Sitting of 29 October 1959

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  SELECTION
  Committee of Selection nominated: Sir Peter Agnew, Sir Herbert Butcher, Mr. Glenvil Hall, Sir Norman Hulbert, Mr. Kenyon, Sir Hendrie Oakshott, Mr. Oliver, Brigadier Sir Otho Prior-Palmer, Sir Spencer Summers, Mr. John Taylor, and Mr. Woodburn.—[Mr. Legh.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Gaitskell: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will announce the business for next week?
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. R. A. Butler): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
The debate on the Address in reply to the Gracious Speech will be continued on MONDAY, 2ND NOVEMBER, and be brought to a conclusion on TUESDAY, 3RD NOVEMBER.
It would be convenient, Mr. Speaker, if you would be good enough to indicate to the House which Amendment or Amendments you propose to call and the days upon which they will be taken.
WEDNESDAY, 4TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Sea Fish Industry Bill and of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolutions.
Consideration of Motion to approve the Import Duties Order (Lighter Flints).
THURSDAY, 5TH NOVEMBER—Consideration of a Motion for an humble Address to Her Majesty the Queen relating to the Retirement of Mr. Speaker Morrison.
Second Reading of the Cinematograph Films Bill and of the Lord High Commissioner (Church of Scotland) Bill, and
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Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
FRIDAY, 6TH NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Marshall Scholarships Bill and of the Foreign Service Bill, and Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolutions.
Mr. Speaker: It is probably for the convenience of the House if I respond at once to the invitation to indicate the Amendments selected.
I have considered them and propose to select the Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and other right hon. Gentlemen relating to Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia.
[But humbly regret that the Gracious Speech contain no proposals for ending the state of emergency in Nyasaland, for the release or trial of political prisoners; or for an early and substantial extension of the franchise in Nyasaland and Northern Rhodesia so that the Governments of these Protectorates may truly represent their peoples at the proposed Conference on Central African Federation.]
I propose to call that on Monday, and I propose also to select the next Amendment standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman, relating to home affairs.
[But humbly regret the omission of any effective proposals for achieving continuous industrial expansion without rising prices; for dealing adequately with the problems for industries facing special difficulties such as coal mining, cotton and shipbuilding; or for assisting old people and widows, those who are sick, disabled or unemployed and others still living in poverty and hardship.]
If the aforementioned Amendment is disposed of on Monday, I propose to call the latter Amendment on Tuesday.
Mr. Gaitskell: I am much obliged to you, Mr. Speaker.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House when the Local Employment Bill is likely to receive a Second Reading and whether he can give us two days for the debate on that Bill?
Mr. Butler: It is likely that the Government will attempt to provide two days for debate. The exact date will take into account the need for the Opposition

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and the House generally to study the Bill. I think that adequate time will be given and in due course I will intimate the date to the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Emrys Hughes: Could the Leader of the House tell us what are his intentions about the Lord High Commissioner (Church of Scotland) Bill? This Bill was never mentioned in the course of the General Election at all. I do not know what mandate the right hon. Gentleman has had. Will it be considered by the Scottish Grand Committee, or be put to a Committee packed by English landlords?
Mr. Butler: In the latter event, the Committee would be highly respectable.
Mr. Hughes: That does not reassure me.
Mr. Butler: In answer to the hon. Member's former observations, the Measure is one which is designed to make possible the distinguished and important duties of the Lord High Commissioner and will be considered on its Second Reading, as I have indicated to the House, on Thursday next.
Mr. Hughes: Will the Committee stage be taken on Wednesday as well?
Mr. Butler: I think that we had better pass the Second Reading first and then consider those matters.
Mr. Harold Davies: Can the Leader of the House tell us whether the Government have prepared, as some of us understand they have, a land drainage Bill, which was promised to us and of which nothing is mentioned in the Gracious Speech? Is there a likelihood of that Bill being presented to the House this Session?
Mr. Butler: I cannot give a definite answer. The hard-working propensities of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture are well known. I feel convinced that he has the matter of land drainage well up to date and that when he is in a position to make an announcement in the House he will do so.
Mr. Mellish: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that next week we shall be putting questions to various Ministers and that some of us are very dissatisfied that we still have a system by which we are not able to ask the Minister of
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Transport more detailed Questions, particularly relating, for example, to British Railways? Will the right hon. Gentleman note that there is a very strong feeling that the time has now come when we should have the right to ask the sort of Questions that we want to ask?
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir, I will take note of the hon. Gentleman's point. We have made adjustments in the matter of Questions in the past, particularly those relating to labour and colonial affairs. I will now pay attention to the point raised by the hon. Gentleman, subject, of course, to the general reservation about interference in the day-to-day activities of the nationalised industries.
Mr. Mellish: That is the whole point. We know that when this arrangement was started there may have been good reasons for such Questions not being asked, but we think that the time has now come when they should be asked. We can ask Questions about the day-today administration of the Post Office, so why can we not ask similar Questions on anything we like?
Mr. Butler: I think that it is accepted and has been accepted from the other side of the House that to answer a Question asking why the 8.53 train from one place to another was late is rather awkward on the Floor of the House. The relationship of the nationalised industries to Parliament is a large matter. Within reason I think that we would wish all questions to be possible. I do not think I should go further now, when dealing with business questions, but I will certainly meet the hon. Gentleman if he so desires.
Lieut. - Colonel Bromley - Davenport: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is not a question of the 8.53 train being late or early, but rather that a whole lot of these beastly trains are dirty, late and very often dangerous?
Mr. Butler: My hon. and gallant Friend's question appears to raise wider issues.
Mrs. Braddock: When the Leader of the House is considering Questions about the British Transport Commission, will he bear in mind that it may be necessary to ask Questions about the inland waterways, which are also controlled by

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the Commission? There are very important questions to be asked about the closure of parts of canals and the danger to children from canals which are not closed. Those are matters with which it should be possible to deal at Question Time.
Mr. Butler: The hon. Lady's question also raises wider questions of policy which surely could be ventilated on the Floor of the House.
Mr. Shinwell Mr. Shinwell rose—
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Driberg.
Mr. Driberg: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the arrangements about not dealing with day-to-day problems were only provisional arrangements in the first instance, agreed between both sides of the House and Mr. Speaker of that time? Will he also bear in mind that during the war, when there was a Ministry of War Transport, it was possible to put down Questions about the 8.53 train and that the Order Paper did not get unduly overloaded?
Mr. Butler: I am very much interested that at the opening of the new Parliament this issue should have been raised. I think that it should now be properly considered, not merely discussed across the Floor. I certainly undertake that it will be considered.
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Shinwell.
Mr. Shinwell: I am very grateful to you, Mr. Speaker; I am very glad that Privy Councillors are not to be penalised. In passing, let me say there are ways and means of getting in. Let there be no mistake about that. We are going to have freedom in this House. I hope that the young Tories will demand freedom and be on their toes—arise ye starvelings from your slumbers!
This is a matter of very great importance. Surely the time has come when the right hon. Gentleman should have made up his mind about this matter, which has been raised in the House over and over again. No one wants to ask Questions about the time at which a train arrives at or leaves a station. That is not the issue. We demand the right to ask the Questions. At present, when these Questions are
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put to a Minister we are referred to the National Coal Board or to the British Transport Commission. Surely we ought not to be placed in that invidious position. Will the right hon. Gentleman consult my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench—and perhaps some other Members of the House—as to the best means of dealing with this very difficult matter, so that we have some freedom of movement?
Mr. Butler: This is a matter of concern not only to the usual channels, which I will certainly consult, but also to hon. Members and the Table and Mr. Speaker, because at present they are working under certain assumptions. It would be necessary to have proper consultation, but, subject to that, I think that we may well leave the matter there.
Mr. P. Noel-Baker: As one who had to answer Questions about transport during the war, it was my experience that Parliamentary Questions always helped to promote efficiency in industries under public control and it was my later experience that Parliamentary control and debate were very powerful factors in improving the efficiency of public industries.
Mr. Manuel: Can the Leader of the House say whether, if the Minister of Agriculture brings forward a Bill dealing with land drainage, there will be a similar Bill to deal with outstanding schemes and the necessary drainage legislation for Scotland?
Mr. Butler: I think that it is better to deal with one thing at a time, but I will discuss that with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland as well.
Mr. Blackburn: Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the recommendation of the Select Committee on Procedure, that details of business for the following Monday week should be given?
Mr. Butler: Yes, Sir. I think that that was partially covered by my answer yesterday, namely, that we now want to analyse the various recommendations of that Select Committee and to bring them forward in due course for the consideration of the House. In doing so, I will certainly pay attention to the point raised by the hon. Gentleman.

BILL PRESENTED
  AIR CORPORATIONS
  Bill to increase the borrowing powers of the British Overseas Airways Corporation and the British European Airways Corporation, presented by Mr. Sandys; supported by the Attorney-General, Sir Edward Boyle, and Mr. Rippon; read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next and to be printed. [Bill 1.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY
  QUEEN'S SPEECH

    DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS
    [THIRD DAY]
    Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [27th October]:
    That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as follows:
    Most Gracious Sovereign,
    We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
    Question again proposed.
    2.48 p.m.
    The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd): The passage in the Gracious Speech dealing with foreign affairs indicates the purposes of Her Majesty's Government in broad terms. I want to be a little more specific about certain of them.
    There are, of course, still grounds for anxiety about certain matters affecting Communist and non-Communist States. for example, the friction on the frontiers of India and China, and the situation in Laos. I think that it would be foolish to try to persuade ourselves that many difficulties do not continue to exist, but by and large I claim that considerable improvement has been made since this time last year in East-West relations. There may be grave dangers still ahead, but I have a feeling that the drift towards war has been considerably dissipated.
    So far so good, but it is extremely important to maintain this momentum, and that is where there has been a certain difference of opinion among the Western Allies. I think that it is a mistake to sensationalise those differences because we are an alliance of free partners and, obviously, we differ from one another from time to time about tactics and methods.
    These differences cover two points, the nature of a Summit Meeting about which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister spoke on Tuesday, and the second question is that of timing. It is

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    very important that we should not lose the momentum. Since February we have been almost continuously in contact with the Soviet leaders. There was our visit to Moscow, the long negotiations at Geneva, and then Mr. Khrushchev's visit to the United States. I think that it would be a mistake to wait too long before there is another series of personal contacts.
    So far as the actual arrangements are concerned, as the Prime Minister told the House on 27th October, the President of the United States made it clear to his allies very soon after Mr. Khrushchev's visit that he was in favour of a Western Summit Meeting, as it has come to be called, as early as practicable; this to be soon followed by a full Summit Meeting. Within the last day or two there has been a further exchange between the allies and it now looks as though the date most likely to suit all the Governments concerned for the Western side will be a date some time in the middle of December.
    This is not as soon as we were willing to attend a meeting, but one of the advantages of this date will be that we shall be able to have full discussions with other N.A.T.O. Governments, and, after all, they are as much concerned as we are about the matters that are likely to be discussed. It also means that the programme of visits that has been arranged can be carried out. M. Spaak is coming here next week, Dr. Adenauer is due to come here on about 17th November, and I hope that the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister of Italy will visit us shortly after that.
    Meanwhile, as to the date of the full Summit Meeting, we still consider that it should be held as soon as practicable but it is not only the convenience of Western Governments that has to be considered, but also that of the Soviet Government and Mr. Khrushchev. I understand that M. Couve de Murville told the Foreign Affairs Commission of the French Assembly that he thinks that Mr. Khrushchev will visit France during the first three months of next year. We shall still work for a meeting as soon as practicable. It may be a very risky thing to say in the field of foreign affairs, but we are making progress in getting this programme of meetings fixed up.
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    There is another important aspect of these matters. During our conversations in Moscow we deliberately decided that instead of being content with talks, and arrangements for further talks, we should try to come to some specific agreement. We therefore decided that in the field of trade, of personal contacts and cultural exchanges, which is a strange phrase that has now become part of the international vocabulary, and communications we should try to make specific agreements with the Soviet Government.
    We made an agreement about trade. It is too early to say how it will work out, but one of the provisions of the agreement was that there should be an annual joint review. The first review will take place before 30th June, 1960. In spite of the difficulties that are known to right hon. and hon. Members we hope to expand Anglo-Soviet trade. We also made an agreement about cultural exchanges and personal contacts, and a programme of exchanges is now well under way.
    As part of it, a number of British students have already gone to the Soviet Union to attend universities and courses in the Soviet Union, and we have welcomed Soviet students to this country. At present, this programme is on a very small scale. I think that about 100 of our students are going to the Soviet Union and 40 students from the Soviet Union are coming to us.
    A small beginning has also been made in tourism. The Soviet Ambassador has told me that about 4,000 people from this country have spent their holidays in the Soviet Union and that about 3,000 Soviet citizens have come to this country. Currency problems are one of the obstacles to the expansion of this tourism. I hope that as the traffic increases in each direction this may resolve itself. We have already proposed that there should be a further meeting in London on 23rd November to take our plans in this field a stage further, and I hope that the meeting will be attended by Mr. Zhukov, the Soviet Minister concerned.
    So far as communications are concerned, the Air Service Agreement with the Soviet Union, which was signed in December, 1957, has now come into force and is working satisfactorily. I

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    am told that relations between B.E.A. and the Soviet airline, Aeroflot, are good. These may seem to be small beginnings, but I welcome them none the less as practical evidence of an improving atmosphere. It would be a great mistake to underestimate their importance. Though the figures may be small I think that we have to press on to try to expand them.
    I said earlier that there were certain problems affecting relations between the Communist and non-Communist States. Much has been written about Laos during the past six months. One of the difficulties has been to know how much of what has been written or said is accurate. I do not think that there is any country in the world where there is greater difficulty, for geographical and climatic reasons, in finding out what is actually happening. Our information is that the pro-Communist Party in Laos has taken to the jungle, and, with help from North Vietnam, is carrying out insurgency operations against the Government.
    Mr. Harold Davies Mr. Harold Davies (Leek) rose—
    Mr. Lloyd: If I may be allowed to continue what I have to say, it may deal with the point that the hon. Gentleman wishes to raise.
    We, as joint co-chairmen with the Soviet Union of the Geneva Convention of 1954, have a special interest that peace in Indo-China should be maintained. We are anxious to continue to co-operate with the Soviet Union. We believe that the Geneva Agreements were an outstanding success for the diplomacy of reconciliation and we wish that those Agreements should continue in force. That means, in broad terms, that Laos should not become militarily committed to either side. There should not be on its territories bases belonging to either side, save as provided for in the Geneva settlement.
    Hon. Members will have seen it alleged that there are American military bases in Laos. I have had a most categorical assurance that this is not so from Mr. Herter himself, who has said the same thing to Mr. Gromyko. At the same time, the existing establishment in Laos should not be subverted from outside. The Geneva settlement clearly lays
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    down that the signatories should not interfere in the internal affairs of Laos.
    There is a difficulty, and I will not conceal it, about the International Commission, because, with the achievement of the political settlement in Laos and the holding of supplementary elections in May, 1958, the Laotian Government considered that the Commission had finished its job. In July of that year the Commission decided to adjourn. The Laotian Government have made it clear that they do not wish to have it back. Laos is an independent country and we are not prepared to try to impose the Commission on an unwilling Government. Therefore, we have had to try and find another way, making use of United Nations machinery.
    The matter was raised at the Security Council and a sub-committee of the Council was sent to Laos to try to establish the facts. The legality of that was challenged by the Soviet Government, but in our view it was clearly lawful and we used precisely the same argument that Sir Alexander Cadogan, presumably upon the instructions of the Labour Cabinet, used in dealing with the Corfu case, in 1947, and Czechoslovakia, in 1948. The sub-committee went to Laos and the effect of its arrival was almost at once a lessening of tension and anxiety. We are now awaiting its report and I hope that all concerned will very carefully think over what can be done in the future.
    I feel that it would be wrong for me to anticipate the next phase, but I will give a hint. In our view United Nations action would not in any way invalidate the Geneva Agreements; on the contrary, it might complement and support them. I do not want to be more specific today, although I have a clear idea of what I would like to see happen there.
    Mr. A. Fenner Brockway: The right hon. and learned Gentleman has said that there are no American bases in Laos. Is it not a fact that there are American military instructors there, and, also, that America has contributed considerably towards the arming of Laos? May I also ask the Minister whether the reports are true that the United Nations Commission has stated that there was no military support from North Vietnam whatsoever?
    Mr. Lloyd: On the last question, I would ask the hon. Gentleman to await the report. I understand that it will be made public within the next few days, and I think that that should dispose of the matter. I shall be very ready to take what the report says on that point.
    As for the other matters, the hon. Member will remember that according to the Geneva Agreements 1,500 French military personnel were to be left in Laos. I understand that because there were nothing like 1,500 French personnel there an arrangement has been come to between the Americans, the French and the Loatians whereby some American teams are to remain there. As for arms, I understand that the provisions of the Agreements have been kept, but I am willing that all these matters should be subjected to full scrutiny. Our interest is that Laos should be kept genuinely neutral.
    As for another matter mentioned in the Gracious Speech, the Nuclear Tests Conference, this is a case where the negotiations have been slow. They have lasted for very nearly a year. There has, however, been steady progress towards a treaty, and throughout that period there has been a cessation of tests by the three Powers concerned. The position as I see it today is that the three participants in the Conference could agree almost at once that none of them would ever test again in the atmosphere or under water—and those are the only tests which cause any risk to health. It is true that there are still one or two outstanding points, even in that field, about the composition of control posts and the inspection teams, and on administrative matters concerned with control but I think that those matters are capable of compromise solutions fairly quickly. We would then have an agreement with adequate control, which would remove a great deal of the anxiety which is felt about the effects of fall out, and so on.
    But there is also the question of underground tests. There the problem of control has proved much more difficult than the experts meeting in Geneva in August, 1958, thought it would be. In defence of their conclusions it must be remembered that they were discussing the matter with data derived only from a single underground test. Since then there have been other underground tests, as a result of which a great deal of extra information
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    has been acquired, and it is clear that more study will be required before we can reach agreement on a control system to control the suspension of underground tests. We have to get on as quickly as we can with the examination of the new scientific data which was presented to the Russians as long ago as last January, but which they have hitherto declined to discuss—no doubt for what are good reasons so far as they are concerned. Their argument was that it would undermine the agreement reached between the experts last August.
    Another thing that we might do is try to acquire some more scientific data about these matters. One possible course might be for the Soviet Union, the United States and ourselves jointly to have a series of experimental tests underground, on which to base an effective control system. In making this suggestion I am not attempting to destroy in any way the work of the experts in 1958. This would only be a form of completing their conclusions.
    Mr. Arthur Henderson: The right hon. and learned Gentleman has said that it seems possible to reach an agreement upon the indefinite suspension of atmospheric and surface tests, but that there are difficulties about underground tests. In that case, why not have an interim agreement to cover the first two kinds of tests, pending a further investigation of the difficulties surrounding the third?
    Mr. Lloyd: We should be perfectly willing to do so, the moment the matters concerning control posts are settled—and I think that they can be settled quickly. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who opposes it?"] The matter is under discussion.
    Mr. E. Shinwell: The United States.
    Mr. Lloyd: It is not the United States. I do not wish to go into the matter further. We want to arrive at a comprehensive agreement. The position of the United States was made quite clear last April, and I think that it would be wiser for me today not to go further than to direct the right hon. Member's attention to that statement.
    I believe that any agreement affecting underground tests should incorporate the

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    British idea of a quota of inspections. I do not see how it could possibly work otherwise. However this may be, I would ask the House to continue to be patient. The Conference has reconvened, and discussions are proceeding. I say again, quite definitely, that our purpose is to arrive at a comprehensive agreement, if it can be obtained, and we shall continue to negotiate in good faith for such a comprehensive agreement.
    As for disarmament in general, it has been by no wish of ours that there have been no discussions over the last two years about comprehensive disarmament. The plain fact was that the Soviet Union did not agree that the work of the disarmament sub-committee of five should continue. Again, to be fair, they considered it had talked long enough without producing definite results, and that no useful purpose was to be served in its continuing. They did not accept the Disarmament Commission of 25, set up by a resolution of the General Assembly of the United Nations in 1957. I shall not go into the merits of that, because it would not be useful to do so, but those are the facts. There was a procedural deadlock.
    I therefore went to Geneva this year with the firm intention of doing what I could to break this deadlock and get agreement between the four of us, that is to say, the United States, the Soviet Union, France and ourselves, as to a forum in which discussions on comprehensive disarmament could take place. There was a series of conversations with the other Foreign Ministers and the Secretary-General of the United Nations, who visited Geneva. As a result of that we agreed upon a new ten nation body. Its composition would not have been my first choice. Nevertheless, we got agreement on it, and that was a great thing in itself. That agreement was unanimously endorsed by the United Nations Disarmament Commission of all 82 countries.
    We have now to consider the prospects for this new body: whether there is at long last the possibility of agreement on comprehensive disarmament, or whether this hope will still remain just a will-o'-the-wisp. There are certain pundits who are ready to lay the blame on Her Majesty's Government for any failure to
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    reach agreement, but it must be remembered that we have not got it within our power to compel agreement; we have to work for something which the United States, the Soviet Union and our other allies will accept.
    When, in 1951, I started on these discussions, the Western view, broadly, was that the control organ had to be constituted and set up in its entirety before disarmament could begin. The Soviet view was that agreement to disarm should be entered into and acted upon before the control organ was set up. This certainly applied to their one-third cut in conventional armed forces and to their agreement to abolish nuclear weapons. This was the position in 1951. I felt that in the light of the experience we had had of these negotiations we must try to search for a solution midway between these two theses, and it was one of the merits of the Anglo-French plan of 1954 that disarmament should take place by stages as the control organ felt capable of controlling it. That conception was not then accepted by the Soviet Government.
    Another difficulty was that the Soviet Government demanded the abolition of the nuclear deterrent before conventional disarmament. They also required the liquidation of foreign bases in the early stages in the agreement and we could not accept either of those positions. In Mr. Khrushchev's new plan the Soviet Union seem to have changed some of these former positions. In this new plan conventional disarmament is to be completed before any nuclear disarmament and the liquidation of foreign bases takes place at the end of the process of conventional disarmament. I think that these are new features, new positions, which require very careful consideration.
    I think that it is common ground on both sides of the House that control remains the key issue. Mr. Khrushchev said in his speech—there has been a slight difference in the text, but I have the copy of the hand-out given in the United Nations at the time of his making his speech:
    "There should be initiated a system of control over all disarmament measures which should be created and should function in conformity with the stages by which disarmament should be effected."

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    In the declaration circulated at the same time as his speech was being made it was said:
    "The scope and control of inspection shall correspond to the extent of the phased disarmament of States."
    I think that it will be a primary task of the new body to clarify these statements, but I am certainly not without hope that they may make agreement easier. I do not think that we have to be too dogmatic or theoretical on either side about this question.
    Mr. Aneurin Bevan: Did not Mr. Khrushchev go on to say, in elaboration of this thesis, that there should be no control without disarmament?
    Mr. Lloyd: I think that it is true that there should be no control without disarmament, and we would agree, but I would say that there could be no disarmament without control, and there we have, I think, the position perfectly balanced. I think that this new formula may form a way of proceeding towards those two objectives.
    I tried to set out the British position with regard to these matters on 17th September, the day before Mr. Khrushchev spoke. I stated in terms so clear that I did not think that they could have been misunderstood—certainly not in any archiepiscopal circles—that comprehensive disarmament is our aim, that is, the abolition of all nuclear weapons and all weapons of mass destruction and the reduction of conventional forces and armaments to internal security levels. That is our aim, that is our objective.
    I also indicated that the end of the road must be a world organ capable of enforcing the peace, because if the process ends in anarchy, or a veto-ridden body, we are no better off than at present. The process must end in a world order and in the rule of law throughout the world. I deliberately posed that question, because I think it of great importance in these disarmament discussions.
    Mr. K. Zilliacus: As I understood it, the Government's position at one time was that they would not agree to any substantial measure of disarmament unless there were political settlements. Has that
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    position been changed? Is that no longer the position of the Government?
    Mr. Lloyd: We always hoped that these two processes would go on pari passu. I have said that progress on disarmament is a help towards political settlement and that political settlement is a help towards disarmament, but I do not think it wise to make one conditional on the other.
    I think the hon. Member is referring to a particular case of certain reductions proposed in conventional forces. It was said that in the absence of other measures of disarmament we should not come to the last stage of conventional forces being reduced, without political settlements. I do not think that it would happen. But we now have a chance of a new look at the problem and I hope we do not take up an irrevocable and dogmatic position with regard to these matters.
    I tried to set out the balanced stages by which I thought we could achieve the ultimate objective, maintaining a balance between conventional and nuclear disarmament. I said that we were ready to begin at once on certain studies and preparatory measures that would start the process. The debate in the Political Committee of the United Nations finished yesterday in a unanimous Resolution. No doubt that will go to the General Assembly and I hope that there it will be passed also unanimously. I hope that the new ten-nation body will get to work as soon as possible with the intention of tackling this complicated subject speedily and effectively.
    The proposals which I presented in outline to the General Assembly on 17th September were prepared as soon as I knew that this new ten-nation body was coming into being. I hoped that they would form a useful guide so that public opinion should be able to see the way in which we thought progress might be made and so that delegations should have something before them when preparing for the meeting of the new body. After that, Mr. Khrushchev made his speech and so the delegations preparing for the meeting of the new body have two outline plans before them; and I hope that they will take account of the views expressed by other members of the United Nations.

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    I wish only to add that I warmly support the emphasis which my old friend and colleague, M. Moch, the French representative, laid in his speech to the Political Committee upon the control of means of delivery of nuclear weapons. That may well be the answer to what we know to be one of the problems, that we cannot absolutely 100 per cent. guarantee the discovery of all nuclear weapons. The control of means of delivery is something which I think is a much more practical possibility.
    The final matter about which I want to say something is the British relationship with the other countries of Western Europe. Since the war there have been great movements of opinion towards closer co-operation and towards the idea of a united Europe. I wish to make absolutely clear, because what one says is so easily misunderstood, that when I talk about Europe, I am including Great Britain as part of Europe.
    The reasons for this movement of opinion are not altogether clear. Some say it is due to a feeling of responsibility for the past, for the fact that there have been begun in Europe twice this century wars which so nearly destroyed not only Europe, but the world with it, and that must never be allowed to happen again. Some say that its cause is because there is a feeling of relative loss of power and influence in the world. It may, on the other hand, be the consciousness of the contribution which Europe still has to make. Whatever the reasons, there has not been agreement as to how to express this movement of opinion in political institutions.
    It is quite true that we have had this proliferation of organisations—O.E.E.C., the Council of Europe, N.A.T.O., Western European Union, the Coal and Steel Community, Euratom, European Economic Community, the Six and now the Seven. May I say, in parenthesis, that I am very conscious of the contributions which many hon. Members from all parts of the House make in attending the meetings of these various organisations and in seeking to sustain this European idea.
    I very much appreciate, for example, the work of the right hon. Member for Brighouse and Spenborough (Mr. J. Edwards), who is now President of the Council of Europe. In the course of duty during the General Election I went to speak against the right hon.
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    Gentleman. He got in by, I think, 47 votes. Whether he owes that to my intervention or not, no one will be able to tell. Nevertheless, I am sure that we all wish him well in his task.
    There are really four headings under which these Western European relationships have to be examined. There is political consultation in N.A.T.O. or in smaller groupings; economic cooperation, in other words relations with the Six, and when the Seven comes into being, its relationship with the Six. Next, the institutions and organisations now distributed through Western Europe, and, finally—perhaps most important of all—the confidence which exists between particular Governments and peoples. We must, of course, not forget the purpose of this. It is not just to have a neat and tidily arranged Western Europe. We must remember that it is Europe as a whole, and at present we have a dividing line through Europe severing Eastern Europe from Western Europe.
    The purpose of this is to make a considerable contribution ultimately to the problem of European security as a whole. I think, therefore, that there are many who feel that in Europe at present there is a strange mixture of hope and fear, optimism and pessimism, and a feeling that some are drawing closer together and others are moving further apart.
    About all these matters I think that we have to have a series of frank talks. As I said earlier, M. Spaak comes here next week. I go to Paris on 11th November, Dr. Adenauer and Herr von Brentano are coming here in the following week. The Italian Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister will be coming soon after that. I think that we have to take advantage of all these opportunities for frank discussions about a fresh start to sort all this out together, because I feel that if we can preserve the will to co-operate we shall find a way through all these complications.
    There are many other aspects of foreign affairs—for example, the help for underdeveloped countries—with which I should very much like to have dealt, but I do not want to take up too much of the time of the House. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State will speak later and deal with points raised in the

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    debate. I want to say, in conclusion, just this: that I am very well aware of the responsibility which this new mandate imposes upon the Government. Relatively, we in Britain may not now have so much physical power as other countries, but we have great influence and a unique opportunity for influencing events. I think that on the broad purposes set out in the Gracious Speech there will be general agreement in all parts of the House. I promise that we shall do our best to see that our influence is exerted to the full to achieve those purposes.
    3.22 p.m.
    Mr. Denis Healey: The Foreign Secretary has given us one of those detailed progress reports with which we have become familiar. As usual, he took us on a tour of the world and there were many capitals at which he chose to make a halt. There were others which he curiously avoided. I shall refer to them later. I shall deal with many of the points he raised, but, if he and the House will excuse me, I do not propose to follow exactly the same route. If I did, I think the House would weary of it even before I did.
    What was lacking, I think, in his speech was any general sense of vision about the shape of British foreign policy as a whole at the present time. I would not blame him too severely for that, because I think we all recognise that the occupant of his office suffers under very severe inhibitions of speech. Anybody speaking from the Opposition Front Bench has greater freedom. It is a freedom which I and my right hon. Friends in recent weeks fought very hard to avoid having, but, since we now have it, I propose to take advantage of it. I believe that it is appropriate at the start of a new Parliament, a new Parliament which may well last for very much longer than many of us hope, to look some way ahead, because I think we can agree on both sides of the House that the world during the next three or four or five years is likely to undergo very substantial changes.
    I believe that British foreign policy, like the foreign policy of other Powers, will be successful insofar as it adapts itself in time to those changes. I always remember Ernest Bevin—who, with respect to the present incumbent
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    and others who may be in the House, was in my opinion the greatest Foreign Secretary this country has had—once saying that he felt it was impossible to frame a foreign policy for a period of less than ten to twenty years. He added that it is frightfully difficult in modern conditions to look so far ahead. Nevertheless, I think it necessary for us at this stage, particularly in a new Parliament, to try to discern, in a very confused and complicated situation, the way in which world politics are likely to develop over the next few years. If I may, I would have the temerity to suggest that three particular issues stand out, each of them with both positive and negative implications for Britain and for world peace.
    First, in the field of armaments I think it is becoming clear now both to Russia and to the United States of America that neither can destroy the other without being destroyed in return. I think it is also now clear to both those Governments, or will soon become so, that the cost and the danger of continuing their mutual arms race may soon become intolerable. I think we can already see signs that those two great countries, whose political rivalry has dominated world politics for so much of the postwar period, are now slowly feeling their way towards some sort of stable and peaceful relationship with one another.
    We are all, I think, conscious of this and very happy about it, but we should be deceiving ourselves if we ignored the fact that, while these two great Powers are feeling their way towards some sort of accommodation one with another, other Powers are on the point of entering the atomic arms race for the very first time. The fact that the atomic arms race is becoming a general race and not a race primarily between two single Powers is going to present us all with new sources of danger, new sources of instability, to which there is as yet no clear answer.
    I was interested to notice yesterday at the atomic test talks in Geneva that Mr. Tsarapkin was asked a question which I asked the Prime Minister here in the last Parliament, namely, what would be the effect of any agreement to stop atomic tests which was made between Britain, the United States and Russia if France began tests? He was unable to give a reply, as was the Prime

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    Minister unable in this House—[An Hon. Member: "Or Mr. Khrushchev."]—and as Mr. Khrushchev was unable when I and some hon. Friends put this question to him in Moscow a few weeks ago. Here is a problem which may come to take precedence even over the problem of American-Russian relationships in the next five years. I think we require to give it far more thought than has been given to it so far. Indeed, it was totally ignored by the Foreign Secretary in his speech this afternoon.
    The second field in which I think one can discern a general trend is in the political aspects of the cold war itself. On both sides of the Iron Curtain the sharpness of the division of the world into hostile blocs is beginning to blur. Inside both the Communist group of States and the Atlantic group of States arguments on foreign policy are developing and in some respects the arguments are cutting across the old divisions in the cold war. We see on the Soviet side substantial disagreements between the Soviet Union and, for example, Poland in the west and China in the east, and in the Western camp we see a very dangerous division emerging between the Anglo-Saxon Powers and the main Powers of continental Europe, namely, France and Germany.
    To some extent, of course, the chances of a general world settlement will be improved in so far as the ideological crusade loses its force, but we must recognise also, I suggest, that disunity both in the Western camp and inside the Communist camp can produce a serious threat to the general settlement we all desire. I think it would be very shortsighted for the West to welcome the present division between Russia and China just as I think it would be very shortsighted for the Communist countries to welcome the present division between the Anglo-Saxon countries and continental Europe.
    The third great issue on which I think there would be no disagreement inside this House and which may come to dominate world affairs during the period of this Parliament is the developing trend of the revolution in Africa and Asia. It seems to me that during the next five years the transition from Western imperialism may be almost completed in nearly all parts of those two continents,
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    although certain desperate rearguard actions will be fought here and there, particularly in parts of Africa. I think again, if we are honest with ourselves, that we must admit that in those continents there is great internal instability, that there are conflicts between the new States which have come into existence since the end of the Second World War, conflicts which may threaten world peace just as severely as the more familiar conflicts of the cold war itself and that, indeed, we may see appearing in some of these new liberated countries an imperialism which is no longer Western or white but Eastern and coloured and no less dangerous and disagreeable for that.
    All these problems of instability in the Continents of Africa and Asia are likely to be aggravated by the economic division between the coloured peoples and the Western peoples and the fact that the poor countries of the world are still getting poorer as the rich countries get richer. This process must ultimately produce a world catastrophe unless the Western countries assist the countries of Africa and Asia in the process of economic growth.
    I hope that the House will forgive me for indulging in this few minutes of speculation, but it seems to me that British foreign policy over the next few years will be judged historically, if not in Parliament, by its ability to meet these problems in advance. I think that all of us on both sides of the House are too conscious at present of the forces which are making for a settlement in the cold war. We are all indulging in a rosy glow of satisfaction about relaxation in the cold war tension, and we tend to ignore the fact that forces are rapidly developing in all parts of the world which may disrupt this growing world stability unless the countries which now have power and authority use it quickly to create a strong framework of international order.
    These disruptive forces in the world, which have little to do with the old conflict between Communism and democracy, are gathering strength much faster than we think. Even Russia and the United States are weaker today, relative to the rest of the world, than they imagine, and they will become weaker still in the years ahead. I should like to look at the Government's foreign

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    policy in relation to these challenges which I believe will be presented in the next few years.
    First of all, I will deal with the Summit Conference. In talking about it this afternoon the Foreign Secretary had a very different tone from that of the Prime Minister during the last week or two of the General Election. I think that all of us on this side of the House, as well as opposite, are gratified at the sense of urgency which the Government have shown in seeking to attend a meeting of the heads of Governments, but I think that it is a tragedy, no less, that the Government, and particularly the Prime Minister, should have cast doubts internationally as well as nationally upon their motives by trying to exploit this process for electoral purposes. I think that there is no doubt at all—and this has been reported by British observers from other European capitals—that the speeches which the Prime Minister made on this issue during the election campaign have contributed to the current difficulties which we have with General de Gaulle. I think that the fact that the Prime Minister refused to attempt to reply to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition when he raised this problem yesterday is a sign of his guilty conscience in the matter. I leave it at that.
    Mr. Cyril Osborne: The electors gave their reply all right.
    Mr. Healey: The hon. Member must realise that the problems involved in a Summit Conference are a little more complex and a great deal more important than those of knowing who wins a by-election or a General Election.
    Leaving this matter for the moment, I do not like the phrase "Summit Conference", and I think that perhaps we should be wise to use it less than we do. It is certainly true that heads of Governments must meet one another sometimes, because only they can make major changes in their countries' foreign policy. This is certainly true in the Soviet Union. It also appears to be true in France and I suspect that it is also true in Britain and the United States.
    The phrase "Summit Conference" as applied to meetings of heads of Government suggests, particularly to those who do not expect to be represented at the
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    Summit, some form of great Power diktat, and there is no doubt that some countries exploit their possible presence at a Summit Conference in order to inflate their national egoism. The tendency has already created trouble inside N.A.T.O., and there are many signs that it is creating trouble inside the Communist group of States. For example, China has insisted several times on being present at any Summit Conference.
    It seems to me that we must be a little more pragmatic about this problem of meetings of heads of Government. The idea that a few people can sit down and settle the problems of the world is obviously nonsense, and I was glad that the Prime Minister said so yesterday. When heads of Government choose to meet at any given time must depend on the problems under discussion. It would be quite intolerable to give every single head of Government in the Western Alliance a free veto at any meeting which took place on any international problem. I must say that it seems a little odd to me that General de Gaulle is simultaneously claiming that a Summit Conference should settle all the problems in the world and claiming the right on behalf of France to prevent any settlement of which he personally does not approve.
    I do not believe that meetings of heads of Government in the modern world can impose settlements. What they can do is to assist greatly in the harmonisation of national policies, both inside the West—and we welcome the forthcoming meeting of heads of Governments in December—and between the West and the East. But I believe that wherever possible these problems should be shifted back to the normal diplomatic channels and to such multilateral institutions as the United Nations.
    There are certain dangers as well as advantages in the Summit Conference, particularly because the prestige of those who represent their countries at the Summit Conference is so directly and personally involved. There is not only the danger that some Governments may make unwise concessions for the sake of an apparent success at the Conference. There is also the danger, which may be much more evident at the present time, that Governments may deliberately refuse to reach agreements through normal diplomatic channels because they see

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    advantages in saving up agreements for a Summit Conference. I believe that anyone who looks at the course of negotiations on Berlin, for example, over the last six months, will agree that, particularly since Mr. Khrushchev's visit to General Eisenhower, there is no substantial obstacle to an interim agreement on Berlin. The only reason it is not being reached is that both Russia and America see certain advantages in saving up an agreement on this issue for a public demonstration of success at a Summit Conference. I have a nasty suspicion that the prospect of a Summit Conference is similarly delaying agreement on atomic tests.
    Above all, I insist that there is little virtue in a Summit Conference if it is simply for the sake of allowing the television cameras to take pictures of heads of Governments shaking hands. There are certain electoral advantages in that but no diplomatic advantages whatever. If we propose to go to a Summit we must go with policies which make real agreements possible.
    I should like to turn to the two major issues which I believe must figure at the Summit Conference now in prospect—the problem, first of all, of West Berlin and, secondly, of a German settlement. I think we all agree that the situation in West Berlin is abnormal, but it is abnormal only because the division of Germany and the division of Europe is abnormal, and I am afraid that whatever interim agreements may be reached on Berlin, the situation there will remain abnormal as long as the physical position round Berlin remains as it is at present. I must confess that I can see certain dangers in discussing the Berlin problem in isolation from the problem of Germany as a whole and the problem of European security.
    I see little chance of making progress with the problem of Germany as a whole at present, because the West German Government show no sign of a readiness to accept a Western policy which would make progress in this field possible. Therefore, if we are to reap substantial advantages from a Summit Conference which deals with this problem, the issues on which we must concentrate are those of a security settlement in Central Europe.
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    The Foreign Secretary knows that we on this side of the House strongly supported the Prime Minister's declared resolve when he left Moscow last spring to study with the Soviet Union the possibility of limiting and controlling arms in Central Europe. We should like him to go further. We should like a discussion of the whole problem of political and military disengagement in Central Europe, but we believe that as a first step the establishment of arms control on both sides of the Iron Curtain is by far the most hopeful way of dealing with the European problem. Indeed, there is a strong Western interest in seeking such agreement, because all the signs are that the West is already engaged in a unilateral process of military disengagement from Central Europe. Britain has already reduced by half her Armed Forces in Germany, and there are signs that for economic reasons the United States may be compelled to follow suit.
    The Foreign Secretary made no reference to this in his speech. I therefore ask the Minister of State to tell us when he replies to the debate, if the Foreign Secretary cannot intervene now, what Government policy on this issue is. This issue was raised by the Soviet Foreign Minister several times at the Geneva discussions in July. There was no comment whatever from the British Foreign Secretary. Why not? What is our policy on this issue? Are we still in favour of it or not? I will willingly sit down for a moment if the Foreign Secretary cares to reply.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: It is exactly as stated in our General Election manifesto, as the hon. Gentleman knows.
    Mr. Healey: I am very grateful that the Foreign Secretary has said that, because the right hon. and learned Gentleman will be well aware that the manifesto of the party opposite caused some concern in Germany, and it was explained away by Chancellor Adenauer ex cathedra as being a purely party political document of which no more would be heard after the General Election.
    The plain fact is that this issue, which is one of the most critical in the whole of our foreign policy, has been ignored by the Foreign Secretary today. There is no mention of it in the Gracious

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    Speech, and there is no sign whatever that it is still the Government's policy, except a few words in a document produced, I believe, by the Conservative Central Office.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman again, but he may now be making mischief. We have never accepted disengagement. I have said again and again at this Dispatch Box that we do not accept the right hon. Gentleman's or the hon. Gentleman's conceptions of disengagement. We think that they are highly dangerous and will lead to nothing but risk in Central Europe. What we have said consistently is that we believe that there can be geographical areas of inspection and ceilings upon armaments throughout the world. That is a sound conception. We have never changed from it.
    Mr. Healey: The right hon. and learned Gentleman knows that he is trying to evade answering my question by raising other questions. I am not asking him to say whether he agrees with the Opposition's proposal for all-out disengagement. We know that he does not. What we want from him is an assurance that he will continue to press, inside N.A.T.O. and at the Summit Conference, for the study and ultimately the acceptance of limitations on armaments and forces in an agreed zone in Central Europe. May I take it from the right hon. and learned Gentleman's silence that he will?
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: The hon. Gentleman can take it from me exactly what I said—that we still believe that the conception of geographical areas in which there shall be inspection of armaments and ceilings upon armaments is sound. The hon. Gentleman can neither add to nor subtract from that.
    Mr. Healey: I think that the Foreign Secretary has made his position clear. We know now what his beliefs are, but we do not know to what extent they will inspire his actions.
    We know that perhaps one of the reasons for the Foreign Secretary's reluctance to give a clearer answer to my question is that there is opposition to this conception at present inside the Government of Western Germany. We must accept that opposition as sincere
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    and as a factor in the situation. Dr. Adenauer made us all admire him greatly when he made a speech last week in which he said that the German people must recognise that Germany has not yet paid the full price which it would have to pay for having started and then lost the Second World War, that it must be prepared to make sacrifices for a European settlement.
    The one sacrifice which Germany could make and which would be welcomed by the vast majority of Germans themselves is an agreement, not only to refrain from the manufacture of certain weapons by Western Germany—an agreement which the West German Government has voluntarily made—but to limit the number of weapons possessed by Western Germany. If the West German Government are prepared to go that far, I believe that we could see at the Summit Conference real and substantial progress for the first time since the end of the Second World War on a solution of the European problem.
    The establishment of such a zone in Central Europe would be important, not only for its impact on the dangers in Berlin and in improving the prospect of a general German and European settlement, but for this reason above all. I believe that physical co-operation with the Soviet Union on the problem of military security is the indispensable basis for any sort of world order. It may seem odd to talk in those terms, yet any form of disarmament involves physical cooperation on military security between countries which are politically divided from one another.
    I cannot deal at this stage with Mr. Khrushchev's proposals or the Foreign Secretary's proposals for all-out disarmament. My right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker) will do so when he winds up for the Opposition. The key to any progress in a world settlement at present is some sort of physical co-operation with the Soviet Union on the military problem. I believe that the establishment of arms control in Central Europe is one field in which such co-operation is a practical possibility at present.
    The other field is that of an atomic test ban. It is clear from what the Foreign Secretary said that on the question of banning tests above the ground,

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    in the sea, in the air or in the upper atmosphere the only obstacle to a treaty now is the question of the precise proportion of Soviet to Western or neutral representatives in the control posts. An obvious compromise is possible. The real difficulty, as the Foreign Secretary pointed out, is with underground explosions. Here, too, there is a wide degree of agreement, at least in principle. As I understand it, the American Government, as well as the Soviet and British Governments, concede in principle the idea of a quota of inspections, and the only real argument is about the number of on-the-spot inspections of possible underground explosions and the way in which that number is to be calculated. I should be grateful if the Foreign Secretary would tell me if this is not the case.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: I wish that were the only point. A further point is the efficacy of any machinery of control to establish whether there has been a suspicious incident.
    Mr. Healey: I was coming to that. On the question of the number of tests, the Americans as well as the Russians, I gather from the speech of the American representative yesterday, have conceded that they would be prepared to accept an inspection system which did not give them the right to inspect every suspicious circumstance, but only, for example, 20 per cent. of explosions believed to be below 5 kilotons.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: The point to remember is that this is true for practical reasons. It is a physical impossibility for anybody to inspect every suspicious incident, because there are hundreds and hundreds of them.
    Mr. Healey: I know. I hope that the Foreign Secretary is not trying to depreciate the fact that the Americans, the Russians and ourselves agree on something less than an absolutely theoretically perfect number of inspections. The real argument, as the Foreign Secretary says, is what criteria are to be used in deciding what are suspicious circumstances and what form of inspection is likely to be efficacious. Here, too, the elements of a compromise are already beginning to emerge. I was attracted, for example—I expect that my right hon. and hon. Friends generally were—by the Foreign Secretary's suggestion that
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    perhaps the three countries might carry out underground tests together in order to investigate the scientific circumstances.
    The only point I make is that agreement on this problem is very urgent indeed. It is a matter of the next few months—and for two reasons. In the first place—and I am sure that the Foreign Secretary is well aware of this—unless there is agreement soon to set up a control system, public opinion may, in any case, make it impossible for the Western countries to resume testing; so we get a ban on tests without any control, which, from the right hon. and learned Gentleman's point of view, I should have thought to be not a desirable thing.
    Second, as further countries begin to enter the field of atomic weapons production agreement will certainly be more complicated, and I believe that if the three existing military atomic Powers can agree now on a control system and begin to operate it, the chances of getting further atomic Powers to accept the control system, as it exists, will be enormously greater than if we have to start negotiating in six months' time or a year's time with two or three other countries which have completely different ideas, perhaps based on far more limited experience as to what sort of agreement is desirable.
    I make this suggestion to the Foreign Secretary: is not this an issue on which the heads of Government of the three countries concerned might meet now? The only countries concerned in these negotiations are Britain, the Soviet Union and the United States. They are near agreement. It is desperately important that agreement should be reached quickly. Is it not possible that these three heads of Government should meet in the immediate future to discuss this question alone, without waiting for their Summit Conference, which will have to deal with other questions and at which other countries not concerned with these negotiations will be present? I simply put that suggestion to him. I do not ask for an immediate reply, even from the Minister of State.
    Here, again, it seems to me that the greatest prize is the establishment of physical co-operation between the West and Russia on a control system. We must admit that a test ban is only a

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    small first step towards solving the problem of atomic weapons. There remains the tremendous and daunting problem of how to persuade other countries to accept it My own view, and that of all my right hon. and hon. Friends, is that Britain will find it very difficult to take any further initiative on this problem unless she is prepared to put herself on the level of other States in negotiating about it.
    There is just one other matter that arises on this issue. Any control system for a ban on tests will have to be universal if it is to be effective. That immediately raises the problem of putting control stations inside the territory of Communist China. I think that there is no chance of agreement on this issue without bringing China into the international community and getting her co-operation.
    We are all agreed that Chinese behaviour has been abominable and without excuse on certain issues in the last few months, but that behaviour is irrelevant to this problem. I believe that there is growing recognition, even inside the United States, that present Western policy on China is both futile and damaging. A British initiative here could be decisive. I hope that if the Foreign Secretary can not intervene to do so now, the Minister of State will later tell us what the Prime Minister meant when he told the Prime Minister of Japan that the Japanese policy of not recognising Communist China was—and I quote him—"wise and realistic." Would the Foreign Secretary like to reply to that now, or shall we leave it? Nothing is more important—
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Inquisitor.
    Mr. Healey: Mr. Speaker, I conceive it to be the duty of Her Majesty's Opposition to submit Her Majesty's Government to relentless and continuous inquisition, and I hope that nobody, not even the noble Lord, will object to my trying to fulfil this function as best I can.
    I must raise another question in the same field. From what the right hon. and learned Gentleman said this afternoon I think that he agrees with us that Britain must take now every chance there is to try to break the old mould of the cold war. Can the Minister of State
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    tell us why the Government at the present time are supporting the claim of Turkey to a seat on the Security Council as against the claim of Poland? When my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South winds up the debate for the Opposition later today he will deal with the United Nations aspects of the problem: I will simply deal with the political aspect.
    In the last few years all hon. Members on both sides of the House must have been enormously heartened and encouraged by the independence of policy shown by Poland in world affairs, and by the constructive initiative she has been taking for a settlement of European and world problems. It seems to me that, quite apart from all the legalistic and constitutional arguments—which I believe to be in themselves decisive—for a Polish seat on the Security Council, the political and diplomatic arguments would also be decisive by themselves.
    We all respect the Turkish position in the world and in the Western Alliance, but Turkey has already twice been on the Security Council—incidentally, both as a representative of the Middle East and as a representative of Eastern Europe—and Britain has previously supported Poland against Turkey. Why are we not doing so now? I do not believe that there is any real argument against it. After all, Canada and Norway, both members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, are supporting Poland and I beg the Government to reconsider their position before next Monday, when the thirty-second ballot on this issue is to be taken at the United Nations Assembly.
    I must conclude with a reference to a problem that has played all too little part in our past debates but on which I was very glad to hear the Foreign Secretary spend some time today—the question of British relations with continental Western Europe. We have had far too little discussion on this subject in the last five years, but I do not think that either side of the House can afford any longer to ignore the vast and growing gulf between Britain and the main Powers of continental Europe. This gulf is at once a threat to this country's economic future at home and to the sort of settlement with Russia on world affairs that all of us so urgently desire.

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    I must confess, Mr. Speaker, to a sense of irony on recalling that when the Prime Minister first took office just over two years ago and made a speech on the wireless to tell us of his policy, he said that he intended to give first priority to strengthening British relations with Western Europe, and suggested that if we did this we should be able to show more independence of the United States. The fact is that since 1945 British relations with Western Europe have never been so bad as they are today.
    The beginning of improving those relationships is to recognise the fact that so long as the Government continue to maintain that nothing is wrong but that everything is marvellous, that we are loved both in Bonn and in Paris, we cannot expect to start improving the situation. The plain fact is that at the present time the United States is mediating on a large number of issues between us and Western Europe. That is a fantastic situation, even if it did not contradict everything that the Prime Minister was saying just over two years ago—
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: What are they?
    Mr. Healey: I will go over the issues now, Mr. Speaker, in reply to the inquisition from the Foreign Secretary.
    We are at present deeply divided on major economic and political issues. It is just useless to deny that the Common Market, as it is now developing, is likely to produce a very serious threat to our prosperity. There is every sign that the Common Market will now become complete in 1965 instead of in, I think, 1972. It is also useless to deny that among leading representatives of the Common Market countries, and in the Common Market as an institution, there is no interest whatever shown in a close association with Britain. This is one of the problems.
    A drift of international capital from Britain to the Continent has already begun as a consequence. There is even a drift of British capital; several British firms are deciding to build new factories inside the Common Market countries rather than in Britain on account of the trade barriers which are coming into existence. Market sharing arrangements are being made among Continental companies which will freeze British exports
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    out of Europe unless we do something about it. If the Foreign Secretary is not prepared to admit this fact and recognise these dangers, then I despair of anything ever being done to remove them.
    Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: The hon. Gentleman is really not being fair. The whole closing part of my speech was a recognition of these facts. A moment ago, he said that the United States Government were mediating between us and European countries on certain issues, and it was about that that I asked the question.
    Mr. Healey: One issue on which the Americans are mediating between us and the Continent—there is public evidence of this—is the question of the Summit Conference, where they stand midway between us and the Continental countries both as regards date and agenda.
    Mr. R. T. Paget: President Eisenhower came here for that.
    Mr. Healey: I see no disposition on the part of the Foreign Secretary to deny this.
    Not only is there this dangerous position developing on economic policy, but there is open public criticism of the British Prime Minister by the Prime Minister of Germany and the President of France in words which are calculated and chosen to wound him. There is the attempt developing within the Continent to create an independent Continental foreign policy outside N.A.T.O., or, at any rate, quite separately from all the attempts made inside N.A.T.O. I do not, of course, say that these developments are all the fault of Her Majesty's Government, but what I do say is that the situation has been worsened both by the policy of Her Majesty's Government and by the conduct of some of their representatives.
    Nobody who has followed the Continental Press or has visited European capitals during the last year can deny that the impression of complacency and patronising arrogance given by the Prime Minister, particularly since his visit to Moscow, has contributed substantially in worsening relations between Britain and the Continent. There is no doubt whatever that Britain's claim to a special position as a military atomic Power and to a special relationship with the United

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    States—a claim which has often been boasted of in public by Her Majesty's Ministers—has greatly contributed to worsening the atmosphere.
    We must accept that this problem of relations between ourselves and Western Europe is today primarily a psychological rather than a political problem. There is on the Continent at the present time—it is the beginning of wisdom to recognise it—a deep suspicion of British policy towards Europe and a deep suspicion of British motives in Europe.
    I confess that the policy and conduct of the party opposite both in opposition and in Government has given colour to these suspicions. After all, it was a leader of the party opposite who proposed the creation of a European army and then refused to join it when he became Prime Minister. It was another leader of the party opposite who, as Prime Minister, undertook to keep British troops at their existing strength on the Continent until the end of the century and who then appeared to default on his promise. I agree that, if one reads the small print of the agreement, the default cannot be sustained in law, but there is no doubt at all that the impact of the 1957 Defence White Paper and what followed it has been one of the major elements in spreading suspicion and doubt of British motives on the Continent. We cannot begin the process of repairing our relationships unless there is a basic change in our attitude.
    Two things are vital. First, we must now—I confess that we are all at fault here, on both sides of the House—accept the movement towards unity on the Continent as a reality. All of us have consistently underestimated the strength of this movement, and this is one of the reasons for our policy being at fault. The other thing we must accept is that France and Germany are now countries in every sense equal with Britain in the world. On both sides of the Chamber, our vision is slightly distorted by our memories of the post-war epoch when the Continental countries were desperately dependent on foreign aid; but, in the last six years, production in France and Germany has increased three times as fast as it has in Britain, as my right hon. Friend has pointed out in another context. Living standards in those two countries will soon be as high as those in
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    Britain, and may be higher unless we pull our socks up.
    Even if we make these changes in our attitude towards Europe, it will not be easy to improve relations. Some elements in France and Germany do not want us to have closer relations in any case. Others demand a price we cannot pay, a rigidity of policy towards Russia, for instance, or support for French policy in Algeria. But I believe that there is a great fund of potential support for Britain still on the Continent. There are people in all walks of life, in all political parties, in important positions as well as unimportant positions, who have been disappointed by British European policy in the last few years and who are beginning to lose confidence, but their confidence can be restored if we try to mobilise it again.
    I was very disappointed that the Foreign Secretary gave no hint of what his policy was for improving relations. There have been inspired rumours in the diplomatic Press that he is thinking of resurrecting what he rather graciously called the Grand Design a few years ago, which was simply an attempt to juggle with European institutions so as to produce a tidier pattern, an attempt which I think he will have to agree was regarded throughout the Continent with suspicion or derision. I hope that, this time, he or his advisers in the Foreign Office have somthing a little more substantial to offer.
    I do not myself believe that there is a magic formula for improving relations, but I believe that we must begin to seek co-operation wherever it is possible. It may well be possible, very often, in nongovernmental matters, perhaps in cooperation in the building of supersonic airliners or even ocean liners. There is a very strong case for looking again at Britain's relationships with the European Atomic Energy Authority which now looks like modifying its functions in ways which would make it easier for us to co-operate. I am quite certain that, unless Britain gives this problem much higher priority than it has had before, the growing gulf between ourselves and the Continent can wreck all our hopes for progress both at home and abroad.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South will deal later in the debate with some of the major issues of our

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    relationships with Africa and Asia. I conclude by saying that I believe that if Her Majesty's Government approach the problems of the next five years with confidence, with a constructive imagination and with patient energy, this country can still make a decisive contribution to the creation of the international order which all of us, on both sides of the House, desire. We believe that it is our function, as Her Majesty's Opposition, to see that the Government display those qualities. In so far as they do, we shall be sympathetic towards them even where we disagree with them. In so far as they fail to do so, we shall be merciless in our criticism.
    4.8 p.m.
    Mr. Antony Head: The hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) has made a highly controversial maiden speech from the Dispatch Box. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I gather that it was not a maiden speech. I have no doubt that we shall hear many more speeches from him at that Box, all of them from that side of the House. If he will forgive me—I think it is a weakness in debate—I shall not follow him in his speech, because I do not wish to detain the House too long and my remarks will be directed towards a subject with which he did not deal.
    My justification for taking up the time of hon. Members—I know how unpopular people like myself are when they do so—is that the matter about which I wish to speak is, in my belief, the most important that will confront this Parliament during the next four or five years and, perhaps, the most important for the next ten or fifteen years. Moreover, as the subject of a speech, it has the merit that it is hardly ever discussed in the House. The subject I want to bring to the attention of hon. Members is loosely described as that of the backward, dependent and underdeveloped territories.
    I should like to try to say why I believe the problem to be of such importance and so vital for this country in the next five or ten years and for the West as a whole. In order to do so, I should like to try to define what I mean by "the problem". I think that it stems almost entirely from a combination
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    of circumstances, which are these. First, the world today is a much smaller place and we know a great deal about what is going on in all parts of the world. One-third of the world is third or fourth generation rich through the industrial revolution, and it is getting richer. Two-thirds of the world is very poor, some of it abjectly poor, and at the moment, owing to an increasing birthrate, it is standing still.
    Secondly, a very large proportion of the poor two-thirds of the world has recently acquired, or will soon acquire, national independence. Thirdly, we are living in the middle of a scientific and technological revolution, which many of us do not realise—that is to say, the way of getting rich through industrial techniques no longer requires an inherited skill or industrial tradition, but can be applied to what we term backward and slightly educated people, provided the capital, equipment and administrative ability are available.
    Lastly, those responsible for the governing of these countries have seen the example of what Communist Russia has done in 40 years, interrupted by two wars, and what Communist China is doing today. As one more circumstance, quite a large proportion of the two-thirds poor of the world has been in the past under Western domination.
    That combination of circumstances, I believe, poses a question of vast importance, not only for the West but for the future of the world as a whole. Again, I should like to try to make clear why I think that that is so. I think that the question before the West today is this: who is to share in and to give the lead in this industrial and technical revolution which will come to the poorer two-thirds, and what will the world as a whole look like when it has been completed? I believe that it will be completed much quicker than the average hon. Member can conceive. That is the question which is posed to the West.
    In my view, this problem has nothing whatever to do with the cold war. We have invented the term "cold war," and I believe that it has led to a lot of misunderstanding in this House. We use it in relation to anything from the war in Korea to propaganda in the Yemen. However, I believe that essentially this is not a cold war. It is a

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    struggle or ideologies and the methods or applying a new industrial technique. That is the problem, and it is not the task of the West to embark on this major problem with the solely negative aim of stopping the backward countries going Communist.
    In attempting to deal with this very large problem as briefly as I can, I would say that I am by no means an expert, but at the same time I would claim for myself that my remarks are not entirely superficial, for since I have been on the back benches I have been both to Africa and to Asia. I have read a great deal of diffuse and turgid Communist literature, and I have discussed this problem with some highly intelligent men. In trying to analyse the problem as briefly as I can, I should first like to consider Communist Russia's policy and approach to the problem. Of course, China is also a big factor, but I do not want to make my remarks too complicated, I will therefore confine myself to Communist Russia.
    I am strongly in favour of Summit conversations, and I believe that they may well lead to an easing of tension, but it is very delusory for the House or any hon. Member to think that by Summit talks we will cut out the central dynamic of Communism, which is that the world will be a good place only when it is a Communist world. It would be just as illusory if Mr. Khrushchev went to a Summit Conference thinking that he would eliminate the Christian ethic from the West.
    Mr. Bevan: We are doing that on our own very effectively.
    Mr. Head: That is something which is outside my immediate argument. I could argue it very strongly.
    If one believes in Communism, if it is the central theme of one's belief that the world will be a proper place for humans to live in only when it is a Communist world, if one makes financial, technical and educational efforts to win the backward peoples, that is not a hostile or basically wicked act; it is merely an expression of an ideology backed by one's efforts in terms of money and men.
    The Russians have been extremely explicit about their policy with regard
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    to the backward territories. They share that habit with Hitler, who wrote Mein Kampf, which hardly anyone read until the war was over and then said, "What an extraordinary thing. He told us exactly what he was going to do." The Russians, although not so concisely as Hitler, have written a great deal about this subject in very turgid literature, much of it very diffuse, and with the help of friends I have digested a certain amount of it. I should like to attempt briefly to analyse Russian grand policy with regard to these countries.
    The first thing that is important is that one of the central tenets of the Communist faith has been cut out, namely, the old Lenin dictum of the inevitability of an armed conflict with the West. That seems to be logical and sensible, and any country which thinks that anything but disaster will come from that is crazy. What now takes first place, the inevitability of the armed conflict being cut out, is that the way for Communism to overthrow the West is by an alliance with the revolutionary tendencies in the backward and dependent territories. That is now the first priority.
    How does the Communist world visualise this primary aim being fulfilled? I think it is fair to simplify it by saying that it is this: by propaganda, educational, technical and capital aid, and by trade and economic means, they will gradually gain the political and economic affiliation of the two-thirds poor of the world, and as they get richer and their standards go up, and as the Russian and Chinese economies get stronger, by controlling vast quantities of raw materials on which the West is highly dependent, they will be able to control the arteries of trade and raw materials in a way which would gradually weaken and finally bring about the destruction of the Western economy. That, I am convinced, is what Field Marshal Montgomery would call "the master plan" so far as Soviet designs are concerned for making the world a Communist world. It is no good our regarding it as a hostile act or as the cold war. It is an act of ideology which combines helping people who are now in a state of great poverty with a bid for their leadership and domination.
    If I am not boring the House, and in order to attempt to explain the thoroughness of the co-ordination and the prac-
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    ticability with which this plan is being pursued, I should like to give a few examples of what Russia is now doing to implement their central design. If hon. Members were now in Moscow and were allowed to go into a certain building—as they would not be allowed to do—they would find hundreds of men and women bending over their desks and tabulating and listening to obscure African languages and turning them into Russo-African dictionaries. They would find other men and women studying the economic, agricultural, social, tribal and religious beliefs of many obscure African tribes.
    Elsewhere in another building they would find many technicians, engineers, nominees to trade missions and future ambassadors undergoing courses and learning those languages, those religious beliefs and studying the agricultural problems. Nor does it stop at teaching Russians. Throughout Russia today, as hon. Members probably know, there is an increasing flow of students.
    When I first went to Africa, it was said that Africa was not the aim of any considerable Soviet Communist pressure. But from Africa alone there is a vast flow of students into Eastern Europe and Russia One can find African students studying in Moscow, Prague, East Germany, Rumania, Bulgaria and China. They go there for five-year courses, practically all of them taking technical subjects, all with ideology thrown in. They all go on special terms, getting more pocket money than the Czechs do—which annoys the Czechs very much. I am not saying that that always succeeds, but many of those students return to Africa convinced of the Communist ideology.
    There are 3,000 such students in Prague alone. It is not easy to analyse numbers, but there is no doubt that the numbers are large and getting larger. The students come not only from Africa, but from the Middle East and South-East Asia as well. In Poland, for instance, there are students from the Sudan, Togo-land, Uganda, Nigeria, Jordan, Tunisia, Egypt and Algeria.
    I am saying this only to underline the fact that this is not a sudden move by the Russians. It is the result of long-term planning for the technical education which is the primary need of those
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    countries. The students have been prepared for the courses and teachers have been prepared for the students.
    What is even more important, as can be found by talking to these people, is that they do not particularly want to go to Russia. Many of these countries are frightened about Communist indoctrination of these young men. Many of the countries would far rather send students to the West, but our preliminary requirements before a student can go to Western technical schools are such that these students cannot fulfil them. In Russia, on the other hand, there are local arrangements for teaching Russian and the necessary preliminary knowledge in the student's own country before he arrives.
    I know that there are very many students from those countries in this country, but I believe that our educational requirements for the students from backward territories are more a matter of fitting those students into the existing structure than thinking out what is the structure which should be provided for giving them educational facilities. I am certain that if there were more attainable vacancies in the West, not merely in this country, they would be filled to overflowing.
    There is another aspect of education to which I want to refer, namely, books. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is on the Front Bench. I congratulate him on having got money out of the Treasury for the provision of 2 million subsidised books a year for all these backward and dependent areas. However, let us take the example of India alone. Four million Russian and 2 million Chinese subsidised books go into India every year, which makes the 2 million of my right hon. Friend look rather small.
    There are now more literate Africans than there were. There are cheap, paper-backed, subsidised books which are printed in Moscow and which are about obscure folk tales of the Bantu and other tribes, printed in those obscure languages so that those people are very pleased to read them and very flattered, so pleased that they probably read the introduction which is a convincing dissertation on the joys and achievements of life in Soviet Russia.

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    A great deal of trouble is being taken about these books.
    "Soviet Land" is a magazine which is published all over India. It is well produced and published in English, Hindi and ten other Indian languages. I am quoting these examples to show what these people are up to. We cannot say that it is wicked, for the Russians believe in their cause and are in many respects trying to help these people.
    Another aspect is that of embassy staffs—and I make these comments particularly to the Foreign Secretary. Russian embassy staffs, trade missions and technicians are all made to learn the language concerned before going to a foreign country. Some hon. Members may have read a book called "The Angry American". It may be overdrawn, but there is a grain of truth in it.
    It is no good the West thinking that we will buy ourselves out of this problem, because money badly administered, without understanding or knowledge of the language, is no good. Russian embassy staffs are trained in the language concerned. In the last five years, their numbers have more than doubled. The Russians have seen that technicians are one of the critical factors in this matter. The Russians have discovered that if a good man who is a technician and who knows his stuff ideologically can stay on the job in a country for five years, he is not merely a technician but an ambassador, an evangelist and an intelligence agent.
    I will give the House an instance of the trouble taken about this matter, again taking the case of India. To get the matter into proportion, today India takes 7 per cent. of her imports from Russia—not very much. Of its total foreign aid, 17 per cent. is from Russia—not very much. But of all the foreign technicians in that country, 51 per cent. are Russian. That is a significant figure. I do not wish to be controversial, but I doubt whether hon. Members knew that figure, a figure which we should bear in mind.
    Mr. Harold Davies: Where does it come from?
    Mr. Head: It is not a bogus figure. I owe it to the courtesy of the Foreign Secretary who allowed me to get in touch with some of the people who study this matter. It is significant.
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    There is another instance which may bring some comfort to hon. Members, that of capital. Russian finance compared with that provided by the West is very small. The Soviet credit scheme started in 1954 and the total amount spent since then is 200 million dollars, an average of 40 million dollars a year. Last year alone, America spent 1,500 million dollars. Hon. Members may now feel better, but every dollar of that Russian money is "propaganda-ed up to the whiskers". Everybody knows where the money has gone and how it has been spent. It is administered by men who know the language and it is applied strategically—not in the military, but in the political and economic sense. It is applied in such a way that it is paid back by trade—and Russia knows well that the flag is apt to follow trade. It is applied in a way in which the long-term return will be to the political and economic advantage of Russia.
    Ninety per cent. of this aid has gone to India, Indonesia, Egypt, Syria and Afghanistan. If hon. Members who know about this sat down and made out a list, I do not think it would be very different from that. I am saying that the money is small in volume, but it is extremely well placed. I will leave now what Russia is doing, except to say that here is a carefully thought out, vigorously executed, long-term scheme which knows what it is trying to do and which has the men to administer it on the ground.
    Now may I for a moment turn to the West? I am sure that the Minister of State will tell me, if he does me the honour of mentioning this when he comes to reply, that we are doing a great deal. Of course, we are doing a great deal. There is the Colombo Plan, the World Bank, American aid and the Colonial Development Corporation. Of course, there is a great deal being done. But the first point that I would make about the West's effort is that most of what is being done is money and very little of what is being done is done by qualified men.
    Money, especially badly administered money, can be almost worse than no money. If we pour money into a backward and perhaps corrupt administration and it is used for every single reason except for the purposes for which it is

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    intended, it brings into ridicule the country that gives it. As I say, we produce a great deal of money and the West has made a great effort. But leaving out anything further for the moment, if we look at, say, N.A.T.O. we have discussed and had conferences and got together and we are always talking about the joint defence effort of N.A.T.O. If we look at the whole of this business of the backward countries, which I think is the most important single question that confronts us today, the West is in really serious disarray.
    Can any hon. Member tell me about any conference with the United States, the major partner, and us with perhaps more "know-how" and knowledge of these countries than any other nation? Have we really thought it over carefully and given advice and concerted our views? I think that our plans in this repect are not only unco-ordinated but still retain a good deal of the anti-colonialist suspicions of the United States and a good deal of what I would call the disgruntled ex-boss attitude.
    We have to realise that on our conduct, our attitude and our aid to this two-thirds of the world the future of Western civilisation may well depend. I put it as high as that. There may be hon. Members who do not agree, but I have never been more convinced of anything than I am about this. What should we do? It is very easy to stand up in the House of Commons and criticise, and I always think it obligatory to try to give some view about what one should do. The first thing we must realise is that inevitably and always, whether it is humiliating or not, America is the senior and always will be the senior partner in this.
    The first thing I believe is that the West should get together. Germany has a great deal of capital. Germany is interested in this problem. There is no doubt that in the field of private enterprise there is a great deal in Europe on which we can get together, but there is at the moment little or no co-ordination. Short-term loans voted annually, as in 1956, are no good for long-term projects. Badly administered schemes can be a handicap. The World Bank and that splendid man, Mr. Eugene Black, cannot do it alone because we also need
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    men—we must have technicians and we must have an administration. How can we get men if the countries of the West know little or nothing about it? What do the British public know about this problem? What right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench has made an important speech on this problem? I do not wish to be controversial when I say frankly that I do not believe any hon. Member opposite has either.
    Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: We have on these benches. We have initiated two large debates on this question this year, which the right hon. Gentleman did not attend, in which, in fact, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Economic Secretary took part.
    Mr. Head: I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman. I knew he initiated a debate. I did not attend, but I read the debate and I had made a rather lengthy speech on this same subject in the defence debate just before. We do not want to score points off one another. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] All I am trying to say is that, whatever the right hon. Gentleman or anybody else has done, the fact remains that the British public knows very little about this question. I am absolutely certain of that, because I have made many speeches about it in my own constituency and the public tend to look upon me as an amiable eccentric on this subject. People would know a lot more if a lead were given by this Government and by all Governments about the vital importance of this problem.
    The West as a whole should overhaul the whole of the educational approach. I know that if the Minister of Education were here he would say: "Goodness me, we can hardly educate our own people." But this matter is vital, and I do not believe that we have studied it, especially the West as a whole, in terms of what we have to do to help these people.
    If we are to do what we should aim to do in this matter, the scheme should be administered and evolved not by people with a national flag as a waistcoat, but by the West as a whole. It should not be a national affair. It should be of the West. There has been talk recently that Russia may share in this scheme. I would not entirely close my mind to it,

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    except to say that, with the violent anti-imperialist propaganda going on at the moment in the Far East, I do not see how it can happen. It should not be British aid, French aid or American aid; it should be Western aid.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Can the right hon. Gentleman be more explicit on this subject of why he thinks it necessary for the Western world to coordinate this material? Does he think that the volume or quality of scientific educational material would be increased by the conjunction of the Western Powers?
    Mr. Head: I am glad my hon. Friend asked that question. Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I think that the present scheme of the West, which has done much, especially financially, to help these countries is unco-ordinated, patchy and often conflicting. To take Kenya as a concrete example, if we say that it is our aim to give an increasing share to the people of Kenya in administration and government as soon as they are capable of it, if that is to have any weight, we must have a scheme both for education and administration. Hon. Members may say that we do; but we do not have enough. I know that Kenya could do with more money, but if the Treasury cannot afford it, why should not some of the money come from the U.S.A.? If Kenya had 6 million for education, it would be a great help. In fact, as I said in my last speech, I would rather have a good education scheme in Kenya than a Bluestreak.
    What I am trying to get at—I may not have made the point clear to the noble Lord—is that this business of helping these countries must be a coordinated effort of the West—rather like N.A.T.O.—rather than a haphazard series of individual efforts without coordination.
    How much have we discussed it with the United States? Very little. How much have we got a co-ordinated plan? Very little. Take our domestic position. If the noble Lord will think about that for a moment, who here is responsible? When I came back from Asia I thought I would go to see people about this. But who to go to? Who had responsibility? The Colonial Secretary?—a
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    bit. The Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations?—a bit. The Foreign Secretary?—a bit. The Treasury?—a bit.
    Suppose this House were to rise in its wrath and say, "The British effort and our approach to the problem is disgraceful." Whose fault is it? [An HON. MEMBER: The Government's.] Of course it is the Government's, but suppose we were to say that we must have discussions about this problem with America, then who knows about it? Each Minister in this country is busy with his own problems. How much time can the Foreign Secretary spend from the pressure of his work to think of this problem? How much time can the Colonial Secretary spend? It is a vast problem, an elaborate problem, a complicated problem. I should like to know, if and when a reply comes, who is the Minister looking after this and how does he coordinate his work with that of other Departments, the Commonwealth Relations Office and the Foreign Office.
    I am not trying to bully the Government, but from my own experience I would say that the problem has been insufficiently studied and that the British public are barely aware of it. I appeal to both sides of the House and to the Front Bench about this. I am convinced that this problem is the challenge of our time. I am convinced that this plan of the Russians is the way they think that Western civilisation will gradually be overthrown without war. I believe that the response of the West has been inadequate.
    I think the danger for this Government and this House is that, having had one election in which we said, "You have never had it so good," the temptation is to concentrate on material prosperity so that when we come to the next election we may say, "You have got it even better." America has pushed material well-being further than any other country in the world. She consumes more tranquillisers than any other country in the world. I do not believe that the pursuit of material well-being is enough for Western civilisation or will keep it in good health. I say to both sides of the House and to the Front Bench, in particular, that this is the challenge of our time. Let us meet it.
    4.43 p.m.
    Mr. George Brown: I rise, I hope for the best reason of all, not because I have a speech in my pocket, but just because of the last speech. I have now heard it twice. I want to tell the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head), speaking entirely for myself, that I find it offensive to go on making that speech from that bench, considering that he was Minister of Defence and, before that, Secretary of State for War and had more personal responsibility than almost any other man for letting the West down and giving the Communists the advance.
    Mr. Head Mr. Head rose—
    Mr. Brown: I have hardly begun.
    Mr. Head: I know, but I can see where the right hon. Gentleman is beginning. If he intends to be controversial—and I must confess I rather hoped this debate would not be controversial—I will say this right at the start, that I think, and have thought in the past, that because of the violation of an international treaty, because we fought a war, and for every reason, our intervention at the time of Suez was right; and I rather regret we stopped. I have not changed my mind one iota, but that does not affect my feelings about those people, because, in my opinion, the two matters are entirely different.
    Mr. Brown: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman now says he thinks that, because it disqualifies almost everything that he said before. It is because he thought that, and because he did that, that he now, unless he is challenged, pre tends that he is now different—
    Mr. Head: I have just said that I was not.
    Mr. Brown: I listened in silence to the right hon. Gentleman. I ask him to listen in return.
    The right hon. Gentleman now goes on attacking Ministers who sit there on the Treasury Bench. I do not like them either, but then, at the last General Election, I fought them. At the General Election the right hon. Gentleman sheltered under their umbrella. He now pretends for the second time that he has now seen a great light on the road to Damascus, he now sees how to appeal
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    to those people in the East. He sees the Russians' master plan. He lectures to us about it. Goodness gracious me, we knew a long time ago. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I told Khrushchev. Now I am telling those hon. Gentlemen opposite me, and I hope that somebody on that side of the House will listen.
    This idea on the other side of the House that this is something one discovers when one is sacked from office, and is short of something else to do, really will not do. It is a matter of political philosophy and the Opposition fought the election on this. We undertook to provide 1 per cent. of the national product every year for the benefit of these people. [Interruption.]
    Mr. William Ross: What did the Tories promise?
    Mr. Brown: I wish hon. Members opposite would listen. They do not understand. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carshalton was attacking them. I am now answering the attack which he made upon them.
    We undertook to provide 1 per cent. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not more?"] Right hon. Gentlemen opposite, including the right hon. Gentleman himself, as well as the smaller men opposite me, who interrupt an argument they do not understand, told their constituents, "You have never had it so good"—as the right hon. Gentleman has just said— "Do not let the Labour men in, because they will do the adventurous things like providing 1 per cent. of the national product for the development of the overseas territories and that may mean"—so said the right hon. Gentleman, as well as the pigmies opposite me—"that you may not have it so good."
    The right hon. Gentleman, having ridden on the tide of not doing these things, now adopts the "Pull up the ladder, Jack, I'm all right" philosophy and comes here today to present, with all the appearance of a great cross-bencher, an argument which cannot be sustained by anything that either he or his party said in the election.
    Mr. Head: In the interests of accuracy the right hon. Gentleman should take note—he may not be aware of the fact—that this matter was in the party manifesto and was specifically mentioned. He has not said a word about

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    that. Part of my speech was on this, that this is not entirely a matter of money. Maybe he did listen to what I said. I said that this is a matter of co-ordination of approach. Anyway, it is in the party manifesto. It will not do for him to talk as though his party is the only one interested in these things. It is wrong of him to do so. Personally, I am sorry that he has seen fit to talk about this as though he were quarrelling on a party point. This is bigger than a party point, and it is bigger than the right hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Brown: So far, the right hon. Gentleman has made three speeches. I shall not give way to him any more. What he has said is ridiculous. This is not bigger than a party point. Everything is a party point. It is as big as a party will make it. If the party will do it, it is big. If an hon. Member talks big knowing that his party will not do it, it is very small. It is no bigger because of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman is sitting on the back benches, with no responsibility, and because he can talk in this way knowing very well that when he was in office he never even had a glimpse of this policy. He knows very well that none of his right hon. and hon. Friends will do it now. That does not make it big. It makes it sententious and even more offensive. It is big only in so far as any of us will pledge our political futures to doing it.
    I beg the right hon. Gentleman to do me the honour of trying to understand this point. There are few hon. Members in the House who disagree with their own party more often than I do. It is true that I become heated about party matters. I become heated by the attitude that if one has no responsibility one is thereby free to talk very big, and to lecture everybody else; and that somehow this makes one more distinguished than those who are carrying responsibility.
    The only reason that I make what the right hon. Gentleman is pleased to call a party point is that we went to the country and said that we should devote 1 per cent. of the national production to this purpose. We were asked, "Does that mean that you will tax us more?" We tried to answer that, and in the end
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    we lost the General Election. But that does not entitle the right hon. Gentleman, who gained by it, to come here and to argue in favour of our policy. It is not in the House, after the election, that he should tell people that if we are to meet the Communist offensive in the world, they must make a contribution. It is at an election that he should tell them that some resources have to be directed to that purpose.
    I am delighted that the right hon. Gentleman now sees the light, but I beg him to understand that he must make clear outside the House what is involved. He says that we have a duty. It is not a duty simply to provide books. When it came to dealing with this situation which he has suddenly understood—that the Russians were appealing to the unfed because of their economic needs and shortages—what did the right hon. Gentleman say was the answer? He said, "We must buy more books and give them more broadcasts". About what? It is no use unless we have something about which we can broadcast. The Government which cut our contribution to S.U.N.F.E.D., and which reduced all our international contributions, is not the Government to make more radio broadcasts and to issue more books.
    Sir Alexander Spearman Sir Alexander Spearman (Scarborough and Whitby) rose—
    Mr. Brown: I will not give way again.
    I believe that the Russians have not given the aid of which they have boasted. The point is that because we have not done so, we have been unable to take advantage of that fact. I well remember talking to Colonel Nasser, in Egypt, about aid to the Middle East and saying to him, "Do you not understand what the Russians are doing?" He replied, "My dear Mr. Brown, you do not understand. The great difference between the Russians and you is that neither of you give me aid, but when they promise it they do not tie strings to it."
    Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Brown: Let me develop my argument. Hon. Members can give their answers later.
    The great difference is that whenever we move into this field we do it in a most limited way. We tie strings to it. The right hon. Gentleman was a member

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    of the Government which, with the Americans, got themselves into a terrible jam in respect of the Aswan Dam. That was because we tried to tie strings to the aid which we were offering. We then chiselled out of it and did not give the aid. This led to many of our subsequent troubles, including the mess which the right hon. Member made in Suez, through getting into the war—which was wrong—and being unable militarily to conduct it. This will be well dealt with in history books, and that is why I feel strongly about the right hon. Gentleman.
    We give the most limited amount of aid. We will not devote the necessary resources to it. We will not distinguish it from political strings and we get ourselves into a position in which the Russians, who do not provide the aid, are able to claim that they are just as good as we are because our record beside theirs looks so ridiculous that it gives them a propaganda victory.
    Of course, the under-privileged overseas merit all our good wishes. They merit all our practical help. If we are the Christians and the democrats and the disinterested people we claim to be, then we ought to give them this aid in full measure, but we cannot do that and, at the same time, promise people at home that they will have more and more and more and that nothing will be taken away from them. We cannot be for the under-privileged overseas and against the under-privileged at home.
    The recent election was exactly about this. I do not mind that we have been defeated. I do not mind being defeated on this argument. I think that the right hon. Gentleman has brought out more clearly than anyone else could have done what I regard to be the difference between the Conservatives and the Labour Party. If necessary, I will go on being defeated about this, but I will never make a sententious speech in the House of Commons after I have won an election on the wrong policy, as he has done.
    We should recognise that there are under-privileged people all over the world, including at home. We should recognise the great political issue of the difference between us and the Russians in the Middle East. What is important about the future at home is the establishment of the right priorities—priorities in distribution, in social benefits and in
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    the raising of production. The right hon. Gentleman has shown his priorities, but they could not possibly fit his speech. He will not be able to make a reality of that speech until he faces the priorities.
    The day on which he is willing to vote for aid, with no strings attached, to the fellaheen of Egypt and the Arab countries, aid with no strings attached to the Arabs of Africa, and aid with no strings attached to the Indians; the day on which he is prepared to deny what the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) once said about giving our things away to the Indians; on that day he will earn my respect, but he will also be willing, on that day, to vote for increases in the old-age pension and a notable increase in expenditure on education and the other great needs of this country.
    This is a party matter. It is exactly on these issues that we have parties. This is exactly what we fought the election about. I say to him, do not lecture us on great principles, every one of which was denied in his party's speeches in the election.
    5.0 p.m.
    Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke: The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown) has delivered an attack on my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) in connection with this election. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman this. He has made a very altruistic speech on how we must have more aid for the unfortunates at home and more aid for the unfortunates abroad. How does he square that with his party's election pledge not to increase taxation at home, not to increase P.A.Y.E., to abolish Purchase Tax, to reduce Entertainments Duty and all the rest of it? How can the right hon. Gentleman possibly come here and expect us to believe that he, if he ever got back to power, would do that; if he is not prepared to pay the price? This is so much hypocrisy—much greater hypocrisy than my right hon. Friend has ever been guilty of.
    Mr. Osborne: Give way for him to answer.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: The right hon. Gentleman does not want to answer.
    Mr. G. Brown: I would answer the hon. and learned Gentleman by saying that we would organise the industrial life of this country—
    Mr. Osborne: Like the coal mines.
    Mr. Brown: I did not rise because I did not want to interrupt the hon. and learned Gentleman. I am saying that we pointed out that we could do all this if we were prepared to organise whole industries, use the powers of State planning and State direction in order to get an annual rate of increase in the national production as high as that which we had when we last had a Labour Government.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: We all have our own views about how much extra aid that would provide for the fellaheen in Egypt and the Arabs in the Yemen.
    May I now get away from this unruly struggle between Privy Councillors in which a humble back bencher scarcely dares to intervene, though if this is to be the freedom for back benchers it will be a strange Parliament indeed. I am not sure that the iron rule of the Treasury Bench and Opposition Front Bench freedom is not to be preferred.
    I should like to get back to the subject of the debate, which is foreign affairs, and to discuss, in particular, something which neither my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary nor the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) mentioned, though we were promised that the right hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker) would deal with it when he wound up for the Opposition; namely, the problem of Asia.
    I noticed that the hon. Member for Leeds, East made his usual reference to Western imperialism in Asia. At the same time, in a rather strange but interesting way, he said that he thought the established Powers—in which he included the Soviet Union and the big Powers of the West—should get together in something like the old Holy Alliance of Metternich and the Czar to produce stability, and to keep the new and uprising nations in their place.
    So far as Western imperialism in Asia is concerned, I wonder whether, in his forward-looking way, he has appreciated that the only part of Asia—or the only
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    material areas of Asia—in which white men now rule coloured men are parts ruled by the Russians. The only parts of Asia where white men rule coloured men in any large areas are parts of the Russian empire. It seems to me, therefore, that it is out-of-date to talk of this strange complaint that if only we were to get rid of our yoke of imperialism, we could make ourselves much more popular, because, in fact, the only remaining vestige of imperialism—and it is a very large one—is not one of the West but of the Soviet Union. I think it is against that background that we should examine what appears to be the most important development since last we had a foreign affairs debate, which is the incredible decline in the prestige of China.
    If one remembers two years ago the immense influence of Communist China at the Bandoeng Afro-Asian Conference, when the Afro-Asians were charmed by Mr. Chou-en-Lai, and contrast that with the regard for Communist China in Asia today, we see that the decline is amazing. I should like to dwell on that, because it is interesting to discover why that has happened.
    In the first place, I think that undoubtedly the defeat of Communist China in her attempt to capture the offshore islands has played a very important part. It was a failure of prestige which ran through the whole of South-East Asia, and it was only equalled by the success of Communist China in rubbing out all traces of independence in Tibet a year later. These two actions taken together have undoubtedly produced something which I do not suppose anybody in this House could have imagined would ever have occurred; namely, that a country like Malaya, an independent Asian country, should take the lead at the United Nations to try to get Communist China arraigned for her misdeeds in Tibet.
    This is an amazing reversal of approach to Communist China in the last year or so, and one wonders whether the leaders of Communist China, in their attack on Tibet, and even more in their attack on India, have not in some way got a folie de grandeur. Why should they do this when they had Asia very much at their feet, and when now they have managed, not through any good management on the part of the West but by bad

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    management on their own part, to alienate all the countries of South-East Asia, which were otherwise apt to look with favour upon Peking? What can be the motive for that? Is it because of internal strength, or is it because of internal weakness? It is most important that we should discover, because if it is, as I suggest, the most important change in the international situation that has occurred in the last eighteen months, we should discover why it has happened.
    In the first place, it is the reaction of a country which has had a military failure. If a new country has had a military failure, as Communist China had at Quemoy and Matsu in August, 1958, for the sake of prestige she is bound to win a military success somewhere else, if only at the expense of some relatively weak and friendly nation, such as India. It is not much of an encouragement for the people of the world to try to co-exist with Communist China if the very people who have spoken the softest words, who have gone out of their way to sponsor Communist China's case, are the very ones to be invaded, which indeed is what has happened in India, where I think that something like 60,000 square miles of Indian territory, if not more, is at present in Chinese occupation, and where even the Communists of India are more incensed than the Prime Minister of India at this situation.
    What is the motive for that? I suggest to the House—though I would willingly hear some other suggestions from those among hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite who have special knowledge of Communist China, as I know many of them have—what can be the motive, at this stage, for the invasion of India except to try to regain some of the prestige lost in August, 1958, when Communist China failed to take the offshore islands, or, alternatively, as an attempt to divert attention at home from the abject failure of the commune programme.
    One could understand it if she had turned her attention once again to Formosa. One could understand it if she had turned her attention again to Korea, both areas hostile to Communist China; but to turn her attention to India, her great friend at the United Nations, her great sponsor; to invade that country which has spoken nothing but soft words
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    to her, must surely mean that there is something very wrong internally in China, and for which she needs an easy foreign diversion to escape attention.
    I think, and indeed the reports suggest, that what has happened in China is that the commune system, which is far more violent in its collectivisation than anything the Russians have attempted; which seeks to collectivise not merely the products of the soil but the consumption of those products in the villages, by which not even the separate hearth is allowed to the family but all the stoves are destroyed and everybody has to eat centrally and communally; that this violent onslaught on the family which is, after all, the strongest element in Chinese life, is failing in famine and disaster and that, in the way of all dictatorships, the only way to divert attention from this ghastly failure is by a foreign adventure.
    What can China hope to get from this invasion of India? If anyone could tell us that, then I think they would find the clue to those elements mentioned by the hon. Member for Leeds, East in the early part of his speech, namely, the extraordinary turmoil in which Asia finds herself; a turmoil far more important in many ways than the European scene, which has become fairly stereotyped in the last two or three years, where the issues are clear and the parties are clear, and where the room for manœuvre, in a sense, is getting slightly greater, but where there is not much question of a dramatic change. In central Asia, however, with this extraordinary invasion of India by China, it seems to me that the whole issue of Communism in the world has been brought into very sharp relief, and my contribution today is really to ask those hon. Gentlemen opposite who, as I say, are the experts in this matter, to tell us what their explanation is of this unprovoked and, as far as one can make out, fairly sudden attack on large parts of what is obviously India; what the motives for it are, how far it is going, and what kind of outcome they expect from the most extraordinarily irresponsible, dangerous and wicked adventure we have seen for many years.
    5.38 p.m.
    Mr. Harold Davies: I have listened with interest to the speech made by the hon. and learned Gentleman the

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    Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke), and the acrobatics of his thinking are equal to the change of his party. I wonder if he would have spoken in that way as a member of the National Conference of the Labour Party?
    Let us take his absurdities. The first absurdity the hon. and learned Gentleman uttered—he was speaking so softly that some hon. Members may have missed it, but I did not—was that the only remaining vestige of imperialism in the world is the Soviet Union. Has he heard of Hola Hola? Has he heard of Kenya?
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: I said in Asia.
    Mr. Harold Davies: The hon. and learned Gentleman said Asia at the beginning but finished this sentence without adding Asia. I took it down as he said it. If he looks up HANSARD tomorrow he will find I am right on that sentence. What was he trying to prove?
    He then uttered another absurdity. Did he want China at Matsu and Quemoy to plunge the world into World War III? I was in the United States at that moment and I had to broadcast after Madame Chiang Kai-Shek in New York at eight o'clock one morning, when she urged the Americans to drop the atom bomb on the mainland of China. British people and the would can be grateful that the Chinese People's Republic withheld its firing power over the islands of Quemoy and Matsu.
    What absurdity is the hon. and learned Gentleman coming down to the House to utter? Did he want China to plunge us into a third world war? Was he following the shadow of Dulles? Because the Dulles policy in the Straits of Taiwan was one of the most dangerous policies of that time? Obviously the hon. and learned Gentleman tried to twist the truth in a sanctimonious, quiet manner in order to make the House think he was uttering something worth listening to. The real truth is that the world can be grateful that the Chinese People's Republic did not plunge us into a third world war over the incidents in the straits near Quemoy and Matsu. Basically the American people were grateful too, because they want peace as much as the Russian people do if their voices can get through to the international conferences.
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    Now the Indian situation. The hon. and learned Gentleman seems to assume that the international authorities of the world are already agreed on the Sino-Indian frontier line. There was an incident on 20th October, 1959. There was another incident on 21st October south of the Kongka Pass, which is a small corner jutting into Tibet. Yet the last peace treaty that was made, the last written document about this area, was in 1842 between the States of Kashmir and the southern States of Tibet. The Sinkiang high road and railway to Tibet that the Chinese have been building these last five or six years has been going through that territory, therefore the Indians and the rest of the world knew about it, and there were no incidents on that frontier. The truth and the tragedy of this position is that owing to the stupidity and the stubborness of the party opposite in not taking a lead to initiate the entrance of the Chinese People's Republic into the United Nations, we now find ourselves without any negotiating machine where we can modify this tendency and the difference about the Sino-Indian frontier, and in the Gracious Speech there is nothing about this important part of the world.
    The House should realise that the one country in Asia with which we have diplomatic relations and the one country in the Far East where we could use our ambassador or chargé d'affaires in Peking is the one country where this Government, through all the differences in Laos, all the differences in India, all the differences in Quemoy and Matsu last year, has made no move. In fact, the Government dwell in a fool's paradise.
    If any Member on any side of the House is of the opinion that there will be a division between Soviet Russia and China and that we can follow the ancient and old-fashioned rule of imperialism, divide and rule, as we did in India, as regards these two great nations, then there is a great rethink coming to the whole of the Western world. The linking of the great Soviet peoples and the Chinese peoples is a fact of world history and, whether the House likes it or whether mankind likes it, it is the fact that through the stupidity of Western man and through the American policy of stopping East-West trade, the majority of Chinese

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    trade today is linked to the technology and the efficiency of the U.S.S.R.
    So called erudite magazines write about the incapability of Russia. I remember the magazine Fortune, glossy and bizarre, coming out a week before the U.S.S.R. put its Sputnik in the sky. It stated that Russian technology and science was miles behind that of the Western world. To be fair, there are obviously spheres where it is behind, but there are also obviously spheres where it is miles in advance. Is it not time we stopped this childish business of name-calling? Is it not time that the present Government with their large majority should realise that they must speak for Britain and work for peace in the two great areas of the under-endowed coloured man in South-East Asia and Central Africa? Unless the party opposite adopts a constructive and peaceful policy for solving these problems there is not the slightest doubt that the Soviet Union will leap into the leadership in those areas.
    The question is often asked why we on this side of the House have not done that. That question could be answered in half a minute. I have been in trouble for years for urging a cut in the armaments programme. We are often asked the elementary question, "How would you pay for this and that?" There is the natural dynamism and the geometrical progression of an intelligent economy in the modern world, no matter what party is in power. If the Labour Party had been in power in the last five years people would have had as much as they have received under the Tories, if not more.
    Let us face the facts. The Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that the improvement was due to the terms of trade. Unless we are prepared to cut back on armaments and adopt a new approach to N.A.T.O. we shall never achieve these ends. At present, we are adopting a childish approach to N.A.T.O., that of trying to build up armaments. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) said in 1957, we cannot use threats to commit national suicide either as a method of negotiation or as a weapon of defence.
    Unless we can get a completely new approach to the defence policy and unless we as a small country can cut
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    back on armaments expenditure there is no doubt that the leadership of the Oriental man or of the Asian man will be taken over by the Soviet Union. The first organisation in Europe which must be improved is the narrow, wobbly setup of N.A.T.O.
    I want for two or three minutes to talk about S.E.A.T.O. and Laos. Twice in the last few years I have been in Laos. In May and June of this year I urged the Foreign Secretary to look into the problem of international political power intrigue which was taking place in Laos. Here we have a typical example of aid going to the unendowed Oriental man and being used in the wrong way.
    The first question we have to consider is this. After the agreement between Pathet Lao and the Laotian Government, the Pathet Lao group was told that it could have representatives in the Government. I do not want to take up the time of the House by going into that agreement in detail, but hon. Members can take it from me that I am speaking accurately on the matter. That agreement was broken. The International Commission came out of Laos and the Soviet Union asked, as one of the co-chairmen, for the 1954 Geneva Conference to be recalled.
    Here is a constructive point which could be put forward by the British Government. Why cannot the Foreign Secretary as co-chairman co-operate with the Soviet Union in recalling the Geneva Conference? I put down a Question on the matter during the last Parliament. Here is a constructive lead which the British people could take. Let us speak for Britain rather than for the United States of America. Dulles kept away from the Geneva Conference. He only went there as an observer. In this way the British Government could capture the initiative.
    I would not be so unfair or so uncouth as to accuse hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite of not wanting peace. I sincerely believe that they do. I believe that the Prime Minister wants peace as much as the hon. Member for Leek. We do not know how to approach the matter. I only wish that we knew the answer. I sincerely believe that as far as Laos is concerned—and I would like an answer to this tonight—we as co-chairman should co-operate with the

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    Soviet Union and recall the Geneva Conference. In addition, we should invite Vietnam, both North and South, and the Communist Republic of China. That is the only way of reassessing the entire position in the Far East.
    I know that other hon. Members wish to speak in the debate and that is why I am abandoning my notes. New hon. Members will soon learn that we in this House try to help each other if we can and to say what we have to say shortly and succinctly in order to make our point. There is one other thing, however, that I wish to say. Ernest Bevin was the initiator of the Colombo Plan. Let us be fair about this matter. We cannot pass it up. If we are setting ourselves up to be like Sparta and if we are going to be a military nation like Sparta, then, obviously, we shall have to live like Sparta.
    Because so much of the so-called prosperity of Britain and of the United States is based entirely on the armaments machine certain people are afraid of these utterances. This fear is not reflected in the cheap journals, but in the Wall Street journals. They are afraid of the peace dragging on. This is a tragedy of the capitalist world. The only answer is long-term credit and cooperation with both the Soviet Union and Communist China in order to help the Oriental and the African man.
    What is wrong about the Russians believing in their philosophy? They have as much right to propagate it as the missionaries had in the last century. There is nothing underhand or devilish about it. They have had the intelligence to send men into those areas. I have travelled around these parts and I have seen that the men that they send in take the trouble to do their homework. They learn the local language and show the people how to use the material on the spot. That means that a rouble goes proportionately much further than a £ from Britain or a dollar from America. The Russians are not asking the local people to buy material from them, but are teaching them to use the materials of their own country and to use them for the purposes of the local man.
    I was amazed to hear the hon. and learned Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) say that the prestige of
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    the People's Republic of China was low because China did not attack Quemoy and Matsu. The Bandoeng Powers did their best, but the Chinese had enough sense to hold their fire. The duty of the British Government is to see that China takes her rightful place in the United Nations.
    5.28 p.m.
    : I hope the House will forgive me if I do not follow the line of the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies). I wish to say how pleased I am to see that the result of the election has in no way affected the vehemence of the hon. Gentleman's views, the strength of his histrionics or the very lively presentation which he always gives of any subject to the House.
    I propose this afternoon to try to make a very broad speech and to avoid those details which so often take up the time of the House. I propose to speak of the grand design in foreign policy. My justification for taking this somewhat Olympian approach is that the pressure of business upon the Foreign Secretary and his associates is often so great that they are very frequently forced to make decisions to satisfy, as it were, the moment at the cost of any consistency in their long-term policy. How often have we here, on both sides of the House, approved a policy which we knew to be a makeshift and the servant of necessity without any consideration of its ultimate effects?
    It is very easy to criticise Ministers for this, but today they so often have so many calls that it is almost impossible for them, and, indeed, for any Government, not at times to have the direction in which they are working obscured by the demands of unexpected events. But there is no doubt that a country must have certain objectives for which it is unswervingly and consistently working and a policy in relation to which all other events must be considered in the light of the effect which they have upon it.
    At the beginning of this new Parliament, I should like to try to suggest what general scheme our foreign policy should follow. It is, of course, impossible to cast too wide a net and try to deal with every situation in the world. Rather, I would confine myself to what

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    in all probability will be the ultimate conflict, the pressure that will be put upon this country from the Communist world.
    We at this moment are going through one of those periodic moods of optimism. The Summit meeting is hailed by everyone as an E1 Dorado and, dangerously, as an end in itself and it is said that peace is just around the corner. But, like my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head), I can actually see little change in the state of the world, for surely it has been apparent to us for many years that the Russians were not prepared to embark upon a universal nuclear war, and neither have we had from them any signs whatsoever that they are intending to give up the ideological combat for the eventual undermining of our position. It would be, therefore, mere wishful thinking for us to believe that they are going to give up their long-term policy for the establishment of universal Communism which is the basis of their faith and the strength of their appeal.
    At a time when things are going so well, it would be far safer to understand that what we are facing is a totally alien conception of thought which is pursuing, and will continue to pursue, its unchanging objectives. Not to do so would make us guilty of irresponsible innocence in the face of a change of tactics. This is rather a time not for optimism but for thankfulness that we have been granted a chance for preparation.
    It would be most unwise to miss this, for although this country and Europe are at this moment going through a period of really unparalleled prosperity, if one looks a little further one can find little reason for complacency. We are happy now to consider the Middle East at this moment to be in a state of peace, and we all find satisfaction in the fact that the oil flows unhindered, but it is really the peace of Etna in a quiet mood. Only a few weeks ago an attempt was made to murder General Kassem in Bagdad. The throne of Persia hangs in the balance, and the Saudi Arabian peninsula is torn by little wars. It is not an exaggeration to say that the picture is not unlike the situation in the Balkans in 1914, and at any moment
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    a similar spark might set off a similar conflagration.
    We must all view with the greatest concern the fact that the workings of our industry and consequently the standard of living of this country are dependent upon such an area. It is our Achille's heel and the singular danger is that it is apparent to everyone. Nor is this all that need concern us. It is little more than a step from the Middle East to Africa which, now that distance has been conquered, is the southern flank of Europe. This today is the unsettled continent. In the north there is the struggle with France and the problem of the ambitious Nasser. In the centre, there is the whole upsurge of African nationalism, and in the south are all the ingredients of a bitter colour war.
    Are we to imagine that our opponents will take no advantage of such a field of opportunity or, as an hon. Member said earlier, that the idea of Communism will not have an immense emotional appeal to the recently awakened primitive mind? If we were to lull ourselves into complacency here, we should merely examine the size and scope of the embassies established in the new African countries, which are already beginning to seize their opportunity, and take notice of the preparations which they have already begun.
    I do not think that it is too much of an exaggeration to say that the key to whether Europe survives or not is in Africa, for if that continent were to dissolve into Communism or even universal disorder the position of Europe might become so weak that America would once again begin to talk of making another agonising reappraisal. Here I would emphasise something which we are too often inclined to forget—that the threat to Europe is common to every country in it and therefore should be treated as a common problem.
    I make this suggestion with all deference to the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, but should we not try to combine and have a European aid plan for Africa? Would not this be particularly favourably received and have the greatest effect, coming at this very moment when America is reducing her aid? If we could get agreement upon the initiation of such a scheme as this, would it not be the best justification that could be

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    imagined? For the criterion which, I believe, above all others we should aim at is the drawing together of the European countries.
    Here I would digress for a moment. Three years ago the Prime Minister, when Chancellor of the Exchequer, put forward his conception of a Free Trade Area, but then came Suez, and since Suez the aim of our foreign policy has not been to promote this plan, by close association and by a willingness to make certain sacrifices which alone could have given it a chance of working and alone would have allowed us to be accepted into such a community.
    Instead, we have concentrated upon the resumption of a close and uncritical association with America, even at the frequent cost of the sacrifice of our good relations with the European Powers. Let me give an example, because it is easy to make these claims without being exact. Two years ago, we supplied arms to Tunis in order to keep in step with American foreign policy. The arms we supplied were negligible in quantity and were of no material use whatsoever to the Tunisians, but their possible use against the French in Algeria, to which Tunisia was the acknowledged pipeline, set up a wave of bitterness that ran the whole way through France.
    Was an action like that necessary? When the incident was closed and one looked at the debits and credits of it, all we had gained was one flickering, soon-to-be-forgotten smile from the Arab world to weigh against the bitterest possible feeling in France with whom at that very moment we said we were trying to form a closer association. How much wiser it would have been had we tried to comprehend the French position—even if not supporting it, at least not to have opposed it—when our opposition so stultified what were our declared long-term intentions.
    Mr. Julian Snow: I am surprised that the noble Lord is making that point. I happened to be in Tunisia at the time and I took the trouble to find out that that was not so. Since, as the noble Lord has said, that arms supply was of very modest character and for the purposes of maintaining order internally in a newly-fledged State, he is making a bad and
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    incorrect point. On the contrary, I do not think that the French objected to the transaction. I took the trouble to inform myself from French sources also.
    Viscount Lambton: It is difficult to get reliable French sources in Tunisia. I am interested in the hon. Member's observation, but I saw the French papers at the time and the great majority of them were full of criticism.
    One can also wonder whether there has not also been a certain lack of subtlety in our approach. Many people in France have been as deeply concerned as the hon. Member for Lichfield and Tamworth (Mr. Snow), myself and all Members of the House about the conduct of the war in Algeria and the seeming intransigence of French policy, yet by setting ourselves dead against the French position we have lost their good will and sympathy which it would have been to our diplomatic advantage to gain and which we could have gained had we taken a passive line rather than one of blunt incomprehension.
    Mr. E. Fernyhough: A few minutes ago, the noble Lord was talking about our winning Africa. Does he consider that we have helped to win Africa to our side by supporting the French in Algeria?
    Viscount Lambton: I shall be developing that argument later. To answer it now would mean transposing part of my speech. The great thing, however, is to have understanding in Europe which would allow Europe to come together to give aid to Africa. In talking of the lack of subtlety, one might also refer, in this context, to certain remarks which seem to have emanated from authority last spring about the singular obstinacy of Adenauer and how his policy was likely to cause a war, and this similarly put against us those Germans who were themselves worried about the inflexibility of his policy
    A country can afford to criticise and to oppose only when it has the power and authority to bring its conceptions into force. To do so without this authority merely weakens its position and gives opportunity for assertions of interference and weakness. These assertions were made frequently last spring when my

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    right hon. Friend the Prime Minister went to Moscow and both countries declared that he was weakening the unity of Europe.
    I agree with the point made by the hon. Member for Leeds, East, (Mr. Healey) that our present attitude to Europe is rather extraordinary. I am disappointed that the hon. Member is not in his place, because in my opinion his speech was rather extraordinary. He criticised us for calling on the United States of America to mediate. When asked by my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary for what purpose America should mediate, the hon Member replied that he was referring to a Summit Meeting. Is this not hypocritical? The party opposite has long blamed my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for his tardiness in going to the Summit. How could the hon. Member and his hon. Friends, had they now been in power, have a Summit Meeting without American mediation? It would have been perfectly honest for the hon. Member to say that we should not have American mediation at any price, but nothing could be more dubious than his argument of pressing for a policy which ensures mediation and then to blame the Government for doing what the hon. Member himself and his party would have had to have done.
    Mr. John Hynd: In the absence of my hon. Friend, may I say that the noble Lord misunderstands what he said? My hon. Friend was not criticising the fact that America was mediating in this matter. He was criticising the fact that we had got into a position in Europe in which we were on such strained terms with France and Germany that it was now necessary for America to mediate to try to get us out of this position.
    Viscount Lambton: How could one possibly have a Summit Meeting without American mediation?
    What we are doing at this moment is asking America to do something that she does not particularly want to do by making Europe do something that she in turn does not want to do. For the first time, it is almost as if there could be life in Canning's phrase that we are calling into being the new world to balance the old. Is this sensible? Is it
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    far-seeing? We must surely face the fact that while we are so strongly pushing for a Summit Meeting, we are at the same time pushing ourselves away from that close association which alone can give us strength and unity. Therefore, it is no use whatever saying that our first consideration is the return of good relations between England and France and Germany if at the same time we are pressing forward a policy which is profoundly distrusted by the other two.
    In contrast to that, we must consider whether the closest relationship which we have had with America has compensated for the damage that it did to the European idea. I cannot believe that it has. We are no more to America than a poor relation. It is true that we can influence, but we influence from a position of weakness, and there is no necessity for our advice to be taken. Had we instead been able to build ourselves up as the dominant influence in Europe, and had Europe had a common policy, or a common policy in certain directions, we would have been able to influence from a position of strength.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: We are America's base in Europe.
    Viscount Lambton: Apart from that, ideologically we belong to Europe. The very way that America gained her independence has given her a suspicion of our methods of rule and scheme of government which time has not yet killed. The Americans are tied to a way of thought and conduct of government from which they cannot break away and they are committed by time, custom and fate to a distrust of colonial rule. They cannot divorce themselves from a policy which is part of the American attitude, even though many of them would like to do so. Ironically enough, a great number of them would heave a sigh of relief if we in Europe could build ourselves up into a position of unity and economic power which would allow them not always to be the arbiter of decisions in which their hands are tied by the traditions of the past.
    The basic conception which has caused us to practise this singular alienation from a policy which offered so much three years ago has been the magic that is conceived to lie in a Summit Meeting. Suppose, however, that we have a Summit Meeting and that there is at it

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    agreement on the Oder-Neisse line. Would that really ensure the peace of the world? Would it compensate us for the widening breach between France and Germany and ourselves? If there is going to be peace the reason for it will lie in deeper roots and will come from the determination and will of the Russian people alone. I would rather have a united France, Germany and England in Europe than a Summit Meeting that provided a treaty triumph which left us divided.
    I sincerely hope that the late policies which we have had will be changed, and that the most strenuous efforts will be made by us to make the receding dream of a Free Trade Area a reality. I should have thought that we could have done something to make this possible. If we can bring members of our Commonwealth into our association with the seven countries we might help to make it a bloc on a scale that would induce France and Germany to have second thoughts about membership.
    I am certain that this will not be possible unless there is a basic change of approach by this country to France and Germany, an understanding of their position and a discarding of our American "younger brother" rôle.
    In conclusion, I return to the necessity for such a revolutionary policy. We should not be deceived by the present internal prosperity in this country and in much of the Continent, because great forces are building up against us in Europe which threaten the Continent as a whole.
    These are only secondary dangers to America. It is true that we in this country are the last ditch between Communism and America. But it is also true that America itself is not in the ditch. In the eventuality of an ultimate crisis the Americans would not have the same interest in our preservation as we nave. They are 3,000 miles away and many voices would be raised to remind them of that. It cannot be argued that their dependence on Europe is comparable with our own.
    This is the ultimate argument that Britain's, and indeed the Commonwealth's, future lies in the closest association with Europe, an association which need in no adverse way affect the
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    Atlantic Alliance. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Minister will devote themselves to this end in the following year.
    5.53 p.m.
    Mr. K. Zilliacus: I am very glad that I have had the good fortune to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy-Speaker immediately after hearing the speech of the noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton) because he took a wide and long view. That is what I shall try to do, but from a somewhat different point of view. The noble Lord and the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) put their fingers on an essential point. They said that in our relations with the Communist-ruled one-third of the world and the uncommitted nations the emphasis should be on economic, social and ideological issues. It is in those spheres that we have to meet severe competition.
    The Soviet Government have never made any secret of this. When I saw Mr. Khrushchev in Moscow in 1956 he clearly and plainly took the view that the uncommitted nations were a kind of infant school for countries just freed from colonialism and that as they grew up to full statehood and reached social maturity they would go Communist. He has said as much in the General Assembly of the United Nations, during his visit to the United States, and on many other occasions. He said:
    "We shall compete with you ideologically and in social and economic achievements. We do not want to compete with you in arms. We want to get rid of arms because the more we get rid of defence expenditure the more resources and manpower we can plough into our seven-year plan and into our international aid schemes."
    There is no secret about that.
    This point was made by The Times newspaper in its leader on 6th March, 1946, when commenting on the speech made by the right hon. Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) at Fulton. The Times pointed out that this speech was a counsel of despair in that it assumed that the world was irreconcilably divided between Communism and democracy, because the view expressed by the right hon. Gentleman ignored two points of first-rate importance. The first was that there were many forms of

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    government intermediate between Communism and democracy that may be nearer to the requirements of their present state of development of the countries of Eastern Europe, or of the Middle or Far East.
    The second point, said The Times, is that
    "whilst Western democracy and Communism are in many respects opposites, they have much to learn from one another; communism in the working of political institutions and the establishment of individual rights, and Western democracy in the development of economic and social planning."
    The Times then drew this conclusion, which I think has a topical ring today:
    "The ideological warfare between Western democracy and Communism cannot result in an out-and-out victory for either side. The issue will be determined neither by clashes of eloquences nor by clashes of arms, but by the success of the great nations in dealing with the problems of social organisation in the broadest sense which the war has left behind it."
    After trying the alternative policy for some thirteen years we have reached stalemate and deadlock on the basis of balance of power sustained by a race in nuclear weapons. If anything is happening in this situation, it is that the balance of military power is tilting on the side of the Communist bloc, because they are drawing ahead of us in nuclear weapons and are already far ahead of us in manpower and conventional arms. Also, they are overhauling the United States and Western Europe in industrial development. In this chosen field we are not getting anywhere; we are going backwards.
    Let us look at the alternative approach. Oddly enough, I brought with me the OFFICIAL REPORT of 25th February because I was going to refer to the remarkable speech made on that occasion by the right hon. Member for Carshalton. However, I have now heard him reiterating and broadening the point he made then. I hope he will not be embarrassed if I say that I find myself in considerable agreement with him. The essential point was the conclusion that he came to, that we are dealing with an ideological and social challenge and not with a military threat. Where I disagree with the right hon. Gentleman is when he suggests that all that is wanted is co-ordinated Western action in giving economic aid.
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    I do not think I am misrepresenting the right hon. Gentleman, and I believe that the noble Lord's line of reasoning was closely similar, when I say that to their minds this economic aid is a kind of arm of the cold war. It is intended to combat Communism against the background of the division of the world into two camps. The right approach and the right policy would be to seek international co-operation through the machinery and on the basis of the obligations of the United Nations, as part of the liquidation of the cold war.
    That is certainly the line that has been proposed by my own party for the Middle East. It is the line that is laid down in the Charter, and is exemplified by S.U.N.F.E.D. It is only on those lines that we can compete and that the ideologies of both sides will cancel each other out. What will remain is economic and technical aid given on its merits. Those under-developed countries that are in line for economic aid do not want to become the ideological slaves or the political bondsmen of either of the two camps. The one thing they are keen on is the preservation of their national independence.
    But if we are to compete successfully in this field and are to embark on these policies of economic co-operation, in the giving of financial and technical and economic aid to backward countries, internationally through the United Nations, we must realise that we are going to be supporting constructive, modernising forces, which not only stand for national independence, but are also anti-imperialist. We cannot preserve the old order and also go in for a policy of this sort.
    One of the objections to trying to do this on a Western basis is that it would inevitably be administered and run largely by the United States. We have already seen United States aid in action in countries like South Korea, Formosa, Southern Vietnam, and now in Laos. American aid is based on supporting those parties that stand for economic laissez faire. They generally turn out to be reactionary dictators, because there is no democracy in those countries, and without democracy or any social conscience on the part of the rulers of those countries, or any Welfare State, a free

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    enterprise system on the basis of foreign capital assumes very oppressive and corrupt forms.
    The régimes of these countries are pretty forbidding and repulsive ones. So far from Western aid on those terms gaining us any kudos or support in the rest of Asia, it is pointed to as being a rather frightful example. If we go in for policies of this sort we have to be prepared to refrain from treating the forces of anti-colonial nationalism, or the progressive parties in the Middle and Far East, as enemies because they want to change the colonial and social status quo. We have to prepare to deal with the Arab countries on the basis of their acquiring their oil resources themselves, and we should be helping them to do that on a technically efficient basis, by stages, and with proper compensation for Western interests that are dispossessed, and also with provisions for getting the oil on reasonable market terms.
    It is no use digging our toes in and thinking that we can preserve the status quo, because on those lines we shall get beaten in this ideological competition. We cannot afford to be always on the side of reaction and social backwardness in those countries, however much money we want to put into them. That is why I am exceedingly sceptical of anything good in that way coming under the present dispensation in this country. However much good will there is—and I admit that there is good will and a very genuine desire for peace; there is no difference between the two sides of the House in that respect—speaking quite bluntly, my opinion is that thinking among hon. Members opposite in regard to these matters is somewhat conditioned by social backgrounds.
    I can best express it by saying that the approach of hon. Members opposite to the vast problem of the one-third of the world under Communist régimes and the very powerful and growing forces making for social change and colonial emancipation in many other parts of the world is too apt to proceed on some such basis as this—first, the underlying, subconscious assumption that there is nothing seriously wrong with the existing order of things— "We have never had it so good", and all that—and that there is no alternative to the existing social or imperial order that would be radically
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    different and better. On the contrary, their view is that the only alternative would be "Red ruin and the breaking up of laws."
    Any hon. Member opposite who did not start with that fundamental belief as a kind of conditioned reflex would soon cease to be a Conservative, and would probably end up on this side of the House by getting into trouble for being a Socialist. It follows from this that when faced by the phenomenon of social and colonial unrest hon. Members opposite find it impossible to admit that it is due to inherent defects in the social order, and to indigenous forces. Their belief is that it is due to infiltration and subversion by foreign agents.
    That is a long-standing belief. I remember very well how Sir Robert Bruce Lockhart, in his memoirs about the Russian revolution, complained bitterly of finding it impossible to remove the impression, from the minds of the upper reaches of Whitehall and the Cabinet, that Lenin and Trotsky were German staff officers in disguise, or at least German agents working with German gold and under German instructions. On this view the Russian revolution was due to German gold and infiltration and subversion by German agents and every revolution since then has been due to Russian gold, and infiltration and subversion by Russian agents. That is the true-blue fundamentalist school of Tory sociology—a product of high living and plain thinking. I have caricatured the situation a little, but there is an awful lot of that point of view in the approach of hon. Members opposite to these problems.
    One of the things we have to do is to try to shake our minds loose from these conceptions. I am not sure whether it was the Foreign Secretary, in a rather dynamic moment in a speech that was not very dynamic, or someone speaking from my own Front Bench, who said something about the need for breaking the mould of the cold war. I agree. We have reached a dead end on present lines I know that we are playing about with a Summit Conference, but I am more interested in what will happen afterwards.
    We have reached the stage when we must think out our position and purpose. We should be working towards a way in

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    which we can switch over the relations between the great Powers, which are at present based on the assumptions and methods of the balance of power, and transfer them to the Charter of the United Nations. I know the assumption is that the two things can be run in double harness, and that we can combine military alliances with the United Nations. I have inveighed against this view for many years and I will not go into it again.
    Our choice is either to proceed on the assumption that the Soviet Union wants to attack us and that we must pile up arms and conclude alliances to restrain her will to aggress. In that case we are committed to a losing arms race in weapons that are suicidal and in conditions where we are very much the junior partner on our side. That is another point upon which I agree with what was said by the noble Lord; it is part of the price we have to pay for this set-up that we are an American base and an American political satellite.
    I do not like this choice because I think that we have more sense than the Americans in this situation. I even grant that to hon. Members opposite, which is quite a concession on my part. It is even a slight concession for my own side. On the whole, we have more sense—and we need more sense, because we have not so much weight to chuck about. One thing I discovered as a League of Nations official was that whereas great States can afford to have duds as their international representatives, smaller States, if they want to keep their end up, have to have people who know what the score is and have a policy and purpose. We have now reached a stage where this is becoming a rather urgent necessity for us.
    We must face the fact that it is now up to us to advocate taking the risks of basing our policy on the Charter of the United Nations. We can do this only if we believe that the real danger is not a deliberate attack by one side upon the other, but of war breaking out by accident as the result of a collision between the rival defence preparations. That danger is inherent in the balance of power and an arms race. It always is, and it must be. In fact, a war under this kind of set-up does in the end result
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    by way of collision between rival defence preparations, when each side is trying to defend its own view of its rights against the other side. I have taken this view for a long time but I do not expect to be listened to when I repeat it in this House, but I was interested in what the Prime Minister said when he was in Moscow last February and again in his broadcast with President Eisenhower on 1st September.
    In Moscow, the right hon. Gentleman said:
    "It is not that we fear acts of calculated aggression and I hope that you do not. … At the same time it is impossible to hide from ourselves the dangers of a war by miscalculation or by muddle. In such circumstances, it is the duty of statesmen to see if it is possible to establish some basis of confidence or treaty or in some other way to reduce this danger."
    The right hon. Gentleman also said that we and the Soviet Union have a common interest in preserving peace. I believe that is true. But it leads us straight back to the Charter and to basing our mutual relations on the Charter. As a permanent member of the Security Council we are in a position of equality with the United States and the Soviet Union. We are one of the permanent members without whose vote no decision can be taken on matters of substance. So in this system of international relations we can play a first-class part, were we prepared to put forward proposals designed to effect this transfer from the balance of power to the United Nations.
    I follow up with what the Prime Minister said in his broadcast with the President on 1st September. He pointed out that the First World War happened by mistake and should never have happened. He said he believed that if we had had some kind of meeting it never would have happened. He said:
    "Now we are in a situation—in which … there is a danger that we might drift into something by mistake. Bluff, counter-bluff, lack of understanding on both sides and drift into something by mistake."
    Quite so. I hope that the Government may finally come round to the position where they will advocate taking a first step towards building up an East-West regional agreement in Europe, genuinely based on the Charter, within which the United States and France and ourselves and Germany would function—a united Germany, when she is united—as members of the United Nations; and that

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    the rival alliances should be subordinated to this treaty. This should be part of the disarmament provisions and withdrawal of forces and the banning of nuclear weapons and international control provisions under the agreement. There should also be an undertaking that neither side would invoke their military obligations under any other treaty so long as this regional agreement was in force and being operated. That would be the first step, I believe, and would form a solid foundation for a new start.
    It is only when we have established some sort of United Nations system of relationships on the political plane and on the question of armaments that we can make a reality of policies of economic and technical co-operation to assist in the development of under-developed countries. Lord Boyd-Orr once said to me that if the States taking part in this arms race were to enter into an agreement for limiting their arms and cutting their defence budgets by, say, 10 per cent. a year; if they ploughed back half of that cut into their own economies and pooled the other half in a central fund under the United Nations and used it to finance development in the underdeveloped territories, we should have a central fund equal to something like £2,000 million a year. The danger of unemployment and over-production would be a thing of the past, because we should then have a steady and rapid expansion of the economies of the backward countries, a tidal wave of orders to the advanced industrial nations, and a world moving towards a quite different kind of civilisation.
    We cannot do these things unless we alter some of this rather old-fashioned view of the nature of Communism. It is a social challenge, not a military threat. The Soviet Union does not want war, but if we keep up the arms race with the Communist world, we shall be in a worse and worse position and sooner or later we shall stumble by accident into a war which no one wants and in which these terrible weapons will wipe out the human race. It is for this country to give a lead for sanity, for a better way of doing things. We cannot hold our own in this arms race. We are bound to be a worsening third. But we could give a lead in political wisdom and sanity.
    6.16 p.m.
    Sir Henry d'Avigdor-Goldsmid: This has been an extremely unacrimonious debate and I wish to thank the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) for contributing at least his quota to the lack of acrimony, which is a very pleasant change from some speakers we have heard in this Chamber on this subject.
    I feel diffident about rising to take part in this debate, because I am a newcomer to these debates on foreign affairs which, for so long, have been the province of the specialist. But I was inspired to do so by the extraordinarily eloquent remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head). He made a speech which created a certain amount of antagonism from the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), but I think that my right hon. Friend carried with him the support of those on this side of the House who heard him. I noticed that his speech was greeted by considerable approval from hon. Members on both sides of the House when the Chamber was not so empty as it is now.
    What was the gist of this speech and the importance of it? The cold war is now a dead concept. We have emerged from that phase. Now the phase is the battle for men's minds and it is one, as was said by my right hon. Friend, which we are not fighting with distinction. The remedy is not easy, but finding a remedy is absolutely crucial. One cannot help but be tremendously impressed by what WHS said by my right hon. Friend about the technical assistance now given by Russia to the underdeveloped countries. That brings me to my theme, which is that it is within our power to give that sort of assistance, too.
    If the House will bear with me, I should like to mention what is being done by a very small country which is facing difficulties not all the same as ours, but of the same kind. I refer to the State of Israel, which is confronted by antagonistic neighbours on all its land boundaries. At the same time as it has maintained its military strength—this is a point to which I shall return—Israel has engaged in the battle for men's minds and made a definite attempt to capture the interest and do something to help build up the new nations.

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    Israel is to some extent now a member of what is loosely termed the Afro-Asian bloc. I say loosely, because, despite the rivalry of the Arab countries, Israel has gone out to capture the imagination and build up the institutions of new countries such as Burma, Ghana and Ethiopia. These are all small and new countries who are extraordinarily interested in Western ideas and receptive to them. They are anxious to get the benefit of the sort of skilled tuition which Israel gives. We too, could give that tuition in an infinitely greater measure if we thought about it on those terms and not as an ex-colonial Power—or, as someone said, an ex-boss Power—but as a teacher interested in imparting his knowledge. A teacher realises that if he does not impart knowledge he and his whole school will be lost.
    That is the first thought I should like to leave with my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench. In this battle for men's minds we might gain a great deal by following what has been done in Israel—on quite a small scale, because it is only a very small country. I am absolutely certain that the demand for knowledge in the awakening nations is boundless. The means for satisfying it are small, but such means for satisfying it are found more amply in this country than in any other. That is a problem which my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary has got to consider with the Home Office and other authorities—how far we can go to meet this need.
    Here, I think that I should destroy a particular point made by the right hon. Member for Belper. He referred with great approval to his party's pledge to spend 1 per cent. of the national income on underdeveloped countries. That, of course, was a very safe pledge to give, because I think that I am right in saying that the amount we now invest in underdeveloped countries is more than £200 million a year, which is more than 1 per cent.
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: I think that the hon. Member will find on examination that that £200 million includes private investment, whereas our 1 per cent. referred to public money.
    Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid: Naturally I accept the right hon. Gentleman's correction, but, with great respect, that was not made clear in the election addresses of hon. Members opposite. That the 1 per cent. was to come only from the public purse was not put across clearly.
    The mere expenditure of money will not win this battle. Our activity must have a direction. In the war we had a Political Warfare Department. Now that warfare is no more, that could be rechristened the "Political Welfare Department". It could have the same initials and might serve the same purpose. Above all, the target for that purpose, I should have thought, would be India. There is a vast sub-continent organised to receive assistance. It is not a question of setting up an ad hoc organisation to receive the generosity of the West, for in India there is a Government which could use—and use practically—the help that the West can give. I should have thought that the battle for India was the key to the whole Afro-Asian Continent.
    The key to India, I should say, is in West Berlin. If we think that we can help India by retreating from our position in West Berlin, we will certainly not help India or ourselves. Here I support my noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton). We would then invite the Communist bloc to profit from the failure of people in Europe to support their friends, and we shall never make friends by betraying our friends. Peace was considered indivisible; this problem, also, is indivisible. We must meet our obligations to the people of West Berlin, obligations to 2½ million people which no one in this House would consider casting on one side.
    I do not think that there was the same atmosphere a year ago. We are very glad to have that improvement and great credit must be given to my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for the improvement in those relations. Still, the key to India is West Berlin. In West Berlin, a peaceful settlement has to be obtained. With that, if we devote our energies to this struggle for men's minds which is being fought in Asia, in India and Malaya, we shall

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    be able to play our proper part. I can only re-echo what has been said, that this battle is absolutely crucial to our future. We remember George Bernard Shaw's play "The Apple Cart". In that play the whole prosperity that this country then enjoyed was built up on the production of the Colonies. Those days have passed, but we cannot possibly think that we can maintain our prosperity in a world where two-thirds of the population is growing poorer.
    The only way in which we can maintain the prosperity of this country, or the prosperity of the Western world, is to take the necessary steps to share it with the under-developed nations which have this enormous desire to learn, which are not doctrinally attached to any one nation, and whose desire it is to enjoy in some measure the benefit and pleasure of the full life which is now open to all who live in the Western world.
    6.27 p.m.
    Mr. R. T. Paget: I am always a little surprised at the speeches from hon. Members opposite which seem to suggest that the development of the under-developed countries is a sort of anti-Communist exercise. I would not wish to discourage them from well-doing even by pointing out to them the fallacy of their reasoning. I do not believe for a moment that developing the rest of the world is a method of frustrating the Communists, or, indeed, that it has anything to do with this.
    For reasons which I think are mainly moral, I should like to see the world's wealth used to develop the world, but I am equally delighted to see the Communist countries do the same thing. I cannot for the life of me see why we should get into an anxiety state when we see the Communists use their surplus in developing backward nations instead of merely building up their armaments.
    The idea that imperialism, whether it be military or economic, pays, is, I believe, a profound delusion. In the eighteenth century India may have given us, temporarily, an investment surplus, but since the eighteenth century I am quite confident that not only this nation but every imperial nation has found its empire an economic liability. We have, in fact, handed out to our empire far
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    more than we have ever received from it, both in material terms and, indeed, in spiritual terms.
    Do not imagine that by economically building up a country we thereby gain its love. Nothing could be more against the facts. Having seen the Russians in their colonial empire in Europe, I do not think that if they take economic development into Asia and Africa they are likely to bring either tact or other lovable qualities superior to those possessed by others. This is something quite outside party issues.
    As a back bencher I cannot take a general tour d'horizon, and I want particularly to deal with the question of the Summit Conference and to say a good deal about the speech of the noble Lord the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton), with which I found myself in considerable agreement. I am often in considerable agreement with his speeches. Both our Prime Minister and Mr. Khrushchev seem to be very keen on having a Summit Conference at once. For reasons which I will give a little later, I can fully understand Mr. Khrushchev's enthusiasm, but I find it much more difficult to understand the Prime Minister's enthusiasm.
    What do we expect to get out of a Summit Conference? Do we expect to get a better and more secure agreement on West Berlin? I find it extremely hard to think of any change in the Berlin Agreement which would not be a change having both the design and effect of weakening our position. If anything is given on Berlin at the Summit, it will be something given by the West. What shall we get in exchange? Disarmament? I believe that, on principle, disarmament is agreed. I do not see how a Summit Conference is the sort of instrument which will solve the details of inspection and control, which are the present problems.
    Finally, there is the question of good will. Is the object of the Summit Conference to enable these great men to meet each other, to know each other and to find what good, accommodating fellows they are and of what peaceful content? I do not know. That was said to be the object of the last meeting at Geneva, and it was highly successful. Indeed, the Russians were so encouraged that they immediately started "giving us hell" in the Middle East, an area which Mr. Stalin

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    had been warned off previously. Again, if we want to show the other side how accommodating we are, should we choose General de Gaulle or Konrad Adenauer as our Western exhibit?
    If this is our policy, are we not wasting a lot of money on the bomb? If deterrence means anything, it means that we are led by the sort of men who are prepared to blow up the world if our periphery is invaded. I do not know that the peaceful, accommodating aspect is likely to convince people of that. It seems to me that we ought to try to make up our minds about whether the Prime Minister wants to be regarded as "Mac the Peace" or "Mac the Bomb," because they are different concepts. If we want the former, then the massive expenditure on deterrence seems to be misplaced.
    I can see the Russians' interest in a Summit. Their interest in a Summit is to divide the West. Look how successful they have been by the very process of proposing this Summit. The West today is in serious disarray. The noble Lord pointed to the serious reasons for distrust there were between us and the French, but he omitted far and away the most serious of all these reasons—Suez.
    To the French the Suez expedition was something very different from what it was to us. France was being bled white by a war in Algiers, occupying the whole of her young generation and stretching her economy. She looked—and it was a vital objective to her—to Suez to win the war in Algiers. She found that suddenly, after her troops were committed, our present Prime Minister went to the Cabinet and said, "Boys, you will have to stop or the Americans will cut off the money". Rightly or wrongly, France regarded herself as betrayed—and betrayed for money. The American attitude was different. They had whipped us into order. France felt that she had been betrayed.
    There has been a lot of talk about collusion. It has been denied constantly on the Government Front Bench, but the French know that the Foreign Secretary was fully in with them in fixing the Israeli invasion. It is no use denying it to them, because they know; they made the agreement with him and they were left "carrying the baby." The position was aggravated, as the noble
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    Lord pointed out, by our subsequent behaviour towards the Americans—the desperate attempt to creep back into American favour at French expense, such as sending arms to Tunisia.
    With that background, is it surprising that there is not much unity between us and the French? Indeed, when it comes to the Free Trade Area, the reason why we are finding negotiations impossible is the attitude of France, who will not agree with those people who betrayed her.
    Let us look at the Germans. First, and without consulting our German allies, we announced a new defence system. I agree that by a lawyer's reading of the Brussels Treaty, it is possible to argue that we were entitled to reduce our commitment, although that had not been the way we were talking. Much more serious, not merely were we reducing the commitment but we were relying for our defence on an independent deterrent here. That was saying to the Germans, "Hang you, Fritz, I'm all right." That was not good for confidence there.
    Next came the visit to Moscow. What the Prime Minister himself has described an an ultimatum had been delivered by the Russians concerning German territory in Berlin. Brentano had come over here and talked to us about that very candidly and very freely. Not a hint was given to him of the intention to go to Moscow. I challenge the Government spokesman on this. The first the Germans heard about it was when they read about it in the newspapers.
    The last time a British Prime Minister went to see the author of an ultimatum concerning a territory belonging to someone else was Munich. The Germans drew that parallel, as did all others. That wrecked confidence in Britain, and one had the undignified spectacle of our own representatives trying to explain in Bonn that it must not be taken seriously because it was only for electioneering purposes.
    I do not believe either that betrayal was intended or that it was for electioneering purposes. I believe that the Prime Minister went to Moscow simply because he had not been there since the 'thirties and thought that it would be

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    rather fun to have a look. To understand that, one has to know the essential frivolity of an aspect of the Prime Minister's nature, the sort of thing that enables him to so enjoy being Prime Minister. Such an unserious explanation did not occur to the Germans.
    If someone deserts your lines and slips across to the enemy, you may be able to forgive him, as, indeed, I forgive the Prime Minister, if you are convinced that he has merely gone to see his girl friend; but if he has gone for a serious purpose there is nothing for it except to shoot the fellow, and that is precisely what the Germans think about the Prime Minister.
    There being that level of disunity, we should be a little grateful for the display of bitter sense by France and Germany, who know the extent to which the West is in disarray and have given us a little time to get straight.
    The Foreign Secretary challenged my hon. Friend to say when the Americans mediated. The Americans mediated when President Eisenhower came over to this country, shortly before the election, to try to clear up the desperate break which was occurring in N.A.T.O. At the last N.A.T.O. Conference, as many hon. Members who were there know, neither the French nor the Germans would speak to us.
    I pay this tribute to President Eisenhower. He has an enormous capacity for persuading allies and he did them all a lot of good, but the price he had to pay was, in substance, promising the Germans a veto on anything which happened at the Summit. Upon that basis should we not be grateful for our opportunity? Should we not try to make some use of the time to recreate a unity of the West and put our forces in array before we have to meet the very formidable Russians?
    There are two things which I suggest that we should do. First, we ought to appoint a Foreign Secretary. We have not had a Foreign Secretary for a long time. The last Foreign Secretary we had was the present Prime Minister. When he had very nearly brought about a Greco-Turk war, Sir Anthony Eden decided to do without a Foreign Secretary. That is how the present right hon. and learned Gentleman was appointed. That has been his position ever since.
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    A Foreign Secretary, to be a Foreign Secretary, must be a man who stands next in succession, or almost next in succession, to the seat of the Prime Minister. He must be the type of man who appears to be in a position to make and influence great decisions. Of course, the right hon. and learned Gentleman is not. As Mr. Khrushchev brutally observed of Mr. Gromyko, "What do you want him for? Nobody pays any attention to him". We could equally observe that of our present Foreign Secretary. We must have a real Foreign Secretary if we are to mend this rift which is developing in the West. It is a job for a very big man, a man of real authority.
    We have heard much talk about "Supermac" When I saw the appointments in the present Government I was desperately afraid that the Prime Minister was beginning to believe in "Supermac"; and that is a very dangerous thing in which to believe.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke Viscount Hinchingbrooke rose—
    Mr. Paget: I will not give way to the noble Viscount at this stage.
    When I found that the Prime Minister had decided to do without not only a Foreign Secretary but a Minister of Defence I thought that it looked very alarming, because no man could have made those two appointments who did not reckon that he himself would be making the real decisions. After all, the device of surrounding yourself by favourite Ministers of so little credit that they can only live by your favour is a device of power which is old and of ill-repute. We need a Foreign Secretary.
    The other thing which we need is unity in Europe.
    Mr. Osborne: Like the Labour Party.
    Mr. Paget: That is a remark of a fatuity almost unexampled and unprecedented even by the hon. Member.
    What we need is unity in Europe, and we have to pay for that unity. We must pay by making concessions in the imperial and Commonwealth field which we would not have wished to make a year ago and which may be painful, but that sort of concession must be made at this stage if an array is to be created in Western Europe which will give us some

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    chance of meeting the Russians. N.A.T.O. is not enough. N.A.T.O. has been falling apart. There must be real unity which goes not only to the military but also down into the economic field.
    6.48 p.m.
    Mr. Paul Williams: At one stage of the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) I thought that I would have been able to agree with him to a certain extent, but in view of the latter part of his speech I have a great deal of reservation, especially as I suspect that he gave notice of his remarks neither to the Prime Minister nor to the Foreign Secretary. If that is so, he has committed a grave discourtesy which was quite unnecessary in this debate. I will, however, refer to three points which he made.
    Mr. Paget: When the hon. Gentleman knows the practice of the House a little better he will understand that no back bencher ever should give notice to a Minister in charge of a debate unless he proposes to attack him on a personal matter, to accuse him of being corrupt, or something of that sort. It would have been wholly out of order for me to have given notice.
    Mr. Williams: All that I can say to the hon. and learned Gentleman is that, if I had intended to make half as vitriolic a speech about him as he has made about my right hon. Friend and my right hon. and learned Friend, I would have had the courtesy to do what I suggest.
    Mr. Paget: Certainly—
    Hon. Members: Sit down.
    Mr. Williams: However, I will pay the hon. and learned Gentleman the tribute of referring to some of his remarks. In particular, I noticed his opening passage in which, to me, he debunked the whole philosophical approach of the Labour Party, over a long period of years, to colonial Powers. In that passage, the hon. and learned Gentleman said in no uncertain terms that, historically, colonial Powers had repeatedly invested in, and put more effort into, Colonial Territories than they had ever drawn out. It is very pleasant on this side of the House to have such
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    a degree of honesty coming from the other side on such a matter at last.
    Next, the hon. and learned Gentleman asked what was expected of the Summit. I should have thought that hon. Members on both sides of the House now took the line that from a Summit we did not expect a diplomatic Everest, but rather the beginning of a Himalayan range of political discussions continuing through the years. This, to me, is the way that the Summit Conference, and what will flow from it, will develop.
    The hon. and learned Gentleman then referred to our friendship, or lack of friendship, with France, and spoke particularly of Suez. It does not come very well for many hon. Members opposite to criticise the rôle of this country at Suez. If there was a weakness here at that time, it came from that side of the Chamber, not this. He spoke of the need for friendship with France. Again, this is a most extraordinary attitude from a party that has repeatedly, violently, vigorously, publicly, and for a long time, opposed up hill and down dale the desire of the French to have their own atomic device.
    I could think of nothing, in France's mood today, more calculated to make friendship with her more difficult than an approach of that kind. It may be an unpleasant fact of life to some hon. Gentlemen that the French should want an atomic weapon of their own, but it is a fact of life none the less, and as we are trying to get a closer alliance with France I should have thought that the least we could do would be to help the French on their way in this respect.
    I intend, as many other hon. Gentleman have done, to devote the major part of my speech to the underdeveloped countries and, in particular, to the Commonwealth's rôle in the development of those countries. To me, the Commonwealth, and its rôle in the world is of supreme importance. I am an unrepentant believer in the part that the Commonwealth can play, not only in political advance but in economic development. Indeed, if the mood of the House as a whole, if the mood of back benchers, is any guide at all it is reasonable to say that the Commonwealth will figure largely in our debates and thoughts throughout this Parliament. It may be

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    that the test of the wisdom of this Parliament will be whether we can carry forward in equanimity the historical advance of the Commonwealth on both the political and economic fronts, to the advantage of all its members and of humanity at large.
    One of the things about which we boast in this country—with a degree of humility, if that is not a contradiction in terms—is that we are prosperous, strong, free and united. These are four priceless assets, and I only hope that during the course of this Parliament those four assets can be brought into play to redress the poverty and degradation that exists in Africa and in Asia. This can be done only if we have closer consultation and co-operation within the Commonwealth itself for a start.
    I do not believe that we can best serve our purpose, either as a nation or as the heart and soul of the Commonwealth, by thinking primarily of Europe and only secondarily of the Commonwealth. I reverse those priorities, and say that our first thoughts should be of the Commonwealth and that, around that, we should try to amass our alliances and friendships. I believe that we could have served our cause better by calling a Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference on the way to the Summit rather than, perhaps, after the Summit Conference has taken place or after the European discussions have taken place.
    Surely, it is our central position—central both in geography and in the politics of the world—that gives us our decisive influence in world affairs. I disagreed with my noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lambton) when he suggested that we were of declining and debased importance. I think that our central Commonwealth position gives us a decisive power if we have the energy and the will to use that situation.
    I should like now, if I may, to speak for a few minutes about a reorganisation which I believe could be of inestimable help in the way we conduct our affairs in the Commonwealth and in the Colonial Territories. There is a need for fundamental reorganisation of both the Commonwealth Relations Office and the Colonial Office. In fact, I am not altogether sure that those two offices are
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    not totally out of date, and that we should not sweep them away and replace them with a new Commonwealth Office with, perhaps, a senior Minister, with three Ministers of State under him, to look after geographical regions or economic interests throughout the Commonwealth.
    This is the way in which we can best serve our Commonwealth purpose, but we can use this form of machine only if the status of the new Commonwealth Office that I would like to see set up was that of a powerful, dynamic, policymaking Department of State, not only guiding and influencing, but perhaps controlling our foreign policy—because, to me, the Commonwealth is the kernel of our external associations. Here, at home, we can with justification claim that as history has rolled on we have developed "One Nation", but what we now have to do is to change the "One Nation" at home into "One Commonwealth" overseas.
    The key to this Commonwealth development over the years must be the word "partnership"; partnership not only between the older nations, but also partnership and co-operation with the emerging territories as well; a partnership which needs most to be expressed in terms of Kenya—a Colony visited by the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) and myself earlier in the year—and also in Central Africa. Nobody can be completely happy and at ease about the political developments in Africa—least of all, the African nationalists themselves.
    What we have to do is to use our long-standing historical experience to guide them—by peaceful ways, one hopes—to self-government which, as we see in the Gracious Speech, will come to Nigeria in the not-too-distant future. There, there is being worked out a partnership of black Africans, but one that can be mirrored in East and Central Africa if patience, statesmanship and dynamism are combined. But advance in Africa is not a matter of political advance alone. In fact, perhaps it would be better if political advance could come in the train of economic advance, for self-government and independence is meaningless unless it is also independence on the economic front.

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    Have we done enough to help the underdeveloped countries of the Commonwealth? Of course not. Nobody ever could have done enough. I understand that hon. Members opposite suggest that they would devote 1 per cent. of the gross national product to helping the underdeveloped countries of the Commonwealth. I cannot understand why they should want to cut the help to such a small figure. That is a most extraordinary approach. What we must do is to gross up the amount to a figure considerably in advance of that, and it is the method of the provision of the finance that is, perhaps, the key to this matter.
    Lest a remark that I made in interrupting my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) earlier today was misunderstood, perhaps I may be permitted to enlarge a little on it. I said that the problem of education in Kenya was not one of finance. In fact, I do not believe that it is only finance. The provision of teachers is much more a key to the building up of the correct pyramid than is putting up money to no particular purpose. I would ask the Government: how can we finance further development in the Commonwealth and Colonial Territories?
    Last year, at the Montreal Conference there was proposed the establishment of a Commonwealth Bank. I believe that this proposal, like so many new and helpful suggestions, was referred to a committee. This is as dangerous as referring something to a Royal Commission. I hope very much that the proposal is not just sent to a committee and forgotten. I hope that it has not been marked "File and forget", but that it will call for action from the Government in considering whether it is a practicable proposition, as some of us on this side of the House believe it to be.
    I believe that we can best help the underdeveloped territories by having a strong and vigorous economy at home and, out of our surplus, investing in the Commonwealth. I have reservations about the suggestions made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and by my noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed when they say that we should co-ordinate our colonial policies with Europe. I am not sure that
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    I really want to co-ordinate our colonial policies in this country with those of other countries. The other countries may well feel the same.
    The best way of dealing with this matter is for us independently to pursue our own development plans in our own Colonial Territories. I agree that there should be an over-riding consultation, but detailed agreement is, I think, not only impossible but it might lead to greater dangers than advantages. Therefore, while I agree that there is a general sense that there should be a loose cooperation between the imperial Powers in Europe, I think that that is as far as one can go in practical terms. We should use the instrument of our trading policy, establishing a Commonwealth Bank, aiming to buy as much from Commonwealth territories as is possible, securing the interests of the West Indies, for example, against American produce. These are the ways to help the underdeveloped territories best of all.
    I have devoted my remarks almost exclusively to the Commonwealth for two reasons. First, I believe that this is the way ahead for Britain in the future, through making a more co-ordinated and more closely-knit Commonwealth the centre of our alliances, friendships and trading policies. Secondly, I believe that it is the right way to bring help to those who are poverty-stricken, hit by disease and lashed by famine. One hon. Member earlier said that the condition of the backward peoples was becoming worse. I believe that to be an exaggeration. Their condition is improving, but it is not improving at the rate at which conditions are improving in the advanced countries, and the difference between the two is growing greater.
    There are seeds of future dissension and dispute in this situation. It is something to which we must turn our thoughts in this Parliament. This is the moment now for this country to return to its first love, its prime allegiance—allegiance to the Commonwealth and a reverse allegiance from the Commonwealth to us. There is a need for an emotional revival of faith in the Commonwealth. If we have that faith we shall not only have faith in the Commonwealth, and the Commonwealth have faith in us, but we shall be able to provide the wealth both at home and overseas and so advance the

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    lot of humanity at the greatest possible rate.
    7.3 p.m.
    Mr. J. Grimond: I do not for a moment dissent from what the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) said about the importance of the Commonwealth. I think, however, that it is a little unfortunate to begin putting things in orders of priority as though we were playing a round game, some people saying that the Commonwealth is more important than Europe and some saying that Europe is more important than the Commonwealth. The important function for this country, since it happens to have a central position in the Commonwealth and is also an extremely important European country, while, at the same time, having intimate ties of history and language with the United States, is to prevent these different societies from becoming exclusive and to try to make them pull together, not against one another.
    I turn, first of all, to our relations with Russia and the Communist world. I am bound to say that I feel that we have been somewhat mesmerised by Russia. Unfortunately, the way our relations with the Communist world develop depends very much on Russia's development and a good deal on America's development. Much as we may plan for the future, we have only a limited sphere within which we can really exercise an effective interest ourselves. Nevertheless, it is an important interest and one which has loomed large in this debate.
    One of the striking features of this debate and of previous foreign affairs debates is that the idea seems now to be accepted that the cold war is off—that was said, I think, by the hon. Member for Walsall, South (Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid)—and the battle for men's minds, as it is described, is on. This is becoming the central theme for all foreign affairs debate. We then have the question of what we are to do about the under-developed countries, it being assumed that the way to men's minds is through their stomachs.
    Mr. Farey-Jones: Very true.
    Mr. Grimond: That is borne out, as we hear, by evidence on the other side of the Chamber.
    Mr. Osborne: Not by all.
    Mr. Grimond: In my view, the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) and the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) are right in saying that, if we appear to be pouring out such aid as we can simply to stop people going Communist, this will not do us much good. We ought to act from higher motives than that. But, of course, the skill of statesmanship is in making baser motives serve higher, enlisting self-interest in the cause of morality.
    If we are to do that, it will not simply be a matter of giving out money, food and so forth. It is becoming apparent that democracy is not working very well in the countries to which we have encouraged its export. Indeed, I hear that one of the most frequent cries in parts of Asia today is "Up military dictatorship", not "Up democracy". We must devote some thought to the type of government which we ought to encourage and help in these territories which are, at one time, trying to establish their freedom and independence and, at the same time, trying to raise their populations from desperate poverty. I very much doubt whether one can pull people up from desperate poverty and, at the same time, run the sort of Parliamentary system which we have, and I do not believe that we have given nearly enough thought to this.
    I come now to education. One thing which strikes one about the situation in Africa today is the shocking lack of education provided by us in places like Nyasaland. Unless we do provide education, including technical education, a great deal of the material help we give is inevitably wasted. I follow the hon. Member for Walsall, South in saying that it would obviously be wise to concentrate our help in areas which can use it, and India is an extremely good example, I think, of a country which probably can use the help which she is given. Unless there is some concentration, the effort is likely to be wasted.
    As regards a Summit Conference and negotiation with Russia, I take it from what was said by the Prime Minister a couple of days ago that the Summit is really now more or less off, as the hon. and learned Member for Northampton will be pleased to note. The Summit is

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    being melted down, as it were, into a series of rather small hills. There is to be a series of negotiations over a considerable period of time. I welcome this. It seems to be a much more sensible approach to our problems to do this rather than hope to have them all solved by some sort of Congress of Vienna, as the Prime Minister described it, dancing waltzes under the television lights for a week or two in some congenial capital.
    I share, the fear of the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), however, that the Summit may, perhaps, become a stumbling block in that all sorts of useful negotiations which could and should go on may not go on because a Summit Conference is to take place next month, the month after, or the month after that. One immediate question is whether there are any negotiations going on about the Middle East. Is there any attempt being made now to stop this ridiculous situation in which we are supplying arms to countries we do not like and the Russians are supplying arms to the countries they do not like? Is any effort being made to stop the flow of arms to the Middle East and to bring about some settlement in that area?
    Not long ago, Mr. Khrushchev made an offer, a rather bold offer, about disarmament. This is being taken up through the United Nations to some extent, but many of us were extremely disappointed in the Government's response to that offer. It seemed to many of us that whether it was sincere or not could well have been tested by saying, "If you want total disarmament, you must have inspection. Are you willing to allow inspection in Russia? If you are, we will allow you to inspect our process of disarmament on this side of the Iron Curtain". The Government owes us an explanation as to what has happened to that offer and why it was so coldly received when it was made.
    Relations with Russia and the Communist world are extremely important, but they have, to some extent, deflected us from attending to things in which we can have more influence and which may also become very important in the near future. Here again, I rather agree with the hon. Member for Leeds, East that there is a rapidly changing situation in Europe and in the Western world
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    generally. I think that the Anglo-Saxon countries, by which I mean, with some inaccuracy perhaps, the Americans and ourselves, including the Celtic and Nordic fringes, have lost a good deal of prestige.
    As the hon. Member said, there has been a great growth in the power of Europe. There has also been the danger—I think that it is a danger—of a spread of nuclear weapons. I do not agree with the hon. Member for Sunderland, South that it is good, as I think he implied, that France should make its own nuclear bombs. The spread of nuclear weapons is, I think, extremely dangerous. I believe that if this country attaches so much importance to nuclear deterrents, and if it insists upon making its own weapons, it is only natural that other countries will do the same.
    I hope that the Government will give some reality to the talk about interdependence and not only make a real effort to stop nuclear tests but try to come to a more united defence system with less reliance on the ultimate nuclear deterrent, which I think is probably an outmoded weapon, and in the process limit the spread of nuclear weapons all round the world.
    I thought that we had some interesting remarks from, I take it, the official spokesman for the Labour Party on the subject of Europe. He took the Government to task for not going more wholeheartedly into the movement for European unity. I think that he was justified. I think that we have made a grave mistake in allowing ourselves to be pushed out of Europe, politically and economically. I thought that the speech of the President of the Board of Trade yesterday was notable for its complacency on this point. He spoke with the most bland patronage of what was going on in Europe as though he was looking down on it as a sort of paternal uncle and it was nice that the children were getting on so well. But I remember very much the same attitude being taken by the Labour Party when it was in office.
    I can remember the hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman)—I now propose to pay him a compliment, and therefore I do not think that I have to give him notice—making a most effective speech about the tremendous importance

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    of the Schuman Plan, saying how excellent it was and how delightful it was that Europeans were getting on so well in this way, but we were not going to have anything to do with it; it was not for this country. I do not say that this is a simple matter because I think that very serious issues are involved. It has been noticeable since the war that Europe is a hobby of politicians in opposition.
    It may be said that as the Liberal Party is permanently in opposition it is a permanent hobby of ours, but we have at any rate a consistent attitude on this point. We have pressed both parties to go wholeheartedly into Europe. However, I want to deal with some of the arguments against this, because there are serious arguments against it. If this is a change of attitude, both on this side and from Members on the other side like the noble Lord the Member for Berwick-on-Tweed (Viscount Lambton), who also took his own Government to task on this score, we must be certain that this is a change of heart which would survive if the Labour Party were in office. The first objection which is usually taken is that it contradicts our obligations to the Commonwealth. I dare say that the hon. Member for Sunderland, South holds that view. I can only say that I think that the Commonwealth would welcome entry into European markets.
    The next objection which I put against it is that it would mean giving up some of what is called sovereignty. We must face this. It does mean giving up the power to take unilateral decisions on some subjects, but I do not believe that it is nearly as frightening as it sounds when we talk about giving up sovereignty in the abstract. We will not be overrun by the French and Germans and made to do things of which we disapprove. As things have worked out, there has been much less surrender of sovereignty than many people expected when things like the Coal and Steel Community were set up. I do not myself welcome that, but it should be some assurance to those concerned on this point.
    However, the most serious objection is that if we are sincere about going into closer economic and political association in Europe and building Western Germany
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    into that association, we may make it much more difficult to come to a settlement between East and West and we shall certainly make it much more difficult to achieve any unity in Germany. Obviously, if Western Germany is tightly built into a European system it will be very much more difficult to come to an agreement with the East Germans and it may be much more difficult to break down the barriers between East and West generally.
    This is a genuine difficulty which must be faced, but personally I think that it is worth the risk. Furthermore, I do not believe that the alternative is as attractive as some people think. The problem of Europe will never be settled until there is a great unity among the nations of Western Europe. I thought that the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed was inclined to put the blame for our failure to go into Europe on to the Americans. I may have done him an injustice, but he seemed to me to imply that.
    Viscount Lambton: In no way did I imply that, but I thought that the reason we failed in Europe was that we had, as it were, put a bar on our association with America before that with Europe. Consequently, we have on many occasions made Europe think that we were using America for our own ends against them.
    Mr. Grimond: I hope that makes it clear. I do not think that it is fair to say that the Americans have ever objected to our going into Europe.
    Viscount Lambton: I think that they welcome it.
    Mr. Grimond: I agree. I do not think that this can be said to be an objection. There are quite serious points which we must face about going into a closer association with Europe if they will have us—at present they do not like us—but, to my mind, the advantages to be gained greatly outweigh them on one condition, namely, that we do not regard this as going into a more exclusive combination, so to speak, but as a step in the general building up of better relationships throughout the world. I do not regard this in any way contradictory to the strongest possible support of the United Nations or the Atlantic Alliance. Once we begin saying that something is more important than another we shall get into

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    great philosophical difficulties which need not arise on practical questions. However, we are separated from Europe.
    I believe that we have misunderstood a good deal of what the European movement is about, because it is not primarily an economic movement but a political movement. To be left out of a major political movement in the West would be very serious for this country.
    I hope that, whatever happens in this series of minor peaks or lesser summits, whatever they are called, we shall look very much, first, to that part of the world where we can exercise influence, namely, our own Colonies and the Commonwealth towards which, I fully agree, we have a great obligation, and, secondly, to the Western Alliance, in which we hold a unique position, and to Europe, from which we are in danger of being excluded, with which at the moment, as has been said, our relations are far from good and which is a part of the world which after the war looked to this country for leadership but did not get it. We should not abandon the task of joining in the movement for European unity and making it the type of international organisation which can fit in with other organisations, such as the Commonwealth and the United Nations, and not a purely exclusive and inward-looking association.
    7.20 p.m.
    Sir David Campbell: I should like to ask the forgiveness of the House if, in speaking tonight, I deal almost exclusively with matters specially affecting Ulster. When I contemplated speaking tonight, I did not know that today would be chosen for a foreign affairs debate. Therefore, I hope and trust that the House will forgive me.
    Before turning to Ulster affairs, however, I should like to make one remark about the debate as far as I have heard it tonight. I agree entirely with my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) that it is essential never to forget that we must keep our position, I was going to say as the head of the Commonwealth, but at least of leadership in Commonwealth relations.
    It is also essential that we should continue to be on the most friendly relations with America. Through my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and
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    my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary, the Government have improved our relationship with America and have ensured that the United Kingdom has much more influence on public opinion on world affairs in America than we have had for many years. I also believe that this friendship with America and our position in the Commonwealth do not preclude us from forming part of a united opinion in Western Europe. I believe that all three of these objectives can be achieved and are not incompatible.
    It is possible that I or one of my Ulster colleagues might not have had the opportunity of being called either tomorrow or on Monday or Tuesday and so, having had the good fortune to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, I will confine myself to matters directly concerning Ulster. Before passing to purely Ulster affairs, however, I would say that I and my Ulster colleagues warmly welcomed the references in the Gracious Speech to the Commonwealth, to disarmament, to East-West relations and to the assurance that the Government will give close attention to the social well-being of the people and, in particular, to the needs of the war disabled and their dependants and the old people.
    I noted with great pleasure the introduction of a Bill to deal with pockets of unemployment. I earnestly hope and pray that the Bill will achieve its purpose speedily. I say that knowing that the Bill does not apply to Northern Ireland. It will be for our Northern Ireland Government to introduce such further legislation as they may find necessary to deal with our problems there. We are faced with an acute problem of unemployment in Northern Ireland.
    I and my Ulster colleagues are most grateful to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for his statement during his speech on 27th October, when, referring to unemployment, he said:
    "I give this assurance to my hon. Friends from Northern Ireland: we will press forward in every possible way to help them and their Government in dealing with the problem there."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th October, 1959; Vol. 612, c. 73.]
    Much has been done to cope with this problem and the Northern Ireland Government may well be proud of their record. Since 1945, 144 new projects

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    have been established in Ulster. Fifty-eight factories and 22 extensions to factories have been built by the Government. Eighty of the new factories and factories existing before 1945 have expanded and up to 30th June this year, a total of 37,000 new jobs had been provided by the firms which had received Government assistance, financial or otherwise.
    Regrettably, much remains to be done. Unfortunately, the position is still most serious. In 1958, the average percentage of unemployed in Ulster was 9·3. In 1959, up to October, the average had dropped, I am glad to say, to 7·9, but for a big area 7·9 is a very large unemployment percentage.
    Fears have been expressed that the effect of the new Bill will be to make it more difficult for the Ulster Government to induce new industries to establish themselves in Northern Ireland. It may well be necessary for the Northern Ireland Government to prepare further schemes to deal with our particular problem, and it is a very special problem. Our trouble is that all our raw materials have to be imported and the Channel lies between them and all our exports to other countries. The handling of goods on both sides is a handicap which it is difficult to overcome. If our Northern Ireland Government see their way to introduce further measures to induce new industries to set up, I know that we can rely with confidence on the fullest co-operation and help from Her Majesty's Government and I believe that we can also rely on the help and co-operation of all Members of this House.
    I welcome the assurance that Her Majesty's Government will devote special attention to the future of the aircraft industry. In Northern Ireland, we have in the Short and Harland enterprise, an aircraft factory with first-class facilities, an able planning staff and a most efficient body of craftsmen. I ask our new Minister of Aviation to assure us that he will do everything possible to ensure a prosperous future for Short Bros. and Harland and will devise means to remove the threat of redundancy.
    I am glad to note that in the case of certain other aircraft factories where it was necessary to reduce the number of employees, it was possible in a very short period to place them in comparable
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    jobs in their own locality. Most unfortunately, that was not possible in Northern Ireland.
    I also welcome the assurance that the well-being of those whose living depends upon the land will remain one of the first cares of the Government and that the system of guaranteed prices and the long-term assurances in the Agriculture Act, 1957, will be continued. Agriculture is the backbone of Ulster, not only from the viewpoint of the material well-being of Ulster. We are greatly dependent upon our agricultural industry. The small and medium-sized farms of Ulster produce a fine specimen of manhood and it would be a great loss, not only to Ulster, but to the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth, if that source of manhood were to dry up.
    I now turn to a matter which is of vital importance to our well-being in Ulster. I refer to the continued evil activities of terrorist organisations. The General Election made it abundantly clear that the people of Northern Ireland, irrespective of political outlook, are overwhelmingly opposed to terrorist methods. In spite of the elimination of Sinn Fein at the polls, there have been, I regret to say, since the election, three terrorist attacks, the evil men escaping as usual across the border. The Eire Government have declared their opposition to terrorist activities, but have not taken any positive and effective steps to deal with the terrorist organisations which use the Republic as a recruiting and training ground for raids across the border.
    I demand—and I speak for all my Ulster Unionist colleagues—from Her Majesty's Government a definite assurance that no further concessions in the matter of trade or otherwise will be granted to the Eire Government until they have taken definite and effective action to suppress the Irish Republican Army and the other terrorist organisations and have rendered it impossible for evil-doers, having committed acts of violence in Ulster, to seek safe sanctuary in Eire.
    This is a debate on foreign affairs and I do not expect a reply from the Government benches this evening to my request either for an assurance about the Short and Harland aircraft factory, or for a definite assurance regarding assistance to

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    Eire, so long as they do not take effective action against the terrorist movement, but I hope that the Government will give me and my Ulster Unionist colleagues satisfactory replies to these questions in the near future.
    7.32 p.m.
    Mr. John Hynd: [hope that the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Sir D. Campbell) will not expect me to follow him into the ramifications of the Irish border question on this occasion.
    I want to make it quite clear at the beginning that, should I inadvertently be led into any implied criticism of the Prime Minister or other Minister, I have not given notice of such criticism. I hope that that will be overlooked on this occasion. I must say that I was disappointed in the speech of the Foreign Secretary to this extent. We are a new Parliament. We are facing many old problems in Europe and in the world, and one would have thought that a number of new problems and many of the old problems would be faced with a new urge and spirit, but there was nothing, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) said, in the Foreign Secretary's speech to suggest that there was any general appreciation of the situation to be given either to this House or to the world, which I should have thought would have been appropriate on this occasion.
    All that we got from the Foreign Secretary when pressed on particular issues about the Government's attitude was, "You have been told it before. It has been said over and over again. I will only repeat what I have said previously "or words to this effect. It was rather depressing that that should be the opening of the first speech by the Foreign Secretary in a new Parliament. A particular point addressed to him in connection with the cold war situation in Europe was on the attitude of the Government to the question of disengagement. Again, we got the reply from the Foreign Secretary, "We have made our position clear over and over again. We do not accept the conceptions of disengagement which have been discussed in various quarters."
    I am no great enthusiast for disengagement as a cure-all for the problems of
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    the cold war. I fully realise the risks and dangers which may be involved in many of the forms of disengagement that have been suggested. I fully understand that there is a great deal to be said for the case that the confrontation of the two great forces in Europe has maintained peace along the border for some fifteen years whereas a similar border situation between Jordan and Israel, where there have not been these great forces confronting each other, has resulted in repeated incursions from one side or the other and one major war. I can see all the arguments to make us cautious about the forms that disengagement may take.
    I should have thought that after fifteen years of complete failure to find any solution to this question the Government might have been prepared to say that, from amongst the many proposals made by Mr. Rapacki, by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, even by Sir Anthony Eden at the Berlin Conference, and others, at least we could discuss these and see what is involved and whether or not they could lead to something more practical, rather than accept the present deadlock. Yet we accept the stagnation and are prepared to reject any such constructive proposals as might be put forward. I think that is unfortunate and a depressing sort of attitude to these matters. I hope that the Government will consider this more deeply and that if they reject the proposals made for any kind of disengagement arrangement in Europe, at least they will come forward with some alternative proposals which they can submit to the Russians at the first opportunity.
    I want to spend what time I have not on these vital issues but on the rather more restricted issue of the European situation. I am delighted that the Foreign Secretary and my hon. Friend on the Front Bench and others devoted a considerable part of their speeches to discussing the importance of the developments which have taken place in Europe, centred around the Common Market and the other related institutions. I am disappointed, however, that neither my hon. Friend on the Front Bench nor the Foreign Secretary had any suggestion about what we could do about this.

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    There has been a great deal of criticism of the record of the present Government in connection with these European developments. Hon. Members on both sides have said that we have had far too few debates on this subject during the last three or four years. I must remind the Government that there have been repeated demands for debates from both sides of the House, which have been generally rejected, and the rejection often accepted in good grace by those of us who have pressed for the debates because we were assured that they might upset attempts made to create a Free Trade Area.
    It was only a few years ago when over 200 Members of the House on both sides signed a Motion calling on the Government to make a constructive move in this direction by taking part in the Messina Conference. That was a very considerable proportion of Members from both sides of the House. I think the record will show that the numbers on either side were nearly equal. The Government did not take that opportunity, and we know what has happened as a result. We have found ourselves again kept out, quite unnecessarily, in my opinion, and it has been a repetition of the deplorable history of this demand on the part of the United Kingdom for "the closest possible associations, short of full membership", which we have had in connection with the Coal and Steel Community, the Common Market and everything else.
    When one hears this kind of phrase repeated over and over again every time the European countries have made proposals and begged us to come in and take the lead in this unification of Europe, one can understand that they are getting a little tired of it and a little bitter about it because it does not ring true.
    I will recall one or two reasons why it does not ring true. It was, after all, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill), the present Prime Minister, and the Minister of Aviation who took the lead in the great Hague Conference—of 1948, I believe it was—and in summoning Parliamentarians and other public people from all over the Western European countries, including our own, to move the resolutions calling for the unification,
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    not only economic but political, of Europe, and in which it was made plain that Great Britain was to play a leading part. They pursued their European movement. They developed a campaign throughout Europe encouraging leading European statesmen, Parliamentarians and others to take up this great idea, which was linked, of course, with the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford during the war for common citizenship between this country and France, and other ideas of that kind. They used to lash the Labour Government for not taking a positive line on this.
    Then came the 1951 election, and the right hon. Gentleman found himself in office with his two colleagues who had taken a leading part in this campaign, and that movement and those activities were dropped. Europeans have not forgotten the right hon. Gentleman's historic speech at Strasbourg when he called for the establishment of a European army which would dispose of all national armies, bringing them all together in one great defence force under a common command, in which, in his own words, as I remember them, "Britain would play her full part." The European army conception was developed, and again, when the the right hon. Gentleman became Prime Minister, he told the Europeans, "We should like to have the closest possible association short of full membership."
    One knows what happened to the E.D.C. proposal. The E.D.C. proposal, as I have said often, and as many other Members on both sides have said, was one positive step for preventing the independent rearmament of Germany which otherwise was an inevitable development. It was worked out and accepted in principle and then in detail by the European countries. We were again begged to come in and to take the lead. Again the Government under the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford rejected it, with the result that France, which had been one of the chief advocates, hesitated at the last moment to go into it with only Germany and one or two smaller countries associated with it. It was understandable. I am quite satisfied that France would have been delighted to have ratified the European Defence Community if we had

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    been prepared to do so as well. It was not altogether surprising that France should not have gone into a European Defence Community under a common command with, in effect, Germany alone. It was a little too much to expect at that stage particularly.
    So E.D.C. collapsed, and the then Prime Minister, Sir Anthony Eden, gathered a lot of credit for running about trying to get a second-best. I must say that the praise which was heaped on him at the time for having achieved a second-best, the Paris Agreements, always struck me as a little curious, when he was one of those responsible for destroying the best and only finding a second-best. So we were left with the Paris Agreements.
    Then the Common Market developed. Many hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House as well as this pressed the Government to go into the original Messina discussions. What was the answer? The usual answer: "We should like to be associated with this but we do not want to be full members." In other words, we should like to have all the advantages and none of the responsibilities. At least, that is how our answer was interpreted in Europe.
    We made all kinds of excuses. We had Commonwealth obligations, we had our agriculture to consider. If we went into this thing we should find our country flooded with cheap agricultural produce from Europe and so destroy our farming industry which we must defend and subsidise because one of these days we might find ourselves in another six years' war and surrounded by U-boats—a curious conception in modern conditions, but nevertheless the only apparent excuse for subsidising and defending an uncompetitive agricultural industry. Anyhow, those were the two reasons given. We had responsibilities to the Commonwealth and the need to defend and protect our own agricultural industry.
    What happened at the Messina Conference? France went there. France has her agricultural problems and France has overseas territories. In the discussions at Messina, France was able to get a provision included in the Common Market agreements to cover those two problems in a special way. Those agreements were subsequently ratified by the various Parliaments, and what we did
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    in effect by not going into the discussions at Messina was to force the six Common Market countries to set up a Common Market agreement which suited every member which took part, but naturally was not suited to our special problems, whereas if we had gone to the first conference there is no reason at all why we could not, as was the case with France, have got our special problems of the Commonwealth and our agriculture covered, as France did, with a completely satisfactory arrangement which would have suited not only ourselves but the six Common Market countries and the Scandinavian countries, too.
    The situation has thus developed where a Common Market exists and we are outside, and it is quite clear from the speech of the Foreign Secretary and the speech of my hon. Friend—and from speeches of other hon. Members who have not taken sufficient interest in this in the past—that we have got ourselves in an extremely difficult position because of this lack of positive action in those developments which we ourselves initiated.
    Not only that, but it is also quite clear from what has been said by many Members today that not only have we got ourselves into very serious economic difficulties but, what is probably even more important, into very serious political difficulties with the very people who have been begging us to associate with them and even take the lead in these historic developments.
    As I said, our main argument against the Common Market was that we had our agriculture and the Commonwealth to consider, but then came the Atomic Energy Authority, the Euratom Agreement. We were asked to take part in that, and we were the people who could have given a lead. We were the only ones in Europe who could provide the "know-how", the raw material, the separating plants and the rest. Again, we refused to go in. Why? We took precisely the same attitude in an entirely different situation. We said, "We want to be associated with this, but do not want to be full members. We want the closest possible association short of full membership." Why? What has Euratom got to do with the Commonwealth or our agriculture?

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    These are our historical arguments, but our going into the Euratom Agreement would not affect the Commonwealth or our agriculture. It would have given this country the opportunity of taking a lead in and being at the centre of this great new development in Western Europe, the only area in the world dependent upon imports from overseas for its main power resources, the one part of the world where, above all, it is vital that it should find ways and means of producing adequate power within its own confines without having to depend upon Suez canals or Colonel Nassers, or even American shipping.
    Here was our great opportunity, and we threw it away, and it had nothing to do with the Commonwealth or agriculture. Again we took the same attitude. How, do hon. Members think, do Europeans react to that? They say, whether they are right or wrong, that it is quite clear to them that the British arguments about this mean simply that Britain thinks she has got to have a special place in the world, she is different from Europe, and that she has got to have a special position. Whether this is so or not, that is what so many Europeans think.
    What have we lost by not participating in the Euratom Agreement? What was the real reason why we did not take part? Agriculture and the Common wealth had nothing to do with it. It was, clearly—this has been admitted in many arguments and discussions in which I have taken part—that we did not want to give away our "know-how" and our lead. That is a most remarkable attitude. This country, above all others, ought to know from history that if one has the "know-how" one had better share it with other countries as soon as possible to get their co-operation rather than try to keep it to oneself. One may build the first experimental factories, railways or whatever it may be, and then a few years later all the other countries begin to get the "know-how" and by then they are able to benefit from one's own experience of the original, primitive plants.
    Over and over again we have found ourselves in this position. We have built the first railways, sunk the first mines or built the first type of a certain
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    plant. A few years later, other people have taken up the idea and made better developments because they could see where our weaknesses were. Our position is then that we are faced with the problem of scrapping the lot and building again in more modern fashion, thus wasting another large sum of capital, which private enterprise does not like doing, or carrying on with out-of-date plant in competition with foreign modern plant.
    Here was our opportunity to go in with Euratom and to provide the materials and the central stations, and show others how to do it and ourselves give a lead. By that means, if one wishes to take a purely selfish point of view, we might have captured the market. However, one of the results of our not joining Euratom is that Europe is not so much interested in British materials and plants and is looking to America. Therefore, keeping our know-how has not got us very far.
    One need only consider the great potentialities of this great development. We have only a limited quantity of local power and we depend essentially on overseas shipments of oil and other things. Here we had an opportunity to set up central separating plants, and so on, within the European area, to feed the whole market, including Great Britain, ultimately from central plants. What will happen now? Europe will build its own, whether in Germany, Belgium or France I do not know. However, one separating plant will probably be adequate, and it will have a vast market. This little island on the shores of Europe has vast plants also, but a very small market. We could provide much more power. We could probably have fed the whole of Europe with atomic energy. But we shall be left, comparatively a small community, with all this great power at our disposal and no means of using it. That is an unnecessary and deplorable situation for us.
    It all stems from the attitude that we have maintained all along, that Britain somehow has to be the leading party in all these things, that we must have a special position and are not going to take on the responsibilities of these other countries. Why do we take this attitude today when we know that it cannot be maintained?

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    The key has been given in remarks by the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister made reference to the importance of European unity and of our being associated with it. He said that we want more and more freer and freer trade throughout the world. That is the key. Our whole approach to these great issues has been one of the economic advantages that we can get out of them. In so far as that freer trade might damage our agricultural industry or some other industry we should have the right to make reservations and put up barriers; in other words, we should protect anything special that we have and try to exploit the other parties to our own purely economic advantage. I do not object at all to trying to find more and more freer and freer trade, and even, if necessary, trying to protect what we think we ought to protect. But that is a matter of commercial bargaining, and has nothing to do with the European idea.
    This economic approach is a question of trying to get the maximum advantage out of economic haggling. That way is not the way to build up sound basic friendships. By that means we might get advantages, but the other fellow may be upset because one has beaten him in the bargaining. Thus, one may create animosities, but it is a legitimate part of economic warfare.
    The European idea, however, was not inspired by the thought of economic advantages to any individual country. It was not an economic idea at all basically. The economic implications of it, however important, were secondary. The inspiration of the European idea, as it was expressed by the right hon. Member for Woodford, the present Prime Minister and some of his colleagues when in opposition, as expressed by M. Spaak, M. Coty, M. Guy Mollet and a whole range of leading people in Europe, including the present West German Foreign Secretary, was the great political conception of destroying for ever the divisions between France and Germany, Belgium and Germany, and so on, which have led so often by the very clash of economic interests to the political clashes which have brought about world wars.
    There was a tremendous opportunity when France, Germany, Belgium, Italy and all these countries which had pre-
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    viously been at each other's throats came together and said, "Let us forget all this; let us get together in one single community", as England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales have got together, and as every civilised country has developed throughout history from smaller into larger communities, eliminating divisions and feuds within those communities.
    That was the great conception, the grand design. I do not pretend that the Labour Government achieved much more or were a great deal more forthcoming than the present Government. This is not now a political issue, but I hope it soon will be. However, the Labour Government did not promise the Europeans more than they intended to give them. We did not encourage them to take steps which we were not prepared to take along with them. The Labour Government were at least quite honest and straight with the Europeans in telling them why we hesitated to go in with them, whereas the Conservative Government bear all the responsibility for originally encouraging these movements and subsequently deserting them. This is the situation in which we find ourselves, and the great question is what we are to do about it.
    Just now I said that at the moment this is not an issue between the two parties. I only wish it were, and I hope that the Labour Party will very soon take a positive lead on it, because one party or another will be forced to take a lead some time. I believe that if one is given it will be a lead which will immediately enhance the prestige of our country throughout Europe, awaken again some of the inspiration of the years immediately following the war, eliminate most of the difficulties which have been created between ourselves and the European countries, and, above all, give a tremendous inspiration to the youth of this country as it has done to the youth of Germany, Belgium, France and Italy. The sooner we make it a political issue, the better for all concerned.
    What are we to do about it? Our refusal to go to the Messina Conference has forced the six countries to get together in a form which makes it almost impossible for us to join them now. The Free Trade Area proposals are quite irrelevant to the general conception of European unity which is embodied in

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    the Common Market conception, bur-atom and the rest. I do not think that the step which has been taken by the Minister who has been given the name "Mr. Europe"—a most curious name for a man who has completely failed to get us anywhere with Europe—the conception of the Northern tier, will be a great help in bridging this gulf.
    On more than one occasion in this House I have recommended when we were in a position in which the Free Trade Area proposals were clearly not getting us anywhere that we should call a meeting of the Scandinavian countries with ourselves to discuss some means by which we could agree on a common approach to the Common Market countries to ascertain whether we could get a special association with them which would lead us into full membership at some stage if that cannot be done immediately.
    I did not anticipate that the Government would go as far as they have gone in getting the Scandinavian countries to set up what appears to many Continental countries to be a rival Free Trade Area. Whether this is intended as a bridge or as a challenge is anybody's guess. Naturally, the Government will say that it was intended to be a bridge, but, not unnaturally, a lot of European people think it is intended as a challenge. The fact remains that there is a big danger that it will develop into a challenge and fail to become a bridge.
    Therefore, I ask the Government whether, in these circumstances, in view of the fact that we bear the chief responsibility for this situation and that it is apparently impossible for us to join the Common Market immediately on the present conditions, and equally impossible to ask the Common Market countries to dissolve the Common Market at this stage and go through all the procedure of arranging a new set-up, which they would have to have re-ratified in their Parliaments, where there might be many difficulties, they will now approach this in an entirely new spirit.
    Let them not regard it as basically an economic question; let them forget that the Free Trade Area negotiations ever took place and give up the idea of merely trying to get the best bargain for this country and trying to protect our personal
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    interests. Let them make a new approach along with the Scandinavians to the Common Market countries with a view to trying to find a basis on which we can, as we can only do at the moment, have a much closer association and accept much more of the responsibilities, even accepting the surrender of some of our, sovereignty on such a basis as will enable us ultimately and gradually, to become absorbed as a member of the new community.
    I think it is important that we should do this. If the Government do not think it a practical proposition, might we at least ask them what it is that they are proposing to do, because if they continue to insist on the purely economic approach of attempting to get the maximum advantage we can get from this association with these countries for our own benefit, and without accepting any of the responsibilities which the Common Market countries have undertaken, we are going to create more animosity against ourselves in Europe rather than improve the position.
    Therefore, if the Government cannot make the kind of approach such as I have suggested, will they tell us what they propose to do? Will they bear in mind what should have become clear to them now, that we cannot get out of this situation—I am quite sure everybody is agreed that we must get out of the present situation—unless this country is prepared to make some sacrifices of the sort so willingly and admirably made by France, Germany, Belgium, Italy and the others, not for the purpose of enhancing their own immediate economic interests, but to build together a family of nations which will eventually become merged in a new Common European community, which, I am quite sure, would be able to face up either to the United States or to the Soviet Union?
    8.3 p.m.
    Sir Fitzroy Maclean: It was not my intention originally to take part in this debate, but I was tempted to do so by some remarks of the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget).
    I thought that all of his speech was entertaining, and I agree with a good deal of it, but I think he was less than fair in what he said about the Prime Minister's trip to Moscow. I think he

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    was particularly unfair in comparing that trip with an earlier trip undertaken by an earlier Prime Minister to another place, the name of which also begins with a capital M. Whatever the party opposite may think about my right hon. Friend, nobody could fairly accuse him of having been an appeaser, either then or now.
    Mr. Paget: I did not say that. I said that is what the Germans said. They drew the resemblance, which appeared in all their newspapers.
    Sir F. Maclean: If the hon. and learned Gentleman reads his own speech in HANSARD, and if he has not changed it in the interval—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order."]—he will see that in terms he came very near to saying what I have said he said. He talked about an ultimatum, and implied that it was a disgraceful thing for a British Prime Minister to talk to a foreign Government under the threat of an ultimatum. What he has to remember is that there is a very great difference between the dictator to whom my right hon. Friend was talking and the dictator with whom we had to deal in 1938 and 1939, and that a certain difference of approach is indicated.
    I would say, as one indication of the success of his mission, that the ultimatum has since pretty well been withdrawn. It has disappeared; it has been forgotten. That was not so before the war; the Prime Minister went, but the ultimatum remained. It is largely as a result of that visit to Moscow that we have the present loosening-up of the situation, which I should have thought was welcomed by both parties.
    Certainly, I do not want to emulate the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), nor descend to his level of party political abuse, but there was a good deal said about the Summit by both sides during the election. I thought that in these exchanges we came out of it rather better, because I think the party opposite was trying to catch up the whole time and make out that the Summit talks, and talks with the Russians, had been their idea and never was our idea. I remember that a parallel thing happened four or five years ago, when the word "Summit" was coined by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wood-
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    ford (Sir W. Churchill), and that he came in for a lot of abuse from the party opposite because he suggested that it might be a good idea to talk to the Russians.
    I was fortunate enough to follow the Prime Minister to Moscow a week or two after he had been there, and to be able to judge to some extent personally. I went with the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) to try to negotiate a cultural agreement—indeed, to negotiate it, because we got the agreement. We found not a bad atmosphere, quite a receptive atmosphere, and I think it was because the Prime Minister had gone there and had talked to Mr. Khrushchev as man to man, and I think that that brought very great benefits. This is the right way to deal with the Russians. I think we ought to go and talk to them. I do not think we ought to be afraid of them, or that one ought to run away from them, as a curate might from a prostitute. There is nothing very terrible about them, and if anybody, as I hope to show later in my speech, has to be afraid of the results of contacts between our two countries it is the Russians far more than us.
    Until last year I had not been to Russia for twenty years. I knew it fairly well in 1937, 1938 and 1939. Those years were the time when what is now called Stalinism reached its height, and the atmosphere there was extraordinarily unpleasant. To put it mildly, everybody lived in terror of everybody else and what people were most afraid of were their contacts of any kind with foreigners. When I went back last year and again this year, I was struck by great changes—material changes, a certain improvement in the standard of living and so on—but the change which struck me most was the fact that people were no longer so afraid and were now ready to talk to foreigners. A general loosening-up had taken place. The old atmosphere of fear still existed to some extent, but to nothing like the same extent, and, most important of all, it is now possible to talk to the Russians.
    That is why I am in favour of the Summit Conference. That is why I was in favour of the Prime Minister going to Moscow. It is most important that we should talk to the Russians at all levels and have all the contacts we can with them on equal terms. We do not

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    want to appease them and we cannot expect them to try to appease us—that would be too much to hope for. As long as we bear in mind that for every concession we make we must demand a counter-concession, I do not think we can come to much harm.
    There are various reasons for the loosening-up that has taken place. It is partly due to the personality of Khrushchev, who is a very different type of man from Stalin. I think he realises that it is not possible to run a modern technological State with many hundred millions of helots. I think he realises that if there is to be production of Luniks and Sputniks, and so on, there has to be an educated class, and the moment there is people will think for themselves.
    That is one reason. The other reason is that the Soviet Government feel that now they are able, or soon will be able, to face the capitalist non-Communist world on its own terms. I am certain that they do not want a hot war. One reason why they do not want it is that they realise there is nothing in it for them, any more than there is anything in it for us. The other reason why they do not want a hot war is that they reckon that they can quite well win the cold war or peaceful co-existence or competitive existence or whatever we call it. That is a challenge we can accept.
    We on this side of the House, and I should imagine many hon. Gentlemen opposite, believe that our system is immensely superior to the Soviet system, and when it comes to meeting it on equal terms I see no reason why we should not come out of it better than they do. We have nothing to be afraid of, and that is why I advocate more contacts at all levels with the Russians.
    My own view is that the more fresh air that is let into the Soviet Union, the more contacts they have with the outside world, the more freedom they enjoy in their own country, the more likely the Russians are as a nation and as a Government to evolve into something easier to live with than they are at present. I believe that the more say the ordinary people in Russia have in their own affairs the more likely they are to use their influence in the cause of peace, and the more prosperity they have the less likely they are to want war.
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    I do not for a moment think that this is something sudden. It is a gradual process, and I think we should not be too optimistic. We are probably in for a very tough time in the next ten or twenty years and I believe we shall be subjected to all kinds of pressure—economic, political and even military—all over the world, because that is the basis of Soviet policy. I believe, however, that if we can hold our own socially, politically, economically and, as far as the cold war is concerned, militarily for the next ten or twenty years, there is a good chance that at the end of the time the worst of our troubles will be over.
    8.15 p.m.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: I welcome the intervention of the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean) into our debates, because he has now become a Member for the opposite end of Ayrshire, which the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Manuel) and myself represent. We shall be very glad indeed to use our influence to guide him a little further on the road along which he has travelled tonight. In fact, we all seem to be fellow-travellers these days.
    As the House knows, I was fortunate to accompany the Prime Minister on his famous tour of the Soviet Union. I found there that the right hon. Gentleman, under the influence of Mr. Khrushchev and the environment of the country, made speeches which would have staggered hon. Gentlemen opposite if I had made them at election time. Indeed, I would not dream of making in this House speeches such as those I heard the Prime Minister make at the Soviet Embassy. I was extremely pleased with the ideological development of the Prime Minister in the U.S.S.R.
    For example, I heard the right hon. Gentleman say in the British Embassy, when paying a remarkable tribute to Mr. Khrushchev, that Mr. Khrushchev had been responsible for the greatest constructive work in history. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire would go as far as that. I also heard the right hon. Gentleman, in the same speech, under the influence of Mr. Khrushchev, describe the work of the Soviet Government as pointing to the Promised Land.

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    If any hon. Member wishes to find out exactly what other things the Prime Minister said in this remarkable mission I can say, perhaps with some humility, that I have incorporated them all in a book called The Pilgrim's Progress in Moscow, which I commend to the hon. Gentleman who now represents a part of Ayrshire. Indeed, if he continues to develop his ideological pilgrim's progress, by the end of this Parliament he will join the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire and myself, and the only Member who will remain anti-Communist will be the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ayr (Sir T. Moore), for whom I cannot hold out any hope.
    I welcome this new understanding and attempt to understand the need for having useful contacts with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Like the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire, I have been a student of events in the Soviet Union for many years. Also, like him, I have seen the Soviet Union develop from famine conditions, as he saw them in 1931, and conditions of terror as we saw them in 1931, into something which is really hopeful that Russia will emerge as a great civilised influence in the modern world.
    I do not say this because I am a Communist, although they call me a Communist at election times. In fact, I was called a Communist by a candidate of the party opposite, Mr. Patrick Maitland, at the recent election. He said that I, "a notorious Communist", had entered the constituency to help the hon. Lady who eventually happened to be elected. I said that I did not mind being called a Communist, as long as he did not insult me by calling me a Conservative. Although we cannot say that we are all Communists now, because we are different ideologically, there is a common attitude of toleration and understanding which I hope will lead to the acceptance by this country of the idea of co-existence, so that the world will be saved from the final calamity of a third world war.
    I read with great interest Mr. Khrushchev's speech to the General Assembly of the United Nations. I would commend it to hon. Members on both sides of the House as one of the most interesting speeches in international
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    politics that we have had for a generation. I believe that Mr. Khrushchev's speech was perfectly honest and candid. I believe that he is looking forward to a world in which the Soviet Union, the United States of America and ourselves will move together away from what is called the cold war towards an era in which the enormous amount of money that is now being spent upon the development of hydrogen bombs and armaments can be utilised to raise the standard of living of the people of the Soviet Union, Western Europe and the backward countries of the world. I would have liked to have a more positive statement of this plan from the Government.
    I hope that everybody will follow the reaction of the Leader of the Opposition when he asked us in the middle of the election campaign—as did the Foreign Secretary—not to dismiss the Khrushchev speech as mere propaganda, but to take it as a definite basis for negotiation. I wish that we had had more of that kind of talk at the election because, especially towards the end of the campaign, political discussion sank to a rather low level. I do not know whether the hon. Members have seen a copy of my election address, but I can assure them that I did not sink to that level. When the Soviet rocket was approaching the moon we were talking about Purchase Tax on pots and pans and Income Tax There was a good deal of pettifogging talk in the campaign.
    I wish that the election had been fought upon a constructive international approach of abandoning the whole strategy of the H-bomb and giving a whole-hearted acceptance of the fundamental idea underlying the Khrushchev speech, and of saying that this country, too, was going to stop spending the enormous sums of money that we are now spending on arms and was going to devote its genius, money and brains towards helping in a great constructive effort to obtain a higher civilisation in the world.
    What shall we do otherwise? I do not believe that we shall ever catch up with the Soviet Union in the arms race. Since the time when the hon. Member went to the Soviet Union, in 1931, enormous changes have taken place in education in the U.S.S.R. Whatever mistakes have

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    been made by her Governments in international and other spheres, one mistake they did not make was to neglect the education of the young. Today, the managers of the factories and the planners in the Soviet Union are extremely well-educated people. They are pouring out of the universities, and I can see no possibility of winning the cold war against the Soviet Union.
    So we have to turn our attention to working out an international policy which will enable us to reach an agreement with the Soviet Union and so end the cold war. I entirely agree about the need for coming to an understanding with Russia about Germany. The policy of disengagement and the acceptance of that principle is the way to bring about a lessening of anxiety in Central Europe. I remember following the Prime Minister to a collective farm about 20 or 30 kilometres from Kiev. The Prime Minister listened to accounts of the development of the collective farm, as given to him by the collective farmer. The farmer told how, after the years of famine and revolution, the collective farm had steadily been built up, only for all the cattle and the majority of the personnel to be taken away to slave labour when Hitler attacked Russia. The farm had then been reduced to dust and ashes. Gradually, the people had come back since then, and had built the farm up again from scratch. There, in the story of that collective farmer, was contained the whole root of the suspicion that exists that, once again, there may come this onslaught from Germany. That is always at the back of the mind of the Russian.
    I do not grudge the Prime Minister any credit that may be given him for his venture into the Soviet Union. I remember him when he was at the airport at Kiev. He had learned a few words of Russian. I do not know whether he knew that I was listening to him, but as he passed by the crowd he said over and again in Russian, "I wish you success." That was said in the real spirit of international statesmanship. He has created this mood of understanding with the Soviet Union—and I wish him good luck in his attempts to persuade Dr. Adenauer, General de Gaulle and other international leaders to adopt the same standpoint—but something more has to be
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    done than that. We have to reduce all the platitudes to a policy. That is the difficulty with hon. Members opposite. I can conceive that in a spirit of realism President Eisenhower and Mr. Khrushchev might come to some kind of agreement. What will happen then? When the news came that Mr. Khrushchev was going to America and President Eisenhower was going to the Soviet Union, the price of shares in the great electronics industry fell on Wall Street and the price of shares went down in sympathy—if that is the word—on the Stock Exchange. I can foresee the time when there will be a struggle not so much across the Floor of this House, but inside the Conservative Party itself, because the Prime Minister may come along and say, "We are going forward with a plan for disarmament." Then, all the vested interests that flourish on armaments, which have been so well described by my hon. Friends, will use all their subtle influence in the Press and in the party opposite to prevent disarmament from becoming a practical reality because it would affect certain financial vested interests.
    To me, that is one of the problems which is likely to arise both in America and in this country. If the Prime Minister makes a bold stand against the vested interests in armaments in the Conservative Party I will give him my loyal support.
    Mr. P. Williams: Will the hon Gentleman agree that when there was a degree of reduction in Government expenditure on armaments not so long ago, a reduction in the use of ordnance factories, the shouts came from his side of the House.
    Mr. Charles Pannell: That is not true.
    Mr. Williams: Oh, yes, it is.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Well, this side of the House covers a wide geographical and political area and I cannot be responsible for every shout which comes from this side of the House. I gather that the shouts from this side of the House about the ordnance factories being closed was not because the factories were being closed, but because the Government have not provided an alternative constructive policy.
    I desire the Government to have an economic policy which will result in disarmament being carried through with

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    an automatic change-over from ordnance or dockyards to factories for producing useful things and to shipyards where our mercantile fleet may be modernised and things of that kind.
    I remember that during the General Election campaign a question was put to me from members of a body called the Navy League—they were optimists, writing to me. They asked whether I would be in favour of new aircraft carriers, torpedo boats and frigates and the whole paraphernalia of naval vessels. My reply was that the Navy League was as obsolete as the Jacobites. If the League had any votes in Ayrshire, I lost them. I suggested that I should be prepared to spend the money now being spent on the Navy on modernising the Mercantile Marine and building harbours which are so badly needed on the West Coast of Scotland. So, although I may have lost the votes of the Navy League, I gained the votes of the fishermen.
    This situation presents us with a new problem, the whole reorientation of politics. If we are to get disarmament, and the Prime Minister reduces the £1,500 million spent on armaments by one-fifth or one-third, he will be able to build up in this country a new economy and bring new prosperity to the people. If he goes on on those lines, my party will have to have an alternative programme or else we shall be in opposition until the year 2,000. I hope, therefore, that we shall see a completely new attitude adopted towards the Soviet Union and a recognition that a nation which can send rockets to the moon can send rockets to destroy the economic life of America and of this country. For sheer preservation we have to work out a new world plan, a new peace plan, in which the horror dream of war in an atomic age will be banished from the minds of men in the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R., and in which the whole of Western Europe will unite in one gigantic move forward to a great and noble civilisation.
    8.34 p.m.
    Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: I have great sympathy with much of what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes). All hon. and right hon. Members on these benches welcome the
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    pledge given in the Gracious Speech that the Government will support the United Nations and
    "seek to increase its influence."
    But I wish the Government had found another verb to introduce this pious phrase. They say:
    "They will persist in their support of the United Nations."
    "Persist"! I express an ardent hope that in this new Parliament the Government's support for the United Nations will be very different from what it was throughout the last, and that they will purge their minds of the prejudices, the misconceptions and the false values upon which very much of their United Nations' policy was based.
    I want to deal tonight with some matters which have dominated the discussions of the present session of the United Nations Assembly, of which the Foreign Secretary spoke, when he was there and which, I believe, are the gravest long-term problems which confront the world today. Before doing so, may I add a few words to what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), in his admirable speech this afternoon about the deadlock in the Assembly over the Security Council seats.
    I was personally concerned in 1946 with the gentlemen's agreement, or constitutional convention as it was called, that, besides the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe should have another seat. I was not a member of the delegation, but by chance I was in New York when America broke that agreement in 1949 and secured the election of Yugoslavia instead of Russia's candidate, Czechoslovakia. Personally, I thought both those decisions right, although the Government to which I belonged voted over Czechoslovakia the other way.
    In 1949, Stalinist aggression was still mounting and the veto had been very cynically used, but, as my hon. Friend argued, the situation is very different today. Mr. Khrushchev's policy is very different from Stalin's. Poland's situation and her standing are very different from Czechoslovakia's ten years ago. Surely it is disastrous that the Assembly, the major forum of the United Nations, should be frustrated and humiliated by what, after all, is primarily a gesture in the cold war.

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    Looking at it not in terms of military alliance, but in terms of what will best assist the relief of tension in Europe and the world, is it not plain that Poland—whatever the merits of Turkey—ought to be elected? Of course, I think it absurd that the Charter should require a two-thirds majority for such an election, but it does. So the only way out of this crucial dilemma, until we can enlarge the Council, is for somebody to give way. I hope that our delegate will take a lead in voting for Poland and getting others to do so on Monday next.
    I come to the long-term problems with which I want to deal. The first is the United Nations work of economic aid to under-developed nations, of which many hon. Members have spoken today, and the work of Specialised Agencies—the I.L.O., the Food and Agriculture Organisation and the rest. The Foreign Secretary said in the Assembly that all this work was uncontroversial. I wish it were. We think that the agencies and United Nations economic aid get very inadequate support and that Her Majesty's Government set a poor example. I shall not weary the House with a further diagnosis of the evil of world poverty. We have done it often from these benches in recent months. The right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) and my hon. Friend the Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) and others have done it again today.
    Mr. Paul Hoffman, the head of the U.N. Special Fund, has called his task simply staggering and the same word "staggering" was used by Mr. Eugene Black about the task which confronted the International Bank when its capital had been doubled a year ago. Look at this through hostile eyes. A Communist delegate in the U.N. Assembly said the other day that after seventy years of Pan-American co-operation the national income per capita in the Latin-American countries was still ten times lower than in the U.S.A. He said that in the Asian and African countries of the Commonwealth and the French Community the income per capita, after an even longer period, was fourteen times lower than that of Britain and France. "And ironically," he said "this state of affairs is often described as the 'free world'." No one can deny the truth of the general picture which he conveyed.
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    The Government have made some increases in their contributions to some of the various funds set up by the United Nations. They have given £100,000 extra to the High Commissioner for Refugees as their special effort in World Refugee Year. It is a halfpenny per head of our population. They have given another extra £100,000, another halfpenny per head, to the children's fund, U.N.I.C.E.F. We are grateful. We have often urged an increase on them. But we do not think it is very much.
    They have raised our contribution to U.N. Technical Assistance from 2½ million dollars to 3 million dollars. It is something, but considering that in every year since its inception the Commonwealth has received far more from U.N. Technical Assistance than we have paid in, again it is not very much. They have raised our contribution to Mr. Hoffman's Special Fund from 1 million dollars to 5 million dollars, but before we made that pledge the Colonial Office had already submitted schemes to Mr. Hoffman for work in the Commonwealth which would cost him 15 million dollars. There, again, our extra contribution is not very generous, after all.
    Of course, the Government will say, first, as I have already mentioned, that a year ago we doubled our subscription to the International Bank and, secondly, that we are preparing to take part in the International Development Association, with a capital of 1,000 million dollars, which may be established in the early future as an affiliate of the International Bank. Of course, that is much more like business, and if it brings real aid to the underdeveloped countries, the money Votes which have to pass the House will have our full support.
    I should like to ask the Government some questions. Is this I.D.A. to be an affiliate of the International Bank, because that makes it much less likely that the Russians will come in? If so, is not that a lamentable thing? Is the cold war to continue in competitive economic aid? We are preparing to talk serious business to the Russians about disarmament. Cannot we go back to S.U.N.F.E.D., which they supported, and talk serious business to them about how the savings on armaments shall be used?

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    I hope that the Government will answer these questions. We believe that the U.N. itself is the right instrument through which to do the major work of economic aid. We believe that we should endeavour in all this work to eliminate what is a very dangerous aspect of the cold war.
    Next, do the Government realise that what they envisage for the Bank and I.D.A. is far short of what Mr. Hammarskjoeld and Mr. Hoffman estimate to be required? In the first twelve years of its existence the Bank lent less than £1,000 million to the under-developed countries of the world. It lent 600 million dollars to India, or 2 dollars per head. That is less than one-tenth of the extra capital which the advanced countries must provide in the next ten years if Mr. Hoffman's minimum objective is to be achieved.
    Let us face the fact, of which my hon. Friends have spoken, that the gap between the standards of the haves and the have-nots is still growing wider. Mr. Hammarskjoeld never tires of telling us that this is the greatest challenge which the United Nations has to face, and IS am afraid that we think that the Government's proposals, though we welcome their improvement, still fall short of even the most urgent needs.
    That brings me to the second major matter which I want to raise—that of China. As hon. Members have said today, in ten years China has made a greater economic and military advance than perhaps any other nation in the world. When I remember the modern history of Japan and how near Japan came to conquering Asia, I confess that I have nightmares about China. She has nearly 600 million people and an annual intake of troops, if she calls them up, of 12 million. The Chinese have made an arms industry in ten years which, unless I am misinformed, is producing tanks and guns. They claim that by 1961 they will have their own atomic bomb. Even if it is 1965, is there much comfort in that for us? Is this a nation which on the lowest material grounds it is wise to pillory and ostracise? It is very urgent to bring them into the United Nations and to give them the seat in the Assembly and the Security Council which is lawfully theirs.
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    I will not repeat the arguments which I pressed upon the Government a year ago—the general practice of the United Nations; the famous American White Paper of 1949; the words written by Mr. Dulles in the same year:
    "If the Communist Government, over a reasonable period of time, proves its ability to govern China without serious domestic resistance, then it should be admitted to the U.N."
    Is ten years a reasonable time? The language of the Charter is absolutely clear. Article 23 lays down that China, not Formosa, shall be represented as a permanent member of the Security Council. Until China gets that seat we are in flagrant violation of the law ourselves.
    Sir Beverley Baxter: What, then, would be made of Formosa? What would be Formosa's standing once China had replaced it in the United Nations?
    Mr. Noel-Baker: China would have the same standing as every other member—the same standing as Britain, France, the United States and Russia, with a permanent seat in the Security Council. Formosa is quite a different question. The hon. Member perhaps knows that we have for many years proposed that there should be a plebiscite in Formosa. After a period of trusteeship there should be a referendum to discover what the people of Formosa really want. I think that that answers the hon. Gentleman's question.
    People say that China has been creating trouble for her neighbours—brutalising the innocent people of Tibet; making armed attacks across the frontiers of India and Kashmir. No one, not even Russia, condones these reckless acts of violence. But who knows whether they would have happened if China had been accepted when she should have been accepted as a fellow member of the U.N.? How can we demand that the Government in Pekin shall observe the obligations of the Charter if we unlawfully keep them out?
    Who is it that urges now that China shall be given her seat? It is her neighbours—India, Burma, Nepal and Afghanistan, together with Ceylon, Indonesia, Cambodia and many more. I read with care the speech made this year by the British delegate, who argued

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    against dealing with the question in the Assembly. His arguments were utterly demolished by the spokesmen of India, Nepal and others who replied. They think, as we on these benches think, that every extra international complication, every new act of violence, is simply one more argument for bringing the Government of Pekin swiftly into the circle of the U.N. and letting them feel at first hand the solidarity of world opinion against the use of force. We believe that it could still be done this year. The voting in the Assembly was very close. Many good observers assert that a British vote could decide the issue. Until we do it, we are simply repeating the disastrous error we made with Russia forty years ago.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Leek mentioned something else which we might do to relieve tension in the East. We might reconvene the Indochinese Conference, as Russia has proposed. I am not criticising, as perhaps my hon. Friend did, the Security Council for sending a sub-committee to Laos. I believe that that was a right and lawful procedure and that it turned out to be useful.
    Mr. Harold Davies: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. In my speech I did not criticise that action. I said that it may be a contribution, but I would have liked the Geneva Conference. I wish that statement to go on the record.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: I am very much obliged to my hon. Friend. Someone spoke to me at that moment and I missed a phrase or two of what he said.
    I believe that that was right, but is there not something to be said for bringing together at the conference table, Russia and China, America, India and France, and other smaller nations of the East? We found this year over Berlin that it was useful just to sit down and talk. Who knows whether this conference might not lower tension between India and China? As the Foreign Secretary said, we have a special responsibility in the matter since, with Russia, we are co-chairmen of the conference. I believe that both India and China earlier agreed that the conference ought to meet. In any case, I hope that the
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    Government will consider the matter very carefully before they turn it down.
    I come now to what I think is bound to be the greatest issue that this Parliament will discuss—disarmament. Perhaps I may first say a word about procedure. Procedure may be important, as the late and unlamented Disarmament Sub-Committee of the United Nations often showed. That Sub-Committee is dead, and, instead, we are to have the new 10-Power committee outside the framework of the United Nations. I hope that the Government will use this change to bring about some improvements in the way in which the work is done.
    I know that the Foreign Secretary has agreed with me in criticising the procedure in the past. I hope that this new Committee will have proper rules of order. It is a larger body than the Sub-Committee, and without rules of order it can easily fall into chaos. I hope that it will have a proper agenda of work—as the Sub-Committee never had. I hope that it will not change its chairman every day. Above all, I hope that there will be an improvement in the way in which the records of its proceedings reach the light of day.
    There will be ten delegations in the room—is there really any hope that what they say will be kept secret? There is a great danger that angled and distorted versions will reach the public, and may do much harm. The only safeguard against that is to ensure that the true record is published at short intervals—every day, every week, or whatever may be agreed. That, and that alone, will make it possible for hon. Members, the Press, the commentators and the public to know what is going on, and I am sure that the Government will agree that in so vital a matter it is essential that they should.
    I come to the substance of the matter. I shall not talk at all about the record of the Government since 1955. The Foreign Secretary knows what I think about it. It is over. I hope that a new and better chapter may have begun. But I think that not many hon. Members realise the fantastic pace, the immense and deadly momentum that the arms race has acquired in these last four years. It is four years since the Governments represented in the Sub-Committee stopped talking of comprehensive

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    disarmament and turned, instead, to what they called partial measures.
    In those four years there have been fantastic changes in armaments of every kind. These changes have, of course, been brought about by long years of research and experiment, but in those four years there have been the following operational results. The atomic fission bomb has been adapted, in explosive power varying from four kilotons to 500—from one-fifth to twenty-five times the power of the Hiroshima bomb—to the use of every unit of armed force on land, on sea and in the air. When the American troops went into the Lebanon last year there was not one unit that did not have atomic weapons for its use.
    Secondly, the first unliftable thermonuclear device has been transformed, by the process technically known as "miniaturisation," into warheads for inter-continental missiles, and into weapons that can be delivered by fighter bombers. Supersonic bombers have come into service, and bombers with twice, and even three times, the speed of sound are being designed. Missiles of all kinds and ranges have been perfected, and many are operational now. The nuclear-powered submarine is at sea. It may have rendered obsolete, as my hon. Friend said, all other naval vessels of every kind. Biological and chemical weapons have been officially and publicly added to the armoury of the United States and great sums of money are being spent upon them. Many other States, with less publicity, are doing the same. I wish that Ministers would read a grim report about them prepared by leading scientists from eight countries at Pugwash, in August last.
    These developments have resulted from work which lasted many years, but they have come into the range of practical armaments since 1955; and every competent expert is agreed that, if the arms race continues, the rate of progress will certainly not grow less. We used to talk about the Nazis' policy of frightfulness. It is against this background of world-wide frightfulness, mounting and unlimited, that we must consider Mr. Khrushchev's speech in the United Nations.
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    I say at once that I cannot understand how anyone in his senses could hesitate for a moment about accepting the objective which Mr. Khrushchev then proposed—total disarmament, with total control, in the shortest period of years in which it can be done, leaving only the strictly limited national forces needed for internal order, forces which will carry small arms and nothing more.
    I should have thought that there were only three major questions which really mattered. Is he sincere? Does he understand what we mean by total control? Will he be elastic about time and stages if, in discussion, it appears, as I think it would, that four years is too short to make so vast a change?
    Is he sincere? His present proposal is not new. He told the foreign editor of The Times in January, 1958, that he was urging a Summit Conference "in order to achieve a major solution of the disarmament problem", and he gave Mr. Iverach McDonald a sketch, with a lot of details, of the proposals which he put to the Assembly the other day. I wish that Ministers would read again the report of that remarkable interview. Several good judges have warned us that it would be foolish to dismiss Mr. Khrushchev's plan as impractical or insincere—Sir William Hayter, Mr. George Kennan, Mr. Adlai Stevenson, and others. Mr. Stevenson, after a conversation with Mr. Khrushchev a month ago, said that he had never felt so hopeful and that Mr. Khrushchev was only proposing what we had all preached, that is, a disarmed world.
    Does Mr. Khrushchev understand what we mean by total control? Would he be elastic about time and stages? In Moscow, last December, my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) and I had most exhaustive discussions with him and with many of his leading colleagues about inspection and control. They convinced us that they do understand our point of view and that, for real disarmament, they will accept real control in the fullest possible degree. The Foreign Secretary spoke this afternoon about the divergence of the Soviet view that disarmament should come before control and our view that control should come before disarmament. Unless I am much mistaken, the Kremlin will adhere to what it put into its plan for

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    conventional disarmament in March, 1956. I will read the words:
    "The international control organ shall be established within the two months following the entry into force of the agreement. It shall establish its local branches, set up the control posts, and position its inspectors in good time to ensure that they are able to begin carrying out their functions at the moment when States begin the execution of the measures provided for in the agreement."
    The words are:
    "… at the moment when States begin the execution of the measures provided for in the agreement".
    I do not think that we can ask for more than that.
    This being so, and in the light of the forthright words used in the Assembly by Mr. Khrushchev and Mr. Kuznetsov about control, I confess that I was disappointed by the reception which the Government gave to Mr. Khrushchev's speech. I say that in no party spirit. I have supported the Government in the past when I thought that they were right, but I hoped for something better than the tepid generalities which they used.
    I appeal to the Government in all sincerity: do not let the British proposals, the outline which was put forward in the Foreign Secretary's speech to the Assembly, become a rival to Mr. Khrushchev's plans; do not begin the new commission with a lengthy wrangle about objectives and how to start; accept his broad objectives and put in practical and concrete plans where he is vague. The Government may say that that is precisely what the Foreign Secretary did in his speech to the United Nations. As we are to have so little legislation in the coming months, I hope that we shall very soon have a chance to debate his proposals more fully.
    I must say at once, however, that there were three points about his speech which filled me with apprehension. His first stage was most ominously like the Western package plan of 1957, which led to total deadlock. I am afraid that in its present form, if that is to be our start, it might mean more years of barren talk. I suggest that the Government should drop all the arid formulas of the past and should instruct our British experts between now and Christmas to prepare, as I am sure they could, some detailed concrete plans. They could prepare a draft scheme for the consideration
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    of the commission of ten for the control of the "cut-off" in the nuclear plants. They could prepare a definite proposal for how much conventional armament and equipment should be allowed per 10,000 men for the national troops which the governments will retain after the first stage of reduction. That might be a major contribution to success. It might cut out months of general talk. In any case, I find it hard to think that the Foreign Secretary's first stage proposals, as he made them in New York, will lead to any practical result.
    Secondly, I am disturbed by what he said in the Assembly about outer space. He used some words this afternoon about the means of delivery for nuclear weapons, which, if I understood him aright, were rather different and much more encouraging to me. However, I should now like to deal with what he said in the Assembly. No doubt the Minister of State will clear up any misunderstanding.
    I think that it is common ground that the most dangerous developments in the arms race, the developments which it is most urgently necessary to stop, are in supersonic aircraft and in guided and ballistic missiles. The Russians are not behind in aircraft. An American general told Congress the other day that in missiles the Russians are five full years ahead. Missiles are a mortal danger to the British people. Mr. Khrushchev now proposes that all military aircraft and all missiles shall be totally abolished without delay.
    Surely it is the overwhelming interest of the British people to snatch at any chance of getting that done. But I find no reference to missiles in the Foreign Secretary's speech until his third stage; and who knows how many years that will be from now? He says that at the third stage there would be a ban on the use of outer space for military purposes. What does that mean? Supersonic bombers do not use outer space. There are many missiles that do not use it either, such as the Corporal, the Honest John, the Matador and the Snark. Why not try to stop this deadly race, not at the third stage, but as soon as it can possibly be done? There is no problem of control with missiles. Even the smallest anti-aircraft missile weighs a ton. Its manufacture in the

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    workshop could not possibly be concealed from United Nations' inspectors, nor its testing, nor the training of troops in its use.
    My third point is vital. I believe that we shall get no disarmament unless the present nuclear Powers agree, and agree quickly, to the total abolition of all atomic and hydrogen bombs and of all their present stocks. It was on this, above all else, that the United Nations Sub-Committee reached deadlock in 1957. Unless the nuclear Powers can so agree, there may within five or ten years from now, as my hon. Friend so eloquently said, be a dozen nuclear Powers with atomic stockpiles of their own.
    Did the Government read what M. Joxe said the other day, on behalf of the French Prime Minister? He repeated precisely what our Prime Minister said about our H-bomb in 1957, "If others have it, we must have it, too". So it will be with China and then, no doubt, with Japan, India, Germany and Pakistan, and many more.
    What did the Foreign Secretary say in the General Assembly about this vital question of nuclear stocks? At the second stage of his plan, there would be some transfers of fissile material from weapon stocks to peaceful use. Of course, that has got to happen, but we know what difficulties it led to in 1957, when the abolition of stocks was not the accepted aim.
    Then, under the right hon. and learned Gentleman's plan, at the third stage "there should be a re-examination of the possibility of controlling, and then eliminating, the remaining stocks of nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction." Why, in heaven's name, at the third stage? If abolition needs a re-examination, why not start it now? But I am afraid that this whole approach is misconceived. If the Government will not agree on abolition until they have a geiger counter which will detect a secret nuclear stock that is screened with lead and concrete, they may wait for decades, as Mr. Stassen said, or they may wait for ever. Is there nothing we can do but keep our nuclear stocks and watch the numbers of the nuclear Powers increase from year to year? Of course there is.
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    We could abolish the means of delivery, the military aircraft and the missiles without which the nuclear weapons cannot be used. We could abolish the sea, land and air forces without which no Government could embark upon aggressive war. These are the real safeguards, far better and far more certain than any geiger counter. They would remove the whole temptation to keep a secret nuclear stock. The risk involved would be incomparably less than the risk of allowing the nuclear arms race to go on. It is precisely these measures that Mr. Khrushchev has proposed.
    Modern armaments represent a mortal danger for all the peoples. As the Political Committee of the Assembly said in its resolution yesterday, the question of general and complete disarmament is the most important one, as it is the most urgent, facing the world today. As the new commission of ten assembles in Geneva, the nations will be watching and waiting, as they watched and waited while the Disarmament Conference laboured in Geneva, thirty years ago. The greatest opportunity in history was wasted then. After six years of devastating war and fifteen years of agonising peace, another chance has come. We beg the Government, in fervent supplication, not to let it fail.
    9.10 p.m.
    The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. John Profumo): We have had an immensely interesting debate, ranging over a wide number of subjects, and instead of making a set speech I should like to do my best to answer some of the points which have been made.
    We have had some powerful speeches from both sides. One could still see signs of the hustings in the vigorous speeches made. I was rather sorry to hear the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) make such a violent attack on my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary. We are used to hearing a very good and useful contribution from him, but on this occasion I think that his speech was marred by the attack on my right hon. and learned Friend. I do not think that he will lose very much sleep from the attack.
    On the whole, the speeches have been constructive, and I should like to give

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    the House an undertaking that if I am not able to mention them all they will be studied with the greatest possible care. I listened with the closest attention to the speech of the hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey). If I may say so, it was a Cassandra-like speech. He went all round the world making mischief and prophesying woe. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] He did it quite cleverly, and, in parts, with great charm. None the less, it was a prophecy of woe and disaster.
    Mr. Harold Davies: That is unfair.
    Mr. Profomo: I will give the House some examples so that it can judge whether or not I am being unfair. The hon. Gentleman talked about the dangers of a Summit Conference. Indeed, there are dangers, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean) said, it was really the party opposite which has been putting forward for so long the view that the answer to every problem lies in a Summit meeting. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes, indeed. The sooner it happens the better, and it did not matter according to some of their speeches whether any preparation was made in advance or not.
    Now the hon. Gentleman suddenly professes to have become acutely aware of all its dangers. He talked about the dangers of an interim settlement on Berlin. Yet the impression which his right hon. Friends and he sought to give after their return from Moscow was that if they had been in charge of affairs an interim agreement would have been made immediately obtainable. He grossly exaggerated the ease with which countries could become nuclear military powers. He talked about the division between China and the Soviet Union and between Poland and the Soviet Union, neither very wise topics for a Western spokesman, and division between the nuclear countries and the Continental Powers. He alleged that the United States was mediating between Britain and Continental Europe and, when challenged by my right hon. and learned Friend to give examples, he produced the ridiculous answer that they were mediating for the Summit. He knows perfectly well that they were certainly not mediating for the Summit.
    On the question of better relations with Europe, the last thing that we on this
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    side of the House are is complacent. My right hon. and learned Friend has talked about the importance of recreating confidence. The worst way to recreate confidence is to talk about disengagement. The hon. Member knows very well that it is anathema to our European Allies, particularly to France and Germany. He knows quite well that Her Majesty's Government have never favoured disengagement. We do not believe in a grey intermediate area in the centre of Europe which might add to insecurity.
    Our criteria for any agreement in Europe are that the forces of military security must not be changed to our disadvantage, N.A.T.O. must be maintained, and nothing should be done inconsistent with the continued presence of United States forces in Europe.
    Mr. Healey: I agree.
    Mr. Profumo: I am glad that we agree on that, but it did not appear to be so. At any rate, the hon. Gentleman asked me to make more clear the policy of Her Majesty's Government. In consequence, there were put forward in 1957, with the agreement of all the N.A.T.O. Powers, plans for anti-surprise attack measures, which included zones of inspection. In agreement with our Allies, we put forward the plan at Geneva in May for the establishment of a comprehensive security system. That plan provided for zones in which armaments would be limited after progress had been made towards a settlement in Europe. The hon. Gentleman may not agree with the Government's policy, but what he did today was particularly mischief-making. His own party's insistence on disengagement is the last way to win or, indeed, to keep the confidence of our Allies in Europe. I really believe he knows that, if he will think it over.
    I should like to say a word or two more about our relations with Europe since so many hon. Members have spoken of that. My noble Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Viscount Lamb-ton) made a very interesting speech on this subject, and an interesting evaluation was made by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), and a thoughtful speech by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. J. Hynd) and many others.
    The movement towards European unity is not a new problem. In the past

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    the Government have stated on many occasions that they welcomed this movement, and I say so again tonight most emphatically and earnestly. But it is pointless to deny that it is a movement which causes the United Kingdom particularly difficult problems because of its relationship with the Commonwealth, which had been established long before the movement towards European unification itself developed. The Government have always recognised that the economic division of Europe would lead to political division, and it was because they consider that the United Kingdom is an integral part of Europe that they thought that an urgent solution was necessary to the economic problems posed by the creation of the European Economic Community.
    It was to bridge this economic gap that the idea of the Free Trade Area was put forward. Negotiations for a Free Trade Area came to nothing. It is much to be hoped that, after a similar Free Trade Association between what I may perhaps now call the Stockholm Powers has come into being, it will be possible to put an end to the division of Europe. If it does not, the fault will certainly not be that of the Government. There is, however, no magic, no easy solution. If there were it would have been found long ago.
    It is true that suspicions of the Government's policy do exist on the Continent of Europe. These suspicions are totally unfounded, and it is precisely to explain the Government's motives and to create a feeling of mutual trust and confidence that my right hon. and learned Friend is now about to embark on a series of consultations with European leaders. It is too early to say precisely what may emerge from those discussions, but it can be said here and now with the greatest emphasis and sincerity that the policy of the Government in respect of Europe is to work with the greatest good will for a long-term economic or political solution which is acceptable to all our partners in Europe.
    Such a solution is necessarily not only in the interests of the United Kingdom but in that of Europe and of the whole of the Atlantic Community which it is the Government's constant desire to strengthen and develop, and, as men-
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    tioned in the Gracious Speech, the Government believe it is in the wider interests of the Commonwealth as well. In the meantime, the Government are willing to examine sympathetically any proposals for practical co-operation or more effective political organisation in Europe which would permit the concrete expression of their desire to contribute to the movement towards closer unity.
    There were many speeches by hon. Members tonight, and in particular by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Head) about the underdeveloped territories. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker), who wound up, laid great stress on this, and I was pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Sir H. d'Avigdor-Goldsmid) supported my right hon. Friend. I should like to say something about this.
    I should like the House to note that the Gracious Speech mentioned this problem, and the fact that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister also made it a subject of his speech shows with what importance the Government view this matter. I think I had better deal principally with the financial side, although I realise well that all the wider aspects of this problem have been raised in the debate today.
    However, most hon. Members have agreed that at the bottom of this problem is the question of the financial contribution. The struggle for men's minds, as it is called, is co-ordinated in Her Majesty's Government by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. I think I should just say that this appointment by the present Government was made with the idea that there should be somebody at Cabinet level to co-ordinate this matter; it is a novel outlook, and that in itself shows the importance which the present Prime Minister attaches to this problem.
    I agree that the problem of development of the less developed countries must be looked at as a whole, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) said, surely the first claim on United Kingdom resources is to provide help for the dependent territories within the Commonwealth itself, for which we obviously must have special responsibility. Our resources, of course, are not unlimited.

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    Listening to some hon. Members talk about this, one would think that it was possible to invest a deficit. When this Government came into office we had a deficit left by the hon. Members opposite when they were in office.
    We have managed to make great progress and great headway. We have already done a great deal in the past and we have been ready to extend help to non-Commonwealth countries. For instance, we are doing so in Libya and Jordan in special circumstances, and we are prepared to try to expand our help wherever we can; but I think it right that, after the dependent territories, the independent Commonwealth should, in general, be given priority, and I think no one would challenge the importance of India's partnership with us in the free world. There we are making a tremendous contribution.
    In the sphere of multilateral assistance, we continue to support the International Bank and the United Nations technical assistance schemes, which extend help to all member countries. The same is true of the proposed International Development Association, which we support. I want to assure my right hon. and gallant Friend that in all this we in the United Kingdom are not just relying on the normal processes of Government machinery. Very special arrangements have been and are being made to ensure that there is the most thorough co-ordination between the Government Departments concerned in dealing with these vital questions. I sensed that he was, rightly, nervous that these matters were being dealt with by different Government Departments. But there is a master plan. All this has been geared to the recently increased rate of Government expenditure on economic and technical assistance to overseas territories. In these, as indeed in all the present problems in the foreign field, we are keeping in the closest contact with the United States and other Governments.
    Mr. Head: If I wish to get in touch with the Departments responsible for assistance to under-developed territories, to which Department should I address my remarks?
    Mr. Profumo: It would depend on whether it was a matter of the investment
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    of money, a matter of teachers or whatever it happened to be. If it was a matter of teachers in the technical schools, it would be my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy. If it was a question about investment in underdeveloped countries and it was a foreign country, my right hon. and gallant Friend should address his inquiry to my Department. If it concerned a Colonial Territory, it would be the Colonial Office, and if it concerned a Commonwealth country it would be the Commonwealth Relations Office. [Interruption.] My right hon. and gallant Friend asked me to whom he should direct a question, and that is the answer. I am trying to tell him that, although there must be different Departments concerned in the different spheres, there is the closest coordination between Departments on what I might call the master plan. I can give my right hon. and gallant Friend that assurance.
    The decision to double the resources of the International Bank was an example of the results which flow from the contacts about which I have been talking. The combined measures which we have taken to help India finance her development plans is another. The current examination of the executive directors of the International Bank and the United States suggestion for an International Development Association is a third.
    As for the point about education and foreign students, here we find there is another division of responsibility; but I should like to tell the House that we have in this country at the moment some 42,000 overseas students. This is a very impressive figure, and I am not sure that any country in the world can produce as good a one. Naturally, this throws a major strain on the universities and the technical training schools in this country. We should like to do more, but progress must necessarily be related to the development of our higher training institutions as a whole. There is one further consideration which I should like to emphasise. We need not only to carry with us the United States and our other Allies, but we need the cooperation of the developing countries themselves. We cannot force assistance on them.

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    As to the point about Soviet activity—and this was stressed by many hon. Members—it is important not to exaggerate the extent of Soviet bloc aid to under-developed countries. The right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. G. Brown), who has given me notice that he was not able to be here for the rest of the evening, I think would agree if I try to make some comparison so that we can put this on the record. I would say that the right hon. Gentleman made a very fine eve of the poll speech, and I think I owe it to him to try to show him some of his fears are not as grounded as he thought they were.
    In fact, in comparison with an annual amount of free world aid, including private investment, of the order of £1,430 million, up to the end of 1958 the total Soviet bloc aid, exclusive of arms and supplies, was only some £575 million, of which not more than a quarter had at the time been spent. In other words, up to the beginning of this year, all the Soviet aid put together was considerably less than half the yearly contribution of the free world to the welfare of the under-developed countries.
    The right hon. Member for Belper made great play in his speech about how the party opposite have given a guarantee and an undertaking that they would invest 1 per cent. of the national income in the under-developed countries, and he went so far as to say that this may even have been partially responsible for their losing the election. They made this promise to the nation, realising that other things would have to suffer. Of course, they did not. None of us can forget what they did. They tried to get the benefit of both worlds by saying they would invest 1 per cent. of the national income in the under-developed countries, cut down taxation, and do this, that and the other. They wanted to tell the country that they would do a little bit of everything better than we did.
    The right hon. Gentleman went further to say that we did nothing, and he castigated my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton for having changed his mind and for getting up in the House and making a great speech on those things which were necessary, while he and his party had done nothing about it by the time of the election. I do not
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    want to have to go through all the election addresses and manifestos again.
    I do tell him, however, that he is wrong and must not mislead the House, because there is a long passage in the manifesto headed "Our Duty Overseas". One reason why we won the election was that people thought that we would do our duty more than the party opposite. It is all very well for the party opposite to talk of investing one per cent. of the national income in underdeveloped countries, but we are doing just that ourselves, and, in fact, a little more. It is a very remarkable achievement, considering the state of this country when we took office.
    I want to get back to the main argument. Of course, the Government thoroughly agree that this is an immensely important problem.
    Mr. Harold Lever: Do I understand the hon. Gentleman to say that the Government and the country as a whole are at present investing, or giving, or both together, one per cent. of our national income?
    Mr. Profumo: The hon. Gentleman understands me perfectly correctly. Indeed, the hon. Member perfectly understood me, and I am being a little modest, because we are doing better than that now.
    Mr. Healey: Is it not the case, and is not the Minister of State aware, that this overseas investment is mainly going to countries like Australia, Canada and so on? Is it not also the case that the Conservative Party included in its election documents, to which the Foreign Secretary almost gave the status of state papers in the discussion on another problem earlier, the statement that the Labour Party was proposing to spend twice as much as the Conservative Party on the under-developed areas?
    Mr. Profumo: The answer is that we are doing it fifty-fifty. I quite understand that hon. Gentlemen opposite are a little bit touchy about it, and I apologise for having to rub it in, but we must get the record clear.
    This needs more than a warm heart. We can all say that we are going to do a great deal, but it needs more than that. What it needs mostly is a sound economy here at home. With a wise

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    and sound economic policy here at home, the Government hope that we shall be able to play a noble part in what perhaps is the greatest venture, indeed, I would say crusade, of the whole of the twentieth century.
    I must now pass to various other points which have been raised in the debate. One of them was the question of Laos. My right hon. and learned Friend devoted part of his speech to talking about the situation there, but the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) suggested that in regard to the Laotian problem we should co-operate with the Russians in agreeing to their proposals for reconvening the International Commission in Laos and for a new Geneva Conference.
    As regards the first point, my right hon. and learned Friend explained earlier that the Laotian Government is opposed to the return of the International Commission. Laos is a free and independent country and we cannot seek to force the Commission on them. We stick solidly to that. As regards the second point, we have already explained to the Soviet Government, in a Note we sent to them on 21st September, that the Security Council of the United Nations is seized of the question and that it has established a sub-committee to make inquiries and to report to it; and that once the report has been received the Security Council will no doubt consider any proposals which may be put forward. I do not think it would be desirable for me at the moment to anticipate the line we shall take at that stage, but as this is the situation, Her Majesty's Government is confident that we want to follow the line of bringing the United Nations into the problem.
    Mr. Harold Davies: It is a delicate situation and one does not want to say anything that may bring about a disastrous one. Am I to understand from the considered reply, however, that the position of the Government now is that they will wait for the report from the United Nations—I would add that the Commissioner who was there for a few days is to report as well, and this was not mentioned tonight—and that when the report comes, which I hope the House will have an opportunity of seeing, the Government will come to the House and give
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    their considered decision as co-chairman on whether or not they will support the calling of a Geneva Conference? May I have a reply on that one point, please?
    Mr. Profumo: When we have had time to study the reports, certainly Her Majesty's Government will come to the House and state its position. I hope that satisfies the hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. Davies Mr. Davies indicated assent.
    Mr. Profumo: The hon. Gentleman also mentioned the Chinese representation in the United Nations, and this point was made with some force by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby, South. It was suggested by the hon. Gentleman that a settlement of the Tibetan problem, and, indeed, that of Laos and others, would be much simpler to achieve if China were a member of the United Nations. That may or may not be so, but the fact is that whatever we might say or do, there would be such a split in the United Nations over the question of its admission that it might do the organisation irreparable harm. This is a consideration which no responsible Government could possibly ignore.
    Mr. Davies: That is not true.
    Mr. Profumo: Both the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby, South and the hon. Member for Leeds, East criticised our support of Turkey in the Security Council elections. I make no apology for that. Turkey is a strong and loyal ally of ours with a very balanced and stabilising contribution to make. Of course, we would have liked to support Poland. Indeed, we supported Poland's candidature for the Economic and Social Council earlier this year. There is nothing derogatory to Poland in this. The trouble is really not our fault at all. To our mind, it is quite clear that, with a United Nations consisting of more than 80 members, the number of the non-permanent elected members to the Security Council should be increased. It is now only six out of 77. That seems to us to be far too few. But it is the Soviet bloc that is opposing any increase in membership of the Council.
    A great deal has been said about disarmament. The hon. Member for Leek made a powerful speech in favour of

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    disarmament, and the right hon. Member for Derby, South went through my right hon. and learned Friend's speech at the United Nations and spoke at some length. The proposals for comprehensive disarmament which my right hon. and learned Friend outlined—and I say "outlined" because they were merely outlined to the United Nations on 17th September—have been well received by the United Nations, including countries in the Soviet bloc. Since this debate began it has been reported from New York that a draft resolution, sponsored by all the 82 members, has been introduced by Mr. Cabot Lodge, supported in statements made by Soviet delegates, by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, and by M. Moch.
    That Resolution has the effect of recommending that my right hon. and learned Friend's proposals on disarmament, together with those of Mr. Khrushchev and others, should be considered in the small ten-Power Commission which well be meeting early in the new year. This is a great achievement. The whole block of 82 countries have unanimously acclaimed not only the suggestions of Mr. Khrushchev but also those of my right hon. and learned Friend, and have resolved that they should be referred to this Committee. We think that this is the right course and the right procedure.
    Mr. Harold Davies: It would be good for Britain to take the lead for once.
    Mr. Profumo: I have taken note of what the right hon. Gentleman said about the procedure and machinery in that Committee, but I want to take him up on one of his remarks. He said that he was disappointed by the reception given by Members of Her Majesty's Government to Mr. Khrushchev's plan. Indeed, the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), who spoke very interestingly, as usual, said that he was very disappointed that more was not made of this during the General Election campaign. I am disappointed at the reception which the plan put forward by Her Majesty's Government and my right hon. and learned Friend has received from hon. Members opposite.
    After my right hon. and learned Friend had spoken, representative after representative in the United Nations spoke in
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    favour of his plan, with great strength. I think I am correct in saying that about 20 countries praised the plan put forward by the United Kingdom, among whom were countries from the Soviet bloc, and one country which is to be a member of the ten-Power Commission. I do not believe that countries in the Soviet bloc do this sort of thing without prior consultation. We can therefore take it that there was a very considerable welcome for the plan put forward by my right hon and learned Friend. The only people who seem to think that Britain has nothing to offer are the right hon. Member for Derby, South and other hon. Members opposite.
    I am getting sick and tired of finding situations in the field of foreign affairs where we should be trying to speak nationally where speaker after speaker from the benches opposite denigrates what is put forward on the platform of Britain and on behalf of Britain. It appears that they would support almost anything else. When the right hon. Member for Derby, South made his speech it caused me to come to the conclusion that he had not read the speech of my right hon. and learned Friend. Many of the things that he was criticising are dealt with in the plan. My right hon. and learned Friend made it quite plain in his speech in the House that this was an outline plan—something for discussion. I would have thought that the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues would have welcomed it, but there was hardly a cheep out of them about it during the Election campaign.
    We read in the newspapers that the party opposite is to have a great post mortem on why it lost the election. May I, with the greatest respect, suggest that among the things they should study may well be the fact that perhaps the British public did not take too kindly to the fact that everything British is always run down by hon. Members opposite?
    Mr. Harold Davies: Rubbish.
    Mr. Profumo: Nobody looking back to the beginning of this year could fail to recognise that there has been a certain relaxation of tension—a slight but still a definite relaxation of tension—in the international climate. I think it not immodest to say that that relaxation, that improvement, owes its origin in no small measure to the energy and

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    enterprise of Her Majesty's Government who were not afraid to take the initiative in the cause of peace, despite scepticism in some quarters and disapproval in others.
    The hon. Member for South Ayrshire gave considerable praise to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for creating better relations, and I agree with the hon. Gentleman. For their energy and initiative, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary earned the respect and admiration of the whole world. I believe that everyone in the House, and, indeed, in the whole country, desires that initiative to be maintained and further developed in the critical months and perhaps even years of patient negotiation which are bound to lie ahead of us. This is a task which will require the utmost in patience, resolution, energy and diplomacy. It is also a task which, surely, transcends questions of party advantage, and I trust that we may be sustained in it by the constructive support and understanding of all men of good will.
    Motion made, and Question put, That the debate be now adjourned.—[Mr. Bryan.]
    The House proceeded to a Division:—
    Mr. BRYAN and Mr. WHITELAW were appointed Tellers for the Ayes, but no Member being willing to act as Teller for the Noes, Mr. SPEAKER declared that the Ayes had it.
    Debate to be resumed Tomorrow.

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS
Select Committee appointed to consider every Statutory Instrument, every Scheme or Amendment of a Scheme requiring approval by Statutory Instrument, and every Draft of such an Instrument, Scheme or Amendment, being an Instrument, Scheme, Amendment or Draft which is laid before the House and upon which proceedings may be or might have been taken in the House in pursuance of any Act of Parliament with a view to determining whether the special attention of the House should be drawn to it on any of the following grounds:—

(i) that it imposes a charge on the public revenues or contains provisions requiring payments to be made to the Exchequer or any Government Department or to any local
528
or public authority in consideration of any licence or consent or of any services to be rendered or prescribes the amount of any such charge or payments;

(ii) that it is made in pursuance of an enactment containing specific provisions excluding it from challenge in the courts, either at all times or after the expiration of a specified period;

(iii) that it appears to make some unusual or unexpected use of the powers conferred by the Statute under which it is made;

(iv) that it purports to have retrospective effect where the parent Statute confers no express authority so to provide;

(v) that there appears to have been unjustifiable delay in the publication or in the laying of it before Parliament;

(vi) that there appears to have been unjustifiable delay in sending a notification to Mr. Speaker under the proviso to subsection (1) of section four of the Statutory Instruments Act 1946, where an Instrument has come into operation before it has been laid before Parliament;

(vii) that for any special reason its form or purport calls for elucidation;

and if they so determine, to report to that effect:
Mr. Frank Allaun, Mr. Ronald Bell, Mr. Knox Cunningham, Commander Donaldson, Mr. Eric Fletcher, Mr. Hector Hughes, Mr. Robert Jenkins, Mr. Carol Johnson, Dr. King, Mr. Gilbert Longden, and Mr. Page:
To have the assistance of the Counsel to Mr. Speaker:
Power to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House, to report from time to time, and to report the Minutes of their Proceedings from time to time:
Power to require any Government Department concerned to submit a memorandum explaining any Instrument or other Document which may be under their consideration or to depute a representative to appear before them as a Witness for the purpose of explaining any such Instrument or other Document:
Three to be the Quorum:
Instruction to the Committee that before reporting that the special attention of the House be drawn to any Instrument or other Document the Committee do afford to any Government Department concerned therewith an opportunity of furnishing orally or in writing such explanations as the Department think fit:
Power to report to the House from time to time any Memoranda submitted or other evidence given to the Committee by any Government Department in explanation of any Instrument or other Document:
Power to take evidence, written or oral, from Her Majesty's Stationery Office, relating to the printing and publication of any Instrument or other Document.—[Mr. Legh.]

MATERNITY SERVICES, MANCHESTER
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Bryan.]
9.47 p.m.
Mr. Eric Johnson: May I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health on her new appointment which, I think, will give her scope for showing that sympathetic understanding of human problems which was so marked in her previous post. She will have that opportunity tonight because you, Mr. Speaker, have been kind enough to give me this early opportunity of drawing attention to the unsatisfactory state of the maternity services in Manchester.
This is causing grave anxiety to doctors in the city and I think that the tolerance of Manchester mothers and their husbands over this state of affairs is just about exhausted. The main trouble, of course, is the shortage of beds for confinements. That in itself is serious enough, but it has the further ill effect of leading to a diversion of beds in the gynæcological section of St. Mary's hospital for use for purposes of ordinary confinement on the maternity side. That is happening throughout the city.
The tragedy of this situation in human terms was brought home to me at the beginning of September when I was told by a doctor that he was unable to book a bed for a patient who was to have her first baby as far ahead as next March—six months ahead. Last week another doctor told me that he could get no room for a mother who was to have her first baby next May. Those are far from being isolated instances. Over and over again women who want to have their first babies in hospital have to be turned down. They go away in tears feeling bitterly resentful.
The position is so serious that if a woman wants to have her first baby in one of the three main Manchester hospitals she must be seen during the first ten weeks of her pregnancy or it will be too late for her to get in, unless the case is quite abnormal.
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Statistics show that I am in no way exaggerating the position. The report of the Committee on Maternity Services, the Cranbrook Committee, shows that the percentage of institutional confinements of mothers normally resident in Manchester compares unfavourably with the national figure. In 1957, the last figures available in the Report, this was 59·1 per cent. in Manchester, against the national figure of 64·5 per cent. Manchester is, in fact, in a worse position in this respect than most of the large industrial counties and county boroughs. By comparison with the Manchester rate of 59·1 per cent., the figure in the London County Council area is 80·9 per cent., in Leeds it is 68·7 per cent., in Liverpool it is 68·7 per cent., and in Birmingham it is 66·4 per cent. The Manchester figures are even further below the Cranbrook Committee's figure of 70 per cent., which it recommends for future planning.
There are at present 345 lying-in beds available in Manchester, and in 1958 there were 8,675 confinements in this accommodation. That gives a figure of 25·14 per bed per year. I think that my hon. Friend will agree that that is far too large, and it leads to a number of undesirable and, in fact, dangerous expedients. For example, there is a tendency to misuse ante-natal beds which, of course, should be kept for those who are ill during the ante-natal period but which are being used for ordinary lying-in patients. In addition, there is a further difficulty of keeping beds solely for isolation purposes. There is sometimes serious overcrowding. In fact, patients have literally to remain in the labour room for a very long time after their delivery while they are waiting for a bed from which a lying-in patient has just been discharged. That, in turn, leads to the undesirably early discharge of lying-in patients, and it also leads to some restriction of ward cleaning and decorating programmes in order to avoid taking beds out of use.
I said that Manchester's confinement rate was 25·14 per bed per year, and that is very high indeed, especially when it is compared with the rate of 20 which was recommended by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in their 1944 Report. Perhaps their figure of 20 is an ideal recommendation. We

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might say that perhaps a figure of 23 is reasonable and more realistic. Even if the figure of 23 were accepted for Manchester, instead of 20, it would mean that the number of lying-in beds must be increased by 98 immediately in order to achieve the figure of 70 per cent. institutional confinements recommended by the Cranbrook Report. On that basis of 70 per cent., the number of births for which provision would have been necessary in Manchester would have been 10,183. On the basis of 23 confinements per bed, it would mean that 443 beds would be required against the present number of 345. That gives the deficiency of 98 which I just mentioned.
It has been suggested that a more rapid through-put of patients is the solution of Manchester's problem, but they are already being discharged in as little as five days from the regional board hospitals and three days from the teaching hospitals. Five days is far too short and three days is quite outrageous. I know my hon. Friend too well to believe that she would for one moment countenance a suggestion which would increase the risk to the mother, and still more to the newly born child. That is precisely what this more rapid through-put, if I may use that rather unpleasant word again, would do.
The figure of 98 beds which I mentioned does not give a true picture, because the present total of 345 beds includes 32 beds at the gynaecological section of St. Mary's Hospital. There is an urgent need for them to return to their original function. In addition, there will be a loss of six maternity beds through the new developments at the Withington Hospital, so the total deficit will be 136 and not 98. It will be 98, plus the 32 to be returned to the gynaecological section and the six lost.
There is something on the other side. There is the prospect of the new maternity unit at Wythenshawe which will provide 56 beds, four isolation beds and 20 ante-natal beds. There is also the much less definite proposal to build a new maternity section for the teaching hospital, St. Mary's, so as to replace its present out-moded and ill-sited hospital in Whitworth Street.
I do not know if my hon. Friend knows Manchester, but I hope that she will take
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an early opportunity of going to see that hospital. I think that she will agree that that is long overdue. It would be very hard to imagine a worse site than the present one for a maternity hospital. It is situated on a very busy and noisy crossroads. Immediately opposite on one side of the street is a theatre. Opposite on the other side is a railway station. Next door is a dance hall. Behind it is a canal. There is such a continuous noise going on that I should have thought that it would have been very difficult indeed to examine a patient properly and virtually impossible when this involves listening, as I believe that it does, to an unborn baby's heart. In addition, the accommodation for the staff is very poor. It is not surprising that that makes recruiting of nursing staff extra difficult, because they naturally want to work under better conditions.
I understand that the Minister accepted the proposal to build a new hospital three years ago. I believe that it has been suggested that it should contain 135 beds. If my hon. Friend will look through the figures I have given she will agree that 135 beds are inadequate. It will not make up the deficiency now. Even if building the new hospital started right away, there is still an urgent need to do something at once before the new hospital can possibly be completed. There is a need for some action to meet this urgent need for beds and to increase the number available.
By far the best way—I am supported in this by all medical opinion in the city—is the provision of additional general practitioner beds. That would require perhaps three or four units similar to one which we have now at Beech Mount Maternity Home in North Manchester. That home does a very good job. There is plenty of room at Beech Mount for expansion. The need for expansion is shown by the fact that there are 245 general practitioners anxious to use its 21 beds. However, the provision of more general practitioner beds is only a stop-gap. Manchester's urgent and imperative need is for a new maternity hospital. I hope also that when that hospital is built, which I hope will be soon, a general practitioner annexe will be provided.

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Further, this is not only confined to Manchester—
It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Sharples.]
Mr. Johnson: I believe that it is a national need, and I hope that when a new maternity hospital is built anywhere in the country a general practitioner annexe will be provided alongside.
10.1 p.m.
Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: I intervene only very briefly to reinforce the closing words of the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. E. Johnson), and to remind the hon. Lady that I have from time to time bombarded her predecessors in the Ministry of Health with complaints and suggestions about the situation in my constituency of Swindon. I should be failing in my duty if I did not now remind her that in my town we have a very serious situation that is preoccupying not only expectant mothers but also the medical profession in the division.
This situation has led to a number of cases being sent out of the town to a Royal Air Force hospital. That, when it was first mooted, caused a good deal of alarm in Swindon, but I understand that the arrangements have worked out better than some expected. Nevertheless, it is an anomaly that a Service hospital should be used for this purely civilian and, indeed, very unmilitary purpose.
I should like to ask the Minister to look carefully, after this debate, at the situation in Swindon—I would have raised the matter at Question Time, in any case—and, in particular, let us know when the maternity ward at the new Princess Margaret Hospital in the town, which had its formal opening ceremony only a very few days ago, will be available for mothers of the town.
The hon. Lady, when she has had time to settle in her new Department, will see that from time to time I also questioned her predecessors about the implementation of the Cranbrook Committee's Report. I must say that very many of my constituents feel extremely impatient
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over the whole question, and would be most grateful if some action should now follow.
10.3 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Edith Pitt): First, I should like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. E. Johnson) for his kind congratulations. When I have finished speaking I hope that he will feel that I bring to my new job the sympathy with which he so generously credited me in my previous position.
I say at once that I know that there is a shortage of maternity beds in Manchester, but I would add that the problem that undoubtedly exists in Manchester is being seriously attacked. Before I sit down, I hope to satisfy him that this is so. The House is grateful to my hon. Friend—as the present attendance at an Adjournment debate should prove—and Manchester should be particularly grateful to him for raising this matter, which is of such great importance to that city and, indeed, to its neighbouring areas. I can assure the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. F. Noel-Baker) that I will certainly look into the matters that he has put to me tonight about Swindon.
I myself am grateful for the opportunity to take part in this debate because, to begin with, my first speech in the new Ministry enables me now to deal with a subject of which I have some experience, as I was chairman, in Birmingham, of the maternity and child welfare committee; and also because it provides a chance to examine the problem of maternity accommodation in Manchester in the wider setting of the Cranbrook Committee's Report on the Maternity Services, to which my hon. Friend frequently referred in his speech; and to say something of the action being taken.
I have already stated that my right hon. Friend the Minister is fully aware of the deficiencies in maternity accommodation in Manchester, both in quality and quantity. My hon. Friend referred particularly to St. Mary's Hospital, which is the maternity hospital of the teaching group in Manchester. I agree that, however excellent may be the work which is done there, the maternity accommodation is out of date and needs replacement. Similarly, I agree that the statistical evidence suggests that the total

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amount of accommodation available for Manchester mothers is insufficient. I think I can give my hon. Friend figures later than those he was able to quote.
In 1958, just over 58 per cent. of the births in Manchester took place in hospitals or maternity homes, and this is a smaller proportion than the national average for England and Wales which, in the same year, was about 64 per cent. The figure for Manchester, of course, relates to an area where it might reasonably be expected that the need, owing to housing conditions and other local circumstances, would be for a higher proportion of the births to take place in hospitals or maternity homes than in the country as a whole.
In the simplest terms, the problem is that there is a known deficiency in quality and quantity. The question then is: how should it be attacked? In answering that, we are fortunate in having at our disposal the guidance of the Cranbrook Committee. The Committee has emphasised the need for careful selection of patients in deciding the need for hospital confinement. It suggested, also, the criteria which should apply in deciding whether confinement in hospital or at a maternity home is needed. It has drawn attention to the priority need for a proper proportion of antenatal beds as well as lying-in beds.
Further, the Committee has emphasised the desirability of providing any necessary additional lying-in beds as far as possible in the form of general practitioner beds. My hon. Friend referred particularly to this. Moreover, the Committee urged the need for hospital authorities, in consultation with the other health authorities, to conduct local reviews in the light of these principles to find out how much accommodation is actually needed in each area, according to local circumstances.
All these points were brought to the attention of hospital authorities by my right hon. and learned Friend in July last, and he then asked them to undertake an immediate review. Thinking in terms of Manchester, this means that the regional hospital board, which is responsible for planning the maternity hospital services in the city, as in the rest of the area, and for determining priorities in providing them, is now charged
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with the task of reviewing the need for maternity beds. This it will do in consultation with the board of governors of the teaching hospital, the corporation, the executive council and the local medical committee, to decide what needs to be done and how and when it can best be done.
The review is not confined to the City of Manchester—this is an important point—for this reason: about 15 per cent. of the lying-in beds in Manchester are used for mothers resident outside the city. If all those mothers could reasonably be confined nearer their homes, the accommodation available to Manchester mothers would be substantially increased. Of course, it is neither possible nor desirable that all the non-residents should be excluded from Manchester maternity beds. As a teaching and research centre, Manchester must continue to meet the special needs of cases from a wide area. But the fact remains that development outside the city—for example, the provision of a new maternity unit of 108 beds in Salford, which is already being planned—may well help in meeting the city's needs. A review on a basis wider than the city alone is needed to solve the city's problems.
Further, the review must take other factors into account before conclusions can be reached. It must, for example, overhaul arrangements for the selection of patients, to which I have already referred, to ensure priority in the available accommodation for those who need it most. It must be considered whether, by better organisation, more effective use can be made of the present accommodation and whether existing hospital beds can be reallocated to provide more for maternity purposes. Only when the facts on all these points have been fully sifted can conclusions be reached by the regional hospital board about the size of the problem in Manchester and how to tackle it. My right hon. Friend relies, and must rely, on the board to advise him of what action is required when it has completed its review, but, in reaching its conclusions, the board, no less than my right hon. Friend, will, I am sure, certainly bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said tonight.
My hon. Friend mentioned the maternity home at Beech Mount and asked whether it was possible to consider

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extensions there. That is one of the points which the board must have in mind when it conducts its review. I found out for him—perhaps this is a small crumb of comfort to my hon. Friend—that the board proposes to spend £3,500 in 1960–61 on that maternity home in improving the ante-natal clinic, kitchen and dining room.
In connection with the general picture, my hon. Friend referred to the short periods which some mothers spend in hospital when confined. That is not the information which I have. It was a point on which I particularly asked for information when I knew that I was to answer the Adjournment debate, because it is the first thing that I personally would wish to know. I am advised that the average length of stay of a mother in a Manchester hospital, taking the overall accommodation available, is just over eleven days—11·3. However, I promise my hon. Friend that I will check the figures which he quoted.
I have already said that the final conclusions about the needs of Manchester for maternity accommodation must await the result of the review by the regional hospital board, but it would be misleading to leave the matter there or to give the House the impression that no action is possible at present. It is possible to take action, and, in fact, action is being taken. In the first place, a new maternity unit is being provided at Withington Hospital to replace the present unsatisfactory accommodation there. Secondly, the first phase of a new
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hospital now being planned for building at Baguley will include another new maternity unit. Taken together, these two projects will increase the number of available maternity beds by about 70.
Thirdly there is the question of St. Mary's Maternity Hospital. My hon. Friend has particularly emphasised the need for new building to replace present outworn units. I am happy to be able to tell him that within the next few days my right hon. Friend will invite the board of governors to begin the planning of the first phase of a new hospital so that the building may begin as soon as planning is completed. In the main, the new hospital will be a replacement of the old, but it is anticipated that about 20 additional ante-natal beds will become available as a result.
This means that in Manchester there are already projects at different stages which will increase the present total of maternity beds of all kinds under the National Health Service from about 370 to 460, or by nearly 25 per cent. When the board's review has been made, further steps may be needed, but I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that Manchester's problem has been fully recognised and is being seriously tackled. I am sure that he will welcome the progress which is being made and the information that I have been able to give him tonight.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at fourteen minutes past Ten o'clock.

NATIONAL FINANCE
  Export-Import Bank (Loan Repayment)
  Export-Import Bank (Loan Repayment)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Leicester
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

SHARE VALUES AND PENSIONS
3.5 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware that on the 9th of October the market value of the shares of British industrial firms increased by £800 million and whether, in view of this evidence of the country's increasing prosperity, Her Majesty's Government will make arrangements to pay an increase of 10s. 0d. per week in retirement, old age and widows' pensions and in unemployment benefit.]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): My Lords, I could not help noticing the manifestations of confidence in our future which showed themselves throughout the country on October 9. The noble Lord will be aware that it is our intention to secure that the recipients of social service payments shall continue to share in the increasing prosperity which the continuation of sound economic policies will bring in due course to our country.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that one of the manifestations on October 9 was in the Evening Standard, which read as follows:
"Britain has a song in its heart tonight. Investors are singing 'Land of Hope and Tory' as they look eagerly for more liberal dividends and tax cuts."
Will the noble Earl say whether that was what they won the Election for, or will he not agree with what I think is the wish of everybody in this country of all political Parties—namely, that the old
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people should get an increase in their pension now so that they can keep warm and keep alive during the winter, and that there should not be this delay when quite obviously the country can afford the increase?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, this Question relates to the statutory retirement pensions, and the Government certainly intend to adhere to the declarations they have made, which are expressed in paragraph 34 of the White Paper, that they will review the position as the prosperity of the country increases.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Would you not begin to act at once, or are the old people to be left as they are, to pay up to 6s. 2d. a pound for butter before Christmas, as announced this morning in the Press? Are you not going to give immediate consideration to the needs of the old people, and not merely adjust matters for those who are still able-bodied enough to go to work?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, that seems to be a question affecting perhaps National Assistance rather than contributory pensions. I do not want to say anything which might give the impression that we do not mean to give attention to contributory pensions, too; but we have very recently raised the National Assistance rates, which are now considerably in excess of the statutory retirement pension.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: My Lords, would my noble friend care to refresh the memory of members of the Opposition as to the action they took, or did not take, to help the old age pensioners during the period they were in office?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: That is certainly in my mind, but I do not wish to remind noble Lords about it with any controversial motive. I am sure that we all want to do our best to improve the social services of our country, and I wish there were not so much Party dispute about it.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, the noble Earl said that he did not want to create the impression that the Government were not prepared to do something, or did not intend to do something. Is he prepared to create the impression that the Government intend to do something?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I think I have already answered that point. The only reason I said what I did was that I wanted to be careful not to give the impression that we thought National Assistance was a substitute for retirement pensions, but to convey that they must both be considered in their proper relationship to each other.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, can the noble Earl say, in view of the extract from the newspaper which I read, referring to the hopes of tax cuts, whether it is the Government's intention to increase retirement and old age pensions before there are any cuts in taxation?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I cannot give any statement about Government intentions without consulting the Minister of Pensions, but I should have thought, surely, that an increase in the rate of the statutory retirement pension would involve an increase in the rate of contribution to the Pensions Fund, which is not at all the same thing as a reduction of tax.

DEPUTY CHAIRMEN OF COMMITTEES
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, I beg to move, That the Lord Blackford, the Lord Terrington, the Lord Crook, the Lord Chorley, the Earl of Buckinghamshire, the Lord Archibald, the Lord Ailwyn, the Earl of Munster, and the Lord Cawley, be appointed the panel of Lords to act as Deputy Chairmen of Committees for this Session.
Moved, That the Lord Blackford, the Lord Terrington, the Lord Crook, the Lord Chorley, the Earl of Buckinghamshire, the Lord Archibald, the Lord Ailwyn, the Earl of Munster, and the Lord Cawley be appointed the panel of Lords to act as Deputy Chairmen of Committees for this Session.—(The Earl of Home.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LEAVE OF ABSENCE
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I beg to move, That a Select Committee be appointed for the general supervision of arrangements relating to leave of absence, and that the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:—

E. Lucan.

E. St. Aldwyn.

L. Amulree.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

CONSOLIDATION BILLS
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved to resolve, That it is desirable that all Consolidation Bills (including Bills for consolidating Private Acts), Statute Law Revision Bills and Bills presented under the Consolidation of Enactments (Procedure) Act, 1949, in the present Session be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: Ordered that a Message be sent to the Commons to communicate this Resolution and to desire their concurrence.

ADDRESS IN REPLY TO HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH
3.15 p.m.
Debate resumed (according to Order) on the Motion moved on Tuesday by Lord Hastings—namely, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty as follows:
"Most Gracious Sovereign—We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to thank Your Majesty for the most gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, before I address myself to the Motion before your Lordships' House may I add my respectful word of congratulation to the noble Lords, Lord Hastings and Lord Aberdare, upon the very able way in which they discharged their most onerous task? I am sure that it pleased the House, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, will not mind if I follow the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and not him. I intend to confine my remarks to the industrial aspect of the gracious Speech, as I do not count myself among the 25 million-odd "Foreign Secretaries" in this country.
I look upon the present task before this country as the greatest challenge that has ever been presented to any Government. We are living in a new age, an age that has known not poverty, and we do not intend that this country shall ever experience again the days when poverty was rampant. It is for the Government to prove that their policies are going to reach that end. There are many disquieting factors in the Government's policy as set out in the gracious Speech, and there are many disquieting factors in my assessment of the behaviour of quite a large part of this country and the people in it. We have not yet learned the way to live in an era of prosperity. I think that we shall have, on all sides of industry, to show considerable self-discipline. But prosperity is going to come to this country, and is going to be sustained by encouragement and not by discouragement. It is going to be sustained by encouragement to be successful.
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I know that there are certain people in the country who think that to be successful in your chosen vocation plants upon you something like the brand of Cain. I have never thought it necessary to be ashamed that my industrial career has not been altogether a failure:
"Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might"
and
"It is the hope of reward that sweetens labour".
The task of the Government is to see that there is prosperity for every man, woman and child in this country able and willing to make a contribution to that prosperity, and I hope that they will remember that. With those thoughts in my mind I read the article in the Daily Telegraph written by my noble friend Lord Pakenham, which in this aspect of what he wrote was most agreeable to me.
The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, in his speech touched upon one of the problems which we have to face. He touched upon the problem confronting us with these unfortunate unofficial strikes. I have had a considerable experience of industrial relations. I was for five years the chairman of the National Joint Industrial Council which brought order out of chaos in an industry. On the union side were the representatives of the largest trade unions in this country. I learned to know them; I learned to respect them. It ill-behoves a lot of people to try to worsen the task of a great movement such as the trade union movement is. This country and its industrial and social progress cannot do without it. It has an honourable past, and it is part of the structure of the country.
But, my Lords, something has gone wrong. I would say to my trade union friends because I believe that at this juncture in our affairs a man has to speak his mind and must not be mealy-mouthed about problems of this kind—that their success in the future will rest wholly and solely upon the respect, the trust and the confidence of every section of the population of this country. So I counsel them to eradicate swiftly and ruthlessly this malignant growth which has manifested itself. It is their task—nobody else's. Unless they do that, one of the most valuable things we in this country have, collective bargaining, will be irreparably damaged. Let the other side of industry

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play their part, too. Both sides of industry must learn to have good industrial relations in an era of prosperity, which is an entirely different technique from industrial relations in times of large-scale unemployment and poverty.
When my noble friend Lord Alexander of Hillsborough opened the debate yesterday afternoon, he made reference to a speech which was made by the chairman of one of the joint stock banks, and, with that good humour which always characterises what he says, the Leader of the House rather twitted him. But I would ask the noble Earl and the Government not to take all the credit for the present era of prosperity. What I think the lawyers call "an act of God" helped considerably—the windfall of falling commodity prices to the extent of millions and millions of pounds. The Government have to take that into consideration. Therefore they should be just a little modest. Perhaps modesty in the first flush of an electoral victory is hard to expect. But there is this danger, and it is why I want to underline what the noble Lord said: low commodity prices are changing. Basic raw materials are costing more, and industrial costs from raw materials will rise. Competition the world over is rising. Although I do not believe in not being an optimist, the knife-edge is there; and for the Government to fail now would be a betrayal of trust. So I want to see enterprise in the industrial fit-up of this country. I want to see encouragement for enterprise. I want to see the rewards for enterprise—and I do not care where that enterprise comes from: whether from the public or the private sector of industry. But enterprise there must be.
If I may turn to one example, surely to-day it emerges from what I would call the wonderful achievements of what has now become practically the keystone of our economy in exports from this country—an industry into which I had the honour to be born and have lived all my industrial life: I refer to the motor industry, which is now producing 20 per cent. of the country's exports of manufactured goods. This great industry for years alternated between being the milch cow of Chancellors of the Exchequer and being kicked about like a rag doll in the cloud of prejudice which surrounded the possession of the modern motor car. I
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look back to the days when the men who were at the head of that great industry ploughed their millions into their investment, and worked and worked and today, as I say, it is one of the country's greatest industries. If some of the other industries had matched the enterprise of the motor vehicle manufacturers of this country—if the steel industry had done so—we should not have had to waste millions of dollars in importing sheet steel, and there would not have been the shortage of sheet steel that threatened to bring a slight hiatus in progress.
But here again, even at a period when the motor industry is breaking all records of production, when it is breaking all records on its export side, for the first nine months of this year as compared with the first nine months of 1958 it is losing its share of the world's markets. Let that be a sobering thought. The chief markets in which it has lost ground have been in Australia and in South Africa. I will give your Lordships one of the reasons—there are a number. At present it is turning out 1,500,000 vehicles a year and is working to capacity. In the overseas markets it faces increasing competition. In Europe, France, which was out of the manufacturing market for years, is back in. What do the manufacturers do?—plough millions more into this industry. If the reports that I have received of anticipated increases in output before the end of 1961 are right, the total output of the motor car and vehicle industry in this country will be about 2½ million vehicles a year. This industry has always kept its export promises, and never once has it failed to export over 50 per cent. of its car output and 30 per cent. of its commercial vehicle output. But even if it continues to do that it will still leave us with the problem to which I will turn next.
But I want to pay tribute to one man. I cannot see him in his place, but I will speak in his absence of the debt we owe to that great dynamic personality in this great industry, the noble Lord, Lord Rootes, and his great drive in dollar exports. I want also to stake this claim: I want the noble Earl opposite to consider with his right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer the advisability of either reducing or abolishing the petrol tax and I say that for two reasons. First, it would make

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the largest contribution I can think of to a reduction in prices and costs in this country; secondly, it would remove the last remaining handicap on this great industry's designers, who have proved able to hold their own all over the world. Because, of course, this tax still conditions the design of a lot of our vehicles, not only for use in this country but also for exports.
I said just now that we are to have an increase of nearly one million vehicles in the output of the motor industry, and that brings me to the part of the gracious Speech which says:
"In order to develop a sound system of communications throughout the country, My Government will press forward with their policy of building new highways and improving existing roads."
Before I say a very brief word on that—as we are having a debate on this subject next Wednesday—I want to give a personal word of welcome to the noble Lord, Lord Chesham, who, if he will permit me to say so with respect, has earned his promotion by no road but the hard one of showing his sheer ability. He has addressed himself to his task to the satisfaction of all quarters of this House, and I believe that the House is fortunate, because he is the first direct representative of the Ministry of Transport that we have had here since I lost the job in 1951. I cannot promise him a smooth road. He is going to have a very rough ride; but I know that at least he will try to give satisfaction to the House, and I know that he will not present us, as we have sometimes had in the past, with a brief in answer to a debate that has been prepared three days before ever the debate took place.
I am not going to say much to-day, because we have this debate coming, but the fact is that our roads are absolutely inadequate. The conveyor lines of industry, which are the roads of this country, are coming to a standstill. It is no good thinking that we can improve the output and the productive capacity of this country unless we build more roads, and this is a gigantic industrial and commercial job. I say, with very great respect, that when we have the tools, the contractors and the equipment, it is not the kind of job that can be hogged down in a morass of legalistic and Civil Service red tape. I am not going to say any more about that aspect until Wednesday next.
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Likewise the railways. We are told that we are going ahead with the modernisation of the railways. I can only regret that the noble Lord, Lord Mills, is not in his place this afternoon, because he now occupies the exalted position, one which I am certain he will fill with distinction, of chief industrial adviser to the Prime Minister. I would suggest that his first job should be to make a reinvestigation as to what is holding back the development of the railways as an economic system of transport in this country.
The gracious Speech also portends a new distribution of industry. I have memories of the Acts of 1945 and 1948. I had the honour of piloting the Act of 1948 in your Lordships' House when I was spokesman for the Board of Trade, and if in relation to that 1945 Act this new Bill—which I have not studied, as I have not yet had the time—will do as much good to this country as the Acts of 1945 and of 1948 did in their circumstances, it will be a wonderful achievement. I am not going to bore your Lordships with a large number of statistics of what was achieved by those Acts of 1945 and 1948 when we really cleaned up those "distressed areas", as they were in 1945, "development areas" as they were changed to in 1948; but may I ask the noble Earl who is to follow me to read The Times leader to-day and to take careful note of it?
It is said that a sentence of death concentrates a man's mind wonderfully. The speed with which Her Majesty's Government have been converted to a lot of these things since the Election started has been beyond belief. But the best way of curing unemployment, if I may use a rather Irish expression, is to prevent its happening; and I am going to suggest that there are a number of industries that will need to receive a great deal of special attention. The prosperity of this country is not equally spread, and the great test of this Government will be: will this new Distribution of Industry Act prove to be the eliminator of unemployment and guarantee a job to the people of this country who are willing to do a job in a place where they can do it? That will be the great test. Bills are not much good unless they are implemented vigorously, and I hope that this one will be.
This brings me to a matter which is missing from the gracious Speech. I am

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surprised that there is no reference to what Her Majesty's Government intend to do with one of our greatest industries, an industry which built up the prosperity of the North of England, and, indeed, of Scotland—the shipping and shipbuilding industry. When one comes to think (as I believe I am right in saying) that for the first time in the history of this country we are a net importer of shipping, the matter becomes pretty serious. My Lords, these are the figures: British owners are having 368,734 tons built abroad, outside this country; there are 231,512 tons being built here in this country for registration abroad. What do the Government intend to do about it, because a Distribution of Industry Act will not cure that problem? If the noble Earl read a speech by the Chairman of the Chamber of Shipping on scrapping he will have read that one of the troubles with the shipping industry is that it hangs on too long to its old vehicles. That was a fallacy of the motor industry.
My Lords, I know that there are two schools of thought upon this vital point. One is that the industry has to fight its way out of this problem. I do not mind the industry fighting its way out of the problem, but what are we going to do to find employment on the Tyne and the Clyde and on the Tees while it is doing it? It may suit the economics of ship-owners; it very certainly does not suit the economics of the shipbuilders. I should also like to ask what is the Government's intention regarding the replacement of the "Queen Mary" and the "Queen Elizabeth"? I know all the arguments, the pros and cons, there. But the Government will have to do something. Are they going to take their scheme for the cotton industry as a pattern for the shipbuilding industry? I know, again, that there are two schools of thought. I should think you would have a job to convince the people of this country that you are going to hand over the passenger traffic of the seas to foreign flags.
Then there is the coasting trade, which is in the doldrums, and yet we insist upon carting abnormal loads, even ships, along the roads of this country. I think the Government have to give very serious consideration to this matter, because all the evidence I have on this problem is that they are doing their
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best to influence business away from the coasting trade instead of diverting it, if they possibly can, economically to the coasting trade.
I come now to perhaps a more controversial matter. Again, I am going to touch only briefly on this subject because some of my colleagues also are going to deal with it. I want to ask a few questions. The most gracious Speech says:
"My Government will initiate an enquiry into the working of the Companies Act and will introduce a Bill to strengthen the present law relating to building societies."
Well, the inquiry has not been started yet. The personnel and the court have not been chosen—at least their names have not been published; and I suppose I should not be exaggerating if I said that about two years must elapse before that court gives Her Majesty's Government its findings. What is going to happen in the meantime, in view of the public disquiet over what has happened in recent months? My Lords, I must, I think, be careful. I hope I shall not transgress the proprieties of this matter. I do not know—I am not a lawyer—whether or not any of this is sub judice, but I want to ask the noble Lord where he thinks the responsibility of the Board of Trade is in what has happened.
What has happened to allow toy companies to be registered and to borrow money and invite the public to invest money while they have never produced a set of accounts? What has happened, when a building society could put millions into highly speculative companies—600 highly speculative companies—and the net result may well be that the small investor is going to lose millions of money? It is not that the Government did not know it. There is a city journal to which I might refer. I have a copy of the Investor's Chronicle of October 17, 1958—chapter and verse of the whole sordid business is there set out. I will give the noble Lord this journal; perhaps he has not seen it. Perhaps the President of the Board of Trade did not know; but the City did and the Press did. What was the action of the Government?—nothing. I repeat, nothing. Is that an indictment of negligence? What are they going to do until they get a new Companies Act, which may be in two years' time?

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Nothing? Or are they going to see the present law evaded and the present Companies Act cut to ribbons?
I am going to say to the noble Earl that it is one of the Government's responsibilities of the future to protect the small investor. Do we not want some of the money that is paid out in millions every week to the worker ploughed back into industry? Why should he not be an equity shareholder? Why should he not be an investor in a unit trust or in a building society? Would it not be better than letting his money be invested on the dog tracks of the country, spent in the public-houses and on the pools? And have you not a responsibility for seeing that he is protected? I am delighted to see here in his place this afternoon the noble Lord, Lord Ritchie of Dundee, who is the chairman of the Stock Exchange. I hope the Stock Exchange will take notice of this. I am not going to run into a rampage about the City. The City is no more dishonest because there are a few crooks in it than the industrial structure of this country is rotten because we have a few Communist agitators in its ranks. Let us bear a sense of proportion. The more you denigrate the City of London, the greater is the damage you do to the economy and the well-being of this country as a whole. Clean it up! And when you do find that there is something wrong, do not do what the President of the Board of Trade did. May I ask the noble Earl who is going to reply to remind the President of the Board of Trade of a very great predecessor he had—Nero: but at least he did do a job on a fiddle.
Now I come to the last point I want to raise, and here is what I think has made and will make in future one of the greatest contributions to the prosperity of this country. It took a lot of courage for a Conservative Government to introduce the Restrictive Trade Practices Act. I congratulate them: I give them all the credit. I think that perhaps a lot of that credit should go to the noble and learned Viscount who sits on the Woolsack. I have always looked upon him as the father of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act. I remember what a dickens of a job he had to get some of it through this House, when the forces of reaction were on the Back Benches opposite. When I led on that: Bill I even had to threaten
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to ask my colleagues on this side of the House to go into the Lobby with the noble and learned Viscount in order to get noble Lords opposite to withdraw Amendments, as they could not stand the sight of Government support coming from this side of the House.
I would say that the Restrictive Trade Practices Act has been one of the greatest successes we have had in this country, and I think that the noble and learned Viscount must be very grateful. There have been six verdicts, if I may use the term "verdicts". There have been 600 torn up agreements—and I think some more are on the way. But may I implore the noble and learned Viscount to bear in mind that the mice are already nibbling. Puffed up with their success at the polls, the forces of reaction are abroad. Yes, restrictionism dies hard in certain sections, led by that great Field-Marshal of restrictionism the Director-General of the Institute of Directors, who has already given warning that he wants the Act altered—and he does it under the guise of how cruel it is to the small trader.
If the Government think of altering that Act, let them take courage as they screw themselves up for the task before them, and remove the great weakness that there is in that Act—the individual price maintenance section. What does it do? Recently I have seen that some of our great chain stores—and I commend them for it—are reducing the prices of branded article:;. They are cutting the prices of branded articles. But you will be surprised to hear that they are being subsidised to do so by the manufacturers of those branded articles. There must be something wrong with an Act that will allow the producer of a branded article to subsidise a large concern in order that he may cut his prices, and then to use sanctions against the small trader who does the self-same thing. But that is what is happening. Now I think that we shall go on and shall see prices come down with a bitter battle. I know the producer is saying that the retailer is getting too much and that the retailer says that it is not he but the wholesaler. What we have to do, my Lords, is to see that prices come down; and that is the answer to any fear of inflation.
My Lords, I now come to the end of my remarks. I opened my speech by

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saying that there was a challenge to the Government. The present situation also provides a challenge to the Opposition. The Government have a difficult task: to sustain their virility over three Parliaments. In my view, the Opposition has a duty, and that is to provide a virile Opposition. Of course we have our differences of opinion, quite naturally. We are doing a lot of hard thinking, and I hope the other side are doing it as well. I do not suppose that the quarter from which the interruptions have come do any thinking at all: they certainly have not done very much up to date, except to play the part of the fair charmer—and not so fair. But, my Lords, while we may be divided on some of our views, there is one thing we are united in, and that is to attempt to do our duty as an Opposition. The noble Earl, in one of those charming speeches which always delight the House (although perhaps we do not agree with everything he says), said yesterday that we cannot expect that we shall not get as good as we give. Well, we shall not pull our punches, and if one of them occasionally slips off and catches the noble Earl fairly and squarely on the jaw, I hope he will receive it in the same sporting spirit as that in which it has been delivered. My Lords, the Opposition hope, by adopting a policy of virile opposition, to play its part in ensuring the peace and the prosperity of this great country and of this great people.
3.58 p.m.
VISCOUNT ESHER: My Lords, I have been a Member of your Lordships' House only for some thirty years, and during the last twenty-five of those thirty years the Liberal Party have had to eat humble pie in this House. I think it will be agreed that we have not been in the habit of throwing our weight about—for the excellent reason that we have had no weight. But now that we have 1,600,000 progressive citizens—and the number will be 3 million next time—representing those sensible, central people, the Left Conservatives and the Right Labour, who always agree with each other about everything, I think we have a right to look at the gracious Speech for any slight signs of liberal enlightenment that it may contain.
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Clearly, one of the unexpected results of this Election has been that the Conservatives have moved slightly to the Left and the Labour Party have moved slightly to the Right. We cannot but approve of these gentle gestures on the part of the two major Parties, but they are held down by the dead weight of the bodies who finance them, and they cannot move very far or very fast. This is proved, I think, by the conventional good intentions of the Government programme, so admirably expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, and the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, the day before yesterday, which I thought was a blank slab of "yesterday's porridge". Only we who have no money, and no great body of wealthy people supporting us, are free as air to be modern and up to date and to face the future of this exciting new world in which we live. Our faithful 1,600,000 get nothing by supporting us.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Hear, hear!
VISCOUNT ESHER: Exactly; they get nothing—no promises of prosperity and pensions, which the other Parties hand out at Election time to justify their faith. But they look to us who represent them here to invigorate and amplify the Conservative programme and to upset, if we can, the aristocratic tranquillity of Transport House.
The gracious Speech does recognise, with a placid platitude and a complete lack of urgency, that the starving proletariat of the past now live in Africa and Asia. This, at any rate, is an admission that times have changed and that the class war is over. That is very different from the Labour Party, I fear. Mr. Richard Crossman, writing in the New Statesman, emits the following ignoble thought:
"In this era of Tory prosperity and Labour opposition, we have to run very fast to stay where we are. Each year which takes us farther not only from the hungry 'thirties but from the austere 'forties, weakens class consciousness, and if nothing is done to stop this national tendency, more and more Socialist voters will turn Tory."
I found that a lamentable profession of faith. In fact, it means a renewal of the class war created by a slump as the hope of the Labour Left. That makes it quite clear, I think, that they will not accept the revolution in which we live.

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They will not bring themselves to admit how much of their thinking is obsolete—although I understand from the last speaker that they are going to try to remedy that.
But I, being obsolescent myself, have a keen eye for these things, and I notice that the Government recognise that coal is obsolescent and have cut away £175 million from the programme. That is not a pleasant thing for any industry to face, and voices in the Labour Party show anxiety to keep coal alive by banning the oil that competes with it. In the old days, I remember, all the houses were lit by wax candles, but when the electric light came in no voices were raised to try to save the poor people who made wax candles in those days: they were allowed to go under at once. And in this revolutionary age, oil itself is not going to last for very long. Recently I thought of converting my house from solid fuel to oil, but expert advice warned me that in a few years nuclear power and nuclear energy would provide cheap and clean electric power and that we shall not have to live, as we do now in a poisonous miasma of carbon monoxide fumes. But the oil companies are naturally fighting this, just as the tobacco companies try to lull our fears about cancer. Surely our politicians should be free of these industrial temptations.
I cannot see that either of our larger Parties are facing up to the revolution in which we live, far less accepting it with joy. They still think that we are a second-class Power because Russia and America have armaments that they will never dare to use. They are still awestruck by the dollars of the rich, which bring them so little benefit. They still think that the very rich American has replaced and taken over the privileges of the old aristocracy, when in point of fact his Rolls Royce is permanently stuck in a Fifth Avenue traffic block and he cannot get a parlourmaid. I hope that we shall not allow such plutocratic delusions to affect our policy. But I found no recognition, in the tame words of the Government's policy, as portrayed in the gracious Speech, that armaments are far more obsolescent than coal.
There is no warm welcome expressed for Mr. Khrushchev's total disarmament proposal. I know that the noble
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Marquess, Lord Lansdowne, expressed some approval of Mr. Khrushchev's policy yesterday. I have a great admiration for the noble Marquess in the career which he is starting, and I am sure that he will be a great success in political life. But I feel somehow that his remarks about disarmament will not be read by Mr. Khrushchev over his morning glass of vodka this morning; that General de Gaulle will not have propped up his speech against the coffee pot at Colombier-des-deux-Eglises this morning, and that General Norstad, the American General in Paris, will not have gone out immediately this morning to buy that bowler hat and take off that uniform in which he looks so lovely. In fact, I have to repeat that this welcome should not have been given to us by the noble Marquess, Lord Lansdowne, but should have been in the gracious Speech.
No doubt the interests determined to dig out useless coal are not so powerful as those determined to make useless armaments. It is true that we have scrapped the "Vanguard", expensively kept alive long after it was obsolete; but we have replaced it with the "Tiger", a cruiser which is said to be about as much use in modern warfare as cavalry. I am told, on good authority, that those magnificent figures, the Chiefs of Staff, all have liberal minds—a fine endowment, in my view, for anybody—but it cannot be doubted that there are powerful influences behind the Pentagon, from what is called the "Top Brass" down to the most humble worker in the armament industry firms, who will struggle to prevent the total disarmament, and the release of the money which it costs, for which Mr. Khrushchev is fighting. In fact, the people who make and control armaments will want to keep their jobs just as much as those who dig out useless coal. Your Lordships will remember that the archery interests kept us making bows and arrows 100 years after the invention of gunpowder.
I find it most regrettable that the gracious Speech should be less enthusiastic for total disarmament than the Russian Government. Mr. Khrushchev, who spends much more money on obsolete armaments than we do, knows very well that he cannot hope to raise the standard of living in Russia unless he

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gets rid of them. Surely, it is equally true that the £1,500 million a year that we waste on these obsolete things are wanted to complete our Welfare State. With those millions we could sweep away the last remnants of Victorian slums; we could provide the teachers that universal education requires; we could solve the traffic problems; we could bring some cultural advance into the leisure and pleasure of this prosperous community; and we could help to feed the starving proletariat of Asia and Africa. For £1,500 million a year—when we have taken it away from armaments—is a very large sum of money, and I much regret that the gracious Speech does not seem in any urgent hurry to get it and apply it to the real problems of the modern world.
4.14 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I should like, if your Lordships will allow me, to thank both the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, and the noble Viscount, Lord Esher, for the very constructive contributions which they have made to our debate. I am delighted to hear that Lord Esher evidently does not intend to follow the prevailing fashion by leaving the political Party to which he belongs.
VISCOUNT ESHER: They are all coming to us.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I hope the noble Viscount will always go on being a Liberal—
VISCOUNT ESHER: I certainly shall.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: —chiefly because whenever we have the pleasure of hearing him speak, which we all love doing, I always feel thankful that the noble Viscount is in front of me and not behind me, especially when he delivers those devastating broadsides of his which are so apt to hit anybody who may be standing anywhere between the noble Viscount and his target, even perhaps a little outside the safety angle. I suppose that is one of the occupational risks of belonging to the Liberal Party.
I am glad to hear that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, intends to take part in a really virile Opposition. I think that that is what the Government
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need, especially in your Lordships' House. We shall look forward, as he put it, to taking square blows from him on the jaw, I hope in a sporting spirit. I am also glad that the noble Lord shows no signs of having become either a Jaywalker or a Gordon Walker, because I like to see a Party in good fighting spirit, and I rather feel that if the advice to which I have alluded were to be taken by the Party opposite—which I am sure it will not be—it might destroy our chances of winning a fourth consecutive Election in 1964.
I know that your Lordships would like our debate to-day to be principally concerned with the second part of the gracious Speech, on domestic affairs, and the only major point raised, I think, by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, which is not explicitly mentioned in the gracious Speech, although it certainly arises out of the paragraph on company law, is what he said about encouraging small investors to own equity shares. The noble Lord did not discuss any detailed plans for achieving this object, but I shall try to tell him as much as I can about it, and my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor will no doubt deal with any legal points at the end of the debate. There are two Acts which my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade thinks ought to be revised: there is the Companies Act, a most voluminous Statute of 450 sections, which was last revised eleven years ago, and which certainly needs another revision now; and there is the Prevention of Fraud (Investments) Act, 1958, which was itself a consolidation of earlier legislation, but which we think may need to be revised again. The President of the Board of Trade intends to appoint a committee to look into these Acts and advise him of any changes which may need to be carried out. I cannot anticipate the timetable—I do not know whether my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack can—but I should certainly not accept without advice the rather pessimistic estimate of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, of two years before anything is done.
There is only one point with which I want to deal in the Prevention of Fraud Act. There are provisions in that Act dealing with unit trusts, which the noble

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Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth mentioned and which are, as it seems to me, the most convenient instrument at the present time for the smallest type of investor to put his money into equity shares. Your Lordships may have seen that it is stated in the Radcliffe Report, as one of its conclusions:
"While the unit trusts movement in this country is still small, it is growing."
And that,
"recent developments may prove to be the beginning of a considerable expansion."
I should think that the best way in which any Government could help to facilitate that movement is by strengthening the protection given to small investors against fraud, because if the movement is to grow, as we should like it to do, it is essential that the investors should have confidence in whatever the institution may be that is entrusted with their money.
As many of your Lordships know, some of the particular suggestions which have from time to time been put forward with the object of giving special privileges to the smallest type of equity investor, sometimes reveal insuperable difficulties on examination. I am sure that the Government will be anxious at least to remove any unnecessary hindrances to the expansion of this movement which we welcome. We stated in our Election manifesto that we want to afford to everyone a fuller opportunity to earn more and to own more. We also said:
"We shall encourage facilities for the small investors to have a stake in British industry."
We certainly intend to implement that statement.
Your Lordships may remember that about six months ago we had a discussion on the record amount of National Savings in 1958, which all your Lordships were very pleased about; and I had to tell your Lordships that, while we hoped for a good year in 1959, we could not really hope to do as well as 1958. Now it seems I am going to be proved wrong, and that we may probably do even better. It certainly must be a good thing that these people who save their money should have a wider variety of possible investments in which to put it. The Government are anxious that more people should take the advantage of the House Purchase Act to become
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owners of their own houses. We very much want to see that, and we also welcome any tendency towards a wider distribution in the ownership of equity capital. We think the widest possible diffusion of property is one of the greatest factors which make for social stability. I think history shows us that a nation among whom there is the largest number of families who own some property of their own always cares a great deal more about freedom than a proletariat which owns nothing.
The basic foundation of all our domestic policy on which everything else depends is our endeavour to combine stable prices with full employment. That subject, I think, was covered fairly well yesterday by my noble friend the Leader of the House and by the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition, I want to add only one or two very general remarks about it.
I think the first purpose, the most important purpose now, of keeping stable prices in this country, is to maintain full employment. I think it is necessary to stress that and to repeat it, because, as your Lordships know, for many years after the war we did combine full employment not with steady prices but with unsteady inflation. How were we able to do that? We are often given by our critics comparative tables of industrial production, expressed in percentages which show, quite rightly, that in terms of percentages a number of countries, like Germany, France and Japan, have been increasing their output much more quickly than Great Britain. Of course the value of these comparisons is slightly moderated by the percentage fallacy which we all know. 'This is that if a man is producing 100 units and he increases production to 110, his production has gone up by 10 per cent. If his neighbour is producing ten units and he increases production by ten, he has not gone up by 10 per cent. but by 100 per cent. So if you say the second man has increased his production by 100 per cent., and the first man only by 10 per cent., it may perhaps conceal the fact that the second man is still a very long way behind the first, and that both have increased their production by the same amount. I do not want to pursue that aspect now, but the point I want to put to your Lordships is this.

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Ten years ago, as a result of war damage and other causes, the industrial production of Germany, for example, was only half what it had been before the war, while the production of Great Britain was 25 per cent. above what it had been before the war. In these conditions, when we had so few competitors, and when all cur foreign customers were so anxious to buy almost anything, it was easy for us to sell our goods abroad, perhaps at a price which was rather higher than it need have been, perhaps delivered later than it should have been, perhaps not of such good quality as it ought to have been, and yet to maintain full employment. But now that the sellers' market, as it was called, has disappeared, and now that we have, in order to live, to sell our goods in face of the most keen and efficient competition from all over the world, it is no longer possible to live if we are inefficient or unpunctual, or if we produce goods at too high a price. That is why it is vital now, in present conditions, that this wage-price spiral, which went on for so many years after the war, should not begin again; and we have got to try to prevent it from beginning again.
How can the Government try to do that? I have often said to your Lordships that the Conservative Party are not against every form of control, and I am going to mention one in a minute when I reply to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, about the Local Employment Bill. We are not against all kinds of control, but we do not believe—and I know that in a debate of this kind your Lordships will not want me to go into the reasons—that controls over the allocation of materials to industry, or controls through the form of licensing designed to keep down prices and to obtain a balanced production, will succeed in their object. We believe that their probable effect will be to restrict production and to send up prices.
We believe that the way in which a Government should try to keep prices stable is, first, through its monetary policy; next, through fiscal policy, and to some extent through the public sector of investment—that is, expenditure below the line in the Budget. It is very difficult indeed to achieve, in a trading country like this, our objective, which is to keep the supply of credit money just a
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little ahead of productive capacity. If you let it get too far ahead you will have inflation. If you let it drop behind you will have under-production and deflation.
Although I do not agree with it, I do not at all think it is a bad thing that we should be criticised by our opponents for creating stagnation, because any Government is liable to make mistakes one way or the other. If you go too far in one direction you should be criticised for causing inflation, and if your critics think you are going too far in the other direction then they ought to criticise you in the opposite sense. But it is very difficult, and I think the difficulty is certainly not reduced by the fact that everything you can ever do to stop inflation, to restrain excessive credit, is always unpopular. You may put on a credit squeeze; you may raise interest rates; you may put on purchase tax; you may reduce hire purchase. All these things are always unpopular.
When you do the opposite—when you take off hire purchase restrictions, reduce purchase tax, reduce interest rates, allow more credit money—that is always popular. Of course, it does not follow that it is always right to do what is unpopular. Nor does it always follow that it is always wrong to do what is popular. The people who always try to do the popular thing will undoubtedly do a lot of harm by causing inflation. On the other hand, the people who take the stern and virtuous attitude of always doing the unpopular thing are not always right. What every Government has got to do is try to keep the right balance. I am encouraged to think that the ordinary people of the country, the electorate of this country, are beginning to understand these economic difficulties much better than they used to do in the past.
I would never claim, and I do not think any Government ought to claim, that it has never made any mistakes. I would claim only that for eighteen months or more now we have maintained stable prices; that production, although of course if you take a percentage basis it is not as great as that of Germany, has over the last ten years more or less kept pace proportionately with production in the United States and Canada, which are more comparable with us; that this year we have reached a record in our export trade; that wages have gone up since

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1956 by 17 per cent., from 100 points to 117 points, while the cost of living has gone up only to 109 points, a position which it reached eighteen months ago and beyond which it has not gone since. Production, which admittedly halted between 1957 and 1958, has in the last twelve months increased by six or seven points.
LORD PAKENHAM: Surely the noble Earl would agree that production was more or less stationary for three and a half years from the spring of 1955 onwards. Surely he is putting rather too kind a gloss on the record of failure.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I think the range of figures I have taken is quite reasonable and fair, and I am doing no more than claim that if what we are now having is stagnation then I should like a little more of it.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Does that mean the noble Earl entirely supports the policy enunciated so clearly by the former Minister of Labour in the last Government, when he said, having reached 620,000 unemployed "I think we have done just enough"?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I do not think that the noble Viscount is correctly representing what the Minister of Labour said. In my recollection the late Minister of Labour never said anything to give the impression, which would have been entirely false, that he wished the unemployment figures to go up. I have often heard him make statements in exactly the opposite sense.
We are told that this is all due to a "bit of luck", to the terms of trade going in our favour. I do not think it is a matter for alarm if in future the terms of trade go against us again, and I will tell your Lordships why I think so. An adverse move in the terms of trade would mean that certain commodity prices for goods produced by our customers abroad, raw materials and so on which we need, were going up; and although we had to pay more, it would mean that our customers, many of whom are in the countries we most want to help, would have more money to buy our goods. Obviously, if commodity prices go down to almost nil, the terms of trade go as far as you can imagine in our favour, our customers will not be able to
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buy anything from us at all. Our interest lies in seeing a balance between reasonable prices for what we need, raw materials and food, and the higher purchasing power of the people, particularly in our own Commonwealth, with whom we are trading who cannot buy our exports unless they have the money to do it. And provided that the rise in commodity prices, if it comes, is not too immoderate or sudden, and, what is most important, provided that it is accompanied by a continuation of sound economic policy here, I think that it is a thing not to be alarmed at and not to be feared but perhaps to be welcomed.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: The noble Earl is not attributing to me the statement that it is all due to the low commodity prices is he? I did not say that this afternoon: I said that it was a contributory factor.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am sure the noble Lord would agree there are other factors, but it has often been put forward by the Party opposite as the sole cause or the main cause of our success in combining stable prices with full employment.
We recognise, as the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, said, that full employment is not distributed uniformly over the country. The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, in the most delightful speech which he made in seconding the Address, referred to Offa's Dyke, which he said had been built for the purpose of keeping the Welsh out of England. He said that it had not succeeded in doing that, and he hoped it would be equally unsuccessful in keeping out of Wales English industries which he wanted to go there. I agree with him about that. There is another protective edifice in England between the Tyne and the Solway which I believe was either built or restored by the Emperor Hadrian and which has been equally unsuccessful. I think there was one Scotsman who, when asked why it was that his countrymen had succeeded in pouring over England and so many other civilised countries with so much success, said, "Well, you see, the Romans and the Chinese both built walls to keep the barbarian robbers out of the civilised world, but the Chinese built a better wall; so here we are." And now that we are here we do not want these walls

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to keep English industries out of Scotland or Wales.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, did not ask any detailed questions about the Local Employment Bill and I shall therefore not devote much of your Lordships' time to it. The Second Reading will be in another place, I think, next week, and your Lordships will no doubt have an opportunity of discussing it after Christmas when the Bill comes up here. He did, however, refer to previous measures on the distribution of industry which have been passed in which we have all taken some part. I had to move the Second Reading of one in 1937 in another place, after which the Scottish Industrial Estate Company was begun. The 1945 Act, which I think was the most important one, was passed just before Sir Winston Churchill went out of office. As the noble Lord said, he assisted in the 1948 Act, and a great deal has been done under all those Acts.
In Dundee, the industrial estate there last year was employing about 6,000 men in factories all built under these Development Area or Distribution of Industry Acts, and when the new factories in that Estate, or extensions approved last year and begun this year, are completed I hope they will be employing a further 1,500 or more. It is all wrong to say that nothing has been done until now. But it is much easier to get a rapid extension of industry in those areas in a period like the present, when expansion of industry is beginning, than when you are in a slack period such as that which resulted from the depression in world trade in 1957. I think perhaps that is a factor which was a little neglected by The Times leading article this morning to which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, referred.
We have done a great deal in the past. You cannot force industries to go into these development areas. You can stop them from going into the conurbations, the congested areas. That is the control to which I referred a few moments ago and which we intend to use fully and thoroughly—to refuse Industrial Development Certificates to industries which want, in the first place, to go into a congested area and which we think ought to try to go into one of the development areas.
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But more than that must be done. They must be given inducements. They have had inducements already which have had a large measure of success. The inducements which are included in the new Bill will, we hope, do a lot more towards persuading a larger number of light industries to go to Wales and to Scotland, and to those parts of Northern England which are most particularly in need of them. But that is not all that we can do to get a better distribution of industry. We are confident that projects like the steel strip mills in South Wales and Lanarkshire will, in time, make it far easier for a greater variety of light industries to establish themselves in these places. The 600 new factories in Scotland, comprising 24 million square feet of factory space, which have been established in the last six or seven years, were not all brought there by the inducements of the Distribution of Industry Acts.
I should like to reply, in this connection only, to what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, said about roads. There are a great many reasons why we want better roads in this country. The chief reason is that transport is the lifeblood of commerce; modern industry is using road transport to a greater extent, and urgently needs more and better roads. It is easy to say that we are not doing enough. Of course we are not. Materials and labour are limited, and one cannot do everything at once. But we are doing twice as much as we have ever done before. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, will not object to my saying that we are doing a great deal more than was being done when he was in the Ministry of Transport. The present four-year programme amounts to £240 million for England and Wales and another £40 million for Scotland. I hope that we are going to have a considerable development of Highland roads. We are going to complete the Glasgow—Carlisle—Edinburgh highway, and the Forth Bridge, and to begin the Tay Bridge. All these things will help to bring new industries to these development areas, where we want them to go. One reason why industries will not go to Wales and Scotland is that they are such a long way from the big industrial markets of Britain, and one way of getting more

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industries to go there is to improve road communications in Britain as a whole.
I should suggest—I think your Lordships will agree—that of all the items of public expenditure in this country, roads should perhaps have the first priority—unless we take education, which should also have a very high priority indeed in public expenditure. In education, eight years ago we were spending £318 million a year in England, and the amount has gone up to over £700 million. In both England and Scotland we are undertaking a greater programme than has ever been undertaken before of training teachers, of building new technical colleges and of expanding our educational services. The former Minister of Education forecast a few weeks ago that by the early 1960's England and Scotland together would be spending £1,000 million a year on education.
In all our social services, too, our activities and our expenditure are going up. Those services for which the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance are responsible cost £1,165 million last year, which was an increase of £85 million on the year before; and the National Health Service is now running at £530 million a year compared with £400 million in 1951.
LORD MESTON: My Lords, will the noble Earl tell me where all the cash is to come from to pay for this?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I have not yet finished telling the House what we are spending; there are some bigger shocks to come. There are many other kinds of social services on which we intend to spend more money. During the last Election, in which I daresay many of your Lordships took part, I seem to remember some not very harmonious exchanges about how the Labour Party were going to pay for their programme, and I often thought that it might redress the balance a little if somebody were to ask us how we were going to pay for ours. But nobody ever did. I was always ready, at all the meetings that I went to, to reply to a question on this subject, but nobody ever asked it—they were all too interested in how the Labour Party were going to pay for theirs. If I had been asked the question—
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, would the noble Earl agree that in comparing
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these figures the depreciation in the value of the pound must be taken into account, and that that is not an inconsiderable factor?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I do not ever want to leave out of account the depreciation in the value of the pound, the value of which has been the same now, I am glad to say, for about eighteen months. But I am talking now about our future expenditure. We were never asked how we were going to pay. But had we been, what I think I should have said is that we were not as specific in our promises about what we were going to do because we thought it was a good thing always to earn the money before it was spent. I think that is a most important principle.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: But you would also have had to add that you would not continue to throw money away, as was done with the £328 million on Suez, or to adopt a policy in which you have now put a burden of hundreds of millions of pounds of floating debts upon local authorities.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Well, we should not be throwing it away on ground-nuts either. But in my view, and in our view, the essential thing is to earn the money before you spend it. If you spend money to-day which you hope to earn to-morrow, the result will probably be that you will never earn it at all, because you will do nothing but create inflation. But if you earn the money first, there is nothing to be afraid of in a big spending programme.
In the next five years we do not expect to have an easy time—we expect to have a very difficult time indeed. But we are determined to do our best to preserve stable prices, on which everything else depends, and we believe that if we can succeed in doing that we shall then succeed in raising the standard of living of our own people, in improving our social services and, what is perhaps most important of all, as was stressed by my noble friend Lord Home last night, in helping our fellow-citizens in the British Commonwealth, whose poverty must be removed and who must be assisted in their economic development by British capital if they are to learn to understand the blessings of freedom and are

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to remain in partnership with us and stay on our side, as we hope they will, in defending freedom and in rejecting tyranny in the rest of the world.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, I hesitate to start complaining so early in the Session, and I know that the noble Earl has had a heavy speech to make, but I should like to excuse myself on the ground that he has not replied to one thing that I said about the shipbuilding industry, which is a vital matter. Is he leaving that matter to be dealt with by the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack when he winds up the debate?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, there are a large number of noble Lords who wish to speak in this debate, and if I were to talk about everything that has been mentioned by the noble Lord and other speakers, I am afraid that I should take up far too much of your Lordships' time. One cannot deal with more than two or three subjects in one's speech. I have not asked my noble and learned friend whether or not he intends to deal with shipping, but if he does not do so I am sure we shall have another early opportunity to discuss that.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, that I appreciate; but the Opposition must really insist that it gets a reasoned reply to a reasoned speech. I quite excuse the noble Earl, but he dealt with a lot of things I did not ask and I thought he might at least have dealt with those about which I did ask.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I can only say, with great respect to the noble Lord, that I was conscious of having replied to a great many of the things which he said, and in fact I really thought I had done him pretty well.
4.56 p.m.
LORD CITRINE: My Lords, I have been a Member of your Lordships' House for a number of years but this is the first occasion upon which I have intervened in your Lordships' debates. I know that what I have to say will be treated with the same generous consideration as is normally accorded by this House on the occasion of a maiden speech. Your Lordships may wonder why it is that I have never intervened before, but the reasons
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are simple: the first, that for eleven years I held the post of Chairman of the British Electricity Authority and its successors and we had a kind of self-denying ordinance, suggested by the Government of the day and affirmed by its successor, that we should not engage in matters of Party political controversy; secondly, that that post provided me with the means of absorbing all my time, and consequently my attendances here had to be rather sporadic.
Your Lordships will therefore see that it was not that I was deterred by any feeling of awe when I came here and gazed at the serried ranks opposite. Your Lordships are far too genial, as compared with other audiences whom it had been my duty to address, for me to feel anything of that kind. I have derived great pleasure and instruction from listening to the debates in this House, with the complete absence of acerbity—somewhat different from the environment in which I functioned in the trade union movement—and an objectivity and clarity of expression which I have many times envied. I have also been struck by the fact that whatever subject comes before this House there is always to be found somewhere a noble Lord with expert knowledge of that subject; and as I have never yet been able to claim myself as an expert upon anything, I have been the more impressed.
Now the work with which I have been concerned for the greater part of my life has been, of course, industrial relations. They cover almost every phase of human nature, and I hope that in the years which I spent in the trade union movement I did acquire some insight into the kind of problems which were met with in industry generally. I am going to confine my remarks entirely to one paragraph of the gracious Speech, paragraph 3 at the top of page 3 of the printed Address, in which it is stated:
"My Ministers will strive to maintain full employment, together with steady prices, a favourable balance of payments and a continuing improvement in standards of living based on increasing production and a rising rate of investment"—
three lines and one word, but how pregnant with significance for the wellbeing of this country and its people! I hope also, if time permits, to make some observations in regard to the remarks that were made by the noble Lord who

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seconded the Address in that thoughtful speech to which I had the good fortune to listen. That the declared policy of Her Majesty's Government is to strive for full employment must meet with the hearty commendation of every thoughtful citizen. It is not the first time, of course, that the Government and its predecessors have affirmed that policy, and I thought the very fair references which were made this afternoon by the noble Earl who preceded me showed sincerity in trying to carry out that desirable aim.
I welcome the declaration because I know how essential it is that it should be reiterated as a statement of Government policy on every conceivable occasion. There is no political difference between the Parties on this aim, although, of course, there are differences in respect of the methods of achieving the aim. I stress this point because of the imperative need, as I see it, to convince the ordinary working man and working woman of the determination to achieve this purpose. My experience is that they are frankly sceptical—not sceptical of the sincerity of purpose of the respective parties, but of the possibility of achievement. Most of them have heard from fathers or older relatives and workmates of the days when unemployment was rife in this country, when employment was almost completely unstable and when it was a lucky man or woman who was able to get what we used to describe euphemistically as "a full-time job".
Even to-day it is difficult for the ordinary man or woman to appreciate that we have full employment when the latest returns show over 400,000 people out of work, wholly unemployed. I believe that in January last the figures were about 600,000. If I may say so without misunderstanding, I firmly believe that in this realm of economic affairs some phases of this problem are beyond the control of individual Governments, whatever their political colour. Therefore I myself share in some measure the doubts as to whether, with the best will in the world, it is possible to maintain full employment, even at the level of 2 to 2½ per cent. unemployment which is the broad definition of full employment.
I do not know whether Members who sit on the opposite Benches, in particular, realise that this question of unem
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ployment and the fears of it lie at the root of so much of our industrial trouble. There is a feeling of impermanence, of not belonging to a particular firm or even a particular industry. I am quite certain that it is the root cause of those vexatious demarcation questions which so frequently turn up, which make the trade union movement look ridiculous in the eyes of the public and which are the bugbear of all balanced trade union officials. So I hope that there will be no, as it were, slackening in the determination to achieve full employment.
I recognise that we are now working under difficulties, as we have been in the whole of the post-war period. In the normal course of things, in pre-war days, there was comparative mobility of labour. Workmen followed the job. If the job could be obtained in a distant town they moved to that town, with some prospect of getting housing. But not once during the post-war period have we been in that fortunate circumstance; and, frankly, I do not know how rapidly we are overcoming that very great difficulty. Naturally, anything that can be done, such as the Local Employment Bill, to enable districts that are specially hard hit to achieve a greater measure of employment, is a good thing. I have not studied this Bill; I do not know what its provisions really are; but in broad principle it is a thing which we ought to approve. I must say—and I hope that I am not speaking in any pontifical fashion—that I think that kind of remedy is much slower in its effect and more limited in its scope than can be generally realised. It takes time to build factories—they do not spring up over night—and it takes quite a long period before remedies of that kind, however desirable, can really become effective.
My second point is in regard to full employment with steady prices. What is the use of any person engaged in public life denying, for example, that the Index of the cost of living had been comparatively stable over the last eighteen months or two years? That Index has been under the scrutiny of the trade unions for years. They have been most sceptical about the weightings, and the representatives of the T.U.C. have functioned on the committees, the advisory

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bodies, which have dealt with the forming of the Index and the various weightings. So I should be the last to challenge the statement that the Index has been stable. But I think noble Lords might remember the words of the Prime Minister in his first broadcast, I think, just preceding or at the beginning of the Election period, when he said, "Of course, we have had a bit of luck." Why deny it? Why deny that there has been luck in the situation? And I am very pleased there has been luck, too, because it has enabled our country to engage in a measure of, as it were, rehabilitation that might not otherwise have been possible.
While the Index has been steady and the cost of living stable over this period, there has been very little in the way of a fall in the price level. I see in this morning's Times that yesterday the National Joint Advisory Council of the Ministry of Labour, a body which I had the honour of helping to initiate during the days, the early days, of the war, were themselves examining this very question. Producers said, according to the report I saw in The Times, "We have passed these reductions on to the retailers and it is for the retailers to explain what has happened", and the retailers' representatives promised to look into the matter. From the point of view of the ordinary trade unionist it is quite a long time when reductions which were felt two years ago have yet to find their way into material reductions in the prices of things in the shops. I am the first to render testimony to those progressive firms in the retail trade who have given a lead in this matter. I shall not mention names, for obvious reasons. They are few but they are very notable, and those that have done it have been animated, in my belief, with a sense of public spirit and responsibility; but the reductions have certainly not been general.
My next point concerns the phrase in regard to:
"… improvement in standards of living based on increasing production".
If I may be permitted to say so, that is a rather more cautious way of expressing it than the words of the right honourable gentleman the Home Secretary some year or so ago when he said that the aim was to double the standard of living in the
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course of twenty-live years. I find—I am not trying to pick holes—some ambiguity in the phrasing used. To me it is implicit that in the period of expansion that is envisaged, together with stable prices there will be some improvement in wages. I cannot believe that anyone would deny that wages and prices are the two ingredients in determining the standard of living for the ordinary man or woman. There are other things, but I am now dealing purely with material and major factors. I would not expect for a minute that any pledge would be given anywhere that wages and salaries should be raised in proportion to increases in the productivity of the country; I would not expect that, because it would clearly lead to inflation, and there must be a measure of ploughing back into industry of the advances and the additions that have been made as a consequence of the increased production. But I am entitled to ask, "Increased production of what?" Is it increased production of the national output? Is that what is meant?
What about the position of particular firms and industries? We all know that some firms are more efficient than others. We all know that some firms prefer, rather than belonging to their "trade union", the employers' association, to bargain directly with the trade unions themselves. I am not sure whether I can completely endorse that attitude of mind. On the whole I would rather deal with an employers' association. But those firms, in their dealings with the trade unions, should have in front of them, as the trade unions have, the position of the particular firm—whether the firm is prosperous, whether the firm is in a position to bear an increase in wages, say, or, in current events, a reduction of working hours. I am not now talking, of course, of individual firms which are linked up in an employers' association. I should think very little of a trade unionist who went behind the backs of his union and bargained individually with the boss. And, in a similar way, I think it is the duty of the employers who are in the employers' associations to be loyal to those associations. But I noticed the report in the newspapers this morning about the Imperial Chemical Industries having reduced hours from forty-four to forty-two a week. They say that they are not going to pass on the cost of that reduction to the public; that

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they will meet the increased cost consequent upon that reduction by economies inside the organisation.
Here I think I am entitled to ask: What is the Government's policy? Do the Government take the view that wage increases should not take place in such circumstances, even if those wages increases are above the increase in the national production? If the Government do take that attitude, then I am afraid that they are going to upset quite a lot of people in a great many industries. Normal negotiations between trade unions and employers in this country are carried on by separate industrial councils and by employer and trade union bodies; everybody knows that. There is no central organisation in existence, either on the part of the trade unions or on the part of the employers, that is competent—when I say that, I do not mean personal competence, but competent from the point of view of its constitution and power—to carry on negotiations of a central character. Negotiations take place entirely upon the economics of the industry concerned; and while national considerations are never lost sight of, they certainly are not regarded as a justifiable reason for declining advances in wages and salaries which exceed the increase in the national production.
I do not want to be pedantic about this matter, and I am limited in what I have to say by other considerations which I cannot advance; but there is a real misunderstanding of this point and I think it is an obligation upon Government spokesmen to make the matter clear. The right honourable gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer said last year in public, in reference to one set of negotiations which were going on, that on the whole the outcome of those negotiations would not embarrass the Government because the increase was in line with the increase in the national output. Then yesterday the right honourable gentleman the President of the Board of Trade said something very like that.
He said (I hope I am in order in quoting what was said in another place) that it was essential to combine expansion in production with the maintenance of stable prices. In answer to the question, "How is that to be ensured in the face of increasing expansion?", he said
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that one of the essentials was to ensure that personal incomes as a whole—note those words, my Lords, "as a whole"—did not not outstrip the increase in the general rate of productivity. If incomes generally expanded themselves, then production prices must inevitably rise. I think that is, on the whole, common sense; but it is that reference to the whole of the incomes, the general rise, which puzzles me, and I am sure that it is puzzling a great many trade unionists at this moment. Therefore, I personally think that the Government would do a service by clearing away this ambiguity as to what they feel future wage increases should rest upon.
I hope that nothing will be done to fetter the freedom of collective bargaining between employers and trade unions in industry. I was for 18 years President of the International Federation of Trade Unions, and I was the first President of the World Federation of Trade Unions, and I have seen something of what happens in other countries. I have generally felt very proud of our own arrangements in this country, and of the sense of give-and-take which is so prevalent among our employers and trade unionists—and that feeling has been borne in upon me very much more when I have been abroad than when I have been at home.
Now, my Lords, may I say a few words about the observations of the noble Lord who seconded the humble Address? His observations were necessarily condensed. It is impossible in a discussion of this kind to develop any point really materially—at least, I find it so. In a few words he posed two problems which I think will give a good deal of cause for thought in the ranks of industry. He called for new initiatives by the Government, the unions and the employers in respect of unofficial strikes, and more method in settlement of wage claims. I am extremely sorry that this point could not be developed, because I, for one, should have liked to know what really was intended. As your Lordships know, I have no official trade union status: I am simply an ordinary trade unionist of some 47 years' membership in the skilled section of my own union—and possibly because of the apprehensions I have expressed earlier about the maintenance of full employment, I have been prudent enough to

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become a member of the Hoboes of America. I have my card here to establish my credibility, and if my time of trial comes along I at least know where to go.
No one is more troubled about the epidemic of unofficial strikes than the ordinary trade union officer. They are vexatious; they are irritating; they discredit the trade unions, and they endanger the agreements upon which collective bargaining rests. I do not think the average man in the workshop, or even the average woman, thinks it is at all possible that the employers might refuse to negotiate and make agreement with trade unions if, after making those agreements, they are flagrantly broken by the members of the unions. They do not contemplate that possibility; but, with some memory of what happened in the days before industrial relations were so intimate, I do not exclude that possibility.
At the same time, we have got to keep these things in perspective. The numbers affected are small. Many of the strikes have been described as "wildcat" strikes. A few hundred key men, unfortunately, have stopped work, and almost immediately other men are sent home because processes have been disrupted. I am not so sure that that has always been quite so immediately necessary, and there may be more behind that part of it than meets the eye. The country has been practically free from strikes. We have not anything like the steel strike in the United States, which has lasted now for 14 weeks—I think a little over 14 weeks. We have had nothing of that kind in this country for at least 33 years—I am referring back now to the national strike of 1926. Let us also remember that these strikes are not always the work of—what might I say?—hot-headed and foolish people. Sometimes they are based on genuine grievances. We have a long way to go in industry to-day before the broadminded policy of those who are directing affairs in industry percolate through the chain of command so that they are effective and the dealings of foremen and lower managers are in the same broad spirit and desire for harmony as those at the top.
There are incidents that happen in the workshops that leave men with the
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feeling that they have no other alternative but to get out on the streets. Sometimes they are used, and I think regrettably used, as a stimulus to speed up negotiations between employers and trade unions. In my lifetime, I have seen a revolution in the method of negotiation. In my early days, negotiations were almost entirely on a local basis. The unions and the employers, particularly after the First World War, gradually adopted the system of national negotiation, which incidentally poses a very real problem of internal government in the trade union movement, because of inability always to communicate accurately and speedily with the individual men and women in the workshops. National negotiation takes time. One cannot possibly arrive at conclusions overnight on the presentation of a case, or answer questions with assurance on a change that may affect a million or more men, without some mature consideration. One has to take a little time and see just what is involved. I think that, broadly speaking, such negotiations are carried out expeditiously, having regard to all the circumstances. I can only say this: if the position were reversed and if a period came when the employers had to approach the trade unions for the purpose of reducing wages, the trade unions would give us object lessons in procrastination.
Undoubtedly there is a measure of Communist exploitation behind these strikes. It is not always very obvious. But one can always be certain that somewhere in the heart of the shop stewards' committees, or whatever bodies there may be, there will be some nucleus of Communists. My experience as a trade union official showed many instances of that. Your Lordships should remember that these people genuinely believe that employers and workers are in two hostile camps—as it were, two armies prepared to do battle on the first opportunity. Do not just dismiss this as some kind of malicious thinking, because this thought is present in the minds of many good and competent workmen who have been misguided enough to find their way into the Communist Party or under their influence. They do not want industrial peace. Why should they? They believe that the capitalist system is collapsing. I myself have been looking rather keenly over a

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period of some fifty years or so for signs of the collapse, but I am very sorry to say that my perception is inadequate and I cannot see them very clearly.
I am not silly enough to believe that the capitalist system, the industrial system of this country, is static. It is subject to the same laws of evolutionary change as any other form of society of human beings, and it is a very different system from the one I encountered when I first became a trade unionist. But the Communist sees things tottering, as it were. He sees crises and all that sort of thing. He is certain that there will be a crisis of unemployment and that the cold war—I am sorry, the class war; it is almost the same thing—which was spoken of earlier by one noble Lord as having disappeared, is a reality. I myself think that it is a fantastic interpretation of history, but there are thousands who believe it.
Noble Lords may say, with others: why do not the unions discipline their members? I wish that those who put this view forward strongly would just inquire about what powers the unions have. It must be remembered that the unions are voluntary associations. They have only finally a moral authority over their members. Suppose they fine their members, and the member or members concerned refuse to pay the fine. What power of enforcement is there? As the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor well knows, a certain section of trade union affairs is deliberately barred from the law courts. No trade union can go to a law court and ask for the continuance of contributions from members. Nothing of that kind is possible.
Suppose the union then expels the member or members—and there may be some hundreds or thousands of them. What takes place then? Are they cleared out of the factory? Has there to be some kind of bargain between the trade union, on the one side, and the particular employer, on the other, that these men will be excluded from work in that factory? I personally should not approve of such a bargain, if it ever became possible, and I do not think that many people would. So the net effect would be that we have a non-union shop by the exclusion of those people from the union.
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I am talking about something that actually happened. I remember a dispute in London at a very unfortunate time, at the time of the Coronation of King George VI. I will not particularise, because I do not want to appear to be pillorying anybody. Some thousands of men ceased work and the union subsequently had an inquiry. The outcome of the inquiry was that the union disqualified some of the members from benefit and excluded others. Then what happened? The men remained at work. They were not driven out. As a matter of fact, there was some legal disability on the employer's power to discharge the men. The final outcome was that a breakaway union was formed and for years that union was a thorn in the side of the industry. In my judgment, suspension from benefit is very unlikely to be a deterrent. I can only say that those trade unions who have taken the risks involved in disciplinary action ought to be admired; but we do not hear about those unions very much, although there are some notable instances of it happening.
I have dealt with the trade unions' part and want to say a phrase or two about the employers. We must remember that most of these unofficial strikes are strikes in breach of contract, so that the employer has legal power to recover from the workers for their breach of contract; but few employers use that method. They do not want to have disgruntled men who, when work is resumed, have a grievance which is reflected in the work, because the modern employers know that the best means of increased output is good relations and a happy working force.
I have simply mentioned a few considerations, but there are many, many more. I have no doubt at all that the Trades Union Congress has embarked on a very serious inquiry, possibly one of the most serious of its whole history, and will deal with this in a genuine and thorough spirit. I know the people who constitute the T.U.C. They are responsible men; they are thoughtful men; they are, on the whole, very good men, and I am sure that they will discharge their duty not only to their own members and to the trade union movement at large but also to the community. If I have appeared to have engaged myself

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too much on the union side of this subject, I hope your Lordships will pardon me, because I believe that it lies right at the heart of our industrial prosperity.
5.30 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I know your Lordships would wish to join me in offering to the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, our heartiest congratulations on the interesting, constructive and informed maiden speech to which we have just listened. The noble Lord has explained to us why it is that he has been a Member of your Lordships' House for—what is it?—nearly thirteen years without addressing us. This House must be one of the very few Houses where a maiden can become a teenager before uttering a single word. The noble Lord disclaimed any expert knowledge. He was too modest. It is no mere cliché to say that we hope we shall hear from him again. He speaks with unrivalled authority upon matters which will be before your Lordships on frequent occasions in the days to come. We shall not only want to hear from the noble Lord again; we shall need to. I will turn in a moment to one or two of the points that the noble Lord made in his speech.
One of the advantages of a substantial Parliamentary majority is that the Government can indulge in the luxury of a thumping row in the early stages of its life. We are to have, so the gracious Speech tells us, a Betting and Gaming Bill. I hope that that will be a controversial Bill, not simply because I have not indulged in the luxury of a thumping row myself for some time but because, if it is a controversial Bill, it will be a good Bill. The last time we discussed this matter in your Lordships' House we came to certain broad conclusions upon which we thought that a Bill might be based. What happened? No Bill. And why? Because nobody else could agree on anything: the bookmakers, the trainers, the racehorse owners, the racecourse owners, the police, the local authorities, the Church and the public all disagreed on every single basic point. If, then, the Government produce an agreed measure, it will probably be a weak and wishy-washy compromise. I therefore hope that they will go ahead without consultation and produce a Bill of their own.
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My noble friend Lord Dundee, in the course of his interesting speech, mentioned some matters upon which a Government could be popular or unpopular. A Government that tries to please everybody—as I hope will not happen in this case—is like a puppy trying to follow four children at the same time. My only regret about this portion of the gracious Speech is that the Government have not gone further and taken the opportunity of dealing with certain other controversial social matters which are in crying need of reform. Your Lordships are familiar with them all. We have debated them time and time again in this House: the licensing laws, Sunday observance, stage censorship and even our old friends the shares of no par value. These are matters that will all raise controversy and political heat, and it is in the early stages of the Government's life that they should be tackled. I hope that the Government will not shy away from such controversy. I hope that the Government will disregard the advice that the apostle St. Paul gave to the Corinthians in the Second Epistle that he addresed to that turbulent community. He spoke to them about:
"Giving no offence in anything, that the Ministry be not blamed."
As I say, I hope that the Government will disregard that advice, and if they are going to put these matters before us in legislative form I beg of them that they shall be their own Bills and not the result of further investigation by committees. We depend too much upon committees. First, you must have a balanced committee. If one is being set up you can almost guess in advance what its composition will be. It will come to a balanced conclusion, taking all points into consideration and only agreeing on trivialities. The trouble with the Wolfenden Report is that the Minority Report is stronger than the Report itself. The ideal committee, in my view, consists of three people, with myself in the chair and the other two in bed with laryngitis. I therefore beg the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack to assure us that we shall not have any more fact-finding committees. What we now want is fact-facing committees.

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A law that is in disrepute brings all law into disrepute. One of the most unfortunate things to-day is the deteriorating relations between the police and the public; and the reason for that is that the police are having to enforce laws in which the public have lost confidence and respect. The legislation for which I ask will bring the cry that if you reform this, that or the other particular law it will be the thin end of the wedge. We heard that at the time of the Bill to allow people to drink round the clock at international airports. The British Constitution is stuck full of wedges which the common sense of the community has never driven home. I hope, therefore, that the Government, in their next legislative programme, will realise that reform of the law ought to acknowledge that what is sensible will be obeyed and what is nonsense will not be obeyed.
The ill-fated Shops Bill, which contained much that was sensible, was eventually killed by ridicule; and nothing kills a Bill more quickly than ridicule. People suddenly realised that in Clause 17 we had thirty-seven lines of the draftsmans' deathless prose to lay down the principle that only a practising Jew could operate as a barber in Scotland on Sunday. That killed the Bill. The ideal in shops legislation and in many similar matters would be to remove all restrictions completely for about six months and see what happened. What would evolve would be a sensible law produced by people who wished to obey it. I sometimes think that in our hatred of dictatorship and our fear of bullying we go too far in listening to minority voices. We lean over backwards to avoid hurting minority feelings, treading on minority toes, and we produce a nonsense: we allow the minority to dictate to common sense. I admire the principles of some of these extreme minorites, but I cannot get out of my mind Lord Melbourne's sage advice: that nobody did anything very foolish except from some very high principle.
Some of these matters your Lordships may well think could be dealt with by Private Members' Bills. I am not certain that I am quite happy about this. I think that, with certain honourable exceptions like Mr. Roy Jenkins and Sir A. P. Herbert, Private Members' legislation on these social matters, tends to be piecemeal, untidy and scrappy. I feel
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that on the whole it is the duty of a Government, and particularly a Government with popular support behind it such as this Government enjoys, to give a lead. I say this against myself, because I warn your Lordships that I propose to indulge in some private legislation myself. I propose to reintroduce my Marriage Enabling Bill which seeks to clear up the nonsense about the divorced wife's sister. Your Lordships when I first introduced the Bill were kind enough to give it support, although admittedly several Bishops came to your Lordships' House and said: "A vote for Mancroft is a vote for incest." Apart from that, as I say, it was supported. But what happened? Owing to an outrageous piece of skulduggery and jiggery-pokery in the Whip's Office, my Bill was pushed aside in order that an unpopular measure could be blocked in another place. I have neither forgiven nor forgotten that. As I say, I hope to reintroduce this Bill in the near future, and I hope that your Lordships will then be as kind as the Royal Commission which supported it by sixteen votes to three.
The noble Lord, Lord Citrine, puts me to mind of one other point that is omitted from the gracious Speech. There is no mention of the word "denationalisation". Your Lordships may say that any Conservative expecting to find the word "denationalisation" in the gracious Speech ought to join the gallant and noble Field Marshal's lunatics. The reason why I make the point is this. The noble Lord, Lord Citrine, has reminded us that we hope to double our standard of living in the next twenty-five years. He can see no immediate decline in the capitalist system. I am delighted that his sight does him no more service than that.
In order to achieve that increase in our standard of living, we have to increase our overseas trade. Seventy-five per cent. of our overseas trade is still in the hands of free enterprise. The rest of our economy, railways, gas, electricity, the mines, and so on, is nationalised. For the next four or five years at least there is to be no chance of more nationalisation. It will be an impertinence of me to inquire into the inquiry which is going on among noble, Lords I and their friends opposite, but I

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naturally hope that for many years to come there will be no chance of any more nationalisation. There is certainly to be no denationalisation, because although noble Lords who sit on this side of the House vehemently opposed the proposals for nationalisation as they came up one by one, we are now equally firmly of opinion that to try to unscramble any more of the eggs would result in chaos and do infinitely more harm than good.
We are now settling down to a mixed economy. A proportion of it is private enterprise, which is responsible for earning the daily bread which will bring the standard of living we require. The other is nationalised and constitutes many of the basic industries and services of the country. We have to learn to make those two work better together in harness. It was no help to private enterprise, in trying to earn the country's daily bread, to be constantly girned at, nagged and threatened, or to have the Sword of Damocles hanging over its head: "Was this firm part of the six hundred or not?" It was no help at all to those firms trying to reorganise and develop their capabilities. It was no help to their credit and reputation abroad. Equally, it is no good perpetually nagging and girning at the nationalised industries. By all means let us examine them with a critical eye and suggest improvements where we can. But the men and women who work in the nationalised industries are not vermin and they are not lunatics. They are our next door neighbours. They are our flesh and blood. To be constantly nagging and girning at them because we disapproved in the first place of the nationalisation of their industry can do them no good, can do their industry no good and can do the country no good. We have to face the fact that we are settling, down permanently to a mixed economy of free enterprise and the nationalised industries. Let noble Lords who dislike free enterprise, leave it alone, stop threatening, stop girning at it, and let those who dislike nationalisation give those who earn their living in it a chance to give of their best. By all means let us put our respective houses in order.
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The noble Lord, Lord Citrine, has given us many helpful ways in which industrial relations could be improved and has given us his views about the "wildcat" strikes which we are having at present. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has referred to the need for commerce and the City to put its house in order. Let both put their own houses in order first, rather than asking for Government inquiries or committees to do it for them. All this may make things dull for those who write political pamphlets, but I think it might be good for the country.
5.44 p.m.
LORD LATHAM: My Lords, I should wish at the outset to pay my felicitations to my noble friend Lord Citrine on his most admirable speech this afternoon. As one would expect from his wide—indeed, almost unique—experience, he spoke in an informed, sagacious and impressive manner on the problems, so pressingly before us, to which he devoted his speech, and we all hope that we may frequently have the advantage of the advice of our noble friend.
I am sure we shall all be pleased to hear the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, again, although perhaps from a somewhat different location. He certainly seems to be enjoying his galloping freedom, and his speech this afternoon shows that he has been able to draw encouraging—shall I say self-generating—exhilaration from the new pastures where he is. Yesterday, as your Lordships will recall, the noble Lord, Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, inquired as to what a tycoon was. With all respect, I think that perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, may be able ultimately to answer that question.
I must confess that in my view the gracious Speech is a disappointing document. It is pedestrian; it is unimaginative. It s not as it could have been, especially coming from a Government recently returned with an impressive majority. It is not a pattern of an expanding and developing future of a rising standard of living, or of rewarding prospects. If I may say so, it strikes me as being a rag-bag of leftovers which have gone somewhat stale in the basement. It is a speech of bits and pieces, each useful in itself but not forming an inspiring programme. It might, I think,

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fairly be described as an exercise in minimums where it ought to have been an exercise in possibles and potentials. The content of the Address inspires no enthusiasm, and there is no sense of a beckoning call to greatness; to endeavour or to achievement. It reminds me of the slogan "Safety First!", which was adopted, I think, at the 1923 Election by the then Mr. Baldwin. And what a depressing, what an unworthy, what an uninviting slogan it was! Whereas what we need in this country, not only for this country but as a country leading the Commonwealth, is challenge, a sense of boldness which is not present in the gracious Speech.
I propose to address my remarks principally to two matters. One is the reference in the gracious Speech to an inquiry into the Companies Act, and the other the legislation contemplated with regard to building societies. I may perhaps say that I am not without experience in relation to the Companies Acts and provisions to protect shareholders and the public, being the founder, as I was in 1932, of the Shareholders' Protection Association, many of whose recommendations and submissions received favourable consideration by the Cohen Committee.
My good friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth has suggested that what is wanted is something speedier than an inquiry into the operation of the Companies Act. It is, I think, useful to understand that the legislation in this country with regard to companies has followed, by and large, the principle of the social contract. Parliament said that if people are to be relieved of personal liability for obligations which they may create, then they must do it on terms; and the terms are the terms of the varying Companies Acts which from time to time have been put upon the Statute Book. It is an odd fact that in the past there has been, roughly speaking, an inquiry every twenty years. There was the Act of 1908; there was an Inquiry, and the Act of 1929 superseded it. In 1945 there was another Inquiry, and the Act of 1947, consolidated into the Act of 1948, resulted. I suppose that the twelve years could be regarded in the increased tempo of life as being almost equal to the twenty years which was formerly the case.
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My own view is that what is needed in connection with the Companies Act at the present time is not a full-scale general review. The Cohen Committee's work was a monument, and so was the Act which flowed from the recommendations of that Committee. I think that those who are concerned with operating the Act would say that, by and large, its provisions are adequate and provide reasonable protection and safeguards for the shareholders and—this is not less important—for the general public, who are, after all, the creditors and suppliers of the corporation.
But it is quite clear that there are certain aspects in which the present Companies Act is defective and inadequate, and it seems to me that in order to avoid a long, protracted examination into the whole of the operations of the Act it would be better to consider in what respect the Act could be amended to deal ad hoc with some of the problems which have emerged since 1947, such as the provision for non-voting shares, which as regards the provision for requisitioning a meeting result in the shareholders, the non-voting shareholders, having no rights whatsoever. In that respect and in several other respects the non-voting shares have, as it were, nullified the provisions which it was intended should be operative in order to protect the rights of the shareholders. Moreover, non-voting shares are, it is submitted, a denial of democracy; they are certainly a denial of the rights of those persons who have, as experience shows, put up most of the money, and we find equity shareholders, who bear the first burden of adversity, in an inferior position to a preference shareholder who has the right to vote if the payment of dividend is in default. It seems to me to be a Gilbertian situation which ought to be remedied as soon as possible.
It may be, as has been suggested by the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, that some of the difficulties which are at present being faced could be met by an amendment of the Prevention of Fraud Act. The disturbing thing about the non-voting share is that it is now passing at a discount in comparison with a similar share enjoying no more rights and no less but having the right to vote. We have seen an instance recently where the right to vote has been bought by certain shareholders. One enlightened chairman of a big undertaking where there are, I think,

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some £21 million worth of non-voting shares, wisely indicated yesterday that he would be pleased to consider the question, I take it, of the restoration or the conferment of the right to vote.
Another aspect of this non-voting shareholder problem is that it results in passing the control into the hands of a relatively speaking small number of shareholders, which can have its social implications as well as its company implications and can lead, as is unhappily the case in quite a number of directions, to the creation of industrial and commercial empires, which I suggest is not in the interests of the country as a whole. It is interesting to observe that in two recent cases where complaint has been made with regard to the non-voting shares the companies are engaged not in the industrial activities of the country but in commercial activities.
That brings me to prospectuses. My own view is that there is too much in a prospectus for anyone, even the experts, to understand exactly what it means in toto; they may understand particular sections. In seeking to protect the shareholders or the intended shareholders, the contributories, we have insisted upon there being too much put into the prospectus. If it could be arranged that there should be published a summary of the material points of a prospectus with the right of inspection for persons who wanted to go into the finer details of the operation, it seems to me it would be much to the interest of the subscribing public. The trouble at the moment is that the right of action by the Board of Trade (who do a first-class job in connection with the operation of the Companies Act, as well as, I do not doubt, otherwise) is, relatively speaking, very limited, and where they can act they can do so only when in most cases—and I speak from some experience—it is too late.
I agree that it is difficult to give powers to a Government Department as it were in anticipation, because one is involved in constitutional considerations and questions of the liberty of the subject; but it might well be that some procedure could be devised which would enable the Board of Trade not necessarily to take penal action, but to take action on advice or consultation and the like, before these
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concerns really get deeply into the mire (if I may use that phrase) and the money of the creditors and shareholders has been lost. It might be worth while considering whether we should establish in this country a body similar to the Securities and Exchange Commission which regulates and investigates matters of this kind in the United States of America. I am not quite sure that it extends to all the States, but it certainly does to quite a number.
The problem then arises as to whether, if that body were established—of course, powers could be given to it of a wider, more effective and decisive character than can properly and normally be given to a Government Department—it would supplement, or would be a duplication of, what is being done by the Stock Exchange. I think it is only fair to say, especially at the present time, with the difficulties which have occurred, that the Stock Exchange has really greatly improved its status and standing with the people of this country, both those engaged intimately in the City and elsewhere. I think we owe a good deal for that to Sir John Braithwaite, the former Chairman of the Stock Exchange; and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Ritchie of Dundee, who has succeeded him, will carry on the good work.
Then there is the other question of whether it is worth while continuing the rather curious anomaly of the exempt private company. It was thought at the time that there would not be sufficient auditors and accountants available to deal with the accounts of all the private companies, and therefore a separate class was created, and upon that class there was no similar obligation of having accounts audited by qualified persons. I think the general view is that, happily, the anticipated difficulties did not materialise, and it might well be that that matter could be considered.
I pass from that to the question of take-overs. I think we must distinguish between a genuine take-over or merger and the others. There are cases, of course, where a merger can be, and there are cases where it clearly has been, to the advantage of all concerned. I think it can be fairly said that recently there have been take-overs in which neither of those results can be seen to have emerged. It is argued in support of take-overs that they frequently result

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in the more efficient use of assets; but it also arises from the fact that the directors have in the past followed the practice, which is not beneficial in every respect, of ploughing back profits. The result is that the company has either a large sum of cash invested at short notice or invested in medium-term bonds, and it is that cash which attracts the people—many of them; I will not say all of them—who are concerned with a takeover.
It seems to me that it is difficult to do anything under the Companies Act, but there ought clearly to be a provision to prevent agreements from being signed before the shareholders have been consulted, which I think was the case—I say this subject to correction—with the British Aluminium Company; and that the rights of the minority which are at present enjoyed under the Companies Act should be protected. One must couple with that the overriding rights also of the majority, which rather diminish the rights of the minority. My submission is that provision should be made that the minority shareholders shall be protected and shall not be subject to having their shares bought by the majority at a price which is related to that which has been paid as the basis on which the scheme goes through. I think that minority shareholders, vexatious and a nuisance as they may be, ought to be protected and their rights preserved. Indeed, that would lead to more care being exercised and more justice being practised by those who are concerned with take-overs.
There then arises the question as to who should have the benefit resulting from the abnormal increase of the value of the shares on the Stock Exchange if the scheme does not go through. There has been a notable case. It seems to me that, in the same way as it is now provided in the Companies Act that if a director gets something personal to himself without appropriate authority from the company and its shareholders he has to divide that among all the shareholders, it might be a salutary provision to have something of that kind in connection with the promoters of these take-over projects.
The question of the social aspects of these take-overs also arises. The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, said quite properly yesterday, in his most excellent
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speech, that the parties concerned in industry were more than the employer and the employed; there was the consumer—in short, the public. That is so. The citizen is the producer and the consumer. But he is something more than the sum total of those two, and if takeovers are put through on the basis of enhanced values of shares, somebody has to earn the money to pay the additional return which the increased price of the shares attracts and must have; and most of it, of course, would come from the consumer. It is not without interest to note that, leaving aside, perhaps, the British Aluminium Company case, practically all the large take-over schemes have been concerned with consumer production—not with heavy industrial production—or with consumer durables where, of course, the increased cost can be much more easily passed on.
There is the further question, if the Companies Act are to be surveyed, of whether provision should be made for further information to be given and published. I think it is fair to say that in the United States of America, in Scandinavia, in India, and, I believe, in certain other Commonwealth countries, much more information is given in the report which is published than is the case in this country. My own view is that it would be of benefit to industry and commerce, as well as to the nation at large, if that information were given. I will not read out all the headings of information which are required to be given in Scandinavia. I will, however, quote from The Times of October 9, 1957, which shows briefly the position in America:
"In America the principle of full disclosure has long been a basic one in accounting presentations, as witness the requirements of the Securities and Exchange Commission relating to the form and content of financial statements of commercial and industrial companies."
I am well aware that at almost every stage in the extension of the requirements of the Companies Act as regards publishing information, certain industrialists and business people have objected on the ground that it would mean giving information to their competitors and that they would be placed at a disadvantage. There is nothing that can be put in evidence to show that that has been the case, and if these great undertakings, dependent upon and being a part of the economic set-up of this country, are

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to carry on, whether through a takeover or otherwise, operations embracing the population, then the population is entitled to some information, if not in detail, as to how the price, for instance, which is charged for a particular article is arrived at, and what the operations of the company are. It seems to me that in no better way can free enterprise discharge its responsibilities to the public as a consumer than by publishing information by which the public can judge as to whether the concern is reasonably conducted and whether the profit and expense margins and other elements which go to make up the accounts are reasonable. It is too late for me to develop that subject now, but it seems to me to be a matter well worth consideration. We are behind, and very much behind, some countries in that respect. I will not say that in other respects some countries are better off than we are in relation to the legal obligations of accounts.
I come now to building societies. Perhaps I should first make a declaration of interest. I am one of the vice-presidents of the Building Societies' Association. What I am about to say is my own; I have not asked the Association for a brief, or for their views. Unhappy as have been one or two events recently, I think it would be a little unfortunate if it were thought that the building societies as a whole need to be watched and looked after more in the future than they have been in the past. After all, the vast majority of building societies are quite well conducted by persons who are honourable, honest and upright. Only an infinitesimal number have fallen from grace, and for that reason one ought not to be disturbed about the building societies in this country.
Here again, however, I gather that even though the Registrar may know that certain things are going on which are not proper, to put it no higher, nevertheless his powers are very restricted. I know that to be the case. In 1932 the body to which I referred, the Shareholders' Protection Association, were concerned about a certain building society—at least, it was registered as a building society—which it was quite clear was being conducted on improper lines. It was also quite clear that a large number of members, very poor members, of the public
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had subscribed perhaps £25, £35, £40 or £50, and we wanted a requisition for an inquiry into the activities of this building society. We got the names of the members. We were entitled to have their names, but we could not have their addresses. When the Act was passed the members of the building society all lived in the same town and everybody knew where everybody else lived. We went to the Registrar—we went to Bow Street, as a matter of fact—in order to see whether we could get the addresses of members. We failed, and we used to ask certain of the members, those who wrote to my office, to come at half past six in the evening to sign a requisition. Two or three days afterwards I would learn that the building society had paid them out, so we could never get the 100 names that were necessary to get an inquiry into that building society. I shall not mention any names. Later that same building society came under the consideration of the court.
Clearly that situation ought to be altered. We pressed the Board of Trade to introduce a one-line Bill to add the words "and addresses", but because of the Parliamentary timetable, or because of other considerations, we failed to get them to do it. There ought, it seems to me, my Lords, to be some effective restriction upon the designation. If a concern is to have the benefits of the position as a building society and wants to use the name "building society", it ought to be on terms, and it ought to be on terms prescribed and enforced by the Registrar; and continuing terms. I say "continuing terms" in order that they may not comply with the terms in order to get the name and then depart from them.
There is, then, the question as to whether the building societies should be restricted to lending upon owner-occupied property of a residential character. My own view is that one must recognise the present change and the assistance which a building society can be in advancing money to a person who wishes to buy a small shop, or, indeed, if you like, a large shop. I personally would not preclude building societies from lending money on first mortgages, as they can do now, on approved commercial properties, provided that their advances were limited

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to a relatively modest, if not small, proportion of their total advances and their total assets.
We must realise, too, that to-day flats are being sold for the first time; and the practice is growing. One of the main troubles about Dolphin Square was, I believe, the desire or the intention to sell the flats. Hitherto we have regarded it—I will not say as impossible, but as difficult, to sell flats except in a block. It has been done in France for many years, and it is now being done here; and it seems to me unfair to keep the building societies out of that kind of activity. I think they can advance money on the individual flat, but the whole block is the really useful investment, and it seems to me that it might be useful if they had that power and, indeed, might well be unfair if they had not. After all, building societies have now become a very important channel of savings, and a reasonable spread of commercial investment, provided that it is controlled, regulated and limited, could, I think, be to the benefit of the finances of the building society.
It may well be—I think it would be—the case that new rules would be necessary; and certainly the Registrar should be given further powers and more speedy powers. I do not know whether I am correct in this, but I think there has been no substantial alteration of the rules since the old Liberator days, which were before my time. But, in my submission, we ought not to hamper the directors too much. I should have liked to say something, my Lords, about shares of no par value and the payment of wages by cheque, but I have already detained your Lordships too long on a matter which is of some detail but perhaps of some interest.
6.25 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I should like first of all to congratulate, if I may, very sincerely the noble Lords who moved and seconded the humble Address. I can best do so by saying that they made one of their predecessors of last year—this one—feel very humble.
The few words which I am going to say will be concerned with transport and particularly with road transport. They would probably be better not said or, if said, more appropriately said in the
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debate next week on the Motion which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, has put down. But I have been lucky enough to be selected to attend the Fifth N.A.T.O. Parliamentarians' Conference as a member of the delegation which Lord Crathorne is leading, and next Wednesday, when your Lordships are on the road or off the rails, as the case may be, with Lord Lucas of Chilworth, I shall be flying to Washington on Lord Crathorne's magic carpet. I hope I shall not, therefore, be thought out of order in embarking on this matter of roads.
My Lords, I believe that the industrial efficiency of this country—and by our industrial efficiency we stand or fall—rests very largely on efficient transport. I was therefore particularly glad to note the importance accorded to transport in the gracious Speech. So far as external transport is concerned, I am delighted that the Government have set up a separate and distinct Ministry of Aviation. I personally do not think that the country quite recognises yet the gravity of the problems with which the aircraft industry here is faced, but I feel that under the vigorous leadership of the new Minister of Aviation the aircraft industry will at least get that focus of authority for which it has been asking.
But I confess I was, like the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth—and I was sorry to miss his speech—a little surprised to find no mention of shipping or shipbuilding in the gracious Speech; and I must avow an interest here as being interested, keenly, but in a minor way, with the shipping industry. Both these industries, the shipping industry and the shipbuilding industry, are passing through troubled waters at present and there are plenty of squalls still ahead. For example, we may well be faced with widespread unemployment in the shipbuilding industry quite soon. I am not myself asking for any statement from the Government on this matter this evening, like the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, but I trust that the Government are watching the situation in these industries very closely—and I do not say that as a mere form of words, but I mean really closely and at a high level—and that they will be prepared to consider, with the industries concerned, the very serious problems with which they are faced.

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Finally, before turning to roads, I should like to say how glad I am that the Government are determined to press ahead with the rail modernisation programme. But I do hope that the new Minister of Transport will prod the Transport Commission into paying more attention to amenities and to service. I cannot say that I agree with a great deal of what Professor A. J. P. Taylor says or writes, but I must say that I felt considerable sympathy for an article of his in last Sunday's Express, in which he described our railway stations as mediæval. I remembered his words only too vividly a night or two later as I stood waiting for a train, cold and miserable, on the wet, dirty and platform at Crewe, and recalling as I did so an evening two winters ago when, at the railway station at Palermo in the heart of feudal Sicily—still feudal Sicily—I had been eating a delicious and cheap meal in a warm clean and pleasant restaurant there. With the coming of electrification I feel that something must be done to give a real face-lift to at least some of our major stations.
However, it is with the Government's road programme that I should like to detain your Lordships for a few more minutes. Thank goodness we at last have a Government which is seriously addressing itself to the problems of our roads. I must confess that I was glad to hear the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, say this afternoon that, in his view, the road programme ranked as number-one priority, or as an equal priority with the education programme. I believe that a large debt is in fact owed to the last Minister of Transport for the start which he has given the road programme. Nevertheless, I also believe that we have only scratched the surface of this problem.
I should like at the start of this new Parliament to sketch, but to sketch only briefly, some of the principles which I hope may underlie the Government's approach to this problem in the coming years. First, there is the vexed question of size. Our capital investment in new road construction is, I think, now running at about £50 million a year, and it is going up to £60 million a year. These are large figures, but I am quite certain they are not nearly large enough. I am also quite certain that, whatever we may
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be told by Government spokesmen, these figures will in fact be exceeded before the end of the present Government.
In terms of adequacy, for the type and density of the traffic which our trunk roads carry, I think we still have possibly the worst trunk road system of any industrialised country in the world; and even with our new and expanded programme we are spending less on our trunk roads, proportionately, than any other industrialised country. Given the avalanche of cars which is pouring from our factories, it is quite clear that our road system is going to be swamped. I think the increase of our car population is something like 8 per cent. per annum, but the funny thing about it—and the sad thing—is that the traffic delays which that 8 per cent. increase causes amounts, so the experts say, to 14·2 per cent. How they arrive at these figures I am not quite certain.
There is another factor: the first of our new motorways will be opening very shortly. I have driven along it, and I found it a very congenial experience; and I am sure a lot of other people are going to find it a very congenial experience. As the French say, "L'appetit vient en mangeant"; and I believe the experience of this first new motorway is going to create a strong national appetite for the acceleration of our whole road programme. I also believe that it will be not only good politics but also good economics to satisfy that appetite as much as possible.
My Lords, I am quite certain that we must raise our targets for road construction and improvement, but I am not going to turn myself into a target by suggesting a figure. However, I should like to remind your Lordships that two years ago a very expert and responsible body, the Conference on the Highway Needs of Great Britain, convened under the auspices of the Institution of Civil Engineers, proposed an investment programme of some £3,500 million spread over ten years, which is roughly sevenfold the present programme. Another expert and, I am sure, no less responsible body, the Liberal Party, who are sometimes more noticeable by their absence than by their presence, has proposed that we should double our road programme. Your Lordships can take your choice between these two expert bodies; but of

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one thing I am certain, and that is that on this question of road traffic and the road programme, if we want to stand still we shall have to run, like Mr. Crossman, very fast—faster than we are now.
My second point concerns the longer-term co-ordination of our road programme. In their recent Report on trunk roads the Select Committee criticised the preparation and organisation of the programme. Perhaps their criticism did not take full account of some of the inherent difficulties of a large undertaking of this sort in a democratic society, at least at the start. But one thing struck me very forcibly when I saw the London—Birmingham road this summer. I think a magnificent engineering job has been done there: seventy miles or so of motorway completed from the start, in the engineering sense, in seventeen months; a skilled force of several thousand people recruited, assembled and deployed; £5 million worth of machinery assembled and deployed. But now that skilled force, with all its machinery, is dispersed and broken up, because there is nowhere at present for it to go.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, if the noble Earl will forgive my doubting him, may I ask whether he is making an authoritative statement there?
EARL JELLICOE: The last thing I am making is an authoritative statement.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: Would you give me the source, then?
EARL JELLICOE: The source is my own observation: I can only say it was an unauthoritative observation. My Lords, it seems to me not the most economical way of proceeding. It is rather like every time "Monty" had to fight a battle he had to recruit a new army. I can appreciate some of the difficulties. There are obvious difficulties, some of which Lord Lucas of Chilworth may have in mind, and I think that perhaps I can read some of his mind in that. But I do think that the phasing of the road programme could be improved as it develops. I think that at the start it has probably been extremely difficult to do, but in the future the phasing of the road programme could and should be improved as it develops—and if it is improved economies will result.
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Then, given the size of a co-ordinated national road programme, there is the question of whether our present priorities are right. I should again like to refer to the Select Committee's Report. They have suggested that a higher priority than at present should be given to urban roads. Such work can be terribly high in cost, and is not very dramatic at first sight. It is much less dramatic than the great new rural motorways. However, one mile of decent highway immediately in the heart of one of our great industrial cities may well be worth twenty miles or so of more dramatic rural motorway.
As part of this philosophy—it is over dignifying my approach to say "philosophy"; as part of my approach—I believe the problem of the London traffic should be treated as a separate and unique matter and as a question of national priority. One of the scandals of our London streets seems to have been brought under control: it is now time that we tackled another of them. It is true that traffic congestion in all our industrial cities is a problem, but the problems are greater and the congestion more damaging in London, I think, than anywhere else.
Your Lordships may remember that some time ago Mr. Donald McLachlan forecast in the Daily Telegraph that the time might come quite soon when traffic congestion would literally paralyse London, and his words have been echoed in an authoritative Report by the Committee on London Roads. The present constipation of London roads is bad enough, but, to pursue to the bitter end this horrible medical analogy on which I seem to have embarked, we must really prevent a complete stoppage. I trust, therefore, that the Government will soon let us know what they feel about the recommendations of the Report on London Roads, and that they will recognise this question of London traffic as a matter of real national priority.
I do not for one moment think that this matter of urban congestion is merely a question of building new roads or of improving old ones. I was much impressed by a series of articles by the American traffic engineer, Mr. Burton Marsh, which appeared in the Daily Telegraph in the summer. What impressed me most was his belief that

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we could do a great deal at very little cost to improve the existing capacity of our roads, especially in the towns and cities. There are many ways open to us. Your Lordships may be familiar with the one-way traffic system in Birmingham, which, oddly enough, does not seem to have been applied anywhere else in this country. There are various methods of segregating traffic and of segregating traffic from pedestrians. I am sure that, with ingenuity, we can squeeze far more capacity out of our existing roads.
But ingenuity by itself will not solve the main cause of traffic congestion in our cities—that is, indiscriminate and promiscuous parking. Again the Committee on London Roads have come up clearly with the answer. Their Report states:
"The obstruction of traffic by indiscriminately parked cars should be dealt with by parking meter schemes, strict enforcement of no-waiting regulations and the provision of multi-storey garages to meet the demands of the essentially long-term parker. We are all agreed on this."
In fact what they propose is a multi-pronged attack on the parking programme, with the provision of adequate garage space as a vital prong in that attack. I am sure that this question of the provision of garaging lies at the heart of the problem. It raises the very tricky question of how such garage space, and the construction of it, is to be financed. Again I would urge the Government to give early and earnest consideration to this aspect of the matter.
May I, in conclusion, make two further points? The first concerns research. In their Report on trunk roads the Select Committee have focused attention on the vast importance of research in the planning and the execution of our road programme. The American expert, Mr. Burton Marsh, to whom I referred just now, has commented very favourably from his experience on the work of our Road Research Laboratory. As the road programme expands, the need for research will certainly increase rather than diminish. I am glad to see that that fact is being recognised by the establishment, for example, of the Chair of Traffic Engineering at Birmingham University. I hope that it will continue to be recognised, and that the necessary finance for road research will be forthcoming.
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My final point is this. I believe that we are on the eve of a great upsurge of building, and that much of this will be linked with roads. New roads will be driven across the countryside, and new and improved roads will form an essential part of that rebuilding of the hearts of our industrial cities which is now gathering momentum. Your Lordships will know by now that I believe that a greater concentration of effort on our roads is both inevitable and desirable. I also believe that well-planned roads can do something to enhance the values of the countryside and, indeed, of the city. Ill-planned and badly constructed roads can do much to mar both. I therefore hope that as this great and exciting programme expands everyone concerned with it, be he Minister, planner, architect or engineer, will remember that, although better roads are important, the humanities of our countryside and the essential character of our great cities and towns are even more important.
6.46 p.m.
LORD POLWARTH: My Lords, nobody can complain that your Lordships' House has not well and thoroughly debated the gracious Speech, and my only possible excuse for attempting to add to it is the presence in the gracious Speech of one measure of vital importance to the whole of the United Kingdom, and in particular to Scotland; that is, the Local Employment Bill foreshadowed in it. It may seem strange that there is need for a Bill of this kind at a time when the country is prospering, when industry is booming and the rate of unemployment in the whole kingdom is down below 2 per cent. There are parts of the Kingdom, however, where things are not going so well. The rate of unemployment in Wales is 3½ per cent.; in Scotland, it is 4½ per cent., just twice the United Kingdom average; and in Northern Ireland it is 7 per cent. There are parts in Scotland where the rate is even higher, and I would confine my remarks to Scotland, because that is the country of which I have experience, though I think that much of what I say will be applicable to other parts of the country.
We have the Glasgow area with a rate of 4½. per cent.; Dunbartonshire with 5½ per cent., North Lanark, one of our major industrial areas, with 6½ per cent.,

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and Greenock and Port Glasgow with 7½ per cent. These are not figures to give one complacency. At the same time, over the past decade there has been every year a net emigration from Scotland to other parts of the United Kingdom of something like 11,000 people, let alone those going overseas. The situation of these black spots clearly calls for action, but we must be certain of the root causes. Some of these are known; others are not. As in other diseases of the human body, spots are normally just a symptom of a more serious disease. In this case it is the still excessive dependence of Scottish economy on heavy industry, in spite of what has been done in the last 25 years to bring in lighter industry.
For instance, shipping and shipbuilding, together with the supply industry and all the services supplying them, in turn, are responsible for the employment of something like one-eighth of the whole working population of Scotland. As your Lordships know, at the present time the outlook in shipping and shipbuilding is far from healthy. Unless there is a freer market the outlook for the future is not very good. In Scotland we have less than our fair share in the production of consumer goods, largely due to the longer distances to the markets and consequent heavy freight rates; and consumers goods, of course, are the sector of economy which is enjoying the greatest prosperity at the present time. We are heavily dependent on coal mining, and production of that industry in Scotland is now severely cut. That does not only mean miners out of work: it means less work for the makers of coal-cutting machinery and other suppliers. Finally, we have still not enough in Scotland of the growing industries based on science and technology.
These causes are all well-known, but there are others which are less so, and yet others of which we may not even know. That is why the Scottish Council, of which I have the honour to be Chairman, has resolved to embark on a thorough inquiry into the cause of the growth of industry, its decline and the decisions about its location, because we believe that there is a great deal to be found out in order to get our policy for its future distribution. Yesterday the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, paid me the compliment of
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quoting me in your Lordships' House. I must apologise because I could not be here. The noble Viscount quoted me as saying that a certain member of the Government did not grasp the real principles which were involved in the unemployment problem. Well, my Lords, I do not believe that any Government yet has fully grasped those principles; nor do I believe that the solution is wholly a Government responsibility. It is a job for industry and Government together.
At the same time, I do not want to give the idea that the Scottish economy is decadent. Far from it. I do not want to pay too much heed to those who castigate us for our lack of local effort I think there are plenty of bright spots and signs that we are helping ourselves. More and more Scottish companies are gradually switching to new products to make and new licences to be obtained. Since the war we have attracted to Scotland something like 70 per cent. of all the North American branch factories established in the United Kingdom, and they would not have come there if it were not a good place for them in which to manufacture. Those industries, incidentally, are exporting something like two-thirds of their whole production, which is a great contribution to Britain's export trade. There is a keen determination abroad to sell our goods—something at which we have not been too good in the past—and we have just concluded a Scottish Industries Exhibition, which some of your Lordships may have visited, in which we showed to the world the products of a complete range of our industry, to which we welcomed thousands of overseas buyers and 375,000 members of the public, and for which we shall not have to have recourse to a single penny of funds from our guarantors or any other source. That Exhibition was not the product of a decadent economy.
It is against this background of hope that the Scottish Council is working to try to help wipe out these black spots, these areas of high unemployment. In return, we would ask the Government to do what they can to assist in the matter. For a number of years the Council have pressed the Government to bring more flexibility into the working of the Distribution of Industry Acts, and in the course of the last year we have prepared and submitted to the Secretary of State for Scotland no fewer than three separate

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statements on this problem of employment. If any stimulus is still needed, I have no doubt that it will have been provided by the voting in Scotland in the General Election, particularly in the industrial areas.
I will not go into detail as to the provisions of the new Bill foreshadowed in the gracious Speech, even though it is already in print; there will be time for that on the Second Reading. At first sight, however, it appears to give a welcome broadening of the field where the Government can give help and also of the methods of giving it. It is not on the provisions of the Bill, or on their strict interpretation, that it will stand or fall: it is on the way it is used. It must be used with imagination, with flexibility, with speed and with courage. There must be a readiness to overcome the many difficulties and objections which always arise in dealings between a Government Department and a private company. I say "courage" because I believe that one of the greatest mistakes—I think they would admit it to-day—of the last Government was their panic suspension of the operation of these Distribution of Industry Acts at the time of the credit squeeze. We know from definite information we have that a number of home companies put off expansion plans, and that a number of overseas companies which were considering coming here went elsewhere, all of which might now be providing that much-needed employment. So, above all, when this legislation is introduced, let it be continued and not interrupted in panic when difficult circumstances suddenly arise. There is much more that one could say about this measure, but I think it is better left until the Bill is before us. Suffice it to say that, if the Government will go to it, industry in Scotland will give them all the backing at its command.
6.56 p.m.
LORD GREENHILL: My Lords, having listened to the noble Lord, Lord Polwarth, I can think of nothing in what he has said with which I do not wholly agree, and if I am to contribute to this rather wide-ranging debate, it is only because I am much concerned about unemployment in Scotland and to see whether what I have to say will be taken notice of by the Government. Both
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before and during the Election the Secretary of State for Scotland referred to the intractable problem of unemployment in Scotland, although there was no concrete proposal that I remember his making; and one feels that the time has come when we on this side of the House should emphasise our view about persistent unemployment in Scotland. One knows, as the noble Lord, Lord Polwarth, has said, that there is a Bill already printed to deal with local unemployment. Like the noble Lord, I do not think that this is an opportune time to discuss the details of that particular Bill, and the only comment I would make at this time is this: that the intention is to repeal the whole of the Distribution of Industry Acts, and that alone gives one hope that we can now begin with a clean slate to deal with this problem which is so peculiar to Scotland.
What is now somewhat belatedly being attempted might easily have been tried some years ago, because on the initiative of the Scottish Council for Industry, of which, as your Lordships are aware, the noble Lord, Lord Polwarth is the President, there has been set up the Cairncross Committee, which, after considering evidence largely furnished by official sources, arrived at the conclusions and recommendations which were presented to the Government and which appear to have been merely pigeonholed and forgotten. There are few people in Scotland to-day—I do not want to embarrass the noble Lord—who have done more for industry in Scotland than the noble Lord, Lord Polwarth, or, if one may say so in his absence (although he was here earlier to-day), the noble Lord, Lord Bilsland. Few have done more in attracting industries to Scotland, and particularly, as has been mentioned, North American firms.
Yet, in spite of all the great work that has been done, especially in the industrial estates, we still have in Scotland this problem of unemployment. The fact remains that Scotland still has the largest number of unemployed in any of the regions of the United Kingdom—with the exception, perhaps, of Northern Ireland; and its percentage of unemployment is the highest in the country, again with the exception of Northern Ireland. Even more disturbing, to my mind, is the fact

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that this unenviable distinction has become a chronic condition of industry in Scotland, particularly in the industrial hills, and not merely an occasional acute condition. The figures as at October 12, as the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food tells us, are 86,600-odd unemployed, an increase on the previous month of over 3,000, representing 4 per cent. of the working population.
Figures, however, do not tell the whole story. However meaningful to the statistician and to the administrator they may be, to the individuals affected, unemployment means human misery, human illness, domestic unhappiness, frustration and delinquency: in brief, it means all that social sickness which is so marked a feature of present-day conditions. One has only to recall the surveys made during the slump of the early 'thirties, by, for example, the Carnegie Trust, to realise the depths of demoralisation to which ordinary people can be brought through being unemployed. The economic loss to the country may be very great, but the social loss, through the deterioration of the national morale, may be even greater. Such losses may be difficult to measure quantitatively, but qualitatively they are incalculable.
What analysis is there available of the amount of seasonable unemployment? In what industries does it obtain? At what times, and in what areas? How much is due to "frictional" unemployment, as it is called—the gap in employment between the completion of one contract and the beginning of a new one? What steps are taken to cope with the redundancy due to the exhaustion of our national resources, as in the well-known case of coal? How much disturbance has there been in the pattern of skills necessary in the newer scientific procedures in industrial production?—for example, increasing automation or in the manufacture of man-made basic new materials. To what extent has unemployment been increased by the transfer of ownership of Scottish firms to English companies, who are more concerned to maintain the level of employment where their major premises are than to keep them going in Scotland where the industries originated?
In other words, my Lords, has not the time come for a re-examination of the relationship between the individual
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worker and the society of which he forms part? Can we any longer tolerate human beings being discarded as though they were pieces of obsolete worn-out machinery? And if industry has to provide annual sums for depreciation of its mechanical plant, should there not be a sum similarly set aside to cover depreciation of its human plant? Has the time not come when human values should be judged by man's contribution to the common good, rather than by the profit that can be made out of his labour? Unemployment, as I see it, is as much the loss of one's manhood as it is a deprivation of one's means of livelihood, and it is in that spirit that I ask that the problem of unemployment be attacked. I have been concerned with the problem as seen in Scotland because, as I have said, it has become a social disease of a chronic kind. I would ask the Government to remember that, whatever the results of the General Election may have been in England and Wales, in Scotland the Labour seats outnumber the Tory seats; and with the majority now enjoyed, even a minor measure of devolution, if I dare to advocate it, would have enabled us in Scotland to deal with unemployment in the humane spirit of Labour's tradition.
7.4 p.m.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, at the beginning of a new Parliament is a good time to look both backwards and forwards—back so that we may see where we may consolidate success, and forward so that we may see where we may rectify failures or omissions. With this in view, I should like to look quickly at two changes which have taken place in our society. First, we can record with gratitude and thanks the spreading of prosperity and the achievement of a growing sense of unity throughout the country such as has never been dreamed of before in this island. Secondly, we must take careful note of the great changes which have taken place in our economic and trading position since the turn of the century.
Not long after the General Election I visited a factory in the heart of the cotton district of Lancashire. It was not concerned with the cotton trade, but it was of benefit to some extent in that it was able to afford jobs to those displaced from the cotton trade. I stayed

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the night in a former mill-owner's house. The approach to that house was up cobbled streets, past grim houses, in which many of those who work in the mills of Lancashire live. I was told that in the bad old days the mill-owner used to go from his house to the mill below in his velvet smoking jacket and with his silver-topped cane, to watch those men and women adding to his fortunes in the mill—men and women underpaid, ill-clothed and living in conditions which compared very badly with the comfort of his own house so near their own houses. Those men and women had little to look forward to. They had few opportunities and little leisure or recreation.
Contrast that picture of nineteenth century leisure with the conditions of to-day. Now we have the National Health Service, universal education and opportunities for all, with no limit on what ability can achieve. That is not the work of any one Party; it is the work of the Conservative Party, the Liberal Party and the Labour Party. We can all take pride in that. They have all made a great contribution towards this growing sense of unity to which the Prime Minister has referred on so many occasions. Therefore it is sad, I think, to see so many members of the Party of the noble Lord opposite still apparently encouraging class divisions in our society. I see that they have even introduced a new one between the old and the new working class. It is no duty of mine to offer advice, and I shall be taken to task by the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, if I do—
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, I was not going to interrupt the noble Viscount, but he has been kind enough to mention me. We hear a lot about this growing sense of unity. I am not quite sure which rôle is supposed to be taken by the Opposition. We are not allowed to stir up any divisions. Perhaps the noble Viscount would outline the subservient position we are expected to adopt, although it is not one which we are likely to find congenial or are likely to take.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: I would not expect the noble Lord to do that. We all hope that there will be a lively Opposition. But the Party of the noble
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Lord appears to wish to continue these divisions of society which, happily, are showing every sign of decreasing. That wish I deplore very greatly indeed. If he asks how I get these ideas in my head, I would refer him to several articles written by members of his Party in various papers such as Forward and the like.
As I was saying, it seems to me to be a tragedy that we should try to encourage and maintain such divisions of society, which are happily disappearing. But it is not only the political Parties who suffer from tactics of that sort; it is the country as a whole. During the past 150 years we have passed fairly rapidly from a largely agricultural society to one of the most highly industrialised societies in the world. We have done that by keeping ahead of other countries and by building up an international trade second to none, and so a great national wealth, in spite of our very few raw materials and our tremendous dependence on imported food. In recent years others have caught up with us, and great and growing efforts are going to be needed to keen ahead as we have done in the past. Certainly there is going to be nothing to spare for divisions and sterile disputes; certainly nothing to spare if we are to achieve the rising standard of living for all our people that we all want and also to have something in hand to spare for investment in our Commonwealth and the less fortunate foreign countries. If we are to do that, we have to do a great deal better in the second part of this century than we have in the first. This Government, it seems to me, has a great opportunity to foster that unity of purpose to which I have referred and to which it seems the noble Lord opposite does not attach so much importance as I do.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords, did we have this unity during the period of the 1945 Labour Government, and did the Opposition co-operate in this humble way required?
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: I thought I made that clear, that all Parties including the Party of the noble Lord opposite have contributed to that growing sense of unity. What I was deploring was the present indications that they do not appear to want this sense of unity to grow.
LORD PAKENHAM: I am afraid the noble Lord did not hear what I said, but do not want to keep stopping him, so he had better proceed.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: It seems to me that the programme in the gracious Speech is extremely encouraging in this respect. We have had many references to the new Bill to deal with local unemployment, the promised legislation on building society law and the review of company law, improved regulations for pensions and, most important of all perhaps, the undertaking that we shall continue fully the effort for the clearance of the slums. Those all indicate the determination of the Government to give priority in dealing with genuine causes of unhappiness, jealousy and discontent in the country. To that extent we can enthusiastically support the programme outlined in the gracious Speech.
But there are other less satisfactory features. They make me wonder whether Her Majesty's Government appreciate the tremendously fierce competition which lies ahead of us in the second half of this century. Since the war we have become accustomed to the problems of balance of payments. It is a hard fact that we must export or die, and we must export more and more if our standard of living is to rise. I do not believe it is yet fully appreciated how great this problem is. To export we must be competitive in price, in quality, and in delivery. There are others far more qualified than I to speak on the problem of price. I would only say that in the long run we cannot afford to export below the cost of production. Indeed, there has to be a margin above the cost of production to allow not only for profit but, in many of the industries, for the cost of research and development, too. The extent to which we can trim that margin of course depends very largely on the prosperity or otherwise of the home market. But what we want above all in this country is high quality exports. We want a high ratio between the price we obtain for our exports and the cost of the imported raw materials in them. That is only achievable by doing a lot of skilled manufacturing work, as occurs in watches or high-quality printing, or by putting great technical effort into the product; that is, by exporting a lot of brain power, such as is done in aircraft, computers and automatic systems of all kinds.
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There are two aspects of this problem. First, there is the provision of the necessary trained manpower. Much has already been said about this and much has been done by the late Government. Progress has been made, but it is still not nearly enough. We have only to look at the tremendous achievements of the Russians, the Chinese progress from a purely agricultural community, the German resurgence, and Japanese competition, particularly in the field of electronics, quite apart from the great industrial power of the United States.
We all welcome, I am sure, the appointment of a Minister to be responsible for scientific progress. I wish he were here to-night. It is certainly no disrespect for him or lack of personal regard that makes me say I am sorry that someone has not been appointed to that post who has personal knowledge of science and technology. It is certainly not because he will lack energy and drive—the bells will ring out to science as they have in the past—and certainly not because he will be dealing with problems outside his personal understanding. But if we want to encourage more of our best brains to go in for science and technology, Her Majesty's Government have to lead the way. They must show that scientists and technologists are the men at the top and not just the men on tap. Her Majesty's Government must set an example.
I should like to see in the Departments of State the administrative head balanced by a man of equal responsibility and authority on the scientific side, just as is done in the Ministry of Defence. Many mistakes have been made by Her Majesty's Government in the period since the war by not taking technical advice. Sometimes it is right to ignore such advice, but if you are going to ignore it, it is much better that the person who has the authority to ignore it should understand precisely what he is ignoring. I believe, therefore, that the problem of scientific manpower is still paramount and will become increasingly so during the next decade.
But men, however good, cannot work without financial resources behind them. Much of our present research and development effort is devoted to defence and is paid for out of the defence budget. Even so, it is barely enough to keep pace with our competitors. If defence

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expenditure is reduced in the future, then as things are at the moment a great deal of effort will be removed from research and development, and that can only be bad—bad for the country and for industry.
Throughout the engineering industry now the tendency is for profit margins to fall, so there is less money available for research and development. That situation has been accentuated by the operation of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act. We all agree that competition is good, price cutting is good, providing it does not reduce margins below those necessary to carry essential research and development. If it does that, then the competitive position of this country can only be harmed. So I was disappointed not to see in the gracious Speech some proposals for encouraging research and development in industry or for any review of the working of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, and I very much hope that the Government will reconsider those points. There is a great future for Britain, but the way ahead will get no smoother in the years ahead. We cannot afford disunity or waste of resources, and we need trained manpower and the money to back it as never before. I would urge Her Majesty's Government, with all the power at my command, to make sure that those are available in ample measure in the years to come.
7.20 p.m.
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, at this late hour I am full of trepidation for daring to submit a rather humdrum domestic matter, which has to do with water, but I understand that that is in order. I have been making efforts for seven years to try to get a remedy and I beg leave to occupy I hope only a few minutes of your attention. The gracious Speech mentions measures to modernise the law about gambling. Then comes a sentence near the end saying that other measures are to be introduced. May I presume that a revised Water Act is intended under "other measures", for it would seem overdue and of equal importance to the laws regulating gambling?
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May I submit that we have not yet got an integrated national water plan, and that with many new processes and increasing prosperity it is not a policy that can be put off year after year—especially as the expert Advisory Committee which produced the Report on the Growing Demand for Water would hazard no assumptions beyond the year 1965, except that until then—and 1965 is only five years away—matters were on a fully satisfactory footing as regards quantity of water available.
If we take the question of water as one whole, the disposal of the rain run-off falls into two parts—the storage and distribution by waterworks, and the management of all water problems that occur within a catchment or river basin. To improve the action of the waterworks and boards, the Minister of Housing continues to urge the further amalgamation of undertakings and their districts, but there is still a legion of 1,000 separate businesses. The Ministry has ordered fresh surveys beyond those already undertaken between 1945 and 1958. But surely water source areas should be earmarked for later applicants who may be in an at present undeveloped industrial area, and thereby the purchase of such sources, of which few really remain, by private interests forbidden. Again, surely it is understood that an unlimited number of reservoirs in the higher ground cannot be built if the number that can be kept filled is exceeded. There is a limit there. Thus, there is left to us, perhaps, chances of emulating the Dutch, in inserting barriers with lock-gates on the navigable estuaries by which to exclude sea-water, and to shorten various coastal road communications. Such fresh-water reservoirs can make use of water that has already been cleaned on its way down the rivers and in passing through cities. It can once more be used for industrial factories erected on the banks.
The Housing Minister possesses under his own hand an Advisory Committee who last February issued the valuable Reports on Water Resources and on the Growing Demand for Water. Then also, though it has not yet been fully debated, we have had the Bowes Report on Inland Waterways, which has resulted in the appointment by the Ministry of Transport of a Redevelopment of Canals Committee to promote and receive applications for schemes. So that we have to our

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hand several Reports embracing this indivisible subject of water. An ideal continually praised is the administration of catchment problems by joint committees. This proposal has validity, because thereby all aspects of storage and distribution could be discussed by local people who are in public life on the spot.
The Minister has also ordered, in response to Recommendation 58 in the Report on the Growing Demand for Water, fresh surveys to be made for the Great Ouse Catchment. In this connection—that insufficient information is available—I should have thought he would have selected four areas where, by 1965, according to Table 6 of Appendix II of the Report on the Growing Demand for Water, there will be low margins between surplus supply and demand. Those areas include East Anglia, Sussex, Somerset and Lancashire. The year 1965 is only five years off, but this date is as far ahead as the Report cares or dares to go. With regard to these low-margin areas, I would suggest that those river boards concerned on the East Coast should at once be empowered to proceed with collecting data and gauging, and should be assisted thereto by full grants, since noble Lords may be aware that in low rateable counties the 4d. precept leviable from the local authorities does not carry the yearly programme far enough in maintenance and improvement works.
What I hope to get from Her Majesty's Government is an assurance that they will consider legislation that will remedy the difficulties which are being experienced where the Common Law overrides later statutory functions prescribed by Act of Parliament in two directions: riparian law and the ancient right of the navigation of rivers. The attitude of a navigation authority is quite justly expressed as follows: "We came far earlier on the scene than drainage authorities. Beds and channels are our statutory concern. Our business is to improve navigation." Then there have been moments in river administration when functions enjoined by Statute are found to be in direct opposition as between one or more of the authorities responsible. Yet in Chapter 10 of the Bowes Report, at paragraph 265, is this note:
"We do not advocate merging of navigation and drainage responsibilities … in the case of the Broads."
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Well, that standpoint remains to be argued.
To validate my contention I submit three instances. The first concerns the Severn river. Here we have accounts of ships, by their speed and wash, eroding the banks; but from Sharpness Docks northwards to Stourport and Worcester we have a navigation authority who, I presume, have to make up the banks of the canal. Secondly, we have the navigation from Yarmouth Haven to Norwich, with two authorities entitled to deepen the channel, but neither concerned with the well-being of the banks or the erosion damage by ships, and speeding hundreds of powercraft. As a last instance in support of my contention that it is unreasonable to divide authority over any one river between two Statute-obeying authorities, we have last year's dispute between the Ministry of Transport and Witham River Board about the upkeep of the banks below the City of Lincoln. These instances surely point out that a better set-up by round-table methods could be devised to promote economy and harmony, to safeguard the outlay of public grant monies, and confer a better realisation of the community of interest between all who use a river.
My Lords, for seven years past I have been trying to put this idea across to the three Ministries concerned, but as it touches their departmental autonomy the answer I always receive is: "Go back and get local agreements, and then let both sides jointly put up a Bill under the Private Bill Procedure Act." As it concerns many rivers where this difficulty occurs I have felt bound to ask Her Majesty's Government to consider this matter, with a view to setting up joint committees to manage all catchment and river basin affairs. Thank you, my Lords, for your patience.
7.30 p.m.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I am going to ask your Lordships to turn your attention away from the great matters we have just been discussing and consider a small point which is perhaps somewhat technical; but there are two words in the royal and gracious Message which caused me some concern, and my experience has shown me that it is much better to take such matters up at an early stage, before the Government have drafted a Bill, because once

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a Bill is drafted it is very difficult, especially in your Lordships' House, to obtain any material modification. The two words concerned come in the first and second lines of page 4 of the royal and gracious Message, where we are told:
"Measures will be introduced to modernise the law in Scotland relating to.. succession."
I look upon "modernise" as rather a threatening word and, to put it bluntly, I suppose it means that the Government intend to implement the recommendations of the Mackintosh Report. When that Report was first published all its supporters went about rubbing their hands and saying, "That is exactly what we want. It is going to do away with those fellows who hang on in the old stable. It will do away with all that." Then learned counsel wrote a paper on the subject for the W.S. Society, and, if my information is correct, this Society became divided on the matter. Other people of less importance wrote upon the subject, and I understood—and this is only what I understood at the time—that the Lord President had modified his view of the Mackintosh Report. I knew both brothers but I never had an opportunity of asking if that was true.
I go about Scotland a good deal. For example, during the Recess I have been from Lerwick to Dunbar from Girran to Fraserburgh, from Wick to Stornoway and to many other places and have seen every sort of person in every walk of life; and I am bound to say that I do not think there is any general desire in Scotland for any modification of the Common Law. But I am bound to tell your Lordships that there is a very strong demand from the Law Society in Scotland for modification of the law of succession, and for this reason: they say that in the burghs, when there is an intestacy the heir is very often no close relation to the family, and the domestic home being "heritage" he comes into the domestic home and takes possession of it as against the widow. I shall come back to that point in a moment with a suggestion for Her Majesty's Government.
For the moment I want to turn to this question of the people who hang on in the old stable. Scotland is a very poor
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country. Its population, I believe, is about one-half that of Greater London and I suppose its resources in one way and another are not one-tenth of those enjoyed and disposed of in Greater London. But it has certain advantages to the Empire, and among them are the people who hang on in the old stables. Going back to Festival of Britain year, for which noble Lords opposite were greatly responsible, I should like to mention that the Monroes are not a very numerous family in the world—not nearly as numerous as the MacDonalds; but in that year 400 Monroes arrived in Inverness and paid a visit to their Chief at Foulis. He, thinking some of them might have gone astray to the rendevous in Edinburgh, went down there and met 150 more. Only the other day a Fraser couple from California came to my old stable and I was able to entertain them. I hope and sincerely believe that in California now we have a couple of friends for Britain—and I should like to point out that California is a place where we have not too many friends and where friends are welcome.
The matter goes a great deal deeper than that. Your Lordships will remember that at the beginning of the last war the British Government were faced with great difficulty in the United States of America because the whole of the Middle West had quite determined politically that they would not allow their country to be drawn into war alongside Britain; and it took us a long time to wear down that determined opposition. But during that time the Scottish Red Cross received thousands of dollars from the Caledonian Societies of the Middle West, and anyone who goes to the headquarters of the Red Cross in London will probably be able to see the letters sent to reprimand the Scottish recipients of that money because it had not come through London. I will allow your Lordships to consider how much of it would have come through London.
The point I am making here is that it was a great advantage to us that the people in the Middle West had that feeling for a portion of the British Empire at that time, when they themselves were so determined to stand out, and I believe that any Government which impairs what I call the transcendental value of Scotland to the Empire does

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great damage which will be slow in showing itself but will be very serious in years to come. When we have this evil—and I do not know upon how many instances this evil is based, because sometimes a small number of cases make a great noise in the world—I submit humbly to Her Majesty's Government that the matter could be cured in a much simpler way.
It seems to me that if we passed a Bill making what is called in Scotland the dominium utile moveable, instead of the heritage, we should cure the trouble where it lies in the burghs and would not interfere unnecessarily with the old Common Law of Scotland. I put that forward humbly. I believe that something on those lines ought to be considered rather than that we should seek some sweeping measure which is going to alter everything in Scotland anyway. There is only one point I should like to add: that, whatever Bill is introduced on this subject, Her Majesty's Government will have to consider very carefully the situation that arises in cases of divorce. I need hardly press that point on the Government, for they will be aware of it without my help. I am sorry to have detained your Lordships even for a few minutes on this subject, but it is a very important matter in Scotland and I hope it will be considered before a Bill is drawn.
7.39 p.m.
LORD PAKENHAM: My Lords the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, and the noble Earl, Lord Albemarle, must forgive me if I do not follow them along the line of their interesting speeches. The speeches of the noble Lords, Lord Saltoun, and Lord Greenhill, with that of the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor to follow, remind us that the Scots have long been engaged in a takeover hid for this country, and certainly in the later stages of this debate it seems to be in process of coming off. I know that the. House wishes to hear the noble and learned Viscount as soon as possible, but perhaps your Lordships will forgive me, if I offer a few remarks by way of conclusion from this side.
We have had, as always on these occasions, a very thought-provoking debate initiated by the noble Lords, Lord Hastings and Lord Aberdare, in
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especially good speeches. I can say that, although unfortunately I was not present, for I have read them and heard the comments. The noble Lord, Lord Hastings, has already received so much applause, and been quoted so aptly by the noble Earl who leads the House, that perhaps he will not mind my singling out the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for the special reason that the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and I are interested in so many similar questions. Moreover, he is one of the younger Peers, so I look to him with special interest as perhaps one who is eventually going to take the place of the noble Viscount, Lord Temple-wood, on the Benches of noble Lords opposite. But I appreciate the special brilliance of the speech of Lord Hastings.
We have had from this side, I hope it will be agreed, very authoritative speeches, beginning with that of my noble friend Lord Alexander of Hillsborough yesterday, and continued to-day by my noble friends Lord Lucas of Chilworth, Lord Latham and Lord Greenhill. We are all on this side very proud of the maiden effort of my noble friend Lord Citrine, who seems to have learnt a great deal, both from his experience as a trade union leader and from his post of silent observation in this House. He has consoled us—I say this without irony—for the loss of my close friend Lord Ogmore, to whom I know we wish all well in his new location. I think he will learn perhaps certain things, and one of them will be the appallingly reactionary attitude which the Liberal Party occasionally adopt on colonial questions. The next time they sit up till the middle of the night to support the Government on an episode such as Hola I shall expect the return of the noble Lord to our Benches within the hour, even if it is two o'clock in the morning. But we wish him, quite seriously, all that is good in his activities.
I take the opportunity of congratulating two noble Lords opposite, one an old friend of this House, Lord Carrington, who steps into a position—I will not say made glorious by past occupants, because that might be misunderstood, but at any rate immensely enjoyed by all who previously held the position, because I think it is always a great source of honourable pride to anyone to hold it, and we feel that the noble

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Lord is going to do especially well there. I am also glad to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord St. Oswald, in spite of his hard hitting and sometimes unconventional approach on things in an age sometimes supposed to be of "Yes-men". How long he will stay where he is only the future can show, but I hope that he will go from strength to strength, and will not lose any of his individuality in the course of a successful career. In congratulating him I would express the hope that a wide measure of freedom will be given to him so that he may exercise his individual talents.
This is not a time to hold an Election inquest. I suppose it was, as Elections go, a quiet and friendly Election. The Times described it as a poor campaign, but I do not think that editors or leader writers were taking any part in it, and of those who practise the public arts I have often felt that eminent journalists take the jaundiced view which we take of those who sit at their desks and describe our activities. I do not think it was a particularly poor campaign. I think that both sides did their best, and it was better than most campaigns in the past and better than most in other countries. It never became lively. That may have been due to die injunction given at the beginning by the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham (I am sorry not to see him here to-night; I hope he is not ill—I gather he is not ill), whom we congratulate wholeheartedly on his appointment as Minister for science.
The noble Viscount forbade us at the beginning in wide and general terms to indulge in any "mud-slinging." Those who know the vehement temperament of the noble Viscount felt that this was an instruction to which he would find it as hard to adhere as any of the rest of us. At the same time he did distinguish: he said that invective would be in order, but not "mud-slinging." We all know the difference there. It is invective when you hit the other fellow, and "mud-slinging" when he comes back at you. I know that the noble Viscount and all the rest of us aimed always to hit above the belt. Sometimes, of course, there is a slight difference of opinion as to where one's opponent's belt lies, though one can be certain it is something one is sensitive
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about when a blow is delivered on one's own anatomy, and one's own belt is always a few inches higher than the other fellow's. But I do wish him every possible success. I am bound to say that as a rather unrepentant—I do not know what; I was going to say humanist, but that might be mistaken now that humanism has been claimed by the rationalists; but as an unrepentant semi-illiterate I wish all success to the noble Viscount, a fine scholar. I am not at all sorry to think he does not know all about science; it will give him something fresh to learn.
Of course, a certain amount of interest was injected into the Election by the intervention of the noble and gallant Viscount, Lora Montgomery of Alamein. The noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, had said that anyone who voted Socialist needed his head examined. The noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, went further and said that we all ought to be in a "looney-bin", or words to that effect. He was suitably rebuked by the Minister of Health, who said that that was hardly fair to the "loonies". I think that this House did remarkable work under the leadership of the Lord Chancellor on the Mental Health Bill, during which the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, was noticeably absent from the debates. He might have given some constructive suggestions, but was no doubt detained by other duties unspecified. But at any rate we were sorry to miss him. Here I risk the ire of the noble Viscount, and that would be sad for me because I have a very great respect for him, as we all must have for his services to the nation, and I have a personal gratitude for his kindness to me when he was the Chief of the Imperial General Staff and I was a very timid Under-Secretary of State for War.
However, I cannot help telling the House, since we are on the subject of the noble and gallant Viscount and the examining of heads, of a story that occurred on a semi-private occasion. I was standing with the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, when Sir Winston Churchill joined us. It was a very important affair, as your Lordships can understand, and the noble and gallant Viscount, Lord Montgomery of Alamein, pointed to my head.

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Although there is not, as your Lordships can see, very much, if anything, on top, there is a certain amount around the ears. The noble Viscount said to Sir Winston Churchill, "Do you not think his hair needs cutting, Prime Minister?" To which Sir Winston Churchill replied—and this is rather appropriate— "Your head, my dear Field Marshal, requires to be compressed under a military cap. He needs his for speaking in the House of Lords." I thought the House would like to be told that. I would go down on my knees and beg forgiveness of the noble and gallant Viscount, as all would who observed him acting so gallantly in peace and war.
I must turn to more serious matters. I will not spend any time on major questions of economic policy. I think that those who wish to know our attitude to the economic record of the last Government, if they have not already heard the speeches of my noble Leader, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, and of my noble friend Lord Lucas of Chilworth, should read them in Hansard and also what was said so fully and effectively elsewhere by the right honourable gentleman Mr. Harold Wilson. I would, if I may, say one or two words on special subjects touched on in the gracious Speech from the Throne. It says:
"A Bill will be laid before you for improving the arrangements for licensing air services and airline operators and to ensure the maintenance of high standards of safety."
As with so many of these proposals, one cannot object to them. One cannot even appraise them very much. It all depends on what they prove to be in practice. But do hope and pray that the new Minister, about whom I shall say a word in a moment, will not begin to tamper with the Air Corporations and, above all, will recognise the very great importance of striking a good working relationship with the trade unions. I think I can say that unprovocatively to the Minister. Great work has been done there. It has nothing to do with Parties; because, after all, a Party different from ours has been in office for eight years now, and the great work has continued for the Air Corporations. But a lot of that work could be dissipated overnight by some rash move governed—as I hope it will not be on this occasion—by some political prejudice.
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I congratulate the Government on deciding to appoint a Minister of Aviation. I know that my old friend and colleague in another place, Mr. Frank Beswick, was one who was active in suggesting that some time ago. I should not like to say who was the first person to suggest a Minister of Aviation. I rather think I have pressed it on the House—but that is of no importance one way or the other. Certainly the Government are to be congratulated for appointing a Minister of Aviation; and, by and large, I would feel that Mr. Duncan Sandys is a very good choice, so long as he does not try to settle it by cutting the Gordian knot in the way he was tempted to do when confronted by the problem of the Oxford Road. I rather think he was rescued from that by change of office; but, in spite of that, I think he will be remembered as a very promising Minister who almost ruined his career by trying to drive a road through the Christ Church Meadows. I think that the noble Earl, Lord Home, himself an old scholar of that College, will sympathise a little, compatible with his responsibility to his colleagues, with what I have said there. I hope we shall not have any of that business in this case. But I do feel that the aircraft industry needs a brave man, a tough man, and a very hard-working man. Everybody believes it has to be rationalised; and I look with a great deal of confidence to the aircraft industry and to Mr. Duncan Sandys as the man who will bring about the kind of result that all the best people in aviation desire.
I do not want to keep the House much longer, but I must say one word about the passage in the gracious Speech referring to the Youth Services. It reads:
"With the aid of more trained youth-leaders, with an improved Youth Service and by other means young people will be enabled to put their leisure to better use."
That is, of course, a very unexceptionable sentiment; and we know—and the noble Earl, Lord Albemarle, has the best of all reasons for knowing—that this important committee under the distinguished wife of the noble Earl must now be near the end of its labours. I think we all in this House—and this can be said quite irrespective of Party—should like to feel that the major debate we had here last February on the Youth

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Services was the most important debate on Youth Services that has ever been held in either House of Parliament. I think we can say that it was the only debate on the subject that has ever been held in this House and I am not aware that the House of Commons has ever debated the Youth Services in any form or manner. This House will therefore view these proposals with special keenness of scrutiny.
I do not want to stir up any feelings now, least of all by simply quoting what I myself said last February, but I cannot help reminding the House of one quotation which has now become a bit of a classic from the evidence given to the Select Committee—not the Albemarle Committee but the Select Committee—in 1957 on behalf of the Ministry of Education. The official evidence given by the Ministry of Education in 1957 included this statement:
"It is certainly true that among the many services which might be further expanded and developed … the Youth Service is one which it has been definite policy for some time now not to advance."
The noble Earl, Lord Home, will forgive me if I had that in mind when I was listening to him yesterday. All that he said about the needs of our youth was true, but I feel that the Government which has been in power for the last eight years has shirked that responsibility in the most signal fashion. However, to-morrow is also another day, and I am glad that there has been an act of repentance in that connection. I congratulate the Government in promising all these proposals. We shall study them all with the greatest interest, and I hope that they will live up to the expectations that they are beginning to arouse.
What I have said with regard to the Youth Services is, in my opinion, indisputable. I do not know who is to be blamed, particularly: we cannot pin it on any individual. But although there has been a disgraceful failure in regard to Youth Services, one cannot say that as regards penal reform, though the results have been very disappointing. I know that the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor realises that I look to him as one who is always earnest where any moral issue is concerned. I think he knows, also, as does the Home Secretary, that I and all of us concerned with
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prisons and aftercare look on the present Home Secretary as one dedicated in his heart to improving our penal and aftercare arrangements. I know, therefore, that he will not think I am passing any sort of personal criticism on either himself or the present Home Secretary, Mr. Butler. But we are bound to face the fact—and we faced it last February in a debate in this House—that we have had to run very fast, as I think one noble Lord said earlier in another context, to remain in the same place—and perhaps are a little further back.
Let me be quite candid. I think that if anybody went to prison now he would probably have a more educative time, a time which was better for him, than if he had gone some years ago. I do not think, therefore, that the physical facts tell the whole story. But the physical facts—the facts about overcrowding, under-staffing, and absence of work—are very disturbing, and unless there has been some miraculous change unknown to me in the last few weeks or few months, the position is still appallingly bad. I will mention one fact. The noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor will recall it, and I know that he regrets it more than anybody. When Mr. Butler became Home Secretary—pledged, as we know, most genuinely to seeing what could be done for prisoners and ex-prisoners—there were about 2,000 people sleeping three in a cell. Last April there were 6,000 sleeping three in a cell. That was a physical fact, and the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor and I have had many discussions on this.
I am not saying that the position is three times worse in all respects. Many problems of importance have been met. The position is a direct result of the crime wave and the fact that there are many more people in prison. I say that only because I think it is so easy to say, "Further advances will be made in penal reform". It is a very arguable matter whether, on balance, any advance has been made in the last few years. On the face of it we have gone back. Considering that there have been small but enlightened changes in the administration, one might say there has been a little progress; but when one is looking to the future one must start with the stark physical facts, and they, on the face of them, suggest that the conditions in

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prison now are a good deal worse than they were when Mr. Butler became Home Secretary. I do not want to dwell further on those topics now. The House will not be surprised to hear that we all, including myself, hope to return to them at an early date.
I was tremendously interested, as we all were, in what was said by Lord Lucas of Chilworth and by Lord Latham to-day in regard to improving the business life of this country while at the same time refusing to denigrate business life. This is think, a difficult issue. One says one thing and balances it with another, and perhaps only one of those two points is picked out and published. It is very hard to strike a balance. If I may say something a hit crude—the hour is late, and the time for crudeness has therefore arrived—I would say that the Party of the noble Lords opposite seeks to promote the economic welfare of the country by encouraging those engaged in economic activities to pursue their self-interest directly. They hope, subject to various qualifications, that in that way there will be the maximum economic interest achieved. We have more of a bias, if you like, in favour of aiming at the public interest directly as an alternative means of achieving the maximum economic benefit for all.
Now there cannot be any absolute clash. Whatever we say and do, there is going to be, as the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, said so well to-day—and I hope he is going to speak often—a mixed economy in this country during the lifetime of any of us on these Front Benches. There are one or two very young men on the Front Benches, but there is going to be a mixed economy in the lifetime of all of us in this House. Therefore one cannot possibly say that we stand for public interest and the others stand for self interest. That is putting it too crudely. But I do feel that there is that difference of emphasis. I am not now talking morals; I am simply talking of methods of achieving an economic purpose. I agree with what Lord Lucas of Chilworth said—and I agree with it all the more because he agreed with something that I said: that in this mixed economy we in the Labour Party must not be afraid to encourage those who are in fact engaged in private business. We may
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take a sterner view about the taxation they should bear; but that is another question. We must not be afraid of encouraging them.
I also hope that noble Lords opposite will agree that the unvarnished, uncontrolled operation of the acquisitive instinct can be a very unedifying thing. I do not want to say any more than that. I am sure that in that spirit they are looking at certain features of our business life which recently have been very much in evidence and which did not give any pleasure to patriotic people, to whatever Party they belong. I need not say any more except that, so far as I am concerned, I believe in what was so admirably summed up in two words—or, if you like, two and a half words—by my noble Leader yesterday, the Co-operative Commonwealth. Whatever he exactly means, I am prepared to bow to him, not just because of his great personal merits, but because that seems to me to be the banner under which we may all serve fruitfully and helpfully.
I feel that what has been said about underlying unity, while presented in a way that made me make some rather irritating interventions, has a certain force. I do not think that noble Lords opposite must expect us to refrain from what they call "creating division." I think they would find life very dull if we followed that instruction out too faithfully and I assure them that we have no intention of doing so.
If I may not be suspected of impertinence, may I say that I think that the present Prime Minister gained a new place in the esteem of all Englishmen when he paid that visit to Moscow last Spring. Apparently in the teeth of much criticism from his Allies, and without any particularly warm reception at the other end, he stuck to his job: and I think he always will be remembered for that. But we on our side are very proud of our own leader, Mr. Gaitskell. I think that he also gained new stature in the eyes of everyone during the Election and in the hour of defeat—which, after all, shows the real inwardness of a man more than anything else. So far as we are concerned on this side of the House, we have very fine and reputable opponents, led by the noble Earl. As I said earlier, we are proud of our

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own leaders and we are looking forward to serving under my noble friends, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough and Lord Silkin, for many days to come.
8.3 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I think that this debate will be memorable for two things: first of all, for the excellence of the speeches which introduced it. If I may pick out two characteristics, I think that the tone and feeling with which my noble friend Lord Hastings invested the African problem in the closing part of his speech was something which appealed to the whole House; and the feeling and general desire to help his own country of Wales, and employment generally, which animated my noble friend Lord Aberdare was again something which caught all our friendship and affection. The other remarkable note of this debate was the maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Citrine. It will be remembered long among maiden speeches in your Lordships' House. I hope that the many calls which the noble Lord has in his position will not prevent him from coming back and addressing us again.
The noble Lord raised a problem which is one of the greatest difficulty, the old difficulty, which we have all felt, irrespective of Party, about the application of a wages policy and the excellence of our system of collective bargaining, which I believe in and which I think we all believe in. The noble Lord also referred to the difficult point: when we have increases in wages, how far we are to consider the national productivity as a governing factor, and how far the position of a special company may set the pattern of a new round of wage claims. The noble Lord asked a Government spokesman to pronounce on that. I think that your Lordships will forgive me for not putting forward a reasoned explanation and solution of that problem at six minutes to eight o'clock, at the end of this debate, but I assure the House and the noble Lord that it is one thing that is very much in our minds and which we shall give the consideration it deserves. What I
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intend to do, if your Lordships approve, is to deal shortly with the speeches that have been made to-day and then a little less briefly with two important points that were raised yesterday—and consign to the limbo of lost speeches the peroration which I thought out in the early hours of this morning to delight your Lordships.
If I may begin with the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, I should like to endorse the tribute he paid to the motor industry and what it has done. As I think I told him, I had the honour of being the guest at the Coventry Chamber of Trade, and I tried there to convey the real debt that their fellow-citizens owe to the motor industry for what it has done. With regard to shipping and shipbuilding, I have made inquiries, and from my information the position would seem to be not so sombre as that depicted by the noble Lord. I am told that the volume of merchant shipping under construction or on order for British owners in British yards is about 3·2 million gross tons, and the volume for British owners in yards abroad is about 1 million gross tons. I think that that is a little better position than that which the noble Lord had in mind, though I am not saying for a moment that it is a position which we can tolerate with complacency.
Of course, one has to take first of all the basis of the matter. Shipping depends on trade, and overseas trade is one of the fundamentals on which we base the hopes of our policy. As the noble Lord and another noble Lord suggested, there are various problems which we shall be pleased to consider with the industry—I need not enumerate them to-day. But I would remind the noble Lord that we did put in our Party manifesto that we were prepared to support the building of the new "Queens". Naturally, he will not expect me to go into the details, because he will realise that there are various methods by which that can be done, and it would not be right to elaborate them at this stage.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords I do not think that the noble and learned Viscount is comparing like with like. My figure includes passenger ships and tankers. I do not think that he has done so. But I will check my figures.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The note I have says that "merchant shipping" includes all classes except warships, but I have had to get this through a message, and the last thing I would be is dogmatic about it. If I find the figure should be modified. I will let the noble Lord know
The noble Lord mentioned the Committee on the Companies Acts and the question of the building societies, and that matter was developed in a most interesting and helpful speech by the noble Lord, Lord Latham. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, asked, if we are going to have the equivalent of a Greene Committee or a Cohen Committee, how long it is going to take; and Lord Latham suggested that we might, instead of having a general review, consider a number of questions. I think Lord Latham would agree with me that the questions he raised were of such difficulty that their study would take a good time in themselves, though not, of course, as long as the general review. His idea is a new one to me, and I should like to discuss it with my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade. In any case, I am grateful to the noble Lord for going into these points, which all seem to me most worthy of attention.
I was glad that the noble Lord, Lord Latham, said what he did about the building societies, because I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, will appreciate that they are in a different position. On that matter there is no question of waiting for a Committee. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Latham, noticed, but I did say during the course of the Election (it was I think reported at the time, and I should like to say it again) that the vast majority of building societies are managed with skill and prudence, and the Building Societies' Association, whose constituent members own over 80 per cent. of the assets of three building societies, sets high standards of conduct for its member societies. I feel that that should be said again, because the last thing any person of good will would want is that faith in building societies in general should be shaken.
The point that has arisen is that there has been criticism from the Association, as well as from the Registrar, of certain
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societies that have made big loans to individuals. It was that criticism which made us look into the matter, and it was for that reason that my colleague, Mr. Erroll in April of this year, said that the Government would give the matter consideration. But we have gone far beyond that. My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced, I think on the same day as I said what I have just repeated to your Lordships, that progress had been made with the preparation of the legislation; and that has been going on. So that I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, need worry about the delay so far as that matter is concerned; and the other point, as I say, I should like to consider and discuss with my colleagues.
I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, was going to pay me an unreserved compliment—he got very near to it. He paid me a compliment over, I think, something like 22 sections of an Act of Parliament out of 25, and I am grateful to him for that. It is most interesting, after the work we put in in this House to improving the Restrictive Practices Bill, to see a piece of legislation that has been successful and has done exactly what we hoped it would do; and I am grateful for the generous words with which the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, recognised the effect of that part of the Bill. With regard to what he described three years ago as the "Achilles' heel" of the Bill, I heard that he still takes that view and I shall consider it again. I hope that these were the main points of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas of Chilworth, which I am sure we all enjoyed.
I had full permission from the noble Viscount, Lord Esher, before he departed to say anything unpleasant I liked about his speech. It would be quite impossible, of course, to be unpleasant about any speech of the noble Viscount, because we all enjoy his speeches so much. I did feel inclined, however, to say that he rather harped on the fact that the gracious Speech was very pedestrian. I think I might say, without being really unpleasant but merely offensive, that his speech was rather like a balloon, as opposed to a pedestrian, and that we were not unconscious of what kept the balloon up. I have tried to pay my tribute not

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only to the delivery of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Citrine, but to what I think were the essential points, and of course that speech is, with his experience, a most important pronouncement on wages which not only my right honourable friend the Minister of Labour but the whole Government will consider.
My noble friend Lord Mancroft took quite a different view of the duties of Royal Commissions and Committees from that taken, I think, by the grandfather of the present Lord Salisbury, who said simply that they are the most useful way of shelving a difficult question. My noble friend Lord Mancroft has now said that not only Committees but Governments should face up to difficult questions right away. Well, we are facing up to one of them in introducing the betting and gaming legislation, and we shall not forget what the noble Lord has said. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, that it was important that Lord Mancroft should bring us back quite sharply to the mixed economy with which we both have to deal. I think that is perhaps a method of finding some of the unity about which the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, was doubtful: to recognise that that is what we have to deal with, whatever our preference would be. I am glad that my noble friend Lord Mancroft eliminated the idea of denationalisation, because it is important that there should not be trouble that way, especially at the moment. I think the House would prefer that I should not deal to-day with the point on roads raised by the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe. He made his speech to-day for a very good reason, and I am sure the whole House hopes that he will have an enjoyable and profitable trip on his N.A.T.O. tour.
I want to say a word or two on the interesting speech of my noble friend Lord Polwarth, which, if I may put it that way, was seconded by the most moving speech of the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill. After all, nobody has more reason to care than I have about the position of unemployment in my native land, and nobody is more conscious of the difficulty of the middle industrial belt, dependent as it is on two basic heavy industries. I want just to say one or two things, because I do not want
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people to think that we have not been conscious of the point. Between 1952 and 1957, over 22 million square feet of new factory buildings were completed in Scotland. That was an increase of some 36 per cent. over the amount completed in the six years before, and 1957 and 1958 were record years. What is even more remarkable, I feel, is that in Government-financed factories alone, between 1951 and 1957 Scotland had about 40 per cent. of the Government-financed building in Britain as a whole, and since then, in recent years, the figure has been as high as 75 per cent., which is again an advance on the preceding period.
The other point I want the noble Lord to have in mind is that much of the nuclear energy programme is centred in Scotland, and my countrymen will have in mind Dounreay, Chapel Ross and Hunterston. I think we can say that we recognise the position, and certainly with regard to Government-financed factories Scotland got a full share—well beyond the Goschen formula which they have to put up with in other spheres.
LORD GREENHILL: May I interrupt to say this? While the noble and learned Viscount's generous reference is quite true, there remains the disquieting fact that the amount of unemployment in Scotland is still so high.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I entirely agree, and I was saying that only because I feel that, in fairness to my colleagues, especially those who were at the Scottish Office, I ought to show that they had not only fought their corner, but secured proportionately to the rest of the United Kingdom a good share. But, of course, that is not the end of the day. Of course, we must go on to try to introduce light industry there.
I heard what the noble Lord, Lord Citrine said, but let us face the fact that 1·9 per cent. is full employment, by any accepted test. But that only throws into relief the fact that there are these areas which my noble friend Lord Polwarth mentioned, and the ones which the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, had in mind. It is now our responsibility and our stern duty to deal with these areas that have the worst figures; and in time we shall

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get the new Act. I think the two important points are the giving of grants instead of merely relying on rents, and, secondly, the one which has been mentioned in this debate: that you do not wait now until you have become an area before you deal with the threat. I put that point again very generally, but I am glad the noble Lord, Lord Greenhill, interposed because I feel very strongly on the point. But, although Scotland is nearest my own heart, I also feel very strongly about the areas in Wales, especially North West Wales, where there are small pockets, relatively to the population of other areas, which have had a very difficult time. Of course, in Northern Ireland and in parts of England, too, one finds these pockets.
My noble friend Lord Caldecote has told me that he had to leave. I think the point that remains in my mind is one that also affects the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham; and that is that Lord Caldecote thought so little of a Double First and a Fellow of All Souls in Classics applying his mind to science. On tilts point—and it has happened several times in the last five years—I find myself more in sympathy with Lord Pakenham's view, that the classic need not be a bad head of science. The noble Earl, Lord Albemarle, gave us an interesting speech on the problems of water, and again, if he will allow me, I will direct Mr. Brooke's attention to it. It is a problem which has been thrown into relief by the most unusual occurrence of a good summer in this country. Therefore, I should like to consider it most carefully, as I should also like to consider Lord Saltoun's suggestion as to dominium utile and the general view which he expressed with regard to the Mackintosh Report. Again I am sure he will allow me time to discuss it with my right honourable and learned friend, the Lord Advocate, before I form a view. But I will see that what is in his mind is brought to the attention of the Scottish Office, and I shall tell them how strongly he felt about it.
The noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, dealt with the question of penal reform. Here, I have not an improvement to report to him. If anything, the position is slightly worse—I do not want to disguise it—of about three in a cell. But, as he says, that is one aspect we must
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face, and again it is one that must make us refuse to be complacent in the matter. But I think the noble Lord appreciates that the White Paper discloses a programme which means that those responsible for prisons have got the tap turned from the Treasury in this matter. I remember that when I was Home Secretary we were discussing in another place the question of prisons, and Mr. Chuter Ede was dealing with it from the view of the Party opposite. He said: How could I, in these years when people were crying out for houses, hospitals, factories and all the other things of that sort, really stand out and press for a big allocation for prisons? I am sure the noble Lord appreciates that difficulty in these surroundings. I feel that the big change is that we are now on a road—it will take some time, because one cannot build very quickly—where there is no road block of that kind; therefore I can only ask the noble Lord to await the action which I am quite sure my right honourab Le friend Mr. Butler will pursue with all the force that he can.
LORD PAKENHAM: I am loth to interrupt, but I am bound to say that I do not feel the battle has been won. I know that the building allocation was very much higher in the current year, but this is a programme which is going to take years to fulfil, and I do not know what will happen from next spring onwards.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: There are one or two factors. The arrestment of wages, which we hoped might reduce the number by 3,000, should be beginning to "bite" by now. In addition to that, when I was Home Secretary I was always looking around to see what I could use—what old castle. I think Lancaster Castle, if my memory is right, I used as a prison, and various open prisons all over the place. One will have to go on in that way. But I do say this to the noble Lord, Lord Pakenham, as I have said to the right reverend Prelates who took part in the debate: that any prison postulates an initial failure which is a responsibility of all of us and a responsibility of the religious and moral forces of this country. The prisons can improve the person who has been convicted; but do not let us forget the initial responsibility of trying to

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prevent people from being convicted at all. I know the noble Lord will not object to my saying that, because, as I have said so often, I discovered within six months of being Home Secretary that all the provisions, helping the police to be more efficient, all I could do in those days with regard to prisons, were only a minor part of the problem compared to our recovery of the moral standards that we have lost.
I said that there were one or two points and I hope to deal with them very briefly. The noble Viscount who leads the Opposition asked me about these points, and I hope the House will bear with me while I try to deal with them as quickly as I can. He asked me to deal with the question of the steel shortage. Of course there is no general shortage of steel but only a marginal shortage of sheet steel for motor car bodies, and this has caused one firm to cut their Saturday shift; they are still working two full shifts of 45½ hours a week. Primarily this shortage has arisen because of the delays in completion of new plant and "teething" trouble at one of the major sheet-producing plants. As a result, the plant has not achieved the level of production which it was hoped to reach by the middle of this year, and the position has been made more difficult by the American steel strike and the effect of that strike on order books of Continental producers.
The Government have made a substantial contribution to the long-term position by means of loans to Colville's and Richard Thomas and Baldwins. As regards the short term, the Minister of Power is in close touch with the Iron and Steel Board, who are watching the position and, with the full co-operation of the Ministry, doing all they can to maximise production from existing plant and find ways of tiding over the present temporary shortage. By mid-1960 it is expected that there will be sufficient sheet available to meet all the estimated United Kingdom demands. I do not think that the prohibition on export of steel would be a good thing to do, because we must retain our hold on the export market; and of course exports include a quantity of sheet not suitable for the automobile industry.
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The next point that the noble Viscount asked me about, and the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, reinforced his argument, was the assistance which the United Kingdom Government has given and will continue to give to help to raise standards of living for the less developed countries of the world. That assistance takes two main forms. First there is the aid to the territories which are our dependencies and for which we hold a special and direct responsibility, and there is secondly the help we render in various ways to other under-developed countries inside and outside the Commonwealth. First of all, if I may take the colonial territories, under the Colonial Development and Welfare Act, 1959, there will be £140 million available over the next five years; that is £28 million a year. In addition, the Act empowered the Government to loan to the Governments of colonial territories up to £100 million over the same period by way of Exchequer loans. Your Lordships will remember that that is entirely a new provision. Up to £25 million can be approved in any one financial year. I believe that those two sources are important, because one of the difficulties in the Colonies in recent years has been in raising adequate external loan finance, and that meant that the Governments of many colonial territories had to rely heavily on local resources to keep the development plans going. I think that those two sources I have mentioned will be very helpful.
The money that goes out on Government account is only half of the total investment capital flowing into the colonial territories. External private investment of all kinds and from all sources averages £90 million a year—that was the average for 1956 to 1958—and nearly two-thirds of all the external capital flowing into the territories is estimated to have come from the United Kingdom. So, adding the official grants and the other capital movements, the United Kingdom's financial contribution to the colonial territories is estimated to have averaged £100 million a year during those three years.
Turning now to the help which we can give underdeveloped countries other than the Colonies, I would deal first with the independent Commonwealth. There the most important new measure of direct United Kingdom assistance has

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been the system of Commonwealth Assistance Loans from Exchequer funds, and in pursuance of the decision we announced at Montreal last year that is being done. Then there is the fact that we were the first to make our original subscription towards doubling the capital of the International Bank, a measure which has been now fully accomplished, and we have also enabled the Bank to speed up the use of the call part of our subscription. We have also contributed to the United Nations Special Fund and Expanded Programme for Technical Assistance. As a result of those various measures—grants and loans to the Colonies; the Commonwealth Assistance Loans; the use of our subscription by the International Bank, economic and technical assistance to all overseas countries and territories provided from the United Kingdom public funds including money channelled through the International Bank and United Nations—the total went up by a third in the last financial year to round about £100 million, and this year's out-turn is expected to show a similar increase of about a third. That is exclusive of military assistance, certain emergency expenditure and other miscellaneous items which altogether account for roughly a further £30 million. Part of this total aid is carried out under the aegis of the Colombo Plan.
There is one other point I want to make clear. As regards the future, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has announced a substantial increase in our contribution for coming years to United Nations programmes, and the work has already started in Washington of drawing up a constitution for a new International Development Association to supplement the operations of the International Bank by providing funds for development work which, though worthy of international support, cannot meet the more rigorous criteria applied by the Bank. This has our support, and if agreement is secured between the countries concerned my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be prepared to ask Parliament to put £50 million into the new Association. That shows that not only have we the private sector and an expanding public sector outside that £30 million of special arrangement, but also this new international development
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corporation. Therefore I think the picture is one not merely of a few pounds but of vastly increased financial aid.
The other point the noble Viscount challenged me about was in a very different field—namely, the Conservative and Labour Party funds. I was rather surprised that he did that, because our answer to this question has always been that the Labour Party funds do not show the amount of money that is spent on Socialism or the Labour Movement or anything like that. If you take the Labour Party funds, you have the Labour Party general income of £318,000-odd, a political fund income from the trade unions, after paying the affiliation fees to the Labour Party, of £528,000-odd, the affiliation fees of the Co-operative Party of £36,000-odd, making a total of £882,000. But to this you must then add first of all a small sum of £12,891, which is paid for the administrative expenditure of the Cooperative Party. Then there is a substantial element of Co-operative Movement expenditure, £507,000 by the retail societies in 1957, which is an expenditure on education, and much of that is propaganda for the Labour Party.
So that you have to take 1x of £507,000 and a portion of the expenditure from the general funds of the trade unions and other bodies—I quote the phrase "trade unions and other bodies"—of approximately £1 million, which is spent in producing magazines, lectures and other matters, mostly propaganda. I do not know—perhaps the noble Viscount will see that we are informed—what is the proportion of the half a million pounds from the Co-operative Movement and of the £1 million from the trade unions which has a political effect. I should have thought it was at least £600,000, probably three-quarters of a million. When we know that, we shall consult my noble friend Lord Hailsham as to what was spent; but I think we ought to have those figures.
On the other hand, the noble Viscount who leads the Opposition complained about industrial companies directly or indirectly conducting propaganda against nationalisation. I would point out to him that an industrial company is incorporated in order to carry on business, and it is the duty of the directors to do

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that. If somebody threatens to stop them from carrying on the business I should have thought it was common sense, and, as I believe, it is Common Law, that they should be able to use their funds in order to fight the threat. I must say that I can see nothing against that on moral grounds, or any other. That is a position upon which we shall always argue. I stated the same argument myself, I am sorry to say, in the House of Commons ten years ago when we debated Party funds, and I suppose the noble Viscount and I will continue to state our respective arguments so long as we continue to argue, which we shall as long as we live.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, if the noble and learned Viscount has finished on that point, I think it proper to make a comment on the figures that he has mentioned. Your Lordships may remember the enormous sum of £100,000 spent on the poster and other campaigns and special sorts of Gallup Polls by way of canvassing. That expenditure was so huge that, on the basis of what the Lord Chancellor has just said, it means that a very large part of that expenditure would be allowed as a trade expense. All the fees that he has quoted as coming from the Co-operative Movement, for instance, are a part of the taxable turnover and are not allowed as a trade expenditure. That is my information.
As regards the educational side of the Co-operative Movement, I am sure that the Lord Chancellor must have overlooked the enormous expenditure upon scholarships for the actual business training of hundreds of thousands of employees in the Movement. It has its own college in Leicestershire, and, with all the local educational classes which are conducted, to try to write this off as propaganda does not make sense to anybody who has been raised in the Movement. Of course, the rest of the local expenditure is incurred in places where there is a Co-operative political candidate in a constituency, for the employment of agents in the particular constituencies—no doubt the Conservatives employ agents—and for the support of candidates for municipal councils and the like. They can be completely justified in every respect as being quite sound against the continued antipathy of late
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years of the Conservative Government against the Movement.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I do not think that the noble Viscount has quite appreciated the force of my figures. I was saying that in the case of the Co-operative societies the figure is £500,000; that in the case of the trade unions and other funds, it was £1 million making a total of £1½ million. For that I was allowing only—I stand amazed at my own moderation—£600,000 out of £1,500,000 as political, and it was on that basis that I arrived at my figures. I have not studied the position to know how far it goes, and I do not think we want to get heated about it. Certainly, I am not going to do so at the end of such a friendly debate. But when we get the sort of suggestion that hundreds of thousands of pounds coming from industry—and after all, the 600 most important firms in industry were fighting for their lives up to October 8—
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: They were not.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: When that is complained of, and when, on the other side, you have the co-operative societies and the trade unions pouring funds into the Labour Party, then I think we are entitled just to say that the balance is not so much as one would have thought from the speech of the noble Viscount.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: I would only suggest that the Lord Chancellor, having delved into our records, would perhaps now like to give us the figures from the Conservative side.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the noble Viscount is really not listening to what I have said. I have said it twice, and I will say it a third time. The important figures out of that £1½ million are not published. Until he publishes the political content coming out of the £1½ million he has no right to ask us to publish our figures. That is what I say.
My Lords, I am sorry to have detained your Lordships for so long but I always enjoy an argument with the noble Viscount so much so that I could not restrain myself this time; but I hope that everyone has taken it in the truly

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Pickwickian sense in which it is meant. But I do want to say this: I am sorry nobody is here from the Liberal Party—
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: Hear, hear!—a new approach!
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: —because they described this as a "pedestrian" Speech—indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Latham, said the same. I have put my peroration on one side, but I want to say only this: we have a great responsibility as political leaders but we are also interpreters of the feelings of the people of the country. I have spoken almost every night at every Election since 1922—it is a short time compared with that covered by the noble Viscount, but it is 37 years—and I have always found (and noble Lords may know that I sat for a Division of Liverpool where the people are grand and not at all rich) that the things that really mattered were homes, work, the education of children, provision for the casualties of life, the standard of living for which our people as a whole can hope, and their hopes of peace. I cannot blame people who take these as the important objects of politics. I do myself, and I should feel very proud if I had contributed to a general advance—and so would noble Lords opposite.
That is what the gracious Speech tries to deal with—the hopes of peace; with easing the tension between East and West; with homes, and not only house-
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building but slum clearance, which is so important. It deals with education at every level. It expresses our view, which we have put into operation in these eight years, that pensioners will share in prosperity and will not be merely left. If we had left them level with the change in the cost of living the rise would be only 10s. and not 20s., as it is now. It deals with the standard of life which is important to us, not so much as a mere record of prosperity but as a record of our philosophy coming into effect. After our defeat in 1945 our philosophy, rightly or wrongly, was to create a property-owning democracy. We have created it, and the importance of people owning their houses, one-third having a car and two-thirds having television sets, is not just the picture of prosperity: it is the proof that wealth has been distributed, and that the democracy does at last own. If the gracious Speech does express that fact, it is good enough for me. I only apologise for having taken so much of your Lordships' time.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I beg to move that the debate be now adjourned.
Moved, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Viscount Alexander of Hillsborough.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned accordingly until Tuesday next.
House adjourned at five minutes before nine o'clock.