Sitting of 4 May 1959

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
DEATH OF A MEMBER
Mr. Speaker: I regret to have to inform the House of the death of James Harrison, esquire, Member for Nottingham, North, and I desire, on behalf of the House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the hon. Member.
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  PORTSMOUTH CORPORATION BILL
  As amended, to be considered Tomorrow.
  ROYAL WANSTEAD SCHOOL BILL [Lords]
  Read a Second time and committed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH

    Maternity Services Committee (Report)
    Mr. G. Wilsonasked the Minister of Health whether, following his further consideration of the Report of the Maternity Services Committee, he is now in a position to state which of the findings
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    of the Report he accepts; and what steps he is taking to implement its recommendations.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Derek Walker-Smith): Consultations with the interested organisations are in progress and I cannot yet make a statement; but I hope soon to be able to announce the acceptance of many of the Committee's recommendations.
    Mr. Wilson: There are five pages of summary of the various recommendations, many of which are small. When my right hon. Friend decides which he can accept, will it be possible to indicate in detail which of these proposals will be accepted and which will not be accepted?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I am obliged to my hon. Friend. I have that matter very much in mind.

    Tuberculosis
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Health whether he has noted the high percentage of pregnant women among those who are certified for the first time to be suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis; and what is the cause of this.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. Richard Thompson): There are no national figures showing the incidence of tuberculosis among pregnant women. Of those examined by mass miniature radiography in 1957, 1·5 per thousand were found to be suffering from tuberculosis compared with 1·8 per thousand of all persons so examined.
    Dr. Stross: Will the Parliamentary Secretary note that the provision of improved apparatus for mass radiography, namely, the 100 mm. apparatus—which allows medical practitioners to send their patients into the centre for investigation and X-ray and is very expeditious and satisfactory—would help to give a prompter and earlier diagnosis? Will he encourage the use of the 100 mm. apparatus as soon as possible in all centres in the way in which it is used at Stoke-on-Trent?
    Mr. Thompson: I know how close to the hon. Gentleman's heart this matter is. I will certainly see what can be done.

    Smoking (Lung Cancer)
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Health what further action he is taking to publicise the connection between smoking and lung cancer.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Local health authorities are continuing to publicise this information as part of their health education arrangements.
    Mr. Lipton: Why are the Government not stressing the dangers of smoking? It is clear that they are passing the buck" to local authorities and that the campaign so far has proved a complete fiasco. Is it not the case that more youngsters are beginning to smoke than ever before? What does the Government propose to do about it? Are they afraid of the tobacco manufacturers?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The hon. Gentle-man must not say that the campaign is a fiasco. The object of the campaign is to bring home to people the association between tobacco smoking, cigarette smoking, and lung cancer. So far as I am aware, that association is well within the mind of the public, but, of course, it does necessitate a continuance of the campaign which has already been carried out.
    Dr. Summerskill: Would not the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider instituting a propaganda campaign equal in effectiveness to the recent campaign about poliomyelitis? Will he not think about that?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The duty of the Government in this regard is to bring home to the public the association of
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    lung cancer with tobacco smoking and to see that any decision that is made by individual members of the public is made in the light of knowledge of the facts, and we are, through the local authorities, discharging this obligation. As I say, we must continue that campaign so as to keep the knowledge in the public mind.

    Leprosy
    Mr. N. Pannellasked the Minister of Health how many of the 275 persons in the United Kingdom suffering from leprosy at 31st December, 1958, were immigrants from the Commonwealth and Colonies.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: As stated in my reply to my hon. Friend's Questions on 27th April, I regret that information as to the country of birth of persons suffering from leprosy is not available.
    Mr. Pannell: Since most of the people suffering from this disease in this country at the moment contracted it outside the country, can we not assume that most of them are either colonial or Commonwealth immigrants? Does not my right hon. and learned Friend consider that regulations should be introduced to prevent people who are suffering from this disease from entering the country?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: We must be a little careful about what assumptions we make. No doubt a considerable number are immigrants, but there are also those born in this country who see service in areas abroad in varying capacities who contract the disease and then return to this country. I do not think there is any case here for taking drastic measures of the sort which my hon. Friend seems to have in mind.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman resist any attempt to create anxiety about this matter in view of the perfectly well known fact that leprosy can be much more easily controlled than in the past?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Yes, I think that is right. Contrary to what is often thought, leprosy is not a highly infectious disease. I do not think there is any reason for great apprehension about it.
    Mr. Ronald Bell: Is not leprosy nevertheless a very serious disease, whether curable or not? Even if the place of

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    birth of these people is not known, should it not be easy enough to find their country of origin and to see whether any immigration control, based upon that, ought to be exercised?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The powers of the port medical officers, in regard to cases where they detect or suspect infectious disease, are well known. I do not think it would be right, unless there were some specific cause for so doing, to ask for an amendment to the statutory regulations by way of providing further machinery, which, as I say, I do not think the facts in this case at present call for.

    Bronchitis
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the Minister of Health whether he will make a statement regarding the high incidence of bronchitis in the first quarter of 1959 and the action that is being taken to speed up preventive measures.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: There are no specific statistics of incidence, but deaths from bronchitis were more numerous in the early months of this year than in comparable periods of previous years. This increase was probably associated with the foggy weather and a widespread outbreak of influenza. I am sure that all those concerned with the prevention of this disease are aware of the urgency of the problem, but knowledge of its causes is not sufficient to form a basis for organised preventive measures of the kind that have achieved success in other fields.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman not realise that the increases, particularly in such places as Glasgow, London itself, Tyneside and elsewhere, have been very severe for the first three months of this year compared with the same period last year, and that there has been a one hundred per cent. increase in the deaths in Glasgow from bronchitis? Will he not use his best endeavours to speed up the clean-air programme and particularly, in so far as it is under his own control, see that the hospitals use smokeless fuel wherever possible?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Yes, there is an increase. The figures quoted by the hon. Gentleman for certain localities are, as he is aware, above the average increase.I quite accept that there is a serious problem here and the importance of the Clean
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    Air Act in this context. Although this is primarily a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government, I certainly have very much in mind my individual responsibilities in relation to hospitals.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Will not the right hon. and learned Gentleman make some recommendations to Manchester about it?

    Salary Awards (Cost)
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the Minister of Health what is the cost to the National Health Service of increased salary awards agreed at the time the Health Estimates were prepared for the curent financial year.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I assume that the hon. Member has in mind the figures for the hospital service, for which the additional provision made in 1959–60 compared with 1958–59 was about £31 million.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Is provision to be made by means of a Supplementary Estimate for the recent increase in salaries for nurses, or is this increase to be found —I hope not—out of the Estimates already published?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: No. The increase in respect of nurses is after the date to which the Estimate was made up and will call for a Supplementary Estimate.

    Social Workers (Report)
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the Minister of Health whether he has yet received the Younghusband Report; and when it will be published.
    Sir K. Josephasked the Minister of Health when the report of the Young-husband Working Party on Social Workers is likely to be published.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The Report is published today and copies are in the Library. I would like to express the thanks of the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself for the time and effort which the Chairman and members of the Working Party have devoted to producing this very thorough and valuable Report.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: While joining m thanks for the preparation of this voluminous Report, may I ask whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman will

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    give immediate attention, in particular, to the setting up of the national training scheme which is recommended, in view of the importance of it in relation to the Mental Health Bill now going through Parliament?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I will give immediate attention to this recommendation and to other valuable recommendations. The first thing I have to do is to get the views of local authority asociations on the recommendations. I am doing that at once, and in the light of the replies I will consider what decisions it is proper for me to come to.
    Dame Irene Ward: While I would express the thanks of a great many people who are interested in this Report for the action that the Minister is taking, may I ask him, in circulating local authorities, whether he will stimulate them to taking quick action because of the far-reaching proposals in the Bill and so that we may get moving on it without undue delay?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I think the local authorities fully realise the importance of this matter and the value of speed. I am sure that they will be encouraged in that approach by what my hon. Friend has been good enough to say just now.

    Cancer Research (Expenditure)
    Mr. Sydney Irvingasked the Minister of Health how much money will be spent by his Department on cancer research this year, apart from the £206,400 granted to the Institute of Cancer Research in this year's Estimate.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Expenditure from public funds on cancer research is mainly undertaken by the Medical Research Council which, I understand from my noble Friend the Lord President of the Council, expects to spend some £580,000 for this purpose during the current year, including the grant to the Institute of Cancer Research referred to in the Question. Cancer research is also carried out in the National Health Service in the course of treatment of patients, but, as I have told the hon. Member previously, it is impossible to make a separate estimate for the expenditure involved.
    Mr. Irving: Is the Minister aware that the House will have nothing but the highest praise for the effort made by voluntary bodies, but, while not wishing
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    to discourage in any way that magnificent effort, may I ask whether he is aware that it will be difficult for many people to understand why, in the attack on this terrible disease, so much of the burden should have to fall on voluntary effort? Will he examine the position again to ensure that no kind of fruitful research shall be held up through lack of funds?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I think the country appreciates the work done by voluntary bodies in addition to the public work in this direction. The view commonly taken is that this is a fruitful and proper field for the co-operation of voluntary action. The expenditure of public funds is increasing in a gratifying way.
    Dr. Summerskill: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman assure the House that an adequate amount of money, public and private, is forthcoming in this very important field of research?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Oh, yes. The increase in money is, I think, taking account of the general logistics of this question. As the right hon. Lady appreciates, in addition to having more money, we must increase the supply of personnel with the appropriate qualifications for contributing to the work.

    Medical Practice, Liverpool (Appointment)
    Mrs. Braddockasked the Minister of Health (1) why he has allowed an appeal against a recent appointment to a medical practice in the city of Liverpool; and, in view of the rule, hitherto observed throughout the National Health Service, that no medical practitioner shall, in the absence of special circumstances, be appointed to a vacant practice if he is already in charge of another practice which he does not undertake to abandon, whether he will make a statement on his policy in this respect;
    (2) whether he will make a full statement on the terms of the recent recommendation made by the Medical Practices Selection Committee of the Liverpool Executive Council in connection with a vacant medical practice.
    Mr. R. Thompson: The Liverpool Executive Council recommended one applicant and my right hon. and learned Friend allowed the appeal of another, mainly because he had more adequate experience in general practice. There is no

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    absolute rule to exclude the combination of practices. Executive councils know that the filling of each vacancy must be considered on its merits and my right hon. and learned Friend sees no need to issue new instructions on this subject.
    Mrs. Braddock: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that this has caused great consternation in the Liverpool Executive Council, which has strictly adhered in the past to the rule that one doctor should not be given another practice in the same area? In view of this situation, will he state emphatically that there is no intention of breaking the rule which has been followed for so long in the National Health Service?
    Mr. Thompson: Yes, I am quite happy to give that assurance. There has been no change of emphasis or direction here.
    Dr. Summerskill: Although it is recognised that other doctors on a short list should have an opportunity to make an appeal after one doctor has already been appointed to a vacancy, is this very common? Can the Parliamentary Secretary say how often the appellant is successful?
    Mr. Thompson: I cannot say without notice how often the appellant is successful, but we get quite a few cases. I should say that in this instance the issue was entirely decided on the merits of the case having regard to the qualifications, the experience and general practice of the successful appellant.
    Mrs. Braddock: If the Minister is so satisfied with the good character of the people who recommended the original appointment, why did he allow the appeal of the person who had accused them of corruption in the execution of their public duties? This is a very serious matter indeed. Would the Parliamentary Secretary please make a full statement of the position so that the character of those on the Liverpool Executive Council can be viewed in its right perspective?
    Mr. Thompson: My right hon. and learned Friend is perfectly satisfied that, in making this recommendation, there was no improper bias on the part of the Council in the first place. In reply to the second part of the supplementary question, may I say that the remarks of the appellant to which exception was taken were made when the appeal was
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    lodged. The doctor stated at the hearing that they formed no part of his case, which rested on qualifications and experience.

    Psychological Medicine (Degrees)
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Health what facilities are available for taking post-graduate degrees in psychological medicine; and how many such degrees have been awarded.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I am informed that diplomas in psychological medicine are awarded by the universities of Durham, Leeds, London, Manchester and by the Conjoint Board of the Royal College of Physicians and the Royal College of Surgeons; other degrees such as the M.D. and the Ph.D. can also be taken in psychological medicine. I cannot say how many such degrees have been awarded.
    Mr. Lipton: Will it surprise the right hon. and learned Gentleman to know that only three or four doctors in the country have a post-graduate degree in psychological medicine? Would it not be better to encourage more qualified people of that kind and rather fewer hypnotists. mind-healers and other people claiming to deal with mental health, getting people through 11-plus exams and driving tests, and so on?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Nothing the hon. Member says really surprises me, but those figures are perhaps a little unexpected and I should like an opportunity of checking them.

    Foreign Travel
    Mr. Barterasked the Minister of Health what action is taken by his Department to draw the attention of potential travelers abroad to the fact that the National Health Service does not operate in overseas countries.
    Mr. R. Thompson: Travellers are informed of the position in leaflets available in passport offices and local offices of the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance. The information is also given by a number of travel agencies.

    National Health Service Advisory Council (Appointment)
    Sir K. Josephasked the Minister of Health whether he is now able to announce the composition and terms of

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    reference of the council he is setting up to advise on the application of modern management techniques in the National Health Service.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The Council will be known as the "National Health Service Advisory Council for Management Efficiency (England and Wales)" and its terms of reference are:
    "To advise generally on measures for improving efficiency in the National Health Service in England and Wales".
    The chairman will be Sir Ewart Smith.
    The Council will concentrate in the first instance on problems connected with the hospital service, and this is reflected in the membership. The members have been invited to serve on the Council because of the personal contribution they can make as a result of their experience in the Hospital Service or in the promotion of management efficiency in other fields.
    I will, with permission, circulate the names of the members in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Sir K. Joseph: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the initiative which he has taken and the quality of the chairman he has secured for this important Council will be generally welcomed as likely to lead in due course to benefit for all concerned with the National Health Service?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend, who has taken a close interest in these matters. I am sure that the work of this Council will show considerable benefit for the hospital service.
    The following are the members (13 and Chairman): Mr. C. Bartlett, R.M.N., Mr. C. H. Beckett, Professor T. E. Chester, Mr. A. M. Hudson Davies, O.B.E., Mr. S. Hill, Dr. F. Avery Jones, F.R.C.P., Mr. S. C. Merivale, F.H.A., Mr. M. W. Perrin, C.B.E., F.R.I.C., Alderman R. G. Robinson, C.B.E., J.P., Professor Sir Arthur Thomson, MC., M.D., F.R.C.P., Sir Edward Thompson, J.P., Mr. G. Watts, F.H.A., and Miss M. L. Young, S.R.N., S.C.M., R.S.C.M.

    Nuclear and Allied Radiations
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Health how many persons in his Department and in the field of official medical research are at present employed
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    on the analysis of the effects of nuclear and allied radiations.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Analysis of the effects of ionising radiations forms part of the research and other activities of a number of organisations and the total number of individuals involved is not readily ascertainable. My Department shares with the Medical Research Council responsibility for the Radiological Protection Service, which has an establishment for 62 staff, 44 of them scientific and technical.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the Minister completely satisfied that he has the best scientific brains in the country at his disposal to advise the country on this matter? Is he aware that, quite apart from the merits or demerits of the Government's statements, there is an increasing anxiety amongst the public about the apparent conflict of scientific opinion on these matters and the fact that many eminent physicists and geneticists here and abroad have given opinions showing that they regard the situation as far more dangerous than do the Government's advisers?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: No, Sir. I do not think that there is the degree of conflict of opinion to which the hon. Member refers. As he knows, the research effort in this country is mainly under the aegis of the Medical Research Council and the Agricultural Research Council respectively, and both of these are the Departmental responsibility of my noble Friend the Lord President of the Council.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Does my right hon. and learned Friend appreciate that, however able and exact the scientific advice which the Government receive on this subject, there will still be those who, for international political reasons, refuse to accept it?
    Dr. Summerskill: While disregarding the noble Lord's fatuous intervention, may I ask the Minister what plans are in preparation for the protection of the public in the event of an announcement being made that there has been a further increase in strontium in the atmosphere?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I do not think that it would be right to answer a far-ranging question of that sort except on specific notice. If the right hon. Lady cares to

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    put the Question down, it will be answered in due course. I replied because I should not like by silence to be thought to associate myself with her assessment of my noble Friend's very proper supplementary question.
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Health if he will produce and circulate to the general public an explanatory booklet, written in terms intelligible to the layman, on the hazards to man of nuclear and allied radiations and the authoritative views of the official scientific advisers of Her Majesty's Government on the subject.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Both the report of the Medical Research Council on hazards to man of nuclear and allied radiations and the more recent report of the United Nations Scientific Committee were written in terms intended to be within the grasp of the layman. I am not sure that a more simplified explanatory booklet would be feasible at present.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the Minister aware that not all laymen, at any rate, can grasp the terms in which the recent Government statements have been couched, nor can they understand some of the ambiguous and speculative statements which seem to be included and which give rise to a great deal of anxiety? As on some of these subjects there are distinguished scientists, whether politically suspect or not, such as Dr. Linus Pauling, who make categorical assertions, whereas the Government on the other hand are ambiguous, ought not the public to be told in plain terms what conclusions the Government have reached on the basis of their present scientific advice?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I do not think there is any ambiguity in this matter. It is necessarily highly technical, but the M.R.C. publication on hazards to man of nuclear and allied radiations and the report of the United States Scientific Committee on the effects of atomic radiation, issued last August, have, as far as is possible, relegated their highly technical material to appendices, and the body of the reports are supposed to be reasonably intelligible to the layman.
    Mr. Fort: Has my right hon. and learned Friend noted that in the United Nations Report there was agreement
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    not only in the views of the British representatives of the Medical Research Council but also among the scientific representatives of eleven other nations, including the U.S.S.R.?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Yes. I think that is a very valuable and gratifying fact.
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Minister of Health at what intervals regularly he receives expert reports upon the hazards to man of radioactive fall-out and allied dangers.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Regular reports are not submitted to me, but my Department is, of course, in touch with the arrangements for monitoring and reporting on fall-out which have been described by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on several occasions. Hazards from medical uses of radiation are under review by Lord Adrian's Committee.

  HOSPITALS

    Iver Cottage Hospital
    Mr, Ronald Bellasked the Minister of Health what attempts were made by the North-West Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board to obtain sufficient staff to open Iver Cottage Hospital as a maternity unit or as a local general cottage hospital; and with what success.
    Mr. R. Thompson: I am informed that staff were sought by repeated advertisement; by articles in the local Press; and by personal approaches for assistance in recruiting to local people known to be interested in the hospital. A number of offers of part-time help were made, but it was found impossible to provide the minimum necessary nursing staff.
    Mr. Bell: Would not my hon. Friend think that further attempts should be made now, more especially in the light of the Cranbrook Committee's Report? Does my right hon. Friend intend to accept that recommendation which would result in Iver Hospital becoming a maternity hospital?
    Mr. Thompson: The difficulty is that recruitment of staff specifically for a maternity hospital would not prove any more easy than under the present arrangement when it was a children's hospital, but we shall continue to do our best.

    Nurses, Wales
    Mr. Gowerasked the Minister of Health what improvement has occurred in the recruitment of nurses in Wales; what is the present extent of wastage from the nursing profession in Wales; and what is his estimate of the additional recruitment of nurses needed to satisfy present requirements.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: In the year ended 30th September, 1958, whole-time nursing staff increased by 4·4 per cent. and part-time staff by 8·1 per cent. Nurses in training increased by 2·4 per cent. Wastage of student nurses is about 37 per cent. Hospital nursing establishments are being re-assessed on the basis of the 88 hour fortnight, and I will write to the hon. Member when I have the figures.

    Wythenshawe Hospital
    Mr. W. Griffithsasked the Minister of Health for what reason the Manchester Regional Hospital Board has decided to resite the proposed Wythenshawe Hospital; what will be the reduction in the number of beds caused by the changed plan; and what form of heating is proposed to be used.
    Mr. R. Thompson: I understand that the Manchester Regional Hospital Board has not yet reached a decision, and I do not therefore know what its proposals will be.
    Mr. Griffiths: Is the Minister aware that it is widely believed in Manchester that the Minister of Health has agreed that the new hospital shall be sited elsewhere from the plans originally approved, that the hospital will be built with fifty or more fewer beds and that the heating system will be with solid fuel, the sulphur fumes from which will cause a greater degree of air pollution than is wished for by the Manchester Corporation? Can he give an assurance that these widespread apprehensions in Manchester are unsoundly based?
    Mr. Thompson: I am sure that that supplementary question arises out of Press comments, which suggested that the regional board had decided on a new scheme and had settled with my right hon. and learned Friend. This is not so. The board has not yet taken a decision, and no proposals have been sent to my right hon. and learned Friend.

    Consultants
    Mr. Croninasked the Minister of Health if he will put in hand measures to enable regional hospital boards, where consultants' appointments have been terminated through no fault of their own, to re-employ these consultants in other posts without the necessity of their applying for them in competition through advertisements.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I am considering an amendment of the National Health Service (Appointment of Specialists) Regulations, 1950, with this point in mind.
    Mr. Cronin: Does this not need careful consideration? Is it not the case that under the present regime, with the advances in medical science and changes in local population, there may be considerable necessity to redeploy consultants and that therefore flexibility is desirable?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: That is quite true. With the advancing, changing techniques it is desirable to try to have a flexible system.

    Admissions, Manchester
    Mr. W. Griffithsasked the Minister of Health whether he will state the numbers on the waiting list for admission to hospitals in the Manchester Regional Hospital Board's area at the latest convenient date.
    Mr. R. Thompson: 56,772 at 31st December last.
    Mr. Griffiths: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is about 9,000 more than the figures I obtained for 1957 and that at that time in the Manchester region there were about four times as many on the waiting list as in the Liverpool region, about three times the number on the waiting list in the Leeds region, and about twice the number on the waiting list of the average London hospital? Is he aware that there is great and growing anger about this situation in Manchester, particularly as it affects the maternity service, about which we have warned him and the Minister repeatedly? Will he bear these facts in mind when he is considering the size of the new hospital referred to in an earlier Question and to be sited in South Manchester?
    Mr. Thompson: No, I could not accept the hon. Member's figures entirely I

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    think he had in mind the totality of the matter, whereas my reply was related to his Question, which was about the numbers on the waiting list strictly for the hospitals of the regional board. On that, the corresponding figure for the end of 1957 was 55,309 and for 1956 58,035.

    Mr. A. H. Barber
    Mr. Croninasked the Minister of Health what applications for consultant vacancies in the hospital service have been received since 8th December last from Mr. A. H. Barber. the consultant, who was wrongfully dismissed by the Manchester Regional Hospital Board in 1952; and with what result.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: My information is that Mr. Barber has made two applications. In one he was unsuccessful, the other is still undecided.
    Mr. Cronin: Is it not quite a long time ago that the Minister agreed that there was a moral responsibility on the part of Manchester Regional Hospital Board to re-employ this unfortunate consultant? As the notion of moral responsibility forms an important part of every consultant's contract, is it not desirable that some account should be taken of that to help this gentleman as soon as possible?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Yes, but, as the Regulations of 1950 now stand, the moral obligation can come into play only if a particular applicant has been recommended by the Appointments Advisory Committee as being equally suitable with others whom it also short lists. That is the present position under the Regulations.
    Dr. Summerskill: Is it not paradoxical that here is a brilliant gynaecologist out of work while in parts of Britain there are long lists of women waiting for gynaecological operations?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Mr. Barber has his next interview with the Appointments Advisory Committee for a vacancy in the Ashton, Hyde and Glossop Group tomorrow. I think we had better see what comes out of that. The more general part of the question was, I think, covered by my answer to the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin).

    Miss Edith Haithwaite
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Health what were the periods, giving
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    dates, during which Miss Edith Haithwaite received 11s, and 6s, a week, respectively, at Rampton Mental Hospital.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: She received 1ls, a week from September, 1956, until April, 1957, and 6s, a week from November, 1953, until February, 1955, and from May, 1956, until August, 1956.
    Mr. Dodds: What has the Minister to say about his Answer last week in which he said that I used extravagant language in stating that for several years she had
    "worked all day long on a sock-making machine and at night, after the patients had gone to bed, was cleaning and sweeping up the place for 6s, a week? "—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th April, 1959; Vol. 604, c. 890.1
    Is that not correct? How can it be extravagant language?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: I used the term "extravagant language" rather in regard to the hon. Member's choice of epithet and somewhat unrestrained mode of expression on this and similar questions in the House.
    Mr. Dodds: Will the Minister explain why, having said that, he went on to say that she had been paid 11s, and not 6s? Why does he continue to wriggle in this disgraceful case?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The hon. Member is wrong as usual. If he will look at the OFFICIAL REPORT he will see that I said that she was receiving 11s, at the date of her discharge, which ties in exactly with the Answer which I have given today.
    Mr. Dodds: The Minister is misleading the House.
    Mr. Doddsasked the Minister of Health (1) on what date or dates Miss Edith Haithwaite was seen by an officer of the local health authority following advice by his Department after her 17½ years illegal detention in Ramp-ton Mental Hospital; in what way practical assistance was given to her in this connection; and, as she has been without employment for the past three months and is living in particularly poor circumstances, what action he proposes to take to see she is given assistance other than that given by the National Assistance Board;
    (2) in view of the harmful effect of the illegal incarceration of Miss Edith Haithwaite from the age of 17 to 35

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    years to her prospects of marriage and a family, if he will take action to give all possible assistance to Miss Haithwaite in her desire to secure employment amongst children in a hospital, nursery or home, preferably the latter.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: The local health authority was informed of Miss Haithwaite's discharge from hospital, and it arranged for an officer to visit her in November 1957. He found that she was in employment and told her and her sister to get into touch with him if they found themselves in any difficulties. They have not done so, but I am asking the local health authority to arrange for a further visit to be paid.
    Mr. Dodds: Does the Minister appreciate that this woman, having been sent out by his Department with only £1 after 18 years, had to do something to get a living, and that it would have been very much better if the officer had been a little quicker on the job, because he might have been able to help? I appreciate that the Minister now intends to try to do something for this very unfortunate woman.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: If the hon. Member will look at the report of the hearing of these proceedings, as I have asked him to do, he will see that the Board of Control and the Divisional Court were very much concerned that Miss Haithwaite should have proper care and accommodation on her discharge in April, 1957.
    Dr. Summerskill: Would the Minister agree that the answer to this pathetic case is for the Minister to use his good offices and to find a sympathetic matron of one of our children's homes who, I am sure, would protect this woman and at the same time use her services in the best possible way?
    Mr. Walker-Smith: That might be a solution, and I will certainly have it in mind.

    LAW OF THE SEA (CONFERENCE)
    Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what preparations are now being made to present the British case at the Second Law of the Sea Conference in 1960.
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Robert Allan): Preparatory work for this Conference is going ahead. As my hon. Friend will realise, however, much of this is of necessity confidential and I am afraid I cannot give details.
    Mr. Wall: Will the Joint Under-Secretary of State say whether we are having conversations with foreign States who think as we do about this problem, and in particular with the Commonwealth countries? Will he say when the leader of the delegation is likely to be appointed and whether the fishing industry will be represented on the delegation?
    Mr. Allan: Yes. We are having consultations with other Governments and Commonwealth countries. I think that I can say categorically that industry will be represented. As the Conference will not take place for a year, it would be a little premature to appoint the leader now.

    ICELANDIC FISHERIES DISPUTE
    Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Icelandic Government are now permitting British trawlers to land men who are seriously ill at Icelandic ports without penalty.
    Mr. R. Allan: The Icelandic Government permit British trawlermen who are seriously ill to be landed at an Icelandic port for treatment from their own vessel. If the skipper of the vessel concerned could be charged with infringement of the Icelandic fishery regulations, he would be liable to be prosecuted.
    Mr. Wall: Will my hon. Friend agree that this is a humanitarian rather than a political matter? Will he make further representations to the Iceland Government, who have a very excellent record when it comes to succouring seamen in distress?
    Mr. Allan: Yes, but this is one of the unfortunate consequences of the whole dispute, which is not of Her Majesty's Government's seeking.

    SUDAN (STATUES)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reasons were given by the Government of

    21
    the Sudan for returning the statues of Lord Kitchener and General Gordon to the British Government.
    The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr John Profumo): The Sudan Government originally intended to transfer the statues to a national historical museum in Khartoum. They subsequently offered to present the statues to Her Majesty's Government as a gift. As I stated on 17th December, Her Majesty's Government accepted this offer.
    Mr. Hughes: Does not the Minister of State think that this is a rather unfriendly action on the part of the Sudanese Government? Does he not think that it is an awful prospect to think of all the statues which might be returned to London?
    Mr. Profumo: I do not know about considering this an unfriendly attitude on the part of the Sudanese Government, but I think that I might refer the hon. Gentleman to an article he wrote in the pages of Izvestia on 18th January on this subject in which he said. I thought rather foolishly, that he thought that the Sudanese were rather nicer than the Irish.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister of State aware that I ended that article by saying that the Irish were much wiser and more friendly to us by blowing up the statues?

  GERMANY

    Berlin (Foreign Secretary's Visit)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, in view of its importance in forthcoming discussions, he will consider visiting Berlin to investigate personally conditions in the city before putting forward his proposals on its future.
    Mr. Profumo: My right hon. and learned Friend has an invitation outstanding from Herr Brandt to visit West Berlin. He hopes to be able to accept it during the course of the summer.
    Mr. Hughes: Will the Minister of State tell us when a Foreign Secretary was last in Berlin?
    Mr. Profumo: Not without notice.

    Nuclear Weapons
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent German armed forces have been or are now being supplied with, or trained in the use of, weapons with nuclear potential by Great Britain or other North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Governments.
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what discussions have taken place recently in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation for the supply of intermediate range missiles to the West German navy; and what proposals on this subject were put forward by Her Majesty's Government's representative.
    Mr. Profumo: So far as Her Majesty's Government are concerned, our policy was set out in my right hon. and learned Friend's reply to the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) on 2nd December last. I have nothing to add to this and to the reply given to the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Warbey) on 15th April and to that given him by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 9th April.
    Mr. Allaun: But if General Norstad insists on his policy of instant retaliation and of keeping nuclear weapons at the ready in forward bases, does it not mean that the German general will, in effect, control not only the Matador missile bases but also the missiles themselves, or at least will be able to get hold of them easily? As regards Question No. 45, has the Minister of State seen the statement by Admiral Wright that the Western German Navy will be supplied with intermediate range missiles? Is not that contrary to the treaty regulations?
    Mr. Profumo: Let me answer the last part of the supplementary question first. I can assure the hon. Member that there are no plans or proposals for handing over these nuclear warheads or bombs to any individual national force in Germany.
    With regard to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, General Norstad himself has stated:
    "In order to ensure the control of these very important weapons—and I must say it, to keep faith with the Governments of N.A.T.O. —I keep in my own hands, under a very tight centralised control, the units that are equipped to use nuclear weapons."
    Mr. P. Noel-Baker: Have the Government altogether abandoned the proposals for total nuclear disarmament which they were pressing on the Russians until only four years ago?
    Mr. Profumo: No. I was only answering the Question on the Order Paper.

    Reunification
    Mr. Healeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what official information he has received from the West German Government of a conversation between Dr. Schaeffer, Minister of Justice in the German Federal Republic, and General Mueller, of the East German army, regarding German reunification.
    Mr. R. Allan: None, Sir.
    Mr. Healey: Will the Joint Under-Secretary of State say whether the Government have any unofficial information of these conversations? Will he inform the German Government that, while we have no objection to contacts of this type between the regimes of the two German States, we cannot agree that the West German Government should demand of their Allies standards of conduct in this repect totally different from those which they observe?
    Mr. Allan: The answer to the first part of the supplementary is, No, Sir. We have not had an approach, official or unofficial.
    Mr. Healey: I asked whether the Government had had information, not approaches.

    Berlin Air Corridor
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state the nature of the official communications between Her Majesty's Government and the United States Government about flights by United States aeroplanes more than 10,000 feet over the West German corridor.
    Mr. Rankinasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what consultations the United States Government have had with him on the advisability of continuing high-altitude flights in the Berlin air corridor.
    Mr. Profumo: I would refer the hon. Gentlemen to the reply my right hon. and learned Friend gave to the hon. Members
    24
    for Aston (Mr. J. Silverman) and Leek (Mr. Harold Davies) on 20th April.
    Mr. Allaun: Is the Minister of State aware that the view widely held in this country is that these flights are highly, if not deliberately, provocative and the worst possible prelude to peace talks? Will the Government change their view and speak to the American Government about this matter, instead of whispering, if they have done even that?
    Mr. Profumo: Her Majesty's Government and that of the United States are, in this as in all matters, in very close contact.
    Mr. Rankin: I noticed that in the reply to which the hon. Gentleman referred it was stated that the British Government's views were quite well known in the United States. Can I take it from that that our Government made it clear to the United States that they thought that these flights were inadvisable at this time?
    Mr. Profumo: No, Sir. I think it would be a dangerous thing for the hon. Gentleman to take for granted. We have always held that this is a matter for individual Governments to decide, and I will take the opportunity of saying that we do not believe that this was a directly provocative action.
    Mr. Bevan: The hon. Gentleman says that this is a matter for individual Governments to decide, but is it not perfectly obvious that, if an incident occurred in the corridor between West and East Germany and there was armed attack, we might be immediately involved? Surely, it is not a matter for unilateral action. Is it not the fact that the view of Her Majesty's Government is that, while they do not accept that there are any legal limitations on the altitude at which these aeroplanes can fly, it is obviously undesirable to make use of the extent of our legal limits immediately before conferring with the Russians?
    Mr. Profumo: All I was saying was that there may be various reasons for aircraft having to fly higher than 10,000 ft. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, weather conditions or the performance of the aircraft itself can affect this. I was just saying that the exercise of this right at any particular time is a matter for judgment by the Governments concerned.

    GENEVA CONFERENCE (NUCLEAR TESTS)
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what progress has been made at the Geneva Conference on nuclear tests in the light of the declaration made in the Anglo-Soviet Communiqué of 3rd March.
    Mr. Profumo: I would refer the hon. Member to the statements made by my right hon. and learned Friend and my right hon. Friend the Minister of State in the foreign affairs debate on 27th April. Since that time there has been some discussion at the Conference of Soviet proposals for an agreed number of annual inspections, but, as negotiation is still at an exploratory stage, I do not wish to go into details. Meanwhile, the Conference has adopted some more draft Articles of a procedural nature.
    Mr. Warbey: Is the Minister of State aware that the proposal for the rationing of inspections was first put forward by the Prime Minister at Moscow? Is the British delegation at Geneva now content with putting forward a series of awkward questions about this proposal when it comes from the Soviet side, or will it take a constructive attitude and help in supplying some of the answers?
    Mr. Profumo: Her Majesty's Government have maintained a very constructive attitude throughout. I think it would do no service to the cause which we all have at heart if we were to discuss this matter at a moment when my right hon. Friend the Minister of State has just returned to Geneva again.
    Mr. A. Henderson: May we take it that the present position at the Geneva Conference will be reviewed at the forthcoming meeting of Foreign Ministers to start in Geneva next Monday?
    Mr. Profumo: I do not think we can necessarily take that as being so. The Geneva Conference is out on its own to try to solve the problem. I can certainly go so far as to say that this is one of the matters which will naturally be taken into consideration by the four Foreign Ministers.
    Mr. Bevan: Does not the Minister of State realise that it is a little irritating to the Opposition to have tart observations from him about the proceedings at
    26
    Geneva when, in fact, we know nothing about them except the ex parte statements made from the other side of the House?
    Mr. Profumo: I do not think they have been ex parte or tart. I cannot accept that. We have given all the information we possibly can on the matter which, I know the right hon. Gentleman himself recognises, is immensely difficult and complicated. Every effort is being made by Her Majesty's Government to try to solve this difficult problem.

    CENTRAL EUROPE (RAPACKI PLAN)
    Mr. Warbeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to what extent it is still the policy of Her Majesty's Government to give consideration to any proposals submitted by the Polish Government for the creation, by two stages, of a denuclearised zone in Central Europe.
    Mr. Profumo: The position of Her Majesty's Government regarding the Rapacki Plan was made quite clear in the Foreign Affairs debate on 27th April. I have nothing to add to what was then said.
    Mr. Warbey: Since the information which the Opposition were given in the debate was extremely meagre and vague, and since we have to rely to a large extent on Foreign Office leaks to the Press for our information, will the Minister of State tell us whether the Government are allowing the military leaders of N.A.T.O. to impose a veto on the proper consideration of the Rapacki Plan or similar proposals?
    Mr. Profumo: No, Sir.

    UNITED STATES (MR. F. J. WILLIAMS)
    Mr. S. Silvermanasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what representations he will make to the United States Government in the case of Frederick J. Williams, a British subject, now 52 years old, who has lived in the United States of America since he was one year old, who until recently believed himself to be a natural-born United States citizen and against whom a deportation order has been made, although he has never been convicted of an offence.

    27
    and although all his relations, including his father aged 79, his two brothers, his four sisters, as well as his married daughter and two grandchildren, are resident in the United States of America.
    Mr. R. Allan: A report has been received from Her Majesty's Embassy in Washington that an appeal is pending at the court in Cincinnati, Ohio. It would be improper for Her Majesty's Ambassador to intervene before a decision has been handed down by this court. He has, however, been instructed to watch this case closely.
    Mr. Silverman: While thanking the Joint Under-Secretary for that reply, may I ask whether his attention has been drawn to the judgment of the United States judge, who felt reluctantly compelled by the then state of American law to make the decision he did; and, in particular, to the following short passage from that judgment, when the judge said:
    "If he is deported to a foreign land where he has no relatives, friends or acquaintances, it appears obvious that it would be still more difficult for him to earn a living during his declining years. The record indicates that the plaintiff had an honest belief that he was a native born citizen. Whatever views he acquired "—
    Hon. Members: Order.
    Mr. Speaker: I think that the hon. Gentleman is treating us to a somewhat prolonged quotation. If he has a question to ask, it would be better if he put it.
    Mr. Silverman: Mr. Speaker, I wanted to ask the Minister—and I should have been finished long ago but for the interruptions—whether his attention had been drawn to a particular short passage from the judge's judgment—about three sentences of it altogether—and, with your permission, I should like to complete my quotation. The judge went on to say:
    "Whatever views he acquired as to the relative merits of different"—
    Sir H. Butcher: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I respectfully ask whether other hon. Members will be entitled to give somewhat lengthy quotations in their supplementaries?
    Mr. Speaker: The trouble is that I cannot really judge the length of the quotation until it is finished. If the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) says that it consists of three
    28
    short sentences, then, naturally, I accept his word, and I expect his performance to come up to his word.
    Mr. Silverman: I said a moment ago, Mr. Speaker, that the quotation consisted of three sentences and that is what it does consist of. The judge said:
    "Whatever views he acquired as to the relative merits of different types of Government came from our public school system, news media and contacts with native born companions. It was but natural for him to assume that he had the right of freedom of thought, freedom of expression, and freedom of association. Had he been born a year later "—
    and this is the last sentence:
    "he could not now be banished to a foreign land for exercising those rights."
    Will the Under-Secretary bear in mind that, whatever may be thought on the other side of the House, we on this side would expect the Foreign Secretary and our Ambassador in America to protect a British subject in the exercise of those rights?
    Mr. Allan: I am quite sure that my hon. Friends would have the same sentiments—[Horn. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I have read not only those three sentences but the whole of that judgment. It is a very serious document, but I have already pointed out to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) that this is not a proper moment to intervene. Nevertheless, my right hon. and learned Friend is aware of the case, and has instructed the Ambassador to watch it carefully.

    IRAQ (IMPORT BAN)
    Mr. Healeyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what representation he has made to the Iraqi Government concerning its official ban on imports of Imperial Chemical Industries products into Iraq.
    Mr. Profumo: We were aware that the Iraq Government were contemplating this move, and representations were made to the Iraqi Minister for Foreign Affairs before the ban was imposed. Since his return to Bagdad from his recent visit here, Her Majesty's Ambassador has raised the matter again with the Iraqi Foreign Minister.
    Mr. Healey: In view of the fact that the Iraqi Government try to justify this on the grounds that also exports goods to Israel, will Her Majesty's Government withdraw authorisation for the export of arms to Iraq from British firms that are also exporting arms to Israel, as this export of arms is, in any case, quite contrary to British interests?
    Mr. Profumo: I understand that Imperial Chemical Industries (Export) Limited—the company in Iraq—is not involved in Israel in any way and is quite separate from the I.C.I. sales company to which the hon. Gentleman refers.
    Mr. Bevan: That is not the question my hon. Friend asked. What he asked was whether, in view of the fact that we have supplied arms to Iraq and Iran, and to Israel, we cannot expect those nations to impose the same ban upon the import of arms from us as they do on peaceful merchandise?
    Mr. Profumo: No, I think that that is a very much wider question, and I should like notice of it.

    TIBET (BRITISH SUBJECTS)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs by what means he ascertains the presence of, or absence of, any British subjects in Tibet.
    Mr. Profumo: Her Majesty's Government have no official representation in Tibet, but in the case of a territory so difficult of access it is most unlikely that any citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies would get there without Her Majesty's Government hearing of it. As I stated in my reply on 7th April to my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Teeling), none is known to be there at present.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the Minister of State aware that the British Army once got to this inaccessible place—to Lhasa? But how does he keep informed on events in Tibet? Is he aware that the Chinese are saying that they are only following the precedent of a British army that entered and interfered there? Who is qualified to reply to that?
    Mr. Profumo: The hon. Gentleman really must look at the Question he puts down. If he wants a different Answer he
    30
    must put down a different Question. He asked how Her Majesty's Government knew about British subjects being in Tibet, and I have answered that Question.

    REDUCTION OF STATELESSNESS (CONFERENCE)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the breakdown of the Conference of Plenipotentiaries on Reduction of Statelessness, he will instruct the United Kingdom delegates to the General Assembly of the United Nations to press for an early resumption of the Conference.
    Mr. R. Allan: We have not yet completed a full study of the proceedings of the Conference. When we have done so, we shall certainly seek its resumption if, as seems probable, there is a chance of agreement being reached.
    Mr. Janner: One appreciates the attitude adopted by the Government and those who served the Government at that Conference, and the manner in which they conducted the proceedings, and I should like to thank them for that. At the same time, does not the hon. Gentleman realise that it is important that we should proceed on similar lines with a view to getting cleared up the one small point that was still left at issue, so that some satisfactory results might be obtained from a Conference of this description in the future?
    Mr. Allan: If it looked as though we could clear up that one small point we would press for the resumption of the Conference.

    UNITED NATIONS (CHARTER REVIEW CONFERENCE)
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will instruct his representative on the Committee on Arrangements for a Charter Review Conference to propose that a Charter Review Conference be held during 1960.
    Mr. Profumo: The Committee on Arrangements for a Charter Review Conference will meet before this year's General Assembly meeting. Her Majesty's Government have not yet determined what line they will pursue when

    31
    this meeting takes place. But there is, unfortunately, no reason to suppose that the Soviet attitude opposing any amendment of the Charter has changed and, until it does, the Soviet veto could frustrate the work of any Charter Review Conference which might be held.

    QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
    At the end of Questions—
    Mr. Bevan: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that there have been reports in the public Press to the effect that discussions are taking place at the Council of N.A.T.O. about the proposal to admit Spain into N.A.T.O., which is a very important departure, would the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs find it possible, with your permission, to answer Question No. 49?
    Mr. Speaker: Does the Minister desire to answer the Question?
    Mr. Profumo: I do not desire to answer it, but I am quite prepared to do so, Sir.
    Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) will, in any case, get an answer, and if he does not like it he may come back with a Question again.
    Mr. Bevan: I hate to see the Minister of State in such torment. Would it not be possible, in courtesy to the House, to convert his lack of desire into willingness to do so?
    Mr. Speaker: No, I think I would have to stop it. It is past half-past three.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[Mr. R. A. Butler.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  SUPPLY
  [12TH ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]

  SUPPLY

    CIVIL ESTIMATES AND ESTIMATES FOR REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, 1959–60
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    That a further sum, not exceeding £50 be granted to Her Majesty towards defraying the charges for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1960, for the following services connected with Fuel and Power policy, namely:—

    Civil Estimates, 1959–60

    £

    Class IX, Vote 5 (Ministry of Power)

    10

    Class IX, Vote 6 (Ministry of Power (Special Services))

    10

    Class IX, Vote 7 (Atomic Energy)

    10

    Class IX, Vote 8 (Department of Scientific and Industrial Research)

    10

    Class 1, Vote 23 (Scottish Home Department)

    10

    Total

    £50

  FUEL AND POWER
  3.32 p.m.
  Mr. Alfred Robens: About forty-five years ago the Lancashire cotton industry was a thriving industry and it was employing about 622,000 people. At the end of last year the number of people employed in that industry had decreased to 246,000, and the position in Lancashire had reached such a state that the Government came to Parliament and asked for £30 million to enable the mill owners in Lancashire to smash machines, to close more mills and to declare redundant many more cotton workers.
  The result of that is that in Lancashire towns there are houses to let—a phenomenon which is not found in many other parts of the country. Towns are emptying of their young people and are becoming the depressed towns that we knew in the days of the 1920s and 1930s.
  It may seem a little strange to open a debate on the coal industry with that reference to the cotton industry, but I have done so because I wish to ask the question: is this to happen to the coal

  33
  industry? It must be remembered that cotton was so prosperous in those days that no one believed that that could happen, but it has happened; and it would be a mistake on the part of the Opposition if we were not, while the opportunity is here with us, to enable the coal industry to have its proper place in the economic development of the country. It would be a great mistake if we failed to bring these matters to the attention of Parliament and to invite the Government to pay some attention to what is happening now in this great industry.
  It must be remembered that there are three quarters of a million men directly employed in this industry to-day, and that if one were to take into consideration the number of people engaged in the supply industries of the coal industry, I have no doubt that it would show that about one-twentieth of the working population of Britain is engaged directly or indirectly in this great industry.
  There is the same peculiar position about coal that we have about cotton, inasmuch as its production is concentrated in confined areas, mainly in villages and small communities. The whole life of the communities in the pit villages is centred around the work of the pits themselves. Therefore, when there are pit closures, and great redundancy follows as a result, the effect upon the whole of the community concerned is tremendous. It leaves it desolate. It creates a situation which no one who has even been in a pit village when the pit has closed would want to see.
  In July last year the Parliamentary Secretary was rather optimistic about the prospects of the coal industry, but I do not think that his optimism has been borne out. He was speaking of parents of young boys and of schoolmasters whose boys were about to leave school, and he said that it would be a great mistake if they failed to encourage youngsters to enter the coal industry. He said:
  "It would be absolutely disastrous if there were any kind of feeling in the colliery districts that to go into this industry could he going into a dead end, and that after a year or two we might get back to the bad old days when there would be no work."
  He added:
  "Any man in the industry who is doing well has not the slightest fear that, as a result of
  34
  this cutting down by the Board of the total of manpower …any man's job is at stake."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th July, 1958; Vol. 591, c. 828–9.]
  I see that the Parliamentary Secretary is apparently nodding. I am sorry that he was not with me during the weekend, in some of the coalfields. This is not the view of the men who work in the industry. The Parliamentary Secretary, who has told us that the men in the mining villages need have no fear, would want to correct some of his impressions if he had visited some of the pit villages and spoken to some of the men who are now working there. The fear is there. It is in all the coalfields. We cannot get away from the fact that throughout the whole of the coalfields there is grave anxiety. The anxiety on the part of the men now in the industry is that they do not know what their future is to be. I am hoping that as a result of this debate we shall hear from the Government what they think is to be the future of this industry and of those employed in it.
  We must not forget—and I think this is where the Parliamentary Secretary went wrong—that although the wastage in the coal industry is about 60,000 men each year, this is very thinly spread over the whole of the coalfields, and, therefore, it does not always help in effecting a reduction in manpower in the sort of orderly way that the Parliamentary Secretary probably had in mind. It is not as though 60,000 men can come off the payroll without some pits being closed as a result. The truth is that because this wastage is thinly spread, one does not get the advantage of 60,000 men off the payroll as would happen in, say, the engineering industry, where very large numbers of people work under one roof.
  Therefore, to contract the industry in the panic way in which it has been done in the last few months—that is to say, by closing pits without the long notice that is required to make the proper transfers to other pits and other arrangements—means premature pit closures which catch all the disabled men who are on light work. There is no chance for them quickly to find other occupations. It catches all the men of 65 who have decided to continue working a little longer—because all people have been asked by the Government from time to time to work longer. It catches those

  35
  and all who are approaching 65 years of age.
  Premature pit closures bring a great deal of anxiety to the areas in which the pits are situated and they also bring real hardship, suffering and lack of hope to all those people whom I have mentioned and for whom there is no future in the industry. The future for them is the dole and National Assistance.
  I do not myself see why there should not be a small contraction in the industry —and I shall come to some figures which I regard as reasonable later—but if there is to be a contraction at all it must be done over a long period. It must be properly planned and all the social consequences of the contraction must be taken into consideration. If we do not do that, we shall create a very serious situation which will have its effect upon the recruitment which the industry needs, the recruitment of young people and young technicians in other parts of the coalfields where pits are being developed.
  We were asking for as much coal as we could possibly have right up to 1957. In 1957, there was a decline in the solid fuel requirement of about 7 million tons. In 1958. the decline went on to a further 13 million tons. At that stage, it was expected that during 1959 there would be a further fall of 8 million tons, which would mean a reduction in consumption of about 28 million tons from the base year 1957. It was on the estimates that there would be this fall in 1959 of a further 8 million tons that the Government agreed to the proposals of the National Coal Board that it should stock a further 3 million tons, that it should cut 3 million tons from opencast production, and that it should close pits which would reduce production by 3 million tons.
  That was as recently as the last debate we had, in April last year, I think it was. The Government were then quite satisfied that that would meet the position in 1959. But will it? Eight million tons is the estimated decline for this year. In the first 15 weeks, which brings us up to 18th April, I think, already consumption has fallen by 5,200,000 tons. If it goes on at this rate, the fall will not be 8 million tons for 1959, but 17 million tons. Seventeen million tons is the product of the full-time work for a whole year of 60,000
  36
  miners. This is the situation we face this afternoon, the prospect that, if the fall in consumption goes on this year as it has in the first weeks, as compared with last year, the work of 60.000 miners will not be required.
  I suppose that, if those people are put on the employment exchanges and National Assistance, it will cost the country at the very least £250,000 a week in maintenance. That will mean about £l3 million in a full year. That is the grim picture we face now. There has been this rapid decline in the consumption of coal. Obviously, wrong estimates were made last year about the decline, and the measures taken last year will not be sufficient. We shall want to know today what further measures are proposed.
  There are two reasons for the decline. The first is the industrial recession created by the Government. Of that I shall say nothing more, because we have had very many debates in the House, on economic affairs and on the Budget, and we have dealt fairly thoroughly with the responsibility of the Government for the stagnation of industry. Undoubtedly, if industry stagnates its requirement for coal is reduced, and this is plainly shown in the figures which I shall quote of industrial use, particularly steel-making.
  The second reason, perhaps the greater reason of the two, is competition from oil. The Government have taken the view that the coal industry has priced itself out of the market. I want to deal quite frankly with this suggestion. We have heard it said many times that the coal industry has priced itself out of the market and that is the reason that oil is in. It would be a mistake if we did not say something about that very important aspect of the matter today and also make it perfectly clear that we are not running away from this allegation which is wildly flung about, not just in the House but from platforms all over the country by Conservative candidates and others who say that the coal industry has priced itself out of the market and it is getting its just deserts because oil is coming in,
  How far is oil coming in? The other day, the advisory council to the petroleum industry issued its report. It showed that, this year, there has been an increase in fuel oil consumption in this country over last year of no less than 52·7 per cent.

  37
  It showed that there was a 25 per cent. increase in fuel oil consumption for steam raising in industry. It showed that the power stations which, in 1957, took 642,242 tons of oil took 2,635,431 tons of oil in 1958. It showed that the gas industry which, in 1957, took 455,514 tons of oil, took 665,094 tons of oil in 1958. This is the measure of the competition which the coal industry faces.
  Why has oil been so successful? Is it true that the coal industry has priced itself out of the market and opened the door for oil? I would remind the Committee that the nation, from 1940 onwards, has repeatedly—if I may use a colloquialism—torn the guts out of the coal industry. The nation, whatever the colour of the Government, has never said, "Produce only coal that is economic. Produce coal only if it is profitable to produce it". The nation has said, "Produce coal ", and week after week, month after month, and year after year, successive Ministers of Power have been constantly urging successive chairmen of the Coal Board to increase the tonnage of coal raised because it was necessary in the interests of the nation as a whole.
  I was surprised in a recent debate we had on a Motion moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Springs (Mr. Blyton) to hear the Parliamentary Secretary airily say that, of course, it never has been the case that coal came to the aid of oil; oil had come to the aid of coal. When this nation really needed oil, the oil was not available. The coal industry was compelled to go on raising coal at huge losses. No one in the oil industry ever, at any time, produced a barrel of oil and lost a penny piece on it. This idea of the Parliamentary Secretary that free competition between oil and coal is the way to have a fuel and power policy is a bit of airy-fairy nonsense. As a nation, we have demanded all the coal we could have.
  An indication of this is given by the number of pits which have been operated, but which have been uneconomically unsound. They still had to be worked, and if the Coal Board had refused to work them on the basis that, commercially, it was not worth working them, the Board would have had a direction from whoever was Minister of Power to compel it to work pits which were uneconomic. Since nationalisation, 250 pits have been
  38
  closed either through exhaustion or because they were hopelessly uneconomic. Despite that, 160 pits are still being worked by the Coal Board at which coal is being produced at a loss of £1 or over a ton. What private enterprise organization would keep 160 pits working knowing that on every ton produced it is losing £1? Only a publicly-owned enterprise could do that, because it is in the interests of the nation that they should do so.
  Of course, we want to get rid of those 160 pits. No one would deny that it is better to raise coal in pits where it is profitable. Vast sums of money have been invested in this industry to develop new pits and to enlarge others and to try to concentrate the production of coal on economic pits. But this all takes time. This is not like the oil industry, where there is overnight flexibility of refineries. This is an industry where flexibility is nothing like so rapid. Changes cannot be made in the coal industry as quickly as in the oil industry.
  I believe, therefore, that what is wrong with the industry today is mainly the refusal of the Government to take positive steps to assist it. The Government have based their whole fuel and power policy on the view that unrestricted competition and consumers' complete freedom of choice is the right approach to a sound fuel and power policy for the nation. That is a view which we cannot ever possibly accept.
  To abandon coal production because of the narrow cost margins as between coal and oil would be the height of folly and complete economic suicide for the nation. Let me give my reasons for saying this. First, it must not be forgotten that industrial investment in coal is over £500 million in this country—an average of £1,000 per man employed. Secondly, on top of that, there is the investment in the houses in the pit villages in the form of the welfare and social services and everything else that goes to make up village life.
  Thirdly, if we put more and more miners on the dole then we must meet the substantial costs which arise in unemployment pay and National Assistance. Fourthly, it must be remembered that private enterprise organisations receive orders to the value of nearly £200 million a year from the publicly-owned National Coal Board. If coal goes down, then

  39
  their orders go down. If the cumulative effects of reducing coal production are added together, a snowball of unemployment will be started which will give the Government and the rest of us a fairly serious headache.
  On the basis of the Government's complete freedom of choice of policy, if the cost of imported fuels were reduced 10 per cent. below that of coal we should close every pit in the country. If imported fuel costs were reduced by 10 per cent. below coal we would gain only a part of 1 per cent. of the finished goods that come from industry. If coal prices were 10 per cent. above imported fuel prices, then, following the logic of the Government's view, all the coalfields could be closed and the nation would gain less than 1 per cent. through the reduction of productive costs. That is absurd. It is nonsense even to contemplate it. But where do the Government stop in the contraction of the industry? They must stop at some point. If the Government do not stop, they will go right to the end, and I think that I have shown that it is manifestly absurd even to think of that.
  Coal must have its proper place in the national economy. The Government should state what that place is and we should organise around it. The Government have not failed to do that in other spheres. They tell the agricultural industry exactly what is required and they are prepared to pay millions of pounds year after year to maintain the place of agriculture in the national economy. The coal industry is just as important as the agricultural industry. It seems to me, therefore, that if the Government can put the agricultural industry in its right place, they should not run away from dealing with the coal industry and treating it in the same way.
  There are other very important reasons why the Government's policy should be enumerated: first, coal is indigenous; secondly, no one can take it from us; and, thirdly, no one can deny the means of access to it. That cannot be said about oil.
  I have shown that, far from the coal industry pricing itself out of the market, it has deliberately incurred enormous costs so as to be able to serve the nation. It was the right thing for the industry to
  40
  do. If the Coal Board had ever decided to run the production of coal on a purely commercial basis, then any Minister of Power would have had to give a direction to it to go on working uneconomic pits. Oil is coming into this country today at the pace which I have indicated. It is coming in at bargain prices because it has had a bar put on it in some European countries. Germany has put a turnover tax on imported oil to protect its own coal industry. Therefore, the refineries on the Continent have been turning to Britain and are dumping oil in this country where there is no restriction. Only one-quarter of the fuel oil being used in industry today is coming from refineries in the United Kingdom. Three-quarters of it is coming from refineries outside, and in the main from Continental refineries.
  Fuel oil consumption in Britain has risen in the five years from 1953 to 1958 by about 6·7 million tons. The fuel oil output of the United Kingdom refineries has risen by only 1·5 million tons. The remainder has been brought in from foreign refineries. The Continental refineries have surpluses of fuel oil because of the increased consumption and, therefore, production of gasoline and light oils. Fuel oil is being dumped in this country at prices per ton which are far below the price per ton of the crude oil from which it is made, and stands in no relation to any reasonable calculation of costs of production. If the demand for fuel oil rises faster than the demand for gasoline, then fuel oil prices will rise again. While crude oil is being refined, the light and fuel oils must be extracted. To keep these in balance, if there is a tremendous demand for gasoline and light oils, then a market must be found for the fuel oils. When the bar is applied, there is not the demand on the Continent. Then, over it comes to the United Kingdom, and the Government have done little or nothing about it.
  Our fuel policy should be based upon the first priority for the use of indigenous coal. The second priority should be to use the oil products from the United Kingdom refineries, and the third priority should be a reliance upon the oil products from the foreign refineries.
  What should we say about the coal industry? What is its place? After giving fair consideration to this question, those

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  in and around the coal trade have come to the conclusion that the right figure of production of deep-mined coal is about 200 million tons per annum. This is a figure which would give plenty of scope for expanding the oil industry and for expanding our nuclear energy programme. It was only in July last year that the Paymaster-General was telling us that it was estimated that in 1965 we should need about 300 million tons of coal equivalent, plus, perhaps, another 10 million tons for export. If that is about the size of our fuel programme, to say that solid fuel—coal—should be responsible for two-thirds of that programme is not asking too much.
  If 200 million tons is about the right amount, it is clear from the observations of the technical people in the industry that, given the time, they could gradually transfer the production of that 200 million tons of coal to the pits which are economic and to the new pits which are being developed and that around a figure of that kind we could build a sound, prosperous industry in which men would be secure in their jobs and into which young people and technicians would be attracted for a career.
  It is only the basis of having a figure at which to aim that the industry can organise itself in a rational way. In organising and planning, it must have the assistance of the Government, because they also have a responsibility for other nationalised industries which are big users of coal. Electricity and gas are two of them. If, therefore, 200 million tons is about the right figure for our annual production of coal, it must be based upon a complete co-ordination of the requirements of gas and electricity as the main buyers of coal, together with other industries which take substantial amounts.
  I am bothered about the gas industry, because it has never kept very much to the estimates of its coal requirements. I am bothered about the gas industry because it has spent too little time and money on researches into the gasification of coals other than that to which it is accustomed. In 1956, the gas industry was taking 27·8 million tons of coal. Today, the figure is 23·5 million tons. In two years, therefore, there has been a drop in the coal requirement of the gas industry of 4·3 million tons.
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  Two years ago, the gas industry's estimated requirement for the 1965 peak, to match the 300 million tons coal equivalent of which the Paymaster-General has told us, was 31 million tons of coal. Today, however, its estimated requirement for 1965 is, not 31 million tons, but 21 million tons. The reason is that the gas industry finds it easier and cheaper to bring in oil and to make gas from it.
  This illustrates the craziness of the whole structure and the lack of policy. At a time when the gas industry is spending a lot of money on the construction of plant to make gas from oil, there is lying in the coalfields of Durham about 700,000 tons of the best coking and gas coal in the world. These are the economics of a madhouse.
  Where lies the responsibility of the Minister of Power? His task, as laid down by Act of Parliament, is to coordinate the activities of the fuel and power industries, yet we are in danger of closing a large number of pits in Durham because gas coal is one of the coals which is extremely difficult to stock. The best gas coal in the world is lying there and the British gas industry is spending lots of money not only on building plant and importing oil, but in doing a tremendous job of research, and is spending much more money on importing liquefied methane.
  It is difficult to pick out the gas coal-producing pits from the others, but looking at the balance sheet of the Coal Board I reckon that about £70 million is invested in the Durham coalfields, designed to produce gas coal, 700,000 tons of which is lying on the ground. I cannot understand why any Minister who thinks in terms of a policy for the country can permit the gas industry to go on behaving in the way that it is.
  The latest thing that the gas industry is doing is the methane experiment. We on this side of the Committee have never been against research. We have not been against the idea of the methane experiment. What we are getting anxious about, however, is the cloak of secrecy that the gas industry has put over the whole experiment. Even Questions in the House are dodged by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power, who deals with three Questions at once but does not answer any of them.
  There is a good deal of secrecy about the methane experiment. All we know is that the Gas Council is linked up, either

  43
  as a company or in some other way—this information did not come from the Government benches, but from the trade papers—with an American company called the Constock International Methane Company. I would have thought that the object of American enterprise in having a company like that and linking up with a nationalised industry here in Britain was to sell methane. I do not really think that the Americans are so fond of us that they merely want to spend a lot of their money in giving us the advantage of research. Research comes first, but the real object is to sell methane.
  The Paymaster-General (Mr. Reginald Maudling)indicated assent.
  Mr. Robens: The Paymaster-General nods his agreement. That is good. Therefore, this physical link—and, probably, a financial link—between the Gas Council and this United States concern will have as its first principle the selling of as much liquid methane as possible to this country.
  We have built a small tanker and in a year it will be able to bring in liquefied methane to the equivalent of 40,000 tons of coal. I asked the Paymaster-General about the building of more tankers. It is not easy to get the information by way of Question and Answer in the House of Commons, but I got the impression from the right hon. Gentleman that there was at present no intention of building further tankers. My information, however—which does not come directly from either the Gas Council, or from the Government —is that plans are in view for the building of four tankers, totalling 32,000 tons, to ship the equivalent of about 13 million tons of coal in the farm of liquefied methane to these shores.
  That information has been published in American trade papers. I would believe that an American company associated with the gas industry here would be pressing hard to sell as much methane as possible. If gas made from methane is cheaper, there will be no concern as to who pays for the unemployed miner, about the desolation in the mining villages, or that there will be little or no difference to our industrial costs in the final analyses. What this means is that if only it can be proved that methane gas is slightly cheaper than that made from
  44
  coal, the free competition starts again and we shall buy the liquefied methane and make our gas from that. What I am told is that these tankers would be able to bring in a coal equivalent of 13 million tons. If that is true it means that the amount of gas coal that the Gas Council will want will be infinitesimal.
  As I say, I am not against experiments to see whether liquified methane can be used in the gas industry, but what I do say is that it requires planning and that that planning, and the planning required for the nuclear energy power stations which will affect coal, should be co-ordinated. It should be planned with the coal industry, so that the coal industry will know, if it is wished to contract the coal industry. The coal industry would be delighted if the Government would only state a figure. I am saying that the figure is 200 million tons, because I think that that is about right, and I understand that the technical experts think it is about right.
  I do not understand, therefore, why the Minister, whose function I always believed it to be, does not see the necessity of co-ordinating any diminution in the requirements of the gas industry, any expansion in the nuclear energy programme, any diminution in the requirements for coal elsewhere, so that any contraction in the mining industry may take place with the minimum dislocation. Since vesting day 250 pits have been closed without any upset in the mining areas. It can be done; but it requires time.
  So I say that the Government have failed, utterly and completely, to see that there is a problem here, and to realise that it is necessary to apply a remedy. The remedy does not mean keeping all oil out. It does not mean not having any liquid methane experiments. It does not mean not making some gas from oil. It does not mean not extending the nuclear programme as fast as we can do it. What it does mean is looking at the whole picture, considering the thing as a whole in a regular way and giving coal the premier place in our fuel policy. That is what it means.
  I think that I have said sufficient to demonstrate that there is a need for a fuel policy. We shall go on demanding this fuel policy, demanding a policy

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  which can give us a first-class coal industry with security for the people who work in it and for the nation in time of need, so that the country will not be dependent on the whims of either the boards or chairmen of the nationalised industries but will be dependent upon a sound fuel policy which gives coal its proper place in our fuel economy.
  4.13 p.m.
  The Paymaster-General (Mr. Reginald Maudling): The Socialist Party is always demanding a national fuel policy and implying that the Government have not got a fuel policy. Our policy has been stated on more than one occasion by my noble Friend the Minister of Power and can be restated quite simply. Our aim must be a cheap and abundant supply of fuel. Our policy is to obtain it by proper freedom of choice for the user and competition between suppliers, and to encourage co-operation between suppliers when this is economically justifiable.
  This has been said time and time again by my noble Friend. It may not be a policy which the party opposite likes, but it is a policy. Indeed, I think that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) said in a debate in February that he was inclined to agree with competition. Today, he was rather disagreeing with competition, though he was very chary about specifying the ways in which he would inhibit competition.
  The fact is that when the party opposite talks about the need for a national fuel policy it means one thing and one thing only—a new and special form of protection for deep-mined coal against its competitors. That may or may not be a good thing, and I should like to come to the arguments on it, but let us be quite clear that, every time the party opposite talks about the need for a national fuel policy, when it talks about the need for cutting down opencast production or the importation of oil or methane fuel, what all the time it is saying is that it wants a policy which will reduce the inroads which competition is now making on the deep-mined coal industry. That was the burden of the right hon. Gentleman's speech today. I think that that is the basis upon which we should examine the subject.
  What are the arguments the party opposite would adduce for this protection for deep-mined coal, for maintaining
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  for deep-mined coal the share in the national fuel economy which it regards as a proper share, and which, quite obviously, by admission, is a share which may not be maintained in current conditions of competition?
  Mr. Aneurin Bevan: What about agriculture?
  Mr. Maudling: I shall come to that. The right hon. Gentleman is an agriculturist, as well.
  Mr. Bevan: A very small agriculturist on a big point.
  Mr. Maudling: The right hon. Gentleman, I notice, is often out of scale.
  However, taking that argument of the party opposite, there are, I think, three arguments which the Opposition have used on it—the economic argument, the strategic argument, and the social argument. I should like to say a word or two about each.
  First, I do not think that the economic argument is at all well founded. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth talked again today about the large investment already made in this country in producing fuel. With respect, I think that that is a very out-of-date point of view. It appears to suggest that when we have invested large sums in producing energy in a certain form we should never produce energy in cheaper forms until that investment has been worn out. That seems to me to be the classic argument for industrial stagnation. [Interruption] If the party opposite is opposed to industrial stagnation why does it advance policies which will ensure it?
  The fact is that the right hon. Gentle. man's argument is rather like saying," We cannot buy a motor car for there is still life yet in the old horse." Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite are fond of attacking private enterprise for failing to replace worn-out plant or to make provision for replacing it when it is worn out, but surely this applies to public enterprise as well as private enterprise. In this case, we have stocks of capital equipment being disused and which, admittedly, are already extremely uneconomic.
  The second economic argument which the party opposite makes is that on balance of payments grounds it is better to use indigenous sources of fuel than

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  imported fuel and that it is more economic to use fuel and materials produced at home than to use imported materials. But one just cannot push this argument too far, because there are limits to which it is proper for this country to use expensive home-produced fuel and raw materials rather than to use cheap imported fuel and materials, when we have to compete in a market which uses cheap fuel and materials, when we have to compete in a market which uses cheap fuel and materials. [HON. MEMBERS: "Agriculture."] I shall come to the agricultural point later.
  It is really quite wrong to think that it would help our balance of payments to adopt a policy which keeps out cheap imports when we in this country rely for our entire livelihood on cheap exports. After all, one must not forget, in dealing with the oil industry, that our stake in the world-wide oil industry is, in fact, a very large net earner of foreign exchange for us. Therefore, we have an economic interest in its expansion.
  The second argument is the strategic argument. Here, there is a strong point to be taken, of the relative uncertainty, for political or other reasons, of much of our sources of oil supply. What I would say in answer to that is that we make provision against temporary interruptions, as we are doing by substantial stockpiling, in which the oil companies have been playing a large part. The fact is that our oil supplies have entered so far now into our economy, as they have into the economy of the whole of Western Europe, that it would be quite wrong to try to base economic policy on the assumption of any permanent interruption of our oil supplies, which, in any case, would be as much to the detriment of the oil producers as it would be to the detriment of us as consumers. We must make some temporary provisions, but we cannot base our policy on the permanent possibility of the total interruption of supplies.
  Finally, there is the social argument, to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred. We would agree with much of what he said, but this is not a question of maintaining permanently an industry of a given size, nor is it a matter of maintaining permanently a given level of employment within the industry. As the right hon. Gentleman himself said, many
  48
  pits have closed in recent years and pits will continue to be closed. If the right hon. Gentleman envisages the production of coal at the 200 million ton level, obviously, with growing efficiency, that amount will be produced with fewer and fewer men, so he himself is envisaging a reduction of employment in the industry. If, however, this decline is too fast, or too concentrated in certain areas, or adequate alternative employment is not available, the loss of social capital is a matter which the nation must take into account in determining its fuel policy.
  Those are the arguments of the Opposition in saying that they want a national fuel policy and that we have not got one. I think the right thing for us to examine today is what the Opposition says we should do that we are not already doing, because if they say that we are not doing what is right, we must see what is the alternative of hon. Gentlemen opposite. There has been mention of agriculture. Is it the proposition of the party opposite that we should subsidise coal mining in the same way as we subsidise agriculture?
  Mr. Robens indicated dissent.
  Mr. Maudling: In that case, would right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite stop referring to agriculture, because it is irrelevant?
  Mr. Robens: The right hon. Gentleman has got the point wrong. Agriculture was mentioned merely to indicate that the Government and the nation decided that agriculture had to play a specific part within the economy. To do that, it had to be heavily subsidised. We are not asking for heavy subsidies for the coal industry. We are merely saying that the same principle should operate and that the coal industry should be within the national economy.
  Mr. E. Shinwell rose—
  Mr. Maudling: One at a time.
  Mr. Shinwell: It is on the same point.
  Mr. Maudling: If it is on the same point, I can deal with it now.
  The argument is that the home production of the agricultural industry would fall below the level at which we wish to see it because it is facing the competition of cheap imported products. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, and the party opposite is saying that the same thing is

  49
  true of coal. Therefore, presumably hon. Gentlemen are saying that we should apply the same remedy. The remedy in the case of agriculture is that of large subsidies. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If hon. Gentlemen opposite are not saying that, they are saying nothing.
  Mr. Shinwell: Why does the right hon. Gentleman jib at a subsidy for the coal industry? Has he never heard of a Conservative Government subsidising an industry? Is he not aware that the Government are at present subsidising atomic energy?
  Mr. Maudling: I do not jib at anything. I was asking the party opposite what it was proposing. Hon. Members have referred to agriculture. I was asking them to take this to its logical conclusion; and I am hoping to show that it is illogical.
  Their next point is that the competition is not fair, that the coal industry can face fair competition but not unfair competition. The right hon. Gentleman said that in his speech on a Friday afternoon in February. There are two points there. First, he referred to the dumping of fuel oil. As I understand it, dumping means selling in this market below the price charged in the market of origin of the product. I have no evidence that this is happening, but if the right hon. Gentleman will send me such evidence I will look into it, although I should be surprised if it is so.
  Mr. Robens: Would the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to compel the oil industry to disclose the secret rebates it gives to consumers?
  Mr. Maudling: I am coming to rebates, if the right hon. Gentleman will leave that point for a moment.
  Mr. Robens: Secret ones.
  Mr. Maudling: I am coming to rebates. That point has been made in several debates; that by reason of statutes the coal industry has not the same freedom as the oil industry has to give rebates.
  That is a good point but, as I have said before, if the Coal Board, which is considering this matter, wishes to come to the Government and ask for further freedom in this matter, we will gladly consider anything it likes to put up to us. But it must be for the Coal Board to do
  50
  this. If it feels that it is commercially handicapped, it should come to the Government, as I am sure it will, and ask for our assistance. I can certainly say that any such suggestion it puts forward will be considered carefully, but until the Coal Board does this it is not possible to make a point on it.
  The third argument of the party opposite is that we should increase the total demand for fuel by increasing the total industrial output. I will not enter into this argument. I will only repeat that in his Budget my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave a stimulus to the economy which the party opposite has agreed is as large as is safe and wise at the moment. So I do not see how the party opposite could argue that it would do more.
  That brings us to the main burden of the Opposition's case, that something should be done to guarantee the position of the coal mining industry by restricting the use of other forms of fuel. This argument falls into two halves: the policy of the nationalised industries and the policy of the privately owned industries. As regards the nationalised industries the first argument normally is that there should be a further reduction in opencast coal mining. Here, we would support the attitude taken by the Coal Board, which has already, in this current year, substantially reduced the amount of opencast coal being produced, which has gone as far as it can do without breaking contracts, and has said that it will not place any further contracts for opencast coal beyond those to which it is already committed or beyond those necessary in the national interest for the production of certain special kinds of coal.
  Does the party opposite really wish the Government to order the Coal Board to break contracts? Quite apart from the question of the financial effect on the Coal Board of the loss of profitable coal and the payment of compensation, it would seem to me to be wrong to order a nationalised industry deliberately to break a contract entered into in good faith at a time when it suited that nationalised industry.
  Mr. William Hamilton: Was there not a contract between the Government and the N.U.M. some years ago to the effect that, in the event of

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  opencast coal being surplus to requirements, opencast mines would be closed rather than deep mines?
  Mr. Maudling: I have heard that said, but I have not found any evidence of any such contract. This year, opencast output is being cut by 25 per cent. and deep mined by only 1½ per cent., if as much as that, so I think that the main burden has been laid on opencast mining. The Government would not contemplate giving any direction to the Coal Board to break a commercial contract.
  The same thing applies to the use of oil in power stations. The history of this is simple. In 1955, when the electricity industry considered its future fuel requirements, it calculated that it would need 65 million tons of coal in the mid-1960s. At that time the Coal Board could not guarantee more than 53 million tons, so contracts were made for the supply of oil. Since then nuclear power has come on to the scene on a greater scale, and the coal position has eased considerably. As a result, in 1957, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, the first steps were taken to adjust the contracts for the supply of oil to the power stations and on two occasions adjustments have been made in the contracts.
  Here, it is right to pay a tribute to the oil and electricity industries for the cooperation with which they have acted. It would be wrong, however, once again, for any Government to instruct a nationalised industry to break a contract entered into in good faith and for its own benefit. People who enter into contracts, whether in private or public industry, should stand by them.
  Mr. Julian Snow: If that is so, why does not the right hon. Gentleman keep the contracts with the miners? Even up to 1957 contracts were being made with the mining industry for the employment of as many men as could be got, and within a few months the Government went back on the contracts.
  Mr. Maudling: If the hon. Gentleman can produce any evidence of broken contracts on the part of the Coal Board, I shall be glad to see it.
  Let us be clear about this. Does the party opposite want us to order the electricity industry to break the contracts?
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  If it does not want that order to be given, why raise the point? It is a dilemma. The fact is that as a result of the adjustments of the contracts—
  Mr. J. T. Price rose—
  The Temporary Chairman (Major Legge-Bourke): Order. May I suggest to hon. Members, with respect, that there are many hon. Members who wish to speak in the debate, and that the more interruptions we have, the fewer are the chances of hon. Members. Perhaps, therefore, they would allow the Minister to make his speech.
  Mr. Price: On a point of order, Major Legge-Bourke. May I draw your attention to the fact that as long as the right hon. Gentleman continues to ask rhetorical questions there will be plenty of hon. Members on this side of the Committee ready to give him straight answers to them?
  Mr. Maudling: I am told that my thirst for knowledge in these matters is great, but it has not been satisfied yet.
  Mr. Bevan: On a point of order, Major Legge-Bourke. Surely, every time the right hon. Gentleman asks a question we should regard it as purely rhetorical and it should be entirely ignored.
  Mr. Maudling: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman is an expert on when to answer and when to avoid questions. He does not need any guidance from me.
  The consumption of oil in the power stations has almost reached its peak and will reach it in 1960 and decline thereafter, whereas the consumption of coal in the power stations is likely to rise between 1958 and 1965 by about 10 million tons, coming to a total in 1965 of about 56 million tons, or more than the Coal Board thought it would be able to provide when the contracts were made in 1955. Thus, there will be a substantial expansion in the consumption of coal by the electricity generating industry. That is in spite of the substantial development of the nuclear programme.I am glad that the right hon. Member for Blyth did not suggest in any way that we should retard the nuclear programme.
  Finally on the question of the nationalised industries, I must say a word or two about the gas industry. What the

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  right hon. Gentleman said was a little misleading and in some ways unfair to the gas industry. Of the total thermal input of the gas industry last year, only 5 per cent. consisted of oil. I have been told that over many years it has been using 2 or 3 per cent. of oil for making water gas. Thus, the change last year was not a big one.
  However, there is a fundamental fact that we must get clear. The gas industry is having to compete very hard with a number of other sources of energy. If the gas industry cannot sell its products it will be of no use to the coal industry as an outlet for coal. It is in the interest of the coal industry that the gas industry should flourish, and it can flourish only if it is on an economic basis and if the price of gas can be competitive.
  In many cases this means making use of oil products, such as oil for making carburetted water gas when the coke market is weak, and oil for peak loading, for it is much more flexible than normal methods of making gas from coal, and the use of tail gas from refineries, which would otherwise be wasted. This is a good example of the enterprise of the gas industry in seeking every method of making gas cheaper. The whole Committee would wish to see gas made cheaper if possible.
  If there was a large fall in the gas industry's demand for coking coal, that would create a serious problem. For that reason my noble Friend has asked the Chairman of the Gas Council and the Chairman of the National Coal Board to make a joint study of the matter and report to him when they have done so. This is a matter in which close co-ordination between the two industries is required.
  On the point of liquid methane, the right hon. Gentleman was taking a rather strange attitude. He says that the Labour Party is not against experiments. But all we are doing at the moment is making experiments. What is the point of experiments if one is not to use the results if they are successful? The Opposition's view seems odd. What is wrong with the gas industry sharing a partnership with an American undertaking to carry out experiments? What is wrong with the consumers and producers of a new product carrying out a joint programme to
  54
  see whether it will be a success? Surely this is admirable and entirely satisfactory.
  The position, as I have endeavoured to explain to the right hon. Gentleman in answer to many Questions, is that there has been one experimental shipment, and there must be several more before we know enough about the technical or economic aspects of the matter to decide whether or not the gas industry shall be authorised to go ahead. I can give the answer to what the right hon. Gentleman mentioned about the building of tankers. In these matters the gas industry cannot go ahead with a substantial new capital outlay without the permission of my noble Friend. It has not asked for such permission and would not receive it until the full results of the experiments are known.
  In the meantime, it is odd that the Labour Party, which is so anxious to see our industry develop and which talks about the enterprise, initiative and new ideas of the nationalised industries, should be so carping and critical of a nationalised industry showing such remarkable enterprise.
  In what the Labour Party has put forward on the subject of the nationalised industries, I cannot see any possible suggestion for a new national fuel policy. The Labour Party is not asking us to ask the nationalised industries to break contracts, it is not asking us to cut down the nuclear power programme, and it is not asking us to stop the experiments with liquid methane. It is not asking us to do anything that we are not doing now.
  I now turn to private industry. If the Labour Party thinks that private industry is turning too rapidly to oil rather than coal, what is it going to do about it? There are only two things that one can do. One can issue a direction to people not to use oil, or one can put a tax on oil. In an earlier debate, the right hon. Member for Blyth declared that he is not in favour of issuing directions to people to use gas, coal or any particular form of fuel. I take it that the Labour Party does not intend to issue any form of directions about the use of competing forms of fuel. Does it propose to put a tax on fuel oil?
  It is appropriate Ito ask these questions. The Labour Party keeps saying that there should be a national fuel policy, but never says what it should be. I want to know

  55
  What it should be, and I want to examine the implications of some of the questions which float across the Floor. Do hon. Gentlemen opposite propose to put a tax on fuel oil? The right hon. Gentleman referred to the action of the German Government, implying that if we were as enterprising we should put a tax on imported fuel oil.
  Mr. Robens: I referred to the tax on the German oil as an indication that the German Government were keeping fuel oil out and that fuel oil was coming here at bargain prices, being dumped.
  Mr. Maudling: Does the right hon. Gentleman want us to keep out fuel oil by import quotas or imposing a tax? I do not think that the Labour Party would support either step, for hon. Members opposite realise that the consequences would be far too unpleasant for them to follow the suggestion through. We cannot impose quotas by reason of our international obligations. I should have thought that a duty designed for the protection of coal would probably also be contrary to our international obligations. I am sure that it is so politically unattractive that the Labour Party would never dream of proposing it.
  Therefore, we come to the fact that we have had a constant demand for a national fuel policy but not one single coherent suggestion from the Labour Party as to how that policy should be in any way different from the policy that we are at present pursuing.
  I will quote what the right hon. Gentleman said on 6th February as a good example of the muddle into which the Opposition have got themselves:
  "I do not want to direct people to use gas, electricity, solid fuel or oil, but I do want to see a fuel and power policy based on the use of the maximum amount of coal that can be mined."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th February, 1959; Vol. 599, c. 806.]
  Surely the point is how much can be sold. If all the coal that can be mined can be sold, there is no problem. If it cannot be sold and the right hon. Gentleman will not direct anyone to use it, what is he going to do with it? It seems to me that, as in so many of these economic problems, the Labour Party has no policy whatsoever, and has lapsed into a welter of empty promises and discordant arguments.
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  I now turn to the Government's view on these matters; first, the long-term future of the coal industry; and, secondly, the short-term future. As the right hon. Gentleman said, I gave some figures in the House, two years ago, of the Government's estimate of the likely consumption of fuel in this country in 1965. We then thought it should be a coal equivalent of about 300 million tons. I see no reason why we should depart from that estimate. As I said last December, whether we achieve it in 1965 or later depends on the speed of the industrial upturn, which is only now slowly beginning. [Interruption]. If I am interrupted I shall take more time, and I dare say that right hon. Gentlemen opposite would not enjoy that very much. The upturn is slowly beginning, and that is why the Chancellor in his Budget decided to speed it up, with the agreement of the Labour Party.
  It seems to me that 300 million tons of coal equivalent is still a reasonable figure to assume for the mid-1960's. The question is what proportion of this will be taken by the coal industry. We would all agree that the proportion that coal is likely to take seems now to be less than we should have thought two years ago. I thought that, on the whole, the right hon. Gentleman was a little too gloomy. He seems to be thinking in terms of a decline from the present coal output of roughly 200 million tons a year and saying that we could take steps to avoid a further decline. I would have thought that we should think rather in terms of how much the coal industry can increase on its current level of output. That will surely depend on the competitive position of coal.
  Looking at the outlets for coal, there are two very big users where there is not the same degree of competition. The use of coal in the power stations will rise very considerably between now and the mid-1960s and the consumption of coal in the coke ovens is also certain to rise substantially by the mid-1960s. These two items will account for about 100 million tons of coal by then. For the rest, there is bound to be considerable competition between coal, oil and other forms of fuel, and the effectiveness of the competition of coal must depend on the efficiency of the industry and the level of costs. That is very much realised by the Coal Board, which deserves the support of right hon. and hon. Members in the

  57
  efforts that it is making to concentrate on efficiency and lowering costs.
  In recent months, for the first time for many years, the cost of coal production has been falling, not rising. That is rather an important fact. With the continuation of rising productivity and the elimination of the very uneconomic mines, which otherwise are an extremely heavy burden on the shoulders of the Coal Board—with both these processes continuing—surely we can look to an improvement in the competitive position of the coal industry, which should be able to carve out for itself a larger total demand from what will be an expanding market for energy in this country. In the meantime, it is important to continue pressing ahead with research and development into all other methods of using fuel.
  I think that the right hon. Gentleman was a little unfair to the gas industry when he implied that it had been backward in its research into gasification of non-coking coals. I do not think that that is true. A lot of work has been done by the gas industry on Lurgi plants and other methods and I think that industry is entitled to credit for what it has been doing. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the Government are fully aware of the need to develop every possible use of general purpose coals, whether for total gasification, or chemical derivatives, or the extraction of oil from coal, all of which has been emphasised by the appointment by my noble Friend of a committee under Mr. A. H. Wilson, which, I am sure, will make a very big contribution to these matters. I think that the right hon. Gentleman was rather sceptical about the appointment of this committee.
  Mr. Shinwell: For the last forty years we have been engaged in research on the production of by-products from indigenous coal. At last, in 1959, the Government have decided to set up a research committee into the uses to which the coal can be put.
  Mr. Maudling: The right hon. Gentleman seems to assume that the Ministry of Power ground to a halt when he ceased to be Minister of Fuel and Power, I always thought that his famous statement about everyone knowing that there would be a fuel shortage except the Minister of Fuel and Power was his epitaph on the subject of power. Certainly, there will
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  be no disagreement on either side of the Committee as to the importance of pushing ahead with all possible alternative uses of coal, particularly of those grades of coal which are likely to be in very large supply. That is our view on the long-term position.
  I will say a few words about the short-term position. The Coal Board expected the demand in 1959 to be about 200 million tons and that production would be about 209 million tons. It decided to deal with it by reducing opencast output by 3 million tons, by reducing deep-mined coal output by 3 million tons and by stocking three million tons. In fact, production has been running well but exports have been disappointing and it looks at if the amount to be put to stock will have to be larger than the estimate of 3 million tons.
  The intention of the National Coal Board is to stock these additional amounts. I understand that the Coal Board does not intend to propose this year any further so-called economic closures. It has decided that it will have to increase the amount put to stock. I think that there is general agreement with that. However, in the long run, there must be some limit financially and physically to the amount of coal that can be put to stock. The closures that have been made so far have been carried out well with extraordinary co-operation between all concerned, including particularly the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers, and the proportion of men declared redundant who have been placed again is larger than we expected. That is particularly true in Scotland. We are all very glad to know this.
  I do not think that there can be any doubt that the National Coal Board took the right steps this year in deciding to have a substantial cut back in opencast and to close some of the most uneconomic mines coming towards the end of their life, and to put a substantial amount of coal to stock. I think that it will be generally agreed that the National Coal Board is right, if necessary, to put more to stock this year than the 3 million tons that it had in mind. The fact is that we must not be panicked in any way by short-term situations. We must not, because coal has been piling up in this country, assume that the coal industry is facing immediate disaster.

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  The fact is that in the community of the Six the coal stocks piling up at the pitheads are proportionately larger than in this country. That is a general condition, largely resulting from a slackening in the growth of production throughout Western Europe. [An HON. MEMBER: "Stagnation everywhere."] We are usually accused of being the only stagnators. The hon. Gentleman must consult the league tables about the others.
  The fact is that we must not be misled by the temporary large stocks that we have. They are a great problem both physically and financially, but a sharp upturn in industrial activity in this country and throughout Western Europe could soon make those stocks diminish; and any panic measures which led to excessive closure of pits or to the cutting down of the capacity of the industry below what we might need in the future would be very unwise.
  I conclude on these lines, that the coal industry has been facing and is facing great difficulties. The Coal Board is undoubtedly taking the right steps by concentrating on efficiency and lower costs by revising its investment policies. It is only by efficiency and lower costs that the industry can maintain its position. If members of the party opposite try to pretend that there is some way other than efficiency and lower costs by which the coal industry can maintain its position, they utterly fail in everything they say.
  5.0 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Woof: After listening to the Paymaster-General, I would certainly say that it should not be denied that the paramount duty of the Government, in being the ultimate guardian of the public interest, is, by any intervention affecting the running of a nationalised industry, to have a greater influence, whether for good or for ill.
  By measuring the march of events, there are some aspects of the economic landscape in the mining industry's problems which seemed to be getting pushed further away from any chance of a response from the Government with a rational fuel policy. It should be quite clear that the basic principles underlying the property relation between the Government and the nationalised mining industry
  60
  ought to be one where complete honesty, each with the other, and free from antagonism, should be the prime function.
  That is especially the case when it has been argued from the benches opposite that it is right for the Coal Board to concentrate on reducing output without reducing the efficient capacity for longterm production—with more concentration on costs in the context of new developments which are now taking place. That is precisely the argument which the Paymaster-General used on 3rd December last year, when we discussed the Coal Board's borrowing powers. Today he has said that the Government have a fuel policy.
  One wonders exactly what credit the Government claim for having done everything to encourage and stimulate the Coal Board's drive for efficiency without irreparable harm to long-term production. Taking a sober view of the extreme gravity of the present situation, I suppose that the first casualty in any war or crisis, military, political or economic, will be the truth. In all the frustration, disillusionment and bewilderment created by a series of events, bow do we ascertain the truth from the indifference or inaction of the Government?
  One of the laws of motion is that at every action produces an equal and opposite reaction. Many of us on this side of the Committee are familiar with strikes and lock-outs and all the complex feelings about "Black Fridays" and "Red Fridays" in compelling workers to surrender—because they end up with a terrible debt which has to be paid by good, honest, hard-working men, harassed with family cares, outlawed and practically driven to starvation for the ideals and moral principles for which they were prepared to fight.
  Nowadays, one does not need to have an industrial or college education to see that property relations have undergone a transformation. However, with this change, in search of a redefinition, in attempting to find a key feature in the Coal Board's dilemma, I must also say that the whole technique has been changed from that of lock-outs and compelling workers to bend and yield, to demands of such immense force and pernicious influence that it is part of a wider calamity in which objectives are

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  being achieved through a very subtle method.
  The inescapable facts of strongly competitive elements—and the competition will no doubt continue and probably intensify—exemplify the external and internal aspects of the Board's economic position in its efforts to sell coal within its present narrow and limited market.
  How can the Board compete against oil companies which have captured markets traditionally supplied by coal, especially when the price of coal, as we all know, has been grossly inflated by heavy financial responsibilities which have put the Board, bridled and saddled with the actual operational costs, under a very severe handicap in its competition with oil companies?
  This chain of events has not come about of its own accord and it is fitting to use figures to compare increases in consumption of coal and oil. All the figures quoted by the Paymaster-General today only showed the galloping consumption of the mining industry. The solid feature of the facts themselves, even from an outward appearance, reflects the scale of economic activities in the business life of the Board and the oil companies. The size and timing of the pattern of behaviour by the Government in their failure to provide a general fuel policy to mark the trend towards limitation of this competition have created more widespread alarm.
  With such an advanced standard of output, never before attained in the mining industry, what is the clue to the present distress of the Coal Board? It cannot be one of destruction or failure in production or in resources. Is the Board to be driven to the wall in a fight in which it will be hard to save it from being crushed out of existence?
  If it were a question of nature's resources failing us and of technical skill being inadequate, we should have no alternative but to endure. Surely the Board must have a goal towards which to be guided beyond this distressing path. What is intended to be the next step? Without any perspective or angle of vision from the Government, without any planning direction guiding it, how can the National Coal Board prevent disastrous dislocations and damage to safeguards to the public interest against monopoly abuses?
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  The right hon. Gentleman told us that we had nothing to fear from the new discovery of important natural gas deposits. He has said that before. He said that nothing could be done without the permission of the Government. He disputed some of the figures given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens). Fears of the known and of the unknown have been with us for a long time. There is no doubt about the general direction which is set by the big international oil companies which will make the next move.
  The recent successful transportation of methane gas from the oilfield may well have extremely serious and important repercussions in reversing the demand for coal still further. It is my habit to look at a journal, the Voice of Industry, in the Library. I was interested to read an article in last month's issue of the magazine on the importance of methane gas. After immense technical difficulties have been overcome, we are now given to understand that one tanker of 30,000 tons, carrying this gas in liquid form ready to discharge into the gas mains without much effort, will be equivalent to 2 million tons of coal a year, and that ten tankers of this class will be more than necessary to meet the entire needs of the whole output of the British gas industry.
  How can greater efficiency in the mining industry be exercised against this kind of competition? My right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth mentioned the position of the industry in the County of Durham when dealing with production for the gas industry. Those of us who have worked in Durham know a good deal about the coal industry there. There are approximately fifty pits that produce the type of coal needed for the gas industry, and I am not talking about pits which are on the decline or on the road out. Many of these pits are of long life and possess hugh reserves. In the daily task of restoring production and increasing efficiency the National Coal Board has spent millions of pounds.
  What is the position now? The Paymaster-General said that the commercial exploiters of methane gas would have to get permission from his right hon. Friend. If they do get that permission, it will have repercussions in Durham County, and not only on the mining industry in the county. Everything attendant on the

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  production of coal will be affected. Surely, from the economics of the position, no wise Government would allow the sacrifice of such a great expenditure of public money in a public going concern.
  In previous debates I dealt with the economic and social conditions affected by closures. In the debate on 18th March I referred to the closures as a "black death" and I meant what I said. The black plague of 1348 was extremely destructive of life by a mysterious disease. Today we are very proud that there is much to be boasted about in this enlightened and progressive age, but there can be no mystery about the industrial death to coal mining. My right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth gave some figures for coal production, but the latest figures show that there are 2¾ tons of unsold coal on the ground in Durham County. The Coal Board gave as the reason for closing thirty-six uneconomic pits the necessity for reducing output by 3 million tons. When the time comes to reduce output from 20 million tons to 30 million tons, the closures will be catastrophic and unprecedented in the history of British coal mining. It is not necessary for me to enlarge on the anxieties of whole communities caused by insecurities due to industrial change.
  I was also interested in the reiteration by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth of what the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Power said about schoolchildren on 14th July last year during the debate on the Report from the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries. The Parliamentary Secretary was probably speaking with all sincerity and vision, but surely, by the events which have overtaken us, he has been caught within the net of his own words. Can any hon. Member of this Committee, with his hand on his heart, say that he is prepared to advise adolescents to enter the mining industry? I am not advocating the sending of young lads into the mining industry to work hard in this scientific age. Would anybody advise a university student to take up mining as a career in this country? It would be the last job I would tell a student to go to do because the future, as far as we can see it, is far from encouraging.
  Mr. Shinwell: The hon. Gentleman will not be there.
  Mr. Woof: I know that, but if the present tangled state of affairs is allowed to drift and things are left vague and undefined and if tendencies in this critical period are not changed, the situation may become much more grim unless the Government are prepared to exercise responsibility with a course of action that will place the industry above the dependence on cupidity, and say exactly what they require from the National Coal Board. Or, to be more forthcoming, the Government should say whether they intend the Board to be like a ball of clay in the potter's hand to be moulded and shaped into an insignificant industrial asset.
  5.8 p.m.
  Sir Peter Roberts: The hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. Woof) put the case for the mining industry in Durham as we expect him to do, but I think he rather exaggerated the position. He took too gloomy a view of the future, but that is the sort of speech we have learned to listen to from hon. Members opposite. I was delighted with the speech of my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General. He dealt with the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) extremely well. I felt that each rhetorical question that he asked, although there were a number of replies, took one more argument away from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Blyth until he was left with very little on which to base a case.
  My only criticism of my right hon. Friend's speech is that he was a little too complacent. I should like to draw his attention and that of the Committee to one or two points.
  I wish first to say something about opencast coal. We have heard a great deal about opencast coal mining recently and a lot about the attitude of the mineworkers' union. I wish to mention some of the advantages of opencast mining. As my right hon. Friend has said, it is profitable. The £9 million profit made by opencast mining last year covered the whole of the losses in the North-Western division, amounting to £5 million; the whole of the losses in the Durham area amounting to £1½ million, and the whole of the £3 million loss in Wales. All those coalfields were, so to speak, subsidised by opencast mining. The wages would not have been there but for the profits made

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  in opencast mining. Those in the industry must realise the extent of the contribution made to the National Coal Board by opencast mining.
  We cannot continually go against modern progress. It is interesting to consider what has been happening in Germany and America. I agree that the coal fields are different but the figures are still interesting. In 1880, 20 per cent. of the German brown coal was opencast. By 1937 92½ per cent. was opencast. Now it is all opencast. In the United States in 1937, 40 million Ions of bituminous and anthracite coals were produced by opencast mining and today the figure is 160 million tons. The coal is becoming cheaper and it is this coal which is coming over to compete with our coal on the Continent of Europe. The figure for the United Kingdom, at I believe 6 million, represents 3 per cent. We cannot ignore these figures nor the production methods used overseas.
  I wish to reiterate something of which hon. Members are aware. The value of the coal won by opencast mining is ten times the amount of the agricultural produce which could be derived from the same land for the five years during which that land might be out of commission for agricultural purposes while the opencast mining is going on. It is sometimes claimed that opencast mining is bad for agriculture because of the effect upon the land. I believe that attitude of mind to be out-dated. In many cases the land is actually improved as a result of opencast mining.
  In 1957, writing in the South Yorkshire Times, Mr. Hoyle, a farmer, said it was all "bunkum" about the land being no good when it was restored. He referred to the amount of wheat and grass which had been grown on the land after opencast coal mining had taken place. In the Western Mail the same sort of thing was stated by a Mr. Williams. I think that the bad name given to opencast mining is a result of bad compensation given in the past when farmers and owners and their neighbours had to give up amenities and other advantages, for which they received an uneconomic compensation. Under the new legislation the Coal Board has power to do better by way of compensation than in the past.
  In America, for instance, people welcome the finding of oil on their ground,
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  even though the oil derricks may go up outside their front window, because the profits are available. The same thing could happen in this country with the coal industry.
  Mr. Bevan: How long do those people who make their money out of oil stay in the house gazing at the derricks?
  Sir P. Roberts: In Canada the oil does not belong to the man on whose land it is found. The man would still have to live on his farm even with the oil derricks there. But he gets compensation at a rate which makes it worth while, and the same thing could happen in this country regarding coal. The redundancy problem is as great over opencast as over deep mining.
  Mr. Bevan: No.
  Sir P. Roberts: People who may be regarded as representatives of the mineworkers' union may not agree, but there must be hon. Members who represent other unions and who have met this case many times before.
  The financial problems of the industry have been relieved to some event by the money brought in from opencast mining. As I see it, the present difficulty is that of stocks. My right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General said that he did not wish to be panicked by the stock position. The present figures are 20 million to 21 million tons undistributed and 15 million distributed.
  The position regarding coal stocking is not the same as that of manufactured goods. I was always given to understand —I am sure that many hon. Members will agree—that the best way to stock coal is to leave it in the seam. If it is brought to the surface, the coal deteriorates and there are the expenses of stocking and handling it. It is not economic to have large stocks of coal and I do not think we should face the present position with equanimity. Action must be taken to reduce some of our stocks. I believe that the sight of large stocks of coal on the surface is depressing to the mineworkers.
  Mr. William Blyton: Surely the outlook is the same regarding opencast. There is as much opencast coal on the ground as there is deep-mined coal.
  Sir P. Roberts: Yes, I am now dealing with the whole problem. Opencast mining can help the industry and will not worsen the position. The whole question of getting rid of stocks is something which must be dealt with, because coal stocks impede progress in the industry and tend to reduce production.
  What action can we take? I have tried to indicate the difficulty as I see it. We have asked what policy may be adopted. There might be a tax, or some form of import duty on oil but, as no such solution has been advanced, I wish to suggest one or two ways in which the position might be improved. I raised the question of exports two years ago and again last year and I wish to refer to it again today. Unless we can get back into the export market with long-term contracts, even, if necessary at slightly reduced prices because we have to make a start, the position will get more and more difficult. In May, 1958, during a debate on coal exports, I pressed the Parliamentary Secretary, as I am pressing him today, to do something about getting the export market going again. He took very little notice of what I said on that occasion. My hon. Friend said:
  "Unless production increases, and unless we can be sure that it will increase over a series of years ahead, it is quite impossible, it would be almost dishonest, for the Government or the Coal Board to make the kind of statement for which my hon. Friend asks, because, production being stable, we shall either not be able to sell coal for lack of a market, or we shall need it at home."—[OFFKIAL REPORT, 14th May, 1958; Vol. 588, c. 5741
  That was a year ago. The position is worse now than it was then. We need exports. It is wrong for the Government to say that we need not do anything because we shall need the coal. This is a matter of basic importance. We need at least a 10 per cent. coal export, which would be something like 20 million tons under the target. It should be on a long-term contract basis and there should be continuity of supply. The sooner we get on with it the better. It is more difficult to do it today than it was a year ago and it will be more difficult in a year's time if the Minister does not do anything about it now.
  I turn to home consumption. My right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General gave his views about oil. I supported the present Minister of Education when he
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  was Minister of Fuel and Power and when he made a move towards oil. In spite of all the arguments, it is clear that that move has gone far enough. I do not think that we should do anything that would discourage oil; I am not suggesting that we should prevent imports. We should help to make coal and coal derivatives more competitive. That point did not arise in the speech of the right hon. Member for Blyth. He has his difficulties but he should have suggested making coal more competitive.
  It means that we should have to reconsider the coal-price structure. The right hon. Gentleman said that he was going to deal with the question of whether the Coal Board was pricing itself out of the market. I got my notebook ready to put down the arguments, and I waited and waited. Quite frankly, the arguments did not come. Nevertheless, unless the National Coal Board can make itself competitive, particularly in world markets, the present position will not get any better.
  We come to the old question of power stations. I was delighted to hear that the target of 56 million tons of coal for 1965 was still in the Minister's mind. I thought he might have reduced that somewhat but he has not done so. Incidentally, he has not revised his ideas about the increased use of coke. On the subject of oil fuel in power stations. I agree that the power stations should not break contracts. The question I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to answer at the end of the debate is, how many more power stations are envisaged to be constructed in the next five years and how many of them are for oil fuel? We know that at great expense two power stations have been turned back from oil to coal.
  Would the Minister consider making dual-purpose power stations for either kind of fuel? Once we build great power stations to burn oil only it is extremely difficult to turn them back to coal. The decision on this matter must be made now Once a power station is built we have committed ourselves to a particular type of fuel, perhaps for the next fifteen years. We must therefore have an answer to this question. I should like to be satisfied that dual-purpose power stations to use coal or oil are planned by the Electricity Board.
  My second point concerns users of coal. The first of them I will mention is the

  69
  railways. We see great diesel engines thundering along the rails. What plans have the Government for increasing the electrification of the railways? Capital expenditure of that kind, although costly, can produce economic results. It would be cheaper to turn coal into electricity and to use it on the railways than to import oil. I am not advocating taxation or restriction of oil imports, but making coal more competitive.
  The gas industry is one of our most up-and-coming industries, both for heating boilers and furnaces and for by-products such as smokeless fuel, chemicals and complete gasification of coal. The gas industry is one of the greatest customers of the National Coal Board but one of the difficulties is price. The Gas Board has been handicapped by the National Coal Board in having to pay more for its coal than does the Central Electricity Authority or the domestic consumer. The result is that it has been difficult for gas to compete with oil.
  Let us look at the picture. In 1939, the price of coal to electricity undertakings was 19s. 4d. per ton, to gas undertakings 22s. 7d. and to the domestic consumer 43s. 2d. I have worked out the equivalent figures for 1957, which are the latest I could get. They should be, on the pre-war structure, electricity boards, 81s.; the Gas Council, 95s.; and domestic consumers, 180s. While electricity boards actually get their coal at 81s. gas boards have to pay not 95s. but 109s. and the domestic consumer pays, not 180s. but only 142s. We see that the price structure is weighted against gas.
  As the result of policy on both sides of the Committee, the domestic consumer has been let off 40s. of the price he should he paying on the pre-war comparison, while the gas industry is paying more than the pre-war equivalent. That is one of the reasons why gas cannot compete with oil. I would ask whether it is not possible under the present price structure to get the price of coal to gas boards brought down.
  I will leave aside the topics on which I next intended to speak, which included overseas commitments, Suez, and farms. Arguments have already gone across this Committee on those questions. I believe that we have a national commitment in our own raw materials in this country and that it is the duty of whatever Government there may be to foster our coal
  70
  industry rather than to put ourselves at he mercy of and at the whim of gentlemen in the Middle East, the Caribbean, or the Sahara.
  Let me summarise what I have so far said. We must start immediately a real export drive, a task which will be harder than it was a year ago and even harder than two years ago. There must be a target of 10 per cent. of our production for export. Opencast coal, which is cheaper to produce, might be put into that market rather than cutting out the mining of opencast coal altogether. Let it be exported and bring in import money. We must give a boost to the gas industry to make it more competitive with oil. We must not cut back opencast any further. I have a certain interest in this matter which I will declare to the Committee although it is a minor interest. I know something about the machinery for opencast working. I believe that opencast working is an economic way of coal recovery.
  There is the question of the mining fraternity. One cannot face this issue without looking at the position of the National Union of Mineworkers. The union makes its case here, and usually does so very forcefully. Nevertheless I will put certain facts to it. I noted that nationalisation came in for a few hard words from the right hon. Member for Blyth. The Gas Board, the Central Electricity Authority and even the National Coal Board seemed to need instruction from higher up according to him. Nevertheless, nationalisation puts more and more power into the hands of the trade unions concerned. I am not saying that that is a bad thing. So long as the leadership is imaginative, it is an advantage to the country. If that leadership is merely to push up wages and costs until the price of coal becomes uneconomic, the result will be disastrous.
  We have to compete with oil, which is on an international basis. We have to compete with the coal which comes from America and Germany. Those are the conditions which control the price at which we can sell our coal. We must have regard to the enormous outside competition to this industry.
  The wages structure in the mining industry can be pushed too far. I believe we have got to the limit now. I do not advocate trying to reduce wages. Some hon. Members may remember 1926 too

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  well. The only hope of increased wages in the mining industry must now come from increased efficiency in the Coal Board itself. There is room for that. All I am saying is that we have got to the limit. If we go further we shall see the British mineworker out of work. That will not be due to Government policy or slumps outside, but merely because coal has become too expensive—and the great element in the cost of coal is the amount of wages paid. The unions must look to the economic pits.
  I come back to the crux of what I want to say about uneconomic pits. Stable employment in this industry can come only from good wages in good pits. I do not believe it can be sustained by problematical wages in inefficient pits. If we face the fact that only by cutting out losses can we deal with the problem, we come to the question of redundancy. I sat with great admiration the other day listening to the right hon. Member for Blyth making a magnificent speech in the debate on youth employment problems. I should be out of order, I believe if I were to read a passage from that speech, because it was made so recently, but I might be permitted to paraphrase what he said. [HON. MEMBERS: "The hon. Member can read it."] If I am to have that protection, I shall read the quotation. The right hon. Member said:
  "When I read of the closures of pits, when I see contraction on the railways and in other industries, I wonder what is to happen to the man of 45 who loses his job, if only on the basis of redundancy. There is not another job as a railwayman or as a coalminer for him. Why should he not be given the right to take a three-years' apprenticeship, become a skilled worker, and start again on decent pay? … Is it not the best thing for the man himself, rather than that he should turn from being a skilled coal miner or skilled railwayman and become an unskilled labourer?—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, 30th April, 1959; Vol. 604, c. 1484.1
  I believe that is the right approach to this problem. As a country we cannot go on supporting inefficient industries and trying to pay wages in an industry which cannot support them. We must see, the Government must see, if together we can work out a plan of rehabilitation. It is rehabilitation, not stagnation, that we want.
  At present we have near-full employment. We must be flexible and prepared to change jobs. The trade unions in the United States of America have already
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  faced this problem. The union leaders say, "If it is necessary to have fewer men in the unions to get better wages, let us have that." That is a better way of approaching the problem. If the suggestions I have put to the Committee are not taken up quickly, I believe four things will happen. First, there will be more and more trouble in the coal fields as, over and over again, we face the question of closing pits. Secondy, the impetus of the industry itself will flag under the large stocks of coal accumulated. If that happens the money from the consumer of coal will go overseas and investment will go over as well. Lastly, we shall find oil becoming predominant.
  I should like my noble Friend the Minister to call a conference, not only of his Parliamentary advisers on this side of the Committee, but of hon. and right hon. Members opposite if they would be prepared to join in also. That would be an excellent idea. I should call in the chairmen of the Coal Board, the British Electricity Authority, and the Gas Council together, with the leaders of the Mineworkers Union and other unions concerned, to see if we can work out a plan for the next five to ten years to deal with the whole problem of making the industry economic. The longer we put off this task the more difficult it will be to deal with. Such an idea should be considered by my noble Friend. I hope he will consider it to be a reasonable one.
  5.25 p.m.
  Mr. E. Shinwell: The hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Sir P. Roberts) made an interesting and well-documented speech. In that speech he proved to be much more progressive than the Paymaster-General, the Minister of Power and the Government. That, of course, is not surprising. It was obvious from the speech of the Paymaster-General that not only is he complacent, as the hon. Member observed, but that he fails completely to understand, not the economics, but the social intricacies of the problem which faces us in the proposed contraction of the mining industry.
  The hon. Member for Heeley suggested in his summary that the Government might convene a conference consisting of the representatives of the three fuel and power industries and the unions concerned, but the responsibility

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  does not rest on the representative of the nationalised industries, nor on the trade unions. The responsibility clearly rests on the Government. It is the Government we are interrogating this afternoon. On the question of a conference, which obviously would be designed to effect some measure of agreement and, presumably, co-ordination, hon. Members on this side of the Committee are in complete accord. We have for long advocated some measure of co-ordination. Perhaps I might be permitted to develop the theme which has been voiced on several occasions in previous debates.
  Before doing so, I want to express my opinion about the speech delivered by the Paymaster-General. We had a succession of petty, debating points and, of course, several oratorical outbursts. I hope he will forgive me for saying so and, naturally, I mean no offence, but it was reminiscent of the kind of speeches I have heard on occasion when attending debates at the Oxford Union and other university union societies. That, no doubt, is where he received his oratorical education, but he must not impose it upon us. We have got beyond that sort of thing. At any rate, we expect some measure of wisdom from members of the Government. On so grave a matter as the present condition of the coal industry and its future one is entitled to expect more from a representative of the Government —and a representative undoubtedly with considerable ability. We had hoped for a more constructive approach, setting aside all the repartee and rhetoric.
  The right hon. Gentleman asked several questions of this side of the Committee. My first observation is that we often ask the Government questions, and I am bound to say we get a lot of silly answers, but no doubt the right hon. Gentleman expected rather more from us than we receive from them. We have an answer to his questions. Stripped of all the verbiage and the fallacies, the right hon. Gentleman's speech amounted to this question: do the Opposition agree with the Government that there must be fair competition within the fuel and power industries? We understand that the Tory Party believe in competition—indeed ruthless competition. They thrived on the advocacy of competition for a long time, but many people have suffered in consequence of competition, and if competition proceeds apace, fortified by the
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  ruthless character suggested by the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends, I am afraid that there is a very gloomy outlook for the coal industry. I go beyond that. It may have very grave repercussions on the electricity and gas industries.
  The right hon. Gentleman asked whether we wished to protect the coal industry and what form of protection we advocated. I do not wish to indulge in debating points, but may I suggest that a large measure of protection has been afforded by this Government to the oil industry? I wonder what it has cost the taxpayers of this country over the last dozen years to assure protection for the British Petroleum Company, the Shell Oil Company and the others? In military expenditure alone it must have amounted to many hundreds of millions of £s. It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman, in that la-di-da fashion which is characteristic of him, to ask us whether we want to protect the oil industry, but they are protecting agriculture—I do not make a song and dance about that—and the oil industry. What was the Suez affair about? And all the trouble we have had in the Aden Protectorate? Why are we concerned about the Bagdad Pact? I am under no delusion about all these matters. They are all designed to protect our oil industry. I am not objecting to protection as long as it is essential to import oil to bolster the economy of this country; but if that is recognised, as it must be recognised by everybody, why boggle at a suggestion that some measure of protection should be afforded to the coal industry?
  As I remarked in an interjection while the right hon. Gentleman was speaking, even Conservative Governments have recognised the importance of affording protection to the coal industry by subventions. If the right hon. Gentleman wants a suggestion, it may well be that it is worth while out of the vast profits provided for the Government from the production and importation of oil to provide a small subsidy for the coal industry.
  The right hon. Gentleman may ask whether we are actually demanding a subsidy for the coal industry. Let me explain. Not very long ago the Coal Board was compelled, whether it liked it or not, to import coal. That cost a

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  lot of money, probably £100 million. If I am wrong, the Parliamentary Secretary can correct me. I agree that one of the provisions upon which the Coal Board bases its policy is contained in the Act for which I had some responsibility some years ago. The Board is responsible for the output of coal in this country. That is perfectly true, but it is not responsible for the importation of coal from other countries.
  That responsibility, with all the finance it entailed and all the trouble which arose from it, should be clearly placed on the Government's shoulders. I feel that if the Coal Board had not been penalised by that financial sanction it would not have had the deficits, and certainly not such large deficits, which have accompanied its activities in the past few years. These are all matters which ought to be noted. It is no use the Government hiding their heads in the sand and pretending that these difficulties never arose.
  The right hon. Gentleman indulged in the customary sneers about what happened in 1947, when there was a shortage of coal, for which it was alleged that I was responsible. He forgets that when we took over the pits we suffered from the gross neglect of the pits over many years while the industry was privately owned. That is not all. There may have been many reasons why the pits were neglected. The capital available may not have been sufficient to reorganise the pits at that time. Over and above that, however, is what happened during the war. I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman was still at school, or in what activities he was engaged. I was in the House, with many of my hon. Friends and some hon. Members opposite. Many of the pits were denuded of miners. This arose out of the French collapse. The French were not buying our coal and, as a result, many miners were compelled to leave the pits. They were called up or went into munitions work.
  When we took over the pits we had insufficient men to undertake the activities required. We were faced with the neglect of bygone years and also with a shortage of manpower. I will say nothing about the phenomenal winter of 1947, unless hon. Members would like me to do so. Perhaps it would be a waste of time, When we take all these factors
  76
  into account we realise why there was a shortage of coal and what were the consequences of the situation for the Coal Board and the nationalised industry.
  By way of digression, I would say that there is nothing wrong with the principle of nationalisation. I am not so sure about the implementation of nationalisation. It is just as well that somebody should say that, and perhaps it might as well be me. I am not always happy about the activities of the Coal Board, and I often wish that we had the opportunity to ask questions about its activities and those of other nationalised boards in the House. That is a democratic procedure which should be available to us.
  I will take an example. This bears on the question asked by the right hon. Gentleman about a national fuel and power policy. He asked what use we are to make of our coal resources, beyond what is now being done. My answer is that if the Coal Board, backed by the Government, by the Ministry of Power, by the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends, had devoted as much attention to the production of oil and other by-products from inferior coal over the last ten years as they have to reorganisation, in the long run it would have been far better for the country.
  I am not suggesting that there should have been no reorganisation. That was essential. But hundreds of millions of pounds have been spent on reorganisation. That is a very long-term affair, whereas by the expenditure of a few million pounds we might have got on the rails the very desirable project of developing by-products from indigenous co al resources.
  What have the Government done? The right hon. Gentleman said, almost with dramatic effect, that the Government have appointed a committee to engage in research into these matters. When I mentioned that this had been going on for forty years, the right hon. Gentleman fobbed me off by suggesting that I thought that I was the only Minister of Fuel and Power, or Secretary for Mines, who knew anything about the subject. Of course I am not. I never suggested that I was. We have had several Secretaries for Mines and some Ministers of Fuel and Power from the opposite benches, but very little has been done in carrying

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  out research into the production of byproducts.
  After all is said and done, inferior or small coal lies at the very root of the coal problem at present. There is no real problem about large coal. I was surprised to hear that there is a problem over the stocks of gas coal. I did not believe that there were such large stocks of gas coal, but there may well be and, if my right hon. Friend says so, I accept it. It is the inferior coal problem that is so troublesome.
  We can do several things with inferior coal. First, we can turn inferior coal into ovoids, into briquettes, and into a variety of chemical products. That is what ought to have been clone, and sooner or later it will have to be done. That is one line of approach.
  I wish to say this on the question of the Labour Party's fuel and power policy. What do we mean by a fuel and power policy? We have three elements in the fuel and power industry of this country. First, we have coal, which is the basis. In spite of the use of oil for gasification or for electricity power stations, there can be no doubt that coal is the basis of gas production and electricity generation. Secondly, we have electricity. Thirdly, we have gas.
  When the Labour Government nationalised the mining industry it was our intention—I think that I declared it from the Dispatch Box in introducing the Bill—that one day these three industries, if not integrated, if not embodied into a complete unit, would be closely coordinated, not in competition one with another, which is the Government's policy, but dovetailed into each other.
  In a situation of that kind one of the industries might not pay its way. It might be the coal industry It might be electricity. It might be gas. For example, when one effects co-ordination in a large departmental store or in an industry—it may be the engineering industry—one section often does not pay its way, but another section may more than pay its way. In consequence, the business thrives. That is precisely what we intended.
  I ask the Committee to consider what has happened. First, the electricity industry is not subsidised, but what is happening? There is a two-part tariff, which means that some electricity consumers
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  are not paying the fair economic rate. Secondly, it is well established that some coals are sold to certain industrial undertakings at a lower than economic price. These things are now happening, whereas if the three industries were co-ordinated under one organisation and direction it is at least conceivable that it would be possible to bring about a greater measure of prosperity and security in the industries.
  I agree wholeheartedly with what the hon. Member for Heeley said about the need for exports. I am satisfied that we could, if we desired, export a great deal of what is called inferior coal, the small coal—not in its raw state, but by turning it into briquettes or ovoids. An effort should be made to find a market for it in the furnaces, railways and other industrial establishments of foreign countries.
  I come to the social aspect of the problem. The hon. Member for Heeley said that he thought that the Paymaster-General was too complacent. All I have to say about the right hon. Gentleman's observations on the social aspect of the problem is this. Not only is he too complacent, but the line he takes is most dangerous. If a large body of men are to be rendered redundant, it will create a social problem which will be very difficult for this or any other Government to tackle.
  What is the position? The right hon. Gentleman says, "Be patient. By 1965 or perhaps 1970 everything in the garden will be lovely. We shall want 300 million tons of energy in this country—in nuclear power, electricity, oil, gas and coal. When that time comes the coal industry will make its contribution of, say, 200 million, or perhaps 210 million tons. Then all will be well."
  What is to happen now? What about the men who will be rendered redundant? It should be noted that the men affected will not only be men reaching 65. When men are made redundant at 65, with a pension and perhaps with the addition of the supplementary pension provided out of the Miner's Fund, it is possible to carry on. But what will happen to men rendered redundant at 45 or 50 when it will be almost impossible for them to obtain alternative employment? There will be unemployment benefit far a period, and National Assistance.

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  Is that the policy of the Government? Is that what they mean when they say that uneconomic pits must be closed? I agree with my right hon. Friend that, if uneconomic pits are to be closed, it should be done in a planned fashion over a period of time so that we can adapt ourselves to the social and economic changes forced upon us. We must do that. That is the essential and sensible way of tackling the problem.
  Of course, I do not impute malice to the members of the Government in these matters. No doubt they are as sincere and honest in their views on policy relating to this industry as my right hon. and hon Friends and myself are. However, I think that the Government are mistaken. Their mistake may cost the country dearly.
  I suggest that the Government should go ahead with its research. They should tell the Coal Board to produce its by-products whenever it can. They should speed that up Perhaps it will have to be done in competition with the chemical industry, even with I.C.I. It is the Government who ask for competition. If they want competition, let the gas industry and the Coal Board provide the byproducts in competition with the chemical industry of this country. It seems that the Government agree with me. That is an improvement. That is the first thing that could be done.
  The second thing that could be done would be to bring these three industries together and let them hammer out a solution in a co-ordinated manner. And the Minister of Power must direct them. He has the power to direct general policy. We gave him that power in the original Bill. I had it myself, though for only a limited period, but I had little coal. He has all the coal he wants—and more—so he could handle the situation much more easily than I could have been expected to do.
  I do not subscribe to all that the Paymaster-General had to say about opencast coal operations. Opencast coal production, after the war, and continuing for several years, was a very valuable contribution to our coal resources and a very valuable aid in assisting industrial production, but the time may have come to reconsider it. That is not for me to say. It has nothing to do with agriculture, the
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  desecration of land and all the rest of it—
  Mr. Rupert Speir: Of course it has.
  Mr. Shinwell: The hon. Gentleman knows nothing about it, anyhow. I myself have seen places where opencast operations have taken place and the land afterwards restored. In the opinion of agriculturists, more expert than I or the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir) can hope to be, that land was far better afterwards than before. Perhaps, on economic grounds, it is desirable to contract opencast operations.
  I suppose that it would be very difficult to prevent oil coming to this country, as the Government make so much profit from it themselves. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us what profit the Government do make. Perhaps he will also tell us whether the profit they earn from the oil industry is equivalent to the expenditure incurred on military activities for the protection of the industry.
  In my mining constituency we are now suffering some redundancy. Large numbers of the coke-oven men have become redundant, and the Minister of Labour agrees that this is a very serious problem. It is not easy to find alternative employment for men, now unemployed, from the coke ovens in Durham and elsewhere. What is that redundancy due to? It is due to the Government's policy of—I will not say stagnation, but contraction of industry. Some of these redundant men have obtained work a long way from their homes, but it is not desirable to uproot people from the place of their birth, and where they have their associations. It is not a satisfactory solution of the social problem. Rather, it creates a social problem.
  The Government must face redundancy. I see that my friend Sam Watson, General Secretary of the Durham Mineworkers' Union, has proposed that the Coal Board should make a payment of £100 for every redundant man. Well, I suppose that £100 is better than nothing—it is useful for various purposes—but even £100 will not go very far these days. Therefore, that proposal is not enough.
  What about shorter hours of labour in the mines? I would remind the Committee that as far back as 1930 I represented

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  the Labour Government at Geneva, when we secured a convention for a 7¼hour day. We wanted a 7-hour day, but 7¼hours was agreed on. But that has never been ratified. When an industry is contracting, without impairing efficiency—and I am all for efficiency—but men are thrown out of work as a result, it is surely time to consider whether it is not possible, by reducing the hours of labour, to keep those men in work, or to absorb more men.
  If it is said from the other side, as it no doubt will be, that this would make the industry even less competitive, I venture to say that if we had a satisfied mining community, with no fear of redundancy, a measure of security, proper industrial relations with the Coal Board and with whichever Government were in power, and the reorganisation now taking place, and projected, we would get all the efficiency necessary to make the coal industry competitive.
  I should like to be able to tell my constituents that the Government had thought the matter over; that I had heard the Parliamentary Secretary refute much of the nonsense indulged in by the Paymaster-General. After all, the Parliamentary Secretary has often dropped a brick; another one will not do anybody any harm. I suggest that he enables me and my hon. Friends to go back to our mining constituencies and say, "We have some assurance that the Government are giving the closest attention to this problem, particularly to its social aspects." I hope that as a result of what he says, we can promise our friends that there will in future be a greater measure of security than there appears to be at present.
  6.7 p.m.
  Colonel C. G. Lancaster (South Fylde): Th right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) speaks with almost unrivalled experience of fuel and power matters. He has, of course, the added distinction of having been the author of the scheme by which this industry was launched on the sea of nationalisation. I do not hold that against him, because he frankly said that he was not altogether happy about the further progress of the child he had fathered. On a number of his points I found myself in almost complete agreement, but I will take those up
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  in the course of my speech and go back now to the origins of this debate.
  My right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General destroyed almost every one of the arguments advanced by the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) I am very much in agreement with my right hon. Friend's general economic propositions, although I am not altogether happy about the social side of the matter. I sympathise very fully with the concern of right hon. and hon. Members opposite over the effect of what is now occurring on the lives and fortunes of the men engaged in this industry. For a few moments I want to deal with the problem as it is being tackled now, and then to try to make one or two suggestions as to how we can seek to solve it.
  The principal reason for the coal industry's problems—not only here but everywhere in the world—is that there has been a change-over from solid to refined fuels; electricity, oil and the like. There has been a world recession, and there have been economies in the use of fuel by industry generally. We would be foolish to attempt to put the clock back.
  What are the three main ways in which the problem is at present being tackled? First, there is the closure of uneconomic pits. In general, nobody will quarrel with that, but as the right hon. Member for Easington has said, this must be done in a controlled way. We must recognise that some pits are completely wasted assets. That happens in all extractive industry, and has been happening since coal mining first began. Once the reserves there are finished, that is the end of that story.
  Nevertheless, the closure of a pit which, for one reason or another, has been shown to be uneconomic in certain circumstances may mean the loss for all time of the reserves in that pit, and whatever arrangements are made for transferring the men it will mean a certain loss and wastage of the trained manpower employed at that pit. Although, as I say, we must continue the process of closing pits, it must be done on a long-term and controlled basis.
  The next matter is that of redundancy of manpower. We must be very cautious about this. We cannot turn off men and hope to get them back in the same condition as when they left. When a man leaves the industry, he may come back,

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  but it takes time for the co-ordination of his muscular and mental activities to return to the condition in which they were when he left and for him to become the useful man that he was previously. I would sooner see some scheme by which men are retained rather than turned away, although, of course, we must recognise that as the years go by an efficient industry will need fewer men than are required at present. However, that is a long-term matter.
  Thirdly, there is the question of the further stocking of coal. We are informed that there is not much worry about adding to the present stocks, but I am beginning to wonder whether we are not getting very close to the point of no return. Stocking coal is no new thing. We did it in the past, and up to a certain level it was a practicable proposition. but there inevitably came a point where whatever benefits there were in keeping a pit in operation were discounted by the additional cost of putting that coal on the ground, further and further away from the pit itself, with all the loss and deterioration which thereby occurred. I am wondering whether we are not getting very close to that point at this moment.
  I suggest that the solution comes under three headings. Two of these have been referred to at some length, but I think they require further emphasis. First, the coal industry is only going to regain and maintain its position in this competitive world of fuel requirements by becoming cost-conscious and competitive. We heard an encouraging account this afternoon of the improvement in O.M.S., and there has been a distinct improvement, although I wonder whether it represents more than might have been expected from the stoppage of Saturday working and from the pressure of investment which has occurred in this industry during the last decade.
  In that respect, I should like to digress for a moment about the competition which the British coal industry faces at the moment. Let us take the analogy of the United States of America, not as between America and ourselves but within the United States. Their coal industry faced far greater competition than we do. They had not only great hydro-electric schemes, like that of the Tennessee Valley Authority, but natural gas in immense quantities and almost un-
  84
  limited oil. Yet, despite that indigenous competition, the American coal industry has retained its level within that frame-work, and it has done it by cutting costs. Until we are able to cut costs within this industry, we shall not be able to main-taro our position.
  I have considerable sympathy with management at this moment, working as they do in an atmosphere of not knowing whether additional coal will mean merely additional stocking and will add to the complications and worries of the National Coal Board. There can be no urge and emphasis on improvement in those conditions. I believe it is necessary for the situation to be rationalised so that the advantages of the very elaborate and, indeed, efficient reorganisation which has been occurring in the industry can be given full scope.
  In this respect, one must add the matter of cleaner coal. We shall not be competitive with other sources of energy unless the coal produced in our pits is sold clean. Last Saturday I was walking round a mental institution of which I happen to be a governor, and I was shown a heap of anthracite coal. There were about 30 tons of it. Something like 50 per cent. of the heap was shale. We cannot afford that. We must have clean and cheap coal. As far as possible also, we must have round coal. Round coal is in great demand. Our old Mediterranean market was almost essentially a round coal market. We went too far and too fast in the introduction of certain types of power loaders in this country, and we have introduced an excess of small coal. We should now reverse the process and produce as much round coal as possible.
  I should like to join with my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Sir P. Roberts) and with the right hon. Member for Easington in urging the further development of our export industry. When it is realised that one commercial concern in this country has recently been advertising that it is selling about 50 million dollars worth of goods abroad and it is recognised that the whole of our coal export business at this moment is worth less than half of that, the Committee will appreciate to what a pass we have come. We are at the moment exporting barely 3 million tons of coal. There was a time when we exported 187 million tons.

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  We were the greatest coal exporters in the world.
  It may be said that we cannot regain our position in the export markets because of prices, but I believe it might not be altogether unwise if to some extent we bought our way back into that market. It might be a sound investment. We can-not say that in due course we will get back; that time may never come. The time to get back into the export market is now and in succeeding months. An immense effort must be made in that direction. I sincerely support what my hon. Friends have said in that regard.
  The next point that I want to discuss is research. One of the things that struck me, and I am sure struck hon. Members opposite, in the course of our work on the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries, when we were investigating the affairs of the coal industry, was the very small amount of money being expended on research, whether into low temperature carbonisation, or the use of small coals or inferior coals for gas purposes, or the matter on which the right hon. Member for Easington spoke—the making of briquettes and ovoids—or, indeed, the pure development of coal itself as a primary commodity. At the moment, we arc spending about £120 million a year on capital account in reorganising the coal industry. I wonder whether it would be unreasonable if we spent about 4 or 5 per cent. of that annually on research.
  The ordinary industrialist is not inhibited in short-time working by the circumstances of his wage structure, and yet with the guaranteed wage structure which we have in the industry, the problem of short-time working does become very difficult. Would it not be wise to look into the possibility of a guaranteed weekly wage? I say that in particular because, if management could so organise production as to secure that, during the summer months, the industry worked, possibly, a four-day week, with a full week during the rest of the year, that would represent 10 per cent of the production of the country at this moment and would give management the flexibility to deal with the great problems of coal stocking and production.
  I firmly believe that it would be wise, whatever our predelictions with regard to existing wage agreements, to look
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  seriously into the possibility of whether something of that sort would be in the, interests of the industry and the men employed within it.
  Mr. Blyton: Is the hon. and gallant Member for South Fylde (Colonel Lancaster) suggesting that the miners should do away with their guaranteed week so as to work four days a week for four days' pay?
  Colonel Lancaster: No, I am not suggesting anything of the sort. I am suggesting the substitution of the guaranteed weekly wage for the present system of a guaranteed wage. In principle, there is not an immense difference between the two, but it would give management the opportunity to achieve that flexibility which the present arrangement precludes.
  Above all, what seems to be needed at this moment more than anything else is some hard thinking. When all is said and done, since 1947 there has not been much change in a scheme which was acknowledged at that time as provisional and hasty and by no means perfect. The right hon. Member for Blyth frankly conceded that. Since then, there has been one inquiry by the Fleck Committee, a Committee which, in my view, was not ideally constituted and which did not deal very imaginatively with the problem. In fact, it made little or no difference to the position as it then existed. Can we really say at this moment that nothing is wrong with this industry, that nothing needs change in its structure, its organisation or its methods? Of course, we cannot.
  I believe that the time has now come to consider the whole matter afresh. It may be that the difficulties with which we are faced has made this time particularly opportune. Certainly, the moment has come when there should be, both by Parliament and by the Boards, a great deal of fresh and imaginative thinking. Without it, we shall not succeed.
  6.22 p.m.
  Mr. Alan Fitch: It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. and gallant Member for South Fylde (Colonel Lancaster), even though one may not agree with his observations. He always speaks with great diffidence about a subject about which he has intimate knowledge.

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  The hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Sir P. Roberts) spoke about opencast workings. I can tell him that land in Wigan which has been returned to the farmers after opencast working is completely unfit for any kind of agricultural work whatever, and I do not believe that that experience is unique.
  Sir P. Roberts: How long ago was that? Can the hon. Gentleman give us some idea of the date?
  Mr. Fitch: Yes, I am taking a present case. It is up to date.
  The hon. Gentleman suggested also that if the opencast contracts were stopped, men would be thrown out of work. Nobody, of course, wants to throw men out of work, but it should be remembered that these men are employed by civil engineers. They are not miners. Therefore, there will be available for them alternative work which would not be available to men employed in deep mining. When one thinks of the needs of agriculture and the value of coal in relation to the value of agricultural products, it is obviously unnecessary to go on with any kind of opencast workings whatever, there being 22 million tons of coal at present undistributed.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) said that the reasons for the fall in the demand for coal were two: first, the recession in industry, which we have discussed in several debates; and, second, the use of oil. I want to say a word or two about oil. It has been mentioned much already, and, no doubt, other hon. Members will have more to say about it. It is generally recognised that many industries have gone over or are contemplating going over to oil, at least to a certain extent. The gas, electricity and steel industries are examples. The consumption of oil in uses where it competes with coal was, in 1956. 19 million tons of coal equivalent. In 1958, the level had risen to 28 million tons of coal equivalent. This is where oil was competing with coal.
  The Economist of 4th October had this to say:
  "Everyone concerned with forecasting fuel demand always accepted this growth in the use of fuel oil. But it used to be seen as satisfying the growth in total demand which coal would not be able to meet: since that growth ceased, the continued expansion of oil sales has been at the expense of coal."
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  Now, oil is not complementary to coal but is in competition with it.
  Two or three months ago, there was delivered through my letter-box a sort of newspaper, the kind of thing which, no doubt, many hon. Members have seen, a paper of no particular literary value and devoted to advertising. The proprietors obviously could not sell it; they had to give it away. I was interested to note that sandwiched between an advertisement for vegetable soup with stuffed bacon rolls and an advertisement for a vital vitamin was an article on coal by the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro). I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is not in his place today, because he is a regular attender at debates of this kind, and, had he been here, I should have informed him that I intended to quote from what he had said. In his article, the hon. Gentleman said:
  "Socialists and union leaders have suggested that imported fuel oils should be limited in order to concentrate upon the use of indigenous coal. Surely, the only real spur to greater efficiency in the State-monopoly coal industry is effective competition from oil."
  If we are talking only about efficiency, nobody would disagree. No one on this side of the Committee nor, I am sure, anyone on the benches opposite would suggest that we should run industry, whether private or State controlled, in an inefficient manner. But when we are speaking about efficiency, we must bear in mind also the position of the two parties which are competing one with the other. I shall refer to them here as international oil, a very wealthy organisation, and the nationalised coal industry.
  In 1957, British Petroleum and Royal Dutch Shell invested for capital development £486 million, nearly five times as much as the nationalised coal industry, which, in that particular year, invested £103 million. In the ten years until 1957, £240 million was spent on oil refineries in this country. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) pointed out, the National Coal Board started from scratch. It took over an industry which was run down. It had no assets whatever and had to build from that basis. The prices it was allowed to charge were limited to such an extent that it could make only enough money to cover its costs and the interest on compensation to the former owners. In fact, we were selling our coal at between 20s.

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  and 30s. below world prices. The Board was tied. It is fighting today with one hand tied behind its back. It has been made responsible for losses on imported coal. It has been made responsible for subsidence, something which I cannot understand, because subsidence has taken place over a long period. It is not something which has occurred since the industry was nationalised. I feel that compensation for subsidence should be paid out of interest paid to the former coal owners. The National Coal Board has had to meet high rates of interest. I believe that at present the Board is borrowing money at 5½ per cent. In 1947, money was borrowed at 2½ per cent. and in 1948 at 3 per cent.
  There is also the human side. The National Coal Board took over an industry that was run down, not only economically but in human relations as well. Miners were some of the worst paid workers in the country. The Board has raised their conditions of work until they are now among the best paid. The Board introduced many schemes—pension schemes and schemes of social security. I wonder whether the international oil companies have looked after their workers, particularly non-European workers, as well as the National Coal Board has looked after the miners. I should like to know the conditions under which many people in the oil companies are working.
  In 1955, a survey was made by the Ministry of Labour into the social benefits that certain industries paid per worker. The National Coal Board paid £63 2s. 6d. per worker per year in social benefits. No other industry in this country paid anything like as much. Some, including the cotton and engineering industries, paid only half this sum.
  The Board has entered what might be described as this fight at a definite disadvantage. The competition is not equal. It is unfair to suggest that the Coal Board should stand up without any kind of policy and help from the Government and be expected to beat international oil cartels.
  The National Union of Mineworkers has outlined a national fuel policy. I do not want to go into it in detail, but there are certain things which I should like to say about it. I have spoken before on the question of distribution because I
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  believe that it is something into which we should look. At the moment, 17,000 firms, mostly fairly small firms, are engaged in the distribution of coal. One of the things which should be looked into is the question of creating larger units on the zoning system so that we can have more efficient delivery. Since the price of coal was decontrolled last year merchants have increased their margin by 1s. 6d. per ton. The pithead price is now 93s. 3d. a ton. It is being sold to the householder at a 153s. 2d. a ton.
  Much has been said about new uses for coal. I think that in what I am about to say I shall echo the views of mine workers. We are very concerned that Dr. Bronowski and his team have not produced far more by-products. We do not wish to be critical, but we are very concerned about this problem. I know that the National Coal Board has had many things to deal with and has had difficulties to face, but my criticism is that it has not given sufficient attention to the important problem of by-products and that where it has it has allowed private enterprise to get whatever profit there may be.
  Referring to the export trade. it is interesting to note that America is flooding the Continental market. We have lost the Argentine market to America and Australia. Germany has now entered into competition with us and has taken markets in Sweden, Norway and Ireland from us. Russia is now importing oil into Italy at the lowest known price. It is costing the Russians the ridiculously low figure of two dollars per ton to transport coal from the Urals to Finland, which I understand is about 3,000 miles. Belgium has also entered the competitive field. We shall be very fortunate if at the end of this year we have exported 3 million tons of coal. This is a question into which the Minister should look. We cannot compete successfully with Germany at the moment because the Germans are charging 10s. a ton less than our reduced prices. The Poles are also charging 10s. to 15s. less than our prices. This is a problem to which we should give our urgent attention.
  I must refer to Lancashire. Of the 36 pits closed last year, one, the biggest, employing 1,300 men, was in Lancashire. I am pleased to say that all those men have been found work in other pits,

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  and I venture to say that had this occurred under private enterprise those men would have been on the dole. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] That is my opinion. The good relations which have existed between the Lancashire area of the National Union of Mineworkers and the Coal Board have borne fruit and the men have been found other work. I am confident that this co-operation will lead to greater security for the workers.
  Today, we tend to run down the mining industry and to talk about its inefficiency. In Lancashire, however, a record has been created. At the Bankhall Colliery in Burnley, great development is taking place. In five days an advance was made —mining men will know what I am talking about—in a 20 ft. by 12 ft. tunnel of 66 yards. This is a record for this country, and I think it is believed to be a record for Europe. In view of such developments, we should not talk too much about inefficiency in the coal industry.
  Finally, the Coal Board has a difficult job and we as Members of Parliament have a difficult job. We on this side agree that the industry is bound to contract a little. We must face that in view of the developments in atomic energy, but we want that contraction to be orderly. We do not want the industry to contract in conditions of chaos. Moral appeals are not much use in dealing with commercial problems. We can appeal to the people to buy English shirts and not those from Hong Kong; we can appeal to the people to go to the cinema and not to look at television; we can appeal to people to use coal and not oil; but moral appeals are not sufficient. We want practical action.
  We on this side are right in asking the Government to tell the mining industry what it is expected to produce and what its policy must be. In the national interest, we must have a national fuel policy which will remove from the miners that sense of frustration and insecurity which we thought had gone for ever when the industry was nationalised in 1947 but which unfortunately is returning again. The miner wants to know where he stands. In view of the advertisements which he has seen in the newspapers about the security of mining, he wants to feel that there is still a future for him in this great industry.
  6.40 p.m.
  Sir Albert Braithwaite: I am very glad to have an opportunity of intervening in this debate, because only the other day I put on the Order Paper a Motion in connection with the coal mining industry.
  [That this House, being aware of the vital necessity of maintaining a prosperous coal industry, calls upon the Government to institute an immediate inquiry into the urgent need for increased markets and the fullest use of our indigenous resources as the main basis of power, to ensure stable employment for a large section of our workpeople, and to safeguard the large capital investment made by the Government in this industry.]
  I am sure that nobody in the Committee can view the present situation with any equanimity. It is a serious situation. I do not agree with my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General this afternoon that this is a temporary phase. It is far more serious. It is much more likely to be permanent and it is likely to decline rather than to get better. If that is the case, it is our urgent duty to do something before we get the industry into a state when everybody in it is alarmed and uneasy. We should try to make practical plans for maintaining a level of production that will enable the industry to feel confident again.
  It is easy to say things of this sort, but I shall make one or two practical suggestions which I hope, will receive the consideration of my noble Friend the Minister of Power and the Ministry. The loss of our export markets is now being felt to the full by the coal industry. It is only a few years ago that we were stopped completely from exporting any coal at all and other people stepped into the gap. So priceless was this market to other countries that the Americans cut their freight rates on transport from the United States from 100s. to 25s. a ton to secure the markets of Europe and they made long-term contracts. This is a serious position, because we used to balance our European payments by the export of coal from this island. In the past, we sent about 40 million tons a year to Europe in the peak years.
  It is not too late to get some of those markets back again, but we must be prepared to go and get them, even if it involves a substantial reduction in price.

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  I shall come to the detail of this presently, but we must try to get these markets back again before it is too late for us to have any chance of them.
  Let us consider the situation if we had 10 million tons of exports. That quantity of coal would give work for a year to 35,000 miners. It would produce roughly 5.000 cargoes for the small ships which we used to send abroad to the European ports, ships that were designed to go into the small harbours and build up reserves of coal in those areas. It would also provide 500,000 railway loads of coal to the ports. All this is ancillary to the mining industry and would give a measure of employment and bring prosperity to the country. Therefore, it is surely wise to go out to try to secure these orders in every possible way.
  I have spoken on this subject before arid I have asked the Coal Board to give the public an idea of what the Board was doing. No reports of this nature are available and in the House of Commons we have had very little information on the day-to-day working position of the coal mining industry. If it is difficult to do this, however, there is one other thing which, surely, it is easy to do. If we cannot sell coal, I would like to see us selling power. We already have a line through to France, where there is a reciprocal arrangement for the sale of electrical energy.
  Why should somebody else supply 12 million tons of coal to Ireland when only a 40-mile wire is required from Scotland to take the electricity to Ireland? Surely, some arrangement of this nature could be devised and could be deployed in Scotland to try to bring some life back into the Scottish coalfields by the production of electrical energy and its transmission across the water to Ireland. It is not a difficult engineering problem and it is surely something which, if we were able to secure the market, would afford an outlet for another 7 or 10 million tons a year. These are merely suggestions.
  I am worried about the general situation of the industry. Anybody with any sense can see that it will be run down and will be a declining industry for the rest of its life. Therefore, plans must be made now so that it runs down fairly and squarely, to give the people who have been brought up in it a chance rather than that they should be shoved on the
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  scrapheap at any moment and all these 700,000 men and their families suffer in consequence.
  No one, on either side, wants to stand in the way of progress. I am quite sure that every one of us is delighted to see the scientific approaches to new problems that will bring great benefits. When they harm a basic industry like this, however, we must make our plans in advance to take in these movements at the proper time and in the right proportion. We have serious competition with the oil industry, but the oil industry is much more flexible and is bound to make its appearance in industrial affairs. Oil is easier to handle and for some purposes it is better.
  In all this, however, we must find a method of dealing with the situation. That is why I want an inquiry into the position of the Government and of the Ministry of Power in this matter. At what figure are they allowing the industry to run down? Are they knocking off 50 million tons next year and another 50 million tons the following year, or are they doing it gradually and taking it up in a sensible, reasonable way?
  My suggestion is that there should be an immediate levy of 3d. per ton on all coal and coal equivalent, to be paid into a fund that would run the industry down in a sensible way and enable us to deploy the people who work in it in other industries as best we can. If a scheme of this sort is not prepared, the whole thing will be in a chaotic state.
  Mr. E. Fernyhough: What would that amount to?
  Sir A. Braithwaite: It would produce £30 million a year. If it could be kept separate and dealt with over the period, some of the money, at least, could perhaps be used to secure larger markets on the Continent so that we keep more people engaged in the mining industry. At least, some stabiliser of this character is clearly needed at this time. I have no confidence that we will not be faced with staggering shocks in the industry unless plans are made.
  I do not minimise the work of the Coal Board, but there are many things that are open to serious criticism. I do not see why, in its annual accounts, the Board should lose £2 million a year on its houses, After all, the Board has provided adequate remuneration in the mining

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  industry. There is no reason why £2 million should be shown as a loss in its accounts.
  Miss Margaret Herbison: I do not know the area from which the hon. Member comes, but I have some idea of the loss in my own constituency. The Coal Board has been trying to keep houses in decent repair, and some of them have cost so much because they were in such a poor state, just as were the pits when the Coal Board took them over. When one looks at the expenditure which the Board has made on houses one finds that most of it goes in trying with very great difficulty to keep in decent repair houses which, if there were other houses available, would be knocked down.
  Sir A. Braithwaite: Naturally, I have not got all the details which the hon. Lady mentioned, but this is an item in the publicised balance sheet of the Coal Board which it does seem to me ought to be corrected in some way.
  Miss Jennie Lee: Would it not make more sense if that £2 million spent on an absolute necessity were borne by the general taxpayers instead of by the Coal Board?
  Sir A. Braithwaite: I do not know just how this loss has occurred. The explanation that we have heard today may be the reason for it, but, at any rate, to bring it on charge account against the cost of coal and to bring it into the balance sheet of the Coal Board seems to me absolutely wrong. It would not be the sort of thing which would be done in an ordinary commercial undertaking. We want to see these nationalised boards based on efficient and economic realism and not on some theoretical figures.
  Mr. Fernyhough: Just now the hon. Gentleman gave me a figure of £30 million a year as a result of a 3d. levy on coal and coal equivalent. Surely he means £3 million, not £30 million a year.
  Sir A. Braithwaite: I took it on 300 million tons. I may have been wrong in my mathematics. It makes a substantial difference, I agree, and it may have to be 6d., or even more. It is the principle of the suggestion I want to put across to the Committee, that something of this nature should be done which is fair to all.
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  I do not want to say much today about what everyone in the Committee knows is a pet subject of mine—opencast working. I started it in this country, and I claim that it has been a substantial contributor to our national economy. However, I want to correct an impression which I think was given in reply to a Question the other day by an hon. Member opposite, who asked the Government whether any figure could be given of the damage done by opencast to main roads. Of course, no damage of any sort could possibly occur, because we do not go under main roads. We do not dig through main roads. We dig in land clear of the roads. I just wanted to put that right, because it was not made very clear the other day that this does not affect the road situation.
  Mr. Fernyhough: There is the heavy traffic, though.
  Mr. Roy Mason: It does affect the roads. Is the hon. Gentleman not aware of the fact that the increased heavy tonnage on the roads, the heavy lorries running in connection with opencast workings, and running near main towns, do affect many roads?
  Mr. Speir: Agricultural amenities, as well.
  Sir A. Braithwaite: At any rate, I am sorry that a situation has arisen which has led to the reduction in opencast. I hope that the indigenous resources of our country will be used to the fullest possible extent as contributors to our national prosperity, wherever they come from.
  Mr. Speir: Regardless of amenities?
  Sir A. Braithwaite: We have been through all that before. Amenities have not been disturbed in many places at all, but I am not going to argue that point with my hon. Friend.
  In conclusion, I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he will please say whether there is any real study going on by any responsible group of people inside the Government in connection with a plan for dealing with this industry on a gradual basis and not on the basis of these violent situations which occur? Nobody on either side of this Committee wants to keep an uneconomic proposition going if we can possible avoid it. We

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  want to get these things on to a better, more profitable basis for the sake of the whole nation.
  Therefore, I think that an inquiry is most urgently needed. We have not had one of such a character since the Ridley inquiry, in 1947. The time has surely come for a reassessment of the whole situation of national power, so that we may look forward to a future with security for those engaged in the fuel and power industry and with greater ultimate benefits to the nation.
  6.56 p.m.
  Mr. John Cronin: I was very interested to hear what the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Sir A. Braithwaite) had to say, for he has had such experience of this subject, so much so that one feels some diffidence in following him. He is certainly not miscast as the proponent of opencast.
  I think that we ought to consider the problems of the industry from both the short-term and the long-term point of view. The short-term position, although it seems extremely serious, does seem to me amenable to comparatively simple measures. Obviously, the short-term situation is due to various factors which will change. First, there is the stagnation of production, of which we have all heard so much. There will perhaps be expansion of industrial production resulting from the Budget and certainly from changes in the autumn or even next year in the composition of the House as a whole. The weather has obviously had a serious effect this year, and we can always rely upon the English weather to change sufficiently for the worse for it to affect to a substantial extent a problem like this.
  One must bear in mind that the accumulation of coal stocks is to a considerable extent marginal. I do not think that it amounts to more than about five weeks' production. Indeed, it is only about half the accumulation of the stocks of cotton or rubber or timber. So it is very important that panic measures should not be taken.
  It is particularly desirable that the National Coal Board should be careful to cut only the really uneconomic forms of production in so far as it makes any cuts at all. It is very important to remember that the difficulties of the coal industry have existed only since 1957.
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  Before then, we had many years of acute shortage, and this present situation may well reverse itself. It is, therefore, very important that there should not be any irreversible cuts in useful production.
  It is also very desirable that any closures which are made should be not only of a minimal nature, but also carefully planned. It is particularly desirable that when miners are transferred from pits which are closed they should go to other pits where there is housing accommodation and social amenities, schools, chapels; and it is very important, when it is not possible to transfer miners to other pits, that other industries should be brought to the area of the closed pit. These matters are really vital to the social aspect of the problem.
  There is a real danger that the Coal Board may be induced to take measures which are more extreme than the situation really justifies. There is a steady psychological pressure on the Coal Board from hon. Gentlemen opposite and from the Press to make its transactions always of the maximum financial advantage without consideration of other factors. The Parliamentary Secretary himself, many years ago, was somewhat opposed to the concept of the nationalisation of coal, and still is. It would be reassuring to know that he has changed his views completely, Is the Parliamentary Secretary a black sheep who has become white, or is he a wolf in shepherd's clothing? One does not know.
  The Paymaster-General often appears to be a sympathetic figure in matters concerning nationalisation, as far as that is possible for one on the other side of the Committee. Yet last December he said:
  "The increase of 3 million tons in stocks is about as much as can be financially and physically tolerated in the course of the next year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd December. 1958, Vol. 596, c. 1311.]
  This suggests that his reassurance today might not be as satisfying as it could be. If the right hon. Gentleman has changed his views since last December, he might change the view he expressed today. So we cannot be certain that the Government will take this lenient view on the increasing coal stocks which the speeches today suggest.
  The long-term situation for coal is obviously unsatisfactory as matters stand.

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  Practically every hon. Member who has spoken today has referred to the competition of fuel oil. Most of us know that the sales of fuel oil last year increased by 50 per cent, over 1957 and 62 per cent, over 1956. In January and February of this year the sales of fuel oil were 45 per cent, higher than in the same period of 1958.
  This is a serious situation which is following a geometrical progression and, obviously, it is important that effective and determined measures should be taken to combat it. Of these measures there are certain ones which are obvious and there are others which require careful consideration before they are put into operation. The most obvious is that the Ministry of Power should perform its proper function, namely, to co-ordinate the nationalised industries under its control. Most of us here feel that its co-ordination leaves much to be desired.
  We have heard the Paymaster-General say today that the binding principle is freedom of choice for the user and competition between suppliers. If that is the case, why have a Ministry of Power? Why not let the nationalised industries compete haphazardly, without any Ministry? I certainly think that the Postmaster-General—I must apologise for the slip—I was probably thinking of a hypothetical book called "No Love for Reggie," which has not yet been written.
  Mr. Cyril Osborne: Will the hon. Gentleman find that on the road to Brighton pier? By Dr. Cronin?
  Mr. Cronin: To turn to the more serious subject of co-ordination, it would be interesting to look at a few simple results of co-ordination, or lack of it, by the Ministry of Power over the last two years. We find, for instance, that the power stations, in 1957, increased their consumption of fuel oil four times. Is it really necessary for this situation to continue? The Paymaster-General said today that contracts have been made and must be honoured. We accept that, but it is possible and honourable to renegotiate contracts and ensure that adequate compensation is paid to anybody who loses thereby, or to divert the fuel oil contracted for into some alternative form of consumption.
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  If we look at the gas industry we find that in 1958 twice as much fuel oil was used as in 1957. These are appalling figures. We have a situation in which the Minister of Power, the Paymaster-General and the Parliamentary Secretary are responsible for the co-ordination of three different industries. One is unable to sell its products and the other two are doing everything possible to make its products less saleable. This is the antithesis of co-ordination; it is economic anarchy.
  Mr. Osborne: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that this is the practical working of three nationalised industries?
  Mr. Cronin: Obviously, when there is a Government which does not really believe in nationalised industries. There must be great difficulties, at best from a sub-conscious psychological point of view, even for well-meaning Conservative Ministers, in attempting to achieve such co-ordination.
  The Paymaster-General has been a powerful advocate of the oil industry today. He pointed out, fairly, that oil offers us a net gain on the balance of payments, but what he unfairly did not point out was that fuel oil means a really serious net loss to us on our balance of payments, that three-quarters of our fuel oil is refined abroad. So there is a really serious danger to our balance of payments from its consumption.
  The Minister said that the idea that fuel oil had been dumped in this country was wrong. He said that by definition dumping means selling in this country a commodity at a lower price than it is sold in its country of origin. That is a legalistic argument, because here quality fuel oil is being sold at a lower price than even crude oil is sold in its country of origin. This is worse than dumping and justifies some effective measures.
  Our position over oil will become worse, because the French are now obliged to dispose of their oil from the Sahara. They are building a pipeline to Strasbourg and Karlsruhe, so more oil will come to Germany in bulk and there will be more by-products in the form of fuel oil which will be dumped in this country unless effective measures are taken. It is clear from the Paymaster-General's speech today that the Government do not contemplate any measures

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  against imported cheap fuel oil. The consideration of free competition has completely obsessed their minds. Even the High Authority of the European Coal and Steel Community is now asking its member nations to restrict the import of fuel oil and, as we all know, Germany imposes a duty on it.
  The National Union of Mineworkers has proposed 'that there should be a tax on fuel oil. Obviously, there are arguments against this. There is a clear economic argument against imposing any tax which impedes the efficiency of industry, but that argument applies with much greater force to the 2s. 6d. a gallon imposed on petrol and diesel fuel. If there were some tax on fuel oil, that could be easily compensated by a reduction in the duty on oils for propulsion.
  We on this side of the Committee have gone into the Division Lobby on past Finance Bills for some reduction in the duty of petrol and diesel fuel. It is a very difficult and contentious matter, but the suggestion by the National Union of Mineworkers of some form of tax on fuel oil deserves consideration. I am not saying at this juncture that it is essential or desirable, but the Paymaster-General rejects it completely even as a matter for study. Yet the Conservative Party had no hesitation in imposing such a tax between 1933 and 1947. I do not think that many hon. Members of the Committee would say that such a tax is now necessary, but it is something which requires rather more careful study than it is getting.
  There is the obverse side to the matter, and that is whether the Coal Board is selling coal as much as it would do if sufficient measures were taken to increase the sales. One sometimes wonders whether the Board is adopting a sufficiently aggressive sales policy. One sees everywhere advertisements urging the public to consume more fuel oil, but there is never any suggestion anywhere that the public should burn more coal. There is room for a more aggressive sales policy.
  Perhaps this is one of the very few criticisms that one can make of the Board, because, taking the long view of what the Board has done since vesting day, its financial achievements have been magnificent. When one recollects that half the pits taken over on vesting day
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  were producing coal at a loss, one cannot help being impressed by the very high standard of financial success achieved by the Board.
  It seems that the Government ought to take some legislative steps to allow the Board to make rebates. The oil industry achieves an enormous competitive advantage by being able to make rebates for oil supplied in bulk. If the Board could have the same facility, I am sure that it would compete much more effectively with the oil industry, certainly when dealing with the electricity industry and the gas industry. The Paymaster-General said that the Board has not approached him for such legislative authority. Surely he is not a passive figure and does not have to wait to be approached on a matter of such obvious advantage.
  Many hon. Members have some doubts as to how efficient coal distribution is at present. It seems absurd in these days of massive stocks of coal at the pits that there should be delays in delivery from the retailers. Yet one hears of that frequently in many places. Hon. Gentlemen have mentioned that wages form a very large part of the cost of coal. That is not really so from the retail point of view. The wage element is about 52s. per ton, and household coal is sold at about £12 a ton. So there seems to be considerable room for improvement in reducing distribution costs and making distribution more efficient.
  There is very little hope for the coal industry while the Government persistently avoid any fuel policy. The industry can survive only if there is careful planning. Planning in economic matters is as foreign to hon. Gentlemen opposite as the conception of grand opera to Australian aborigines. Nevertheless, planning is the only solution to this very difficult problem. Therefore, I trust that soon the parties in the House of Commons will change sides and that the coal industry will then look forward to a happier future.
  7.15 p.m.
  Mr. Rupert Speir: Not surprisingly, I do not agree with a great deal of what the hon. Member for Lough-borough (Mr. Cronin) has said, but he made two telling points, first, when he pointed out that the stocks on the ground in Britain today amount to only five

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  weeks' production. I also thought that he was on sound ground when he questioned whether contracts for opencast mining could not be amended, but I thought that the hon. Member was on extremely unsound ground, however, when he started to eulogise the planners. One thing that this debate has emphasised more than anything else is how wrong it is to put our faith in the planners; how, with the best information and the best will in the world, they have been totally wrong in foretelling the surplus which we now have. Anyone talking about the coal "problem" as recently as two years ago was referring to the shortage of coal, but now—in less than two years—if one talks about the coal problem one alludes to the surplus of coal. That does not speak very well for the planners.
  I am one of those who consider that the mining community in the post-war period have behaved with considerable restraint. Not surprisingly, they made hay while the sun shone and did their best to increase their welfare and their pay. They would have been less than human if they had not taken advantage of the desperate demand for coal in the post-war period. Nevertheless, the mining community, by and large, have exercised restraint, have been reasonable in their demands, have not abused their position and have not held the public up to ransom in the way that they could have done if they had thrown restraint to the winds.
  Mr. James Griffiths: That is different from the owners, when they had the industry in their hands.
  Mr. Speir: Considering the harsh treatment which was meted out to the miners in the days when coal was plentiful, the miners have, I believe, behaved with considerable restraint. Now that there is plenty of coal, it is as well for the country and the Government to remember the moderation in demand of the mining industry in the immediate post-war period. Now that coal is plentiful, we should have regard to the social consequences of closing pits although they are no longer altogether economic.
  Some hon. Members have been speaking today as though the coal industry was completely finished, as though the
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  demand for coal has gone for ever. It may well be that we shall be faced with a diminishing demand in the coming years, but my belief is that the diminution will be of a very slow character. It is absolute nonsense to talk as though the coal trade was finished. The National Coal Board is still the most important industrial unit in Western Europe.
  The hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. Woof) spoke as though the Government were hostile to the Board and were starving it of essential capital. That is not the position. Even today, after a difficult economic year, the Government are providing no less than £60 million—this year alone—as short-term capital for the coal industry, and, in addition, we are pouring additional long-term capital into the industry for development. Therefore, I do not think that one ought to speak as though the coal industry is finished.
  Also, it is worth while remembering that even today Western Europe is not producing enough coal for its own requirements. The European surplus has come about because of long-term American contracts. In these circumstances, I sympathise with the request of the miners' leaders that oil imports should be curtailed and that our indigenous fuel supplies should be protected, but I would say to the mining community that if they want that protection brought into being they must prove to the nation that it would be in the national interest to protect our coal industry. I must add that having listened to this debate today. I think that so far they have failed to do so.
  It certainly would not be in the national interest and would not, in the long term, be even in the miners' interest to protect our coal industry here at home if by so doing we put up the cost of British production and exports by 10 per cent. or even 5 per cent. I believe that the salvation of the coal industry must come about by increased efficiency on the part of the National Coal Board, and by more imaginative selling in ways suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Sir A. Braithwaite), with whose views on opencast mining I totally disagree.
  The National Coal Board, as, indeed, the British Railways, must realise that they are now up against the cold wind of competition and neither the public nor

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  industry any longer want coal at any price. They want quality, efficiency and competitive prices.
  I agree with those hon. Members who have asked today whether we in Britain really mean business in trying to regain our export trade, particularly with Western Europe. I was sorry that the Paymaster-General did not pay more regard to this subject during the course of his remarks. I believe that it would be well worth while, particularly at this juncture, to have regard for our longstanding traditional coal trade with Western Europe. Unfortunately, time corrodes tradition and if we are to get that trade back we must certainly act quickly and do our utmost, even if it means cutting costs to regain that trade.
  Price concessions may well have to be made, but I would suggest a temporary cut in prices would be a much sounder policy than closing more pits. As my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Fylde (Colonel Lancaster) pointed out, we cannot turn the supply of miners on and off like a tap. If the demand for coal should increase, as I myself believe it may well do in the near future, it would be a great mistake if we had not the miners ready and available to fulfil that demand. It is also worth while remembering that at one time we had exports of over 80 million tons of coal a year. Surely we should try now to get back to a target of a mere 10 million tons of coal exported every year. We should remember that if we can achieve that modest target we shall be providing jobs for no fewer than 35,000 miners. We shall indeed be doing more than that. We shall be providing work for idle ships, freight for our railways and something like £30 million of much-needed foreign currency.
  But whether we achieve an increased demand for coal supplies and whether these increased demands come about sooner or later, the time has come for a reconsideration of our policy of pursuing opencast mining.
  There cannot be a case today, I consider, for the compulsory acquisition of good agricultural land for opencast mining. I understand that the Government say that they cannot curtail opencast mining any further at the present time because to do so would break contracts. The Paymaster-General made
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  great play about the sanctity of contracts. We naturally want to observe the sanctity of contracts, but surely it is perfectly legitimate, if a contract is no longer required, to go to the people with whom the bargain has been made and amend the contract and, if necessary, pay them compensation for so doing. That seems to me to be a sensible attitude to adopt — a legitimate and rightful attitude. I say to the Paymaster-General that it may well be in the national interest in existing conditions to pay compensation in order to end prematurely some of these contracts for opencast mining.
  Sir P. Roberts: I cannot follow my hon. Friend's argument. Where we have a firm contract which neither side at the moment wants to break, why should the Government step in, and under what policy and principle is it suggested that the Government should come in in this matter?
  Mr. Speir: I think that there are two reasons why the Government should step in. I am all for the Government stepping in where some good objective is to be attained. In this case there would be the objective of giving more employment to the miners and also the objective of preserving the amenities in the rural areas and the good agricultural land which is now being destroyed by opencast mining I think that the contractors concerned could move their heavy equipment to other forms of civil engineering, road making and so on. Of course, they would require compensation, but I believe that that compensation would be money well spent in the national interest.
  These opencast contracts are today of great social concern. It appears to me that they are being clouded in a great deal of secrecy—far too much secrecy—and I should like to ask the Minister to tell us how long these contracts are to endure. How many contracts have been entered into during the past twelve months and during the period when we have known that there would be a surplus of coal? I understood the Paymaster-General to give some undertaking this afternoon about no further contracts being made for opencast mining, but I was not at all clear about the escape clause he popped in that undertaking, and so perhaps when the Parliamentary Secretary replies to the debate he will say what escape clauses there are or

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  whether it is in fact a completely firm undertaking that no further contracts will be made.
  Mr. Maudling: I did not say anything that was new. I repeated what was announced in the House a little while ago.
  Mr. Speir: I think that it would be helpful to the nation to know exactly what is the position. As I have said, there is far too much secrecy about these contracts. We are told that they cannot be broken, and I would have thought that they could be broken subject to reasonable compensation.
  Mr. Bernard Braine: Can my hon. Friend give one good economic reason for closing down one of the most profitable sides of the Coal Board's activities?
  Mr. Speir: It may be a very profitable undertaking to take over some of the land in my hon. Friend's constituency and opencast it, but I am sure that he would be very much against it. There are good reasons from the social and economic point of view why opencast mines should be closed down. Another argument is that I think that it is a very good thing to have this form of coal available in case of a national emergency so that it can be used as it was used in war-time to supplement deep-mined coal, but I do not think that at the present time that is desirable.
  Mr. Braine: My hon. Friend is running away from my question. I asked him if he could give one good, sound economic argument for closing down opencast mines.
  Mr. Speir: I did give one economic argument and that was that good agricultural land was being destroyed by the opencast methods. I think that I have made my point sufficiently clear to both sides of the Committee.
  In the meantime, so long as there is any danger of further pits having to be closed, I would say that on social grounds we should give longer notice to all those concerned. I was very glad that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South Fylde, with his great knowledge of the industry, also emphasised the need for planning in this connection and pressed
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  for longer notice being given when pits are to be closed. Thirty-six pits have already been closed this year, one of them in my constituency, and many others are threatened.
  Nationalisation has many disadvantages, but it has some advantages. Let us take advantage of the benefits which nationalisation ought to provide and see that there is better and longer-term planning for the industry. That can and should be done. It should be possible to give local authorities and others long notice of the intention to close a pit so that, in consultation with the Board of Trade, the authorities concerned can endeavour to arrange for alternative industry to re-employ miners made redundant. I do not think that that is too much to ask of a nationalised industry.
  I urge that the time has come for the Government to reconsider the system under which licences are issued for working the smaller mines or drifts. The Ministry rather than a directly interested body, such as the National Coal Board, might be made responsible for considering applications to work these small mines. The Board has too much of a vested interest in this matter.
  Also, after ten years or more of nationalisation, the time has come to consider whether it would not be in the national interest to increase the number of men permitted to work in these small mines from a maximum total now permitted of 30 to, say, 100. An amendment on those lines would in no way jeopardise the principle of nationalisation nor injure the Board's future, but it might be very beneficial to some small mining communities now threatened with complete extinction. It might help the running down of a mining community to be much more gradual in some areas and it might also be helpful socially, the importance of which, I was glad to hear the Paymaster-General emphasise. I ask the Government to consider this aspect of the problem as a matter of great urgency.
  7.32 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Grey: I hope that the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir) will forgive me if I do not immediately follow the arguments which he deployed, except to say that I largely agreed with what he said about opencast mining.

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  Throughout the debate I have found a general anxiety—with the exception of the speech of the Paymaster-General—about the mining situation. For the first time since the war, there has returned to the mining industry that uncertainty which was its lot during the 1930s. It has returned because of pit closures which have given rise to despondency in many mining villages.
  One of the arguments which we must deploy is that the Government themselves are responsible for the present position. With their lack of direction and unwillingness to put things right, they have allowed matters to drift along in a haphazard fashion. That is because of their inherent dislike and detestation of nationalisation.
  It is fantastic that in the middle of 1957 the country was short of primary energy. Experts of the Government, the N.C.B. and the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation estimated that from 1957 onwards there would be a growing gap reaching a total of 40 million tons by 1965. That meant that we would have to use all the coal we could get as well as oil and nuclear energy. It was also based on the assumption that industrial activity would increase 2 to 3 per cent. per annum. As we all know, industrial activity has decreased and we now have lying on the ground stocks to the tune of 35·6 million tons, compared with 23·3 million tons a year ago. One can see the trend, but the position is that we have plenty of coal in this country for industrial use and for space heating.
  It would be a complete lack of common sense on the part of the Government if we did not use all our energies and capacity for invention to use this great source of primary energy found under our feet and which provides work for approximately 800,000 men directly engaged in the mines, hundreds of thousands making machines for the mines and hundreds of thousands of others making other things as the result of the coal coming from the mines.
  Altogether, millions of people benefit from a prosperous mining industry. As has been said, we have not as yet got one half of the products which are available through coal. I shall not mention all the things which can be obtained from coal, but it is a tragedy that in
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  1959 we are still thinking only haphazardly about the uses which can he made of coal and its products. I hope that as the result of this debate a greater effort will be made to see what can be done with this vital raw material.
  It is elementary that we must sell our manufactured goods abroad and that whatever we import has to be paid for. In 1956, we bought £376 million worth of oil. In 1957. that figure was £440 million and in 1958 it was £434 million, still a very large figure. I admit at once that much of it is petrol, which is vital to us, hut much of it is fuel oil which it is not in the best interests of the mining industry or of the country that we should import.
  What is utterly foolish and unnecessary is that we should import this fuel oil when we have an abundance of coal. Coal itself is not a currency earner. There has been much talk about the need for exports and I do not want to develop that argument. However, coal is a Currency saver. We have complete control over our native primary energy, coal, and no such control over oil. What happened over Suez, in 1957, vividly illustrates the great danger.
  There is, unfortunately, uncertainty in the oil producing countries of the world due to riots and rebellions although, at the moment, these countries seem reasonably settled and an abundance of fuel is available. There is, however, no guarantee that this will be so in future.
  Venezuela, Iran, Iraq and Indonesia are already well advanced in bringing the oil industries, either developed or potential, under their own control. Some countries are building their own refineries and some are taking control of new explorations, and so on. Iran is taking over the responsibility for the exploration of new oil fields and is seeking for a larger percentage of revenue on the oil. No one can blame these countries for doing this, because they are fighting for their own independence and they want to govern their own resources and control their own economy.
  In January of this year the Arab Economic League recommended that in future the pipelines should be owned by Arab companies. This country is dependent on oil supplies from other countries and is, therefore, in an insecure position.

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  If we leave ourselves in the hands of the oil companies and the pipelines become choked or stopped and we cannot get oil from our normal sources, the alternative is to pay a higher price for American dollar oil. Our dependence on oil leaves us very vulnerable indeed. That is not a pleasant position for this great country to be in, especially when we have primary energy under our feet.
  My second point is opencast mining. I do not know how far the hon. Member for Hexham would go on opencast mining, but, in principle, I agree with him. If there is a shortage of coal, as there was during the war, we should go in for opencast mining. But at present, when there is a lesser demand for coal, it sounds the more commonsense thing to do to reduce opencast operations. I suppose that there is a measure of satisfaction in the knowledge that it is intended to cut opencast working. Let us be thankful for small mercies, but I am not satisfied and I feel very strongly that when we have a surplus of coal the restriction of opencast should preferably occur before the closing down of the pits.
  My chief reason for this point of view, and perhaps I will answer the question of the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine), is that we start with the assumption that there is still a great future for coal, and there is no greater need than to stress this at present. The speech by the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Sir A. Braithwaite) rather depressed me, because he thought there should be a rundown of the whole industry until there was nothing left.
  Speaking for hon. Members on this side of the Committee, we believe that there is a great future for the industry, and we have no intention of allowing the same kind of burial service to take place over this industry as there has been over part of the cotton industry. We believe that if our scientists and technologists are given the support they need they will be capable of creating new uses for our natural wealth, thus solving the problem of what to do with the growing surplus of small coal. When this happens it will naturally lead to Britain needing more coal and not less.
  If these assumptions are correct, and I have every reason to believe that they are, we shall always need plenty of miners to
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  mine the coal. My criticism of the Government is that they have no such thoughts in their mind. If they had, I believe that they would have acted differently and would have called for a bigger restriction on opencast mining. The way the Government have acted proves beyond all doubt that their eyes are only on the immediate rather than the future, about which they do not care.
  What is to be the position when this revival of industrial activity takes place? What is to happen when this great millennium takes place under the Tory Government? I do not believe that it will take place under a Tory Government, but it will under a Labour Government. What will be the position when the need for coal becomes an acute problem? I can assure the Committee that it will not be easy to get the miner who has left the pit and become established in another job to go into the pit again.
  There is a further point which I hope the hon. Member for Essex, South East will note. Once a pit is closed one cannot go back and open it out again immediately. It will take hundreds of thousands of pounds to do that. For those two reasons, and they are solid reasons, plans should be put forward so that there will be a labour force to man the coal when it is needed.
  Opencast has not the same problems. My hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Mr. Fitch) mentioned the position of men if opencast was cut down. Naturally, men are thrown out of work, but they can get a job elsewhere. The miner cannot. The miner is not an ordinary type of man. He is a skilled man who has been trained for the job, and one cannot make a miner in a day. It is that type of man that one has to be careful about and make sure that plenty of them are available in industry to mine the coal when it is needed. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will give us some further assurance on that and perhaps decide to make a further cut in opencast working.
  I appreciate the point about the breaking of a contract. It sounds a dishonest thing to do, but it is more dishonest for the Government to break faith with the National Coal Board. The Coal Board was informed of the Government's plans for the future, but now those plans have gone haywire and the Board does not know where it is.

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  There is an abundance of coal on the ground, far too much, so what is the use of carving up the countryside? I will not say that the land is destroyed, because the restoration of farm land is done in such a way that in a matter of a few years it is quite good again. The hon. Member for Hexham might know more about this, but it takes years because one cannot take the guts out of a thing and expect it to knit together immediately. For this reason alone I believe that an attempt should be made to cut back further opencast working.
  Miss Herbison: Would my hon. Friend agree with me that contracts have been broken before and compensation has been paid, and that compensation should be paid by the Government, since the coal industry paid £70 million for importing coal?
  Mr. Grey: I thank my hon. Friend for her observation. I quite agree that compensation should be paid. I think that the hon. Member for Hexham mentioned that it would be a good investment for the industry, although it should be paid by the Government, of course.
  Finally, I make this further condemnation of the Government. It will be recalled that at the beginning of my speech I referred to the fact that the Government have an inherent dislike of nationalisation. I am convinced that the Government and the whole Tory Party machine will not be satisfied until they have smashed it to pieces.
  Mr. J. C. George: Nonsense.
  Mr. Grey: I am certain that they want to smash the whole machinery. If they wanted it to work, they would have done something more about co-ordination at the top. They would have had a better method of co-ordinating the fuel industry.
  When we nationalised these industries as a road to Socialism, I remember that my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) put the point very well. It was his intention that these three industries should be co-ordinated so that there should be a fuel policy for the future. If the Government and the Tory Party as a whole had any intention of making these nationalised industries work, they would have done that very
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  thing, but they have created a sort of rivalry in the industry between the Coal Board and the Central Electricity Authority and the Gas Council. Despite the difficulties we are in, and the fact that there is only one solution—the coordination of the three industries—the Government have not tried to get them together.
  On 23rd March, my hon. Friend the Member for Normanton (Mr. A. Roberts) asked the Parliamentary Secretary
  "what directions he has given with a view to bringing closer liaison between the National Coal Board, the Central Electricity Authority and the Gas Council."
  The Parliamentary Secretary replied:
  "None, Sir."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd March, 1959; Vol. 602, c. 901.]
  That to some may appear to be a rather flippant reply and to others it might appear to be gross ineptitude, but I do not believe it was either. It proved to me that there was no intention at all of the present Government having a coordinated national fuel policy. Thus, we are to continue to have this uncertainty in our basic industry. More important still, I believe that it reflected the type of mind that does not like nationalisation and is prepared to go to any length to destroy it.
  There are many ways in which one can destroy an institution. This industry has become an institution, it has become part of the country, and it would be criminal to destroy it. The way of causing the sectors in the industry to be divided against themselves is the most insidious way of all of destroying nationalisation. There is only one way in which to deal with this problem and to give some permanence to the industry, from which we are all to derive great wealth and benefit. That way is by co-ordination at the top. I do not mind if that means legislation.
  There should be a central authority coordinating the whole of these sectors and ensuring that each is not going differently from the other. Then the Coal Board could plan ahead. At present, it has not a clue what to do. If such a method were adopted, this great authority, with all its experience, could plan with the certainty which it needs now so badly. If the Government will not do this, the only thing I can say to them is, "Get out and leave room for someone who will."
  7.56 p.m.
  Mr. Bernard Braine: Wherever we sit in this Committee we all appreciate the note of anxiety which has been sounded in this debate, but I cannot help feeling that a great deal of what has been said has been unduly alarmist.
  The right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens), who opened the debate in an otherwise extremely able speech, made what I thought was a rather unworthy reference. He suggested that if we had been experiencing a recession this was something deliberately engineered by the Government. In point of fact, we have been passing through a world-wide trade recession and it can be justly claimed that this country has weathered that recession as well as, if not better than, almost any other industrial country. There are now welcome signs in the United States, Western Europe and this country that we are moving out of that recession. I see that the Economist has estimated that the concessions made by the Chancellor in his Budget should have the effect of stimulating an increase in industrial production of something like 3 per cent. to 4 per cent. this year.
  If, therefore, we are moving into an era of expansion, it may well be, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Speir) said, that coal stocks—which represent only about five or six weeks' consumption—may start to move, that is, that portion of them which can be properly utilised by industry. The right hon. Member for Blyth also mentioned competition from oil as a factor militating against the coal industry. There is a great deal in that. One should recognise, however, that the re-export of refined oil products from this country earns us at least £100 million sterling a year, and there are other benefits which flow from that kind of activity.
  I agree with all who have said in this debate that it is necessary for us to ensure the maximum utilisation of our indigenous raw material, coal. As my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General made clear, the saving of the industry depends on the utilisation of its products in the most economic and efficient manner possible. But it follows from that—and the debate has made it more and more clear—that the opencast method of production is one which simply cannot be sacrificed. Yet, apart from my hon. Friend the Member
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  for Harrow, West (Sir A. Braithwaite) and the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), no one has had a kind word to say about opencast production.
  Unhappily, it is not the facts that matter, but what people believe the facts to be. Opencast working is a target for the miners, who believe that it is taking the bread out of their mouths. It is a target for politicians, who find it a convenient scapegoat, particularly if they have agricultural interests in their constituencies. It is a target for the public, who quite erroneously believe that opencast production is inferior to deep-mined coal.
  Such attitudes are both mistaken and unfair and, as hardly anyone has spoken for opencast methods, the case seems to be going by default. That is a very serious matter. It is a very serious matter for those engaged in the opencast industry—for the operators who have a great amount of capital tied up in plant and machinery and for the 11,000 skilled workers they employ. It is a serious matter for the makers of plant who, on the basis of what they are doing for our home industry, have been building up a substantial export trade. It is also a serious matter to the nation, as I shall presently show.
  It might be helpful to the Committee if I put the matter in perspective, but in doing so I must declare a small interest in that I am a director of an engineering company which has some connection with the industry. The Committee may he aware that Britain is one of the few coal-producing nations which has deliberately held back opencast production in favour of more expensive deep-mined coal. In 1958 opencast output was only about 6·6 per cent. of our total coal production. That compares with a total of 26·8 per cent. in the United States or 50 per cent. of that country's anthracite production. If brown coal be included, which I know is very much easier to work by opencast methods, 98 per cent. of all the coal produced in Eastern Germany and 42·6 per cent. of all the coal produced in Western Germany is produced by opencast methods. It is difficult to obtain any figures for the Soviet Union, but I understand that about two-thirds of all the minerals mined in that country at present are extracted by opencast methods and that in the extensive bituminous fields

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  of the Soviet Union big dragline excavators are used similar to those employed in the United States.
  There are at least three good reasons why other coal-producing countries favour opencast methods. The first is that underground working, as we know only to well in this country, involves very serious physical difficulties and dangers as well as unpleasantness for all who are engaged in extracting the coal—that tough race of men to which our nation, in particular, owes a great deal. The right hon. Member for Easington referred earlier to the closing of pits during the war and to miners joining the Forces. As one who served in a Midland county regiment, I can say that there were no finer and tougher soldiers than those former miners. As hon. Members know from their own personal experience, in the mines the problems of roof support, ventilation and lighting, and the ever-present dangers of gas, explosion and flooding, face these men all the time and these dangers increase as the tunnels go deeper and deeper.
  Secondly, there is the economic argument that it is rarely possible to extract 100 per cent. of the mineral in a deep mine, Other countries have found that the quality of opencast production is in no NA ay inferior and often is superior to deep-mined production. The reason for this is simple. In a deep mine, particularly with mechanical extraction, it is difficult to avoid debris from the shale which lies above the seam or in bands within the seam, becoming mixed with the coal that is extracted. With opencast extraction, done in the daylight, it is possible for scrapers to take off the over-burden, leaving the clean coal exposed. The coal can be removed like the meat in a sandwich. It is not at all surprising, therefore, that the quality of opencast coal, coming from probably the same seam as that of the deep mine some miles away, is very often superior in that it is cleaner.
  Thirdly, foreign countries have found that the development of modern earth-moving machinery, such as large dragline excavators, has meant that it has become more and more efficient and cheaper to mine minerals in this way.
  I would say, therefore, that viewed on the basis of efficiency and cost the case for continuing and—after we have overcome the present difficulty—for expand-
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  ing opencast extraction is unanswerable. Let us look for a moment at the Report of the National Coal Board for last year, dealing with the results of 1957. In that year the output of deep-mined coal remained virtually the same as the year before—at about 210 million tons. The increase of 1·6 million tons in 1957 was due almost entirely to opencast production, since the operators had been able to increase their production by about 12 per cent.
  If we consult the financial results of the Coal Board we can see just how fortunate that increase was, because the Report tells us that the Board's profit on opencast production rose from £8·6 million to £9 million, but the net loss was £5·3 million. In other words, opencast production saved the situation for the Coal Board to the extent of preventing it from going a further £9 million into the red.
  When one breaks down the figures they are even more telling. On each ton of opencast coal the Board earned a net profit of 13s. 9d. compared with 7s. a ton averaged over the industry as a whole. It is not at all surprising, therefore, to find that the Board says in paragraph 42 of the Report:
  "Opencast coal working makes an invaluable contribution to the country's energy requirements."
  One might add that it is making an indispensable contribution to the Board's revenue.
  I recognise—and this has been made clear in the debate—that we must not judge the issue wholly on economic grounds. We are concerned, after all, with miners and their families, with whole communities and the social pattern of considerable parts of the country. If I were not aware of that, there are plenty of hon. Members from mining constituencies here who would remind me. But it is clear to me from some speeches which have been made and also from previous exchanges in the House that the opencast coal industry is not being judged on its merits at all. It has to face a fierce political prejudice based more often than not on wholly erroneous conceptions. It has been said in the debate—and I challenge this—that grave damage is being done to agricultural land and that there is a substantial loss of food production. That is just not true.
  Mr. William Ainsley: I could show the hon. Member some of the land which has been subject to opencast operation. He would be able to hear the observations of the farming community, who would tell him about land deteriorating for as long as seven or eight years afterwards.
  Mr. Braine: There is no doubt that instances can be found. The hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Fitch) mentioned one in his constituency, and I do not quarrel with the assertion of the hon. Member for Durham, North-West (Mr. Ainsley). No doubt there are instances where this is so. On the other hand, I can quote a number of instances of the reverse taking place. I have here a volume of photographs showing land under healthy cultivation, under crops or with cattle grazing. I can give example after example in which, as a result of restoration, land previously of poor agricultural quality has been improved in the sense that it has been aerated, levelled, properly fenced, better drained and with new access roads put in. There are many such cases. I assure the hon. Member of that.
  The point I want to make is that, taking the country as a whole, the value of the coal extracted is just over one hundred times the value of the agricultural product which would have been produced on the land had it not been taken into opencast coal production. The economics of the matter are unanswerable, although I agree that, while opencast operation is taking place, a peaceful vale may well became temporarily a hideous mound of rubble. It is ugly to the eye. It makes one feel that the fair land of Britain is being ravaged.
  I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary, however, that the National Coal Board might well organise a series of visits by hon. Members who have doubts on the subject both to sites where there has not been quite the success which was hoped for and the kind of restoration to which I have referred.
  How much land is involved? Only 120,000 acres have been taken for opencast production since the scheme started in the war years. Eighty-four thousand acres have since been returned to agricultural and other users. Only about 36,000 acres are in current use, and that is likely to be a fairly stable figure.
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  Moreover, in considering disturbance it should not be forgotten that the deep mines of this country over the years have in many cases caused subsidence and fracturing of the strata, which have not had a temporary but a permanently deleterious effect, both upon the mine itself and upon the ground above it. This is part of the cost paid for coal extraction. But then this country is built on coal. It owes its life and existence to coal. I agree with the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Grey) that there is still a bright future for coal, provided that we face these problems together realistically.
  If, therefore, opencast coal makes a fair, useful economic contribution to the coal industry, this side of the industry is just as entitled to expect fair treatment from the Government, from the National Coal Board and from Parliament as any other part of the industry. It is entitled to some assurance that it will not be sacrificed to blind prejudice and ill-considered political pressures.
  The Committee should face the fact squarely that on a man-power basis opencast mining is the most efficient part of the Board's operations. The figures I am about to quote are those for 1957. The figures since then are even better. In deep mines the average output per man, on the basis of a labour force of about 710,000 men, was 296 tons. In opencast mining, on a basis of a labour force of 10,500, it was 1,240 tons. In other words, opencast mining is producing four times as much per man engaged as deep mining. Indeed, when the very largest machines are used I am advised that the output per man is nearly seven times greater.
  Opencast mining is very much cheaper. It produces the kind of coal which we must produce if we are to recover the coal markets to which reference was made earlier. It is producing large coal now. Is it a surprise to hon. Members to know that in many parts of the coalfields large coal recovered by opencast methods is being mixed with deep-mined coal in order to raise the quality of the latter?
  I suggest that the National Coal Board is not likely to welcome suggestions that this side of its industry, which, after all, produces only a small percentage of the total for the industry as a whole, should be further restricted or closed down.

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  I suggest that there are two arguments which can be adduced from these facts. First, deep mining is still a dangerous occupation. Surely it is economic non-sense and socially unsound to hold back a safe method of coal extraction in order to keep men in deep mines.
  Having said that, I accept everything which has been said today about the necessity for ensuring that, if there is to be contraction—I may be wrong, but I do not believe that contraction over the next few years need be very great—there should be a concentration of the men around the new pits which are coming into production now or which are being reconstructed and will come into production later on.
  Of course, we should take into account the social factors involved. I accept that there is a moral duty and obligation upon us to do that. But, in order to prevent a natural contraction due to changing economic circumstances, do not let us clamp down on a method of production which is safe, clean and economic and which produces coal at a fantastically cheap price.
  May I make this point to the hon. Member for Durham, whose sincerity in this matter I do not impugn for one moment? He mentioned the possibility of cancelling contracts. The right hon. Member for Easington paid a generous tribute to those who went into opencast mining during the war and after it. Those operators who responded to the national call embarked upon the purchase of a great deal of heavy, complicated and extremely expensive plant, a good deal of which in the early days could not be obtained in this country and had to be imported with scarce dollars from the United States of America. If these machines are to be employed economically and lf coal is to be produced cheaply, they cannot be written off in a short space of time. Some reasonable assurance must be given to this section of the industry that they will have continuity.
  My right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General said—I thought that he was very wise to say this—that we ought not to be panicked into cutting down production. If, then, there is to be retrenchment, which is bad enough, it would he fantastically stupid to shut down the most profitable part of the industry.
  8.18 p.m.
  Mr. Albert Roberts: Before I go my own way I should like to make one or two observations on the opinions just expressed by the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Mr. Braine). The hon. Member said that opencast mining was profitable and welcome. Can the hon. Member produce a certificate from the National Farmers' Union saying that its members are unanimously in favour of opencast working? In my constituency I have seen many opencast sites. I know that there was a time when this coal was needed.
  The hon. Member for Essex, South-East spoke about first-class restoration. He went even further and alleged that the land afterwards is in better condition than it was hitherto. If one starts to analyse the whole cost of opencast mining and talks about the return from land used for farming, one must understand that land for farming goes on for a long time. If land has lost its fertility for all time, the reward from opencast mining is very small indeed compared with what could be obtained from good farming land. I will say a word or two about that later.
  I wish to say this about the Paymaster-General's opening speech. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has gone to seek refreshment. He has been sitting here all afternoon. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman must feel that the consensus of opinion expressed in this Chamber today has been more or less against the non-action of the Government. All hon. Members must appreciate that the opportunity has been afforded them today to debate a very important subject. We are debating it because we feel that the difficulties the industry is facing at present are the responsibility of the Government.
  A few years ago the Government gave their glowing estimate of what was needed. The advertisements attracting recruits into the mining industry have all come from the opposite side of the Committee. As my hon. Friend the Member for Durham (Mr. Grey) has reminded the Committee, when, on 23rd March last, I asked the Parliamentary Secretary about what co-ordination was being arranged in the various Departments I was told that nothing was being done. One can only infer from that that the Government's policy is one of drift.

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  Four years ago the then Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the standard of living would be doubled in twenty-five years, and that an annual increase in production of 3 per cent. would be required to bring it about. We failed miserably in that respect in 1957 and 1958, and now we have the present industrial recession upon us. We are allowing a very important industry, one that has been the backbone of the nation for generations, to decline. Mention has been made from the other side of the Chamber of the restraint shown only a short time ago by the men in the industry. They could have broken the country's economy at any time they wished, but they realised that the prosperity of the United Kingdom depended upon their efforts.
  The Paymaster-General expressed his pleasure that nobody has so far decried the nation's efforts in the field of nuclear energy, but I am not so sure of all this. The United State of America, Canada and Australia are relying upon cheap coal. The Ministry itself has said that it is anticipated that, by 1965, 15 per cent. of our total energy production will be from nuclear sources, but the estimated amount of nuclear energy in Canada, the United States and Australia at that time is 1 per cent. We must take cognisance of that very important point.
  The Paymaster-General said how wonderful and how full of promise this source of enegry is, but I think that when it comes to be analysed we shall find that the country has been "sold a pup." What we are concerned about is electricity, no matter how it is produced. We are concerned with an end-product that is cheap and beneficial to industry, but those of us who are concerned with the coal industry are alarmed at the declining use of coal. In the first fifteen weeks of this year, compared with the same period in 1958, the gas industry used 9·5 per cent. less coal; the electricity industry, 4·4 per cent. less; the railways, 10·4 per cent.; coke ovens, 15.7 per cent; iron and steel, 18·2 per cent., and the engineering and metal trades, 16·4 per cent. less.
  Such figures as those are sufficient to explain the apprehension in mining and industrial areas at present, an apprehension that we hon. Members from the mining areas hear expressed every week.
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  It should be remembered that in 1946–47 we were producing coal uneconomically—we were losing pounds on every ton of it. We knew it, but there was a scramble for coal then. In 1951, 1952 and 1953 we were still told that there was a scramble for coal and that we must exert every ounce of strength we had to produce it. I do not believe the Paymaster-General when he says that the pits are being closed because they are uneconomic. They are being closed because we are over-producing, but no notice has been given about the closures, and no preparation made for them. As has been said today, these closures have not only economic but social consequences.
  We are experiencing extremely severe competition from oil, and this question should be very carefully examined. We were told by the oil people, individually, "Do not be afraid of oil. It is only complementary to coal." We know that the oil industry is an international one; that it has no scruples, and that is prepared to sell oil at a loss to get established, regardless of the consequences to those whose efforts in the mines have sustained the country for so many years—
  Mr. Osborne: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that the cheapest oil sold in this country is being offered to us by the Soviet at just about half the price that the Anglo-American companies are charging; and that if the President of the Board of Trade is to get more trade with Russia the only way to get it is for the Russians to sell more oil here? Does he propose to stop Russian oil coming into this country?
  Mr. Roberts: I keep in mind the policy of the U.S.S.R., and what it all means. Industry must have cheap and abundant power. I want to see that. I want to see cheap coal—but not cheap miners. I remember the awful experience in former years, when we were far down the list of wage earners and attacked from all sides. The cry then was for cheap coal, and cheap miners were wanted, but I hope that those conditions have gone for good.
  More can be done in the gas industry, on which unfair attacks have been made. Research is going on, but a greater effort could be made to use some of our inferior fuels to produce high-pressure gas. The experiments being conducted at Solihull

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  and at Westfield, in Scotland, could be extended. I am sure that the gas industry can stand on its own feet. Competition from oil and electricity is causing difficulties, but if the industry puts itself about a little it can do a great deal more with the inferior fuels than is at present being done. I am convinced that in view of the amount of capital that has already been sunk into the electricity and gas industries, these industries can produce at competitive rates.
  I wish to say a word about nuclear energy. I want to see this industry progress. I know that there is an ever-changing pattern in industry and that we have to try to keep pace with it and to tit into it. At the same time, it is as well to examine the facts now and again. I shall quote from an article by Mr. Stretch, who was works manager at Calder Hall from 1954 to 1957. The article is entitled:
  "Is Britain on the Right Track? "
  Mr. Stretch says:
  "The starting point for such a discussion must be Sir Christopher Hinton's Axel Johnson Lecture given in Stockholm in March, 1957, particularly as his opinion must carry weight in the Ministry of Power and the projected nuclear programme announced seems based on the analysis that he proposed there. The paper was indeed a valiant attempt to reduce crystal gazing to a science. Unfortunately, Hinton's high reputation has discouraged the ruthless examination of figures. assumptions and techniques which a paper of this importance demands As a result, his suggestion that nuclear power would be cheaper than coal-based power by about 1965 is now quoted as an established fact and the whole of our power generating programme has been geared it."
  Mr. Stretch was a very qualified person. It may well be 1980 before nuclear energy strikes parity with coal. In the traditional power station it is the industry which carries the cost, whereas the taxpayer bears the cost of nuclear power. It is costing millions of pounds. The Paymaster-General may well be the Postmaster-General in six years' time when these matters are brought into the light. We are being "kidded on". The Ministers who are responsible for these matters are, without doubt, experts in the art of "kidology". I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary is taking note of these points relating to nuclear energy, because Mr. Stretch's article certainly merits examination.
  I want to refer to what was said by the Minister of Fuel and Power in 1955:
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  "To sum up, we cannot do without the coal industry transformed and reinvigorated to match the needs of modern Britain. … Indeed, there lies before us a fuel battle for some years to come which will be hard to win. But the Government's fuel policy, I dare to say, gives us grounds for confidence."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th July, 1955; Vol. 544, c. 392.]
  Let us hope that we can look forward with confidence. It is not the job of the Opposition to put forward a fuel and power policy. That is the Government's responsibility. However, we can give them a policy if they will accept it.
  I hope that this debate will give some measure of comfort to the miners, will reassure them that proper planning will take place and that if there has to be a gradual slowing down it will be done in a humane way, so that other industries can take up any slack which may result. The miners are always ready to play their part, but they do not want to go back to the dark days of the 1920s and 1930s.
  8.34 p.m.
  Mr. G. B. H. Currie: I am sure that we all profoundly agree with the concluding observations of the hon. Member for Normanton (Mr. A. Roberts). Some of us are old enough to remember the very troubled days when there was extensive unemployment in the mining industry and other industries in this country, but I really believe that we take too pessimistic a view if we even contemplate the possibility of days such as those returning.
  I prefer the considered view of my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General, in his opening speech this afternoon, when he took, I thought, a not overoptimistic view of the future, but certainly a view which was not gloomy. It was obviously a considered view and one on which he, at all events, and my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, together with my noble Friend the Minister, were in some measure basing the outlook of the Department for the future. For my part, I feel satisfied—perhaps that is a foolish thing to feel in this place—about the future outlook not only from the point of view of the miners and those engaged in the electricity industry, the gas industry and other industries largely dependent upon coal mining, but from the point of view of the ordinary consumer.
  The hon. Member for Normanton will forgive me if I confine my observations

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  this evening to the position of the consumer. This has been an excellent debate, but I do not consider that enough importance has been attached to the point of view of the consumer. Few speakers have referred at all to the man at the other end, the consumer who has to pay. My right hon. Friend gave some attention to the consumer, and I liked his definition of the objects of his Ministry. As he defined them—paraphrasing them now—they were to provide coal in sufficient quantities, at an economic price, and at the right place. I think he included "at the right place"; if he did not, I hope that, on reflection, he will, because I feel that it should be a matter of particular concern to us this evening.
  As the Committee knows, I represent a constituency in Northern Ireland. We have heard much today about the use of our indigenous commodity, coal. which lies under the ground in such profusion. In Northern Ireland and in Eire, unfortunately, we do not have that indigenous commodity lying under our soil. Geologists tell us that glacial action in the Ice Age removed the carboniferous deposits which at that time lay under our soil, scouring them away, so that the whole of Ireland, North and South, is virtually bereft of coal. Thus, we in Northern Ireland and our neighbours in Eire import all our coal and all our fuel from the United Kingdom. We are therefore dependent on the production of coal and on the supplies of oil which come through this country for use in Northern Ireland. People in Eire are in the same boat.
  The price and quality of the coal supplied to us in Northern Ireland are of considerable concern to us. Our industries are dependent on this product and our people are dependent on it for their employment. Our domestic consumers are dependent on it for the heating of their homes and for protection against the elements. At times we have a particularly damp and wet climate in Northern Ireland.
  Many of us are somewhat alarmed at the steadily increasing price of coal and the detrimental effect of a poorer quality of coal than we used to have. Before the war and before nationalisation, I am told that we in Northern Ireland obtained the bulk of our coal from the Scottish
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  coal fields. Here I pay a tribute to hon. Members who come from Scotland. Scotland supplied to us coal of the very highest quality at prices which were well within the reach of the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland. We received excellent coal at an economic and competitive price.
  The right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) is not present, unfortunately, but he had something to say about the birth of the National Coal Board. Indeed, as I understood his speech, he took a measure of responsibility for the setting up of the organisation and for its early days. It has been a difficult child. Perhaps in some ways it has been an illegitimate child. However, it has taken a long time to get through its teething troubles and has cost its parents very dearly. When one considers the price of coal, one realises this. Scotland, which under private enterprise supplied enough coal for us in Northern Ireland, is today not only unable to supply us with coal but has itself to import coal from the northern part of England. This is a curious commentary on the working of the National Coal Board, but I do not want to go into that. The National Coal Board is in being and we must accept it. No one today has suggested any measure for returning the mines to private industry.
  Therefore, in Northern Ireland we must obtain our coal from the English coal fields. I am told that our supplies come from Lancashire, Derbyshire, and North-East England. I am also told that the freightage costs to port head are computed in such a way that the f.o.b. price at Merseyside, which is the place from which most coal is shipped, is a level price irrespective of the distance of the haul. We then have to pay a sum which approximates to £2 a ton for the carriage and distribution of the coal in Northern Ireland. Hon. Members can well see that the price of delivered coal in Northern Ireland is found my many of our citizens to be beyond their means and this inflicts great hardship, not only on our industry, but on individual consumers.
  When we submit ourselves to these prices, however, and to a quality which we consider to be much poorer than it was before the war, we turn our eyes southwards and many of our constituents say to us, "How comes it that the

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  National Coal Board supplies coal to Eire at prices infinitely lower than those obtaining in Northern Ireland?" I know the explanation, that we must look for export markets for our coal, as, I agree, we must, but it seems to me to be very curious that Eire, so close to Northern Ireland, should be used as an export market when there is the possibility of coal being sent over the border from Eire into Northern Ireland at prices that would defeat the National Coal Board prices in a shipment straight from Merseyside.
  Because one should not criticise unless one is constructive, I ask my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, who is to reply to the debate, whether it might (not be possible to "postalise" the delivery charges of coal in the United Kingdom. Consumers in London and in the southern part of England and the South-West pay a higher price for coal by virtue of delivery charges because of distance from the pithead than do consumers who live nearer to the pits. We in Northern Ireland pay most of all because of the sea haul in the journey from the pithead to our part of the United Kingdom.
  "Postalisation" would be fair to all residents in the United Kingdom. It would help in the decentralisation of industry, which would help with our unemployment problem, and I think it would be acceptable to all who live in the United Kingdom. I sincerely ask my hon. Friend to give this matter consideration to see whether he could make a suitable recommendation to the Ministry, in which he plays such an outstanding part.
  I was delighted to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Sir A. Braithwaite) refer to the possibility of laying an electric cable between South-West Scotland and Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Normanton referred to the possibilities of nuclear power. I think that for Northern Ireland those possibilities still lie a long way ahead.
  One of the problems is that in all our individual countries—in England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Eire—the peak period of load very often does not coincide and yet each of us must be prepared at any time in our generation of electric current to cope with a peak load. European countries have appreciated the advantages of a cable connection between the individual countries. In
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  Canada there is a submarine cable which has been laid to connect Vancouver Island with the mainland.
  I can see no reason whatever why we in the United Kingdom should not take advantage of similar opportunities. The advantages are enormous. Over here we have a national grid. On a period of off-peak load Northern Ireland could supply current to the National Grid over here. On periods of off-peak load over here this country could supply current to Northern Ireland. The advantage would, of course, lie with us, because we must pay approximately £2 a ton for every ton of coal shipped across the Channel. We must pay that additional £2 by way of freightage charge.
  I would ask my hon. Friend to look at this. We would not be adverse to cooperation with Eire. It might be a very happy way to find co-operation, if Eire could be persuaded to come into this grid. The advantages might be enormous, and I hope that this problem will be examined.
  In conclusion, I would say to my hon. Friend that we are completely satisfied that the Government have done everything possible to help the National Coal Board, the producing body, to go ahead, and we wish it well.
  8.52 p.m.
  Mr. William Blyton (Houghton-leSpring): We have had a long debate today. In opening it my right hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) attempted to lay before the Committee the serious situation in what I would term a splendid speech, and I am very sorry that the Paymaster-General dealt flippantly with the case my right hon. Friend presented. His speech demanded a more serious answer from the principal Government spokesman than the one we got.
  Many of the question which have been raised in the speeches of my right hon. and hon. Friends I hope to answer as I go along with my own speech. I would say to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Sir P. Roberts) that though I disagreed with many of his arguments I did agree with the appeal he made to his own Front Bench to stop at some point their reliance on oil because he believed it had gone far enough.

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  I would say to the hon. and gallant Member for South Fylde, (Colonel Lancaster), who talked about the guaranteed week which the miners have, that, if we would abolish it, it would mean a four-day week or short time for the miners. I warn the Government that the miners will fight to maintain this condition of employment, and that if there is any attempt to interfere with it there certainly will be industrial strife.
  This is the third time during the last twelve months that we have tried to get the Government to tell us what their policy is for the fuel and power industries of the nation. We have pointed out exactly what we would have to face. We raised this matter on 14th July, 1958, and again on a Private Member's Motion on 6th February this year, and though the situation in the coal industry is getting serious no policy is yet forthcoming from the Government as to what part our own coal is to play in the economy of our country in the future. I have come to the conclusion that the Government could not care less.
  Lords Mills, Minister of Power, in a letter to the National Union of Mineworkers, dated 5th March this year, said, of the Government's policy:
  "At the same time, in considering the national interest, they must have regard to the need for an abundant, cheap and efficient supply of fuel if our national products are to keep their place in the world."
  He stated, further:
  "They believe that to continue to afford the consumer a choice of various fuels freely competing with one another is the best way to secure over-all efficiency and keep down costs."
  That was the policy, I remember, in 1919, 1920 and 1930. It ruined the coal industry and had serious results for our people who sought their livelihood in the mines. It was the competition of cheap supplies of power that closed collieries between the wars, that made our villages derelict, caused widespread unemployment, brought down miners' wages to 6s. 6½d. a day, ruined the export trade of Durham, Cumberland, Northumberland and Wales, caused two great industrial upheavals in 1921 and 1926, and made it impossible for youths to get work from the time they left school until we had another war in 1939.
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  It created a hatred and a bitterness that we had thought, during the last four years, that we had left behind. When we nationalised the gas, electricity and coal industries we contemplated that we would get co-ordination, not the insane competition the Government have created, which is proving disastrous. Government policy now, quite plainly, is to play off coal against oil. A price war in the public industries is suicidal and is bound, in the long run, to do permanent harm to all those industries.
  I listened to Lord Mills at the Institute of Petroleum dinner, in February. There is no doubt that he is oil-minded. He most certainly gave oil the green light that night, and coal can expect no help from him. I regard Lord Mills and the Minister of Education, who was formerly Minister of Fuel and Power, as the two greatest disasters for the coal industry that we have seen since we nationalised it.
  If the policy is that our energy needs should be supplied in the cheapest markets, why do not the Minister and the Government tell us what this policy will do to our standard of life in the coal industry? I cannot understand why, in publicly-owned fuel industries, the Government should expect to get coal below the cost of production and, if they cannot get it, should threaten a price war by resorting to the use of oil.
  The Government should recognise that unemployment has its price in exactly the same way as oil, and that to create unemployment in the coal industry by extending the use of oil will be a costly affair. We must add to the price of oil the huge amount we shall have to pay in unemployment benefit. The social consequences of closing mines and bringing poverty to mining villages cannot be measured in money values. Unless we are to leave many men on the scrap-heap, as we did between the wars, we shall have to bring work to these areas, which will become destitute as a result of the Government's policy.
  It is crazy economics to think that this country should depend on foreign imports for a great part of its fuel requirements and so make miners unemployed. It is about time that the Government economists looked at this side of the picture. Four years ago the industry was booming. It is only two years ago that

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  hon. Gentlemen opposite were severely criticising us because our men were refusing to take Hungarians into the pits.
  We were told by the Minister, in 1955, when there was a great demand for coal and power, that these demands would grow in the years ahead. We were told that our standard of life would double in the next twenty-five years and that to achieve our energy programme in the future it had to be augmented by oil and nuclear energy. In fact, we were told that we had never had it so good.
  The plan then was for our mines to produce 240 million tons by 1965, and the Board was instructed to plan to that end. That plan is dead, and it ought to be stated now what part coal is to play in the future of our economy in the light of the changed pattern of consumption which has been deliberately encouraged by the Government.
  I know there are those who say that the economy will expand in the years ahead and that everything will be all right. I do not believe this for one moment. Just as the Government are contracting the cotton industry, so I consider that the post-war years of mining will be repeated and that the Government's present policy will still mean a contraction in mining even if there is a revival in our economy.
  In 1957, consumption of coal fell by 7 million tons and in 1958 by 13 million tons and consumption in 1959, if it continues at its present rate, will be 17 million tons less than last year. If the loss runs at its present rate it will mean that we shall have lost 37 million tons over the three years.
  In the first sixteen weeks of this year, consumption is down by 5,205,000 tons compared with last year. Output is down by 2,400,000 tons, though productivity is the highest it has ever been in the history of the mining industry. Stocks at the pithead and opencast sites have risen to 22,100,000 tons, which I believe is the maximum the Government have said can he tolerated. On the other hand, the labour force has been reduced by nearly 28,000 in a year, and we are not yet in a position to bring output into line with demand.
  Therefore, do the Government intend to give assistance in stockpiling over the 22 million tons which they say they can tolerate? If not, and if demand continues
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  to fall, the mining industry will be faced not with a redeployment of labour, but with unemployment. If we have to face the issue of bringing output into line with demand, it will not mean merely 37 pits to be closed this year as a result of the Board's decision last December. We shall face not only the closing of collieries with ten or eleven years of life in them, but the closing of efficient pits, with large reserves of coal, upon which there has been much capital expenditure.
  I believe I heard the Paymaster-General say that the Government intend to increase stocks this year above the amount of 22 million tons. I wonder whether 1955 will be repeated. The Government refused a price increase before the General Election, and then it went up afterwards. Do the Government intend to stockpile until the General Election is over and then leave our men to face the full impact if they get back to power? Some of our investments which produce gas coal for the London market will be hit if the crazy economics prevail of one part of industry using imported energy fuels and reducing its requirements for our own fuel. Not only will the gas areas be affected. Every area in the country will be affected, because there are stockpiles at every pit in the land.
  I want for a moment to look at the gas industry, the electricity and oil prices and price policy, and the need for a future fuel policy. Gas consumption of coal dropped by 3 million tons last year, and on the basis of the present figures it looks as if there will be a drop of a further 1½ million tons this year. Many of us thought that demand in 1960 to 1965 would be higher than in 1956 when it consumed 27·8 million tons.
  It is no good blinking the fact that the gas industry is now as oil-minded as the Minister himself and is planning for a substantial and continuous fall in coal requirements. The Gas Council is to use oil for gasification purposes to take the place of coal. There are 40 gasification plants now in operation or under construction. There are two plants for reforming refinery gas, and a trial plant for using liquid methane. This means that these plants will produce 187 million cubic feet per day, equivalent to the carbonisation of nearly 5 million tons of coal per annum. While the gas industry is looking forward to the gasification of

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  low grade small coal, that does not alter the fact that the gas industry is using more oil and oil gases. It is placing important emphasis on this and it has plans to import liquid methane.
  A few years ago it was estimated by the Gas Council that its requirements would be 31 million tons of coal in 1966. Now it estimates that its requirements will be 21·5 million tons in 1966, a drop of nearly 10 million tons in its future estimate of the use of coal. This will have a serious effect on the gas coal producing areas of Durham and South Yorkshire. There are 43 pits producing gas coal in Durham and six of the smallest are scheduled for exhaustion in eleven years' time. The remainder are long-life pits, with vast resources and upon which vast capital sums have been spent.
  The present position is that if the trends in the gas industry continue not only will the pits in Durham with eleven years of life close, but the modern collieries, with all the money spent on them in the reorganisation programme, will close as well. There is need for a policy to ensure that large capital sums will not be wasted on those pits while, at the same time, there is equally large capital expenditure on the construction of ships to bring in liquid methane which will result in the closure of these collieries and putting miners out of work. I have just left some people who work in the gas producing areas of the South and they are equally upset because the use of liquid methane in gas processing will mean unemployment for the gas workers as well.
  The Government have made it clear that their policy is what they term "consumers' choice". If that is to be the unalterable position of the Government, we have to face the fact that methane and oil can be imported until gas can be used more cheaply than coal can be produced. That will mean the pronouncing of the death sentence by the Government on the gas-producing coal mining areas. When stocking ceases, as it shortly must, what alternative will the Coal Board have but to shut down not uneconomic pits, but those with long life upon which we have spent so much money? With this policy there is bound to be unemployment in the mines, with all the social consequences to the people in the mining villages.
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  I want now to refer to the production of electricity. I have said before, and I now repeat, that the Government struck a vital blow at coal when they made contracts with the oil companies and put generating stations on to the use of oil. In that respect, we have lost a market using 4½ million to 5 million tons of coal, and it is the most important market, since it takes small coal.
  When the then Minister of Fuel and Power, now the Minister of Education, told us in 1955 that generating stations were to go on to dual firing and that it would take only a few days to change them back to coal, none of us thought that in the offing there were eight-year agreements with the oil companies to take this market from the coal industry. We did not find out about that until the end of last year.
  I consider that that market is lost for good. If we got it back, a huge amount of compensation would have to be paid. It might be that we will have to face paying compensation to get that market back, but it is a little hard, after spending £70 million on importing coal when there was a shortage, that we should now have to consider compensating the oil companies so that we can get back a natural market which was ours before the Minister of Fuel and Power sold us to oil in these eight-year contracts with the oil companies.
  The bright side of the electricity picture is that demand will increase in the years ahead, until by 1965 it is 9 million or 10 million tons. Beyond that, everything will depend on whether the new power stations are to use oil, nuclear power, or coal. The Coal Board will supply the coal and it is vital that coal should be used as far as posible. It is especially important to the mining industry, because this form of consumption uses so much general purpose small coal.
  Another feature of the Government's policy is found in coastal shipping. The carrying of coal to the gas and electricity industries from our coal ports gives considerable employment to seafarers. Coastwise shipping interests are already very alarmed. Viscount Runciman, in another place, told the Government that the eight-year contracts with the oil companies had done great harm to coast-wise shipping. The Gas Council's present policy will also inflict another blow on

  137
  coastal shipping if it continues to go over to the use of oil. Shipowners will not only not replenish their fleets, but will not expand their fleets if they do not have any encouragement to do so.
  Further inroads are being made by individual consumers changing over to the use of oil. More than 600 consumers converted to oil in 1958, representing a rate of 1¾ million tons of coal per annum. That is bad enough, but the trend continues. According to my latest information, another 200 consumers are converting to oil, involving another 1 million tons of coal, while 380 consumers are considering the change over, involving another 1 million tons of coal this year. This means a further reduction in our market of 3¼ million tons.
  It is as well to observe that the question of the discrimination against coal under the Clean Air Act is now under active consideration. I notice that in a letter to the National Union of Mineworkers the Minister stated that the Minister of Housing and Local Government was now considering the practicability of exempting modern mechanical stokers from the provisions of the Act. All I can say is that I am pleased that this discrimination against coal is likely to be removed. I do not forget that the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) rebuked me when I made a statement about this in the debate on 6th February.
  Another factor is that all the Coal Board's marketing and research will have to concentrate on producing smokeless fuel to meet the requirements of the Clean Air Act if we want to maintain our domestic markets. The Board will have to equip itself with large additional quantities of smokeless fuel and it must develop this new market. If the Board does not do it then other people will, because, as more smokeless zones are created under the Act, the demand will be greater; and if we do not do it oil most certainly will do it for us.
  Now I come to opencast mining. We always regarded opencast mining, and Saturday working as a stout cushion for us if there was a recession in our industry. In fact, this undertaking was given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. P. Noel-Baker) when he was Minister of Fuel and Power. We agreed to opencast mining only when
  138
  there was a shortage of coal. We never regarded it as a permanent feature of our industry.
  If contracts have been entered into, and it is necessary to pay compensation to end them, it will create such financial losses that I consider it impossible for them to be carried on the Board's finances. What is needed is an orderly contraction of opencast production. In the next three to five years opencast mining ought to be run down to 3 million tons per annum and kept at that figure until we can abolish it entirely without paying compensation.
  Sir P. Roberts: How would the hon. Member deal with the £9 million profit which opencast mining is now making?
  Mr. Blyton: If the hon. Member would allow me to finish the statement I have to make, he might find the answer in my speech.
  My reasons for saying this are that the Board's investment in opencast machinery was £5 million in 1957. I know that contractors have large investments in specialised plant, and that for loss of their contracts they would claim for that plant and work lost, in addition to heavy costs for preliminary work and for compensation to tenants, which is spread over the whole output from the site. The loss will be very high if incurred without full working of the coal on the site.
  In my opinion, the total of these contracts—and I only give it as a guess—would be six times the amount of £5 million that the Board has invested in opencast. If we face a figure of £40 million, that, as I see it, cannot be carried on the finances of the Board, hence my wanting an orderly contraction of opencast production to avoid what would be a terrible financial burden in the economic circumstances of today.
  I am against opencast mining. I should like to see this easily got coal kept as an insurance for our future, but the losses to face by way of financial compensation are so great that I am reluctantly forced to the opinion that I have just expressed.
  The last thing I want to see is our getting into a price war either with oil or coal. That brought too much destitution in the years which have gone. I do not want a repetition of that insane policy. Cheap coal can only be got by

  139
  cheap miners. It would lead to an attack on the standards of life established during the years of nationalisation. That policy would mean industrial strife on a scale that we saw in the past.
  We shall most certainly have to do our best in the export market, but not at the expense of having a price war. That would mean the impoverishment not only of ourselves, but of miners all over the world. In my day, when competing with the Continent, we found that every time we had worse conditions, and the price was reduced, the Germans and French went one better, and the vicious circle started to revolve again.
  I return to the question of the Select Committee's recommendation last year, the price policy and freedom of the Board in this matter. Although the oil companies have scheduled prices, they use other prices as seem to them desirable, and it is known that many consumers of fuel oil have a price below scheduled prices. Leading officials of the oil companies have expressed the view that flexibility of prices is essential in the sale of oil or coal, but there are vital differences between the powers and responsibilities of the oil companies, on the one hand, and the Coal Board, on the other.
  Under the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act, the Board is bound to avoid undue or unreasonable preference or advantage. The provisions of that Act have an important effect. There is a strong political feeling that customers are entitled to absolute parity in the matter of price, but that does not apply to oil. I say to the Government, on the price policy issue, that if they believe in a free-for-all economy, if they believe in free competition, they ought to take the handcuffs off the Coal Board and let it enter the competitive field on a fair basis.
  I say to the Government that the day is coming, and may come more rapidly than we think, when the oil-producing countries will take over their oilfields for themselves. I cannot see that being prevented in future. Iraq is heading for the take-over of the oilfields. The Cairo conference of oil-producing countries is a warning of what will happen in future. If we make our economy dependent on oil there will come a day when we shall not only pay an economic price for oil, but will most probably be held to ransom.
  140
  There are no great profits to be made in coal, but there are great profits in oil. Hence we find the Government lending their weight to the profit-making oil barons against the coal industry of this country.
  I say to the Government, quite frankly, that the people believe that this is a deliberate Government policy of downing the coal industry. They do not intend to denationalise it, but we are convinced that they intend to murder it. Because we believe that, because the livelihood of our men is at stake, because we believe that it is not sound national policy to carry on in the way the Government are carrying on, and because we are not prepared to see tragedy brought to our people, I shall most certainly ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to divide against the Government tonight.
  9.25 p.m.
  The Deputy-Chairman (Sir Gordon Touche): Sir Ian Horobin.
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power (Sir Ian Horobin)rose—
  Mr. Hamilton: On a point of order. In view of the fact that, unaccountably. no Scottish hon. Member has been called in the debate, Sir Gordon, and in view of the further fact that we are unlikely to hear anything new from the Parliamentary Secretary, do you not think it right and proper to call a Scottish Member to speak now?
  The Deputy-Chairman: That is not a point of order. Sir Ian Horobin.
  Sir I. Horobin: Until the last interjection and the last speech, on the whole this has been a very serious debate on both side of the Committee. I confess that one is warned to be a little careful, by some slips by acknowledged experts. For instance, one of my hon. Friends surprised hon. Members on both sides of the Committee by quoting a figure for prewar exports which was 100 millon tons wrong, and another made a suggestion for assisting the industry which he said would bring in £30 million a year and which in fact would bring in about £3 million. If I make mistakes, which I hope I shall not, I shall at any rate be doing so in. good company.

  141
  We have also heard a certain number of hardy annuals. We have had the suggestion that there are vast sums to be obtained out of the distributive side of the industry. One need only point out that the National Coal Board, producing and selling at the same prices as other people, in the north-western area, does not find the distribution of coal a gold mine.
  In these miscellaneous points with which I shall deal first, I should like to reply to the suggestion by the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Robens) about the dumping of oil. Our information is, generally speaking, that there is nothing in that point at all, although if he will give information of a particular case we will look into it. He himself seems to have fallen into an error which did not vitiate his main contention but which we might as well put right. He said that about three-quarters of our fuel oil came from abroad. I think that he has fallen into the error of not noticing that we export very large quantities. If we ignore even bunkers and so on, the net imports from abroad are only about one-tenth of total consumption.
  Mr. Robens: I said three-quarters of the increase in fuel oil, not three-quarters of the total.
  Sir I. Horobin: I may have misheard the right hon. Gentleman. I thought that he said three-quarters were imports.
  A suggestion was made about the possibility of a power line to Northern Ireland. That has been considered, and our information is that it could not hold out any hope of being competitive with supplies available to them.
  I should like to make one or two observations on the speech of the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell). To use his own phrase "stripped of its verbiage," what his suggestion amounted to was that the coal industry should receive a subsidy either from the taxpayer or from the electricity consumer. I am afraid that neither of those possibilities commends itself to the Government. As for his suggestion about shorter hours, I can only refer him to the remarks of the chairman of the National Coal Board. In all parts of the Committee we should naturally like to see shorter hours as soon as we can, but if they are to cost the Coal Board anything like the amount which the Chairman thinks they will—and I am
  142
  sure that he is well advised—4then I am afraid that the chances are extremely slight, at any rate at the moment.
  With regard to the suggestion for flexibility of pricing by the National Coal Board, which the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Blyton) mentioned and which has been mentioned several times before, I want to make it perfectly clear that Her Majesty's Government would look at any such suggestion sympathetically. It is up to the Coal Board to come forward with some suggestions, which it has not done. I warned the House in an earlier debate that it is not as easy as it looks. The Coal Board is not finding it easy to produce a scheme which it is prepared to recommend. It is not the Government who are standing in the way of anything of this sort. If and when we receive any suggestions from the Coal Board, we shall look at them very sympathetically.
  The only thing I want to say about opencast mining, which was referred to by one or two hon. Members, is that a balanced view is necessary. Very strong arguments were advanced by one of my hon. Friends, both on financial and economic grounds. There are arguments on the other side, in same cases at any rate with regard to agricultural interests, and so on. A balanced view is necessary, and that is just what the Board has taken. It has cut production by 25 per cent. It has not gone either to one extreme or to the other.
  So much for a certain number of what I may call, without disrespect, miscellaneous points.
  I will first answer a specific question of my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Sir P. Roberts) about future power stations burning oil only. I have checked my information, and it is not intended that any future stations should be commenced which will burn oil only.
  My hon. Friend's more important point was on the question of exports, and several other hon. Members referred to this aspect. There is no dispute between the parties that we want all the exports we can get, if we have the coal to export. It does not do any good putting down a paper figure of 10 million or 20 million tons. That does not get us anywhere. We have to sell it.
  Mr. Blyton indicated assent.
  Sir I. Horobin: I am glad to have, evidently, the support of an hon. Gentleman of great experience. Our great anxiety is to stop our exports falling. We are having to put pressure on the Germans, for instance, and we are in the midst of extremely difficult negotiations with the High Authority. It is not realistic to talk about channelling 10 per cent. of our actual production into exports.
  I will draw the attention of the Committee very briefly to some of the points made. Our main competition at present comes from the United States, as everybody knows. I wonder whether every hon. Member in the Committee has posed the problem to himself in this way. In order to avoid any possible misconception, I should say that I am not using these figures as any criticism of the National Coal Board or the miners or anybody in this country, because the conditions are different. But it does not alter the final result. At present, in very round figures the Americans are producing twice as much coal as us, with a quarter of the men. [Interruption.] I am not saying this in criticism of anybody. It does not alter the fact that that is extremely difficult competition for us to face. It is not only competition with oil. It is competition with very cheaply produced coal. The fact is that, with the current level of American f.o.b. prices and with the present level of freights, we must be realistic: the chances of a very drastic increase in our coal exports are not, to put it mildly, extremely encouraging.
  That is not to say that we are not all doing our best. The National Coal Board is doing its very best to export more. Any assistance which the Government can give is being given. There is no restriction on the export prices which the National Coal Board can charge. I do not think that there is anything between the parties. Anybody who thinks, however, that it is likely that we shall have a very great increase in our exports of coal in the near future is being, to put it mildly, very optimistic.
  Mr. Tom Brown: When the Parliamentary Secretary quotes conditions in American mines and compares them with conditions here, he ought to explain that the geological and physical conditions in the American mines are
  144
  much more favourable to production than they are in ours.
  Sir I. Horobin: I have already said that we are not criticising the Coal Board, the miners or anyone. We are merely saying that we have to face competition from some extremely cheap coal, and it is no good blinking our eyes to the fact. It is not only competition from cheap oil that we have to face, but competition from cheap coal.
  Before leaving this question of exports, I want to make another point. The figures I am about to give have been quoted before, I know, but it is as well to remind ourselves that since 1951 the price of coal has gone up by about 50 per cent, and the price of oil has gone up by about 7 per cent. A great many of the suggestions that have come from the other side today have been in the nature of complaints that the Coal Board was not allowed to put up the price of coal still further; but, taking everything together, I think that any suggestion that the Government have in some way lost a great opportunity, and so are culpable, in the export trade—or that the Coal Board has—will not bear examination.
  Coming now nearer to the nub of this debate, I turn to the speech of the right hon. Member for Blyth. With a great deal of what he said—as would be expected in one who knows as much about the industry as he does—I do not think that anyone on this side would be likely to quarrel, but I should like to deal with something he said about manpower. I hope that I misunderstood him here, but, if not, it is important that it should not get about and cause unnecessary alarm and despondency.
  If I understood him aright, the right hon. Gentleman suggested that trends now going on, and which might be expected to continue in the near future, would bring about a fall in the number of men required in the industry of, I think he said, about 60.000 people. If that were right, it would mean that instead of the current manpower of approximately 677,000, at the end of the year the figure would be down to 617,000 or 620,000. If any figure of that sort is in anybody's mind then, short of something completely unforeseen, and so improbable as to be unrealistic, I say without the slightest hesitation that any such picture is completely wide of the mark.

  145
  Having made that preliminary comment, I want to refer to the remark of the right hon. Member for Easington, who spoke about a proposed contraction of the industry. Nobody on either side of the Committee will accuse me of being one of those who are very fond of crystal gazing, but I think that a good deal of the talk on those lines is quite unnecessarily pessimistic.
  It is neither possible nor desirable to give exact figures of demand in 1965, or whenever it may be, but I can go so far as to say that the best information that we have in the Ministry, in consultation with the Board—and it can be only an informed guess—suggests that something not very different from present production —and it is likely to be slightly higher rather than lower—would be a fair picture of the likely production and demand in 1965. If we are anything like right in this—and it is the best picture that either we or the Board can, at the moment, give—it makes some of the rather alarmist suggestions we have had today a little beside the point.
  Of course, if a picture of this sort is correct, it must not be taken to mean that there will be no further closures of uneconomic pits. We have already said that there will not be any needed this year. But it does mean that as new pits come in, so some of the less efficient ones which are losing money and producing expensive coal will have to be closed. It also means that it is a manageable situation. We are not, so far as we can see, faced with a catastrophic fall in the production of or the demand for coal.
  Again, if that be true, and if, as we must hope, output per man shift and output per man year will continue to increase, it becomes clear that if the total demand is, if anything, likely to be slightly better, so any suggestion that there will be a further very heavy fall in the manpower required in the immediate years to come is unduly pessimistic.
  If I can go on from there, I think it might help the Committee and encourage some of us if I were to give the latest figures that I have relating to what has happened this year, in which a substantial operation of closures has had to be carried out. First of all, in Scotland there are 20 closures scheduled and 9 have already taken place. Two more have
  146
  started, I understand, but 9 have taken place. At those collieries, 1,780 men were employed and the latest figure that the Board was able to give me this morning was that out of those 1,780 only 41 remain unemployed and were in receipt of redundancy payment at the end of April. Do not let us damage the industry and cause quite unnecessary pain and anxiety by exaggerating difficulties which undoubtedly exist. So much for Scotland, After all, Scotland was one of the most difficult and tricky places where more closures had to take place than anywhere else.
  In England all 9 economic closures have taken place. We are over the hump. There were 3,580 men employed at those collieries and over 2,900 have now been found other colliery work. In other words, 670 men remain unemployed; and here, as I want to give the bad as well as the good, I must add that unfortunately 550 of them are concentrated in Northumberland and Cumberland. The Coal Board informs me that about half of those at present unemployed in this area will have been re-engaged by the end of the year.
  In South Wales, 7 economic closures have all taken place, and of the 2,685 men previously employed at those collieries, over 1,300 have been found other colliery work and a further 260 have obtained work in other industries.
  The position, therefore, at the moment is that about 80 per cent. of those to be affected have already been found other employment in one way or another. That is not to say that the remaining 20 per cent. do not present a serious problem, but in fairness to the Coal Board, the Government and all concerned, we must keep a sense of proportion.
  Mr. S. O. Davies (Merthyr Tydvil): Could the hon. Gentleman give us the net figure of the miners unemployed in South Wales as a result of the closures?
  Sir I. Horobin: As a result of the closures in South Wales, of the 2,685 previously employed, over 1,300 have been found other colliery work and a further 260 have obtained work in other industries. That would be approximately 1,000 now unemployed as a result of the closures, and the Coal Board expect that most of those will be employed—
  Mr. S. O. Davies: But what prospect is there of other employment?
  Sir I. Horobin: If that be the situation in a particularly difficult year, I think it is serving no useful purpose to suggest as some hon. Members have done, that we are on the way back to the days of the 1930s, the 1926 strike, and all the rest of it. [Interruption.] If that is the feeling, I am afraid that it is being encouraged for one reason or another, and if I can say anything On behalf of the Coal Board to put it right, this debate will, perhaps, in spite of what appears to have been the intention in some parts, have served a useful purpose.
  I was taken a little to task, in a very good humoured way—I do not object—about an earlier reference of mine to juvenile employment. I do not take any of that back; I still believe that, over the years, opportunities for highly paid, skilled employment in coal mining are quite as good as they are in most industries, and better than many. Again, no useful purpose is served by crying "stinking fish" about that matter.
  While on the subject of previous prophecies of mine, perhaps the Committee would like to know how another one fared. In an earlier debate, I took the opportunity of saying, in answer to some rather pessimistic accounts, that I did not think that the Coal Board would in that year, even from a financial point of view, do so badly as some people thought. I ventured to say that it might well be that the loss would be only about £5 millon, which, in a difficult year, seemed to be not bad. A £5 millon loss is a £5 million loss, but it might have been a lot worse. I am happy to be able to say that, while the final accounts are not yet available, the indications are that the Coal Board has done rather better than I had hoped when I last addressed the Committee on this matter.
  Once again, let us not be too extreme. Let us not give exaggerated, alarmist accounts. The situation is difficult. The Coal Board is coping with it fairly well, and so are the Government. No useful purpose is served by pretending the contrary.
  I want to say a word or two about oil, gas and nuclear power. First of all, on the subject of oil, we simply must face the fact that, in many respects, oil has
  148
  reached a position where its advantages are quite overwhelming. Generally, one can take, perhaps, the factor of coal equivalence as being 2 to 1, but the Committee must bear in mind that that is an average and the competitive advantages of oil are sometimes much greater. In some branches of the steel industry, for instance, I am advised that the ratio is as high as 5 to 1, and in some branches of transport, oil has the advantage of a ratio of 10 to 1 as compared with coal.
  It is, therefore, really absurd, particularly for any party calling itself a progressive party, to think that this country, faced with all the competition we have in the world to earn our living, can, in one way or another, saddle British industry with a type of fuel which has, for technical reasons, ceased to be reasonably competitive. But there again, let us not exaggerate.
  The position in the gas industry has been referred to several times. I will give this one figure. It was pointed out. I think, by my right hon. Friend earlier, that at the moment the gas industry's thermal input derived from oil is only 5 per cent., but even with all the allowances made for the possibility of the use of liquid methane and so forth, it is not expected that in ten years it will be more than 10 per cent. Again, one cannot tie oneself to exact percentages, but coal will still remain the main basis of the gas industry. It is equally true, however, that carbonisation will not remain. If one tries to tie the gas industry to carbonising coal, one will merely finish up with no gas industry at all and then there will be no market for the coal.
  The gas industry, with great energy and initiative—I only wish that we could say the same for all experiments in nationalisation; it is probably due to the fact that most of the people in it were brought up in private companies—is carrying out a whole series of experiments. Apparently, right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite do not mind experiments so long as not the slightest use of them is made after they have been carried out. If the gas industry is to keep its markets it has to move away from carbonising coal, which is immensely expensive both in labour and capital and uses a very expensive kind of coal which is becoming rarer. It has to move away to oil in some form,

  149
  or methane in some form, or hydrogenation of low quality coal. So much for the position in the coal industry and for the likely prospects in oil and in gas.
  I will say only a word on nuclear energy. I was very sorry to see one hon. Member opposite—and I am glad that it was only one hon. Member—set out even to crab nuclear energy. It is surprising and disappointing to discover how many hon. Members opposite seem to think that the only thing that matters—although it does matter—is deep-mined coal and that everything else should he sacrificed to it.
  I think that a statement made by no less an authority than Sir John Cockcroft only a day or two ago in Australia will interest the Committee, because, again, it enables us to put the matter in some kind of perspective. He held out the hope that in 1975, 50 per cent. of our electricity will come from nuclear power. That is a very high figure and straight away I say that I am not committed to that figure, but it comes from one of the world's greatest authorities and it must be treated with some respect. Suppose that that were so, and that our advances in the nuclear sphere, in which we in this country were pioneers, were so successful that at that time 50 per cent. of our electricity was produced from nuclear energy. It would still be the case that the electricity industry would be using rather more coal than it is today. Therefore, I hope that we shall not panic and lose our heads.
  Mr. A. Roberts: The hon. Gentleman is referring to me. Sir John Cockcroft said that by the turn of the century the electricity industry would not be using any coal at all.
  Sir I. Horobin: What may be the position in the year 2,000 is so much a guess
  that I do not believe that anybody can be particularly bothered with it. But what may happen in 1970 or 1975 is something which we must take into account. It is important that the Committee should realise that, whatever may be the highest likely rate of increase of nuclear power in the next few years, the electricity industry will still be using more coal than it does now.
  What do the proposals from hon. Members opposite come to? They want dearer gas and they want the gas industry prevented from getting opportunities of reducing its prices. They want dearer electricity, because they want electricity to be milked by a subsidy to the coal industry. They want dearer oil by putting a tax on it. They even want dearer coal because they want to cut opencast coal mining, and they do not want any more nuclear energy—and this is the progressive party! The answer is "No"!
  I do not think that the country will be foolish enough to provide itself with an alternative Government which has a policy like that; but, if it does, the only result will be not more employment but more unemployment. If we put up the price of the fuel of British industry when all our competitors are finding it possible to have cheaper, more flexible and more convenient sources of energy, goodbye to full employment. That is a policy which does not commend itself to the Government, and I do not think that it will commend itself to the Committee.
  Mr. Robens: I beg to move, That Item Class IX, Vote 5 (Ministry of Power), be reduced by £5.
  Question put:—
  The Committee divided: Ayes 231, Noes 310.

  Division No. 98.]

  AYES

  [9.56 p.m.

  Ainsley, J. W.

  Bowles, F. G.

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Albu, A. H.

  Boyd, T. C.

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

  Cronin, J. D.

  Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

  Brockway, A. F.

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Allen, Soholefield (Crewe)

  Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

  Cullen, Mrs. A.

  Bacon, Miss Alice

  Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

  Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

  Baird, J.

  Brown, Thomas (ince)

  Davies, Harold (Leek)

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Burke, W. A.

  Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)

  Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)

  Burton, Miss F. E.

  Deer, G.

  Benson, Sir George

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Beswick, Frank

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

  Callaghan, L. J.

  Donnelly, D. L.

  Blackburn, F.

  Champion, A. J.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J C.

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Chapman, W. D.

  Edelman, M.

  Blyton, W. R.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

  Boardman, H.

  Cliffe, Michael

  Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.

  Coldriok, W.

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.)

  Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)

  Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Lindgren, G. S.

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Fernyhough, E.

  Logan, D. G.

  Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)

  Finch, H. J. (Bedwellty)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Fitch, A. E. (Wigan)

  McAlister, Mrs. Mary

  Ross, William

  Fletcher, Eric

  McCann, J.

  Royle, C.

  Forman, J. C.

  MacColl, J. E.

  Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

  Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

  MacDermot, Niall

  Short, E. W.

  Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.

  McInnes, J.

  Silverman, Julius (Aston)

  George, Lady Megan Lloyd(Car'then)

  McKay, John (Wallsend)

  Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

  Gibson, C. W.

  McLeavy, Frank

  Skeffington, A. M.

  Gooch, E. G.

  MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)

  Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

  MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

  Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

  Greenwood, Anthony

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Snow, J. W.

  Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.

  Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Grey, C. F.

  Mason, Roy

  Sosklce, Rt. Hon.

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Mayhew, C. P.

  Sir Prank

  Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

  Mellish, R. J.

  Sparks, J. A.

  Griffiths, William (Exchange)

  Messer, Sir F.

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Hale, Leslie

  Mikardo, Ian

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham)

  Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (CoIna Valley)

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Stonehouse, John

  Hamilton, W. W.

  Monslow, W.

  Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

  Hannan, W.

  Moody, A. S.

  Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

  Hayman, F. H.

  Moss, R.

  Stross, Dr. Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent, C.)

  Healey, Denis

  Moyle, A.

  Swingler, S. T.

  Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)

  Mulley, F. W.

  Sylvester, G. 0.

  Herbison, Miss M.

  Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

  Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

  Hilton, A. V.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.)

  Taylor, John (West Lothian)

  Hobson, C. R. (Kelghley)

  O'Brien, Sir Thomas

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Holman, P.

  Oliver, G. H.

  Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)

  Holmes, Horace

  Oram, A. E.

  Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)

  Houghton, Douglas

  Orbach, M.

  Thornton, E.

  Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)

  Oswald, T.

  Timmons, J.

  Howell, Denis (All Saints)

  Owen, W. J.

  Tomney, F.

  Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Padley, W. E.

  Viant, S. P.

  Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

  Paget, R. T.

  Warbey, W. N.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. W.(Deame Valley)

  Watkins, T. E.

  Hunter, A. E.

  Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

  Weitzman, D.

  Hynd, H. (Accrington)

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Wells, Percy (Faversham)

  Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Irving. Sydney (Dartford)

  Parker, J.

  White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Parkin, B. T.

  White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

  Janner, B.

  Paton, John

  Wigg, George

  Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

  Peart, T. F.

  Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Pentland, N.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena(Holbn &St. Pncs, S.)

  Plummer, Sir Leslie

  Williams, David (Neath)

  Jenkins, Roy (Stechford)

  Popplewell, E.

  Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)

  Johnson, James (Rugby)

  Prentice, R. E.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech(Wakefield)

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)

  Jones, David (The Hartlepools)

  Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

  Williams, W. T. (Barons Court)

  Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

  Probert, A. R.

  Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

  Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Winterbottom, Richard

  Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

  Randall, H. E.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

  King, Dr. H. M.

  Rankin, John

  Woof, R. E.

  Ledger, R. J.

  Redhead, E. C.

  Yates, V. (Ladywood)

  Lee, Frederick (Newton)

  Reeves, J

  Younger, Rt. Hon. K.

  Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

  Reid, William

  Zilliacus, K.

  Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

  Rhodes, H.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES

  Lewis, Arthur

  Robens, Rt. Hon. A.

  Mr. Pearson and Mr. Simmons.

  NOES

  Agnew, Sir Peter

  Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)

  Butcher, Sir Herbert

  Aitken, W. T.

  Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)

  Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A.(Saffron Walden)

  Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald

  Campbell, Sir David

  Alport, C. J. M.

  Bevins, J. R. (TOxteth)

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

  Bidgood, J. C.

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

  Biggs-Davison, J. A.

  Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)

  Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William

  Bingham, R. M.

  Cole, Norman

  Arbuthnot, John

  Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel

  Conant, Maj. Sir Roger

  Armstrong, C. W.

  Bishop, F. P.

  Cooke, Robert

  Ashton, H.

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Cooper, A. E.

  Astor, Hon. J.J.

  Body, R. F.

  Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K.

  Atkins, H. E.

  Bossom, Sir Alfred

  Courtney, Cdr. Anthony

  Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

  Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)

  Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Baldwin, Sir Archer

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. 0. E.

  Balniel, Lord

  Boyle, Sir Edward

  Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

  Banks, Col. C.

  Braine, B. R.

  Cunningham, Knox

  Barber, Anthony

  Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Barlow, Sir John

  Brewis, John

  Dance, J. C. G.

  Barter, John

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt. Col. W. H.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Batsford, Brian

  Brooman-White, R. C.

  Davies, Rt.Hn. Clement(Montgomery)

  Baxter, Sir Beverley

  Bryan, P.

  Deedes, W. F.

  Beamish, Col. Tufton

  Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

  de Ferranti, Basil

  Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

  Burden, F. F. A.

  Dodds-Parker, A. D.

  152

  153

  Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. MCA.

  Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Doughty, C. J. A.

  Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam)

  Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

  Drayson, G. B.

  Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)

  Pitt, Miss E, M.

  du Cann, E. D. L.

  Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

  Pott, H. P.

  Dugdale, Rt. Hn. Sir T. (Richmond)

  Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

  Powell, J. Enoch

  Duthie, W. S.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. Aubrey (Hall Green)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir David

  Joseph, Sir Keith

  Price, Henry (Lewisham, W)

  Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

  Kaberry, D.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

  Elliott, R.W.(Ne'castle upon Tyne, N.)

  Keegan, D.

  Profumo, J. D.

  Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn

  Kerby, Capt. H. B.

  Ramsden, J. E,

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Kerr, Sir Hamilton

  Rawlinson, Peter

  Erroll, F. J.

  Kershaw, J. A.

  Redmayne, M.

  Farey-Jones, F. W.

  Kimball, M.

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Fell, A.

  Kirk, P. M.

  Remnant, Hon. P.

  Finlay, Graeme

  Lagden, G. W.

  Renton, D. L. M.

  Fisher, Nigel

  Lambton, Viscount

  Ridsdale, J. E.

  Fletcher-Cooke, C.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Rippon, A. G. F.

  Forrest, G.

  Langford-Holt, J. A.

  Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)

  Fort, R.

  Leather, E. H. C.

  Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, 8.)

  Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

  Leavey, J. A.

  Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

  Freeth, Denzil

  Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

  Roper, Sir Harold

  Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

  Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)

  Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

  Gammans, Lady

  Lindsay, Martin (Solihull)

  Russell, R. S.

  George, J. C. (Pollok)

  Linstead, Sir H. N.

  Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

  Gibson-Watt, D.

  Llewellyn, D. T.

  Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

  Glover, D.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G.(Sutton Coldfield)

  Sharpies, R. C.

  Glyn, Col. Richard H.

  Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

  Shepherd, William

  Godber, J. B.

  Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

  Goodhart, Philip

  Longden, Gilbert

  Smithers, Peter (Winchester)

  Gough, C. F. H.

  Loveys, Walter H.

  Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)

  Gower, H. R.

  Low, Rt. Hon. Slr Toby

  Soames, Rt. Hon. Christopher

  Graham, Sir Fergus

  Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

  Spearman, Sir Alexander

  Grant, Rt. Hon. W. (Woodside)

  Lucas, P. B.(Brentford & Chiswick)

  Speir, A. M.

  Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)

  Green, A.

  McAdden, S. J.

  Spens, Rt. Hn. Sir P. (Kens'gt'n, S.)

  Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans)

  Macdonald, Sir Peter

  Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

  Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

  Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

  Stevens, Geoffrey

  Grosvenor, Lt. Col. R. G.

  McLaughlin, Mrs. P.

  Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)

  Gurden, Harold

  Maclay, Rt. Hon. John

  Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy (Lancaster)

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm

  Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.

  McLean, Neil (Inverness)

  Storey, S.

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. lain (Enfield, W.)

  Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  MacLeod. John (Ross & Cromarty)

  Studhoime, Sir Henry

  Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)

  McMaster, S. R.

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

  Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (BromleY)

  Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere (Macclesf'd)

  Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)

  Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

  Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)

  Harvie-Watt, Sir George

  Maddan, Martin

  Teeling, W.

  Hay, John

  Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W.(Horncastle)

  Temple, John M.

  Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

  Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)

  Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

  Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel

  Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.

  Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)

  Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.

  Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E.

  Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)

  Henderson, John (Cathcart)

  Marshall, Douglas

  Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)

  Henderson-Stewart, Sir James

  Mathew, R.

  Thorneycroft, Rt. Hon. P.

  Hesketh, R. F.

  Maudling, Rt. Hon. R.

  Thornton-Kemsley, Sir Colin

  Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.

  Mawby, R. L.

  Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)

  Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

  Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

  Turner, H. F. L.

  Hill, John (S. Norfolk)

  Medlicott, Sir Frank

  Tweedsmuir, Lady

  Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

  Molson, Rt. Hon. Hugh

  Vane, W. M. F.

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Moore, Sir Thomas

  Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

  Hobson, John (Warwick&Leam'gt'n)

  Morrison, John (Salisbury)

  Vickers, Miss Joan

  Holland-Martin, C. J.

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.

  Hope, Lord John

  Nabarro, G. D. N.

  Wade, D. W.

  Hornby, R. P.

  Nairn, D. L. S.

  Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)

  Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

  Neave, Airey

  Wall, Patrick

  Horobin, Sir Ian

  Nicholls, Harmar

  Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)

  Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame Florence

  Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)

  Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)

  Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

  Nicoison, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)

  Watkinson, Rt. Hon. Harold

  Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

  Noble, Comdr. Rt. Hon. Allan

  Webster, David

  Howard, John (Test)

  Noble, Michael (Argyll)

  Whitelaw, W. S. I.

  Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

  Nugent, G. R. H.

  Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

  Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.

  Oakshott, H. D.

  Wills, Sir Gerald (Bridgwater)

  Hughes-Young, M. H. C.

  O'Neill, Hn. Phelim(Co. Antrim, N.)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Hulbert, Sir Norman

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Hurd, Sir Anthony

  Orr-Ewing, C. Ian (Hendon, N.)

  Wood, Hon. R.

  Hutchison, Michael Clark(E'b'gh, S.)

  Osborne, C.

  Woollam, John Victor

  Hutchison, Sir James (Scotstoun)

  Page, R. G.

  Yates, William (The Wrekin)

  Hyde, Montgomery

  Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)

  Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry

  Partridge, E.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  lremonger, T. L.

  Peel, W. J.

  Mr. Legh and

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Peyton, J. W. W.

  Mr. Edward Wakefield.

  Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

  Pickthorn, Sir Kenneth

  Original Question again proposed.
  It being after Ten o'clock, The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again..
  Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  SCOTLAND (FURTHER EDUCATION)
  10.7 p.m.
  Mr. G. M. Thomson: I beg to move,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Further Education (Scotland) Regulations, 1959 (S.I., 1959, No. 477), dated 18th March, 1959, a copy of which was laid before this House on 7th April, be annulled.
  We have placed this Prayer on the Order Paper to try to find out how adequate these Regulations are for meeting the nation's needs in further education, which is a relatively new but vitally important part of general education. We hear a lot these days about room at the top. One of the achievements of half a century's educational progress has been to make sure that there is always now plenty of room at the top. We are becoming increasingly aware, however, that there is not nearly enough room at the bottom for the 15 to 18-year-olds who leave school at the school-leaving age or shortly thereafter. They have a need to acquire the skills of good craftsmanship and, perhaps more important, the more difficult technical skills of good citizenship through part-time education.
  The Government are meeting this need by a £12 million technical building programme in Scotland, and perhaps we shall hear tonight that they are making more progress with this than they were the last time we had an opportunity to look at these matters. One of the biggest of the trades colleges is being sited in my own constituency of Dundee, and I hope that the Minister will make this trades college a building of which we in Dundee will be as proud as we shall be of the Tay Road Bridge when we finally get it built.
  These Regulations, on the face of them, look too general and too imprecise to meet the urgency and complication of the present situation in education. Let me remind the House of the nature of the problem. I am dealing here primarily with the need for extending compulsorily day release education for the teen-agers. By 1962 the number of school leavers will be half as big as it was in 1956. We want to know tonight what contribution these Regulations make towards
  156
  ensuring that there will be enough well-equipped further education colleges to meet the greatly increased number of young people who will be coming out of the secondary schools, and particularly out of the junior secondary schools.
  Although the number on day release has been going up steadily over recent years, we are still in a position where only half as many have day release education in Scotland as in England or Wales in proportion to our population, much to our disgrace as a country. Much depends on heavy industry. When we look at shipbuilding and heavy engineering, we have only one-ninth of the number of day release students in Scotland that there are in England and Wales.
  To implement the 1946 Act in full in relation to the provision of daytime education for young people who have left school would need a tremendous increase in the provision of further education centres. I think it would need a sevenfold increase, 200,000 extra places. Clearly, that is impracticable in the immediate future.
  But I cannot see why these Regulations should not make it obligatory on local authorities at least to provide enough places to give day release education to all those in their area who are in apprentice trades. That would be a good start towards the larger goal of county colleges. Why should not the Regulations specify that the inspectors, who have certain duties laid on them in the Regulations, ought also to seek to co-ordinate the examination requirements of the further education centres with the examination requirements of the secondary schools? A great deal of emphasis is laid on this in the recent report of the working party on the curriculum in the secondary schools, and it is a very important matter indeed if we are to provide a real incentive for people who leave school early to go on to further education.
  Mr. Douglas McIntosh, the Director of Education for Fife, in his very important new book, "Educational Guidance and the Pool of Ability", makes exactly this point. He says:
  "A bridge between the day schools and the local technical colleges would close a gap in the education system, the existence of which results in the talents of many children remaining undeveloped."

  157
  We would have hoped that the Regulations might have been more adequate to meet that problem.
  There is a question of fees being charged for further education. As far back as 1952, the Advisory Committee on Education, in its Report on further education, recommended that no fees should be charged for further education. Recently the same Advisory Council, reconstituted after all these years, expressed the same sort of anxieties about the question of fees in secondary education, and, in its very important Report on the provision of more teachers in secondary schools, said:
  &we welcome the Government's programme for the expansion of further education, and since it may well provide not only technologists, technicians and craftsmen for industry but also technical teachers for the schools, we recommend that it be pushed forward with the utmost vigour. At the same time, we express our regret that the economy circulars which have been issued by the Scottish Education Department in recent years have led to an increase in fees in some education authority evening technical centres, with detriment to the enrolment."
  I should have much preferred the Regulations to remove all fees for further education in view of the importance of encouraging as many people as possible to go in for this kind of education after they have left the ordinary secondary schools.
  We are also extremely puzzled on this side of the House why in these Regulations the central institutions and the further education centres, the local authority centres, should be so closely tied together. Why should the Regulations imposed on the local authority centres be imposed equally on the central institutions, many of which are preparing people for associateships and other qualifications of degree standard? I should have thought that by far the best way forward was to ensure that the local authority trades colleges and the central institutions operated in separate and distinct fields, the local authority centres dealing with craftsmanship qualifications and the central institutions dealing with the National Certificate and upwards. It is a little humiliating that the kind of regulations needed for a teen-age further education centre should be laid on these central institutions. I think that some of my hon. Friends fortunate enough to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, will be developing that point further.
  158
  We hope that this Prayer may give the Joint Under-Secretary the opportunity to report on the progress made in further education in Scotland. I conclude by reminding him that, whatever progress is made in providing more places for further education, this cannot be divorced from the general situation in Scotland in which this is being done. It is no use providing further opportunities for young people to acquire skills if, after they have acquired them, they find, as they so often do in Scotland today, that there are no skilled jobs for them to do.
  10.16 p.m.
  Mr. Malcolm MacPherson: I beg to second the Motion.
  I want particularly to speak about the central institutions rather than the other institutions. I am concerning myself with Part II of the Regulations—Grants for Central Institutions and Approved Associations. I do not understand why this set of Regulations should have a Part II, or why the Department should want to regulate at all for the subjects being introduced under these Regulations.
  The institutions concerned in these Regulations are, generally speaking, of university rank and institutions which ought to be governed in much the same way as universities. One of them is, in fact, an institution on the University Grants Committee list—the Royal College of Science and Technology in Glasgow. Looking at the provisions so far as they concern that college, I begin to wonder how the college will fare.
  Regulation 10 says:
  "A grant under this Part shall be of such amount or at such rate and in respect of such period as the Secretary of State may determine after consideration of the nature, efficiency, extent and estimated cost of the service&"
  Who is the Secretary of State to determine things like that in respect of a body which is itself a university in essence, a body which is under the wing of the University Grants Committee?
  If the Secretary of State is to make determinations and consider the nature, efficiency, and extent of this service, will he not overlap with the work of that Committee? Will not both be concerned with the same thing? What will happen

  159
  if they have different standards? Has there ever been a clash between the two sets of standards? In any case, why should public money be given to this institution through two separate and distinct sources?
  According to the figures in its latest report, the Department gives the Royal College of Science and Technology about £450,000 in the course of a year, but along with that there is a very much bigger grant from the University Grants Committee. Why is there that dual channel for public funds? Would it not be more sensible if the whole thing were done under the one aegis?
  I am inclined to ask how the college itself is supposed to get along in these circumstances. The college has already found itself in difficulties in its relations with the university. In many respects, it would be better for the college if it were simply a single institution. In many respects it would be better if it were completely incorporated as a faculty of the university. However, it is neither of those. It is in between, and difficulties have arisen between the university and the college and the problems concerned with those difficulties have not yet been fully solved.
  Here is another factor, not only financing but assessing, considering, determining the nature of the service being rendered by still a third authority. In consequence, one is inclined to ask how the Royal College of Science and Technology is to achieve and maintain the sort of status which a great scientific institution of university rank ought to achieve and maintain. Is not this kind of administration putting it under difficulties of a sort which no parallel institution has to suffer?
  There are similar objections for the other central institutions and those objections are just as strong. In referring to those other institutions, I am not now leaving aside the Royal College, because the college is one of this group of institutions of university standing and all the Regulations apply to it as they do to the others. Regulation 11 is the sum and substance of Part II of the Regulations. It imposes conditions on these colleges which seem to be quite unjustifiable. The colleges are all of university rank, some
  160
  for science, some for art, some for architecture, some for music, and so on. One would have thought that these would operate on roughly the same principles as the universities, not with exactly the same kind of government and management, but on roughly the same principles as those followed by universities. In fact, they are hemmed in very closely.
  Regulation 11 (1, b) says that
  "the governing body or approved association shall make such reports and returns and give such information to the Secretary of State as he may require."
  There is no doubt whatever about the position of the Secretary of State in relation to these institutions. "As he may require": it is impossible to require anything of the universities, which are free agents, but these institutions, dealing with youngsters at the same stage as those in universities, are to be required to produce information and to keep within whatever restrictions the Secretary of State may lay down.
  Regulation 11 (3, b) says that
  "the grades of staff employed&shall be such as the Secretary of State may consider reasonable."
  The appointment of staff and the decision about qualifications of staff are things which the universities have always considered to be internal matters. No one lays down the law to the universities about whom they shall appoint and what kind of people they shall appoint and that kind of thing, but in similar institutions the Secretary of State is to have the final word.
  Regulation 11 (3, d) says that the institutions are to be forbidden to hold lectures in classes of more than 40. I find it difficult to swallow that. This Regulations applies to the central institutions the whole body of Regulations in Part I. Those are possibly appropriate to the education authority institutions dealing with teen-agers, but they are far too finicky and repressive when applied to these bodies.
  Why should there not be classes over 40? Why should not a lecturer or professor in the Heriot-Watt College, or the Royal College in Glasgow, lecture to a couple of hundred students at once? What is wrong with that, provided they get proper tutorial instruction? Apart from that, they are subject to ridiculous regulations about attendance registers

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  having to be kept, and inspection. Are these colleges really to be subject to inspection, as if they were primary or secondary schools? Are the Heriot-Watt and other colleges of that sort to submit schemes of work to be examined? What has happened to academic freedom?
  They have to submit for the approval of the Secretary of State particulars of their courses. That hits academic freedom in the eye. Their courses are to be approved by the Secretary of State. That kind of regulation would mean the end of a university as a teaching institution. No university would dream of accepting a condition like that. But these institutions, doing work of university standard and quality, are told that their courses are to be subject to the approval of the Secretary of State.
  The conditions of the award of degrees and diplomas are also to be subject to consideration and inspection by the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State must approve the assessor who may be appointed to sit in with the examiners. Universities have their system of external examiners, but they do not have to submit these external examiners for approval by the Treasury or by any other Government Department; but the central institutions have to submit them for the approval of the Minister.
  This is totally wrong. I cannot see how the Secretary of State can reconcile Regulations of this sort with the position in which the country wants to put scientific studies. We are trying to tell our constituents and the country in general that science must be developed to a far greater extent. We are trying to tell everybody that it must be developed on a liberal basis. We have talked in terms of a scientific university, of scientific courses of a university type, and here we are tying down the central institutions as if they were primary schools. This sort of action in this day and age requires more justification than I think it is possible for the Government to give.
  10.28 p.m.
  Miss Margaret Herbison: My hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson) made an important case for the central institutions. I wish to deal with two Regulations concerning further education.
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  My hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson), who moved the Prayer, raised the question of the charging of fees. Regulation 11 (3, a) states that:
  "The scales of tuition, examination, hostel and other fees charged to students attending the central institution or further education centre shall be such as the Secretary of State may consider reasonable: "
  Those who go to further education classes are what I would call the unprivileged young people in our communities. They lack the privilege of those who are able to stay at a secondary school until they are 17 or 18 years of age. In the main, they leave school at 15 and start work. They will either be giving up their spare time to travel to evening classes, or will be attending day release centres. Those who are privileged, as I was, to stay at school until they are 17, do not pay any fees at all. Not only have they no fees to pay, but they have no books to buy. Their books and all the stationery they need are provided for them.
  In this matter of privilege and the feeling we have that there ought to be equity in these matters, it seems that these young people attending further education classes ought not to be asked at any time to pay fees. We often hear complaints that far too many of our young people who leave school at 15 never go near a school again. We want to give them all the encouragement we can, but one of the ways of discouraging them is to charge fees, no matter how small. If some are not discouraged by the charging of fees, I feel that it is wrong to charge fees to them when their more fortunate brothers and sisters remain at school until they are 17 and do not have to pay a penny in fees.
  We are not alone in this contention. Most hon. Members will have read the most interesting Command Paper on further education, published in 1952. On page 50 of that Paper, we see the recommendation, in paragraph 197,
  "We therefore reaffirm the recommendation of the previous Council that no fees be charged for students up to 18 years of age."
  Paragraph 198, meeting possible criticism, says:
  "The adage that what costs nothing is considered to be worth nothing is presented a reason for fee paying. Against such arguments there must be placed the urgent demand for fully trained technicians."

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  There are two reasons why the Government ought not to charge fees. The first is that we ought to see that these unprivileged boys and girls are put on the same footing as those who are privileged and remain at school. The second reason is that, although we may be making great plans for the training of our scientists and technologists, those who will be top in this world will always have to depend a great deal on our technicians and craftsmen. For those two reasons I urge the Government to cut out any fee paying, particularly in these centres for further education.
  The only other point with which I want to deal is in Part I, at the top of page 3 of the Regulations, under the heading "Size of Classes." My hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs pooh-poohed the idea that in the central institutions there should be a regulation stipulating that there should not be more than 40 in a class. I would support my hon. Friend only if I felt that where there is a class of 200 there is tutorial work to back up the class work. I have tried to refresh my memory on the number laid down by the code for secondary education.
  For the first three years of serious secondary education the number allowed in Scotland is 40. That is normally for those up to 15 years of age, but for those over 15 years of age—those in the fourth, fifth and sixth years—the number laid down by the code is 30. It is 30 for those I term the more privileged children. Yet the Government are laying down in the code that the maximum shall be 40 and are going even further by saying,
  "provided that any of the said numbers of students may be exceeded in exceptional circumstances."
  It seems to me that if, as educationists, we say that those children we consider fit for senior secondary courses must not be educated, in their final years in senior secondary courses, in classes of more than 30, then we have no right to say that those children who leave school at 15 and try to supplement their education and to become better craftsmen and technicians should be educated in classes of 40.
  The Secretary of State ought to give most careful consideration to the question of the size of classes. I do not know what representations have been made to him on the two points which I have made,
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  but I am sure that in meeting them he would have the backing in Scotland of all those interested in the education of our young people and in ensuring that our craftsmen and technicians are given the best possible education.
  My final question is one which has been stressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, East. Are the Government satisfied that by these Regulations we shall reach parity with England and Wales in the provision of day-release classes for our boys and girls? It seems to me scandalous that in this part of education we fall so far behind England and Wales.
  10.37 p.m.
  Sir James Henderson-Stewart: This is a very useful occasion for drawing attention to an immensely important matter for us in Scotland. Like other hon. Members, I merely want to touch here and there on small points, because there is not time for a long oration.
  I start by feeling that the important element here is the local college. If we could concentrate upon the development of the local college we should be doing the greatest good for our country. Like the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson), I hope that the new college being built in Dundee will be a great success, but I was very pleased to not ice that the Dundee Town Council invited the Scottish Education Department to have another look at the plans and the general costs and took the view that a little economy would do no harm.
  The Lord Provost of Dundee was very wise in that view, and although I am very impressed with the necessity for developing these local colleges and would stress to my friends in Scotland the importance of getting a move on with them, nevertheless I ask, as I did when I had some responsibility for the matter, that some measure of economy be maintained, because there is no doubt that we have to watch that the State's money is not used upon projects which, while attractive, are not vital.
  I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House know the kind of thing I have in mind. I am very much in favour, however, of developing the local colleges. I hope that no local authority—and I am thinking of Fife just as much as any other—will in any way hinder the development of these essential institutions—
  Mr. G. M. Thomson: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will assure me that in saying that there should be value for money— which is what I take him to be saying—he does not support those who feel that the economy should be made at the expense of the recreational and cultural classes to be provided in this trades college. Does he agree that the younger people of from 15 to 18 years of age have just as much right to general education as have those still at school?
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: I entirely share that view. All the same, we have to remember that, as a nation, we in Scotland have done a fairly good job so far. The hon. Gentleman's figures impressed me. So far, what has been undertaken represents an expenditure of just under £10 million, and we are committed to the expenditure of another £6 million. That is a very substantial development of technical education in our country. I only hope that the Government will go on being wise in this way, and that it will be a continuing and progressive development. I am very pleased to see in one of the papers which has been circulated that the Government themselves talk about a "vast and continuous" expansion. That is the right language to use in this connection.
  We have certainly to go a very long way with these day-release classes. We are far behind England, and there are reasons for it into which we need not now enter. I am advised that when the present string of new colleges is completed we may count on a day-release attendance in a few years of about 60,000 instead of the present 30,000. That would be a considerable step forward.
  I was interested in what the hon. Member for Dundee, East said about the central institutions. I agree that it does seem odd that the Royal Technical College, in Glasgow, should be financed from two sources, but it is a long-standing thing—it grows up. Nevertheless, there is no reason why it should not be looked at again. Perhaps more co-ordination is required.
  I was not so happy when the hon. Member spoke of the other central institutions. I cannot agree that we should not demand reports from a body which we finance out of public funds—
  Mr. Malcolm MacPherson: Will not the hon. Gentleman agree that the same
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  should apply to the universities, which are financed from public funds?
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: I get that point quite well, but they are not quite the same—
  Mr. MacPherson: Oh.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: With great respect, I beg leave to differ—
  Mr. MacPherson: May I just make this point? It is not so long ago that the universities expanded their range to take in institutions which were then of this sort. For instance, in Scotland, the dental colleges were not part of the universities, and were not normally part of the universities elsewhere, but were incorporated as faculties. Surely the same thing applies to the Scottish Woollen Technical College, the Scottish Academy of Music, the Arts College, and so on.
  Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: I know that the argument is perfectly logical, but, talking from experience—and we all have experience of this—I cannot readily agree that we should cease to require from bodies such as those the hon. Gentleman mentions any report on what they are doing. That seems to be asking a little too much, and it is not asking too much of them.
  As to the fees mentioned by the hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison), I confess that I was not aware that fees were being charged for what I might call vocational subjects. I know that fees have always been charged for dancing and that kind of thing. In my time I have been quite open in saying that that sort of class should be paid for by those taking advantage of it, but I was not aware that a boy or girl leaving school at 14, 15 or 16 years of age was required to pay fees for the normal instruction in those classes. If the hon. Lady has raised a point there, I agree that it ought to be examined.
  I repeat that we are dealing here with a matter which will be of supreme importance in Scotland in days to come. We have this growing, almost frightening, problem coming to us in the next year or two. It seems that we have more young people coming into our hands than we know what to do with. I say "it seems," but it behoves the Government and industry together to take substantial—perhaps exceptional—measures to ensure

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  that there is a place found for these young boys and girls.
  The hon. Lady is quite right in saying that those children of 17 and 18 who have the advantage of going right to the top of the school and then to a university are fortunate. But there is the great mass, about 75 per cent., who do not go there and many do not go to any classes at all. It is dreadful that that state of affairs should continue. Therefore, anything that the Government and industry can do together to harness these young people into proper lines of thought and ultimately to useful work would be helpful to the State.
  10.46 p.m.
  Mr. John Rankin: From time to time in our debates on education we have advanced the claim from both sides of the House that in view of the need for more technologists and better technological education, our technological institutes should be allowed to award their own degrees. I see the hon. Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. George) smiling at that statement. He will recollect that he supported me last July when I dealt with that matter in our education debate. That demand is now being pressed on the Secretary of State by the Royal College in Glasgow.
  The hon. Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Henderson-Stewart) said that there is indifference. He said that the technological college—that is to say institutions like the Royal College—and the university are not the same. But that is not the case. The hon. Gentleman ought to know that the classes in mathematics, science and engineering subjects in the Royal Technical College in Glasgow are on an equal academic level with the same types of classes in the university, and attendance at those classes in the Royal College allows students to sit for the university examination and take the appropriate degree in engineering or other aspects of their education.
  It is accepted that their standards are exactly the same. Because of that, the claim is being advanced that the technological colleges in Scotland should have the right—a right which is recognised in many other countries—to award their own degree and have the status that is conceded to the university.
  The hon. Member for Pollok is now getting from his own Front Bench the
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  reply to the claim that he has made on many occasions. Instead of the central institution having the right to expand, it is to be further restricted. No one can regard that decision as anything other than one of the most reactionary educational steps that the present Government have taken. I am certain that it will be received with the deepest disappointment amongst the students and staff of Glasgow's Royal Technical College when they realise what is happening.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) very properly emphasised the size of the problem that faces us. It is a problem that should have been tackled long ago. It is a tremendous problem and I want to put it in a setting which is not always appreciated. We talk about the number of young people who enrol in our technical courses at the opening of the winter session. At the moment, the only liaison of any account that exists between the boy who leaves at the age of 15 and the technological colleges are the evening classes.
  From time to time, the numbers that enrol may show an increase and we feel happy, but that is not the true picture. From my own experience as the head of one of these institutions in Glasgow, I found over ten years of work in that side of education that to get a third-year technical class of 30 students, I had to enrol or have on my roll four classes in the first year of 40 students each. In other words, I needed 160 boys in the first year to produce a third-year class of 30 boys. Those 30 were the boys who were going ahead to begin the education that would carry them to the Higher National Certificate at the technological college or, perhaps, after a seven-year course, to the degree of B. Sc.
  The reason why there is that enormous wastage is because it is quite impossible for a boy to start work at 8 o'clock in the morning, finish at 5 or 5.30 at night, travel, as many boys must, half an hour or, in some cases, an hour to get home, change, have tea, go back for their further education classes at 7.30 at night, carry on until 9.30 in the first year, then go home, do whatever homework is necessary and be ready to resume work at 8 o'clock next morning.
  That has been going on in Scotland for years. The result of it, due not only

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  to mental but also to physical weariness, has been an abnormal wastage, of which we know too little. I hope that the Joint Under-Secretary, who is interested in education, is acquainted with that side of the problem. Therefore, it becomes important that we should try to abandon that form of education as far as possible and get our day-release classes into operation.
  During the course, which is very heavy, a boy has to set aside nearly all the little social engagements to which between the ages of 15 and 17 he looks forward, including dances and conversation with his girl. Boys of that age are beginning to open their eyes to these distractions, which, I suppose in a way help to make their contribution to the educational wastage.
  When I saw that the Joint Under-Secretary was speaking in Scotland at the week-end, I followed what he had to say with great interest. Addressing the 18 gentlemen who met in a room at St. Andrew's House, Edinburgh, to talk about Scotland's technical future—and we wish them well in the tremendous job to which they are setting their hands—he recalled the Government announcing, in 1956, a building programme of new and improved technical colleges to the value of £10 million in Scotland, in the five years ending in 1961—and remember we are almost half way through 1959. "A few weeks ago", he added, "we announced an extension of that programme by a further £6 million in the years 1961–1964. The building programme is making steady progress, in the sense that the plans are going ahead".
  The plans are "going ahead," and we may hope to see some concrete result of these plans in the 1960s. It is more than three years since we were told about the £10 million programme, and in the City of Glasgow not one new technical college is even being started. February, 1956, to May, 1959—and we are still planning for a future that has not produced in Glasgow even the beginning of one day-release college.
  We have been planning through all those three years. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman can give us a more satisfactory account of what has been done in that time than is contained in his statement. Certainly, in Glasgow there have
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  been two renovations. Allan Glen's, used as a technical school, has been modernised, but when I left it, as a boy, it needed modernising, and that was not the day before yesterday. We were carrying on evening classes in that school until very recently. Those are the only two contributions that have come to Glasgow, and they are not new; they are replacements, and Glasgow is still in the position in which it has been for too many years.
  This is surely one of the cruellest gaps that exists in our educational system—the gap from 15 to 18 years of age. Here is the background to delinquency and all the other problems that worry us. The children of delinquency are being reared in that vacuum about which nothing has been done during these many years.
  I wish to put one point to the hon. Gentleman about the Regulations. My hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison), referred to the figure of 30 in dealing with the size of classes. In Regulation 3 it is stated that the number in the class for theoretical instruction shall not exceed 40. If the hon. Gentleman finds it difficult or impossible to do anything about that number, would he think of laying down the provision that 30 shall be the normal maximum for day and evening technical classes? I do not think that that should be very difficult to accept.
  I would also ask the hon. Gentleman what he means by "whole-time" courses to which reference is made at various points in the Regulations. Should he not define that a little more closely? Instead of talking about a normal "whole-time" course, could he not define a whole-time course as, being a "course of ten sessions"? I will tell him the reason for that. In these colleges, once they are under way, we shall have what we call combined appointments; that is, the staffs will be engaged during the day and also during the evening. That is a heavy job if they are teaching all day and then have to teach in the evening session. I am referring, of course, to the assistant teachers.
  Admittedly, the hon. Gentleman may tell us that, they are getiting £200 a year for that. Yes, but he has to realise that the day school teacher who takes this work at night will be getting his day

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  school salary plus the full evening school salary for the evenings he teaches. Obviously, if we are to have that different type of treatment in these new colleges it will not be easy to recruit teachers for them, if they are to be tied during the day and tied also during the night—unless the hon. Gentleman will try to meet the problem by defining the working day, in terms of session's. That would ensure that the teacher would have some time in the evening, or during the day, free, to attend to the many other duties which are associated with the running of a school or college. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will think about that suggestion.
  The hon. Gentleman must keep in mind, I should imagine, the problem of supply. If there are to be greater inducements to come into these colleges he must remember that he may attract teachers especially in maths and science, away from the day schools, and denude them of such teachers. As I said in the debate which the hon. Gentleman was, unfortunately, not able to attend, in Glasgow now 900 teachers are needed, and by the beginning of the next session, because of the lack of staff, we may be faced with part-time education.
  I think that we could give Part I of the Regulation's a general welcome because they give the local authorities a very wide discretion in the conduct of these further education classes, but Part II must be looked at carefully.
  In Part III, in which the hon. Gentleman deals with further education centres, he says, in Regulation 16 (4):
  "further education centre means an institution for the provision of further education".
  He goes on to say that:
  "the expression does not include a university, a theological college or a hostel or other residence used exclusively by students attending a university or theological college".
  Sub-paragraph (b) of the paragraph says that it does not include a central institution. It would appear, to me at least, that there is some ambiguity there, because the many clauses dealt with by my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson) seemed to apply to central institutions, and yet the definition of "further education centre" excludes a central institution."
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  Like my hon. Friends and perhaps hon. Gentlemen opposite, I am sorry that time is running so much against us, because there is a good deal more to explore in these Regulations which will shape the course of our technological education for many years ahead. I hope that the Joint Under-Secretary will be able to resolve same of our fears.
  11.6 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Niall Macpherson): As my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, East (Sir J. Henderson-Stewart) and other hon. Members have said, this debate is on a matter of very great importance. I think that the best service I can do the House to start with is to show exactly what the Regulations do. I will later come to the other points which have been raised.
  As is said in the Explanatory Memorandum, the Regulations replace the Central Institutions (Scotland) Grant Regulations, 1947, the Further Education (Scotland) Code, 1952, and the Further Education (Voluntary Associations) (Scotland) Grant Regulations, 1952. The main reason for the new Regulations was the introduction of the arrangements for general grant together with the abolition of the Education (Scotland) Fund which was effected by the Local Government and Miscellaneous Financial Provisions (Scotland) Act, 1958.
  As a result of these changes the expenditure of education authorities on the provision of all forms of education is no longer to be aided by grant from the Education (Scotland) Fund, and so Regulations made under Section 71 of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1946, empowering the Secretary of State to prescribe conditions for the payment of that grant, are no longer appropriate. Among such Regulations were the Further Education (Scotland) Code, 1952, to which I have referred, which Part I of the new Regulations replaces.
  Part I is based on the power conferred on the Secretary of State by Section 1 (8) of the Education (Scotland) Act—which was altered by an amendment introduced by the 1958 Act—to make Regulations prescribing the standards and general requirements to which every education authority shall conform in exercising its functions under Section 1, which lays on education authorities the duty of providing further education as well as primary and secondary education.

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  The abolition of the Fund also made it necessary to revise the two other sets of Regulations—the one dealing with central institutions and the other dealing with voluntary associations—and as they covered similar objects it was decided to form a single set of regulations dealing with grants to both central institutions and voluntary associations concerned with further education, whether technical, adult or social and recreational. That is the purpose of Part II of the Regulations.
  The hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson) questioned the desirability of combining central institutions and further education establishments—technical colleges—in the same Regulations. In doing so, we are implementing a recommendation of the Advisory Council on Education which was made in its Report on Further Education published in 1952. The Council advised us that one code of regulations should be framed to regulate all activities in the wide field of further education, and that all voluntary organisations in this field should be eligible for grant under one set of regulations.
  Mr. Malcolm MacPherson: I think that the hon. Member is confusing me with my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson). The fact that the Advisory Council has recommended something does not make it sacrosanct. A great many of the Council's recommendations have not been enacted.
  Mr. Niall Macpherson: I shall be coming to some of the points which the hon. Gentleman has in mind. I agree that advice is there to be taken or not to be taken.
  It may be for the convenience of the House if I indicate what changes of substance these Regulations are actually making through the replacement of the three previous Statutory Instruments. Part I makes two minor changes. Some reference has been made to Regulation 3 and to the size of classes. That was already dealt with by regulation. What is new is the proviso and that was inserted at the request of the local authority associations, who felt—we think rightly—that 20 might be too large a class for instruction where machinery was used
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  and where matters of safety were involved. That is why the Regulation says:
  … or such lesser number for either form 01 instruction as the Secretary of State may determine in relation to any particular subject or group of subjects".
  There has been a great deal of comment on the size of classes. The hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs thought that in some cases classes should be bigger than 40. That is covered by the proviso to Regulation 3 which says:
  "Provided that any of the said numbers of students may be exceeded in exceptional circumstances."
  I should inform the House that when these Regulations were sent out, they were covered by a circular, Circular 405. I think that it would be for the convenience of the House if I put a copy of that circular in the Library. It is very informative and shows the guidance which the Secretary of State has given to local authorities. Paragraph 35 of that circular will probably meet the point which the hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) had in mind. It says:
  "For vocational courses generally and for courses of general education for young people the number normally in attendance at any class should not exceed 30 pupils for theoretical instruction."
  The position there is that the maxima already existing are retained, but education authorities are advised not to exceed 30 pupils in attendance at any class.
  There is one good reason for that. It is, unfortunately, that numbers tend to dwindle, but the same circular advised local authorities not to exceed the numbers to start with merely because they will dwindle later, for the very good reason that, by exceeding the numbers in the first place, they will probably cause the numbers to dwindle later. I think that we are probably in sympathy with the hon. Lady's views, but at present we do not think it desirable to prescribe a lesser number for particular subjects. We have, however, power in the Regulations to do that.
  Miss Herbison: We have to consider what is in the Regulations, and there the figure given is 40. It is not good enough merely to have a booklet which gives advice to local authorities and say that

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  technical subjects should not have classes larger than 30. The proviso says:
  "Provided that any of the said numbers of students may be exceeded in exceptional circumstances."
  Surely it would be better to have the figure of 30 in the proviso so that it would be permissible to exceed it if there were exceptional circumstances.
  Mr. Macpherson: The hon. Lady, and the House, will realise that these Regulations are mainly what one might term machinery Regulations in that they are replacing others because of changes which have been made.
  There is another minor change in that the provision in the Further Education (Scotland) Code, 1952, for schemes and records of work for further education centres has been dropped. H.M. inspectors advise that these schemes are accepted everywhere, and that teachers, certainly at the more advanced stages, would consider such an explicit requirement as this to be a reflection on their professional competence; but it is possible for the inspectors to ask for details of the schemes, and for the records of work to be, produced to them when it is considered necessary. Any shortcomings which they may encounter during their visits to further education centres can be discussed then with teachers or principals, or with directors of education.
  The changes in Part II of the Regulations, to which the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs drew attention, concern the change in the method of assessment of grant for central institutions. That was introduced provisionally by the Central Institutions (Scotland) Grant (Amendment No. 1) Provisional Regulations, 1958. Up to now grants from the Education (Scotland) Fund towards the maintenance of the central institutions have been finally determined on the basis of the amount by which recognised expenditure has exceeded income during the institution's financial year.
  In future, the annual amount of grant will be assessed in advance on the basis of the institution's estimate and intimated to the institution. In other words, a deficiency finance system is being replaced by what one may call proper budgeting and I suggest to the hon. Gentleman the
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  Member for Stirling and Falkirk that that is "on the way up" so far as academic responsibility is concerned.
  The hon. Member for Dundee, East asked me about progress with the day-release courses and I can tell him that the numbers have steadily risen, since the publication of the 1956 White Paper, from 25,000 in 1955 to over 33,000 last year. But, all the same, we recognise that we are in a relatively worse position than England in this respect and the Government are directing their effort towards co-operation with the education authorities to provide new local technical colleges so as to enable places to be found for apprentices and others as they leave school. The intention is that the number of places for day-release students should be doubled. It may be, however, that the disparity between Scotland and England will not be rectified until the 16 new colleges which are planned actually come into use in the early 1960s.
  Proposals to the value of £9·9 million in respect of the 1956 programme of £10 million have been approved. It is hoped that work to the value of at least a further £2 million, in addition to the work already completed or under construction, will be started this year. Circular No. 405 announced an expansion of the programme whereby a further £2 million in each of the three years 1961–1964 will be allotted, making a grand total of £16 million for technical colleges and central institutions.
  Mr. G. M. Thomson: The hon. Gentleman has agreed that there is the leeway of 30,000 to make up to reach the proportions of England. Is he telling us that the 1958 Report will show an increase in the last twelve months of less than 1,500?
  Mr. Macpherson: Over the three years there has been an increase of more than 8,000. We hope that as the building programme gets into its stride and arrangements for co-operation—which are at present being made—take effect, the number of places to be provided will increase very much and also, what is of the utmost importance, that those places will be taken up.
  Miss Herbison: Have the Government decided to allocate this extra money because these new colleges are being built so speedily and they feel that within the

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  time we could use more money? In other words, of the colleges planned, how many have been completed? At what stage of construction are they and when may we hope that they will be completed?
  Mr. Macpherson: Proposals to the value of £9·9 million in the 1956 programme of work to be started—I emphasise "started"—in the years 1956–61, have been approved. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) said that nothing at all had been done in Glasgow. There have been two extensions to the Royal College of Science and Technology. Further work is going on there and at the Hotel School and at the Stow College of Building. They are not the only projects which have been started.
  The value of work under construction at present is over £½ million and tenders are under consideration in the Department at the time to the value of £1·2 million. There are plans approved, but tenders not submitted for a further £1·4 million. So it is not idle to say that good progress has been made in the programme.
  Miss Herbison: flow much has been begun in the whole of Scotland?
  Mr. Macpherson: In a matter of this kind planning is of the utmost importance. It is essential to get the provision right in relation to needs. That has not been an easy matter. It has not been easy to get all the industries concerned to come forward and state their needs, but now, with the setting up of the new Scottish Technical Education Consultative Committee, which was launched on Friday, we are hopeful that progress will be very much quicker in the co-operation which is so essential between industry and education.
  The actual planning and building of technical colleges is a matter for the education authorities in conjunction with the Education Department. I can assure the House that there is no undue delay in getting on with the planning, but I insist that it is essential that the planning should be right from the start if we are to get the best results.
  I have been asked a great number of questions. On the question of staff, the answer to the hon. Member for Govan is that a full-time teacher is defined in the Teachers' Salaries Regulations as a teacher employed for 10 sessions or more
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  in one week. I think that the hon. Member will find that what he has in mind is fully covered. It is not intended to overwork teachers by employing them all day and in the evening as well. It is intended to have staffs which will be sufficient to deal with the whole of the commitments of the technical colleges. Technical colleges will be dealing mainly with day-release classes and evening classes which are co-ordinated with them.
  Mr. Rankin: As that definition is not made in the Regulations, will the Minister see that it is made in the circular which he says is being issued?
  Mr. Macpherson: I think that the hon. Member will find that the circular is very comprehensive. In particular, it deals with the need for co-ordination between the school and the technical college, which the hon. Member for Dundee, East mentioned.
  Regulation 11 (3, a), on fees, refers to central institutions and approved associations and not to further education centres.
  Miss Herbison: That is not what it says.
  Mr. Macpherson: It has been customary for the Secretary of State to control fees for central institutions and non-education authority further education centres. This is primarily a matter for the central institutions and the other bodies concerned. He has done nothing more in respect of evening classes than exercise an influence in that matter. The intention with respect to day-release courses is that fees should be brought into alignment, and the circular urges local authorities to do that.
  On this I make two points. First, we are dealing with a pooling arrangement; in other words, the education authority in whose area the provision is made will be providing facilities not only for its own area but also for a much wider area, and the intention is that it should be open to anybody to put down his name for a course even if it is outside his area. He will not need a permit. It is, therefore, highly desirable to have similarity of fees. Secondly, bursaries are available to contribute towards the payment of fees and in any case of hardship fees will be met in that way. I do not think that the hon. Lady need fear that fees will

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  prevent people from attending these courses. That has not been our experience.
  These matters will be considered with great care by the Advisory Council. I hope that, on that assurance, hon. Members will not press the Motion.
  Mr. G. M. Thomson: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  PORTUGAL (MR. AND MRS. TRIST)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. E. Wakefield.]
  11.30 p.m.
  Mr. William Teeling: I want to bring before the House the case of two constituents of mine, Mr. and Mrs. Trist, who, the House will remember, were found dead in a motel just outside Lisbon a few months ago, with their two children, aged four and three, not only alive but apparently unharmed.
  This is a particularly tragic case, as it leaves those two children completely orphaned. It is also tragic from my own point of view in that I have always had a deep affection for Portugal, had many Portuguese friends at school, and have many friends in that country now. I also know that the Trists themselves were particularly interested in Portugal, had gone there for their own special enjoyment, and were looking forward to a very happy holiday.
  It is also unfortunate that we should now be having some differences with the Portuguese about this case, as this is the year when the Portuguese are about to have a trade fair, in which we are making every effort to take part. The case has also caused considerable international interest. Moreover, by the insistence of the Portuguese that the cause of death was clam poisoning the whole of the sea food industry in Lisbon has, in the last few months, gone almost bankrupt, as people will not take the risk of eating it, as they used to do, late in the evening. Another unhappy feature is that the family has not had a single word of sympathy, or of regret at what happened,
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  either from the Portuguese Government or from the Portuguese Embassy in London.
  It happened that when it was first announced that the Trists had died, a journalist from this country was there on holiday, and sent back a report to his newspaper. That report was read by two old friends of the Trists—Dr. Pragnell, of Southall, and Mr. Griffiths. They had been together in the Navy and had continued the friendship afterwards. Dr. Pragnell was not at all satisfied, as a doctor, with the story as he read it in the paper.
  Tonight, I want to bring forward three points: first, what really was the cause of their death; secondly, how far the Foreign Office makes itself responsible for helping British people in conditions like this; and, thirdly, what may be done in future to make things safer for people travelling abroad—or easier if anything goes wrong.
  Dr. Pragnell tried at once to go to Portugal to see what he could find out for himself, and I will later describe his adventures in doing so. I must stress that, at the time, neither he nor anybody else connected with the family knew that the Trists had taken out any insurance for the children—and for themselves—so that the money then expended by Dr. Pragnell and, indeed, by the Home Office pathologist, Dr. Keith Simpson, and others of the Trist family afterwards—including the cost of returning the bodies to this country—was spent entirely without knowledge that there was any cash coming back at all.
  The accident insurance payment for the children of £10,000 is met, but that has nothing to do with the fact that, as the father was earning £4,000 or £5,000 a year, those representing the children's interests could, had the deaths occurred in this country, have been able to sue for compensation for the loss of the parents when the children were only three and four years old, and it is really on that account I raise the matter tonight.
  There is a very strong conflict of evidence as to how these two people died. I understand that, according to Portuguese law, one cannot claim for compensation for death caused—as we say—by carbon monoxide from the geyser in the bathroom of the motel, if the Portuguese authorities have definitely stated that they

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  died from some other cause. It is because the relatives, having brought back the bodies to this country and had them examined, are convinced that the Trists did die of carbon monoxide poisoning that we want to take issue with the Portuguese or again review exactly what happened.
  It is possible to ask the Portuguese to do this again because the Portuguese verdict, a copy of which the Foreign Office sent to me, is, to my mind, rather vague in its final decisions. For instance, the Portuguese authorities say that they only investigated because of the question of criminal responsibility. I should like to quote two points from the summing up. One is:
  "The Public Prosecutor has to point out that according to the law, the purpose of the investigation is only to gather the data required as ground for a criminal charge and that steps should be taken not only to prove the culpability of the defendants but also those which may contribute to prove their innocence and irresponsibility."
  It goes on to say:
  "The mere private interests, however respectable they may be, are naturally situated outside this sphere."
  The report then says:
  "Acting only on the principle that nothing should be taken as proved which is capable of better proof … "
  and then states that they are prepared to look into the matter again if necessary. And finally, they say:
  "Having, therefore, no need to change the position adopted, the record continues to await production of better proof."
  That is signed at Almada, on 13th April, which is only a fortnight ago.
  It seems to me that there is a possibility here that we could bring this matter up once again with the Portuguese Government, although I understand from Scotland Yard that the Portuguese authorities have seen our own verdict and have so far not commented on it. But the Portuguese verdict that death was due to clam poisoning is, in detail, rather vague. I have from Dr. Pragnell a few answers to some of the points stated in it which I should like to bring to the attention of the House. He says:
  "They say ' that sickness indicated poisoning '—it is equally well a symptom of fume poisoning.
  Other symptoms of food or clam poisoning were not noted—hence my original decision that they had not died in this way.
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  The tests carried out at the Institute of Forensic Medicine are only known through what they told me. The tests which they described to me would have been positive on any body tested 36 hours after death in their climate and cannot be regarded as evidence of poison in either the clams or the bodies.
  A waiter ate the remainder of the same dish of clams and he remained well.
  The Portuguese Press and statements have made much of the fact that someone else died of shellfish poisoning soon after and that these shellfish were collected from the same area—but according to their own press statements the shellfish were not clams.
  We are informed on good authority that there are no poisonous clams around the Portuguese coast at that time of year.
  At my interview with the Institute they produced an English and French textbook describing clam poisoning. Both described the areas for finding these as in the Americas.
  Neither of these textbooks mentioned vomit as a symptom and the Institute doctors seemed so astonished when I pointed this out that even my interpreter remarked on this afterwards as having 'got them worried.'
  Both textbooks said that a lot of clams would have to be eaten to kill, the least number being twelve per person. The Trists only ate 19 between them. When I pointed this out it was said that one was in their experience sufficient, but not less. Therefore, there must have been two clams of a poisonous nature in the Trists' dish. But these originally formed part of a collection of 500 kilos and no one else was ill.
  The Portuguese say and told me that they thought fume poisoning impossible because the children lived in the same house, but there are many cases on record where that has happened. The Institute doctors expressed themselves surprised to hear this.
  They say that there is no carbon monoxide in Mr. Trists's body and little in that of Mrs. Twist. They never took muscle from either body and this would be necessary to make a definite statement of this kind. They first made this statement two hours after my visit to the institute in the form of a message to the Embassy saying that there was no such poison in either body 'as was expected'. Nevertheless, two days afterwards they reopened the coffins with the consent of our Consul to take blood specimens without which they could never have carried out any test at all.
  The Portuguese have repeatedly claimed that the geyser concerned has been examined and found satisfactory. We never suggested that it was not. The heater concerned is listed by the manufacturers for sink use—that is, intermittent use, not bath water heating. It is eight times the size of one which would be permitted in this country without a vent.
  They say that there is adequate ventilation in the window, but the chief scientist of Calor Gas says that the openings would only be sufficient to supply the machine with air and would not allow of any escape of fumes.

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  The Portuguese state that they have both Mrs. Trist's lungs. Yet most of one of these was removed by Sir Russell Brock several years ago."
  Dr. Keith Simpson has seen this report which I have quoted and he has agreed with it. He has told me that the vital organs of both Mr. and Mrs. Trist's bodies can still be seen by anybody who wishes to make a test, or study the matter in Guy's Hospital. Therefore, it might be possible that the Portuguese doctors would take up the matter again and look further into it and see whether they cannot come to another decision.
  In his final summing up of the case when the bodies were brought back and were brought before the coroner's court here, Dr. Keith Simpson makes some very clear statements, which most people who have followed the case have already read. I will not, therefore, go into any detail except to give Dr. Keith Simpson's conclusions, in which he said:
  "From a consideration of:—

  (a) the circumstances of the case:—

  (b) the distinctive coloration of the livid stains of the skin and of the blood (and bone marrow and muscle);

  (c) the spectroscopic analysis figures measuring 50 per cent. or over of HbCO (and from the negative tests for the specific alcohol/water soluble dinoflagellate plankton alkaloid responsible for clam or muscle poisoning)

  … I am in no doubt whatsoever that the cause of death in each case was solely inhalation of carbon monoxide gas (fumes). Postmortem and laboratory tests reveal no other positive factual evidence; indeed, the high saturations reached exclude other possibilities."
  Surely the Foreign Office will take the verdict of the coroner here, of the Home Office pathologist, Dr. Keith Simpson, and of the Calor Gas experts as sufficient proof and satisfaction that they are correct. That being so, the Foreign Office must surely take it upon itself to press the Portuguese Government at least a little way on the possibility of the case being reopened.
  There is also the British Medical Association article which appeared on 11th April, which gave full details and which. I understand, has also been seen in Portugal. Surely the B.M.A. and the Portuguese doctors, even if they do not belong to the same international organisation, could somehow come together and discuss the matter and see whether the case cannot be reopened.
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  I do not have time to go into the complaints that were made by Dr. Pragnell—as I promised to do in this debate. but I will send them to the Minister—about some of the things that happened at the start of the case when he was going abroad, including the unwillingness of, admittedly minor, officials at the Foreign Office to take the responsibility for stopping the funeral and his difficulties in seeing the bodies or interviewing people connected with the matter in Portugal at the time, but I ask the Foreign Office this question: what is the position with regard to British citizens abroad? We have the case now of a girl in Northern Italy who was sent to prison, and the only way that we were able to get her out was through a Conservative candidate, somewhere in the Birmingham area, financing the case and going bail for her.
  The case of my own constituent, Mr. Topham, comes to mind. He has still not received any compensation for having been shot in Cuba. Generally, there is a feeling among many people that the British Consular side, since the amalgamation of the whole of the Foreign Office, is not really as vitally interested as it used to be in looking after the individual interests of British travellers abroad. If the Foreign Office cannot do so, I am not complaining about it, but I should merely ask that it should give us some outline of what it can or cannot do. In the old days one sent a gunboat. Those days are well and truly over, but there is such a thing as using a little trade influence, especially in places like Cuba, where one could insist that we wanted to try to get something for our people.
  Then there is the question of people who die abroad. They have to be brought back. The Trist family, who are not at all well off, have themselves had to find at least £500 to bring the bodies back, and it was only by bringing them back and having them examined here that we find the difference of opinion on whether the poisoning was by clams or by carbon monoxide. That being so, is there anything that can be done to help people going abroad?
  I believe that if one is in the Merchant Navy there is a special Act of Parliament whereby the companies concerned have to insure one, so that whatever happens to one abroad, if one is ill, alive

  185
  or dead, one's body is to be brought home. The same idea applies to motor cars which one takes abroad, and in Hungary, I am told, there is an arrangement whereby one leaves the country only if one insures compulsorily.
  Is there nothing that we could look into for the future, whereby it may be made almost compulsory for a very small insurance to be taken out to cover the case of people dying abroad? There is the grave risk that cases like this may happen again, and that is why I beg my hon. Friend to look into this matter on those lines. The Trist children will one day grow up to find that they have been left this £10,000, but that is the insurance here. They will ask: "What did people do, when we were aged four and three, to make sure that we got some compensation for what happened to us in Portugal?"
  I should also like to speak for the people who will be travelling there in the future. There are about two dozen motels, all round Lisbon, to which people go, and I understand that they are very dangerous. The Calor gas people say they are actually lethal. Admittedly, as Dr. Keith Simpson has told me, about 850 people a year die of carbon monoxide poisoning in this country, so Portugal is not alone in this. A majority, I understand, live in caravans in this country. There is a danger connected with all this, and everything should be done to make sure that there is safety for people travelling abroad from carbon monoxide poisoning in small rooms.
  I would beg the Foreign Office to do everything in its power to make it possible, whether by legal action or otherwise, for a fresh opening of the case in Portugal, so that a decision compatible with our own decision here can be reached, or attempted.
  11.49 p.m
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Robert Allan): The case which has been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. W. Teeling) is one which has shocked and distressed us all. The circumstance—death on holiday—of this young and successful couple was, in itself, bad enough, but it was made worse by the terrible experiences of their young children. My hon. Friend and others
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  associated with him are, I know, raising this matter and pursuing it at considerable inconvenience to themselves in an attempt to look after the interests of those children, and, naturally, they command much of our sympathy.
  My hon. Friend mentioned early in his remarks the absence of any expression of regret from official Portuguese circles. I find it a little difficult to know exactly what could have been done. After all, these two people died in Portugal as the result of an accident—using that word in its widest and lay sense. In similar circumstances in this country I doubt whether there would have been official expressions of regret. There is no doubt, however—and I should like to stress this, and it was indicated in the remarks of the Public Prosecutor at Almada—that Portuguese opinion was greatly moved by this tragedy; and from other reports which I have received there is no doubt that the sympathy of the Portuguese people did go out to these children.
  My hon. Friend referred rather briefly and vaguely to certain complaints which might have been made about officials in the Foreign Office and in Portugal. I should like to go into this in some detail with him, because I have gone into this case thoroughly, and I have in my head, and in these papers here, facts which will show, I think, that everybody concerned in this case has acted reasonably, sympathetically, and as speedily and efficiently as the circumstances permitted.
  My hon. Friend also said, in that general connection, that he would like to know what the Consular Service really does. Consuls in posts abroad afford whatever protection and help they can within the framework of the laws of the countries concerned to help British subjects, companies or institutions in their districts. Consuls perform many other necessary duties, such as registering births, marriages and deaths, legalising and witnessing documents. They have special duties in connection with shipping. In any difficulty or dispute a British subject abroad can turn to the consul for help. An important part of a consul's duties is the maintenance of good relations with the local authorities so that they may give British travellers and residents the best assistance they can.
  If a British subject—and this is germane to the case we are discussing—

  187
  wishes to take legal proceedings in a foreign country the consul will help him to select a suitable local lawyer. He will, if he is asked, keep in touch with the lawyer during the proceedings, and will endeavour to ensure that British subjects are not subjected to any discrimination, or denied any of the proper facilities which they need to maintain their rights.
  So far as I am aware, the merging of the two Services, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, has been to the great advantage of both Services.
  Before I come to the main issue I should like to take one other point he mentioned, and that was the question of insurance. The idea which he raised is, of course, a wider one than one which would affect the Foreign Office only. I think that it is a proposition which deserves investigation. I would say, however, that the Foreign Office, even now, does attach considerable importance to insurance and does try to draw travellers' attention to it. For instance, we put out a notice in the Press and asked the B.B.C. to put out a notice, last month, which, after drawing the attention to the heavy expenses which may be incurred by intending travellers, ended by saying:
  "Insurance cover at a small premium is a wise precaution which many travellers are now taking."
  We are now beginning to lay emphasis on the importance of insurance in a leaflet called "Essential Information for Travellers" which goes out with passports. We are also trying to negotiate reciprocal agreements whereby the benefits of the health services in countries could be interchangeable.
  In the very few minutes left to me I should like to go back to the main question. I cannot go into it in very great detail, because it is largely a conflict of medical evidence, on which I am not qualified to speak. My hon. Friend referred to the decision of the coroner here and to the evidence of Dr. Keith Simpson. He referred to Dr. Simpson as the Home Office pathologist. That is, of course,
  188
  true, but I must stress that in this case Dr. Simpson was employed not in his official capacity, but privately, and, therefore, his findings are not official findings but findings simply in his capacity as a pathologist.
  One does not need to be a criminologist to know of the international reputation which Dr. Simpson has. His evidence must carry the greatest weight. It is also, however, important to point out that the Portuguese medical experts who came to different conclusions from Dr. Simpson worked on the spot, immediately after the events, that they had certain special knowledge of local shellfish, and the fact that the Portuguese had no doubt about their verdict is proved by the considerable steps which they took, with the resultant hardship which was noted by my hon. Friend, to prevent the sale of shellfish in a wide area.
  It is not for the Foreign Office to decide between these conflicting medical accounts. This matter has already been before the judiciary in both countries. However, my hon. Friend has made certain points, and, without committing myself, I should like to consider whether we could not draw the attention of the Portuguese Government to some of the things which he mentioned. I do not know, for instance, whether they have seen the evidence which was placed before our coroner—though they have seen the verdict of our coroner. Perhaps we could find out.
  However, the hard fact remains that two judicial bodies in England and Portugal have reached different conclusions. This conflict can now only be reconciled through legal processes, and here the Foreign Office is not involved. Finally, I would simply say that if the representatives of the late Mr. and Mrs. Trist wish to take legal steps the Foreign Office is, of course, only too ready to help them both here and in Portugal in every way that it possibly can.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at two minutes to Twelve o'clock.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Drugs and Dressings (Private Patients)
  Drugs and Dressings (Private Patients)
  Atomic Radiation (Measurement)
  Atomic Radiation (Measurement)
  Poliomyelitis Vaccine, Bristol
  Poliomyelitis Vaccine, Bristol
  HOSPITALS
    Oldham Geriatric Hospital
    Oldham Geriatric Hospital
    Hospitals, Cardiff (Admissions)
    Hospitals, Cardiff (Admissions)
  REFUGEES (GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE)
  REFUGEES (GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE)
  FOREIGN MINISTERS' MEETING
  FOREIGN MINISTERS' MEETING
  SPAIN (NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANISATION)
  SPAIN (NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANISATION)
GERMANY
  Rearmament
  Rearmament
  Nazi Leaders (Recorded Speeches)
  Nazi Leaders (Recorded Speeches)
EMPLOYMENT
  West Bromwich
  West Bromwich
  Scientific Glassblowing (Waddon Training Centre)
  Scientific Glassblowing (Waddon Training Centre)
  Sunderland
  Sunderland
  Street, Wells, Frome and Shepton Mallet
  Street, Wells, Frome and Shepton Mallet
  Aberdeen
  Aberdeen
  Kilmarnock
  Kilmarnock
  Cardiff (Disabled Persons)
  Cardiff (Disabled Persons)
NATIONAL SERVICE
  Coal Miners
  Coal Miners
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Cereals Deficiency Grant (Claim)
  Cereals Deficiency Grant (Claim)
  Apple Juice (Imports from France)
  Apple Juice (Imports from France)
  Pig Industry
  Pig Industry
  Imported Produce (Marking)
  Imported Produce (Marking)
  Charollais Bulls
  Charollais Bulls
  Agricultural Land
  Agricultural Land
  Rabbits
  Rabbits
  Fishing Industry (Committee)
  Fishing Industry (Committee)
PENSIONS AND NATIONAL INSURANCE
  Workers, Heavy Industry (Benefits)
  Workers, Heavy Industry (Benefits)
  Retirement Pensions
  Retirement Pensions
  Widows (Sickness Benefit)
  Widows (Sickness Benefit)
COAL
  Long-Term Requirements (Review)
  Long-Term Requirements (Review)
ELECTRICITY
  Transmission Lines, Canterbury-Dungeness
  Transmission Lines, Canterbury-Dungeness
  Nuclear Fuel (Storage)
  Nuclear Fuel (Storage)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Passports and Identity Cards
  Passports and Identity Cards
SCOTLAND
  Electricity Generating Station, Fife
  Electricity Generating Station, Fife
SOUTHERN RHODESIA
  Magistrates' Court Amendments Act
  Magistrates' Court Amendments Act
COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS
  Prime Ministers (Conference)
  Prime Ministers (Conference)
ROYAL AIR FORCE
  Compensation Payment (Mrs. Gifford)
  Compensation Payment (Mrs. Gifford)
HOUSING
  Compulsory Clearance Schemes (Compensation)
  Compulsory Clearance Schemes (Compensation)
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY
  Factory, Oldham (Tenancy)
  Factory, Oldham (Tenancy)
  Microbiological Research Establishment
  Microbiological Research Establishment
  Biological Warfare
  Biological Warfare
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Government Chemist's Department (Ministerial Responsibility)
  Government Chemist's Department (Ministerial Responsibility)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHAIRMAN On the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chelmsford

BUILDINGS FOR COTTON INDUSTRY
2.35 p.m.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, in rising to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper, may I say that I have no financial interest in the cotton industry in this country?
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in connection with the announced proposals by which the Exchequer will contribute to machinery expenditure for the cotton industry reorganisation scheme, they will, by reason of the example of North America, which has successfully demonstrated that to obtain full advantage of multi-shift operation machinery should be placed only in new single-storey atmosphere-controlled buildings, now consider inclusion in the proposals of finance for such buildings on a scale at least comparable to proposed contribution contemplated for the steel industry.]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE): My Lords, the Government fully recognise the
2
importance of extended shift working in the cotton industry to ensure that where-ever new equipment is introduced it is used to its fullest economic advantage, and they believe this is accepted on both sides of the industry. The measures of financial assistance from the Exchequer of which I informed the House on April 23 represent a generous contribution towards the cost of eliminating surplus capacity in the cotton industry and of its re-equipment and modernisation. The Government do not feel justified in extending the grants for re-equipment and modernisation to buildings.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, arising out of that reply, and as it would seem that it is the intention of the Government to make the fullest use of multi-shift operation, I would ask the noble Earl whether the statement that assistance cannot be given for buildings does not seem to contradict his original statement. It will be clear that the best use cannot be made of the money expended on new equipment unless that equipment is put into modern buildings. Also, may I ask the noble Earl when we may expect a further statement or a White Paper on the Government proposals as to the amount of machinery it is contemplated would be appropriate for the industry?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, in reply to the first part of the noble Lord's supplementary, I would say that the industry did not ask for assistance to be given for buildings. I think that if we were to give it for one type of building, we should have to give it for all types. What has been agreed is that assistance should be given for new machinery. In reply to the second part

3
of the noble Lord's question, I would say that the President of the Board of Trade stated a few days ago that it is hoped to issue a White Paper before Whitsun, or at least in time for your Lordships to study it during the Whitsun Recess.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, may I ask the Minister to bear in mind that there is a long tradition in Lancashire against double-shift working, based largely on the fact that many of the operatives are women, and particularly married women. Whereas it must be accepted that the introduction of new machinery and its effective economic use will depend on double-shift working, I would ask the Government, in any statements they issue, to exercise the greatest tact and to make clear that there will be at all stages the closest consultation with the trade unions on how double-shift working should be introduced.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, all these points will be borne in mind. My right honourable friend is particularly anxious at every step to have full consultation with the trade unions.

IMPORT OF AMERICAN MOTOR CARS
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, I beg to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in pursuit of their repeated aims of further liberalisation of trade, they will now consider freeing the import of American automobiles but limiting them strictly to dimensions commensurate with the average of British produced automobiles which are conventionally suitable for British road conditions.]
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, these controls were imposed for balance of payments reasons, and they will be removed as soon asthe circumstances permit. It would not be possible to justify their retention in order to restrict the use of large cars on British roads.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, the noble Earl will be aware of the frequent complaints in both Houses of Parliament
4
about the import restrictions and practices employed in the United States. Would it not seem to him that there would be a good effect on Congress in the United States, where there is import restriction on top of a high protective tariff, and encourage them to lessen the protective tendencies, if evidence were given of relaxation on our part in a category like this?
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, it is intended to remove import restrictions as soon as the balance of payments position makes that possible. The present quota of 650 cars from America is, in fact, not fully taken up. It would not be possible to differentiate between large and small cars as the noble Lord's Question suggests. If we think it is a bad thing to have large cars on the roads we should have to prohibit large British cars as well as American. To discriminate in favour of big British cars would be unjustifiable.

THE INTERNATIONAL SITUATION
2.42 p.m.
LORD HENDERSON LORD HENDERSON rose to call attention to the international situation; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the Motion which I rise to move is a general one calling attention to the international situation. As things have developed, the date of our debate is perhaps not well chosen, in view of the fact that the Foreign Ministers' Conference will begin in a few days. This obviously imposes some limitation in discussing matters that would be dealt with there since, while Western policy and tactics have already been agreed, they are still wrapped in official silence. However, speakers will be able to range over the whole field of foreign affairs. I shall direct my remarks to three areas of concern, Berlin and Germany, the Middle East, and Tibet. I shall also have a few observations to make about the Free Trade Area.
It is almost six months since Mr. Khrushchev launched his brusque initiative on Berlin. As a result, the Foreign Ministers will meet at Geneva next week. It will be the first Foreign Ministers' conference on Germany for more than three years. It is doubtful whether it would be taking place now but for Mr. Khrushchev's speech on November17.

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The West did not appear to be planning a diplomatic initiative of their own, and they did not seem enthusiastic about another Summit Conference. There seemed to be a feeling that the opposing positions of East and West were so fixed that there was little early prospect of getting any agreement that would open the way to effective progress being started. We all know that the problem of Berlin cannot be divorced from the problem of German reunification and that the latter is an integral part of the problem of European security. The problem of security itself is wrapped up in a complex of stresses and pressures between East and West, and these have been successfully contained within the present uneasy European equilibrium only because mutual possession of the nuclear deterrent has compelled both sides to recognise that they have a common need and duty to prevent another war.
My Lords, we live too near to the brink as things are. This is too precarious a situation to be left at the mercy of continued cold war. The Prime Minister was right in seeking to bring a policy of negotiation right to the fore. There is no other way out of Europe's dangerous tensions and troubles. And now that we are on the eve of the first stage of the Foreign Ministers' meeting I hope Her Majesty's Government will not weaken in their readiness to go on to a Summit Conference. I expressed the view in the last international debate we held in your Lordships' House that
"if business is to be done with Mr. Khrushchev the best way to do it is face to face."
We on these Benches are convinced that a supreme effort at the highest level is called for. In taking part in such an effort the Prime Minister can count on the wholehearted backing of all Parties and of the nation.
Each side has announced that it will enter the Geneva Conference with its position confirmed by its Allies. That, of course, is to be expected. The West, so it would appear, have agreed on a so-called "package" plan which links a solution for Berlin and progress towards German reunification with proposals for European security. The Warsaw Pact meeting of Foreign Ministers considered that attempts to link the urgent problems of Germany and West Berlin with other problems such as the reunification of Germany would not be conducive to
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success at Geneva. They considered that every one of those problems was complicated in itself, and that "whoever ties them into a knot" thwarted agreement on the German treaty, West Berlin and European security. They thus virtually rejected a package deal.
But, of course, these statements are little more than trailers disclosing the preliminary position. Serious negotiation will have to be developed from that first stage. But it seems to me that too much should not be expected from the Geneva meeting. It is not likely to do more than provide each side with an opportunity to probe the mind and test the intentions of the other. It is but a useful preliminary to real negotiation and hard bargaining at the Summit. That will be the occasion when the unity of the West will be tested, and we must all hope that in the meantime the present signs that harmony in the West is not all that it should be will have disappeared altogether.
We welcome the fact that the British and American view has prevailed on seeking reunification through a phased programme in which free elections would come at the end and not at the beginning. The experience of recent years has made it abundantly clear that it has become quite futile to go on proposing free elections as a first step. To unite the two parts of Germany, with their differing political and economic systems, including their currency and trade arrangements, is bound to be a formidable and complicated task, and even with the goodwill and encouragement of the Four Powers, the Germans could not achieve it except through stage to stage advances over a long period. But if one obstacle is to be removed, another is to remain. I havesaid repeatedly, and I say it again to-day, that I do not believe that Soviet Russia will ever agree that a reunited Germany shall have the right to be a member of N.A.T.O. This may be largely an academic point at the moment, because there is a long way to go before the two German States can be integrated.
In the meantime, however, West German rearmament under N.A.T.O. is rekindling among Germany's neighbours the old fears of German military power, and these fears will be intensified when West German military contingents, now being trained in the use of nuclear weapons, are equipped with those

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weapons. The Western Allies are, we understand, prepared to discuss measures for European security, such as the inspection and control of armed forces on either side of the dividing line between East and West. That would provide a first step, and an important first step, in the right direction, but it falls far short of what we on these Benches have urged—namely, measures of controlled and inspected disarmament covering a zone in central Europe comprising the two German States, Poland and Czechoslovakia. It also excludes a nuclear-free area.
So long as each side continues to believe that the other has aggressive intentions, which both deny, the mutual confidence that is necessary to bring about an easing of tensions and the development of co-operation for European peace will be lacking and the status quo will steadily harden, with the longterm consequences that German reunification will not be achieved, nor will the liberation and freedom of the captive nations be attained. That is a most discouraging prospect.
A second obstacle that impedes progress towards German reunification is the fear among Germany's neighbours of future German irredentism. General de Gaulle has been alone among the Western leaders in declaring that
"the reunification of the two sections into a single Germany, which would be entirely free, seems to be the normal destiny of the German people, provided they do not call into question her present frontiers on the West, East, North and South."
Federal Germany could maze a definite contribution to the easing of tensions if her Government were to announce that they would be prepared to give such an undertaking in a German Peace Treaty. To remove doubts about the Oder-Neisse frontier would have a profound effect in Poland. To remove doubts about the Sudetenland would set at ease fears and suspicions in Czechoslovakia, whose people no doubt haveread the report which I saw a few days ago that an organisation has been set up in West Germany renewing the Hitler claim to the Sudetenland. The more neighbouring countries are conditioned by the fear ofGerman irredentism at some future time, the less likely are they to respond favourably to proposals for German reunification.
Of course, there might have to be frontier rectifications by an International Commission; but that is no reason for leaving the permanency of Germany's present frontiers in doubt. I hope Her Majesty'sGovernment will not hesitate to indicate its support of General de Gaulle's statement. Soviet Russia, for her part, too, has advanced frustrating and unacceptable demands about German reunion. But if bothsides continue to stand pat broadly on their old positions and are not prepared to make reciprocal concessions, it is extremely unlikelythat any basis of agreement will be found on this issue at the Geneva Conference; and any hope of progress will have to be pinned on the Summit Conference.
My Lords, the problem of West Berlin has a special urgency of itsown. The West cannot prevent Mr. Khrushchev from following the course he indicated on November 17; but there is no reason why the West should be pushed into complying with Mr. Khrushchev's wishes. We canstand firm both for our own rights and for the rights of the people of West Berlin. That is just what the Western Allies intend to do—they are determined to maintain the freedom of the people of West Berlin and the rights and obligations there of the Allied Powers.On this, as the Government are fully aware, there is complete unanimity both in Parliament and in the country. It is the right and sensible course that we should be prepared, as the Foreign Secretary has stated, to negotiate a new agreement that would implement the right to free access and clear up present misunderstandings. Such an agreement would not interfere with or supplant but would derive from and maintain the rights and responsibilities which the war-time Allies hold from the unconditional surrender of Hitler Germany.
If Soviet Russia does in fact hand over her rights to be exercised by East Germany, there is no reason why the Western Allies should not deal with the East Germans as the agents of the Soviet Government. And, despite French reluctance, there should be no hesitation in discussing to what extent and in what manner the United Nations can play a helpful rôle in the new situation. Mr. Hammarskjoeld has not ruled this out, though he has made it clear that it would have to be a limited rôle. But if there is

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agreement in principle—and the Russians have not excluded such a development — there should be no difficulty in arranging the sort of United Nations services that can properly be rendered. The Secretary-General also suggested that the Summit Conference should be held within the framework of the United Nations. That is a matter to be decided by the Geneva meeting of Foreign Ministers. I hope,however, that the Foreign Minister is already in consultation with his opposite numbers on this suggestion, and that he will strongly press acceptance of it.
There is one further suggestion I would make for consideration bythe Western Allies. The twenty-two West Berlin representatives in the Federal Parliament attend only in a consultative capacity. No suchrestriction applies to East Berlin representatives in the East German Parliament. This discriminatory restriction, which has operated now for nearly ten years, should be reviewed and removed. I can see novalid reason why the Parliamentary links between West Berlin and Federal Germany should be in any way inferior to those between East Berlin and East Germany. This is not a Four-Power matter: it is a matter for which the three Western Allies were responsible. They can rectify it, and I hope that they will do so.
In ending this part of my speech I would strongly urge upon Her Majesty's Government the importance of not allowing the results of the Geneva Meeting to decide whether there is to be a Summit Meeting. The right honourable gentlemen the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary said on their return from Moscow, that they were convinced that "Mr. Khrushchev genuinely wants to negotiate." But Mr. Gromyko is not Mr. Khrushchev. He does not decide; he works to instructions. The vital thing is to meet the Soviet Prime Minister. He is the man who decides. The West should go to the Summit Meeting genuinely prepared to negotiate and ready to get to grips with Mr. Khrushchev. They should put to the test there whether Mr. Khrushchev still "genuinely wants to negotiate."
My Lords, if Europe is still at a deadlock, so is the Middle East. Discord, strife and threats remain the staple fare. Arab union seems hardly possible in any workable form. Nasser and Kassim are dangerously at loggerheads, while Russia,
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from a distance, plays her intrigues through the Iraqi Communists. Soviet Russia has reason to be satisfied with the way things have gone, except in Iran, against whom a campaign of threats and warnings is being conducted. Information from Iraq indicates that the Iraqi Communists are playing the typical crafty game of building up a variety of "fronts" under their direction, ready for manipulation when conditions are favourable. Their activities follow the familiar pattern, including a demand for seats in the Cabinet. So far they have not been able to achieve this, but if they do we may be sure that theywill try to repeat what happened in Czechoslovakia and soon take full charge of the Government.
Kassim is said to be struggling hard to keep Iraq independent, despite being faced with inter-Arab rivalry and subversion, and despite increased Russian efforts at political, military and economic penetration. Some informed observers believe that Kassim is pursuing a neutralist course between East and West, holding out against both theUnited Arab Republic and Communist domination. It is considered that in these circumstances the pressure exerted by Nasser against Kassim, through a relentless propaganda war and increasing subversive activities inside Iraq and along the Syrian-Iraqi frontier, plays into the hands of the Communists in Iraq by enabling them to assume the rôle of true Iraqi and anti-Nasser nationalists and loyal followers of Kassim.
There are urgings from some quarters that this country should compose its quarrel with Nasser, establish friendly relations with him and adopt a more understanding attitude towards his aims. No doubt Nasser would welcome such a step, but has the danger he presents to the Middle East been changed by the latest anti-Communist position adopted by him? Russia gained a foothold in the Middle East, and the Communist threat in that region has been on the increase since 1955, when Nasser started to conclude agreements with the Soviet countriesfor deliveries of arms, and for military and economic aid. It is, I believe, true that the United Arab Republic Army to-day is totally dependent on Russian supplies and assistance. A large number of its officers are being trained in Russia, and increased numbers of Sovietexperts continue to arrive in Egypt.

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Moreover, I understand that the anti-West propaganda of Cairo Radio, beamed to the Persian Gulf and to East and North Africa, is as vicious as ever.
The question we have to ask ourselves, my Lords, is: would Nasser be a trustworthy friend? Will he respect the independence of Arab States that do not want to be swallowed up in his Arab Empire project? Will he adopt a policy of peaceful co-existence towards Jordan, the Lebanon, Saudi-Arabia, Kuwait, the Sudan, and others? Or would hetreat them as he is treating Iraq? With regard to Iraq the question is not one of support for Kassim but of support for Iraq's independence. One of the factors increasing the chance of this independence is the Western market for Iraqi oil, upon which Iraq depends more than does the West.
There are, it seems to me, two principles which should govern anyendeavour to bring greater stability in the Middle East. The first is the maintenance of the territorial integrity and the political independence of the existing countries in that area. There should be noforcible or manipulated changes. The second is that emphasis should be placed on constructive measures of development and of raising living standards, and on the need for regional co-operation as against concepts of "political unity" under an internal or external domination. I would make one other point. So long as the prevailing conditions of insecurity continue in this area, Israel—which is theone stable democratic country—should be enabled to assure herself that, should events bring about a renewed attempt to kindle an Arab-Israel conflict as a means in the struggle for power in the Middle East, she will not be denied the economic and military strength to deter any aggression. It has to be remembered that Nasser insiststhat a state of war still exists between the United Arab Republic and Israel.
I believe that all parts of the House will be united in condemning Communist China's cruel behaviour in Tibet. It is not dissimilar to that practised by Soviet Russia in Hungary in 1956. It would be nonsense to suggest that the repeated protests of the United Nations, though ignored at the time, have had no effect. If they had had no effect we should not be talking about a Summit Conference
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within a few months. I do not think it can be doubted that world public opinion helped to bring about different Russian methods during the past two years. Nor will Communist China be immune from the effects of world public opinion, especially Asian public opinion. it is encouraging to find that so many voices in Asia have been raised in protest. China was both surprised and incensed at the dignified reception accorded to the Dalai Lama and at the spontaneous reactions of the Indian Parliament. This is shown by the abuse and accusations poured out on India and her leaders by the National People's Congress at Peking, and by the Chinese Press and radio.
In a forthright statement in the Indian Parliament a week ago theIndian Prime Minister rebutted every Chinese charge. He declared that the Dalai Lama is not under any sort of duress; and the Panchen Lama was invited to come and see for himself. He rejected the even stranger allegation about so-called Indian expansionists and made it clear that India had no political or ulterior ambitions in Tibet. He might have added, but refrained from doing so, that he had already called the Peking Government's attention to their official maps whichshowed the Border States and Protectorates of India as part of the Chinese Republic; and he could have reminded the Chinese Communist leaders that territorial expansion by map was Hitler's technique.
Mr. Nehru also said that the Khamba revolt gradually spread and made a powerful impression on the minds of large numbers of the Tibetan people. Fears about their future gripped them, and a nationalist surge swayed their feelings. And finally, he said that the Chinese Communists were using the language of the cold war regardless of truth and propriety. The attempt to force Communism on the Tibetans by armed repression has brought tragedy to Tibet, and if the Chinese leaders imagined they could intimidate Mr. Nehru and the Parliament of India into silence in the name of the Bandung five guiding principles, they have been disillusioned.
My Lords, whether Asian indignation and protest that a small defenceless Asian people should have been so brutally treated by a greatAsian Power will lead China to change her course from violence

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and coercion to one of restoring the right of autonomy and non-interference with her internal life, which was guaranteed in the Treaty of 1951, has yet to be seen. I cannot refrain from expressing regret that China is relieved of the obligation to attend the United Nations, where she would undoubtedly have come face to face with powerful criticism from other nations and been brought up against the censureof the Assembly. This is another example of the folly of keeping Communist China outside the comity of nations.
There is another practical point. Mr. Nehru has said that some thousands of Tibetans have been given refuge in India. The numbers areincreasing. It would indeed have been a tragedy if India's frontiershad been closed against those seeking asylum. But, my Lords, is it right that India, because she is a neighbouring country, should be left to bear the whole cost of maintaining and caring for these thousands of unfortunate refugees? We well remember the tragic events thatled to the flood of Hungarian refugees into Austria, and the way in which many countries, including our own, rallied to assist Austria in her relief efforts. I hope that Her Majesty's Governrnent are already inquiring of Mr. Nehru whether he would welcome relief assistance from outside, to be channelled through the appropriate United Nations relief organisation. If such assistance would be welcomed, I trust that Her Majesty's Government will act speedily to make a contribution in the name of the British people.
My last point, my Lords, is a matter which concerns this country and many of our West European friends. In our last international debate there was some discussion of the deadlock in the negotiations for a Free Trade Area. The deadlock continues. The failure of the negotiations is still exciting comments and suggestions all over WesternEurope and, to some extent, in the Commonwealth as well. Some of thefears which are being expressed about the consequences of the failure may be exaggerated; but in general most opinion remains firm thatsome such arrangement as the Free Trade Area will eventually be necessary. The most recent indication of this opinion is a resolution passed by the Consultative Assembly of the Council of Europe on
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April 27 calling upon its members' Governments to make a "declaration of intent" to form an economic association guaranteeing free trade in Europe.
The Common Market countries—that is, the six who signed—seem to have a genuine fear that the real object of the advocates of the Free Trade Area is to undermine, and eventually destroy, the political gains in the Common Market treaty. None of us believes that to be true. What is true is that the Economic Community is at present still a very tender plant. This is shown by the recent abortive sharp debate over the surplus of coal in the Coal and Steel Community, which is now an element in the Common Market rather than a separate entity. In a speech at the European Assembly on the resolutionto which I have referred, Mr. Maudling warned European Parliamentarians that if the present deadlock in the Free Trade Area negotiationscontinued, the eleven non-Common Market countries would have to seekother means to expand their trade. The need for some such action in those circumstances is obvious. But was there also a threat implied in the warning, that if we cannot have the Free Trade Area we shall have to join together with the other ten to fight Ithe Common Market? If that is what was meant, it is unsatisfactory, both as a method of negotiation and as a method of operation, since it would ensure the very split that we all wish to see avoided.
My Lords, I suggest that the only approach to the problem is to press on patiently with negotiations, seeking to overcome the fears of the Common Market countries as their confidence grows, and yet notallowing sufficient time for the Community to develop to such a pitch that it ceases to care about a Free Trade Area. There should be some point of time in the near future when the opportunity will be ripe. Meanwhile, I suggest that arrangements to protect our trade should be regarded as temporary, and that agreements should be made on the basis that they may be set aside when it becomes possible to establish a larger association in Europe. We need to keep constantly in our minds the fact that trade and tariff policy disagreements can easily produce political strains and differences; and these are results which all

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members and non-members of the Community should work to avoid. I begto move for Papers.
House adjourned during pleasure, and resumed by the Lord Chancellor.
3.22 p.m.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, began by saying that he did not think that this was a very good time for a foreign affairs debate. But the noble Lord has had as much experience as I have, and he knows that there never has been a good time for a Parliamentary debate on foreign affairs—and there never will be. But the noble Lord has put down a Motion in wide terms; and I think that the House will agree that this foreign affairs debate will be most valuable if it departs from the accepted pattern of foreign affairs debates, in that the main value will come from the contribution which your Lordships make, in giving to the Foreign Secretary pointswhich may be valuable to him when he goes to the Conference shortly with the Americans and the French and the Russians; beginning with a Foreign Ministers' meeting and, as we hope, ending up with what isknown as a Summit Conference.
My Lords, such meetings, either at the Foreign Secretary level orat the level of Prime Ministers, can lead only to renewed frustration unless all the participants at such a meeting are willing to enterit with a genuine desire to negotiate. We have endured an arms race,the cost of which has been astronomic, and we have been through manyyears of cold war, which has been relentless and has led to tension,distrust and instability. It may be that we shall still have to endure these things, but if there is a desire on the part of the Russian Government to interpret "co-existence" in a more human, a more tolerant, and a more constructive way, then certainly there is an obligation on those who believe in international co-operation, as we do in the Atlantic Alliance, and as we do among the Commonwealth of Nations, to explore every road which might lead to better relations between East and West.
I therefore immediately give to the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, the assurance
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that, so far as the United Kingdom Government are concerned—and I am sure this is also true of our Allies—we go into these negotiations determined to make them real. We believe that the meetings will be most fruitful if they are held in private, and if the Foreign Ministers resist the temptation to issue more than the most general communiqué about their agreement. Therefore, the House will, I am sure, understand if I do not to-day attempt to add anything of substance to what the Foreign Ministers themselves have to say.
My Lords, it is true, as the noble Lord reminded us, that this series of meetings (as we hope it will be) which is about to begin stemmed from an ultimatum, or what seemed to be an ultimatum, over the future of Berlin which was delivered by Mr. Khrushchev in November. But since those shock tactics there have been a number of visits to Russia—some official, some private, some perhaps not so private—and there is about to be (and the Russians desire this) a trade mission from this country to see whether we can extend trade between our two countries. These visits and contacts, especially the visit of the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, have suggested that Russia may be willing to modify her original attitude to the question of Berlin and to consider, in conference, the future of Germany and the security of Europe. We in this country believe that, without sacrificing any of our essential freedoms or principles, and without impairing the effective structure of the N.A.T.O. Alliance, and without exposing Russia to any of the fears which she may have far her own security, at this time of day there should be opportunities for constructive agreements which would react to the advantage both of the East and of the West.
Agreement will not be easy to fashion. It is clear, as the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, himself pointed out, that political and military considerations are inextricably interwoven and intertwined. For instance, any schemes which have been canvassed for the limitation of armaments, or for the limitation of forces in Germany, must inevitably be influenced by the progress which can be foreseen by the negotiators towards the reunification of the country itself.

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The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, naturally gave a great deal of his attention to the future of Berlin; and, if I may say so, I found his approach almost identical with that which we on this side of the House hold. We are all convinced that there is no future for Berlin as a "free city"; that it would simply be mopped up into the Communist empire; and that that would be a loss to the free world of 2½ million free people and an inroad into European security which could be fatal. We are convinced, too, that, whether or not the Russians decide to leave the city, our right to be there, and the right of our Allies to be there, is unchallengeable; and that with the juridical right to be in Berlin there must go the right of access.
So far as the problems of access are concerned, we shall not go into the conference in an inflexible mood. There is much to be said, if the Russians insist on their withdrawal, for devising a new agreement; or—and I listened very carefully to the words which the noble Lord himself used in this matter; I paraphrase them, but I think I have the sense of them—of deriving from the old arrangements, on which our rights and our presence rest, a new agreement which would be up to date and clear for all to see and for all to understand. There would, we believe, be a great deal of value in that if it could be achieved.
My Lords, there is one other aspect of the Berlin situation which I should like to mention. If we are to achieve greater international harmony, and if over the years ahead we are to pursue more actively the prizes which come, or could come, with controlled disarmament, then, whenever opportunity affords, the possibility should be discussed of a United Nations contribution. Obviously, in the context of Berlin and Germany it is inevitable that negotiations must be conducted by the Powers immediately concerned and agreements must be concluded by those Powers. But if we look further, if we wish to see more co-operative living, and if, above all, we want to see an advance towards collective security, then I have no doubt that when agreements are reached they will be more solid and lasting if they contain arrangements by which the United Nations can play an appropriate part.
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Closely associated with Berlin and the future of Germany is the possibility of action to reduce the dangers of a military clash between the countries of the Warsaw Pact and the N.A.T.O. Alliance. Although the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, did not devote much of his speech to this to-day, nevertheless the thoughts were there. When we are talking of these matters, I feel that it is very necessary to be precise in definition, because the careless and inaccurate use of wordsmay well lead to misunderstanding among Allies and mislead the parties in negotiations about the intentions of the West.
There are two main ideas which have been canvassed and which hold the field, but between which it is vital to distinguish. The first is the concept of disengagement. If words mean anything, disengagement must imply withdrawal of forces, and surely it must mean also that there will be a no-man's-land between East and West, an area in which there would be no forces either of the Warsaw Pact or of the N.A.T.O. Alliance. From what I have heard them say in previous debates,I do not believe that either the noble Viscount, Lord Alexander of Hillsborough, or the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, is any more attracted by the idea of a vacuum between forces that have withdrawn than are my colleagues and I. N.A.T.O. has little hinterland available for depth in defence; the Warsaw Pact countries have all they need or all they could possibly use. There is a real danger that disengagement, in the accurate sense of the word, would offend against one of the principles on which think we shall all agree: that the security provided by N.A.T.O. must not be impaired.
If that is one idea which is put forward, there is an alternativewhich may hold promise of better results—that is, the limitation and inspection of arms and of forces in areas to be agreed. Thatconcept is very different from the concept of disengagement, as I understand it. In this concept, the balance of strength is retained, but the scale is less and the burden can be reduced. There are those who hold the view that in these days of inter-continental missiles, to limit ground forces and arms is of no real significance. That is arguable in logic, but I am by no means sure that it is right; because

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it seems to me that if we could be successful in finding an agreed area in which limitation and inspection proved possible and satisfactory, then we might gain confidence; which would lead us further on the road to general and controlled disarmament. Therefore we feel that there is ground to be explored here, and it might well be of great advantage to both East and West to find a practical arrangement for experiments in limitation of arms and forces and in inspection.
I do not think I have much to say to-day on the question of the reunification of Germany. I believe that we all feel that it must come; that when it comes it must come in freedom, and that this implies that at some stage there must be free elections to decide the willof the German people. The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, asked a question about the Oder-Neisse line and said that there are certain peoplein Germany who are urging the recovery of the territory which Germany lost in the war. No doubt that is so. But it is explicitly laid down in the final Protocol of the Potsdam Convention of 1945 that the territories east of the Oder-Neisse line should be under Polish administration and that their ultimate fate should be decided in a Peace Treaty. The German attitude is the same as that of the Western Powers, and they have subscribed, in paragraph 1 of Article 7 of the Bonn Convention on the relations between the three Powers and the Federal Republic, to the statement that the final determination of the boundaries of Germany must await a peace settlement. The Federal Government have further made statements, in 1956 and in 1957, saying unequivocally that the frontier question can be solved only by way of negotiation and without any threat of the use of force. This remains their position. Although, as the noble Lord says, there are people who wish to recover the territories which Germany lost in war, it is the attitude of the Federal Government themselves which matters.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, may I be allowed to interrupt the noble Earl? I am grateful to him for giving this information. Of course, I was aware of that. The point that I was trying to make is that these statements suggest that it may be possible to change the frontiers at the Peace Treaty. I think that that
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would be changing the basis upon which the frontiers were laid down at the end of the war. I can express only a personal view about this matter, but the understanding I have was that the finalisation of the frontiers, subject to rectifications, was a matter for a Peace Treaty. It is the refusal to confirm or declare that position which is creating so much doubt, suspicion and fear in the other countries concerned.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for making that clear. I would ask my noble friend Lord Lansdowne to make any elaboration required when he winds up, but I thought that I should repeat the informacation I have given to the noble Lord and the House. I hope that I have said enough on the future of Berlin, and on the possibility of areas of limitation and inspection on the Continent of Europe, to convince your Lordships that we do not intend to enter these talks in a negative way. On past form, if it cameto a contest between the Russians and ourselves as to who would say " No " more often, I have no doubt which country would be the winner; but I think the Prime Minister's initiative in recent months makesit quite clear that the accusation of a negative approach cannot lieto-day against Her Majesty's Government. If the techniques of obstruction are discarded in favour of a will to agree, then there will bea ready response from the West.
I should like to conclude in a few minutes, but not before I havesaid with what lively anticipation we and the people of this countrylook forward to the State visit, which begins to-morrow of the Shah of Iran. His Majesty's personal courage and his championship of the right of his people to lead a free life have excited our sincere admiration. We are glad to be associated with Iran, Pakistan and Turkeyin the Baghdad Pact, which is a defensive Alliance only and aimed only against aggression. Those who stand for the liberty of their peoples bring upon themselves from time to time tirades of abuse and threats. As the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, himself said, at this moment Iran is being subjected to a prolonged ordeal of this kind. But we in this country are sure that Iran will stand firm and staunch in the defence of the basic human rights, because by

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long tradition the Iranians are a people of free spirit.
The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, touched on the general question of instability in the Middle East, and it is because we have known over recent years that the instability of the Middle East is one of the main aims of Communist propaganda and Communist policy that we have been so anxious. I hope that the House will read the words which the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, spoke on the subject of the Middle East, about Iraq and Egypt. I listened to them with the greatest care and followed them with closest attention, and I should not wish to alter one word. They were said very wisely, and there is therefore no need for me to repeat them, but only to underline the impression which the noble Lord must have left; that is, that our policy towards the Middle East is in exact contrast to that of the Communists. We do not wish to take sides between one country and another or to meddle in Arab internal politics. All we wish to see is political stability and friendship growing between one Arab country and another.
It is partly for that reason that a growing section of the Baghdad Pact deals with one of the questions upon which the noble Lord touched—namely, the need for economic expansion and continued development in this area, in order that standards of living may be raised. I quarrel least of all with the principles which the noble Lord laid down. It should be our objective, in so far as we have influence in this area, that the territorial integrity of each country should be preserved; that there should be, in the words of the noble Lord, "no manipulated changes"; and that we should all seek, so far as we possibly can, for the second of his principles—namely, constructive economic development, either through the United Nations or through any other means.
Recently, Lord Monkton has had talks with General Kassim. They were practical and helpful, and showed a desire to maintain friendly relations with the Iraq Petroleum Company. That is well, because, as the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, said, the orderly production and marketing of oil is at the very foundation of the economic prosperity of the Arab countries of the Middle East. It is our policy and our wish in every possible way to assist General Kassim to
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achieve his declared aims, which, as we understand them, are economic expansion, true independence and neutrality in international relations.
If the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, is agreeable, my noble friend Lord Landsdowne will answer some of the other points he raised, about Tibet and the Free Trade Area, and he may also have something to say on the wider aspects of disarmament. I would only add that while Her Majesty's Government are, I hope, realistic, and while we are not misled into optimistic beliefs by the lull in European affairs—we do not delude ourselves that the aim of Communism to probe the weak spots in the Western defences will be abandoned—we do believe that there is a fruitful field opening up towards real co-existence, and we are going into these negotiations with a desire to find it and to fashion agreements, if that is at all possible, on which may rest more solid hopes than we have been able hitherto to enjoy of a more peaceful and fruitful life for the generations to come.
3.45 p.m.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, the noble Earl the Leader of the House, in beginning his speech, said that no time was right for a foreign affairs debate but some times are more right than others, and I think this is an occasion when it is useful to have discussion on the international situation. We are just a week off the beginning of the Foreign Ministers' discussions, and though I understand, as my noble friend Lord Henderson did, that it may be difficult for the Government to say much about the problems that will confront them, nevertheless it might be useful to the Government to hear what we in the House may have to say; and I was glad that we were encouraged by the noble Earl to put forward our views. I feel that the best service one can render in this debate is to speak freely and even provocatively.
I want to begin my speech by referring to the visit which the Prime Minister made to the Soviet Union a short time ago. I think there can be no two views as to the value of that visit. It is true that there is a debit side and a credit side to it. It is true that the visit was not altogether welcomed by our Allies, and that it has created a certain amount of

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suspicion and resentment; that our motives have been suspect; that we have been thought to have been guilty of appeasement, and that in some way the visit has been regarded as an assumption of leadership of the West to which we had no right. I hope that the recent talks in Paris may have gone a long way to resolving those difficulties, because I believe that none of them has any foundation. On the other hand, the visit has had the immense advantage of creating conditions where there can be a mutual understanding of each other's point of view. The time that was spent in lengthy discussions—some friendly and some otherwise—must have helped both parties to appreciate what was in the mind of the other.
While I would agree with the noble Earl that you cannot have fruitful discussions unless there is a desire to negotiate, I would alsosay that you cannot have useful discussions and negotiations unless there is a complete understanding of each other's point of view. In this respect, I sometimes wish that we were a nation of better chessplayers. The essence of chess is not only to understand what your opponent is after but to try to anticipate many moves ahead. Possibly the Russians have some advantage over us, inasmuch as they have in recent years produced some of the best chess players in the world; and to-day I think they have the champion chess player. While appreciating that the Government cannot answer many of the questions that we should like to put, nevertheless I will tell the noble Earl and the House some of the questions I should have liked to have answered as a result of the Prime Minister's visit and which I think it is necessary to have answered in order to enable all of us to decide upon our policy.
First, I should have liked to know how Car the Prime Minister's views and outlook have changed as a result of the visit. That is a perfectly general question. But I should like to ask specifically whether his views about Germany have changed in any way. For instance, does he believe that the Soviet Union really fear a united Germany? I suppose most people would say they do, but there is a school of thought which says they do not—that this is merely a pretext for enabling the Soviet Union to carry out their policy of gaining control over East Germany, tightening their control over
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the other Communist nations in the East, and so on.
Of course, one would have thought that they had every reason to fear a united Germany if Germany were united without any safeguards as to the situation of the Soviet Union. They have twice been invaded by Germany in the last thirty years, and they have suffered immense destruction of property and loss of life. To-day, Germany is rapidly regaining its strength, both economically and militarily. It is becoming a dominant partner in N.A.T.O., and it is even about to enjoy the blessings of nuclear weapons. One wonders whether the Soviet Union really fear this growing strength of Germany, or whether it is a pretext, as some people say.
Incidentally, I should have liked to ask another question which is: Are we so sure that we ourselves have nothing to fear from a strengthened Germany? I know, of course, that we have less to fear from a Germany which is included in N.A.T.O., and which is to some extent under its control, than if it were completely independent. It may well be that in many respects our views about Germany may not be very different from those of the Soviet Union. My own view is that unification of Germany must eventually come. But it can come only within the context of as complete safeguards against a Germany breaking out again, and for the peace of the world, as we can possibly get. Until we can be assured of these safeguards and of the value of them, we must go very slowly.
I should have liked to ask the Prime Minister whether he was satisfied that the Soviet Union genuinely and sincerely desired peace. Unless they do, then these discussions which are taking place and the Summit talks will be completely farcical. I suppose the Prime Minister must have come away feeling that there is as keen a desire for peace in the Soviet Union as there is on this side or, indeed, anywhere in the world, and that they are not primarily dominated by a desire to enforce their views on other nations. I am not suggesting for amoment that they have not that desire. Indeed, in my view it would be more difficult for them, in the event of strife, to achieve the conquest of the world with ideas than if they could be assured of a peaceful atmosphere for their activities. But that, I take

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it, we do not really mind. If it is to be a battle of ideas, then weset our ideas against the ideas of Communism, and I believe that eventually freedom is bound to win. But let it be a battle of ideas and nothing else.
We have to recognise that there are a number of anomalies about the position of Berlin. It is an island surrounded by Communist territory. The nearest Western point is a hundred miles from Berlin. Berlin itself is divided as between Communist and non-Communist territory, and it seems to me, at any rate, obvious that that is a situation which cannot be regarded as durable, and that if the Soviet Union had not delivered the ultimatum —I think it was originally an ultimatum—in any case something was bound to happen at some time in the near future, because it is a state of unstable equilibrium. I was glad to hear from the noble Earl, therefore, that we at any rate do not intend to adopt a rigid attitude in this matter. We are prepared to consider some departure from the status quo.
I would suggest that one departure we might consider is some form of recognition of what is undoubtedly a fact, and that is the existence of Eastern Germany. My noble friend referred to the fact that the United States are refusing to recognise the existence of Communist China. Eastern Germany is a much less conspicuous object that Communist China. It is there and, indeed, I understand that Western Germany is actually doing business with Eastern Germany, and that they have constant discussions and dealings. Therefore the recognition of the existence of Eastern Germany would not be a very difficult thing to accept. But it might make a good deal of difference and ease matters considerably in our negotiations.
There is one other aspect of the Germany problem to which I should like to refer, and that is the question of the renunciation by Germany of any intention of regaining her lost territories—the territories she has lost to Poland, Czechoslovakia, Russia and France. I think the unification of Germany would be much eased and speeded up if Germany were prepared unequivocally to renounce any intention of regaining those territories by force or in any other way, and to acknowledge that she regarded them as lost to her.
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I listened with care to what the noble Earl said about the Potsdam Treaty, and I am bound to say, having had occasion to refer to that Treaty from time to time, that his interpretation of the Treaty was not mine. I agree that the ultimate destination of the Oder-Neisse territories is stated to be dependent upon a peace treaty, but it seemed to me quite clear, from a reading of the Potsdam Treaty and our subsequent actions, that we were referring to rectification of the boundaries. We were not saying at all in that Treaty that the whole question of these territories was to be left in abeyance until a peace treaty; indeed, the noble Earl will remember that we ourselves agreed to a phased evacuation of German subjects from those territories. They were to be evacuated over a period of, I think, two years, and we laid down exactly how they were to be evacuated. We could not have agreed to that if we had assumed that the whole question would he thrown into the melting pot on some future occasion. I agree that the German Republic have stated that they would never go to war to regain those territories, but I think that that is not enough. If only they were prepared to say that they would never make that an issue, and that they have renounced those territories for all time, I think they would go a long way towards assisting in bringing about a unification of their territories.
I would ask whether the Prime Minister has arrived at any conclusion as to the sincerity of the Soviet Union on the question of disarmament, whether he felt they were anxious to continue the cold war, both nuclear and conventional. There is a school of thought which believes that the Soviet Union are anxious to maintain the cold war and that these conditions of unstable equilibrium are to their advantage. If that is so, if the Prime Minister came to that conclusion, then there could be no hope of any fruitful conversations arising out of the Summit talks, and I imagine that the Prime Minister must have come to the conclusion that the Soviet Union are anxious to bring the cold war to an end and that Summit talks may be of some value.
If we really believe that, then I would suggest—I quite understand that we cannot make proposals on our own account—that we do our best to ensure that any proposals we put forward to the Soviet Union are such as we can reasonably

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expect them to accept, and such as we ourselves would accept if they were put forward by the Soviet Union. I think that should be the test, and I am bound to say that, on both sides, proposals made in the past have not been of that character. Nobody would have been more surprised than the West if the Soviet Union had accepted some of the proposals made from the West; and, equally, nobody would have been more surprised than the Soviet Union if we had accepted some of their proposals. It has been to a very large extent a game of bluff and a game of jockeying for position. I hope that we shall now put forward proposals which can reasonably be expected to be accepted.
There is a lot of jockeying for position on the question of abolition of tests. I must say that I myself do not regard the abolition of tests as being of the most vital importance. I do not think it is the tests that are important; it is the weapons which we already possess, and which the Soviet Union and America possess; and even more the possibility that those weapons may be acquired by other European countries and thus gradually extended all over the world. That, to my mind, is the greatest danger of all. But, of course, abolition of the testing of these weapons would be a step, though only a step, in the direction of complete abolition. I hope that we on our side shall do everything we can to be as helpful as we can on the question of the banning of the nuclear weapons, and then, of course, on the further question of conventional weapons.
There has been a good deal of conversation about the type of test that we should inspect and the type of test we should not inspect. We find difficulties about testing of underground explosions or stratospheric explosions, but we are prepared to examine atmospheric explosions. I would suggest that we might take certain risks. It may be that we could not be sure of detecting 100 per cent. of the explosions that might take place. Nevertheless, I would endeavour to bring all forms of tests into the ambit of an agreement, and I imagine that the resources of science will, in due course, enable us to detect them all. But, as I say, I suggest that the abolition of tests is only a step, and a small step, in the direction of the complete banning of
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nuclear weapons from the face of the earth: that should be our real objective.
There is one other point that I should like to suggest which I think might ease matters. I hope that we shall not raise difficulties about representation either at the Foreign Ministers' Meetings or at the Summit Meetings. If the Soviet Union want to bring along Czechoslovakia or Poland, why not? After all, at all the conferences that we have had hitherto, they have been outnumbered, by three to one, and it is a handicap to be there all alone and having three different nations in agreement collaborating and joining together. I would suggest that, if the Soviet Union insist upon it, this is a point on which we might well give way. It seems to me somewhat unreasonable and arrogant to insist on a permanent majority at all meetings of the East and the West.
I should like also to emphasise what the noble Earl said about the position of the United Nations. It does seem to me that in all this activity, the United Nations have been left somewhat out in the cold. They have been bypassed. After all, we still believe in collective security, and I was glad that the noble Earl referred to collective security through the United Nations. I think it would be exceedingly valuable if, somehow, these discussions could be held under the auspices of the United Nations, rather than by individual negotiations. It is true that at present the United Nations are lacking in power to enforce decisions, but they have on many occasions played a very great part in helping to maintain peace in the world. The international climate may well be such now that the time is ripe for looking again at the Charter to see how far we can give "teeth" to the United Nations, so that they can play an even greater part in the maintenance of peace.
Finally, my Lords, I should like to congratulate the Prime Minister once more on the initiative that he has taken in visiting the Soviet Union. To most people of this country it has been a welcome step in an effort to break the deadlock. I know that in the forthcoming discussions we cannot act alone, and that we have to carry our Allies with us; but I hope that the mutual knowledge of the Soviet Union, of our own outlook of the belief in each other's sincerity—because without that Summit Conferences would

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be useless—will produce beneficial results in the difficult negotiations that lie before us.
3.11 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, as your Lordships know, for a good many years it has been our custom in this House to try to arrange debates on foreign affairs in the week following a similar debate in another place; for, of course, the senior Ministers who deal with foreign policy, the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary, are nowadays nearly always in the House of Commons, and it is important that our discussions here should take place with full knowledge of what they have said. I take it that that was the reason why the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, tabled his Motion for this particular week.
Like other noble Lords who interest themselves in international affairs, I read with great interest what was said in that debate. What struck me most about it —and I think possibly may have struck others as well—was the comparatively narrow area which it covered. That was perhaps natural, because, after all, a conference of Foreign Ministers is just about to take place and, as we all know, that conference is called to deal specially with the problems of Europe. But to my mind this narrowness gave that debate a certain air of unreality. I should therefore like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, most warmly upon widening the scope of our discussion here. There was, indeed, talk in another place of the forthcoming conference, of the future of Berlin, of the future of Germany as a whole and of the control of nuclear tests; and no one would seek to deny the importance or urgency of any of those targets. But I personally do not propose to speak to-day at any length on the European position, except on one particular aspect, to which I will turn in a few minutes.
Over Berlin itself, most of us, I imagine, in all Parties, would agree with the statement of the Foreign Secretary—a statement which was, in effect, reaffirmed by the Leader of the House in his speech this afternoon—that this country (and I quote the Foreign Secretary's words):
"cannot accept any plan that will lead to West Berlin being swallowed up in the Communist State, in the midst of which it stands."
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I am pretty certain that that would be contrary to the wishes of the vast majority of the people of Berlin itself. Moreover, the absorption of the traditional capital of Germany in the Communist zone would be only too likely to prove the first step in a phased policy aimed at the ultimate reunification of Germany within the Communist world, and a forcing back of the boundaries between East and West to the Western. frontiers of Germany. It would mean the end of Western Europe as we know it, and clearly we could not agree to that.
Judging by what was said by the Foreign Secretary, Her Majesty's Government have it apparently in mind, as an alternative, to bring the United Nations Organisation into the picture. I was grateful to the Leader of the House for saying a few words on this point. At first sight, I must confess that I cannot feel very enthusiastic about such an idea. For, as we all know, any action by any organ of the United Nations can be stultified at any time by the Operation of the Veto. To hand over control of Berlin to the United Nations would, therefore, I think, not be likely to give any one of us a feeling of complete security. But I fully realise that the words of the Foreign Secretary and of my noble friend the Leader of the House have been, inevitably and no doubt rightly, so carefully guarded that I may have misunderstood what the Government have in mind. In any case, I am sure that we shall all look forward to hearing more about this and other alternative proposals which emerge from the meeting of Foreign Ministers, as soon as the Foreign Secretary is in a position to give us information.
The second main topic with which the debate in another place was concerned was the question of nuclear tests. I do not propose to take up any time of the House on that topic this afternoon. It is an extremely technical one and really merits a debate of its own. I should, however, like to say a little more about the third main subject with which the debate dealt: namely, the wider problem of the future of Germany as a whole, and indeed of the whole of Central Europe. This occupied a good deal of the debate there, and it has, very naturally, already occupied up till now a considerable part of the speeches that we have heard this afternoon. In another place, the Opposition leaders urged one or other variation

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of what is called the disengagement plan—either the plan which was produced by M. Rapacki himself or variations of that—and the Conservative speakers, as I saw it, tended to be rather more sceptical of the result of such schemes and more apprehensive of the dangers that might flow from them. The Government themselves, if I understood my noble friend the Leader of the House right, have been playing with the idea of some modified plan on the same lines—a plan of a neutralised zone buttressed by effective provisions for international control and supervision of the demilitarised areas.
THE EARL OF HOME: My Lords, we have to be extremely careful when speaking of these things, and I hope I have not given the impression of meaning a neutralised zone. It is really for the limitation and inspection of forces and arms, retaining the balance of strength. It might be on a reduced scale. We feel that there is a very real distinction.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I believe there is. But to go back to the original Rapacki Plan and variations and modifications of that Plan, I do not suppose there is any one of us who has not been attracted, at some time or another, by some idea of that description. It seems such a simple notion to establish a cordon sanitaire across some specially dangerous area and so prevent the opposing forces from getting anywhere near each other; but in this case, as I am quite certain Her Majesty's Government themselves realise, the solution of our difficulties is not quite so easy as that.
First, as the noble Earl the Leader of the House has already said, there is a purely military aspect. Any strategic policy, if it is to be an effective one, must allow not only for forward areas but for adequate back areas as well. In this particular case, so far as Russian and the Communist bloc are concerned that aspect is completely covered. They have back areas of vast extent, stretching right back for thousands of miles from Poland to Vladivostok at the Eastern end of Asia. But there is no doubt that, by modern standards, the Western Powers are, even as it is, very poorly supplied with back areas. They have only a few hundred miles, and then comes the Atlantic Ocean. Voluntarily to reduce still further that already small space would appear to
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some of us to be a pretty hazardous experiment.
There is, moreover, yet another danger attaching to schemes of the Rapacki type which in the long run might well prove still more serious. The essence of such proposals, as I understand them, is the creation of an artificially neutralised and disarmed zone, so many miles wide, across the centre of Europe. I am here not talking of the proposal of Her Majesty's Government but of the original Rapacki proposals, which have had considerable support in this country. As I think the noble Earl the Leader of the House himself said, that would be, in effect, the creation of a vacuum; and, as we all know, nature abhors a vacuum. Is it credible, My Lords, that a power vacuum of that kind could permanently endure?
No doubt there are people who feel that it could. But I still have doubts, for this reason: is it not certain that sooner or later the people who live within that demilitarised zone—as it were in the no-man's-land between the lines—would come to show a steadily increasing spiritual attachment to one side or the other in this great spiritual conflict (because, after all, that is what the cold war really is) and that that spiritual affinity would soon become a political affinity? Were that to occur—and I believe it is almost bound to occur—it would not be very long before the cordon sanitaire ceased to be sanitaire at all and became, on the contrary, a seething cauldron of frustrations and irredentist emotions.
I believe that we of the West would do well at any rate to be cautious of anything that savours of a power vacuum, especially from the source from which this proposal comes. There are far too many power vacuums in the world already and nearly all of them, in my experience, seem to lead to a further shrinking of the area of free civilisation. As has been said already by the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, one exists to-day in the Middle East. We used to regard the Middle East as just such a cordon sanitaire between Russia and Africa; but it is rapidly becoming something very different, something dangerously like a springboard for the spread of Communist propaganda throughout the African continent.

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Indeed, what has happened in the Middle East during the last two or three years may be regarded as a classical example of Communist technique in the cold war. By skilfully plugging, morning, noon and night, by all the means of modern propaganda, the theme of the exploitation of the simple Middle Eastern peoples by the wicked Western Powers exclusively for the latter's benefit, they have already succeeded in that vital country, Iraq, in bringing about the downfall of a Government friendly to the free world, and the murder of all the main leaders of that Government and, indeed, most of our friends in that part of the world. In that way they have created a power vacuum which, it seems, Communism is now attempting strenuously to fill. Nationalism, in fact, has been used to further Communism. That process is already so far advanced in the Middle East that Iraq, Syria, and, I believe, Egypt, have ceased to be, strictly, part of the Western world at all.
And now we can see the same procedure beginning over the whole continent of Africa. The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, has already warned us of the activities of Colonel Nasser who, even if he is perhaps not quite so friendly with Russia as he used at one time to be, is still certainly, whether intentionally or no, playing the Communist game; and only this morning other noble Lords, like myself, will have read in the papers the announcement by Dr. Nkrumah and the Prime Minister of Ghana of the creation of a new Union of African States—I see the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, pricking up his ears—
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I am listening very intently all the time.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: —with particular insistence upon the ending of colonial exploitation, and a declaration—I quote from The Times newspaper—that the Union would not adhere to any world power bloc, but would take account of whatever outside forces might be in its favour. Whether the promoters of the Accra Conference—from which, I believe, this new development undoubtedly flows—or the leaders of this new movement, of which we have heard only this morning, are to be regarded as collaborators with Russia or merely dupes, I do not know. Probably they are the latter—more dupes than collaborators.
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But the presence of Russians at Accra during the Conference, and the whole pattern of events since that Conference, with the insistence on colonial exploitation, are so near to experiences we have had elsewhere that I submit that it is difficult not to see in it some evidence of a Communist hand.
The West, in fact, is being gradually edged out of Africa just as, earlier, steps have been taken to edge them out of the Middle East; and it may well be that if we look forward a period of fifteen or twenty years (although it is very difficult for any of us to look so far forward with any certainty at the present time) not only Western rule but Western influence, the influence of the free world, will have been entirely ejected from the African Continent. The power vacuum will have been created and Communism will have begun to fill it.
It is, indeed, my Lords—and it is no use burking it—in the long term a very sombre situation with which Western civilisation is to-day faced. The Communist Powers—Russia, China and their satellites—already control vast areas of the world, stretching from Pekin on the East to Berlin on the West. They are stretching their tentacles out in one direction over Tibet, about which I am sure we all warmly welcomed the forthright words of the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, and in another direction towards the vital oil-bearing areas of the Middle East. And if they controlled Africa, too (and, believe me, my Lords, that is not such a fantastic dream, in view of what has already happened since the war), they would have outflanked Western Europe from the South and might well feel that the cold war had almost been won. So deep and powerful, at any rate in my view, are the currents which are running against us at the present time.
I feel, therefore, that we must distrust any plans emanating from Communist sources which might have the effect of creating a power vacuum in a new area. either by some definite plan, such as the Rapacki Plan, or by other devices such as the Accra Conference; and I should personally feel (though I know others would not agree with me) that we should be right to stand pat on the present dividing line between East and West in Europe, if the only alternative were to carry concession to the point of danger: and I should feel that, even if it meant that the

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Summit talks, to which we are all looking forward, could not reach definite results.
Frankly, I am not very afraid of a hot war in Europe. For a hot war, on anything like a major scale, means a nuclear war, and a nuclear war is, I believe, the one thing that Russia really fears. One can well understand why. In old days a country like Russia, with vast territories, used to be at an enormous advantage compared with its smaller neighbours: for it was easy for a great Power of that description to overrun them completely before it was possible either for the allies of those small neighbours or for such protective organisations as the League of Nations to strike an effective retaliatory blow at the aggressor at any vital part. But with the discovery of the nuclear weapon, all nations, big and small, have come to have what I believe Sir Winston Churchill once well described as "equality of vulnerability". How-ever vast the difference between the periphery of a country and the centre, it is now possible to deliver a devastating retaliatory blow at the very heart of the aggressor in a few hours—one might almost say soon, with inter-continental rockets, within a few minutes—from the time the original aggression started.
Indeed, the wider the frontiers of a country the more the points from which that blow could come. Great territories, in fact, are no longer nowadays an increased protection. In some ways they increase the danger with which the nation is faced. This, of course, the Russian Government know as well as any of us here. It is therefore unlikely, in my view at any rate, that they will take the risks involved in an atomic war. In fact, though I realise that the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, will not agree with me, and possibly many other noble Lords in this House will not, I believe most profoundly that the nuclear weapon. horrible though it is—and I entirely agree that it is horrible is the greatest safeguard for peace at the present time. I hope, therefore, that it will not be abandoned, though I would go so far with him as to agree that there is a great deal to be said for limiting tests. It seems to me that the bomb is a powerful enough deterrent as it is.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, would the noble Marquess go so far as to say that, in spite of the fact that the possession of
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nuclear weapons is likely to spread throughout the world, he would still think it was a useful deterrent?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I would, for this reason. If you were to do away with atomic and nuclear weapons to-day, the world would be in exactly the same position as it was between the two wars; and the deterrents at the disposal of peace-loving nations at that time were not powerful enough to prevent another world war. That is my view.
But what is certain is that, even if a hot war is not likely, the cold war will go on, and go on, I believe, with increasing intensity. And it may well be that if the free nations take no adequate counter action to the offensive which is now being delivered against them, Western civilisation, which is based on free institutions, will ultimately be defeated without an armed conflict at all. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, if I understood him correctly, said that in a battle of ideas (I am afraid I am paraphrasing his words) he was sure freedom would ultimately win. That may be true in the very long run, but in the short term I wish I were as certain as he is.
That being so, I believe personally that the most urgent need of the West at the present time is to regain, to some extent at any rate, the initiative in the cold war which we have at present entirely lost. This seems to me the free world's weakest point. The propaganda of the Communist bloc is going on increasingly, day after day, week after week, under a centralised machine conducted by experts with all the modern methods of dissemination of such propaganda at their disposal; and yet, so far as I know, no comparable centralised machinery exists at all in the hands of Western Powers. I am not even certain that the various propaganda organs of the Western Governments are at present telling quite the same story or that they are preaching, in all respects, the same faith.
Yet, my Lords, the record of the West with regard to backward countries, where the danger is now the greatest, is after all a very fine one. If for the words "the exploitation" of these countries—that is the term the Communists use—we substitute the words "the development" of these countries, we get a quite

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different and a far truer picture. In every one of those countries which have been developed by the Colonial Powers, the standard of living of the indigenous people, their health, their education, are in a better state than they were before. There is more justice there; there is more freedom. This has already been recognised by many of their more thoughtful leaders. It remains for us and our Allies now to drum that lesson home, not only to the thoughtful leaders but to the ordinary men and women in those countries. I hope very much that consultations as to how this is to be done may be a main theme—perhaps the main theme—of future meetings of the Western Allies. I believe it is at least as important as the other subjects, with which they are usually concerned.
And now, my Lords, I have done. In conclusion, I would say only this. While I have thought it right to express some of the preoccupations which I have, and which I am sure are also in the minds of other noble Lords here this afternoon, I should like to wish my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary all success in the immediate negotiations on which he is embarking. He will, I am sure, carry with him the goodwill of us all; and if this meeting of Foreign Ministers, as we all hope, is followed by the Summit Conference—though I must frankly confess that, with the best will in the world, I cannot at present see any signs of a change of heart on the part of the Russian Government—it will, I am sure, be our sincere hope that these talks will at any rate help to reduce to some extent the causes of friction between the East and the West. We have already been told this afternoon by the noble Earl the Leader of the House that that will be the purpose and the spirit with which Her Majesty's Government will enter these two conferences. They can therefore, I am sure, be certain that, however much we may differ from each other on other issues and perhaps even on individual points of foreign policy, they will have the country as a whole firmly behind them in entering on their difficult task.
4.40 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, like the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, I too, was rather impressed by the extent to which the debate in another place had been confined to two topics only—namely, Germany and the control over atomic
38
weapons. The control over atomic weapons was limited to an even narrower subject—the control over tests. It had been my hope to extend the debate, at least by the remarks I was going to make, into a rather wider field. Indeed, I had at one stage hoped to follow the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, into outer space, but I feel that the remarks which have come from the Government and from the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, rather impel me to return once again to the topic of Germany and the reunification of Germany.
In the speech which we have just heard from the noble Marquess we have had a very clear exposition of a point of view. The Government have not been able to satisfy the noble Marquess who has just spoken, any more than, I think, they were able to satisfy certain speakers in another place, as to precisely what their views are in regard to this matter of the "limitation" (I think that was the word they used) "of armaments and control in Central Germany". I appreciate that the Government and the Foreign Secretary are about to enter into negotiations, and that it may be very desirable that at this stage they should not commit themselves and say too much about what they do mean. But Back Benchers, or ex-Front Benchers, can say what they think. I say straight away that I think that to press proposals for the reunification of Germany simply because they unfreeze a situation which is at least static, and which is not at the moment likely to lead to an outbreak of war, is to take a very dangerous step. I think the Government are right to attempt it, but the very reasons which make the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, unable to accept any proposals which would lead to West Berlin being swallowed up in Communist East Germany must make the Russians equally unwilling to see East Berlin swallowed up into the West.
There is no question that if German reunification is carried out without some form of control and some form of guarantee—whether it be a neutral zone, the Rapacki Plan, or whatever it may be—it is bound to be unacceptable to the Soviet Union. This seems to me to be one of the few indisputable facts in the situation. We know that in certain circumstances Russia is not prepared to see courses followed which will lead to the break-up of her East European

39
empire, of the Communist area. We had an example of this in Hungary. I do not propose to enter into a discussion on what happened in Hungary, but it was clear that, however wrong and however terrible the action of the Soviet Union in Hungary, she regarded the action that she took as absolutely imperative from the point of view of her national security. I am not defending this action, and no one could; but it is clear that any action by the West which would lead to a reunification of Germany under conditions in which that reunification was accompanied by the full access of German power to the West must be something which is unlikely, at least at the present moment, to be acceptable to the Soviet Union: and if that were likely to happen I think it would be equally likely that Russian troops would then move.
So, my Lords, I would only say this on this topic of Germany, which is one that we have been discussing now for years: that if no agreement is obtainable which gives some form of security, some form of guaranteed neutralisation, then I would agree with the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, that it would be better that Germany should remain ununited. I realise that from all stand-points of morality and justice this is a highly undesirable thing, but a world war would be even more undesirable, and I believe that a situation which led to a conflict over Germany would inevitably lead to the use of atomic weapons.
Just before I leave this point I would urge the Government to continue the initiative which vas envisaged in the speech of the Foreign Secretary in another place. That showed, I think, a considerable degree of flexibility—more so than has been shown in the past: a flexibility which can be attributed, I think, to the Prime Minister himself. But, at the same time, they must realise that any attempt to force through an agreement which is not satisfactory from Russia's point of view, is one which will do us in the West no good, either.
My Lords, I should like now to turn to the subject which was the other main issue for debate in the other place—the control of nuclear tests. I have been interested in the international control of nuclear weapons right back to 1945, when the first proposals that were sponsored by my noble friend Lord Attlee were con-
40
sidered—the Lilienthal proposals and the Baruch proposals. I believe that the Soviet Union made a mistake in not accepting the fairly liberal proposals that were put forward at that time. I think their pathological fear of the West was such that they simply could not read the words on the paper.
Since then, the situation has been completely frozen, and only in the last few weeks have we seen once more a ray of light in the proposal—and we have not had it in very clear form—which it appears the Prime Minister did put forward to Mr. Khrushchev when he was in Russia, and which it appears the Russians were inclined to accept, namely, that in the system of inspection there should be a limited number of "on spot" checks which, even though they would not give 100 per cent. certainty and would not detect every atomic explosion, would, none the less, give a reasonably satisfactory statistical prospect that enough would be detected to indicate whether or not the agreement with regard to the explosion of atomic weapons for test purposes was being broken. It is unfortunate that these proposals seem to have met with no response (and I should be very grateful if the noble Marquess, when he comes to reply, will deal with this point) from France or from America. Indeed, they seem, so far as one can judge, to have caused, if not public, at least considerable private hesitation.
None the less, it is a most encouraging development that for once we appear to be going into discussions with some advance area of agreement, and I see no reason why, if this agreement can be obtained in this way, it should not be extended to the whole field of tests, including under-water tests and stratospheric tests. I do not quite understand, from the rather complicated statement of the Foreign Secretary in another place, what the difficulties have been about extending such an agreement to stratospheric tests. It may be that they feel that the danger is less great; but I should have thought that, provided that the principle of inspection is once accepted, which is implied in the partial agreement in principle to which I have referred, there will be no difficulty in getting agreement ultimately over all kinds of tests. Unlike my noble friend Lord Silkin, I regard the limitation of tests as of the most profound importance. It will be the first

41
break in this terrible atomic block that bas existed for so many years.
Since I have referred to the stratosphere, I would now turn to the question of the international control of space. Although we have not spent a great deal of time in your Lordships' House discussing this aspect, the United Nations have spent a great deal of time discussing it. What impresses me most is the extra-ordinary patience, indeed, the physical strength, that our representatives have to show at the United Nations in listening day after day to the boring exchanges that go on between the representatives of the Soviet Union and of the United States of America. It is quite shattering, far worse than the extreme forms of Party politics which occasionally we have to put up with in this country.
It is a depressing fact that at the very end, when there was obvious agreement that outer space should not be a field for national exploitation, and there was no difference at all that it should be an area for international control and scientific work, negotiations broke down on the composition of the Committee that was to report on any proposals. I should like to ask the Government, who seem to be unfreezing a little, whether an independent initiative in this field might not have produced agreement. The West proposed a Committee which, as the Soviet reasonably pointed out, gave an overwhelming majority of numbers to the Western Alliances: twelve out of eighteen members were to be members of one or other of the defensive Western Alliances. The Soviet representative made a proposal which gave four to the Eastern bloc, four to the West and four to neutrals. That seems to be a not unreasonable proposal. It may be that there is some perfectly good reason why it is unacceptable, though I do not know what it is. I hope that the Government will tell us, because I feel that we are in danger of making precisely the same sort of mistake as the Russians made in 1945, in refusing to believe that any sort of agreement made from the other side can possibly be acceptable. Frankly, I should like an explanation of why the alternative compositions suggested for this Committee should be so totally unacceptable to the West.
I realise that it has been argued that the Assembly of the United Nations is a democratic body and can choose whom it likes, but surely it would have been
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possible to reach agreement on these proposals. For example, certain neutral countries suggested that the Soviet Union and the United States should get together and agree on the composition; yet we, along with the majority of the United Nations, particularly our Allies, turned it down. I think that an opportunity has been missed here. This Committee is now meeting. Its report will still have to go to the Assembly and is still subject to all the disadvantages and dangers such a report will have. Even then, I do not see what the report by itself can do beyond giving the Soviet Union yet another small propaganda victory.
There is one other matter that I hope to deal with, but I do not propose to deal with it at length, as there will be another opportunity of doing so. Again it is one which I hope will not be greatly contentious. I want to refer to the Antarctic, which is one area where there appears to be no cold war. During the recent International Geophysical Year, there has been a measure of international agreement and co-operation in the Antarctic, a clear demonstration that the ridiculous national claims we and other countries have attempted to make there can have no validity at all. I should like the Prime Minister, who goes in for good initiatives (and I only hope that he will follow some of them through), to take a lead, following the initiative of Mr. Nash in New Zealand, in proposing some form of international agreement in the Antarctic. I believe that the only reason why we are not moving in this matter is because certain of our own Commonwealth countries—Australia, and New Zealand rather less so—are reluctant to give up their little bit of Empire in the Antarctic.
There are no means of establishing effective claims in a territory where nobody lives. All sorts of attempts have been made. The British go in for building post offices; the Chileans build churches, and in the Arctic the Canadians put up police stations. I can remember exploring an island where the only inhabitants were policemen. All this is never going to make the Antarctic British or Chilean, Argentinian, Norwegian or French, or the territory of any of the other countries which have claimed it. Neither the Soviet Union nor the United States of America have yet attempted to make claims there. They are reserving

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their attitude. The United States occasionally fly around dropping flags of the United Nations. On the whole, I think that that is where the Antarctic should go.
My Lords, I think that it would be an excellent thing to get a solution of the Antarctic problem. It would be good practice for the moon, when that problem comes up. There are no national interests in the Antarctic that we cannot reasonably dispose of at the moment. There are no minerals there of any particular value. Admittedly, there is a lot of coal, but that is something we do not lack at the moment. The claims we have attempted to enforce at the International Court at The Hague will never be adjudicated on, since those who have overlapping claims with us are not going to submit themselves to the judgment of the Court, because at the moment their claims are precarious and as every year goes by will grow weaker. In this small matter I should like Britain, who has claimed three-quarters of the Antarctic, to give a lead and at least establish that modern war, which has never come to the Antarctic, remains away from it.
4.58 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: My Lords, there have been many occasions in your Lordships' House when I have held as an article of faith the truth of the dictum to which the noble Earl, Lord Home, referred, that there is no opportune moment for a foreign affairs debate. At the same time, I recognise that this is a moment of considerable delicacy from the point of view of forthcoming conferences and I shall not ply the Government with questions. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, if I may refer for a moment to his speech, put a series of questions rather in the air to the Prime Minister, and I gather from the angle which he gave to the questions that he was under no very serious expectation of getting a precise answer from the Prime Minister. No doubt, a platonic dialogue between the Prime Minister and the noble Lord would be extremely interesting and informative, but it is one which is perhaps unlikely to take place in the immediate future.
Nevertheless, the noble Lord said two things which I should like to take up. One of the questions which he put—and I can give only my own view in reply
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—was whether the Russians were really under a fear of the Germans or whether they merely used that as a pretext to hold on to East Prussia. I am absolutely convinced in my mind that that fear is a deep and genuine one, and that it has a great effect in dictating Russian policy. If I did not believe that, I should despair of anything coming of any of the forthcoming conferences: because unless the Russians are themselves actuated by some compulsion of fear which is going to lead them to make some concession and some advance towards the Western countries, then I think all these discussions are likely to get nowhere. But I think the noble Lord, in a sense, answered his own question by pointing out the occasions on which Russia has been invaded, and, indeed, devastated by invasions from European countries; and it would be a strange thing if they were not afraid of a repetition of that experience.
There is another thing which the noble Lord said and which, from some experience of conferences, I should like to take up. He drew a somewhat plaintive picture of the poor Russians sitting there all by themselves with nobody to hold their hands, whereas on the other side was ranged the full might of the Western Powers. I should not have any particular objection to Czechoslovakia and Poland sitting side by side with Russia at any Summit Conference, but I should not be convinced as to which was holding the other's hand: whether the Russians were deriving strength from the presence of the Czechs and the Poles, or whether the Poles and the Czechs were not being kept firmly in line by the Russian grip. But, whichever it may be, I think the noble Lord's proposition that the loneliness of the Russians was something for which we ought to demonstrate sympathy by allowing other countries to attend, was not a very convincing picture, because being alone in those circumstances is very much like a country at war being on interior lines, whereas the others are on exterior lines: you can conduct your own offensive in your own way, in your own time, as you wish, whereas the others have to concert all their plans and make a combined operation out of every move, which is a much more complex and delicate operation.
But I think it is true to say—and it is a sombre reflection, fifteen years after the

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end of the war in Europe—that the dominant factors in the international situation to-day are fear and suspicion; and which is cause and which is effect does not very much matter, because it is the combination of the two. I believe the fear and the suspicion exist on both sides of the table if you come to a conference. Unless we are going to perpetuate that circumstance by mere inactivity, it needs somebody to try to break clown the immobility of the situation. If the Prime Minister has made that attempt, is it really necessary that we should be quite so shy as a country in taking any credit that there may be for his having done so? It is true that a certain number of statesmen on the Continent of Europe appear to be suffering at the moment from stiff necks—possibly through feeling the draught—but, at the same time, I think a little exercise for the stiff necks at a conference would not be a bad way of dissipating the friction under which they are suffering.
I hope that there will come out of this first discussion by the Foreign Ministers a Summit Conference, and I believe that the Prime Minister's idea, which he has, I think, adumbrated, that this should be the first of a number of Summit Conferences, is in all essentials the right approach, because as long as you are in contact, then you have a valuable asset in hand. It is when you break off contact and get to arm's length, when there are no points of sympathy and understanding between you and no method of exchanging ideas or explaining misunderstandings, that the danger really arises. If one contact breaks down, provided you know that another suitable opportunity is coming along in the not too remote future, that may at least preserve the situation until that other moment comes. Therefore I believe the prospect of a series of conferences might well be a valuable contribution.
I would, however, say one thing about a conference of that kind. If there is going to be a Summit Conference I hope it will be possible to arrange that it shall take the form of a conference at which only a limited number of people attend and at which the minimum of publicity prevails. Otherwise if you are going to have arc lamps and flash bulbs and the whole panoply of a film first night you are not going to get any meeting of minds at all: people will merely make
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their speeches for the benefit of their own particular countries and the parties will be as far away at the end as they were at the beginning of the whole proceedings. May I give one example? I saw this very plainly at Geneva in 1954, in the Indo-China Conference, when we had a plenary session, attended by a large number of people, with all the accoutrements of a plenary session, but we got nowhere. The only progress we made—and we did make progress—was when we had a restricted session at which only the heads of the delegations and a few of their advisers were present. That is when we really got some sort of rapprochement with the people across the table and were able to talk with comparative freedom and lack of inhibition owing to the surrounding circumstances, Unless that can be done. I think there is little prospect of a Summit Conference obtaining a valuable result. But it can be done, and I hope that all those who participate in it will agree to do it.
The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, threw open the door far this debate very wide. I have not attempted to deal with the European situation in any detail, except to point out, in passing, that you cannot go on indefinitely with a policy of what may be called momentous inertia, and you have to do something to try to break that down. And that is what I hope is now in hand.
I now want to move further East than anybody has yet done in the course of this afternoon's debate. I talked about the Geneva Conference of 1954 for a moment, and I would only say, in passing—and it is perhaps a not unuseful reminder—that at that conference, now five years ago, the Russians and the Chinese undertook certain obligations and put their signatures to certain agreements; and that they have, so far as I know, rigorously carried out their obligations under all those agreements during the intervening years. That may be some assurance that, if it is possible to arrive at an arrangement in the course of the forthcoming conversations, the prospects of the other side (if I may use the expression) departing from it are not quite as black as some people are occasionally inclined to think.
My noble friend Lord Salisbury dealt to some extent with the Communist position as a threat to Africa. It seems to

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me that there are two great dangers in the Far East: one, the increase of population, and the other the threat of Communism. Your Lordships will remember that in 1955 there was a Conference at Bandung, the first Afro-Asian Conference in history. At the time it looked as if that Conference might have serious results for the West. It was perhaps the first major conference in history at which the possession of a white skin excluded. There is little doubt, I think, that as the conference developed, in spite of the efforts, principally of Sir John Kotalawala, the Prime Minister of Ceylon, and General Romulo, who headed the Philippine delegation, the dominating personality at the conference was Chou En-lai. I am not altogether surprised at that.
Harking back again to Geneva, I spent at that time some three months in almost daily contact with Mr. Chou En-lai, a man of great charm and great intelligence, and, I should imagine, complete ruthlessness if the need arose. But Bandung was a considerable personal triumph for him. The remarkable thing about the Bandung Conference is that it is now four years since it took place, and it has never had a successor. That looks as if the need for this coming together of the two peoples and the homogeneity of interests between the nations of the two continents, upon which so much stress was laid at that time, was perhaps not quite so vital an element as people at the moment were disposed to think.
The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, spoke of Tibet, and I agree absolutely with everything he said about the deplorable action of the Chinese People's Republic in thus bullying and stamping upon a small and defenceless nation like Tibet. I am inclined to regret that action all the more for one reason which may not appeal by any means to all your Lordships. I regret it because I think it has postponed for a considerable time any prospect of the admission to the United Nations of the Chinese People's Republic. It has always been my personal view that it was an absurdity that the United Nations seat for China should be held by a country—if one can call it a country—with 8 million inhabitants, to the exclusion of a country of 620 million inhabitants. It is true that the
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Chinese seat carries with it a permanent seat on the Security Council, and when the matter is raised people say, "Yes, but it means admitting another Communist Power to the Security Council." I think there are two answers to that.
The first is that the United Nations is not an anti-Communist organisation. It is supposed to be, to all intents and purposes, a world assembly of nations. The second answer is that whether you have one Veto or two on the Security Council does not seem to me to make the slightest difference. It is not as if the Russians were so reluctant to use their Veto, when it comes to a difference of opinion with the West, that they want something else to bolster them up. Therefore, for my part, I regret that there has been, as undoubtedly there must have been, a setback to the chances of Chinese admission. I say that because I think that this action of China in Tibet has come as a real shock to a number of what are pleased to call themselves neutralist countries in Asia who had thought and hoped better things of China than to find her behaving in a way which would disgrace the tradition of Imperialism. So it has been; and, as I say, it has come as a very great shock. But it has deferred any prospect of a possible stabilisation in the situation, the prospects of which might be increased by the admission of China to the United Nations.
I have cited what seemed to me to be the two great problems in Asia—population and Communism. They walk hand in hand, because if the growth of population is going to reach a point at which the countries of which these peoples are nationals are unable to cope with them or feed them, or cannot give them a reasonable standard of life, that is the most hopeful prospect for Communism that could possibly be offered. When one looks at the growth of population in Asia it is a really terrifying prospect. I think I have given your Lordships certain figures before, but perhaps I may repeat one that has always impressed me most. I was told that the increase in the population in South-East Asia alone—which is already one-sixth of the human race—between 1955 and 1970 would be equivalent to the total present population of the United States of 150 million people. People do not always realise that in Indonesia, a country which perhaps does not come frequently within our

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cognisance, there are 88 million people. Java is the most densely populated country in the entire world. So it goes on round the whole face of the world, until you get to this Communist bloc of China, with 620 million inhabitants, increasing at a rate of something like 12 million a year.
That is the problem, and the question is whether the countries themselves are in any condition to face and to solve that problem; and, if not, whether there is any help that we and any other more fortunately placed countries can give to them. I greatly hope that, out of the present series of discussions which are opening before us to-day, there may arise a situation, not as a method of appeasement, not as a method of unilateral sacrifice, but as a result of agreement between all those concerned, in which there may be such a reduction in the immense burden of the cost of armaments as may free resources with which we can help the less fortunate countries in other parts of the world.
5.18 p.m.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, this debate has ranged freely over world problems, including Antarctica and the realms of outer space. I hope your Lordships will excuse me if I am a little more confined in my remarks. I should like to speak briefly about one group of European nations which seem to me to get less than their fair share of our attention. These are the Russian satellite countries, with a long history of European culture and civilisation, which at present are behind the Iron Curtain and dominated by Russian military might. We have had many debates in this House and in another place, and we read constantly in the Press, about the struggles of colonial peoples for independence. We read far less, and we hear far less, of our European friends who have lost their independence and are repeatedly being reduced to the status of Russian colonies.
Only this morning, at a ceremony at St. James's Palace to mark the tenth anniversary of the signing of the Statute setting up the Council of Europe, the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor spoke most movingly and effectively of those principles of justice between individuals and justice between the individual and the State which are common to the Western world. Surely
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we cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that we have many European friends behind the Iron Curtain who cannot enjoy these rights. In some of these countries a régime of terror such as was familiar in Stalinist Russia is still in full operation. In Hungary, two years after the Hungarian revolution, the present régime, in spite of their promises, continue their policy of persecution. The Chief Public Prosecutor in the National Assembly recently said, if I may quote, that:
"the systematic application of our penal jurisdiction is the most important guarantee that in the full implementation of law enforcement class warfare should prevail…. We will crush vigorously our enemies."
I need not speak any more about Hungary; its story is too well known to you.
Less well known is the fact that this terror goes on also in Roumania, with its familiar pattern of the early knock on the door, the invitation to the police station, sudden disappearances of people for months and years, and all the familiar horrors. Prisons and forced labour camps are full, and the penalty of death is now almost arbitrarily imposed for a whole series of only vaguely defined crimes. Article 187 of the Penal Code, for example, prescribes the death penalty for acts
"which could cause the Roumanian State to become involved in a declaration of neutrality."
And Article 207 provides special penalties for threats, defamation or terrorism directed at
"members of special agencies and persons engaged in public activities."
From these extremes the picture differs throughout the rest of the countries behind the Iron Curtain, like Czechoslovakia, the model satellite, and Poland, where a certain amount of personal freedom exists under the Gomulka régime. But in all these countries there emerges a similar picture of political despotism, economic exploitation, ruthless censorship of intellectual activities and a bitter campaign against the Church and religion.
We have to be realistic and acknowledge that politically we are powerless to help these captive European nations. This fact was most clearly demonstrated, once and for all, at the time of the Hungarian uprising; and in fact our inability to intervene at that point has caused a

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wave of disillusion throughout Eastern Europe. Economically also there is very little that we can do. The economic policies of the various satellite countries are closely integrated with the Russian economy, and their mineral wealth and productive capacity are being exploited exclusively for Russian ends, to the neglect of the normal openings for their trade within Europe. But whilst we may be, for the moment, politically and economically powerless, I believe that there are two things that should be in our mind, two ways in which we can act. First, I believe that we should never give way on our principles of national self-determination and free elections for all countries. Those are our fundamental principles, and we should be ill-advised to part with them for the sake of a temporary bargain. To many people behind the Iron Curtain free elections are the symbol of liberation, not only in East Germany but throughout Central and Eastern Europe. There is some misgiving in those countries that the West, in its effort to formulate proposals acceptable to the Kremlin, may compromise on those very principles which are fundamental to European civilisation.
The second thing we can do is to keep open such links and lines of communication as we have with our fellow-Europeans in the satellite countries. The means are limited, but I think more could be made of them. One such means is broadcasting. In this field, I believe that the B.B.C. is doing a very well-worthwhile job—a job in many ways similar to the job it did in war time; and the fact that its broadcasts are so severely jammed merely proves how effective they are. I do not for a minute think that they should in any way contain inflammatory political material such as might encourage revolt in those countries, but they should continue to put before the countries behind the Iron Curtain the Western point of view on world problems and keep open the cultural links between the West and the East. This latter task is also being undertaken by radio courses run at the College of Europe, at Bruges. These courses are run by a Committee under the chairmanship of Don Salvador de Madariaga, and include talks especially for the intelligentsia and the young people on various aspects of European civilisation.
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Another initiative to which I should like to direct your Lordships' attention is the activity of the Writers' and Publishers' Committee for European Co-operation, which was formed in 1957 in Paris for the purpose of making available to individuals, universities and libraries behind the Iron Curtain books of cultural value published in Western Europe. In the first six months of its activity this Committee sent some 12,000 dollars worth of books behind the Iron Curtain, and it has continued with this excellent work.
Another means of keeping some form of contact is by means of university scholarships and exchanges. This activity has already been put into effect through various bilateral arrangements with Eastern European countries, and such exchanges do a great deal to further understanding. As from January 1 last, there has been in existence a European Cultural Fund, formed originally at the suggestion of the Council of Europe, but now independent of it, to which other countries in Europe, other than those who are members of the Council of Europe, have adhered. It already has on hand a number of important ventures, and at its recent meeting in Strasbourg the Consultative Assembly of the Council of Europe recommended to the Cultural Fund that, in addition to what it was doing, it should seek to assist such measures of East-West cultural contact as I have been describing. But the Fund has only £32,000 a year, which is not very much with which to undertake a very large task. Her Majesty's Government contributes £6,000, but more is required, and I would urge Her Majesty's Government to consider whether, in the future, when they are approached they could not make a more generous grant over and above their agreed minimum of £6,000. That matter was raised one day last week in another place on the Motion for the Adjournment, and I should very much like to reinforce what was said then and to ask the Government to make an increased contribution. Such a step would be tangible proof of this country's whole-hearted support of the concept of European unity, and would be an effective contribution towards its eventual attainment.
5.30 p.m.
EARL ATTLEE: My Lords, I do not intend to traverse the ground which has been covered by noble Lords on this side,

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and I shall not make a long speech, but I should like to join with others in wishing all success to the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary in the initiative that they are taking. Next week I am going to help to celebrate the ending of what might have been called one of the hottest points of the cold war, the Berlin blockade. At that time it would not have been much good for me to try to get into conversation with Mr. Stalin. I think it is profitable to-day for our Prime Minister to get into talks with Mr. Khrushchev.
Therefore I think that we need not really be quite so gloomy as was, I thought, the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury. He seemed to see nothing but defeat all the way, with the Soviet Union wonderfully successful, winning all the way. I think that their victories are mainly caused by the mistakes of the West. He is now reaping the bitter fruit of Suez. Up to that time I do not think that the Soviet Union were winning, and I do not think that Communism is winning to-day. If we look at the condition of opinion such as one can gather either in the satellite countries or in Russia itself, we shall find that they show a far less monolithic face than they did ten years ago.
I am not in the least inclined to the gloomy prospect of losing all Africa, losing all Asia, and everything going smash. I think it is much more likely that the time is fast approaching when there will be some trouble among the Communist countries themselves, particularly, as has been pointed out, in regard to the intense pressure of population in the East. At one time not long ago it was thought that Colonel Nasser was the white-haired boy of the Communists. Apparently that idea has gone overboard now, and the clash between nationalism and Communism has come about. It seems to me that if we had taken a different view of that situation we might never have had that trouble in the Near East. Somehow or other at that time we were extremely badly advised.
I was impressed by the speech of the noble Marquess, Lord Reading. I thought it most realistic. I think it is absolutely true to say that our greatest trouble is Russian fear of America and American fear of Russia. I think those fears are much too strong; that there is an inclination for the Communist always
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to see an American under the bed, and for the American always to see a Communist under the bed, whatever happens. I should be inclined to stress that one thing we want is to try to get some initiative from people who are not quite so deeply committed. Lately I have been in the Scandinavian countries. Certainly they are not suspect in America, and I do not know that they are suspect in Russia either. While I am all for a Summit Conference, I believe that sometimes a little movement in the foothills, among the smaller Powers, might be equally useful, because they always suffer when the big boys fight. Their interests are just as great as ours. Therefore, while we have a Summit Conference, I should like us to do all we can to encourage initiative amongst people like the Swiss or the Swedes, or perhaps the Asiatics, the Singhalese and others, Who are not so directly involved in the battle, because it is this mutual suspicion which seems to break everything down.
I was greatly impressed by the proposal of my noble friend, Lord Shackleton, about the Antarctic. I have put it forward myself. I think it would be a great thing if we could have talks in regard to neutralising the Antarctic. We might go further and neutralise the Arctic as well. Then at least we should have two areas of separation. I do not think I should feel seriously disturbed at the lack of power in the Antarctic. The noble Marquess seemed to think that it was a terrible thing if the rival doctrines were not lined up closely. When I was young, and his grandfather was Prime Minister, there used to be talk of "splendid isolation." We were always trying to make buffer States—a very favourite term in the late 'nineties and the beginning of this century—because we thought it was desirable to keep people apart. Now it is called the "power vacuum." I do not think I should mind a power vacuum in the Antarctic or the Arctic, or in a number of other places. I should hope that we were getting away from this perpetual conception of a struggle for power everywhere.
I am afraid that I was not impressed by the noble Marquess's suggestion that big countries were as vulnerable as small ones. It would take a lot more time to knock out all the Russian cities than it would take to put paid to this little Island. As a matter of fact, we are an

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intensely vulnerable country. Small countries are intensely vulnerable; one bomb knocks them out. There are chances for the rest of surviving. I agree with him in that I do not think the Russians want a great atomic war. I do not think they want any war. I believe they are perfectly confident that in building up their system they can win on the ideological field. I am equally sure that we can win on the ideological field, if we can survive. Therefore I welcome close contacts, whether at the summit, in the foothills or even on the level.
I think that in any realistic examination of our position to-day it will be found that though actually I believe the tensions are not quite so great, the possibilities of world destruction are infinitely greater than ten years ago. I have been to several countries where they are talking in terms of whether it would not be desirable for them to have atomic missiles. Every time that is done it increases the possibility of these missiles being in the hands of fools, or in the hands of a trigger-happy person. The suggestion that every nation ought to have an atomic bomb is akin to the suggestion that every woman of fashion ought to have a mink coat. Surely, we spend quite enough on armaments. I could not agree more with the noble Marquess, Lord Reading, in calling attention to the fact that one of the potential dangers in the world to-day is the enormous increase in population. Here are we, allowing that to go on and wasting our substance on obsolete or other weapons. I conclude by saying, let us hope that good may come out of these meetings. It would be the heartfelt wish of all of us, whatever our political views.
5.29 p.m.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE): My Lords, I think we can all agree that we have listened this afternoon to the most reflective, carefully-delivered speeches. I have no intention of making a formal set speech. I should like to follow the example that has been set by other noble Lords. At the outset I should like to say to the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, and indeed to the other noble Lords who followed him, how much I appreciate that they realise fully that it
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is clearly not possible for me to enter into many of the interesting discussions which they have set afoot this afternoon—much as I wish I could.
It would appear from everything that we have heard this afternon that there is general support for the approach of Her Majesty's Government to the problem of Berlin. My noble Leader has clearly restated our position this afternoon. This morning, as the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, mentioned, we have been commemorating the tenth anniversary of the formation of the Council of Europe—an organisation about which some of us sometimes think and about the significance and possibilities of which, I believe, we might do well to think more. There, in the Council of Europe, we have in fact the first recognition of the need for a Parliamentary element in international administration, the recognition by an existing community of the need to find some form of representation other than that provided by national Governments.
I do not want to introduce a controversial note, but despite the somewhat off-hand dismissal of the fact by the right honourable Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Aneurin Bevan) I do not think it was without significance that all eighteen members of the British delegation to the Consultative Assembly of the Council of Europe, irrespective of Party, supported a resolution which was passed with no contrary vote by the 15-nation Assembly, upholding the rights of the inhabitants of West Berlin to live in freedom and security and to have free communications with the West. The Soviet proposal for a free city was rejected. The resolution supported the reunification of Germany by means of free elections, accepting the principle that no proposal should be agreed which would involve a change to the disadvantage of the West in the balance of military security. It was further resolved that concessions on the part of the West should be matched by equivalent concessions on the part of the Soviet Union. I believe that that resolution reflects very faithfully the temper and attitude of mind of the European Parliamentarians to the problem of Berlin.
The attitude of Her Majesty's Government at this turning point in postwar history—for although perhaps one always believes that the time in which one lives is a turning point, I really believe

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we have reached a turning point—is calm and robust; and we go to the conference table fortified by the knowledge that a real understanding and trust has been firmly established between the Western Allies. We know, too, that there is a will to seek solutions by negotiation—and let us be quite clear about this. The negotiations upon which we are about to enter, in my opinion, can reach a satisfactory conclusion only provided that their objective is to achieve results which are to the common advantage of both sides and which respect the fundamental security requirements of each. There, in a sense, I may have echoed the observations that have been made by other noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon.
Perhaps it might be well if I remind your Lordships of a statement that was made in another place by my right honourable and learned friend the Foreign Secretary on December 4, 1958. He said that at Geneva in 1955 we had made it quite clear that while a reunited Germany must be free to decide her own foreign policy, if she should decide to continue to be associated with the West we should be prepared to give real guarantees to reassure the Soviet Union and the East European countries against the danger of attack from a united Germany. He also said that we had furthermore made it clear that if a reunited Germany should choose to join N.A.T.O. we should not take military advantage of the withdrawal of Soviet forces by moving the N.A.T.O. shield further Eastwards. Surely in that statement we have a very real recognition of the genuine possibility of the fear that Russia may have. That is clearly taken into account by that statement which was made in December of last year; and I am certain that Her Majesty's Government and the representatives of the Government to whom so many noble Lords have wished well this afternoon go into this Conference with this thought very clearly in their minds.
I listened, as other noble Lords probably did, to the debate in another place, and I could not help being deeply impressed by the simplicity of the language of my right honourable and learned friend. Perhaps it is not the British way to use grand words when difficult things are to be undertaken. He simply said that Her Majesty's Government were very conscious of their responsibilities
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and would do their best. I am quite certain that noble Lords in all quarters of the House wish every possible success to the endeavours of the Foreign Secretary. I have been gratified also, during the course of this debate, to hear the way in which noble Lords, particularly from the other side of the House, have congratulated the right honourable gentleman the Prime Minister on his initiative. Clearly, if people never meet they can never solve their problems, and I believe, as many other noble Lords in this House believe, that this initiative has been a very great contribution to the whole world.
The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, raised certain specific points with which I should like to deal. He alluded to the Free Trade Area, and I should like just to make a few short observations, if I may, to bring your Lordships as completely up to date as I can. Since the suspension of the Free Trade Area negotiations last November, we have been faced with two problems, the immediate one and the long-term one. The immediate problem was that of discrimination against the United Kingdom and other Members of O.E.E.C. resulting from the operation of the Treaty of Rome at the beginning of this year. As your Lordships know, this discrimination arose mainly in French markets, and I am glad to be able to say that, after consulting with other Members of O.E.E.C. who do not belong to the European Economic Community, we have now finally concluded an agreement with France on quotas for trade in 1959. This agreement does not fully remove discrimination, but it goes much of the way towards doing so, and I am sure that it will do much to create a better atmosphere.
The long-term problem, and the danger which all of us, I think, have all along foreseen, that economic division would lead to political division in free Europe, still remains; and it is still Her Majesty's Government's conviction that the only satisfactory solution to this problem is the setting up of a multilateral association of all O.E.E.C. countries. As the Community rejected our proposals we have been waiting with interest to see what alternative they would bring forward. In March. the Council of Ministers of the European Economic Community reaffirmed their determination to pursue efforts to create such an association and

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set up a Committee to examine the comments of the six Governments in a preliminary Report which the European Commission had made. The Council of Ministers met again at the end of last month, and further consultations are, apparently, to take place.
We naturally await with great interest the outcome of these consultations. Our own aim is still to establish a system of European co-operation which provides for an association of the E.E.C. with the Members of the O.E.E.C. and does so within the framework of our international obligations. We continue to examine all possible ways of achieving this objective and we have been having talks with the "non-Six" countries to see what can be done to facilitate this. But here I would hasten to add that these talks we have been having with the "non-Six" countries do not in any way constitute a threat. These are talks which I think the noble Lord, Lord Silkin, will feel flow quite naturally from the situation; and I hope that it will not go out from this House that these talks do, in fact, constitute any idea of a threat. They are a natural series of things that have followed from the present situation, and Her Majesty's Government's intention is still quite definite: to try to achieve, as I have said, a multilateral association embracing all the countries of the O.E.E.C.
The noble Lord, Lord Henderson, referred to the question of the status of Berlin. As I understand it, the whole basis of the Western position in Berlin is that by the Agreement on the Occupation of Germany reached in the European Advisory Commission in 1943, to which the Soviet Government were a party, Berlin was made the subject of special arrangements and was not incorporated within any Zone of Occupation. When the Federal Republic came into existence, its constitution had to be approved by the then Military Governors. In approving it. they made a specific reservation that the status of Berlin remained unchanged. Berlin is not a part of the Federal Republic, and could not be made so, as I understand it, without prejudicing its existing status. The Allied position in the city is based on the fact that it was never a part of any Zone of Occupation, but was to be under separate quadripartite administration.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, may I intervene? I am not sure—my recollection is getting a little hazy—but does the same constitutional position apply to East Berlin? Berlin, as a whole, was a quadripartite responsibility, and my recollection is that the East Berlin Members of Parliament are full members; the West Berlin members are merely consultative. How can it happen that East Berlin Members can have one position without interfering with the 1943 Agreement, whereas if the West Berlin Members had exactly the same position, that would be an infringement of the 1943 Agreement? I have some difficulty in following that at this stage.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I think the answer to that question is the same as the answer to the question: How can the Russians decide to walk out of East Berlin and give up their responsibilities there? In fact the whole of the city is in exactly the same position as the West. But unilaterally this arrangement has been made, which technically is incorrect. If we did the same thing—I think I need not insist any further.
I should like now, my Lords, to say a few words on the subject of Tibet, which was raised both by the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, and by other speakers this afternoon. I have already had occasion in this House to express the sympathy of Her Majesty's Government with the Tibetan people in their troubles. As has been made clear on more than one occasion. Her Majesty's Government have for long considered that Tibet should be regarded as autonomous, and I should like to take this opportunity of making it abundantly clear that we deplore anything that the Chinese Government may do to prevent the Tibetans from enjoying full autonomy; and in particular we greatly regret the use of force against them.
But, however much our sympathies may be with the Tibetan people, we must have regard to the realities of the siutation and consider whether any action on their behalf would be likely to be effective in helping them, or whether it might not perhaps produce the opposite result. In this connection I should like to quote from a speech made in Madras by Mr. Nehru on April 15. He said this:
"I cannot imagine any feasible, practical or happy solution to the Tibetan issue without autonomy for the Tibetan people."

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Her Majesty's Government most certainly share the hope that a satisfactory solution can be reached by peaceful means, which will serve the best interests of the Tibetan people.
Here perhaps I may interpolate a few remarks on the question of the refugees. Naturally, Her Majesty's Government fully understand and appreciate the attitude of mind that is inspired by the observations made by the noble Lord, Lord Henderson. So far as I know, the number of refugees is still not very great. The figure that I have is something between 6,000 and 7,000: it may be more. So far, the Government of India has not asked for help. So far, the Government of India appears to be managing to deal with this problem; and, until the Government of India takes some initiative, I do not feel that we can usefully discuss the problem. None the less, Her Majesty's Government, and I personally, appreciate wholeheartedly the reasons Lord Henderson mentioned this matter.
There was one point in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, which I should like to try to clarify a little, and that was on the question of the German frontiers. My noble Leader gave a reply to the noble Lord and said that perhaps I might enlarge upon it somewhat. As I see it, the position is this: the Government must be a Government of a reunited Germany, and until such a Government exists it cannot be committed in advance by any statement or declaration made now. I think that that really is the nub of the thing: and until there is a Government with which to negotiate, it is really not possible to carry out any negotiations. I therefore do not think there is any question of our being able to follow up the idea which the noble Lord put forward.
LORD HENDERSON: I fully appreciate the statement made by the noble Marquess, and I quite understand it. What I proceeded to ask was: would Her Majesty's Government make a similiar statement to that made by General de Gaulle? There is nothing to prevent us from saying that the frontiers should not be changed; that they are permanent now.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I think the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, will appreciate very well that that is certainly a matter that I should have to
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leave to the Foreign Secretary. There was a question on this very matter which was raised in another place, and this was the reply, quoting the Federal German Government [OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, Vol. 573, col. 353]:
"'only an all-German Government and a Parliament elected by the entire German nation are entitled to make this decision on the future German Eastern frontiers '."
I think that that is pretty definite.
I do not want to detain your Lordships for long. Even the very innocent question of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, is going to receive a reply which, I am afraid, he may find disappointing. He referred in his speech to proposals for placing Antarctica under international control. I am informed that a twelve-Power working group has been meeting in Washington since June of last year to prepare the way for a conference. The members of the working group are representatives from the countries which were invited by President Eisenhower in May of 1958, but no date has yet been fixed for the conference. Members of the working group, including the United Kingdom, have agreed among themselves not to give any public information, because this might prejudice the chances of an agreement. Her Majesty's Government sincerely hope that agreement will be reached at a conference on the two basic principles underlying President Eisenhower's original invitation. These two principles are freedom of and continued co-operation in scientific research, and the non-militarisation of the area. So, alas, my Lords, that is all the information that I have at my disposal on the subject as raised by the noble Lord. Lord Shackleton.
My Lords, the position of a Junior Minister in the Foreign Office, as the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, knows, is one in which very interesting work is enjoyed. It is a position where, alas, one does not have the freedom of noble Lords who sit where my noble friend Lord Reading now sits. In concluding my remarks this afternoon I would say that I believe that much has been said of great value. I listened to the string of questions which the noble Lord. Lord Silkin, rhetorically addressed to the Prime Minister; and I realise that these questions were all intended to be helpful. There were, perhaps, points on which I did not find myself entirely in agreement

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with the noble Lord, though that would not surprise him. But what I did feel throughout was that everything that he was saying—as, indeed, everything that was said by other speakers this afternoon: the noble Earl, Lord Attlee; the noble Marquess, Lord Reading; and the many other speakers who have spoken—had one object only, and that was to make contributions that could conceivably be useful. I would assure noble Lords that, in so far as it is within my power, everything that has been said this afternoon will be carefully considered and will be treated with the respect that it deserves.
6.8 p.m.
LORD HENDERSON: My Lords, in rising to ask leave to withdraw my Motion I should like, first of all, to thank the noble Marquess, the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, for the trouble he has taken to answer the many questions that have been raised during the debate. I have succeeded in getting answers to three questions that I raised myself, and each answer turned me down. I must therefore look at his answers carefully to see whether, though they are acceptable in terms of fact and law, they are acceptable in terms of political judgment. Then, on behalf of other speakers, I should like to thank the noble Marquess for dealing with the points of information which they raised. I am sure they would wish me to do that.
At the beginning of our discussion I said that I thought that perhaps the time for this debate had not been well chosen. I had in mind in particular, of course, the fact that conferences are about to
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open, and that little could be said here which was likely to influence decisions which we understand to have been taken. However, the Motion was wide open, and it was possible to range quite widely over the world: and I think the debate has been a very worthwhile debate. Some fine speeches have been made. We have not been tied down to any narrow area of discussion, and I think that the quality of the debate has justified its taking place to-day.
I want to thank all noble Lords who have taken part. In the past, perhaps, we have been restricted because of the pressure of the German problem. Speaking from memory, I think it must be some months since last we had a general foreign affairs debate, and I feel that, so far as the Opposition are concerned, we must protect the right of noble Lords to have more general debates and hold debates on particular issues only when an issue really calls for debate. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

CALVINISTIC METHODIST OR PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH OF WALES (AMENDMENT) [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments considered and agreed to.

BOOTLE CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
House adjourned at eleven minutes past six o'clock.