Sitting of 2 June 1959

Preamble
The House—after the Adjournment on 15th May, 1959, for the Whitsun Recess—met at half-past Two o'clock.
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
DEATHS OF MEMBERS
Mr. Speaker: I regret to have to inform the House of the deaths of Richard Fort, esquire, Member for Clitheroe, and Percy Lionel Edward Shurmer, esquire, Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook, and I desire, on behalf of the House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the hon. Members.

NEW WRITS
Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER acquainted the House that he had issued, during the Adjournment, Warrants for new Writs, namely:
For Penistone, in the room of Henry George McGhee, esquire, deceased;
For Whitehaven, in the room of Frank Anderson, esquire, deceased.

PRIVATE BUSINESS
  ROYAL WANSTEAD SCHOOL BILL [Lords]
  Read the Third time and passed, without Amendment.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF WORKS

    Boston Manor House, Brentford
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Works what steps are being taken to restore and utilise Boston Manor, Brentford.
    The Minister of Works (Mr. Hugh Molson): On the advice of the Historic Buildings Council for England, I have offered Brentford and Chiswick Borough Council a grant not exceeding £2,000, to meet 50 per cent. of the cost of structural repairs to Boston Manor House. I hope that this will enable them to restore the house and bring it back into use.

    Nos. 10, 11 and 12 Downing Street (Reconstruction)
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Works what progress has taken place with the proposals for reconstruction of Nos. 10, 11 and 12 Downing Street.
    Mr. Molson: The Royal Fine Art Commission has been consulted about the proposals and has expressed itself well satisfied with the lines on which the architect is working. Mr. Erith is now developing his plans further.

    Viscount Trenchard (Statue)
    Sir A. V. Harveyasked the Minister of Works whether he is yet in a position to make a further statement

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    regarding the memorial to Marshal of the Royal Air Force the Viscount Trenchard.
    Mr. Molson: I have now received the report of the Committee which I appointed to advise me on the memorial. The Committee has unanimously recommended that Mr. William McMillan should be commissioned to make a bronze statue of Lord Trenchard, that the statue should be sited in the gardens to be laid out on the river frontage of the new Air Ministry building in Whitehall, and that Mr. McMillan should work in conjunction with Sir Albert Richardson, who has very kindly offered to design the pedestal for the statue.
    I accept these recommendations and thank the Committee for its work. I should like to pay tribute particularly to the late Lord Templewood, the Chairman of the Committee, whose own distinguished career included three periods as Secretary of State for Air. It was only a few days before his death that he signed the report making these recommendations for a fitting memorial to Lord Trenchard.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his statement will give great satisfaction to both past and present members of the Royal Air Force, and the public as a whole, in view of the fact that it is a recognition of the very great services rendered by Lord Trenchard to this country?
    Mr. Molson: I am much obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend for what he has said.

    Stonehenge
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Minister of Works whether as a result of the excavations undertaken at Stonehenge last year, he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the date of the building of Stonehenge.
    Mr. Molson: As a result of excavations at Stonehenge last year, the date of the last phase of the building of Stonehenge is put between 1860 and 1560 B.C. This confirms the date already accepted by archaeologists.
    Mr. Fletcher: Does the Minister appreciate that these excavations and a report of the Ancient Monuments Board have attracted a great deal of attention? The
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    public will be glad of this confirmation as a result of the excavations that his Ministry have undertaken.
    Mr. Molson: I am very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said. These works have been carried out under the advice of the Ancient Monuments Board, which contains most of the most eminent archaeologists in this country. These works have been extremely skilfully carried out by architects of my Department and the archaeologists.
    Captain Pilkington: Is an attempt being made to date the earlier phase of the building of Stonehenge?
    Mr. Molson: That is obviously more difficult. The archaeologists have tried to discover when the earlier buildings were completed, but I think the purpose of the Question was to refer to the antlers which were found and used on the second rebuilding of Stonehenge and, therefore, tend only to confirm the date of the second rebuilding.

    Ancient Monuments (Protection)
    Mr. E. Fletcherasked the Minister of Works what further steps, in view of the recent report of the Ancient Monuments Board, he is proposing to take for the prevention of destruction of scheduled monuments.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Harmar Nicholls): The Ancient Monuments Board has recommended that, as a long-term project, all scheduled ancient monuments should be clearly marked with the object of avoiding unintentional damage such as sometimes occurs, for instance, in the course of agricultural operations. My right hon. Friend has arranged for a small number of the more important monuments to be so marked. When this limited programme is completed, he will consider what more should be done.
    Mr. Fletcher: Will the Parliamentary Secretary consider the desirability of expediting the programme as much as possible? If the co-operation of the public is to be secured in protecting these ancient monuments, it is obviously desirable that they should be marked as such.
    Mr. Nicholls: My right hon. Friend has a lot of sympathy for the hon. Gentleman's point, but he has to take account of

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    the cost. The cost is about £10 for each monument, and as there are 10,000 of them he must consider the cost involved.

    Royal Gallery (Paintings)
    Mr. Straussasked the Minister of Works whether he will have the two large wall paintings in the Royal Gallery cleaned.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: No, Sir. These paintings were cleaned last year and do not yet require further cleaning.
    Mr. Strauss: Has the Parliamentary Secretary looked at them recently? Is he aware that they are both so dark that it is quite difficult to tell which represents Trafalgar and which Waterloo? As these paintings are of considerable interest to visitors to the House, cannot the hon. Gentleman take some steps to have them properly cleaned?
    Mr. Nicholls: I understand the reaction of the right hon. Gentleman. I looked at these paintings carefully when his Question appeared on the Order Paper. Apparently the trouble is in the paint itself. The chemical changes in the content of the paint have made the pictures fade. There is no question of their being cleaned to bring out the colours again. This is not a new question; it was the subject of reports in 1895, 1896 and 1906. It is not just a matter of cleaning, but of the chemical deterioration of the paint itself, which gives the faded appearance which I recognise exists.
    Mr. Strauss: Does that mean that they cannot be made cleaner than they are today? They are useless now.
    Mr. Nicholls: It means that the only solution would be to have them repainted. They cannot be restored by cleaning, so to restore them completely would be terribly expensive.

  SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH

    Iron and Steel Technology
    Mr. Gurdenasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, in view of Russian advances in some aspects of scientific research on iron and steel technology, what steps have been taken to encourage the exchange of scientific
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    information and experience on this subject between this country and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: In addition to the normal arrangements made for exchanges of technical literature, preliminary visits were exchanged towards the end of last year between the British Iron and Steel Research Association, which is the cooperative research organisation grant-aided by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, and a corresponding research organisation in the U.S.S.R. Consequently it was agreed by the two organisations that there should be exchange visits by small groups of specialists to study certain facets of metallurgical research.
    Mr. Gurden: Have any of these exchange visits actually taken place? If so, what subjects of particular interest to the British team were discussed?
    Mr. Nicholls: The first British group, who were specialists in the continuous casting of steel, visited Russia in April, and we expect the Russian group to visit this country in June, but I cannot give the exact date.

    Scientific Cinematography
    Mr. Gurdenasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what steps the Government are taking to ensure that the value of scientific cinematography is fully appreciated in this country; and to what extent the work done in Russia in this respect has been studied.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: The Department of Scientific and Industrial Research has recognised the importance of this subject by holding a conference in London under the title of "The Cine Camera and Industrial Research" in April last year. It was attended by over 300 representatives of research organisations. An appreciable amount of information on the extensive use in U.S.S.R. of cine films for scientific purposes was obtained at the Twelfth Congress of the International Scientific Film Association held in Moscow in September last year.
    Mr. Gurden: I thank my hon. Friend for that information, but what of the future? His answer was concerned with the past.
    Mr. Nicholls: The Twelfth Congress was in Moscow and the thirteenth will be in Oxford and London this year. We have undertaken to finance it to the extent of £2,500, provided industry finds an equivalent amount.

    Slaughterhouse Wastes
    Mr. Robert Jenkinsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, whether the Water Pollution Research Laboratory of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research has yet investigated the treatment of slaughterhouse wastes, which can cause serious pollution of rivers; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: The Laboratory is investigating a method of disposal known as anaerobic digestion. A small pilot scale plant has been in operation for approximately a year. The information so far obtained is hopeful and there is a good prospect that it will be worth while building and testing one or more full-scale plants; further developments would depend on the results obtained from these.
    Mr. Jenkins: I thank my hon. Friend for that information, but can he give an assurance that the knowledge will be brought to the attention of local authorities and all other persons or bodies who can make use of it?
    Mr. Nicholls: Certainly. This new treatment means that a smaller plant can do the job, which will mean a great saving in cost. I can assure my hon. Friend that this will be made well known, so that all who can profit from it will have an opportunity of doing so.

    Prestressed Concrete
    Mr. Robert Jenkinsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what research has been carried out on the susceptibility of pre stressed concrete to damage by fire.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: The Joint Fire Research Organisation of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Fire Offices Committee has, in cooperation with the Building Research Station, carried out research on the resistance to fire of prestressed concrete
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    beams and floors. As a result, early fears about the ability of this new form of construction to withstand fire have been shown to be unfounded.
    Mr. Jenkins: I thank my hon. Friend for that most important announcement. Will the Government now ensure that the fire-restistant properties of prestressed concrete are made more widely known?
    Mr. Nicholls: Yes. The results of this work are to be published in a code of practice by the British Standards Institution, but perhaps the best compliment which can be paid to its efficacy is the fact that it has been chosen for a large new laboratory for the Fire Research Station which is designed to carry out fire experiments.

    Electroplating Wastes
    Lieut.-Colonel Cordeauxasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, to what extent the Water Pollution Research Laboratory of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research has investigated the treatment of electroplating wastes, particularly those containing cyanides.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: Full-scale chemical treatment plant has been installed in many factories and, in addition, pilot scale experiments have shown that certain types of cyanide waste can be treated by a biological process which, in suitable conditions, may be cheaper. This has yet to be confirmed in a full scale plant.
    Lieut.-Colonel Cordeaux: I thank my hon. Friend for that information, but will he ensure that this knowledge is brought to the attention of the firms concerned, so that they will not spend a lot of unnecessary money on expensive plant when something cheaper is just as good?
    Mr. Nicholls: Certainly. The results obtained so far have been very widely published, and after the experiments have been confirmed greater efforts will be made to see that people who can profit from it have all the details of it.
    Mr. Harold Davies: May I draw the Minister's attention to the number of Questions on the Order Paper asking for research to be undertaken? Is the Minister aware of the growing tendency for

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    the taxpayer to pay for research in industry—in shipping, steel, coal, transport, and now in this type of industry? In other words, we are reaching the stage of society where we socialise the losses and "privatise" the profits. Is it not time that private enterprise did a bit?
    Mr. Nicholls: In answer to that general proposition, I would say that when private industry makes use of these research projects it makes a contribution to the cost. Usually, research is based upon the fact that industry makes a contribution equivalent to that of the taxpayers.

    Hydro-electric Pump-storage Schemes
    Lieut.-Colonel Cordeauxasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works, as representing the Lord President of the Council, what facilities are available within the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research to help in the design of hydraulic machinery which can efficiently be used in hydro-electric pump-storage schemes.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: For this purpose the National Engineering Laboratory of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research has installed special rigs for testing pump models, up to 300 h.p., very accurately over a wide range of working conditions, including those met with in pump-storage schemes.
    Lieut-Colonel Cordeaux: Is my hon. Friend sure that industry is making proper use of these important facilities?
    Mr. Nicholls: Yes, I think so. Indeed, nine firms have taken advantage of this rig, and everything points to the fact that the results they have obtained will encourage more people to do so.
    Mr. Woodburn: Are we to take it that this is something new, or is it an improvement on what has been contemplated in connection with the hydro-electric pump-storage scheme at Loch Sloy? Are we to take it as certain that the very latest methods will be employed in connection with this scheme?
    Mr. Nicholls: I think that this is rather an improvement on the past. Although I would not like to be held to it in answer to a supplementary question, I do not think there is anything specifically new about it. But a lot of thought has been given to the provision of test equipment
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    to avoid waste of electricity in off-peak periods. Those pumps may be used in a process which has been explained to the House in the past.

  SCOTLAND

    International Fisheries Trade Fair
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland in view of the satisfactory results which flowed to the Aberdeen fishing industry from the Inter national Fisheries Trade Fair held in Copenhagen in September, 1957, if he will now promote a similar international fisheries trade fair in Scotland; and what are his present plans to extend Scottish products in this way.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. John Maclay): As the hon. and learned Member knows, I passed on his suggestion for an international fisheries trade fair in Scotland to the Scottish Council (Development and Industry). I understand, however, that the Council is at present unable to undertake any further commitments.
    Mr. Hughes: Will the Secretary of State bear in mind that such a fair may have three important results: it may pave the way towards agreement on territorial waters, a much disputed matter; it may reduce international tension over fisheries; and it may result in the creation of new markets on a reciprocal basis between the Scandinavian countries and Britain?
    Mr. Maclay: I doubt whether a single trade fair would go far in achieving these very admirable aims. I am sure that Scottish merchants need no encouragement from me to advertise the high quality of their fish in markets overseas.

    Tourist Industry
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will state his plans for assisting the extension of the tourist industry in Scotland during 1959 and 1960.
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what immediate steps he proposes to take to co-ordinate existing plans for developing Scottish tourism; and if he will himself initiate a drive to stimulate this trade and prepare for its adequate hospitality.
    Mr. Maclay: The stimulation of the tourist trade in Scotland, and the coordination of the various plans for developing that trade, are undertaken primarily by the Scottish Tourist Board. I am at present discussing with the Board the best means of improving the organisation of accommodation and facilities for tourists in the Highlands, and I hope to tell the House before long the result of these discussions.
    Mr. Hughes: I thank the Minister for that answer. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that there are at least two aspects which still need development: the seasonal one of ski-ing in winter and pony trekking in summer; and the development of the hotels, including the provision of better roads for the tourists?
    Mr. Maclay: The Scottish Tourist Board and the Scottish Council for Physical Recreation have already had some success in encouraging sports such as the hon. and learned Gentleman has mentioned. D.A.T.A.C. assistance is available for hotels, and I intend to press on with the roads programme already announced.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is not the Secretary of State of opinion that the time is coming when this matter should be surveyed as a comprehensive problem? For example, in addition to the development of facilities for the carriage of cars to Perth by rail, could not provision be made for the hiring of caravans in which to tour the Highlands, pending the provision of hotel accommodation? Does not it appear desirable to the Secretary of State to set up a comprehensive inquiry into the best way to develop the tourist industry in order to ensure that its growing potentialities are not lost?
    Mr. Maclay: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman on the importance on the matters he has mentioned. They are the kind of things which I am discussing with the Scottish Tourist Board.
    Sir F. Medlicott: Is my right lion. Friend aware that a great deal of the attractiveness of Scotland arises from the fact that it is not over-run by tourists? Will he keep in mind a proper balance in this matter, lest some of the magic of that wonderful country be lost?
    Mr. Maclay: Such a balance is a very important matter, but I think we can
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    still take a good many more tourists in Scotland without damaging the beauty of the country.
    Mr. Spenceasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will set up a committee of inquiry to report on the economics of providing roads and car parks, mountain cable railways and restaurants in order to develop appropriate mountain districts as an all-the-year-round attraction and industry.
    Mr. Maclay: No, Sir, but I will discuss my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion with the Scottish Tourist Board.

    Clean Air Act
    Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is yet in a position to make a statement on the working of the Clean Air Act in the control area where it has been operated by the local authority, indicating its effect on the health of the people in that area.
    Mr. Maclay: As the Edinburgh Sight-hill Smoke Control Area Order came into operation only on 1st January this year, it is still too early to assess its effect on health. I understand that the order is operating satisfactorily and that there is already a noticeable improvement in air conditions in the area.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Secretary of State remember that before that Bill was passed I drew his attention to the fragrant chemical fumes in the Bannermill area of Aberdeen? Will the right hon. Gentleman say what he is doing in order to clarify and purify the air there?
    Mr. Maclay: The pollution to which the hon. and learned Gentleman refers is a matter which may be controlled under the provisions of a different Act from the one we are discussing in reply to his original Question. If the hon. and learned Gentleman will put another Question on the Order Paper, I will deal with it.

    Houses, Douglas
    Mr. Patrick Maitlandasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many subsidised houses now stand empty at Douglas and Douglas West in the county of Lanark.
    Mr. Maclay: On 29th May, 27 houses were unlet at Douglas and none at Douglas West.
    Mr. Maitland: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are also many unsubsidised houses that are empty, that something like 70 families have already left the place and that the Minister of State, Scottish Office, calculated that another 200 families may go? Will he give an assurance that he will do everything possible to attract industry to the area and, in particular, to use the available empty subsidised houses to that end?
    Mr. Maclay: I am fully aware of the problem in the area, and I know that the National Coal Board also has vacant houses. I think my hon. Friend has a Question on the Order Paper today addressed to the President of the Board of Trade relating to the industrial side of the matter.
    Miss Herbison: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many people in Scotland believe that he is still doing nothing at all for this distressed area of Lanarkshire—Douglas in the constituency of the hon. Member for Lanark (Mr. Patrick Maitland) and the Shotts and Harthill area in my constituency, where a pit was closed on Friday and nearly 100 miners were offered no other work? Will the right hon. Gentleman try to do something for these areas which urgently need the assistance of a Government who believe in planning our resources?
    Mr. Maclay: The hon. Lady must be aware of the various steps which we have taken during the last 12 months to encourage industry to come to Scotland. No doubt they will be discussed on other occasions.

    International Refugee Year
    Sir J. Duncanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that the incidence of tuberculosis in Scotland has been so reduced in recent years that there is now a surplus of specialist doctors, nurses, equipment and accommodation for this purpose; and whether he will authorise an offer in kind, in addition to the United Kingdom allocation of £100,000 in cash, of some of the surplus facilites in Scotland, now released, to the organisers of the International Refugee Year.
    Mr. Maclay: The answer to the first part of the Question is, "Yes, Sir." As regards the second part, Her Majesty's
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    Government are willing to consider any specific proposals which the United Kingdom Committee for the World Refugee Year may make to them for the treatment of refugees admitted temporarily to this country for that purpose.
    Sir J. Duncan: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I made the suggestion to the Government during the discussions of the Scottish Grand Committee? In view of the statement of the Prime Minister in the City yesterday that the contribution of £100,000 is to be doubled and that he will consider favourably any other form of contribution, will my right hon. Friend, in consultation with the Prime Minister, reconsider this matter on his own without waiting to receive suggestions from the National Committee?
    Mr. Maclay: I think it desirable that the United Kingdom Committee for the World Refugee Year should be brought into this matter. I am ready to discuss the question with my hon. Friend as soon as is convenient.

    Fishing Cruiser "Freya" (Loss)
    Sir J. Henderson-Stewartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what conclusions he has formed on the findings of the inquiry into the loss of the fishing cruiser "Freya"; and what steps he is considering to secure greater safety and range of stability in this type of vessel.
    Mr. Maclay: I have considered the findings of the fatal accident inquiry. The jury found no evidence of negligence or fault on the part of the Captain, officers and crew, and highly commended the courage and efficient conduct of the chief officer, Mr. Coull. There was no finding that "Freya" was an unsafe or unseaworthy ship and, indeed, I understand the expert evidence was to the contrary. I have accepted so far as my Department's ships are concerned the recommendation which the jury added to their verdict that the authorities should consider steps to increase the range of stability of any similar ships or otherwise to render them more safe, and I am in touch with the builders and the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation as to which ships should be modified and in what way.
    Sir J. Henderson-Stewart: I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. Does it mean that in due course, say, in six

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    months or a year from now, it may be possible to have further information on this matter, because undoubtedly there is a feeling of anxiety in some circles about the fact that this kind of boat should have been destroyed in the way it was?
    Mr. Maclay: Obviously continuous inquiry will go on, and we shall learn more as we consider proposals for improving the stability factor of our existing ships.

    River Forth (Pollution)
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the growing menace to the River Forth from Stirling seawards from pollution; and whether he is now in a position to state what early action will be taken towards purification of the river and estuary.
    Mr. MaclayI am aware that this matter has aroused a good deal of concern, but before control over pollution can be extended to the tidal waters of the Forth, an order under the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) (Scotland) Act 1951, is required. The public inquiry into my draft order has only recently finished and I now await the report.
    Mr. Woodburn: Is the Minister aware that there is just a chance that this project may founder upon arguments about who is to pay? Would it not prove wise in the long run for the Government to take notice and, if necessary, to put up some of the money to get the job done? Could not they provide some of the cash and collect it from the public in the next Budget?
    Mr. Maclay: I realise the importance of this matter, but I think I must get the report of the inquiry before making any further comment.

    Highlands and Islands (Piers)
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, as it has been the declared policy for many years that every major island in the Highlands should have a pier, he will give special priority to the nine islands which are still without them.
    Mr. Maclay: I have approved schemes for piers for two of these islands, and proposals for three more are under consideration. I will be glad to consider any
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    proposals which may be made for the remaining four islands, but it is for the county councils concerned to determine their priority in relations to the claims of other islands.
    Mr. Grimond: I appreciate that it is for the county councils to make the proposal in the first place, but would not the Secretary of State agree that these piers are of the utmost importance to the islands? Where they are sited is a technical matter, but the financing is largely a matter for the Government. May I urge the right hon. Gentleman to help the county councils to get the islands supplied with the piers which are absolutely vital to them?
    Mr. Maclay: I know the importance of this matter and we are getting on as fast as we can.

    Foreign Fishing Vessels
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps are being taken to see that foreign fishing fleets and vessels displaced from the Icelandic and Faroese grounds are not over-fishing in Scottish and, in particular, Shetland waters.
    Mr. Maclay: I have no evidence of foreign fishing vessels recently transferring their operations from grounds near Iceland or the Faroes to waters off the Scottish coast.

    North Sea Herring Stocks
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what evidence he has regarding the extent to which herring stocks in the North Sea are being reduced by trawling.
    Mr. Maclay: The herring stocks are subject to many influences, including the different forms of fishing, and it is not easy to separate the effects of each. This complex problem is being investigated by the scientists of the Fisheries Departments in collaboration with those of other countries who fish in the North Sea; it necessarily involves long-term study and no conclusive results are yet available.
    Mr. Grimond: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is widespread anxiety and doubt about the effect of the increased fishing, both on white fish and

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    on herring, and the destruction of spawn? While we know that all these inquiries are going on, may I ask whether they have not been going on for a long time and whether the right hon. Gentleman can give us an interim report on the outlook for fishing in these areas?
    Mr. Maclay: I will examine the latter part of that supplementary question, but I would not like to commit myself at this moment.

    Messrs. MacBrayne Steamer Services
    Mrs. Mannasked the Secretary of State for Scotland the name of his representative on the MacBrayne Steamer Services; how much his remuneration is; and how many meetings he attends each year.
    Mr. Maclay: The Government director on the company's board appointed by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation is Sir William Robieson. His remuneration, which is paid by the company, is £400 per annum. I am informed that he has attended 33 out of a possible 34 board meetings since his appointment.
    Mrs. Mann: I asked how many meetings he attended each year, but the right hon. Gentleman has given me the number since his appointment. If the right hon. Gentleman reports on the reorganisation of Messrs. MacBrayne and on complaints and criticisms about the state of the steamers and of the timetable, I should like specifically to know why, since this is probably the only transport subsidised in the British Isles, and to the tune of £300,000 a year, this House is kept in the dark?
    Mr. Maclay: The answer to the first part of that supplementary question is that the board of MacBrayne's has formal meetings once a month except in August and December. The answer to the second part is that there is constant contact between Sir William Robieson, my Department and MacBrayne's at which many of the subjects mentioned by the hon. Lady are discussed.
    Mrs. Mannasked the Secretary of State for Scotland, in view of the fact that Messrs. MacBrayne's transport subsidy is now £300,000 per annum, if he will state the proportion of this which is required for transport of Her Majesty's
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    mails; and what consultations are conducted with regard to the remainder, particularly in respect of transport services.
    Mr. Maclay: Provision is included in the estimate of the Post Office for a payment of £78,840 to Messrs. David MacBrayne Ltd. in respect of the carriage of mails. In addition to the discussions that took place before the present agreement between the Government and the company was concluded, the payments to the company are reviewed annually when the company's accounts are presented, and also when any change is made in their general services or charges.
    Mrs. Mann: Does the right hon. Gentleman's reply mean that, apart from Her Majesty's mails, the company is subsidised by more than £222,000 per annum? In view of the fact that this service is absolutely necessary to tourism in Scotland, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to see that we get a report annually in this House regarding the working of MacBrayne's?
    Mr. Maclay: Considerable details are given in the Estimates, as the hon. Lady will see when they come before the House. I should like to show her the details when they appear, but I will consider whether any more details are desirable or practicable.

    Deeside-Speyside Road
    Mr. Spenceasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will have a fresh survey made of the proposed line of a trunk road to link Deeside with Speyside, having regard to the performance of modern cars and the need to avoid the drifting of snow.
    Mr. Maclay: No, Sir. Such a road would not be a trunk road and any survey would be a matter for the highway authorities concerned, which are Aberdeen and Inverness County Councils.

    Care of Children (Expenditure)
    Mrs. Mannasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that the Scottish Home Estimates show a reduction of over £80,000 in regard to local authority care of children; and if he will explain this reduction.
    Mr. Maclay: The explanation of the reduction——
    Mrs. Mann: May I point out that a nought is missing from the figure in the Question as printed on the Paper?
    Mr. Maclay: The figure is actually £834,000. The explanation of the reduction is that this is one of the specific grants which have been replaced as from 16th May, 1958, by General Grant under the Local Government and Miscellaneous Financial Provisions (Scotland) Act, 1958.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    New Industry, Douglas
    Mr. Patrick Maitlandasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps Her Majesty's Government are now prepared to take to encourage the introduction of new industry at Douglas, Lanarkshire.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. John Rodgers): Applications for industrial development certificates would be granted and, as I told my hon. Friend on the 14th May, applications for financial assistance by any firm would be considered, provided it would offer employment to workers in an adjacent D.A.T.A.C. area.
    Mr. Maitland: Will my boo. Friend again consider the idea that all the 1945 Act powers should be made available for this area and that the area be treated on the same level as a D.A.T.A.C. area? Will he take steps to draw the attention of industrial concerns to the fact that subsidised houses are now standing empty in this area?
    Mr. Rodgers: It is true that 45 house holders——
    Mr. Maitland: About 75——
    Mr. Rodgers:—have left the area recently and that there are vacant houses there. This fact has been drawn to the attention of industrialists.

    U.S.S.R. (Trade Agreement)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on his recent visit to Russia.
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement on the outcome of his visit to Moscow.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Sir David Eccles): The text of a Five-Year Trade Agreement with the U.S.S.R. is published today in a White Paper. This agreement was made at the conclusion of discussions in Moscow which, although unexpectedly difficult at times, were always conducted in a fair and friendly spirit. I should like to express my thanks to the four business advisers who were good enough to join our Trade Delegation. Their help was most valuable.
    The Agreement provides new opportunities to expand trade in both directions. We expect a substantial increase, beginning in the next 12 months, in our imports of traditional goods from the Soviet Union, although care has been taken not to give any undertakings which might damage our Commonwealth sources of supply. On the other side, the Soviet Government expect to place substantial orders in this country for capital equipment and other industrial goods over and above their customary purchases, involving over the next five years orders to the amount of £600–£700 million. Provision is also made in the Agreement for the development of trade both ways in consumer goods. As a first step, new quotas are to be given to the amount of £2 million on each side. I am confident that the Agreement will benefit the United Kingdom as a whole.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that after this he is in danger of being denounced by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Shettleston (Mr. McGovern) as a "fellow traveller"? Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that this increase of trade with Russia will be of permanent advantage to this country? If so, is it not curious that we are spending more than £1,500 million a year to arm against a country which is to be one of our best customers?
    Mr. Eccles: I am quite satisfied that an expansion of Anglo-Soviet trade will be good from the economic point of view and also good from the point of view of international relations.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we on this side of the House and, I am sure, all hon. Members in all parts of the House very much welcome the conclusion of this agreement? We have, in fact, been pressing the Government for a very long

    21
    time to enter these negotiations. How soon does the right hon. Gentleman expect to be able to announce the details of this rather small but nevertheless very welcome exchange of trade in consumer goods between the two countries?
    Sir D. Eccles: The Soviet authorities agreed 10 have these negotiations here in London and set a time limit of six weeks.
    Mr. P. Williams: One point is of great interest to industrialists in this country. Can my right hon. Friend tell the House whether the orders by Russia for British goods will be placed by Government agencies, or whether there is a great deal of discretion to factory managers to choose different British goods and to discriminate between one and another?
    Sir D. Eccles: Recently, the Soviet authorities have decentralised to some extent their purchases of foreign goods, but all the organisations are, in fact, part of the Government machinery.
    Mr. Allaun: While welcoming this useful agreement, even though it only touches the fringe of the possibilities, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that France is offering quantities of cable to Russia which Britain is not because our officials say that it is embargoed? Does the right lion. Gentleman not think that the time is overdue for ending this strategic list entirely, except for military weapons?
    Sir D. Eccles: The problem of this particular inquiry on cable is under consideration by the Cocom Group. The Soviet authorities did not press the view at all strongly that the strategic list now included a lot of goods they would like to import.

    Take-over Bids
    Mr. Sydney Irvingasked the President of the Board of Trade, in view of growing public concern, whether he will set up a Departmental committee to investigate the operation of take-over bids, with a view to recommending such appropriate amendments to the Companies Act as may be necessary in the public interest.
    Mr. Swinglerasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will establish a commission of inquiry on the activities of small groups of financiers who take over, or attempt to take over, large concerns
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    without regard to the interests of the workers involved or the public generally, with power to recommend ways and means of amending the Companies Act so that the directors of industry may be made responsible to the community for actions affecting employment, wages, profits, and prices.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: My right hon. Friend does not think it necessary to seek any powers to discourage or restrain the making of take-over bids. Some takeover bids involve practices which are disliked but that is not sufficient reason for amending the Companies Act in the manner suggested.
    Mr. Irving: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that most intelligent people in the country will not regard this economic gang warfare as in the interests of the nation, of the consumers or of the workers involved, as it extends private monopoly control, which is undesirable? Is he aware also that these take-over bids confirm the view expressed on this side of the House about the ineffectiveness of control by shareholders? Will he not look into the matter to see whether some code of business ethics, or some other means, could be devised to protect the public interest?
    Mr. Rodgers: The great majority of take-over bids are of great benefit both economically and socially to the country. The possibility of such bids keeps directors on their toes and ensures that assets are fully utilised. On the whole, the take-over bids operate in the interest of the workers, the industry and the country as a whole.
    Mr. Swingler: Does the hon. Gentleman really think that that will go down well with the old-age pensioners? Is he aware that activities like those of Mr. Clore have revealed the disreputable nature of a lot of high finance, which, of course, is inevitable under the capitalist system? Has not the time obviously come to put an end to the making of huge untaxed fortunes? Should we not take action to put a stop to that? Is it not time that the directors of industry showed more responsibility for the community's interest?
    Mr. Rodgers: Questions referring to tax-free gains would be better addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer than to me.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether his very eloquent approval of these take-over bids has been checked in advance with the Institute of Directors? Did it approve of these takeover bids, or does it only resist them when it is a question of the British people having a share in equities?
    Mr. Rodgers: I can assure the right hon. Member that I have not been in any contact with the Institute of Directors and that the Answer given is that of the Government.
    Mr. Shinwell: Why should the Government not emulate the example of some of these financiers and industrialists? Why should the Government not take over some of these private concerns? Would it not be desirable for the State to extract some profit from these concerns instead of leaving it to these private financiers?
    Mr. Rodgers: I think the greatest example of take-over bids in recent years has been the nationalisation of such things as the railways, and that has not been to the interest of the workers.
    Mr. H. Morrison: As the hon. Gentleman has referred to the railways, is he aware that that was done after full Parliamentary debate and by the ordinary legislative process? Is he aware that in some cases these take-over bid operations are done in secret and that the first thing the directors of the taken-over company know is when someone walks in and says, "You are taken over"? Is it right that there should be nominee shareholders whereby there can be secret acquisitions without anybody knowing what is going on? In short, does the hon. Gentleman think that anything that capitalism does is right and anything the State does is wrong?
    Mr. Rodgers: I recognise that there are a number of practices which are disliked, some arising from the activities of the bidders and some from those of the directors, but if there were an attempt at a hidden take-over the Board of Trade has powers to investigate the matter.
    Mr. H. Wilson: Since the hon. Gentleman's knowledge of take-over history is a little limited, would he study the Answer given by one of his right hon. Friends to a Question about the successful State take-over bid in respect of
    24
    British Petroleum, which showed that the value of the shares had increased ninety-fold, all to the benefit of British people since that took place?
    Mr. Rodgers: I am well aware of the facts, but I wonder whether the right hon. Member would like to give an assurance that before any further nationalisation he will secure the views of the workers, for example, in the iron and steel industry and of the shareholders, including trade unions?
    Mr. Wilson: Would the hon. Gentleman say whether Mr. Clore consulted the workers or the directors in this industry before making the bid?
    Mr. Rodgers: As far as I am aware, no, but it was a perfectly open bid.
    Mr. Lipton: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Answer, I beg to give notice that I hope to raise the matter on Friday, when I have a Motion down about Capitalism and Socialism.

    Trade and Navigation Accounts
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will arrange that the Board of Trade publication, Accounts relating to Trade and Navigation of the United Kingdom, shall give more detailed information of the types of goods imported under Class D, Division 15, in order to assist manufacturers in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: I regret that it is not possible to expand any particular section of the Trade Accounts without either upsetting the balance of the publication or increasing its size and so delaying publication. When the trade in any particular item becomes sufficiently important, we are always glad to consider it.
    Information about the full list of headings distinguished in the Statistical Classification for Imported Goods, of which there are 170 in Class D, Division 15, as against the 82 shown in the Trade and Navigation Accounts, is, however, available from Her Majesty's Customs and Excise within five or six weeks of the end of the month on payment of a fee to cover the cost of extraction.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Does this publication give enough information to the smaller firms which, for example, are

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    seeking opportunities to manufacture under licence?
    Mr. Rodgers: I think it does. I do not quite know what particular information the smaller firms are looking for, but data can be extracted from the Customs and Excise in accordance with specification at a cost of 9d. per sheet with a minimum of 2s.

    Processed Milk
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will reconsider his decision to free all processed milk for licensing, in view of the quantities of foreign imports and their effect on home production.
    The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. John Vaughan-Morgan): Owing to a shortage of domestic supplies, imports of processed milk have been licensed freely since last December. But I understand that the supply position is changing and I am keeping the matter under review.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: Will my hon. Friend give very careful consideration to this decision which has been made, because it is impossible for some of the milk marketing boards to reduce their costs and, therefore, reduce the possibility of subsidies being paid by the Government if all these imports are allowed in free, including those not in short supply?
    Mr. Vaughan-Morgan: I think there are a great many interests concerned; they will all be taken into consideration.

    Scottish Manufacturers (Orders)
    Lady Tweedsmuirasked the President of the Board of Trade what arrangements the has made to keep Scottish manufacturers in touch with potential orders in manufacturing under licence or securing sub-contracts.
    Mr. J. Rodgers: Licence agreements and sub-contracts, whether with United Kingdom firms or with overseas firms, are usually arranged privately through the ordinary commercial channels, but the Board notifies trade associations and other subscribers to its Special Register Service of inquiries made to the Board's overseas Posts.
    Lady Tweedsmuir: What action is taken by the Board of Trade to work in conjunction with the Scottish Council in this matter? Many manufacturers who
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    perfectly understand the system of contracting to manufacture under licence or sub-contracting cannot get sufficient information from the Board of Trade in the early stages in Scotland.
    Mr. Rodgers: My understanding is that the Controller for Scotland is in close touch with the Scottish Council. I shall certainly look into the matter if my hon Friend will send me particulars.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    European Common Market
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will now make a further statement as to the proposals to extend the European Common Market to a wider free trade area; and what positive proposals to associate Commonwealth countries with such an area have emerged from the current series of Commonwealth consultations now taking place in London.
    The Paymaster-General (Mr. Reginald Maudling): The objective of Her Majesty's Government remains a multilateral association of the members of the European Economic Community with the other members of O.E.E.C. As announced last week, Her Majesty's Government have now agreed that United Kingdom officials should participate in discussions taking place in Stockholm on the possibility of setting up an association of seven countries which might lead in due course to a wider European association. No positive proposals for the association of Commonwealth countries with a wider European association emerged from the recent consultations among Commonwealth officials in London.
    Mr. Bellenger: Does that comprise the statement which the right hon. Gentleman promised to my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. H. Wilson) before Whitsun to give to the House—a comprehensive statement as to the progress of these various negotiations—or has the right hon. Gentleman anything further to say, and when can he say it?
    Mr. Maudling: I do not think that at this stage there is anything more I can usefully add, but if there are any Questions the right hon. Member would like to put down, I shall be happy to try to answer them.
    Mr. Jay: If the O.E.E.C. countries outside the Common Market six continue successfully with their present negotiations for some separate arrangement, are they not very much more likely to be able to negotiate successfully with the Common Market?
    Mr. Maudling: Certainly that is the hope of Her Majesty's Government.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT

    Caltex Oil Refinery
    Dr. Kingasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs, what reply he has sent to the communication received from the Caltex Company about a proposed refinery in Hampshire.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government and Minister for Welsh Affairs (Mr. Henry Brooke): I assume that the hon. Member refers to a letter dated 1st May from the solicitors representing this firm, saying that they had been instructed to withdraw the application for planning permission to build a refinery on Southampton Water. In reply, the solicitors were informed that the local inquiry which I had arranged for 12th May was accordingly cancelled.
    Dr. King: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is now clear that Caltex has merely postponed and not abandoned this idea of building a refinery? As that refinery can be of great economic value to the country and great value to the employment situation in South Hampshire, will the right hon. Gentleman do everything he can to persuade Caltex to go on with the original project?
    Mr. Brooke: No, Sir, that is not a question for me. My duty here, if an application comes before me, is to arrange an inquiry and to give a decision, but at present there is no application before me, and it would be quite outside my responsibilities to stimulate one.

    RADIOACTIVITY
    Mr. Swinglerasked the Prime Minister what machinery exists between the Western Powers for co-ordinating information and advice about radioactive fall-out.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Macmillan): The main international body for keeping problems of radiation in general under close and continuous review is the United Nations Scientific Committee on Radiation. An Agency of the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation is also preparing proposals for exchanging information on measurements of environmental radioactivity in member countries.
    Mr. Swingler: Is the Prime Minister satisfied with this machinery? Is he aware that from time to time there appear to have been considerable differences between the scientific advice given, for example, in the United States and in this country? Is he aware that there have also been considerable differences in the action taken by Governments? For example, the Danish Government have forbidden the use of rainwater for cooking because of the danger of Strontium 90, whereas no similar action seems to have been taken by any other Government. Is he satisfied that there is a proper channel for communication for all the latest information on radiation hazards?
    The Prime Minister: I am bound to say that a large amount of information is being produced. This general machinery seems satisfactory for interchanging it.
    Mr. Gaitskell: As I think the Prime Minister will recognise that conflicting statements are made from time to time in different countries, will the Government press for an early report by the United Nations Committee, which I think is composed of scientists from many different countries?
    The Prime Minister: This Question was
    "what machinery exists between the Western Powers."
    I thought that the United Nations machinery, which is comprehensive, was one aspect. I do not know what is meant by "the Western Powers", but if it means European Powers, then the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation is useful in that direction. I am sure that these are two bodies to which we can look to give us continual information on this matter.
    Mr. Gaitskell: Will the Prime Minister answer my question? Will the Government press for a further report from the

    29
    United Nations Committee, which is a scientific body, in order to try to clear up the confusion arising from conflicting reports?
    The Prime Minister: I should have to look into it. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would put that Question down, because I am not quite sure when the next report is timed to be produced.
    Mr. Bevanasked the Prime Minister if he will give the most recent evidence on the question of whether there is a threshold value for exposure to radiation below which there is no risk of either genetic damage, or leukaemia, or bone cancer.
    The Prime Minister: Research is continuing all the time in these matters but, as the House will realise, the work is inevitably difficult and time-consuming. On the basis of the existing evidence, it is impossible to say with certainty whether or not there is a threshold dose of radiation—from whatever source, natural or man-made—below which there is no risk of producing either genetic or somatic damage.
    There is some recent evidence to suggest that the genetic effects on mice of exposure to low dose rates of radiation may be less than would be expected on previously accepted assumptions. However, it is not yet known whether this would be true in other animals or in man. As for the somatic effects, although it is easy to demonstrate by experiment the harmful effects following thigh doses, it is very difficult to demonstrate any effects after exposure to very low doses of the order of magnitude of those that occur in human bones from fall-out, because these are only a small fraction of the natural radiation to which we are all inevitably exposed.
    Mr. Bevan: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Does that deal with the real problem here? The concept of a threshold was put forward a long time ago, giving the impression that as long as the radioactive fall-out was not above that limit, there was nothing to be apprehended. Was not the conception itself entirely false? Is it not a fact that the human organism in different parts of the world is subjected to radioactive influences which even normally might cause leukaemia or bone
    30
    cancer? If there is an increase in radioactivity, then a larger number of people will be affected by it. The threshold itself was therefore a fake concept from the very beginning.
    The Prime Minister: The Medical Research Council, which is the body which advises Her Majesty's Government, and the United Nations Scientific Committee have always accepted that there is no threshold of radiation exposure—I am taking radiation as a whole—below which is can be said with certainty that no genetic damage occurs. Neither the Medical Research Council nor the United Nations Committee has ever put forward this view as something on which one could say absolutely that below a certain amount there can be no damage. As for the somatic effects, it is much more difficult to answer exactly. That is why I think both the United Nations and the Medical Research people have always tried to give calculations giving both upper and lower limits.
    Mr. Bevan: Is the Prime Minister aware that his last reply entirely disposes of the very much publicised concept of a threshold? It is a purely subjective term having no objective scientific validity at all. I therefore hope that the newspapers will drop ridiculous nonsense of this sort.
    The Prime Minister: I am not prepared to enter into what appears to be more a philosophic than a scientific discussion whether this is a subjective or an objective concept. Since radiation as a whole has been going on for a very long time and is added to all the time, very largely by human effort—and in some countries, I am told, it is rising all the time—and since, of course, there is an addition by the nuclear tests, although to a much smaller fraction, it is very difficult to say that there is some definite point below which nobody can be injured by anything, but that is no more than saying that to be alive at all involves some risk.
    Dr. Summerskill: As the Prime Minister has told the House today that there is no known threshold dose, does he not agree that the previous advice which he was given is invalidated and that when he has told us that a small addition does not present a hazard to health, that view has been revealed by his answer today as having no foundation at all?
    The Prime Minister: I must repeat that the Medical Research Council, in all material reports on this matter, has always accepted the view that there is no absolute threshold of radiation below which no genetic damage may be done.
    Mr. S. Silverman: Does the Prime Minister's answer today mean that, having regard to the small additions to the total world radiation made by nuclear tests all over the world, if the conference proceeding in Geneva should fortunately reach unanimous agreement to stop all future tests, this will add nothing whatever to the safety of mankind?
    The Prime Minister: Obviously, since there are risks in all this, it must be bad to add to them. Obviously if there are risks there is no particular object in adding to them. That is why we have set up Lord Adrian's Committee, in respect of man-made radiation, to see whether this very large amount of radiation which is being used ought to be more carefully controlled, because that is where some of the risks are. I am bound to say that that is also why I am working so hard and why my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is working so hard at Geneva on this matter—so hard and so successfully, I hope. There are other than merely scientific advantages if we can achieve the first international agreement to control any form of weapons by arrangement and by proper inspection.
    Mr. Shinwell: Since the Prime Minister has mentioned the Foreign Secretary and the conference at Geneva, may I ask whether he can say who is responsible for the inspired statement that the Foreign Secretary is to be replaced?
    Mr. Speaker: I think that is very wide of the Question.
    The Prime Minister: There was no inspired statement of any kind, but this perhaps gives me the opportunity to say that I have been reading the newspapers, as no doubt the right hon. Gentleman has been reading them, and the Foreign Secretary and I hope to carry on our work together for a very long time to come. I noticed that the assumption of these articles was that there was bound to be another five years of Conservative Government. Whether we shall complete the full stint ourselves remains to be seen.
    Mr. Bevan: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if statements of this sort had been made by the Opposition we should have been accused of unpatriotically stabbing the Foreign Secretary in the back in the course of international negotiations?
    The Prime Minister: The Opposition do quite enough of that anyway.

    SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND (SPEECH)
    Mr. Emrys Hughesasked the Prime Minister whether the speech of the Secretary of State for Scotland on municipal housing, at the annual dinner of the National Federation of Property Owners at Pitlochry on 21st May represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
    The Prime Minister: What my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland said fully represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Hughes: Can we take it from that Answer that the Prime Minister has no intention of promoting the Secretary of State for Scotland to be the Foreign Secretary? Is the Prime Minister aware that the Secretary of State for Scotland said that council house tenants were the new privileged class who were paying disproportionately low rents and it would take time to complete the work that must be done? Does that mean that the Government are contemplating further legislation or action to increase the rents of municipal tenants?
    The Prime Minister: No. It is a matter for municipal authorities, but I have observed over the country as a whole that there is a general recognition that the problem of local government rents is something which local authorities ought to take care of and that the rents should be in relation to the current economic situation and have some regard both to the needs of the tenants and to the incomes of the tenants.

    NUCLEAR TESTS
    Mr. P. Noel-Bakerasked the Prime Minister whether, in default of a White Paper on the whole problem of nuclear tests and fall-out, he will present a White

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    Paper containing all the information of which Her Majesty's Government have cognisance concerning, first, the total fission yield from nuclear tests by the United Kingdom, the United States of America, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, respectively, in each of the years 1945 to 1958, secondly, the estimates supplied to him by the United States Atomic Energy Commission, under the information exchange agreement, of casualties due to nuclear tests and, thirdly, the new data on nuclear tests conducted underground and in outer space.
    The Prime Minister: With regard to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's Question, I have nothing to add to what I said on 14th May. With regard to the second part of the Question, which I assume refers to the estimated somatic or genetic effects of radiation from fallout, such information is not technically covered by the exchange agreement. It does, however, reach us from the United States through a variety of channels. With regard to the third part of the Question, a full statement was issued by the President of the United States on 5th January last, the day on which the data about underground tests were tabled at the Geneva Conference. No new data on high altitude tests have been tabled at the Geneva Conference, but the question of these tests is a matter for the Conference, and I am hopeful that their consideration will proceed.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Is this not all new information which is essential to the proper understanding of the issues at stake at the Geneva Conference? Does the Prime Minister not think it right to make it available to hon. Members?
    The Prime Minister: No. This is by way of being a private conference, although I know that it has been more or less agreed on all sides that certain statements should be put forward. I am very anxious that the conference should succeed. We are approaching a very important part of the conference on the scientific side, and it would be a mistake automatically to publish data which are made available to the conference as a whole.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Proceedings of the Committee on Pensions (Increase) [Money] exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of Standing Order No. 1 (Sittings of the House).—[The Prime Minister.]
SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE
House to meet on Friday, 5th June at Twelve o'clock, and Standing Order No. 2 (Friday sitting) to apply to the Sitting on that day with the substitution in line 9 of Five o'clock for Four o'clock.—[Mr. R. A. Butler.]

PENSIONS (INCREASE) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
3.34 p.m.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Derick Heathcoat Amory): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Among the many problems with which a Chancellor has to deal I find that few are apt to prove more complicated than those relating to superannuation. Often there is a double misfortune for me in that I find myself forced, for unassailable financial reasons, to come down against improvements in pension provisions. But today I have the double pleasure of presenting to the House a Measure which is, as these Bills go, relatively simple and one which will bring direct and, I hope, speedy benefit to over 400,000 men and women who are drawing pensions after careers of public service.
The House will recall that I undertook in my Budget statement that a review of public service pensions would begin at once. The increase in the cost of living with which we are dealing on this occasion is a less serious one than in the case of previous Bills. The Retail Price Index has risen 7 per cent. since the last Pension (Increase) Act took effect, whereas it rose 11 per cent. between the 1952 and 1956 Acts and 37 per cent. between the 1947 and 1952 Acts.
Since my Budget statement we have had the benefit of a number of consultations. We have had consultations with representatives of local authorities, upon whom part of the cost of these proposals will fall. A suggestion for a new scheme of pension increases was sent to them on the very day of the Budget speech, and my hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary had a most useful discussion with them on 14th April. I am glad to say that the reaction to our proposals at that meeting was favourable and that further consideration has led to their general acceptance by the local authority associations. I should like to say at this point how grateful I am to the local authority representatives for the energy with which they strove to meet the timetable which the Government's desire for prompt legislation imposed on them.
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We had a good deal less time for consultation on this occasion than in 1956.
My hon. and learned Friend also had the advantage of most helpful discussion with representatives of the Trades Union Congress. Earlier this year he had the pleasure of meeting a deputation from the Public Service Pensioners' Council which, through its affiliated organisations, represents pensioners from a good many branches of public service. We have also had the benefit of the views of the National Staff Side as well as many letters from individual pensioners which hon. Members have been good enough to share with us. Therefore, with all modesty we can claim to be well seized of the views of the many different interests who will be affected by the Bill.
I do not propose to say anything this afternoon about the pensions of retired members of the Forces and their dependants, as that is a matter not for this Bill, but for parallel action under the Royal Warrant procedure.
Close study of the Bill will have shown hon. Members that this is not an intrinsically simple type of legislation, but the Bill does no more than reflect the complexity of the many differing schemes which provide for civil servants, teachers, policemen, firemen, local government officers, National Health Service officers, including nurses, and many other smaller categories. Indeed, the only factors common to all these schemes are that they provide pensions from public funds and that they are, I believe, in the van of occupational schemes.
Beyond the diversity of the schemes themselves lies an even greater diversity of effect on individual pensioners according to their length of service and their pay, usually at the end of their service. In devising a scheme, therefore, that will do broad justice over the whole field and will be simple to apply, we have been greatly helped on this occasion by the 1956 Act, which did so much to simplify the labyrinth of earlier legislation. The House will recall that the 1956 Act, unlike its predecessors, provided for no means test and no income limit, though it had an earlier cut-off date for those who retired on higher incomes; and it removed such limitations from all the earlier Acts that preceded it.
That 1956 Act was a generous Measure, indeed, and, in that respect, worthy of

37
the record of Conservative Governments in this field——
Mr. Douglas Houghton: The right hon. Gentleman will, of course, recall that the 1956 Bill was considerably improved in Committee on the representation of hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the Committee, when we got rid of a scheme that based the pension increase on length of service and asked for compensation on the pensions paid.
Mr. Amory: I recall, of course, everything that is relevant to recall in this connection, and I hope that we can rely on hon. Members opposite to help us improve the Bill in Committee—if it is conceivably possible to improve it further—in any appropriate way.
Taken together, this Act and earlier Acts have already done a good deal to improve the pensions of those who retired some time ago, and we are, therefore, taking the previous Acts as a floor on which to build the improvements now proposed.
The basic scheme of the new Bill is quite simple. We propose that percentage increases should be applied to existing annual rates of pension, including increases given under existing legislation. The percentages, which are set out in Clause 1, vary according to the year in which the pension began. Those whose pensions began not later than 31st March, 1952, will receive an increase of 12 per cent. on their present annual rate of pension. The scale then descends by steps of 2 per cent. until those whose pensions began after 31st March, 1956, but not later than 31st March, 1957, will receive 2 per cent. Those who started to draw pensions after 31st March, 1957, will not receive an increase.
One of the great attractions of this simple, regular scale is that it can be easily understood by the pensioners concerned. I often feel that that is a point to which, perhaps, we sometimes pay too little attention in respect of a complicated technical subject like this, which will be of great interest to a very large number of people. The House may like to know that our intention, when the Bill passes into law, is to send to every pensioner who benefits a pamphlet explaining the main features of the scheme, and a notification of the precise amount by which his or her pension will be increased annually. That is the kind
38
of thing that, when it is administratively feasible, is a sensible and reasonable thing to try to do.
In emphasising the simplicity of the basic scheme, I should not like to leave the House with the impression that there is anything capricious or arbitrary about it. It has been devised, after very careful examination of the levels of pension attracted by service ending in different years. That examination disclosed a very complicated pattern indeed.
The first element in that pattern is the rise in pensions that has taken place since the war as a result of increases in pay, but there are different pension arrangements in each service. Most pensions are related to pay either at retirement, or over a very short period before retirement. Others are related to pay over the whole career. A few, even more complicated, are not related to pay at all. So, while there has been a general tendency for pension levels to rise, they have done so at different rates for different services—and at different rates even for different groups within the same service. That was one complication.
The second element in the pattern is the general tendency in the past two decades for the lower salaries and wages to rise faster than those in the middle and higher ranges, though even that is not universally true in the public services. Then there is a third element in the pattern; the effect, which I have mentioned, of past Pensions (Increase) Acts. Until the 1956 Act, the tendency was to concentrate on the smaller pensions. The 1956 Act took a wider scope, but the combined effect of all the Acts taken together is still to give relatively bigger increases in the case of the smaller pensions.
Already, the result of that has been to bring some of these smallest pensions of the earlier years up to, or very nearly up to, the level of those for corresponding services in much later years. The combined effect of all those factors has been to create a situation in which the lowest pensions are those awarded either before 1945, or between 1949 and 1952, or in both those periods. That is why we propose now that the maximum benefit, which is the increase of 12 per cent. should go to those whose pensions began before 31st March, 1952. That covers the whole of these hardest cases.

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I should like to stress here that the 12 per cent. applies, of course, to the basic pension as already increased in existing pensions increase legislation. Therefore, expressed as an increase of the basic pension alone, the 12 per cent. would often amount to much more than that—to over 20 per cent. in the case of the oldest and smallest pensions. Therefore, percentagewise, it is quite a considerable increase on the old basic pensions.
At the other end of the scale, as I have said, we propose 2 per cent. for those whose pensions began between 31st March, 1956, and 31st March, 1957. Bearing in mind the hardship qualification, it would be difficult to justify more than this, because quite soon after the latter date—31st March, 1957—we began to enter upon a period of relative stability in the cost of living, which hon. Members will be glad to see continues. The Retail Price Index for April of this year stood at 109·5—a slight fall from the 110·3 for March, and the same as the figure for April of last year. Between these two extremes of 12 per cent. and 2 per cent. we have filled in the scale by regular steps of 2 per cent., and that matches the general and continual rise of pensions related to pay over that period.
It will be noticed that we are not proposing that there should be any upper limit on the benefit that a pensioner may receive. In the last Bill there was an upper limit of, I think, £100. In this respect, I think that this proposal will be an improvement on the Act of 1956, and one that will be welcomed by the House.
Having outlined the broad intention of the Bill, I should like to say a word or two to those who may consider that, in one way or another, the Government's proposals do not go far enough. The method of proceeding which I have been explaining is based on the view held by successive Governments that the aim of such a Bill as this should be to relieve hardship and not to give full compensation for the increase in the cost of living over any particular period.
In other words the Bill does not purport to insulate public service pensioners from the effects of inflation. It seeks rather to add increases distributed so as to give greater benefit to those who— taking into account past increases and
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other factors—have suffered more acutely from inflation. These are, of course, to be found more particularly among the oldest pensioners.
There is, I know, a body of opinion, expressed most forcibly by the Public Service Pensioners' Council, that the right course is to bring every existing pension up to the amount which the individual concerned would be awarded if he were retiring today with the same length of service as he actually had. At first sight that is attractive, but it is not, I think, a proposition which this or any Government could accept, in present circumstances certainly.
It was certainly not accepted by the Government of hon. Gentlemen opposite, although the case for it when they were in office was the same in principle as it is today. It is actually a proposal for changing the whole basis of public service pension arrangements in such a way as to depart from the fundamental principle that pensions are directly related to length of service and pay on retirement and, once awarded, are not normally altered.
This proposal would, of course, amount to a revolutionary change, implying a quite new standard of employers' practice, and one which would place the public services on a totally different and more privileged footing from those in other employments. Apart from its merits or demerits, such a change would be wholly inappropriate in a Bill of this kind. Moreover, it would be enormously more costly. On actuarial advice, the cost in the first year of bringing all pensions up to the level of those related to current pay would be about £55 million, and that figure must be viewed against the background that the cost of public service pensions generally is tending to rise, in common with all other provisions for old age, as older people come to form an increasingly large proportion of the population.
I am sure that when I say all this the House will not suspect me of any lack of sympathy for those who have given good service over a long period to the community. We are concerned with a matter in which the Government and the local authorities have to balance their responsibility as employers, on the one hand, against their responsibility to the taxpayers and ratepayers, on the other. It

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would, I think, be difficult to feel that we should be justified in departing from what is sometimes called the principle of parity for one group of pensioners, bearing in mind that the cost of doing so would be bound to fall to some extent on others who are equally affected by inflation and who may be living on small fixed incomes which they have no means of augmenting.
These are what I regard to be very weighty arguments of principle against the doctrine of parity. They apply with almost equal force to all other variants of the main doctrine, including, for example, the proposal that rough equivalence with current pensions should be attained by an extended scale of percentage increases. I should add that there is a very practical difficulty in adopting the principle I have mentioned in its extreme and precise form of equating all existing pensions individually with those now being awarded to holders of corresponding posts.
That difficulty arises from the fact that over the past twenty-five years or so there have been very great changes indeed in the organisation of the various services with which we are dealing. Many are unrecognisably different from those that existed just after the First World War and markedly different from those which existed just before the Second World War.
In the Civil Service, for example, hundreds of grades which existed even as recently as 1945 disappeared in the postwar reorganisation. The same is true of the new services such as the National Health Service. In very many cases, therefore, it would be almost impossibly difficult to decide with what present day grade a pensioner who retired some years ago should be equated. I do not want to over-stress that side of the picture because in this country we have a great reputation for overcoming practical difficulties of this sort, and I would not say that this one is not capable of some solution. But it is not the main objection to parity and I mention it only in case it should be overlooked.
Having begun to anticipate criticism—although I do not expect there will be very much—perhaps I may continue a little further along this path. Just as we are not proposing to disturb any of the arrangements which led to the emergence of particular basic pensions under the
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various schemes, so we are not proposing to disturb the conditions for eligibility for pension increases which have been embodied in earlier Acts. The conditions set out in Clause 1 of the Bill may be summed up by my saying that to receive an increase a pensioner, other than a widow, must be aged at least 60 unless he retires on grounds of ill-health or has become unable to work since retirement.
There is, I know, a school of thought which believes that if a person begins to draw a pension under his own scheme before he is 60, which is, of course, not uncommon for certain classes of public servants such as policemen and firemen, as well as the Armed Forces, he should be able to draw a pension increase straight away. To abandon the limitation which Governments up to now have considered right would mean undermining the philosophy which, I think, we must maintain in these Bills, that the object of increasing any pension is primarily to relieve hardship.
Moreover, and perhaps this is even more important, it would be, I would have thought, inconsistent with national policy on the age of retirement, namely, that people should be encouraged to continue at work, though not necessarily in the same jobs, as long as they can. The taxpayers should not be asked to pay for increases of this kind in the pensions of people of working age who may reasonably be expected to get work at current rates of pay.
Again, some hon. Members may have noticed that the Bill does not specifically cover pensioners of industries which are now nationalised. There is a simple explanation of that. We deal exclusively in this Bill with pensioners who have earned their pensions in the public service and who are paid their pensions from public funds. Pensioners of industries now nationalised are not paid their pensions from public funds and it would be anomalous for this Bill to cover them. Moreover, it would be unnecessary, because the nationalised industries do not need additional statutory powers of this kind for the payment of pensions increase. The essential point is, however, that any improvement of pensions in this way is primarily a matter for the Board's concerned.
Somewhat similar considerations apply to those former colonial servants whose

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pensions are paid by overseas Governments.
Mr. Ernest Popplewell: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the question of the nationalised industries, may I remind him of the financial difficulty of the British Transport Commission which, consequently, cannot meet the claims of railway superannuitants? As the present Government have led the Commission into such difficult circumstances—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is quite true—will the Chancellor see whether he can do anything to assist this particularly unfortunate type of employee, the old railway superannuitant, whose pension is extremely low compared with present-day costs? Such people certainly come within the hardship category.
Mr. Amory: I do not dispute the last part of the hon. Gentleman's remarks. Some of these railway pensioners are in receipt of very small pensions. But I could not accept the hon. Gentleman's other statement that the policy of the present Government has led the railways into the present situation. If any Government is responsible for that, it was the Government of right hon. and hon. Members opposite. What I have said applies precisely, nevertheless, to the British Transport Commission as to other nationalised industries.
Dr. Horace King: The right hon. Gentleman has stated, the technical and constitutional reasons why he is unable to include people like railway superannuitants. Would he not agree that their moral case for an increase in pension is on all fours with that of other pensioners?
Mr. Amory: I have said that many of them are in receipt of small pensions which bring them into the same hardship class as other pensioners who are in receipt of small pensions. Of course, the nationalised industries concerned have shown themselves to be aware of their position and their responsibilities.
I was saying that somewhat similar considerations apply to the former colonial servants whose pensions are paid by oversea Governments. This Bill does not extend to them, although it does extend to the pensions of colonial servants paid from United Kingdom funds.
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But most colonial Governments grant increases to their pensioners not less favourable than those under these Acts, though with modifications to suit their particular pension schemes and local conditions. When the present Bill passes into law, as I hope it will my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary will be sending copies of the new Act to overseas Governments, inviting them to consider whether further improvements should be made to their own pensions.
Mr. John Tilney: Will my right hon. Friend tell the House what happens when a country such as Ghana refuses to implement even the last Pensions (Increase) Act?
Mr. Amory: I should like notice of that question in detail, but from what my hon. Friend has said I assume that the Ghana Government have the responsibility of paying these pensions. The ultimate decision would lie with the independent Commonwealth country concerned.
Mr. Raymond Gower: I am sorry to interrupt my right hon. Friend, but may I ask whether he will keep his eye particularly on the position of these former colonial servants in territories which are becoming independent? Whereas in the case even of the nationalised industries there are funds within the United Kingdom which can at some stage be made available for the payment of pensions, for people in these territories there are no funds under the command of any authority in this country with which these pensions can be made commensurate with those which are paid elsewhere. When a former colonial Government do not fulfil their duty, will my right hon. Friend reserve power to enable him to act in this matter?
Mr. Amory: I think that that would be difficult, but I will take note of what my hon. Friends have said, and I will have a word with my right hon. Friends the Colonial Secretary and the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations on this point.
I must not delay the House much longer, for I know that a number of hon. Members on both sides are anxious to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker. I have already referred to the essential simplicity of our proposals. It may be thought by the careful reader of the Bill that this is

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less apparent after Clause 1 than in the case of Clause 1. Certainly, at that point it becomes increasingly technical and I should hope that we should not today seek to go too deeply into its technicalities in advance of the Committee stage. The effects of the individual Clauses are described in the Financial and Explanatory Memorandum to the Bill and I shall not take up the time of the House by repeating them. In general, they follow the lines of previous Pensions (Increase) Acts.
There is, therefore, only one other matter to which I should refer now, namely, the cost of the increases proposed in the Bill. As the Memorandum states, this is estimated at about £8½ million a year initially, of which a little over £6 million will fall on the Exchequer and the remainder on local rates. The cost will fall gradually in future years as the number of pensioners affected declines. There will also be the cost of the parallel increases made by prerogative Instruments estimated at about £2¼ million initially and tending to rise as the years go by for some time.
Finally, in commending the Bill may I emphasise one aspect that I hope we shall keep in mind. This is a straightforward scheme and the Bill is as simple as it is possible to make it. A small price has had to be paid for this simplicity. In applying one broad scheme to a number of diverse superannuation schemes, and hence to an infinitely greater number of diverse individual pensions, we cannot escape small anomalies here and there as between one pensioner and another. Hon. Members will have no difficulty in finding small anomalies here of that kind.
I have studied this difficulty closely with my colleagues and we are satisfied that there is no way of avoiding that, short of producing a far more complicated scheme and an infinitely longer Bill. The important thing seems to me that we should strike the right balance between our obligations to the taxpayer generally and to those retired public servants who, unhappily, have seen the value of their pensions eroded by the fall in the value of money. I am satisfied that this Bill does do that.
For the future I draw encouragement from the stability of the economy, of which there is now greater promise than we have known for many years past, and
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it is on this basis that I invite the House to consider the Bill and approve it.
4.13 p.m.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: I am sure that the whole House is grateful to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the fact that he has thought it proper to introduce this Bill himself. It is an indication of the importance which he attaches to it and an indication, too, that he will listen to the various criticisms that will, I am positive, be offered from both sides of the House, and that when we reach the Committee stage he will act upon the advice given. At any rate, most of us hope so.
As the right hon. Gentleman said, this is not such a complicated Measure as the 1956 Act was. That did a lot of the work which it is no longer necessary for any Bill of this kind to do. We can, therefore, be grateful that today we have a relatively simple Measure to consider, although in some of its Clauses it is complicated enough.
This is actually the sixth Pensions (Increase) Bill which has been presented to Parliament in the last fifteen years. It has been found necessary to introduce them on an average of about every two and a half years—almost as often as we used to get the Isle of Man Customs Bills in recent times.
I thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer stuck his neck out, if Chancellors of the Exchequer can ever be said to do such a thing, when he said, towards the end of his speech, that he thought that, now the cost of living had remained fairly stable for a little while, this may possibly be the last Measure of its kind which the House will be asked to implement.
Mr. Amory: That is, of course, my hope, but I did not quite go so far as to state it.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: I do not want to depress the right hon. Gentleman, but I must remind him that, during the Second Reading debate on the 1956 Bill, the then Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who is now the Minister of Housing and Local Government, expressed just the same hope in his winding-up speech. That was only just over two years ago. Far from that being the last Bill of its kind, we have another now.

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From my recollection of the debates on the 1956 Bill, I am convinced that there is a general and sincere desire on both sides of the House, irrespective of party, to do the best we can for those who are affected by the provisions of the Bill. They have between them served the State in a number of capacities. I believe that the Bill covers about 400,000, and, if we include the Service pensioners who are covered by Royal Warrant, the number runs to half a million or more.
The need to match pensions with purchasing power has presented Parliament with a problem for some years. From 1944 onwards the list of Acts is quite long—1944, 1947, 1952, 1954 and 1956. All these Measures have failed to find any real solution of the problem which faces us in this matter of pensions for State servants. All of us would welcome a real attempt at a permanent solution by any Government, no matter of what party. I am sorry to say—I feel that the House and the Chancellor himself will agree—that we have not found such a solution in this Bill.
The Bill sets out to do no more than its predecessors, namely, to add a little to everybody's pension. I suppose that all we can do is to look forward to a similar Measure in two or three years when we, or our successors, will have to do the same again. But what is wanted, and what is devoutly wished for on both sides of the House, is legislation to provide machinery for a periodic and automatic review of pension rates in the light of the cost of living as it changes.
The Bill is, of course, an improvement on those which have gone before. Any increases in pensions, however small, are certainly bound to be that. As the Chancellor pointed out, however—we are grateful for it—the Bill does go further than its predecessors in that it abolishes what I might call the ceiling. There is now no upper limit, apart from the percentage laid down in the Bill, on the amount which the individual pensioner may receive. That was the drawback of the 1956 Act. It abolished the means test and did various other things which I will not now recapitulate, but it did, as the right hon. Gentleman reminded us, set an upper limit of £100, although, in addition, it did something for the higher-salaried civil servants which previous Measures had not done.
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It is interesting to note the astonishing advance made by the Treasury in this matter during the last five years. Most of us can remember the White Paper, Cmd. 9092, which was issued by the present Government in 1954, setting out their declared policy in this respect. Paragraph 44 of the document reads:
"The fundamental principle of public service pensions, that once they are awarded they are not normally subject to change in either direction, has been upheld by successive Governments. It has also been endorsed by Parliament. Her Majesty's Government are in no way prepared to abandon it."
That was the considered policy and view of the Government on this matter in 1954.
The Government have, of course, now abandoned it. They began to abandon it in the 1956 Act and they are abandoning it further in this Bill. The idea that only those on small pensions who were most hard hit should be helped has gone by the board and now anyone, irrespective of the size of his pension, has something. I do not object to this, of course, and neither do my right hon. and hon. Friends—far from it. But it means, I hope—I remind the House of it for this very reason—that the Chancellor will, when we reach the Committee stage, realise that the old sheet anchor on which the Government set such store has gone. We are now out in the open sea and can do what we will within the limits set by the finances available. We must do the very best we possibly can for the pensioners who look to us for help.
Pensions must be brought up to such a level as to enable them to buy what it was expected they would buy when they were awarded. I do not think that anyone will quarrel with that aim. It is a very modest goal, a much more modest one than that advocated by The Times in 1956, shortly before the Bill of that year was introduced. In a leading article, The Times, which is a very reputable journal not given to revolutionary views or statements, committed itself to the assertion that
"pensions should be kept in line with those payable to currently retiring servants of comparable status."
This afternoon the Chancellor referred to the fact that that view was held, although he did not indicate that it was held by so august an organ as The Times. It is, I know, a view held by many people,

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and there is much to commend it. I now commend it to the Chancellor for his consideration. Logically, there is much to be said for it. Salaries, and, with them, pensions, have gone up not because civil servants today are worth more than their predecessors, but because the cost of living has risen. But the cost of living has risen for the old-time pensioner, also. If he did not enjoy the salary emoluments of his office because he retired too soon, is this a reason—I put this to the Chancellor—why he should not enjoy the resulting pension which others now receive because they retired later? After all, the burden of the cost of living falls upon the schoolteacher, the retired county court judge, the civil servant, or whoever it may be, whenever he retires.
Mr. Ellis Smith: And those in manufacturing industries.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: And those in manufacturing industries, as my hon. Friend points out.
The landlord or the grocer does not say to Mr. A, "I shall charge you less because you retired in 1949", and to Mr. B, "I ask more from you because you retired in 1953 and, therefore, must be getting a higher pension." The burden of the cost of living, which it is the underlying purpose of the Bill to alleviate, bears as hardly on an individual whenever he retired, whether it was early or late.
Mr. Gower: Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to concede that if that argument were pressed too far it might distort the position of other people who have had to make provision for their own old age?
Mr. Glenvil Hall: One would have to look at the figures before one could accede to a proposition of that kind. We are dealing with civil servants and others who have served the State, often for up to forty years.
I understand that it is now an established principle—and this long list of Acts seems to bear that out—that Parliament has conceded that something should be done for pensioners as the cost of living goes up. It seems to me that the only question before us is: what should Parliament do to help these people? Should we relieve only a few
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at the bottom, and then in a parsimonious and meagre fashion, or should we do it in a proper way and relate what we do to the cost of living as it goes up and see that the pension which a person receives enables him to live a comfortable, decent and dignified life? I take the view that we should do everything we possibly can within the limits set by the financial structure under which we live.
As the Chancellor of the Exchequer pointed out, the method followed in the Bill is to give increases on a percentage basis. This method was begun in the 1956 Act and is continued here. The percentage varies according to the year in which retirement took place. I have had letters, and I take it that other hon. Members have had letters, from some of those affected by the Bill stating that the percentage increase, 12 per cent., 10 per cent., or whatever it may be, is not enough and that it should be more. From some of the letters and figures given to me, I think that there is a good deal to be said for that contention.
The Chancellor did not fully explain why the figure of 12 per cent. is laid down for everyone up to 31st March, 1952, whatever the date of their retirement. A little while ago there was a letter in The Times which drew attention to this point. I assume that the answer that the Treasury will give is that the 1956 Act covered the rises in the cost of living suffered by pre-1952 pensioners, that they received the 10 per cent., and, therefore, all that is necessary now in this Bill is to make up for the increased cost of living since 1951–52. I take it that that is the reason why there is a flat rate of 12 per cent. up to 1952 and thereafter, as salaries altered and went up, in the Civil Service certainly, the scale diminishes right down to 2 per cent. at March, 1957.
Mr. Amory: We would not say that the increases given in previous Acts covered the increases in the cost of living, but made contributions towards them.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: I understood that. The right hon. Gentleman was very fair. He did not claim too much either for previous legislation or for this. He made it quite clear that there had been no attempt to cover fully the rises in the cost of living: only an attempt to mitigate its worst hardships. Some of us

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may think that the amount given in mitigation is not as good as it might have been. Later in the debate some hon. Members will probably come back to this point. When we reach the Committee stage some of us will possibly put down Amendments to try to improve the scale.
As I understand it, the reason why 31st March, 1952, is put into the Bill as a sort of starting date is that in earlier legislation the pensioners up to that date were covered. But I am not sure that all pensioners were, in fact, completely covered. As has been stated already this afternoon by the Chancellor, there was a limit of £100 in the last Act. That was calculated on the basic pension. Today, the new percentage increase will not be founded on the basic pension, but on the basic pension plus any increases that have come to the recipient from earlier legislation.
It is not by any means plain to me—possibly the Financial Secretary will elucidate this point a little further—why those who were covered in the 1956 Act should not get more than the 12 per cent. which is laid down. I have been looking at the figures in the Library. As far as I can discover, if one takes the £ as being worth 20s. in October, 1951, by last January its value had dropped to 15s. 2d.—a decrease of 4s. 10d., or nearly 25 per cent. Compare the 12 per cent. in the Bill with this 25 per cent. drop in the cost of living during the same period.
It is small wonder that many a pensioner becomes bitter and believes that anything done for him is always too little and too late. In spite of what the Chancellor of the Exchequer says—that no attempt has been made in this Bill to equate pensions upwards with the cost of living—12 per cent. as against 25 per cent. is a bit too big a gap.
As I see it, there are some disadvantages in having a percentage scale and no upper limit. It means that if a man on a pension of £2,000 retired before 1952 and gets the full 12 per cent., he will receive an increase of £240—almost £5 a week—whereas the smaller man or woman—and there are many teachers who retired on very small pensions of well under £200—will not get anything like that sum. The most that a man on a
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pension of £100 can get, even if he receives the full 12 per cent., is £12 a year, which will not carry him very far.
Some figures were handed to me as the Chancellor was speaking. They deal with a postman who retired in 1939 after forty years' service. His pension then would have been £91. Now, under today's Bill, if it goes through in its present shape, together with previous advances under earlier legislation, he will get £182, or twice as much. Against £91, £182 sounds an excellent increase to give a man in the way of something extra because of the difficulties experienced due to the cost of living, but £182 is not very much. It will not carry him very far these days. A postman who retires now will get £235, which is at least about another £1 a week more than is being given to the man who retired in 1939 after just as long service as the man who retires now.
When we reach Committee, the Chancellor would be doing the pensioners and the public service a good turn if he would consider inserting in the Bill a minimum amount which pensioners should receive. I would like to see it made £1 a week so that those pensioners who, even under the Bill, will not get very much because their pensions are so small will feel that at least this has been realised and Parliament is anxious to help them.
Most of our criticisms of individual parts of the Bill, apart from the scales, can probably wait until we reach the Committee stage. Some of us on this side, however, are not happy about Clause 2. It has been inserted, I understand, to meet the case of the individual who has retired and is thereafter reemployed. Very often, a man may retire, notionally anyway, at the age of 60 and then carry on until he is 65. Clause 2 re-enacts Section 6 of the 1956 Act. It was inserted then, just as, I imagine, it is inserted now, to safeguard the interest of the individual concerned, otherwise he might find himself disqualified for an increase because of the dates which will be an integral part of the Bill.
I have had a number of letters centring around this provision. It stems, I imagine, from the Superannuation Act, 1834, Section 20 of which lays down that a person who is entitled to a pension but who continues to work cannot get more

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than the salary of the post would have brought him if he had continued properly in his original employment without the pension. In other words, the pension is diminished to such a figure as he would have got had he continued in his established post from the age of 60 onwards.
I would like the Chancellor to consider whether a change cannot be made to permit those who continue in the service of the Crown, and who, after all, are giving additional service to the State, to enjoy extra pension because of it. I am told that, under Clause 2, that will not be possible for the great majority of those affected.
In the earlier part of his speech, the Chancellor stated that the local authorities had been consulted about the provisions of the Bill. That, I gather, is true. I understand, however, that the local authorities feel that they were not given sufficient time for the consultations which took place. They regret this all the more because the same thing happened in 1956. Then, the local authorities were given insufficient time to consider the details of the Measure then produced and they were promised by the then Financial Secretary of the Treasury that should another Bill ever become necessary, they would be consulted in ample time.
I gather that the local authorities were given very short notice. On about 8th April, they were invited to meet the Treasury on 14th April. They have a legitimate grievance and they certainly feel that they have not been consulted in the way they were promised.
Dame Irene Ward: Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that if the local authorities had been given more time they might have suggested that they would increase their contributions? If the allegation is that they would have been more forthcoming if they had been given more time, I am all in favour of having more time, but I would like to know what the right hon. Gentleman means.
Mr. Hall: I have received from those who speak for the local authorities a complaint that although they were promised that on this occasion there would be ample time for consultation, they have not had such time and they have been rushed. Local authorities are responsible bodies. They have a duty to their electors and in a matter of this kind, when a contribution
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is expected from them, they are entitled to proper and full consultation. On this occasion, the local authorities feel that they have a grievance because they were warned on 7th April and the meeting was called for 14th April. It was quite impossible in that short time to get the local authorities together in a proper way.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. J. E. S. Simon): Perhaps I may say, since it was I who had the pleasure of meeting the representatives, that that was only a preliminary meeting and they were then asked to give their views in writing before the Bill was presented.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: Even then, one has only to consider the dates to realise that they could not have been given adequate time to go into the matter thoroughly and to consider it on behalf of local authorities, who themselves have a large number of pensioners who are affected by a Bill of this kind.
As the Financial Secretary has admitted, the local authority representatives were invited to meet the Treasury. They met the Treasury within a week or so of the original intimation from the Treasury. Thereafter, it is obvious from the date when the Bill was introduced that the local authorities were given little time for consultation. They feel all the more aggrieved, I understand, because they believe that in the Treasury this matter has been under consideration for some months. Their grievance is that they should have been taken into consultation earlier.
Finally, we on this side welcome the Bill so far as it goes. We hope that when it reaches Committee, hon. Members on the Government side will join together in trying to improve it. If the Committee stage of the 1956 Bill is any guide, we can count on the support of hon. Gentlemen opposite for a number of Amendments which seem to us to be necessary and which, we hope, when the time comes, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will accept.
4.40 p.m.
Sir Lionel Heald: I think that it will be generally agreed that, although the Bill is in principle quite uncontroversial, it is one which should have the very careful attention of the House and which we should approach in an entirely constructive and impartial

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spirit. After all, all of us in this House have a special responsibility towards these public servants, since we are the representatives of the public to whom they have given these many years of faithful service.
There is also the fact that this is a very difficult and complicated subject, as those of us know who have had occasion to go into it—far more complicated perhaps, than we thought when we started to look into it; and it is necessary to give careful and simple explanations if we are to prevent misunderstanding. In my experience, nothing is more distressing to a public servant who has considerable pride in his position than to feel, however erroneously, that he has not had a fair deal. As one said to me not very long ago, "If you have had V.R. and G.R. and E.R. on your collar you feel you really do belong to something." There is a very great deal in that. They do have real pride in their position.
I should like, therefore, to say at once that I really do believe that the Bill achieves a substantial measure of justice. Of course, it does not compensate anything like fully for the rise in the cost of living, and there are points of criticism, there are anomalies and various details which have not been dealt with and which we shall have to discuss in due course, and which it may or may not be possible to deal with; but I think that on the whole it represents a fairly important step forward, and that the responsible organisations concerned will support, and do support, that point of view.
I see that the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) is going to speak, if he catches your eye, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and I know that with great experience he is better able to speak on such a matter than I, and I hope and believe that he will be able to help us to assure these people that they really have got a substantial measure of justice.
I believe that I can speak with reasonable impartiality in this matter, having had the privilege of being chairman of an entirely unofficial group which was concerned first with the 1956 Act, with the circumstances which led to it, and which was revived this year, when it was obvious that we ought to urge the Government to deal again with the results of inflation in
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connection with these pensions. I can say that the members of that committee of which I had the privilege of being chairman feel that these public service pensioners ought not to allow themselves to be too much influenced by some of those—not in this House, of course, but outside—who have rather belittled the effect of the Bill and who have said that it really achieves nothing very much at all.
Perhaps I should add that we in that committee have never approached this matter on a party basis, or holding any brief for the Government. It is quite true that we were appointed by the back benchers on the Government side of the House, what is anachronistically called the 1922 Committee, which I personally think is a most misleading title, and which, I hope, we can get rid of. Perhaps this occasion will disabuse some people's minds that the 1922 Committee consists entirely of antediluvian diehards with long white beards.
If further proof is necessary, I have only to mention that one of the members, and one of my very valued assistants on the committee, was my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward). I think it is sufficient to mention her name to demonstrate that it is not the sort of committee which consists either of "rubber stamps" or "yes-women"—if there is such a thing as a "yes-woman".
One of the matters which always concerns us in our small group is one which has been already mentioned, this great disparity between those who retired perhaps some thirty years apart and of the same rank and who are yet receiving an entirely different amount of basic pension. The postman has already been mentioned. In 1939, his basic pension was £91; in 1957, the basic pension was £235. We took this matter up in 1955, but the Government at that time did not feel able to deal with it.
This year we returned to the charge, and the Government took the view, quite understandably, as has already been explained, that the general principle that there should be a standard retirement pension for every grade applicable at whatever date of retirement might be relevant was not desirable and was certainly not a practicable thing. When we went into it we did see, after the discussion we had, that it would be extraordinarily difficult, if not quite impossible, to apply it

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where there had been so many changes over the years.
What my right hon. Friend did do—and we ought to be very grateful to him for taking this line—was something rather revolutionary. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) has pointed out, he dealt a further very heavy blow at Cmd. 9092. I was very glad that he did. I think it is rather moribund.
What he has done is very remarkable and there are these two factors in it which I think we ought to appreciate. The first is to apply a differential increase according to the date of retirement, which has the effect of giving a greater increase, of course, to those who have retired longest. There is no doubt about it that that will narrow the gap we all object to. Take, for instance, the executive officers who retired in 1939 and in 1956 respectively; that is to say, two men of the same rank. Their basic pension, the assessed pension, differed by £56 10s. After the 1956 Act it still differed by approximately £50. The figures were, respectively, £369 and £415. Under the Bill the respective figures will be £413 and £422, that is to say, a difference of only £9. That is a very striking improvement, and I think it is one which should be appreciated.
When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley was talking about the figure of 12 per cent. and comparing it with a figure of 25 per cent. depreciation in the value of money, I wondered whether he appreciated how the thing works. Of course, there are two factors. There is, first, the escalator percentage—one of those horrible terms which does not mean anything except that something goes up more than something else, but I hope it always goes up the same way all the time. However, that is what it is called. That is the application of 12 per cent. to the 1939 man and 2 per cent. to the 1956 man.
Of course, that has a big effect, but it is not only that. The application now made is not to the basic pension, as it has always been called. It is made to the basic pension plus the increases, which is having it both ways in a very admirable way. That is why it is that we get this result. When we talk about the 12 per cent. it really is much more than 12 per cent. in pensions language. For this reason, let us go back, for example, to our
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friend the postman with £91 in 1939. The addition of 12 per cent. to that is the equivalent of an addition of 22 per cent. on the basic pension. That is the reason why these amounts go up to that extent. It takes him up now to £182 against £91. In the intervening period he had £162 5s.
It is not a question of adding another 12 per cent. to his original pension. It is a case of adding 12 per cent. to the pension which he receives now. No one would suggest that £182 is a princely sum as a pension, but the fact that the pension has been doubled between 1939 and the present day is worth bearing in mind.
Mr. Glenvil Hall Mr. Glenvil Hall indicated dissent.
Sir L. Heald: The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley shakes his head, but twice £91 is £182, according to my arithmetic.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: I was not shaking my head at the fact that the right hon. and learned Gentleman was doubling £91 and making it £182, but at the implication of what he was saying. What really matters, and what we ought to take into account, is the value of money today. If that postman receiving £182 had the equivalent of the drop in the value of money since 1939, he would be receiving £250.
Sir L. Heald: I think that we all appreciate, and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has been more than fair about it, that there is no question of compensating for the increase in the cost of living. The right hon. Member for Colne Valley has to scratch around a little to find something to say on behalf of the Opposition, but he does it always in a kind and friendly way and we do not mind that. It reminds me of the old saying, "Don't shoot the pianist. He is doing his best". We need not quarrel about that, however, and I will get away from the point and consider an entirely different matter.
A very important step which is taken in the Bill has been mentioned already, but is worth mentioning again. Before 1956 there was a means test. Indeed, I think it was one of those cases which might well be described as a "mean test" as well as a means test, because it meant that a very large number of people received no increased pension at all. The 1956 Act removed that provision but we left untouched something which I would

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think, in a different way, is in principle equally objectionable. That was what was called a ceiling. It meant that because a man was a senior servant he had no increase at all.
That was thoroughly indefensible. It was a thoroughly egalitarian view which we had not got rid of in those days. I was delighted to hear the right hon. Member for Colne Valley say that we have now got rid of that nonsense and the idea that because a man received more than someone else there should be provision for a ceiling. If the view that that is nonsense spreads into other branches of the policy of the Opposition, it will be a good thing.
Before this new Bill becomes an Act, a 1948 retired civil servant with a basic pension of £1,000 a year receives no increase at all. In effect, he is carrying in his pension 66 per cent. inflation. It is a very good thing, indeed, that we are getting rid of that provision. The fact ought to be generally appreciated. The Bill will enable that same man to obtain £1,120, and if there are any further increases in future they will be calculated on the £1,120 and not on the £1,000. I make no apology for that change. It is an excellent thing that the old provision, like Cmd. 9092, is going into the waste-paper basket.
These are some of the improvements in the Bill, but there are defects to be noted on the other side. I shall not delay the House by discussing those in detail, but we know of them and I should like to say how grateful the group with whom I am associated feel to those individuals and associations who have sent us some interesting particulars. We have paid attention to them and will put them forward in due course, but there are also a few points of principle which can be dealt with by reference, not in any complicated detail, to the Clauses of the Bill.
Clause 2 contains a feature which I do not like at all. It provides that where a person has rendered further service, that is to say, when he has retired once and then gone back again, he is not to receive less pension by reason of going back. The mere fact that it should be necessary to say that at all seems to me rather appalling. How could Parliament possibly agree that a man—as in a case of
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which I have particulars—who has done forty-seven years' service and goes back to do a further eight years should receive less than if he had not gone back? But the fact is that the machinery is such that but for Clause 2 that would happen.
I have particulars of a case of a gentleman who was at the Admiralty for many years. It is interesting because it concerns a record of service about which the House might like to hear. This gentleman retired as a higher clerical officer from the Admiralty in 1946, after forty-five years' service. In August, 1951, he was re-employed and did another eight years. By the time he finished he was 78½ years old, but, in accordance with some machinery which I do not understand—probably something to do with trade union rules—he had to go back at a lower grade.
Although he was a higher clerical officer he was told, "You must come back as a clerical officer". When he retires finally, the earnings which come into the consideration of the pension are the earnings of a clerical officer and not those of a higher clerical officer. Although there has been a substantial increase in pay since the time when he first started working, and indeed since the time when he retired originally, the pay of a clerical officer is not anything like what his earnings would have been if he had retired as a higher clerical officer.
The result is that his retirement date is not the date when he retired but the date when he re-retired, and he does not receive any of the increases in pension, because he goes back to 1946 and all the increases since then occurred while his pension was frozen. He is, therefore, out of it. The net result is that he gets a very few pounds more than he would have got if he had not gone back at all and had treated the original retirement date as the end of his service.
I suggest in all humility, not with any accuracy but in general outline, that if this matter were divided into two parts and the man were told that in the first instance he was entitled to the pension on his real retirement, plus all the increases, and then was entitled to an addition for further service, it would be possible to say that justice had been done in his case. Another method of dealing with the matter would be for the man to be re-employed in his proper status.

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His retirement pension then would be basically on the lines of a very much higher earnings figure, and the same result might be obtained in the end.
Mr. H. Hynd: May I point out to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that if senior civil servants are to be allowed to continue in the senior grade to the age of 78½ years there is little chance of promotion for the others?
Sir L. Heald: I agree. I will not trespass on that ground because, if I rush in on it, I shall not be an angel. One should realise, however, that in the time of the hon. Gentleman's Government people were encouraged to go back to work, and also that I was not talking about a permanent secretary but of whether a man should be employed as a clerical officer or as a higher clerical officer, which is not the same thing, with all due respect.
On Clause 3, I want to mention a somewhat controversial point which has not been borne in mind sufficiently, I think. In the Indian Services, particularly the Indian police, it was compulsory to retire at 55; indeed, a number of people retired at an earlier age and their pensions were fixed according to the age at which they retired. Now, however, they are not allowed to draw a pension until they are 60, which means not only that they do not get the pension for some years, but, when they get it, they do not get the benefit under the new scheme of the increase made, for example, under the 1956 Act. As I understand it, this is because, according to the definition, they would not then be receiving any pension, and therefore there has been nothing to increase.
One finds, therefore, that the result of not allowing such people to draw their pensions until they are 60 has the result not only of postponing the pension, but also of reducing the amount they receive. That is a point which my hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary may like to look into. It has been pointed out in recent correspondence, and it was rather suggested by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor in passing today, that, after all, those people are only 55 years of age and that they can easily get some other work. All I can say it
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that if anyone can tell me where a friend of mine, who retired from a job in India at 55, can get a suitable job, I shall be very pleased to refer him to it. In fact, it is very difficult for such people.
There is a third case which I am nervous of rushing in to discuss, but it has been drawn to my attention and I would like the hon. Member for Sowerby, in due course, to help me about this. It has been said that there will be no need for any more of these increases because we hope we have stabilised the value of money. I am told that this is by no means the fact. In the case of a man who retired in 1957 on a three-year average pension that would have to be reached by taking three different figures and during that time those figures were rising because of inflation. I do not know the exact figures, but they were around £500, £530 and £550 and on the average of them his pension was based, which was not the figure for the year in which he retired. It could be said, so I am told, that the man who retired in 1957 was receiving only a 6 per cent. increase on his 1954 basis when, in fact, there was a rise in the cost of living of two or three times that amount. That point should also be looked into.
While we all hope sincerely that inflation will not return in this country, we also hope that the general standard of living will improve, so that at some time in the future there may be an improvement in the remuneration of civil servants. If that happens, the same position will arise again. In that event, any hardship will not be that of possible starvation but of a man being unable to live up to the standard of other people with whom he has always consorted. After all, a man who has been a civil servant has always had to maintain a standard, so that point also should be borne in mind.
There are a number of other cases that we must have in mind. One is that of the railway superannuitants, whose case is a very deserving one. I am thinking particularly of a very old engine driver. There are a number of these men, the salt of the earth, who are receiving extremely minute pensions—perhaps because engine drivers seem to live a very long time. No doubt this is due to the salubrious atmosphere of steam trains. I am sure that drivers of diesel engines will not be so healthy in the future.

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Another case is that of the Armed Forces. A suggestion was made, either in the Press or on television, that further effort was necessary to ensure that the Armed Forces have proper treatment. My right hon. Friend has pointed out that for practical purposes this procedure is automatic. Once we have decided to grant these increases, others will be made on a similar basis by Royal Warrant.
It has been said that the pensions increase machinery should not be of a hand-to-mouth type, which operates only when pressure has reached a certain strength. A number of correspondents have made this point and it has been suggested that there should be some organisation for regular review. I know there are objections to any cast-iron arrangement, but would it not be possible to have a committee which would keep the matter under review?
We went into this matter in 1955. A certain amount was done, though not everything we wanted, and this year we have had to start again from the beginning. That is not a businesslike way of dealing with this matter. Where small amounts are involved, could a little more generous view be taken? It is true that we cannot avoid anomalies, but it is a curious fact that anomalies seem to operate against the man concerned and in favour of those who have to pay the pension. Might it not be possible for an anomaly to work the other way?
Finally, we should remind ourselves that the greatest contribution we can make towards alleviating future hardship for public service pensioners, as well as others, is to prevent the return of inflation. We all know from contact with our constituents that the one thing which worries those on small fixed incomes is to see those incomes fading away. It will help these people more than anything else if we can assure them that this will not happen. We must also remember that the prevention of inflation is not entirely in the hands of our own Government. Conditions in the world may change and so cause inflation to arise. In the case we must have our tackle ready and be prepared and willing to deal with the situation when it arises, taking time by the forelock, instead of trying, as we have done in the past, to catch up with it.
5.10 p.m.
Dr. Horace King: I welcome the Bill and congratulate the Chancellor and all concerned. Before the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) spoke, most of us knew that he had been intimately concerned in the spade work before the Bill, just as he and the committee of which he was chairman did such excellent work in 1956. Those of us who have had the pleasure not only of hearing the right hon. and learned Gentleman in the House and in Committee on this subject but have had contact with him privately know how deeply he has interested himself in the well-being of the old pensioners of all classes of public service.
I think we might pay tribute to the Public Service Pensioners' Council, the association of all the various types of public servants, the National Union of Teachers, the Civil Service unions and the rest, because they have been putting pressure on the Government in what I might call an almost purely altruistic way. One of the things which make one believe in people is the way the young folk in the various branches of public service have been campaigning, largely because they want to help their old retired comrades, in a spirit of pure altruism. It might be enlightened altruism. As a letter in the Daily Telegraph this morning points out, the people in work today will, after all, be the veteran pensioners of some subsequent generation.
After welcoming the Bill wholeheartedly, I feel I must say, in spite of sounding ungracious—I hope that neither the Chancellor nor others on the Government Front Bench will think that what we say this afternoon is at all ungracious—that the Measure does not go far enough. Those of us who have been in contact with the people who stand to benefit from the Bill know that is true.
As to the magnitude of the Bill, it affects, as the Chancellor has pointed out, some 400,000 public servants. The amount of money involved is £11 million. This means that there will be an average increase of 10s. a week. However, as the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey pointed out, we have taken the ceiling off and a number of public service pensioners will get considerably more than 10s. a week and a lot—it is the lot at the bottom in which some of us

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are particularly interested—will get merely one or two shillings a week increase.
I understand that about £2¼ million of the £11 million a year will be provided by local authorities. I hope that in the conversations which took place the Government were able to assure the local authorities that this will be allowed for in the general grant which the Government make to local authorities.
The £11 million is one-fifth of what I understand it would cost to equate the position of the veteran pensioner with the position of a pensioner who retired tomorrow. So we are really conceding one-fifth of the claim of the public service pensioners. I am told that since the previous Measure was given its First Reading in February, 1956, the cost of living index figure has risen by ten points. On the other hand, the average provision made by the increases proposed in the Bill is by no means of that order. Therefore, we cannot even claim that the Bill takes the pensioners back to the value of their pensions at the time of the introduction of the 1956 Measure. That Measure mitigated the lot of veteran pensioners but it by no means brought the pensions in 1956 to the value which they had when they were first awarded.
As has been pointed out in every speech in every debate on this subject, the basic problem is that veteran pensioners are among the chief victims of inflation. Year by year they see what ought very often to have been honourable and comfortable incomes whittled away in value so that the evening of their life becomes anxious and what ought to have been comfort becomes hardship. The various Pensions (Increase) Acts which have been passed by Labour and Conservative Governments have mitigated the burden of inflation on the retired pensioner but have never given the pensioner in modern money the value of the pension for which he paid in.
The grievance of the veteran pensioner is even greater than that. The old retired teacher, civil servant, postman, policeman and local government clerk naturally compares himself with his colleagues in work today and compares the pension that he draws with what is earned by persons doing exactly the same work today, whose pension not only has some relation to inflation but is sometimes
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based on a salary expanded not only because of inflation but because of a betterment of the salary position for that class of worker.
When we discuss details in Committee it will be possible to present staggering figures showing the difference between former pensions and the pensions that some will earn today for doing the types of job that the veterans were doing twenty or thirty years ago. This must outrage the sense of justice of pensioners.
The claim of the old public service pensioner is twofold. He wants his pension raised to its original value in real money, and he believes he has a right to draw the same kind of pension as a person doing an equivalent job now. While that may be a Utopian goal, I hope that before the Bill leaves the Committee we shall be able to persuade the Chancellor to move a little nearer to that state of affairs. I hope, as does the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey, that we shall be able to tackle some of the details of the Bill in Committee, just as we tackled the 1956 Measure, and bring about some tidying up and some improvements.
The main weakness of the Bill to me is that it does not go wide enough. When we debated this issue in 1956, I congratulated the Government—I do so now—on the wide range of categories brought within the Bill. It was a real work of art and, as I said at the time, perhaps a real labour of love on the part of the committee over which the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey presided to draw the net in the Schedule so wide as to bring in almost every kind of public servant. However, the present Bill, like previous Measures, omits some types of public service pensioners towards whom the State has a moral responsibility.
I was glad that the right hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned the railway superannuitants, the old faithful servants of the various railway companies. Many of them had pensions which were pitifully small even by pre-war standards, and those meagre pensions have steadily dwindled. I can understand the difficulties of the British Transport Commission. It has made small increases, sometimes following in the steps of Governments, in the superannuation payments, but the increases have been by no means comparable to those which the Government have made in a succession of Pensions

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(Increase) Acts. The Commission has not the funds to give the whole of the increase to all its servants; its superannuation funds cannot by any means carry the burden of inflation. Therefore, I appeal to the Chancellor and to the Government to accept a responsibility which I believe it is their moral duty to accept, and to include this group of pensioners——
Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): I must ask the hon. Member to keep within the terms of the Bill. Those pensioners are not included in it.
Dr. King: With all respect, Sir Charles, I thought that I was in order in commenting on what was not in the Bill as well as what was in it.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: But the hon. Member was going beyond the scope of the Bill.
Dr. King: I am sorry that I cannot plead any further the case which some of us would have liked to plead. I hope that we shall have an opportunity of fighting this battle in Committee and of endeavouring to get this group included.
I end by saying that I am glad that the Bill gives the biggest increases to those needing the most and that what is called an escalator provision exists by which the veterans will get the maximum increase out of the Bill, since it is those whom we have mostly in mind. I know that both sides of the House will give the Bill their support.
I hope that in Committee we shall be able to improve the date on which the Bill is to come into operation and to backdate some of its provisions. It will help thousands of old people most of whom have small fixed incomes. Whatever has caused inflation—and there may be very fierce arguments about that between the two political parties—it is quite certain that the veterans whom we are helping this afternoon have had nothing to do with it. Theirs has been merely to endure the chief burden of inflation. I quote the words which struck me when I was reading a letter by Air Marshal Sir Gerald Gibbs in the Daily Telegraph today:
"This inflation may be unavoidable but why should we make the past workers suffer?"
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I understand from what you have said, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that I am unable to refer to those not mentioned in the Bill. I only express the hope that private enterprise will be inspired by what we are doing this afternoon. Pensioners in some great private industries have been treated generously in this matter by their employers. Other industries lag behind. I only hope that what the House is doing this afternoon for the veteran pensioners of the public services will be copied by private industries for the veteran pensioners of those industries. I hope that, having got this Measure through, we shall turn our attention to the pensioners whose need is even greater than that of those whom we are discussing this afternoon, the people with no form of superannuation except their State pensions.
5.23 p.m.
Mr. John Tilney: I hope that the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Dr. King) will forgive me if I do not comment on his largely agreeable speech. Many hon. Members want to contribute to the debate, and I want to take up the time of the House on only one aspect of the Bill which has already been mentioned in Question and Answer. I want to refer to the body of Government servants only partially mentioned in the Bill. If one has been lucky enough to serve in India, Pakistan, Burma or even in Palestine, all well and good, but there are many, who served largely in erstwhile Colonies, who are not mentioned in the Bill as likely to benefit from it. I believe that that is all the more bitter to them as their hopes were raised by a Question of my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward)—and few people have done more for the pensioner than she.
On 14th April, my hon. Friend asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he would
"… give an assurance that, in the investigations prior to the introduction of a new Pensions (Increase) Bill and a fresh Royal Warrant, the case of retired nurses, midwives, officers and other ranks and retired colonial servants will also be added to the list already announced as covered by the investigation?"
One would have thought from that, as many overseas civil servants thought, that the Question referred to them. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer replied:
"I envisaged increases of the pensions paid by Her Majesty's Government to nurses and

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midwives, to officers and other ranks, and to retired colonial civil servants."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th April, 1959; Vol. 603, c. 806.]
Of course, only a very small minority of overseas civil servants have their pensions paid directly by Her Majesty's Government.
I am not making a plea for those servants who have served many years outside this country in conditions often very unfavourable that they should be treated differently or in any way better than civil servants here. Some have already been treated better—if they were lucky enough to serve in Hong Kong, East Africa, or Rhodesia. However, many are treated far worse, and I am thinking particularly of West Africa.
A scientist, say, who served twenty-one years in Ghana as head of 3 department and who retired in 1938 had a pension of £594 per annum. If he was subject to the 1956 pensions increase, he would have got an extra £140 per annum. If he were subject to the increases under the Bill, he would get £228 per annum. However, from Ghana he has got no more than £6 and only a few weeks ago he received a communication to say that he could expect no more.
These cases occur not only in West Africa. A few days ago, I had a letter from a member of the Malayan Pensioners' Association saying:
"The prospect of a very left Government in Singapore makes the chances of getting any increases, whether to service or to widows' pensions, even less rosy. The Colonial Office's stock answer is, of course, always that 'this is a matter for the Colonial Government'. No doubt it is, but if the Colonial Government resolutely refuse to do anything it is really a waste of time writing to them."
After all, the officers of those days, who are now pensioners, were appointed by the Secretary of State and were moved from Colony to Colony by the Secretary of State. I know many people who were seconded from one area in Africa to another. If they were lucky enough to stay in East Africa, their pension is immensely greater than if they were unlucky enough to be seconded to the West. That seems very unfair. There are no fewer than forty-two Commonwealth Governments who pay pensions——
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I have given the hon. Member sufficient latitude. That has nothing to do with our Government.
Mr. Tilney: Some of them are paid by Her Majesty's Government and have already been paid increases if they have been lucky enough to have served in India, Pakistan, Burma, or even Palestine. If some have been lucky enough to have served in East Africa, they are better off than those who have served in West Africa.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I thought that it was the unlucky ones about whom the hon. Member was speaking.
Mrs. Eirene White: On a point of order. Will you enlighten us, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, on how far we can go on this matter? We are discussing a Bill on Second Reading and we have not yet had a Money Resolution. The title of the Bill refers to providing increases for certain pensions and does not specify which pensions. There is a Schedule in two parts and the second part refers to
"pensions payable by local authorities, etc."
That "etc." may cover a good deal. Is it not possible for us to argue that there should be certain additions to the Schedule, if we think fit? Can we not at least argue it at this stage?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The Money Resolution is on the Order Paper.
Mrs. White: We have not yet taken it.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: No, but that is the form in which it will be moved.
Mrs. White: We have not yet taken the Money Resolution and therefore we are not bound by it.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We must make some presumpton and one is that the Bill will be founded on it. The Money Resolution cannot be amended.
Mrs. White: I do not want to bandy words with the Chair, but it seems an undue restriction on a Bill with such a title.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It is nothing to do with the Chair. It is to do with the Money Resolution.
Mr. Tilney: On a point of order. I suggest that my point is somewhat different from that put by the hon. Member for Itchen. As far as I know, no Minister is directly responsible for railway superannuitants, whereas I suggest that at least

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one and probably three Ministers are responsible for these civil servants.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Has the hon. Gentleman finished his speech?
Mr. Tilney: No, I have not, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, because largely under my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, forty-two Governments are responsible for paying these pensions. The Financial Secretary has already said that the majority of them are very generous, and, in some casts, are more generous than the Government of the United Kingdom. I am not at all sure that they are more generous. The Financial Secretary was good enough to write to me on 26th May saying that he had every sympathy with my view
"that retired Colonial Service officers should in this matter of pensions increases be treated in no way worse than home civil servants. As you know, our policy is to encourage overseas governments to pay increases as favourable as those paid by Her Majesty's Government, and, in fact, almost all of them do so."
However, my information is that of those 42 Governments paying pensions no fewer than 21 are less generous to their civil servants than are Her Majesty's Government. That was true under the 1956 pensions increase and, of course, far more Governments will be less generous under this Bill.
It is only natural that many Governments like those of Ghana, Malaya or Singapore have to consider their own indigenous civil servants at the same time as they think about the expatriate ones. Their cost of living has not gone up to quite the same extent as it has in this country. Politically they find it extremely difficult to raise pensions.
I wish to ask my right hon. Friend what happens when overseas territories that are now self-governing, and for which we were responsible in the days when these colonial civil servants were working in their territories, say, "We are not prepared to pay any more." I believe that Her Majesty's Government have a major moral obligation to see that those civil servants are well treated.
I have here a list of West African widows and orphans from which I should like to quote a number of cases of pensioners who served for as many as twenty-four years and who contributed to a
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compulsory pension scheme. It might have been very much better had they not done so and had they invested their savings in a pensions policy of their own in the United Kingdom on a with-profits basis.
The first case concerns a civil servant who contributed for twenty-four years. His widow is dependent on an invalid daughter and has an income of under £4 a week. In another case the man paid contributions for twenty-one years and his widow is now on National Assistance. She gets help from her family.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Surely these are matters for which Her Majesty's Government are not responsible.
Mr. Tilney: These people were recruited by the Secretary of State for the Colonies and they joined a general service under the Crown. They were moved from one territory to another overseas on the fiat of whoever was the Secretary of State for the Colonies at the time. Surely Her Majesty's Government are responsible, or is the House going to announce to the world and to people who want to serve in territories overseas that it has forgotten all about these people? I cannot believe that is so.
Mr. Douglas Houghton: On a point of order. This is a Bill to provide for increases in certain pensions and the House has not yet decided what those certain pensions should be. As I understand it, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Tilney) is arguing that although some of the persons whom he has in mind are getting their pensions from local Governments he believes that the increases, if any, which these Governments are giving are inadequate. He is pleading that Her Majesty's Government should include in increases of certain pensions those which are inadequately increased by local Governments. Is that in order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, on the Bill?
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That, I thought, was not in order. That is the whole point. I was not in the Chair at the beginning of the debate, but I understand that the pensions given by the nationalised industries, for instance, cannot be criticised; and, in the same way, the Royal Warrant cannot be criticised. I thought that this matter came under the same heading.
Mr. Tilney: No Minister of the Crown is really responsible for pensions given by the nationalised industries, but I am suggesting that several Ministers of the Crown are, in the end, responsible for these colonial pensions.
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is just the point. If they are, well and good, but if they are not what the hon. Gentleman is saying is out of order.
Mr. Tilney: I suggest that they are responsible because the Financial Secretary of the Government of Nigeria—I do not know on whose authority—several years ago announced that if the widows and orphans pension fund of Nigeria were to be funded then there would be no further claim. I can only imagine that he was speaking on behalf of the Colonial Office at that time, and, therefore, that Her Majesty's Government are responsible. The Financial Secretary stated that in open debate in the Lagos House of Representatives.
I have some sympathy with many of these colonial Governments—several of which are extremely poor—who, because the cost of living in this country has risen, are asked for more money when equivalent indigenous civil servants now retired in their own country are not entitled to those increases. I wonder whether it is morally right to saddle those Governments with all the increases some of which may be due to a fall in the value of our own gilt edged securities. Surely it would be possible if there were a package deal in the future, on technical aid, on Government to Government loans or in some other way, for the Governments of Sierra Leone, Nigeria and of other territories to look after their old servants.
I have many friends in Nigeria. They are generous people and the Government of Nigeria are a generous Government. They have, I know, offered to look into the various cases put up to them on compassionate grounds. However, I should have thought that it would be very much better, if and when there is a funded scheme, for Her Majesty's Government to take over the fund entirely. Surely we should not treat our former servants as forgotten people. They worked before the war on lower salary scales and at a time when there was no paludrine, no air conditioning and very little refrigeration.
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Conditions were very much worse then than they are today, but they occupied positions of even greater authority.
I believe that the people of this country would like to see justice done and would welcome some arrangement with Colonial Governments. The necessary increases could surely be shared in some way. Any negotiations that there may be should not be dragged out indefinitely for, in a few years' time, the bulk of those badly treated pensioners will be dead.
5.40 p.m.
Mr. H. Hynd: This is one of those happy occasions when both sides of the House are largely in agreement. Apparently, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, from the Ruling which you have just given I am prohibited from raising the main point which I wanted to raise, namely, to regret with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he was not able to include within the Bill anything for railway superannuitants.
It is generally understood that these people are in a specially difficult position, and, as you know, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I have had a Motion on the Order Paper on this matter for some time and I have also been trying to raise the subject on the Adjournment ever since December last year.
[That this House, being of opinion that exceptional hardship has resulted to British Railways superannuitants, many of whom are not in receipt of National Insurance benefits, in a period of declining money values, calls upon Her Majesty's Government to bring forward proposals for the alleviation of this hardship.]
I say good luck to the many and varied classes included in the Schedule and I hope that the further improvements envisaged by the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) will be brought about, because since the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1956, the cost of living has gone up from 103 to 110, and something ought to be done. The £that was worth 20s. in 1951 is now worth only 15s. 2d.
The hon. Lady the Member for Tyne-mouth (Dame Irene Ward) has often quoted what the Prime Minister said at a certain conference in 1947. He said:
"It is the pensioner, the retired man, the people on fixed or nearly fixed incomes, who have borne the burden … We have a clear

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duty to those sections of our people who have not shared in this general prosperity and we intend to discharge it."
The Bill goes some way towards fulfilling that pledge, but every argument that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other hon. Members on both sides have used applies to certain other people as well as the people embraced within the Schedule to the Bill.
Dealing with the scope of the Bill, I submit that there is purely a technical difference between various classes of workers some of whom are officially and technically regarded 'as public servants while others are not. Is the railwayman any less a public service man than the postman or the fireman? It is only be cause the form under which the railways are run under public ownership is different from the way in which the Post Office is run under public ownership that we have the difficulty that led you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to give the Ruling which you did. Some of these other classes have more difficulties than civil servants, teachers, policemen and others whom we have been discussing because some of them did not get any consolidation of their war-time earnings, and some of them were exempted from compulsory National Insurance until 1948. They therefore did not qualify for the State retirement pension.
Some of these people are existing on pitifully small pensions. I am not in a position to speak with first-hand knowledge about civil servants—that will be done by my hon. Friend later on, no doubt but I can speak from my knowledge of railway servants and say that if the civil service pensions are anything like as small as the pensions on which railway superannuitants have to exist, they need this percentage increase at the present time. I am a member of the Transport Salaried Staffs Association, but I have no interest to declare because I no longer belong to the superannuation fund. In fact, the superannuation fund to which I belong pays no supplements at all.
The history of this is simple. Applications have been made time and time again for those people to whom the Chancellor referred. Meetings have been held with the Minister, but all that the Minister can tell us is that he is in communication with the British Transport
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Commission. Since then, however, the British Transport Commission has not come forward at all.
I am sorry that the hon. Member for Heston and Isleworth (Mr. Reader Harris) is not here, because I know he is interested in the subject. He showed me a letter which he received from the Chancellor a few days ago in which the right hon. Gentleman said:
"When exercising their"—
that is, the British Transport Commission—
"discretion in this most difficult matter they must equate the difficulties of the superannuitants with the very large deficit at which the Commission are at present operating."
This is rather a curious argument—at least, I think so. It cannot be argued that those classes of people who are deservedly getting pension increases in every case belong to services that are showing a financial profit. If we are going to consider whether a profit or a deficit is being incurred by a particular service, I do not know where we will get to, but the Schedule would be very much shorter than it is at the present time. That point ought to be wiped out of consideration and the moral obligation should be recognised.
In introducing the Bill the Chancellor said that other nationalised industries have shown their awareness of this matter and, in some cases, have made provision for it. It is unfortunately true that whilst some of the nationalised industries have made fairly generous provision the railways have not felt able to do so. This is an injustice that must be remedied.
Thank you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for allowing me a certain amount of rope despite the Ruling that you gave, but I think you will agree that it is impossible for the House to consider a Bill of this kind without having in mind those classes that have been referred to, particularly the railway superannuitants. I hope something will be done either in the Bill or in some other way.
5.46 p.m.
Lady Gammans: I am very glad to have this opportunity of speaking for a few moments. For many years I lived amongst and knew personally the people whose affairs we are discussing today. I have a great admiration for

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the spirit that they always bring to their work. They are loyal and anonymous servants of the State and community, and this is so whether they serve in this country or overseas. Whichever Government is in power they give the same loyal service and carry out and make workable the laws that we make in this House. At home, in the Welfare State, they have made it possible for us to develop the country as we have done.
I know from personal experience that in the Commonwealth the civil servants have played a leading and very vital part in the guidance and education to eventual self-government of the emerging young nationals who have come along to swell the wonderful community of nations in the Commonwealth.
Without the sometimes dedicated service that has been mentioned, the Commonwealth would not have advanced to the position in which it is today. It is because I have such admiration for these fellow countrymen and women of ours, and for the way that they have carried out their work in the past and are doing so at present, that I welcome this Bill to increase their pensions.
I realise that this is just one more step in a long succession of such Bills, but our responsibility is very great to these men and women, and we should do all in our power to bring their pensions into line with the times. By the very nature of their service they cannot speak for themselves and for that reason alone our responsibility is all the greater.
I know from experience how wrapped up these people are in their work. Whether they are serving at home or abroad they feel that they are doing a real service. It is our duty to see that in their retirement they do not suffer in comparison with those around them who have been successful in other fields, and whose very success and prosperity has been made possible and very greatly helped by this background of good work by civil servants in all grades and in all Departments both at home and overseas.
I hope, therefore, that we shall be as generous as possible in adjusting these pensions and so ensuring that, in their years of retirement after a lifetime of forty years or more of honourable service, these people are not embittered.
5.50 p.m.
Mrs. Eirene White: We do not often hear the hon. Lady intervening in our debates, but I am sure that we have all been moved by her most sympathetic reference to the civil servants of the Crown. From family experience I know what inflation can do to a Civil Service pension. My father retired from the Cabinet Office in 1930 and lived to a ripe old age, until 1955. Had he been dependent upon his Civil Service pension he would have had neither comfort nor dignity in his old age. Fortunately, his mental and physical powers were so well maintained that he was able to continue a full-time job until he was 75. But anyone who knows at first hand what inflation has done to Civil Service pensions will be glad that, in the Bill, we are taking some steps to improve the situation of our public servants.
Nevertheless, I feel that this is a pusillanimous Bill. The time has come when the House should accept a much greater degree of responsibility for the well-being of public servants. I stand four-square for parity. The Chancellor has said that difficulties are involved, and we must accept that a precise calculation cannot be made in every instance, when great changes have taken place in the structure of a certain service or Department since a particular person retired. But the Chancellor also rightly remarked that these difficulties are not the main objection to accepting the principle of parity.
The right hon. Gentleman said that to implement this principle in broad lines would cost £55 million, as compared with about £11 million provided for in the Bill. But the extra £44 million which would have to be covered is not a frightening sum, in terms of our national economy. I would remind the Financial Secretary that if the Government decided to forgo the 2d. which has been taken off the price of beer—which might encourage Mr. Clore——
Mr. Simon: The hon. Lady may allow me to remind her, in return, that she has already acquiesced in that proposal in Committee on the Finance Bill.
Mrs. White: If we did not acquiesce we would have no control over what would be done with the resulting money. This is one way in which the money might be used.

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I cannot help feeling that the country would have been very much happier in its conscience if that money had been used for some such purpose as to secure parity of pensions for our public servants. Even with the improvements which we are hoping to make as a result of the Bill there will still be many people who retired many years ago who will be in very difficult circumstances in their extreme old age.
I can think of several elderly women—retired teachers—in my constituency who are in this position. I can think of a former headmistress of an infants' school who was one of the best teachers ever to have been found in the county—somebody for whom everyone would have a great regard. Not long ago she wrote to me describing her circumstances, which seemed to me to be deplorable. She retired when salaries of people in her position were very low compared with what they are today.
In this connection I think especially of women's salaries, and how low they used to be in some of these occupations. We realise that there are some elderly women who have, somehow or other, to eke out a very small income and who feel that they have not had a fair deal in comparison with their younger colleagues who are retiring now and are benefiting by increases of salary and also in the approach to equal pay. We ought to face the problem of trying to equate the pensions we pay to those who retired in the past to the pensions to be given to persons retiring at present.
The Chancellor mentioned one other objection. He said that it would make an even greater disparity between persons who retired on pensions and those who were trying to live off small fixed incomes. We fully accept that; that is one of the reasons why hon. Members on this side of the House are anxious to have an adequate superannuation scheme which would ensure that far fewer persons, if any, were obliged to live entirely upon small investment incomes in future.
I do not want to go too widely into the various aspects of this matter, but there is another problem which the community will have to face some day or other. It is a problem, again, to which hon. Members on this side have paid some attention, and which they are working on at
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present. It is the question of preserving some measure the purchasing power of small savings. Whatever we may think about small savings, the cyclic trend is inflationary—sometimes a little more, and sometimes a little less. The cyclic trend in any industrial society is inflationary. Therefore, we are deluding ourselves if we suppose that this will be the last Bill of this kind that we shall have to introduce, and that we can escape this recurring problem of a fall in the value of pensions or savings.
The time has come for the country to face the problem and to deal with it adequately, instead of making these piecemeal efforts, time and again, in order to try to catch up with events. It seems absurd that in 1956 we had one Act and that only three years later we are discussing another. We should have sufficient responsibility and intelligence to deal with this matter in a much more comprehensive way.
During the course of the debate it has become quite clear that many of us are concerned with classes of pensioner whom we think ought to have been included, or whom we would have liked to be included in such a Measure as this. The Chancellor of the Exchequer devoted lengthy passages in his speech to discussing the problems both of railway pensioners and colonial civil servants. I would not wish to go into any detail on either of those matters, because there seems to be a little doubt about their being in order, but I have here a letter addressed on behalf of the Minister of Transport to the Council of Railway Superannuitants of North Wales, dated 22nd May last, in which the Minister says that the Commission has examined the question of a further increase in railway pensions but has been obliged to declare against it on the ground of cost. The letter goes on to say that the Minister has accepted the Commission's decision.
So, clearly, the Minister is accepting responsibility for this standstill in railway pensions. Had he not accepted the decision, presumably he would have done something about it. Therefore at least we are entitled to go this far and say, as some of my hon. Friends have said, and as the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) also said, that we feel most strongly that this group of public servants—because, after all, the

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railwaymen are public servants—have had a very raw deal. We feel it a matter of justice that they should have adequate pensions, and if the British Transport Commission, for quite other reasons, is not able itself to meet this financial obligation, we in this House should urge the Government to take some responsibility on our behalf.
I think that the same argument applies to the colonial civil servants who are not included in this Bill. Some are included. Those who worked in India, Burma, Pakistan and Palestine are included, but there are others who are not. I strongly support the plea of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Tilney) particularly on behalf of some of the West African and other civil servants. In some instances such civil servants and the widows and orphans of their colleagues are in a very bad state.
I have here a statement that there are six colonial Governments which have not increased the pensions for widows and orphans since 1947. There are a number of others who have made quite inadequate increases. Representations on this matter have been made to the Prime Minister, indicating the very considerable discrepancies between pensions received by former colonial civil servants, who have given comparable service both in rank and length of service, or their dependants. I feel that one cannot waive the obligation to these men and women. They were recruited as servants of the Crown and we should recognise some obligation for the deficiencies.
I strongly urge the Government to make some more satisfactory arrangements in the future, particularly as there are other countries in the Commonwealth approaching independence over whom we shall have no further jurisdiction if we fail to make satisfactory pension arrangements at the outset. I think that we are fully entitled to express the hope that something more should be done and to let the Government know that there is a strong feeling about these classes of persons.
I should like some assurance about another class not included in the Bill, those who receive Civil List pensions; men and women distinguished in the field or arts and learning, and their dependants. I know that some very desirable increases have been made in recent years, but in
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this country we are not over-generous to those who have made their living in the arts or in learning. Again, I hope that we shall express the view that they, too, should have their pensions examined so that when we congratulate ourselves, as the Government have done so constantly, on the prosperous state of our affairs, we may make certain that at least we share that prosperity with those who have reached an honourable old age.
6.5 p.m.
Vice-Admiral John Hughes Hallett: The hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) closed her speech by referring, as have other hon. Members, to certain categories of persons who, perhaps, ought to have been included in the Bill but are not. I do not wish to labour that point, but should like to mention one category and ask a question of my hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary. There is one small category of pensioners whose position appears to be in considerable doubt. I refer to the former municipal transport workers who, at one time, were paid by the various local government authorities. For the purpose of information, I wish to ask whether or not they are included in this Bill, or whether they will have to await some action by the nationalised industries.
Earlier in her speech the hon. Member for Flint, East came out hot and strong for the principle of parity and I shall refer to that later in my own speech. But first I wish to join with those hon. Members on both sides of the House who have congratulated the Government on introducing the Bill. If it is not out of order for me to do so, I should like to congratulate the Government not only on having introduced the Bill, but on having managed the nation's finances in such a manner that it is possible to introduce a Measure of this nature in a year which has been marked by very substantial reductions in taxation.
Despite the modest manner in which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor opened the debate, I have reached the opinion that this is by far the most comprehensive pensions increase Measure yet introduced. It goes quite a long way to restoring to those veteran servants of the Crown something of the standard of living to which they looked forward during their working years. Perhaps I

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might, in passing, comment that surely there can be no doubt that the Crown pensioners as a whole were the next in the queue for some sort of concession.
After all, compared with the progress made by the wage-earning population since the war, or compared with the National Insurance pensioners and, even more relevant, compared with their own younger colleagues who are retiring now, they have fared very badly indeed. In particular, they were heavily hit in the earlier post-war years when the rise in the cost of living was somewhat steeper and—I do not wish to make a party point of his—for reasons which we all understand, the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1947, was necessarily very much more restricted in what it did than were the Acts which followed it.
Indeed, at that time there was an idea—again I say this without wishing to be provocative—which has died hard among public service pensioners that the party opposite was less sympathetic to their cause than perhaps were we on this side of the House. I have been delighted to observe what I think is a welcome change of opinion in this matter quite recently. After all, I think I am right in saying that even the great comprehensive Labour plan for superannuation—"National Superannuation,"—which covered the whole field of superannuation, never mentioned the case of the Crown pensioners from beginning to end—there was not even a footnote about them.
Of course, it is true that some of them would have benefited by the rise in the National Insurance pension which was promised, but by no means all of them. A point which is often forgotten when we consider the case of the Crown pensioners is that very many of the older ones are outside the National Insurance pension scheme altogether and, therefore, do not stand to receive any benefits, and have not received any benefits from the increases made in those pensions.
I was therefore, particularly interested, when I ventured to press my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence on 19th November last on the subject of reviewing the pensions of those who had already retired from the public service, that no less a person than the right hon.
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Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) intervened and said:
"Is it not the fact that the contract originally entered into has been falsified by events, and, therefore, should not the contract be reviewed and refreshed in the light of those events? Why should we allow inflation, whoever may be responsible for it, to victimise individuals who made a contract with the State and who are now suffering from the changed circumstances?"
Later, the right hon. Gentleman said:
"May I be allowed to follow this up? The contract is not for a figure of money but for a standard of living represented by the money.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th November, 1958; Vol. 595, c. 1123–4.]
I only regret that the right hon. Gentleman did not have more to say in the preparation of Labour's plan for superannuation, because those sentiments certainly were not to be found in that document so far as this group of pensioners was concerned.
Grateful though I was at the time for that sentiment, I must now say that I do not agree with the principle that pensions, whether under National Insurance or the pensions that we are considering in the Bill, should be linked rigidly to the cost of living. I am sure that the Government are right to reject that idea. We tried it for a period after the First World War and, for a variety of reasons which many hon. Members will recall, the idea proved a failure. Suppose the idea which was put forward so attractively by the right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall), for the Opposition, were adopted. He said—I paraphrase his words—that the pension of the older pensioners should be brought up until it would buy what it would have bought when those pensioners first retired.
Mrs. White: No doubt the hon. Gentleman will agree that there are two ways of looking at this matter. One is the link with the cost of living and the other is parity with pensions in comparable occupations at the present time.
Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: I want to deal, first, with the proposition that the pension should be linked to the cost of living. If the idea to which I referred were adopted, we should find that most of the older pensioners would have their pensions increased to a figure substantially in excess of the pensions of those retiring now. The difference would be even more striking in the Fighting Services than in the Civil Service. It would

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be a difference quite big enough to cause the greatest discontent and it could not be justified for a moment.
As the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East reminded us, if we are to have an automatic link it is far better to achieve it by the principle of parity. That has always been the aim of the pension societies, but it has never been particularly popular with Crown servants who are still serving. They feel that any such principle would make it much more difficult for them to get subsequent increases. Of course, they are quite right. I have, therefore, often wondered whether we are correct in thinking that this principle would, in practice, turn out to be inflationary if applied.
On balance, I support the Government in not going for the principle of parity, on grounds of cost and for various other reasons which were given by my right hon. Friend in opening the debate. The Bill seems to go a surprisingly long way towards parity of pensions, much further than I had thought, judging from the figures I have seen in the various tables produced by pension societies. On the whole, the surprising thing is that a Measure which goes such a long way towards bringing pensions into a position of parity should have such a low cost of about £11 million a year. That figure compares with the £55 million which the Grigg Committee told us in its Report would be the cost of full parity. At the time I thought that perhaps the Grigg Committee had been led up the garden path by Treasury witnesses in order to frighten it off making any recommendation about parity.
However, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer repeated this figure when he opened the debate. There must be some misunderstanding about the figure. It may be that the £55 million assumes that the 60-year rule is dropped as well. I cannot believe that this Measure, which goes such a long way towards establishing what the pension societies want will cost only one-fifth of what the whole would cost. It seems a mystery.
However that may be, the Conservative Government can at least claim that since they have been in power, from October, 1951, successive Pensions (Increase) Acts have more than compensated for the rise in the cost of living during those past
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seven and a half years. That is something for which the Government can take credit. No one questions the justice or the humanity that has prompted those increases. The older Crown pensioners can be pardoned for having thought at one time that they were forgotten in the various improvements made in the past few years. Their patience has been rewarded and justice has to a large extent been done for them.
For public service pensioners as a whole, the Bill, read in conjunction with earlier Pensions (Increase) Acts, contains one important lesson which I hope will not be lost on them. It is that Governments of either party will always treat Crown pensioners as a whole—treat them alike—and that there is very little useful purpose served by lobbying for any particular group or section of pensioners. I am sure that this is the right principle and that it should be maintained. In this connection I regret the continuing need to make separate, though parallel, provision for the Fighting Services. Had this Measure contained a Clause to end the constitutional difference between the methods by which those two sets of pensioners are paid, so that they would be dealt with together, I would have most warmly welcomed it.
At this point perhaps I might refer briefly to several details which have already been touched upon. There has been pressure from the various pension societies for the ante-dating of the Bill to make it come into operation at an earlier date. I cannot support that suggestion. In principle, the ante-dating of wages or pension increases is to be avoided. One recognises that there are occasions where ante-dating is unavoidable, but as a general principle we should not put everybody to the enormous labour of calculating the increases back to a date a month or two earlier than that proposed in the Bill.
This Pensions (Increase) Bill follows the practice of previous Acts, and confines the increases to pensioners who have reached the age of 60. We are told in the Financial and Explanatory Memorandum that the provision which is to be made for the Fighting Services will be on parallel lines. Therefore, we can safely assume that members of the Fighting Services—who are affected more by this restriction than are civil pensioners—will not get their pension increases until

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they reach the age of 60. We can also safely assume that there will be the usual agitation to change this restriction and to allow them to have the pension increases at once.
The only point upon which I differ from my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) is that I do not support this agitation. It would be wrong in principle to pay the increased pensions to comparatively young men in their 50's or even 40's. It is better that they, like the rest of the Crown-servant population, should wait until they are 60. In passing, I would ask the Government to be consistent on this point, because what is sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gosling as well. We have the promise of future revisions of pensions. When existing pensions are raised, as they probably will be, surely these pensioners might also wait until the age of 60 before they get increases. That might save the taxpayer a very considerable sum of money in the years to come.
Reference to people who retire young and do not immediately qualify for these increases brings me to the point I want to make about letting them know what their new pension will be. I was delighted to hear the Chancellor say that this was to be done. He was referring, I presume, to all the categories of pensioners referred to directly in the Bill itself. If, without going beyond the bounds of order, I may put in a word for them, I hope that this principle will also be applied to pensioners in the Fighting Services who are far more affected by this particular provision and, in many cases, perhaps have ten or fifteen years to wait before the pension changes.
In conclusion, I say that these successive Measures to increase pensions have a wider lesson for the country as a whole, particularly for those who continue to accept inflation as something which is inevitable— if not indeed desirable to a certain extent. The House will remember that in the first Report of the Cohen Committee it was pointed out that in the long run political pressure from millions of retired people would compel the Government of the day to compensate them for falls in the value of the currency. This pressure, of course, has been to some extent responsible for the present Measure.
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There is no doubt, moreover, that private firms will be obliged, wherever they can afford it, to follow the lead of the Government—some have anticipated the Government—in these matters and make corresponding increases. Yet even when that is done, we will have to face the fact that there are very large numbers of elderly people who have done their own saving during their lives and cannot be helped by this Measure, or any other Measure that could be introduced.
I therefore hope greatly that this will indeed prove to be the last Pensions (Increase) Bill which it is necessary to introduce within the lifetime of any hon. Member in the House today. I hope that future Governments will realise, as do the present Government—and I hope industry will also realise, too—that there is only one fair way to distribute the benefits of increased productivity, and so on. That is by lowering prices rather than by raising wages, pensions, or whatever it may be. If we really are to double the standard of living in the next generation, let it be done by halving prices. If that policy is followed, surely the pressure of the campaigns for higher wages will diminish and the force behind the campaigns for higher pensions will slowly fade away. I suggest that no one who has the general interest of the country at heart will regret their passing.
6.25 p.m.
Mr. W. R. Williams: The hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) has covered a very wide field. Had he been talking about the Army in particular I might have been able to follow him but when he talks about the Navy I am completely lost—I am lost at sea. Therefore, he will excuse me if I do not follow him on some aspects of his argument today.
I must disagree, however, on the last expression of hope which the hon. and gallant Gentleman put forward, that this will be the last pensions increase Measure to come before the House. I think he is very much too hopeful on the one hand and, on the other, there is a purpose to be served by the Chancellor and Government reviewing from time to time the situation of people who retire from active work in industry or the public services.
One of the most pleasing tendencies of modern political life is that all political

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parties are now coming to the opinion that everything possible must be done to narrow the wide gap between people who have retired from work and those who are in work. All the schemes which the various parties are considering try to narrow that gap, recognising as we all do that the prosperity which present workers are enjoying is due in no small measure to the activities, work, effort and inventiveness of those who have now retired.
Therefore, while I go a long way with the hon. and gallant Member and should not like to make the cost of living the only criterion for review, it still has to be considered. We cannot ignore it, because it decides what goes into the basket when we go to the shops and how much money can come from one's purse to pay for what is in the basket. We must not only review these pensions and superannuation schemes with a view to ensuring that so far as possible people do not suffer hardship because of inflationary tendencies, but also to see whether they can share in any higher prosperity which the country as a whole is enjoying at any given moment. Not only must we make sure that these people do not suffer hardship, but, so far as lies in our power, we must see that they share in the good things and in the prosperity that may come. If the mind of the hon. and gallant Member is travelling in that direction, for what it is worth I endorse his sentiments.
Coming to the Bill, I think this has been an excellent debate. I declare my interest straight away. Although I am not a Government pensioner, I have been actively associated with the Civil Service for so many years that I am obviously interested and must argue in favour of civil servants getting a square deal. Therefore, I welcome this further effort on the part of the Government to adjust the pension to the cost of living position. That is all the Bill is doing. There is no suggestion of seeking parity in any form. I am not sure that I agree with the question of parity in the form in which it has been discussed today.
There is something in the suggestion made by the hon. and gallant Member that it becomes a difficult matter of negotiation if trade unions in asking for an improvement in wages or salaries based on an improvement or expansion of work have at the same time to be "fag-ended" by people who were in the service thirty years ago and whose claim
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for additional pension would be a corollary to an increase in wages claimed by the union. That would be completely impracticable from the point of view of many trade unions. I have been wondering what would happen if I had to apply parity for the people I had the privilege to represent in the Post Office and assign that parity among workers in the new grades and those who retired some years ago from sorting clerks and telegraphists grades. Certain work was done by one grade which was not done by the other. It would be virtually impossible for any trade union to try to work on the assumption that we could find parity in that way.
It must be remembered that local authorities are involved in the Bill. In thanking the Chancellor for the £6 million which will be provided under the Bill, we must remember the contribution made by local authorities where they are financing it. I am sorry that my right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) had to complain about the treatment accorded to local authority associations in connection with these negotiations. That complaint has been repeated from another quarter. I sincerely hope that if there have been any difficulties of that sort, some effort will be made to make sure that people who have to pay some of the money, as local authorities have to pay on this occasion, will be given reasonable time in which to consider the effect of legislation upon their financial position.
Good employers, including local authorities and the Government, have from time to time and in varying degrees recognised hardship and distress and have sought to provide a measure of relief. We ought to make it clear, not so much for the benefit of hon. Members as for the benefit of those outside the House, that we are in no way improving the basic pension of any civil servant or teacher or anybody else. The basic pensions remain as they are. What we are trying to do is to extend their value towards the demands made at present on the purses of those receiving basic pensions.
In four efforts, on which we ought to commend the House, there have been varying Measures of relief. Each of those Measures, in its own way and its own time, has made some contribution towards the removal of hardship and

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distress. As a result of those four Acts many pensioners have been receiving assistance.
The big change which has occurred with the introduction of the Bill is that we have passed from the criterion of absolute hardship to that of relative hardship. We should be very pleased about that. I have always fought hard in the House and outside for the man on the small pension to receive as much as possible in order to relieve hardship. Among postmen and other members of the Union of Post Office Workers, with which I have been associated, I have found many in real distress because of the changes in their affairs due to inflation throughout the world. Nevertheless, I have also had regard to the man higher up the scale who was denied his entitlement. Although one cannot say that it was a legal entitlement, he was certainly morally entitled to a full pension.
I agree that we should be looking after the interests of the lower income groups and the men on small pensions, but I am equally interested to ensure that justice is done to those in the middle and higher ranges, because it is recalled to my mind that whenever I had to take cases to arbitration courts on behalf of those whom I represented in the Union of Post Office Workers, and whenever I asked for more money for them, I was always presented with the counter argument, "They have pensions which are reasonable and which are calculated at the value of 12½ per cent. of their income, and they have security at the end of their service". Ever since I have been in the House I have failed to hear a more illogical argument than that which has denied to these people that to which they were fully entitled as a condition of their contract in the Civil Service or the Post Office. The right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) is not in the Chamber. If he were, I am sure that he would express himself entirely in sympathy with that point of view, because I know that he has taken that view on other occasions. In so far as the Bill goes a little way from the criterion of absolute hardship and towards the criterion of relative hardship, I entirely approve of it.
There are many other hon. Members who wish to speak in the debate and I
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must therefore condense my remaining remarks. One of the two main features of the Bill with which I am satisfied is that which provides for the first time for increases to be calculated by applying the percentages to the annual rate of pension and not to the basic pension. That is a big advance on anything which we have had up to now. I congratulate the Chancellor on making what I regard as a very substantial improvement. I have had an example quoted to me of the result of that change. A person awarded a pension of £91 in 1939 will receive an increase of £19 10s. under the Regulations following the previous Acts by which increases were calculated on basic pensions. The proposed 12 per cent. would produce only £10 18s. 6d. To put it another way, to produce £19 10s. under the present method would require an increase of about 21 per cent. I therefore think that the principle included for the first time in the Bill is a substantial improvement in the conditions of the pensioners.
I am very pleased that there is an escalator Clause. The figure of 12 per cent. deals in a logical and rational way with those who have been retired the longest. After all, the others have had benefits from increases in their basic salaries and wages, whereas some of those who have been retired for a long time have had no compensation worth mentioning.
I do not know why a figure of 12 per cent. has been chosen. Perhaps the chancellor explained that in his speech and I missed the explanation, but I cannot remember any reason having been advanced for a figure of 12 per cent. A man I knew well many years ago—he is now getting quite old—has suggested to me very substantial increases in those figures. He has said, "Anybody who retired not later than March, 1940, should have 25 per cent. more, the next group should have 22 per cent. and the next group 20 per cent." Like the Chancellor, he has given no reason for those figures. Both he and the Chancellor seem to be guessing at a figure. Perhaps the Financial Secretary will give us some logical argument why 12 per cent. is the figure chosen in the Bill.
Mr. Amory: I hope that the hon. Member will not split the difference.
Mr. Williams: For the man to whom I have referred and his colleagues it would be a great asset if we split the difference between 12 and 25 per cent. That would be a reasonable compromise. If the Chancellor puts that suggestion to me I will see whether we cannot put down an Amendment in Committee to meet his views. I am very glad that there is the escalator Clause, because it brings benefits in the direction which most hon. Members would like to see.
I am glad that the Chancellor is abolishing the ceiling for the same reason that I advanced before. I saw no reason for saying to a retired person that he was entitled to an increase of about £250 on his pension, but would receive only £100. Having taken my standard of the officer who had retired on his full pension, I have never ascribed to the £100 ceiling, and I am glad that the ceiling is being abolished.
I have been advised by some experts who get in touch with us on these different Bills that the effect of the ceiling restriction in previous Acts is, however, perpetuated by the introduction of the new system of a percentage increase on basic pension plus earlier increases, unless the Government are willing to make the abolition of ceiling retrospective. Perhaps the Financial Secretary will deal with that problem. It seems a reasonable statement. I feel sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) and other hon. Members who may be on the Committee will be only too pleased to join with me in tabling a suitable Amendment. It is no use deciding, on the one hand, to abolish a ceiling if, on the other hand, the Government make it impossible for that to take place.
I wish to say one word about the review, simply because the Chancellor has returned to the House. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will forgive a very brief repetition of a point I made earlier. I believe that the Chancellor should take note of the suggestion made by the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey that these reviews cannot just be dropped now; they must be continued, because the pitch has not been cleared, as I hope to show. I want the Chancellor to take note of my point. The Chancellor must not only ensure that pensioners receive something like a
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reasonable amount of money to meet their commitments. That is in the form of compensation for the rising cost of living. From time to time, as a good Chancellor, he must be prepared to review the situation nationally to ensure that the advantages of productivity and automation and the advantages which are being enjoyed by workers generally as a result of prosperity are in some way or another shared by retired people. I commend that to the Chancellor. The right hon. Gentleman will go down in history as a very progressive Chancellor if he listens to that very good advice.
One other practical point arises out of this review. As I understand the position, no man who retires after 31st March, 1957, comes within the scope of the Bill. A man who retired on 1st April, 1957, is drawing a pension 6 per cent. higher than his 1954 salary would have warranted, while the cost of living has risen by 20 per cent. We have not completed the job in the Bill. There must be an early review, because these cases will be repeated in the future. I cannot speak for the Forces or for teachers, but in the Civil Service the pension is based on an average of the last three years. Therefore, if the man who retired on 1st April, 1957, has lost in the ratio of 6 per cent. to 20 per cent. obviously his case ought to be reviewed in a year or two, Will the Chancellor consider having a review in 1961?
I hope that the cost of living is stabilised. I have never believed that it is in the interests of workers anywhere that we should have wage claims chasing high costs of living. So long as the Chancellor can stabilise the cost of living there will be no need for wage claims arising from this cause. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give serious consideration to my suggestion that there should be a review at least by 1961.
Finally, I wish to emphasise the point made by the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey. Some anomalous cases have been brought to the notice of my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby and myself. I have been told of the case of a postmaster who was due to retire, but who wanted to continue. He was encouraged to carry on, but in a subordinate grade. I disagree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman's statement that a man should carry on in a high

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grade until he is 78 and nearly dropping dead, while the other fellows coming along behind him receive no promotion. When a man has been accepted into a subordinate grade of that sort I do not think that he should be penalised in his pension because he has stepped in to assist the Department with which he was associated. This man has suffered. He has pestered—I use the word advisedly—my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby and myself for the best part of three years. We thought that we had caught the Treasury on one leg in 1956. I still believe that we did, but they went back on a promise which they made to us.
I sincerely hope that the Chancellor and the Financial Secretary will look at this case. The question of date is involved here, not the money which the man was receiving at the time. If he had retired at the original date he would have received a substantial amount more in pension than he is receiving at present. I am prepared to send the particulars to the Chancellor. It is a small matter affecting perhaps only a few individuals, but it should be cleared up once and for all. It might easily be done in Committee.
I am very glad to give my personal approval to most of the provisions in the Bill and to wish it a very urgent passage through the House.
6.47 p.m.
Mr. Richard Sharples: I am very glad to be able to follow the hon. Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. W. R. Williams), who speaks with very great knowledge and sympathy in these matters. I find myself in almost complete agreement with everything that he said. The House will particularly wish to take note of his remarks about parity and the difficulties which exist in trying to achieve that object.
The hon. Member's speech was different from previous speeches we heard from the opposite benches, because he did not accept the inevitability of a rise in the cost of living. I was especially glad about that, because I do not accept it as inevitable. I share the hope expressed by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, in opening the debate, that we shall be able to conquer this rise which persisted almost continuously from the end of the war to about twelve months ago.
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I was not able to understand the figures given by the hon. Member towards the end of his speech in relation to the man who retired in 1957. I hope that when my hon. and learned Friend replies to the debate he will be able to sort it out for me.
I am very glad to be able to join hon. Members on both sides of the House in welcoming the Bill. It is a particularly good Bill, and the Government are to be congratulated on it. I think that we now finally see the end of any suggestion of a means test, which was originally ruled out in the 1956 Act. In this Bill, not only has the means test not been resurrected, but the £100 limit on pensions that can be earned has also been removed.
Secondly, the Bill is to be welcomed because it gives the greatest help to those who have been longest in retirement. There are a very large number of retired civil servants in my constituency—many of them in the late 70's and in the 80's—and they have, perhaps, suffered much greater hardship in these post-war years than have others. I am thinking of those who retired some years before the war. They have seen their standard of living drop considerably. I especially welcome the fact that the escalator Clause, which takes into account the increases given in previous Acts by both Governments, gives the comparatively greatest increase to those who have been longest in retirement.
I also welcome the Bill because although, as my right hon. Friend very fairly pointed out, it does not go the whole way towards restoring the loss in the value of money that has taken place in the post-war years, it goes a long way towards doing so—and a great deal further than did previous Acts.
The hon. Member for Openshaw mentioned the higher civil servants, and I, too, should like to refer to them. One does not hear much mention made of them. For one reason or other, the higher civil servants have not benefited to the same extent as have others under previous Acts of this nature. The principle in previous Acts, I know, has always been to give first priority to the relief of hardship, but now that we have emerged from that phase there is an especial obligation upon any Government to treat, as far as possible, all pensioners, irrespective of their rank or the salary they were drawing on

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retirement, equally in the maintenance of the value of their pension.
The effect of the £100 limit in the 1956 Act has already been mentioned but, of course, the top-grade civil servants who retired after 31st December, 1947, were excluded entirely from the benefits of that Act. The effect of that exclusion is carried forward into this Bill because, although they will get, if they retired before 1952, the full 12 per cent. increase, they suffer as a result of not receiving the increase in pension bestowed by the 1956 Act. They are, therefore, at a disadvantage compared with their colleagues who may not, perhaps, have reached the same high rank.
I recall that when the 1956 Bill was being debated, the then Financial Secretary made particular reference to this exclusion. He did not base his case entirely on giving priority to hardship. His main point in excluding these pensioners from that Bill was that the senior ranks in the Civil Service had not received rises in salary since 1951. Of course, very shortly after the Bill was enacted, the senior ranks of the Civil Service did, quite rightly, receive quite substantial rises in salary. Therefore, from that moment, that argument became somewhat invalid. I do not want to press my right hon. Friend further on this matter, but perhaps he will give an assurance that he has considered it and will bear in mind the obligation that the Government owes to those who have reached the highest ranks in the Civil Service, and have carried the greatest load of responsibility in days past.
My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Tilney) very forcefully presented the case of those pensioners who receive their pensions from colonial Governments. As I do not want to stray outside the rules of order, I will only say that I very strongly support what he said, and I was very glad to notice my right hon. Friend's remarks on that subject when it was raised at the beginning of the debate.
Clause 7—the Interpretation Clause—states that
"the appointed day" means the earliest day after the passing of this Act which is the first day of a calendar month;"
I am sure that the whole House hopes that the Bill will have a speedy passage, and that the appointed day will be
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reached very soon. However, I would ask my right hon. Friend to remember that, in many cases, this Bill deals with people who are in what might be described in the evening of life—some of them are in the late 70's and in the 80's—and the matter of one month or another means quite a lot to them. If it should become possible for my right hon. Friend at a later stage of the Bill to be able to forecast the appointed day and, perhaps, thereby put a certain number of these people out of their anxiety, I am sure that it would be appreciated by the House as a whole.
Taking the Bill together with the other Measures that the Government are introducing, I think that the Government have gone a very long way towards meeting their obligations to those who have served Governments and local authorities so well in the past.
6.58 p.m.
Mr. G. A. Pargiter: An alternative title to the Bill might well be a "Bill of Restitution". It is, in fact, a recognition by the Government—and one that they might possibly include in the Preamble—of their failure during their term of office to combat inflation, in spite of the promises made from time to time from the Front Bench opposite, and to give some compensation for that failure. That, in effect, is what the Bill really is. An increase from 1952 of a further 12 per cent. in addition to the other advances made is a not inconsiderable figure when one considers values of money, and it is the extent to which the currency has been debased during the life of this Government.
The Government now come forward and suggest that as part of the Budget proposals they are distributing largesse in this form, and haw good and kind they are. Of course, it is nothing of the kind. It is a partial recognition of the Government's failure and should be treated as such and not as an act of generosity on their part. The Government should have seen to it that the contractual obligations that were entered into were reasonably enforceable and reasonable from the point of view of their application. The fact is that the Government's policies which they have pursued from time to time have shown that that has not been so. That, however, is not what I am mainly concerned with.

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This Bill departs very considerably in principle from previous Bills and Acts of this kind. Previous Acts were a recognition that there was a contractual liability and that there were hardship cases to be met which could only be met in the form of increases in the lower range of pensions. The abolition of the ceiling is a recognition by the Government that differentials should be restored. We know that to be the Government's policy any way. The wider the differential the better they like it. There should always, in their view, be a lot at the bottom and a few at the top. This Bill, while not devising that particular policy, does in fact show that there is a considerable difference between this and previous Pensions (Increase) Bills. I am not saying that that is necessarily bad or good. I am only saying that this is not merely another Bill in the line of succession of previous Bills on this matter.
In view of the fact that other bodies are concerned as well as the Treasury, it would have been as well if they had been consulted to some extent before the Government's proposals were put forward. I want to enter the very strongest possible protest on behalf of the local authorities at the failure of the Government adequately to consult them before inflicting on them an additional burden of £2½ million, because that is what this means to the local authorities.
While there may have been a case previously on the block grant for the Government to have said, "At least we are in this to a fairly considerable extent", there is no guarantee at all that any part of this increase which will fall on the local authorities will in fact be met by the Exchequer. There is a halt promise—but nothing is contained in the Bill that this may be one of the items that will fall to be considered when the block grant is reconsidered, but at this stage there is an additional flat rate burden of £2½ million imposed on the local authorities, and they were given less than seven days' notice of consultation before this burden was inflicted on them.
The local authorities were called on very cavalierly to meet on a particular date—no alternative date was given—the Financial Secretary, not to discuss anything with regard to the principles contained in the Bill, but merely to be told that they had a limited period—a few
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days—in which to give their considered views through the local authority associations to the Government on this matter. This was in spite of the promises which the Government had made previously that although they had done this sort of thing before it could not occur again. It has happened in precisely the same way again, and I am not sure that the general notice given was not rather less than previously.
There is no particular reason why the Bill should be tied to the Budget. Acts of Parliament are passed from time to time which increase liability on the Treasury and, in fact, this is done regularly throughout the whole course of a year. But, no, it had to be included as part of the Chancellor's largesse and part of the distribution of a benevolent Government giving away money. On this occasion they are giving away £2½ million of ratepayers' money, but they are not saying anything about that. Nor is there any indication that if the ratepayers have to meet the burden which the Government have insisted that the local authorities should pay the Government will meet part of the cost. That is what I am particularly concerned with. No doubt we shall be told that this will not occur again and that the Government will make certain that there is adequate consultation. We were told on this occasion that there could not be consultation because this was top secret and had to be included in the Budget. I do not accept that. We were then told that we had only so many days' notice and it was urgent to get the Bill before the House—we are not disputing that—because the Government's policy made it absolutely necessary to increase the income of pensioners.
It seems to me that the people who have to find the money, even to the extent of £2½ million out of a total of £8 million, have some right to be heard. They have some right to say what they think of the proposals both in detail and in particular. If the Government had not wanted to do it in that way, the best thing that they could have done would have been to put it in two forms. First, they could have introduced a Bill for the pensions for which they are responsible, and then they could have negotiated quite separately with the local authorities on the pensions with which the local authorities are concerned.

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This might be a cumbersome procedure, but it is an alternative which would ensure adequate representations from the local authorities being considered.
I am not arguing that the local authorities are opposed to these increases. They have indicated that they are not opposed to increases, but that there are certain matters of detail about which they are not happy. They are totally unhappy about the way in which this matter has been dealt with and they have asked me to make the strongest protest on their behalf against what has been done.
7.6 p.m.
Mr. Denzil Freeth: I think that it is unfortunate that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Southall (Mr. Pargiter) was not in his place when my hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary, in answer to a remark from the other side of the House, came to the Dispatch Box and went into detail concerning his own part in calling the consultations with the local authorities. Indeed, I think that one can only say that it was a pity that the hon. Gentleman was not here for some of our earlier debate because, had he been here, he would have recognised the very discordant note which he has struck in our discussions this evening.
Mr. Pargiter: I have a perfect right to express my view irrespective of whether or not the Financial Secretary has expressed his.
Mr. Freeth: I would not dispute the hon. Gentleman's right to express his views because, like Voltaire, I believe that I would even fight to enable him to do so.
I welcome the Bill, not least as the son of a civil servant who retired over twenty years ago, because it goes some way to implement the pledge which the Prime Minister gave at Brighton in 1957 and which was quoted by the hon. Gentleman for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd) earlier. My right hon. Friend, as the House will recall, stated that we had a clear duty to those sections of our people who had not shared in the rising prosperity and that the Government intended to discharge their duty.
Of course, some people have private means—savings which they can invest—and the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) spoke a few words
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about the unfortunate effect that income from savings could have when it buys less and less every year. Some people have been able to keep up with the falling purchasing power of the £ by wise investment in equity shares. Many others have not, and some, by the terms of trusts, and so on, cannot invest in equities and have to remain in gilt-edged.
I think that civil servants and those in public service in general have a particular right to be looked after by the State, not least because for the work that they do they are in their working lives very underpaid, and for the responsibility that they shoulder they receive salaries which bear little comparison with the salaries that would be paid to them in commerce or in industry. Therefore, during their working lives they have very little opportunity to save. It is one of our main moral duties to see that during their period of retirement these people are paid a pension or retired pay which bears some relation in purchasing power to the standard of life which they expected to be able to enjoy when they retired.
I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and, indeed, all the Treasury Ministers have stopped talking the unutterable nonsense about a contract of service bearing some relation to a percentage of the final salary or the average of the final few years' salary. That is absolute rubbish. I was a little saddened that at one moment my right hon. Friend appeared to be echoing that suggestion. However, if I may say so, the general tenor of his speech followed a far more progressive line of thought.
When people join one of the Services of the Crown and they think of their pension, they certainly do not think of it in money terms. They think of it in terms of what that money will buy. I hope that the fact that we have once and for all done away with the ceiling, or the limit, to the increases which are allowed, means that this Bill is a final nail in the coffin of the invalid argument of the Treasury.
We have helped public servants who have retired in the past, under Coalition, Socialist and Conservative Governments. In 1955, the Government gave a promise in their General Election manifesto. They said that insurance pensioners, war pensioners and public service pensioners could be sure that the Conservative Government would continue to give the most

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constant attention to their interests and needs. I believe that that is a pledge which the Government could do more towards fulfilling. Admittedly, in 1956 we gave further increases for all pensions granted before December, 1947, and for pensions granted between that date and 31st March, 1952, where the final salary had been under £1,500 a year.
I am very glad to see that that figure of £1,500 is not repeated in this Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Sharples) said, these senior civil servants are still suffering from the fact that no increase was given in 1956, because the percentage in this Bill is calculated upon the pension receivable upon retirement plus any increases which have been made since.
Like everyone else who has spoken, I rejoice that the Opposition welcome this provision. I welcome the fact that the £100 limit has gone out of the window. We are, in fact, to quote the hon. Member for Southall, widening out the concertina a little. It had got a little too close together. It is one of the things which nearly always happen to retired people in times of inflation. It is, unfortunately, true, whatever figures may be quoted, that the retirement pensioner, or the person on retirement pay from the Armed Forces, is still substantially worse off than the person retiring today with equivalent rank or in a roughly equivalent grade. The Chancellor said that this Bill was designed to relieve hardship and those who have suffered most acutely. I would prefer to think of justice than hardship in relation to these people, because it seems to me that if we merely consider hardship we shall neglect justice—and justice will relieve hardship.
There has been a lot of discussion earlier about postmen. The right hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) said that the 1939 postman had had a 100 per cent. increase in money terms. That is still less than the pension which a postman in similar circumstances would get if he retired today. The 1939 postman gets about £180 after the passing of this Bill; if he retired today he would be getting £235. It is worth noting, in passing, that the purchasing power which he would need to maintain the 1939 standard of living would be not £235, but between £250 and £270. The fact remains that today his income in monetary terms
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is doubled but that has meant a severe sacrifice in purchasing power.
However, I do not think that the postman is typical, because he comes at the bottom of the pension scale and, therefore, he has benefited from every single Pensions (Increase) Act. If we go a little further up the income scale we do not find people who are receiving twice the pension they were receiving in 1939. The Civil Service principal who retired in 1939 received £550 and he is now getting £691. When the Bill is passed and he gets the 12 per cent. increase he will be receiving £774—the 1939 pension plus not 100 per cent., but 40 per cent. I should have thought that this was a far more general picture than the picture of the postman. Most people will be getting roughly half as much again in money terms as they were receiving in 1939. Yet the cost of living has risen not by 50 per cent., but by 200 per cent.—three times what it was pre-war.
I regard myself as a supporter of the parity school of thought. The hon. Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. W. R. Williams) dealt with the difficulties of this scheme in some detail. I was very pleased that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said that he did not consider the practical difficulties in a scheme of parity to be insuperable. I fully realise that some of the serving civil servants may not be in favour of it because, as one of my hon. Friends said, they fear that a scheme of parity would result in the Treasury being less willing to grant increases in salary. That may be, but one day they, too, may be pensioners and they may find that a parity scheme would be of great benefit to them.
After all, what the pensioner wants is the knowledge that whatever happens to prices—and prices to a considerable degree are the responsibility of the Government in power: they can be the total responsibility of nobody else—he will remain able to enjoy those comforts to which he has looked forward and to which he thought he would be entitled on retirement.
I do not understand this figure of £55 million which has been quoted. Does it include the amount that the local authorities would have to pay, or is it purely a Treasury figure for the central Government? It seems odd, in view of the

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figures that have been quoted, particularly for the earlier pensions—rather selective figures, I thought—that £55 million is so far ahead of £11 million. I think that the answer is that the figures which have been quoted to show how, under the Bill, we almost approach parity, are too selective and the vast range of civil servants will be drawing pensions two-thirds as much as are drawn by persons retiring today in a similar grade. I do not believe that the pensioner would be very worried about the grade in which he was placed. I think he would be far more keen to know that his pension was definitely linked to a pension on a level or standard where it moved in line with the cost of living. I think that he would like that just as much as, if not more than, the suggestion of the right hon. Member for Colne Valley that in some way, based upon a retail price index, the purchasing power of the pension should be assured.
It is possible to be too clever with one's employees' money. It is possible to be too clever in not paying people what they are really worth. If we wish to continue to recruit the top brains for the Civil Service and other Government services, we must pay people something which will enable them to have a decent level of comfort throughout their working lives and in retirement. They will be overworked for the whole of their working lives and they will be underpaid for the whole of their working lives, but they will have the security of the pension. Unless the Government in some way guarantees to protect the purchasing power of the pension, the civil servant will have nothing to look forward to and we shall not have the best people volunteering for the Service.
This is true not only of those civil servants whose pensions are at the moment the direct responsibility of the United Kingdom Government. It is particularly true, also, I should have thought, of those colonial Civil Service pensioners who now find themselves in the awkward position of having their pensions paid by a Government over which they have no control at all through the ballot box because that Government is in Ghana and they happen to be here. I suggest that my right hon. Friend has some kind of moral obligation to see that these people do not lag behind in the
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purchasing power of their pensions, even if this Government have to pay the difference.
Inflation is the main enemy of the second half of the twentieth century, of the post-war world, just as deflation was the main enemy in the inter-war period. Quite frankly, I am not immensely optimistic about inflation having been killed. I do not think that it is an enemy which one kills. There will be many skirmishes and battles in the war, and I should not be at all surprised if inflation won some of them. In an economy pledged to full employment, to a high standard of social services and to a high proportion of national expenditure devoted to defence, and without a currency linked to gold, I do not see how we can stop prices rising from time to time.
I believe it is essential, therefore, to make a definite effort to fix the pension of those who have retired in some kind of relation of graded parity with the pensions of those who are retiring today and who will retire in the future. It is only in this way, I believe, that our honour can be satisfied and the right people be attracted to the civil and military services of the Crown.
I have one plea to make to my right hon. Friend about the appointed day. I know that he will say that he will need the co-operation of both sides of the House in this, and I am sure that it will be forthcoming. Could we not make certain that the appointed day, the first day of the calendar month following the Royal Assent being given to the Bill, will be 1st August so that pensioners will not have to wait throughout the long Summer Recess until Parliament reassembles in the autumn?
Like everyone else who has spoken, I heartily support the Bill and I congratulate my right hon. Friend on bringing it in. I do not believe that his work has ended with it. Until we have some method for protecting the pensioner against the falling purchasing power of the £ or the potentially falling purchasing power of the £, we shall not have done our duty to those who have served the State in their working lives.
7.25 p.m.
Mrs. Patricia McLaughlin: I join with those who have spoken in welcoming the Bill. It represents a very determined effort on the part

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of the Government to solve the pension difficulties of those who urgently need something to be done to make their standard of living more equitable and more in keeping with our general standard of life today.
I am sure that the Chancellor has taken into account very carefully all the pressure which has been brought to bear by all manner of public service pensioners who have written to and visited Members of Parliament urging upon them their needs and their rights. I am not quite certain about the percentage increase, and I hope that my right hon. Friend may be able to tell us later exactly what is the position in regard to the 12 per cent. as a maximum which can be offered as a starting point for older pensioners. What would be the cost of increasing this to 15 per cent., and increasing the 10 per cent. to 12 per cent. and the 8 per cent. to, say, 9 per cent.? Although we have heard many reasons for parity or for not having parity, it is obvious that there are many older pensioners today who find it extremely difficult to live.
I will quote as an example the case of a teacher who retired in 1945 on a basic pension of £129. Today, that pension is still under £4 a week. The particular teacher I have in mind is 74 years of age. A 12 per cent. increase of a pension under £4 a week is not a very large amount, and it will not make an enormous difference. Indeed, I should like to think that the 15 per cent. of which I have spoken could be made even higher, although one must remember that this is the taxpayers' money, the country's money, as well as money which has to be found by the local authorities.
We are dealing here with those who find it most difficult to fit into the present pattern of life. There are very many people retiring today who can expect to enjoy a better standard of living than those who have for many years put up with pensions which were far too low as a result of the increased cost of every day necessities. Many of them were public servants who worked all through the war, working in great difficulties. I have in mind particularly teachers who, in some cases, had to take a reduced salary because of evacuation problems and who then took a reduced pension on
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that salary, with the result that today they have a pension paid to them at a level lower than they originally deserved, merely because they played their part in our war-time effort.
It is wonderful to think that the Government have at last done something for all categories of public servants, but we have no right to be complacent. Every time something good is done, of course, there are criticisms. That is healthy. But if we allow ourselves to think that this Bill will solve the problem for all time we shall be entirely mistaken. It will be difficult to balance the rights of the older pensioner with the rights of those who have retired recently, but the recently retired will, in time, be old pensioners themselves. We cannot look ahead to what the situation will be in ten or fifteen years, but we can look at it today.
In this context, I wish to refer especially to one category of pensioners. I am sure there must be a large number of them; otherwise the provision which there is in the Bill would not have been inserted. In Clause 5 (2) there is a proviso that
"nothing in this subsection shall prevent a pension authority making such reduction in the amount of any increase payable under the said provisions to a pensioner as may be necessary to secure, where the pensioner is in receipt of a non-contributory pension under the Old Age Pensions Act, 1936, that he shall receive the greatest possible amount in respect of the increase and the non-contributory pension taken altogether."
This must surely mean that there are people who are at present enjoying—if that be the right word—a pension so low that they require, if they are to have any increase whatever, that their old-age pension itself given to them under the non-contributory pensions Act will have to be altered. There are the really low level pensions which, I feel, could be adjusted more generously than is now suggested.
Secondly, in the Schedules there is a reference to Royal Irish Costabulary pensioners who are to have their pensions increased by the 12 per cent. since they will come under the category of older pensioner because the R.I.C. was disbanded many years ago. There are, however, some constables who feel that they still have not had complete justice. I put it to the Chancellor, now that he has gone so far in pensions, that he might consider

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looking into the problem which has worried members of the Royal Irish Constabulary who were transferred to the Royal Ulster Constabulary and who feel that their compensation at that time, which they looked upon as part of their pension, was not honoured. This is a matter which has been shuttlecocked back and forth between Stormont and Westminster, and it would be very useful if on this occasion something could be said to clarify the position.
We have heard many differing views this afternoon on pensions. We are all agreed that we must try to ensure that the Bill is passed into law as quickly as possible, whatever Amendments or alterations may be discussed in Committee. It is a fine thing to think that we can be so unanimous on that point. On the other hand, whatever happens when the time comes for the Bill to go forward, I feel that of necessity many Amendments will be put forward. I hope that the Chancellor will be able to prevent many of those Amendments being put forward by answering some of the questions which have been put to him and, in particular, to say whether there is any likelihood of his increasing the percentages in the Bill.
Hon. Members opposite and on this side have all said that they will ensure that there is no delay in helping the Bill forward so that the people who have waited so long will get the amount of pension to which they are rightly entitled.
7.31 p.m.
Mr. Walter H. Loveys: It is obvious that there is a considerable measure of agreement on this Bill. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, it is a simple Bill designed to give relief to State pensioners who have suffered so much from rises in the cost of living over the last two decades. As so much has been said with which I entirely agree, and also because I so much agree with the Select Committee on Procedure which suggested that there should be an interval for short speeches to enable back bench Members to take part in the debate, I shall keep the House for only a few minutes.
When I first read the Bill I was very disappointed that the rates were not higher, although I realise that it is not justifiable to link pensions with the cost of living. Also, I was very pleased that the Schedule was so comprehensive. It
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deals with about 400,000 pensioners. If the Service pensioners, who will be rightly included by Prerogative instruments outside the Bill, are included, then it deals with about half a million pensioners. I am, however, disappointed that it does not include superannuated railway workers. I understand that we are not allowed to talk about that matter as it is outside the Bill. I hope that the British Transport Commission will take note of the obvious feeling of the House towards this special class of pensioner.
I have already expressed my disappointment about the rates. It is so easy to say, "Let us give them a little more." We would all like to say that, but we must look at the picture as a whole. Eleven million pounds is not chicken-feed. This is the fourth increase in pensions by the present Government. We all realise from what we have heard this afternoon that the only real way to help pensioners is to stop the rise in the cost of living. At last we have reached a stage where prices have remained steady for twelve months. This is the first time that that has happened since the war. I know that my right hon. Friends dare not suggest that the cost of living may remain steady, but as a back bencher I may be allowed to be a little optimistic and to say that perhaps the cost of living may even go down in the years to come. I realise that that is a very rash statement.
I welcome the Bill. Many of my constituents will be affected by it. I know that many of them will say that the rates should have been higher, but I feel that it is one more step in the right direction to alleviate the difficulties of State pensioners whom it is our duty to help. We are the only people who can help them. If looked at in conjunction with the larger question of the steadying up in the cost of living, it is a real contribution that should be welcomed throughout the country.
7.35 p.m.
Mr. Douglas Houghton: The right hon. Gentleman must be the most congratulated Chancellor of the Exchequer that we have had for some time. He is a very lucky man. He has not had to dish out any of the rough stuff. Almost everything that he does is pleasing to the House. Owing to the more favourable economic position he is

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able this year to reduce taxation, to repay post-war credits on an unparalleled scale and to bring in a Pensions (Increase) Bill which undoubtedly must be commended for what it attempts to do.
I have been associated in one way or another with every Pensions (Increase) Bill except that of 1920. There have been many of them. There were Pensions (Increase) Bills in 1924, 1944, 1947, 1952, 1954 and 1956, and now we have this one. It seems to me that that is a reflection on someone. Perhaps it is a reflection on this House that we have not really settled the problem of how to deal with pensioned public servants in all these years.
That brings me to the first question which I think we must consider, namely, what is the principle of the matter? That is a very difficult question to answer, because we have not had the assistance which is so frequently obtained from outside bodies of great repute and wisdom on matters of this kind. One can turn to the somewhat harsh doctrine in the White Paper of 1954 and the still harsher doctrine of the 1920s. I will not quote paragraph 36 of the White Paper to which reference has been made on several occasions, but it embodied the principle of not protecting our servants against the decline in the value of money. That led to the restriction of increases to lower pensions only, to the introduction of the means test, even including wife's income as well, to ceilings and other limitations upon the benefits of pensions increase legislation.
The Government held to a large part of that doctrine until 1956. It is admitted that a good deal of it was swept away by the 1956 Act, but, as I reminded the Chancellor during his speech, it was the Committee upstairs which improved the 1956 Bill and took out of it a new principle which was then introduced into pensions increase legislation of relating the increase to the length of service rather than to the amount of pension and the date of retirement.
However, these are past events, although I agree with the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Denzil Freeth) that in his speech the Chancellor appeared to repeat in softer tones the doctrine of paragraph 44 of the White Paper of 1954. Certainly he did not replace what was said there with anything different. He said
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it in a way which did not sound so objectionable to current thinking on how we should treat our pensioned public servants. Now, however, I suppose that the 1956 Act and this Bill to a large extent turn the back of the Government upon the literal sense of what was embodied in the 1954 White Paper.
The right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) said that perhaps the 1954 White Paper was now moribund. I do not think that we have completely said goodbye to it and I should have been much happier if the Chancellor had enunciated a fresh principle, something different from the doctrine which said that the fundamental principle of Civil Service pensions is that
"once awarded they are not normally subject to change in either direction"
and that
"it is a principle that should be departed from … only to the extent that severe falls in money values causing real hardship among pensioners may justify special increases—as distinct from revised pensions—where the degree of hardship calls for it."
What is to be the principle of dealing with those who have retired, the purchasing power of whose pensions may fall owing to changed circumstances, and who may be denied a reasonable share in the rise in the national income and in the rise of the standard of life of all those round about them? If we jettison the idea of real hardship as a condition of adjustment of pensions, which the 1956 Act did and the present Bill continues, what principle are we to follow?
I do not think that the cost of living alone is a satisfactory basis on which to adjust these pensions. At best, that would merely restore the purchasing power of the pension to what it was assumed to be at the time the pensioner first received it. That is not enough in times when new amenities and widening horizons of domestic expenditure and of personal enjoyment are all leading to higher demands upon our production and national income in which these pensioners, in common with others, are entitled to share.
The hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) suggested that the real solution was not to increase pensions but to halve prices. It is no good halving the price of a radio set if everybody wants a television. One must bear in mind that new things are now regarded as essential

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parts of personal and domestic expenditure which a few years ago would have been regarded as luxuries or even beyond the scope of many people.
Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett: Why should not television sets be halved in price, also?
Mr. Houghton: One has first to get them at any price before the price can be halved. The hon. and gallant Member appreciates, I believe, the point I am making that the cost of living in its literal and possibly restricted sense would not of itself be a satisfactory guide.
Parity has been mentioned as a simple device for applying a principle to pension increases. My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. W. R. Williams) and the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East have both referred to some of the difficulties of applying this principle. I do not think that it would be insuperable, although there would admittedly be difficulty where duties and grades have changed and where the current standard of pay takes into account the present nature of the work performed and the responsibilities that these servants carry in a field of growing complexity of public administration, public responsibility and duties. It is not easy to relate service today with the more congenial times of years ago. Although I say that it would not be insuperable, it would be difficult to relate existing grades, especially as they may change from time to time in the future, to those in which retired civil servants served years ago. That, however, is something which we can examine in closer detail in Committee.
Bearing in mind the number of times that we have had to do what we are doing today, it is a pity that we are without some considered judgment on this matter. The Priestley Commission on the Civil Service was not asked to do this and felt that some aspects of superannuation were not within its terms of reference. After much consideration and thought, the Commission found a principle for the fixing of Civil Service pay, which in two words was fair comparisons, but it was not required to consider a principle for adjustment of pensions for those who had already retired. It would be useful if the Government were to ask an independent committee to consider this
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matter and to give us the benefit of its advice.
For the time being, we can do little more than approach the matter somewhat ad hoc and see what changes are to be made which will give reasonable justice to those who have retired in past years and whose pensions have now fallen behind what they should be.
Are the increases in the Bill enough? I do not know. We have not been told very much about the increases which are proposed, upon what they are based and why they stop short where they do. Simplicity is written into the Bill very clearly. I will not dissent from any attempt to get a simple solution as we go along, because these complicated matters can be very tiresome. They can be misleading to the pensioners themselves and sometimes they raise a great many false hopes as to what the Bill will do for them. There are a great many misconceptions regarding the proposals in the Bill already.
The figures which have been given by the Treasury illustrating the effect of the Bill show that those who retired years ago are getting a little nearer to those who retired more recently. I am, however, bound to point out that those who retired more recently, in 1957 and 1958, did not have the full benefit of the substantial pay increases that were given to civil servants as a result of the recommendations of the Priestley Commission in 1955 and, in the case of the Higher Civil Service, since that date.
The operation of the three years' average as the basis of calculation of pension in the Civil Service obviously means that a man who retired in the early part of 1957 has his pension calculated on the average of his pay in the three preceding years, which, as I say, would not reflect the current increases given to civil servants in those grades, and the current level of remuneration of the officers themselves. They will retire with a basic pay calculated on the three years' average, lower than what they are actually receiving at the moment. So they start with the disadvantage that the pay upon which their pension is calculated is lower than the pay they are receiving at the time they retire.
If the higher pay at the time of retirement represented some reward for promotion or incremental adjustment or

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something else which in the long term represented a distinct increase in the civil servant's standard of life, one is justified in saying there is no reason why we should calculate pension for the rest of his life on a fortuitous increase in remuneration in real terms towards the end of his service. That is the reason for the averaging principle. In local government, I understand, the average is over five years, not three, which emphasises the point I am making, that there is a backlog of past remuneration on the lower scale which will be a drag on the amount of pension of a civil servant retiring now.
The pay increases which have been given to most of these public servants, local authority people, teachers, civil servants, have not been improvements in their standard of living in real terms. They have been in restitution for the fall in the value of money. They have been paid to them to enable them to maintain the standard of life which they previously had. Therefore, it is a misfortune that the averaging principle subtracts from the compensation given to them in current remuneration when fixing the figure upon which their pension is to be calculated, so that the figures given in the Treasury table for those who retired in 1957 and 1958 are all much lower than the pension which will be payable three years from now to those who will retire in that time.
There was a letter in The Times of 22nd May which illustrated this point very clearly in connection with the principal grade in the Civil Service. The principal with thirty years' service who retired in 1939 now gets a pension of £691. Under the Bill his pension will be increased to £774. Meantime the principal grade in the Civil Service has had a substantial pay increase, so that when those civil servants retire who can get the benefit of the three years' average at the higher rate of pay they are getting now their pension will not be £774 but £1,025.
That illustrates the difference in pension between those who are shortly to retire and those who already have retired. It will soon be visible, and those who retired in 1957 and 1958 are already beginning to feel their sense of grievance. That is why I think it is important to have something much more definite about review in the future.
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That would lead to a suggestion, I think, either that the scale should be recast to take account of these factors or that there should be more specific provisions for review after a period, in order that the fresh gap which will arise can be looked at in the light of the circumstances in a few years' time.
That probably touches on the point which the right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey raised about the operation of the three years' averaging. I think the three years' average was quite justifiably a basis for calculating pension when, as I said a few moments ago, there could be fortuitous rises in pay in the concluding years of service which would scarcely justify reflecting fully in the amount of pension to be received for the rest of the civil servant's lifetime; but when applied to adjustments of pay to compensate for the fall in the value of money there is much less justification for the three years' average.
Another point which has been referred to in the debate is this very vexed and complicated one of those civil servants who go on pension and are re-employed or who formally retire and extend their service either in the same grade or in a lower one. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Openshaw, I could not justify the re-employment or the extension of the service of serving civil servants in all cases in their existing grade or in the grade which they held immediately prior to retirement. There are very many considerations which have to be taken into account, including, of course, age and capacity, as well as matters of promotion of those who follow on, and other questions affecting the interest of the public service.
Most of those who did stay on or who came back believed that they would benefit from so doing in the matter of pension, that if they continued for a few years they would earn an addition to the pension which they had earned up to the time of formal retirement. That was held out as inducement for civil servants to stay on.
Now they find that Clause 2 of the Bill gives them the more favourable of two alternatives, either the basic pension calculated at the time of formal retirement plus the addition for extended service, or the pension which they were

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entitled to at the date of formal retirement plus any increases under the Pensions (Increase) Acts. In some cases I believe it is true that retired officers will find that their pension at the time of formal retirement plus increases is better than if they take their basic pension plus the addition for extended service, thus depriving them of any pension benefit for the period they stay on.
The reply of the Treasury on this difficulty is that it must, of course, be careful not to create an anomaly as between the person who formally retires and stays on or retires and comes back again, and the civil servant who elects to continue as a fully established civil servant not drawing his gratuity and not having his pension calculated at any notional date of retirement. If he stays on his pension will be calculated at the time of eventual retirement and may not necessarily attract any pension increase at all and would put him in a less favourable position than the person who adopts the former course.
That is regarded by the Treasury as anomalous and must be avoided. There is, perhaps, a solution to that, if one has to be found, on these lines, and that would be to regard all civil servants, if they extend their service, as having formally retired at the age at which they were entitled to do so and to treat them all on the same footing to avoid any anomalies as between the two types who stay on.
Then I think it would be the wish of the House to give some reward for those who extend their service. Whether it would mean some reduction in pension increase to take account in some measure of additional pension earned or whether they should have both in full is a matter for argument. I think that we would wish, if we can, to see that those who stay on fulfil their expectation of getting a somewhat bigger pension.
A number of references have been made to the "ceiling". The Chancellor has been congratulated on removing it from the new proposals but, as has been pointed out, the ceiling of 1956 remains built into the scheme. Later we shall wish to consider whether it should not be dismantled entirely. It is perpetuated because the pension increase now is to be given on the total pension payable
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under the 1956 and earlier Acts and since, in a number of cases, the total amount of pension is limited by the ceiling obviously the increase will be correspondingly limited under the Bill. I think that the Chancellor when dealing with the ceiling would wish to get rid of it altogether.
As to the effective date, the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon, North-East said that he was against retrospection. I would remind the House that the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1944, received the Royal Assent on 24th May, 1944. It was back-dated to 31st December, 1943. The Royal Assent was given to the 1947 Act on 18th February, 1947, and that was back-dated to 31st December, 1946. The 1952 Act received the Royal Assent on 1st August, 1952, but that was effective from 30th September, 1952. That was a forward date, but the 1956 Act received the Royal Assent on 12th May, 1956, and was operated from 1st April, 1956. Therefore, there is on the whole a tradition of modest retrospection and I think that most people would expect this Bill, on the precedent of the 1956 Act, to be back-dated to 1st April this year. This is a matter we can look at later on.
The right hon. and learned Member for Chertsey had a few thoughts on the question of review and in earlier debates on Pensions (Increase) Bills I have advanced the view that it is somewhat paradoxical that pay can be settled by negotiation in the public service, in local government as well as central Government service, yet pensions require legislation. The smallest adjustment of pension conditions requires legislation. That seems to be very tiresome and unnecessary. It probably has a history, the House keeping a close watch on sinecure pensions at the hands of the State which were ill-deserved and which in centuries past went to friends and courtiers. Therefore, on the matter of pensions the House keeps a very vigilant eye and a tight control. Is that necessary in these days?
I concede, however, that it may be necessary to have legislation to deal with the responsibilities of local authorities and education authorities in respect of local government service pensions; and since we wish to deal with them altogether and in the same way, I

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recognise that if legislation is necessary for that purpose we had better have it for all. But I think that it is a great pity that the most deserving of public servants who are retired, who have no trade unions to fight their current claims, who have no Civil Service arbitration tribunals to make awards which can almost make the Chancellor blench at the size of them, are denied any remedy except at the hands of the House, dependent on the legislative programme, on the judgment of Ministers, and the mood of the House, and on other pressing claims on Parliamentary time.
I can carry that no further today. It is a very big question and I have referred to it several times. In my view, enabling legislation, giving Her Majesty power by Order in Council to do certain things, would be preferable. The Prerogative instrument is the method by which it is done in the case of Service pensions, and that does not require the attention of the House. I am sure that after a few years only there will be a fresh case to consider in this connection. We ought to prepare for it, either by getting a committee to consider it, to look at the principles and consider a basis on which the House could do justice without incurring debates on principle as well as on method, or by providing some greater facility for dealing with the matter through the processes of legislation or otherwise.
The case for review has been strengthened by the recommendations of the Grigg Committee on Forces pensions. The two-year review mentioned there has certainly captured the imagination of the civilian pensioners, who think that what is good for the Forces pensioners should be good for them. There can be arguments about that, about different considerations, recruitment needs, the transfer from a conscripted to a voluntary Army and so on, but it is something to which the Chancellor should give serious attention.
The only remaining thing to say is that it is a reproach to the House and to the country to see men and women who have served the State long and well living in threadbare retirement. Although many of these retired civil servants, and public servants of all kinds, gave their service in a world that has passed, those of them who survive are having to live
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in the world of today. We should recognise that, and adjust their circumstances to their having a reasonable place in the world of today alongside their erstwhile colleagues in the public services, workers in industry, in commerce and the professions. We should let them feel that they are not neglected public servants of the past.
There are some most distinguished civil servants who are living in circumstances which are bound to move anyone who sees them today. They are deprived of much intellectual enjoyment, and of books, magazines and travel which they were able to enjoy when they were in full-time service. They have still something to contribute to our intellectual life, and certainly to our consideration of the problems of public administration. We wish that they should not feel aggrieved with the country which employed them and feel a constant sense of indignation at the shabby way in which they have been treated by Governments in the past. The Bill removes some blemishes of that past treatment, but in Committee we shall argue that it has not gone far enough and that we have not answered the main question of what is the principle of the matter and what should be the guide for future action in this field.
8.10 p.m.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. J. E. S. Simon): For those of us who have listened to it, this has been an agreeable and an interesting debate. It is agreeable in the first place in that it is always pleasant to have a Treasury Bill generally welcomed by the House, but this seems to me to have been a singularly well-informed debate, drawing on a remarkably wide range of experience of the problems which we have been discussing.
We started by hearing the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) speak with his experience of administering this problem as a former Financial Secretary to the Treasury. We have heard hon. Members speak with experience of the Civil Service. There was the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton), who speaks on these matters with unrivalled experience and authority, if he will allow me to say so, and from whom we have had again today a most excellent

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speech. Then we heard the hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester, Open-shaw (Mr. W. R. Williams), who, again, has had a lifelong experience of considering the problems under review today, and I hope he will allow me to say without offence that he gave us an outstanding contribution.
Then there was the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East (Mrs. White) and my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Denzil Freeth), who are, respectively, the daughter and son of civil servants. Then we heard my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Tilney) and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd), who have been closely associated with certain aspects of this problem. Then we heard the hon. Gentleman the Member for Southall (Mr. Pargiter), who could speak for the local authorities, and whom I had the pleasure of welcoming with the other local authority representatives when I saw them on 14th April.
I hope that I may be allowed to pay a special tribute to the contribution made by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey (Sir L. Heald) and his committee, and to include my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East (Vice-Admiral Hughes Hallett) and my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward), although we have not had the pleasure of a contribution from her today.
A great many suggestions and points have been made, and I know the House will forgive me if I leave some of the details unanswered. Some of them are more appropriate to be considered during the Committee stage, others, even some quite important points, my hon. Friend and I would like to consider further before the Committee stage without adverting to them today. I know that the House will bear with me in that step.
I should like to deal with the challenge made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sowerby, who asked what is the principle of this matter? I myself had great sympathy with his final declaration, as I took it to be, which seemed to be very much in accordance with our national approach to such questions; that is, to say "Well, really, this is not at bottom a matter of principle. We have to try to approach it ad hoc." That is particularly
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the case here, because what one has to do is to weigh two conflicting considerations. Where the balance is struck at any time seems to me to be partly a question of expediency, partly of social climate, partly of the economic situation, and so on; because what we are concerned with here is the responsibility of the Government as an employer.
It is clear that the Government, as an employer, have a twofold responsibility; the first to their employee and the second to the taxpayer who has to find the money. First, then, like any other good employer there is a duty to the employee. I do not think that it is necessary, nor would it be particularly fruitful, to try to ascertain how much of that duty is promoted by self-interest and how much by more elevated principles. I think that good employers have always felt a sense of personal obligation towards their employees, which arises from the very relationship of dependence. But, as so often, altruism is not only the best morality but the best policy, and the employer who cherishes his staff and is careful of their interests and welfare will readily attract the best employees. His organisation will be a happier, and, therefore, probably a better functioning one. I think that that was implicit in the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke. That is because dependence is really inter-dependence, and in a complex economic society like ours there is no doubt that we are members of one another.
Nor do these considerations apply only to the staff actually in employment. No employee will work his best, under however felicitous conditions, if he feels that at the end of his service he will be thrown on the scrapheap. Nor will any humane and responsible employer willingly contemplate such a state of affairs. For this reason we have seen in recent years considerable growth in occupational retirement schemes. The best employer does not regard himself as absolved from further responsibility even by the setting up of the most generous occupational retirement scheme. He should remain solicitous lest rising prices erode the value of the pension in such a way as to cause unconscionable hardship. Certainly, that is the attitude, as we know, of quite a few private employers.
For many years the State has sought by its conduct to rank among the best

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employers. Naturally, again, this has not been confined to the provision of welfare for those actually serving. Public service occupational pension schemes were amongst the first in the field, and they are still among the best. And when inflation cast its ugly shadow on the lives of the pensioners, the State has sought to mitigate their hardship by a series of Pensions (Increase) Bills. That aspect was put very strongly by my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke.
That is one aspect. The Government have another responsibility as an employer. They must never forget that it is not their own money which they spend. Broadly speaking, the Government have no money of their own. They have to raise the funds they need by taxation, and this taxation falls on many whose means are as straitened as those of the public service pensioners and, indeed, who 'have no protection from the effects of inflation. The Government, in this respect, must, therefore, act with humane responsibility to their former employees, trying to shield them from hardship. But they owe an equal responsibility to those who have to find the money, remembering that this has to come from many who are themselves suffering hardship from which the Government, unfortunately, have no means of shielding them; that is to say, no means save by what should be a principal object of policy, as my right hon. and learned Friend pointed out, namely, so to conduct our affairs as to avoid the evils of inflation.
It is for these reasons among others, as my right hon. Friend explained, that the claim of the Public Service Pensioners' Council for so-called parity—that is to say, by one means or another raising past pensions to the level paid to those now currently retiring in similar grades at the expense of others whose means have equally been eaten away by rising prices —is to my mind unacceptable. It takes cognisance of only one aspect of the Government's responsibility.
There is one other aspect of which it would be a mistake to lose sight, and that is the purely budgetary question of the cost. It costs £55 million, as my right hon. Friend pointed out. I have been asked by a number of hon. Members for the break-down of that figure. Of that figure the State and local government would have to find £40 million, of which about
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£10 million would fall on the rates, and the Services would pay the other £15 million. It is not really such a remarkable increase when one considers the recent increases in Service pay, sharp increases, and also such measures as we have seen in recent years as the introduction in gradual stages of equal pay between the sexes.
Therefore, even apart from the question of cost, it seems to me, for the reasons which I have laid before the House, that parity is unacceptable in principle. There was a division of opinion which ran clearly across the House, with my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke in an unholy alliance with the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East; and I do not think that other hon. Members, including those who have great experience of negotiation in this field, were prepared to accept it.
It seemed to me that the point put by the hon. Member for Openshaw was really repeating in other words what had been said by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East, that it would have very serious repercussions on wage negotiations which one ought to think out more carefully. The hon. Member for Openshaw used a striking phrase about "fag-ending wage claims", and he emphasised the physical impossibility of reconciling past grades with present grades and so on.
It seems to me that, quite apart from those difficulties, the principle is not one that the Government could accept, because it takes cognisance only of the responsibility of the State as employer to its employees without taking equal cognisance of the State's responsibility to the taxpayer who has to find the money.
Nevertheless, not only have we thought it right to bring forward a Pensions (Increase) Bill at this stage, but the Bill that we have brought forward is in many respects, as hon. Members have pointed out, considerably more favourable to the public service pensioner than any previous Measure. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East said that it is by far the most comprehensive Pensions (Increase) Bill yet put forward, and there is a great deal to be said for that point of view.
In the first place, the cost of living has risen less than before any previous Pensions (Increase) Bill. The figures were

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given by my right hon. Friend. Since April, 1956, when the latest Act took effect, the Retail Price Index has risen by only about 7 per cent. Compared with the rises during the intervals between the existing Acts, this is a low figure. Between October, 1952, when the 1952 Act took effect, and February, 1956, when the 1956 Act was presented, the index rose by about 11 per cent. Between December, 1946, when the 1947 Act took effect, and June, 1952, when the 1952 Act was presented, it rose by no less than 37 per cent.
I see the right hon. Member for Colne Valley getting restive. I hope that I shall not add to his restiveness, nor indeed breach the harmony of today's proceedings, if I mention that the cost of living had already risen by more than 28 per cent. in October, 1951, when his Government left office without introducing any Measure of their own.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: That was in the period after 1947.
Mr. Simon: Yes, that was the period after 1947.
Another matter which one must bear in mind in relation to the cost of living is that this Measure is brought forward in conditions far more favourable than they were for previous Measures. We must remember that in October, 1951, the cost of living was rising rapidly. It was to some extent again rising rapidly in 1956. Today, mercifully, it has been stable for a year.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. and learned Gentleman, particularly as he has been so kind over this, but it is fallacious to talk of the 1956 Act taking effect in 1956 with the underlying assumption that it included all additions to the cost of living up to that date. The 1956 Act, as I understood it and still understand it, took into account only the cost of living figures up to 1951.
Mr. Simon: That is so. I think, though, that I am comparing like with like.
That brings me to my next point, the second respect in which this is a very favourable Bill to the public service pensioner. In general, the increases proposed in the Bill go closer than on previous occasions to reinstating the value of the pension after erosion by rising prices.
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My hon. and gallant Friend made that point very clearly and forcibly, and I think that is the obverse to the point that has just been made by the right hon. Gentleman.
Thirdly, the percentage increase is not, as heretofore, on the basic pension but on the pension as increased under previous Pensions (Increase) Acts. Both my right hon. and learned Friend and the hon. Member for Openshaw have emphasised the significance of that. Its effect is that the pensioners who benefit most from the Bill are automatically—I emphasise that—in general those who retire earliest and those whose pension is smallest, and that is so because it is they who were the principal beneficiaries of the earlier Pensions (Increase) Acts. Indeed, their basic pension is increased not by the 12 per cent. which figures as the maximum under the Bill but by as much as 20 per cent. or more.
Fourthly, there is no upper limit under the Bill on the amount of increase which is payable. That has been generally welcomed throughout the House. There has not been a dissenting voice. The hon. Member for Openshaw put it as having passed from the criterion of absolute hardship to the criterion of relative hardship. I think that that is absolutely true, particularly when one considers that it supervenes on the abolition of the means test in the 1956 Act.
Fifthly, there is no earlier cut-off date in respect of higher pensions. That, again, is an aspect of the same point which was made by the hon. Member for Openshaw. "But", says the hon. Member for Sowerby, "although you are abolishing the upper limit you have built the ceiling of 1956 into the scheme". Both the hon. Member for Openshaw and my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Sharpies) suggested that we ought to make the abolition of the upper limit retrospective.
I put it to the House that if we did that we should automatically disturb the rather more than nugatory weighting, which is intentional under this scheme, in favour of the smallest and oldest pensions. It was put to me very strongly by the deputation from the Trades Union Congress, which I had the pleasure and honour of receiving, that it was essential so to frame a scheme that those

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whose pensions had been most eroded by inflation and rising prices, and particularly those whose means were smallest, should have particular consideration.
Previously, there was an upper limit. Previously, there was a means test. Previously, the pensions increases had been particularly directed to the older pensions and to the smaller pensions. The deputation pointed out that if on top of that we gave pensions increases on the increases, there would be a weighting additional to the escalator in favour of the older and smaller pensions. I am sure that hon. Members will bear that in mind if we discuss this matter in Committee.
Lastly, and I believe of considerable importance, as a result of the general structure of the scheme and the matters I have mentioned, the proposals contained in the Bill are—and I hope that hon. Members will agree with the hon. Member for Sowerby about this—remarkably simple and intelligible considering the complexity of the subject and of some of the previous Bills. Those are the general considerations which I wanted to put before the House.
I want now to deal with one or two specific matters raised in the course of the debate. The right hon. Member for Colne Valley and the hon. Member for Southall mentioned discussions with local authorities. We would certainly have liked to have given more time to local authorities, and I am the first to appreciate that they, like ourselves, were working against the clock. We could not consult them before my right hon. Friend had announced to Parliament what he was proposing to do, which was considered in the context of his Budget proposals, but we took the first opportunity, on the very day of the Budget, to write to local authorities and to outline the scheme which we had in mind, and to invite them to a preliminary discussion.
I met them myself on 14th April and made it clear that that was only a preliminary discussion. Indeed, I apologised for the very short notice which they had been given, and I pointed out that we desired, as I knew that they would desire, that any pension increases which resulted from the scheme should be in the hands of the pensioners as soon
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as possible. I know that they shared that wish. I know that they would have welcomed more time, but they recognised the desirability of bringing the matter to a reasonably quick fruition, and I should like to say how grateful I am to the representatives of the local authorities for complying with the very tight timetable and for all the help and cooperation which their representatives have given to us.
The hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Dr. King) posed a question about the general grant to local authorities. Of the total of £2·34 million in the table which my right hon. Friend gave, about £0·4 million would be attributable to services covered by the general grant payable to local authorities. As such, it would fall to be taken into account in the periodic settlements of the totals of the general grant, but the associations with whom we discussed these matters have agreed that the amount involved will be too small to warrant a reopening of the settlement for the first period. As hon. Members know, that will cover the years 1959–60 and 1960–61. They made the point that if that settlement had to be reopened for other reasons this expenditure would be relevant to the reconsideration, and I formally accepted that position.
The next particular issue which was raised during the course of the debate was, who was included or excluded under this Bill? A number of hon. Members raised the question of the railway super-annuitants. They were my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey, the hon. Member for Itchen, the hon. Member for Accrington—in a speech which either showed great flexibility of the rules of order, or great accommodation in the occupant of the Chair, as it seemed to me—the hon. Member for Flint, East and my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Loveys). The matter was dealt with conclusively by my right hon. Friend in opening the debate.
What my right hon. Friend said was that we deal exclusively in this Bill with pensioners who have earned their pensions in the public services and who are paid their pensions from public funds. Pensioners of industries now nationalised are not paid from public funds and it would be anomalous for the Bill to cover

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them. Moreover, it would be unnecessary because the nationalised industries do not need additional statutory power of this kind for the payment of pension increases. The essential point, however, is that any improvement of pensions in this way is primarily a matter for the boards concerned.
In the end, it comes to this, that the general practice which is the foundation of the status of the nationalised industries is that each industry acts as an independent commercial undertaking. To write into the present Bill a proposal for an increase in the pensions of railway super-annuitants would not only be inappropriate for the reasons given by my right hon. Friend, but would actually be inconsistent with the freedom and responsibility of the industries and the boards concerned as commercial undertakings.
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Croydon, North-East raised a particular problem, the question of old municipal transport workers. Certain employees of local authority tramways were taken over by the London Passenger Transport Board, now the London Transport Executive, and I take it that it was to that group he was referring. The point is that those people ceased to be local authority employees when the tramways were taken over. They are no longer covered by the provisions of the Pensions (Increase) Acts relating to local government. They elected to continue as members of their former employers' superannuation schemes, but nevertheless they are not appropriately the subject of a statutory Pensions (Increase) Act such as this Bill will become.
The hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East asked me about the Civil List pensioners. I understand that these pensions are reviewed annually in the light of the pensioners' needs. Technically, the increases granted are new pensions and particulars of them are laid before the House. The short point is that they, again, are not appropriate subjects of a statutory Pensions (Increase) Act—and I see that that proposition has the approbation of the right hon. Member for Colne Valley, who, no doubt, had to consider the matter from time to time when in office.
A number of hon. Members raised the question of the ex-colonial servant, including
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my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chertsey, my hon. Friend the Member for Wavertree, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey (Lady Gammans), my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam, my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke and the hon. Lady the Member for Flint, East. It seems to me that in the end the plea made, particularly with such force by my hon. Friend the Member for Wavertree, is a request that the United Kingdom Government should take the responsibility for giving pensions increases in any case where the colonial Government failed to bring their scales up to the United Kingdom scales, and that this should also apply to those Governments which were recently colonial.
I understand very well the point and the force with which the argument was pursued, but I would leave this thought with those hon. Members who raised the question; if we were to do that, does any hon. Member doubt that no other colonial or ex-colonial Government abroad would ever give a pension increase? Not only would it be a question of ourselves giving the pension increase in the place of Governments which so far have defaulted—if I may use that term in the sense which will be understood by the House and without imputing any ill faith—but there would obviously be a considerable additional likelihood that any other colonial Government or Government of a former Colony, which so far has shouldered its responsibility in the way we like to see it shouldered, would feel it very unfair to have to continue to do so when other Governments received the advantage of the United Kingdom paying the increase.
Most overseas Governments are at least as generous as Her Majesty's Government in this matter. We realise very well that some territories have so far felt themselves unable to award increases on widows' and orphans' pensions as favourably as those they would pay on officers' pensions, and indeed that some of those widows whose pensions were awarded many years ago are to our knowledge suffering hardship. The Government have that question very much in mind, but it is not appropriately dealt with in a Bill which deals only with increases in pensions paid by Her Majesty's Government. I can assure hon. Members that the Government have and will keep this matter under review.

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My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mrs. McLaughlin) asked about the Royal Irish Constabulary. As my hon. Friend knows this is a very long-standing problem which has been considered on many occasions. It is an extraordinarily difficult problem and, again, I shall simply run away from it, if my hon. Friend does not mind, by saying that it is not a matter which is appropriate to consider on the Bill. It is a basic pension problem rather than a problem of pension increase.
I will deal now with a question raised by the right hon. Member for Colne Valley, the hon. Member for Openshaw and the hon. Member for Sowerby. They asked why the maximum increase should be 12 per cent. and not more. That was echoed in a number of speeches. It really springs from the history of pension increases. In almost every combination of Service and rank at some point or other in the long span of years which we are considering there are cases of earlier pensions exceeding some at least of the later ones. As always, it is not the beneficiary who minds that. It is the one whose pension is exceeded. He feels resentment.
It is not a question, as one hon. Member put it, of the anomalies being always taken against the pensioner. These are two pensioners side by side, and obviously the one who has retired later, possibly on a higher salary, feels resentment if an earlier pensioner has retired with, as a result of Pensions (Increase) Acts, a larger pension. Every pension increase must accentuate some such anomaly. I was very glad that hon. Members recognised that a great many anomalies had been mitigated by the scheme we have put forward.
If we increased too many of the earlier pensions too far above the level of the comparable ones beginning later, the anomaly would be accentuated and the later pensioners would have a very real cause for complaint. I give as an example a civil servant retiring as a clerical officer after twenty years' service, which is by no means a rare case. If he retired in 1947 his pension is already 16 per cent. larger than that of his colleague who retired in 1952. Under the Bill it becomes 19 per cent. higher. If we raised the upper end of the scale above the 12 per cent. proposed in the Bill we should widen the gap still further. That is the reason why we have stepped it in the way we have.
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Although it sounds mercenary, as a Treasury Minister I am bound to tell the House that there is also a question of cost. An increase of 14 per cent., instead of the 12 per cent. for which the Bill provides, would cost about £1 million. Personally, I could not regard that expenditure as justified when, as I have ventured to explain, the plan would lose rather than gain in equity as between pensioners retiring at different times over the period with which we are concerned.
Finally, I will say a word about Clause 2, about which there has been some misapprehension. We will certainly consider the scheme suggested by the hon. Member for Sowerby for dealing with the basic pension. Perhaps we can return to that in Committee. But I would venture to emphasise that Clause 2 is purely a relieving Clause. It is solely in the interest of the pensioner. The reason why it is necessary is that the Bill prescribes a diminishing scale of increases after March, 1952. The result is that the later a pension begins after that date the less the pensioner benefits under the Bill.
Unless there was a special provision, as we have it in Clause 2, a pensioner who postponed the beginning of his pension by becoming re-employed would run the risk that his new pension, enlarged by the additional service plus the lower rate of increase, might be smaller than his original pension enlarged by the higher rate of increase. Therefore, it is necessary to have this provision in order to ensure that the pensioner who postpones his retirement does not suffer in that way. I hope that that explanation will satisfy the House that the proposal is a reasonable one.
The hon. Member for Sowerby commended a modest retrospection in regard to the appointed day. I myself prefer the challenge that was given to us by my hon. Friends the Members for Sutton and Cheam and for Basingstoke, that we should proceed with all the celerity at our command and ensure that the appointed day is 1st August—in other words, this side of the Summer Recess.
It only remains for me, once again, to thank hon. Members for the very agreeable welcome they have given to the Bill, and for all the constructive thoughts and suggestions that have been put forward. I can assure the House that we

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will consider them carefully before the Committee stage. I know from what has been said that it is in accordance with the wishes of the House that I now commend the Bill's Second Reading.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 38 (Committal of Bills).

PENSIONS (INCREASE) [MONEY]
[Queen's Recommendation signified.]
Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 84 (Money Committees).
[Sir GORDON TOUCHE in the Chair]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for increases of certain pensions, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament—

A. Of any expenditure by way of—

(a) payments in respect of a pension payable by a Government department; or

(b) any increase in the sums payable tinder any other enactment out of moneys so provided,

which is attributable to any provision of the said Act of the present Session providing for an increase of a pension, being an increase—

(i) determined in accordance with the provisions of that Act by reference to the annual rate of that pension after any increase thereof under, or by reference to increases under, the Pensions (Increase) Acts of 1920, 1924, 1944, 1947, 1952, 1954 and 1956 other than an increase under section six of the said Act of 1956; or

(ii) such as to secure that, where a person who has been in receipt of a pension has completed further service by virtue of which that pension has fallen (or if that service had been terminated by retirement would have fallen) to be re-assessed, that pension and any other pension computed by reference to that pension is not less than it would have been if that further service had not been rendered;

B. Of any increase in the sums payable out of moneys so provided which is attributable to any provision of the said Act of the present Session providing for the Pensions (Increase) Acts of 1920 and 1924 or of 1944 and 1947 to apply to pensions specified in Part I or Part II of the Second Schedule to the Pensions (India, Pakistan and Burma) Act, 1955, as amended;

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C. Of any increase in the sums payable under any other enactment out of moneys so provided which is attributable to any other provision of the said Act of the present Session relating to pensions payable in respect of service in the police, as a special constable, on the civil staff of the metropolitan police, or as a fireman or police fireman.

In this resolution, the expression "pension" has the same meaning as in the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1944.—[Mr. Simon.]
8.53 p.m.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: There are just two questions that I should like to put to either the Chancellor or the Financial Secretary, and I think that both can easily be answered. First, we on this side assume that in Committee it will be possible to debate Amendments to the scales. I do not ask tonight for an assurance that any change that is embodied in Amendments will be accepted, but I think that the Chancellor will agree that it is essential that we should have what I might call "elbow room", and not be "cabin'd, cribb'd, confin'd" by the Money Resolution when we reach the Committee stage. I have looked at the Money Resolution, and I think that the answer to my query is that there will be an allowance for discussion, even of the widest possible kind.
My second question is whether it will also be possible to discuss Clause 2 at large, and possibly make changes to it. The Financial Secretary has just said that the Chancellor and he will, between now and the Committee stage, consider the proposal, for example, put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton). As I read the Money Resolution relating to Clause 2, I am not sure whether it would be possible to make any changes, but doubtless the right hon. Gentleman or the Financial Secretary will be able to tell us.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. J. E. S. Simon): I can answer the first question very easily. The Money Resolution, in accordance with precedent, has been drawn widely enough to permit a discussion and to permit Amendments proposing an increase in the scales laid down in Clause 1. As the right hon. Gentleman surmised, in saying that I am not thereby committing my right hon. Friend to accept any possible Amendment that may be put forward.

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As to the second question, I am very doubtful. It depends on the form of the Amendment that is put forward. As I ventured to point out, Clause 2 is a relieving Clause. The suggestion that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sowerby made was related to a method of calculating the basic pension rather than to any question of a pension increase, so I should not like to give an assurance that any such Amendment would necessarily be in order. We tried to see that the Money Resolution was drawn widely enough to permit a wide discussion on the matter raised in the Bill. It does, I think, go a bit beyond it.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: I was sorry to hear what the Financial Secretary has said. It is, however, what I expected him to say with regard to the reference in the Money Resolution to Clause 2. I have read it very closely more than once, and my own view conforms with what the Financial Secretary has now said.
We have had, and I take it that the Treasury has had, and it is quite obvious that hon. Members opposite have had a number of letters from people who feel aggrieved at this provision. I know that it is a provision which is supposed to be for their benefit but none of them appears to think so. They quote figures which show that they are apparently losing as the result of the provision which was
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made in the 1956 Act and is now reenacted in this Bill. I think that the trouble goes further back, probably to the Superannuation Act, 1834.
I do not know what we can do short of asking the Government to take back the Money Resolution, which I do not suppose for a moment they want to do. It would be useful if, in Committee, we could ventilate this matter, if only to put at rest some of the criticism and bitterness which it has raised among so many people.
Mr. Simon: I do not doubt that we shall be able to have a discussion which will put at rest the quite genuine misapprehensions which have arisen. The fact remains that this is a relieving provision, and I do not doubt that with co-operation across the Committee we shall be able to satisfy all those who take an interest in it that this is a relieving provision. In so far as the right hon. Gentleman may be right when lie says that there may be some trouble arising from the Superannuation Acts themselves, this is not a Bill to amend the Superannuation Acts, and I think, therefore, that I must ask the Committee to approve the Money Resolution in its present form.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported.
Report to be received Tomorrow.

TANGANYIKA
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. J. E. B. Hill.]
9.0 p.m.
Mr. Arthur Skeffington: I am grateful for this opportunity to refer to Tanganyika, although I am sorry to have had to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies to be here on the first night after the Recess. However, as I have been trying to discuss Tanganyika since Easter, I felt that I dare not allow this opportunity to pass, particularly as we shall have a little more time than I anticipated, because this debate has started rather earlier in the evening than either the Under-Secretary or I thought would be the case.
I presume to discuss the problems of this territory because I twice had the good fortune to visit it in the space of nine years. On both of those occasions, and in between, I have tried to maintain contacts with various people, and I think I can claim that I now have a number of friends among all the different inhabitants in the territory. With them, I hope that this territory, which is, next to Nigeria, the largest territory in the Colonial Commonwealth, will make the rapid progress which seems to be possible. In any event, I am sure we shall all agree that Parliament has responsibilities and an interest in this matter and it is right that from time to time on occasions like this we should use the opportunity to discuss the inevitable problems in an emergent territory of this kind.
I want first to touch upon a subject which may not seem of very great consequence but to which I attach some importance, and that is the increasing destruction of the fauna of the territory. There are several aspects of this matter. In the first place, as I mentioned in a Question on 5th May, it is a fact that certain species which we in this country would never regard as vermin, such as the hippopotamus, zebra, wild boar and other animals, are so classified in that territory. The result is that hunting on a very considerable scale has been permitted with consequent destruction, I am informed, to a point almost of extinction in certain parts of the territory.
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Furthermore, so far as these animals are classified as vermin, the methods by which they are either caught or killed are under no supervision at all. It is possible for hunters to be cruel without involving any penal sanction or any concern amongst a considerable number of people. I think this aspect of cruelty is particularly discouraging to people in the territory like Mrs. Slater, who is associated with the Tanganyika Law Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, who have succeeded not only in building a first-class organisation, but in giving to thousands of Africans a crusading zeal about animal welfare. When one considers all the educational work of this organisation on the one hand, and at the same time the cruel methods of hunting which are allowed on the other hand, one sees what an illogical situation exists, and it is a very bad one too.
I am also wandering whether it is necessary to give licences to export thousands of monkeys from this area. I am told that there is a white trader, a Mr. Peters, who pays £2 or £3 a head for every monkey brought to him. We have also heard of what happens sometimes in the transit of these animals, although I am sure this is not generally the case. Hon. Members will probably remember a case involving a whole planeload of monkeys. Even when transport is considered to be desirable, I can remember seeing at Mombasa cages of these wretched creatures waiting to be shipped, and I must say that the expression on their miserable faces was, I thought, a standing reproach to us.
It may be said that it is necessary for the export of these animals to continue because they are needed for medical research. If that is so, we must accept it, but I very much hope that the commercial element, even so, will be taken out of the business. If it is necessary, it should not be a business in which the profit motive plays an important part.
I come now to questions of wider policy, and I wish to refer first to economic developments in the territory. In September, 1957, I heard the late Governor, Lord Twining, point with considerable pride to the expansion which has taken place during the ten years from 1947 to 1957. He was able to show that the production of sisal had increased by 70 per cent., the production of coffee had

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increased by over 30 per cent., of cotton by more than 200 per cent., of tea by nearly 300 per cent., and of tobacco by over 250 per cent. There had been an increase in the amount of shipping coming into Tanganyika harbours from 1,955 million tons to 5,122 million tons—a very considerable increase.
As both the present Governor and the previous Governor admitted in the Legislative Council, this rapid expansion was undoubtedly stimulated by two things. One, of course, was the scheme which has been rather vulgarly called the groundnut scheme. Undoubtedly, this scheme not only brought considerable capital to Tangayika, but it brought also trained personnel, scientists and people skilled in management, some of whom have stayed there. The Parliamentary delegation, of which the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) was the leader on that occasion, will remember meeting some of these people at various places, some very far from the normal centres of life in Tanganyika and doing an excellent job.
I am glad to put once more on the record what I have mentioned on other occasions in the House, that, quite apart from the physical results of the scheme which can be seen today in the ports, railways, hospitals and roads, and in the holdings of the Tanganyika Agricultural Corporation in various parts of Tanganyika where crops are now growing in areas previously desolate and tsetse-ridden, the additional capital and skilled people gave a very great fillip to the territory. I believe that history will probably regard the Overseas Food Corporation scheme as one of the turning points in the economic development of Tanganyika. The other factor which stimulated this rapid advance was the very high price of sisal following the end of the war consequent upon the new needs for sisal and the fact that sisal was an alternative to many of the fibres previously used.
From this increasing tempo of production, of course, the revenues of the territory rose and many of the development schemes so essential to the country were thought and planned and had begun to come into operation. Unfortunately, we now have a different situation. In the current financial year, the people of Tanganyika face a deficit of more than
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£1 million between their revenue and their expenditure.
Mr. Graham Page: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware that the gross product of the Colony is continually rising. Despite low commodity prices, it has risen between 1957 and 1958 from about £162 million to over £168 million. That is a very healthy sign.
Mr. Skeffington: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I was coming to that point. Although there is this deficit, I wonder whether the authorities have been too pessimistic in their forecast, because, as the hon. Gentleman said, there has been a growth in the revenue, and in addition one must remember that when a deficit of £700,000 was forecast for the year 1957–58 there was a surplus at the end of the year of £137,000. I want to say something about the consequences of the anticipated deficiency in a moment. I hope that the figures will not be as bad as have been forecast.
This brings me to my next point. What steps are envisaged now to stimulate production in the more difficult world conditions that exist? What action is being taken to bring in new industries and to get additional capital which undoubtedly the territory must have if it is to make progress socially and which I am sure is necessary if there is to be stability in constitutional development? I believe that there are some plans in relation to the development of the sugar industry. I do not know whether the Minister will be able to give any information on that point. Is there anything yet to report about oil development? I know that one company has spent more than £1 million in the territory in this connection. I am sure that we all hope that Tanganyika will have the success which has been recently reported from Nigeria. Undoubtedly the exploitation of a mineral of that kind would add enormously to the internal resources of the territory.
We are told that Tanganyika is extremely rich in minerals, although many of them are difficult to get at; they are inaccessible. At Dodoma there is one of the finest geological survey units which can be found anywhere in the world. The people on the staff are not only first-class professional men but are devoted to their work. They have

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reported most interesting finds and developments. I wonder how far it has been possible in the last two years for developments to take place, because, again, this is one of the obvious ways in which the ordinary revenues of the territory can be augmented with consequent benefit to its inhabitants.
In dealing with this aspect, I should like to refer to the part which is being played by the co-operative movement. In December, 1957, we had a short discussion in this House about the work which is being done. I suppose that there are few countries in the world where cooperative development has taken place so rapidly and, on the whole, so successfully. I believe that there are now 470 co-operative societies in Tanganyika. That is an increase of sixty-four even since I was there two years ago. There are now more than 300,000 registered members of co-operative societies. That is equal in number to the total labour force employed in Tanganyika. I do not say that they are the same people, but it is an indication of the magnitude of the movement and its growth since the war. Its share capital and reserves are now more than £2 million.
When we discussed this matter in December, 1957, the then Minister was able to confirm that no less than one-fifth of the exports of Tanganyika were through the agency of the co-operative movement. I am sure that Members on both sides of the House believe that this sort of development is ideal for an emerging people, because the idea of a society in which all are members very often fits into the pattern of life to which they are accustomed. They do the work and they share the profit and the dividends. At the same time, the State can ensure that certain protective mechanisms are at work so that it is difficult for the people to be exploited or for their funds to vanish, as sometimes may happen. All this is the ordinary characteristic of a co-operative society that makes it particularly suitable to people who, naturally, have been suspicious sometimes in the past about their own exploitation.
When I was last in Tanganyika, I had discussions with the then Governor about the need for a co-operative union. There are, of course, failures in this movement, as might be expected. Some societies have not had enough experience
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or sufficient financial backing or they want help in policy at an early stage. This is something which it is difficult for a Government Department to do, although the co-operative advisers in the co-operative department of the Tanganyika Government have done a first-class job.
With a movement of this size and with the potentialities that obviously exist, an organisation comprising all the societies in the area is now called for so that they can have not only a common policy and common representation in meeting the Government, but can take their part with the co-operative movement in the rest of the world, which would give them great assistance and help. That is something which an individual society cannot organise and in which it needs the help of an official set-up of that kind. I raised this matter in December, 1957, and I shall be glad to know whether there has been any development.
Consequent upon the threatened deficiency of £1 million in the revenues—although there is ground for hoping that existing fears may be a little pessimistic—I hope that a series of panic measures will not be taken throughout the territory. Any general setback in social services—in education and in welfare, for example—would be the worst possible action to be taken at this stage, when so many developments are favourable to the future of Tanganyika.
I do not, of course, have all the facts to know why the decision was taken, but I am bound to call attention to the Governor's speech to the Legislative Council on 17th March, in which he said:
"It grieves me therefore to have to tell Honourable Members that I have had no alternative but to direct that despite our straitened circumstances increased provision should be made for the Territory's Police Force in drawing up the Budget for the next financial year."
Some of us visited the various camps and training centres of the police force, which maintains a very high standard, and one knows that from time to time the police may have difficult jobs to do. Normally, however, unless one was facing an emergency situation, I would not have thought that an increase in the police force would be the first of the priorities but would be lower down the list. Even

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at this stage, believing, as I do, that Tanganyika is not a lawless territory or one which is noted for violence, I hope that there may be second thoughts about this.
I notice that when a newly-elected European member was seconding the welcome to the speech by the Governor, he said in the Legislative Assembly:
"This country of ours…is not a turbulent country; they are not a warlike people, and I do feel that this might give quite the wrong impression, both inside and outside the Territory."
Referring to the point made by the Governor about increasing the police force, he wished that less emphasis had been placed
"on the prevailing disrespect for law and order, because I feel that it is only incidents that come up here and that Tanganyika is traditionally a law-abiding, peaceful country "
I hope it will not be thought that I intend to be provocative. I do not, because I do not know all the facts. All I am saying is that when an elected European member can say that, it gives to those who have had a chance of visiting the territory and seeing something of its problems the impression that this is not the sort of territory which is on the verge of civil war or where there is likely to be recurring violence on a wide scale. Therefore, I think it is discouraging to find that, despite the difficulty of the deficit to which I have referred, such very high priority is being given to the increased expenditure on the police force. I would certainly question the wisdom of that, although, of course, I may well be wrong, because, as I say, I have not access to all the reasons for this decision.
I wish very briefly to refer to the new land policy. I note from the Review of Land Tenure Policy, Part I, Tanganyika Government Paper No. 6. 1958, that there is a recommendation that in certain circumstances on African-held lands, held on ordinary customary tenure, it should be possible for a freehold tenure to exist whereby an individual African can have all the rights normally pertaining to freehold territory. I gather from the proposals in this Paper that any attempt by an African to sell to a non-African would have to secure the Governor's permission. I think that is absolutely right, because if that were not the case one might find that
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Article 10 of the Trusteeship Agreement would be breached, and that land would be parting permanently from the Africans for whose benefit the land is supposed to be held, and, I am sure, is being held, by the Government.
This announcement was made only in 1958, and I doubt whether very much has yet transpired. I should be glad if we could be given some information about that policy. I can appreciate and I am sure the House will appreciate that there are circumstances in which a better economic use of land could be made by individual cultivation than by tribal cultivation, but again, as the Government Paper properly points out, there are great dangers, too. There are dangers, if the holder of the land wishes to raise money on it, even if he sells to another African. I can see a number of problems arising in the future if there is a rapid dispossession of the land by those who have been granted the freehold. Certainly in my view it would be dangerous if it passed to non-Africans.
I now refer to some of the constitutional changes which were forecast in the Governor's speech on 17th March. Even though we are less pressed for time tonight than we are usually on the Adjournment there is still not time in which to attempt to make all the comments I should like. They are all probing comments, because one can only put forward views about the proposals as they strike one. If one appears to be critical it is so often because all the facts are not known to one. It is one of the advantages of a debate of this kind that one can elicit information.
The Governor referred to four constitutional changes. In the first case he referred to the need for adequate representation of the main minority communities. The impression I got from current political thought on a pretty wide scale led me to wonder whether, although there were main minority communities, as they are called in the Legislative Council, the emphasis was not unfortunate in so describing them. Of course, one must safeguard them, and. indeed, the policy statements of my own party have laid very great stress on the fact that they must be safeguarded, particularly in the stage approaching independence. I should have thought that in this multi-racial territory, with

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peaceful prospects before it and a very good record of co-operation on the whole between the various communities, it would have been better to have referred to Tanganyikans, particularly in constitutional developments, even if one had to make necessary safeguards in the Constitution.
I was a little dissatisfied to see this phrase, as in another proposal—proposal 2—one of the questions which the Constitutional Committee is to consider is
"whether there should continue to be members of Legislative Council representing such interests as the Governor may think fit…"
I suppose that is an indication of the work which the Committee has to do, but again one would hope that in considering group interests of one kind or another the emphasis would be given to the special aspect of some Tanganyikans rather than giving, as might be thought, the impression of a perpetual right to certain minority groups. This I think would be wrong.
I wanted to comment particularly on the third recommendation:
"To recommend whether, within the general principles of a qualitative franchise, any changes in the present qualifications for candidates and voters will be desirable; and, if so, what those changes should be."
As the House will be aware, a series of elections have now taken place and have resulted in the overwhelming and indeed universal victory of Tanganyika African National Union candidates, or (hose who stood with T.A.N.U. support. In fact, the Union had success all over the country. One of T.A.N.U.'s main planks was universal adult suffrage. Therefore, this sort of reference, not to consider whether there should be a new principle of franchise, but only to recommendations within the general principle of a qualitative franchise, seems to me a trifle provocative, and quite wrong.
In the Labour Party document on multiracial countries—and again I put this forward not for the sake of controversy but to be clear about our attitude—we state that:
"The common electoral roll is the vital test of political democracy in the plural society."
I think that from every point of view insistence upon a qualified franchise is wrong. It is wrong, in the first place, because it engenders suspicions. It is thought to be unfair even when it is not,
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and I am certain that the arrangements made for registration in Tanganyika are as fair as human ingenuity can make them. But it is so easy to whip up feelings about this system when large numbers of people are excluded from the vote. It maximises difficulties which need not be there at all.
It leads to extraordinary results. One finds in some of the Asian communities grown-up men living at home with their parents who, because they are not heads of households, or because they cannot qualify in other respects for the franchise, have no vote. This cannot be sensible or good. There are also difficulties of registration with various categories of qualifications. The arrangements are more complex and long-winded, and more paperwork is required than would be the case if there were a plain straightforward system. If one is serious about Parliamentary democracy, the great thing to do is to encourage as many people as possible to register and to give the vote to all genuine Tanganyikans living within the territory.
As it is quite true that more than 90 per cent. of the population do not live in large towns or communities in Tanganyika, it is equally true that probably a very large number of African Tanganyikans would never register, but a universal roll for electors could be coupled with a great education and civic drive. Let us really tell people what Parliamentary democracy is about, what their obligations are, and the part that everyone has to play. In that way we should get rid of suspicion and rob the opponents of democracy of the opportunity of suggesting that elections are being rigged in favour of the property class or of a minority group. Furthermore, a great campaign of that kind would have repercussions throughout the world, even those parts which are not free, because here would be a territory carrying out a campaign on a large scale which showed that it believed in the democratic principle and demonstrated that we could undertake real educational programmes like those we hear about in Iron Curtain countries.
For all those reasons, administrative and democratic, it seems to me that insistence upon the qualitative franchise is wrong. I am not saying that at this stage

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we would have to break down the arrangements for candidates of the three races being returned. The great thing would be first to make everyone a voter and then we could proceed to break down the other qualifications which now exist.
I apologise for speaking for longer than I meant to do, because there has been more time available. Finally, I hope that the Government of Tanganyika and our Colonial Office will recognise that in Julius Nyerere, of the Tanganyika African National Union, we are fortunate in having a leader and a movement both imaginative and democratic. After talks here and in Tanganyika with him and some of his followers, I see no reason to qualify that view. His objective, briefly stated in his own words, is ultimately an independent Tanganyika based upon the model of British Parliamentary democracy. In a world which is full of totalitarian impulses, of strong nationalist feelings, one would hope that this movement would have been encouraged in every possible way. I am not suggesting that it has not been encouraged but there have been incidents, which I have taken up by correspondence, with which I will not now weary the House, concerning individual T.A.N.U. branches. I am prepared to admit that some individuals may sometimes have acted foolishly, because that is inevitable in the circumstances.
It would be wrong, however to give the impression, and I hope no such impression will be given, that the Government are hesitant about T.A.N.U. that they will not give it help, that they do not welcome its attitude and programme. It is almost unique to have this view expressed with such moderation by a movement which really believes in Parliamentary democracy. Certainly it is unusual to find this attitude in Africa, so I hope we shall not make the mistake of being too hesitant in moving forward. As history has shown, hesitancy in this kind of change is its own worst enemy. If we appear to make grudging concessions all the time, we encourage people to do things the violent way rather than to do them the co-operative way, because violence so often seems to get results when peaceful methods fail. I could give examples if I wanted to be provocative, but I do not.
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Here we have a territory which, because of its land tenure in the past, because of the nature of the Africans who inhabit it, provides an opportunity for progressive and peaceful development. Tanganyika could be a model for the whole of Africa, and tonight I am trying not only to get answers to questions but to make the plea that, in the favourable circumstances which still exist, we should not neglect any opportunities of getting the maximum cooperation of all people, so that its future prosperity may become a reality.
9.35 p.m.
Mr. Graham Page: I wish I had anticipated that there would be time for me to intervene in this debate. Now that there is time, I cannot resist the opportunity to speak, but I wish I had been wise enough to put my thoughts into more orderly fashion beforehand.
I wish to take up one or two of the points made by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Skeffington). He and I had an intensely interesting time in Tanganyika several months ago. We learnt about the territory, and we came back with ideas and a great respect for what was being done there. As the hon. Member said, the territory is unique. In its possibilities, its political, economic and social development it is travelling along peaceful lines, and I hope that from this House we can encourage what is being done there.
In the political development there are difficulties, and these arise from the fact that there is not a Government party which can put forward by way of propaganda, in the best sense of the word, the Government's policy. The Government consists to a great extent of civil servants, and the district commissioners, on whom the administration of the country relies, are civil servants prohibited from giving guidance on Government policy. There is the difficulty that, if ill-minded persons exist, they have complete freedom to put over unfairly an opposition policy whereas the men who try to guide the native public—the district commissioners—must guide them merely as civil servants, and although the native population look to them frequently for guidance in Government policy, the district commissioners are restricted in putting it over in a propaganda fashion. I would not necessarily ask for a change in that situation,

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but it is a difficulty in making Government policy known to the people of Tanganyika that we must realise.
As the hon. Member said, we have cooperation from T.A.N.U., the primarily African political party. Julius Nyerere leading that party, although he has at times been very critical of the Government, has co-operated to a great extent. I believe that he believes that the future of Tanganyika is, I do not say multiracial, but non-racial, that Tanganyika will be governed by Tanganyikans whether they are African, European or Asian. In that connection, I think it is not sufficiently realised in this country that it is not a simple problem of black and white in Tanganyika. There are many communities, but the three main categories are European. African and Asian.
The way in which the Asian population has contributed to both the social and the economic advance of the territory is phenomenal. The generosity of the Ismaili community and the Asian population in general is astounding. They are really Tanganyikans. Perhaps this does not wholly apply to the Indian population. The Indian always keeps India as his home, but the Ismailis are Tanganyikans and have done a great deal for their country. It is on the Asian population in general that the commerce and, to some extent, the professions of the territory greatly rely. If we in this country do not realise the importance of the Asian contribution to the development of Tanganyika, and if we do not see that it is properly protected, I fear that the country will not continue to develop as it has done.
On the economic side of the development, there were two points which particularly struck me and the rest of our mission at the time. One was the way in which small groups of individuals were prepared to devote their lives—very hard lives—to the difficult types of development. We went miles into the wilds of the country and found a handful of men working on irrigation schemes and devoting their lives to them and with no other interest. The schemes were immense and will mean a terrific advance for the country's agriculture.
We also saw great developments in the co-operative schemes, particularly with coffee. That seems to be the type of
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development which particularly suits the African. I think that that is because it is a transitional development from the chieftainship regime, to which he has been used, to our idea of democracy. The producer co-operatives are a training ground for democracy in that area and I hope that we shall be able to encourage them as much as possible.
The great work that the missions have done in social development has been not taken over but built upon by the Government. Schools for the Africans are not yet nearly sufficient and there is very much to be done, but the ground is being covered. The proportion of the population receiving education is increasing all the time and the education being given seemed to us to be most satisfactory. There was an impressive development of hospitals particularly that at Dar-es-Salaam, We do not have modern hospitals like that in this country, and Tanganyika is becoming well served in that way.
All that social development must be based on economic development. The development of the territory depends upon political, economic and social development going hand in hand. I fear that we may not be sufficiently encouraging economic development. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington mentioned the geological survey unit at Dodoma. That unit has gained an immense amount of information and knowledge about the country's possibilities.
There are great possibilities in the pyrochlore mine further to the west in the Southern Highlands. With a little assistance, the side products from that mine could be used in the production of fertiliser for the centre of Tanganyika which would make a great deal of difference to agriculture. I understand that it is a matter only of bringing sulphuric acid to work on the pyrochlore to make a side product which could be used for fertilising millions of acres.
Also in that area there are possibilities of both coal and steel production. If we are to develop that production, the first thing to do is to extend the railway. Anyone who has been to Tanganyika would know that one of the first things one discusses in Tanganyika is the extension of the railway across the centre and also down to the south-west. I do not

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think that any real economic development can come from those parts of the territory which hold the greatest possibilities unless we are prepared to invest in the extension of that railway. Then we could get greater production of coal, steel and pyrochlore—with fertiliser as a sideline—and the development of sugar production and of the minerals which are being discovered in the western part of the Territory. A tremendous research scheme is going on there at present and there are great possibilities of mineral production in the western part of the territory.
I do not think there can be any better farming land or better farmed land anywhere in the world than in the north of the territory. The farmers there need a certain amount of protection by the Government, which at times they have sought in vain. We found among some of them the threat of farming in order to get out. Unless they receive better encouragement from the Government, they might decide to take everything from their lands and then leave. I hope that will never happen, because since the war they have developed the lands there into very fine farming lands. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington asked about oil. The search for oil was proceedings while we were there and the prospects seemed good. I do not know if my hon. Friend will be able to tell us anything more about that.
There is no doubt that in all these spheres, mineral and agricultural, there are great economic possibilities. It is on those economic possibilities that the social development and political development of the country must be based. Otherwise, the political development may overrun itself. I think that it should be taken as steadily as possible. Let us be frank; the African in Tanganyika is not fully ready to take over the government of that country. There are no African lawyers, no African doctors and very few Africans in what we in this country call the "white collar and black coat class", but they are being educated to that and will come to it in time, perhaps in a generation
If the development of the country is taken steadily, I am sure that we shall be able to produce there a non-racial community who will disregard entirely any division between European, Asian and African and look upon themselves
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entirely as Tanganyikans. That was said to us time and again while we were there by Asians, by African's and by Europeans. They regarded themselves as Tanganyikans.
One way of assisting the Europeans would be the provision of the schooling for European children. If we are to encourage good men from this country to go to Tanganyika and assist in its economic and political development, we must provide them with the amenities of the home country. At present, most of them have to send their children back to this country to be educated. I believe that St. George's College has been completed and will make provision for many of them.
I am not asking for separate European schools; St. George's College is quite rightly a mixed school. I am asking for good schools of the same educational quality as the public schools in this country. That will attract men to Tanganyika to help in its development. This is an extremely important point amongst those Europeans out there. Some of them, because they have to send their children back to this country for so many years and thus to break up the family life, are not prepared to stay out there themselves. If good schools are provided out there the good men from this country will go to Tanganyika to help both its economic and its political development.
I am sure that if progress is taken steadily, without any panic either in Tanganyika or in this country, we shall produce a peaceful non-racial community. It can be a unique example of the development of a Colony.
9.52 p.m.
Mr. James Griffiths: By the accident of our timetable we find ourselves with some time to discuss Tanganyika. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Skeffington) and the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) on their contributions to the debate. They have both had the privilege of visiting Tanganyika more recently than I, although I have had the privilege of visiting the country and for this reason I rise to emphasise some of the points that they have made.
My hon. Friend said that we have territories associated with us on each

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side of the African Continent. In West Africa, Nigeria will attain full independence as a Federation next year. Tanganyika, too, has a special place because it is a Trust Territory. It is the old German East Africa of pre-1914 days. The mandate was entrusted to us at the end of the 1914–18 war and is still entrusted to us by the United Nations. In Tanganyika, as both hon. Members said, we have our best chance in Africa. I have always said that. It is a large territory and it is believed that it has the resources upon which a very strong, viable economy can be built. That belief is becoming confirmed by the discoveries we make. It has a very fine people. It is fortunate in that almost from the beginning, and certainly in recent years, racial feeling has not been a problem, and we hope that it will not become a problem. Undoubtedly, there is very good co-operation.
The only criticism I would make is to question whether it was wise for the hon. Member for Crosby to begin to make distinctions between the Ismailis and the Indians. Racial feeling is so good in Tanganyika that perhaps, on reflection, he will think that it is not wise for any of us to begin to make differences between two communities both of whom belong essentially to that Continent. Racial feeling there is good.
Mr. Page: There was no suggestion of racial feeling between the two. I was thinking more of the capital employed. The Indian sends his capital to India. I wanted to stress the importance of the capital which the Ismailis have put in the country.
Mr. Griffiths: I accept what the hon. Gentleman has said.
I wish to emphasise two points made by my hon. Friend. First, I hope that serious consideration will be given to the suggestion he made, I gather not for the first time, that something equivalent to what we know in this country as the co-operative movement should be established in Tanganyika. One of the most encouraging developments in all the Colonial Territories since the end of the Second World War has been the development of co-operation. I do not know what the latest figures are, but it has been a continuous growth.
From my short experience as Colonial Secretary and my visits to the territories,
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I have always been convinced, and have sought to express my conviction, that the development of the co-operative movement in all its different aspects—producers' co-operatives, distributors' marketing co-operatives, co-operatives on the lines we adopt in this country—has a very important part to play.
I put one point above everything else. What we are seeing and facing in all these territories are the problems of the transition from a tribal society to what we hope will be a modern democratic society. This is a very important transition. History has compelled us all to face the fact that this transition must be made in a very short time. We cannot help that. From the day we went to these territories with our industrial methods, our schools, our colleges, our religion and everything else, we began to break up the tribal life. I believe that there is a growing feeling among large numbers of people that perhaps one of the disservices we have done is that we have broken up the tribal life with all its values before we replaced it with our own kind of life and have left, perhaps, a moral no-man's land.
I have always felt that if we could develop among the peasant farmers and others a strong co-operative movement we should be making the transition easier, for there is something in the cooperative movement, in joining together and working together, which will carry into the new society we hope to build some of the real values of the tribal society which are worth while preserving.
Therefore, I hope that we shall continue to give encouragement to the co-operative movement and to the establishment of co-operative societies. In addition, the stage must have been reached now in Tanganyika and elsewhere when these individual co-operative societies need the services of a central agency. That is what the co-operative movement does in this country. We have cooperative societies all over the country. There is the Co-operative Wholesale Society, which supplies them with the goods they have to dispose of, and there is the Co-operative Union, which provides them with common services, and that is very important.
I add my voice and support to the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington that

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serious consideration should be given to the encouragement of every possible means of establishing the co-operative movement. That is the way to link the co-operative societies into a movement which will play in the years ahead as important a part as it has played in the past. I hope very much that the plea of my hon. Friend will make those responsible for the administration in Tanganyika—the Secretary of State, the Under-Secretary and the Colonial Office—realise how important it is to give every encouragement—certainly to give fair play—to the development of the political organisation which we know as T.A.N.U. and its leader, Julius Nyerere.
I think that we are very fortunate in having him as leader of this organisation. It must be six or seven years ago since I was on a visit to Tanganyika. One day in Dar-es-Salaam a member of our administration who shall be nameless said to me, "I would like you to meet a young African teacher. I believe that he will play an important part in the political life of this territory." He was then a teacher in one of the schools not far from Dar-es-Salaam. The member of our administration made arrangements to bring this young man to meet me at Dar-es-Salaam. That was the first time I met him. He was Julius Nyerere. Here, not more than seven years ago, if as long, was a young man, a very good teacher, who was beginning to emerge as a political leader and who has since become a figure of very considerable political importance——
It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Gibson-Watt.]
Mr. Griffiths: Perhaps I may repeat what I have said before. We have an opportunity to meet young men from Africa who come to our colleges and universities. We shall probably meet some of them this week. How important it is for us to realise that, in meeting them, we are meeting those who will be the leaders in Africa in five or six years' time. It is very important that they should go back from this country with happy memories. If they go back with unhappy memories—and, perhaps, with a
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chip on their shoulder—of a thoughtless act of racial superiority committed in their young days, that can mean trouble and turmoil, perhaps, for a whole Colony in the future—just because those emerging leaders have felt themselves treated here as something less than human beings.
Julius Nyerere is a very fine character. He is a young man of very great ability. and a young man who has led T.A.N.U. on real democratic lines. I think that the results of the recent elections show quite clearly that it is the confidence of the Africans in their present leadership that will lead them along the lines of constitutional development, with our help and encouragement, and the establishment of a successful democratic society in Tanganyika.
I felt privileged to meet Julius Nyerere at the beginning of his career. I rejoice at his present position of influence, and I am very proud that he has led his followers on lines which, I believe and fervently hope, will one day see a Tanganyika of which he will be Prime Minister; a Tanganyika in which a democratic society is emerging towards fullness. No small part in that, as I hope, very happy eventuality, will be due to this young man's qualities of leadership.
I know that all those of us who have had the privilege to visit Tanganyika, with its great possibilities, watch its progress with great interest, and look forward to that progress being continued on the peaceful lines that it has so far followed, so that Tanganyika will become a nation in Africa in which it will have been our privilege to have played some part in creating.
10.3 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Julian Amery): The news that the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Skeffington) had secured the Adjournment tonight reached me at the end of last week as I returned to Georgetown from a journey into the interior of British Guiana. I cannot say that I was enthusiastic about the news, more especially as I knew that I would return to England only today. Nevertheless, the debate has, if I may say so, been a very fortunate and valuable one, and the speeches on both sides have shown the great confidence that those

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taking part in the debate feel in the progress of Tanganyika, and of its African leadership.
I join wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Page), by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths), and by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington. We have had both good and bad experiences with emerging African nationalism n different parts of the Continent. We have had good ones in Ghana and Nigeria, and, perhaps, less fortunate ones in Kenya and Nyasaland, but it looks to me—and this is my hope and faith—as if the pattern in Tanganyika is following the line of development of what we have seen happening in West Africa, and more recently, perhaps, in the elections in Northern Rhodesia.
The speeches tonight have traversed quite a wide field, and I shall try to answer the different points raised. If I fail, I hope that I shall earn some exculpation from the fact that, as I have said, I got back to England from the West Indies only this morning, and have not been able to probe all the different issues as deeply as I should have liked.
The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington opened his remarks by expressing concern for the conservation of the fauna of Tanganyika. I think that we all share, and sympathise with, his interest in this problem. At the same time, he knows what farmers feel about animal depredations. We have had here in this country very strong feeling expressed by the farming population about the rabbit, and the attendant horrors of myxomatosis have not really softened the hearts or the views of the farming population on this subject.
Yet the problem is much more acute in Africa, where it is not just a case of injuring production or profits, but where we have to deal with a subsistence economy and where the food which an animal eats or the crops which it wrecks may mean fewer meals for the human beings concerned. Quite frankly, I think that we have to move fairly carefully because we may not get the African cooperation if we try to have 100 per cent. protection of animals which are destructive in some cases of crops. I think that we might undo the efforts going on at the present time to persuade the villagers that it is important to foster fauna conservation,
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both for its own sake and for the ultimate development of tourism and other industries. A good deal is being done. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington referred to lions, zebra and hippopotamus being labelled as vermin. This is only in a few areas of the vast mass of Tanganyika. In the overwhelming majority of the territory they are protected by law.
The Secretary of State recently approved a grant of £182,000 from the Colonial Development and Welfare Fund for the establishment of a technical unit in the Ngorongoro conservation area. This will undertake not only pasture improvement and water and forest development but also game conservation and will be linked with the development of the Serengeti National Park, so I think that this will do something on the lines on which the hon. Gentleman was speaking.
When the hon. Gentleman spoke of the export of monkeys he was perhaps a little exaggerating the figures. He spoke of thousands upon thousands. I find that only fifty-six of the vervet monkeys used for the manufacture of polio vaccine were exported last year and none has been exported in the first two months of this year.
Mr. Skeffington: That is in only one type of monkey.
Mr. Amery: This is the monkey which is exported for polio vaccine and is the one about which a good deal of comment has taken place. These are the figures such as I have been able to get them. I think that if we were to try to go further than we have done, we might need a stronger police force and the hon. Gentleman was deprecating even the small increase in police that we suggest at the present time. I do not think that the police force is a very large one. At present the ratio of police to the population is one to 1,700 whereas in Uganda it is one to 500. This is one of the least policed territories in the world.
The reason a small and modest increase is sought at the moment is precisely the one which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Llanelly put his finger on. With the transition from tribal to modern societies some of the old disciplines are breaking down and a certain number of new laws and regulations are in force

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for modern industrial and urban types of civilisation, so quite naturally we need a certain increase in the police force. It is a very modest one which we are suggesting and certainly does not relate to any fears of disturbances. I agree that there is no police problem in that sense.
Let me turn now from animal problems and the police to human problems, first, to the bread and butter problem. The strides which have been taken in the last ten years towards the economic development of the country have been quite considerable. Government revenue has more than trebled. Exports, which in 1948 stood at little over £16 million a year, were worth over £46 million last year. The total value of external trade last year was about £90 million of which our share was a little under 30 per cent.
I will not take up cudgels with hon. Members as to how far the improvement was due to or was slowed up by the groundnut scheme. I think that the time is past when we need go too much into detail on that. Whatever subsidiary factors may have impeded or accelerated progress, the expansion was primarily fostered by the 1952 boom in commodity prices. The rate of increase has been less spectacular since commodity prices turned down and the fall in commodity prices has inevitably affected revenues. In 1957–58, there was still a small surplus, but in the current year there will be a deficit of between £600,000 and £1 million, and there is not much in reserve to meet the rising recurrent costs of administration.
The orthodox economist's solution would, I suppose, have been to cut back on expenditure and particularly on social services, but we agree with hon. Members that at this stage in Tanganyika's development that would be wrong and unwise. Her Majesty's Government have accordingly undertaken to help Tanganyika to overcome its financial difficulties where necessary, at any rate to the extent that the Tanganyika Government can continue to plan for basic services at reasonable levels. The ways in which this can best be done are now under examination.
The Legislative Council is now debating the Budget for the year which will begin on 1st July. From the draft estimates, which the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington thought a little on
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the pessimistic side, it looks as though there will be a deficit of £1,790,000. That is an indication of the kind of sum over which we may have to help the Tanganyika Government if it is to be able to plan basic services at reasonable levels. However, I do not think that that deficit calls for excessive gloom, because steady progress has been made and the gross domestic product rose from £142 million in 1954 to £169 million in 1958.
Some commodity prices are rallying. Coffee and cotton are still rather uncertain, but the price of sisal, much the most important crop, has risen considerably and showns no sign of falling. While I am on the subject of sisal, I am sure that the House would wish me to pay my tribute to the late Sir Eldridge Hitchcock, who great work in the development of sisal production in Tanganyika has done so much for the economy of that country.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby said, there is also a good deal of mineral wealth in the territory. At this point it is appropriate to refer to a transaction. a very important transaction from the point of view of the Tanganyika Government, which was undertaken last year in relation to Williamson Diamonds. After Dr. Williamson's death, the Tanganyika Government went half shares with de Beers in taking over Williamson Diamonds. An agreement was reached with de Beers which we and the Tanganyika Government regard as entirely satisfactory. Tanganyika has half the shares with four directors on the board, one of whom, incidentally, is Mr. David Mkwaia, who was a member of the Royal Commission on Lands and Population in East Africa and who is, of course, an African.
I think that our confidence in Tanganyika's economic future is soundly based. As hon. Members have said, the problem is how to make the best of the resources of the territory. The World Bank has agreed to send a mission to make a general economic survey and to help in the preparation of a development programme. This mission will not make detailed studies of particular technological problems, nor of specific projects, but it will examine present economic trends and assess the resources available for future development. It will begin work this week. It is expected to stay in Tanganyika until the end of August. Meanwhile, until we have its report—I hope

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that this will not be thought evasive—I would rather not anticipate its findings with regard to sugar and oil or, indeed, with regard to the extension of the railway line.
There we have, if I may call it that, the economic foundation upon which political progress has to be based. It is, after all, on the economic foundation alone that progress can be made politically. The main task before us is how to increase the association of the people of Tanganyika with the direction of their national life. In some ways, this can be done, perhaps most effectively, directly, and here I join with the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Llanelly in attaching great importance to the development of the co-operative movement. The co-operative movement is making steady progress. The figures are actually better than those the hon. Gentleman gave. At the present time, there are not 470 societies registered but 546, with a membership of 319,000 persons. Last year, 85 new societies were registered. That possibly accounts for the difference between his figures and mine.
Most of the societies are, of course, marketing organisations, there are also five credit societies, six consumer co-operatives and one building society. The value of produce marketed during 1958 by the co-operatives amounted to nearly £11 million. By far the most important crop was coffee in this case. A coffee curing works has been built during the year by the Bukoba Native Co-operative Union. It is rather interesting to note that, since then, the Bukoba Co-operative Union has concluded an agreement with the Tanganyika Government to supply electricity to the Bukoba township from the power station at the Co-operative Union's works.
The hon. Gentleman made an interesting suggestion about the need for a union, a holding organisation, as it were, for all these co-operatives. I must confess that I have not, in the time available to me today, been able to look into the matter. I am grateful for the suggestion. I have no doubt it has been studied in the Department since he has made it before, but I should like to acquaint myself fully on the pros and cons in regard to it.
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I suppose that almost more important still is the bringing forward of local people to fill higher posts in Government, commerce and industry. Here, one is torn in two directions. In the climate of Africa, one has to move fast, but, on the other hand, if one lowers one's standards, one may wreck all one's work. Out of 27,962 Government officers—I apologise for all these statistics, but they are necessary to give the facts—24,606 are already locally domiciled. That is over the whole range of the administration. What is interesting is the progress made in the staff list of senior appointments. In 1954, there were five Africans holding senior appointments. Today there are 181. This is still by no means the majority, but it is a sign of the progress which is being made.
The main bases from which we are operating for progress on the training front are the Government bursary scheme and the help we receive from Makerere College, from the Royal Technical College at Nairobi, and from the Technical Institute at Dar-es-Salaam. There is also a number of courses on the cooperative movement, local government, labour administration, community development, housing, public health, nursing and things of that kind. Over 2,000 officers have attended courses such as these during the last year, and we expect very nearly 3,000 to attend similar courses this year. Colonial Development and Welfare Funds have contributed to setting up two trade schools. I noted what my hon. Friend said about the importance of European education, and I shall certainly look into the advice he gave in his speech.
I come now to what one might call the top structure, the superstructure, of political and constitutional affairs. As the House knows, in February of this year, thirty representative members of the Legislative Council were elected. It was the first time that they had been elected. They had been nominated before. This resulted, as we know, in an overwhelming victory for the T.A.N.U. and those supported by it. The elections were orderly and the scene has been set for a fresh advance.
In the Legislative Council on 17th March the Governor announced the creation of a Council of Ministers to come into being on 1st July. To this

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Council there will be appointed five unofficial Ministers. Mr. Nyerere has not felt able to accept a portfolio. I regret this, but I understand it completely. He has, however, been able to ensure that two of the three African Ministers belong to his party and that the remaining Ministers are persons elected with T.A.N.U. support. The Governor also announced, as my right hon. Friend told the House on 26th March, the terms of reference of a Committee to investigate a number of constitutional matters. The hon. Member pleaded here for universal adult suffrage as against a qualified franchise, but we are just at the beginning of the constitutional development of Tanganyika. These were the first elections. We are not dealing with a simple matter. I do not know how things would have turned out in this country had we gone straight to a universal franchise 100 or 200 years ago, but it seems to me that this is one of the matters which this Committee can and should look into.
The Committee will consider the composition of the representative side of the Legislative Council, the constituencies, the voting system and the qualifications for candidates and voters. It is called, not very attractively, the Post Elections Committee, and it starts work this week under the chairmanship of Sir Richard Ramage, who, as the right hon. Gentleman will know, had a very distinguished Colonial Service career and was later Chairman of the Uganda Public Service Commission. There are thirteen other members, eight elected and five nominated.
In the political and constitutional field Tanganyika is clearly entering a decisive phase in its development. The Governor has undertaken to consider with his advisers and with the Secretary of State and us here in London the question of further advances in the main constitutional field during the time that the Post Elections Committee is conducting its inquiries. He has expressed the hope that it will be possible to make an announcement on the next moves forward, when final decisions on the Post Elections Committee's recommendations are made public.
Here, much will depend on how the newly appointed unofficial Ministers and
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their elected colleagues face the extremely difficult problems which confront Tanganyika. Above all, they have to find means by which the rapid political development of the territory can be matched by the development of its economic and human resources. The danger is that the one may outstrip the other. I am sure that all hon. Members will join me in wishing them well in the new tasks and responsibilities which they are undertaking. They can rely on a loyal and efficient Civil Service in discharging them, and I hope that mutual respect and tolerance will continue to govern the relationships between the races both in this and in other fields as they have throughout the evolution of Tanganyika.
The hon. Gentleman spoke of the need for confidence in the African leadership in Tanganyika. Certainly we in the Colonial Office have faith and confidence that things are moving along the right lines.
Looking ahead to the longer term, I think that I ought, in fairness to the Governor, to quote what Sir Richard Turnbull said in the Legislative Council in October, 1958. I was not sure whether the hon. Gentleman fully understood what he said. These were his words:
"In terms of population the Africans are and always will be an overwhelming majority in Tanganyika and, as the country progresses, it is right and proper, as indeed it is natural and inevitable, that African participation both in the legislature and in the executive should steadily increase. It is not intended, and never has been intended, that parity should be a permanent feature of the Tanganyika scene. On the other hand it is intended, and always has been intended, that the fact that when self-government is eventually attained both the legislature and the government are likely to be predominantly African should in no way affect the security of the rights and interests of those minority communities who have made their homes in Tanganyika."
I do not think that that stresses the balance wrongly. It expresses both our determination to see that all communities, minorities as well as majorities, should have fair play and our confidence in the ability of the Africans to develop to the point where they will be leading the destinies of Tanganyika themselves.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes past Ten o'clock.

SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH
  Motor-Vehicle Exhausts (Atmospheric Pollution)
  Motor-Vehicle Exhausts (Atmospheric Pollution)
TRADE AND COMMERCE
  North Eastern Trading Estates, Limited
  North Eastern Trading Estates, Limited
  Dutch Flower Bulbs (Quotas)
  Dutch Flower Bulbs (Quotas)
  Cinematograph Films Act, 1957
  Cinematograph Films Act, 1957
  U.S.S.R. (Trade Agreement)
  U.S.S.R. (Trade Agreement)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Income Tax Act, 1952 (Section 25)
  Income Tax Act, 1952 (Section 25)
  Iron and Steel Realisation Account
  Iron and Steel Realisation Account
  Post-war Credits
  Post-war Credits
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Northampton Cattle Market (Byelaws)
  Northampton Cattle Market (Byelaws)
  Sewage Disposal, Tyneside
  Sewage Disposal, Tyneside
  Water Supplies (Strontium 90)
  Water Supplies (Strontium 90)
  Household and Trade Refuse (Salvage)
  Household and Trade Refuse (Salvage)
  Residential Caravans
  Residential Caravans
  County Councillors (Allowances)
  County Councillors (Allowances)
KENYA
  Josiah Mwangi Kariuki
  Josiah Mwangi Kariuki
  State of Emergency
  State of Emergency
  Former Detainees, Marsabit (Restriction of Residence)
  Former Detainees, Marsabit (Restriction of Residence)
  African Political Organisations
  African Political Organisations
  Kikuyu, Embu and Meru
  Kikuyu, Embu and Meru
  Land Control (Native Lands) Bill
  Land Control (Native Lands) Bill
  Officers, Hola Camp (Disciplinary Charges)
  Officers, Hola Camp (Disciplinary Charges)
UGANDA
  Situation
  Situation
NORTHERN RHODESIA
  New Hospital Block, Lusaka (Sewerage)
  New Hospital Block, Lusaka (Sewerage)
CYPRUS
  Dectra Navigational Equipment
  Dectra Navigational Equipment
NYASALAND
  Mr. Garfield Todd
  Mr. Garfield Todd
ZANZIBAR
  Ministers
  Ministers
  LAND REGISTRATION
  LAND REGISTRATION
MINISTRY OF HEALTH
  Welfare Foods (Tynemouth and Whitley Bay)
  Welfare Foods (Tynemouth and Whitley Bay)
  Cancer (Children)
  Cancer (Children)
  Habit-Forming Drugs
  Habit-Forming Drugs
  Advertising Inquiry Committee
  Advertising Inquiry Committee
HOSPITALS
  Waiting Lists, Salford
  Waiting Lists, Salford
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Grants and Subsidies
  Grants and Subsidies
  National Agriculture Advisory Service
  National Agriculture Advisory Service
TELEPHONE SERVICE
  Waiting List
  Waiting List
  Mid-Ulster
  Mid-Ulster
EDUCATION
  Teachers, Don Valley
  Teachers, Don Valley
GAS
  Former Municipal Employees (Pensions)
  Former Municipal Employees (Pensions)
SCOTLAND
  Poliomyelitis
  Poliomyelitis
  Mobile Shops
  Mobile Shops
  STRONTIUM 90
  STRONTIUM 90

Preamble
Reassembling, for Public Business, after the Whitsun Recess, the House met at half past two of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester
The Earl of Kimberley—Took the Oath.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL
Read 2a, and committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee.
RAILWAY PASSENGERS ASSURANCE BILL
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed and returned to the Commons.
NORTH DEVON WATER BILL
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed and returned to the Commons.

THE UNITED STATES AND BRITISH SHIPPING
2.36 p.m.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, having regard to the serious fall in the net contribution to the United Kingdom balance of payments, made by our merchant shipping, they will institute high-level discussions with the United States Government with a view to ending discriminatory practices, subsidies, the use of flags of convenience and other barriers to free and fair trading.]
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, as was announced on May 22 last, my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation is leading
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the United Kingdom delegation at talks on shipping matters with the United States Government which are to begin in Washington on June 8. These talks were originated by an approach from the Government of the Netherlands to the United States Government in December last year, and delegations from nine European countries, including the United Kingdom, will be taking part in them.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, while welcoming the fact that these important discussions are to be led by the Minister of Transport and Civil Aviation, may I ask why, just before the discussions take place, we have decontrolled imports of dollar foodstuffs and increased the quantities of imported manufactured goods? Would it not be better, before there is a further expansion of dollar imports, to seek an assurance that there will be a reciprocal easement of British goods into the United States and an end of discriminatory shipping practices?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, the noble Lord asked me a specific Question as to whether the Government will institute high-level talks. I have answered that Question. The question the noble Lord has now asked me is somewhat more detailed and rather a sideline to the original Question, and I would ask him to put it down on the Order Paper.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, while it may be to some extent a sideline, does the noble Earl not agree that the question of ending discriminatory shipping practices is completely tied up with the trade between our respective countries? Is it not, therefore, relevant, and a subject to be advanced at these discussions?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: Maybe.
LORD TAYLOR: My Lords, will the discussions include talks on the matter of flags of convenience?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: I understand so.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, will the discussions specifically include references to discriminatory practices against British exports?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: I understand that that will also be the case.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, may I ask whether it is proposed to inform the House of the results of these discussions after they have taken place?
THE EARL OF GOSFORD: My Lords, I will certainly bring that matter to the attention of my right honourable friend.

EXPORTS TO CHINA
2.39 p.m.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government in how many cases since May, 1957, has Her Majesty's representative at "Cocom" in Paris submitted to that body items for which, in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, export licences to China ought to be granted; and in how many of such cases have such submissions been outvoted by the representatives of other Governments.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE): My Lords, as the noble Viscount is aware, the proceedings in "Cocom" are confidential to its fifteen members. I am therefore unable to give him the information for which he asks. I can, however, assure the noble Viscount that the limited strategic controls now applied do not prevent a substantial increase in trade between the United Kingdom and the countries of the Sino-Soviet bloc if the Governments of those countries wish to see that trade develop.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I thank the noble Marquess for that Answer. May I ask him whether he is aware that for some eight years British manufacturers, without any appeal to Parliament, have been subjected to the decisions of this Star Chamber body, at which sits a representative of the United States who have no export trade at all with China? Will Her Majesty's Government initiate steps to put an end to this system which has long outlived its functions?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: No, My Lords.
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess whether the decisions of this body are equally binding upon all the parties to it?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Yes, my Lords.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess, if the Government will not do it now, when will they initiate steps to put an end to this embargo?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, as has been explained to the noble Viscount and to your Lordships in this House, the embargo is limited solely to items of strategic significance.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, may I, with the permission of the House, ask the noble Marquess whether he is aware of the strong differences of opinion in industry, and particularly in the electronics industry, as to what is strategic and what is not, quite apart from what the Board of Trade may think?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, all these applications for permits are, as the noble Viscount knows, carefully considered by the fifteen countries concerned. As the noble Viscount was personally informed in this House in February, in fact, our trade with China has very considerably increased. I do not want to weary your Lordships, but it might be wise to remind you that in 1957 the figure was £12,100,000, while in 1958 it was £26,700,000. As I tried to convey to the noble Viscount in my original reply, there is ample scope for a considerable increase in trade with the Sino-Soviet bloc if they so wish. With great respect to the noble Viscount, to go on harping on this very small item and suggesting that it is limiting and restricting our trade really is not quite correct.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: Is the noble Marquess aware that it is not a small item?
LORD WILMOT OF SELMESTON: My Lords, I am sorry to press this matter but is the noble Marquess aware (and I have already brought instances to his notice) that items which are embargoed so that British manufacturers cannot supply them are subsequently shipped to

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China by other countries who are members of this body?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I forget whether it was to the noble Lord that I replied on this subject once before, but we have no evidence of buccaneering.

JUDICIAL STANDING ORDERS
2.44 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT KILMUIR): My Lords, under Standing Order V an appellant must give security for costs when bringing an appeal to the House of Lords, and this may be done by means of a recognisance for £500, and a bond for £200, or by a recognisance and a lodgment of £200 in cash. The total amount, therefore, to be secured under the Standing Orders is £700, but no provision is made for the payment of the total sum of £700 in cash. In recent years parties have found it convenient to pay the total amount in cash, and when this occurs it is now necessary to make a formal Order in the Minutes allowing them to do so. The purpose of these Amendments to Standing Order V, and of the consequential Amendments to Standing Order XI, is to bring the procedure as laid down in the Standing Orders into line with modern practice, thereby enabling appellants to an appeal to lodge £700 in cash by way of security, as an alternative to entering into a bond or recognisance, without an order of the House having been made in each case to enable them to do so. I beg to move.
Moved, That the following Amendments be made to the Standing Orders regulating Judicial Business:
The following Standing Order shall be substituted for Standing Order V, namely—
("V. (1) ORDERED, that in all Appeals the Appellants do give security for costs either—

(a) by payment into the House of Lords Security Fund Account of the sum of seven hundred pounds, such sum to be subject to the Order of the House in regard to the costs of the Appeal; or

(b) by payment of the sum of two hundred pounds into the House of Lords Security Fund Account, and by entering into a recognizance, in person or by substitute, to the amount of five hundred pounds; or

488

(c) by procuring two sufficient sureties, to the satisfaction of the Clerk of the Parliaments, to enter into a joint and several bond to the amount of two hundred pounds, and by entering into a recognizance, in person or by substitute, to the amount of five hundred pounds.

ORDERED, that all payments of money into the Security Fund Account be made within one week of the presentation of the Appeal.
ORDERED, that the names of sureties or substitutes, with a certificate of sufficiency signed by the Agents for the Appellants, be lodged in the Parliament Office within one week of the presentation of the Appeal, two clear days' previous notice of the names so proposed for the bond and the recognizance having been given to the Solicitors or Agents for the Respondents.
(2) ORDERED, that, in the event of the Clerk of the Parliaments requiring a justification of the sureties or substitute, the Agents for the Appellants do, within one week from the date of official notice to that effect, lodge in the Parliament Office an affidavit or affidavits by the proposed sureties or substitute, setting forth specifically the nature of the property in consideration of which they claim to he accepted, and also declaring that the property in question is unencumbered and that, after payment of all just debts and liabilities, such sureties or substitute are each well and truly worth the sums required under the bond or the recognizance respectively.
ORDERED, that, in the event of the proposed sureties to the bond not being deemed satisfactory by the Clerk of the Parliaments. the Appellants do, within four weeks of the date of official notice by the Clerk of the Parliaments to that effect, pay into the Security Fund Account the sum of two hundred pounds, to be subject to the Order of the House with regard to the costs of the Appeal; and that, in the event of the proposed substitute to the recognizance not being deemed satisfactory by the Clerk of the Parliaments, the Appellants do enter into the usual recognizance in person.
(3) ORDERED, that any such bond and the recognizance (whether entered into by the Appellants or by a substitute) be returned to the Parliament Office duly executed within one week from the date of the issue thereof to the Solicitors or Agents for the Appellants.
On default by the Appellants in complying with the above conditions, the Appeal to stand dismissed.")
Standing Order XI, line 15, leave out ("the sum of £200, where that amount") and insert ("any sum that")
line 16, leave out ("account of the").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: the said Standing Orders amended accordingly.

OBSCENE PUBLICATIONS BILL
2.46 pm.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD BIRKETT: My Lords, I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill. I do not think it will be necessary to make any extensive draft upon your Lordships' time and patience, for although the Bill is an important one, the subject with which it deals difficult and complex, and the field it covers very wide, nevertheless I think it should be quite possible to explain to your Lordships' House, with reasonable brevity, the purposes of the Bill.
The formal stated purposes of the Bill are to amend the law relating to obscene publications; to provide for the protection of literature, and to strengthen the law against pornography. These purposes were discussed, debated and considered at very great length in another place, and they come before your Lordships' House after several years' consideration in another place. The origin of the Bill was that a Committee of the Society of Authors were aggrieved, and quite deeply aggrieved, by certain prosecutions which took place in the year 1954. Those prosecutions were of publishers of high standing and very reputable firms, and they brought to a head the dissatisfaction which had been widely felt about the state of law dealing with obscenity, not particularly by authors or publishers or by the literary world in general, but by all those who were concerned with the administration particularly of the criminal law, such as the police and, indeed, the Home Office.
The Bill was introduced into another place in the year 1955, and for a time it made no headway whatever. It is not necessary to trouble your Lordships with the subsequent history of the Bill or the changes in its fortunes, but there are two matters, I think of importance, which may affect your Lordships' judgment upon the whole Bill. In the year 1957. two years after the introduction of the earlier Bill, a Select Committee was set up in another place to consider the law dealing with obscenity and obscene publications. It sat for two Sessions of Parliament; it called before it every interest concerned with the matter, such as the police, the Department of the
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Director of Public Prosecutions, the Public Morality Council, authors, publishers and so on, and the Bill which comes before your Lordships this afternoon contains many of the recommendations which were made by that Select Committee.
The second matter which I think it is important your Lordships should have in mind is that although the Bill manifestly owes a great deal to the skill, knowledge and assiduity of the Members of another place—and I am told that I may pay special tribute to the honourable Member for Stechford, who introduced it there—as it stands to-day it owes very much to the help and co-operation of Her Majesty's Government. The Home Secretary showed a very sympathetic attitude towards the Bill, and the practical help of the learned Solicitor-General has been widely appreciated. It is altogether proper that this afternoon, in moving the Second Reading in your Lordships' House, I should acknowledge, with gratitude, the help and co-operation of Her Majesty's Government. I am sure I may say of my noble and learned friend who sits upon the Woolsack that, with his customary kindness, that consideration will be extended by him here, as I am certain it will be by noble Lords in every part of the House. Therefore I will just submit that this Bill, although far from being a perfect Bill (indeed, I have come to the conclusion that no perfect Bill upon this complex and difficult subject will ever be introduced), does nevertheless reconcile diverse views in a practical way and constitutes a distinct step forward so far as the law on obscenity is concerned and in the public interest.
Before I turn to deal quite briefly with the actual clauses of the Bill, perhaps it would assist your Lordships if I were to say a word or two about what I will call the machinery of the law as it exists at the moment with regard to obscene publications. The basis of the law is the Common Law; it is a Common Law misdemeanour to publish obscene matter. The section of the Magistrates Act, 1952 —I think it is Section 19, or it may be Section 16—provides that that Common Law misdemeanour may be tried summarily if the defendant consents, and in that event the magistrate is empowered to impose a fine of up to £100 or imprisonment up to six months, or both; but so far as the Common Law misdemeanour

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is concerned, upon indictment there is no limit either to the fine or to the imprisonment. Your Lordships may recall that the Criminal Justice Act, 1948, abolished the sentence of penal servitude. Up to that moment it had always been the usage of the courts that when a sentence of imprisonment was imposed the maximum was two years; but since the passing of that Act there have been at least four decisions in which it has been authoritatively laid down that the amount of the fine or the amount of the imprisonment is entirely within the discretion of the court, for any length of time, always providing that the sentence is not inordinate.
I think that that is all that need be said about the situation under Common Law. Perhaps as I leave it I may say this: that until the year 1772 there was no such offence known to the Common Law as the publication of what is now termed an obscene libel, using the word "libel" in a sense in which we do not ordinarily use it. In the term "obscene libel", the word "libel" is taken from a Latin diminutive from the indictment which meant a little book, which is quite different from the use we ordinarily give to the word "libel". Until 1772 there was no such offence. It is a good illustration of what the English Common Law can do, for it was always supposed that matters of obscenity or matters concerning public morals were the exclusive concern and jurisdiction of the spiritual courts, the Ecclesiastical Courts. Indeed, in a famous case ten years before 1727 so great a legal figure as Chief Justice Holt had declared that there was no power of the law to deal with obscenity. In 1727 a man named Curll, presuming upon the situation, published pornography on a wholesale scale. Steps were taken to bring him to trial and, after much dispute and with some doubts on the part of some judges, this offence, the Common Law misdemeanour of publishing an obscene libel, came into our law and is in our law to-day.
Apart from the Common Law—and, as your Lordships will hear in one moment, this Bill does a great deal to affect the Common Law—there is a very important Statute which I must mention. It is the Statute called the Obscene Publications Act, 1857, sometimes known as Lord Campbell's Act, because Lord Campbell
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introduced it into this House. In a word, that Act provides a summary procedure whereby obscene publications may be searched for by the police on premises and seized, and, by due process of law, if the case is made out the obscene publications may be destroyed. Very crudely that was the purpose and the effect of the Obscene Publications Act, 1857. Your Lordships will observe that no new offence was created in that and nobody could be convicted under that Statute. All that could be done was that if the case was made out the offending matter might be destroyed.
In this House the Bill was very strongly opposed, notably by Lord Lyndhurst, who made a speech which is still most interesting to read, and by Lord Brougham, and the objection which they made is one that has been raised almost ever since. They said that the Bill was too severe, in that it would injure the true interests of literature; and they cited the classics, Rochester's poems, plays of Wycherley and Congreve and so on. I mention the point for this reason. Lord Campbell said in this House:
"It is not within my most distant contemplation that works of literature should he affected by this Bill at all. This Bill is aimed exclusively at those who have the single purpose of corrupting the morals of youth or of shocking the conscience of reasonably minded people."
In a word, my Lords, the Bill of 1857 was introduced into this House and went through the House of Commons and became law because it was a Bill aimed at pornography or, in modern language, dirt for dirt's sake. I do not suppose that anywhere in this House there is a noble Lord who would not be extremely keen that the strongest possible measures should be maintained in our law against pornography of that kind. I think that that is probably all that it is really necessary to say with regard to what I will call the machinery of the law.
Perhaps your Lordships will be kind enough to turn to the Bill itself. I can deal, I hope quite briefly, with the provisions of the Bill. Clause 1 deals with the test of obscenity. Perhaps I may just say that that matter has always been the very great difficulty in this complex and difficult field. The law at the moment is as it was laid down in an important case, The Queen v. Hicklin in the year 1868. That was a case under Lord Campbell's

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Act where a Wolverhampton metal dealer had sold publicly some pamphlets called The Confessional Unmasked. It was alleged that these pamphlets, published by a militant Protestant society, were obscene. The magistrates ordered the police to seize them, and 250 were seized. The justices before whom the matter first came condemned the pamphlet as being obscene. On appeal to quarter sessions the recorder revoked the order. In consequence, an appeal was made to the Queen's Bench Division and the Court, over which Chief Justice Cockburn presided, with Mr. Justice Blackburn and Mr. Justice Lush sitting with him, decided the case and overruled the recorder.
In the course of that case the Court adjourned for a few moments before delivering judgment. They came back and Chief Justice Cockburn delivered the first judgment. In the course of it, the laid down the test of obscenity which has been the English law ever since, and it is still the law to-day. Whether it was a considered phrase, or whether it was extempore I really do not know, but he said:
"The test of obscenity is whether the tendency of the matter charged as obscenity is to deprave and corrupt those whose minds are open to such immoral influences and into whose hands such a publication might fall."
I am not one of those who deride the standard of the Victorian age. On the contrary. But ideas change; tastes change from generation to generation; and it has for a long time been felt that the test laid down in 1868 by Chief Justice Cockburn is no longer applicable to modern conditions. I see that my noble and learned friend Lord Denning is to take part in this discussion this afternoon. In his book, The Road to Peace, he deals with the definition laid down by Chief Justice Cockburn, and states his opinion that it is inadequate for our modern age and, if rigorously applied, would deprive us of some of our much esteemed freedom. He further speaks about the futility of test, and gives his reasons.
It has been very widely felt that the test of 1868 certainly needed revision. Whilst I am not going to debate it—this is perhaps not the time or the place—perhaps I might just say this. The test offends, I think, rather a fundamental matter in the criminal law. It has always
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been held that our criminal law should be certain: that men should know of assurity what they may do and what they may not do; and, secondly that if a criminal offence is to be created it must be done by Parliament and not by the Courts. It may be said that the definition of 1868, which has virtually been Statute Law ever since it was declared, offends in those two particulars. There is, however, something just a little deeper. Your Lordships will observe that the tendency referred to in the test of obscenity is not a tendency to shock or to disgust, either by the nature of the language employed or by the theme with which the subject matter, the book or whatever it may be, deals, but "to deprave and corrupt;" and the test is whether it tends to depravity or corruption in the minds of
"those whose minds are open to such immoral influences and into whose hands the publication may fall".
In a word, in the case of an author writing on a serious topic, for modern minds and mature minds only, if the books fell into the hands of some immature child it might be said that the tendency was to deprave and to corrupt; and there is your Common Law misdemeanour. Indeed, Lord Campbell himself was naturally careful about the morals of youth. And Chief Justice Cockburn, in the course of his judgment, explained what he meant by a tendency to depravity and corruption, by saying that it created impure thoughts in the mind; in other cases it was extended to the stimulus of impure thoughts, and then it was extended still further by suggesting that it tended rather to destroy public morals. Indeed, in 1877, when Charles Bradlaugh and Mrs. Annie Besant were prosecuted for publishing obscene matter, all they did was to publish a pamphlet, which it was admitted was extremely well written, advocating birth control. To show how very much ideas change, the learned Solicitor-General of that day who prosecuted Charles Bradlaugh and Mrs. Besant, and who later was Lord Chancellor, Lord Halsbury, said about the publication:
Do not tell me that doctors support it. I have no hesitation in describing it as filth"
But the importance of the matter is the extension of the dictum of Chief Justice Cockburn. Of course, it really

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means—I leave it at this—that, if the test is rigorously applied, The Reeve's Tale, in Chaucer, Romeo and Juliet, The Diary of Samuel Pepys, Tristram Shandy, as examples taken at random, fall within the ban. It is enough for me to say that it has been widely felt that, while it is important that pornography should be, struck at with vigour, and everybody would support such action. we ought to be extremely careful not to injure true literature. My Lords, let me say this and be done with it. In my submission to your Lordships, the freedom to write is a great freedom. Your English writer, must be free and permitted to depict the thoughts and feelings of his own generation, the habits, the customs, the, prejudices and the weaknesses which form the complexity of human behaviour. the ideas which are current in all sorts and conditions of man—he must be able to set them down not only for his own, generation but, it may be, for the generations that are still to come.
In Clause 4 of the Bill there is a provision which I think will be of great service in seeing that true literature is not endangered or injured, while pornography, dirt for dirt's sake, receives the strongest possible condemnation. The test which is now suggested in Clause 1 (1) of this Bill is that
"For the purposes of this Act an article"—
and "article" is defined in subsection (2), and a book is clearly included—
"shall be deemed to be obscene if its effect or (where the article comprises two or more distinct items) the effect of any one of its items, is, if taken as a whole, such as tend to deprave…"
"Taken as a whole" are extremely important words; they are in fact at the present time the usage of the Courts, There was a time when isolated passages were taken from books and were presented to the jury as the test. I suppose that that derives from the fact that in the ordinary case of criminal libel it was necessary to set out in the indictment the actual words, but it was never so necessary in the case of what is called an obscene libel; and if you are going to judge a book you must not select just some paragraph or passage which may offend certain people, but you must take the dominant effect of the whole book. When James Joyce's Ulysses was
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the subject of a prosecution in the United States—it has never been prosecuted here—some quite interesting judgments were delivered there about the freedom of the writer and about the necessity to look at the document as a whole. Therefore, these words have been put into the Bill, but they are in truth and in fact the usage of the courts at the present moment.
The test described in this Bill is whether the document will
"tend to deprave and corrupt persons who are likely, having regard to all relevant circumstances, to read, see or hear the matter contained or embodied in it."
The Hicklin test has thus been transformed to cover all literate humanity, and asks: What is the price of the book? Is it a Pan, a Penguin or one from a private source? Where was it bought—in a pornographic shop, in a store, or at the counter of the National Library? What were the circumstances attending the publication—the honest purpose of the writer and his sincerity? All these matters must be taken into consideration before the test of obscenity is satisfied. Subsection (2) of the same clause defines "article", and subsection (3) defines "publication". I ought to say a word upon that.
My noble and learned friend who sits on the Woolsack tells me that it is desired by Her Majesty's Government that the definition of "publication" should be extended, and just before I came into the House I saw the suggested Amendment. As I understand the Amendment, it would read:
"distributes, circulates, sells it, lets it on hire, gives or lends it;"
and then there is a subsection to be added. All I would desire to say this afternoon is that whilst I cannot, here and now, say that that Amendment will be acceptable—because we should very much like to consider it, particularly as it affects stage plays—I do not think there will be the smallest difficulty in coming to an agreement satisfactory to everybody on the extension of the term "publication".
Clause 2 lays down the penalties. I have told your Lordships that at Common Law there is no limit to the imprisonment or fine. The Select Committee suggested these figures, and the promoters of the Bill thought it wise to

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back this decision of the Select Committee. As a result Clause 2 (1) reads:
"any person who, whether for gain or not, publishes an obscene article shall be liable—

(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months;

(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or both."

Your Lordships may feel that some of those terms are rather severe, but they are the decision of the Select Committee, and it will be seen that what is now defined by the Bill is a summary offence in place of the Common Law misdemeanour of obscene libel. Your Lordships will observe that under subsection (2) of Clause 2 a period of twelve months from the commission of the offence is substituted for six months, which is the customary time; and the power to deal with the Common Law offence summarily, under the Magistrates Courts Act, 1952, is abolished.
Subsection (3) of Clause 2 says merely that:
"A prosecution on indictment for an offence… shall not be commenced more than two years after the commission of the offence."
Subsection (4) provides that
"No prosecution shall be brought for an offence at common law consisting of the publication of any matter contained or embodied in an article where it is of the essence of the offence that the matter is obscene."
That abolishes, so far as the articles named in the Bill are concerned, the Common Law misdemeanour to which I have referred. Subsection (5) gives the definition of innocent dissemination. Your Lordships debated and discussed that matter during the passage of Children and Young Persons (Harmful Publications) Act, 1955; and you will possibly consider it quite just and proper that if a man proves he had not examined an article, and had no reasonable cause to suspect that he would be made liable, and can satisfy a court upon that, he should not be convicted. Subsection (6) limits the publication so that the test of obscenity is not made too wide. The publication only shall be looked at and the question of obscenity shall be determined without regard to any publication by another person unless it could be reasonably expected that the publication
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by another person would follow. In other words, this test of obscenity is applied only to the publication before the court; and unless it can be shown that another publication flowed from it and so extended the area of publication, no other publication will be taken into consideration.
Clause 3 of the Bill, with eight subsections, merely does away with the Obscene Publications Act, 1857, of Lord Campbell, as your Lordships will see from subsection (8), and substitutes a very much stronger summary procedure against pornography. I need not read the clause at length, but I would draw your Lordships attention to the fact that in the first subsection there are added words providing that where:
"there is reasonable ground for suspecting that, in any premises in the petty sessions area for which he acts, or on any stall or vehicle in that area, being premises or a stall or vehicle specified in the information, obscene articles are, or are from time to time. kept for publication for gain, the justice may issue a warrant"
That provision is inserted at the instance of the police, who gave evidence before the Select Committee that many pornographic articles could not be searched for, or seized, because they were not on premises within the meaning of the Act; and that stalls or vehicles were habitually used for that purpose. Under this Bill it will he within the power of the police, to seize and search such stalls or vehicles. There is just one point to be added on subsection (1). Under the Act of Lord Campbell it was necessary, before a defendant could be convicted, for the prosecution to prove a sale. That has gone and it now means that the wholesaler in pornographic literature, as well as the retailer, can be struck at. The prosecution had immense difficulty from time to time in proving the sale, which was essential to be proved under the Act.
Subsection (2) of Clause 3 gives another additional power. Under the present law it is impossible for the police to seize documents and books. If they searched and found obscene articles they could seize those articles and bring them before the justices; but they could not seize the books to show the extent of the trade and matters of that kind. Now they will be able to do so, because that very valuable additional power has now been given. Subsection (3) deals merely with

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the procedure for bringing the alleged obscene articles before the justices; it provides that a summons may be issued to the owner or occupier of the premises where the goods were found, and he must come forward to the court and show cause why they should not be destroyed. There is a provision that if the person summoned does not appear an order cannot be made unless service of the summons is proved.
Under subsection (4) there is again a new right. In a case involving a publication called The Well of Loneliness, in which many years ago I appeared as counsel for the defence, the book had been written by a Miss Radclyffe Hall. The case, under the Act of Lord Campbell, came before Sir Chartris Biron in the courts, and the authoress had no voice whatever. When she attempted to speak she was sternly told by the magistrate that she would be ejected if she said another word. I may add that I had to read that book several times before I could discover the alleged obscenity, and it is now on sale in almost every bookseller's shop. That case shows that the extension of the doctrine of the Obscene Publications Act went to the theme, as it did in The Well of Loneliness; for the book was destroyed on the ground, not that there was a word of obscenity in it, not that there was an offensive expression from start to finish, but because of the theme of the book and Miss Radclyffe Hall had not condemned it. Under subsection (4), in addition to the person summoned, the man who has the premises or shop, the owner or author may come to the court and may claim to be heard, and will be heard, on the ground that he is defending the article against the charge of obscenity.
Subsection (5) deals with the machinery of appeal, with which I need not trouble your Lordships. Under subsection (6) there is a new provision which is rather topical at the present moment, because if a seizure is made and the proceedings fail before the justices, the justices have power to award costs against the informant who has caused the proceedings to be made. Subsection (7) provides that:
"The question whether an article is obscene shall be determined on the assumption that copies of it would be published in
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any manner likely having regard to the circumstances in which it was found…"
All that that means is this: that before one can seize and search one must give some evidence that one has reason to believe that on the premises or the stall, or wherever it may be, there are articles which are to be published or likely to be published for gain. This is the section by which the only test of publication is that it is likely in the special circumstances in which seizure was made. I have dealt with the clause very roughly and crudely, but Clause 3, with all its subsections, is in substitution for Lord Campbell's Act, which is repealed by subsection (8) of Clause 3.
Finally, my Lords, there is Clause 4, a very important clause, which I will not explain at any great length. It states:
"A person shall not be convicted of an offence against section two of this Act"—
that is, the publication of an obscene article—
"and an order for forfeiture shall not be made under the foregoing section, if it is proved that publication of the article in question is justified as being for the public good on the ground that it is in the interests of science, literature, art or learning, or of other objects of general concern."
The promoters of this Bill believe that to be a very valuable thing. It is designed in the true interests, not of the author or of the publisher but of literature in general. The value of the work in question will now have to be considered from a literary point of view, from a scientific point of view, from an educational point of view or from the point of view of any other merits. If there be passages in the book which are objectionable, or are felt to be objectionable, it must be considered as a whole; consideration must be given to whether those passages are relevant to the author's purpose and to the question whether he could have depicted the life he desired to depict in any other way.
Under subsection (2) of Clause 4 the opinion of experts may be admitted
"as to the literary, artistic, scientific or other merits of an article…"
Under the present law, in prosecutions for obscene libel scientific evidence has always been admitted. When Chief Justice Cockburn tried the case of Charles Bradlaugh and Mrs. Besant (and was, I must say, very favourable indeed to them) he allowed scientific evidence to be called and questioned the witnesses far

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beyond the limits of the scientific evidence, ascertaining whether there was anything improper in the publication of the pamphlet. Scientific evidence is always admissible. I would submit that evidence of specialists, where special knowledge is required, is permissible too. But it is now proposed to allow evidence to show whether a publication is of artistic or of literary value; and the promoters of the Bill believe that Clause 4 will do a great deal in the interests of literature.
So, my Lords, I present this Bill for its three purposes: the proper amendment of the law of obscenity; for the work it does in protecting that which is perhaps among the most valuable things which our country can possess, its literature, extending through very many centuries; and, finally, to strengthen the law against that evil thing which ought to be most sternly suppressed, pornography. For these reasons, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Birkett.)
3.26 p.m.
LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCE: My Lords, this matter is, of course, no Party question, and therefore my Party take no Party line with regard to it. But I feel convinced that I can say with assurance that most of those, at any rate, if not all, who sit behind me in this House will endorse the view I am proposing to express. We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Birkett—and it was no surprise to us—a masterly explanation of this Bill. I do not remember ever having listened in this House to so detailed and yet so concise and convincing a speech dealing with an intricate subject like the one to which we are addressing ourselves to-day. He has covered the ground so fully that it would be superfluous on my part to describe or further illuminate the principles of this Bill.
Perhaps I may be allowed to say just this, however. For several years past I have been in close association with the two principal authors' societies: the Society of Authors and the P.E.N. Club. I have known and appreciated the very strong objections which they have to the obscenity laws as they have been, and still are, and will be, until this Bill
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becomes law, because they felt that there were cases—there might be several cases —in which perfectly good, valuable and important books that it was desirable that persons should read could be and would be defamed by being classed as obscene libels; and that, I think, would be injurious to the publisher, to the author and to others, and would limit the opportunity the public would have of reading a book of literary and scientific and social importance. Therefore I have watched with the greatest interest the various attempts since (I think the noble Lord said) 1955, when the first Bill of this kind was introduced, to carry such a Bill into law and to get it through its various stages in the other place and to present it to your Lordships' House. I am certainly very happy that at last a Bill has been found of which the House of Commons could approve almost unanimously; and that is the case with this Bill which the noble Lord has presented to us for Second Reading to-day.
I am not going into the details of the Bill because the noble Lord has explained them so fully and so clearly, but the two main points about which the authors' societies were distressed were the fact that a book was not judged on its merits as a whole—whether it was for the public good; and, secondly, that in any trial for obscenity the proper persons, the author and the publisher, could not necessarily get a hearing in the courts at all. Those two serious evils are remedied by this Bill. The Bill is by profession a compromise Bill, and as such does not fulfil wholly the aspirations of those who introduced the original Bill in 1955. But though it is a compromise Bill, the compromise is, I believe, one that commends itself to both sides.
It is not for me to speak for the Government—no doubt the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack will give the Government's point of view when lie comes to wind up this debate—but I am entitled to speak for the authors' societies, and I will read to your Lordships what they say. Starting with the P.E.N. Club, I have here a letter from the secretary. He says:
"I think I can say definitely that the Bill is regarded as a compromise measure but we feel that if it is passed into law the position will have been immeasurably improved."

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The secretary of the Society of Authors writes:
"You may certainly say that the Bill has the approval and support of the Society of Authors."
In the course of his letter, he refers me to an article which appears in the Author, the publication of that Society, in which it is said:
"The Bill"—
which the noble Lord is introducing—
"embodies all the original objectives of the Herbert Committee except…that the Director of Public Prosecutions"
is not made responsible for all proceedings in the case. That is part of the compromise, and the article goes on to explain that it does not regard that omission as of first-rate importance. It says, further, that as one of the principles which have been embodied in the present final draft of the Bill
"an author and publisher will have the right (hitherto denied to them) to he heard in the defence of a book which it is proposed to destroy."
My Lords, there really does not remain anything further for me to add. It is a compromise Bill. I believe that the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor will say that it has the approval of the Government. It certainly has the approval of both these two authors' societies, whose words I have read to your Lordships this afternoon; and I think the House will be fully justified in giving what I hope will be unanimous approval to the Second Reading of this Bill.
3.33 p.m.
LORD DENNING: My Lords, I, too, would thank my noble and learned friend on his very clear exposition of this Bill. Here we have the continual question: where to draw the line between the proper use of freedom on the one hand, and the abuse of it on the other. To write literature is the proper use of freedom: to indulge in pornography is the abuse of it. It is, indeed, a continual problem. Even during the last day or two your Lordships will have seen that freedom of speech carries with it the freedom to criticise any sentence of the courts: but if any person should impute improper motives to a judge or a magistrate, that is an abuse of freedom. It is always a question of striking the
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right balance. I believe that, on the whole, this Bill does it, but I would suggest that it does not strengthen the law against pornography quite enough. I say that because, if you read the definition of "publication" in the first clause, you will see that it is confined to the dealer who distributes, circulates, sells or lets these articles. A wide field of pornography or obscenity is not covered.
Let me give you some illustrations concerning photographs and films—one has seen them in the courts—which deal with such things as nude bodies; obscenities whether hetero-sexual, homosexual, lesbian or sadist, portrayed in that way. Films can be smuggled into this country from another country exhibiting all those obscenities—and this was in the report of the Commissioner of Police for a cost of only some £50, and they are displayed in private circles, the price of £2 and £3 being paid for a seat. That type of obscenity is not covered by the definition of "publication" in this Bill.
Let me take another instance, which occurred in Liverpool only a little while ago. A bookseller obtained a perfectly reputable medical book and displayed it in his window, opening it at a page on which there was a diagram of the female sex organs. He did it for the purposes of his trade, to attract people to his shop. That is not covered by the provisions of this Bill. Nor, indeed, are the many cases where the police arrest a homosexual and find in his possession photographs which he has used to show to small boys or others, as the case may be. Nor are the organisations which employ photographers to photograph models, and who pay £3 an hour to these people for these nude photographs.
It is said that the matters which I have mentioned should be left for the Common Law to deal with, and should not be dealt with by this Bill. Let me tell your Lordships that the Common Law rests on only two old cases, which should be brought up to date. The first one was in the days of Charles II, in the year 1664. That was the case which started all our law on obscenity. In 1664 Sir Charles Sedley exposed his bare body on a balcony in Covent Garden, and accompanied his action with many obscene expressions. He was brought before the courts; the courts said it was high time

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this was an offence, and he was convicted. But they said that he was a member of an ancient family of the county of Kent and they did not want to ruin him but to reform him, and they only fined him 2,000 marks, the coinage of the day, sent him to prison for one week, and bound him over to be of good behaviour for three years. That one case is the foundation of our law on what I may call visual obscenity.
The remaining case, in 1875, was where there was a booth on Epsom Downs on Derby Day, inside which there was a grossly indecent exhibition. We have not the details, but there was a payment for entrance; and that was held to be a Common Law offence of obscenity. Our law against such matters as those about which I have told your Lordships—of these films which can be brought into England and shown in this surreptitious way—depends entirely on those two cases. Surely such conduct should also be brought within this Bill: not just left to the old Common Law, but brought within these new enforcement provisions. It is said that if this were done it might strike at stage plays or at public films, but I trust that the authorities—the Lord Chamberlain and the British Board of Film Censors—know well how to protect those publications. All I ask is for the law to be strengthened by making that definition of "publication" cover the instances which I have given. I understood that my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack was going to propose an Amendment. I hope the Amendment will be such as to cover those cases. That is my first point.
My second point is this. I wonder whether the Bill goes far enough in the protection of literature, because this "defence of the public good", as it is called, is a separate matter altogether. Your Lordships will notice that the first subsection says that an article is obscene if it tends to deprave and corrupt persons who are likely to read, see, or hear it. It is only after it is found against the publication that it tends to deprave or corrupt, as a separate and distinct issue altogether, that the defence have to say: "I justify this for the public good." It seems to me that if it has already been held that it tends to deprave and corrupt those who are likely to read, see or hear it, it is very difficult for the defence to prove that it is for the public good.
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The two things are almost inconsistent, and this question of the interests of literature and art ought not to be in a separate definition at the end of the Bill; it ought to be brought into the very definition of obscenity itself.
Let me again draw upon the old law in this matter. Until 1868 there was no difficulty; the interests of literature came well into the purview of the courts. My noble and learned friend referred to the case in 1727, in which a pornographer who issued a pamphlet, whose contents your Lordships can easily judge by its title—Venus in the Cloister: the Nun in her Smock—was convicted. But only six years later, in a case before Lord Hardwicke (Dr. Samuel Johnson is the only one who records it and surely he had a good interest in literature) Richard Savage, the poet, was indicted for obscenity. He had written a pamphlet called The Progress of a Divine: the Profligate Life of a Curate in his Progress from a Curacy to a Deanery. Lord Hardwicke ruled that the test of obscenity was whether there was an intent in the mind of the author to promote the practice of vice, and he exalted the literary qualities of Richard Savage's work. Savage was acquitted. Even in 1733, as that was, it was decided, in the interests in literature, that the merits of a work had to be taken into consideration. It was only when we came to 1868, in mid-Victorian times, that it was ruled that the courts do not look into the merits of a book or at the good objects of the person who wrote it.
I should like to test this final clause by taking two specimen cases and asking whether they would now be justified under our law. I would take the case of The Queen v. Hicklin in 1868, referred to by my noble and learned friend. It was a case where a Protestant movement published a pamphlet seeking, as they thought, to expose the dangers of the confessional. What they did was to select extracts from theological writers in Latin describing in that language all the vices which flesh is heir to, and on the opposite pages they put the English translation, their comment being that this was issued for the instruction of priests and showed how they might put their ideas into other people's minds. The object of the pamphlet was perfectly good or justifiable, but it was held to be obscene, and the

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court could not look into the merits of it. Of course, if it was any defence to say that it was for the public good, there might be a conflict of opinion on the Bench, depending on religious opinions. Is that the right way to judge of such a matter as this?
The other case I would cite is that of Lady Chatterley's Lover, by D. H. Lawrence. This book has recently been held to be obscene by the Supreme Court of Japan. I wonder whether it would be so held in this country under this clause. Is it justified as being for the public good? I would ask that the clause in defence and protection of literature be so expressed that works like that, whether literary works or works of criticism or of one kind or another, should not be in a separate category where the defence has to justify that they are for the public good, but should be part and parcel of the test of obscenity. It should be held that the court should consider the merits of a work in the interests of literature, science, art, learning or of other objects of general concern—in effect, therefore, that this last clause should not be a separate defence but should come into the test of obscenity. These are in the way of small points. The Bill as a whole is very welcome, because it does a great deal to put the law on the right footing. I put forward these suggestions only in the hope that they may effect a small improvement.
3.46 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, in the light of the great eloquence and learning of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Birkett, who moved the Second Reading of this Bill, and of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, I am rather like my noble friend Lord Pethik-Lawrence in having little that I can add beyond stating my own interest as a friend of those who have on occasion been placed in jeopardy by the uncertainty of the law in this matter. The noble Lord, Lord Birkett, referred to certain cases in 1955. In that year there were five prosecutions of publishers, all of them of repute. I do not know whether this Bill would have completely freed them from the risk of prosecution, but in two of those cases the publishers were acquitted in two cases there were convictions, and in one—and this is perhaps the most objectionable of all—
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the jury disagreed, not once I understand but twice, and the distinguished publisher, Mr. Frere, one of the best-known names in British publishing, found himself in an intolerable position.
None of your Lordships, I hope, is likely to find himself in jeopardy as a writer, either under the existing law or under any future law; but publishers are in a different position. They have to take decisions on whether it is in the public interest to publish something and whether they might be faced with a financial loss—because publishing can be a very hazardous trade; and as one publisher, Mr. Warburg, said, the risk of a publisher finding himself in court faced with a charge of this kind must be a severe discouragement to publishers to show the boldness and freedom of thought that in a free country we expect to find from our publishers, as we expect from our writers.
I am encouraged by the clear indication so far that your Lordships will not hold up or seriously alter a Bill which, after so many tedious days of discussion in another place and outside, has finally been brought to us. Until I heard the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, I was inclined to make a plea that the addition which the Government had in mind of the words "to lend or to give" should not be made. This was discussed in another place, and on a free vote it was decided that the proposed words should not be added. I confess, however, that the force of the argument of the noble and learned Lord is such that, unless some stronger arguments are produced to the contrary to make me feel that this extension is unnecessary, I must support the noble and learned Lord.
I should like to know whether it will achieve the purpose which the noble and learned Lord seeks to achieve, but I take it that he is satisfied that it will be adequate. However, we shall have an opportunity of discussing this matter in Committee. All I would say now is that it will be for the Government to make it abundantly clear that it is necessary, and that there is no other device of law by which these undesirable tendencies and developments can be covered. We live in a country which is free from censor-ship, but there are other countries, not so far away, where censorship is still practised. As our country, our democracy

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and our people mature, I hope that less and less will it be necessary for the law to provide protection in these matters; and I am sure that that is a sentiment which will commend itself to the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack. So I hope that, when this particular matter comes before us again, we shall look at it with great care.
I feel that it is desirable that this Bill should not be changed too much. We frequently have the argument, as we have had on other occasions, that to attempt to improve a Bill on which there is agreement outside Parliament involves the danger of the disruption of that Bill. That is obviously an argument that we ought to be chary of accepting. Nevertheless, this Bill has had a chequered career, and I hope that it will not be placed in jeopardy by changes which will send it back to another place for debate all over again on some of the matters on which agreement was finally achieved. I would add just this. It will now be for the police to do their duty, both under this Bill, and, I would say, under existing legislation, in dealing with pornography. I hope that when this Bill is passed into law the rather unenviable reputation which this country has, that it combines the most flourishing trade in pornography with the least security for serious writers, will disappear.
3.52 p.m.
LORD SOMERVELL OF HARROW: My Lords, my excuse for troubling your Lordships for a few moments in support of my noble and learned friend Lord Birkett and of this Bill is that from 1936 to 1945, when I was Attorney-General, I lived with the subject to some extent. I had an arrangement with the then Director of Public Prosecutions that any question of obscene libel or any form of libel, would be referred to me if he thought that there was a possibility of prosecution. So my knowledge of the allegedly obscene writings from 1936 to 1945 was quite considerable, and there were one or two conclusion's which formed in my mind. I was at that time rather in favour of what I know has been discussed—namely, central control. But that has been rejected, and the present Attorney-General put forward some formidable arguments against it. I should not for a moment wish to raise that issue on this Bill, not only on the
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principle that "dog does not eat dog," but because I may well have been wrong.
The other conclusion to which I came was that it would be, I think, almost impossible to find a formula which would, as it were, be bound to give a clear lead to prosecuting authorities, and indeed to the courts, in all cases which might arise. It is one of those difficult areas on which public opinion changes from time to time, and every sort of ingredient may enter into any particular case in different degrees. The other general conclusion to which I came, which your Lordships may think is in slight contradiction of what have just said, is that, broadly speaking, there is little difficulty in distinguishing between pornography and the class of case which it is intended to protect by Clause 4 of this Bill. They really differ as chalk from cheese.
I should like to say a word or two on the point made by my noble and learned friend Lord Denning on Clause 4. He said that it might have been, as it were, brought up into the definition. Well, it might have been. But I hope—and I think this will happen—that the Bill, when it becomes an Act, like the allegedly obscene matter, will be read as a whole, and will be approached ab initio having regard to the fact that Clause 4 is there. My noble and learned friend thought that Clause 4 might be altered, but I think there is great force in what fell from the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, that the fewer alterations that are made at this stage the better. Clause 4 does, I think, assume that the interests of literature are an element n the public good, and that may to some extent meet the point raised by my noble and learned friend. Something in the nature of Clause 4 is obviously an essential ingredient in any intelligible policy on this matter. I would only say, in conclusion, casting my mind back to the matters that I endeavoured to have in mind when I was considering cases during that period, from 1936 to 1945, that this Bill seems to me to set out in clear words considerations of that sort, and I very much hope that it will reach the Statute Book.
3.58 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, on the whole I should like to support the Motion that this Bill be read a second time. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Birkett, who moved the Motion,

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was kind enough to indicate to me the other day the main considerations on which he proposed to ask your Lordships to give the Bill a Second Reading. Unfortunately, I had an engagement which prevented me from being here at the time when he was expounding them, no doubt with his usual felicity and cogency. I do not think there is much to add, and certainly nothing which I could add in anything like the language for which the noble and learned Lord is famous, in support of this Bill. But as one who has taken a great interest in the problem of civil liberties for many years, and also had the interesting, and in some ways burdensome, task of teaching our criminal law to Bar students for a number of years, I should like to say that, in so far as this Bill makes the law more certain—and I feel that it does —it will, if your Lordships accept it in its present form, undoubtedly be of considerable advantage from the point of view of the administration of the law and from the point of view of the problem which the police come up against from time to time in deciding whether they will prosecute in cases of this kind.
The law relating to obscene publications in this country has, I think one can say, never been particularly satisfactory. Even at Common Law the situation was not, in my reading of legal history, at any rate, at all a satisfactory one, and the Act of 1857, which Lord Campbell intended to lead to an improvement in the situation, as has often been pointed out, resulted in a worse situation than ever, largely as a result of the interpretation put upon it by the famous Lord Chief Justice, Lord Cockburn. Indeed, of recent years I do not think it would be untrue to say that this country has been the laughing stock of most civilised countries in respect of this particular matter. Therefore, if this Bill does liberalise the law, as it appears to do, at any rate to some extent, and to make it more certain, undoubtedly it will have achieved a most valuable and important public objective. I cannot myself feel that it goes quite as far as I should have liked it to do. Undoubtedly over the centuries this country has, from the legal point of view, been the great leader of the world in respect of the safeguarding of the civil liberties, upon which our democratic institutions have been built
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up and secured. While, perhaps, this aspect of the matter is not absolutely in the front line of civil liberty problems, nevertheless it is a very important aspect from that point of view.
Having looked at this subject over a number of years, I should have liked to see a Bill which went rather further than this one does. Nevertheless, as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, has pointed out, a compromise has been effected over a number of years and with a great deal of to-ing and fro-ing in another place. It seems to me that, on the whole, those of us who feel that the Bill might have gone further will be well advised to accept this compromise, and try to get the Bill on the Statute Book as soon as possible without any further arguments and delays. Therefore I feel strongly in sympathy with the views of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, who addressed your Lordships a minute or two ago. Even if I were assured that by waiting for a year or two I would get a Bill which I should like better, I should be tempted to give my vote for this particular measure, because it seems to me important that we should get an improved situation and get a measure upon the Statute Book which leads to a more liberal and, above all, a more certain state of the law. That argument does not need to be rubbed in any more. I think that this Bill will undoubtedly achieve that object; therefore, for what it is worth, I lend my support to the noble Lord.
4.4 p.m.
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, I, too, desire to support the Second Reading of this Bill, although I cannot claim to offer your Lordships any personal experience as an author. I have never embarked upon that particular profession, but I think I happen to be the only member of your Lordships' House who was a member of the Select Committee to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Birkett, referred in his opening remarks. I thought that it might conceivably be helpful if I expressed the views which I know struck me upon that Committee as a result of what the noble and learned Lord quite rightly said was an exceedingly exhaustive inquiry into the whole of this problem. I appreciate that the Bill which was then before Parliament is not the same Bill as is now before

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your Lordships' House, but the problem with which we were confronted is the same, and the evidence which we received, I think, would undoubtedly have been the same evidence had there been a Select Committee inquiring from the basis of this particular Bill.
As has been made quite clear already, the Bill has two main objects, and to myself, having been through all the evidence and heard everything that was said to us on that Committee—and I would stress that this is only a personal view of my own—the first of those objects is a comparatively unimportant one. I stress again the word, "comparatively", because I know from what has already been said this afternoon that that first object is considered by several of your Lordships to be of great importance, and I know that it is of great importance to a number of authors. But I hope to be able to convince your Lordships that, compared to the whole problem which we are seeking to resolve by this Bill, that first object is of comparative unimportance. I would define the first object, not so well as has already been defined to your Lordships, as the freedom for authors of repute to write as they think fit on matters which some people would consider to be of doubtful taste.
The second object, one which I personally consider to be of vital importance to the community, is to help to free the community from the presentation to it, by typescripts, photographs, films and books, of purely filthy, contaminating and disgusting dirt. That is what is generally referred to as pornography: what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Birkett, so rightly described, in a much better phrase, as "Dirt for dirt's sake." I think one must almost add to that, "Dirt for money's sake". With regard to the first object, the question of the author's right of freedom, we heard a very great deal of evidence, and I think we probably heard the opinions of those best qualified to represent the people who claim to have suffered as a result of the existing law. Having referred to the existing law, may I say, in passing, how personally grateful I am to the noble and learned Lord for the clarity and brilliance of his exposition of the present law which I think, at this late, almost too late, stage I, as a general practitioner in the law, now understand for the first time in my life.
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The question of the author's right loomed so very large that one of the things which not only I but some of my colleagues on the Committee were continually seeking to ascertain was how it could be assessed in volume—how many books were in fact concerned; how many authors were prejudiced or felt frustrated as a result of the present law; what proportion of the total publication of works was involved in the sense of literary frustration, and what proportion was known to be pornographic. The utmost we could ascertain—and there appeared to be no exceedingly clear evidence was that under this first heading during the past ten years or so a total of some five books had been challenged in our courts. Not all those books had been condemned, nor had they been subjects of prosecution. Some had been destroyed. There was one case in which the book itself, in one edition, was held not to be obscene, but when it came out in an illustrated edition it was held that the illustration rendered the whole obscene, and consequently a destruction order was made.
I mention those facts particularly to indicate that it is not an overwhelming problem; that the number of books even challenged is comparatively small. So far as we gathered from the police, from Scotland Yard, from the provincial police, and from the Customs and Excise, they virtually disregarded that type of book. They had no interest in it. They were not out to try to catch and condemn per se books of that quality or class. In fact they were carrying on their duties in a logical, common sense sort of way which I am quite sure would have met with the approval of any of your Lordships. In fact one of the few things upon which both Sir Alan Herbert and the Commissioner of Police agreed was that one of these books which were challenged they had both found so boring that they had not been able to complete their reading of it. That is why I venture to say to your Lordships that, in my personal opinion, on this aspect of the matter, this point of the Bill, the object is comparatively unimportant.
After all, authors of repute, if they do suffer to some extent as a result of having a destruction order made on their books or their book, can always recoup themselves, if in fact they are authors of

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repute, by writing another book on the right side of the borderline. It is so vitally essential not to lower that borderline, because if you lower the borderline for books of repute or works of literary or artistic merit you automatically raise the borderline for pornography. And despite what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Somervell of Harrow, said just now, they are not so different as "chalk and cheese", and I hope to give your Lordships an illustration that the borderline is very narrow indeed.
Before I come on to that, however, it is only fair to add one thing. We did have evidence that it was not only the actual number of books which had been challenged in the courts, which led to a sense of frustration among authors, but also the fact that other books had not seen the light of day, and had not been published, because of the attitude which was adopted towards them by operatives throughout the printing and publishing trades. They themselves, apparently, exercise a certain amount of censorship: they feel that if a book which they are asked to set up in print is one which may be challenged in the courts it is contrary to their dignity and their propriety that they should have anything to do with it. Now, my Lords, I do not think I am the only one in this House who has a great respect for, and confidence in, our jury system in this country; and if trade union operatives, or non-trade union operatives, adopt the view that it would be undesirable to publish something which they are asked to set up in print I myself would have a very great respect for their opinion. It may well be that what they would consider it undesirable to publish would, in fact, be the general view of public opinion. To my mind, to the extent that authors and publishers have been frustrated from this cause I have little sympathy with them, because I think that the cause was probably a very good one and that more likely than not that exceptional and peculiar jury censorship, or censorship by jury system, operated in the right way.
To turn shortly to this question of pornography, I would remind your Lordships that there is no definition of pornography apart from the definition that we have in Common Law, which has been
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referred to, of obscene publication; and the nearest we could get to what is pornography was obvious obscenity. But I venture to submit that, with the exception of those of you who have held the office of Secretary of State for Home Affairs and those noble and learned Lords who have held high judicial office, it is exceedingly unlikely that any one of you has any real conception not only of the extent but also of the type of the material we are referring to when we talk about pornography. The real vital object of this Bill is to strengthen the hands of the police and the other authorities in trying to stamp out this bestial and filthy trade.
As the police themselves know it, pornography is that which is calculated to appeal, either by the written word or by photography, to the most bestial aspects of sexual intercourse and sadism. If you compare the number of those five books to which I have referred which have been challenged in the courts with the amount of the pornographic material which is seized or destroyed, or is made the subject of prosecutions in this country, your Lordships will, I think, understand why I consider that the first object of the Bill is comparatively unimportant.
Let me take only two years since the war—and I am deliberately omitting the year 1954, because that is a year of argument and an exceptional year in the story and history of the literature of all sorts in this country: one fairly high and one fairly low. In 1951, there were 322 convictions or destruction orders made. There were 108,000 items destroyed. There were nearly £6,000 of fines imposed, and there were sentences imposed which ran from six weeks to two years. In 1956, a comparatively low year, there were 80 convictions or destruction orders made; there were nearly 30,000 items destroyed; £1,724 imposed by way of fines, and sentences imposed which ran from two months to one year. We examined a very wide selection of this material, books from France, books and typescripts published over here, films which mostly come from the United States. May I say, in passing, that if, as I am sure is the case, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, is correct in saying that this Bill is insufficient to catch these films, then I should favour

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any Amendment which might be introduced in order to ensure that this most disgusting method of dissemination of filth is eliminated. Your Lordships will, of course, appreciate that the films we are talking about are not the ones which are seen in cinemas. They are, as the noble and learned Lord indicated, small miniature films which are shown in private clubs and private houses to a very selective audience indeed.
I can assure your Lordships that things of this sort, packets of playing cards and so on, which are smuggled into this country, and above all the mass of photographs which come in, are designed solely to titillate and excite the lowest and most bestial instincts of human nature. The majority are of a sexual character, but there are many which are purely sadistic —packets of photographs which can be bought here in London at a regular, set price showing flagellations of women by men, and vice versa, and all that sort of thing. It is not at all nice to remember having seen them, and your Lordships will appreciate that it is still less nice to have to talk about them, but I feel that it is rather one's duty, having had to investigate this matter, to do what one can to try to impress upon your Lordships the essential importance of not lowering the borderline, and of not doing anything to reduce the improvements which are contained in this Bill, and the balance which it presents, so continuing to handicap the police in their efforts to put an end to this horrible business. I know that there is not a single Member of your Lordships House who would not be horrified and disgusted to find in his own home even one of the sort of items which we are discussing today.
I have referred to this borderline and I want to come back to that in view of what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Somervell of Harrow, was saying. We happen to have had brought to our notice a production in the form of a booklet which was bought quite openly at a bookstall where, I have little doubt, many of your. Lordships buy your evening papers as you go home. That booklet was typical of its kind, containing about twenty photographs of naked women in different poses and postures. As the law stands today, that is a perfectly proper publication; it is not obscene. The reason why it is not obscene, or is not held to be
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obscene, is because it can be claimed to be a work of artistic merit. There is artistry—it was a very well produced booklet which was shown to us—in the composition of the photographs and in the actual photography itself. There is artistry in the lighting of the photographs and in the general publication. Your Lordships may well feel that there is not a great deal of harm in twenty photographs of naked women; but you would feel that there is a great deal of harm in the two pages of advertisements at each end of the booklet. The main purpose of the booklet is simply to lead you on, or to lead on all those who can be induced to buy the booklet, so that they get further and further into the welter of this filthy business.
It is this borderline of literary or artistic merit which means so much. We tried to find out what literary merit was. None of the witnesses who came before us could, or would, claim to define it—indeed, considering the fact that the majority of them are, presumably, going to be the expert witnesses who are entitled to be called under this Bill, it will be most interesting for those learned counsel who cross-examine to refer to the evidence which they gave before the Committee as to their own capacity to express a view upon literary merit. It is, at the lowest, evident that these specialists are already disagreeing in no small measure as to what works have literary merit or not. On the one in question to which I referred just now, and which Sir Alan Herbert and the Chief Commissioner of Police found so boring, I asked Sir Alan whether he considered it was of literary merit, and he said, Yes, he supposed it was, but it was so boring. I said, "Does that not affect the literary merit of the work?" He said, "Oh, no." So I think there will be some most interesting evidence given by the expert witnesses when this matter comes before the courts.
My Lords, finally, I desire to urge your Lordships not to push the borderline back any further. It is so easy to make the dissemination of this corrupting filth more profitable—and it is the profit in it at the present time which naturally creates the market for it. I have little doubt myself that it is having a strong influence upon the present trend of juvenile delinquency. I believe that if we

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could stop this pornography it would largely work in aid of stopping juvenile delinquency, and would strengthen the hands of the authorities to deal with the producers, the wholesalers and the distributors of this muck. I beg your Lordships, out of sympathy (and very well placed sympathy) for those authors who feel a sense of frustration owing to the possibility of challenge of their works in the courts, that you will not move the borderline back so as to make pornography still easier.
4.27 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I shall detain the House for only a very few minutes. The lawyers who have addressed the House on this Bill are of great eminence and I should not have thought it at all necessary to add anything but for the fact that my noble friend who has just addressed us said a few things with which I most emphatically disagree. I think that the reform of the law which this Bill attempts to achieve is long overdue. I believe it is necessary for all the reasons so brilliantly marshalled in the speech of my noble and learned friend Lord Birkett, with which the debate opened. I should like to join in the tribute which he paid to the work of my friend, Sir Alan Herbert, and of the honourable Member for Stechford in another place. I think that they will have enriched the law when this Bill reaches the Statute Book.
The point on which I differ from my noble friend who has just sat down is in thinking that the injury done to authors is limited by the fact that perhaps only five books were concerned. That really is not the case. As long as the Hicklin judgment laid down the law on this subject, although it may be that few serious and valuable works were endangered, there was no certainty about that; there was great uncertainty about what book might at any moment find itself the subject of prosecution. The noble Lord, Lord Birkett, mentioned some of the masterpieces of English literature, any one of which might possibly have been brought within the words of the Hicklin judgment. I quite agree that, most fortunately, successive Administrations and prosecutors were much too sensible to work the law in that way; but it is not worthy of an adult people, with a great
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literature of the past and, I hope, with a great literature of the future, to curb itself for ever with the words of the Hicklin judgment.
That is really the only thing I wish to say, except to add one word about the speech of my noble and learned friend Lord Somervell of Harrow. I agree with him entirely. It is perhaps not surprising that I should, because I had the honour of serving him as his Parliamentary Private Secretary during the years from 1936 to 1942—although he did not give me any of these works to read. I entirely agree with him that those books which we are endeavouring to hit, the pornographic books, and those which we desire should be protected under Clause 4, are as different as chalk and cheese. I believe that that is absolutely true.
The effect of this Bill, when it becomes an Act, will make it very much easier for the prosecution to deal with pornography. If it has the effect of making people very doubtful, when they get outside the sphere of pornography, of what would be the result of a prosecution in relation to a very different type of book, I do not think that that will be any great public disaster. In fact, I believe that any reform of the law which gets rid of the Hicklin judgment as the final test and makes it easier to deal with pornography will do a great public good, even if the wording of some of the clauses (for instance Clause 4) may leave something to be desired. For those reasons I join with those who have commended this Bill wholeheartedly and look forward to its passage into law.
4.32 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am sure that the first thing your Lordships would desire me to do is once again to congratulate and thank my noble and learned friend Lord Birkett for the admirable way in which he has placed this Bill before the House. I was very glad that my noble and learned friend said something of the history of this matter and reminded your Lordships that the movement began five years ago, in 1954, and that for two or three years there was no progress in another place—because it is important to realise that this is a subject which many people find one of great difficulty and on which there is acute divergence of views.

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My noble and learned friend said, and I entirely agree, that the action which contributed most to providing a chance for the introduction of amending legislation was the lengthy and painstaking deliberations of the Select Committee of the House of Commons. We are fortunate in having among us my noble friend Lord Brentford, who bas given us an account of the difficulties and problems which. that Select Committee shad to face. It is a fact that the Bill before the House to-day very largely follows the recommendations of that Select Committee. Having listened carefully to every speech that has been delivered this afternoon. I believe that the proposition that there should be a law of obscene publications is not an issue which has been seriously debated this afternoon or one which can be seriously questioned. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, came nearest to doing so, but certainly he did not adopt the view that there should be no restriction on publication. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, thought of it as a future desideratum but not as a present possibility.
I believe most people would agree that it is right for the community to seek to protect itself from the corruption of pornography as we have heard it described—that is, the commercialised and deliberate use of filth for filth's sake—and that it is a proper function of the law to do so. It is interesting—and I put it on record again—that my noble and learned friend Lord Birkett was the first to admit, and no one has questioned it throughout the debate, that the deliberate pornographer is a real, persisting and sinister figure in our life to-day; and that has to be faced. But in seeking to provide this protection for the weak, again, I entirely agree that we have to take care that we do not impose excessive or unreasonable restraints on creative work.
It is the case of the promoters of this Bill that experience of the existing law has shown it to be too severe in its dealings with work of a literary or artistic character. I have been told—I have never actually checked it, but, on the other hand, no one has ever contradicted the fact—that owing to threats of a proseation based on tests of Jude the Obscure Thomas Hardy decided that he would write no further novels. Stated
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bluntly like that, it is such a terrifying proposition that I believe everyone must come with a fresh mind to the law as it exists. I am bound to say that, as in all matters that give rise to public controversy, the case for reform has perhaps sometimes been a little overstated so far as quantity is concerned. I want to put. that, as I am trying to put everything in this speech, in proper proportion.
We have heard that there were five prosecutions of publishers or authors of novels undertaken by the Director of Public Prosecutions in 1954 which resulted in two convictions and three acquittals, one of the acquittals being after two disagreements, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton; but, apart from these, legal proceedings in respect of books of similar character have been very few and far between. It is therefore perhaps something of an exaggeration to refer, as did one Sunday paper recently, to
"the procession of responsible citizenry into the dock in the Old Bailey."
That is not a picture which has any foundation, and it is important that we should try to avoid exaggeration. I do not believe anyone would accuse me of overstating the real problem. On the other hand, I think it is important that we should not give an impression of our country which is utterly false and unsupported by the figures. Nevertheless, although the case has sometimes been presented in exaggerated terms, Her Majesty's Government accept that reputable publishers and authors have a legitimate claim to some amelioration of the present law in their favour.
At the same time, Parliament has a duty to be careful that the changes introduced in the interests of literature and art do not weaken the sanction of the law against pornography. It is fair for me to say at once, as my noble and learned friend Lord Birkett has said with great charm and courtesy, that although, of course, the responsibility for the Bill depends on him and those who are behind him, Her Majesty's Government share to a considerable extent with the sponsors of the Bill responsibility for the actual content of the Bill as presented to the House; for much of the wording to be found in the Bill is, as he said, the result of Amendments proposed by the Government during the passage of the Bill through another place. This fact enables

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me to advise your Lordships' House that, in the Government's view, the Bill (with the exception of the definition of what is meant by publish" in subsection (3) of clause 1, to which I will return) is a workable Bill; that the changes made in the interests of literature and art are valuable and adequate, and that these changes will not weaken the effectiveness of the law as an instrument against pornography.
As regards the details of the Bill, I think it is only necessary for me to refer to Clause 4, which deals with the point to which the sponsors of the Bill attach the greatest store. As we have heard continually throughout this debate, it has long been a matter of concern to publishers and authors that the existing law does not permit the giving of expert evidence by authors and literary critics in defence of a serious work in respect of which proceedings are taken, and it has been the primary objective of the Society of Authors to bring about some change which would enable such evidence to be given.
Perhaps your Lordships will bear with me if I say just a word about that problem. The reason why hitherto the courts have been unwilling to admit expert evidence in prosecutions for obscene libel or in destruction order proceedings under the Act of 1857 is that, under the existing law, the only question to be decided is whether the matter charged has a tendency to deprave and corrupt, to which expert evidence about literary or artistic merit—I ask your Lordships to note the word "merit" has not been thought relevant. It is partly to meet this situation that the Bill provides, in Clause 4, a new special defence, the defence of the public good, under which it is open to a person charged with publishing an obscene work, or opposing destruction of such a work, to prove first that the publication of the article in question is justified as being for the public good and, secondly, that it is in the interests of science, literature, art or learning or of other objects of general concern.
It was originally the view of Her Majesty's Government that this was as far as the law need or ought to go. We thought that it would be for a defendant seeking to establish the defence of the public good to lay before The court in
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support of that argument evidence of fact: for example, that the book concerned was included in a syllabus of study in a particular branch of learning, or evidence of opinion from an expert which would give detailed reasons for his opinion that the publication of the work was in the interests of literature. It was arguable that the admissibility of the evidence could be left to the court. The sponsors of the Bill, however, were not satisfied that this would go far enough; and it was to meet their misgivings that subsection (2) has been added to Clause 4, which declares
"…that the opinion of experts as to the literary, artistic, scientific or other merits of an article may be admitted…"
I ask your Lordships to note why it may be admitted: in order
"to establish or to negative the said ground";
and the ground is that it is in the interests of science or literature or learning.
My noble and learned friend Lord Denning has expressed doubt on this point, and I always attach the greatest importance to any doubts that he has. I am not going to make this even more of a "lawyer's holiday" than it has been (I believe that two laymen have had the temerity to intervene in this debate so far) but I would refer my noble and learned friend to this fact. He may be interested to see that in the 1950 edition of Stephen's Digest of the Criminal Law it is submitted that such a defence would apply even under the existing law. I am not going into the reason, because I am sure my noble and learned friend will follow it up, but he rather put the dilemma that this deals with something that is admittedly obscene and that then it is necessary to show that it is in the public good, on the ground that it is in the interests of literature. As I understood my noble and learned friend's speech, he felt that that was rather a dilemma—how could something that is obscene be in the public good?
No doubt many of your Lordships could give much better examples, but may I give one that has been in my mind since I have been considering this matter? In the literature of my own country, Scotland—and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Mathers, will agree with me in this —one of the most important fields of Scottish poetry is Scottish satiric verse; and Scottish satiric verse is chiefly to be

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found in the period (I think the noble Lord would agree) from James I of Scotland to Burns, roughly from 1400 to 1796. I think it is great poetry. I think it is one of the most unique contributions to the history of my country. But I should not for a moment say that anyone trying to give a picture of Scottish satiric verse from 1400 to 1796 would not be compelled to include passages that are obscene; indeed, it would be utterly impossible to produce that picture without doing so. I should be quite prepared to give evidence if I had any expertise, but I should certainly be prepared to express the view—and do—that it is in the interests of literature that the satiric poetry of Scotland should not be allowed to disappear. It should be reproduced and handed on, because it is, I think, as I have said, one of the great products of the literature of my country. I give that as an example. I am sure that noble Lords can find much better ones, but it happens to be one near my own heart.
My Lords, that is the sort of thing that I have in mind. I agree that a provision of this kind, dealing with the admissibility of expert evidence, is a novel one which finds no precedent in our Statute Law; but I think that the law relating to obscene publications is of a sufficiently different character from the rest of the criminal law to justify a departure.
Now may I say a word on the other point to which my noble and learned friend Lord Denning referred, on which Lord Shackleton issued some warning words, and on which Lord Birkett said that he was prepared sympathetically (I do not want to put it too high) to consider the difficulties that the Government find on this point; and that is as to the definition of "publish" in subsection (3) of Clause 1. In our view, there are two respects in which this definition does not go far enough. First, it does not cover the case in which a person gives or lends obscene matter to somebody who is liable to be corrupted by it. Again—one has got to face it—this is a not unfamiliar gambit of the pornographer or the sexual aberrationist with children and adolescents. It is one of the facts of existence, for which we have a responsibility. It is one of the ways in which these horrible people approach the young; not to sell them, but to give them, or lend them,
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sexually exciting pictures. Now I do not think that that is a responsibility which we can abrogate. Certainly I cannot, after three years as Home Secretary.
It is true that where such a person makes a habit of doing this he might be said to be distributing or circulating the obscene matter, and so to be caught by the Bill: but, short of this, it would be necessary, if he was out of the Bi11, to commence a prosecution at Common Law. Then you would have one count of your prosecution under the Bill and another count at Common Law, where you would be applying a different standard of obscenity. It seems to me that there is no way out that way, and that the proper course is to amend the Bill to make it clear that it extends to all cases in which someone shows obscene matter to a person whom it may tend to corrupt. I know that in another place some anxiety was expressed as to whether this might not render liable to prosecution somebody who had lent a book to a friend; but I cannot believe there is any real ground for anxiety on this score. In a case of that kind it is inconceivable that any proceedings would be launched, primarily because there would be no complaint and, further, because, if there were, the new test of obscenity provided by Clause I would result in an acquittal on the ground that the lending of the book was not likely to corrupt anyone.
There is one further respect in which Clause 1 (3) does not, in our view, go far enough. We think it should cover such things as private film shows of grossly obscene films. That is one of the points which my noble friend Lord Brentford had in mind. Again your Lordships must face the fact that shows in houses or rooms of clubs of grossly obscene films are one of the evils of life which exist. There always have been places that try to attract people to shows of that kind, and I think that they ought to be struck at. There is no need to cover ordinary cinema performances. for the existing arrangements work perfectly well in relation to cinemas, just as they do in relation to television and sound broadcasting: and I did tell my noble and learned friend Lord Birkett that I was perfectly prepared that they should he safeguarded by a proviso, and I think that in fact he has the proviso which I suggest would do it.

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My Lords, my noble and learned friend said that he wanted to consider further the effect of the proposed Amendment to Clause 1 (3) on the subject of stage plays. I may tell your Lordships that the new paragraph (3) which we propose to add to Clause 1 deals only with the showing, placing or projecting of an article containing or embodying matter to be looked at, or a record; it is clear that it cannot extend to the performance of any play. Finally, of course, plays are dealt with by the Lord Chamberlain: but, otherwise, if one had a live performance that was obscene, it would have to be dealt with by the Common Law and not under this Bill. There is no intention, and my Amendment, as I construe it, would not have this result, of affecting such plays at all.
As I have said, we are all anxious to catch the real pornographer—the person who is either peddling filth or is personally using filth for his own unpleasant excitement. Nobody has ever said that on principles of liberty that person should be left out. What we have found as the difficulty is drawing the line which will catch that person but which will not catch the works published in the interests of literature, and the like, which I have mentioned. I believe that this Bill is a reasonable measure which does both these things. It gives some assurance to reputable publishers and others that the law will not unreasonably and unduly interfere with creative artists, while at the same time it preserves adequate safeguards against the exploitation of the young and the weak for corrupt purposes. I should have liked to thank everyone—and in fact I think I have referred to practically everyone who has taken part in this debate. I have enjoyed all the speeches; and I am very glad to say that the view of Her Majesty's Government is that the House can reasonably and properly give the Bill a Second Reading.
4.59 p.m.
LORD BIRKETT: My Lords, I will not detain the House at this stage more than a very few moments, particularly in view of the observations which have just been made by my noble and learned friend upon the Woolsack. I repeat how grateful I am, on behalf of the promoters of this Bill, for the approval
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which he has been pleased to give to the Bill on behalf of the Government. All that I should like to do, in just a few words, is to thank the noble Lords who have taken part in the debate this afternoon.
It was begun by my noble and learned friend Lord Pethick-Lawrence. I am bound to say that I have always had for him, if he will allow me to say so, a peculiar affection and regard. I have watched him come into the Inner Temple Hall for very many years, and when I have looked at him I have thought of the very notable part he has played in the past in events now far removed, but which were notable events in the history of freedom. I have always thought of him as the voice of freedom, and it was good to hear him this afternoon say in respect of this Bill that one of the elements was that he did not wish to see the freedom of the writer restricted. I was very grateful to him for that.
I do not propose to deal with the various arguments which have been raised. I am bound to say I had a wild feeling of regret that it is not possible to appear as counsel and speak to the jury about the meaning of Clause 4 in the first case brought before the courts. I think that the judges who will instruct juries on that matter will find that subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 4 are really a great protection to the author. I was extremely grateful for the speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Brentford, because he gave the experience of the Select Committee, which was very valuable. I must just venture to disagree with this. I agree with the noble Viscount that the strengthening of the law with regard to pornography is of first importance, but I believe that the provisions which protect the author and literature are of equally great importance. For my own part, I believe that a jury will have to see to both these matters.
My noble and learned friend Lord Denning was speaking about removing the essence of Clause 4 into the context of the definition of the Bill, but we have to remember that the people who will finally decide on an indictment are those described by Professor Dicey as "twelve shopkeepers." As he said, freedom of speech in this country is merely the right to say that which twelve shopkeepers think it expedient should be said. I think

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that under this Bill, with expert evidence on which it will be possible for a judge to instruct a jury, there is a valuable defence for the author. If I may be allowed to say so, I think that the illustration which the noble and learned Viscount gave from Scottish satiric poetry was extremely apt. Our own poetry, running back for many centuries, especially that of poets like Charles Cotton, Rochester and Herrick, might all have been included in the ban unless there is a certain width and toleration in viewing it.
In the case of a book that contains passages to which certain people take objection, under Clause 4 there must be considered the public good. The noble and learned Viscount quoted Mr. Justice Stephen. For many years that passage from Stephen has been quoted in the books. There is the case, which was tried at the Old Bailey in 1932 before the Recorder of London, in which an eccentric old man, who went about the streets of London in purple robes pretending to be a Polish king, handed a manuscript poem to a printer. The printer most faithlessly took it to the police and this wretched man was taken to the Old Bailey and was given what I regard as a savage sentence of six months' imprisonment. The Recorder of that time told the jury that it was the law of England that a defence of public good could be considered by them. Sir Chartres Biron in the case of The Well of Loneliness recorded it, and in the great case of Hicklin the judgment of Mr. Justice Blackburn. which followed that of Chief Justice Cockburn, emphasised the defence of public good. He took the example of the poems of Dryden and said clearly that Dryden's poems were such that it would not be proper that they should ever form the subject of a prosecution. Therefore, this defence of public good, which exists in most European countries and in the Dominions and Commonwealth as a matter of statutory law, would be of great service.
In the case of a man who publishes a book in which there are passages to which objection is taken, an expert witness in the literary or artistic field will be able to testify and say that it was essential to the author's purpose that these things should be written; that he could not depict the flow of life and the complexity of human behaviour without them, and
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so on. I think that that is a very valuable thing to do. I may just say also, with regard to the speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Brentford, that when those two distinguished men gave evidence before the Select Committee—I do not know why they should not be named: Mr. Eliot and the author of A Passage to India, Mr. E. M. Forster—and were questioned, I think that they were merely being modest and saying, as anybody else might say in cross-examination, that they were not sure they were the persons to answer questions of that kind; but I think that if they went into a witness box as expert witnesses they would show a very different attitude. However, there it is. I am perfectly content to feel that they might comfort-. ably go before a jury.
I should like to mention the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, because I am grateful to him for stressing that this Bill is a compromise one. Apart from the Common Law and the Statutes I have mentioned, there are ten Statutes on the Book dealing with obscenity—the Vagrancy Act, the Customs Act, the Post Office Act, the Indecent Advertisements Act and quite a number of Private Acts and private by-laws. Some of your Lord ships may have thought that this Bill ought to have been consolidated and codified the law on obscenity. Just to illustrate what a compromise Bill this is, I may say that when it was first introduced in another place in 1955 it was a codifying Bill containing all these things, but they were withdrawn on the advice that the procedure of a Private Member's Bill was not appropriate for a codifying or consolidating measure.
There is another point which the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, made and which I should like to emphasise. I did not quite care to say it myself in opening though I should like to say it now. He made the valuable statement that, if possible, the Bill should not be interfered with too much. It is a compromise, and the experience of life is that when, having reconciled diverse views, you start to loosen a compromise in one direction, it begins to be loosened in another direction also. Finally, with regard to the point of attempting a definition of publication to which the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor referred, I quite see the validity and strength of the

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arguments he employed, but I would repeat what I said some little time ago: that I do not anticipate for one moment that any difficulty will arise upon that head. I hope that this Bill, with the Amendment with regard to publication, may proceed on its way as an agreed measure. I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate and to all your Lordships for your patience and consideration.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MOCK AUCTIONS BILL [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).

FIRE SERVICES BILL [H.L.]
5.10 p.m.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I rise to move the Second Reading of this Bill. As your Lordships will see from the explanatory memorandum, the purpose of the Bill is to amend the Fire Services Act, 1947, in certain particulars. The administration of the public fire service in this country depends mainly upon the provisions of that Act. We are all aware of the magnificent work done by that Service, first under local authority control and then during the years of war, as the National Fire Service. The 1947 Act was the instrument by which the National Fire Service was returned, in accordance with a pledge given by the war-time Government, to local authority control, but with a substantially new administrative framework.
The arrangements for the administration of the Service which were introduced by the Act of 1947 have generally worked well. Throughout the country, the provision of fire cover has been placed upon a proper footing. Equipment has been standardised and modernised; training facilities have been provided for all grades of the service, and fire authorities have made notable progress in the new field of fire prevention. It is only after full consideration that the Government have decided to propose changes in the
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administration of the Service, in the light of the cessation of the specific Exchequer grant of 25 per cent. which has been paid since 1947, and the introduction under the Local Government Act, 1958, and the corresponding Scottish Act, of the new financial arrangements by which the Fire Service has become one of the services aided by the general grant.
In those circumstances, the Government have thought it right to review the central controls over the Fire Service embodied in the 1947 Act, with the aim of bringing about a measure of relaxation, while at the same time ensuring that key controls, necessary for the maintenance of adequate standards of efficiency, would remain in the hands of the central Government. The results of this review are embodied in the Bill before your Lordships. The changes proposed have been fully discussed both with the local authority associations representing the fire authorities and with the service associations which represent the members of fire brigades. The Central Fire Brigades Advisory Councils. upon which both kinds of association are represented, have also had an opportunity of examining the main changes proposed.
The most important change effected by the Bill is that dealt with in Clause 5—the surrender of the statutory powers conferred on the Secretary of State by the Act of 1947 with regard to the determination of pay and other conditions of service in fire brigades. At present, when recommendations relating, for example, to pay are made by one of the two National Joint Councils for Local Authorities' Fire Brigades (upon which fire authorities and members of fire brigades are represented) they require the approval of the Secretary of State before they can become effective, and the Secretary of State has also power to initiate changes in conditions of service. The Government have reviewed these powers in the light of the introduction of the general grant, and they have come to the conclusion that ministerial intervention would no longer be justifiable in this field, and that the determination of conditions of service should in future rest with the National Joint Councils for Local Authorities' Fire Brigades. The necessary amendments to effect this decision are contained in Clause 5; and perhaps I should add that, under the

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clause, the present arrangements will continue in force so far as concerns matters of discipline.
If I may here interpose a personal recollection, I am almost certain that this proposal was put strongly to me when I was Home Secretary and in charge of the fire brigades, and as that must be at least five years ago, since I have had the honour of being in your Lordships' House for nearly five years, your Lordships will see that this is not something which the Government are foisting on the associations but something which the associations have long desired. Other relaxations of central control are effected by Clauses 1 to 4 and by Clauses 6 and 7 of the Bill.
Clause 1 contains several alterations of this kind, and it may be appropriate to make it clear that the provision which is made in paragraph (a) of Clause 1 for the repeal of the provision in the 1947 Act which enables the Secretary of State to prescribe standards of efficiency is not inconsistent with what I have said. If I may put it shortly, at the moment there are two parallel powers, one under the Fire Services Act, 1947, and another under the Local Government Act, 1958, which give these powers to the Secretary of State, and we felt that he would be just as well off if he bad the powers under one Act of Parliament and that the matter should be tidied up. In the light of the general principle that fire authorities should have a wider discretion as to the best method of implementing their responsibilities, it is not proposed to retain the requirement that county councils should establish fire brigade committees and that county district councils should be represented on them.
Clause 2 removes the power of the Secretary of State to modify a reinforcement scheme when it is notified to him. These reinforcement schemes are arrangements between authorities for obtaining in emergency reinforcements from neighbouring authorities. Clause 3 dispenses with the need for the Secretary of State's approval for the appointment by fire authorities of a joint committee under Section 91 of the Local Government Act, 1933. Clause 4 removes the present requirement that fire authorities have to obtain approval to arrangements for the discharge of their functions by another fire authority. These arrangements, made
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under Section 12 of the 1947 Act, are appropriate where it is necessary in the interests of speedy attendance and of general efficiency that a fire authority should take over the responsibility for providing fire cover in all or part of its neighbour's area. Much use has been made of these arrangements and a network of them extends round the borders of many fire authorities' areas. Because of the importance, from the point of view of national fire cover, of ensuring that the arrangements are made efficiently, it is proposed in Clause 4 that the Secretary of State should have power to intervene and make or alter an arrangement if it is considered necessary for efficiency that he should do so.
Clause 5 I have dealt with. Clause 6 limits the powers of the Secretary of State with regard to appointments and promotions in the Fire Service. Broadly speaking. for ranks below that of chief fire officer the Secretary of State will cease to have power to regulate the procedure for promotions and appointments, but he will keep the power to prescribe qualifications. As regards chief fire officers, the Secretary of State does not propose to alter the existing arrangements, under which he has power to require that his approval should be obtained to the appointment of chief fire officers. My right honourable friends the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Scotland have given careful consideration to the question of whether this particular control should be retained, and the Home Secretary has had the advantage of hearing the views of representatives of the associations representing fire authorities., The Government feel that in a disciplined operational service, like the Fire Service, where the quality of the leaders is as important as the content of ministerial regulations, it is vital to the operation of the service in peace, and it could be equally vital in war, that every possible care should be taken to secure the appointment of the right man as chief fire officer; and accordingly it is proposed that this power should be retained.
Clause 7 modifies and reduces the scope of the powers of the Secretary of State with regard to fire brigade establishments, and is a good example of how the Bill will operate. At present a fire authority can make no change in the establishment of fire stations, appliances and men, without the approval of the Minister. This

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has resulted in an extremely detailed control which it is proposed to relax to a considerable extent. It will be left to fire authorities to reach their own decisions about increases in establishments. That is with regard to increases. Certain kinds of reduction in establishments will, however, still require ministerial approval, and the Secretary of State will retain power to make an establishment scheme himself if the existing one appears to be unsatisfactory from the point of view of efficiency. These are the relaxations which are proposed.
Your Lordships may like to consider for a moment what matters are left with the central authority. I have mentioned some of them, and I should like to remind your Lordships that in particular, even after all the relaxations, it would not be possible for any fire authority—should such authority wish to do so—in its discretion, to whittle away the establishment, and so to reduce the number of firemen and appliances below the level considered necessary by my right honourable friend for the efficient working of the brigade. It does not seem unreasonable that the Central Government should act as a long-stop in this matter, and I suggest that that is a reasonable retention.
I will not go through the other matters in detail, but I will point out one or two. The Secretary of State will continue to have power to make regulations providing for standards of training and equipment, and for uniformity in fire hydrants. That is obviously a sensible and important matter for the central authority to be able to do. Secondly, he will have power to hold inquiries into the manner in which fire authorities are performing their functions under the Act; and thirdly, he will retain power to maintain the Fire Service Inspectorate. I am sure that everyone who has had anything to do with the Fire Service would want that, because it has been not only very good but very helpful. Lastly, under the Acts of 1958 (subject, of course, to approval by the House of Commons), the Secretary of State will have power to reduce the general grant payable to a fire authority if he is satisfied that the authority has failed to achieve or maintain reasonable standards. That, of course, can be done only with the
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approval of the House of Commons as a matter affecting the financial issue of the grant.
I do not think I need deal with the other provisions; for the most part they are designed to make minor improvements in the working of the existing pensions scheme which have been shown to be desirable by the experience gained in the last ten years. If any of your Lordships has any pension points, if between now and the Committee stage he will be good enough to let me know, I will give detailed answers by letter, and of course I will deal on the Committee stage with any questions which are raised. I hope I can fairly claim that a just balance is struck in the Bill between the admitted need under the new financial arrangements to allow fire authorities greater freedom in running their brigades, and the equally important need for the Central Government to retain a close interest in the efficient working of the Fire Service upon which the lives and belongings of any of us may depend.
My Lords, this is a great Service. When I was in charge of it about seven years ago, I went to the Fire Service College. By one of those curious coincidences of history which make such a fascinating background to government in this country, that was situated in the House of Evelyn, the diarist. Evelyn had taken part in the extemporised fire service to deal with the Great Fire of London in 1666. At the end of a competition of the Fire Service, I had to say a few words to the competitors and congratulate them on their work. I got an extract from Evelyn's account of his own work, Along the Strand in 1666. I thought it was going well, but one or two of the firemen who had been through the blitz of London in the last war came up to me afterwards and said, "That is exactly how we felt." It is an extraordinary thing, after nearly 300 years, getting the same feeling about the same place. I quote that only to make your Lordships feel that when I am talking about the greatness of this Service, and how much we owe to it, my remarks are not mere figures of speech: they are my own view, formed after contact and after having the fortunate responsibility for the Service. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
5.27 p.m.
LORD FARINGDON:My Lords, in rising to welcome this Bill, I think I should in all honesty say that had it been introduced into your Lordships' House five years ago I could not have felt an equivalent enthusiasm for it. If I may say so, with the greatest possible respect, I think that the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor rather understated his point. Perhaps that was done of a set purpose, but, as he said, not only is this Bill the result of the introduction of the block grant, but it is also in response to the demands of fire authorities and also with the approval of the Fire Brigades Union. A great deal of negotiation and discussion has gone on, and I think that all the parties concerned are satisfied that the administration of fire services in this country will in fact benefit from this Bill. I say this as a form of tribute to Her Majesty's Government, because this is not, I think, solely a Government Bill—a Conservative Bill, if your Lordships' wish—as would be implied if one took the Lord Chancellor's point that it was only because of the block grant that it had been introduced.
In actual fact, it is on account of the block grant that I have some slight doubts about the merits of the Bill. Personally, I regret that the fire services, unlike the police, were not excluded from the block grant. I think there is as good a case to be made for the exclusion of the fire services as there was for the police. May I put it this way? A well known lady may have a substantial quantity of jewellery stolen from her. That is very distressing to her or to the insurance company, but no great national damage has been done. On the other hand, if a factory like the Jaguar factory catches fire, there is a national loss which affects us all, directly or indirectly. I believe, therefore, that if there is a case for leaving the police outside the block grant—and I think there is—then I believe an equivalent case exists in the case of the fire services. However, that was not to be, and it has been decided to keep the fire services still under the local fire authorities and to have them paid for out of the block grant. Some of us, and I think clearly some of those who took part in the negotiations before or during the preparation of the Bill, had that anxiety very much in mind, and provisions have
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been put into the Bill under which it will be impossible for any local authority to reduce the fire cover which they are giving; that is to say, without the consent, of course, of the Minister.
However, it does occur to me to wonder about one point, and I should be glad if the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor when he comes to reply could solve it for me. It is perfectly clear that without the consent of the Minister no fire authority can reduce their cover. There is, however, as it seems to me, no means of forcing them to accept necessary measures for increasing their fire cover. In November last the Home Office issued a circular to fire authorities requiring them to review their fire cover of manpower in the light of the recommendations accepted by the Minister from his Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council. I would ask the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor what powers the Minister has to force local authorities to accept even these, his recommendations. Because, my Lords, there are many areas in this country where the size of industry is increasing enormously and where the need for fire cover is increasing at the same rate. It is in those areas that additional fire cover will be needed and where local authorities, who will have to find the money out of the block grant, may feel disinclined to spend their money. That, I think, is my major objection to the Bill, or my major, if not criticism, at least dubiety.
I have one or two other points that I should like to put to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor; they are perhaps, as he himself suggested, really Committee points, but if I put them now perhaps he will be able to answer them and therefore save me from putting down Amendments at a later stage. There is this question of other duties for firemen. Nobody in the world, least of all the firemen themselves, would not wish to bring help in cases of emergency. On the other hand, it is perfectly clear that firemen should not be called upon to do regularly, under standing arrangements, duties which interfere with their basic duties, which are in the fire services and the fighting of fires. I quote very briefly what was said by the Minister when lie introduced the 1947 Act. He said:
"Frankly what I do desire to protect myself against is having the Fire Brigade used regu

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larly for purposes that might interfere with its work as a Fire Brigade."
The Minister is depriving himself of the power for controlling these particular standing arrangements for the use of firemen. I will admit that it seems to me a very difficult problem. I do not quite see what wording you could put into the clause if you are still going to allow the local authority to take over this power. I would suggest, therefore, that perhaps it is a power which the Minister should retain.
Another small point which I would put to your Lordships is the question of the fire brigade committees. County fire authorities are no longer to be required to set up such committees and therefore will not have as they do at the present time, the necessity of naming to those committees—on which, incidentally, they already have a majority—representatives of local authorities. Most of your Lordships who are interested in this matter will be aware that this provision was put into the 1947 Act to meet the wish of the small authorities, who had control previous to the war, when, frankly, the organisation of fire fighting over the country as a whole was chaotic. It was put in to meet their wish to have their fire brigades back under their own control. This had been promised them when they were originally taken over, and as a result of the war-time experience the local services had been found to be highly unpracticable and undesirable. They were therefore given, as a consolation, representation on the county fire brigades committees.
Although that may have been the reason, in practice it worked out very well, and I would point out to your Lordships just why, in my view at any rate, it did work well and why I think it should be retained. Take, for example, a very large county authority, such as Essex. In Essex there are very substantial boroughs, let us say Ilford. I suggest that representatives of Ilford on the county fire brigade committee would be extremely valuable and, indeed, would have a very important part to play. Therefore I suggest to the Government that it might be desirable to retain the representatives of these authorities on the fire brigade committees.
I was glad to hear the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor
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when he spoke about the retention of the right of appointment or the right to approve appointments of chief fire officers. I have heard criticisms of this particular provision, but I think it would have been most unfortunate had chief officers been put in the same position as other members of fire brigades and had they come solely under the local fire authority, and for this reason: no fire brigade in this country is an independent body. Every fire brigade may, and most of them do at one time or another, require assistance from outside their own area. If a chief officer sends for assistance from a neighbouring brigade he must have the assurance that the officer who comes in charge of that assistance will be a man in whom he can put the reliance that in these very serious emergencies is essential. I therefore welcome the Government's decision to maintain this control over the appointment of chief officers. Obviously control over the other appointments was previously carried to a ridiculous point. I believe it was a fact that the appointment of even a firewoman to work an exchange in the fire station required the Minister's approval.
There is one pension point—and the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor mentioned pension points—which I would ask him to explain. Apparently if any fireman or fire brigade officer is seconded to the Fire Service College or fire school as an instructor, in the event that he suffers an accident during his employment in that college his pension will be payable by the local authority from whom he was seconded. This seems to me to be not wholly fair. His employment at the time of his accident will, I suppose, be by the Minister—the College will still, I think, come directly under the Minister—and his employers will no longer be the local authority. However, that is a point which perhaps the noble and learned Viscount will explain to me. I have no doubt that there is some good reason, but frankly I do not see it.
Finally, I deeply regret that Lord Conesford is not in the House. I had hoped to bespeak his assistance on a grammatical point. I deplore the use of the words "authority" and "council" as plural words; in particular do I deplore the use of the word "authority" as anything but collective. However. that is perhaps a point upon which I

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can hope that the noble Lord will support me when perhaps, remembering practically the only other success I have ever had in your Lordships' House, I may be allowed to carry an Amendment. I think this is a good Bill. It is not a perfect Bill, but probably no Bill ever is. On behalf of my noble friends I am authorised to welcome it.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, I hesitate to find myself in conflict, even on a detail, with my noble friend and with the Government, but I have had a communication from the County Councils Association about the appointment of chief fire officers. I would ask the Lord Chancellor—his helpfulness is well known in this House—whether he will consider again, and perhaps make some further answer at an appropriate time, the reasons which have caused the Home Secretary to override what appears to have been the general desire of the county councils, that this appointment should be, like the others, removed from his control.
5.42 p.m.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I should like to say a word or two in this discussion, as I think I moved the Second Reading of the 1947 Bill, as it was, in your Lordships' House, and I have had a great interest in the Fire Service ever since I served as a deputy regional commissioner during the war. May I remind the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack that I had the pleasure of being present on the occasion at Wootton to which he so charmingly referred in his speech. I do not think I am happy about this Bill. The situation in the Fire Service at the time when the war started was, as the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, has pointed out, completely chaotic. The organisation of the National Fire Service during the war was one of the great features of the war, and I do not think it has ever really received from the public as a whole the appreciation which it deserved. I myself should have preferred to see some sort of National Fire Service retained after the war, rather than the system which was adopted by the Government under the 1947 Act.
While the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor has reassured me in a number of respects in regard to this Bill, I still have a feeling that it is relaxing control rather too much. I entirely
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agree that, granted the set-up which was adopted in 1947, there were a number of ways in which centralised control was perhaps retained in too detailed a manner; but I am not at all sure that the present Bill is not going a little too far. I certainly would not agree with my noble friend Lord Stansgate in wishing to remove the control of the Home Office over chief fire officers. In the emergencies of fire-fighting the chief fire officer is a most important person: he is as important as a General in a great battle in war, and it seems to me that it would be quite wrong to allow local authorities to have complete control over an officer of this importance. After all, the Central Government control the appointment of town clerks and other local authority officers in high places, and I am quite sure that to remove this veto, so to speak, on inappropriate decisions would be a great mistake. Indeed, I should like the central control extended a little further down.
The Fire Service is a disciplined force: it is really like the Armed Forces of the Crown. In dealing with fires, leadership is, of course, the essential element. Leadership depends upon training and discipline and other matters which, in my submission, must be laid down on a national level; and I am a little afraid that in various ways this Bill is going a little too far in devolution. It is a problem of striking a happy medium. Reinforcement arrangements are changed. It may be that the new arrangements under which the Home Secretary retains a good deal of power are adequate, but I can remember the completely chaotic conditions which occurred in the North West Region during the great bombing raids on Manchester and Liverpool because there were no co-ordinating arrangements in existence at the time. When the Manchester fire brigade reached Stockport it could not connect its appliances to the local water mains because the pipes were all of a different calibre, and we had to spend the rest of the war putting matters of that kind right.
As I have said, I am not at all sure that this measure does not go a little too far in relaxing the very important central control which was established in the vital national interest at that time. But I do not propose to vote against the

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Bill. I have no doubt that on the whole it is a useful measure.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, could the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor tell us whether, apart from Clause 11, this Bill applies to Scotland?
5.47 p.m.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS:My Lords, I had not intended to intervene, and I am sorry to put forward a different view from that put forward by my noble friend Lord Chorley, who has had practical experience of the difficulties which existed in the recent past—not, as I understand it, because of the Home Secretary's final control which my noble friend desires to retain, but because there was no co-ordination between the different fire brigades of different local authorities. It does not seem to me that the question of whether or not the Home Secretary controls or would have to approve an appointment has anything to do with the co-ordination between different authorities. However I may he wrong in that.
The other point that I wish to make is this. I gather that my noble friend Lord Stansgate has had a communication from the County Councils Association. I have had a similar communication from the Association of Municipal Corporations, who take the same view—namely, that they regret that the Home Secretary has decided to retain the power whereby he has to approve the appointment of chief fire officers by fire authorities. They also raise the question of pensions. The Association of Municipal Corporations are of the opinion that Clause 10 might well work to the considerable disadvantage of an individual fire authority if that authority were obliged to pay the cost of a pension which a fireman might be able to claim because he was injured during his period of seconding as an instructor at a training school. It would appear somewhat unreasonable that the fire authority should have to pay that cost when the injured employee was not working for them. I put forward those views as being the views of the Association of Municipal Corporations, and I hope that they will have your Lordships' consideration.
5.49 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, if I may deal first with the various points made by the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, I would begin by congratulating him on the force and clarity with which he made them. Neither his force nor his clarity has declined since we were both members of a certain club at Oxford. With my deep regard for his political future I feel that, as a friend,should not disclose the name of the club.
The first point that he had in mind was the difficulty about fire cover, when there was a question of extending the provision, and he suggested that in providing for central control of decreases only the Bill would not effectively ensure that the fire cover is adequate where here has been building development or where the fire risk has increased to the point where more men and appliances should be provided. We think that the power of the Secretary of State to intervene and make a scheme if, unfortunately, the existing scheme in force is inadequate, in conjunction with the regular inspections by inspectors of the Fire Services (to whom I will return) will provide a sufficient safeguard. That is under subsection (5) of the clause. If the noble Lord has any further worries about the matter, or any occur to him between this and the next stage of the Bill, I shall be very pleased to look into them. But that was the consideration, and that would also apply if there were a review of the fire cover in a few years' time. There would be, in the background, the power of the Secretary of State to make an establishment scheme if, unfortunately, the scheme in force required that, or if, for example, a fire authority showed no signs of increasing their establishment where an increase was needed. That is the answer we have.
On the second point, raised by the same noble Lord, which, as I understood it, was concerned with the use of brigades for other purposes, that again is a matter which has received a great deal of attention from everyone concerned with this problem. We did anticipate that objection might be raised to the proposal that the requirement should be done away with, on the ground that it has acted as a check to the use of brigades for other work which might interfere with their

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primary function. But representatives of the fire authorities on the Central Fire Brigades Advisory Council for England and Wales assured the Fire Brigades Union that the power to use brigades for other than normal fire-fighting purposes would be reasonably exercised; and while I have to accept that in future there would be nothing in the Statute to prevent an individual fire authority from using a brigade on work which might be criticised as inappropriate, the experience of the Home Office (and they have given me specific information on this point, which I foresaw would be raised) is that the danger involved is so small that for the Secretary of State to retain power to approve standing arrangements would be quite contrary to the general principles under which fire authorities have been given wider freedom to administer their own brigades. If a particular fire authority were to use its brigade for a disputed purpose that would be a matter for local negotiation.
The third point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, was with regard to committees of county district councils. It is worth remembering that county councils have now had eleven years' experience of the administration of fire brigades, and after those eleven years there is no longer a strong case for requiring participation of county district councils in the work of administration. Moreover, under the provisions of the First Schedule to the old Act—perhaps the noble Lord will look at that—a county council is required to consult the councils of all county districts about making or amending an establishment scheme. That may often be extremely irksome in practice. For example, it is necessary for a county council to inform all district councils of even trivial amendments to an establishment scheme, and to consider their replies. If the noble Lord will consider that he will see that there is something in the point.
The position was that representatives of Departments and local authorities on the Working Party which was set up by one of my right honourable friends to consider the relaxation of Government controls over local authority functions expressed the view that the statutory requirements in relation to certain committees, including the fire brigades committee, should be removed in order to
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give local authorities greater freedom to decide the most suitable arrangements for the administration of their service. That is why the repeal has taken place. I simply ask the noble Lord to consider these points, and I think it is right that he should know that they were considered, not only in the drafting of the Bill but in the preliminary negotiations.
The fourth point about which the noble Lord asked was in relation to the position of officers seconded to the Fire Service College. As I understand the matter, in the circumstances which he described the Home Office would pay a sum representing the employer's contribution which takes into account the possibility that a special pension ought to be paid as a result of injury. But I should like to tell the noble Lord that this matter is still under discussion between the Home Office and the local authority associations, and there are some points which are unresolved. If I am in a position to give the noble Lord any further information I will certainly write to him about it; but there are these outstanding points.
I come now to the point raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, under. written (if I may put it in that way) by the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds. Perhaps I might marshal the arguments which seemed good to us. I think they can be put in this way: that the position of a chief fire officer can be distinguished from that of other chief officers whose work has to do with the public safety, because he is responsible for a disciplined operational service which, as I said, is vital to the community in peace and would also be vital in war. On this point I feel that it is relevant that it was previously publicly announced that the Fire Service would be re-nationalised if there was war. That has been made clear. Again there is no Party politics, so far as that is concerned. I cannot even remember whether it was under myself or Mr. Chuter Ede (though I believe it was under Mr. Chuter Ede) that that announcement was made. There is no recognised prefessional qualification for the post of chief fire officer. This is not a case where one can say that he must have a certain qualification.
As to the position of the Home Office, it has, of course, a wide experience of the

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Fire Service and a knowledge of the individuals in it, which is acquired mainly through the Fire Service Inspectorate, as I mentioned, and it is in an especially good position to advise on particular appointments; and if the approval of the Secretary of State is not required there is no guarantee that a fire authority will consult the Secretary of State or take his advice if they do consult him. That is the position of the power which establishes the locus of the Secretary of State as a giver of advice. One never wants to drive analogies too far, but there is a certain analogy between the offices of chief fire officer and chief constable. A chief constable is in a different position because, as noble Lords are aware, chief constables are not servants of the local authority, but there are similar considerations. The sort of point which arises—and, again, this is one of the practical problems of central Government and has nothing to do with who happens to be holding the position of Home Secretary at the moment—is that it is necessary to consider whether a good candidate for the position of chief fire officer from another brigade should be preferred to the existing deputy chief officer, who may have strong local support. That is a practical problem which arises.
Now I should like to tell your Lordships about the position as it happens and howith is actually dealt with. There has been no case so far when the Secretary of State has found it necessary to make formal use of his power to reject the choice of a fire authority—that is, under Mr. Chuter Ede, myself, Lord Tenhy or Mr. Butler. There has been no case at all, although it has been indicated to individual authorities on the basis of the short list that a particular individual would not be regarded as suitable; and the fact that the power exists has undoubtedly influenced fire authorities in taking Home Office advice before an appointment is made. Local authorities have accordingly had no ground for complaining that their freedom has been infringed in practice. But the present system of informal prior consultation with this power of approval in the background has worked, and it has worked smoothly and it has worked well. So both from the point of view of theory—in theory we believe the appointment, with the potentialities, is so important that it
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should be a matter of central Government approval—and from that of practice, the system has worked smoothly and it has never been necessary to use the power. I have tried to give an answer to the noble and gallant Viscount. He asked me to develop the point. If there are any further considerations that occur to him, of course I shall be pleased to deal with them.
VISCOUNT STANSGATE: My Lords, not for the first time I am deeply grateful for the courteous and painstaking attention that was given to the point.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, that, I hope, covers the point of the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds. I have tried to cover the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, too. On the general matter, there is obviously room for difference of opinion, as has been shown to-day. I think it is one of the problems of administration to keep the balance between local authority interests and, at the same time, the assurance on the part of the central Government that the work is being well done and the money is being well spent. I have always hoped that both sides would look at the relationship as a real partnership. I believe that in most cases they do. I myself have always found that the local authority association were most helpful and reasonable and appreciative of my side of the problem; and although it is only healthful that there should be different views as to where the balance should be, it is interesting, and again healthy, that it is not a Party matter that there are different views—I am not over emphasising them, but there are differences of view between the noble Lords, Lord Faringdon and Lord Chorley. We might equally get a difference of view between myself and some of my noble friends. But I think that, on the whole, the partnership between central Government and local authorities has worked extremely well in this country and I hope that this Bill will continue to improve the work.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS:My Lords—
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I apologise to the noble Viscount. I made a note of his point, but on another piece of paper. I am afraid that he is not right in his idea. If you look at the arrangement of clauses, you will see that

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the only mention of Scotland in the arrangement of clauses is, he said, in Clause 11. But, again, one of the interesting features of government in this country is the office of Secretary of State. There is only one Secretary of State in theory; those holding the office are all joint holders of the same office (I think that the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, will agree with me in this matter), and so the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Scotland are referred to in the Bill as "the Secretary of State." But in all of the points in which I indicated that there were relaxations, the Secretary of State for Scotland will, I think, make corresponding relaxations with corresponding provisions. As the noble Viscount is well aware, there are the three local authority associations in Scotland, and they have been consulted in the matter. I hope that that satisfies him on his point. I cannot say how sorry I am that I should have forgotten it, but I think the noble Viscount will appreciate the difficulty of making notes as one goes along.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords,I am most grateful to the noble and learned Viscount the Lord Chancellor.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MILFORD HAVEN (TIDAL BARRAGE) BILL [H.L.]
The Queen's consent signified, and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
  USE OF DANGEROUS DRUGS IN AGRICULTURE
  USE OF DANGEROUS DRUGS IN AGRICULTURE