Sitting of 5 April 1960

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS
LANCASHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT ETC.) BILL (By Order)
Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tuesday next.

CIVIL CONTINGENCIES FUND, 1958–59
Accounts ordered,
"of the Civil Contingencies Fund, 1958-59, showing (1) the Receipts and Payments in connection with the Fund in the year ended the 31st day of March, 1959, and (2) the Distribution of the Capital of the Fund at the commencement and close of the year; with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon ".—[Sir E. Boyle.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SOUTHERN CAMEROONS

    Public Services
    Mr. Tilneyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what are his plans in the Southern Cameroons for replacing public services previously provided by the Federation of Nigeria.
    The Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. C. J. M. Alport): I have been asked to reply.
    The Nigerian Federal Government have generously agreed to loan staff to the Southern Cameroons Government against reimbursement to enable these services to be maintained after the 1st October until the future of the territory has been settled.

  DOMINICA

    Education
    Mr. Marquandasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when it is intended to make primary education in Dominica compulsory.
    Mr. Alport: The Dominica Government have decided to introduce compulsory education in given areas as soon as adequate school accommodation is available in those areas, and they expect to make a start during 1960 in a number of areas. The post of school attendance officer has been created in the 1960 Estimates for this purpose.
    Mr. Marquand: On a point of order. In the Order Book which was published yesterday giving a list of Questions to be asked today, there appeared Question No. 3 in my name about elections in Dominica, but today that Question does not appear on the Order Paper. I have been given no notice of any change or of any irregularity about the Question.
    Mr. Speaker: I am afraid that I can only apologise to the right hon. Gentleman and look into the matter, because I have no knowledge of it at the moment.
    Mr. Callaghan: If, Mr. Speaker, it is found before half-past three that a mistake has been made, could my right hon. Friend have an Answer to that Question?
    Mr. Speaker: The explanation is, I understand, that it was the right hon. Gentleman's third Question. That would explain the matter.
    Mr. Marquand: I thought, Mr. Speaker, that I could put down a third Question for non-oral Answer without extinguishing my right to have two Oral Answers.
    Mr. Speaker: It sounds as though—I do not know—that what the right hon. Gentleman put down intending to be for non-Oral Answer, or vice versa, has got otherwise treated because the Question here not for Oral Answer already appears as No. 5 on page 2952 of the Order Paper. There are two Questions down there in the name of the right hon. Gentleman, Nos. 4 and 5.
    Mr. Callaghan: With respect, Mr. Speaker, who decides which of the three Questions is to be withdrawn?
    Mr. Speaker: It is the hon. Member who decides, because it is the third one in, I suppose, which is of a starred character.
    Mr. Marquand: Would it not save the time of the House, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of State would answer the Question which did appear?
    Mr. Speaker: I am sorry but that could not conceivably be right. I will try to find out what was the exact sequence of events, but it is no good trying to do that now.

  MALTA

    Dockyard
    Mr. Awberyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what amount of commercial repair work has been done in the shipyards of Malta during the twelve months that they have been in the hands of a private company; what proportion of the workers have been engaged on naval craft and commercial ships, respectively; and what are the prospects for the immediate future.
    Mr. Alport: I am informed that one hundred commercial ships have entered Malta docks for repairs since Bailey (Malta) Limited took over; that from 10 per cent. to 40 per cent. of the workers engaged on ship repairs are employed on commercial ships at any one time and the rest on naval work; and that prospects of commercial work in the immediate future are good.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the greatest fear in the minds of the workers in the dockyard at the moment is that they will become redundant? Could he give an assurance that as the naval dockyard closes down these men will be employed by the commercial undertaking taking over from our Government?
    Mr. Alport: My right hon. Friend is fully aware of the grave concern which there is among the workers in Malta about the continuance of this form of employment. The continuance of that employment largely depends on the success of Bailey (Malta) Ltd. obtaining the commercial work which is required. I think the House will agree that the 100 ships which have entered Malta docks for repairs gives good promise for the future.

  COLONIAL TERRITORIES

    Colonial Research Council
    Mr. Tilneyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the subcommittees that made suggestions to the Colonial Research Council for the expenditure of colonial development and welfare fund money have also been dissolved.
    Mr. Alport: No, Sir. I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to his Question of the 29th March.
    Mr. Tilney: Will local research continue in, say, Nigeria or Sierra Leone? Will the work of the Institute of Try-panosomiasis continue at Vom, and will money be provided for that?
    Mr. Alport: I assume that my hon. Friend is referring to the situation which will arise after independence. That will be a matter for the Government of independent Nigeria, but the importance of the work of these institutions, I am certain, is as well recognised by the Government of Nigeria as it is by the United Kingdom Government.
    Mr. G. M. Thomson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that with the coming of independence to Nigeria there is some real anxiety that some of the excellent research work done under the Colonial Research Council may receive a setback? Is he aware that that affects him in his official capacity as well as from the Colonial Office point of view? Will he look into this matter most carefully?
    Mr. Alport: I have looked into it in the past. I can assure the hon. Member that we make certain that this most important research work into tropical diseases shall continue, but it is a matter which must be in the hands of an independent Nigerian Government when that Government comes into office.

    Political Asylum
    Mr. Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will give an assurance that the same principles with regard to political asylum apply to all Colonies and British protectorates as are applied in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Alport: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. I am sure that any Colonial

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    Governments which may have to consider such cases will be guided by the same humanitarian considerations which guide Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Fletcher: Will the Minister bear in mind the Home Secretary's rather guarded reply yesterday, which was by no means satisfactory? Cannot we have an assurance that if any political refugees from South Africa seek asylum in any Protectorate for which Her Majesty's Government are ultimately responsible, the same high traditions of political asylum will be applied in any British Protectorate as are applied in the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Alport: In answering that Question yesterday my right hon. Friend said —I think on more than one occasion— what is absolutely right, which is that in respect of the High Commission Territories this is an extremely difficult and complicated problem. In those circumstances, my noble Friend is at present making necessary inquiries, and I myself have promised, in answer to a Private Notice Question, to make a statement as soon as possible.
    Mr. Fletcher: Will the Minister bear in mind that this is really not a complicated question at all, and that principles of political asylum transcend all questions of immigration into British Protectorates?
    Mr. Alport: I am aware, as I am sure the House is, of the importance that we attach to the tradition of political asylum that we have operated in this country over a very long period of time. At the same time, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that this is an extremely complicated question, in which special considerations arise.
    Mr. Callaghan: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that what dissatisfies us is his emphasis on the complications of the matter rather than on a desire to seek a solution? Can I ask him whether the investigation that is going on at present is designed to remove the complications in order to ensure that the right of political asylum in these territories will be the same as it is here and in other parts of the Commonwealth?
    Mr. Alport: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it is our aim to solve,
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    to the best of our ability, some of the problems created by the present circumstances, but I would ask the hon. Gentleman, who, I think, is aware of our general views as a result of previous Answers, not to press further until I have made a statement, which I have promised to make as soon as I can.

  NORTHERN RHODESIA

    Copper Belt Technical Foundation
    Mr. Albuasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what financial support he poposes to provide for the Technical Foundation on the Copper Belt in Northern Rhodesia.
    Mr. Alport: My right hon. Friend has no proposals for providing financial assistance for the Technical Foundation.
    Mr. Albu: If this matter is again considered, as I understand it has already been considered, in view of the severe disabilities under which Africans suffer in the Rhodesias in learning skilled trades and getting technical education, will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that no assistance will be given to the development of this foundation unless it takes students of all races?
    Mr. Alport: The Colonial Secretary is well aware of the aim of continuing African advancement in technical trades and professions. At a meeting of the board of governors on 23rd November last, the chairman proposed that better detailed consideration should be given to the proposal to admit Africans and that a comprehensive survey should be undertaken of the admissions for technical education, the nature of the tuition needed and the capacity of the industry to absorb trained persons. As the hon. Member knows, this foundation is a private one and, from a financial point of view, the Government would be interested in giving any financial assistance only if it were a multi-racial foundation.
    Mr. Osborne: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a month ago I was on the Copper Belt and I found a great deal of dissatisfaction among the black workers that they were not entitled to go to the Copper Belt Foundation? Is he aware that the copper companies offered to build a similar foundation for the

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    black workers? Why was that refused and by whom? Will he see that there is another foundation established for the black workers?
    Mr. Alport: If my hon. Friend wishes to press me on that matter he should put down another Question. My right hon. Friend is well aware of the importance of extending the technical training which is available to Africans in Northern Rhodesia, but this foundation is a private foundation established by the copper mining companies for their own purposes in their own industry.

    Lake Bangweulu Islands (Deaths)
    Mr. Chatawayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies how many people died in the months of January and February, this year, on the islands of Chisi and Chilubi on Lake Bangweulu in Northern Rhodesia; and what was the nature of the epidemic.
    Mr. Alport: As the hon. Member will be aware, health is a Federal subject. I understand that there has been no epidemic on either of these islands.

    Railways (Racial Discrimination)
    Mr. Prenticeasked the Secretary of State lot the Colonies what steps have been taken by the Government of Northern Rhodesia to abolish racial discrimination in the assignment of jobs on the railways; and for what reasons negotiations on this issue have been delayed.
    Mr. Alport: Railways in Northern Rhodesia come within the responsibility of the Federal Government, but the Territorial Government is responsible for industrial relations. The Northern Rhodesia Government, jointly with the Southern Rhodesia Government, have recently made certain proposals to the National Industrial Council which regulates these matters. These are to be considered by the Council early in May.
    Mr. Prentice: While welcoming what the hon. Gentleman has just told the House, may I ask him whether the Government are doing everything in their power towards abolishing racial discrimination? Is there some contrast in this matter between the attitude of the Northern Rhodesia Government and the
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    more lukewarm interest of the Federal Government? If so, will the Government use their influence with the Federal Government to try to get the matter speeded up?
    Mr. Alport: I am not aware of any difference of outlook on the part of the two Governments on this matter. I can only say that any development that may take place that will ensure greater opportunities for Africans to engage in semi-skilled employment in Northern Rhodesia is one which, I know, my right hon. Friend would greatly welcome.

  KENYA

    African Members
    Mr. P. Williamsasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement about the entry of African-elected members into the Government of Kenya.
    Mr. Alport: I am very glad to say that it has been agreed with the African Constituency Elected Members that four of their number will accept office in a Caretaker Government to be formed for the period remaining until the Lancaster House Constitution comes into operation. Three will be Ministers and one an Assistant Minister. All the African Constituency Elected Members under-took to support the African Ministers, who have now joined the Caretaker Government.
    Mr. Williams: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is a most welcome development? Would he agree that there is, however, a degree of criticism of African Ministers who have taken office in that Government and then continued to criticise its policy? There must be collective Government responsibility in this matter. Will he go further and give an assurance that the present development, the present stage of constitutional advance, will be sufficiently long for African and other Ministers to acclimatise themselves to new and additional responsibilities?
    Mr. Alport: I am sure the House will wish to express its satisfaction at this development, which follows the successful conclusion of the Lancaster House Conference. I should have thought that if

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    there were any irregularities or unorthodoxy about the work of Ministers that would be largely due to unfamiliarity with the difficult problems Ministers have to face in a Parliamentary democracy. I am quite certain that these four African elected Members will have very good opportunity with their colleagues of learning of the problems of responsibility in a Parliamentary democracy during the period of the Caretaker Government.

    African Civil Servants (Training)
    Mr. Callaghanasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies why such small progress has been made with training African civil servants for promotion to higher rank in Kenya; and what is being done to accelerate training schemes.
    Mr. Alport: The number of Africans in senior posts have increased by nearly 200 in the last four years. The recent Public Services Conference reviewed the problem throughout the African territories and the Kenya Government will have the results of this review to help them in extending their training plans. But the problem is basically an educational one and it is to be hoped that the extensive effort made to secure eight years of primary education for the great majority of children will bear fruit in the larger numbers going on to take secondary and higher education, and thus being equipped for the higher posts.
    Mr. Callaghan: Is the Minister of State aware that there are Africans at the moment in the Service who, if given proper training in it, could qualify for higher posts? Could he ask the Secretary of State to call for a special report on this, because there is considerable dissatisfaction about the small numbers promoted at present?
    Mr. Alport: I think the hon. Member will agree that the increase has been a very substantial one during the last four years, but I shall certainly undertake what he asks and bring this to the attention of my right hon. Friend when he returns.
    Mr. W. R. Williams: Will my right hon. Friend consult the Chancellor of the Exchequer to see how far the British Civil Service can assist these people in the acceleration of training schemes where that is necessary?
    Mr. Alport: I shall call the attention of my right hon. Friend to that suggestion, but I think we should remember that the British Overseas Civil Service has been helping on these lines for a great many years past.

    Mau Mau Activities
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies to what extent Mau Mau activities have been revived in Kenya; to what causes he attributes this recrudescence; and what counter-measures are being taken.
    Mr. Alport: Although there has been no evidence of increase in Mau Mau activities, there have been some signs of increasing lawlessness, connected with a revival of the Kenyatta cult. The Governor has adequate legal powers to deal with any such threats to public order, and will not hesitate to take effective and speedy action should this prove necessary.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Is my right hon. Friend aware of certain violent attacks on Her Majesty's subjects, including the daughter of a constituent of mine? Does he think that unemployment is perhaps one of the causes of this fresh outbreak of violence? Are the Government doing everything possible to help the Kenya Ministers to provide jobs for the workless?
    Mr. Alport: I am not aware that this lawlessness is attributable to the cause which my hon. Friend suggests, but it is clear that from the point of view of Asians, Europeans and Africans, particularly the loyal Africans, the maintenance of law and order in the territory is of the very greatest importance. As I have said, we believe that the Governor has adequate legal powers to ensure their security if the necessity arises.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Does not the Minister agree that there is no purpose whatever in raking over the embers of the past and that it is much more fruitful to concentrate on the building up of the new democratic future of Kenya and releasing all the political detainees?
    Mr. Alport: That is a different question, but I agree with the hon. Member that we hope that the result of the Lancaster House Conference will be the beginning of a new era of peace and progress for Kenya.

    Constitutional Conference (Zanzibar)
    Mr. F. M. Bennettasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is satisfied that the obligations of Her Majesty's Government to Zanzibar under the Treaty of 1895 are in no way affected by anything agreed at the Kenya Constitutional Conference between himself and the participating representatives from Kenya; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Alport: Yes, Sir. I would refer my hon. Friend to paragraph 24 of the Report of the Kenya Constitutional Conference—Command 960. Questions relating to the Kenya Protectorate fell outside the scope of the Conference, and Her Majesty's Government will continue to discharge their responsibilities for the Protectorate under the Agreement of 1895.
    Mr. Bennett: While grateful to my right hon. Friend for that assurance, may I ask whether he does not agree that recent threats of unilateral abrogation in certain quarters are particularly to be deplored, not only in themselves but because they tend to increase insecurity and instability in an area where the opposite of those is very important at present?
    Mr. Alport: I fully agree that it is most important that there should be security and tranquillity in Kenya in the future but, as I have said, Her Majesty's Government will continue to discharge the responsibilities that we have to the Government of His Highness the Sultan under the Protectorate Agreement of 1895.

    Detainees
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if, in the light of the new political situation in Kenya, he will reconsider the recommendations of the Fairn Report, so as to allow the remaining detainees an opportunity to prove their innocence and to permit them to be represented when their cases are reviewed.
    Mr. Alport: The new situation, although most welcome, has not altered the need for the continued control over those who are attached to Mau Mau or the considerations which led to the
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    recommendations of Mr. Fairn and his colleagues. As my right hon. Friend told the hon. Member on 16th February, these included recommendations that a quasijudicial review was preferable to formal judicial process, and that neither the Kenya Government nor the detainees should have legal representation. These recommendations are still valid.
    Mr. Swingler: Now that Africans have joined the Kenya Government, would it not be possible to take steps to end the system of arbitrary detention? Would it not be possible to give those detainees against whom charges cannot be proved in the courts the judicial right to come forward in order to prove to the Review Commission their innocence, the fact that they have not been connected with Mau Mau?
    Mr. Alport: I do not think that the problem has changed since the recommendations of Mr. Fairn and his colleagues were made. The hon. Gentleman and the House will recognise that the difficulties that arise concerning the intimidation of witnesses are perhaps no less great at present than they were when these recommendations were made.
    Mr. P. Williams: Will my hon. Friend give an assurance to the House that, whatever else may be done, nothing will be done to endanger the lives or property of people who are known as loyal Africans?
    Mr. Alport: As I said in answer to an earlier Question, the position of those who were of assistance to the Government during the emergency is extremely important. When considering the cases of each of the individuals who are detained, or indeed restricted, their attitude to rehabilitation and the security situation are borne in mind.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Speaking of particular detainees, what is now the reason for the continued detention of Jomo Kenyatta? Is he not a very old and sick man? Has he not long ago served the sentence which was inflicted upon him by a court? Is there any reasonable explanation for keeping this man in his present situation?
    Mr. Alport: If the hon. Gentleman wishes to have an Answer to that Question, he should table it.

  BRITISH HONDURAS

    Development (Investment)
    Mr. C. Royleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what encouragement is being given to private investors, by Her Majesty's Government, to assist the development of British Honduras.
    Mr. Alport: Much of the substantial aid given by Her Majesty's Government to British Honduras will continue to be spent on development intended to provide increased attractions to private investment. In addition, certain specific incentives have already been introduced and others are now being devised, for the same purpose.
    Mr. Royle: In view of a long succession of inquiries and reports from all kinds of sources into the economic situation in British Honduras—all those reports saying that both private and public investment is very necessary—will the Government press on with this matter, because this is a very neglected Colony?
    Mr. Alport: We realise the difficulties which this Colony faces, largely on account of the smallness of the population and the necessity for the economic expansion which we hope will take place, but my right hon. Friend believes that the existing incentives will help in introducing new investment into the Colony, and other incentives are at the moment under consideration.

    Immigration
    Mr. Chatawayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what plans are being considered by the Government of British Honduras for immigration into the country; and what approaches have been made to the World Refugee Year authorities with regard to the immigration into British Honduras of refugees from Hong Kong and other territories.
    Mr. Alport: At the recent Conference in London it was agreed that the central feature of economic policy for British Honduras should be planned immigration aimed at the creation of an agricultural economy based on small-holdings and large scale enterprises. It was recognised that much thought would have to be given to such a plan; and that very careful investigation over a wide field would be necessary to determine the
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    probable character, scale and rate of progress which could be achieved. As the first step, the British Honduras Government are considering the form of land tenure which should be the pattern for such an economy.
    As regards the second part of the Question, the British Honduras Government agreed in principle last year to provide homes for carefully selected and agriculturally useful European refugees as part of their contribution towards the World Refugee Year. Since then approaches have been made both to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees and the Director of the Inter-Governmental Committee for European Migration.
    Mr. Chataway: As immigration has been recommended, both in the Downie Report and for years previously, does not my hon. Friend agree that one might hope that in the very near future refugee immigrants will be allowed into British Honduras, particularly from Hong Kong, where there is a tremendous need for resettlement of refugees?
    Mr. Alport: In the interests of the future of British Honduras, as indeed in all cases of this sort, this type of permanent immigration has to be very carefully considered and planned, if it is to be successful. I can assure my hon. Friend, who I know is particularly interested in this subject, that the problem of whether it would be possible to find any home in these territories for those from Hong Kong will be considered by my right hon. Friend.

  BERMUDA

    Ferry Point Bridge
    Mr. F. M. Bennettasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he expects Ferry Point Bridge, Bermuda, to be completed by the United States Government in accordance with their obligations.
    Mr. Alport: The United States Government have informed Her Majesty's Government that, despite repeated efforts to have the necessary funds appropriated, Congressional consent has not yet been secured. Her Majesty's Government will, however, continue to press

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    for this to be obtained and for the bridge to be built as soon as possible.
    Mr. Bennett: While grateful for what the Minister has said to indicate his interest, may I ask him to recall that the American Government made a solemn promise sixteen years ago that this bridge to provide a roadway for the inhabitants of Bermuda would be built and that over four years ago I received an assurance from his colleague that the American Government would then see their way to fulfilling their obligations? Can he give me any indication how long they will go on welshing on a deliberate and calculated policy?
    Mr. Alport: I cannot accept my hon. Friend's strictures upon the American Administration. No doubt they have some of the problems which face all Governments in obtaining Supply in certain cases. I agree with him that this case has aroused concern, and I can assure him that the Government will do their best to press upon the United States Government the importance which we attach to this problem.

  WEST INDIES

    Citrus Fruit
    Mr. Leatherasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what representations he received from West Indian Governments regarding the recent further liberalisation of United States canned citrus imports into the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Russellasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what representations he has received from Governments and organisations of citrus growers in the West Indies about the further removal of restrictions on imports of United States canned citrus into the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Alport: My right hon. Friend has not received any representations from West Indian Governments or organisations on this matter.
    Mr. Leather: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it was only last week that the House authorised large sums of money to be paid to an international development authority and that it was my right hon. Friend the Leader of the
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    House who coined the phrase "trade not aid"? Does he not think it highly undesirable that at the same time as we are doing this we are deliberately taking action which we know will undermine the economy of an important industry in a Commonwealth Territory?
    Mr. Alport: We are not deliberately taking action which we know will undermine this industry. We are most anxious to foster the industry, because we realise its importance to the West Indies Federation. Any action which we have taken has been taken in accordance with international obligations which we thought it was necessary and proper to fulfil.
    Mr. Russell: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that no international obligation obliges us to surrender the preference which we already have? Is not this due only to relentless pressure by the United States Government, who appear to want to drive the West Indies production out of the market in order to export their own?
    Mr. Alport: I do not think that that is entirely borne out by the development which has taken place since. For instance, the quantity of dollar canned orange and grapefruit juice which was imported into this country between October and January totalled only £510 in value. At present, at any rate, I do not think that it will make a substantial difference to the normal trade between the West Indies and the United Kingdom, although I assure my hon. Friend that my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary will watch very carefully any longer-term effects this may have.
    Mr. Leather: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that this change will eliminate or very nearly eliminate the import into this country of canned lemon juice from the whole of the West Indies. Is he not aware that all the producers in those territories are gravely alarmed?
    Mr. Alport: I am aware that it may make a difference to the export of canned lemon juice, but only a very insubstantial amount has so far been forthcoming from the United States, and I can assure my hon. Friend that if there is any sign of any greater impact, my right hon. Friend will reconsider the position.
    Mr. Russellasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is aware that surplus citrus fruit is being buried in a trench at Chaguaramas, Trinidad, and is rotting on the ground in other parts of the island; what steps he proposes to take to find more markets for this crop; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Alport: Local newspapers report that grapefruit grown within the United States base at Chaguaramas has been buried because the Trinidad Government were not willing to permit the fruit to be processed by the Citrus Growers' Association or to be given to local charitable institutions. Other local reports state that because of the very heavy crop and the remoteness of some of the plantations, grapefruit is rotting in some areas. Trinidad citrus fruit can be freely imported into the United Kingdom. It is not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to interfere with the established marketing arrangements.
    Mr. Russell: While deploring the attitude of the Trinidad Government in not accepting this American offer, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he does not agree that it is wrong that we should not try to find more markets for surplus Trinidad food? Does he not agree that we should not leave their producers to be victims of American competition?
    Mr. Alport: We are extremely anxious to help in any way that we can, but the root cause of the present difficulty with Trinidad grapefruit is that—for the time being at any rate—there has been a substantial glut of supplies.

    Union of South Africa (Communication)
    Mr. C. Royleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has considered the communication received from the Federal Government of the West Indies in regard to action to be taken by Her Majesty's Government in connection with recent incidents in South Africa; and what reply has been sent.
    Mr. Alport: Yes, Sir. In reply to their communication, the Government of the Federation of the West Indies have been informed that, while it is not the usual practice within the Commonwealth for one Government to comment or protest to another about the internal
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    affairs of that Government, the United Kingdom High Commissioner in Cape Town is being asked to draw to the attention of the Union Government the feelings which recent events in South Africa have aroused in the West Indies.
    Mr. Royle: Whilst thanking the hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask if it is not a fact that a multi-racial Government like that of the West Indies Federation have set an example to Her Majesty's Government in protesting to South Africa in the present circumstances?
    Mr. Alport: I do not think that I could accept the point that the hon. Gentleman has made, but, of course, in these circumstances the Government of the West Indies have a perfect right to express what their views may be. The problem that arises in a case like this is one created by the long-standing conventions and understandings of the Commonwealth.

  BRITISH GUIANA

    Constitutional Conference
    Mr. Brockwayasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will state the conclusions reached by the Constitutional Conference on British Guiana.
    Mr. Fisherasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if the British Guiana Constitutional Conference has now been concluded; and if he will make a statement regarding the outcome.
    Mr. Wadeasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, if he will now make a statement on the outcome of the Constitutional Conference on British Guiana.
    Mr. Alport: The Conference came to an end on 31st March and a long Press communiqué issued next day gave all its main conclusions. Copies of this communiqué have been placed in the Library of the House. The full Report of the Conference will be published as a White Paper later this week.
    Mr. Brockway: Is it not a fact that agreement was not reached between the delegates from British Guiana and representatives of the Government, and are not these proposals being imposed by the Government upon British Guiana?

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    Is it not the case that there are two particular causes of dissatisfaction—first, that the Upper House is to be entirely nominated and, secondly, that the British Guiana Parliament is not to have control over the police? Why should not British Guiana have as advanced a constitution as other territories in the West Indies?
    Mr. Alport: I do not think that I can accept the hon. Member's version of the outcome of the Conference. It is quite possible that some of the expectations with which delegates came to this country were not fulfilled, but that is very often the case in negotiations of this sort. The Conference Report, which was signed by the leader of the delegation, stated that the constitutional changes that have been worked out to take effect in 1961 provided a workable pattern for the constitutional advance of British Guiana. I think that it would be wise for the House to have an opportunity of studying the White Paper when it is published, which will be in a day or two's time.
    Mr. Fisher: Is my hon. Friend aware that the advance; towards internal self-government in British Guiana will be generally welcomed, but will he inform the House whether there is any truth in the reports which I have seen of an implied commitment to grant complete independence to British Guiana by 1963? If so, will he reconsider this, because she is certainly not ready for complete independence yet—I have just returned from there—and may well not be ready for it in three years' time? Would not the quickest, surest and best way for her to achieve this be through joining the West Indies Federation?
    Mr. Alport: The point to which my hon. Friend refers is dealt with at some length in the Press communiqué. Perhaps it would be convenient to him if I sent him a copy so that he can study the exact terms in which the reference to independence was made. The question of British Guiana joining the West Indies Federation is a different topic.
    Mr. Wade: May I ask a specific point with regard to elections when a constitution is eventually put into effect? Whatever one's views may be about the imperfections of the electoral system in this country, is it not clear that, when applied to a Colonial Territory, it may
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    lead to serious anomalies, such as the holding of all the seats by one party? Has adequate consideration been given to this and are there adequate safeguards to ensure that the different points of view will be fairly represented?
    Mr. Alport: As I understand it, the object was to ensure that all points of view were properly represented in this, but I do not think that my right hon. Friend can give any assurance about the outcome of an election when it takes place. However, perhaps the hon. Gentleman will consider the White Paper, and the details contained therein, when it is published.

  RHODESIA AND NYASALAND

    Union of South Africa
    Mrs. Castleasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are taken to safeguard the interests of, and provide legal and financial help to, British-protected persons from the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland who go to the Union of South Africa to work and find themselves in difficulty under the pass laws and other legislation of that country.
    Mr. Alport: The Federal Government, through their High Commissioner's Office, are primarily responsible for safeguarding the interests of anyone from the Federation while in the Union of South Africa and for providing them with assistance where appropriate. Assistance is also available through the Nyasaland Labour Officer in Johannesburg.
    Mrs. Castle: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I have here a report from the Johannesburg Star giving details of a typical case of an African from the Federation coming to the Union to work, losing his pass, being refused another on the ground that he is a foreign native, being refused a chance to stay and work to earn his fare to go back, who has been jailed four times and has finally disappeared? Will not the hon. Gentleman make representations, both to the Federal authorities and to our own Nyasaland representatives, to ensure that full legal and financial help is given to those persons who get caught in the trap of the vicious South African pass laws?
    Mr. Alport: As regards the help which the Nyasaland Labour Officer can give to a particular individual, I should like to see the details of the case which the hon. Lady has. As I have said, under the Constitution the interests of these Africans are a matter for the Federal Government and I have no doubt that they are most anxious to carry out their responsibilities in relation to these men.

  WEST AFRICA

    Radioactivity
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what increases in radioactivity in the air and in rainfall, respectively, have been recorded in stations in West Africa since the last past of February.
    Mr. Alport: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer given to the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey) on 28th March.
    Mr. Allaun: Will the Minister give the figures? His previous Answer did not give them. In view of the heavy fall-out in Britain and Belgium, which are much further away from the Sahara tests, will he send an observer to the conference of African States now meeting to discuss this subject? Does no one know what happened in East Africa and India, because I understand that the wind was blowing in that direction?
    Mr. Alport: I think that the hon. Gentleman is particularly interested in the results affecting Nigeria. I remind him that the scientific committee concerned is responsible to the Nigerian Government, and it is for them to decide what details are to be disclosed, and when. I could not commit my right hon. Friend to send an observer to the conference, as the hon. Gentleman suggests. I will certainly consider whether any information is forthcoming about the effect on East Africa as opposed to West Africa.

  AFRICAN TERRITORIES

    Flying Doctor Service
    Dr. Summerskillasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what progress has been made in establishing a flying doctor service in the African
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    territories where there is a special need for an emergency medical service.
    Mr. Alport: Arrangements are being made for a survey party of the "Flying Doctor Service of Africa" organisation to visit Northern Nigeria, Kenya and Tanganyika to discuss with the Governments concerned the possibility of establishing flying doctor services in their territories.
    Dr. Summerskill: I thank the Minister for that Answer, but can he say whether they are co-operating with the Australian flying doctor service, which has proved so successful?
    Mr. Alport: I am afraid that I have no knowledge as to whether there is direct co-operation with the Australian authorities in this matter, but I am certain that it would be willingly forthcoming from the Australians if it were necessary. I think that I am right in saying that this proposal, which has a very romantic background, is, in fact, based on the experience they have already in Australia of operating a service of this sort.

  NYASALAND

    Mr. Nwahangi
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what restrictions apply to Mr. Nwahangi of the Kilipula Rice Growers' Union, and why; and what financial provision is being made for his family while he is under these restrictions.
    Mr. Alport: The Governor is being consulted and my right hon. Friend will write to the hon. Member when a reply is received.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Will the Minister bear in mind that there are no reasons for keeping under restraint a responsible co-operative official such as the gentleman named in the Question? Will he also obtain details of the financial provision being made for the family of the person detained?
    Mr. Alport: My right hon. Friend is in Nyasaland at present, and all matters connected with the emergency are being discussed with the Governor. I think that it would be best to await the outcome of his discussions.

    Dr. Banda
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will make a statement on his discussions with Dr. Hastings Kamuzu Banda; and what conditions have been attached to Dr. Banda's release from detention.
    Mr. Wyattasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will make a statement on the release of Dr. Banda and his talks with him.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. R. A. Butler): I have been asked to reply.
    As the House is aware, the Governor decided to release Dr. Banda on 1st April, and no conditions were attached to his release. The discussions are still in progress. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will wish to make a statement as soon as possible after his return.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Will the Home Secretary accept our warm congratulations on the action that has been taken, which is in marked contrast to the events occurring further south? Is he yet in a position to say when the Nyasaland Constitutional Conference will take place?
    Mr. Butler: No. Sir. The date will depend upon the discussions that are taking place between my right hon. Friend and Dr. Banda in Nyasaland at present. We must await the outcome of those discussions before we can give the House further information.
    Mr. Wyatt: Does this mean that the Government now recognise the futility of trying to force Nyasaland into a Federation that it does not want to be in? And does it mean that we are now to have representative Government in Nyasaland on the same sort of pattern as that in Kenya and the other territories to which we are giving independence?
    Mr. Butler: The latter part of the hon. Gentleman's Question must be answered in the light of the discussions that are taking place in the constitutional talks. In regard to the first part of his supplementary question, I have nothing to add to the speeches and statements made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister during his tour of Africa.
    Mr. Callaghan: Are there to be constitutional talks in London? Is this why Dr. Banda is coming here?
    Mr. Butler: It depends on the outcome of the discussions at present taking place in Nyasaland. I do not exclude the possibility of discussions in London, but we must decide about that when we see the results of the first discussions.
    Mr. Grimond: Whilst welcoming Dr. Banda's release, may I ask if it is the intention now to release some of the other detainees?
    Mr. Butler: The remaining detainees, who are not so very many, must be released according to the decision of the Governor in relation to his assessment of the position of law and order in Nyasaland. They will follow normally in relation to the Governor's own decision in regard to law and order?
    Mr. Callaghan: Is there to be no expression of regret by the Government that their assessment of the situation has been so wrong over the last thirteen months? Is not the Home Secretary aware that it was prophesied from the benches opposite, and by so-called responsible Ministers, that in the event of Dr. Banda's release there would be widespread unrest and violence? As the Government have been so wrong about this, are we not to know what has changed their assessment of the situation?
    Mr. Butler: The Government have throughout had to handle a delicate situation, and the fact that there has been no trouble is at once a tribute to the wisdom of the Government and, at the same time, a tribute to the sense of Dr. Banda in his published broadcast appealing that there should be no violence and appealing to his own people to give him a chance to lead them through peace and by having talks.

  BRITISH HONDURAS AND BRITISH GUIANA

    United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America
    Mr. Fisherasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if British Honduras and British Guiana were represented at the meeting of the United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America at Santiago on 28th and 29th March.
    Mr. Alport: No, Sir. British Guiana was elected an associate member at this meeting but was unable to attend on this occasion.
    Mr. Fisher: As the West Indian Federation was itself represented on this occasion, would it not be appropriate for the mainland territory of British Honduras, not a member of the Federation, also to apply for associate membership of this Commission?
    Mr. Alport: That is a matter for the Government of British Honduras. I understand that it is now being considered.

  SEYCHELLES

    Director of Agriculture (Appointment)
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will appoint a Seychellois to the vacant post of Director of Agriculture in the Seychelles; and whether, in view of the concern about this matter in the Colony, he will ensure that, where suitable candidates are forthcoming, priority in Seychelles appointments will always be given to inhabitants of the Colony.
    Mr. Alport: A local candidate, Mauritian by birth but long resident in Seychelles, has already been appointed Director of Agriculture in Seychelles. There, as elsewhere in the Colonial Territories, it is always the practice to fill vacant posts with local candidates, if suitable local candidates are available.

    LEGAL AID SCHEME
    Mr. W. Wellsasked the Attorney-General whether he will consider incorporating in the Legal Aid Scheme provision for payment of the taxed costs, in whole or in part, if the court so orders, of parties who, not themselves having a civil aid certificate, have successfully contested proceeding against assisted persons.
    Captain Litchfieldasked the Attorney-General if he is aware of the continuing injustice of the present arrangement as to costs under the Legal Aid Scheme, whereby defendants can be compelled to pay the costs of plaintiffs who have been assisted under the scheme, but are unable to recover any costs from
    188
    such plaintiffs in cases where judgment is given against such plaintiffs; and if he will introduce legislation to correct this anomaly.
    The Solicitor-General (Sir Jocelyn Simon): The problem of recovering costs from an impecunious litigant, whether or not he is an assisted person, is inherent in our legal system. The Legal Aid and Advice Act already provides for the payment by the assisted litigant of the costs of a successful opponent up to the amount which the court considers it is reasonable for him to pay. There are serious objections to all the alternatives so far suggested, and I cannot, therefore, hold out any hope of legislation amending the Legal Aid Scheme in this respect.
    Mr. Wells: Will the Attorney-General seriously consider the possibility of providing assistance from public funds in certain of these cases, particularly in view of the embarrassment which the absence of such arrangements frequently occasions to persons in the position of trustees?
    The Solicitor-General: No. Sir. We discussed the matter on the Second Reading of the Legal Aid Bill, and I then ventured to suggest some of the serious objections to that proposal. Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman will be good enough to refer to what I said on that occasion.
    Captain Litchfield: Is not my hon. and learned Friend aware that very heavy losses are incurred by innocent persons under the present system? Does he not agree that this is a case of "Heads I win, tails you lose", for assisted persons, and does he really think it acceptable that this anomaly should be allowed to continue?
    The Solicitor-General: The safeguard is in the screening of the case initially by the legal aid district and area committees.
    Mr. Fletcherasked the Attorney-General when the operation of the Legal Aid and Advice Act will be extended to matrimonial proceedings in magistrates' courts.
    The Solicitor-General: During the present financial year.

    MAGISTRATES (OCCUPATIONS)
    Mr. Boydenasked the Attorney-General if, in view of the difficulty of obtaining complete information about the occupations of magistrates appointed in 1959, he will obtain this information from a limited number of representative areas.
    The Solicitor-General: No. My noble Friend the Lord Chancellor has no difficulty in obtaining all the information he requires.
    Mr. Boyden: Could not the Lord Chancellor consider obtaining information along the lines suggested by the Royal Commission so that Members of the House could judge whether salary-earners and wage-earners are being appointed to the bench, as was recommended in the Report of the Royal Commission on Justices of the Peace?
    The Solicitor-General: My noble and learned Friend does obtain information about the occupations of those who are recommended for appointment. They do not fit in with the category set out in the Royal Commission's Report. Indeed, we do not really know the basis on which they were categorised. If the hon. Gentleman wishes for more information, we shall, of course, be glad to provide it.

  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    St. George's Day
    Mr. N. Pannellasked the Minister of Works on what public buildings in England and Wales the Union Jack and St. George's Flag will be flown on St. George's Day, 23rd April, 1960; and if he will ensure that there will be an adequate supply of such flags for the purpose.
    The Minister of Works (Lord John Hope): On St. George's Day, 23rd April, 1960, public buildings under my control in England which have two or more flag poles will fly the Union Flag with the St. George's Flag; where there is only one flag pole, the Union Flag will be flown. An adequate supply of flags will be available.
    Mr. Pannell: In view of the fact that the gracious consent of Her Majesty to this innovation was not the subject of
    190
    any Parliamentary pronouncement, will my noble Friend ensure that the widest publicity will be given to this decision which invests the National Day of England with the same significance as the National Days of Scotland and Wales?
    Lord John Hope: I am sure that Parliamentary Questions always receive adequate publicity.

    Civil Servants (Offices)
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Works how many offices of the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance are below the standard observed by his Department; how many civil servants work in these sub-standard offices; and how many of these offices will be rebuilt or considerably improved by the end of 1960.
    Lord John Hope: None, judged by the standards for office buildings recommended by the Gowers Committee. Some of these offices, however, are unsatisfactory for their present use for a variety of reasons, such as wrong location, and I am making improvements wherever possible.
    Mr. Boyden: Is the Minister not aware that there is a "black list" of about fourteen of these offices and a further black list of eight which remain to be inspected by officers of his Department? Does he consider these facts to be in line with his Reply to me of 8th March that
    "there are likely to be a few which are below standard … The number of staff affected would be very small."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th March, 1960; Vol. 619, c. 30.]
    Does he consider that twenty or so offices is a small number?
    Lord John Hope: In relation to the whole over the country, yes.

    PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS (TELEVISION)
    Mr. Donnellyasked the Prime Minister whether he will now publish the report that he received regarding the practicability of televising the proceedings of the House of Commons.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): No, Sir. The wish of the House seemed to me to be clear, that our

    191
    proceedings should not be televised. I do not therefore think that any purpose would be served by further consideration of the technical factors.
    Mr. Donnelly: In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman said that this was a House of Commons matter and accepted it as such, is there any reason to hang on to this report as though it were some dark secret weapon?
    The Prime Minister: I made it clear when we discussed the matter that we had a preliminary report as to the kind of thing which would be required, and I gave the House a picture of what it would be. It seems to me hardly worth while to go on with the technical side of it if we have made up our minds not to go on with it at all.

    UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA (PRIME MINISTER'S VISIT)
    Mr. Donnellyasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement regarding the consultations he had, while in South Africa, with the Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa regarding South Africa's future membership of the Commonwealth.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. My discussions with the Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa were confidential.
    Mr. Donnelly: Is the Prime Minister aware that the forthcoming Prime Ministers' conference will probably be the major test the Commonwealth has faced as an institution? What does he intend to do about it?
    The Prime Minister: Hold the conference, I hope. I hope it will be attended by all the Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Does the Prime Minister realise that, while for our part we have no desire to raise the difficult issue of membership of the Commonwealth, the presence of South Africa in the Commonwealth should not be allowed to prevent or inhibit the clear expression of critical opinion on the racial policies of the South African Government? Will he agree that the overwhelming majority of the British people received with a shock of horror the news of the police action at Cape Town yesterday, and will
    192
    he, consistent with the admirable speech he himself made in Cape Town last February, give to the South African Government early expression of his regret about what happened yesterday?
    The Prime Minister: Of course, what has happened in this tragic situation is a very great source of deep regret to me. I share to the full the feelings of sympathy for those who have suffered, but I ask the House to consider our position not as a party matter. The British Commonwealth has, I think, a great past. I believe it to have the possibilities of a great future. It will outlast the particular people who preside over the fortunes of any country at any given time. I think that we must remember not lightly to throw away or to injure what I am certain in the years ahead will be a great instrument for good.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Will the Prime Minister accept that I do not desire to make this a party issue and that I am well satisfied that the Prime Minister himself and many of his hon. Friends, although perhaps not all, feel as strongly as we do on the subject? Will not he also agree that what is happening in South Africa is bound to have a very great bearing on the future of the Commonwealth and that its influence on other countries already in the Commonwealth and those who, as they become independent, will, we hope, join it, may well be extremely adverse? In all these circumstances, will the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that these matters will be fully discussed at the Prime Ministers' conference?
    The Prime Minister: I fully accept what the right hon. Gentleman says, but he must also recognise the heavy responsibility which lies upon the Government, perhaps largely upon me, in this matter. I think it has been made clear already that the agenda of the formal conferences is fixed by the conference itself. There are certain traditions about it, but, as I saw from a statement made by the Premier of the Union a few days ago, that does not preclude us from using what influence we can to steer what we believe and hope is a right course in a good direction. That is quite different from taking an action which would be to precipitate a crisis in the Commonwealth. Britain has a great responsibility here,

    193
    and what I want to do is to use the Commonwealth and see it grow, but so to steer a course that we are able to preserve in full the structure which has been built up and to see that we do not err in precipitate action which might have very dangerous results.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the whole value of the Commonwealth consists in its maintaining certain social values and, in particular, its belief in democratic freedom and racial equality and that if it fails to do this, even if it holds together, it will largely have lost its significance in world affairs? Bearing all that in mind, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will make representations to the South African Government, as privately as he wishes, urging upon them the necessity for a change in policy?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. That is another question. I have expressed my view privately, and in a courteous way, as I thought, and I have tried to do so publicly. Our duty is to influence and to guide and to hope that, by so doing, the principles in which we believe will be accepted everywhere. But I repeat— and I think the right hon. Gentleman knows the position that he would be in if he had the same responsibility—that we have to be bold in the statement of our views but cautious in any action which, foolishly carried out, might jeopardise the whole structure of our Commonwealth proceedings in their formal character.

AIR FARES
The following Questions stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. CHETWYND: To ask the Minister of Aviation whether he will now make a statement on air fares.
Sir A. V. HARVEY: TO ask the Minister of Aviation if he intends to approve the new International Air Transport Association fares; if he will now announce his decisions about the outstanding very low fare applications on cabotage routes; and what proposals he has for safeguarding the interests of independent operators who have been providing colonial coach services.
Wing Commander BULLUS: To ask the Minister of Aviation if he will now make a statement of his intentions regarding the proposed new International Air Transport Association fares.
Mr. BURDEN: TO ask the Minister of Aviation what fare adjustments are likely as a result of his recent negotiations with civil aircraft operators.
The Minister of Aviation (Mr. Duncan Sandys): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to answer Questions Nos. 74, 75, 76 and 77.
At its annual conference in Honolulu, last autumn, the International Air Transport Association settled the new rates of fares for services in Europe, between Europe and South America, and between North and South America. However, the conference separated without reaching agreement on fares for the rest of the world. This was due largely to the demand for the introduction of cheaper fares, put forward by B.O.A.C, in agreement with Her Majesty's Government.
The conference having thus broken down, I announced last December that I had decided, in principle, to authorise B.O.A.C. to reduce its fares on our British cabotage routes to the West Indies, Africa and the Far East, for which international agreement is not required.
Thereupon the International Air Transport Association decided to reconvene its conference. Subject to some increases in certain first-class rates, it has now, with effect from 1st October, agreed to general reductions in the cheaper class fares. The new economy class fares will be up to 16 per cent. below the present rates for the tourist class. These reductions do not go as far as B.O.A.C. proposed, but this is a welcome step in the right direction. I have now formally approved these new fares; and I have authorised similar economy fares on the main British cabotage routes.
Subject to clearing up some outstanding points with the colonial Governments concerned I have, in addition, decided to authorise certain new classes of fares on our British routes, at very much cheaper rates. These will include special low fare services to East Africa, Central Africa, Aden, Bermuda, the Bahamas, the West Indies, Singapore and Hong

195
Kong. The new fares will be lower than the colonial coach fares, where these now exist, and will be between 25 per cent. and 30 per cent. below current tourist rates. On these routes I propose also to authorise still cheaper fares for inclusive tours. Special rates will also be introduced for students travelling in off season months. These will be between 40 per cent. and 50 per cent. below present tourist fares.
Unless some special action were taken, drastic reductions of this kind by B.O.A.C. would completely undermine the cheap air services which the independent airlines have built up. I therefore asked the Corporations and the independent companies concerned to discuss the problem and see if they could not work out together some mutually satisfactory arrangements. These discussions have resulted in agreements which will, I am sure, prove beneficial to the Corporations and the independents, as well as to the travelling public.
Airwork and Hunting Clan, now to be known as British United Airways, will share with B.O.A.C. the economy class and third-class services to East and Central Africa. The Eagle airline, in which the Cunard Shipping Company have acquired a majority holding, will operate services of all classes between Britain and Bermuda, in parallel with B.O.A.C. Partnership arrangements have likewise been made between B.E.A. and Skyways on the London—Malta route and between B.E.A. and British United Airways on the route between London and Gibraltar.
The House will, I am sure, welcome these agreements between the Corporations and the independents, which will, I hope, lead to fruitful co-operation in the years ahead. It will also, incidentally, dispose of some of the most controversial issues with which the new Licensing Board would otherwise have had to grapple.
Mr. Chetwynd: Is the Minister aware that this move to get lower fares will be very welcome on this side of the House and that it will bring air travel within the reach of many millions of people in future? Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he proposes to have a differential between jet aircraft and propeller-driven aircraft? Will the
196
I.A.T.A. fares rest for one year, or will B.O.A.C. still press for reductions in line with what the Corporation had in mind to begin with? In the case of shared routes, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Corporations feel that they are adequately safeguarded?
Mr. Sandys: There are certain differences between the jet and the other services. I will let the hon. Member have particulars.
In answer to the hon. Member's question about pressing for further reductions, I have no doubt that if the new reduced fares prove successful B.O.A.C. and other airlines will hope to get further reductions in future years.
Sir A. V. Harvey: Is my right hon. Friend aware that most people who are interested in this matter will congratulate him personally upon the part that he has played in bringing the Corporations and the independent operators together? Is he aware that what he has done will do a great deal for British civil aviation and transport generally?
Wing Commander Bullus: I join in the general congratulations extended to my right hon. Friend. Will he consider circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table setting out the new fares?
Mr. Sandys: I do not think that I can circulate all the new fares, but I will gladly circulate some typical examples.
Mr. Strauss: So as to get some idea of the consequences of the agreements arrived at between the Corporations and the independent airlines, and to see whether special benefit has gone in any direction, will the right hon. Gentleman publish the agreements which have been reached? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] As the Corporations are public concerns and the matter is very much one of public interest, will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to publish the agreements made between the Corporations and the independent airlines?
We are fairly well aware of the agreements which have been made between the Corporations and the national foreign services, and there seems no reason why we should not have information about these internal agreements.
Mr. Sandys: I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman is correct in saying

197
that the agreements between the Corporations and the foreign or Commonwealth airlines have been published. These are commercial agreements, and it would certainly not be proper for me to publish them. If the companies concerned and the Corporations wish to publish them, that is their affair.
Mr. Strauss: I take it that the right hon. Gentleman would have no objection to their publication, as it is plainly in the public interest that we should know what has happened. Will he at least support any suggestion that the contents of these agreements should be known?
Mr. Sandys: I certainly would not interfere with any wish that might be arrived at between the Corporations and the companies concerned.
Mr. Burden: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the new low fares will dispose of the applications for very low fares and, if so, whether this is a result of the arrangements between the independents and the Corporations?
Mr. Sandys: The independent airline companies who put forward these pro-

EXAMPLES OF REDUCED RETURN FARES ON BRITISH CABOTAGE ROUTES APPROVED WITH EFFECT FROM 1ST OCTOBER, 1960

Between London and

Current Tourist Class Fares

New Reduced Rates (Percentage reduction below current Tourist rates shown in brackets)

Economy Fares

New Low Fares

Bermuda

…

…

…

£219

£180(17%)

£153(30%)

Bahamas

…

…

…

£232

£190(18%)

£162(30%)

Jamaica

…

…

…

£253

£212(16%)

£176(30%)

Aden

…

…

…

£218

£184(16%)

£153(30%)

Nairobi

…

…

…

£234

£196(16%)

£166(30%)

Salisbury

…

…

…

£265

£221 (16%)

£185 (30%)

Singapore

…

…

…

£364

£328(10%)

£274(25%)

Hong Kong

…

…

…

£416

£374(10%)

£311(25%)

posals for even lower fares have, in the light of the new arrangements, informed me that they have decided to withdraw their applications.
Mr. Chetwynd: Can the Minister say whether the Corporations agreed to these proposals in full, and what effect the agreements will have in diverting traffic from the Corporations to the independents?
Mr. Sandys: There are two questions here. The first concerns the arrangements between the Corporations and the Companies, and the other concerns the new fares. The new fares were discussed by the Corporations, the colonial Governments concerned and myself, and complete agreement has been reached on them. I asked the Corporations and the independent airlines to discuss the arrangements together, and they have come to these agreements among themselves.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: We cannot debate this matter at Question Time.
Following are examples of the new fares:

UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA (UNITED KINGDOM CITIZENS)
The Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations (Mr. C. J. M. Alport): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I will make a statement.
On Thursday, I promised to keep the (House as fully informed as possible about United Kingdom citizens who may be under arrest there as a result of the emergency in the Union of South Africa.
The United Kingdom High Commissioner in South Africa has reported that he has been assured by the Union Prime Minister that as soon as any arrested person has been identified, to the satisfaction of the Union Government, as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies, or a British-protected person, the High Commissioner, or his representative, may have access to him.
The High Commissioner has so far been informed of the names of three United Kingdom citizens who have been arrested: Mr. Peter Wilkins, who has now been released; Miss Hannah Stanton; and Dr. Elias Letele. The High Commissioner is arranging to send a representative to visit both Miss Stanton and Dr. Letele immediately.
The High Commissioner has been further assured by the Union Prime Minister that persons against whom charges are brought will appear before the ordinary courts and may be legally represented. If they apply for bail this will be a matter for the courts to decide.
Mr. Marquand: We welcome the action taken by the High Commissioner and its successful outcome so far. May we be assured that in future, whenever and wherever arrests take place, the High Commissioner will pursue similar action and ascertain as quickly as possible whether British subjects or British-protected persons are involved? In that connection, does the hon. Member expect any difficulty, in view of the fact that the agreement made between the High Commissioner and the Union Government requires that any arrested person should be identified to the satisfaction of the Union Government?
Is not there a danger that the Union Government may insist upon the production of a pass? Can the hon. Gentle-
200
man assure the House that if that is done the High Commissioner will still proceed to try to identify a British-protected person?
Mr. Alport: The problem of identification is largely related to the problem of dual citizenship, which, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, is one of the difficulties which often arise in these cases. As we understand it from the High Commissioner, the Union Government are concerned to make certain that a person arrested is not a dual citizen. There are difficulties with regard to identification which are purely practical, but I know of no reason to suppose that that will prevent the High Commissioner from obtaining the information he requires, or unduly delay him in obtaining it, when the occasion arises.
Mr. Marquand: In view of all we know about the action of the Africans in burning passes, can we be assured that the hon. Member will draw to the attention of the High Commissioner the fact that it is possible to identify people without requiring them to produce passes?
Mr. Alport: I would not like to go into the technicalities of the matter, but I agree that it is possible to identify people without the production of passes. Nevertheless, I would have thought that the lack of passes might, in some cases at any rate lead to some delay.
Mr. Gresham Cooke: Is my hon. Friend aware that Miss Stanton comes of a distinguished family who lived in my constituency for over fifty years; that her father was Sir Thomas Stanton, the well-known scientist of the National Physical Laboratory, and that she has a local reputation of being not only an ardent church worker, but a very public-spirited person? Can my hon. Friend press the High Commissioner—who, I am sure, has sympathy with this case— to ask for Miss Stanton's release on bail as soon as possible?
Mr. Alport: As I said in my original statement, the First Secretary of the High Commissioner's Office will visit Miss Stanton immediately, and all those questions will be discussed by the High Commissioner with the authorities as soon as his representative has reported to him.
Mr. Grimond: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us how long these two people have been in prison; whether any charges have been brought against them, and, if so, what the charges are?
Mr. Alport: I am not aware of any charges having been brought against them. As far as I understand it, they are detained under the emergency regulations. The period for which they have been imprisoned is about a week.
Mr. Callaghan: What is the nature of the conversations that are to take place between the High Commissioner and the Government of South Africa? Have Her Majesty's Government instructed our High Commissioner in South Africa to protest against the arbitrary arrest and detention of these men and women, under the existing oppressive laws of South Africa?
Mr. Alport: The instructions that have been sent to the High Commissioner are the instructions that would be sent to any diplomatic representative in the circumstances, namely, to give all the help that lies in his power to those arrested.
Mr. Callaghan: Surely the matter goes further than that. Are we not all aware, from the public reputations of the people who have been arrested—who are well known to other hon. Members as well as the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke)—that it is quite absurd that they should be detained by any civilised State in respect of any crime concerned with freedom or liberty? May I impress upon the Minister the necessity for our Government to protest to the South African Government and make it clear that we do not accept their code of conduct or behaviour in relation to British citizens, and that it is our Government's duty to protect them?
Mr. Alport: It is certainly the Government's duty to give what assistance they can, but I think that it is important that we should wait for the report which the High Commissioner will be able to send
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us as a result of the visit of his representative. I realise that hon. Members on both sides of the House may have very strong feelings about this. As far as the Government are concerned, the position was very clearly set out by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in relation to an earlier Question today.
Mr. S. Silverman: Does the hon. Gentleman not think it highly dangerous, almost mischievous, to pay tributes in the House to the high-mindedness, liberality and public spirit of these persons? Is it not for these qualities that they are being detained?
Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Does my hon. Friend recall that the Opposition poured its moral censure upon another country during the summer of 1956 and later resiled from it? Will he continue to resist falling into a particular frame of mind at the invitation of right hon. and hon. Members opposite?
Mr. Gaitskell: Is the Minister aware that we are not here raising again the general issue of any Government statement about South African policy? What we are asking is that the High Commissioner should demand the release of these two British citizens unless there can be charged against them offences which really count in ordinary law. Will the hon. Gentleman give the High Commissioner instructions that he is to act accordingly?
Mr. Alport: I realise that the right hon. Gentleman is gravely concerned about this, but I do not think that he can be pressing upon the Government that they can demand the release of any particular person regardless of the law of the country in which that person is residing at any time. That would be a new approach to international law with which I am not familiar, but in these circumstances it is right and obviously proper that the High Commissioner, on instructions from the Government, should give any help which he possibly can.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Mr. Mellish: On a point of order. During the hour of Question Time today it took 15 minutes to answer the 33 Questions to the Colonial Secretary. They were answered by the Minister of State for Commonwealth Relations. Most of the replies were very long indeed, some were very tedious and most of them unsatisfactory. I have noticed in the past, Mr. Speaker, that quite properly you have rebuked hon. Members on both sides of the House for asking very long supplementary questions. With great respect, has not the time come when Ministers should be told that Answers should be short, to the point, simple and straightforward?
Mr. Speaker: I am much in favour of rebuking others in respect of Questions and Answers. I suspect that there was some ineptitude of my own involved, but I rely on the House to try to help me. It is fair to remember that Ministers answering for other Ministers outside their Department—though I do not know—have conceivably to read considerably more. I should be glad of any help the House can give me by shortening Questions or Answers at all times.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Considered in Committee [Progress 4th April]
  [Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]
  AMENDMENT OF THE LAW
  Question again proposed,
  That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the national debt, and the public revenue and to make further provision in connection with finance, so, however, that this Resolution shall not extend to making amendments of the enactments relating to purchase tax so as to give relief from tax, other than amendments making the same provision for chargeable goods of whatever description or for all goods to which any of the several rates of tax at present applies.
  3.54 p.m.

  BUDGET PROPOSALS AND ECONOMIC SITUATION
  Mr. Harold Wilson: Now that the magic of the Chancellor's eloquence is dying away we can begin to look at his Budget in perspective, to assess what it does, what it fails to do, and its relevance to the problems which the country is facing. Before I deal with his detailed proposals, I must refer to the problems which the Chancellor was facing. The Budget was rightly described in a weekend journal as a "morning-after Budget". The boom which was so timely for the right hon. Gentleman last year is, in the Chancellor's view, clearly getting out of hand, so he had to take measures to damp it down. But his task in providing a big enough disinflationary budgetary surplus was made more difficult by the inordinate rise in Government expenditure in this year's Estimates.
  My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition referred last night to all the election propaganda last October—the "spendthrift" Socialists, with all those wildcat schemes for higher pensions and the rest, would raise Government expenditure by £750 million in five years. Now the Chancellor presents Estimates showing an increase of £320 million in a single year. It was not only Lord Hail-sham. There was the Home Secretary —and I am sorry that he is not here.

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  The right hon. Gentleman, of course, has an unrivalled claim to speak on any subject dealing with the relations between budgeteering and electioneering. The whole country listens to his words with attention. On 1st October he made a speech proving how irresponsible it was of the Labour Party to say that the £200 million required to increase pensions could be found without bankrupting the country.
  The right hon. Gentleman said:
  "The natural increase of expenditure next year, that is to say, what we have to spend without their programme or ours, will be in the order of £100 million. That will leave the Chancellor about £85 million in hand"—
  that is, for this year's Budget—
  "nothing like enough to meet even the measures which they are pledged to implement … well over £200 million."
  But the Chancellor is budgeting this year for an extra £322 million without even providing a penny for increased pensions.
  We might go further back than last October. We all remember the flamboyance of the Prime Minister during his brief call at the Treasury four years ago. We remember how he set out to reduce Government expenditure where his predecessor, the ill-fated Home Secretary, had failed. He pledged himself in his 1956 Budget to cut Government expenditure by £100 million and he based his whole Budget on that pledge. We all remember his moving reference to the Treasury portrait on Mr. Gladstone— "those eyes … nostalgic and reproachful". Thus inspired, Government expenditure was to be kept to a figure £100 million less than the 1956–57 Estimates. But today the Chancellor is budgeting for a figure not £100 million less than the 1956–57 Estimates, but well over £1,000 million more.
  The actual figure above the line is £1,060 million more than the figure to which the Prime Minister pledged himself to reduce Government expenditure. That is, if I may say so, £676 million more than the figure on which the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) made his famous last ditch stand only two years ago, and these figures are above the line. Below the line expenditure is, of course, now completely out of control.
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  The Committee obviously cannot view this with complacency. That is, I know, the view of honourable rebels below the Gangway, led by the neo-Gladstonian, the noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke). So close is the noble Lord getting to Gladstone these days that we might even apply to him the famous words used by Macaulay about Gladstone:
  "The rising hope of those stern unbending Tories who follow, reluctantly and mutinously, a leader whose experience and eloquence are indispensable to them, but whose cautious temper and moderate opinions they abhor."
  In so far as hon. Members opposite are girding against the necessity of paying the bill for policy expenditure for which they voted, such as defence, or National Assistance or education, I do not follow them. Certainly, this party on this side of the Committee will never support moves to dismantle the Welfare State so as to reduce Surtax.
  The real problem that we are facing is value for money, the avoidance of waste, tighter systems of controlling expenditure. I cannot help feeling that if a few Ministers spent more time discharging their responsibilities as guardians of the public purse, and less time seeking personal publicity for themselves, we should be debating very different figures and a very different Budget. [Laughter.] Oh, yes, we were all deeply moved by seeing the Minister of Transport helping an old lady across the road. We just wondered how there happened to be a photographer there.
  The Leader of the House is to bold conversations on the Parliamentary control of expenditure. He will find us on this side of the Committee highly co-operative and. while I do not want to worry the Committee with the details of what we propose, I can say that the right hon. Gentleman will receive from us concrete and constructive proposals for a much fuller degree of Parliamentary responsibility on this problem of value for money. Our proposal will combine the participation of the House as a whole with the expertise and hard work of members of the Public Accounts and Estimates Committees.
  Now I turn to the Chancellor's proposals. I do not propose to follow him on hackney carriages, playing cards, cigarette lighters, heavy oil for road vehicles, and other details—all of them

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  Finance Bill points. I should like to offer a hearty welcome to the abolition of the Entertainments Duty. Against hon. Gentlemen opposite, we voted for this last summer. Again, we welcome his proposal on post-war credits, and I think that we can claim to have pressed these proposals on him every time he has answered Questions in this Parliament.
  On the dependent relative and on the housekeeper allowance, and the allowance for widows and widowers where there is no resident housekeeper, we divided the House in support of these reliefs last year, and I am glad that the Chancellor has found our eloquence or our votes so convincing. On Estate Duty and gifts inter vivos, as my right hon. Friend said last night, our welcome is not quite so enthusiastic. There is already so much avoidance of Estate Duty that we should have pressed for a further tightening-up and not a relaxation of the Estate Duty provisions.
  I come now to tobacco. As my right hon. Friend has suggested, just as the "pots and pans" Budget was the pay-off for the Home Secretary's Income Tax hand-out five years ago, so the 2d. on cigarettes is the pay-off for the Chancellor's 2d. off beer a year ago. I well remember the hysterical cries from right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite when my noble Friend, as he is now, Lord Dalton, raised the price of cigarettes to 3s. 4d. for 20s. I remember what promises they made in those days.
  The present Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, whose promises have always outrun his performance, told the country during the 1955 election:
  "It is a part of the Conservative policy to reduce the price of cigarettes and tobacco."
  I agree that the Chancellor's new imposition will not be a great hardship for some people, but hon. Members should remember that it was they who withdrew the tobacco concession from old-age pensioners two and a half years ago, and that the old folk, at any rate, are the least able to bear this increase.
  Turning to the Profits Tax, we have no complaint to make of the Chancellor's proposal, but we think that he might well have gone further.
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  Certainly, what he should have done about this, when finding himself in the present economic situation, was to restore the discriminatory tax between undistributed and distributed profits, and there was certainly a case for much higher tax on dividends.
  The Budget proposals involve a number of detailed proposals on tax law, most of which can be left for the debates on the Finance Bill, but I should like to give a welcome for the proposal to deal with the problem of penalties to be incurred in case of incorrect returns. A few weeks ago, I joined the hon. Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Stevens) in pressing the Chancellor to amend these Draconian provisions, and we shall want to see what the actual proposals are to be in the Bill.
  I turn to the proposals to fortify the Revenue against tax avoidance. We have been pressing the Chancellor and his predecessors for several years to take these measures and others which are even more necessary. Tax-loss farming we have pressed year after year, and the recent report by the Comptroller and Auditor General shows that millions of pounds are lost in taxation by the stockbroker farmer and his like.
  The right hon. Gentleman's proposal to deal with the "golden handshake" was not the least welcomed on this side of the Committee. Hon. Members will remember that on 29th June last year, I gave details of 11 of these redundant directors receiving a total of £575,000 tax-free between them. This is an average of £52,000 each, which is more than Manchester City paid Huddersfield Town for an inside forward. This shows what a distorted sense of values we are now getting. I gathered from the Chancellor's reply to an intervention of mine yesterday that this proposal does not affect lawyers. This is a very great disappointment, I am sure, to all those hon. Members on both sides of the Committee who are not referred to as "learned".
  Once again, the right hon. Gentleman brings forward proposals to close yet another loophole discovered by the ingenious fraternity of dividend strippers. We warned the Home Secretary about this in 1955 and we warned the Chancellor, two years ago, that these people would find ways round his legislation. We told him then that he needed a

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  general anti-avoidance provision to deter these racketeers, and I am glad that he has at last had the courage to take our advice.
  I am not quite sure that what the right hon. Gentleman proposes is the right method. We would have provided another method. It is rather difficult, and the Treasury has to prove motive, but I would have preferred our own proposals three years ago to give the Treasury power to introduce an Order, subject to the affirmative Resolution procedure, and requiring ratification by the House in the next Finance Bill. This would have the advantage of leaving the House and not the Inland Revenue in command of the situation. For all that, these measures, so far as they go, will have our full support. I cannot say that about hon. Gentlemen behind the Chancellor, whose response yesterday, I can tell him, was less than enthusiastic. From where he stood, he could not see them. We could, and I must say that they looked rather like a collection of St. Bernards which had lost their brandy. Indeed, when I saw the account in the Daily Express of last night's secret Committee meeting upstairs, and when I read, also, that among the resigning Treasury Ministers two years ago, the right hon. Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) was playing a leading part in the attacks on the Chancellor, I can almost envisage the noble Lord and some of his colleagues chanting "Bring back the 'birch'". I hope that the Chancellor is not going to run away from his right hon., hon. and hon. and learned Friends as he did two years ago. The knives are being sharpened.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Wilson: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman is still in such good heart after having his moustachios pulled by the Patronage Secretary this morning.
  But I want to deal seriously with this problem. Whatever difficulties there may be from that side of the Committee, I promise the Chancellor that we on this side will try to throw over him the mantle of our protection, including our support in the Lobby, if he will undertake to stand firm against his hon. Friends.
  Mr. Nabarro: That is just what is wrong with the Budget. The right hon. Gentleman is supporting it.
  Mr. Wilson: I think that it would be churlish of us not to offer the Chancellor that protection. After all, he is proving an apt pupil, though perhaps a little slow. In reference to what the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) has just said, I have just heard that one Conservative Member has received a telegram from his constituents asking him to congratulate Harold Wilson on his Budget.
  This, I would suggest, is entirely to misconceive the problem, because neither the Chancellor nor his hon. Friends—if I may go on using that phrase—should get the idea that he has really done more than scratch the surface of tax avoidance. In fact, he has hardly begun. What he has done is to deal in a very limited fashion with the professionals. Quite rightly; that needed doing. He has dealt with the Players but he has not yet started to deal with the Gentlemen, and he will find them a much tougher proposition when it comes to tax avoidance.
  The noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South—I am sorry to keep on referring to him, but at least he is thinking about this problem—in a recent letter to The Times, said that the present taxation system of the country was
  "… a tax code framed by radical Liberals half a century ago for a slum economy."
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: So it was.
  Mr. Wilson: I will not ask the noble Lord which party created the slum economy, but it is a testimony to the ingenuity and resource of the moneyed classes of this country that they have turned this slum taxation system into one which so aptly and speedily helps a great number of rich taxpayers to dodge their fair share of taxation. The characteristic of our tax system under right hon. Gentlemen opposite is that those who make money flourish, and that those who earn money are penalised.
  We have often debated expense accounts. The different treatment of Schedule D and Schedule E is a national scandal, grossly unfair to P.A.Y.E. taxpayers, wage and salary earners, civil servants, thousands of professional

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  people, the vast majority of whom pay their full tax liability. I will not repeat all the evidence we have brought forward in previous debates on this subject, but there is some information which, I think, is worth examining. For example, not long ago the Chancellor published a new estimate of the proportion of the nation's £400 million drink bill which he pays for; that is, the part which enters into tax-deductible business entertainment. He stepped up the figure from 5 per cent. to 10 per cent., but that is probably still an underestimate. Yet, even so, £40 million a year seems to me to represent an excessive amount of cancellarian hospitality.
  It can be calculated that the right hon. Gentleman is probably paying for roughly 1 million drinks, wines and spirits, every day of the year—and still he is not popular. We have all seen what goes on. This is, in fact, the Tory Welfare State—free drinks for the businessmen, prescription charges for the sick and old. Whether all this alcohol is really needed to lubricate the production system is arguable, I should think. Some may hold that, so far from increasing, it diminishes productivity and commercial acumen. What is beyond argument is that there is no need for the Chancellor to pay for it.
  This is not all. This hospitality is becoming more expansive. Hon. Members may have seen some of the authoritative and revealing social surveys of the Soho area, which some Sunday newspapers have been publishing recently, with obvious reluctance and distaste, sternly putting their public duty before their desire for circulation.
  On one thing all these sociologists agree, that these "mushroom" theatre clubs, if we may so call them, which cause so much pain to the Home Secretary, flourish largely under the patronage of expense accounts. It may well be that just as the de Medicis went down to history as the patrons of Florentine art, so the right hon. Gentleman will be remembered as the patron of the new art forms which flourish in Soho. He can read about them in the Sunday papers.
  Again, I was struck recently by some interesting figures in the latest Report of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue for 1957–58—there are no later figures.
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  According to that Report, 115,000 incorporated businesses earned less than £250 a year. Those include over half the businesses in the country. Their average net true income declared for tax purposes was £31 a year. Then, taking individual Schedule D taxpayers, nearly half a (million, one-third of the total, had a net true income of under £250 a year. The average was £120.
  Another one-third of the taxpayers had incomes of between £250 and £500, averaging £300. Making every allowance for part-time jobs and the rest, if these tax returns are true private enterprise seems neither so efficient nor so profitable as it is made out to be. Yet these firms and these individuals survive year by year. Their numbers are maintained. They have not even got a Guillebaud Report to look after their earning power.
  The Chancellor is a humane man. His heart, I know, bleeds for these people who are living on such a low standard of life. Stoically and uncomplainingly they seek to keep up appearances as they commute in their Bentleys from the National Assistance Board to the Savoy Grill. What, I wonder, is this: what do they live on, what is their real spending power? How many of those unprofitable businesses have a car provided, and an initial allowance for it? How many have tax-free expense accounts several times their taxable income?
  As the Observer said a week or two ago, how many buy a £1,000 car and then deduct £550 right away from their taxable income in a single year? Despite all this, during the election last year the Prime Minister solemnly assured the country that, even if there were a determined drive against tax avoidance, the total yield would not exceed £250,000 a year. The right hon. Gentleman's regard for statistical truth, of course, has always been somewhat elliptical, not least at election time.
  I referred earlier to the professional tax avoidance industry, to which the Chancellor is belatedly turning his attention. While he is doing this, even unskilled amateurs are learning the game. Poujardiste newspaper articles are popularising tax avoidance on a "Do-it-yourself" basis. Take, for example, the remarkable series in the Evening Standard, a few weeks ago. I can do no more than pick out a few highlights.

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  Article No. 1 was entitled "How to pay less tax". This was a general introduction to the series. Article No. 2 was entitled "Another £1,000 a year? It's yours". The advice was to get into a top-hat pension scheme. Article No. 3 was called, "Who pays the school fees in your family?" The idea is to cast the burden on the Chancellor by means of covenants. We are told that a £30,000 a year man can make payments of £5,000 a year at a cost to himself of only £560, the Chancellor looks after the rest. The article continued:
  "For some people the setting up of 'one-man' companies may sometimes be a convenient way of saving Surtax. But its application can also be used to save death duties"
  The theme is more fully argued in the fourth article, under the title "Death Duties: will you have to pay?" Of course not, unless you are very imprudent. No wonder the yield both of Surtax and Estate Duty has entirely failed to expand as compared with prewar, despite the increased rates of tax to a level which even begins to correspond to increased income and wealth and changes in the value of money.
  The fifth article has a silvicultural flavour. If you can wait twenty years, you can earn big rewards by investing in private woodlands, if, of course, you are, as they say, high up in the tax bracket. The sixth article is also rather specialised. "This way you can win at horse-racing." The thing to do is to own a stud farm.
  All this might be amusing if we could ignore its economic and moral effects. I wonder how the Chancellor can come along and appeal for wage restraint in the face of these scandals? All the facts I have given today are known to the Chancellor and they were known to his predecessors. Why have they not dealt with them? The answer is because the right hon. Gentleman and his party believe in the fundamental inequality which this system represents; because they are not content with the wide variations in economic rewards which our present economic society creates, or with the even more unjust distribution of wealth and property.
  Over and above a maldistribution of income and wealth and social privilege, they have perpetuated a system of fiscal
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  privilege which makes nonsense of the Prime Minister's post-election claim that we have become one nation. The Chancellor knows that even if he tried to deal with this problem his party would never let him do it, because there are too many Tory crusts dipping into this gravy. [An HON. MEMBER: "What would the Opposition do?"] An hon. Member asks what we would do. Let me tell him, and, at the same time, give the lie to such election propaganda as the polling day article in the Daily Sketch called "Odd job Gestapo—if you don't vote Right."
  To deal with expense accounts one does not need a vast army of snoopers nor to go primarily for the individual. The Government need only provide that a firm's appropriation for business entertainment and sales promotion shall only be tax—exempt as to, say, 50 per cent. or less.
  Secondly, on cars, abolish the initial allowances and, where cars are legitimately provided, limit the annual tax allowance to a fixed percentage—say, 6 or 7 per cent. of the individual's declared income for tax purposes.
  Thirdly, alter the law to get rid of some of these "phoney" trusts which have been established for the payment of school fees and for death duty avoidance.
  Fourthly, both to deal with this shady no-man's-land between taxable income and tax-free capital gains, and to bring greater social justice into the tax system, introduce an effective capital gains tax.
  Apart from the tax on capital gains, nothing of what I have said presupposes any new taxes or increased rates of tax. It is a suggestion for making the existing laws effective. I make two other suggestions, however. The first, which I put last year, is that there should be an Excise duty on commercial television advertising revenue, which has now reached fantastic levels. When programme contractors have described their franchise as a licence to print money, I see no reason why the State which issues the licence should not, either by charging for the licence or by a tax such as the Excise duty on footpall pool revenues, recover some of the easy profits which accrue.
  Secondly, on economic grounds there is a case for some tax on fuel oil for

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  space heating. This was exempted from the general hydro-carbon oil duties in 1947 because of the fuel position then, which has now changed. Without going back to anything like the pre-1947 rates, a duty of, say, lid. per gallon would not only do much at the margin to help indigenous fuels and reduce dependence on imported fuel, but produce enough revenue within the oil duties to enable the Chancellor to abolish the whole of the diesel oil tax on road passenger transport.
  A budget, in modern times, must be judged on two tests: how far it succeeds in promoting social justice and how far it helps to solve the economic problems facing the country. On the social test, this Budget, like its predecessors, has dismally failed. As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition reminded the Committee yesterday, the biggest oharge against the Chancellor is his treatment of old-age pensioners and others in need. Once again, the Government have passed by on the other side.
  Whether it is a "give-away" Budget, like that of last year, with £340 million of remission in taxation, or, as the Chancellor called it yesterday, a "fortification and consolidation", not a penny can be found for increasing the basic pension.
  During the past year the total national product has risen by £2,000 million, yet the Chancellor cannot find £200 million to put up the pension. Other sections of the community have done well. Vast fortunes have been made on the stock market and in some rather sordid property deals, but the old, the sick, and the disabled have become the forgotten legion of this country.
  Taking the Chancellor's three Budgets together, which account for some very substantial reliefs in taxation, his guiding principle is this, "Let me ask who is paying the most in taxation, for he is my first priority for relief; the money, after all, is his, and when I can afford to withhold less he should be the first to get relief."
  Our approach, on the other hand, is based on the simple proposition, "From each according to his means, to each according to his needs." In our view, all income and wealth come funda-
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  mentally from the community, and the individual taxpayer is a trustee for that wealth and income on behalf of the nation, so that taxation, so far from being, as the Conservatives regard it, a distortion of a sanctified natural economic process, is one of the main weapons for correcting the distortions and injustices which result from our economic system. To a Conservative a high rate of Surtax on the millionaire is a distortion. To us, the millionaire is the distortion. That is the difference between the two sides of the House.
  Mr. Cyril Osborne: What about the Opposition's millionaires?
  Mr. Wilson: I think that we have rather fewer millionaires than the Conservatives have, but they, under a Labour Government, would pay their full share of taxation.
  Let us take another example—the need for houses to let is as great as ever. Every Member from an industrial area, and many others, knows the tragedy and hardship of overcrowding and of broken homes. Yet the Chancellor refuses to restore the Government housing subsidies.
  Mr. David Price: Quite right.
  Mr. Wilson: It would cost no more than what the Chancellor gave up yesterday in the reduced duty on port, but I am glad to get the hon. Member's sense of social priorities right.
  Mr. Price: The right hon. Gentleman is being unfair. Under the Labour Government there were trade agreements with other countries which involved reciprocal measures. What has been done with port is a reciprocal measure under the Outer Seven Free Trade Association to make it a little more attractive to Portugal. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was in favour of promoting exports.
  Mr. Wilson: The hon. Member need not apologise. He said "Quite right" to what I said about the housing subsidy before I even mentioned port.
  I now turn to the other criterion by which a Budget must be judged, and that is its effect on the economic situation. Yesterday, the Chancellor gave an optimistic and complacent account of

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  the economic position. As I listened to his recital of last year's results— 10 per cent. increase in production, a big increase in productivity, buoyant revenues, and stable prices—I could not help feeling how events of the past year have proved the case we have been putting year by year, which is that only by increasing production can we create the revenue needed for improved social services, and that the way to keep prices down is not by holding production down and endangering full employment, but by following a policy of steady expansion.
  The tragedy is that because of the neglect of investment our industrial base is still so inadequate that after only one year of expansion the Government take fright and begin to apply the brake. Yet, even in the fourth quarter of last year, production was still only 8 per cent. above what it was in the corresponding quarter of 1955—an average increase of 2 per cent. a year. We are still lagging behind the rest of Europe.
  A tragedy is that the brake is being applied just as investment in manufacturing industry is beginning to recover from the cuts applied in 1957 by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Monmouth. As the Economic Survey pointed out, even in the last quarter of 1959, manufacturing investment was 7 per cent. lower than it was a year earlier. I cannot emphasise too strongly that in the long run it will be by our investment record that we shall survive and prosper among industrial nations.
  It was significant, also, that the very week in January in which the Board of Trade figures showed a prospective rise in investment in manufacturing industries was the week in which the Bank Rate was raised. When the Governor of the Bank of England, last autumn, began to hint at the need to use the brake—even before investment had shown any signs of recovery—he made it clear that one reason in his mind was that the Stock Exchange boom, the speculative fever in the City, was getting out of hand. It is because the Government can find no means of restraining the City, and because acquisitive interests in the City could not restrain themselves, that we have had to put the brake on the economy as a whole and productive industry and urgently needed capital investment have had to be sacrificed to an uncontrollable speculative
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  boom concerned only with private gain.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer was very frank when he told us about our serious balance of payments position. When the Prime Minister, during the election, claimed that our balance of payments position was strong, he was speaking in a year in which the balance of payments surplus was the lowest since 1955—£145 million. He was speaking in the fourth quarter of last year, when there was a deficit on our current balance of payments account.
  I understand that it is Government policy to produce a surplus on current account of £450 million. The Treasury said this in its evidence to the Radcliffe Committee, as shown at Question No. 13,358—£450 million should be achieved year in and year out as a current surplus on our balance of payments. Last year it was not £450 million, but £145 million. The Chancellor gave some explanation. He said that our imports have risen a good deal more than our exports, our re-exports are down and there is a worsening on invisible account. This is partly due to increased Government expenditure abroad. In present circumstances we might be able to afford either an expensive Foreign Secretary or an expensive Minister of Defence, but not both at once, and it seems to be time to have an investigation into this very serious increase in Government expenditure abroad, which is worsening our balance of payments year by year.
  There has been an increase in net expenditure on foreign travel and a big fall in net oil earnings, as the Chancellor said. How big this is we do not know, because the Chancellor is very coy about publishing any figures about oil earnings. He publishes statistics of most other things in detail, yet he refuses to tell us anything about oil, and considering the great political influence on the Government that the oil companies seem to have, it seems to me that at least we ought to be told something of the economics of the oil industry.
  When I said that the balance of payments last year was £100 million worse than even in the crisis year of 1957, this does not necessarily mean an impending foreign exchange crisis. In 1957, against a background of a favourable and an improving balance of payments, a grave

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  exchange crisis broke out on speculative grounds because many people wanted to get into deutschmarks and dollars. At present, there is no sign of any serious imbalance in world currencies which could precipitate a similar run on sterling, but the figures which the Chancellor gave yesterday show, I think, that we are highly vulnerable in our balance of payments and that we have been made the more vulnerable by successive acts of Government imprudence.
  The position is that our trading surplus, such as it is. including that on invisible account, is nothing like big enough to pay for our commitments in the way of investment overseas. This means that our monetary reserves have been falling, and in so far as we have been able to keep afloat, it has been by short-term capital movements coming in from abroad.
  I am not suggesting that we are over-lending. My complaint is not against the amount we are lending but against the fact that we are not making enough available in terms of current surplus to honour that lending with savings. We are now getting into our traditionally vulnerable posture of borrowing short and lending long. I hope that this afternoon the President of the Board of Trade will address himself to these problems. What are the prospects, in his view, for increasing exports? The markets are there, but we are losing ground year by year compared with other countries. The right hon. Gentleman recently told industrialists, I understand, that delivery dates for exports are lengthening—another sign of strain.
  I hope that either he or the Chancellor will tell us what they think of the proposals which we put forward in the debate on the Radcliffe Report for an export-import bank in this country to supplement the work of the E.C.G.D., and the various other suggestions which we made about international liquidity. I also hope that he will give us an up-to-date statement on prospects in Europe. Whatever the Prime Minister may or may not have said in Washington last week, the position is deteriorating sharply while the President of the Board of Trade is still proceeding in stately fashion from seminar to seminar round Europe.
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  Let me give the Committee just two examples. We export a lot of washing machines to West Germany in competition with Common Market countries. Under the Hallstein plan the tariff for Common Market products will fall from 7 per cent. to 6 per cent. but for British machines it will rise from 7 per cent. to 10 per cent. We are still exporting a lot of the bigger models of cars to Western Germany. Under the plan the tariff on other Common Market cars will fall from 16 per cent. to 14 per cent. while that on British cars will go up from 16 per cent. to 24 per cent. These are very serious figures, and I hope that the President of the Board of Trade will say something about them.
  Turning from exports, we should like to know more about the Government's policy for easing internal strains. Certainly, the Budget is quite inadequate for dealing with these. Yesterday, the Chancellor was muttering dark threats at the banks. What has he in mind? An increase in the Bank Rate? Surely it is high already. Any further increase will place an impossible burden on local authorities, on building society mortgage holders and on holders of gilt-edged. Was he hinting at the use of special deposits? It might commend the idea to hon. Members opposite if I told them that the special deposits idea was first put into the Chancellor's mind from these benches. It is another product of our very limited bipartisanship in these matters.
  Is it not time that the Chancellor dropped this game of cat and mouse with the banks, all this pre-1914 mumbo-jumbo, all this elaborate quadrille, keeping the banks guessing? Why does he not send for the banks' chairmen, tell them what he wants them to do and then see that they do it?
  I must tell the Chancellor that it is no good his thinking that he will bail himself out this time by appeals for wage restraint. The Government have lost the right to make those appeals. During the election, one Minister after another, not least the present Colonial Secretary, then Minister of Labour, claimed that under the Tories wages had risen high. The truth was that they had risen in spite of the Government, not because of them. It was all the fault of the wicked trade union leaders. You cannot appeal for votes in 1959 on

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  a higher wages policy and then spend 1960 asking the trade unions to bail you out with wage restraint.
  I go further and say that the whole election was fought on the principle of free for all, grab all you can, never mind those who have not a dinghy. For three months after the election the Stock Exchange thought that the country had voted for that. You cannot have a free-for-all and say that the only people who should observe restraint are trade unions and their members, the more so when the Government's policies promote more and more unequal distribution of wealth and income.
  If hon. Members look at last year's figures, for example, they will see that wage rates rose by just over 1 per cent., or 3d. in the £. Wage earnings, partly through increased hours, rose by 5 per cent., or 1s. in the £. Company profits rose by 11 per cent., or 2s. 2d. in the £. Equity dividends before tax rose by 13 per cent., or 2s. 7d. in the £. Equity dividends after tax rose a good deal more. Share prices rose by 45½ per cent., or over 9s. in the £.
  If hon. Members look at the figures of the equity shares boom over the past two years they will see the growing inequality due to this. Anyone who held £10,000 of representative equity shares in January, 1958, would have found his holdings in January this year worth £18,000, the whole of the increase being tax-free. But if the holdings had been in a representative group of property shares, the £10,000 would now be worth nearly £27,000. He would have made, tax-free, without raising a finger, £17,000 in those two years. It would take a mainline engine driver, of whom we have heard a lot recently, thirty years, nearly his whole lifetime's work on the footplate, to get as much money as that— and it would be taxed.
  For those who own land the capital profits are even more fantastic. More and more newly married couples in this property-owning democracy are being priced out of the market by land charges when they want to build on the outskirts of large towns and cities. As for land prices in the centres of big cities, the problem can be judged by the fact that I am told that to build a 10-storey garage in Central London—knowing how expensive it is to build a 10-storey garage in
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  Central London—costs less than the money which has to be laid out to acquire the site.
  Before I sit down I want for a few moments to take the debate on to a rather wider theme than that provided by the right hon. Gentleman's Budget. This is the first Budget debate of the new Parliament; the first, indeed, of the 1960s, a period which, for good or ill, will leave its mark on the future of the country. Not only our material prosperity but our moral influence in the world will depend to an unpredictable degree on our success in solving our economic problems and building up our strength. We are all agreed about that.
  We should, therefore, this week be looking ahead and devising the pattern on which our economic and social life will be woven in the next decade. For a moment I should like to draw attention to one or two disturbing features which have developed in the last few years and which, with the right hon. Gentleman in command for the next four years, are likely to develop still further.
  The first of these disturbing trends I have already referred to—the growing inequality in our society. The gap, not only between rich and poor, but between the very rich and the average householder has widened, is still widening, and ought to be diminished.
  I have already referred to the treatment of the old and disabled and I have described the system of fiscal privilege which has grown up. Not only income, but wealth and economic power are becoming more and more concentrated in fewer hands. We have seen the movement towards monopoly, with mergers and take-over bids reported almost daily. We see the inordinate capital gains which accrue to those who have substantial holdings in equity shares or in land. We have seen some of the details of the squalid property deals of recent months. As certain of these are sub judice, I cannot refer today to any of the features to which, in other circumstances, it would be my duty to refer.
  Apart from those, vast fortunes can be made by financiers who add not one jot of wealth or productive power to the nation, at the expense of tenants and other productive workers. A few moments ago I gave some representative figures of

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  capital gains. It will be clear that even in the most representative, the least spectacular, cases the growth of unearned wealth through capital gains from generation to generation goes far beyond the equalising effects of Estate Duty which falls only once in a generation, even on the somewhat unrealistic assumption that Estate Duty is not avoided by the usual methods. In any period of economic expansion—and we are all looking forward to continued expansion—there is a law of increasing returns to the rich; of an increased proportion of newly produced wealth accruing to the owners of property, whether in equity shares or land.
  The second theme is the way in which, more and more, productive industry is being subordinated to finance. It is a recurring theme of our economic policy. We see it in the take-over bids, where efficient but prudent managements have to stand back looking over their shoulders at unproductive financial groups who come in and take them over.
  We see it in the redevelopment of the nation's productive resources. For example, in terms of manpower from June, 1955, to December, 1959, while the numbers employed in production, that is, manufacturing, mining and agricultural, fell over the last four and a half years by 6,000, the numbers employed in the group known as "professional, financial and miscellaneous", rose by 207,000.
  We see it in the figures of bank lending since the end of the credit squeeze. Advances to industry rose by 22 per cent.; to stockbrokers, hire-purchase finance companies, "Other Financial" and "Personal and Professional"—much of it for Stock Exchange speculation—by nearly 60 per cent. The Chancellor, by allowing taxpayers to offset interest on overdrafts incurred for, perhaps, speculation against their taxable income, is conniving at the process.
  We see it, too, in the commanding position which the Stock Exchange, in my view wrongly, once again occupies in the economy, with a totally unjustified and often harmful influence over productive industry. I would quote to hon. Members some wise words written twenty years ago:
  "The volume of credit and the quantity of money should be regulated in accordance with
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  the needs of the productive system and not dominated by irrational and anti-social speculation in the fluctuating value of securities. The proper function of the Stock Exchange is, as its name implies, to facilitate the exchange of stocks and shares for cash. A method must be found which will enable this useful function to be performed while at the same time abolishing the frenzied speculation which has such evil disturbing consequences of the productive system".
  Those words were taken from page 257 of "The Middle Way" by the present Prime Minister, and was published in 1937 by Macmillan and Co.
  I will not follow the Prime Minister in his contumacious reference to the Stock Exchange as a "casino", or his disruptive suggestion that the Stock Exchange be by-passed by a newly created investment board for all shares except those of new firms. For hon. Gentlemen opposite the commanding heights of the economy are and should be in the City, and in private hands. In our view, they should be within the control of the community and accountable to it. That is why I said the Chancellor's reference to the hiving-off of some of the profitable parts of the State-owned steel industry would be bitterly contested.
  The third development to which I would draw attention is the growing practice of financing private industry out of State funds. The right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir. W. Churchill), in his famous panegyric on the Conservative Party, forty-two years ago, referred to "the open hand at the Treasury", but even he could not have foreseen the arrival of a Government which have established themselves as a public assistance committee for mendicant capitalism.
  In recent debates hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have expressed their anxieties about both the scale and the manner of some of these subsidies and loans. I will not, therefore, repeat these arguments, but I ought to mention what some Members may have missed, the alarming statement made during the election by the then President of the Board of Trade, now the Minister of Education, when speaking in Lancashire. He proudly boasted in Lancashire that the £30 million he had asked the House to provide for cotton would not be enough. He said that it would cost £50 million to £60 million, but he had not dared to tell the House

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  it would cost that sum or he would not have got it. In other words, he admitted misleading the House in asking for this big sum. I have the right hon. Gentleman's exact words, which show the utter contempt with which Ministers treat the House in matters of public expenditure.
  In this, as in so many other directions, the Government are standing the economic system on its head. The traditional position is that local authorities are free to borrow from the Treasury while private enterprise borrows from the market. Under this Government local authorities are forced on to the market on unfavourable terms while private concerns are encouraged to come and borrow from the Treasury.
  Fourthly, I would draw attention to the growing "Americanisation" of our economy. We all welcome increased consumption and a rise in the standard of living. Indeed, this party has fought for these things for ordinary families for sixty years. But in some respects, as in the United States, our real productive strength, and the means of further expansion in the shape of capital investment, are now being sacrificed to sheer frivolities. They are frivolities called forth not by what the consumer wants, but by the lunacies of the advertising agents, who then go to fantastic lengths, at great expense, to persuade the consumer that those are the goods he or she really wants.
  How many of the scientists we need are misdirected into these irrelevancies? I ask hon. Members: are they really satisfied with a scale of values under which, as a nation, we are spending more on advertising than on industrial research, more on packaging than on education, more on the egg subsidies than on the universities?
  Finally, I ask hon. Members to consider how all these developments that I have mentioned can be said to be strengthening the basic economy of the country as it must be strengthened if we are to meet the challenge from abroad, especially the formidable scientific, educational, technological and industrial challenge from the Soviet Union. I ask them to consider how the excesses of speculation, the take-over bids, the property deals, the subordination of industry to finance, the misdeployment of our scientists and the development of an
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  economy dominated more by the advertising agent than the productive engineer, all measure up to the purposive challenge from abroad.
  Soviet production is increasing at a rate of at least 10 per cent. per annum against our five-year average of 2 per cent., and a much higher proportion of what we produce is irrelevant to the challenge of the age. Four per cent. of our national income goes to education, against 10 per cent. in Russia. If these basic trends are allowed to go un-corrected over the next decade—and the Chancellor yesterday showed no awareness of these problems—there is a real danger that our civilisation will be shaped in a way that can lead only to national decadence and a loss of our moral influence in the world.
  The one hope for Britain lies in the reasonable assumption that before the 1960s are half over, an election different in its result from the last will ensure that these dangerous trends are reversed.
  4.51 p.m.
  The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Reginald Maudling): I have had several opportunities of following the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) in these debates and it is always interesting to try to anticipate what line of argument he will pursue. Once or twice in the past, he has been guilty of inconsistency, as when last year, he accused us of an election Budget and, at the same time, accused us of a Budget that distributed its favours as narrowly as possible.
  This time, I thought that the right hon. Gentleman might be a little torn between the two possibilities of accusing my right hon. Friend of being a skinflint Chancellor and planting on his brow the kiss of death. On the whole, the right hon. Gentleman chose the latter, because throughout his speech he was very careful, as was the Daily Herald this morning, not to criticise the Budget in any way. Clearly, hon. Members opposite have come to the conclusion that, as a matter of political tactics, it is better for them to praise the Budget than to criticise it. Those tactics will prove to be a little naïve when hon. Members opposite come to work it out.
  The right hon. Gentleman's speech was composed of two parts. In the first, he went a long way to confirm his

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  reputation as our best financial jester. In the second half, he ventured on some fairly serious arguments. In reply to the right hon. Gentleman, I will take up both his political challenge and the remarks made yesterday by the Leader of the Opposition about the election. I shall refer to those remarks later, because they were of interest, and also to the remarks made by the right hon. Member for Huyton about the position of our economy.
  First, let me say one or two things about the developments of the last twelve months. This year, unlike previous years, the right hon. Gentleman did not pay the same amount of attention as he usually does to the development of the economy, for the fairly clear reason that during the last twelve months developments have been very satisfactory. In January and February, production was 11 per cent. higher than a year ago. Investment was 4½ per cent. higher than last year and 46 per cent. higher than in 1951, when the party opposite was in power. If the right hon. Gentleman wants any knowledge of what has been holding back investment, he should look at the change in business intentions before and after the General Election. That is a clear sign of why there has been any damper on recent investment.
  Then, look at the unemployment position. [HON. MEMBERS: "What about Scotland?"] I will come to the position of particular areas. As the right hon. Gentleman is so often fond of comparing the production position in this country with what it is in other countries, as he did today, he should also compare the unemployment position, in which our record stands second to none. [HON. MEMBERS: "Not in Scotland."] During 1959, the number of employed rose by 350,000. The latest figures of unemployed are 138,000 fewer than in March, 1959.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: The right hon. Gentleman is not speaking of Scotland.
  Mr. Maudling: I have often heard that Scotland is in a different situation from the rest of the United Kingdom. If the hon. Member will compose himself in patience a little longer, I hope to refer to that.
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  Prices, which apply throughout the United Kingdom, have been stable since April, 1958. In January and February this year, exports were 18 per cent. higher than twelve months ago. There is an even greater increase in the North American market, the most competitive of all. The right hon. Gentleman once again referred to the fact that our share of the world market in manufactured goods was falling. That figure, however, can be misleading. The most important figure is what is our competitive position, and in the most competitive markets of all, the markets of North America, we have been increasing our share of the market. I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman would have been happy to see that happen.
  Last year, savings showed an increase of 15 per cent. on 1958, even after taking into account the great increase in hire-purchase lending. As for profits, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, it is true that they were 11 per cent. higher. He did not mention that they were down by 5 per cent. the year before. That is a small point that must have escaped his attention.
  I agree that gross dividends were 13 per cent. higher, but what the right hon. Gentleman forgets once again is that from the profits of industry we find a substantial source both of revenue and of savings, which again this year has been reflected in the state of the national economy. This year's proposals by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will provide a considerable strengthening of the Exchequer when next year comes.
  Then, there is the question of the balance of payments. It is true that the surplus in the balance of payments fell last year. There are reasons for that. In the first place, there was a considerable degree of stocking up. In the second place, we have very large markets in the overseas sterling area and it will not have escaped the right hon. Gentleman's attention that last year the imports of the sterling area fell, whereas the imports of many European countries were rising. Naturally, therefore, with our best customers recovering more slowly than the rest of the world, it is not surprising that our exports have risen less rapidly than in the case of some of our Continental neighbours.

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  That is the story of progress in the last twelve months. That progress was due in no small measure to my right hon. Friend's Budget of 1959. Neither the right hon. Gentleman nor the Leader of the Opposition opposed at that time the general scale of tax reliefs that were proposed. All that they said was that we should have done more and should have done it sooner.
  The prospects for 1960 and 1961 are, clearly, a further vigorous expansion of trade, business and prosperity. Consumption, investment and exports are all likely to expand. The difference between now and 1959 is that we do not have the same amount of spare capacity that we had a year ago. It is certainly true of some parts of the country and of some parts of industry. That is one of the problems. We have a shortage of labour in the Midlands and the South and substantial and serious unemployment in Scotland and other areas. Similarly, there is a shortage of light sections of rod and wire, but a plentiful supply of beams and heavy steel products. That is one of the problems we must solve.
  By the Local Employment Act, and by our help for the expansion of the steel sheet industry, we are trying to find ways and means of spreading out the capacity so that we do not get this imbalance between shortages in one area and surpluses in another. By and large, however, the fact is that our resources will be fully employed in the expansion that will take place anyway without any further stimulus from the Exchequer. Therefore, any net tax reductions would create demand in excess of the available resources. This can only be reflected, inevitably, in rising prices and in a strain on our balance of payments.
  We have now had more than a year of vigorous expansion and stable prices. It would be folly to cast away that stability by trying to push that expansion one degree too far. Surely the lesson of the past year, or the lessons of recent years, must be that a tough Budget, if we like to call it that, or a restraining Budget or a fortifying Budget—or whatever we call it—is indeed a small price to pay for stable prices and a strong balance of payments.
  Of course, our balance of payments is a considerable problem to us. Since the war our reserves have never been really
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  adequate for their purpose and our capital payments, particularly to overseas territories, are rising all the time. Therefore, we must constantly watch our balance of payments for, if home demand gets too high, goods will be diverted from the export market to the home market as we can see from the example of chemicals, steel and one or two other things. A diversion from the export market is bound to affect the export trade.
  Similarly, on the home market. If the home market demand is too high, we shall suck in more imports from abroad. Surely in this day and age there can be no doubt that excessive home demand is a deterrent to the export trade and the main danger to our balance of payments Therefore, I submit that my right hon Friend was absolutely right in calculating that it would be wrong, both on the ground of the need for stable prices and on the ground of the need for fortifying the balance of payments, to add in any way to purchasing power by his Budget.
  If that argument be accepted, the degree of tax relief which can be given, and the level of taxation itself, is fixed by the level of Government expenditure. This rise in expenditure faces us all in this Committee with grave problems from which no one in the Committee, or the Government, or in the country, should seek to shrink. Let us look at some of the main items of increased expenditure above the line—defence, education, health, National Assistance, local employment, roads and universities. Below the line, if anything, expenditure has declined. But in addition, of course, we must add the burden on the balance of payments of very substantially increased aid to overseas territories. All these items of increased expenditure are things which people have agreed are good and in the national interest.
  I said that expenditure below the line next year on the estimates will in fact be less than last year. It is above the line that the increase—
  Mr. Nabarro: Because it is below the line and because it happens to be less than the year before does not in any way vitiate the argument of many of my hon. Friends and myself that expenditure on the nationalised industries, uncontrolled by the House of Commons, is very unsavoury.
  Mr. Maudling: It is wrong to say that the expenditure is uncontrolled. Whether it is fully or properly controlled, obviously, is a thing which needs discussion and thought. I agree with that. But to say that it is uncontrolled is quite wrong.
  For the sake of the party opposite I will draw a veil over the question of defence expenditure, because after the last debate on defence we can well imagine that we should get less defence but certainly no less expenditure from them, and that is quite clear.
  Education, roads and the financing of local employment are, of course, essential investments in our economy and necessary to put us in the position to earn in the future the revenue and wealth which we ought to earn. The social services and the increased overseas aid we provide are a recognition of the moral duty to help those people in this country and other countries who have been left behind following the rising tide of general consumption.
  All these items of expenditure are individually justifiable, but I think that what we and the country have to face are the consequences of this growing expenditure, urged on us from all sides, when looked at as a single sum. This expenditure has been urged on us from all sides as individual items, and not in a single sum, I agree; but the problem is essentially the lack of correlation between claims for spending on individual desirable items and the total bill as it is presented to the taxpayer. That is the fundamental problem at present facing the Exchequer.
  Regarding the question of expenditure, though there may be grounds for critical examination, it certainly does not lie in the mouths of hon. Members opposite to criticise after what they said at the General Election. I listened with interest to what the Leader of the Opposition said yesterday in his account of the General Election. I thought it was rather like putting a looking glass before us—Alice in the looking glass. I fear that the strain of the last few weeks has caused the right hon. Gentleman to lose his grip on his logic as well as his party, which is not altogether surprising. The right hon. Gentleman said
  "In a sense the point we have been making has been proved. It is clear that if we have
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  an expansion, if we have a rapid rise in income and a rapid rise in production … we get a rise in revenue at the same time."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 77.]
  That is precisely the point we made at the election—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] —precisely, that the natural growth of revenue would be committed to the natural growth of expenditure upon the schemes to which I have just been referring.
  We said, time and again, that the natural growth of revenue is mortgaged to existing expenditure which, by and large, the party opposite supported and asked us to increase. It was on top of that natural growth of expenditure that they wanted to pile the hundreds of millions which they cast before the electorate at the last election.
  Mr. H. Wilson: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain the figures used by the Home Secretary, and which I quoted, when the right hon. Gentleman said that the natural growth of revenue would leave the Chancellor with only £85 million for financing increased expenditure. Seeing that the Chancellor is financing £323 million, apart from the extra demand below the line, will the right hon. Gentleman reconcile that with the statement made by the Home Secretary?
  Mr. Maudling: The facts are even stronger than the argument of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. The natural growth of expenditure has absorbed the natural increase in revenue, which is the point I was making.
  While on the subject of the last election, I should like to refer to something else which was said yesterday by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, when he talked about General Elections and Budgets and said that when a General Election is impending,
  "we always have an easy Budget, with plenty of tax concessions, but, as soon as the election is over, then the Chancellor of the Exchequer gets tough with the taxpayers and tough with the country."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 76.]
  Let us examine this charge for a moment. When my right hon. Friend introduced his Budget last year he made a very large reduction in taxation and the party opposite said that he was

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  absolutely right to do so. They did not challenge that in any way. They said that my right hon. Friend was right to have a so-called easy Budget at that time. Surely it is not suggested by the party opposite that my right hon. Friend should keep taxation higher than it ought to be or keep the figure of unemployment higher than it need be because he might have some fortuitous advantage at the election. Even the right hon. Gentleman would not rise to those heights of altruism.
  So, on last year's Budget, there was no objection to the extension of taxation reliefs and on this year's Budget there is no objection to no extension of tax relief. Neither the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition nor the right hon. Member for Huyton objected, and neither is there any objection to it in the article in the Daily Herald. Is it suggested that my right hon. Friend was wrong in having what is called a tough Budget now? If it is agreed that it was right to have an easy Budget before and a tough Budget now, what is the basis of the charge that there should have been an easier Budget?
  Mr. Hugh Gaitskell: The right hon. Gentleman has not in anything he has said disproved what I said yesterday, namely, that before an election we have an easy Budget and after an election we have a tough Budget. Of course, we did not oppose what was done last year. What we said was that it should have been done long before, so that we would have got rid of unemployment long before.
  Mr. Maudling: The right hon. Gentleman has confirmed my point. He agrees with last year's Budget. If he thought we were too easy, why did not he say so before the election? He did not say so. He agrees with this year's Budget; he thinks it right to be tough. If he thought we were wrong to be tough why did not his right hon. Friend say so? He cannot have it both ways. He cannot have the benefit of agreeing with us and the advantage of criticising us.
  Mr. Gaitskell: The right hon. Gentleman had better try to answer this. Why is it that a Conservative Government allowed production to languish and unemployment to increase until within a few months of the General Election and
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  then proceeded to let up? Then they had a boom and an expansion for everybody with the hope that they would be returned, and immediately they got back into office they clamped down with heavy taxation.
  Mr. Maudling: I dealt with that clearly in my speech on the Budget last year, answering precisely the same point as that made by the right hon. Member for Huyton. We do not believe in rushing ahead as fast as they did and running back into another period of inflation and a balance of payments crisis. With the present strain on the economy, what position should we be in now and what sort of Budget should we have to introduce now, if we had followed the advice of the party opposite before the election and even during the election? I do not think they have any status to intervene in this argument.
  Mr. Arthur Holt: May I refer back to what impressed me as an important statement of policy when the right hon. Gentleman said that the natural increase in revenue was mortgaged to the natural increase in expenditure so that things were already balanced? Does he really mean this? This seems to imply that we cannot hope for any cuts in taxation by this Government while they are in office.
  Mr. Maudling: If that were always so, what the hon. Gentleman has suggested would be true. But I was talking about the position last autumn and so was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huyton. I agree that if the natural increases in revenue were always mortgaged to the natural increase of expenditure then the outlook for tax reduction would be poor. That is why it is so important that my right hon. Friend should concentrate on controlling expenditure and on another source of tax relief, increasing savings, which is too often forgotten in this context.
  The point I was making was that, while there may be scope for criticism of the level of expenditure at the moment, that criticism does not lie in the mouth of right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Of course, when the party opposite was in these election difficulties, that did it a certain amount of harm, at any rate, according to the hon. Gentleman the

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  Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman). If I may quote him, he said, in one of his unusual moments of candour, that:
  "These tax pledges were an advantage to the Tories. It gave them the chance to accuse us of election bribes. I am afraid it is true that our own defensive about Income Tax and Purchase Tax undermined in some way the image we had built up about the integrity of the party."
  I think that was a very fair assessment of the position. The right hon. Member for Huyton has always come to the aid of his leader, and he tried to help him in the election campaign by producing arguments which he has produced again this afternoon about taxing expenses and capital gains.
  They are not arguments worthy of a financial expert of the type which we know the right hon. Gentleman is when he really tries. During the election there was some discussion about how much could be obtained from taxing business expenses. In one speech, the Leader of the Opposition said that we could get £100 million from this, and, in another speech, he said that this was not a major item in their programme. In a programme on his scale I am not surprised that it would not be a major item.
  The question of business expenses is grossly exaggerated. When Sir Stafford Cripps tightened up business expenses in 1948, he reckoned on getting an additional £250,000, and he was no mean expert in tightening the screw when he thought that it was right to do so. The new measures which my right hon. Friend has properly introduced this year will not produce any increase in revenue next year. In some cases they are designed to prevent opening the gate to a large flood of tax avoidance. In others it is a question of maintaining a sense of fairness between taxpayer and taxpayer, which, I think, everyone agrees is the basis of the taxation system. But to suggest that from this source could be obtained the vast sums of money which hon. Members opposite talk about—
  Mr. H. Wilson: The right hon. Gentleman apparently still supports the estimate of £250,000 from the tax avoidance drive. Does he or does he not agree that one of his right hon. Friends admitted a loss of £12 million in a single
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  year from tax avoidance alone? Does he or does he not agree with the figure of £40 million for Treasury subsidised drinks without taking account of other expenses?
  Mr. Maudling: I saw the article in which the figure quoted by the right hon. Member appeared, but I am not sure that I accept the accuracy of it or the implication. I also saw the article in the Observer, which no doubt the right hon. Gentleman also saw, on the question of tax avoidance and the question of income returns by companies and individuals, and, as I thought he would probably raise this in his speech, I took the trouble to get advice on the accuracy of it. I am assured that the figures which the right hon. Gentleman quoted in the article and which he repeated this afternoon have not been fully understood, and so the conclusions are largely misleading. I am not altogether surprised. Of the so-called one-man companies, in the case of about 50,000 the trading surplus goes on the salaries of directors and not as profits at all. They are taxed on that basis. That is the whole point. In addition, the lowest range includes several thousand small clubs, with quite trivial trading activities, which make no profits at all. Those are the sort of facts which one must look at with great care before accepting figures at their face value.
  Mr. Wilson: I did not take the figures from the Observer but from the Financial Times and the report of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the deductions that I drew from those figures were taken from prominent tax experts and indeed from the association representing the employees in the Board of Inland Revenue? That is where I got the deductions from.
  Mr. Maudling: I know that the right hon. Gentleman always thinks of everything before any one else. He has told us this six times this afternoon. He thought of it first. I took the precaution, assuming the right hon. Gentleman would take the trouble to quote these figures to get the best information from the officials who advise us and who are in the position to get that information.
  The other point which the right hon. Gentleman raised was the so-called capital gains tax. How much money

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  does the party opposite think could be obtained from the capital gains tax? When this came up, the Royal Commission accepted an estimate of some £50 million a year. I know that the minority Report said that it was more, but I prefer to accept the majority Report as more likely to be accurate. This was not taking into account any offsetting effect of savings and investment. I cannot imagine anything having a more serious effect on savings or investment than a swingeing tax or capital levy.
  Mr. John Cronin: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman wants to be fair to the Committee. These figures of the majority Report of the Royal Commission which he gave us were based on the last thirty years or so, which included one of the largest slumps in history, which is not likely to be repeated in the future, so that the figure given by the majority Report of about £250 million is much nearer the mark.
  Mr. Maudling: If I understand correctly the figure of £50 million was given by the Inland Revenue, which is pretty good on these things, and I accept that figure. I am prepared to stand on that.
  So far as the actual Budget proposals are concerned, I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman had much criticism to make, and therefore I do not need to enter into any long discussion on that.
  I think that the Income Tax and postwar credits reliefs are modest but will be extremely welcome to a large number of people. I think that the assistance given to savings, both by improvement in the National Savings Movement and the Estate Duty changes, are more important than has been realised, and that this assistance to savings will be of very considerable benefit in easing the strain on the economy in the coming year. I was surprised at the point of view of the Leader of the Opposition who seemed to think that if I gave my son a gift of money I was trying to avoid death duties. I think that that is a retrograde point of view. I must warn my son the next time that he has his pocket money it is really an avoidance of death duties.
  The right hon. Gentleman was talking yesterday as if any gifts were an evasion of Estate Duty. That has been a point of view which has, I think, often been held by the other side of the Committee
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  and is one which we on this side of the Committee do not agree with.
  Concerning the new revenue, the reasons for having some additional revenue have been rehearsed fairly fully. This is part of the general need to protect the stability of prices and to fortify the balance of payments. I think that in looking for new revenue my right hon. Friend was right to turn to tobacco. It is a commodity which, by and large, is imported across the exchanges and this is an impost which is spread pretty widely across the community. Althougn it is an amenity to many people, it cannot be described as a necessity, and it is certainly an item which will yield an increase in revenue because consumption continues steadily to rise.
  As for the proposal for Profits Tax, which I think is rightly based on the buoyancy of profits generally, we are facing these increasing bills for social services, education and aid overseas. It is of great importance to the future economy and stability of the country. In meeting these bills my right hon. Friend is right to turn to the sector of the economy where there is considerable buoyancy of income.
  I do not think that the Profits Tax will have any effect at all on the level of industrial investments which is at the moment buoyant and high and very encouraging. I think that the level of industrial investment will be determined not by the Profits Tax level or the Bank Rate but by the manufacturers' prospects of selling their products. I think that they will be more certain of their future prospects when they see a Budget which is cautious and prudent of the type introduced by my right hon. Friend yesterday.
  One final argument is whether my right hon. Friend has been severe enough. There are those who say, and who will say, that he should have been more severe.
  Mr. Nabarro: Not me.
  Mr. Maudling: There are other points of view, less important, no doubt, than that of my hon. Friend, but nevertheless worthy of consideration.
  There will be those who will say that my right hon. Friend could have been more severe, and if they do they should specify in what way. It is very difficult to calculate exactly the way the economy

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  will go in the next year. Even the Economist was saying last week:
  "The psuedo-science of quantitative forecasting is subject to far too wide a margin of error."
  I must say that we humbler mortals entirely agree with that. There are so many imponderables. There are the sales in the sterling area, the extent to which the labour force can expand, the rate of savings, and the position in Europe which is very hard to predict at the moment. All these things cannot be exactly weighed and provided for.
  My right hon. Friend had to form a judgment in producing this Budget with its moderate degree of restraint on the economy. People may say that he should have erred on the side of caution, but that assumes that all caution is on one side, that there are risks only on one side, which is just not true. It is certainly important to avoid the danger of inflation, but I do not think that anyone can estimate mathematically how much of a surplus one needs to avoid inflation or deflation. There is the danger, as hon. Members opposite have said, of the shock to confidence which must be avoided, and which my right hon. Friend has avoided.
  For some time now we have had expansion without inflation. We have had record investment and record savings. We want all these things to continue. They can continue and they will continue so long as confidence remains. I think that everyone can see the need to moderate the rate of advance, not to check it, and to fit it in with the resources of the country. But a sharp check at this stage would have serious effects. Hence the desire of my right hon. Friend to fortify the economy, not to accelerate it or to impose a sharp check.
  As my right hon. Friend made clear, he is ready to act upon the growth of private credit if he feels that should be necessary. Therefore, I think that it is difficult to sustain the argument that my right hon. Friend was not severe enough. Had he been too severe he would have fallen into a danger just as serious as the danger which was threatened from the other flank.
  Mr. G. R. Mitchison: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. We have all enjoyed his
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  excursion into Treasury matters, but would he inquire from his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade why it was necessary to concede nearly £4 million to lower the prices of port, champagne and other wines while doing nothing for council housing and old-age pensioners?
  Mr. Maudling: I will certainly talk to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, but if the hon. and learned Gentleman will be good enough to read my right hon. Friend's speech yesterday he will see the reason.
  Mr. Mitchison rose—
  Mr. Maudling: My right hon. Friend dealt with this matter yesterday perfectly clearly and he gave exactly the reason why the change has been made. If the hon. and learned Gentleman cares to pursue the matter in Committee no doubt he will be able to do so, but perhaps he will first read what my right hon. Friend said.
  Mr. Mitchison rose—
  The Temporary Chairman (Dr. Horace King): If the right hon. Gentleman does not take his seat, the hon. and learned Gentleman cannot speak.
  Mr. Maudling: I have really answered the point; I have given way quite a lot in the course of my speech, and have endeavoured to deal with all the points raised.
  The argument that I have tried to make is that my right hon. Friend had to reach a difficult judgment in the matter. To have remitted taxation now would have been to add to the expansion of the economy, to add to the danger of rising prices and to add to the danger to the balance of payments. That would have been wrong. On the other hand, to have imposed a severe check would have been a blow to confidence which might have created just as serious dangers. Therefore, I think that in producing this Budget of moderate restraint on the growth of consumption and in the distribution of his reliefs of taxation and his additional charges my right hon. Friend has met exactly the requirements of the economy. Nothing that has been said from the benches opposite has thrown the slightest shadow of doubt on that.
  5.24 p.m.
  Mr. John Diamond: It is my duty, following the right hon. Gentle-ment the President of the Board of Trade, to pick out and to attempt to controvert some of the arguments he has used. I find this especially difficult because the right hon. Gentleman devoted between two-thirds and three-quarters of his speech to fighting the General Election all over again. He may have been stimulated into doing this, but it does not help us very much in attempting to enter into a serious debate, the most serious economic debate of the year. Instead of giving us a great deal of information, which no doubt the right hon. Gentleman has got, and helping the Committee to understand the position a good deal beter, he proceeded to fight once more the General Election which he has already won. He is already in office and he is there, no doubt, for five years to come. It is better to make these fighting speeches when we get nearer to the date of the next election.
  The majority of us are more concerned with facing the difficulties which lie ahead. That is what I regard as my responsibility. I will not atempt to deal even with the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that death duties relate to pocket money given to one's children. I do not think that that is a level of debate worthy of an answer at all.
  As to the general level of the Budget, I do not dissent from what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I agree that, by and large, the Chancellor has acted sensibly in not over-stimulating the economy and in not placing too large a restraint upon it. I go further. I do not accept the view that it is the Chancellor's duty every year to bring forward a multiplicity of tax increases and tax allowances in order to demonstrate that he is aware of his responsibilities. I should have thought that he ought to claim for himself, and I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman did not do so, the greatest credit. Surely the best evidence that the economy is running more or less as we would like to see it is that the Chancellor has the least to do at Budget time and that, therefore, the Finance Bill is the smallest and not the largest. To my mind it is not a valid argument to say that in order to prove that one is a clever Chancellor doing what the nation
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  requires one should introduce a mass of new taxes.
  I repeat that I welcome a good deal of what the Chancellor said yesterday with regard to his proposals. I welcome the abolition of the cinema tax. It is true that this dreadful two-year lag seems to apply as much under this Government as it did under the Labour Government. When one makes a speech, and if one has the good fortune to have an idea which commends itself to the Government, it always takes two years to go through the machine and to come back in the form of a Budget Resolution. The pity about it is that all these cinemas have closed. Not all, of course, would have remained open had this been done, but the need for this to be done was, if anything, greater two years ago than it is today. Nevertheless, we must not look a gilt horse in the mouth, and I welcome what the Chancellor has done in removing the remains of the cinema tax— which is called Entertainments Duty, but refers exclusively to cinemas.
  I welcome everything he has done in anti-tax-avoidance measures. I am in great difficulty here because, two years ago, we were exactly in this position at the same time in our Budget debates and, stupid man that I am, what did I do? I congratulated the Chancellor and said that he needed the support of this side of the Committee because he would get into trouble from his own back benchers and he could rely on us for support. That was in regard to retrospective legislation in relation to dividend stripping. The Chancellor was got at by his own back benchers.
  Mr. Nabarro: And he will be got at again.
  Mr. Diamond: He committed the big-gest folly he has over committed. Having come forward with anti-tax-avoidance measures, he took the most unwise step of going back on them and it was much worse than if he had never put them forward.
  Mr. Nabarro rose—
  Mr. Diamond: I know that the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) wishes to interrupt me, but he should give me a little time. I hope that this history will not repeat itself. Therefore, I want to make it quite clear to the Chancellor that I am not in favour of

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  what he is doing because I do not think he has gone half far enough. I hope that, if I make it plain that he has not gone half far enough, we shall not have the same unfortunate results as last time.
  Mr. Nabarro: If the hon. Member will be fair in his analogy, he will immediately recognise that the item of retrospection proposed in the present Budget involves a decision made earlier by courts of law and is not in any way concerned with tax avoidance. The reversing of a decision made by a court of law is a very serious matter indeed.
  Mr. Diamond: The hon. Member for Kidderminster should not regard it as absolutely essential that every time I get to my feet he must interrupt me every five minutes, as he has done on previous occasions. If he has not understood, I am sure the rest of the Committee has understood that in referring to anti-tax-avoidance measures I am not referring to a particular matter which no doubt will be dealt with in a particular Clause of the Finance Bill. I am not talking about the necessity to see that encouragement is given to pay taxes, but that encouragement is given not to avoid paying taxes.
  This is important at this stage because, two years ago, we were in exactly the same position and the wheels were turned so that the vehicle was driven the other way. That is the last thing I want to happen. Therefore, I endorse everything that was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson). The Chancellor is to be congratulated for going so far as he proposes in these measures, but he has a great deal further to go before he will give satisfaction to this side of the Committee—and certainly to me, and I am the only person on whose behalf I can speak.
  I am absolutely astonished that, in spite of the great steps forward the Chancellor has made, he saw fit to give another encouragement to tax avoidance by the steps he is proposing in relation to gifts inter vivos. It is so evident to all of us that death duties are an almost archaic tax. Death duties are something which no one pays unless there has been negligence and provision has not been made for themselves; or if, perhaps, late in life, a widow is left a large sum of money by her husband and does not
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  know what to do about it, and so leaves it in her own possession, then, when she dies, a suitable proportion goes to the Chancellor. I cannot understand why, against the generally admirable frame of mind in which he has approached the whole matter, the Chancellor should start to turn precisely the other way. I cannot understand why these figures are so small.
  I do not understand how it comes about that with this very large reduction he is proposing to make—speaking offhand, I think it is 60 per cent. for five-year inter vivos gifts—the estimate he has been provided with is so small. There is only one possible conclusion which I would accept. Very few leave it to as late as five years before they die before making appropriate settlements.
  Mr. C. Osborne: What about the Duke of Devonshire?
  Mr. Diamond: There are individual cases of bad luck. They hit the headlines and everybody knows about them, but what is not known is that by taking wise precautions property can be passed on before it becomes the estate of the deceased person. That must be done well before the five years. I hope that when this point comes up in the Finance Bill we shall examine it most carefully and get an explanation why there is such a small amount.
  When we come to the Finance Bill it will be appropriate to deal with the details of the anti-tax-avoidance measures proposed. The Chancellor is a patently honest man and obviously believes what he tells us. My difficulty is that I cannot accept what he believes. The figures the Chancellor has given us from time to time as to the scale of tax avoidance I am unable to accept—quite unable to accept. I am bound to come to the conclusion, therefore, that there is an enormous time lag between the time when he gets the information as to the scale and the amount of tax avoidance and the time when those who practise in this field become aware of it. It is very obvious that often this time lag is deliberate. Those who are on to a good thing take care to see that the appropriate repayment of tax which generally follows from such an activity is not put before the Revenue until all their friends are in on it and so a great deal of time has gone by.

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  Therefore, I make the suggestion for the consideration of the Chancellor that he should endeavour to find some method of bridging this time gap. I am sure he believes his figures and gives them as honestly as he can, but I am sure they are wrong. I am sure that the information on which they are based is not sufficiently wide or up to date. Therefore, he might consider having a sort of tax advisory committee. Obviously we cannot set up a Royal Commission on Taxation every year, but we should have some sort of advisory committee on which there would be representatives of a variety of interests all anxious about one thing, to see that the honest citizen pays his fair share of tax and that the dishonest citizen is prevented from paying less than his fair share. That Committee should bring information to the Chancellor of what is going on because, I repeat, I cannot see how it comes about that the Chancellor is always so late and so inadequate in his figures.
  I do not want to rub salt into wounds, but this dividend stripping has been going on for so long and the Chancellor and the present Solicitor-General have time after time said, "It is all over now. We have done everything that needs to be done. Nothing needs to be done now. We have closed every possible loophole."
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Derick Heathcoat Amory): No.
  Mr. Diamond: Yes. The Solicitor-General used almost those words on the alteration of the Finance Bill. Of course, it needed to be done the next year and this year and, in other ways, it will have to be done year after year. The Chancellor has finally been persuaded to adopt a method of anti-tax-avoidance which is not very acceptable to anyone in this Committee. The decision as to whether a transaction was a bona fide transaction or a tax avoidance transaction is to be left to the Inland Revenue Commissioners. He has been forced to this because of the extent of tax avoidance. I repeat that there are schemes and systems going around by which, in my view, if every single honest business man were prepared to adopt the methods used by others, there would be no Schedule D payable worth collecting in two years' time.
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  I am satisfied with the extent of the Chancellor's provisions to deal with possible avoidance—I do not refer to evasion which obviously goes on in all those businesses earning negligible profits and where there is clearly an understatement of profits. I am referring to the methods available for converting taxable profit under Schedule D into non-taxable capital gains as a result of share dealings and so on.
  The Chancellor must by now be convinced that the information which he has had from time to time, when his statements have been inadequate to the occasion, must have been at least inaccurate in the sense that it was behind the times. I hope that he will consider some form of committee whereby he can keep himself more currently advised about what is going on in those circles where tax avoidance is regarded as more important than earning wealth and providing the services which the country needs.
  I turn from those provisions, which I welcome as far as they go, while saying that they do not go far enough, to the economic scene. I want first to congratulate the Chancellor on having for all practical purposes maintained stability in prices over the whole year. That is important to all of us, and all of us should recognise it. I am only sorry that the Chancellor did not give full recognition where recognition is due. I am only sorry that in his speech yesterday—and I am sure that he will take the earliest opportunity to amend it—he did not say that he was grateful and the country was grateful to the workers who have made a contribution, if not the major contribution, to price stability throughout the year.
  I want to make that clear, because I think that it has escaped the attention of hon. Members opposite and most of the Press who spend their time talking about strikes of one kind and another and how the wage-earners have gone after more and more wages. At the risk of keeping the Committee for a few minutes, I will read two sentences from page 9 of the Economic Survey. Referring to the year 1959, the Economic Survey says:
  "It was also one in which the increase in productivity was larger than the increase in earnings so that there was a fall in labour costs per unit of output."

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  Two lines further on is the second sentence:
  "In 1959 there was a rise in profits per unit of output …."
  Those are the two outstanding phrases of the Economic Survey. They put into perspective all our debates about wages and strikes and all the Chancellor's onesided appeals for restraint in wages. I say "one-sided" because it is only very recently and in one of his most attractively modest and restrained ways that the Chancellor has been appealing for restraint in dividends. That is not sufficient. I agree that he has appealed for restraint in prices.
  Mr. Amory: The hon. Member always tries to be scrupulously fair in these matters. I ask him, if he can bear it, to look back at my speeches, when he will see that, whenever I have mentioned wages, I have nearly always mentioned profits at the same time and 'the need for restraint in both.
  Mr. Diamond: We had this interlude last year when, unfortunately, the Chancellor did not mention it once in his Budget speech. It is my job to encourage him to put a little more accent, as it were, where encouragement is needed, and I invite the right hon. Gentleman in his important capacity to say to the nation, "Thank you, workers, for having contributed to the stability of prices over the past year" and to all his friends who are responsible as directors for dividend policy, "I regret that you, directors, have not come up to the standard of the workers in their sense of patriotism". If the Chancellor would make it as plain as that, I would not need to natter at him from time to time in order to put the matter into fair perspective.
  I turn to the major item in the economic scene about which I am most concerned, and that goes back to productivity. Looked at in terms of one year, we all know that production has gone up. However, I am taking the broader view and considering the issue over a period of years. Taken over a number of years, our productivity is sadly lagging behind our competitors. OUT competitors are the developed countries in Western Europe and in America. Our increase in productivity is not to be compared with that in Western Europe over a number of years. We are all on
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  the same footing. We all want to see an increase in productivity, coupled with stability, improved exports and an increase in our standard of living as a result.
  This was a feature of last year's Budget debates and the Finance Act and, as the Chancellor will remember, the right hon. Gentleman and I at one stage had a debate on the need for private industry to be encouraged to increase its investment in plant. For that purpose, the Chancellor was proposing allowances which at that time I thought were inadequate. I think that the Chancellor will agree that the figures show that those fiscal devices did not achieve his purpose. They were intended to increase investment and, accordingly, productivity during the year. They failed to do that.
  What happened was that consumption, which the right hon. Gentleman encouraged, worked its way through the economy and stimulated investment. We are now in the interesting situation of asking what we are to do now. The Chancellor is now proposing possibly to curb consumption—which I welcome 100 per cent., because curbing consumption is absolutely essential—without in any sense stopping investment.
  The Chancellor proposes to do two things about that. The first is one about which we know very little. It was contained in his veiled statement yesterday, which I hope means that he will concentrate on two things, bank advances and hire-purchase advances. As to personal bank advances, I admit that I belong to the old school. If this were a banking community, I should be sitting on the benches opposite and not on this side of the Committee. I believe in the simple proposition that one should earn one's money before one spends it.
  Mr. Nabarro: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Diamond: I know that that is astonishingly out of date, but it is the idea on which I was brought up and we are all subject to our influences at home. That is my view about life, and I regret the way we and the Government and the banks go about encouraging people to borrow on the flimsiest of securities, totally unrelated to banking, in search of extra banking profits. I am sure that that is something which we as a nation do not want. If we want to increase

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  consumption, we have methods better than that. Bank loans have been used for a variety of unnecessary and unwise purposes -motor cars galore, for instance. There is nothing wrong with owning a motor car if one has earned one's money and can afford to buy a motor car, but why should we borrow on future time and on our children's future activities?
  Mr. Paul Williams: The hon. Gentleman is laying down what he thinks is a sound principle for individual behaviour. Would he apply that principle to industry in general, to the nationalised as well as to the private sector?
  Mr. Diamond: I am talking about individuals going to banks and hire-purchase companies and borrowing money so that they can enjoy certain articles of consumption for which they are unable to pay. I am sticking to that. I am saying that, on moral principles, this is not something which we can support and that on fiscal principles it is something which we do not want to encourage, because if we want to encourage consumption there are much better ways of doing it.
  Mr. F. M. Bennett: What I am about to say is in no way a hostile rejoinder to the hon. Gentleman—quite the contrary—and is fairly pertinent. Would be accept that if it is not wise for a private individual to do that, then it is not wise for Governments to do what they have a tendency to do, which is to finance long-term undertakings by short-term Treasury bills?
  Mr. Diamond: The hon. Gentleman must be fair. He is trying to divert a simple economic principle into a highly technical argument about short-term borrowing for long-term investment. It would take me a quarter of an hour to answer that question fully. I should be glad to do that, but outside the Chamber.
  I propose to get on, Sir Samuel, because I know that you are anxious to call any number of other speakers who wish to participate in this debate. I will get on with what I think is a serious omission to face the position. I hope that I shall be excused for not re-living the past and not fighting the General Election all over again, as the President of the Board of Trade did. What I am
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  concerned with is the fact that we are in a race. I am not concerned with increasing production merely so that we shall all wallow in better and more comfortable armchairs year after year. I am concerned that we are in the race with other countries which spend a good deal more on their investment, and we are always behind them. We never invest sufficiently far ahead. The interesting thing about a race, as everyone recognises at once, is that it is no good a contestant saying that he can run as fast as the next fellow. Unless he starts at the same time, he will be beaten. It is no use a contestant starting two or three laps behind and saying that he can run as fast as the person immediately in front of him. It is doubtful whether he can, but even if he can he must start at the same time.
  The practice of allowing investment to lag and suddenly saying, "We shall have to pull it up again" as has happened in the past year, and indeed for two or more years, means that we are being left behind in this important race. I think that the race is frightfully important. I come on now to the aspect which bothers me more than anything else about the whole of the economic situation and which the Chancellor of the Exchequer thought fit not to mention. I dare say he thought it right not to mention it because he considered that it was not entirely relevant. I am more concerned about our future in relation to the Common Market than I am about any other single factor. I am more concerned at what we have to do and the change of mind and heart which we have to accomplish before we shall have this country running on a satisfactory economic keel for a long period ahead. The Chancellor will not take this as a criticism, but I am surprised that he and the President of the Board of Trade did not think fit to go into this and tell us what the situation is and what is required. We are not the "E.F.T.A." countries; we are the "left-out" countries. We are being left out of future economic development, and we are not even sufficiently conscious that we are being left out in the cold.
  This means not only a series of economic actions, but a complete readjustment of our minds. It means that we must recognise that what we were taught at school was wrong. We were

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  taught that every single English man is worth three Frenchmen, four Germans and five Dutchmen. That is not right. They have as many brains as we have. They have as much industry, if not more industry, as we have. The first thing most of us notice on a tour of the Continent is that they keep open much later and work much harder. I am not saying that they should or should not.
  This is a situation which we fail to recognise. We surround ourselves with our typical insularity and say "We are British. We shall wave the Union Jack and everything will be all right". It will not be all right. In two years' time we shall be in a very serious position indeed unless we adjust our minds. This will be so even though we may in the meantime, as I hope that we shall, bring up our production, increase our productivity, and do everything else which is required of a nation such as ours which depends on the economic activity of the West for the rising standard of living of all of us.
  5.53 p.m.
  Mr. Nicholas Ridley: It is with great trepidation that I rise to address the Committee for the first time. It is extremely difficult to think of much to say on the Budget which is not in some sense controversial. I hope that the Committee will forgive me, as I will endeavour not to try the patience of hon. Members for too long.
  I have the honour to represent the Cirencester and Tewkesbury Division of Gloucestershire. Many hon. Members will know that beautiful countryside and reckon me one of the luckiest Members from that point of view. I also have the honour to follow in the footsteps of Mr. Speaker's predecessor, Lord Dunrossil. He earned for himself a great name, both in the House of Commons and outside it. When looking through some of his earlier speeches the other day I found that in one of his very first speeches, on the Budget in 1932, he used the following sentence:
  "All taxation is bad …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd March, 1932; Vol. 263, c. 1091.]
  If Lord Dunrossil thought that in those days, he would certainly think so very much more strongly now, because in the Budget of 1930 Income Tax stood at 4s. 6d. in the £ and yielded about £250 million only in a full year.
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  Many of my constituents are farmers, and they have a double ordeal at this time of year—the February Price Review, followed by the Budget. In most years they gain on the roundabouts what they lose on the swings, but they may not be quite so happy this year. It seems that they are asked every year to increase their efficiency by £25 million. How nice it would be if the Government similarly assumed that they would increase their own efficiency by a similar amount before the Budget was drawn.
  However, I am sure that farmers throughout the land will be very glad to hear that the worst loopholes of tax farming are about to be stopped up. Tax farming is not in the interests of the farming community as a whole. There are marginal cases where rich men occupy land and more earthy gentlemen might feel that they would like to occupy the same land. There are those cases which are arguable either way. At least, the better-off gentleman put extra capital into the land through certain tax expenses which, in the long run, is to the benefit of agriculture. We must be careful not to carry the rooting out of expenses so far that we kill genuine and good investment.
  There are many other forms of tax dodgers. The hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond), my neighbour, dwelt very long on that subject. It is so complicated. Many people have to employ accountants to keep within the law, let alone to get anything further. I suggest to the hon. Member for Gloucester that it might be a good idea to introduce a 100 per cent. tax on accountants' fees to discourage such gentlemen from going too far.
  We must pursue the dishonest in this respect, but I think that a strong reason why people try to evade tax is that the general level of taxation is too heavy year by year. This is especially true of the income range between £1,500 and £3,000 a year gross. I shall quote some figures to show how much those people pay in tax, compared with when Lord Dunrossil, thirty years ago, said, "All taxation is bad". Since 1930, the cost of living has risen by 172 per cent. A man earning £1,500 a year now pays £227, or 15 per cent. of his total income, in Income Tax. The equivalent salary in 1930 was £550. A man earning that

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  salary paid £12 Income Tax, or 2½ per cent. of his income. Therefore, that type of Englishman pays six times as much as he used to.
  Further up the scale, a married man with two children earning £2,500 a year now pays £670 Income Tax, or 27 per cent. of his income, whereas a man earning the equivalent salary of £900 thirty years ago paid £62, or 7 per cent. of his income. Therefore, the incidence of Income Tax in that income group has risen by nearly four times. I believe that in Germany a married man with two children earning £2,500 a year would pay £350, or about half as much.
  This group comprises about half a million families, and includes those engineers, technicians, young managers and skilled workers on whom our industrial future depends. No wonder that they are tending to go abroad. No wonder that they are looking across the Atlantic, where they can expect to receive a higher net income. There is even a genuine and honest fear of Surtax itself. People feel that there is something wrong and intimidating about crossing the £2,000 mark. I was asked by someone whose salary I once put up to leave it at £1,999, though he added that he would not mind having a firm's car.
  In this class are those who try as far as they can to educate their children, saving the Exchequer considerable sums. They try to pay for their own doctors— and have to pay for their own drugs if they do. They also find that when their children go to the university they are debarred from grant because of the means test.
  I know that we cannot suggest a tax relief without saying where the money is to come from, and we shall not get enough from stopping up loopholes of taxation expenditure and evasion to pay for the scale of relief I feel is necessary for these people. It is, perhaps, a pity, with the modern theory of economy about which the Chancellor spoke so convincingly yesterday, when he described how the volume of demand had grown, and said that we must not do anything at this stage to make it grow further, that we have come to the conclusion that our Budget must not be one that gives much away when the nation is prosperous and doing well, and we are nearing full employment, and that,
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  conversely, in a time of slump, we can look to tax reliefs to stimulate the economy.
  Tax relief that is not spent—that is saved—would be a benefit even at the present time, as I am sure the Chancellor would agree, and I suggest that this class of people, when they have paid for their education and health, and have met other calls upon their purse, will, in the main, be prepared to try to put by something for their old age, and that a relief in that direction might not have been as inflationary as my right hon. Friend may have feared.
  With that qualification. I think that this is a good Budget, and one making for stability. It is fair to all sections of the population, and it is the type of Budget that we must suffer from time to time. However, if the situation next year is more favourable—which would mean, perhaps, that we were not quite so prosperous, which is the anomaly— I hope that the Chancellor will turn his attention to these long-suffering people whose case I have tried to make out this afternoon.
  6.4 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Houghton: It gives me very great pleasure indeed to congratulate the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) on his maiden speech. I am sure that his manner was agreeable to the whole Committee, and he must feel very pleased that his ordeal is over and that he has come through it with flying colours. He is so young, and his seat must be so safe, that he is likely to be in the House for many years. I am sure that he will look back on this occasion with much satisfaction, because he has made his speech to the approbation of the whole Committee.
  The hon. Member quoted his distinguished predecessor, Mr. Speaker Morrison—now Lord Dunrossil—as saying that all taxation is bad. Willingness to pay tax is a willingness to give, and that is the spirit in which we should look at our obligation to the community and to the State. We could not get along without taxation, and many of its objects are regarded by the whole of the country as necessary, and a great many of them as desirable. Objection to the present level of taxation must, therefore, amount

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  to disapproval of some of the national purposes to which the citizen is asked to give.
  There may be differences of opinion about the desirability and value of some of the national services, but it must be remembered that those have all received the approval of this House—and we speak, we hope, in the name of the majority of the people. Therefore, this constant nagging about taxation is really a form of social delinquency. We should appreciate that our contributions to taxation are for essential and desirable purposes, and should look at taxation from that point of view—
  Mr. Nabarro: Not always desirable.
  Mr. Houghton: The hon. Gentleman says, "Not always desirable". There are a great many things that are not desirable in his view. Indeed, I do not believe that his own Government is desirable in his opinion. As I said a moment ago, these purposes have received the approval of the House and, generally speaking, of the country.
  The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury suggested that since accountants are necessary to keep us within the law it might be a good idea to levy a 100 per cent. tax on their fees. Of course, he was jocular in his reference to the purpose for which we employ accountants. It is mostly to enable us to exploit the law, but there is no doubt that accountants, with due deference to my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond), have a very strong vested interest in many practices, within the law, that constantly worry Chancellors of the Exchequer, and lead to restrictive measures.
  Conservative Chancellors must be extremely fortunate people. It so happens that just before a General Election they are able to give the country an easy Budget, and then, after a General Election, they have to pull back. That has happened again this year. Another striking thing is that when it is necessary to claw something back, the new impositions of taxation go on shoulders that did not previously receive direct relief.
  This time, the tobacco consumers are asked to pay more although, in last year's Budget, they were not direct recipients of tax reliefs. The beer drinkers got it then; now the smokers must make up for it—
  Mr. Alan Green: Tobacco smokers are not just tobacco smokers. They are consumers of other things as well, as I am sure the hon. Member appreciates. They are not a class to themselves. And there is also the matter of the Profits Tax.
  Mr. Houghton: I was just referring to the direct relief given last year and to the imposition a new tax this year. Those who got direct relief last year do not have to suffer this time. It is the smoker who has to pay this year.
  I hope that the Chancellor is not getting weary of constant references to the position of old-age pensioners because, at Budget time, of all times, we feel bound to impress their case upon him. On these benches there is a growing conviction that the Government do not intend to do anything for old-age pensioners in the foreseeable future.
  During the General Election campaign, the Conservative Party and the Government made firm promises to the old-age pensioners that they would have a share in rising prosperity, and the Prime Minister emphasised that those were not mere words. We have pressed the Government in recent weeks to declare themselves in this matter. What are their intentions? We are assured by the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance that the matter is under constant review. Constant review is all very well so long as it produces some results, but, otherwise, it is merely evasive action; it puts off the old-age pensioners and does not give their case serious consideration.
  I come now to one aspect of Government expenditure which, I think, has not been fully appreciated in the House or in the country. The increases in Government expenditure which we are asked to provide for contain a fairly serious backlog of pay increases in the public and near-public services. For some years, those employed in administration and services have not kept abreast of the rising level of pay in industry and commerce. A battery of committees and commissions has been appointed by the Government recently to examine the growing gap between levels of pay in the public and near-public services and those for comparable work outside.
  We had the Priestley Commission for the Civil Service. We had the

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  Pilkington Commission for doctors and dentists. We have had the Guillebaud Committee for railwaymen, and now we have the Willink Commission for the police. Those are the four patron saints of fair comparisons.
  Mr. Nabarro: Of the Establishment.
  Mr. Houghton: Not of the Establishment but those employed by the Establishment.
  Mr. Nabarro: What I said was that the gentlemen the hon. Member named are the four patron saints of the Establishment.
  Mr. Houghton: I call them the four patron saints of fair comparisons, the principle which the Government appear to have adopted generally as the basis for fixing the pay of those in the public and near-public services in relation to those outside. The number of workers concerned is very large and is growing. It seems now that we have two main groups of wage and salary earners, on the one hand, the pace-setters and, on the other, the catchers-up. A good deal of the increased expenditure before us relates to pay which it is now necessary to give to the catchers-up to give them fair comparisons with those employed outside on comparable work.
  If the Committee and the House approves of this new relationship between public servants and similar employees and those in industry and commerce, there will be a growing rise in public expenditure to enable the public sector to keep abreast of the private sector. Written into the Estimates this year are several years' backlog. If this is fully understood, one word should be addressed to those who will receive the benefit of this new principle, a principle which is certainly better and more reassuring than anything adopted in the past.
  What we are entitled to say to those workers is that, if they are to be brought into close relationship in their pay with the levels of pay in industry and commerce, then their work and qualifications must be subject to certain tests. We cannot apply the test of profit and loss accounting, but we can apply the test of efficiency and economical working. I believe that the Committee will not call in vain upon those concerned to cooperate in applying more suitable tests of efficiency and economy.
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  I hope that the Chancellor will stick firmly, despite discouragements, to the principle which is now being consolidated in respect of a very wide range of workers. It may be expensive. I think it probably will be. But it will be fair and, without it, there will inevitably be a fall in the morale, efficiency and enthusiasm of those upon whom he will rely in a very broad sector of the public services for efficient service to the State. This is not, of course, confined only to the Civil Service: it goes very much wider than that.
  I come now to the provisions in the Budget to curb tax avoidance and other matters which are the concern of the Inland Revenue. In one column in the Press today, it has been called a "Somerset House" Budget. To that extent it is an honest man's Budget, because the steps which the Chancellor has taken on this occasion are safeguards against the abuse of our tax system. I am glad that the Chancellor has finally come down in favour of general as well as specific safeguards against the ramifications of bond washing and dividend stripping. It is five years since the present Minister of Housing and Local Government assured the Committee that the days of the dividend stripper were numbered. They proved not to be numbered. We hope that they are numbered now. The general provision which is proposed will give powers to the Inland Revenue which should be a safeguard against new devices not covered by the specific provisions.
  The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury referred to the approval which he thought the farming community in his constituency would give to the steps to be taken against the hobby farmer, the dinner-jacket farmer, the Stock Exchange farmer—whatever derogatory term one chooses to describe those in farming for purposes other than commercial profit. It has been said, and it may be true to an extent, that some farmers in that position are able to con-tribute something of value to stock breeding, research and experimental activities of one kind or another, provided that they can have their losses set off against their other income.
  We ought to be able to provide for stock breeding, research and experiment by means other than a raid on the

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  Exchequer in this indirect way. The Chancellor's provision covers not only farmers, but a probably more numerous body of tax avoiders, that is to say, the bogus market gardener and others who are in business more for the sake of setting off their losses against other income than for the purposes of making a profit on their business activities.
  There are many people with larger gardens than perhaps they wish to maintain at their own expense who, ostensibly, are market gardeners. They have motor vehicles and workers. They may even have wives as managers of the market garden. At present, these expenses properly axe charged against the receipts of their business and, not unexpectedly, they make a heavy loss, which is set off against other income.
  In an earlier debate, I made a suggestion which would at least restrain this set-off of losses against other income, namely, to restrict the loss to gross takings. The Chancellor of the Exchequer would be quite surprised to know how many cases there are in which the losses greatly exceed the gross takings of the business, which shows plainly that the people concerned are not really in business. This type of case will be caught by the Chancellor's proposals. The Chancellor has accepted the recommendation of the Radcliffe Committee in this respect. Whether it is the better way of dealing with the matter than alternatives which we might canvass later, I am not sure, but one of the objections to the remedy which the Chancellor proposes is that it opens up more argument and disputation between the taxpayers and the Inland Revenue about what are his real intentions.
  On the whole, I am in favour of reducing the area of dispute between the taxpayer and the tax gatherer, which leads to a lot of bad blood on both sides. If we can, we should reduce it considerably, but hon. Members opposite must realise that it means much rougher justice—
  Mr. Nabarro: No.
  Mr. Houghton: In many cases, it is bound to mean rougher justice. In some circumstances, it would mean flat rate allowances which might be beneficial to some and inadequate to others.
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  The question whether a farmer or other person is in business for commercial profit can be open to argument in a number of cases. I am prepared to discuss the matter later, but I offer the alternative that losses on a business of this type should be a running charge against future profits, and should not be set off against other income. There should not be argument with the Inland Revenue about how the losses have been incurred. There should be no tax relief at all and the losses should be left until they can be set off against future profits. Perhaps then some of these businesses would make a profit if only to extinguish their accumulated losses.
  I now turn to the general question of expenses under Schedule D and Schedule E about which there has been considerable discussion in the Press and in the courts lately. The Chancellor has not dealt with this matter in this Budget, but I have no doubt that there will be a considerable amount of discussion about it in our later debates. Here again, I think that the Chancellor should consider the introduction of provisions which will reduce argument between the tax gatherer and the Inland Revenue.
  If we look at the formula for Schedule E expenses, those "wholly exclusively and necessarily incurred" in the performance of an office, we will see that an employer can reasonably be expected to provide the means of meeting expenses "wholly, exclusively and necessarily" incurred in the performance of the job. But, in many cases, employers do not do that. They provide employees with a gross remuneration out of which they pay their own expenses. Consequently, the employer leaves his employee to contend with the Inland Revenue for the highest net income he can get.
  Mr. Nabarro indicated dissent.
  Mr. Houghton: The hon. Member either does not approve or does not understand, but it must be obvious that if an employee receives a gross amount out of which he pays expenses "wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred" in the performance of his job, he is spending money on his employer's behalf. Why does not the employer provide him with the money, either in subsistence, travelling and similar allowances which are above board and which can be

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  properly checked by the employer? What the employer says in many cases is, "Here is a gross amount. Pay your own expenses and tell any tales which you have to the Inland Revenue. Do not tell them to me".
  In those circumstances, why should not an employee, like a civil servant, local government officer, or an employee of many public companies, claim his out-of-pocket expenses, such as travelling and subsistence expenses, from his employer in the normal way? Undoubtedly, that would overcome many of the exaggerated claims made against the Inland Revenue.
  Again, agreements could be reached between particular vocations and their staff or professional organisations on flat-rate allowances which would be accepted by members of the vocation or profession generally as being fair and reasonable. That is what is done in the trade unions. Nearly all trade unions have agreements with the Inland Revenue for flat-rate expense allowances for tools, overalls, special clothing, and so forth, thus relieving the worker of the need to contend with the Inland Revenue. I think that that is a practice which should be widely extended, thereby relieving both the taxpayer and the Inland Revenue of a good deal of needless trouble.
  When we come to the Schedule D expense formula, that of "expenses wholly laid out for the purposes of trade," there is no doubt that the door is wide open. I dissent from the view that the solution to this problem is to bring the Schedule E expense formula into line with that of Schedule D. If that were done, the Inland Revenue would be literally defenceless against bogus claims or exaggerated claims on a wide scale. That is not the remedy. Nor do I think that the recommendations of the Radcliffe Committee are the remedy. The Radcliffe Committee suggested that the expenses should be "suitable and appropriate" for the performance of the job, thus opening up a wider field of argument about what is suitable and appropriate.
  What I think is necessary is something quite drastic, such as the disallowance for tax purposes of certain types of expenditure altogether, without any argument.
  Mr. Nabarro: What sort of expenditure?
  Mr. Houghton: I would say entertainment most definitely. Let companies entertain at their own expense. There is nothing to stop companies entertaining at their own expense, but the expenses incurred should not be chargeable against taxable profits. That is the mischief of the entertainment racket. There is no other word that can be applied to it. We can all see obvious signs of commercial and industrial extravagance which undoubtedly reacts adversely on the attitude of mind of a great many ordinary work people who can see what is going on.
  Certainly, something much more drastic is necessary to curb expenditure in that direction. I hope that in time the Chancellor will tackle this problem boldly. In the Finance Bill this year the Inland Revenue has undoubtedly already taken up residence in many of the spaces which might otherwise be needed for Clauses dealing with tax changes. The Chancellor might have as much on his plate as the Finance Bill will stand this time.
  I want to say one word about penalties. We have not yet seen what the Chancellor proposes to do as a result of the judgment in the House of Lords in the recent Hinchy case, but there has been a great deal of distortion and misrepresentation of the penalty Clauses of the Income Tax Acts, and particularly about the manner of their application by the Inland Revenue Department. I hope that the Chancellor will leave himself room for negotiated settlements in many of these back duty cases. Without that we may see an increase in the number of proceedings for the recovery of penalties, which I am sure we are not anxious to see.
  The Inland Revenue has taken the line that it is not out to make criminals; it is out to collect tax. That is a sound doctrine. In 1944, Sir John Anderson, later Lord Waverley, referred to the discretion which the Inland Revenue Department use in negotiating settlements which might otherwise be exposed to much more severe action, and I believe that his statement was received with approval by the House. I hope that the Chancellor has not tied himself or his Department too tightly in this matter, because, despite the recent case, these

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  penalty Clauses, which have been in operation for many years, have been used wisely and with discretion by the authorities.
  At a time when we are talking of restraints on consumer spending it is paradoxical to see advertising, on commercial television and elsewhere, expanding to an almost unbelievable extent. I should have thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have taken something out of the enormous profits of commercial television. He should certainly have considered a capital gains tax, in the context of the present economic situation. I know that there is a resistance to the introduction of a new fiscal code, with all its complications and possibilities of avoidance, but no one can doubt that there is considerable public disquiet at the enormous profits being made by speculative enterprises of one kind and another, improving the taxable capacity of individuals without causing any tax to be levied upon them.
  That is a grave social and fiscal scandal, and, bold as the right hon. Gentleman has shown himself to be in certain respects, he should have tackled that problem on this occasion. I hope that he will not lose sight of it next time.
  6.33 p.m.
  Mr. F. M. Bennett: As I do not wish to keep the Committee for longer than is necessary, I do not propose to follow the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) into his interesting discourse on fiscal matters. I hope that he will forgive me for not doing so. I will merely say that on one or two points I felt some sympathy with what he was saying.
  Judging from Press reports this morning, and from what was said by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson), one would have thought that the whole Conservative Party was hostile to the Budget. No one has suggested that I should say this, but I must say that this is a gross perversion of the truth. Because a minority of my party is both articulate and vocal it does not necessarily follow that it commands the majority support. No one should know that better than the Labour Party which is constantly telling us that about its own
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  much more serious difficulties in this field.
  Mr. Nabarro: Does my hon. Friend mean that the majority are inarticulate?
  Mr. Bennett: It does not mean that. It means that we are a little less vocal, which is slightly different from not being articulate.
  Various accusations and counter-accusations have been made about the relevance of this Budget in the context of what the parties offered at the last General Election. It is no part of my duty to talk of what the Opposition offered at the last election, because, since they were soundly beaten, it is irrelevant. But the feature of the Conservative programme which, above all others in the economic field, influenced the electorate, at any rate in my constituency, was our promise to seek to maintain stable prices and not return to inflation.
  It may be arguable whether this Budget is likely to achieve stable prices. All I can say is that I have sufficient respect for the Chancellor and his advisers to believe that in the context of the existing situation a Budget of this sort was inevitable. I gather that this much at least is common ground with the Opposition Front Bench. If there is a real fear that there will be an excess of demand outrunning resources, it seems to me—without being an expert, or as vocal as some of my hon. Friends —that one of the best ways of saving the situation and maintaining stable prices is to curtail the level of excess demand.
  The right hon. Member for Huyton was more than a little unfair when he criticised the relief given in respect of port and sherry. No one knows better than he, as an ardent advocate of economic co-operation in Europe and the European Free Trade Association, that this relief is part of that co-operation. It is playing shoddy party politics to make out that this is a luxury item. If we are to expect a nation like Portugal, which is only partially industrially developed, to reduce its trade barriers and take a greater amount of British manufactured goods, we must accept, as freely as possible, the few exports which Portugal is at present able to send us.
  As I understood my right hon. Friend, he seemed to be bringing light sparkling wines into this relief. It may be that there is some highly technical Customs

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  and Excise reason for this, but I hope that he will consider the matter again. I can think of many good reasons why we should help the Portuguese, but it is more difficult to justify extra reliefs on imports from France, notwithstanding the current visit of a distinguished personage from across the Channel. We appear to be taking this step without there being any reciprocity at all. I urge my right hon. Friend to reconsider the matter, and to see whether we cannot make a distinction between the two commodities.
  In the matter of cigarettes, I can declare a negative interest. As a non-smoker I have no personal feelings, one way or the other. I do not for a moment believe that this is a case, as has been said, of the Chancellor taking 2d. off the beer in 1959 before the election and putting 2d. on cigarettes now. I do not believe that it is a simple piece of electioneering like that, and I do not believe that those who make that charge believe it, either. There are essential differences. It was said in 1959 that the revenue from beer was falling, and it is a classical method, from the Treasury point of view, that tax is reduced when the revenue falls, with the idea of stimulating that revenue. When it is rising the Chancellor looks around and says, "This is a good place to get a little extra without interfering with the use or the consumption of the article." Therefore, there are good classical fiscal reasons why the Chancellor should have done this.
  Yet I wonder, but not on the alleged ground of unpopularity, whether the economic framework which the Chancellor is trying to produce requires the extra money which he will raise from the duty on cigarettes. As I am not a smoker I have never, to my knowledge, got cigarettes out of a machine, but I am told that the complications involved by the changes in cost are very extensive indeed.
  Mr. Nabarro: Insuperable.
  Mr. Bennett: Frankly, I do not think that the tax will make a jot of difference to the number of cigarettes smoked, but I wonder whether the Chancellor will think, on reflection, that this is the best or the only way in which he can raise this extra revenue, if, indeed, he needs the extra revenue at all.
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  As to tax avoidance, I should like to say again, contrary to some remarks made from the benches opposite, that I and, I believe, almost everyone else on this side of the Committee are delighted at any step which ends rackets and abuses. For hon. Members opposite to claim a monopoly of virtue in this matter is nauseating hypocrisy. I should have thought that there was never a happier or better era for "spivs" than the period between 1946 and 1951. That was, indeed, their golden age, and for hon. Members opposite to claim a monopoly of virtue now is very hard for some of us to swallow.
  There is widespread agreement that the matter of the "golden handshake" has got out of all proportion and that some steps should be taken to stop the practice. I wonder, however, whether it is not possible to differentiate between a genuine loss of office in which the loser of the office plays no part, because he suddenly finds himself, against his wishes, out of a job after a long time or a lifetime in the work, and some of the other cases of which we know where when a take-over takes place the loss of office is merely a temporary transfer before a more profitable office is assumed in the new firm following the take-over. I hope that the Chancellor will think it possible to look at the distinct moral difference between these two instances.
  As to the more general tightening on the manipulation of companies and shares, I feel entitled humbly to claim a little credit, and I only do this now because of the claims made from the benches opposite. I doubt whether anyone has been more assidous than myself during the last few months in putting forward precisely the need for this reform by way of Questions and in any other way whereby I could get some publicity on the subject. Oddly enough, when I have asked these Questions it has been noticeable that I did not have the terrific volume of support from hon. Members opposite which one is now led to believe was there all the time.
  Clearly, there are a number of points to be taken into account here. Just because dividend stripping is the one which has received the most stripping —[Laughter.] I mean the most publicity —I hope that we do not allow ourselves to believe that this is the only or the

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  most significant method of tax avoidance. I will not worry the Committee with the various methods of which I have particulars and of which the Treasury has been made aware, but, broadly speaking, what has been going on is that a minority of astute gentlemen have been disguising as capital investments a whole series of what are really trading income transactions. They have done this by dressing up each transaction in a capital form through the creation and later, perhaps, the disappearance, of a company formed just for that object. I see no difficulty at all in distinguishing between deliberately creating and manipulating devices of this kind and genuine capital investments and changes in them of the sort which we do not want to deter.
  I hope that when the Clause in the Finance Bill comes to be drafted we shall be extremely careful that in getting rid of abuses we do not create a method which might be used in future years for quite a different and wrong purpose. I hope that this is not a first step on the part of the Chancellor towards a capital gains tax. I hope and believe that it is precisely the opposite and that my right hon. Friend is taking this step because if he did not deal with these abuses of Income Tax now he would be liable to increasing pressure for a capital gains tax as time went on. If he does not take this step we are most likely to find ourselves faced, sooner or later, with a capital gains tax which would be undoubtedly wrong for the country in every way.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: I do not know whether the Financial Secretary to the Treasury could tell us whether that is a true interpretation of the Chancellor's intention.
  Mr. Bennett: Normally, I deal with interruptions myself. I do not ask the Treasury Bench to reply. I phrased my sentences extremely carefully. I said that I hoped and was glad to think that this was the Chancellor's point of view. Whether it is or not, I assume the Chancellor will be able to tell us as time goes on, but I believe that I have universal support on this side of the Committee in
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  saying that we favour this proposal precisely because we disapprove of a capital gains tax and not because it might be a first step or a backdoor approach to it.
  Before I was interrupted vicariously I was about to deal with farming losses. I do not know whether forestry is included. I have to declare an interest straight away, because I am an owner and grower of woodlands. I am not talking about Estate Duty provisions. I am speaking in terms of current Schedule D losses and gains. However careful one may be, and however keen to make a profit and make a business of it, the fact remains that one cannot do other than make a loss out of planting woodlands for a number of years, for the unhappy reason that the trees do not grow for a long time and they have to be looked after and woods have to be cleared in the meantime. This is a point which might be forgotten if I did not mention it now early in our debates.
  I have some other words of criticism to make of right hon. and hon. Members opposite on the question of entertainment expenses. I have no axe to grind here at all, but an awful lot of nonsense is talked about this. There are, of course, many instances of abuses taking place, but to suggest that if we manage to clear them up the Chancellor will never need to raise any other taxes and we shall suddenly find scores of extra millions of pounds coming into the Revenue is a grotesque perversion of the truth.
  It is not a bad idea, when we talk about businessmen and why it is necessary for them to lubricate their clients and themselves when they are trying to do business—and some doubt has been cast today on the need for them to do that—to point out that I do not exactly notice an entire lack of desire on the part of right hon. and hon. Members opposite and, indeed, of hon. Members on either side of the Committee, to enjoy the hospitality offered at Government Hospitality, Parliamentary and C.P.A. functions and the like, where there are free sherry or other drinks.
  Mr. George Thomas: And orange juice.
  Mr. Bennett: In response to that interruption, I will include free orange juice, and so hope to carry the hon. Gentleman with me.

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  If it is necessary for us, when foreign or Commonwealth visitors come to this country, to join with them in these "jollies", which we all enjoy, and which I think do a lot of good, we must not be too smug when businessmen who want to sell their goods get together with other business people who come to this country. For in these parties, we Members do not even pay the difference between the top bracket of tax and the total cost, but the businessmen at least do that. This House and other people in Government service get the whole lot free out of the taxpayer, and not 60, 70, or even 80 per cent. Therefore, let us not be too smug about this because otherwise we may find ourselves facing considerable and deserved criticism in other less fortunate circles.
  6.51 p.m.
  Mr. A. V. Hilton: Exactly one year ago today I took my seat in this House, and, having done so, within two or three minutes the speech to which I listened was that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer making his Budget statement for 1959. As a real newcomer, I was obviously very interested in that speech, and, although I was quite a "greenhorn", it was obvious to me before the Chancellor had finished his speech last year that it was a pre-election Budget speech.
  A year has passed, and yesterday I again listened with very great interest to the same Chancellor, but what a vastly different Budget speech it was.
  Mr. H. Hynd: After the election.
  Mr. Hilton: Quite obviously, as my hon. Friend the Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd) has said, it was after the election. This speech was so different that some hon. Members opposite and some sections of the Press are saying that this one is a Socialist Budget.
  Mr. Nabarro: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Hilton: The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) says "Hear, hear," I do not consider that it is a Socialist Budget, however, although there are other things in it with which we on this side of the Committee agree. The main difference is this. I cannot conceive of a Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer in a Budget speech in these
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  days not making any provision to improve the lot of the old-age and other pensioners. I have said that it was just a year ago today that I took my seat in this House, and it was in making a plea for an increase in pensions that I made my maiden speech within a few days of coming here. I make no apology for returning to this theme today.
  When I refer to old-age pensions. I am sure that, although we listened yesterday to the Minister of Pensions hard-heartedly rejecting all the pleas made from this side of the Committee about increasing pensions, we on this side do not get all the pleading letters from people who are up against it at this time. We Members get all sorts of letters from old-age pensioners, and only last week I had a card from somebody who signed himself "O.A.P." and who referred me to a passage in the Bible, giving the book, chapter and verse. When I turned it up, this is what I read:
  "When I am old and grey-headed, torsake me not."
  Despite what has been said frequently in recent months about what the party opposite has done for old-age and other pensioners, there is a very strong feeling amongst old people that they are being forsaken by the present Government. One concession announced yesterday by the Chancellor was 3d. off a pack of cards, and, as one cartoonist put it today, it will mean that while the old people are patiently waiting for an increase in their benefits they will be able to while away the time playing patience at 3d. a pack cheaper.
  There are certain things in the Budget which I welcome, particularly the decision to take steps to stop tax evasion, which I believe all fair-minded people will agree is a very good thing. After all, I have represented manual workers, those who work on the land, for a good many years and unless they have one or two youngsters there is no possibility, paying as they do their Income Tax on the P.A.Y.E. system, of their evading the tax, which is taken from them at the source. As has been said from this side of the Chamber on so many occasions in recent years, it is wrong that the big boys should get away with it as blatantly as they have done for years.

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  The subject of the "golden handshake" has been referred to, and it is a good thing that the Chancellor has caught up with it, but I am more interested, coming from a rural area, in the gentlemen who come down to agricultural areas and take up farming for other than agricultural purposes. Much has been said about the way in which these gentlemen have been able in the past to evade paying Income-tax. It is a good thing that the Chancellor has decided at last to take action to prevent this sort of thing in the future. I think that it will have more than the effect of catching up with this type of person. It will mean additional revenue to the Exchequer, and I hope it will also mean that these people will realise that agriculture is not for that sort of purpose.
  In my own county, there are many bona fide agriculturalists who would dearly love to have farms but who just cannot get them because of these gentlemen coming into the rural areas, paying very high prices for farms and keeping out those people whose heritage farming is. If this action of the Chancellor will mean not only that he will recover more tax but that more of these farms will become available for those who are more entitled to them, he will be doing a doubly good job, and for that reason I am glad that he has taken this decision.
  Another thing that is welcomed on this side of the Committee, and, indeed, I think on both sides, is the abolition of the Entertainments Duty, which is a good thing. I believe that it is rather late in the day, but there is a lot of truth in the old saying, "Better late than never". Everybody, too, is pleased that the Chancellor has decided to make some concession in regard to post-war credits. This is something for which I know hon. Members on both sides have pleaded with him in the past, and last year he was able to make certain concessions. The Chancellor confessed yesterday that not as much had been drawn as he had anticipated and that not nearly as many people had asked for repayment as he thought would have done.
  Although the Chancellor has agreed to make further concessions this time, in my view he should have gone even further by reducing the age at which people can claim repayment of their post-war credits. After all, it is their
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  own money which is being withheld from them, and since the number of people who claimed repayment last year did not come up to the expectations of the Chancellor, I think that he could have gone a great deal further this time. However, I welcome the fact that he is making some concession.
  There is one thing about which I am not pleased and that is the reduction in the duty on wine and the increase in the tobacco duty. In this connection I think that the Chancellor was rather mixed. I must declare an interest here. I am a non-drinker. [An HON. MEMBER: "A non-drinker?"] Of course, one has to drink something, but I do not drink the wines referred to in the Budget. It is a fact that the ordinary person drinks very little of the wines on which the duty is to be reduced, whereas the majority of ordinary folk smoke quite a lot of the tobacco on which the duty is to be increased.
  Here, again, I am thinking of the old people. We were told yesterday by the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance that the present purchasing power of pensioners is slightly higher than it was a few years ago. The proposed increases in duty will hit our old friends, because they still like their pipe of tobacco. Therefore, I regret that the Chancellor has imposed these increases. Yesterday I went through the Lobby with the majority of my colleagues on this side of the Committee and voted against the increase in the Tobacco Duty. When I was in the Lobby I was thinking how much more I would have preferred to vote for this increase had the money been going to the old-age and other pensioners by way of increased benefits.
  As I know that there are a number of other hon. Members on both sides of the Committee who wish to take part in the debate, I will conclude by saying that I hope that before long the Government will listen to the pleas from this side of the Committee and will make it possible for an increase to be given in pensions for our many old-age friends who are going through the mill at this time.
  The Temporary Chairman: Order. Before I call on the next speaker, I want to apologise to the hon. Member for Clitheroe (Mr. F. Pearson) for not noticing just now that he was attempting to address the Committee for the first time. Mr. Pearson.
  7.6 p.m.
  Mr. Frank Pearson: Thank you very much, Dr. King, for your kind reference to the fact which slightly delayed my address to the Committee for the first time. It gave me the opportunity to retire for a little mental stimulus.
  In rising to address the Committee, I am only too conscious of the need which I have for that indulgence which is always shown to new Members. I shall speak briefly, and I wish to raise the matter of the £250 million to £260 million which the Chancellor is finding it necessary to raise in this current Budget in the furtherance of his farm support policies. Before I go any further, however, I must declare a slight personal, though almost insignificant interest, in a small part of those subsidies. I hasten to add that the Committee must not in though almost insgnificant, interest in in those "golden losses" which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has so rightly and so adequately dealt with.
  It is my honour to represent a Lancashire constituency which, in part, is interested in farming, but which in great part is interested in the textile trade and in other manufactures. It therefore falls to me to see both sides of the question of farm support. I am only too conscious of the farming side, but I am also extremely conscious of the taxpayers' side of the matter. We in Lancashire rather pride ourselves in asking whether we get value for money. At the present time I think it is pertinent to ask whether the taxpayer, for what is the equivalent of about 1s. 3d. in the £ at the standard rate, under our present price support policies is really getting full value for his money.
  The price support policies have two main objectives. The first is to enable the industry to equip itself and make itself more efficient. In that respect I think it can be said that price support has been essentially successful. We have now something like 168 per cent. of productivity and production above prewar. This represents between £400 million and £500 million worth of extra food produced by the farming industry in this country. In the speech made by my right hon. Friend in introducing the Budget, he made it only too clear that the question of the balance of payments is still with us. I ask the Committee to
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  contemplate what bill would have to be paid if we had to go into the markets of the world and buy an equal amount of food.
  There is a second point which is equally important, the question of maintaining a stable cost of living. In that respect I believe that our price support policies have played a vital part. I will give the Committee a few selected prices of ordinary commodities as they operate in this country and on the Continent. I must apologise for the fact that the statistics I have been able to obtain, issued by the International Labour Office, are possibly not as fresh as I hope the actual commodities are. In fact, I rather run the risk of being accused of ordering tonight's dinner off last year's menu.
  The cost of 1 1b. of bread in France is 7½d., in Germany 10¼d., in the United States 1s. 6½d., in this country 6½d. The cost of 1 lb. of beef in France is 8s. l½d., in the United States 8s. l½d., in Italy 7s. 2d., and in this country 5s. 3½d. The price of mutton is very much the same and the price of butter is in much the same relation. So a very real saving has been achieved, primarily through our price support policies.
  As the Committee will be aware, this year's review has not been accepted by the National Farmers' Union and has been open to very wide criticism by the industry as a whole. I do not think that it is because we have docked the odd £9 million off the Bill. It is something deeper, more genuine, that is worrying the industry.
  What concerns us is that while the industry as a whole, with the benefit of varying levels of tariff protection, is able to increase production, absorbing rising costs and reducing prices, it has to absorb those rising costs and to reduce its prices on the basis of a limited home market and the denial to it of an export trade in the interests of European trade agreements.
  This, on the face of it, may appear to have some validity. With all due respect to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, the current White Paper tends to give colour to this argument. In paragraph 14 we are certainly told either to reduce production or to hold it at its present levels on almost all the review commodities. I am certain that while there may be room

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  for increases in efficiency and for lowering costs, agriculture cannot hope to share in the increase in the living standards that we all look forward to unless production can be increased and outlets found for that increased production. If subsidies are standing in the way of these outlets, then subsidies must go wherever this is possible. What is disappointing about the White Paper is that this dilemma has not been faced.
  My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in introducing his Budget yesterday, said:
  "The main source of increased production has been a most welcome rise in output per head. In the long run—we cannot too often remember this—this is the only way in which, as a nation, we can earn an increase in our standard of living."—{OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 38.]
  I ask the Committee to consider how the small farmer, employing perhaps one or, at most, two men, can possibly increase his productivity unless he also increases his production. I have no doubt that if the farming community is to share in the rising standard of living that we all hope for and all anticipate, then we have not only to increase our productivity but also our production and also to find the outlets for that extra production.
  It is always dangerous to generalise about agricultural matters. It is something that none of us should ever do, because each item on the list is totally different and requires to be dealt with differently.
  I would draw the attention of the Committee to milk. Milk, with a turnover of £343 million per annum, is only subsidised to the extent of some £8 million, which is infinitesimal. I do not think that even the former Member opposite who once used the phrase "feather-bedding"could say that the dairy industry was being" feather-bedded." I am particularly disappointed with the reference in the Agricultural White Paper to milk. There we are told that we have to gear our production to the liquid market. There is no mention of the manufacture of cheese or of butter or of dried milk. That, apparently, is to be entirely denied to us. This is an industry which has placed itself in a high state of efficiency, and now we are told that we have to cut down on production.
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  It may be that with European trade agreements this slight and infinitesimal subsidy which we are now receiving is preventing us from going into the European market, from manufacturing cheese or dried milk to sell in Europe. If that is so, let us abolish the subsidy, let us get the thing on a rational basis and try to look overseas and see what new markets we can make for. In the end, that is the only way in which the agricultural industry will have any future.
  The position of beef is exactly the same —a large turnover with an infinitesimal subsidy of about £3,500,000. Why cannot we sell our beef in Paris, in Rome or in Bonn? We are going to enter the stage when we talk of reducing tariffs and opening world markets. I hope that when that time comes the President of the Board of Trade will not forget that British agriculture wants extra markets and extra outlets, and that in quality it can hold its own with any products in the world.
  I also mention New Zealand lamb. The sheep producers in this country have only 40 per cent. of the lamb and mutton market, and the remaining 60 per cent. is taken by New Zealand. All of us admit the importance of Commonwealth trade, and none of us would wish in any way to do anything prejudicial to it, but it appears to me that a home industry, such as sheep farming, which has tremendous possibilities for expansion, should have some slight increase in its possibilities in the home market. I cannot but think that if some increase were given it might well be possible to reduce the subsidy which is at present paid on lamb.
  The essence of a maiden speech is that it should be short, and I am conscious that I have already spoken for far longer than I should have done, but I wish to impress upon the Committee that there is a genuine feeling of unease and apprehension in agriculture, and it springs from the fact that those concerned cannot see where they are heading. The White Paper has not helped to clear the vision.
  For my part, I am quite clear that if ever the subsidy bill is to be reduced— and I think there are few people here who would not like to see it reduced— and if ever agriculture is to share in the increased living standards which we all

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  hope for, not only must its productivity increase but also its production.
  I am only too conscious that I am standing here, however temporarily, on the periphery of what I may be excused for calling a "blue zone". Nevertheless, I feel very strongly that these subsidies are not, in general, in the best interests of the agricultural industry, and that, although in selected parts of it they may be essential and may continue to be so, there is a large part of the industry which, if given a chance to compete in external markets, could do so on its own merits.
  We have the best land, the best farmers and the best quality food. In a world of shrinking distances and falling tariff barriers, a world of expansion and rising living standards, surely there must be room for all that we can produce. I hope that there will be no more talk of restriction, but that everything possible will be done to encourage the industry to go out and find new markets.
  7.20 p.m.
  Mr. John Cronin: It is very agreeable to follow the hon. Member for Clitheroe (Mr. F. Pearson). Although he said that he had an insignificant interest in farming, I thought that he made a very significant speech. It was delivered most agreeably and pleasantly and it contained much of substance and of considerable value to the Committee. But for his politics, I would say that Clitheroe was very fortunate to have him as a Member. I have only one criticism of the hon. Gentleman's speech and it is that it was not long enough. We would have liked to have heard more of him, but no doubt we shall do so on some other occasion.
  I want, first, to draw attention to two disappointing circumstances of the Budget. The first and most disappointing is that nothing has been done for retirement pensioners, for the sick and disabled. The second is that there has been no relief at all of the tax burden on the whole community, in either indirect or direct taxes.
  Mr. Nabarro: Join our group.
  Mr. Cronin: However, before I start to do that, it would be ungraceful if I did not compliment the Chancellor on some of the desirable aspects of the Budget. Some parts of the Budget are
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  Socialistic and for that we must congratulate him. I have heard that there is a possibility that the Chancellor will be retiring from politics in the near future. That will be a loss, because he is the only member of the Cabinet who does not have the cloven hoof. Nevertheless, if the right hon. Gentleman does retire after this Budget, I will personally write to the secretary of the local Labour Party and ask him to get in touch with the right hon. Gentleman. That might do some good.
  I know that hon. Members on this side of the Committee frequently refer to the plight of retirement pensioners and that may sometimes be considered a somewhat hackneyed theme, but it is a matter which ought to be pressed again and again. It does not require any apology constantly to reiterate the plight of these unfortunate people. In our constituencies, we all come across old-age pensioners who are suffering hardship and misery. We know how so often they are short of food, decent clothing and fuel and other reasonable amenities of modern life. All that is simply because there is not an adequate scheme for ensuring that they retire in comfort and dignity.
  There is a qualitative aspect of the problem. It is that present retirement pensioners belong to a special category. They are the people who, in the 1920s and 1930s, suffered the severest hardships when Conservatism treated them very harshly. They are the very people whom one would consider most deserving of the good will of the Government, but, unfortunately, they do not have it.
  Professionally, I often come across elderly people and few hon. Members are more familiar than I with the hardship and deterioration of health which they often suffer as a result of their inadequate incomes for obtaining the necessities of life. I recollect that in Ireland, in the last century, in the "Hungry Forties", it was common for people to die of starvation. At that time, Lord John Russell was Chief Secretary and Irish juries at inquests on people who had died of starvation brought in verdicts of "Wilful murder by Lord John Russell ". In many circumstances and in many cases when retirement pensioners leave this world prematurely the Government are by no means completely

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  free of guilt and completely free of having produced some contributory factors—malnutrition, lack of heat, lack of proper clothing.
  One of the most deplorable aspects, as was pointed out by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition yesterday, is that in their election manifesto the Government specifically promised to do something for retirement pensioners. They said that pensioners would share in the good things which a steadily expanding economy would bring. It is particularly unfortunate that the Government should choose retirement pensioners as the class of people to suffer from the Government's failure to keep their electoral promises. It is generally recognised in this country that promises made before elections are not regarded with the strictest exactitude, but on this occasion the failure to keep a promise is particularly mean and particularly deserving of censure.
  I now turn to a subject which is probably much more interesting to hon. Members opposite, the burden of taxation which falls on the whole community through both indirect and direct taxation, through Purchase Tax as well as Income Tax. The Government frequently suggest that they have substantially reduced Income Tax, but that is not the case. In col. 115 of HANSARD for 23rd June, last year, the Chancellor admitted that 2½ million more people paid tax in 1959– 60 than in 1950–51. In the same passage, he also admitted that the yield of Inland Revenue had increased by £494 million since 1951.
  Those are very large figures and are some indication of how the tax burden has been getting worse and worse and more and more pressing upon the community. In 1951, the yield of Purchase Tax was about £338 million and it increased to about £500 million last year, a very great increaes.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Sir Edward Boyle): The hon. Gentleman will recognise that the standard of living of the ordinary wage earner rose about 20 per cent. during the 1950s, so it is hardly surprising that the yield of tax has risen. To say, therefore, that the burden of taxation has risen equally sharply is going rather too far, because the burden of taxation is not felt
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  so strongly when the standard of living generally is rising.
  Mr. Cronin: I am not prepared to accept the suggestion that the real standard of living has increased 20 per cent. I think that that figure is erroneous. Secondly, I was talking not about how much taxation is felt, but about the actual gross amount of tax which falls on the community, and that has unquestionably increased. How much people feel it is an entirely different matter.
  I see that I have the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) with me and he appears to be using his dagger in my favour, an unusual circumstance. I always think of the hon. Member for Kidderminster as being a tiger in a fight, usually, though, with strict vegetarian principles. But now he is certainly showing his teeth and is becoming much more effective in coping with his own Front Bench.
  Mr. Ede: He is only showing them; he is not using them.
  Mr. Nabarro: It is a welcome surprise to find the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) awake in the Chamber.
  Mr. Cronin: That is a remark of extraordinary frivolity and inaccuracy.
  Miss Margaret Herbison: And not the least bit clever.
  Mr. Cronin: And typical of the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Nabarro: Speak up.
  Mr. Mitchison: Shut up.
  Mr. Cronin: The Financial Secretary may ask where the money will come from if we reduce taxation. If we reduce the Purchase Tax on clothing and household essentials—which we regard as an important step forward—it may be asked where the money will come from. Where will we find the money to reduce the lower rates of Income Tax, or even the standard rate of Income Tax? I should like the Financial Secretary to cast his mind back to the last Budget.
  On that occasion the standard rate of Income Tax was reduced by 9d. and the lower rates of Income Tax were reduced by 6d. Those reductions cost the Revenue about £229 million. Is this money available? I suggest to hon.

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  Members on both sides of the Committee that this money could be obtained by comparatively easy means. I fear that this is the point at which the hon. Member for Kidderminster and I part company, but that will not distress me unduly.
  The first and most obvious way of raising money is by a capital gains tax. I know that holds a prominent position in the demonology of the Conservative party, but there can be little doubt that it would raise a substantial sum. The Royal Commission on Income Tax, in 1920, considered the matter comparatively favourably, although it did not give a definite decision in favour of it. The Royal Commission on the Taxation of Profits and Income, in 1955, produced some very useful facts about it. The majority of the Commission dissented from the idea of a capital gains tax, very largely because they were dealing with figures which have no relevance to the contemporary situation.
  The dissenting minority of the Commission came down heavily in favour of a capital gains tax. They estimated that a capital gains tax would bring in about £200 million a year. I think that even the President of the Board of Trade, when he spoke this afternoon, was prepared to accept that a capital gains tax would bring in £50 million a year, but I do not think that one can accept that figure because when the Board of Inland Revenue put it before the Royal Commission on the Taxation of Profits and Income it was based on capital increases and decreases over the previous thirty years, and those figures have no relevance to the contemporary situation because they include the period of one of the biggest slumps in history.
  If there is any truth in the idea that Keynes' doctrines have found a comfortable niche in the Governments of the world, there can be no likelihood of such a gigantic slump occurring again. The figure of £50 million as a prospective yield from a capital gains tax is based on figures which have no relevance to the present situation. We ought, therefore, to look at figures which are more appropriate to present day conditions. We find that from 1950 to 1959 equity share values increased by £4,000 million. The Royal Commission was not cognisant of that figure when it came to its conclusions. We find, in addition, that over the last year there has been an in-
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  crease of £1,000 million in share values. Thus, over the last ten years, equity share values have increased by £5,000 million.
  It is difficult to believe that a capital gains tax would yield only £200 million. I think that its yearly yield would be very much higher. Why have the Government rejected this obvious way of increasing revenue? If they increase revenue by a capital gains tax, Purchase Tax could be reduced, the standard rate of Income Tax could be reduced, and the old-age pensioners could be given something. Anybody who is suffering financial hardship from taxation can have only this consolation, that he is assisting in the acquisition of large tax-free capital gains.
  There are certain objections to a capital gains tax. It can be argued that capital gains are often caused simply by inflation, but that argument applies also to ordinary savings, and they are not immune from inflation. Why should a person who holds large stocks of equity shares be immune?
  It has been pointed out that capital gains are affected by interest rates. That, again, affects anybody who wishes to save money at any time. Interest rates can always seriously upset, either upwards or downwards, the value of anyone's savings at any time.
  It has also been said that capital gains are often irregular and unsought, but that situation can be dealt with by taking the actual period of assessment over several years. There is, of course, the question of capital losses, and they have to be set against capital gains. Nevertheless, if one made the assessment over a period of years capital losses would easily be looked after. There is no question but that if one studies the trend of equity shares during this century there has been a steady and massive appreciation, and there can be no doubt that a capital gains tax would bring in a handsome and substantial revenue.
  I have referred so far to a capital gains tax applied to equity shares, but it could equally be applied to speculations in property. Judging by the enormous increase in property values, there is little doubt that a capital gains tax would produce more from property than it would from equity shares. We know that a capital gains tax has been operated successfully and lucratively in

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  the United States of America since Income Tax was introduced into the Federal Code in 1913. The capital gains tax has been a complete and continuous success in the United States.
  What is the difference between our economy and that of the United States which suggests that they should be treated differently? I suggest that the only difference is that we have had a preponderance of Conservative Governments over the last twenty-five years. That is the only reason why we have not had a capital gains tax. The Scandinavian countries operate a capital gains tax with success and derive a substantial income. There is no reason why a capital gains tax should not be operated in this country and used not just to cope with the mounting burden of Government expenditure, but to give tax relief to those unfortunate people who have to pay Purchase Tax, and Income Tax at reduced rates.
  I should like to consider now another possible source of Revenue. The Chancellor has increased Profits Tax to 12½ per cent. Is there not a good case for a larger increase? If one looks at the figures, one finds that the average company pays tax at a standard rate of 7s. 9d., which is 38¾ per cent., and will now pay the new tax of 12½ per cent. The total tax paid will, therefore, be 51¼ per cent. Let hon. Members visualise the position across the Atlantic, where a corporation tax of 52 per cent. is levied on all large firms. Even with the increased Profits Tax, companies in this country are taxed more lightly than their counterparts in the United States.
  The matter can be carried still further, because when a shareholder receives his dividend it is assumed that the Income Tax paid by the company is paid by him. On the other side of the Atlantic, corporation tax does not affect, except to a minor extent, the liability of the shareholder to Income Tax. The shareholder across the Atlantic is thus much more roughly treated than the shareholder in this country. It seems to me, therefore, that there is a substantial case for increasing the Profits Tax further than has been done already.
  Such an increase would not seriously interfere with investment, because initial allowances and investment allowances
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  take away much of the sting of the combined Income Tax and Profits Tax. If one looks at the financial columns of the newspapers or the Financial Times, hardly a day goes by without an announcement of a substantial increase of profits and dividends in large companies. Surely, therefore, no time could be more appropriate for a more substantial increase than 2½ per cent. in Profits Tax.
  I turn now to the question of expense accounts against Income Tax. We on this side agree that this is one of the most fantastic fiscal abuses of the age. The country is divided into two groups financially. There is the master race, those who are taxed under Schedule D, and there are their inferiors, who are taxed under Schedule E. I am speaking in purely financial terms.
  We might well look at what is said on the subject by a magazine which is not noted for its Left-wing politics. [Interruption] I am sorry that this disturbs the hon. Member for Kidderminster, but it is one's duty to refer to these matters. The Banker's Magazine of August, 1956, at page 131, in an article by Mr. Dow, Deputy-Director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, said that
  "Five per cent. of food taken in restaurants … 30 per cent. of purchases of new cars (allowing here for the sale of second-hand cars by business to persons); something like 25 per cent. of travel expenditure; and 5 per cent. of drinks "
  are expenses against Income Tax and that these alone total £300 million.
  Mr. Dow goes further. He points out that if one considers the service element of restaurants and the running costs of business cars and expenditure abroad, one arrives at a grand total of about £500 million a year in expenses which are used against Income Tax. There is, at least, scope for obtaining a substantial increase in the revenue if action were taken to reduce the abuse of business expenses.
  We have heard frequently from the Chancellor of the Exchequer and from the President of the Board of Trade that there should be moderation in wage claims. But how can they seriously expect moderation in wage claims when trade unionists see these gigantic accretions of untaxed profit to a select and limited number of individuals? Bearing in mind that the people who obtain these

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  tax-free accretions of income form the core of the Conservative Party—for that very reason, I see that there is considerable irritation and impatience on the other side of the Committee—for the Government to ask for restraint in wage claims is rather like Billy Bunter emerging gorged from the tuck shop and saying that tuck is no good for the boys.
  One of the more unhappy aspects of the Budget is that nothing is being done to increase capital investment. We are lagging seriously behind the rest of Europe and all the other countries as a consequence. Savings are clearly inadequate. Perhaps one of the reasons is that a lot is being spent on armaments. There is a lack of confidence on the part of the business community, which certainly will not increase its capital equipment to the extent which is necessary.
  The Government are doing nothing helpful to increase the amount of capital investment. We have an investment allowance, but there would certainly be a strong case for having differential investment allowances to ensure that capital investment was channelled into the right and most helpful directions for the community.
  Another unattractive aspect of the economic position is that the balance of payments situation is steadily deteriorating. If one looks around, one finds that the United Kingdom's share of world trade is steadily diminishing and that Germany is becoming a particularly impressive competitor. The Trades Union Congress suggested to the Chancellor that there should be a public inquiry into why our export trade was not improving. There is little doubt that a public inquiry into sales technique, relative prices, delivery dates, quality, design and trade terms would be helpful. The T.U.C. also suggested the setting-up of an exports production council to assist in the export drive. This suggestion also has been turned down by the Government. One of the distinctions of the Budget is that it has turned down without exception every recommendation made to it by the Trades Union Congress.
  If one turns to some of the minor items in the Budget, it is not clear why the Chancellor has reduced the duty on all heavy wines. There is certainly a
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  case for reducing the duty on port, in view of the desirability of bringing Portugal into the European Free Trade Association without undue handicaps in trade, but why do we have to have a reduced duty on the other heavy wines, such as sherry? Why do we have to have a reduced duty on wines imported in bottle? As both sides of the Committee know, wines imported in bottle are usually the finest and the most expensive. The chateau-bottled clarets and the domain-bottled Burgundy, for example, are wines which are particularly delicious and expensive.
  Mr. C. Osborne: Will the hon. Member tell that to his old-age pensioners next time he goes to them for their votes?
  Mr. Cronin: I am glad that the hon. Member made that suggestion. It would certainly be of interest to the old-age pensioners in my constituency to know that although nothing was done for them in the Budget, something was being done for those connoisseurs of wine who drink only the finest wines which are imported in bottle.
  Lastly—
  Mr. Nabarro: And in conclusion.
  Mr. Cronin: I ought to reassure the hon. Member for Kidderminster that, so far, I have only been making preliminary remarks.
  The cessation of the tax-free compensation for directors is a bit of Socialist policy which we have been advocating for a long time and we must congratulate the Chancellor on adopting it. But I have the feeling that he has omitted to cope with another serious piece of fiscal privilege for these members of the community, and that is the top-hat pension scheme. The directors of large companies will still avoid taxation on an enormous scale by means of top hat pension schemes.
  We shall watch closely the coming Finance Bill provisions for tax avoidance by hobby farmers, but, so far, we feel that these provisions are of the greatest value. The same situation applies to dividend stripping, but there is a vast virgin forest of tax avoidance which has not yet been touched by reforms. We hope to induce the Government to go further in that direction.

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  It is difficult to understand why the Government have made things easier for gifts inter vivos. One of the most curious situations is the very large reduction in the yield from death duties although there is a great increase in capital value. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept that since 1948, at least, there has been a fall of 21 per cent. in the yield from death duties from British securities which have formed part of an estate and that during that period British securities have increased by 64 per cent. It does not make sense that the death duty yield should decrease while securities have increased enormously in value.
  One of the disappointing things about the Budget is the reference by the Chancellor to the Iron and Steel Holding Realisation Agency. I will not go into that in detail, but, obviously it is a disappointment. This concept of restoring everything possible from public ownership in the steel industry is dug up from the deepest subterranean layers of Conservative thought and one cannot achieve any effective purpose by bringing it to the surface now.
  I am seriously concerned that nothing more has been done about hydrocarbon oils. Nothing has been done to deal with the real difficulties facing the coal industry. We are in the absurd position of having an almost unlimited supply of coal in these islands, yet oil is given an enormous advantage as a fuel.
  Mr. C. Osborne: On a point of order, Sir Samuel. May I ask your guidance? In view of the fact that the protest has been made so many times by backbenchers about Privy Councillors speaking for long periods, and that at least 20 hon. Members wish to take part in the debate, is it possible for you to appeal to the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin), who has been speaking for 40 minutes, to curtail his speech?
  The Temporary Chairman (Sir Samuel Storey): That is not a point of order.
  Mr. Cronin: I am sorry that the content of my speech causes so much dismay to the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Osborne). I fully realise that all these things are very unpalatable and that they touch the pockets of the wealthy members of the community. It is a painful
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  duty to have to say disagreeable things, but one is handing out very unattractive and nasty medicine and there is no way of making these things attractive.
  One of the most absurd features of the Budget speech was the muttered threat about a monetary policy. Are we once again to have the brakes applied to the economic advance of the community? Goodness knows, we had complete and absolute stagnation of investment and production in 1957 and 1958. In 1959, there was some advance. Is there now to be a further application of brakes? I warn the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that the country is becoming seriously disturbed by the tendency of Conservative Governments to use monetary measures to diminish production, investment and employment. That is the stock Conservative concept of a cure for inflation and, of course, it holds the country back. We know that the amount we spend on investment per head of the population and our production figures are the lowest in Europe and certainly among the lowest in the industrial countries of the world.
  One matter upon which no one has yet commented, but which I consider of some importance, is what is to happen about the Finance Bill. It would be nice to have a reassurance from the Financial Secretary on the subject. Is the Finance Bill to be debated in a Standing Committee, or will it be debated on the Floor of the House? We know that the Chancellor is experiencing great difficulty. The noble Lord the Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke), the hon. Member for Kidderminster and several other hon. Members opposite are proposing to make a lot of trouble, and it will be difficult to hush them up.
  Are we to have the Committee stage discussions on the Finance Bill taken partly in a Standing Committee, or will all the discussions take place on the Floor of the House? The Leader of the House hinted during the debate on procedure that part of the discussions might take place in a Standing Committee. I warn the right hon. Gentleman that that would rouse the greatest opposition from hon. Members on this side of the Committee.
  The Government are spending nearly one-third of the income of the country

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  and it is essential that Government spending, and the means taken to meet it, should be debated on the Floor of the House and in full view of members of the public. I hope that the Financial Secretary will give us some reassurance about that.
  At the time of this Budget we find ourselves facing a sombre scene. Europe is now divided economically into two groups which are engaged in a trade war that will certainly grow worse. We find that our capital investment is greatly diminished and those gigantic industrial countries, the United States, Germany and Russia, are towering over us. China is overtaking us. These are grave circumstances, and I ask the Committee to consider whether this Budget will make any contribution towards the solution of those problems.
  7.58 p.m.
  Lady Tweedsmuir: The hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin) made a speech which covered such a wide range that I find great difficulty in recalling his main theme. However, I remember the first five minutes of his speech when he spoke about the Conservative Party which in his view had not reduced taxation. I will merely say briefly that when we took office in 1951, 31 per cent. of the national product was taxed and now the figure is only 25 per cent.
  I wish to deal with the industrial prospects that this Budget will or will not encourage. Yesterday my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer told us that 60 per cent. of the economy was in a condition of great prosperity, a boom condition, and that there was a shortage of labour. I wish to talk about the other 40 per cent. I think it very likely that some of the most important measures which may be taken in the future are not included in this Budget. In particular, I refer to the remark by the Chancellor that he would be ready at any time—as I think he implied—to put on a credit squeeze. Now we are told that the object of the Budget is to secure price stability and continued expansion without inflation. Therefore, I think one must pose the questions: what effect will this have on the areas of high unemployment, and will this Budget in fact achieve its object?
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  The President of the Board of Trade, in his opening speech today, talked about what he called the unbalance of the economy and of how some solution would have to be found. It is in this context that I should like to examine the position that is before us. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in reviewing the past year and in forecasting future prospects, paid tribute to what he called a striking policy of expansion. Therefore, I am very glad that the Chancellor has not sought to discourage or to dampen down the economy by fiscal means more than he has.
  Without doubt the present position has helped to some degree the unemployment areas, wherever they are found, and, of course, I refer particularly to Scotland. The problem of the boom areas, mostly in the Midlands, has meant that many employers have sought skilled men and women from Scotland, and also the negative powers of the Board of Trade have meant that in these boom conditions some industries have sought, and are seeking, to establish themselves in the development districts.
  We know perfectly well the problems of the Chancellor. We have decided here in Parliament that we will take one-quarter of our national income for defence, education and the social services. That does not take into account the very large expenditure on roads, transport and other services which we here have all agreed are necessary. It is quite true that in those parts which are outwith the areas of boom we are taking great advantage of industrial development, particularly on roads, and also, in Scotland, on such measures as the steel strip mill, and we are hoping that much more will come from the Local Employment Act.
  As the Clydesdale Bank Review said in March, speaking about the position in Scotland:
  "There is a steady increase in employment of men and resources which may be looked for in the months ahead."
  Therefore, one is bound to ask whether this Budget, timed at this moment, will in fact help in a situation which is a difficult, struggling one, to remodel industries in those areas and to attract new ones.
  I am very glad that the Chancellor has left the investment allowances as they are. I would have liked to see them

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  increased if they were coupled with the development districts. I welcome the measures taken to improve savings. Obviously, all this will help. But I question whether it is wise to increase taxation at this time. It seems to me that the Chancellor has been unable to resist carrying out what Colbert calls the art of taxation, that consists in so plucking the goose as to procure the greatest quantity of feathers with the least possible amount of hissing.
  However that may be, it is always easy to impose a tax. The other day the Chancellor of the Exchequer, speaking in a television programme, said that he put the tax on tobacco because it was a direct tax on spending and he said, in answer to a question, that it would have been very wrong to tax earnings. He repeated that it would be very wrong to tax earnings. I ask the Committee how one would describe the Profits Tax except as a direct tax on earnings. It seems to me that we in this country have not yet decided as a Parliament, irrespective of party, that success is respectable.
  I think that this Profits Tax may very well defeat its own ends, because the investment allowances which are given to industry mean that the products which are encouraged by these investment allowances are just coming to fruition when Profits Tax is imposed or increased. I suggest to the Committee that this is psychologically very discouraging indeed. I should have thought that at this moment when we have, as the President of the Board of Trade said, this unbalance in the economy, the Chancellor could have afforded to have more of a standstill Budget and not to give what I consider to be a direct discouragement.
  I also question whether these forms of taxation designed to restrict consumer expenditure are not in themselves inflationary, because they reduce funds for businesses which will probably be raised by other means, or it is very likely that prices will be increased and the burden will be cast on to the consumer. The hon. Member for Loughborough who has now left the Chamber, said that the total tax on industry was about 50 per cent. I suppose that one could argue that the 2½ per cent.
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  increase could be absorbed by the majority of industry, but I suggest that the only argument at this time in favour of the increased Profits Tax is that it strengthens the Chancellor's hand when he calls for earnings and salary restraint.
  I am very concerned with its effect in the development districts. I think that here the Chancellor has been unwise and that he should consider some measure whereby he could have some form of tax reduction or tax allowance, or no increase in Profits Tax, which is related to the development districts and for a particular purpose, provided that it was for a period of time.
  This is not in fact an unusual procedure. I was fortunate enough in January and February to visit Australia again, and that part of the Northern Territory where there are great geographical difficulties, great difficulties of climate, and great problems of distance from raw materials and from the main markets. There, for a period of years, the Government gave a form of tax allowance to industries which were prepared to establish themselves in those very uneconomic conditions. Even today there is a direct personal tax allowance for anyone who works and lives in those areas for a period of time. If all that can be done in a country such as Australia, which has such outstanding economic development at this time, I should have thought that it was well worth considering in relation to the unbalance in our economy.
  I should like to say in relation to any future action which the Chancellor may think he might like to take to curb consumer expenditure that I hope he will not reduce imports into this country that would have a very bad effect on any increased industrial expansion which we hope for in the North. May I again take the example of Australia, because it has great problems of inflation, yet everyone will acknowledge that its production is increasing by leaps and bounds. It has vast public expenditure on basic services, on houses and on roads. It has an enormous immigration population of over 1 million in the last ten years, and it has a wage system which in many cases is automatically tied to the cost of living. Therefore, this is potentially a very inflationary situation. What has Australia done? Steadily over the years

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  it has increased the imports into the country, so that now 90 per cent. are free, in order to allow the breeze of competition to blow against industries and so to steady the price structure and to increase production.
  When the Chancellor talks of the necessity for exports, there are for enterprising manufacturers in this country enormous opportunities in Australia. We are Australia's best customer and we are easily still her best exporter of capital. Capital goes to Australia because the Government there are prepared to assist capital. Even when faced with this inflationary position, they do not increase tax on profits and earnings of companies which have established themselves. On the contrary, in the last Budget in August, they took off 1s. in the £A from the total tax liable to be paid by the individual. It was called the "1s. tax reduction ". Their view is that, despite the inflation in the economy, the increased spending power brought about by these reductions will be offset by the far greater production which will come about through the encouragement and confidence given to industry as a whole.
  I do not suggest that at this time we should reduce taxes, but I feel that we would have been wiser to have had a more standstill Budget when there is this great imbalance in the economy between the booming Midlands and the areas of very high unemployment. Lastly, it is all summed up by the statement that, if we in the country and in the House of Commons believe in the future industrial expansion of Britain, we must make our fiscal policy fit in with our beliefs and be quite sure that we think that success is respectable.
  8.12 p.m.
  Mr. James Dempsey: This week I have seen for the first time the presentation of the nation's Budget. I paid particular attention to its submission by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to the presentation of the Opposition's reaction by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. I even noted, among other things, the exhibitionism of the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). This week it has been quite an experience for me to be a Member of the House of Commons.
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  I repeat that I paid very close attention to the speech and to the various proposals made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but as a new Member I felt rather disturbed that action which could have been taken was not taken to introduce certain reforms for the benefit of the nation. As one of the candidates at the General Election, I was led to believe that the country had never had it so good, that our gold and dollar reserves were sound, that our export trade was second to none, and that the wheels of industry were turning like well-oiled machines and producing the goods and services which were making Britain mighty. These were the stories to which I listened.
  I can remember the slogan of the Conservative candidate and the Conservative Party in my constituency. It was, "We have prosperity. Trust Harold, and it will continue". I am very happy to be here tonight, knowing that my constituency did not trust him. Indeed, I am delighted to say this evening that not even Scotland trusted him. It is obvious that there must be a sound reason why the people of Scotland rejected "Harold" at the last election. I do not intend to delay the Committee unduly, but I want to refer to some of the reasons.
  When the Budget statement was submitted, I noticed miscellaneous ways in which we are to raise income during the current year. I paid particular attention to the important suggestions. I was not surprised at the decision to extend the post-war credit rebates, because I knew that the Opposition had been hammering for that reform for many years. Indeed, outside the House of Commons not only the Labour movement but many public organisations have demanded the same concession. I regarded that important statement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer at a tribute to the Opposition. It was glaring evidence of the old philosophy of the constant dripping of water wearing away the stone of resistance.
  I was also happy to note that, at last, greater minds had been brought to bear in the Treasury on the removal of cinemas from the Entertainments Duty. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman must have had in mind the fact that not only in villages, but in many towns in

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  Scotland of which I can speak with authority, where many cinemas have been closed, he actually contributed to the elimination of one of the most traditional forms of enjoyment and entertainment possessed by the local community. The cinema industry is at present organising Sunday-night club entertainments to try to keep cinemas going in large towns and villages. It is compelled to do so because of the past effect of the Entertainments Duty on the industry. I was convinced that if the representations from all quarters throughout the country made themselves sufficiently felt the Chancellor of the Exchequer would grant that concession.
  I have heard it argued that, looking at the situation generally, the Budget is a standstill Budget. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] Even if that statement is nonsense, with which I entirely disagree, it is being made. I cannot accept the implications in the statement, because of certain assertions made by the Chancellor. He warned us of the balance of payments problem. Inherent in that warning were warnings of possible steps to be taken in the event of an adverse situation arising. I paid special attention to his remarks about the levels of personal consumption. I wondered what was implied in that, because we have had experience in the past of the implications of such a saying. Are we being prepared, in the Budget statement, for a Britain in which "we do not have it so good," probably before the end of this fiscal year?
  Talk about the level of consumption carries with it many consequencies. It infers the possibility of a wage freeze, as was mentioned by one of my hon. Friends. It carries with it the possibility of other squeezes, such as the credit squeeze. It infers that there could be a capital investment freeze. That is not a standstill Budget. It seems to contain warnings of intending bad. I hope that I am wrong, but I must remember that the policy before a General Election is always different from—sometimes it is fundamentally opposed to—the policy after a General Election. We are dealing with the after-element of the last General Election, which makes me suspicious.
  That would be a very dangerous road for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to
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  take. The position is serious enough in Scotland without talking about a credit squeeze and inferring that there may be contraction in capital investment. We have enough unemployed at present without the Government putting more people out of work. I should like someone on the Front Bench to tell us the implications of that warning.
  I noted particularly the announcement of the reduction in the duty on wines. That does not affect me, because I do not drink wine, and I am sure that millions of other people do not drink wine and are not likely to gain any benefit from this. It seems to be a contradiction in terms to hint, on the one hand, that the Government will control personal expenditure and the amount of money available for purchasing goods and services and, on the other, to make more money available by reducing the price of wines. We are making it available to those who least need it, but we could have made it available to those who need it most.
  This Budget will probably be regarded as the "cheaper wines and dearer smokes" Budget. The increase in the Tobacco Duty will cause consternation. It is rather tragic that the old-age pensioners should have had their tobacco tokens withdrawn two years ago and should now be asked to pay more for their tobacco and cigarettes.
  The Chancellor did not even mention some of the policies that I should like to see adopted. Local authorities are very much affected by Stamp Duty. It costs the large authorities a very considerable amount and quite a substantial sum is paid in that way by the smaller ones. The Chancellor could have reduced that duty. I do not know how much is involved here, but local authorities believe it to be a substantial total throughout the United Kingdom. The right hon. Gentleman might consider a reduction in this tax.
  I was very intrigued by the right hon. Gentleman's reference to the need to see our resources more fully utilised. Hon. Members representing Scottish constituencies know that we have more than 90,000 such "resources" who are unemployed and who are not being fully utilised. It would be sensible to utilise them to increase the production of the wealth of the nation because, apart from

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  producing goods and services for export, and for consumption at home, we would also get tax revenue, directly and indirectly, from the employment of those labour resources existing north of the Cheviot Hills, and economise in the payment of unemployment and other benefits.
  I am sorry that the Chancellor made no special reference to that problem. I am glad to see that the President of the Board of Trade is here with us. He and the Chancellor should recognise that this is a special problem. I am sure that the President of the Board of Trade is coming round to that view. Only last week we had a meeting in Glasgow— it was practically a Scottish Parliament —agreeing to send an all-party deputation to meet the Prime Minister—
  Mr. Bence: There were a lot of absentees, though.
  Mr. Dempsey: —to ask him to stimulate enterprise, drive and initiative so that these resources may be fully employed for the betterment of the nation. I would be glad to know that that is to be the attitude to this social problem, and that if there are not sufficient funds in the Board of Trade "kitty" the Chancellor will make them available for this special purpose.
  Attending my first Budget day in this House, I had thought that because of the booming Britain which we are told now exists we might have had some Purchase Tax reductions. Different treatment could be accorded to items bought once in a lifetime and to those purchased month by month—especially household goods. I thought that the Chancellor might have made some effort to give some relief to the overburdened housewife—
  Mr. Nabarro: Hear, heat.
  Mr. Dempsey: It is very encouraging to have support for this plea from the benches opposite. Instead of hearing the hon. Member for Kidderminster saying "Hear, hear" I had expected the old question, "Where will the money come from?" My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has pointed out that we shall have £320 million more this year. Where did that come from? It did not come by waving a wand, nor did it drop from the heavens. It came
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  from the people who produce and distribute our wealth and goods. If we can find a sum like that in one year, we ought to be able to find enough to give greatly needed relief to the housewife.
  I know that the Chancellor intends to take action over business expenses, but will he be willing to go far enough? The total cost of hospitality given to and by business executives, their friends and the like is substantial. I remember that a few years ago the Government increased the cost of school meals by Id.—interfering with the "tummies" of innocent little school children—while allowing tax evasion to continue on a large scale. When that happened I felt that the Government had failed in their duty to the nation.
  We have ample opportunities to raise the revenue that the country needs. One has only to go to different parts of the country to find hotels crammed at lunch time with business executives entertaining their guests, their trading interests, their administrators and all the rest of them. The Chancellor should leave no loopholes there, but should ensure that those who are earning the money are adequately taxed. Not only will he be guaranteeing the nation that that loophole is closed, but the so-called patriots of industry will need to be patriotic also by ceasing to be tax evaders.
  I join the chorus of appeals from this side of the Committee, and, indeed, in one or two cases, from the benches opposite on behalf of old-age pensioners. There are thousands of old-age pensioners in my constituency and I know their circumstances well. It would be very remiss of me if I did not press their claim. When I decided to raise this matter, I came across a statement made by the Prime Minister. At the beginning of the year, in his New Year message, the right hon. Gentleman said that the country could look forward to a continuation of prosperity which should be used to expand wealth in which all sections of the community could share.
  We learn in this Budget that we are to be about £320 million better off this year, yet there is no mention of any share for the old-age pensioners. Are they not a section of the community, too? According to the Prime Minister, every section of the community is to

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  share in Britain's progress. This is another promise made and broken by this Government. The Prime Minister went on to say:
  "We have given a pledge to the old-age pensioners in this respect, and we will keep it."
  This Budget is a deplorable contradiction of the Prime Minister's own words. Within four months of the pledge being given, the promise-makers have become the promise-breakers. This is a very regrettable record. The Government will be greatly discredited in the eyes of retirement pensioners and other sections of our society who have the welfare of the old folks at heart; they will arouse great opposition and dissatisfaction. Only a week ago it was admitted in the House that the £2 10s. pension in terms of 1946 prices was worth only 3s. 8d. more than it was nine years ago. These are figures quoted by the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance which can be read in HANSARD.
  If one deducts the value of the tobacco token concession, that little increase is reduced to about 5d. a week—a disgraceful record for any Government claiming to represent our Christian civilisation in Britain. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and his Cabinet colleagues ought at once to face the implications of the pledge their leader gave last January to the nation.
  We must remember that when we speak of retirement pensioners we are speaking of 5 million people who are eking out a poor existence as best they can. If we have any millions of pounds to spare, it should go to them rather than to the wine consumers or the wine producers. The Budget has failed lamentably to meet this very deserving need.
  I have listened to most of the speeches which have been made during the past two days. I am convinced that a Budget which, after all, plans for the next year the distribution of the nation's resources, can never succeed unless that distribution takes into account the need to employ those who are unemployed and who are anxious to work. It must provide the means whereby they may have an opportunity to develop and use their talents and productive capacities. A Budget which fails to make this provision shows a startling omission. More-
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  over, in any distribution of the results of the nation's productivity the most deserving section, the old-age pensioners, should receive their fair slice of the national cake.
  A Budget which fails to do this is a Budget of failure. I trust that, as a result of continual pressure, we can look forward to a solution of Scotland's unemployment problem, on the one hand, and to an adequate pension on which old-age pensioners can live—not just exist—on the other.
  8.35 p.m.
  Mr. Gerald Nabarro: I am pleased to be called quite late in this debate, for the Chancellor of the Exchequer has now returned to his place, having appropriately fortified himself for the rigours of the next twenty to twenty-five minutes. The Chancellor was in a position to take appropriate stimulant yesterday. My speech will not be so lengthy, and I shall not attempt anything of a stimulating character. I start in the most charitable possible fashion, having regard to the circumstances.
  In the very limited sector of agreement between the Chancellor and myself, I am able to welcome one or two of my right hon. Friend's proposals. I welcome the sweeping away of the last vestige of Entertainments Duty upon the cinema. I welcome the modest Income Tax reliefs which my right hon. Friend has been able to give, and the post-war credit proposals. I welcome in manifold forms the action he is taking with regard to tax avoidance. I am not a hobby farmer. I am not a bond washer. I am not a dividend stripper. These practices do exist, and, as they are fraudulent in character in my view, I am delighted that the Chancellor has been able to take these steps, although I must say that I do not think that any very great sum is entailed. I also welcome the very modest and restricted relief which my right hon. Friend is giving in respect of Estate Duty covenants.
  There I part company from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I say it literally that the sector of agreement between the Chancellor and myself on this occasion is very small and limited. I disagree with many of the fundamentals upon which his Budget propositions are

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  based. I particularly feel queasy—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] My stomach is in poor order as a result of the Chancellor's behaviour in a strictly party political sense.
  I make this analogy between 1960 and 1955. In 1955, the Conservative Party, led by Sir Anthony Eden, was returned to the House with a majority of nearly 60. We came back from the hustings, in the full flush of victory, early in June of that year, largely re-elected on a ticket of continuing reductions of taxation. Within four months, an autumn Budget which slapped up taxes was introduced. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] The cacophony from the benches opposite will not be unusual in the ears of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. He suffered the same thing yesterday when he resumed his seat—stony silence from the Tory benches and a cacophony from the benches opposite.
  I was not particularly pleased with the then Chancellor in 1955, although I was persuaded not to vote against the autumn "pots and pans" Budget of that year, in spite of feeling the position very keenly. I had crusaded all over the country—and "crusaded" is the proper word. I had stumped the country—a latter-day version of Richard Oastler— advocating continued tax reliefs. I am therefore not a little dismayed that there has been a repetition of these events in the last few weeks—and I am choosing my words very carefully tonight.
  In October, 1959, the Conservative Party was returned to this House with a substantially larger majority—a majority of more than 100. Although many factors contributed to the large Conservative victory at that time, my assessment of the position—and I believe that it was the assessment of professional psephologists—was that the principal contributory factor was the Prime Minister's assurance that there would be continuing reductions in taxation. In this Budget the Chancellor has seen fit to raise taxes very considerably. I thought that once, in 1955. was bad politically; I think that twice in five years is disgraceful politically.
  I am sorry that I have amused the Chancellor. He is laughing so loudly that I must be amusing him. I wrote before the Budget, I said on television before the Budget and I said on radio
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  before the Budget, that if, after the assurances given last October, the Chancellor of the Exchequer chose deliberately to flaunt public opinion and raise taxes in this Budget, it would be an act of political turpitude, and I repeat that charge this evening. It is an act of political turpitude.
  That is why, for the first time in at least two decades, about 12 Government supporters—I am not sure of the exact number — yesterday spontaneously reacted to the Chancellor's Budget, as a matter of fundamental principle, by sitting on these benches and refusing to vote. My noble Friend the hon. Member for Dorset, South (Viscount Hinchingbrooke) and myself, and many other of my hon. Friends who will doubtless speak in this debate, have been called rebellious for doing so. We have been called mutinous. I do not consider that to adhere closely to the political principles that one has espoused prior to one's election to this House is a matter of mutinous or rebellious behaviour. On the contrary, there is a deep cleavage between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and myself. The Chancellor thinks that he is right; I think that I am right.
  Mr. Charles Pannell: The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) is more right than the Chancellor.
  Mr. Nabarro: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) for saying that I am more right than the Chancellor. I do not claim that, but I claim that the framing of Budgets and propositions in the fiscal sense is largely a matter of judgment. I am glad to see that my right hon. Friend so warmly agrees with me. I do not consider that the Chancellor's judgment on this occasion has been sound.
  I have said that the Chancellor has raised taxes very considerably. He has been guilty of sins of omission and of commission. The sins of omission are a deliberate failure, in the Economic Survey and in his Budget speech yesterday, to draw attention to the unloading of Government expenditure on local authorities, which are now faced with having to raise local rates all over the country. It is highly embarrassing to the Chancellor to hear that from one of his hon. Friends. It is highly embarrassing to him to hear me say that I searched

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  the Economic Survey from cover to cover and could find no reference to local rates, but that my assessment of their increase, aggregated in respect of the forthcoming year, is approximately £50 million. The Chancellor has increased direct taxes by £72 in a full year. He would be more honest and less disingenuous if he told the nation that in this Budget he is raising taxes by a total of £122 million.
  I ask every Member of the Committee this evening to consider within the context of local rates that this is not only a matter of domestic hereditaments which are facing an increase in the rates poundage. When my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer talks about additional taxation for industry, would he consider the triple effect of, first, a large increase in rating valuation upon industrial hereditaments about two years ago, and second, the reduction of the volume of derating from 75 per cent. to 50 per cent., which doubles the first factor to which I referred? And as in many instances the valuation of industrial hereditaments has sprung up by as much as four times for rating purposes. I find many industrial concerns paying eight times as much in rates as they were two to three years ago, and that is a direct addition to their taxation in exactly the same sense as the Profits Tax.
  Why did not my right hon. Friend warn the Committee of that fact both in the Economic Survey and in his Budget speech yesterday? There have been big increases in industrial taxation Let me compare them with the influences which have been at work in the last twelve months. In April, 1959, the Chancellor of the Exchequer reduced taxes by, so far as I am aware, the largest single measure of tax reduction in any Budget in peace time. A sum of £360 million was lopped off taxes, and what has resulted?
  Mr. Bence: The party opposite won the election.
  Mr. Nabarro: That is in the political sense, and I am not afraid to deal with that later. I am talking in the economic sense for the moment.
  A sum of £360 million came off taxes and three things have resulted. The first
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  was an increase in production of 10 per cent. The second was an increase in the volume of exports of 14 per cent. The third was an increase in personal savings of 15 per cent., and in that 15 per cent. is included an increase in National Savings of no less than 20 per cent. I do not wish to over-use the word "records", but I hope that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will note these facts and have careful regard to them.
  Never before in the history of this nation have we increased production in a single year by 10 per cent. Never before in the history of the nation have we increased the volume of exports in a single year by 14 per cent. Never before in the history of the nation have we increased personal savings by 15 per cent. I believe passionately that all of these desirable results have flowed from the policy last April of reducing drastically the incidence and the level of taxation. I believe that they are most largely a direct result of that policy, but what are the budgetary considerations? I hope that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is drawing such an elaborate doodle on his knees in front of me—he is now drawing that addled egg laid on his window sill—
  Mr. Bence: It is not an egg; it is a moustachio.
  Mr. Nabarro: May I please continue? I was hoping that the Chancellor would write down on a piece of paper—
  Mr. C. Pannell: On a point of order. In view of the fact, Sir William, that there seems to be a document circulating between the Chancellor and hon. Gentlemen opposite, should it not be laid on the Table?
  The Deputy-Chairman (Major Sir William Anstruther-Gray): It had occurred to me that both hon. and right hon. Members should address themselves to the Chair at all times during debate.
  Mr. Nabarro: I am grateful to you, Sir William. May I continue with the figures, which are of a serious character, which I was about to give?
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in April, 1959, budgeted for an above-the-line surplus of £102 million. He achieved an above-the-line surplus of £386 million. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in April, 1959, budgeted for an overall

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  deficit of £721 million, and he achieved an overall deficit of £314 million. So really he had an above-the-line surplus nearly four times as much as he had budgeted for and he had an overall deficient of less than one-half of his Budget figure. The margin of inaccuracy of the Treasury on the above-the-line surplus was as to four times and the margin of inaccuracy as to the overall deficit was a mere matter of £407 million. When one achieves—and I use the word "achieves" sardonically in this connection—margins of error of that kind, my faith in Treasury advice is destroyed.
  The Chancellor, in April, 1959, was so wildly inaccurate in his Budgetary statement that I thought it a masterpiece of under-statement when he used these words in his Budget statement of this year. Yesterday, he said:
  "Any burden of remorse I may feel for the inaccuracy of my marksmanship is, I own, somewhat lightened by consideration of the benefit which has accrued to the public purse." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th April, 1960; Vol 621, c. 34.]
  I wonder if the Chancellor—I see that he is nodding his head—would have been so sanguine about matters if his margin of error, as it might well have been, had operated in the opposite direction. I have no confidence in Treasury budgeting after reading such wildly inaccurate figures as were contained in the Budget of last year.
  That brings me to a matter of equal importance. The Chancellor has said that it is necessary for him to raise taxes in order to restrict spending or to place a restraint upon spending or to curb spending. I think that the effect of his raising taxes is not likely to affect spending at all. I think that spending will remain at the same level, if not increase, and that what it will affect is savings. The Chancellor will get a lesser volume of savings and a level of spending at least equal to what he had in the last year.
  I think that having regard to the position as it exists today, there is room in the economy for very substantial tax reliefs this year. I do not accept the view that tax reliefs would be inflationary. I take the view that as a result of our experiences in 1959-60, and even discounting the wild inaccuracies of the Chancellor in his Budget statement last
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  year, a relief in taxation would have two important effects. The first is that it would continue to stimulate the level of personal savings. The second is that it would provide those incentives so necessary for a continuing rise in the level of production and productivity. Putting on extra taxation has exactly the opposite effect.
  I hope that the Chancellor is not going to quarrel with those principles, for they are the same principles as he himself used to enunciate from the benches opposite when he was a private Member in Opposition. He used to say then that the way to gat bigger production and bigger productivity—attacking the Socialist Government on this side—was to provide the incentives springing from reduced taxation. Now that he is on these benches he says the opposite—
  Mr. Bence: He is the Government now.
  Mr. Nabarro: Yes, he is the Government, and that is why his statement yesterday was received in stony silence by his own side of the Committee and why all the cheers came from the Socialist Opposition. It was precisely for that reason, his failure to curb Government expenditure and his failure to curb the extravagant rate of investment in nationalised industries. All are contained within the considerations of this Budget.
  If the Chancellor of the Exchequer practises Socialist spending and Socialist philosophy in his year of office, he can expect to be placed in the inevitable position of bringing in a Socialist Budget, and that is what he has done this time. I strongly disapprove of the increases in taxation. I believe that the interests of our economy, without strain to the balance of payments—for reasons I am prepared to explain in a moment—would have been best served by a modest but widespread reduction of taxation under five heads.
  The first would have been 3d. off the standard rate of Income Tax. The second would have been the total abolition of Schedule A tax on owner-occupied houses. I shall be quite candid about Schedule A tax. I said that before the last General Election, and I followed it up at a crowded meeting in my constituency by telling several hundred listeners that I have never paid Schedule A tax since the day I owned a house, which was the day I was married, to be

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  greeted by a loud voice from the back of the hall asking "How do you fiddle it, chum?". This launched me on a dissertation as to how to claim maintenance relief, properly balanced over five years, in order to attract the maximum maintenance relief on the Schedule A assessment, which results in the house owner paying no Schedule A tax at all. The fact is, and I am sure I carry hon. Gentlemen opposite with me, that if every home owner was properly instructed by the Inland Revenue and others as to how to make a maintenance claim for Schedule A, the Chancellor would not collect the £34 million from 7 million home owners that he collects this year. He would not get any of it.
  Mr. Marcus Lipton: How did the hon. Gentleman get out of it during the first four years of home ownership?
  Mr. Nabarro: The hon. Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton) has just come in. Perhaps he would allow me to make my speech? The fact is that £34 million would be the cost of abolishing Schedule A on 7 million homes. It should have been the second item in the Chancellor's Budget. The third should have been further progress towards consolidation of the Purchase Tax. Here I draw the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to his statement last November, when he used these words:
  "… I have recommended to Parliament, and Parliament has approved, a reduction of something like £120 million in Purchase Tax…"
  I hope that my right hon. Friend will write that on his spare sheet of paper. He claimed £120 million in Purchase Tax reductions. If I were an American comic I should say "Oh, yeah?" Let me give the Chancellor the sums he has raised from Purchase Tax in the last few years.
  In the tax year 1958, he raised £494 million from Purchase Tax. In 1959 he raised £498 million. In 1960 he raised £501 million, and in the current year my estimate is that he will raise a sum of £535 million. For the benefit of the Committee, because this is an important point which I hope will not be lost, I repeat—in 1958, £494 million; in 1959, £498 million; in 1960, £501 million; in 1961, £535 million. I repeat also to the
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  Committee the Chancellor's proud boast on 10th November:
  "…I have recommended to Parliament, and Parliament has approved, a reduction of something like £120 million in Purchase Tax …"
  —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th November. 1959; Vol. 613, c. 177.]
  All the Chancellor has done has been progressively to increase Purchase Tax, yet claim mendaciously to the House and the country that he has reduced it.
  Hon. Members: Oh.
  The Deputy-Chairman: I am not sure if I heard the word "mendaciously". If I did, it would not have been a proper word to use.
  Mr. Nabarro: I apologise to you, Sir William, and to the Chancellor at once.
  Mr. C. Pannell: I am interested in that expression in so far as I once used it. I claim a precedent from when Mr. Clynes used it to Mr. Baldwin. It passed the Chair in 1926 and since then it has had honourable usage in the House of Commons.
  The Deputy-Chairman: That may or may not be so, but I do not like the word in Parliamentary usage in the Committee.
  Mr. Nabarro: I unreservedly withdraw the word and accept your rebuke, Sir William. I apologise for having used the word, and I substitute the words "gross inaccuracy". In fact, the Chancellor's claim, or boast, to have reduced Purchase Tax by £120 million is only as wildly inaccurate as his budgeting last year, the margins of error being not dissimilar in character. That is why I have little confidence in his Budget proposals and his taxation increases at the present time.
  The fourth proposal should have been that the commencement level of Surtax be raised from £2,000 to £3,000, a bonus for brains. [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Brixton thinks that is funny, may I point out to him that if he looks up the number of scientists, technicians, teachers, and doctors who left Britain in 1958 to seek their living in the Commonwealth and foreign countries, he will not find the figure very amusing. These men very largely—not entirely— leave this country because of the less onerous burden of taxation in the countries of their destination. I hope that

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  next year the Chancellor will accept that advice, which obviously is so warmly supported by many of my hon. Friends.
  Fifth and last, I make to him a proposition in connection with Profits Tax. Profits Tax is highly inflationary. The addition of 2½ per cent. to the Profits Tax will simply mean that a large number of companies with a steady record of profits will recoup the increase in Profits Tax by an approximately commensurate rise in the prices of their products—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]— Oh, yes. I am in no doubt about that. That is why Profits Tax is inflationary.
  I make a suggestion which has not been made in the Committee this year and which was not made last year. I I want to see Profits Tax, the whole 12½ per cent., totally abolished and at the same time I want investment and initial allowances totally abolished. The total cost of abolishing Profits Tax will approximately be offset by the abolition of capital allowances to industry. I have always been sceptical, and so have many of my hon. Friends, of the value of initial and investment allowances. They are of very dubious benefit, excepted only to a small, impoverished and struggling firm, and in one or two special cases, such as shipping.
  In business, I do what I am sure many of my hon. Friends do in business, which is to take the initial or investment allowance and put it into a suspence account and deal with it annually by withdrawal or re-application for the length of life of the asset concerned. It does not enter into the profit and loss accounts of the company one iota and it means nothing to us. Hon. Members seem to have developed into a frame of mind in which they regard an initial or investment allowance as an abatement of taxation. The initial allowance is only a manipulation of depreciation. An investment allowance means a tiny profit, 20 per cent. in the case of certain assets, less Income Tax at 7s. 9d. in the £, which simply means a residual 61¼ per cent. as a profit when the plant finally expires from its use.
  I want to scrap all those capital allowances on one side and I want to equate that to a scrapping of the Profits Tax on the other side, greatly simplifying our taxation arrangements. I quote in support very appropriate words
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  written in Lloyds Bank Review for April, 1960:
  "In the case of companies, the present rates of tax are not excessive in comparison with those charged elsewhere. There is, however, a good case for considering whether the initial and investment allowances should not be withdrawn and industry be compensated by the total abolition of the profits tax."
  I hope that the Chancellor will finally consider that before next year.
  I wind up on this note. We are talking of the lack of curb and restraint on Government expenditure, which this year has led to the position that the Chancellor has raised taxes. I couple the nationalised industries with it. My right hon. Friend will recall an occasion in the early hours of the morning in May, 1956, when a group of my hon. Friends and I—my noble Friend the Member for Dorset, South was included, as was the then Member for Ealing, South, Mr. Angus Maude—were highly critical of the proposal to finance nationalised industries below the line from the Treasury direct. We were told by the present Prime Minister, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, that that was an experimental arrangement for just two years. We put up with it until 1958, when we questioned it again. It was renewed for one year. We then questioned it again and we were told that we had to wait for Radcliffe. We all waited, pregnant with expectation, for the proposals in Radcliffe, and Radcliffe suggested that this method of financing below the line expenditure in the nationalised industries should be continued.
  I am not here quarrelling with that principle, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and every member of the Cabinet, knows the views of a large group of my hon. Friends and myself concerning control of public expenditure, notably the capital investment programmes of nationalised industries. We have impressed on them over and over again that we want annual accountability for capital sums before the money is spent, and not in retrospection.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Knutsford (Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport) did not mean to be hilariously funny—I do not mean to be hilariously funny, and I am sorry if I am it is my natural stance and appearance—when he raised as an

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  example the advanced meter readers' college of the gas board which is being built in his constituency. He was ruled out of order for raising it on the Consolidated Fund debates. It was a major item of capital expenditure by one of the State boards. As a result of that we probed matters, and we were told that the only place that this could be discussed or raised was on the Finance Bill.
  This year the Chancellor of the Exchequer has flouted the wishes of a majority of Members on this side of the Committee as to annual accountability for capital investment sums before they are spent by nationalised industries. I stress the word "annual". My right hon. Friend knows our feelings only too well. He slapped us, and me in particular, in the face bv bringing in—
  Mr. Amory indicated assent.
  Mr. Nabarro: My right hon. Friend is nodding his agreement. I know that it has been done quite deliberately. Instead of annual—
  Mr. Amory indicated dissent.
  Mr. Nabarro: My right hon. Friend is indicating his dissent now. Instead of annual accountability the Chancellor now proposes to bring in a three-year provision, far bigger than it was even in 1956. He said yesterday:
  "In the light of the Radcliffe Committee's recommendation I propose that the power should be taken for three years …"— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th April, 1960; Vol. 621, c. 48.]
  The Chancellor has been very provocative in making that decision. He will reap his due reward. He wants a debate on the National Coal Board, the electricity boards, the gas boards, the Airways Corporations and the British Transport Commission on the appropriate Clauses of the Finance Bill. He will have it. I will see to it that he has the necessary Amendments and so long as —[An HON. MEMBER: "Will the hon. Gentleman vote?"] I do not know the constituency of the hon. Gentleman wearing a natty blue tie and brown shoes.
  Mr. Richard Marsh: Greenwich.
  Mr. Nabarro: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He taunted me with
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  not voting. I presume he was referring to steel. His researches did not carry him back to 27th January last, which was the last time I voted against my own side. I do not boast about it, but I happen to have voted against my own party probably more than any other hon. Member in this Committee. It is somewhat unseemly for a Socialist to taunt me with lack of sincerity, but I forgive the hon. Gentleman, who has been in this House for only three months.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer has deliberately flaunted the views of my hon. Friends and myself, and we will endeavour to repair matters during the Committee stage of the Finance Bill. I proclaim my intentions clearly this evening. I intend to continue the struggle for annual accountability of capital investment sums in all the State boards before the money is spent and not in retrospect. I want to drive the present Chancellor of the Exchequer to a position whereby—[HON. MEMBERS: "Drive him out."] No, I do not want to drive him out; he is a decent chap. I want to drive him to a position whereby he will take this Clause for financing nationalised industries out of the Finance Bill and have instead an annual Bill called—[HON. MEMBERS: "The Nabarro Bill."]—"Nationalised Industries (Capital Investment) Bill", with a separate Clause for the annual investment required for each of these State boards. By that means, we can devote appropriate scrutiny to it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Will the hon. Member vote?"] Yes, I will vote, if necessary.
  I remind my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer of quite the most outrageous comment made by any Conservative Minister during the last few months, namely, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power—I am sorry he is not in his place this evening—who told my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Knutsford and myself that we had no statutory right whatever to challenge any item of capital investment by a State board.
  Lieut.-Colonel W. H. Bromley-Davenport indicated assent.
  Mr. Nabarro: I am glad that my hon. and gallant Friend immediately agrees with me. We were told first in a letter from the Ministry of Power; then we

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  were told it by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary on the Floor of the House. Yet the Chancellor, in the Budget, has provided from the taxpayers' money out of his budgetary surplus a substantial sum towards the financing of below-the-line expenditure for nationalised industries.
  What my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power, with the full force of the Government and the Cabinet behind him, is saying is that a Member of the House of Commons may not challenge expenditure in nationalised industries, even when the sum of money concerned is directly raised by iniquitous imposts upon the taxpayer.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will reply to that this evening, if he can. Of course, he cannot.
  Mr. Lipton: He will.
  Mr. Nabarro: Of course, he cannot. I am being serious about this. He cannot reply to it. The case is unanswerable. It will have to be remedied if there is to be appropriate accountability to Parliament and proper control over the expenditure of taxpayers' money.
  For all those reasons, I refrained from voting yesterday. I abstained on the first of the Budget Resolutions. It was a token abstention on my part, along with twelve of my colleagues, as a protest against what we consider to be an appallingly bad Budget, the worst Budget brought in by a Conservative Chancellor since we returned in 1951. It is anathema to me. It runs counter to many things I have ever advocated in the House of Commons or in the country.
  In Committee, I shall reserve my position to vote against my party on several matters, not on Thursday evening next —the hon. Member for Greenwich will be interested to know this—because I could not vote then against the entire Budget without voting against, for example, the modest relief given in the repayment of post-war credits or the other modest reliefs. On the specific issues in Committee, however, I shall suggest to my group of hon. Friends— [HON. MEMBERS: "Your group?"] Yes, our group, if that is what hon. Members wish. We are the unofficial Opposition in the House of Commons.
  Mr. A. C. Manuel: "Nabarro boys."
  Mr. Nabarro: I claim that we are much more effective than the official Opposition—
  Mr. J. T. Price: The "below-the-line" group.
  Mr. Nabarro: —who have characterised their every action in the last few months by flatulence and by indecision on every major issue. I shall reserve my position, and many of my hon. Friends will reserve their position, until the Committee, although we will not vote against the Government on Thursday evening.
  I say without sorrow to my right hon. Friend that it has been painful for me to make my speech tonight—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I grieve that my criticism has been so severe. I believe in the philosophy of lowering taxes and not increasing them and I do not believe that the Chancellor has been correctly advised on this occasion. Long after we have departed from the Budget debates and the Finance Bill this year my right hon. Friend will constantly be in trouble unless he pays heed to the careful advice given to him by my group of hon. Friends and myself. There must be much more powerful control over Government expenditure. Otherwise, we shall face a series of Budgets from a Conservative Chancellor practising a Socialist philosophy and a dismal return to what I consider the drabbest and dreariest period in the fiscal history of the post-war years, characterised by the name, "Butskellism".
  9.21 p.m.
  Mr. George Thomas: We have listened to one of the most striking speeches which has been made in the whole of this debate. Even making allowances for the exhibitionism of the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), the attack which he has made upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer is one of the most severe that I have heard during the fifteen years that I have been an hon. Member of the House of Commons.
  The hon. Gentleman seemed to be supported by many of his hon. Friends as he was making a personal and savage attack upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer, upon his efficiency and equally upon his policy—
  Mr. Marsh: And on his honesty.
  Mr. Thomas: —and on his honesty, as my hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich (Mr. Marsh) has suggested.
  It is not for any hon. Member on this side of the Committee to seek to answer the hon. Gentleman on behalf of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Suffice it for me to note the very deep divisions which exist among hon. Members opposite over the important issue of the policy which the Chancellor should pursue at this time in our history. I believe that the hon. Member for Kidderminster has revealed a basic Tory philosophy which is rooted in selfishness and reflects the old school which was so thoroughly rejected by the electorate of the country. and which the hon. Gentleman will find out—is the hon. Member for Kidderminster leaving us?
  Mr. Nabarro: No.
  Mr. Thomas: The hon. Gentleman will discover, I believe, that he is marking time when the rest of the country is marching forward from the philosophy and mentality which he revealed tonight.
  I wish to criticise the Chancellor for other important reasons. I come at once to a matter on which I speak only for myself, I suppose. In this Committee we all can speak only for ourselves, but on this matter I do not know whether I shall have any support from my hon. Friends any more than from hon. Members opposite. I want to refer for a moment to the Premium Bonds scheme.
  The Chancellor, I believe, is lending respectability to gambling. The Chancellor is encouraging something that ought not to be encouraged and that is harmful to the community. It is pitiful to see the Chancellor using as a major item in his effort to encourage personal savings the idea that people will save only if the gambling element is introduced. I believe that he offends—I say this at the risk of setting off my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) once again—certain deeply-held convictions particularly among Free Churchmen, although I know that they are shared by Churchmen in this country. I leave that, having registered my protest and having made it perfectly clear to this side of the Committee that if and when opportunity arises
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  when the Finance Bill is introduced, I intend to register my protest.
  A further objection that I have is that the Chancellor in his Budget has neglected an opportunity that any man ought to have welcomed to restore to the tattered Welfare State the principle that we are concerned with those people who are unable to protect themselves. Think of the people who had a right to look to the right hon. Gentleman for assistance at this time and for whom he had not even a word to spare in his Budget speech.
  First, I think of the chronic sick, the people who are a tiny minority and who are electorally unimportant but who, in a Welfare State, ought to have priority in our considerations. At the present time, with the talk of prosperity in these islands, it is little short of a disgrace that the sickness benefit available for the chronic sick in the case of a man, wife and child is £4 15s. a week. Inevitably, the chronic sick of Britain today are being driven to the National Assistance Board. The time for an overhaul of welfare benefits has long passed, and I think that the right hon. Gentleman has failed in his duty and missed a striking opportunity to render service where it is most needed.
  Several of my hon. Friends, as well as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, have already castigated the Minister for his apparent indifference to the present poverty of our old-age pensioners. I am not seeking to maintain that concern for the old folk is the monopoly of this side of the Committee, but I say that it is humbug, it is hypocrisy, to talk of the old people sharing in the increased wealth of the nation and then for the Chancellor to make no reference at all in his Budget speech to this being done.
  The hard truth is that increasingly old-age pensioners are being driven to sacrifice their independence and turn to the National Assistance Board for supplementation. While it is undoubtedly true for a large element of the population that things have not been so good in their lifetime before, for the old folk things have not been so difficult since the Welfare State began. Their proportion of the national income is smaller each year. When answering a Question tabled by me on 28th March, the Minister

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  of Pensions and National Insurance revealed that the basic pension today represents 18·5 per cent. of the national average wage. In 1946, when the new retirement scheme was introduced, it represented 205 per cent. of the national average wage. Clearly the position of the pensioner in relation to the average wage earner is worse today than it was in 1946.
  Sir Peter Roberts: That is not strictly accurate.
  Mr. Thomas: This was the answer given to me by the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance a week last Monday. If the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Sir P. Roberts) cares to look in HANSARD he will see it amongst the written replies.
  Sir P. Roberts: My point is merely that the period to which the hon. Gentleman refers did not last very long.
  Mr. Thomas: I find it hard to think that the hon. Member seeks to defend the present position of the old-age pensioner. I find it hard that someone like the hon. Gentleman, whom I have known for nearly sixteen years, should split hairs about whether old-age pensioners had 20·5 per cent. of the national average wage for a year or six months. We know that today the basic retirement pension is worth only 18·5 per cent. of the national average wage.
  That is a national scandal. It is impudence to talk of a Welfare State when we fail to honour our welfare obligations. The basis of a Welfare State is that the rich are made to help the poor and that the strong help the weak, but we have seen in our affluent society a change in these basic principles. Now the emphasis is apparently put upon personal gain and personal acquisition. I wish with all my heart that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give a message of hope and encouragement to the old guard who laboured when things were more difficult than they are today to establish us with the greatness we have been able to achieve within the lifetime of our own people.
  I am particularly glad about the Chancellor of the Exchequer's post-war credit proposals. We have had singularly difficult anomalies because a person had to be in receipt of National Assistance for three months before he could receive his
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  post-war credits. Every right hon. and hon. Member will have had to deal with cases of particular hardship which seemed indefensible but yet fell outside the terms of the Chancellor's previous statement. Some people, for whom life is a difficult and drab business with long sickness and economic poverty, will be helped by this statement on post-war credits.
  I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has gone as far as he has. I believe that the Budget is the supreme instrument by which any Government helps to shape the sort of society they wish us to enjoy. We have been boasting now for years that the principle of the Welfare State is accepted by both sides. We have read pronouncements from the Bow Group, we have heard statements that I never expected to hear from the Front Bench opposite, but none of us can be indifferent to the extent to which the welfare services are creaking today.
  They are breaking down. There is need, there is dire poverty, there is needless suffering that ought to be on the conscience of the country. Because it is on my conscience, I say to the Chancellor "Take the first opportunity to put right this serious omission from your Budget of this week".
  9.36 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Carr: I am afraid that, unlike what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), what I shall say is not likely to hit the headlines. I shall do something that, by his standards, would be very dull. I shall support my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and I shall support his Budget—and I suspect that in doing so I shall be speaking, in fact, for the very great majority of Conservatives both inside the House and outside it. My proximity to where my hon. Friend has been sitting perhaps illustrates the small territory over which his Whip prevails.
  Before I say why I think that the Budget is a good one, I have two other pleasant tasks to perform. First, it is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas). All of us were disturbed on his account recently, when he was ill. I am not sure whether this is his first active speaking performance in the House since his

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  illness, but I should like to say how pleased we all are to see him back and in his usual form. Of his sincerity, and his care for poverty in this country wherever it may be found, none of us has any doubt.
  I shall not follow the hon. Member in his references to pensions, and so forth. That subject has been raised not only by him, but by many of his hon. Friends. All that I will say on that is to repeat what we on this side said last year, namely, that normally pensions are not appropriately dealt with in the Budget. We gave a pledge at the General Election that pensioners would be given a fair share in our rising prosperity. That is a pledge that we maintained in the last Parliament, and I am confident that we shall maintain it in this one as well.
  None of us should be complacent about the degree of poverty that still exists, but I sometimes think that we do a disservice to the country and also perhaps indirectly to the pensioners by exaggerating the scale of the plight suffered by some of them, and by belittling the improvements that have been achieved.
  My second pleasant task is to refer to two notable maiden speeches in this debate. First, we had my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley). It cannot be easy to follow such a distinguished Member as Mr. Speaker Morrison, now Lord Dunrossil. Though for most of my time in this House I only heard him controlling the House from the Speaker's Chair, I know that in earlier days he made many notable contributions from the Front Benches and back benches on both sides. The people of Cirencester and Tewkesbury can rest assured by their new Member's performance in this Committee that they have someone who can worthily represent them in the great tradition which he is following.
  I was particularly attracted by my hon. Friend's speech because he stressed the importance to the economy of those who earn between £1,300 and £3,000 a year. I think that those were the limits he chose. I support that plea very strongly. Indeed, I referred to the same matter in the Budget debate a year ago, when I welcomed the tax relief which
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  my right hon. Friend was able to give at that time particularly from the point of view of the help it would give to this class of person.
  The second maiden speech came from my hon. Friend the Member for Clitheroe (Mr. F. Pearson). I cannot pretend to have any knowledge of agriculture. I was born and bred in a city. I have worked in industry. I represent an urban constituency. I suppose, therefore, that I am a Member who might, on behalf of his constituents, look askance at agricultural subsidies and ask what it is that urban taxpayers are getting for their money.
  I am sure, that if all spokesmen for agriculture spoke as forcefully, progressively and thoughtfully as my hon. Friend the Member for Clitheroe did today, farmers would need to have no fear about winning the support they require from the rest of the community. It was a great pleasure to hear my hon. Friend's contribution. He follows the late Richard Fort, a Member much loved and respected in the House. Sad though we are for the reason of his coming here, we feel that Clitheroe will be worthily represented in the future.
  Turning to the Budget itself, I think that it would be fair to say that there are three main economic purposes which a Budget today should serve. First, it should serve to maintain the stability of prices which we have enjoyed for the last two years, the lack of enjoyment of which was such an evil both socially and economically in previous years since the war. Secondly, I think that the Budget should serve to support our balance of payments and the strength of the £ abroad. Thirdly, I suggest that it should serve to encourage the expansion of our economy based on growing efficiency and competitive power.
  In the long run, these three aims are, I believe, indivisible. In the short run, however, the pursuit of the third objective, expansion, can clash with the pursuit of the first two, price stability, sound balance of payments and the strength of the £ abroad. Surely, that is one lesson which we must have learnt from post-war experience under successive Governments.
  Therefore, however much expansion may be essential in the long run, if we

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  are to have price stability and be competitive in export markets we must, in the short run, take great care to see that expansion is based on increasing efficiency and competitiveness and is not followed just for the sake of expansion as such. Secondly, we must ensure that expansion is controlled in speed so that excessive demands of home consumption do not squeeze out exports and force up prices.
  Last year, we had this right kind of expansion. Exports rose, production rose, real incomes rose, prices were stable. I think that it was my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster who said that judgment in Budget matters was what counted; and that we should not depend too much upon the arithmetical calculations of the economists and the advisers at the Treasury, and the like. I can only say that last year's results give me considerable confiedence in the judgment of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. We had what we wanted last year, and we want it to go on. My right hon. Friend made that quite clear in presenting his Budget yesterday.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster seems to assume that this happy state of affairs will go on anyhow. He would like to give even further reliefs of a total which I tremble to calculate. I do not think that my arith-meticail powers would enable me to calculate the total volume of reliefs which he advocated, but, whatever it may be, surely the whole sum of our past experience shows how easily the good sort of expansion that we have had during this last year can turn into the bad sort of expansion of rising prices and exports being squeezed out by excessive home demand.
  Surely we cannot deny that there are already undoubted signs that the latter type of expansion could return unless we are careful. Already, there are areas in which labour and materials are in short supply. These are the early signs of the sort of expansion that we do not want, or, at least, cannot afford at too great a rate of acceleration.
  Surely from our experience since the war we ought to know by now that it is better to control the speed of expansion early than to leave it too late. If it is left too late, the brake has then to be
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  applied, not in a gentle manner, as my right hon. Friend is applying it now, but in a fierce manner. Usually, when it has to be applied in a fierce manner, there is only one sort of brake which can be used, and that imposes fierce and immediate cuts on capital expenditure, the type of activity we ought to be encouraging in the economy and which so many hon. Members, particularly those opposite, keep telling us we carry on badly compared with other countries.
  I therefore welcome my right hon. Friend's action in putting on a gentle brake in a form aimed more at halting consumption, because I believe that by so doing he will avoid the recurrent necessity to kill a growth in investment which, in the long run, is of the essence of our future prosperity. We cannot have efficient investment programmes if they are constantly being stopped up and then stopped just when we get them going. What I am hoping is that my right hon. Friend's judgment will enable this country to regulate its rate of expansion so that we can carry on this investment boom which is growing and keep it within manageable proportions, and thereby avoid the necessity of the great waste and loss of cutting it off in midstream, as has, unfortunately, happened in the past.
  I believe that my right hon. Friend is right to be cautious and to impose restraint now, not to stop expansion, but to stop the danger of the expansion which we all want getting out of control. I also believe that the amount of restraint is of about the right order. I do not know what right or competence I have to reasure my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, South (Lady Tweedsmuir), but I do not believe that what the Chancellor has done will reverse the expansion which is going on. I take her point about the shock to confidence.
  Also, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury said, it is a rather curious paradox that when things are going well we tend to give people doses of relatively nasty medicine, but that when things are going badly we dish our lumps of sugar. This is an unfortunate paradox, and I am not sure to what extent it can be avoided. I am conscious of this danger. Thus, while I welcome the fact that my right hon. Friend has applied some restraint,

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  I am glad that he has firmly rejected the advice of some economists who wished him to take as much as £200 million a year out of the spending power in the form of taxes. That would have taken the form of a psychological shock which would have reversed the degree of confidence which we must maintain. This must be a matter of judgment. My right hon. Friend's judgment was right last year, and as far as one can read the signs we have reason to believe that it will prove right again this year.
  But although we may be satisfied about the quantity of restraint we must have regard to the method of restraint. How should this restraint on demand— this brake—be applied? Some people say that no extra taxation is necessary, and that all the restraint should be found elsewhere—in other words, in the Government sector. It is unfair to my right hon. Friend to suggest that he has not curbed Government expenditure. No doubt we all wish he had curbed it more. I should be surprised if he himself does not wish that he had curbed it more. But let us consider his forecast for this year.
  My right hon. Friend's forecast was that Government demand would increase by about 6 per cent. in respect of fixed capital investment, and by about 4½ per cent. in respect of current Government expenditure. We have to compare that with the increase in demand that he forecast in the private sector—a 10 per cent. increase in investment, an unknown and almost certainly substantial increase in the building up of industrial stocks, and an increase of 4 per cent. in personal consumption. We must at least give the Chancellor credit for budgeting to allow for a bigger expansion in the private sector than he is allowing to take place in the Government sector.
  I would ask the Committee, and especially some of my hon. Friends, to examine the kinds of Government expenditure which will be increased in the coming year. First, there is defence. It would be impossible to go into that subject tonight, but I would point out that it should not be forgotten that half the increase in defence expenditure is accounted for by an increase in Service pay, which we would all support. Apart from defence, expenditure is increasing mainly in respect of education, health—
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  including the building of hospitals-roads, and similar items. All those are items in which expenditure should be increased, both on economic and social grounds. I share with my hon. Friends a desire for economy in Government expenditure, but I ask the Committee to reflect upon the kind of expenditure which the Tory Party should now support.
  As our society grows more affluent we must expect and, indeed, encourage individuals to look after themselves to a greater extent than they have been able to in the past. A move in that direction is thoroughly healthy. But there are certain sectors of expenditure which, however affluent our society becomes, can never be undertaken by individuals. The individual can never build hospitals, roads, homes for elderly people, schools and universities. Therefore, as our society increases in affluence not only should we be able to afford more of these things; it is our duty to afford more of them, because there is an increasing desire for better environmental standards. To the extent that Government expenditure has risen in these sectors, we should welcome it.
  I conclude, therefore, that in this year restraint is necessary, and that, however unpalatable it may be, the Chancellor had to achieve this restraint by some increase in taxation. Moreover, given this unpleasant fact, I say that the taxes he has chosen to increase are the best ones he could have chosen, allowing for the fact that nobody likes increases in taxes of any kind. I do not think that it will check expansion or, in particular, that it will check capital investment. Though as an industrialist and a smoker I object to both these tax increases individually in the strongest possible terms, as a Member of Parliament trying to look at the national point of view I think that we must support the Chancellor in the steps which he has taken. Equally, we must support him in the small but, nevertheless, welcome reliefs which he has given in post-war credits, in help to widows and widowers with dependent children and dependent relatives and the like.
  I should like to say to the Chancellor, however, and to this extent I agree with a small part of what my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster has said, that taxation is too high and must be

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  reduced. I regard myself, as a Conservative Member, as being pledged to see its reduction in these five years, but I do not regard that as a pledge to see that no single tax is ever to be increased in any single year. I think that the best prospect of the largest decrease in taxation comes from keeping the economy steady.
  I support the Chancellor in these measures and I support, also, the steps he has taken to protect the Revenue against tax evasion. I do not agree with the exaggerated estimate given by right hon. and hon. Members opposite of the sort of saving that can come in this direction; but I believe in private enterprise, and as a supporter of private enterprise I want to be in the forefront in attacking any abuse of that system. I believe that I carry the support of my right hon. and hon. Friends in saying this.
  We must look carefully, as I am sure my right hon. Friend would agree, at the methods used; but about the principle of attacking abuse he has our wholehearted support, and I would rather see him trying to get adequate powers to do this successfully than be unduly timid about the methods that ought to be adopted. Unless we tackle this, the system can create an atmosphere in which national cynicism about the merits of our institutions grows, and that will serve neither our economy nor our society.
  My last subject is the vexed one of Government expenditure to which I have already referred. While I am quite happy to support the position this year, I equally welcome the growing interest and the determination of the House of Commons to have more say and more control over Government expenditure. But, personally, I hope that the Government as a whole will also become more concerned in this matter. I have a feeling that perhaps one of the chief needs here is some revision of Government practice.
  I have a feeling that it is necessary and that it could produce economy for the Government as a whole, in September or October each year before the "hot" Estimates season comes upon them, to look at expenditure as a whole on the basis of present policy and on a forecast not just of one year ahead, but
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  of three or five years ahead. Then they could see the effect not only for one year, but as a projection over several years both of carrying on present policies and of any proposed changes in policy. I hope that that is something that can be considered as well as any increase in Parliamentary control of expenditure.
  I conclude, as I began, by saying that I believe that this Budget is in the interest of the economy and of the society of the country. I believe that it is a basis for a further growth in our economy and that, socially, it is proof of a further move towards a responsible society in this land.
  Whereupon Motion made, and Question, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.— [Colonel J. H. Harrison]—put and agreed to.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  WELSH GRAND COMMITTEE
  Ordered.
  That for the remainder of the present Session the following paragraphs shall have effect: —

  (1) There shall be a Standing Committee to be known as the Welsh Grand Committee to consider such specified matters relating exclusively to Wales and Monmouthshire as may be referred to them and to consist of all Members sitting for constituencies in Wales and Monmouthshire, together with not more than twenty-five other Members to be nominated in respect of each such matter by the Committee of Selection, who shall have regard in such nomination to the approximation of the balance of parties in the committee to that in the whole House, and shall have power from time to time to discharge the Members so nominated by them and to appoint others in substitution for those discharged.

  (2) A motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown at the commencement of public business, to be decided without amendment or debate, to the effect that a specified matter or matters relating exclusively to Wales and Monmouthshire be referred to the Welsh Grand Committee for their consideration, and if, on the question thereupon being put, not less than ten Members rise in their places and signify their objection thereto, Mr. Speaker shall declare that the noes have it.

  (3) If such a motion be agreed to, the Welsh Grand Committee shall consider the matter or matters to them referred on not more than three days in a Session, and shall report only that they have considered the said matter or matters.—[Mr. Amory.]

  FIDUCIARY NOTE ISSUE
  10.1 p.m.
  Mr. John Cronin: I beg to move,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Fiduciary Note Issue (Extension of Period) Order, 1960 (S.I. 1960, No. 327), dated 29th February, 1960, a copy of which was laid before this House on 4th March, be annulled.
  I feel somewhat diffident in rising to my feet for a second time this evening, but this is a very important matter, and we shall require a lot of assurances from the Economic Secretary to the Treasury before we agree to this Statutory Instrument being passed. This is becoming an event which occurs every two years, and as such I should like to welcome the Economic Secretary to join us. He will find that there is a similar team. No doubt we shall see some other Economic Secretary in two years' time, when the hon. Gentleman reaches even higher spheres.
  First, one should explain the nature of this Order. All hon. Members are aware that the fiduciary issue is that part of the currency, bank notes and coin, which is not backed by gold and bullion; in other words, it is simply backed by Government securities. Under the Currency and Bank Notes Act, 1954, it was arranged that the fiduciary issue should not exceed £1,575 million. I should say in parenthesis that the fiduciary issue is the total for all practical purposes of bank notes and coin in circulation. In Section 2 (1) of the Currency and Bank Notes Act, 1954, we find that the total amount of the fiduciary issue—in other words, the bank notes and coin in circulation— must not exceed £1,575 million for more than two years without a Statutory Instrument, which can be passed under Section 2 (8) of that Act. This Order is subject to annulment by the House. In other words, what we are discussing tonight is whether the total quantity of bank notes and coin in circulation should exceed £1,575 million or not.
  On 10th February, the total amount of bank notes in circulation was then £2,150 million, and, according to a Treasury Minute of 18th March, the Governor and Company of the Bank of
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  England recommended that the fiduciary issue should be increased to £2,200 million.
  I should not like anyone in the House to think that it is a dogmatic matter of policy, so far as this side of the House is concerned, that the fiduciary issue should be reduced back to £1,575 million. Obviously, it would cause considerable fiscal embarrassment, to say the least. The fiscal embarrassment would not be as severe as some people think, because it is directly within the powers of the Government to move gold and bullion from the Exchange Equalisation Account bank to the Bank of England, but it would be a horrible nuisance, to say the least, and we on this side of the House are the most co-operative people on all financial matters.
  At the same time, we feel that before we agree to this Order, we should have certain assurances. The fiduciary issue, of course, is an index of the amount of inflation that is going on. I do not propose to talk about inflation, which is a very large subject, and my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Ginsburg) who will have a few words to say on the subject, will do it with much more skill and knowledge than myself.
  I think we should certainly keep in mind the size of the fiduciary issue as a thermometer of inflation. While we are on the subject of the fiduciary issue, perhaps the Economic Secretary will tell us for what reason the Government have introduced this new component of it, the new £1 notes? They seem to be the subject of criticism throughout the country and some people find them rather unattractive.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Gordon Touche): I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member. On this Prayer we cannot discuss the quality of the notes; we can discuss only the amount of the fiduciary issue.
  Mr. Cronin: I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but it seemed to me that the bank notes, being a componet of the fiduciary issue, might bear description. I would not think of questioning your Ruling for a moment. I am only explaining why my words took that direction.

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  The total number of notes and coins in circulation is only one component of the total amount of money, so any views we may have as to the amount of notes in circulation must also take into consideration the total quantity of effective actual money. As we all know, the actual total quantity of money consists not merely of notes and coins in circulation, but also of bank deposits, and we can hardly make any effective proposals about the fiduciary issue unless we consider the situation of bank deposits.
  Bank deposits, according to the Economic Survey, were in the region of £6,131 million at the end of 1958, and at the end of 1959 they were £6,475 million, according to Table 23 of the Economic Survey. Bank deposits themselves are a mathematical function of bank advances. All advances create deposits, and the important thing is the total of bank advances, which at the end of 1959 amounted to £2,818 million. In 1959 there was an increase in bank advances of £692 million.
  This is a very alarming increase, and one wonders to what extent the Government are responsible for it or have control over it. Unless we can have reassurance that the Government will maintain some control over the bank deposit components of the total money in circulation, we shall have to take a much stricter view of the increase in the fiduciary issue. Will the Economic Secretary tell us exactly how much the Government can control the total amount of bank advances? If he intends to quote the 1946 Bank of England Act, there is considerable doubt that that does give the Government powers—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Order. I do not think that arises under this Order.
  Mr. Cronin: It will be quite impossible to debate the question of the total amount of currency and bank notes in circulation unless we can debate also the total amount of the other components which make up the total amount of money. What we are debating is the total amount of money available to the community.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: What we are debating is the amount of the fiduciary issue.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins (Birmingham, Stetchford): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Are we not considering whether it is desirable that there should be this extension in the period for which the fiduciary issue can apply? Surely in considering whether this is desirable or not, it is necessary that we should take into account one of its consequences, which I think is the level of bank advances. Surely it is very difficult to be able to consider whether the fiduciary issue of a certain size is or is not desirable if we are not able to consider certain consequences which flow from that fact.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I am afraid that under an Order like this we are very limited to the terms of the Order.
  Mr. David Ginsburg: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. When this matter was debated in the House two years ago, on 1st April, 1958, these considerations relating to bank advances and to the velocity of the circulation of money were allowed by the Chair.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I cannot discuss what happened in 1958 on another occasion.
  Mr. Cronin: Further to that point of order. I think the argument is extremely limited here, and obviously this House will have no control over the total amount of money in circulation at all if we are completely prevented from debating an essential component of the fiduciary issue. I feel that this Ruling will have the most far-reaching consequences if it is accepted. I do not think, perhaps, you really meant that we could not discuss the matter of bank deposits at all. Bank deposits are—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I do not say that the hon. Member cannot mention them, but he cannot discuss methods of control, which are far beyond the Order.
  Mr. Cronin: I do not wish to be tediously repetitive and I hope you will appreciate that I am deferring to your views, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. All I am suggesting is that this Order is one to extend the time for which the fiduciary issue should exceed a certain amount. The fiduciary issue is a function entirely of the total money in circulation. We cannot possibly discuss this Order

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  unless we also consider the total amount of money in circulation.
  Although this does not bind you, I cannot help recalling that on the last occasion when we debated this subject, on 1st April, 1958, we were allowed to discuss quite fully the whole question of the total amount of money in circulation, which includes bank deposits.
  I do not want to trespass on the rules of order about this, but if you will let me at least make some passing reference it would be of great convenience to the whole House. What I would like the Economic Secretary to tell us is to what extent the Government are actually able to control the total amount of money in circulation, less the fiduciary issue, bank notes—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think that is where we parted ways. We cannot discuss this control.
  Mr. Cronin: Perhaps the Economic Secretary will tell us to what extent the Government are able to control the total amount of the fiduciary issue, bearing in mind the following circumstances: we all know that the total of bank notes and coins in circulation is something with which the banks have to comply when they issue to the general public what the general public requires, so that the fiduciary issue is more or less a passive economic phenomenon which must follow the public's demand. The Economic Secretary will probably agree with me about that.
  Will he tell us to what extent the Government can control the total amount of the fiduciary issue, given that the fiduciary issue can be increased only if there is also a concomitant increase in bank deposits and, therefore, bank advances? It will probably be better to do that to solve the problem of order which has been exercising us. I have no doubt that the Economic Secretary, who is always a most courteous and helpful person, will reply in those terms and we will all have the reassurance which we require without any feeling that we have upset you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, or transgressed the rules of order.
  Of course, we cannot discuss the inadequacies of the Bank of England Act, 1946, or even whether it should be redrafted to give more control, but I
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  wonder whether the hon. Gentleman will also tell us that, with a view to maintaining the fiduciary issue at a reasonable level, the Government will continue to use monetary measures to reduce the total amount of money in circulation—I refer, of course, to the fiduciary issue and also to the total of bank advances and bank deposits.
  In his Budget speech, the Chancellor gave us a rather dark hint that monetary policy was to be applied perhaps somewhat rigorously in future, and we would like to have some idea of what that policy is to be in so far as it applies to the actual amount of currency and bank notes in circulation, as we all have to stick to that to be in order.
  The fiduciary issue, the currency and bank notes in circulation, is backed for all practical purposes by Government stock. As the Economic Secretary knows, there has been a considerable decline in the value of Government stocks and that decline was greatly accelerated a few weeks ago when the Government Broker suddenly withdrew his support in Government stocks in open market operations. That produced a sudden severe fall in Government stocks and caused widespread despondency on the market and greatly accentuated the distrust which the general public already had for Government stock. Can the Economic Secretary tell us something about that? It is of prime importance, since the currency and bank notes in circulation are based entirely on Government stock. We want to be sure that the Treasury will do everything it can to maintain the value of Government stocks.
  Of course, at present there is a considerable danger of inflation. We know that there has been a large boom on the Stock Exchange and a tremendous increase in the value of ordinary shares. We know that dividends have substantially increased and that several large wage claims have been met and that other wage claims are outstanding.
  We are faced with a potentially inflationary situation. This has its impact on the demand for currency and bank notes. I refer to this because we must keep in order. Nevertheless, we are concerned about the Government's policy with regard to this prospective inflation, and we cannot feel that the Chancellor in his Budget statement gave an adequate reassurance.

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  With those remarks, I leave it to my hon. Friends to amplify what I have said. I have no doubt that they will show much more ingenuity and keep within the rules of order better than I did, but if the Economic Secretary gives me the assurances for which I have asked I shall be very grateful.
  10.20 p.m.
  Mr. David Ginsburg: I propose to make an appropriately brief intervention this evening, first, because the Treasury Bench has had a very heavy time of it today, and, secondly, because the problem we are discussing is a difficult one from the point of view of the rules of order. I hope, Sir Gordon, that you will be charitable with me, and perhaps charitable to the Government spokesman who will have to put forward some arguments in reply.
  I will content myself by making three points. First, I wish to draw the attention of the House to the significant rise in the note issue which has taken place over the years. Secondly, I should like to invite the observations of the Economic Secretary about the nature of Government thinking on this phenomenon. Thirdly, I should like some assurance that in this policy the supremacy lies with the Government and not with the Bank of England.
  It is no exaggeration to say that there is considerable public concern about the continued rise in the note issue. My hon. Friend the Member for Lough-borougth (Mr. Oronin), who is a member of the medical profession, has described the note issue as "the thermometer of inflation". Though neither he nor I would wish to over-simplify the problem, we realise that there is, as he mentioned, the question of the bank deposits. My hon. Friend went into that at some length, but there is also the equally important problem of the velocity of the circulation of money.
  Presumably the Government are concerned not merely with the note issue but with the total amount of money available. Presumably they are also concerned with the velocity at which this money circulates. May I interpose here that it is very unsatisfactory for hon. Members that the Government have still not been able to provide statistics about the velocity of the circulation of money? Had those statistics been available, it is
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  arguable that my hon. Friends and I would not have had to pray against the Order this evening. However, those statistics are not available and we are bound to say that the trend of the note issue is an upward one.
  That upward trend must be of greater concern to hon. Gentlemen opposite than to hon. Members on this side of the House, because it is from the benches opposite that we have consistently heard the cry that this country must not print its way into inflation. Given that point of view, I put to the Economic Secretary, diffidently and provisionally, a paradox about the statistics of the note issue, because it has intrigued me and I would welcome his comments.
  Over the period 1945 to 1951, when my hon. Friends were in office, the note issue rose by about £25 million. During the period 1951 to 1960, the period of the present Government's stewardship, the note issue has gone up by over £700 million. That is a large and serious sum, sufficiently serious for the Radcliffe Committee to have commented upon it in its observations.
  It is even more intriguing, if one breaks down the £700 million, to see that it is shared out quite impartially between the respective Chancellors of the Exchequer of the day. The Home Secretary heads the list. Under his stewardship, the note issue went up by as much as £400 million. When the Prime Minister was Chancellor of the Exchequer, the note issue went up by £150 million. It even went up by a modest amount when the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) was Chancellor of the Exchequer and it has gone up by a further £150 million under the stewardship of the present Chancellor. This appears to be an inexorable trend. My hon. Friends and I would appreciate the Government's comment on that phenomenon.
  We would also like to hear something of the Government's viewpoint concerning the note issue and whether they regard it as a serious instrument of economic monetary policy. It may not be easy for the Economic Secretary to reply to my question owing to the rules of order. Nevertheless, the Radcliffe Committee took the view that note issue policy was closely linked with the whole complex of monetary policy. Indeed, it stated

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  that the Government's monetary policy must be viewed in relation to the general objectives of the Government's economic diagnosis in a particular situation.
  With those words in mind, I should like first to take up the Government's thinking on the question of the note issue and to make two brief quotations from the Report of the Radcliffe Committee. In paragraph 100, the Committee stated:
  "The authorities have explained to us in evidence that they do not regard the supply of bank notes as being the only, nor nowadays the only important, supply of money, and that the Government's function in issuing notes is simply the passive one of ensuring that sufficient notes are available for the practical convenience of the public."
  In paragraph 348 the view is again expressed, but in rather stronger terms. The Committee stated:
  "As was made clear to us in evidence, this control is a vestige of an earlier, more significant control, dating from the time when the note issue was mainly backed by gold and the danger that the authorities might abuse the power to issue fiduciary notes was taken sufficiently seriously to warrant close Parliament scrutiny of the exercise of that power."
  Therefore, my hon. Friends and I have no apology to make for bringing this matter before the House. We do, however, ask the Economic Secretary whether the Government still subscribe to the view which is expressed so felicitously in the Radcliffe Report.
  It as interesting that, in the very short conclusions of the Radcliffe Committee, no mention whatever is made of either restricting or increasing the note issue as a weapon of monetary policy. It is a quite passive instrument which has no significance. If that is true, and if that is the nature of current thinking, I should like to put this question to the Economic Secretary. Are he and his right hon. Friend the Chancellor happy at the continued expansion of the note issue having regard to their own policy, first, with regard to the raising of the Bank Rate in January, and secondly, in regard to what the Chancellor said about credit restriction in his speech yesterday?
  I quote in particular from columns 45 and 46 of the OFFICIAL REPORT. The Chancellor said yesterday:
  "But, equally, we must be careful not to allow credit expansion to prejudice stability in the internal economy or balance of payments."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th April, 1960; Vol. 621. c. 45–6.]
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  So much for the question of the narrow problem of the note issue. But there are certain wider considerations. The House cannot really decide whether the Government are right in bringing this Order forward at the present time without relating their action to a very modest and tentative diagnosis of the economic situation.
  My hon. Friends and I would like to ask the Economic Secretary whether the Government's monetary policy is operating under a diagnosis that we are in an inflationary situation or under a diagnosis that we face a difficult balance of payments crisis. The reason that I put this to the Economic Secretary is that my hon. Friends and I are very confused on the matter because we have had confusing statements from Government spokesmen.
  To begin with, we had the original statement from the Bank of England in January when the Bank Rate was raised. It was then stated that the Bank Rate was being raised because of the inflationary situation in the economy. Subsequently we had the statement of the Chancellor on his monetary policy to which the Order relates. This was on 28th January, when the Chancellor pinpointed the danger that the country faced as a balance of payments crisis. On 11th February we had the Liverpool speech of the Governor of the Bank of England, when he stated that the main problem that the economy faced was the menace of inflation. I put some Questions to the Economic Secretary last month, and yesterday the Chancellor, referring to his monetary policy, said that his increase of the Bank Rate, to which the note issue is related, was designed to deal with a balance of payments crisis.
  I will leave that aspect of the problem at the present stage, and simply say to the Economic Secretary that this is too bad and extremely confusing. If the House is to pass the Order, we should like to know what sort of economic situation the Government feel that they are facing at the moment.
  I come to the last point which I indicated to the Economic Secretary I would raise. It is the view of my hon. Friends and myself—in this view we are reinforced very strongly by the Radcliffe Committee—that in monetary policy

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  primacy should rest with the Government of the day and not with the Bank of England. I have just briefly quoted certain indications of divergencies which exist in the views of the Government and the Governor of the Bank of England. This is very unfortunate, not because they differ but because we in this House cannot cross-examine the Governor of the Bank of England on any particular aspect of monetary policy. For better or ill, we can cross-examine only the Government of the day. Therefore, it is right that the will of the Government of the day in these matters should prevail, because it is the Government of the day which is alone answerable to this House.
  I hope that in the course of this debate we shall get some reasonable reassurance from the Treasury Bench on these very weighty and important matters.
  10.35 p.m.
  Mr. Ray Mawby: I hesitate to enter this debate, because I am not an economist, but I was rather surprised by the suggestion of the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin) that the size of the fiduciary note issue was the thermometer of the size of inflation which tended to show just how inflationary the system was. I should have thought that one could equally set out to prove that it was a thermometer of rising prosperity. However, I do not think that either is correct. The size of the issue depends upon how many pound notes each person decides he ought to have in his pocket to enable him to make the payments which he has to make from day to day.
  Mr. Cronin: I think the hon. Member will agree that the fiduciary issue, if it increases and if prices remain stable, is probably an indication of increasing prosperity, but that if it increases and prices do not remain stable but increase, it is an indication of inflation.
  Mr. Mawby: I should not have thought that was necessarily so. After all, the actual notes in circulation do not represent the only thing upon which we calculate the amount of money which is needed to purchase the goods which are available.
  We are dealing with a narrow point. This is a matter which we should consider practically, in the same way as any
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  bank decides how many shillings to circulate. Banks circulate as many shillings as they think will be required by people to put into their gas and electricity meters, and they take into account the number of shillings which will remain in the meters during a quarter until the shillings are removed by the collectors and are put into circulation again. The whole matter of the issue of notes is decided purely on that sort of basis.
  What are bank notes? They are non-interest bearing securities. Therefore, the average person with any sense will keep only the smallest number of notes in his pocket that he feels he requires to enable him to carry out necessary transactions. Certainly, with the changes which are occurring, with more and more people using a bank account instead of carrying out transactions in cash, there may well be in the future a reduced demand for bank notes. People will not be using so many currency notes; they will use more cheques, and their wages and salaries will be paid directly into their bank accounts.
  Therefore, I should have thought that, from the practical point of view, this is purely a matter of finding out from the experts—and after all, I should have thought that the bankers are the experts —what demand is made upon them for these notes to enable each person to convert whatever securities he may have to ordinary notes for the purpose of carrying out day-to-day transactions. I believe that it is as simple as that. However, I am not an economist, and it may be that it is not as simple as that.
  10.37 p.m.
  The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Anthony Barber): I should like, first, to say how grateful I am to the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin) for his opening remarks of welcome to me at these biannual debates. I am bound to tell him that just now, when he referred me to the debate which took place on 1st April, 1958, I felt some relief at sitting on this Bench, because when he was referring to the question whether or not people had confidence in the Government of the day then, I noticed that he said:
  "They see a Government moving towards its demise at a rather rapid pace …".— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st April, 1958; Vol. 585. c. 1164–5.]

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  I am fortunate, in the circumstances, to be here this evening and to be able to deal with the points which have been raised. I hope that when I have finished what I have to say, the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends, and my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Mr. Mawby), will feel that I have answered reasonably satisfactorily the questions which were raised.
  I regret that owing to the Ruling of your predecessor, a few moments ago, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, it will not be open to me, under this Order, to go into the more general questions of the economic situation which were touched upon by the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Ginsburg), nor into the wider question of monetary policy which was referred to yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We still have a couple of days to go and no doubt the hon. Gentleman, if he catches the eye of the Chair, will have the chance to go into the points again.
  The hon. Member for Dewsbury referred to the fact that for the past two years there had been a considerable rise in the note issue. I should like to give him the assurance that as far as the Government are concerned, and the Bank of England, also, this is a matter which we take very seriously and which we watch very carefully. On the other hand, I think it fair to make the point that the extent of the rise in the note issue is only one of many indicators which are relevant either to the question of inflation or to the question of the level of economic activity.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes referred specifically to the point raised by, I think, the hon. Member for Loughborough, about inflation. I think it was suggested that the extent of the note issue was in itself an indicator of inflation. I must say that I do not think that that is necessarily so. It is true that in certain circumstances it could be an indicator of inflation, but, in general, I would have thought that that was not so—and certainly not without going into great detail.
  It is a fact that over the past two years—I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House would agree with this—we have been able, reasonably successfully, to contain inflation, and yet during these past two years the
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  amount of the fiduciary note issue has increased. As my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes rightly pointed out, if habits change and people use cheques more than they do at present that in itself would be a tendency towards the reduction of the note issue, or, at any rate, towards moderating the increase which has been taking place. No doubt as activity continues the increase in the note issue in the future will also continue.
  As the hon. Member for Loughborough rightly said, the purpose of this Order is to extend for another two years the powers of the Treasury to increase by direction the amount of the fiduciary issue over the amount of £1,575 million which was laid down in the Currency and Bank Notes Act, 1954. I understood from the hon. Gentleman that if he were satisfied on the principal questions which he and his hon. Friends raised it was not the intention of the Opposition to divide the House. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he said and for his co-operation.
  I do not think that it could be argued that the Bank of England—the relationship between the Bank and the Treasury has been referred to—should not have the task of representing to the Treasury that it is expedient for the fiduciary note issue to be altered. The real question which has been raised by hon. Gentlemen opposite is really what is the economic significance of the increase in the fiduciary issue—in other words, what is the economic significance of the size of the note circulation.
  The hon. Member for Dewsbury referred to the Radcliffe Report and to the conclusions reached in that Report. Since the last debate two years ago, on 1st April, 1958, we have had the advantage of seeing the evidence which was given to the Radcliffe Committee. I think that the significance of the fiduciary note issue was well stated by the Governor of the Bank of England when he gave his evidence, and certainly the significance of the note issue has not changed.
  I do not think that I can do better than quote a short passage from what was said by the Governor of the Bank of England.
  "The size of the note circulation is very important. It is a figure which we watch continuously as a significant component of the

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  total money supply: and I think it is one of the figures which should be continually before the public. But this does not alter the fact that the present rôle of the Issue Department in the supply of currency is passive."
  The hon. Member for Loughborough asked to what extent we control the fiduciary issue. At present, it is not considered the purpose of the Bank or Her Majesty's Government to exercise any positive control over it. The rôle of the Bank of England is simply to supply the amount of notes which the banks and the public desire to hold and not in any way to restrict the supply of notes below the level of the demand.
  After all, as I think was implicit in what was said by the hon. Member for Loughborough, if the Bank of England refused to supply the clearing banks with the notes required by their customers it would lead either to an increased use of cheques, or an increased trade in postal orders or other means of payment or a run on the banks, and complete and utter confusion.
  Mr. Cronin: We have agreed that the fiduciary issue is a fairly constant fraction of the total amount of money in circulation. We are concerned to know to what extent the Government are able to control the total amount of money in circulation, because the fiduciary issue depends on that.
  Mr. Barber: It would be truer to say that the proportion which the note issue bears to the money national income is more relevant. In general terms, I think that it is about 10 per cent. The extent to which the money is controlled, or to which it would be desirable to control it, raises a wide issue with which I could not deal in five or ten minutes; and if I attempted to do so I should be out of order.
  Mr. Cronin: I am sorry to interrupt again, but I think that this is fairly important. We do not want to go into a general dissertation on fiscal policy. But the fiduciary issue is a fraction of the total amount of the money. The total amount consists of the fiduciary issue plus the bank deposits, and the Government can control the fiduciary issue only by controlling the total amount of money in circulation. We should like the hon. Gentleman to tell us how the Government control the total amount of money in circulation. If they do not
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  do anything to control the fiduciary issue, how do they control the bank deposits which activate the fiduciary issue? To what extent have the Government power to control the banks?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Sir William Anstruther-Gray): Order. I am doubtful whether the control of the banks can properly be discussed under this Order.
  Mr. Cronin: I consider that this is germane to our discussion, because in the final analysis the fiduciary issue is handed across the counters of the banks. Therefore, the control of the banks must be germane to this discussion.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I do not think that we want to go too far into this on the detail of the Order. I do not think that that could be done.
  Mr. Barber: With respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I would agree with what you say because, as the hon. Member for Loughborough said earlier, there is a relationship between bank advances and bank deposits. The question of bank advances raises the whole question of control of credit by the Government, which is just the sort of matter that we have been discussing during the last two days, and shall continue to discuss tomorrow and Thursday.
  I was trying to explain what would happen if, in fact, the Bank of England refused to supply the clearing banks with the bank notes that are required by their customers, and I was pointing out that if that happened it would lead to considerable confusion. What happens, in practice, is that the Bank of England has to meet a demand for bank notes before Easter, Whitsun, August Bank Holiday and Christmas. In other words, there is a seasonal rise, as the hon. Gentleman knows, in the demand for these notes. The pattern has been roughly the same in recent years although, of course, the level of the fiduciary note issue has risen over the period.
  As the hon. Gentleman rightly said, bank notes are only part of the total money supplied, the larger part being, of course, bank deposits. People wanting bank notes are entitled to have them up to the amount that they are allowed to withdraw from their banks. The

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  volume of notes in circulation, therefore, is wholly determined by the demand for bank notes by the public, and demand for bank notes means demand for cash— cash for every-day needs, both domestic needs and the needs of business.
  It may well be, as I indicated earlier, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes suggested, that, in due course, the increased use of cheques will of itself tend to cut down the demand for bank notes. There can, however, be no question of trying to control the volume of money by saying that people who want to withdraw some or all of their balances should not be able to obtain bank notes if they so desire.
  Ever since the Currency and Bank Notes Bill was before the House, it has been recognised—
  Mr. Ginsburg: I do not want to press the hon. Gentleman too far, because he has been very helpful, but I mentioned a third component in the total supply of money—the velocity of the circulation of the note issue itself. Can the Economic Secretary give the House any information on that concept, and can he also say whether, in future, it will be possible for the Government to produce statistics on the velocity of circulation of money in the economy?
  Mr. Barber: I had not anticipated, I must admit, that on this Order the question of velocity of circulation would arise. What I should be very pleased to do would be to look into that point and, perhaps, I could, if necessary, write to the hon. Gentleman about it.
  I was saying that it has been recognised ever since the Currency and Bank Notes Bill was before the House that Parliament should have the opportunity of considering any permanent increase in the level of the fiduciary note issue. This was because of its importance as one of several indicators of the level and pattern of economic activity. There was also the possibility—remote, I hope—that there might one day be a Government which wanted to use the note issue actively as a means of deliberately inflating the supply of money. That, however, is unlikely in the foreseeable future.
  The size of the note issue recently has borne a remarkably constant proportion
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  to the size of the money national income, and I think that one would naturally expect this result, on the hypothesis that bank notes are, as it were, the small change of the monetary system.
  I have tried as best I can to deal with most of the points raised in this short but useful debate. As I have said, the question of the fiduciary note issue is a matter which the Government certainly will continue to watch. It is one of the indicators of economic activity, but in view of the practical necessity of satisfying the demands of the public for cash I hope that the House will accept the Order and that the Prayer will be withdrawn.
  10.56 p.m.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: I think that we can all agree with the Economic Secretary that it would certainly not be desirable that the Bank of England should not be able to meet the demands of the public for notes. Our intention in putting down this Prayer was a probing intention, and we do not intend to use our strength to defeat the Order.
  At the same time, this is an important issue, and while the hon. Gentleman paid considerable attention to answering points which have been put to him, I do not think that he gave us as clear an idea of the movements of the Government on this matter as I would have liked to hear. The Government's right, through the Bank of England, to print a great sum of money is a matter of considerable importance.
  There is great agitation on the benches opposite about Government spending. This is a hardly less important matter. I do not know whether Members opposite who are here this evening are rebels or loyal supporters of the Government. Most of them do not look in very rebellious mood at the moment, but this is a matter of considerable importance on which we might have expected to hear from some of those who have been strenuously complaining about the Government's carelessness with public money at present.
  The burden of what the Economic Secretary said was that the Government were entirely passive in this matter, that they just sit back and meet the demands of the public. He also assured us that they take this very seriously and watch

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  very carefully the size of the fiduciary note issue. We are glad to know they do that, but I do not know that it is a very useful form of watching, because they can, in fact, do nothing about it.
  However, we are glad to know that they take in the evidence, even if they are not in a position to act upon it. This is, I believe, a reasonably enlightened theory, but it certainly was not the theory held on the benches opposite or, indeed, in the Treasury a relatively short time ago. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft) was Chancellor of the Exchequer he pinned his colours very firmly to the mast as to the amount of money being absolutely the determining factor in whether or not we had inflation or stable prices.
  It is true—and no one would deny it —that the fiduciary note issue is not an insignificant part; it is a part, but not the major pact, of the total supply of money, but I understood that it was the view of the Government two years ago, when we last debated these matters, that it was in a sense a determining part, because the relationship of the fiduciary issue to the total quantity of money, made up of the fiduciary issue and the total of bank deposits, was so constant that one could, as it were, work out the total amount of money at any time, provided that one knew the amount of the fiduciary issue.
  The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, who was then Paymaster-General, and who replied to that debate, said:
  "Secondly, I hope it will be agreed generally that the significance in economic terms is not the volume of bank notes but the volume of money, and that the volume of bank notes is a proportion of that, and normally a hardly varying proportion of the total volume of money."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st April, 1958; Vol. 585, c. 1177.]
  As I understood it this evening, the hon. Member's thought had advanced, perhaps moved—I will not say whether advanced or not—but had moved a little from that position, because the Government are anxious to tell us what is the relationship between the fiduciary issue and national income—not necessarily the volume of money. As far as I can see, this marks a slight change in Government emphasis. I make no complaint about that. I have no desire for the Government to remain absolutely
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  wedded to the views which they put forward two years ago, but, at any rate, it was certainly the view of the President of the Board of Trade two years ago, and I think that it is broadly the view of the Government now, that there is a close relationship between the total volume of money and the amount of the fiduciary issue—perhaps "close relationship" is the wrong expression and "constant relationship" is better.
  Undoubtedly, when he was at the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Monmouth took the view that these two considerations together were crucial to the whole inflationary issue, but now, as I understand it, more sophisticated doctrines prevail at the Treasury and we are asked to accept the view, not that it is in no way crucial to the inflationary position, but that it is something which is entirely determined by the demand of the public for notes and that there is not very much the Government can do about it. That is a big change from the doctrine which prevailed at the Treasury two-and-a-half years ago.
  On the whole, it is an improved doctrine. We make no complaint about it, but it is important that the House should take note of the fact and of the extent to which the Treasury pundit has now been completely abandoned by the Government in their new thinking. I hope that by the time we come to debate this issue again, in two years—with a slight change of team for the sake of variety—as no doubt we shall in some form, the Government will not have changed round so completely as they did during the previous two-and-a-half years.
  11.2 p.m.
  Mr. Cronin: In view of the lateness of the hour, I shall make only two or three brief comments. The Economic Secretary said that in the last debate I said that the Government were moving towards their demise. I still adhere to that opinion, with the qualification that that demise has been interrupted by the General Election.
  Another point was whether the fiduciary issue was an index of inflation. It is interesting to note that from 1951 it has increased from £1,500 million to £2,000 million, a proportion of about three to four, while, at the same time, the value of the £ has fallen from 20s. to 15s. in 1951 terms. So the fiduciary

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  issue follows roughly the course of inflation.
  I am disappointed that the Economic Secretary did not give us some definite views about how the Government control the banks which control the total amount of money. I rather felt that my hon. Friends used the rules of order as a starting horse and the Economic Secretary used them as a shield. As a result, we have not got as much information as we would like. Nevertheless, with that proviso, I must say that the hon. Gentleman has been most helpful. We have had a very agreeable debate, conducted in the most urbane atmosphere, and very useful opinions have been expressed on both sides of the House.
  I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  SMALL COAL MINES (OPERATION)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. E. Wakefield.]
  11.4 p.m.
  Mr. Rupert Speir: I apologise to you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to the Minister and the House for raising yet another subject at this rather late hour. I realise that by so doing I have prevented you and other Members from going out of the Palace of Westminster and into St. James's Park to witness the fireworks display there. I fear that my own fireworks display will be very subdued by comparison, but I must make it clear that I nevertheless feel very strongly, as do many others, about the subject which I wish to raise. It is the subject of the issue and control by the National Coal Board of licences to operate small coal mines.
  Many people who have nothing to do with the coal trade imagine that when the Socialist Government of 1945, in the full flush of victory, carried out their nationalisation of the coal industry, they nationalised the whole of the industry and destroyed any private enterprise in coal mining. In fact—and it is important to realise this—that was not the case. Even the Socialists, in their heyday of nationalisation, when they thought that nationalisation
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  had come to stay, allowed the small mines, that is to say, small coal mines or small clay mines employing not more than 30 men, to continue to be private owned and operated.
  Today, there are between 500 and 600 small privately owned and operated mines, employing about 8,000 men. These mines are scattered all over Britain, from the difficult and remote mountainous country of South Wales through the Midlands and North of England into the lowlands of Scotland. For the most part, these small mines are owned and operated by small men. By that I mean ordinary miners gifted with courage and initiative; men with an independent spirit; men whom, I should have thought, we would want to encourage and reward. They are men who, although small in numbers, are great in spirit and are the kind of people who have made Britain great.
  Until recently things have been going reasonably well with these small mines, although they have had no subsidies from the Exchequer and no assistance from the taxpayer. Their number has grown since they wore allowed to remain in private hands under the 1946 Nationalisation Act. The Minister will remember that soon after he took office, in the autumn of last year, I warned him that I thought that the National Coal Board was not treating these small mines in a fair and reasonable manner. Since then a new situation has developed, particularly in the last few weeks, because, in the majority of cases, the licences to operate these mines came to an end at the end of March.
  The terms and conditions which these small mines have been offered—perhaps I should say the terms which have been dictated, because they have scarcely been offered these terms—for the renewal of their licences would, if they had been accepted in the first instance, have meant the closure and death of dozens, if not hundreds, of these small mines.
  I realise that it can be argued that because these small mines are so small; because their output by comparison with the Coal Board is infinitesimal—it is, in fact, less than 2 per cent. of the total production of the Board—they should be safely forgotten and ignored. Some people might even take the view that in these days of large nationalised industries

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  and State monopolies these small mines are an anachronism which ought to be wiped out. I cannot accept that view, and it is not a view which would commend itself to the House or to the country if the full facts were known to all concerned.
  I know that it may be suggested that since there is over-production of coal from all the mines in Britain today, and since the Coal Board is unable to pay its way and there are 30 million tons of coal stocked above ground, these small mines ought to be discouraged. It may be said that they ought to be prevented from adding to the difficulties of the Board. I can see that that is a debatable argument; it is a point of view which some people may possibly hold. I can understand people suggesting all that, although I cannot accept it myself.
  People can argue that, because there is this problem of coal stocks, and because the Board is losing money and closing down a large number of pits which are uneconomic and unable to pay, the small mines, too, ought to close although they are economic pits; and I emphasise, economic pits. They must be economic because, otherwise, they would not stay in existence. They have no Treasury subsidy or support from the taxpayers.
  Furthermore, it can be said that the small mines ought to bear the same reduction in output as is being borne by the Coal Board. That, too, seems a reasonable argument, but as a matter of fact, even if it were a fair cut all round, this would not be fair for a number of reasons to the small mines. But this is not the proposition which was put forward by the Board when it came forward with its revised plan for coal last autumn. It came forward, as I understand it, with the suggestion that production from the small mines, which last year amounted to about 2½ million tons, should be reduced this year to 2 million tons, and to 1½ million tons by 1962. That meant that, whereas the Coal Board, taking into account its reduction in opencast mining, was to make a reduction of 12 per cent. in output, the small mines would have to make a reduction of 40 per cent.
  That was the first plan put forward and, in addition, it was said that there was to be an increase of royalty amounting
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  in some cases to as much as 500 per cent. So I say straight away that I have heard no good reason why there should be such a vast increase in royalty payments and I would particularly welcome any enlightenment which the Minister might be able to give on that aspect of this matter.
  Since that plan was first put forward certain negotiations have taken place; and I admit that they have led to an improved offer being made by the Coal Board. The Minister probably was largely responsible for this improvement; but even so, I cannot pretend that these latest proposals are satisfactory, or that the small mines are being offered a fair deal. They are still being asked to do more than that Coal Board mines in cutting production. The present proposals are that the small mines should cut their sales by 12 per cent. this year, but by 32 per cent. in 1962. That is based on the 1958 production, which will mean that the cut that is being asked from South Wales will amount to no less than 38 per cent. by 1962.
  What would acceptance of these terms mean? First, it would undoubtedly mean, particularly concerning South Wales, the irretrievable loss of recent capital expenditure of some of the small mines, of which literally dozens have been opened up only in the last few years at the encouragement of the Coal Board.
  Secondly, it would mean that dozens of small mines which now pay their way and earn their keep without any subsidy from the taxpayer would be bludgeoned out of existence and forcibly closed down, not by competition, but by the dictates of a great State monopoly.
  Thirdly, it would mean that at a time when the Government and the Chancellor of the Exchequer are continually asking business and commerce to reduce prices, the Coal Board, by this policy of reducing the sales from the small mines, would be forcing the existing customers of those small mines to pay more for their coal. As, generally, the small mines are producing better coal than the Coal Board mines, it would mean, at the same time, that the customers of the small mines will get an inferior coal.
  That is an extraordinary state of affairs in the 'sixties, at a time when we thought that we had got back to

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  an opportunity Britain, at a time when we thought that Britain, in General Election after General Election, had demonstrated that it was "fed up" with nationalisation and wanted to see enterprise encouraged and rewarded.
  Finally, since there is a national shortage of anthracite and since some of the small mines in the North of England, in Cumberland, produce anthracite, unless a special exception is made in the case of these mines there will be a forced curtailment of the supply of anthracite at a time when there is a national shortage of it. Therefore, when my right hon. Friend the Minister replies to this debate—I realise that for various reasons he must be guarded and circumspect in what he says—I hope that, at least, he will be able to deal with that aspect of the problem.
  I shall also be grateful if my right hon. Friend will say something about the selling price not only of anthracite, but of all coal produced and sold by the small mines. Can he, for instance, give a clear and definite assurance that, whatever the Coal Board may do or say to the small mines, they will not be in any way discouraged or prevented from selling their coal just as cheaply as they think fit?
  I realise that one or two other hon. Members may wish to intervene, and I do not want to detain the House much longer, but we are in an extraordinary position. I realise that this is a delicate moment. The so-called negotiations are still continuing. For my part, although my right hon. Friend may not agree with me, I think that a much more apt word than "negotiation" would be "dictation." I know, however, that some of the owners of these small mines are prepared to accept the Coal Board's offer. Others are reluctant to do so, and, frankly, I sympathise greatly with them in their dilemma. I have no doubt at all that they have justice on their side, but, unfortunately, they have not the power, the numbers, the influence, the money or the time.
  I say to these small men that I cannot accept the responsibility of advising them to refuse the terms now suggested by the Board. In fact, I must reluctantly advise them to sign the new licences, as many small men have had to do in history, under duress. All I
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  can do on behalf of the small men who are up against this vast State monopoly at this stage of the proceedings is to plead with the Minister to give an undertaking that if and when coal stocks are used up, and production equals consumption, he will see that the position of these small mines is reviewed and reconsidered. I plead with the Minister at least to give that undertaking.
  11.21 p.m.
  Mr. William Blyton: I intervene because I fundamentally disagree with the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir). He and I are good friends, but we are on entirely different platforms in this matter. I do not want, through my intervention, to prevent the Minister from replying to the hon. Member, but I am not quite certain what time the Adjournment debate began.
  The small mine owners cannot continue to have the best of both worlds. They have had it for a long time. When the National Coal Board could not export because we needed the coal here the small mine owner was getting the benefit of the high prices in the export market. Now that the export market prices have fallen far below the internal price of coal, they are fighting to get as much as they can of the free market within the home market with a contracting mining industry. They cannot have the best of both worlds any longer.
  The case made by the hon. Member for Hexham has been that of the small mine owners and not so much that of the men employed in the small mines. The National Union of Mineworkers refuses to support the small mine owners in their present agitation.
  Mr. Speir: Is the hon. Member speaking as a member of the National Union of Mineworkers?
  Mr. Blyton: I can speak on behalf of the union. If a small mine is closed, the union will do what it usually does for its members, placing the displaced men in other collieries. Men in my consituency are having to go 10 to 12 miles to work because local collieries, to which thousands of pounds of capital expenditure has been devoted, have been closed —not uneconomic pits but pits with a life of only six to ten years in front of them.

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  We cannot, as we did last year, put 16 million tons of coal on the ground and let the small mine owners produce all they can and not accept their fair share of the contracting mining industry which is meeting competition from fuel oil and liquid methane. What does the Board say? "All you will do is take a fair share of the cut which the deep mines are facing between now and 1965." I did not hear the hon. Member for Hexham express one word of sympathy. Between now and 1965 we shall close 240 mines.
  Mr. Speir: Uneconomic pits.
  Mr. Blyton: No. Not uneconomic pits. Pits with only six to ten years' life have to close down because we cannot find a market for coal. Not only are we facing that. We may face a further contraction, if oil eats still further into the home market and if liquid methane imports are increased. What the hon. Member for Hexham is arguing is that the little mine owners should have the field and that as many nationalised pits as we like should be closed, so long as the small mine owner has the field to himself. That is the kernel of the hon. Member's argument. We are not prepared to accept that position.
  Do not let it be said that the Coal Board is trying to close the small mines. But they must take their share of the burden; they must take their share of the contraction of the mining industry. If that does not happen, more deep-mine pits will close.
  11.26 p.m.
  The Minister of Power (Mr. Richard Wood): I apologise for the absence of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, who has recently been making a special study of this question. At the moment, he is in South Wales and has asked me to reply to this debate tonight.
  What the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Blyton) has just said has shown this—although I suspect that my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir) was not entirely in agreement with his remarks—that the situation between the small mines, on the one side, and the National Coal Board on the other, is not, in fact, exactly comparable The suggestion that there can be a comparable cut has never seemed to me to be an accurate idea. There are
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  the differences which the hon. Member has mentioned—the export position and the stocking position—and those are not exactly comparable.
  Recently, there has been a great deal of interest in this question, and, as the House will be aware, a deputation from the Federation of Small Mines came to see me in February. As this was a matter for which the National Coal Board was responsible, I naturally communicated the views which the Federation expressed to me to the Chairman of the Coal Board.
  I should like to contradict what my hon. Friend said about there being an absence of negotiations. Negotiations, as he knows, have restarted. The Coal Board has gone a long way to meet many of the objections of the Federation, and the House is most anxious, as I perceived very clearly at Question Time last week, to have a settlement. This issue at the moment, and, in fact, all the time, is one between the Board and the Federation, and I do not think that it is for me to discuss the details of the negotiations. I understand that there is a very good chance of a settlement. I was glad to hear what my hon. Friend said about not wishing to spoil the chances of a settlement. I think that a settlement will be reached which is acceptable to both sides, and I do not want to say anything tonight which will prejudice it.
  I should like to take the opportunity, in the four minutes which are left to me, to answer one or two of the points raised by my hon. Friend. The present royalties were fixed ten years ago, when the primary consideration was to get the maximum coal production. Therefore, the fixing of an economic royalty was a secondary consideration. There has been a great deal of change between 1950 and 1960, and the Board felt that the 1950 criteria were no longer appropriate to 1960. Therefore, what the Board has done—whether my hon. Friend agrees or not—is to try to arrive at what it believes to be a fair economic royalty, bearing in mind, at the same time, the change in the price of coal between 1950 and 1960.
  My hon. Friend asked for an undertaking about the ability of the small mines to sell as cheaply as possible. I understand that part of the discussions which are taking place have centred

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  round an agreement, which I think the Federation is willing to reach with the Board, about the need of consultation between the Board and the Federation in the future if at any time the Board wishes to exercise control over prices. Except for the Scottish division, where there is a special agreement between the division and the local federation, the Coal Board has not operated any control over the selling prices of small mines.
  My hon. Friend painted the picture in South Wales and elsewhere in, I think, very much too dark colours. First, if hardship threatens there is the possibility—and here I am on difficult ground, because I am only talking of possibilities which, I gather, are being discussed in the negotiations—of the divisional boards being able to suspend the limit on disposals of such scarce coals as anthracite and the possibility of the divisions being able to increase the limit up to 10 per cent. if exceptional hardship is likely to be caused by it.
  I again contradict my hon. Friend when he suggests that the small mines have had to sign under duress. These discussions began in September and they were told clearly then that the Coal Board would have to limit the disposals when licences expired on 31st March.
  The last thing which my hon. Friend asked was whether the Coal Board would be willing to review the position later if the demand for coal revived. I understand that after the early discussions
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  with the Board the Federation decided to recommend acceptance of negotiated levels of output for the next three years.
  I would certainly give my hon. Friend, on behalf of the Coal Board, an undertaking that the Board will keep the quotas under review in the light of changing demand. I believe that the Board has actually told the Federation that in those terms. I would like to put in my hon. Friend's mind the thought that these new licences which are being issued at present are being issued until 1970, and that, therefore, the licensed operators are assured if not of as large a quota as they would like, at least—unlike the Coal Board—of a minimum level of production for ten years. That, I think, is quite an important point.
  I hope that I have shown that I am not unsympathetic to the problem of the small mines, but in the present condition of reduced demand I am quite convinced that they must be prepared to accept some restriction on their output. My hon. Friend, I think, agrees that the Coal Board has made considerable attempts to meet the Federation's point of view. I am quite convinced that the House urgently wants a settlement, and I am confidently hopeful that an agreement which will be mutually satisfactory to both sides will very soon be reached.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-seven minutes to Twelve o'clock.

TANGANYIKA
  Education (Cambridge Joint Examination)
  Education (Cambridge Joint Examination)
DOMINICA
  Feeder Roads
  Feeder Roads
  General Election
  General Election
HONG KONG
  Seamen (Recruitment)
  Seamen (Recruitment)
  WESTERN EUROPE
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SCOTLAND
  North Eastern Regional Hospital Board
  North Eastern Regional Hospital Board
  Grants and Subsidies
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  Dumbarton County Council (Four-Appartment Houses)
  Dumbarton County Council (Four-Appartment Houses)
  Forth Road Bridge
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  Housing (Improvement Grants)
  Housing (Improvement Grants)
  Legal Aid Scheme
  Legal Aid Scheme
  Municipal and Privately-Owned Houses
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TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Mono-Ammonium Phosphate (Import Duty)
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NATIONAL FINANCE
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HOUSING
  Mortgages (Local Authority Advances)
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  Housing Subsidy (Wales)
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  Slum Clearance, Cardiff
  Slum Clearance, Cardiff
  Houses and Flats, Newcastle-upon-Tyne
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LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Colliery Spoil Heaps
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  Smoke Control Orders
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  Green Belts
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  Birmingham (Planning Application)
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  EARTHQUAKE, AGADIR (SCOTTISH VICTIMS)
  EARTHQUAKE, AGADIR (SCOTTISH VICTIMS)
  FOREIGN OFFICE, LONDON (STAFF)
  FOREIGN OFFICE, LONDON (STAFF)
  BRITISH EMBASSIES AND LEGATIONS (STAFF)
  BRITISH EMBASSIES AND LEGATIONS (STAFF)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Food Research Advisory Committee
  Food Research Advisory Committee
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Passport-Free Travel (Agreements)
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EMPLOYMENT
  Crewe and District
  Crewe and District
  Apprenticeships
  Apprenticeships
  Remploy Factory, Wales
  Remploy Factory, Wales
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Retirement Pensioners, Glasgow (National Assistance)
  Retirement Pensioners, Glasgow (National Assistance)
COAL
  South Wales
  South Wales
ROADS
  High Street, Stony Stratford (Restricted Waiting Order)
  High Street, Stony Stratford (Restricted Waiting Order)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Lichfield
The Marquess of Dufferin and Ava—Took the Oath.
The Lord Dunleath—Took the Oath.

HOSPITAL CONSULTANTS' MERIT AWARDS
2.35 p.m.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government the percentage of (a) consultants, and (b) consultants aged 50 or more, employed by Boards of Governors of teaching hospitals, who are in receipt of A and B merit awards.]
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, of the consultants employed by boards of governors, 33·5 per cent, are in receipt of A and B merit awards. Consultants also employed by Regional Hospital Boards are included in this figure. Her Majesty's Government regret that the information requested in the second part of the noble Lord's Question is not at present available in the form required.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would be kind enough to give me the information asked for in the first part of my Question, without including the consultants and others employed by Regional Hospital Boards who are added on to the total, thereby confusing the figure at which I am trying to arrive.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, this is, to a certain extent, a continuation of the amiable but inconclusive exchange that I had with the noble Lord last Thursday, on his Questions of that day. As I understand it, the noble Lord asks for an overall figure. That overall figure is 33·5 per cent. That is the true figure
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in respect of consultants employed by boards of governors. If I were to subtract from that, as the supplementary question asks me to do, the proportion of consultants employed by boards of governors but also employed by Regional Hospital Boards, while I might be able to do that it would not be a true figure according to the noble Lord's Question to-day or his two Questions on Thursday last. If the noble Lord wishes me to mislead him in this way I will undertake this unnatural operation, though with the greatest regret; and I should like to make clear that I will do so as openly and transparently as possible.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I think that the noble Lord has got it muddled again. I believe he is including in the figure persons employed as consultants by Regional Hospital Boards who are employed as registrars and in other capacities by boards of governors. Otherwise, there is no point in the noble Lord's subtraction sum. Moreover, is the noble Lord aware that a little calculation based on the tables given in the Report of the Royal Commission will show that the answer I require is 40 per cent., and that the answer to the Question which the noble Lord is unable to give is, in fact, 83 per cent.?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, naturally I am not going to tell the noble Lord that he is muddled; but he is, in fact, mistaken—
LORD TAYLOR: No.
LORD ST. OSWALD: —because the fact is that the true answer to the first part of the noble Lord's Question to-day is 33·5 per cent. If he wishes me to make a subtraction, I can do that, not in relation to this Question but in relation to the two Questions he asked me last Thursday. I then gave him the overall figure of 59·3 per cent.; and subtracting from that the proportion of consultants with merit awards employed both by boards of governors and by Regional Hospital Boards, the figure is 50 per cent.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I am very interested, because I believe the figure to be 80 per cent.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, when the noble Lord questioned my figures the other day I checked them very carefully,

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and on doing so was told that my figures were absolutely correct. If the noble Lord is interested in having the second figure for which he has asked, the overall figure for consultants employed by Regional Hospital Boards is 30·9 per cent. as I told him. If we subtract from that the proportion of consultants employed both by Regional Hospital Boards and by boards of governors, the figure becomes 24 per cent.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, I believe the last figure is correct.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I am delighted to hear it, but I believe that the noble Lord will find that both figures are correct.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, could a learned mathematical treatise now be published on this question so that your Lordships might clear it up?
LORD ST. OSWALD: Not from me, my Lords.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, is the "overall figure" what used to be called the total?
LORD UVEDALE OF NORTH END: My Lords, arising out of this Question, may I ask whether it is true that the only secret awards made by Her Majesty's Government are either in the Secret. Service Department of the Foreign Office or in the Health Service, and whether there is any parallel between the functions of these two Departments?
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I think there is absolutely no parallel whatever between those two Departments. The fact is that it was agreed that the identities of those receiving awards under the awards system, should be kept secret, if the noble Lord wishes to say so—at any rate, should not be divulged.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, is not the truth of the matter that the thing will not stand up to scrutiny?

THE BISHOP OF JOHANNESBURG
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, with permission, I beg to ask the Question of which I have given Private Notice: Whether Her Majesty's Government will make a statement on the position of the Bishop of Johannesburg.
THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (LORD MILLS): My Lords, I understand that it has been agreed through the usual channels that my noble friend the Leader of the House will answer this Question in the form of a statement later this afternoon. My noble friend will also make a statement on United Kingdom persons detained in South Africa.

LORD CHANCELLOR'S VISITS TO NEW ZEALAND AND CHICAGO
2.46 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to make a personal statement. In my capacity as Lord Chancellor I have received from the Law Society of New Zealand an invitation to deliver the opening address at their Dominion Legal Conference, which is to be held in Wellington from April 19 to 22. These Conferences are held at intervals of three years, and are attended by all the leading lawyers of New Zealand. On this occasion a number of lawyers from Australia will also be present. I understand that there has been no previous instance when a Lord Chancellor has attended such a Conference. Your Lordships may think it fitting that I should take this opportunity to signify the high regard which we hold for New Zealand and for the profession of law in that country.
My attendance at this Conference makes it necessary for me to leave England on April 13. I hope to travel via Singapore, and while there to see the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk. I am sure that your Lordships would desire me to convey to him your good wishes on his important task. I should add that I have also been invited to attend Convocation at Chicago University on Sunday, May 1, in order that an honorary Degree of Doctor of Laws may be conferred upon me. It is therefore proposed that I should

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return from New Zealand by way of Chicago, arriving in England on Tuesday, May 3. As the House reassembles on Tuesday, April 26, these arrangements would involve my missing the Sittings in that week. Accordingly I ask your Lordships' agreement to my being absent from my place on the Woolsack. If your Lordships are good enough to give me this leave of absence I am sure that I shall take with me to New Zealand and to the University of Chicago the good wishes of your Lordships from every quarter of the House.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will welcome the request that has been made for leave by the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack. I do not think we ought to let this occasion pass without just saying—certainly on behalf of the official Opposition, and I think the Whole House will agree with me—that we are very greatly indebted to the present Lord Chancellor for the great devotion he has shown in the service of the House in regard to all the great number of technical matters he has had to deal with. We appreciate so much his courtesy. I believe that he is really a man of quite strong emotions, and it therefore makes us all the more filled with admiration when we see the admirable way in which he controls those emotions and the always prevailing courtesy with which he deals with our dreadful rebellions on these Benches. I hope that the two visits he is to make will be not only of great assistance to the professional men who will be gathered in these Conferences but also of great enjoyment and pleasure to himself.
LORD REA: My Lords, in the interests of unanimity I should like on behalf of the less official Opposition to echo the words of the noble Viscount. We shall all miss the noble and learned Viscount when he is away, both those to whom he is such a support and those to whom he is in opposition, and many of us to whom he is an old or a new friend. I suggest that we have much to congratulate ourselves upon in his presence in his noble capacity of Casabianca and Sir Galahad, sitting on the wool-filled sack when all but he had fled; and in
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his second rôle, his strength being as the strength of ten; and, my Lords, we all know his heart is pure.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, may I thank the noble Viscount who leads for the Opposition and the noble Lord the Leader of the Liberal Party in this House for those very kind words. I shall treasure them for as long as I live.

CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS (COLLECTION OF LEVY) REGULATIONS, 1960
2.50 p.m.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE)THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE) rose to move, That the Draft Cinematograph Films (Collection of Levy) Regulations, 1960, be approved. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I expect your Lordships would like to take these two Regulations together. The first deals with the collection of levy and the second with the distribution of the levy. The Regulations are made under Sections 2 and 3 of the Cinematograph Films Act, 1957, and they amend the Cinematograph Films (Collection of Levy) Regulations, 1957, and the Cinematograph Films (Distribution of Levy) Regulations, 1957. All they do is to provide that exhibitors showing non-standard films over 16 millimetres in width should pay levy, and that makers of certain British non-standard films of similar size should be eligible to receive levy. The change is not an extensive one. In practice it mainly affects the type of films over 35 millimetres, of which one is Todd-AO and another Cinerama.
Your Lordships may possibly remember that on Second Reading I explained why these non-standard films had not previously been subject to the levy. It was felt that when new techniques of this kind were introduced—Cinerama, for instance, has been going for only about five years—since they involved a great deal of capital expenditure it was reasonable to allow them to find their feet, and that the experiments which they involved should not be hampered as they might have been if exhibitors of these films had had to pay levy. But now it is felt that the conversion of cinemas to these new techniques has gone about as far as it it likely to go, and there no longer

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appears to be any reason why these films should be exempt from levy. The rest of the industry has always felt rather strongly that their competitors were getting away with not having to pay it; but I think it was reasonable not to impose the levy to begin with.
With regard to theatres which have been specially adapted for these new techniques, like the London Casino for Cinerama, it is not proposed to subject them to the quota. It would be unreasonable, I think, that they should have to alter the whole arrangement of their cinema programme for part of the year, at great expense, in order to fulfil a quota. They are, however, now to pay levy. If British films of this kind are made in this country, then they will be equally entitled to receive the proceeds of the levy, as well.
These proposals to bring non-standard films within the scope of the levy Regulations have been considered by the Cinematograph Films Council who must, by Statute, be consulted by the Board of Trade before Regulations are made. The Cinematograph Films Council have recommended, first, that the showing of non-standard films should now be liable for levy at the normal rates for standard films; and secondly, as a corollary, that any non-standard films meeting the labour costs and other requirements laid down for a British standard film should receive a share of the levy. These Regulations give effect to the Council's recommendations. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft Cinematograph Films (Collection of Levy) Regulations, 1960, be approved.—(The Earl of Dundee.)
2.54 p.m.
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, I venture to oppose these Regulations in their present form, and in doing so I must declare to your Lordships an interest in this matter. It is an interest which I have never had to declare before in my Parliamentary career, and I never expected to have to declare it to your Lordships' House. It is simply that I am the professional adviser to one of the companies concerned, the company which distributes and exhibits Cinerama, though I have no direct financial connection with them. If it had not been for the noble Earl's adoption of his usual
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courtesy and frankness in this matter, I might have been tempted to lay some of the blame upon him for having put me in this predicament of having to declare an interest to your Lordships, because it was largely his eloquence and his convincing argument in the Second Reading debate, to which he referred, that lulled Cinerama into such a sense of security, by being excluded from the quota system, that it was only recently brought to their attention that they were going to be included in the levy Regulations.
It is for that reason that, despite the Board of Trade having replied to the representations which were made to them with, if I may say so, unusual but commendable promptitude, there was no time for Cinerama to arrange for their point of view to be heard by your Lordships on consideration of these Regulations except through myself. I was so completely convinced that Cinerama was not to be included in these Regulations that I ventured to undertake the burden of attempting to submit their point of view to your Lordships in order that your Lordships might come to your own conclusion.
The brief point, as the noble Earl has clearly said, is that hitherto the levy has been collectable from the exhibitors of films which included only up to the standard films of 35 millimetres. I agree that that definition required amendment, because so much has developed in the cinema industry since the definition was created that it is no longer applicable. But now the noble Earl has, in my submission, swung too far the other way, and he has opened the door so that the levy is collectable from the exhibitors of all films which exceed 16 millimetres. It is a point to make, I think, that he could easily have amended the draft before now, had he so desired to exclude Cinerama, by limiting the upward measure to films which do not exceed 100 millimetres in width. I think, however, it is perfectly fair to say, as the noble Earl has already said, that it is recognised that there is no mistake here and it is the intention that the Regulations shall be made to apply to Cinerama.
Having, I hope, come to agreement that the Regulations include Cinerama, and that there would be no difficulty in excluding Cinerama, if your Lordships so thought fit, one really comes to the

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64,000 dollar question of whether Cinerama is justified in considering that it should be excluded from this levy. In my submission to your Lordships, there is no question about it whatever, because Cinerama is not an ordinary sort of film: it is something which is entirely exceptional and to which the normal considerations of the film industry do not apply.
Your Lordships are well aware, for instance, of the way in which films are distributed in this country. If you take the big feature films, as they are called, the expensive ones, they are given a run at a West End London cinema for a matter of a few weeks; they then go on circuit throughout the country and are distributed throughout all the provinces, and Scotland and Wales as well, in cinemas where they are seen by the public for up to a week at a time, and sometimes for three days. That is tone great difference, indeed, because Cinerama is shown at one theatre only in England; that is, as the noble Earl said, the London Casino. It is shown at that theatre only because it is an exceedingly costly process, as the noble Earl indicated, to convert a theatre for use by Cinerama: in fact, it costs some £50,000 for that purpose. Consequently, it is not the intention, nor has it ever been envisaged, that Cinerama shall go on circuit like an ordinary film and be seen throughout the country in other theatres.
And this is not exceptional to this country, my Lords. It is the circumstances of Cinerama itself. Excepting countries which are virtually continents in themselves—such as America, where there are several Cinerama theatres, and Australia, where there are two Cinerama theatres—I think Spain (and that for special reasons) is the only country which has more than one Cinerama theatre. In all, there are some thirty Cinerama theatres in the whole world; and if your Lordships will compare that with the total number of cinemas that there are throughout the whole world, you will appreciate the magnitude of the difference in that respect.
My Lords, that is a feature which applies to no other entertainment which is connected in any way with the film industry. The makers of other films of above standard size which have been
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developed have been able to make arrangements whereby they can be distributed in the normal way of films, but there is no anticipation of there being any possibility whatsoever, for technical reasons, of Cinerama being so distributed. Another point as your Lordships will appreciate is that the form of entertainment is something completely different. As I was saying just now, the public normally have the opportunity of seeing an ordinary film for a week in any given place. Cinerama runs in the same place for two years. That is the average length of the run of Cinerama: and it is a definite tourist attraction which is visited by people who come to London, whether from overseas, from Scotland or from the provinces. That is another reason why it is not intended, even if it were possible, that Cinerama itself should circulate throughout the country. It is, indeed, a unique venture, and it is something which is not in any way connected with the ordinary film industry as we understand it. Yet, if it is made subject to the levy, it will become involved in granting a subsidy to that very film industry. It seems exceedingly unfair that it should be subject to the collection of a levy for the benefit of the film industry as a whole, but should be excluded from any hope or anticipation of being able to benefit from that levy.
The noble Earl was perfectly right—and, if he will allow me to say so, was quite justified—in saying that Cinerama would become entitled to benefit from the levy if it produced a British film. I entirely agree; but I think my noble friend probably had his tongue in his cheek when he said that, because he must know as well as I do that it is quite impossible for Cinerama to become a British film. There are many reasons for that—largely of a technical nature, but some not technical. One, for instance, is that (as your Lordships who are familiar with these matters know) when a film is being made it is necessary for what are called "rushes" to be examined in order to see that the shooting of the film has come out satisfactorily, or whether it must be shot again. There is no facility in this country for processing a Cinerama film at the present time. Indeed, except for the London Casino, there is no facility even, for seeing a "rush" of a Cinerama film; and ob-

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viously it would not be practicable to show "rushes" during production work at the one and only Cinerama theatre that is available in this country. That is one point.
Another point is somewhat technical; that is, that there are seven sound tracks to a Cinerama film, which connect with 47 loudspeakers. That is something which does not happen in any other form of film production in the world. There is no other form of film which has so many sound tracks; and the apparatus necessary to score a Cinerama film is exceedingly complicated and, in fact, does not exist in this country at all. I am advised that to create and instal such machinery would of itself cost £250,000. That is something which obviously could not be contemplated in this country, when a Cinerama film is made, at the most, about every other year, so that for the rest of the time that expensive apparatus would be lying idle. Moreover, as your Lordships will appreciate if you have seen it, Cinerama is an international form of entertainment. It cannot be made in any one country, because the whole concept of it is to compare different parts of the world in the one entertainment. Consequently, to anticipate the creation of a British film in Cinerama is to anticipate an impossibility.
I do not wish to detain your Lordships any longer, save to deal with one point which the noble Earl made with regard to the recovery of the capital cost. That argument, so far as it goes (your Lordships will recall it) is very true, but it goes only as far as the exhibition of Cinerama. It may well be that the capital cost of the conversion of the London Casino has by now been recovered, but that is only one aspect of the capital cost involved. For the reasons I have indicated, the capital cost of the production of Cinerama is necessarily exceedingly expensive, and the outlets through which that cost can be recovered—namely, the thirty or so Cinerama theatres throughout the world—are so limited that the royalty which the producers have to impose upon the exhibitors is exceedingly high. In consequence, as your Lordships may have already felt personally, the cost of seats for Cinerama is proportionately very much higher than the average cost of seats at any ordinary cinema.
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I therefore submit to your Lordships that Cinerama is something which is quite exceptional. It is not part of the film industry in the ordinary sense. Indeed, logically, there is no greater justification for the imposition of the levy upon Cinerama for the benefit of the cinema industry than there would be for the imposition of the levy upon, for instance, something like My Fair Lady, again for the benefit of the film industry. I therefore submit to y our Lordships that the Regulations in their present form ought not to be passed, but that my noble friend should introduce into them a very minor Amendment. That is all that would be necessary, because there can be no other film of the magnitude of Cinerama, in excess of 100 millimetres, within the foreseeable life of, I think, any of your Lordships present here today. A simple Amendment of that sort would therefore preserve the position for Cinerama, and I submit to your Lordships that that should be done.
3.9 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Brentford, for his kindness in giving me notice that he intended to raise this matter on behalf of the Cinerama exhibitors, and I am also grateful for the very moderate and clear way in which he has put forward his case. He is quite right in saying that we could, if we thought it fair and just, exclude Cinerama from these Regulations by limiting them to films with a width of not more than 100 millimetres instead of to those with a width of anything over 16 millimetres; or something of that kind. We could manage to exclude it. But the Cinematograph Films Council and the Board of Trade agree that it would not be right to exclude Cinerama permanently from the levy. I have given your Lordships reasons why we thought it was justifiable while the industry was establishing itself here to exclude it; but it is not considered justifiable to extend that exclusion indefinitely.
My noble friend gave two reasons why he thought Cinerama should not be brought under the levy. One was that he represented that it was a different kind of entertainment altogether. At the moment, of course, it can be shown only at the London Casino. But I do not think I would necessarily accept that never at any time in any of our great

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provincial cities in other parts of England and Scotland can they ever afford to spend £50,000 on adapting a theatre to show films of this kind. I do not think we could take it as axiomatic that the same Cinerama film could never be shown in other parts of the country besides London. But even as it is now, the rest of the film industry decidedly regard Cinerama as a competitor. After all, it is a form of entertainment which is produced by making films; it is not produced in the same way as My Fair Lady was produced; it cannot be described as live theatre. And the Board of Trade, on the advice of the Cinematograph Films Council, feel that it would be unfair to the rest of the industry if we continued indefinitely to exclude it from the levy.
The noble Viscount went on to point out that, although Cinerama could pay the levy, it could never benefit from it because the Cinerama type of film could never be made in this country. That is a question which I do not think the Board of Trade are capable of judging. My noble friend gave a number of technical reasons why he said it would always be impossible, and I think that, for the time being at any rate, we must accept a statement of that kind which comes from people who know so much more about it that we do. While I do not see why it should be ruled out for all time that, in different circumstances, films of this kind would be able to rank as a British film, we must accept, on the strength of the statements which have been made, that in present circumstances that could not happen. But that does not mean that Cinerama is in any worse position than any other American or foreign film which does not qualify as a British production. The exhibitors who show foreign films have to pay the levy, but the films, not being a British production, do not qualify for any part of the distribution of the levy. We do not think it would be fair that Cinerama should be placed in a special, privileged position for an indefinite length of time on the ground that it is a different type of entertainment.
There is one respect in which there is no doubt at all that Cinerama is not different from the rest of the cinema industry, and that is in its liability until yesterday to pay entertainments tax. In
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the Budget, Cinerama, together with other films, has now been relieved of entertainments duty. It is estimated that the amount of duty on which Cinerama exhibitors will be relieved as a result of the Budget will be double what they are likely to have to pay in levy. Therefore I hope they will console themselves by what is, on balance, a substantial gain.
3.16 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, we have listened to two very competent speeches. I should not like these Regulations to pass without saying that I appreciated the case submitted by the noble Viscount who rose to oppose them. It seemed to me, at first sight, to be almost unthinkable that the general duty to be levied in this industry should apply to such a singular case as he put on behalf of Cinerama. On the other hand, the noble Earl who has just replied seems also to have made a study of the matter and has put a fairly competent answer. Therefore, I think I should be moved in the matter if I could have a little more information about the amount of the duty, and also about the date when Cinerama, as such, would become chargeable. It seems to me that the future of Cinerama is one that we ought to try to promote in this country. At present, judging from the noble Viscount's case, the prospects do not seem to be very great without a large capital expenditure. But if we could have information on those two points, then I think there might be some case for setting off the benefit not yet to be achieved until next August, I think it is, in the case of cinema duty.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: It is when the Finance Bill is passed. I think it is retrospective.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: That is some months ahead. I should be interested to know the date when this duty will apply to Cinerama, and what will be the amount actually levied upon it.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, with regard to the amount, it is estimated that the total amount of levy on all nonstandard films which are affected by these Regulations will be £250,000 on which far the greater part will come mainly from what are called Todd-AO films of 70 millimetres, which are twice

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the standard width of 35 millimetres. The proportion payable by Cinerama is estimated, I believe, by the Cinerama exhibitors themselves at about £60,000. The Board of Trade estimate is lower than that—it is about £40,000. But, of course, these are both estimates. Anyhow, it is a fairly small proportion of the total of £250,000 which is considered likely to have to be paid by the nonstandard films.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Is that not nearly 20 per cent. of the total?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Yes, my Lords, that is so. The date at which the new levy begins is April 17. With regard to the remission of entertainments duty, although it does not become legal until the Finance Bill is passed, I think the duty is abolished with effect from April 10, so in effect it is abolished at the same time as the levy begins. There will have to be new Regulations, because under these Regulations, which could not anticipate the abolition of duty, there are certain respects in which the levy may be related to the amount of duty, and, as the Chancellor said in his Budget speech yesterday, it has made necessary the introduction of new consolidating Regulations after the Finance Bill has been passed. But that will not make any difference to the amount of levy payable, or to the benefit which is earned by the remission of entertainments duty.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am in a little difficulty, in that I have not my usual cinematograph experts behind me this afternoon for immediate consultation, but I understand that, on the Government's estimate, Cinerama is to be charged £40,000, that the estimate of the Cinerama industry is £60,000, and that the total of the levy to be raised over the whole industry is £250,000.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Not over the whole industry. The amount last year was £3¾ million. I thought that what the noble Viscount wanted to know was the additional amount of levy resulting from the inclusion of these non-standard films in the 1957 Regulations. I did say that it was a comparatively small item—only £250,000 altogether out of a total of nearly £4 million, and out of that it
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is estimated that Cinerama may be liable for something between £40,000 and £60,000.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, the noble Viscount has put up a powerful case, although I am not persuaded completely in my mind that I should vote for him in the Division Lobby. I wonder whether the matter could be delayed just a few days until we could find time to think out the answers given by the noble Earl.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am sorry, but the Regulations cannot be amended. If we wanted to give effect to the noble Viscount's suggestion they would have to be withdrawn and new Regulations would have to be submitted; they are not capable of being amended in Parliament. These Regulations have been fully and carefully considered by the Cinematograph Films Council, together with the Board of Trade; and whilst I appreciate the force of the arguments which my noble friend Lord Brentford has put forward, I also feel that the case for doing this, in fairness to the cinema industry as a whole, is established, and that it would not be right for me, much as I should like to meet the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition, to agree to any postponement of these Regulations.
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, perhaps, with your Lordships' permission, I may briefly thank your Lordships very much for the interest you have taken in my argument, which is a difficult one to press, because I recognise that the owners and distributors of Cinerama are an American organisation and it is therefore not unnatural that the British representatives of the film industry in this country would desire that the contribution to the levy for British films should be payable by the American companies. If I may just confirm the reply which was given to the noble Viscount opposite, the levy is anticipated to produce about £60,000 a year from Cinerama in this country. The argument which the noble Earl put forward, that we should benefit as a result of the reduction in the entertainments tax, is I think, a double-edged one, because I know it had been hoped that if and when that occasion arose Cinerama would be able to reduce the price of its seats to the public, whereas now at least half

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of that benefit is simply a diversion of the public's funds to the film industry. On the other point, as to the proportion, it is true that only about one-quarter of the additional levy which is being raised will come from Cinerama, but the point is that the levy will be raised on some twenty or more additional cinemas, of which Cinerama has only one theatre.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE BISHOP OF JOHANNESBURG
3.23 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, may I repeat the Private Notice Question postponed earlier this afternoon, to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a statement on the position of the Bishop of Johannesburg?
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, I apologise to the noble Viscount; I am very grateful to him for allowing me to fulfil a public engagement which I had at lunch time.
The High Commissioner has reported that the Anglican Bishop of Johannesburg has arrived in Swaziland for a short stay before leaving for England later in the month. I have seen Press reports that the Bishop has asked the High Commissioner to find out from the Union Government whether they intend to detain him under the Union Emergency Regulations. If this Press report is correct, the request must have been made subsequently to the High Commissioner's report of the Bishop's arrival in Swaziland. I am making further inquiries of the High Commissioner. If the Bishop wishes to stay in Swaziland for longer than a month it will be open to him to do so, if he complies with the immigration law. He is not being required by the Swaziland Government to return to the Union.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Earl for his reply. I hope that it may be possible, as a result of the inquiries he is making of the High Commissioner, for us to have a further statement in a very short
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period. Those of us who are concerned about these particular matters in South Africa are very concerned that the great leader of a diocese should not in any way be interfered with in the conduct of his duties, which must include concern for the whole of the members of his Church and their families committed to his charge; and we are therefore very anxious that Her Majesty's Government may be quite certain in their attitude of protection of his rights in this matter. I have seen the report in The Times this morning, and I must say that I most heartily sympathise with the Bishop of Johannesburg in his statement of intentions.
THE EARL OF HOME: Of course, my Lords, we fully share the concern of the noble Viscount. The only news I have seen has been in the Press. I do not know what request the Bishop has made to the High Commissioner; nor do I know that there is any intention of the South African Government to take any action at all. I should like to clarify the situation before I say more.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, will Parliament be informed in due course of the arrest of any British subjects by the Union Government under the emergency powers?
THE EARL OF HOME: Almost at once; I am going to do it now.
LORD REA: My Lords, could the noble Earl inform us whether he is likely to make a further statement about the Bishop in the next few days? At the beginning of his statement he said the High Commissioner reported that the Bishop had arrived for a short stay. On the television and wireless the reports were that the Bishop had "turned up" in Swaziland, which had a rather sinister sound. Would the noble Earl be in a position to tell us what is behind it?
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I do not know the difference between turning up and arriving for a short stay—there may be none. But, as I said, I should like to get more facts about this situation. So far as I know, the Bishop is free to go anywhere, either back to the Union, to this country or anywhere else. I do not know the latest facts.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: With regard to the noble

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Earl's previous reference to the Press report, he has no doubt seen the reported statement in the London Times, that the Bishop said he had asked the British High Commissioner to find out from the South. African Government whether they intended to detain him under the Emergency Regulations. If (as was said, I think in the Guardian) he had been advised by his church authorities out there to leave, evidently there was something in the report of the intention to arrest him which led the church authorities to do that. This makes us very anxious, because this is a British citizen and we are responsible for the safety of his rights in the matter.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I am very anxious. This is a very unusual situation and a very unusual request in a very unusual situation. I think I must get the High Commissioner's advice before I say any more to the House on this matter; but I certainly will, of course, as soon as I can.

SOUTH AFRICAN TROUBLES AND U.K. CITIZENS
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, there is one other matter in which the House has been interested and which the noble Viscount has just mentioned, and with your permission I will make a statement about the position of the United Kingdom citizens who may have been under arrest in the Union of South Africa in the last few days. This is the latest information I have.
The United Kingdom High Commissioner in South Africa has reported that he has been assured by the Union Prime Minister that as soon as any arrested person has been identified to the satisfaction of the Union Government as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies or a British-protected person, the High Commissioner or his representative may have access to him.
The High Commissioner has so far been informed of the names of three United Kingdom citizens who have been arrested: Mr. Peter Wilkins, who has now been released; Miss Hannah Stanton and Dr. Elias Letele. The High Commissioner is arranging to send a representative to visit both Miss Stanton and Dr. Letele immediately.
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The High Commissioner has been further assured by the Union Prime Minister that persons against whom charges are brought will appear before the ordinary courts and may be legally represented. If they apply for bail this will be a matter for the courts to decide.

CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS (DISTRIBUTION OF LEVY) REGULATIONS, 1960
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I beg to move these Regulations.
Moved, That the Draft Cinematograph Films (Distribution of Levy) Regulations, 1960, be approved.—(The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

GAS BILL
3.30 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The provisions of this Bill fall into two clauses, and I do not thinks that the House will wish me to deal at any length with Clause 2, which provides for the recovery by the Minister of Power of certain expenses which he incurs in connection with the testing of gas. This is an administrative provision of which the financial implications are fairly small and it corrects an inadvertent deficiency of the Gas Act, 1948. I will therefore address my remarks to the first clause, which provides for an increase in the borrowing powers of the Gas Council from £450 million to £500 million or to such greater sum, not exceeding £525 million, as the Minister may by Order specify.
I think that the fundamental question which your Lordships' House will expect me to answer can be briefly put in this way. The output of the gas industry has been approximately static over the last few years, and it might therefore be supposed that the normal depreciation revenues of the industry should be sufficient to sustain the present and expected level of production. Why therefore must Parliament be asked to approve more borrowings?
To answer this question I think that we must consider what I might call the

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strategic position of the gas industry in our fuel economy. It occupies a key position, but the industry has to meet severe and very vigorous competition, notably from the oil and electricity industries. Not only have the Gas Boards at least two adversaries, but they must also fight on two fronts, because at present and for a long time to come the industry will need to produce two fuels—gas and coke—as the production of coke and other solid smokeless fuels is likely to be a very important part of the business of Area Gas Boards for a period which will stretch far beyond the time covered by this Bill.
We have, I submit, an important national asset in the existing underground distribution system which carries gas to premises of all types in all areas of the country, except in purely rural or semi-rural districts. It is perhaps not generally appreciated that about 12 million households in this country use gas. It is not too much to say that coke and other carbonised fuels produced by Area Gas Boards are vital to our progress towards clean air, which is so important. Coke has been criticised as to its suitability for this purpose and I would not claim that in the past progress in coke preparation and marketing has always been as good as it should have been.
Your Lordships may remember that between the wars some of the most progressive gas undertakings paid a lot of attention to coke preparation and marketing and greatly enlarged their coke revenues by so doing. After the war, for a number of years, the general shortage of fuel made it possible for coke to be readily sold in spite of inconsistencies in quality. More recently, I am glad to say, there has been a return to competitive selling and a British Standard Specification for open fire coke has now been introduced. In addition, with considerable enterprise, some Area Boards have produced highly reactive cokes which have secured a very ready sale at prices which appear likely to offer an economic return.
Although there are substantial quantities of excellent solid smokeless fuel now also being produced by both the National Coal Board and private enterprise concerns, I must emphasise that the wide creation of smokeless zones cannot succeed unless coke is acceptable to householders
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who wish to retain the comfort of the open fire at a cost comparable to that to which they have been accustomed when burning coal. There is now ample evidence that when good quality coke is supplied and burnt in a suitable appliance, these conditions can be met.
Apart, however, from its importance to the very large body of gas and coke consumers, the industry is a large consumer of coal: it is second only to the electricity industry. In this respect the Area Gas Boards have also the responsibility of securing markets for the substantial volumes of gas which are produced at coke ovens associated with the steel industry. The carbonisation of coal by conventional methods produces coke as well as gas, and a number of Boards have already found that the disposal of coke sets a limit to the amount of coal which they can use for gas making by the carbonisation process. It is against this background that the introduction of two large plants using the Lurgi process of total gasification of coal is especially significant.
The Lurgi plants will produce no coke, and they will have the additional advantage of being able to use a wider range of coal than that required for carbonisation. These plants, therefore, represent an important milestone to the industry, but it should be recognised that the Lurgi process is not, and cannot be, a universal solution to making town gas economically from coal. To produce gas at a competitive price these plants must be large and situated close to abundant supplies of suitable coal. Capital cost is relatively high, and the plants must be operated at a high load factor. Thus the construction of Lurgi plants on or adjacent to coal measures will depend not only on the economics of each project but particularly on the extent to which markets for base load gas can be secured within the area served by the plant. In some territories the existing base load is entirely, or almost entirely, covered by supplies of gas from coke ovens.
It is quite possible that in the course of time we shall see something in the nature of a national grid, associated with large scale underground storage. This, however, is for the future. In the short term, and as a first step towards a national grid, there will be opportunities of transferring gas from one Board to

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another, to their mutual advantage. In mentioning the important Lurgi developments I should not like to give your Lordships the impression that all hopes of gasifying coal by new methods rest in that process. The Gas Council are pursuing important experiments aimed ultimately at the hydrogenation of coal. There are important possibilities here, but a great deal of work remains to be done, and it is necessary first to develop the process first on an oil-feed stock before attempting in the final stage to hydrogenate coal.
Some natural concern was expressed during the debate in another place about the increased use of petroleum in its various forms for making town gas, and it has been assumed, rather prematurely, that such use is invariably at the expense of coal. This is not so. The production of gas to meet the heavy seasonal peak demand has for many years been assisted by the use of oil in the carburetted water gas process. Such plant can be brought into use and shut down very much more quickly than carbonising plant, and, indeed, the erection of carbonising plant to meet these comparatively short-duration loads would be entirely uneconomic. Most of the newer plants now being used for the catalytic gasification of oil are meeting these peak loads and are producing gas at a lower cost than could be secured by the older carburetted water gas process. At the same time, the use of oil refinery gases transmitted by pipe line from refineries to gas works and then reformed into town gas has provided several Boards with useful quantities of gas at low cost. These developments have undoubtedly helped the Gas Boards to restrain the cost of production and the reduction in coal usage which they have caused has been relatively slight.
Now, however, it is alleged that a much more serious threat to the coal interests arises with imported methane. I should like to put this matter into true perspective. First of all the experimental quantities so far imported by the small experimental ship, the "Methane Pioneer", are almost negligible, even compared with the total volume of gas sold by the North Thames Board, which is the only Board to have used this material so far. These have been experimental cargoes, and no proposals have yet been made to the Government for
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large-scale imports. It has been wrongly assumed that methane imports, if authorised, would be entirely at the expense of coal now being used for gas making. It is likely that if methane proves to be attractive it may also be a substitute for oil gas or an ideal enriching agent for lean coal gas. It may also help to retain markets for gas in areas remote from the coal fields which would otherwise be lost to the gas industry and thus to the coal industry. Cheap therms obtained from methane may enable Gas Boards to enlarge the market for gas and thus retain substantially unimpaired the outlet for gas produced by carbonising plants. I would suggest to your Lordships that until proposals are made for commercial imports, we should keep an open mind on the possible advantages and disadvantages which they might bring.
It has already been stated, and I am glad to have the opportunity of stating it again, that in taking account of any proposals which may be put to them the Government will take full account of the national interest in the broadest sense, including the interests of the coal industry. It is also, I think, worth pointing out that if, as seems possible, natural gas ultimately becomes an important commodity in international trade, then there may be strong arguments of broad economic interest for this country to have some share in it.
Last year, for the first time since nationalisation, the gas industry was in revenue deficit, and it may be asked what are the prospects of the industry successfully performing in the years ahead its important rôle in our fuel economy. Although gas has been used in this country since the beginning of the nineteenth century, it is still for many purposes the most suitable fuel available. Its inherent advantages must, in the present competitive state of the fuel market be buttressed by the production and distribution of a good and clean gas at competitive prices. At the same time, the improvement in coke production and marketing must continue to take advantage of the very important opportunity which the clean-air policy offers to the gas industry.
In industry, increasing quantities of town gas have been used since the war, and the present large consumption is

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expected to go on increasing continuously during the period covered by this Bill. In the domestic sector the position is more difficult, largely because gas has to compete against electricity. A great effort is being made to secure for gas certain domestic loads, such as space heating, for which it is a particularly attractive fuel, and I believe that these new loads can be won while the requirement for cooking purposes, which has provided the industry with its bread and butter for so many years, can be retained. The gas industry has no guaranteed customers. This expresses the difficulty of the task before the industry and the stimulus under which it works. The Boards will require to sustain a virile competition, virile competitive effort right through the period covered by this Bill, and the increase in authorised capital which this Bill represents should provide them with the tools to support this effort.
This, then, my Lords, in short, is the answer to the question which I posed at the beginning of my speech: that the higher limits which we are now asked to sanction will provide for the completion of the modernisation of the industry and for the inception of new developments, some of which I have very briefly indicated. The industry has been consistently modernising its efforts, reducing the number of gasworks, erecting better and modern gasworks, and giving a better service to the community. Your Lordships will be aware that the actual disbursements will, of course, be subject to the annual scrutiny which takes place on the capital development programmes of the Boards, and it is estimated that the initial limit of £500 million will be reached in about three years' time. There will thus be an opportunity for further reference to Parliament after a comparatively short period. I invite your Lordships' House to accept the need for this increase in the borrowing limits of the Gas Council and thus to signify your support of the efforts of this industry to make a worthy contribution to our fuel economy. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Mills.)
3.54 p.m.
LORD DALTON: My Lords, in approaching this Bill, the Second Reading of which has been moved in such an
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interesting speech by the noble Lord, Lord Mills—such an interesting and such a technically informative and, on the whole, such a hopeful speech—we are confronting an interesting situation. I am tempted to say that this is, in the strict sense of the term, a Socialist measure, for the operative clause, Clause 1 of the Bill, proposes to facilitate the financing of a large and rapid expansion in a nationalised service—namely, the gas industry. But it is interesting to observe, looking back upon the debates of yesteryear, that atlhough there was much discussion when this industry was first brought within the public sector in (I think it was) 1948, since that time the industry has upon the whole been so successfully and efficiently conducted that there is to-day no serious demand for its denationalisation, even among the most devoted and dedicated doctrinaire supporters of anti-Socialist dogma in the Conservative Party. For this increasing agreement on what is desirable in the national interest we must surely all congratulate ourselves.
The Minister of Power in a speech in another place, and again the noble Lord, Lord Mills, here to-day, have, in terms of much interest to those of us who follow these matters and to the general public, praised on the whole, in very handsome terms, the performance of this publicly-owned industry. Great technical advances have evidently already been made since vesting day. The technicalities are such that not many—certainly not I and perhaps not many other Members in your Lordships' House—can discuss them in the way of pronouncing judicial assessments of just how much has been done. But I read with great interest what the Minister of Power said in another place and I have followed what the noble Lord has said to-day, and it certainly seems that not only have technical advances been achieved in the recent past but many others are, as it were, within the zone of possibility of achievement in the coming years that will be covered by these financial provisions.
It is interesting to recall that in 9 of the 10 financial years that have elapsed since vesting day this industry has made a profit or, if you prefer, a surplus, and in only one of these has it incurred a deficit. I was very interested to read

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that in the plans for the near future two-thirds of the finance required is to be furnished by the industry itself from its own internal resources, and only one-third of the sums required will need to be borrowed. That, I think, is a considerable achievement in the virtue of self-finance and is much to be welcomed. I think we may also say that the labour relations in this industry are, and have steadily been, excellent and that no friction has arisen through industrial disputes or difficulties in that field. We were also glad to hear—the noble Lord, Lord Mills, has repeated it to-day and the Minister of Power initially stated it in his speech in another place—that there are to be regular consultations between the chairman of the National Coal Board and the chairman of the Gas Council and other members, no doubt, of the National Coal Board and the Gas Authority, particularly when some new process is under consideration which might have adverse reactions in particular upon the coal industry, the representatives of which are naturally still sensitive in the light of past experience and eager to be assured that the legitimate interests of the coal industry are taken into account in any substantial new departures. I am sure we are all pleased to hear that.
I was rather surprised to notice that nothing was said in another place by any speaker in any section of the House about the price of gas; that was left unmentioned. I suppose it seems obvious, and no doubt it is borne out by statistics, that the prominent factor in the price of gas must be the price of coal. But I remember that in ancient days, before the nationalisation of the industry, we used to hear about the so-called "gasworks clause". If I recall correctly, what this provided was that if a privately-owned gas company desired to increase its dividends to its shareholders, this was permissible only if there was a corresponding reduction in the price of gas to the consumer—and the old Gas, Light & Coke Company, and others, worked on that basis for many years.
I should like to know what is happening now in this field of the price determination of gas. The pattern has changed. There are now no longer private gas companies, nor private shareholders, and, as I understand the
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matter, the effective accounting units are the Area Boards, each independent within its own field, which contribute towards the financial net surplus or deficit, as the case may be, on the working of the gas industry under its present constitution. But it would be interesting to hear something—and perhaps the noble Lord could say a word about it later on—as to the trend of gas prices in recent years, and also whether any hope can be held out that, with these various new inventions and technical developments on which he has discoursed with such ease and such knowledge, there will be any effect in the direction of enabling the gas consumer to participate in the technical progress of the industry through lower prices.
However this may be, I am sure that your Lordships' House will not desire to resist the passage of this Bill into law. I think we shall all judge it to be necessary and wisely conceived; and I believe that my noble friends on these Benches can sincerely welcome it as a constructive Socialist measure of which, both in principle and in practical detail, we wholly approve.
4.3 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I am not going to make a speech but only a few remarks prompted by my interest in this particular subject, by the speech of my noble friend who proposed the Bill and by the last accounts of the Gas Council. Gas is a very interesting commodity in that it is the method of piping coal into the home; and I understand that, through the bringing into force of new tariffs, gas is going to make a special effort to try to capture some of the space-heating and water-heating markets which it has never really had. So that, as gas is also the producer of coke, which is one of the three competitors for this market—the third being oil—the Gas Council must be in a very considerable dilemma as to which horse to back on which course: because, clearly, if they cheapen their gas and make their coke dearer, they are going to lose markets wherever there is not a gas main; and if the reverse holds true they will never be able to break into this particular market with gas.
At this stage I should say that I cannot understand how the present price of coke can be justified. It is at least

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five times the pre-war price; and, from the table in paragraph 463 of the last Annual Report, we see that, whereas sales of gas produced 66 per cent. more cash over the last ten-year period, coke receipts have gone up 80 per cent. I should not have thought that that was a justifiable burden on the coke consumer as against the gas consumer. But that does not help resolve that extremely difficult dilemma of what is the right tactical and strategical policy between gas and coke prices to gain this particular market in space-heating and water-heating.
Another interesting point that arises out of these accounts is the steady shrinkage in domestic consumers, the increase in industrial consumers, and the overall, slight increase in gas consumers. From that one would seriously wonder whether it pays to connect the vast majority of domestic consumers to a gas supply at all—consumers who possibly use it for cooking only, or for a gas fire, and who use other fuel for all other purposes. Now when we get two nationalised bodies, backed by the State with, I was going to say, unlimited capital behind them—that would not be correct, but, at any rate, it is easier for them to get capital from the State than it is on the private market—there is a temptation, I believe, for gas and electricity to indulge in uneconomic competition with each other. The noble Lords opposite tend to be very much against all competition: noble Lords on this side of the House tend to be the opposite. I suggest that often the golden mean may be correct, and that it may be uneconomic for gas and electricity both to go into the same housing estate where, from the facts and figures I have given, it would look as if the domestic load is not one which is particularly paying to gas.
My noble friend, in moving the Bill, gave a hint that he knew of coke of such quality that, when burnt in certain appliances, it would give the same effect as a coal fire. My Lords, I have seen these things in the Ideal Homes Exhibition for years, but never outside the Ideal Homes Exhibition; and I should very much like to have details of such a fuel and of such an appliance which burns steadily without going out, does not give anybody in the room a headache, and does not smell. My
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Lords, the gas industry is one of enormous interest for the future, because from it come so many raw materials, other than gas, which are so urgently required in the chemical industry.
4.9 p.m.
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, before the noble Lord deals with the matters raised by my noble friend Lord Dalton, may I put forward a personal point of view? I speak as a small, domestic consumer of coke, and I am at the moment a little perturbed, for this reason. In anticipation of the area in which I live shortly becoming a smokeless zone, I have had installed one of these coke-burning stoves, and I am feeling that perhaps I have been a little deceived, partly as a result of the competitive advertising which appeared in the Press. There were illustrated certain coke-consuming appliances, and one in particular showed an artist's sketch of an open, coke-consuming fire or it may be solid fuel consuming fire, in which no bars were shown, and the picture was, as an artistic production, quite attractive. In actual practice what I find is this. First, there are several kinds of coke and smokeless fuel, none of which appears to have been either strongly recommended or even in ready demand; all of it appears to take up a considerable amount of space and to attract high contents of moisture, which not only makes it difficult to store but adds considerably to the cost. Then there is a third fault which has been brought to my notice—namely, that if the flue or chimney or whatever it is called does not work properly there is a danger of carbon monoxide coming into the room.
On the whole, one is given the feeling that this attractively advertised but dangerous piece of domestic furniture needs very careful handling. I wonder whether the noble Lord can give me, as a domestic consumer, some indication of what advantages there are; what prospects there are of coke being sold at a reasonable price; whether the coke is available, and, if so, which kind of coke he is prepared to recommend and when it may be available. These are thoughts that passed through my mind as I listened to the noble Lord's speech, and since I am only one of a considerably growing number of house occupiers in the country it may be of interest to

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others, too, to know what the Government's point of view is on this matter.
4.12 p.m.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: My Lords, I should like to support the point which my noble friend Lord Greenhill has made with regard to coke. The Minister has said that it is desirable to increase the production of coke in order to carry out the policy of the Clean Air Act; and no doubt it is. But I think that should be qualified by saying that it produces cleaner air, not clean air: it may be smokeless, but the fumes of the coke still go into the atmosphere and tend to settle at ground level. So it does not produce an entirely innocuous air but only one which is freer from smoke. It is well known, too, that coke which is sold to the consumer frequently contains a large amount of water—I am told that in some cases it may be as much as 30 per cent. or 40 per cent. of the weight—and the consumer has to pay for that as if it were fuel. That is entirely wrong and something ought to be done to put a stop to it. Other fuels are not subject to a disability of that kind, and if it is desired to encourage the consumption of coke, steps ought to be taken to see that it is of a uniform quality, and that it is free from moisture so that the consumer gets every time what he is paying for.
4.14 p.m.
LORD MILLS: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Dalton, for his helpful speech in relation to this industry and this Bill. He described it as a Socialist measure. Well, I do not want to deprive the noble Lord of the satisfaction he derives from that, but I look upon it as a national measure, because this industry, which is now a unified industry, is doing a great national work. It is true that it has generally made a profit, or a surplus, whichever the noble Lord prefers. I think that it just shows how wrong was the remark made yesterday, that we should seek to denationalise a prosperous industry. Here is a prosperous industry, and there is no proposal to denationalise it. It has made great technical advances; in fact, it had to make great technical advances to survive.
I referred in my opening to the inherent quality of gas. It is true that a great number of our fellow countrymen, or perhaps, even more so, fellow
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countrywomen, prefer gas for domestic use and in industry, too, it has a considerable place. I would stress the importance, not of telling people what they must have but of trying to meet their wishes in this matter. Reference was made by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, to the fact that it does not pay to connect the great majority of consumers. I do not think that is quite right. It may be thought to be a pity that electricity and gas should be used in the one house, but I think it is only natural that it should be. If people prefer gas for one purpose and electricity for another, why should they not have it? After all, as I pointed out, there are 12 million people who use gas in their homes, and that is a consideration to which I think we must have regard.
LORD HAWKE: If I may interrupt the noble Lord, I think he slightly misinterpreted what I said. What I intended to ask was: does it pay to connect all the small domestic consumers? It would be entirely wrong to use the taxpayer's capital in order to subsidise those consumers, which would be the effect if it does not pay to connect them.
LORD MILLS: I think the short answer to that point is that it has hitherto paid, and the steps which the gas industry are taking to keep down the price of gas can be carried out only provided they have a sufficient number of customers. I think it is undoubted that large numbers of people do prefer gas for certain purposes, just as they prefer electricity for other purposes.
I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Dalton, referred to the question of labour relations in this industry. They have been excellent, due to the wisdom on the part of the trade union leaders and of the gas industry leaders. I hope, in spite of what we read, that that condition will continue, because without harmony in industry we cannot get success in industry. The noble Lord also referred to the value of consultation, and I am glad, as I know my right honourable friend the Minister of Power is, that there is the opportunity and the desire for consultation. Before any steps are taken which might affect one industry as against the other, the Ministry of Power arranges for consultation on such matters. The noble Lord also referred to the price of gas and said,

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quite rightly, that in large measure it is related to the price of coal. That is something the gas industry have had to contend with, and it has been the spur for many of the new arrangements they have brought in to cheapen the price of gas.
This question of prices and tariffs is a very important one. I think it must be obvious that the first duty of the Gas Boards, and of the Gas Council who look at their tariffs—which is a good thing, too—must be to see that the industry does not become a burden on the State. Therefore they have so to arrange their tariffs that they can sell the maximum volume of gas and coke and remain competitive, and I think the gas industry has done a good job in this respect. It is true that it has been up against the mounting price of coal. That has enabled conditions in the mines to be better, but it has also affected the gas industry. What the gas industry itself has done in order to overcome these handicaps, I am sure reflects great credit on it. It has got rid of, or is getting rid of, large numbers of old gas works and putting in modern plants and modern distribution throughout. I am glad to be in a position to say that.
The noble Lord, Lord Hawke, referred to the question of space heating and water heating, and then went on to talk about the relation of the price of gas with the price of coke. They are very important matters, and I am glad the noble Lord drew attention to them. But they are a matter for the commercial judgment of the industry itself, and that is why it is always so important that whatever Government is in power will see that the management of those industries is first-class and qualified to exercise the best commercial judgment; because such matters require a very keen judgment, a very nice balance, of whether a little more should be charged for gas and a little less for coke, and vice versa.
LORD GREENHILL: What about the consumer interest?
LORD MILLS: My Lords, the consumer is taken care of, because any pro-
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posals for alterations of prices go to the consultative councils, who represent the consumer. I can assure your Lordships, from my own knowledge of this industry, that the question of the consumer is never away from the minds of the management of the Gas Boards. After all, they have to live on the consumer, and unless they satisfy the consumer they will not succeed.
I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, interjected that remark, because it brings me to his own individual complaint. I think it would be doing a great service if he would write to the Gas Council (or I should be happy to see that any letter is forwarded to the right quarter) because so much has been done to improve conditions. I informed your Lordships that there was now a British Standards specification for coke, and that is the coke which it is sought to supply to these smokeless zones. Perhaps I could refer to what the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, had to say about pure air. I am sure he would admit that in a smokeless zone the position is very much better than in a comparative zone which is not smokeless. Efforts are constantly being directed to supplying the best fuel, and coke sold under these standard conditions is a very desirable fuel, and I am sure the industry will go on improving it. I should not like to pretend that the creation of smokeless zones can go forward at the pace we should like unless coke is there to its aid. But I hope that conditions are not so bad as the noble Lord apparently has experienced, because coke is sold under standard conditions which I laid down under a standard specification.
My Lords, I hope that I have dealt fully with the points that have been made. I should again like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Dalton, for what I am sure the gas industry would consider an encouraging contribution on his part. He referred to the amount of self-finance by the gas industry. This Bill asks for an increase in the authorised amount, and I hope that your Lordships will give it your blessing and pass it.
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

LEGAL AID BILL
4.28 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, in rising to move the Second Reading of this Bill, I fear that I shall inevitably detain your Lordships for some little time. I am, as Lord Chancellor, responsible to Parliament for the Legal Aid and Advice Act, 1949, which this Bill proposes to amend, and which, with the equivalent Act for Scotland, is the understructure for the whole of our provisions for ensuring that justice is obtainable by the less well-off members of our community, and that access to the courts is open to all. Your Lordships will forgive me for observing that this is a matter with which I am deeply and seriously concerned.
The object of this Bill is to put the Legal Aid Scheme, again broadly speaking, into the shape envisaged by its sponsors, a Committee under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Rushcliffe, whose wise counsels so many of us remember both here and in another place. That Committee reported in 1945. They devised a comprehensive scheme for legal aid which was adopted almost completely by the Government and which took shape in 1949 in the Legal Aid and Advice Act and the Legal Aid (Scotland) Act. Unfortunately before the Acts were in operation economic circumstances compelled a limitation in adoption to only those parts of it which were related to legal aid in the Supreme Court in England and in the Court of Sessions and Sheriff's Court in Scotland, and those alone were put into immediate operation.
Without criticising that decision in any way, it is true to say that it has bedevilled planning ever since. On the one hand, as part and parcel of the financial climate, the cost of living rose, nullifying to a large extent the objects of the Act. On the other hand, important parts of it had never come into play at all. Whenever money was available the difficult choice has faced the Government, whether to restore to those parts of the Act already in force the financial conditions enjoyed when the Act was passed, or whether to extend the Act to those parts which had so far benefited nobody. Gradually, we have
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been able to extend the Act almost, though not entirely, to the whole scheme envisaged by the Rushcliffe Committee and by Parliament. It is now the Government's intention to restore the financial provisions of the Act to their original scope.
Before dealing in detail with the objects of the Bill, I should perhaps explain the Legal Aid and Advice Schemes, what they are and how they work. It will be remembered that the Legal Aid Schemes are contributory, and contributory in more than one sense. There is the contribution which the State makes to the Legal Aid Fund; secondly, there are the contributions which the assisted litigants themselves make towards the total costs of their cases, with the exception of those litigants who are of really modest means; and thirdly there are the contributions which the lawyers also make, for under the Schemes they forgo a certain percentage of the costs which would normally be payable in respect of their services. Legal aid will now be provided in proceedings in most cases. I do not think I need enumerate them all to your Lordships.
Last year the Secretary of State for Scotland and I were able to bring into force Section 7 of the Act to provide for oral advice for poor people from solicitors in ordinary practice. This year we have been able to bring into force Section 5 of the Act which enables the poor to get the full services of a solicitor in writing letters, collecting evidence and the like in matters which might eventually lead to litigation but which have not as yet reached that stage. Your Lordships may regard these two most recent extensions of the Act as most important because it is only by explaining to a layman what his legal rights are, and, more often, what they are not, and, when necessary, writing letters on the matter on his behalf, that litigation can be prevented and difficulties removed without all the waste of time, money and emotions that legal actions cause.
These three schemes of oral advice, of legal aid in matters not involving litigation and legal aid in litigation, are administered by the English and Scottish Law Societies in consultation with the General Council of the Bar and the Faculty of Advocates respectively. I

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hope you will allow me to say, although I am head of the legal profession, that the country owes the lawyers a very considerable debt for their administration of these schemes. It is an immense undertaking, and thousands of barristers and solicitors are involved in it in one way or another. They grant legal aid, control legally-aided cases, manage the Advice Scheme and collect moneys due to the Legal Aid Fund. Over 20,000 cases are granted legal aid each year and over 80,000 live cases are on the books. The annual turnover is over £5,000,000 a year, of which less than half comes out of public funds. We are particularly indebted to the Law Societies for their efficient handling of this great Scheme. The one matter which the lawyers do not deal with themselves is the investigation of the resources of applicants for legal aid in litigious matters. That is done by the National Assistance Board.
The whole Scheme in England is subject to annual review by my Advisory Committee. This Committee is not composed of practising lawyers but represents the lay interest in the Legal Aid Scheme. The noble Lord, Lord Citrine, ought to approve of that, in view of the very admirable speech he made on a legal Bill the other day. The Reports of this Committee, first under the chairmanship of Sir George Aylwen, and latterly under the chairmanship of the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, who unfortunately is unable to be in his place to-day, have been of inestimable value to myself and my predecessors. They have map read our course and have ensured that the public got value for its money, whether spent in contributions or spent in taxes. I am most grateful to the noble Viscount and the other members of his Committee for the interest they have taken in these matters and for the keen sense of responsibility with which they have watched over the fortunes of the Scheme.
In January, 1959, I requested them to consider the financial provisions of the Legal Aid and Advice Act and of the Legal Aid (Assessment of Resources) Regulations, the two instruments which define financial eligibility for legal aid and the financial terms upon which it will be offered. The Committee reported in June and their Report was presented to Parliament last December. Let me first explain how the financial
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provisions of the Act and the Regulations interlock. Although the Advisory Committee's task related only to England and Wales, their views bore, of course, equal relevance to Scotland, and the Bill relates to both countries. Both sets of Acts and Regulations are the same, so that in speaking of one I am speaking for both.
The Act provides financial limits below which legal aid is available, either free or on payment of a contribution. Those limits are described by references to what is called "disposable" income and "disposable" capital. Disposable income and disposable capital is income and capital after making certain deductions and allowances, and those deductions and allowances are prescribed in the Assessment of Resources Regulations. With reference to those Regulations, the Committee recommended changes with regard to both income and capital. Their first recommendation related to rent. Under the recommendations of the Rushcliffe Committee fifteen years ago, a legally-aided person received no rent allowance for the first 15s. a week of his rent. The Committee recommended that in future the full rent should be allowed. That recommendation was adopted last September, increasing the allowances of nearly all assisted persons by 15s. a week.
The allowance for children has always been the same as the allowance made under the National Assistance (Determination of Need) Regulations. They have therefore increased as and when the Determination of Need Regulations have been altered. The allowance for a spouse or an adult dependant is fixed in the Legal Aid Regulations. The Committee's second recommendation was that the allowance for a spouse shall equal the National Assistance allowance. I hope my noble and learned friend Lord Conesford does not share the disapproval of Mr. King in Stalky and Co. in regard to the use of the word "spouse", otherwise one has to use the words "husband" and "wife" each time. If he does, I apologise, because I shall continue to use the word "spouse". The immediate effect of this recommendation was to increase the allowances by a further 15s. a week in respect of married applicants. That recommendation was also carried out in amendments made to the Regulations last September.

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With regard to capital, there is now an allowance of £75 where an assisted person is married or has other dependants. There is no increase in the allowance, however many dependants (children, for example) he may have. The Advisory Committee recommended that in future there should be an allowance of £75 in respect of the first dependant, £50 in respect of a second and £25 for any other dependant. I propose to implement that recommendation as soon as this Bill passes.
I now come to compare three things: the financial provisions of the Act, the Advisory Committee's recommendations about them and the proposals in this Bill. Section 2 (1) of the Act provides that legal aid shall be available where disposable income is £420 a year or less. The Advisory Committee pointed out that the cost of living has increased by over 75 per cent. since the Rushcliffe Committee reported, and recommended increasing the figure of £420 to £750. This increase, of just over 78 per cent., would therefore restore the limit in real terms to that recommended by the Rushcliffe Committee. They pointed out, moreover, by reference to the Blue Book on Income and Expenditure, that this would make legal aid available, broadly speaking, to the same number of incomes as had been eligible in 1949 when the Legal Aid and Advice Acts were passed.
These were cogent reasons for accepting their figure. But the effect of their recommendation can really be studied only by seeing what the result of the recommendation would be after taking into account all the allowances made under the Assessment of Resources Regulations. I have already described the allowances for rent and for wives and children. Allowances are also made for income tax and rates, expenditure on house repairs, expenses incurred in travelling to employment, trade union subscriptions, superannuation payments, National Insurance contributions, any other insurances or reasonable hire purchase commitments, and, to use the words of the Act, other matters for which a person must or reasonably may provide. When these are taken into account, the effect of the Committee's proposals would be that legal aid would be available for a single person with an income of considerably over £1,250 a year and
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to a married person with children with an income of considerably over £1,500 a year.
The Government feel that gross limits of about those amounts fully protect those of small or moderate means who, under the Long Title to the Act, are to be catered for. People with incomes of above the figures I have just mentioned have resources—ipossibly their own houses and facilities generally—which enable them to raise cash to meet the demands of litigation. We have therefore come to the conclusion that an upper disposable limit of £700 a year and not £750 is about right for this purpose. That will enable people with between £1,250 a year, and £1,500 a year, depending upon whether they are single or married or the number of children they may have, to get legal aid. This is an increase of over 66 per cent. above the present figure which was approved by Parliament in 1949, and the cost of living has increased by only 52 per cent. since then. The latest Blue Book on National Income and Expenditure, which was not available to the Advisory Committee, shows eligibility for legal aid will still be greater than it was in 1949. Clause 1, subsection (1), of the Bill therefore seeks to amend Section 2 (1) of the Act by altering the figure of £420 disposable income to £700 disposable income.
I now turn to the upper capital limit. Under the proviso to that section of the Act, a person may be refused legal aid if, (1) he has disposable capital of more than £500, and (2), it appears that he can afford to proceed without legal aid. The Advisory Committee recommend no change in that provision and none appears in the Bill. In another place this recommendation came in for some criticism and I therefore asked the Advisory Committee to look at it again. They issued a report last February saying that on reconsideration they were still of the same opinion as they had been last June. It must be remembered that this is a purely discretionary provision. Legal aid can be refused under it only if it appears to those granting legal aid that there are sufficient resources available to the applicant to meet the costs of his contemplated litigation. The test is expanded in the Regulations. Under paragraph 8 of Regulation 5 of the Legal Aid (General) Regulations, 1960, the

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Committees are to refuse an application only if they think the maximum contribution which the assisted person will pay, if he gets legal aid, will meet the litigious costs in full. The Act requires a contribution of all the disposable capital less £75, and by a further provision in the Bill that £75 is to be increased to £125. Refusals of legal aid under the discretionary power can therefore occur only when there is a contribution of more than £375 out of capital, that is, £500 less £125, irrespective of any contribution which may be required from income.
My Lords, it is useless to offer legal aid, for example, in a county court proceeding, where the full costs are likely to be £50 or so, and to tell the grateful recipient that the maximum contribution he may have to pay to the Legal Aid Fund is going to be £375. He would really get no benefit from legal aid in those circumstances, for although the Act makes special provision in cases of assisted persons losing their action they could hardly come into play when the total cost was £50 and it was known that he might have been found capable of contributing over seven times that amount to the Legal Aid Fund. Similarly there is really no justification in giving a person legal aid for a maximum contribution of at least £375 when he wishes, say, to take divorce proceedings which are certain to be undefended. The costs in that case would probably be less than £100, and the only benefit he would then get would be at the expense of his lawyers, because in cases of that kind the lawyers forgo a percentage of their taxed costs. One asks, why should the lawyers make this sacrifice when the man is fully able to pay?
I have now dealt with the financial limits above which a person may be refused legal aid. Section 3 of the Act defines the financial limits below which a person will get that legal aid for nothing. The present income limit is a disposable income of £156 a year. The Advisory Committee recommend that that should be increased to a disposable income of £275 a year, an increase of about 76 per cent., thus putting the clock back, in real terms, to the time of the Rushcliffe Report. In addition to that argument they expressed the view that a single man or woman with five guineas a week after payment of his
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rent has nothing to spare for contributing towards his legal costs. Again I would ask your Lordships to examine this proposition in the light of the allowances which are made. I have already described the kind of allowances they are. All that is left for someone to pay for from his disposable income is food, clothing and footwear, fuel, light and power and replacements of household goods. If your Lordships are following me, you will remember the list I gave of items which come into deduction before disposable income is arrived at.
The effect of adopting the Advisory Committee's proposals, after deducting the allowances, would have been to allow a single person earning something over £10 per week to get legal aid for nothing. In the opinion of Her Majesty's Government £10 a week is about the limit at which free legal aid should be granted, and we therefore propose in Clause 1 (2) of the Bill a free income limit of £250—not the £275 recommended by the Committee. The effect of that is that a single person will have over £4 16s. a week for his ordinary living expenses—that is, for the items I have just mentioned—apart from those items for which special allowances are made: those in the list that I gave your Lordships earlier. It is an increase of 60 per cent. on the existing limit—8 per cent. more than the cost of living has increased since 1949.
The free income limit has another effect, because it is those with incomes above that figure who pay a contribution towards the costs of their cases. The Act provides that the contribution shall be one half of the excess over the free income limit. The Advisory Committee have recommended that the proportion should in future be one-third of the excess, and that recommendation has been adopted and also appears in Clause 1 (2) of the Bill. This is a most important provision. It is a great advance on the original Rushcliffe Scheme and I am delighted that we are now in a position to relax the rate of contribution in this way.
That completes the picture so far as income is concerned. This may be, therefore, a convenient moment to look at the effects. Taking actual cases which have been before the National Assistance Board, and adjusting them to meet the new circumstances, we get these results. First, a single person with no dependants

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who has a gross income of £520 a year (or £10 a week), paid a contribution of £64 before September, 1959. After the Assessment of Resources Regulations relating to income were amended last September, he would have contributed £44 10s. Under the proposals in the Bill he will pay no contribution at all.
Take a case which is very common in the Legal Aid Scheme—that of a separated wife, with two children, whose gross income is £750 a year and who has family allowances of £21. Before September, 1959, she would have paid £104 in contributions. At the present moment she would contribute £79 10s. 0d; and after the passage of the Bill she will contribute £21 10s. 0d. That is a very considerable advance. As my third case, I take a married couple, with three children, with an income of £1,000 a year and £47 derived from family allowances. Before September, 1959, they would have got no legal aid at all; neither would they get it at the present moment. But hereafter, after this Bill has become law, they will be eligible for legal aid at a contribution of £61 10s. 0d. Finally, those who just qualify for legal aid would pay a maximum contribution from income of £150.
I turn now to capital. As I have already explained, a contribution of all the disposable capital less £75 is required under Section 3 (1) of the Act. The Advisory Committee recommended increasing this free capital to £125, and that is provided by Clause 1 (2) (b). It will be appreciated that this relates to disposable capital, and, just as allowances are made from income, so allowances are made from capital to form the disposable capital. I have already referred to allowances for dependants and what I propose to do about them. In addition, certain types of capital assets are especially protected. The owner-occupied house is valued only at one-half of its value free from encumbrances above £2,000; and because house values have increased in the past years I am proposing to raise the £2,000 to £3,000.
Secondly, the contents of a house, save in exceptional circumstances, and articles of personal clothing and tools and equipment of trade, are ignored. The older of us have to stop and think what that means. To-day there are some 10
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million television sets, so that in two houses of three the contents to which I have referred would include a television set; and where the applicant uses his car for his business—for example, a commercial traveller—the car would also be included. Finally, the Board have a special discretion to adjust the allowances from capital in special circumstances. The most frequent circumstance is that of a person who is using capital to eke out a small income. Adjustments are made for that reason and, because the general financial provisions will now be more generous, the Board will be able to act with increased generosity in those circumstances. It has always been thought right to differentiate between the ways capital and income were treated under the scheme. As we all know, the tendency nowadays is to live up to one's income, and it is impossible to expect a litigant with a fairly modest income to alter his whole way of life so as to provide for all his costs out of his income. But capital, as the Rushcliffe Committee pointed out, as Parliament agreed in 1949, and as the Advisory Committee agreed last year, can and should be used for the emergencies of litigation.
My Lords, the Advisory Committee wisely recommended that the new limits should be capable of more rapid adjustments than they have been in the past. Subsection (3), read with the preceding subsections of Clause 1 of the Bill, accordingly provides that the limits can be increased (but not decreased) by Regulations, subject to the Affirmative Resolution procedure. This has always been a feature of National Assistance, and the effect may be seen from the fact that, while the legal aid rates have remained unchanged since 1949, the National Assistance rates have been increased under this procedure seven times since 1948.
Subsection (4) of Clause 1 makes transitional provisions to enable those whose incomes have been determined for the period in which the financial limits are changed to get proportionate benefit from them. Clause 2 gives power to reduce the lawyers' contribution to the Legal Aid Scheme. At present, following the recommendations of the Rushcliffe Committee, barristers and solicitors acting for legally aided people get 85 per cent. of their taxed costs in

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proceedings in the superior courts. It is right that I should point out—and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, will make this point clear—that that is taxed costs, the whole costs, and not profit costs, so the deduction is made from their total costs.
The Advisory Committee recommended that that 15 per cent. should be reduced to 10 per cent. But in England, at any rate, legal costs are in a transitional stage. Only recently have the Supreme Court Rule Committee increased very considerably the amount of litigious costs in the High Court and Court of Appeal, and without expert advice it is hard to see exactly how solicitors and barristers will be placed, taking into account, on the one hand the large increases they may have to meet in their overhead expenses and, on the other hand, the greater benefits they will receive under the new Rules of Court. In these circumstances I have invited the Chairman of the Bar Council and the President of the Law Society to investigate the position of the two professions and to let me have a report. I understand that the report from the Law Society, which is perhaps the more complex, will reach me very soon, and it will, of course, receive early and careful consideration. I think that the Bar Council and the Law Society fully agree with me that it is right that the lawyers should carry on with the centuries-old tradition of not charging full fees to those of small or moderate means. On the other hand, it is only right and proper that they should be fairly remunerated for the work.
Clause 3 applies only to Scotland. Their Scheme requires applications to be made in considerable detail, and solicitors inevitably are put to expense in satisfying the Scottish conditions, and that is provided for. The English Scheme does not require this provision because solicitors do not have to do the same amount of work as their Scottish brethren in preparing applications for legal aid, and where the client cannot afford to pay them himself they are entitled to be remunerated under Section 7 of the Act, as helping to complete an application for legal aid comes within the definition of oral advice. Finally, Clause 4 of the Bill resolves a minor accounting difficulty.
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My Lords, I have detained you for a long time over a small Bill, but the background is complex and that has taken me some time to explain. But, in the result, taking into account the more liberal allowances and the reduction in the amount of contribution, I am sure that your Lordships on both sides of the House will welcome this Bill as remedying the ills which the rising cost of living has led to and in alleviating the conditions of litigants of small and moderate means. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
Moved, that the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
5.5 p.m.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: My Lords, the House is greatly indebted, I am sure we shall all agree, to the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack for the review he has given both of the contents of the Bill now before the House and of the history and attainments (if I may use the expression) of the Legal Aid Scheme. It was first brought into the law of the land by the Act of 1949, and was gradually extended by the various ways and in the various matters to which the noble and learned Viscount has made reference. I like to think of the Legal Aid Scheme as really implementing, if not wholly, at any rate to a large extent, the promise made by King John in Magna Charta: that justice should not be sold or denied or delayed to any man. I think that this Scheme, added to, as it has been, year by year, and now put on an even more favourable basis to applicants, goes a long way, though not the whole way, towards carrying out that very desirable end.
The Scheme also has in mind another general principle; that hardship should, wherever possible, be alleviated. Of course, that hardship may, in certain circumstances, be equally as great to a man or woman of quite considerable means, as to a man of very modest means. There was a case the other day—in fact there have been a number of cases lately—which took a considerable time, possibly a fortnight or three weeks. To a man with, if you like, £5,000 or £10,000 in capital, a case in the High Court, with leading counsel, might well use up the whole of his capital and cause him hardship equal to that caused to a man who had only

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£500 capital and was called upon to make a contribution of a large proportion of that sum in a case which he was bringing or defending. Therefore it may be that in the years to come we shall have to consider even greater increases in the limits of disposable income up to which relief or legal aid has to be given.
I recollect the introduction of this Scheme, in another place. It was introduced with a great deal of—shall I say?—timidity on the part of all concerned, because it was not at all clear how it would work out: whether there would be a great increase in litigation or whether it would be a flop; whether the various limits set were high enough or low enough. Gradually, however, it has become apparent that the scheme, even on its original basis, and still more so as it has developed, has in fact been a great success. If I may say so, I think that is due in very great part to the support and sympathetic attitude which has been taken by the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack and by his Department, and to the work of the Law Society. And, not least, it is due to the efforts of some 10,000 solicitors and barristers who have operated the Scheme at, as I think, a discount, if not, indeed, almost a cut price; because the proportion of 15 per cent., as the noble and learned Viscount has explained, is not 15 per cent. of profit costs, but 15 per cent. of the total taxed costs, and it takes no account of the costs which might be properly charged as between a solicitor and his own private client in an ordinary case. Therefore, the contribution made by lawyers in both branches of the profession is a very substantial one. My own view is that on the basis which has hitherto existed, many of these cases have been carried on by solicitors and barristers at a loss. I shall probably say a word or two about that later.
My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has told us how the Scheme was originally brought in, and how it then applied only to the High Court. Since then, it has been extended to the county courts; it has been extended to enable legal advice to be obtained under the Act—a very valuable extension—and I think I am right in saying that it has been, or is about to be, extended to magistrates' courts. Yet there are still other courts to which this Bill does not apply. One hopes that
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eventually the principles of the Legal Aid Scheme may be extended to litigation in the House of Lords; to proceedings before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council; perhaps to coroners' courts, where frequently poor people require help to represent their points of view; and, it may be, to various tribunals, and even, perhaps, to arbitrations. I think that in one form or another the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has power, subject to either Negative or Affirmative Resolutions, to make Regulations or in other ways to bring the various courts not at present within the purview of the Act within it; and to enable those who have business to do in those courts, and who are unable to bring their cases or applications without assistance, to do so.
My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount has explained that, in effect, there is a means test before one can obtain legal aid. He has explained that the disposable income limit up to which one can obtain that aid has hitherto been an income of £420 a year. That limit has now been raised—or will be raised when this Bill becomes an Act—to £700 a year. I think the noble and learned Viscount said that that was rather more than equivalent to the original £420. But it is curious that the Advisory Committee recommended the figure of £750, and that the Government have thought fit to cut this down to £700. The limit of £500 capital remains because, as I understand it, that is not, so to speak fixed: it is subject to discretion. In appropriate cases, where hardship would be caused to an individual having £500 worth of capital and who had to make an adequate contribution from that sum to the anticipated costs of litigation, there is a discretion to deal with the matter. In such a case the figure of £500 is not final. Then, again, the figure of income below which no contribution is required, in any circumstances, is increased by £250. Of course your Lordships will appreciate that these changes take account of the change in the value of money, and they extend the benefits of the Scheme to many who would not otherwise be able to have these advantages.
My Lords, I do not wish to be pernickety, but I think that, having regard to the great success of the Scheme and to the advantages it has conferred on

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many thousands of people, it is unfortunate that it was not carried further ere this. Even under the Bill before the House, the cost is estimated at little more than £2½ million a year—a comparatively small sum to confer this great benefit, year by year, on some 20,000 to 30,000 persons who would not otherwise be able to obtain the justice to which they think they are entitled. I think I am therefore justified in saying that it is unfortunate that the increases in this Bill have been delayed so long, though I admit that year by year the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has extended the Scheme so as to cover the different courts and the question of advice. To that extent, the matter has therefore been under review, and improvements have been made since 1949.
I should like to revert just for a moment to the question of the 15 per cent. discount which, under the Scheme as it is at present, solicitors and barristers have to allow from their taxed costs. Here I ought perhaps to declare an interest in that matter. But I should like to press it upon the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack that, apart from the query as to why this particular profession should be singled out to do "cut-price" work, it is common knowledge that in the legal profession, as in every other profession, costs have gone up enormously: rents are up, and clerks, assistant solicitors and secretaries are all difficult to obtain at prices which many solicitors can afford to pay. Indeed, I think there are instances where people apply under the Legal Aid Scheme for the help of solicitors who in fact are not earning as much as the applicants. That applies particularly, of course, to country practices, where solicitors have some distance to go to the local district registry, to the assizes, or whatever it may be. In my view, there is no justification for asking lawyers in either branch of the profession to work for less than the normal costs. In any event, if the basis is taxed costs, they will be working at less than the costs which would be obtainable from one's own private clients, because there are many items of work done by solicitors (and by barristers) which are not admitted for the purpose of taxation but which are still incurred for the benefit of the litigant, if he be a litigant, and which enure to his benefit.
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I therefore hope, my Lords, that the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack will give some consideration to the question of doing away altogether with the 15 per cent. discount or allowance which lawyers at present are having to forgo in these legal aid cases.
There are two other points which occur to me. The first is that I sometimes think—and I believe others think with me—it rather unfair that where an assisted person brings a case to court against an unassisted person and the assisted person loses, the unassisted person (and, presumably he is the defendant in the majority of cases), who has won his case, should have to pay his own costs and should not have recourse to the Legal Aid Fund for reimbursement in whole or in part. This is commented on in the Ninth Report of the Law Society on Legal Aid, which says:
"During the year under review the attention of the Council"—
that is, the Council of the Law Society—
"has been drawn to the view expressed in Parliament and the Press that provision should be made whereby the opponent of an unsuccessful person could in proper cases have his costs paid out of the Legal Aid Fund. The Council consider these criticisms are well founded and in their view provision should be made accordingly."
One hopes that that may soon be brought about.
The other question which occurs to me has relation to Scotland. I do not profess to be an authority on Scottish law, but I gather that the practice in some directions is rather different there. I have sat at times on a certifying committee in England which has had to judge whether an applicant had a prima-facie case on which a certificate should be given for him to secure legal aid. As your Lordships will appreciate, in sitting on a committee having to give a decision on that question, one has statements before one of witnesses on the one side only, and no information as to whether there is any objection from the other side, or any particulars of the defendant's case, and a decision has to be come to on information supplied by the one side only, without hearing the other side. I understand that in Scotland the certifying committee asks the prospective defendant whether he or she has any objection to the giving of legal

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aid. That gives an opportunity to the unassisted person to put forward any case or any points which he or she has by way of objection.
One of the functions of trade unions is to take up cases on behalf of their members and to bear the expense. A member submits an application and the solicitors to the trade union consider the case and its possibilities and may advise that there is no case. There have been instances where, notwithstanding that expression of opinion and the eventual decision of the trade union not to support the case, the individual concerned has gone to the legal aid certifying committee and obtained leave, because, of course, the certifying committee had no knowledge that the trade union had already investigated the case and come to a decision against the applicant. It is a difficult matter, and some may think a reflection on trade unions, in one sense, if that sort of thing happens, but they do their best for their members and if they are of opinion that a member has no case, the certifying committee should have information and pay some regard to that fact. It is possible for there to be abuse of the Legal Aid Scheme in some instances, and it would appear that the practice in the Scottish courts, whereby the certifying committee asks the prospective defendant whether he or she has any objection to legal aid might be considered as being a useful practice to institute in the English courts. That, however, requires careful consideration.
I am afraid that I have detained your Lordships for some time. We on this side of the House wholeheartedly support the Bill. We think it will bring help and relief and, we hope, justice to a great many people who would otherwise not be in a position to take steps to obtain what they believe to be their rights. We hope that when the occasion arises the limit will be raised again when necessary; and this. I gather, will be possible without recourse to Parliament, because the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Scotland will have power under this Bill to make regulations. I hope that that will be done from time to time, if and when the necessity arises, and also that the scope of the Legal Aid Scheme may eventually he extended to those portions of our legal system to
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which at the moment it does not extend. We support the Second Reading of the Bill.
5.27 p.m.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, I, too, should like to thank the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack for the full and detailed explanation he has given of the provisions of the Bill, and also for the illustrations which he had carefully prepared for us. After listening to the noble and learned Viscount I think that probably the new figures are about right. It is very much a question of judgment and opinion; one could take one basis for an increase, or another basis, but I should imagine that the basis proposed, which has been obviously carefully worked out by the noble and learned Viscount and his advisers, is about right.
As to the wider considerations other than those contained in Clause 1 of the Bill, I think we should all agree that this is a most remarkable scheme. It is a social service which is, to a large extent, in the early stages and mechanics of it, done voluntarily. The committees which consider whether there is a case for a certificate act voluntarily; it is run by a voluntary organisation, the Law Society, and also, to some extent, the Bar Council, in conjunction with the Lord Chancellor's Department and the courts. It is, I suppose, a remarkable instance of the British way of doing things in an empirical fashion. Here is a great social service which was started in quite a small way and is being built up largely on a voluntary basis.
In the early days of the system certain criticisms were levelled at it by those who had experience of it. The first, I think, was that not all the courts were covered. The noble and learned Viscount has brought more and more of those in, and now, by and large, except for one or two elevated ones whose decision the average litigant is not likely to want to seek, that loophole has been stopped up. Then there was what, to my mind, was a much more important criticism: namely, that the litigant did not come before the committee until things were pretty far gone and he wanted to go to court. There was no system of advice. I think it was a most important reform when the Lord Chancellor, I believe last year, brought in the new situation that the person who felt himself or herself aggrieved could seek

719
legal advice. It has been my experience in thirty years or more of practice that time and time again if you can get at the person who is aggrieved early enough you can do a great deal without any recourse to litigation. I should think that for every case that appears before the court at least ten are settled out of court without even any pleadings being exchanged between the parties or a writ or summons being issued. That, to my mind, is of great value to the public, and particularly to those who desire to take advantage of the Legal Aid Scheme.
The third criticism was the one just mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, which I was going to mention in any case, namely, what happens to the successful defendant—that is, where a person who takes advantage of legal aid goes to the court and is not successful. The successful defendant has been put to considerable expense, and as at present—I am subject to correction by the noble and learned Viscount—I believe he has no recourse against anyone unless he can get something out of the plaintiff. That is not very likely, or such a person would not have obtained legal aid in the first place. I confess that it is a very difficult, question to answer.
Of course, the offchance of that ought not to dissuade the Committee which is giving the legal aid certificate; if they think the plaintiff has a resonable chance, then they should give him a certificate. The fact that he might lose owing to some point of law which they cannot be expected to decide, should not dissuade them from giving him a certificate. Yet a good deal of injustice, harm or damage may accrue to the successful defendant. Is it right to load the scheme up with his costs? That is really what one has to decide: whether the public should bear the costs which now the successful defendant has to bear.
I think the whole attitude towards litigation has completely changed, even from the day when I started in practice. When people go to litigation nowadays, if, they are plaintiffs they expect to win, and if they are defendants they do not expect, if they win, to bear any costs or charges whatsoever. That is quite different from the old days. I remember my grandfather telling me when I was a boy that he had had a case, and had
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won it. I said, "Did you get anything as a result?" He said, "Good gracious, no! I won the case." It did not seem to worry him at all that he had got nothing out of it. I am sure that in those days, particularly perhaps in Wales, where people are a little more litigious, when one won the case the fact that one got nothing out of it was regarded as a comparatively minor matter. The sporting outlook on litigation is not now present at all—not in England, at any rate.
One must have regard for the fact that this will become more and more a factor, and complaints will be made more and more by those who successfully defend a suit that they cannot get anything out of the plaintiff by way of costs which they have suffered in the action. I am glad I have not got to decide that problem. It is very difficult to decide how we are to put it right. At the present moment, at all events, the Lord Chancellor has dealt successfully with two of the main criticisms of the Scheme, and I have no doubt that, in the course of time, if he has the time on the Woolsack to deal with it, he will be able to deal with the third.
5.33 p.m.
LORD SPENS: My Lords, may I raise one short point? I should like to add my word of thanks to the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack for all that he has done in this Scheme. But as one who has come recently from another place representing constituents, I may mention that I had three cases of exactly the same kind last year. They were all cases where the plaintiffs had obtained certificates that they were entitled to legal aid. They were told that they had a good case, and that they could go ahead. According to their own stories, no one had warned them that they were liable to make a contribution towards the costs. I do not know what the regulations are. I should have imagined that a plaintiff, after getting a certificate, should have signed something saying that he knew that in any circumstances he might have to make a contribution. If the regulations do not require some sort of signature from a plaintiff that he knows that he may have to make a contribution, then I would suggest to your Lordships that the new regulations should include something of that sort.

721
One was accustomed to the complaints of those who were dissatisfied with having been turned down by the committees, but it was a new thing to me to have a complaint from educated people who had started their litigation without knowing that they had to make any contribution. One, at least, said that in no circumstances would she have started the litigation if she had thought she was liable to make any contribution out of her limited amount of capital. I hope that that matter will be attended to by the regulations, if it is not already there.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I shall not delay the House for more than a moment. I rise only to welcome this Bill and to congratulate my noble and learned friend upon it. I should like also strongly to agree with what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, on the great value of the extension which enables advice to be given, and not merely assistance with litigation.
5.37 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am grateful, first of all, collectively to all your Lordships for what you have said. If I may take the penultimate point first, that raised by my noble and learned friend Lord Spens, I am informed that there is a plain statement on the form of application that a contribution may be required. In view of what my noble and learned friend has said I will look into the point specifically and see whether we can give it any greater prominence, but, in fairness to those running the Scheme, I should like to tell him that it is on the form. I am sorry that his constituent should have missed it. I agree with what the noble Lords, Lord Ogmore and Lord Cones-ford, have said about the importance of the advice provisions. I have always shared their view, and I am glad that I shall be able to secure that those provisions shall come into operation.
The debate was opened after my speech by an interesting and informative speech from the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds. It is tremendously important that everyone should recognise, as all your Lordships have recognised to-day, that (to put it in the slightly more cheerful terms in which it has often been put before) the statement that "the Courts of Justice, like the Ritz Hotel,
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are open to everyone" is something which we have definitely decided to end. We know, and will agree, how important a badge of civilisation good judges and good courts are, but unless we can see that people of middle and lower ranges of income can come to these courts, then they are not really fulfilling their purpose in the State. I am sure we are all in agreement upon that.
Everyone has had in mind the position of the successful unassisted defendant. The noble Lords, Lord Milner of Leeds and Lord Ogmore, mentioned it, and we have all had it in mind. Of course there comes a point, quite irrespective of our Party political views, which we must all consider; and that is what it is fair to put on to the general body of taxpayers and what chance the individual must take for himself in life. The chance of being sued unsuccessfully is one which, of course, has always been there, and one must remember that all the State is doing is to give the other person, whose case, after all, has been investigated by the original committee, the chance of bringing that case. I find it very difficult to accede to the view that that is necessarily a matter for the general body of taxpayers. None the less, I am greatly concerned about the problem.
I believe that there are certain things that I can do, because it has been suggested that the assisted litigant should go to the Court of Appeal only with leave of the court. But, just to show the difficulty of the problem, I have had the figures prepared for me. These show that the overall percentage of successful legally-aided appellants is over 44, whereas the overall percentage of successful appellants to the House of Lords, where leave has to be obtained, is only 32 per cent. That just shows the sort of difficulty that arises.
I think there are two important matters which are not sufficiently known. The unassisted person's opponent is entitled to refer the case to the area committee when he thinks that the assisted person has unreasonably refused a fair offer to settle the case, whether or not that offer was made without prejudice. I think that that should be made clear, and amendments to the Regulations with this effect will be put before me when the Regulations have to be amended to provide the financial limits for legal aid in matters

723
not involving litigation. I believe that that will be a strengthening of the procedure by which representations can be made, and may prevent unmeritorious cases being continued. I shall do my best, and of course it is a matter for individual judges, with whose discretion I am very chary of interfering. However, I feel that I might be able to bring to their attention the great importance of exercising their powers so that assisted persons do, in fact, pay all their opponents' costs they reasonably can. Sometimes it has been said to me that they are rather inclined towards an assisted person and let the matter go. I will pursue both those lines, and I hope that they will have some effect; and, as I have said, I shall always consider the more general problem although it is one on which I have grave doubts.
The noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds, asked me to consider the question of doing away with the deduction. Of course, I will consider very carefully what he said, and I will consider the memorandum that I receive from the Law Society. I must say that, sentimentally, I should be rather sorry to see it go. For hundreds of years it has been a tradition of the profession to make some gesture. We all have memories of very long days in court, with practically no fees, in our early years, though we must not make our successors suffer the same thing just because we suffered it ourselves. At the same time, I believe there was a real satisfaction in making the contribution that we made. The whole question is one on which I have invited the Law Society to put their
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views before me, and I can assure the noble Lord they will be considered.
I addressed your Lordships for a long time in opening this debate, and I think that I have dealt with most of the points. I should only like to add my own contribution to the state of mind which the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, described so charmingly. One of the most moving experiences of my life was appearing in a magistrates' court in North Wales. My client had two charges made against her: one was for assaulting the police and the other was for a breach of the local market regulations. I got her off the assault and she was convicted and fined 40s. for the breach of the market regulations. I went back with my solicitor and found her in floods of tears. I said, "I am very sorry", and she said, "Oh, it's not the fine, Mr. Maxwell Fyfe; it's you having lost the case after all you did." I thought it exactly exemplified what Lord Ogmore said, and I should like to close on that irrelevant but, to me, always charming note of the delights of litigation in the Principality of which I am so fond. I thank your Lordships very much for your reception of the Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived.

WAR DAMAGE (CLEARANCE PAYMENTS) BILL
5.48 p.m.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
House adjourned at eleven minutes before six o'clock.