Sitting of 12 May 1959

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  PUBLIC TRUSTEE OFFICE
  Mr. Denzil Freethasked the Attorney-General the proportion of the expenditure of the Public Trustee Office incurred in the management of private trusts; and the proportion, and amount, incurred on other trusts.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Reginald Manningham-Buller): It is not possible to apportion the expenditure of the Public Trustee Office between the different trusts administered by it.
  Mr. Freeth: Will my hon. and learned Friend, however, not agree that it is unfair that small people whose trusts are managed by the Public Trustee Office should have found in the last year that their management fees have risen no less than four times?
  The Attorney-General: The management fees have risen to pay for the increased expenses. By Section 9 (4) of the Public Trustee Act, 1906, the Public Trustee Office can charge only enough fees to discharge the salaries and other expenses incidental to the working of the Act.
  Mr. Denzil Freethasked the Attorney-General the sum brought in in the last financial year of operation of the withdrawal fee charges by the Public Trustee Office; and whether this sum relates to the period before or after the halving of this fee.
  The Attorney-General: A sum of £146,474 was taken by the Public Trustee in withdrawal fees in the financial year 1958–59. Of that amount £26,168 was levied at the old rate.

  PSYCHIATRISTS
  Mr. Osborneasked the Attorney-General how many psychiatrists are officially employed, either part-time or full-time, in criminal courts; how much they are paid; on what grounds they are appointed; how they can be dismissed; and if he will make a statement.
  The Attorney-General: The answer to the first part of the Question is, "None". The second, third and fourth parts do not therefore arise. The answer to the fifth part is, "No".
  Mr. Osborne: Does my right hon. and learned Friend know that I am delighted with these answers? May I have an assurance from him that no public money will be wasted on this type of evidence given in court? In order to support what I am asking him to do, would he be good enough to look at a case which John Gordon mentioned recently in the Sunday Express of a man who strangled his sweetheart—a case in which a psychiatrist said that he was doing it, as it were, by mercy killing? Will he see that such rubbish is not put before the courts at public expense?
  The Attorney-General: Dealing with the question of public expense, I am not aware of any waste of money in presenting evidence to the courts. As to receiving evidence from persons called by the defence who are psychiatrists, I certainly would not be in favour of putting any restriction on the evidence given on behalf of the defence.

  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Royal Parks (Carriageways)
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the. Minister of Works the regulations governing the use of carriageways in the Royal Parks by all-purpose passenger vehicles such as the Dormobile.
    The Minister of Works (Mr. Hugh Molson): In Royal Parks where limited carriage traffic is permitted, vehicles of this type are allowed to enter provided they are not constructed, adapted or being used for the purpose of any trade or business, or as a dwelling; and provided they are not designed to seat more than seven passengers in addition to the driver..

    1021
    In Bushy Park all types of vehicle are permitted on the direct road between Teddington and Hampton Court.
    Mr. Ernest Davies: While thanking the Minister for clarifying the position, may I ask him whether he can arrange that adequate instructions are given to the custodians of the park so that there is some consistency in the enforcement of the regulations? Is he aware that sometimes people are stopped and not permitted into the park and at other times, when using the same vehicle, they are permitted into the park? Is he aware that there is no consistency in the operation of the regulations?
    Mr. Molson: I am obliged to the hon. Member for drawing my attention to that fact. I did not know that it was so. I will try to ensure that there is uniformity in administration.

    New Central Post Office, Stoke-on-Trent
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Works 'what consultations he has had or proposes to have with the City of Stoke-on-Trent and British Railways about the proposed Government buildings on the Station Road site, Stoke-on-Trent; and to what extent it is intended to clear the whole site from the railway lines, lay it out in harmony with the turf layout by the city council and construct all new buildings for the Post Office in association with British Railways in accordance with modern architecture.
    Mr. Molson: The local planning authority, which is already aware of the proposal to develop the Station Road site for the Post Office, will be consulted about the form of the development. British Railways, who are selling the site to the Post Office, will also he consulted so far as their interests may be affected. The site being acquired by the Post Office does not adjoin the railway lines, and the Ministry will not therefore be concerned with the general development of the area between the Post Office's site and the railway. The buildings erected on this site will be of modern design.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Will the Minister note that the city will very much appreciate his reply? Can he assure the House that he has had the maximum cooperation from all interests in providing what is proposed at this site?
    Mr. Molson: I think that there has been general co-operation by all concerned.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Works if he will give the date when the completion of the new central post office in the City of Stoke-on-Trent is desired; when tenders will be invited for the building construction off Station Road, Stoke; on what date the successful contractor is expected to start work; and to what extent the contract for the building and equipment will be open to all for competitive tender.
    Mr. Molson: It is hoped that tenders may be invited during 1961, work started three or four months later, and the scheme completed two years after that. The contract for the building work will be put out to competitive tender among selected firms.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: That is good as far as it goes, but is the Minister aware that there is a large amount of demolition work to take place and that there is also a huge pond full of water? If these dates are to be worked to, should not that demolition work and the clearing of the water be taking place now? Will the Minister give an undertaking that this work will be let out to competitive tender?
    Mr. Molson: Yes, it will be let out to competitive tender, but to selected firms.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: There are many workers unemployed locally in the building industry. Will that point also be taken into consideration when this work is being carried out?
    Mr. Molson: When this work is undertaken it will obviously give employment to a number of workmen in the building industry.

    Parks and Open Spaces, London (Fencing)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Works in how many instances, where his Department is responsible, fences have been replaced or provided around parks or open spaces in London that previously were unfenced; and for what reason this was done.
    Mr. Molson: The fencing around Primrose Hill was removed in 1929, and during the war almost all the boundary railings and fences around the Royal

    1023
    Parks were removed for scrap. All these fences have now been replaced. In 1948 a hedge and fence was placed around Grosvenor Square, which had previously been unenclosed.
    This has been done to protect the parks and open spaces from damage, and to help in maintaining law and order.
    Mr. Sorensen: Would not the Minister agree that, unless there are serious views to the contrary, we want to minimise the number of fences as much as possible so that we may have the full advantage of the aesthetic amenities of these areas?
    Mr. Molson: We have had experience of the parks being completely open for some time, and experience showed that it was desirable that fences should be put round. During the day, if there are no fences, people are much inclined to walk across the turf and to destroy it. However, the much more serious thing is that we find it necessary to close nearly all the parks at night because of considerations of public decency.
    Mr. Lipton: Is the Minister satisfied that by restoring the railings round the Royal Parks he has increased law and order in the areas concerned?
    Mr. Molson: As everybody knows, the position is not at all satisfactory. If the parks were not closed at night, the position would be still more unsatisfactory.

  SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH

    Glasgow Tramcars (Fire Research)
    Sir J. Hutchisonasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what progress has been made in the research at the Government Fire Research Establishment at Boreham Wood into the flammability of Glasgow tramcars.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Harmar Nicholls): An investigation was carried out at the request of the Ministry of Transport by the Joint Fire Research Organisation of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research into certain aspects of a recent fire which occurred after an accident between a
    1024
    lorry and a Glasgow tramcar. This has been completed and the results forwarded to the Ministry of Transport who are investigating the accident.

    Small Firms (Research Information)
    Mr. L. Thomasasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what steps the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research is taking to improve the communication of new research results to smaller firms that have few or no scientific staff.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: The Department is helping active local organisations to build up regional technical information services based on Birmingham, Bristol, Cardiff, Manchester and Newcastle. The staffs of these centres put firms in touch with sources of information.
    Mr. Thomas: I thank my hon. Friend for that Answer. Can he say how these centres will approach local small firms so that they can take advantage of and receive benefit from the services which are now to be provided? Will he publish a full list of the localities and areas in which these centres are to be set up?
    Mr. Nicholls: The contact is made by actual visits from the research centre and by the normal Press reports and brochures. I do not know whether in answer to a supplementary question I could have published the addresses of the centres which I have mentioned. If not, I will write to my hon. Friend and give details to him.
    Mr. H. Hynd: When the Government provide the results of research to firms, sometimes after considerable expense to the public, will the hon. Gentleman consider making a reasonable charge?
    Mr. Nicholls: Generally speaking, contributions are made from the industries concerned. Contributions also come from various organisations supporting those industries.

    Sewage Purification Plants
    Mr. L. Thomasasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what work the Water Pollution Research Laboratory of the

    1025
    Department of Scientific and Industrial Research has done to improve the efficiency of sewage purification plants.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: Following the suggestion of the staff of a district drainage board, this laboratory studied on a large scale for a period of years the potentialities of the alternating double filtration process of treating sewage. It has shown that the process of using two percolating filters, with their order in series changed at intervals, enables much greater volumes of sewage to be treated without increase in size of plant.
    Mr. Thomas: Can my hon. Friend say whether the results of this research are being applied in practice today? If so, will he communicate, through his right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, with all local authorities so that they may reap the benefit from this research in their sewage works?
    Mr. Nicholls: Local authorities know about the researches which are going on, and there is clear evidence that the results are being applied. When I was looking into this matter I noticed a case in which if the old system had been in operation it would have cost about £480,000 to extend the sewage plant, whereas by using this system the same result was achieved at a cost of £87,000. This system is being applied and very practical results are being shown.
    Mr. Anthony Greenwood: Can the hon. Gentleman say how many local authorities have adopted the system?
    Mr. Nicholls: No, Sir. I should want notice of that supplementary question.

    Industry (Social and Psychological Problems)
    Mr. Hirstasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what progress the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research has made with the issue of industrial versions of research reports on social and psychological problems in industry.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: From the research reports on social and psychological projects in industry, the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research with the agreement of the Medical Research Council has selected twelve projects as being suitable for presentation in a short and popular
    1026
    form. Three of these have already been published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office and other issues are in preparation.
    Mr. Hirst: Is not this work financed from conditional aid funds from United States economic aid? Will the work come to an end when those funds cease?
    Mr. Nicholls: The cost of publishing the popular versions of the results of the research does not all come out of conditional aid. The Department intends to go on with the twelve projects, to which I have referred in the Answer, in any case, quite apart from the conditional aid funds.

  SCOTLAND

    Motorways (Fencing)
    Sir W. Anstruther-Grayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland to what extent it is his policy to use home-grown timber in the fencing of new motorways built under his auspices.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Niall Macpherson): No motorways are at present projected in Scotland.

    Tay Road Bridge
    Mr. M. Clark Hutchisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will make a statement about a Tay road bridge.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: I understand that since the Secretary of State's meeting with the local authorities concerned on 12th November last they have been discussing with the Dundee Harbour Trust questions affecting the northern end of the bridge in relation to the harbour. I expect that when these discussions have been completed the local authorities will arrange for test borings to be taken along the line proposed for the bridge.
    Mr. Hutchison: Can the Joint Under-Secretary say when work is likely to start on the bridge? Is he aware that such a bridge will do much to improve the (low of trade in east Scotland?
    Mr. Macpherson: Before questions as to when a start can be made on the bridge may be considered a lot of work must be done. A provisional Order has to be obtained. Other interests, such as the

    1027
    Dundee Harbour Trust, have to be consulted and engineering plans have to be prepared. All that work has to be done before the possibility of authorising the bridge is considered.
    Mr. G. M. Thomson: If these trial borings prove successful, can the Joint Under-Secretary give an assurance that he will give an early starting date for the bridge?
    Mr. Macpherson: As I have said, a great deal more work will have to be done even after that test has been made.

    Children (Voluntary Homes)
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he proposes to issue Regulations in respect of voluntary homes for children.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: My right hon. Friend made these Regulations on 5th May, and they will come into operation on 1st August, 1959.

    Catering Premises (Registration)
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to issue Regulations under Section 14 of the Food and Drugs (Scotland) Act, 1956, in respect of registration of catering premises.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. J. Nixon Browne): Immediately the Scottish Food Hygiene Regulations become fully operative my right hon. Friend intends to seek the advice of the Scottish Food Hygiene Council on the question of making an Order under Section 14.
    Mr. Hannan: This Act was passed in 1956. Surely three years is sufficient time in which to have progressed much further with these Regulations. Cannot the hon. Gentleman speed the matter up?
    Mr. Browne: I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the need for urgency, but the Scottish Food Hygiene Regulations are not yet fully operative.

    Road Safety (Drew Report)
    Mr. Hannanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in the forthcoming road safety campaign, account will be taken of the need to implement the Drew Committee Report on Road Safety and Alcohol.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: There is nothing which can be usefully added to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation on 5th May.
    Mr. Hannan: That reply was extremely disappointing to those of us who are anxious that the sale of alcohol on new motorways or in roadhouses on busy thoroughfares should be very much restricted. Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the Drew Committee, which is a scientific committee, came to the conclusion that there was the possibility of mean error to the extent of even 16 per cent. where a small quantity of alcohol had been consumed? Will not the hon. Gentleman take action to deal with this menace on the roads?
    Mr. Macpherson: It would be better for the House to await the publication of the Drew Committee's Report. I understand that a preliminary account of the experiments was given in the British Medical Journal of 25th October, 1958. The Medical Research Council will publish a further report later this year. I suggest that it would be better to await the full report before we decide what action should be taken.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the Minister satisfied that the great crowd of cars that one sees around roadhouses are all driven by drivers who confine themselves to soda water? If not, is he satisfied that all these drivers leave these places in a fit condition to drive a vehicle on the road?
    Mr. Macpherson: This is a difficult matter to discuss in question and answer in the House. It goes much further than that. It would be more appropriate to discuss it at greater length at another time.

    Roads (Double White Lines)
    Sir W. Anstruther-Grayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many miles of road in Scotland will be affected by the new double white line rule; and what steps he has taken to make sure that it is clearly understood.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: The total mileage to be marked depends on the outcome of a detailed survey now being carried out by highway authorities, with whom the decision whether to introduce the new

    1029
    markings will rest. Full publicity has been given to the significance of the new markings.

    Caldwell House and Woodlands House (Patients)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) the principle upon which his Department acts in allocating patients to Caldwell House, Uplamoor, and Woodlands House, respectively; and to what extent he takes into account in each case the place of residence of the patient's parents, relations and friends, for the purpose of facilitating their visits to the patients
    (2) the principle on which his Department acts in arranging the transfer of patients from Caldwell House to Woodlands House, and vice versa, and in arranging the exchange of patients from one to the other; how many such transfers and exchanges have taken place during each of the last five years; and how far in effecting such transfers and exchanges, the expressed wishes of the patients' relations and friends are usually, and actually have been, taken into account by his Department.
    Mr. J. N. Browne: The admission of patients is arranged by the physician superintendents of the institutions. My right hon. Friend is satisfied that they are guided by the best interests of the patients and, so far as resources permit, take full account of the matters to which the Questions refer. There have been no transfers between Caldwell House and Woodlands in the last five years, but my right hon. Friend will be glad to look into any particular case.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister realise that these two homes are nearly 200 miles apart and that when patients are placed in homes distant from the residence of their parents, fatigue and expense are caused to their parents when visiting them? What steps are being taken to ensure that patients are placed in homes near the residence of their parents?
    Mr. Browne: We would, of course, try to ensure that that was done as far as possible. There may be considerations about the mental and physical condition of the patient. If, however, the hon. and learned Member has any particular case in mind, I will be most willing to look into it.

    Bridge of Don, Aberdeen (Opening)
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is now in a position to make a further statement about the completion and opening of the new Bridge of Don, Aberdeen; and what are his plans in connection with the roads leading to it from the north and south, respectively.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: Her Majesty the Queen Mother has graciously agreed to open the reconstructed Bridge of Don on Monday, 25th May.
    When schemes at present in progress have been completed, nine miles of the trunk road to the north of the bridge will have been reconstructed to modern standards; the roads south of the bridge are the responsibility of Aberdeen Town Council as highway authority.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Minister realise that this bridge and the roads which serve it are very important for the whole northeast of Scotland? Will he plan the roads in accordance with the great necessities of that region?
    Mr. Macpherson: The needs of the region will certainly be considered. Our view at present, however, is that in the case of the roads beyond the junction with A.975, where the reconstructed section of the road ends, there is not the same need for comprehensive improvements.

    Town Councils (Triennial Elections)
    Mr. M. Clark Hutchisonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will consider introducing legislation to provide for triennial elections for town councils in Scotland.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: My right hon. Friend proposes to consult the local authority associations concerned on this suggestion.
    Mr. Clark Hutchison: Will the ratepayers' associations, the churches and other bodies which make up public opinion also be consulted, so that we may have a good idea whether this notion has the general approval of the people of Scotland?
    Mr. Macpherson: We shall consult the local authority associations in the first place. I shall pass on to my right hon. Friend what my hon. Friend has said.

    Teachers (Vacant Posts)
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to end canvassing in connection with vacancies for teaching posts in schools.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: In circular No. 404 of 19th March, 1959, my right hon. Friend told education authorities that he considered canvassing prejudicial to the standing of the teaching profession and that they should not hesitate to prohibit it.
    Mr. Thomson: Is the Minister aware that the education convener of one prominent Scottish local authority celebrated the arrival of his circular by making a public statement that he preferred open canvassing for posts? Will the Minister take steps to make this degrading practice illegal, either by attaching it as a condition of grant or in some other way?
    Mr. Macpherson: I certainly was not aware of that, but I shall ask my right hon. Friend to consider what the hon. Member has said. The hon. Member will, however, realise that the responsibility for appointing teaching staff is vested by Statute in the education authorities.

    Teachers (Salaries)
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he accepts the salary recommendations of the Advisory Council on Education in its Report on the Supply of Teachers in Secondary Schools.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: My right hon. Friend would prefer not to comment on these recommendations until he has received the views of the National Joint Council to deal with the salaries of teachers in Scotland.
    Mr. Thomson: Is the Minister aware that these recommendations are the result of deliberations extending over a period of two years by an extremely powerful and influential committee and that the matter is now of great urgency? Will he give an assurance that the Secretary of State will take his decision without waiting for the usual triennial consideration next April?
    Mr. Macpherson: I cannot give that assurance. It was, of course, within the rights of the Advisory Council—and my right hon. Friend was glad that it did so—to give the matter very full consideration. Before my right hon. Friend makes salary regulations, however, he is required by Statute to notify the National Joint Council and to have regard to its recommendations. Before anything else happens, therefore, he must receive the National Joint Council's recommendations.

    Obstetric Units (Beds)
    Mrs. Mannasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how soon he will put into operation the recommendations of the Montgomery Committee with particular regard to the allocation of beds in obstetric units.
    Mr. J. N. Browne: My right hon. Friend has already written to regional hospital boards. There will shortly be discussion with the medical profession and a circular to local authorities on relevant recommendations.
    Mrs. Mann: Will the hon. Gentleman impress upon his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State the urgency of allocation, because the other recommendations will take some time? Is he aware that allocation of these beds can rest upon nothing stronger than a layman's recommendation? Will he ensure that a doctor's report goes with every application for a bed? The doctors are complaining that a great many of the mothers who have no hot water supply and who share lavatories on the stair-heads with other tenants are excluded from beds when other ladies who have influence and fine homes could quite well have their confinements in their own homes?
    Mr. Browne: The hon. Lady raises points of which my right hon. Friend is well aware and which will be urgently attended to.

    Islands (Piers)
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many Scottish islands with a population over 100 remain without a pier adequate for the landing of livestock from steamers.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Lord John Hope): So far as I am aware, there are nine such islands.
    Mr. Grimond: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the policy on this point laid down in the Labour Government's White Paper on Highland Development remains the policy of the present Government?
    Lord John Hope: What I can tell the hon. Member is not relevant in the least to what the Labour Government may or may not have said they wished to do. Of these nine islands, work is proceeding on one of them. There are only four about which nothing so far has been considered, simply because no suggestions have been forthcoming from them.

    Hospital Patients (Weekly Cost)
    Mr. Rossasked the Secretary of Sate for Scotland why the average weekly cost per patient in Scottish hospitals rose by £1 3s. 3d. in 1958.
    Mr. J. N. Browne: More than half of the increase was due to increases in salaries and wages and in prices between 1957 and 1958. Improvements in the service and changes in accounting practice account for the rest of the difference.
    Mr. Ross: While thanking the hon. Gentleman for his Answer, which refers to information in the Health Report, may I ask whether he is aware that while the cost of living remains mysteriously stable, showing, as evidenced by these figures, a 10 per cent. increase, the cost of keeping alive reflects much more accurately the experience of every housewife in the country?
    Mr. Browne: On the contrary, we must give the very best service we can.
    Mr. McInnes: Do I understand the hen. Gentleman to indicate that because of changes in the system of accountancy, the cost to the hospitals has increased?
    Mr. Browne: Yes. Certain items of equipment and furniture that formerly were charged to capital account are now charged to revenue account.

    Children (Physical and Mental Handicaps)
    Mr. Rossasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how he proposes to secure in the pre-school children better
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    detection of early physical and mental handicaps.
    Mr. J. N. Browne: The medical and nursing staffs of local health authorities, particularly the health visitors, take every opportunity to secure earlier ascertainment of mental and physical handicaps. My right hon. Friend is satisfied that local authorities do all they can to carry out this important statutory duty.
    Mr. Ross: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that his own Report points to this as a defect in the Health Service? Is he aware that children are appearing in school where it is discovered they are suffering from defects which if they had been detected earlier would have been treated without impairing the child during that time or doing injury to its educational capacity?
    Mr. Browne: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that this is an important matter. It is up to us to teach the mothers, who have to allow examination of children under five, to realise how important it is.

    National Health Service (Consultants)
    Mr. Rossasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many consultants there are in the National Health Service in Scotland at the latest date; how many of these are full time, and how many part time; and what were the respective figures for 1952, 1954, 1956, and 1957.
    Mr. J. N. Browne: As the reply involves a number of figures, I will with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL, REPORT.
    Mr. Ross: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will do more than that. Will he promise that next year's Report will give us, as in the past, a much better idea of how the Health Service is working and that he will not cheesepare by cutting out these tables in the way he has done this year?
    Mr. Browne: I am aware of that, but the hon. Member knows that more comprehensive statistical information about the National Health Service will be published separately from the Department's Annual Report. The first statistical publication should be available towards the end of the summer. I am aware of the

    1035
    hon. Member's views and of the assurances which I have already given to him to look into the matter.
    Following is the reply:
    At 31st December, 1958, there were 370 whole-time consultants and 425 part-time consultants. There are also 143 consultants who are university staff: most of these are whole-time staff. The comparable figures for 1952, 1954, 1956 and 1957 are as follows:

    Whole-time

    Part-time

    University

    31st December, 1952

    268

    378

    104

    31st December, 1954

    328

    394

    113

    31st December, 1956

    365

    413

    136

    31st December, 1957

    367

    426

    141

    Home Ownership
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what new legislation he intends to introduce to encourage further the private ownership of home property.
    Mr. J. N. Browne: Provisions to give effect to the Government's new house purchase scheme are contained in the House Purchase and Housing Bill, which is expected shortly to become law. These provisions will be widely publicised, and should bring about a large increase in home ownership.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister aware that the Scottish Tory Party Conference passed unanimously a resolution calling for the abolition of the Schedule A property tax? Is he aware that the conference demanded a fair deal for property owners? Does he intend to circularise this body to show it exactly what the Government have done for property owners?
    Mr. Browne: I was wondering what the hon. Member's supplementary question would be—whether he had come over to our side. Unfortunately he has asked a question which should be addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    Children (Welfare Foods)
    Mrs. Mannasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has read the
    1036
    report of Lord Boyd Orr in respect of the evidence that children are beginning to show signs of suffering from malnutrition diseases due to decreased consumption of the welfare foods, a copy of which has been sent to him; and if he will make a statement on Government policy in regard to the future distribution of these foods in Scotland.
    Mr. J. N. Browne: My right hon. Friend has read an extract from the report of a speech by Lord Boyd Orr on this subject, but he has no evidence of malnutrition due to decreased consumption of welfare foods, and he has received no representations from local authorities on the subject. He is, of course, anxious that full advantage should be taken of the facilities available.
    Mrs. Mann: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friend could not have read the report very accurately or he would have seen the evidence which was submitted to Lord Boyd Orr from the Glasgow Department of Public Health? Does he not think it is necessary to have a drive in respect of welfare foods and particularly that the age limit for qualification for welfare foods should be raised from two years to five years?
    Mr. Browne: We must continue the drive in this matter, but my right hon. Friend has not received any representations from health authorities. If they feel very strongly on this matter I sincerely hope that they would make such representations.

    Motoring Offences (Penalties)
    Mr. Nairnasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what proposals he has for a review of the penalties for motoring offences in Scotland.
    Mr. N. Macpherson: None, Sir.
    Mr. Nairn: Would my hon. Friend ask his right hon. Friend to have another look at this matter in the light of the fact that many people cannot afford the heavy cost of appeal against an unreasonable sentence? Will he also ask his right hon. Friend to reconsider the matter in the light of the reversal on appeal of the harsh sentences for relatively trivial offences recently imposed by Sheriff Frame in Ayrshire?
    Mr. Macpherson: I would remind my hon. Friend that the revision of penalties

    1037
    in relation to motoring offences was made as recently as 1956, that legal aid is available and that the right of appeal has been used. Where it is used it does not follow that the expense will fall on the person who is successful.*
    [*NOTE: See correction in c. 1249.]

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Trade Mission to U.S.S.R.
    Mr. G. M. Thomsonasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will expand the trade mission to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics by the inclusion of representatives of the Scottish Council (Development and Industry).
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. John Rodgers): No, Sir. The mission is a small one and members have not been selected on geographical grounds. The interests of Scotland have, however, been taken fully into account in the preparation of instructions for the mission.
    Mr. Thomson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I have no objection to geographical areas in the United Kingdom benefiting in the way suggested, but why should he not take advantage of the expert services of the Scottish Council, which secures orders for Scotland from all over the world, in view of the traditional link between Scotland and the Baltic countries and the high level of unemployment in Scotland?
    Mr. Rodgers: Since the dispatch of the mission was made known, my right hon. Friend has been in touch with representatives of the Scottish Council and we have no reason to believe that the points to which the Council attached importance were not included in the briefs of members of the mission. Furthermore, we have had no request for inclusion from members of the Scottish Council.
    Mr. Woodburn: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the great experience of the Scottish Co-operative Wholesale Society in making barter arrangements with the Russians in connection with herring and other goods? Would he draw on that experience in cases where normal monetary exchanges are not possible?
    Mr. Rodgers: All these things will be borne in mind by my right hon. Friend, who should be in Moscow today.

    Cinemas (Closures)
    Mr. Swinglerasked the President of the Board of Trade how many cinemas have closed in each of the last five years; and what proportion of these cinemas was in rural districts.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: Total closures in the years 1954 to 1957, were 72, 93, 224 and 216 respectively. For the year 1958 the provisional figure is 261. The number exempt from Entertainments Duty as being in rural areas for the purposes of the Finance Acts and having less than 400 seats which closed in 1958 was 17. Figures for earlier years are not available.
    Mr. Swingler: In view of the Chancellor's extraordinary failure to notice in his Budget the slump in trade, would the hon. Gentleman inform his right hon. Friend of these figures which reveal a decline in the number of cinemas and in particular the seriously declining opportunity to go to the cinema in rural areas?
    Mr. Rodgers: I am sure that my right hon. Friend is well aware of the change in public taste as shown in cinema attendances.

    French Cider Apples
    Major Legge-Bourkeasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will take immediate action to stop the practice whereby the French Government by deferring payment until several months after delivery, are subsidising the transport costs on French cider apples destined for this country, so avoiding United Kingdom anti-dumping legislation.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: No. Sir, but if the United Kingdom growers would let me have detailed information about the subsidisation arrangements to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers and of the material injury it is causing, I will consider it.
    Major Legge-Bourke: Is my hon. Friend aware that the French have just announced last month that they are providing subsidies for the transport cost of cider apples equivalent to £5,000 a week and that during October approximately £4,000 worth a week came into the country? Would my hon. Friend look at this matter and be ready to implement the anti-dumping legislation?
    Mr. Rodgers: I should be grateful if my hon. and gallant Friend would provide evidence of what he has just quoted. The initiative for action under the Customs Duties (Dumping and Subsidies) Act rests with the industry which considers itself injured by dumping or subsidisation. There has been no application or inquiry in respect of cider apples from France.

    Goatskins
    Captain Orrasked the President of the Board of Trade what representations he has received from the leather industry for the free-listing of raw goatskins.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: My right hon. Friend has been urged by the British Kid Tanners' Association Ltd. to reconsider the rejection of its application for the removal of this duty, and he has told the association that, in present circumstances, he is not prepared to do so.
    Captain Orr: Is my hon. Friend aware that this is a serious matter for the British leather industry? Is he aware that many tanneries are on short-time and that a few have closed down throughout the country, and that is almost entirely due to this ad valorem duty?
    Mr. Rodgers: All these factors were taken into account, but we have obligations to Commonwealth countries which supply about 95 per cent. of our imports.
    Mr. Paget: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is also a serious matter for the boot and shoe trade, which is not getting the skins? Is he aware that India, the principal supplier, has already sold over 80 per cent. of the supply to the Russians and that these skins are simply not obtainable from Empire sources? Is he aware that the result is that this means that an advantage is being given to the foreign boot exporter who can buy the skins from which he makes boots very much cheaper than they can be bought in this country?
    Mr. Rodgers: That is a point which I would certainly like to look into.
    Captain Orrasked the President of the Board of Trade what approaches he has made to the three countries to whom undertakings perpetuating the duty on raw goatskins were given.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: The Commonwealth Governments concerned were approached early in 1958 when the Board of Trade announced publicly that an application by the British Kid Tanners' Association for the free-listing of goatskins was under examination.
    Captain Orr: In view of the fact mentioned by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) that Commonwealth countries are hardly supplying any duty-free goatskins at all, will my hon. Friend look at this matter again?
    Mr. Rodgers: Certainly, but I think that my hon. and gallant Friend will agree that communication with Commonwealth countries on the question of preferences should be confidential.

    Consumer Protection (Departmental Committee)
    Mrs. Mannasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will now announce the terms of reference of the social survey on consumer protection, and the extent to which it is intended to consult weights and measures inspectors and women's organisations representing large bodies of consumers, as was done by the Hodgson Committee.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: My right hon. Friend is not yet ready to announce the terms of reference and the name of the chairman of the Departmental Committee on Consumer Protection but he hopes to do so shortly. The Committee will seek the views of the various women's organisations, but will not be concerned with the law on weights and measures.
    Mrs. Mann: As the Hodgson Report of 1951 was one on weights and measures, and now that the weights and measures men find that in this prepack age some weight should be displayed on the packet, why not call them in?
    Mr. Rodgers: I think there is a slight confusion in the hon. Lady's mind between weights and measures and the Departmental Committee on Consumer Protection. The social survey to which she makes reference in the Question, which is being carried out by the Central Office of Information, deals exclusively with weights and measures which the Departmental Committee on Consumer Protection excludes.

  RADIOACTIVITY
  Mr. Mossasked the Prime Minister (1) whether, in view of the acceptance by the Medical Research Council that the genetically significant dose from medical diagnostic radiology may be as much as 100 per cent. of natural background radiation, he will take steps to minimise all sources of manmade radiation in this country;
  (2) whether his attention has been called to paragraph 44 of Command Paper No. 508 and paragraph 55 (a) of Chapter 7 of the Report of the United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation, where it is stated that the genetic effects of radiation are proportional and the somatic effect may or may not be proportional; and what steps he will take to minimise the incidence of radiation upon the population of the United Kingdom.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): Yes, Sir. I have seen the paragraphs mentioned by the hon. Member. I would refer him to my Answer on 7th May to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Poole (Captain Pilkington) and my replies to the supplementary questions which followed. It is not possible to reduce natural radiation, but a number of steps can be and are being taken to minimise the amounts of radiation received from man-made sources.
  Mr. Moss: Is the Prime Minister aware that the difficulty here is that paragraph 25 of Cmnd. Paper 508 modifies the original opinion of the Medical Research Council that the genetically significant dose was one of 22 to 100, and that the Medical Research Council has now accepted the view that in countries with developed medical services the genetically significant dose from medical diagnostic radiology may be as high as 100 per cent. of the natural background?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. The hon. Gentleman has quoted correctly from this Paper, which stated that in this country we estimated it to be 22. That is the figure I have always given, based upon this Paper, but the Council now accepts that the genetically significant dose from radiation from medical sources might rise as high as 100 in countries which make extensive use of these methods for medical and other purposes.

  NUCLEAR TESTS
  Mr. Mossasked the Prime Minister whether he will reconsider his decision not to terminate tests of nuclear devices in view of the fact that it has now been established that deposition of strontium 90 will exceed the level at which immediate consideration is required if tests continue, particularly in countries dependent upon a plant-type diet.
  The Prime Minister: The policy of Her Majesty's Government is to try to negotiate a workable agreement for the stopping of all nuclear tests of all kinds under effective control. I still hope that such an agreement may be reached.
  Mr. Moss: Has the Prime Minister considered what will happen to the level of strontium 90 in bone if tests continue, either under assumption A or assumption B of the Report of the United Nations Scientific Committee, when perhaps under assumption A or B the level will be in excess of 10 units, and in certain circumstances in excess of 100 and even 200 units in certain parts of the world?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. That is why we are so anxious to reach agreement on the stopping of all nuclear tests. The recent interchange of opinions between President Eisenhower, myself and Mr. Khrushchev has marked an encouraging approach to a common point of view. All parties to the Geneva negotiations now seem ready to consider further the idea of a limited quota of inspections, an idea which I put forward some time ago. Meanwhile, I would remind the House that to the best of my knowledge there have been no nuclear tests since the autumn of last year.
  Mr. Bevan: Therefore, if some agreement cannot be reached at Geneva about these tests, it would seem to be wise to keep the conference in permanent session, and then we would not have any more explosions.
  The Prime Minister: I still think that most people would regard complete agreement as the most satisfactory, if we can get it. If we cannot get it, we shall have to consider the situation, but I still think, and recent developments encourage me to believe, that some compromise along

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  the lines I proposed which Mr. Khrushchev accepted, and which President Eisenhower is now prepared to consider, may be worked out during the next few months.
  Mr. Beswickasked the Prime Minister if he will state the number of casualties which have been, or are likely to be, caused by the level of fall-out as now estimated.
  The Prime Minister: If by casualties the hon. Gentleman means direct injuries there is no evidence of any casualties that have yet occurred from the present worldwide levels of general fall-out.
  For further information I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the Report of the United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation.
  Mr. Beswick: But may I refer the Prime Minister to the more recent reports issued by the United States Department of Defence, in which it was said that there was no need for concern about this matter because the number of immediate casualties would be only one in half a million—in other words, 5,000 people immediately affected. Does the Prime Minister accept that figure or not?
  The Prime Minister: Well, Sir, if one reads the report it is clear that there is a possibility of affection, but that figure was given as something like 2,500 to 100,000 major cases in all compared with 700,000 to 3 million cases which are likely to occur every year from natural causes. All these are good reasons to pursue as strongly as we can a policy which will bring these tests to an end.
  Mr. Bevan: But do not these figures finally dispose of the fiction of there being a threshold? If the number of casualties rises with the rising radiation, the conception of a threshold was unforgivably naïve from the very beginning.
  The Prime Minister: I could not accept that, but if the right hon. Gentleman would put down a further question on that point, I will give the most precise Answer my advisers can devise.
  Mr. Beswickasked the Prime Minister to what extent, under the exchange agreement with the United States Atomic Energy Commission, he had been informed before 28th April of the recent estimates made by the Commission of the
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  incidence of bone cancer and leukaemia, details of which have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Uxbridge.
  The Prime Minister: We interchange such data with the United States when they are available. These estimates, however, appear to have been extremely tentative and were qualified by the spokesman himself with the reservation—as in the Report of the United Nations Scientific Committee—that
  "there may of course be no additional cases at all"
  Mr. Beswick: While the Prime Minister may well say that some of us on this side of the House exaggerate these dangers, is it not a fact that he consistently plays them down? Would he not agree that the representative of the United States Atomic Energy Commission to the Joint Sub-Committee of the United States Congress also said that there would be fifty to a hundred additional cases of bone cancer arising from fall-out produced by present tests in each of the next seventy years? Is that what the Prime Minister has in mind when he says that there is no cause for immediate concern?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I do not think that what the hon. Member has said is a fair statement of what I have tried to do in the House, and I do not think that the House as a whole shares his view. I have been asked a very large number of Questions, which I have done my best to answer and for which I have made quite long preparations in order to try to give accurate information to the House. I try to answer such supplementary questions as I feel that I can answer without the danger of misleading hon. Members on very important subjects. I try to put it in its true perspective. That does not mean that I am not as anxious as anybody else in the world to try to bring to an end a system of atmospheric tests which, whether their danger be as great as some think or as little as others think, had much better not take place if we can find—as we are searching for—an international agreement to prevent them.
  Dr. Summerskill: If, under the exchange agreement with the United States Atomic Energy Commission, we were informed that we were near the danger level, what instructions would be given to the public with a view to giving them the maximum protection?
  The Prime Minister: That is a hypothetical question and in such an advanced form that it would require quite a good command of grammar to answer it.

  SPAIN (EUROCHEMIC COMPANY)
  Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Prime Minister how many shares Spain has taken in the Eurochemic Company, an agency of the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation, which is to treat Irradiated fuel chemically to produce plutonium; and how far Great Britain, as a member of the Organisation, agreed to Spain's entry into this company.
  The Prime Minister: I understand that, although Spain has applied to join the Eurochemic Company, she has not yet done so. As an Associate Member of the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation the Spanish Government is, however entitled to accede to the Eurochemic Convention and thereafter to join the Company provided it also becomes a party to the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation Convention on Security Control.
  Mr. Davies: Whilst thanking the Prime Minister for that answer, may I ask him whether he would be able to say that when Spain becomes a member of the Eurochemic Company, as she obviously will, we will then be applying the Common Market principle agreed on 1st January, 1959, when we said that all nuclear materials would move freely without tariffs in the Common Market and would Spain therefore be one of the nations that could receive from Chapel Cross, for instance, plutonium or fissile or other nuclear materials?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I would not like to answer in detail off the cuff. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would put down another Question, or write to me, and I will then provide a complete answer.

  AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT, TURKEY
  Mr. G. Brownasked the Prime Minister whether, in the light of the recent crash in Turkey of a British aeroplane carrying Government equipment to the Woomera Rocket Range, he will cause a
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  review to be made by the Departments concerned of the practice of sending personnel and equipment by this route and in chartered aeroplanes of this type.
  The Prime Minister: The planned route for this flight is an internationally recognised one. The circumstances of the accident are being investigated, and arrangements about the further use of the route will be decided when the results are known. In the meantime another route is being used for these flights.
  Mr. Brown: Does not the Prime Minister think it remarkable that we should be sending just about our most secret equipment in just about the oldest planes we can find, by the most mountainous route, and as close to Russia as we can arrange it? Does he not think that even by the standards of his administration it is a rather remarkable piece of incompetence?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. This route has been covered successfully and is one which is generally recognised. The Tudor aircraft have been in service and have been passed as suitable aircraft. No damage has been done. It has not been possible to recover the material but it has been possible to destroy it.
  Mr. Brown: Yes, Sir, but is not the Prime Minister aware that had it fallen a few miles, comparatively speaking, one way, it would have fallen into the hands of the Soviet Union and we would not have had a chance to destroy it? Secondly, why do we not use Transport Command for this purpose? Why do we charter twenty-year old aeroplanes?
  The Prime Minister: Transport Command is used to carry some of the stores and equipment required at Woomera. It is, however, convenient to use charter aircraft in addition, partly because of the claims upon Transport Command and the need to maintain its flexibility.
  Mr. Gaitskell: But whilst it may be convenient, is it not extremely risky to use charter planes on this route? Would the Prime Minister at least give an undertaking that no further charter planes will be used for this purpose on this route? [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir, I could not give that undertaking, but I will give

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  an undertaking to look most carefully at this matter which, of course, has occupied my attention.

  SPACE RESEARCH
  Mr. de Freitasasked the Prime Minister which Minister is responsible for co-ordinating the work of the Air Ministry, the Ministry of Supply and civilian scientists and civilian engineers concerned with the project for using for research in space missiles developed for the Royal Air Force.
  Mr. Fortasked the Prime Minister if he is yet in a position to make a statement about space research.
  The Prime Minister: There are two problems to be considered in relation to a British contribution to space research; the nature and design of the instruments to be carried into space: and the means by which the containers for these instruments are launched.
  With regard to the first, with the assistance of Fellows of the Royal Society and with the endorsement of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy, a programme for the design and construction of instruments to be carried in earth satellites has been approved. Work will begin at once.
  With regard to the second, there may well be scope for joint action with the United States, with the Commonwealth or with other countries. We therefore plan to send to Washington a team of experts, including Professor H. S. W. Massey, to discuss possible Anglo-American cooperation; and we are also opening consultations with other Commonwealth countries.
  Meanwhile, however, design studies are also being put in hand for the adaptation of the British military rockets which are now under development. This will put us in a position, should we decide to do so, to make an all-British effort.
  I have asked my noble Friend, the Lord President of the Council, in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply and other Ministers concerned, to exercise general supervision of these new developments.
  Mr. de Freitas: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether the cost is
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  about the figure which is being widely discussed, between £10 million and £20 million spread over five years? Can he give us some idea of this, and, if there is to be a project, the nature of the project which the Government have in mind?
  The Prime Minister: No, I cannot give any figure of the cost of using the British rocket should it be decided to do so. What we are doing now is to spend a substantial but modest sum, more in hundreds of thousands than in millions, first for the design of the instruments, which is the first element, and secondly, for making the necessary designs for modifications of the British military rocket should it be decided when the time comes to use it for this purpose.
  Mr. Fort: Now that the project for a satellite is being taken over by the Government, and in view of the lead which the Royal Society has given in this idea in the past, can my right hon. Friend undertake that the Royal Society will be considered on all scientific developments in this field in the future and also that it will be consulted with a view to initiating purely scientific as well as defence work?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, the instruments programme will be supervised by the British National Committee on Space Research set up by the Royal Society and under the chairmanship of Professor Massey.
  Mr. Chetwynd: Is the Prime Minister satisfied that there is intrinsic value in this scientific work or is it just an attempt to keep up with the Joneses?
  The Prime Minister: I am not by nature or, I am afraid, by education very favourably inclined to swallow all that the scientists tell me, because, alas, I do not understand it, but I am impressed by the universal opinion of these very distinguished people whom we have consulted, and I feel certain that in this scientific instrument work it is clear that Britain ought to play her part in this advancing scientific effort. As to the method of launching these instruments, what I felt right to do, and what, I think, the House will think sensible, is to make preliminary work at not very large expense which will put us in a position to use our own rocket Should, when the time comes, we decide to do so.
  Mr. A. Henderson: In view of the great importance of this research work in outer space not only for the benefit of this country but the whole of mankind, would the Prime Minister be prepared to discuss with Mr. Khrushchev the desirability of entering into a system of co-ordination and pooling of information with the Soviet Government?
  The Prime Minister: Yes. I think I would probably at any summit meeting use the appropriate moment to open up this particular line.
  Mr. Grimond: As the development of space rockets and military rockets is intimately connected, will the team of experts which is going to America also be involved in the development of military rockets?
  The Prime Minister: What they are going to America for—and we have discussed this with the Commonwealth and with COSPAR, of Which we are members—is to discuss whether it would be a good idea to have some joint organisation for the actual launching of the container. The instruments we can make on our own. We are quite capable of doing that. That is what we should like to do. We shall also make the adjustments necessary in our own military rocket to use our own propellant to push the container into the upper atmosphere should we decide to do so.
  Mr. Beswick: While I am sure that on emotional grounds we would all like to see a Commonwealth satellite, may I ask whether the Prime Minister is aware that probably the greatest tragedy since the war was when the Soviet Union turned down out of hand the proposals of Bernard Baruch on behalf of the United States for an international atomic energy commission, and does it not appear that we are here missing another great opportunity to have an international effort in cosmic space work?
  The Prime Minister: No. I think that there is a great deal of truth in what the hon. Member said, and that is why I was anxious to keep these possibilities at the moment open—the launching of our own instruments in co-operation with America, or co-operation with the Commonwealth, or through this organisation which is known as COSPAR, which is at any rate of a larger international character.
  Mr. Gaitskell: Has not Mr. Khrushchev already made a proposal for joint action in this field?
  The Prime Minister: I think a good deal of time has elapsed since the moment the right hon. Gentleman refers to. I am asked in this Question what is to be our immediate policy. It seems to be a wise one, to prepare our own instruments and. should we decide to do so, place ourselves in a position to use our own rockets.
  Mr. Gaitskell: While I am not dissenting from the broad approach of the Government in this matter, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he would not consider it desirable to follow up Mr. Khrushchev's suggestion so that we can in this field at least obtain a little international co-operative action?
  The Prime Minister: I will certainly study that, though in that as in everything else it all depends on how we progress. If we make good progress we may get into a good working arrangement with much wider possibilities than seemed possible a few months ago.
  Mr. P. Noel-Baker: Will the right hon. Gentleman study what Mr. Khrushchev said about this in his speech to the Twenty-first Communist Congress in January this year, in which he proposed the total abolition of all nuclear weapons, of all missiles, and international co-operation for the purposes about which my right hon. Friend has just spoken?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, but it is very easy to make these general proposals. What we have been trying for weeks and months to do is to get one, single specific proposal agreed—abolition of the tests under a workable scheme.
  Commander Noble: Would it not be a very good thing in this matter if the Soviet Union agreed to take part in the deliberations of the Committee on Outer Space set up by the United Nations?
  The Prime Minister: Yes. That, of course, is very relevant, because although the Soviet Union is a member of the United Nations it is not at present represented on the United Nations Committee on Outer Space. It would be very easy to get this co-operation if it would join the United Nations body set up for the purpose.

  ATOMIC ENERGY AUTHORITY (TECHNICAL INFORMATION)
  Mr. Kershawasked the Prime Minister what recent directions he has given regarding the supply of technical information by the Atomic Energy Authority to private enterprise research; and whether he will make a statement.
  The Prime Minister: None, Sir. The Atomic Energy Authority has extensive arrangements for collaboration with industry and others on the development of the peaceful uses of atomic energy.
  Mr. Kershaw: is my right hon. Friend aware that there is an impression, rightly or wrongly, that the Atomic Energy Authority is much more willing to give information about its work to the larger consortia than to smaller firms more recently on the field? Can he say whether that impression is well founded or not?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think it is well founded. It is, of course, true that there is certainly no discrimination between firms of different sizes, but, naturally, from ordinary business reasons the Authority does have regard to the resources of the particular firms in deciding whether or not to enter into arrangements for the exchange of information and so forth.

BILL PRESENTED
  PENSIONS (INCREASE)
  Bill to provide for increases of certain pensions, presented by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; supported by Mr. R. A. Butler, Mr. Henry Brooke, Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd, and Mr. Simon read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Thursday and to be printed. [Bill 105.]

SCOTTISH ESTIMATES
Committee of Supply discharged from considering the Estimates set out hereunder and the said Estimates referred to the Scottish Grand Committee:
Class IV, Vote 14, Scottish Education Department;
Class III, Vote 18, Approved Schools, Scotland;
Class V, Vote 12, Exchequer Grants to Local Revenues, Scotland.—[Mr. R. A. Butler.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  FINANCE BILL
  Considered in Committee [Progress, 11th May].
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]

  FINANCE BILL

    Clause 12.—(CHANGES IN RATES OF PURCHASE TAX.)
    3.33 p.m.
    Mr. Harold Wilson: I beg to move, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
    The reason for moving this Motion will be well known to hon. Members who were present for the last hour of the Committee's proceedings last night when I drew attention to the very serious situation which has developed owing to the wording of the Financial Resolution, which, for the first time for ten years, apart from the General Election Budget of 1955, which allowed no debate at all, prevents the Committee from debating the general rates of Purchase Tax.
    I do not want to repeat the arguments used last night, or the quotations of the very fair comments made by the Lord Privy Seal when we discussed this matter on 22nd November, 1955, but I want to draw a distinction between a completely free debate on Purchase Tax, which the Chancellor did not want to have—a Dutch auction, as it has been called; we understand his view and it is not what we are complaining about—and the present position.
    It has been the position in other Finance Bills since the important consultations in 1949 that hon. Members were free to move Amendments to reduce or abolish any group rate of tax. On this occasion, owing to the Financial Resolution, this is, unfortunately, not possible. We believe that the Committee is being denied certain rights. I will not call them traditional rights, because the practice has been in existence for only nine or ten years. Nevertheless, it is being denied a custom which I think has become accepted on both sides of the House and which, I think, the Lord Privy Seal to some extent hallowed with the remarks which he made about it in 1955.
    From what was said last night it is clear that the Chancellor, wittingly or

    1053
    unwittingly—and it was a little difficult from his different speeches to decide whether it was wittingly or unwittingly—introduced a Financial Resolution the purport of which was not noticed by any hon. Member on either side of the Committee, including, probably, the Chancellor himself. I do not know whether he deliberately gagged the Committee in this way, or whether he did not know what he was doing, and I am not sure which is the more charitable interpretation.
    I asked last night whether the Chancellor would consider the question and see whether, within the rules of order, he could put the matter right, perhaps by introducing a new Financial Resolution, on recommittal, before Report, which would enable the Committee to enjoy its usual rights. The Chancellor has, I hope, had a few hours' sleep and a few hours in which to think about this matter and to take advice on it. I am sure that hon. Members are anxious to know whether he can find some way of putting right this action which he took, wittingly or unwittingly.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Derick Heathcoat Amory): We had a fairly full discussion on this problem last night when the Opposition put forward their view that they would have wished to have freedom to propose Amendments to the reductions which the Government have proposed in the group rates of Purchase Tax. I presume that these would have been Amendments for further reductions, because under the present procedure other her Amendments would have been in order.
    I explained that I believed—and I still believe—that there is general acceptance in all parts of the Committee that this year the freedom to debate at any rate individual changes in Purchase Tax should be restricted. My main object in the restrictive Financial Resolution was to avoid opening the way to a wide debate of the nature we had last year on individual changes in respect of particular articles or groups of articles within a group. I think that it was the sense of the Committee that this year such a debate would not be appropriate, although in some years, now and then, at any rate, it is appropriate.
    1054
    I was not aware, and still am not aware, of any understanding reached between the parties that Amendments on group changes of the kind which I have described should always be permitted, but in preparing this Resolution it was not my deliberate object to exclude such considerations and I am sorry that, in effect, while permitting a general debate, the Resolution excludes Amendments for further reductions in the individual rates. When I became aware that that was the effect, I considered that the degree of restriction which was proposed, and which would still permit a general debate, would nevertheless, in the circumstances of this year, be acceptable to the Committee, as hon. Members wished considerable restriction of last year's debating power.
    I have considered whether there is any technical procedure which we could adopt to make discussion of such Amendments in order this year, and I regret that I have had to conclude that at this stage we ought not to change any of the main Budget Resolutions which have been adopted by the House.
    It is, of course, the practice of the House from time to time to add new Resolutions when new proposals are brought forward for discussion which require such a cover, but in the time I have had available to me I have not found a precedent for altering a main Budget Resolution during the course of discussion on the Bill. I suggest that to create such a precedent would not be a course of action that we ought to adopt lightly. If I had been able to find a way of meeting the Opposition's wishes on this matter without doing violence to Resolutions which have already been passed by the Committee, I should have gladly adopted that course. It is not my wish to suppress reasonable discussion.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Is the Chancellor saying that he could not find a precedent? Has he given consideration to the action of the Lord Privy Seal on 12th May, 1952, which was, I think, seven years ago today, when he introduced a "Blue Paper" Amendment, as he called it, to one of the main Resolutions in the Finance Bill so as to enable a debate to he held in Committee the next day?
    Mr. Amory: I am not familiar with the precise details of that occasion, but I

    1055
    understand that there is no precedent in that year, or any other recent year, for a change of this kind which would, in effect, directly negative part of one of these Resolutions.
    I regret my inability to find a course that I could recommend to the Committee to adopt as appropriate, particularly because of the helpful attitude of the Opposition yesterday in facilitating the course of our business. I should be very sorry if any action of mine were to create unnecessary controversy. While I think that we must accept the limitations imposed this year by the Resolution, were it the wish of the Committee to agree on arrangements for the future to ensure that hon. Members will always have the right to propose further reductions on individual rates of Purchase Tax, my right hon. Friends and I would be very glad to endeavour to reach such an understanding.
    Mr. G. R. Mitchison: As I understand, there is no question of Amendments about individual articles. A discussion can take place on the Question, That the Clause stand part of the Bill which will no doubt cover a good deal of the ground which might have been covered by the Amendments made under a different Resolution. The question is whether we ought to have been allowed to discuss the lowering of rates other than the 5 per cent. rate.
    Yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman said:
    "I admit that I did not consider whether the Resolution would have precluded what, in fact, it has precluded."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th May, 1959; Vol. 605, c. 994.]
    The right hon. Gentleman has repeated that today. He went on to say that he thought that it would not be feasible or desirable to alter that Resolution for our discussions this year. He has now said that he agrees that it would be desirable if it could be done, but that it cannot be done.
    3.45 p.m.
    I am not convinced by that reply, for two reasons. First, because I find, at page 799 of Erskine May, that where there is no question of new taxes or charges, as there would not be in this case, an instruction to the Committee to enable it to consider those provisions has been allowed. Secondly, there was the
    1056
    case in 1952—I agree it was a different and rather complicated Resolution—in which in the course of the Committee discussions the Lord Privy Seal introduced some entirely new changes in Purchase Tax.
    On 12th May, 1952, the Lord Privy Seal said that the Government had decided to reduce certain specific rates, which he described. He then said that he could have done it on the spot, according to Budget practice; that is to say, that no Resolution was formally required other than one moved there and then as a "Blue Paper" Amendment in the ordinary course of dealing with Financial Resolutions. But he thought it tidier—I am summarising what the right hon. Gentleman said—to put it on the Notice Paper and so enable it to appear the next day in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    There were in that case, as in this, specific Resolutions about Purchase Tax, and they were entirely new changes. I do not accept the argument that the Resolution to reduce the tax from, let us say, 50 per cent. to 49 per cent. is a contradiction of a Resolution to reduce it to 50 per cent. It seems to me to enlarge the relief offered, and to be substantially the same point. Whether it could have been done by way of an instruction, or whether the precedent I have mentioned is sufficient, or whether I am right in thinking that this does not introduce something quite new and contradictory but is merely an enlargement of the relief that the Chancellor is already giving, it still seems to me that it is impossible to say that this course is quite impracticable.
    Mr. Amory: I am obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman. I think that my main difficulty is the main general Resolution. It struck me that the hon. and learned Gentleman was referring to the other Resolution.
    Mr. Mitchison: I am referring to both. I take it that the right hon. Gentleman means the Resolution at the end of the Resolutions. That would have applied equally to the case in 1952.
    Again, it leaves open the question whether an instruction is not sufficient, and one seems to have been given in 1914 and there is the further question of whether this is any more than an enlargement of the relief given.

    1057
    Although standing in the Committee in a much junior position to the Chancellor, I say with all respect that it seems to me that the right of the Opposition to move for a reduction of taxation is one which ought not lightly to be omitted. If this were done by accident, it was a very regrettable accident indeed. It is the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day, with all the technical advice he has, to make sure that by the form of Financial Resolutions he does not deprive the Opposition of this substantial right. It is not, I agree, a right to discuss. It is a right to move and a right to have a vote. In this instance, if we desired to deal with one of these rates separately we could do so only by moving a Resolution in the exactly opposite sense of what we really intend.
    We have the right, unless we are precluded by Financial Resolutions, to move for the reduction of a rate of Purchase Tax and that is the right which we have been deprived of by the form of the Financial Resolution. This question about the Financial Resolution comes up again and again, not only in connection with the Budget. The same thing happens every time. The Government of the day encroach on the rights of the House. The point is brought home to them. They express repentance and repent temporarily. We all know perfectly well that the root of the matter is that the Treasury, in drafting these Resolutions, tends only too naturally to draft them too tight and to deprive the Committee, and, in particular, the Opposition, of their fundamental constitutional rights. That is exactly what has happened in this case and I regret it profoundly.
    Mr. Donald Wade: As one who was present during the last hour of the Committee's debate last night, I wish to make the point that this subject is one of great interest to the general public. I think it fair to say that the limitation created by the Resolution has come as a surprise to many hon. Members. It would be even more difficult to explain to the general public.
    I understand that if hon. Members wish to propose that the 30 per cent. rate be reduced to, say, 15 per cent., that would be as out of order; but it would be in order to propose that it be increased. It would be difficult to explain to the general
    1058
    public that the only way to advocate a reduction is to propose an increase. Similarly, regarding the 5 per cent. rate, in which I have indicated some interest, by tabling an Amendment, I understand that it would be out of order to propose the abolition of that rate, but that it would be in order to propose that it be decreased to 1 per cent.
    Some articles coming within the 5 per cent. schedule are of such small value that 5 per cent. is scarcely worth while calculating. A great deal of trouble, time and expense is involved for retailers and manufacturers over some items of no great value upon which a tax of 5 per cent, is imposed. It would be no solution to reduce the tax to 1 per cent., but it would be in order to make that proposition, although it would be out of order to propose the abolition of the tax.
    We seem to be in an anomalous position. I should have thought that this was a case where the maxim, "Where there's a will there's a way" might be applied. If that be not so, I hope that this difficulty will be remembered for the future. An unfortunate precedent is being set in making the Resolution so restrictive.
    Mr. Eric Fletcher: Today, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, as he also said last night, that if he thought the Committee desired to express a general view about how Financial Resolutions should be framed in future years, to enable the Committee to have the kind of debate on Purchase Tax which it desired to have, he would be prepared to listen to the views of hon. Members about the future procedure. In saying that, I think that the right hon. Gentleman recognised that the Committee has always taken the view that in these days debates on Purchase Tax represent a major part of our discussions on national taxation.
    I am glad the right hon. Gentleman said that, and in view of the speeches which have been made today and yesterday he will have no doubt that the general view of the Committee is that we should always have the opportunity—this applies not only to hon. Members on this side of the Committee, but to Government supporters as well—to be able to move to reduce whatever rates of Purchase Tax are suggested by the Government. I hope, therefore, that there

    1059
    will be no further argument about this in the future.
    What grieves my right hon. and hon. Friends is that we thought—we had every reason to believe—that this principle had been established in 1955. The debates in that year were quoted by my right hon. Friend, last year. I have here the OFFICIAL REPORT for November, 1955, but I do not propose to quote from it. The Lord Privy Seal, who was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, will remember that we had long debates on this problem. We always assumed—it was never denied—that it had become a matter of policy and accepted by everyone that the Financial Resolutions should always be so drawn as to enable the Opposition or Government supporters to propose further reductions of Purchase Tax.
    The burden of our criticism is that this year there has been a serious departure from the precedents set up then. Having read carefully what the Chancellor said last night and having listened to what he said this afternoon, I am sorry to say that I find he has failed to give a clear and categorical reply to the plain question, put to him by my right hon. Friends the Members for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) and Battersea. North (Mr. Jay), namely: was the Financial Resolution, the last Budget Resolution, drawn in its present form deliberately or inadvertently?
    Before we part with this Motion we must have a clear reply to that question because the honour and integrity of the Chancellor are at stake—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Oh yes. I am sorry to say so, but we have two completely contradictory answers to the simple question: was this Resolution drafted in this form deliberately by the Chancellor, or inadvertently?
    Mr. Amory: I answered that question just now, when I said that it was not my object, by means of this restrictive Resolution, deliberately and specifically to exclude all discussion on these matters.
    Mr. Fletcher: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. I understand that now the Chancellor is saying that the Resolution was drawn up inadvertently—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] I must pursue this matter. Last night the question was raised whether it was drawn in this form deliberately or inadvertently and the Chancellor gave two contradictory
    1060
    answers. He attempted to justify the terms of the Resolution and, by clear implication, if not by expressed words, he took credit for the fact. This is what the right hon. Gentleman said:
    "I thought that would be the degree o. restriction that the Committee would wish for this year … If I had considered that, it would have been possible to have drawn the Resolution slightly less strictly so as to have permitted that to have happened, but I am not convinced even now that the Committee as a whole would have wished for that increased power."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th May, 1959; Vol. 605, c. 989.]
    The Chancellor not only took credit to himself for having drawn the Resolution in such a form to exclude Amendments which we wanted to put down, but he went on to criticise the Opposition for not having noticed the restrictive form of the Resolution at an earlier stage. He went on, further, to justify himself by saying that had the Opposition wished to criticise the Resolution they should have done so either during the debate on the Budget statement or during the Second Reading debate on the Finance Bill. That was the burden of the argument advanced yesterday by the right hon. Gentleman.
    There was no suggestion of apology or regret for the way in which the Resolution had been drawn. Now we must accept what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I understand that now he is telling us that the Resolution was drawn in this way by inadvertence and not deliberately, and I accept that. As was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton, that is the more charitable view to take. But it would have been far better had the Chancellor acknowledged that last night. Then he could have responded to the invitation of my right hon. Friends to vary the Resolution and so enable the Committee to have the kind of debate which hon. Members wished to have.
    The Chancellor cannot have it both ways. We are prepared to accept that the Resolution was drawn up in this way either by inadvertence or carelessness or incompetence—I do not say stupidity. I think probably it was because of guile on the part of Treasury officials which hoodwinked the Chancellor—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] I am not criticising anyone—[HON. MEMBERS: "0h."] I can only attack the Chancellor. The right hon. Gentleman has now taken—
    4.0 p.m.
    Mr. Amory: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will allow me to say that I shall never hesitate to take personal responsibility for any actions that are carried out in my name.
    Mr. Fletcher: I accept that. I am sure that every hon. Member of this Committee would have done the same. One of the difficulties in which the Chancellor is placed is that if he had told us that last night we could have met the situation and have pressed him to cure the defect for which he now admits responsibility. This afternoon, he went out of his way to argue that it is too late to cure the defect, but last night it could have been cured.
    Mr. Amory indicated dissent.
    Mr. Fletcher: The Chancellor shakes his head, but, as my right hon. Friend said, there are precedents for curing it. When the Lord Privy Seal was Chancellor of the Exchequer, he found, in 1954 and 1955, that the House had not been given the fullest opportunity which it wanted, and he proceeded to cure the defect.
    I am very sorry to have to say this to the Chancellor, but what we are complaining about here, I think with justice, is that if the Chancellor had admitted quite candidly last night, as he was invited to do by my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North, that he had made a mistake—and there is no objection to admitting that one has made a mistake; we all make mistakes—he could have taken the natural corollary and, this afternoon, could have introduced, by recommittal or otherwise, a simple Amendment to the final Budget Resolution, so that we in this Committee could have had the opportunity of discussing Amendments to the Purchase Tax, which, as I understand, the Chancellor now recognises we ought to have, which the Lord Privy Seal conceded in 1955 that we should have, and which the Chancellor has been saying we should have.
    Mr. Amory: There is nothing that I know of that was possible last night that is not possible today. There is no distinction in timing.
    Mr. Fletcher: Surely, the position is that my right hon. Friend has moved to report Progress. If the Chancellor is
    1062
    serious in what he is saying, if he now wants us to have the opportunities which we should have had last night, surely his right course is to accept this Motion, so that the Committee may report Progress. He can then put down a new Financial Resolution amending this one, so that we can proceed to discuss what the rates of Purchase Tax should be.
    The reason why we pressed this last night was that, obviously, if the Chancellor had given a reply last night and had made the confession and admission which he had made this afternoon, he would have had last night in which to put down on today's Notice Paper the necessary Financial Resolution so that we could then have proceeded to have a discussion on the Purchase Tax in the way which it is now conceded by everybody that we ought to be able to have. The reason why we complain of what the Chancellor did last night is that he now says that we can still do it, but the only way in which we can do it is by losing a day's progress. If the Chancellor accepts this Motion, he will have the opportunity tomorrow of putting down an Amendment to enable us to do what we want to do and what he now concedes we have the right to do.
    I think that in fairness to every hon. Member of the Committee, as my right hon. Friend said, in a matter of great constitutional importance—because we are all vitally interested in the rates of Purchase Tax, which affect every household to a much greater degree than the level of Income Tax—this question of the various rates of Purchase Tax, in so far as they affect a whole range of goods, should be regarded as of vital importance to every taxpayer. All we are asking for is the basic constitutional right of right hon. and hon. Members of the Committee, in discussing the Finance Bill, to be able to discuss these matters, which we always have done previously regularly and thoroughly. The complaint is that the Chancellor is denying us that opportunity.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I am sure that it is probably the wish of the Committee generally that we should bring this matter to a conclusion as quickly as possible. Having moved this Motion, I should like to say that while, of course, we welcome the fact that the Chancellor is showing a little more contrition today than be did last night, and while we welcome, as

    1063
    far as it goes, his proposal for consultations, which, in effect, will merely bind the hands of his Labour successors, this has been an unhappy and somewhat discreditable episode, which has not been helped by the Chancellor's attempt to ride it off last night.
    Last night, the right hon. Gentleman appeared to be glorying in the fact that he had been so clever. At any rate, that was the impression formed by anyone who heard his speech, as well as that of anyone who has read it today. It may not have been his intention. Today, his line is that he did not know what he was
    doing, and that he would like to put it right. We are not concerned with this particular argument. We are concerned only with the result.
    Whether, as one might have felt last night from his speech, it was bad faith or whether it is, as we now know, incompetence that has caused this, we propose, as a protest and to draw attention to the accepted rights of the Committee to move and press Amendments to reduce taxation, to divide the House on this Motion.
    Question put:—
    The Committee divided:Ayes 203, Noes 249.

    Division No. 105.]

    AYES

    [4.7 p.m.

    Ainsley, J. W.

    Fletcher, Eric

    mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Albu, A. H.

    Forman, J. C.

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

    Allaun. Frank (Salford, E.)

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Mann, Mrs. Jean

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

    Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

    Allen, Scholefield(Crewe)

    George, Lady Megan Lloyd(Car'then)

    Mason, Roy

    Awbery, S. S.

    Gibson, C. W.

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

    Monslow, W.

    Balfour, A.

    Greenwood, Anthony

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

    Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

    Morrison, Rt. Hn. Herbert(Lewis'm, S)

    Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.)

    Grey, C. F.

    Mort, D. L.

    Benson, Sir George

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Moss, R.

    Beswick, Frank

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Moyle, A.

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Grimond, J.

    Mulley, F. W.

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Blyton, W. R.

    Hannan, W.

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Boardman, H.

    Hastings, S.

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.)

    Bonham Carter, Mark

    Hayman, F. H.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

    Orbach, M.

    Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Oswald, T.

    Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

    Hilton, A. V.

    Owen, W. J.

    Bowies, F. G.

    Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

    Paling, Rt. Hn. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Holman, P.

    Parkin, B. T.

    Brockway, A. F.

    Holmes, Horace

    Paton, John

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Holt, A. F.

    Peart, T. F.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Houghton, Douglas

    Pentland, N.

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

    Plummer, Sir Lesile

    Burke, W. A.

    Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Popplewell, E.

    Burton, Miss F. E.

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Prentice, R. E.

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Hunter, A. E.

    Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

    Callaghan, L. J.

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Probert, A. R.

    Carmichael, J.

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Rankin, John

    Castle, Mrs. B. A.

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Redhead, E. C.

    Champion, A. J.

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Reid, William

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    Janner, B.

    Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

    Cliffe, Michael

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

    Jeger, Mrs. Lena(Holbn & St. Pncs, S.)

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Ross, William

    Cronin, J. D.

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Cullen, Mrs. A.

    Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

    Short, E. W.

    Darling, George (Hillsborough)

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

    Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Deer, G.

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Skeffington, A. M.

    de Freitas, Geoffrey

    Lawson, G. M.

    Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

    Delargy, H. J.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

    Diamond, John

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Dodds, N. N.

    Lewis, Arthur

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Lipton, Marcus

    Sparks, J. A.

    Edelman, M.

    Logan, D. G.

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Steele, T.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    McAlister, Mrs. Mary

    Stonehouse, John

    Edwards, Robert (Bliston)

    McCann, J.

    Stones, W. (Consett)

    Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

    MacColl, J. E.

    Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    McInnes, J.

    Stross, Dr. Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    McKay, John (Walisend)

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Fernyhough, E.

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Swingler, S. T.

    Finch, H. J. (Bedwelity)

    Mahon, Simon

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Fitch, A. E. (Wigan)

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Winterbottom, Richard

    Thornton, E.

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Timmons, J.

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Woof, R. E.

    Tomney, F.

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Yates, V. (Ladywood)

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Willey, Frederick

    Usborne, H. C.

    Williams, David (Neath)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Viant, S. P.

    Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

    Mr. J. Taylor and

    Wade, D. W.

    Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

    Mr. G. H. R. Rogers.

    Warbey, W N.

    Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

    NOES

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Gammans, Lady

    McMaster, S. R.

    Aitken, W. T.

    George, J. C. (Pollok)

    Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold(Bromley)

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Gibson-Watt, D.

    Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

    Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

    Glover, D.

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

    Glyn, Col. Richard H.

    Maitland, Cdr.J.F.W.(Horncastle)

    Arbuthnot, John

    Godber, J. B.

    Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

    Armstrong, C. W.

    Goodhart, Philip

    Manningham-Buller, Rt Hn. Sir R.

    Ashton, H.

    Gower, H. R.

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Atkins, H. E.

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E.

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    Grant, Rt. Hon. W. (Woodside)

    Marshall, Douglas

    Baldwin, Sir Archer

    Grant-Ferris, Wg. Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

    Mathew, R.

    Barlow, Sir John

    Green, A.

    Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

    Barter, John

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    Mawby, R. L.

    Batsford, Brian

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr, S. L. C.

    Baxter, Sir Beverley

    Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

    Medlioott, Sir Frank

    Beamish, Col. Tufton

    Gurden, Harold

    Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

    Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

    Morrison, John (Salisbury)

    Biggs-Davison, J. A.

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Bingham, R. M.

    Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

    Nairn, D. L. S.

    Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

    Hay, John

    Neave, Airey

    Bishop, F. P.

    Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Body, R. F.

    Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

    Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

    Henderson, John (Carthcart)

    Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Henderson-Stewart, Sir James

    Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Allan

    Bralne, B. R.

    Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

    Noble, Michael (Argyll)

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Brooke, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

    Oakshott, H. D.

    Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Bryan, P.

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.

    Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

    Hope, Lord John

    Orr, Capt L. P. S.

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Hornby, R. P.

    Orr-Ewing, C. Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Horobin, Sir Ian

    Osborne, C.

    Butler, Rt. Hn.R.A.(Saflron Walden)

    Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

    Page, R. G.

    Campbell, Sir David

    Howard, Hon Greville (St. Ives)

    Partridge, E.

    Carr, Robert

    Howard, John (Test)

    Peel, W. J.

    Carey, Sir Robert

    Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Hutchison, Michael Clark(E'b'gh, S.)

    Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Hutchison, Sir James (Scotstoun)

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

    Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

    Pitman, I. J.

    Cole, Norman

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Pitt, Miss E. M.

    Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Pott, H. P.

    Cooke, Robert

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Cooper, A. E.

    Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam)

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. 0. L.

    Corfield, F. V.

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Ramsden, J. E.

    Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Rawlinson, Peter

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Keegan, D.

    Redmayne, M.

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. 0. E.

    Kerby, Capt. H. B.

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Kerr, Sir Hamilton

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Cunningham, Knox

    Kershaw, J. A.

    Ridsdale, J. E.

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Kimball, M.

    Rippon, A. G. F.

    Dance, J. C. G.

    Kirk, P. M.

    Robertson, Sir David

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Lambton, Viscount

    Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Roper, Sir Harold

    de Ferranti, Basil

    Langford-Holt, J. A.

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Leavey, J. A.

    Russell, R. S.

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

    Leburn, W. G.

    Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

    du Cann, E. D. L.

    Legge Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Sharples, R. C.

    Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T.(Richmond)

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Duncan, Sir James

    Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

    Elliott, R. W (Ne'castle upon Tyne, N.)

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Erroll, F. J.

    Longden, Gilbert

    Speir, R. M.

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Loveys, Walter H.

    Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)

    Fell, A.

    Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Finlay, Graeme

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Fisher, Nigel

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

    Fletcher-Cooke, C.

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Storey, S.

    Forrest, G.

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

    Fort, R.

    Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster)

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Foster, John

    McLean, Neil (Inverness)

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Freeth, Denzil

    MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

    1066

    1067

    Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Vickers, Miss Joan

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

    Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

    Temple, John M.

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

    Wood, Hon. R.

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Wall, Patrick

    Woollam, John Victor

    Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)

    Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

    Yates, William (The Wrekin)

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

    Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

    Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

    Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Webbe, Slr H.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Webster, David

    Colonel J. H. Harrison and

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Whitelaw, W. S. I.

    Mr. Hughes-Young.

    4.15 p.m.
    Mr. Douglas Jay: I beg to move, in page 12, line 33, to leave out "and".
    This Amendment, and some of the consequential Amendments, illustrate the extraordinary position in which the Chancellor placed the Committee by his remarkable blunder, as we now have to accept it to be, over the Financial Resolution. The effect of the Amendments would be to reduce the 5 per cent. rate of Purchase Tax to 1 per cent. That is what we are compelled by this Financial Resolution to move. What we would wish to move and wish to argue is that the 5 per cent. rate should be reduced to nil. It is our view that this 5 per cent. rate should be swept away altogether.
    I agree with the spokesman of the Liberal Party, who intervened just now, that it exposes our debates to derision if we are compelled, in our Amendments, to move something quite different from what we wish to lay before the Committee. However, responsibility for that is upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In this case, there is at least some resemblance between what we wish to argue and what we are compelled to put upon the Notice Paper.
    The 5 per cent. rate of Purchase Tax is perhaps the most important of all the rates because it covers a whole range of clothing, used in its widest sense, including gloves, hats, all footwear and all furniture. All these items, with few exceptions, now bear tax at the rate of 5 per cent. It is surprising that the hon Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) is not here this afternoon to take part in our discussions on any item in the Purchase Tax range at all. The Chancellor of the Exchequer may have some explanation of this absence, but it has not been vouchsafed to me.
    The 5 per cent. tax on these necessary household items amounts to a major tax on the cost of living which keeps the cost of living high. That can be said with
    1068
    more emphasis on this part of the Purchase Tax than on any of the other indirect taxes in our fiscal system. The simple fact is that clothes, boots and shoes are used by everyone. They are consumed not merely by every family, but by every member of every family in the land. They can very markedly be distinguished from beer, on which the Chancellor made a concession for which he takes so much credit.
    We were told by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury that 20 million people consume beer. That would appear to be another way of saying that 30 million people do not consume beer. On the other hand, I do not think that it will be contested that, in the case of clothes, boots and shoes, there are 50 million people in this island who are compelled to purchase and use these items. The first thing that follows from that—this point is relevant to the discussion—is that this Purchase Tax on these necessary household items much more directly affects every old-age pensioner than does any of the other indirect taxes.
    I wonder whether the Chancellor and the Financial Secretary, when they set out to justify their reduction in the beer tax, or the selection of that particular reduction as opposed to any other reduction of taxes, reflected that a very high percentage of the old-age pensioners are women. I believe that the percentage is about two-thirds of the total. It is more than half. I know that at the old-age pensioners' meetings that I go to in my constituency it always appears that at least three-quarters of the audience are women.
    Although it would be quite untrue to say that no women drink beer, it is true that a very high proportion of old women who are old-age pensioners do not get any benefit from that reduction at all. If, instead, the Chancellor had taken the 5 per cent. tax—even though it is not a very heavy one—off clothes and footwear that

    1069
    would have been of direct benefit to every one of those old people, male and female.
    In addition, a tax of this kind, falling directly on primary necessities, also falls more heavily on those with larger families. When we consider this in relation to the whole of our fiscal arrangements which still bear much more hardly on a family with one earner and many dependants than on a single person, it is quite clear that this is a very heavy imposition on those families, in particular on the not very highly-paid wage earner with three or four children who comes off badly in the rest of our fiscal and financial arrangements.
    I know that it is said that we cannot distinguish in these matters between luxuries and necessities because the distinction is becoming more and more blurred and almost everybody now has a motor car and a television set—
    Mr. Ellis Smith: We do not accept that.
    Mr. Jay: I am not accepting it, but, even if we did accept it, even if those things were much more widely spread, nevertheless one does not need an extra motor car and an extra television set for each member of a family. Yet one needs extra clothing and extra boots and shoes and household textiles. That is a very important point which the Chancellor should bear in mind.
    Mr. Douglas Glover: I am sure that the right hon. Member always wants to be fair. On the question of the size of a family, is he not forgetting that most children's clothing is exempt from Purchase Tax?
    Mr. Jay: That is true only in the case of young children, not of all children as it was under the Utility scheme of the Labour Government. Therefore, that is not a sufficient answer.
    This tax on clothing and boots and shoes is regressive in a double sense, first, because it falls on a necessity and tends to be a greater burden on those with the smallest incomes and, secondly, because it falls on every member of a family. I believe that in maintaining this tax on these items the Government are coming nearer towards a general sales tax than in any other part of our fiscal
    1070
    system. Indeed, quite apart from his manoeuvres and contrivances on the Financial Resolution, the Chancellor, by his refusal to make any reduction in the 5 per cent. rate while making reductions in other rates, increases our suspicion that he has it in mind to move steadily towards a general sales tax of an even more regressive kind than the present Purchase Tax.
    It is important to get this clear for the purpose of these arguments. By a sales tax we do not mean a tax falling on the retail stage as opposed to the wholesale stage. I do not think that anyone seriously assumes that there would be any advantage in transferring the present Purchase Tax from the wholesale to the retail stage. What we mean is that instead of falling mainly on the less necessary items, as this has done hitherto, it would fall on a whole range of necessities—what the Paymaster-General once called amenities—at a common level. This retention of the 5 per cent. level increases our suspicion that the Chancellor has it in mind to move steadily towards that kind of tax.
    Let us remember that the great majority of these items we are now considering were wholly exempt from Purchase Tax under the Labour Government, under the Utility scheme.
    Mr. Glover: Oh.
    Mr. Jay: If the hon. Member does not know that, he should learn it now. Under the Utility scheme 75 per cent., 80 per cent., 90 per cent. or even more of clothes, boots and shoes and furniture, on which this tax falls, were exempt.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: And there was guaranteed quality.
    Mr. Jay: And, incidentally, quality was guaranteed as well, but it might not be in order to discuss that on this Amendment. They were certainly exempt from tax.
    Let us be perfectly clear that successive Tory Chancellors since those days have extended the Purchase Tax and put it on all these necessary items which did not bear it before. That is one of the reasons why the hon. Member for Kidderminster reminded us—and would remind us if he had managed to be here this afternoon—that the total revenue being collected in Purchase Tax now amounts to £471

    1071
    million a year, whereas it was under £300 million in the last full year of the Labour Government.
    I do not know whether the Committee quite realises this. The Chancellor told us that he was estimating £60 million, approximately, in Purchase Tax this year, although the amount he is to collect in this financial year is rather less than £30 million less than he collected last year. He collected just under £500 million last year and, after all these reductions, he is to collect £470 million in the present year.
    Finally, in the case not so much of furniture and boots and shoes, but of clothing, I should have thought that there was an additional very strong reason for some relief at present on industrial as opposed to social grounds. No one will question that the textile industries are most acutely depressed at present. We all know the state of the cotton industry, which we have recently debated frequently, and will debate again. Cotton is extremely depressed and, in the opinion of many people, that is partly due to the policy of the present Government. In addition, the woollen industry has been very hard hit by the recent changes in the American tariff and it is feeling the effect of that policy. I should have thought that this would have been a notably appropriate time, for all these reasons, to give some tax relief to these depressed textile industries.
    I wonder whether we could be told, by the Government spokesman, how much Purchase Tax revenue comes under the 5 per cent. heading and, in particular, how much is attributable to textile items? I should imagine that quite a large sum is still being collected in Purchase Tax on these depressed products of the textile industries. In respect of cotton it seems a most extraordinary operation. First, a tax is put on the goods and thereby the level of production is depressed. Then some of the public money so collected is used to pay the industry to contract the capacity made surplus. I should have thought that it would have been far wiser not to collect a tax in the first instance.
    For all these reasons, social, economic, fiscal and the position in the textile industries, there seems the strongest possible case for giving relief to all these main items which are now suffering the 5 per cent. rate. I think that this is one of the
    1072
    first things the Chancellor should have done in the present Budget. He would show a more constructive approach to these things if he accepted our argument and accepted the Amendment now.
    4.30 p.m.
    Mr. Glover: I have rarely listened to so "tendacious" a speech as the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) has just made.
    Mr. Jay: Could the hon. Gentleman make clear what the adjective was that he used?
    Mr. Glover: Tendentious.
    Mr. John Rankin: The hon. Member has changed his mind.
    Mr. Glover: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman does not mind. I may slip again, because certain of my facts in this matter are not as firm as they might be.
    The Utility scheme was done away with just after the Labour Party left office because it was breaking down. It no longer operated successfully or to the advantage of the people. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why? "] Because there was an artificial ceiling for each article. Let us consider, for instance, a woman's dress. [Interruption.] I have been in this trade all my life and I know what I am talking about. When one put a good button on a dress it was immediately pushed into the 25 per cent. Purchase Tax category. If a cheap button was put on the dress it did not pay that rate of tax, but it was not attractive to the woman. That was happening throughout the whole of the fashion trade. It was necessary, therefore, to do away with the Utility Scheme.
    Mr. Jay: That was not what I was arguing. Let us assume for the purpose of this debate that the Utility scheme had to go. The question still remains whether a tax on all those types of goods which had previously been Utility goods should be imposed.
    Mr. Glover: I am coming to that point.
    A tax had to be introduced which would bring in roughly the same amount of revenue on a different basis. The 5 per cent. Purchase Tax was eventually worked out. I know a good deal about this trade and I am not trying to make party points. In a trade like the boot

    1073
    and shoe trade or the clothing trade, in which most of the goods are sold at a fixed retail price—I do not mean a price fixed by the manufacturer or somebody else—the public get the merchandise at almost the same price as they would get it if there were not a 5 per cent. Purchase Tax on it. The manufacturer pares his price by 3d. to get it into the right category and, likewise, the wholesaler pares his price by the same amount. I do not think that the 5 per cent. Purchase Tax makes much difference, if any, to the price at which goods are sold over the counter.
    Everyone wants to see taxes abolished, but I should not like my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to think that because of what I have said I am advocating the permanent continuation of taxation on clothing, boots and shoes. However, in a Budget in which the Chancellor has given away, or, shall we say, not taken from us, a greater sum than in any other Budget in almost living memory, it is asking a lot to ask for the removal of Purchase Tax from clothing, boots and shoes and other items.
    Being a Lancashire Member, I am very concerned that the Lancashire textile industry should receive any benefit from any reduction in taxation that the State can afford, but for the reasons which I have given on the basis of which the retail trade is carried on, I do not believe that the 5 per cent. tax makes any difference to the production of textiles in Lancashire or Yorkshire. For that reason, the right hon. Member for Battersea, North and his hon. Friends have not divided on one of the Budget Resolutions.
    During the debate on the Budget they said that the Chancellor's concessions were, in their view, about right in the total sum given to the public, but if they bring forward an Amendment, the effect of which would be to reduce the revenue by about £30 million more, obviously those two arguments cannot be balanced. If the amount given away so far is about right and if another £30 million is added, then the country's affairs will get out of balance. For those reasons, although I do not like taxes on consumer goods, I should have no difficulty in opposing the Amendment.
    Mrs. Harriet Slater: After listening to the hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Glover) and other
    1074
    hon. Members opposite who spoke during the Budget debate, it makes me more than ever convinced that it pays us on this side to express our opposition on fundamental principles rather than to try to be nice and not vote on major issues.
    Mr. Ede: They want to play rough.
    Mrs. Slater: My right hon. Friend says that hon. Members opposite want to play rough. Perhaps the time will come when we shall have to play rough if we are to let the people know how strongly we feel in these matters.
    I should like first to deal with the 5 per cent. tax on footwear. This includes all footwear for children except for very young children. Fortunately for us, since the war our children have been growing quicker and are bonnier and they take larger shoes than they used to take. The 5 per cent. tax applies, therefore, to more footwear at present than it would have done in pre-war years because the children are bigger and bonnier. Anyone who has a family knows how large a size in shoes young people take these days as compared with when we were children.
    We should do nothing to discourage young people and adults from wearing good footwear. Any tax which makes it difficult for people, whether young or old, to get good footwear is bad. We should do something to remedy the fact that bad feet can he caused through wearing poor footwear. A tax on footwear makes it more difficult for people to buy good shoes. The 5 per cent. tax is especially hard on old people, because a new pair of shoes is not cheap. One has to pay at least £3 10s. before one can get a reasonable pair of shoes for a woman. Therefore, the 5 per cent. tax makes all the difference to old people between whether they buy a new pair of shoes or not.
    I understand that the yield from the tax on footwear is not very large. It brings in about £6.4 million. In 1953–54, it brought in £16 million. That gives some indication how prices of footwear have gone up in the last few years. The tax increases as the price of the commodity increases. When one realises that the Government have made concessions in beer and other things, it seems very mean to continue the 5 per cent. tax on footwear.

    1075
    The tax on clothes is another great factor. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) said, it falls heaviest on people with large families and those with low incomes. While we are proud that our children and young folk look gay and summery, it is an expensive job to change the clothes of the family from winter to summer wear and then back again in the late autumn. The 5 per cent. tax is a burden on those who suffer most.
    The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), the great advocate of reduction of Purchase Tax, who I observe is not here today—
    Mr. H. Wilson: Is it in order to debate Purchase Tax in the absence of the hon. Member for Kidderminster?
    Mrs. Slater: It makes it even worse if where I am told the hon. Member is is correct, because if he feels keenly about Purchase Tax he should be here to talk about it, possibly with new shoes on.
    When the hon. Member for Kidderminster spoke about this recently, he said that it was very difficult for the Government to remove the 5 per cent. tax from clothing because, if they took it off a woman's woollen dress at 30s., they would have to take it off a Christian Dior dress at 200 guineas. I am not concerned with the woman who pays 200 guineas for a dress. I have a very strong feeling that she would be much better doing a job of work than having the opportunity and facilities always to be buying a 200 guineas dress to wear.
    I am concerned about the woman with the young and growing family and the young folks who want to look respectable and make the best of themselves. I am concerned especially with the elderly lady who wants to buy herself a new coat and frock, perhaps new bedding also and a new easy chair to sit on in her old age. It is those people about whom my right hon. and hon. Friends and myself are concerned. It is not funny or something to laugh about. It is a serious matter that we should put a tax of 5 per cent. on the clothing of those folks who need it most. If the Chancellor finds it difficult to do something about the 5 per cent. on the clothes which those people buy because he would have to take 5 per cent. off dresses costing 200 guineas, let
    1076
    him think out a scheme whereby he may stop at a certain figure, if necessary, and thus benefit those in the lower income group and the older people.
    Included in the items subject to 5 per cent. Purchase Tax is furniture. It is always the same people who are affected by this kind of indirect taxation. It is always the same group of our working people. It is the elderly, the woman with the growing family, the young people who perhaps are paying their board for the first time and are having to find out how to buy their own clothes, and the people in the lower income groups. When we consider the incidence of the 5 per cent. Purchase Tax on furniture, it is the same group of people struggling perhaps to buy their house and their furniture so that they can make their home decent to start with.
    When I was married a 5 per cent. Purchase Tax on furniture would not have been a very large amount of money, but the cost of a bedroom suite and almost every item of essential furniture has more than trebled and is sometimes five times as much as it was years ago. These people must have a bed. They must have something in their dining room. They need an easy chair to sit on. The amount of Purchase Tax which they pay is considerable when it is reckoned up on the large items of furniture which they need.
    The first reason why I support the Amendment is that I think that taxation of this kind is unjust and unnecessary, as this year the Government are very proud that they are able to give away large sums of money to certain groups of people. My second reason is that Purchase Tax affects those people whose need is greatest. I travelled down in a train on Monday with a good friend of the Government who said that one thing about the Budget was that it was a Tory Budget, because it had helped the friends of the Tory Government. This is a situation where the Tory Government could help some of those people whose need is great. The Government could be doing a decent job of work instead of handing out money on beer and tax relief for the higher income groups.
    Mr. A. E. Cooper: Whilst listening to the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent,

    1077
    North (Mrs. Slater), I began to wonder if I was at a sort of mad hatter's tea party. One would imagine that the five per cent. impost was all the difference in the world between prosperity and abject poverty. Nothing could be further from the truth. I assert without the slightest possibility of argument from right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite that this country today is better shod, better clothed and better housed than at any time in its history.
    4.45 p.m.
    It may have escaped the notice of the hon. Lady that in the past few days there have been elections up and down the country which have demonstrated the considerable confidence of the electorate of this country in the way in which affairs generally have been managed by the Conservative Party. We should not lose sight of that.
    We can all find powerful arguments against every tax. We can find powerful arguments against Income Tax, Surtax, Schedule A and death duties. There are very powerful social arguments why none of the many taxes we have in this country should exist. But they have to exist. We have a Welfare State. We have a very extensive system of social services which has to be financed. Money must be found in one form or another. We must judge whether the method of obtaining the revenue is fair and is not retrograde in certain aspects. No one can possibly argue in this day and age that a 5 per cent. is regressive or in any way harmful to the general body of people.
    The hon. Lady talked about furniture. The impression she left the Committee with was that there was just one section of the community that bought furniture.
    Mrs. Slater: No.
    Mr. Cooper: Or that just one income group bought furniture.
    Furniture is bought by everybody, and Purchase Tax is paid by everybody. There is one difference which the hon. Lady did not mention. The person with a low income and perhaps with several children, having family allowances, may well be exempt from all forms of Income Tax, hut the person with a higher income, who still has to pay Purchase Tax, also has to pay substantial amounts in Income Tax and probably Surtax. Therefore, it
    1078
    is essential that we should keep in some sort of perspective not only the taxes which one section of the populace pays, but also the benefits which some sections of the community have.
    Mr. H. Wilson: In order to put this matter into perspective, as the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) puts it, is it not also worth recalling that in the Budget there have been very substantial reductions in Income Tax for the income groups to which the hon. Member refers? As a result of the Purchase Tax concessions as well, those groups gain far more per head in Purchase Tax reductions than the kind of families about which my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mrs. Slater) was talking.
    Mr. Cooper: No one will attempt to deny that. It is obvious that if taxation is increased people with higher incomes will pay more tax. Equally, if taxation is reduced people earning more will pay less tax. No one can dispute that simple fact. No one has so far devised any system whereby that immutable fact can be altered.
    Mr. Wilson: Surely the hon. Member will recall that the first Budget of this Parliament, in the autumn of 1955, for which I think the hon. Member voted, twisted the distribution of tax revenue against the lower income groups by "the pots and pans" Budget. This tax, instead of wiping out the iniquities of "the pots and pans" Budget, twists the tax concessions in the opposite direction.
    Mr. Cooper: The right hon. Member is eloquent on so many subjects and knowledgeable on so few. If the right hon. Gentleman would be good enough to look back to "the pots and pans" Budget debate in 1955 he will find that on this subject of the pots and pans item I abstained from voting, for a quite different reason which I will explain to the right hon. Gentleman, if he will listen.
    During the ten years that I have been in the House, I have taken the view that the policies pursued by various Chancellors since the war of increasing taxation to cure inflation have been wrong. That is the correct method only if one controls every facet of the economy, including wages, and that has never been the case since the end of the war. That being so, it seemed to me that to increase taxation—by Purchase Tax increases or any

    1079
    others—would simply mean a reduction in the general standards of the ordinary people who, through their trade unions, would then call for higher wages, so giving another twist to the inflationary spiral. It was for that reason that I abstained from voting in the "pots and pans" Budget of 1955.
    For precisely the same reasons, I supported my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) in 1957 when he took steps to cut off the supply of money which, if one does not control every facet of the economy, is the only way to stop inflation. I submit that over the last eighteen months that policy has been proved to be absolutely right.
    We now have to consider whether this 5 per cent. tax is harmful. If it can be shown to be harmful to ordinary people my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General has a case to answer. However, I do not think that that is so, because I again assert that, as a nation, we are better shod, better housed, better clothed and better fed now than at any time in our history. To me, that seems the conclusive reason for rejecting the Amendment.
    Mr. J. Grimond: We may be, in fact we are, better shod, better clothed and better housed, but I cannot believe that that is the fault of the Treasury. I thought that the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) was agreeably tendentious—as I think all speeches ought to be, and as that of his hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Glover) also was. I am not sure, however, that he tended in the right direction, because his main theme was that so long as the red-hot needle is only small and only makes you jump a little it does not matter if you are already on the rack and also having your eyes torn out with a red-hot poker.
    Even before the era of the present Chancellors, there has been a demon in the Treasury who believes that the country should be composed of unmarried people living in sin, without children if possible, but if they have any children they should be stark naked; all living in the most primitive houses, without furniture and washing very old clothes in very old washtubs. To the Treasury, married life in the ordinary sense seems to be a luxurious, almost degrading pastime.
    1080
    Purchase Tax is an example of this attitude. They tax marriage. They tax the housewife who tries to equip her house decently, and, except in the case of the smallest children, they also tax children's clothing—
    The Paymaster-General (Mr. Reginald Maudling): I must say I am rather surprised that the hon. Gentleman should think that the Treasury's ideal community is one in which no one is taxed.
    Mr. Grimond: If the Treasury's policy is to tax all things that they think are fundamental and necessary, that is a new conception of their economics. There are arguments for it. It is one that would certainly bring a fresh and welcome breath of new ideas into our economic debates.
    If I am thought to be eccentric in believing that married life is normal and to be encouraged and that wives should want to have children and see them nicely clothed. I would point out that Professor Cairncross says that continual taxation of the tools of the housewife's trade is bad and symptomatic. It is symptomatic of an odd attitude of the Treasury which we should do our best to exorcise.
    Purchase Tax has obvious disadvantages. It puts up the cost of living and leads to extreme anomalies. Again, I think we should fight against the argument that when one puts on a tax that is full of anomalies and difficulties, it cannot be taken off, in spite of that, because if it is taken off one thing it will have to come off something else. That is really cutting off one's nose to spite one's face and demonstrates the folly of the tax. If one cannot remove it from ordinary coats without having to remove it from Dior fur coats, that alone brands it as a bad tax.
    The Government may say that money has to be raised, and that everyone wants to see Income Tax down, petrol tax down—and now Purchase Tax down—and that it is not fun being the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I agree with that. But to begin with, we could do something about reducing Government expenditure—but that is said in parenthesis, and perhaps I should be out of order to pursue it; but that is the first thing to look at.
    Purchase Tax was put on during the war to curb consumption. It was not strongly commended before the war as a

    1081
    means of raising revenue. It was put on as a war-time measure to curb consumption. Have we looked at other possibilities if we want now to raise revenue? I take the word of the Chancellor—up to a point—and the word of the PaymasterGeneral—up to a point—when they say that a sales tax that would cover a much larger range of commodities is impossible, or at least administratively difficult. That was as one possibility that seemed to have attractions because it seemed to get rid of the anomalies.
    There have been suggestions of a tax on expenditure in various forms, and there is a good deal to be said for such suggestions if we want an indirect tax of this kind at all. There are various other things that seem to have slipped through the taxation system. There are land values, for example—an old friend of the Liberal Party. I certainly do not want to tax children's sweets, but no confectionery bears any tax. It is queer that we should tax children's clothing but let through a lot of things that I would have thought were no more essential than clothing. I do not want more taxes: but if the Government do, the base of our present tax system is narrow. Our tares are full of anomalies and should be reviewed.
    This is a most anomalous tax. While I agree that 5 per cent. may not be very heavy, it is a symptom of the chaos into which I would say a lot of our taxation system is slipping. It falls on families with young children, on those who find it most difficult to make ends meet. Bearing in mind the state of the cotton industry at present, there is a great deal to be be said for examining the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) that whatever we do this year, we really should not consider Purchase Tax as being a permanent feature of our economy and thus keeping even a small tax—sometimes difficult to collect—on necessities of this kind at a time when we are trying to help the industries that make them.
    Mr. Michael Cliffe: The hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Glover) said that he had had a lifetime's experience of textiles, or of the clothing trade, and that for that reason he could not support this Amendment. On the other hand, I have here a document which, if I may, I shall read
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    in a moment. It is the case submitted by practically every association connected with the manufacture of clothing, and this is one of the very few occasions on which I can say that my own organisation, the National Union of Tailors and Garment Workers, is marching in step with the manufacturers' associations.
    5.0 p.m.
    The document was submitted to the Chancellor by the various associations and says:
    "On 22nd January, 1959, in company with the other clothing manufacturers' associations, comprising the Joint Standing Committee of Clothing Manufacturers' Associations, a letter was addressed…urging that Purchase Tax be removed from clothing at the earliest possible date."
    It gives these reasons:

    "(a) Clothing is in a different category from most other classes of taxable goods. First, it is a basic essential; second, it is an expendable item requiring frequent replacing, and third, it is subject to seasonal considerations.

    (b) Trading conditions throughout the clothing and textile industries have for some time been extremely difficult. That is shown by the official statistics of retail sales, numbers employed in the industry and short-time working.

    (c) The steps so far taken by the Government in recent months to stimulate the national economy are helping some sections of industry but not the clothing industry. Indeed, official statistics show that consumer spending is being diverted to the products of other industries. In addition, hire purchase commitments have already mortgaged a substantial proportion of consumer spending power for the future, to the detriment of the clothing industry. The exemption of clothing from Purchase Tax would give a stimulus to the clothing and textile industries and help to offset this undesirable trend not only because of the direct effect it would have on retail prices of clothing but also because of the psychological effect on the public.

    (d) No relief in taxation could be more widespread over the whole community than the removal of Purchase Tax from clothing."—

    I think that is very true
    "The figures of consumer spending in 1958 show an increase in cars and motor cycles and other durable goods of £145 million, as compared with 1957, whereas the expenditure on clothing, other than footwear, decreased by £1 million. Further, from figures published by the Board of Trade it would appear that from the end of January, 1958, to the end of January, 1959, hire purchase and other credit instalments outstanding increased by £135 million, mainly in the last few months, following the withdrawal of the credit restrictions. I interpret these figures, whilst appreciating that they cannot be entirely related one to the other as indicating that a large section of the public

    1083
    have been spending and committing themselves to the limit of their marginal buying power in acquiring consumer durable goods, motor cars and the like.
    I feel that the proposed reductions in Purchase Tax on these same goods will again attract buying powers to them to the detriment of the textile and clothing industries, industries which suffered considerably by the credit restrictions when they were imposed and which have not recovered. I hope the Chancellor will reconsider his proposals, and I urge Purchase Tax relief for the textile and clothing industries.
    Earlier removal of Purchase Tax from fabrics has been proved in practice not to have been sufficient; it should be followed through by taking off Purchase Tax from clothing."
    That is a resolution coming not only from the National Union of Tailor and Garment Workers but from practically 80 per cent. of the clothing manufacturers in this country, and if the hon. Member for Ormskirk, who represents a Lancashire division, cannot give any support to our Amendment, I say that he is not facing any of the realities of the situation and the extent to which people are suffering as a result of this 5 per cent. tax which is being imposed.
    Concerning the Utility scheme, I am convinced that the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) knows nothing about Utility if he dares to say that it was rubbish. I have worked in the clothing industry nearly all my life, and I was extremely proud when the Utility scheme was introduced, firstly, because it controlled the texture itself and, secondly, because it controlled its manufacture. That was insisted upon. It was only in the later stages of the Utility scheme that clothing became shoddy; but the people responsible for that were not the workers and certainly not some of the people connected with the industry even on the other side.
    I can say that the Utility scheme was something really worth while. When it was introduced by Sir Kingsley Wood, he stated that it was to try to stop the possibilities of an inflationary trend which was beginning to arise at that time. Nevertheless, it continued tax-free from 1942 to 1952, when we had the introduction of the D-scheme.
    While the D-scheme took in a much wider range of goods, it did, in fact, leave out lower-priced goods which did not reach the category of the D-scheme itself.
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    We are continually talking about people being much better dressed and fed these days. People of my age and older are beginning to talk about how much better off they are than they were in the past and how much better the standard of living is today. Goodness help this country if we had not made any improvements at all during the last fifty years. That not only applies to this country but to other countries as well. Coloured people are still fighting for better conditions, and I hope that they get them. That is the trend in the world today, and it is utterly unnecessary repeatedly to say that we are living better—of course, we are.
    Let us not forget when talking in terms of more cars, better homes and everything else that there are in this country, if we take the figures of the number of people in civil employment at 23½ million, of which roughly 18,100,000 are taxpayers, some 6 million people not paying Income Tax. The only reason they are not paying it is because they are not earning sufficient money to pay it. No doubt many of these 6 million people have family responsibilities. Since the Budget of 1958, I would say very definitely that they have been faced, in addition with having to meet this continuing 5 per cent., with rent increases and increases in the price of bread, milk and other commodities. That means that the difficulties for that section of the public have become even greater.
    There was a surplus of £365 million. In my constituency, the two leading industries are those of clothing and furniture, and I am told by the manufacturers in those industries that they are left completely nonplussed by the fact that the furniture and clothing industries have been left completely out. Purchase Tax relief has been given to the motor car industry, even when customers are having to wait from one to four months to get any make of car in this country, and the motor car manufacturers have their order books full of export orders which they cannot complete. Why that should be necessary, I cannot understand. If I were in a position to buy a car for £1,000 I do not think that it would stop me buying it if I had to pay £30 or £40 more; but for the man who is not earning much, a penny or twopence on a garment is a serious matter.
    These are the people whom the Chancellor has completely ignored. I can say

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    from a reliable source that the £38 million which is got by way of this 5 per cent. tax does not in fact represent £38 million. Assuming the wholesale price is 100s. or £5 as submitted to the retailer and bears tax of 5s., the consumer has to pay on top of that whatever the market price is. That means that the £38 million can be £57 million for the consumers, in relation to the 5 per cent.
    I hope that in the interest of the clothing and textile industries and in the interest of that section of the community which has had no assistance at all as the result of the £365 million surplus which has been distributed, this burden will be taken off them.
    Mr. F. A. Burden: I must declare an interest in this matter because I am a clothing manufacturer. I feel that the point is being rather heavily laboured. I have made inquiries from many buyers in big departmental stores in order to try to get this whole question of the tax on clothing put into true perspective. I have done so because I have the opportunity to go to the fountainhead.
    So far, I have not met anyone dealing in the retailing of clothing who states that the 5 per cent. Purchase Tax is acting as a drag on sales, and that if it were removed there would be an immediate stimulus in sales. What does it amount to? If an article is sold at 12 guineas in a store—I give this figure, but it applies up and down the scale—it bears an average of 8s. Purchase Tax.
    It is not true that all firms include their mark-up on the Purchase Tax. Indeed, because of the increased competition, it is a fact that the firms that have done so, or who tend to do so, are finding that they are priced out of the market. If this argument were true, then, of course, I would accept it willingly, because it would affect me and the sales that I make as well. If a person is paying 12 guineas for an article in a shop he is not going to ask whether that article bears 8s. Purchase Tax and, if it does, refuse to buy it. That 8s. is not going to make a difference on any large scale between a sale and a non-sale.
    Mr. Cliffe: The prices of certain commodities such as motor cars are shown exclusive of Purchase Tax. The price of
    1086
    the car is given and the amount of Purchase Tax involved is also stated. It is shown as a separate item. As far as clothing is concerned, I have yet to see where the two things are itemised as far as the consumer is concerned.
    Mr. Burden: That is perfectly true. I do not understand why many people who are engaged in the sale of clothing, and, indeed, hon. Gentlemen opposite who are arguing this matter, should say or imply that it is wrong to reduce Purchase Tax on articles that pay as much as 33 and 66 per cent. and that instead an article which carries 5 per cent.—and that 5 per cent. really has very little effect on its sale—should have its Purchase Tax reduced whilst criticism is levelled at the reduction of Purchase Tax on articles which are paying the very much higher levels of tax. Because of the very considerable sums of money involved a restriction is imposed on the sale of the higher priced goods by the very size of the Purchase Tax that each article carries.
    I really think that hon. Gentlemen opposite and anyone who may have sectional interests must try to get this matter into perspective. If indeed a 5 per cent. tax on clothing is a drag on sales to the extent argued by the hon. Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury (Mr. Cliffe), then there can be no possible excuse for arguing in the same breath for raising Purchase Tax on articles carrying as much as 30 per cent. Purchase Tax. If there is a drag on sales of an article carrying 5 per cent. Purchase Tax, there must be a much bigger restriction on sale of articles which carry a very much higher rate of tax. That, in turn, must affect employment and turnover in these industries.
    I thought that the hon. Member for Shored itch and Finsbury made heavy weather in going back to the war days or the immediate post-war period when we had the Utility scheme and the D-scheme. The hon. Gentleman said, and I would agree with him—indeed, I think everyone would—that it would he a very sad state of affairs for this country if we had not increased our standard of living in the last years. I believe that in the clothing industry very considerable progress has been made in the value now given and in the selection that presents itself. That has taken place certainly since this Government have been in power.
    5.15 p.m.
    Mr. Cliffe: I raised the point of the Utility scheme in answer to the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper), who dared to say that Utility clothing was rubbish. I say that at no time in the history of this country has the general public had better value for money.
    Mr. Burden: As a clothing manufacturer, I would completely disagree with the hon. Gentleman on that point. I would say emphatically that the public today has better value in the field of clothes than it has ever had in the history of the country. Good though the Utility scheme was at the time, and although I think that it effected a very useful purpose, it certainly made it possible for the least efficient manufacturers to make a profit and to be prosperous. Today many of the manufacturers who were prosperous under the Utility scheme are finding it extremely difficult and heavy going in the competition that exists today—the demand for good styling, for good fabrics and make and for keen prices and good production.
    I have always felt, and I have expressed myself on the subject on many occasions, that Purchase Tax is altogether a bad tax because, whether it be 2½ per cent., 5 per cent., 25 per cent., 30 per cent. or whatever the rate may be, when imposed on the cost price it artificially inflates the prime cost of the commodity. I think that is a bad thing and not only as regards clothes.
    An improved standard of life is something which we all want to see. The changing pattern today is such that people in all walks of life are taking into their homes and in their every day life new commodities, new machinery and comforts, and a luxury today becomes an essential of tomorrow. That is a very good thing. Therefore, I think that we must look at the whole field of Purchase Tax on that broad basis. I would like to see the higher rates of tax dropped as quickly as possible in order that the people who cannot afford many of the desirable articles available today which carry a high rate of tax may be able to buy them. The present Government have done much towards that.
    Mr. Jay rose—
    Mr. Burden: I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman in a moment.
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    The present Government have done considerably more than the party opposite did because in 1951 the Labour Government raised all rates of Purchase Tax. If those rates are compared with those under the present Government, the public will be able to see exactly how much has been done by my party.
    Mr. Jay: As the hon. Gentleman is so keen to get down the higher rates of tax, has he tried putting Amendments on the Notice Paper to that effect?
    Mr. Burden: Whenever I have spoken on these subjects, I have tried to bring whatever pressure I could on this matter. It is extraordinary that the right hon. Gentleman should have such care for the public today, when in 1951 he and his colleagues took the opportunity to raise the rates of Purchase Tax to the heights which they reached at that time.
    Mr. Jay: Does not the hon. Gentleman remember that, in spite of the difficulties, in that Budget many household items were completely exempted from tax?
    Mr. Burden: Pins, pastry boards and the like, but, equally, the standard rate of Income Tax was raised by 6d. and the complete range of Purchase Tax rates was raised. I have no doubt that the public would rather have Purchase Tax rates on pastry boards, pins and needles remain high and not have to pay a higher rate on the many articles on which the tax was imposed by hon. Gentlemen opposite.
    Mr. Frank Beswick: If we are to discuss what happened in 1951, we have an extremely good example of why this tax is wrong this year. In 1951, there were reasons for increasing taxation and those reasons were supported by hon. Gentlemen opposite. There were increases in defence expenditure for which hon. Gentlemen opposite had asked. That expenditure had to be met by taxation, and when that taxation was applied, it was applied fairly over the whole range of indirect and direct taxpayers.
    Our criticism this year is precisely that there is no need to find increased revenue and that we are giving revenue away and cutting down taxation and that, despite that easement in the revenue situation, this tax on essentials is still maintained. The best I can say for the hon. Gentleman the Member for Gillingham (Mr.

    1089
    Burden) is that he was more plausible than some of his hon. Friends who earlier tried to justify this tax.
    One of the most extraordinary speeches we had came from the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper), who said that he abstained from supporting the Government in 1955 when some of the Purchase Tax rates were applied, but that he would nevertheless support the Government today although the Government are refusing to take off that taxation even though our economic situation had improved. The only explanation of the hon. Gentleman's activity which I can see is that in 1955 he abstained from supporting the Government two months after the Election, whereas we are now probably two months before an Election.
    I agree with what the hon. Member for Gillingham said about the necessity to keep this Purchase Tax rate in perspective. I agree with him that there are some people, some of his customers, who can apparently afford a dress at 12 guineas or 15 guineas and who will not be prevented from purchasing a dress merely because the Purchase Tax on it increases the price by 8s. However, not everyone in the country is in the position of his customers and able to buy a dress at 12 or 15 guineas.
    Mr. Burden: It might interest the hon. Gentleman to know that it has been estimated that prices in the wholesale clothing trade dropped last year by 5 per cent., which would wipe out any incidence of tax for this year.
    Mr. Beswick: We know that that is because the primary producers of wool and cotton have been getting less for the raw materials. It does not in any way offset the argument which I am about to make. I accept what the hon. Gentleman said about some of his customers being able to afford the cost of 5 per cent. tax on garments such as those he mentioned. Some of those people will have received far more than 8s. or 10s. by way of rebate in direct taxation. There are many people in the country who will have a reduction in Income Tax liability of £100, £200, £300 or £400 a year. In such cases, they do not mind paying an extra 8s. or 10s. for a frock.
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    It is our case that there are many people who have not had an Income Tax reduction at all, that there are many who are so far down the economic scale that they do not have any liability for direct taxation. It is precisely those people whom the Government are now hitting by the retention of this Purchase Tax rate.
    One of the most extraordinary arguments from the other side of the Committee was that Purchase Tax was justified because some people who pay Purchase Tax would not otherwise pay any taxation. These days, anyone who does not pay any direct tax has a very low income. It is a fact that in this year we are taxing people who would have been exempt from paying Income Tax in 1938—if one makes an adjustment for changes in money values. The level at which direct taxation is paid is lower than it has ever been.
    Yet the argument is that those with incomes below that level, and it is virtually the subsistence level, must be caught in another way, with Purchase Tax. I cannot accept that argument. It is further argued that Purchase Tax is not regressive. I should have thought that that argument was so absurd as not to be worth putting before the Committee. A widow living on a widow's pension and who has to buy an electric light bulb pays precisely the same amount of tax as the wealthiest person in the land. In those circumstances, how can it be said that Purchase Tax is not regressive? Of course it is.
    It is noticeable that during the whole course of the Budgets which we have had from Conservative Administrations the burden of taxation has been changed year by year from the direct taxpayer to the indirect taxpayer. There has been a lot of juggling with tax rates and from time to time we have been told of reductions. But the amount collected by Purchase Tax has gone up. I cannot go into the details on this Amendment, although I intend to refer to it later.
    It is the fact that the amount collected by Purchase Tax has gone up each year since the present Government came to power. Another surprising fact is that within the total yield of Purchase Tax, the amount collected from essentials as compared with less essential things has also increased. I put a Question to the

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    Chancellor the other day seeking information on this point and the right hon. Gentleman admitted that, whereas in 1957–58 the amount collected in this 5 per cent. bracket was £51 million, in 1958–59 it was £53½ million, while this year the estimated yield is £55 million.
    The explanation I was given was that the amount from this group had increased because included in it were now articles which had previously been in a group subject to a higher rate of Purchase Tax. The argument was that we were admittedly taking more on the 5 per cent. group, but less on the 10 per cent. and 15 per cent. groups.
    I took the trouble to check that and I found that it was not so. It is the fact that the amount collected on the 5 per cent. group has gone up. The amount collected from the 15 per cent. group also has gone up in the last two years. If one looks at the 30 per cent. rate, the amount there has increased. The groups from which the yield is now less are those on which taxation is levelled at the highest rates. The yield there has gone down, but of course, but it was precisely in those groups bearing the higher rate of tax that articles which were less essential for the ordinary housewife were placed.
    5.30 p.m.
    Mr. Burden: if that argument is correct, the hon. Gentleman must agree that it destroys the points which have been made because, if the Purchase Tax yield on clothing in the 5 per cent. range has gone up considerably, without taking into consideration other groups which have dropped within it, that shows that, despite the tax, more and more people are buying and the volume of trade has increased.
    Mr. Beswick: It shows that the Government are taking more by indirect taxation than they were before. The total amount is more, and within that total they are taking rather less from the luxury items and rather more from the essential items. That is the fact. It is a trend which we ought to stop.
    It has been said that we could not afford to do without the income yielded from this tax. Of course, if it were in order, one might go on to argue whether it was absolutely necessary to reduce the
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    standard rate of Income Tax by 9d. instead of 6d. There were other ways of getting the same amount of money. When the hon. Member for Gillingham asks me whether I really think that it was causing any harm to put a 5 per cent. tax on a piece of clothing, I reply to him with another question. Did it really do any good and was it really essential, to reduce the tax on a motor car by £100 or £150? Was it really essential for the economy of our country that the Surtax payer should be relieved of tax to the tune of £300 or £400 a year? I do not think that it was good for the economy. It was not essential for the economy that those reductions should take place. The benefit to the individual housewife or consumer would have been much greater if this 5 per cent. Purchase Tax had been wiped out altogether. At this time, with our economic situation easier, the country ought to have been able to afford it.
    Mrs. Mary McAlister: At the risk of being accused of repetition, which, if the truth be told, I do not myself like very much, I wish to say a few words about the 5 per cent. Purchase Tax. Most of us know—at least, I think I know—that the Chancellor is a humane man. But I wonder whether he is out of touch with the realities of life in certain parts of the country. There is no doubt that in many areas north of the Border unemployment and short time are quite serious, to put it no higher. Five per cent. on essential articles of clothing is a quite serious matter for the housewife. She is less interested in what has come to be known as the cost-of-living index than in the actual cost of living. Perhaps she is rather simple and she does not see any connection between the two. It is certain that very often she does not.
    Textiles are not the basis of our economy in Scotland. At least, they are not the basis of our economy in Glasgow. We depend and have always depended very much on heavy industry. This was one of the reasons why we ran into the great slump of the 'twenties. The heavy industries are not in such good shape in Glasgow, and the Chancellor and hon. Members opposite must know very well that 5 per cent. can be quite a serious matter for the woman who is struggling with children. Only very small children

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    are exempt from the incidence of the tax. It is no exaggeration to say that it is a matter of importance, and I am surprised to hear hon. Members speak very coolly about it as though it did not matter very much.
    As for the difficulty of removing the tax—the great difficulty in removing the tax from mink coats or suits at 100 guineas—that is plain poppycock. I hope that I am using Parliamentary language. Surely, it is not out with the imagination of the Treasury to evolve a method whereby luxury goods could be taxed, if necessary, and necessities should not have to bear 5 per cent. or any tax at all. I plead with the Chancellor again to take off the 5 per cent. Purchase Tax.
    Mr. John Cronin: The fact that the Chancellor has purposely retained the 5 per cent. Purchase Tax indicates the true nature of his Budget. The Budget is intended to be a marginal voter's harvest festival rather than an attempt to help the people with low incomes. One should try to make taxation as progressive as possible, in other words, to make sure that taxes are paid mostly by people with large incomes who can more easily pay them, but in the Purchase Tax we retain this regressive form of taxation particularly in its incidence on necessities. The 5 per cent. Purchase Tax is really a form of poll tax which is comparable in iniquity with the increased National Insurance contribution which was imposed last year.
    The Government have adopted an extraordinary policy of redistribution of wealth in the course of the last few Budgets. The constant tendency has been to increase the purchasing power of the well-to-do and decrease the purchasing power of those with lower incomes. The first social priorities of which the average person thinks are, in this order, food, rent, clothing and furniture. Food was dealt with long ago by the abolition of food subsidies. Rent has been dealt with by the Rent Act. Now we have the retention of the 5 per cent. tax on clothing, footwear and furniture, all of which are necessities. I hope that the Paymaster-General will not use the argument that the Government recognise that these things are necessities by their graduation of the Purchase Tax scale. The same argument would be used for a tax on bread if one made a tax small enough.
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    The Chancellor suggested that the reduction of the duty on beer would cause a substantial decrease in the cost of living. We have before us now a much more suitable opportunity to reduce the cost of living and to do it, by and large, in a more even way throughout the whole community. A particularly unfortunate feature of the Purchase Tax is the way the burden becomes more severe with the progress of inflation. My right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) said earlier that there had been an increase in the Purchase Tax yield from £300 million to £417 million in the last few years. This is an indication of how the burden has become more and more severe with the progress of inflation and, naturally, more severe on the people who have to pay the Purchase Tax on necessities. The Chancellor ought to realise that now is a particularly appropriate time to abolish the 5 per cent. Purchase Tax because the people who are suffering most today suffer also from short time, reduced overtime and unemployment. There could be no more appropriate occasion for reducing the tax.
    The clothing and footwear tax, obviously, will bear very heavily on families and children. It has a very unfortunate effect on old and sick people who have to wear rather more clothes than others. It will have a continuous, disagreeable effect on the textile industries which are undergoing special difficulties today, particularly in face of competition from abroad.
    The Chancellor's reduction of the higher rates of tax seems to me to be singularly inappropriate at present compared with this particular rate, because the higher rates are largely taxes on consumer durables. They tend to be bought once and not again for a considerable time, whereas clothing must be bought every year and a reduction in tax would have a continuous beneficial effect on industry.
    The 5 per cent. tax on furniture and fabrics seems to me to be particularly disastrous to people who are setting up homes. I do not know why the Government have such a malignant attitude towards young people who get married and set up homes. They are the last people to have any consideration from the Government. Nobody has mentioned

    1095
    the effect on the hotel industry, the progress of which has a considerable and helpful effect on our balance of payments as more and more visitors come. A reduction of tax on furniture and fabrics could be particularly helpful to the hotel industry.
    The furniture trade, which is substantially affected by this tax, has been going through difficulties for several years. It has had certain intrinsic difficulties in that it has high costs for transport, freight and packing. It has been having a rough time from competition from abroad. It would be of particular assistance if it had help from the Chancellor in his Budget.
    I suggest, therefore, that the Chancellor should have further thoughts on this matter and should try to help us, certainly in the Budget, by abolishing the 5 per cent, tax. We do not want the right hon. Gentleman to have the reputation, which he is fast acquiring, of being a sort of inverted Mr. Micawber and always waiting for something to turn down.
    Mrs. Alice Cullen: I want to add my support for the Amendment to abolish the 5 per cent. tax on clothing, boots, shoes and essential furniture. As a grandmother with grandchildren who are on the verge of being married, I know that it is very difficult for these children to have the essential pieces of furniture to set up a home. It is not good enough to say, a s some people say, that hire purchase is the answer. To me, hire purchase only makes things worse.
    On clothing, we all know that the same tax is carried on expensive clothing, but the folks who can afford expensive clothing can afford to pay the tax. Consider, for example, children's boots and shoes. Between the inferior quality of leather and the tax, the mothers are at their wits' end in trying to keep their children shod. My own daughters have shown me shoes for which they paid 35s. and £2 a pair for children aged nine and ten, but the inferior leather does not last a month and it carries a 5 per cent. tax.
    Those are the things I wanted to say to the Chancellor. The Government have a habit of fixing taxes on the people who can least afford them. The people of whom I am speaking can least afford them. I hope that the Chancellor will have second thoughts and abolish this 5
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    per cent. tax in the interests of the ordinary people who do not have the means to get the essential items that are taxed.
    5.45 p.m.
    Dr. Barnett Stross: Listening to this afternoon's discussion, the arguments for the abolition of the tax seem to fall in two directions. In the first, it would be a logical and proper thing to assist Lancashire, which has fallen on hard times. Secondly, it would assist millions of homes in which the impact is of consequence although the rate of the tax is only 5 per cent.
    I ask the Chancellor to consider a narrow point, but one which will particularly interest my hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann). Yesterday afternoon I received a communication from the British Medical Association asking me to intervene and try to persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer at least to consider a new situation which has arisen with reference to inflammable clothing. At present, inflammable clothing and non-inflammable clothing are both treated alike and they both have to sustain Purchase Tax at 5 per cent. The Science Committee of the British Medical Association says that on examining the problem it is disappointed to find that the Chancellor has not found it possible to make any distinction in the Finance Bill between these two types of clothing.
    The Science Committee states that a new British Standard, B.S.3121, was recently introduced concerning flame-resistant fabrics. Regulations have been tabled by the Government as from yesterday making it an offence to offer for sale flameproof fabrics which do not conform to this new British Standard. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie, who has fought a long battle and brought this matter to the attention of the House of Commons and of the country on so many occasions, will be glad that we are now moving in this direction.
    Mrs. Jean Mann: May I say that I lost the battle, because the highly inflammable material is not to be marked at all? Only the safe material will be marked.
    Dr. Stross: I hope that my hon. Friend is wrong in saying that she has lost the

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    battle. Knowing how persistent she is, and will continue to be, I am sure that she will ultimately achieve success.
    My hon. Friend has an ally, the Science Committee of the British Medical Association, which says firmly that it is quite wrong that, as my hon. Friend has just pointed out, any fabric which is potentially so dangerous should not be marked so that people may be warned. The Science Committee says that it is, perhaps, asking too much for manufacturers to be compelled to label their products "dangerous". The hon. Lady and myself, and, I think, all of us, would be content to see a dangerous fabric labeled "dangerous", for these fabrics have been essentially the cause of many deaths and severe burns among children.
    It is astonishing to the British Medical Association to find that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his advisers have not found time to give thought to this tiny fragment of legislation, which would cost the Government very little—hardly anything that can be computed—when it would be easy for them to make a gesture and say to the public, "If you buy this stuff, which is guaranteed by a new British Standard not to carry with it the risk of burning your children if they go near an unguarded flame, we will recognise it by making it free of Purchase Tax." T hone that the Chancellor will consider this point.
    The Committee which has written to me is very fair. It admits that at the present stage of manufacture some of the fabrics are a little ungainly in appearance. That is a weakness that we gladly offer and admit, but it does not mean that for so very little cost the Government cannot come forward, after all the work which has been done by way of propaganda, to save men, women and particularly children from being injured and burnt, sometimes to death, in the home. I do not know why the Government do not come forward and say, "We agree with this venture. Now that a new British Standard has been evolved and we have brought in the Regulations, we will take off the 5 per cent." I hope that whoever replies to this discussion will tell me what answer I may send tomorrow to the Science Committee of the British Medical Association, which will be most interested to hear whether the Government really
    1098
    will take preventive action on this important issue.
    Mr. Rankin: I should like to look at the effects of this tax from one of its narrower aspects. My name, along with the names of some of my hon. Friends, is associated with an Amendment which asks that industrial clothing shall be exempted from the tax. Perhaps that will recall to the Chancellor that we debated this aspect of the matter particularly last year and voted on it. This year, however, we are somewhat limited through no clear desire on the Chancellor's part, as he has already told us.
    I want to refer particularly to the position of the dockers. Their attitude has now become a national one. The point of view which I expressed last year is largely endorsed by the dockers in all the ports of Scotland, England and Northern Ireland. The dockers' attitude is fortified by decisions already taken by the Government. The Government have accepted the idea that certain workers employed in certain jobs should have protective clothing. They have granted that part of the argument and have gone on to say that it is wrong that when men must wear protective clothing it should be taxed. They have said that in respect of the miners, the quarry workers, the foundry workers and the moulders. I ask the right hon. Gentleman today to say that of the dockers too.
    When the Paymaster-General replied to the debate last year he rested his case largely on two points. If I misinterpret what he said I am sure that he will correct me, but my recollection is that he adopted the argument, which has been so largely employed in the course of this debate, that, after all, 8d. in the does not matter a great deal. That, of course, depends on the circumstances. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Kelvingrove (Mrs. McAlister) has taken the opportunity of reminding the right hon. Gentleman and his Front Bench colleagues that 8d. in the £ might mean a good deal in certain circumstances. She and I and certain other hon. Members think particularly of Glasgow.
    Last Wednesday at a very interesting demonstration in London I had the privilege of meeting some of the shipbuilders in my area. They are really worried about the position of shipbuilding in the West of Scotland and particularly in the

    1099
    port of Glasgow. They were not so worried some months ago, but they took the opportunity of telling me that things were now really difficult. If anything goes wrong with shipbuilding in the city, one out of every eight workers in Glasgow will be prejudiced in his employment. That is a fact of tremendous significance. If that should happen, 8d. in the £ on the price of an article would mean a good deal. I hope, therefore, that in the general aspect the Chancellor will keep that in mind.
    I do not, however, want to argue so much from the point of view of the mere cost. This is a question of whether it is right or wrong that we should say to men who are engaged in certain occupations that they require protective clothing, that employers should so inform them, and the Government encourage them, and then that the Government should tax the men on those clothes. It is very difficult to put forward that argument, and the Government have already refused to put it forward in respect of certain categories of industrial workers. Why select the dockers in Glasgow and others of our great cities for this type of preferential mistreatment? I hope that we shall have some defence of what is, from my point of view, an indefensible attitude.
    Another matter which the Paymaster-General mentioned when he replied on that previous occasion was the difficulty of definition. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman recollects that argument. It was said that if we took the tax off this type of protective clothing we would not know whether or not the men were wearing the clothes when they were not at work. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has had the opportunity of coming within the reach of a foul cargo when it is being unloaded from a ship. That type of job is difficult and dangerous and men are often overpowered in the course of it. It is as a result of that type of work that they contract that lingering, incapacitating trouble called dermatitis. They get it because they are not protected. If they are protected they are taxed by the Government on the protective clothing which they wear to save them from the debilitating effect of that disease.
    I hope that when the Paymaster-General replies to the debate he will not pursue that argument and say that we
    1100
    cannot define the type of clothing because, after working on a foul cargo all days, the men might walk about the streets in those clothes. The Paymaster-General knows perfectly well that it would not happen. The same applies to those men who have to deal with a ship when it is in port over the long weekend, the scalers and the trimmers, the men who clean the bilges, the boilers and the tubes, which is perhaps one of the dirtiest type of jobs in which men can be engaged. They need protective clothing and they wear it, but they should not be taxed on it. I hope that the Paymaster-General will not say that it is difficult to define that clothing and that the trimmers and the scalers might move about the streets of their native city still wearing that type of clothing after being engaged in that sort of work.
    6.0 p.m.
    Neither of the arguments put up by the Minister a year ago is sustained. Certainly the one on price cannot be fairly applied because the element of price is not the argument. The argument is whether or not it is right that protective clothing should be taxed. Having said that it is wrong that it should be taxed in certain cases, and for certain garments, I am asking the Government to take the next step and include those who work in docks within the category of workers who are already exempt. It is logical and fair to do so, and I do not think that the question of definition is one that should present any difficulty to the Paymaster-General if he has thought about the matter during the intervening year. I say that because men just will not wear away from the docks the type of protective clothing which they must wear when handling certain types of cargo.
    Another aspect is that of the docker who has to handle clean cargoes, such as butter, fruit and other foodstuffs coming into our country. In my view on those occasions he should not be handling such cargoes in the clothing he would have used to handle other types of cargo. So he should be encouraged, to wear that type of clothing which the employer should be encouraged to provide, but if we are to do that, I suggest that it is necessary and fair to both employer and employees that it should be free of tax.
    I hope that the Paymaster-General will be replying to the debate. Maybe he

    1101
    will not do so after he has heard my argument, but will try to "pass the buck" to one of his colleagues, who can say that he knows nothing about what the Paymaster-General said last year, and will try to engage on a different line of defence. I do not know what it could be. I see only two arguments against the proposition and neither is sustainable, so I hope that whoever replies will admit the justice of our case and will remove this tax.
    Mrs. Mann: I am glad to have such strong support for the removal of Purchase Tax from certain clothing, and I particularly appreciate the source from which it comes. So far, we have achieved nothing, except labels on articles that will not burst into flame within three minutes, even with a Bunsen burner under them. Surgeons are strongly behind the drive to achieve labelling for danger. In fact, all the support has come from the surgeons in our hospitals who deal with these cases, including my own sons, and the pediatricians are sending resolutions about their work at the receiving end of these tragedies.
    I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) in getting into the debate on that aspect of home safety. I had intended to ask that the Crayleigh safety device should be free of tax. It is now, I believe, in the 5 per cent. group. Scalds are not so terrible in their result as burning clothing, hut, nevertheless, they are tragic, accompanied by intense pain, and they give great anxiety to parents who may watch their child grasping a handle and pulling the pot over. These are common accidents, yet the young man who received the inventor's award of £200 from the B.B.C. for his invention has not had the encouragement he deserves. I believe that this device is now on sale in the gas showrooms of Great Britain. I know that Cliff Michelmore sets great store by it and that he objects to Purchase Tax on it, as do many others. I have pleaded for the removal of Purchase Tax time and again on this device. As it has now been reduced to 4s. 11d., I hope that it will be removed entirely.
    Another safety device is children's reins with or without 'harness attached. Do right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite think that children's reins are a toy and something to be taxed?
    1102
    They cannot have watched their own youngsters run to an unguarded fire, or out into the garden, or out of the front, door, or accompanying "mum" wheeling a pram with another youngster at her side. Children's reins are indispensable as a safety measure to any young mother. So I ask the Front Bench to put children's reins into the not-chargeable group, in which I notice that safety belts come first. That being so, why not put children's reins into the same group?
    I am astonished when I look at the groups which are exempt. I see sewing thread and mending and knitting wool. Of course, we introduced exemption for these items. Then there are sewing and darning needles, knitting needles, bodkins, crochet hooks, pins, thimbles, finger shields for needlework and tape measures. They are all exempted to give the housewife a little boost. There is no tax for the woman who believes in do-it-yourself.
    Now I find that the following are subject to tax: dress shields and shoulder pads, buckles, clasps and slides of the kinds used as dress accessories—the very things which should not be subject to tax. Then there are buttons and button moulds of the types suitable for covering by hand. Next come trouser pockets. What is the idea of making those subject to tax? Was the idea engendered by right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench opposite who wished to prevent their wives examining their trouser pockets?
    After all, a thrifty woman who wants her husband's suit to last as long as possible will look at it inside and outside. Often she will find a hole in the pocket or that the seam has given way. It is useful, therefore, to be able to buy a new pocket in a shop, apart from the fact that sometimes this makes a reasonable excuse for looking in a pocket! If a trouser pocket is not a dress accessory, it is at least an accessory for repairing men's suits. It is all a part of keeping down inflation.
    Then I find the Chancellor actually imposing a tax on ladies' modesty vests—
    Dr. Stross: Shame.
    Mrs. Mann: —and a nightdress top. To look at the Chancellor one would never for a moment imagine that he would single out modesty vests or nightdress tops bought by ladies. He does not

    1103
    look like a Jayne Mansfield or Marilyn Monroe "fan" at all, but, of course, appearances are always deceptive.
    Then we come to expanding braces and shoulder supports. Surely, shoulder supports are very near to being surgical supports and very necessary indeed to some people. I would ask that shoulder supports and these other items I have mentioned should come into the not chargeable category. It is surely only a reasonable request that the Chancellor should drop the 5 per cent. tax and include them in the not chargeable group.
    Mrs. Lena Jeger: I want to make one or two points very briefly. The Treasury does not seem to be in a very generous mood today, but I would ask right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite at least to consider Purchase Tax on children's clothing again. At present, the exemption applies to small children's clothing, but there is ample evidence, and we are glad to know of it, that children are getting bigger and heavier art a younger and younger age. This makes very serious problems for families in the lower income groups.
    I am thinking particularly of families who have such small incomes that they are paying no Income Tax at all, and therefore have benefited nothing from the Budget proposals affecting that tax, and who are faced with increasing expenditure as their children grow bigger. Take, for instance, a widowed mother with two children, and Whose gross income, including family allowances, is £4 10s. a week. It is £4 10s. a week whatever the size of the children. All hon. Members will realise that it costs very much more to clothe adolescent children than it does to clothe toddlers, for not only do they grow quickly but they are much harder on their clothes. It would be a very real help to thousands of families if the Chancellor could apply the exemption from the tax to the larger sizes of clothing, so that more and more parents with children who are reaching adolescence and staying at school would benefit in a small way.
    It has been said in this debate already that, on the whole, our children are better shod and better clothed today. I
    1104
    should hope so. I am very glad to know that this is so, but it must be borne in mind that this good is achieved very often by very real sacrifices on the part of the parents. It is not always easy for parents in a low income group to decide between buying one of the children a new pair of shoes or replacing some essential item of household equipment, on which Purchase Tax is also payable.
    6.15 p.m.
    There is another group in the community to whom I would refer specially. I think that they have been rather neglected today. That is the group of the unmarried women who go out to work and who try to maintain their own homes. The average earnings of women in manual work, according to the Monthly Digest of Statistics, are only 67s. 4d. a week. I think that we have been talking today as though 5 per cent. on the range of goods we have been discussing does not represent very much of a problem to people setting out to make their purchases, but we must realise that for people with low incomes, of whom there are so many, the cumulative effect of an odd shilling of cost imposed here and there bears heavily indeed, and these things subject to tax are needed in the home or for wear.
    We must bear in mind that if the figure which I have mentioned is that of the average earnings by these people, there must be many among them earning even less than that. These are people who have benefited not at all from the Budget, which has been so generous in so many ways. Moreover, they pay the full rate of National Insurance contributions, just as do other people who are getting very high incomes, and the people on the low incomes do particularly notice the small increases on essential goods, increases which many hon. Members may think can be absorbed without stress.
    I hope that the Government will at least give an undertaking that they will look into this matter again, especially the question of children's clothing, in view of the fact, about which we are glad but for which they like to claim the credit, that children are growing bigger and heavier.
    Mr. Mitchison: Shoes have a special claim to consideration because they have such an intimate and close connection

    1105
    with the Table from which I am speaking. They are at present subject to a tax of 5 per cent.
    As the Economic Secretary observed just now, in Kettering and in neighbouring parts of Northamptonshire the difficulty at present is the rising price of leather. It is due to many things. The Argentinians, for reasons of their own, they being one of the main sources of supply, are killing about 25 per cent. fewer cattle than previously. Demand in the States is rising again. It is leather I am talking about, particularly hides.
    In addition to that, there have been some large-scale and spasmodic purchases by Russia and other countries. In the result, hides and leather in general are rising in price, and the shoe industry will have to face either shoes of worse leather or higher prices for shoes. In addition to that, substitutes are being used to a considerable extent, some of them rather satisfactory, but they, too, put the tanners into difficulties, and they do not really relieve the problem of shoemakers.
    The present position in Kettering I would describe in this way. Some of the smaller firms there and in the neighbouring districts are in real difficulty. Some have had to close. Others, larger firms I am thinking of now, are on the margin. As usual, it is the manufacturing firms most closely connected with the retail shops which are managing to carry the difficulties best, but I think that I may fairly describe the whole trade as being very shaky and uncertain. I would not say that there is unemployment, but there is already too much recourse to the guaranteed week in the trade, and the signs are threatening.
    In those circumstances, small though it is, the 5 per cent. duty makes a very great deal of difference, and all I desire to put to the Government is that if they persist in this tax, it may have the effect of toppling over the brink a section of the trade which would otherwise have survived. It may have that effect for the reasons I have given, and particularly on account of the difficulties in the supply and cost of leather.
    Mr. Maudling: We have had a long, interesting and wide-ranging debate on this important Amendment, and I will do my best to do justice to the various arguments which have been made. Broadly speaking, the Committee has been discussing
    1106
    an Amendment dealing with a general rate, the 5 per cent. rate on clothing, furniture and a few other items. One or two hon. Members, the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross), raised particular items. I should probably go beyond the rules of order if I dealt with the proposition that individual items mentioned in the speeches of those hon. Members and of the hon. Lady the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mrs. Mann) should or should not be exempted from tax.
    I say, in reply to the hon. Member for Govan, that the argument on the general question of protective clothing remains exactly the same this year as last, and the difficulty of distinguishing has in no way changed in the past twelve months. Most of what the hon. Member said about flame-proof fabrics, although extremely interesting, was not exactly relevant to a Finance Bill and was more a matter for the Board of Trade or the Ministry of Health, and no doubt the Ministers concerned will take close note of what he said.
    In general, the debate has been on an Amendment formally seeking to reduce the lowest rate of Purchase Tax from 5 per cent. to 1 per cent., but, as the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) made clear, the true purpose is that the whole rate should be abolished.
    There was a good deal of talk about children's clothing. Some of the things said were a little misleading, because one or two hon. Gentlemen, and even the right hon. Gentleman himself, talked of the effect of this tax on large families with very young children. As I am advised, the facts are that the exemption of children's garments is based on size, and the size is estimated to be such, roughly speaking, as to correspond with the size of a normal child of about 14.
    It was argued by the hon. Lady the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Mrs. Slater) and by the hon. Lady the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. L. Jeger) that the average size of our children had been increasing. That is possibly some tribute to the Governments under which that has been taking place. No doubt the Customs and Excise will be glad to examine any evidence on that matter.

    1107
    However, I can see difficulties arising. I cannot claim, like the hon. Lady the Member for Gorbals (Mrs. Cullen), to be a grandmother, but I have to provide the footwear for four children and I know a little about their cost. I noticed that when my son reached the age of 14 he was already able to wear my shoes. Thus, if we raised the criterion for the size of children's clothing to such an extent as to meet the needs of all children of 14, we would exempt all footwear. It is very difficult if there is a special exemption for children not to draw the line at a point at which it will exclude some children. I agree that these detailed matters should be studied, but it should be recorded that the general bulk of children's footwear is and is intended to be free of this 5 per cent. tax.
    The next point is the weight of the tax. It is 5 per cent. of wholesale value which, roughly speaking, is 8d. in the £ on retail value. Several of my hon. Friends, including my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden) and my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper), pointed out that the effect on the purchaser of a garment, the effect on someone's decision whether to buy an overcoat, was not likely to be very great if the total effect of the tax was equivalent only to roughly 8d. in the £.
    In comparing it with other things on which people spend their money one should bear in mind the effect of the tax on the industries concerned. The hon. Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury (Mr. Cliffe) talked of the textile trade, and the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) naturally referred to the shoe industry. It is true that the tax is 5 per cent., but the tax on beer, which has been mentioned several times, is equivalent to 150 per cent.
    The hon Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury referred to the tendency of consumers to shift their expenditure from clothing to other things, such as television sets and refrigerators. These and other things to which they are shifting expenditure are subject to much higher rates of tax than are clothing and textiles. To that extent, the competitive position of clothing is quite good. As my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Glover) and others said, the effect of the
    1108
    tax upon the prospects of the industries concerned is very small, in fact, negligible. It was certainly my impression, when we discussed this matter last year, that it was generally accepted in the Committee that the removal of a tax equivalent to 8d. in the £ retail value would not have any noticeable effect on the level of sales of textiles, footwear and other things.
    Thirdly, there is the cost of this proposal. If the total amount of the 5 per cent. duty were to be remitted, it would cost £55 million in the current year, as the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Beswick) said. The right hon. Member for Battersea, North asked about clothing and I think that he will find that the figure for clothing and footwear alone is just under £40 million of the total of £55 million. This is a very large sum, even within the context of the present year.
    I should say this to the Opposition quite frankly at this stage. They have agreed with us that the total tax remissions in the Budget are about as much as it is safe to make. Therefore, if they wish to advocate large additional tax remissions, they should say where the money is to come from. One or two hon. Members opposite, including the right hon. Gentleman himself, answered this question not directly, but by implication, by referring to beer, for example. I think that the Committee and the country would treat that argument with more respect if the party opposite had the political courage to oppose the reduction in the beer duty. As they have not opposed that reduction, it is very difficult for them now to say that we should not have reduced the beer duty, but instead, should have reduced this tax. They cannot escape from that dilemma.
    The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), the Leader of the Liberal Party, in a rather gay speech, took a slightly different point of view. As far as I could judge, he was for abolishing Purchase Tax altogether, although I do not know where he would find the £471 million. He had one or two very nice ideas which we shall study with great interest, and I hope that those ideas for additional taxation will find their place in the Liberal Party election manifesto, although I doubt it.
    Mr. Grimond: I raise no objection to a tax on luxuries, although there is a

    1109
    case for exempting some of those things which no one pretends to be luxuries, and in those cases where there are quite appalling anomalies in the lower ranges of Purchase Tax. That is a perfectly reasonable point of view and I think that the Government would be well advised to look into that.
    Mr. Maudling: The point is whether those suggestions will appear in the Liberal Party manifesto. The question is whether the hon. Gentleman knows.
    The hon. Gentleman produced the extraordinary argument that he was toying with the idea of a sales tax. To suggest a sales tax on the very Amendment on which he opposes a sales tax seems to me to be very odd indeed. If the hon. Member is in favour of a sales tax, he should be opposing and not supporting the Amendment. Of course, perhaps he was. I was not quite sure.
    The basic argument for the Amendment which has been running through the speeches of hon. Members opposite has been that we should not tax necessities. That has been the fundamental argument and I want now to deal with it. The first answer is that it is by no means the case that all the items subject to the tax are necessities. It is true that everyone must have a certain amount of clothing, but it is not true that one can deduce from that that all clothing is a necessity—far from it. The argument has been made on many occasions that one can draw a distinction between necessary clothing and luxury clothing.
    6.30 p.m.
    I was very interested to hear the hon. Lady the Member for Glasgow, Kelvin-grove (Mrs. McAlister), the hon. Lady the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North, the hon. Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury and other hon. Members say that we are harking back to the old days of the Utility and D-schemes. The logic of their arguments was that one must go back to some scheme of differential taxation for the textile and clothing industries. If that is the policy of the party opposite, we should know. If they want to go back to the Utility and D-schemes and to the differentials between luxury and necessity, they should say so. If they do not want to do that they cannot treat all the items under this Amendment as necessarily being necessities. They are far from it.
    Mrs. Slater: May I correct the right hon. Gentleman and say that I did not hark back to the Utility scheme? Is not the whole point of my hon. Friend mentioning it that people were guaranteed at least a certain quality at a certain price without a tax being added? That was the only reason why it was mentioned.
    Mr. Maudling: I apologise to the hon. Lady if I misinterpreted what she said. but she seems now to be harking back to the advantages of the Utility scheme. Do hon. Members opposite wish to see clothing taxed at separate and different rates? If they do, they can make the point that some articles are necessary and some are luxuries. If they want the same rate, they cannot argue that all the things subject to that rate are necessities.
    In modern conditions one cannot raise al the revenue necessary by taxing luxuries. I think that it was the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland who referred to Purchase Tax as being a wartime tax, but it has long been recognised as a major source of revenue, and it will continue to be so as far ahead as one can clearly see at present. In those circumstances I do not think that it would be possible to raise the revenue necessary for services in this country by concentrating on luxuries.
    Mr. Beswick: The right hon. Gentleman keeps asking what we should do. What is the argument in favour of reducing Purchase Tax on motor cars or reducing Surtax at a time when we cannot afford to take tax off footwear?
    Mr. Maudling: The arguments for reducing Purchase Tax on the ranges on which it has been reduced have been made fully in the course of the Budget debate. The point is that in modern conditions one cannot expect to get all the revenue needed in this country from luxuries alone.
    The next point is whether one wishes to have a steeply graduated form of Purchase Tax, or a less steeply graduated form. I think that this is where the difference of principle rests. We believe, as my right hon. Friend made clear both last year and this, that a large number of rates with large disparities between them give rise to many difficulties. There are the anomalies that we constantly hear of from absent friends—and I am informed

    1111
    that my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) is absent because of an engagement made a long time ago—if the rates are too wide.
    We have seen the difficulties that arise for the holders of tax-paid stocks. Time and again we have seen the damage done to the quality of goods in this country if one insists on putting too much of a burden on certain articles at particularly high rates of tax. For these reasons we believe that a steeply graduated form of Purchase Tax is not in the national interest. It has been our policy, both last year and this year, to give trades a widely spread tax at moderate rates. It has not been our aim to move to a flat rate of Purchase Tax. That has never been the declared policy of my right hon. Friend. What he has said is that he wishes to see the tax spread at a moderate rate over a wide range of articles. We believe that to be the best way of continuing the imposition of a tax to which the country looks for the raising of large sums of revenue.
    Because the Amendment would cost £55 million and we have not been told where the money would come from if this tax were abolished, and because it would be contrary to the attitude adopted by my right hon. Friend towards Purchase Tax, I must advise the Committee to reject the Amendment.
    Mr. Jay: The Paymaster-General made some rather tendentious remarks. He argued that we cannot propose reliefs of something of the order of £40 million to £50 million because we have not said where we would obtain the alternative revenue. We have made that perfectly clear at every stage of the Budget debates. We do not believe that the Income Tax reduction which the Chancellor made need have extended to company profits, either distributed or undistributed, in addition to the concessions made on the investment allowance.
    If the Paymaster-General adds up the relief in revenue from the 9 per cent. reduction in the standard rate of distributed and undistributed company profits he will find that it is at least £1 million a year. It is no good him asking why we did not vote against the Budget Resolution, because he knows that the Resolution is in the form of a 9d. reduction in the standard rate and it is not
    1112
    possible to vote against that part which falls on personal incomes separately from that part which falls on company profits. There is nothing in that argument.
    Mr. Maudling: Why did not the party opposite vote against the reduction in the tax on beer yesterday?
    Mr. Jay: Because, strangely enough, and if the Paymaster-General had listened he would know, we are saying that the relief to company profits, not the reduction in the tax on beer, need never have been given. There is no more in that argument.
    The argument advanced against the Amendment is extraordinarily weak. The Paymaster-General said it was extremely difficult to differentiate between shoes for children of 14 and shoes for their parents, and that may be so. He also said that it would be difficult to differentiate between the less expensive and the more expensive clothes and that we do not want to go back to the difficulties of the Utility scheme. I am not disagreeing with that, but, if that is true, it is exactly the argument for the Amendment, that is to say, for sweeping away the 5 per cent. tax on all these commodities.
    It was rather significant that two or three hon. Members opposite who welcomed the reduction in Income Tax in the Budget opposed this relief of tax on necessities that we have proposed. The hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Cooper) who is now absent—and the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) —really used a most extraordinary argument. The hon. Member for Ilford, South said that we are all better off than we ever were before and that, therefore, there is no need for this reduction in tax. Is the hon. Member really telling us that as the standard of living rises higher and higher we shall have to pay more and more taxation? Is that the view and the prospect which the Tory Party is holding out to the country? If that is not the case, and if the hon. Member thinks that it is right to make a reduction in Income Tax at a time when he says the country is better off, I do not see how he can advance that as a reason for not making a reduction in Purchase Tax.
    Mr. Burden: If the right hon. Gentleman feels so strongly about this now, why did he not go into the Lobbies in 1951 and vote against the proposal to increase Purchase Tax?
    Mr. Jay: The hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden) does not know which side he is on. He said he did not like Purchase Tax, but was against removing it, so I do not think we need take his view seriously.
    Returning to the point made by the hon. Member for Ilford, South, I should have thought that the plain and simple conclusion is that the country is now so well off that it does not have to pay a tax on necessities. That is the conclusion that any ordinary person would draw.
    The hon. Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Glover) who spoke particularly about textiles, advanced the curious argument against the Amendment that this 5 per cent. tax on textiles does not matter much because the consumer does not have to pay and the price is no higher than otherwise it would be. One is bound to ask, where does the £30 million we raise from this tax on textiles come from if it is not paid by the consumer? I presume that it could come only out of the profits of the textile industry, and if that is so, if this very large sum is being raised at the expense of an industry which is in distress, I do not see how the hon. Gentleman can argue that it would not help if the whole tax burden were removed.
    The Paymaster-General seemed to me to fall into the same contradiction. He said that the 5 per cent. tax on textiles was so small that it was of no significance and not worth worrying about. On the other hand, the right hon. Gentleman said that the revenue of £40 million or £50 million which it raised was so high that were it forgone, the effect would be serious. Both arguments cannot be correct, and it is notable that the £30 million or so raised from the textile industry by way of this tax is almost exactly the same sum as the Government are offering in the form of grants out of public money to get the textile industry out of its difficulties.
    The case for this Amendment seems stronger now than when we started to debate it. Whatever goes into the future Liberal Party manifesto I entirely agree with the Leader of the Liberal Party that
    1114
    this is a tax on necessities, and we cannot preserve a tax on necessities at this stage in our country's development.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Having sat in this Chamber for three hours and 12 minutes, I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the Amendment. There are certain qualifications. Even I have to leave the Chamber to get a cup of tea and a piece of cake, but since returning I have had the pleasure of listening to some hon. Members who have made two speeches. Having reached a period of life when one regards such things philosophically, I do not say that in any complaining sense.
    I wish to make out a close and reasoned case in support of the Amendment. I do so because I belong to the working classes; I have never had any aspiration to move out of the working classes and I wish to speak on behalf of its members. Many hon. Members have taken an uncompromising stand for the complete abolition of revenue-raising taxation on the members of the working classes. I wish to produce statistical evidence to prove my case. It has been prepared by some of the finest statisticians in the world, namely, those employed by the Inland Revenue and in the Civil Service. Men and women who are employed in our Government Departments are among the most conscientious of our people.
    None of us would have much of a life today but for the efforts of those engaged in the export industry, yet this is a tax upon that industry. The Chancellor, for whom 1 have a great personal regard because of his life record and his work. apart from his political outlook which is inconsistent with his personal record, said last week at a meeting of the National Consultative Council—have I got the name correct?
    Mr. Amory: indicated dissent.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Then perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will correct me.
    Mr. Amory: It is the National Production Advisory Council.
    6.45 p.m.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Thank you.
    The Chancellor said to the National Production Advisory Council that Britain must not increase costs. There must be

    1115
    no increase in wages—always wages—and there must be no increase in costs. Knowing the Chancellor, I believe that he is a man of his word, and in my view he ought to have taken the initiative at the time of this Budget and given concrete evidence of his concern and the concern of the Government to reduce costs. I take it that we are in agreement up to this point. That means that instead of juggling backwards and forwards with things as we are doing—I do not wish to say anything which will reflect upon my hon. Friends—we should this afternoon be discussing the complete abolition of this tax, and with what we should replace it. I will accept the responsibility of making a constructive suggestion about what should be put in place of Purchase Tax.
    The Labour Party is in a strong position to deal with the matter. The Labour Party—at the time it was the real Labour Party—was fundamentally opposed to the tax when it was introduced by the late Sir Kingsley Wood in 1940. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton) came to a Labour Party meeting and pleaded with us to give way and so make a contribution to winning the war. At that time several of my hon. Friends were assisting in various Government Departments and after a long discussion we gave way, because we had to subordinate our individualities and ideas in order to win the war. That is why we acquiesced and accepted the Purchase Tax.
    At that time it was a sound proposition because its main objective was to restrict consumption. We all agreed, in view of the serious situation at the time, that to restrict consumption was a good economic proposition, although many of us considered that the imposition of a Purchase Tax was not the best way to do it. Hon. Members might argue that in 1945 the Labour Party continued the tax and I plead guilty to being one who was a party to continuing it, although I never liked the tax. I thought that with each year that passed the tax would be gradually reduced until we arrived at a time when we could dispense with it.
    The logic of my observations is that it was never intended that the Purchase Tax should develop into a revenue-raising tax. That is the first lesson I
    1116
    wish to draw. I wish to appeal particularly to hon. Members of my own party, as well as to hon. Members of the Conservative Party, to consider whether it would not be better in the interests of the country completely to abolish this tax on the necessities of the people. We might keep it within a narrow limit on nonessentials, or what might be interpreted as luxury goods, and use other means to raise the remainder of the necessary revenue. If anyone wishes to force me into a corner and make me admit where I would raise that revenue I would say by way of Income Tax.
    Why do I say that? First, the working class people of our country, relatively speaking, are now being exploited more than the people of any other industrial country in the world. Does anyone doubt that? Secondly, we are, relatively speaking, subject to higher taxation than any other people, and I do not differentiate here between the working class and any other section of the community. Relatively speaking, we have higher taxes imposed upon our people than is the case in any other part of the world. Does anybody doubt that? Thirdly, this country depends upon its exports—could we have some order on the Front Bench, please?—more than any other country in the world. Therefore, one would think that a Government acting in the interests of the whole country and not of any particular section would so legislate that what was in the best interests of the country would be provided for.
    That brings me to a personal point with the Chancellor. I had hoped that the Chancellor would have come forward this time—and seeing that he has not done it this time I hope that if he is still Chancellor he will do it next time—and taken the initiative in bringing forward proposals for a complete abolition of this revenue-raising tax on the people. The Chancellor said last week that we must keep our costs down. Yet what are the facts? These are not my figures, not a Socialist's figures, but figures taken from the Economic Bulletin for Europe dealing with the first quarter of 1958.
    To take West Germany, Germany lost the war. Twice in my lifetime Germany has lost a war which we are supposed to have won. What are the facts? In West Germany, between 1955 and 1958, consumer prices rose by 7·3 per cent. and

    1117
    hourly earnings rose by 21.4 per cent. These figures are from the Economic Bulletin for Europe which was published in 1958 and can be checked by anyone in the Library. In France, consumer prices rose by 12.6 per cent. and hourly earnings by 24 per cent. I could go on giving figures if anyone wants them, but I will confine myself to our own country. Remembering the facts I have already given, we find that in Britain consumer prices in the same period rose by 11.3 per cent. and hourly earnings by 15.2 per cent. It is upon these official figures that I am basing the concrete proposal concerning our industrial workers which I made at the beginning of my observations.
    It is against the background of these figures that, first, I want to make out a case for the complete abolition of this revenue-raising tax. Secondly, I am also stating that it is time that this House insisted that Ministers carried out the statements they have made in the country to the effect that prices and costs must be kept down. Therefore, I ask if we could have an explanation some time during this debate why prices have not been kept down, in comparison with what has taken place in other countries. Why is it that in our own country consumer prices have been rising like this, whereas in most other countries they have not risen to the same extent? Why is it that hourly earnings here have not risen in proportion to the rise in other countries?
    I am arguing that we should be taking the initiative, and I am very pleased that the Chancellor and other Ministers are following me so closely, because they are personally involved, and I know that they mean business in their approach to this problem. I am making out a case that the time has come in Britain when we should re-examine what happened during the war, because, in my view, it is no longer economically applicable, from the best business point of view, 15 years after the war ended. That is the main point I am making, and I will accept the responsibility of saying why the situation is as I have described it.
    First, there are no people in the world who suffer more from the effects of trade associations than the people in this country. These associations are so well organised and have such a grip upon raw materials that internal prices here are out of all relation to world prices. My
    1118
    second point is that the cost of living has not been reduced in relation to world prices. Why is it that the cost of living, including consumer prices, has not been reduced as it has been in West Germany, France, Belgium and Sweden? It is not the fault of the Government, except to the extent that I will show later on. It is not the fault of my right hon. Friends. It is because no Government up to this day has had the courage to deal with these trade associations which now have such a grip upon the internal situation in this country.
    My third point is that business people do not mind the Purchase Tax because, relatively speaking, colossal profits, out of all relation to the effort, are now being made while the overhead charges here are greater than they are in any other part of the world. I see you watching me very carefully, Sir Charles, and I appreciate your attention. These are all points to show why this afternoon we are considering a very serious situation, and I am producing evidence to show that the time has arrived, not only to support this Amendment in the form in which it is presented, but, as the Minister replying interpreted it, for the complete abolition of Purchase Tax.
    We in this country pay higher taxes, including the Purchase Tax, than anyone in the world. I have figures here, but I do not want to detain the Committee by giving one after another, which I could do if necessary. If anyone doubts what I am saying, I am quite prepared to give the figures to the Committee, subject to the acquiescence of the Chairman.
    I have before me figures which I am quoting from the Daily Telegraph of 19th June, 1958, showing that both directly and indirectly, we are, relatively speaking, more highly taxed than people in any other part of the world. I know that we have some responsibility for it on this side of the Committee, and I accept it, but some of us are in a very strong position, and especially 158 of my hon. Friends, because we had courage. It is so easy to talk, but when we are put to the test, when we accept positions of responsibility or when we are tested by a vote, it is where we stand when the vote takes place that is important.
    Some of my hon. Friends are in a strong position over the Japanese Peace Treaty and all that it has meant, and they are also in a strong position with regard

    1119
    to high taxation. We ought never to have agreed to that colossal expenditure on armaments, which has undermined industry in this country, to the extent of £1,500 million. Fundamentally, it is that which is responsible for the present high taxation in this country.
    7.0 p.m.
    I come to the next point, in which the Purchase Tax is involved. I can produce evidence, if necessary, for every item that I shall mention. I have said that trade associations have a firm grip upon raw materials and that those engaged in the trades are not being given a chance. I could give many examples of the enormous profits made in the building, distributive and other industries, but I do not want to detain the Committee any longer than is desirable. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) will remember when we had the privilege of being very closely associated with Sir John Barbirolli. We sat in my small house having tea. A well-known journalist, who claimed to be so much on the Left that we were on the Right, is now playing his part in the Institute of Directors. Many people have been asking for the Evening Standard tonight. More people ought to go and read this.
    What do we find? I see, from the Financial Times of 19th November that the directors of Messrs. E. S. & A. Robinson receive—each of the 14 of them, not all of them—£29,499 a year. The nine directors of Messrs. Turner and Newall each receive £27,522. The four directors of Imperial Chemicals receive £18,316 each and the twelve directors of Woolworth's each receive £18,196. I could go on giving example after example. I have a whole list of them.
    The Chairman: It would perhaps be a little wide of the Amendment.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Sir Charles, you are retiring. I hope that whoever occupies the Chair in the Committee of Ways and Means in the future will be as wise as you. I have known some fast ones in the past, but I do not want to say too much about that. It is not altogether a question of political differences, so I had better say no more about that. Those who have known your record in the position you occupy, and all that it means
    1120
    behind the scenes away from this Committee and other Committees, must bow to your Ruling and accept it. You set an example, as another right hon. Gentleman does in his sphere, to those who are coming along. I hope that both you and Mr. Speaker—I shall have a further opportunity of saying this—will place on record before you leave your posts your views on these matters so that those who come along afterwards can benefit from your experience.
    Having said that, Sir Charles, I want to admit that I was straying a little, but at the same time I would like you to see the interpretation that I am putting upon the emoluments, as they are called, that each of these directors is receiving.
    I am talking about Purchase Tax, which is involved here. No wonder the Institute of Directors does not want any more nationalisation. No wonder it misinterprets modern Socialist ideas. Some of us knew at the time that if we had taken our stand on what is fundamentally right, then, no matter how they knocked us about, we should be proved right sooner or later. When we compromise to the extent that has been done we walk right into it, and we are up to the neck in it; and we suffer, as some of us are doing at the present time.
    Some of us represent a great exporting industry and are bound to speak in regard to it. This is only the general case that would be presented. All hon. Members, even if they do not agree with the political line or political approach that we take to these problems, will, I hope, forgive me for a moment. Some of us have, to a certain extent, to carry on a fight on two fronts. If we could have most of my hon. Friends in a room, like Committee Room 14, and especially those who have come through one stage after another, and if we had time, we could convince 90 per cent. of them of the correctness of the line that I am taking.
    Our next step is to try to convince those who do not accept our political approach. This is one of the best institutions in the world for this purpose. I will try to do it, quite apart from what I have said previously. All thinking people will now agree that this country cannot carry on without maximum exports. That means that all unnecessary costs and charges should be eliminated wherever possible. The overhead charges

    1121
    on productive industry are far too high in relation to the cost of the products. Either directly or indirectly, restrictionist taxes, like the Purchase Tax which has now become a revenue tax, are a burden upon productive industry. Is that fair?
    If anyone differs from me I would remind him that we cannot settle it in here and that at some time, out there in the Lobby, we can have it out. The only way to win Divisions in this place is to win as many individual hon. Members to our support as we can. Between now and the next Budget, whether it be from my
    right. hon. Friends now in opposition or from right hon. Gentlemen now in government, I hope that the whole House of Commons will say that the time has arrived when the logic of this Amendment should be applied, so as to take this revenue-raising tax from productive industries. If it is necessary to raise revenue, let us do so by some other means.
    Question put, That "and" stand part of the Clause:—
    The Committee divided: Ayes 247, Noes 203.

    Division No. 106.]

    AYES

    [7.10 p.m.

    Agnew, Sir Peter

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam)

    Aitken, W. T.

    du Cann, E. D. L.

    Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

    Duncan, Sir James

    Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

    Arbuthnot, John

    Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

    Keegan, D.

    Armstrong, C. W.

    Elliott, R.W.(N'castle upon Tyne, N.)

    Kerby, Capt. H. B.

    Ashton, H.

    Errington, Sir Eric

    Kerr, Sir Hamilton

    Atkins, H. E.

    Erroll, F. J.

    Kershaw, J. A.

    Baldock, Lt.-Comdr J. M.

    Farey-Jones, F. W.

    Kimball, M.

    Baldwin, Sir Archer

    Fell, A.

    Kirk, P. M.

    Barlow, Sir John

    Finlay, Graeme

    Lancaster, Col. C. G.

    Barter, John

    Fisher, Nigel

    Langford-Holt, J. A.

    Batsford, Brian

    Fletcher-Cooke, C.

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Baxter, Sir Beverley

    Forrest, G.

    Leavey, J. A.

    Beamish, Col. Tufton

    Fort, R.

    Leburn, W. G.

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Freeth, Denzil

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

    Gammans, Lady

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

    George, J. C. (Pollok)

    Lindsay. Hon. James (Devon, N.)

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald

    Gibson-Watt, D.

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Glover, D.

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Biggs-Davison, J. A.

    Godber, J. B.

    Longden, Gilbert

    Bingham, R. M.

    Goodhart, Philip

    Loveys, Walter H.

    Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

    Gough, C. F. H.

    Low, Rt. Hon. Sir Toby

    Bishop, F. P.

    Gower, H. R.

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth,S.)

    Body, R. F.

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)

    Bossom, Sir Alfred

    Grant, Rt. Hon. W. (Woodside)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

    Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R.(Nantwich)

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Green, A.

    Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

    Braine, B. R.

    Gresham Cooke, R.

    MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)

    Brewis, John

    Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

    McMaster, Stanley

    Brooman-White, R. C.

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

    Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)

    Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Bryan, P.

    Gurden, Harold

    Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Butler, Rt.Hn.R.A.(Saffron Walden)

    Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

    Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E.

    Campbell, Sir David

    Hay, John

    Mathew, R.

    Carr, Robert

    Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

    Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

    Mawby, R. L.

    Channon, H. P. G.

    Henderson, John (Cathcart)

    Medlicott, Sir Frank

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

    Henderson-Stewart, Sir James

    Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.

    Cole, Norman

    Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

    Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

    Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Morrison, John (Salisbury)

    Cooke, Robert

    Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

    Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

    Cooper, A. E.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Nairn, D. L. S.

    Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Neave, Airey

    Corfield, F. V.

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

    Hope, Lord John

    Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Horobin, Sir Ian

    Nicolson, N.(B'n'm'th, E. & Ch'ch)

    Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. 0. E.

    Howard, Hon. Grevitle (St. Ives)

    Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Allan

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Howard, John (Test)

    Noble, Michael (Argyll)

    Crowder, Petro (Ruislip—Northwood)

    Hughes Hallett, Vice Admiral J.

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Cunningham, Knox

    Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

    Oakshott, H. D.

    Currie, G. B. H.

    Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh, S.)

    O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)

    Dance, J. C. G.

    Hutchison, Sir James (Scotstoun)

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

    Osborne, C.

    D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    iremonger, T. L.

    Page, R. G.

    de Ferranti, Basil

    Irvine, Bryant Gottman (Rye)

    Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

    Dodds-Parker, A. D.

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Partridge, E.

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.

    Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

    Peel, W. J.

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

    Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

    Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Pitman, I. J.

    Spearman, Sir Alexander

    Vickers, Miss Joan

    Pitt, Miss E. M.

    Speir, R. M.

    Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

    Pott, H. P.

    Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Wall, Patrick

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. 0. L.

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

    Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

    Ramsden, J. E.

    Studholme, Sir Henry

    Webbe, Sir H.

    Rawlinson, Peter

    Summers, Sir Spencer

    Webster, David

    Redmayne, M.

    Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Teeling, W.

    Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

    Ridsdale, J. E.

    Temple, John M.

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Nippon, A. G. F.

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Wood, Hon. R.

    Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

    Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

    Wooliam, John Victor

    Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

    Yates, William (The Wrekin)

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)

    Russell, R. S.

    Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

    Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

    Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Sharpies, R. C.

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Mr. Chichester-Clark and

    Shepherd, William

    Turton, Rt. Hon. R. H.

    Mr. Whitelaw.

    NOES

    Aineley, J. W.

    Gibson, C. W.

    Monslow, W.

    Albu, A. H.

    Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

    Moody, A. S.

    Al!sun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Greenwood, Anthony

    Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Cranial', Rt. Hon. D. R.

    Mort, D. L.

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Grey, C. F.

    Moyle, A.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Mulley, F. W.

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

    Grimond, J.

    Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)

    Benson, Sir George

    Hale, Leslie

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.)

    Beswick, Frank

    Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Oliver, G. H.

    Blenklnsop, A.

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Orbach, M.

    Blyton, W. R.

    Hannan, W.

    Oswald, T.

    Boardman, H.

    Hastings, S.

    Padley, W. E.

    Bonham Carter, Mark

    Hayman, F. H.

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

    Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

    Hewitson, Capt. M.

    Parker, J.

    Bowles, F. G.

    Hilton, A. V.

    Parkin, B. T.

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)

    Paton, John

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Houghton, Douglas

    Pearson, A.

    Burke, W. A.

    Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

    Peart, T. F.

    Burton, Miss F. E.

    Hughes, Ciedwyn (Anglesey)

    Pentland, N.

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Popplewell, E.

    Callaghan, L. J.

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Prentice, R. E.

    Carmichael, J.

    Hunter, A. E.

    Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

    Champion, A. J.

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Probert, A. R.

    Chapman, W. D.

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Rankin, John

    Chetwynd, G. R.

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Readhead, E. C.

    Cliffe, Michael

    Irving, Sydney (Dartford)

    Reeves, J.

    Coldrick, W.

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Reid, William

    Co'lick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Rhodes, H.

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Jager, Mrs. Lena(Holbn & St. Pncs, S.)

    Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Cronin, J. D.

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Grossman, R. H. S.

    Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

    Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

    Cullen, Mrs. A.

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

    Darling, George (Hillsborough)

    Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

    Ross, William

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

    Kenyon, C.

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Short, E. W.

    Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Silverman, Julius (Aston)

    Deer, G.

    Lawson, G. M.

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Delargy, H. J.

    Lee, Frederick (Newton)

    Simmons, C. J. (Brieriey Hill)

    Diamond, John

    Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Dodds, N. N.

    Lewis, Arthur

    Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

    Donnelly, D. L.

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Slater, J. (Sedgefield)

    Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)

    Lipton, Marcus

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Logan, D. G.

    Snow, J. W.

    Edelman, M.

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

    McAlister, Mrs. Mary

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Slr Frank

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    MacColl, J. E.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Edwards, Robert (Bllston)

    McInnes, J.

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Steele, T.

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Mahon, Simon

    Stonehouse, John

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    Mallalleu, E. L. (Brlgg)

    Stones, W. (Consett)

    Fernyhough, E.

    Mallslieu, J.P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)

    Stross, Dr. Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

    Fitch, A. E. (Wigan)

    Mann, Mrs. Jean

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Fletcher, Eric

    Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

    Swingler, S. T.

    Forman, J. C.

    Mason, Roy

    Sylvester, G. 0.

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Messer, Sir F.

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    George, Lady MeganLioyd(Car'then)

    Mitchison, G. R.

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    1124

    1125

    Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

    Wheeldon, W. E.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Thornton, E.

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Winterbottom, Richard

    Timmons, J.

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Tomney, F.

    Wilkins, W. A.

    Woof, R. E.

    Usborne, H. C.

    Willey, Frederick

    Yates, V. (Ladywood)

    Viant, S. P.

    Williams, David (Neath)

    Warbey, W. N.

    Williams, Rec. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

    Watkins, T. E.

    Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Weitzman, D.

    Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

    Mr. Holmes and Mr. J. T. Price.

    The Chairman: The other Amendments to this Clause are either out of order or fall.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
    Mrs. Eirene White: I have been asked to say something from this side of the Committee on this Motion. As the Committee will appreciate, we have to take this step because it is the only one open to us in order to discuss the various items included in the rates of tax other than those chargeable at 5 per cent.
    Naturally, I am not going into the arguments which have been already adduced about the undesirability of this method of procedure. We have already agreed that it is undesirable, should not have been done this year and should not be done on future occasions. As things are at the moment, we can discuss these various categories only on the Question, That the Clause stand part of the Bill. This means, of course, that we are unable, even if we wished to do so, to vote against any particular group because to do so would involve the entire range of items other than those chargeable to tax at 5 per cent.
    We have had some interesting observations already on the whole theory of Purchase Tax, including the very interesting and slightly discursive speech we have just heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith). My hon. Friend is against Purchase Tax altogether. I do not feel that we could go quite as far as that, but I wish to look for a moment at some of the considerations which arise in regard to the general structure of the Purchase Tax.
    Last year, we had discussions on individual items, and these are not possible this year. We had a notable victory, as the Chancellor will recall, on the important matter of buttons. We secured justice as between braces and suspenders, as between cummerbunds and waistcoats, and in various other important matters. We left a few anomalies. For example,
    1126
    the chair on which one sits in the house is taxed at one rate and the chair on which one sits in the garden is taxed at a different rate. What is done about a chair on which one sits in a tent we are not quite certain.
    The Chancellor has told us that his aim in respect of Purchase Tax is to raise revenue. That is natural enough. In the debates last year, he said that it was his purpose
    "not to interfere with the individual's choice to spend his money as he thinks best."
    The right hon. Gentleman made great play of that. He said:
    "I do not believe that one is justified in interfering more than is necessary with the free choice of an individual to spend his money as he likes."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th May, 1958; Vol. 588, c. 982.]
    He uses this philosophy, presumably, as the basis for the action he has taken this year in making a very considerable reduction, 10 per cent., in the group previously taxed at 60 per cent., bringing it down to 50 per cent., in making a very much smaller reduction in what he previously called the standard rate of tax, which is now 25 per cent. instead of 30 per cent., in making a proportionately much smaller reduction of only 2½ per cent. in the next group, and, of course, making no reduction at all in the lowest group. He justifies this, I assume, on the ground that he is making it possible for the person with a high income to he unimpeded in his choice of buying a Rolls-Royce or a Jaguar rather than a cheaper motor car.
    We on this side of the Committee do not entirely accept the philosophy of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We feel very strongly that there is a social case for a fairly wide differentiation in tax as between articles which are relative luxuries and those which are such necessities that there is no question of any element of choice in the matter.
    I wish to direction attention to the group of articles charged at 12½ per cent., on which there has been a very slight

    1127
    reduction. In this group are still included very many household necessities in regard to which there is no choice about whether one purchases them or not. They are articles which every household needs, and we on this side do not consider that they are suitable subjects for a Revenue tax. I will not weary the Committee by going into great detail—I should be out of order were I to attempt to do so—but, by way of illustration, I will remind the Committee that in this group we still have such things as dustbins, mats, clothes props, baking tins and all the other paraphernalia which the housewife needs in her kitchen, such as teapots, trays, wire utensils, and so forth. With one very small exception which was disposed of last year, there are still subject to a quite high rate of tax almost all the articles brought under tax in the famous, or, rather infamous. "pots and pans" Budget of the autumn of 1955.
    One would have thought that, in a year in which the Chancellor was disposing of so much surplus income, he might have chosen the occasion to do justice to the housewives who, in our submission, have been very unjustly treated in Budgets since 1955.
    It is true that retail price of some of the articles is not very great and the amount of tax on each individual item is not, therefore, very large. There was some discussion on a previous Amendment as to whether there was any deterrent effect in the relatively small amount of Purchase Tax on some articles in the lowest category, and it might fairly be argued that even some of the articles I have just mentioned are not, as individual items, taxed so heavily that one could safely say that the amount of tax can have a deterrent effect.
    Our argument is not really directed to this point. Our argument is based on social justice. To this extent, I fully agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South, when he says that there are pernicious elements in any sort of Purchase Tax unless it is confined to objects which are demonstrably luxuries. If it is not so confined, it becomes a regressive tax in its nature. That is really the burden of our argument.
    In the lower Purchase Tax range, which includes very many articles of everday necessity, the tax on the articles taken collectively—not the few pence on each
    1128
    individual item—constitutes a specific and, proportionately, very heavy burden on persons with low incomes. Therefore, on an occasion such as this when much has been given to people with higher incomes and when the Purchase Tax concessions themselves benefit people able to make purchases involving large sums in the higher ranges of tax, the Chancellor should have brought into play not his own philosophy of choice but should have paid attention to the regressive nature of the tax when applied to necessities.
    We feel fully justified in taking particular objection to the 12½ per cent. group just as we did in regard to the 5 per cent. group, though we are not able to put it in the same form, because this group also includes many articles of household necessity, and social considerations should have prevailed.
    The amount of tax expected to be raised in this particular group is the smallest of the four groups concerned, about £40 million in the current financial year. When set against a total yield of £471 million, the yield from this particular group as a revenue-raiser is by no means the most important. Nevertheless, in addition to the minor items which I have mentioned, it includes such other items of extreme importance to any household as carpets and floor coverings, which I have always said are one of the greatest burdens on anyone having to set up house, as anyone with experience of doing so knows only too well.
    7.30 p.m.
    The group includes other articles such as crockery, cutlery, wallpaper and hand-operated domestic appliances, which from their nature are likely to be purchased by those who cannot afford to buy the articles in the more expensive ranges which are electrically or gas operated.
    Therefore, this group, together with the one which we recently discussed, imposes a very heavy burden on people with smaller incomes. These two groups together account for rather less than £100 million out of the £471 million. From the point of view of revenue, they are less important than the tax on motor cars, television sets, and so forth. From the social point of view, on the other hand, we consider that they are extremely important and that the Chancellor should have borne this aspect of this tax in mind.

    1129
    Having stressed this group, because it is one on which I feel very strongly, I admit that there are articles in the other groups about which we feel some concern. I have no doubt that many of my hon. Friends who have especial knowledge of some of the matters in industries affected will wish to put in some detail their point of view on these items. I will mention one or two groups only which have caused us some concern.
    I need hardly remind the Chancellor after the exchanges that we had last year how strongly my hon. Friends, and I understand some of his hon. Friends also, feel about musical instruments. Last year the Chancellor made one of his more regretful speeches and he reached a point when most of us expected that some greater concession was about to be made. I have been reading some of the material sent to hon. Members by societies concerned with this subject.
    Included in some of the references made by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee is one by the noble Lady the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Viscountess Davidson)—I am sorry that she is not here now—in which she refers to a wonderful deputation to the Chancellor. I am sure that the Chancellor exercised all his charm, but to my mind the deputation was not so wonderful unless we are told today that the Chancellor has had further thoughts and is prepared to make one further exception at least. He has made two exceptions in the Budget by taking individual items out. He might at least on this item make another exception.
    I need hardly remind the Chancellor that one of the two exceptions that he has made this year was in favour of television. He should at least balance that by making some gesture towards those who do not sit back passively looking at other people's efforts, but play instruments themselves. In general, it would not be in order to discuss individual items in great detail. However, as there is so much feeling in all parts of the Committee about this item I hope that we may be allowed at least to stress it, in the hope that the Chancellor will make a gesture, which would be very widely appreciated, towards those persons, especially children, who wish to have their own musical instruments. We know
    1130
    that the tax has been reduced, but it is still very heavy on these expensive items.
    What steps are taken by the Chancellor to discover the degree to which his tax remissions are passed on to consumers? The Chancellor said in opening the Budget on 7th April:
    "these reductions will give a material measure of relief to the consumer."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th April, 1959; Vol. 603, c. 551
    When we had some discussion on this point last year and the Chancellor was pressed, he said that he relied entirely on the forces of competition and that it was not to the long-term advantage of distributors not to pass on the full benefit of the tax.
    It is my belief that in some ranges of articles the tax is definitely passed on. I am thinking of items such as motor cars or expensive durable consumer goods, as they are called—refrigerators, washing machines, and so forth—where as a rule the amount of Purchase Tax is indicated specifically in the shop. It is stated separately from the price of the article and in those circumstances it is probable that the full tax remission is passed on. I am equally convinced that with other articles—I think that some of my hon. Friends have instances they may like to mention by way of illustration; for example, cosmetics and one or two other little matters of interest to ladies—the tax is not passed on to the consumer.
    We should be happier if we had from the Chancellor, instead of the pious hope expressed in his Budget speech, some specific information about what steps he takes to find out to what extent the concessions which he makes, which are intended to benefit the consumers, ultimately reached them.
    If the concessions do not reach the consumer, many of the purposes of the Chancellor's remissions are frustrated and the heavy burden of tax—after all, nearly £500 million is not to be brushed aside—remains to a degree which must be injurious to our trade and economy.
    Some of my right hon. and hon. Friends feel that the Chancellor has chosen the wrong balance in his tax remissions this year. The very large reduction from 60 per cent. to 50 per cent. was not required this year. I say that with the knowledge that there are some items in that group on which some of my hon. Friends may feel

    1131
    rather strongly. Broadly speaking, to many of us it did not seem judicious this year to make such a large reduction in that group, in which the major items are motor cars and television sets, which is by far the largest revenue group of the four, at a time when the motor industry at any rate appears to be flourishing and when there has been a considerable boost to some of the other industries owing to the loosening of hire purchase arrangements.
    It might be asked why, if we feel, as some of us do, that this was an error of judgment by the Chancellor, we did not do the one thing which under the rules of procedure is open to us, namely to vote for an increase in, or for less remission of, the tax. We cannot do that because if we did we should still be entirely hampered in suggesting alternative remissions. It would, therefore, be very dangerous for us to suggest that certain sections of Purchase Tax might not have been remitted when, at the same time, we are entirely unfree to suggest other remissions. We cannot do that.
    Nevertheless, we are well justified in suggesting that in this year, when the Chancellor had a very wide choice, and when his fiscal position was so much easier than it had been for some years, he might have made a different use of his freedom. As I have said, Purchase Tax is, in its lower range, regressive. It is extremely hard on those who receive no other benefits from the Budget. Notwithstanding that, the Chancellor chose to give much the higher relief to the articles that, on the whole, are bought by those who have more of this world's goods.
    Clearly, we are not in a position to press to Division the various specific changes we would like to make in Purchase Tax. We are bound, therefore, to have a very general discussion, but I hope that we shall get replies to some of the points I and some of my hon. Friends raised.
    Sir Hamilton Kerr: Speaking on the last Amendment, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) said that the only way to win Divisions in the House is to win opinions from all sides. I am not often in agreement with the hon. Member. I find myself more often in agreement with
    1132
    the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross) when it comes to discussion of the arts. In fact, we have come to call ourselves—and I hope we do so without flattering ourselves unduly—the Heavenly Twins.
    Today, therefore, I should like to add a small expression of disappointment at the fact that the Chancellor, who has been so very generous in a number of concessions, has not been able to lower the Purchase Tax on gramophone records. I do so for a very special reason, because I believe that an essential principle is involved.
    7.45 p.m.
    I happened to be a Member of the House in the spring and early summer of 1940, when Sir Kingsley Wood suggested a tax on books. There was an immediate outcry and, after several weeks of discussion, the proposal was withdrawn. It is of particular importance to consider the position. in which the country found itself when that proposal was made. At that time, France had asked for an armistice, Hitler was master of Europe and the Germans were already erecting long-range guns at Cap Gris Nez.
    It was made at a time when we were desperately anxious to divert all possible labour and materials to essential war production; when we needed every square foot of shipping space, and when every man and woman not already in the Forces was needed to produce the guns, the tanks, the ships and the aeroplanes with which to fight the enemy on land and sea and in the air. Nevertheless, people felt, rightly, that an essential principle was at stake, and that in a fight against dictatorship such a principle was a vital weapon of war.
    That proposal was withdrawn, but the proposal to place a 30 per cent. tax on gramophone records remained, and has since increased. It is one of the interesting facts of the age that the taste for good music has spread into almost every home, but the anomaly still exists that we can buy the works of Shakespeare, of Ben Johnson or of Marlowe without tax, but if we wish to hear the voice of Sir John Gielgud or of Dame Edith Evans reciting passages from those works, we have to pay the tax. We can buy the script of a symphony by Dr. Vaughan Williams without paying tax, but if we want to hear

    1133
    it produced by one of the finest orchestras we have to pay the very high Purchase Tax.
    I believe that our gramophone record industry is for us an ambassador abroad equally as good as are our books. Not only does it achieve results at home; it achieves them also in the export market. When considering the position at home, we recognise that the leading orchestras, the Hallé, the London and the Birmingham Symphony Orchestras, and the Scottish National Orchestra—derive large portions of their revenue from the sale of records of their work, so that the support given to music is weakened by this heavy tax.
    When considering the export position, I understand that no less than 80 per cent. of our records go overseas, of which 50 per cent. go to the United States of America, so producing valuable dollars. Each year we earn about £3½ million worth of valuable foreign exchange from the sale of gramophone records. I am, therefore, able to place before my right hon. Friend three reasons for a concession here: first, the cultural one—that much abused word; second, the support that is given to our home orchestras, and, third, the importance of getting valuable exchange from exports.
    I believe that many of my hon. Friends and hon. Members throughout the House will feel that the issue is important, and we will recur to this theme again and again. I have often said that the walls of Jericho do not fall at the first blast of the trumpet. If one goes on blasting, perhaps an emissary will eventually appear and offer to parley, saying, "If you will just stop that infernal hooting we may come to terms." I am sure that we do not want to harass my right hon. Friend to that extent in backing up our case, but, if he is generous, we may play him a voluntary on our trumpet.
    Mr. Arthur Henderson: The hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir H. Kerr) will forgive me if I do not follow him in his case for a concession on gramophone records, except to say that as one who is also a music lover I agree with everything he said, apart from his last rather weak words. I must now ask the Committee to switch to the more mundane subject of domestic utensils, and I do so because
    1134
    of the effects of the Purchase Tax upon the hollow-ware trade.
    It is true that the Chancellor has remitted 2½ per cent. of the tax, but my hon. Friend the Member for Brierley Hill (Mr. Simmons) and I have in our constituencies two of the largest hollow-ware factories in the country. They have spent a great deal of capital in modernising their plant, but in the post-war years they have been seriously prejudiced by competition, which they regard as unfair, from Hong Kong, which has affected them in their overseas markets, principally in East and West Africa.
    It would not be so bad were they able to make up for loss of overseas markets by maintaining their position in the domestic market, but they are not in that happy position and, once again, they are having to face limited unemployment in their trade. Therefore, I hope that the Chancellor will give the most careful consideration to the position, not only of the hollow-ware industry but others in like circumstances, and the effect of even a 12½ per cent. Purchase Tax upon their markets.
    I should like to read an extract from a letter that I received from one of the employers. It says:
    "The paltry reduction now proposed is a mere token, doing nothing to alleviate the clamour from consumer and employer alike, and serving only to prolong the recession in this trade. The resultant idle plant and unemployed hands of a once valuable exporting industry now testify to a shortsightedness which apparently fails to see that so much could be achieved by the relatively insignificant sacrifice of revenue which would arise from abolition of Purchase Tax on such products."
    I am well aware that any appeal I can make today cannot have, and could not have, the slightest effect upon the pronouncement of the Chancellor that he cannot do more than reduce from 15 per cent. to 12½ per cent. the Purchase Tax on domestic utensils. I hope that something can be done to alleviate the parlous plight in which the hollow-ware industry finds itself not only as regards the factories situated in the Midlands but also those situated in other parts of the country. I believe that one hon. Member has a very large hollow-ware factory in his constituency in Wales.
    Quite frankly, I say to the Chancellor that this is, in a sense, special pleading because I realise that I am speaking directly on behalf of several thousand

    1135
    people who are employed in the two factories in my constituency and the neighbouring one of Brierley Hill. Nevertheless, I want to place on record that Purchase Tax, as it affects domestic utensils, is not only retrograde in so far as it affects the living conditions of the housewife, but is also having this indirect effect upon the industry on which my own Borough of Rowley Regis has largely based its prosperity in the past and which is now of great importance to the future welfare of the people of that borough.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: I quite agree with the argument of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson) about Purchase Tax on domestic utensils not only as it affects his own constituency but also on behalf of those women who run their households throughout the country. It may be that he was speaking from personal experience in helping, perhaps occasionally, with the washing-up.
    I should like to speak specifically on two points. One is the individual effect of Purchase Tax and the other is the general question of Purchase Tax as a whole. I should like, first, to join with my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Sir H. Kerr) and, believe, with a good many other hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, on the effect of the rate of Purchase Tax on gramophone records. I believe that a great number of hon. Members wish to make their voices heard on this issue, so I will be brief.
    I recognise that the Chancellor is doing all that he can to try to tackle this jungle of Purchase Tax in reducing it to the more streamlined number of categories that we have now. I think that I should say at the start that all of us—at least, I hope all of us—are grateful for the reductions that have been made, including the 10 per cent. on gramophone records. Nevertheless, I wonder whether the Chancellor has really considered whether this particular section of Purchase Tax is the right one to apply to the gramophone record industry, which is lumped together with a great many things which can be described either as capital goods or in the luxury class.
    I submit that gramophone records are not in the capital goods class and I question whether they can nowadays be considered
    1136
    in the luxury class of what was originally a wartime tax. We are supported in the view that they are no longer luxuries because the Chancellor has, in fact, abolished the Purchase Tax on television tubes. I remember very well hon. Members opposite, two years ago, questioning the Chancellor and asking whether he realised that television was now a necessity in every home. We all have our own views on that. I certainly would not say that every programme on television is pure culture. Nor, on the other hand, would I say that every record produced is also pure culture. I do not say that in tax matters we should distinguish between "pop" music and the classics any more than that we should try to distinguish between one television programme and another, or between trashy novels and the classics. I maintain, however, that the Chancellor would have met a strong feeling not only in this Committee, but in the country, if he had tried to remove this particular category of gramophone records into another category.
    I should be out of order in suggesting a reduction of the tax in any particular way, but I suggest that at the earliest possible time we should try to remove it into another category altogether. There is, of course, always the argument of whether we want to try to stop spending by people on what are called consumer goods. In my submission, we will never stop young people spending money on music today. I think that it is one of the most encouraging features that more and more young people want to take their entertainment into the home and that is why I personally have always been in favour of television, because I think that everyone, from the grandmother down, in looking at television, has a common interest and a source of common discussion, and, indeed, often the grandmother is the most informed.
    I do not see why, if we encourage television by abolishing the Purchase Tax on television tubes, we should not also encourage a real interest in music, which is taking place all over the country. It appears to me ridiculous that when one is sent a review copy of a book no tax is paid, but when there are test pressings of a record, perhaps 10 or 12 before the final copy is put into production, Purchase Tax is paid on them.

    1137
    If we consider the British Council, in which I have some interest, being chairman of the Scottish Panel, it appears to me ridiculous that one Department should tax another which has to subsidise its own records. If we take the year 1958–59, the British Council used records both for music and speech for instruction overseas—7,902 records altogether, on which it did not pay tax. It is quite true that at home in the same period it used only 209 records on which it did pay tax. The large total of practically 8,000 records which went overseas, however, was subsidised by the agreement of this House, yet it was taxed by another Department. That seems to me to be a most extraordinary way of making legislation.
    Governments today exercise very great influence through their fiscal policy on the kind of society they want to see in the country. I should have thought that it was very unwise to try to encourage everything that goes with a materialistic society. Surely we always pride ourselves on being one of the most civilised nations. Therefore, I hope that on this specific matter the Chancellor will think again.
    On Purchase Tax as a whole we always have, in this Committee, two conflicting opinions. One is that it is necessary to have it not only for purposes of revenue, but also positively to discourage consumer spending. On the other hand, we have the argument, which, I hope, is gaining prevalence now, that we have to do everything in our power to encourage employment and stimulate industrial activity. Here I would make a plea for the levels of Purchase Tax as a whole. We are trying, in dealing with our industrial problems in Scotland, to bring as many different industries as we can to the North, notably those concerned with consumer goods. I have always understood that an industry cannot start or expand satisfactorily unless it can do its experimenting and has a basic supply upon the home market.
    Without doubt, the very high level of Purchase Tax on this wide variety of what we call consumer goods must have had a bad effect on the stimulus to trade internally on which the export trade is built. That being so and as Governments today exercise their guidance on the industrial activity of the country not only through the fiscal means of the Budget but through the economic policy of
    1138
    which it is a part, I hope that this Budget is the forerunner of several which will make a determined attack on a tax which was, after all, a wartime measure and has no place in time of peace.
    8.0 p.m.
    Mr. Philip Noel-Baker: I want to express my warm agreement with what my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) said about musical instruments. I believe that there are very few hon. Members who in their hearts do not endorse everything she said. My particular purpose tonight is to express my great regret that the Chancellor has not completely abolished the Purchase Tax on sports equipment. I have reason to know that the Chancellor and his colleagues have been made familiar with the arguments in favour of abolition. That fact only increases my regret that when they were making such great reductions of taxes as they have made this year, they should have retained what I believe to be this inequitable and pernicious charge.
    The Federation of British Manufacturers of Sports and Games estimates that in the last financial year the sales of the products of its members amounted to a total of about £10 million, of which about £3 million was Purchase Tax, the normal rate payable on their goods being 30 per cent. Three million pounds was paid by those who bought the equipment with which they played their games and took their physical recreation. That means that £3 million was paid mainly by young people, by people of modest means, by sporting clubs of many kinds which provide equipment for their members and most of which are in permanent financial difficulties, and by clubs for boys and girls, many of which go out of existence every year for lack of funds.
    Let me read a passage from a memorandum prepared by the Central Council for Physical Recreation, which puts the point with much greater authority than I can command. It states that
    "for certain important sections of the community, particularly young people who have just left school, the present high cost of sports equipment constitutes a serious deterrent to the practice of active games and sports. Purchase Tax on such equipment might not unfairly he regarded as a tax on the instruments of health and fitness. The high cost of sports equipment affects of course not only the

    1139
    individual performer but the youth organisations and voluntary sports clubs faced with the problem of providing general equipment for their members."
    That is the view put by the Central Council for Physical Recreation. It is fully endorsed by the other great organisation which can speak with authority on the matter, the National Playing Fields Association.
    I should like to call the attention of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to some specific examples of the incidence of this tax, which, broadly, has now been reduced from 30 to 25 per cent. I am giving figures as I calculate them after the reduction has been made. This year, under the Clause, on a good quality cricket bat—I emphasise that it pays boys' clubs to buy good quality equipment, because it lasts longer—the tax is 15s. On a cricket ball it is 7s. On a tennis racket the tax is about 23s. and on a tennis ball 6d. or 7d. Let the Financial Secretary go to Battersea Park or to whatever public park is convenient to him and look at the hundreds of young people there who are playing tennis. He would then realise the real burden of this tax and on whom it falls.
    The tax on gymnastic equipment is very heavy. On a vaulting box it is 100s. We need hundreds of additional gymnasia. Table tennis is a very popular game, particularly among the less well off young people. It is a magnificent form of recreation, available equally in summer and winter. It occupies very little space. Every young people's club needs not one table but a number of tables, and they are always fully used. Under the Clause, however, the tax on a table tennis table is 125s. On these facts, it is fair to say, in the words of the Central Council for Physical Recreation, that impositions such as these are
    "a tax on the instruments of health and fitness."
    The policy of imposing this heavy burden on the physical recreation of the people, and particularly on the games of the boys and girls and of our young people, whose lifelong habits are being formed in the years after they leave school, is uneconomic and unwise. That is true both from the short-term point of view and from the longer period viewpoint also.
    Everybody agrees that one of our most urgent social problems is juvenile
    1140
    delinquency and the lifelong crime to which it so often leads. It is a grievous social waste and it imposes a heavy annual expenditure on the nation for which the Chancellor has to provide in his annual Budget. I believe it to be true that in its various forms—gangsterism, hooliganism, the destruction of public and private property, Borstal institutions, court proceedings, and so on—it causes a loss to the nation amounting, perhaps, directly and indirectly, to tens of millions of pounds a year.
    There is, however, universal evidence, of which if I wanted to detain the Committee I could give many practical examples, that where adequate facilities for physical recreation are provided juvenile delinquency goes down or disappears. I draw the conclusion, and I am sure it is sound, that there would be an almost immediate budgetary and social return on anything done by the Chancellor to help our young people to play games, to swim, to take part in various sports, to run, to do gymnastics, and so on.
    From the longer period viewpoint, automation and nuclear power will. within decades, make the right use of leisure a matter of outstanding national importance. The sooner we begin preparing for greater leisure, the better for all concerned. This £2½ million which the Chancellor is taking this year from our young people and from our clubs for boys and girls is a small sum in his total Budget, but it is a very big sum to those who pay it. It causes grievous loss not only to them but to the nation as a whole.
    Dame Irene Ward: As I listened to the discussion on the Clause, I felt some sympathy—I underline "some"—for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because he must feel absolutely bewildered by the number of claims that are put forward for reductions of Purchase Tax in various directions. That reinforces the view which I have held for a long time, that when the annual Finance Bill is under discussion, the Treasury for some curious reason or other seems to be out of touch with life in general.
    I fully understand that revenue must be raised. I do not, however, want to make this a politically controversial speech. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not? "]

    1141
    I will not refer to what happened with Purchase Tax in the 1951 Budget. The same thing probably applied when there was a Socialist Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was also singularly out of touch with life in general in the country.
    This all goes to prove that, on certain aspect of goods covered by the Clause, between one Finance Bill and another the Chancellor should make up his mind whether or not we are imposing Purchase Tax which is restrictive on the things which the nation as a whole requires to be developed. That has been very strongly brought out by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) and by the right hon. Gentlemen the Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker), who has just spoken about sports equipment.
    It is quite impossible in a debate on the Finance Bill and on a Clause with such a wide range as this to develop the arguments that have been rightly put forward. My complaint about the Treasury's attitude in this respect is that, somehow or other, it has never taken any advice from the Arts Council, from the symphony orchestras, from officers of the youth movements, from the Home Office and a whole range of people who are interested in certain aspects of the Purchase Tax. If I am wrong about that, I am sure that the Financial Secretary will correct me.
    I do not know whether it will be the Chancellor or the Financial Secretary who will reply to the debate, but it will be interesting to hear whether any representations have been received from the Ministry of Education, the Home Office, and the Arts Council. In the case of the Arts Council, the Financial Secretary would be addressing himself, as it were, because the Council comes under the general guidance and direction of the Treasury.
    I have visited many kinds of establishments and have tried to take a general view of the country's interesting life. I was extremely interested the other day, when I visited a modern school in my part of the country, to find a large number of small children, armed with music scores, listening to a music lesson broadcast by the B.B.C. I thought how interesting it was to see these children's taste
    1142
    for good music being developed at such an early age.
    I would draw the Financial Secretary's attention to the question of the direct grants given to the Royal Schools of Music and the various sums of money which have been spent by one Government Department or another. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South pointed out that the British Council, in a wide variety of activities, is spending money only to find that the Chancellor then comes along and insists that more money be spent to support the Finance Bill.
    8.15 p.m.
    I fail to understand how gramophone records ever got into this particularly high category of tax. Nobody has been able to explain it, though perhaps the Financial Secretary will be able to tell us something about it tonight. Because he speaks for the arts in the House of Commons, he has been under considerable pressure about the difficulties of the symphony orchestras. We know that they make a great deal of their income by recording for gramophone companies, and yet gramophone records are placed in this high category of tax. It does not make sense to me.
    I shall not develop the argument about domestic utensils, because I believe that the Treasury is beyond being interested in them. The Treasury has such a burden to bear that it has ceased to be interested in whether a housewife does a good job or in how she spends her money. That is regrettable, but I want to concentrate tonight on the fact that the nation gains as a whole if we can develop good taste, good citizenship, and good citizens.
    It seems to me, from the various points raised in the debate, that the Treasury is putting a tax on good citizenship. It is putting a tax on the development of good taste in the arts, and it is not helping the creation in the youth of the country an appreciation of many things which all citizens believe are essential to a sound and good national life. My criticism of all this is that between Finance Bills it is quite impossible to persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer to set up a Royal Commission to examine problems of this kind relating to the arts. I am quite certain that if we had a report from a Royal Commission before us, it would

    1143
    draw attention to the situation arising from the high Purchase Tax imposed on gramophone records. But we have no such report, and we can speak only according to what we hear and believe.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Sir H. Kerr) referred to what happened during the war, when it was suggested that there should be a tax on books. I went out to Italy in 1945 very soon after the war ended. I found there was an immense appreciation of good music among those who served in our armies, because they were able to attend the opera in Naples. In that time they had grown up to be first-class critics and they greatly appreciated the chance they had to hear good music. One has only to go to the mining villages in Northumberland, Durham, Wales and other parts of the country to realise what music means to people. I find it absolutely impossible to believe that this aspect of our national life leaves the Chancellor absolutely unmoved. What is the good of having Royal Schools of Music and of providing State scholarships to train people at those schools if, when they leave the schools, they find that the symphony orchestras are having all the time a greater and greater struggle to live? There is no balance. It is all fragmentation. If one Minister of the Crown manages to get into the Cabinet at a suitable moment when the Chancellor has not arrived, he may get some thing passed to his Department and he gets away with it. Nobody looks at the situation from the broad angle of the national interest.
    I have no doubt that tonight we shall not get very much from the Chancellor or the Financial Secretary, but I hope that at least we can have a pledge from them. With that, I would be satisfied. And, although I do not for a moment believe that this would happen, if there is a General Election and we have a change of Government, I would like an assurance also from the other side of the Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] It is all very well hon. Gentlemen opposite cheering, but I still remember the 1951 Budget. Do not forget that.
    Tonight, I want an assurance that between now and the next Finance Bill the question of money spent through
    1144
    various Government Departments will be looked at with the idea of sustaining what we all believe is in the best interests of the life of the nation. I believe that we would then find that the tax on gramophone records would go. I also believe that it would go from musical instruments. In some villages we see youngsters learning to play in percussion bands and see the pleasure it gives them, and the new idea of leisure.
    Then we are faced with the situation of the Minister of Education, having received a report, saying that all public library standards must be raised. Nobody minds how much is spent on public libraries because the Minister of Education has won his battle in the Cabinet. I want many other Ministers to win their battles with the Treasury.
    All I am asking for tonight is that whoever replies to this debate will give us a firm pledge that between now and the next Finance Bill the question of the arts, the question of good music, the question of musical instruments, the question of sports equipment, and all those things which are linked with good citizenship, will be looked at from that angle, and that angle only.
    I think that we would get a much greater advantage by removing the tax completely from gramophone records and sports equipment. There is also the point that people will make an enormous effort to buy anything new and modern. I am thinking of the number of television sets that have been sold, which is remarkable. So the Chancellor has got quite a lot from the sale of television sets. It is perhaps not so easy to sell other things, and the question is: which is it best to sell in the national interest? So could I have that pledge? I do not think we can get very much further than raising the case tonight.
    Mr. Raymond Gower: Is my hon. Friend really suggesting that the best judge of the national interest is the Chancellor?
    Dame Irene Ward: No, I dream of suggesting it.
    Mr. Gower: I hope not.
    Dame Irene Ward: I am suggesting that in all the Government Departments there are distinguished people serving on

    1145
    voluntary bodies, and there are distinguished And knowledgeable civil servants who have a wide view on these matters, who can give good advice to my right hon. Friend. I therefore hope that between now and the next Finance Bill this advice will be sought, and that when we have a discussion on a Clause of this kind again it will be on the basis of what will be helpful to the general good of the country. Then we shall really have a field day.
    Mr. John Dugdale: I am sure the Committee has been fascinated in listening to the hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) and to her revelations about how the Government prepare their Budget, which are most revealing. As a result of her speech, we on this side of the Committee know a great deal more about the inner workings of the Cabinet and generally as to how the mind of the Chancellor works.
    I have the greatest pleasure in following the hon. Lady and her hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir), and also the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge (Sir H. Kerr), in supporting the movement that seems to have come from all sides of the Committee to reduce the Purchase Tax on gramophone records. It seems to me intolerable that there should be a tax of 50 per cent. on them. I speak subject to correction by the hon. Member for Tynemouth and her hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, South, because I am not an authority on these matters, but I think it is twice the tax on a mink coat. At any rate, it is very high indeed. This seems to me unreasonable and shows the peculiar working of the mind of the Chancellor.
    I shall not devote much of my speech to the question of dance music and "pop" singers. I have two children and there are some "pop" singers upon whose records I would like to have a tax of 500 per cent. or 1,000 per cent. because it would save me a great deal of trouble in my home. There are also some books read by children and grown-ups on which we might like to have a heavy tax. However, we all agree that there should not be a tax on the written word, and if that is so, as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge asked, why should there be a tax on the spoken word?
    1146
    It is extraordinary that we in the House of Commons, who depend more on the spoken word than anything else, whose whole work depends on the words we speak, should be responsible for a tax on the spoken word when we do not have a tax on the written word. I should like to see a big reduction in the tax on all gramophone records, but if the Chancellor cannot agree to that, I suggest that even now as a concession he might agree to a reduction of tax on long-playing records. I understand, that the greater number of long-playing records are classical and that some of the better types of non-classical records are included in the long-playing type.
    Mr. Chapman: Twelve inches long.
    Mr. Dugdale: I am not certain of the exact length, but long-playing records are, generally speaking, classical or of the better type, so if the Chancellor cannot make a general concession, which we would all like, he might make this concession.
    Hon. Members have spoken very movingly about the effect this tax has on children who are being taught music in schools paid for by the nation. The schools, because of Purchase Tax, have to pay a higher rate for gramophone records which they need to teach the children. It seems to me ludicrous that the local authorities should be told, "You can have records not only for teaching music but languages as well in your schools, but you must, of course, pay a higher rate for them because there must be Purchase Tax on gramophone records." That seems to me a ludicrous state of affairs.
    8.30 p.m.
    The whole business of the tax is so ludicrous it passes comprehension. Hon. Members have spoken about the tax on pressings. As review copies of books are sent out free, so pressings of records are sent out free, but the pressings bear tax. I hope that the Economic Secretary will enlighten us about it, but I understand that the reason for this extraordinary procedure is that although there was an agreement, apparently, that there should be no tax on pressings, strange though it may seem the agreement was lost in the Treasury, and because the agreement was lost in the Treasury some seven years ago this tax remains on these

    1147
    items. That seems to me a very peculiar state of affairs, and I hope we may learn a little more about it. There seems to be complete chaos. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Who lost it?"]
    Mr. William Ross: The Chancellor seems to have gone away to find it.
    Dr. Stross: Here he is back again.
    Hon. Members: Where is the agreement?
    Mr. Dugdale: I hope the Chancellor will consider this business of the lost document to which I was referring. He seems surprised. I was referring to an agreement made that there would be no tax on the pressings of gramophone records, and it seems that the document has been lost in the Treasury for seven years. It may be that the Chancellor will find it now. I hope he will find it. I do not say that he was responsible for its loss. This speech of mine is a nonparty speech, and I will say that it may have been lost in the days of a previous Chancellor of my own party. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] However, I hope that it may be found.
    There is so much that is ludicrous about this tax. Could anything be more ludicrous than this? When Her Majesty makes her Christmas broadcast the records of the broadcast, the money for the sale of which goes to charity, bear Purchase Tax. It seems to me ludicrous. When Prince Philip broadcasts an appeal for the playing fields the records made of the broadcast are taxed although they are the records of a broadcast designed to help to bring in money for playing fields and to persuade people that there ought to be better playing fields.
    I do not know what the reason for these various extraordinary taxes is. I think that the main reason is that the Chancellor is thinking in entirely out-of-date terms, as he very often does. Let us imagine what might have happened about four hundred years ago—I think it would have been. Perhaps it would have been a little more, but hon. Members will enlighten me. A gentleman called Caxton invented the printing press. At that time there may have been a Chancellor who could have said, "Anything that is written out by hand is untaxed, but anything which is printed by this
    1148
    wicked new machine which has been invented must bear tax."
    I think that is a fairly reasonable parallel with the kind of attitude which says that books must not be taxed but gramophone records must be taxed. It is an entirely untenable argument, and I hope that we shall hear from the Chancellor that he is at least beginning to think of doing something about it.
    I am afraid I must detain the Committee upon two other matters. The first, to which I refer briefly, is the question of musical instruments. I support those hon. Members who have already spoken in favour of the abolition of the tax upon them, a tax which hurts so many people, not only those who listen to good music but also those who are learning it and playing it, amateurs and professionals. The wages of the professionals in the symphony orchestras are not all that large, and many of them have to buy their own instruments and have to pay Purchase Tax on them, and it seems to me grossly unfair that they should have to do so.
    The other matter on which I must detain the Committee I must raise now owing to the very peculiar way in which we are forced by the Government to conduct this debate. I apologise for having to change the subject somewhat abruptly, but that is the reason. The second matter is that of kitchen utensils, which have already been referred to. The present Home Secretary in 1955 put a tax of 30 per cent. on kitchen utensils. Roughly speaking, what he said was, "The nation is in danger. We must turn to the housewives". He turned to the housewife, got a higher tax, and that was fine. Later, apparently, the nation was not in quite so much danger and so that rate of tax was reduced to 15 per cent. Today it is reduced to 12½ per cent., but apparently the nation is still in danger and the housewife must still pay.
    An alternative explanation, which we hold is probably the correct one, is that the Chancellor used the cry that the nation was in danger in order to impose a tax which he would not otherwise have dared to impose on the housewife and has kept it on deliberately, because his original intention was to impose such a tax and keep it on indefinitely. Many of us have asked for that tax to be reduced, if not abolished.

    1149
    I have a particular reason for saying this and it is that some kitchen utensils are made in my constituency. For those hon. Members who do not know, I can say that the price of a frying pan or kettle is increased by 2s. as the result of Purchase Tax. It is difficult not only for the housewife, but for the people who make kitchen utensils. The result of imposing the tax originally was a drop of 20 per cent. in sales, a drop which had an effect on local employment. The Chancellor appears to think that it is perfectly right that it should continue to have that effect.
    I know that the Midlands is not a hard hit area, but we can ill afford deliberate attacks on particular industries. This is a deliberate attack on a particular industry and I hope that the Chancellor will think again. I hope that he will tell us that he will do something about some of the taxes I have mentioned. My hopes arc not very great, but I join with other hon. Members in hoping that we may have a change in these important taxes.
    Mr. Gower: The course of the debate must be somewhat bewildering to my right hon. Friend. Anyone listening to the debate would imagine that the Clause was designed to increase Purchase Tax by very large amounts. In fact, as the Committee recognises, the Clause reduces Purchase Tax over a very wide range by substantial amounts.
    I agree with what has been said in many able speeches in support of reductions in various cases, and I recognise that some arguments are very strong, but it would be wrong if we did not comment on the fact that this is a very great step forward. I do not agree with the sweeping statements which have suggested that in every case this is a bad tax. I recognise that, in theory—and this case has been advanced before—there is obviously a big advantage in a direct tax, like Income Tax, but I fear that any Chancellor who attempted to raise all revenue with one tax of that kind would find that it was a very great disincentive to those who had to pay at even the middle rates, let alone the higher rates.
    Successive Chancellors from both sides have recognised that the tax base must be spread very wide to sustain the many activities of the Government. I was surprised and startled when some of my hon. Friends and hon. Members opposite
    1150
    apparently wished to make my right hon. Friend a sort of arbiter of taste. I disagree with that proposition and with my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward), who represents her constituency so ably and sometimes so eloquently and who suggested that the Treasury or Chancellor of any Government was the best judge of what was the best activity to be condoned or punished by taxation.
    Dame Irene Ward: Surely my hon. Friend is quite in error in suggesting I ever made that suggestion. I went out of my way to suggest that we ought to have a Royal Commission. This is one of the things I have agitated for and hope one day to achieve.
    Mr. Victor Yates (Birmingham, Ladywood): Is the hon. Member not aware that deputations have put forward points of view for the arts to the Chancellor on this matter? Surely the Chancellor is to some degree responsible and must be the arbiter after receiving those deputations.
    Mr. Gower: The arguments I have heard have gone further than that. In some cases the implication has been that there is a special case for what some people describe as good music. I am fond of good music, but I hesitate to say that other people must enjoy that music too. There would be considerable difficulty and resentment if there were a higher tax on popular music than on symphony music. I do not say that anybody has said that, but that has been the implication in some of the speeches. I should not like to see my right hon. Friend becoming an arbiter of taste in that sense. I agree that it is desirable to try and encourage the enjoyment of those things that one considers better in quality, but it would be going dangerously far if we thereby applied a differential basis of taxation.
    My hon. Friend may not have used the particular words, but she implied that my right hon. Friend should examine the activities of organisations which use things subject to Purchase Tax and find out which of those things are the most desirable. In my submission, it would not be proper for my right hon. Friend to carry out such an examination and arrive at that judgment.
    It is true that organisations like the British Council use certain things which

    1151
    are subject to Purchase Tax, but the number of things is relatively small in the field of Purchase Tax. If it is the British Council in one case, it will be another Government organisation in another. If it is the Ministry of Education in one case, it will be another Ministry in another. To say that because that happens tax is in essence objectionable is going too far.
    There may be a case for re-examining the method by which these accounts are ultimately balanced, but I do not regard it as an objection to a tax merely that the tax in the first place has to be paid and then possibly at some subsequent stage a larger grant has to be made. That is inevitable in the nature of things.
    Finally, I feel that the hon. Lady, who very ably initiated this debate, was wrong in suggesting that we are the proper judges of what are luxuries. She did this with considerable restraint, but there was the suggestion that some things are in the nature of luxuries and others are not. We recognise that some things are more in the category of necessities, but it would be a very bold man who asserted that what we conceive tonight to be a luxury would be a luxury tomorrow. Society, and the behaviour of people, is changing more rapidly today than ever before. The luxuries of yesterday are not merely the necessities of today, but in many cases have shown themselves to be our biggest exports. It may be that the so-called luxuries of today will be the necessities of tomorrow and become some of our biggest dollar and other currency earners. For that reason I think that this Clause is valuable. It represents a great contribution to the broad design of my right hon. Friend's Budget, and I commend it to the Committee.
    8.45 p.m.
    Dr. Stross: I feel sure that the Chancellor is vastly relieved that at long last a voice, however confused, has been raised in his support in this matter of music. I agree with one statement of the hon. Member for Barry (Mr. Gower). He was afraid of his right hon. Friend being regarded as an arbiter of taste. Such a position would be most invidious far the Chancellor. The view expressed by one of my hon. Friends that 12-inch long-playing records are, in the main, of classical music is shared by Sir Malcolm Sargent and Sir Arthur Bliss. But I hope
    1152
    that the general view will be that any assistance regarding tax exemption for gramophone records should apply to all records. I hope the Chancellor will not expose himself to assaults from the public, especially the younger people, who will accuse him of not knowing what is good taste. Youngsters are sure that their teaste is better, and we must not interfere with their view. They will grow up in their own way.
    The Chancellor will have noted the formidable confederation or coalition in the Committee on these matters. It has been formed recently and is growing. It is not a political or party political coalition, but consists of people who feel that there is some justice in making the good things of life easily available where so-called culture is concerned. I agree that that is a horrible word. It was once spelt with a "K" by a certain country and we suffered from it, and so there may be certain overtones about the word. But joy, happiness, brightness and recreation are all good things, and they ought not to be taxed in the form of a tax on musical instruments whether used by the great virtuoso or a schoolchild learning to play. Nor should there be a tax on the gramophone record, which allows people in places remote from great recreation halls like the Festival Hall or the Royal Albert Hall to hear the best of music.
    I cannot speak with the fresh attractiveness of the hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward). We all enjoyed her speech. I give her one assurance which she asked for, rather plaintively. When she received cheers from hon. Members on this side of the Committee she said that if next year the Chancellor of the Exchequer were a member of the present Opposition she hoped that what she was demanding would be guaranteed. Should such a thing occur, as I hope it will, I give her my word of honour to do my best to play the part which she has played tonight.
    It is a good thing to have a coalition on behalf of the arts in this Committee. The other night some hon. Members were estimating how many people would make use of the Order Paper were hon. Members to band together to persuade the Chancellor to take a course of action between now and the time of the next Budget. I think I am right in saying that

    1153
    the Chancellor may move a group of articles from one tax category to another at any time of the year if he so wishes. In our discussions some thought that 200 hon. Members would sign a Motion, and others thought that perhaps 300 would sign. I am not sure what the figure would be, but I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that we shall know quite soon and he will he apprised of the feelings of hon. Members even more positively than he is learning about them tonight.
    My hon. Friend who represents Flint, East (Mrs. White) seemed to raise in her opening speech the question whether the tax reduction would be passed on to the consumer. This is an important matter, which was referred to in our debates last year. I know that so far as gramophone records are concerned, the industry is very rightly grateful for the reduction from 60 to 50 per cent. that has taken place. The whole of that reduction has already been passed on to the consumer. If the Chancellor and the Economic Secretary are fully aware that if they are able to do something further, the whole of the reduction will go to the consumer, this enables us to make a better case than we could do otherwise, for what is the good of pleading that music should be made cheaper for everyone who buys these discs unless we can guarantee that the reduction of the tax will go entirely to the purchaser? Fortunately, this we can do.
    Last year, when this matter was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman), whom I am delighted to see in his place, and myself, we had a most interesting reply. I do not know who will answer us tonight, but last year it was the Solicitor-General who was put up to answer us. We have not seen the Solicitor-General sitting on the Front Bench opposite today, so that it may well be that we shall not have a legal opinion on our case, but a common sense, considered opinion from either the Chancellor, the Economic Secretary or the Financial Secretary. We should be delighted to hear any or all of them on this important matter.
    The Solicitor-General was very kind last year. He said that he would not deny our case at all on cultural grounds. He said that he could not do so. Indeed, he said that if he joined in a battle of this
    1154
    sort, he would lose immediately. He also said that there was only one reason why he could not give way to us last year; it was that he rested his case on the difficulty of exempting records, but not the gramophone itself and all the other articles in the group. What nonsense! I hope that no one is going to say that to us tonight. We have talked about it for a whole year, and it is not true. If we can take out television tubes and exempt them completely, why cannot we take the gramophone record off the gramophone and exempt it? It would be nonsense to use the argument which was used last year.
    I do not blame the Solicitor-General for arguing in that way. He had nothing else to say, and he felt exactly like the Chancellor and the Economic Secretary would feel if they were now sitting here and not in high office. They would be doing exactly the same thing as we are doing, because they, like us, believe it passionately. Nor must the Chancellor think that we have no sympathy with him in what he has to do each year in order to get money. I know that he has also some sympathy with us when we plead for this sort of thing on these grounds. We are asking him to face the fact that he does not have to wait until next year to offer us a remedy.
    We were most courteously received by the Economic Secretary and the Financial Secretary when we pleaded this case in the Treasury. I am not going to repeat what we said, or what was said in answer to us, because, obviously, we could not get a decision or a promise of any kind, but our reception was courteous, and for that we were very grateful. We spent a pleasant half-hour in the Treasury, but we do not want to go again. We want to get what we are asking for, so as not to trouble anybody any longer.
    There is no logical argument against this case. I know that logic is not necessary for taxation, but it is curious that there should be this discrimination by the Treasury as between the eye and the ear. The eye is not taxed at all anywhere. One can look at a Rembrandt worth half a million pounds or at a Cézanne worth £250,000 free in the National Gallery, and the pictures are bought for the public and paid for by the Chancellor. The eye is not taxed at all, but if the ear is made use of it is, apparently, thought to be a

    1155
    guilty instrument, and the Treasury comes forward and says, "We must tax it; you must not listen to anything without taxation." Why is a child allowed to look at a television screen and see things that are associated with violence and terror, and there is no tax, but if its parents wish to keep the child occupied in another direction and buy it a record or two of nursery rhymes, tax has to be paid on those records?
    I will not bore the Chancellor of the Exchequer with a long speech. There have been many attractive speeches made already. I am only sorry that the Chancellor missed some of them, particularly those that came from the benches behind him. The first and opening speech was from the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir H. Kerr), made in terms that will never be equalled in a speech by anyone like myself.
    Mr. Amory: I heard it.
    Dr. Stross: In that case I hardly think that any of us needs to say much more about it. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give us our case. We say to him, "Why tax education or recreation?" That is what it really comes to in many directions. Why is it that in Britain, of all countries, the tax is twice as high as similar taxation in any other country in the world? In France, the next highest to ourselves, it is 27½ per cent.; in Western Germany, 4 per cent.; in Switzerland, which says this is a luxury tax, it is only 5 per cent.; in the United States, it is 3 per cent. Why should this thriving industry, which does so well for us, have to bear this kind of disability?
    I am delighted to see my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) here. I am not sure whether he intends to speak on this subject or on an allied subject, pottery. My hon. Friend nods his head. I spoke on the subject on the Second Reading. I therefore need use only one or two sentences and say that the Chancellor should help the pottery industry, which is not unlike music, although it is a secondary art. The Chancellor could help the industry greatly in another way, if she will not reduce Purchase Tax. We feel that now the country has the money available the Purchase Tax should be abolished, but if the Chancellor of the Exchequer feels that he cannot abolish the tax he can help the industry tremendously
    1156
    by a simple administrative manoeuvre.
    The Chancellor could do this by not waiting until March or April to declare Purchase Tax changes but by letting the public know them in January. This would make all the difference in the world, because from January to March, until we know what Purchase Tax rates are going to be, our stocks mount up in the pottery industry. It is well known that 48 per cent. of our costs are for labour. We have to pay wages during that period of stocking up, when we cannot sell anything because we are waiting for three months to find out what the Chancellor intends to do. When the Christmas rush is over, say in mid-January, would be the right time for the right hon. Gentleman to be good enough to tell us what he proposes to do. That change would be as valuable as some remission of Purchase Tax.
    I think that I have said enough. I apologise. As we have a coalition or confederation on these matters, I felt that I was entitled to speak as I have.
    9.0 p.m.
    Dr. Donald Johnson: I am intervening in this debate for one purpose only, that is, if I may be permitted, so to speak, to sort the grain from the chaff in the speeches made by hon. Members opposite. I should like to echo the plea made by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stress), not in what he has just said so much as on the point he made earlier with reference to the removal of Purchase Tax from noninflammable clothing.
    I should like to have followed him in his last remarks, but I think that, despite his impassioned plea for music and the arts, even he will agree that this purpose is more important than the one he has just been talking about. Many hon. Members know that we have a non-party Home Safety Committee studying accidents in the home. I have the honour to be one of the joint chairmen of that Committee. One of the main anxieties of that Committee is in regard to the inflammability of clothing material. We are hoping that perhaps our efforts have been partly responsible for the steps taken which the hon. Member mentioned when he quoted from the letter from the British Medical Association, which I also have received.

    1157
    Among our activities we have seen and taken part in striking demonstrations of the burning of fabrics and clothing material which show quite clearly the very marked difference in inflammability of different fabrics used for clothing. They convince us without any doubt whatsoever of the effect of different kinds of clothing on accidents in the home. Flimsy and inflammable materials easily catch alight from open fires or electric tires, and so on, causing fatal and nonfatal, but serious, accidents.
    One of our main endeavours is to popularise and to get people to buy noninflammable clothing. One of our principal difficulties in this matter is the comparative expense of non-inflammable clothing compared with the more inflammable varieties of fabrics. Even such a small relief as taking off 5 per cent. would be of great help to us in our efforts. Even more than the actual effect on the price, it would help us in publicising the value of such clothing and generally help in our campaign. I hope that my right hon. Friend will very seriously consider removing this tax from non-inflammable clothing. If he cannot do so now, perhaps he will consider it very seriously on a future occasion.
    Apart from this one question, I wish to say how very much I support the rest of the Clause. Despite anything that has been said in this debate, the reduction in Purchase Tax will be greatly appreciated by the people.
    Mr. Tom Brown: I have listened to practically all the speeches in this debate, which so far has been a warning to the present Chancellor or to his successor that unless there is a change of approach to the question of Purchase Tax on musical instruments and gramophone records there will be a first-class row on the next occasion.
    In Lancashire, when a man is not so generous as he ought to be, we speak of him as being "skinny"—not thin physically but skinny. That is the word used if an individual does not act generously in the business which he or she is doing. The Chancellor. when he came to this part of his Budget, was in a skinny mood. He was not generous enough in reducing the tax upon gramophone records by 10 per cent.; he should have done more.
    1158
    Has the right hon. Gentleman ever thought of the effect on the life and culture of the community the abolition of the tax would have? I have had experience which has made me appreciate the importance of gramophone records for the mind and spirit of children in the schools. In 1927—I say this without any boast at all—I became chairman of a local education committee. This was long before anyone ever dreamed that there would be a tax on gramophone records. My job, apart from administration, was to control 11 elementary schools, a school population of 4,020, and a teaching staff of 109.
    We wanted to introduce folk dancing for the children in our schools. We could do this only by buying a gramophone and gramophone records so that the children could dance folk dances to the tunes played on the gramophone. The change which came over those children was remarkable. I shall never forget it as long as I live. The introduction of the gramophone and gramophone records played a large part in brightening the lives of those children.
    Today, in our booming prosperity, we continue to tax gramophone records. In my judgment, this is crazy. It reveals a lack of understanding of what people need. All of us who can afford it love to hear and enjoy good music, we love to hear great orchestras and bands which play from time to time to inspire us and fill us with enthusiasm. The only opportunity which some people in the industrial villages and towns of Lancashire and Yorkshire, and even farther a field, have of hearing good music comes through the gramophone. Yet we tax gramophone records. Although the Chancellor and the Economic Secretary may disagree with me, I know that what I say is true. If the Chancellor cannot do anything to help as we suggest, I hope that he or his successor will remember next April that there must be no tax at all on gramophone records.
    I could mention other articles included in Group 19, but there are other hon. Members who wish to speak about the tax and the important effect it has. I wish to make a plea—I have done it before, and I make no apology for doing it again—on behalf of the old folk. They enjoy their gramophone records and the little entertainment they gain from them. I go to the "Darby and Joan" clubs,

    1159
    the "Over-Sixty" clubs and the social welfare clubs, and I find there the real enjoyment that is experienced by old people, because they can gather together and listen to music played on gramophone records, which lifts them from their monotonous lives.
    There should never be a tax upon gramophone records. As I examine the commodities on which Purchase Tax is still imposed, I notice that the rate imposed on gramophone records is one of the highest. The highest Purchase Tax is upon culture and music. Never let it be said in this country that by our tax policy we will continue to tax the music that people enjoy.
    It is a point which should be taken into consideration by the Chancellor and not brushed idly aside in an easy-going manner by saying that we will take 10 per cent. off the Purchase Tax on gramophone records and musical instruments. That is not the way in which this country ought to pursue its policy of taxation. The easier we can make it for people, whether they be young or old, to enjoy culture and to enjoy their lives, the better it will be for this country as a whole.
    I want to refer to another section of the community, which I in my very humble way have tried to help to enjoy life. Perhaps there are not many hon. Members who have the fortune which I have of representing some people who have been victims of mining accidents. What about the paraplegic men? Arising from the terrible strain and dangers of work in the pits, nearly 600 paraplegic men in this country have to lie in bed. Those who are fortunate enough to rise from bed are wheeled about in wheelchairs. They cannot go to a theatre or go to hear a musical concert. The only way they can listen to good music is through the medium of gramophone records and the radiogram.
    Are we to deny those men that opportunity? Are we to make it more difficult for them to enjoy life? In Heaven's name, their life is one of monotony and dreariness. We should rise to the heights and determine that we will do anything which we can to help those men to enjoy life. A tax upon gramophone records and radiograms makes it more difficult for those unfortunate victims to have a little enjoyment and brightness from
    1160
    life. It does not reflect any credit upon the Government or the statesmen of this country that things like that exist in this country.
    I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman or his successor to seize the opportunity and determine once and for all that we will abolish this tax and put an end to the dissatisfaction and discontent which prevail in the minds of these people.
    I will give an illustration. The paraplegic men who are fortunate enough to get out of bed have to be wheeled if they go to a football or cricket match. Every football club, every cricket club and every athletic association makes provision on their playing fields to receive these men if they can be carried or wheeled there. We have instances of all this unbounded generosity manifested towards these men because of their unfortunate circumstances, and yet the Government, with their financial and taxation policy, make it difficult for them to enjoy the life which they ought to lead.
    In conclusion, the House of Commons ought never to stoop so low or be so mean as to tax the cultural and musical life of the people of this country. If we do, by a tax on musical instruments, we make a serious mistake, not only for the immediate present, but for the future and for the rising generation.
    9.15 p.m.
    Sir Wavell Wakefield: I do not want to repeat the very strong arguments put to the Chancellor from all sides for a reduction in Purchase Tax on sports equipment, musical instruments and gramophone records, but rather to concentrate on just one thing. Very large sums are spent by the Ministry of Education on teaching our young people to enjoy music. Large sums are spent on teaching them to play games. Large sums are spent by local authorities on the provision of playing fields and buildings for physical training and the like.
    What is the point of spending all this money on teaching young people to enjoy music, to play games and to take physical exercise, not only in their youth but as they grow older, if, at the same time, we are to make it as difficult as possible for them to do the very things that they have been urged to do, and trained to do, not only in their own interests but in the national interest?

    1161
    My right hon. Friend is a very sensible and practical man. He has had great experience of industry. As an industrialist, what would he think if he set about producing a good article, took great trouble to produce it satisfactorily, and then found that his selling organisation, instead of selling the article, did its utmost to prevent its sale? That is exactly what is happening here. Any industrialist who did that would be thought to be mad, but that is exactly what the Government are now doing.
    I therefore very strongly support my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) who, in a most admirable speech, asked the Chancellor to reconsider the whole basis of Purchase Tax revenue in relation to Government expenditure. I suggest that a very real reconsideration of the whole position should now be made. In the light of the large sums of taxpayers' money spent by the Ministry of Education and other Government Departments in various well-known ways, the Chancellor should justify to this Committee his reasons for retaining this tax. There should be some justification for this great anomaly.
    That is my only point, but I want to put it as forcefully as possible. I want to add my voice to the general plea made from all sides of the Committee for a review of this extremely anomalous Purchase Tax position.
    Mr. V. Yates: I have listened to all the speeches on the Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." I hope that the hon. Member for St. Marylebone (Sir W. Wakefield) will forgive me if I do not follow up his remarks, although agree with practically all that he said. I am sure that if Shakespeare had been listening during these last two hours he would have reminded us of the words:
    "If music be the food of love, play on.
    Give me excess of it;"
    We have had a considerable debate on music, but I want to switch the mind of the Committee to another important subject. Before doing so, I thank the Chancellor for what he has done in regard to the reduction of Purchase Tax. He knows that during the past few years I have been trying to persuade him that jewellery was not a luxury, and Purchase Tax on jewellery has been reduced. We discussed buttons last year and I shall not cease to congratulate him on the
    1162
    efforts that he has so far made to reduce Purchase Tax.
    There is, however, one case which I want to bring to his notice and which, I think, is of vital importance, because it concerns industry, employment and security of employment. The greater security we have in employment, the better will people be able to enjoy the pleasure afforded by the arts.
    I do not want to raise tonight the general question of motor cars, although I must say that I do not regard a motor car as a luxury. I think that we have a completely wrong conception about vital production in this country which is in the nation's interest. Jewellery and motor cars are vital to Britain's trade. The motor car is not a luxury so far as Birmingham is concerned. Birmingham's life is geared to the motor car industry, and in the recent depression it would have been a serious matter if the motor car industry had been affected like other industries. Everything which increases the efficiency of the industry or lowers costs or makes it possible for British motor car manufacturers and others to compete in the markets of the world is of vital importance, and I believe will, in the end, recompense the Chancellor by increasing revenue.
    I am making a special plea tonight for the cycle industry. I hope that the Chancellor, when he has to decide whether a bicycle is a luxury, will regard it in the same generous spirit as he did jewellery. On 20th May last year, I called the Chancellor's attention to the serious decline in the cycle industry and to the closing of factories which was a very serious matter for the Midlands, Birmingham, Smethwick and Nottingham. I then appealed for the need for some stimulus to production because of the declining export and home markets.
    When I mentioned that the home sales of bicycles had fallen from 1¼ million to about 1 million, what did the Government reply? The Paymaster-General, replying to the debate on an Amendment to reduce the tax on bicycles from 30 per cent. to 15 per cent., said:
    "Production for export fell from 2,364.000 bicycles in 1955 to 1,596.000 in 1957, which is a very big fall. On the other hand, production in the home market, which fell sharply between 1955 and 1956, went up between 1956 and 1957. The figures which I have are that

    1163
    production in the home market was 864.000 in 1956 and 948,000 in 1957. There are signs of a picking up in the figures "—
    Mr. Donald Chapman: Utter rubbish.
    Mr. Yates: —
    "which I have been given in the home demand for bicycles."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th May, 1958; Vol. 588, c. 1155.]
    I ask the Chancellor to note that what the Paymaster-General was saying was that in 1957 the figure had gone up to 948,000 and that there were signs of a picking up.
    What is the position today? Only this morning, hon. Members have received an authoritative statement from the British Cycle and Motor Cycle Industries Association that units of production, which in 1951 were 4 million and in 1955, 3,564,000, had fallen in 1958 to 2,156,000. The statement continues:
    "The main reason for this decline has been the closing of many export markets, intense competition in others and a contraction in the home market. Home sales of bicycles are at present at a lower level than pre-war. The average figure for the immediate pre-war years was between 1¼ million and 1½ million. The 1958 figure was only 800,000."
    If the Chancellor and the Paymaster-General believe that the cycle industry was making progress, is it not a serious matter that it has gone right down?
    The Question which is now before the Committee affords us no means whatever of rectifying the position. We cannot ask the Chancellor to give the industry a special "shot in the arm". It would be out of order to do so. Therefore, I have no alternative but to ask the Chancellor what he proposes to do. It cannot be argued that the Government were not later aware of the position, because on 20th January last the British Cycle and Motor Cycle Industries Association forwarded a letter to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who, I am sorry, is not in his place. That letter was perfectly clear and I will quote only two passages from it. It says:
    "The decline in production and home sales has continued and the latest available figures show that the total bicycle production in the eleven months to 30th November, 1958, was 1,965,000 units, compared with 2,333,000 units in the same period of 1957. This represents a decrease of almost 16 per cent. The home sales figures show a very similar decline, being some 16½ per cent. down in 1958 compared with 1957."
    1164
    Those facts were put to the Chancellor in January.
    The employment situation causes concern to myself, representing an industrial constituency that is affected, and to hon. Members who represent other constituencies in Birmingham.
    9.30 p.m.
    On the employment situation the letter states:
    "&this continues to deteriorate and you will no doubt have seen announcements of fresh redundancies only last week. The depletion of executive staffs is in no sense complete, and in referring to redundancy I must respectfully draw your attention to the great and human problems involved. It would be quite wrong to imagine that these work-people are readily able to find comparable jobs in the vicinity, for in a great many cases redundancy has affected men with a lifetime of experience in the cycle industry and with little or no qualifications for other trades."
    The Chancellor had that information then about the serious position of the industry.
    But even since the Budget another organisation, the National Organisation of Cycle Traders, has written to me and said:
    "If ever an industry needed a 'shot in the arm ' at this particular time, it was surely the British bicycle industry, acutely depressed as it is in the home market and beset by the most intense and ever-increasing world competition in the export sphere & I regret to inform you that there are, as yet, no signs of real improvement, neither is it considered within the trade that the 5 per cent. reduction in Purchase Tax will be sufficient to give that stimulus which the trade so sorely needs in its home market and on which a healthier export business so vitally depends. The position of the industry remains desperately serious."
    That is the case I put to the Chancellor tonight.
    The right hon. Gentleman must be aware that 90 per cent. of this home trade is not in luxuries. It is a vital necessity. We have been informed today that there are likely to be increases in railway fares. The average worker finds that his bicycle is a tool of his industry. It is a necessity and it should not be taxed. I ask the Chancellor for some undertaking in this matter. I do not think that we can wait until the next Budget. This is a case for emergency action, but the Chancellor has admitted that I cannot move an Amendment tonight.
    I am certain that with these facts before him the right hon. Gentleman will give the matter the urgent and vital consideration that it warrants. I hope that he will be as big and generous as he has been

    1165
    on previous occasions and will come to the rescue of a vitally important industry. I hope that he will help us to prevent this recession going further, to do something to improve the livelihood of those who have spent years in the industry, and to make it possible for the workers to enjoy all the privileges of life to which they are entitled.
    Mr. William Hannan (Glasgow, Mary-hill): Much as I agree with what my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. V. Yates) has said, I should like to bring the debate back to the Purchase Tax on musical instruments. My hon. Friend said that last year the Chancellor had paid some attention to his plea on behalf of the jewellery trade. I am reminded of the Greek mother's reply to the Roman soldier who asked for her jewellery. Putting her arms round her children, she said, "These are my jewels".
    It is for the children and their interest in music and musical instruments that I want to make a plea tonight. If the Chancellor had paid attention last year to representations made to him by a deputation of which I had the privilege to be a member he would have exempted musical instruments completely from Purchase Tax. In logic and in justice no case can be sustained for the tax on musical instruments.
    During the Easter holidays I had the privilege of attending a school in Glasgow. I ask the Chancellor and the Committee to accept what I am about to say as being a fact. It was an experience which lifted me and charmed me and will remain with me for a long time. During the school holidays there was a complete orchestra of children who sacrificed their time, morning and afternoon in going to Hillhead High School and learning to play together on musical instruments.
    This, in the first place, taught them some of the elementary facts of music and also how to co-operate in making beautiful sounds. Taken singly, not one of the instrumentalists would have found anyone in his home who would find enjoyment in listening to him practising by himself, but, in co-operation with his other young comrades at school, he was learning how to produce beautiful sounds.
    Only last week, in Glasgow, every afternoon and evening, young people were
    1166
    going along to their musical festival. I wish the Chancellor could have heard the young man I listened to on Saturday night. He was 12 years of age and played magnificently one of Beethoven's sonatas, accompanied by his sister on the piano. This was sufficient to convince me that if it were only to allow one young boy not to be handicapped in the purchase of musical instruments, it would be worth while to do what we ask.
    The Arts Council gives grants of £560,000 a year for musical appreciation and education, and much of that is going in the payment of Purchase Tax. So we give with the one hand and take back with the other. Last year, for a few moments, I attempted to explain to the House some of the more outstanding faults of the tax on musical instruments such as bridges for violins, violin strings and reeds for musical instruments, all of which bear tax out of all proportion to the great benefit which music can bring to the education of children.
    Last year we also attempted to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that whereas there is a tax on musical instruments, the finest and most delicate musical instrument of all is left untaxed —the human voice. I said then that I was not encouraging the Treasury to seek a new source of income, but was suggesting that because it takes as much skill to produce musical sounds from musical instruments as it does from the human voice at least the instruments should be exempted from tax.
    Those who have listened in recent times to the national contest over the B.B.C. "Let the People Sing", will have recognised, as we who come from Scotland have been glad to realise, that three Scottish choirs have taken first place in the five classes in that competition. I mention this in the sense that there was an indication in that national contest of 140 choirs that young potential musicians will be encouraged or discouraged according to the amount they will have to pay by way of Purchase Tax on musical instruments.
    I conclude by pleading most sincerely with the Chancellor to review Purchase Tax on musical instruments. Let the young people have access to that which will encourage the good and beautiful in life, putting aside the mean and sordid. As a civilised people this is surely a thing

    1167
    we want to achieve. It is to that that I implore the Chancellor to direct his attention.
    Dr. Horace King: This Clause continues, even if it reduces, some really indefensible impositions of Purchase Tax, and I want to address the Committee on two of these, one of which has not yet been mentioned. I want, then, first to refer to Purchase Tax on stationery.
    I pray in aid for this supporters and Members of the present Government, including one sitting on the Treasury Bench now, who in the past have denounced Purchase Tax. In the debate we had on 14th February, 1951, the Economic Secretary, the hon. Gentleman the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Erroll), said:
    "I think all of us, including the Chancellor, are agreed that the taxation of business stationery is inflationary & Some £23 million a year is added to the total cost of making industry function."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th February, 1951; Vol. 484, c. 558.]
    The figure now is some £38 million a year.
    In the same debate the then Member for Weston-super-Mare, called the Purchase Tax on stationery a
    "tax on the raw materials of industry."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th February, 1951: Vol. 484, c. 568.]
    Then another supporter of the present Government, who was at that time in the Opposition, a Member whom everybody in the Committee loved, Ralph Assheton, said that this tax
    "is a great waste of manpower & is undoubtedly inflationary & and is a direct tax on production. We believe this particular Purchase tax is a bad tax and that it should be removed."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th February, 1951; Vol. 484, c. 575–7.]
    After such representative opinion from the Government benches, it is hardly necessary to argue the case any further.
    In the same debate my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), who was replying for us on our side, who were then in the Government, was not able to say a single word in defence of the principle of imposing Purchase Tax on stationery. I seriously doubt whether this particular Purchase Tax has a single supporter in the Committee, apart from Treasury Ministers.
    1168
    It is a burden on education and on local education authorities. It makes education costs heavier by artificially inflating those education expenses which are borne by the local authorities. Of the tax 95 per cent. is borne by the Government or by local government departments, by manufacturers, by the distributive trades, by financial business and by education, only 5 per cent. of it by private individuals. I would appeal to the Chancellor to give serious consideration to removing this utterly indefensible burden on many important aspects of British life.
    Having said that, I want to return to what I am happy to find has been the main theme of this debate, the fact that we are still by this Clause continuing a tax on culture. This Chancellor, in spite of the pleas which many of us made to him last year, joins the long line of Philistine Chancellors. In this he has shown, by the concession he has given on beer, that he puts beer before Beethoven, and, if my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Dugdale) is right, he has put mink before Mozart.
    We are the only nation to tax music on this scale. Other nations subsidise it. I know that we pay a pitiful subsidy to the arts, I understand totalling about £1 million, but that £1 million comes out of the £50 million which we raise in Purchase Tax on music in one form and another.
    9.45 p.m.
    I share the pride expressed by speaker after speaker in the debate in the development and the increase throughout the land of appreciation of good music. I think, for example, of the hundreds of teenagers in raptures on the last night of the Promenade Concerts of last year. Many other examples have been mentioned during the debate. The British Broadcasting Corporation has played a magnificent part in building up the standard of musical appreciation. So have our schools, our school orchestras, our classes in musical appreciation throughout the educational system, local authorities which subsidise symphony orchestras, the gramophone companies whose records are one of the main topics of tonight's debate and which, incidentally, do what many distinguished actors have done in the past, subsidise themselves the production of good musical records by the profits which they make on much more popular bad

    1169
    musical records, so has the British composer and so has the average artisan musician, the workaday member of the symphony orchestra. All these have played a part in making Britain more musically educated than ever before and in giving to all our people a source of rich and deep wealth in their leisure time.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. V. Yates) brought Shakespeare into this. I know that the Chancellor is very fond of Shakespeare and quoted Shakespeare to us in his reply to last year's debate. An appropriate quotation from Shakespeare would be what Caliban said in The Tempest:
    "The isle is full of noises,
    Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight, and hurt not."
    Unfortunately, every sound and sweet air which we have in our own beautiful island is taxed by the Chancellor.
    I think that today more Britons know more about good music than ever in the history of the country, but they still have to pay too much for their gramophone records, largely because of this heavy imposition of 50 per cent. Purchase Tax. The only time in my life that I was really tempted to smuggle was when I was in East Berlin and saw the magnificent and cheap records produced by the Communist States, in their deliberate subsidising of good music for the people.
    High fidelity reproduction is bringing real music of extraordinary quality into almost every home, and the great mass of our people are steadily accumulating record libraries. However, Purchase Tax is slowing the tremendously useful and educative process of building up the private libraries in the homes of our people. The first stage is obviously to hear good music. The second stage is to select and to buy for oneself so that one can enjoy again and again the performance of that piece of music which one had learned to love and appreciate, just like books in one's own library as compared with books in the public library. Purchase Tax is standing in the way of that enormous musical development.
    Mr. J. T. Price: While there is no doubt a case for freeing musical recordings of real music, surely my hon. Friend is not suggesting that scores of millions of "pop" records, which are an abomination, should be free
    1170
    of tax. Personally, I would double the tax on some of them.
    Dr. King: I rarely disagree with my hon. Friend, but I share the view expressed again and again in the debate that, just as one has the right to form one's own taste and to build up one's private library of books, so we must preserve the same right to build up one's musical library and enjoy one's music of one's own choice.
    I share the personal dislike of my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. J. T. Price) for much of the popular music of today. But that is my own business and those who like it have a similar right to enjoy the kind of music that they like. In many young folk that I know the beginning of a library has started with records by a crooner and has ended with a symphony or a concerto.
    Our schools are teaching musical appreciation and our musical colleges are training young professional musicians. One of the most powerful and wonderful instruments for the teacher is the gramophone record which can be used as an illustration. I recently spoke to a member of one of the local authorities who had ordered a number of records for the schools in his area far its musical library. He placed an order for 1,000 records. It could have been an order for 1,500 long-playing records had it not been for the incidence of Purchase Tax.
    I thought we had converted the Chancellor last year about the tax on musical instruments. Musicians today are struggling for a livelihood. It is true that in this field, as in so many others, the supreme artist can make a fortune. All the resources of modern 'mechanical reproduction help the supreme artists but they are a menace to the workaday musician and every ordinary performer in the world of instrumental music is almost fighting for his life. There is not an orchestra in the country which is out of the red, yet we seek in this Clause to continue to tax the tools with which the instrumentalist earns his living. Without the rank and file musician the whole edifice that we are building, thanks to modern mechanical aids, could collapse. The disappearance of the great symphony orchestras and the interference in training of young people who will ultimately go into these orchestras is something which the Chancellor ought to be worried about.

    1171
    I think that the wonderful gift of the sciences to the arts today is that in the most remote corner of Britain—and indeed, once in my own case even in a remote corner of Africa—one can sit down and hear on a record almost perfectly reproduced the music of the great masters. Purchase Tax stands in the way of a development which, in spite of Purchase Tax, will continue, but without the imposition of Purchase Tax it might take place at a much more rapid rate. If the House will do what I am certain hon. Members on both sides of the Committee want the Government to do and remove the tax on music, it may be that some poor young child buying his first violin today and paying tax on it may, when he becomes a Kreisler of another generation live to thank the Chancellor who removed the Purchase Tax on his first violin.
    I pray in aid of the plea that we are moving tonight perhaps the greatest writer of our century who was also a great musical critic and tells us that at one time he might have become a musician—George Bernard Shaw. Appealing to the then Chancellor in 1942 he said:
    "Musical instruments are among the first necessities of civilised life and not luxuries to be made unobtainable by Purchase Tax."
    In a peroration which any hon. Member except the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Sir W. Churchill) would envy, he wrote in his letter to The Times:
    "The notion that not only the players in the B.B.C. and the London Philharmonic Orchestras but in the brass bands of the Salvation Army and the factory and colliery bands which competed every year at the Crystal Palace. the best of them being of first-rate artistic qualities are extravagant voluptuaries whose instruments may be classed with blue diamond rings and dispensed on the smallest provocation betrays a breath-bereaving cultural and social ignorance. I hope that all the bands in London will hasten to Westminster Hall to do to the House of Commons what Joshua's trumpeters did to the walls of Jericho rather than let the Bill pass without protest."
    In that spirit hon. Members on both sides of the Committee make a protest to the Chancellor.
    Mr. Paul Williams: The Purchase Tax scales are nonsense and can be made to look nonsense by most people. One could drive a horse
    1172
    and cart through most of the provisions. The point of our debate is that these scales are a fact of life and it is necessary to balance the present situation with the probability of achieving tax reductions over the coming year. I hope that Purchase Tax reductions may be based on two assumptions; first, that they be made possible on those articles which are necessities of life, and secondly, that they can be effected where it will help to maintain a high and stable level of employment.
    I take particular note of the Amendment referring to domestic tableware, kitchen ware and toilet ware. That is a category of goods of vital necessity in life. However much we may argue about bicycles, gramophone records, fiddles, euphoniums and the rest, and about footballs of whatever shape, there is nothing so important as some of those things mentioned in that Amendment. If this debate is to have any reality, we must think in terms of putting constructive points to the Chancellor which might form the basis of tax reductions in next year's Budget. That is why I hope that hon. Members will refer particularly to the necessities of life.
    I have a constituency interest in that one of the manufacturers of domestic tableware operates in Sunderland. Messrs. Jobling manufacture Pyrex Glass, which is known throughout the world. This firm and others have been hit by the incidence of Purchase Tax and their sales restricted to a certain degree. By stressing the need to remove the tax from the necessities of life and the fact that this is a matter of great importance in the promotion of employment in my constituency, I hope that I have given sufficient warning to my right hon. Friend that this is a matter which must be thought about before next year's Budget statement. I have no great hopes about this year.
    Mrs. Slater: We are grateful for the support of the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) in our plea for the reduction of the tax on household commodities. I can plead a constituency interest as I and my hon. Friends from Stoke-on-Trent represent the pottery area of North Staffordshire. We consider that some of the most beautiful china and crockery in the world is made in our district. Although the tax upon it has

    1173
    been reduced, it is still one we would much rather see removed altogether in the interests of the industry and also the housewives whom we wish to encourage to use the most beautiful crockery it is possible to get.
    Next year is the jubilee year for the City of Stoke-on-Trent and we shall be receiving visitors, we hope, from all parts of the world, as well as hon. Members of this House. We had hoped that when we were showing our beautiful crockery, our civic ware, when our shops and factories will be on display to all the visitors who come to the city, we should have been able to say, after the Budget of this year, that the Government had recognised the need of the women in the home and of the industry itself and had removed the whole of the Purchase Tax.
    10.0 p.m.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross), who always makes beautiful speeches, referred on Second Reading to our civic china, and invited the Chancellor of the Exchequer to take lunch or dinner off it. We hope that he will do that. My hon. Friend also referred in his speech to some of the pottery which we use in this House, and here again I claim a vested interest, because it comes from my own constituency. I should like to point out that the designs and standards of that earthenware are dictated by how much this House, or the Kitchen Committee and the people responsible, are prepared to pay for it. I have here a list of designs of pottery which is produced in that factory, and it shows a wide variety of design and very high quality. I have a special interest in that firm, in so far as my own father was the fireman of the biscuit and gloss ovens in that particular factory for a number of years.
    I should like to put on record the fact that we should like to see in the House of Commons, for use on very important occasions, some really first-class china, though we recognise that it would not be possible to have such china for everyday use. We should like to see, however, a slightly better design for the cups and saucers which we now use.
    Dr. Stross: Would my hon. Friend agree that if we cannot afford the very best quality and design in pottery for ourselves in the Tea Room, or in our Dining
    1174
    Room, we might at least afford it where the whole world comes—the Strangers' Dining Room?
    Mrs. Slater: I thought that that was the point that I was trying to make—that we should have some first-class china for special visitors and special occasions, just as in our City of Stoke-on-Trent we have our civic china which is used in the Town Hall.
    I should also like to see a very much better design of the pottery which we ourselves have to use. After all, those of us who come from Stoke-on-Trent know how much better a cup of tea tastes if we have nice cups and saucers, rather than the somewhat thick, ordinary ones.
    Sir Godfrey Nicholson: Perhaps the hon. Lady will get some for the House.
    Mrs. Slater: I am not well enough off to afford it, but perhaps if I could encourage the hon. Gentleman to get me some money I might be able to do it.
    May I say to the Chancellor that a reduction of 2½ per cent. in the tax on a china cup and saucer which one can see in any shop in London amounts to only 2d. or 2½d. on a cup and saucer priced at 7s. 6d., which is what the normal person would be likely to buy for everyday use.
    The debate tonight on Purchase Tax has shown how very easy it is to get some sense of co-operation from both sides of the Committee when we come to discuss matters such as culture, and I have been greatly encouraged tonight by the attitude of mind of hon. Members on both sides in approaching the question of the Purchase Tax on musical instruments and gramophone records.
    As one goes about the country, one realises, despite the Press and the B.B.C., that not every young person is a Teddy boy and not every child at school is irresponsible, but that among our young folks we have a large percentage who are doing their very best to appreciate good music, good art, good pictures, and good drama.
    In winding up the debate on the Second Reading of the Bill the Chancellor said, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South, that if he came to Stoke-on-Trent he hoped that the people of North Staffordshire would sing to him. I can assure the right hon.

    1175
    Gentleman that if he did so we could not only sing to him, but that our orchestra and our school children could put on a first-class concert for him. But these children cannot do it if they have not the facilities, such as instruments, which are necessary. If ever there was a real case for the abolition of Purchase. Tax it is in respect of musical instruments and gramophone records, on that side of culture which brings out the best in the lives of people.
    I would mention one other matter briefly, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) referred, and that is the passing on of reductions in Purchase Tax to the consumer. I said something on this subject last year. I have a list, which has been supplied to me, of cosmetics. It shows that some firms making proprietary goods which are used by a large number of people have not passed on Purchase Tax reductions to the consumer.
    There is one large firm which does much advertising in this country. Two of its most popular articles are a cream and powderpuff which women use, and a shaving cream, a lazy-shave or easy-shave preparation, for men. In neither of these cases has reduction in Purchase Tax been passed on to the consumer. I would like the Treasury to check up on this matter, because this is often happening where medical goods and goods of this sort are concerned. It is most unfair that the Chancellor should announce a reduction and that the chemists, after reducing prices on the day of the Budget and the next day, should then receive a notice from the suppliers showing that no reduction is to be made. The argument is that the cost of the goods went up just before the Budget. I hope that this argument will not be tolerated this year.
    We plead for a reduction of Purchase Tax on things which create and encourage culture. We ask that the Chancellor shall be a little more ready to take the tax off household commodities such as crockery and other things which the housewife uses. We hope that she will be encouraged to use beautiful things so that she will not only have usefulness, but will enjoy beauty as well.
    Mr. Julius Silverman: I wish to make a brief speech on the subject of the cycle industry, to
    1176
    which my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. V. Yates) has already referred.
    The Chancellor has in front of him a number of requests for reduction in Purchase Tax. I do not consider them to be competitive, because if he granted all the requests they would not cost him very much. The cycle industry is important. During the last two years it has declined and is now producing only about half of what it did. Factories have been closed and workers have gone into other industries. Skills and crafts have been dissipated. This is going on year by year. There is a continual reduction.
    At present, production of bicycles for home use is less than it was before the war, and there is no doubt that the question of price, increased as it is by Purchase Tax, is the factor responsible. Here is an industry which I am sure a concession would do much to assist. It would be just for various reasons, and firstly because the industry needs it. It is an industry working at less than 50 per cent. of capacity. It is an industry which has added much to the export drive in the past and may in the future, provided it is based on a sound home trade. In the second case, people who would get the benefit of a tax reduction, those who ride bicycles, are the people who for the most part have not been touched by other benefits distributed to Income Tax payers and others in this Budget.
    Here is a class of people comprising many hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, many of whom are getting little out of the Budget, whom the Chancellor could benefit and at the same time help to stimulate the industry itself. As has already been said, the bicycle is in a category of its own in tax matters. It is a tool of the trade rather than an article used for sport or leisure. It is used for the purpose of getting to or from work. It is used in the same way as a worker uses a tool, as an accessory to a job. For all these reasons, this is a clear case in which there should be a reduction of tax.
    If the Chancellor feels that he has any money to distribute, here is a case he should seriously consider. If he wants to stimulate British industry, it is this sort of industry in which a concession would do very much to give practical assistance and it would prevent a further recession

    1177
    in what, if we are not careful, may be a dying industry, losing ills plant and export trade in future. I hope the Chancellor will consider this question seriously to see whether he can reduce the tax to a low level, or preferably—I think there is a good ease for this—abolish the tax completely.
    Mr. Chapman: After listening to seven or eight Budgets and sitting through the Purchase Tax debates on them, I have come to one conclusion, which is borne out by the one major concession given in this Clause—the concession to abolish Purchase Tax on commercial vehicle chassis.
    I would say to the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. P. Williams) and the hon. Lady for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward), if she were back in her place, that the lesson of these debates throughout these years is that we shall not get concession in response to any of these major crying needs for Purchase Tax reduction until some hon. Members opposite are willing to threaten a revolt and to go into the Lobby with us. That is the whole lesson of the abolition of tax on the commercial vehicle chassis. We got the concession because, last year, it became quite clear that the Government could not hold their Lobby on that issue this year.
    10.15 p.m.
    We say to hon. Members opposite that theirs is the major responsibility in nearly all these difficult problems of Purchase Tax. If they would support some of the pleas which are made as far as the Division Lobby or, at least, threaten that they will not next year go into the Lobby for the Government, we should have some action. It is no good hon. Members opposite making pious pleas for this or that and then going into the Division Lobby for the Government afterwards. That does not out any ice with the Front Bench. We proved that with commercial vehicle chassis.
    I want to say something about bicycles. The real person who should accept responsibility for the debate having to take place this year is the Paymaster-General. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. V. Yates) pointed out what had been the argument we had from the right hon. Gentleman last year. He had a new brief, he had new facts; he knew about
    1178
    the industry. It was picking up again, and there was no need for the cry which had been raised from the Opposition benches. Things were much better, so he said, than our miserable speeches made out. On that ground, he said there would be no concessions from the Government.
    The fact is that his figures were all wrong. He misled the House. I am sure it was not intentional, but goodness knows where he found his figures. He misled the House into believing that prosperity was returning to the industry and, on that ground, he told us not to press for a tax reduction. It is really disgraceful that this sort of thing should happen. He must have been aware of the decline in the industry. He must be aware now that four firms have gone into liquidation and that five others have been absorbed by competitors in an effort to keep their name going. He must be aware that the ones which are still in production have declared substantial redundancies and they are all on short time. This is the industry which the right hon. Gentleman told us last year was picking up. He said that we were making our miserable speeches for nothing. It is really too bad.
    The fact is that the industry estimates that, if it could be freed from Purchase Tax, it would recover its home sales from the present 750,000 to 1¼ million to 1½ million. This is life and bread and butter to many people. If we could only have such a concession, a few more firms might be saved from liquidation. Moreover, if it is true, on the one hand, that the effect of relief from tax would give such a spurt in home sales, it is equally true, on the other hand, that the tax itself is murdering the industry. It ought to be put on record that the Government were complacent last year and said that the situation was improving, for some reason best known only to themselves.
    I say again to the hon. Member for Sunderland, South that he ought to pick on one or two issues of this kind. There ought to be a few back benchers on both sides prepared to stand up for a cause of this sort as we did for commercial vehicle chassis. Let us pick something like bicycles or gramophone records and really force the Government to do something as they did for commercial vehicle chassis. Hon. Members should say that if nothing is done they will not go into

    1179
    the Lobby to support the Government. If they have that courage—I think many of them would have it if it were put to them straight—and we could pick out two or three cases of crying need, we should not have these dreary debates on Purchase Tax every year. We should have some concessions on one or two common sense subjects.
    Mr. P. Williams: We have had some.
    Mr. Chapman: That is not so. The hon. Gentleman should pick out one or two which really matter, if he says that. Can he tell me of any industry or commodity where it has been shown that sales are being killed in this way and something has been done?
    Mr. Geoffrey Wilson: What effect is the increased sale of mopeds and scooters having on the cycle industry? Is it not increased prosperity which is working to the detriment of the cycle industry rather than taxation?
    Mr. P. Williams: The hon. Gentleman must not carry himself too far on the basis of his own evidence. There have been some Purchase Tax reductions this year.
    Mr. Chapman: Of course there have, but what I am saying is that we shall not make any real impact on the industries in difficulties until we have some really substantial reductions in the tax which is now murdering them. After all, we have done it on commercial vehicle chassis, not that that industry was being murdered, but it was such an obvious case for us all to fight together.
    To answer the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. G. Wilson), it is true that mopeds are having that effect. The cycle industry is aware of it and does not disguise it. The cycle industry says that even the introduction of its own moped, which is coming along now, will not be enough and that its export trade in ordinary cycles, for example, is in jeopardy because of the artificial reduction in the home market. If the industry could get it back to the £1¼ to £1½ million which it thinks the abolition of tax will mean, that would help it in the export market of ordinary cycles, which it is losing now, and in itself it would mean a better livelihood for many of the factories. The cycle industry does not dismiss the point
    1180
    raised by the hon. Gentleman, but it has its answer to it, and it is an answer which is well known to the Treasury bench.
    Year after year we sit here and hear these pious pleas from the benches opposite. Only if some hon. Members on the Tory back benches will join with us on this side of the Committee in saying that we will pick on one or two, go for them this year and make up our minds to get a concession shall we get somewhere. Otherwise these debates go on every year and we are disappointed at the end of the day. It is time for a little courage to be shown on both sides on one or two of these issues.
    Mr. James Simmons: This has been a kind of liquorice all sorts debate. At one moment we were soaring up in the stratosphere of music and culture. We sounded the trumpet at the pearly gates. Then we came down to the humble bicycle. I want to get right down amongst the pots and pans.
    The pots and pans are the one issue upon which the Committee ought to be throughly ashamed of itself. In 1955, after an election in which the Government told the housewife that, if only she would return them, they would make her £ buy more when she went shopping and they would mend the hole in her purse or pocket, they put a tax of 30 per cent. on pots and pans. That was for the housewives whom they had cajoled and kidded into voting for them on the plea that they would make life easier for them.
    Then the tax was reduced to 15 per cent. Now we come to a further miserable Scrooge-like reduction of 2½ per cent., bringing the tax down to 12½ per cent., for which the Government expect the housewife to go on her knees and say, "Thank you very much." I hope that the housewives will tell the Government, in good housewifely language, what they think about them for continuing in operation this infamous tax upon these very important domestic articles.
    I am concerned mainly about the enamel hollow-ware trade, and especially about the vitreous enamel hollow-ware trade, which is a very small industry. I do not think that because the industry is small we ought to overlook it in our Budget debates. Some of the small industries make a very great contribution to the life of the nation. There are only

    1181
    four sizable firms in the vitreous enamel hollow-ware industry. Two of them are in South Wales. One is in the constituency of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. A. Henderson). The other is in my own constituency. They are firms which have suffered as a result of carrying out Government instructions during the war and concentrating upon production for the export market. They are now trying to win back their home market, but regard this 2½ per cent. reduction as an insult.
    An increase in the home market is essential to maintain full employment. It is a small industry, but the firms in it have tried to help themselves. When an industry does that it should receive further help from the Treasury. The firms have formed themselves into the hollowware division of the Vitreous Enamel Development Council, which has undertaken an extensive sales promotion and advertising scheme costing no less than £40,000 per annum. The initiative and enterprise shown in developing plastics, etc., has brought about a slight increase in employment in the last two years, and the Treasury apparently thought, "They are all right. Employment is going up." But redundancy is reappearing. Some reduction in the Purchase Tax is absolutely necessary if the full home market is to be regained.
    Those of my hon. Friends who have spoken of the pottery industry have been talking about beautifying the home. I quite agree that we want beautiful things there. The kitchen is the housewife's workshop, and she should have the best tools to use in that workshop and the best surroundings in which to work. The day of the dull-looking enamel bucket, saucepan and frying pan has gone. These firms produce vitreous enamel utensils in different shades and the housewife can have them to tone with the colour scheme of her kitchen. They bring brightness to the home, and ease to the housewife's life. Therefore, we should seek to abolish the Purchase Tax on these domestic articles.
    Not the least of the difficulties encountered by the industry is unfair competition from Hong Kong, that notorious place of which we should be thoroughly
    1182
    ashamed. During the year a very small quantity of vitreous enamel-ware has been imported into this country at fantastically low prices. I am not exaggerating this. It has been only a very small importation, but the trickle may become a flood, and that is what the industry fears. In 1950 imports of Hong Kong enamel-ware into Nigeria were negligible, but total imports of enamel-ware had, by 1958, grown to £2½ million of which £1¾ million worth came from Hong Kong. It should be remembered that Nigeria is one of the industry's export markets, but it has been largely taken away by Hong Kong's competition.
    It is impossible for us to alter the Purchase Tax rate shown in this Finance Bill, but I understand that the imposition of Purchase Tax does not depend on the Finance Bill. It can be done by Order. Because we have to speak of all these problems en bloc on the Question, That the Clause stand part of the Bill, I ask the Chancellor, in his quieter moments, when the heat of battle is cooled arid he is resting in his tent—perhaps waiting for the next fray at the hustings—to read this debate carefully, and to see whether, in between Finance Bills, he cannot do something for those industries that have an especially urgent case.
    10.30 p.m.
    I believe that the hollow-ware trade is having consultations with the Board of Trade. We hope that there is proper liaison between Government Departments. Some doubt has been cast in the course of the debate on that being so in various instances. One wonders how much liaison there was between the Home Office, in its concern over juvenile delinquency, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he took 2d. off the price of a pint of beer. We certainly hope that there is proper liaison between Government Departments in this case.
    I ask the Chancellor to watch the consultations which are now going on between the Board of Trade and the hollow-ware industry. If, after those consultations, he feels that there is a case for a reduction and even possibly the abolition of Purchase Tax on vitreous enamel hollow-ware I hope that he will not hesitate to bring in an order to that effect, which we should all support.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: I want to confine my remarks to one commodity which is manufactured in an area where there are thousands of workers who are among the most hard-working and decent-living people in the country. There is complete unanimity among my hon. Friends, among hon. Members of all parties representing the North Staffordshire, and all sections of the community, on what I am about to say about the pottery industry.
    We who represent that area have been elected for many years and have enjoyed the complete confidence of the working class, in particular, and of people who do not necessarily agree with us politically. We are determined so to conduct ourselves outside the House of Commons, and speak with courage on their behalf in this Committee, as to enjoy that confidence as long as we represent those who have elected us.
    We should have been lacking in our duty had we not stated clearly and coolly, and in as simple language as possible, our grievance against all Governments who have perpetuated this Purchase Tax, which has developed into a revenue-raising tax, on the productive industry in the area which we represent. There has been complete agreement in the pottery industry for four years that Purchase Tax should have been removed long ago at least from domestic pottery.
    We have been encouraged by support from hon. Members opposite and we do not complain that because of procedural limitations we are not permitted to move Amendments. We are not complaining, but acting within our Parliamentary rights in stating the case. We hope that between now and the next Budget that case may be given the consideration which is due to it. A newspaper circulating in the area with which I am concerned, and one which opposes this side of the Committee politically, has published excellent objective articles analysing the case in the way in which I shall present it and supporting our plea for the abolition of this revenue-raising tax. The present Minister of Labour, the Minister of Fuel and Power, the Economic Secretary to the Treasury and the Chancellor's immediate predecessor have visited the area.
    They have all met their friends the manufacturers in that area in private, and, while we do not know what went
    1184
    on, according to reports in the local Press they all expressed their sympathy with the plea presented about the need for the abolition of Purchase Tax on pottery. We welcome their sympathy, but tonight we are asking: when will that sympathetic consideration be implemented by the abolition of the discouraging, discriminating tax upon the most lovely pottery manufactured in the world?
    The Chancellor said last week that we must keep prices down, and, within limits, we accept that. It is, then, logical to ask the Chancellor when the Government intend to take the initiative by removing this discriminating revenue-raising tax. Let the Government take this revenue-raising tax off all goods manufactured by industries which export 40 per cent. of their products.
    I want to ask the Chancellor two or three questions and I want him to answer them when he replies to the debate. Does he still desire that the pottery industry should export the maximum amount of pottery manufacturers? Does he want those exports increased? If so, if the industry gives an undertaking that it will carry through an intensified export drive, especially where our best markets are, in the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and all those countries which make up our Commonwealth, many of which are among our best friends, will he give an undertaking tonight that he will take the tax off the pottery industry?
    It may be that there are hon. Members, especially on the other side of the Committee, who are not prepared to accept my line of reasoning. If there are, I want to give one or two quotations in support of the plea I am making by reading brief extracts from the Scotsman, which reported the speech of the chairman of the United Glass Company at its annual meeting on 7th May—last week. He said:
    "We are deeply disappointed that the Budget proposals covered merely a small reduction in Purchase Tax. With such a low priced but essential domestic requirement a reduction of tax from 15 per cent. to 12½ per cent, has a negligible impact on price to the ultimate user. We feel strongly that it would be helpful to industry if changes in Purchase Tax were divorced from the Budget."
    When my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross), who has a great record in the area and is so

    1185
    well informed, was speaking I remembered that annual meeting which was addressed by political friends of the Chancellor and of right hon. and hon. Members opposite. I think that we ought to be given an undertaking upon these matters.
    Twice in my lifetime I have seen the pottery and cotton industries concentrated for war purposes. I have not time tonight to speak for those people amid whom I have always lived and for whom my wife worked for so long, doing work that women ought never to have been called upon to do. Tonight, I am concentrating on the pottery industry. Twice during my lifetime I have seen the industry contracted. During the last war the industry had a terrible time. Many firms were completely closed. Many people who had put all their savings into it lost them. Thousands of workers were called up to serve in the Royal Ordnance factories.
    Let me make it quite plain that I am not complaining about all this. I am speaking objectively and trying to sketch in the background to show that this industry deserves more encouragement than it is receiving at present. Immediately after the war, I remember my friend, the late Sir Stafford Cripps, and I going up to that area and pleading with the people concerned urgently to reorganise the industry and to make preparations for ensuring that there were maximum exports.
    Capital was again put into the industry. Modernisation took place, and thousands of people received special training, many of them through the encouragement given to them by the Ministry of Labour and others. Young girls, daughters of middle-class people, received training at the hands of the Ministry of Labour and became the most beautiful decorators in the world. As a result of all that our exports went up.
    Now we get the following facts, not as stated by me but from the manufacturers themselves. The industry's Export Promotion Committee reviewed the position of the domestic pottery industry in the middle of January this year. The figures proved to be the worst since December, 1956. The Federation of Pottery Manufacturers regarded the position as serious, and, as a consequence, requested that a deputation should be received by leading
    1186
    members of the Government so that the industry's representatives could produce evidence at first hand of the need for the complete removal of Purchase Tax on domestic pottery.
    The Federation has always protested at the imposition of Purchase Tax on domestic pottery and now see no justification whatever for the continuation of the tax on articles which are household necessities. Surely that is reasonable pleading. Surely the time has arrived when the consideration due to it should be given to the matter. It is further evidence of the complete unanimity that exists behind our plea for the abolition of the discriminating, discouraging tax on pottery manufactures.
    In my view, Purchase Tax was rightly imposed at the time, although I did not agree with it, but because we wanted to win the war we had to subordinate our individuality and our narrow sectional needs for the purpose of making the maximum contribution. But it is now fourteen years since that time. Purchase Tax is now a revenue-raising tax.
    Given the expenditure, I agree that the revenue should be raised. But is it right to raise the revenue in this form upon exports? The cumulative economic consequences of Purchase Tax on the pottery export trade cannot be measured. All engaged in the industry—whether manufacturers, trade unions, artists and others who contribute to what most members of the Government will admit is a great export trade—are in complete agreement with the case that we have presented.
    10.45 p.m.
    The difficulties connected with the imposition of the Purchase Tax on domestic pottery can best be shown by referring to a survey which was carried out in January of this year. I have a few extracts from that survey which was carried out by the manufacturers. It shows that in 88 firms with a labour force of 9,590 males and 18,395 females, 1,485 males and 2,873 females, representing 15 per cent., were engaged on short-time work. I understand that there has been a further deterioration since that survey was carried out.
    One can understand that this situation is deeply disturbing manufacturers, trade unions and employees in this area. The review further showed that 43 firms had

    1187
    less than four weeks orders on their books, 28 firms between five and nine weeks, and 12 firms with orders in excess of 10 weeks. As a result of this unfortunate position, the stocks have increased substantially. In fact, the stock position in January, 1959, was 40 per cent. higher than the stocks in 1958.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Economic Secretary have had great experience in industry—one in large-scale industry and the other in Cornwall. They know the difficulties involved in productive industry. They know the difficulties of making products of the kind of which I am speaking. They are aware of the need to watch overheads, and they know that in the industries with which they are concerned there is no discriminating Purchase Tax upon manufactured commodities. Therefore, it is surely logical that the same should apply to all industries, especially those which manufacture for export. Is it not time that two experienced Ministers, who are listening to our reasoned case, should assert themselves and deal with this discriminating tax?
    Industry is now capable of manufacturing on a mass-production basis. The higher the output, so the total overhead charges are reduced. Surely the time has come, therefore, when the mass of the people should be able to enjoy the benefits of mass-produced goods at minimum prices, so that the standard of living can be increased. Is it not reasonable that overhead charges should be reduced, so that we may increase our export trade?
    Today industry, and particularly the industry to which I have been referring, possesses unused manufacturing capacity. As both Ministers know from experience, that adds to costs and export difficulties. It saps the morale of management, staff and workers because they are not able to work to full capacity. There is, therefore, a serious effect on the morale of those engaged in the industry in addition to the national effect.
    Many hon. Members must have a guilty conscience on the subject with which I am about to deal, especially those who subordinated our export trade to the foreign policy of others. Some of us are in a strong position on this matter, and I will, therefore, not pursue it
    1188
    too far, but it is interesting to see what the industry itself has had to say. The industry has said that there have been no improvements in the export position for the industry as a whole. Unfortunately, the industry is still faced with serious quota restrictions in the majority of its export markets. The only substantial free markets are those in North America, where there is severe local competition as well as competition from Japan, whose sales to the United States alone account for 78 per cent. of the total consumption of domestic ware in America.
    I take second place to no one in my admiration of the American people, but it has to be remembered that the people of this country have now fought in two world wars, that they spent twelve months alone resisting the mightiest military machine ever built, and had to dispose of all our securities, pawning them in America. We now have the right to remind the Americans of the Herculean efforts made by our people and—
    The Deputy-Chairman (Sir Gordon Touche): I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but we are getting very far from Purchase Tax.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: I shall relate what I am saying to Purchase Tax in a moment. Perhaps I was developing that argument too much, but it is not my purpose to filibuster. Even when there was large-scale unemployment in this country we did not do that. But, so long as we can keep within order, we intend to state the case of the people we represent. I was making the point that the time has now arrived when the American people should remember, more than they have done lately, what they owe to the British.
    The Economic Survey shows that a number of industries have reduced prices substantially, while others have not made changes and others have increased prices. Among those which have reduced prices is the china and earthenware industry. Is not that further evidence to strengthen the argument which I am putting to the Committee?
    Do we still need maximum exports? Do we still need to be concerned about costs? If so, what do the Chancellor and the Economic Secretary propose to do

    1189
    about it? In 1958, there were over 1 million unemployed and our share of the world markets was 22 per cent. It is now 18 per cent. In my view that is due to the relatively high costs on productive industry, and among them I include Purchase Tax. We have heard a lot about the need to liberalise trade, yet we still have Purchase Tax which is a tax on exports. The export of pottery could be enormously increased by the removal of that tax.
    Nearly all the raw material used in the pottery industry comes from a few miles from where the Chancellor has spent many years of his life. There is an excellent relationship between the people of Cornwall and the people of North Staffordshire. Not only do we use our own raw material, but it is worked on by highly skilled labourers and decorated by girls who have been trained in secondary schools and received an excellent education. What other export is there which is as valuable as pottery and to which the Purchase Tax still applies? Can the Chancellor say why pottery was exempt from tax in March, 1955, but not in May, 1959? Are not pottery exports as essential now as in 1955?
    If we are to increase our exports, it must be done by giving more encouragement to the industry. It is a matter for Government policy and, in my view, there is an unanswerable case for the immediate abolition of this discriminating, revenue-raising tax.
    Mr. Hector Hughes: I wish to make only two points. One relates to the fishing industry and I hope that it will appeal particularly to the Chancellor, because he is a seafaring man. I ask him to reduce or to abolish the Purchase Tax on the gear which fishermen have to use, on the ropes and tackle and other articles, because their present cost makes fishing more expensive than it should be, not only to the ship-owners and fishermen, but ultimately to the consumers of fish. The Chancellor knows that the fishing industry is the third largest industry in the United Kingdom. Our fishermen and their boats are spread all round our coasts. They are put to quite unnecessary costs by this Purchase Tax. It would be a great advantage—not only to the people in the
    1190
    industry, but to all citizens—if the Chancellor would reduce or abolish this tax.
    11.0 p.m.
    That is my first point and my second one I shall put equally succinctly. It relates to gramophone records. The Chancellor and the Committee have heard a lot about the music of gramophone records; they have heard very little about the music of the sea. What I have just said may be my excuse for putting one aspect of the gramophone industry which has not been put today. That is the industrial side of the question. When I was approached about Purchase Tax on gramophone records, being a reasonable person, I hope, asked for some evidence from the authorities about it. I got a letter signed jointly by two men who are regarded as the greatest authorities in the industry.
    I have the letter here and I shall read some extracts from it. It is from the British Phonograph Committee and is signed by Mr. F. W. Lockwood, chairman of the Electric & Musical Industries Ltd., and Mr. E. R. Lewis, chairman of the Mecca Record Co., Ltd. It is quite a long letter and I shall not trouble the Committee with the whole of it. There are parts of it which touch the industrial side of the question and show how important the industry is, not only for the purpose of giving and maintaining employment, but also for the purpose of bringing to this country foreign currency which otherwise it would not have.
    One paragraph says:
    "The British gramophone record industry provides employment for many thousands of people."
    In that it resembles the other industry to which I have just referred, the fishing industry. It goes on:
    "It has a story of achievement which is unequalled by the record industry of no other country; indeed, it was the British gramophone record industry which sustained and kept the gramophone record in being in the 1930s when the American industry almost completely closed down. Since the war we have been able to make a substantial contribution to British dollar earning capacity. Of every three records (units) produced in the United Kingdom, one is exported overseas."
    I skip the middle part of the letter, because I do not want to make a long speech or to weary the Committee, but I must

    1191
    bring this to the notice of the Chancellor. The letter says:
    "The Government has no consistent policy in these matters. On the one hand it encourages the British Council to use records as a convenient means of demonstrating the British way of life abroad; on the other hand it subjects the gramophone record generally to a penalising tax. Gramophone records are, again like books, ambassadors for this country."
    It is obvious that I am not putting either of the two cases I am submitting on sentimental grounds. I am putting them on logical and industrial grounds. Both of these industries are big and very important to the people of the country—very important to all classes. The second one I have mentioned brings in foreign currency, which is valuable to the nation. On both grounds, I ask the hard-headed Chancellor, the hard-hearted Chancellor, not to be hard-hearted in this matter, but to realise that the argument I have ventured to put to him is sound and in the interests of the country. I hope that he will accept it.
    Mr. Amory: I think that it was my hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Mr. Gower) who said that if a stranger had listened to this debate he would have left with the impression that I had proposed a range of savage increases in Purchase Tax applying to every single rate instead of proposing reliefs which amount to £80 million in a full year, after—I must remind the Committee—proposing reliefs amounting to about £40 million in a full year last year.
    It was the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown) who said that I should be called in Lancashire a "skinny" Chancellor. I wonder how many millions I should have to propose in reliefs to lose any claim to that epithet. From the point of view of our national economy, its affairs may be safer in the hands of a Chancellor with a modicum of "skinniness" about him. I ought, perhaps, to be proud of that designation as well as of the hardheadedness or hard-heartedness which the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr. Hector Hughes) has just ascribed to me.
    I was criticised in the early part of the debate for making any reductions in the 60 per cent. rate. During the latter part of the debate, I have been criticised equally strongly for not making bigger
    1192
    reductions in the 60 per cent. rate feel that we have had an interesting and worthwhile debate, but I hope that, in view of the number of speeches which have been made, I shall be forgiven if I do not refer to them individually. I kept a list during the debate of the articles which I was advised to exempt from Purchase Tax entirely. It is not a complete list, but it included musical instruments, records, pottery, hollow-ware, textiles, jewellery, bicycles, sports requisites, furniture and fishing gear. Every one of these items, of course, was described as vitally important and quite exceptional.
    If I were prepared to accept the advice offered to me, I should reduce the tax to utter and complete chaos. As I think I indicated in a previous debate, there is a complete difference of view between right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite and myself about the pattern of the tax. They believe that articles which are necessities or even articles which enter widely into everyday use should be exempt, and luxuries, on the other hand, should be saddled with penal rates which, when they were in office, rose, I think, to 100 per cent. or more. My right hon. and hon. Friends and I think that the tax should be composed of certain moderate rates over a very wide range, but not—I say this again to the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Diamond)—a uniform rate. That is not our objective. We believe that such differentials as there are should be kept in perspective and not be unreasonable.
    Why is this our view? First, a tax which must yield £400 or £500 a year—I believe that that is what it must yield at present —must have a broad base. Secondly, if differences between one article and another are too great, the result will be that the tax will be riddled with fantastic anomalies. Thirdly, I believe that it is only within reasonable limits that we are justified in deciding where the line should be drawn between luxuries and non-luxuries, and the less we have to use our judgment the better. We must remember, as my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General said, that many of our high-quality products are of the very greatest importance to our export trade.
    What I have said does not mean that we do not believe in the progressive principle for taxation. We do believe in it, but, like everything else, that principle

    1193
    must be kept within proper limits, and a sensible balance maintained. The progressive principle does not mean that all those with above-average means should pay all, and others nothing. It means that the burden must be graded and spread, so that it falls fairly in the light of all relevant circumstances.
    My task this year was to decide what sum I could allocate to the relief of direct and what to indirect taxation, and then how much I could allocate to the relief of Purchase Tax. I decided that this year I could allocate about £60 million, or £80 million in a full year. Then I had to decide how that relief could most effectively be used. In that decision I was largely influenced by the need to get the tax into a sound shape—sound as a revenue-raising tax, fair in its effect on taxpayers, and sound in its effect on the economy.
    I will not claim that the Purchase Tax is other than an imperfect instrument. I think that it was last year that I said that I was reminded of the Irishman who was asked the way to Roscommon and who replied, "If it was to Roscommon I would be going it is not from here that I would be starting." I had to start from the position in which I found myself. Some years ago, this tax badly needed attention. It was bursting with indefensible and increasing anomalies, stemming from the war. My predecessors carried out considerable improvements, and last year I proposed, and Parliament approved, a considerable reconstruction of the tax, reducing the number of rates from seven to four, and giving relief, in a full year, of about £40 million.
    I said then that I believed it was getting into a form in which further improvements could be carried out without sharp changes, and this year that is precisely what I have tried to do—to continue this process of getting the tax into a more logical form. I say again, the aim is not a uniform rate, but a tax on moderate rates; a standard rate, and one rate higher and two rates lower.
    There was, of course, a great temptation this year to make a lot of changes in individual items from one category to another, or to grant complete exemptions. Had I succumbed to that temptation, however, it would have been in direct conflict with the aim of ultimately achieving a broadly-based tax on moderate
    1194
    rates. For instance, had I proposed the removal of the 5 per cent. rate, at a cost of £50 million that would have militated directly against that aim. I think that hon. Members opposite made a good case for taxing clothing at the lowest rate, but not a good case for exempting it from tax altogether.
    Hon. Members opposite implied that there was, perhaps, a case for reducing the 15 per cent, and 30 per cent. rates, but not the 60 per cent. rate. Again, we must keep this in perspective. There is justification for a considerably higher rate than normal for certain goods, but not for leaving those articles, as it were, right out on a limb at a rate as high as 60 per cent. for ever.
    The argument has been advanced that reliefs should be given for the products of industries that are having a difficult time. That argument merits careful consideration. One could argue for long as to whether or not there is economic justification for such discrimination, but the practical aspect of that problem is that if that principle were followed it would, again, bring this tax into a state of chaos. It is perfectly easy to take off or reduce the tax when an industry runs into difficulties; it is far more difficult to find an industry which would justify deliberately increasing the rate of tax—and changes in industries occur wry quickly.
    I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman) that the present rate of tax is murdering the bicycle trade. The trade is having a difficult time, but for reasons other than the incidence of this tax, which is lower today than it was three years ago, when the industry was highly flourishing.
    11.15 p.m.
    I enjoyed the speech of the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White), as I always do, because she always makes most practical contributions. Although, on musical instruments, I have not done so much with the tax as I did last year, I still have a soft spot in my heart for that claim, and I have, anyhow, made reductions for two years running. The hon. Lady asked whether we knew if the tax reductions were being passed on. We have no method of enforcement to ensure that they are passed on, and we have no way in which we can tell for certain how widely they are being passed on. But

    1195
    such tests as we have made indicate, as they did last year, that the reductions have been, or are in the process of being, passed on at present. Obviously, we cannot enforce it, because there are over 60,000 registered traders, with about 500,000 retailers concerned, but in a competitive economy such as ours I believe that we can safely rely on competition and the influence of customers in ensuring that these reductions are passed on.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Sir H. Kerr) and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Dr. Stross), who claims heavenly twinship with my hon. Friend, started our discussion on records. Again, I have made a reduction of a sixth in the tax this year, which is more than any other Chancellor has done to date. It is curious that last year, when I did not reduce the tax, there was hardly a note of criticism, but this year, when I have, I am told that I am added to the long list of Phillistine Chancellors. One responsibility that I would not take on is to try to discriminate betwen records which are cultural and records which are not. I would not start arguing with young people on that subject.
    The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) asked me whether I wished the pottery trade to continue with its excellent export effort. I do, and I hope that it will improve on it still further, for it has been a very good record. He then asked a question to which I do not believe he expected an answer, whether, if the industry said that it would go in for an export drive, I would give an assurance that Purchase Tax on pottery would be removed. Of course, I cannot give such an assurance. To do so would be to discriminate very unfairly between that industry, with its fine record of exports, and many other industries which are also subject to Purchase Tax, but which also have good records in this respect.
    The hon. Gentleman also asked me whether, when changes are made, they could be made at some time other than in the Budget. One difficulty there is that it is only at the time of the Budget, when a full review of the country's and the Treasury's resources has been carried out, that I know whether I have resources to allot to the relief of Purchase Tax.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the question of pottery, will he answer this question? He will be aware that pottery was not subject to tax at the time of the last General Election. It has only been brought into Purchase Tax by the actions of Chancellors since the last election. Since that was done, as we were then told, to deal with a very critical inflationary situation, which the Chancellor is always telling us has now been removed, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us why, if it was necessary to bring it into tax in October, 1955, he still regards it as necessary to keep it in tax when it was not in tax before?
    Mr. Amory: It is because I am trying to get this tax on to a sound, broad basis. [Horn. MEMBERS: "Ah."] That is the reason, and in accordance with the principle to which I was trying to work I was glad to make the reduction which applies this year to pottery.
    I should have been delighted if I had been able to reconcile it with my conscience to remove the tax entirely from many items. It would have been most popular to do so, apart from anything else. I realise that I could have allotted the reliefs which I have allotted in ways which would have been more popular. But it would not have been the right course, because it would have left my successors with a mutilated, ineffective and highly illogical tax. I am sure that the reliefs which I have proposed have been the right ones from the point of view of getting the tax into a sounder, more defensible shape and that, more important, they have been right also from the point of view of the long-term interest of taxpayers and the interest of the national economy. I hope that the Committee will now allow the Clause to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr. E C. Redhead: In attempting to discuss Purchase Tax at all, I am not sure whether I should appear in the role of a repentant sinner or that of the poacher turned game-keeper, for I have to confess that way back in 1940, when this tax was first introduced, I was a member of the initial staff of the Customs and Excise Department which had the responsibility for launching it upon the public. In the circumstances, my point of view may be regarded as a

    1197
    little biased or prejudiced from that experience.
    I do not think, however, that we should close this debate without taking note that the Chancellor has failed to appreciate the real lesson of the debate. In the first instance, the right hon. Gentleman would have to concede that the nature of the debate has abundantly justified the Opposition's protest at its restrictive character, which we have been compelled to accept. While we have had ample demonstration of the desire of hon. Members to bring forward propositions for the modification of this tax, we have been denied, by the restrictive character of the Resolution, the opportunity of taking that view to the test of the Division Lobby.
    The Chancellor has missed on this occasion a golden opportunity, whatever the difficulties may have been in earlier years, of taking an entirely fresh view of this Purchase Tax and of looking at it objectively. Instead of the process which has been true of it ever since its introduction of proceeding piece-meal and from hand to mouth, the Chancellor had the opportunity to look at it afresh in the more fortunate circumstances of this year and really try to make up his mind what should be the basis of the tax, if it is to persist, and what purpose it is intended to serve.
    I would remind the Chancellor and the Committee that the tax was first introduced as a wartime measure, with the implication that at the end of the war it would cease. It is still with us, although it has undergone various changes in rates, numbers of rates, groupings and classifications. I am sadly reminded that the very first Excise taxation was introduced by the Long Parliament as long ago as 1643 to obtain money to support the Parliamentary forces in the Civil War. It was a war tax specifically introduced to end with the end of the Civil War, but in one form or another Excise taxation has continued until the present day. New taxes, I fear, once introduced, even though intended to be temporary, have a tendency to stick, and Purchase Tax still sticks to us.
    It was brought in originally—and this has been said several times in the debate, hut I think it ought to be underlined in view of the manner in which the Chancellor is now approaching the tax—in a
    1198
    manner which suggested that its primary purpose was to discourage unnecessary spending during the war, revenue being very much a secondary consideration. Indeed, Sir Kingsley Wood, the then Chancellor, who introduced the proposition, said
    "There will be a high rate of tax on the purchase of goods which… in the hard circumstances of war we can either do without or of which we can at least postpone the replacement."
    He went on to list the articles he had in mind, saying
    "luxuries like furs, articles made with real silk, lace, china and porcelain articles—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd July 1940; Vol. 363, c. 652.]
    were the categories he had in mind.
    For the purpose of discouraging unnecessary expenditure or diverting or limiting expenditure in respect of certain articles or certain trades for sound economic reasons, there is a quite legitimate case for a modest tax properly constructed in that way. That has been followed in part in the years which have succeeded, but unhappily the tax scope has been very widely extended to include many articles which were not even in the original wartime Schedule. The legitimate use of the tax has been obscured by the emphasis which is now laid upon it not as an economic weapon but almost exclusively for raising revenue. Indeed, every argument which we have had in the attempt to rebut the claims which have been pressed upon the Chancellor has been based upon insistence that it would cost too much and the Chancellor cannot afford to lose the revenue involved.
    This tax has been so lucrative a source of revenue that no Chancellor since its inauguration has been able to view with equanimity the prospect of foregoing such a weighty contribution to the Exchequer. It is worth bearing in mind that in the first full year after the war—I discount the war period—the total yield of this tax was £181 million. Today it is £490 million. It is worth noting also, particularly as there have been those who have been so anxious to lay claim to virtue in this Government in reducing this tax, that even after the remissions which are now proposed in the Clause under consideration the Chancellor will still he collecting from this source 00 million more than was the case in the

    1199
    last year for which the Labour Government were responsible.
    Last year, I admit, the Chancellor introduced a recast of the structure. He reduced six rates to four with a measure of regrouping of the tax. It was a welcome move, but he has not substantially taken that process any further this year. We had hoped he would have done so and that he would have gone further in the process of rationalisation and taken off the tax entirely, as we have argued today, from the lowest tax range where so many of the clear necessities of life are to be found.
    As it is, he has proposed reductions in the higher groups but left the lowest group untouched, and he has heightened the suspicion that what he really intends is the substitution for Purchase Tax of a sales tax. He has repudiated that suggestion, but one cannot help feeling that the more he responds to this tendency the more susceptible he will become to the pressures which will be exerted upon him to make that substitution, which will be viewed with the gravest disquiet on this side of the Committee.
    11.30 p.m.
    Whatever imperfections Purchase Tax may have—and there are many—it has one merit over a sales tax as operated in most countries where it exists, inasmuch as it is a once-for-all tax levied on transfer from wholesale to retail, and not, as is a sales tax, on each occasion goods change hands. Nevertheless, even in the modified structure of the tax it is in many respects still fundamentally had. It is not without significance—and I do not think that I am revealing any secrets at this distance in time—to say that when the tax was first inaugurated the Commissioners of Customs and Excise were not exactly enthusiastic at the prospect of taking responsibility for its administration which had been thrust upon them. They must have communicated their unhappiness to the Treasury for the Government of the day took the most unprecedented step of temporarily drafting into the Department an additional Commissioner specifically charged with directing the imposition of the tax.
    The tax structure is still riddled with anomalies and apparent absurdities. Illogicalities abound even despite what
    1200
    ever the Chancellor succeeded in doing last year. The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro), whose absence has been most noteworthy today, has had a great deal of fun in publicising many of the anomalies that have occurred.
    There must be many anomalies in a tax of this character with the multiplicity of groups and grades and classes that are still included in it to such an extent that it requires a booklet of over 100 pages to explain it to the traders with all its paraphernalia of artificial assessment of wholesale value, with a valuation department and a process of uplift and heaven knows what other impedimenta to make it operative. It is quite clear that such a tax is bound to be riddled with absurdities and illogicalities.
    Let me say in passing that civil servants, like others, will sometimes make mistakes, but they are more often than not blamed for the mistakes of others than for their own errors. In this case any absurdity in the decisions given by the Customs and Excise Department stem not from the stupidity of that Department but from the incongruous character of the schedules which constitute a headache for those in the Department. One recalls the sort of headaches which the Department had in trying to determine when paper was stationery and when a raw material, and disputes as to whether or not paper baking cases were household paper goods or requisites for confectioners. One had the pretty picture of assistant secretaries going out buying chocolate eclairs from a bakery in order to determine the size which the customer used in the trade and taking it back solemnly to make measurements and to determine liability.
    One also recalls trying to unravel the problem of whether rubber hot water bottles were chargeable under the tax although not mentioned in the schedule and finally deciding that they ought to be charged because hot water bottles made of metal or stone were chargeable, and the Department getting away with it on the ground, of all things, that they must be chargeable because they constituted soft hardware!
    It is a bad tax and nothing which has been done has altered that fact. It is bad because the public seldom knows what part of the full retail price of an article is attributable to tax, and many

    1201
    a retailer has got away with it, when the customer has grimaced about the price, with the vague reply, "Well, it's the Purchase Tax, you know." With its present wide range, it sets up innumerable pressures on the Chancellor every year. It is irksome and irritating in its application, and it is burdensome in many respects.
    What the Chancellor has done is to return an answer tonight which demonstrates once again the fundamental difference between the Opposition and the Government in their approach to the purpose of this Tax. If he is not responsive to the plea which, I think, is inherent in the whole of this debate, to take a fresh look at this tax and to relate it to the realities of today, we must wait—and I hope not wait too long—for another Chancellor who will take a more realistic view of the necessities of the situation.
    Hon. Members: Divide.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clauses 13 to 15 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Mr. H. Wilson: I beg to move, That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
    I think we have made quite useful progress, even if the numbers now in the Chamber greatly exceed the numbers that have been on the other side of the Committee during the greater part of the debate. The number of Members present at the moment is only exceeded by the ignorance of the subject by some hon. Members opposite. Their suggestion to us that we should divide against the Question that Clause 12 stand part of the Bill only shows how little they know of the whole procedural situation in which the Committee has been placed by the Chancellor's action.
    We have spent half an hour this afternoon and an hour last night pointing out that because of the Chancellor's Financial Resolution it was impossible either for the Opposition or for any one else to move Amendments to reduce the level of Purchase Tax. Most of the speeches made on this side of the Committee in the course of the last few hours have been in favour of individual remissions of Purchase Tax on particular items, but unfortunately, because of the Chancellor's action, we were not able to move Amendments
    1202
    to carry that out. Why, therefore, anyone on the benches opposite should think it would have been appropriate that we should have divided against the Clause standing part, I entirely fail to understand.
    I think that in other circumstances we might have subjected Clauses 13, 14 and 15 to, at any rate, a short process of elucidation, but I think that the convenience of the Committee has been served by allowing hon. Members in all parts of the Committee to debate to the full, so far as the procedural position has allowed, this question of Purchase Tax. It may surprise some hon. Members to know that quite a number of Conservatives have made extremely important contributions to this debate.
    We have now ended the indirect Purchase Tax parts of the Bill. It is a long time since we reached the Question that Clause 15 stand part of the Bill after only two days of a Committee stage. But I cannot let the occasion pass without commenting on the debut at the Box of my hon. Friend the Member for Waltham-stow, West (Mr. Redhead) who has brought to our Purchase Tax debates a very real and almost professional, or at any rate ex-professional, knowledge of this subject, and those hon. Members who have heard his earlier speeches will realise what a valuable contribution he has made.
    Tomorrow, I presume, we shall go straight on with Clause 16, and, of course, from that point onwards I cannot promise the Chancellor, unless he shows himself a good deal more accommodating than is usual and than he has been today—
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: What about Clauses 14 and 15?
    Mr. Wilson: Clauses 14 and 15 have been passed by this Committee. I am sorry if we have missed the opportunity of an important speech by the noble Lord. That was the decision of the Committee, Sir Charles, and you are as powerless as we are to put back the clock to enable the noble Lord to make a speech. As I was saying, we said that we would cooperate in getting the Bill to this stage by what we hoped would be a reasonable hour this evening, and we have done so.
    I ought to warn the Chancellor that we hope to make fairly rapid progress tomorrow. How rapid will depend on how

    1203
    accommodating he is to the excellent and constructive Amendments which we have put on the Notice Paper. Should he prove less accommodating than we hope, it will be necessary to have quite a number of Divisions, but I cannot give any assurance about how far we shall get tomorrow night. I am sure that it is the wish of hon. Members on both sides of the Committee that we should make as much progress as possible with the actual Clauses of the Bill so that after the Recess we can have the maximum time available for the new Clauses.
    Mr. Amory: I think that it would be entirely appropriate to report Progress. We have made excellent progress this evening, and I thank hon. Members in all parts of the Committee for their cooperation. We on this side of the Committee have been equally glad to listen to the hon. Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Redhead) speaking from the Box for the first time. If the Committee can make equally good progress tomorrow, we shall all go away for our Whitsun holiday feeling that that holiday has been well earned.
    Question put and agreed to.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  COMPTROLLER AND AUDITOR GENERAL (SALARY)
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That the rate of the salary which may be granted to the Comptroller and Auditor General under section one of the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act, 1957, be increased from six thousand pounds to seven thousand pounds per annum, and the date from which, under subsection (3) of that section, the person now holding that Office is entitled to a salary at the said increased rate be the first day of February, nineteen hundred and fifty-nine.—[Mr. Simon.].
  11.43 p.m.
  Sir George Benson: I cannot allow this occasion to pass, even at this late hour, without saying a few words. It is now thirty years since I first became a Member of the Public Accounts Committee, and the Comptroller and Auditor General is the guide, philosopher and friend of that Committee. He sits
  1204
  with the Committee and, as the oldest Member of that Committee, it is fitting that I should say a few words.
  This Motion is perhaps the last phase of a battle, which started some six centuries ago, for the control of finance by Parliament. The Comptroller and Auditor General is not a civil servant. He is a servant of Parliament, and particularly of the House of Commons. It is true that he is appointed by the Crown, but once appointed he can be dismissed only by a joint Resolution of both Houses of Parliament. He is the watchdog of Parliament as against the Government. His power is immense. He controls the purse strings on our behalf and the Government cannot draw a single penny from the Consolidated Fund without the consent of his signature. He is not merely a Comptroller. He is a Comptroller in his function of releasing money to the Government, but in his other function he audits the whole of the Government's accounts and he sits with the Public Accounts Committee and advises and helps us in our report to Parliament on the post mortem of the previous year. I welcome the fact that we had got rid of the cumbrous proceeding of a Parliamentary Bill which has hitherto been necessary to increase his salary and that it can now be done by the formal Resolution of the House.
  11.45 p.m.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. J. E. S. Simon): It is entirely appropriate that the main speech in support of this Resolution should be made by the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Sir G. Benson) who is the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. The hon. Gentleman has put the constitutional position with great felicity and also the change made in the arrangements for fixing the salary of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Ever since the Exchequer and Audit Department was organised on its present basis in 1868 the salary of the Comptroller and Auditor General has been equal to that of the head of a major Government Department, and this Resolution follows the recent increases recommended by the Coleraine Committee and implemented by the Government.
  Question put and agreed to
  Resolution to be reported.
  Report to be received Tomorrow.

  Judicial Offices (Salaries) Order, 1959, [draft laid before the House, 29th April], approved.—[The Solicitor-General.]

  NATIONAL GALLERIES OF SCOTLAND BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Bill referred to the Scottish Grand Committee. —[Mr. Maclay.].

  MANCHESTER REGIONAL HOSPITAL BOARD (Mr. A. H. BARBER)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Hughes-Young.]
  11.48 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie Hale: I remember a learned counsel in the High Court applying for the adjournment of a case on the ground that he was very fatigued, having spoken for four hours. His application was supported by his learned friend on the ground that he had had to listen to the four-hour speech. I am tired, but I rise to raise the question of Mr. Alexander Howard Barber, a distinguished gynaecologist, who came to Oldham in 1937.
  Mr. Barber is a member of the Royal College of Physicians and the Royal College of Surgeons. He has the distinction of being a man of most excellent character who has won the support of Oldham, and I have my pockets full of letters and telegrams from religious bodies and other organisations in Oldham all pressing that justice should at last be done to this man who has been so long traduced and maligned and defamed without any evidence being submitted to him and without ever having been informed of the charges against him.
  In 1937, Mr. Barber took charge of a hospital at Oldham and organised it, reorganised it and instituted a midwifery and domiciliary service and won the highest enconiums for his work. In 1948, when the Health Service was nationalised, the Manchester Regional Board was set up to administer the new organisation in Oldham. Until that
  1206
  moment no complaint had ever been made against Mr. Barber. There was, of course, a period during which salaries had not been settled and in which contracts had not been signed and could not be signed, a period of delay for which Mr. Barber had no responsibility at all, but months went by before particulars were settled. What, in fact, happened was that he was asked to submit particulars.
  My great difficulty throughout this matter is the theory, at least attributed to magistrates in a local court, "You must have done summat or you would not be here ", and even in the Corridors of this House I hear, "There must have been something Mr. Barber must have done ". Mr. Justice Barry determined his claim and ascertained what had started the trouble. In a ninety-five page judgment, he said that a junior clerk in Manchester had by chance put Mr. Barber's file in the wrong pigeon hole and he had been classified by that mistake in the wrong book. No complaint was made against Mr. Barber, but the Manchester Board had made up its mind that something had gone wrong and resented it and, in fact, continued to regard and treat him as someone who had misrepresented his position.
  Mr. Justice Barry said:
  "What seems to me very much less excusable is that for some quite, to me, incomprehensible reason the Board ct some of its officials seem to have insisted throughout the whole of the Plaintiff's career with the Board that the Plaintiff himself or his late employers, the Health Committee of the Oldham Corporation, were in some way to blame for the error which had been made. Indeed, I am bound to say that I think there can be no doubt that this mistake, a mistake for which in no possible sense can Mr. Barber he held responsible, seems to have provided a kind of permanent black mark upon the Plaintiff's record with the Regional Board and that black mark remained and was not allowed to be forgotten or overlooked right down to the date of the Plaintiff's dismissal and indeed thereafter."
  That is the High Court Judge stating his view of the case, and no one has attempted to contradict it. The terms for consultants were not settled for many months, but the then Minister of Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan), published details which provided that consultants would have the full right of appeal to a medical expert committee if any allegation were made against them or if any question arose about

  1207
  conditions of service and Mr. Barber continued to perform his functions many months after.
  On 2nd January, 1950, a foetus was found exposed in a rubbish heap near the hospital. Mr. Barber was not in charge of the hospital at the time and was not living in. The incinerator had broken down, it was Christmas week, and an assistant porter had dealt with this matter in this singularly unhappy and unfortunate manner. An inquest was held and Mr. Barber was completely exonerated, but the coroner thought that the foetus was developed and questioned whether a birth certificate should or should not have been registered to comply with the regulations.
  As I say, Mr. Barber was completely exonerated and it clearly had no direct connection with him or his organisation, but following that some months later the Manchester Board offered him terms for a half-time appointment. Dr. Marshall, who is the official medical secretary to the Board, indicated those terms to him. Dr. Marshall has since admitted on oath offering him less than he was entitled to and knew he was doing more work than he had represented and the statements he made to the Ministry of Health were false. He had information which showed he knew they were false and which showed that this distinguished man was offered a contract at much less than he was entitled to receive, a punitive contract. Mr. Barber protested perfectly reasonably.
  During this period there was £750 over-paid in salary and he sent it back by return of post. A short time after that he was asked to refund £185 for board and lodging and, without protest, he paid that back. When he protested at being appointed at a lower rate, Dr. Marshall said the Board was thinking of appointing an additional gynaecologist and that the two must share the duties. That matter was not considered until 28th April, according to the minutes of the Board, and was not communicated to Mr. Barber until 1st May.
  I have to give a very long story in a very short time, and I am trying to put it, as far as I can, reasonably and consecutively. I have, obviously, to shorten some matters. After his protests about these conditions of employment, a preliminary
  1208
  secret decision was taken to commence an investigation into Mr. Barber's conduct. The Oldham police were employed to inquire into allegations about death certificates and birth certificates without interviewing Mr. Barber, writing to the Director of Public Prosecutions without communicating with him, and writing to the British Medical Association. Finally, there was set up by the Manchester Board a panel of inquiry of four distinguished consultants directed to hold a formal private secret hearing on the activities of Mr. Barber.
  Mr. Barber was given no details. He was sent a little form thirteen days before the hearing. He was told that he could not be present on the first day, but he must attend on the second day. The panel was to investigate allegations about birth and death certificates, and one case of suggested clinical negligence which the panel decided was frivolous and did not inquire into at all.
  Mr. Barber arrived on the second day. He was then told that it was alleged against him that he did not declare in a death certificate that the death was due to operation. He agreed that one should do that. He said he had always done so, and asked to see the death certificate. He pointed to the words, "Following Caesarian section" in his own handwriting on the certificate. The panel of inquiry said that the Oldham police could not have understood those words or they would not have sent those communications to the Director of Public Prosecutions alleging against Mr. Barber an offence of which he was clearly innocent.
  That was a two-day inquiry at which no evidence was taken, at which Mr. Barber was never told any details of the charges against him except one in regard to which the panel itself said that it had already taken Counsel's opinion on the question of the birth certificates and had confirmation that he was right. The panel issued a report to the Board acquitting Mr. Barber of any fault alleged against him.
  This report was never communicated to Mr. Barber and never, I believe, was it in full or in detail communicated to the Board. Instead, Mr. Barber was told—which was true—that the panel had alleged against him some lack of tact and errors of judgment. He does not know exactly what they are, but he knows that

  1209
  the prosecutor, Dr. Marshall, was with the panel throughout the hearing, that the panel itself in its award says that it
  "relied much on the factual advice of Dr. Marshall"
  who was the prosecutor, and that the prosecutor was allowed to advise the panel.
  Then the Manchester Board, without telling him that he had been acquitted, wrote to Mr. Barber and said that it had decided to dismiss him following the report of the panel. In other words, it tried to convey the impression that the panel had found him guilty. I do not think that a more monstrous plot against the professional life of a man has been revealed to the House for years. It is supported throughout by mis-statements, by inaccuracies and by misrepresentations. When Mr. Barber's case came to the High Court in 1957, after all those years, the Ministry of Health, relying on privilege, declined to disclose the documents, and they have not been disclosed to this day. That was an infamous decision.
  In 1950, I came into the matter. I discussed with Mr. Barber the very great difficulties attendant upon his situation. I wrote to the then Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale. My right hon. Friend wrote to Dr. Marshall, and elicited information from Dr. Marshall, who has already admitted half a dozen misrepresentations of fact and a great many concealments of the truth. A month or two later I had a long interview with Mr. Barber. I pointed out the difficulties of the situation. By then, the Board had refused him his contract. He had been told that he must sign it or go. By then, his employment had been terminated, and the Manchester Board, on the termination, had rung up the Oldham police and arranged for two policemen to be present to throw him out of the hospital if he desired to attend there even as a gynaecologist in private practice.
  This is the malice of the case. I saw Mr. Barber. I pointed out the difficulties he was in. I saw him for some hours. I came back and wrote a carefully worded letter to the Manchester Board saying: "Let us bury the hatchet. Let us sign the contract and put an end to this situation. Mr. Barber will accept this humiliation. He will sign the new contract. He knows he has no alternative in fighting
  1210
  against a monopolistic Health Service except to be broken professionally or face long litigation."
  The Board replied that nothing could be done. It was not until five years afterwards that we knew from the hearing that Mr. Marshall had written to the chairman of the Board saying, in effect: "I had a letter form Mr. Hale, M.P. I had to be very careful what I said to him, but I do not think I have given anything away." Is that the attitude of a public servant dealing with a fair communication from an hon. Member, or an attitude that should be adopted?
  In 1953, Mr. Barber wrote to the Ministry of Labour, and that Department replied that it was anxious to help him, and that he was entitled to a hearing before the Industrial Court Tribunal. Mr. Barber made application to the Minister, who passed it on to the Manchester Board, and the Board refused. We have searched the minutes of the Board to find out if it was ever told about it, hut there is no record that it was ever told. That refusal was given over the telephone either by Dr. Marshall or by Mr. Gibbon, and a man was deprived of all his rights in that respect and was forced to go to trial.
  These are the main facts that I have to state in this case. Mr. Barber's case was heard before Mr. Justice Barry. The trial lasted a long time, and we were put to about £5,000 in costs—to be paid for by the taxpayer; by you and me, Mr. Speaker, and, if I may say so, more by you than by me because I am now existing almost entirely on the salary earned by my wife as my secretary. Damages of something like £7,000 were awarded.
  I raised this case in the House, and I presented a petition signed by more than 11,000 Oldham people. Up to now have tried not to say a word that would exacerbate matters, but I have now given up that attitude because I think that the public should know the facts of this wicked secret trial and the wicked plot to slander a man that has been going on over all these years. Still Mr. Barber does not know what is alleged against him. Still he does not know in what way he had been tactless. Still he does not know what errors of judgment he is said to have committed.

  1211
  To make matters worse, when he claimed to exercise his right of appeal he was told that he had none; that a contract not having been signed he had lost that right. He was deprived of that. When he went to the Board, the Ministry put forward the even more infamous defence that because he had not put in a full statement in support of his appeal he had technically not complied with the conditions, yet my letter was said to be a technical compliance with the conditions.
  Up to now, this has been a painting rather in the style of Goya, but we now have a rather remarkable intrusion by no less a person than the Captain of the Queen's Bodyguard of the Yeomen of the Guard. In March last, the noble Lord, the Earl of Onslow, acting as a Minister, and making a Ministerial statement in reply to a Question in another place, speaking on behalf of the Minister of Health, said that this was a voluntary hospital; that Mr. Barber had a large private practice; that he had received a large sum of tax-free damages, and gave the most fantastic explanation of how the judge had arrived at his decision on the basis of a missing letter that had never been missing but which was referred to in the correspondence—and was hardly referred to at all in the judge's 95-page document. In a few sentences, the noble Lord managed to make a statemen that contained hardly any true fact at all. Mr. Barber is not in private practice—he cannot get any private bed accommodation. His damages were not tax-free—he had to pay 10s. in the £ on them, which was deducted in the assessment of the damages. The hospital is not a voluntary one. How such a statement could have been made in another place, I do not know.
  I asked the Minister of Health, who, I must say, has acted very fairly in this, to try to get the Board to see reason. What has now happened? Mr. Barber has been told that the Minister has ruled that there is a moral responsibility on the Board to re-employ Mr. Barber, and on that undertaking I kept quiet. Two vacancies have arisen, and Mr. Barber has applied for them. I have all the correspondence, and it suggests that the Board was already saying: "Ah, this only applies if he comes to us. If we can keep him off the small list recommended
  1212
  by the advisory committee we can still do him down." I will produce sworn evidence that declared that Mr. Barber will never be employed by that Board so long as he is chairman of the Consultants' Committee. So he applies for the post; he is told that he is not short-listed for one, although he got the impression that he is being considered for the other. On the second application he is put on the short list by four votes to three, and when he is on the short list a representative of the Manchester Board gets up and says that if Mr. Barber is put on the short list he has to get the job, because the Minister is under a moral obligation in his favour. So they take a second vote, and he is removed from the short list by four votes to three, and that is Mr. Barber's position today.
  I have, without undue emphasis, described in the brief time permitted to me a dark and malicious conspiracy, supported by constant misstatements of facts, by slander, malice, envy and all uncharitableness—a conspiracy which, if I wanted to take a severe view, would be indictable at common law, and which might send these men to Wormwood Scrubs, where they would receive the psychiatric treatment they need. But it is certainly a malicious plot, built up over eleven years, to ruin this man. He has been removed; it has kept him wholly out of employment since 1950 or 1951, and it deprives him of any chance of future employment, unless the Minister takes action. This man now comes humbly to this supreme court for the administration of justice to the individual, and asks for the justice that he has so long been denied. He asks the Minister to say that at long last he is going to take determined action to see that he gets it.
  12.7 p.m.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Richard Thompson): Just as the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) finds it difficult to compress the many things he had to say on this sad case into the twenty minutes he took, so I am in the same difficulty of having to compress into the even shorter time that I have a reply which will be of some relevance to everything that he has said. I do not think it would be the slightest use attempting to take up the many different points that the

  1213
  hon. Gentleman raised when he rapidly sketched through the history of this affair. I think that what he wants to know tonight is where we are to go from here.
  The essence of the case is this. The High Court found in December, 1957, that Mr. Barber's appointment had been wrongfully terminated; there is no doubt on that score. As a result of that he was awarded substantial damages, and Mr. Justice Barry, in his judgment, reached the conclusion that Mr. Barber's contract with the Manchester Regional Hospital Board—and I quote—" was an ordinary contract between master and servant, and nothing more "; in our plainer language, Mr. Speaker, perhaps we should say between employer and employee", and that in the circumstances Mr. Barber's only remedy was the recovery of damages. The judge negatived Mr. Barber's claim that he was entitled as of right to re-employment by the Board. There is no question here of a failure to reinstate in his old position. The court had not the power, and neither had the Minister, to require or insist on this.
  But my right hon. and learned Friend was not prepared to leave the matter in that condition. He requested the Manchester Regional Hospital Board to accept a moral obligation in respect of Mr. Barber, that is to say, that if an advisory appointments committee should recommend Mr. Barber as equally suitable for appointment with one or more other candidates for a consultant post, to recognise the existence of this moral obligation and to weigh it in his favour. The Manchester Regional Hospital Board accepted this obligation, and the real point at issue between us tonight, as I think the hon. Member would agree, is whether the moral obligation is being fairly interpreted in Mr. Barber's case and, if it is not, which is clearly the hon. Member's view, what can be done to ensure that it should be.
  Perhaps I should say a few words about how the moral obligation commitment works. Appointments come within the framework of the existing statutory Regulations under Section 14 of the National Health Service Act. It follows from that that the procedure is clearly defined and must be adhered to. There must be, in the first place, open advertisement of the vacancy and an open right of application, and, in the second place, consideration of applications by an
  1214
  advisory appointments committee whose membership is prescribed by the statutory regulations. In the third place, there must only be appointment by the Board of an applicant who is on the committee's recommended list. These statutory procedures, which are mandatory on everybody concerned, including both the Minister and the board, have been followed or are being followed in both these cases.
  Mr. Hale: But the hon. Gentleman knows that the British Medical Association says that it is nonsense. It says that Mr. Barber already has consultant status and does not have to graduate again. Those terms apply to senior hospital medical officers and other officers.
  Mr. Thompson: Nevertheless, under the regulations, it is necessary for Mr. Barber, like any other consultant, if he applies for a post, to go through the procedure.
  The hon. Member has specially called into question the proceedings of the advisory appointments committee on 5th May. This is in regard to the second of the two appointments for which Mr. Barber applied. Following allegations which appeared in the Press, and a resolution from the Oldham and District Hospital Management Committee, I at once requested the Regional Board to report on the proceedings and, in particular, to clarify the position in regard to these very allegations. It is true that an officer of the Board referred to the existence of the moral obligation and told the committee that in his view it was highly probable, because of the obligation, that the Board would decide to offer the post to Mr. Barber if his name was included in the submission. This explanation was made in the context of a clear preference by the committee for the appointment of another candidate and with regard to the effect which it might have on its intention.
  It is not, however, the fact, as has been alleged, that there was a change in the number of persons prepared to vote in favour of the submission of Mr. Barber's name to the board as a result of this statement having been made. At no time was there a majority in favour of so doing. In view of these allegations, we have thought it right to seek this information from the Board, which in turn has been in touch with the committee's chairman.
  Mr. Hale: Why ask the Board? It lied all the time.
  Mr. Thompson: If the hon. Member requires a reply to the serious allegations which he has made tonight, perhaps he will give me time to finish, as I gave him time to get on with his original statement.
  The chairman of this committee is Alderman Moss, J.P., a former Lord Mayor of Manchester and a highly reputable individual. We have got the information which we sought, and I see no need for a formal inquiry to obtain it. It is unnecessary, and it would be a reflection on Alderman Moss and the committee, to set up an inquiry unless there were a prima facie case that there were relevant facts which could be established only in that way. This is not the position. The facts have been freely vouchsafed in response to our inquiries, and if any point is served by seeking further relevant information this can be done.
  I should add that we have thought it right to make these inquiries in the particular circumstances of this case. Of course, these are confidential proceedings, and for obvious reasons it is right that they, like, I suppose, all considerations of applications for employment, should remain so. Unless they do, the proceedings may fail of their purpose, and damage may be done to the candidates concerned, to members of the committee, and the whole machinery of selection. Neither members nor candidates would be able to speak with the complete frankness which confidentiality surely requires.
  My right hon. and learned Friend, nevertheless, is anxious to devise a new procedure whereby the moral obligation cases need not necessarily be subject to the full statutory procedure, including the advisory appointments committees. Under present arrangements, the moral obligation can only take effect if the committee recommends. So, as my right hon. and learned Friend announced in reply to a Parliamentary Question recently, he intends to make new regulations which will strengthen the operation of the moral obligation commitment. What he has in mind—and I can say that it has been
  1216
  agreed both with the hospital boards and the medical profession—is to make it possible for boards to offer a post to a consultant to whom a moral obligation applies without advertising and without that consultant first having to compete with other applicants, which is the present statutory position.
  The arrangements will not actually compel a board to do this. They are permissive. Nor can the Minister insist that they shall. To introduce compulsion from the centre, whatever the hon. Member may say, would make a very wide divergence from the pattern of the National Health Service Act for which his right hon. and hon. Friends when they were in office were responsible. Nevertheless, what is proposed to be done will ensure that the moral obligation operates at the very outset and improves the situation of any consultants concerned by removing the possibility of their being eliminated, so to speak, in the qualifying rounds before the moral obligation has had a chance to weigh in their favour. This, I should have thought, would go some considerable way to meet the implied, if not expressed, criticism which the hon. Member made to the effect that the whole intention of the moral obligation might be frustrated if the advisory committee never made a recommendation at its stage of the proceedings.
  These new regulations involve amending the Regulations now in force. I believe that the hon. Member will find that what is proposed goes a long way to meet his case, I hope he will feel that, m the limited time which has been available tonight, I have indicated that the Minister does take a serious and continuing interest in this matter and is anxious that the moral obligation commitment should be and should be seen to be a reality.
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock on Tuesday evening, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at eighteen minutes past Twelve o'clock.

MINISTRY OF WORKS
  Avebury
  Avebury
SCOTLAND
  Houses, Douglas
  Houses, Douglas
  Old People's Welfare Committee
  Old People's Welfare Committee
  Fishing Industry, Mallaig
  Fishing Industry, Mallaig
  Fishery Protection
  Fishery Protection
  Deaf Children (Education)
  Deaf Children (Education)
  National Galleries of Scotland (Acquisitions)
  National Galleries of Scotland (Acquisitions)
  NEW CUNARD LINERS
  NEW CUNARD LINERS
  RADIOACTIVITY
  RADIOACTIVITY
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Public Service Pensions
  Public Service Pensions
  Foreign Travel Allowance
  Foreign Travel Allowance
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  George Street, Newcastle-under-Lyme
  George Street, Newcastle-under-Lyme
  Site, Binley (Use)
  Site, Binley (Use)
  Swimming Pool, Reading
  Swimming Pool, Reading
  Caravans
  Caravans
  Scrap-Metal Yard, Newmarket
  Scrap-Metal Yard, Newmarket
  Colliery Spoil Heaps
  Colliery Spoil Heaps
HOUSING
  Standards
  Standards
WALES
  Digest of Welsh Statistics
  Digest of Welsh Statistics
KENYA
  Samuel Githu (Proceedings)
  Samuel Githu (Proceedings)
NORTHERN RHODESIA
  Magistrates
  Magistrates
TANGANYIKA
  Natural Resources Training School, Tengeru
  Natural Resources Training School, Tengeru
CYPRUS
  Commercial Broadcasting
  Commercial Broadcasting
EMPLOYMENT
  Radioactivity
  Radioactivity
POST OFFICE
  Station Road Office, Stoke-on-Trent
  Station Road Office, Stoke-on-Trent
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Space Research
  Space Research
SHIPBUILDING
  Nuclear Propulsion
  Nuclear Propulsion
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Maintenance Unit, Aldergrove
  Maintenance Unit, Aldergrove
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Office Facilities, East Kilbride
  Office Facilities, East Kilbride
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  Goatskins
  Goatskins
  Weights and Measures
  Weights and Measures
BRITISH ARMY
  Officers (Pay)
  Officers (Pay)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of St. Albans

FALMOUTH DOCKS BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

INDEPENDENT AIR LINES AND COLONIAL SERVICES
2.35 p.m.
LORD GRENFELL: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government if they are aware that parents living in Commonwealth countries with children at school in England are forced, by infrequent leave and high air fares, to endure long periods of absence from their children, and that this hardship would be considerably alleviated by the introduction of very low air fares as now proposed by certain independent air lines.]
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, my right honourable friend, the Minister for Transport and Civil Aviation, is advised by the Air Transport Advisory Council on applications by independent air lines to operate scheduled services. He is now shortly expecting the Council's recommendations on certain low fare proposals for services between the United Kingdom and British Colonial territories. I have no doubt that such points as those made by the noble Lord were laid before the Council when these applications were heard. I can assure your Lordships that in considering the Council's recommendations my right honourable friend will give
274
due weight to all the arguments put forward in favour of these proposals, including those advanced by the noble Lord.
LORD GRENFELL: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl very much for what I hope will prove to be a satisfactory answer.
LORD OGMORE: My Lords, would the Government also bear in mind that it is no good taking off the cream from this type of business and leaving the air Corporations with the skimmed milk?
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, in considering these matters, would Her Majesty's Government bear in mind that air travellers fall into two classes, the first of whose fares are deductible against tax and the second who have to pay for their fares out of taxed income, and that the low fares envisaged here would be most valuable to the second class?
LORD WINSTER: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether it is not the case that B.O.A.C. and other air lines would wish to reduce the fares on some of the International services but are prevented from doing so by decisions of I.A.T.A.? B.O.A.C. is actually anxious to reduce some of the fares.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: I understand that that is in fact so.

REBUILDING OF LONDON BARRACKS
LORD JEFFREYS: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the long time which the rebuilding in succession of the London barracks is likely to take, they will consider borrowing the necessary money, so as to make it possible for more than one of these barracks to be rebuilt at the same time.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, there seems to be some hiatus on the Front Bench; it has taken us by surprise. I think my noble friend, Lord Onslow, meant to answer this Question. Perhaps with the noble Lord's permission we could

275
find some other time later to-day, when I can get hold of my noble friend to answer the Question.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether, as was courteously done by the Front Bench not long ago, the noble Lord could ask his Question at the end of the Questions on the Paper? That was done for me not long ago.
THE EARL OF HOME: Yes, if that is agreeable to the noble Lord. I am sorry the spokesman for the Government is not in his place at this moment.
LORD JEFFREYS: My Lords, I will take another opportunity, if I may, of asking this Question. Meanwhile, I would ask whether Her Majesty's Government are aware that these barracks are among the worst in the whole Kingdom, and that Wellington Barracks in particular has been condemned for at least forty years.

WATER SUPPLIES IN THE SOUTH-EAST
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, I beg to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can now institute hydrological surveys in the three South-Eastern statistical areas where Figure 7, Appendix II, shows that the surplus of water over demand is lowest. (Reference is to the First Report from the Central Advisory Water Committee's Sub-Committee on The Growing Demand for Water.)]
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I find myself in the same position that I was in a moment ago. I shall have to try to find my noble friend in the shortest possible time and ask him to answer the noble Earl's Question then.

BY-PASS FOR KING'S LYNN
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, if there is somebody to answer it, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider provision of a short-length by-pass road for King's Lynn, to accommodate the yearly increasing North South traffic, including that from across the Ouse.]
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, it is a new experience to me to be welcomed as I am about to answer a Question. The Norfolk County Development Plan includes a proposal for a bypass of King's Lynn. The length of the proposed by-pass is about five miles. The Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation is at present in touch with the Norfolk County Council about the inclusion of this by-pass in the road programme. However, I would warn the noble Earl that even with the current high level of expenditure on roads, so much needs to be done that my right honourable friend sees little prospect of being able to authorise an early start on the construction of this by-pass at present.
In the interim period in order to assist traffic in the town, my right honourable friend has authorised an improvement at the junction of A.47 and A.149 at South Gates, and is discussing with the County Council their proposals to improve Gaywood Road level crossing and East-gate Bridge on A.149.
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, that is a fairly favourable answer, and I thank the noble Earl for it. The part of the Question which talks about aiding North-South traffic is the part which I want to make the subject of a supplementary question, if the noble Earl will allow me. I understand that the voices of Norfolk are not so clamant as those in some other parts of the country to which the Ministry has to attend. But do not Her Majesty's Government think that a sort of quid pro quo or douceur might be handed out to the community which is suffering as the result of the metals having been taken up from the Midland and Great Northern Railway track, which railway jigs all along the upper levels of Norfolk and does not cover a straight line of country? The bus company who have taken the place of the railway would also be greatly helped if the Government could give special additional grants to encourage

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them. They are, after all, a private enterprise and not, like the railway, a nationalised concern. I would ask the Government whether they do not think that the community might be given special aid by way of grants.
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I would first of all say that I am grateful that the noble Earl was not disappointed after the acclamation he gave me when I started to answer his original Question. I am sure that my right honourable friend is taking and will take into account the special considerations which have resulted not from the actual removal of the metals but from the removal of certain passenger trains from that area. I would remind him that the proposal to close the line was put in the usual way to the Area Transport Users Consultative Committee and that their recommendation in favour of closure went to and was supported by the Central Transport Consultative Committee. When considering applications to close lines and withdraw services the consultative committees do go into the question of alternative bus services. However, I will naturally bring my right honourable friend's attention to what the noble Earl has said about the special position.
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: I thank the noble Earl very much.
LORD WISE: My Lords, might I, from this side, add a further voice from Norfolk, and remind the noble Earl that in his reply he referred to two level crossings in King's Lynn but not to the level crossing which has been the bone of contention for the last 50 years. the level crossing at Tennyson Avenue? That level crossing holds up all the traffic, North and South, which comes through Lynn, and it should be greatly improved or altered. The by-pass will help the traffic which goes North and South, but might I ask the noble Earl whether he is aware that unless the Tennyson Avenue crossing is improved there is no remedy at all for the terrible troubles which the interior traffic in King's Lynn xperiences?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I am not personally aware of that particular situation, because, unfortunately, it is some years since I have been to King's Lynn. However, I will certainly
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look into the matter and will write to the noble Earl as soon as I find out what the situation is.

DEATHS IN KENYA DETENTION CAMP
2.45 p.m.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question by Private Notice concerning the Hola case. The Question is: Whether the Government will make available to this House the text of the Cowan plan and of the coroner's report on the Hola case; whether the dead men were detainees or convicts; and what compensation will be paid to their dependants, if any.
THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE EARL OF PERTH): My Lords, the one available copy of the coroner's report has already been placed in the Library of the House of Commons. As soon as further copies become available—I hope that that will be very soon—one will be placed in the Printed Paper Office. The text of the Cowan plan is contained in the coroner's report as Exhibit "P". All of the dead men were detainees. Four had been convicted of Mau Mau offences but subsequently their sentences had been commuted under prerogative powers to enable them to he transferred to detention camps for rehabilitation. The Kenya Government are considering the question of payments to the dependants of the dead.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, it is a pity that we cannot have a copy of the report. I should have thought that it could have been printed; it has been printed in Kenya. Does the noble Earl accept this statement or is this in the report: Mr Goudie said that the Cowan plan, which apparently had Government backing and approval gave intentional or unintentional carte blanche in forcing detainees to carry out a task? There was beating to compel detainees to work or punishment for not working. The latter was entirely unjustified and illegal. And does the noble Earl accept this comment from The Times:
"They were beaten to death in the course of an attempt by the warders to compel them to work. The Cowan plan led straight to the fatal result."?
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I have already said that I hope that copies of the report will be available very soon. This is a bulky report and copies have not come in. We have already sent a cable asking for further copies which will be available soon. In regard to the second point, I do not accept the comment as published in the papers which the noble Viscount has read out. I think that when he sees the report he will see the reasons for that. The Cowan plan was not illegal in its instruction. It was fully understood, and I think that the inference that was drawn was not correct.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS BOROUGH: My Lords, the House knows, of course, that in all parts of the country there is a good deal of anxiety about the situation. The right honourable gentleman the Minister said last week that Her Majesty's Government were awaiting the report to the Governor—I take it that he was referring to the report of the Attorney-General for Kenya. Might we know if that report has been received or when it will be received, for upon that report will depend any questions that we should wish to put as to action to be taken.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I believe that the Attorney-General has informed the Governor that the available evidence does not permit the framing of a charge against identified individuals in respect of identified illegal force used in the course of the operation. He has thus reached the same conclusion as the magistrate who undertook the judicial investigation, who said:
"It is impossible to determine beyond reasonable doubt which injuries on the deceased were caused by justifiable and which by unjustifiable blows, and which injuries or which combination of injuries resulted in the shock or hemorrhage causing death."
Disciplinary proceedings are, however, to be initiated against the Camp Commandant, Mr. Sullivan, and against Mr. Coutts. Meanwhile they are being interdicted from duty. No disciplinary charges are contemplated against the ordinary staff.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, the noble Earl will observe that the Question I put had nothing whatever to do with alleged private offenders. It is a direct attack on the policy of the Kenya Government.
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, may I ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the extremely rapid and accurate methods of duplication which are available to-day, there is any real reason for treating the two Houses differently in respect of the production of a report like this?
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, frankly, we considered that matter. This report came in yesterday. It consisted of some 150 to 200 pages, and we were hoping that by to-day another copy would have been received, which would have been exactly the same as that already available. But if it is your Lordships' wish, knowing that a further copy will in any case be coming very shortly, I will consider the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS BOROUGH: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Earl—and I may say at once that we are glad that some disciplinary action is being taken in this matter—whether or not other members of the staff concerned in this matter have been given notice of suspension until further disciplinary action is considered, or have been suspended? Does the suspension apply only to the two persons named?
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, the suspension applies only to the two persons named, for the reasons I have already given.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl when we shall have an opportunity of examining the merits of the Cowan plan?
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, if, when he has seen the report, the noble Viscount wishes to put down a Question or to move through the usual channels we shall be very happy.

REBUILDING OF LONDON BARRACKS
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, with the permission of the House, may I say that my two noble friends are now in a position, if your Lordships will allow them, to answer the Questions on the Order Paper. I would apologise to my two noble friends who had put down the Questions for the fact that something went wrong in the posting arrangements. I will make sure that that does not happen again.
LORD JEFFREYS: My Lords, may I again ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper may now be answered?
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the long time which the rebuilding in succession of the London barracks is likely to take, they will consider borrowing the necessary money, so as to make it possible for more than one of these barracks to be rebuilt at the same time.]
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, may I, a very junior officer, apologise to the noble Lord, a very senior officer in the Brigade, for delaying him in this way. As my noble Leader has said, there was a slight hitch in the post. The decision to rebuild Chelsea, Hyde Park and Wellington Barracks in succession was taken not for any financial reason but because Her Majesty's Household troops cannot effectively discharge their duties in London if more than one of these barracks is out of use at the same time.
LORD JEFFREYS: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether Her Majesty's Government are aware that these barracks are very bad indeed—among the worst in the world—and that the worst of all of them is Wellington Barracks, close by Buckingham Palace? May I also ask whether Her Majesty's Government cannot bring the men up for duty by train, either from Caterham or possibly Pirbright, and whether that would not hasten the rebuilding of these barracks, which is so urgently required?
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are well aware of the state of these barracks, and there
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is no doubt that the noble Lord has put some very interesting suggestions which I will certainly convey to my right honourable friend the Minister for War.

WATER SUPPLIES IN THE SOUTH-EAST
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, may I now put the Question Standing in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can now institute hydrological surveys in the three South-Eastern statistical areas where Fig. 7, Appendix II, shows that the surplus of supply over demand is lowest. (Reference is to the first report from the Central Advisory Water Committee's Sub-Committee on The Growing Demand for Water.)]
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I must apologise to the noble Earl for not having earlier the Answer to his Question. Again, I regret that owing to a factor of post I have no further details beyond those which, with your Lordships' leave, I shall read to the noble Lord in answer. Should he have any further question, shall, of course, be only too pleased to take it up with my right honourable friend the Minister.
The problems of supply and demand in the three South-Eastern statistical areas are already being examined by other means. Hydrological surveys are now in hand, however, for the Severn and Great Ouse to assess the capacity of these rivers to meet the large additional and urgent demands. The experience gained from these surveys will enable my right honourable friend to decide whether such surveys should be undertaken in other areas.
THE EARL OF ALBEMARLE: My Lords, may I thank the noble Earl for that Answer, which does not at all go to the root of the matter as expressed in the Report referred to on the Paper. I should like to ask whether the expressed policy of the right honourable gentleman the Minister of Housing and Local Government is that before we can do any good in assessing the needs for future demands for water we must have 400 river gauges. We now have only about 120 or 130, and I understand that that is

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the expressed policy of the Ministry. The recommendations of the Report show perfectly clearly that by 1965 three areas in the South-East of England will be on a very narrow margin of supply over demand—a matter which the Report begs should be attended to before the much larger task of undertaking hydrological surveys all over England, or on the Severn or anywhere else, is considered.
EARL BATHURST: My Lords. I assure the noble Earl that I will look into what he says, and will write to him after I have consulted with my right honourable friend.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he is aware. as I pointed out in this House not long ago, that an adequate supply of water is one of the pressing national needs, and whether there is any reason why these other inquiries should not go on independently of the Severn inquiry to which the noble Earl has drawn attention?
EARL BATHURST: My Lords, I am sure that my right honourable friend will consider what the noble Viscount has said.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I should like to put this point to the noble Earl, the Leader of the House. We know that accidents will sometimes happen, such as happened about Questions to-day, but we are a little concerned about the fact that it should come back to a question of posts. That, I understood, was the explanation. We are very anxious and we hope that such economies are not going on as to prevent a proper private secretary service to Ministers who have to answer for other Departments in this House, whose private secretaries would have the duty of seeing that the Minister is duly notified of the time, place and substance of an Answer for his consideration before he has to submit it.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I should like to look into the question of this particular breakdown in our machinery. I am not sure whether it is a matter of the post. I was told that it was "communications" which caused the delay in the Answers. I will look into this matter, and I hope I can guarantee to the House that it will not happen again.
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I certainly take the point made by the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition.

SPACE RESEARCH
3.0 p.m.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I should like to inform the House that my noble friend the Lord President of the Council will be making a statement at about 3.45 p.m. on space research.

FATAL ACCIDENTS BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
LEGITIMACY BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (WEST HERTFORDSHIRE MAIN DRAINAGE) BILL
House in Committee (according to Order) on Report from the Unopposed Bill Committee: Bill reported without amendment.

JUDICIAL OFFICES (SALARIES) ORDER, 1959
3.3 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR)rose to move, That the Judicial Offices (Salaries) Order, 1959, be approved. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, the object of the Order is to make the same relative increases in the salaries of the Recorders of Liverpool and Manchester, the county court judges and the Metropolitan Police magistrates as the increases in the salaries of the higher civil servants recommended by the Standing Advisory Committee on the Pay of the Higher Civil Service, the acceptance of whose recommendations was announced by my honourable and learned friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on April 24 of this year.
The salaries of the Recorders of Liverpool and Manchester, the county court

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judges and the Metropolitan stipendiary magistrates were fixed at their present figures by Section 1 (1) of the Judicial Offices (Salaries and Pensions) Act, 1957, and were related to the increases in the salaries of higher civil servants which were made in 1956 as a result of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service. The need for legislation in the case of the judicial salaries led to the increases made by the Act of 1957 being delayed for more than a year after the increases received by the Civil Service. In order to avoid the need for legislation in future, Section 1 (4) of the Act enabled any further increase in salary to be made by means of an Order made by myself, with the consent of the Treasury and subject to Affirmative Resolution. The salaries which will now be paid are set out the Order. I do not think I need trouble your Lordships with any further detail about the Order, but if any noble Lord has any questions I shall, of course, do my best to answer them. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Judicial Offices (Salaries) Order, 1959, be approved.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, I rise first of all to welcome this measure which I think is long overdue. I hope that, in spite of the formidable-looking agenda before the House this afternoon, I may be permitted to say a few general words on this subject. It may comfort the House to know that in saying these words I am also saying what I might otherwise have said on the next Order on the Paper—namely, the Metropolitan Magistrates' Courts Bill.
I feel that this question of remuneration of our judicial servants is of the greatest importance. We pride ourselves that we have the finest Judiciary in the world, and I think certainly it has been true of the last fifty years. But we can expect to get the very best judicial body only by providing for them conditions which, are satisfactory. There is no doubt at all in my mind, from information I have, that a good many of our judges, particularly county court judges, and magistrates have been living in relative penury during the last few years, certainly since the war. The increase in their remuneration has not kept pace with the rising cost of living, and even before the war their remuneration was not
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exactly generous. Judges have a position to maintain. They have to maintain a contain amount of aloofness from the general public. For instance, I think it is highly undignified for a magistrate or a judge to have to queue up for a bus on his way to court, and possibly run the risk of being accosted by people who are to come before him later—I have known that to happen in my experience. Generally speaking, I feel that we ought to be generous to members of our judicial body. If we are not, we run the risk of not attracting the best type of barrister and of lowering the general character of our Judiciary.
My Lords, I feel that this Order goes a long way towards meeting the situation. But it is not only a question of remuneration; there is also the question of pensions. A good many retired judges and magistrates have a legitimate grievance in so far as their pensions have not kept pace with the cost of living. A pension which was a reasonable pension, say, in 1940, or even 1950, is to-day an unreasonable pension. While it is not strictly material to this Order, I would ask the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor whether he would give sympathetic consideration to the possibility of increasing the pensions of those judges and magistrates who retired some years ago and whose pensions have not been increased adequately to meet the cost of living
There are two other matters that I want to mention very briefly, though I recognise that, strictly, this is not the proper occasion. If we are to attract the best type of member of the Bar to either county court judgeships or magistracies, then there ought to be adequate opportunities of promotion to the High Court. In the last fifty years only one or two county court judges, I think—there may have been more; some may have escaped my notice—have been promoted to be High Court Judges. There must be more than that number who are suitable for such promotion, and if the feeling got around that, by accepting the position of a county court judge or a magistrate, that was the end of the road and there was no opportunity for advancement, then. I think it would be a very bad day for our Judiciary.
I would ask the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor, who is to

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a large extent responsible for the appointment of High Court Judges, and the Prime Minister, too, whether they will not seriously consider appointing far more county court judges, or even magistrates, to the High Court as and when they are found to be suitable. It cannot be that nobody suitable has been available for promotion in the last, say, twenty-five years. Not only do I regard that as unthinkable, but, if it were true, it would be a very serious reflection on the quality of our county court judges and our magistrates.
Finally (and I have informed the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor at various times that I have this matter very much in mind), there is the question of the salaries of deputy county court judges. We use a great many of them, and it saves the appointment of county court judges. If we did not make use of retired judges as deputies, we should have to appoint more judges. Now, speaking very roughly, the remuneration of a county court judge today, with the increased remuneration, would be of the order of about £30 a sitting. The remuneration of the deputy is ten guineas. That is out of all proportion to the relative value of their work. After all, the retired county court judge who is acting as a deputy is a man of very great experience and long service, and should be worth as much as the acting county court judge: certainly far more than one-third of the remuneration. I hope that something can be done in this respect, also. May I conclude first by apologising to the House for raising matters which are perhaps a little extraneous to this Order; and then by asking the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor whether these increases date from to-day, or are retrospective; or, if not, when they begin?
3.13 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, perhaps I may deal with the various points which the noble Lord has raised. The first was with regard to the scale of salaries. I am in sympathy with his general view, but I think it is right that your Lordships should be aware of the alterations that have taken place. Before the war, in 1937, county court judges were paid £2,000 a year. That was raised in 1952 to £2,800. The noble Lord will remember that the change,
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which was started under our predecessors in Government, who had gone a certain length in making the arrangements, was taken over by the present Administration: it was an agreed measure. Then, in 1957, as the House will remember, the figure was raised, by the Act to which I referred, to £3,750; and it is now being raised, by the Order now before your Lordships, to £4,400. The Chief Metropolitan Magistrate, if I may save your Lordships detailed figures, gets practically the same amount; and the salary of the metropolitan magistrates has risen in the same four stages: from £2,000 a year to £2,500; then to £3,400 in 1957, and to £3,800 to-day. So that I feel that a good step has been taken in the direction which the noble Lord desires—a direction with which, as I say, I have sympathy.
With regard to pensions, on the completion of service for the full period the judge in question is entitled to a pension of half the figures I have given; so that to-day it will be £2,200 for a county court judge, £1,900 for a Metropolitan magistrate, and £2,200 for the Chief Metropolitan Magistrate. My Lords, these pensions, of course, must be considered in relation to the value of money and the increased taxation. On the other hand, one has always to bear in mind, on the other side of that picture, the great difficulty to-day of the professional man saving enough from his earnings to provide an income for his old age. It is a very difficult task, and therefore the pensionable job has an increased value. Coming to the other point on pensions which the noble Lord raised, I am always very doubtful as to where the proprieties lie in these matters, but I think that it is perfectly proper for me to say that a Pensions Increase Bill has been announced; and I think it is again proper to ask the noble Lord to see that Bill before he says anything further on this point.
Now with regard to promotions, there again the noble Lord has raised an interesting point. Again I hope that he will forgive me for answering "off the cuff", without having verified my details, but the position is somewhat more favourable than he mentioned. There was a long gap from, I think, the time when Mr. Justice Acton was promoted from the County Court Bench; but during the time of my noble predecessor, the noble and learned Earl, Lord Jowitt, there were

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three promotions at once that I can remember—Mr. Justice Austin Jones, Mr. Justice Finnemore, and Mr. Justice Collingwood. There was also Mr. Justice Ormerod. In my own time, Mr. Justice Ormerod, who started on the County Court Bench, then served in the Divorce Division and later in the Queen's Bench Division, has been promoted to the Court of Appeal. I may add that I think that is the first time in our history that someone who started on the County Court Bench has been promoted to the Court of Appeal. Also, Mr. Justice Wrangham was promoted from the County Court Bench a short time ago. He was a county court judge in the North, and is now a Judge of the Divorce Division. So the noble Lord will see that this is a matter which, certainly since the war, has been well in the minds of Lord Chancellors; and I assure him that it will remain in my mind.
On the noble Lord's final point—the salaries paid to deputy county court judges—I should like to tell him that this again is a matter with which I have great sympathy. I shall let him know as soon as I have anything to report, but I hope that he will accept that it is a matter on which I am working at the present time.
My Lords, thanks to the fact that your Lordships have allowed me to deal with salaries by Affirmative Resolution, instead of by Act of Parliament, the increases in the salaries will follow very closely the dates of the increases of salaries in the Civil Service; and therefore there will not on this occasion be a period of retrospection. I hope that I have dealt with all the points raised by the noble Lord, and I thank him for raising them. Once again, I should like to express my general sympathy with the views that he has expressed.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

METROPOLITAN MAGISTRATES' COURTS BILL [H.L.]
3.20 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I rise to move the Second Reading of this Bill. As your Lordships will see from the Explanatory Memorandum, the Bill seeks to do four things. First of all,
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we want to increase the number of permanent Metropolitan stipendiary magistrates. We are asking for a maximum of an extra eight magistrates, although desiring immediately to appoint two only. Secondly, the Bill provides for the appointment by me of acting Metropolitan stipendiary magistrates in order to avoid delays in the administration of justice. Thirdly, it seeks to enable the Receiver for the Metropolitan Police District to hold land and buildings for the purpose of the probation service in the Metropolitan stipendiary courts area, and fourthly, to confer additional borrowing powers on the Receiver. In view of what the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, says, it may be that I can address your Lordships somewhat more shortly than I should otherwise have done, because obviously he has considered the Bill. May I put the various points as briefly as I can?
The first point, the need for more Metropolitan magistrates, springs from the regrettable increase in criminal offences in recent years, of which your Lordships have heard a great deal in the past few months. Unfortunately, there is no sign of any change in this trend. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary announced in anoiter place last months that in the first three quarters of 1958 there had been a rise in indictable offences reported throughout the country of 14.7 per cent. compared with the number in the corresponding period in 1957, and the courts with which we are dealing, which cover the area of Central London, have borne their full share of the work arising from this increase. By reason of the area which they serve, these courts have always had more than an average share of difficult cases, those which raise complicated questions of law or sometimes require the attendance of many witnesses and occupy many days for the hearing in the magistrates' court. With all the reservations attached to total figures, I would inform your Lordships that the total figures for charges and summonses for the twelve months ended March 31 in every year over the last four years are as follows: 178,000, 193,000, 209,000 and 223,000. It is clear that an increasingly heavy burden has been falling upon the courts.
The other point on which your Lordships would like to be assured is that everything possible is being done by all concerned to deal with the increased work

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as speedily as possible to avoid delay. I am assured by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary that the magistrates themselves and the staffs of the courts have worked hard and consistently and have done what they can by improving organisation within the limits possible with the existing court buildings. I am also assured that valuable help has been given by the lay justices for the County of London. They deal with various classes of cases which are prescribed by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary and, in addition, lay justices have been sitting at a separate court at Bow Street for some years and others have recently begun to sit at Old Street and Tower Bridge Metropolitan Magistrates' Courts.
We feel that that is not enough to deal with the situation. It is most important that the administration of justice should be as swift as is compatible with fairness and thoroughness. I am sorry to say that, despite all that everyone could do, recently in dealing with cases in the Metropolitan magistrates' courts there have been delays which, in the best interests of the administration of justice, cannot be allowed to continue. Even if the offence be a minor one, it is undesirable that a case should not be tried for many weeks after it was alleged to have been committed; and if there is delay when a person is in custody on a more serious charge, the consequences are more serious still. Therefore we are convinced that it is essential to have more stipendiary magistrates as soon as possible.
The maximum number allowed by the law is twenty-seven, a number that was fixed by the Metropolitan Police Courts Act, 1839. The maximum number of twenty-seven was reached in 1954 and, as your Lordships will gather from the figures I have given, since then there has been a great increase in crime. Therefore we are asking Parliament to let us increase the permissible number to thirty-five. As I say, I want to appoint two more at once, one on general work and the other to make it possible for an experienced magistrate to concentrate on long and difficult cases arising anywhere in the Metropolitan stipendiary courts area. We have taken the number of thirty-five in order to allow a margin for future possibilities and to prevent a need
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for further legislation, if the work continues to increase. Your Lordships will remember that when I was dealing with a similar Bill with regard to the county courts, your Lordships asked me to take a good margin in these matters. Therefore, I have taken that line here.
The second part of the Bill allows me to appoint a temporary magistrate in order to deal with periods of pressure of work. I have already the right to appoint a magistrate to take the place of a magistrate who is sick or retired, but I want to have the power to prevent these delays, which have been really disturbing during the last few months. I do not think that I need say anything more about that.
The remaining clauses of the Bill are also concerned with the Metropolitan area. The Receiver for the Metropolitan Police is an officer appointed by the Crown who is responsible for providing and administering the land, buildings and equipment required not only by the Metropolitan Police Force but also by the Metropolitan magistrates' courts. It is his responsibility to arrange for the building or acquisition of police stations, police houses and other police buildings and magistrates' courts. Clause 3 deals with the power of the Receiver to provide premises for probation purposes. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary is the probation authority for the Metropolitan stipendiary courts area, and the probationary expenses in that area are met, on his direction, out of the Metropolitan Police Fund. So that clearly the Receiver, who is the responsible officer for this fund, is the proper person to provide the offices necessary to enable the probation officers to perform their important work.
But existing legislation gives him no specific power to hold land and buildings for this purpose. This clause gives him the same power to provide land and buildings for probation purposes as he has for police purposes and the purposes of the Metropolitan magistrates' courts. Since the Receiver has already, at the request of my right honourable friend, entered into certain leases of property for probation offices—this is a vital work, and I hope your Lordships will not think the action was improper—it is necessary to validate his position.
Clause 4 deals with the power of the Receiver to borrow money for appropriate purposes connected with his

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various functions. In the past, that permission has been given for specific reasons, but we are now in a stage where the capital investment policy is so carefully considered, first of all, by the Departmental Minister—in this case my right honourable friend the Home Secretary—and then by the Treasury, that I do not think your Lordships will feel it is necessary to place any limits, as any specific action that the Receiver might take would have to be approved by these two authorities.
I have tried to shorten the matter, but I am afraid I have still been rather long. I hope your Lordships will think that this Bill is a useful step towards the improvement of the administration of justice in Central London and will prove of benefit to the courts, the legal profession, the police and all those who are affected. As the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, said in his admirable speech, we should not forget the importance of the administration of justice and of making proper provision for it. I submit to your Lordships that all these points I have put before you will help in that direction. I beg to move.
Moved, that the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
3.32 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has certainly made the case for this Bill right up to the hilt, and we on this side of the House will do nothing to impede its progress. The main case, of course, is the increase in crime. But is there not a subsidiary reason for requiring more magistrates—namely, the increase in the number of offences, as distinct from crime? I must not make rash statements, but I suppose that most of us are at some time or another offenders, inasmuch as we have all left our cars in unauthorised places; and that also is taking up the time of an increasing number of magistrates. The noble and learned Viscount has said that there is considerable delay. I happen to know that there is a delay of nearly six months from the time of the commission of an offence, such as a parking offence, to the time when the matter comes before a magistrate. As the Lord Chancellor said, that is most undesirable. Happily, that is not the position in regard to crime, which is dealt with more
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speedily, although not speedily enough. There is no doubt that there is a case for more magistrates, but I hope that the increase in the number will not be frittered away in dealing with parking offenders, thus leaving us in the same position as regards the real purpose behind the Bill.
I should like to ask two questions of the noble and learned Viscount, the first dealing with accommodation. Even in the days when I had some acquaintance with the courts, which I am afraid is a long time ago, the courts were congested. With the increase in the number of offences, I wonder how the actual physical work of conducting hearings can be carried out and where the increased number of magistrates will carry on their work. I speak subject to correction, but I should have thought that we needed substantially more courts to-day than we did twenty-five or thirty years ago. Secondly, is the noble and learned Viscount satisfied with the geographical distribution of these courts, in London? London was a much different place at the time when these courts were built and the location was decided, and the burden of population has greatly altered to-day. There has been a great shift in population and in the incidence of crime: in some neighbourhoods there is more crime, and in others there is less. I wonder whether the location of the different courts to-day is suitable for the requirements of the present time. I do not know whether that point has been examined at all, but I should be glad to hear what the Lord Chancellor has to say about it.
LORD MESTON: My Lords, if I am not out of order, I should like to ask the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack two questions. First of all, can he tell me whether there is any age limit to a person appointed under the Bill? Secondly, are there any restrictions on the appointment of former—that is to say, retired—stipendiary magistrates?
3.36 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, perhaps I may answer the noble Lord, Lord Meston, first. The only age limit to appointment is the age limit on retirement; they cannot be appointed older than the age at which they would retire. Otherwise it is a matter for my discretion. As to the other point, I do

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not think there is anything to prevent the utilisation of the services of someone who has served as a stipendiary. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, raised two points, the first as to the need for new courts generally. I think there is such a need, and there is a special reason for it which the noble Lord will appreciate. It is essential, if you are going to combine the services of a stipendiary magistrate and lay magistrates, that they should be in the same court, because, as the Maxwell Committee pointed out—I have not gone into it, but it is well known to those who study the matter—it would be intolerable for the prosecutor or complainant to choose the forum in which he prosecutes or makes a complaint in quasi-criminal proceedings. Therefore what we really want are courts which will house not only a stipendiary magistrate but lay magistrates such as one finds in provincial courts with which I happen to be familiar, such as Liverpool.
We have the other point very much in mind at the moment. I am sorry to say, having been connected with the matter now for eight years, that new courts have been far down in the building queue. I do not say that they have been roughly in the same sort of place in the queue as prisons, and I have managed to secure a few new courts in the country as a whole, although not nearly as many as I should have liked. It is very much in the minds of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary and myself that when they are built they should be spaced to meet the new conditions. I will certainly convey all that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, has said specifically to the Receiver, who has to consider it at the official level. Apart from that. I thank your Lordships for the reception of the Bill and I am sure that it will benefit the administration of justice in Central London.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the whole House.

SPACE RESEARCH
3.40 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords your Lordships may be interested to know of the following Answer which the Prime Minister has given this afternoon to Questions in another place about space research.
"There are two problems to be considered in relation to a British contribution to space research; the nature and design of the instruments to be carried into space; and the means by which the containers for these instruments are launched.
"With regard to the first, with the assistance of Fellows of the Royal Society and with the endorsement of the Advisory Council on Scientific Policy, a programme for the design and construction of instruments to be carried in earth satellites has been approved. Work will begin at once.
"With regard to the second, there may well be scope for joint action with the United States, with the Commonwealth or with other countries. We therefore plan to send to Washington a team of experts, including Professor H. S. W. Massey, to discuss possible Anglo-American co-operation; and we are also opening consultations with other Commonwealth countries.
"Meanwhile, however, design studies are also being put in hand for the adaptation of the British military rockets which are now under development. This will put us in a position, should we decide to do so, to make an all-British effort.
"I",—
that, of course, is the Prime Minister in the context—
"have asked my noble friend, the Lord President of the Council, in consultation with my right honourable friend the Minister of Supply and other Ministers concerned, to exercise general supervision of these new developments."
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS BOROUGH: My Lords, we are greatly obliged to the Lord President of the Council for giving us this information. I can see nothing very special to comment

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upon at the moment. We are glad that the matter has been done with the full advice of the Advisory Council, and that apparently there is to be all possible effort to co-operate with other countries. I thought at first sight that it was the United States and the Commonwealth. In this particularly important and yet, in some respects, dangerous development of space research, the more it can be kept on an international basis, especially with those who think of the freedom and liberty of the individual, the better it will be for the world: the more international it is in its co-operation the better.
LORD REA: My Lords, I should like to support the plea that this matter should be kept on an international basis, not only for the good of the world and because of the danger that may be involved, but for the financial involvement concerned. I hope that Her Majesty's Government—and I have no doubt they will—will keep a careful eye on the production when we are going from a world of three dimensions and five senses to another world in which we may find an infinite and unknown number of both. As we may be landed in a large commitment, I apologise that instead of, as usual, urging the Government to do something, I urge them not to undertake too much.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, could the noble Viscount tell us whether the opinion of the Astronomer Royal has been sought on matters of space research, and if so what his opinion is?
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, perhaps the Lord President would he good enough to answer this question. It may be that there are military aspects in this matter, perhaps even to the extent of sending up these vehicles to ascertain what other people are doing about fallout, explosions, and the rest of it. If that is so, maybe there is a case for confining these experiments to the Commonwealth. Secondly, I would ask whether the Government will do everything in their power to secure adequate contributions from the Commonwealth countries who will share in the pride of achievement, if there is any, and in the safeguarding of results, if there are any.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, before the noble Viscount replies, may I ask him to consult not the present Astronomer Royal, as my noble friend
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Lord Taylor asked, but the former Astronomer Royal, who is taking a leading part and showing great initiative in developing international co-operation in this field? Whilst I am impressed at the aplomb with which your Lordships have accepted this really striking statement, might I wholeheartedly welcome the Government's initiative and say that I hope it is only a beginning of a much greater effort which will provide British scientists with the opportunities they desire?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have asked these supplementary questions, and I would seek to answer them as best I can. As my right honourable friend said in his statement, we have the international aspect very much in mind. On the other hand, the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, will also be aware that it is a very long story. As the noble Viscount probably knows, there is a non-Governmental scientific body known as the Committee for Space Research or, less elegantly, as "COSPAR"; and Professor Massey, who is a member of our team and who, as I have said, is going to the United States, is ion the executive board of that body. On that body the United States and the Russians, as well as ourselves, are co-operating.
On the other hand, I ought also to say that the United Nations Assembly last autumn set up an ad hoc Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space to report to the next Assembly on the area of international co-operation in the peaceful uses of outer space which could appropriately be undertaken under U.N. auspices and the future organisation of arrangements to facilitate such co-operation. That Committee is again one with which Her Majesty's Government, and, I think, the American Government, are co-operating, though, unhappily, the Russians are not.
As regards the question of my noble friend Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, it is, of course, true that in many countries the launching vehicles were not unconnected with defence matters. We are certainly already inquiring of the Commonwealth what their contribution can be to this project. Undoubtedly the Commonwealth, and in particular Australia, has done a great deal in our valuable work in connection with the Skylark rocket, which is a vertical sounding rocket. I

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think I am right in saying that the Commonwealth as a whole is co-operating with both the international bodies that I have mentioned, so I think at this stage we are doing what we can, and I hoped that we should carry the House with us. As regards the two Astronomers Royal, I think I ought to be a little cautious, because I gather from the two noble Lords opposite that there is perhaps a difference of opinion between those great men.
LORD AMWELL: My Lords, in considering the peaceful use of space research I hope that the Ministry will not forget such matters as the peaceful use of cancerresearch and so forth.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that I have that matter very much in mind. I am, of course, the Minister responsible for the Medical Research Council, and I can assure him that I have had very much in mind from the outset the correct deployment of our financial resources in different scientific spheres. If I thought that what was now being done was in any way a rival to cancer research, or even that cancer research was being held up for purely financial reseasons, I might take a different view. But I do not regard these two projects as rivals, and I feel that one must examine the merits of research projects in the light of hopeful leads and available personnel, rather than in mere terms of cash.

RATING AND VALUATION BILL
3.52 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Dundee.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Postponement of new valuation lists, and restriction on proposals for altering current lists
(3) Notwithstanding anything in section forty of the said Act of 1948 (which enables proposals to be made for the alteration of valuation lists) a proposal for altering a valuation list in force at the passing of this Act (not
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being a proposal made by the valuation officer)—

(a) shall not have effect if served on the valuation officer after the passing of this Act, and

(b) shall be deemed never to have had effect if served on the valuation officer before the passing of this Act but on or after the twelfth day of February, nineteen hundred and fifty-nine,

unless (in either case) it is or was a proposal made by the owner or occupier of the hereditament to which it relates, or a proposal made by virtue of subsection (2A) of the said section forty (which enables a rating authority to make proposals with respect to hereditaments not included in the valuation list).
LORD LATHAM LORD LATHAM moved in Clause 1 to leave out subsection (3). The noble Lord said: Having returned from the rarefied atmosphere of the mysteries of space, we may now perhaps deal with a matter which is certainly very earthy. Whether there will come a time when assessments and valuations will be necessary in outer space is a matter which is not, at all events, dealt with in the present Bill. Rating and valuation is not an attractive subject and its very complexity rather militates against brevity. It is, however, a very important element in the local government of this country, for rates produce some 38 per cent. of the total local government expenditure; that is to say, rates produce some £555 million, which is based upon a rateable value of some £601 million after deduction of de-rating for agriculture, industry and commerce.
The Amendment in terms is a simple one, but it is important. It asks that the situation which presently exists should be left and that the proposal to remove the right of local authorities and ratepayers to lodge what is known as third party proposals should be left unimpaired. The purpose of this Bill was not to deal with the fundamental provisions of rating. It is a Bill the purpose of which is to postpone the next valuation from 1961 to 1963. There are no grounds arising from that postponement, if in fact it is justified, which justify a fundamental change in the procedure of rating. This right of lodging third party proposals is long established; it goes back at least as far as 1925. It was and is an essential element of the procedure of quinquennial valuations that if it happens that during the period of the quinquennium there is an unfairness or an incorrection in regard to any particular assessment, then the

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local authority as the rating authority and any ratepayer is entitled to raise the question on the grounds that comparison may show that unfairness exists. Subsection (3) of Clause 1 of this Bill takes away that right until March 31, 1963. The purpose of the Amendment is to retain that right. It will be seen, therefore, that there is a fundamental difference between the Bill and the Amendment.
By Section 40 of the Local Government Act, 1948, any person who is aggrieved by the value ascribed to any, hereditament in the current valuation list may at any time make a proposal for the alteration of the list so far as it relates to that hereditament. The person making the proposal need not necessarily have any interest in the hereditament to which the proposal relates, although he must specifically be aggrieved in some way by its assessment in the list. As I have said, such proposals are known as third party proposals, and they extend to include the right possessed by local rating authorities. It is a basic and indefeasible principle of rating that as between different classes of property and as between properties in the same class the valuation lists shall be fair and equal. The only remedy open to a ratepayer who is assessed unfairly by comparison with other properties but who cannot show that his own assessment is incorrect of itself is to make a third party proposal. As regards local authorities, under-assessment of one class of hereditament throws an unfair rate burden on the occupiers of others. Over-assessment is also, of course, unfair to the individual ratepayer.
The Minister, opening the debate on the Second Reading of the Bill on 23rd February of this year, sought to justify this proposal in Clause 1 (3) on the grounds that if there is to be a general postponement of new valuation lists a door ought not to be left open to secure partial revaluations by means of proposals for alterations of lists, and he went on to state that there is a precedent in Section 22 of the Rating and Valuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1955. It is important to note that this provision was operative only from the passing of the Act in July, 1955, until the new lists came into force in April, 1956. That suspension of power endured for only eight months, whereas the proposal in the new Bill is to operate from the date the
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Bill was introduced—namely, February last—until March, 1963, which is a period of four years. I submit that the analogy is quite invalid, for the present circumstances are quite different. In 1955 the pre-war valuation lists were still in force, and even then the general level of values was below 1939 rents. Accordingly, continuing delay in making new valuation lists caused some local authorities to carry out partial revaluations of their areas, in particular of non-residential property. This had the effect of considerably upsetting the incidence of the rate burden between one class of hereditament and another, particularly in view of the high rate poundages which were then being levied.
But the dangers of 1955 do not now exist, since dwelling-house assessments are frozen at their 1939 values and all other hereditaments were recently revalued for the first new lists under the 1948 Act. Therefore, I submit that the 1955 precedent is not a valid one. It is a pretty tenuous excuse for taking away a right which is of the very essence of the rating and valuation system of this country. On the Committee stage there was general opposition to this clause from the members of all Parties in another place, supported by the opposition of the local authority organisations. Amendments were moved on the Committee stage in another place and the Government survived with a fugitive majority of no bigger than 22 or 23.
In the course of the debate in another place the Minister abandoned the 1955 precedent argument and fell hack on what I feel I must describe as another excuse—it certainly was not a justification. It is novel, it is engaging and of course it was intended to be diverting; but it is no more real than the precedent of 1955. It is that the valuation officers, who of course have now taken the place of the old assessment committees, have discovered—it seems to me rather late than early—that there is ambiguity as to whether fresh assessments can be made between the periods of general revaluation. It would be interesting to know when this was discovered and by whom. Of course the power has existed ever since 1925 to make third party proposals under an Act passed by a Tory Government. By and large, it was a useful and sensible Act. But

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if it be the case that there is this ambiguity, why has nothing been dope to remove it?
As I have already said, this power of correcting valuations during the quinquennium was an essential part of the reorganisation of the bases of assessment and valuation given effect to by the Act of 1925. I remember being a member of one of the early assessment committees appointed by the Middlesex County Council after the passing of the 1925 Act. If that be not the case, it means that valuations once made are frozen unalterable for a period of five years. I repeat, why has nothing been done to remove this doubt? Since 1951, five Acts of Parliament and one Order have been made relating to valuation assessment and rating, all by the present Government or its predecessor. That does not include the present Bill. If, in fact, there is a defect in law, it should be remedied at once, and the Government should not, as it were, skate around it, as it does in this Bill, by suspending the power until March, 1963, for this power goes to the very roots of the valuation system and the local authorities are most concerned about the results of its withdrawal.
The Minister said in another place on the Second Reading that this ambiguity was of limited importance until after the war. Apparently, then, it was known to exist before the war. It was of limited importance, so the Minister said, because rents did not move very substantially before the war. But rents, especially of commercial and industrial hereditaments, have increased markedly since the war, as we all know. This gathering increase in rent started as far back as 1946, and by 1955 it was in full flow, if not in full flood. Why was nothing done to correct this alleged doubt or ambiguity? The only thing which was done was to suspend the power for eight months between July, 1955, and March, 1956. Moreover, since the valuation of 1956, which of course was actually made in 1955, three years have clapsed, and valuation officers, local authorities and ratepayers generally have been acting upon this power to make third party proposals, unaware that there was any doubt about the legality of so doing; and suddenly, without any notice whatsoever, ratepayers and local authori
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ties are informed that from February 12 of this year this power, which they have enjoyed since 1925, is to be withdrawn.
I should like to ask the noble Earl whether, in his reply, he will be good enough to state whether this subsection is to be construed as an admission by the right honourable gentleman the Minister that he accepts the proposition that this power to raise fresh assessments is really doubtful. I know that in the course of his speech on the Committee stage in another place he said that the matter was difficult. No doubt it is. Most elements of rating and valuation are difficult. But that is no reason why Her Majesty's Government, if they are aware of a legal defect, should not take steps to clarify the situation and legalise what is being done; because valuation officers, presumably, are acting on the assumption that what they do is lawful. If this reading of the law is correct, I suggest that it strikes at the very roots of the valuation system. It transcends, although it includes, the withdrawal of the third party proposal to which I have referred.
In this important connection I should like to read what was said by the right honourable gentleman the Minister on April 16, on the Committee stage of this Bill in another place. He said first [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 603 (No. 94), col. 1165]:
"There is a concealed ambiguity in the present power to make fresh assessments during the period between general revaluations."
Then he went on:
"The ambiguity is in deciding the level of values at which new or revised assessments should be made. I will give an example, not unlike an example quoted earlier. It is that of a shop correctly valued in the present list, drawn up in 1955 and put into operation in 1956, at £100, by reference to the rental values then current. Let us suppose an identical shop now being built and coming into rating later in 1959 or 1960 and that shop rents in the area rise by, say, 20 per cent. from the date of the last valuation. Should the new shop be assessed at £100 because it is identical with the one correctly assessed at £100 or should it be assessed at £120 on the ground that rental values have risen by 20 per cent. since the last revaluation?"
The Minister went on to say:
"Frankly, the law gives us no clear guidance on that issue. In all likelihood an assessment of £120 could be sustained under the law but it would create anomalies and indefensible inequity between the two shopkeepers concerned. What is the valuation officer to

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do? Is he to increase the first assessment to £120 as well? If so, he will remove the inequity between those two shopkeepers but create inequity among many other people. There would be unfairness between those two shopkeepers and all the other shopkeepers in the area. Is he to re-value all the shops in the area? If so, all the shops in that area will be valued on one basis, whereas all the rest of the property will be valued on another basis."
The Minister poses the question: "What is the valuation officer to do?" The valuation officer, of course, is expected reasonably to assess the new hereditament by reference to rental levels which are current. If the rent has gone up because the value of similar premises in the district has gone up since the level of 1955, then, the rent having gone up, the assessment for rates should go up. Why should there be one value for rating and another for rent, especially as rent is the prime element in the basis of assessment of all rateable property? If this is unfairness then it is equally unfair for a landlord to charge a higher rent for similar premises in the same district performing the same function; and there have, of course, been thousands of cases of this kind, especially where leases have fallen in and the landlord has been able to put up the rent. But where the lease of a similar property has not yet expired the landlord has not been able to put up the rent.
We thus have the situation that two similar properties are rented at two different rents. The valuation officer should take account of that—or are we to assume and accept the proposition that disparity of rent is all right but disparity of valuation for rates is all wrong? After all, the one is based on the other. And when the right honourable gentleman the Minister poses the question: "What is the valuation officer to do?" one is entitled to answer, "He should do what the local assessment committee did before 1948—deal with the situation." That is, lodge third-party proposals and relate the rating and assessment of the properties by reference to the rents which they are commanding. After all, that is what the local assessment committees have done. One is also entitled to inquire, in relation to this question, what the valuation officer has been doing: what has he been doing since the last valuation? This situation has existed for three years, and we know—indeed the Minister expressed some concern about it—that for quite
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proper reasons a number of third-party proposals have been lodged in certain places by local authorities and by ratepayers in connection with the assessment valuation operative from 1956. If the valuation officer feels aggrieved or if the local authority or a private ratepayer feel aggrieved, they have a right to go to the local valuation court. If they are not satisfied with the decision there, they have the right to go to the Lands Tribunal. Under the proposals of this Bill, those two rights, with the right of lodging a third-party proposal, will go. This is no new problem which was propounded by the Minister in another place on April 16. It has existed ever since 1925, and up to 1951 it was dealt with by the assessment committees.
Then we inevitably and inescapably reach this position. If, in fact, the Minister is right with regard to the legal doubt as to new assessments between two general revaluations, what is the position of the ratepayer whose assessment has been altered as the result of a fresh assessment made between general revaluations? Is it the case that those new assessments are null and void? In any case, it seems to me to be very inequitable that a local authority or a private ratepayer who was fortunate enough to lodge a third-party proposal prior to February 12 of this year should be able to have a new revaluation of a property, whereas a ratepayer or a local authority after that date is precluded until March 31, 1963, from so doing. It seems to me to be quite unfair that the arbitrary line should be drawn at February 12 without any prior notice to ratepayers that this old-established power was to be taken away.
I should like the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, to say what is the situation of a ratepayer whose property has been re-assessed since it was valued in 1956. If the reassessment is void, illegal, has he not the right pro tanto to a return of the extra rates he has paid as a result of that new, fresh assessment? I notice that the Minister, answering the question. "What is the valuation officer to do?" said this [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 603 (No. 94), col. 1166]:
"What is the right way of handling this? The commonsense solution is to disregard changes in rental levels since 1956 …".
That implies an acceptance of this doctrine that there is no power when

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assessing new or altered properties for the purpose of the existing list to take into account current rent levels. He went on to say:
"To be logical, if one does that, one has to hold back from any revision of values before the next revaluation …".
There again it seems to me to be in plain terms an acceptance of this proposition to the intent that the revision should not take up any part of any increase in rental values since the last valuation. He continued:
"In general terms, that is the practice of valuation officers."
So the valuation officers have accepted the proposition that it is not legal to have fresh assessments during the period between general revaluations. The Minister went on to say:
"When making a valuation, they ignore an increase in rental values since the last valuation."
If that is so, it seems to me that the valuation officers have acted quite contrary to all accepted practice and procedure and tradition and understanding of the situation, and to the rights of the local authorities and ratepayers to lodge third party proposals.
It seems to me not unreasonable to suggest that, faced with this problem, the Minister, rather than face up to a solution of the difficulty, taking legal steps to remove doubt and to validify action which had been taken under this ambiguous legal power, has preferred to tinker with it by suspending the power until March, 1963.
I want to ask the noble Earl to address his attention very seriously to this situation, which is of much greater importance than the suspension of this power for the next four years. As I have said, it is of the essence of the valuation system; and there arises in one's mind a haunting doubt as to whether the Government will not seek to resolve this problem by permanently withdrawing the right to lodge third party proposals. In the Bill, of course, the withdrawal is up to March 3l, 1963. But if this power to make fresh assessment does not exist, then the whole procedure of third party proposals is nugatory and it is unimportant whether the power is, as it were, reconferred after March 31, 1963, or not—that is, if it is illegal to make, as the Minister has suggested, fresh assessments within the
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period of general valuations. It is for those reasons that we on this side of the Committee regard this proposal in the Bill as being of very great importance. It is one which strikes at the very essence of the rating and valuation system of this country, which has been in operation for a great many years. We hope that the Government will accept the Amendment, but if they find themselves unable so to do we shall feel bound to test the feeling of the House.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 16, leave out subsection (3).—(Lord Latham.)
4.29 p.m.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORT FOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): On the Second Reading of the Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Latham, was good enough to give notice that he would raise this question on Committee stage in the form of the Amendment which has now been tabled and which is now before the Committee. I think that the natural concern which is felt by local authorities about this subsection in the Bill arises, perhaps inevitably, out of the main purpose of the Bill, which we all agree is a regrettable purpose, to postpone the next quinquennial valuation from April, 1961, to April, 1963, so that the interval of time between the last valuation period and the next one will be seven years instead of five.
The decision to legislate to this effect has been taken very reluctantly by the Government on the advice, which they felt bound to accept, of the Valuation Office—namely, that for 1961 there would not be enough genuine examples of free market rents of dwelling-houses to enable a new valuation to be made which would inspire public confidence, whereas two years later, they estimate, there will be a sufficient number of such cases to have a proper valuation which will carry the confidence of the people with it. That means that it is essential to extend the period during which rateable subjects are rated on the values prevailing at the last quinquennial date—that is, 1956. Now we certainly do not want to remove the powers which were given to third parties in 1925 to make proposals for remedying individual anomalies or cases of injustice as between one rateable subject and another—which can be done, of course, at the instance either of another property owner or of the local authority itself as

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an owner of rateable property. The trouble is that this power can be used not only to correct anomalies and to correct mistakes in the valuation list but also to alter the whole rateable valuation under the control of the authority.
May say one word about ambiguity, to which the noble Lord, Lord Latham, referred? He quoted what my right honourable friend the Minister had said in another place, during which passage my right honourable friend several times, I think, used the word "ambiguity". But I think that possibly the word "ambiguity" in this connection may itself be ambiguous. What my right honourable friend meant, was that this power given in 1925 to make proposals for the revision of individual assessments was intended by Parliament to correct individual anomalies; it was not intended to be used to raise the entire rateable value of the whole borough or the whole county, or whatever it might be. I am afraid that there is no ambiguity at all about the law, so far as that goes.
There is no doubt whatever that, under the powers given in 1925, a third party can make a proposal that the rateable value of a subject should be raised to the figure which it would fetch at that time in a free market; and the ratepayer has no legal redress on the ground that there is some legal doubt about the power to do that. There is no ambiguity in that sense at all; and I think that perhaps "ambiguity" is not the right word. It is simply that when this power was given in 1925 it was never contemplated that it would be used in order to bring about a general increase in the assessments within a rateable area. It was contemplated only that it would be used to correct individual anomalies, and nobody thought that it would ever he used for anything else. Unfortunately, it has been, and there is no legal redress. Very shortly before the last quinquennial valuation one local authority used this power to raise as many of the assessments in its area as could be raised. There were no fewer than 11,500 proposals put forward, and they all had to be accepted because they were perfectly valid under the law: there was no ambiguity about them. Another authority brought forward about 1.400 proposals; and there were others. It was only a very small minority, of course, of the local authorities in the country, but it was still enough to make
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it desirable to prevent it from being done during the present interval between the two quinquennial valuations.
The object of this temporary suspension—and it is meant to be only a temporary suspension—of the third party right to move for alteration of the valuation list is quite simple: it is to prevent anyone from undertaking a local revaluation for rating purposes before the next new lists come into force: there is no other motive behind it. Your Lordships will agree that the reasons which make it impossible to undertake a general revaluation having effect before 1963 would also make it impossible for any local revaluation to be more than partial; and Her Majesty's Government, and also, I think, probably most local authorities, would consider it unfair if particular ratepayers or groups of ratepayers were reassessed at full current rental values—whether they be the rental values current in 1959 or, say, 1962 or 1963—while all other ratepayers escaped reassessment and continued to be rated at either 1939 or 1955 rental values. The noble Lord quoted an example of two different shopkeepers, both having shops which were worth exactly the same, and said that one could be reassessed at £120 while the other had to be assessed at £100. Supposing that the shop which had been assessed at £100 was brought up to £120, so as to correct the anomaly between those two shops, there would still be an anomaly between those two shops and other shops. Then, if all the shops were brought up to the higher level, there would still be an anomaly between shops and houses, and so on; and we think it unfair that local authorities should be allowed to do this before general reassessment becomes possible in 1963.
We do not want permanently to remove this power: and I think I explained to your Lordships on the Second Reading debate that, although there has already been a period of three years during which the new lists have been in the hands of local authorities (which will probably have been enough time for most of them to correct any mistakes), we have nevertheless taken steps to strengthen the existing co-operation between rating authorities and valuation officers. We have instructed valuation officers to give full weight to any representations made by local authorities, even to the extent of making proposals which would enable local authori

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ties to have the issue determined on appeal. The valuation officer would, of course, have to be satisfied that there was a reasonable case for the local authority's views before going to that length but; in any case, when a local authority considered that a valuation officer had unreasonably refused to take action at their instance, they would, as always, be able to pursue the matter within the Valuation Office and, if they thought fit, through their association and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Of course, the criterion of the valuation officer and of the Treasury in this matter would be that any changes which were proposed should be at what is called the 1956 "tone"—that is, in accordance wtih the general level of values prevailing in 1956—and this procedure should not he used in order to assess certain individual properties, or certain types or classes of property, at a higher valuation than that at which they would have been valued in the year 1956.
Finally, the problem of solving—I do not like the word "ambiguity", because I do not think it is quite right, but the discrepancy between the existence of the powers and the actual use of them which has been made by one or two authorities, is a very difficult one. It is now to be considered by a Working Party, which will be asked to undertake a general review of the whole field of rating and valuation. It will be a Working Party of local government and departmental representatives, who can take outside advice as necessary, and who will be asked to recommend a proper basis for changes of assessment between general revaluations, which normally take place every five years. The reason why the problem is particularly difficult at the moment is that under this Bill we are changing the normal period from five to seven years; and that makes it even more necessary that we should be careful that the powers given in 1925 should not be used for what we believe to be a wrong purpose. I am sorry, therefore, that we cannot accept the Amendment. As I have tried to explain, however, we will do everything possible, first to meet the legitimate views of local authorities with regard to any changes that may be necessary, and, next, to take steps through this Working Party as soon as possible
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to work out a permanent solution of this difficult problem which has arisen.
4.42 p.m.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: I follow the arguments which the noble Earl has put before the Committee. Essentially, I think it is quite simple. It is that the ratepayers ought to be all in the same relative position. Some should not be valued according to the level of values prevailing, let us say, in 1959, and others valued on the level of valuation prevailing in 1955. But what is contained in the Bill does not achieve that. What it does is to prevent local authorities from making proposals for alteration of valuations. It does not (and this is expressly stated) prevent a valuation officer from making such a proposal, nor does it prevent the owner or occupier of the property from making such a proposal.
If this is going to be applied, why should it not be applied all round? If the solution of the problem is extremely simple, why should it not have been included in the Bill, instead of there being the appointment of a committee to discuss something which is not really very difficult? The whole object would be secured if it were provided that alterations in valuations made between the quinquennial valuations should be based upon the level of values prevailing at the time when the last quinquennial valuation was made. If that were written into a Statute dealing with local rating, the problem would be solved for ever. There would be no need for this temporary suspension of the power of local rating authorities coupled, as I have said just low, with power for the valuation officer to do exactly the thing which is objected to.
LORD SILKIN: Are not the Government using a sledge hammer to crack a nut? Let us admit that there is an evil which they want to prevent. What is the evil? One or two local authorities, is the noble Earl himself said, have gone beyond the policy of the Government and have sought to effect wholesale changes in valuation, and they might do this again. In order to prevent this, the government are preventing all local authorities from coming forward and asking to remedy individual anomalies. That is going much too far. As my noble friend Lord Douglas of Barloch has just said, would it not have been possible to

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prevent that evil, even if it was a major evil, which it is not, without going to the other extreme of preventing all applications for revaluation? It may be that the suggestion of my noble friend would not be absolutely effective, but there should be no difficulty in finding a form of words which would enable a local authority to apply for the removal of an individual anomaly and not enable them to make wholesale applications. I think that this is a matter which the Government ought to reconsider.
The argument is not based upon Party views. I think that I am right in saying, without the book, that originally in another place an Amendment to secure what we have in mind was moved by a supporter of the Government and that in the actual voting it had the support of a good many members on the other side. So that there is nothing political about this. It seems to me to be plain common sense, and I hope that it may be possible for this point to be reconsidered and see whether something acceptable to all sides cannot be provided in the Bill.
LORD LATHAM: Perhaps it is fair that I should make one or two comments on the statements made by the noble Earl that this power has been—I will not say "abused", but excessively used by certain local authorities. That was stated in another place during the Committee stage. Liverpool was cited. In a judgment in connection with the appointment by Liverpool Corporation of a valuer to carry out revaluation within the period of general revaluations, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goddard, said that the Liverpool Corporation had a duty to make proposals to correct any equality or under-assessment of which they knew. The facts are that before valuation was passed over to the valuation officers through the Valuation Office, the local assessment committee had completed a revaluation of a fairly large section of the centre of the city of Liverpool, and they took the view—and I think that they were right—that they could not have half the centre of the city valued on one basis and the other half valued on an entirely different basis. Therefore they lodged a large number of proposals in order to correct these anomalies.
The other case mentioned was that of Hertfordshire, which has been the recipient of a large number of people from
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other parts of Greater London. It has been the recipient of "overspill" running into some tens of thousands of persons, in new towns, in expanded towns, and in housing estates. Because of the increased demand flowing from that increase of population—and, after all, it is the needs of the population which determine and in the end make rateable value—the value of shops, the rents of shops and of commercial buildings, have increased considerably. The Hertfordshire County Council took the view that it was proper to relate the valuation of a large number of properties to the increased rent level flowing from the influx of this additional population. And that was perfectly just. Anyone who has been concerned with local government knows that when a new population comes into an area it does not pay for itself for a long time. For instance, schools have to be provided.
I remember that when the London County Council built the Watling Estate at Hendon—I was not on the Council then, but I was living in Hendon and taking a fairly active part in municipal affairs—the Hendon Borough Council had to build five new schools, and the Education rate of the Hendon Borough Council was doubled on that account alone. The rateable value of small property of that kind does not pay for itself. It is only the ancillary activities, such as new hops and all the other and similar activities which the increased population calls into being and into function. which lead to new buildings and, therefore, new assessments, or lead to rises in the rental value and therefore the rateable value of the premises. After some ten, fifteen or, maybe, twenty years a new estate may, in terms of rate, be paying for itself. And if that is the case, you can count yourself lucky.
So the Hentfordshire County Council have had to build schools and roads, and provide for lighting of roads, cleansing, sewers, libraries and all the other municipal facilities. Is it unfair that, since rateable properties benefit from this influx of population, they should be asked to pay something towards it by way of appropriate valuation levels which take account of those circumstances and those facts? I do not believe (that the average local authority have abused this power which they have, or that they will abuse it in the next four years. I do not believe, therefore, that it is necessary to take the

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power away from them. Perhaps I may quote from a letter written by the Town Clerk of Norwich—and I do it with some satisfaction, because Norwich is my native city. The Town Clerk, writing to the Tory Member for one of the Divisions of Norwich, said:
"Whilst my committee appreciate that the Minister has introduced this clause in order to prevent a rating authority securing a partial revaluation of properties within its area, they feel that the clause should be redrafted in such a way that where on merit there is justification for the rateable value of an individual hereditament being altered the rating authority should be entitled to submit a proposal."
That is the spirit in which the local authorities and their associations approach this matter, and it is a spirit which I do not think has been reciprocated.
Finally, I would make one comment on the suggestion that because the valuation officers will be told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer or his Department that they are, if you please, to be reasonable to local authorities in this matter, the local authorities ought to be satisfied. First of all, the valuation officer must carry out his duties according to law, and I should have thought that it was not a desirable method of administration or of government that a Minister or a ministerial Department should interfere with a local authority, whether to help it or not, in connection with a particular third party proposal in respect of a particular hereditament. You really cannot expect local authorities to be satisfied with this kind of grace and favour proposal. And then, if the valuation officer is not amenable—and he is not required to be amenable—the local authority through their own association can make a complaint to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and it is hoped that the difficulty will be overcome. Really, that is not self-respecting administration or self-respecting government. It is undignified.
Moreover, I submit it is not legal. Pressure ought not to be brought upon the valuation officer. The local authority should have the right, as they now have, if they disagree with the valuation officer, of going frankly, openly and without any back-stairs method through the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or otherwise, to the valuation court; and then, if they are not satisfied with the decision, on to the Lands Tribunal. Happily, that is the proper and accepted way of administration in this country. For those reasons,
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I think the local authorities are quite right not to be satisfied with the proposal. I am sorry the noble Earl finds himself and the Government unable to accept the Amendment, which I think we must press to a Division.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The noble Lord, Lord Latham, has correctly described the circumstances which surrounded the Liverpool revaluation which he mentioned. I do not think those circumstances applied to Sheffield, Banbury, Solihull or other local authorities which used this 1925 power in a similar manner. But the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, suggested that it was really a simple problem. He asked why we were using a sledgehammer to crush such a small nut. I suggest to your Lordships that it is a pretty hard nut, and a good deal harder than the noble Lord suggested.
As I think I explained to your Lordships on Second Reading, the Government have held long discussions with representatives of the local authority associations in an attempt to find a simple amendment which would save these error-correcting powers. Unhappily, no solution has presented itself. We found that the problem needs long and careful review, and probably much re-writing of present statutory provisions. I think that perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Latham, indicated one or two of the difficulties in what he said about the results of new schools being built, and new industries or overspill populations moving into an area which may produce rapid changes within the quinquennial period.
I do not, I am afraid, agree with the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, in the suggestion that this power of local authorities to make proposals should be on quite the same footing as the power of the occupiers themselves or of the valuation officer. After all, an occupier has always had the right to represent that he is being over-assessed. He is the man who pays the rates, and he must have that right; and it is the duty of the valuation officer to try to see that he is correctly assessed. But this power given to the local authorities in 1925 was not given to them as local authorities, but as third parties. The idea was that any owner of property who thought that his neighbour was assessed too low in comparison with himself should have a right of remedy by asking that his neighbour should be assessed more highly. Since

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the local authorities are, of course, owners of property, they have that right as owners of property and not as local authorities. I do not think there is anything particularly sacrosanct about it, but we want to preserve it.
LORD LATHAM: It is the case that the local authorities have it as third party. They need not necessarily be owners of the property.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: Yes, they have it as owners of property. They are always owners of property in the district. It is not part of their governmental powers, but part of their rights as an owner of property. It is not quite on the same footing as the right of the owner himself.
As I have tried to explain, we have not found this matter as simple as the noble Lord has suggested; and that is
Resolved in the negative and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 [Postponement of termination or reduction of relief for charitable and other organisations]:
On Question, Whether Clause 2 shall be agreed to?
the reason why, we having failed to get the simple Amendment we tried to get in agreement with the local authority associations, a Working Party has now been asked to work out a solution which will deal, we hope, with all the very difficult problems to which the noble Lord, Lord Latham, referred in the course of his remarks.
I am grateful to noble Lords opposite for having enabled us to have such an exhaustive and comprehensive review of this difficult problem. I think it is a good thing that it should be done. It has been exhaustively discussed, and I hope your Lordships will now be willing to come to a decision.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 22; Not-Contents, 61.

CONTENTS

Amwell, L.

Latham, L.

Pethick-Lawrence, L.

Chorley, L.

Lawson, L.

Shackleton, L.

Crook, L.

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Silkin, L.

Douglas of Barloch, L.

Macdonald of Gwaenysgor, L.

Stansgate, V.

Faringdon, L. [Teller.]

Morris of Kenwood, L.

Stonham, L.

Granville-West, L.

Ogmore, L.

Taylor, L.

Greenhill, L.

Pakenham, L.

Williams, L.

Henderson, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

Merrivale, L.

Ailwyn, L.

Fortescue, E.

Meston, L.

Albemarle, E.

Gisborough, L.

Milne, L.

Allerton, L.

Goschen, V.

Milverton, L.

Amulree, L.

Gosford, E.

Onslow, E. [Teller.]

Atholl, D.

Grantchester, L.

Perth, E.

Baden-Powell, L.

Grenfell, L.

Rea, L.

Bathurst, E.

Hampton, L.

Rockley, L.

Birdwood, L.

Hereford, V.

St. Aldwyn, E. [Teller.]

Bridgeman, V.

Home, E.

Saltoun, L.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Selkirk, E.

Clitheroe, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Sinha, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Jeffreys, L.

Strang, L.

Conesford, L.

Jessel, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Denham, L.

Kilmuir, V. (L. Chancellor.)

Stratheden and Campbell, L.

Dundee, E.

Lambert, V.

Swansea, L.

Dynevor, L.

Lansdowne, M.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Ebbisham, L.

Lothian, M.

Waldegrave, L.

Elliot of Harwood, Baroness

Lyle of Westbourne, L.

Waleran, L.

Erskine, L.

Mansfield, E.

Wolverton, L.

Ferrier, L.

LORD SILKIN: I should like to say a word about Clause 2, which deals with the position of charitable organisations. The noble Earl will know that under Section 8 of the Rating and Valuation (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1955, certain advantages were conferred upon charitable organisations. Particularly they were given the benefit of not having

319
their rates increased beyond what they were before the passing of the Act, and in subsequent years they were also given the advantage of having a reduction in their rates, corresponding to the reduction in the first year. I do not want to elaborate on that matter, but it is the case that the 1955 Act did confer advantages such as I have outlined on charitable organisations. This Bill seeks to continue that, but it makes no provision—indeed, the 1955 Act made no provision—for new charities; and the result of that is that charities which are created after 1955 do not get the same advantages.
I am sure that it would be unfair to ask the noble Earl to give me a reply "off the cuff", but I should be grateful if he would consider the possibility of ensuring that new charities are treated in a similar way to those charities that were existing at the time of the passing of the 1955 Act. It would mean that a charity which was created, say, to-day, would, as from the date of its creation, get the advantage by relation to the value of the property in 1955 as if it had been in existence at the time of the passing of the Act, but with the advantage deferred until the creation of the charitable trust. This point has been put to me by a number of charities. It is unfortunate that it was never put forward in another place, and, indeed, was raised too late to put down some sort of Amendment to this Bill. It is for that reason that I am taking the opportunity of raising it to-day on Clause 2. If the noble Earl does not feel disposed to give me an immediate reply—and I doubt whether he will—I should be grateful if he would have the matter looked into before the next stage.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising this point. Of course, the object of Section 8 of the 1955 Act with regard to existing charities was to meet the fear which had been expressed by many of those institutions that they would suddenly suffer all at once a tremendous increase of rates over and above what they had been accustomed to pay. Obviously that would not apply to new charities, but I will gladly consider the point.
LORD SILKIN: I would say that the noble Earl is quite right, and I am glad that he has got my point. But it is only part of my case, because, in addition, if
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he would look again at Section 8 he will find that it also confers specific benefits in subsequent years. Charities have a two-sided benefit; on the one hand, they have a guarantee that their rates will not be exceeded, and secondly they have a guarantee that in successive years their rates will be actually reduced by a certain proportion. It is the second benefit that I am asking should be examined.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: The noble Lord may be aware that a departmental committee is considering the question now, but I do not know whether it has considered the position of new charities in particular. However, I shall be glad to look into the matter and let the noble Lord know what the position is.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Remaining clauses and Schedule agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported without amendment.

SMALL LOTTERIES AND GAMING ACT, 1956 (AMENDMENT) BILL
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of May 7) Bill read 3a and passed.

RESTRICTION OF OFFENSIVE WEAPONS BILL [H.L.]
5.20 p.m.
House in Committee (according to Order).
[The EARL OF BUCKINGHAMSHIRE in the Chair.]
On Question, Whether the Bill shall be reported without amendment?
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: Before this Bill is reported, there is one point which I should like to raise which I mentioned on Second Reading and about which I hope the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Kenwood, will be able to give me an assurance—namely, that adequate, but not too severe, penalties can be inflicted upon those who bring into this country weapons known as flick knives and so on. While the penalties in Clause 1 (2) would

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appear to be entirely adequate for those who manufacture, sell, hire, or offer for sale or hire, lend or give, in the terms of subsection (2) the importation of any such knife is described as prohibited. It does not say that the penalties in the first subsection will apply in this particular case. The noble Lord, Lord Morris of Kenwood, was good enough to show me an extract from the Customs and Excise Act which includes the penalties that would apply to this clause. It seemed to me that there was rather a gap between an over-lenient penalty—
LORD MORRIS OF KENWOOD: May I just correct the noble Earl? What I showed him was, in fact, a copy of Hansard dealing with the Committee stage in another place—not a copy of the Customs and Excise Act.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: It would appear that the alternatives to anybody who imported a prohibited article into this country were either that the article should he confiscated and a fine of not more than three times its value imposed, or that a sentence of up to three months imprisonment could he imposed. If any one brought in a number of such flick knives or similar weapons, obviously for the purpose of sale or distribution, then I think that he or she should suffer imprisonment, without more ado. But should someone be found to have just one or two in his possession, it would appear that either he must be imprisoned, which would seem to be an inordinately severe penalty, or else he must pay only three times the value of a weapon which, mass produced on the Continent, might not be more than a few shillings, and the penalty therefore might be only a pound or two. I should like to have the reassurance of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill that there is, in fact, some penalty more adequate to the offence of bringing in one or two knives. At the moment, it does not seem to me that it is covered. It has been suggested that it would he, because the person could be charged with carrying an offensive weapon. If it were found in his suit case, if I know the legal profession, they would, when presenting their defence, soon get round that being called the carrying of a weapon. It is a small point but one which I think is sufficiently important to be raised in order to ensure that there is
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a penalty which is at once adequate, with not too low a fine, and at the same time, not as severe as imprisonment
LORD MORRIS OF KENWOOD: I should like to thank the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, for having given prior notice of this point. As I informed the noble Earl, the offender is liable under the Customs and Excise Act if be imports a weapon. I should like, if I may, to correct what I believe is a mistake in Hansard on the Committee stage of the Bill in another place and Ito quote the present law as set out in the Customs and Excise Act, 1952, on this point. Section 45 (1) says:
"If any person unships or lands in any port ….
(b) any goods imported, landed or unloaded contrary to any prohibition or restriction for the time being in force under or by virtue of any enactment with respect to those goods,"—
he shall be liable to a penalty.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: I regret to have to interrupt the noble Lord in his reply, but I am afraid that Standing Orders do not allow quotation from Hansard of another place in this Session. Perhaps the noble Lord could explain the situation without quoting.
LORD MORRIS OF KENWOOD: The answer to the question is that under this Act an offender is liable to a fine of three times the value of the article, or a fine of £100, whichever is the greater, and not whichever is the less. At the same time, he is liable to imprisonment, or to both imprisonment and a fine. As the noble Earl has pointed out, he is liable under the terms of this Bill to prosecution under the Prevention of Crimes Act, 1953, if he is found in possession of such an article. He is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or a fine not exceeding £50, or both. I think that that is the answer to the noble Earl's point.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reassurance, which I find entirely satisfactory.
Bill reported without amendment.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of May 7), Bill read 3a, and passed.

POLICE FEDERATION BILL
5.27 p.m.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of May 7), Bill read 3a, and passed.

HOUSING (UNDERGROUND ROOMS) BILL
5.28 p.m.
Read 3a (according to Order) and passed.

MOCK AUCTIONS BILL [H.L.]
5.29 p.m.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF BUCKINGHAMSHIRE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Prohibition of certain practices at sales purporting to be sales by auction]:
LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM moved to leave out Clause 1, and to insert the following new clause:
Penalties for promoting or conducting mock auctions
".—(1) It shall be an offence to promote or conduct, or to assist in the conduct of, a mock auction at which one or more lots to which this Act applies are offered for sale.
(2) Any person guilty of an offence under this Act shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds, or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, or to both such a fine and such imprisonment.
(3) Subject to the following provisions of this section, for the purposes of this Act a sale of goods by way of competitive bidding shall be taken to be a mock auction if, but only if, during the course of the sale—

(a) any lot to which this Act applies is sold to a person bidding for it, and either it is sold to him at a price lower than the amount of his highest hid for that lot, or part of the price at which it is sold to him is repaid or credited to him or is stated to be so repaid or credited, or

(b) the right to bid for any lot to which this Act applies is restricted, or is stated to
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be restricted, to persons who have bought or agreed to buy one or more articles, or

(c) any articles are given away or offered as gifts.

(4) A sale of goods shall not be taken to be a mock auction by virtue of paragraph (a) of the last preceding subsection, if it is proved that the reduction in price, or the repayment or credit, as the case may be,—

(a) was on account of a defect discovered after the highest bid in question had been made, being a defect of which the person conducting the sale was unaware when that bid was made, or

(b) was on account of damage sustained after that bid was made."

The noble Lord said: This Amendment is a complete re-drafting of the original Clause 1 of the Bill. Under the existing clause it was an offence to do a number of things which, on the face of them, are harmless. To the uninitiated, to return part of the price paid for a lot or make gifts to members of the audience appear to be harmless faults, or even commendable in an auctioneer. The charge, on prosecution, under the Bill as it stands would read, for example,
"that while conducting a sale at which an assembly of persons were invited to acquire prescribed articles by competitive bidding he accepted from the highest bidder less than the amount of his highest bid."
It might seem to the court that that was a mere technicality and they might not feel able to impose more than a nominal penalty for it. The new clause directly defines the offence as being to promote or conduct a mock auction, and then goes on to explain what a mock auction is. The charge under this Amendment would read that the person charged:
"promoted or conducted or assisted in the conduct of a mock auction."
Subsection (1) of the new clause defines the offence. It now includes promoting a mock auction, as well as conducting or assisting in its conduct, so as to ensure that the proprietor commits an offence even though he does not personally take part in the sale. Subsection (2) lays down the penalties under this Bill. The penalties are the same as in the original clause. Subsection (3) defines a mock auction. Subsection (3) (a) is the equivalent to the existing subsection (1) (a) in the present clause. It has been extended to include the return of money already paid by the bidder to the auctioneer, as well as the auctioneer's accepting less money in the first place, Subsection (3) (b) has the same effect as subsection (1) (c) in

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the original clause, forbidding the auctioneer to restrict the right to bid for any lot to persons who have bought or agreed to buy one or more articles. Subsection (3) (c) is exactly the same as subsection (1) (c) in the original Bill.
Going back for a moment to Clause 1 of the original Bill, your Lordships will notice that subsection (1) (b), which prohibits a person who conducts or assists in conducting a sale at which an assembly of persons, or any of them, are invited to acquire prescribed articles by competitive bidding, from selling any prescribed article otherwise than by competitive bidding, has been left out of the new clause. The reason for this is that in an Amendment which I shall move later competitive bidding has been defined to cover slightly more than is covered at the moment. In other words, it is defined to cover sales other than by raising prices as at a normal auction. It will also cover Dutch auctions and any other form of public sale where there is an element of competition. Because of this, it is no longer practicable to have in this subsection a distinction between selling by competitive bid and selling otherwise than by competitive bidding. Subsection (4) is the equivalent to the first part of subsection (2). It is a saving clause for the advantage of bona fide auctioneers and gives them the right—or, rather, does not take away from them the right—to return any money on account of a defect discovered after the highest bid, or on account of damage sustained after that hid was made.
I should like to say how grateful I am to Her Majesty's Government, to the Home Office and the Government draftsmen for the considerable help that I have been given in drafting this and other Amendments in my name. But I must add that, whilst any credit for the drafting is due to the Government draftsmen, the responsibility is entirely mine and cannot be attached to Her Majesty's Government. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 1, and insert the said new clause.—(Lord Denham.)
LORD CROOK: I rise for a moment only, because I spoke originally in favour of this Bill on Second Reading, to say that I support the Amendment which the noble Lord has been good enough to move on this occasion. I then ventured
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to suggest that Her Majesty's Government should offer some help to the noble Lord, and I am glad to learn from him that he has had that help, and that, with or without it, he has followed up his twelve months' work in preparing this Bill by making certain that those who took steps to evade what might have been the provisions of an Act of Parliament are dealt with before that Bill becomes an Act, by the astute way that it has now been redrafted; because the sting seems to come in the Amendment yet to be moved, where the words:
"sale of goods by way of competitive bidding"
are properly defined. I should like to congratulate the noble Lord and to commend this Amendment to those noble Lords who sit on this side of the House with me.
EARL BATHURST: As the noble Lord, Lord Denham, has mentioned the Government draftsmen, I should like, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Chesham, who is indisposed this afternoon, to thank the noble Lord, Lord Denham. There is no doubt that, as a result of the drafting of this Amendment by the Government draftsmen, it will be very much more difficult for the top men (who otherwise undoubtedly would have done so) to get round the results of his hard work. On the other hand, I must say that it is, of course, entirely up to your Lordships whether you consider this Amendment favourably or otherwise.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clause 3 [Interpretation]:
LORD DENHAM: The first part of this Amendment defines the words "competitive bidding". Up to now, mock auctions have always been based on the procedure at a genuine auction; that is to say, prospective purchasers have competed for the purchase of articles by way of increasing bids. After your Lordships gave a Second Reading to this Bill I chanced to go to Petticoat Lane one Sunday morning where I watched one of these mock auctioneers at work. This particular man had adopted a method which might have got round the original Bill. He held up an article and said, "Now, ladies and gentlemen, I am not going to auction this. I am going to sell it for £3 to the first lady or gentleman who puts up their

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hand." Sure enough, a fairly large number of people put up their hands, and he sold the article to whoever he considered was the first to do so.
A complete mock auction could be based on that procedure. That way of doing things could not be described as an auction, and there is some doubt whether, under the Bill as it stands, it could be defined as competitive bidding. But the words "competitive bidding" have now been defined so as to bring this method of selling under the cover of the Bill, and also to bring a Dutch auction, as well as a normal auction, or, I hope, any form of public sale which includes an element of competition, under the provisions of this Bill. The second part of this Amendment defines the words "lot to which this Act applies", which appear several times in the new Clause 1 as amended.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 27, after ("Act") insert ("sale of goods by way of competitive bidding' means any sale of goods at which the persons present, or some of them, are invited to buy articles by way of competitive bidding, and 'competitive bidding" includes any mode of sale whereby prospective purchasers may be enabled to compete for the purchase of articles, whether by way of increasing bids or by the offer of articles to be bid for at successively decreasing prices or otherwise.
() In this Act 'lot to which this Act applies' means a lot consisting of or including one or more prescribed articles; and").—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DENHAM: This Amendment leaves out the definition of the word "premises", because this word is no longer used in Clause 1, the word "place" being used in its stead.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, leave out line 28.—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DENHAM LORD DENHAM moved to add to Clause 3:
"() In this Act 'stated', in relation to a sale of goods by way of competitive bidding, means stated by or on behalf of the person conducting the sale, by an announcement made to the persons for the time being present at the sale.
() For the purposes of this Act any bid stated to have been made at a sale of goods by way of competitive bidding shall be conclusively presumed to have been made, and to have been a bid of the amount stated; and any reference in this Act to the sale of a lot to a person who has made a bid for it includes
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a reference to a purported sale thereof to a person stated to have bid for it, whether that person exists or not.
() For the purposes of this Act anything done in or about the place where a sale of goods by way of competitive bidding is held, if done in connection with the sale, shall be taken to be done during the course of the sale, whether it is done at the time when any articles are being sold or offered for sale by way of competitive bidding or before or after any such time.
() Subject to the provisions of section thirty-three of the Interpretation Act, 1889 (which relates to offences under two or more laws), nothing in this Act shall derogate from any right of action or other remedy (whether civil or criminal) in proceedings instituted otherwise than under this Act."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment is in four parts. The first part defines the word "stated", which appears several times in the amended Clause 1 and in the second subsection of this Amendment. The reason for this second subsection is that some of the bids stated to have been made at a mock auction are in fact non-existent bids from imaginary persons at the back of the crowd. Where a person present actually makes a bid, it is sometimes difficult to identify him after the sale so that he can be brought to give evidence. Under this paragraph it will be enough for the purposes of the prosecution for a policeman to give evidence that the top man or auctioneer stated that a bid was made.
The purpose of the third subsection is to bring in things done in connection with the sale by competitive bidding, whether done before or after the sale. For instance, distribution of gifts before the first lot is put up for sale by competitive bidding would not otherwise be covered. The fourth subsection is designed to remove any fear there may be that creation of a special offence relating to mock auctions might remove other civil or criminal proceedings connected with them.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 32, at end insert the said new subsections.—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4 [Short title and commencement.]
LORD DENHAM: This Amendment excludes Northern Ireland from the provisions of the Bill. The reason for this

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is that the Government of Northern Ireland themselves have power to promote legislation such as this, and in fact have already passed one Act dealing with mock auctions, the Auctions (Local Control) Act, although this particular Act is not in the same form as the Bill we have here. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 36, at end insert—
("() This Act shall not extend to Northern Ireland.")—(Lord Denham.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed.

SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (AMENDMENT) BILL
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of May 7), Bill read 3a and passed.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE ADMINIS TRATION (AMENDMENT) BILL
5.46 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD MESTON: My Lords, at the outset I want to make it clear that the Bill applies to the whole country and not only to the City of Birmingham. I say that advisedly because the constitutional position is that a Public Bill must apply to the whole country and not merely to one place. However, there is no good in skirmishing around the point. We all know of the rather unsatisfactory state of affairs which exists in Birmingham at the present time, and this Bill does in fact remedy that confusing state of affairs. How that has arisen requires a little explanation, and I hope that your Lordships will not be tired with this reiteration of sections and subsections of various Acts of Parliament.
Section 168 (1) of the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, provided that the Recorder of Birmingham might in his discretion order a second court of Quarter Sessions to be formed. Any such order required a resolution of the council,
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which resolution might continue in force for twelve months. I ask your Lordships to keep in mind that the resolution of the council was originally required. Some seventy-two years later there was passed a Private Act—namely, the Birmingham Corporation Act, 1954. Section 61 of that Private Act amended Section 168 of the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, in its application to the city of Birmingham so as to make the resolution of the council unnecessary, thus enabling the Recorder of his own motion to form a second court of Quarter Sessions whenever it appeared to him necessary to do so.
The next stage in the proceedings was when Section 15 of the Criminal Justice Administration Act, 1956, amended Section 168 of the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, so as to enable local authorities to authorise the formation of further courts of Quarter Sessions, being the second court permitted by the Act of 1882. Unfortunately, when Section 15 of the Criminal Justice Administration Act, 1956, was passed, the special provisions contained in Section 61 of the Binning-ham Corporation Act, 1954, were overlooked. The result is that the provisions of Section 15 of the Criminal Justice Administration Act, 1956, are of no avail to the city of Birmingham, which puts it beyond its powers to pass the necessary resolution.
Now this is the point: as a result of the confusing situation which arose because of all this legislation, not more than two courts of Quarter Sessions can sit simultaneously at Birmingham. Subsection (1) of Clause 1 of the present Bill proposes the addition of a new subsection —subsection (6)—to Section 15 of the Criminal Justice Administration Act, 1956, the effect of which is to preserve the right of the Recorder of Birmingham, and of any other borough which may obtain or have obtained legislation corresponding to the Birmingham Corporation Act, 1954, to form a second court of Quarter Sessions without the authority of a resolution of the council; and—and this is the important point—to enable a third court, and any further court that may be required, to be formed if the council pass a resolution to that effect.
Subsection (2) of Clause 1 of the Bill deals with the remuneration of the I Assistant Recorder. Here again, as a result of failing to repeal the relevant

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provisions of the Birmingham Corporation Act, 1954, the position in Birmingham is different from that elsewhere: and so the present Bill brings the whole matter into line by providing that in Birmingham, as elsewhere, the approval of the Lord Chancellor will be needed for fixing the remuneration of the Assistant Recorder.
As to the necessity for this Bill, as your Lordships know, Birmingham is a large city, with a population of over one million. I am not suggesting that it has a worse criminal record than any other city, but there is inevitably a certain amount of crime in Birmingham; and at the present moment the Recorder of Birmingham can appoint only one assistant court to help him during sessions. He cannot appoint more than one court. He may, in fact, want two or three courts to assist him, but he cannot do more than appoint one assistant. Now I understand that the result is that a number of prisoners who ought to be tried at a certain session are sometimes not tried at that session owing to lack of judicial time. If a prisoner is on bail, then of course he continues to be on bail; but if a person is in custody, he continues to remain in custody for a longer period than is either necessary or desirable. My Lords, that is a very unsatisfactory state of affairs, and what this Bill does is simply to enable the Recorder of Birmingham to appoint one, two, three, or as many courts as he likes, to assist him in his work. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Meston.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Meston, for producing this Bill and putting it before your Lordships. I have a certain responsibility, in that I introduced the Act of 1956 into this House, and I must admit that I did not remember that provision in the Birmingham Corporation Private Act. However, if I were to remember and carry in my mind the provisions of every Private Act of every corporation, I should be even more insufferable to your Lordships than I am at present. None the less, I am grateful to the noble Lord for promoting this Bill. It will be of the greatest value to the administration of
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justice that the city should be able to have the further courts it requires. I hope your Lordships will give the Bill a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

HOSPITAL OF ST. MARY MAGDALENE AND OTHER CHARITIES (NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE) CHARITY BILL
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
5.56 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, this is a Bill which deals with these two hospitals or almshouses and three other small charities named in the Bill, in the city of Newcastle-on-Tyne, which are at present administered by the City Corporation as trustees. The Hospital of St. Mary Magdalene was founded In the 12th century, and was richly endowed. It is now administered by a Private Act of Parliament which was passed in 1867, when the Corporation, as I have said, were made trustees. It accommodates sixteen freemen with their wives. The intention is that the building should be modernised and that the surplus money should go to the Hospital of the Holy Jesus, which was founded by the Corporation in the 17th century and, in 1934, was rebuilt on land belonging to the St. Mary Magdalene Hospital. This hospital has accommodation for the master, thirty-nine brethren and sisters, being freemen of the city, their wives and unmarried daughters. It is at present administered by a Private Act of Parliament of the year 1847. The other charities did own almshouses once upon a time, but they were abolished when the railway was laid down in Newcastle in 1848.
The object of the Bill at present before your Lordships is to make a new outlet for the increasing revenues of the Hospital of St. Mary Magdalene, to build new buildings, and to provide increased accommodation for the necessitous people in Newcastle-on-Tyne who are not necessarily freemen. Because two Private Acts of Parliament have to be upset, Parliamentary consent is required for the Bill. The Bill has been widely advertised and, so far as I know, no objection has been

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raised. My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(Lord Amulree.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

HOSPITAL OF ST. NICHOLAS (SALISBURY) CHARITY BILL
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, this charity was founded in the 13th century, and was then refounded by charter of King James I. The hospital provides accommodation for the master, chaplain, six needy, poor, old men, and six needy, poor, old women. At present it is administered by the Bishop of Salisbury, with the Archbishop of Canterbury himself giving assistance and advice. The object of the present Bill is to dissolve that particular corporation and to appoint five trustees—one of whom, the master, shall be appointed by the Bishop of Salisbury under Letters Patent—and at the same time to improve and modernise the buildings. Both the Bishop of Salisbury and the Archbishop of Canterbury approve of the changes made; and the reason that Parliament has to approve it is that it is making an alteration in the Letters Patent of King James I. The Bill has been widely advertised, and I understand there has been no objection. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Amulree.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

JESUS HOSPITAL (ROTHWELL) CHARITY BILL
6.0 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, this Bill deals with an almshouse built at Rothwell in the sixteenth century for poor, unmarried men, and the original five feofees were incorporated as governors, with ten associates who in turn became governors. The charity was administered under a charter given by Queen Elizabeth I. There
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has been considerable difficulty in finding people who can act as associates to take care of the charity, and it has also been difficult to find poor, unmarried men who can become suitable candidates. The object of the Bill is to replace the large body of fifteen by five governers, to allow married men to come in, with their wives if necessary, and to modernise the buildings. Parliamentary consent must be obtained because the charity is administered under charter. The project has been widely advertised and no objections have been received. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, that the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Amulree.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

POOR'S COAL CHARITY (WAVENDON) CHARITY BILL
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, in 1787, under the Wandon Enclosure Act (at that time the parish of Wavendon was called Wandon), certain lands were awarded to the churchwardens and overseers of the parish to provide inhabitants of property in the parish which was of a rateable value not exceeding £5 a year with fuel. In 1809 an agreement was made with the Duke of Bedford, under the 50th Parliament of George III, by which he undertook to supply 100 tons of coal a year, if the cost of coal exceeded £1 10s. a ton. Now, following the revision of the rating of property, the method of measuring property according to yearly value ceases to operate. On that value only 26 persons are entitled to receive benefits under the trust, and many of these could not be called poor; whereas there are many people who can be considered poor yet who, because they live in property having a rateable value of more than £5, cannot be beneficiaries under this charity.
The object of the Bill is to remove the rating qualification and to provide that beneficiaries under the charity shall be needy persons who have lived in Wavendon for not less than one year. Parliamentary sanction has to be obtained because it involves the alteration of an Act

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of Parliament. There is one point that I should like to mention to your Lordships. One of the new trustees mentioned in the Bill has, unfortunately, died, but I think that we can continue with the procedure because the remaining trustees will appoint a new trustee as soon as the Bill becomes law. The Bill has been widely advertised, and so far as I know no objection has been received. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Amulree.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.

RAILWAY PASSENGERS ASSURANCE BILL
Reported, with Amendments.
NORTH DEVON WATER BILL
The Queen's consent signified, and Bill reported, with Amendments.

PORTSMOUTH CORPORATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
House adjourned at five minutes past six o'clock