Sitting of 6 April 1960

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
DEATH OF A MEMBER
Mr. Speaker: I regret to have to inform the House of the death of Christopher John Holland-Martin, esquire, Member for Ludlow, and I desire on behalf of the House to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the hon. Member.

PRIVATE BUSINESS
SAINT MARTIN'S PARISH CHURCH BIRMINGHAM BILL
SAINT PETER'S CHURCH NOTTINGHAM (BROAD MARSH BURIAL GROUND) BILL
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
TYNE TUNNEL [MONEY]
Committee to consider of authorising the payment out of moneys to be provided by Parliament of any grant or advance by way of loan made by the Minister of Transport attributable to any Act of the present Session authorising variations of the works authorised by the Tyne Tunnel Acts, 1946 and 1956, including the construction of new works (Queen's Recommendation signified). Tomorrow.— [The Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF DEFENCE

    Officers (Retired Pay)
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Minister of Defence how many retired officers of the three armed Services, including the Indian armed Services, have commuted part of their retired pay.
    The Minister of Defence (Mr. Harold Watkinson): About 15,000.

    Widows' Pensions
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Minister of Defence how much is the pension for a widow of a colonel who retired with maximum service in March of this year and died after 1st April; and how much she would have received if her husband had retired and died eighteen months ago.
    Mr. Watkinson: The widow of a colonel who retired in March of this year and subsequently dies will, if he had completed thirty-four years' service since the age of 21, receive a pension of £450 a year. If her husband had retired and died before 4th November, 1958, after the standard period of twenty-six years' service, the widow would receive £254 a year, including pensions increases.
    Mr. Johnson: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he thinks it right that the widow of an officer who died eighteen months ago should receive approximately only half as much for the rest of her life as the widow of an officer who died much more recently? Is not this difference between the two a new and most undesirable precedent in the treatment of the widows of officers?
    Mr. Watkinson: As I think my hon. Friend will recognise, the two cases are not exactly comparable. As he will see if he studies my Answer, one represents the maximum possible under the new terms and the other represents a minimum under the old ones. But I do not disagree with the general point that pensions for the widows of Service men have been increased. That was the intention of the recent Measure.

    Jet Fighter Aircraft (Engines)
    Mr. de Freitasasked the Minister of Defence what requirements have been stated by the Services for the development of a short take-off or vertical takeoff engine suitable for a jet fighter.
    Mr. Watkinson: The Services are greatly interested in the techniques of short take-off and vertical take-off. They do not, however, state requirements for engines separately.
    Mr. de Freitas: What is the position of the Services regarding the development by Rolls Royce and M.A.N. of Germany of an engine stated to be expressly for fighters of this category?
    Mr. Watkinson: The position is that Rolls Royce and M.A.N. are in a project together. Rolls Royce is developing its own v.t.o. engine and so is Bristol Siddeley Engines, Ltd. All these projects are of interest and are being closely studied. As to the vehicle in which they will be flown, the Hawker P.1127 is now in a fairly advanced stage of development and that will be our own vehicle on which some of these engines and techniques will be tested.

    N.A.T.O. (Stornoway Base)
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Minister of Defence what decision has now been reached regarding the proposed North Atlantic Treaty Organisation base at Stornoway; whether he will now reconsider his refusal to undertake that no nuclear warhead will be landed or stored there; and if he will give an assurance that West German forces will not have access to, or training and operational facilities in, the area.
    Mr. Watkinson: No decision has yet been reached.
    Mr. MacMillan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of certain statements being made by responsible Ministers of the West German Government about their intentions for the reunification of Germany by any means? Why should the British Government, who themselves have to push our own bases, because of lack of space, out into the Atlantic islands, offer them space for bases at this time? Why should the British Government persist in offering space now for the training of General Speidel's troops when we have not enough space for our own purposes, especially as we know perfectly well that Speidel and the rest of them are committed to the reunification of Germany by methods which may well drive us, as well as Germany, into a nuclear world war?
    Mr. Watkinson: That could not be a more harmful supplementary question. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] I will explain why. It is not based on the facts. The present Democratic Government of the Federal Republic of Germany want,
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    and constantly express their desire, to have their defences so integrated with those of the West that she could never, even if she so wished, take independent action. That is a course of policy which this country should strongly support.
    Lieut.-Commander Maydon: Is my hon. Friend aware that there are a great many people, both in the House and in this country, who wish to see Western Germany as an equal partner in the N.A.T.O. alliance?
    Mr. Watkinson: I agree entirely with that, and it is in the interests of peace as well as in the long-term interest of our own country.
    Mr. MacMillan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has completely warped the purpose of the Question? What we are trying to do is to divorce the two German elements, to discredit the resurgent Nazi and militaristic element in Germany, and not to discredit the legitimate German Government and the ordinary German people. We are deliberately trying to separate them in the interests of the Germans themselves, whom we want to see integrated with the rest of the West in every constructive and peaceful activity, but not with rifles and nuclear bombers.
    Mr. Watkinson: I am very glad that the hon. Gentleman, therefore, supports the present policy of Her Majesty's Government.

    Service Departments (Land)
    Mr. Godman Irvineasked the Minister of Defence how much land is still held by Service Departments in England and Wales; what acreage has been sold or returned to farmer occupiers since 1945; how much land in the occupation of Service Departments is no longer necessary for the purpose for which it was originally requisitioned or bought; and what steps are taken to ensure that such land is made available for alternative development, or restoration to agriculture, when no longer required.
    Mr. Watkinson: The Service Departments today hold some 800,000 acres in the United Kingdom, including 720,000 acres in England and Wales, whereas in 1945 they held, or had temporary use of, over 6½ million acres.

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    Separate records are not kept of the amount sold or returned to farmer occupiers.
    Service Departments do not retain land unless it is required for defence purposes. Every effort is made to de-requisition or dispose, as quickly as possible, of land when it is no longer required.
    Mr. Godman Irvine: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the Select Committee on Estimates made a Report on the administration of Service lands in 1958? It made certain recommendations for improving the administration. His predecessor rejected the majority of those recommendations. In view of the general concern about this, will he now have another look at it?
    Mr. Watkinson: As my hon. Friend asks me to, I shall be only too pleased to have another look at the whole matter, because, as he will see from a subsequent Answer, we are very anxious to return as much land as we can.
    Mr. de Freitas: Will the Minister treat this most seriously, in view of the recent decision of the Government to hand land held by the Air Ministry over to a private firm instead of handing it over to its owners?
    Mr. Watkinson: That is quite a different question.
    Mr. Godman Irvineasked the Minister of Defence whether, in view of the concern felt by many farmers about the ease with which their land can be acquired for development in the national interest while large areas of land under the control of Service Departments appear to be fulfilling no useful purpose, he will initiate a survey of all land in the occupation of Service Departments, with a view to the release to agriculture, for development purposes, of land which proves no longer to be essential for service needs.
    Mr. Watkinson: The land holdings of the Service Departments are constantly scrutinised. Those surplus to short-term requirements are let for agricultural or other uses. Land which is no longer required in the long term is derequisitioned or sold.

    N.A.T.O. (Defence Ministers' Meeting)
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Minister of Defence what consideration was given at the recent meetings of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Defence Ministers to the desirability of West Germany being permitted to engage in the construction of submarines of up to 2,000 tons and naval vessels of up to 6,000 tons, and in the joint production of intermediate range missiles.
    Mr. Watkinson: None, Sir.
    Mr. Warbey: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether or not N.A.T.O. has approved in principle the German request for permission to construct naval vessels and other armaments, which, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, are beyond the limits imposed by the Brussels Treaty? Bearing in mind the warning given recently by the Prime Minister in Washington, when do the Government intend to call a halt to growing German military intentions?
    Mr. Watkinson: Discussions in the N.A.T.O. Council are confidential. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is not aware that the matters which he raised are not primarily for N.A.T.O., but for W.E.U.
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Minister of Defence what decisions were taken at the recent meeting of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Defence Ministers on the provision of extra-territorial bases, depôts, training and other facilities for the military forces of West Germany
    Mr. Watkinson: No decisions were taken about individual requirements, but it was agreed that the requirements of the Federal Republic or of any other member of the alliance, if sponsored by N.A.T.O., would be sympathetically considered by all N.A.T.O. countries.
    Mr. Warbey: As the West German Foreign Minister has said today that Germany requires bases, depôts and training facilities in countries in or near the N.A.T.O. area and as he has given fulsome praise to the present Spanish régime, does the right hon. Gentleman mean that N.A.T.O. and Her Majesty's Government have given the green light to German-Spanish military co-operation and, if so, why?
    Mr. Watkinson: On the general issue of what happened at the N.A.T.O. conference, I shall be answering that in answer to a later Question. I set out clearly in answer to a supplementary question from one of his hon. Friends the general attitude of Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain the part of the communiqué of the N.A.T.O. Council which states that he offered the use of the base in South Uist to the German forces? At a time when a rocket can travel 8,000 miles and get within 1½ miles of its target, is he not putting this island with its innocent population in great danger without being able to defend it?
    Mr. Watkinson: The hon. Gentleman has incorrectly quoted the N.A.T.O. communiqué. I will give him the correct version in answer to a later Question.
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Minister of Defence what plans for a war lasting 90 days were submitted during the discussions at the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation by the West German Defence Minister or a representative on his behalf; and what were the counter proposals submitted by the British representative.
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Minister of Defence to what extent he discussed with the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Defence Ministers at Paris the possibilities of the preliminary phase of another European war lasting 30 days.
    Mr. Zilliacusasked the Minister of Defence whether, in view of his re-affirmation of the nuclear deterrent strategy of the 1958 Defence White Paper and of the view that it is impossible to defend the people of this country against nuclear attack, the estimate made at the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation conference of a period of 30 days for the duration of a war, was supposed to run after a British decision to initiate nuclear warfare.
    Mr. Watkinson: There was no conflict between British and German proposals and plans of other countries; nor were the discussions concerned with the duration of a future war. There is, however, the important question of priorities. The appropriate N.A.T.O. authorities
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    have been asked to re-examine the preparations for the early phase of a possible war, but this does not mean that it has been decided that a war would last for only a given number of days, nor necessarily that there is no requirement for preparations for subsequent phases.
    Mr. Shinwell: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider it somewhat incongruous that, when there is so much talk about disarmament, which I gather is supported by Her Majesty's Government and by the vast majority of people in this country, N.A.T.O. should be considering plans for a future war? If such plans are envisaged, would it not be appropriate to advise the House of Commons about them—in general, if not in detail?
    Mr. Watkinson: As the right hon. Gentleman knows as well as anyone in the House, the purpose of N.A.T.O. and the whole alliance is to try to stop a war starting which could engulf us all. That duty remains on N.A.T.O. until we can succeed with the disarmament negotiations, in which Her Majesty's Government played a leading part in initiating the present plans under discussion. Therefore, the purpose of N.A.T.O. is a peaceful purpose, because it is to try to stop a war starting. If it is necessary, in order to do that, to revise our plans occasionally and look at them again, in my view there is nothing wrong in that.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that he is merely taking evasive action behind a smokescreen of words? Can he explain why two leading British papers which are widely read and very reputable, namely, The Times and the Guardian, stated that there was a discussion at this N.A.T.O. conference on whether the first phase of the next war would be 60 days or 30 days? As we have been told that a hydrogen bomb war could not last 24 hours, is not the Minister deluding and fooling the British public over the whole business of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation?
    Mr. Watkinson: I have said that N.A.T.O. discussions are confidential, but I do not think that I should be causing any great breach if I told the hon. Gentleman that there was no discussion in the N.A.T.O. Council about 30 days or 90 days.
    Mr. Zilliacus: Can the right hon. Gentleman now reply to my Question, which was how long, in view of the Government's decision to resort to nuclear weapons first in case of a conventional major attack, he expects the people of this country to survive the result of a nuclear counter-attack? Does he really think that 30 days—or 30 hours for that matter—is a realistic figure?
    Mr. Watkinson: Again, the hon. Gentleman is trying to import quite hypothetical considerations into the one question that matters to this island, and that is: can we, by our defence policy, stop a disastrous war starting? I must say that questions such as those asked by the hon. Gentleman do not, in my view, help the cause of defence or disarmament.
    Mr. Speaker: Brigadier Sir John Smyth.
    Mr. Zilliacus: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Owing to the completely unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply—
    Mr. Speaker: I had called another hon. Member before the hon. Gentleman rose to his point of order. I will receive it after that question has been dealt with.
    Sir J. Smyth: Is my right hon. Friend aware that last night, on B.B.C. television, General Norstad repeated what he has said many times before. He said that the rôle of N.A.T.O. is as a shield to make a break in continuity, to give time for thought, and that that is the essential rôle of N.A.T.O., as my right hon. Friend has said—to prevent a war rather than to fight it?
    Mr. Watkinson: I could not agree more with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Norwood (Sir J. Smyth). He has set out exactly the purpose of N.A.T.O., and the reason why we support it.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Zilliacus: On a point of order—
    Mr. Speaker: Now I am bound by the notice given.
    Mr. Shinwell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. An hon. Member can indi-
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    cate that he wishes, because of the unsatisfactory Answer to his Question, to raise it on the Adjournment, but cannot do that on another hon. Member's Question.
    Mr. Speaker: I think that the right hon. Gentleman's argument is attractively ingenious, as usual, but I do not think that it is quite right, because the Questions were answered together, and the notice that the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) gave to me related to the unsatisfactory Answer given to this batch of Questions that were answered together. I am afraid that I must treat it in that way.
    Mr. S. Silverman: In any case, Mr. Speaker, is my right hon. Friend's statement correct? Is it not within any Member's right to give such notice at any time, whether the Answer is to his Question or to that of any other hon. Member?
    Mr. Speaker: I think that that is quite right. Perhaps this is the moment when, without taking up time, I might ask the House to consider the question of giving notice, which occupies time at Question Time. I cannot help noticing that some notices are not followed up in any way, and it does have the effect, of course, of depriving other hon. Members for a time of what would otherwise be their opportunity of asking further questions.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not a longstanding tradition in this House that if an hon. Member is dissatisfied with an Answer to a Question, the traditional way of stating his objection is by asking for an Adjournment debate, even if it is not followed up?
    Mr. Speaker: I could not accept that, because the effect of giving the notice has a definite bearing on other hon. Members' rights.
    Mr. Fletcherasked the Minister of Defence what decisions were taken at the meeting of the North Atlantic Defence Ministers in Paris for the establishment of bases for strategic nuclear weapons in Germany.
    Mr. Watkinson: None, Sir.
    Mr. Fletcher: Would the Minister, therefore, give an assurance that, while

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    supporting all the legitimate requirements of N.A.T.O., Her Majesty's Government will not support any proposal for the establishment of bases for strategic nuclear weapons in Germany?
    Mr. Watkinson: That is quite a different question, and the hon. Member had better put it down.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallettasked the Minister of Defence whether he will make a statement on the meeting, which he attended, of North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Defence Ministers in Paris last week.
    Mr. Watkinson: Yes, Sir. As we expected, the Defence Ministers found it valuable to meet and exchange ideas about our common problems. Our meeting was most successful, and we hope that it will enable us to make better use of resources devoted to defence, to increase co-operation in research, development and production, and to secure an improvement in the logistic systems of allied forces.
    Detailed studies on all these matters have been set on foot.
    All N.A.T.O. Defence Ministers—I hope the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) will listen to the last part of this statement—expressed sympathy and understanding with the particular logistic and training problems of the German Federal Republic. I made it plain that if N.A.T.O. asks us to assist in meeting the requirements of Germany, or of any other N.A.T.O. country, we shall give these requests sympathetic consideration. It is clearly in the interest of Great Britain that German defences should be tightly interlocked with those of all members of the alliance, and this is the wish also of the democratic Government of the Federal Republic. Full agreement was reached on all the matters discussed, and I particularly welcomed the opportunity of personal talks with most of my colleagues. I hope that we shall have further meetings of this kind from time to time.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his personal contribution to the success of this conference. Is not its outcome an effective reply to those Jeremiahs who have been forecasting the early demise of N.A.T.O.—[Interruption.]—and can my right hon. Friend tell us—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I must have the help of the House; otherwise, we cannot get on.
    Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: Can my right hon. Friend tell us whether the problem of the common production of arms for Western European Union countries and by Western European countries was discussed and whether any progress was made in this difficult matter?
    Mr. Watkinson: As this has been mentioned in the Press, perhaps I should confirm that it was the unanimous view of all the Defence Ministers that a short list of projects, say twenty in number, on which we could all work together, might enable more rapid progress to be made.
    Mr. Woodburn: If bases are developed in Uist and other parts of Scotland, will the Minister try to induce those concerned to bring some other industries with them which will be useful in peace time if these things are not necessary for war?
    Mr. Watkinson: I suppose it may be that the other European countries which have offered facilities on an exchange basis to Germany have been attracted by the idea because, of course, the Germans have to pay for all the facilities.
    Mr. G. Brown: I listened as carefully as I could, but the Minister's Answer sounded to me like a wonderful collection of bromides. Did the meeting take any decisions? If so, what were they?
    Mr. Watkinson: The decisions taken will remain the confidential property of the meeting, as we agreed. The end-products will become available in various actions and decisions which will come out in the next month, as time goes by.
    Mr. Brown: How do decisions come out, from the point of view of the House? Presumably, the decisions were taken in the name of Her Majesty's Government, in so far as we were parties to them, and, thereby, in the name of the House of Commons. Are we to wait for them to leak out? Does not the Minister propose at some stage to announce to the House what decisions Her Majesty's Government, in our name, are a party to?
    Mr. Watkinson: I am not trying to be difficult about this. If the right hon. Gentleman will kindly look at what was, I admit, the rather long Answer I gave originally, he will see that I said quite clearly what studies have been put in hand for the appropriate N.A.T.O. authorities to carry through. I think it is quite clear from my Answer what those studies are. I admit that the end-products of them have yet to appear, but I think he will see that I have given the information in answer to the Question. If he is not satisfied, he can put down another Question, and I will try to answer it.
    Mr. Fletcher: Is it not contrary to the basis on which the House approved the admission of Germany to N.A.T.O. that any part of the British Isles should be used for training German troops? Will the Minister assure us that no such decision will be taken without consulting and obtaining the approval of the House?
    Mr. Watkinson: I have already said that, of course, if any major change in the arrangements were made, I should certainly inform the House. But I must make it quite plain that the House and the country have to choose; either they want a democratic Germany fully integrated as a loyal partner in the alliance or they do not. The Government do want it.

    Nuclear Weapons
    Mr. Zilliacusasked the Minister of Defence whether, in view of the fact that he has reaffirmed the nuclear deterrent strategy of the 1958 Defence White Paper, calling for resort to nuclear weapons against a major attack with conventional arms on a North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Ally, he is satisfied that a British decision to initiate nuclear warfare could be taken independently without requiring the agreement of the United States of America or of any of Great Britain's European Allies; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Watkinson: I do not think it is in the best interests of defence or disarmament to make statements about what we should do in hypothetical circumstances, or how we should do it.
    Mr. Zilliacus: Is not the Minister aware that he has reaffirmed the doctrine
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    that the Government will resort to nuclear weapons first in the case of a major nuclear attack? I asked whether the veto of the United States and this country on the use of nuclear weapons from this country applies to this eventuality as well. There is nothing hypothetical about that. It is the Government's policy that I ask about.
    Mr. Watkinson: The answer is that the Government's policy has been made quite plain. I do not necessarily accept the interpretations put on it at each Question Time by the hon. Member. The main purpose of our policy is to be in a firm posture on defence to try to stop a war starting.
    Mr. G. Brown: The right hon. Gentleman has rather called this on himself, and I think that he should answer my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) a little more clearly. The right hon. Gentleman's White Paper this year—that is to say, his first White Paper—seemed to throw down the doctrine in the White Paper of 1958. On the other hand, is it not true that when asked last week in this House whether he stood by the 1958 doctrine, he chose to say that it was a very good policy and one that has been justified by events? I think that I quote him accurately. He therefore chose to stand on the doctrine of the White Paper of 1958 although, as I say, his own White Paper seemed to throw the other down. Therefore, ought he not to answer my hon. Friend's Question?
    Mr. Watkinson: I do not think that that question bears exactly on the subject. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to put down a Question I will try to give him a very carefully considered Answer. As to the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I would say that the position of Her Majesty's Government is that we wish to take all possible action, as I have already said today, to try to stop a war starting that could engulf our civilisation. We shall take any measures we consider necessary to that end. We do not think it wise to advise possible aggressors of exactly what reply we would make to their aggression. That is a judgment best left to us.
    Mr. Shinwell: Why does the right hon. Gentleman refer to the Question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) as hypothetical when, in point of fact, he admits that at N.A.T.O. they have been considering a possible future nuclear war? Is not that hypothetical?
    Mr. Watkinson: N.A.T.O. is always considering these matters. That is how we stop wars starting.

    N.A.T.O. Personnel (United Kingdom Bases)
    Mr. Malcolm MacMillanasked the Minister of Defence to what extent, under the terms of the offer of Her Majesty's Government to the West German Government and other North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Governments of the use of bases and other areas in this country for military training, it is intended to permit German personnel to train in the firing of the Honest John and Corporal tactical nuclear missiles.
    Mr. Watkinson: As the House is aware, the use of the Hebrides missile range for a limited period has been offered to N.A.T.O. So far, no specific proposals have been received for its use by the forces of any particular N.A.T.O. country.
    Mr. MacMillan: While congratulating the Germans on perhaps having better sense than Her Majesty's Government in this respect, may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman will refer to a recent speech made by the Secretary of State for War, when he said that the greatest danger is not a conflict directly between the great Powers but one arising out of some explosive quarrel of some other Power? And is he not now, through the Government's policy, putting Germany in the position of being trained in the use of nuclear weapons which will soon be in their hands from the Americans? Is not that creating a situation in which we put ourselves in the greatest danger, which we are not able to control even within N.A.T.O.
    Mr. Watkinson: The Question is upon the use of the missile range in the Hebrides which has been offered to N.A.T.O. There has been some evidence to show that the inhabitants there are not entirely averse from it.

  UNITED NATIONS

    Conference on the Law of the Sea
    Mr. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is now in a position to state the decision of the United Nations Committee on the subject of fishing and territorial waters; and what future action he proposes to take.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Robert Allan): The Law of the Sea Conference at Geneva has not yet arrived at any agreed decisions. Any future action by Her Majesty's Government will be determined by the outcome of the conference.
    Mr. Awbery: Will the Minister inform us how the negotiations are going at Geneva and whether our fishery protection vessels have been withdrawn from Icelandic waters?
    Mr. Allan: Protection has been withdrawn from Icelandic waters.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Is the proposal now before the conference the American proposal for six miles territorial sea plus six miles fishing rights, with rights reserved for historic reasons, and will my hon. Friend say whether this proposal, in his opinion, is likely to obtain the necessary two-thirds majority?
    Mr. Allan: There are four plans before the conference. There is the plan about which my hon. Friend has just told us, the American plan, for six miles territorial sea plus six miles fishing, with traditional rights. There is also the Canadian plan which is a plan simply for six miles territorial sea and fishing. There is the Russian plan which is for twelve miles fishery and territorial sea. There is also the Mexican plan which is for twelve miles territorial sea, and, under certain conditions, a fishery zone up to eighteen miles. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, who is leading the United Kingdom delegation to the conference, has indicated his support for the American plan which we hope will succeed.

    Special Fund
    Mr. C. Royleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what conditions are laid down before any territory

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    can apply for assistance under the schemes of the United Nations Special Fund; and which territories have already applied.
    Mr. R. Allan: As the reply to this Question is very long, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Royle: Will the hon. Gentleman kindly consider the anomaly here, inasmuch as there is expense in making an application, and the poorer territories are unable to afford even to apply, while the richer territories will receive the grants because they can apply?
    Mr. Allan: I will certainly look into the matter which the hon. Gentleman raises, but, so far as I am aware, any or virtually any under-developed territory can apply. If he has a particular country or territory in mind, perhaps he will be good enough to inform me. I will certainly look into it.
    Following is the information:
    The United Nations Special Fund was established by resolution (1240/XIII) of the General Assembly. The text of this Resolution is to be found on page 11 of United Nations document A/4090, a copy of which is available in the Library. Paragraph 7 of Part B of this resolution states that "Participation in the Special Fund shall be open to any States Members of the United Nations or members of the Specialised Agencies or of the International Atomic Energy Agency". Non-self-governing territories, which are not eligible to participate under this clause, can submit requests for aid through metropolitan powers which are eligible. With very few exceptions, therefore, any under-developed territory in the world can apply for assistance from the Special Fund.
    Any territory which can thus submit projects must ensure that its requests conform to certain conditions. The most important of these conditions are laid down in the founding resolution and state that:

    (a) The Special Fund shall concentrate, as far as practicable, on relatively large projects and avoid allocation of its resources over a great number of small projects;

    (b) due consideration shall be given to the urgency of the needs of the requesting countries;

    (c) projects shall be undertaken which will lead to early results and have the widest possible impact on advancing the economic, social or technical development of the country or countries concerned, in particular by facilitating new capital investment;

    (d) due consideration shall be given to a wide geographical distribution in allocations over a period of years;

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    (e) due consideration shall be given to technical, organisational and financial problems likely to be encountered in executing a proposed project;

    (f) due consideration shall be given to the arrangements made for the integration of projects into national development programmes and for effective co-ordination of the project with other multilateral and bilateral programmes;

    (g) in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations, the assistance furnished by the Special Fund shall not be a means of foreign economic and political interference in the internal affairs of the country or countries concerned and shall not be accompanied by any conditions of a political nature;

    (h) projects shall be devised in such a way as to facilitate transfer, as soon as practicable, of the responsibilities of the Special Fund to assisted countries or to organisation designated by them.

    Because of the overwhelming number of requests for Special Fund aid, Mr. Hoffman, the Managing Director of the Fund, who is responsible for evaluation of project requests, has been forced to impose, with the agreement of the Governing Council, further conditions on the type of project put forward. He has stated that the Special Fund should concentrate on projects which would demonstrate the wealth-producing potential of unsurveyed natural resources in the less developed countries, on training and research institutes and on surveys of limited cost, which would lead to early investment. He has also fixed the minimum limit for a Special Fund contribution to a project at $250,000.
    The latest information available shows that up to July 31, 1959, the number of requests submitted to the Special Fund was 120. At that time preliminary informaton had also been given on 53 more projects. It is not the practice of the Special Fund to publish full details of requesting Governments (although Mr. Hoffman is prepared to indicate to Member States the reason for rejection of any particular requests). He has, however, revealed that the 120 projects submitted up to July 31, 1959, were distributed regionally as follows:

    Africa

    …

    …

    26

    Asia and the Far East

    …

    …

    24

    Europe

    …

    …

    4

    Latin America

    …

    …

    32

    Middle East

    …

    …

    34

    Algerian Refugees
    Mr. Randallasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the value in sterling of the vegetable oil provided by Her Majesty's Government in response to the appeal of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees on behalf of the Algerian refugees in Tunisia and Morocco; what other assistance has been given by Her Majesty's Government; and what further assistance is proposed.
    Mr. R. Allan: Her Majesty's Government have contributed through the League of Red Cross Societies the sum of £12,828 which purchased 91½6 tons of edible oil c.i.f. Casablanca.
    No other help has so far been given by Her Majesty's Government. A further appeal for aid to the refugees from Algeria has, however, now been received from the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees and is being considered.
    Mr. Randall: In view of the generous contribution made by the voluntary organisations, such as the Oxford Committee for Famine Relief and the Inter-Church Aid and Refugee Service, together with the £50,000 that has been contributed by the World Refugee Year organisation in this country, does not the hon. Member regard the £12,800 as woefully inadequate? Will the hon. Gentleman ask his right hon. and learned Friend to reconsider this matter and to give a worthy contribution to the further appeal made by the High Commissioner for Refugees?
    Mr. Allan: When we last discussed this matter nearly a year ago, just after the shipment of oil, my right hon. Friend the Minister of State said:
    "Recently the French Government have said that they are willing to supply in future all the needs of these refugees. We must see how that offer turns out, but if the United Nations High Commissioner wishes to ask us for further help, of course we shall give it most sympathetic consideration."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th June, 1959; Vol. 607, c. 1174.]
    He has now asked us for assistance, and, as I have said, we are giving the matter sympathetic consideration.

    Union of South Africa (Security Council Resolution)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why, having accepted the Security Council's right to discuss the South African policy of apartheid and its consequences, the United Kingdom representative abstained from voting on the ground that it was an internal affair of the Union of South Africa.
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the British representative abstained during the recent vote at the United Nations on a resolution on South Africa.
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how the British delegate on the Security Council of the United Nations Organisation voted on the resolution on the subject of apartheid in South Africa; what were the terms of the resolution; what was the voting on the resolution; and which delegates voted in favour, which against, and which abstained.
    Mr. Callaghanasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how the United Kingdom delegate at the United Nations Organisation Security Council voted on the resolution deploring the recent incidents in South Africa on Friday, 1st April, 1960; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. John Profumo): The representatives of the United Kingdom and of France abstained from voting on the resolution in the Security Council on the situation in the Union of South Africa: the other members of the Security Council voted in favour of that resolution. The text is available in the Library.
    The reasons for the action which Her Majesty's Government took were given by Sir Pierson Dixon in his explanation of vote, which I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT, and they were dealt with in considerable detail in a speech made in the country last Saturday by my right hon. and learned Friend.
    I am arranging that copies of this speech are made available in the Library.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the Minister of State aware that this act of evasion and failure to vote on the question of apartheid in the Security Council is totally unrepresentative of British and Commonwealth public opinion? Is not the right hon. Gentleman ashamed of it?
    Mr. Profumo: No, Sir, I am certainly not ashamed of it and I do not regard it as an act of evasion. We abstained for two reasons: first, because we thought that the resolution went beyond the scope of the Security Council, and secondly, because we did not think it was the most effective way of alleviating the situation.
    Mr. Grimond: Does the Minister really say that these events in South Africa and the repression by the South African Government of one race simply because it is of a different colour are purely and

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    essentially a matter for the domestic jurisdiction of South Africa only? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that this public washing of our hands at the Security Council will have a disastrous effect and also will probably mean that the full force of world opinion, which appears to be the only thing that may stop this disastrous progression in South Africa, will be thereby weakened?
    Mr. Profumo: No, Sir. There has been no question of washing our hands or of our being too cautious. This is certainly a question of judgment. We have spoken quite plainly, but it is obvious that certain actions would only be counter-productive. We must abstain from action which is likely to make things worse. What we want to do is to try to alleviate the position and I believe that our action was towards that end.
    Mr. Callaghan: Which part of the resolution did the Government regard as going too far? Was it the part which deplored the policies of the South African Government, the part which expressed regret that the disturbances should have led to great loss of life, the part that recognised that the situation had led to international friction, the part which called on the South African Government to initiate measures aimed at bringing about racial harmony based on equality, or the part which requested—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]—I am asking a question—or was it the part which requested the Secretary-General, in consultation with the South African Government, to make practical arrangements to uphold the principles of the Charter? Which part of the motion was it that the Government regard as being outside the scope of the Security Council?
    Mr. Profumo: The motion has to be taken as a whole. If the hon. Gentleman reads the explanation of vote by Sir Pierson Dixon and the speech which my right hon. and learned Friend has made, it will be clear to him that if we had taken action in voting for the resolution, the result would have been counter-productive.
    Sir G. Nicholson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the great mass of the people in this country are in no doubt whatever where Her Majesty's Government stand, and that general public
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    opinion feels that the greatest contribution which this House can make towards a happy solution of these tragic and perplexing events is to exercise restraint and leave Her Majesty's Government to use their own judgment as they think best at this delicate time?
    Mr. Callaghan: Is there not also world opinion to be considered here? Has the Minister of State seen the references in the Press to the effect that the British Commonwealth delegates to the Security Council were the most disconsolate body of people to be seen in the lobbies and corridors? Can the Minister of State, as he did not reply to my earlier question, tell me this? Why is it right for Her Majesty's Government and other Governments individually to state their point of view about the policy of apartheid, but wrong for them to do it collectively?
    Mr. Profumo: My right hon. and learned Friend, as a Minister of the Crown, is not bound by the same regulations as is the United Nations acting as a whole under the Charter. I must point out to the House that Article 2 (7), which has been much quoted, is one of the basic articles of the United Nations. I am absolutely convinced that the action which Her Majesty's Government has taken has been right. We have made it absolutely plain, both through the speech of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in South Africa, from the Answers which my right hon. Friend gave yesterday and from the speech made by my right hon. and learned Friend in the country, just where we stand about this. In the United Nations, we had a very delicate situation to deal with, which, if the hon. Gentleman does not understand it, I am sure that his colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench do. We made it possible to have a full and frank debate on this matter, and in my view we now have to see what will flow from it. What really matters is that there should be an alleviation of the situation.
    Mr. Brockway: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he would agree that the correct authority to decide what is within the jurisdiction of the United Nations is the United Nations itself, and not one member State? Is it not a fact that during the last Session, by 65 votes

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    to three, the United Nations decided that this subject came within the terms of reference, and if that is so, is it not cowardly of Her Majesty's Government to express in speeches views which they are not prepared to carry out in deeds?
    Mr. Profumo: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is fully seized of the delicacy of the situation. I recognise that he is quite genuine, and I mean with sincerity that I do not think he is fully seized of the situation. Before hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite go any further, I ask them, please, to read carefully the speech of my right hon. and learned Friend—the whole speech—and I am having the whole speech placed in the Library. That puts the matter in the right perspective, and I am not prepared to add to it today. We have to see what the result of our action in the United Nations will be, and I am far more concerned, as I know hon. Members are, about the tragic situation in South Africa today than I am about continuing supplementary answers.
    Mr. Callaghan: What we cannot understand, and what we have failed to get an answer to, is why the speech of the Foreign Secretary should not have been followed by a vote at the United Nations? I should like to repeat my question, whether the Minister of State wishes to answer supplementary questions or not. What I want to put to him is this. If he refers us to Article 2 (7) of the Charter, does he not recognise that what takes predominant place is the fundamental Article 1, which refers to the purposes of the United Nations as—
    "promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion."
    If there is a conflict between that fundamental purpose and the machinery as contained in the second Article, does he think that he is behaving in the best interests of British public life by allowing legal pedantry to take precedence over that Article?
    Mr. Profumo: The trouble with the hon. Gentleman is that he sometimes runs away with himself in the remarks he makes. It is all right for the hon. Gentleman—
    Mr. Callaghan: Stop moralising and give us an answer.
    Mr. Profumo: It is all right for the hon. Gentleman to do that, because he is not in a position of authority. I prefer to be careful. He asked me about the speech of my right hon. and learned Friend—[Interruption.]
    Mr. Speaker: Order. It has been the privilege of those who have been elected to this House for many years to listen to statements with which they do not necessarily agree, and to exercise some self-restraint while it is going on. Let the Minister now continue his answer.
    Mr. Callaghan: On a point of order. I accept what you say, Mr. Speaker, with great respect, but I must point out to you that we have not had any answers at all to the three questions I have put.
    Mr. Speaker: All this may show how unwise it is to attempt to debate matters at Question Time, but let us hear the answer.
    Mr. Profumo: I presume that the hon. Gentleman wishes to have something of an answer to his last supplementary question. With regard to the Articles in the Charter, which he has mentioned, I should remind him that Article 2 (7) says:
    "Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorise the United Nations to interfere in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any State, or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter."
    It is on this that we had to take a broad view.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: I am sure that it is unwise to attempt to discuss this matter now. There is no question before the House.
    Following is the explanation of vote:
    Extracts from the United Nations Security Council's Verbatim Record
    March 31, 1960
    Sir Pierson DIXON (United Kingdom): I should like to begin by quoting the Government motion which was tabled the other day in the House of Commons with regard to the tragic incidents which have given rise to our discussions here. It reads as follows:
    "That this House, while recognising that it has no responsibility for or jurisdiction over the independent countries of the Commonwealth, at the same time wishes to record its deep sympathy with all the people of South Africa in the recent tragic events which have taken place at Vereeniging and Langa."
    It is against the background of this expression of the attitude of Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom that I wish to set my intervention in our proceedings here.
    The first point which I must make is that Her Majesty's Government recognises the indisputable right and the duty of any Government to use the forces at its disposal to maintain law and order within its own territory. I believe that every member of the Council will agree with this proposition.
    Equally, we are very conscious of the strong feelings of deep concern which the events of 21st March have produced in many parts of the world, including the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom itself bears responsibilities for territories in Africa where more than one race have their home, and the whole question of race relations in these territories closely touches the thoughts and the conscience of my country. There can be no doubt about our own policy.
    The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Selwyn Lloyd, speaking in the General Assembly on 17th September last, stated it in words which were quoted by the Prime Minister, Mr. Macmillan in Capetown on 3rd February—words which have already been referred to round this table. They were as follows:
    "In those territories where different races or tribes live side by side, the task is to ensure that all the people may enjoy security and freedom and the chance to contribute as individuals to the progress and well-being of these countries. We reject the idea of any inherent superiority of one race over another. Our policy therefore is non-racial; it offers a future in which Africans, Europeans, Asians, the peoples of the Pacific and others with whom we are concerned, will all play their full part as citizens in the countries where they live and in which feelings of race will be submerged in loyalty to new nations."
    In stating what our own aims are, we neither underestimate the difficulties of others nor make exaggerated claims for our own policy. The problem of racial adjustment can never be easy. Essentially, the problem is a problem of relationships between human beings, and success in solving it cannot be achieved without the common endeavour of the many individuals who make up any society. Obviously, there is much that Governments can do to give a lead and to build up the framework in which mutual respect between individuals can flourish.
    To turn now to what faces us here in our deliberations. It is our view that the Security Council must approach the question before it with a strict regard for the limitations within which it can legitimately express its opinions. It is also our view that, in our consideration of this exceedingly difficult problem, we should be guided by the effect which our deliberations will have on the situation which we are here considering and on the people who are affected by it.
    Quite apart from the legal limitations within which the Council can properly act, it is a matter of history that any attempt to impose
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    from outside changes in the internal policies of a Government—particularly a Government of strong nationalist feeling—is only too likely to produce an effect contrary to the one intended.
    April 1, 1960
    Sir Pierson DIXON (United Kingdom): I stated in my intervention yesterday the attitude of Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom towards the general problem. I have nothing to add to what I then said. I made it plain in the course of that intervention that in our view there are limits within which the Council can properly and usefully act.
    In the view of Her Majesty's Government, this resolution goes beyond the scope of the proper functions of the Council. In our view, it would have been wiser and more effective for the Council to have contented itself with leaving the weighty discussion we have had to make its own impact. It was for these reasons that I abstained on the resolution.

  GERMANY

    Nazi Crimes (Investigation)
    Mrs. Castleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make available to the German Federal Agency for the Investigation of Nazi crimes the records of the investigations of war criminals conducted by the British Military Administration during the occupation.
    Mr. R. Allan: My right hon. and learned Friend will certainly do all he can to help this Agency if it applies for information on investigations of war criminals conducted by the British Military Administration during the occupation of Germany.
    Mrs. Castle: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply, but does not he agree that this is another case where documents of this kind which are of wide international interest ought to be placed under the control and care of the United Nations? Will he ask his right hon. and learned Friend whether he has given to this suggestion of mine the thought which he promised to give last week?
    Mr. Allan: I know that my right hon. and learned Friend is considering that.

    Gadeland Camp, Schleswig-Holstein
    Mrs. Castleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will place in the Library a list of the names

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    of former internees at Gadeland Camp in Schleswig-Holstein at the time of the liberation of that area by British forces.
    Mr. R. Allan: As far as I can discover, no such list exists.
    Mrs. Castle: Is it not a fact that this camp was used by the British Government at the time of the liberation as an internment camp for prominent Nazis? Surely there is some record available of the Nazis who were interned? Is the hon. Member aware that this information would help the Kiel Land Parliament in the inquiries it is at present conducting into the activities of Professor Heyde, a euthanasia expert under the Nazis, who is rumoured to be occupying a high official medical post in Schleswig-Holstein at present? Should not all assistance be given to the West German Government in these inquiries?
    Mr. Allan: In answer to the first part of the hon. Lady's supplementary question, she is right in saying that this was a camp in which Nazis were interned for examination and appropriate action under the denazification procedure. Those records are available in various places but are dispersed. Any list, if it ever existed, of the occupants of the camp would only be a roll-call—nothing more. In answer to the second part of the supplementary question, we will be very willing to assist any of the German authorities in making available to them, if they ask us, such information as we possess about this camp.

    Victims of Nazi Persecution
    Sir L. Plummerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will request the German Federal Government to publish the details of the special fund for stateless victims of Nazi persecution which is being established by them.
    Mr. Jamesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has considered the memorandum by Dr. Chmielowsky about the non-payment of compensation to stateless refugees of Nazi persecution, a copy of which has been sent to him by the hon. Member for Kemptown; what further action he proposes to take in respect of these refugees; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. R. Allan: The fund has not yet been set up by the German Government, so no details are yet available. I have read Dr. Chmielowsky's memorandum and can assure my hon. Friend that we are doing our best to promote a fair and early settlement for the stateless refugees.
    Sir L. Plummer: Is the Minister aware that those of us who are concerned with the problem are grateful to his right hon. and learned Friend for the considerable efforts he has made with the Federal Government? Nevertheless, may I ask the Joint Under-Secretary to say to his right hon. and learned Friend that it is time that pressure was put upon the Federal Government to make clear to the 25,000 victims of Nazi persecution who are stateless and the 1,050 people who suffered from the medical experiments that were made upon them, what compensation they will get for their loss of liberty and loss of health?
    Mr. Allan: I know that my right hon. and learned Friend will be grateful for the hon. Gentleman's remarks. I can tell him that my right hon. Friend the Minister of State yesterday sent for the German Ambassador and discussed this question with him.
    Mr. James: Will my hon. Friend take note that feeling on this important matter is equally strong on both sides of the House?
    Mr. Allan: Most certainly. I know that my right hon. and learned Friend appreciates that.

    Fighter-Bombers
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the Arms Control Agency of Western Union has verified whether the proposed construction of 660 supersonic fighter-bombers for Germany is in accordance with the Brussels Treaty provisions which prohibit German possession of a strategic air force.
    Mr. R. Allan: The possession by the German Government of this number of aircraft of the type in question would be consistent with the revised Brussels Treaty. Therefore the only function of the Arms Control Agency in this connection would be to verify, after the aircraft had come into the possession of

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    the German Government, that their number was consistent with the requirements of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
    Mr. Swingler: Does that mean that the Brussels Treaty has been amended to allow West Germany to have a strategic air force? If so, on what date?
    Mr. Allan: These are not strategic aircraft. They are tactical aircraft.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the report in the Guardian that these are bombers incorrect?
    Mr. Allan: They are fighter-bombers for tactical use.

    NUCLEAR TESTS
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the new developments in the discussions on ending nuclear tests.
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement on the progress made at the Nuclear Test Conference and the Ten-Power Disarmament Conference, respectively.
    Mr. Profumo: With regard to the Nuclear Tests Conference, I have nothing to add to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 1st April.
    With regard to the Ten-Power Disarmament Conference, I have nothing to add to my right hon. and learned Friend's statement in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey) on 30th March.
    Mr. Allaun: Following the Prime Minister's statement on defence and the hopeful compromises on both sides, what initiative are the Government taking to clinch an agreement? Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that, whatever risks may be involved from the danger of small secret underground tests, they are much less than the risks of continuing the nuclear arms race?
    Mr. Profumo: I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman on the latter part of what he said. As regards initiative, two
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    conferences are now taking place at Geneva and I have every reason to believe that, as a result of the talks held by my right hon. Friend and President Eisenhower, we shall be able to make progress.
    Mr. Henderson: Is it not most unfortunate that the Minister of State should give a reply with the effect his original Answer had, in view of the fact that the newspapers are full almost every day of reports of what is taking place at those conferences? Will he bear in mind two considerations? First, as regards the nuclear tests conference, is it his view that it may take time to secure agreement on the length of the moratorium and the number of on-site inspections, and is there not a great deal to be said for appointing a committee of experts to investigate the matter of detection without waiting for these other questions possibly to be referred to the Summit Conference?
    My Question refers also to the Ten-Power Disarmament Conference. Is it not a fact that the main difficulty in this conference is the existence of two plans? Is there not a great deal of common ground between these two plans, and will the right hon. Gentleman suggest that the secretariat of the conference be instructed to prepare one plan which could be the basis of the conference deliberations?
    Mr. Profumo: I do not think that my original Answer was unfortunate. I merely said that I had nothing to add. Since the right hon. and learned Gentleman has now asked certain very detailed supplementary questions, I will try to deal with them.
    On nuclear tests, I rather agree with him. In fact, this did feature in the joint statement which was issued after the Camp David talks between my right hon. Friend and President Eisenhower, and this has been put to the Soviet delegation in Geneva. We are now awaiting its acquiescence, or, at any rate, its reactions to it.
    Turning to the second part of his supplementary, I agree that, on the surface, his suggestion for the Ten-Power Conference looks very ingenious. Quite frankly, I think that the conference would be more likely to make progress if it were to focus its attention on those

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    aspects of the two plans where there seems to be some common ground rather than concoct a synthesis of the two plans which, one must admit, are really rather different.

    CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WARFARE (CONVENTION)
    Mr. S. Silvermanasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs which of our Allies in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation has as yet not signed or ratified the Geneva Conventions on Chemical and Biological Warfare; and, having regard to the embarrassments, with possible legal complications, of joint armed forces, some of whom are bound by these conventions and some not, what representations he will make in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Council to secure that all North Atlantic Treaty Organisation countries renounce the use of these weapons.
    Mr. Profumo: All our North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Allies are parties to the Convention except Iceland and the United States. President Eisenhower has recently made it clear that he is not contemplating any change in the traditional United States policy of not being the first to use chemical or biological weapons.
    With regard to the second part of the Question, North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Supreme Commanders act under the political direction of the North Atlantic Council. There can therefore be no question of such weapons being used without the approval of member Governments. No representations are, I think, necessary.
    Mr. Silverman: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that Answer. May I pursue it in this way? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the difference between a declaration by President Eisenhower and the signing and ratifying of the Convention is that, whereas a declaration by President Eisenhower binds his administration, it does not bind his country, and a formal act ratifying the Geneva Convention would be binding? Is it not also the case that under the Geneva Convention any nation which signed it would be released from its obligations if it was first attacked by these weapons? Therefore, if President Eisenhower's declara-
    388
    tion is intended to bind the United States, would not the simplest thing be for that country to do what the rest of us have done—sign the Convention and ratify it and put the whole matter beyond controversy and adverse propaganda? Is not the world subject to sufficient weapons of terror without retaining doubt whether these should be added to them?
    Mr. Profumo: I very much doubt whether anything which could be done would place any of these matters beyond controversy or adverse propaganda. The hon. Member will appreciate that I cannot be responsible for any action the United States Government may or may not take, whether it is this Government or the next Government. What I have tried to do in my Answer—I hope that I have succeeded—is to set the hon. Member's mind at rest that the situation is not one which will lead to any great danger.
    Mr. Gresham Cooke: On a point of order. Would you take note, Mr. Speaker, that in nearly forty minutes we have got through only twenty Questions, an average of two minutes on each Question? Ought not hon. Members to stop making speeches in the form of supplementary questions?
    Mr. Speaker: I am taking vigorous note of it with distress.
    Mr. Silverman: Is it not also the case that, if Ministers would answer shortly and simply the Questions asked of them instead of going off into rambling attempts to cloud the whole matter in humbug and doubt, we should get on a lot faster?
    Mr. Speaker: I doubt whether these exchanges assist progress. I want the help of the whole House, both of those who ask the Questions and of those who answer them, in this matter.

    DISARMAMENT
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will state the policy of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the termination of foreign military bases as part of an agreement for general and comprehensive disarmament.
    Mr. Profumo: A disarmament agreement should, in our view, be concerned

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    with the progressive reduction of forces and armaments, not with their strategic deployment during the process of disarmament. But we certainly foresee that at some stage in the process of general disarmament foreign military bases will be automatically terminated.
    Mr. Henderson: Has that point of view been made clear to the Russian delegation at, the ten-Power conference?
    Mr. Profumo: I think that it goes without saying, because if one aims at reducing one's armed forces to a stage where they are capable only of ensuring internal order, naturally one has no need for foreign military bases.
    Mr. Henderson: Does that mean that there will be no reduction in the number of foreign bases until the completion of general disarmament?
    Mr. Profumo: I did not say that. I have answered the Question as carefully as I could. I hope that when the right hon. and learned Gentleman reads the Answer he will agree with it.
    Mr. S. Silvermanasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government's policy at Geneva of pressing for nuclear disarmament in advance of conventional disarmament has been considered in the light of Her Majesty's Government's policy that any substantial attack in Europe, even if confined to conventional weapons, would be met with defence and retaliation with nuclear arms.
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will adopt the abolition of nuclear weapons as the first step in his policy of general disarmament.
    Mr. Profumo: We have not been pressing and we do not intend to press for nuclear disarmament in advance of conventional disarmament. We want, as hon. Members can see from our proposals in the White Paper, to advance by stages towards both nuclear and conventional disarmament.
    Mr. Silverman: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the public is getting more and more puzzled about Her Majesty's Government's policy in these matters? Does he agree that there would be an essential contradiction
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    between a policy of getting rid of nuclear arms first before proceeding with general disarmament and a policy of meeting an attack by conventional arms with nuclear weapons? If the Government are not in that dilemma, will the Minister take steps to make clear to the House and to the country exactly where the Government stand about these matters?
    Mr. Profumo: If the hon. Member reads carefully the White Paper in question, I think he will see that there is no inconsistency between Her Majesty's Government's disarmament policy as expressed at Geneva in the Western disarmament plan and the Government's policy about a possible major attack on the West as expressed by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence.
    Mr. Rankin: If the right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to adopt the kind of suggestion that I have made in Question No. 30 but proposes to retain the nuclear weapon against a possible conventional attack, does he realise that this will spread the nuclear deterrent more widely? How can the right hon. Gentleman reconcile that with a policy of general disarmament?
    Mr. Profumo: My trouble here is that the hon. Member and his hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) are putting forward proposals diametrically opposed to each other. Probably the best thing is for Her Majesty's Government to continue along the sound lines that we have adopted.

    CYPRUS (NEGOTIATIONS)
    Mr. Callaghanasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will now make a statement on the negotiations in Cyprus.
    Mr. Donnellyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the progress of the negotiations in Cyprus.
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the recent negotiations with Cypriot representatives on the extent of British bases in Cyprus.
    Mr. Profumo: Since my right hon. and learned Friend told the House on 7th March that discussions were proceeding and that a measure of progress had been obtained, my hon. Friend's discussions in Cyprus have gone steadily forward and more progress has been made. In particular, the text of the draft Treaty of Establishment has now been virtually agreed.
    Mr. Brockway: Is it not deplorable that there has been this delay in the initiation of independence in Cyprus? Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the first item in self-determination must be the right of a people to decide whether they shall have military bases on their territory and what the extent of those military bases shall be?
    Mr. Profumo: With regard to the delay, I think that the hon. Member knows perhaps as well as anyone in the House how difficult these discussions have been. It is not our fault if Archbishop Makarios and his colleagues have felt it necessary to discuss for days on end the problem of N.A.A.F.I., for instance. However, progress has been made. With regard to the bases, I think that the hon. Member realises and appreciates that we are trying to come to a conclusion based on the Zurich and London Agreements in which the question of bases was really fundamental.
    Mr. Donnelly: Could the right hon. Gentleman be more specific about the bases? Can he say precisely what is at issue now and what stage the negotiations on the bases have reached?
    Mr. Profumo: I am afraid that I cannot be as specific as the hon. Member would like. There is to be a further meeting between my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies and Archbishop Makarios and Dr. Kutchuk on Friday. If the House likes to know why it is not to be tomorrow, it is because Dr. Kutchuk himself had a number of prior political engagements. I hope that at that meeting the whole problem, including Dr. Kutchuk's suggestion, will be further discussed.
    Mr. Callaghan: Is it not the case that Dr. Kutchuk is the only one of the parties concerned, including Her Majesty's Government, who has recently spoken much sense about the question of the bases? Has the Minister of State seen
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    his reference to the growing misery and unemployment among the people of the island of Cyprus? May we take it that Her Majesty's Government will consider very favourably the proposal which he has put forward for having a base area of 100 square miles?
    Mr. Profumo: I have noted what Dr. Kutchuk has said. Just because he has said something in public does not mean that my hon. Friend and his advisers have not been battling away very hard within the conference. I assure the House that they have. I am not prepared to make any statement about the size of the sovereign base areas. I am sure that to do so would be wrong. The fact that there are to be further meetings, however, surely must mean that we are examining the matter very carefully and I hope we shall continue to make progress.

    NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANISATION
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the official proposal by the United States of America that the European nations associated with the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Should pay a larger contribution to the expenditure incurred by that organisation will entail an increased contribution from the United Kingdom; and how much.
    Mr. Profumo: I presume the right hon. Gentleman is referring to Press reports that proposals for increased national contributions to the common defence effort were to be made at the meeting of North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Ministers of Defence last week. Since proceedings in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation are secret, I cannot say anything about that meeting beyond what was contained in the communiqué and the replies which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence has just given.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that statements have appeared in the American Press, and have been covered by the United Kingdom Press, to the effect that the United States is demanding that all the countries associated with N.A.T.O. in Europe should pay an increased contribution? Does the right hon. Gentleman

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    say that this is incorrect? May we have an assurance that if the United Kingdom is to be asked to pay an additional contribution, the House will be consulted before a decision is reached?
    Mr. Profumo: I cannot answer the second part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, because it is hypothetical to the extent that I am not able to state what happened at the meeting any further than my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence has done. I have answered the Question. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to know something about defence expenditure, he will have to put that Question down to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence.

    OFFICIAL REPORT (CORRECTION)
    Mr. W. R. Wiliams: On a point of order. May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to direct your attention to a slight inaccuracy in column 171 of HANSARD for yesterday, 5th April, in which a supplementary question which I put to the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations has been inaccurately ascribed to the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams)? As the Minister of State has promised to convey my request to his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I have no desire further to embarrass the hon. Member with his right hon. Friend. Perhaps you would be good enough to arrange for the record to be amended so as not to embarrass the hon. Member any further and to exonerate him of any blame which may be attached to my supplementary question.
    Mr. Speaker: I am obliged to the hon. Member. It shall foe attended to.✶

BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION (ADVISORY GROUP)
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Ernest Marples): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I should like to make a statement about the group which is to advise about the British Transport Commission.
In accordance with the statement which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made on 10th March, I have
✶ Note: This correction has been made in col. 171.
now appointed the body which will advise me and the British Transport Commission. It will be composed as follows:
Chairman:
Sir Ivan Stedeford, K.B.E., Chairman and Managing Director, Tube Investments Ltd
Members:
Mr. C. F. Kearton, O.B.E., Joint Managing Director, Courtaulds.
Dr. R. Beeching, A.R.C.S., B.Sc, Ph.D., Technical Director of I.C.I.
Mr. H. A. Benson, C.B.E., F.C.A., partner in Cooper Bros., chartered accountants.
The Treasury and the Ministry of Transport will also be represented.
The task of the advisory body will be to examine the structure, finance and working of the organisations at present controlled by the Commission and to advise the Minister of Transport and the British Transport Commission, as a matter of urgency, how effect can best be given to the Government's intentions as indicated in the Prime Minister's statement.
Mr. Benn: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm, as to function, that this body has no executive responsibility? Will he tell the House whether it will be free to reach conclusions other than on those questions contained within the Prime Minister's statement and also to consider the development of transport needs generally?
As to the membership of the planning board, can he tell the House what has happened to the pledge made by his right hon. Friend that the British Transport Commission would be represented on the board? Can he tell us how that body, which does not include members of the Commission or the trade unions, or anyone with railway experience, can possibly reach an advisory conclusion which has any meaning as a matter of urgency?
Mr. Marples: We did think of having the Transport Commission represented on the advisory body, but, on reflection and after a great deal of thought, it was decided that the advisory body should be small and that neither the Commission nor the trade unions should be on it— [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because the

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advice of the Commission and the unions can best be put forward without inhibitions and in all freeness if they are not on the body itself.
The body will not be executive, but purely advisory. Its terms of reference are extremely wide:
"to examine the structure, finance and working of the organisations …"
I am quite certain that it will take into account other forms of transport when giving its advice.
Mr. Benn: Will it be free to make recommendations on matters beyond those contained within the Prime Minister's statement? Will the right hon. Gentleman recall that the Fleck Report came out not in favour of more decentralisation, but rather the other way round?
Mr. Marples: I ask the hon. Gentleman to study the terms of reference carefully. The body is
"to examine the structure, finance and working of the organisations at present controlled by the Commission".
Those terms of reference are very wide. I am extremely grateful to these men for giving up their time for this work. I think that their advice will be extremely comprehensive.
Mr. Grimond: Is it not implicit in the Minister's statement that the Transport Commission is at present incapable of running its own business? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] If that is so, why does the right hon. Gentleman not get rid of those members, and, if these people know more about transport, put them on the Commission instead? Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the new body is expected to report, and whether the Government intend to do anything whatever about the railways till it does report?
Mr. Marples: I cannot say when it will report, but I shall be in close touch —weekly or fortnightly—with it, so that if it makes recommendations immediate effect can be given to them. The hon. Gentleman, as a lawyer and the leader of a great party, knows that it is very unwise for people to be judges in their own cause. As this body is to examine the question of the railways, it would be wrong in principle to have on it people who were themselves concerned.
Sir W. Robson Brown: Is my right hon. Friend aware that he is to be congratulated on being able to recruit and to gain the advice of such exceptional men, who have distinguished themselves in industry and cannot do anything but contribute to the success of modern railways?
Mr. Marples: These men have been chosen for their wide, practical experience of large-scale organisations. I would hope that, as such, they would be accepted by the House, because one thing which will ruin any reorganisation will be if it becomes a party political matter again.
Mr. Donnelly: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that implicit also in his statement is a grave indictment not only of the Transport Commission, but of the Ministry? Surely there are people in the Ministry with a fund of knowledge about the railways and experience of transport problems in this country, so that it should not be necessary to go outside the Ministry to seek the expert advice that the Government should be having?
Mr. Marples: The advisory body is not necessarily to give expert advice. It will be considering expert advice which is given to it. It will be in close touch with the Commission, the unions, and they and anyone else may make any recommendations they wish.
Sir R. Nugent: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the body which he is appointing, and the expert membership he has there, is just the right sort of body to be able to tackle this very difficult problem, and that it would be a great mistake to muddy the waters of the very difficult job which it has to do by making it a political issue?
Will my right hon. Friend confirm that one of the tasks of this body will be to look into the working of the railway system, to disentangle the economic aspects from the uneconomic aspects, and to give advice on how the modernisation scheme should be remodelled to meet the needs of the future and to avoid large expenditure on modernising installations and services which are now out of date?
Mr. Marples: I think that I can assure my hon. Friend that the terms of reference are wide enough for this body to

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be able to make almost any recommendation it likes. [Interruption.] I am extremely sorry that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) takes—
Mr. Robens Mr. Robens rose—
Hon. Members: Sit down.
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is not worthy of the dignity of this House that Members should interrupt a Member who is speaking, so that we cannot get on with business. Let the Minister finish. He is in the middle of an answer.
Mr. Marples: These men have been chosen not on any sectional basis— [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] They do not represent the trade unions, the Commission, or anyone else. They have been chosen purely because they have experience of large-scale organisations, and, as such, I am quite certain that they will be successful.
Mr. Shinwell: While it might be unexpected that the Minister would appoint somebody on this body from the railway trade unions, would it not have been appropriate, advisable and more in the interests of an effective, considered and objective report to have asked the unions to suggest somebody not connected with the railways? When he informs the unions that this is not a party matter, is he aware that what he has done is to appoint a number of industrial tycoons who are likely, I think, to be more representative of the Tory Party?
Mr. Marples: Not necessarily. A number of very wealthy people and industrial tycoons are members of the party opposite. The members of this body have not been chosen on that basis. The trade unions and the Transport Commission have been treated the same. They can give whatever evidence they wish to this advisory group.
Mr. P. Williams: Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that this advisory body will be able to hear evidence from outside the railways, in particular from the British shipping industry?
Mr. Marples: Yes, Sir. I am quite sure that it will welcome informed advice and opinions from interested outside bodies. That is its job. I am sure that it will do it well.
Mr. Popplewell: Is the Minister aware that those who are interested in the industry will learn of his statement with deep regret? Is he also aware that the people he has appointed are, many of them, representing the same types of industry, Tube Investments Ltd., I.C.I., Dorman Long's, and banking and finance, from which already there are part-time members of the area boards? Some of them are already members of the Commission. In view of that, does not the Minister realise how ridiculous his statement is? Will he not take it back with a view to allowing people who really understand transport to get on with the job? He knows that on the area boards there are part-time appointments, and that he has several people with the same types of qualifications as those whose appointments to the advisory body he is now announcing, and that they are already interfering with transport and have turned it from a profitable undertaking into an undertaking showing a big deficit since they were appointed?
Mr. Marples: The hon. Member's question contains a number of inaccuracies. There is no member of this advisory body who is with Dorman Long's and no member of the Transport Commission.
Mr. Popplewell: I.C.I.
Mr. Marples: The point is that these men have great experience of transport. In fact, one of them gives a great deal of business—millions of pounds a year —to transport. He knows what is expected of it and will see that we get an efficient system.
Mr. Mellish: The right hon. Gentleman will understand that most of us on this side of the House, at any rate, honestly and sincerely believed that the time had come when politics should be taken right out of the transport industry. We have pleaded for this and, indeed, since 1947 this has been argued politically. Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise, therefore, that his statement today, with the absence from it of reference to representatives from the T.U.C., will now create tremendous doubts in the minds of those who work in this industry? They are very important people. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to look again at the whole membership of this body and see whether or not he cannot bring the workers interested into it.
Mr. Marples: After great thought it was decided that both the Commission and the unions would be better giving evidence than deciding—
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Many hon. Members are rising, but it is quite clear that we cannot debate this matter without a Question before the House.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS
  Industrial Shares (Wider Ownership)
  Mr. Gresham Cooke: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 6th May, I shall call attention to the desirability of the wider ownership of industrial shares, and move a Resolution.
  Youth Service (Albemarle Report)
  Mr. Janner: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 6th May, I shall call attention to the Albemarle Report on the Youth Service in England and Wales, and move a Resolution.
  Commonwealth and Colonies
  Mr. Costain: I beg to give notice that on Friday, 6th May, I shall call attention to the desirability of increased teaching about the Commonwealth and the Colonies, and move a Resolution.

  RESTRICTION OF IMPRISONMENT OF CHILDREN
  3.54 p.m.
  Mr. Alan Brown: I beg to move,
  That leave be given to bring in a Bill to restrict the committal to prison of children under sixteen years of age, to provide for the transfer to remand homes or remand centres of certain children who have been so committed, to prescribe the period for which such restrictions and provisions shall remain in force, and for connected purposes.
  I most sincerely crave the indulgence of the House for the next ten minutes and if I have recourse to my notes rather more than is to the normal liking of hon. Members, I hope that I shall be forgiven, because I have a great deal to say and very little time in which to say it. I also, with respect, ask hon. Members, as far as possible, to forget their political affiliations and consider only that other side of life which is possibly more important—the family side and the rôle of parenthood, because I wish to speak about the nation's children, many of whom even now as we deliberate are locked in prison cells throughout the land.
  I am sure that hon. Members will agree with me that society received a severe shock, three weeks ago, when it came to light that a schoolgirl of 14 was imprisoned in Holloway Gaol. I trust that hon. Members will forgive me if I further impress upon them the gravity of the matter now before us, and the serious concern expressed by the public following that disclosure, by quoting an editorial from one of Britain's national newspapers. The editorial said:
  "The story of a 14-year old girl sent to Holloway on remand and placed in a ward with women accused of murder is horrifying. Is this the 17th or 20th century? A pathetic point about the case is that the girl was originally in trouble for playing truant from school. It's a ghastly thought that the means society has devised for her protection might be a stepping stone to a rake's progress. Magistrates have the power to remand juveniles in prison. But, if this system means that children may be bundled together with possibly hardened criminals it should be smashed."
  I think that I would be correct in saying that this editorial fairly reflected the reaction of the entire national Press and of the British public, and I hope the hon. Members will also be of that opinion. Suffice, therefore, that I say

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  that the Governor of Holloway Gaol, whom I subsequently visited and by whom I was received with great courtesy, told me that she was completely opposed to the sending of school children to these prisons. And of those persons who played a part in the enacting of this tragic affair, from its very start to its finish, who should be in a better position to judge than this good woman?
  I now turn briefly to the treatment accorded to schoolboys. On 22nd March, when I visited Wormwood Scrubbs, I discovered nine boys below school-leaving age imprisoned there. There are two prison blocks within the outer wall of this notorious prison. One block is the "boys'" prison and the other is the "men's" prison. The term "boys" is used in this instance in a rather loose way, because, in fact, this boys' prison contains persons in the entire age range of over 14 to under 21. I particularly mention this because of public anxiety that the inmates of the boys' prison might be associating with the inmates of the men's prison. In fact, they are kept quite separate.
  There is a real danger, however, of the possible criminal indoctrination of the schoolboys by the older youths of the "young adult" class. The knowledge that criminal statistics reveal an alarming increase in crime, both against property and the person, to an extent that is coming near to placing this "over 17, but under 21 group" into a class by themselves, is perturbing. The knowledge, also, that recent American criminal statistics reveal that young adults of 19 constitute the peak age of criminality is also worthy of note.
  The Governor of Wormwood Scrubbs said to me, "We have youths in the 17 to 21 age group guilty of very serious crimes; in fact, the whole gamut, including rape, robbery with violence and attempted murder." The Governor, the two Assistant Governors, the Chief Prison Officer, together with the welfare officer and senior prison officials, to all of whom I spoke, were unanimous in their condemnation of the present practice of sending schoolboys to such prisons. "Pitiful" was the expression used by the Chief Prison Officer.
  The children are locked individually in the ordinary type of bare comfortless prison cell measuring about 7 ft. by
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  10 ft. It is, indeed, a pitiful sight. There are no educational facilities. Surely hon. Members condemn such mediaeval treatment of our children today.
  I now briefly turn to the arguments put forward against the proposals in the Bill. From the social and humanitarian viewpoint, I cannot conceive that these can be valid. The concept that a child may not be imprisoned for any reason whatsoever before he or she reaches the normal end of compulsory school attendance is already the accepted practice in most countries.
  The argument which has received most publicity is that if we release school children from prison there is nowhere else for us to send them. To some extent, this may be true at the moment, but let us not, in the light of what I am about to say, accept it as being wholly true—sfor if we do then we stand convicted on our own evidence.
  If shortage of remand homes is to be pleaded, why, in heaven's name, have so many of these homes been closed down in recent years? The seventh Report of the Children's Department of the Home Office states:
  "Between 1st January, 1951, and the 1st January, 1955, eighteen Remand Homes owned by local authorities were closed down with a consequential loss of 495 places. The result of such closures meant that in January. 1955, the country was left with 36 Remand Homes for boys, 14 Remand Homes for girls, plus one mixed sexes Remand Home—all provided by local authorities."
  In addition, we were able at that time to use 10 remand homes owned by voluntary organisations. It is only fair to say that between 1st January, 1951, and 1st January, 1955, there was a decrease in the incidence of juvenile delinquency, but it is difficult to see how such a decrease justified the reduction in the available remand homes during that period from 79 to 61, representing a closure of about 25 per cent.
  We may ask whether there was singular lack of foresight by those concerned, because between 1955 and now the incidence of juvenile delinquency has heavily increased. Yet, in spite of this increase, there has been a further closure of remand homes. While in 1955, we could call upon 10 remand homes owned by voluntary organisations, there are only four of them today. Six have been closed

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  since 1955. In addition, nine more remand homes owned by local authorities have been closed since 1955.
  On the credit side, six new remand homes have been opened and one is building at Hassocks. This will reduce the net loss of local authority remand homes to two since 1955. We must face the situation that since 1955 there has been a net loss altogether of eight remand homes.
  In view of these figures, hon. Members may consider that there is some justification for the saying that the children's service has become the Cinderella of our social services. The figures for 1958— the latest available—from the Home Office indicates that the rather alarming figure of 484 boys and 12 girls, being children of school age, had the stigma of prison attached to their young lives. The school children do not remain in prison for the whole year; so far as I can deduce 120 to 150 are at the moment lying in prison.
  Need these little school children wait in their prison cells? Would not hon. Members agree that if we have discharged our duties as parents they need not be there at all? Will they not also agree that children are very defenceless and very helpless? Who but to us can they turn for help?
  I have exceeded my time, Mr. Speaker, and I apologise.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. A. Brown, Mr. C. Royle, Sir G. Benson, Mr. A. Greenwood, Miss Bacon, and Mr. M. Stewart.
  RESTRICTION OF IMPRISONMENT OF CHILDREN
  Bill to restrict the committal to prison of children under sixteen years of age, to provide for the transfer to remand homes or remand centres of certain children who have been so committed, to prescribe the period for which such restrictions and provisions shall remain in force, and for connected purposes, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 6th May, and to be printed. [Bill 94.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Considered in Committee [Progress 5th April].
  [Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]
  AMENDMENT OF THE LAW
  Question again proposed,
  That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the national debt, and the public revenue and to make further provision in connection with finance, so, however, that this Resolution shall not extend to making amendments of the enactments relating to purchase tax so as to give relief from tax, other than amendments making the same provision for chargeable goods of whatever description or for all goods to which any of the several rates of tax at present applies.

  BUDGET PROPOSALS AND ECONOMIC SITUATION
  4.7 p.m.
  The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Anthony Barber): Before turning to some of the wider issues in the Budget proposals, there is one matter that I would like to mention. Yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) suggested that the economic affairs of the country had been so arranged as to provide an easy Budget before the election and what the right hon. Gentleman called a tough Budget after the election. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Perhaps they and their hon. Friends who are jeering will allow me to say this: they may think in all sincerity that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer's judgment was at fault last year, or that it is at fault this year. They may consider his assessment of economic trends to be wrong, but I think that anyone who knows my right hon. Friend will also know that in acting as he did he would not be motivated by any other consideration than the best interests of the country.
  Hon. Members: Oh.
  Mr. Barber: Members opposite may jeer, but I hope that they will consider that it would have been very easy for him

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  to have said, "The increased duty on tobacco would bring in only £39 million this year, which, in a total Budget of more than £6,000 million, is a very small figure. I think that I should do this, but it would not be popular, so I will forget it."
  My right hon. Friend did what he thought right, however, and Members opposite might at least have given him credit for that. The right hon. Member for Huyton has graphically described the prospects for 1960 as having a "morning after" appearance. If this were even an approximation of the truth, one thing is clear—that the six years of the Labour Government were one long hangover. In those days the only answer of the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends was to imbibe more and more draughts of Socialism with the inevitable consequences, which we all learnt to our cost.
  The truth is that the approach of the Opposition is typical, and their basic principle, regardless of the needs of the economy, is to support all that is popular and oppose all that is unpopular. When the right hon. Member for Huyton talked glibly yesterday of increased revenue from proposals concerned with expense accounts and a tax on capital gains, I could not help casting my mind back to 1951, when the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition was Chancellor of the Exchequer. In that last Socialist Budget he raised no less than £400 million in taxation. If the revenue from expense accounts and from a capital gains tax is now thought to be so significant, why was nothing done about it in 1951?
  Perhaps I might turn for a moment, as there is a representative of the Liberal Party here—the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt)—to the proposals of the hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Party. They were stated very clearly in the Daily Sketch on 1st April. I do not know whether there was any particular significance in the date. The hon. Gentleman's article was entitled, I thought rather hopefully:
  "If I were Chancellor of the Exchequer."
  I could not help wondering who was to be Prime Minister.
  However, the proposals are quite clear and quite simple: first, put aside £100 million to raise the old-age pensions;
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  secondly, abolish Surtax; thirdly, abolish all tax on the first £500 of new savings; fourthly, abolish Purchase Tax and replace it with a small expenditure tax; fifthly, allow tax remission to companies which set aside shares for their workers; sixthly, abolish Schedule A tax on property; and seventhly, cut all tariffs by one-half. Then the hon. Gentleman added:
  "That is all I can do this year."
  These proposals, unfortunately, lack a certain amount of precision, and no doubt the reason for the hon. Gentleman's absence today is that he is away working out the details. I would only add that, depending on what the hon. Gentleman has in mind, they might cost about £750 million a year or, indeed, a great deal more.
  Hon. Members: Chicken feed.
  Mr. Arthur Holt: The hon. Gentleman has not regaled the Committee with the first paragraph.
  Mr. Barber: I was going on to say that against this increased expenditure the hon. Gentleman has plans for reducing expenditure by only £225 million. That is the content of the first paragraph. Anyway, I hope that the hon. Gentleman may catch your eye, Sir Gordon, so that we can consider these proposals in greater detail.
  There is one overriding objective in this Budget, and that is to prevent a return of inflation. For almost two years now we have enjoyed the priceless advantage of a stable cost of living. This is the first time that this has happened in the fifteen years since the end of the war. I think there is nobody in the House of Commons and certainly no one in the country who would deny that the duty of the Government is to do everything in their power to maintain this stability even if, in the course of doing so, it is necessary to take measures which, in themselves, none of us likes. It is, I think, also accepted by almost everyone today that the Budget provides one of the most effective means of balancing the economy; in other words, of ensuring that there is a balance between the pressure of total demand, on the one hand, and available resources on the other.
  Mr. Gerald NabarroNot at all.
  Mr. Barber: My hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) says "Not at all." I must leave it to him and what he called yesterday, rather possessively I thought. "his group" to determine their own views on these matters.
  The fact is that this is accepted by most people today, and it really is impossible to maintain that balance by leaning in one direction only year in year out. One might as well suggest that a doctor should offer the same prescription irrespective of whether the patient has a high temperature or a low one.
  I believe that when these years come to be seen in their proper perspective it will be agreed that it would have been wrong of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have acted differently either last year or this year. [Interruption.] Perhaps I could put the matter this way. Consistency of policy to keep the economy in balance does not mean consistency of measures. The Chancellor was right to stimulate demand last year, and when the situation changes, as it is changing, he is right to apply some mild restraint this year.
  I might add that it seems to me that the cardinal sin would be to be afraid to do the right thing, either from fear of being charged with bribing the electorate or from fear of being called inconsistent. As everybody knows, we have had yet another year of stable prices, and at the same time it has been a year of record production; and the very fact that the restraint which my right hon. Friend has had to recommend this year is so limited is in itself a tribute to the judgment and skill with which he has managed our affairs over the past few years.
  So far as this year is concerned, I can assure the Committee that even a slight increase in taxation is unpalatable to me, but I do not think that it will be thought too high a price to pay to prevent the sort of rip-roaring inflation which we experienced under the Labour Government. Once the economy gets out of hand, as it did then, and the reserves go pouring out, the corrective measures—
  Hon. Members: What about 1957?
  Mr. Barber: Hon. Gentlemen say "What about 1957?" We need only look at the last nine months of 1951 when, if my memory serves me aright—
  Mr. H. Rhodes: That is as far away as the Crimean War.
  Mr. Barber: I wish it were as far away as that.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: It is as far away as 1066.
  Mr. Barber: All right, 1066. Let us forget it, then. Let us assume that 1951 was a jolly good year for us all.
  The fact is that once the economy gets out of hand, as it did then—we must learn some of the lessons of what occurred then—and the reserves go pouring out, the corrective measures which will be necessary will, of necessity, have to be far more drastic.
  Mr. Rhodes: We have had enough of these comparisons with 1951—
  Mr. Geoffrey Hirst: I bet you have.
  Mr. Rhodes: Wait for it. If the President of the Board of Trade will look in his archives, he will see that one of the contributory factors was the American docking down of commodities to this country. For instance, there was sulphur; 460,000 tons per year of crude sulphur was what we experienced in the way of imports—
  The Chairman: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but perhaps he will catch my eye later.
  Mr. Rhodes: Thank you, Sir Gordon.
  Mr. Barber: Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have on many occasions given explanations for what happened in those years. I was simply talking of the consequences.
  There is one point on which I want to be quite specific. One of the prime purposes of the Government remains the reduction of taxation, and if it were not so I should not be speaking from this Dispatch Box. But I must say that I find it very difficult to understand the point of view of anyone who has given serious consideration to these matters who believes that it is possible to reduce taxation year in year out and, at the same time, contain inflation. After all, very large reductions in tax and the rates of taxation have been made under successive Conservative Chancellors since 1951. This is only the third Budget out of 10 in

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  which it has been necessary to make any net increase, and on this occasion I think it is fair to remind the Committee that the net increase, including the increase in Profits Tax which will not be payable until next year, amounts to only 1·2 per cent. of total revenue and only one-third of 1 per cent. of the national income.
  Mr. Nabarro: Plus local rates.
  Mr. Barber: I should now like to say something about the increase in tax.
  Mr. Nabarro: May I remind my hon. Friend of a point which I made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday evening? The Chancellor represented to the Committee that the increase in tax for a full year is £72 million. I put to the Chancellor that there must be added to that the aggregate of the increase in local rates, which is about another £50 million, so that really the increase in taxation is £122 million in a full year. Will the Economic Secretary deal with that point?
  Mr. Barber: I am sorry that I was not here yesterday to hear the speech by my right hon. Friend.
  Mr. Nabarro: No, "honourable".
  Mr. Barber: I am sorry; I should not like to anticipate anything. I read very carefully what my hon. Friend said on this point. I can only say that I looked at it most carefully and that I disagree entirely with his conclusion. I think that the figures which were given by my right hon. Friend concerning the increase in tax were correct, and I think that, though the question of rates is certainly a relevant matter, it does not in any way detract from what my right hon. Friend said or from what I am about to say.
  Mr. Michael Stewart: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves that point, will he remind his hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) that hon. Members on this side of the Committee drew emphatic attention to the increasing burden of local rates in a debate on 25th February and that we missed the hon. Member for Kidderminster on that occasion?
  The ChairmanI remind the Committee that there are many hon. Members
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  who wish to speak and that fewer will be able to do so if there are too many interruptions.
  Mr. Barber: I think that the Committee will expect me to say something about the two increases in tax in this Budget. The first is the Tobacco Duty. Of course, once it is decided that in the general interests of the economy a net increase of taxation is necessary, it is not an easy matter to select the particular tax, but the first point to be appreciated in this connection is that the consumption of tobacco has been rising steadily.
  During the last ten years, clearances of tobacco leaf from abroad rose by an average of about 2 per cent. In 1949, the public spent £750 million on tobacco, and, in 1959, £1,060 million, an average increase of 3 to 4 per cent. a year. The effect on the cost of living is an increase in the retail price index of only about two-fifths of a point.
  For someone who smokes 20 cigarettes a day, the increase in duty will cost about 1s. 2d. a week. I do not pretend that that is insignificant, but it is fair to compare that 1s. 2d. a week with the increase in earnings which took place last year. Between October, 1958, and October, 1959, average weekly earnings increased by 14s. 1d. a week, and that was during a period when prices remained stable.
  I must admit that I was somewhat surprised that the Opposition decided to divide the Committee on the Budget Resolution concerned with this increase in duty. After all, the Opposition increased that duty twice when they were in office and on one occasion by no less than 1s. on a packet of 20 cigarettes.
  Mr. H. Wilson: The hon. Gentleman likes to keep going back to those days. Will he not agree that we left the Tobacco Duty so that the price of 20 cigarettes was 3s. 4d., while he has now raised the price to 4s. 1d.?
  Mr. Barber: I was simply comparing the increase, which I thought was relevant, in view of the action taken by the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends on Monday afternoon.
  My right hon. Friend has already explained the reasons which prompted the increase in Profits Tax, and I do not propose to go over them again this afternoon. However, yesterday the right hon Gentleman said that he thought that the

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  increase in Profits Tax was not large enough, and he went on to say that company profits last year rose by 11 per cent. I must say that I thought that it was a little odd that he omitted to say, or forgot to remind the Committee, that in the previous year profits fell by 4½ per cent. In fairness, and to get the matter into perspective, the Committee should have these figures: between 1948 and 1959, company profits rose by 85 per cent.; company dividends rose by 89 per cent.; and average wage earnings rose by 95 per cent.
  There is one other matter which I should mention at this stage. In at least one newspaper this morning there was considerable misunderstanding about the effect of my right hon. Friend's proposals for dealing with lump-sum payments and I should like to make one aspect of that clear. It is not proposed to tax lump sums paid under statutory superannuation schemes, or other approved superannuation schemes, to persons who retire on reaching retirement age. In cases where there is no superannuation scheme, if an employer voluntarily pays a sum to an employee who is retiring at the normal retiring age, and the amount is not, broadly speaking, greater than the amount which he would have been permitted to receive under an approved superannuation scheme, that lump sum will not be taxed.
  I have already said that the prime objective of the Government is to prevent a return to inflation. But that is not a matter for the Government alone. Between the party opposite and ourselves there is a fundamental difference about the extent to which many of the everyday activities of the individual should be controlled by the State. The fact that that difference of approach arises from convictions which are sincerely held makes it all the more real. Conservative Governments do not pretend, and have never pretended, that the Government alone can control inflation.
  I would be the first to admit that the recent success of our economic policies has been due in large measure to the responsibility which has been shown by both sides of industry. I believe that over the past few years the economic effect of what I might call disproportionate wage and salary increases has become far more widely appreciated. People now
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  know perfectly well that when wage increases are too big in relation to productivity, or follow one another too quickly, they are self-defeating, because there is inevitably a decline in the real value of each £ of the wage packet.
  Having broken—as we have—the vicious circle of wages and prices, everyone is now aware of the benefits, and not least those living on small fixed incomes. Indeed, whatever the differences between us on questions of policy, it is fairly clear that the events of last October showed that the public was well content with what had been achieved.
  The maintenance of general stability in prices is not something which we can get simply by a short, sharp effort. It involves a long and sustained haul. As my right hon. Friend pointed out on Monday, over the last year there has been a very large increase in productivity. The number of people in employment, the hours which they have worked and the wages they have been paid have all increased. Perhaps the most significant fact is that production increased to an even greater extent.
  That has been the most important element in maintaining price stability over the past two years. There are some —I think that they are a minority—who think that in the near future there is scope for a further substantial rise in wages or other personal incomes without any danger of renewed inflation. Such an attitude is not held by the majority of people and it stems from a complete misunderstanding of the situation.
  In the first place, it is illusory to look simply at the results of one year in isolation. The year 1959 was a year in which production increased faster than wages, but in 1958 it was precisely the other way around. As hon. Members are never tired of reminding us, 1958 was a year in which productivity actually declined, so to start with there was some leeway to be made up at the beginning of last year.
  What of the year which we are just entering? Can we expect production to continue to expand at its present rate? I do not believe that we can. To say that is not a sign of pessimism, but is merely facing the facts. After all, a year ago there was spare capacity. Today, what little spare capacity still remains in industry—except in certain less fortunate

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  areas—is rapidly being taken up. Very soon, the only ways in which production will be able to expand will be through large-scale overtime working, with its consequences for the country's wage bill, or the normal processes of technical improvement and capital investment. As the Economic Survey points out, we are expecting an increase in capital investment, which is already at a high level, but even so, there is a limit to what can be expected from that source.
  All that boils down to the fact, which we must face, that we cannot expect production to go on increasing at the same rate as last year. That means that in the general interest we must obviously be cautious about the amount that persona] incomes can now increase in the present year without damaging the economy as a whole. By "damaging the economy as a whole" I mean recurrence of inflation, with all the inevitable consequences and hardships which flow from it. It is not an exaggeration to say that whether or not we succeed in maintaining general price stability is largely dependent on what happens to wages and other incomes over the next twelve months or so.
  It is essential to see how much improvement in productivity we will achieve this year before we start trying to collect it in advance through higher incomes. It would be the height of folly if those who settle these matters were to blind themselves to what is, in fact, in their own best interest as well as the country's, and I do not believe that they will.
  I have spoken about wages at some length, and I have done so because, after all, they account for roughly one half of retail prices. It is, therefore, clear that of the factors which are within our own control, the level of wages can have a dominant effect. However, I do not want it to be thought by the Committee that we regard the level of profits as insignificant. I have already given the accurate figures. Profits, as has been rightly said several times in the last couple of days, are essential as an incentive to investment, and, of course, they are also an important source of savings.
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  If it is right to say to the wage earners that what is good for the country is good for them, then precisely the same applies to employers. In their case, what is good for the country at the moment is undoubtedly that some of the benefits of the increased productivity which they are enjoying should be passed on to the general body of consumers. After all, in the long run, that is the only way of ensuring that those living on fixed incomes obtain a share of the national prosperity.
  I do not want to deal this afternoon with the question of price reductions. My right hon. Friend has on several occasions made his position clear on this matter. However, I should remind the Committee that overall price stability does connote some price reductions. The reason is, of course, that some prices inevitably go up. The classic example cited by the professional economist is the price of a haircut, and I must admit that I have always resented the assumption that "barbers" do not increase their productivity. As I have said, some prices inevitably increase and it follows that others must go down if the general price level is to stay where it is.
  Throughout the debate so far, almost every hon. Member of the Opposition has referred to the position of old-age pensioners. There is, however, one point which seems to have been overlooked. It is quite wrong to assume, as some hon. Members seem to have done, that Budget time is the normal time for changing the rate of the retirement pension. I must admit that I have found it a little hard to believe that hon. Members opposite are really speaking from the heart when they pretend to plead on behalf of the old-age pensioners. They did it at the last election, but, of course, the old-age pensioners saw through it. What matters to the pensioner is not promises, but performance.
  Mr. H. Wilson: Let us have some.
  Mr. Barber: The right hon. Gentleman, a moment ago, said, "Here we come to 1066 again "and then says, "Let us have some." I will give him only one figure which is the one figure which means more to the old-age pensioner than all the spurious indignation and empty promises of the Labour Party. That is that the real value of the pension today

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  —what it will buy—is 25 per cent. higher than it was when the Labour Government left office.
  Mr. Wilson: If the hon. Gentleman looks at the figure, he will see that the real value of the pension today is 14 per cent. higher than it was in 1946. Will he tell us how much the national income has gone up since those days, and will he tell us whether he thinks that the old-age pensioners are getting a fair share of the increased national income? The national income rose last year by £2,000 million. Why have not the pensioners had anything of that?
  Mr. Barber: The fact is that at one moment the right hon. Gentleman criticises me for going back to what happened under the Labour Government and the next moment he refers to 1946. All that I can say to him is that the old-age pensioners know perfectly well what happened, or, rather, what did not happen, year after year under the Labour Government. They know what has happened under a Conservative Government and they gave their verdict very clearly at the last election. We have pledged ourselves to give the pensioner a share in our increasing prosperity and that is a pledge which will certainly be honoured—[HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] We honoured it in the past. Hon. Members opposite may cry out "When?". At election times and all other times we did not go round the country making specific promises, bribes, merely to try to encourage the old-age pensioners to vote for us. There has not been any arguing about what the old-age pensioners think about this. They gave their answer clearly last October.
  Mr. Norman Dodds: When the hon. Gentleman says that they do not go round the country making specific promises, is it not a fact that at the election and since the election there have been vague promises by the Prime Minister? Now we are asking when is something to be done. That is what the old-age pensioners are asking.
  Mr. Barber: The answer to the hon. Gentleman is that we are not prepared, either at election time or other times, merely to say when we shall do some-
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  thing. We have done it in the past and in the future we shall continue to honour our pledges. One thing which is absolutely certain is that if we had to return to the sort of inflation which bedevilled this country in the years after 1946, to which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton referred, there would be precious little prosperity in which the pensioners could share. [An HON. MEMBER: "We shall be bankrupt."] We were very nearly bankrupt in 1951.
  Mr. H. Wilson: Talking about 1951, will the hon. Gentleman state what the gold reserves were in October, 1951, and what they are today?
  Mr. Barber: No. If the right hon. Gentleman has the figures I will allow him to intervene and give them to me, and then I will comment on them.
  Mr. Wilson: In 1951, speaking from memory, they were 3,300 million dollars and at present, measured in dollars, they are under 3,000 million.
  Mr. Barber: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will also remember that if they continued to flow out as they were doing at the time that the Labour Party scuttled from office we would have been bankrupt in eight or ten months.
  I want to be fair to the right hon. Gentleman. On this question of old-age pensioners, we all know that the Labour Government would have liked to do more for the old-age pensioners, but the fact was that in the circumstances of that time, which was to a great extent of their own making, they found that they could not afford it. [An HON. MEMBER: "After the war."] It was not immediately after the war, it was six years after the war, and the consequence was that the position of pensioners got steadily worse. In the classic words of the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Cross-man), under the Labour Government they were cheated of what they had been promised.
  Yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton said that at the last election—and I quote his words:
  "… the whole election was fought on the principle of free for all, grab all you can, never mind those who have not a dinghy."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 221.]

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  If we had continued to allow the real purchasing power of the retirement pension to fall, as it did under the Socialists, the old-age pensioner would have by now been sunk without trace. The one sure way of helping all those who live on small incomes is to maintain price stability. If the result last October proved one thing, it proved that the old-age pensioner knows which party is likely to treat him best.
  Yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman asked whether something could be said about commercial prospects in Europe. The Committee will remember that on 1st July next the first tariff reduction of 20 per cent. is due under the Stockholm Convention. On the same date, the six Common Market countries will make the second reduction of 10 per cent. in their internal tariffs, and, if the Treaty of Rome is accelerated, this reduction will become 20 per cent. and the first step will be taken towards the common external tariff. The situation which will arise on 1st July was the main subject of discussion. It arose at a meeting of the Trade Committee of the 20 Governments which took place in Paris on 29th and 30th March.
  At that meeting, representatives of the European Free Trade Association took the initiative in putting forward the proposal, for avoiding discrimination for eighteen months, that emerged from the meeting of Ministers of the Seven at Vienna in the middle of March—that is to say, that the Governments of the Seven would be prepared to discuss extending, on 1st July, to the Six and other countries, in accordance with the principles of G.A.T.T., the tariff cuts that they are due to make by that date, to the extent that the Six are prepared to act on a reciprocal basis.
  I cannot tell the right hon. Gentleman very much today, for the simple reason that no decision was taken on this proposal or any other proposals, because the Six were not ready with their own collective views. We must await the reactions of the Six—the Common Market countries—and hope that they will reveal them to us at the next Trade Committee meeting in May.
  Apart from the trade problems of Europe I have spoken so far primarily of the economic situation at home, but this is inextricably linked with the strength of
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  sterling abroad. Nobody would deny that injustice would result to many sections of our people if inflation returned, but it is equally important to accept the fact that if there were the merest suspicion that the British Government were not prepared to maintain the strength of sterling by all the means at their disposal our international credit would be gone. For some countries, that would not matter very much, but, as all hon. Members know, because of what we sacrificed between 1939 and 1945, our overseas position will be difficult for many years to come.
  The important point to make is that there is nothing precarious about our balance of payments if—but only if—we are prepared to take action in time. One of the factors is the extent of the aid which we provide for overseas development. It is already very large, and it is bound to rise. Our responsibility to meet this need is accepted by everybody in the Committee, but we shall not be able to do so unless our overseas earnings rise sufficiently to pay for it.
  I do not want to go into details, because a White Paper was recently published by the Government on this very matter, but I would remind the Committee that in 1959 our net long-term capital investment overseas approached £300 million. This was apart from some special transactions, such as the additional subscription of £232 million to the International Monetary Fund. The greater part of the outflow was private investment but Government transactions accounted for £90 million over half of which represented new lending, mainly to less developed countries of the Commonwealth.
  As well as these Government loans, grants are being made at the rate of about £50 million a year. We must ensure that our earnings rise sufficiently to pay for this aid, and one inevitable consequence is some sacrifice in consumption at home. Not only do our exports have to pay for overseas aid, but they also have to pay for the increased imports which are attracted by our expanding economy.
  Finally, this is not a standstill Budget. The aim is most emphatically not to halt the expansion of production or investment, nor is it to halt the rising standard of living. The purpose of the Budget is to ensure that our economy continues to

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  expand and at a pace that will not jeopardise price stability. At home, the one thing which the British people want from this Government is the maintenance of the inestimable boon of stable prices. In politics, it is always easy to advocate what is popular, but it is better to do what is right.
  4.44 p.m.
  Mr. G. R. Mitchison: The Economic Secretary to the Treasury made one sensible remark. He recognised that, as a result of the war, the overseas position of sterling will be difficult for many years to come. For most of the rest of his speech he was engaged in defending his deficiencies today by pointing to what he thought were somebody else's deficiencies at any period in the past ranging from eight years ago upwards. It is not the way to commend one's own intelligence and one's own policy to find nothing better to say for it than that someone else did something wrong many years ago. If it cannot stand on its merits it is better not to make quite as much fuss about what one thinks or does not think other people may or may not have done. I hope that the hon. Member will learn that lesson in time.
  The hon. Member was good enough to say that when hon. Members on this side of the Committee made remarks about pensioners we did not mean them. We do. I am an oldish person, and I see the plight of the old people whom I meet in my constituency, as do other hon. Members on both sides of the Committee. I would think it quite wrong to say that hon. Members opposite did not feel sincerely about the plight of the pensioners. I feel just the same when the hon. Member takes this opportunity to impugn the sincerity of my hon. Friends on this matter.
  We have heard some very grandiloquent defences of what is, after all, a very insignificant Budget. It is notable not for what is in it but for what is not in it. What does it do? That pigeon-that volatile bird which has flown out of HANSARD—must have arrived just when the right hon. Gentleman was thinking, "What on earth can I put into the Budget?" The pigeon laid its egg and said to him, "Come, brother, try hard. You will be laying an egg too if
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  you go on long enough." The right hon. Gentleman duly laid his egg.
  Let us look at it and see what it does in the coming year. It raises £39 million by way of extra tax on tobacco. That is the only tax of any importance which will take effect in the coming year. Profits Tax, in its first year, will yield only £1 million. Against that £39 million and £1 million we have concessions amounting to £27 million. The result is that in order to consolidate and fortify our present prosperity—I like the Chancellor's phrase; it really means "to check the boom and to have cheaper port", but he likes to put it in his own way—£13 million is required.
  We do not stop people getting lung cancer by putting taxes on tobacco. The effect of that action may be, as it has been in the past, to cut down consumption for a short time, but ultimately it does not reduce the rate of consumption. My objection to the tax is twofold. First, it is a regressive tax. It comes down much more hardly on the poorer people than on the wealthy. Because it is a regressive tax, to the extent that it is intended to be disinflationary I can think of many other taxes which could be better increased for the purpose.
  One suitable action would be to deal with Profits Tax as it used to be dealt with; that is to say, to impose a higher rate for profits that were distributed than for profits that were retained. But that wil not happen this year. The increased tax will bring in £40 million next year, and £65 million in the following year. They are not inconsiderable figures, but they will have no effect in dealing with the situation in the coming year, except to the extent that they constitute an intimation to the business world that something or other may be coming next year. The only effective thing for this purpose was the Chancellor's mysterious warning. It is like the Delphic oracle or the Cumaean sibyl.
  This is what he said:
  "I must tell the Committee that I think it likely that the time may soon arrive when it would be right that we should take other steps to restrain further expansion of private credit; and we stand ready to do so."—(OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 46.]
  I emphasise the words "may soon arrive". I can understand a statement of that sort if one means to carry it into

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  effect fairly soon, but I doubt whether it is the right or effective way to deal with a boom that has got a little bit out of hand to say, "I am going to do something very horrible", and to leave it as it were sitting there as a threat month after month.
  I do not know if anyone will tell us what the Chancellor is going to do. No doubt he will have read the Radcliffe Committee Report with the care which that Report deserves. He will have seen that a number of attempts that were made by the Government in the past to deal with booms by monetary measures did not have the effect that those who made them intended they should have. They were, in fact, an indiscriminate form of dealing with difficulties. They were blunt instruments, and the Radcliffe Committee had other suggestions which I will not go into now.
  I do not see why the Committee should not be told what the Government propose to do. If, for reasons of distrust of the City or something of that sort, the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends feel that they cannot tell us, let them do whatever they are going to do with reasonable dispatch, and let them choose the right steps this time. I wonder what the Chancellor intends to get at in this way. Will he check lending? Will he deal with the banks by special deposits? Will he have what has sometimes been called a mandatory liquidity ratio, which is another way of dealing with them, or has he some specific steps in mind which would directly affect the consumer? Does he, for instance, intend to do anything about hire purchase? I do not know, nor does anybody else. It seems to me wrong that a threat of that sort should be made, at any rate if it is to subsist for any time without any indication of the sort of thing he intends to do.
  Returning for a moment to the Budget, I noticed some omissions. First, the perfectly obvious one of the old-age pensioners. I will not say much more about that because it has been dwelt on by my right hon. and hon. Friends, and will be dwelt on again, but there is no doubt that unless and until something is done about it the Government will have failed to carry out a very
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  definite election pledge. The pledge given was:
  "We pledge ourselves to ensure that pensioners continue to share in the good things which our steadily expanding economy will bring."
  The pensioners have not had a share of what was an expanding economy for some people last year.
  The Economic Secretary spoke today about increases in wages. The Economic Survey shows that increases in wages were of the order of 4 per cent. to 5 per cent. for the year while dividends on ordinary and preference shares of companies, as against 1958, rose by 13 per cent. and share prices rose by between 40 per cent. to 50 per cent. That is where the real increase has taken place. If there is a boom which is getting out of hand at the moment, it has nothing to do with increases in wages, and it will not be restrained, promoted, or affected if profits on that sort of scale lead to wage claims, and the wage claims are met. Those are the outstanding difficulties, and that is where, as I see it, the boom originated, and where the boom continues at the moment.
  There is one small sign of it in the figures that we have been given in connection with the Budget. I dare say hon. Members noticed that last year Stamp Duty rose by nearly half as much what it was the year before. I am certain that the majority of that increase was due to speculations on the Stock Exchange, and, so far as it was not due to that, it may have been due to speculations in land. It is, however, the former source that I regard as far more likely, and when one gets an increase from £65 million to £97 million in the Stamp Duty one gets confirmation of what has been happening.
  I take that point because that represents one place where the money should have gone. But what money? One of the things that the right hon. Gentleman did was to reduce the duty on wines. I am taking that as an instance because it is the largest of the actual reductions this year and is, at any rate, a fairly substantial one amounting to £3¾ million this year and £4 million in the coming year. Those are the figures which the right hon. Gentleman gave.
  I suggest that there were one or two much better ways in which that money

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  could have been spent. Let us consider one of them to begin with. In 1955 and 1956 the general needs housing subsidy was taken away. The result is that council housing has fallen sharply ever since, and when one looks at the figures in the Economic Survey one finds that clearly set out. On page 18 of the survey we read:
  "The increase in both public and private investment expenditure was heavily concentrated on building, particularly house building. From 1958 to 1959 total investment increased by £138 million (at 1954 prices) made up of increases of £68 million in expenditure on housebuilding, £63 million on other new building and only £7 million on plant, machinery and vehicles."
  That is a small proportion indeed for an industrial country, but let us see what the £68 million expenditure on house building consisted of.
  For that purpose one has to look both at council housing and private housing. Since 1955, when the reduction and final elimination of the ordinary general needs housing subsidy began, council house expenditure, still at 1954 prices, has fallen from £338 million to £241 million, and almost the exact opposite has happened to private housing, which has risen from £241 million to £335 million. If one looks at what has been happening more recently, in the last year there has been a continued sharp rise in private housing and hardly any rise in council house building. The position was that during last year, when house building represented the largest form of investment, only about 18,000 houses were built for general need.
  Does the Committee think it right to take the duty off port, champagne, and other things, and to restrict council housing in this way because of the elimination of the general needs subsidy? What is happening is that the port and champagne drinker—and I will come to that in a minute—is getting his drink cheaper but throughout the country there are young couples who cannot afford to buy a house of their own and are unable to get council houses because council houses are just not being built for general needs.
  What about the amount? If the £3¾ million which has gone into the pockets of the wine trade or the port and champagne drinkers had been applied to
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  council house building, enough houses would then have been subsidised to come up to the 1955 standard of building. At that time, nearly 200,000 council houses were being built. Without going into the figures in detail, that figure could have been attained by proper application of subsidies again last year if the money had been directed to that purpose instead of being used for cheapening port and champagne.
  I fail to understand the social conscience of the party opposite if, when they have this amount of money to remit, they use it for that purpose instead of using it to allow more council houses to be built. The people who suffer from this policy are not the occupants of slum houses, who already receive a subsidy, nor the old folk, but the young people up and down the country who are trying to get a house but cannot afford to buy one of their own.
  The best evidence about all this is the size of the housing demand. About one in five people are on housing lists at present. It is sufficient to say that a substantial proportion of them are urgent cases. Hon. Members opposite sit there talking about stabilising the economy, the pigeon and the egg, and heaven knows what, but all the time the best they can do for the country is to cheapen port and champagne and to continue to deny council houses to young people who want them. It is a monstrous conclusion.
  I turn from that to a rather broader approach to what is really the same question. Local authorities are concerned not only with housing but with education and with a variety of other services. Housing is the most expensive from their point of view. Education is the next most expensive. They are all services of the greatest importance. For many of their services, including housing, local authorities have to borrow. It is easy to see what they have to borrow. In 1956, they borrowed net about £395 million, and in 1958, which is the latest available figure, they borrowed £370 million.
  It will not have escaped the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or of any other hon. Gentleman opposite who takes the trouble to listen, that 1

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  per cent. of that would have almost exactly equalled the port and champagne reduction. If instead of cheapening port and champagne the right hon. Gentleman had applied himself to cheapening the rate at which councils have to borrow for their purposes, they would have got 1 per cent. off in place of the cheaper port and champagne.
  One per cent. makes a lot of difference. It is about 7s. a week on a council house. If any hon. Member troubles to work it out in terms of borrowing the usual 60 years loan at the present Public Works Loan Board rate, he will find that it is very nearly £700 on the cost of a house to a council. That particular tax, which is not at all a large one, could have been far better used either for the specific purpose of restoring the general needs subsidy on council houses or for cheapening the rate at which councils have to borrow for the purpose of the public services they render.
  I turn now to the remission in question, because it leads me to some other matters. I expected the President of the Board of Trade to tell us yesterday not only why the tax had been remitted to that extent but also a little more about the position between the Common Market Six and the Outer Seven. I did so, because there is remarkably little in the Economic Survey about it. We have heard a few words today, to which I will turn later. When the President of the Board of Trade was asked, "What about port?". which, after all, was the one thing which appeared to be his concern and raised some matters with which he has been prominently identified, he said that his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had told us about that already.
  Let us now look at what the Chancellor said:
  "I have now certain changes to propose in the wine duties. During the negotiations which led up to the signature of the Convention of the European Free Trade Association, the Portuguese representatives emphasised their great concern about the level of duties on heavy wines".
  The right hon. Gentleman said that he had said that he could not do anything because it was a Budgetary matter. He continued:
  "As it happened, there were other, purely domestic reasons which made it desirable to adjust these duties".
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  Let us go on to see what the domestic reasons were. The right hon. Gentleman talked about the structure of wine duties and bringing heavy wines into a better relation with the light wines. He said:
  "The duties on heavy wines are still out of line to some extent and the position is unsatisfactory…. I now propose to complete this reform of the wine duty structure by reducing the rates for imported heavy wines by 12s. a gallon. This is not a reduction that I would have chosen to make on this particular occasion were it not for the trade reasons I have mentioned".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 53.]
  Therefore, money which could have been used and would have been sufficient to restore the general needs housing subsidy all over the country, or to lower by 1 per cent. the rate of borrowing by local authorities, has been used for trade reasons. The trade reasons appear to be a somewhat academic perfection of the structure of taxation on the wine industry, bringing the rates for heavy wines into a better relation than those for light wines. If that is the best that the right hon. Gentleman can do by way of an explanation. I do not think much of it.
  Portugal hardly comes into this. No doubt some of the reduction will go to cheapen port, but it appears from the import figures that it will go to another purpose, too. The figure for sparkling wine, most of which will be French champagne, is considerably higher than the port figure. Therefore, I do not understand it. I fail to see how anyone with any social conscience could at this moment take this action and fail to do anything whatever for pensioners, for housing, for local authorities, or for a number of other purposes which I should have 'thought would have appealed even to right hon. and hon. Members opposite. This Budget is a remarkably small affair and has these glaring omissions in it.
  I turn, lastly, to the Stockholm Convention. We have been told very little about this. Page 6 of the Economic Convention contains a passage about it which was repeated by the Economic Secretary today. It is clear that one of the greatest commercial risks which this country runs at present is the possibility that the Seven and the Six will not agree and that we shall be faced with a limited but still quite definite trade war between one half of Western Europe and the other. That should be considered in a Budget and should provide ground for

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  an explanation by the right hon. Gentleman, who is the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the moment.
  Did not the pigeon tell him anything about this? This matter cannot be left quite in that way. The right hon. Gentleman is supposed to be looking into the future. The increased rate of Profits Tax will operate fully only a couple of years ahead, not this year, nor the year after. What will have happened to the Stockholm Convention by then? What will be the state of the trade of Europe? Will there be a trade war? Has the night hon. Gentleman any views about it? Have the Government any views about it?
  They remind me of Mark Twain's "Innocents Abroad". He wrote about a traveller who kept a diary. He was asked what he put into it. He said so and-so and so-and-so. They asked him, "What about France?" That is this question. The answer was, "Oh, I left out France". That is what has happened on this occasion. The President of the Board of Trade, who is one of the principal "innocents abroad" in this matter, said not a word about it. Instead of telling us about what was his concern, he did his usual knockabout turn on Budget day. It is great fun. I have heard it year after year, and it thrills me every time, but I would have liked to have heard something about the possibilities of Europe's future trading.
  This Budget has not much in it. There is little in it, and so far as it has anything it introduces one regressive tax that is consonant with Tory policy but not with social justice; cheapens port, champagne and the rest, and omits to spend even that small sum of money for perfectly obvious social purposes that I should have thought would have appealed to the party opposite at any time except just after an election.
  5.10 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: I should like to comment briefly on the scene that presents itself. I listened, as I always do, with interest to the closely-reasoned arguments of the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison). I rather agreed with him— to start on a very uncontroversial note —one one point, and that is the doubtful value of unspecified threats to credit.
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  I say this not with some rebuke to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. To tell the truth, all of us have used unspecified threats to credit and made appeals at some time or other in our lives. But my experience is that they are of very little use and that unspecified threats can sometimes do a deal of harm, because they are misunderstood in many quarters. Having said that, I know that the hon. and learned Gentleman will forgive me if I do not follow the rest of his argument.
  Mr. Mitchison: Certainly.
  Mr. Thorneycroft: I shall not this afternoon address my remarks, Commander Donaldson, even through you, to the Opposition. I hope that they will not take it amiss, but I can hardly regard the party opposite in financial matters as an opposition to Her Majesty's Government. I want to address my remarks to the Treasury Front Bench and to say a few words affecting them. If I should happen to say anything at all critical of that Front Bench, I hope that hon. and right hon. Members opposite will take it, double it and apply it to themselves because, heaven knows, if my right hon. Friends take any risk with regard to inflation, right hon. Gentlemen opposite would be quite reckless on that subject.
  My purpose is not to criticise the detailed proposals of this Budget. I do not share the view that in the situation in which my right hon. Friend finds himself, or has been left by his colleagues— put it how one will—he has room to reduce taxation. I do not hold with that. I do not believe that he is a man who is prepared to ignore the situation in which he finds himself. I think that he has enough courage and common sense—and all those who know him will share that opinion—to take the position as it is and try to do the best with it. I want to talk about the policies that led him into that position; that have, if I may say so, led this country to that position in the past, and that will, I believe undoubtedly lead it to that position in the future unless something is done about it.
  First, let me say a word about the background. We have had two years of considerable prosperity, described in glowing terms by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; investments, incomes, consumption, production, wages, profits, savings, revenue, exports—all of them

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  up, and all of them up with stable prices. That is a very satisfactory picture, and I think that everyone can claim a share in it—the technicians, the workers, the managers, the boards, my right hon. Friend himself: even, perhaps a little low on the list, those whose measures two years ago did something to re-establish faith in sterling may claim a modicum of credit.
  How come, that after two such years we should reach the point where taxes have to be raised and vague threats of further restrictive measures have to be held out? Nobody who listened to my right hon. Friend could have had any doubts as to the gravity with which he viewed the situation. Indeed, it is all painfully familiar to all of us on both sides of the Committee, with demand tending to outrun resources, with the balance-of-payments situation incapable of sustaining, even at the existing rate— let alone an increased one—our investment overseas.
  My right hon. Friend the Chancellor really declared his hand on this situation some weeks ago, with the Bank Rate put up, with the Governor stating publicly that equities were overpriced, with the Government spokesman in another place—who bears the title in private life of Hereditary Standard Bearer of Scotland—saying that gilt-edged were overpriced, and with the Government broker stepping out of the gilt-edged market. With all those things going on, I cannot think that anyone applying his mind to the subject could have expected an easy Budget from my right hon. Friend.
  The Chancellor's view, the view of the so-called authorities, was plainly that they were faced with an emergent crisis and they thought that this time it would be better to act soon rather than to act late, and I say that they were right in that judgment. The only thing is that that action, action in this Budget to the extent of imposing additional taxation this year of some £40 million, might have been matched by some reduction in the increased expenditure of £350 million on a Budget of £6,000 million. It must have been a grave disappointment to my right hon. Friend that he was unable to persuade his colleagues on something that he must have pressed with the greatest urgency upon them.
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  The question that we should discuss, therefore, is how we get to this position, and how we should avoid it in the future. Have we really got it so good that we can never hope for effective and consistent lowering of taxes without running into another crisis? The history of the last ten years under any Government, and I make no difference between any of them, certainly prompts that question and entitles all of us on both sides of the House to demand an answer.
  It seems to me that there are two views that the Government can put. They can say that they are the creatures of circumstances; that this situation swept suddenly and unexpectedly on them; that they discovered half way through the year that imports were coming in a bit too fast. Some official comes in and says that the figures—like the shipping figures—are a little unfortunate. That is a possible approach—strong men battling against undeserved adversity.
  On the other hand, they can say that they are the architects of the situation; that they are rather proud of it; that they like it; that this rather drab Budget and these threats of restriction are the price we pay for continuing expansion. The Chancellor leant rather to the first approach, the President of the Board of Trade rather to the second; but I should like to put my own view. Here, may I say that I recognise the truth of what the Economic Secretary said in a very able speech today, which is that what happens in this economy is decided by thousands of individual decisions, about when to invest, when to stop, when to save and when to spend. But what all these people do, and above all when they do it, depends to a very large extent upon what the Government do themselves—how much they borrow, how much they tax, how much they spend.
  Last year we budgeted for a deficit of over £700 million. We planned to spend a great deal more money. We plan to spend a great deal more money this year. We are embarking upon a round of wage increases backed by demands for a shorter working week and, at the same time under the pressure of demand, competition for labour in the factories is driving up current earnings. And we are doing all this at a time, as the Economic Secretary has said, when it is unlikely that production will go on increasing at the same pace as it did last year.

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  Against that background, one does not have to look very far to see the origins of the present situation or the necessity of the present Budget. I recognise—I think that I recognise as well as most —the pressures on the Government to spend for defence, a noble cause, though one sometimes wonders whether we are all that safer for spending an extra £100 million, to spend for roads, always popular, and if for roads then for railways—true they may run parallel with the roads—and another £1,000 million is planned for investment in them.
  Then there is the Health Service, though the less said about the finance spent on the Health Service the better. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] For the sake of brevity at least. Then there is education. I think that the cry is now "Education at any cost". Then there is the Welfare State, peculiarly designed for the early years of the present century; indeed, directly attuned to the situation of widespread unemployment and poverty which was endured during those years—but any reflection upon that is regarded in certain circles as a dirty word.
  In any event, for some years these emergent and growing claims have been irresistible to the Government. During the last five years of Conservative Government spending has gone up by something like £1,000 million. Naturally, during part of that time and largely under the pressure of this spending the value of the £ has been going down, and this year against a background of stable prices a planned increase of £350 million is contemplated.
  All these objectives of expenditure are no doubt, in a sense, as the President of the Board of Trade said the other day, justifiable, all of them are desirable, but the truth is that we must either pay for them or give some of them up. It is the attempt to get them for nothing or to try to get them at something below their real cost that has driven this country inexorably over the years from one crisis to another.
  Nothing is more boring in a speech than personal reminiscence, but may I just remind the House that two years ago I did leave the Government? At that time the public relations of the Government found it convenient to spread the story that I
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  had left for what they called "a mere £50 million." I observe that today, in conditions of incipient inflation, the sum has risen to £500 million. But the truth is that I did not part with my hon. and right hon. Friends on figures; I parted with them on principle.
  I held the view then—I still hold it. and may I say to the House quite frankly that I admit it to be a minority view, though I still feel that I am entitled to put it—that the interests of the economy as a whole should be put above the interests of the individual spending Departments. I hold the view that the avoidance of the risks of inflation, or the defence of the £ as it is sometimes called, should not only be stated to be a priority but that we should act as if it were a priority.
  I hold the view that the Government have spent, are spending and are certainly planning to spend a great deal too much money. As I understand the Government, they appear to hold a slightly different view from this. They will, I think, tell the House if they are pressed that what they spend is, after all, the consequence of policies approved by the House of Commons, pressed on them by the Opposition, pressed on them sometimes by the Conservatives, that the increases are inevitable, that costs have gone up, or that wages have gone up, or that the value of money has gone down, but that any way they are keeping employment high and that if they eased spending it might risk employment falling in some areas.
  These are different approaches. They are honourable views on both sides of the House, but I think that they are views which in all honour ought to be expressed freely and openly in the House of Commons and in this Committee, because much of our future may turn on the choice between them.
  What advice, then, would I offer to my hon. and right hon. Friends? What I have to say I do not pretend is popular, but I would like to say it. First, in their central financial policy, I would ask them to keep their eyes fixed not on the development areas but on the country as a whole where the unemployment figure is dipping below 2 per cent. Spend by all means—this is not always agreed—in the development areas, with special aids to Scotland or elsewhere,

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  but do not try to run the whole country as though it were a declining coal mine somewhere in South Wales, because if we do that it will soon become like a declining coal mine in South Wales.
  Secondly, give an assurance now that in about the most highly taxed country in the world tax reduction forms an important part of Government policy, and not only that it forms a part but that it is the determination of the Government to include the taxpayers in a high place as claimants in the future. Thirdly, let us have a little more frank speaking about what the Government intend to spend. If the existing policies mean increased spending this year, next year and in the years to come, then much better say so.
  At this very moment orders are going out from the Ministry of Defence for new weapons and matters of that kind. It is impossible for back benchers to have detailed information on these matters, but I think that it would be right for the prospects of future expenditure to be outlined very freely and frankly to us by the Government. They must have some idea of what these expenditures would look like on the basis of existing policies, leave aside flying saucers in the Ministry of Transport or the awful thought that space travel might enter into the head of the Minister of Science. On the basis of existing policies, what would this expenditure look like?
  That would represent one line, a steeply rising one, upon a graph. They could make some assessment on what real production is likely to be in the future. Have they thought whether these policies and prospects clash or not? Do the lines on the graph cross? Is there, in fact, a gap between them which would permit of tax relief in the future; which would leave enough room for us to carry out our responsibilities as a principal investor in the British Commonwealth? I believe that the Government must accept responsibility for these matters and that unless and until both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor are prepared to plan the country's spending and to set some limits to it these things will continue to cripple us, with all the side effects on the rest of the economy which we know so well.
  It so happens that we cannot run an economy of this kind unless at regular
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  intervals we are able to borrow very large sums of money from the British public. We cannot borrow that money unless the public has confidence in the British Government. If once the suspicion gains a hold that inflation is regarded as something which is tolerable or, at any rate, the avoidance of it is put not as a first priority in high quarters in the British Government, they could lose that confidence, and perhaps lose it for a very long time. I say this with all urgency to my right hon. Friend; he is much nearer to that point than he should be for comfort at the present time.
  These are, at any rate, my opinions. I ask my right hon. Friend to realise that though they are minority opinions they are held by other people in this country. There are those who would prefer to out our coat according to our cloth; to ask for rather less or pay something a little nearer to the cost of it; to live honestly up to our overseas obligations; to avoid the intermittent crises from one year to another; to see the Government themselves take the advice which they offer to others in exercising some modicum of restraint. But the leadership, the suggestions for saving, the limits on spending, cannot come from back-bench Members in the House of Commons; they can come only from the right hon. Gentleman himself.
  5.33 p.m.
  Mr. Anthony Crosland: We can congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) at least on one thing, on having made a speech which was very much more relevant to the problems confronting us than either of the two speeches from the Front Bench to which we listened today or yesterday. There was one point about which I would disagree with the right hon. Gentleman, when he said that his views represented the views of a minority of hon. Members on the benches opposite. Judging by the applause, they represent a clear majority and the Chancellor and his colleagues are faced with an extremely powerful revolt against them.
  I think, however, that there appears to be a division in the revolt. Whereas yesterday the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) wanted a reduction in no fewer than five major taxes, the right hon. Member for Monmouth

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  today said that he wanted no tax reductions of any kind. Clearly, there is not merely a gap between the Front Bench and the back benches opposite, but a gap within the rebel ranks also.
  Today we heard a speech from the right hon. Member for Monmouth very much on the lines of speeches which he has made here and elsewhere in the past. I agree profoundly with him on one point but I disagree profoundly with his remedy. I think he is absolutely right to point out the painful dilemma in which we find ourselves in this country that, whenever we have one single year of expansion, the price we pay for having a good year is that we have to have cuts next year. This has gone on for ten years. In order not to make a party point, if he wishes, I will say that it has gone on under Governments of either party.
  Coming to the question of what we are to do about this, I believe that the solution offered by the right hon. Gentleman is profoundly wrong, profoundly pessimistic, and consists of giving up the whole problem in advance. There are two ways in which we can deal with it. One is the way which the right hon. Gentleman wants, the pessimistic, gloomy way of saying, in effect, that the problem is beyond us and that all we can do is to cut, cut, cut away at expenditure. The other way to approach the problem, which I believe is the right way to deal with it, is not to restrict but, on the contrary, to increase productive capacity to cope with all the demands which are made.
  It is worth thinking of the implications of the kind of policy which the right hon. Member for Monmouth is urging upon us. He talks about public expenditure. Most hon. Members on the other side of the Committee treat public expenditure as such an emotional concept, as such a dirty word, that they cease to discuss it in a rational manner, and the discussion has an emotional, religious tone about it. But let us consider what in fact would be the consequences to the country if we adopted what is in effect the desire of the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster and many other hon. Members opposite, which is to nag and nag away at public expenditure
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  the whole time and try to reduce it at any rate as a proportion of our total income.
  There is one point I wish to make in advance. It is not generally realised in the complaints which are made about public expenditure that in fact the spending by the Government and local authorities combined has been falling as a proportion of the national income for most of the way through the 1950s. Of course, it was implicit in the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman, it was implicit in the leading articles in The Times, and in the Economist during the last few weeks, that this is a wholly desirable thing to occur, that public expenditure should decline as a proportion of the national income.
  But what sort of country shall we be living if this occurs? I feel that I am living in a completely different world from that of the right hon. Gentleman when he talks in this emotional manner about public expenditure. I do not know what sort of constituency he represents. I think that in some ways I represent a typical constituency. If he came to my constituency he would find that we have not had a new hospital built for forty years. For fifty years we have been waiting for six miles of direct road to connect us with an industrial area a few miles away. A few weeks ago we sent a deputation to the Ministry of Transport but we were told that we could not have the money because of the restriction on public expenditure.
  We need a great deal more money spent on schools. Some hon. Members represent constituencies where conditions are much worse than in Grimsby, but there we still have slum areas where people live in degrading conditions without proper toilet facilities, and the waiting list for houses is as long as it was a few years ago because of the restriction on public expenditure. This is the consequence of always trying to drag public expenditure down as a proportion of the national income.
  What does that mean for the country as a whole? It means that all the people depending on the social services, whether old-age pensioners, widows or whoever they are, find their incomes are declining compared with the incomes of the rest of the community. It means that people employed in the public sector—railway-men, the police, teachers, doctors, dentists—find that their incomes are

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  declining compared with those of the rest of the community. It means that public investment in basic industries is lagging behind investment in the private sector. It means that the road system is growing less and less adequate to meet the mounting volume of traffic put upon it. It means that standards of health and education are consistently falling behind rising incomes as a whole.
  Is this really the sort of Britain which the right hon. Gentleman wants to see? Is it the sort of Britain which hon. Gentlemen opposite want to see? Is this really their order of priorities? It means a growing unbalance between the social capital in this country and our private capital. It means a growing unbalance between the incomes of those who depend on the public sector and the incomes of those who depend on the private sector.
  Of course, nobody on either side of the Committee wants an indefinite, reckless, uncontrolled increase in public expenditure, but I very much hope that the Chancellor and his colleagues will resist with the utmost firmness accepting the ideal of a large number of the Tory back benchers that it is always an ultimate object of public policy to drive down public expenditure as a proportion of the national income. We would live in a really restricted, hideous, monstrous Britain if that policy were carried out.
  I turn to the question of the general state of the economy, and here I should like to come back to one or two of the things the right hon. Member said. First, I wish to congratulate the Chancellor on a small point. I was out of the House for five years, but I read the Budget statements. I congratulate him on making the most lucid, intelligible Budget speech we have had for many years and on producing much the most informative Economic Survey we have had for many years past. We had a great deal less mumbo-jumbo in the Budget statement this time than in those of many Chancellors including, I regret to say, the right hon. Member for Monmouth.
  This lack of mumbo-jumbo, this appeal to economic reason in the Chancellor's speech was, no doubt, one of the reasons why it was so ill-received on the benches opposite. As to the general bias of his Budget, I have a great deal of sympathy with what the right hon.
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  Member for Monmouth said. I hope and pray that the Chancellor is right in saying that at the moment we need neither an increase nor a decrease in taxation. I agree entirely with the right hon. Member for Monmouth that it would have been utterly reckless to have had a "give-away" Budget, as the phrase is.
  I tend to feel that the Chancellor has taken a slight risk in having only a standstill Budget. He may be right, but I see a certain risk on the basis of his own figures of the likely increase in demand and the likely increase in production this year. He may have certain reasons for optimism which an outsider, certainly an Opposition back bencher, cannot know. But I fear he is taking a risk and making an error which many Conservative Chancellors have made before in the last few years in relying excessively on monetary policy to cure a situation which a fiscal policy is not used to cure.
  He should have been warned by the example of the unhappy fate of the Home Secretary when he was Chancellor in 1955. He had a flabby fiscal policy and thought it would do no harm if he offset it with a tough and stern monetary policy, but he found to his cost, and to the cost of the country, that that was not the case. I very much hope that the Government are not relying too much on monetary policy in order to correct any possible errors in their fiscal policy. At any rate, I hope that the Chancellor is right in his calculation, but I also hope that if he turns out to have been over-optimistic and we run into inflationary conditions towards the end of the year and find an additional strain on the position of sterling, he will not hesitate —even if it means eating his words—to swallow his pride and his vanity and come to the House for additional powers to cure any incipient inflationary situation.
  I want to speak more generally for a few minutes. This is relevant to what the right hon. Member for Monmouth said about the long-term state of the British economy. I have taken the view for many years, and have been criticised on the Left for this view, that the kind of economy we are running now is a perfectly viable one. I think that even under a Conservative Government we shall

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  normally maintain something approaching full employment and I think we shall see quite a significant increase in the standard of living.
  The question is, are we really satisfied with this on either side of the Committee? If we simply look inwards and are content to jog along in Britain without any relation to what is going on in the outside world, well and good, we can be satisfied that we are jogging along all right and that the system is not faced with imminent collapse overnight. If, on the other hand, we set ourselves a more ambitious target and turn our eyes outwards to what is happening in the rest of the world, we cannot be satisfied with the kind of progress we have been making in the last few years.
  Almost all of us, I imagine, want Britain to remain a great Power and to maintain a strong influence in international affairs. In the last analysis, being a great Power depends on economic performance. Our economic performance is not such at the moment that we shall remain a great Power indefinitely if we go on like this. On the contrary, our economic strength is slowly—only very slowly, almost surreptitiously—running away We had a good year in 1959, but no better than other countries. But as the Economic Secretary knows, over the long run our performance has been a really pitiful one by international standards.
  I do not take perhaps the most alarming comparison of all, which was given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson). He mentioned what is happening in Soviet Russia, but I assume that there are certain differences between these two countries that affect such a comparison. I would rather take a comparison between ourselves and continental Europe. Countries there are in a roughly similar state of economic development and there is no reason on earth why they should go forward so much faster than we, and yet they do.
  It does not matter what base year we take for comparison. If we take 1953 up to the last quarter of 1959, we find that production in the United Kingdom increased by 27 per cent., whereas in the Common Market countries it in-
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  creased by 63 per cent.—more than double. From 1955, an alternative base year, in Great Britain the increase was 12 per cent. and in the Common Market countries 34 per cent., almost three times as much. This seems to be a terribly depressing picture.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Is this in the same range of commodities? Could the hon. Member give more details?
  Mr. Crosland: This is a comparison of industrial production in two countries, seasonally adjusted. If the noble Lord would like figures of the gross national product, which embraces all types of production, I can give similar figures. Since 1953 in the Common Market countries, the percentage increase was 29 per cent. and in the United Kingdom it was 11 per cent. Since 1955, in the Common Market countries it was 13 per cent. and in Britain, 4 per cent. Taking the whole national product evens out commodity distribution.
  As a patriot I find these figures emotionally humiliating. Intellectually, I find them extremely disturbing as one who wants Britain's influence in the world to increase and not to decline. In the light of those comparisons with the Common Market, the failure of the President of the Board of Trade, in what was an utterly frivolous speech yesterday, to say anything about the problems of our relations in Europe was, to put it mildly, extraordinary.
  Why is our performance so much poorer year in and year out than that of almost every other industrial country? There are many reasons for this. I should have thought, and probably most hon. Members will agree, that the basic one is that our investment is too low. If we compare investment in this country with that of the Common Market countries, we find that gross fixed capital formation, excluding housing, was 14 per cent. of the gross national product in this country, as against 17 per cent. in the Common Market countries, and in Germany it was just on 20 per cent.
  Here I must say something to the right hon. Member for Monmouth, who is always taking, as it were, a Jeremiah view of the state of the economy. I am not saying this in an unfair spirit, but he takes some credit to himself for

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  having made a great gesture on principle when he resigned. I must point out that he was also partly responsible for weakening our long-term position when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, since it was then that the most recent cuts in investment were made. He has some responsibility for the fact that our underlying economic strength is lower today than it should be.
  If we take the picture over the last few years of Conservative Government, we find it to be about as depressing as it could be. The most depressing figures in the Economic Survey are in Table 6, showing that manufacturing industry was lower in 1959 than in any year since 1955. It was lower than in 1956, 1957 and 1958. It is true that private investment is clue to rise this year but, as Sir Roy Harrod pointed out this morning in the Financial Times, even that rise will bring us only near to the 1957 figure. In other words, in 1960 we shall just about get back to the 1957 level.
  These figures of investment and production, showing how we are falling behind the European countries, the Soviet Union and Japan, have frequently been quoted in the House and elsewhere, and of course the Chancellor and the Economic Secretary—who is to speak tomorrow—pay lip-service to the idea of higher production and higher investment, but the fact remains that—
  Sir Alexander Spearman: Would the hon. Member make a comparison with the United States? Does he not agree that it is fairer to make the comparison with a country such as the United States than with the European countries, which started after the war from a very much lower level of industrial production?
  Mr. Crosland: I do not agree that a comparison with the United States would be in the slightest degree relevant. When we are three times as wealthy as we are now—which America now is— I shall not be worrying nearly as much about industrial investment. If we had achieved the degree of material prosperity which the United States has achieved, I should not worry nearly as much. I believe that the fair comparison is with other European countries which are roughly at the same stage of economic, political and social development as we are in this country.
  Mr. Julian Ridsdale: What is the proportion of civil and Government expenditure in Germany and in other Common Market countries? In particular, what is the defence expenditure in Germany?
  Mr. Crosland: I am afraid that I could not give the figure off hand, but I take the implication of the hon. Member's remark. As far as I know, it has never been suggested that the higher rate of investment in Germany has anything to do with the level of Government expenditure in Britain by comparison with the level of Government expenditure in Germany.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Has my hon. Friend taken into consideration in making these comparisons what proportion of their investment the other European countries spend in defence expenditure as compared with the proportion which we ourselves devote to it? Or does not that matter?
  Mr. Crosland: It varies between the six Common Market countries. For example, France, which has a considerably higher investment expenditure than we have, is certainly spending a much higher proportion of her national income on defence on account of the war in Algeria. However much a reduction in defence expenditure may or may not be desirable on other grounds, it is certainly not a necessary condition for putting up our rate of investment.
  The Conservatives have been in power for nearly ten years. This gap between our investment and production performance and that of the European countries has continued for ten years. I want to ask the Chancellor or the Economic Secretary this question: what do they propose to do about it? Do they take a view of the matter? Have they a clear view or a clear plan of what they propose for the years ahead—not just between now and the next Budget, but looking ahead over the next five years? In other words, are they satisfied to continue with a rate of growth of about 2 per cent. a year in this country when it is almost double in the countries which are our main competitors? Are they satisfied with the ratio of investment to national income, which is very much lower in this country than it is in most of our competitor countries?

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  It is important that once in a while, when we are discussing the Budget, we should not simply discuss a single year but should take a general long-term view of the economy and decide whether we are broadly satisfied with our economic performance and with our investment or whether we should set ourselves a substantially higher target than we have so far achieved. The Chancellor is always regarded as a nautical figure. He spends a lot of time sailing. Probably the admiral he is emulating is the most cautious and unambitious of all admirals —Jellicoe—who fought exactly the way that the Chancellor has done; there was a psychological similarity between them. He thought that he alone could lose the war in a single day. I wish that the Chancellor would emulate some of the more audacious naval figures of the past, such as Howe, Collingwood, Nelson and Jervis, and would begin to take some risks with the future of the economy. I do not mean that he should take risks with inflation but I mean that he should take some risks in order to jerk the economy up to a higher and competitive level of performance.
  What I should like to suggest to the Chancellor and the Government is that they should have one very simple aim. They should set themselves the target of increasing investment as a proportion of the national income by 1 per cent. in each of the next four years, which would mean by the time this Parliament is over we should have raised it to a figure approaching the German figure. I concede at once that if they do that they will make life extremely hard for the Labour Party at the next election, but they will have earned and deserved the gratitude of the country.
  5.55 p.m.
  Mr. Stratton Mills: I would ask on this occasion for the traditional tolerance of the House towards a maiden speech. I apologise to the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) if I do not follow his arguments on this occasion, and I would say generally to hon. Members that if in the course of my brief remarks this afternoon I stray from the path that is normally followed by maiden speakers, that error is entirely one of ignorance rather than of intention.
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  I have the honour to represent in the House the electors of Belfast, North, which is the largest urban constituency in Britain, with an electorate of 75,000. Belfast is a highly industrial city and can be described essentially as a child of the Industrial Revolution. It has vast shipyards, virile aircraft works and a high variety of factories, both in the city and scattered around the suburbs.
  Many hon. Members representing constituencies in England may have tended to forget—it is only too easy—the days in the 1930s when in their constituencies there were many people who had no work. In Northern Ireland 7·5 per cent. of the insured population is unemployed, which remains a disfiguring scar upon our economy. I will return to that point in a moment.
  I should like to tell my right hon. Friend the Chancellor that I welcome the Budget. It is a cautious Budget, but, having looked through the figures over the last few months as we have approached the Budget, with the balance of payments danger looming large on the economic horizon, I feel that very few of us could have had any doubt that this was the Budget to expect. The job with which the Chancellor was faced was that of consolidating expansion and ensuring stable prices.
  It may come as a shock to other hon. Members when I say that from the days when my generation, who were born in the 1930s, started at the age of 14 or 15 reading the newspapers after the war and following current affairs, I cannot recall a single period in which prices were not rising every few months. I do not today blame any party for this. I cannot recall a single period when we were not in the midst of, approaching or just leaving some economic crisis. I do not today blame any party for that. It is, nevertheless, the essential fact which we have to face, and if the Budget contributes to the stability of prices, it must be welcomed.
  I would, however, say to the Chancellor that I hope that the economic sugar plum will not evade us for very long and that we can look forward next year to some form of substantial relief. I would further say that before we meet to deliberate on next year's Budget, I hope that perhaps my right hon. Friend will have been able to give some relief to the old-age pensioners.

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  I noted with particular care the remarks of my right hon. Friend in his Budget statement when he said:
  "First, steps in changing the climate for private lending have already been taken by the increase in Bank Rate in January and in open market transactions. I must tell the Committee that I think it likely that the time may soon arrive when it would be right that we should take other steps to restrain further expansion of private credit, and we stand ready to do so."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 46.]
  What do those remarks mean? Do they mean a higher Bank Rate? Do they mean special deposits? What I fear my right hon. Friend means is that we shall have a new credit squeeze in the very near future and that there is a new economic albatross on the political horizon.
  Without going into the economic merits of the credit squeeze, I feel that there can be little doubt that, in the short term, the recent credit squeeze did a good job and was effective with no tremendous hardship in areas of high employment. But, in areas where there is high unemployment, the effect of the credit squeeze is positively murderous. What happens in an area of high unemployment when there is a credit squeeze? Immediately, there is a fall in public works, a fall in local authority building, a fall in private building, a fall in school building and a fall in factory building. There is a resulting fall in employment in the area. Again, private industry tends to withhold expansion in such an area and there is a loss of potential employment.
  If one accepts the value of the credit squeeze to the British economy, the problem is how to insulate areas of high unemployment from its worst effects. To put it in another way, can an economic fuse box be built using two different types of economic fuse wire?
  There are four main aspects of the credit squeeze. First, there are the restrictions on capital issues. In the recent credit squeeze, the limit beyond which one had to obtain the consent of the Capital Issues Committee was £50,000. In Northern Ireland, we were able to apply a separate limit of £10,000. This in itself proves that, at least in one aspect, the credit squeeze is divisible.
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  Secondly, there is the credit policy of the banks. Professor Isles, in his Economic Survey of Northern Ireland, gives at page 328 a very interesting graph showing that the relationship between bank advances and bank deposits in the period 1935–52 remained more or less the same in Northern Ireland and in Great Britain, although I understand that in the recent credit squeeze—I do not have the figures— Northern Ireland banks were slightly more liberal in their credit policy than their cross-Channel counterparts. With an approaching credit squeeze, I suggest that there is an opportunity here for a more liberal policy to be investigated.
  The third factor in the credit squeeze is the increase in Bank Rate. Is it really beyond the ingenuity of Treasury officials to find a method whereby, in certain areas of high unemployment, there can be a lower Bank Rate for industry?
  Mrs. Eirene White: That is Socialism.
  Mr. Stratton Mills: The fourth factor is the new weapon of special deposits. These have been talked about a great deal in the last few weeks and if this device strikes terror in Throgmorton Street it certainly strikes terror in areas of high unemployment. That, I suggest, is the geographical extent of the problem one has to face. I suggest that we should do well to look at this matter in advance. While I appreciate the technical difficulties, I cannot help wondering whether there is here an opportunity for some kind of departmental study by Treasury experts to see whether there is some way of isolating areas of high unemployment from the more severe social and economic effects of the credit squeeze.
  I welcome the Chancellor's reference to national savings. The record has gone up yet again from £325 million to £389 million in the last year. There can be little doubt that the National Savings movement has on many occasions acted as an economic lifeline to my right hon. Friend in his Budget. There is little doubt also that the trend in savings in Britain is now gaining momentum. However, I cannot help thinking that it is now clear that Savings Certificates are more attractive to the large taxpayer than to the small saver.

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  The high taxpayer saves a considerable amount of tax through having his investment in Savings Certificates. The small investor pays little tax anyhow. I believe that we are at the moment witnessing a substantial change in social habits in regard to savings in Britain. No longer does the small saver go only to the Post Office Savings Bank to buy savings certificates. I suggest that we are witnessing today a gradual change inasmuch as the small saver is tending to invest his savings in unit trusts, investment trusts and in buying shares on the Stock Exchange even in a small way. There is, I feel, tremendous scope for an increase in savings among people in this section of the community. Perhaps my right hon. Friend might in future years be able to give further incentive to this class of small saver.
  I thank right hon. and hon. Members for their very kind reception of my speech on this occasion and for their most courteous attention.
  6.7 p.m.
  Mrs. Eirene White: It gives me the greatest possible pleasure to offer congratulations from all quarters of the Committee to the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills). I must make a personal apology to him for forgetting at one moment, so fluently was he speaking, that his was a maiden speech, and that I should not have interrupted him. He seemed to me to be talking such sound sense that I felt that he should be on this side of the Committee rather than on the benches opposite.
  The hon. Gentleman drew such a picture of conditions in Northern Ireland and Belfast, which happens to be my own natal city, that he was forced by the logic of the circumstances which he was describing to draw the conclusion that what, after all, is really needed in Northern Ireland is a little Socialist planning. It was at that point, I regret to say, that I interrupted him. I say very sincerely that his speech was so cogently argued and well thought out that it will be a very great pleasure for all of us to hear him on future occasions.
  We have had several notable speeches this afternoon. We had one from the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) which was fluent, as
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  always, but, I thought, depressing in the extreme. If I may be allowed to say so, we had a very notable contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland), who put the true Socialist case on the state of our economy and its future prospects in a way which few of us could rival.
  The frightening feature of the present situation, as my hon. Friend so admirably explained, is that we have a Government who, apparently, are incapable of dealing with more than one year of expansion at a time. I will not make too much play of the fact that a year of expansion coincides with the year of a General Election, but if the pattern is to be that only once in four years can we have, for electoral purposes, an expanding economy and then must take the next three years to recover from it, the outlook for Britain is bleak.
  It is clear from the speech of the right hon. Member for Monmouth that he, for one, does not believe that his colleagues on the Front Bench are capable of dealing with the genie of expansion once it has got out of the bottle. The right hon. Member's speech expressed the true outlook of the great majority of the Conservative Party. I do not say necessarily of the majority of hon. Members at present sitting on the benches opposite. I mean the phrase metaphorically. There are few hon. Members physically sitting on the benches opposite at the moment, but it would be true to say that the authentic voice of Conservatism is that of the right hon. Member for Monmouth, and that we have sitting on the Front Bench opposite the best Socialist Chancellor that we could have at the moment.
  The argument of the right hon. Member for Monmouth amounts to this, that we cannot afford the dangers of expansion and that the moment we have an expanding economy, in our present state of affairs, our imports go up, our balance of payments position is under pressure, and hardly have we started to expand than we must at once damp down effort and enthusiasm. The right hon. Gentleman really has no remedy for this situation. He repeats, regrettably, the Conservative fallacy that virtually all public expenditure is inflationary but that private expenditure is not. We on this side cannot possibly accept that. We do not believe that one form of

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  expenditure is, in itself, more inflationary than another. On the contrary, we believe that if we are to get our social priorities right expenditure in the public sector is at least as important as expenditure in the private sector.
  We cannot allow the selfish wishes of many of us as individuals—we are all involved here—to take priority. There are times when the public interest must come first, and when judgment of the public good must take first place over the naturally selfish wish for comfort of which we are all guilty from time to time. If we allow our individual selfishness to come first, we shall constantly have the situation in which Governments turn to us and say, "We cannot afford this, that or the other type of social expenditure". If we allow ourselves to be governed by individual selfish interests, we shall continue to have the position, which we all know so well in our constituenies, of an increase in certain forms of expenditure on consumer durables, as they are called in the economists' jargon, but, none the less, continue to have completely inadequate improvements in our schools, hospitals, housing, and so on.
  Recently, I looked at expenditure on education. I was drawn into doing so by a remark made the other day by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Education who was congratulating himself and the Government on a decision to increase sharply expenditure on school building. When I looked at the figures, however, I found that the proposed increase of expenditure on school building will not, by any means, bring us back to the level of expenditure on school building in 1955. It is simply an increase over the figures after the economy cuts of the right hon. Member for Monmouth.
  It is, therefore, not a real increase at all. In fact, we have not even caught up to the position which we were in five years ago. Yet the condition of mind of the occupants of the Front Bench opposite is such that they congratulate themselves in public on an increase which does not even bring us up to the position in which we were five years ago. In one department of our social expenditure after another the same story can be found. There was the Home Secretary's famous election boom. After that there was a very sharp decline, and we are still rather laboriously climbing up the hill.
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  In general, I share fully the apprehensions of my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby. He is very much more competent in these matters than I am, but I feel that the country is being deceived by Conservative propaganda of the kind that we had during the election. This, among other things, accused us of placing, on the country an intolerable burden by our social policies, suggesting that they could be carried out only at the cost of vastly increased taxation. But the right hon. Member for Monmouth himself gave the figure of an increase of £1,000 million in Government expenditure over five years. Some of the computers at the Conservative Central Office used that very figure during the election. It was not our calculation—it was theirs—of the cost of the programme of the Labour Party at the election. Granting that it was accurate, it would have been no more than the amount by which the Government have increased expenditure over a comparable period. I think, therefore, that we are entitled to say that this kind of propaganda, which was carried out extensively at the election in all the constituencies, was entirely without foundation.
  Having said something about my general feelings on the Budget, I should now like to mention one or two details. As someone who for many years past has taken part in discussions here on the Entertainments Duty, it would be ungracious of me if I were not to acknowledge that the Chancellor has abolished this Duty, which had become exclusively a tax on the cinema industry. This is a little late in the day, but we welcome it. I wish that he had done it earlier. Had he done so, there would have been a better chance of the industry reorganising and rationalising itself. I think that that time has probably passed and, therefore, it is a great pity that this was not done two or three years ago. However, it has now been abolished, and the effect may be to save a few cinemas which would otherwise have had to close.
  Many of us on both sides of the Committee have pursued this matter over the past few years. We have in the Palace of Westminster a cinema with some rather out-of-date projecting equipment. It would perhaps be a nice gesture to the House of Commons if the cinema industry thought of giving us a new and more up-to-date projector.

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  There is another matter to which I wish to refer. It is something which is, in its detail, a matter for the Finance Bill rather than for a Budget debate, but we have still a little while before the Finance Bill is published and we should put in a plea at this stage for anything which we wish to have included in it. I do not often speak in the House as a feminist. I would not seek to rival my right hon. Friend the Member for Warrington (Dr. Summerskill), but there are occasions when it is only right that those among the small number of lady Members here should say something on behalf of the women of this country. I want to make a plea on behalf of a small number of women who at the moment are very much discouraged by our fiscal provisions.
  A few days ago the Financial Secretary received at the Treasury a deputation representing the professional and university women, who put it to him that with the present arrangements for taxation a married woman who is a professional person and, therefore, able to earn a reasonably large salary is so affected by our present system of taxation, and of aggregating the incomes of husband and wife for taxation purposes, that there is too little advantage to her financially to take a job. She is not even able to obtain an adequate domestic substitute for herself if she is doing full-time professional work. It is not worth the while of women with scientific and professional qualifications to work even though it might well be for the good of the country.
  I have with me a report made by the British Federation of University Women which draws attention to the loss to the community of the valuable services of the small number of highly-qualified women. The British Federation, some little while ago, realising the need for scientists and for teachers in technical colleges and schools of mathematics and scientific subjects, decided to run refresher courses for married woman with good qualifications to encourage them to return to employment. It was found that the response was not as good as had been hoped. The Federation therefore took pains to make an inquiry among its membership.
  The result of the inquiry was that roughly half of those to whom the
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  Federation applied said that it was financially so disadvantageous to them to take employment that they had decided that it was not worth while. Therefore, the country is deprived through its taxation policy of the services of women in spheres in which they could be of particular value. As every Member of the Committee knows, we are extremely short of teachers in mathematical and scientific subjects. We are also short of specialist workers in industry. We are extremely short, as we know from Questions week after week in the House, of school dental officers. In some areas we are short also of doctors and other similarly qualified persons. Surely it is foolish so to arrange our taxation that this group of women is discouraged from returning to employment. From the viewpoint of national finances, the return from taxation is negligible—the numbers involved are small—but from the point of view of using people of quality and attainment in certain fields, the public advantage is clear.
  I will not bore the Committee by going into detail with figures which, in any event, are available at the Treasury, but I plead with the Treasury to take this matter seriously. It is very discouraging to a woman who has had an extremely expensive education, who has then married and probably brought up a family, who knows that she has the equipment with which to do a worthwhile job, to find that the community is so little interested in her that it will not make any change in our taxation system.
  There are many of us who are of professional standing, if we may call membership of the House of Commons a profession, who find, for instance, that on the work we do here, after allowing for our own direct expenses as Members of the House, when our tax position is taken into account it is quite impossible to earn enough to find an adequate domestic substitute for oneself. Therefore, one spends a great deal of time doing laborious work. I do not object to doing it in one sense. On the other hand, if one considers the possibility of using one's capacity, it seems a pity that people in our position should, for financial reasons, have to spend so much time on work which other people could do equally well.

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  Whilst one does not wish in any way to compare oneself in capacity with some of the great figures of the Victorian era, when one reads, for example, that Florence Nightingale had five people who did nothing else but look after her comfort one wishes that it were possible to afford just one.
  I shall never forget the heartfelt cry at a moment of pressure of my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle), who said, "If only I had a wife." We all knew exactly what she meant. There are many hon. Members who have the support and care of their wives in their moments of political crisis and stress of work which those of the opposite sex hardly can have. Even though their husbands bestow upon them the greatest kindness and consideration, it is not quite the same thing.
  I make this small feminine plea to the Treasury to look seriously at the position of the professional wome and to see whether it is not possible in the Finance Bill to make such arrangements about the aggregation of tax as would make it possible for these people to give their best to the community.
  6.27 p.m.
  Mr. Joseph Hiley: Pudsey, or, as it is familiarly known in Yorkshire, Pudsa', the constituency which I represent, has always enjoyed a wider and greater fame than its Member of Parliament. Nothing happened last October to invalidate the truth of that assertion. Its renown, however, has been gained, not. as it might have been, by the excellence and variety of its products, but rather because it has produced more first-class cricketers than any other place in the world. Herbert Sutcliffe and Sir Leonard Hutton are household names, but the Borough of Pudsey also gave Yorkshire, and, indeed, England, Halliday, Booth and. for those who can remember. Tunnicliffe.
  It may not be as generally known that within the constituency of Pudsey is a place called Rawdon, from whence comes Brian Close and from whence came the late Hedley Verity, who performed as valiantly on the field of battle as he did on the cricket field.
  The Pudsey constituency, too, has produced Illingworth, who has recently been with the England team in the West Indies. To assure the Committee that
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  we shall not rest on our laurels, I want hon. Members to know that in our present No. 1 in Yorkshire, Brian Stott, we have a man who is ready now to take his place as No. 1 for England. Surely, no place in all the land, including Scotland and Wales as well, has ever produced so many great players of England's grandest game.
  I thank hon. Members for the indulgence they have shown so far, because they must be wondering what all this has to do with the Budget. The only connection I can think of is that I realise I am indeed batting on a sticky wicket. I hope that the indulgence of the Committee will be extended a little longer. To pursue the simile, I hope that nobody will walk in front of the sight board for another moment or two.
  I have mentioned that the fame of Pudsey might have been gained by the excellence and variety of its products— wool textiles, engineering, dyeing, the making of perambulators and the distribution of food—which come from large numbers of small firms which have been built up during the last 50 or 100 years and which, in the main, are still controlled by the descendants of the founders. By comparison with the large concerns in the country today, they are indeed small, but they make a vital contribution to the economy of the country. In fact, I do not think it would be an exaggeration to say that they make at least an equal contribution to that which is provided by the industrial giants.
  Happily for the wool textile trade, the habits of the people are such that they do not encourage it ever to develop in large units, and unless we all dress in uniform, that is not likely to happen. In order to stress that point, I particularly refrained today from wearing my House of Commons uniform. In matters of taxation, private companies are treated the most harshly. I realise that I must not be controversial today, but when I refer to the ploughing back of profits, I believe I shall secure the support of hon. Members on both sides of the Committee.
  I wonder if those hon. Members who advocate the ploughing back of profits realise that the Inland Revenue can, and indeed sometimes does, come along to private companies and make a tax

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  assessment on the distribution which the tax authorities themselves think ought to have been made. It is quite true that they do not say that the distribution has to be increased, but, by virtue of their authority and their ability to make assessments, it means that a greater distribution will be made, because I have never yet found the human being who, having been taxed, does not make sure that he gets the money on which the tax has to be paid.
  The late Sir Stafford Cripps sought to alleviate this evil by restraining the tax authorities from wielding this weapon too vigorously, and I suggest to my right hon. Friend that he, too, might now unfold his umbrella and so consolidate and fortify the resources of private firms. So far as I know—and I am not an economist, but merely one of the little men trying to keep the wheels going round—that is where investment in industry could come from, and that is where those who have been engaged in industry all their lives look for the money with which to fortify their businesses. If the Chancellor takes it all, I cannot see where the investment in industry is to come from.
  The ploughing back of profits creates another hazard for the private firm, especially the one which is director controlled. Section 55 of the 1940 Finance Act was particularly severe on private companies. I am not quite sure, from the Chancellor's Budget statement on Tuesday, reported at the top of column 61 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, whether the proposed changes in Estate Duty refer particularly to Section 55, but I hope that it is intended by my right hon. Friend to ensure that wives and families will be preserved from the penal and evil effects of Section 55, as it appears in the 1940 Act.
  Many small firms continue to be swallowed up into larger organisations, and this is not good for the country. It is brought about almost entirely by this penal system of high taxation. Sometimes, amalgamations take place, but they are not always possible, and when they do not take place, something even worse could often happen, as indeed it does on occasions. Firms controlled by private companies have closed down as a result of Estate Duty and other forms of high taxation.
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  I welcome the Estate Duty concessions which have been made by the Chancellor, but the levels are still too high and ought to be lowered. I think that the value to the Exchequer of what the Chancellor secures from Estate Duty is quite insignificant compared with the disruption which it causes to family businesses. So long as Estate Duty remains, I would respectfully suggest to the Chancellor that he should help those in private industry to find ways by which they can make payments easier in order to provide for possible assessment of Estate Duty.
  Why should not the Chancellor allow individuals to create during their lifetime funds which would not be subject to aggregation in their estates after death, something on the lines of tax reserves? Insurance could probably assist one in this dilemma of providing funds to meet Estate Duty, but it is expensive. Then, of course, there are some lives which could not possibly be acceptable to the insurance companies. I think it is far better for a man to be able to face this problem during his lifetime with some certainty, rather than leave it behind for his wife and family, who in most cases are far less able to cope with that situation than he is himself.
  High taxation has a devastating affect on the private company, and, incidentally, on those employed therein, and if it is not remedied, we shall find owner-management and indeed competition gradually being eliminated. These are absolutely vital characteristics of private enterprise, and, therefore, I hope that the Chancellor will take heed.
  6.38 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Holt: I have very great pleasure in following the hon. Member for Pudsey (Mr. Hiley) and congratulating him on his maiden speech. This is not exactly a battle of the roses, but an exchange of courtesies, and I express my congratulations very genuinely.
  The hon. Member has succeeded a former hon. Member of this House who perhaps experienced a situation in which I think all of us would hope never to be placed ourselves—that of rinding himself in distracting and deep emotional disagreement with his own party over a policy which he thought to be completely wrong. I had many conversations with him over the great interest

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  which he took in the Middle East, and I must say that, although possibly the hon. Member—I do not know—may not agree with the views of the former Member for Pudsey, I am quite sure that he will hold him in great honour for the personal stand which he took. I do not think I could offer the hon. Gentleman any higher hope than that he will represent his constituency in the same very honourable way in which the former Member did.
  I would agree with many of the comments which the hon. Member made about private firms. Indeed, I wish to see them remain in existence, and I hope that we can stop these very unnecessary amalgamations and the movement towards monopoly which is still going on in this country. If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I will not follow him into that subject this evening.
  As the only member of my party who will probably have the opportunity to speak in this debate, I have the duty of having to mention rather a lot of subjects, while trying to avoid an omnibus speech. Therefore, for the sake of brevity, I should like to draw the Committee's attention to the Motion which we put down yesterday outlining some of the points on which we are critical of the Government. It says:
  "That this House has distrust in the financial ability of a Government which, after attacking its opponents at a General Election for proposing increases in Government expenditure, itself budgets for an increase of £400 million, has no proposals for a reform of the tax structure to take some of the weight of taxation off earnings"—
  which was one of the points which my hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) made in that excellent article to which the Economic Secretary so courteously drew attention earlier in the debate—
  "and has done nothing to encourage the spread of ownership, either by reducing the stamp duty on transfers, giving any tax incentive to co-ownership or by abolishing Schedule A"
  There are also other points in the Budget of which we are somewhat critical, such as the Tobacco Duty and the increase in Profits Tax. Retrospective legislation, although on something in which we had no particular interest, does seem a most undesirable step to take. There is also the very questionable pro-
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  vision relating to the superannuation tax allowance of £15.
  Before the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) leaves, I should like to have his attention for one moment. I really am sorry he cannot go out for a moment, for he must be dying for a cup of tea. I turn now to the main burden of what I want to say, and to utter a word about what the right hon. Member for Monmouth said, and also about what was said by the hon. Member who followed him, the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland).
  I would not presume for one moment to pretend that I have the qualifications, the knowledge or the experience of either of them in economics, but I did listen to them very carefully, as, indeed, all the people in the Committee did when they spoke, and I would say to both of them that they are very good at posing the problem; but I think—and he himself, I think, would not deny it—that today the right hon. Gentleman did not himself offer the solution. He discussed the problem of deciding how much should be spent. We can all discuss this, but the real problem is, on what in particular is it we are going to cut expenditure?
  I hope I am not being patronising in saying this, but I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that there was a famous associate of his, famous in another sphere. Sir Anthony Eden, who also resigned from Government. That was before the war, and it was in different circumstances which may or may not have justified his action. He decided not to campaign for his views. Whether, if he had done so, the turn of events would have been otherwise, I do not know.
  I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that there are quite a lot of people who share some at any rate of his views. He has given the Government a period of two years in which they may think about their policies. If he is really serious about this matter, then, in the interests of the country as a whole, I suggest he should campaign strongly about it. That need not be particularly embarrassing to his own party at the moment; it is a long time before the next General Election. It really is up to people who take his kind of view to campaign strongly for it.
  I think he will find a surprising amount of support for some of his views, and find it in rather strange places in

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  this Committee, not only on his side and not only on this bench.
  I feel that we must be frank and that, if we are talking about cutting Government expenditure, we have to recognise that there is probably no support—or very little, anyhow—in this Committee for cutting Government expenditure on things like education. Indeed, I should think that there is a large majority in the Committee for a steady increase, at least for some time, in expenditure on education, and on roads, and, probably, on parts of the national welfare services, pensions and sickness and unemployment benefits. As the country's wealth increases there will certainly be a majority in this Committee for seeing that those benfits also increase.
  However. I think there is a majority here for, first of all, seeing that on some other items no more money goes, and then for finding ways and means by which the expenditure in some cases can be cut—I refer to expenditure on nuclear arms and agricultural subsidies— and by which in some other cases the burden of expenditure is transferred from the Budget on to other sources. I am referring now first of all to the railways subsidy, as it now is, which, by reform of the railways, could certainly be greatly reduced, even though we may agree to continuing to run some services which are marginally uneconomic; and also to what is widely accepted among people interested in the matter as being the desirable achievement of getting the financing of the nationalised industries done on the open market and not by compulsory savings off the Budget.
  Although many people have talked about this, no apparently satisfactory or practical methods have been found. We, for our part, have suggested that we start with the gas industry, which is already broken up into twelve boards, and because the borrowings they may have to make are likely to be of a small order.
  I suggest that there is quite a large measure of agreement basically in the Committee on these four objects which I have mentioned, and, surprisingly enough, for instance, about the agricultural subsidies. It was even suggested in the maiden speech of the hon. Member for Clitheroe (Mr. F. Pearson) yesterday.
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  He made the simple point that the Minister of Agriculture was intimating that he did not want a total increase in agricultural production but that, on the other hand, he had told the farmers that they must increase productivity; and he made the simple point that if there is a farm with two men working on it and their productivity is increased, they are bound to increase production. He asked where was this to go. His answer was simple. We must have export markets for some of our agricultural products and let them go abroad. He said that this cannot be allowed because of these subsidies, and that they would have to be given up. The particular ones he mentioned were milk and beef, for a start.
  I suggest that these are the kinds of things people in this Committee, if they are serious about cutting Government expenditure, should get together upon, for by agreement we could bring some influence to bear and make some progress. Unless we are prepared to deal with these subjects particularly, and to argue about them, it seems to me absolutely useless talking in a general sense about the need for cutting Government expenditure.
  I agree in general with the kind of objects which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is obviously intending and wishing to pursue in his Budget, but I suggest that he has left one instrument out which is readily to hand and in which, strangely enough, people are really more interested today than they have been for some time. I have often felt mine was a lone voice here about it. The Chancellor has said that investment is going up, that production is going up, and that the great, important thing is to keep costs and prices down.
  What is the one thing which, without disturbing anything else that he is doing, he could have done and has not done which would make a real contribution? The right hon. Member for Monmouth knows the answer and I see that he is now leaving the Chamber and is not waiting to hear it. It is simply to return to what was long ago, before the Tory Party turned it upside down, the traditional policy of this country, and that is to make a slashing cut in import duties. Before some hon. Member condemns this as "old Gladstonianism", let us

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  examine what would be the result at the moment.
  The cutting of tariffs would be entirely in the mood of some of the developments in the international sphere. The cutting of tariffs would lower prices in the home market substantially and the effect of that would be to push more of our production abroad, which is another thing that the Chancellor wants to do. It would also tend to reduce stocks, because there would be a slight tendency for prices to go down rather than to go up. When there are tendencies for prices to go up people say, "We had better have higher stocks". The reduction of stocks is one of the things which the Chancellor, in his Budget speech, said he wished to secure.
  The cutting of tariffs also increases incentives to save, because if one thinks that prices will be a little lower next year or later one tends to save rather than spend, and the whole go-ahead international trading climate which would result would certainly encourage investment. This, of course, is all very well and if we were to consider it in isolation I would say that it should be an absolute must, but there are other things going on in Europe at present and we must look at them.
  It is extraordinary, and I entirely agree with the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) when he expressed his surprise, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said absolutely nothing about the Common Market in his speech. This really is extraordinary. Those who are students of history may have noticed that this year is the centenary of the famous commercial treaty with France of 1860. Perhaps surprisingly, I am familiar with some of the speeches made at that time. I have looked them up and read them on various occasions, and I have noticed that Gladstone in his famous Budget speech of 1860 is reported over sixty columns whilst the Chancellor's Budget speech this year takes up only thirty columns of HANSARD. I cannot help feeling that half of the Chancellor's speech was missing—a half which he should have delivered about a French treaty.
  Today, instead of having a French treaty we have very pleasant courtesies exchanged in London with the French President, but what more there is to it we do not know. Possibly the real sig-
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  nificance now is that, instead of having a Liberal Government on the Front Bench opposite, we have a Tory Government. I suggest to the Committee that in the economic conditions of today and in view of international movements there are only two choices for us. What is going on in Europe is very serious and I do not think that a solution can be found, as is suggested in some quarters, in the establishment of a wider Atlantic economic community.
  I believe that the choice is between this country deciding to go unilaterally for free trade again, and ensuring that in this country we have the cheapest market in which to manufacture our goods and so be able to get them over any barriers put in our way in Europe, or alternatively recognising that the only solution in Europe is for us to go into the Common Market of the Six.
  As for the first solution, we would miss the political advantages. There would only be economic advantages. The political importance of not dividing Europe and of our playing a full part in it are rather more important than the economic advantages of having fewer barriers to trade. It is simply this that the Government have to recognise, and they have a first-class opportunity now that the Germans, as announced in the Press today, are concerned about the Hallstein proposals and obviously they are to be buried for some time. The Government have a first-class opportunity now of starting again with their proposals. If they think that, because the Germans and the Belgians are upset about the possibility of increased tariffs keeping out imports from Britain, they are going to hold up the Common Market, they are utterly and emphatically wrong. They must recognise this.
  I was most disappointed to notice that when the hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) raised this matter on 1st April the Prime Minister obviously still hoped that there could be some way of bridging the gap between the Six and the Seven. I would have thought that it was almost, though not quite, too late for the Government to recognise that there is no arrangement that the Seven can make with the Six and that the only kind of arrangement by which the Six can be made bigger is for people like ourselves—and certainly

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  the Danes and possibly the Austrians and the Swiss would then follow—to go into the Common Market. If the Common Market were enlarged it might be possible for other small countries of Europe to make an association, but it would not be possible for us to be outside.
  This is the Government's responsibility. It is no good blaming the French. These are the realities of the European situation. Neither is it any good blaming it on the Americans, which is the biggest mistake of all. If one talks to any American one finds that he looks at Europe with the eyes of an American, the citizen of a country which has no barrier between its states. The American says, "That is precisely what should happen in Europe." This idea of the British not associating with a group in a Europe which should be like the United States the American thinks is just unrealistic, and he thinks that failure to do this is just the British being terribly slow about it. The Americans think solely of a United States of Europe, and they have done so all along. This ought to be absolutely plain to the Government by now. Until the Government face up to this we shall not find a solution. I hope that they do it before it is too late.
  6.59 p.m.
  Mr. Cyril Osborne: The hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Holt) said that he was putting before the Committee what might be called the old Gladstonian free trade concept, and I should like to ask him two questions about his concept. I represent an agricultural constituency and I should like to know whether the hon. Member would destroy all food subsidies and would end all the guaranteed prices. Would he tell me that?
  Mr. Holt: I am sure that the hon. Member does not want me to make another speech. I thought that I was absolutely fair and clear about this. I want a start, and I support the approach to the subject of the hon. Member for Clitheroe (Mr. F. Pearson). I do not want to destroy the whole thing at once.
  Mr. Osborne: The hon. Member said that he would drastically cut all tariffs. I wrote down his words. I should have thought that that would involve ultimately, if not quickly, the ending of
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  farm subsidies and of supports. All I have to say is this. I am not a farmer but I represent farmers, and they believe that it would bring absolute ruin back to the English countryside. If this is what the hon. Gentleman is advocating I am completely opposed to him.
  He made a second point with which I rather agree. He said that if we are serious about cutting Government expenditure we have to face the fact that it involves a complete and major change of policy. We cannot effect really big economies by trying to get what I call administrative higgledy-piggledy pennyworths of savings here and there. If we are really to affect the financial situation in any major way we have to do it by a major change of policy.
  So many Members on both sides of the Committee, including my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), are demanding enormous' Government savings without saying where they ought to be. That seems so unfair and unreasonable. The only good suggestion in this debate about where we might save money is in defence.
  I wonder whether, since we were told by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation when he was Minister of Defence that there is no real defence against the modern atomic bomb in this country, since Mr. Khrushchev seems so determined, if he can, to get peace, and since the only real threat to this country could come from Russia, we might not look at some of our defence expenditure in the near future. We are spending £1,500 million a year on defence. Since the end of the war we have spent about £16,000 million on defence. I begin to wonder whether that is not one of the major policy changes that might be looked into.
  I agree with a point made by the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) in a very attractive speech. As his constituency and mine adjoin, I listened with doubled interest. He made the point that, compared with other countries in Europe, we were not investing nearly as high a proportion of our national product, and that we ought to be investing in re-equipment a substantially greater proportion.
  We have to face the fact that if we are to invest a greater proportion of the

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  national product in re-equipment, then we have to cut down immediate consumption to the same extent. It is no good members opposite saying that this would be easy. If we went to our supporters and told them that we were proposing to build new factories and fill them with up-to-date machinery, and that as a result they would have fewer schools and hospitals and a lower standard of living in order to enable us to do it, we should not be popular on either side.
  The dilemma of the modern democratic way of life is that whilst we can control the economic machine, we lack the courage to tell our people truths about that machine and the way in which it can be worked. The trouble with the persuasive argument of the hon. Member for Grimsby is that if he were to tell his constituents that he was going to cut down their standard of living in order to spend more of the national income on re-equipment, I do not think that he would be returned to the House at the next election—and no Member on either side likes to face that prospect.
  I say this about the Budget. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Chancellor on what I consider to be politically a dull, dismal, uninspiring and unpopular Budget, but which, economically, is necessary and very courageous. Because of that, I congratulate him. I wish he were here. I would not like him to feel, because of what he read in the newspaper headlines today, that he has not the support of the overwhelming number of his own back benchers, because he has.
  He has certainly a number of critics, and I honour them for their point of view and the sincerity and the ferocity with which they put it, but I assure my right hon. Friend that they are a tiny band, a very small number, and many of us have an immense respect for his character and the work that he has been doing.
  Some say that the Budget is tough. I wonder if it is tough enough. I would like it to be much tougher. Some have said that it is the sort of Budget that Sir Stafford Cripps would have brought in. I was in the House at the time and listened to Sir Stafford Cripps. I had a great respect for his character and for
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  what he tried to do. I did not agree with the way he did it, but for his courage in telling the people the bitter truth I had the utmost respect. I think that what is needed at the moment is more of the Crippsian spirit on both sides of the Committee, even though that may mean risking temporary unpopularity.
  I now turn to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster. I told him that I would say things against him, but he is on television tonight and therefore cannot be here. He begged by pardon for not being present. But I am entitled to say even in his absence—and I know my noble Friend the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) will reply to me later today or tomorrow— that his attack was unjustified. It was bitter, unreasonably bitter, and is resented by many of his colleagues on this side of the Committee.
  It reminded me of two previous occasions in the House. One was when the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) made his resignation speech in 1951 from the fourth bench below the Gangway on this side. It was at that time resented by his colleagues as being unreasonable and unjustifiably bitter, and I feel the same about the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster.
  The hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Grossman) will remember Mr. Ernest Bevin turning round to him in t947 and saying that he was tired of being stabbed in the back because he was accused of not bringing in a Socialist foreign policy but instead was continuing a British foreign policy.
  What happened last night reminded me of those two examples, and I want to reassure my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer that most of us on this side of the Committee will support him to the utmost. I say this to my noble Friend the Member for Dorset, South, who will no doubt take the opposite view. Since 1954 the social services have cost the country £1,000 million more a year. The time to protest about Government expenditure is when such policies are passed in the House, and I do not remember the Kidderminster crowd ever protesting against

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  increases in health, pensions or education. It is upon those three items that this £1,000 million extra is largely being spent.
  The time for them to protest and to abuse the Chancellor is when the policy is being agreed upon. Why did they not do so? I say also that during the election most Conservative candidates—and I was one—were proud of the fact that we spent all this money on social services, and we got votes on it. To abuse the Chancellor now because we have spent that money is, I think—I dare not tell the Committee what I really do think —is grossly unfair, and I resent it.
  It seems that we have hon. Members on all sides of the House of Commons who have a queer kind of dual personality. Nine-tenths of the time we come to the House and demand that more money shall be spent on pet subjects which suit us or our constituencies, and then once a year we have to pay for it and we squeal like pigs. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is perfectly true. Those who live on farms know how pigs can squeal.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Mr. C. Osborne) will remember a certain stricture that he delivered only about thirty seconds ago against intemperate language.
  Mr. Osborne: But the description was collective and included myself. I said that we all have this queer dual personality. We like to spend money, and yet we hate having to find that money.
  So far as I can see, the real kernel of our problem has not been touched upon. It is that the last ten years of Conservative prosperity and of a high standard of living in this country have largely been enjoyed at the expense of the coloured men of the world. The terms of trade have been in our favour, and we have got our tin, rubber, lead and zinc at prices which ought to make us ashamed. Nine-tenths of the world are living at one-tenth of our standard of living. We say that we want the coloured people to have a higher standard of living, but they can have that only if we pay a fairer price for what they produce. If that is to happen, the terms of trade will move against us.
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  As the Economic Secretary knows, a movement of about two points in the terms of trade would land us in a deficit which would give us the shivers. There is not enough reserve in our economy to take care of that. We shall not always be so lucky.
  I have just returned from South Africa. There I saw people working for wages that made me shudder. The problem in Africa will be solved not by politics but by putting up wages and by giving the people a decent standard of living. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] We shall have to pay for that. It is no good hon. Members cheering unless they are prepared to say to their constituents, "This means, brothers, that those people are to have some of the good things which you are enjoying." They must also say whether they are prepared to do that or not.
  I wonder whether enough weight is being given in our calculations to the danger that the terms of trade may turn against us. Let it not be forgotten that the 50 million of us in this country can exist only if we sell abroad 30 per cent. of all that we manufacture. If we pay more and more, as we must and as we ought, for the raw materials that we use, it will be more and more difficult for us to sell our goods in foreign markets, and more and more difficult for us to maintain the Tory prosperity of which we have all been so justly proud. Very few persons are prepared to tell the people these unpleasant truths, and that is why I wish that we had half a dozen men like Sir Stafford Cripps on both sides of the House.
  I should like the Chancellor to consider whether there is enough reserve in our economy to take care of the dangers which I conceive may arise if we have to pay more for our raw materials and foodstuffs. Will the Chancellor do what I asked a previous Chancellor to do but which he refused to do—go out day by day in the country and explain the difficulties of our situation and appeal not only for restraint in wage claims by the workpeople but on this side of the House for restraint in dividends and profits, for better, greater and cheaper production, because that is the only way that we shall avoid another serious crisis which might well be ahead of us?
  7.15 p.m.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: I apologise to the Committee for not having been present throughout the debate because of other engagements in the Palace of Westminster, but I should like to intervene for a short time following a very good example. I am sure that we have all welcomed the freshness of the contributions made in our Budget debates by the hon Member for Louth (Mr. C. Osborne). He can never be described as orthodox, and his speeches always break fresh ground. We must agree that many of the things he says are full of wisdom.
  The hon. Member may be unduly pessimistic in thinking that what he has described will suddenly come about, but what he has said about the peoples of Africa undoubtedly contains a great deal of truth, and unless we foresee what is likely to develop it may bring disaster upon us and our economy. The hon. Member may be interested to know that when my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) addressed a Scottish Labour Party conference some years ago he devoted his address to pointing out what the hon. Gentleman has just said, that it will be part of the duty of the people of this country to give up some of their standard of living so that the peoples of Africa and a thousand million people in the East can enjoy an improved standard of living.
  My right hon. Friend also said another thing which is very true, that the most effective way to do that is to have capital investment of a kind that will increase the productivity of our industry and that of the industries of these other countries so that we shall be able not only to expand our production to help those people but to help them help themselves.
  There was a curious aspect about the elimination of malaria. Many people thought that it would so increase the population in the East that it would further depress the standard of living there. However, in most cases it is found that the fact that people are no longer disabled but are able to work has resulted in much greater production, and in some places the standard of living, instead of falling, has actually risen. I am sure that if America, Britain, Germany. Russia, France and other countries which
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  have scientific resources could extend a helping hand to the peoples of Africa it would do more to eliminate the political problems which are arising than all the political discussions and the treaties which might be made with their chiefs. There is not the slightest doubt that the struggle of the African is a struggle not for mastery of the world but to get some of the benefits of the civilisation which we have selfishly kept to ourselves all these generations.
  I was a little alarmed by the Chancellor's speech on Monday, though not by what he has done in his Budget. I feel that most people—certainly hon. Members on this side of the Committee —welcome a great many of the steps which the Chancellor is taking to remove unfairness in taxation. There is a certain amount of hard luck on the part of 70–80 per cent. of the people who make their contributions in the normal way—they are taken from them by P.A.Y.E.—and have no gambling possibilities in their duties.
  Yet there is a fringe of the population who can make money by speculation and gambling because they have an economic freedom which is not possessed by the ordinary employee and can use all sorts of methods to avoid paying their due share of tax. There is nothing meaner than that a person who makes a huge fortune in this country going off to some place in the Bahamas or elsewhere to avoid paying his decent share of the taxes of this country, and then lecturing the people at home on what they should do while he is enjoying the sunshine and dodging his duty to his own country. That is a disgrace. Therefore, we welcome anything done by the Chancellor to make things fairer.
  However, the Chancellor indicated that there was to be a further tightening-up of the economy and that some other steps would have to be taken to slow down the machine which was beginning to run too fast. I am all in favour of avoiding inflation. Inflation is a stupid way of conducting our affairs, because it is just chasing our own tails, making a lot of movement and getting nowhere, exhausting our economy in the spiral. I am utterly against having inflation. We can always have it simply by printing "£2" on £1 notes, which is not creation of wealth.

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  However, inflation is always discussed as though it were general. Inflation generally arises when there is more demand for goods than it is possible to satisfy with the existing labour, raw material and plant. That is a generalisation, but it does not always apply generally. In the South of England there is an inflationary tendency, but in the rest of the country there is the very opposite.
  Therefore, to start to introduce a general tightening-up in order to cure inflation in the South of England is to make matters worse for the North and to bring disaster to great sections of the population. I am, therefore, a bit disappointed that the Government have not yet got down to appreciating that while they may have to put on the brakes because in some areas the car is going too fast, in other districts they ought to put their foot on the accelerator because the car is going too slow. That sort of discrimination is essential if the economies of the North-East Coast and Scotland are not to be shattered by the further application of the brake on the economy.
  I have been very interested by what has happened in Malta, where the Government seem to have found a wonderful way of inducing industry to leave inflationary areas and move to deflationary areas. There is a report of this action in The Times of 15th March. The Times reported that the Colonial Secretary had started a campaign to induce firms to set up in Malta. The Times report said:
  "He also announced the appointment of Sir George Dowty … as chairman of the Malta Industrial Development Board, in succession to Lord Hives … £32,250,000 will be spent on the island. Industry is being encouraged to expand, by such incentives as a 10-year tax free holiday, loans or grants of up to 33⅓ per cent.—and in special cases up to 50 per cent.—for capital costs of plant, provision of new factories at low rentals, Customs duty reliefs, and preferential tariffs. These, Mr. Macleod said yesterday, produce about as good a bargain for the businessman as he could find anywhere in the world."
  The Government insist on clinging to their fetish about private enterprise, although private enterprise in this country has practically disappeared and there is now a co-operative enterprise between the Government and industry.
  Mr. C. Osborne: A mixed economy.
  Mr. Woodburn: Yes. I have not the slightest objection to that. In fact, I
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  am all for it. But let us admit it and not go on with some sort of pretence that the Government do not interfere with industry and industry does what it likes.
  If we accept that, we have to plan how the economy can work most effectively. Private enterprise depends on making ends meet to start with and on making a profit. I thought that the Chancellor was going to quote from Dickens about 6d. above and 6d. below income—Mr. Micawber. We recognise that if someone has a business and runs it in an area where it loses money, the business comes to an end. It can run only if it makes a profit, which is a condition of private enterprise.
  If for geographical or economic reasons industry in the North and in Scotland cannot make a profit, it is ridiculous to expect private enterprise to set up there and make a loss. That is commonsense from any businessman's point of view. We therefore have to face the fact that if it is left to the free working of the profit-making system, industry will drift more and more towards London, Birmingham and Manchester, because there the markets are economic and there the profits can be made. Hon. Members will realise that it is not only Englishmen who drift South. Scots capitalists drift South as well, because they have an eye to profit, the same as anybody else.
  Therefore, as a country we have to decide whether we want the whole country populated, or whether we want shooting resorts and wildernesses in the Highlands with the population all congregated round London. Any sensible Government will say that we want the population properly distributed.
  One has only to think of the difficulty of travelling in London. A friend of mine, who was one of the managers in the works where I was employed for 25 years, was a manager in an engineering works in London. He found that by the time he got home at night he had time only to have a meal and then go to bed. He came to Edinburgh, where he found that he could leave work at five o'clock, go home, have a cup of tea, and be on the golf course by half-past five.
  The attractions of living in the country where one can do that sort of thing are obvious, and they are not open to

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  people who live in conglomerations like London. After all, people flock from London to Scotland to fish in the lochs. Why should we not have industries in areas where people can have all those delightful recreations instead of having to spend hours in the tubes and trains, as they do in London? I say that it is desirable that we should spread industry throughout the country. The question is how it is to be done.
  The Government have discovered a method for doing it in Malta, and I should like that method to be tried in Scotland. When I was Secretary of State for Scotland, we had a development area around Inverness. Cheap rentals and other inducements were offered to persuade firms to come to the area, but those inducements were not sufficient to overcome the handicaps. Will Darling, who used to be an hon. Member, used to advocate this idea of a tax-free holiday. Will the Economic Secretary ask the Chancellor to consider this idea? If it can be used to induce industry to go to Malta, would it not be equally valuable for inducing industry to go to those areas of this country which are threatened by depopulation and economic crisis?
  Industries might be induced to start up in Scotland if they had such economic assistance. I appreciate that the Government have already given about £9 million to motor car firms as an inducement to go to Scotland. The trouble is that there are too few of such firms and that their arrival will not be a major contribution to the solution of the problem, because there are 92,000 unemployed, with about 24,000 people leaving the country each year, and only 10,000 new jobs are to be provided.
  The Chancellor's problem in the South of England is that there are too many jobs for too few people, so that he is having the pressure of inflation in the South. If he could get some of those jobs transferred to the North, he would find that they, like honey, attracted the bees.
  Mr. C. Osborne: Many thousands of Scotsmen have come penniless from Scotland to London and have made vast fortunes. As a Scotsman, cannot the right hon. Gentleman persuade his fellow
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  Scots who have made such large fortunes to take some of their fortunes back to their native land to find employment for their less fortunate countrymen?
  Mr. Woodburn: Let me be quite fair. There are some Scottish capitalists and some English capitalists who have done very we'll in this direction. Sir Stafford Cripps was able to persuade Mr. Smith of Smith's Clocks to bring his factory up there. Tom Johnston was able to persuade Mr. Morrison, chairman of British Aluminium, to bring one of his factories up there, and a good deal has been done by good will.
  However, I am afraid that some Scots, like some English, have been brought up on capitalist ideology and try to get as much profit as possible, which takes them South. We have to face that fact. I suggest that the Chancellor might use his economic power, by some of the novel methods which the Government have discovered, to induce industry to go up to Scotland.
  I see that the Chancellor has come into the Chamber. I was saying that the Colonial Secretary has just proposed that industry should be induced to go to Malta by a ten years' tax-free holiday and many other inducements. Since the Government have discovered this excellent way of taking industry from the inflationary areas into the deflationary areas, the Chancellor might adopt these methods in Scotland and the northern counties where industry has suffered and where instead of an inflationary crisis we have 92,000 unemployed.
  Miss Margaret Herbison: I am quite certain that my right hon. Friend would not want to do any harm to Scotland and to Scottish business. Although I agree with a great deal of what he has said, is it not the case that American firms, Westclox and others, are making a profit and are finding it very profitable indeed to be in Scotland?
  Mr. Woodburn: The explanation is that American firms, like Ferranti's, which have come to Scotland, have their sales organisation all over Europe already in being. It is a different proposition for a new firm starting up without a sales organisation in being. A firm like the British Motor Corporation has a sales organisation and no doubt in

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  time will attract minor firms to Scotland, but it is necessary to try to induce key industries and growing industries employing people to go there and act as an attraction to other industries.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Derick Heathcoat Amory): I am very interested in what the right hon. Gentleman has been saying, and I should like to confirm, from my information, that firms which have started in Scotland in the last few years have bean extremely satisfied with the conditions which they have found.
  Mr. Woodburn: The Chancellor is absolutely right. Every American firm has said that it is delighted with the labour, which it has found adaptable, and with the efficiency of production which it has been getting. I hope that what has been said will be noted by other firms which have perhaps been discouraged by certain rumours. I should like the Chancellor to look into this wonderful scheme of the Colonial Secretary for Malta and to be as generous to Scotland as his right hon. Friend has been to Malta. In this case we shall be quite pleased to have a little attention from the Colonial Secretary since he has a name which should at least encourage him to think about Scotland. I hope that he will encourage his colleagues to extend this scheme to Scotland. I know that many other hon. Members want to speak, so I will cut short anything further that I have to say.
  7.34 p.m.
  Mr. Julian Ridsdale: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) will forgive me if I do not deal with the problems of Scotland. I think that in the beginning of his speech he dealt with a very important item in the general economic picture, and that is investment in Asia, Africa and the overseas territories. I am sure that the ultimate solution of all our long-term problems can come only if the creditor countries of the world play their part in a proper investment policy so that world trade can expand and so that we are not faced with having to contract trade in Western Europe and in the Western free world as a whole.
  When I listened to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton (Mr.
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  H. Wilson) speaking yesterday, I thought that the theme of his speech was a return to Socialism. Like the Bourbons, during the last ten years he seems to have learnt nothing and forgotten nothing from the lessons of the last three General Elections.
  If there is one thing which the country does not want, I think that the lesson of the last election is that it does not want a return to Socialism, as expounded by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton yesterday. That is in the main why I have been disappointed with the prelude to this Budget which faces us with such a large increase in Government expenditure. In those circumstances, as the Guardian said yesterday, the balance that the Chancellor chose, I believe, will turn out to be about right.
  Yet how regrettable it is that the Chancellor had so little ground for manoeuvre, which prevented him from carrying out further reforms of our taxation structure which for the future impetus of our economy I am sure are necessary. In spite of all that has been said about the Budget in the last few days, let us be clear that the background to this debate is one of confidence and that it is vital in the situation of today to keep this confidence and not to bring uncertainty into trade or industry. Indeed, production is booming today. Industrial production is up by 10 per cent. and our exports have risen by up to 18 per cent. compared with a year ago. Steel production is up. Our task, I am sure, is to keep this mood of confidence in the economy but, above all, to keep stability in prices which we have enjoyed now for two years.
  How different the situation is from that of a year ago. Then we faced a very different situation. We faced a marked degree of unemployment, outlook for trade was uncertain, but the advantage that we had then was a balance of payments of £350 million. I am glad that at that moment, given the situation that was before the country, the Chancellor was prepared to take the risk he did and run into a deficit of £720 million and to take the decision to take the strain on the balance of payments.
  As it has turned out, the strain on the balance of payments has been brought down to £145 million and the deficit that we face today is about £300 million.

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  When the strain did develop in the economy, which showed a certain degree of similarity with the position in 1954–55, I congratulate the Chancellor on acting soon rather than allowing inflationary threats to emerge.
  The warnings given by the Governor of the Bank of England, the raising of the Bank Rate, the withdrawal of support for gilt-edged to restrain bank advances —all these steps, I am certain, were in the right direction to prevent the overloading of our economy. Looking at the deficit of £312 million and bearing in mind the economic situation today, I am not so sure that the deficit may not be too large if we are to get stability in prices. What I am concerned about is, where do we go from here?
  Now that we are in this favourable position, are we taking full advantage of it, especially with the still good terms of trade and favourable commodity prices? Will our balance of payments at the end of the year be enough to maintain the strength of sterling, to add to our resources and provide enough for our investment requirements overseas? Everybody must realise that in order to achieve this we must have a balance of payments of at least £400 million. As was said by the hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland), in an excellent speech referring to the investment policies of the Commonwealth countries, we must not be complacent, because Germany is investing 23 per cent. of her national product in her industry, compared with our 16 per cent. The reserves in Western Germany are very favourable compared with ours.
  What steps must we take to provide still further incentives to meet this problem? It was with this thought in mind, and with trade booming, that I was prepared to accept a little slimming from the Chancellor, provided that the pill was not going to damage the health of the patient. I am disappointed that my right hon. Friend has chosen the pill of increased taxation rather than faced the problem of postponing certain items of Government expenditure. Bearing in mind the still heavy level of taxation, further increases disturb the rhythm of our expansion in production and savings and undermine our feeling of confidence, besides creating some uncertainty in industry, which is bad for trade and for our economic situation.
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  I want to see further reductions in taxation as soon as possible, especially those which will help the elderly, those living on small fixed incomes, and those paying Schedule A tax. I also want to see better allowances given for scrapping old machinery more quickly. More responsibility should be given to individuals, families and industry, so that they can get on with the job. That is the basis of my political philosophy—can I say "our" political philosophy?—as opposed to Socialism.
  Accepting the fact that the Chancellor was not prepared to resist Government spending, I recognise that taxation increases are inevitable if we are to maintain the strength of sterling and price stability. That is why I turn my wrath not so much on the Chancellor as on the spending authorities, and on the present philosophy of relying too much upon the State and not enough upon individuals, families and industry to save and spend their own money.
  But what about Government spending? We are driven to realise the truth of the saying
  "For the Government to spend is to tax."
  I am most disturbed by the growth of spending by the Government, especially in civil expenditure, which is now over one-third of Budget expenditure. It is £340 million extra this year, excluding railways and the dentists' bill. That figure includes £100 million on defence; another £60 million on local authority spending; £21 million on health; £17 million on National Assistance, and only £13 million on roads. The rest of the expenditure is spread in small sums round the Departments. If we are to spend only £13 million extra on roads when local authorities are to spend another £60 million, our priorities are wrong.
  Since I came into the House in 1954, civil expenditure has increased by over £1,000 million—an increase of 40 per cent. In 1954 it was about 13 per cent. of the national product; today it is about 14·5 per cent.—a difference of about £250 million. The annual increase has been about 7 per cent. Since 1954 defence spending has oscillated a good deal, but it is fair to say that whereas in 1954 it was 9 per cent. of the national product it is now only 7 per cent. I cannot agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Mr. C. Osborne),

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  who said that we must necessarily look to defence for economies. But let us be clear about this; it is the large increase in civil spending, much of which is necessary, and which, in the election, many of us pledged the Government to carry out—especially in regard to pensions and National Assistance—that is preventing any decrease in taxation.
  Yet this increase of £1,000 million in spending since 1954 is obviously putting a strain on our balance of payments, and threatening the stability of prices. In those circumstances, are we prepared to postpone some civil expenditure? Are we prepared to bring it down to the 1954 figure of 13 per cent. of the national product? We cannot do this in pensions and National Assistance, but I am not so sure about local authority spending, especially in the spending done by some county councils. I asked my right hon. Friend about short-term borrowing by local county councils, and I understand that an estimate is now being made. I have not yet been able to obtain the relevant figures, but I am sure that there is one item of expenditure at which we should look more closely. I can speak only of my experience in my part of the world, but there is certain local authority spending in respect of which I am not sure that we are getting value for money.
  We cannot make savings on particular items; we can make them only as a general act of policy. We can resist demands only as part of an overall act of Government policy. Otherwise it becomes a "free for all", with each Member competing and trying to obtain the best for himself and his constituency, and scrambling and shouting to get a piece of the national cake.
  Those are my thoughts about the Budget. I trust that it will lead to stability in prices, but if, as I think possible, further restraining action is necessary, I press my right hon. Friend to examine Government expenditure rather than to think of further increases in taxation. The worst of being in politics is that we always have to compromise between what is ideally right and what is practically possible, but it is for the Government to give the lead; they should not expect us, as back benchers, to ask them to deal with one item of expenditure or another.
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  Above all, I hope that my right hon. Friend can get over to the country the idea that our vital purpose is the achievement of a decent and adequate balance of payments, so that we can carry out our world commitments, maintain the strength of sterling and the stability of prices, and accumulate reserves that a trading nation like ours should have— reserves adequate to carry out a proper Commonwealth and financial policy.
  7.48 p.m.
  Mr. John McKay: This debate has been very interesting. We have heard a lot about what we should do, and the way we should do it. There has been a strain of morality running through the speeches; but, however good that may be, I must point out that one must have sufficient intelligence to use one's strength in the right direction. I wondered how the Chancellor was moving in this respect. He made, a great appeal, publicised throughout the country, to industrial magnates to try to bring about a reduction in prices. He did not succeed. The spirit of good will did not exist. One wonders whether the new taxation on the engineers of industry is due to the feeling that these people could do better, and that now is the time to force them to meet the Chancellor's proposals.
  One thing puzzles me. I presume that if the Chancellor had been successful in his appeal it would have meant an increase in purchasing power for the working man and the rest of the community. We now find, after only a few weeks, that there is a cry for economy and talk of an international crisis in the balance of payments. We all realise that it is necessary to keep the balance of trade in its right perspective. We have been looking at the economy from the point of view of trade, and one begins to realise the needs of our people. When the Chancellor appeals to people to get prices down, he knows whether they can do it within reason. Nevertheless his appeal cut no ice.
  For many years I have felt that the industrialists of this country are not influenced by moral considerations. This has been emphasised today. Industrialists go into business for profit, and one can understand that, but if they are patriotic and are doing well in industry surely one would expect a limit to be

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  imposed on the amount of profit that they make.
  Is there no moral quality which influences these people when they are considering profits? Is there no quality within them which prompts them to put a brake on prices? Do they ever think, "I am getting plenty of profit and I am doing well. There is no urgency for me or my firm to make more money by way of profits. I am producing goods that are required. I am getting far more profit than I require to lead a good life"? The answer is that they do not.
  For many years profits have continued to rise. There seems to be no limit. The question of cutting prices does not seem to enter into their considerations. That is why the Chancellor, aware of the tremendous profits that are being made, made his appeal for lower prices, but, as I said, he was unsuccessful.
  The Chancellor has now come down on the other side and increased the Profits Tax from 10 per cent. to 12½ per cent. That is a substantial increase and there must have been a good reason for it. However, we will leave it to the Tory back benchers to fight out that problem. I suppose that that is the nub of their agitation. We will let them carry on to see what they can do about it, but let them at the same time consider the welfare of the country. If hon. Gentlemen opposite think that they are more patriotic than hon. Members on this side of the Committee, this will be a test of their patriotism. Are they prepared to co-operate with the Chancellor and give him some encouragement? Are they prepared to tell him that he is doing something for the good of the country? The Chancellor believes that he is, otherwise he would not have done it.
  The Chancellor may have made a mistake. He has made mistakes in the past, but to me this is a matter of principle. Today we have men in many occupations who work hard—married men who earn about £8 10s. a week, or about £440 a year. While I have no objection to people living on invested income and getting the same amount of money as a man who works hard every day of the week, there is a principle involved here. When one is considering giving relief to people, particularly to people who receive an income of about £440 a year from money that has been invested, it is
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  out of tone and bad judgment to so make the tax exemptions that the married wage earner is treated in a worse way than the man of 65 years who gets his money from interest on invested capital. A man who earns about £8 9s. a week does not get the same treatment as the man or woman who has money invested.
  When the individual who has invested money becomes 65 he gets his money net, but when the wage-earner receives £440 a year, a low-paid married man, despite his low wage he has special liabilities and penalties attaching to that £440. There is about £26 in insurance, £13 in taxation, at least, and £13 on expenses attached to his job. The very low wage-earner takes home about £52 less than a person living on invested capital. When a change is made which is favourable to people who perhaps have £12,000 invested, they should not be given an advantage over a man who earns the same amount in wages as they receive by way of investment income. By some method we ought so to arrange the taxation system that that man takes home at least as much as those who are living on investments.
  I put down a Question on this matter asking how much it would cost to help such a man so that he could take home more than he does at the moment. In the reply, I was told that it would take at least £100 more personal allowance. The weakness seems to be that if the Chancellor gave £100 extra allowance to that man all the other people would have to get an extra £100. No one can make me believe that the Chancellor does not know of ways and means to get over that. Qualifications could be introduced in the taxation system to get over difficulties of that kind. Two or three years ago, by a special piece of legislation which had never been introduced before, these people were exempted. The Chancellor could have arranged for wages earners similarly to be exempt so that until they went beyond a particular limit they would get an annual allowance of £100.
  Taxation is a knotty question but our minds should be more concentrated on the social necessities of the people. We should be thinking about what has to be paid in National Assistance and such matters. Is it a system we should uphold that when such allowances are given in

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  National Insurance more than I million people who have paid into insurance have to go to National Assistance to enable them to live?
  So far as I can judge the psychology of the Conservative Party and of the Government, they seem to delight in the principles they are now adopting, or applying. They stand hard and fast on the question of pensions. They say that we can get over the difficulty of poor unfortunate men and women who cannot live on their pensions alone by making them go to National Assistance in order to get something worthwhile. When we are discussing these things, I do not think it right to concentrate on the question of pensioners. Many men are worn down in health and are off work for six or twelve months. Surely they need as much help as pensioners.
  There is a lot said nowadays about savings. Savings are a great instrument to help the Government to get money in order to meet the needs of the country, but the more we examine savings the more intricate the matter becomes. The financial system of the country has so worked in past generations that all sorts of recompenses are given to various individuals for the amount of saving they can make. The Government ask for loans and give 4 per cent. or 5 per cent. tax-free to encourage saving. If a poor man goes to a bank he gets as much interest for his money as does a rich man in the same department. He will not pay so much in, but on whatever he pays in in the same department he gets the same interest as the rich man.
  There are other ways of saving. There is the life endowment system, which generally pays 3s. 6d. in the £, 17 per cent. A tremendous amount of money goes into life endowment. Then there is the great national social machine—not a life endowment or an individual transaction with a company —which we have set up since 1946. No doubt that is a great saving instrument. It is acknowledged as such. Do we find that the poor man, the low wage-earner, when he puts his money into National Insurance gets the same tax relief on his payments towards pension as better-paid people? Not at all. We have a most peculiar system which has worked
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  itself into the economy of the country. It has been carried for generations. Since 1946 it has still carried on, and most people think it is justified within the National Insurance system.
  What will happen under the new graded pensions scheme which is to be introduced in 1961–62 under the National Insurance Act, 1958? I am not sure about the figures, but I think that about 8 million people will be affected. All those earning from £16 a week upwards will be receiving a tax relief, every week, in respect of their contributions. These 8 million people within the National Insurance Scheme will be receiving tax relief at the rate of 2s. 6d. a week. Under the ordinary scheme we are paying about 5s. a week towards retirement pension, but when the new Act comes into force, these men will have to pay more. They will be paying perhaps 8s. a week as a contribution to pensions. Thus, instead of Income Tax relief on 5s., they will get relief on about 8s. a week; they will get 2s. 6d, a week in tax relief on their pensions contributions.
  Mr. Amory: If the hon. Member is referring to the comment I made yesterday on the proposed method of dealing with tax allowances, I do not think he has fully understood this proposed method.
  Mr. McKay: I am not discussing that point at all.
  Mr. Amory: Then perhaps the hon. Member can make clear to me what he is discussing.
  Mr. McKay: I am referring to the graded pensions scheme and its effect on savings. It will mean that the Chancellor will get more savings. But he will also have to pay more in tax reliefs. I was given a Parliamentary Answer on this point a week ago showing that employers receive in tax relief 51 per cent. of the amount of the contributions which they pay into the National Insurance Scheme. This gives them a return of £143 million in tax relief on their contributions. There is also tax relief on the amounts paid by the ordinary contributors. Some get nothing, but collectively they receive £40 million in tax relief in respect of their contributions.

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  I have put a lot of study into this question and I know what I am talking about. It is an intricate matter. An hon. Member cannot look at a subject like this for just an hour and then think that he knows all about it. It takes weeks of study to understand the problem and to see how the situation could be revised by various methods which would involve only a little extra money from the Exchequer. These taxation reliefs could be reduced.
  When employers are compelled to enter the new graduated pensions scheme—the new social scheme—they will say that the scheme is costing them the amount of money which they are paying into it. In fact, as the Economic Secretary to the Treasury said a week ago, they are getting a return of 51 per cent. of their contributions in tax relief. Yet under this system millions of people in the poorer sections of the community, who are paying no Income Tax, will get no relief in respect of their contributions. That is not moral at all. The Chancellor may claim that contributors are saving this money, that they are getting no benefit from it until they are 65 and that, on that ground, we provide for tax relief, but this question needs careful examination. I am not speaking from a party point of view. I am thinking of the retired, the sick, the unemployed and others who are handicapped by illness.
  It is one of the country's greatest problems that more than a million of our people, who for years have paid into the National Insurance Scheme, now have to go for National Assistance. Many of them do not like that. It is a problem which needs serious attention by both parties.
  Let us break away from the traditional methods of saving. At present we have the many occupational pensioners who are receiving a big taxation return. The big executives in industry are getting a return which is bigger still. In other words, they are getting their pensions on the cheap—and they are big pensions, ten times as big as those which the ordinary workers get. As a country we must give our people some security. In any case let us make provision for every man and woman who is insured under future schemes. Let us so revise those schemes that there is at least a basic provision, far more than National Assistance level,
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  for even the lowest paid of our people. Let us take all these people off National Assistance. At present it costs us £47·5 million to pay National Assistance to all these people who are sick, unemployed or otherwise in need. By revising the scheme, bringing it up to date and into line with the social desires of the people, we could straightaway make a saving of about £47 million on National Assistance.
  I have been working on this subject for months and in many ways. The traditions of the trade union movement are a brake upon any attempts to make changes in this respect. Both parties must examine this matter afresh. Let us take up all new ideas which may lead to advance. It is a great national necessity to bring into operation a scheme such as I have outlined. All the talk there has been about pensions would make a long story, but something could be done soon, in a year or two, when the new Act is implemented. Let us make the system rest on a great scheme which would cost the State scarcely any more than what has hitherto been proposed, in the new Act, and, within it, provide for a graded pension scheme in the same way for those earning above £10 a week.
  I do not wish to discuss the new Act now, but I must say that it is a useless instrument for introducing the ideal social security scheme which would free all people from the need to ask for National Assistance because the basic level would be high enough. A graded scheme operated more or less on the lines of the new Act could be introduced with much greater benefits. I am quite satisfied about ways and means of doing it. I have put months of study into the matter, and I have determined to make it my personal endeavour to persuade our own people to agree, if they possibly can, to move in this direction. There are obstacles in the trade union movement. There are old traditions, but they must be broken through.
  There is £1,500 million credited to the nation's insurance system. How many more thousands of pounds of capital do we want to lie there, helping the Government, no doubt, but not being properly used in a good national scheme? How much more capital do we want to accumulate for the purpose— £50,000 million? That is the direction in which we are going.

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  The Labour Party scheme was not a good scheme, in my view, in the sense of encouraging people to take part. There were many things in it which people did not understand. We must examine the whole thing again. All I have attempted to do is to encourage a little thought. I have tried to show how a reasonable scheme could operate successfully. I shall have to put it to my own people, and I know that I shall have as much difficulty with them as I have with anybody else. But I hope for the best, and I conclude with the hope that what I have said will lead to further interest in the subject and encourage a move towards the betterment of our social security system as a whole.
  8.25 p.m.
  Mr. Leonard Cleaver: I hope that the hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. McKay) will not consider me, a very young Member of the House, impertinent if I say that we always very much appreciate listening to him and appreciate the sincerity with which he presents his case, but I shall not follow him in the whole of his argument. There are, however, three points I wish to take up.
  The hon. Gentleman said that he felt it right that people in industry should do something for the good of their country. Industry consists of shareholders, management and workpeople, and out of every £ of profit earned by work people and management, over 10s. goes into the National Exchequer. It would be a very sorry day for this country if industry were bankrupt and the Exchequer received no revenue.
  Mr. McKay: When I spoke of the contributions which make up the 51 per cent., I emphasised that they were treated as expenses. This results in extra profit to the company.
  Mr. Cleaver: I was pointing out that the Chancellor takes a very good rake-off out of all profits earned by industry and that, without it, we should be in great difficulty.
  The hon. Gentleman referred also to the Profits Tax. Industry at the moment is booming, thank goodness. There is nothing to be ashamed of in that. By his proposals, my right hon. Friend intends to tax industry because it is
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  doing so well. That is another contribution which industry makes even though—if I may use the expression— it may "bellyache" a bit about it. Of course, no manufacturer likes paying taxes any more than I do, but it is a contribution made for the good of the country.
  The hon. Gentleman may know more than I do about those who earn over £20,000 a year. I am quite certain that there are none in my constituency and one could count the Surtax payers there on the fingers of one hand. The hon. Gentleman should not overstress the position of those who earn such incomes as that because they are not the most important people. Those who interest me most are the middle-class and working people who keep our country going.
  Mr. McKay: I was not speaking of Surtax payers at all. I spoke of someone who had £12,000 invested and had a return of £440. I pointed out that, in that way, such people were given more "take home" results than the ordinary wage earner on a regular amount of money but with no capital behind him.
  Mr. Cleaver: The hon. Gentleman should remember the allowances which the Chancellor gave in his last Budget to the old and to those with moderate incomes who had just retired. Let us also not forget that there are allowances which apply to everyone, and particularly to the poorer members of the community, with extremely good effect.
  I shall not follow the hon. Gentleman in his long discussion on pensions, but I must ask him to remember that the House of Commons has agreed that National Assistance should be paid. "National Assistance" has become a dirty term, but it is part of our social services and it is up to everyone on both sides of this Committee to see that every old-age pensioner who needs it applies for and receives it because he is entitled to it.
  I welcome the Budget because, in my view, it will help the industrial community of Britain. Before I develop this argument, I wish to emphasise something which may be known to the Committee, namely, that Kidderminster is not the capital of the Midlands. My constituency is in the City of Birmingham. I am very proud of that fact.

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  In Birmingham there are 1,500 trades. There Is immense knowledge of commercial and industrial undertakings and, except in very minor instances, there are good relations between workpeople and management. Although I agree that Government expenditure should be curtailed on every possible occasion, the recommendations of my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) have been put forward at the wrong time. I support a number of them, but if they were all applied to this Budget we should once again have rip-roaring inflation.
  The Committee knows that there is only 1 per cent. unemployment in my district. We are proud of that and we hope that that situation will continue. We do not object in the slightest if industries, such as the motor industry, are transferred to the constituency of the right hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn) and to Scotland. We are only too pleased that that should happen. That is part of Government policy. I hope that it will be borne in mind that when large industries, like the motor industry, or portions of them, are transferred to other areas, great benefits reflect in the subsidiary industries. That has happened in Birmingham and it is largely due to that that we have the present employment situation. I hope that that will come about in other parts of the country.
  I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Economic Secretary chose as the subject for his speech the vital point in the Budget concerning the damping down of inflation. We in Birmingham know that we shall not continue as we are unless the £ is stable and unless there is no more inflation. That is absolutely vital, and it should not be forgotten by any Chancellor. We realise that our local trade is very dependent on stability. If our home trade gets out of gear, it will be difficult for our exporters and, in due course, for our manufacturers to maintain the present standard of living and full employment.
  The history of the reasons for the Budget is well known to the Committee. We all know that the returns from shipping adversely affected our balance of payments. We know that revenues from oil were disappointing. It is a rather
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  Gilbertian situation that the heavy demand for increased stocks which is being brought about by the Government's sensible industrial policy has affected adversely our balance of payments position, owing to its timing. In addition, consumer demand has been growing too rapidly.
  There has been a great deal of talk during this debate about election promises. I will not go into the election promises which were made about pensions and which are well known to both sides of the Committee, but no one has mentioned the promise which my party made and which is the reason why the Chancellor is now sitting on the Front Bench. He said that he would try to damp down inflation, whatever happened. That is the situation in which, unfortunately, he finds himself today. My right hon. Friend has had to act, but, fortunately for all of us, he has acted soon enough. He has not let the matter drag on. He has not considered the newspaper headlines. He has done the right thing by the country.
  Mr. Richard Marsh: Our objection was not concerned with the election. Our objection to the conduct of hon. Members opposite during the election was that they based their entire campaign on the cry that this country was very prosperous and that everything in the economic garden was lovely. It is now quite clear that, even at the time of the General Election, this country was already beginning to find itself in difficulties.
  Mr. Cleaver: I can only say what I campaigned for myself. The point I made was that we would maintain stability because every housewife and workman in my constituency wanted it maintained. We did not want rip-roaring inflation. That is the point that I made.
  I quite agree that it might be that in Birmingham there will be more cheers when Aston Villa gets into the First Division than if my right hon. Friend adds £50 million to the balance of payments. I agree that if Birmingham City is relegated, it may be that
  "All the birds of the air
  will fall
  "a-sighing and a-sobbing"
  in my district. However, I hope that my right hon. Friend will not allow that

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  to deter him in any way from the sensible measures which he has brought forward. We are here talking about people's bread and butter, and if my right hon. Friend had not stopped the tendency towards inflation we should have unemployment in Birmingham. Industrialists and exporters would find it more difficult to sell their goods abroad.
  The one thing that we do not want in any section of the community is a devaluation of the £. If we were to have another devaluation the people who would be hardest hit are those on fixed incomes and pensions. We have heard so many times of the old problem of too much money chasing too few goods. We have heard of the spiral of wages and prices. In my city we now have the problem of jobs chasing too few men. There are simply not enough men.
  A married man with two children who earns £1,000 a year draws about £939 net. If my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer allows the cost of living to rise by one point, the increased cost to that man would be about £9 a year. If my right hon. Friend wanted to adjust this, he would have to grant some kind of Income Tax allowance of, probably, over £25. That is the measure of it.
  If the 80s. a week old-age pensioner were to face a 1 per cent. increase in the cost of living, he would suffer to the tune of 8d. per week. If the cost of living started to go up and increased by as much as 5 per cent., that same pensioner would be 3s. 4d. a week worse off. In view of these figures and of the fear of people on modest incomes and pensions, it is absolutely right for my right hon. Friend to give first priority in his Budget to dealing with inflation.
  We Conservative back benchers from the City of Birmingham have been careful to check the opinion of local industrialists. Let us be frank about it. One never finds an industrialist who likes to pay out his "brass". If he were to be taxed more, he would grouse. Industrialists, however, have much more common sense than they are sometimes given credit for, and the observations which I have had from them are to the effect that the Budget is not too disappointing, although they are not too pleased.
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  One industrialist, in referring to Purchase Tax, says that "a touch of the brake "is" putting it mildly". Another says that on the whole it is a very fair Budget. It is, in fact, a fair Budget. The wealthy companies are doing well— thank heaven they are—and they are being taxed; but the public, faced with an increase in the tax on tobacco, can avoid it if they wish. Another industrialist says that the Budget is an extremely fair one. That is the attitude we should adopt towards it. I have been in touch with the members of the chamber of commerce and with the National Union of Manufacturers to ensure that I do not mislead the Committee.
  I should like to make a few references to my right hon. Friend's proposals to raise revenue. Undoubtedly, the removal of the tax on cinemas is welcomed, certainly by us in the city and also, I think, by back benchers on all sides. There is a welcome also for my right hon. Friend's easement concerning post-war credits and his encouragement to savings.
  I have to disclose my interest as an accountant and I should like to refer to my right hon. Friend's revenue proposals. Those relating to housekeepers and widowers are welcomed by all of us, but it has always struck me as being most peculiar that when any tax allowance is introduced, whoever recommends these things to the Chancellor always thinks in terms of such small amounts and never makes them into multiples of £52.
  I have had experience of looking after a large wages office and I know how much the people depend on their weekly pay packets. If the allowances could be given in weekly terms not only would this help the workman himself but it would be of great help to those who run automatic machines and the like. There is no objection, as far as I have heard, to the Chancellor's proposals to stop any form of tax evasion. I think that, by and large, British industry is, so to speak, clean, but let us see that we eradicate any tendency that we find in the direction of tax evasion.
  With regard to the proposals about losses in one trade being set off against profits in another, particularly in the case of farming, I would remind the Committee that that is not the only case in which that provision might apply. There

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  are others which I have known in my own experience where other activities are carried on and where there is not the slightest chance of making a profit, and which, in equity, should be stopped. Some people run theatres in that way, some people run railways, and while I have no objection to both, I do not think that the public should be invited indirectly to subsidise them.
  Another thing to which I hope the Chancellor will refer is the repeal of Section 142 of the Finance Act, 1952. I think this is the old Section 34, and during my examination in order to become a chartered accountant, I had a question on the operation of Section 34, and I have forgotten what answer I gave. I presume that the Chancellor is aiming at the case in which a rump company can be bought up, or the registration of a company with a large loss can be bought, and when the wealthy company has purchased it, it can start setting off the losses against the profits. At the same time, if I may utter a word of caution, there are some quite genuine cases in which I cannot see why such a set-off should not be allowed.
  Taking an exceptional case, or, possibly, an ordinary case in my city, we might have a man, for example, who has a grocery business and who is also running a fish and chips shop, one making a loss and the other making a profit. From his point of view, I cannot see why he should not be able to set off the one against the other.
  Mr. Amory: In reply to my hon. Friend, I think he will find that I am not intending to stop a set-off of that sort. It is limited by Section 142, but that Section, I think, is no longer required in order to provide for a reasonable set-off. I think he will find that the situation is quite satisfactory.
  Mr. Cleaver: I am very grateful for my right hon. Friend's statement, which will very much help many manufacturers concerned on that point.
  I should like to say that, of course, there are objections to the increased Profits Tax, but we have to remember that the balance of the Budget must be maintained, and all parties on this occasion must make a contribution to the difficulties which we are in or the difficulties which we may be in. There-
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  fore, although there may be objections from the manufacturers, I do not think that the increase is unreasonable. On Estate Duty, we are very grateful to the Chancellor for the easements he has made, though I have always regarded Estate Duty as an unsatisfactory tax. It is like dealing in death, as far as I am concerned, and I would only express the wish that the Chancellor had been able to graduate the inter vivos scale by steps of 20 per cent., because in that way the people who have to pay out would feel that they were getting a fair deal.
  May I say, on the question of taxation, which I think is the most important part of the Budget, that I have in my position met a great many people in all walks of life who have asked me to help them with regard to tax matters. Unlike what has been suggested from so many benches tonight, nearly every time I find that they say, "I do not want to pay any more than I have got to pay, but I do not want to pay any less." That is the basis on which the operation of taxation rests, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will bear that in mind when the Finance Bill comes along.
  Finally, we welcome the Budget. We hope that it will do what it is intended to do and will prevent an inflationary situation arising, and I therefore support it.
  8.45 p.m.
  Mr. R. E. Prentice: The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Mr. Cleaver) said he was supporting the Budget. Although he got one or two cheers towards the end of his speech from what, I gather, are rebellious quarters on the other side of the Committee, I think one can count him on balance as being one of the hon. Members opposite who support the Chancellor. I have sat here throughout the debate totting up the score, and the hon. Member seemed to redress the balance which, up to the time of his speech, had been rather heavily against the Chancellor. On this side of the Committee we cannot help taking a certain malicious delight in splits on these matters among hon. Members opposite.
  Without wishing to stoke up the fires too much, I must say that I was very intrigued when I listened to the speech earlier today by the right hon. Member

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  for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft). It was one of the rare occasions on which he addresses us, and he spoke with eloquence, solemnity and dignity, but it seemed to me that he did not really say anything at all.
  Mr. Hirst: Good gracious. The hon. Member must be deaf.
  Mr. Prentice: I would suggest to the right hon. Member, and to the hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale), who made a similar speech though in a minor key, and to other hon. Gentlemen opposite, that if they are to make these attacks on the level of Government expenditure they have a duty to this Committee and the country to say what they want to cut down. The right hon. Gentleman gave a list of Departments which are spending more. So did the hon. Member for Harwich, but neither of them gave any specific proposal to this Committee as to what items ought to be cut, although that is a duty which rests upon those who make these criticisms.
  The trouble on the benches opposite seems to be that this is a Budget which suffers from lack of design. It is not a Conservative Budget in the orthodox sense. It is certainly not a Socialist Budget, although it has been called that by some hon. rebels on the other side. It is a Budget which, from whatever point of view we look at it, is one which does a bit of good here and little bit of good there but which does not inspire anyone. I agree with the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. C. Osborne), who called it dull, dismal and uninspiring.
  While listening to the Chancellor's speech on Monday, I was reminded of the Gracious Speech last November, because there again the Government's policy had no design and contained no major legislative proposals of any kind. It seems to me that both in their approach to legislation and in their approach to the economy the Government are suffering from the same dilemma. They have won power by securing a signal election victory but they have not yet decided what to do with it. They dare not be orthodox Conservatives, because to be that would be to invite defeat at the next election. On the other hand, they are afraid not to use their power in a Conservative
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  direction because if they do not do that they will incur the anger of some rebels on the other side of the Committee and up and down the country in Conservative organisations. That is the dilemma they face.
  One thing which is healthy about what is happening in this Budget debate and which, presumably, will go on happening in debates on the Finance Bill is that this dilemma in the Conservative ranks is coming more into the open. I hope that it will destroy the image of the Conservative Party as a united party and of the Labour Party as a party of splits. [Interruption.] Well, yes, because the disagreements in the Conservative Party are just as fundamental, and probably at this moment more fundamental, than any disagreements in the Labour Party.
  Mr. Hirst: We have no Clause 4.
  Mr. Prentice: In both parties there are differences of opinion. It is much healthier if those differences of opinion, which are public differences, are argued in public. In so far as this debate has shown that happening on the other side of the Committee, that is a healthy development, something which we on our side welcome for party reasons, but something which we welcome also as good democrats. There is no reason why any large party representative of the public should not have differences of opinion. Members of Parliament are not and should not be a flock of sheep. Let us see these differences come into the open. We can afford this warfare on the other side.
  I should like to refer to two items in the Chancellor's speech which I do not think have been mentioned so far. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the state of the economy last year and spoke of the decrease in unemployment. He referred to the existing figure of 413,000 unemployed and used what to me was an extraordinary phrase when he said:
  "These are good figures." — [OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 36.]
  I want to remind him and the Committee that, until it started growing in 1958, only in two years since the end of the war has the figure of unemployment stood at a higher rate than it stands today.
  Those two years were 1947, when there was an exceptional fuel crisis, and 1952

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  which was the first year of a Conservative Government. The general unemployment figure has been below 400,000 and in many years under both Governments it has been below 300,000. I suggest to hon. Members opposite that it is no good going on being smug about an unemployment figure of 413,000.
  Hon. Members opposite always speak as though all that remained of unemployment were one or two localities in which there was a special local problem. Adding these localities together, they cover a considerable area of the United Kingdom and represent a national problem. I speak as the representative of a constituency which has full employment, but, looking at it nationally, 100,000 unnecessarily unemployed people are 100,000 cases of hardship and frustration. This is a tremendous waste of the country's economy which needs tackling with far greater urgency than has been displayed so far.
  The other matter which has not been mentioned so far in the debate is what was said by the Chancellor when he was discussing the prospects of expenditure and income below-the-line for the coming year and referred to the sale of publicly-owned steel assets. He said that it was expected that in the coming year this would be accelerated and that there would be an income as a result. This is something which we ought to debate this week. It would not be a Finance Bill point but it is a point concerned with the economy and with the general structure of the Budget.
  On this side of the Committee we are entitled to challenge the Government by asking what possible justification there is in the public interest for the selling off of these public assets. We realise that this is part of the Conservative myth and that there are doctrinaire reasons in the party opposite for doing this, but can hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite give us one reason for it in the public interest? What good will it do the steel industry and the nation if Richard Thomas and Baldwins has a number of shareholders imposed on top of it?
  In the two years or so leading up to the General Election we saw a great deal of expensive publicity from the steel industry, paid for, of course, by the customers, telling us how well the industry
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  was doing. These were achievements which we were glad to read about, but they were the achievements of the workers at all levels, including the management. They were achievements to which the shareholders contributed nothing. The present shareholders do not control the steel industry. They run none of the risks with their capital.
  There are none of the classical excuses for shareholders in the steel industry today. Shareholders are redundant, but they continue to make profits from other people's work and capital gains, helped along by subventions from the Treasury. I hope that some spokesman for the Government will tell the Committee and the country, leaving aside the doctrinaire views of the Conservative Party, what there is which in the public interest justifies this move in the steel industry.
  There are other matters on which I should have liked to say something but in the time left to me I will refer to pensions and the omission from the Chancellor's statement of any proposals in that direction. When the Economic Secretary opened the debate, he said that the Budget speech was not necessarily the occasion for making proposals about pensions, but we are entitled to ask the Government, when is the right occasion? When will there be some statement about pensions?
  I do not want to repeat all the arguments, which are well-known, for improving the lot of pensioners—the retired, the chronic sick, the unemployed, the widows and all the other groups. But I appeal to the other side of the Committee for some sense of honour in this matter, because what was said in the Conservative election manifesto and by Conservative candidates gave the impression that something would be done to help the pensioners early in the new Parliament if a Conservative majority was elected.
  Those who phrased the manifesto were careful to avoid a specific pledge, but nevertheless the implication was there. The differences which exist between the two parties on the question of pensions were blurred in the public mind by the phrase in the manifesto which said:
  "We pledge ourselves to ensure that pensioners continue to share in the good things which a steadily expanding economy will bring."

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  It is now more than two years since pension rates were adjusted. In those two years the national income has risen. What is to be done, and when, about this problem? I have come to the depressing conclusion—and I hope I am wrong—that the clue to the Government's intentions on pensions is to be found in the National Insurance Act passed in the last Session of the last Parliament.
  That Act lays down a new system of financing pensions and a new system of grading them. It contains complicated figures and calculations, all based on the 50s. pension. It is to come into force in April, 1961, and my inference from that is that the Government have no intention of improving pensions before April, 1961, or for some considerable time after that.
  That should be either confirmed or rejected by the Government. They should be fair with the nation and state what they intend. If they intend not to do anything for the pensioners then there really ought to be a revolt on the benches behind them. Many of the hon. Members opposite who won marginal seats did so because the impression was given that something would be done to honour the pledge in the manifesto. Many Members owe their election to that fact, and they know that people of all classes want the Government to do something about this.
  On Monday evening B.B.C. television interviewed people outside Victoria Station and asked them their reaction to the Budget. All but one of those who appeared in the programme said that the one thing they regretted was that it contained no proposals to improve pensions. This is something on which there really ought to be a revolt of conscience among the people who support the Government.
  I was very glad to listen to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland), and he made many of the points I wanted to make about the comparison between the economic performance of this country in the last few years and that of other countries. What amazes me is the complacency of the Government about this matter, and the fact that they convinced the majority of the British people, as evidenced at the election, that we need
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  not be ambitious in this matter and that we could set our sights low.
  What is meant by the slogan, "Life is better under the Conservatives"? Better than when? It is eight and a half years since they came into power, and any industrial country in that time makes progress, but why has British progress been so poor compared with the progress of other industrial nations? A question I want to emphasise is why is the progress of the Western world generally so poor compared with that of the Soviet Union?
  What we ought to be getting from the Government at this moment is a recognition of this problem and a clarion call to action, asking the nation to do better, making plans and giving a lead towards improving our production so that we can really compare with what other countries are managing to do. In Soviet Russia the national income is now rising by about 10 per cent. per year. It is based on a massive degree of investment in capital goods and a massive investment in education, and that is based in turn on austerity in the consumption of consumer goods which in turn is based upon a political dictatorship which people in Western countries would never accept.
  It is just not good enough for us to sit back and say that our people will not accept these things and that, therefore, we shall be by-passed by the Soviet Union. It has become almost a cliche to say that in the years ahead the cold war will be fought more in terms of economic rivalry and political propaganda than in military terms. Is the Western world to allow the Soviet bloc to by-pass it, to invest more and more of its money in under-developed countries without our being able to afford to match that investment? If that is so, the democratic ideals in which we believe will perish in time, because people who are hungry will not worry about the niceties of political freedom, and Soviet influence is bound to follow from that process.
  Therefore, the most important charge of all against the Chancellor and the Government this week is that they are complacent about these matters, that they give no lead to the country and that they are not taking charge of our economy and controlling its assets so that

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  we may make the best use of our assets for the good of our country by providing fair shares for our people and so that we may play our part in the world.
  9.2 p.m.
  Mr. George Darling: I notice that the hon. Member for Manchester, Moss Side (Mr. Watts) rose to speak when I did. I would begin by apologising to him for cutting him out in this way. I would merely say that it has happened to me on two occasions as a back bencher and that I know precisely what he is thinking and thoroughly agree with him.
  Earlier today I had a great deal of sympathy with the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) and the hon. Member for Pudsey (Mr. Hiley). but now that they have made their maiden speeches—excellent 'speeches they were, too—I can only envy them.
  I have had to examine the Budget on this occasion in greater detail than has been previously my custom. As a back bencher, like most back benchers who take part in our debates, I used to try to take part, not always very successfully, just to make one or two small points. However, the more I have examined this Budget the more interesting it has become to me. As my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) has just said, it has revealed the deep differences which exist in the Conservative Party on many of these fiscal and financial issues.
  It will also, I think, be an historic Budget, because the historian will mark it as the first more or less public demonstration by the Conservative Party of its acceptance of the fact that to maintain full employment and the Welfare State in an expanding economy without inflation one has to inject doses of Socialism into the economy. The Conservatives have been doing this, of course, in a half-hearted way for some time; they have not been able to escape doing it. But their views on the matter never have been revealed so clearly as in the Budget and in the debate on the Budget.
  As my hon. Friend has just more or less said, the Budget is like the curate's egg—good in parts. The good parts from our point of view are those which are the result of proposals made from
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  this side of the House of Commons from time to time. However, hon. Members opposite who support the Government in these matters and the Government themselves have, with obvious reluctance, come to the conclusion that they must have some Socialism in the Budget. The Government's Socialist injections are rather weak. They are fumbling about and they are making some awful mistakes, with some of which I shall try to deal shortly.
  There is a feeling among hon. Members opposite—and it has already been expressed—that if we must have Socialism, even weak doses of it, in this way, it is much better to leave the introduction of Socialist measures to the Socialists, which is something we would very much like to undertake. The astonished looks which came over hon. Members opposite when the Chancellor went on to reveal what to them were his somewhat strange proposals made me think that he had missed an opportunity of adding to the Revenue. I felt that a tax on tranquillisers would bring him in a substantial revenue.
  I was very interested in the opening remarks of the President of the Board of Trade yesterday when he said that hon. Members on this side of the Committee were rather naive not to go into a full scale attack on the Budget. He did not explain what he meant by that, which was rather curious, as it was the first time that I have heard the right hon. Gentleman make a statement which he did not proceed thereupon to explain.
  If he meant that our approach to the Budget and our acceptance of so much of it would fail to allow us to make any political capital out of it, he was greatly mistaken. We have been already presented with all the political gifts we need in the reports of meetings of hon. Members opposite upstairs immediately after the Budget. Incidentally, it is pleasant to us to see that the bloodhounds of the Press, having smelled the gore that was being spilled, are now turning their attentions to the private meetings of the party opposite.
  We have had some political capital also from the speeches of the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorney-croft) and the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). I am sure that we all enjoyed the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. Under my breath I was

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  cheering him at many points, especially when he referred to defence expenditure. It has always seemed peculiar to me that many items in a Budget are cut down almost to pounds, shillings and pence, but that when we are dealing with defence expenditure £1 million here or £1 million there seems to make no difference to the big totals with which we have to deal. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that there are economies to be made in defence expenditure which would not weaken our position. We are all agreed about the need for expenditure on defence, but I am sure that these large figures should be studied with far more care than they have been getting up to now.
  I also agree with the right hon. Gentleman that any Government must view the economy as a whole instead of just adding together the claims of each individual spending Department. I profoundly agree with him that the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other Ministers ought to get down to the job of planning the country's spending. That is the kind of planning which we have been advocating from this side of the Committee for a long time while hon. Members opposite have been saying that they do not want that sort of planned economy.
  Like my hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland), I parted company with the right hon. Gentleman when, as my hon. Friend put it, he produced his emotional objections to public expenditure. My hon. Friend explained our views far more clearly and eloquently than I could. His was an excellent speech, and there is no need therefore for me again to cover the ground.
  The right hon. Gentleman is now in a rather difficult and false position when he justifies, as he must on occasions like this, the restrictive measures which he introduced to check inflation when he was Chancellor. Some of those measures, at least in our view, were anti-social, that is, when dealing with what he said was the need to restrain wages, the right hon. Gentleman had to pick out an industry which was under his influence to use it as an example for wage restraint. Unfortunately, that was an industry in which the men had low wages.
  I am sure that it was never the right hon. Gentleman's intention, either then
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  or now, to say that the railways of this country should be run on cheap labour. But he was in a difficult position. This is again a point where we part company because we hold strongly to the view that we cannot put this country straight and we certainly cannot maintain its greatness by promoting that kind of social injustice. It was social injustice, in our view, to keep a low-wage industry stuck to that low-wage level.
  I agree, although the hon. Member is not present, with some of the less declamatory observations of the hon. Member for Kidderminster. I agree with him, as I am sure every hon. Member of the Committee will, that we are an overtaxed nation. There is no question about that. He implied in his criticism of the Government that they had so misjudged our affairs, not just this year but over a succession of years, as to make it impossible for substantial tax reductions to be made. The hon. Member asked for tax reductions, but that was part of the propaganda operation. I would prefer to agree with the right hon. Gentleman that, in the circumstances of today, the tax reductions for which the hon. Member asked are impossible. When the hon. Member for Kidderminster went on to criticise the nationalised industries and to say that the Government's troubles were largely the result of over-investment in public enterprises, I felt that he did not expect us to take him seriously. That was just propaganda.
  I remember when I first got up as a back bencher some eight years ago and said that the only way to avoid a coal and fuel crisis, which I felt would come from a too great dependence on imported oil, was to make full use of our indigenous fuel resources and to put a great deal of money quickly into the building of carbonisation plants so that we could get full value from the coal and a great increase in gas production. I suggested then that we should put the country on a gas grid so that as many industries as possible could take gas for their power fuel, which is a possible technical development.
  I was going to ask the hon. Member for Kidderminster Whether I was correct in my recollection that when I was putting forward those views he supported me with his usual vociferous "Hear, hears".

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  I was pleading then for an expansion in public expenditure for what I thought was a perfectly good technical purpose which, if carried out then, would have stood us in good stead now that we are faced with a fuel crisis.
  We have had debates over the last few years on electricity supply and on gas supply, and in all those debates the hon. Member for Kidderminster has taken part. But never once have I heard him suggest that we should hold up the development of our electricity supply service. What we have to understand in these discussions on public expenditure for these public services is that our great industrial expansion has been made possible by the supply of cheap electric power on an expanding scale. We must continue that expansion of cheap electric power for the development of our industries. If we are to get rid of this tight situation in which we have no slack in the economy and no free or unused industrial capacity we must have far more cheap electric power than we have today. We can get it only by building more power stations; it does not come out of the air.
  Therefore, to suggest that we should cut down expenditure on the nationalised industries is completely out of accord with the picture with which we are presented today—the picture of a country whose industrial resources are stretched to the limit. We must have far more investment in these industries in order that our industrial expansion can continue.
  The same argument is true of transport and the railways. We must have a modern railway system in order that it can sustain our expanding economy. We can get it only by expenditure, and that expenditure is very heavy. Those hon. Members who travel to Manchester on the line from Euston day by day see the job of electrification that is being done there. This will eventually mean raising every bridge from Manchester to Euston, with new girders and all the expenditure involved in putting in the overhead cables. We cannot put all that stuff in at a cost of 1d. a foot. It is enormously expensive, but if the country wants a modern transport system it must pay for it. We need it, and the sooner we get it the better.
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  The hon. Member for Kidderminster has threatened us with an attack on the nationalised industries in the debates on the Finance Bill. Hon. Members on this side of the Committee are not altogether happy about the present methods of financing our public service industries; we have raised these matters before, but I will tell the hon. Member for Kidderminster and his friends—the "unofficial Opposition," as he describes it—that before we consider any of his proposals we want an honest disclosure of the motives behind these attacks on the nationalised industries. The hon. Member is not present, but if any of his hon. Friends who support him in this matter are present I must tell them that this constant sniping at our public industries has now gone so far as to become almost a succession of charges of negligence, incapacity and inefficiency directed against the public servants that we have put in charge of those industries. These baseless criticisms of public servants who are not in a position personally to reply reflect no credit upon the hon. Member and his friends.
  However, I look forward to the debates which he has promised to initiate, because I am convinced—and I say this with all the emphasis that I can—that we shall have no difficulty in showing that our public service industries are well managed, efficient and, in the circumstances in which they have to operate, highly successful.
  In his Budget speech the Chancellor referred to the financing of our railway system during the modernisation period. There is nothing new, revolutionary or reprehensible in the idea of cancelling a trading deficit of a public service rather than put a load of accumulated debts upon the enterprise. It has been done before. It is done by the German Federal Government for the German State Railways, which are very efficient and progressive, and give an excellent service. It is done by State railways in other countries. These deficits on railway operations seem to be endemic. After a Parliamentary debate and a thorough examination of the railway accounts the German Government take over the annual deficit and pay it off out of State revenues. It is not carried forward as a debt burden on the railways.

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  There is nothing new about that. It has been clear to everyone who has carefully examined our own railway operations, and the prospects for our railways over the last few years, that the method adopted by the Government for financing this vast essential reorganisation was completely unworkable. We said so in 1957 when the Transport Act was before us. We could see then that the Government were crippling the railways with an immense load of debts, and we felt that these debts would prevent the railways from ever being able to offer the public a competitive transport system.
  If the annual deficits as a result of the reorganisation scheme had been allowed to go on piling up, the advantages of reorganisation would not accrue to the public in cheaper and better services, because they would be taken to pay off the debt charges for many long years to come.
  The Chancellor is at last proposing to pay the railways a subsidy. As far as this Budget goes, it is a temporary subsidy. We shall have to decide future financial arrangements when we see the Government's proposals, but if those proposals are tied up with the commission of inquiry which we heard about today we shall get into a not very happy situation.
  We think that the Minister of Transport is setting about this business in not quite the right way, but even the temporary subsidy is to us an important innovation. It has caused some alarm among the Chancellor's hon. Friends who paraded themselves as the last supporters of laissez-faire liberalism.
  I cannot understand why this has not been done before. This is a step in the right direction. The Chancellor never has been opposed in principle to giving Government aid to industries in temporary or permanent difficulties. He has been responsible for paying enormous sums out of public funds to agriculture. He is to pay quite a lot of money to agriculture this year. We support these farming subsidies for a very good reason. We do not want prosperous urban communities to be surrounded by a derelict and poverty-stricken countryside.
  That is why subsidies are paid. We thoroughly agree, but when the Chan-
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  cellor goes on to express the view, as he did in his Budget speech, that our industrial prosperity must be fairly shared, he cannot give us a general expression of opinion of that kind and stop at the agricultural community. Just as we cannot have a poverty-stricken agricultural community in a land of prosperity, so we cannot have a poverty-stricken community of railwaymen and a debt-ridden railway system. We therefore welcome the Chancellor's step and also the Government's belated rejection of the idea that we ought to check inflation by trying to run the railway system on the cheap. If prosperity is to be fairly shared, then railwaymen and other people in difficulties must get their fair share.
  There is the final aspect of nationalisation mentioned in the Budget, the sellout of Richard Thomas and Baldwins. We take the view that if we are to maintain full employment and the Welfare State—and the party opposite is pledged, as the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. C. Osborne) made clear, to maintain full employment and the Welfare State— there must be greater public control over the economy. We cannot do it without public control and a measure of public ownership. We are agreed about that because these public services about which we have been talking have not been sold out. It is only the steel industry which has been largely sold. For that reason we think that the Government are making a great mistake in surrendering their last holdings in the iron and steel industry. I think that the hon. Member for Shipley (Mr. Hirst) will agree that when debating questions of this kind it is very difficult to put political prejudices on one side, but there is a good unprejudiced case for the Government having at least one big steel plant in their possession. We on this side of the Committee would go further, of course, in our claims for public ownership. That, perhaps, is where the political prejudice comes in. My hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North expressed it eloquently a few minutes ago, but let us put that aside and look at this problem.
  Richard Thomas and Baldwins is efficient, well managed and prosperous under public ownership. There is no question about that. We have only to read the annual reports of the chairman

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  of the concern and the references to his annual speech which have appeared in all the papers, including the Conservative financial papers. To sell out its equity holdings to private shareholders would not improve its efficiency, its opportunities for development, or its worker-management relations. As my hon. Friend said, the management of the steel industry is now in such a position that management has ceased to be responsive to shareholders. The shareholding is too diffuse. If we look at the shareholdings of United Steel companies we find that it would be quite impossible to get them all into one hall in the country. They have more shareholders than workers. Shareholders are scattered, individual holdings on the average are too small, and in practice the shareholders cannot exercise any control over the management.
  Mr. George Lawson: Can my hon. Friend tell us how many are in America?
  Mr. Darling: I have never examined the location of the shareholders. Frankly, I do not know whether there is any American investment in the concern or not. There is considerable institutional investment, which rather strengthens my argument. Whether they come into that I do not know. With the scattering of the shareholding and the fact that management cannot be responsive, but for the somewhat negative control exercised by the Iron and Steel Board as regards policy the management would be responsible only to itself. That would be true if the shareholding of Richard Thomas and Baldwins were arranged in the same way at the time of the sell-out.
  This, we think, is a very serious situation. It is true that the steel companies which have been sold out have not abused their freedom. With some rather worrying exceptions, they have worked with the Iron and Steel Board and have leaned over backwards to show that they are public spirited, but I hope hon. Members opposite will not mistake or underrate the influence on the steel companies of the prospect of nationalisation. I speak as a representative of a steel city. I should say that they have done what they have done to try to prove that public ownership would not improve the industry, but they have not done enough. They are still somewhat afraid to risk having too much productive activity.
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  I have not time to go into the whole story of holding up of expansion schemes, but hon. Members can read the reports of the Iron and Steel Board. They can find further evidence in the trade returns, which show a great increase in steel import, particularly of sheet steel last year. Until the new sheet mills— which we are paying for—come into operation, the expansion of the motor car industry, which the Chancellor desperately wants for his export trade, will to a large extent have to rely on imported steel. This is not a happy situation. The truth is that the steel companies are doing very well, and if our general industrial expansion, which depends on steel, is to continue, some companies will have to be pushed into taking risks in building new plants and expanding plants to meet potential future demands for steel. If they hesitate we may find the general expansion we want will be handicapped through a shortage of steel. We may have to depend increasingly on imports, which will not do our balance of payments any good.
  For these reasons, and without any political prejudice in the story at all, I think that the Government are making a profound mistake in having no stake at all in this industry, and in giving up the means of making good in the expansion of their own plant the deficiencies of the private companies. We object in the strongest possible terms to the cynical disregard of the public interest which the Chancellor and his friends display when they invite the City's operators to dip their fingers into the coffers of this highly profitable public enterprise.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that the sale of Richard Thomas and Baldwins will help him below the line. I hope that he—or the Economic Secretary when he concludes the debate tomorrow—will tell us what he intends to do with the money. We should very much like to know.
  In the few minutes which I have left I should like to turn briefly to another industrial aspect of the Budget. I do not think that it is unfair to say that the Chancellor was unable to produce a popular Budget, with substantial tax reliefs, because he dare not take any risks with the trading position. Our economy is too delicately balanced. Our

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  financial reserves are not strong enough to allow him to take risks, and our productive capacity, as has repeatedly been said in the debate, is stretched almost to the limit. As he himself said, we no longer have the reserves of labour and capacity on which we could count a year ago.
  Yet, even in these very tight circumstances, we must get a bigger output of goods, particularly for export. We can do this only by getting more production out of our existing factories, out of the additional factories which ought to be built quickly in areas of unemployment and out of our present labour force.
  In these circumstances, we cannot afford any industrial unrest. We cannot afford any check to production, any failure to make full use of our limited resources. But we are not making full use of our resources. There is far too much easy-going, inefficient management in many sections of our industries. I am sure that the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. C. Osborne) will agree with me, because I put this question to him in a previous debate and he nodded his head vigorously in my favour when I said that if the managements of all concerns were as good as that of the best concerns, we should be a lot better off than we are now.
  Mr. C. Osborne: That is true of the workers, too. I meant both sides.
  Mr. Darling: The hon. Member anticipates me. What I mean by inefficient management is that there is not quick enough scrapping of out-of-date machines and not rapid enough introduction of modern machines and modern methods. I am sure that the hon. Member agrees with that. But probably the greatest weakness of our industrial set-up is bad industrial relations. I could say a great deal about this, but I want to finish in a couple of minutes.
  Mr. Lawson: Does not my hon. Friend agree that management gets the industrial relations it deserves?
  Mr. Osborne: Not always.
  Mr. Darling: I have only two minutes left and I want to put this in my own way.
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  The view which I want to express is that in our present economic circumstances, when every little bit of production is needed, particularly for export— even little bits of production are needed —and is vital to our well-being, we must look at labour relations. We cannot accept the view that labour-management relations are the private concern of individual firms and that the Government have no right to interfere. If relations are good—and thank heavens they are good in most industries in this country—there is no need to interfere. But where relations are bad, where there are constant strikes and stoppages, the Minister of Labour has a duty in the national interest to step in, to get his officials to go in to examine relations, to find out what is wrong and to offer new and better means of attaining a healthy working partnership.
  Finally, may I very quickly point out that there are far too many workers today receiving low wages, particularly in certain of the public services such as hospitals and local government. Indeed, we are presented with a somewhat misleading figure of average earnings by the Ministry of Labour. There is far too much relative poverty in this country among pensioners and the lower-paid workers. If we are to have a Budget fair for everyone, the Chancellor must stop imposing extra burdens upon the poorer sections of the community. He must do much more to help. In this Budget he has failed to help them in any way, and on that count alone we must judge his financial manipulations to be wholly inadequate.
  9.36 p.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Stevens: I add my congratulations to those of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Darling), and of the two hon. Members who immediately followed them, to my hon. Friends the Members for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) and Pudsey (Mr. Hiley) on their maiden speeches. Most of us find this to be not an easy place in which to speak, not least because of the sympathetic atmosphere which is particularly noticeable on the occasion of maiden speeches. Most of us probably find it a little easier to speak if there is the odd spot of heckling around us. Today, my two hon. Friends were free from that inspiration. This is the first and

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  last occasion on which that will be so. I am sure that they will hereafter receive all the inspiration they need.
  The hon. Member for Hillsborough started by saying, "Alas, how are the mighty fallen". The great Tory Party, he said, has in its 1960 Budget to introduce injections of Socialism. He complained that the injections were too weak, but they were injections of Socialism none the less. To which of my right hon. Friend's suggestions was he referring? Was he referring to the added incentives to small savers? Was he referring to the reductions in Estate Duty by the sliding scale? Was he referring to the increases in personal allowances in respect of Income Tax? Was he referring to the increases in Profits Tax? To which of my right hon. Friend's proposals did he refer when he spoke about injections of Socialism? The hon. Gentleman must have been trying to take some lessons in propaganda from my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) who, I am bound to say, does it a lot better.
  We had today a very important contribution to our whole way of thinking on Government expenditure from my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft). I took his speech as one directed not at my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer but at all of us Members of the Committee of Ways and Means of the House of Commons. How many of us can put our hands on hearts and say that never at any time in our political career, even as recently as last October, have we said to any person or group of persons, "I am the chap who will get you more roads, more schools, more hospitals", without going on to say, "Of course, you are the chap who will pay"? How many of us can stand in a white sheet and say that?
  My right hon. Friend's speech drove home to us the dereliction of duty of which this Committee of Ways and Means has been guilty for many years. What he said ties in very closely with the actions of my noble Friend and Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke), my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) and others of my hon. Friends who, a week or two ago, drew attention to this very matter. Time after time on Supply
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  Days—the choice of subject on Supply Days is a matter for the Opposition— we let votes of fantastic sums of Government expenditure go through on the nod and make no effort to search our minds and consciences about what the economic consequences of voting these astronomical sums are likely to be.
  I welcomed the statement of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, who appeared to be fully seized of this difficult and, I think, highly dangerous situation, when he said that he would consult with everyone concerned, including the Opposition, to see whether, before the Estimates are in final form— in other words, in the autumn—this Committee of Ways and Means could not get back to what used to be its primary duty and act as guardian of the public purse. The speech of my right hon. Friend has emphasised that very much.
  I support this Budget for three reasons and with a number of reservations. The three reasons which lead me to support the Budget are these. First, the keynote of it is stability. Secondly, it gives added encouragement to small savers. Thirdly, it does not provide for the introduction of a capital gains tax.
  On the first point, that of stability, although there may be discussion about the reasons, there is no argument about the facts. Whatever the critics may say, my right hon. Friend's term of office as Chancellor of the Exchequer has throughout been accompanied by a remarkably steady retail price index and a remarkably steady £. That is a fact which no one can gainsay. Equally, there cannot be the slightest doubt that that is of the utmost benefit to industry and is of the greatest possible benefit to all those who work in industry and to old-age pensioners, for whom right hon. and hon. Members opposite say the Conservative Party has done so little.
  I should have thought that one of the greatest boons to old-age pensioners in the last eight and a half years has been that they have not seen the purchasing power of their pension being eaten away, not year by year, but, as happened at one time, month by month. That is not the case today. It has not been the case for two years, and I am sure that that is what not only the old-age pensioners but all those who live on fixed incomes, particularly those on small fixed incomes, appreciate more than anything else. I

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  shall say a little more about savings in another context later.
  I now want to say a word or two on the possibility of a capital gains tax about which my hon. Friend the Member for Torquay (Mr. F. M. Bennett) said something yesterday. I am glad that my right hon. Friend did not fall for the wheedlings and blandishments of the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) and Mr. Nicholas Kaldor, for two reasons. First, it seems to me that a capital gains tax would run completely counter to Conservative political philosophy. Secondly, on a purely practical note—[Interruption.] The hon. Member may not be able to understand political philosophy. He may understand practical points. Save in the case of inflationary periods, a capital gains tax would yield relatively little. We are not likely to have an inflationary situation again, save in the unfortunate event of the return of a Socialist Government.
  The Chancellor considers that the rate of expansion of production during the last six months is dangerously fast. It is certainly true that in the last six months it has been increasing at a rate exceeding even the immediate post-war period when, in certain respects, it was very much easier, during the change-over from war-time to peace-time production, to achieve these remarkable figures. In the last six months, however, the rate of expansion has been even faster. My right hon. Friend feels—I am entirely in agreement with him—that the pace has accelerated too much. As he said, there must be a slowing down of the rate of expansion, but it must not be brought to a full stop.
  It is a matter for argument that some of the more pessimistic pundits are right and that the evaluation of the brake to be applied can be measured in terms of £200 million to £300 million of additional taxation a year. I have a shrewd suspicion that had my right hon. Friend applied the brake to that extent, he would have had a man-sized revolt upon his hands.
  I am very glad that my right hon. Friend has felt it wise to retain the investment allowances. There is not the slightest doubt, as hon. Members opposite have said, echoing what has been said previously from these benches, that out hope for the future depends upon
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  increased productivity. It does not seem to me that there will be any real difference of opinion that there are four reasons, and four only, for wanting increased productivity.
  The first of the four reasons is to keep down our costs. I have in mind not only the home trade but the export trade, too. By so doing—this is the second reason —we can improve our own standard of living and double it in twenty-five years. By increasing our productivity we can get more leisure. The fourth reason is that by increasing our productivity, we can bring more help to the underdeveloped countries. I would not have thought that there was any difference of opinion that those were the four reasons. As there has been no interjection from the benches opposite, it would appear that those reasons are generally accepted.
  Mr. William Baxter: Does the hon. Member accept that productivity should increase in agriculture as well as in industry? Why is it the Government's policy to try to stultify agriculture?
  Mr. Stevens: I do not regard that as germane to the point I was making that there are only four reasons for wanting increased productivity. The hon. Member's interjection was not entirely relevant.
  That being so, I cannot help wondering from time to time, as trade unions ask for reduced hours of work, whether they are in tune with the policy of the Labour Party of wanting more help for under-developed countries. If we reduce the effective hours of work proportionately with, or more than proportionately with, the increase in productivity, less goods and services will be available for the under-developed territories.
  Mr. Walter Monslow: The hon. Member always refers to trade unions and what they might do, the reason being that they should apply wage restraint and that there should be no reduction in hours, so that more can be done for the underdeveloped countries. I should have thought that this could be done by spending less on non-productive and destructive services and by spending more on productive and social services.
  Mr. Stevens: I entirely agree. I thought that the hon. Member would

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  answer the point I had just made. The fact that he did not indicates that there is substance, as obviously there is, in what I have said.
  If by giving ourselves more leisure we reduce the amount of goods and services available for export, how can we in the same breath call for more assistance for the under-developed countries? I am not making any party political point out of this. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I merely ask Members of the Committee, on both sides, whether the two things should not be considered together, that is, the natural desire to have more leisure and the natural desire to bring more assistance to under-developed countries, but to find a happy balance between the two.
  In that connection, in view of the various increases in the national wealth which have taken place in the last year, I felt that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor was less than fair—and in this he was followed by many other Members of the Committee—when he dealt with only one year, the rise from 1958 to 1959.
  My hon. Friend the Economic Secretary this afternoon went back further—to 1948. I think it is fair to go to the Economic Survey and take a reasonable period of time. I have taken five years, which I think is fair enough. We find that between 1958 and 1959—and I give these figures very briefly for the sake of clarity—the income from employment rose by £474 million, which is 35 per cent., and gross trading profits of companies rose proportionately much more, by £308 million, which is 10 per cent. If we go back a little further and take a longer period, that from 1955 to 1959, which I would have -thought was a reasonable period, we find that income from employment, that is to say, salaries and wages, rose by £2,659 million, which is 23½8 per cent., while gross trading profits during exactly the same period rose by £463 million, which is only 159 per cent., or about 7½ per cent. less. I think it is quite unrealistic to suggest that in a fairly reasonable period, company profits have risen so much and income from wages and salaries so little.
  Mr. Mitchison: Is not the relevant table the one at the bottom of page 30, which shows that from 1958 to 1959 the
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  percentage of the national income represented by wages and salaries fell by I, while gross trading profits and the income from self-employment went up?
  Mr. Stevens: No, the relevant table is not that one. The hon. and learned Gentleman is on the wrong page. The relevant table is on page 40 of the Economic Survey, and is Table I of the Statistical Appendix, which deals under different headings with the income from employment and gross trading profits of companies respectively. Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman, at the conclusion of our deliberations, will look at the right figures, instead of the wrong ones.
  Now I come to my reservations. Three months ago, I thought it was possible that my right hon. Friend would have sufficient confidence in the future to be able to make another considerable reduction in the standard rate of Income Tax. I appreciate that, in present circumstances, that is not possible, but I am not sure that he could not have taken 3d. off. I do not think that Chancellors of the Exchequer are fair to the British people. They always seem to think that if a reduction is made in the standard rate of Income Tax, and ordinary men and women have left in their pockets each week or month a little more of what they have earned, they immediately dash out on a spending spree. That is not true. The tendency is all the time to save.
  In 1952, the then Chancellor, the present Home Secretary, took 1s. off and estimated the cost at £229 million. In the following year, National Savings increased by £434 million, and it is the case that if the National Savings increase by more than the cost of the reduction in the standard rate of Income Tax, there is no real inflationary effect. That is the point. In 1953, the Chancellor of the Exchequer took 6d. off, at an estimated cost of £141 million, and National Savings increased in the following year by not quite so much. In 1955, the Chancellor took 6d. off, at a cost of £155 million, and National Savings increased by £266 million.
  Mr. Mitchison: The wrong figures.
  Mr. Stevens: No, these are the right figures. The party opposite can get by with its propaganda only by quoting the wrong figures, as we learned last October.

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  In 1959, the Chancellor took 9d. off, at an estimated cost of £229 million, and National Savings increased, as was announced this week, by £219 million. Therefore, it is not true, and although I have that one reservation, I am sorry he could not do that. I am also sorry that he could not do anything with regard to Schedule A. Although I am not one of those who think that Schedule A Income Tax, even for the owner-occupier, should be abolished, I think there should be some increase in the statutory repairs allowance, particularly in respect of smaller properties. I also think that some attempt might have been made to move the £2,000 limit, not necessarily to £3,000, but to £2,250, as the starting point of Surtax.
  I think it is regrettable that my right hon. Friend has not been able to do what the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) had a good deal to say about yesterday—I entirely agree with him— reduce the difference between expenses chargeable for Schedule E purposes and Schedule D purposes. I am sorry that my right hon. Friend has not been able to extend the provision originally brought in by my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth, the O.T.C. status for companies registered in this country but having overseas branches. I am sorry that he has not been able to extend that to overseas subsidiaries as well. I am sorry that, though I welcome the gifts inter vivos provisions, my right hon. Friend has not been able to reduce the actual rates of Estate Duty themselves. I do not think that that would have had an inflationary effect.
  Again, I do not think that if a man or woman inherits a little more money than he or she otherwise would have had he or she dashes round the corner on a mad spending spree. They do not spend it; they save it. However, I do not look the gifts inter vivos provisions horse in the mouth and I welcome it.
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  Now for a very odd thing indeed. It seems that right hon. and hon. Members opposite like this Budget That, of course, at once makes me feel that there must be something wrong with it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Cheer up."] To my hon. Friends on this side of the Committee who do not like this or that specific proposal in the Budget I have two things to say. First of all, is it conceivable that my hon. Friends, this little group, could possibly have liked a Budget introduced by the party opposite? I do not think that is possible. Is it not possibly true in this case as in others that the red devil from Tiverton we know is better than the arch-fiend from Huyton whose Budget, thank goodness, we do not know?
  The other and by far and away the most important thing I have to say, which is the thing which has weighed with me above all things in considering what view I should take of this Budget, is this. It is the fact that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor throughout his tenure of office has put the stability of the £ as the first priority. He has had two years of success. It certainly cannot be said of this Budget that it has serious inflationary potentialities. It may well have deflationary tendencies. It may have, I think, steadying tendencies. In other words, I think that this Budget will tend to prolong that quite remarkable run of success of my right hon. Friend in that very important context, and for that reason I will support it, and I commend it to my hon. Friends.
  Whereupon Motion made, and Question, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.— [Mr. Brooman-White]—put and agreed to.
  Committee report Progress: to sit again Tomorrow.

  WIRELESS AND TELEVISION (RECORD PROGRAMMES)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.— [Mr. Brooman-White.]
  9.59 p.m.
  Mr. Roy Mason: I must say right at the outset that I was very reluctant to raise this matter in the House tonight, but having started by raising this question of wireless and television record programmes last December at Question Time, when the advice of the Postmaster-General to me was to send the material on to the B.B.C. and I.T.A., and knowing the contents and the material, and having only qualified privilege, and so finding Chat I could not do that, I feel obliged to raise it in the House tonight.
  I must say that as a Member of Parliament I am very much against this present system where, though we may find that untoward practices are prevailing in a Department or in any of the ancillary departments of the Government, if we want to follow the matter right through to the end we are somewhat hamstrung and cannot send our communications to the Department concerned without incurring the risk of libel because we have only qualified privilege. In consequence, no Member is prepared to send the material of this nature. Therefore, I want to make my protest right at the outset. I am very much against this system and I raise this subject here only as a last resort.
  It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Motion made, and Question proposed. That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Brooman- White.]
  Mr. Mason: As to the substance of the Adjournment debate, I raised this matter, as I said, last December, and intend to see it right through. First of all, I am absolutely against the undesirable alliance of disc jockeys and producers of record programmes with record firms as partners or employees, and at the same time having a job writing in the popular Press stating or advertising or giving ideas as to what records should be bought.
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  We have plenty of examples of this. David Jacobs, for instance, who has been voted top disc jockey of the year, and, I understand, is earning at least as much money per year as the Prime Minister—an example of our values going astray. He is the disc jockey of "Juke Box Jury". I understand that he has complete autonomy of selection. He is employed by the Pye record firm and at the same time is writing a weekly article on discs for the Daily Mail.
  Ker Robertson, the producer of "Cool for Cats", is also attached to the Pye record firm and writes in the Daily Sketch. His disc jockey, Kent Walton, is employed by the Top Rank record firm. When I mentioned "Cool for Cats" in my Question last December, it was not because it was any worse or better than the others. It was just an example. It could equally have been "Juke Box Jury" or "Housewives' Choice". This is an undesirable grouping of jobs open to the very practical criticism that it is purposely designed to make the plugging of records very easy indeed.
  Neal Arden, the regular disc jockey of "Housewives' Choice", in his article in The People of 15th November, 1959. said:
  "Mantovani played me his latest composition, ' It was Love' (Decca), the other day. It is sung for all it's worth by Brian Johnson, and song and voice and record are so excellent that I'm afraid this disc would never make the Top Ten. Much too good! However, as I shall be doing ' Housewives' Choice' at the B.B.C. in a couple of weeks' time, I hope some wise lady will ask me to play it."
  This is absolutely blatant plugging in the public Press, asking that he should be given the opportunity of plugging a record on the air. As every hon. Members knows, if it is played on the air or on the television programme it is boosted in sales by thousands. There is also the inference that this system of the "top ten" is dishonest because it was said that this record was so good that in any case it would not get into that top number.
  Jack Good is, firstly, a television producer and, secondly, a music publisher with a half-share in a business. Thirdly, he works for Decca Records as a recording manager and for E.M.I. as a disc jockey. Finally, he writes a column for the record paper Disc. This places him in a position where he can make

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  money from his music business, through his television programme, and where he could come under pressure from two record companies to boost their records and artists on T.V. and in the newspaper.
  Russ Conway, who recently had a television programme, discovered and now manages the singer Eddy Falcon, and twice he has been a guest on his show—plugging Russ Conway's songs. First he gives him a spot on the show; secondly, he gets a commission for every contract, including these appearances, and thirdly, Falcon plugs the songs which Conway has written. This undesirable alliance is taking place and this plugging ring ought to be broken.
  Next the method which is to be very much deplored is that whereby teen-agers are being continually cheated and exploited whenever they purchase a record. This is in two parts. The first, of which we have had an example by one of the top disc jockeys, concerns the "top twenty". It is a swindle. Billy Cotton described it as the "tyranny of the ' top ten'." There is not only one "top twenty". There is another called "juke-box top twenty" and another called "twenty top tunes".
  Record firms are making arrangements with their agents and distributors purposely to boost a record. They take extra copies of that record on special terms and those they do not sell they can return, so that the record starts to move and they can then claim that it is certain to move into the "top twenty". This is how trash is getting into the "top twenty". As Neal Arden suggests, the best records never get there. The "top twenty" is a swindle and is being used to encourage teen-agers to buy the wrong type of record. That is only a small part.
  The other part of the racket involves a good side and a bad side of a record, called the "A" and "B" sides. They are all conversant with this. Record manufacturers watch for hits in the United States, or for a song destined to be a hit. They group a team together and make an "A" side, and possibly it sells half a millon, or, if it is very good, a million copies. Some recording managers have connections with music publishing companies, though not usually openly. It may be that their
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  shares are held by nominees. They also have the same artists under their direction, and sometimes they are managing them.
  Consequently, they have one of these artists record the "B" side. It may be one of the music publishing firms's own numbers—one that would not otherwise be recognised or sell, but with the "A" side it is assured of at least half a million copies sold.
  The recording manager and his music publishing firm will get the same financial return, too. Thousands of pounds are involved. There is no consideration for the record buyer, particularly the teen-agers, who are paying for these records. This is the system that means one popular number on one side and trash on the other.
  The Minister ought to recognise the size of the market. There are 3½ million record players already in use, and the record industry has a turnover of £50 million a year. That is really big business. The production of records in 1959 totalled nearly 70 million and sales were valued at nearly £14 million. Here is a system specially designed to cheat every record lover, but particularly the young people.
  We have plenty of allies on our side in opposing these things. Mr. Harold Walter, general manager of the Performing Right Society, has said:
  "Our directors feel that all is not well in the business and that it should be cleaned up…. We are also trying to devise means of limiting pseudonyms used by composers. We understand that one member of a recording company used 54 … Although the use of pseudonyms is usually justified and is without ulterior motives…."
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am not quite clear what the Government responsibility for that is.
  Mr. Mason: The Postmaster-General, under licence, is responsible for certain actions by the I.T.A. I am drawing his notice to these associated matters which come within his jurisdiction, such as wireless and television record programmes.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I do not see how the Minister is responsible for the manufacture of records.
  Mr. Mason: This is the system that is being employed, within the I.T.A. particularly, for which the Postmaster-General has some responsibility. It is

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  under the Television Act that we are able to raise this matter in the House of Commons, as we have done at Question Time, and as I am following it up now, as I think logically, in an Adjournment debate. I am unable to send my material through the post, as I have said, because these communications only carry qualified privilege, and if they go through the post then legally they are published. Members are stultified in following through any of these rackets or practices that are continuing to grow in any department that the Minister may be responsible for.
  The gentleman goes on to say:
  "… there may be some cases where recording managers use them to conceal the fact that they are writing songs to put on their own records."
  Mr. Paddy Roberts, chairman of the Song Writers' Guild, says:
  "We are in the process of compiling a list of recording managers …"
  These are the people working in the I.T.A. and the B.B.C.
  "… who make records of songs they have written or published. We understand that some of them have made as many as fifty in one year."
  Another colleague who comes to our aid, a man with great knowledge and experience of these matters, is Jack Payne. In a statement decrying this system whereby recording managers use their company's songs or their own to foist on the public on the "B" side of a record, he says:
  "In my view, this could lead to evil. No wonder the British songwriter finds it difficult when the market is monopolised in this manner. Most emphatically, bribery occurs in the 'pop' music industry, and I defy anyone to prove otherwise."
  Those are very strong words. What better evidence could there be than that from a person who is in the industry itself?
  Because of what has been happening, an American music company recently wrote to me. It was very perturbed and said:
  "We have felt for some time that when the American music publishers, with their history of underhand dealing, got into your market, it would only be a matter of time before your recording men and programmers of music were corrupted. As a matter of record, I had been considering for the past several years opening a branch in England … Previously so, because I believed that in a clean atmosphere, energy and talent would receive a just reward."
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  It went on:
  "We have seen the picture change in your country, and I think it only fair and just that you point out that it is the advent of the American publisher and record company that has caused this."
  Even across the Atlantic they are noticing what is happening here. They are getting worried. They thought they might be able to come in here and give, particularly, young song-writers a chance, but even they have been pushed out of the market. I assume that the writer was referring to the companies which I mentioned in my Question when I raised the matter with the Postmaster-General last December.
  They are the Aberbach companies which are run in London by a person called Cyril Baker. The Americans invented that type of organisation in the United States. There has been criticism of their activities. The Music Publishers' Association disapproves of some of them. In America the Aberbach companies formed a partnership with recording managers, disc jockeys and artists—the same alliance again. They started the same thing here two years ago. By this means recording managers are placed in a position where they can take songs from their own companies and put them on the "B" sides of records which are destined to be hits. The "B" side of the record makes just as much money as a hit. This prevents many song-writers from being able to sell their talents and takes business away from the more reputable music companies who show no favouritism.
  This shady form of record making is tending to increase. It requires the Postmaster-General's reserve powers of intervention to stop it. The British songwriter has not a chance of competing against these rings. First, he has to persuade a publisher to publish his song. Secondly, the publisher has to persuade a record company to make the record. Thirdly, the recording manager has to try to get the song on the air. These are formidable obstacles which cannot be surmounted. The only method left is for the man to buy himself in. Everybody wants a cut from the royalities, so he has to make an effort to bribe someone in order to get into this closed shop. Therefore, the good, honest song-writers in this country are being frozen out of the market.

  527
  In conclusion, I ask the Postmaster-General to request the I.T.A. and the B.B.C. to conduct internal inquiries into these malpractices because they could grow and become a major scandal. Now that we know they exist, the Minister has an opportunity to step in and nip them in the bud. Consequently, he could give instructions for these undesirable practices to end. Having brought these things to light, without having gone into great detail—and I could mention more corrupt practices within these two associations—I look forward to hearing from the right hon. Gentleman that he will do something positive about them.
  10.15 p.m.
  The Postmaster-General (Mr. Reginald Bevins): My hon. Friend the Assistant Postmaster-General would have replied to this debate in the ordinary course of events and would have replied with a natural charm and aplomb. Her absence is not due to any disrespect to the hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) but is because she has another and important engagement. I hope that I shall be able to give the House a reasoned reply to what has been said, or at least to most of it, because, as you implied. Mr. Deputy-Speaker, at one point some of the hon. Member's remarks might have been a little wide of the responsibilities of the Postmaster-General.
  It is always refreshing to listen to the hon. Member for Barnsley. I appreciate his beliefs and his sincerity and I have no choice but to put up with his tenacity in this matter. Since he first raised this subject, I have made a point of listening to one or two of the programmes on which his criticisms have centred and I have found that they are quite amusing, provided that one closes one's ears to the words.
  What is the case that the hon. Member has deployed? The first and perhaps the most important suggestion is that certain records are what is known as "plugged" by disc jockeys, that is to say, they are put on to an excessive extent on both some extent, of course, be interested and that not only is plugging improper, but it also prevents young and talented people from coming forward and securing the limelight.
  The first thing I have to say is that hon. Members know perfectly well that, irrespective of their political colour,
  528
  successive Governments have always endorsed the independence of the B.B.C. and, more recently, of the Independent Television Authority in their day-to-day affairs. I shall not weary the House with the statements in the manifestos of the two parties. It is the business of the B.B.C. and the I.T.A. to keep their houses in order, but the hon. Member is entitled to know what steps those two broadcasting authorities take to prevent these alleged abuses.
  Before I come to those specific measures, I want to make it clear that, irrespective of what the two authorities may do in the mechanical sense to prevent these abuses, there are and always will be two very powerful sanctions which operate against abuses of the kind which the hon. Member has alleged. In the first place, as the House well knows, these programmes are essentially popular programmes. The hon. Member said that millions of people listen to them. They have a very wide popular appeal, especially among those who are young, or young in heart.
  Quite clearly, any attempt excessively to plug unpopular or dreary records would very quickly lead to a falling off in audiences, to the disadvantage, both financial and otherwise, of the programme company, or of the broadcasting authority. That is obvious to anyone. The second point is that there is extremely keen competition among the record companies themselves. I do not pretend to know how many of those companies there are, but there must be many and if they were to detect any greatly pronounced bias in favour of one company or another, by either the I.T.A. or the B.B.C., I am perfectly sure that there would be a public hullabaloo in no time.
  We in Parliament know something about the power of what is colloquially known as the bush telegraph. I am perfectly sure that the bush telegraph hums far more in the world of popular song writing than it does in the world of government. If there were to be improprieties or acts of corruption by disc jockeys, it would soon become very widely known in the world of entertainment and even more widely publicised than this topic has been in the last few months.

  529
  I come to the steps that have in fact been taken by the two broadcasting authorities. First, the B.B.C. practice— and I have discussed this matter both with the B.B.C. and I.T.A.—is to limit the number of permitted performances of any particular song within given periods and to make sure that the products of the record companies are fairly distributed in the programmes. In fact, the B.B.C. studies the details of the programmes to make sure that, in this particular type of programme, a proper balance is kept.
  Mr. Ness Edwards: Does that mean that the disc jockey has no complete right of selection?
  Mr. Bevins: The right hon. Gentleman is perfectly right, but I should like to say something even more explicit on that in a moment. It is perfectly true, as the hon. Gentleman said, that about six of the present B.B.C. disc jockeys also have employment with record companies as comperes on Radio Luxemburg. But the B.B.C. informed me that it has absolute confidence in these men, and it believes that its disc jockeys are men of honour.
  On the point just mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards)—and this I think is most important—I have ascertained that the position is this: it is most unusual for the disc jockey himself to select the records that are actually played. The usual thing is for records to be selected by two or three people, including the disc jockey and the producer of the programme. The hon. Gentleman can take it from me that the producer always has a say in the selection of the records. He referred to Mr. Jacobs and the popular programme known as "Juke Box Jury". There, in fact, the records are chosen by the producer and director of the programme and not by Mr. Jacobs at all. When I say that, quite clearly Mr. Jacobs is working in concert with the producer and the director of the programme and must to some extent, of course, be interested and involved. But the primary selection of records in that particular case rests with the producer and the director.
  Mr. Ness Edwards: Does the Postmaster-General realise that that is getting dangerously near sponsorship? Here is
  530
  an employee of a company who is concerned about producing products of his company and, in that sense, this is really a borderline case of sponsorship? Is he satisfied that no sponsorship is actually taking place?
  Mr. Bevins: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman, but that again is a point to which I shall come almost immediately. Naturally, neither the B.B.C. nor I.T.A. can broadcast or televise every record that is made. Perhaps that is just as well. If any singer or crooner, or whatever these artists like to describe themselves as, makes the grade, I think that he has a fairly good chance of getting on to the air or on to the screen. I.T.A. has an agreement with the programme companies whereby anybody who is even indirectly connected with a record company is not allowed to select the records for programmes. It is quite true that at one time the records of the programme "Cool for Cats"—this I think originally inspired the hon. Gentleman's initiative in this matter—were selected by one of the representatives of the Daily Sketch newspaper, who, unknown to Associated Rediffusion, had taken up work with one of the record companies. When that fact was discovered, a check was made of the records for which that gentleman had been responsible and it indicated no emphasis at all in favour of the record company with which he had a link.
  As an ardent viewer of these programmes, the hon. Member will realise that there are no such programmes on the I.T.A. network at the moment, although at least one may return in the near future. I doubt if I should be in order in pursuing the question of records having a good melody on one side and a less good one on the other. That has been the case ever since I was a boy. I remember buying a record with "Pomp and Circumstance" on one side and "The Red Flag" on the other, but I did not complain.
  Mr. Ness Edwards: Which was the better side?
  Mr. Bevins: I will not be drawn into a discussion on that point. I am certainly not responsible for the conduct of the record companies and the way in which they manage their business.

  531
  I now come to the question of the interest of independent television programme companies in record companies, and vice versa. I am told that there is a financial interest which works both ways as between Associated Television and one of the larger record companies. But in this connection, the checks that have been taken have not suggested in any way that undue prominence is given to the Pye label in the record programmes. Hon. Members on both sides of the House will appreciate that there are many diverse interests in commercial television. Some people think that there are far too many. Newspapers, cinemas, theatres and show business in its most comprehensive sense all have interests in commercial television.
  I am not sure why record companies should be singled out as a class and disqualified from having such an interest when all these other interests are allowed. It could be argued that any of these interests could influence the programme content on commercial television, but if that proved to be to the detriment of
  532
  the programme contractors they would very soon feel the draught. Whatever I may feel about that, as Postmaster-General I have neither the legal power nor the statutory duty to prevent programme companies from entering the gramophone record field.
  I noted what the hon. Member said in opening. It may well be that he has raised a difficulty. I appreciate that, and I should like an opportunity to give further thought to it. I hope that the hon. Member will feel that this discussion, short though it has been, will at least have some effect. At least it will be studied by the television and broadcasting authorities, who are always anxious to heed what is said in a responsible fashion in this House.
  That is all that I can say for the moment. I hope that I have been able to say a few things which will give some sense of satisfaction to the hon. Member.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes past Ten o'clock.

MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
  Union of South Africa (Supply of Arms)
  Union of South Africa (Supply of Arms)
  Blue Streak Missile
  Blue Streak Missile
  UNITED NATIONS (HUNGARY)
  UNITED NATIONS (HUNGARY)
  EUROPEAN FREE TRADE ASSOCIATION
  EUROPEAN FREE TRADE ASSOCIATION
EMPLOYMENT
  Camelford and Wadebridge
  Camelford and Wadebridge
  Forth Road Bridge
  Forth Road Bridge
  England and Wales
  England and Wales
  Handicapped Persons, Cardiff
  Handicapped Persons, Cardiff
  Apprenticeships
  Apprenticeships
ROYAL NAVY
  Moorings
  Moorings
  Flag Officers and Vote A Strength
  Flag Officers and Vote A Strength
SHIPBUILDING
  Tenders
  Tenders
BRITISH ARMY
  Royal Ordnance Factory, Woolwich
  Royal Ordnance Factory, Woolwich
  Saracen Armoured Vehicles
  Saracen Armoured Vehicles
POST OFFICE
  Radiation Hazards (Report)
  Radiation Hazards (Report)
  Office, Ashington
  Office, Ashington
  Offices, Durham (Booklet)
  Offices, Durham (Booklet)
  Deliveries
  Deliveries
WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
  Medium Wave Transmissions (Interference)
  Medium Wave Transmissions (Interference)
  I.T.A. (Programmes)
  I.T.A. (Programmes)
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Kiosks, Wales
  Kiosks, Wales
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Fylingdales Warning Station
  Fylingdales Warning Station
ROADS
  "No Parking" Notices
  "No Parking" Notices
  Kingsway Tunnel
  Kingsway Tunnel
  Highway Authorities (Non-feasance)
  Highway Authorities (Non-feasance)
  Fullbridge, Maldon
  Fullbridge, Maldon
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Sand Dunes, Porthcawl
  Sand Dunes, Porthcawl
  Colliery Spoil Heaps
  Colliery Spoil Heaps
HIGH COMMISSION TERRITORIES
  Security
  Security
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Fullbridge, Maldon (Flooding)
  Fullbridge, Maldon (Flooding)
MINISTRY OF AVIATION
  Military Transport Aircraft
  Military Transport Aircraft
  Supersonic Boom, Liverpool
  Supersonic Boom, Liverpool
KENYA
  Royal Technical College, Nairobi
  Royal Technical College, Nairobi
SOUTHERN CAMEROONS
  Kumba-Mamfe Road
  Kumba-Mamfe Road
BRITISH GUIANA
  Constitutional Conference
  Constitutional Conference
BRITISH HONDURAS
  Education
  Education
  Senior Officials
  Senior Officials
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Kodak Limited
  Kodak Limited
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  East-West Trade
  East-West Trade

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Lichfield

LORD NELSON OF STAFFORD
Sir George Horatio Nelson, Baronet, having been created Lord Nelson of Stafford, of Hilcote Hall in the County of Stafford—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
The Lord Oxenfoord (E. Stair)—Took the Oath.

PARKING OF DISABLED PERSONS' CARS
2.48 p.m.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, having regard to the special difficulties which disabled persons experience, the appropriate Minister will ask the police to give such help as the law allows to disabled persons in connection with motor-car parking.]
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, the enforcement of the law relating to the parking of vehicles in any area is the responsibility of the chief officer of police concerned. It is clear from discussions that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has had with representative chief officers that the police generally, as one would expect, recognise the special difficulties experienced by disabled persons in parking their cars and give them all the help they can. Whilst it would not be practicable to give disabled drivers a general exemption from the restrictions on parking imposed in the interests of all road users, there are many ways in which the police can, and do, assist them to overcome their difficulties.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend
726
for his sympathetic Answer, and while affirming my own experience that the police do their best in this matter, will my noble friend say, for Her Majesty's Government, and will your Lordships generally endorse the view, that any special help the police can give within the law would meet with our favour?
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, we all greatly appreciate all that my noble friend does for disabled people throughout the country. I believe that the reply I have already given to him is very much what he would like.

MURDER STATISTICS
2.50 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can estimate the approximate number of murders that have been committed since the Homicide Act, 1957, was passed, and whether they can give a similar estimate for the number of murders that occurred in the corresponding period before the passing of that Act.]
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, in the first twelve months after the Homicide Act came into force on March 21, 1957, 151 murders became known to the police in England and Wales and in the second twelve months 127—a total of 278. The figures for the corresponding periods before the Act was passed were 129 in 1955–56 and 146 in 1956–57. That was a total of 275 for the two years. These figures exclude cases originally recorded as murder but later found not to be murder.
The figures for the periods before and after the passing of the Act are not strictly comparable because the Act changed the definition of murder. The principal change was the introduction of the special defence of diminished responsibility. There were 31 cases in 1957–58, and 20 cases in 1958–59 in respect of which persons charged with murder were then found guilty of manslaughter after pleading diminished responsibility. Most of these cases would probably have been regarded as murder before the Homicide Act was passed.

727
My Lords, I apologise for all those figures and dates but I am afraid that it would have been impossible to give the noble Earl the figures he requires or a fair picture without using them.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, may I thank the noble Earl for that very full Answer and for giving those figures, which I think are significant?
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, might I ask the noble Earl, it being rather difficult, as he admitted, to carry the figures in one's head while they are being read, whether we can take it that there has not been a material difference in the number of murders since the passing of the Homicide Act as compared with those in the corresponding period before?
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, if the noble Lord opposite will do some addition he will see that there seems to be an increase in deaths—we can put it that way. But one cannot, apparently, compare murders from year to year; one needs a considerable time to be able to tell the trend in murders. And in the view of my right honourable friend the time has not yet elapsed to be able to judge the trend.

EXPORT OF TRANSISTORS TO SOVIET BLOC
LORD BIRDWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state the position in regard to the trading of germanium transistors with countries within the Soviet bloc.]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): My Lords, under arrangements agreed with our Allies, transistors of types which possess a strategic importance may not be exported to countries within the Sino
728
Soviet bloc; but the wide range of germanium transistors in general civil use is not subject to embargo.
LORD BIRDWOOD: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl very much for his reply. Am I to understand from it that it is possible to differentiate between the germanium transistor which is of strategic importance, particularly in regard to a guided missile, and a transistor that is of normal commercial trading significance?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Yes, my Lords, that is so. The noble Lord will find the description of transistors which are on the embargo list in the Board of Trade Journal for February 5 of this year, the items being on page 282.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, could the noble Earl tell us what a germanium transistor is?—because some of us here, being rather ignorant on these matters, do not know.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I think that in order to get a thoroughly accurate definition the noble Lord should consult an electrician. The types which are on the embargo list include, for example, those using germanium as the bulk semi-conductor material and having the following characteristics: an average f alpha of less than 50 megacycles per second and designed to have a maximum collective dissipation (in watts) multiplied by the average f alpha (in megacycles per second) greater than 7·5.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Earl. We are now all quite clear about that.

THE BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION'S FUTURE
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I should like to inform the House that my noble friend Lord Mills will be making a statement later this afternoon about the body which is to advise as to the future of the British Transport Commission.

THE AIR ESTIMATES
2.55 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON LORD SHACKLETON rose to call attention to the Memorandum accompanying the Air Estimates, 1960–1961 (Cmnd. 950); and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I rise to call attention to the Memorandum accompanying the Air Estimates and to move for Papers. I am sure it would be your Lordships' wish in the first instance that we should take note of and once again congratulate the Royal Air Force on the high standard of achievement and the progress that has been made; and I think it would be unkind not to include the Air Ministry, at least in this stage of my speech, in those congratulations, since I shall have some criticisms to make at a later stage. We can all take a great satisfaction in the high efficiency and indeed the high morale of the Royal Air Force. Those of your Lordships who from time to time have an opportunity to visit R.A.F. stations or to return to their old units and possibly see their friends will recognise that the R.A.F. is at a very high state, both in regard to morale and, indeed, in regard to the efficiency that they can attain with the equipment they have at their disposal.
It is interesting, when we look at this large sum of £527 million, to make a brief comparison of the size of the Air Force and the number of aircraft that it possesses with the position immediately before the war. Some figures were recently given in another place which showed that in 1939 there were 9,700 aircraft in the R.A.F. as against 5,000 to-day; and that officers and air crew then numbered 8,500 against 13,600 today; and other ranks 105,000 against 161,000. It illustrates, I think, how inevitably the tail in the Armed Services, in the Forces, must lengthen, because we know that the striking capacity of the R.A.F. must be infinitely greater than it was before the war, even if we leave out the nuclear weapon.
But it is, of course, as the provider of the deterrent, of the fission and hydrogen bomb, that the R.A.F. has its main rôle. It is my view, and I think that of most noble Lords, that it is the nuclear deterrent, even though now it has become something of a mutual suicide weapon, which has most brought home
730
to people everywhere the impossibility of war to-day; that the inconceivable horror of these weapons makes peace the only proper objective in foreign and defence policy. I do not wish to enter at too great a length into the arguments on the desirability of having such weapons; we have had opportunities to do so in the Defence debate and on other occasions. I must, however, repeat my own conviction from the Royal Air Force point of view that this Government, like previous Governments, the Labour Governments, were absolutely right at the time to build these tremendous and horrifying weapons; and it is, I believe, the capacity of the West, matched now possibly by an equal and maybe a greater capacity on the other side of the Iron Curtain, to blow man off the face of the world, that has perhaps brought mankind to his senses. And it is the Royal Air Force, together with the American Air Force, who provide the all-important "sword" as part of the "sword and shield" strategy in present circumstances. Whether the nuclear weapon, the hydrogen bomb, the "equaliser" as it was called by one noble Lord, is still a credible weapon to-day would give rise to another difficult and rather sophisticated argument which I would not attempt to go into.
We have to take into account in our consideration of the Royal Air Force that its rôle at the moment is mainly to carry the deterrent; and the 200 V-bombers—about 200 V-bombers, Vulcans and Victors—are capable, I understand, of delivering this deterrent. It is to that extent an independent deterrent, although it is inconceivable, I think, that it would ever be used independently. We have it now, whether we like it or not, and the cost, though heavy, is still by no means the largest part of our defence costs. In regard to the use of this deterrent and the operation of Bomber Command, who would have the responsibility for delivery, it is satisfactory to know (it has been said on previous occasions, and I have confirmed it to some extent among my friends) that, with the development of dispersal and training, it is virtually certain that, with proper readiness—which means a high degree of readiness and anticipation—it should be possible to get a sizable proportion of this force into the air in the event of an attack being detected.

731
This is at the moment certainly preferable, and is a less difficult decision to take than to have to decide whether or not to press a button and release missiles, whether they be Thors or, later, Blue Streaks, which cannot easily be recalled. In fact, I doubt whether they can be recalled at all, although it might be possible to arrange for their destruction in mid-flight. I should be very glad, as I am sure would other noble Lords, to hear, either from the First Lord or from the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, who is to wind up this debate on behalf of the Government, something of how this high degree of readiness and dispersal are to be achieved. And where are these airfields to be? In this country or abroad? How far do the Government and the Air Ministry reckon they can, if necessary, bring back into use some of the aged runways throughout the country which et the present time are being used as experimental motor tracks, and so on?
My Lords, I do not propose to discuss the early warning station at Fylingdales, on which many things have been said, except to ask the Government again whether they regard this as a significant part of our defence system, not with a view to achieving any effective warning to the civilian population (for we know that probably that will be impossible) but to ensure that the deterrent, on which our defence strategy is at present based, is capable of being made effective.
While I am discussing Bomber Command it is interesting to note—and I am sure noble Lords who are interested in the Air Force will agree with me—that the transfer of certain aircraft, namely, some of the Valiants, from Bomber Command's strategic force into a more tactical rôle under "Saceur" provides another striking example of the flexibility of air power, and the gains that can be derived from the unity of air power. This is a principle which I think has never been properly understood outside the Royal Air Force. I should particularly like to draw the attention of the First Lord to it, because those of us who are interested in air strategy and have followed the teaching of Lord Trenchard in the past realise that we still have an obligation to instruct what I might call the older disciplines in the significance of air power.
I should now like to turn a little to the future. Here we find ourselves, as do the Government, faced by the most acute problems of decision; and it is clear that at the moment the whole of our defence policy with regard to the use of the deterrent and the means of delivery is to some extent in the melting pot. In regard to the rocket deterrents, we already have in this country a number of Thors deployed and in the hands of the Royal Air Force, although I understand that we still have not immediate operational control over them and that there is some system, which none of us has yet been able to understand, by which a decision can be taken. This is, of course, one of the major issues of defence which is hound to give rise to much debate in the future, and on which we have yet to hear some really satisfactory statement from the Government.
But, my Lords, when discussing the value of these Thors—and I think there is a very considerable doubt now as to the wisdom of having these rather vulnerable weapons—we have none the less to return once again to this vexed question of Blue Streak. The Blue Streak, which is a liquid-fuelled ballistic missile—a very large one indeed; I think it has a diameter at the base of about 12 feet—has been attacked. I believe, probably more than any single weapon that has ever been produced. Practically everyone has had something nasty to say about it. The Government never say anything nice about it: they merely suggest that they are having second thoughts. It is notable how much criticism of this rocket, on the grounds of its relative immobility and vulnerability, has been made by noble friends and honourable friends of mine in another place, as well as by many critics outside Parliament, among the military commentators in the newspapers and elsewhere.
On the other hand, there are still some passionate proponents of Blue Streak. In a speech by Sir Frederick Brundrett which I saw reported in the newspapers, and which was nearly the subject of some action under the Official Secrets Acts (though I do not quite know why) he said, quite frankly, that he believes it to be the best weapon. Indeed, he said that it is the only weapon, and that if Blue Streak is to be dropped we shall, at any rate during the latter part of this decade,

733
be without a deterrent of our own. I do not necessarily regard that as wholly disastrous, but it would almost certainly mean the end of an independent British deterrent. I said this in the defence debate, fortunately, a little before Sir Frederick Brundrett spoke; although, of course, it is a very obvious statement. It is not long ago that the Government said the day of the bomber was pretty well over. Now we see the Government moving back to a position where they are looking once more at the bomber to supply the need in the deterrent field.
My Lords, I myself, in so far as those of us without secret information can possible tell, am probably in as great a state of confusion as the Minister for Defence. He will have the advantage that shortly he is to go to America, where he will learn a good deal more about the experiments going on over there. He will know whether it is in fact possible to fire Blue Streak out of an underground cellar of some kind (a "silo" I think it is called), or whether reports that that is impossible have been confirmed. We have been told that when the Americans fired Minuteman the noise was such (something over 200 decibels) that the entire structure collapsed inwards; and the Americans, I see, are not thinking of hardening their sites by sinking their ranges underground but of putting them on flatted cars. It will not simplify the transport problems of this country if we have these vast pieces of apparatus, measuring 12 feet across at the base moving up and down the railway lines of this country; and I do not know how it can possibly be achieved. It may well be that the sites can be hardened or can be put underground. In that situation, I would accept the view that, provided the dispersal was not confined to places in the unfortunate counties of East Anglia but might be anywhere in the British Isles, it would be almost impossible wholly to knock: out these sites, to the point of rendering Blue Streak's deterrent effect of no avail.
If, however, Blue Streak does go, we should like to know what the Government's thinking is going to be on this matter. They would, I believe, free themselves from a good deal of the very heavy criticism which has been levelled at them on defence matters if they would tell us a bit more about what their thinking is.
734
What is said openly by everybody who is interested in defence from outside, and is now openly said by people inside the Services, whether they be serving Generals or ex-Chief Scientific Advisers, might well be said on occasion by Government spokesmen. We should like to hear from the Government, though perhaps it may be a vain hope, how this controversy is going. I am, in any case—and I think this must now be the view of the Government—beginning to wonder how far it is really sensible to build up in America and in this country these enormous and highly able design teams, each working on the same problem.
I am told, for instance, that in this country there are two inertial working systems being designed for missiles (and I can tell my noble friend Lord Morrison of Lambeth that they will undoubtedly incorporate germanium transistors) and the Americans are also working on this. It may be that a certain amount of competition in this field is a good thing, but when we set it against the resources which we have for our defence effort generally, and for our fire brigade rôle (and I should like to say a word or two about this later) I think the time has come when once again we should look to see whether national pride ought not to give way to a greater increase in interdependence; and particularly now as we think about the new-time scale that the Government have given us. Whether the move is to the powered bomb or, later, to Skybolt, and whether or not Blue Streak is maintained, it is quite certain that we shall have to look to the United States for a good deal of our defence equipment, as we have already done with regard to Thor. I hope that in this matter we shall, in the course of a fairly short time, see the fruits of the visit of the Minister of Defence to America.
Before I leave Blue Streak, I should like to return once again to a matter which was raised briefly last year and to suggest what is possibly a more profitable use for Blue Streak, especially if the Government now abandon it for defence purposes. It was again Sir Frederick Brundrett who suggested that Blue Streak was the only British vehicle which would be capable of putting satellites in orbit. We now know that

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the Government, even if only in a small degree, are beginning to take this question of space research seriously, and there is a special section in the Meteorological Office engaged in designing and preparing the instruments to go into the Scout satellites which are being provided by the Americans. Despite the fact that there are many of your Lordships, many people in this country, and many scientists who are busily engaged in useful science, who think that that kind of science ought to come first, the fact remains that the world's instruments are going out into space, and I hope that the Royal Air Force, which is undoubtedly the right body to move in this field, will begin to develop in regard to space research in the same way as the United States Air Force.
It was not long ago that the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, when talking about space, said that people never say exactly what they mean and what they want. But we have the authority of the Under-Secretary of State for Air in another place who tells us that if we get the results which are expected by scientists, the effect on long-range forecasting, which affects us all very much and which we can all appreciate to-day, may be almost revolutionary, and the reporting and photographing of the cloud cover on the earth could benefit mankind by marry millions of pounds a year. There are other rôles, in communication and control, and I suspect that it may be only a matter of time (though I hope that the Disarmament Conference will prevent this) before atomic weapons are in orbit round the earth. This is a horrifying thought which, none the less, we should do well to recognise. As we move through this difficult technical era, I think we must recognise that there are a large number of extremely able first-class designers, technologists, scientists and others, who are passionately interested in this field, and as new methods of propulsion come along, whether it be the ion drive or whatever it is, it is certain that they will want to participate in the activities of their fellow men in this field. I hope that they will do so in co-operation with other N.A.T.O. countries and particularly with the United States of America.
Returning from that brief visit to space, I should like to come back to aircraft which will continue to fly in the atmosphere, or, at least some of them, in the upper reaches of the atmosphere. I would ask the Government whether they can tell us a little more about how the new Mark II Vulcans and Victors are coming along. We know the tragedy that befell the prototype Victor, but I understand that the new types of powered bomb and standoff weapon—Blue Steel, I think it is called—can be carried only by these more advanced marks of aircraft. I should like to ask the Government what the real rôle of the TSR2 is. We have been told that it is essentially a general purpose fighter reconnaissance tactical bomber. But is it possible that in fact it is intended as a successor to the existing V-bombers, and that this is a way in which the Government are trying to get round their difficulty of explaining their statement in the past that the V-bomber was finished? I would ask the First Lord, in particular, who is equipping the Navy with N.A.39's, whether in this matter there ought not to be some agreement as to the type of aircraft that ought to be used, and whether we ought not to develop these separate types. We shall, of course, have an opportunity of discussing that matter on the Naval Estimates.
There was also a decision not to provide the supersonic fighter. Now we have been told that the Lightning is already capable of flying at a speed twice that of sound. I would ask the Government again whether this British-developed aircraft is going to have the same performance as either the American Star fighters or the Russian Mig.17 and Mig.19, which we have been told can fly at 2½ mach. We have, I think, some grounds for anxiety as to whether the enormous expenditure in this field is going to lead to good results and whether, in the end, we may not see a repetition of the fiasco that took place over the Swift.
I turn now to the subject of the future of Transport Command. At last there are some encouraging developments. Critics of the Government in the past have complained about the slowness in the ordering of aircraft. We realise that to a large extent the emphasis on the deterrent has handicapped the build-up

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of Transport Command. I do not know why we had to wait until 1956 to order the Britannia. I remember discussing Britannias in Ottawa with some friends in the Canadian Air Force, back in 1950 when they were on the way, with a view to their being used not in the transport rôle but possibly in the maritime rôle. It seems unfortunate that so long a time has been taken. On the other hand, we have been encouraged by the news that at least Transport Command are to get Comet IV's. Furthermore, the Argosy is shortly coming into service.
But the real anxiety—and this is, I believe, the anxiety, particularly in military circles—is as to the delay in placing orders for the Britannia. It looks as if we shall not get the Britannia before 1965. The last time there was a try-out of air mobility on a large scale was in the Lebanon operation. On that occasion I understand that our air transport facilities, even by bringing in every aircraft, was stretched to the full, and we had to obtain the help of the Americans with Lockheeds. I do not wish to advocate the making or the buying of American aircraft in preference to British aircraft, but we ought to have these aircraft now, so that the Army is able to discharge its job as part of the world fire brigade. If they have to wait four or five years more before they get the Britannia, ought we not to consider ordering, or possibly manufacturing under licence, aircraft like the Lockheed 130.C, which bears a considerable resemblance to the Britannia?
I should like also to raise the question of other aspects of Army support. How far are the Royal Air Force likely in the near future to get any of these aircraft that are really essential to enable the Army to carry out quick operations in the field? We have recently had the operation "Exercise Starlight", which has revealed some serious gaps. The Air Force has no medium-range helicopters from the point of view of availability to the Army. I hope the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Harding of Petherton, who is to speak later, may throw some light on this subject. If the First Lord believes that the Air Force have enough helicopters to make the Array satisfied or even remotely content, I think he is wrong. There is a need for a build-up of all types of aircraft, both the helicopter and the short-
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range aircraft. There was a time when there was talk about building the Prestwick 1 and 2. I do not know what has happened. I believe the Government have dropped the idea.
There is further the need in these operations to get much closer integration between the Air Force and the Army. While the Air Force lack the aeroplanes the Army will not be pleased or satisfied, and we shall not get the smooth inter-Service relationship that is essential. Here again, while I believe that the unity of air power must be maintained, the responsibility is on the Air Ministry and the Royal Air Force to see that they meet the needs of the other Services. I would again ask the Government to produce some long-term guidance on this matter. Is it intended that troops will be moved in future much more by air? The day will come, I think, almost certainly—although it may not arrive for quite a while—when there will be such a thing as an individual man-lift. Interesting experiments have been going on in manpowered aircraft, perhaps with a small booster. But the time will come when the individual soldier will be able, so to speak, to hop from trench to trench, except that he will not in those circumstances be going into trenches. I think we ought to hear some view on this matter, instead of these rather dreary repetitions about new helicopters and new aircraft being developed, when we know that none of them is going to be available in the near future.
I would also ask the Government whether they ought not now to consider Transport Command as a main carrier for the Services in peace time. There was an interesting article in The Times quite recently from which we learnt that the Transport Command utilisation of aircraft was enormously lower than that of the civil air services. That, of course, is to be expected. But the bill that we pay for movement of personnel is extraordinarily high. The Air Force figures are high enough, and the Army figures are somewhere around £7 million a year. Without going into the question of equipment, surely this is a rôle that Transport Command can increasingly undertake. After all, its rôle is transport, and whereas the other operational commands will not

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be able to be switched to a useful peacetime rôle, there is no doubt that Transport Command can. In that way we might get some of our money back.
There are other aspects of the work of Transport Command with which I should like to deal, but would now turn quickly to the question of my own old command: that is, Coastal Command. First, I should like to say how gratified I am—and I am sure that other noble Lords, and particularly the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, will be gratified—that the takeover bid by the Royal Navy for Coastal Command has been frustrated. This is the thirteenth attempt which has been made to take over Coastal Command, and it has done no good at all to inter-Service relations. I hope that this unfortunate episode will be the last.
I have on a number of occasions said that there is a need for much greater integration of the Services. I hope that one day their uniforms, certainly among the Staff, may be interchangeable. But the type of operation that was recently conducted in regard to Coastal Command I think has been a bad one, and I hope now that the Navy and the Air Force will settle down to good, workable relations. Equally, the Royal Air Force must supply the Navy with their needs and with the development of new detection equipment, particularly sonic equipment, there are some valuable advances in their primary rôle, which is the antisubmarine rôle. They will also need a replacement far their existing aircraft, the Shackleton, which has been in service for a long time now. It is admirable for its purpose, although I think the Canadians have a better one. When we take into account the long and dreary wait for the development of a replacement, I hope that the Government and the Air Ministry will move on as rapidly as they can, and that by doing so they will not over-emphasise the importance of the ground operational commitments, and will not forget either Coastal Command or, for that matter, Transport Command, which so often have been the Cinderellas in the past.
I have only a few remarks to make with regard to the other important aspects of Service activity. No doubt other noble Lords will refer to them. In the discussions on the Air Force we have heard
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very little about reserves, and we know that with the disappearance of the old auxiliary squadrons—a disappearance which was so greatly regretted, although I believed it to be inevitable—the need for reserves for the Royal Air Force is not as great as it has been. None the less, there is a need for building up certain specialised units, and for a number of years we were pressing that there should be the equivalent of air defence units for the different Commands. I am glad that, nearly ten years after it was first proposed, Coastal Command are now in process of recruiting their first operational control unit which will be able to man the operation rooms. There is some reference in the Memorandum to work-study, organisation and methods. It is worth recognising that the Royal Air Force have given a lead in this field and that they have to their credit the great advance that has been made in the use of operational research techniques, organisation, methods and so on.
I should like to put forward quite seriously the suggestion which I have heard mooted within Service circles that within the Command structure there should be funds available for the Commanders-in-Chief to carry out limited organisation and methods work of their own. Most of them have their own operational research officers, but frequently it is possible to carry out the major studies, provided you have the resources and a little elbow room to carry out the necessary research and investigation. I would urge that a little more leeway be given to Commanders-in-Chief to carry out work of that sort.
There is not time to refer to the great improvement in pay and conditions. I should like to congratulate the Government on the rapid way in which they have moved following the Grigg Report. Your Lordships will agree that to-day all the four Services, and certainly the Royal Air Force, are well remunerated by civilian standards. Some interesting comparisons can be made, because we now have that invaluable Report, the Report on Doctors' Pay, which has provided us for the first time with a real study of comparative pay rates throughout the professions. It is satisfactory that the Air Force and the Army emerge pretty well. I hope that there will also continue to be inducements for women to join the Air Force. I

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notice that the old Service reports all referred to the high marriage rate among their women officers, but the Memorandum on the Air Estimates makes no reference to this.
I hope the Government spokesman will be able to reassure us that the prospects are every bit as good in the Royal Air Force, and if they are not I can again emphasise that these officers have a very high value when subsequently they return to civilian life. It so happens that I, in my work, have to employ quite a number of women in personnel work, and we have found that women from all the Services, including the Women's Royal Air Force, make excellent personnel officers. The qualities which they bring are those which are particularly valuable; they bring a very high sense of responsibility, a good understanding of human values and a very great deal of integrity. I hope it will be recognised what excellent material there is, whether it be for industry or for husbands.
My Lords, most of my remarks have been related to what might be called the main operational rôle of the Royal Air Force in its deterrent rôle. But before I sit down I would again raise the question, which is being increasingly raised, whether we have not lost quite seriously by the decision, which I am prepared to defend, none the less, to build up our own deterrent. It is apparent from recent exercises and it is apparent from the trouble that is brewing in the world to-day that as the deterrent becomes perhaps less credible as the ultimate weapon so shall we need to strengthen our conventional forces. This, I think, has been made particularly clear by the recent tragic events in Africa.
I am not suggesting for one moment that the time will come in the near future when British forces may have to intervene in Africa. Wherever trouble arises—it has happened in the Caribbean and it has happened in many areas—the need will be to get the fire brigade there as quickly as possible. It will mainly be, I think, as a transporter of troops, indeed of the fire brigade of police, as the fire engine in fact, that the Royal Air Force will plays its particular rôle. I believe it will become much more the key to mobility than it has been in the past. Indeed, as the Secretary of State said in another place, in the long run the deterrent may be carried by aircraft which
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are essentially transporting aircraft and are no longer attack bombers. I believe that the R.A.F. continue to uphold the standards that we have always expected them to do, and I am sure that your Lordships would again agree with me, as I sit down, in sending our best wishes to the Royal Air Force and our complete confidence in their officers and men. I beg to move for Papers.

THE BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION'S FUTURE
3.34 p.m.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD MILLS): My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the debate, but with your Lordships' permission I should like to repeat to you a statement which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport. This is the statement:
"With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I will make a statement about the body which is to advise about the British Transport Commission.
"In accordance with the statement which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister made on March 10, I have now appointed the body which will advise me and the British Transport Commission. It will be composed of:
Chairman, Sir Ivan Stedeford, K.B.E., Chairman and Managing Director, Tube Investments, Limited;
Members, Mr. C. F. Kearton, O.B.E., Joint Managing Director, Courtaulds Limited; Dr. R. Beeching, A.R.C.S., B.Sc., Ph.D., Technical Director of Imperial Chemical Industries, Limited; Mr. H. A. Benson, C.B.E., F.C.A., a partner in Cooper Bros., chartered accountants. The Treasury and the Ministry of Transport will also be represented.
"The task of the advisory body will be to examine the structure, finance and working of the organisations at present controlled by the Commission and to advise the Minister of Transport and the British Transport Commission as a matter of urgency how effect can best be given to the Government's intentions as indicated in the Prime Minister's statement."
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, we are glad to have the statement which has been made in another place given to us in the House by the noble Lord. There is not much room for comment. We do not wish to quarrel with the capacities of any of the persons who have been put on this particular Commission, but when we come to deal with examining the finance and working of the organisation of a tremendous concern like the British Transport Commission, and considering some of the off-shoots of these varied items of policy that we have had put before us so recently, I should have thought it would be very inadvisable to have a final report from such a body without there being among its membership certainly a representative of the larger trade unions who may be really experienced in the general day-to-day management of widespread national distribution.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I can appreciate what the noble Viscount says. The desire of the Government was to keep this advisory body small. It can, and undoubtedly will, call upon the great help which can be rendered by the trade unions in this great industry and by the members of the Transport Commission themselves.
THE EARL OF AIRLIE: My Lords, I should like to say that I am delighted with the statement which has been made by the noble Lord, Lord Mills, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government. I had a Question down on the Order Paper, but withdrew it, as I was asked to do, because the matter was under negotiation, and I was glad to do so. But I only trust that out of this present deadlock some solution may be found; because it is quite obvious that we cannot go on as we are now. This is a very distinguished panel with a very distinguished chairman, and if anybody can find an answer perhaps he will be able to. And I would emphasise that an answer must be found. It must be remembered that Her Majesty's Government have a duty to provide the public with some transport to and from certain places, whether by rail, road or air. This applies especially to the country from which I come, where many of us have to motor 70 or 80 miles to get to an aeroplane. In the winter the aeroplanes do not fly, and the railways are so large and incomprehensible that they do not always work
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to time, as we well know. So that I only hope that out of this body will come some answer to this very vicious problem—I say that in no destructive way but in as constructive an attitude as possible. I hope that perhaps the Committee will be able to find some solution.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for his general support of what the Government are trying to do.
LORD MORRISON OF LAMBETH: My Lords, I thought that I detected in what the noble Earl said besides some general support some general anxiety. Could the noble Lord, the Paymaster General, in further answer to the point made by my noble friend the leader of the Opposition, tell us why there is on this body no person associated with labour from the trade union movement or the Co-operative Movement who could make a contribution. I am not quarrelling with the list of names he has read out. They seem to me to be able and competent people. But it is important that this body, in its recommendations, should carry the understanding, if not the assent—possibly the assent—of trade union representatives. It really is most unusual that on these bodies nowadays there should not be a trade union representative. Could the noble Lord also say why the membership of the body is to be drawn entirely from the employing side of private industry?
Finally, could he throw a little more light on what the body is supposed to do? The terms of reference are exceedingly vague—unless we are to interpret them as meaning that the planning body is going to do the job of the Transport Commission itself. I hope the noble Lord will be able to give us a little more information on that aspect. After all, in making this statement he represents in this House the Minister of Transport, who is not lacking in making plenty of public statements, sometimes of a specific character which he does not carry out. Surely, in those circumstances, he could have been better briefed than he has been this afternoon.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I will gladly answer the noble Lord, Lord Morrison of Lambeth, who himself knows a great deal about these subjects. I think he would be the first to agree that what we

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need on an advisory body of this kind is to have people with great experience of organisation in business; and that is what we have done. I am sure the Trade Union Movement and the British Transport Commission can contribute and help greatly in regard to this study. What we had to consider was: was it wise to have a large body of people, or was it better to confine it to those who have great knowledge of the subject we are asking them to examine? They can call upon—I am sure from my knowledge of the trade unions they will be only too anxious to co-operate—the advice and experience in this industry of the trade unions, and they can call upon in this industry the advice of the members of the Transport Commission: and not only the members of the Transport Commission, but anybody else with a knowledge of this great industry who has a contribution to make. The Government are of the opinion that the measure they have taken is the correct one—namely, to have a small body of people who can ask for the co-operation of a great number of people in the task they have so patriotically undertaken.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, I wonder whether I may make a suggestion to my noble friend. I appreciate that it is most important to have a small and compact body to conduct such an inquiry, and I appreciate that it would be open to the members to consult all sorts of people—the Transport Commission, the trade unions, and so on. I think it might well be an embarrassment to a trade unionist, or even to a member of the Transport Commission, if he were to sit upon this body, which is the technical term which we now use. At the same time, since it is to consult people, particularly those who are going to be affected by every single thing this body enquires into, and since its conclusions are going to affect their work (this applies equally to the Commission and to the unions), would it not possibly be wise and practicable to have two members, let us say, one from the Transport Commission and one from the unions, sitting in with the body the whole time, rather than ask them questions on this or that subject?
I say that for two reasons. These people would not be members; they would not even be assessors. I think it is common that in all international conferences people sit in and "assist". The
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people who were asked to sit in in this way would know what was in the minds of the body inquiring, and when some question arose upon which their opinion was particularly required—many unions would be concerned in this—then the body itself would be in a better position to come to a decision. Although, as I say, these people would not be members of the commission of inquiry, and would not be able to sign the recommendations, it would mean that when the recommendations of the body, which has to act as quickly as it can, are published, there would be much more likelihood of their being accepted, or at any rate appreciatively understood by both the Transport Commission and the unions, whose good will will be required to put into effect any recommendations that may be made.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for his suggestion. The matter, however, is not quite so simple as that. If we are not careful we shall have a great body of people. After all, there are several trade unions concerned with the undertakings of the British Transport Commission, and there are several branches of the British Transport Commission, too. Whether anybody who is particularly concerned in running the railways wants to be concerned in running hotels and the discussions that accompany that matter, I cannot say. I will see that the noble Earl's suggestion goes forward to my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport, but I can see difficulties. I should not be fair to your Lordships if I did not say that.
LORD CITRINE: My Lords, may I appeal to the noble Lord not to omit as a full member of the inquiring body a member of the trade union movement. I can quite understand the Government's anxiety not to have representatives serving on a committee of this kind, but there are many people in the trade union movement with considerable experience of this scale of organisation and of the industries concerned. I myself have served on two nationalised industries, and I have served with two of the persons who have been named this afternoon as members of this committee. I am quite sure that the conclusions reached will be infinitely more likely to find general acceptance if there is on the

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committee someone who has a knowledge of the workers' point of view and, broadly, without being a clear representative of the railwaymen or of anybody else, can represent it. Unquestionably one can find such a person in the ranks of the trade union movement. I beg the noble Lord not to turn lightly on one side such a suggestion. This is a profoundly important question and one that might have far-reaching repercussions.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Citrine. He knows that I, too, appreciate the qualities of trade union leaders, many of whom I am proud to own as friends, and I know what they can contribute. But the Government came to the conclusion that it would be better in this matter not to have interested parties represented, and to confine the membership to people who were really trained in organisation of business on a large scale. However, I will report his remarks to my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I would only say that, while I greatly appreciate the intervention and kind suggestion of the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, I hope that whoever is added to the committee (if there be anybody added) will have full status, because it is so important to have the right to ask questions of the witnesses.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition for his remarks.

THE AIR ESTIMATES
3.50 p.m.
Debate resumed.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, I feel it is almost indelicate of me to interrupt this debate on transport, but I would remind your Lordships that before my noble friend made his statement we had just listened to a well-informed speech from the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. Your Lordships will, I know, have come to expect this, since the noble Lord has great experience of the subject, not only because he has served in the Royal Air Force but because of the continuing interest which he has taken in its well-being.
It is always interesting to look back on what one has said in the past: sometimes it is an agreeable experience, sometimes not. One often finds, I am afraid, that the passing of the years has made one's remarks rather less prescient or wise than they might have been. But, my Lords, I am happy to say that on re-reading a speech that I made on this very subject in your Lordships' House four years ago, I was very relieved to see that not only has the policy of Her Majesty's Government towards the R.A.F. been consistent, but so have I. At that time we were still looking forward to the V-bombers coming along in large numbers. Now the later marks of V-bombers are beginning to come into service; and we are having to look seriously at the problems of the future.
There is, at any rate in this House, no Party disagreement about this aspect of our defence policy. The purpose of the deterrent, and the part which we play in contributing to it, are agreed. And yet it is a complicated and esoteric subject. Most of your Lordships will agree that, in the defence debates which we have had recently and in the discussions in the newspapers and some of the more learned journals, it has become increasingly evident that we are engaged on a kind of philosophical exercise: an assessment of probabilities, a balancing of hypothetical cases, and the closest analysis of capabilities and intentions. Not for us any longer the simplicity of the Duke of Wellington calculating what's at the other side of the hill.

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Our discussions to-day of the various forms of deterrence, and the philosophies underlying them, almost resemble the endless theological arguments of the past in their fervour and weight of words. I thought, therefore, that your Lordships might welcome an attempt on my part this afternoon to put into perspective the present rôle of the R.A.F. in Her Majesty's Government's deterrent policy. I should also like to say a word or two later about the other important rôles which the R.A.F. performs. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, will forgive me if I do not answer many of his questions, but my noble friend Lord Bathurst will be speaking at the end of the debate and will do so then.
One very important new fact which has emerged since our defence debate of last month is that for the first time there appears to be some likelihood of a measure of agreement on the suspension of nuclear tests. I am sure that your Lordships will agree that the visit of the Prime Minister to Washington last week has an important bearing on what may emerge at Geneva. It may turn out that this small but important step forward will take us significantly closer to comprehensive disarmament under proper controls. That has always been the aim of the Government's policy. But, however optimistic we may be, no one can seriously suppose that its achievement will not take a considerable time. We must not act as if the shadow were the substance: the success of our policy will very largely depend on our continuing to show that any attempt to destroy us would bring such destruction on the aggressor that there would be no fruits of victory. In conjunction with our allies in the United States we shall do this.
The R.A.F. are very proud that they are the Service which are now entrusted with the great responsibility of carrying out the long-range nuclear part of our deterrent policy. I think that the effectiveness of Bomber Command—and the noble Lord acknowledged this—is generally appreciated, but I sometimes feel that the very large contribution which it makes to the total nuclear deterrent force of the Western Alliance is underestimated; because for geographical and tactical reasons, Bomber Command, with the European-based units of Strategic Air Command, forms the spearhead of
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the alliance. At the present time Mark 1 Victors and Vulcans of Bomber Command are equal to any of their class in the world to-day. The map at the back of my right honourable friend's Memorandum shows how these how these aircraft have been showing their paces, not only in Europe but across the rest of the world.
When I was in Australia we had a visit by a number of aircraft of the R.A.F. They did a demonstration in celebration of the Queensland centenary and a number of fly-pasts in other capital cities. It was heartening to see the amount of publicity they received and the appreciation of their competence and technical skill by those who saw them. My Lords, the operational readiness of the force is of vital importance in keeping it effective as a deterrent. The V-bombers can be dispersed over a large number of airfields. It has been found possible to get four aircraft off the ground from one airfield in less than four minutes; and this is not exceptional: it is part of the normal training and has been achieved throughout the Command under realistic conditions.
This year Bomber Command will be getting the first of their Mark 2 bombers, the Vulcan Mark 2s. In range, height and performance they are significantly better than the Mark 1s; and they are capable of carrying Blue Steel, which will enable them to attack without having to penetrate the close defences. As part of Bomber Command we have the deployment of Thor, which will be complete in a short time. Thor squadrons, composed of 60 missiles in all, are an important addition to our means of retaliation; and, incidentally, they represent a fine effort of co-operation between the Royal Air Force and the United States Air Force.
A deterrent force, whether of V-bombers or Thor, has lost its validity if it cannot be protected. At the present time the main threat we have to counter is manned aircraft, and so our policy is to protect our V-bomber and Thor bases with fighters and surface-to-air guided weapons. These two are complementary to one another. The guided weapon is remarkably accurate and lethal, and it is the best for close defence, but it lacks the range and flexibility of the fighter and obviously has not the judgment and choice of action of the manned aircraft.

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Fighter Command is armed with the latest marks of Hunter and Javelin. The Javelin carries the new air-to-air missile Firestreak. The first Lightnings are now in service and are doing their operational trials at the Central Fighter Establishment. They contain a number of completely new features. They are capable of flight at speeds greater than Mach 2; and they have greatly advanced electronic equipment in the form of a radar fire control system which computes automatically and enables the pilot to complete a successful interception culminating in the automatic firing of a guided air-to-air missile. In short, the Lightning is a substantial step forward in the technique of fighter defence. Bloodhound is coming along satisfactorily and a number of new stations are being set up. It has shown a remarkable accuracy in recent trials. Seventy per cent. of the firings against pilotless targets have achieved a kill, and this has happened even when the missiles have been artificially diverted from their course.
So much for the present and for the period up to, say, the middle 1960s. Where do we stand in the future? Here we have the intractable problem which is always with us. Changes in technology are rapid: design and production are slow. But looking to the future in deterrent policy, we must ensure two things. First, we must be able, and must be seen to be able, to hit back at any aggressor; and secondly, we must be able, and be seen to be able, to prevent any aggressor from destroying in one swoop our capacity for retaliation.
There will come a time when the enemy defences will be so sophisticated that it will be doubtful whether even the latest marks of V-bomber armed with Blue Steel will be able to deliver their weapons. And in the years ahead there is likely to be a substantial development in the range, accuracy and quantity of Soviet missiles. These are the reasons for the discussions about the future, and for the study we are making of Skybolt and Polaris as possible vehicles for our contribution to the nuclear deterrent.
We must, of course, analyse very closely the advantages and disadvantages of the various systems available, and I do not want to say more about this
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problem than this. In the middle 1960s the V-bombers will still have a good deal of life left in them, and it might prove to be a sensible solution to arm them with a ballistic weapon such as Skybolt. We recognise, too, that, at a certain stage in the future, both the fighter and the guided weapon will gradually become less effective for the defence of our deterrent bases against an enemy threat composed mainly of ballistic missiles. But the validity of that threat depends upon its acquiring the certainty of knocking out our bases at a single blow. Missiles will not be able to do this if we get enough warning of their approach to get our bombers into the air first. Your Lordships will realise that this is the significance of the Fylingdales Early Warning Station, about which there has been so much comment and so much misunderstanding. I can confirm that this station will provide early warning for Bomber Command as well as the United States Air Force.
My Lords, I must apologise if I have talked at too great length about the deterrent; but it seemed to me that, since it is the primary concern of the R.A.F., I should give some account in this debate of the Government's thinking on this problem. Perhaps Whitehall jargon is at fault, but I sometimes think that too rigid a concept of our deterrent has emerged, almost as if it were something very valuable, wrapped up in a parcel, sealed with sealing wax, and put in the bank, an asset which you have but do not use; or as if it were like the Cavalry in the First World War, a powerful force but with severe limitations on its use. In fact, this is a wholly wrong picture. There is nothing rigid about our V-bombers or the fighters that exist to defend them. Flexibility of air power is as important as ever, and the R.A.F. remains as flexible in its operation as it always was, and, in some ways, rather more so.
Take Bomber Command. The increased performance of the Victor aircraft and the range of photographic and radar equipment which they carry might well play an important rôle one day in the policing of the disarmament agreements under a policy of open skies; and, of course, the V-bombers now have the capability of carrying ordinary high explosive bombs very rapidly to any part of the world. Fighter Command, too, is

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becoming a force with a world-wide capability. For some years now it has been the practice to rotate squadrons of Fighter Command overseas so that they may acclimatise themselves to the varying conditions of flying and fighting in different climates. The ease and the speed with which we can move fighters from one sphere of operations to another are greatly improved by the new techniques of flight refuelling, for which all our new fighters are being adapted. Bomber Command have been using this for some time and it is a day-to-day operation in air tactics. By this technique a Valiant was recently enabled to perform an 18-hour endurance flight.
We have learnt enough from the lessons of the last war to realise the overwhelming importance of air superiority for our forces operating in the field, and the mobility of the fighter is essential to this task. For the tactical support of the Army the R.A.F. use aircraft, such as the Canberra and the Hunter, adapted from other rôles. But perhaps the most important asset which flexibility can bring is mobility in the form of the greatly increased capacity of Transport Command, to which the noble Lord made reference. Since 1955 the capacity of R.A.F. Transport Command has been trebled. Most of this is due to the introduction of the Britannia, which can carry 112 troops against the Hastings' 42, and can cover long distances much faster. There are, too, the Beverleys which can carry the large and often awkwardly-shaped loads required by the Army. And there will be the A.W.660, for which 20 are on order now, and a further 20 will be soon. For the more immediate support of the Army, the R.A.F. provides the Pioneer and helicopters. This year the first Bristol Belvedere twin-rotor helicopters are entering service and orders are being placed for the new turbine engine Whirlwind, which will be along next year. This will more than treble the helicopter lift at present available.
When I spoke at the end of the defence debate I briefly mentioned the recent air transport exercise "Starlight", which has just been undertaken in North Africa. I thought it might interest your Lordships if, now the exercise is over, I made one or two comments on it. On the air side the exercise was designed to practise three main types of operation:
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first, the air move of a brigade group and certain R.A.F. elements from this country over a distance of nearly 2,000 miles; second, the establishment of an advanced air head and its protection against ground attack; and, lastly, the maintenance of forward troops by air supply. In the main strategic lift some 4,000 personnel, over 200 vehicles, and nearly 200,000 lb. of freight were flown out from this country to El Adem by Britannias, Hastings and Beverleys, in less than 80 flights. At the same time, Beverleys maintained a shuttle service to carry the troops with their vehicles and guns forward from El Adem to the air head at Tmimi—flying 200 sorties in the process. During the next phase of the exercise single and twin Pioneers and Whirlwinds together flew as many as 350 sorties and carried over 30,000 1b. of freight, to provide the logistic support for the Army forces engaged in a tactical exercise in the field. Finally, the brigade group was flown back to this country.
I think your Lordships will agree that this large-scale exercise illustrates the growing capacity and versatility of Transport Command. Although we did not use all our transport resources, it has provided most valuable experience. I should like to mention three outstanding features: the capability of the Britannia in the long-range rôle was amply confirmed; the Beverley proved itself highly reliable in the dust and sand of the desert; and a remarkably high degree of serviceability was achieved with the Whirlwinds and Pioneers during intensive operations in difficult conditions. This reflects great credit on those concerned, in the air and on the ground.
In conclusion, I should like to mention Coastal Command. This Command, which is so well known to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, is also of particular interest to a First Lord; and he would not expect me to agree with him that his picture of what has happened in the past is an accurate one. Last year the working arrangements between Coastal Command and the Royal Navy were revised, and it is very proper that they should be revised from time to time (and they were revised, incidentally, to the satisfaction of all concerned). In recent weeks, I have had the opportunity of seeing a little of how closely and harmoniously the two services collaborate at Northwood and elsewhere. A couple

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of weeks ago I spent a week at Gibraltar. I was in touch there with the part which Shackletons, which are based in Gibraltar, were playing in the N.A.T.O. exercise "Dawn Breeze", which has just finished. I pay my tribute to the skill and spirit of Coastal Command, whose aircraft carry out a wide variety of tasks over great distances of sea and land all over the world.
My Lords, I have not mentioned the personnel side—pay, conditions, careers and so on—and I shall leave that to my noble friend Lord Bathurst. I have purposely confined myself to the main policy conditions which govern the shape and dictate the operational functions of the R.A.F. I think your Lordships will agree that the policy on which the R.A.F. is based is the right one. Of course, conditions change: but I hope that I have shown that the Government are trying to meet change half way. There can be no doubt that its fine traditions, technical skill and adaptability will enable the Royal Air Force to respond to any challenge that the future may bring.
LORD FRASER OF NORTH CAPE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord a question on that? I am myself very much against this Yorkshire Moor business, because I think it is a complete waste of money. It is £15 million—quite a lot of money. What I should like to know, if the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, can tell me later, being a realistic person, is whether he could give a sort of résumé of what happens on this moor at one o'clock on a Sunday morning when an Army signaller, I suppose, would be in charge. That is what I should like to know.
4.10 p.m.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, I think the whole House is grateful to the First Lord for having intervened at the earliest stage in this debate, and for having given us such an interesting, broad picture of the function of the Royal Air Force. One of the advantages of having these detailed Service debates after we have had the general Defence debate is that we can consider in detail matters relating to each individual Service—though, of course, always within the framework of overall defence policy. The noble Lord who introduced this debate with, if I may say so, a very
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interesting speech, referred a good deal to guided missiles, which certainly figured extensively in the Defence debate a few weeks ago; and I want to ask a few more detailed questions without going back upon the broad, general, strategic arguments which I ventured to deploy on that occasion.
The first question I should like to ask about these guided missiles concerns the expenses and the estimates of cost. We have all seen the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, and I must say that it is a pretty disquieting document. I know—I suppose nobody in this House knows better—how great is the difficulty of estimating the cost of what is unknown and untried. In my time at the Air Ministry we ordered bombers and fighters off the drawing board; we ordered the power-operated turret practically off the drawing board. And radar, with many of its earlier ramifications, which was entirely novel and was so immensely successful, was not even on the drawing board at all. It was, so to speak, constructed out of the minds of the scientists. But even allowing that, errors or excesses (I refer to the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report) of something between 600 and 1,000 per cent. are really rather disconcerting; and I should like to ask my noble friend who is going to reply whether he can now give us, clearly, further estimates of what the cost of these different weapons is likely to be. I do not mean in great detail, but in global figures: and I think he can probably now give us a good deal of information of that kind.
I should also like to ask him (and this, I am sure, he can say without disclosing any secret or confidential information) what are the financial terms of these contracts. By that, I do not mean the detail of exactly how much money this or that firm is going to get, but what are the principles of finance on which these contracts are based? Are they on a cost-plus basis? I, and those who worked with me in the Air Ministry, always felt that the cost-plus basis was a thoroughly bad principle, and we set our face against it. I do not think that in the whole time I was at the Air Ministry we ever placed a contract, whether it was for aircraft, equipment or for airfields, on a purely cost-plus basis.

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I had seen it in the First World War, when I was invalided out of the Army and became Secretary of the Ministry of National Service (the Admiral will remember this very well), and when our equivalent of the Liberty ships was being built. They were built on a cost-plus basis—the cost plus whatever it was, say, 10 per cent. What was the result? The man who built most inefficiently got the most money. If he built at almost twice the cost of the efficient shipbuilder, as he got a "plus" on top of his cost he got twice as much as the efficient man. My Lords, I have a great respect for most—indeed, I think all—of the main firms who are engaged in these contracts for these missiles, but the cost-plus basis must discourage economy, and must put a premium on inefficiency.
If your Lordships ask me what I would put in its place, I would say: exactly what we did during those days in the Air Ministry. Of course, you have to pay the cost incurred by the man. You cannot make him do work of which even he cannot estimate the cost with any accuracy, and hold him to a figure. If you tried, he would ask for some absolutely outside figure which covered every conceivable possibility. But what we did was this: we paid him his cost plus a fee. If I may take a concrete example, let us assume a contract worth £10,000—and, it will make many people who to-day have to place contracts for fighters envious to learn that £10,000 was about the cost of a Spitfire in those days. I remember (the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, will probably remember this, too) that when I was President of the Board of Trade we gave a Government guarantee for the "Queen Mary" and the "Queen Elizabeth". The total cost of those two liners was about £11 million—£5 million for one and £6 million for the other. Of course, costs are fantastically different to-day, but, surely, the principle is sound.
But to revert to my example, if £10,000 was the estimated cost, then you gave him that and a fee on top of it—say, 7½ per cent., which was a fair amount to put on to the cost. Now suppose that, instead of costing £10,000, the work cost £12,000 or £13,000. The man had to be paid his certified costs of production, but he was not given any extra fee. He got his £12,000 or £13,000, but he got only his £750 fee, instead of an
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ever-increasing "plus" upon the cost. Then, later on, when we had turned out a batch or two, we were able to place contracts either at a fixed price or at what we used to call a "bogy price", which meant a maximum price plus a share in savings—and the cheaper the manufacturer could produce it the larger was the share in the savings which he got. Of course, if he made an awful lot of money the Treasury could tax him. But what I was interested in was that the total bill to the taxpayer was considerably less and the efficiency of production was very much greater. I should like to ask my noble friend whether something on that line has been tried.
Now may I also clear up—and I think the answer to this must be obvious—one point about the testing of missiles? Of course we all hope, and hope most sincerely, that we shall get agreement on the stopping or suspending of nuclear tests; and the whole House will endorse what the First Lord of the Admiralty has said about how much we all, irrespective of Party, appreciated the Prime Minister's going to Washington—as, indeed, the whole country has appreciated his initiative throughout in this matter. However, that plan to stop the nuclear tests would apply only to the bomb, to the warhead or to any nuclear explosions connected therewith. I take it that it would not affect the testing of the instrument or vehicle, or whatever you like to call it, which launches or carries the explosive weapon.
Those tests, of the carrier or the vehicle, have none of the dangers of nuclear contamination, which is what we want to stop. It would seem to me that they are most necessary to test the capacity of the launchers or the carriers, and they appear to be essential to decide, whenever it can be decided, this vexed question of whether we ought to go for a static or a mobile launcher. I do not intend to go over again the ground we covered and the arguments advanced in favour of mobility as against the static launcher. The First Lord will have observed—and I think probably not with any displeasure, because it is true, as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said—that everybody talked about Blue Streak, but nobody, even on the Government side, appeared very keen to defend it; and there certainly was a tremendous weight

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of both Service opinion and administrative opinion advanced in favour of the mobile alternative. I should be glad if the Government could say something more on that matter.
I want to ask one specific question on this subject. Most of us read in the newspapers about a new invention for jamming radar—or perhaps it is not so new; one paper, I think, said it was five years old. If what is claimed for that is somewhere near the truth, it would appear to be an additional argument for mobile as against static launchers, and particularly as the new marks of our medium bombers, the Victor and the Vulcan, can, I understand, carry the stand-off bomb. I should be interested if the noble Earl could, with out impropriety, tell us something about that; or possibly noble Lords who are so interesting on these technical matters, like the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, could enlighten us further. I do not know whether it is germanium or germane, but I should be interested to hear what he has to say about it.
I want to ask this question, also, which I put last time, and perhaps it may be easier for the Government to answer when the Minister of Defence has paid his visit to America. I am sure we all want there to be the closest co-operation with the United States in all research and development in this field. After all, we are not coming as suppliants in this matter. The United States do it on a much greater scale, of course, but our scientists have proved that they are second to none, and they seem to be able to carry out these remarkable experiments at about one-twentieth of the cost at which anyone else in the world is able to do them: it really is "a Penny a time", and the price at which some of these experiments are carried out is quite amazing. I do not differ at all from the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. Like him, I want to see the closest possible integration, not only in research work and sharing plans but in the use of weapons. Certainly, rich as the United States are, it would help them, and anything that can save us a little is most acceptable. I believe that in production, use, integration and everything else, the closer we are together the more efficient and economical it will be.
There is one other question that I should like to put, and it has regard to
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Transport Command. We were all very much interested in what the First Lord told us about the North African exercise; I thought it was extremely satisfactory, particularly as regards the way in which all the machines seem to have stood up under their strenuous and difficult time in desert conditions. I think we should all like to have a little more detailed information about Transport Command. If I may put it in a sentence, it is this: how near are we to making the Army Mobile Reserve mobile? In war, of course, you can reinforce with civil aircraft from airlines and from charter companies; but you cannot do that in peace time for a localised operation. And even if you do draw on civil aircraft, it is only a partial answer, because while the civil aircraft can carry men, they cannot drop parachutists, and they certainly cannot carry heavy freight, vehicles and guns which a mobile reserve must have if it is to be mobile and effective. Therefore, to make that reserve mobile, Transport Command must be able to carry not only troops but all the equipment which they need. With our far-flung responsibilities we may have to reinforce at long distances and at short notice, and as bases get few and far between—and they are getting fewer and further between—that means long range aircraft which can carry both troops and their equipment, and relatively heavy equipment at that.
I think, from what we have heard about the Libyan exercise, that the Beverley is efficient at a comparatively short distance. But what about the longer range? There is the Britannic. I suppose that is the answer, and it looks like being an efficient answer if it comes right. But when will Transport Command have it? In the Defence White Paper it says that the Britannic will come along in due course. What is "due course": is it 1963, 1964 or 1965? We can argue about how relatively efficient one supersonic fighter or another is going to be, but unless we have the Britannic, and have it in reasonable time and it is successful, then the Army will not be mobile in its reserve for any long distance which is more than the Beverley can cover. I cannot find any answer to that in the Defence White Paper or in the individual Service Memoranda. I hope that the noble Earl who is to answer may be a little more specific about it.

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I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, that the facts which have emerged in the debates show that the Royal Air Force still has a vital rôle to play, and will have a vital rôle to play for a long time, and we know that it will play that rôle with all the efficiency that it has shown in the past. I hope that the realisation which comes out of these debates of how important that rôle is, and will continue to be, will be an encouragement—as I am sure the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, will be—to the men who are serving in the Royal Air Force to-day, and, what is not less important, an incentive to keen, good young men to come and join.
There is one thing that I feel I must say in conclusion, travelling somewhat wider than the details of the Air Estimates, on a subject which is vital to all these Services and to their purpose, and, indeed, to the whole concept of defence. I feel that I must repeat what I said in the defence debate as to the great danger to N.A.T.O. of an economic split in Europe. Since we had our debate the Prime Minister, in grave but measured terms, has spoken of it himself. I know how hard the Government have striven and are striving to avoid this, and in their effort to narrow the gap they are indeed serving the interests of the Alliance and of the Free World. There is nothing in these efforts which in any way runs counter to the closer political integration of Western Europe which this country has always supported. But it would be impossible for the N.A.T.O. Grand Alliance, on which the security of the Free World depends, to remain effective or ultimately to survive if this economic division persisted and widened. Certainly this country could not afford, and its people would not tolerate, that we should maintain on the Continent of Europe, at vast expense in foreign currency, large military and air forces if, at the same time, we were the object of a sort of economic cold war by those very countries which those forces were there to protect.
4.30 p.m.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, this afternoon I propose to make only a few remarks with regard to the Air Memorandum we are discussing, and they will be limited to Bomber Command, Fighter Command and our forces in the Arabian Peninsula. With regard to Bomber
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Command, I should like particularly to take this opportunity of thanking the noble Lord, the First Lord of the Admiralty, for his letter, following on our recent Defence debate, in which he confirmed that realistic exercises are being undertaken by Bomber Command with a view to perfecting the technique of simultaneously "scrambling" V-bombers from a number of airfields. I am particularly glad that the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, mentioned this point, and also the question of dispersal of our bombers. I was also glad to note, on reading the Air Memorandum, that the number of countries visited by aircraft of Bomber Command rose last year to 23, when I believe the previous year only 18 countries were visited.
In view of the statement contained in paragraph 10 of the Memorandum, that:
"The Mark 2 Vulcans and Victors will be capable of carrying both free-falling and 'stand-off' nuclear weapons …"
I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to an article which appeared in the Daily Telegraph on March 15 last referring to what was described as
"a revolutionary electronic device known as the Carcinotron."
I believe that that may be the equipment to which my noble friend Lord Swinton was referring earlier on. The article is by an air correspondent, who says:
"I understand the device, which was developed in France, is fitted to Victor and Vulcan V-bombers. By giving them a much greater degree of immunity to attack than was previously possible it will enhance their value as the 'deterrent' for many years."
That is a highly encouraging statement indeed. But as every rose has its thorn, I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to another statement which was made in that same article and which reads as follows:
"It can also render the guidance system of some types of anti-aircraft missiles useless."
During the course of a debate in another place on March 25 last on the Fylingdales missile warning station the Under-Secretary of State for Air said—and since it has again been mentioned to-day by the First Lord it is obviously the Government way of thinking at the moment [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 620 (No. 85), col. 896]:
"At present, the main threat to this country is from manned aircraft, and it will continue to be so for some years."

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He seemed also to stress the importance—and I would heartily agree with him—of putting the matter in its correct time scale.
That brings me to Fighter Command, and in particular to paragraph 18 of the Memorandum which refers to the deployment of our anti-aircraft missile system. In an article under the heading "Brains and Push-Buttons", which came out in the first issue of a publication produced by the Central Office of Information for the Air Ministry (the publication is called Officer), there is the following statement:
"The anti-aircraft rocket needs radar guidance. That is to say, it homes on to the echoes of electronic impulses either sent out by itself or by a ground transmitter."
In the realm of defence, I know that directly one device comes into production another is on the drawing board with a view to countering it. But in spite of that fact, I was a little dismayed, when I checked in Paris with an authoritative source—apart from the firm concerned which produces this equipment to which I referred just now—to find out the following facts. This device first came into being about four or five years ago. At that time the inventor (I understand that he is a Professor Warnecke) was trying to promote interest in his invention. He also published particulars in a technical journal—I believe a Swiss journal—and it was then suddenly realised that this device had highly important military potentialities. It can therefore be reasonably assumed that, since particulars were published, the Russians knew of it, and may have developed its use and fitted it into their own bombers. I apologise if I weary your Lordships with these technical details—
THE EARL OF SWINTON: Had the Professor produced a specimen of this equipment?
LORD MERRIVALE: Is my noble friend referring to four or five years ago? It is a valve, and it has to be incorporated in specialised equipment.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: But he has produced it—it exists.
LORD MERRIVALE: It exists. As I say, the threat of this device lies mainly
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in the fact that it covers an extremely wide band of frequencies. As your Lordships who were in the Royal Air Force may be aware, if one gets jamming on one waveband, one switches to another. But here it is highly probable that, if you switched to another band, jamming or interference would still be there, and it would not be possible for a missile to "home" on the interference because this equipment gives a sort of protective electronic halo of interference which could completely confuse the missile. In view of the operational deployment of our anti-aircraft missiles to which I referred earlier, could the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, when he replies, give the House some assurance with regard to the effectiveness of our present anti-aircraft missile system?
To turn to the question of our forces in the Arabian Peninsula, I should like to consider first paragraph 34, and in particular the following statement—I apologise for again reading these few lines.
"… the main tasks of the Royal Air Force have been to police the frontiers of the Aden Protectorate and to operate in the Persian Gulf area. Operations in the Persian Gulf area have included the air transport of quantities of equipment, personnel and supplies to desert air strips, aerial reconnaissance and policing."
I am sorry that the First Lord did not mention the question of our forces in the Arabian Peninsula, but I presume that the noble Earl, Lord Bathurst, will be doing so later. From an operational aspect I was particularly pleased to read in an Army publication, the January, 1960, edition of the Army Quarterly, an interesting review of events in the Arabian Peninsula. This article rightly pays tribute to the work of the R.A.F. out there. It stresses, too—as is mentioned in the Air Memorandum, and examples were given in this Article—that one of the main problems of the Command is the distribution of stores and equipment, which, apart from one or two exceptions, is carried out by air. I believe that to Dhala, for instance, they go by road; but mainly they go by air.
The article went on to say that this distribution was efficiently and effectively done in spite of many emergency requests, unserviceability and adverse conditions. I think it is encouraging to read in an Army publication such statements

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as the following words of praise. These are the exact words:
"Taking into consideration the Aden climate, the fact that the Beverleys continue to carry out their duties speaks volumes for the ability of the R.A.F. maintenance crews. The problems of normal servicing are increased one hundred-fold by the intense heat, the humidity and the abrasive sand and gypsum-charged winds which consistently sweep the R.A.F. station at Khormaksar. During the summer months the maximum time that can be spent working on the wing of a transport aircraft varies from ten to fifteen minutes."
As a member of a delegation that visited Aden last September I heartily agree with those words.
To turn now to the question of accommodation in general, I was particularly pleased to see the detail and the time that was devoted to this important matter by the Under-Secretary of State for Air in another place on March 5 last: in particular when he mentioned the question of new accommodation. All this new accommodation is to be completely air-conditioned, and I understand from the statement made by the Under-Secretary of State for Air that the temporary new accommodation which is going up at the moment in the form of aluminium hutments will also he air-conditioned. During the course of this debate the Under-Secretary of State for Air went on to say that when he was last in Aden he promised the R.A.F. that the Air Ministry would do everything in its power to jot prove conditions. A business acquaintance of mine, a civil engineer, returned from Aden three weeks ago, and he confirmed to me that everything is being done to improve conditions out there. To use his exact words: "The pressure is definitely on". According to his statement—and he is an engineer, as is the Under-Secretary of State for Air—work is proceeding most satisfactorily with regard to the construction of the school and the accommodation for our personnel.
There is one point on which I should like some clarification—I do not think it is mentioned at all in the Memorandum—and that is what is being done for our troops out there with regard to recreational facilities. I believe that a bathing pool is being built at the moment between Khormaksar and Aden, but I am certain that the House would be pleased to know what else is being done to improve the lot of our Service personnel in Aden, so that a tour of duty out there will become
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less and less burdensome. In conclusion, whilst hoping that the noble Earl will be able to answer one or two of my queries, I would say that I feel absolutely confident that we can have complete faith in the personnel of the Royal Air Force, provided they are given the right equipment and a correct time scale.
4.46 p.m.
LORD HARDING OF PETHERTON: My Lords, I should like to open my remarks by identifying myself completely with the congratulatory remarks which were made by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, about the morale and efficiency of the Royal Air Force as a whole. Having on many occasions been a passenger and a guest of Transport Command and the Royal Air Force, and as recently as last August, I know from personal experience what tremendous efforts they make and what great success they have in providing service for their passengers and hospitality for their guests.
I would take advantage of this opportunity to follow up in some detail two questions raised the other day in the debate on the Defence White Paper: first of all, the question of inter-Service relationships, with particular reference to relationships between R.A.F. Transport Command and the Army secondly, the future development of Transport Command with particular reference to the provision of freighters, freight-carrying aircraft and helicopters. A week or so ago in an article in The Times that has already been mentioned in this debate, Transport Command was referred to as the Cinderella of the Royal Air Force. In my opinion the name was aptly designed for more than one reason. As I remember the fairy story, Cinderella married the prince and they lived happily ever after, and to fulfil its destiny Transport Command must, I am certain, be wedded to the Army. Unless their marriage is a really happy and lasting one our whole system of defence will pay the penalty and there will be a great waste of men, money and materials.
That leads me directly to the first question I wish to discuss, namely, inter-Service relationships in general and relationships between Transport Command and the Army in particular. I have been trained to pause and think deeply before using the word "vital", but I

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have no hesitation whatever in saying that close and happy relationships between the Army and the R.A.F. are absolutely vital if our land forces are to have the mobility they need to carry out their many and varied tasks. In fact, I would go so far as to say that in this particular field co-operation is not enough; integration more nearly describes what is required. But let me say at once that I do not share the fear expressed in the Defence debate, I think by the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, that at the highest level relationships between the fighting Services are bedevilled by personal jealousies and rivalries. Speaking generally, I would say that these relationships are, in my experience, better to-day than they have ever been before. There are closer contacts at all levels, wider knowledge and understanding of the other man's point of view, and, most important of all, a great fund of good will. That is all to the good. But there are, and are bound to be, contrary interests and differences of opinion which are strongly felt and forcefully expressed. As the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, will possibly remember, I have had some personal experience of such differences in the past, and there are, and always will be, cases in which opinions differ so strongly that nothing short of an arbitrary decision will resolve the problem. Such decisions must be made promptly, otherwise there is bound to be an unacceptable delay.
The Service chiefs have to work together day by day. The three Chiefs of Staff have a duty to their own Service as well as a corporate responsibility for advising the Government on defence as a whole. Their common purpose and their common sense produce the right answer more often than not, but as the strings of the money bags are drawn tighter and tighter as our annual Whitehall witch-hunt for more defence at less cost takes place, so the conflict of interests is bound to become more acute. As the problems and difficulties become more and more complex, the differences of opinion are more difficult to resolve. If the Chiefs of Staff were to proceed on what I might describe as a "dog eat cat" basis they would soon destroy themselves and destroy their value to the Government and to the nation. As
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serious differences arise—differences which cannot be resolved; differences of the kind that I have mentioned—then the Minister of Defence must step in and decide. To decide rightly and to decide in time in these matters calls for knowledge and experience as well as foresight and courage; and to get the decisions accepted and carried out calls for leadership and tact. Continuity of policy and of programme also plays a very big part.
The development of Transport Command as the medium of mobility is very much a case in point. There are bound to be strong differences of opinion between the two Services involved. Success will primarily depend on relationships between them, on their confidence in each other and on the knowledge that both are set on the same course towards a common end. The impulse to that end must, in my view and experience, stem from the Minister of Defence himself. Changes there must be. But during the three years that I held the appointment as Chief of the Imperial General Staff there were no fewer than five different Ministers who held the office of Minister of Defence. I sincerely hope that those days are gone, and that we can now look forward to a period in which there will be continuity in the Ministry of Defence—a period in which the course is fairly set and the objectives clearly defined. If the Service Chiefs can count on getting decisions, and decisions in good time, on matters of policy which they cannot, and should not, decide for themselves, I have no fears whatever for the future of inter-Service relationships, or for the success of the union of the Cinderella of the Royal Air Force with the Service to which I have the honour to belong.
I should now like to turn for a moment to some questions of detail about the development of Transport Command. In the official statements made in your Lordships' House and in another place about the capacity of Transport Command, the emphasis has been more on passenger mileage than on the carriage of freight; but I should like to point out that the Army's requirement is as much a question of carrying freight as of carrying men. It is the transport by air of the vehicles and the heavier types of weapons that presents the greatest

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problems. As has already been pointed out, the passenger capacity of Transport Command can be increased in emergency by impressing aircraft from the Corporations and the charter companies, but those aircraft are useless for vehicles and for the heavier types of weapon. Incidentally, they are also useless for dropping parachutists.
In replying for the Government to the debate on the Defence White Paper, the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, said that in exercise "Starlight" a force of some 4,000 men, and, he said then, 130 vehicles but this afternoon he has said that there were some 200 vehicles, were carried. They were being transported some 2,000 miles to North Africa. I am delighted and most impressed with the reports that he has given us this afternoon and which have appeared, too, in the Press, of the success of that exercise. It reflects great credit on the two Services involved. But although I should be the last to suggest making unnecessary additions to the tail of any force, even a total of some 200 vehicles for all purposes is, in my experience, insufficient to give full tactical and administrative mobility and flexibility to the number of troops involved in this particular exercise.
When we look ahead in the matter of vehicles and weapon carrying capacity, it seems that for the next two, or perhaps three, years Transport Command will have to rely upon existing obsolete Hastings and obsolescent Beverleys. The Argosy, the A.W.660, when it begins to come into service in 1962, will not, so I am told, take the heavier loads that the Army needs, and it will not be until the Britannic comes to hand that Transport Command will be able to lift everything that the Army requires. So far as I am aware—another question has been asked on this point this afternoon—no delivery date has yet been forecast for the Britannic, but, speaking on that question in another place, the Under-Secretary of State for Air said:
"There has been too much delay already, and I am doing everything I possibly can to push on all concerned with the business."
He did not go on to explain why there had been too much delay over getting the Britannic into service, but it looks as if there is a real danger that much the same will happen again over a
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replacement for the Beverley unless urgent steps are taken soon to decide what the design for that replacement is to be.
My Lords, as I see it, there must, generally speaking, be three links in the chain of air transport and supply to give the Army the strategic and tactical mobility that it requires. The first is the strategic link from the United Kingdom to the main overseas airfield or complex of airfields—for example, to Cyprus, Nairobi and Aden for the Middle East and the Persian Gulf or to Singapore and the Far East. This link will not be satisfactorily provided until the Britannic comes into service; and we do not yet know when that will be. That, I think, is an item of the greatest importance.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, would the noble Lord allow me to interrupt? A date was mentioned last year as the earliest date—1964. That was mentioned by the Minister of Defence in another place.
LORD HARDING OF PETHERTON: I was not aware that a date had ever been given. May I thank the noble Lord? The year 1964 is a very long way off to find a replacement, or rather to find the aircraft that is needed to supply the first essential link in the structure which I have started to describe. So I would join with the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, when he asks, as I think I am right in saying, for greater speed in producing the Britannic and bringing it into service, and for consideration to be given to the possibility of finding a substitute if the delay is going to be as great as appears.
The second link is what I would describe as the intermediate link—that is, from the main airfield or complex of airfields to the forward airfields: for example, Sharjah and Bahrein in the Middle East, to Northern Malaya or Borneo, or even Thailand, in the Far East. At present that link is meagrely covered by the obsolete Hastings and Beverley aircraft, for which, as I have said, no replacement is planned: so that that link does not appear to look healthy for the more distant future, as the Beverleys begin to need replacement. Finally, there is the tactical link from the forward airfields to the troops. In some cases, of course, it may be possible

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to cut out the intermediate link altogether, but, even so, there will remain the parachutist functions for which the strategic link aircraft are unsuitable; and on that account alone a replacement for the Beverley must be provided. For some time to come the tactical link can be filled only by helicopters and aircraft of the Pioneer type. The position with regard to helicopters is not at all clear. I was told only two days ago by a representative of Westland Aircraft that as far as he was aware no order for Wessex Aircraft for the Army had as yet been placed.
Referring again to exercise "Starlight", the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, said in the debate on the Defence White Paper that some helicopters were being flown out for use in that exercise. He referred again this afternoon to the use of helicopters in that exercise; but in actual fact, if my information is correct, the number of aircraft employed in that exercise was comparatively small—and only Whirlwinds at that, which carry a very limited load. I do not know exactly what is the payload of the Whirlwind, but I believe it is something of the order of 1,500 to 1,700 1b. The Wessex payload is 4,000 1b. and it is a matter of great urgency that some of those helicopters, or something with an equivalent payload, should be provided for this last tactical link in this structure of air transport which I have been describing. Again on the point of helicopters, some fifteen months ago, when visiting, in Aden, the regiment of which I have the honour to be Colonel, I found that there were no helicopters at all in the Southern Arabian Command, an area where I should have thought they could be immensely useful to give greater mobility and also to save manpower in the land forces there. I hope that that situation has since been improved.
From the information that is available, I find it difficult to get a clear picture of the Government's plan to make effective the structure of air transport that I have been describing; and I am particularly concerned, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, about the provision of freight-carrying aircraft and helicopters. I should like to ask the noble Earl who is to reply for Her Majesty's Government whether he can give me more
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detailed information on three major questions, all of which, I believe, have already been raised this afternoon; certainly two of them have. The first is the programme for the production and delivery into service of the Britannic; secondly, the plans, if there are any, for a replacement for the Beverley; thirdly, the situation in regard to helicopters, and particularly in such places as Southern Arabia, where it seems to me they could be put to very good use, in addition to helicopters for the strategic reserve.
I realise the difficulties and, indeed, the dangers of planning too far ahead in these days of rapid technical development in the aeronautical field, but as I believe it takes from eight to ten years after writing the specification before an aircraft can be in service, I feel strongly that there would be much greater confidence in the Government's intention to make a reality of mobility—on which so much stress has, rightly, been laid—if they would produce a ten-year development plan for Transport Command. It would be of the greatest interest if such a plan could be produced and published. But if, for security reasons, it is not possible for it to be published, then I am certain it would be of immense value to the War Office, and indeed to the whole of the Army, in formulating its plans for the organisation, equipment and training of the Army, if some such plan could be produced.
In conclusion, may I associate myself strongly with the remarks made by the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, about the very great dangers of any split in the economic field between ourselves and our partners in N.A.T.O.? It is not difficult to imagine the feelings of a soldier or an airman stationed in Western Europe who is asked, on the one hand, to cooperate wholeheartedly (as indeed he does) with our Allies in working and training for the defence of Western Europe, when he knows, on the other hand, that his own country is being discriminated against in the economic field.
5.6 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, for several years I have taken part in these debates on the Air Estimates, usually moving the Motion which to-day has been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and I should like to con-

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gratulate him on the clear exposition he has given us. From my own experience it is not at all an easy Motion to move, because the Memorandum on the Air Estimates is usually so tied up with the general Defence picture that it is much harder to sever that Memorandum, and to make a constructive speech upon it, than to do so on the Army Estimates.
I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and also the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Harding of Petherton, in their request to Her Majesty's Government to do all they can for Transport Command. This also we have pressed upon the Government for years past. It is most important and, like the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Harding of Petherton, I was rather depressed to learn that the Britannic is not coming into service until 1964. I had no idea of that. I thought we should be having a Britannic next year, or in 1962 at the latest.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: That is the Britannia.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I wanted particularly, however, to ask the noble Earl who is to reply a question about recruiting. Looking at the latest figures available to us in the Printed Paper Office, I find, to my consternation, that the actual figure of Regular other ranks on February 1, 1960, was 119,100. That is the total in the R.A.F. The actual estimate of the strength of the Royal Air Force at April 1, 1961, is 163,000. In other words, between the figure of Regular recruitment and the number the R.A.F. is expected to contain on April 1 next there is a shortfall of 39,000. That excludes women.
I should like particularly to ask the noble Earl who is to reply how it is proposed to make good this figure, because I admit that it was rather a shock to me. A shortfall of 39,000 in a total of 163,000 is very considerable. It means that in a year's time—because the National Service intake is ceasing this year—in order to keep up the numbers to the position to-day, there will have to be an extra 39,000 men recruited. As that is far more than it has been possible to recruit for many years past—indeed, the actual figures of Regular recruitment are going down slightly—this seems to be a picture that we have to face in this debate upon the Air Estimates, because
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although machines are very important, as we all know, the manpower is equally important.
I believe that during the war the Spitfire and the Hurricane, two first-class machines, were not in fact as fast as the fastest German fighters. So it was not only the fighters, the Hurricanes and Spitfires, that won the Battle of Britain and other air combats; the men who flew them also made an enormous contribution. It is not much good talking about Transport Command, about the new supersonic fighters and all the rest of it, if the number of men in the Air Force is declining to a figure which I should have thought would mean that the Air Force will not be able to carry on with anything like its present commitments. I think we ought to have an answer on that; it is a very serious point.
The second point I want to raise concerns the Royal Auxiliary Air Force. I, and other Members of your Lordships' House, made a strong protest at the time the Royal Auxiliary Air Force was discontinued, when it was disbanded. I felt that it was a mistake. Of course, this was all bound up in the 1957 decision of Mr. Sandys, when he decided that we were not going to need any more manned bombers and fighters, and that we were going to rely upon the nuclear deterrent. Now, obviously, though it has never been stated in so many words that there is a change, in fact the Government have changed their mind and we are going for as long as we can see to have both manned fighters and bombers. Is there not, therefore, a need to reintroduce and re-establish the Royal Auxiliary Air Force?
The reason given at the time for disbanding this fine force was that the members could not learn to fly the highly technical and complicated machines which the bombers and fighters of the Royal Air Force were becoming; that in the new jet age, with these acrobatics at enormous heights, it was quite impossible to expect civilian—part-time civilian, part-time military—pilots to master them. Surely, if that is so (and I am not in a position to say it is not), there are a number of other duties which the Royal Auxiliary Air Force can undertake. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, to-day referred to

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Coastal Command. There is also Transport Command, which he and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Harding of Petherton, have been discussing at length. What about those? Surely there are a large number of duties here which Royal Auxiliary Air Force Squadrons could undertake, not only in time of war but in time of peace.
I would therefore put a plea to the Government, and particularly to the noble Earl who is to reply, and ask him whether it is not possible to look at this whole question again, partly in order to assist with manpower, which as I have shown is declining very rapidly, and also because, in my own district at all events, there is no question that it was felt at the time that, from a psychological point of view, it was a great mistake to do away with the Auxiliary squadrons. They preserved with the Royal Air Force, in areas remote from London and remote from the large Royal Air Force stations, a very valuable link—a link which, unhappily, has been severed. I would say that both on practical and on psychological grounds there is a case for the reintroduction of the Auxiliary Air Force.
The third and last point which I should like to ask the noble Earl who is going to reply is this. Do the Government really think that Cyprus is worth the cost that it is going to mean in money, in fraying of tempers, in difficulties of political and diplomatic approach, of administration—all the vast complexities that will go into the handling of our bases in Cyprus? Is it worth it? Do the Royal Air Force really need Cyprus? We know that in the attack by the Jewish forces in the Sinai Peninsula and the Suez incident the French fighters flew in support from the British bases in Cyprus. But I imagine that we are not again likely to be in the position of wanting to keep a base there in the expectation of supporting a Jewish attack on the Egyptians or of supporting anyone else. Apart from that somewhat remote contingency, is there any real need for Cyprus?
At one time its real need was as a staging post and even in that respect, with the continually extending radius that aircraft have to-day, it would seem to be no longer as important as it has been in the past We still have Aden and we have,
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of course, the island of Gan. I would seriously ask the Royal Air Force and the Government to look at this whole question, because one can see from the way in which negotiations in the island of Cyprus are being extended—the fact that no decision is being arrived at—that there may be grave complexities in the future. Those are all the points I have to raise to-day. I should like from these Benches to join with the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in congratulating the Royal Air Force and all ranks of the Royal Air Force in the fine work they have done under very difficult conditions during the past year, and to wish them every success in the year that is to come.
5.16 p.m.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, I will not detain your Lordships for more than a few minutes. I deeply regret that unexpected developments prevented my being here at the opening of the debate, but what I have heard of it has covered so much of what I was going to say that there is little left for me with which to detain your Lordships. You might permit me to say, however, I think as the only Minister who has combined the functions of Supply and Aircraft Production, that I am a little disappointed that, even now, the Government have given no clear description of what are the relations between the Air Ministry and the Ministry of Aviation, who take over the aviation functions of the Ministry of Supply. I wish we could get this sorted out.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord will forgive me for intervening. We had a debate on this subject in which I explained at great length the relations. They are exactly the same as those between the Secretary of State for Air and the Air Ministry and the Ministry of Supply.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, if that is so I should like to look into it to see how it works. I will say no more about it now.
The second point has already been more than adequately covered by the interesting speech by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Harding of Petherton, whose knowledge is so wide and up to date that I could not hope to improve upon it, except to say this. I think it

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is a very sad thing, and an unexplained thing, that the Government have been so long in giving a firm order for the development of the Britannic. I should like to know whether, in fact, firm orders have been given to Short's in Belfast to get on with this job in adequate numbers, because it is a tremendously important thing, in my view, vastly to improve the transport services rendered by the Royal Air Force to the Army.
I speak from now on entirely for myself and not for my friends, but my own view is that the Air Force, like the Army and Navy, have suffered grievously from what I believe is the mistaken decision taken by Mr. Duncan Sandys, when Minister of Defence, to place primary reliance for our defence upon nuclear rockets. I believe—and I do not mind going on record to this effect—that we shall find that that has been a lamentable mistake and that this country cannot maintain an independent nuclear deterrent; and that we must therefore rely upon our partnership with America or the other great Power in this matter. What we cannot afford to do, in my view, is to run down the Army, the Air Force and the Navy for the pursuit of this illusory defence; and I believe that, with our responsibilities, widespread as they still are to those who depend upon us for their defence, our part in the world is to look after the other forms of defence. It is not to give priority to what I believe will prove to be an expensive and perhaps even disastrous illusion. I ask the Government to bear those views in mind, because I think they are shared much more widely than they believe.
5.21 p.m.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, a debate upon air power by the experts in your Lordships' House from both sides of the Floor of the House is always a valuable occasion. Really valuable contributions have been made this afternoon, and I know that those will go forward to my right honourable friend in another place, the Secretary of State, and that he will consider them with all the weight that contributions from your Lordships carry. My noble friend Lord Carrington has asked me to say that he has had to be absent from the Chamber owing to an important meeting which he must attend, and he asks your Lordships' forgiveness.
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My noble friend gave the broad outline of what the Air Estimates will achieve. As the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said—and I believe he is the only one who mentioned it—£527 million is to be spent in the course of the next year in the cause of the country's defence. My noble friend gave an outline of the broad policy, and spoke about the deterrent, the V-bomber force, Thor, Fighter Command, Transport Command and Coastal Command. Across the Floor of the House and on political platforms we no doubt use almost a jargon when referring to all these various trends in the Royal Air Force to-day. We talk about "sophisticated" weapons—I think that was the term which my noble friend used. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, has just said, what is the good of even the most sophisticated weapon (the "hardware", as it is now called, whatever it may have been called in the day of the noble Lord, Lord Wilmot of Selmeston) unless there are the men and the women to go with it? For that reason, I am going to concentrate upon the manpower and the woman power, and on their families, too, before I settle down to answer the many questions, or as many of them as I can, put to me by your Lordships.
We have heard of the four-minute deterrent, but the men and women behind that deterrent are just the same—the men, at any rate, are just the same—as they were in the days when the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Stansgate (and it is a pity that he is not in his seat), flew aeroplanes in the First World War. I suggest that the only process in this four-minute deterrent which the noble Viscount would recognise is the old-fashioned chock which is used to keep the aircraft stationary when it is run up. Nobody has invented anything better than that, apparently, and it still has to be pulled away with a piece of string when the pilot gives the "thumbs up" signal. Those things are still the same to-day as they were in the old days, and we are almost proud of them—the old ways to which, indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, paid credit.
First a word on recruiting—and this is where the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore,

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came in; I am answering the last first. In the aircrew field, 1959 was a much better year than 1958, but we should still like to see more young men of high quality coming forward. However, the trend is welcome evidence of the fact that any damage done by over-hasty popular interpretations of the 1957 Defence White Paper has largely been put right; and I assure your Lordships that my right honourable friend will consider everything that the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, said about manpower. I could not quite follow the figures which he produced, but I have with me some figures which should clear the matter up. I will not weary your Lordships with them this evening, but I will show them afterwards to the noble Lord, whose misgiving rests, I believe, on a misunderstanding.
There are still shortfalls in the entrants to some of the ground commissions, particularly in the Technical branch. To meet this latter need, there is to be a new scheme for the award of permanent commissions, with the rank of up to flight-lieutenant on entry, to qualified and experienced engineers direct from civilian life. Of course, it is to be expected that the new pay rates and the new career structure for officers (which I shall refer to again in a moment or two) will also have a very marked effect in closing the gap.
As to airmen, there continues to be a welcome rise in the long-service element of the Force. On January 1 last, 60 per cent. of the airmen were serving on engagements of nine years or more, as compared with 49 per cent. in the earlier year. National Servicemen now comprise only 14 per cent. of the total. Here I should like to pay a tribute, on behalf of all of your Lordships, to the National Servicemen who have been trained compulsorily in the service of their country over the years since 1945. Many young men up and down the country have received tremendous benefit—great skills, new knowledge, and new friendships as well—from their service in the Royal Air Force. We know there are occasional misfits, and no doubt that is so in every force where conscription must be used. But remember, my Lords, that they still exist as a force of real strategic value. It needs only the word from the people who give the word, and there will be an
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enormous trained body of ex-National Servicemen to come into the Royal Air Force should the need arise.
There are still some shortages of Regular airmen in certain branches, mainly in the radio and electronic fields. We have heard interesting contributions from both the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, and the noble Earl about the technical aspects of electronics, and I shall be coming to these later in my speech. In the less immediately attractive, though vital, jobs in the administrative fields there are also some vacancies; but the recruitment of boy entrants, in particular, has been running at a very satisfactory level.
I must add a word now about the Women's Royal Air Force, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore. I am glad to say that the figures—or rather, perhaps, we should say the totals—for 1959 were the best for several years. There were 2,279 new airwomen, 800 more than in 1958. I regret that research cannot give me the net increase or the net wastage (whatever we should call it) because of marriage, but I will endeavour to find out and let the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, know by post. The local service scheme accounted for 406 out of the increase—very nearly half. This increase is a most welcome contribution to the strength of the Service, although here again we should like to see the total grow still further. To make service on a normal engagement more attractive, the number of places in which the Women's Royal Air Force personnel can serve overseas has been increased; and interest in the local engagement scheme has stimulated recruiting under the normal engagement scheme very considerably. The Air Council is now reviewing this local scheme in the light of the experience gained over the past years, and is considering what changes can usefully be made.
Now I come to the pay side of the Air Estimates. This accounts for £113 million for this year—a very considerable figure. The picture of recruitment is, on the whole, an encouraging one; but, as I have indicated to your Lordships, there are still very real problems in certain areas. The principal material factor is the standard of living and the conditions within the Service; so, partly

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to stimulate recruiting, and still more because the Royal Air Force is in any event entitled to really high standards, the Air Ministry have set in motion plans for extensive progress in these matters.
Your Lordships are already aware of the general pay increases announced by Her Majesty's Government last February for all three Services, following the first of what will in future be regular two-yearly reviews. May I give your Lordships two examples? A married flight-lieutenant pilot in the general duties branch, could in his twenties be earning not far short of £2,000 a year; and a married chief technician in an advanced trade—say, a V-bomber servicing chief—could get in the region of £22 a week. This latter figure takes into account the Royal Air Force's new trade pay scheme. This provides for special supplements at varying rates to airmen exercising particularly high skills, and it is a further example of the increasing importance placed by the Service on the top-class technician. As an example again, I may say that these trade pay rates have been raised from the present 10s. 6d. a week to amounts varying from 14s. to 45s. 6d. a week, which I think your Lordships will agree is a considerable rise.
I come now to the new officer career structure. There have been important changes here. Your Lordships may recall the stimulating and valuable Report made in 1958 by Sir James Grigg's Advisory Committee on Recruiting, which drew special attention to the fact that the system whereby an officer might have to go out into civil life at any age from about 40 onwards, according to the rank he had reached, was a real deterrent to recruiting. I recall that the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Kenwood (I am sorry he is not here to-day), made that point in our debate here last year. Your Lordships will be pleased that this new officer career structure goes far to meet this valid point. I shall not detain your Lordships with a full exposition of what inevitably is, in its details, a complicated scheme, but the crucial point is that the normal general list officer on a permanent commission will have a free choice between leaving the Service with a pension at the age of 38 and serving on until the age of 55. Between these ages he will be able to apply for voluntary retirement, subject to Service needs, at any time he wishes; but, given con-
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tinued good health and competence, he will not be liable to be forced out into civilian life at the awkward age when domestic responsibilities tend to be at their highest and when resettlement is most difficult. That must surely be a very real point to be considered in attracting the young men of high quality to fly and to operate the machines about which we have been hearing.
And when an officer does retire he will have the benefit of the much improved rates of retired pay announced in Command Paper 945. R.A.F. pension arrangements now are perhaps more favourable than in almost any other career; and of course they are completely non-contributory. There will naturally be some slight drawbacks in this new career structure, in that promotion may tend to be rather slower, and occassionally there may be some inconvenience to the Service itself from the decision to leave the choice of retiring point to the individual officer; but on balance we think it a great advance.
I should like to draw the attention of your Lordships to a new booklet, which I think was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, called Officer. This explains the new career structure and the career of a Royal Air Force officer. It is completely new, and I will see that it is put in your. Lordships' Library. I can assure your Lordships that it will be made available to all schoolmasters whose task it is to advise boys on careers. It is a most interesting document, and I am sure that schoolmasters, boys and their parents will find it so.
I come now to the question of accommodation. The noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, asked in particular about Aden. I do not intend to go into the whole position of Aden in detail, but I feel sure that the figures I shall give in the course of my speech will cheer the noble Lord considerably. I want to make it clear that the Aden problem is only one aspect of Royal Air Force accommodation. I emphasise, nevertheless, as the noble Lord rightly said, that the pressure is on and that work is now going ahead on a scale I shall indicate in a moment. We must get the matter of Aden into true perspective, and I want to reassure your Lordships that the Government fully appreciate the position

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there and will continue to act energetically to improve it. In addition to all the work actually in progress now, there is a further £3 million building programme (about which the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, spoke) to be started this year. The only limitations upon what is being done are physical ones, such as the availability of land and the capacity of the local building industry.
It would be a pity, however, if this special problem of Aden distracted attention from the Air Ministry's wider plans for personnel and family accommodation. These plans are stated in paragraphs 66 and 67 of the Memorandum, but I think it would be worth explaining them more fully in your Lordships' House. There is no doubt that to-day the Royal Air Force continues to rely upon the magnificent permanent housing which was largely the responsibility of my noble friend, Lord Swinton. I can well remember certain of the noble Earl's friends at that time arguing whether the R.A.F.'s great hangars and buildings would or would not be bombed. Nevertheless, they were not bombed, or a large proportion of them were not, and we have in them a great investment for the force of to-day. I am informed that just one hangar to house a V-bomber would cost a vast sum in to-day's money. Luckily, and largely thanks to the noble Earl, there are hangars of such size available.
The Air Council have now decided that the time has come for another big advance in the field of new housing, and over £10 million is to be spent in the next twelve months. At home there are contracts for some 2,000 married quarters, and 1,800 (some of them started last year) should be actually completed during the year. Plans also include 47 new barrack blocks, each for 80 men; single quarters for 180 officers and 590 senior N.C.O.s; 13 new messes, 3 N.A.A.F.I. clubs, 8 gymnasia and 4 churches. Much work will also be done to modernise existing barrack blocks and mess kitchens. That is on the home front. Overseas, the plans provide for 600 new married quarters; some 2,350 single quarters; 15 new or extended messes; 4 new N.A.A.F.I. clubs; 2 new hospitals and 5 new schools. All this relates to work for which financial provision is made in the 1960–61 Estimates;
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further work is envisaged for later years. I think your Lordships will agree that the Government are tackling this problem of accommodation for men and their families in the resolute way which the noble Lord has called for.
I want to turn now to the question of manpower economy, a great deal of which is bound up with what the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, had to say, and to which the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, also referred. In this respect the Air Council are tackling the manpower problem the other end round, as one might say; that is, the drive to get more Regular recruits is being complemented by making the most economical and effective use of the manpower already in the Service. This is essential if the Royal Air Force is to achieve as much as it would like with the smaller all-Regular forces of the future. The Air Ministry is considering with each Commander-in-Chief in turn the extent to which he can reduce his needs for Service manpower while still carrying out his particular rôle efficiently. This special review is still in progress, but it is expected to result in saving thousands of Service posts.
Perhaps I might be allowed to give some instances of what has already been clone. The Royal Air Force were pioneers in the field of work study with which this is largely concerned. Everybody knows that much of its effort goes, quite rightly, to improving operational efficiency; but work study has resulted in savings in manpower at the same time. As one example, improved signals-handling procedures—whatever they may be—have saved about 200 airmen who were previously doing such jobs. They are released for more skilled posts.
Another method of reducing the need for uniformed Service manpower is to hand tasks over to industry. It is planned to put a number of servicing tasks at non-operational stations out to contract. For instance, in one station alone 600 Service posts should be eliminated in the course of the next year by this means. In addition, during the past two years catering by contractors and by directly employed civilians has been tried out on a number of Royal Air Force stations. The trials have been encouraging, and during the year to come some ten or twelve stations will be added to the list

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of the places where the catering is done entirely by civilians, employed either by the Air Ministry or by contractors. Nevertheless, Parkinson's Law is being kept at bay. In the last two years, 7,000 Service posts have actually been converted into civilian posts, and yet at the same time, in the same period, the total of civilians employed has dropped by 6,000.
I ask your Lordships' indulgence for having taken so long on the manpower side. But I want your Lordships to understand what Her Majesty's Government are doing in the human field, the field of personnel, the men and the women and their families, in order to achieve high standards. With your Lordships' permission, I should like to deal now with the questions raised to-day, and I will try my best to get them in the order in which they came.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, asked about the TSR2. I should like to make it clear that the TSR2 is best described as a Canberra replacement. No doubt when the Ministry of Defence decide the time is ripe for a Canberra replacement, then the TSR2 will come in. It has comprehensive radar equipment, and is able to use short and comparatively primitive runways. Its main operational task will be to support the Army in the field, and to attack tactical targets in support of our Armed Forces, both in conventional and in nuclear war. I should like to make it clear that it is quite distinct from any naval aircraft. The naval specification just will not do for a Royal Air Force specification in this particular rôle.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, my point was this: might not the Royal Air Force specification have done for the Navy?
EARL BATHURST: No; I do not think it can, because my noble friend the First Lord will want all sorts of specialist naval needs to be met—he would want catapulting and all sorts of very difficult features, as I am certain the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and the noble Lord, Lord Wilmot of Selmeston, well know.
I can now combine several of the questions together. My noble friend Lord Swinton, the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Harding of Petherton, and the
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noble and gallant Lord, Lord Fraser of North Cape, all mentioned Fylingdales. Your Lordships will forgive me if I stay very closely to the words I have been given. First, I should like to say that there is no conceivable way in which the station can confuse a ballistic missile with a flock of starlings. Objects which do not have a speed and altitude comparable with that of a missile are automatically rejected by the station. Secondly, objects which seem at first to possess some of the characteristics of a missile are automatically scrutinised and their points of impact predicted. All this calculation is done by an electronic computer, which will be installed in duplicate to obtain the necessary degree of reliability. There will be no question of confronting a hapless radar operator with a dilemma. I think that should go some way towards allaying the fears of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Fraser of North Cape.
LORD FRASER OF NORTH CAPE: My Lords, I am not quite certain how the information goes out to all these stations in America in four minutes. Presumably all the bombers would have to have their engines running and their nuclear bombs strung under them for, it might be, months. Is that the case?
EARL BATHURST: My Lords. I assure the noble and gallant Lord that there are ways and means in which they can do these remarkable things—it really is so. The station will give us from four to fifteen minutes' warning. I can assure the noble and gallant Lord that the aeroplanes can get into the air within four minutes, as indeed the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, was saying in the course of his speech.
LORD FRASER OF NORTH CAPE: I am afraid the noble Earl has not convinced me in the slightest degree. How does the information get from this station in four minutes to all the other stations, and to America? What is more, it makes the assumption that Russia can at one fell swoop destroy every air station and every ballistic missile in this country, and in America. One hydrogen bomb over London is quite sufficient prospect to deter me from nuclear war, and I am sure it is much the same with Moscow. It seems to me that the assumption is made on a very wide scale, and I do not think it is possible.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I know that the noble and gallant Lord must be aware of the security difficulty one is up against. But perhaps he would take it from me that in those four minutes it is possible to get the aeroplanes off the ground from one station, and that can be done from many other stations as well, as my noble friend said in his speech. By the time the missile has dropped on London, or anywhere else, the V-bomber force or a very large proportion of it is already on its way. It is a battle of the deterrent. Will an opposing Power dare then to send a missile? I doubt it. We should expect that it will not; that is the principle of maintaining the deterrent by this station at Fylingdales.
LORD FRASER OF NORTH CAPE: My Lords, there is just one thing I still do not understand. We have the deterrent without this station in Yorkshire. But I do not think it would be possible to blow up every single air station all over the world in one fell swoop.
EARL BATHURST: I agree I do not think it would be possible to do that all over the world.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, I am not putting anything which involves security. The noble Lord said that Fylingdales would give him four to fifteen minutes warning. Is that true of a missile—maybe a relatively short-range missile—which comes from a place a few hundred miles away, and is a low trajectory missile? Might that not entirely defeat the warning system? I think I made it clear in the Defence debate that I thought this station was of great value to the Americans as part of their general warning, system. For that reason I thought that although, perhaps, they ought to pay for it, we had to have the unpleasantness of having it here. I thought that was part of our co-operation. But I should like the noble Earl to answer about the low trajectory if he can, and if he knows the answer.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, to save interrupting the noble Earl again—he is most patient—may I add this? What he has said adds to the stupendous terror of this thing, because it underlines the fact that this Yorkshire station adds nothing to our defences, but may add to the effectiveness
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of the American strike-back. Therefore, it seems to me that it is an assumption that above everything else it adds to the peril of this island.
EARL BATHURST: I cannot pretend to be an expert in the higher realms of defence; but as I understand it, and as was said in the Defence debate, this is part of a system involving three such stations; and when those three stations are used together they should be able to detect any long-range, high-flying missile in their beams. That will give us the minimum warning of four minutes; and when we have that warning, which is the worst possible warning we could get, we shall have time to get our V-force airborne; and that is where our deterrent comes in. I must admit that I have not been able to find out about low-flying, long-range missiles; I cannot give any information about that.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: I think this is rather important. The V2s came over from not far away. There will be bases not far away. Even if the potential aggressor does not advance a very long way into Europe, there may be bases only a few hundred miles away. From those, as I understand it, it is to-day possible, or will very soon be possible, with the developments which are taking place; and no doubt we can do the same thing—to send a low-trajectory projectile, which, as I understand it, can carry quite as good a head as the high-trajectory projectile. It bears out our old experience with radar in the war, that we could not catch the "hedge-hopping" raider, which will not show up on the Fylingdales screen.
EARL BATHURST: I very much appreciate the point the noble Earl made; but I have not been able to find out any information about the low-level projectile type of weapon since the Defence debate. Whether there is such a weapon in existence one would very much doubt. Any sort of short-range weapon of the type known, such as one that could be lobbed; any kind of slow-flying aeroplane, or any traditional type of aeroplane flying over the North Pole, for instance, or sneaking down anywhere from the North—all these will be detected by this radar. The noble Lord's particular question, I have no doubt, will be looked at with much interest; but I cannot myself give the answer.

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Now to move to the question of equipment costs, in which the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, and the noble Lords, Lord Shackleton and Lord Wilmot of Selmeston, were so interested. First, we are, of course, discussing the Air Estimates, and the development costs of aircraft do not fall within those Air Estimates. Secondly, these particular guided-weapon costs are shortly to be discussed by the Public Accounts Committee. Perhaps also I may just remind your Lordships, as my right honourable friend the Minister of Aviation said recently in another place, that it is bound to be a difficult matter to assess the exact cost—as indeed the noble Earl well knows and has admitted—of venturing into entirely new fields. As to cost-plus contracts, I can assure my noble friends that cost-plus contracts are the exception, though they have to be used for research contracts.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: Is that cost plus a percentage or cost plus a fee?
EARL BATHURST: I will let the noble Earl know about that in writing later. I use the term the standard "cost-plus" contract one hears about. We certainly place contracts at a fixed price whenever we can, especially for transport planes, about which we have heard so much.
That brings me to transport aircraft and to the strategic freighter, the Britannic, which the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Harding of Petherton, the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, and the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, mentioned. A great deal of work has been done on this aircraft since the decision to order the aircraft was announced by my right honourable friend the Minister of Aviation last year. A great deal of design work had to be done before we could decide in detail on the performance standards of this aircraft. In other words, we had to make sure that it would do the sort of job the noble and gallant Field Marshal and his friends require it to do. This process was completed last August, and since then discussions have been proceeding upon the detailed specification; but throughout this time design and development work has been going ahead steadily. I should add that it is in 1964 or 1965, somewhere in the mid-'sixties, that the delivery of the first production model is expected.
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The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Harding of Petherton, and the noble Lords, Lord Shackleton and Lord Wilmot of Selmeston, also asked about helicopters. The Sycamores and Whirlwinds which we now have are being substantially reinforced by the Belvedere, which has just come off the production line; and we shall soon find these deployed in the Arabian Peninsula and the Far East, which were referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, and the noble and gallant Field Marshal. We have just placed an order, too, for 50 gas-turbine Whirlwinds, the bulk of which will be used for extending the tactical air-lift available for the Army. The turbine-engined Whirlwinds will come in next year. Finally, we decided to acquire a larger helicopter, the Wessex, which the noble and gallant Field Marshal mentioned. This is a little further off than the Whirlwind, but will represent a considerable increase in lifting capacity. Nevertheless, even though the Whirlwind is a relatively small aircraft, its lift is remarkable, as I expect any of your Lordships who have seen the demonstrations on Battle of Britain Sunday could substantiate.
With regard to the question of the Hastings and Beverley, about which the noble and gallant Field Marshal asked specifically, the Beverley will of course be supplemented ultimately by the Argosy—or, rather, by the military version of it, the Armstrong Whitworth 660. That will do practically everything the Beverley will, and faster and higher; but of course, because it is smaller, it cannot possibly carry quite the same load. On the other hand, the Beverley will still be available; and that, I understand, can carry nearly all the equipment which the noble and gallant Field Marshal and his friends envisaged carrying in aeroplanes. Perhaps I should mention that one particular weapon, the Malkara has to be taken to pieces before the A.W.660 can carry it. I should point out to noble Lords that both the Hastings and Britannia can, in fact, carry jeeps and trailers—it is a tight fit, but it can be done—while the 660 and the Britannic will actually be able to have them driven on and off. It may be of interest that the big American D.C.6, which is one of their standard aeroplanes, can take up to six hours to load. When the 660 comes into operation a similar load will be put

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on board in twenty minutes, and at the same time unloading from the other end could be carried on. That is the sort of advance which is going on in Transport Command.
I think it is quite true that in attempting to get a V-force of the present size there have had to be sacrifices. I do not suppose it is possible ever to have everything one wants. But from the shape and the size of the aircraft provision in this year's Defence Estimates we shall have a very much larger potential in the transport field. I always think about passenger-miles when I am waiting to catch a bus, and particularly so in the last two days. But if your Lordships like to know about passenger-miles I can say that Transport Command will now have 150 million passenger nautical miles per month, which is very much more than it had two years ago.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: Would the noble Lord feel free to say which of those aircraft will be capable of carrying operational tanks in operational form?
EARL BATHURST: I am informed that all three of the loading aircraft that I have mentioned—the A.W.660, the Britannic, and of course the Beverley—can certainly carry the Saracen and the Saladin. I doubt whether they can carry anything heavier. I do not know indeed whether there is anything heavier. But they certainly will carry this type of weapon.
LORD HARDING OF PETHERTON: If the noble Earl will permit me, of course the Saracen and the Saladin are not tanks. I do not think there is any aircraft which carries a tank as such; nor, I imagine, is one contemplated. Nor would I suggest that the effort should be put into one. But I should like, if I may, to revert for a moment to the question of the Argosy. Is the noble Earl satisfied that the Argosy can, in fact, carry everything, except the Malkara, which the Army would need for the type of exercise which was planned in "Exercise Starlight"?
EARL BATHURST: So far as I know it can carry, and was specially designed at the Army's request to carry, such loads. Whether or not bigger loads may come along later is always the trouble.
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The noble and gallant Field Marshal's friends prepared something better five years ago; and this aircraft had to be invented. I assure your Lordships that it is a tremendous task to modify, even in the slightest degree, an aircraft of proven design in order to satisfy the specialist needs of the Army.
LORD HARDING OF PETHERTON: If the noble Earl will permit me to intervene once again, I think that adds weight to the point which I tried to make in my speech, of the need for a long-term development plan, and for the Army and Transport Command to work hand in hand, so that they develop together and adjustments do not have to be made to aircraft after they have been designed, or alterations made to equipment in order to fit it into the aircraft.
EARL BATHURST: I was just coming to that particular point. I should have done so as soon as I had dealt with a number of the points the noble and gallant Field Marshal has made. I appreciate his point, and I am quite certain that it will receive the attention of both my right honourable friend the Minister of Aviation, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Air. Moreover, my right honourable friend the Minister of Defence has this point especially in mind.
Now I come to the point of the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale. Who could have doubted that a noble Lord who can bring so much interest to a full-scale debate in your Lordships' House upon the Mumbles railway could also be such a great expert upon what is in fact called "E.C.M." or, in its other form, the Carcinotron? We have, of course, had a previous incursion into advanced electronics by the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, earlier to-day. It may interest noble Lords to know what this Carcinotron does and why it is so called. Apparently, it is a valve which has a backward wave. The enterprising Frenchman who invented this valve looked in his Greek dictionary and found that there was a shellfish in the Isles of Greece called a "Karkinos" which in fact moved backwards; hence he produced the name for his invention.
I shall have to keep closely to the advice I have been given on this invention, but, of course, all noble Lords can

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consult the Press cutting of March 15. The noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, has referred to radar jamming and to devices based on a technical development known as the Carcinotron. This is a field in which, above nearly all others, the requirements of security place very strict limits upon what can be said in a public debate. It is also a field in which the silent battle between the offence and the defence is at its most intense. I can assure your Lordships that it is very much like a game of poker—you let so much of your hand be seen to encourage the other man, and vice versa; but you do not let go your best card. There is, however, no secret about the way in which the Carcinotron works.
As we have heard, it is a French invention which was fully described in technical journals over six years ago, and its future use in radio warfare was mentioned at that time. Its application to the devices carried by the V-force has been something on which we have been working for many years. I should like to point out that, as the noble and gallant Earl has said, we invented radar, and there is no reason to suppose that we are this day behind anybody in radar. The ability to jam the enemy's radar defences successfully can make an enormous difference to the vulnerability of the attacking force, and I believe that I am right in saying that we are second to none in the tactical application of these electronic devices, both to our offensive forces and to our radar defences. I regret that the requirements of security prevent me from particularising, but I should like to assure my noble friend that an intensive and continuous effort is being made in this field, some of it in association with our allies, to whose contribution I should like to pay tribute. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale and the noble Earl will understand what I mean. I would suggest that they take certain copies of Aeroplane and Flight, combined with certain boys' books which are available, and I think that they will see something about how all this works, and how guided missiles and so forth will work in such conditions.
Here I should like to pay a general tribute to our allies, both in N.A.T.O. and of course in the United States, in all fields of work affecting aircraft. We have received a tremendous amount of help from them. Equally, though, we
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have given a tremendous amount of help to them. I conclude by saying that there should be no underestimating of the technical strength which is given by the Royal Air Force to the country in having the V-bomber force.
My Lords, we have had a long and interesting debate in your Lordships' House, and experts on both sides have taken part. I assure your Lordships that all that has been said will be most carefully looked into, especially with regard to transport aircraft which the noble and gallant Field Marshal and many other noble Lords have mentioned. I should like to end with the assurance that the mobile reserve is fully mobile in the necessary brigade group strength. There is no doubt, too, that if an emergency occurred much more than a brigade group could be carried by using more aircraft, and using them at a higher intensity. But, whatever else may be said about our transport capabilities, by the end of this year they will be much greater than they were at the beginning of last year.
6.8 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I should like to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, and particularly the noble Earl, far the most agreeable and competent way in which he has replied to a debate which nearly started up all over again through the medium of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Fraser of North Cape. I do not think there is time at this stage to restate the argument for or against the deterrent; but I am with the Minister in believing that Fylingdales plays its part in the deterrent. I quite agree that it has never been suggested that it provides defence in the sense in which my noble friend Lord Wilmot of Selmeston still hopes to find it.
The end of this debate leaves me with a feeling that, although we have gone fairly far into a number of important matters, we still have not got very satisfactory answers on some of them. I do not blame the noble Earl for that. There is no doubt that the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Harding of Petherton, has revealed, in a more effective form than I could have done, the great military weakness in terms of aircraft on the transport side; and the fact that the Britannic is now unlikely to appear until

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1965—we had a statement last year that it would enter service in 1964, but we know the way that these things go back, and for all we know it may eventually be 1966 or 1967—raises in a most acute form the point to which the noble Earl did not reply: whether we ought not to consider now trying to get suitable aircraft from America. I hope that that will be borne in mind.
As to the other great gap, the noble Lord, the First Lord of the Admiralty, did not accept that suggestion, for he talked of bombers perhaps going on, with some form of airborne rocket, after 1965. From what I have heard, I believe that there is no prospect of either a suitable bomber for carrying or of the weapon itself being available until long after 1965; and it is the missile gap between 1965 and 1970 which still presents us with a dangerous situation. But, apart from that, no doubt we shall have further—
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord there? My noble friend asked me to say, if that point was brought up, that the matter is under most urgent and intense discussion at this particular time—the gap, or possible gap, that there may or may not be towards the middle 'sixties. The noble Lord raised one other point with which I regret I forgot to deal. The aeroplane that is named after his famous father—the Shackleton—is reckoned to have a life of at least a further ten years; and we believe that it is as good, in almost every way, as the Canadian counterpart of the Britannia; and that the Shackleton can carry all the antisubmarine gadgetry and so forth that can reasonably be foreseen within the next ten years.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I am grateful to hear that, for it will take
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every bit of ten years, at the present rate, to get a replacement. That is a clear indication that we must have the order placed now. I am grateful to the noble Earl for his frank admission. We now have a clear statement of the seriousness of our defence position after 1965. On the noble Earl's statement that urgent discussions are going on—all I will say is that I should jolly well hope they are. And I hope that Her Majesty's Government will be able to face this. I do not pretend to be able to give the answer, but I believe that we are now in a difficult position and that, clearly, some urgent decisions will have to be taken this year. I am grateful for the opportunity to say that little more, and I will not detain the House further beyond again thanking the Government spokesmen and all noble Lords for their contributions. I therefore ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

SOUTHEND-ON-SEA CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
  ANGLO-EGYPTIAN RESETTLEMENT BOARD
  ANGLO-EGYPTIAN RESETTLEMENT BOARD