on certain points. I am glad to see that the lawyers advising the Church of England have, in the end, been admitted to be right.
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 28:
Restrictions on dealing with charity property
28.—(1) Subject to the exceptions provided for by this section, no property forming pan of the permanent endowment of a charity shall without an order of the court or of the Commissioners, be mortgaged or charged by way of security for the repayment of money borrowed, nor, in the case of land in England or Wales, be sold, leased or otherwise disposed of.
(2) Subsection (1) above shall apply to any land which is held by or in trust for a charity and is or has at any time been occupied for the purposes of the charity, as it applies to land forming part of the permanent endowment of a charity; but a transaction for which the sanction of an order under subsection (1) above is required by virtue only of this subsection shall, notwithstanding that it is entered into without such an order, be valid in favour of a person who (then or afterwards) in good faith acquires an interest in or charge on the land for money or money's worth.
3.28 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN LORD SALTOUN moved, in subsection (2), after the first "shall" to insert "not". The noble Lord said: My Lords, although this Amendment and Amendment No. 16 go together, I am going to deal with them separately, because I have to remember that the Bill is not to be re-committed; and one is a little limited in finding out things. I believe, however, that the effect of these two Amendments together pretty well amounts to that of the Amendment I moved in Committee to omit subsection (2). My reason for asking your Lordships to do that is because I understand that new legislation is involved, and if it is carried out that will really make it impossible for many charities to carry on at all. A charity like St. Dunstan's, which has I do not know how many hundreds of houses which are inhabited by blind people, has to buy and sell those houses with complete freedom; that is the only way in which the charity can be managed.
We, in the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, have to provide houses for mechanics, sometimes buying a house, sometimes selling; and it would be quite impossible for us to carry on if we had to apply to the Charity Commissioners every time we wanted to buy or sell a small house. There is a good deal more that could be said upon this subject but I believe that that is the real point. If this subsection is to be insisted upon I should very much like to be told the procedure that will have to be adopted
820
if the Royal National Lifeboat Institution wish to buy or sell a house used by a lifeboat mechanic, or St. Dunstan's wish to buy or sell one of the houses in which their blind people are living. It would be very interesting to see the processes that have to be gone into. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 11, after ("shall") insert ("not").—(Lord Saltoun.)
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, the reason of my noble friend's Amendment has my fullest possible support, because the particular difficulty which he points out is universally felt among people who have to deal with charity property, such as diocesan finance boards and the like. My only trouble is that I do not really know whether this is the right way of doing it. I was proposing to suggest that there would have to be a wide list of exceptions and the charities such as he mentioned might hope to be included in that list in due course, as I would expect the other people I have mentioned to be. I can assure your Lordships—and I have taken fresh advice the whole time on this matter—that, in spite of what my noble and learned friend said the other day, the procedure for selling property under the ægis of the Charity Commissioners is most irksome, cumbersome and slow. It leads to loss of money and of purchasers at times, and it is utterly unnecessary in the case of large and responsible bodies who are constantly in the property market. Moreover, the comment is frequently made that there is only one way to do the thing quickly, and that is to go and see the Charity Commissioners yourselves. Any sort of procedure which makes that necessary in the case of a Government Department or semi-Government Department is so bad that it is surely unnecessary.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I do not want to stop any of your Lordships from expressing your views, but there have been certain negotiations and I have certain undertakings to give in consequence of them, especially with regard to the point the noble Lord, Lord Granville-West, raised, and it might be convenient if I dealt with this case and showed that I have, I think, moved considerably from the position that I mentioned on the Committee stage. Then,

821
when noble Lords have heard what I say, they will see whether it meets the point. Otherwise, they may be pushing at an open door if they approve of what I have to say.
The effect of the Amendment of my noble friend Lord Saltoun, in conjunction with the Amendment on Clause 44, is apparently to exclude altogether from the control of the Commissioners and the Ministry all land which does not fall within the revised definition of "permanent endowment"; that is, land which is held subject to the restriction that the income only may be spent. It is tantamount to the Amendment moved in Committee to leave out subsection (2), as my noble friend Lord Saltoun has foreshadowed, and it would exclude all functional land from control. I hope that I gave sufficient reasons in Committee to show that the control of land transactions exercised by the Charity Commissioners was both necessary and beneficial in preserving charity capital. The question is how to define the transactions to which it should be applied. What all who have studied the problem are agreed on is that the present state of the law is indefensible.
The exemption which Section 62 of the Charitable Trusts Act, 1853, attempted to create for land which the trustees were free to dispose of by linking it to subscription charities has probably caused more litigation, trouble and uncertainty than any other section of the law of property. This is the general point: that this is not so much a problem of charities; it is a problem of the law of property and the passing of a good title and a title that is not going to cause trouble in the future to purchasers in good faith.
Hundreds of applications are made to the Charity Commissioners to settle whether or not the sale of a piece of land is subject to their control, or, much worse, was subject to their control when it was sold years ago. It is a bad state of the law that that sort of thing can frequently arise, and this question should be an urgent one. In hundreds of cases, after long research, the answer is that it is not subject to control, or, indeed, in the case of an old matter, that the Commissioners cannot say but are willing to authorise the sale in case consent is required. It is our view—and here I speak as a law reformer as well as the
822
Minister in charge of the Bill—that such a state of uncertainty, confusion and waste of labour cannot be allowed to continue. The White Paper seeks to cut away the difficulties inherent in the conception of what is called a "mixed" charity and sets out to make a fresh start, settling the law on readily ascertainable principles, so that conveyancers and all concerned will know whether or not consent is required.
The case of investment land was simple. If the trustees are required to preserve the capital and use the income only, the consent of the Commissioners must be obtained; if they can spend the proceeds of sale as income, no consent is required. And this represents a very considerable liberalisation of the restrictions in the present law. Your Lordships may remember that in the course of an almost intolerably long reply on the Second Reading I pointed that out to my noble friend Lord Saltoun, who had asked me about it. But this does not dispose of the case of functional land which does not produce income, but represents a very considerable part of charity's capital. Here, your Lordships may remember that I tried to make this clear on the Committee stage, but it is a difficult point for laymen to appreciate that there it is not possible to see whether or not it is required to be preserved as capital by looking at the trusts or conveyance; the circumstances and nature of the gift must be taken into account. I gave the example of a village hall, and a school is another example, because if the building is sold the charity comes to an end.
Again, I say that this clause is not a policy clause; it is about the law of property. Its purpose is not to change materially the incidence of control of sales, but rather to preserve the existing position in its main features and introduce certainty into the areas where there is doubt by applying new principles, and so get rid of the enormous amount of fruitless and unnecessary work in charity and lawyers' offices, as well as in the departments, in dealing with dubious cases.
May I just point out how the Bill deals with this problem? It sets about it first by demolishing the old definition of "endowment" and replacing it by a new and much stricter one of

823
"permanent endowment". Functional land was almost invariably part of the old "endowment", but will not necessarily be part of the new, "permanent endowment". Subsection (2) then goes on to say that functional land shall be treated as though it were part of the permanent endowment; and subsection (4) allows regulations to be made to take out of this the classes of functional land which are not now, and will not be, subject to control.
That brings us to the point we have discussed in various connections in the Bill, as to the desirability of using subsidiary legislation. It is desirable to do this by regulation, because in the regulation one can go into detail and can specify many things so as to produce certainty in a way that a general principle in a Statute will not. A prime and obvious example is Section 62 of the Act of 1853, which has been mentioned and which, as I have said, has produced so much trouble—and I do not want to fall into that trap again. On the last occasion my noble friend Lord Saltoun objected—he put it rather melodramatically, but I sympathise with his point of view—and said that he was being invited to put his head into a noose and trust the Government not to pull too hard. I am with him to this extent: I am sure he is right in asking for firm assurances about what the Government intend to put into the regulations, and it is hoped that the undertakings which are being given will satisfy him as regards the class of property transactions with which it is understood the collecting charities are chiefly concerned: and I hope that they will satisfy the noble Lord, Lord Granville-West, also.
The Government have repeatedly declared that this Bill is not intended to interfere with the work of the living churches or with their freedom to deal with their working funds, and since the Committee stage the cases which noble Lords have wished covered have been gone into very carefully and discussed with the officers of the Baptist Union and the Congregational Union. It was thought previously that they would be covered in principle by the words used. It is now realised that this was not so, and agreement has been reached on a formula which I believe meets the
824
essential points that were raised on the Committee stage. I therefore give this firm undertaking: that the Government will make regulations to except from the control of land transactions under Clause 28 the following classes of case—this is not drafting, but is a statement of policy, and I want to make it broad and clear. The first is as regards the point of my noble friend Lord Saltoun: that regulations will be made to except transactions in respect of local premises provided at its discretion for the purpose of the charity by a national charitable organisation from its general expendable funds. I think that that covers quite clearly the two points which my noble friend Lord Saltoun put to me. The organisations concerned will probably be named in a Schedule, and I can assure my noble friend that this will apply (to take the example nearest his heart) to the Royal National Lifeboat Institution: and I see no reason why it should not cover the other point which was raised to-day.
I turn now to the Amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Granville-West. There, the regulations will except the transfer of places of religious worship and manses to new premises within the terms of a local trust where there is a living church. If I may say so, I was most impressed by the description of that given by the noble Lord, Lord Granville-West. He took the example where there are local trustees, a local church, and an active local congregation. Indeed, that is one of the matters to which I gave great consideration. Therefore the regulations will except, if I may repeat my words, the transfer of places of religious worship and manses to new premises within the terms of a local trust where there is a living church.
Secondly, they will except transactions in respect of places of religious worship and manses held on the model trust deeds of various denominations, or held on trusts, whereby a denominational authority or trust corporation is empowered to provide, close and dispose of local churches. The noble Lord will remember that I was not sure how far that went, but I did not want my covering of his first point to raise any doubt that I was not standing by what I said on the second point. He understands that my undertaking goes to both. Now I hope that will meet the request made by the noble Lord in col. 590 of Hansard

825
for last Thursday, both as regards chapels controlled solely by the local congregation and those held in model trust deeds or by denominational trust corporations. The undertaking, as I have said, has been given in general terms, but I want to emphasise that to produce absolute certainty it is intended that the regulations should be drafted in consultation with the denomination concerned. It may well prove convenient to have separate regulations for each of the principal denominations and to specify the model trust deeds or trust corporations concerned—in this case, those mentioned in the first and second parts of the Schedule to the Baptist and Congregational Trusts Act, 1951.
May I now say one other word about regulations. As I am afraid I have told your Lordships before, I have probably given as much attention to this subject as to any other in the course of my political life, and I have tried very hard to confine subsidiary legislation to its proper purpose and not to use subsidiary legislation when it really ought to be something in a Bill. But everyone who has had to deal with legislation has come up against the general problem of the complex, modern, scientific State, in which the Government, of necessity—no politics can stand against it—has to work, and therefore to interfere, in a much wider field. If one is doing that, one must have a flexible instrument. That is the first point. Otherwise, one will do injustice, or else will cause uncertainty, as our old legislation did, But, secondly—and this is a practice of modern legislation which I think is entirely right—subsidiary legislation ought to be made after consultation with the people affected.
I have always said that there are two equally important aspects of legislation. The first is to carry out the philosophy of the Government, which may be a political philosophy—although in this case it is not; here it is a general philosophy of trying to improve the existing instruments for carrying on life in this country—but, equally important to that, is the adjusting of legislation to the comfort, security and happiness of the people for whom we are legislating. One difficulty is that we are dealing with different organisations who have a different history—for example, the Baptist Union and the Congregational
826
Church, who have a different history; they have grown up on different lines, have different deeds and so on. But we must make the regulations work. Therefore I ask your Lordships to believe that I am not going back on my own political beliefs as to the importance of Acts of Parliament, but I think this is a field where regulations are necessary. They will, of course, be subject to Parliamentary control and the matter can be raised.
Equally, with regard to the other argument, it is always said politely to Ministers: "Well, we can trust you, but we do not know who is coming after you". That is an entirely formal thing which is said to any Minister who happens to be in charge of a Bill, and I am not saying that it is a particular compliment to myself. In this case, however, we are not dealing with a political matter; we are dealing with a common effort—that is how I regard it—to improve the state of the law of charities, and therefore I think the likelihood of someone going back on the solemn and full undertakings I have given to-day is very small. I am sorry to have detained your Lordships for so long, but this is one of the most important points raised in the Bill. We have given it great consideration and I have tried to meet the anxieties in the noble Lord's mind.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, I think the indication which the noble and learned Viscount has given of how his mind is working in defining the sphere at which legislation proper stops and legislation by reference starts is acceptable—at least, it is to me. His undertaking that the regulations will exempt certain properties is also acceptable to me. However, I should like to ask him whether his suggestion, that in making the regulations for the churches he will consult the churches and in making regulations generally he will consult those concerned, means that in making regulations for national charities he will consult such bodies as St. Dunstan's, who have vast properties all over the country and who would be inconvenienced if this set of words meant what it says. But now that the noble and learned Viscount has shown me that it does not, I am tolerably satisfied to let the matter go on.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have been asked for the undertaking about consultation, and that it should apply not only to churches but to charities. I give that at once. I did not intend to limit it to churches. I am told that St. Dunstan's, for which my noble friend Lord Fraser of Lonsdale has worked so devotedly, will be covered by the matter, just as Lord Saltoun's charity will be.
3.55 p.m.
LORD MCCORQUODALE OF NEWTON: My Lords, I wonder whether I may make so bold as to support what my noble friend Lord Hawke said, as he and I together engage in diocesan finance work. A great deal of our time, month by month, is taken up with details of the purchase of curates' residences. The noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor used the word "manse". I was a little nervous whether by confining himself to the word "manse" as a recognised place of religion he was not exempting the curate's residence, which a parish from time to time must procure when they get a curate. I will not press the point at the moment, but perhaps I may leave it with the Lord Chancellor. I would suggest that possibly the whole work of the diocesan boards of finance could be covered by the regulations which he has mentioned in regard to the Lifeboat Society and the like. But if that is not possible, I should like him to consider whether he is not unduly restricting himself by the use of the specific word "manse".
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the position of the Church of England is covered and my noble friend need not worry about that. The reason why I mentioned it was that I was using the actual words of the Amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Granville-West, put down on the Committee stage. I think my noble friend Lord Hawke was already satisfied that the position of the Church of England was covered.
LORD GRANVILLE-WEST: My Lords, I should like to express my personal gratitude to the noble and learned Viscount for the care and consideration he has given to the points which were raised on the Committee stage. I am sure that his assurance this afternoon will be a source of pleasure,
828
not only to the noble Lords who supported the Amendment on the Committee stage but to the Free Churches generally. I am sure that this is a difficult problem, and speaking, as I believe I can, on behalf of the Free Churches, we readily accept the assurance which the Lord Chancellor has given and thank him very much for the consideration which he has given to our problem.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, first of all, there is one small matter on general procedure. It seems to me that this is an important clause of this Bill, and I feel that it would have been for the convenience of the House if we had recommitted this clause alone and discussed it, because we all want to come to a clear understanding and agreement upon it and for it to go out in the best possible form. That is by the way. I would say at once that I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor for his assurance, which I unhesitatingly accept. It does not, however, quite end the matter, and there are one or two points I want to present to him for consideration, because I think they are of some importance. The British Legion, I think, will have to be excepted for subsection (1) as well. We know what often occurs. You raise a sum of money to get a British Legion hall; then the first thing you do is to mortgage it to get working capital, and you pay off the mortgage: that brings it immediately under subsection (1).
There is another point to which the noble and learned Viscount referred, on which, if I may say so, I do not altogether agree with him. He said that if you have a village hall, and the hall is sold, the charity disappears. Does it? You have the money for it, and the probability is that if you sell it, because you still have the village you will want another hall. We have known many village halls go from a shed to a moderate hall and to a much better hall; and they go by means of the money made in the smaller hall and from the collections of those who want to help. And so the charity goes on. If every time a charitable organisation has to sell a village hall it is required to go through the processes set out in this Bill, it will be most awkward. I should like to

829
suggest to the Lord Chancellor that the dramatic instances he gave on the Committee stage may have been due to the state of the law. I am informed that nowadays, when people know that they have to go through all this process, they take any offer and submit it just to start off the machinery. Very often the dramatic increase in price may be entirely illusory, however convincing it may appear in Parliament.
There is one other point. When I came into this Chamber this afternoon I had
received correspondence which rather suggested that the noble Lord, Lord Granville-West, might be going to make a separate peace. I suppose that every one of the charities that has been mentioned or indicated by the noble and learned Viscount this afternoon may be considered to have made a separate peace. But that leaves out the very people whom, in my experience, it is sought to help, thus giving the most exasperating trouble and frustration—I refer to the small bodies of what I might call private trusts who are affected in the same way; for instance, a small private trust in a church hall. They see an opportunity of getting a bigger hall and of selling the old one. They need to act at once because they need the bigger premises, and they are held up by the
whole thing. I am very glad to make a separate peace, but I am a little frightened of doing so because I may be deserting a lot of deserving people for whom, as an ordinary Peer, I ought to be speaking. I am certain that the noble and learned Viscount will consider that point. With those words I beg your Lordships' leave to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, before the Amendment is withdrawn, I should like to raise one or two points. I appreciate that the object of the noble and learned Viscount is to simplify conveyancing transactions. But I wonder how in practice, if I am acting for a purchaser of land belonging to a charity, I discover whether or not it is part of the permanent endowment. I should like to know the answer to that question. Still more I should like to know how I find the clear and conclusive answer to the question of whether a piece of land is or has at any time been occupied for the purposes of
830
a charity. That seems to throw the matter back into a completely indefinite past. I am afraid that that will not simplify conveyancing transactions. I am anxious that they should be simplified, and I am sure the noble and learned Viscount is equally anxious to do so. The other point I wanted to make was this. I gather from what the noble and learned Viscount said that it is intended to
make regulations which will exempt certain classes of property belonging to charities. I confess that I do not understand this Bill, and it may be that there is some power somewhere to do it. But I understood that the power to grant an exemption meant an exemption to the charity in toto and not to some class of property which it owned. I should be grateful if the noble and learned Viscount could enlighten us on that point.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I do not think it would be within your Lordships' general pleasure that we should make this a Committee stage debate. I have dealt with the general points, and I think (I hope in accordance with your Lordships' wishes) that on these more particular points I should merely say that they will be considered, and that I will do my best to write to the noble Lords about the points they have raised. I feel that that would be the most convenient course, otherwise we simply make the Report stage a Committee stage, and I do not think your Lordships in general would desire that that should be done.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, the breach of our Rules on the first Amendment enables me not to move my next Amendment, because we are now at one on it.
LORD GRANVILLE-WEST: My Lords, in view of the assurance which the noble and learned Viscount has given in the earlier discussion, I do not intend to move my Amendment.
Clause 34 [Transfer and evidence of title to property vested in trustees]:
(6) The Trustee Appointment Act, 1850, the Trustee Appointment Act, 1869, the Trustees Appointment Act, 1890, and in so far as it applies any of those Acts the School Sites Act, 1852, shall cease to have effect; but the repeal

831
of those Acts by this Act shall not affect the trusts of any charity in relation to the manner of appointing trustees of land assured before the commencement of this Act for a purpose to which any of those Acts applies.
LORD GRANVILLE-WEST: My Lords, I notice that the noble and learned Viscount has an Amendment on the Paper which goes to some extent to meet the points that I had in my Amendment to leave out subsection (6). If I may refer to the Amendment which the noble and learned Viscount will be moving, I would say at once that it goes a long way to meet the difficulties that we find owing to the existence of subsection (6). There is, however, this difficulty, which I should like to put to the noble and learned Viscount. Although it cures the difficulties of those trust deeds which are in existence at the commencement of this Act, it will leave chapel trustees in a considerable difficulty with regard to trust deeds coming into existence after the commencement of the Act when they adopt the model trusts of the Baptist or Congregational denominations, because they do not contain any provisions at all with regard to the appointment of trustees. This means that until the model trusts can be amended—and I am informed that it will take about eighteen months for that to be done—there will be a difficulty. I appreciate that, in new deeds coming into existence after the commencement of this Act, it should be possible for those acting on behalf of the trust to include not only a clause stating that the property is being held upon the model trusts, but also one relating to the appointment of trustees in the future. That is a conveyancing matter which I think those advising the charities would be able to observe. Having regard to that, and in view of the Amendment which the noble and learned Viscount will himself be moving, I shall not move my Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this is the Amendment to which the noble Lord, Lord Granville-West, has just referred. It is a drafting Amendment to implement my undertaking on Committee to consider the drafting of subsection (6). The noble Lord, Lord Granville-West, says that it goes some way to meet his difficulty, and the Amendment is designed to bring out clearly that, as regards such trusts now in existence,
832
the provisions of the Acts are preserved in relation to land. The Acts do not extend to personalty. I should like to read—I was going to say at my leisure—after this debate the speech the noble Lord has made today and have another look at the point. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 33, line 40, leave out from ("but") to end of subsection and insert ("where at the commencement of this Act, the provisions of those Acts providing for the appointment of trustees apply in relation to any land, those provisions shall have effect as if contained in the conveyance or other instrument declaring the trusts on which the land is then held.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 44 [Construction of references to a "charity" or to particular classes of charity]:
4.10 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, this is another Amendment implementing an undertaking which we gave in Committee. It was on an Amendment proposed by the right reverend Prelate, the Lord Bishop of Chelmsford, and by my noble friend, Lord Hawke, and it was intended to remove a doubt which had been felt as to whether glebe land which had been let to a farmer could be said to be, "held and applicable" only for ecclesiastical purposes. It is intended, in any case, that glebe land should be excluded from this Bill, whether it is let or not, and this Amendment removes any doubt about the matter. I think the difficulty which my noble friend, Lord Hawke, had in mind in Committee arose out of the use of the phrase "applicable only for ecclesiastical purposes", and my noble friend will see that the word "applicable" has now been eliminated. There can be no doubt that land is held for the purposes for which its revenues must be applied. In any case, under the subsection as it is re-drafted this matter would have to be considered only in the comparatively rare case of the ecclesiastical corporation aggregate having some purposes which are not ecclesiastical. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 40, line 36, leave out from ("property") to end of line 37 and insert ("of the corporation, except to a corporation aggregate having some purposes which are not ecclesiastical in respect of its corporate property held for those purposes").—(The Earl of Dundee.)
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend for producing this Amendment, which is an extremely complicated-looking one, but the net effect, I understand, is to prevent there being any chance of some legally-minded incumbent selling parts of his glebe and popping the proceeds into his pocket with the aid of the Charity Commissioners, without going anywhere near his Bishop or Diocesan Board. Any doubt, I think, is removed by this Amendment, and I thank my noble friend.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SALTOUNhad given notice to move in subsection (3), to, leave out "a" [restriction] and insert "the" The noble Lord said: My Lords, I do not think it is necessary for me to press this Amendment. I think I have got my answer from the noble and learned Viscount. It looks to me as if in the case of a lifeboat we shall have to thank the donor for his donation and not for giving us the lifeboat. If that is so, it is an easy thing to do, and I beg leave not to move the Amendment.
House adjourned at a quarter past four o'clock.